There was a topic on the Opus 132 quartet some time ago. Why don't we do this for the C sharp minor, too?
Personally I like this quartet a lot more than the next one. The riveting solo opening and the wonderful variation movement in the middle.
I put this in the Great Recordings board, but hopefully some will want to add just some observations on the music, irrespective of who recorded this piece best.
I don't know if I can really choose between 131 and 132 - or any of Beethoven's late quartets, really - but I do like this one quite a bit. I love the changes throughout, and I especially enjoy the Andante variations and the exhilarating Presto.
To recordings, it's the usual suspects for me: Budpest (any recording), Vegh, and Prazak. But I also have very fond memories of hearing the Brentano Quartet play it in concert. If only they had a recording contract.
I still struggle with this piece at times. There are parts that I love, and other parts that leave me shaking my head in puzzlement.
The 5th movement drives me nuts. It makes me think of mice running frantically in a treadmill.
Quote from: Spitvalve on April 06, 2009, 08:23:57 AM
The 5th movement drives me nuts. It makes me think of mice running frantically in a treadmill.
Nice one ;D
That's why I like it -- because it evokes these mad images.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2009, 07:14:06 AM
And the Busches capture transcendent, mystical quality of the rest very well I think. And they have a great drive and forward momentum.
Agreed. A few years ago, while I was visiting a friend in northern California, he put the Busch version on the turntable during a vinyl-only listening session. (Older collectors will recall that U.S. Columbia held the rights to op.131 while EMI held the rights to most of the other LvB late quartets by the Busch Qt., so this was a Columbia pressing.) We had been chattering about one thing and another over all the other music we'd sampled, but when he put this on, we both shut up and just listened. At the end of side one, we flipped to side two and continued...with very little comment. And at the end of side two, we just sat for a while. As I recall, we both felt like replaying the record right then and there, but decided it might spoil the effect. But we didn't bother putting anything else on afterward--it would have been anticlimactic. Not the only version to have, of course, and it presents old-fashioned style (portamento, etc.) that won't be to everyone's taste, but this is still strong edge-of-the-seat stuff, beautifully presented, and highly recommended.
FWIW,
Dirk
It took me a very long time to admire this quartet. I really couldn't understand why Op. 131 was considered by many to be "the greatest" of Beethoven's string quartet. I took to Op. 130 very quickly, and eventually Op. 132, but it took much longer for me to enjoy Op. 131.
Now I understand what the fuss is all about! :) 0:)
The Vegh stereo version blew me away the first time I heard it. I was having some trouble getting into the Vegh and Op 131 and both of them just clicked. The opening measures are stunning.
I was once in the HMV store in London and they were playing an orchestral arrangement of it, by Stokowsky I think. It sounded exactly like what you would expect. I didn't buy it, but maybe this was snobbery -- it didn't sound bad at all.
Does anyone have the record? -- is it good?
The arrangement for string orchestra was one of Bernstein's last recordings, I seem to recall.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2009, 11:46:51 AM
I was once in the HMV store in London and they were playing an orchestral arrangement of it, by Stokowsky I think. It sounded exactly like what you would expect. I didn't buy it, but maybe this was snobbery -- it didn't sound bad at all.
Does anyone have the record? -- is it good?
I do... Since it is probably still my favorite classical piece overall, I had to get it. The Allegro movements, particularly the strong finale are OK, but the slow movements are a drag and not suitable as orchestral material IMO. I wouldn't recommend it unless you are really really curious :-\
Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2009, 07:14:06 AM
I think Budapest are probably the best in that opening fugue -- some of the other's make it a bit too static for my tastes.
Getting the opening right - with a simmering energy - is critical. In a way the first half of Op 131, including the variations, can be seen as a kind of prelude.
I was rather surprised to hear how good and musical the Alban Berg Qt is in 131. They take the opening at the same pace as the Budapest and the Andante is full of character - including funny at times.
I prefer the perfect balance of the Juilliard string Quartet. The fugue of the first movement sounds very clear and the variations of the Andante are very well characterized. The tempo is not too fast and the dynamic and contrasts almost ideal.
The Vegh quartet is remarkable but far from the perfection of the Juilliard. But I always felt very moved by this interpretation.
If it was not the sound, my choice would be the Capet Quartet. The articulation is extraordinary. Energy, emotion, balance, they have all. Even with this poor sound it remains one of the greatest interpretations in History of a quartet of Beethoven.
