GMG Classical Music Forum

Quote from: Sammy on March 17, 2018, 03:05:26 AM

Cato - give it another shot; I have faith in you.  Also, copy and paste instead of using "Quote".

Quote from: Mahlerian on March 17, 2018, 05:22:04 AM
I think this is correct?

Johann Sebastian Bach - 7
Béla Bartók - 0
Ludwig van Beethoven - 13
Pierre Boulez - 7
Johannes Brahms - 3
Anton Bruckner - 5 
Elliott Carter - 2
Frédéric Chopin - 0
Claude Debussy - 7
Josquin Des Prez - 0

Antonín Dvorák - 0
Joseph Haydn - 6
Charles Ives - 0
Leoš Janáček - 10
György Ligeti - 2
Gustav Mahler - 8 (+3)
Bohuslav Martinů - 0
Claudio Monteverdi - 7
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - 7 (+2)
Carl Nielsen - 0

Sergei Prokofiev - 0
Maurice Ravel - 5
Arnold Schoenberg - 9 (+5)
Franz Schubert - 1
Robert Schumann - 0
Dmitri Shostakovich - 3
Jean Sibelius - 10
Igor Stravinsky - 5
Ralph Vaughan Williams - 3
Richard Wagner - 10

Quote from: ritter on March 17, 2018, 05:34:48 AM
Okay then, to simplify this and avoid further confusion, I propose the following additional rules:

- Any poster who does not vote for Wagner or Boulez is automatically disqualified.
- Any composer whose score surpasses  that of Wagner, Boulez or Debussy , is automatically disqualified.
- Any poster who disagrees with these rules is automatically disqualified.

All for the sake of making the game easier for all, I insist. No need to thank me, guys.  ;)

;D ;D ;D

Quote from: ritter on March 17, 2018, 05:34:48 AM
Okay then, to simplify this and avoid further confusion, I propose the following additional rules:

- Any poster who does not vote for Wagner or Boulez is automatically disqualified.
- Any composer whose score surpasses  that of Wagner, Boulez or Debussy , is automatically disqualified.
- Any poster who disagrees with these rules is automatically disqualified.

All for the sake of making the game easier for all, I insist. No need to thank me, guys.  ;)

;D ;D ;D

Quote from: ritter on March 17, 2018, 05:34:48 AM
Okay then, to simplify this and avoid further confusion, I propose the following additional rules:

- Any poster who does not vote for Wagner or Boulez is automatically disqualified.
- Any composer whose score surpasses  that of Wagner, Boulez or Debussy , is automatically disqualified.
- Any poster who disagrees with these rules is automatically disqualified.

All for the sake of making the game easier for all, I insist. No need to thank me, guys.  ;)

;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2018, 06:14:32 AM
Johann Sebastian Bach - 7
Béla Bartók - 0
Ludwig van Beethoven - 13
Pierre Boulez - 12
Johannes Brahms - 3
Anton Bruckner - 5 
Elliott Carter - 2
Frédéric Chopin - 0
Claude Debussy - 7
Josquin Des Prez - 0

Antonín Dvorák - 0
Joseph Haydn - 11 (+5)
Charles Ives - 0
Leoš Janáček - 10
György Ligeti - 5 (+3)
Gustav Mahler - 8
Bohuslav Martinů - 0
Claudio Monteverdi - 7
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - 12 (+5)
Carl Nielsen - 0

Sergei Prokofiev - 0
Maurice Ravel - 5
Arnold Schoenberg - 9
Franz Schubert - 1
Robert Schumann - 0
Dmitri Shostakovich - 3
Jean Sibelius - 10
Igor Stravinsky - 5
Ralph Vaughan Williams - 3
Richard Wagner - 12

Quote from: André on March 17, 2018, 08:02:02 AM
Can we vote more than once for the same composer ?

Quote from: Sammy on March 17, 2018, 09:48:17 AMI went to sleep for a few hours and woke to find that Mahlerian fixed a big mess - a big thanks to the Fixer.

