GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Cato on September 21, 2007, 06:24:19 AM

Title: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 21, 2007, 06:24:19 AM
STOCKHAUSEN'S SPACESHIP

The Wall Street Journal carried a rave review for a live performance of Stockhausen's Stimmung.

It mentioned the 2007 recording of the work, but ultimately recommended the original one under Stockhausen's direction from his DGG days (daze?).

As usual, the article included a wistful, melancholy mention of the composer who seemingly has gone berserk in his middle age and dotage, communing with other planets, composing the (manic?) LICHT operas, etc.

It also mentioned the curiosity of a composer who claims to be cutting edge and high-tech, but whose recent works are now available from his German mountain top only via snail mail.    :o

Should Stockhausen not be the Stravinsky or the Shostakovich of the age?  What happened?!

Is he so far above us    0:)    that we just have not caught up with him?

Or is it the other direction?    >:D      :o

And did he really come into contact with aliens...or a brain glitch?

http://www.stockhausen.org/
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 21, 2007, 07:42:38 AM
Shouldn't this thread be called Stockhausen's Helicopter ?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 21, 2007, 07:45:04 AM
Stockhausen's OOP Outlet  ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on September 21, 2007, 07:57:39 AM
Shouldn't this thread be called Stockhausen's Helicopter ?

 ;D  ;D  ;D

To briefly address some of Cato's original post, I think Stimmung is one of his most fascinating pieces.  I heard the original recording years ago (OOP and not re-released on CD, I guess?), but haven't heard the more recent Hyperion recording yet, with Singcircle.

But I have such mixed feelings about his work.  Some of it astounds me; some of it makes me scratch my head.  Whether it means he's "ahead of his time" I have no idea at this point.

A favorite concert memory: Maurizio Pollini performing at Carnegie Hall back in 1989, starting with Brahms's Four Piano Pieces and Schoenberg's Three Piano Pieces.  On the second half of the program he did Stockhausen's Piano Pieces 5 and 9, followed by the Beethoven Hammerklavier.  Quite an evening!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 21, 2007, 10:41:31 AM
Excerpt from an interview with Stockhausen:  (Cato's translation)

P.I. - But you have defined a new concept of music.

Stockhausen - There was indeed "new music." The concept became especially important after the war.  But most of the so-called new composers still write quite conventionally in the meantime.  Even my own students - I am quite amazed by this - stick to traditional performance practices and write pieces in the old styles, mixing everything up.  They sprinkle in some paprika now and then, but the trend on the whole planet is to write in a neo-romantic style.  And there are even deluded ones who write Crossover Music, so they can get performed.

P.I. - Isn't that important to you?

Stockhausen - No.

P.I. - For whom do you compose then?

Stockhausen - I compose.  I've never ever said for whom.  I like it of course when some fellow musicians, whom I know and perform with, find a work good or interesting.  But I really don't know what the world might think about it.  In any case my works are finding a sympathetic public in increasing measure.  The halls are full.  Resistance comes from the concert organizers - and I understand it - because the works demand long rehearsals and because of the costs of equipment, loudspeakers, mixers, etc....

P.I. - You have once stated that the highest calling a human being can have is to be a musician.

Stockhausen - I am still of that opinion today, especially with a view of the future...It ought to happen that everyone learns singing and speaks in an artistic, melodious style...The individualized human of the future will be a singer, a musician, der thinks and feels everything musically.  Because music is the finest, most ethereal, most essential (non-material) language that exists.  For me music is the oscillations of extraterretrial worlds, bodies and elements.



