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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 03, 2010, 03:56:09 AM

Poll
Question: Who is your favorite Czech composer?
Option 1: Dvořák votes: 16
Option 2: Janáček votes: 18
Option 3: Martinů votes: 5
Option 4: Smetana votes: 1
Option 5: Zelenka votes: 0
Option 6: Suk votes: 0
Option 7: Reicha votes: 1
Option 8: Other votes: 1
Title: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 03, 2010, 03:56:09 AM
Kdo je váš oblibený český skladatel?

Time for another dumb poll pitting composers against each other. Supraphon's website just had a similar poll, so I thought it would be fun to do the same thing here, for fans of this small country's amazing musical legacy.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: springrite on November 03, 2010, 04:03:09 AM
Janacek followed by Martinu and Suk for me.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 04:04:51 AM
Quote from: Velimir on November 03, 2010, 03:56:09 AM
Kdo je váš oblibený český skladatel?

Time for another dumb poll pitting composers against each other. Supraphon's website just had a similar poll, so I thought it would be fun to do the same thing here, for fans of this small country's amazing musical legacy.
I don't think I could live without Dvorak. He has pretty much every genre covered well. Some of the others on the list are quite good and deserve more publicity, but Dvorak is just so strong.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 03, 2010, 04:27:30 AM
FYI, the Supraphon poll (you can go vote at www.supraphon.com) is currently showing Dvorak out in front; Martinu slightly behind him in 2nd place; Janacek slightly behind Martinu; and Smetana trailing way behind the other guys in 4th place. (they didn't include anyone else)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 05:23:48 AM
I can't vote on the Supraphon, and I've tried three different browsers.  Dvorak must win! ;D

I liked how they said which do you listen to the most often?  Not who is greatest, favorite etc etc  So I'll interpret this poll the same way:

Dvorak = Martinu > (Janacek = Smetana) in terms of my listening habits. :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2010, 05:33:46 AM
Much as I love Janacek and his Glagolitic Mass, Dvorak is my musical soulmate and always has been. Dvorak's quintets opp. 77 and 81, and Symphony No 8, are about as close as you can get to my worldview and personality expressed in musical notation. :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 05:37:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 03, 2010, 05:33:46 AM
Much as I love Janacek and his Glagolitic Mass, Dvorak is my musical soulmate and always has been. Dvorak's quintets opp. 77 and 81, and Symphony No 8, are about as close as you can get to my worldview and personality expressed in musical notation. :)

I always thought you were a rhapsody in blue kind of personality! :D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 03, 2010, 05:38:52 AM
Do I even need to say....?
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 05:40:54 AM
I only have one Janacek cd so maybe I should make this a Janacek and Ravel day. :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 05:41:35 AM
Martinu, second place would go to Janacek.  None of the others appear in my CD player with any regularity.

Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: bhodges on November 03, 2010, 05:43:50 AM
Janáček for me, with Dvořák and Martinů not far behind.  Works by all three are among my all-time favorites; I only chose Janáček because my list of faves by him is slightly longer.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 03, 2010, 05:54:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 05:40:54 AM
I only have one Janacek cd so maybe I should make this a Janacek and Ravel day. :)

David, David, David.... tut, tut, tut! Please let it be the string quartets that you have - how anyone can live without them is beyond me  0:)

But a Janacek and Ravel day sounds like heaven - when I get a free spell to do some listening I might follow suit.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2010, 05:56:37 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 03, 2010, 05:54:53 AM
But a Janacek and Ravel day sounds like heaven

Mm, mm, good!
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 05:57:59 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 03, 2010, 05:54:53 AM
David, David, David.... tut, tut, tut! Please let it be the string quartets that you have - how anyone can live without them is beyond me  0:)

But a Janacek and Ravel day sounds like heaven - when I get a free spell to do some listening I might follow suit.

Hmmm, better add Janacek, Ravel didn't write enough music to last a whole day, did he? Two hours of piano music, two hours of chamber music, three hours of orchestral music (cheating, most of it transcriptions of piano music).  But there are some songs, that might tide you over until lunch.   ;D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 05:58:40 AM
Yes Luke it is the string quartets that I have, specifically this recording:

(http://static.letsbuyit.com/filer/images/uk/products/original/220/50/janacek-string-quartets-1-2-22050900.jpeg)
:)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2010, 05:59:32 AM
Yes, Davey! The "shrimps"! : )
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 06:01:04 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 05:57:59 AM
Hmmm, better add Janacek, Ravel didn't write enough music to last a whole day, did he? Two hours of piano music, two hours of chamber music, three hours of orchestral music (cheating, most of it transcriptions of piano music).  But there are some songs, that might tide you over until lunch.   ;D

Which would you rather listen to?  One day of the complete works of Ravel and Webern or one month of the complete works of Telemann?  Quality > Quantity. :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 03, 2010, 06:03:19 AM
Phew!  ;)  ;D And that's a great recording of them, too, more fully alive to the folk music aspect of the scores than most. The members of the quartet are accomplished players of Czech folk music too - and there's a simply lovely disc of them in a string quartet arrangement of J's piano accompaniments to Moravian folksongs, sung here by Iva Bittova - it's perfectly poised between the various stools between which it complicatedly falls....the quartet even sing along with Bittova at points; a winner, that disc is. I ramble...

If you ever get the chance to hear the Smetana Quartet in these two quartets, grab it (my own personal choice, it goes without saying)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2010, 06:04:05 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 05:57:59 AMRavel didn't write enough music to last a whole day, did he? Two hours of piano music, two hours of chamber music, three hours of orchestral music (cheating, most of it transcriptions of piano music).  But there are some songs, that might tide you over until lunch.   ;D

The purely orchestral works/ballets probably take up 3 CDs, plus the two operas, piano concertos - about 320 minutes there, plus the piano and chamber music, that's 9 hours sans songs and obscurities. :) Which is why it's so baffling that I'm having to wait so long for a Brilliant Classics Complete Ravel Edition.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2010, 06:09:53 AM
Quote from: Scarpia... three hours of orchestral music (cheating, most of it transcriptions of piano music.

