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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: karlhenning on April 11, 2007, 10:12:22 AM

Title: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on April 11, 2007, 10:12:22 AM
Listened to The Rose Lake the other evening, and was entranced.

Then The Vision of St Augustine started, and I couldn't listen on.  I suspect it was just a matter of being caught up in the spirit of the first piece.  I'll try Auggie again later

Now giving the Fantasia concertante on a Theme of Corelli a spin at long last.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/19/198422.JPG)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on April 11, 2007, 10:37:12 AM
The Evening Canticles struck me as a little odd.  Technically within the Anglican tradition -- but a little odd  8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: val on April 12, 2007, 01:44:22 AM
My favorite work of Tippett is the 3rd Symphony.

But the oratorio "A child of our time" is a very strong work, although, as always in Tippett it seems very difficult to understand the message he wants to deliver. The same regarding the opera The Midsummer Marriage, with beautiful music, but with a libretto not easy to follow.
I want to listen again his opera King Priam. I heard it many years ago and liked it much.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Maciek on April 12, 2007, 02:02:42 AM
Nice thread title, Karl! 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2007, 04:09:15 AM
Quote from: val on April 12, 2007, 01:44:22 AM
But the oratorio "A child of our time" is a very strong work, although, as always in Tippett it seems very difficult to understand the message he wants to deliver.

Colin Davis conducted this with the BSO not long ago.  I regret missing that, for it might well have illuminated the piece for me — but the BSO is programming such terrific seasons, I can't possibly attend all the concerts I might wish!

— Great 'problem' to have, of course!  ;)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Susan de Visne on April 12, 2007, 05:02:32 AM
Quote from: val on April 12, 2007, 01:44:22 AM


But the oratorio "A child of our time" is a very strong work, although, as always in Tippett it seems very difficult to understand the message he wants to deliver.

The message is very clear, I'd have thought - it's that war and violence are disastrous and to be lamented (Tippett was a pacifist). It's very powerful, though a little awkwardly written for voices. One of the most moving occasions of my life was singing in A Child of Our Time in Germany, with Tippett in the audience - and in the lift (elevator to you Americans) in the hotel afterwards! He was very old by then, almost blind, but extremely amiable.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Thom on April 12, 2007, 10:15:24 AM
My favourites are the Fantasy on a theme of Corelli and the magnificent Concerto for Double String Orchestra. Surely these rank among the best of English (and even beyond perhaps) string music?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: knight66 on April 12, 2007, 06:00:59 PM
I sang Child of Our Time conducted by Tippet. He was fairly old, but retained the spry aged public schoolboy demenor. However, at one point he suddenly took time out in the performance. I instantly had sweat come out on the back of my knees. The leader shot up his bow, we followed him and Tippet joined us.

Despite all that he was inspiring to sing for.

Mike
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2007, 04:32:03 AM
Quote from: XXXPawn on April 12, 2007, 10:15:24 AM
My favourites are the Fantasy on a theme of Corelli and the magnificent Concerto for Double String Orchestra. Surely these rank among the best of English (and even beyond perhaps) string music?

They are very fine;  but then, English music is particularly rich with a wonderful string orchestra literature.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mark G. Simon on April 13, 2007, 05:43:51 AM
The Vision of St. Augustine can be a tough nut to crack. I can't say I totally know what he was getting at. But the instrumental interlude at the end of Part I with the interjections of piano and xylophone is always a delight.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2007, 05:46:25 AM
I've got to go back to it on its own account, Mark.  I think it was just being such a different thing to The Rose Lake — in itself, a good thing, such variety, of course — and it cuing up when I was still digesting the resonance of the ballet.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: tjguitar on May 20, 2007, 08:42:54 PM
Ive been listening to this double decca Tippet over the weekend:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TQ9GEKKRL._AA240_.jpg)

Interesting composer.  Don't know if I'll pick up anytihng else, as this seems to have most of the 'essential works', not bad though, not bad at all...think the concerto for double string orchestra is my favorite, but I like pretty much everything except byzantium and dance, clarion air.  Anyone know the instrumentation of the 'double string' concerto?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: springrite on May 20, 2007, 08:55:53 PM
Child of Our Time is the closest thing we have in our time to Bach's St. Mathew Passion, and  the use of negro spirituals is very similar to Bach's use of German Church Chorales, music that much of the audience already know, thus underlining the meaning of the piece (in this case, the carnage of war, repression, etc.) more poiniently than anything "original" could have done. It is undoubtedly Tippett's greatest work, and will be the one piece he'd be remembered for in posterity.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 21, 2007, 02:43:03 AM
Quote from: tjguitar on May 20, 2007, 08:42:54 PM
Anyone know the instrumentation of the 'double string' concerto?

Two string orchestras! I'll check to see if Tippett specifies numbers in the score when I get home.

Been on my annual Tippett binge recently myself. I adore his music above all because it is so human and humane - the kind of music which wears its imperfections without shame, as a kind of badge of its humanity. Tippett is one of the few contemporary composers (generally a pretty cagey breed) whose errors of judgement are really pretty blatant (at least they are generally agreed to be mistakes by most critics and are audible to most listeners as mistakes often aren't) - but in a sense that means that they really don't matter, they are part of the overall 'meaning' of the piece itself. In general I prefer music 'warts and all' anyway, which is [part of] why I love Janacek and also why I love Tippett.

Tippett is a big name, a truly major figure, generous and brave in his ideas and in his music. The pieces I return to, over and over, are the Triple Concerto and its contemporary the 4th String Quartet, the Piano Concerto and its contemporary The Midsummer Marriage, and the afore mentioned Double Concerto; a minor piece I want to recommend because it is great fun is the Sonata for Four Horns.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Hector on May 21, 2007, 06:38:38 AM
Renewing my acquaintance with this composer during his centenary year was not a happy one.

The 3rd symphony with its bolt-from-the-blue quotation from Beethoven's 9th (the composer admired Beethoven) just showed up the paucity of the previous music and the "spirituals," with words from the composer, are so unconvincing.

The 4th, bedevilled with a studio recording from Solti, is more promising, particularly in the composer's own performance (he, like Britten, was a great conductor of his own music) but I doubt if many would want to hear it all that often.

It is the Corelli Fantasia that seems set to last, one of many in a long line of fine 20th century works for full string band.

Sad, but he sounds rather dated.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 06:40:47 AM
Quote from: Hector on May 21, 2007, 06:38:38 AM
It is the Corelli Fantasia that seems set to last, one of many in a long line of fine 20th century works for full string band.

Yes, I think this is especially A Keeper!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: pjme on May 22, 2007, 02:19:19 AM
Tippett IS a difficult composer - and thank God that we have difficult composers- there is -at least - substance that sets my thoughts going. His poetry may be not as refined as -say Wislawa Szymborska's - but Tippett -for me - is a deep and truly humanitarian .

"As I drew nurture from my mother's breast,
I drank in sorrow with her milk

As I stood upright on my fathrer's knee
I drank in sorrow with his kiss

Blood of their blood
Bone of their bone
What then is me that was not them?


....

i have a dream
That my strong hand shall grip the cruel
That my strong mouth will kiss the fearful
that my strong arms shall lift the lame
And on my giant legs we'll whirl our way
Over the visionary earth
In mutual celebration.

(from Symphony nr 3)

In 1975 Tippett was in Belgium for the premiere of his third symphony and , later, I bought "Moving into aquarius".(Paladin books 1959-1974)
On page 158 Tippett writes about the verses :

"...But, as Colin Davis pointed out when he first read the verses, the true exemplar is Schiller's contemporary, Blake. these are songs of innocence and experience : two by two. They pose the same fundamental, unanswerable questions about the universe and man's destiny, though their language cannot emulate Blake's incomparable verse"

And : " What is 'out-of-date ' in Schiller's concept of joy is any romantic notion of its universality and inevitability. All that has happened since, in aid of various political utopias, has but deepened the disillusion. Yet if now is our Season in Hell, then when we occasionally celebrate, as we must and if we can , we do so from a deeper need and with a sharper pang".

Tippett's oeuvre is uneven, of course - but it is a fascinating comment on our world - through his imagination.



Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on May 22, 2007, 03:35:13 AM
Though I am still getting better acquainted with more of his work (and so I may alter this opinion later), my impression is that he is rather uneven.  But of course, the important fact is that from such an uneven composer, some great work has been brought into the world.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mark G. Simon on May 22, 2007, 05:14:43 AM
Quote"...though their language cannot emulate Blake's incomparable verse"

That's for sure. I really love the 3rd symphony, in spite of the text. I count myself as a big admirer of Tippett, but I have to admit that his output is uneven, and the lowest points in his output are often due to the fact that he's saddled himself to an impossible text of his own devising.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Hector on May 22, 2007, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2007, 03:35:13 AM
Though I am still getting better acquainted with more of his work (and so I may alter this opinion later), my impression is that he is rather uneven.  But of course, the important fact is that from such an uneven composer, some great work has been brought into the world.

You are spot on.

Unfortunately, it might be the "death" of him.

Also, he had this hippie-dippie air about him that may have worked in the sixties and seventies but palled in the eighties and nineties.

Having said that, his obvious humanity may sustain interest in his oeuvre.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: vandermolen on May 23, 2007, 03:40:25 AM
One of my work colleagues, as a boy, did gardening for Tippet. One day Tippet found him asleep in a wheelbarrow. ;D

My favourite works are the Concerto for Double String Orchestra, Corelli Variations and Symphony 1. Don't know the Rose Lake.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on June 27, 2007, 06:55:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2007, 03:40:25 AM
One of my work colleagues, as a boy, did gardening for Tippet. One day Tippet found him asleep in a wheelbarrow. ;D

Great story!

QuoteMy favourite works are the Concerto for Double String Orchestra, Corelli Variations and Symphony 1. Don't know the Rose Lake.

I wonder how Harry is getting on with the symphonies . . . ?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on January 26, 2008, 04:53:02 PM
I've been listening to The Vision of Saint Augustine a few times in the last month or so, and I'm becoming very fond of this work. Yes, it's a bit crazy, but I think the craziness in it is very appropriate to the material, and I find it very beguiling.

The Rose Lake is just gorgeous stuff: I heard the premiere on Radio 3 and it was the first Tippett work that spoke to me. It's still a favourite, though I think I like Hickox's recent recording better than Sir Colin Davis' original one.

By the way, was the joke in the topic title intentional or not?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: paulb on January 26, 2008, 04:56:37 PM
Quote from: edward on January 26, 2008, 04:53:02 PM


By the way, was the joke in the topic title intentional or not?
not sure, but as slips of the tongue go, the title sure fits the music.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on June 06, 2009, 11:37:14 AM
It's been years since I had Tippett's SQs 1-4 by the Britten Qrt. on Collins. I seem to remember the first three having an exhuberant, srightly, spiky neo-classicism. However, in my great British SQ Purge of '98, only V-W's No.2 survived.

I have since enjoyed Tippett's No.4 and Britten's No.3 with the Lindsays/ASV, a great testament to these composers' late works.

So I surprised myself by picking up the Lindsay's orginal London cd of SQs 1-3... for only $2.99!!! What a deal!!!

Starting with No.2 first, I was met with some of the freshest inspiration I've heard in a while. The overwhelming sense of madrigals permeates this mvmt., and even the whole SQ exudes this atmosphere of neo-classic madrigalism. I seem to barely recall this from before, but No.2 comes up an unqualified success to my ears, still a bit overdone, perhaps, but in a fun way. The melodic appeal is just too much for me not to celebrate. The first seconds of the first mvmt. are some of the most expectant I've heard, and the rest of the mvmt. beautifully delivers on this promise of fifths and fourths.

No.1 doesn't have the immediate appeal of No.2, but Tippett's super fussy counterpoint is a joy to me. Mvmts. 2-3 are Tippett's first real music, for which he wrote a new first mvmt. much later. The slow mvmt in particular, has a classic British neo-classicism I really like.

No.3 also comes from the 40s, and as it stands, these 3 SQs do form a mini-cycle, perfectly intergrated one with another (No.1/3mvmts, No.2/4mvmts., No.3/5mvmts.). No.3 has an openly stated Bartok influence, though the music is Tippett's own.

It amazes me that so many composers during this time hit on so many of the same ideas, but each one was allowed their own voice (Tippett, Pijper, Maconchy, Blacher, etc.).

This Lindsay recording from 1975 is one of the coziest things I've heard lately. The playing and sound form to give a very unique aural experience. It just sounds special, and the music has this certain madrigal quality that makes it fairly unique in such crowded company ('30s-'40s). And, as far as comparing them to Britten's similar achievement, I am at a loss, but suffice to say that Tippett's 3 SQs are quite distinct, and make quite a nice self contained unit.

A very special cd.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: The new erato on June 06, 2009, 11:39:24 AM
The first mvt  from the second Qt is a particular favorite of mine as well, and I've sung its praises elsewhere on the board.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: vandermolen on June 07, 2009, 01:45:08 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 11, 2007, 10:12:22 AM
Listened to The Rose Lake the other evening, and was entranced.

Then The Vision of St Augustine started, and I couldn't listen on.  I suspect it was just a matter of being caught up in the spirit of the first piece.  I'll try Auggie again later

Now giving the Fantasia concertante on a Theme of Corelli a spin at long last.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/19/198422.JPG)

Corelli Fantasia is lovely. Concerto for Double String Orchestra and Symphony No 1 are my favourite works + the end of A Child of Our Time, which is very moving.  His mother lived locally in East Sussex.  One of my former colleagues, as a youn man, did some gardening for her. One day Tippet found him asleep in a wheelbarrow  ;D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 07:10:39 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 07, 2009, 01:45:08 AM
Corelli Fantasia is lovely. Concerto for Double String Orchestra and Symphony No 1 are my favourite works + the end of A Child of Our Time, which is very moving.

Haven't heard the First Symphony at all, yet. (Agreed, of course, on the merits of the Concerto for Double String Orchestra.)  I haven't yet girded my loins to try A Child of Our Time.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on October 05, 2010, 06:49:11 AM
I've been lucky enough to pick up these two Tippett sets very cheaply recently:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TXJ9OqhAL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21HMCDHD5TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I think the Hickox set becomes my default recommendation for the symphonies. I've not heard the First yet on this set, but the Fourth is far better than Solti's awful studio recording, and--hallelujah--the finale of the Third is almost convincing here (I found it the letdown in the Davis recording, my first experience of the work, where I loved everything about the work right up to the arrival of the Schreckenfanfare). I think I'd still prefer Davis in the Second, but Hickox isn't far behind...of course, the composer's own coupling of the Second and Fourth is also very competitive.

The addition of the somewhat deranged suite from the otherwise unrecorded New Year is a sizeable bonus too.


The Nimbus set contains a more eclectic mix--though how can eclecticism not be appropriate in Tippett's case--including such rarities as the charming Crown of the Year and the sonata The Blue Guitar. I don't think it's quite as essential (excluding the concertos, which most definitely are essential Tippett) but there's lots of really enjoyable bits'n'pieces thrown in.


Overall, though, these two sets have very much confirmed Tippett's greatness for me: perhaps less naturally talented than Britten, but so blessed with musical personality that he couldn't but force his ideas into a mostly successful form. (to me, Beethoven's ghost is a visible presence in almost everything Tippett does, and is doing a lot of the forcing). And when the work is arguably not entirely successful, it often seems to me that is in part the point: am I misremembering or did Tippett say something like "my music doesn't work as it should because it relates to life as it is, not as it's supposed to be"?

I'd really like to get hold of the major works I've not heard, particularly King Priam and The Mask of Time. Time to stalk the second-hand sites!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on October 05, 2010, 06:58:17 AM
I think I've fetched in basically all the Nimbus set in stages.

I am intrigued by (and grateful for) your endorsement of the Hickox symphonies set . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on October 05, 2010, 02:25:57 PM
Well, I found an entre to Tippett for about 3 bucks.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F0Oe-jh7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on October 05, 2010, 03:08:43 PM
Those are three great pieces, Scarps.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on October 05, 2010, 03:39:18 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 05, 2010, 03:08:43 PM
Those are three great pieces, Scarps.
Excellent performances too--I have a previous incarnation of that disc and now am tempted to put it on.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on December 27, 2010, 06:54:00 PM
I have ignored Tippett's music for years and I'm not sure why, but I have many recordings on the way: I have two Decca box sets with Colin Davis' famous readings of the symphonies/orchestral works in one box while his famous reading of A Child of Our Time is in another. I also went ahead and bought the Hickox symphony set and another recording that compliments it. I look forward to digging into his music.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2010, 06:32:05 AM
Could be a year or so ago I indulged in a Tippett immersion. It will soon be time to repeat (and expand upon) that . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 06, 2011, 03:36:28 PM
Just listened to the triple concerto.  Can't imagine how I got the idea that I loath Tippett.   ???  Wonderful music.  I think it was the 4th symphony that put me over the edge.  (That bit with the breathing.)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 06, 2011, 06:39:02 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 06, 2011, 03:36:28 PM
Just listened to the triple concerto.  Can't imagine how I got the idea that I loath Tippett.   ???  Wonderful music.  I think it was the 4th symphony that put me over the edge.  (That bit with the breathing.)

I really hate the 4th symphony of Tippett's. It's such a catastrophe. Piano Concerto and Fantasia On A Theme by Corelli are two of my favorite Tippett compositions, though the oratorio A Child of Our Time is a gorgeous work.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 06, 2011, 06:51:48 PM
To prove variety as the spice of life, I'll merely note that I think the 4th symphony is a tremendous work, and it's my favourite of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 06, 2011, 07:20:39 PM
Quote from: edward on March 06, 2011, 06:51:48 PM
To prove variety as the spice of life, I'll merely note that I think the 4th symphony is a tremendous work, and it's my favourite of the symphonies.

If I could get a recording without the breathing at the beginning I might be able to listen to it.   :-\
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lescamil on March 06, 2011, 11:16:35 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 06, 2011, 07:20:39 PM
If I could get a recording without the breathing at the beginning I might be able to listen to it.   :-\

The recording of the breathing can be substituted by a wind machine. I have yet to hear a recording that does so, but I could imagine it working much better than the breathing.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 07, 2011, 11:41:30 AM
Did someone say wind machine? For pity's sake - no!! think of the children!! (I refer, of course, to the Great Wind Machine Debate of 2009 or whenever it was, into which Tippett's 4th reared its head).

Massive, massive Tippettian here - as I've said many times. This thread ttt-ing is coincident with me going on one of my frequent Tippett binges. One of the very few composers whose every note I devour, and it's because, as Edward said, the music exudes such personality. Nothing leads you closer to the heart of someone than their music, and if the person is of sufficient interest and the music sufficiently honest, the experience of getting to know them in this way can be awe-inspiring. This is the case with me and Tippett. His detractors tend to miss the point pretty wildly, I think (read a horrifically nasty and vicious - and inaccurate - piece about him by that musically-blind Lebrecht guy the other day; made me feel nauseous!). But no time to pontificate now...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 07, 2011, 11:43:58 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 07, 2011, 11:41:30 AM
Did someone say wind machine? For pity's sake - no!! think of the children!! (I refer, of course, to the Great Wind Machine Debate of 2009 or whenever it was, into which Tippett's 4th reared its head).

Hmmm, maybe Vaughan Williams Arctic would sound better if the wind machines were replaced by the sound of asthmatic old men breathing into microphones.  (Couldn't be much worse.   >:D)

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 07, 2011, 11:46:03 AM
...no, surely better, given the cowpat-theme of all British music, would be a recording of, shall we say, bovine flatus?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 07, 2011, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 07, 2011, 11:46:03 AM
...no, surely better, given the cowpat-theme of all British music, would be a recording of, shall we say, bovine flatus?

C'mon now, there are no cows in the arctic! 
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 07, 2011, 11:52:16 AM
Not even Perry's sled-cows?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 08, 2011, 01:37:50 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 07, 2011, 11:46:57 AM
C'mon now, there are no cows in the arctic!

No, of course not, that would be silly. But we're talking about the Antarctic, not the Arctic. Arctic = Polar bears; Antarctic = Penguins, and, implicitly (since VW wrote a symphony about it, and he was English) cows.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 08, 2011, 04:35:34 AM
Looking forward to giving the symphonies a try soon.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 08, 2011, 05:33:04 AM
As a converted Tippettian you probably don't need to approach them in a particular order - but try 2 first, it's classic Tippett in the first flowering of his full powers. But I love them all, and I think 3 is the bravest, boldest and most impressive of the lot, if you buy into that final blues, which I do.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2011, 08:21:27 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 08, 2011, 05:33:04 AM
As a converted Tippettian you probably don't need to approach them in a particular order - but try 2 first, it's classic Tippett in the first flowering of his full powers. But I love them all, and I think 3 is the bravest, boldest and most impressive of the lot, if you buy into that final blues, which I do.

I just don't think Tippett was a particularly inspired symphonist. This is not to say that he didn't compose some fine orchestral music, because he did, I'm just less convinced by his symphonies. I think he sounds rather uninspired. I have heard all of them, but none fail to capture the greatness he achieved with his Piano Concerto, Concerto for Double String Orchestra, or Fantasia on a Theme by Corelli. There's something about the orchestral writing I like in these works that just hits me right away. The overall sound-world of the symphonies aren't very compelling to me or even that coherent for that matter.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 08, 2011, 04:13:00 PM
Quote from: Luke on March 08, 2011, 05:33:04 AM
As a converted Tippettian you probably don't need to approach them in a particular order - but try 2 first, it's classic Tippett in the first flowering of his full powers. But I love them all, and I think 3 is the bravest, boldest and most impressive of the lot, if you buy into that final blues, which I do.

Does 3 have singing?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 08, 2011, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 08, 2011, 04:13:00 PM
Does 3 have singing?
Yes, the finale (the part of the work that has proved controversial) has a soprano singing Tippett's own idiosyncratic treatment of the blues, punctuated by several appearances of the fanfare from the finale of Beethoven's 9th.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 08, 2011, 09:10:04 PM
Quote from: edward on March 08, 2011, 06:55:12 PM
Yes, the finale (the part of the work that has proved controversial) has a soprano singing Tippett's own idiosyncratic treatment of the blues, punctuated by several appearances of the fanfare from the finale of Beethoven's 9th.

Ok, the reason I grew to loath Tippett is coming back to me.  I'll steer clear of that one, I think.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 09, 2011, 04:46:23 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 08, 2011, 05:33:04 AM
As a converted Tippettian you probably don't need to approach them in a particular order - but try 2 first, it's classic Tippett in the first flowering of his full powers. But I love them all, and I think 3 is the bravest, boldest and most impressive of the lot, if you buy into that final blues, which I do.

Sounds like not everyone here swings into it!  But I am unmoved.  Ready to give them all a clean-slate hearing.

There was one late afternoon I was driving along the Fellsway, and the car radio was tuned into WHRB (possibly the only radio station in the Boston area which would broadcast such a piece), and I heard just the tail end of one of the symphonies or other.  I didn't know what to make of it, but (a) de-contextualized like that, and (b) since sometimes, one's ears just aren't ready for this or that piece . . . I won't count it out from that halting introduction.


The other thing (pace MI) is, I think of how one must expect different things from the Elgar of Falstaff and the concertos, than from the Elgar of the symphonies (and I was quite a while  acquiring a sympathy for the symphonies).  So I shouldn't shear off the Tippett symphonies, because they operate differently to the Fantasia on a Theme of Corelli, e.g.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 09, 2011, 07:43:41 AM
I'm not scared off by the symphonies so much as by the late works.  His final major work was an opera about aliens who land in a space ship and set up a bizarre regime on earth, then depart on the same spaceship, no.  Senile dementia?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Lethevich on March 09, 2011, 07:56:53 AM
Well, if Menotti could do it...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 09, 2011, 09:35:20 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 09, 2011, 07:43:41 AM
I'm not scared off by the symphonies so much as by the late works.  His final major work was an opera about aliens who land in a space ship and set up a bizarre regime on earth, then depart on the same spaceship, no.  Senile dementia?

No. Definitely not. The other last works (5th Quartet, Rose Lake...) belie that idea even if New Year doesn't convince (and yes, the plots can be pretty strange, but I'm always prepared to go with them because the music is worth it!). Tippett is such an easy target - he doesn't hedge his bets, play safe or hide behind technique; he writes his own libretti, so scorned but so perfectly fitted to the music, because he knows that this is the best solution; he delves into his own subconscious and allows the world to see it and poke fun; he doesn't avoid clunkiness (the breathing noises, the chanting in Ice Break..) in his eagerness to communicate; he dares to appropriate some of the instruments of rock and jazz, and to try to 'speak yoof' and invites criticism from all sides for it. He's actually, in many ways, the bravest composer I can think of, so keen to get these ideas which possess him out that he is always at risk of ridicule - and yes, sometimes the ideas don't work, but so often they do...

So, yes, there are simple hits to make on him, if one wishes to, and many like to make them - there are those who dismiss him as an amateur (for 'faults' in his music) whilst failing to recognise that his music has infinitely more guts and humanity than pretty much any other music post 1950 . Personally I feel great gratitude for his music, because it is so generous - give me big, gutsy, human, fallible Tippett over more academically 'correct' but emptier, less urgent music any day. This also ignores the fact that the vast majority of his music is impeccably built and superbly dressed...

Tippett was an innovative composer far ahead of his time in many ways, I think - many times he left audiences and performers playing catch-up (the first performer of the piano concerto declared it unplayable, but multiple beautiful subsequent recordings prove otherwise; the premiere of the 2nd symphony broke down because the violins couldn't cope with their parts, which had been altered from the composer's markings pre-performance; again, subsequent playing proved how eminently playable it is). This also draws (or drew) criticism - bloody amateur, how dare he make us work for our money... which fades with the passage of time, as Tippett's judgement on most things (not breathing sounds, maybe...) is proved correct.

fun little blog entry on Tippett's struggles with the public, repudiating as it goes that disgusting Lebrecht article I mentioned a few posts ago!:

http://angryorganist.blogspot.com/2008/06/separated-at-birth.html
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 09, 2011, 09:43:31 AM
The Rose Lake . . . argument enough, indeed.

Separately — Luke, on a back burner I've been meaning to listen to (or view) King Priam. Should I look in to the Chandos recording, or a staged production on DVD? Your thoughts?  (Have I asked this before? Senile dementia?)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 09, 2011, 10:21:30 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 09, 2011, 09:35:20 AM
fun little blog entry on Tippett's struggles with the public, repudiating as it goes that disgusting Lebrecht article I mentioned a few posts ago!:

http://angryorganist.blogspot.com/2008/06/separated-at-birth.html (http://angryorganist.blogspot.com/2008/06/separated-at-birth.html)

Very interesting (and I missed that post . . . I think I started "following" that blog at a later date).  "Soho the Dog" is a composer here in the Boston area . . . I wonder what he meant by that dreadfully binary quiz?

Osbert plays this nicely, of course:


Quote from: Osbert ParsleyAll of the above, of course, was necessary only for the two people in the blogosphere who still take Norman Lebrecht seriously . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Wendell_E on March 10, 2011, 03:16:44 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 09, 2011, 09:43:31 AM

Luke, on a back burner I've been meaning to listen to (or view) King Priam. Should I look in to the Chandos recording, or a staged production on DVD?

Until Luke weighs in, I'd say "yes"!  It's been my favourite Tippett (The Knot Garden's a close second, I've never heard New Year) opera since I heard the Atherton recording in its original LP release on Decca (what a cast!), but Hytner's production on DVD is also wonderful.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 05:14:26 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 09, 2011, 09:35:20 AM
No. Definitely not. The other last works (5th Quartet, Rose Lake...) belie that idea even if New Year doesn't convince (and yes, the plots can be pretty strange, but I'm always prepared to go with them because the music is worth it!). Tippett is such an easy target - he doesn't hedge his bets, play safe or hide behind technique; he writes his own libretti, so scorned but so perfectly fitted to the music, because he knows that this is the best solution; he delves into his own subconscious and allows the world to see it and poke fun; he doesn't avoid clunkiness (the breathing noises, the chanting in Ice Break..) in his eagerness to communicate; he dares to appropriate some of the instruments of rock and jazz, and to try to 'speak yoof' and invites criticism from all sides for it. He's actually, in many ways, the bravest composer I can think of, so keen to get these ideas which possess him out that he is always at risk of ridicule - and yes, sometimes the ideas don't work, but so often they do...

Well, I don't want to ridicule the poor man.  But when I read an opera is about a spaceship landing, I won't necessarily ridicule it, but I won't listen to it.  If I find out that a symphony is organized around an amplified breathing sound effect, or that it culminates with a bizarre blues for operatic soprano, I'm going to avoid it.  If the man doesn't have the modicum of common sense to realize that those are just silly ideas, why would I trust the rest of the artistic decisions he makes? 

I've been here before, and listening to the man's "brave" works got me so turned off to the music that I sold every Tippett recording I owned, (including the ones that I now realize I like).  I'm not going to go there again.   Sometimes the better part of valor is discretion.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 10, 2011, 05:43:08 AM
Quote from: edward on March 08, 2011, 06:55:12 PM
Yes, the finale (the part of the work that has proved controversial) has a soprano singing Tippett's own idiosyncratic treatment of the blues, punctuated by several appearances of the fanfare from the finale of Beethoven's 9th.

This sounds like the sort of thing PDQ Bach would write. By "fanfare," do you mean the dissonant blast at the opening of the movement?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2011, 07:08:22 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 05:14:26 AM
. . . If I find out that a symphony is organized around an amplified breathing sound effect, or that it culminates with a bizarre blues for operatic soprano, I'm going to avoid it.

I'm guessing that Luke does not find that blues bizarre.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2011, 07:46:17 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 05:14:26 AM
Well, I don't want to ridicule the poor man.  But when I read an opera is about a spaceship landing, I won't necessarily ridicule it, but I won't listen to it.  If I find out that a symphony is organized around an amplified breathing sound effect, or that it culminates with a bizarre blues for operatic soprano, I'm going to avoid it.  If the man doesn't have the modicum of common sense to realize that those are just silly ideas, why would I trust the rest of the artistic decisions he makes? 

I've been here before, and listening to the man's "brave" works got me so turned off to the music that I sold every Tippett recording I owned, (including the ones that I now realize I like).  I'm not going to go there again.   Sometimes the better part of valor is discretion.

Lol...yeah some of his ideas are just so damn bizarre that I find it hard to take him seriously, but as I have said, he did compose some good music. He is very uneven in his output though, no question about it.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2011, 07:51:49 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 10, 2011, 07:08:22 AM
I'm guessing that Luke does not find that blues bizarre.

Meant to italicize bizarre . . . of course, a couple of the early Zappa vinyl LPs were issued on the Bizarre label, so it is possible to exult in the bizarre.  I am only more curious to hear what goes on in the piece . . . from one viewpoint, Stravinsky's stylizations of ragtime and tango might be considered bizarre . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2011, 08:13:40 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 10, 2011, 07:51:49 AM
Stravinsky's stylizations of ragtime and tango might be considered bizarre . . . .

Perhaps but there's no question in my mind that Stravinsky was a better composer than Tippett. Stravinsky had a touch with music that was, while very Modern in outlook, very accessible. I'm not saying that most listeners can listen to Agon with any kind of ease, but Stravinsky was a master of his craft. Tippett is only remembered for a handful of compositions, while Stravinsky kept reeling out one masterpiece after another well into his old age.

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 08:24:27 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 10, 2011, 07:51:49 AM
Meant to italicize bizarre . . . of course, a couple of the early Zappa vinyl LPs were issued on the Bizarre label, so it is possible to exult in the bizarre.  I am only more curious to hear what goes on in the piece . . . from one viewpoint, Stravinsky's stylizations of ragtime and tango might be considered bizarre . . . .

To the extent that I recall it, I didn't notice anything resembling "blues" in the piece, except for the odd stereotypical "bluesy" phrase glaring here and there.  Gershwin knew how to assimilate the blues into a classical context.  Tippett didn't, and didn't recognize that he didn't.  Listening to the brief excerpts on Amazon, it just seems laughably bad.  That said, he wrote some wonderful things and I received two Tippett CDs in the mail today.  Not the 3rd or 4th symphony.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2011, 08:42:05 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 08:24:27 AMI received two Tippett CDs in the mail today.  Not the 3rd or 4th symphony.

What recordings did you receive?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 08:44:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 10, 2011, 08:42:05 AM
What recordings did you receive?

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[asin]B0007L7MVW[/asin]
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 10, 2011, 10:21:36 AM
Great discs, those...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2011, 10:23:45 AM
So, Scarps, you're going for the "de-boned" space alien opera? ; )

Luke, did I ask you about King Priam before?  If so, or even if so, would you mind repeating?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Guido on March 10, 2011, 10:28:50 AM
I'm obviously missing out with the Tippett operas! Now I'm worried I've missed other things. On my ipod (I have far less than I thought):

Piano Sonatas 1,2,3
Piano Concerto
Triple Concerto
Byzantium
Corelli Fantasia
Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Concerto for Orchestra
Various small string pieces

Dear me! What are the most important things I'm missing? The symphonies I guess, A Child of Our Time. Operas. Others?

I've definitely heard a lot more than this over the years - definitely the symphonies and a A Child of Our Time at least.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2011, 10:37:17 AM
I am doubtful that (most of) the operas would be quite my thing, but in a way I do admire Tippett for having the will and the execution to do them.  It is a kind of freedom which most of us artists would envy.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 10:37:30 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 10, 2011, 10:23:45 AM
So, Scarps, you're going for the "de-boned" space alien opera? ; )

I don't anticipate listening to that that portion of the disc.  :)  For the price I paid, it is a bargain just taking into account the symphony.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2011, 10:38:24 AM
Quote from: Guido. on March 10, 2011, 10:28:50 AM
I'm obviously missing out with the Tippett operas! Now I'm worried I've missed other things. On my ipod (I have far less than I thought):

Piano Sonatas 1,2,3
Piano Concerto
Triple Concerto
Byzantium
Corelli Fantasia
Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Concerto for Orchestra
Various small string pieces

Guido, I am impressed that you have so much loaded up there!  I shall need more capacity before I can put even my first Tippett piece on my mp3 player . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2011, 10:42:50 AM
Quote from: Guido. on March 10, 2011, 10:28:50 AM
I'm obviously missing out with the Tippett operas! Now I'm worried I've missed other things. On my ipod (I have far less than I thought):

Piano Sonatas 1,2,3
Piano Concerto
Triple Concerto
Byzantium
Corelli Fantasia
Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Concerto for Orchestra
Various small string pieces

Dear me! What are the most important things I'm missing? The symphonies I guess, A Child of Our Time. Operas. Others?

I've definitely heard a lot more than this over the years - definitely the symphonies and a A Child of Our Time at least.

A Child of Our Time is a gorgeous work. You should definitely check it out. I would opt for the Colin Davis' BBC Symphony recording on Philips. It's out-of-print, but you can probably find it on the used market. It's one of the best versions I've heard. I have not heard Davis' LSO recording of it, so I comment on this performance. The other version I have heard and liked was Tippett's own recording with the CBSO on Naxos. It's very cheap, so this would be a good deal as well.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2011, 10:43:35 AM
Davis brought A Child of Our Time to Boston, but I missed it.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 10, 2011, 10:48:48 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 10, 2011, 10:38:24 AM
Guido, I am impressed that you have so much loaded up there!  I shall need more capacity before I can put even my first Tippett piece on my mp3 player . . . .
I'd probably throw in the The Rose Lake, the later string quartets (3, 4, 5), the last piano sonata, the song cycle The Heart's Assurance, and (if you're feeling courageous) the completely crazy Vision of St. Augustine.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 10, 2011, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 10, 2011, 10:23:45 AM
So, Scarps, you're going for the "de-boned" space alien opera? ; )

It's pretty good de-boned, though. Tippett's orchestral writing is always very assured, IMO, and the excertps from New Year are good music indeed. In the case of an earlier 'excerpt', the Ritual Dances from The Midsummer Marriage, when I'm listening to it (as I was last night) I'm of the opinion that it might be Tippett's finest purely orchestral work (excluding the string orchestra candidates and the concerti)

Quote from: Apollon on March 10, 2011, 10:23:45 AMLuke, did I ask you about King Priam before?  If so, or even if so, would you mind repeating?

Yes, you did, apologies, it slipped through the net. Though I don't have much to say - I haven't seen the DVD. The CD, though, is essential listening.

Quote from: Guido. on March 10, 2011, 10:28:50 AM
I'm obviously missing out with the Tippett operas! Now I'm worried I've missed other things. My collection (I have far less than I thought):

Piano Sonatas 1,2,3
Piano Concerto
Triple Concerto
Byzantium
Corelli Fantasia
Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Concerto for String Orchestra
Various small string pieces

Dear me! What are the most important things I'm missing? The symphonies I guess, A Child of Our Time. Operas. Others?

I've definitely heard a lot more than this over the years - definitely the symphonies and a A Child of Our Time at least.

