GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Don on April 21, 2007, 12:56:57 PM

Title: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Don on April 21, 2007, 12:56:57 PM
I'm on the hunt for some recordings of Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony.  I currently have Svetlanov, Abravanel and Jurowski.  Have heard great things about the Muti, Chailly and Ashkenazy.

How about:

Toscanini (which one?)
Kletzki/Testament
Silvestri/BBC and Testament
Thomas/Sony
Jansons/Chandos
Masur/Elatus
Leppard/Koss
Goosens/Everest
Jordania/Angelok

Am I missing any names?
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: mahlertitan on April 21, 2007, 01:04:31 PM
I will argue with you that Bizet's "Roma" symphony is more tuneful than Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Que on April 21, 2007, 01:16:16 PM
Am I missing any names?

Markevitch!

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K8WCZFPZL._AA240_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 21, 2007, 01:21:02 PM
I will argue with you that Bizet's "Roma" symphony is more tuneful than Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony.

Yeah but Bizet doesn't pack a punch like T.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Brewski on April 21, 2007, 01:22:52 PM
I have Muti, Chailly and Jansons and love them all, but I'm sure there are other fine versions.  I haven't heard any of these in quite some time so I couldn't do an "A-B-C" comparison at the moment, but I do recall being quite satisfied with each.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Scott on April 21, 2007, 01:23:51 PM
I'm on the hunt for some recordings of Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony.  I currently have Svetlanov, Abravanel and Jurowski.  Have heard great things about the Muti, Chailly and Ashkenazy.

I particularly like the Chailly, less so Muti. Don't know Ashkenazy but my guess is that his would be good, too.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: SimonGodders on April 21, 2007, 01:28:51 PM
I have Pletnev/RNO - very powerful and very well recorded. Demonstration class methinks.
 ;)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: SimonGodders on April 21, 2007, 01:36:32 PM
Just put it on now, sounds absolutely glorious!
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Don on April 21, 2007, 02:09:46 PM
I will argue with you that Bizet's "Roma" symphony is more tuneful than Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony.

I have no interest in arguing or any current interest in Bizet.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Rabin_Fan on April 21, 2007, 03:19:05 PM
I have Pletnev/RNO - very powerful and very well recorded. Demonstration class methinks.
 ;)

I somehow do not like Pletnev as a musician - his style is Pollini-like, chiselled and not warm - sounds like he does not warmly embrace the music that he is playing.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: SimonGodders on April 21, 2007, 11:16:13 PM
I agree, but do like the 'chiselled' types (Pollini etc.). I would say however that I don't think this is your typical Pletnev, with shades more romance and warmth than other recordings.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: hautbois on April 23, 2007, 10:02:33 AM
I own Muti/Philharmonia and has no other recording to compare. I think it is great although Muti seemed to always blur a lot of things up, at least from my experience of him on record. (E.g. I think he has one of the worst Resphigis ever with the Philadelphia.)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: val on April 26, 2007, 12:57:30 AM
My preferred version is the one of Muti with the Philharmonia, with a perfect articulation, splendid dynamic and avoiding too much "pathos".

I would prefer Kletzki if he didn't cut parts of the work.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Rabin_Fan on April 26, 2007, 02:18:12 AM
Howard Ng,

Where did you manage to get Muti's Manfred? It is OOP, unless it is from the Brilliant Classics box. Regards - RF
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: hautbois on April 26, 2007, 09:07:39 AM
2nd hand, from a KL based violinist who used to play in the CBSO.

Regards,
Howard
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 26, 2007, 09:19:50 AM
I particularly like the Chailly, less so Muti. Don't know Ashkenazy but my guess is that his would be good, too.

I am not in love with Chailly. Too much (especially during the middle of the first movement) it sounds like he is on auto-pilot. Does pack a punch in the finale though.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: MishaK on April 26, 2007, 09:27:31 AM
Leppard/Koss

Is this with Indy SO? They made a number of excellent recordings (RVW Antartica, Schubert 3 & Grand Duo, Schumann etc.). Vastly underrated orchestra and conductor. Has anyone heard this Manfred?
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Rabin_Fan on April 26, 2007, 11:13:34 PM
2nd hand, from a KL based violinist who used to play in the CBSO.
Regards,
Howard

Very lucky - I should have grabbed it in a shop here but alas, did not do so. Is the violinist Malaysian - Ying Yuen, by any chance?
Lee
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: val on April 27, 2007, 12:21:06 AM
Quote
hautbois

2nd hand, from a KL based violinist who used to play in the CBSO.



The version I have of Muti with the Philharmonia is an EMI Classics edition from 1993 (the recording was made in 1982).
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: hautbois on April 28, 2007, 01:00:27 AM
Very lucky - I should have grabbed it in a shop here but alas, did not do so. Is the violinist Malaysian - Ying Yuen, by any chance?
Lee

Yes it is YY. He teaches at Sedaya College and i got it from him when i studied there. I will be leaving to the Yong Siew Toh Conservatory in August.  :)

Howard
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Rabin_Fan on April 28, 2007, 03:18:43 PM
What a small world! Are you going to the LSO Harding concerts? Maybe we can say hello there?
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Rabin_Fan on April 28, 2007, 03:35:24 PM
Howard - congrats to going to the YST Cons. My contact HP 7-302 1813.