Scarps, that's not cheating; the orchestrations are value added, without nullifying the piano originals.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 06:15:16 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 06:01:04 AM
Which would you rather listen to?  One day of the complete works of Ravel and Webern or one month of the complete works of Telemann?  Quality > Quantity. :)
I agree  - which is why Telemann would win handily in such a poll - quality and quantity!!  >:D...runs for cover.... This might be a fun poll one day.

Looking at my collection, I already have more Telemann than Ravel, Webern, Janacek, and Berg combined! So I guess you know how I would vote...
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 06:21:37 AM
Well okay Telemann wrote a few good pieces, but he is no Webern!  The casual poster is wondering why I'm comparing Telemann and Webern... ;D  Yeah didn't you know about Telemann's experimental 12 tone row stage... :D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2010, 06:22:00 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 06:15:16 AM
I agree  - which is why Telemann would win handily in such a poll - quality and quantity!!  >:D...runs for cover.... This might be a fun poll one day.

Looking at my collection, I already have more Telemann than Ravel, Webern, Janacek, and Berg combined! So I guess you know how I would vote...

I have 0 works by Telemann, 0 works by Berg, 3 works by Webern, and about 25 works by Ravel.  ;D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 06:23:19 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 06:21:37 AM
Well okay Telemann wrote a few good pieces, but he is no Webern!
See - common ground. Telemann was most definitely no Webern!!  :P
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 06:24:28 AM
Are you telling me Brian that you don't have Berg's famous Violin Concerto?  You know one of the greatest works of the 20th century?  The fusion of modernism, romanticism and baroque?  Yeah seriously how many works feature romantic bent lyricism, modern aesthetics and Bach quotations in equal measure? :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2010, 06:42:58 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 06:24:28 AM
Are you telling me Brian that you don't have Berg's famous Violin Concerto?  You know one of the greatest works of the 20th century?

Nope. I've heard it live twice and filed it in the "try again in ten years" cabinet. I've seen a film version of Wozzeck, though, and that was pretty freaking intense (in a good way).
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 07:35:34 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 06:01:04 AM
Which would you rather listen to?  One day of the complete works of Ravel and Webern or one month of the complete works of Telemann?  Quality > Quantity. :)

Telemann.  Quality and Quantity.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 07:40:45 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 07:35:34 AM
Telemann.  Quality and Quantity.

What you like Telemann? ???  But you hate Vivaldi, despite the fact that they both write in the same proto-galant style but Vivaldi is more consistently inspired? ???
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 08:36:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 03, 2010, 06:09:53 AM
Scarps, that's not cheating; the orchestrations are value added, without nullifying the piano originals.

I can't think of one that wasn't much better in it's original form on piano.  Tombeau de Couperin and the Pavane, in particular, are so much better in their original versions.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 08:39:03 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 07:40:45 AM
What you like Telemann? ???  But you hate Vivaldi, despite the fact that they both write in the same proto-galant style but Vivaldi is more consistently inspired? ???

I see no similarity between Vivaldi and Telemann.  Telemann's music has skillfully written imitative counterpoint.  I have never heard anything by Vivaldi that struck me as "inspired" in any way.  (Just my impression, obviously.)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2010, 08:40:03 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 08:36:12 AM
I can't think of one that wasn't much better than its original form on piano.  Tombeau de Couperin and the Pavane, in particular, are so much better in their original versions.

How about Pictures at an Exhibition?  :)

At the risk of sounding hubristic, there are tweaks I'd make to the Ravel orchestration, but it is like a color film to Mussorgsky's black and white.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 08:44:29 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 03, 2010, 06:04:05 AM
The purely orchestral works/ballets probably take up 3 CDs, plus the two operas, piano concertos - about 320 minutes there, plus the piano and chamber music, that's 9 hours sans songs and obscurities. :) Which is why it's so baffling that I'm having to wait so long for a Brilliant Classics Complete Ravel Edition.

I entirely forgot about those Operas.  They seem so obscure I assumed they were unlistenable.  I'll have to admit I have never heard them.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2010, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 08:44:29 AM
I entirely forgot about those Operas.  They seem so obscure I assumed they were unlistenable.  I'll have to admit I have never heard them.

Click "Members" -> "L" -> "Luke" -> "Show recent posts" -> scroll down  ;)
EDIT: Or click here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17453.msg461868.html#msg461868)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brahmsian on November 03, 2010, 09:43:37 AM
I knew Janacek would garner some votes, but I fully expected Dvorak to run away with this one.   :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2010, 09:45:19 AM
I cannot really choose . . . but if I vote according to shelf space, then I'm "in the tank" with Martinů.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Philoctetes on November 03, 2010, 09:45:38 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 03, 2010, 09:43:37 AM
I knew Janacek would garner some votes, but I fully expected Dvorak to run away with this one.   :)

Is it based on forum topics and the number of posts contained therein?
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brahmsian on November 03, 2010, 09:46:53 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on November 03, 2010, 09:45:38 AM
Is it based on forum topics and the number of posts contained therein?

Nope, I just assumed in general that Dvorak was more loved than Janacek. 
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 03, 2010, 10:23:49 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 03, 2010, 09:45:19 AM
I cannot really choose . . . but if I vote according to shelf space, then I'm "in the tank" with Martinů.

Me too...he wins on "ear time" as well. The top 3 guys are monopolizing the vote! Maybe Gurn will show up and vote for Reicha.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 10:47:33 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 03, 2010, 09:46:53 AM
Nope, I just assumed in general that Dvorak was more loved than Janacek.

In my first five years of listening to Classical Music Dvorak was a favorite.  At this point, I'd say the ratio of Janacek:Dvorak and Martinu:Dvorak listening is 50:1 and 100:1, respectively.  Part of that is that Janacek and Martinu still contain regions of unknown music.  But Janacek:Brahms and Martinu:Brahms are probably 2:1 and 4:1, despite the fact that I am as familiar with Brahms as with any composer.  But in all honesty, I haven't really explored much of Dvorak's Chamber music.  Perhaps my interest will revive if I do a little exploring in that direction.  (I recently got a box set of Dvorak Chamber Music, I should put it in front of the queue.)



Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 10:54:47 AM
Reicha is getting gouged because not enough people know his music. Where's Fibich? And Benda and Vanhal... :-\   I voted for Dvorak cause I like his looks; good, solid, conservative looking sort of person.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: karlhenning on November 03, 2010, 10:55:12 AM
Still, I was delighted that Dana opened his program with a Dvořák string trio.  Made even "the world's worst viola sonata" seem like a natural flow . . . .
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 10:56:06 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 10:54:47 AM
Reicha is getting gouged because not enough people know his music. Where's Fibich? And Benda and Vanhal... :-\   I voted for Dvorak cause I like his looks; good, solid, conservative looking sort of person.... :)

8)

haha Dvorak looks like a pug! :D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brahmsian on November 03, 2010, 10:57:07 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 10:56:06 AM
haha Dvorak looks like a pug! :D

Ha!   :D  Maybe I should have named my pug Dvorak!  ;D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 11:20:02 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 03, 2010, 10:57:07 AM
Ha!   :D  Maybe I should have named my pug Dvorak!  ;D
Anyone who names their dog Dvorak gets my vote!
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 03, 2010, 11:23:19 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 10:47:33 AM
But in all honesty, I haven't really explored much of Dvorak's Chamber music.  Perhaps my interest will revive if I do a little exploring in that direction.

You're in for a treat. Dvorak is a great chamber music composer - just like his pal Brahms.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 10:54:47 AM
Reicha is getting gouged because not enough people know his music.

Like me, until last year. I didn't hear a note of the guy until 2009. Ignorance can be a formidable barrier to overcome.

QuoteWhere's Fibich? And Benda and Vanhal... :-\

And Cernohorsky, Vejvanovsky, Stamitz, Vorisek, Novak, Kabelac, Husa, Krommer, Foerster,...? They're all under "Other"!

QuoteI voted for Dvorak cause I like his looks; good, solid, conservative looking sort of person.... :)

My dear Gurn, you disappoint me...voting for a composer because of his looks?!?
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 03, 2010, 11:24:30 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 10:54:47 AM
Reicha is getting gouged because not enough people know his music.

I heard some of his work. Wasn't impressed. Zelenka on the other hand is amazing.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 03, 2010, 11:26:48 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 03, 2010, 11:24:30 AM
Zelenka on the other hand is amazing.

Zelenka is wonderful. Was listening to his Lamentations of Jeremiah recently. Such dark, affecting music. Not a surprise to discover that none other than JS Bach was a great admirer of Zelenka.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2010, 12:44:51 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 10:54:47 AM
Reicha is getting gouged because not enough people know his music. Where's Fibich? And Benda and Vanhal... :-\ 

Quote from: Velimir on November 03, 2010, 11:23:19 AM
And Cernohorsky, Vejvanovsky, Stamitz, Vorisek, Novak, Kabelac, Husa, Krommer, Foerster,...? They're all under "Other"!

You guys are killing me. No mention of Kalliwoda???

Another "other" composer for y'all's edification: Vycpalek. Ancerl recorded his "Cantata for the Last Things of Man," which is pretty good, and also, as you have noticed, has an AMAZING title.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Bulldog on November 03, 2010, 01:23:07 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 10:54:47 AM
Reicha is getting gouged because not enough people know his music.
8)

He's not getting gouged.  He just doesn't have any votes, and that's not surprising given the other names on the list.  I've been a fan of Reicha's music for many years, but I couldn't vote for him ahead of Dvorak or Janacek.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: springrite on November 03, 2010, 01:28:15 PM
My vote never counted. Janacek should be in the lead and Suk should have a solitary vote as well.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on November 03, 2010, 01:23:07 PM
He's not getting gouged.  He just doesn't have any votes, and that's not surprising given the other names on the list.  I've been a fan of Reicha's music for many years, but I couldn't vote for him ahead of Dvorak or Janacek.

What can I say; I didn't either. I'm very keen on Bohemians (Rosetti is another fave), choosing one, even off a limited list, is too damned difficult. :(

8)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 03, 2010, 01:43:06 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 01:29:57 PM
choosing one, even off a limited list, is too damned difficult. :(

8)

That's funny: it was easy for me.  Dvorak! :D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 01:54:19 PM
Quote from: springrite on November 03, 2010, 01:28:15 PM
My vote never counted. Janacek should be in the lead and Suk should have a solitary vote as well.

Now we have to figure out if your vote was intercepted by the Great Firewall of China, or the U.S. Homeland Security Department.   :P
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 02:09:52 PM
Quote from: springrite on November 03, 2010, 01:28:15 PM
My vote never counted. Janacek should be in the lead and Suk should have a solitary vote as well.
I think it did. After I voted, Janacek and Dvorak were tied at one apiece and we were the first to respond.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 02:11:22 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 02:09:52 PM
I think it did. After I voted, Janacek and Dvorak were tied at one apiece and we were the first to respond.

And how does that explain that Suk shows zero? 
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 02:17:53 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 02:11:22 PM
And how does that explain that Suk shows zero?
Who voted for Suk?  Springrite voted for Janacek.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Scarpia on November 03, 2010, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 03, 2010, 02:17:53 PM
Who voted for Suk?  Springrite voted for Janacek.

I took Springrites post immediately above as indicating he voted for Suk.  But at this point I don't see what he means (i.e., only one vote is permitted).
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: not edward on November 03, 2010, 03:18:54 PM
For once, a poll I find easy to answer. Much as I love Martinu, and as I keep finding new things to admire in Dvorak, Janacek is one of the composers who speaks most directly to me.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Superhorn on November 03, 2010, 03:19:28 PM
  I love Czech music so much I can't possibly choose among Smetana,Dvorak or Janacek. I don't quite know the music of the other composers as well as these so I can't say. But I do enjoy what I've heard of their music very much,and I have heard a fair amount of it.  There's so much of Martinu's huge output I haven't heard yet
but would like to.
  I have Jarvi's excellent Chandos recordings of the three Fibich symphonies with the now troubled Detroit Symphony, and these are delightful, but no one else but Jarvi seems to have done them in the US except the tireless Neeme.Too bad.
   And if you can find the Supraphon recording of his opera Sarka(pronounced Sharka) ,grab it. It's a sleeper. This is the same subject as the Sarka in Smetana's Ma Vlast.
  I also have the mono Supraphon recording of choral work"The Storm" by Dvorak pupil Vitezslav Novak, which is a striking work that deserves to be better known,coupled with Dvorak's spooky oratorio "The Spectre's Bride". I recommend this 2 CD set highly.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 03, 2010, 07:46:20 PM
The heart says Martinu but I know Janacek must be it.

Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Mirror Image on November 03, 2010, 07:56:52 PM
Over the course of a year, Martinu has found his way into my heart and continues to pull on it. He remains my favorite Czech composer followed by Suk. None of the others do much for me, though I do enjoy a good bit of Janacek's music.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: snyprrr on November 03, 2010, 08:11:10 PM
But Zelenka was a Genius.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Air on November 03, 2010, 11:06:03 PM
The string quartets of Janacek, were for me, the deciding factor.  But with the operas, the mass, the symphonic works and other chamber compositions, not to mention the solo piano stuff... there ain't much to complain about with this guy.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: The new erato on November 03, 2010, 11:15:53 PM
Janacek, Martionu or Zelenka for me (I'm not much into Romanticism). Each so great, and in so different ways.

But just now listening to the string quartets of Kalabis. Pure bliss!
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2010, 12:01:13 AM
Quote from: Air on November 03, 2010, 11:06:03 PM
The string quartets of Janacek, were for me, the deciding factor.  But with the operas, the mass, the symphonic works and other chamber compositions, not to mention the solo piano stuff... there ain't much to complain about with this guy.

It would be interesting to break down the composers against each other by genre...but even there it would still be difficult: Janacek v. (mature) Dvorak on quartets, Martinu v. Dvorak on symphonies and concertos, all 3 on operas, all 3 on "miscellaneous chamber music" - still hard to choose.

And poll results can be misleading. Smetana, a well-known name, has zero votes so far. But in the real world, I think he still gets plenty of love.  :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 04, 2010, 01:15:10 AM
Quote from: Velimir on November 04, 2010, 12:01:13 AM
It would be interesting to break down the composers against each other by genre...but even there it would still be difficult: Janacek v. (mature) Dvorak on quartets, Martinu v. Dvorak on symphonies and concertos, all 3 on operas, all 3 on "miscellaneous chamber music" - still hard to choose.

Actually, I think going down that route makes things a little easier, even though it isn't my reason for choosing Janacek:

Quartets - Janacek (without doubt - he's doing something entirely different and new; those two works are amongst the absolutely essential quartets in the history of the genre. Dvorak's later ones - the last four or five - are wonderful pieces all, but without them history of the genre would look pretty much the same...and however good they are, they don't have the burning, desperate passion of Janacek's. But then nothing does. Martinu's quartets are not his finest works, in general, though there is much pleasure to be had from them. Smetana's two, if they were in the mix, would shake things up a little, but Janacek would still have it IMO)

Symphonies and Concertos - Dvorak (hard, this one, but I fall down on the side of the older composer because of the sheer quality and strength of the best of the music here. Martinu's Fourth and Sixth symphonies are amongst my favourite symphonies of all, and the best of his many, many concerti are wonderful things, but put alongside Dvorak's last three or four symphonies (and IMO the third, but that's just me!) and at least two of his concerti the durability, humanity and freshness of Dvorak's ideas seems to me to win out. Janacek doesn't really compete here - there aren't any works in these forms. But if we included the Sinfonietta, if we included the completed-by-others Violin Concerto (which, ironically, happens to be about my favourite Janacek orchestral piece) and the two little piano concerti with chamber ensemble...well, I'd still come down for Dvorak, but it would be a close run thing.)

Other orchestral music - Janacek (hard, again - there are Dvorak's four late symphonic poems to consider, though they are somewhat problematic pieces, perhaps; and there are a few very interesting non-symphonic scores by Martinu, particularly from the earlier part of his career...but it seems to me that, just on the basis of the best of his fairly small corpus of orchestral piece - to me, that would be the late, great Sinfonietta, Taras Bulba and The Fiddler's Child (his finest symphonic poem?), leaving out The Ballad of Blanik as an interesting semi-success only - Janacek has three works of such communicative power that I can't help but fall on his side again.)

Operas - Janacek (without doubt - he's the only one with operas consistently in performance around the world; he was a born stage composer whose whole philosophy hinged around the sort of issues that an opera composer needs to be concerned with, and that's why he's one of the supreme opera specialist composers of the 20th century. Put him with Britten, Strauss and Berg in this respect...with Puccini, who he loved and whose influence is to be heard in his music, too. Dvorak's operas contain much wonderful music, and Martinu is a real opera man too - Julietta, which might well be his masterpiece, ought to be much better known than it is, because it's one of the most original and interesting operas of the century too - but even so, neither of them has the consistent string of enormous successes that Janacek has, nor the vitality or the ability to reach inside his characters with so much truth and honesty)

Piano music - Janacek (really, there's little competition - Dvorak wrote quite a bit but most of it isn't of much interest; Martinu's piano works are comparatively weak. Janacek has only three major pieces, but all of them have the intensity and confessional intimacy of his best works - indeed, they are amongst his most personal pieces, almost diary-like in some places. If we opened things up to the other Czechs here, there'd be more competition, I think. Smetana was a really fine piano composer - if Dvorak could have written like him for the instrument, that would have been something! - and some of his earlier works for the instrument, such as the Macbeth and the Witches piece, are experimental in a really startling way we don't expect of him. Suk's piano cycles are a hugely neglected side of his output, every bit as good as his orchestral music, and something like the flipside of it - his About Mother, for instance, is the intimate, personal complement to the grand, cosmic tragedy of the Asrael Symphony (both concerning the death of his wife). Fibich, meanwhile, wrote those masses and masses of small pieces as a kind of amorous-erotic diary for years - the heart of his output in many ways, in fact. In the cases of Suk, Fibich and Janacek, we have composers who used the piano for the most intimate thoughts...but, in the case of Janacek, always the most intimate of composers, that means something particularly extreme)

Other (non string quartet) chamber music - Dvorak (despite Janacek's three utterly endearing masterpieces for chamber ensemble outside the quartets - Mladi, the Violin Sonata and the cello Pohadka...there are two more if you include the mini-piano concerti Capriccio and Concertino - and despite Martinu's many forays into the genre, which include fabulous pieces like the nonet and so many pieces for wonderfully chosen ensembles a la Henning - theremin quartet, anyone? - Dvorak, with works such as the Piano Quintet and the Terzetto, the Piano Trios, the works for violin and piano, seems to me the most heavyweight in this area of the repertoire.)

