GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: Maciek on April 12, 2007, 01:47:43 PM

Title: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on April 12, 2007, 01:47:43 PM
[Edit: After Rosie's post I've renamed the thread. From Chopin's Songs to its current title.]

Frankly, I used to ignore them. But I've been playing a couple of them on the piano lately and am absolutely amazed. My two favorites are now the two very sad songs: Smutna rzeka (Sad River) and Leci liście z drzewa (A leaf falls from a tree...). I was infected by the tune from the former for a couple of days, and the latter is so modern! :o

I understand these aren't performed awfully often. I suppose it's because a) there are only a few of them, b) they are in Polish (gosh! ::)). But still, there are quite a few recordings to choose from. Any favorites? I think I might go for Teresa Żylis-Gara (Zylis-Gara):
(http://kmt.pl/foto/DUX/0138.jpg)
It's a complete set and it's her. I wonder if her voice was still at its best, though (she was 65 when this was recorded)? I know this isn't exactly coloratura repertoire but still...

Another one I'm considering is this:
(http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/173.jpg)
It has Stefania Woytowicz in most of the songs, and she is one of my favorite Polish sopranos.

And I also feel drawn towards two small selections sung by Ewa Podleś (Podles), especially the first of these two (because it's with Ewa Poblocka):
(http://www.cdaccord.com.pl/images/covers/045.jpg) (http://kmt.pl/foto/DUX/0405.jpg)

But on Polish labels alone I've found two more complete sets and one CD with a selection, and I'm sure there'd be more, if I were brave enough to check amazon and the like... So suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have time anyway, this is not going to the very top of my wishlist (though very nearly).

And what are your thoughts on the songs themselves?

[BTW, a funny thing I noticed in the track listings is that the title Leci liście z drzewa is often changed into Lecą liście z drzewa (Leaves are falling from a tree...). This is absolutely preposterous and shows that the people involved are not only completely uneducated but that they didn't have the good will to seek out someone who could help. "Leci liście z drzewa" sounds wrong to a modern Polish ear because the grammatical forms are now archaic but they are perfectly correct (historically). The fact that someone decided to change the solitary, sad leaf into an avalanche is just sad in itself. Does stupidity have a boundary? I sense a problem coming: if any of the singers actually indulge in singing the text with that change (innocent/ignorant as they might be) I predict I will not be able to listen. :-\]

Maciek
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2007, 05:40:13 AM
Chopin's songs have been completely off my radar, Maciek;  but I am sure they are lovely, and deserve more exposure!
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: Drasko on April 13, 2007, 07:25:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 13, 2007, 05:40:13 AM
Chopin's songs have been completely off my radar

Same here, this is the only recording I've heard of, though how idiomatic Soderstrom is in Polish I do not know.

http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/03617.html (http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/03617.html)
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: Maciek on April 18, 2007, 11:22:42 AM
I'm surprised they are so unpopular! ;) I remember people recommending them on the old forum...?

How about the Liszt transcriptions? I'm sure someone must have heard those!
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: DevRose on May 01, 2007, 08:34:15 AM
Hello!

I wanted to thank you for mentioning and recommending the Podles A Treasury of Polish Songs. I've been enjoying it! I would love to explore more Polish song. Do you have an idea of where I should go next? I am trying to amass an international and ecletic collection of art song, so any suggestions would be most appreciated.

:)


Rosie

Quick intro of myself: I lurk quite a bit, but am going to de-lurk. I live in New York, but am from California. I love the voice, and adore song in all shapes and colors. I am still relatively new to the art song game, so I have a lot of exploring to do!
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 10:55:31 AM
Quote from: DevRose on May 01, 2007, 08:34:15 AM
Rosie

Quick intro of myself: I lurk quite a bit, but am going to de-lurk. I live in New York, but am from California. I love the voice, and adore song in all shapes and colors. I am still relatively new to the art song game, so I have a lot of exploring to do!

WELCOME, ROSIE! 

Thank you for de-lurking!
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 10:58:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 13, 2007, 05:40:13 AM
I am sure they are lovely, and deserve more exposure!

Was Chopin capable of composing other than that which is lovely?
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: Maciek on May 01, 2007, 02:03:46 PM
Quote from: DevRose on May 01, 2007, 08:34:15 AM
Hello!

Hi Rosie! Welcome to the forum and thanks for de-lurking! :D Now that you've done that - dive right in! We're all friendly folk here, ultimately. ;)

(And may I just add that I think Rose is an absolutely beautiful name! :D)

QuoteI wanted to thank you for mentioning and recommending the Podles A Treasury of Polish Songs. I've been enjoying it!

You're very welcome! I myself still haven't got it but that plus the Woytowicz are the 2 discs my heart is set on. I'll probably finally get it within a month or two - your recommendation might even speed that up a little. ;D

QuoteI would love to explore more Polish song. Do you have an idea of where I should go next? I am trying to amass an international and ecletic collection of art song, so any suggestions would be most appreciated.

If you want to be flooded with suggestions - you've come to the right place! ;D (Rubs his hands) Ha-ha, nothing will stop me now!

Before I move on to particular discs let me name three composers that should be the foundation: Stanislaw (Stanisław, actually) Moniuszko, Mieczyslaw Karlowicz (or Mieczysław Karłowicz, as we spell him over here ;)), Karol Szymanowski. There are many others, of course (and also quite a few of the more modern ones) but these 3 (and Chopin!) are the absolute basics as far as Polish art song is concerned - and you've already had a taste of them because they are all featured on that Podles disc. Other names will come up as I go through all of the worthwhile discs that I have found.

Now, I know their songs pretty well if I may say so myself (I used to ignore Moniuszko for quite a while but now even that has changed), because they get played quite a lot on the radio here. But because they are such a frequent feature I don't really have many recordings. So most of the recommendations that will follow are based either on my memories from the radio or on my general knowledge of a performer. They are all on my wish list though. (As you can see, my wish list is very long - it might in fact be longer than the list of recordings I actually have, LOL)

First of all there's this 5 CD set of the Polish mezzo Krystyna Szostek-Radkowa, released by the Polish Radio:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/28/PRCD07175.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,474195.html)

I don't have this set but this is one of my favorite Polish singers, a really lovely voice. The set isn't exactly crammed with Polish repertoire but since you generally like art song I'm sure that won't be a problem ;). The first disc is Schubert-Schumann-Brahms. CD number 2 is Karlowicz (5 songs)-Szymanowski (3 songs in Russian!)-Mussorgsky-Rachmaninov-Tchaikovsky. Number 3 is Debussy-Henryk Mikolaj Gorecki (3 songs)-Lutoslawski (the Illakowiczowna settings that one of our members, Edward, has recommended on several occasions)-Szymanowski (the 3 Kasprowicz Hymns)-Mahler. Disc number 4 is baroque music with very few Polish tracks, CD 5 is filled with opera arias, including only one by Moniuszko. It looks like a really splendid set, and quite a bargain (over here it costs only a little more than that single Podles disc!).

My list is long, so I'll go by labels from here.

Also released by Polish radio is a very good selection of songs by a less known Polish composer - Wladyslaw Zelenski (Władysław Żeleński). He is often (if unfavorably) compared to Brahms and really deserves to be better known. This collection is sung by the wonderful Polish alto Jadwiga Rappé:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/15/PRCD070.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,461411.html)

And another disc set from the same label, 3 CDs of music sung by Bernard Ladysz, a celebrated bass-baritone. He was quite famous for his interpretations of Moniuszko, and this set contains a few songs and opera arias by that composer. As well as an entire disc devoted to songs by Rachmaninov. And, strangely enough, an entire disc devoted to popular songs (??)...
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/21/4811521.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,389284.html)

I don't want to make an enormous post, so I'll end it here and list stuff from the other labels in a separate one.

Also, I think I'll rename the thread (seems Chopin's songs aren't as popular as I had hoped...).

Cheers,
Maciek
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: MrOsa on May 01, 2007, 02:03:46 PM
Also, I think I'll rename the thread (seems Chopin's songs aren't as popular as I had hoped...).

Great new thread name . . . . . . just rolls off the tongue  ::): Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Maciek on May 01, 2007, 02:19:46 PM
Since the Podles disc was released by CD Accord and they seem to be available worldwide (through ArkivMusic?), I'll move on to them next. Two excellent discs (from what I've heard) from them.