Cheng Hooi
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Rabin_Fan on April 28, 2007, 03:36:50 PM
I take it Howard that you play both violin & oboe? Quite a feat if you can play both well.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: hautbois on April 28, 2007, 08:57:05 PM
Thankyou! Yes i am going to both concerts with Corgan. I only play oboe but YY coached us a few sessions when a studied an oboe quartet with 3 of the string students there. Ahhh...reeds trouble me enough.  ;D I'll give you call before the concert then. See you!

Howard
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Rabin_Fan on April 29, 2007, 02:20:31 AM
OK - a friend of Corgan as well. Corgan and I have exchanged some CDs - to great enjoyment so far.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Steve on April 29, 2007, 01:09:17 PM
I am not in love with Chailly. Too much (especially during the middle of the first movement) it sounds like he is on auto-pilot. Does pack a punch in the finale though.

As to the Chailly, I couldn't agree more. He's too polished for my taste.

I would like to lend my support to the Jansons. While I have other favourites for the other Tchaikowsky Symphonies, Jansons dramatic, emotional, and deliberate style works wonders here. His command is particularily evident in the final, Allegro con fuoco. The theme is fleshed out so organically, that there is a wonderful sense of unity with the other movements. His tender approach really works wonders as movement winds down into the final few measures. Instead of the usual jarring reentry of the orchestra after its pause, this felt so incredibly natural and unforced. It really is a beautiful recording.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on June 19, 2008, 05:24:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610Y3DKHJYL._SL160_SS160_.jpg)

I've just discovered Tchaikovsky's Mannfred Symphony on the above boxset.

I have it coming up at a concert next week so I thought I'd get familiar with it.

I was expecting a 'lesser' symphony [not a numbered symphony] and was very pleasently surprised.

This symphony is a gem! Inspired by Byron's writings and Berlioz' Fantastic Symphony this music is a wonderful discovery. Beautiful storytelling brought alive through glorious sound.

Any thoughts?

 :)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: jochanaan on June 19, 2008, 05:39:35 PM
Agree totally.  It's big, it's dramatic, it's--well, it's Tchaikovsky at his best. :D

I remember the time I got a very cheap set of Tchaikovsky symphonies on LP back in the 1970s.  Bad mistake!  The label was Everest, the recorded sound was inferior to intolerable, and the performances deserved no better, with one exception: a rare recording of Manfred with Sir Eugene Goossens leading the London Symphony.  That performance glittered and sparkled even though the sound was still intolerable.  (Well, the first three symphonies were done by Hans Swarowski, a Vienna Conservatory professor whose pupils included Zubin Mehta and Claudio Abbado, and the Vienna Symphony, who at least played with humility and high craft.  But the rest are better forgotten.)

On the other hand, there's a very fine 1970s Manfred with Ashkenazy leading the Philharmonia on Decca/London.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Renfield on June 19, 2008, 06:57:28 PM
I also had my first exposure to the Manfred yesterday (via Pletnev/RNO - DG), and I second the sentiment: a gem indeed! :D
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: dirkronk on June 19, 2008, 07:07:23 PM
I've read very good things about the Pletnev but haven't yet heard his. Still, several years (or is it decades now?) back I went through a pretty significant crush on Manfred. The outcome was a buying binge that left me with LP editions of Muti, Svetlanov, Markevitch and Toscanini--all of whom have great things to offer (Toscanini puts his own touches on the score apparently). I would heartily suggest listening to the first two in particular. On CD I have replicated the Markevitch and added Rozhdestvensky, but have only heard that version once, a while back. I also recently found a download of Silvestri with Philadelphia, live from the early 1960s, but haven't had a chance to listen to that one yet. Maybe it's time for me to reacquaint myself and reassess a few of these performances...
 ;)

Dirk
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Keemun on June 20, 2008, 05:17:10 AM
This symphony is a gem! Inspired by Byron's writings and Berlioz' Fantastic Symphony this music is a wonderful discovery. Beautiful storytelling brought alive through glorious sound.

Any thoughts?

 :)

I entirely agree!  For a while I ignorantly assumed it was a lesser symphony because it was not one of Tchaikovsky's numbered symphonies. :-\  I'm not sure where I got that idea; perhaps I thought it was a study symphony composed early in his career before he composed the real numbered symphonies.  As it turns out, it was composed during the height of his symphonic output - between his 4th and 5th symphonies. 
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Hector on June 20, 2008, 06:27:11 AM
Maazel/VPO/Decca but the recording sounds its age to my ears on the edition I have.

Trouble is that many of the older versions are cut, not that that may bother some, admittedly, especially as one of them is Toscanini!

Jurowski and Jansons but I haven't heard Pletnev which I would expect to be exceptional!
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: karlhenning on June 20, 2008, 07:55:11 AM
. . . not that that may bother some, admittedly, especially as one of them is Toscanini!

Sounds like two distinct counts of Botheration  $:)  ;D
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: vandermolen on June 20, 2008, 08:13:24 AM
I'm on the hunt for some recordings of Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony.  I currently have Svetlanov, Abravanel and Jurowski.  Have heard great things about the Muti, Chailly and Ashkenazy.