Quote from: val on April 08, 2009, 04:40:19 AM
I prefer the perfect balance of the Juilliard string Quartet. The fugue of the first movement sounds very clear and the variations of the Andante are very well characterized. The tempo is not too fast and the dynamic and contrasts almost ideal.
Oh yes! Which do you have, Val? This is easily my favourite:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SBT1373.jpg)
The musicianship is astounding. I did e-mail Testament a while back, as there are a handful of LvB SQ's recorded by the Juilliard on RCA, but they have no plans to release any more. Such a shame...not that the later cycle they recorded isn't utterly marvellous of course, but that earlier recording of Op.131 and the Schubert is desert island stuff for me.
QuotePeregrine
Oh yes! Which do you have, Val? This is easily my favourite.
I was referring to their recording of the complete quartets (1964/1970).
Anyway, I hope you listen to the old version of the Capet Quartet. You will be surprised with the extreme quality. And the CD also includes the best version of Cesar Franck's piano Quintet.
Speaking of the Juilliard, the funny thing is I thought their interp of 131 was a little bit sentimental and slow - quite the opposite of what one would expect. (I'm referring to the sixties recording.)
Quote from: val on April 08, 2009, 04:40:19 AM
If it was not the sound, my choice would be the Capet Quartet. The articulation is extraordinary. Energy, emotion, balance, they have all. Even with this poor sound it remains one of the greatest interpretations in History of a quartet of Beethoven.
Yes -- they are good. Better than the Busch Quartet maybe. They have a sort of refinement and elegance which the Busch Quartet lacks. Not that the Busch Quartet is crude -- it's just that they are a bit more forceful that The Capets; they stress the accents a little bit more aggressively.
And you're right to say that in their record there's beauty in the balance (I have it with Quartet 15 -- not with Frank), more so than with the Busch Quartet. -I've always assumed that was a consequence of the recording!
I don't know that Juilliard version but I've just ordered it -- thanks for the leads.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 09, 2009, 05:10:52 AM
I don't know that Juilliard version but I've just ordered it -- thanks for the leads.
Jolly good. Do let me know what you think :)
Quote from: Peregrine on April 08, 2009, 05:13:44 AM
Oh yes! Which do you have, Val? This is easily my favourite:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/SBT1373.jpg)
The musicianship is astounding. I did e-mail Testament a while back, as there are a handful of LvB SQ's recorded by the Juilliard on RCA, but they have no plans to release any more. Such a shame...not that the later cycle they recorded isn't utterly marvellous of course, but that earlier recording of Op.131 and the Schubert is desert island stuff for me.
That's one hell of a recording -- thanks a million for putting me on to it.
Now -- any other Beethoven String Quartet records you know about of similar quality? Hearing that has made me hungry for more.
I just managed to get hold of Hagen Quartett in op. 131.
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s150x150/4596112.jpg)
As always they manage to say something new in Beethoven, and new is always challenging. If you can find it, there's another benefit in the "CD Pluscore" where you can (with the CD in your computer) follow the score while hearing them playing. There's a cursor, it's saved me a couple of times.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 16, 2009, 05:16:59 AM
That's one hell of a recording -- thanks a million for putting me on to it.
Now -- any other Beethoven String Quartet records you know about of similar quality? Hearing that has made me hungry for more.
It's great isn't it? Glad you like it. I'd heartily recommend their later cycle they recorded, it may be a slight notch less in intensity, but still my favourite recorded cycle by a long shot. Just wish those other RCA, LvB recordings weren't sitting in a vault somewhere, as people that own the records state they are all in the same league as that Testament CD.
The late LvB set by the Smetana SQ is superb, as is basically everything they recorded... ;) I also like the late set by the Hollywood SQ on Testament, but sound is a bit agricultural. The Vegh set is nice and soulful, profoundly deep at times, but do get irked by some sloppy intonation, particularly up against the Juilliard SQ who are as tight as the proverbial duck's arse in this respect.
There's a lovely LvB Op.59/3 by the New Music SQ on Bartok records, with a rare Op.14/1 (transcription of the piano sonata). They were a SQ from the early 50's that had Claus Adam - later to be a member of the Juilliard SQ. They were a very tight ensemble, much in the Juilliard vein...
BUT, that Testament disc is rather special and would urge anyone who likes/admires SQ playing to pick it up as well as the other Juilliard/Testament discs.