http://www.planet-interview.de/interviews/pi.php?interview=stockhausen-karlheinz


Quote
Aber Sie haben einen neuen Musikbegriff definiert.
Stockhausen: Es gab ja "Neue Musik". Der Begriff ist nach dem Krieg ganz besonders wichtig geworden. Aber die meisten so genannten Neue Musik-Komponisten schreiben mittlerweile ganz konventionell. Selbst meine Schüler - ich bin ganz überrascht - passen sich der traditionellen Aufführungspraxis an und schreiben Stücke im alten Stil, mischen alles durcheinander. Die tun hier und da ein bisschen Paprika hinein, aber alles in allem ist der Trend auf der ganzen Welt zur Zeit, im neoromantischen Stil zu komponieren. Und es gibt ja noch viele Verrückte, die Crossover-Musik schreiben, um oft aufgeführt zu werden.
Ist Ihnen das denn nicht wichtig?
Stockhausen: Nein.
Für wen komponieren Sie dann?
Stockhausen: Ich komponiere. Doch ich habe noch nie gesagt, für wen. Ich freue mich natürlich, wenn einige Musiker, die ich gut kenne und mit denen ich zusammen musiziere, das interessant oder gut finden. Aber darüber hinaus weiß ich ja gar nicht, was die Welt denkt. Allerdings finden meine Werke in zunehmendem Maße ein großes und sehr sympathisches Publikum. Die Säle sind voll, wenn ich Konzerte gebe. Die Widerstände von den Veranstaltern - und das verstehe ich sehr gut - kommen, weil die Werke zu viele Proben verlangen und wegen der Kosten für Lautsprecher, Mischpult...


Sie haben mal gesagt, "Die wichtigste Berufung des Menschen kann nur sein, Musiker zu werden."
Stockhausen: Der Meinung bin ich noch heute, vor allem im Hinblick auf die Zukunft...  Es sollte dahin kommen, dass jeder singen lernt und in einer künstlerischen, gesanglichen Art spricht.... Der differenziertere Mensch der Zukunft wird ein Sänger sein, ein Musiker, der alles in musikalischen Kategorien fühlt und denkt. Denn Musik ist die feinste, die ätherischste, die immateriellste Sprache, die es überhaupt gibt. Für mich sind die Schwingungen auch der außerirdischen Welten, Körper und Elemente - Musik.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Josquin des Prez on September 21, 2007, 04:17:41 PM
Am i the only one who thinks Stockhausen should be taken captive and lopped into the sun along with his music? He even has a spaceship for the purpose, how convenient.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Kullervo on September 21, 2007, 04:46:13 PM
Am i the only one who thinks Stockhausen should be taken captive and lopped into the sun along with his music? He even has a spaceship for the purpose, how convenient.

Probably not, but don't you think murder is a bit drastic?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: longears on September 21, 2007, 05:19:55 PM
 "The fool!  The meddling idiot!  As though his ape's brain could contain the secrets of the KRELL!!!" - Walter Pidgeon as Morbius in Forbidden Planet

(http://www.krellonline.com/images/p_EVO_lg_F.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: greg on September 21, 2007, 05:36:05 PM
Shouldn't this thread be called Stockhausen's Helicopter ?
how about Stockhausen's Stalkers?
a place for hardcore Stockhausen fans
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Kullervo on September 21, 2007, 05:42:51 PM
Stockhausen's Steakhouse

(http://z.about.com/d/esl/1/0/K/3/tip_steak.jpg)

FREE APPETIZER WITH THE PURCHASE OF ENTREE OF LESSER VALUE

Offer good while supplies last.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: greg on September 21, 2007, 05:45:07 PM
Stockhausen's Stool


(no picture provided, but he does like to make charts of the nutrients that make up the overall contents and texture. and flavor)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on September 21, 2007, 06:36:47 PM
STOCKHAUSEN'S SPACESHIP

The Wall Street Journal carried a rave review for a live performance of Stockhausen's Stimmung.

It mentioned the 2007 recording of the work, but ultimately recommended the original one under Stockhausen's direction from his DGG days (daze?).

As usual, the article included a wistful, melancholy mention of the composer who seemingly has gone berserk in his middle age and dotage, communing with other planets, composing the (manic?) LICHT operas, etc.

It also mentioned the curiosity of a composer who claims to be cutting edge and high-tech, but whose recent works are now available from his German mountain top only via snail mail.    :o

Should Stockhausen not be the Stravinsky or the Shostakovich of the age?  What happened?!

Is he so far above us    0:)    that we just have not caught up with him?