How about:

Toscanini (which one?)
Kletzki/Testament
Silvestri/BBC and Testament
Thomas/Sony
Jansons/Chandos
Masur/Elatus
Leppard/Koss
Goosens/Everest
Jordania/Angelok

Am I missing any names?

Goossens is excellent, with Sibelius's 'Tapiola'
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Marcel on October 13, 2008, 12:50:53 PM
Hi guys ! Are you aware, there is a new recording of Tchaikovsky's Manfred by V. Petrenko (Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra).

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/Images/cds/others/8.570568.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/feature/Tchaikovsky_Manfred_Symphony_CD.asp

The performance is excellent in my opinion. One of the very best recording of the piece.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Superhorn on October 14, 2008, 07:42:53 AM
  I have heard the Svetlanov, Markevitch, Previn, Muti recordings on LP and the Pletnev on CD, plus several on the radio. All have their virtues and I would not dismiss any out of hand.

   The old Toscanini/NBC recording has its admirers, but be warned; it has a massive cut in the last movement.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: karlhenning on October 14, 2008, 10:25:55 AM
   The old Toscanini/NBC recording has its admirers . . .

But no one we need pay any attention to, right?  ;)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Hector on October 16, 2008, 05:53:26 AM
Hi guys ! Are you aware, there is a new recording of Tchaikovsky's Manfred by V. Petrenko (Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra).

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/Images/cds/others/8.570568.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/feature/Tchaikovsky_Manfred_Symphony_CD.asp

The performance is excellent in my opinion. One of the very best recording of the piece.

Perhaps the Beeb will play it at the end of CD Review.

What the hell, it's cheap! ;D
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: vandermolen on October 16, 2008, 06:23:53 AM
I like the Goossens on Everest and its interestiong coupling, Tapiola.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Drasko on October 16, 2008, 07:23:51 AM
Could any of the mods correct spelling of Tchaikovsky's name in the thread title.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Brewski on October 16, 2008, 07:46:50 AM
Could any of the mods correct spelling of Tchaikovsky's name in the thread title.

Your wish is granted.  0:)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: flyingdutchman on October 18, 2008, 10:55:08 PM
I like the Goossens on Everest and its interestiong coupling, Tapiola.

Quite good, but it is cut.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 22, 2008, 06:32:59 PM
Not mentioned before, but worth auditioning should it reappear: the Utah Symphony under Maurice Abravanel. Low cut mastering, slightly distant ecording, but a beautiful and poetic account. Manfred is not all about orgies and stuff. I don't think Manfred has ever gotten a fully persuasive interpretation. I personally like it best of all among Tchaikovsky's symphonies, after the sixth.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Hector on October 23, 2008, 05:43:27 AM
Not mentioned before, but worth auditioning should it reappear: the Utah Symphony under Maurice Abravanel. Low cut mastering, slightly distant ecording, but a beautiful and poetic account. Manfred is not all about orgies and stuff. I don't think Manfred has ever gotten a fully persuasive interpretation. I personally like it best of all among Tchaikovsky's symphonies, after the sixth.

How many have you heard?

You are so wrong!
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2008, 01:33:34 PM
Quite good, but it is cut.

Didn't know that. Thanks.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Mark G. Simon on October 31, 2008, 02:22:09 PM
Quite good, but it is cut.

The Goosens on Everest is the first Manfred I ever heard (on LP). It is heavily cut in the 1st and 4th Movements, and there's a small cut in the 3rd.

Toscanini's is the 2nd Manfred I owned. Toscanini makes a major cut in the last movement, but in a different place than Goosens. I had to hop back and forth between discs to listen to it complete, which was really annoying.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Hector on November 04, 2008, 07:52:30 AM
The Goosens on Everest is the first Manfred I ever heard (on LP). It is heavily cut in the 1st and 4th Movements, and there's a small cut in the 3rd.

Toscanini's is the 2nd Manfred I owned. Toscanini makes a major cut in the last movement, but in a different place than Goosens. I had to hop back and forth between discs to listen to it complete, which was really annoying.

Toscanini, apparently, not only makes a devastating incision but recomposes some of it. Is this true?
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: karlhenning on November 04, 2008, 07:53:14 AM
Toscanini's is the 2nd Manfred I owned. Toscanini makes a major cut in the last movement, but in a different place than Goosens. I had to hop back and forth between discs to listen to it complete, which was really annoying.

That could have been a Steven Wright gag!
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Mark G. Simon on November 04, 2008, 11:28:50 AM
Toscanini, apparently, not only makes a devastating incision but recomposes some of it. Is this true?

As far as I can tell, Toscanini doctors up the orchestration in a couple of spots, but that's it.

The end of the the 1st movement in the Toscanini is one of the most exciting ever recorded. I could swear he added some percussion (like tam-tam) here, but I haven't checked the score. In any case it sounds like a major Hurricane passing through.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: pibodi on November 05, 2008, 12:23:42 PM
Hi, sirs!
There are ANOTHER version of Manfred:
Alexander Gauk.
Information on Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Alexander-Gauk-Tchaikovsky/dp/B0000065I2/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1225916540&sr=1-10

This is extremely rare CD. May be SOMEONE have this recording???????????
If yes, please, write me back!!!!!
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Bunny on November 08, 2008, 03:13:41 PM
Anyone know anything about the Jurowski/London PO Manfred?  I just saw a review of it at ClassicsToday and DH says, "Here is that "take no prisoners" performance that Manfred enthusiasts have been waiting for."   If anyone has heard this recording, I'd love to know what they think.