See here -
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10533.0.html
Quote from: Peregrine on April 16, 2009, 11:03:05 PM
It's great isn't it? Glad you like it. I'd heartily recommend their later cycle they recorded, it may be a slight notch less in intensity, but still my favourite recorded cycle by a long shot. Just wish those other RCA, LvB recordings weren't sitting in a vault somewhere, as people that own the records state they are all in the same league as that Testament CD.
The late LvB set by the Smetana SQ is superb, as is basically everything they recorded... ;) I also like the late set by the Hollywood SQ on Testament, but sound is a bit agricultural. The Vegh set is nice and soulful, profoundly deep at times, but do get irked by some sloppy intonation, particularly up against the Juilliard SQ who are as tight as the proverbial duck's arse in this respect.
There's a lovely LvB Op.59/3 by the New Music SQ on Bartok records, with a rare Op.14/1 (transcription of the piano sonata). They were a SQ from the early 50's that had Claus Adam - later to be a member of the Juilliard SQ. They were a very tight ensemble, much in the Juilliard vein...
BUT, that Testament disc is rather special and would urge anyone who likes/admires SQ playing to pick it up as well as the other Juilliard/Testament discs.
See here -
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10533.0.html
Thanks -- I have just ordered The Smetana's first recording of the late quartets. The New Music String Quartet disc is well reviewed here http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2004/July04/Beethoven_Bartok.htm and
seems to be available from here http://www.bartokrecords.com/
By the way -- I have the Hollywood's beethoven. But what do you mean when you say the sound is "agricultural"? Can you hear cows mooing and a sheep dog barking in the background.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 17, 2009, 02:07:12 AM
The New Music String Quartet disc seems impossible to find!
Here you go -
http://www.bartokrecords.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=63
Quote from: Mandryka on April 17, 2009, 02:07:12 AM
By the way -- I have the Hollywood's beethoven. But what do you mean when you say the sound is "agricultural"? Can you hear cows mooing and a sheep dog barking in the background.
;D
I 'spose what I mean is that it's mono and I have no problem with that at all, owning lots of historical recordings, but just found the sound quite gruff? Rough around the edges? It just seems rather rudimentary, where other mono recordings can be quite sublime.
I hope you like the Smetana SQ recs.
:)
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/za/j2/bpx6bafnxj2za_600.jpg)
Budapest Quartet (Columbia, recorded December 1951)
Their sound is often delicate, pretty. The balance tends to be dominated by the outer voices. They like to play on the fast side. They use a limited variety of attacks, and rarely employ a hard attack. Dynamic variation isn't specially marked. The articulation tends to be not particularly incisive, they like long phrases, the emphasis is on a long lyrical line. They use vibrato throughout. What they do is easy to listen to, it works for chillaxing.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2019, 11:56:51 PM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/za/j2/bpx6bafnxj2za_600.jpg)
Budapest Quartet (Columbia, recorded December 1951)
Their sound is often delicate, pretty. The balance tends to be dominated by the outer voices. They like to play on the fast side. They use a limited variety of attacks, and rarely employ a hard attack. Dynamic variation isn't specially marked. The articulation tends to be not particularly incisive, they like long phrases, the emphasis is on a long lyrical line. They use vibrato throughout. What they do is easy to listen to, it works for chillaxing.
I had the original LPs (with those covers) and then got the CD re-issue last year. However, that box as sat on my shelf. One of these days I will give it a re-listen.
It was my second Beethoven SQ acquisition. My first was this one:
(https://img.cdandlp.com/2017/11/imgL/118990686.jpeg)
Quote from: San Antone on February 26, 2019, 12:14:12 AM
It was my second Beethoven SQ acquisition. My first was this one:
(https://img.cdandlp.com/2017/11/imgL/118990686.jpeg)
This was my first Beethoven SQ acquisition as well! :)
Quote from: San Antone on February 26, 2019, 12:14:12 AM
(https://img.cdandlp.com/2017/11/imgL/118990686.jpeg)
My feeling is about this one that it's very . . . Italian. I mean, there's absolutely no hardness, it's all tunes. Just put it on and you'll see, you can sing along, preferably waving your arms up and down like Pavarotti. These guys, this quartet, they think in song!
Quote from: Mandryka on February 26, 2019, 04:16:32 AM
My feeling is about this one that it's very . . . Italian. I mean, there's absolutely no hardness, it's all tunes. Just put it on and you'll see, you can sing along, preferably waving your arms up and down like Pavarotti. These guys, this quartet, they think in song!