The first is a great set of songs by Mieczyslaw Karlowicz. The pianist here is the same as on the Podles disc - Ewa Poblocka (http://www.poblocka.com/). I've mentioned (and advertised) her on GMG before but she's such a splendid pianist that I might as well do it one more time. Her mother was a singer so she herself is an excellent accompanist and plays wonderfully as a part of chamber ensembles. But she is much more than that - an accomplished concert pianist, a true virtuoso with a legacy of great recordings (a fantastic Beethoven 1st PC, some wonderful Mozart PCs, and mesmerizing contemporary music - the PCs by Lutoslawski, Panufnik and Pawel Szymanski; her main specialities are Chopin and Bach though). The singer is once more the fantastic Jadwiga Rappé:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/20/0114852.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,189393.html)

The other disc is a recording of religious songs by Stanislaw Moniuszko (with organ accompaniment). Some truly excellent singers here as well, including Andrzej Hiolski (generally considered the best Polish baritone of the 20th century), Piotr Kusiewicz and Jadwiga Rappé again:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/9/ACD0972.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,310663.html)

That's all from this label.

Cheers,
Maciek
Title: Re: Chopin's Songs
Post by: Maciek on May 01, 2007, 02:20:28 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 02:17:22 PM
Great new thread name . . . . . . just rolls off the tongue  ::): Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song

Heh, heh. You should be thankful I didn't include their first names. >:D 0:)
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Maciek on May 01, 2007, 02:41:08 PM
Next is a great big pack of assorted goodies from Polskie Nagrania.

First, a 2 CD set of essentials - a generous selection from Moniuszko's "Spiewnik domowy" (his foremost, multi-volume collection of several hundred songs):
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/19/PNCD348.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36907.html) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/20/PNCD349.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36908.html)
The performers on the first disc are a mixed bag but the second has an outstanding cast (Hiolski, Ladysz and Ochman!).

Then you could round that off with a selection of songs by Chopin and Karlowicz sung by a young Andrzej Hiolski:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/20/PNCD385.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36938.html)

And then comes a real treat. A 3-disc set by Wieslaw Ochman, an excellent Polish tenor who has recorded quite a bit (most of it abroad in fact). Only the last disc is dedicated to Polish songs but it gives a great overview of the less known composers, such as Gall, Niewiadomski, Gablenz.
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/18/PNCD901AC.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,444495.html)

The only one missing in this set is Komorowski, author of the "hit" Kalina. You'll find that (sung by Szostek-Radkowa!) on this collection of sundry tidbits:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/11/PNCD223.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36789.html)
(the title reads "The Most Beautiful Polish Songs"; as for the cover, I think I won't be commenting Polskie Nagrania covers anymore - I'm running out of deprecating vocabulary)

Well, that's all from this label. One last post left to go. I think. ;)

Maciek
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Maciek on May 01, 2007, 02:59:38 PM
This one will be "assorted labels". First of all you have got to get a recording of Lutoslawski's 20 Christmas Carols. There's a great recording by Rappé released by Polish Radio but that's out of print. People here on GMG say that this one from Naxos (also with Rappé but the Carols are sung by Pasiecznik) is topnotch excellent too:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/12/8555994.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Lutoslawski-Twenty-Polish-Christmas-Lacrimosa/dp/B000B6N66S/ref=sr_1_1/002-0628914-3893645?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178059420&sr=8-1)

You should definitely get a set of traditional Polish carols just to be aware of what exactly Lutoslawski has done. I'd recommend the versions recorded by Camerata Silesia (Musicon or DUX) - they are arranged very creatively by the composer Krzysztof Baculewski but they do give you a decent idea of what these carols originally sound like:
(http://www.musicon.pl/pictures/covers/mcd013.jpg) (http://www.musicon.pl/polish/scripts/mcd013.html)   (http://kmt.pl/foto/DUX/0300b.jpg) (http://kmt.pl/pozycja.asp?DZ=&KsID=4659&kstr=1)

You might also be interested in the full set of Szymanowski's songs. I don't have this but my supervisor does and he is raving about it. Actually, I don't trust his ear one bit but this might very well be the only time he is right:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SD3D50X7L._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Szymanowski-Complete-Songs-Voice-Piano/dp/B0002QXN6U/ref=sr_1_4/002-0628914-3893645?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178058219&sr=1-4)

You might also consider getting some songs by Ignacy Jan Paderewski. The Teresa Zylis-Gara disc I mentioned in my first post contains a nice selection but there's also a set of his complete songs (they all fit nicely on one disc). Unfortunately, this is from Acte Préalable, so I would be concerned about the performance - they are a very inconsistent label:
(http://www.acteprealable.com/albums/cover/ap0013.jpg) (http://www.acteprealable.com/albums/ap0013.html)

And if you want something really exotic there's a disc containing songs by the now completely forgotten composer Raul Koczalski:
(http://dybowscy.w.interia.pl/Koczalski_4.jpg)
This has been released by the very small independent label Selene (http://dybowscy.w.interia.pl/fonografia_pl.htm). I have no idea how you (or even I, for that matter!) could get it... :-\

That's all from me now. I'd gladly welcome any comments or further suggestions!

Cheers,
Maciek
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: DevRose on May 02, 2007, 07:44:53 PM
Well, I certainly asked the right question in the right place!  :) This is going to be a fabulous introduction. I am ordering as we speak, and will definitely report on what I hear. I am giving the Podles disc another listen so I can report back on that too, although I am perhaps not the world's most articulate critic. Thank you for setting me on my way!

And I am very glad that I have de-lurked. I don't want to miss out because I didn't speak up!

Rosie

Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Maciek on May 03, 2007, 04:02:26 PM
Quote from: DevRose on May 02, 2007, 07:44:53 PM
I am ordering as we speak, and will definitely report on what I hear.

Wonderful! Yes, please do report, I'm very curious about your impressions myself.

Quote
I am giving the Podles disc another listen so I can report back on that too, although I am perhaps not the world's most articulate critic.

Don't worry about that. The world's most articulate critic, whoever he or she is, probably doesn't frequent this board anyway. ;D I'll be very interested to read your thoughts. I have bits and pieces from that disc recorded from the radio and am definitely going to buy it this year.

Quote
Thank you for setting me on my way!

Thank you for asking. I'm planning to use that list I made myself. So you've done us both a favour! ;D

Waiting for your posts! :D 8)

Cheers,
Maciek
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: orbital on May 03, 2007, 07:25:37 PM
I don't enjoy songs much (well, to be honest not at all  >:D) but in the case of Chopin I made an exception and got my only copy featuring Ohlsson &Ewa Podles. I guess they are good. But they sound better on the solo piano (Cortot plays a few of them in his EMI box set)
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Maciek on May 04, 2007, 12:37:51 PM
You must mean the Liszt transcriptions. Well, I know them but somehow they never got me interested in the songs themselves, I never enjoyed them very much. Perhaps I need a better performance (frankly, I don't remember who I have in them - not anyone famous, that's for sure).
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Drasko on May 04, 2007, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: MrOsa on May 01, 2007, 02:59:38 PM
This has been released by the very small independent label Selene (http://dybowscy.w.interia.pl/fonografia_pl.htm). I have no idea how you (or even I, for that matter!) could get it... :-\

Sidoze had quite a bunch of those Michalowski, Koczalski, Turczynski discs on Selene so they have to be available somehow. I can ask him if anybody is really interested.
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Maciek on May 04, 2007, 01:26:08 PM
Well, I actually have a couple of their CDs, so there must be a shop somewhere in Warsaw that sells them. Unfortunately, I don't remember where I bought them... :-\

Their site gives an e-mail address (selene@post.pl), so maybe you can order straight from them.

I myself am not very interested at the moment - there's still too much mainstream stuff that I'm missing... :(
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Maciek on May 07, 2007, 10:18:08 AM
This weekend I compared an older recording I have of Szymanowski's Blogoslawiona niech bedzie ta chwila (third song from his Kasprowicz settings) done by Teresa Zylis-Gara (with Jerzy Marchwinski at the piano) to a more recent one by Ewa Podles (with Ewa Poblocka - this time only a radio recording but I think it comes from the CD I mentioned in the first post and Rosie bought). I think very highly of Zylis-Gara so I was really surprised to find that her performance sounds really, really weak in comparison to Podles's. Podles certainly knows how to make this song work while Zylis-Gara seems to be loitering without a clue on where the singing should go, and really doesn't invest the energy it deserves. Zylis-Gara is very good in the first two songs of this set (especially the first one) so I'm looking forward to the time when I finally get to hear them sung by Podles. I wonder who I'll like better there.

BTW, looking at the track listings of the Podles disc I realized that it also contains the Illakowiczowna settings that come on the Szostek-Radkowa set. FYI.

Maciek
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Sean on May 07, 2007, 01:19:11 PM
MrOsa, there was a whole bunch of Szymanowski songs on a BBC Radio program a few days back but I didn't bother with them: there's a listen-again facility though. His other vocal works are some of his best of course so maybe I should make an effort?
Title: Re: Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski (and others) - Polish Art Song
Post by: Maciek on May 07, 2007, 01:30:26 PM
I definitely prefer his songs for voice and orchestra (some of them have 2 versions). But when the performance is good (which is not always the case, of course) some of them are really beautiful. If you do give them a try, remember to post your impressions!