Here's the link to the review (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11963). 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tt9fFERwL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 08, 2008, 06:51:01 PM
Thanks, Bunny. I'll look for it!
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: DarkAngel on November 08, 2008, 08:22:24 PM
Bunny
I have a few Manfreds:
-Muti
-Pletnev
-Jansons
-Markevitch
-Toscanini
-Silvestri (BBC Legends)

My favorite however is the Jurowski, has monumental power and dramatic impact that the others can't quite match with very good sound.
This is the only CD I have by Jurowski so he was an unknown quantity for me, purchased this a couple years ago when we had a Manfred discussion at Head-Fi forum and MB told me I had to get this.........
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Que on November 09, 2008, 03:53:33 AM
Anyone know anything about the Jurowski/London PO Manfred?  I just saw a review of it at ClassicsToday and DH says, "Here is that "take no prisoners" performance that Manfred enthusiasts have been waiting for."   If anyone has heard this recording, I'd love to know what they think.

Here's the link to the review (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11963). 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tt9fFERwL._SS500_.jpg)

Interesting Bunny! Though the review is by the infamous "Hurwitzer", who continues to decline in my esteem.. ::)
He thinks there are "only three (previous) recordings worth mentioning" and then fails to mention Markevitch. Yeah, right. So far for "expert" opinion. :P 8)

Q
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Bunny on November 09, 2008, 08:03:27 AM
Well, I'm curious about this album.  Although DH frequently dislikes things that I like, I find that I don't very often dislike things that he does like so I find that very encouraging.  However, he loved Muti's Tchaikovsky cycle and I found that a bit bland -- or maybe I should say predictable?  In any event, Muti didn't put a foot wrong but it didn't really stir my emotions the way Tchaikovsky should.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Drasko on November 09, 2008, 09:32:42 AM
I have one Jurowski conducted Tchaikovsky disc, 3rd Suite on Pentatone. If I'd go by that probably wouldn't ever get another, proficient, competent, nicely played but interpretatively bland and coupled Stravinsky Divertimento is possibly worst I heard, completely devoid of any sense of rhythm and momentum (didn't thought possible with Stravinsky), limp as a dead squid.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Hector on November 11, 2008, 07:10:17 AM
Well, I'm curious about this album.  Although DH frequently dislikes things that I like, I find that I don't very often dislike things that he does like so I find that very encouraging.  However, he loved Muti's Tchaikovsky cycle and I found that a bit bland -- or maybe I should say predictable?  In any event, Muti didn't put a foot wrong but it didn't really stir my emotions the way Tchaikovsky should.

I am not so sure that I would go as far as Hurwitz but the performance is a fine one, recorded live and fairly cheap on the LPO's own label.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Brian on November 11, 2008, 07:59:24 AM
Well, I'm curious about this album.  Although DH frequently dislikes things that I like, I find that I don't very often dislike things that he does like so I find that very encouraging.  However, he loved Muti's Tchaikovsky cycle and I found that a bit bland -- or maybe I should say predictable?  In any event, Muti didn't put a foot wrong but it didn't really stir my emotions the way Tchaikovsky should.
This is a pretty excellent summation of the Muti recordings.

But if you guys think Hurwitz is crazy, wait 'til you encounter his French friend Christophe Huss, a one-man wrecking crew if I ever saw one.  :D
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Bunny on November 11, 2008, 01:15:11 PM
This is a pretty excellent summation of the Muti recordings.

But if you guys think Hurwitz is crazy, wait 'til you encounter his French friend Christophe Huss, a one-man wrecking crew if I ever saw one.  :D

I don't think Hurwitz is really certifiable.  Just a bit paranoid and very, very arrogant about his opinions.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 12, 2008, 07:35:20 PM
This is a pretty excellent summation of the Muti recordings.

But if you guys think Hurwitz is crazy, wait 'til you encounter his French friend Christophe Huss, a one-man wrecking crew if I ever saw one.  :D

You think so? I think merely - well, hurwitzian  :D. I heard him a few times on CBC's radio and he's not only knowledgeable but he backs up his comments with examples. Which of course goes for naught if he (or Hurwitz) has a game plan designed to prove his point.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Bunny on November 12, 2008, 09:36:11 PM
You think so? I think merely - well, hurwitzian  :D. I heard him a few times on CBC's radio and he's not only knowledgeable but he backs up his comments with examples. Which of course goes for naught if he (or Hurwitz) has a game plan designed to prove his point.

Yes, very knowledgeable, but also very arrogant.  There's no humility to temper his opinions which is his main flaw.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: knight66 on November 21, 2008, 12:11:52 AM
I cannot really explain how I can have listened to music for over 40 years, yet never heard a bar of Manfred. I have been reading this thread and a week ago bought a mag with a sampler disc on it because among other new issues, it had a movement from Manfred on it.