It's not exactly a huge oeuvre, so it won't take too long to work your way through it. There are piece I could mention for the form of mentioning them - the Handel Fantasy for piano and orchestra, for instance, which is both attractive and a bit of a failure. But I'll just give a list of what I think are his finest pieces:

Operas - The Midsummer Marriage contains absolutely gorgeous, richly lyrical music, Tippett at his compositional best in a work which reaches deep inside him. Of course, cliche dictates that one has to say the plot is impenetrable and crazy, but actually it doesn't seem that way to me - it's just very primal. The piece is stylized and controlled, and at the same time it touches archetypes and is really very raw and wild at heart, in places. I think you will love it. Linked to this, excerpts, as mentioned above: the superb Ritual Dances from Act II (and a bit from Act III). There's a lovely Nimbus Disc which includes the Dances and Sosostris' Act III aria and a couple of other pieces which are hardish to get on other discs - the performances and the couplings make this an essential Tippett disc. For the opera itself, avoid the premiere recording and go for the Davis.I think this is one of the great 20th century operas - and sometimes I even prefer it to Britten opera too: crazier, and ballsier!

King Priam marks the beginning of Tippett's second phase - in which he becomes harder, more dissonant, more angular and brittle, and in which form is determined by the play of motives in a mosaic-like form (seen at its strictest and most schematic in the Second Sonata and the Concerto for Orchestra, which are contemporary and share musical links with the opera). Priam is a tight, visceral piece - I love it. An associated work is the Songs for Achilles for tenor and guitar.

The Knot Garden is Tippett at his most difficult, I think, though the music is frequently magical. Its a work concerned with the interactions of a small group of extreme character - stereotypes, really. It's both ellusive and allusive, very complex psychologically and musicall swift-moving. It's not where I would start, but its full of good things (and a beautiful quotation of Schubert which melts the heart!). Associated work - Songs for Dov, which are a hyper-expressive cycle extending the life of one of the characters. There's a nice EMI disc with Tippett conducting the two famous string orchestra works....and then the Songs for Dov, which are quite a bizarre coupling, but which are otherwise tricky to find. Another essential disc, that one, I think

The Ice Break continues Tippett's devling into contemporary socialogical/political themes, but here the American/jazz influence is even more brazen (and, say the detractors, poorly integrated - I feel that too, at times). The finest music in this opera is very fine (I remember Huw Watkins discovering this piece whilst we shared a house at Cambridge, and his how thunderstruck he was by its quality), but again, it's not a place to start, I think.

New Year - the one Scarpia is talking about, with the crazy plot (but no more so that Midsummer Marriage, in a way, so he came full circle!). The music is more accesible than in the previous two operas, I think - late Tippett often offers this tender rapprochement between his earlier styles - the Rose Lake and the 5th String Quartet are other examples.

Quartets
1, 2 and 3 are early works, but very fine, and increasingly so. 2 contains early uses of Tippettian 'sprung rhythm', beautifully light madrigal-influenced writing and interesting formal weighting. 3 is a big, ambitious piece, full of fugues and with some almost orchestral writing at times.

4 is much later, contemporary with the Triple Concerto and sharing some of the more lyrical material of that sublime piece. But its also full of rougher stuff, including a kind of echo of Beethovens op 133. It's almost orchestral stuff, and it stretches the medium. There is actually a transcription for strings which I haven't heard - I'd love to though

5 is very late - see what I said about New Year. Its available in various incarnations, but I love the Lindsay's recreation of their own premiere, with all sorts of odd but utterly appropriate couplings

Other chamber
The Sonata for Four Horns is one of Tippett's best works, from a purely compositional point of view - it's flawless, and utterly delightful, though a minor piece. It's full of pure poetry, a real joy to hear every time.

The Two concerti
Piano Concerto - a relative to The Midsummer Marriage, filled with that work's radiant lyricism and profound meditative complexity, as well as more specific musical features - the quartal harmony, the use of the celesta as a magic instrument (it's interjections into the piano cadenzas are subtle, gorgeous, mysterious, compelling stuff). Inspired by Gieseking rehearsing Beethoven's most lyrical concerto, the 4th - that says it all, I think

Triple Concerto - Tippett's most attractive late work, I think, memorable from start to finish, singing throughout, formally ingenious, vibrant with exotic (but wonderfully integrated) colour, potently poetic. Adore this piece (was the first Tippett I fell in love with, too)

The Concerto for Orchestra - contemporary with Priam, it's a brittle listen, much of the time (but not in the strings-only slow movements, which you will just die for, I think) but the formal clarity is so unusually clear (naive, the detractors would say, but why on earth shouldn't contemporary music be clear to follow?) It mught be the easiest way into the more difficult works of Tippett's middle period.

The string orchestra pieces
The two biggies you know - the Double Concerto, entirely in that great tradition of British string music, filled with folksong-like ideas (and Tippett's most accesibly beautiful slow movement) and yet also with completely new things - rhythmically above all. This is real rhythmical innovation, as well, complex in a different but truer way than mere tuplet-piling complexity - it's to do with the nature of how we feel rhythm and pulse; this is why the notation was so difficult (Walter Goehr contributed to this)...

..and the beautiful Corelli Fantasia, which, as Meirion Bowen poins out, was contemporary with Le Marteau sans Maitre and the like, and which would have drawn the derision of Boulez and Stockhausen et al....and yet which is as modern as them, in an entirely different way. Which goes to show how many routes there are... It's a kind of hommage to string playing, reaching one of the great climaxes in the fugue, a climax of profound power.

The other string pieces are of much lesser importance.

Chorus and Orchestra - three major pieces, one indisuptably great and of huge appeal (A Child of Our Time); one dense, complex, hugely ambitious, painting tiny details with a huge brush, and full of some of Tippett's most appropriately visionary music (Vision of St Augustine), the last long, complex, wide-ranging, hugely ambitious (spot a theme?) and probably not a complete success (The Mask of Time)

Four Symphonies
1 - not a complete success, but full of some of the features which made the earlier quartets interesting - the intensely contrapuntal nature (fugues and passacaglias abound). The are issues with most movements (the scherzo least of all), but it's still a very rewarding piece

2 - Tippett's least problematic symphony, a powerful piece written at the time he wrote many of his best pieces, the latter end of his first period. Formally clear, orchestrally dazzling

3 - Tippett's most problemativ symphony - because of that finale. As I said before, I don't have a problem with it. The first movements are essentially similar to those in number 2, though more complex, more ambitious; the slow movment is one of those strucutures in whcih the form is essentially repetition with embellishment, which Tippett made his own. Then comes the finale, the parallels to Beethoven's 9th thrust in our faces with the quotation of the opening fanfare (and some other, more hidden ones of other points in the Beethoven) - and then the Beethoven Ode to Joy replaced by this pained, dragging, sometimes ugly, sometimes ecstatic, thing which Tippett calls a blues (and which, yes, contains some places where the blues floats to the surface in an obviou ways, and which is structured something like a series of blues) but which is really an extended aria, Tippett's most extreme, theatrical, ambitious, coloratura aria of all, in the end. Listen without skepticism, and it works a treat

4 - problematic ONLY because of the breathing noises, I think - and Tippett himself wasn't convinced by them, so I don't think we should worry too much. The music itself is top quality later Tippett.

Enough, I think - need to get the kids to bed!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 11:31:16 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 10, 2011, 11:24:31 AMEnough, I think - need to get the kids to bed!

You'll gently sing that "blues" from the 3rd symphony as a lullaby?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2011, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 10, 2011, 11:24:31 AM
It's pretty good de-boned, though. Tippett's orchestral writing is always very assured, IMO, and the excertps from New Year are good music indeed. . . .

Such, I admit, were my suspicions, Luke.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 10, 2011, 11:35:57 AM
Scarps - My daughter was grooving to the Triple Concerto a couple of nights ago, actually. Noting how (I'm essentially quoting her, here) some of the notes don't sound sweet together and yet the whole thing sounds beautiful nevertheless. The 1st interlude would make an ideal soundtrack for bedtime soothing....

As usual, Edward has wise things to say - The Heart's Assurance is certainly an important piece (Tippett is so humane!), and so is Boyhood's End, I think. Add them to my list. The Rose Lake I mentioned in passing, but it's worth a entry on its own. , too.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 11:37:58 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 10, 2011, 11:35:57 AM
Scarps - My daughter was grooving to the Triple Concerto a couple of nights ago, actually. Noting how (I'm essentially quoting her, here) some of the notes don't sound sweet together and yet the whole thing sounds beautiful nevertheless. The 1st interlude would make an ideal soundtrack for bedtime soothing....

I listened to that piece yesterday and adore it. 
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Guido on March 10, 2011, 11:54:49 AM
Cheers for the massive post! Will look into acquiring all of this... Am listening to the triple concerto now which I need to be in the right mood to appreciate - when I am (like now)I think it's just glorious.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 12:00:56 PM
Looking at your list, the things I really need are the string quartets, which are not easy to get in a reasonable package except for a pair of Naxos releases by "The Tippett Quartet."
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Guido on March 10, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
I remember seeing a video of Tippett conducting the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra in some Ives - was he a fan? There definitely seems to be an influence on his sense of orchestral sonority.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 10, 2011, 12:09:54 PM
@ Scarpia re Triple Concerto:

There's nothing quite like it anywhere else, I think. It's the generosity of sound, and the generosity with which it pours out perpetual melody - the way that when the three soloists are playing together their three songs are entirely different, unrelated in speed or motive, and yet gel to make one whole which is effective and memorable; it's the beautifully lucid form, esepcially of the 1st interlude and the slow movement, and the way they relate to each other, the one the pre-echo of the other. It's certainly my favourite later Tippett piece - it's utterly lyrically beautiful, like The Rose Lake, but it's also and at the same time as densely, urgently detailed and communicative as e.g. the best music in the symphonies. My own reduced-to-a-minimum list of essential Tippett would be, in fact:

Double Concerto
Child of Our Time
Midsummer Marriage
Piano Concerto
Corelli Fantasy
Second Symphony
King Priam
Triple Concerto

though that was painful to make, and I'd like to put some chamber music in there...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Guido on March 10, 2011, 12:11:46 PM
Had to find it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbBYZzaSgnU

Not just sonority, but attitude to rhythm and to a certain extent melody I think too.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 10, 2011, 12:14:16 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 12:00:56 PM
Looking at your list, the things I really need are the string quartets, which are not easy to get in a reasonable package except for a pair of Naxos releases by "The Tippett Quartet."

No - I snapped up the Kreutzer Quartet's two discs when I found them reasonably priced, once, but they aren't available reasonably at the moment; but it's the box set of the Lindsays that is really the one to go for. It's available for 20 pounds at amazon UK at the moment, I see...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 10, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
Quote from: Guido. on March 10, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
I remember seeing a video of Tippett conducting the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra in some Ives - was he a fan? There definitely seems to be an influence on his sense of orchestral sonority.

I'm not sure of his precise feelings - I could try and look them up, I think I have most of Tippett's writings now - but he was in general a very open-minded and accepting composer, and I'm positive he would have found Ives to be fascinating and rewarding music indeed. As you say, there are certainly points in common. Tippett's metrical layerings are of a different type to Ives's, technically, and more controlled too, but the effect can be similar.

As a side note - being ex-LSSO myself it's strange how often the orchestra pops up round here! Usually on the Brian thread, because of their pioneering recordings etc, but also now on the Tippett thread. Of course he was their patron or whatever for years, and admired them very much; he wrote The Shires Suite for them, too. That was long before my time, and yet somehow there was still a frisson in the air at rehearsals - Tippett was here, in this room, conducting our predecessors!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scarpia on March 10, 2011, 12:23:49 PM
Quote from: Luke on March 10, 2011, 12:09:54 PM
@ Scarpia re Triple Concerto:

There's nothing quite like it anywhere else, I think. It's the generosity of sound, and the generosity with which it pours out perpetual melody - the way that when the three soloists are playing together their three songs are entirely different, unrelated in speed or motive, and yet gel to make one whole which is effective and memorable; it's the beautifully lucid form, esepcially of the 1st interlude and the slow movement, and the way they relate to each other, the one the pre-echo of the other. It's certainly my favourite later Tippett piece - it's utterly lyrically beautiful, like The Rose Lake, but it's also and at the same time as densely, urgently detailed and communicative as e.g. the best music in the symphonies. My own reduced-to-a-minimum list of essential Tippett would be, in fact:

Double Concerto
Child of Our Time
Midsummer Marriage
Piano Concerto
Corelli Fantasy
Second Symphony
King Priam
Triple Concerto

though that was painful to make, and I'd like to put some chamber music in there...

I'm on board with the Triple Concerto.

What I have (or will have when remaining orders are fulfilled) is

Symphony 1
Symphony 2
Triple Concerto
Concerto for Orchestra
Concerto for double string orchestra
Piano Concerto
Suite from New Year.
Fantasia concertante on a theme of Corelli
Piano Sonatas 1, 2.

What I feel is required are
String Quartets,
remaining piano sonatas
The Rose Lake
maybe Handel Fantasia.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Guido on March 10, 2011, 12:25:12 PM
One other thing - the concerto for orchestra - you say slow movements - my version is just three movements long, fast slow fast, each movement approx 10 mins long. Or is the plural a typo? I do love the piano as an orchestral intrument with strings (echoes of Schoeck's subtlety with this scoring combination, but of course coincidental). I do like it very much!

Must have been amazing to be part of that. Is it still as good nowadays?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 10, 2011, 12:29:16 PM
Quote from: Guido. on March 10, 2011, 12:25:12 PM
One other thing - the concerto for orchestra - you say slow movements - my version is just three movements long, fast slow fast, each movement approx 10 mins long. Or is the plural a typo? I do love the piano as an orchestral intrument with strings (echoes of Schoeck's subtlety with this scoring combination, but of course coincidental). I do like it very much!

Just a typo. I just re-read what I wrote earlier, actually. It's mostly typos....  ;D (mitigation - I was in a rush!)

Quote from: Guido. on March 10, 2011, 12:25:12 PM
Must have been amazing to be part of that. Is it still as good nowadays?

Actually I have no idea about now. When I was in it it was still very good, but on the decline. Back in the Tippett days it was a superb ensemble (for a youth orchestra), and a little later was, apparently, the 'best amateur orchestra in Europe' but, you know, music education budget cuts and all that...  >:(
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 10, 2011, 02:43:36 PM
That disc is an absolute no-brainer, I agree. Can't go wrong with it, three of Tippett's most wonderful and immediately accessible works in some of their finest performances.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2011, 02:51:44 PM
Quote from: James on March 10, 2011, 02:38:24 PM
PIANO CONCERTO
A major Tippett orchestral work. In the composer's own words, this piece "had its precise moment of conception years before, when I was listening to a rehearsal of Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto with Gieseking, who had just returned to England after the war. I felt moved to create a concerto in which once again the piano might sing." The first of the three movements (the longest at around fifteen minutes) sets smooth-flowing lines of melody against agitated orchestral effects, creating an engaging sense of momentum. Overall the concerto is a heavily contrapuntal composition, but in the slow movement it approaches more rhapsodic sense of form; the last movement is basically an orchestral rondo, culminating in a marvellous duet for piano and celesta.

[asin]B001MTBVL0[/asin]
John Ogdon's playing of the Piano Concerto is exceptional - more than a match for the work's contrapuntal vigour. Colin Davis, a renowned interpreter of Tippett's music, conducts this piece with real energy - sharply defined colours of the finale are especially marvellous.

I'm about to listen to this disc. I bought it a week or so ago, but haven't heard it yet. Thanks for the informative writing, now I really want to listen to it!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 14, 2011, 07:20:49 AM
Behold, I shew you a mystery . . . first, the Beethoven citation strikes me as perfectly fine, which is a change from the (dis-contextualized) first time I heard (only a patch of) the Third Symphony.  That earlier time, I was (I think I mentioned before) driving around, and just landed mid-symphony while dial-twiddling.  I do remember finding myself musically annoyed by the sudden intrusion of Beethoven, but then, given the "audition" circumstances, that really means nothing.  Chances are, I soon after re-tuned the car radio—in any event, I do not now remember hearing any soprano, then.  (Chances are, too, that it was the first occurrence in the Tippett of the famous Schreckenfanfare.)

From the discussion here (or, hereabouts), I've been led to expect that the soprano (or, the soprano singing, not the blues, but some stylization of the blues) would somehow be The Problem.  Well, here I've heard her sing, myself, and I find no such matter.  Fact is, when she began singing, and there was a sort of responsory duet with solo trumpet, I thought it was more a kind of echo of Threni than aught else.  Any question of adaptation of the blues doesn't 'bother' me at all, in the first place;  and in the second, another classic resonance I found working in Tippett's favor:  the Schoenberg second quartet.

I guess, most of all, that I am a bit taken aback (in a pleased way) that I find the piece so readily agreeable to listen to, and to enjoy on its own merits.  What was I thinking, giving any credence to the naysayers?
; )
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 17, 2011, 04:48:09 PM
I think it is sometimes hard to approach the 3rd just because there has been so much red ink thrown about regarding the last movement. (I know that I left it till last of the symphonies, prepared to dislike it because of everything I'd read and heard.)

Returning to the work for the first time in a while--the Hickox recording of it--I was really struck by the strength of personality which the music conveys. It's music that demands to be met on its own terms, and though I can understand why many listeners might find it offputting, I found that its sheer immediacy sweeps away any qualms I might have about the style and material of the last movement.

And I guess that's why I value Tippett so highly: yes, the music is definitely 'warts and all', but at its best--and I do think the last two symphonies are Tippett at his best--it speaks to me with a directness that transcends its flaws (and I think that its direct communicativeness is inseparable from its flawed nature).
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: karlhenning on March 18, 2011, 04:23:02 AM
Fine post, Edward.

Kim Priam has landed, and it is First-Listen Friday . . . I just need for the morning mtg to pass by . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 01:48:30 AM
Quote from: Guido on March 10, 2011, 12:11:46 PM
Had to find it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbBYZzaSgnU

Not just sonority, but attitude to rhythm and to a certain extent melody I think too.
I remember it well. Cirencester, Easter 1969. A recording made for BBC 2. We also did Interlude II from The Shires Suite but the footage hasn't been saved. I managed to get hold of this Ives clip, courtesy of a friend at the BBC. These sessions kept being disrupted by The Red Arrows. We took a break, Michael phoned the HQ and they stopped for an hour so that we could finish the job. The late great Jimmy Watson on 1st trumpet, Tony Lewis from the Medici Quartet leading the cellos. We played the Ives later that year at the Bath Festival and in The Philharmonie in Berlin. Happy days! 
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 02:03:13 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 10, 2011, 12:20:05 PM

As a side note - being ex-LSSO myself it's strange how often the orchestra pops up round here! Usually on the Brian thread, because of their pioneering recordings etc, but also now on the Tippett thread. Of course he was their patron or whatever for years, and admired them very much; he wrote The Shires Suite for them, too. That was long before my time, and yet somehow there was still a frisson in the air at rehearsals - Tippett was here, in this room, conducting our predecessors!
I played in the first public performance of The Shires Suite at Cheltenham in 1970. It's a riot. I have the recording if anyone fancies hearing it - just send me an email. The LSSO was incredible from 1967 to 1990. Highly professional. After years of educational dumbing down, it's not the same now but it's still OK. I have a huge archive of the LSSO's recordings over the deacades, hence my assessment. By the way Luke, I'm delighted that you had the frisson at rehearsals but bear in mind that when Tippett was working with the LSSO the rehearsals were at Longlslade Grammar School in Birstall. Didn't Peter Fletcher relocate the orchestra elsewhere in 1977? Maybe the ghost of SMT followed them..........
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on February 01, 2012, 06:58:47 AM
Two wonderful refurbished LPs are now available in superb sound.
1) Tippett conducting the LSSO in The Prince Charles Suite with works by Mathias, Arnold and Ridout (PYE 1967)
2) Tippett's Shires Suite with the LSSO conducted by Peter Fletcher (UNICORN 1981).
Both offer great sound and great value.
http://www.klassichaus.us/
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: ggluek on March 14, 2012, 05:18:01 PM
My favorites include most of those listed above (Corelli Fantasia, Piano Concerto, Triple Concerto, Second Symphony).  I think The Midsummer Marriage contains the most beautiful music written in the 1950s, and is on my desert island list.  You can either get past the libretto's idiomatic 1950s British English, or you can't.  But if you can't you're missing something wonderful.

A personal anecdote:  I went to the second of the US premiere performances of the Third Symphony by Colin Davis and the BSO, and wound up quite by accident sitting next to Michael Steinberg, who was then he Globe's music critic.  He offered me the score to look at (and I was lost inside of two pages).  It made a huge impression on me at the time, but hasn't worn as well as some of his other pieces.

george
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lescamil on March 14, 2012, 06:37:56 PM
I've always been a sucker for Tippett's Piano Concerto. It has to be one of the few piano concertos with a virtuoso celesta part (Christopher Rouse's is another) that complements the piano part excellently, and, being the part time orchestral keyboardist I am, I get really excited about these sorts of things, heh. The piece itself has some very interesting harmonies in it and is a very beautiful and well orchestrated work.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 14, 2012, 07:06:54 PM
Quote from: lescamil on March 14, 2012, 06:37:56 PM
I've always been a sucker for Tippett's Piano Concerto. It has to be one of the few piano concertos with a virtuoso celesta part (Christopher Rouse's is another) that complements the piano part excellently, and, being the part time orchestral keyboardist I am, I get really excited about these sorts of things, heh. The piece itself has some very interesting harmonies in it and is a very beautiful and well orchestrated work.

I couldn't agree more. I think it's one of the finest PCs of the 20th Century in fact. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: mjwal on March 16, 2012, 02:33:33 AM
Just catching up with this. I see there is a general consensus about the Triple Concerto, and I'm happy to join in. There doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for the post-Midsummer Marriage operas. I have always had a weakness for the Tempest-tossed Knot Garden, perhaps I'm just a sucker for parables revolving around psycho-analysis and pseudo-magical manipulation, but the characters are involving if exaggerated. There is an offshoot from that work, Songs for Dov, which for me is one of the most striking and unforgettable orchestral song cycles of the post-WW2 period. Here's an interesting programme about it -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00grk6q
Of course, if you have a very negative attitude to "the 60s" this may be anathema. But it has among other things just tremendous oomph and variety. I only know one recording, once on Virgin, which I see is on a useful 2-CD set on EMI - though I don't know what the Barshai-led recordings are like:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5190Ak8znML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 16, 2012, 05:08:52 AM
Quote from: mjwal on March 16, 2012, 02:33:33 AM
Just catching up with this. I see there is a general consensus about the Triple Concerto, and I'm happy to join in. There doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for the post-Midsummer Marriage operas. I have always had a weakness for the Tempest-tossed Knot Garden, perhaps I'm just a sucker for parables revolving around psycho-analysis and pseudo-magical manipulation, but the characters are involving if exaggerated. There is an offshoot from that work, Songs for Dov, which for me is one of the most striking and unforgettable orchestral song cycles of the post-WW2 period. Here's an interesting programme about it -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00grk6q
Of course, if you have a very negative attitude to "the 60s" this may be anathema. But it has among other things just tremendous oomph and variety. I only know one recording, once on Virgin, which I see is on a useful 2-CD set on EMI - though I don't know what the Barshai-led recordings are like:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5190Ak8znML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Don't know about the Ritual Dances, but Barshai's concerto for double string orchestra is great, and every bit as much a staple of the Tippett discography as Ogdon in the piano concerto and the composer-led Corelli fantasia.

Actually, that two-CD set would be a pretty much ideal introduction to the composer for anyone none-too-modernist inclined; four accessible Tippett classics, a couple of charming minor works and one example of the composer's more difficult 60s style.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on March 16, 2012, 05:55:04 AM
Listened to the first movement of the PC, due to the overwhelming positive criticism. Very nice gamelan like quality. You guys are giving me a Tippett bug!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lescamil on March 17, 2012, 12:07:08 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 16, 2012, 05:55:04 AM
Listened to the first movement of the PC, due to the overwhelming positive criticism. Very nice gamelan like quality. You guys are giving me a Tippett bug!

If you want something a bit more gamelan-like that Tippett composed, try the Triple Concerto, especially the middle movement. I've never really thought of the Piano Concerto as a gamelan-like piece, to be honest.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: raduneo on March 17, 2012, 09:03:49 AM
I got more into Tippett lately. His piano concerto is truly great. I love his second symphony (I have yet to hear his 3rd and 4th), and his Triple Concerto is a very unique piece ( I mean that in a good way!).

Of course the Double Concerto and his Corelli Fantasy are nothing short of sublime (the recording conducted by Tippett himself).

I have yet to order a Ahild of our time and Rose Lake, but I will not wait long!!! :) My favorite English composer after Vaughn Williams and Britten so far!

Stupid question:  in his "A child of our time", are the spirituals sung by African Americans? That would make more sense to me.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 17, 2012, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: raduneo on March 17, 2012, 09:03:49 AM
I got more into Tippett lately. His piano concerto is truly great. I love his second symphony (I have yet to hear his 3rd and 4th), and his Triple Concerto is a very unique piece ( I mean that in a good way!).

Of course the Double Concerto and his Corelli Fantasy are nothing short of sublime (the recording conducted by Tippett himself).

I have yet to order a Ahild of our time and Rose Lake, but I will not wait long!!! :) My favorite English composer after Vaughn Williams and Britten so far!

Stupid question:  in his "A child of our time", are the spirituals sung by African Americans? That would make more sense to me.
Not usually, though I'm sure that it's been done. I think Tippett's view was that the spirituals were music with a universal message that transcended racial/national identities, and thus could be used as a structural and emotional linchpin very much as Bach used chorale melodies.

If you get the Colin Davis recording of Rose Lake  (I have both it and the Hickox, and do prefer Davis by a small but significant margin):

[asin]B00069I6QA[/asin]

.. you also get the chance to dip into the truly eccentric side of the composer, with his own recording of The Vision of St. Augustine. I'm very much a believer in the work, as despite its flaws there's really nothing else like it, but it's certainly an acquired taste.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on March 17, 2012, 08:35:51 PM
Pulled out String Quartet No.4 (Lindsays), and didn't get passed the first movement (wasn't in the mood for something so meaty). I recall the whole thing being very agitated and busy; what do you think?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 18, 2012, 12:54:57 AM
The 4th Quartet is quite a tough nut, as here Tippett is working with sonorities that are really orchestral in type. It is a much less 'quartetty' quartet than its predecessors, which are fabulous models of how to write for the ensemble. That is not to say that it is a weaker work - no, in fact I think it is potentially both the most attractive and the most powerful of all 5, and also the most typical of its composer, in some respects. But it is a hard one to pull off

Tippett realised that this quartet could stand to gain from the less tense, exposed textures of a bigger ensemble, which is why he and Meirion Bowen reworked it into a version for string orchestra called Water out of Sunlight, which is the one major Tippett piece I have not heard, and I would love to, because I"m sure it
sounds amazing. The title 'Water out of Sunlight' comes from TS Eliot - Tippett decided to call this because he wanted to be more public about the music's link to Eliot's Four Quartets than he had been with the original piece.

Perhaps this Eliot link will help a listener to find a way in, I'm not sure. These are the lines in question:

Dry the pool, dry concrete, brown edged,
And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight.
And the lots rose, quietly, quietly,
The surface glittered out of heart of light,/And they were behind us, reflected in the pool.
Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.
Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,
Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
Time past and time future
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.

Much clearer than this, if one gets beond the opening pages of the quartet, is its enormous indebtedness to Beethoven. More than that, the piece is a homage to LVB, and contains its own lengthy, wild fugue which is clearly referencing the Beethoven's op 133. Finally, some of the more delicate pages of the quartet clearly operate in exactly the same world as some of the writing for string trio in the roughly contemporaneous Triple Concerto. I find it useful to be aware of that - in the concerto Tippett garlands the trio with fragrant gamelans of bells and vibes and tuned gongs and celesta and glockenspiel; the atmosphere is languid and spicy, sleepily ultra-lyrical. The quartet is shorn of those tinkling, enveloping sexy sounds, of course, but an awareness that Tippett associated this particular texture with that kind of lulling exotic lyricism is helpful.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: starrynight on March 18, 2012, 01:38:49 AM
I'm English and I don't even drink tea lol.  Don't know if Tippett was particularly fond of it or not...

Anyway onto the music, I can't say I'm particularly a fan of Tippett.  Not that I think he is terrible, it's just that there are so many other composers to listen to as well and he hasn't really been a priority to me.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on March 18, 2012, 07:11:12 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 18, 2012, 12:54:57 AM
The 4th Quartet is quite a tough nut, as here Tippett is working with sonorities that are really orchestral in type. It is a much less 'quartetty' quartet than its predecessors, which are fabulous models of how to write for the ensemble. That is not to say that it is a weaker work - no, in fact I think it is potentially both the most attractive and the most powerful of all 5, and also the most typical of its composer, in some respects. But it is a hard one to pull off

Tippett realised that this quartet could stand to gain from the less tense, exposed textures of a bigger ensemble, which is why he and Meirion Bowen reworked it into a version for string orchestra called Water out of Sunlight, which is the one major Tippett piece I have not heard, and I would love to, because I"m sure it
sounds amazing. The title 'Water out of Sunlight' comes from TS Eliot - Tippett decided to call this because he wanted to be more public about the music's link to Eliot's Four Quartets than he had been with the original piece.

Perhaps this Eliot link will help a listener to find a way in, I'm not sure. These are the lines in question:

Dry the pool, dry concrete, brown edged,
And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight.
And the lots rose, quietly, quietly,
The surface glittered out of heart of light,/And they were behind us, reflected in the pool.
Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.
Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,
Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
Time past and time future
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.

Much clearer than this, if one gets beond the opening pages of the quartet, is its enormous indebtedness to Beethoven. More than that, the piece is a homage to LVB, and contains its own lengthy, wild fugue which is clearly referencing the Beethoven's op 133. Finally, some of the more delicate pages of the quartet clearly operate in exactly the same world as some of the writing for string trio in the roughly contemporaneous Triple Concerto. I find it useful to be aware of that - in the concerto Tippett garlands the trio with fragrant gamelans of bells and vibes and tuned gongs and celesta and glockenspiel; the atmosphere is languid and spicy, sleepily ultra-lyrical. The quartet is shorn of those tinkling, enveloping sexy sounds, of course, but an awareness that Tippett associated this particular texture with that kind of lulling exotic lyricism is helpful.

I'll have to find some 'mood' then! ;)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2012, 09:11:00 AM
I know I have got this quartet somewhere, but I don't know that I've ever listened to it . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 18, 2012, 07:24:15 PM
I've been getting back into Tippett after reading Edward's post about The Rose Lake, so I ordered Hickox's recording with the Ritual Dances. I'm really looking forward to this, but I think Tippett, like any composer, has his weak points. I could barely make it through his symphony cycle, but perhaps I was just expecting too much from the music. A Child Of Our Time is essential Tippett. Of course, the Piano Concerto, which seems to be mentioned here a good bit is just outstanding from start to finish. I really like his string orchestra works too. I haven't ventured into his operas yet, but I imagine this will be something I'll dive into eventually. So far, I prefer Hickox to Colin Davis in Tippett, but I would really like to get those Nimbus recordings with Tippett conducting.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 21, 2012, 04:26:02 PM
Today has been kind of a Tippett listening day for me. I'm currently listening to his Symphony No. 1 w/ Hickox/Bournemouth SO and what a magnificent symphony this is! When I first heard this symphony a year or so ago, it failed to make much of an impression on me as did most of the Tippett I heard, but I'm really enjoying his music now. It seems that for some composers the longer I stay away, the better their music comes across to me. I bought two Tippett recordings tonight:

[asin]B000025ZJT[/asin]

My second recording of A Child of Our Time:

[asin]B000000AQR[/asin]
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 21, 2012, 04:39:27 PM
Both are fabulous recordings, essential for any Tippett collection, the Midsummer Marriage one especially. Glad to hear you're enjoying this wonderful composer more - I wss thinking of your previous post today, actually, as I listened to the 2nd Symphony, one of Tippett;s most fully-achieved works. I could talk about Tippett all day, though - he's a composer I can get heavily addicted to., one of my very favourites!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 21, 2012, 04:52:49 PM
Quote from: Luke on March 21, 2012, 04:39:27 PM
Both are fabulous recordings, essential for any Tippett collection, the Midsummer Marriage one especially. Glad to hear you're enjoying this wonderful composer more - I wss thinking of your previous post today, actually, as I listened to the 2nd Symphony, one of Tippett;s most fully-achieved works. I could talk about Tippett all day, though - he's a composer I can get heavily addicted to., one of my very favourites!

This really great to hear, Luke! I know you're a huge Tippett fan and I've read a lot of posts on this very thread and I have to thank you for some of your insight and thoughtful comments in regards to this great man's music. Allow me to list the recordings I own for you so maybe we can compare notes (so to speak):

-The Symphonies - Hickox, Bournemouth, 3 CDs, Chandos
-Symphonies 1-4, Ritual Dances, various orchestral works, C. Davis, Solti, Marriner, LSO, CSO, 5 CDs, Decca
-A Child of Our Time, Choral Works, Boyhood's End, The Knot Garden, Davis, various performers, 4 CDs, Decca
-Double Concerto, Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Andrew Davis, BBC Symphony Orch., Telarc
-The Rose Lake, The Vision of St. Augustine, C. Davis, M. Tippett, London Symphony Orchestra, RCA
-The Rose Lake, Ritual Dances, Richard Hickox, BBC National Orch. of Wales, Hybrid SACD, Chandos
-Piano Concerto, Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Richard Hickox, Howard Shelley, Bournemouth Symphony, Chandos
-Piano Concerto, Piano Sonatas, John Ogdon, C. Davis, Philharmonia Orch., EMI

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 21, 2012, 06:13:47 PM
It has been mentioned many, many times before, especially by critics, but it seems that Tippett can't escape the criticism of being a rather uneven and flawed composer. This could be said of any composer. There are no composers that are perfect. Tippett also gets the criticism that he's overstepping his bounds in regards to his own musical ability. Besides Britten, I don't think you'll find a more unique 20th Century British composer. His music, as Luke has so elegantly pointed out, came from his heart. There aren't any mind games happening in Tippett's music. I read that Tippett would not even write a piece of music until he had a clear idea of what he wanted to say. His work ethic was just awe-inspiring. Could he be eccentric? Of course, but so could many other composers. I'm really connecting with Tippett's music and the more I read about him, the more I admire him.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: starrynight on March 21, 2012, 09:29:44 PM
I'm not surprised at the criticisms, though I haven't read much about him.  Is overambition a good thing?  It could be said most classical composers are ambitious in a sense.  Certainly people have said his music comes from the heart, though is that just a comment on the style as I suppose as you could say that in general about many other composers too.  Some I suppose may use a more reticent style, but that could also be expressive at times.  What people probably mean is that even when his music is lighter it might still still feel intense in a way.  That may appeal to some people more or give a greater sounding importance to his music.  This was one of things behind my comment before about the 'tearoom' title, it probably gives a wrong impression of his style.  :D 

I will give him another go sometime though I have wondered in the past why he specifically became more famous than other composers.  I think the ambition part of it is probably behind that, same maybe with Britten.  Getting big commissions and big publicised recordings and performances as a result will make critics take notice of you.  And it's better to be taken notice of than to be completely ignored, even if there are criticisms.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 21, 2012, 09:51:52 PM
Quote from: starrynight on March 21, 2012, 09:29:44 PM
I'm not surprised at the criticisms, though I haven't read much about him.  Is overambition a good thing?  It could be said most classical composers are ambitious in a sense.  Certainly people have said his music comes from the heart, though is that just a comment on the style as I suppose as you could say that in general about many other composers too.  Some I suppose may use a more reticent style, but that could also be expressive at times.  What people probably mean is that even when his music is lighter it might still still feel intense in a way.  That may appeal to some people more or give a greater sounding importance to his music.  This was one of things behind my comment before about the 'tearoom' title, it probably gives a wrong impression of his style.  :D 

I will give him another go sometime though I have wondered in the past why he specifically became more famous than other composers.  I think the ambition part of it is probably behind that, same maybe with Britten.  Getting big commissions and big publicised recordings and performances as a result will make critics take notice of you.  And it's better to be taken notice of than to be completely ignored, even if there are criticisms.

The critiicisms of a composer never bothered me much. I think, as a listener, we all have to reach our own conclusions. If I had taken what many critics said about Tippett, I wouldn't have ever heard a note of his music! :) Many have simply degraded him and I think it's a shame. He doesn't deserve that kind of treatment at all. I recognize his music has it's detractors as all composers but he has composed some solid music that's just as compelling as anything that has come from Shostakovich or his contemporary Britten. It's too often that I think people get caught up in the negative aspects of a composer that they simply don't want to accept the positives. Like for example, I don't like Schnittke's music, but I think it is some fascinating music and I can certainly understand why it appeals to some people. I'm just one of those listeners who it hasn't connected with. This said, he deserves all the attention he can get just like I think Tippett deserves all the attention he can get. I read a quote from Tippett that said that public recognition doesn't always translate to a composer's inner fulfillment or something to that effect.