You say that almost as if it is a bad thing. :)
Quote from: San Antone on February 26, 2019, 05:27:32 AM
You say that almost as if it is a bad thing. :)
Well I must say there was a moment midway in the fugue, a climax, where I thought of the three tenors singing Nessun Dorma. And there was a bit later on in the quartet, a fast and funny bit, which made me think of Funiculì, Funiculà. In fact I think Pavarotti was a pretty tasteful singer.
https://www.youtube.com/v/yTSAZAHiOa8
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JMJJSQJ4L.jpg)
There's a certain self effacing modesty, a vulnerability, about the tone -- often rather quiet and I guess the effect comes from their vibrato too -- which makes this a really enjoyable performance. No heroic swagger, no flashy virtuosity, no bombast, no kitsch other worldliness, no operatic projection. I'm not sure that there's anything special about the interpretation -- it seems pretty mainstream, there are no real obvious interventions or unusual things. But it is my cup of tea.
Aside from the Quartetto Italiano, I'd put the Vermeer at the top of the heap, an old world warmth in modern sound.
[asin]B000000SHJ[/asin]
I've had it since the 80's, different editions have gone in and out of print.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/24/246479.JPG)
A supple and lean sound on this 1943 recording from the Budapest -- still fast, faster than the 51, with lots of sense of the music being moved forward, and less of the delicacy and prettiness that I sensed, rightly or wrongly, with the 1951. It's just a bit sharper, more incisively articulated, and more driven, less warm, more tough and urban.
This is one which I find is hard to stop listening to when I start, so that's a sign of something. It's natural, what they do seems to really suit the music, there's no sense of anything being forced, and it makes you forget all other performances when you listen.
There you go, found a "great" one! That's my little op 131 adventure over for a while.
I cannot see it; is this from the Library of Congress live recordings (I thought these were later than 1940s?) or the 1940s Columbia studio recording that was also on the Masterworks series?
The one I'm listening to is this (Date of Recording: 05/07/1943)
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=13860
It would be good to sort out these versions by the Budapest. The 1940s Columbia studio recording may be better, I've not heard it. Can you post a link or an image for me? Found it
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tlqjZ%2BjKL.jpg)
Looks like I've got some more op 131 listening to do after all!
I have the two volumes from the 1940s studio recordings (there is another with opp.18/1/4/6, 95 and 59/3) and in my recollection they are all generally rather fastish, especially in slow movements, very fast movements like the first of op.95 or the final of op.59/3 are comparatively slow by today's standards, very straightforward and rather "unromantic".
Quote from: Jo498 on February 27, 2019, 12:40:18 PM
rather "unromantic".
That's true of the live one I liked, I said "tough and urban" which silly I suppose. And it is indeed fast, though whether the op 131 is faster than (eg) The Hungarian Quartet, or indeed The Juilliard, I couldn't say off the top of my head.
Anyway I've just ordered these studio recordings from the 1940s so thanks for pointing them out.
Listened to this one this afternoon -
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wsKbw-GiL._SY355_.jpg)
Smooth playing, well recorded, maybe a bit under-achieved, but enjoyable nonetheless.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 27, 2019, 12:40:18 PM
I have the two volumes from the 1940s studio recordings (there is another with opp.18/1/4/6, 95 and 59/3) and in my recollection they are all generally rather fastish, especially in slow movements, very fast movements like the first of op.95 or the final of op.59/3 are comparatively slow by today's standards, very straightforward and rather "unromantic".
Their op 132 Library of Congress is amazing really, from 1945, I can't recall hearing anyone making it sound more interesting, or more expressive, in all four movements, including the second. Poor sound. Looking forward now to the studio recordings arriving.
I don't recall being particularly impressed with the LOC 131 but I don't think I was that impressed with any of the Budapest's late Beethovens. Probably something I should revisit when I'm not trying to do an actual listening project.
edit: ok I do remember being impressed with the LOC 132.
I only have their older Beethoven recordings, i.e. the two Sony Masterworks twofers just mentioned and a bunch of prewar stuff on Biddulph. They are all a little too much on the "cool" side for my taste.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2019, 04:39:58 AM
I only have their older Beethoven recordings, i.e. the two Sony Masterworks twofers just mentioned and a bunch of prewar stuff on Biddulph. They are all a little too much on the "cool" side for my taste.