What a wonderful piece, full of energy, wonderful long melodies, memorable music. I have bought the new Naxos version; The Royal Liverpool Phil conducted by Vasily Petrenko. As no kind of expert on this piece, my recommendation really means nothing. To my ears it is excellent, clear sound, characterful woodwind, sweet strings and the conductor takes us on a journey, drama, sweep, drive and great lyricism.

Probably my find of the year in terms of music new to me.

Mike
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Marcel on November 21, 2008, 01:34:46 AM
I cannot really explain how I can have listened to music for over 40 years, yet never heard a bar of Manfred. I have been reading this thread and a week ago bought a mag with a sampler disc on it because among other new issues, it had a movement from Manfred on it.

What a wonderful piece, full of energy, wonderful long melodies, memorable music. I have bought the new Naxos version; The Royal Liverpool Phil conducted by Vasily Petrenko. As no kind of expert on this piece, my recommendation really means nothing. To my ears it is excellent, clear sound, characterful woodwind, sweet strings and the conductor takes us on a journey, drama, sweep, drive and great lyricism.

Probably my find of the year in terms of music new to me.

Mike

I can only agree with your opinion. I love Petrenko's Manfred.
Title: 1982 Muti/Philharmonia TCHAIKOVSKY - Manfred Symphony
Post by: Scion7 on March 14, 2012, 10:43:14 PM
       click image

(http://s17.postimage.org/4zuqnqh27/TCHAIKOVSKY_Manfred_Muti_Philharmonia_LP.jpg)

A major favorite.  EMI-Angel had gotten the message about the quality of their LP surfaces,
and this one - along with the Perlman/Beethoven Concerto - was very quiet.   Great record.

        from Gramophone July 1982

TCHAIKOVSKY. Manfred Symphony, Op. 58. Phil- harmonia Orchestra / Riccardo Muti. HMV digital (E) ASD4169; TCC-A5D4169.

The new HMV digital Manfred is magnificently recorded. This is one of a handful of digital records so far issued which must convince any listener of the potential of this new recording system. It is in almost every way finer than any of the available analogue comparisons, in a work that is gloriously responsive to ripely glowing string textures and rich brass sonorities. It is true that once or twice in fortissimo the trumpets are somewhat fierce, but overall the brass makes a marvellous effect and the strings sound gorgeous, whether playing pianissimo or with full-throated open tone in unison on the G string. Indeed, the physical thrill when they do this in Tchaikovsky's great unison melody which comes twice (at the end of both outer movements) is overwhelming, and when in the finale the climax is capped with cymbals the effect is electrifying. Direct comparison with the Ashkenazy/Decca version, recorded four years earlier, also in the Kingsway Hall— which by any normal standards offers first-class quality—emphasizes how remarkable is the body of Philharmonia string sound which Muti secures here.
Muti's is an epic reading, red-bloodedly powerful throughout. It is less subtle than Ashkenazy's, less Slavonic in feeling and atmosphere, with bold dramatic strokes to highlight moments of climax, as for instance with the entries of the Manfred motif in the central movements. Ashkenazy is appreciably lighter in his approach to the Scherzo, the effect more delicate in the outer sections, with the lyrical ardour of the lovely central melody less overtly sensuous (but the whole movement quite enchanting). Muti's Scherzo is demonstrably fast, crisply pointed, conveying a sense of exhilarating bravura, the lyricism of the central episode vigorously extrovert. Ashkenazy's Andante has a unique freshness, a flowing spontaneity which is naturally appealing. Muti's slow movement opens with a beautifully played and expressively flexible oboe solo, but the ravishing string response (one of Tchaikovsky's loveliest phrases) already brings a fair degree of intensity and throughout the movement Muti characterizes each change of mood and tempo strongly, with climaxes of great fervour. Ashkenazy's finale has tremendous pace and thrust; Muti is that bit broader but he is helped by both the weight and amplitude of the recording, and the superb response from the orchestra. Again, the physical effect of the sound on the listener—Tchaikovsky's Bacchanalian effects superbly telling—is tremendously compelling. After the opening furore has died down Muti creates another emotional peak when Tchaikovsky sinks into a mood of utter desolation (comparable with the Pathelique Symphony) until he makes a 'fresh start' with the fugato. The work's climax is thrilling indeed, admirably balancing weight with passion.
I have concentrated in my comparisons on Muti and Ashkenazy, because, it seems to me that these are the two versions that most Tchaikovskians will need to have. Muti's forcefulness and the superb demonstration qualities of the HMV recording (especially the finale) do not eclipse the incandescent memorability of Ashkenazy's record.
        ~I. M.


         It’s out on CD in two versions, both readily available on Amazon:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/90/1170190.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nCCua7orL._SL500_.jpg)


   from Gramophone February 1987 :

TCHAIKOVSKY. Manfred Symphony. Phil harmonia Orchestra / Riccardo Muti. EMI (D 0 CDC7 47412-2 (59 minutes). From ASD4169 (7/82).

One of EMI's earliest digital recordings, made in the Kingsway Hall, now emerges the more vividly on CD. It was in the demonstration class in its original LP format and the physical thrill of the strings playing the principal Manfred theme in full-throated open tone on the G string makes a fine effect at the end of the first movement and is even more electrifying in the Bacchanalian finale (with its affinity with Gounod's Faust at the organ entry). Muti's is an epic reading, red-bloodedly powerful throughout, with the scherzo fast and exhilarating---the lyricism of the central episode distinctly extrovert—the Andante comparably volatile, full of expressive fervour. The climax of the finale is superbly telling. Manfred is a flawed masterpiece, but Mutt makes a splendid case for it and the EMI engineering is very convincing. A classic Tchaikovsky transfer—a must for all this composer's a cionados.    ~I.M.