Maciek
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on May 16, 2007, 03:04:19 AM
Well, here's a small update from me.

Quote from: MrOsa on April 12, 2007, 01:47:43 PM
Another one I'm considering is this:
(http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/173.jpg)
It has Stefania Woytowicz in most of the songs, and she is one of my favorite Polish sopranos.
Quote from: MrOsa on May 01, 2007, 02:03:46 PM
I myself still haven't got it but that plus the Woytowicz are the 2 discs my heart is set on. I'll probably finally get it within a month or two - your recommendation might even speed that up a little. ;D

Unfortunately, Woytowicz's singing on this disc (I got the whole Chopin - Complete Works 20 CD set ::)) is definitely less than satisfying. It only goes to show how deceptively difficult these pieces are. They really look easy because they are extremely simple in terms of melody - but that makes for extremely difficult singing, apparently. It's just so very easy to go over the top with them - a singer really has to keep as restrained as possible, try not to "show off" their voice, treat these as if they were written by Mozart. However, the problem I have with Woytowicz here is not her interpretation but the color of her voice. In all of her other recordings that I know her voice is quite dark and very mezzo-like. Here all of a sudden she's screeching in a really unpleasant manner. The other half of the disc is sung by Andrzej Bachleda, an excellent baritone who also sings a lot of contemporary music. He does a much better job and it's a pleasure to listen to him (a rest for the ears after that first half). However, I can't really recommend the CD as a whole. The search for a perfect set continues... ;D

Quote from: MrOsa on May 01, 2007, 02:41:08 PM
Next is a great big pack of assorted goodies from Polskie Nagrania.

Then you could round that off with a selection of songs by Chopin and Karlowicz sung by a young Andrzej Hiolski:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/20/PNCD385.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36938.html)

This one however turned out to be a real gem. :D :D :D The four Chopin songs may not be perfect (a bit too little of the necessary restraint I mentioned earlier) but they are very good. And the whole Karlowicz cycle is done beautifully, a wonderful recording. I've been listening to it over and over again for the last couple of days. I repeat a wholehearted recommendation. :D

Cheers,
Maciek
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: DevRose on June 07, 2007, 10:52:25 AM
Hello! I am sorry that I have been absent for so long--I went to visit my family, and it turns out that my mother got rid of her internet connection on a whim. Strange woman. While I was incommunicado, I did listen to a lot of music, notably (and obviously most relevant to this thread and this update) the Podles Treasury of Polish Songs. I love these songs. I love this singer. I love this pianist. And, finally, I love this cd. I was trying to pick a favorite or two to mention in particular, but I kept changing my mind about which two. Then I tried to pick a favorite composer on the disc, and couldn't do that either. The singing and playing are beautifully done. Ewa Podles's dark voice sounds gorgeous in these songs, and her singing is matched by Ewa Poblocka's playing. It was the perfect introduction to these luscious songs.  :)  I would recommend this cd! I am sure that someone else probably has a different opinion, but there you go.

Rosie
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on June 18, 2007, 03:00:27 PM
Hi Rosie!

I was away too, for the past 2 weeks (almost). I got back last night and ordered the Podles/Poblocka disc first thing this morning - even before reading your review above! :D Now I have a long wait ahead - the disc seems to be out of stock, and it might even turn out to be OOP (discs by Polish labels are usually available a little longer abroad than they are here... ??? probably because overseas shops sell their stocks more slowly... :-\).

Maciek
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on July 11, 2007, 06:11:32 AM
Another update:

Quote from: Maciek on May 01, 2007, 02:03:46 PM
First of all there's this 5 CD set of the Polish mezzo Krystyna Szostek-Radkowa, released by the Polish Radio:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/28/PRCD07175.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,474195.html)

I don't have this set but this is one of my favorite Polish singers, a really lovely voice. The set isn't exactly crammed with Polish repertoire but since you generally like art song I'm sure that won't be a problem ;). The first disc is Schubert-Schumann-Brahms. CD number 2 is Karlowicz (5 songs)-Szymanowski (3 songs in Russian!)-Mussorgsky-Rachmaninov-Tchaikovsky. Number 3 is Debussy-Henryk Mikolaj Gorecki (3 songs)-Lutoslawski (the Illakowiczowna settings that one of our members, Edward, has recommended on several occasions)-Szymanowski (the 3 Kasprowicz Hymns)-Mahler. Disc number 4 is baroque music with very few Polish tracks, CD 5 is filled with opera arias, including only one by Moniuszko. It looks like a really splendid set, and quite a bargain (over here it costs only a little more than that single Podles disc!).

Note 1: The Szymanowski songs are sung NOT in Russian - it's just that their Russian titles are listed in front of the Polish ones for some reason.

Note 2: This set turned out to be everything I expected and much more. It is a pure delight! Wholehearted recommendation!

Quote
And another disc set from the same label, 3 CDs of music sung by Bernard Ladysz, a celebrated bass-baritone. He was quite famous for his interpretations of Moniuszko, and this set contains a few songs and opera arias by that composer. As well as an entire disc devoted to songs by Rachmaninov. And, strangely enough, an entire disc devoted to popular songs (??)...
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/21/4811521.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,389284.html)

This, OTOH, is quite a dud. Yes, Ladysz is the only Polish singer to have been invited to sing alongside Callas (in one of her Lucia recordings) BUT:

Note 1: There is no "entire disc devoted to songs by Rachmaninov" in the set - there was a mistake on the page I took my information from.

Note 2: No less than 2 of the discs in this 3 disc set are devoted musicals and popular songs, and not very good ones either.

My verdict is: unless you're a Ladysz completist get yourself his classical recordings - there are a few recital discs out there - but you really don't need this set.

Of course, you may want it just for that small picture of him before the sex change operation in the upper left corner... ;D
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 28, 2007, 11:15:45 AM
Just an update re the 2 sets above. After repeated listening I have come to the following conclusion: 1) the high quality of the first disc in the Ładysz disc justifies buying the whole set, even if the third one is pure garbage, and the second contains only a few usable tracks. 2) My enthusiasm for Krystyna Szostek-Radek, OTOH, has waned somewhat. There are much better interpretations out there of practically every piece she sings. The only really interesting disc is the one where she sings baroque arias - there are some very rarely recorded Polish pieces here. Still, I'm not sure if another singer wouldn't have done better. This is an on the whole unpleasant experience, as Szostek-Radkowa was one of the first singers whose voice I appreciated. It's sad to discover after some years that she wasn't really all that good... :'( (Hopefully, another couple of years will pass and I'll be ready for a reappraisal. ;))
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 28, 2007, 11:04:38 PM
With all due respect, Chopin's compositions for voice are not anywhere near his piano writing. His few compositions for cello and piano come in a close second as his friend August Franchomme performed with him and no doubt schooled him on how to write for the instrument.

Unless I missed something, and I think I have the complete collection of songs published by Schirmer, the voice part is pale by comparison to the piano. Schumann may have equalized both but 'piano with voice accompaniment' is a little too unbalanced. Even his works with orchestra kind of strides the fence here as there is very little interaction with the piano (star of the show) in the concertos and in the other works the orchestra can readily be dispensed with (Krakowiak, Andante Spianato & Grand Polonaise).

The "Maiden's Wish" has some nice passages for piano but that's really about it. Liszt's transcription is an improvement, in my opinion. Maybe the text endears these songs to Polish speakers but that alone  cannot compensate for the lack of musical substance.

ZB
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 29, 2007, 04:44:36 AM
Ah, the notorious ZB hath spoke, and very discontentful words! Why did it take you so long to join us? The subject of Chopin's songs hasn't been touched in this thread since May! ::)

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 28, 2007, 11:04:38 PM
With all due respect, Chopin's compositions for voice are not anywhere near his piano writing.

"Not anywhere near" in what respect?

Fame and popularity? Difficult to say - apparently that differs from country to country. They are performed far more often in Eastern Europe, in countries like Poland or Russia. You should also take into account how long it took for these compositions to get published. None of them saw the printing press before 1859, and quite a few had to wait until as late as 1910!

Intricacy? Here we obviously disagree but then I've mentioned that my feelings used to be similar to yours. I can only hope that with time you will see the beauty of these little gems, even if they may seem difficult now. A closer acquaintance with Chopin's Mazurkas (pieces permeated with a similar type of deceptive simplicity) would help - as his songs are obvious vocal counterparts. Reading up on the songs would help a bit too - I'm under the impression that you neither know when they were written (and although they're collected in one opus - plus the two without opus - they span his entire lifetime) or why and for whom. Almost all of the Witwicki settings were written by a 19-year old and not intended for publication - they were gifts to friends, amateur musicians at best. Even Pierscien, written 7 years later, was composed as a love token for Maria Wodzinska. The song Wiosna, written in the following year, one where the simplicity admittedly goes too far (the whole harmony is essentially based on 2 chords), seems to have been composed with the sole purpose of copying into various ladies' albums. I don't think a single one of Chopin's songs was written as a "serious composition" (even his last, the brilliant Melodia, he inscribed into Delfina Potocka's album). The 10 Pol songs (of which only one remains) were probably conceived of as popular patriotic songs - they were first presented at a meeting of Poles held to commemorate the outbreak of the November Uprising. It is all the more interesting to see how good many of them are.