Songs - buggered if I know! But Janacek's Diary of One who Disappeared would appear to me to be the biggest summit in this particular mountain range - it's almost an opera in some respects, and, again, it's such a confessional, personal work, with a central section of a quietly, intensely burning eroticism and in general a penetrating understanding of adolescent passion amazing in such an aged composer...

It's for reasons like this - and I'm trying not to be biased! - that Janacek is the only choice for me, overall.

QuoteAnd poll results can be misleading. Smetana, a well-known name, has zero votes so far. But in the real world, I think he still gets plenty of love.  :)

He does...but mostly on the basis of two or three popular classics, though. There's a whole world of richness in his music, and it's not explored as much as it deserves.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 04, 2010, 01:20:55 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 04, 2010, 01:15:10 AM

Piano music - Janacek (really, there's little competition - Dvorak wrote quite a bit but most of it isn't of much interest...

Seems a little harsh, this, I know! Especially when there are pieces like the early Silhouettes to consider, and, scattered around the rest of his output, some lovely little gems. But, all things considered, the piano wasn't really his area, I think.

Janacek modelled his early and still-formative Zdenka Variations on Dvorak's much finer and more mature set, IMO (I did a small-scale analytical comparison of the two as part of my degree). Not sure why I say that, it's just interesting.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 04, 2010, 01:33:02 AM
The one major genre missed off the above, I suppose, is:

Choral music - Janacek has that little rustic beauty the Otce Nas, he has those three incredible male choruses setting Petr Bezruc - wow wow wow! - and plenty of other outstanding choral works (let me mention an incredible Tagore setting  :o  :o ), and larger chorus+orchestra pieces like The Eternal Gospel (never really grabbed me, that one)...Martinu has many adorable pieces, such as the late (rustic, again) chamber cantatas which I love to distraction, and that fabulous piece The Epic of Gilgamesh; Dvorak has a Requiem, a Stabat Mater...this is hard..  ???  ???  ???...no, wait: the Glagolitic Mass. Decision made!
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 01:37:49 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 04, 2010, 01:15:10 AM
Actually, I think going down that route makes things a little easier, even though it isn't my reason for choosing Janacek:

Other orchestral music - Janacek (hard, again - there are Dvorak's four late symphonic poems to consider, though they are somewhat problematic pieces, perhaps; and there are a few very interesting non-symphonic scores by Martinu, particularly from the earlier part of his career...but it seems to me that, just on the basis of the best of his fairly small corpus of orchestral piece - to me, that would be the late, great Sinfonietta, Taras Bulba and The Fiddler's Child (his finest symphonic poem?), leaving out The Ballad of Blanik as an interesting semi-success only - Janacek has three works of such communicative power that I can't help but fall on his side again.)

Songs - buggered if I know! But Janacek's Diary of One who Disappeared would appear to me to be the biggest summit in this particular mountain range - it's almost an opera in some respects, and, again, it's such a confessional, personal work, with a central section of a quietly, intensely burning eroticism and in general a penetrating understanding of adolescent passion amazing in such an aged composer...

It's for reasons like this - and I'm trying not to be biased! - that Janacek is the only choice for me, overall.
We'll get to the orchestral music in a minute, but I would have had a Choral music category (I see you did in your subsequent post). You've left out Dvorak's Requiem, which I think is terribly underrated. You also didn't mention the Serenades, which ooze beauty and everything good in life. 

But back to the orchestral music... Non. Non. And a third time - Non.  :o

You have forgotten the Slavonic Dances - a more infectious piece of music has never been written!! And the Legends - which is for both piano and orchestra - oh my what gloriously crafted music! I can listen to these two pieces over and over (and I do).  This is the one category that I totally disagreed with your assessment.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2010, 01:41:23 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 04, 2010, 01:20:55 AM
Seems a little harsh, this, I know! Especially when there are pieces like the early Silhouettes to consider, and, scattered around the rest of his output, some lovely little gems. But, all things considered, the piano wasn't really his area, I think.

And let's not forget the first half of the Humoresques set... some of those pieces are in a dangerously jazzy idiom!

Luke, I have to pick Janacek for choral music just for the Glagolitic Mass, but surely you haven't forgotten one of the very best, most joyously "Dvorakian" works in Dvorak's entirely output - the Te Deum!
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 04, 2010, 02:28:53 AM
Well, you see, I'm not really into this kind of categorical thinking myself in any case, I was just trying to take Velimir's idea and categories and see where they took me. And I added a couple more categories (non symphonic orchestral and songs) which occured to me as I posted, and then, stupid me, having forgotten choral music entirely, needed a new post to cover that. But I don't really see composers' music as breaking down like this - not these composers, not any composers. Whether it's Ravel or Sibelius or Janacek or Dvorak or Martinu or Strauss or...whoever, it's the general tone of the composer's output which counts for me, not how they 'score' genre-by-genre against other composers. There are some fairly consistent reasons why Janacek 'won' most of the head-to-heads in my post, and of course they are all IMO only, but they are all to do with the general tone of Janacek's music, that intimacy and honesty and directness and humanity and utter obsession with truth which he took to an extreme more than any other composer (Tippett, Mussorgsky and a few others might run him close, though...). I value those qualities hugely, they move me immensely, so in any genre where Janacek has a significant body of works, I'm likely to find that the sheer force of utterance impresses me to the extent that other composers simply aren't in the game. But that's just me - with a different set of criteria, if (say) joyousness and physicality and earworm potential and gorgeous warmth were my measure, then Dvorak might have been my choice (or indeed Martinu - he fits those brackets pretty well too...).

BTW, I was thinking precisely of those Humoresques when I wrote my little addendum post that you quoted. But even including works like these, and there are a few others too, scattered through his output, the music doesn't seem to me to contain as much real substance as Janacek's.