CD reissues point up Riccardo Muti’s early mastery
Complete Beethoven and Tchaikovsky symphonies are among the many major works in recordings from the 1970s and ‘80s  by the CSO’s music director, with the Philadelphia and Philharmonia Orchestras.
By Lawrence B. Johnson

Conductor Riccardo Muti’s distinctive gifts are richly certified in recordings. Three decades ago – before he commenced his long and often controversial directorship at La Scala Opera in Milan — Muti stood at the threshold of a 12-year tenure as music director of the Philadelphia Orchestra.
There, he succeeded the institutional figure of Eugene Ormandy, he of the vaunted Philadelphia sound. But Muti soon enough transmuted the Philadelphians into his own instrument, one that bore the imprimatur of an Italianate sensibility distinguished by a singing line and elegant instrumental (one might say vocal) balances.
In the dozen years that followed, the Muti-led Philadelphia Orchestra made a plethora of recordings that only added to the stature he’d gained as a young conductor of importance with London’s Philharmonia Orchestra immediately beforehand. EMI Classics has newly reissued many of Muti’s recordings with both orchestras, a series that ranges collectively from the complete symphonies of Beethoven, Schumann and Tchaikovsky to music of Berlioz, Mendelssohn and Prokofiev, among others. I’ve spent many rewarding hours with these rebundled recordings, all of which I first encountered and reviewed in their original releases.
Here are six of the EMI reissues that embrace the core orchestral repertoire and are well worth owning, living with and getting to know intimately.
 
Tchaikovsky: The Six Symphonies, “Manfred” Symphony, “Romeo and Juliet” Fantasy-Overture, “Francesca da Rimini,” “1812” Overture, Serenade for Strings, “Hamlet,” Suites from “Swan Lake” and “Sleeping Beauty,” Piano Concerto No. 1 with Andrei Gavrilov, piano. Philharmonia Orchestra (symphonies) and Philadelphia Orchestra. Seven CDs. To judge from these performances of the symphonies, recorded in the late 1970s before Muti took over the Philadelphia Orchestra, they might have been written by a Russian bred under Italian skies. The “singing” is seductive, the passion irresistible.
Title: Re: 1982 Muti/Philharmonia TCHAIKOVSKY - Manfred Symphony
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2012, 02:01:44 PM
[....]
It’s out on CD in two versions, both readily available on Amazon:
[....]

And part of the nicely priced symphony boxset of Brilliant Classics:

(http://i42.tinypic.com/j6jxqo.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Box-Pyotr-Ilyich/dp/B000BLI3TI/

http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Complete-Peter-Tschaikowsky/dp/B000B7VZTM/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Complete-Peter-Tschaikowsky/dp/B000B7VZTM/

http://www.amazon.de/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Complete-Peter-Tschaikowsky/dp/B000B7VZTM/
Title: Re: 1982 Muti/Philharmonia TCHAIKOVSKY - Manfred Symphony
Post by: Est.1965 on March 15, 2012, 02:15:08 PM
What is it that people find so appealing about this set?  Yes, it is beautifully played, from what I've heard (2,4,5), but there must be something I am missing..?

And part of the nicely priced symphony boxset of Brilliant Classics:

(http://i42.tinypic.com/j6jxqo.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Box-Pyotr-Ilyich/dp/B000BLI3TI/

http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Complete-Peter-Tschaikowsky/dp/B000B7VZTM/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Complete-Peter-Tschaikowsky/dp/B000B7VZTM/

http://www.amazon.de/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Complete-Peter-Tschaikowsky/dp/B000B7VZTM/

EDIT:
I should have read this:
It was in the demonstration class in its original LP format and the physical thrill of the strings playing the principal Manfred theme in full-throated open tone on the G string makes a fine effect at the end of the first movement and is even more electrifying in the Bacchanalian finale (with its affinity with Gounod's Faust at the organ entry). Muti's is an epic reading, red-bloodedly powerful throughout, with the scherzo fast and exhilarating---the lyricism of the central episode distinctly extrovert—the Andante comparably volatile, full of expressive fervour. The climax of the finale is superbly telling. Manfred is a flawed masterpiece, but Mutt makes a splendid case for it and the EMI engineering is very convincing. A classic Tchaikovsky transfer—a must for all this composer's a cionados.    ~I.M.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: early grey on April 18, 2012, 06:33:58 AM
A recording of Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony Opus 58 , New Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Lorin Maazel,  performed at a Promenade Concert in the Royal Albert Hall, London around 1970 can be found on the "tapes" page of
www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk
Title: Re: 1982 Muti/Philharmonia TCHAIKOVSKY - Manfred Symphony
Post by: Que on April 18, 2012, 09:28:18 AM
What is it that people find so appealing about this set?  Yes, it is beautifully played, from what I've heard (2,4,5), but there must be something I am missing..?