QuoteHis few compositions for cello and piano come in a close second as his friend August Franchomme performed with him and no doubt schooled him on how to write for the instrument.

Judging by the Grand duo which they wrote together - Franchomme had really very little to offer. I wonder where you got your rather original idea?

Anyway, First of all, what is truly amazing about Chopin's Cello Sonata is the piano part - the way it differs completely from his earlier pieces, including other chamber works like the Piano Trio or the Polonaise brillante op. 3. It is definitely one of Chopin's masterpieces that stands proudly beside his solo piano works. It marks an astonishing stylistic turn in his writing: in terms of harmonics it is one of his most modern works (the frequent, abrupt key changes!), and the texture is also a completely new world, with all the flowery ornamentation cut down to an absolute minimum.

So what you say is really not much of an argument: first, because it has nothing to do with the songs. And second, because the Cello Sonata is not a "close second" to Chopin's piano works but a piece of equal standing, in fact better than many of them. The same goes for the Polonaise which is just as good as many of the piano polonaises. And the claim that the great composer Franchomme "schooled" Chopin in composition really is silly - I hope you meant it as a joke?

QuoteUnless I missed something, and I think I have the complete collection of songs published by Schirmer, the voice part is pale by comparison to the piano.

The edition I'm using is from the Complete Works edited by Paderewski. The piano part in most of the songs is extremely modest, in some places laughably so. There's hardly a difficult passage in the whole set (the only aspect that could pose some difficulty, and certainly not to an advanced pianist!, is the speed in some of the faster pieces). So I really can't see how on earth the voice part can pale in comparison to the piano... ???

QuoteSchumann may have equalized both but 'piano with voice accompaniment' is a little too unbalanced.

I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker and my English sometimes fails me. Could you explain in more detail what you mean here?

QuoteEven his works with orchestra kind of strides the fence here

"Here" = where?? (I guess if I understood the previous sentence I wouldn't have a problem with this one...)

Quoteas there is very little interaction with the piano (star of the show) in the concertos and in the other works the orchestra can readily be dispensed with (Krakowiak, Andante Spianato & Grand Polonaise).

Speculations about who actually orchestrated the concertos aside, I'm sure you're aware of the fact that the sparse orchestra writing was a conscious decision on Chopin's part - these compositions were written with chamber performances in mind. It was essential that they'd be written in a way where the orchestra could be omitted without much loss to the music. And what has this got to do with the songs anyway?

Quote
The "Maiden's Wish" has some nice passages for piano but that's really about it.

I disagree. In fact, I think it is a little masterpiece. Concise and simple, yet not for a moment primitive!

Also, why not comment on the ones I've singled out in my first post? Or on Melodia (no. 9) - possibly his greatest vocal composition?

QuoteLiszt's transcription is an improvement, in my opinion.

In what way? IIRC, Liszt doesn't add anything (or not much) - quite untypically of him. He simply has the piano play both the voice part and the accompaniment, no?

QuoteMaybe the text endears these songs to Polish speakers but that alone  cannot compensate for the lack of musical substance.

That's plain silly. More than half of Chopin's remaining songs were written to texts by Witwicki, a second rate poet (the same could also be said of Pol) - and these are actually the earlier, more popular ones! Osinski was in fact a third-rater but Chopin wrote one of his best songs (Piosnka litewska) to his text. Also, the setting of Precz z moich oczu (by Mickiewicz) remains Chopin's certainly poorest vocal effort (OTOH, Moja pieszczotka is one of the little masterpieces). The Zaleski settings are pretty conventional too.

It is worth mentioning though, that the unpretentious simplicity of the music does fit the (intended) simplicity of Witwicki's texts perfectly - the folk tilt is extremely strong here (the hollow fifths, the diatonic scales, the use of pentatonic, the folk dance rhythms). This simplicity is essentially retained even in the two more intricate songs: Gdzie lubi and Wojak.
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 29, 2007, 05:08:40 AM
Quote from: Maciek on August 29, 2007, 04:44:36 AM
Ah, the notorious ZB hath spoke, and very discontentful words!

Wow! I'm not going to repeat your screed. It's obvious that people who have a certain preference for certain music will not have tolerance for those who do not share your views.

I know a LOT of people who think that Chopin's songs fall FAR below his other music.

If you didn't know, composers work hand in hand with instrumentalists, like Brahms with Joachim on how to extract the best from the violin, what keys are best, passages that are easier, harder compared to others and much more. Brahms' father, I believe played the horn and later in life the composer had a clarinetist as a close friend. Writing for any instrument doesn't come out of the head of Jove. I was reading that Beethoven had much early schooling in different instruments. This just makes sense. So it is not a joke that Franchomme probably spent many hours showing Chopin the inner workings of 'cello playing.

Chopin was familiar enough with Bellinian roulades for the voice but instead transfigured them for piano. He was an honest person who knew what his strengths and weaknesses were. In fact, his countrymen wanted him to write the great Polish Opera but fortunately didn't venture into waters that he was not suited for.

from NOTORIOUS ZB, really, thanks a LOT
(who actually plays much of Chopin's music like the 2 piano concertos, andante spianato, etc., and taught a great deal over 30 years and incidentally is very cognizant of the Mazurkas and their HARMONIC importance)
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 29, 2007, 05:37:17 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 29, 2007, 05:08:40 AM
Wow! I'm not going to repeat your screed. It's obvious that people who have a certain preference for certain music will not have tolerance for those who do not share your views.

I'm not the one who used the "with all due respect" phrase. And if you go back to your own post you might notice that not once did you assert that the views presented were only your own. All you did is authoritatively proclaim "Chopin's songs are this, Chopin's cello writing is that, his piano concertos are this and that". Where exactly is the "certain preference" part, pray tell?

Quote
I know a LOT of people who think that Chopin's songs fall FAR below his other music.

Let me use a similar type of clear, logical argumentation: I know a LOT of people who think different! Including his monographers, like Zielinski.

Quote
If you didn't know, composers work hand in hand with instrumentalists, like Brahms with Joachim on how to extract the best from the violin, what keys are best, passages that are easier, harder compared to others and much more.

Yes, I'm aware of that but it is what is hiding in the "much more" part that I oppose to.

QuoteHe was an honest person who knew what his strengths and weaknesses were.

I wonder why then, at the end of his life, was he planning to collect all the songs and publish them (possibly after heavy rewriting)?

QuoteIn fact, his countrymen wanted him to write the great Polish Opera but fortunately didn't venture into waters that he was not suited for.

Oh, come on! You want to drag opera into this too? Fine, how about Schubert or Schumann then?

Quotefrom NOTORIOUS ZB, really, thanks a LOT
(who actually plays much of Chopin's music like the 2 piano concertos, andante spianato, etc., and taught a great deal over 30 years and incidentally is very cognizant of the Mazurkas and their HARMONIC importance)


All good and well but what sort of an argument is that??
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 29, 2007, 05:49:27 AM
Quote from: Maciek on August 29, 2007, 05:37:17 AM
All good and well but what sort of an argument is that??

I don't want to argue and certainly not with you. Those composers who wrote well for the voice had an intimate INSIDE knowledge of it, like Handel, Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini, Verdi, Puccini, etc. Those who SING appreciate know when the music fits like a glove and the same for instrumentalists and when it doesn't. (9 years ago a violinist--who played with the Paris Opera--was going crazy trying with me to negotiate the figurations in the Schubert duo written when he was 16 and not too much knowledge of string writing under his cap.) Also composers know their strengths and weaknesses, or should. Sibelius allegedly didn't like the piano as an instrument very much so therefore hardly wrote for it. Just because someone is an outstanding writer for piano doesn't qualify him/her for every other instrument.

I really wish you'd get off my case.

ZB
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 29, 2007, 05:54:14 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 29, 2007, 05:49:27 AM
I really wish you'd get off my case.

Fine. This isn't going anywhere anyway.

Anyone have a recording to recommend?
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 29, 2007, 02:23:42 PM
I guess one of the reason these songs are so often offhandedly dismissed is that there are so few of them, and the quality certainly is not evenly distributed between that few. Here are a few samples from my favorites.

Smutna rzeka - the musical construction is pretty simple (in comparison to the next two) but still I find it extremely effective emotionally (a very sad song). Here performed by Andrzej Bachleda (tenor) and Wanda Klimowicz (piano). The sample starts at the beginning and is cut off about a third of the way through:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/CHOPIN-Smutna%20rzeka%20%28Witwicki%29%20Bachleda%2C%20Klimowicz.mp3[/mp3]

Leci liscie z drzewa - this has many amazing effects, such as the 16 bars in a row of the voice repeating the same sound. Here performed by Stefania Woytowicz (soprano) and Wanda Klimowicz. The sample is taken roughly from the middle of the song, and contains the fragment mentioned:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/CHOPIN-Leci%20liscie%20drzewa%20%28Pol%29%20Woytowicz%2C%20Klimowicz.mp3[/mp3]

Melodia - Chopin's very last song, very original, showing the heights he was capable of, and the fascinating direction his songwriting would have taken had he lived longer. Here performed by Bachleda and Klimowicz. This is the song's depressing ending:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/25/1381505/CHOPIN-Melodia%20%28Krasinski%29%20Bachleda%2C%20Klimowicz.mp3[/mp3]

Oddly enough, all three touch on pessimistic patriotic subjects (the November Uprising).
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 29, 2007, 09:51:28 PM
I didn't have to search far and wide for validation of what I wrote about Chopin's songs. The second clip offers more of a musicological explanation why these didn't exactly come up to his other output.

Frederick Chopin as a Man and Musician, by Frederick Niecks (1902 !)

"As to Chopin, the composer of songs, the case is very simple. His pianoforte pieces are original tone-poems of exquisite beauty; his songs, though always acceptable, and sometimes charming, are not. We should know nothing of them and the composer, if of his works they alone had been published. In not publishing them himself, Chopin gave us his own opinion, an opinion confirmed by the singers in rarely performing them and by the public in little caring for them. In short, Chopin's songs add nothing to his fame. To mention them in one breath with those of Schubert and
Schumann,  or even with those of Robert Franz and Adolf Jensen, is the act of an hero-worshipping enthusiast, not of a discriminating critic."

Good e article about music history for those in need of some musical education:
Classical Music and Romantic Music - Part Two
http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/m151/Romantic_Music2.html

"Even more than Schumann, Chopin had little interest or taste for large-scale Classical forms. Unlike Schumann, however, Chopin drew little inspiration from literature. Chopin's songs are essentially dressed-up Polish folk songs. And, of his other works, only the four Ballades have a literary connection, and even here there is more of a narrative feeling rather than a feeling of a concrete musical foundation. Chopin had little taste for the emotional exuberance, the free spontaneity, the abrupt and extreme contrasts of Schumann or other Romantics. A certain underlying sobriety, a certain unconscious distancing of himself and his emotions from his music (except symbolically as a Pole) is rather a "Classical" element in the music of this Romantic composer."
Jeffrey Swann and Jack Logan, Ph.D.

To sum up, Chopin was more a product of his Bach tutelage than of the immediate romantic influences. He succeeded in composing music that is essentially about music, the REAL enduring quality about his work. This is the main reason he was never successfully imitated. One would have to have a deep grounding in the music of Bach that served as the basis for his harmonic experimentation and innovation.  The Mazurkas therefore are spiritual heirs to the dances in Bach's Partitas, English and French Suites.

The songs have rather a flat quality by comparison to his other works and to other art song composers like Schubert. The harmonies and accompaniments are rather pedestrian, except for some interesting passagework for the piano here and there. By comparison there is not one "dud" in the 600+ songs by Schubert. It's a certain approach that is missing--an intuitive understanding of the possibiities of the voice and the willingness to be subordinate to the words.

Sorry if some people don't like this but it's not only my opinion.

ZB
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
Dear zamyrabyrd,

It was you yourself who proposed we end the subject. My previous post was not addressed to you but to the people who responded to the thread in April - they had not heard any of Chopin's songs before and were interested. Since GMG now has the functionality to allow for samples, I could at last oblige them.

If you don't like Chopin's songs, that's fine with me - there are many people who don't. In fact, there are many people who don't like vocal music at all, or people who don't like classical music. That's not a problem. (Not a single one of my close friends likes classical music - except for GMG friends, of course - and of the people in my professional circles no one except my PhD advisor has any interest in it.) However, your view is not the only valid one. If you want proof that people who like Chopin's songs exist - you don't have to take my word for the existence of others (quite a few of them here - every self-respecting Polish singer has recorded them) but, well, I'm one!

Now, it is clear that we do not agree on Chopin's songs. You think they're worthless rubbish and a waste of time. I think they are a mixed (though admittedly very small ;D) bag containing a few extremely palatable gems. You think that Chopin wasn't a songwriter on the level of Schubert, and that Chopin could not write as well for voice as Bellini, Verdi etc. I never contradicted that statement. In fact, I don't have a fully formed opinion.

As for the two quotations you've given us, I'd much rather hear what you think (why, for instance, do you find the 2nd sample so damning?) but they're an interesting read, thanks. I would however dismiss Nieck because 1902 was 8 years before all of Chopin's songs were actually published.

As for what Jeffrey Swann and Jack Logan, Ph.D. say, well, I have 2 (minor) qualms:
1) "Chopin drew little inspiration from literature". I'm not sure what this contention is based on. Do they give a source? Like correspondence? I was under the impression that quite the opposite was true... (I mean a general influence, not one of the type where you can say "this piece influenced this, and that that".)
2) "Chopin's songs are essentially dressed-up Polish folk songs." Though perhaps this isn't exactly a howler, it is quite inaccurate. Some of the songs have absolutely nothing folk-like about them. For example: Wojak, Przecz z moich oczu, Melodia, Moja pieszczotka, Sliczny chlopiec (these last 2 are mazurkas with no folk characteristics whatsoever). Secondly, Chopin did not confine himself to Polish folklore - there are Ukrainian elements in a few of his songs (in Dwojaki koniec and both the dumkas: Dumka and Nie ma czego trzeba). So out of the 19 songs the composer had written at least 8 do not fit that statement. Also, I'm not sure how to interpret the phrase "dressed-up Polish folk songs" - I hope it's not supposed to mean direct musical quotation because that is simply not true (there are quotations in the mazurkas but not in his songs).

I haven't got a copy of Tomaszewski's monograph at hand. The other top contemporary authority on Chopin is Tadeusz Zielinski. You probably know that scholars very rarely agree on value-laden subjects. But just so other people are aware that there are views out there contradictory to what you have quoted, here's a bit from Zielinski's book:
"...probably his most beautiful song, entitled Piosnka litewska. Writing this Chopin couldn't have thought of it as a marginal piece. It is charmingly melodious, rich, rhythmically lithe, harmonically diverse, full of suggestive expression..." (Chopin. Życie i droga twórcza, Kraków 1993, p. 200). A 2-page analysis follows. Then: "Piosnka litewska, with its lovingly shaped form and wide palette of moving expressive gestures does not leave any doubt that had Chopin devoted more of his time to songwriting he could have become a subtle master of the genre." (p. 202) The other 2 songs Zielinski singles out elsewhere in his book are Moja pieszczotka and Melodia.

Thanks very much for your thoughts about the Chopin-Bach connection. There are times when I think I'm the only one who sees it - good to know there are others out there. I hope you're not saying that Bach didn't write well for voice, though? ;D

Regards,
Maciek
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 30, 2007, 08:29:33 AM
Quote from: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
Dear zamyrabyrd,
It was you yourself who proposed we end the subject. My previous post was not addressed to you but to the people who responded to the thread in April - they had not heard any of Chopin's songs before and were interested. Since GMG now has the functionality to allow for samples, I could at last oblige them.

Dear Maciek,
I mainly wanted you to stop those ad hominem (mulierem) attacks on me. The thread has the name "Chopin" on it, so why is surprising that someone noticed it and responded to it? And what difference would it had made if the thread was on the back page?

Quote from: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
If you don't like Chopin's songs, that's fine with me - there are many people who don't. In fact, there are many people who don't like vocal music at all, or people who don't like classical music. That's not a problem. (Not a single one of my close friends likes classical music - except for GMG friends, of course - and of the people in my professional circles no one except my PhD advisor has any interest in it.) However, your view is not the only valid one. If you want proof that people who like Chopin's songs exist - you don't have to take my word for the existence of others (quite a few of them here - every self-respecting Polish singer has recorded them) but, well, I'm one!

It's not a question or like or dislike but giving my REASONS why I didn't think this was the best example of Chopin's art
seems to have propelled you off the deep end. But this has happened here many times before, strong personal LIKES blind one to ANY criticism. So I didn't want to get caught up in an emotional imbroglio especially as yesterday I didn't have a lot of time, except to give a few opinions backed up by reasons, respectfully presented.


Quote from: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
Now, it is clear that we do not agree on Chopin's songs. You think they're worthless rubbish and a waste of time. I think they are a mixed (though admittedly very small ;D) bag containing a few extremely palatable gems. You think that Chopin wasn't a songwriter on the level of Schubert, and that Chopin could not write as well for voice as Bellini, Verdi etc. I never contradicted that statement. In fact, I don't have a fully formed opinion.

Thanks for putting words into my mouth and thoughts into my head. I thought it was strange for many years that a person who admired the Bel Canto of the early 19th century could not translate that to voice. But this exchange plus the second quote of mine forced me to think about the subject further. You thought that my contention that Franchomme showed Chopin the intricacies of 'cello playing was a joke. Actually, you twisted what I wrote and said that I stated that Franchomme showed Chopin how to compose. I gave other examples of composers who were familiar with instruments and wrote special music for them BECAUSE they had close friends or colleagues who played them.

I think I can speak as a vocal instrumentalist who can recognize if something "fits" or not vocally, over an above whether or not it has intrinsic musical value. Chopin did not seem interested in getting too deep as a composer for voice although he taught at least one of the Viardot sisters and accompanied them.

Singing Bach IS a problem for a few reasons, one being the differences of tuning back then. The passaggio in men's and women's voices good VOCAL composers know how to avoid. Actually, transposing down of Mozart's arias to where they were actually sung makes them MUCH easier to sing since they don't go back and forth over the (high) passaggio. Bach, like Beethoven tended to regard the voice instrumentally and demanded much more than a Handel who was deeply cognizant of the problems, so therefore, most, if not all of his vocal music "fits like a glove".

Quote from: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
As for the two quotations you've given us, I'd much rather hear what you think (why, for instance, do you find the 2nd sample so damning?) but they're an interesting read, thanks. I would however dismiss Nieck because 1902 was 8 years before all of Chopin's songs were actually published.

Get a grip, Maciek. Was the baby up all night or something? Do you really think I'm looking for DAMNING articles? For the first time, I started to understand that the abstract quality (and polyphony, if hidden) of Chopin's music, derived from his study of Bach, was a factor as to why he was different from the songbirds of the early 19th century.

Quote from: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
As for what Jeffrey Swann and Jack Logan, Ph.D. say, well, I have 2 (minor) qualms:
1) "Chopin drew little inspiration from literature". I'm not sure what this contention is based on. Do they give a source? Like correspondence? I was under the impression that quite the opposite was true... (I mean a general influence, not one of the type where you can say "this piece influenced this, and that that".)
2) "Chopin's songs are essentially dressed-up Polish folk songs." Though perhaps this isn't exactly a howler, it is quite inaccurate. Some of the songs have absolutely nothing folk-like about them. For example: Wojak, Przecz z moich oczu, Melodia, Moja pieszczotka, Sliczny chlopiec (these last 2 are mazurkas with no folk characteristics whatsoever). Secondly, Chopin did not confine himself to Polish folklore - there are Ukrainian elements in a few of his songs (in Dwojaki koniec and both the dumkas: Dumka and Nie ma czego trzeba). So out of the 19 songs the composer had written at least 8 do not fit that statement. Also, I'm not sure how to interpret the phrase "dressed-up Polish folk songs" - I hope it's not supposed to mean direct musical quotation because that is simply not true (there are quotations in the mazurkas but not in his songs).

They're referring to program music, I believe. Though George Sand and others tried to fit programs to Chopin's music (waltzes, preludes, etc.) in the main his compositions were not supposed to derive from literature in the same way that Schumann's works were. Some extra-musical ideas like the rattle of the chains of the Polish prisoners in the Eb Minor Polonaise, or the bells of a monastery in the nocturnes, provide color but is not the main point. The music is.

Quote from: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
Thanks very much for your thoughts about the Chopin-Bach connection. There are times when I think I'm the only one who sees it - good to know there are others out there. I hope you're not saying that Bach didn't write well for voice, though? ;D
Gee thanks  :D
As I mentioned previously the Chopin-Bach connection came to my consciousness gradually. Bach pushed tonality to its upper chromatic limits in some of his works so it's understandable that a composer like Chopin who revered the Master bravely ventured on that path way before other composers. The 25th Prelude comes to mind and the Polonaise Fantasie, the shattering glass chromaticism of the E major Etude (Op 10, no. 3), his enharmonic transformations (C# minor to Db major), the use of modes, the lydian 4th (taken from folk music), the juxtaposition of tonalities in the Mazurkas, the polyphonic texture of his later works such as the 3rd piano sonata. About the latter, even when it is not obvious, are many hidden voices, enriching his content. Chopin had a first class musical mind above all and his music will endure because of that.

Regards,
Janet
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 10:27:27 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 30, 2007, 08:29:33 AM
Quote from: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
As for the two quotations you've given us, I'd much rather hear what you think (why, for instance, do you find the 2nd sample so damning?) but they're an interesting read, thanks. I would however dismiss Nieck because 1902 was 8 years before all of Chopin's songs were actually published.
Get a grip, Maciek. Was the baby up all night or something? Do you really think I'm looking for DAMNING articles? For the first time, I started to understand that the abstract quality (and polyphony, if hidden) of Chopin's music, derived from his study of Bach, was a factor as to why he was different from the songbirds of the early 19th century.

What I had in mind was this:
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 29, 2007, 09:51:28 PM
I didn't have to search far and wide for validation of what I wrote about Chopin's songs. The second clip offers more of a musicological explanation why these didn't exactly come up to his other output.

And now I can see that what you meant was the article clipping you posted while I thought you meant was the sound clip that I posted. So it was just a misunderstanding. I thought you thought the second sound clip gave (figuratively speaking) a musicological explanation why the songs aren't good.

As for calling you "notorious" (if that's what you mean by "ad mulierem attacks"), I'm sorry if I offended you - I can edit that out if you like. It was meant to be half-serious - what follows is an obscure (I admit) private joke (probably not very funny either): "He told me also how Sir [Richard] Temple hath spoke very discontentfull words in the House about the Tryennial Bill" - The Diary of Samuel Pepys, entry for Saturday 26 March 1664.
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 30, 2007, 03:42:45 PM
Quote from: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 10:27:27 AM
"He told me also how Sir [Richard] Temple hath spoke very discontentfull words in the House about the Tryennial Bill" - The Diary of Samuel Pepys, entry for Saturday 26 March 1664.

Wow, you read the diary of Samuel Pepys??? I never got around to that, though I DID read the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin and some letters by Mozart and Beethoven.

ZB
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 30, 2007, 03:58:54 PM
Not all of it, dear God, no! ;D ;D ;D (Actually, it may be a very good read for all I know 0:)). But I have read a few bits and pieces - I have to read all sorts of strange material when researching for my thesis. Boswell would certainly be my favorite discovery in this realm of frantic sampling (never enough time).

I've read some letters by Mozart too - my wife was reading them a couple of years ago (I don't know why, she doesn't really like music of the classical period) and pointed out the "best" ones (well, you know, the most bizarre ones if measured against contemporary customs ;D).
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Ciel_Rouge on July 10, 2009, 06:04:12 PM
Bringing the thread back on track: I accidently stumbled upon Chopin's songs today on YouTube. I was completely swept away by Wiosna (Spring). There is a French version called "Fais dodo, mignonne":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHZCSbmzOF8&feature=related

Maciek, what do you think? Which one is more beautiful? As for the Liszt transcriptions (Six chants polonais) in my opinion he managed to put the voice part back into the piano world but he lost like 10 % of its beauty in the process :)

I also tend to think that a lot of people misinterpret Chopin, stripping away the delicate butterfly-like gentle beauty contained in his music and making it sound a bit boring. I suppose listening to his art songs would bring a lot of pianists back on track so that they would understand the use of rubato and what he had in mind exactly.
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 15, 2009, 11:28:05 PM
OK, I listened to "fais dodo" with an open mind, and as songs go, it is very folk like, in other words limited in range and repetitive. It doesn't sound like a composed song as with Schubert and Brahms who transformed the folk element. The melody is nice but a good tune is only raw material. Even the accompaniment is boring here which is unusual for Chopin. At least with his other limited vocal writing, the piano part is interesting. I wonder if it weren't for the name Chopin attached to this song and others by him, whether so much attention would be paid outside Poland (where one would expect a certain amount of sympathy to native composers and the texts themselves).

Chopin knew his strengths and limitations so didn't write the great Polish opera that his comtemporaries were urging him to do so.