Luke will probably be delighted when he reads my post and I sure hope he is because Tippett's music has taken ahold of me and it's not letting go!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 01:30:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 21, 2012, 06:13:47 PM
It has been mentioned many, many times before, especially by critics, but it seems that Tippett can't escape the criticism of being a rather uneven and flawed composer. This could be said of any composer. There are no composers that are perfect.

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 21, 2012, 09:51:52 PM
Luke will probably be delighted when he reads my post and I sure hope he is because Tippett's music has taken ahold of me and it's not letting go!

Luke will possibly remark that liking all the Tippett you've heard is one thing, and that the claim that "There are no composers that are perfect,"  is entirely another.   Luke may even ask you, since you claim that "rather uneven and flawed . . . could be said of any composer," just where this unevenness, and these flaws, are, in the music of (e.g.) Ravel?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 22, 2012, 06:50:50 AM
Speaking as an absolutely unqualified lover of much of Tippett's music, I think there's a lot of truth in the comments about him being uneven and flawed by conventional musical standards, but that this absolutely cannot be separated from the nature of the music. It's very obvious that Tippett wished to communicate certain things that clearly were very important to him in an extremely direct manner, and sometimes the tradition within which he worked did not contain the necessary tools to express himself in this way. Hence unconventional things like the "blues" (not that it is a blues) in the 3rd symphony, the breathing in the 4th symphony, the in-your-face treatments of racial issues in some of the operas, and so on.

Sometimes these things unequivocally work (for me, at least, the finale of the 3rd symphony is an unquestioned success, and resolves the micro-scale dynamic/macro-scale static nature of the previous three movements by giving the work the macro-scale direction that Tippett had so carefully avoided up till that point). Sometimes they don't work at all for me--I cannot get anything out of The Knot Garden, for example, and perhaps most often I find that they work sometimes but not always within the confines of one work (as for example in The Ice Break, an uneven opera that is still absolutely essential Tippett, because it contains some of the composer's very finest writing).

In many ways I think this is part of Tippett's Beethovenian inheritance--most of his mature work proclaims Beethoven as a model in every bar, but of course Beethoven's solutions were no longer adequate to solving the problems that Tippett's music had to resolve.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 06:56:23 AM
Most interesting, thanks, Edward.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 06:59:01 AM
And thanks for this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg613316.html#msg613316) . . . I'm probably about ready to give that one a try.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 07:11:35 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 22, 2012, 01:30:36 AM
Luke will possibly remark that liking all the Tippett you've heard is one thing, and that the claim that "There are no composers that are perfect,"  is entirely another.   Luke may even ask you, since you claim that "rather uneven and flawed . . . could be said of any composer," just where this unevenness, and these flaws, are, in the music of (e.g.) Ravel?

There are flaws in every composer's music. Some are just more noticeable than others. Even the music of Ravel has it's flaws. Some would say that Ravel suffers from too much flash from the orchestra and not enough substance in the music. I, of course, disagree, but this has been a criticism I've read before. No composer is not without some kind of flaw because none of them are perfect. They can strive for perfection, such as Ravel, but this merely isn't something that's worth chasing after. Even with Ravel there are moments where he simply lets down his guard long enough to let us hear his heart. In the end, it doesn't matter what the music sounds like but rather how it affects and moves us emotionally/intellectually.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 07:24:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 07:11:35 AM
There are flaws in every composer's music.

Back that assertion up with examples in Ravel's music; that was the question, you see. You don't answer a question by rephrasing your assertion.

I should also like examples of flaws in the music of: JS Bach, Mozart and Bartók. It's got to be easy, right, since you assert that there are flaws in every composer's music?  As a composer, I am interested, you see.  What exactly are these flaws.

Take your time and make an intelligent answer. TIA.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 07:26:26 AM
Make it easy on yourself, John: find one flaw in the music of any of the four I've named.  You must admit, I've made your work easier by not selecting obscurities.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 08:33:41 AM
 ::) Anyway, getting back on topic with Tippett which is the only reason I visit this thread and not to be challenged by Karl with a topic that I think is common sense.

I'm excited about hearing The Midsummer Marriage, the two versions of A Child of our Time I bought, and The Ice Break. Now to acquire King Priam.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: springrite on March 22, 2012, 09:03:25 AM
Sometimes what others call "flaws" I consider them to be strength. Like a pianist with maybe less than perfect technique or have other apparent shortcomings, and I am now reminded of Alicia de Larrocha's small hands when playing works that actually demands bigger hands, she somehow more or less pulls it off, and you can hear and feel the tension (as opposed to easy-as-pie) and the struggle, the music came across so much better. It is the same with many tenors I prefer to the apparent easiness of Pavarotti. Tippett is the similar in that regard. He is not afraid to take risks and he fails on occasions but more often than not more or less pulls it off, with the apparent struggles. And occasionally, he got it so wonderfully that you say WOW! It is something that a "genius" composer like Saint-Saens could never achieve even if he tries (because even if he tried, it'd never sound like he tried).
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 09:07:34 AM
Interesting post, Paul; and thank you for underscoring the fact that the term flaw is being slung around without definition.

How many times has a conversation chased its own tail because terms have been allowed to remain vague?

That is why, John, since you are teaching us all that every composer has flaws, I invite you to point a few out.  That will get us closer to learning what you mean by flaws.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 09:09:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 08:33:41 AM
::) Anyway, getting back on topic with Tippett which is the only reason I visit this thread and not to be challenged by Karl with a topic that I think is common sense.

Thank you for not answering my question, and for your implicit agreement thereby, that your assertion is hot air.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 09:11:05 AM
It's a pity, because I think that discussion of what compositional flaws may be is of much greater interest than slinging around vapid assertions, and ducking for cover under the compound assertion that it's "common sense."
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 09:26:05 AM
 ::)

Getting back to Tippett I pray...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 09:28:15 AM
Quote from: edward on March 22, 2012, 06:50:50 AM
Speaking as an absolutely unqualified lover of much of Tippett's music, I think there's a lot of truth in the comments about him being uneven and flawed by conventional musical standards, but that this absolutely cannot be separated from the nature of the music. . . .

This recalls some comments which Luke has made, sometimes of Tippett, sometimes of (IIRC) Janáček: that the humanity of the composers (and, at least in the case of Tippett, the occasional faltering) is warp and weft of the music.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: springrite on March 22, 2012, 09:29:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 09:26:05 AM
::)

Getting back to Tippett I pray...

Or to Michael Palin. They are one and the same, you know.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 09:35:27 AM
I've really been getting a kick out of Symphony No. 3. What strangely beautiful composition. I'm trying to figure whether I prefer the C. Davis to Hickox. Both performances are excellent.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: starrynight on March 22, 2012, 10:09:19 AM
I've never liked Schnittke's music much either, it can feel a bit suffocating.

All composers may well have flaws in that they are probably better at doing some things than others.  The key is probably for them to realise what they are good at and to develop that to its fullest.  If they venture into areas where they aren't so good and aren't likely to develop to a high degree that could cause some aggravation to some listeners, though others may enjoy seeing the compositional struggle at work.  Ambition in itself from my perspective isn't the main thing.  A composer can be very ambitious and produce a very complex and large scale work but if it still doesn't really cohere for me then I probably wouldn't be impressed as I wouldn't feel I enjoyed it that much.  That is probably the case with some of Tippett like some orchestral works for instance.  If I'm only intermittently impressed by a piece it tends to leave me frustrated.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 10:11:22 AM
Quote from: starrynight on March 22, 2012, 10:09:19 AM
All composers may well have flaws in that they are probably better at doing some things than others.

That's a good point, but it is something which I think is not most aptly termed a flaw.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 10:27:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image"What would you call then, Karl?

Well, let's think about that a bit, John.

Meanwhile, say that Bach was better at doing some things than others.  Can you give examples of these others?
; )

Calling those other things "flaws" is like pointing to a cherry and calling it an orange, because that's the word you have in mind.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 10:30:10 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 22, 2012, 10:27:27 AM
Well, let's think about that a bit, John.

Meanwhile, say that Bach was better at doing some things than others.  Can you give examples of these others?
; )

Calling those other things "flaws" is like pointing to a cherry and calling it an orange, because that's the word you have in mind.

Flaw isn't the right word in describing a composer who was better in area than another. That's just recognizing each composer's limitations. Perhaps limitations is better word than flaw?

Karl, you mention Ravel as being a perfect composer, but do you honestly think that everything he wrote was perfect?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 10:30:10 AM
Perhaps limitations is better word than flaw?

Well, I can certainly agree that most composers have limitations to a greater or lesser degree.

Quote from: Mirror ImageKarl, you mention Ravel as being a perfect composer, but do you honestly think that everything he wrote was perfect?

Now that is really an excellent question!

I have not studied everything Ravel wrote, so the quick answer is, I am not in a position to answer.

That said, of all the music of Ravel's which I have studied, I have not found anything, anything at all, which I should consider in the light of an "imperfection."

I should have thought you might seize upon Mozart, since obviously we have a wealth of juvenilia which is perforce not an a level to match his mature masterworks.  But that is a different matter, isn't it?  We don't call a composer's work "flawed" based on early works before he achieved mastery.  And to round back to Tippett, that's not what, for instance, Edward is saying, in finding unevenness in a late opera — an opera which he nevertheless considers essential Tippett.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 10:52:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 22, 2012, 10:40:17 AM
Well, I can certainly agree that most composers have limitations to a greater or lesser degree.

Now that is really an excellent question!

I have not studied everything Ravel wrote, so the quick answer is, I am not in a position to answer.

That said, of all the music of Ravel's which I have studied, I have not found anything, anything at all, which I should consider in the light of an "imperfection."

I should have thought you might seize upon Mozart, since obviously we have a wealth of juvenilia which is perforce not an a level to match his mature masterworks.  But that is a different matter, isn't it?  We don't call a composer's work "flawed" based on early works before he achieved mastery.  And to round back to Tippett, that's not what, for instance, Edward is saying, in finding unevenness in a late opera — an opera which he nevertheless considers essential Tippett.


I need to listen to more of Mozart's late works. I've always admired his Requiem, but that's for another thread. Unevenness is perhaps an even better word than flawed. Perhaps I should have chosen my words more wisely? Anyway, I'm in full agreement with Edward about Tippett's unevenness. His Symphony No. 4, for example, is just well odd, but I think even it has some merit to it. His Symphony No. 3 is another work that has sparked serious debate, but I like it just the way it is. I think the closest thing that Tippett wrote that I could consider perfection would be his works for string orchestra like Concerto for Double String Orchestra and Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli. These's not a note out-of-place in these works IMHO. Everything is just heavenly.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 11:00:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 10:52:09 AM
. . . I think the closest thing that Tippett wrote that I could consider perfection would be his works for string orchestra like Concerto for Double String Orchestra and Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli.

Those two works are surely flawless : )
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 22, 2012, 11:00:35 AM
Those two works are surely flawless : )

:D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 22, 2012, 03:16:27 PM
Wow! You go to work for a day, and suddenly the Tippett thread springs into life! How funny - I was talking to my girlfriend about just these issues only today.

Clearly I am as predictable as I fear, because both Mirror Image and Karl have correctly remembered the sort of thing I habitually say here,  and though there seems to have been some kind of frisson going on between them on this issue, I don't feel I'm ducking out by saying I agree with both. If terminonolgy is the problem - the word flaw, for instance - well, so be it. All I know is that I love Tippett unreservedly, and I love Ravel in the same degree.

Tippett is a brave composer. He reminds me of Brian and Janacek in this respect - no wonder all three are such deeply rooted favourites of mine. These are composers whose convictions were so strong that they led them in directions which were/are often considered misguided, foolish, amateurish etc, and yet they went on regardless because they felt so strongly. Janacek kept on writing his peculiarly-scored, weirdly-notated, awkward music because he could and would do nothing else - it was the fundamental tenet of his philosophy that he be true to himself only; Brian kept on composing symphony after symphony of rough, rugged, idiosyncratic oddness because he had decided that he would keep on doing so regardless of whether the world wanted them or not. Tippett, meanwhile, remained true to himself, his interior vision, the faith in his own dreams (literally, I mean, in the Jungian sense) and in TS Elliot's advice, never mind that he was constantly sneered at for a substandard technique.

And there's the rub - does Tippett have a substandard technique? Apparently so, if one believes someone like Elizabeth Lutyens. Does it matter? Not a jot, because any problems this causes are part of the sound that makes Tippett who he is. In a larger sense, they aren't flaws at all. Possibly Tippett even revelled in them. Maybe the last laugh is on him, not on eg Lutyens. I'm thinking of something like the way the music breaks down in the middle of the last movement of the Triple Concerto - most commentators would agree that something has gone wrong here...yet it's one of the most lovable, typically Tippettian moments in this sublime score. The 'flaws' in Tippett, as far as I sense them, tend to appear in his most ambitious pieces - and that's just where they should be, showing the strain of writing music at the limits. They bear within them the mark of the difficulty and the courage of the venture - we listen to th emusic and we know how wildly exciting and exhilarating the whole thing is, and that the composer was just as excitied to be writing it as we are to listen.

****

Re Ravel. Yes, it is odd - as I was discussing with my girlfriend - that my favourite composers are, on the one hand, these rough, warts-and-all unpolished diamonds like Brian, Janacek and Tippett, and on the other hand the most consummate, flawless craftsmen like Brahms and Ravel. But the way I feel it is this - what I value in all these composers, and all the others I love most, is that there is something desperate they have to say. Not a note is written just for the hell of it - that's something I always react badly to! The urgency of the need to compose is written all over Brian, Janacek and Tippett; in other composers I adore, like Chopin, it lives in the nuances, the countless moments of poetic enlightenment. In Brahms there is that wondrous blend of sumptuous technique and burning passion beneath the surface (but boiling over in the most controlled, effective of ways), each holding the other in balance and making both more effective for it. Give me the radiant, luminescent, 'grey pearl' (Clara Schumann) floating harmonies of op 119/1, contained in their gentle cage/shell of canonic treble and bass, over a more uncontrolled effusion. I find Brahms all the more touching for this balance, this give and take. Ravel gives us this same sort of thing, but in a different fashion. With Ravel, the poise, the archness, the humour, above all the Mask, the artifice - these things are always present, delectably so...and then (as MI says) they give way, they let something darker or more cathartic through, just for a few exquisite moments, they show us the humanity deeper within - Pan arises, the lights come on in the house at the end of the garden, the brittle sarabande boils over into a teeming, dense cadenza, the crescendo of the waltz goes too far and devours itself. Again, as with Brahms, the two sides of the equation reinforce each other. Ravel was well aware of this, he kept the balance striclty controlled (there is the interesting fact that Ravel originally let the Rachmaninov-esque passion boil over after the cadenza in the Concerto in G, but that he then cut this section ruthlessly, allowing us to hear the passion in its undisguised form for only a few bars before returning us to the mechanistic artifice of the main body of the music.

As for flaws in Ravel - well, if you search they are there I suppose, though mostly in early, flight-of-fancy piees like the Serenade Grotesque and the Sites Auriculaires. But that isn't really the point. My point, in a nutshell, is that some composers acheive expressivity by allowing themselves to show everything, at the risk of exposing the sensitive underbelly of their music, and some by the balance they keep between revealing and hiding.

I apologise for the length of this post - it says something very simple in far too verbose a way (which, I suppose, is my own flaw and my own personality ;D ) I would edit it down, but my laptop battery is low, so I'd better just post it, warts-and-all  ;D  ;D  Be indulgent, please....
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 03:26:36 PM
Another outstanding post, Luke! :) I enjoyed every word of it.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 04:13:32 PM
Quote from: Luke on March 22, 2012, 03:16:27 PM
Clearly I am as predictable as I fear, because both Mirror Image and Karl have correctly remembered the sort of thing I habitually say here ....

Not predictable, dear fellow; it's just that we pay attention to your insightful posts.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
I don't know what it is but Tippett's music just has this hold over me right now. I've been listening to other composers throughout the day, but this is day 2 of listening to more and more Tippett. Should I go see a psychologist or something? :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: springrite on March 22, 2012, 05:13:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
I don't know what it is but Tippett's music just has this hold over me right now. I've been listening to other composers throughout the day, but this is day 2 of listening to more and more Tippett. Should I go see a psychologist or something? :)

Well, this psychologist is available and he is telling you that he had done it for three days. So you are normal.

(I need you to be normal so I can say that I am!)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: springrite on March 22, 2012, 05:13:28 PM
Well, this psychologist is available and he is telling you that he had done it for three days. So you are normal.

(I need you to be normal so I can say that I am!)

:P

We are normal, Paul! I repeat: WE ARE NORMAL!!! If I keep trying to tell myself this maybe it will become a reality...ah who the heck am I kidding here? I'm nuttier than a Payday candy bar!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: eyeresist on March 22, 2012, 06:37:41 PM
Well, no-one's perfect ;)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 06:40:49 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 22, 2012, 06:37:41 PM
Well, no-one's perfect ;)

>:D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2012, 06:48:33 PM
"Please don't introduce Tippett to Greg." -Greg's wallet
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 06:54:59 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2012, 06:48:33 PM
"Please don't introduce Tippett to Greg." -Greg's wallet

Well since your wallet did mention Tippett, have you heard any of Tippett's music, Greg? Allow me to give you a little appetizer to start off with:

http://www.youtube.com/v/9X2isPqDYsc
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2012, 07:04:24 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 06:54:59 PM
Well since your wallet did mention Tippett, have you heard any of Tippett's music, Greg? Allow me to give you a little appetizer to start off with:

http://www.youtube.com/v/9X2isPqDYsc


Lovely, lovely...thanks for sharing, John.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 07:07:56 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2012, 07:04:24 PM

Lovely, lovely...thanks for sharing, John.

Thought you might enjoy that, Greg. Tippett's music can be so lyrical, but his more uptempo movements have a rhythmic vigor to them that I just love. You may want to just go to YouTube and listen to some of his music before committing to any recording right now. Luke, Edward, and myself would be happy to give you some recommendations if you want to pursue his music any further.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 22, 2012, 10:41:25 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
I don't know what it is but Tippett's music just has this hold over me right now. I've been listening to other composers throughout the day, but this is day 2 of listening to more and more Tippett. Should I go see a psychologist or something? :)

Many composers fascinate me deeply for a few days or weeks; it's how my listening often runs. But there is something both qualitatively and quantitatively different with Tippett, for me. My Tippett binges are something different, deeper, and more intense. When the Tippett bug hits me full force, I can listen to almost no one else, and it lasts, sometimes, for months! During this time I scour amazon for CDs and books, I get hold of all the scores I can, which I suppose is something I habitally do anyway, but not quite in this obsessed way....So yes, MI, you're right, there is something about him, at least in my experience!

BTW, it is lovely to see you falling for Tippett like this! What do you make of the later, post-Priam, pre-String Quartet 4 works? These are some of the toughest Tippett to crack, with their (some would say naive) mosaic forms and so on, but they are just as essentially 'him' as the Piano Concerto and Midsummer Marriage, for example. The Concerto for orchestra is one of my favourites, naive or not...and its slow movement one of Tippett's best, to stand beside those in the 2nd and 3rd symphonies, or the Triple Concerto...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 22, 2012, 11:22:21 PM
Quote from: Luke on March 22, 2012, 10:41:25 PM
Many composers fascinate me deeply for a few days or weeks; it's how my listening often runs. But there is something both qualitatively and quantitatively different with Tippett, for me. My Tippett binges are something different, deeper, and more intense. When the Tippett bug hits me full force, I can listen to almost no one else, and it lasts, sometimes, for months! During this time I scour amazon for CDs and books, I get hold of all the scores I can, which I suppose is something I habitally do anyway, but not quite in this obsessed way....So yes, MI, you're right, there is something about him, at least in my experience!

BTW, it is lovely to see you falling for Tippett like this! What do you make of the later, post-Priam, pre-String Quartet 4 works? These are some of the toughest Tippett to crack, with their (some would say naive) mosaic forms and so on, but they are just as essentially 'him' as the Piano Concerto and Midsummer Marriage, for example. The Concerto for orchestra is one of my favourites, naive or not...and its slow movement one of Tippett's best, to stand beside those in the 2nd and 3rd symphonies, or the Triple Concerto...

I really like the Concerto for Orchestra. I think it's a fascinating work. I don't think Tippett has never sounded like anyone but himself and I'm finding this out the more I listen to his music. Since you mentioned this period of post-Priam and pre-SQ 4, I like The Vision of St. Augustine, which has to be one of his major works composed, along with Concerto for Orchestra, during this time. It has some very aggressive orchestral writing that just bursts out of the darkenss and cuts like a knife's edge. I'm still in my discovery phase for this particular work and the only recording I own of it is with Tippett conducting. Is there another performance of it? Anyway, this is a work that will keep me busy for awhile as I'm trying to figure it out.

By the way, do you suppose the composers we go off the deep end with for several days/weeks/months are the composers that truly connect with us? I mean I've been on two or three Shostakovich and Prokofiev binges and I'm sure everybody remembers that Koechlin binge I went on. ::) :D The same thing is happening to me with Tippett. It seems that composers that didn't make a great impression on me the first time around: Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bruckner, Koechlin, and now Tippett are now the ones I'm actually deeply connected to for some reason or another. How odd it is the way our emotions and mind work.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on March 23, 2012, 04:10:33 AM
Quote from: tjguitar on May 20, 2007, 08:42:54 PM
Ive been listening to this double decca Tippet over the weekend:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TQ9GEKKRL._AA240_.jpg)

Interesting composer.  Don't know if I'll pick up anytihng else, as this seems to have most of the 'essential works', not bad though, not bad at all...think the concerto for double string orchestra is my favorite, but I like pretty much everything except byzantium and dance, clarion air.  Anyone know the instrumentation of the 'double string' concerto?
Yes, it's basically two string orchestras, each one comprising 1st and 2nd violins, violas, celli and double basses. The score doesn't specify numbers. Tippett uses the orchestras to create intricate passages that overlap and "talk to each other" so to speak and there are also plenty of antiphonal effects created by seating the orchestras left and right. Great work.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on March 23, 2012, 04:19:03 AM
Here's an example of the range of music that Tippett could produce. A riotous Interlude with electric guitar followed by a sublime Epilogue.
http://youtu.be/Fpm3nKXBHiw (http://youtu.be/Fpm3nKXBHiw)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 07:34:51 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 23, 2012, 04:19:03 AM
Here's an example of the range of music that Tippett could produce. A riotous Interlude with electric guitar followed by a sublime Epilogue.
http://youtu.be/Fpm3nKXBHiw (http://youtu.be/Fpm3nKXBHiw)

Yes, the Shires Suite. What a cool piece of music and I wish a major orchestra had recorded it. It would be nice to have Colin Davis conduct this work.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on March 23, 2012, 08:00:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 07:34:51 AM
Yes, the Shires Suite. What a cool piece of music and I wish a major orchestra had recorded it. It would be nice to have Colin Davis conduct this work.
You can get this recording as a download now and it's very good. Go to link and scroll down. It's second on the list. I have a private recording of the very first performance in 1970 and would dearly like to get that into circulation. Anyway here's the 1980 Unicorn disc:
http://www.klassichaus.us/LSSO.php
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 08:09:11 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 23, 2012, 08:00:42 AM
You can get this recording as a download now and it's very good. Go to link and scroll down. It's second on the list. I have a private recording of the very first performance in 1970 and would dearly like to get that into circulation. Anyway here's the 1980 Unicorn disc:
http://www.klassichaus.us/LSSO.php

Thanks, John. I'll check it out at some point.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2012, 08:21:39 AM
Between Edward's intriguing post here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg613316.html#msg613316), and finding a copy at the right price . . . trigger pulled! : )

[asin]B00004VG09[/asin]
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 08:25:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 23, 2012, 08:21:39 AM
Between Edward's intriguing post here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg613316.html#msg613316), and finding a copy at the right price . . . trigger pulled! : )

[asin]B00004VG09[/asin]

Excellent, Karl! I have this recording on the way too. :) I'm looking forward to hearing it. I hope it's nothing like The Knot Garden which is one of the worst works I've heard from Tippett.

By the way, Karl, have you heard The Midsummer Marriage?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2012, 08:31:16 AM
Not in its entirety. A friend in Buffalo performed a number or two from it on her Master's recital; the music didn't grab me at the time, but that was likely not Tippett's fault.  You know how it can be, John: if your ears are after something else, even music which you yourself might like under neutral circumstances, leaves you cold.  I should check that opera out.

I'd be interested in Luke's commentary on The Knot Garden . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 08:32:43 AM
Here'a a YouTube video of the complete opera The Ice Break:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Iq5LDfODpMM

I haven't listened to much of it, but for those of you that haven't heard it you may want to check it out.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2012, 08:35:43 AM
Thanks, but I'll await the CD.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 08:36:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 23, 2012, 08:31:16 AM
Not in its entirety. A friend in Buffalo performed a number or two from it on her Master's recital; the music didn't grab me at the time, but that was likely not Tippett's fault.  You know how it can be, John: if your ears are after something else, even music which you yourself might like under neutral circumstances, leaves you cold.  I should check that opera out.

I'd be interested in Luke's commentary on The Knot Garden . . . .


Yes, I certainly understand, Karl. I've only heard The Ritual Dances from The Midsummer Marriage and they are quite simply some of Tippett's best orchestral writing IMHO.

The Knot Garden, on the other hand, is complete torture for me...lol. I couldn't even listen through the entire opera.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: springrite on March 23, 2012, 08:37:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 23, 2012, 08:31:16 AM
Not in its entirety. A friend in Buffalo performed a number or two from it on her Master's recital; the music didn't grab me at the time, but that was likely not Tippett's fault.  You know how it can be, John: if your ears are after something else, even music which you yourself might like under neutral circumstances, leaves you cold.  I should check that opera out.

I'd be interested in Luke's commentary on The Knot Garden . . . .


I remember hearing some excerpt of the Midsummer Marriage and liking it a lot. Have not heard the whole thing, though.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 08:38:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 23, 2012, 08:35:43 AM
Thanks, but I'll await the CD.

Oh, me too. I was just putting this video out there for people who aren't risktakers like we are. :) Some people would actually like to sample the music first before buying it. ;) :D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 08:39:17 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 23, 2012, 08:37:25 AM
I remember hearing some excerpt of the Midsummer Marriage and liking it a lot. Have not heard the whole thing, though.

I'm sure you're familiar with The Ritual Dances right, Paul?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: springrite on March 23, 2012, 08:40:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 08:39:17 AM
I'm sure you're familiar with The Ritual Dances right, Paul?

Yes, that is one part that i do know.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 08:46:45 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 23, 2012, 08:40:52 AM
Yes, that is one part that i do know.

I, too, have not heard the complete opera of The Midsummer Marriage, but seeing as Ritual Dances came from this opera, I bet the rest of the music is first-rate. Hopefully, my Colin Davis recording will arrive shortly.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 09:06:16 AM
Just bought this set:

[asin]B000007NG2[/asin]

I wonder if Luke has this?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 10:47:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 21, 2012, 04:52:49 PMAllow me to list the recordings I own for you so maybe we can compare notes (so to speak):

-The Symphonies - Hickox, Bournemouth, 3 CDs, Chandos
-Symphonies 1-4, Ritual Dances, various orchestral works, C. Davis, Solti, Marriner, LSO, CSO, 5 CDs, Decca
-A Child of Our Time, Choral Works, Boyhood's End, The Knot Garden, Davis, various performers, 4 CDs, Decca
-Double Concerto, Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Andrew Davis, BBC Symphony Orch., Telarc
-The Rose Lake, The Vision of St. Augustine, C. Davis, M. Tippett, London Symphony Orchestra, RCA
-The Rose Lake, Ritual Dances, Richard Hickox, BBC National Orch. of Wales, Hybrid SACD, Chandos
-Piano Concerto, Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Richard Hickox, Howard Shelley, Bournemouth Symphony, Chandos
-Piano Concerto, Piano Sonatas, John Ogdon, C. Davis, Philharmonia Orch., EMI

Now I would like to add the following recordings to my Tippett pile :):

-The Midsummer Marriage, David Whelan, Raimund Herincx, Colin Davis, Elizabeth Bainbridge, Orchestra and Chorus of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, 2 CDs, Lyrita

-King Priam, David Atherton, London Sinfonietta, Heather Harper, Robert Tear, London Sinfonietta, 2 CDs, Chandos

-The Ice Break, David Atherton, London Sinfonetta, London Sinfonetta Chorus, Heather Harper, David Wilson-Johnson, Sanford Sylvan, Virgin Classics

-Various Works, Sir Michael Tippett (conductor), English Northern Philharmonia, BBC Philharmonic, etc., 4 CDs, Nimbus

-Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Concerto for Double String Orchestra, Ritual Dances, Andrew Davis, BBC Symphony Orchestra, Apex (originally released on Teldec)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 23, 2012, 12:26:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 09:06:16 AM
Just bought this set:

[asin]B000007NG2[/asin]

I wonder if Luke has this?
It's a useful set; a lot of the works are 'lesser' Tippett, but it's great to have some of his less common works collected together; particularly The Blue Guitar, which is a bit difficult to track down. Quality-wise, I think the Triple Concerto is probably the star work here, but everything's interesting.

Count me in as another who doesn't get The Knot Garden (or, really, its offshoot Songs for Dov). Which is probably my fault, not Tippett's.

I spent some time with Tippett today as I had the day off: The Ice Break remains impressive to me despite some weak points (and it's worth noting that both that recording and the Chandos King Priam are directed by the monstrously underrated David Atherton). I also had time to spin all but the first symphony (in the Hickox versions). I like them all but the 3rd and 4th are probably the two Tippett works that I click most viscerally with: there's something about the force with which Tippett projects his personality in these works that I find immensely satisfying. (Hickox's performances are great too in these symphonies and the 4th comes off so much better than in the rather unfortunate Solti version, though I think Colin Davis still remains my go-to 2nd. The composer's own BBC recording of the 2nd and 4th is a valuable supplement too, of course.)

I don't know if Luke agrees with me here, but I feel this sense of winding down in Tippett's music after the 4th symphony, Triple Concerto and The Ice Break (though I need to relisten to the 4th quartet to decide where I think it falls in that). I feel the music loses some of its confrontational edge--even in as dramatic a work as Byzantium--and there is an increasing tendency to recycle some of the more striking ideas from earlier works. Which isn't to say the late work is poor (though I admit to struggling to hold my attention in The Mask of Time) but it perhaps doesn't feel quite as urgently necessary to me as what came before.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 12:49:27 PM
Quote from: edward on March 23, 2012, 12:26:18 PM
It's a useful set; a lot of the works are 'lesser' Tippett, but it's great to have some of his less common works collected together; particularly The Blue Guitar, which is a bit difficult to track down. Quality-wise, I think the Triple Concerto is probably the star work here, but everything's interesting.

Count me in as another who doesn't get The Knot Garden (or, really, its offshoot Songs for Dov). Which is probably my fault, not Tippett's.

I spent some time with Tippett today as I had the day off: The Ice Break remains impressive to me despite some weak points (and it's worth noting that both that recording and the Chandos King Priam are directed by the monstrously underrated David Atherton). I also had time to spin all but the first symphony (in the Hickox versions). I like them all but the 3rd and 4th are probably the two Tippett works that I click most viscerally with: there's something about the force with which Tippett projects his personality in these works that I find immensely satisfying. (Hickox's performances are great too in these symphonies and the 4th comes off so much better than in the rather unfortunate Solti version, though I think Colin Davis still remains my go-to 2nd. The composer's own BBC recording of the 2nd and 4th is a valuable supplement too, of course.)

I don't know if Luke agrees with me here, but I feel this sense of winding down in Tippett's music after the 4th symphony, Triple Concerto and The Ice Break (though I need to relisten to the 4th quartet to decide where I think it falls in that). I feel the music loses some of its confrontational edge--even in as dramatic a work as Byzantium--and there is an increasing tendency to recycle some of the more striking ideas from earlier works. Which isn't to say the late work is poor (though I admit to struggling to hold my attention in The Mask of Time) but it perhaps doesn't feel quite as urgently necessary to me as what came before.

I can't get into Byzantium at all. I didn't like Solti's 4th either, but thought Hickox was much better in this symphony. I tend to agree with you about Colin Davis in Symphony No. 2. A very fine performance. Solti, in my opinion, is one of the lesser Tippett conductors. I don't think he truly gets the music at all. But thankfully, he didn't really record much Tippett. I think Colin Davis, Hickox, and, yes, the underrated Atherton, are all great Tippett conductors. The Knot Garden just hasn't found a way into my heart yet. I doubt it ever will because of it's musical language and, for me, lack of any kind of accessibility. Usually all it takes are some musical phrases that catch my ear and I'm in, but with The Knot Garden, I just feel like pulling my hair out instead. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
I've been listening to The Rose Lake and what a fascinating work this is. Tippett described this work, and I'm paraphrasing here because I don't know his exact words, but as "a song without words" or something to that effect.

By the way, I found this interview with Tippett for those of you who are interested:

http://www.fdavidpeat.com/interviews/tippett.htm
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 03:02:40 PM
So I re-listened to Fantasia on a Theme of Handel for piano and orchestra earlier today and I'm glad I revisited it. It has some absolutely delicious piano playing in it. The recording I have of it is Howard Shelley and Hickox. Shelley is just wonderful as usual.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 06:19:47 PM
Perhaps another reason Tippett isn't played very often, and please indulge me here for a minute, is perhaps his music is incredibly difficult to play well? The reason I'm bringing it up is there's some virtuoso trumpet playing in The Ritual Dances. In the Hickox recording I was listening to, it sounded the the BBC National Orchestra of Wales principal trumpeter was having some difficulty with this passage I'm thinking of towards the end of the work. I'll try to figure out exactly where this passage is and get back to this thread. Another work that I imagine is difficult to perform is Symphony No. 3. Anyway, I just think Tippett, with the exception of some of his string orchestra works, have sent many orchestra musicians to the woodshed to get their chops, as they say in the jazz world, into shape.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 07:26:32 PM
Luke, I'm working on several GMG members here trying to convert them over to the darkside. :) I'm working on TheGSMoeller (Greg) and madaboutmahler (Daniel), but I'm afraid madaboutmahler doesn't quite get Tippett yet, which is perfectly fine because it took me quite some time to appreciate him, but the more I listen to his music, the more I realize how much of a fool I was to dismiss him. But the honest truth, not that I haven't been honest in my posts, is that I did enjoy some Tippett before I dismissed him. I liked all of the string orchestra works and I liked The Rose Lake pretty good. I didn't like any of the symphonies, but I can honestly say I love the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I'm still digesting the 4th and really trying to recover from Solti's barbaric performance that doesn't do this work any favors. Thank goodness there is another performance available! I'll listen to Hickox's performance later on tonight. Anyway, my point is that I enjoy his music much more and I have to say there's no other composer that sounds like him. He had such a unique compositional voice. Like, Luke has mentioned, Tippett wrote from his heart and he wrote with a kind of reckless abandon that I find refreshing.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 09:08:19 PM
So I gave New Year's Suite a first-listen tonight and it's not as bad I've I thought it was going to be. The usage of electric guitars, the saxophones, and a drum kit was pretty cool. I like some of the jazzy moments of this suite. Is this something I'm going to listen to on a daily basis? Of course not, but it's a fascinating little slice of Tippettian strangeness. 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 09:54:47 PM
Just thought I would share my thoughts with revisitation to Tippett's 4th with Hickox at the helm. Wow! What a difference a sympathetic conductor can make. The symphony is obviously highly complex and I need more time with it but I seriously like it. What I like about Tippett's music is that there's always a forward momentum happening which I suppose could be contributed to his unique sense of rhythm. I read somewhere that Tippett didn't even like Solti's performance of the 4th which I find amusing since Solti was whom the symphony was dedicated to. I bet he wished he had dedicated the symphony to Colin Davis instead! Haha...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on March 24, 2012, 12:49:01 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 06:19:47 PM
Perhaps another reason Tippett isn't played very often, and please indulge me here for a minute, is perhaps his music is incredibly difficult to play well? The reason I'm bringing it up is there's some virtuoso trumpet playing in The Ritual Dances. In the Hickox recording I was listening to, it sounded the the BBC National Orchestra of Wales principal trumpeter was having some difficulty with this passage I'm thinking of towards the end of the work. I'll try to figure out exactly where this passage is and get back to this thread. Another work that I imagine is difficult to perform is Symphony No. 3. Anyway, I just think Tippett, with the exception of some of his string orchestra works, have sent many orchestra musicians to the woodshed to get their chops, as they say in the jazz world, into shape.
I think it's more about fashion that difficulty. Tippett seems out of favour for the time being. He's joined the long list of Britain's "nearly men" unfortunately. The Ritual Dances, technically, aren't particularly difficult. The LSSO had a crack at it when Michael was conducting it and compared to Ives and Walton it was fairly straight forward. It's a long time ago though!! Tippett always wrote great trumpet parts and the BBCNOW player may just have had one of those days. The Philips (Lyrita) complete Midsummer Marriage is one of the truly great recordings and the music is lyrical and attractive throughout. Nothing like The Knot Garden - which I also enjoy despite the stick it's been getting on here.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on March 24, 2012, 12:57:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 09:54:47 PM
Just thought I would share my thoughts with revisitation to Tippett's 4th with Hickox at the helm. Wow! What a difference a sympathetic conductor can make. The symphony is obviously highly complex and I need more time with it but I seriously like it. What I like about Tippett's music is that there's always a forward momentum happening which I suppose could be contributed to his unique sense of rhythm. I read somewhere that Tippett didn't even like Solti's performance of the 4th which I find amusing since Solti was whom the symphony was dedicated to. I bet he wished he had dedicated the symphony to Colin Davis instead! Haha...
Everything Solti did was precise and hard driven. There's lttle or no sentiment in his work and the more intimate, lyrical passages just seem to pass by without any attempt to relax the orchestra and give the music time to breath. Every note is pointed. What he did was excellent of its kind but just not my cup of tea. Davis is a different kettle of fish. Just compare the Prince Charles Suite recordings. Solti rips through it as if it's Russlan and Ludmilla meets Bartok. Davis gives it an Elgarian nobility and allows the music time to speak. Chalk and Cheese. I don't know whether or not Tippett actually said what is quoted about Solti's 4th but if he did I agree with him.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 24, 2012, 01:13:42 AM
Once again, so much to read! Great to see all this Tippett-love going on. I've been listening myself, but too busy to post here, as usual.