Quote from: Marcabru on March 17, 2018, 04:00:45 PM
I think Mahler should have 5 more votes than are showing.  GioCar voted 5 for Mahler but did not increase his total from 5 to 10.  From then on people just copied the list and Mahler was never given his 5 votes.  But until Sammy confirms this I will use the last posted list.

Quote from: jessop on March 17, 2018, 05:08:59 PM
I am glad Chopin is getting the love he deserves :)

Quote from: Sammy on March 17, 2018, 07:56:48 PM
Feeling sorry for Chopin.  Some of his piano works are among my favorites.  Given that music with an orchestra is much more popular than solo piano works, Chopin doesn't get the recognition he's earned.
Having said the above, I can't see myself giving him any votes when I have Bach, Mahler and a few others available.  Our list is highly competitive.

Quote from: Sammy on March 17, 2018, 04:38:19 PM
Everything is fine.  GioCar just neglected to delete the (+5) that I gave to Mahler.  If you look at his full response, you'll see that he used all his 10 points on other composers.  Neglecting to delete the parentheses happens a lot, but I'm used to it and it does no harm to the point totals.  Of course, I'd like it to never occur.

Quote from: jessop on March 17, 2018, 08:22:28 PM
Well, honestly I think Chopin is just as good and just as important as composers like Mertz, Regondi and other composers who wrote almost exclusively for salon performances. Terrific music, but such a different world from concert and operatic repertoire we enjoy today, I agree with you. I do have just one grudge against Chopin, and it's based on how he directly benefitted primarily off the hard work of women like Szymanowska and those who ran salons he performed in and he pretty much based his career as a composer and pianist on other people's innovations. A pretty yucky thing to do, and he did it more than anyone else. He wrote good music though, no matter how overrated it is, so at least there is that.

Quote from: Florestan on March 18, 2018, 01:18:48 AM
I'm done here. I honestly can't participate anymore in a thread where Chopin is trashed in such ignorant, clueless and ill willed manner. Good bye, gentlemen, and have fun.

Quote from: North Star on March 17, 2018, 11:52:57 PM
There aren't many artists who didn't base their work on earlier innovations, and I fail to see the harm in that - even if they happened to do so in a way that treated women as equals of men. But speaking of yucky things Chopin (George Sand must have been appalled) did is a bit rich when you vote for Wagner. And Chopin seems to be doing alright in bigger (modern) concert halls too thanks to the modern piano, though in symphony concerts his presence is pretty much limited to the two piano concertos, of course. So the harmonic developments in the Mazurkas for example are something that can be found in other contemporary salon music too? And the Etudes are not a significant development towards the tone poems for piano that Liszt, Rakhmaninov, Ravel etc would write? And did someone else write standalone scherzos before Chopin?

Quote from: Sammy on March 18, 2018, 02:43:07 AM
I hope you reconsider.

QuoteJust one member trashed Chopin.

Quote from: jessop on March 18, 2018, 02:48:16 AM
His music is wonderful, harmonic development etc. to which you refer is groundbreaking and influential. Probably my tongue in cheek comment was a bit too provocative for some! ;D

Quote from: Florestan on March 18, 2018, 03:58:46 AM
....
I'm back in.

Quote from: Florestan on March 18, 2018, 03:58:46 AMThat one comment really got on my nerves big time. Kudos to you and North Star for redressing the balance.

I'm back in.

Quote from: Sammy on March 18, 2018, 04:24:03 AM
Welcome back!!

Quote from: North Star on March 18, 2018, 04:03:05 AM
Too much tongue and too much cheek, I suspect.  :P

Quote from: Cato on March 18, 2018, 05:15:51 AM
Interesting: Mahler, 3-way tie among Bruckner, Boulez, and Wagner, then Beethoven and Haydn tied!  8)

Things to contemplate!

Quote from: Crudblud on March 18, 2018, 06:35:38 AM
I'm using Mahlerian's list, since the other one seems to be missing votes. Possibly taken from an earlier page by mistake?