No, it's just an overrated set. The "fame" of this set, particularly championed by some British reviewers has been on the decline for a while BTW.


Quote
Manfred is a flawed masterpiece, but Mutt makes a splendid case for it and the EMI engineering is very convincing. A classic Tchaikovsky transfer—a must for all this composer's a cionados.    ~I.M.

The Manfred a "flawed masterpiece" ??? Humbug! 8)

Q
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Scion7 on April 18, 2012, 06:51:49 PM
You didn't really expect a critic to give any piece 100% approval, did you?  :)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on May 17, 2016, 01:06:16 PM
The following recordings are the versions of Tchaikovsky’s Manfred Symphony that I own....

Jansons – Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra [Chandos]
Litton – Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra [Virgin]
Pletnev – Russian National Orchestra [Pentatone]
Previn – London Symphony Orchestra [EMI]
Rostropovich - London Philharmonic Orchestra [EMI]
Svetlanov – USSR Symphony Orchestra [Melodiya]

In terms of preference I would rank them as follows:

Previn
Jansons
Pletnev
Litton
Svetlanov
Rostropovich

The Previn, Jansons and Pletnev would possibly be interchangeable on any given day, certainly the Previn and Jansons. The Rostropovich would be my least favoured.


A quick look on Amazon throws up the following that I am interested in....

Jurowski – London Philharmonic [LPO]
Chailly – Concertgebouw Orchestra [Decca]
Petrenko - Royal Liverpool Philharmonic [Naxos]


Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Daverz on May 17, 2016, 02:27:46 PM
It was the Markevitch recording that really had me hearing the beauty of this work.  It's now available as a digital download.

http://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?q=Markevitch#quickview/album/7695

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4830427
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: jochanaan on May 17, 2016, 05:22:21 PM
I am a little surprised by the praise for the Goossens recording.  I had that recording in a set of Tchaikovsky symphonies on Everest, and though it was the best of that set, that's saying next to nothing.  Yes, the London Symphony Orchestra play their hearts out and Goossens' tempos are perfectly judged, but as I recall, the performance was cut nearly to ribbons, and the recorded sound was bottom-of-the-barrel.  Its only recommendation in that set was that the others were even worse.  (With the possible exception of the first three numbered symphonies, played by Hans Swarowski and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra.  They at least played with good tempos and dynamics, although the sound was too heavy and Germanic for my tastes.)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on May 18, 2016, 07:53:06 AM
It was the Markevitch recording that really had me hearing the beauty of this work.  It's now available as a digital download.

http://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?q=Markevitch#quickview/album/7695

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4830427

Yes indeed, Markevitch would certainly be interesting; thank you for that.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on May 18, 2016, 07:54:47 AM
I am a little surprised by the praise for the Goossens recording.  I had that recording in a set of Tchaikovsky symphonies on Everest, and though it was the best of that set, that's saying next to nothing.  Yes, the London Symphony Orchestra play their hearts out and Goossens' tempos are perfectly judged, but as I recall, the performance was cut nearly to ribbons, and the recorded sound was bottom-of-the-barrel.  Its only recommendation in that set was that the others were even worse.  (With the possible exception of the first three numbered symphonies, played by Hans Swarowski and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra.  They at least played with good tempos and dynamics, although the sound was too heavy and Germanic for my tastes.)

Yes I intensely dislike when works are heavily cut so that rules the Goossens recording completely out.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 11:47:06 AM
I like the Svetlanov version with the completely bogus end to the finale - the symphony ends with the return of the magnificent finale of the first movement instead of Tchaikovsky's actual ending (:o). No doubt Tchaikovsky would be turning in his grave but I love it:

http://slippedisc.com/2014/06/wrong-tchaikovsky-ending-at-the-berlin-philharmonic/
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: merlin on May 19, 2016, 08:35:18 AM
Listened again to the Pletnev Manfred last night.  It confirmed my initial impressions — very well played and recorded, and for the most part, pablum.  If you want your Tchaikovsky red-blooded and fiery, with guts and passion, his version cannot hold a candle to Svetlanov, Kitayenko, and even Rostropovich.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 20, 2016, 07:11:03 PM
Listened again to the Pletnev Manfred last night.  It confirmed my initial impressions — very well played and recorded, and for the most part, pablum.  If you want your Tchaikovsky red-blooded and fiery, with guts and passion, his version cannot hold a candle to Svetlanov, Kitayenko, and even Rostropovich.

But you are referring to the Pentatone version, yes? His DG is much different (as are all the symphonies).
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on May 21, 2016, 02:20:05 AM
I like the Svetlanov version with the completely bogus end to the finale - the symphony ends with the return of the magnificent finale of the first movement instead of Tchaikovsky's actual ending (:o). No doubt Tchaikovsky would be turning in his grave but I love it:

http://slippedisc.com/2014/06/wrong-tchaikovsky-ending-at-the-berlin-philharmonic/

No doubt Tchaikovsky would be turning in his grave indeed but if you like it then you like it  :)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on May 21, 2016, 02:22:22 AM
But you are referring to the Pentatone version, yes? His DG is much different (as are all the symphonies).