Yep, they're incredibly expressive in a cool way.
Actually cool is a good word for their sound: when you listen to (for example) Alban Berg or Peteresen, they sound
hot. I like cool.
(https://img.discogs.com/giIZNWx6myMH0LKEKcaGi_nnUcw=/fit-in/600x573/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-12397742-1534453272-5540.jpeg.jpg)
On my playback equipment, there's a sense of space around the instruments, which helps bring a feeling of interesting polyphony. Like the air in a soufflé the air between the instruments helps lighten up the music - even though they sometimes play slowly it never sounds weighty. All four instruments have a strong presence.
Their playing is rarely percussive, and the accents are never pounded forcefully. It's well articulated I'd say, not so incisively as to prevent the music from flowing.
They project the tones quietly, in a dignified and poised way. The use vibrato pretty well throughout and it makes for a sense of vulnerability and humanity.
I never feel as though they're being carried away, what is expressed is abstract, eternal, not the temporary passion of this or that person. They have abandoned themselves. This intellectual rather than emotional approach brings a special sort of other worldliness to the music, a platonic other worldliness. They never fall into the trap of kitsch.
(https://resources.wimpmusic.com/images/af613ad2/83f5/4a2b/b8cb/b7784e344cc8/640x640.jpg)
The opposite of the ABQ - emotional, badly recorded, forceful.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Sg3anclFL._SY355_.jpg)
There's a lot to be said which might mitigate against this one: it's not so well recorded, the tempos are a bit slower than you'd expect, the first violin sounds like a dentist's drill some of the time. Some critics complained about intonation and ensemble, I expect they're right though I'm not able to spot the problems myself (deaf.) Having said that, it is one of those occasions where "force of nature" is totally spot on for the quality of the music making. They are clearly totally passionate about this music, inhabited by it. The interpretation has a rough hewn, tough ruggedness which is quite unexpected.
They re-recorded it here
(https://img.discogs.com/I2TdAkotC2rsToKyDmcMRFjM56k=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9876252-1487791335-5542.gif.jpg)
That later one is sounds better in hifi terms , tempos are quicker so more conventional, it's more polished and fluid I think, it's rather nice. I don't know it as well in fact, it comes across as just yet another perfectly excellent op 131 to me, while the first for all its very clear and manifold imperfections, is in the "special" category.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 27, 2019, 12:40:18 PM
very straightforward and rather "unromantic".
In the booklet to the Columbia 1940s studio recordings (which arrived yesterday) Harris Goldsmith uses the word "objective" He also, in the context of op 135 admittedly, says that the quartet were interested in what Toscanini was getting up to, which sounds very plausible to me.
I have also read that they were often compared to Toscanini. I think they tend to be "cooler" than him although they might share several features.
Toscanini played the two middle movements of op.135 (swapped in order) in concert with string orchestra.
I might have this on disc but AFAIR the sound quality is fairly bad. And I am not the biggest fan of orchestral versions of string quartet (even if they are unique and fascinating like Bernstein's op.131 from Vienna).
This is one of LvB's works that truly eludes me. I am just not sure if I am missing a joke or something. The theme of the Andante ma non troppo e molto cantabile is surely mocking someone or something and is just plain irritating.
I think it is a fairly plain lyrical theme, certainly not mocking. Maybe chosen as rather simply with respect to variations already. I love that movement, although I would not really want to pick a favorite among the three greatest variation movements for string quartet in musical history contained in opp.127,131 and 132 (although the last one does not appear such a typical variation movement it also is one).
Edit: All these variations contain some lighter, serenade-style or even scherzando sections. The difference in op.131 is that this is the only one that starts in a lighter vein and gets "deeper" as it progresses, although the ecstatic coda with trills and stuff is the most serenade-like section of the mvmt. This is a fascinating mixing of aspects and transformation of ornament into a sublime music.
In op.127 the more flowing or scherzando sections are episodic, in op.132 they are the two "Feeling new strength" sections and in op.130 Beethoven basically split those aspects and put all the serenade-like stuff in the 3rd mvmt. and the cantabile stuff in the Cavatina.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2019, 10:42:45 PM
(https://img.discogs.com/giIZNWx6myMH0LKEKcaGi_nnUcw=/fit-in/600x573/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-12397742-1534453272-5540.jpeg.jpg)
On my playback equipment, there's a sense of space around the instruments, which helps bring a feeling of interesting polyphony. Like the air in a soufflé the air between the instruments helps lighten up the music - even though they sometimes play slowly it never sounds weighty. All four instruments have a strong presence.
Their playing is rarely percussive, and the accents are never pounded forcefully. It's well articulated I'd say, not so incisively as to prevent the music from flowing.
They project the tones quietly, in a dignified and poised way. The use vibrato pretty well throughout and it makes for a sense of vulnerability and humanity.
I never feel as though they're being carried away, what is expressed is abstract, eternal, not the temporary passion of this or that person. They have abandoned themselves. This intellectual rather than emotional approach brings a special sort of other worldliness to the music, a platonic other worldliness. They never fall into the trap of kitsch.
The complete cycle is just arlund the corner in a very cheap Warner box.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2019, 11:01:47 PM
(https://resources.wimpmusic.com/images/af613ad2/83f5/4a2b/b8cb/b7784e344cc8/640x640.jpg)
The opposite of the ABQ - emotional, badly recorded, forceful.
The Testament issue sounds much better, assuming this is the 1960 recording anyway. I have no idea what Sony was doing (if anything) when they "remastered" these recordings.
Quote from: amw on March 10, 2019, 05:43:40 AM
The Testament issue sounds much better,
Yes
Quote from: amw on March 10, 2019, 05:43:40 AM
assuming this is the 1960 recording anyway.
I'm pretty sure it is
Quote from: amw on March 10, 2019, 05:43:40 AM
I have no idea what Sony was doing (if anything) when they "remastered" these recordings.
I suspect no-one cared enough to do a proper job.
Quote from: The new erato on March 10, 2019, 05:37:42 AM
The complete cycle is just arlund the corner in a very cheap Warner box.
It's been a great pleasure to go back to ABQ, in Beethoven and Mozart and Bartok. One thing I was pleased to come across this week is the transfers which came out years ago of their Teldec recordings, the ones with Hatto Beyerle, they're better than the old CDs I had. And like almost everyone else, I prefer their first Mozart recordings for the interpretation.
But the biggest discovery was the Bartok, which I'd always just ignored with the prejudice that they weren't the right sort of ensemble, not enough rooted in Hugarian folk music. But that turned out to be a bad way of thinking, because like Juilliard, they are very rooted in C20 modernism, and that's a very valid way of approaching the quartets - maybe the best way.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 10, 2019, 09:18:38 AM
It's been a great pleasure to go back to ABQ, in Beethoven and Mozart and Bartok. One thing I was pleased to come across this week is the transfers which came out years ago of their Teldec recordings, the ones with Hatto Beyerle, they're better than the old CDs I had. And like almost everyone else, I prefer their first Mozart recordings for the interpretation.
Which release are you talking about?
Are you saying
[asin]B0019DM7Y4[/asin]
is a more recent transfer than
[asin] B000024MCP[/asin]
?
This one contains newer EMI recordings, rather than the old Telefunken/Teldec recordings, I believe.
[asin]B0743JLS7X[/asin]
No. The one I used to have is this one
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71AXMguljCL._SL1141_.jpg)
I've dipped into the bottom one, and on the whole I think I prefer the Teldec performances, but I may change my mind about that: I doubt it but I haven't given it enough time to feel confident.
(I bet someone will tell me that the top one hasn't got any remastering! ??? That would be typical of me.)
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2019, 12:55:32 PM
The one I used to have is the middle one. I now have the top one, which sounded better to me (I'm sure someone's going to post to say they're the same, that would be typical of me :'() I've dipped into the bottom one, and on the whole I think I prefer the Teldec recordings, but I may change my mind about that: I doubt it but I haven't given it enough time to feel confident.
Thanks! I have the middle one. I've loved the Teldec recordings since I had them on vinyl, and am interested in the best possible transfer. I wish Warner would actually make this information available.
Prestoclassics sells the newer set as a lossless download, so if I want I can download one track and compare to see if it seems identical or not. But here's one clue. The track timings of the new and old sets match exactly, to the second. Usually if they remaster the timings change a little bit, just because they decide to include a second more silence at the end, of a movement, a different gap between movements, etc. Makes me suspect they are the same.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2019, 12:57:57 PM
No. The one I used to have is this one
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71AXMguljCL._SL1141_.jpg)
I've dipped into the bottom one, and on the whole I think I prefer the Teldec performances, but I may change my mind about that: I doubt it but I haven't given it enough time to feel confident.
(I bet someone will tell me that the top one hasn't got any remastering! ??? That would be typical of me.)
Anyway, now you've got me intrigued about the ABQ Bartok. :(
I'm quite sure that one is effectively the same as my brown cover one. They both have the Teldec logo and would have been released around the same time, before they Warner umbrella descended on them.
Yes, I have the older brown cover issue. The red one seems merely a more recent issue of the same (1970s) recordings. I am not sure they even did a new remastering (or does the cover claim so?) The black Teldec box contains again the same recordings. As you can see they did not record that much for Teldec (I have all of them separately, except for the Schubert disc).
I did see a claim in an amazon review that the black box has been remastered and improved compared to earlier release. The question, what earlier release? I also had at least one CD that looked like this:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dm%2BWDX1fL.jpg)
Maybe it was remastered from the earliest release, since the older collection, or maybe it was never remastered at all and it is just his imagination. ::)
The one I have real affection for is this:
(https://ucarecdn.audiogon.com/4a58f725-40e2-45e6-93e8-f8e1370162aa/-/scale_crop/840x630/center/-/quality/lightest/)
which I had back in the day.
The brown and red are earlier than black box with all the Teldec. I found the sound always good enough in isolation but I am not very picky about these things. In earlier years I replaced about 3 or 4 somewhat historical (all 50s or early 60s) recordings with more recent masterings: Callas/De Sabata Tosca, Brahms Requiem and Fidelio with Klemperer.
I gave up on comparison remasterings after several frustrating comparison sessions. Once I agreed with an audiophile on a pretty good system (don't remember the details) that the Living Stereo CD issue of the Brahms VC actually sounded inferior to a cheaper RCA disc of the same. And I remember comparing Furtwängler's Haydn #88 in two issues and for my life could not decide which one I preferred. (I heard small differences, but could not decide which one sounded better).
And from the late 60s onwards the differences are for me usually too small to matter, so I stick either with what I have or I decide according to price or coupling, regardless of older or more recent remasterings.
I'm sure the black is better than the red! (NB reference to Stendhal in there)
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2019, 01:49:52 PM
I'm sure the black is better than the red! (NB reference to Stendhal in there)
Maybe I'll spend a buck or two and download one track lossless from Prestoclassical and see if I notice an improvement.
Usually I find very little difference, except when comparing to a master made in the 1980's (when the converters they were using had limitations). If they're still using the original CD masters (from the individual CD cover I posted) those would be 1980's masters and there could be room for improvement.
Yep, I haven't kept the red to double check, but if there isn't a clear difference I will eat my hat.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 13, 2019, 01:58:50 PM
Yep, I haven't kept the red to double check, but if there isn't a clear difference I will eat my hat.
Keep in mind I don't have your fancy class-A amp! I'm coping with bourgeois Marantz hardware. :'(
If you have a secure ripper (preferably one that references the online AccurateRip database, but that's not essential) you can just rip a track off each version and compare the reporting. If the 8-character CRC is identical for each rip, there has been no remastering. If the CRCs are not identical, that doesn't really prove anything, but it does mean that remastering is at least a possibility.
It's common for example to rip a CD from a newly-issued box set and find that the CRC is identical to the original single issue from 30 years ago.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 13, 2019, 02:01:46 PM
Keep in mind I don't have your fancy class-A amp! I'm coping with bourgeois Marantz hardware. :'(
You will hear the difference, here's a review which conclusively proves I was, once again, right
Quote from: T Beers here https://www.amazon.com/Alban-Berg-Quartett-Wolfgang-Mozart/dp/B0019DM7Y4As marvelous as the later Alban Berg Quartet (ABQ, for short) became, I am still partial to the early 1970s recordings made by the original ABQ members for Teldec. All those recordings are collected in this set which, sad to say, becomes another bittersweet ABQ commemorative now that the group has decided to disband. Anyway, the original ABQ immediately established itself as a technically formidable ensemble with these Teldec recordings of string quartets by Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Berg, Webern, and Urbanner. What becomes very apparent when you compare these recordings to later recordings by the ABQ on EMI is that the earlier ensemble produced a warmer, more typically Viennese sound. There is no lack of intellectual rigor in these Teldec performances, but the sound of the quartet, IMHO, is just more inviting. The discs in this handsome set include a complete survey of the Mozart 'Haydn' and 'Prussian' quartets and these performances can be directly compared with the later ABQ's superb -- but very different sounding -- EMI offerings. While I prefer these earlier recordings, and also prefer the performances of the three Brahms quartets over the later EMI set, I intend no disrespect toward those later recordings. My point is this: if you love the ABQ of those EMI recordings, do not by any means consider these earlier Teldec CDs to be mere duplicates; they stand on their own as marvelous documents of how special the ABQ was from its beginning. Also, I am happy to report that Teldec has remastered the original analog recordings and tamed the somewhat hard and shrill sound of earlier CD releases, while the program booklet features a fine retrospective essay on the ABQ by noted British critic Tully Potter. Final note: look at the asking price for this Teldec set, which is very nice indeed. So, "Hail and farewell, ABQ!" And thanks for these and so many other special memories of great music making.