MI - I have that 4 CD set, but as individual CDs. As Edward sys, there are some minor works amongst them, but Tippett's minor works are worth hearing. Perhaps my own favourite 'minor' piece is the sonata for four horns -- playful, atmospheric, wonderfully written, gorgeous sounding, and full of the most typical Tippett sounds (his horn writing is always superb - look at the scherzo of the 3rd symphony!). Do you know that one?

Re The Knot Garden - I do enjoy it, but I find I have to work myself into the mood, immerse myself into the characters (the plot, the characters and the multi-layered implications are really vital in this piece) before I can get more out of it than just a sense of wonder at the often quite shocking sounds Tippett conjures up. With the previous two operas I DON'T - major edit!! - have such problems, even though in the case of Midsummer Marriage the plot is every bit as bizarre.* But yes, the actual sounds of The Knot Garden are pretty compelling...including that moment when it glosses Schubert: as shocking in context as anything else. I find Songs for Dov easier, more condensed, and possibly a good way into the opera itself. But I won't pretend tht either work is easy Tippett.

I agree with Edward about the later works too - he puts it so precisely that I don't feel the need to add more. Even The Rose Lake, which is obviously adorable, I find has this soft edge which is at the same time its charm and its weakness. Tippett's music has bones of steel, even in something as soft-toned as the fleeting first interlude and the ultra-melodic slow movement from the Triple Concerto - that is part of its power. But I don't quite hear them in The Rose Lake

Re the difficulty of Tippett. Sometimes, especially at his most adventurous, he is hard to play as anyone, I think - the Concerto for Orchestra, the 3rd Symphony, these are very difficult works, I suspect. The Ritual Dances aren't that hard, though they require really sensitive playing to come off well, of course.

* I should say that I am one who has faith in Tippett to the extent that I don't have problems either with his plots or his libretti, but I know most people do!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 06:35:35 AM
Wow, I'm surprised by all the action this Tippett forum has received while I was asleep! :) So much to respond to here...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 06:43:44 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 24, 2012, 12:49:01 AM
I think it's more about fashion that difficulty. Tippett seems out of favour for the time being. He's joined the long list of Britain's "nearly men" unfortunately. The Ritual Dances, technically, aren't particularly difficult. The LSSO had a crack at it when Michael was conducting it and compared to Ives and Walton it was fairly straight forward. It's a long time ago though!! Tippett always wrote great trumpet parts and the BBCNOW player may just have had one of those days. The Philips (Lyrita) complete Midsummer Marriage is one of the truly great recordings and the music is lyrical and attractive throughout. Nothing like The Knot Garden - which I also enjoy despite the stick it's been getting on here.

I need to go back and listen to Hickox's performance of the Ritual Dances because it might have not been a mistake made at all and that particular part was supposed to sound the way it does. I have several versions of Ritual Dances to compare though: Pritchard, Hickox, and now I have Tippett's own performance and Andrew Davis' recording on the way. It doesn't bother that Tippett is out of fashion, especially since I've never kept up with the trends. :D As for the difficulty of some of Tippett's music, I imagine the works Luke pointed out (Concerto for Orchestra, Symphony No. 3) present some challenges, but professional orchestras working today play such a variety of music that I'm sure those challenges can be easily met. The difficulty in Tippett's music, IMHO, is about keeping the balances right. It does take a special conductor to play Tippett well though. No doubt about it. I only hope that Andrew Davis, who has, from what I've read, been performing a good bit of Tippett, keeps that fire alive.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 06:50:40 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 24, 2012, 12:57:38 AM
Everything Solti did was precise and hard driven. There's lttle or no sentiment in his work and the more intimate, lyrical passages just seem to pass by without any attempt to relax the orchestra and give the music time to breath. Every note is pointed. What he did was excellent of its kind but just not my cup of tea. Davis is a different kettle of fish. Just compare the Prince Charles Suite recordings. Solti rips through it as if it's Russlan and Ludmilla meets Bartok. Davis gives it an Elgarian nobility and allows the music time to speak. Chalk and Cheese. I don't know whether or not Tippett actually said what is quoted about Solti's 4th but if he did I agree with him.

Yes, that's Solti's downfall in Tippett. It's too hard-edged for the music. Imagine him performing The Rose Lake? I bet he would have butchered it! I don't trust Solti in a lot of repertoire though. He should have left Tippett's music alone because he didn't know what the hell he was doing with it. Colin Davis is one of the best Tippett conductors I've heard as is Hickox. I think both conductors exhibited the passion to help realize Tippett's artistic vision. Of course, Tippett was a good conductor of his own music as well (like Britten). So his performances are definitive and Tippett actually has a good baton technique and can get the sounds he wants from the orchestra with little problem unlike Stravinsky who seemed like he was struggling a bit with conducting.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 06:52:22 AM
Luke, once again, your post was a joy to read! :D Very well done, my friend.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on March 24, 2012, 07:11:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 06:50:40 AM
Yes, that's Solti's downfall in Tippett. It's too hard-edged for the music. Imagine him performing The Rose Lake? I bet he would have butchered it! I don't trust Solti in a lot of repertoire though. He should have left Tippett's music alone because he didn't know what the hell he was doing with it. Colin Davis is one of the best Tippett conductors I've heard as is Hickox. I think both conductors exhibited the passion to help realize Tippett's artistic vision. Of course, Tippett was a good conductor of his own music as well (like Britten). So his performances are definitive and Tippett actually has a good baton technique and can get the sounds he wants from the orchestra with little problem unlike Stravinsky who seemed like he was struggling a bit with conducting.
Oops.If only this were true. He was a fine musician but his conducting was terrible. You could never relax when he was on the podium because you never knew when he was going to make a mistake. Sometimes you just came in and ignored him. Britten had great stick technique. Michael just didn't have that gift.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 24, 2012, 07:11:48 AM
Oops. If only this were true. He was a fine musician but his conducting was terrible. You could never relax when he was on the podium because you never knew when he was going to make a mistake. Sometimes you just came in and ignored him. Britten had great stick technique. Michael just didn't have that gift.

That's too bad, because his performance of Vision of St. Augustine sounded fantastic and, yes, well-conducted. He's obviously not a Colin Davis or Richard Hickox, but I look forward to hearing more of his own performances.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 06:39:43 PM
I've been at work today, but have managed to listen to Triple Concerto again and I really like this work. Some amazing textures. I'd be interested to read what Luke says about this work from a composer's point-of-view (since he can read and write music). I couldn't even begin to analyze this late Tippett masterpiece.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 07:05:25 PM
Here's a funny article written by someone who's as clueless about Michael Tippett's music as I am about the Welsh language:

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/041222-NL-tippett.html

I love the fact that Tippett's music still arouses controversy amongst conservative listeners.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on March 25, 2012, 02:42:19 AM
This may or may not be of interest :D

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Mar12/tippett_shires_lsso.htm
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 06:15:12 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 25, 2012, 02:42:19 AM
This may or may not be of interest :D

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Mar12/tippett_shires_lsso.htm

Thanks, John. I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on March 25, 2012, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 23, 2012, 07:26:32 PM
Luke, I'm working on several GMG members here trying to convert them over to the darkside. :) I'm working on TheGSMoeller (Greg) and madaboutmahler (Daniel), but I'm afraid madaboutmahler doesn't quite get Tippett yet, which is perfectly fine because it took me quite some time to appreciate him, but the more I listen to his music, the more I realize how much of a fool I was to dismiss him.

Yes... the more I hear of Tippett again, the more I am regretting those comments I made about his music to you, John! I am not even quite sure why I was so against Tippett in the first place. But the mixture of your enthusiasm and hearing excerpts from some of his pieces has made me keen to explore his music much more. I am going to start off by buying the Marriner disc you recommended to me, and I am going to do that as soon as possible! I might even make sure to listen to that before starting the Ring Cycle! Then, after the Ring Cycle, I shall pick up the recording of 'A Child of Our Time' plus a few others, maybe the symphonies. I can certainly imagine myself going into a 'Tippett' phase and enjoying his music an awful lot, maybe Tippett even becoming my favourite British composer of the 20th century, along with VW and Simpson.

So yes, I am very excited about exploring Tippett more!
John, forget everything negative I said about Tippett! I didn't mean it!!!!  :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 25, 2012, 10:11:42 AM
LONG POST ALERT....

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2012, 06:39:43 PM
I've been at work today, but have managed to listen to Triple Concerto again and I really like this work. Some amazing textures. I'd be interested to read what Luke says about this work from a composer's point-of-view (since he can read and write music). I couldn't even begin to analyze this late Tippett masterpiece.

How to start with the Triple Concerto? It is one of my favourite Tippett works, one of his most lyrical pieces and almost certainly the most sonically sumptuous.

A basic outline is:

The Triple Concerto is a more-or-less standard three movement concerto, essentially fast-slow-fast. However, Tippett separates the movements with two Interludes, during which the soloists do not play. As the soloists aren't active in the Interludes, one could say thatat these points Tippett is not advancing the musical argument, but 'merely' setting the scene or changing the atmosphere. So the first Interlude, delicate and mysterious and wonderfully scored, prepares the way for the intense lyricism of the central slow movement, whilst the second Interlude renimates the music after this deliciously poetic vision, being scored for percussion and brass alone, and thus preparing for the Elgar-ish material which opens the last movement.

More detailed points would be:

FIRST MOVEMENT
The Concerto has an opening motive, a kind of 'birth motive' very similar to that found in the 4th symphony (in fact, the general texture, the orchestration and even the basic notes are more or less the same). This motive recurs, unchanged in essentials, at key moments.  It is followed by the entrance of the soloists, one by one, violin, viola, cello, each taking turns and mapping out their own specific material. This idea here is a little like that found in the Concerto for Orchestra and the 2nd Sonata, only less rigorously applied; that is, each instrument has musical types which it 'owns' and which recur juxtaposed in all manner of ways. The violin has those slashing chords and dazzling virtuosic leaps; the viola lyrical lines in double stops; the cello a mixture of the two moods, lyrical and impetuous, but none of the same music. From the cello we move back to the violin - the sweet, high, crescendo-ing octaves falling into gentle, spicato open fifth. And finally, after this expository, introductory material, we move to the fundamental, central music of this movement, what is essentially the first subject. Here, all three soloists play together for the first time (with the lightest of accompaniments in glockenspiel, vibraphone and a few other discrete touches in the winds). This is a magical moment in Tippett, IMO - the texture here is amazing, and it is found again, almost identically though somehow with less strikingly abundant lyricism, in the 4th quartet. The viola is at the bottom, with a warm, undulating idea in sixths (sounding in 2/4, though the time signature here is 3/4) (there's a kinship between this idea and the birth motive, too, in some ways). Above it the two other soloists spin a shining web of higher notes, the violin with a wide leaping melody in 6/8, the cello with a high line featuring prominent repeated notes. I make a big deal of describing this passage because it is so central to the piece, even though it never lasts for very long.

The mood so far has been mostly lyrical, sometime skittish, sometimes rich, impulsive, all in the shadow of that dark opening birth motive in which the horns feature prominently. After that point we have heard only the soloists, lightly accompanied by strings, winds and glints of percussion. Suddenly all this changes, with echoing brass fanfares, along with percussion slaps and snaps.. A glowing, dancing transition in winds, mallets, tuned gongs and bells leads into what one could call the second subject - another lyrical one. Here we see a principle which will be expanded in the slow movement - the varying presentations of a long lyrical theme, split in various ways through the soloist. Accompanied by rich harp figures, the theme itself features prominent, repeated falling ninths and twisting quintuplet, and it is always heard on two of the soloists, whilst the third dances  in 'light, delicate, accompanying' figures across the strings. Each combination of the soloists 'gets to' play the melody - first vioin and cello, then cello and viola, then viola and violin, and, briefly, finally violin and cello again. And at this point we reach one more wonderful idea, totally unexpected.

A hum starts up, created by an exquisitely orchestrated presentation of a single chord spelt, from top to bottom, E, D sharp, B, A, E. This chord is maintained in delicately pattering patterns of pizzicato strings (this is an idea which is important in this concerto). Above it, reinforcing it, we hear a bar of rich harp and mallets (bells, vibes, marimba and tuned gong again), and then a bar of 'brassy, nasal' horn, repeating an E in an insistent crescendo, supported by the timp. This page looks uncannily like the transcriptions one sees in ethonomusicology books of gamelans - uncanny except for the fact that it was indeed prompted by this sort of music example, in Cloin McPhee's book Music in Bali (IIRC). The four-note mode, the fast, interlocking, cross-rhythmed patterns, the resonant, glowing mallet sounds - all these are directly inspired by the gamelan, and they pave the way, here, for the much more sumptuous gamelan sounds of the slow movement. At this point, however, the are interrupted by 'strong, brilliant' dancing figures from the soloists (the first time they actually play entirely homophonically). The pattern recurs three times, until finally, the brass, who haven't feautred much apart from their earlier fanfares, break in once more, developing the soloists' dancing figure into a 'crisp, bright' dance of their own. A 'bell-like, brilliant' bar of link from winds and mallets (glock, bells, marimba, vibes) and suddenly, we are back at the opening birth-motive, in unchanged rhythm and orchestration, but one tone higher

What happens now is the development section. It is, fundamentally, about the superimposition of elements which had previously been heard separately (again, look at the Concerto for Orchestra for a much more rigorous application of this idea). So, after the birth motive, instead of the gradual introduction of the soloists, they burst in together, the cello playing the birth motive again, the other two playing versions of previously-heard figuration

I won't go into too much detail about the rest of the movement - you will hear all the ideas you've already heard again. But notice the formal logic with which things are presented. Soon after the passage I last described, the viola takes a solo, but this time accompanied; then we hear the initial brass fanfares again, with a string figure underpinning the this time. Then the cello takes a longer solo, accompanied again (and this time by its solo colleagues, too). This solo starts with the cello's initial material, but then (I love this moment) for ten bars 'singing, passionate' plays a never-before-heard and never-heard-again melody, accompanied by some amazing scoring in the winds. More previously heard material - the link to the second subject, and the second subject itself, and now something else completely new - an odd murmuring in the clarinet/bass clarinets accompanying a long solo in the violin (see how the formal pattering plays out?) which finishes in the same way as it did earlier in the concerto, in such a way as to lead into the first subjecto, presented in the same way by the soloists alone, and extended into a few stormy bars in which the timps join. This is followed, unaltered, (importantly - it doesn't change, it just acts as a kind of magical catalyst, I think) by the 'gamelan' episode from earlier, which as before is followed by the dancing brass fanfare and the link bar...which this time is echoed by an approximation of itself in the soloists; the link bar and its echo are heard again, higher, there is a pause but no double bar, and we are in...

INTERLUDE 1

Sorry to be so wordy about movement I. I wanted to give an idea of the way the layer, cutting and juxtapositions work in this piece. There is no real development of ideas at all; the development takes place in their combination. Interlude 1 is just as fascinating (well, I find it fascinating anyway!) but simpler. It is really one of Tippett's most delicate, tender, fragrant beautiful moments, a garden of exquisite sonorites. To remind you, the soloists do not play in this movement. Almost everything takes place over gentle lapping murmurings in strings, harp, mallet instruments, celesta etc. Take that as read. Over this sort of thing the following happens:

Alto flute solo
Horn duet
Bass oboe solo  (note the dry, quiet pizzicati in the background)

Again just a pause, no double bar, and we are in the middle movement

SECOND MOVEMENT

The second movement is like the fulfilment of the promise of the Interlude. Here, in addition to the rapt sonorities, we have the soloists, singing one of the most intense, lyrical melodies in modern music (actually, I can't think of a more intense, lyrical melody in modern music...). This melody is presented rather like the second subject of the first movement - the soloists always play in octave, although not always the octave you'd expect (the cello often takes the middle one, about 2 octaves above middle C). Underneath there is a gorgeous swell, rolling like a deep wave, soft timps and mallets to the fore, and above the deep hum of a tuned gong in A flat, a heavy, incense-laden connection with that gamelan music in the first movement, but now deeply, sleepily sensuous. Another little orientalism here, almost inaudible - whilst the soloists sing their song, the orchestral violas pluck a little glissando, which is marked 'sitar-like' in the score.

Anyway, this movement is effectively a rondo, with this music for all three soloists plus the deep, gong-laden swell as the A theme, and most episodes featuring the soloists, one by one. If I lay it out as a schema, and you compare it to the schema I gave for the interlude, you'll see a fascinating thing, which I've never read about in my books on Tippett.

A - soloists plus orchestra
B - cello solo, duetting prominently with bass oboe
A - the theme now in the wind, the solosits decorating in octaves
C - a build up of ostinati, fanfare like figures in the wind and trumpets over FIVE tuned gongs (in a whole tone wedge from A flat up to E - tht is, from the gong note used most prominently in this movement to that used most prominently in the first movement). The gongs are sustained by horns and trombones
D - violin solo, duetting prominently with alto flute
C
E - violin and viola duet, with prominent accompaniment from pattering, quiet pizzicati
A - the  theme back with the soloists, but garlanded with a celesta solo now
F - the music dies away with pizzicati patterings again....and then, finish...
G - viola solo, duetting (trio-ing?) prominently with horn duet, and instantly echoing itself quietly, 'distant', and with the horns muted

Note, then, how the prominent wind solos of the interlude find fulfilment in the main movement as they partner the soloists in their own music

Again, no double bar, just a pause, and then

INTERLUDE 2

An echo of the brass and percussion fanfares in the first movement, maybe. The music wakes from its slumber with crsip clicks and snaps in the percussion - wood blocks, claves, castanets, and a hi-hat playing something that is essentially a swing rhythm. The music remains percussion only, and almost pitchless (apart from the tight timp rolls on E) until trumpets and trombone enter with skirling calls. Again, in a link to the first movments fanfares, where the horns echoe the trumpets, here the trombone echo the trumpets. The musi dies on the timps. Again no double bar, and we enter

MOVEMENT 3
Here we start with another moment of dark lyricism, on a bed of the lowest strings and winds. The soloists enter one by one, first the cello, gradually rising, joined by the viola, and finally the violin. A cresecndo, and the movement proper begins:

This is a melody in the orchestral strings, marked 'singing: rich, golden.' It is quite grandiose, at least at first, and I've seen it refered to as resembling Elgar; I tend to think of it in those terms too, though more for its attitude than its actual sound. For a while solosits and orchestra exchange this melody, and then suddenly the music changes mood entirely.

The dry, pattering pizzicati are back, and over the top repeated insistent notes in wind and brass crescendo in seemingly unrelated tempo. This is in fact very similar to the gamelan music from movement 1, whose every other bar also featured a repeated note crescendoing in this same sort of rhythm, over single-harmony patterings in mallets and pizzicati strings. I find this section quite overwhelming, as the repeated notes grow more and more insistent, enticing the soloists to join in, which they do, with an angular, agile, joyful dance music over the top of everything. The music tumbles, unexpectedly, into...

The birth motive from movement 1. This is presented exactly as at the opening, and back at its originl pitch, a true recapitulation, but it continues in the soloists as it did on its second appearance in the opening movement, almosr unaltered (though at the lower pitch implied by the transposition of the birth motive. At the point at which this music broke off in the first movement, Tippett links to the music for the soloists from later in that movement, the music which leads up to the reappearance of the first subject and beyond. All of this is reheard, right up to what I called the 'stormy bars' where the timps join...and even beyond, because just as in the first movement here the gamelan music returns, exactly as it always is, at the same pitch. The 'stormy' music is exchanged with it once (the last we hear of the soloists) but it returns, quickly fragments, and, with a thwack on E, the concerto is over.

That last movement is odd, with its never-again-heard introduction, its never-again-heard 'Elgar' melody, its never-again-heard accumulation of repeated note ostinati, and then its sudden, condensed recap of the most salient music of the first movement. Possibly, it is one of those flawed parts of Tippett's oeuvre we were discussing. Certainly Meirion Bowen, Tippett's biggest and most committed advocate, thinks so. After the premiere Tippett rewrote quite a chunk of this movement because it just 'didn't register,' and maybe it still remains unbalanced. But personally I love this waywardness, I find it a compulsive, fascinating listen

Anyway, hope this gives some idea of the processes Tippett is working with in this most beautiful of pieces, and that it doesn't get in the way of enjoyment!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on March 25, 2012, 05:00:12 PM
I just listened to @2mins of the first movements of the Symphonies 1-3. Never having heard them, I offer my first impressions:

No.1: my first thought was, Sessions No.2. Very Neo-Classical, spritely rhythms.

No.2: some strange Gladiator Movie? Roman brass fifth fanfare chugging with lightning fast string runs. Very energetic!

No.3: Wow, that's noisy! Clangorous. ill tempered!

I was certainly impressed to save for later. They were are three very 'fresh', all in their own way, too. I did sense the extreme busyness, like Hindemith on... what?, meth?,... definitely highly amped and hallucinating slightly. The string section in No.2 certainly gets a workout! I was certainly turned on to his personal demands for 'purity' of expression from the players,..hmm, Ives?, Langaard?, Brian?...  idiosynch...spell check not working...

Anyhow, very fresh. I'm staying away from No.4 just because. YT guided me next to Wellesz's 8-9, which also added to the feeling, reminding me of Searle and Frankel and and and

I think it's the school that starts with an 'L' thing. I can smell the English Spring Afternoon Rain! :-* 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
Wow, Luke! What an incredible post you made today! Man, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me. I know you're a composer, but you should seriously write some notes for some record companies to accompany their booklets. This break-down of Tippett's Triple Concerto could be used and you can get royalities! ;) :D Anyway, thank you for your time and the effort you put into your posts. Always thoughtful and articulate.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 06:13:30 PM
Definitely going to listen along with Luke's analysis there.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 06:22:50 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 25, 2012, 09:51:08 AM
Yes... the more I hear of Tippett again, the more I am regretting those comments I made about his music to you, John! I am not even quite sure why I was so against Tippett in the first place. But the mixture of your enthusiasm and hearing excerpts from some of his pieces has made me keen to explore his music much more. I am going to start off by buying the Marriner disc you recommended to me, and I am going to do that as soon as possible! I might even make sure to listen to that before starting the Ring Cycle! Then, after the Ring Cycle, I shall pick up the recording of 'A Child of Our Time' plus a few others, maybe the symphonies. I can certainly imagine myself going into a 'Tippett' phase and enjoying his music an awful lot, maybe Tippett even becoming my favourite British composer of the 20th century, along with VW and Simpson.

So yes, I am very excited about exploring Tippett more!
John, forget everything negative I said about Tippett! I didn't mean it!!!!  :)

Daniel, my friend, all is forgotten. 8) Tippett could very well become one of your favorites and if he does I'm certainly proud for that, but let me just give a bit of word of caution, there are some Tippett works that are bound to give you some trouble like his Symphony No. 3 or the Concerto for Orchestra, but I think if you try and keep an open-mind, then the music will take hold you. Tippett walks a fine line between two extremes: on one hand, you have a lyrical poet writing out one beautiful line after another and then, on the other hand, you have a radical, free-thinker who isn't afraid of causing some mischief every once in awhile with his wild musical ideas. Anyway, I think you'll enjoy his music, but please take my word of caution into account. Tippett's music is an acquired taste as you can read from this thread. There are only a few of us here who really enjoy his music, but I hope you can connect with his music in some way.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on March 25, 2012, 06:59:23 PM
Hrmph >:D, I thought MY analysis was much more probing. >:(
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 07:10:02 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 25, 2012, 06:59:23 PM
Hrmph >:D, I thought MY analysis was much more probing. >:(

Don't you worry, snyprrr. I liked your post too! :D Love your way with words. Are you enjoying Tippett so far?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 07:26:49 PM
Enjoying the melodic-cascades of Tippett's Piano Concerto (1955) mvt. II...

http://www.youtube.com/v/ykaaarlPprM&feature=related
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 07:33:00 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 07:26:49 PM
Enjoying the melodic-cascades of Tippett's Piano Concerto (1955) mvt. II...

http://www.youtube.com/v/ykaaarlPprM&feature=related

We like to see larger videos here! ;) Anyway, Greg, I'm glad you're enjoy the Piano Concerto. It's certainly a gorgeous work isn't it? That video is of this performance from this recording:

[asin]B00005M0JQ[/asin]

Go ahead, Greg. I know you want to buy this. 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 07:34:34 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 25, 2012, 06:59:23 PM
Hrmph >:D, I thought MY analysis was much more probing. >:(

Quote from: snyprrr on March 25, 2012, 05:00:12 PM
I was certainly turned on to his personal demands for 'purity' of expression from the players,..hmm, Ives?, Langaard?, Brian?... 


I enjoyed this probe.   :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 07:33:00 PM
We like to see larger videos here! ;) Anyway, Greg, I'm glad you're enjoy the Piano Concerto. It's certainly a gorgeous work isn't it? That video is of this performance from this recording:

[asin]B00005M0JQ[/asin]

Go ahead, Greg. I know you want to buy this. 8)

Thanks for the link, John. I'm enjoying the way Tippett incorporates the piano in this piece. Feels less of a virtuosic piece with the accompaniment answering the soloist's actions...it's more of a relationship between them, it's very balanced and I appreciate that.

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 07:46:10 PM
Thanks for the link, John. I'm enjoying the way Tippett incorporates the piano in this piece. Feels less of a virtuosic piece with the accompaniment answering the soloist's actions...it's more of a relationship between them, it's very balanced and I appreciate that.

Both of Tippett's concerti are like that. It's a marriage between the soloist and orchestra and, like you said, it's not just about showboating. It carries a narrative, which, for me, are what the best concerti do like Berg's Violin Concerto or Szymanowski's VCs.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 08:01:31 PM
Enjoyed The Ritual Dances , not as much as the Piano Concerto right now, but that's only based on one listen, there is much to decipher with Dances. But I'm eager to give another go.

Haven't dived into Symphony #3 yet.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 08:15:51 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 08:01:31 PM
Enjoyed The Ritual Dances , not as much as the Piano Concerto right now, but that's only based on one listen, there is much to decipher with Dances. But I'm eager to give another go.

Haven't dived into Symphony #3 yet.

The Ritual Dances are so freakin' good. 8) On a purely listening level, they are just so enjoyable and probably one of the more accessible Tippett works, but I can't wait to hear The Miidsummer Marriage (the work in which this music derived from). There are composers that just hit me right away and then there are composers, like Tippett, who I liked a little bit to begin with but wasn't all that attracted to the music after listening to a lot of it, but these more "difficult" composers end up being my favorites. The same thing happened to me with Bruckner, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Koechlin, and Villa-Lobos. Now my enthusiasm for Ravel, Bartok, Sibelius, and Vaughan Williams, composers who I had such a large attachment to, have become composers I seldom listen to although I still love their music, I guess it's just that I've bcome so familiar with their music and that their compositional styles don't challenge me. Is this normal with any other listeners here? I guess it's just this huge cycle and I keep going around and around until fall over from dizziness. :D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on March 26, 2012, 08:09:49 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 06:22:50 PM
Daniel, my friend, all is forgotten. 8) Tippett could very well become one of your favorites and if he does I'm certainly proud for that, but let me just give a bit of word of caution, there are some Tippett works that are bound to give you some trouble like his Symphony No. 3 or the Concerto for Orchestra, but I think if you try and keep an open-mind, then the music will take hold you. Tippett walks a fine line between two extremes: on one hand, you have a lyrical poet writing out one beautiful line after another and then, on the other hand, you have a radical, free-thinker who isn't afraid of causing some mischief every once in awhile with his wild musical ideas. Anyway, I think you'll enjoy his music, but please take my word of caution into account. Tippett's music is an acquired taste as you can read from this thread. There are only a few of us here who really enjoy his music, but I hope you can connect with his music in some way.

Thanks, John. Yes, I can imagine Tippett becoming a favourite, definitely! I think I should get on well with his style. Thank you also for the caution, I probably will not listen to either of those works just yet then. There are many others I should listen to first anyway! Looking forward to getting started!

And wow, I agree, great post, Luke!

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2012, 08:15:51 PM
Now my enthusiasm for Ravel, Bartok, Sibelius, and Vaughan Williams, composers who I had such a large attachment to, have become composers I seldom listen to although I still love their music, I guess it's just that I've bcome so familiar with their music and that their compositional styles don't challenge me. Is this normal with any other listeners here? I guess it's just this huge cycle and I keep going around and around until fall over from dizziness. :D

I think I see what you mean, John. With Mahler, I feel that I know his music so well, I cam almost imagine it all in mind whenever I want to, so I don't actually sit down to listen to Mahler too often. Maybe it's a time issue too actually. ;) But whenever I do, it's always a treat and I never tire of the works, and he always remains my favourite, however much I listen to him.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 26, 2012, 12:44:30 PM
This rejuventated thread has had me re-reading Ian Kemp's great biography of Tippett (the single best book about him, for anyone wondering). A couple of pertinent points in response to some recent posts, one about Tippett-as-conductor, and one about the Triple Concerto, which amplifies some of what I was saying yesteray, and adds some interesting back-story which I had forgotten. I will post it later if I manage to find the time tonight!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2012, 12:57:17 PM
Aye, it was the Kemp which I read, so many years ago, in St Petersburg.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 26, 2012, 05:57:24 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 26, 2012, 08:09:49 AM
Thanks, John. Yes, I can imagine Tippett becoming a favourite, definitely! I think I should get on well with his style. Thank you also for the caution, I probably will not listen to either of those works just yet then. There are many others I should listen to first anyway! Looking forward to getting started!

And wow, I agree, great post, Luke!

I think I see what you mean, John. With Mahler, I feel that I know his music so well, I cam almost imagine it all in mind whenever I want to, so I don't actually sit down to listen to Mahler too often. Maybe it's a time issue too actually. ;) But whenever I do, it's always a treat and I never tire of the works, and he always remains my favourite, however much I listen to him.

As I said to you in an earlier post, Tippett takes time and sometimes it just takes not listening to his music for a year. :) I don't think you will run into the same issues I did of course as everyone is different in what they're attracted to or what appeals to them. I suppose my biggest problem with Tippett was just trying to get more familiar with his middle and later periods as these are quite different from his first period which contained works like Concerto for Double String Orchestra and The Midsummer Marriage. If you get a chance to listen to the Ritual Dances from this opera then don't hesitate, they are fantastic. One of the works that has me completely enchanted from start to finish has been The Rose Lake. This is the last work Tippett composed and I urge you to hear this as it's one of the most organic, serene, and beautiful late 20th Century works I know. The whole work is like an orchestral metamorphasis of sorts as the writing depicts how this lake's water turns to pink, but it's deeper of course than this. Tippett described the work as "a song without words for orchestra."
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on March 27, 2012, 08:15:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 26, 2012, 05:57:24 PM
As I said to you in an earlier post, Tippett takes time and sometimes it just takes not listening to his music for a year. :) I don't think you will run into the same issues I did of course as everyone is different in what they're attracted to or what appeals to them. I suppose my biggest problem with Tippett was just trying to get more familiar with his middle and later periods as these are quite different from his first period which contained works like Concerto for Double String Orchestra and The Midsummer Marriage. If you get a chance to listen to the Ritual Dances from this opera then don't hesitate, they are fantastic. One of the works that has me completely enchanted from start to finish has been The Rose Lake. This is the last work Tippett composed and I urge you to hear this as it's one of the most organic, serene, and beautiful late 20th Century works I know. The whole work is like an orchestral metamorphasis of sorts as the writing depicts how this lake's water turns to pink, but it's deeper of course than this. Tippett described the work as "a song without words for orchestra."

Thank you, John! I look forward to starting my exploration into his music! Your enthusiasm for The Rose Lake has made me very keen to hear it... maybe I'll go for a purchase of it this week. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 27, 2012, 06:05:59 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 27, 2012, 08:15:55 AM
Thank you, John! I look forward to starting my exploration into his music! Your enthusiasm for The Rose Lake has made me very keen to hear it... maybe I'll go for a purchase of it this week. :)

You're welcome, Daniel.

Thankfully, there are two outstanding recordings of The Rose Lake to choose from: Hickox on Chandos and C. Davis on RCA. Both of them have wonderful couplings. The Davis has The Vision of St. Augustine which is a work for baritone and orchestra and a hell of fun piece to listen to. The Hickox has Ritual Dances from The Midsummer Marriage, which is a very popular work of Tippett's, but Hickox turns in a great performance. I would probably go with the Colin Davis as I think it has the less common coupling, which, by the way, The Vision of St. Augustine is conducted by Tippett himself. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 27, 2012, 07:05:15 PM
I like Praeludium for brass, bell, and percussion. I think I read a review where Hurwitz called it an ugly, little hairball or something to that effect. For some reason or another, I like it anyway. It has a kind of strange hold over me. Almost nostalgic to me for some reason. I may recall hearing something that sounds like the main melody of the work when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on March 28, 2012, 09:03:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 27, 2012, 06:05:59 PM
You're welcome, Daniel.

Thankfully, there are two outstanding recordings of The Rose Lake to choose from: Hickox on Chandos and C. Davis on RCA. Both of them have wonderful couplings. The Davis has The Vision of St. Augustine which is a work for baritone and orchestra and a hell of fun piece to listen to. The Hickox has Ritual Dances from The Midsummer Marriage, which is a very popular work of Tippett's, but Hickox turns in a great performance. I would probably go with the Colin Davis as I think it has the less common coupling, which, by the way, The Vision of St. Augustine is conducted by Tippett himself. :)

Thank you, John. I'll buy the C.Davis. By the way, another Tippett disc I might as well buy is the A.Davis disc (with the Double Concerto, Ritual Dances etc). Should I?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 28, 2012, 03:06:42 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on March 28, 2012, 09:03:22 AM
Thank you, John. I'll buy the C.Davis. By the way, another Tippett disc I might as well buy is the A.Davis disc (with the Double Concerto, Ritual Dances etc). Should I?

The Andrew Davis recording is decent, Daniel. The performances aren't as strong as those from Marriner and Hickox. It's a pretty good recording and I'm glad I own it, but it isn't as well played as I would have liked it. But, it's your call of course.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 28, 2012, 03:10:40 PM
I finished listening to The Midsummer Marriage this morning and I'm really impressed with it. It's really a gorgeous opera. It could very well be one of the greatest British operas ever written. I haven't heard King Priam yet but I'm quite anxious to listen to it. Yet again, the orchestration from Tippett in this opera amazed me from start to finish. Colin Davis led a spectacular performance that will be hard to top. Lyrita's sound was clear and vivid. The soloists and orchestra were well-defined. I'm going to revisit this opera soon. I'm also going to be giving The Ice Break a listen soon as well.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2012, 09:41:24 AM
Since there's not a proper biography located in this thread, I figured I would supply one via Arkivmusic:

A composer who came to music relatively late in life, Sir Michael Tippett has come to be regarded as one of the most original and important British composers of the twentieth century. Tippett brought a highly individual interpretation to twentieth century neo-Classicism, writing in all the principal genres. His compositions are characterized by a strong rhythmic vitality and a complexity of the basically tonal harmonic language, and were a vehicle for the articulation of his personal views of philosophical, social, and personal issues.

Tippett spent his childhood in Wetherden, a small village in Suffolk where his parents moved shortly after he was born. At the age of 13, he won a scholarship to Fettes College in Edinburgh. However, he disliked Fettes, and in 1920 transferred to Stamford Grammar School in Lincolnshire. Aside from piano lessons, Tippett received no musical training in his childhood. Despite this, after leaving Stamford, he expressed an interest in becoming a composer. At first, he decided to train as a professional pianist, staying on at Stamford so that he could continue to study with Frances Tinkler. However, in the summer of 1923 he left to begin study at London's Royal College of Music. While at the RCM, he studied composition with Charles Wood and C.H. Kitson, as well as piano with Aubin Raymar and conducting with Sargent and Boult.

When he left the RCM in 1928, Tippett settled in Oxted, Surrey. In 1929, he asked to teach French part-time at the local preparatory school. Thus began a series of occupations, which gave him money to live on, as well as some freedom to compose. In 1930, he gave a concert of his own works, which he felt highlighted the relative immaturity of his technique. With this in mind, Tippett began to study counterpoint and free composition with R.O. Morris. Soon after completing his lessons with Morris, in July 1932, Tippett was asked to run the music at an annual work camp in north Yorkshire. Musically, these experiences were positive; however, for Tippett, a political leftist, the miserable conditions encountered at the work-camps inspired an even more radical commitment. Eventually, Tippett came to espouse a strictly pacifist viewpoint. He centered his activities for the unemployed in London at Morley College, where in 1933 he was asked to conduct what later became the South London Orchestra, a group formed specifically to give unemployed musicians the opportunity to continue playing. A year later he also began conducting two choirs which were run by the Royal Arsenal Cooperative Society. In the summer of 1940 the South London Orchestra was disbanded. In October, after Morley College was almost destroyed in an air raid and the director of music was evacuated from London, Tippett was asked to become director of music. In November 1940, Tippett joined the Peace Pledge Union. After he received his call-up papers he registered as a conscientious objector. His case was heard in 1942, and he was ordered to non-combatant military duties. Tippett refused to comply, believing that he could best serve his country as a musician. He was sentenced to three months imprisonment, but qualified for a one-third remission.

In 1951 Tippett resigned from Morley College. Aside from working as a broadcaster at the BBC, he devoted himself entirely to composition. Tippett was knighted in 1966, and in 1979 he was made a Companion of Honour. He died peacefully at home on January 8, 1998.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on March 29, 2012, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2012, 09:41:24 AM
Since there's not a proper biography located in this thread, I figured I would supply one via Arkivmusic:

A composer who came to music relatively late in life, Sir Michael Tippett has come to be regarded as one of the most original and important British composers of the twentieth century. Tippett brought a highly individual interpretation to twentieth century neo-Classicism, writing in all the principal genres. His compositions are characterized by a strong rhythmic vitality and a complexity of the basically tonal harmonic language, and were a vehicle for the articulation of his personal views of philosophical, social, and personal issues.

Tippett spent his childhood in Wetherden, a small village in Suffolk where his parents moved shortly after he was born. At the age of 13, he won a scholarship to Fettes College in Edinburgh. However, he disliked Fettes, and in 1920 transferred to Stamford Grammar School in Lincolnshire. Aside from piano lessons, Tippett received no musical training in his childhood. Despite this, after leaving Stamford, he expressed an interest in becoming a composer. At first, he decided to train as a professional pianist, staying on at Stamford so that he could continue to study with Frances Tinkler. However, in the summer of 1923 he left to begin study at London's Royal College of Music. While at the RCM, he studied composition with Charles Wood and C.H. Kitson, as well as piano with Aubin Raymar and conducting with Sargent and Boult.

When he left the RCM in 1928, Tippett settled in Oxted, Surrey. In 1929, he asked to teach French part-time at the local preparatory school. Thus began a series of occupations, which gave him money to live on, as well as some freedom to compose. In 1930, he gave a concert of his own works, which he felt highlighted the relative immaturity of his technique. With this in mind, Tippett began to study counterpoint and free composition with R.O. Morris. Soon after completing his lessons with Morris, in July 1932, Tippett was asked to run the music at an annual work camp in north Yorkshire. Musically, these experiences were positive; however, for Tippett, a political leftist, the miserable conditions encountered at the work-camps inspired an even more radical commitment. Eventually, Tippett came to espouse a strictly pacifist viewpoint. He centered his activities for the unemployed in London at Morley College, where in 1933 he was asked to conduct what later became the South London Orchestra, a group formed specifically to give unemployed musicians the opportunity to continue playing. A year later he also began conducting two choirs which were run by the Royal Arsenal Cooperative Society. In the summer of 1940 the South London Orchestra was disbanded. In October, after Morley College was almost destroyed in an air raid and the director of music was evacuated from London, Tippett was asked to become director of music. In November 1940, Tippett joined the Peace Pledge Union. After he received his call-up papers he registered as a conscientious objector. His case was heard in 1942, and he was ordered to non-combatant military duties. Tippett refused to comply, believing that he could best serve his country as a musician. He was sentenced to three months imprisonment, but qualified for a one-third remission.

In 1951 Tippett resigned from Morley College. Aside from working as a broadcaster at the BBC, he devoted himself entirely to composition. Tippett was knighted in 1966, and in 1979 he was made a Companion of Honour. He died peacefully at home on January 8, 1998.
Addition: In 1965 he became the patron of the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra, a post he held until he died.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2012, 02:10:40 PM
I really like the orchestration by Meirion Bowen, a Tippett scholar, of The Heart's Assurance. I know Edward mentioned he thought the work lost some intimacy with the orchestra and he may very well be right BUT I still like it and think it's beautiful. There's some lovely harp playing that's quite hypnotic and overall I like the orchestral textures that accompany the voice.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2012, 03:20:41 PM
The Ice Break and King Priam are around the corner in my listening pile...

Edit: I wonder if Karl has received his copy yet of The Ice Break...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM
I just can't get enough of Tippett's music. Whether it be The Rose Lake, The Midsummer Marriage, A Child of Our Time, all of the symphonies, Concerto for Double String Orchestra, Triple Concerto, The Vision of St. Augustine, etc. I'm deeply attached to this music. As Luke has mentioned, there is a sense of great humanity in his music. He took so many risks and I love him the more for it. He didn't sit comfortably on one style, he put his own individuality on everything he composed. There are so many listeners who prefer Britten to Tippett and it's hard not to argue that Britten was an outstanding composer, but I listen to Tippett's music more than I every have Britten's. I never went through a full-blown Britten phase, but Tippett has this psycho hold over me that I just thirst for his music on a daily basis. One of the things I like about Tippett is his use of polytonality, which isn't a stranger to me since I love so much of Milhaud's music, but Tippett has took this compositional technique to newer heights I think. I'm thinking of Symphonies 2-4 especially. Anyway, I just can't pull myself away from Tippett and I find it so interesting that I don't even want to pull myself away from his music.

I listened to Hickox's performance of A Child of Our Time last night and all I have to say is WOW....
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 30, 2012, 12:03:09 AM
Still have lots of things I want to add here, such as those I mentioned a few days ago but never got time to post. Am nearly at the end of a hectic period of work and will be able to indulge in GMG a little more for a few days from today   :)   :)  :)

As I said, this thread and MI's current and wholly understandable Tippett craze has put me into a similar state, and when I get Tippettine it hits me strongly! (e.g. ordered a libretto of Mask of Time a few days ago, because it was signed - it arrived yesterday, and what a thrill to have the great man's writing there in front of me! another score I haven't previously had ought to arrive today). Re-reading Ian Kemp again is a wonderful experience. I can't recommend his book highly enough. Looking through the mini-biog posted by MI in the light of having recently finished the extended, in-depth biographical part of Kemp's book reminds me how much can be hidden in a seemingly harmless phrase - for 'However, he disliked Fettes, and in 1920 transferred to Stamford Grammar School' read 'he was so traumatised by the sadistic regime at Fettes that for years afterwards he could not talk about it.' And for 'Despite this, after leaving Stamford' read 'Tippett didn't finish his schooling as the headmaster at Stamford threw him out just short of the end of his time for refusing to comply with the school's religious practices'! Events in his schooldays, in which his principled stands got him into serious trouble, are reflected on a much more public scale in his imprisonment in the war. As a conscientious objector he was given every chance of staying out of prison, but took a rigid stance that made it impossible for him not be thrown inside for a while. Some (many? most?) will see this as foolishness on his behalf, and maybe it was from a practical, quotidian point-of-view, but it is important because it is indicative of the kind of man he was - very sure of his principles and unafraid to see them through, even at personal cost - and thus of the kind of composer he was. In his art as in his life, Tippett was unafraid to take the consequences of his decisions, and for years had to suffer these thoroughly and demonstrably undeserved tags - naive, flawed technique, amateur, embarrassing libretti etc.

BTW for anyone who seriously believes that Tippett had a weak technique, can I simply point them in the direction of something like the masterly 3rd string quartet, with its fluent, expressive, dancing fugues and perfectly articulated, deeply-felt form. And, yes, though I may be rambling, I should note that while 'deeply-felt form' is an odd idea (deeply-felt melody, deeply-felt harmony, yes, but deeply-felt form??) it is, interestingly, perfectly applicable to Tippett, who felt that form should be part of and suitable to the expressive intent of each movement (he loved fugue, for instance, for the specific reason that it was mobile and ever-changing, yet always suffused with the same basic emotive force). I don't know of a composer who pondered over the issues of form, structure and movement order as much as Tippett, who was always bearing in mind his idol Beethoven, who is, perhaps, another composer of whose music one can speak of 'deeply-felt form'. I think this is part of the reason for Tippett's greatness and the strength of his music - this iron-strong formal technique, and this understanding of how to frame emotion formally, how to distance it or let it in etc. etc
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2012, 08:17:27 AM
Another wonderful post, Luke. :) I really need to get that biography of Tippett. Obviously, a short write-up about his life won't do it full justice, but those that were interested, I wanted to at least put some kind of biography on this thread so readers new to the composer would have some sense of his history.

Anyway, as far as his technique goes, he has plenty just listen to the last movement of Divertimento on 'Sellinger's Round' or the first movement of Symphony No. 2.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2012, 02:39:23 PM
The last movement of Divertimento on 'Sellinger's Round' sounds like it could have belonged in Stravinsky's Dumbarton Oaks. Very cool! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2012, 05:03:15 PM
Listening to this right now:

[asin]B000000AXV[/asin]

First impressions so far is this is a marvelous work. So much different than The Midsummer Marriage, but no less involving. It shows Tippett's compositional mastery. I admire the way he could change his style and yet he still retained his remarkable individuality as a composer.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2012, 07:21:10 PM
Here's an amusing thought...

(http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-BE022641.jpg?size=67&uid=1aa49359-eef0-4ea9-a5fb-b9bab329fdd4)

Solti: Okay, before we begin to play Tippett's Symphony No. 4, I want you to do everything in your power to ruin this piece. I personally hate it and though it was a kind of gesture of Mr. Tippett to dedicate the work to me, I simply accepted because I felt sorry for him. How delusional one must be for them to think I, even with as much experience as I have conducting, could actually make heads or tails out of this piece of junk.

First violin: Excuse me, Maestro Solti...

Solti: Yes, what is it?

First violin: Your fly is open.

Solti: Oh my, you are correct. Please excuse me for a minute.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 30, 2012, 08:21:34 PM
I've been looking around on Amazon tonight for Tippett recordings and I've been looking at the Tippett Quartet's recordings of T's SQs, any one else own these recordings? I wonder how they are? I only have the Lindseys in SQs No. 1-3 which came in a Decca box set.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 31, 2012, 07:46:17 AM
So I'm trying to get LisztianWagner (Ilaria) into Tippett. So far, she said she's been really enjoying the music and finds Tippett interesting. She called his 4th symphony powerful and indeed it is! I'm happy that she's finding enjoyment in the music from this master.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2012, 09:36:13 AM
Now, to every newbie in his introduction thread, you'll be, I hope you like Tippett! ; )
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 31, 2012, 06:39:59 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 31, 2012, 09:36:13 AM
Now, to every newbie in his introduction thread, you'll be, I hope you like Tippett! ; )

Nah, Karl. That's Daniel's line. I just harass members until they give in. ;) :D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 31, 2012, 08:16:47 PM
What are everyone's top 5 favorite Tippett works?

I'll have to get back to this question myself...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on April 01, 2012, 02:44:51 AM
Can't do 5, can just about do 10, though I'm loathe to leave out King Priam, any of symphonies 2-4, the other quartets and the songs among other things.

Double Concerto
Piano Concerto
Triple Concerto
Quartet 3
A Child of Our Time
Corelli Fantasy
Midsummer Marriage
Vision of St Augustine
Concerto for Orchestra
Four Horn Sonata
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on April 01, 2012, 05:20:10 AM
Funnily enough, the first three that my brain spit out were all ones Luke had left out:

Symphony #3
Symphony #4
King Priam

I'd be hard pushed to make a longer list as I simply wouldn't be able to make a clear decision between many works. For me, though, those listed above are the peaks that stand out even over the rest.

Good to be reminded of the Sonata for Four Horns; I've not heard it in a long while so it's time to pop in this very very OOP disc:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/02/11/80b04310fca0183b2560a010.L.jpg)

... a disc that really needs a reissue, given that the current catalogue is hardly overflowing with recordings of the two major works on it--the Tippett and the Carter quintet--and that the inclusion of the rarer Tippett and Britten items just go to make it all the more worthwhile. Paging Naxos, NMC, whoever ...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on April 01, 2012, 05:32:21 AM
Quote from: edward on April 01, 2012, 05:20:10 AM
Funnily enough, the first three that my brain spit out were all ones Luke had left out:

Symphony #3
Symphony #4
King Priam

I'd be hard pushed to make a longer list as I simply wouldn't be able to make a clear decision between many works. For me, though, those listed above are the peaks that stand out even over the rest.

Good to be reminded of the Sonata for Four Horns; I've not heard it in a long while so it's time to pop in this very very OOP disc:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/02/11/80b04310fca0183b2560a010.L.jpg)

... a disc that really needs a reissue, given that the current catalogue is hardly overflowing with recordings of the two major works on it--the Tippett and the Carter quintet--and that the inclusion of the rarer Tippett and Britten items just go to make it all the more worthwhile. Paging Naxos, NMC, whoever ...

Arrrgh, I used to have that cd, and now it's up to $80!! >:D That's definitely the cd to have, drool drool.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 01, 2012, 06:04:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 31, 2012, 09:36:13 AM
Now, to every newbie in his introduction thread, you'll be, I hope you like Tippett! ; )
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 31, 2012, 06:39:59 PM
Nah, Karl. That's Daniel's line. I just harass members until they give in. ;) :D

;D

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 31, 2012, 08:16:47 PM
What are everyone's top 5 favorite Tippett works?

I'll have to get back to this question myself...

Please remind me to get back to this question in a few months time!

I shall be placing my order for the Tippett cds (and all the others I told you about, John) tommorow. Very excited!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 06:52:31 AM
Been listening to a fair amount of Tippett, still easing my way into it...but so far have been immensely impressed with the Piano Concerto and it's compositional structure. Would like to obtain a good recording, suggestions?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 01, 2012, 06:57:30 AM
Five:

Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli
Songs for Dov
Symphony #2
Symphony #4
Piano Concerto


Sarge

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: kishnevi on April 01, 2012, 08:46:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 30, 2012, 08:21:34 PM
I've been looking around on Amazon tonight for Tippett recordings and I've been looking at the Tippett Quartet's recordings of T's SQs, any one else own these recordings? I wonder how they are? I only have the Lindseys in SQs No. 1-3 which came in a Decca box set.

Just seeing this. 
I have both CDs, and like them, but have nothing to compare them to.   They were my first and for some time my only Tippett recordings.  In fact I'm pretty bare in Tippett==only other Tippett I have at the moment is his own recording of ACOT.  I just ordered this one as part of a larger order from Presto.  It includes everything in the CD James posted (in the same performances, actually), plus more, including the Ritual Dances and the Songs for Dov.
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/emi6784292.jpg)



Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 05:42:21 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 06:52:31 AM
Been listening to a fair amount of Tippett, still easing my way into it...but so far have been immensely impressed with the Piano Concerto and it's compositional structure. Would like to obtain a good recording, suggestions?

Greg, I advise against the Ogdon recording that James suggested and I recommend the Shelley/Hickox performance. An overall more appealing recording both in terms of performance and audio quality. Shelley has a broader sense of the work than Ogdon who, in my opinion, doesn't really have a good feel for it. With this Hickox recording, you also get as couplings: Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Fantasia on Theme of Handel, and Praeludium for brass, bells, and percussion. Overall, a win/win recording.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 05:46:13 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 01, 2012, 08:46:35 AM
Just seeing this. 
I have both CDs, and like them, but have nothing to compare them to.   They were my first and for some time my only Tippett recordings.  In fact I'm pretty bare in Tippett==only other Tippett I have at the moment is his own recording of ACOT.  I just ordered this one as part of a larger order from Presto.  It includes everything in the CD James posted (in the same performances, actually), plus more, including the Ritual Dances and the Songs for Dov.
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/emi6784292.jpg)

I just can't get onboard with Ogdon's performance of the Piano Concerto and his performance was the first one I heard. I think Ogdon just bangs his with through the work without a proper understanding of it. You should try more Tippett, Jeffrey. Have you heard A Child of Our Time yet? This is one of the most profoundly moving oratorios of the 20th Century.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 05:54:45 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 05:42:21 PM
Greg, I advise against the Ogdon recording that James suggested and I recommend the Shelley/Hickox performance. An overall more appealing recording both in terms of performance and audio quality. Shelley has a broader sense of the work than Ogdon who, in my opinion, doesn't really have a good feel for it. With this Hickox recording, you also get as couplings: Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Fantasia on Theme of Handel, and Praeludium for brass, bells, and percussion. Overall, a win/win recording.

And I just remembered that the Shelly/Hickox version is what I first heard on YouTube.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: kishnevi on April 01, 2012, 06:03:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 05:46:13 PM
I just can't get onboard with Ogdon's performance of the Piano Concerto and his performance was the first one I heard. I think Ogdon just bangs his with through the work without a proper understanding of it. You should try more Tippett, Jeffrey. Have you heard A Child of Our Time yet? This is one of the most profoundly moving oratorios of the 20th Century.

I have the Naxos recording with Tippett conductiong.  In fact, I think it was me who prodded you into getting that particular one (not that you really need any prodding :)  )

The trigger's been pulled on this one, and it's cheap enough, and has enough other stuff on it that I won't mind a bangy performance.  I'll just wait until Chandos boxes up the Hickox recordings, I suppose.  Have you heard Osborne's recording of the Piano Concerto on Hyperion, by any chance?  IIRC, it's a two-fer with the Piano Sonatas and something else.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 06:04:30 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 05:54:45 PM
And I just remembered that the Shelly/Hickox version is what I first heard on YouTube.

You simply can't beat the performance, Greg. The audio quality, as with all of Hickox's Tippett recordings, is top-notch.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 06:23:41 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 01, 2012, 06:03:46 PM
I have the Naxos recording with Tippett conductiong.  In fact, I think it was me who prodded you into getting that particular one (not that you really need any prodding :)  )

The trigger's been pulled on this one, and it's cheap enough, and has enough other stuff on it that I won't mind a bangy performance.  I'll just wait until Chandos boxes up the Hickox recordings, I suppose.  Have you heard Osborne's recording of the Piano Concerto on Hyperion, by any chance?  IIRC, it's a two-fer with the Piano Sonatas and something else.

Yes, it was you who prodded me into getting Tippett's own recording of A Child of Our Time. No problem because it was so cheap, so I have nothing to complain about. I haven't heard it yet though. I'm stuck on Hickox's right now. 8)

I had bought the Osborne recording but the Amazon MP seller cancelled on me. I have yet to find another copy for a good price.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 06:54:37 PM
Okay, so I've thought about my top 5 favorite Tippett works question and here goes nothing...

(In no particular order)

1. Symphony No. 4 (I actually like all of the symphonies but the 4th is so vicious, sinister, and so ominously compelling)
2. The Rose Lake
3. A Child of Our Time
4. Concerto for Double String Orchestra
5. Triple Concerto

That was a harder list to make than I thought, because I love so much of Tippett's music now. Okay, this list is subject to change at any given time. :) There...I feel better now after saying that. 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 06:54:37 PM
Okay, so I've thought about my top 5 favorite Tippett works question and here goes nothing...

(In no particular order)

1. Symphony No. 4 (I actually like all of the symphonies but the 4th is so vicious, sinister, and so ominously compelling)
2. The Rose Lake
3. A Child of Our Time
4. Concerto for Double String Orchestra
5. Triple Concerto

That was a harder list to make than I thought, because I love so much of Tippett's music now. Okay, this list is subject to change at any given time. :) There...I feel better now after saying that. 8)

Is #4 the piece that quotes Beethoven's 9th?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 01, 2012, 07:04:26 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
Is #4 the piece that quotes Beethoven's 9th?

Nope, that's the 3rd.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: 71 dB on April 02, 2012, 05:47:04 AM
Tippett is completely unknown to me. If I have time someday I might sample his music in Spotify...

There is so much music I do really like (classical and non-classical) that it would be insane unnecessory to buy something blindly without sampling first.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 02, 2012, 05:57:34 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 02, 2012, 05:47:04 AM
There is so much music I do really like (classical and non-classical) that it would be insane to buy something blindly without sampling first.

Insane is not at all the right word, but your point is taken : )
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: 71 dB on April 02, 2012, 07:29:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2012, 05:57:34 AM
Insane is not at all the right word, but your point is taken : )

You're right, I mean unnecessory. My mistake...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 02, 2012, 06:02:08 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 02, 2012, 05:47:04 AM
Tippett is completely unknown to me. If I have time someday I might sample his music in Spotify...

There is so much music I do really like (classical and non-classical) that it would be insane unnecessory to buy something blindly without sampling first.

Have you listened to any of his music since you made this post, 71 dB?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2012, 03:48:07 AM
Well, that was just yesterday, John.  Not everyone finds Tippett immediately actionable : )
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2012, 06:44:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2012, 03:48:07 AM
Well, that was just yesterday, John.  Not everyone finds Tippett immediately actionable : )

Yeah, I suppose your right, Karl, but stranger things have happened. ;)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2012, 06:45:28 AM
BTW, I've not listened to The Ice Break yet . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2012, 06:46:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2012, 06:45:28 AM
BTW, I've not listened to The Ice Break yet . . . .

Don't worry. I haven't either. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 03, 2012, 08:25:59 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 25, 2012, 05:00:12 PM
I just listened to @2mins of the first movements of the Symphonies 1-3. Never having heard them, I offer my first impressions:

No.1: my first thought was, Sessions No.2. Very Neo-Classical, spritely rhythms.

No.2: some strange Gladiator Movie? Roman brass fifth fanfare chugging with lightning fast string runs. Very energetic!

No.3: Wow, that's noisy! Clangorous. ill tempered!

I was certainly impressed to save for later. They were are three very 'fresh', all in their own way, too. I did sense the extreme busyness, like Hindemith on... what?, meth?,... definitely highly amped and hallucinating slightly. The string section in No.2 certainly gets a workout! I was certainly turned on to his personal demands for 'purity' of expression from the players,..hmm, Ives?, Langaard?, Brian?...  idiosynch...spell check not working...

Anyhow, very fresh. I'm staying away from No.4 just because. YT guided me next to Wellesz's 8-9, which also added to the feeling, reminding me of Searle and Frankel and and and

I really like your unique descriptions of Symphonies Nos. 1-3. Pretty funny stuff. :D But I urge you to listen to the 4th. You will not be sorry! Do you own a recording of it? If you own Solti's, then just go ahead and throw it out! :P
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 05, 2012, 12:32:27 PM
What performance do you guys prefer of the Tippett's 2nd? Tippett himself conducting, Colin Davis, or Hickox? I really like Tippett's own performance of it, but each performance has it's own merits.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 05, 2012, 11:10:42 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_j1TPuKBxXwE/TMFCHQKl5oI/AAAAAAAAAm8/xTmZZD8uoaU/s400/obi-wan-ghost.png)

"Luke...this is Obi Wan Kenobi calling you. We need you here...Luke..."

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 02, 2012, 06:02:08 PM
Have you listened to any of his music since you made this post, 71 dB?

No, I haven't. It may take years before I do.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 09:48:11 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 09:16:52 AM
No, I haven't. It may take years before I do.

::)

Edit: It's a shame to read comments like this because I think one could easily drop whatever they're interested in and take 10-20 minutes out of their "busy" schedules to listen to a new composer.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 09:48:11 AM
::)

Edit: It's a shame to read comments like this because I think one could easily drop whatever they're interested in and take 10-20 minutes out of their "busy" schedules to listen to a new composer.

It's not about not having 20 minutes of time. It is about being curious enough in order to be able to concentrate properly.

Recently I have explored Stölzel, Hindemith and Berg. On non-classical size Carly Simon (heavily!), The Doobie Brothers, Kansas and little bit 10 CC and Premiata Forneria Marconi.

I am listening to Tippett's Piano Concerto (Spotify) as I write this. 
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 10:56:46 AM
I found this interview with Simon Rattle discussing A Child of Our Time:

http://www.youtube.com/v/XeHhoKJ-iQs
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 10:58:44 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 10:51:19 AMCarly Simon (heavily!)

Oh dear...

Quote from: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 10:51:19 AMI am listening to Tippett's Piano Concerto (Spotify) as I write this.

Good, let us know what you think...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 11:16:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 10:58:44 AM
Oh dear...

Oh dear how talented she is!  ;)

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 10:58:44 AMGood, let us know what you think...

Tippett - Piano Concerto - Philharmonia Orchestra - Sir Colin Davis - John Ogdon.

I didn't find this work particularly memorable. I think it lacks a beautiful Adagio or Largo part. Pretty much what I expected, not bad but not that interesting either, just like most composers.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 11:22:38 AM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 11:16:32 AMTippett - Piano Concerto - Philharmonia Orchestra - Sir Colin Davis - John Ogdon.

I didn't find this work particularly memorable. I think it lacks a beautiful Adagio or Largo part. Pretty much what I expected, not bad but not that interesting either, just like most composers.

God forbid it lacks an adagio or largo. ::) Sounds like you written off before you even listened to it. But whatever, just continue listening to Carly Simon and Doobie Brothers...lol.

By the way, the Ogdon/Davis performance can't touch the Shelley/Hickox performance IMHO.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 12:42:25 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 11:22:38 AM
God forbid it lacks an adagio or largo. ::) Sounds like you written off before you even listened to it. But whatever, just continue listening to Carly Simon and Doobie Brothers...lol.

By the way, the Ogdon/Davis performance can't touch the Shelley/Hickox performance IMHO.

I did write that after listening to the whole concerto. It's my initial opinion after just one listening. Who knows what I think later on.

I was limited to what is available in Spotify (not much Tippett, unfortunately).

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 12:46:03 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 12:42:25 PM
I did write that after listening to the whole concerto. It's my initial opinion after just one listening. Who knows what I think later on.

I was limited to what is available in Spotify (not much Tippett, unfortunately).

Yes, well that's good. Please do listen again. I think you will find it a very strong work. As I mentioned before, Tippett didn't make much of an impression on me when I first heard him either. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: 71 dB on April 06, 2012, 12:54:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 12:46:03 PM
Yes, well that's good. Please do listen again. I think you will find it a very strong work.

Maybe, but not today!  :D

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 12:46:03 PMAs I mentioned before, Tippett didn't make much of an impression on me when I first heard him either. :)

It has taken me years to appreciate many composers too.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 05:03:28 PM
Listening to A Child of Our Time (w/ Hickox/LSO) again and what an outstanding composition this is. Such heartfelt emotion and the Negro Spirituals were a masterful creative stroke. Luke, do you have the score to this work? I wonder what kind of harmonies it uses? Uh oh, I asked a loaded question. :) That's okay I love reading Luke's epic posts about Tippett's music. I'm so glad he's passionate about this music as much as I am. :D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 06, 2012, 09:28:28 PM
So I read through an interview with Tippett (a link I believe I provided many pages back) and boy did he confuse the hell out of me...lol. :D His answers are never straight-forward at all. He always seems to dance around the question and answers parts of it as if he's doing some kind of coordinated dance routine. Thank goodness his music was his voice! ;D I never read his librettos but I actually may look over The Midsummer Marriage tonight to try and make some sense of it.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on April 07, 2012, 02:30:31 AM
MI, I'd urge you strongly to get hold of the Ian Kemp biography I've been talking about. It explains Tippett's views, and their fluctuations over time, wonderfully well. Kemp knows everything about Tippett, it seems. Re the Midsummer Marriage, for instance - this is a complex opera with complex sources; though the essence of it is very simple, there is so much going on behind the scenes that it is almost impossible even to talk about it clearly without getting tangled up.  And yet Kemp manages, spectacularly well, in a lengthy, penetrating discussion of the opera, its roots, its sources, its meanings and finally its music. 70 -odd pages of the book are devoted to this one opera alone!

It will also answer your questions about Child of Our Time. Yes, I do have the score, and yes, I will happily do a bit of analysis on it for you, but Kemp's subtle understanding of the kinds of tonal tensions engendered by Tippett's formal scheme is perfectly-pitched and leaves little to be said. Tippett intended his harmonisation of the spirituals to be exceedingly natural and pure in its diatonicism, to the extent, he said, that is 'excludes all harmonies whatsoever'. From the spirituals he extracted the characteristic bluesey third (from the fifth degree to the flattened seventh), and this minor third becomes the source interval of the whole work. Funnily enough, I deduced this when I was just a boy, long before I read Kemp's book, but I also felt that there was a consistent motivic use not just of thirds but of of sixths (the inversion of the third), and that there was a point in the work where the use of thirds and sixths shifted in emphasis (the most obvious and telling examples being the descending 6th at the beginning 'It is winter' becoming the rising 6th near the end 'it is spring' - this at least it obvious and a major idea in the music). I can no longer remember quite what I was thinking back then - I was only a teenager - but I do remember being very sure of it!  ;D

In genera Tippett's tonal structures are derived from his readings of D'Indy and his theories of tonal brightness and darkness (not really that different from standard tonal practice, but more thorough-going). What is remarkable about Tippett - and because it is hidden in the sturcture of the works, not easy to see at first - is quite how logical and consistent his following of this fundamental idea is. Kemp's diagram of the tonal structure of the work is very revealing.

But I think you are asking about harmony, not tonal structure. Truth is, it is hard to give general rules about Tippett's harmony, because it is essentially empirical. Later on, and first found in the Sonata for Four Horns (which though a small piece, Kemp sees as very important, and I agree) there is a chord which is to be found in much of his later music, a kind of fused tonic and dominant but missing a third
e.g. C-G-B-D; and earlier on there are certain types of behaviours to be observed, some of them deriving from Sibelius (again, Kemp is massivley strong on all this stuff). But essentially he does what he needs to when he he needs it. The beginning of Child of Our Time is completely triadic, with grinding dissonant basses and chromatic slides everywhere. But as Kemp points out, what is also happening here is that Tippett is paraphrasing a couple of phrases from Wagner (one from Parsifal, one from Meistersinger). Throughout this piece, and in other works, one finds this happening sometimes - the music gently suggests other music, in gesture and shape, without actually quoting it. Later points in Child of Our Time, for instance, call phrases of Handel (Messiah) to mind. This is deliberate, probably. Every time this happens there seems to be a reason for it, an expressive or psychlogical correlation which Tippett is wishing to draw between the older piece and his own, so as to deepen the resonances of his music.


I'm still engrossed in Kemp's book myself, FWIW. It is such a satisfying read. I said I'd add to my post about the Triple Concerto with a few extra points Kemp makes, so here they are, condensed:

Tippett revealed that he conceived of the work as a progress from one day to the next, or IOW 'as a natural cycle flowing from begining to end and admitting none of the sharp contrasts associated with more individual experience'. That is why the pieces is cyclic and continuous. The outer movements are 'day', the middle movement 'night', and the interludes twilight and dawn respectively. This is why - I missed this - the second interlude quotes the dawn chorus from the end of Midsummer Marriage. The 'clatter of percussion' which precedes this 'is a musical equivalent of the sudden streaks of red that shimmer across the dark colours of a night sky', deriving from this phrase of Yeats:

All metaphor, Malachi, stilts and all. A barnacle goose
Far up in the stretches of night; night splits and the dawn breaks looses;
I, through the terrible novelty of light, stalk on, stalk on;
Those great sea-horses bare their teeth and laugh at the dawn.

Kemp suggests that Tippett's fascination with the phrase 'gong-tormented sea' from another late Yeats poem, Byzantium, might lie partly behind the heavy presence of tuned gongs in the work - of course it was this poem that he set later, after the Kemp was written, and IIRC this phrase which was of particular importance to him when he set it. The real stimuls behind the gongs was a visit to Indonesia shortly before composing the piece, and the music does occasionally suggest gamelan in specific ways such as those I mentioned (pentatonicism, scoring) and also, as Kemp says, in the way the music just stops. Kemp describes the form of the piece as I do, and adds the important idea that 'Tippett's procedure may suggest the truism that things will always begin and end in the same way but that their middles will be different; it gains significance here because it is in the middle, the slow movement, that the transcendent moments occur. In the processTippett shows that transcendence is a gift that can occur anywhere - at the beginning (the symphony), the middle (the concerto) and the end (the quartet)' (Kemp rightly sees these three works as closely related)

The other thing that stuck in my mind from Kemp, which I wanted to post here, was a slight counter-argument to John's that Tippett was such a dreadful conductor. Somethng about Tippett - his humility, maybe, his humanness - seems to invites people to see the flaws in him and to magnify them up. This applies to his music, his libretti, his writings, and his conducting, perhaps. There is no doubt that Tippett was not a great conductor; I am sure what John says of him is correct. IIRC Mike (Knight) has also been conducted by Tippett, and has said similar things. But then in Kemp we read of Tippett as a young man, conducting his own South London Orchestra, which was made up of professional players, and we read the opinion of the orchestra's leader, who subsequently played for many well-known conductors, that Tippett, at this time anyway, 'was a genuinely fine conductor whose closest counterpart was Rafael Kubelik.' Tippett did study conducting, after all, with both Malcolm Sergeant and Adrian Boult, standing by the latter's side for four years in rehearsals.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 07, 2012, 06:14:42 AM
Wow, Luke epic post. :D Thanks so much for the time and effort you put into it! I really need to pick up Kemp's Tippett book.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 07, 2012, 07:05:33 PM
Ian Kemp's book on Tippett is incredibly difficult to find because it's out-of-print and the prices sellers are asking for it in like new condition (the only condition I would buy a used book in) online are just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 08, 2012, 06:44:37 AM
Borrow (do not steal) it from a library.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on April 08, 2012, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: Luke on April 07, 2012, 02:30:31 AM

The other thing that stuck in my mind from Kemp, which I wanted to post here, was a slight counter-argument to John's that Tippett was such a dreadful conductor. Somethng about Tippett - his humility, maybe, his humanness - seems to invites people to see the flaws in him and to magnify them up. This applies to his music, his libretti, his writings, and his conducting, perhaps. There is no doubt that Tippett was not a great conductor; I am sure what John says of him is correct. IIRC Mike (Knight) has also been conducted by Tippett, and has said similar things. But then in Kemp we read of Tippett as a young man, conducting his own South London Orchestra, which was made up of professional players, and we read the opinion of the orchestra's leader, who subsequently played for many well-known conductors, that Tippett, at this time anyway, 'was a genuinely fine conductor whose closest counterpart was Rafael Kubelik.' Tippett did study conducting, after all, with both Malcolm Sergeant and Adrian Boult, standing by the latter's side for four years in rehearsals.
Kemp's book is worth searching out. No doubt about that. Returning to Tippett the conductor. He was great in rehearsal and really got under the surface of the music. His Enigma and Brigg Fair rehearsals, especially, with the LSSO were educational and inspirational. He knew his stuff and also knew how to get the sound and phrasing he wanted. He was such a nice man and such a great friend to the orchestra that everyone wanted to do their best for him. However, he could be erratic and you couldn't always rely on his baton in concert. It was his actual stick technique that was the issue. His musicianship was masterly. Hope this clears up what may have come over as a real dig at Michael in my earlier post. It was an honour to have known the man and to have been one of his forever grateful pupils.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 08, 2012, 06:25:09 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on April 08, 2012, 11:32:07 AM
Kemp's book is worth searching out. No doubt about that. Returning to Tippett the conductor. He was great in rehearsal and really got under the surface of the music. His Enigma and Brigg Fair rehearsals, especially, with the LSSO were educational and inspirational. He knew his stuff and also knew how to get the sound and phrasing he wanted. He was such a nice man and such a great friend to the orchestra that everyone wanted to do their best for him. However, he could be erratic and you couldn't always rely on his baton in concert. It was his actual stick technique that was the issue. His musicianship was masterly. Hope this clears up what may have come over as a real dig at Michael in my earlier post. It was an honour to have known the man and to have been one of his forever grateful pupils.

I've heard many positive things about his time as a conductor. I was reading the liner notes to his recording of the 2nd and 4th symphonies on NMC (originally released through BBC Magazine) and the producer Martin Cotton said, to paraphrase, he exhibited a great humility, a sharp sense of humor, and nobility on the podium. Cherish your memories with him, John.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 11, 2012, 02:22:52 PM
Since Andrew Davis seems to continue to fly the banner for Tippett, I'd like to see some new recordings on Chandos. It would be nice to see a whole new series of Tippett's orchestral works. I know, I know...I need to quit dreaming. ;D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 13, 2012, 02:46:17 PM
Bump
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2012, 02:56:44 PM
No, still haven't listened to The Ice  Break yet.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 13, 2012, 02:58:27 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 13, 2012, 02:56:44 PM
No, still haven't listened to The Ice  Break yet.

Karl, maybe a fair question would be what works by Tippett have you heard? Please list them all.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2012, 03:20:14 PM
Well, it's a question, certainly.  Cannot see that fair or unfair enters into it : )

Will compile an answer to-morrow.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 13, 2012, 04:39:30 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 13, 2012, 03:20:14 PM
Well, it's a question, certainly.  Cannot see that fair or unfair enters into it : )

Will compile an answer to-morrow.

I anticipate your reply. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom - HARSH!
Post by: Scion7 on April 18, 2012, 11:45:32 PM
           I have a sneaking suspicion this reviewer does not care for Tippett:

Michael Tippett - A composer to Forget - By Lebrecht, Norman / December 22, 2004

Most New Years allow a decent interval for recovery before triggering the ritual orgy of anniversary festivities which, in a clueless world, passes for clever musical programming. Beware, then, of 2005 which cruelly from its very second day marks the centenary of the composer Michael Tippett with a commemorative week on Radio 3, a filmed portrait on BBC4 and performances of his music in all four corners of the kingdom – but, nota bene, nowhere beyond, except Chicago and Boston where two British Davises, Andrew and Colin, will impose his creations on bemused (and minuscule) audiences.

Tippett is a British taste, and none the better for that. With the exception of his oratorio A Child of Our Time, which is a wonderful singalong in any tongue, none of his 80-odd (some very odd) works have travelled well, despite the best efforts of his German publisher, Schott, and many British supporters. I once looked around during an Andrew Davis performance of a Tippett symphony in Philadelphia and counted fewer than 200 paying heads. As I looked around, so were many others – so feeble was the music's grip on our attention.

Tippett, born into Home Counties comfort on 2 January 1905, was an inglorious exemplar of English amateurism. After studies at the Royal College of Music he drifted into vagrancy in the 1930s, espousing Trotskyism, living in a hovel and running musical teach-ins for farm workers. His first piano sonata, string quartet and chamber ensemble pieces are Beethovenian in form and content. A Child of Our Time is a Handel-like response to political events, a protest at the climate of inhumanity originally sparked by the November 1938 murder of a German diplomat in Paris by a Jewish refugee and Hitler's Kristallnacht retaliation.

When war broke out, Tippett refused to bear arms. Registered as a conscientious objector he could not be bothered to undertake fire watching duties and was jailed for three months. Vaughan Williams appealed for his release, calling him 'a national asset' and Britten came with Peter Pears to play at Wormwood Scrubs. A Child, premieredin March 1944, was acclaimed as a masterpiece of secular humanism. Powerful as the music is, singers often find hard to stifle a giggle at banalities in Tippett's text: 'He shoots the official – but he shoots only his dark brother – and see: he is dead.'

The press had him down as an intellectual and cultured society bracketed Tippett with Britten. (ed.)

(ed.) Tippett's scores sprawled all over the page, his themes were vague and parochial, his style archaic or contrived. Highly trained German musicians, exiled in Britain, were aghast at the sloppiness of his structure, likening him to a poet who cannot make lines balance or scan. Even sworn admirers, like the composer Michael Berkeley who presents BBC4's tribute, admit that his music 'does not trip off the page'. On the contrary, it trips over itself. When Adrian Boult premiered Tippett's second symphony on live radio, the performance broke down in confusion after a couple of minutes.

Tippett dismissed criticism as prejudice or ignorance, a failure to grasp the uniqueness of his idiom. When Covent Garden commissioned an opera, he took T S Eliot's brush-off as serious advice and decided to write his own librettos. A Midsummer Marriage (back in a new production at the ROH next October) is consequently lumbered with an irresolute plot and impossibly naïve dialogue. King Priam, his next, had a Greek myth to keep it on the rails, but The Knot Garden is a rambling indulgence in late-Sixties psychobabble, unrelieved by so much as one credible character. Peter Hall, the director, perhaps in desperation, ordered one of the singers to drop her top – historically, the first such exposure on the Royal Opera stage.

Discovering America's sexual freedoms, Tippett pranced about in hippie sandals and injected transatlantic rhythms into later works, without winning many new friends. The tedium of his fourth opera, The Ice Break, was briefly relieved by the use of laser beams, which Tippett had copied from Stockhausen's Licht. His final opera, New Year, commissioned by Houston and Glyndebourne in 1989, achieved the lowestratings ever measured on BBC2 and gave vital ammunition to those who sought, more or less successfully, to ban modern opera from British television.

Yet – and here's the paradox – the woollier Tippett's music grew, the more powerful were his advocates. There is not a musical administrator in the land who will fail to pay in the coming year fervent tribute to our great centennial Briton. Scottish Opera, on its last legs for want of public support, will (unless the bailiffs arrive first) stage the baffling Knot Garden. The LSO, almost bankrupted by a Tippett cycle in 1982, will attempt another. Schott are publishing – for whom? – an exhaustive new edition of King Priam.

Beyond critical considerations, Tippett was an unfailingly gentle man who could charm anyone (myself included) over a cup of tea (ed).

There is something admirable about their stubborn advocacy of a genuine English eccentric, an affirmation that not all in cultural life has to be ruled by box-office, or logic. That said, I cannot begin to assess the damage to British music that will ensue from the coming year's purblind promotion of a composer who failed so insistently to observe the rules of his craft.

Set beside any of his contemporaries, radical or conservative, British, American or European, Tippett fails the driving test of coherence. That, devotees argue, is his essential charm. But in the eyes of the world their yearlong celebration will revert our music to pre-Britten standards of anything goes. American critics often accuse us of abusing state subsidy to exaggerate the merits of British composers. Here is a classic instance of local patriotism and personal affection running riot at public expense. Since his death in January 1998, Tippett has scarcely been played at all. Once the next year is over, oblivion will mercifully resume.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 19, 2012, 04:26:51 AM
Lebrecht —  a "journalist" to forget.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 19, 2012, 04:37:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 13, 2012, 03:20:14 PM
Well, it's a question, certainly.  Cannot see that fair or unfair enters into it : )

Will compile an answer to-morrow.

Late, but here it is – the list of Tippett compositions I have heard:

King Priam (like this very much)
New Year Suite
Symphonies nos. 3 & 4
Concerto for Double String Orchestra (like this very much)
Little Music for Strings
Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli (like this very much)
The Rose Lake (l.t.v.m.)
Piano Concerti (l.t.v.m.)
Triple Concerto (l.t.v.m.)
A Child of Our Time
Maginificat and Nunc dimittis
Vision of St Augustine
The Blue Guitar
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom - HARSH!
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 07:01:56 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 18, 2012, 11:45:32 PM
           I have a sneaking suspicion this reviewer does not care for Tippett:

I linked that article on this thread before and remarked at how ridiculous it was to read. I could really careless if this guy likes Tippett or not. From reading his article, he exhibits no kind of empathy or even understanding for Tippett's idiom.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 07:04:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2012, 04:37:16 AM
Late, but here it is – the list of Tippett compositions I have heard:

King Priam (like this very much)
New Year Suite
Symphonies nos. 3 & 4
Concerto for Double String Orchestra (like this very much)
Little Music for Strings
Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli (like this very much)
The Rose Lake (l.t.v.m.)
Piano Concerti (l.t.v.m.)
Triple Concerto (l.t.v.m.)
A Child of Our Time
Maginificat and Nunc dimittis
Vision of St Augustine
The Blue Guitar


Very cool, Karl. Thanks for getting back to me on this regardless if was a late reply or not. You've heard a good bit of his music. Slightly surprised you haven't heard Ritual Dances from The Midsummer Marriage.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 19, 2012, 07:05:29 AM
Oh! Well, so I have, too . . . odd lacuna, e'en as you say.

I need to get to the first two symphonies, to The Ice Break, and to the quartets . . . .
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 19, 2012, 07:06:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 07:01:56 AM
I linked that article on this thread before and remarked at how ridiculous it was to read. I could really careless if this guy likes Tippett or not. From reading his article, he exhibits no kind of empathy or even understanding for Tippett's idiom.

Lebrecht is the musical Rush Limbaugh: you don't read him for content, but for the entertainment in the noise he makes.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 07:08:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2012, 07:05:29 AM
Oh! Well, so I have, too . . . odd lacuna, e'en as you say.

I need to get to the first two symphonies, to The Ice Break, and to the quartets . . . .

Symphony No. 2 is a fantastic work IMHO. I do like his 1st symphony too. I own all of the SQs but I have yet to listen to them either.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 07:24:00 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2012, 04:26:51 AM
Lebrecht —  a "journalist" to forget.

Yes! I've already forgotten him. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scion7 on April 19, 2012, 10:46:56 AM
The string quartets are interesting - especially #3.  I think a bit too much bruhaha has been raised about their importance in certain circles (the Tippett fanatics are especially virulent), but they are well worth hearing.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 10:52:08 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 19, 2012, 10:46:56 AM
The string quartets are interesting - especially #3.  I think a bit too much bruhaha has been raised about their importance in certain circles (the Tippett fanatics are especially virulent), but they are well worth hearing.

Tippett fanatics? ??? I don't know too many of those. Luke and I could be included in that list I suppose.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scion7 on April 19, 2012, 10:52:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2012, 07:06:40 AM
Lebrecht is the musical Rush Limbaugh: you don't read him for content, but for the entertainment in the noise he makes.

I believe that Record Review ran a nice piece on Tippett back when they were still extant - I'll have to scan that in for the group some day.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on April 19, 2012, 10:55:50 AM
That would be interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scion7 on April 19, 2012, 04:49:46 PM
Giving the ol' symphony number four a listen - been a long time.   Breathe in, breathe out ...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 04:52:12 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 19, 2012, 04:49:46 PM
Giving the ol' symphony number four a listen - been a long time.   Breathe in, breathe out ...

The best performance I've heard of this work is Tippett's own. Which one are you listening to?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: eyeresist on April 19, 2012, 06:38:09 PM
Rather disturbed to learn that Tippett's themes were "parochial".  ::)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2012, 06:41:44 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 19, 2012, 06:38:09 PM
Rather disturbed to learn that Tippett's themes were "parochial".  ::)

The whole article that critic wrote was a major eye roll. One ridiculous assertion after another.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scion7 on April 19, 2012, 11:24:23 PM
Hickox, Bournemouth Symph on the 4th.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 20, 2012, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 19, 2012, 11:24:23 PM
Hickox, Bournemouth Symph on the 4th.

Great performance. Stay away from the Solti/CSO. Truly one of most awful performances of anything I've heard.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: vandermolen on April 20, 2012, 08:52:57 AM
'A Child of Our Time' is being performed at the London Proms this year.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scion7 on April 20, 2012, 09:46:21 AM
Yeah, I remember back in the day reading in the press Tippett stating in so many words that he didn't like Solti's performance of it - not sure if that seriously damaged their friendship.

By the way - what the heck is this crap???  Ravings of a psychotic who has access to the 'net? --  http://lohere.net/kulkapedia/samuel/Sir_Michael_Tippett (http://lohere.net/kulkapedia/samuel/Sir_Michael_Tippett)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 20, 2012, 09:54:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2012, 08:52:57 AM
'A Child of Our Time' is being performed at the London Proms this year.

Let's hope David Robertson can pull it off as well as Colin Davis and Hickox have done.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on April 21, 2012, 04:34:37 AM
Quote from: Luke on April 01, 2012, 02:44:51 AM
Can't do 5, can just about do 10, though I'm loathe to leave out King Priam, any of symphonies 2-4, the other quartets and the songs among other things.

Double Concerto
Piano Concerto
Triple Concerto
Quartet 3
A Child of Our Time
Corelli Fantasy
Midsummer Marriage
Vision of St Augustine
Concerto for Orchestra
Four Horn Sonata
Tippett works I was lucky to play with Michael on stick duty:
Suite in D
Little Music for Strings
Ritual Dances
Sellinger's Round
Shires Suite
Other works with Tippett conducting:
Greensleeves Fantasia
Enigma Variations
Brigg Fair
Hindemith Symphonic Metamorphoses
Circus Band
Putnam's Camp
Rhapsody in Blue
Russlan and Ludmilla
Quiet City
Rio Grande
Children in Leicestershire were pretty lucky weren't they? :D

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2012, 05:03:26 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 20, 2012, 09:46:21 AM
Yeah, I remember back in the day reading in the press Tippett stating in so many words that he didn't like Solti's performance of it - not sure if that seriously damaged their friendship.

By the way - what the heck is this crap???  Ravings of a psychotic who has access to the 'net? --  http://lohere.net/kulkapedia/samuel/Sir_Michael_Tippett (http://lohere.net/kulkapedia/samuel/Sir_Michael_Tippett)

Someone copies the Wiki article, inserts random and nonsensical obscene and coarse words into the text, and thinks it's funny? I suppose it's the work of a 12-year-old...or someone with the mental age of a pubescent boy who doesn't yet understand grammar:

HE IS MOTHERFUCKING GENERALLY ACKNOWLEDGED TO BE -FUCKING-ONE OF THE MOST FUCKER IMPORTANT BRITISH COMPOSERS

Sarge
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 21, 2012, 05:13:03 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2012, 05:03:26 AM
Someone copies the Wiki article, inserts random and nonsensical obscene and coarse words into the text, and thinks it's funny? I suppose it's the work of a 12-year-old...or someone with the mental age of a pubescent boy who doesn't yet understand grammar:

HE IS MOTHERFUCKING GENERALLY ACKNOWLEDGED TO BE -FUCKING-ONE OF THE MOST FUCKER IMPORTANT BRITISH COMPOSERS

Sarge

Lol. Yeah, the person who did obviously doesn't have a clue as to how to even be humorous.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 21, 2012, 09:08:50 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 20, 2012, 09:46:21 AM
By the way - what the heck is this crap???  Ravings of a psychotic who has access to the 'net? --  http://lohere.net/kulkapedia/samuel/Sir_Michael_Tippett (http://lohere.net/kulkapedia/samuel/Sir_Michael_Tippett)

Absolutely disgraceful. Who on earth is actually stupid enough to spend time writing this absolute, pathetic rubbish? If there is one of these for Mahler... then I cannot be held responsible for my reaction! I would probably have to find the author down and send 20 trained Mahler percussionists to hammer him/her down.  >:(

On another more delightful message, finally, all the Tippett cds I ordered a few weeks ago have arrived. I look forward to listening to these! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 21, 2012, 09:22:21 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 20, 2012, 09:46:21 AM
By the way - what the heck is this crap???  Ravings of a psychotic who has access to the 'net? --  http://lohere.net/kulkapedia/samuel/Sir_Michael_Tippett (http://lohere.net/kulkapedia/samuel/Sir_Michael_Tippett)

Agreed, that's absolutely outrageous; just nonsense written by a pathetic idiot. >:(
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: raduneo on April 21, 2012, 09:30:43 AM
I'm pretty sure it's an algorithm that inserts specific (obscene) words at different parts of the phrase. Since grammar and syntax can get quite tricky for a computer, there are mistakes every now and then. This wasn't targetted at Tippett; it seems that Pulp-pedia (a very vulgar version of wikipedia) takes EVERY wikipedia article and "converts" it using that algorithm.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on April 21, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 21, 2012, 09:08:50 AM

On another more delightful message, finally, all the Tippett cds I ordered a few weeks ago have arrived. I look forward to listening to these! :)

Excellent, Daniel. Can't wait to hear your opinion of them. 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: eyeresist on April 22, 2012, 06:16:18 PM
Quote from: raduneo on April 21, 2012, 09:30:43 AMI'm pretty sure it's an algorithm that inserts specific (obscene) words at different parts of the phrase. Since grammar and syntax can get quite tricky for a computer, there are mistakes every now and then. This wasn't targetted at Tippett; it seems that Pulp-pedia (a very vulgar version of wikipedia) takes EVERY wikipedia article and "converts" it using that algorithm.

Yeh, I was going to point this out.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
I'm ready for a new Tippett order: which recording of A Child of Our Time should I get?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 03:55:35 AM
Quote from: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
I'm ready for a new Tippett order: which recording of A Child of Our Time should I get?

The composer's own on Naxos is a no-brainer, meseems.

Be careful, though: John would have you believe that you won't be happy without at least four different recordings
; )
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 03:56:43 AM
.
[asin]B0007ACVJG[/asin]
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2012, 03:55:35 AM
Be careful, though: John would have you believe that you won't be happy without at least four different recordings ; )

:P
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 06:49:05 AM
Quote from: raduneo on May 02, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
I'm ready for a new Tippett order: which recording of A Child of Our Time should I get?

I warmly recommend Hickox's with the LSO. Such a lush, passionate performance with excellent vocalists. The audio quality is also extremely good capturing the ambience of the work brilliantly.

[asin]B000000AQR[/asin]
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: raduneo on May 03, 2012, 07:57:56 AM
Thanks karlhenning and Mirror Image (John)!

Funny thing is I initially ordered the Hickox. Then I was told it's not in shipping condition. Then I decided to ask here just in case, and the first recommendation I read was Tippett's own, so I ordered that. I guess the universe didn't want me to have the Hickox. ;)

Maybe next time!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on May 03, 2012, 11:25:27 AM
Funny, I'd have said.....get the Tippett and the Hickox. Both are superb.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 03, 2012, 07:57:56 AM
Thanks karlhenning and Mirror Image (John)!

Funny thing is I initially ordered the Hickox. Then I was told it's not in shipping condition. Then I decided to ask here just in case, and the first recommendation I read was Tippett's own, so I ordered that. I guess the universe didn't want me to have the Hickox. ;)

Maybe next time!

That's a shame! :( Trust me, you'll want the Hickox. It's my favorite performance of A Child of Our Time.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: raduneo on May 03, 2012, 07:31:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 06:06:13 PM
That's a shame! :( Trust me, you'll want the Hickox. It's my favorite performance of A Child of Our Time.

Nooooooooo!!! My life is meaningless now. :(
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 03, 2012, 07:35:04 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 03, 2012, 07:31:38 PM
Nooooooooo!!! My life is meaningless now. :(

It's okay young grasshopper, you will rebound. :D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: ggluek on May 07, 2012, 04:45:12 PM
Lebrecht's column is also dishonest.  He repeats the story about the failure of the Second Symphony's premiere, without noting the circumstances behind the performance's breakdown -- which had nothing to do with the music.  (Either dishonest, or ignorant.)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 07, 2012, 04:54:20 PM
Quote from: ggluek on May 07, 2012, 04:45:12 PM
Lebrecht's column is also dishonest.  He repeats the story about the failure of the Second Symphony's premiere, without noting the circumstances behind the performance's breakdown -- which had nothing to do with the music.  (Either dishonest, or ignorant.)

Welcome aboard! I like the way you think. :) Yes, that journalist is completely ignorant as most people are in the media.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2012, 07:32:49 PM
Just bought:

[asin]B0019ZF2RG[/asin]

[asin]B00103N2GU[/asin]

Now I own all three of Davis' A Child of Our Time performances on record.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2012, 07:46:43 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 03, 2012, 07:57:56 AM
Thanks karlhenning and Mirror Image (John)!

Funny thing is I initially ordered the Hickox. Then I was told it's not in shipping condition. Then I decided to ask here just in case, and the first recommendation I read was Tippett's own, so I ordered that. I guess the universe didn't want me to have the Hickox. ;)

Maybe next time!

Have you listened to Tippett's own performance yet of A Child of Our Time? I was curious to read your impressions of it.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: raduneo on May 10, 2012, 08:52:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2012, 07:32:49 PM
Just bought:

[asin]B0019ZF2RG[/asin]

[asin]B00103N2GU[/asin]

Now I own all three of Davis' A Child of Our Time performances on record.

Hahaha, someone really likes Tippett. :P
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: eyeresist on May 10, 2012, 09:12:57 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 10, 2012, 08:52:55 PMHahaha, someone really likes Tippett. :P

Kind of a pointless thing to post in the Tippett thread.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2012, 09:19:03 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 10, 2012, 08:52:55 PM
Hahaha, someone really likes Tippett. :P

Yes, I do! :D In fact, he's become one of my favorites. There's something about his music that not only fascinates me but moves me emotionally/intellectually. Of course when it comes to British composers, I like many of them, but I only love a few.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Philoctetes on May 10, 2012, 09:26:48 PM
Quote from: raduneo on May 10, 2012, 08:52:55 PM
Hahaha, someone really likes Tippett. :P

Don't take it too seriously, that poster is pathological.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2012, 09:34:53 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on May 10, 2012, 09:26:48 PM
Don't take it too seriously, that poster is pathological.

Hmmm....
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: eyeresist on May 10, 2012, 10:26:27 PM

... pathologically AWESOME :D :D :D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 12, 2012, 05:53:24 PM
Listened to this recording this afternoon:

[asin]B00103N2GU[/asin]

There were a couple of things I didn't like about the performance: 1. I didn't care much for the tenor Jerry Hadley, the other performances were pretty good, but I would say Ute Selbig and Nora Gubisch were the finer soloists, 2. the recessed sound of the chorus which isn't that much of a big deal but it was noticeable enough to take from some of the ambient beauty of the work, and 3. the strange tempi that Colin Davis employed in some of the negro spiritual sections like Nobody knows the trouble I see and O, by and by. Apart from these negatives, I felt that generally the performance was quite good and that Davis gave the listener an emotional account of this much-loved oratorio. I prefer this recording to Tippett's own, which I wasn't terribly impressed with.

Now, I'm waiting on the LSO Live Davis recording...


Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on May 12, 2012, 08:41:03 PM
Davis/Teldec

Just had a major introduction by way of the Davis disc on  Telarc. It's funny, I hear Finzi and Harris, and a lot of other sounds, but my! :o what busy busy music! That is my positive response to what I have to call 'College Music' (that doesn't mean 'student work', that means 'gay British undergrad'). I have to be honest and say that I couldn't get Tippett's personal life out of his music,... all that passionate, thrusting musical counterpoint,... I almost felt like I needed a shower (eeeew :-\), haha, but seriously, I try to concentrate on the abstract, but Tippett here certainly wears his heart on his sleeve: this music is 'human' music, very full of drama. This is music for a beautiful spring morning, with a breeze.

I can see where a bad performance could kill this music. I figured Davis and Teldec would deliver, and, I suppose so, for, though, perhaps, I might opine to call the music just ever so slightly convoluted ::), it is played with all the zippy fast bits right in their place, so that it held together like a tapestry, woven.

I don't think I'll be going any further (it's all on YT), but I like these pieces here a lot. They really were that nimble, 'neo classical' sound I was looking for, perhaps Finzi/RVW + Hindemith + old school counterpoint? I would want ever cd to sound like this, but this one is perfect.

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on May 13, 2012, 07:49:06 AM
Can't say I was particularly impressed with the Andrew Davis recording. I thought the performances lacked that extra bit of energy the Hickox and Marriner performances had. Ritual Dances was pretty well performed, but again, more energy and excitement would have helped. This said, they weren't "bad" performances, but I just felt it could have been better.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on May 29, 2012, 12:47:20 AM
Some rare Tippett is now available for the first time either as a download or as a CD. This 70 minute compilation includes The Shires Suite conducted by the composer at the 1970 Cheltenham Feastival along with other works by Tippett (Piano Concerto, Fanfare for Brass) plus a riotous Ives Circus Band conducted by SMT. Well worth a listen.
http://www.klassichaus.us/
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on June 02, 2012, 11:33:51 AM
Finished my first Tippett cd this evening:

(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2387/tippettmarriner.jpg)

Enjoyed it all very much. The Double Concerto really moved me, an incredibly beautiful piece, full of drive and incredible power and passion! The Fantasia Concertante was also incredibly beautiful. The other works on the cd I enjoyed very much too, the Suite for the Birthday of Prince Charles certainly made me smile!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: North Star on June 02, 2012, 01:20:12 PM
Excellent, Daniel!
I should get to know more Tippett myself, the Fantasie Concertante is the only thing I've heard, apart from a part of the Concerto for double string orchestra listened from youtube (thanks for the link, Luke) at the university...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on June 02, 2012, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: North Star on June 02, 2012, 01:20:12 PM
Excellent, Daniel!
I should get to know more Tippett myself, the Fantasie Concertante is the only thing I've heard, apart from a part of the Concerto for double string orchestra listened from youtube (thanks for the link, Luke) at the university...

Thanks, Karlo! Oh, the Concerto for Double String Orchestra is absolutely divine, I am sure you would love it.

Looking forward to listening to more Tippett, hopefully the 'Rose Lake' very soon! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on June 02, 2012, 07:18:37 PM
Happy that you're enjoying Tippett's music, Daniel. Look forward to your impressions of The Rose Lake. 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on June 03, 2012, 09:27:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 02, 2012, 07:18:37 PM
Happy that you're enjoying Tippett's music, Daniel. Look forward to your impressions of The Rose Lake. 8)

Thanks, John. :)

This afternoon, I listened to 'A Child of Our Time' for the first time, Tippett's own Naxos recording with the CBSO, and was extremely moved by it. Such incredibly beautiful music. After the piece had finished, I had to repeat two of the spirituals quite a few times as I found them so beautiful, they brought tears to my eyes! The whole piece was amazing, I look forward to hearing it again! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on June 03, 2012, 07:00:42 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on June 03, 2012, 09:27:20 AM
Thanks, John. :)

This afternoon, I listened to 'A Child of Our Time' for the first time, Tippett's own Naxos recording with the CBSO, and was extremely moved by it. Such incredibly beautiful music. After the piece had finished, I had to repeat two of the spirituals quite a few times as I found them so beautiful, they brought tears to my eyes! The whole piece was amazing, I look forward to hearing it again! :)

Excellent, Daniel. Glad you enjoyed this work. It's my favorite oratorio. Nothing else like it. By the way, did you go through a whole box of tissues or only half a box this time? ;) :D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on June 04, 2012, 03:14:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 03, 2012, 07:00:42 PM
Excellent, Daniel. Glad you enjoyed this work. It's my favorite oratorio. Nothing else like it. By the way, did you go through a whole box of tissues or only half a box this time? ;) :D

Thanks, John. :)

haha :D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on June 05, 2012, 01:23:30 PM
Listened to the last Tippett cd on the pile today, The Vision of St Augustine, conducted by Tippett himself, and The Rose Lake from C.Davis.

I found the The Vision of St Augustine a very interesting work. I am not sure if I quite understood all of it, but I enjoyed quite a lot of it. Many thrilling moments.

However, I absolutely adored The Rose Lake. What an incredibly wonderful piece! Must say that the orchestration was absolutely sensational, what a treat it must be for percussionists! I shall definitely be wanting to hear that piece again soon, I'll probably buy Hickox's recording as well at some point. What a great piece!

I must thank John for encouraging me to listen to these pieces, many thanks, John! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on June 05, 2012, 01:26:29 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on June 05, 2012, 01:23:30 PM
Listened to the last Tippett cd on the pile today, The Vision of St Augustine, conducted by Tippett himself, and The Rose Lake from C.Davis.

I found the The Vision of St Augustine a very interesting work. I am not sure if I quite understood all of it, but I enjoyed quite a lot of it. Many thrilling moments.

However, I absolutely adored The Rose Lake. What an incredibly wonderful piece! Must say that the orchestration was absolutely sensational, what a treat it must be for percussionists! I shall definitely be wanting to hear that piece again soon, I'll probably buy Hickox's recording as well at some point. What a great piece!

I must thank John for encouraging me to listen to these pieces, many thanks, John! :)

You're welcome, Daniel. It's always a joy to read that others enjoy the same music I do. 8) Now, onto the symphonies...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on June 29, 2012, 07:59:32 AM
A very decent A Child of Our Time from De Montfort Hall, Leicester in 1982. The LSSO and Leicestershire Chorale is conducted by Peter Fletcher.

http://www.klassichaus.us/
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2012, 01:25:21 PM
Come on guys we can't let this thread die! Daniel, how are you enjoying Tippett's music? He's an endlessly fascinating composer to me. There are so many beautiful moments in his music.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on August 29, 2012, 04:14:55 PM
John!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on August 29, 2012, 05:21:41 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 29, 2012, 04:14:55 PM
John!

Karl, my man. Good to see you again.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 31, 2012, 06:16:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2012, 01:25:21 PM
Come on guys we can't let this thread die! Daniel, how are you enjoying Tippett's music? He's an endlessly fascinating composer to me. There are so many beautiful moments in his music.

Very much, thank you, John! Although, it's been quite a while since I last listened to anything of his.... I might put some on now. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on August 31, 2012, 06:59:14 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 31, 2012, 06:16:05 AM
Very much, thank you, John! Although, it's been quite a while since I last listened to anything of his.... I might put some on now. :)

For me, it doesn't get much better than RVW, Tippett, Britten, and Rubbra as far as British music goes. I do like many more British composers as well, but these are really the ones that continue to inspire me.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 01, 2012, 05:36:56 AM
Listening to Tippett's Fantasia on a Theme of Handel for the first time at the moment, it's just coming to a close. What a brilliant work, I have enjoyed it very very much. This joins the Concerto for Double String Orchestra, A Child of Our Time and The Rose Lake as my current favourite Tippett pieces.

Thanks again, John, for the recommendation! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: North Star on September 01, 2012, 05:41:31 AM
Daniel, have you heard the Fantasia on a theme of Corelli yet?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 01, 2012, 05:48:18 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 01, 2012, 05:41:31 AM
Daniel, have you heard the Fantasia on a theme of Corelli yet?

I listened to it quite a while ago, Karlo - certainly a great work which I enjoyed very much! :) Have you listened to the Concerto for Double String Orchestra yet, Karlo?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: North Star on September 01, 2012, 06:37:09 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 01, 2012, 05:48:18 AM
I listened to it quite a while ago, Karlo - certainly a great work which I enjoyed very much! :) Have you listened to the Concerto for Double String Orchestra yet, Karlo?

Yes, from Youtube last winter / spring - at least some months before you listened to the Corelli vars. Listening to it again (not for the second time, though)

Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Walter Goehr (1952)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myBKN-m9yEU
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 01, 2012, 07:10:10 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 01, 2012, 05:36:56 AM
Listening to Tippett's Fantasia on a Theme of Handel for the first time at the moment, it's just coming to a close. What a brilliant work, I have enjoyed it very very much. This joins the Concerto for Double String Orchestra, A Child of Our Time and The Rose Lake as my current favourite Tippett pieces.

Thanks again, John, for the recommendation! :)

Daniel, you've got to hear Richard Hickox's performance of A Child of Our Time. For me, this is the definitive recording of the work. Hickox also did a fantastic Rose Lake and Concerto for Double String Orchestra. Hickox and Davis are both highly regarded Tippett conductors.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 01, 2012, 08:18:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 01, 2012, 07:10:10 AM
Daniel, you've got to hear Richard Hickox's performance of A Child of Our Time. For me, this is the definitive recording of the work. Hickox also did a fantastic Rose Lake and Concerto for Double String Orchestra. Hickox and Davis are both highly regarded Tippett conductors.

Yes, I would very much like to hear this performances. I'll try and get hold of them at some point. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 01, 2012, 08:27:22 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 01, 2012, 08:18:57 AM
Yes, I would very much like to hear this performances. I'll try and get hold of them at some point. :)

You definitely should, Daniel. You would enjoy these performances immensely. Divertimento on Sellinger's Round is another work you should hear. You can find it on YouTube I'm sure. Have you heard any of Tippett's symphonies yet?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 01, 2012, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 01, 2012, 08:27:22 AM
You definitely should, Daniel. You would enjoy these performances immensely. Divertimento on Sellinger's Round is another work you should hear. You can find it on YouTube I'm sure. Have you heard any of Tippett's symphonies yet?

I will make sure to do so, John! Thank you for that recommendation, I shall try and find it on youtube soon. The only Tippett symphony I have heard is the first, which I enjoyed quite a lot, if not as much as the other works I listed as my favourites a little earlier. I probably need to relisten to it. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 01, 2012, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 01, 2012, 12:44:40 PM
I will make sure to do so, John! Thank you for that recommendation, I shall try and find it on youtube soon. The only Tippett symphony I have heard is the first, which I enjoyed quite a lot, if not as much as the other works I listed as my favourites a little earlier. I probably need to relisten to it. :)

Tippett's symphonies are wiry little hairballs. They require a certain frame of mind before listening I think because they're so different than his other music. The 3rd and 4th symphonies are the two that will probably give you the most problems as they're quite angular, jagged, and rhythmically arresting. The 4th gets a lot of unfair criticism I think because it has some human breathing in the music, but what the symphony symbolizes is the cycle of life: we are born, we live our life, and then we die. The breathing represents the last gasps of life. If you keep in mind that the breathing is merely only an effect, then you should be fine, but it really doesn't add anything to the music itself other than give it a strange Tippettian overtone.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 02, 2012, 04:13:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 01, 2012, 08:41:58 PM
Tippett's symphonies are wiry little hairballs. They require a certain frame of mind before listening I think because they're so different than his other music. The 3rd and 4th symphonies are the two that will probably give you the most problems as they're quite angular, jagged, and rhythmically arresting. The 4th gets a lot of unfair criticism I think because it has some human breathing in the music, but what the symphony symbolizes is the cycle of life: we are born, we live our life, and then we die. The breathing represents the last gasps of life. If you keep in mind that the breathing is merely only an effect, then you should be fine, but it really doesn't add anything to the music itself other than give it a strange Tippettian overtone.

The 4th symphony certainly sounds like a very fascinating work, John. I'm very interested to hear it. Maybe I'll take a listen to his symphonies later this week. And sorry, this may be a silly question if the answer is rather simple, but what do you mean by 'breathing'? Is this vocal effect used in the symphony?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 02, 2012, 05:01:32 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 02, 2012, 04:13:00 AM....what do you mean by 'breathing'? Is this vocal effect used in the symphony?

The score calls for wind machine but the "breathing" can be done (and effectively) with an amplified vocalist (as in the Hickox recording). And it is the actual sound of breathing.

Sarge
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 02, 2012, 05:07:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 02, 2012, 05:01:32 AM
The score calls for wind machine but the "breathing" can be done (and effectively) with an amplified vocalist (as in the Hickox recording). And it is the actual sound of breathing.

Sarge

Thanks for the feedback, Sarge, sounds like a really fascinating work. Have found Hickox's performance on youtube, will hopefully listen to that at some point during the next week, maybe I'll listen to all 4 this week! Am I right to avoid the Solti performance? I have noticed in the past none of you have been too keen on it?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 02, 2012, 06:40:11 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 02, 2012, 05:07:36 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Sarge, sounds like a really fascinating work. Have found Hickox's performance on youtube, will hopefully listen to that at some point during the next week, maybe I'll listen to all 4 this week! Am I right to avoid the Solti performance? I have noticed in the past none of you have been too keen on it?

I'm not one of the Solti haters. His was my first Tippett 4 and I've always liked it. It's not subtle though :D  I've never done a direct comparison between Hickox and Solti. I should do that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 02, 2012, 07:22:41 AM
I hate Solti's Tippett 4 performance. It's really horrible actually. I think Tippett's own performance and Hickox get it right. Checkout this recording, Daniel:

[asin]B0006L5SDM[/asin]

This is an essential purchase for the Tippettian. NMC reissued this CD as it was originally released under BBC Music Magazine. I'm glad NMC brought the recording to light again.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 03, 2012, 05:08:15 AM
Thank you, Sarge and John, for the feedback. I very much look forward to hearing this symphony! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lescamil on September 03, 2012, 06:32:21 AM
Are there any performances of Tippett 4 that actually use a wind machine? So far, I have only heard the breathing effect.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 05, 2012, 05:48:18 AM
Just finished listening to Tippett's 1st symphony for the first time.... what an absolutely amazing work! I really really enjoyed this. I love the energy and drive in the outer movements and presto and the power and passion in the slow movement is very moving. The power in the ending of the symphony is absolutely incredible, I found this extremely inspiring. I find myself repeating the last movement quite a few times. Certainly an amazing work I'm sure I'll be returning to. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 05, 2012, 10:09:55 AM
Quote from: lescamil on September 03, 2012, 06:32:21 AM
Are there any performances of Tippett 4 that actually use a wind machine? So far, I have only heard the breathing effect.

No, all three of them use the breathing effect.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 15, 2012, 06:22:59 AM
Listening to Tippett's 2nd symphony for the first time this afternoon, what a great work! I enjoyed all of it. A really thrilling piece, with many very beautiful moments too. I really loved his orchestration too, for example, the use of the piano and harps, especially in the scherzo movement. A great piece! Looking forward to hearing the 3rd symphony now! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 15, 2012, 07:16:45 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 15, 2012, 06:22:59 AM
Listening to Tippett's 2nd symphony for the first time this afternoon, what a great work! I enjoyed all of it. A really thrilling piece, with many very beautiful moments too. I really loved his orchestration too, for example, the use of the piano and harps, especially in the scherzo movement. A great piece! Looking forward to hearing the 3rd symphony now! :)

Cool, Daniel. Tippett's 2nd is a great work. The 3rd is a different animal as is the 4th.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2012, 01:36:45 PM
Our young Daniel will be a Tippettian before we know it. Just some more listening and he'll be brought over to the darkside. 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 18, 2012, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2012, 01:36:45 PM
Our young Daniel will be a Tippettian before we know it. Just some more listening and he'll be brought over to the darkside. 8)
#
haha ;D
Yes, I think so, John! All the Tippett I have been listening to recently I have been really really enjoying, especially the first two symphonies. Really excited to hear the other two as well! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2012, 01:51:48 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 18, 2012, 01:43:10 PM
#
haha ;D
Yes, I think so, John! All the Tippett I have been listening to recently I have been really really enjoying, especially the first two symphonies. Really excited to hear the other two as well! :)

Once you've absorbed the symphonies, you really must hear The Midsummer Marriage, which for me is the best British opera I've heard. Tippett's other operas are less accessible, but contain some memorable, striking parts. I even like this work for brass band, bells, and percussion called Praeludium:

http://www.youtube.com/v/RGsSnMJgXjA
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on September 19, 2012, 02:23:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2012, 01:36:45 PM
Our young Daniel will be a Tippettian before we know it. Just some more listening and he'll be brought over to the darkside. 8)

An oddly Tippettian metaphor, recalling the opening of A Child of Our Time!

The world turns on its dark side.
It is winter....

But of course the Jungian truth of it, as we hear at the end of the work, is:

I would know my shadow and my light,
So shall I at last be whole

Therefore coming over to Tippett isn't coming over to the darkside, it is simply arriving at a place which is right and wholesome   ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 08:39:08 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 19, 2012, 02:23:05 AM
An oddly Tippettian metaphor, recalling the opening of A Child of Our Time!

The world turns on its dark side.
It is winter....

But of course the Jungian truth of it, as we hear at the end of the work, is:

I would know my shadow and my light,
So shall I at last be whole

Therefore coming over to Tippett isn't coming over to the darkside, it is simply arriving at a place which is right and wholesome   ;D  ;D

:P Interesting, Luke.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 19, 2012, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2012, 01:51:48 PM
Once you've absorbed the symphonies, you really must hear The Midsummer Marriage, which for me is the best British opera I've heard. Tippett's other operas are less accessible, but contain some memorable, striking parts. I even like this work for brass band, bells, and percussion called Praeludium:

http://www.youtube.com/v/RGsSnMJgXjA

Thanks for the recommendations, John! I'll make sure to give the Ritual Dances from The Midsummer Marriage a listen too! And I'll make sure to listen to the Praeludium you have posted too. I have noticed Tippett has written some pretty great percussion parts, so I'll look forward to hearing this piece! :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lescamil on September 19, 2012, 04:50:28 PM
There was a Michael Tippett shoutout today in a class I'm taking on 20th century compositional techniques! My professor said that Tippett was a pretty bad composer, aside from a A Child in Our Time. Unfortunately, that seems to be how most concert programmers think, apparently, since this is the only work that gets regularly played in concert halls. Had I been sitting in a better spot in class, and had there been time, I would have made my case for Tippett's genius! He wrote lots of good stuff besides that work.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 05:10:30 PM
Quote from: lescamil on September 19, 2012, 04:50:28 PM
There was a Michael Tippett shoutout today in a class I'm taking on 20th century compositional techniques! My professor said that Tippett was a pretty bad composer, aside from a A Child in Our Time. Unfortunately, that seems to be how most concert programmers think, apparently, since this is the only work that gets regularly played in concert halls. Had I been sitting in a better spot in class, and had there been time, I would have made my case for Tippett's genius! He wrote lots of good stuff besides that work.

Usually, professors or anyone in an academic position seems to be in disfavor of Tippett it seems, but who really cares? I know I don't. I love the man's music and I think for anyone to not come away from listening to say his Piano Concerto with a greater appreciation for his music wasn't really interested in the composer to begin with nor did they want to make an effort. To be honest, I didn't like his music all that much to begin with, but there was something that was utterly fascinating about it. It sounded so wrong to me, but I later realized that something so wrong could end up sounding so right. :) Once I read more of his biography (he led a very interesting life), I came away with a thirst for his music and I'm happy to say that I'm a full-fledged Tippettian at this juncture. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on September 19, 2012, 06:05:18 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 19, 2012, 02:24:37 PM
Thanks for the recommendations, John! I'll make sure to give the Ritual Dances from The Midsummer Marriage a listen too! And I'll make sure to listen to the Praeludium you have posted too. I have noticed Tippett has written some pretty great percussion parts, so I'll look forward to hearing this piece! :)

Praeludium is a short piece, but it is highly enjoyable and contains some wonderful melodic ideas. Yes, the Ritual Dances gives you an idea of the music in The Midsummer Marriage since it's essentially a concert suite of sorts that is derived from music of this opera.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2012, 06:08:05 AM
.
http://www.youtube.com/v/gnYZvQHxOyE
Currently listening to Tippett's 3rd symphony for the first time and am certainly impressed! This is certainly a very thrilling, engaging work!
Tippett's orchestration is amazing, incredible percussion writing! The rhythmic energy and constant drive is also incredibly exciting.

Really enjoying this! :)

Edit: that Beethoven 9 quotation in the finale certainly caught me by surprise!!!!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 07:26:09 AM
I must confess to really liking the earlier Tippett up to the Concerto for Orchestra of 1962-63 but not being able to come to terms with later Tippett at all :( I can appreciate the merits of the Fourth Symphony but not like it and I positively dislike the Third :(

However...I have no difficulty with an assessment of Tippett as an exceptionally fine composer :)

There was an very interesting article in a British newspaper recently comparing the reputations of Tippett and Benjamin Britten. Tippett was a friend of Britten's for a time until-as happened with several of Britten's friendships-the relationship cooled. Composers are, notoriously, often very unworldly and often give very little thought to the issue of sustaining their reputations. Britten was a past-master at this, building a power-base around the Aldeburgh Festival and elevating his (admittedly well-deserved) reputation through regular performances and recordings. By the late 50s and onwards he had achieved the status of the greatest living British composer-to the considerable annoyance of many of his contemporaries(Sir William Walton, in particular, was always extremely bitter about Britten's success).

As long as a composer remains alive his music stands a chance of remaining in the public eye so long as orchestral managements and conductors are prepared to programme the music and the BBC to broadcast it. The key period are the years/decades immediately after a composer's death. Frequently the music falls very quickly out of the repertoire and can be forgotten. Even giants like Sibelius and Vaughan Williams suffered a period of neglect after their deaths. Often the great composers' music can come back into fashion but for others it may take longer and-if it does-the real danger can be that a generation of younger conductors and BBC music producers can grow up unfamiliar with the music.
For some composers(the Peter Racine Frickers, Iain Hamiltons of British music, for example) the neglect may be so grave that their music is now totally forgotten and ignored because the key people have never heard any of the music :(

Tippett is unlikely to suffer that fate. All of his music has been recorded (which is a huge advantage :)) and will, in consequence, have a life even if it is neglected in the concert-hall.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on October 29, 2012, 07:37:26 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2012, 06:08:05 AM
.
http://www.youtube.com/v/gnYZvQHxOyE
Currently listening to Tippett's 3rd symphony for the first time and am certainly impressed! This is certainly a very thrilling, engaging work!
Tippett's orchestration is amazing, incredible percussion writing! The rhythmic energy and constant drive is also incredibly exciting.

Really enjoying this! :)

Edit: that Beethoven 9 quotation in the finale certainly caught me by surprise!!!!

A good work, Daniel. I don't find it as engaging as his 2nd or 4th, but it has some great moments. Good to see you're warming to later Tippett too. :) You should try the Triple Concerto next.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on October 29, 2012, 07:41:05 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 07:26:09 AM
I must confess to really liking the earlier Tippett up to the Concerto for Orchestra of 1962-63 but not being able to come to terms with later Tippett at all :( I can appreciate the merits of the Fourth Symphony but not like it and I positively dislike the Third :(

However...I have no difficulty with an assessment of Tippett as an exceptionally fine composer :)

There was an very interesting article in a British newspaper recently comparing the reputations of Tippett and Benjamin Britten. Tippett was a friend of Britten's for a time until-as happened with several of Britten's friendships-the relationship cooled. Composers are, notoriously, often very unworldly and often give very little thought to the issue of sustaining their reputations. Britten was a past-master at this, building a power-base around the Aldeburgh Festival and elevating his (admittedly well-deserved) reputation through regular performances and recordings. By the late 50s and onwards he had achieved the status of the greatest living British composer-to the considerable annoyance of many of his contemporaries(Sir William Walton, in particular, was always extremely bitter about Britten's success).

As long as a composer remains alive his music stands a chance of remaining in the public eye so long as orchestral managements and conductors are prepared to programme the music and the BBC to broadcast it. The key period are the years/decades immediately after a composer's death. Frequently the music falls very quickly out of the repertoire and can be forgotten. Even giants like Sibelius and Vaughan Williams suffered a period of neglect after their deaths. Often the great composers' music can come back into fashion but for others it may take longer and-if it does-the real danger can be that a generation of younger conductors and BBC music producers can grow up unfamiliar with the music.
For some composers(the Peter Racine Frickers, Iain Hamiltons of British music, for example) the neglect may be so grave that their music is now totally forgotten and ignored because the key people have never heard any of the music :(

Tippett is unlikely to suffer that fate. All of his music has been recorded (which is a huge advantage :)) and will, in consequence, have a life even if it is neglected in the concert-hall.

Interesting assessment, Colin. You're right about a composer who has been recorded having some kind of chance of staying alive. I mean look at Havergal Brian or Rubbra. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 07:47:17 AM
If it helps at all:

SIR MICHAEL TIPPETT: A CATALOGUE OF THE ORCHESTRAL MUSIC

1938-39:Concerto for Double String Orchestra: 23 minutes   +  (several recordings)
1939-41:Fantasia on a Theme of Handel for Piano and Orchestra: 13 minutes     + (Chandos and Hyperion cds)
                Oratorio "A Child of Our Time" for soprano, mezzo-soprano, tenor, bass, chorus and orchestra: 69 minutes   + (Chandos, Naxos, Profil and LSO Live cds)
1944-45:Symphony No.1: 36 minutes    +  (Decca and Chandos cds)
1946:      Little Music for string orchestra: 10 minutes   +  (several recordings)
1948:      Suite in D for the Birthday of Prince Charles for orchestra: 14 minutes   +  (Decca, Nimbus and Australian Eloquence cds)
1950:      Song Cycle "The Heart's Assurance" for tenor and orchestra: 17 minutes
1953:      Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli for string orchestra: 19 minutes    +  (several recordings)
                Divertimento on "Sellinger's Round" for chamber orchestra: 19 minutes    +  (Lyrita, Arte Nova and EMI cds)
                Ritual Dances from the Opera "The Midsummer Marriage" for orchestra: 24 minutes   +  (several recordings)
1953-55:Piano Concerto: 35 minutes   + (EMI, Chandos, Nimbus and Naxos cds)
1956-57:Symphony No.2: 33 minutes   + (Decca, Chandos and NMC cds)
1962:      Praeludium for brass, bells and percussion: 6 minutes   +  (Chandos, Albany, Nimbus and Teldec cds)
1962-63:Concerto for Orchestra: 32 minutes    +  (Decca, Philips and Chandos cds)
1963-65:"The Vision of St. Augustine" for baritone, chorus and orchestra: 35 minutes    + (Catalyst and RCA cds)
1965-70:"The Shires Suite" for chorus and orchestra: 18 minutes    +  (Klassic Haus cd)
1970:      "Songs for Dov" for tenor and small orchestra: 26 minutes   + (EMI cd)
1970-72:Symphony No.3 for soprano and orchestra: 55 minutes   +  (Decca and Chandos cds)
1976-77:Symphony No.4: 33 minutes   + (Decca, Chandos and NMC cds)
1978-79:Triple Concerto for Violin, Viola, Cello and Orchestra: 34 minutes    + (Decca, Philips, DGG, Chandos and Nimbus cds)
1980-83:"The Mask of Time" for soprano, mezzo-soprano, tenor, baritone, chorus and orchestra: 95 minutes      +  (EMI cd)
1988-90:Suite from the Opera "New Year" for orchestra: 29 minutes   +  (Chandos cd)
                "Byzantium" for soprano and orchestra: 25 minutes   +  (Decca cd)
1991-93:"The Rose Lake" for orchestra: 29 minutes    +  (Chandos, Catalyst and RCA cds)

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on October 29, 2012, 07:50:13 AM
Thanks for that post, Colin. I've heard all of these works. :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 07:50:42 AM
Dead composers need champions/advocates :)  Simple as.

Whether those champions are conductors, critics/writers, societies dedicated to keeping their name and music going, record labels. Without those the music will end up neglected and ignored :(
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 05:02:45 PM
So I got my first Tippett set, this one:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AGXRgWRbcMQ/US-bv4ssO-I/AAAAAAABZyY/7zOAVh0_cFQ/s400/tippett+portada.PNG)

I've heard nothing of Tippett, but since I'm digging English composers I thought why not?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2013, 05:27:57 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 05:02:45 PM
So I got my first Tippett set, this one:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AGXRgWRbcMQ/US-bv4ssO-I/AAAAAAABZyY/7zOAVh0_cFQ/s400/tippett+portada.PNG)

I've heard nothing of Tippett, but since I'm digging English composers I thought why not?

Excellent, Leo! I don't like the Solti' 4th performance in that set, but Hickox or the composer's own performance can supplement the Solti. Concerto for Double String Orchestra and Ritual Dances should be right up your alley. If you go through this thread you'll see many recommendations from yours truly. There's also some great posts by Luke who is no stranger to Tippett's music.
Title: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 07:01:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 01, 2013, 05:27:57 PM
Excellent, Leo! I don't like the Solti' 4th performance in that set, but Hickox or the composer's own performance can supplement the Solti. Concerto for Double String Orchestra and Ritual Dances should be right up your alley. If you go through this thread you'll see many recommendations from yours truly. There's also some great posts by Luke who is no stranger to Tippett's music.

I can't wait to go through the thread as I haven't yet.

Twenty five years ago I worked at a library and would see a certain biography of Tippett in the book-drop room. Someone must've dug him 'cause I saw this book come through a lot. I should've checked out the music then.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2013, 07:16:47 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 07:01:43 PM
I can't wait to go through the thread as I haven't yet.

Twenty five years ago I worked at a library and would see a certain biography of Tippett in the book-drop room. Someone must've dug him 'cause I saw this book come through a lot. I should've checked out the music then.

He led an interesting life that's for sure. He lived the English countryside most of his life and preferred this to the hustle and bustle of London. He is a composer, like Delius, who's been quite controversial and has divided opinion. But, for me, Tippett's music is honest and genuinely from the heart. Listen to this when you have time, Leo:

http://www.youtube.com/v/9X2isPqDYsc
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on March 02, 2013, 04:04:51 PM
David Robertson on Tippett in the Guardian this weekend: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/feb/28/michael-tippett-david-robertson

I'm glad to see from the comments section to that article that I'm not the only person who finds the "ice break" music from The Ice Break sending shivers up my spine. (Its reappearance in Nadia's death scene is, for me, one of those extraordinary moments that render Tippett's flaws trivial in comparison.)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: relm1 on July 18, 2014, 03:59:51 PM
I am not very aware of Michael Tippett's ovoeuvre other than "A Child of Our Time" which I consider to be a very fine work.  I did hear "The Mask of Time" while in college but otherwise little of his music.  How does one approach this composer?  Is he somewhere between Britten and Maxwell Davies style wise?  Any suggested works to ease someone into this composer?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on July 18, 2014, 05:46:10 PM
If you like A Child of Our Time I'd be tempted to suggest the two major string orchestra works (Concerto for Double String Orchestra and Fantasia Concertante on a theme of Corelli), plus the piano concerto and the 2nd symphony.

From King Priam--to my mind the pick of his operas--on, his music tends to be much less consonant and more gritty: I really like the last two symphonies but they tend to divide listeners. The late works, from The Mask of Time on, I find less interesting and prone to recycling ideas; the valedictory The Rose Lake is probably the standout here.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: relm1 on July 18, 2014, 06:49:28 PM
Thank you, Edward.  What is his general style like?  I mean, if one likes ___, they will like Tippett?
Title: Re: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2014, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 18, 2014, 06:49:28 PM
..., if one likes ___, they will like Tippett?

That is a marvelously tangled question....
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: not edward on July 19, 2014, 08:43:55 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 18, 2014, 06:49:28 PM
Thank you, Edward.  What is his general style like?  I mean, if one likes ___, they will like Tippett?
I don't think there's a useful answer to this: even the more conservative, earlier works have a tendency to subvert their models, while the later works sound like nobody else.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: springrite on July 19, 2014, 08:46:21 AM
If you like Michael Palin, you may like Tippett.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: relm1 on July 20, 2014, 01:07:24 AM
Well I am traversing his symphonies and really enjoy it.  The one work I really am curious about (the opera New Year) seems impossible to find.  But so far really good. 
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: relm1 on July 20, 2014, 05:59:43 PM
After listening to all symphonies (and just about to embark on the operas), it seems to me Michael Tippett can be compared to Egon Wellesz or maybe Daniel Jones.  The early music is quite traditional yet well crafted.  The later music has a tremendous evolution and is quite experimental and distinctive.  It is actually hard to associate the late style is the same composer.  The skill is still there.  Thoughts??  I love the surprises I am experiencing exploring this music.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on July 20, 2014, 06:27:22 PM
I tend to like Tippett's early music more, but will freely admit that The Rose Lake is one of his best works of any period. Have you heard it yet, relm1?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: relm1 on July 21, 2014, 04:09:40 PM
I have not yet heard "The Rose Lake" but thanks for your recommendation.  I'll certainly check it out.  I have completed my survey of the symphonies and very much enjoyed them all.  I would say the composer Tippett seems most similar to sound wise is Alun Hoddinott as a whole.  The music finely crafted, dramatic, well structured, and rich in colors and texture.  They both have a dramatic sensibility and austerity yet can be extremely delicate too.  I can hear some Per Norgard and Kaija Saariaho in his later music (Symphony No. 4) too.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2014, 04:48:58 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 21, 2014, 04:09:40 PM
I have not yet heard "The Rose Lake" but thanks for your recommendation.  I'll certainly check it out.  I have completed my survey of the symphonies and very much enjoyed them all.

Cool . . . I must give them another go soon.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 08, 2014, 10:44:26 PM
Does anyone know if Tippett early Symphony in G minor form the 30s has ever been played or recorded? I seem to remember his biographer saying it wasn't bad and he couldn't think why Tippett disowned it.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: EigenUser on March 18, 2015, 12:20:59 AM
Okay, so I love the Tippett PC. What should I hear next?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: North Star on March 18, 2015, 12:22:54 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on March 18, 2015, 12:20:59 AM
Okay, so I love the Tippett PC. What should I hear next?
Concerto for double string orchestra, Fantasia concertante on a theme of Corelli, and A Child of Our Time.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 18, 2015, 06:30:51 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 18, 2015, 12:22:54 AM
Concerto for double string orchestra, Fantasia concertante on a theme of Corelli, and A Child of Our Time.

I would add Symphonies 2 & 3 and The Rose Lake to this list. 8)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Ken B on March 18, 2015, 11:43:40 AM
Quote from: North Star on March 18, 2015, 12:22:54 AM
Concerto for double string orchestra, Fantasia concertante on a theme of Corelli, and A Child of Our Time.
Seconded.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Daverz on March 18, 2015, 12:39:08 PM
I see a Conifer CD and a Chandos CD of Rose Lake?  Any druthers?  Presto has the Chandos for lossless download.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on March 18, 2015, 06:34:15 PM
Quote from: Daverz on March 18, 2015, 12:39:08 PM
I see a Conifer CD and a Chandos CD of Rose Lake?  Any druthers?  Presto has the Chandos for lossless download.

I prefer the Hickox on Chandos, but YMMV.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on March 22, 2015, 07:57:04 PM
one of the few symphonic cycles left , but that Decca is always so expensive... I'd only want the one with 1-3. $$$ $$$
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: John Whitmore on April 22, 2015, 04:58:27 AM
Anybody on here checked these downloads out? They are all restorations of tapes and vinyl LPs from my own personal collection.The download quality is excellent.
KHCD-2012-016 Tippett conducting Prince Charles Suite first commercial recording on Pye
KHCD-2012-017 Complete Shires Suite commercial Unicorn recording
KHCD-2012-022  Tippett conducting excerpts from Shires Suite on Argo
LSSO-CD1 Tippett conducting the first performance of Shires Suite in 1970 plus other works by Tippett and Ives
LSSO-CD2 Concert performance of A Child of Our Time
http://klassichaus.us/LSSO-CDs-MP3s.php
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom ?????????WHICH SYMPHONY SET TO GET?????
Post by: snyprrr on November 05, 2015, 03:07:10 PM
In excruciating detail, which set, or individual, or what, do I get for the Symphonies? 1-3 are important, 4 not so much...


thank you, please!! :-*
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on November 05, 2015, 03:10:29 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 05, 2015, 03:07:10 PM
In excruciating detail, which set, or individual, or what, do I get for the Symphonies? 1-3 are important, 4 not so much...


thank you, please!! :-*

As I mentioned, earlier in the year:

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 18, 2015, 06:34:15 PM
I prefer the Hickox on Chandos, but YMMV.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: snyprrr on November 06, 2015, 01:15:26 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 05, 2015, 03:10:29 PM
As I mentioned, earlier in the year:

YMMV = you may  ___   ____

I've found I'm not good at this newspeak... ttyt... k?


anyhow, gotcha on the tipp


So, is the 'News Years' Music the worst music of all time??
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on November 06, 2015, 01:50:17 PM


Quote from: snyprrr on November 06, 2015, 01:15:26 PM
YMMV = you may  ___   ____

Your Mileage May Vary
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: The new erato on November 07, 2015, 12:19:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 06, 2015, 01:50:17 PM

Your Mileage May Vary
Particularly if you've got a VW.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Maestro267 on November 04, 2016, 12:14:41 PM
Resurrecting this thread to say how much I've enjoyed listening to Tippett's 2nd and 4th Symphonies, which I got a recording of today (an old BBC disc conducted by the composer himself). First time I've heard both works.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: vandermolen on November 04, 2016, 01:37:15 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 04, 2016, 12:14:41 PM
Resurrecting this thread to say how much I've enjoyed listening to Tippett's 2nd and 4th Symphonies, which I got a recording of today (an old BBC disc conducted by the composer himself). First time I've heard both works.
I like Symphony 2 but No.1 remains my favourite.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on November 05, 2016, 06:06:59 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 06, 2015, 01:15:26 PM
YMMV = you may  ___   ____

I've found I'm not good at this newspeak... ttyt... k?


anyhow, gotcha on the tipp


So, is the 'News Years' Music the worst music of all time??

It took you nearly 8 months to ask what YMMV means? :o I wouldn't trust you with a paper route. ;D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: DaveF on November 05, 2016, 09:13:01 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 04, 2016, 12:14:41 PM
Resurrecting this thread to say how much I've enjoyed listening to Tippett's 2nd and 4th Symphonies, which I got a recording of today (an old BBC disc conducted by the composer himself). First time I've heard both works.

Have that disc myself - it's a wonderful account of the 4th, but the 2nd sounds scrappy and under-rehearsed to my ears.  If you try Hickox or Colin Davis in no.2, you'll be astonished - guaranteed.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Maestro267 on November 06, 2016, 03:29:35 AM
I don't understand how something can sound "under-rehearsed" if one is hearing the piece for the first time ever. I'm perfectly fine with this recording of it. It does change my plan of picking up the complete cycle now; all I really need are individual discs with No. 1 and No. 3 on them, and the Chandos No. 1 also has the Piano Concerto on it, thus killing two birds with one stone, metaphorically speaking.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Heck148 on November 06, 2016, 04:35:23 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 06, 2016, 03:29:35 AM
..... It does change my plan of picking up the complete cycle now; all I really need are individual discs with No. 1 and No. 3 on them, and the Chandos No. 1 also has the Piano Concerto on it, thus killing two birds with one stone, metaphorically speaking.

Is the great Decca set still available??

1-3 with Colin Davis/LSO
#4  with Solti/CSO - top-notch performance all the way, also -
Suite in D [Prince Chas Birthday] -neat piece!!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: DaveF on November 06, 2016, 12:22:02 PM
Quote from: Heck148 on November 06, 2016, 04:35:23 AM
Is the great Decca set still available??

On Amazon UK, although not particularly cheap:

[asin]B000068QS5[/asin]
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Rons_talking on November 07, 2016, 03:26:27 PM
I recently picked up the Chandos recording of Tippett's symphonies and for the first time listened to the 4th. Some musicians I know consider him too modern, others too tame, but I believe his harmonies, forms, and orchestration make for a brilliant example of what contemporary music can do at its best. I've never sat down with a score and analyzed his work, but his music seems very vibrant and soulful. The textures seem to vary quite a bit and make for original development--quite unpredictable. I have to admit the 3rd S w/vocals is not a favourite but the others seem to be of the highest order. Of course I've listened to "A Child of our Time" as well as his piano and Double concerti, but from Tippett fans I'd like to know what you consider his best works. I'm kicking myself for ignoring his music so long...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 03:42:26 PM
My general problem with Tippett's symphonies, especially nowadays, is that the music is too complex for its own good. There aren't really any memorable themes or ideas that get the juices inside of me flowing. They're knotty, jumbled works that seem to not go anywhere in particular. I like a good bit of Tippett's other music, but the symphonies are just too 'busy' and lacking a distinctive voice that's compelling to listen to.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: DaveF on November 09, 2016, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: Rons_talking on November 07, 2016, 03:26:27 PM
...from Tippett fans I'd like to know what you consider his best works. I'm kicking myself for ignoring his music so long...

I rate a lot of his works very highly, but perhaps a top 10 would be The Midsummer Marriage, Symphonies 2 & 4, the Fantasia Concertante on a theme of Corelli (which his biographer Ian Kemp calls his "most perfect work"), string quartets 3 & 4, The Vision of St Augustine, the Concerto for Orchestra, Dance, Clarion Air and the Concerto for double string orchestra.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Maestro267 on March 23, 2017, 09:32:07 AM
Picked up a 2-disc set today, featuring the Corelli Fantasia, Ritual Dances, the Piano Concerto, the Concerto for Double String Orchestra, Divertimento on Sellinger's Round, Little Music, and Songs for Dov.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2017, 09:34:40 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 23, 2017, 09:32:07 AM
Picked up a 2-disc set today, featuring the Corelli Fantasia, Ritual Dances, the Piano Concerto, the Concerto for Double String Orchestra, Divertimento on Sellinger's Round, Little Music, and Songs for Dov.

When you can, please report!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: North Star on March 23, 2017, 09:44:55 AM
Well, his is a coincidence - I was just reading the thread earlier today, and thinking about picking up this..
[asin]B017752XLO[/asin]
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Herman on October 28, 2017, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: North Star on March 23, 2017, 09:44:55 AM
Well, his is a coincidence - I was just reading the thread earlier today, and thinking about picking up this..
[asin]B017752XLO[/asin]

Maybe you should. It's one of the few places where you can get Tippett's Fifth QUartet and it's a wonderful piece.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: North Star on October 28, 2017, 12:37:18 PM
Quote from: Herman on October 28, 2017, 12:17:14 PM
Maybe you should. It's one of the few places where you can get Tippett's Fifth QUartet and it's a wonderful piece.
Oh I did. On March 30th. ;) And a very good set it is, too.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: kyjo on October 28, 2017, 02:45:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 03:42:26 PM
My general problem with Tippett's symphonies, especially nowadays, is that the music is too complex for its own good. There aren't really any memorable themes or ideas that get the juices inside of me flowing. They're knotty, jumbled works that seem to not go anywhere in particular. I like a good bit of Tippett's other music, but the symphonies are just too 'busy' and lacking a distinctive voice that's compelling to listen to.

I like Tippett's first two symphonies quite a bit, but I do understand what you mean about his music being too complex and "busy" for its own good. That said, I've sampled a bit of his The Rose Lake which sounded quite entrancing.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on October 28, 2017, 09:32:46 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 28, 2017, 02:45:35 PM
I like Tippett's first two symphonies quite a bit, but I do understand what you mean about his music being too complex and "busy" for its own good. That said, I've sampled a bit of his The Rose Lake which sounded quite entrancing.

The Rose Lake is very much worth your time, Kyle.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: vandermolen on October 29, 2017, 01:10:31 AM
A new CD of symphonies 1 and 2 is coming out on Hyperion I think. A former work colleague knew Tippett quite well. He is not one of my favourite composers but I think that the Concerto for Double String Orchestra is a wonderful work. I also like symphonies 1 and 2 the Corelli Variations, the Suite of the Birthday of Prince Charles and the oratorio 'A Child of Our Time', the end of which I find incredibly moving.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: DaveF on October 30, 2017, 01:15:54 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2017, 01:10:31 AM
A new CD of symphonies 1 and 2 is coming out on Hyperion I think.

Yes - conducted by the indefatigable Brabbins.  That is good news - even no.2, a 20th-century masterpiece (IMHO), isn't exactly well-served on disc.  No.1 is superb too, with that rather Shostakovich-like (and rather un-Tippett-like) passacaglia slow movement.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 01, 2018, 10:31:23 PM
I have just posted a recording of the BBC broadcast of the Symphony in Bflat from 1932 ('Symphony No.0')

http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,506.195.html

(You have to register before being able to download).
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2018, 09:46:23 AM
Good job I checked there was a thread for Tippett - otherwise I was going to start Tippett's tribulations...!

Is it just my impression or has Tippett really fallen from favour since his death?  OK there is this Hyperion cycle started of his symphonies - but not much else is being added to the recorded catalogue.  Is he featuring much in concerts?  I really don't know.

He's never been a favourite or even a moderatley liked composer of mine but out of duty(!) rather than pleasure I listened to Symphony No.4 recently from Hickox

[asin]B001MV90LG[/asin]

and goodness me I enjoyed it a lot.  Excellent Chandos engineering backing up really committed BSO playing.  I still think he makes the textures and the musical material too complex - but I'm closely than ever to being convinced......
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: SymphonicAddict on October 12, 2018, 03:30:57 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 12, 2018, 09:46:23 AM
Good job I checked there was a thread for Tippett - otherwise I was going to start Tippett's tribulations...!

Is it just my impression or has Tippett really fallen from favour since his death?  OK there is this Hyperion cycle started of his symphonies - but not much else is being added to the recorded catalogue.  Is he featuring much in concerts?  I really don't know.

He's never been a favourite or even a moderatley liked composer of mine but out of duty(!) rather than pleasure I listened to Symphony No.4 recently from Hickox

[asin]B001MV90LG[/asin]

and goodness me I enjoyed it a lot.  Excellent Chandos engineering backing up really committed BSO playing.  I still think he makes the textures and the musical material too complex - but I'm closely than ever to being convinced......

It's a captivating and mysterious work, it could not be straightforward at first listens but my experience with this symphony is always rewarding. There is a masterful use of the percussion to create some disquieting effects. I only have that recording and I'm quite pleased with it.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Biffo on October 13, 2018, 02:29:39 AM
Several years ago there was quite an active discussion of Tippett and the 4th Symphony in particular. I had owned the Solti/Chicago SO recording for quite some time so I listened to it again; as with my first listening it it did very little for me. Others were enthusiastic so I persisted. I found an analysis of the work and was able to follow it while listening. It clarified the structure of the piece but still didn't endear it to me.

My favourite Tippett pieces are the Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli and the Concerto for Double String Orchestra - Marriner/ASMF is unsurpassed in both.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: knight66 on October 13, 2018, 01:18:24 PM
About the only large scale piece of his that has a foothold in the UK is The Child of Our Time. Up against his operas for example, it is accessable. The contempory champions of his operas have died, Hickox and Davis, and no one currently seems inclined to advocate them. They are like slabs of philosophy stuffed onto the stage. And listening to him explaining them, I felt I could understand why they were so clotted and basically untheatrical.

I can't remember the last time I saw one of his symphonies programmed, mabe a year or so ago in the London Proms.

Perhaps he will be rediscovered. Or perhaps Child of Our Time and the string pieces mentioned will be all that is played.

Mike
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Maestro267 on October 16, 2018, 02:14:19 AM
At least with recordings of many of his works, people have the opportunity to discover Tippett's music, if they wish to dig for it.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: relm1 on October 16, 2018, 06:50:15 AM
I enjoy his late oratorio, The Mask of Time.  It is quite an evocative work spanning 95 minutes.
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Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on October 16, 2018, 07:46:48 AM
I never have been able to appreciate late Tippett. The Mask of Time is no exception. There's one late work which I think is quite beautiful and it's The Rose Lake.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: North Star on October 16, 2018, 07:58:53 AM
Good to see you back, John!

Agreed about The Rose Lake - I think I'll revisit the Hickox recording now, actually. I'd also add the string quartets and the Piano Concerto to the list of Tippett that shouldn't be forgotten..
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2018, 08:26:52 AM
Quote from: North Star on October 16, 2018, 07:58:53 AM
Good to see you back, John!

Agreed about The Rose Lake - I think I'll revisit the Hickox recording now, actually. I'd also add the string quartets and the Piano Concerto to the list of Tippett that shouldn't be forgotten..

Yes, good to see you back indeed.

I must listen to the Rose Lake.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: knight66 on October 16, 2018, 01:16:45 PM
I will give The Rose Lake a listen, it is some time since I heard it. Another very late work, it disappointed me, but I ought to go back to it with my expectations being different. Byzantium was written with Jessye Norman in mind and she had the piece for about a year, only telling Solti and Chicago two weeks before the premier that she was withdrawing for personal reasons. The Soprano who took over at short notice and appears on the disc has a very different kind of voice. It is not her fault that she sounds completely unlike Norman, who possibly was in any case unsuited to the tessitura of the piece. I recall it as sounding fractured, without the long melodies I had hoped for. So, as I say, time for another go at it.

I was conducted by Tippet in two performances of Child of Our Time. He was getting on a bit, though had a fair few years left in him. He absolutely knew the piece in microscopic detail, correcting some parts errors in the brass. He was exceptionally short sighted, checking the score by holding it within a couple of inches of his eyes. He was delightful, like an aging public schoolboy. He wafted his hand at us in the choir and said that he was aware we were there but he could not see us at all.

In performance he lost concentration and stopped conducting at the 'What of the boy then?' passage. We followed the leader until he came back to us. A sweat on the back of the knees moment. The lapse was something our chief conductor Alexander Gibson was prone to, not an age induced problem with him though.

Mike
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 18, 2018, 04:10:31 PM
The five string  quartets  are marvellous. The fourth and fifth in particular are very late Beethovenish. The fifth is a kind of valedictory work with quotations from earlier works... fun to see how many you can identify.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Maestro267 on October 23, 2018, 03:20:20 AM
They need to reissue that recording or make a new one of The Mask of Time. I'm interested in it as I am interested in continuing the lineage of post-War Requiem British choral-orchestral works.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 18, 2019, 11:02:12 AM
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Few times I've seen this quartet cycle named amongst the greatest ones from the 20th Century and it really deserves that credit. 5 extraordinary, meaty, striking and dense pieces that reward the listener. It seemed that each quartet is better than the previous one. Each tells a lot and they're not necessarily hard listens, perhaps the most advanced 4th is, albeit I didn'f find it so as such. In some of them there are some quotes from Beethoven's quartets. I could only perceive quotes from the Grosse Fuge in the SQs 3 and 4. Very interesting. Recommended for fans of this form. The performances are incredible. The Lindsays do understand what Tippett meant, that was my perception.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: North Star on September 18, 2019, 11:24:02 AM
Yes, a great cycle. I have the Heath Quartet cycle, which I recall many reviews have said to be the best. I haven't heard other recordings, but I was certainly very impressed with the performances. It seems to be out of print at present, though.

[asin]B017752XLO[/asin]
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 18, 2019, 04:31:16 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 18, 2019, 11:24:02 AM
Yes, a great cycle. I have the Heath Quartet cycle, which I recall many reviews have said to be the best. I haven't heard other recordings, but I was certainly very impressed with the performances. It seems to be out of print at present, though.