I had heard that there was a significant difference between the two versions and I had been advised to go for the DG version which I did, and enjoyed it. One is always curious to make such comparisons for oneself though but I have not done so yet.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: bluto32 on March 05, 2017, 03:49:24 PM
I have only heard the Manfred by Jansons (on the Chandos box set of Tchaikovsky symphonies) and love it. Has the main Manfred theme of the symphony ever been used in a film score? Or maybe for a TV series a long time ago? I've got a feeling I've heard it somewhere...

Bluto
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: JRJoseph on March 12, 2017, 06:54:39 AM
I actually heard the Manfred a few weeks ago by the New York Phil. here in NYC.  The audience went wild thinking they had heard a great performance but I felt it dragged in spots and the slow movement seemed endless although it was exciting in spots.  It certainly was great to hear it live.  The conductor was S, Bychkov.  It received a poor review from the NY Times critic who complained about sloppy playing and timing problems.  I own the Muti and Plentev (?) versions.  I am still looking for a better recording and understanding version of this great but sprawling work.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 12, 2017, 07:03:51 AM
I rather like Ashkenazy and Chailly, especially Chailly. The Concertgebouw just has the right chops and flair to pull this one off.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: merlin on March 12, 2017, 07:53:48 AM
Kitayenko, Rostropovich, and Svetlanov are wonderful.  Excellent sound and performances.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on March 13, 2017, 08:46:24 AM
Great to read more thoughts on this work  :)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: vandermolen on March 13, 2017, 12:44:32 PM
My favourite is still the Svetlanov with the bogus ending (used years ago in a TV dramatisation of Anna Karenina along with Glazunov's 'Finnish Fantasy'). I also still like the Goossens recording with the original ending.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Cato on March 22, 2017, 12:49:15 PM
I actually heard the Manfred a few weeks ago by the New York Phil. here in NYC.  The audience went wild thinking they had heard a great performance but I felt it dragged in spots and the slow movement seemed endless although it was exciting in spots.  It certainly was great to hear it live.  The conductor was S, Bychkov.  It received a poor review from the NY Times critic who complained about sloppy playing and timing problems.  I own the Muti and Plentev (?) versions.  I am still looking for a better recording and understanding version of this great but sprawling work.

Great to read more thoughts on this work  :)

I have mentioned this earlier, but one of the greatest recordings of it is a version (there is a cut in the finale, which some say is warranted) by Toscanini with the NBC Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/IbPKC2ii9W0&index=2&list=PLAjaJgK3Be--OwoE6LEkAczfScMWep-I9
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Drasko on March 22, 2017, 01:03:48 PM
my favorite recording of Manfred

http://www.vistavera.com/index.php?mark=5&productID=1544

https://www.amazon.com/Conductors-Konstantin-Symeonov-Tchaikovsky-Manfred/dp/B003O32LUC

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51FuZa-ZSVL.jpg)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on March 25, 2017, 02:28:33 AM
I have mentioned this earlier, but one of the greatest recordings of it is a version (there is a cut in the finale, which some say is warranted) by Toscanini with the NBC Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/IbPKC2ii9W0&index=2&list=PLAjaJgK3Be--OwoE6LEkAczfScMWep-I9

Unfortunately this video is not available to me.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on March 25, 2017, 02:29:02 AM
my favorite recording of Manfred

http://www.vistavera.com/index.php?mark=5&productID=1544

https://www.amazon.com/Conductors-Konstantin-Symeonov-Tchaikovsky-Manfred/dp/B003O32LUC

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51FuZa-ZSVL.jpg)

That one looks interesting.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Cato on March 25, 2017, 10:12:28 AM

I have mentioned this earlier, but one of the greatest recordings of it is a version (there is a cut in the finale, which some say is warranted) by Toscanini with the NBC Orchestra:

https://www.youtube.com/v/IbPKC2ii9W0&index=2&list=PLAjaJgK3Be--OwoE6LEkAczfScMWep-I9

Unfortunately this video is not available to me.

Strange: no idea about the problem!
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: North Star on March 25, 2017, 12:21:11 PM
Strange: no idea about the problem!
Seems like it's just available in the US.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on March 26, 2017, 01:21:46 AM
Strange: no idea about the problem!

Don't worry, it can be a common enough problem around here. Thanks for posting anyway  :)
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: bluto32 on April 16, 2017, 02:43:19 AM
... Has the main Manfred theme of the symphony ever been used in a film score? Or maybe for a TV series a long time ago? I've got a feeling I've heard it somewhere...

Anyone? I feel so sure I've heard this in a movie a long time ago, but have had no luck searching for what it might be online.
(Or perhaps I'm just going senile  :-\)

Bluto
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: aligreto on April 16, 2017, 03:14:24 AM
Unfortunately I cannot help here. Don't worry about the senility though  ;D
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: Laece on April 21, 2017, 08:07:37 AM
Hi guys ! Are you aware, there is a new recording of Tchaikovsky's Manfred by V. Petrenko (Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra).

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/Images/cds/others/8.570568.gif)

http://www.naxos.com/feature/Tchaikovsky_Manfred_Symphony_CD.asp

The performance is excellent in my opinion. One of the very best recording of the piece.

Completely agree with this.
Title: Re: Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony
Post by: flyingdutchman on October 29, 2017, 08:05:14 PM
Here's another Silvestri performance with Philadelphia Orchestra:

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc490