There have been a number of threads lately on this and other forums regarding complete LvB symphony cycles from the likes of Reiner, Cluytens, Toscanini, etc which I have replied to. Just recently a friend asked me to burn a complete set of the symphonies for him and this left me with a dilemma. I don't have a complete set that I am totally satisfied with, each one I think of has at least one dud performance. The nearest I could get was Cluytens but his 5th is rather wishy washy and his 8th uninspiring. Monteux is excellent apart from his 9th and the same can be said of Walter. So I decided to make a compilation of my favourite recording of each symphony and this was what i initially came up with.
#1 Toscanini
#2 Cluytens
#3 Toscanini
#4 Walter
#5 Karajan
#6 Walter
#7 Monteux
#8 Fricsay
#9 Fricsay
When I realised that he wanted them all in stereo I had to substitute Reiner for #1 and the Leibowitz for the Eroica - both easy choices. Given the same task, what would you put together?
did Fricsay do a complete cycle with RIAS?
To my knowledge he didn't. From what I can glean from the internet there was no 2nd, 4th or 6th.
1 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin
2 - Szell/Cleveland
3 - Bernstein/New York Phil
4 - Kleiber/Bayerisches Staatsorchester
5 - Szell/Concertgebouw
6 - Klemperer/Philharmonia
7 - Norrington/London Classical Players
8 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin
9 - Norrington/London Classical Players (or, for a non-HIP approach, Böhm/Vienna Phil)
Sarge
As of today:
1 - Bernstein / NYPO
2 - Reiner / Pittsburgh SO
3 - Giulini / LAPO
4 - C Kleiber / Concertgebouw
5 - Toscanini / NBC SO (1939 / M&A)
6 - C Kleiber / BRSO
7 - Abbado / BPO
8 - Walter / NYPO (1942)
9 - Fricsay / BPO
I haven't heard a lot of the recordings mentioned above and might well change the following list if I did:
1 - Toscanini BBCSO '37
2 - pass: haven't listened to this for years :-[
3 - Scherchen VSOO '58
4 - Weingartner LPO '33
5 - De Sabata NYPO '50
6 - Furtwängler BPO '54
7 - Cantelli PO 56
8 - Casals Marlboro Festival Orch 60+?
9 - Furtwängler BPO '42
Quote from: mjwal on July 07, 2010, 03:30:45 AM
I haven't heard a lot of the recordings mentioned above and might well change the following list if I did:
1 - Toscanini BBCSO '37
2 - pass: haven't listened to this for years :-[
3 - Scherchen VSOO '58
4 - Weingartner LPO '33
5 - De Sabata NYPO '50
6 - Furtwängler BPO '54
7 - Cantelli PO 56
8 - Casals Marlboro Festival Orch 60+?
9 - Furtwängler BPO '42
You know (or maybe you don't) that there have been a few new Beethoven recordings made since the 1950s ;D ;)
Seriously, I can't fault your list in any way except quality of sound.
Sarge
Sarge quoth
Seriously, I can't fault your list in any way except quality of sound.
Sound, sir - what is't but a burble on the raddled lips of time?
symphony 4 Kleiber
symphony 5 Jochum BP (1953)
symphony 7 Fricsay RIAS
You haven't heard the second until you've heard Immerseel.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RZ63526SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Wow, so many recordings I haven't heard! That's good, it means many new discoveries ahead. :)
No 1 - Dausgaard (Simax), Mackerras (Hyperion)
No 2 - P. Jarvi (RCA)
No 3 - Dausgaard (Simax), Norrington SWR (Hanssler)
No 4 - Hogwood (L'Oiseau Lyre)
No 5 - Immerseel (Zig Zag)
No 6 - Barenboim (Teldec), P. Jarvi (RCA)
No 7 - Kleiber (DG), Abbado (DG), Dausgaard (Simax)
No 8 - Barenboim (Teldec), Karajan '62 (DG)
No 9 - Karajan '63 (DG), Abbado (DG), Gardiner (Archiv)
Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2010, 02:40:18 PM
Wow, so many recordings I haven't heard! That's good, it means many new discoveries ahead. :)
No 1 - Dausgaard (Simax), Mackerras (Hyperion)
No 2 - P. Jarvi (RCA)
No 3 - Dausgaard (Simax), Norrington SWR (Hanssler)
No 4 - Hogwood (L'Oiseau Lyre)
No 5 - Immerseel (Zig Zag)
No 6 - Barenboim (Teldec), P. Jarvi (RCA)
No 7 - Kleiber (DG), Abbado (DG), Dausgaard (Simax)
No 8 - Barenboim (Teldec), Karajan '62 (DG)
No 9 - Karajan '63 (DG), Abbado (DG), Gardiner (Archiv)
I don't need another Beethoven cycle, let alone four, but I would like to have one of the new ones (when they're completed and have been boxed up). Choices are Norrington, Järvi, Vänskä and Dausgaard. If you could only have one cycle, which would it be Brian? (I'm asking you because I think you're one of the few who has heard at least some of each. I assume Jens would choose Järvi.)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 02:47:32 PM
I don't need another Beethoven cycle, let alone four, but I would like to have one of the new ones (when they're completed and have been boxed up). Choices are Norrington, Järvi, Vänskä and Dausgaard. If you could only have one cycle, which would it be Brian? (I'm asking you because I think you're one of the few who has heard at least some of each. I assume Jens would choose Järvi.)
Sarge
If I could have only one of those four, I would choose ... Abbado! (Red box) As you can see above, Abbado is hardly ever tops (aside from an exhilarating 9) but he's so fantastically consistent - there is no dud, no even average performance. Between the four you actually DID ask about, I actually find Vänskä quite uneven (he's very Noble and his orchestra very precise - so not very human but very pretty. I have 1, 2, 6, 7), and Norrington SWR, already in a box, is good in 3, 7, and 9, but I haven't heard the others. Now Järvi's, of which I have 1-8, is almost exactly the same in approach to Dausgaard's: quasi-HIP performances with crack chamber orchestras, in performances that leave scorch marks behind with their intensity. The first two chords of Järvi's Second, for instance, make me jump about a foot in the air. Overall, Dausgaard has an extra bit of "magic" in 1-3 and 7 - they feel like premiere performances, so enthusiastic and exciting and exhilarating - but Järvi is the superior choice for 4-6, which Dausgaard kind of whiffs on. Two great Eights, advantage Dausgaard because he doesn't rush the second movement.
That doesn't answer your question at all, does it!? ;D Anyhow, if you want to enjoy the best of the "supercharged chamber orchestra" approach, the two CDs to start with are probably Dausgaard's Third and Järvi's 2/6 coupling (or his 4/7 if those works are more appealing to you).
I've got a funny relationship with Dausgaard's Eroica. When I'm listening to it, I think it's perfect. Then I turn it off and start thinking, "Nah, it can't be as good as my imagination says," and getting skeptical, and finally convincing myself that it must not have been great, just hit me at the right time. Finally I decide to listen again to cure myself of the delusion. Then I hit play and the whole thing starts over. This has happened at least a dozen, maybe two dozen times.
The cycle just happened again - writing that post, I was plagued with doubts. I turned it on. For a few seconds my brain was saying, "See? Nothing miraculous yet. The sound might be better." And then I realized that my body was swaying along to the music ... and that I was smiling and shutting my eyes and hearing how one instrument or another - oboe, or double bass, or whoever - articulated a phrase, or even a single note, and grinning again.
Yeah, it's that kind of CD. :)
If I had a friend who wanted a complete set of Beethoven symphonies, I wouldn't give him my favorite performances of each symphony, because those change depending on my mood.
I would give him the cycles which I think are the most flexibly played, and the closest to what I think is Beethoven's vision, with Beethoven's tempos (i.e. none of the old-school Klemp, Furt, Walter, Szell, however interesting, with one exception to follow).
These cycles are Harnoncourt and Mackerras (Hyperion)--both modern, live recordings. To put it very simply, the former for brooding intensity, and the latter for energy and embracing heroics.
I would also throw in Fricsay's 9th, because it is incredibly solid, in good sound, with great singing (although I don't think that's really the point at all) and no distortions. And Kubrick chose it, so it must be good. Maybe, maybe I would throw in Walter's 6th. Furtwangler's 1942 and 1954 9ths are amazing, mystical, cosmic, but I doubt either represents what Beethoven had in mind with "Ode to Joy," certainly not 1942.
Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2010, 03:06:02 PM
Between the four you actually DID ask about...That doesn't answer your question at all, does it!?
Thanks, Brian. I was hoping for an easy answer but didn't really expect one. I guess I'll have to buy them all, although that's a depressing solution. It isn't the cost that worries me...it's simply the psychological stress of being inundated with
more recordings :D If I were twenty years younger it wouldn't matter.