ZB
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 04, 2009, 02:53:08 PM
What begs the question here is this: if Chopin was aware of this fundamental limitation, this inability of his to write good vocal music, then why did he so stubbornly persist to compose songs throughout his life? His earliest known attempts in the genre come from the late 1820s, his last known song was composed in 1847, only two years before his death. And there were probably about 5 more of them that unfortunately did not survive.
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 04, 2009, 02:55:15 PM
And if I may go off on a tangent (completely!), I'd also like to question (quite privately, since I'm no scholar) the story about Chopin's "contemporaries" urging him to write an opera. I've met with that story before yet somehow have never encountered any evidence that would confirm it. Who were these mysterious opera lovers exerting their pressures on the poor composer? I can think of only two such instances and both are rather specific. One is a relatively early letter from Elsner, who obviously had vested interests here, since he was an opera composer himself and maybe wanted his student to follow in his footsteps. (But for me the main interest in that letter lies not in the short "opera section" but in the general musings which show Elsner to be an exceptionally intelligent teacher, mostly intent on giving his student lots of space for individual growth. Which was at that point meaningless anyway, since Chopin had already finished studying with Elsner and had left Poland.) The other instance is one that Chopin reported himself in a letter to Delfina Potocka (which is probably a forgery anyway): Mickiewicz was purportedly trying to convince Chopin to write an opera. So I'm under the impression that the whole opera-pressures story is a tad overblown (at least some of the versions are)...

I may be misremembering things though, and I'm certainly not versed well enough in Chopin's life (or correspondence) to say anything authoritative... 0:) Just registering my doubts here.
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Anne on August 04, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Cyprian and Rose are so cute that I can't keep my eyes off them. 
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 04, 2009, 11:00:36 PM
Quote from: Maciek on August 04, 2009, 02:53:08 PM
What begs the question here is this: if Chopin was aware of this fundamental limitation, this inability of his to write good vocal music, then why did he so stubbornly persist to compose songs throughout his life? His earliest known attempts in the genre come from the late 1820s, his last known song was composed in 1847, only two years before his death. And there were probably about 5 more of them that unfortunately did not survive.

Well, maybe he was trying to develop his skills in that direction but didn't succeed or at least come up to the level of serious vocal composers. Those with an instinctive flair for writing vocal music are Handel, Alessandro Scarlatti, Mozart, Schubert, Rossini, Donizetti, Verdi and others I may have forgotten in haste. Anyone who sings probably has their own list but I imagine most of the forementioned will be on it and not Chopin. One needs an idiomatic understanding of how things work with the voice as in any other instrument: range, where the best areas are, instinctive feel for vocal phrasing, quite different from piano writing, the latter of which Chopin was an undisputed master.

You can have your opinion based on your experience, nationality, etc. And I'll have mine as a singer: his songs are simply boring. If penned by anyone else less famous, they probably would be not given anywhere near the attention they have attracted for whatever reason.
ZB



Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: The new erato on August 04, 2009, 11:35:17 PM
Valuable thread, thank you all. Threads like these are the reason I waste  ;D time on this forum.
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 05, 2009, 12:17:11 AM
ZB, don't get me wrong here, I'm not arguing with your opinion, which you're entitled to, of course. Come to think of it, a body of less than 20 very short works, especially when compared to all the other stuff Chopin wrote, isn't probably worth a protracted discussion. In point of fact, I actually agree with most of the things that you write. If you read my earlier posts (the ones from page 2) you will notice that I acknowledged at the beginning that some of Chopin's songs are poor efforts indeed (I actually explicitly mentioned "fais dodo", so there! ;)). But I disagree with the contention that "Chopin could not write well for the voice, period" - I think that 4 or 5 of his songs (and that's actually quite a high percentage! ;D) are exceptionally good, and I would in fact call 1 or 2 of them masterpieces.

However, as I said before (in 2007! ;D), I never meant to imply that Chopin was a vocal composer on par with Schubert or Verdi or Rossini or Donizetti etc. who were primarily and almost exclusively vocal composers (well, not Schubert). That would have been absurd. A statement like that would make sense in regard to Moniuszko but certainly not Chopin. I simply stated that Chopin's songs are performed much less than they deserve and that a few of the late ones should really be heard more often. Because while Chopin can't generally be compared to vocal composers, he has written a handful of pieces which do stand the comparison (IMO).

And I like arguing with your arguments - rather than your opinions themselves. For the fun/sake of an interesting conversation rather than to really convince you, which I don't think I should be even trying to do. ;D

So, to come to the arguments: the "singer's point of view" argument doesn't really convince me. I don't think all singers unanimously agree on this matter (and anyway, with very few notable exceptions, artists tend to have differing tastes, don't they?). Ewa Podleś, for example, has recorded the complete Chopin songs at least twice and selections of his songs at least twice as well, and she sings them often at recitals. That seems like a lot for someone whose discography consists of thirty-odd discs...

Of course, you can say that she is a Polish singer, so she is biased. But then I can't think of many Western singers recording any Polish song repertoire so I assume this has got more to do with language constraints. OK, I'm opening an entirely new topic/line of thought here - but it is loosely linked to the subject of this thread, so here I go.

It is for instance the general opinion that Szymanowski's vocal writing is among the best in his output - not easy to perform (the notorious extremely high pianissimo notes etc.) but still very well written for the voice (Szymanowski's sister was in their times a famous opera singer). And yet, while Szymanowski's concertos, symphonies and piano works are sometimes recorded by Western artists, I can't think of a single recording of his songs done by a Western singer. Same goes for the Lutosławski Iłłakowicz settings, usually recognized as one of his finest works from the period when he wrote them (conversely, none of Lutosławski's songs to French texts have been recorded by Polish singers!). And I'm not going to even start on the subject of Moniuszko... ::) The situation is quite different in Slavic countries, such as Russia, or Ukraine, or Belarus, where Polish vocal repertoire, including Chopin (but especially Moniuszko), is performed much more often.
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 05, 2009, 12:19:24 AM
Quote from: Anne on August 04, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Cyprian and Rose are so cute that I can't keep my eyes off them. 

Thanks, Anne. :-*
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 05, 2009, 01:13:34 AM
Really darling kids... the best time when they are that age.

Two proverbs:
and I really like the first :)
In childraising, one plus one is more than two.
This is for later on:
"When they are small they don't let you sleep, when they are big, they don't let you live."

singing mom
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 17, 2009, 01:10:18 PM
One of Szymanowski's Kurpie songs (for voice and piano) sung by Olga Pasiecznik (Jozsef Ormeny - piano). I am not particularly fond of their rendition of the whole cycle (OTOH, the choral recordings from the same disc are otherworldly) but I actually find this very beautiful (maybe it's time to reevaluate the whole disc):
http://www.youtube.com/v/yqSvLFQqpb0
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqSvLFQqpb0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqSvLFQqpb0))

What is really wonderful is that someone was thoughtful enough to post the original song in reply. It is as beautiful as Szymanowski's arrangement:
http://www.youtube.com/v/Un2DfoxIpWs
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un2DfoxIpWs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un2DfoxIpWs))
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on August 17, 2009, 01:35:58 PM
Oh, and this (Zarzyj se kuniu) is even better! There's also a version of this in the choral Kurpie songs cycle, IIRC.

http://www.youtube.com/v/nbHLeC15Ch8
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbHLeC15Ch8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbHLeC15Ch8))
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on February 21, 2010, 11:59:01 PM
This from the Introductions thread:

Quote from: abidoful on February 21, 2010, 10:24:37 AM
Hi, i am new here : )
I have been wondering why the songs of Chopin (somebody here was writing about them... MACIEJ???) arent sung more often by male-singers? His song-output is after all a very heterogenous one, and many of them a more suitable for males (Hulanka, Narzeczony, Wojak etc.).

Moreover, i think it is little inappropriate to perform them in the sequence organised by Fontana (as opus "74"). Even a chronological would be better a better one, i think.

Hi abidoful!

Very interesting what you say about the sequence, I've never thought about that - can you elaborate?

Re male vs. female recordings: not sure about the reason for this. As far as I can remember (though right now I can't take a look at the scores), they are (most of them?) written for female voice (ie. they have to be transposed for male voices). Considering the fact that the whole set fits onto one disc, and that the ones suitable for male voices are even fewer, it's not all that surprising that male singers record them rarely (or if they're do, the small selection is tucked between other pieces on recital discs and therefore difficult to spot). FWIW, I do have a couple of the songs recorded by Hiolski.

Also, and this should make you happy ;D, two of the most recent recordings that I'm aware of both feature male voices for some of the songs:

1. The most recent installment in the "The Real Chopin" series (HIP performances of Chopin) has Aleksandra Kurzak (soprano) and Mariusz Kwiecień (baritone) sing them to the accompaniment of Nelson Goerner (who presumably is playing on a historical instrument). Here's a link (http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/publications/musics/id/1105), but not all that many details there (not even the cover).

2. The most recent installment of the "National Edition" Chopin (based on the most up-to-date edition of the scores) also has both male and female singers doing the songs. It features Iwona Sobotka (soprano) and Artur Ruciński (baritone), accompanied by Ewa Pobłocka. Here's a link (http://www.bearton.pl/song_vol3_eng.htm).

Nice to see that singers with undeniable "star" status in Poland (this goes for all four, but especially Kwiecień and Sobotka) are tackling this repertoire. (Though I wouldn't mind them doing a couple of Moniuszko discs as well. ::))
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: abidoful on February 22, 2010, 05:05:17 AM
Thank you, Maciej for the information!

I really think it is a shame that the songs have almost exclusively been recorded by female-voices.
I remember when about ten years ago i started looking them and the only one i could find, was the recording of Elisabeth Söderström (not in her best  amymore then :-\) and Vladmir Ashkenazy, here in Finland it was very difficult to find them!! I guess in Poland it is different,  i  envy you guys ;D

As to the sequence, i really dont know how Fontana come to that, he probaply only collected them and never intented them to be sung as a "liederkreis"?
Consider a chronological sequence;
"Precz moich oczu!"
"Zyczenie"
"Gdzie lubi"
"Czary"
"Piosnka Litewska"
"Wojak"
"Posel"
"Hulanka"
"Narceczony"
"Smutna rzeka"
"The ring"
"Leaves are falling"
"Moja pieszcotka"
"Wiosna"
"Dumka"
"Slicny chlopiec"(not sure about the spelling)
"Dwojaki koniec"
"Nie ma czego trzeba"
and
"Melodya"

OR a male/female-sequence;
(female):
"Zyczenie"
"Gdzie lubi"
"Piosnka Litewska"(also possible for male?)
(male):
"Wojak"
"Posel"
"Hulanka"
"Narzeczony"
(female):
"Smutna rzeka"(also possible for male?)
(male):
"The ring"
"Leaves are falling"
(female):
"Moja pieszcotka"
"Wiosna"
"Sliczny chlopiec"
(male):
"Dumka"
"Dwojaki koniec"
(female):
"Nie ma czego trzeba"
  and
"Melodya"
or you could collect them to groups like,
-soldier songs and passionately patriotic songs
-love songs (both for male and female)and-sometimes witty- salon songs-
-simple folk-like songs and austere songs reminding of a religious chant

how does that sound?

abidoful
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: Maciek on February 22, 2010, 05:43:13 AM
I like the idea to group them by "theme" (love songs etc.)! 8)

FWIW, it looks like the "National Edition" recording (BeArTon) abandons opus numbers altogether. They have "WN numbers" instead. Perhaps these are strictly chronological? Their list differs from yours but maybe their sources are more up-to-date? (I'm not sure how certain the dates of composition are?)

Here is their sequence:

ŻYCZENIE Maiden`s Wish WN 21
GDZIE LUBI A Fickie Maid WN 22
POSEŁ The Messenger WN 30
CZARY Witchcraft WN 31
HULANKA Drinking Song WN 32
PRECZ Z MOICH OCZU Remembrance WN 33
WOJAK Before the Battle WN 34
PIOSNKA LITEWSKA Lithuaniam Song WN 38
SMUTNA RZEKA Traubled Waters WN 39
MAZUR WN 17 a NARZECZONY The Bridegroom`s Return WN 40
ŚPIEW Z MOGIŁY - LECI LIŚCIE Z DRZEWA Poland`s Dirge - Leaves are falling WN 49
PIERŚCIEŃ The Ring WN 50
MOJA PIESZCZOTKA My Enchantress WN 51
WIOSNA Spring WN 52
ŚLICZNY CHŁOPIEC My Beloved WN 54
DUMKA Earlier version of Faded and Vanished WN 57
NIE MA CZEGO TRZEBA Faded and Vanished WN 57
DWOJAKI KONIEC The Lovers WN 58
Z GÓR, GDZIE DŻWIGALI Bothed` neath their Crosses WN 61

I wish they listed who sings what on their site. If I see the disc in a brick and mortar store, I'll check.

Let's hope there'll be more info available about the HIP edition in due time. I'm curious if they did anything "new" with the order of songs.
Title: Re: Polish Art Song - Chopin, Moniuszko, Karlowicz, Szymanowski and others
Post by: abidoful on February 23, 2010, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: Maciek on February 22, 2010, 05:43:13 AM
I like the idea to group them by "theme" (love songs etc.)! 8)

FWIW, it looks like the "National Edition" recording (BeArTon) abandons opus numbers altogether. They have "WN numbers" instead. Perhaps these are strictly chronological? Their list differs from yours but maybe their sources are more up-to-date? (I'm not sure how certain the dates of composition are?)

Here is their sequence:

ŻYCZENIE Maiden`s Wish WN 21
GDZIE LUBI A Fickie Maid WN 22
POSEŁ The Messenger WN 30
CZARY Witchcraft WN 31
HULANKA Drinking Song WN 32
PRECZ Z MOICH OCZU Remembrance WN 33
WOJAK Before the Battle WN 34
PIOSNKA LITEWSKA Lithuaniam Song WN 38
SMUTNA RZEKA Traubled Waters WN 39
MAZUR WN 17 a NARZECZONY The Bridegroom`s Return WN 40
ŚPIEW Z MOGIŁY - LECI LIŚCIE Z DRZEWA Poland`s Dirge - Leaves are falling WN 49
PIERŚCIEŃ The Ring WN 50
MOJA PIESZCZOTKA My Enchantress WN 51
WIOSNA Spring WN 52
ŚLICZNY CHŁOPIEC My Beloved WN 54
DUMKA Earlier version of Faded and Vanished WN 57
NIE MA CZEGO TRZEBA Faded and Vanished WN 57
DWOJAKI KONIEC The Lovers WN 58
Z GÓR, GDZIE DŻWIGALI Bothed` neath their Crosses WN 61

I wish they listed who sings what on their site. If I see the disc in a brick and mortar store, I'll check.

Let's hope there'll be more info available about the HIP edition in due time. I'm curious if they did anything "new" with the order of songs.
I cant wait  having "The Real Chopin" and "National editions" (as soon as i get my salary i will buy them ;D)!

There has been some discussion why Chopin did not publish any of his songs (Liszt gave a testimony that he in fact was thinking of it). I think it was for numerous reasons. And is quite understandable really;
First, he started composing quite a few songs BEFORE he left Poland (1830 was "The Year of Songs" for Chopin :D). And the new separation from his home-land, and from the cultural milieu of Warsaw possibly could have been one reason why he did not continue composing songs as before. He btw clearly had a difficult phase after he had settled Paris; he composed no more major works calling-for example- orchestral forces and no more extended chamber works. But NEW ideas-  for a new-kind of extended solo-works, for piano-scherzos and piano-ballades- were slowly evolving (and of course he was composing the etudes).
By mid/late thirties he had established a huge reputation as a COMPOSER-OF-SOLO-WORKS-FOR-PIANO- PAR EXCELLENCE.
Perhaps his publishers never even thought of comissioning songs from him.

And there is the fact that songs are closely connected through the poetry to ones nation. They are part of ones cultural heritage. We could remind ourselves of Liszt, who as a typical cosmopolitan, composed mainly French or German texts. And DID indeed publish his songs! The most natural choise for Chopin would have been to publish his songs in Poland. And that would have been btw for some of them- for their overtly patriotic texts- impossible (due to cencorship). Songs for Chopin clearly meant a way to connect with his homeland-he was, after all an exile...

And finally, apart from the early prolific years as a song-writer (excluding the ten or so, lost Pola-songs),  Chopin composed songs quite sporadically and it would have been difficult to choose which songs would form an opus (there would have to be probably at least three or four of them to form an one, just as with the mazurkas). And  since  they were so varied  in character- and even in style- and had been composed over so many years, that would have made things no less difficult. Though, if there would have been more songs like the "Melodya" (which can stand as an excellent representative of his late style, just as easily as the Polonaise-fantaisie, the Cello-Sonata or the Nocturnes op.62 ), publishing the Songs would have become much more prevailing!

One more interesting thing about the Songs ist the fact that since the "Jakiez kwiaty, jakie wanki" has no accompaniment, it would not be totally out of place to sing it as a cappella-unisono- choir! :) And some of them would also work fairly well with an orchestral accompaniment ("Wojak" for example starting  with 2  trumpets!!). That has been done, after all  to many songs- and by other than the actual composer. For instance to the Wagner Wesendonck-lieder. And also to some songs by Strauss and Sibelius (though Sibelius was not so pleased of that , preferring the original piano-versions over the orchestral ones).

Isnt that by the way interesting how we tend to categorize composers: it has become "natural" for example to perform the Wagner Wesendonck-lieder with an orchestral-accompaniment,  but with the songs of Chopin, nobody perhaps even  ever "thought" of  it! It reminds me how somebody  was "marvelling" Chopins piano-writing in his songs (which is really  NOT particularly highlighted in his songs apart few of them, the"Wojak" and the "Narzeczony"), or  when i read somewhere someone stating that the best movement of the Bruckner quintet was also the most- "symphonic"! ;D

And why it has to be always emphasised  that Chopin wrote "almost nothing but works  for piano"? Any composer who would have written such a work as the Cello-Sonata would had to be considered also as an important chamber-music composer! :o