Quote from: Mahlerian on March 18, 2018, 06:36:29 AM
I made my own mistake, which I only just corrected.  Bach should be at 19, not 17.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2018, 06:30:33 AM
It got you again, Scarpia... :-\

8)

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 18, 2018, 06:50:34 AM
Clearly I lack the competence required to participate.  :-[

Quote from: Sammy on March 18, 2018, 07:34:24 PM
I'm going with Jeffrey's statement that he gave 5 composers 2 points each.  However, he raised Des Prez by 4 points and didn't raise Ligeti at all.

Corrected Board:

Johann Sebastian Bach - 21
Béla Bartók - 2
Ludwig van Beethoven - 26
Pierre Boulez - 22
Johannes Brahms - 27
Anton Bruckner - 19
Elliott Carter - 12
Frédéric Chopin - 13
Claude Debussy - 19
Josquin Des Prez - 6

Antonín Dvorák - 18
Joseph Haydn - 21
Charles Ives - 0
Leoš Janáček - 15
György Ligeti - 11
Gustav Mahler - 28
Bohuslav Martinů - 2
Claudio Monteverdi - 14
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - 21
Carl Nielsen - 2

Sergei Prokofiev - 2
Maurice Ravel - 15
Arnold Schoenberg - 19
Franz Schubert - 8
Robert Schumann - 5
Dmitri Shostakovich - 25
Jean Sibelius - 24
Igor Stravinsky - 14
Ralph Vaughan Williams -10
Richard Wagner - 19

Note - I'm not agreeable to how Jeffrey handled his voting, doing without the parentheses and the content within.  For future reference, anyone voting in that manner will find his/her votes cancelled out.

Quote from: ritter on March 18, 2018, 11:31:48 PM
Good day, Andrei!

Quote from: Florestan on March 19, 2018, 01:54:37 AM
Good day, Rafael!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 19, 2018, 03:15:22 AM
Glad to see you have reconsidered!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2018, 04:07:09 AM
Johann Sebastian Bach - 26
Béla Bartók - 2
Ludwig van Beethoven - 26
Pierre Boulez - 24
Johannes Brahms - 32
Anton Bruckner - 24 (+5)
Elliott Carter - 12
Frédéric Chopin - 13
Claude Debussy - 24
Josquin Des Prez - 12

Antonín Dvorák - 18
Joseph Haydn - 31 (+5)
Charles Ives - 5 (+5)
Leoš Janáček - 20
György Ligeti - 11
Gustav Mahler - 33
Bohuslav Martinů - 2
Claudio Monteverdi - 16
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - 31 (+5)
Carl Nielsen - 2

Sergei Prokofiev - 3
Maurice Ravel - 20
Arnold Schoenberg - 22
Franz Schubert - 13
Robert Schumann - 5
Dmitri Shostakovich - 28
Jean Sibelius - 29
Igor Stravinsky - 20
Ralph Vaughan Williams -10
Richard Wagner - 26

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 19, 2018, 06:12:22 AM
I like your thinking, Crudblud. 8)

Quote from: Crudblud on March 19, 2018, 09:31:31 AM
Together we can take RavStrav all the way to the final!

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 19, 2018, 10:36:11 AM
I will say there are some surprises among those composers still in the single digits...

Quote from: André on March 19, 2018, 05:36:40 PM
The plot thickens... :P

Quote from: André on March 20, 2018, 09:00:53 AM
I could very well live with the current list of top 5 composers:

Haydn 72
Mahler 58
Mozart 56
Brahms 52
Bach 44

Although I'd replace Mahler with Beethoven or Bruckner, but you can't have everything  :P

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2018, 09:16:30 AM
Roger that: replace Mahler with Beethoven and Bach with Dvorak and I'm good to go.