Sarge
This changes depending on when you ask me, but right now I'd say:
1 Antonini
2 Barenboim
3 Antonini
4 Cluytens
5 Haitink/RCO
6 Barenboim
7 Kleiber
8 Karajan '63
9 Solti II
Quote from: Mensch on July 12, 2010, 07:32:21 AM
This changes depending on when you ask me, but right now I'd say:
9 Solti II
Is Solti II with Jessye Norman?
Sarge
Quote from: Mensch on July 12, 2010, 11:34:57 AM
Yes.
Ah...one of my favorites too. Good choice.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 12, 2010, 02:01:35 PM
Ah...one of my favorites too. Good choice.
Sarge
The only one where the singers actually manage to sing what's written and stay together while doing it! ;) Solti is great for un-messing pre-programmed train wrecks. That last movement just wasn't meant to be sung... it was written for string quartet or something, not for human singers.
Quote from: Holden on July 05, 2010, 06:58:16 PM
There have been a number of threads lately on this and other forums regarding complete LvB symphony cycles from the likes of Reiner, Cluytens, Toscanini, etc which I have replied to. Just recently a friend asked me to burn a complete set of the symphonies for him and this left me with a dilemma. I don't have a complete set that I am totally satisfied with, each one I think of has at least one dud performance. The nearest I could get was Cluytens but his 5th is rather wishy washy and his 8th uninspiring. Monteux is excellent apart from his 9th and the same can be said of Walter. So I decided to make a compilation of my favourite recording of each symphony and this was what i initially came up with.
#1 Toscanini
#2 Cluytens
#3 Toscanini
#4 Walter
#5 Karajan
#6 Walter
#7 Monteux
#8 Fricsay
#9 Fricsay
When I realised that he wanted them all in stereo I had to substitute Reiner for #1 and the Leibowitz for the Eroica - both easy choices. Given the same task, what would you put together?
1. Krips/LSO
2. Blomstedt/SD
3. Cluytens/BP
4. Szell/CO
5. Kleiber/WP
6. Mackerras/RLPO
7. Konwitschny/GL
8. Leibowitz/RPO
9. Leinsdorf/BSO
1. Ansermet or Leibowitz
2. Ansermet or Leibowitz
3. Ansermet or Leibowitz
4. Ansermet, Leibowitz, or Suitner
5. Ansermet
6. Ansermet
7. Ansermet
8. Leibowitz
9. Suitner or Leibowitz
1) Solti II, CSO
2) Solti II, CSO
3) Furtwangler 1951?
4) Klemperer
5) Reiner
6) Szell
7) Solti
8) Szell
9) Tennstedt, London Phil.
Reviving this old thread - I am looking for the best sounding version of Toscanini's 1939 Beethoven cycle, though I realize "best sounding" is a euphemism in this case :) There are, of course, the old and OOP Naxos discs that were done by Richard Caniell, and also the 2013 Music & Arts set and the 2016 Immortal Performances set, again done by Richard Caniell. The M&A set is not complete and uses "harmonic balancing" mastering by Aaron Z. Snyder, which seems to resemble Pristine/Andrew Rose's mastering style, a style I don't like ("ambient stereo" in pre-stereo recordings, no thanks), while the IP set uses CD-Rs, no CDs, and my personal experiences with CD-Rs are not that positive.
Any recommendations and opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Quote from: J.A.W. on March 28, 2017, 04:26:07 PM
Reviving this old thread - I am looking for the best sounding version of Toscanini's 1939 Beethoven cycle, though I realize "best sounding" is a euphemism in this case :) There are, of course, the old and OOP Naxos discs that were done by Richard Caniell, and also the 2013 Music & Arts set and the 2016 Immortal Performances set, again done by Richard Caniell. The M&A set is not complete and uses "harmonic balancing" mastering by Aaron Z. Snyder, which seems to resemble Pristine/Andrew Rose's mastering style, a style I don't like ("ambient stereo" in pre-stereo recordings, no thanks), while the IP set uses CD-Rs, no CDs, and my personal experiences with CD-Rs are not that positive.
Any recommendations and opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Anyone?
Quote from: J.A.W. on April 12, 2017, 12:43:55 PM
Anyone?
Well, no recommendation, and very little opinion I'm afraid, but what I'd like to know is the quality and provenance of Andromeda set, i.e. where they've stolen their transfers from on this occasion?
I had one CD of the Naxos series, unfortunately I've culled it (shouldn't have), and as far as I remember sound wasn't great but wasn't unpleasant and definitely was listenable.
As for M&A I must say I'm also a bit wary about their har-bal process which, from admittedly very little info, seems to include a lot of conjecture. But the results do sound pretty impressive.