Poll
Question:
So?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 6
Option 2: No
votes: 23
Woody Allen once said that Mozart's Symphony 41 proved the existence of God. The reason being that the combination of the five themes in the five-part counterpoint fugato is so complex that it is impossible for the human ear to sense everything that is going on. Only God could completely grasp its profundity. I also heard just recently from several people that Mozart's 41st is so perfect that it is even scary.
Is it just a way to praise Mozart with peculiar epithets or it might have substance behind it? After all, we, humans, kinda appreciate Mozart and his music. I am pleased to think that I can comprehend Mozart's perfection. :D
Well, I would say yes if Mr. Allen had referred to the 40th. ;D 0:)
Quote from: Sarastro on September 19, 2009, 07:52:28 PM
Only God could completely grasp its profundity.
If you [Mr. Allen] assume God's existence and seem to know his listening abilities, then why try to prove it?
K. 551 just proves that there was one brilliant music composer called Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.*
*I would rather not spoil this thread by providing references to Newman's claims.
Not that any confirmation is necessary, but absolutely.
But then there are many (other) Mozart symphonies that are utter crap (sorry fanboys) A very uneven set. Which proves that Mozart too was just a human being. ;D
Quote from: Sarastro on September 19, 2009, 07:52:28 PM
Woody Allen once said that Mozart's Symphony 41 proved the existence of God. The reason being that the combination of the five themes in the five-part counterpoint fugato is so complex that it is impossible for the human ear to sense everything that is going on. Only God could completely grasp its profundity.
Given this
"explanation", I'd have to say no. There's no reason for such empty exaggerations, we already know the Jupiter Symphony is great music. 8)
Quote from: Sarastro on September 19, 2009, 07:52:28 PM
Woody Allen once said that Mozart's Symphony 41 proved the existence of God. The reason being that the combination of the five themes in the five-part counterpoint fugato is so complex that it is impossible for the human ear to sense everything that is going on. Only God could completely grasp its profundity.
The same thing happens when my wife and her sisters get to gabbin' all at once. The Lord only knows ....
I have to vote "No".
Quote from: LapsangS on September 19, 2009, 11:27:49 PM
But then there are many (other) Mozart symphonies that are utter crap (sorry fanboys)
Probably just the ones he did not write himself, - ask a certain Newmann. ;D
If Iago was with us, you just know what he would say! >:D Anyway, here's what I have to say:
That passage in the grand scheme of things is not that complex. If you want complexity, don't look at a five part fugue, instead look at a Fourier decomposition of someone talking. For a work that's supposedly too complex to hear all at once, it was still written, and people can see it in writing, and people can perform it. That doesn't exactly seem transcendent to me.
Complexity is not the same as profundity. What should be admired in great music is beauty, not complexity.
I thought Mr. Allen was a rabid unbeliever?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 20, 2009, 06:26:55 AM
I thought Mr. Allen was a rabid unbeliever?
Oh ho ho, I didn't know that! What was his game then? What did that comment really mean? Or was that not actually a quote from him but a line from a character he played in a movie? Inquiring minds want to know! :)
Quote from: Sarastro on September 19, 2009, 07:52:28 PM
Woody Allen once said that Mozart's Symphony 41 proved the existence of God. The reason being that the combination of the five themes in the five-part counterpoint fugato is so complex that it is impossible for the human ear to sense everything that is going on. Only God could completely grasp its profundity. I also heard just recently from several people that Mozart's 41st is so perfect that it is even scary.
Is it just a way to praise Mozart with peculiar epithets or it might have substance behind it? After all, we, humans, kinda appreciate Mozart and his music. I am pleased to think that I can comprehend Mozart's perfection. :D
Funny, I just finished looking at a small contrapuntal example from that symphony.
Be a little more extreme in this technique and you have Ligeti's Lontano...
I found it. Woody Allen playing the character Isaac Davis in the movie
Manhattan (which I've seen but too long ago to remember) said the following
Quote from: Isaac DavisWhy is life worth living? It's a very good question. Um... Well, There are certain things I guess that make it worthwhile. uh... Like what... okay... um... For me, uh... ooh... I would say... what, Groucho Marx, to name one thing... uh... um... and Wilie Mays... and um... the 2nd movement of the Jupiter Symphony... and um... Louis Armstrong, recording of Potato Head Blues... um... Swedish movies, naturally... Sentimental Education by Flaubert... uh... Marlon Brando, Frank Sinatra... um... those incredible Apples and Pears by Cezanne... uh... the crabs at Sam Wo's... uh... Tracy's face...
I think that somehow that became distorted over time. I think the quote might have been pulled out of thin air (not by Sarasto, I'm saying by someone in the past) as a misremembered garbled version of what was seen in the movis and when it was repeated enough it was accepted as a legitimate quote.
I might be wrong, but if I am you still know that Woodie Allen didn't say it to be taken literally either.
Rob Newman asks ... Does Mozart's Symphony No. 41 prove the existence of Mozart?
Quote from: Brian on September 20, 2009, 08:00:17 AM
Rob Newman asks ... Does Luchesi Mozart's Symphony No. 41 prove the existence of Mozart?
Fixed it. ;D
I don't know whether it "proves the existence of God", but it's a phenomenal piece. But we all knew that, right? I had trouble with the repeats when I first started listening, but continued immersion solved that.
I actually find the Heiliger Dankesang , and the preludes to Lohengrin and Tannhauser to be the most Affirming pieces for me. I've experienced something approximating a rapturous experience with those pieces, practically every time I've heard them.
But we all knew that, too, huh? ;)
Quote from: DavidW on September 20, 2009, 06:44:45 AM
I found it. Woody Allen playing the character Isaac Davis in the movie Manhattan (which I've seen but too long ago to remember) said the following
I think that somehow that became distorted over time. I think the quote might have been pulled out of thin air (not by Sarasto, I'm saying by someone in the past) as a misremembered garbled version of what was seen in the movies and when it was repeated enough it was accepted as a legitimate quote.
I might be wrong, but if I am you still know that Woodie Allen didn't say it to be taken literally either.
Still, it's good to be reminded of the greatness of Flaubert's
L'Education sentimentale, too. (It would have been much easier to mention
Mme Bovary.)
I wonder if this is another piece that Papageno loves so much he wants to shoot himself. ???
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 20, 2009, 02:24:33 PM
I wonder if this is another piece that Papageno loves so much he wants to shoot himself. ???
Does he realize how loud that would be? :o
Quote from: Dan on September 20, 2009, 03:36:01 PM
Does he realize how loud that would be? :o
Yeah, it would definitely ruin the atmosphere in the slow movement. ;)
;D
I'm sure he would wait until the end of the movement, and then take in one final breath and whisper "eros" as he shot himself. ;D
Quote from: DavidW on September 20, 2009, 04:35:04 PM
I'm sure he would wait until the end of the movement, and then take in one final breath and whisper "eros" as he shot himself. ;D
Hahahaha! Yes, I grew up listening to
Jupiter, and yet I can't say that it yields me erôs.
Quote from: DavidW on September 20, 2009, 04:35:04 PM
I'm sure he would wait until the end of the movement, and then take in one final breath and whisper "eros" as he shot himself. ;D
Did you have to give him ideas? Im afraid for my friends life now
;D
(Couldn't help myself.)
Quote from: Mozart on September 21, 2009, 08:32:29 AM
Did you have to give him ideas? Im afraid for my friends life now
;D
Don't worry my dear, I will finish my work here on earth first, and die in the hands of true beauty and perfection.
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 08:39:45 AM
Don't worry my dear, I will finish my work here on earth first, and die in the hands of true beauty and perfection.
You're going to die in the hands of Webern? Eewww that's gross. ;D
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 08:39:45 AM
Don't worry my dear, I will finish my work here on earth first, and die in the hands of true beauty and perfection.
You're going to marry and then ask your wife to kill you...?
Quote from: Greg on September 21, 2009, 09:08:35 AM
You're going to marry and then ask your wife to kill you...?
He probably won't have to ask.
Quote from: Wendell_E on September 21, 2009, 10:02:12 AM
He probably won't have to ask.
Good point.
It'd probably be a pretend marriage in the hospital, anyways, with a coma patient.
Papageno will scout hospitals for beautiful women that are in a coma and give them a wedding ring and pretend to be married to them. When they finally wake up, the first words they'll hear are "Death and Eros, my darling," and she'll proceed to strangle him or suffocate him with her pillow.
That's how ya do it, man, without even asking. It's simple. 8)
Quote from: Greg on September 21, 2009, 09:08:35 AM
You're going to marry and then ask your wife to kill you...?
What? No, I won't marry, women and their banality draw me back, they're good in intervals though.
Beauty belongs in the world of forms (ideas), so by imitating my forms in the physical world to technical perfection I will embrace absolute beauty, and then perish*.
*
Preferably from a heart attack.
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 10:29:06 AM
What? No, I won't marry, women and their banality draw me back, they're good in intervals though.
Beauty belongs in the world of forms (ideas), so by imitating my forms in the physical world to technical perfection I will embrace absolute beauty, and then perish*.
* Preferably from a heart attack.
Ummm... okay. Well, you should probably work on that "imitating beauty in the physical world..." why not pick up an instrument or write some music? You said you want to be an opera director? That type of dream sounds about as difficult to accomplish as playing basketball for a living.
Quote from: Greg on September 21, 2009, 10:41:48 AM
Ummm... okay. Well, you should probably work on that "imitating beauty in the physical world..." why not pick up an instrument or write some music? You said you want to be an opera director? That type of dream sounds about as difficult to accomplish as playing basketball for a living.
E'h, a stage director and film director, sweetheart.
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 10:45:01 AM
E'h, a stage director and film director, sweetheart.
Please... don't call me sweetheart. You're a dude. You nearly made me throw up in my mouth and cry.
Anyways, do you have a specific plan for success with both of these goals? That'd be great if you could do both, but without a plan, you're not going to go very far.
Quote from: Greg on September 21, 2009, 10:52:21 AM
Please... don't call me sweetheart. You're a dude. You nearly made me throw up in my mouth and cry.
Anyways, do you have a specific plan for success with both of these goals? That'd be great if you could do both, but without a plan, you're not going to go very far.
Of course I have a plan, study hard for 3 more years, finish an MA, polish my Italian (and maybe learn German) and then go to work at the Covent Garden.
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 10:55:26 AM
Of course I have a plan, study hard for 3 more years, finish an MA, polish my Italian (and maybe learn German) and then go to work at the Covent Garden.
Ah. like Kramer!
You'll just show up at 9 am.
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 10:55:26 AM
Of course I have a plan, study hard for 3 more years, finish an MA, polish my Italian (and maybe learn German) and then go to work at the Covent Garden.
oh good...... sounds like something, at least.
Quote from: Herman on September 21, 2009, 10:59:11 AM
Ah. like Kramer!
You'll just show up at 9 am.
Who's Kramer?
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 20, 2009, 02:24:33 PM
I wonder if this is another piece that Papageno loves so much he wants to shoot himself. ???
Oh no!! Not another thread morphing into the life and loves of Papageno!!
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 11:00:47 AM
Who's Kramer?
;D
Did they ever show Seinfeld where you live?...
Quote from: Greg on September 21, 2009, 06:33:22 PM
;D
Did they ever show Seinfeld where you live?...
I presume you mean television. No, I don't watch.
Quote from: Sarastro on September 19, 2009, 07:52:28 PM
Woody Allen once said that Mozart's Symphony 41 proved the existence of God.
Yes, but The Ring proves just the opposite.
Quote from: Joe Barron on September 22, 2009, 08:30:44 AM
Yes, but The Ring proves just the opposite.
Here's the most interesting post I've read on this topic.
Seems like this thread caused a number of forum members go to youtube and comment on this god existence topic. ;D ;D (there are very recent comments just at different versions! Bohm, Tate ;D)
Quote from: Sarastro on September 19, 2009, 07:52:28 PM
Woody Allen once said that Mozart's Symphony 41 proved the existence of God. The reason being that the combination of the five themes in the five-part counterpoint fugato is so complex that it is impossible for the human ear to sense everything that is going on. Only God could completely grasp its profundity.
By that logic Pierre Boulez *is* god, given the multilayered polyphonies of his works and the practical inability of his audiences to grasp them.
Quote from: O Mensch on September 24, 2009, 06:12:18 PM
and the practical inability of his audiences to grasp them.
But that's only because there's nothing to grasp.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 25, 2009, 12:24:48 PM
But that's only because there's nothing to grasp.
You could say the tone rows (if you're talking about his early music) are what is supposed to be grasped- but it depends on who you ask. I'm not even sure he meant it to be that way.
If counterpoint were measured in as complexity, I wonder what music would be some of the most complex? I know some of Bach would be considered some of the most complex. After that, if you throw in complexity of orchestration, the composer who wrote the most complex music that I can think of might be Mahler- BUT, that's why I have trouble completely disregarding absence of counterpoint meaning lack of complexity. If I were to compare, for example, the Berg 3 Orchestral Pieces, which is mildly contrapuntal but extremely heavy orchestration-wise to the last movement of Mahler's 5th, which is still very heavy orchestration-wise (but less so in comparison), and much more contrapuntal, I have trouble saying the last movement of Mahler's 5th is more complex. Maybe almost as... or even. I don't think that just because a line of music isn't a motif or a theme doesn't make it completely unimportant- maybe less important in comparison, but that's about it.