Quote from: André on March 20, 2018, 09:00:53 AM
I could very well live with the current list of top 5 composers:

Haydn 72
Mahler 58
Mozart 56
Brahms 52
Bach 44

Although I'd replace Mahler with Beethoven or Bruckner, but you can't have everything  :P

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2018, 09:16:30 AM
Roger that: replace Mahler with Beethoven and Bach with Dvorak and I'm good to go.  :)

8)

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 20, 2018, 09:41:03 AM
Yes, and I've got the axe that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree, although I had to replace the head twice and the handle three times...

Quote from: Sammy on March 20, 2018, 09:44:42 AM
Jessop in reply #142 gave Schoenberg 2 points but lowered the total by 1 point.  That's a 3 point reduction, so please give Schoenberg 44 points - thanks.

Quote from: GioCar on March 21, 2018, 12:02:31 AM
No love for Franz here...poor Schwammerl  :(

Quote from: André on March 21, 2018, 04:36:23 AM
Johann Sebastian Bach - 54 (+3)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2018, 03:19:24 PM
A new day in Germany

Quote from: Sammy on March 21, 2018, 10:09:12 PM
After 10 pages of voting, Franz Joseph Haydn is our favorite composer!!

The Top Ten GMG Composers:

1.  Joseph Haydn
2.  Gustav Mahler
3.  Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
4.  Johannes Brahms
5.  Johann Sebastian Bach
5.  Arnold Schoenberg
7.  Anton Bruckner
8.  Dmitri Shostakovich
9.  Jean Sibelius
10. Maurice Ravel

I hope that one or more of your favored composers made the top ten. 

Quote from: Sammy on March 21, 2018, 10:09:12 PM
After 10 pages of voting, Franz Joseph Haydn is our favorite composer!!

The Top Ten GMG Composers:

1.  Joseph Haydn
2.  Gustav Mahler
3.  Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
4.  Johannes Brahms
5.  Johann Sebastian Bach
5.  Arnold Schoenberg
7.  Anton Bruckner
8.  Dmitri Shostakovich
9.  Jean Sibelius
10. Maurice Ravel

I hope that one or more of your favored composers made the top ten.  Thanks much for voting!!  There will be a next game; don't know what or when.  If you have any suggestions, let me know.

Quote from: North Star on March 22, 2018, 04:37:54 AM
a pretty heavy emphasis on symphonists and German speakers.

Quote from: Sammy on March 21, 2018, 10:09:12 PM
After 10 pages of voting, Franz Joseph Haydn is our favorite composer!!

The Top Ten GMG Composers:

1.  Joseph Haydn
2.  Gustav Mahler
3.  Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
4.  Johannes Brahms
5.  Johann Sebastian Bach
5.  Arnold Schoenberg
7.  Anton Bruckner
8.  Dmitri Shostakovich
9.  Jean Sibelius
10. Maurice Ravel

I hope that one or more of your favored composers made the top ten.  Thanks much for voting!!  There will be a next game; don't know what or when.  If you have any suggestions, let me know.

Quote from: Cato on March 22, 2018, 04:52:48 AM
  0:) BRUCKNER  0:)  MAHLER  0:)  SCHOENBERG  0:)  in the top ten sounds fair to me!

One curiosity: used-car salesman Dick Wagner  ???  is missing!  ;)

Quote from: Florestan on March 22, 2018, 04:45:20 AM
Hasn't this been a GMG trademark since forever?  :laugh:

Two out of the first three, though, have a very large body of chamber and vocal / operatic music in their oeuvre, and their music is more cosmopolitan than "Germanic". I'd say the balance is more than redressed.

Quote from: North Star on March 22, 2018, 05:16:26 AM
So is Beethoven - he was clearly too obvious a choice for everyone.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 22, 2018, 05:27:29 AM
MN Dave would fume!

Quote from: Sammy on March 21, 2018, 10:09:12 PM
After 10 pages of voting, Franz Joseph Haydn is our favorite composer!!