(I didn't forget the Te Deum, btw, Brian.....I just don't like it very much! I will give it another listen though, I'm sure the fault lies with me... and @ukrneal, no, I included the Requiem in my post. I like that one more than the Te Deum, but it's no Glagolitic Mass...)

Re. Dvorak's Slavonic Dances - hell yeah, wonderful little things! There are some superb Smetana Czech Dances in the same vein, for piano only, great little virtuoso pieces. And Janacek has an adorable early Suite (op 3 lol!) and the Lachian Dances of course. That Janacek Suite is such fun, I think... but to return to your point, though the Dvorak Slavonic Dances are such perfect little gems, I'd still give the nod to Janacek based on the Sinfonietta and the other two pieces I mentioned. But it's a silly, pointless game, and it's not even comparing like with like!  :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 04, 2010, 02:40:16 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 04, 2010, 02:28:53 AM
Well, you see, I'm not really into this kind of categorical thinking myself in any case, I was just trying to take Velimir's idea and categories and see where they took me. And I added a couple more categories (non symphonic orchestral and songs) which occured to me as I posted, and then, stupid me, having forgotten choral music entirely, needed a new post to cover that. But I don't really see composers' music as breaking down like this - not these composers, not any composers. Whether it's Ravel or Sibelius or Janacek or Dvorak or Martinu or Strauss or...whoever, it's the general tone of the composer's output which counts for me, not how they 'score' genre-by-genre against other composers. There are some fairly consistent reasons why Janacek 'won' most of the head-to-heads in my post, and of course they are all IMO only, but they are all to do with the general tone of Janacek's music, that intimacy and honesty and directness and humanity and utter obsession with truth which he took to an extreme more than any other composer (Tippett, Mussorgsky and a few others might run him close, though...). I value those qualities hugely, they move me immensely, so in any genre where Janacek has a significant body of works, I'm likely to find that the sheer force of utterance impresses me to the extent that other composers simply aren't in the game. But that's just me - with a different set of criteria, if (say) joyousness and physicality and earworm potential and gorgeous warmth were my measure, then Dvorak might have been my choice (or indeed Martinu - he fits those brackets pretty well too...).

BTW, I was thinking precisely of those Humoresques when I wrote my little addendum post that you quoted. But even including works like these, and there are a few others too, scattered through his output, the music doesn't seem to me to contain as much real substance as Janacek's.

(I didn't forget the Te Deum, btw, Brian.....I just don't like it very much! I will give it another listen though, I'm sure the fault lies with me... and @ukrneal, no, I included the Requiem in my post. I like that one more than the Te Deum, but it's no Glagolitic Mass...)

Re. Dvorak's Slavonic Dances - hell yeah, wonderful little things! There are some superb Smetana Czech Dances in the same vein, for piano only, great little virtuoso pieces. And Janacek has an adorable early Suite (op 3 lol!) and the Lachian Dances of course. That Janacek Suite is such fun, I think... but to return to your point, though the Dvorak Slavonic Dances are such perfect little gems, I'd still give the nod to Janacek based on the Sinfonietta and the other two pieces I mentioned. But it's a silly, pointless game, and it's not even comparing like with like!  :)
Good post!
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2010, 03:07:17 AM
Thanks for making this thread fun, guys  :)

brief commentary on Luke's extensive post

Quote from: Luke on November 04, 2010, 01:15:10 AM
Quartets - Janacek (without doubt -

Agreed, no debate really, but those late Dvorak 4tets are exceptional - some of the best between Beethoven on one side and Bartok (& Janacek!) on the other. It would hurt to be without them. The Martinu 4tets, except for the 5th, aren't really in contention here.

QuoteSymphonies and Concertos - Dvorak

I give this one to Martinu for the following reasons: 1. Among Martinu's 6 symphonies, all are good and some are great, while I could happy do without Dvorak's first 4 or even 5 symphonies. Dvorak's 6-9 are indeed masterpieces, but I could happily live without ever hearing the "New World" again. So Martinu wins in the symphony category. He also wins in the concertos - although some of them are relative duds, several are among my favorite concertos written by anyone, and some display a degree of formal innovation that I've never heard from Dvorak. As for Dvorak, yeah the Cello Cto. is nice, but I'm one of those strange people who likes the Violin Cto. more. A clear win for Martinu on this one.

QuoteOther orchestral music - Janacek

IMHO, Janacek comes  third here - while the Sinfonietta and Taras Bulba are fun pieces, they don't strike me as very deep, and I rarely have a desire to hear them. I'd much rather listen to Martinu's Frescoes or Parables or Dvorak's Symphonic Variations (now there's an underrated score) or Scherzo cappriccioso. If forced to choose between the two though, I give the edge to Martinu because of the visionary quality of those late scores - there's something mind-expanding about them, which I don't really get from Dvorak.

QuoteOperas - Janacek (without doubt -

No argument there.

QuotePiano music - Janacek (really, there's little competition -

No argument there, either! (not that I know enough to argue this one anyway)

QuoteOther (non string quartet) chamber music - Dvorak

That's a really hard one - they all did great things in that area. In the end I'll vote for Dvorak too, just because I think he's the most consistently outstanding.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 04, 2010, 03:31:06 AM
Quote from: Velimir on November 04, 2010, 03:07:17 AM

IMHO, Janacek comes  third here - while the Sinfonietta and Taras Bulba are fun pieces, they don't strike me as very deep, and I rarely have a desire to hear them. I'd much rather listen to Martinu's Frescoes or Parables or Dvorak's Symphonic Variations (now there's an underrated score) or Scherzo cappriccioso. If forced to choose between the two though, I give the edge to Martinu because of the visionary quality of those late scores - there's something mind-expanding about them, which I don't really get from Dvorak.


Yes, and you make me think again, too, because those two Martinu scores you mention are amongst my favourite Martinu pieces of all - I listen to them all the time, and I have no idea why I forgot them earlier!! Fabulous pieces. I also agree, funnily enough, that Taras Bulba isn't quite the work it's often seen to be - it's one of Janacek's big hits, but it's a flawed piece, and in including it as one of the works which swings things in his favour I was, to an extent, letting the general opinion of the piece influence things. But the Sinfonietta, and the Fiddler's Child - I don't think there is any Czech orchestral music better than these two, though others equal them, those Martinu scores you mention amongst them. Cheers!  :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 04, 2010, 03:45:13 AM
I will argue with opera=Janacek.  Did someone forget about the Bartered Bride?  Really no Janacek will not walk away with the prize this time. $:)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: DavidW on November 04, 2010, 03:48:17 AM
In fact the Bartered Bride is popular enough for radio play, which is how I heard it.  I don't think Janacek's operas receive that kind of attention.


Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Philoctetes on November 04, 2010, 04:34:20 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 04, 2010, 03:45:13 AM
I will argue with opera=Janacek.  Did someone forget about the Bartered Bride?  Really no Janacek will not walk away with the prize this time. $:)

I'd wager you'd lose that argument quite handily.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Maciek on November 04, 2010, 04:38:06 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 04, 2010, 03:48:17 AM
In fact the Bartered Bride is popular enough for radio play, which is how I heard it.  I don't think Janacek's operas receive that kind of attention.

My first contact with two of Janacek's operas (Jenůfa and From the House of the Dead) was through live radio broadcasts.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 04, 2010, 05:01:00 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 04, 2010, 03:45:13 AM
I will argue with opera=Janacek.  Did someone forget about the Bartered Bride?  Really no Janacek will not walk away with the prize this time. $:)

The Bartered Bride is the 'Czech National Opera' par excellence (though Janacek, as a Moravian, isn't really in that contest - Jenufa, his own 'folk opera', is specifically Moravian), and its popularity springs from that above all (do we know the other non-folky Smetana operas so well? I've heard Dalibor and a bit of Libuse, but....)

OTOH Janacek, as less biased sources than me say over and over too, is one of the really, really great opera specialist composers, and in the context of the 20th century he would surely rank alongside Britten or Strauss in this respect, as I said, and perhaps even higher. His operas get frequent airplay here in the UK - I just stuck 'Janacek Radio 3' into Google and came up with recent performances of Cunning Little Vixen, Kat'a Kabanova and House of the Dead in the top 4 results (the other result being the all-Janacek day they held in 2004, his 150th birthday - a distinction they've awarded very few composers so far).
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: karlhenning on November 04, 2010, 05:42:32 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on November 03, 2010, 08:11:10 PM
But Zelenka was a Genius.

Oh, cut that out! ; )
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brahmsian on November 04, 2010, 05:45:23 AM
With most votes chimed in already, looks like Janacek could take this one.

What's next?  Feldman tops Brahms!?  :D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 04, 2010, 06:21:44 AM
Btw, to return to that earlier genre-to-genre comparison - in a comparative discussion of Czech orchestral music it is remiss to omit mention of Suk, probably the finest orchestrator of the lot of them, in the traditional Mahler-Strauss sense of the word anyway. Novak too, but Suk especially.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2010, 06:27:01 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 04, 2010, 06:21:44 AM
Btw, to return to that earlier genre-to-genre comparison - in a comparative discussion of Czech orchestral music it is remiss to omit mention of Suk, probably the finest orchestrator of the lot of them, in the traditional Mahler-Strauss sense of the word anyway. Novak too, but Suk especially.

Agree completely, and I thought of that too (just didn't want to over-complicate things). The only knock I would make against him is that he's not quite as distinctive a voice as the other three (he does sound a lot like other composers - not just Mahler and Strauss but also Tchaikovsky).
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Luke on November 04, 2010, 06:28:59 AM
ooh, I don't know, in things like A Summer's Tale and About Mother there is a very distinctive Suk tone, to the orchestration (in the former) and to the harmony. Couldn't be anyone else - that's part of the reason I love his music a great deal!Q  :)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2010, 06:48:48 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 04, 2010, 06:28:59 AM
ooh, I don't know, in things like A Summer's Tale and About Mother there is a very distinctive Suk tone, to the orchestration (in the former) and to the harmony. Couldn't be anyone else - that's part of the reason I love his music a great deal!Q  :)

You may be right. That gives me a reason to go back to A Summer's Tale, which I haven't listened to in years.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2010, 08:15:03 AM
"The Blind Musicians" strikes me as an utterly brilliant little sound-picture. Haunting.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: k-k-k-kenny on November 18, 2010, 04:22:09 PM
Surprised that in this knowledgeable company the name of Miloslav Kabeláč hasn't been mentioned previously.
True, my exposure to his output has so far been limited to the Mystery of Time, songs Op. 25, a bit of his 7th symphony and the piano Preludes Op. 30. The last, in particular, are of the highest quality, and get equal time with, say, Richter's account of Rachmaninoff preludes & etudes-tableaux or Koroliov's WTC in our house.
So that may explain the sole "other" vote.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Sid on November 18, 2010, 07:57:24 PM
My favourite of these is definitely Janacek. His string quartets are the works that I got to know by him initially, after borrowing them from the local library. Then more recently, I began to collect some of his other stuff. My favourite works by him are the Glagolitic Mass, Taras Bulba, the violin sonata and the solo piano works. I'm not much into opera, so his works in that genre don't interest me all that much (although I do have one of the Naxos cd's of Peter Breiner's arrangements of suites from the operas). What I like about his music, the solo piano music in particular, is that he is able to express a lot with very little. He had no interest in Austro-Germanic music (probably hated it) and this worked in his favour, he just did things the way he wanted to, no holds barred. Traditionalists said that he was destroying the "Czech tradition" but he was actually probably the first fully Czech composer, Dvorak having been much influenced by Brahms and Smetana by Wagner. So there you go...

He is currently No. 1 on this poll, but in the "real world" I think comparatively few classical listeners are really familiar with him. Far more people know Dvorak's 9th Symphony, Serenade, Cello Concerto, etc. or Smetana's Moldau. I've been listening to classical for over 20 years and Reicha and Zelenka strike me as even more obscure (don't remember hearing anything by them). As for Martinu, his music has been gaining some ground in recent decades, but like Janacek, he's nowhere near as popular as Dvorak or Smetana...
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Mirror Image on November 18, 2010, 08:05:41 PM
Quote from: Sid on November 18, 2010, 07:57:24 PMAs for Martinu, his music has been gaining some ground in recent decades, but he's nowhere near as popular as Dvorak or Smetana...

This saddens me, because I'm afraid that Martinu may never have the same kind of popularity as the other more famous Czech composers. Let's face it Martinu's music still only appeals to a specialized group of listeners like people on forums or the more hardcore fans who know there were many more great Czech composers besides Dvorak.

I was talking to a friend of mine who lives in the Czech Republic the other day and I asked him about Martinu's popularlity there and he said his music gets performed regularly, but then my friend asked me how much does Barber or Copland get played in the United States and I said "Hardly ever." What this tells me is that American orchestras are doing a huge disservice to their own country by not performing more American composers. Needless to say, this country is going downhill fast.

You know something is wrong when an American has to go to England or Russia to hear an American composer's music get performed.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 18, 2010, 10:07:45 PM
Quote from: k-k-k-kenny on November 18, 2010, 04:22:09 PM
Surprised that in this knowledgeable company the name of Miloslav Kabeláč

Yes, worth mentioning. I haven't heard much of his music, though I did get to hear the 4th Symphony in concert, conducted by Belohlavek. It made enough of an impression that I went out and bought the only available recording the next day.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 18, 2010, 08:05:41 PM
You know something is wrong when an American has to go to England or Russia to hear an American composer's music get performed.

LOL - I've been living in Russia for almost 6 years, and I can tell you American music hardly gets played here.

BTW, I do think Copland and Barber get a fair amount of play in the US (as do more modern guys like Adams, Rouse and Carter). Maybe it depends where you live.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Grazioso on November 19, 2010, 04:00:37 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2010, 10:54:47 AM
Reicha is getting gouged because not enough people know his music. Where's Fibich? And Benda and Vanhal... :-\   I voted for Dvorak cause I like his looks; good, solid, conservative looking sort of person.... :)

8)

Czech it out: where the heck is Novak? (And Rosetti and Kalliwoda if earlier composers are in the game?)
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Superhorn on November 19, 2010, 07:17:33 AM
  Mirror Image,I don't agree with you about the neglect of American composers here. In fact, they're played here much more than you realize,and contemporary composers such as Adams,Glass,Rouse,Bolcom,Carter, Heggie, Liberman and others aren't doing badly at all,and they can't complain that their music is being neglected, certainly not with conductors like Saltkin,Schwarz,Zinman,Alsop,Thomas etc and their admirable commitment to American composers.
  Unfortunately,Smetanan is known by very little of his output.
   How many people outside the Czech republic know his other operas Dalibor,The Kiss, Libuse, The Two Widows,The Brandenburgers in Bohemia, The Devil's Wall, etc? Not many.
  I've heard them all on CD, and they're very much worth hearing.
   The neglect of Dalibor, a true operatic masterpiece,and unlike the Bartred Bride,a grim tragedy,is inexcusable.
   It's sort of like Fidelio with a tragic ending,or you might call it
   Fidelio meets Bernie Goetz,as strange as this may sound.
   The role of Dalibor would be perfect for Ben Heppner.
     I also have the Supraphon recording of his only symphony, which uses the same melody as "Deutschland Uber Alles in the slow movement,long before it was appropriated by the Nazis. It's a most interesting work,and Karel Sejna conducts the Czech Philharmonic.
   Other Smetanan orchestra works,such as the tone poems Haakon Jarl and Wallenstein's Camp are also very effective and should be heard more often.
   The piano piece "Macbeth and the Witches",later orchestrated by some one else,contains startlingly 20th century harmonies and dissonances ,and you'd think it was written in the 1920s! 
   And I can't unerstand the neglect of Dvorak's 4 Slavonic Rhapsodies,not to be confused with the Slavonic Dances,which I have on Naxos. Get this recording ,with Zdenek Kosler and Libor Pesek dividing the conducting duties without delay !  You'll wonder where they've been all your life.
   
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: The new erato on November 22, 2010, 01:43:04 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 18, 2010, 08:05:41 PM
What this tells me is that American orchestras are doing a huge disservice to their own country by not performing more American composers.
What this tells me (in addition to the current woeful underrecording of the major US orchestras) is that they are too dependent  on commercial funding and therefore functions as commercial undertakings to a larger degree than is usual in Europe.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Brian on November 22, 2010, 04:53:25 AM
Quote from: erato on November 22, 2010, 01:43:04 AM
What this tells me (in addition to the current woeful underrecording of the major US orchestras) is that they are too dependent  on commercial funding and therefore functions as commercial undertakings to a larger degree than is usual in Europe.

Exactly this. Since American orchestras draw a pittance in government funding (the Detroit Symphony Orchestra receives just $20,000 from the government), they are more heavily dependent on ticket sales, donations and corporate giving. In the current recession, corporate giving has fallen to essentially nil, which means that American orchestras' sole purpose right now is to maximize ticket sales. The programming has to reflect that goal.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Gabriel on December 03, 2010, 05:30:05 PM
Well, surprisingly Reicha has got one vote right now... ;D
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Daverz on December 03, 2010, 11:29:03 PM
I'd add Fibich and Novak to the mix.

I don't think of Reicha or Zelenka as particularly "Czech" in any way.  I don't think you get a Czech national identity in music until Smetana and Dvorak. 

Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: The new erato on December 03, 2010, 11:31:49 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 03, 2010, 11:29:03 PM
I'd add Fibich and Novak to the mix.

I don't think of Reicha or Zelenka as particularly "Czech" in any way.  I don't think you get a Czech national identity in music until Smetana and Dvorak.
Probably right, and understandable, as a lot of what we today regard as national identity first surfaced in the romantic period.
Title: Re: Czech Composers vs. Each Other
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 03, 2010, 11:50:43 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on December 03, 2010, 05:30:05 PM
Well, surprisingly Reicha has got one vote right now... ;D

I figured you'd show up eventually  ;)

Quote from: Daverz on December 03, 2010, 11:29:03 PM
I don't think of Reicha or Zelenka as particularly "Czech" in any way.

Maybe - both spent almost their whole careers outside of Bohemia. I just threw them into the mix because I thought they deserved attention.