[asin]B017752XLO[/asin]

Oh yes, I've read several positive reviews about their playing. It will be interesting to compare both recordings.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: foxandpeng on July 17, 2021, 11:07:22 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 25, 2012, 10:11:42 AM
LONG POST ALERT....

How to start with the Triple Concerto? It is one of my favourite Tippett works, one of his most lyrical pieces and almost certainly the most sonically sumptuous.

A basic outline is:

The Triple Concerto is a more-or-less standard three movement concerto, essentially fast-slow-fast. However, Tippett separates the movements with two Interludes, during which the soloists do not play. As the soloists aren't active in the Interludes, one could say thatat these points Tippett is not advancing the musical argument, but 'merely' setting the scene or changing the atmosphere. So the first Interlude, delicate and mysterious and wonderfully scored, prepares the way for the intense lyricism of the central slow movement, whilst the second Interlude renimates the music after this deliciously poetic vision, being scored for percussion and brass alone, and thus preparing for the Elgar-ish material which opens the last movement.

More detailed points would be:

FIRST MOVEMENT
The Concerto has an opening motive, a kind of 'birth motive' very similar to that found in the 4th symphony (in fact, the general texture, the orchestration and even the basic notes are more or less the same). This motive recurs, unchanged in essentials, at key moments.  It is followed by the entrance of the soloists, one by one, violin, viola, cello, each taking turns and mapping out their own specific material. This idea here is a little like that found in the Concerto for Orchestra and the 2nd Sonata, only less rigorously applied; that is, each instrument has musical types which it 'owns' and which recur juxtaposed in all manner of ways. The violin has those slashing chords and dazzling virtuosic leaps; the viola lyrical lines in double stops; the cello a mixture of the two moods, lyrical and impetuous, but none of the same music. From the cello we move back to the violin - the sweet, high, crescendo-ing octaves falling into gentle, spicato open fifth. And finally, after this expository, introductory material, we move to the fundamental, central music of this movement, what is essentially the first subject. Here, all three soloists play together for the first time (with the lightest of accompaniments in glockenspiel, vibraphone and a few other discrete touches in the winds). This is a magical moment in Tippett, IMO - the texture here is amazing, and it is found again, almost identically though somehow with less strikingly abundant lyricism, in the 4th quartet. The viola is at the bottom, with a warm, undulating idea in sixths (sounding in 2/4, though the time signature here is 3/4) (there's a kinship between this idea and the birth motive, too, in some ways). Above it the two other soloists spin a shining web of higher notes, the violin with a wide leaping melody in 6/8, the cello with a high line featuring prominent repeated notes. I make a big deal of describing this passage because it is so central to the piece, even though it never lasts for very long.

The mood so far has been mostly lyrical, sometime skittish, sometimes rich, impulsive, all in the shadow of that dark opening birth motive in which the horns feature prominently. After that point we have heard only the soloists, lightly accompanied by strings, winds and glints of percussion. Suddenly all this changes, with echoing brass fanfares, along with percussion slaps and snaps.. A glowing, dancing transition in winds, mallets, tuned gongs and bells leads into what one could call the second subject - another lyrical one. Here we see a principle which will be expanded in the slow movement - the varying presentations of a long lyrical theme, split in various ways through the soloist. Accompanied by rich harp figures, the theme itself features prominent, repeated falling ninths and twisting quintuplet, and it is always heard on two of the soloists, whilst the third dances  in 'light, delicate, accompanying' figures across the strings. Each combination of the soloists 'gets to' play the melody - first vioin and cello, then cello and viola, then viola and violin, and, briefly, finally violin and cello again. And at this point we reach one more wonderful idea, totally unexpected.

A hum starts up, created by an exquisitely orchestrated presentation of a single chord spelt, from top to bottom, E, D sharp, B, A, E. This chord is maintained in delicately pattering patterns of pizzicato strings (this is an idea which is important in this concerto). Above it, reinforcing it, we hear a bar of rich harp and mallets (bells, vibes, marimba and tuned gong again), and then a bar of 'brassy, nasal' horn, repeating an E in an insistent crescendo, supported by the timp. This page looks uncannily like the transcriptions one sees in ethonomusicology books of gamelans - uncanny except for the fact that it was indeed prompted by this sort of music example, in Cloin McPhee's book Music in Bali (IIRC). The four-note mode, the fast, interlocking, cross-rhythmed patterns, the resonant, glowing mallet sounds - all these are directly inspired by the gamelan, and they pave the way, here, for the much more sumptuous gamelan sounds of the slow movement. At this point, however, the are interrupted by 'strong, brilliant' dancing figures from the soloists (the first time they actually play entirely homophonically). The pattern recurs three times, until finally, the brass, who haven't feautred much apart from their earlier fanfares, break in once more, developing the soloists' dancing figure into a 'crisp, bright' dance of their own. A 'bell-like, brilliant' bar of link from winds and mallets (glock, bells, marimba, vibes) and suddenly, we are back at the opening birth-motive, in unchanged rhythm and orchestration, but one tone higher

What happens now is the development section. It is, fundamentally, about the superimposition of elements which had previously been heard separately (again, look at the Concerto for Orchestra for a much more rigorous application of this idea). So, after the birth motive, instead of the gradual introduction of the soloists, they burst in together, the cello playing the birth motive again, the other two playing versions of previously-heard figuration

I won't go into too much detail about the rest of the movement - you will hear all the ideas you've already heard again. But notice the formal logic with which things are presented. Soon after the passage I last described, the viola takes a solo, but this time accompanied; then we hear the initial brass fanfares again, with a string figure underpinning the this time. Then the cello takes a longer solo, accompanied again (and this time by its solo colleagues, too). This solo starts with the cello's initial material, but then (I love this moment) for ten bars 'singing, passionate' plays a never-before-heard and never-heard-again melody, accompanied by some amazing scoring in the winds. More previously heard material - the link to the second subject, and the second subject itself, and now something else completely new - an odd murmuring in the clarinet/bass clarinets accompanying a long solo in the violin (see how the formal pattering plays out?) which finishes in the same way as it did earlier in the concerto, in such a way as to lead into the first subjecto, presented in the same way by the soloists alone, and extended into a few stormy bars in which the timps join. This is followed, unaltered, (importantly - it doesn't change, it just acts as a kind of magical catalyst, I think) by the 'gamelan' episode from earlier, which as before is followed by the dancing brass fanfare and the link bar...which this time is echoed by an approximation of itself in the soloists; the link bar and its echo are heard again, higher, there is a pause but no double bar, and we are in...

INTERLUDE 1

Sorry to be so wordy about movement I. I wanted to give an idea of the way the layer, cutting and juxtapositions work in this piece. There is no real development of ideas at all; the development takes place in their combination. Interlude 1 is just as fascinating (well, I find it fascinating anyway!) but simpler. It is really one of Tippett's most delicate, tender, fragrant beautiful moments, a garden of exquisite sonorites. To remind you, the soloists do not play in this movement. Almost everything takes place over gentle lapping murmurings in strings, harp, mallet instruments, celesta etc. Take that as read. Over this sort of thing the following happens:

Alto flute solo
Horn duet
Bass oboe solo  (note the dry, quiet pizzicati in the background)

Again just a pause, no double bar, and we are in the middle movement

SECOND MOVEMENT

The second movement is like the fulfilment of the promise of the Interlude. Here, in addition to the rapt sonorities, we have the soloists, singing one of the most intense, lyrical melodies in modern music (actually, I can't think of a more intense, lyrical melody in modern music...). This melody is presented rather like the second subject of the first movement - the soloists always play in octave, although not always the octave you'd expect (the cello often takes the middle one, about 2 octaves above middle C). Underneath there is a gorgeous swell, rolling like a deep wave, soft timps and mallets to the fore, and above the deep hum of a tuned gong in A flat, a heavy, incense-laden connection with that gamelan music in the first movement, but now deeply, sleepily sensuous. Another little orientalism here, almost inaudible - whilst the soloists sing their song, the orchestral violas pluck a little glissando, which is marked 'sitar-like' in the score.

Anyway, this movement is effectively a rondo, with this music for all three soloists plus the deep, gong-laden swell as the A theme, and most episodes featuring the soloists, one by one. If I lay it out as a schema, and you compare it to the schema I gave for the interlude, you'll see a fascinating thing, which I've never read about in my books on Tippett.

A - soloists plus orchestra
B - cello solo, duetting prominently with bass oboe
A - the theme now in the wind, the solosits decorating in octaves
C - a build up of ostinati, fanfare like figures in the wind and trumpets over FIVE tuned gongs (in a whole tone wedge from A flat up to E - tht is, from the gong note used most prominently in this movement to that used most prominently in the first movement). The gongs are sustained by horns and trombones
D - violin solo, duetting prominently with alto flute
C
E - violin and viola duet, with prominent accompaniment from pattering, quiet pizzicati
A - the  theme back with the soloists, but garlanded with a celesta solo now
F - the music dies away with pizzicati patterings again....and then, finish...
G - viola solo, duetting (trio-ing?) prominently with horn duet, and instantly echoing itself quietly, 'distant', and with the horns muted

Note, then, how the prominent wind solos of the interlude find fulfilment in the main movement as they partner the soloists in their own music

Again, no double bar, just a pause, and then

INTERLUDE 2

An echo of the brass and percussion fanfares in the first movement, maybe. The music wakes from its slumber with crsip clicks and snaps in the percussion - wood blocks, claves, castanets, and a hi-hat playing something that is essentially a swing rhythm. The music remains percussion only, and almost pitchless (apart from the tight timp rolls on E) until trumpets and trombone enter with skirling calls. Again, in a link to the first movments fanfares, where the horns echoe the trumpets, here the trombone echo the trumpets. The musi dies on the timps. Again no double bar, and we enter

MOVEMENT 3
Here we start with another moment of dark lyricism, on a bed of the lowest strings and winds. The soloists enter one by one, first the cello, gradually rising, joined by the viola, and finally the violin. A cresecndo, and the movement proper begins:

This is a melody in the orchestral strings, marked 'singing: rich, golden.' It is quite grandiose, at least at first, and I've seen it refered to as resembling Elgar; I tend to think of it in those terms too, though more for its attitude than its actual sound. For a while solosits and orchestra exchange this melody, and then suddenly the music changes mood entirely.

The dry, pattering pizzicati are back, and over the top repeated insistent notes in wind and brass crescendo in seemingly unrelated tempo. This is in fact very similar to the gamelan music from movement 1, whose every other bar also featured a repeated note crescendoing in this same sort of rhythm, over single-harmony patterings in mallets and pizzicati strings. I find this section quite overwhelming, as the repeated notes grow more and more insistent, enticing the soloists to join in, which they do, with an angular, agile, joyful dance music over the top of everything. The music tumbles, unexpectedly, into...

The birth motive from movement 1. This is presented exactly as at the opening, and back at its originl pitch, a true recapitulation, but it continues in the soloists as it did on its second appearance in the opening movement, almosr unaltered (though at the lower pitch implied by the transposition of the birth motive. At the point at which this music broke off in the first movement, Tippett links to the music for the soloists from later in that movement, the music which leads up to the reappearance of the first subject and beyond. All of this is reheard, right up to what I called the 'stormy bars' where the timps join...and even beyond, because just as in the first movement here the gamelan music returns, exactly as it always is, at the same pitch. The 'stormy' music is exchanged with it once (the last we hear of the soloists) but it returns, quickly fragments, and, with a thwack on E, the concerto is over.

That last movement is odd, with its never-again-heard introduction, its never-again-heard 'Elgar' melody, its never-again-heard accumulation of repeated note ostinati, and then its sudden, condensed recap of the most salient music of the first movement. Possibly, it is one of those flawed parts of Tippett's oeuvre we were discussing. Certainly Meirion Bowen, Tippett's biggest and most committed advocate, thinks so. After the premiere Tippett rewrote quite a chunk of this movement because it just 'didn't register,' and maybe it still remains unbalanced. But personally I love this waywardness, I find it a compulsive, fascinating listen

Anyway, hope this gives some idea of the processes Tippett is working with in this most beautiful of pieces, and that it doesn't get in the way of enjoyment!

Listening to the Triple Concerto today in the warm sunshine.

This post is ridiculously helpful for someone like me. Coming to Tippett for the first time looks as though it may be a fascinating journey, and analyses like these make it easier, more enjoyable, informative and instructive. I almost bought a second hand copy of an analysis of his symphonies this week in London, but there were so many sections of printed score that it put me off. Not reading music puts me at such a disadvantage, and actually makes me realise yet again how little I am grasping of what might be enjoyed in orchestral music, but this sort of step by step guide is outstanding. Not having to wonder exactly which instruments are doing what, and why, is great.

What started as a 9am wake up with Symphony #2, while my wife picked up her brushes, has turned into a lovely day of discovery.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 17, 2021, 02:34:21 PM
That's for posting that analysis. I've always loved the Triple Concerto. And the fact that it has a Bass Oboe part doubly endears it to me. Let's hear it for rarely used but beautifully sounding woodwinds: Piccolo Oboe, Bass Oboe, Eflat Clarinet, Alto Flute, Contrabassoon &c
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on July 17, 2021, 07:02:37 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 17, 2021, 11:07:22 AM
Listening to the Triple Concerto today in the warm sunshine.

This post is ridiculously helpful for someone like me. Coming to Tippett for the first time looks as though it may be a fascinating journey, and analyses like these make it easier, more enjoyable, informative and instructive. I almost bought a second hand copy of an analysis of his symphonies this week in London, but there were so many sections of printed score that it put me off. Not reading music puts me at such a disadvantage, and actually makes me realise yet again how little I am grasping of what might be enjoyed in orchestral music, but this sort of step by step guide is outstanding. Not having to wonder exactly which instruments are doing what, and why, is great.

What started as a 9am wake up with Symphony #2, while my wife picked up her brushes, has turned into a lovely day of discovery.

And this is one of the things I miss about our fellow departed member, Luke. Not only was he incredibly knowledgeable about many composers but the amount of passion he poured into his explanations and, in this particular case, analysis was nothing short of amazing. It also helps that he is a composer himself, so, like Karl, he offers a completely different perspective than someone like myself who can read a little bit, but nothing like Luke or Karl. FWIW, Tippett is a tough composer, but I find him completely worthwhile.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 17, 2021, 10:45:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 17, 2021, 07:02:37 PM
And this is one of the things I miss about our fellow departed member, Luke. Not only was he incredibly knowledgeable about many composers but the amount of passion he poured into his explanations and, in this particular case, analysis was nothing short of amazing. It also helps that he is a composer himself, so, like Karl, he offers a completely different perspective than someone like myself who can read a little bit, but nothing like Luke or Karl. FWIW, Tippett is a tough composer, but I find him completely worthwhile.

I make no bones of the fact I struggle with Tippett but an analysis/explanation of a score like that filled with insight and enthusiasm is so helpful and infectious.  I have the Hickox recording of the Triple Concerto but not even a fleeting memory of the work or recording.  But Luke's writing prompts me to revisit is asap.  The other thing it reminds me of yet again is just how skilled a good composer is.  Quite literally every single note and marking has been considered and crafted.  Nothing is accidental.  Even when you as a listener might not respond to a work, you have to respect the care in its creation.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: foxandpeng on July 18, 2021, 05:09:51 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 17, 2021, 02:34:21 PM
That's for posting that analysis. I've always loved the Triple Concerto. And the fact that it has a Bass Oboe part doubly endears it to me. Let's hear it for rarely used but beautifully sounding woodwinds: Piccolo Oboe, Bass Oboe, Eflat Clarinet, Alto Flute, Contrabassoon &c

:) :) :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 17, 2021, 07:02:37 PM
And this is one of the things I miss about our fellow departed member, Luke. Not only was he incredibly knowledgeable about many composers but the amount of passion he poured into his explanations and, in this particular case, analysis was nothing short of amazing. It also helps that he is a composer himself, so, like Karl, he offers a completely different perspective than someone like myself who can read a little bit, but nothing like Luke or Karl. FWIW, Tippett is a tough composer, but I find him completely worthwhile.

Passion and insight are always winners. Both have led me to listen to new music because of comments here in recent years. I am reading through the Tippett thread to give me some starting points, but working on the more obviously accessible pieces first while I progress my grasp of the more challenging DSCH SQs. Seeing previous thread commentors being turned on to Tippett by the passion and guidance of others, makes me smile  :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2021, 05:53:07 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 17, 2021, 10:45:10 PM
I make no bones of the fact I struggle with Tippett but an analysis/explanation of a score like that filled with insight and enthusiasm is so helpful and infectious.  I have the Hickox recording of the Triple Concerto but not even a fleeting memory of the work or recording.  But Luke's writing prompts me to revisit is asap.  The other thing it reminds me of yet again is just how skilled a good composer is.  Quite literally every single note and marking has been considered and crafted.  Nothing is accidental.  Even when you as a listener might not respond to a work, you have to respect the care in its creation.

Yes, indeed. Tippett knew what he was doing whether one likes the music or not is a completely different matter. I think the works I struggle with the most are the operas with the exception of The Midsummer Marriage, but this one is an early work and composed in that lyrical style he had developed. It seems all of Tippett's most popular works date from the earlier part of his career: Double Concerto, A Child of Our Time et. al.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2021, 05:54:29 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 18, 2021, 05:09:51 AMPassion and insight are always winners. Both have led me to listen to new music because of comments here in recent years. I am reading through the Tippett thread to give me some starting points, but working on the more obviously accessible pieces first while I progress my grasp of the more challenging DSCH SQs. Seeing previous thread commentors being turned on to Tippett by the passion and guidance of others, makes me smile  :)

This is great to read and if someone can help give you a nudge to check out a work you, otherwise, wouldn't have, that's always a good thing.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Iota on July 18, 2021, 10:53:56 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on July 17, 2021, 11:07:22 AM
Listening to the Triple Concerto today in the warm sunshine.

This post is ridiculously helpful for someone like me. Coming to Tippett for the first time looks as though it may be a fascinating journey, and analyses like these make it easier, more enjoyable, informative and instructive.

I for one will be interested to read any thoughts/impressions that crop upon your journey. Plenty of Tippett love here, he and Britten are my two favourite British composers.

Nothing interesting to add, but will just say that I think he has one of the most sumptuous orchestral sound worlds of any composer when he's in the mood, beautiful passages litter his symphonies/orchestral pieces/concertos/operas etc, and that he exudes infectious joy as well as austere/introverted complexities in a highly distinctive, personal style, that often speaks very directly to me.
I feel instinctively drawn to him, his sincerity is on a par with composers like Schumann for me .. I absolutely trust him to say what he means, however complex/mystifying/unwieldy it gets. That's perhaps a weird thing to say, but nonetheless it's a real and attractive quality about his music for me. Still getting to know him!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Symphonic Addict on July 18, 2021, 06:47:19 PM
Quote from: Iota on July 18, 2021, 10:53:56 AM
I for one will be interested to read any thoughts/impressions that crop upon your journey. Plenty of Tippett love here, he and Britten are my two favourite British composers.

Nothing interesting to add, but will just say that I think he has one of the most sumptuous orchestral sound worlds of any composer when he's in the mood, beautiful passages litter his symphonies/orchestral pieces/concertos/operas etc, and that he exudes infectious joy as well as austere/introverted complexities in a highly distinctive, personal style, that often speaks very directly to me.
I feel instinctively drawn to him, his sincerity is on a par with composers like Schumann for me .. I absolutely trust him to say what he means, however complex/mystifying/unwieldy it gets. That's perhaps a weird thing to say, but nonetheless it's a real and attractive quality about his music for me. Still getting to know him!

Very well put.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Symphonic Addict on July 18, 2021, 06:49:05 PM
Another work I find quite engrossing by him is the Concerto for Orchestra. The way he uses the instruments in each movement leaves me impressed. He was a real magician at handling the timbres and sonorities of an orchestra.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 19, 2021, 12:09:16 AM
Quote from: Iota on July 18, 2021, 10:53:56 AM
I for one will be interested to read any thoughts/impressions that crop upon your journey. Plenty of Tippett love here, he and Britten are my two favourite British composers.

Nothing interesting to add, but will just say that I think he has one of the most sumptuous orchestral sound worlds of any composer when he's in the mood, beautiful passages litter his symphonies/orchestral pieces/concertos/operas etc, and that he exudes infectious joy as well as austere/introverted complexities in a highly distinctive, personal style, that often speaks very directly to me.
I feel instinctively drawn to him, his sincerity is on a par with composers like Schumann for me .. I absolutely trust him to say what he means, however complex/mystifying/unwieldy it gets. That's perhaps a weird thing to say, but nonetheless it's a real and attractive quality about his music for me. Still getting to know him!

"I absolutely trust him to say what he means, however complex/mystifying/unwieldy it gets" - can I say I think that's really well put! 

I think that is probably how most people feel about any composer that they feel a particular affinity for.  With me it would probably be Bax.  Absolutely its not a blind love, I don't think everything he wrote is bathed in genius but I do trust him.  So if on a first acquaintance a piece eludes me I'll give it another go, and another....  I feel the same about certain performers as well.  For no great scientific or objective reason, I am willing to believe in what some performers do even when it might seem eccentric..
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: foxandpeng on July 19, 2021, 05:40:15 AM
Quote from: Iota on July 18, 2021, 10:53:56 AM
I for one will be interested to read any thoughts/impressions that crop upon your journey. Plenty of Tippett love here, he and Britten are my two favourite British composers.

Nothing interesting to add, but will just say that I think he has one of the most sumptuous orchestral sound worlds of any composer when he's in the mood, beautiful passages litter his symphonies/orchestral pieces/concertos/operas etc, and that he exudes infectious joy as well as austere/introverted complexities in a highly distinctive, personal style, that often speaks very directly to me.
I feel instinctively drawn to him, his sincerity is on a par with composers like Schumann for me .. I absolutely trust him to say what he means, however complex/mystifying/unwieldy it gets. That's perhaps a weird thing to say, but nonetheless it's a real and attractive quality about his music for me. Still getting to know him!

I've heard the Triple Concerto twice today in the Hickox version, and am finding it fascinating. I would never describe it as catchy in a traditional sense, but I am finding it compelling listening. Distinctive is an understatement, straight from the gate! I suspect that getting to know this piece of music well, will be really rewarding.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 19, 2021, 12:09:16 AM
"I absolutely trust him to say what he means, however complex/mystifying/unwieldy it gets" - can I say I think that's really well put! 

I think that is probably how most people feel about any composer that they feel a particular affinity for.  With me it would probably be Bax.  Absolutely its not a blind love, I don't think everything he wrote is bathed in genius but I do trust him.  So if on a first acquaintance a piece eludes me I'll give it another go, and another....  I feel the same about certain performers as well.  For no great scientific or objective reason, I am willing to believe in what some performers do even when it might seem eccentric..

You have an ally in approaching Bax in this way. Revisiting certain pieces that don't immediately resonate for me has been one of the greatest discoveries of recent years - initially dense and I confess, difficult at first, but memorable and powerful once grasped. I trust him to keep on giving once familiarity sets in.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: krummholz on July 19, 2021, 08:20:21 AM
Back in the day, around the time I was a music student at Michigan, I was quite taken with Tippett's music. I was fascinated by this composer whose style had shifted so drastically over the years. Composition class during the summer, I think of 1976, was a seminar led by Bolcom. One of our assignments was to pick a composer that interested us and present some of his work. Naturally, I picked Tippett. I don't recall all of the works of his that I chose - I'm pretty sure that among them were the Piano Concerto and the 2nd String Quartet, and I think the 2nd Piano Sonata as well. At any rate, of all the works I presented, none made any impression either on Bolcom or my fellow students... until I came to the Knot Garden. Everyone sat enthralled through at least the first 20 minutes. At the time this was definitely NOT my favorite Tippett work, though the opinion of everyone in the room prompted me to listen to it again and again, and after a few hearings I appreciated it much better.

Today I don't even have a recording of any of Tippett's operas, my Tippett collection is pretty thin and consists of the Piano Concerto and all 5 SQs. I had come to the conclusion that he was just not that interesting a composer despite all the shifting styles. Yesterday I re-listened to the 4th SQ and found it fascinating and very effective, and now I think I will have to re-explore his oeuvre. Indeed, I don't think I've ever heard anything else from after 1976 (other than SQs 4 and 5) and am impressed that he continued to compose for many years, until failing eyesight caught up with him.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Iota on July 20, 2021, 12:15:44 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 19, 2021, 12:09:16 AM
"I absolutely trust him to say what he means, however complex/mystifying/unwieldy it gets" - can I say I think that's really well put! 

I think that is probably how most people feel about any composer that they feel a particular affinity for.  With me it would probably be Bax.  Absolutely its not a blind love, I don't think everything he wrote is bathed in genius but I do trust him.  So if on a first acquaintance a piece eludes me I'll give it another go, and another....  I feel the same about certain performers as well.  For no great scientific or objective reason, I am willing to believe in what some performers do even when it might seem eccentric..

To the bolded, yes, I feel it about performers too. A small point, but a subtle general distinction for me might be that it's less about trusting them to say what they mean, and more that whatever they do it's going to be of interest to me, that it'll show me something worth hearing in the music. A distinction that has only just occurred to me, but I think it's generally true (for me).


Quote from: krummholz on July 19, 2021, 08:20:21 AM
Back in the day, around the time I was a music student at Michigan, I was quite taken with Tippett's music. I was fascinated by this composer whose style had shifted so drastically over the years. Composition class during the summer, I think of 1976, was a seminar led by Bolcom. One of our assignments was to pick a composer that interested us and present some of his work. Naturally, I picked Tippett. I don't recall all of the works of his that I chose - I'm pretty sure that among them were the Piano Concerto and the 2nd String Quartet, and I think the 2nd Piano Sonata as well. At any rate, of all the works I presented, none made any impression either on Bolcom or my fellow students... until I came to the Knot Garden. Everyone sat enthralled through at least the first 20 minutes. At the time this was definitely NOT my favorite Tippett work, though the opinion of everyone in the room prompted me to listen to it again and again, and after a few hearings I appreciated it much better.

I think the Knot Garden was the second work I got to know by Tippett, when I was still at school, and I liked it instinctively, without being perhaps sure why. Though like you I haven't listened to it for ages, I only had it on LP and my turntable broke down years ago and isn't being replaced. I don't listen to opera much now these days really, if I do it's live. Unlike you I never lost interest in him as a composer. Glad you've apparently experienced the possible beginnings of a renaissance.  :)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: foxandpeng on July 27, 2021, 03:30:03 PM
Hearing the Triple Concerto again this evening, just reminds me how much I like this piece of music, and the way that repeated listens have opened up so many nuances The third movement in particular has something quite captivating.

Having now heard the Decca version and the Chandos back to back on a few occasions, I prefer the latter, I think.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lordlance on March 28, 2023, 08:45:58 PM
Felt like sharing this for those who are interested in a video performance of The Rose Lake:

https://vk.com/video/playlist/737728344_27?section=playlist_27&z=video737728344_456239947%2Fpl_737728344_27
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on March 29, 2023, 12:16:27 AM
Thanks for ressurecting this thread, in which I took such pleasure over a decade ago. I've just re-read the whole thing. Made me quite nostalgic.

My passion for Tippett remains undimmed, btw. For my book I visited 5 locations for him, which is more than I realised until now...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2023, 09:30:29 PM
Got a query here about instrumentation in the Symphony No.4. I was listening to the Solti version on Youtube (which may have been the premiere) and I was surprised to hear a bass oboe solo in it. Now the Hickox version I have on disc I'm sure has a bassoon at this point, and researching the instrumentation of the symphony I find every reference agreeing that the work is scored for bassoon with no bass oboe.

Tippett used a bass oboe in the Triple Concerto and I'm thinking that maybe the original was scored for bass oboe and this was played in the premiere but the publishers baulked at the scoring on publication?

Thoughts.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: relm1 on August 24, 2023, 05:38:40 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2023, 09:30:29 PMGot a query here about instrumentation in the Symphony No.4. I was listening to the Solti version on Youtube (which may have been the premiere) and I was surprised to hear a bass oboe solo in it. Now the Hickox version I have on disc I'm sure has a bassoon at this point, and researching the instrumentation of the symphony I find every reference agreeing that the work is scored for bassoon with no bass oboe.

Tippett used a bass oboe in the Triple Concerto and I'm thinking that maybe the original was scored for bass oboe and this was played in the premiere but the publishers baulked at the scoring on publication?

Thoughts.

The score (https://www.schott-music.com/en/preview/viewer/index/?idx=MTU2MzYx&idy=156361&dl=0) doesn't indicate a bass oboe.  Can you provide a link with timing to the excerpt where you hear it?
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: pjme on August 24, 2023, 06:23:26 AM
Found this purely by chance ( searching for Heckelphone...). Maybe it helps.
I love Tippetts symphonies though - the energy of the 2nd and the humanity of the maligned third....

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 25, 2023, 07:55:33 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 24, 2023, 05:38:40 AMThe score (https://www.schott-music.com/en/preview/viewer/index/?idx=MTU2MzYx&idy=156361&dl=0) doesn't indicate a bass oboe.  Can you provide a link with timing to the excerpt where you hear it?

It's at 14:00 here:


However the Hickox version on CD sounds the same at this point (6:50 in track 4) so I think that what it is is an ordinary oboe playing at the very bottom of its range.

Bass Oboe hunger is a terrible thing!
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on October 20, 2023, 02:49:11 PM
Cross-post

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Scion7 on October 28, 2023, 07:08:18 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2007, 03:40:25 AMOne of my work colleagues, as a boy, did gardening for Tippet. One day Tippet found him asleep in a wheelbarrow. ;D

And did Tippet give him a sound thrashing for taking a lie-down on the job?!?!?  >:D
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2023, 02:46:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 23, 2007, 03:40:25 AMOne of my work colleagues, as a boy, did gardening for Tippet. One day Tippet found him asleep in a wheelbarrow. ;D
:o Asleep on the job...and in a wheelbarrow!  Sounds like he was really young (to be able to fit into a wheelbarrow) and perhaps hard-pressed for money and struggling to balance school work with maybe needed income?  Just some thoughts.  Do you know more?

PD
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: vandermolen on October 29, 2023, 01:52:43 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2023, 02:46:17 PM:o Asleep on the job...and in a wheelbarrow!  Sounds like he was really young (to be able to fit into a wheelbarrow) and perhaps hard-pressed for money and struggling to balance school work with maybe needed income?  Just some thoughts.  Do you know more?

PD
Come to think of it my friend was gardening for Tippett's mother (Mrs Kemp I think) who lived locally. My friend was probably a teenager (I'll ask him when I next see him). I think that Mrs Kemp told my friend that he could have a rest whenever he wanted to. It was unfortunate that one of his 'wheelbarrow naps' coincided with a visit from Tippett to see his mother.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Irons on October 30, 2023, 09:13:32 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 28, 2023, 02:46:17 PM:o Asleep on the job...and in a wheelbarrow!  Sounds like he was really young (to be able to fit into a wheelbarrow) and perhaps hard-pressed for money and struggling to balance school work with maybe needed income?  Just some thoughts.  Do you know more?

PD

This little chap wide awake in my wheelbarrow! No trouble fitting him in either.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 30, 2023, 10:00:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2023, 01:52:43 AMCome to think of it my friend was gardening for Tippett's mother (Mrs Kemp I think) who lived locally. My friend was probably a teenager (I'll ask him when I next see him). I think that Mrs Kemp told my friend that he could have a rest whenever he wanted to. It was unfortunate that one of his 'wheelbarrow naps' coincided with a visit from Tippett to see his mother.
;D

PD
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 30, 2023, 10:03:00 AM
Quote from: Irons on October 30, 2023, 09:13:32 AMThis little chap wide awake in my wheelbarrow! No trouble fitting him in either.
Cute!  :) Is he one of your children's pets?

PD
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Karl Henning on October 30, 2023, 10:35:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2023, 01:52:43 AMCome to think of it my friend was gardening for Tippett's mother (Mrs Kemp I think) who lived locally. My friend was probably a teenager (I'll ask him when I next see him). I think that Mrs Kemp told my friend that he could have a rest whenever he wanted to. It was unfortunate that one of his 'wheelbarrow naps' coincided with a visit from Tippett to see his mother.
It was another lesson to the composer that timing is everything. 
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 30, 2023, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on October 30, 2023, 10:35:47 AMIt was another lesson to the composer that timing is everything.
lol  :)

PD
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on October 30, 2023, 11:18:11 AM
This wheelbarrow story interests me, because I remember, when I was growing up, a family friend who, working at Dartington one year, had found Harrison Birtwistle slumbering in a wheelbarrow in exactly the same way.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 30, 2023, 11:31:56 AM
Quote from: Luke on October 30, 2023, 11:18:11 AMThis wheelbarrow story interests me, because I remember, when I was growing up, a family friend who, working at Dartington one year, had found Harrison Birtwistle slumbering in a wheelbarrow in exactly the same way.
lol!  Thinking about wheelbarrows a bit more, I realized that some can be quite big (mine isn't).  Is it still a wheelbarrow--or maybe a cart--if it's flat, fairly big (thinking of ones with wooden bottoms)?

PD
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on October 30, 2023, 11:34:04 AM
The Philosopher's Wheelbarrow



(Karl, I have a title for you...)
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lordlance on February 06, 2024, 12:26:41 AM
Heard Tippett 1 for the first time:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715IyZpj2mL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Unlike some other Tippett I heard this was not inaccessible/anxiety-inducing. Kind of nice actually.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: foxandpeng on February 06, 2024, 06:26:27 AM
Quote from: lordlance on February 06, 2024, 12:26:41 AMHeard Tippett 1 for the first time:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715IyZpj2mL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Unlike some other Tippett I heard this was not inaccessible/anxiety-inducing. Kind of nice actually.

Tippett rewards repeat listening, in my experience. Not with cash or anything, but you can't have everything.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Irons on February 06, 2024, 07:26:54 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on February 06, 2024, 06:26:27 AMTippett rewards repeat listening, in my experience. Not with cash or anything, but you can't have everything.

Listening to his first three quartets recently my feeling is this is serious music by a serious composer. Wish he would lighten up now and again.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: DaveF on February 06, 2024, 09:31:58 AM
Quote from: lordlance on February 06, 2024, 12:26:41 AMHeard Tippett 1 for the first time.

Unlike some other Tippett I heard this was not inaccessible/anxiety-inducing. Kind of nice actually.

Much the best of the 3 recordings of this symphony, to my ears.  I found the "Shostakovich" passacaglia (whisper it: better than DSCH) 2nd movement absolutely shattering.

The companion disc (actually 2 discs) of nos. 3 & 4 plus the early Symphony in B flat is fascinating for this early piece - Tippett in his hitherto undocumented Sibelius period.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: foxandpeng on February 06, 2024, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Irons on February 06, 2024, 07:26:54 AMListening to his first three quartets recently my feeling is this is serious music by a serious composer. Wish he would lighten up now and again.

I can see why you would say that. A 10k run can be amazing, but sometimes stopping to take a breath stops you getting a stitch.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Luke on February 06, 2024, 10:25:19 AM
There's plenty of 'lighter' Tippett, though, from the 1st Piano Sonata (particularly the last movement) and the delicious Sonata for Four Horns, to Crown of the Year, the Concerto for Double String Orchestra and the Suite for the Birthday of Prince Charles.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: foxandpeng on February 06, 2024, 10:51:37 AM
Quote from: Luke on February 06, 2024, 10:25:19 AMthe Concerto for Double String Orchestra 

What a great piece of music. Also, the Triple Concerto for Violin, Viola, Cello. The Rose Lake.
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: Albion on February 06, 2024, 12:49:01 PM
Most of the Tippett that I actually enjoy comes from quite early in his career: the Concerto for Double String Orchestra, "Suite for the Birthday of Prince Charles", Symphony No.1, the Piano Concerto and "The Midsummer Marriage". I don't much care for "A Child of Our Time" which seems to me worthy but largely unmemorable apart from the spirituals. As to many of his later works, having endured live performances of "The Vision of St Augustine" and "King Priam", no thanks...
Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: lordlance on February 06, 2024, 12:56:38 PM
Not sure why Tippett's seriousness is being remarked on. I think the dissonance or harshness is part-and-parcel of most modern composers... Rihm, Julian Anderson, Sallinen....

Title: Re: Tippett's Tearoom
Post by: foxandpeng on February 07, 2024, 01:23:36 AM
Quote from: lordlance on February 06, 2024, 12:56:38 PMNot sure why Tippett's seriousness is being remarked on. I think the dissonance or harshness is part-and-parcel of most modern composers... Rihm, Julian Anderson, Sallinen....



Merely in the same vein that we do with other composers, I guess; a reflection on how his music feels. I am a big fan of Tippett, as with PMD and Robert Simpson, but it is worth noting that their beauty and worth is unlike that of Vasks or Silvestrov. My stamina for Penderecki is different to my back to back patience with Thomas de Hartmann. Both are wonderful, but not equal in their emotional or technical challenges 🙂