The Top Ten GMG Composers:

1.  Joseph Haydn
2.  Gustav Mahler
3.  Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
4.  Johannes Brahms
5.  Johann Sebastian Bach
5.  Arnold Schoenberg
7.  Anton Bruckner
8.  Dmitri Shostakovich
9.  Jean Sibelius
10. Maurice Ravel

I hope that one or more of your favored composers made the top ten.  Thanks much for voting!!  There will be a next game; don't know what or when.  If you have any suggestions, let me know.

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 22, 2018, 06:24:56 AM
Haydn first? It's rigged, rigged, I tell ya'. :)

Quote from: Papy Oli on March 22, 2018, 05:48:30 AM
That's ok, Beethoven is number 1, 3, 6, 7 and 10 in the Shed  0:)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 22, 2018, 06:31:13 AM
Obviously a conspiracy fomented by the Haydnistas  8)

Sarge

Quote from: Brian on March 22, 2018, 06:22:59 AM

Where... is Beethoven?

Quote from: Cato on March 22, 2018, 06:41:53 AM
I thought he was a shoo-in, and so gave some points to Dvorak and Ives.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 22, 2018, 06:43:02 AM
I had every confidence in the Haydnistas, so I concentrated on Schoenberg

Quote from: Cato on March 22, 2018, 06:41:53 AM
Perhaps Beethoven floats above such things, ineffable, intangible, circumcomposing  ???  the Universe with his music!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 22, 2018, 06:43:02 AM
I had every confidence in the Haydnistas, so I concentrated on Schoenberg and (less successfully) Stravinsky, e.g.

Quote from: Mahlerian on March 22, 2018, 06:51:14 AM
This, and not a preference per se, is why I voted so little for Bach, Mahler, or Mozart.  They seemed fully able to survive on their own.  Not like poor Monteverdi.  :(

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 22, 2018, 06:24:56 AM
Haydn first? It's rigged, rigged, I tell ya'. :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2018, 07:03:13 AM
I feel your pain. There were others I would have liked to vote for (Schubert & Dvorak, for example), but I feared that if I split up my votes, then my main ones would fail. Sammy makes some hard choices for us, but I guess that's what makes the game interestingly strategic. :)

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 07:34:03 AM
Don't forget that all of us determined the list of 30 composers.  The only thing I did on my own was to set up the infrastructure.

Quote from: Marcabru on March 22, 2018, 07:50:33 AM
My only complaint is how you jumped to end the game by voting for Haydn, when all your other votes were for Bach and Mahler.  I am sure someone would have eventually voted for Haydn but in the meantime Debussy might have gotten in instead of Ravel.

But this is all senseless quibbling by me.   :-[   It was a fun game and even though I would have preferred a slightly differnt outcome, the list is certainly representative of the taste among the members of this forum.

Quote from: North Star on March 22, 2018, 07:53:40 AM
Sammy's other votes changed nothing in the rankings. If he hadn't voted, someone else might have voted but possibly not to get Debussy there.

Quote from: Marcabru on March 22, 2018, 07:50:33 AM
My only complaint is how you jumped to end the game by voting for Haydn, when all your other votes were for Bach and Mahler.  I am sure someone would have eventually voted for Haydn but in the meantime Debussy might have gotten in instead of Ravel.

Quote from: Marcabru on March 22, 2018, 07:50:33 AM
My only complaint is how you jumped to end the game by voting for Haydn, when all your other votes were for Bach and Mahler.  I am sure someone would have eventually voted for Haydn but in the meantime Debussy might have gotten in instead of Ravel.

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 08:13:55 AM
I did it all for Bach, wanting to throw another 5 points his way as the game ended.  I did the best I could for my main man by using the strategy that would give him the highest ranking possible.
Essentially, I made sure that there was no "meantime".  I'm not one of the brightest bulbs on the street, but I know how to play a game and maximize my influence over the desired outcomes.

I trust that none of you simply vote for your favored entries and leave it at that.  Strategy makes playing these games much more interesting.

Quote from: Marcabru on March 22, 2018, 08:16:10 AM
Fair enough.  I am really looking forward to the new choral game.