I will investigate the pros and cons of the earlier and later recordings of the Mozart soon.
Finally, in London, after an appalling week of stormy, cold, damp, windy weather, the sun has come out . . . . :) :) :) :) :)
Quote from: aukhawk on March 14, 2019, 01:12:07 AM
If you have a secure ripper (preferably one that references the online AccurateRip database, but that's not essential) you can just rip a track off each version and compare the reporting. If the 8-character CRC is identical for each rip, there has been no remastering. If the CRCs are not identical, that doesn't really prove anything, but it does mean that remastering is at least a possibility.
It's common for example to rip a CD from a newly-issued box set and find that the CRC is identical to the original single issue from 30 years ago.
He mentioned he did not keep the old release so the comparison would not be possible.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 14, 2019, 04:45:28 AM
You will hear the difference, here's a review which conclusively proves I was, once again, right
Yes, I saw that review, but I would not consider an amazon reviewer to be an infallible authority on such matters. I noted that the reviewer didn't clearly state the Teldec claimed it to be a new master from original tapes in the linear notes. It could be that Teldec just applied a little equalization to its existing master. If they remastered it, why don't the idiots mention that fact on the packaging? Anyway, I'm tempted to get it to hear for myself. Those recordings are important to me.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 14, 2019, 11:40:17 PM
why don't the idiots mention that fact on the packaging?
I know, I had exactly the same thought yesterday.
Listening to Guarneri Quartet on Philips (CD borrowed from a friend and I have to return it today). I really like the recorded sound. With headphones the sound is very good when I use -8 dB crossfeed. Without crossfeed headphone sound a bit claustrophobic, but relaxes and opens up nicely with crossfeed.
Comparing this to my Kodály Quartet disc and the character of music is surprisingly different. Kodály Quartet sounds distant and meditative in comparison. The Naxos disc also has worse spatiality, but sounds reasonable with about -4 dB crossfeed.
I like the Philips disc, but sadly seems OOP. So, that's that...
The whole Guarneri (i.e. the later Philips cycle) was also on Brilliant, but this one is oop by now, too. There is another reissue of the complete set on eloquence and this is probably the cheapest option.
ASIN: B000O78KR4
Quote from: Jo498 on March 26, 2019, 05:57:19 AM
The whole Guarneri (i.e. the later Philips cycle) was also on Brilliant, but this one is oop by now, too. There is another reissue of the complete set on eloquence and this is probably the cheapest option.
ASIN: B000O78KR4
Thanks! Yeah I figured the Brilliant set out myself. Also, Amazon.de has the original disc.
There is another issue I did not mention because it is even more obscure. It's the one I have, inherited or grabbed in a bundle of used discs, I don't remember exactly), namely a cardboard double disc set with op.74/131 and 127/135, apparently a special issue for the German mailorder Zweitausendeins. Will listen to it later tonight.
Quote from: 71 dB on March 26, 2019, 03:57:35 AM
Listening to Guarneri Quartet on Philips (CD borrowed from a friend and I have to return it today). I really like the recorded sound. .
I like the Philips disc, but sadly seems OOP. So, that's that...
I can get it through Qobuz and I agree it sounds very good in the fugue, I haven't heard the rest yet. Thanks for mentioning it.
I've got a pretty good op 131 from Diotima Quartet. Does anyone know where I could have got it from? Honestly, Brooklyn Rider and Diotima are proving to be very rewarding in this music.
I'm sure I got hold of it after I saw it mentioned here, maybe by
@amw