Quote from: André on March 22, 2018, 08:22:58 AM
Where's the new game ?

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 08:13:55 AM
I trust that none of you simply vote for your favored entries and leave it at that.  Strategy makes playing these games much more interesting.

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 08:13:55 AM
I trust that none of you simply vote for your favored entries and leave it at that.  Strategy makes playing these games much more interesting.

Quote from: Wanderer on March 22, 2018, 08:39:42 AM
I disagree. "Strategy" makes "playing" these "games" much more dishonest. "Simply vote for your favoured entries and leave it at that" should actually be the modus operandi for the results to be genuine and truly representative of musical taste rather than manipulation.

Quote from: Wanderer on March 22, 2018, 08:39:42 AM
I disagree. "Strategy" makes "playing" these "games" much more dishonest. "Simply vote for your favoured entries and leave it at that" should actually be the modus operandi for the results to be genuine and truly representative of musical taste rather than manipulation.

Quote from: Crudblud on March 22, 2018, 09:11:28 AM
I feel like it would have been a much closer competition if we'd had a lower maximum award, say three points instead of five, being forced to diversify more per round of voting. It doesn't really matter, but the way everything quickly skewed in extreme favour of one or two composers on the basis of a couple of people routinely giving out fives made it less exciting in my opinion. I should mention that I've never played one of these before, so "less exciting" is relative to how I imagine a closer race would've been.

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 07:34:03 AM
Don't forget that all of us determined the list of 30 composers.  The only thing I did on my own was to set up the infrastructure.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2018, 10:18:39 AM
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean the 'contestants', I meant how to divide up our points to achieve maximum effect with them. You're right, we put the choices there. Y'all may recall I made a crack about Beethoven being late to the game, and he was also underrated in the results. Should he have been Top 5 material? I think so, but like many others, I didn't vote for him because I figured everyone else would. :-\

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 08:53:53 AM
A dissent from a non-voter.  It's just as well you don't play the game - game spirit seems to elude you.  Winning while having fun is what it's all about.

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 08:53:53 AM
Your preference only makes sense for polls.

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 08:53:53 AM
Anti-gamers like to cast shade, but it's much better to cast votes.

Quote from: Wanderer on March 22, 2018, 11:08:02 AM
"Game spirit" does not consist only by what you deem to be fun. Some people find manipulation of the sort you seem to imply distasteful or undesirable and one can be strategic without stooping to reality-TV tactics. And people still can just play for fun, without the need to "win".  $:)

False. It's just that my preference does not need to be the same as your preference.

Is this a quote from William McGonagall?

Quote from: Wanderer on March 22, 2018, 11:08:02 AMIs this a quote from William McGonagall?

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 22, 2018, 11:14:16 AM
It is a game whose objective is to advance your favorite composer. The "manipulation" which you find "distasteful" is the very essence of a "game," choosing your moves with a view to how they interact the likely response of other participants. By your definition, if I was playing checkers it would be "manipulative" to do anything but move my pieces uniformly forward without regard to moves of the other player.

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 11:25:33 AM
No, it's a quote from Sammy Satz.  Why don't you start up your own games with your own rules?  I'll even participate in it without criticizing your mode of operation.

Quote from: Wanderer on March 22, 2018, 11:34:26 AM
It's one thing being strategic and another one being manipulative. It's the attitude of some "players" that I find disagreeable, not the concept of the "game" itself which, as I mentioned, can be fun in its own way - and without any need to stoop to the level of reality-TV tactics. You keep your view and I'm keeping mine. And, as far as I'm concerned, analogies with actual games do not apply here.

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 22, 2018, 11:40:03 AM
As I understand it, it is an actual game. :)

Quote from: Wanderer on March 22, 2018, 11:38:03 AM
I hope you don't take it personally. Aren't we all here to have fun?

Quote from: Sammy on March 22, 2018, 11:47:21 AM
I think you're here to do a little derailing of the game.