Or is it the other direction?    >:D      :o

And did he really come into contact with aliens...or a brain glitch?

http://www.stockhausen.org/

I have often considered Stockhausen to be the Scriabin, not the Stravinsky or Shostakovich, of our time. That isn't saying that I dislike Stockhausen; on the contrary, many of his works I would not want to be without. Inori, Michaels Reise, Mantra, Lichter-Wasser, Refrain, the list could just go on. But Scriabin sought to compose some sort of multi-media gesamtkunstwerk; so does Stockhausen. Scriabin thought of himself as somehow supernatural; so, evidently, does Stockhausen, though he uses sci-fi terminology rather than theosophist. Scriabin searched for new forms, which often seem bizarre and inchoate; Stockhausen, ditto.  Scriabin, in the end, was essentially a unique, isolated incident with no "Scriabin school" left in his wake; it seems Stockhausen, by his own choice, is well on the way to becoming no more than that. Only time will tell.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: greg on September 21, 2007, 06:38:15 PM
yeah, somehow i don't think there's going to be many follow-ups to the Helicopter Quartet
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: longears on September 21, 2007, 06:50:08 PM
I have often considered Stockhausen to be the Scriabin, not the Stravinsky or Shostakovich, of our time. That isn't saying that I dislike Stockhausen; on the contrary, many of his works I would not want to be without. Inori, Michaels Reise, Mantra, Lichter-Wasser, Refrain, the list could just go on. But Scriabin sought to compose some sort of multi-media gesamtkunstwerk; so does Stockhausen. Scriabin thought of himself as somehow supernatural; so, evidently, does Stockhausen, though he uses sci-fi terminology rather than theosophist. Scriabin searched for new forms, which often seem bizarre and inchoate; Stockhausen, ditto.  Scriabin, in the end, was essentially a unique, isolated incident with no "Scriabin school" left in his wake; it seems Stockhausen, by his own choice, is well on the way to becoming no more than that. Only time will tell.

Nice analogy.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 22, 2007, 06:49:58 AM
I've heard Stockhausen give pre-concert speeches in London three or four times now. On each occasion, he was lucid, amusing, enthusiastic, unpretentious and, above all, quite sane. I have no idea why comes across as such a basket case in interviews.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: uffeviking on September 22, 2007, 06:52:19 AM
In German we say: "Er nimmt uns auf die Schippe!"

Translate: "He is putting us on!"  ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 22, 2007, 11:09:48 AM
In German we say: "Er nimmt uns auf die Schippe!"

Translate: "He is putting us on!"  ;D

Das könnte sein!     :o

I have an interview of Stockhausen when he was in his early 60's, and he comes across as rather matter-of-fact about lunatic things e.g. his obsession with basset horns, earth mothers, etc.

One of my favorite sections of the LICHT operas is in "Michaels Examen" where Michael hops around sing-songing "O Basset Horn, Basset Horn!"   

Unglaublich!    :D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: longears on September 22, 2007, 11:16:33 AM
In German we say: "Er nimmt uns auf die Schippe!"

Translate: "He is putting us on!"  ;D
Auf Englisch sagen wir: "He's shoveling scheiss."

(Or maybe: "He's a french fry short of a happy meal.")
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: uffeviking on September 22, 2007, 11:56:33 AM
You got your languages mixed up, me thinks! ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on September 22, 2007, 06:17:57 PM

P.I. - For whom do you compose then?

Stockhausen - I compose.  I've never ever said for whom.  I like it of course when some fellow musicians, whom I know and perform with, find a work good or interesting.  But I really don't know what the world might think about it.  In any case my works are finding a sympathetic public in increasing measure.  The halls are full.  Resistance comes from the concert organizers - and I understand it - because the works demand long rehearsals and because of the costs of equipment, loudspeakers, mixers, etc....

For whom does he compose? Certainly for me (and I know that fortunately I am not the only one ;)). With a few exceptions, Stockhausen’s works are consistently among the music of the last 50 years that gives me the most enjoyment and impresses me the most. This holds up until his most recent music. For example, Himmelfahrt (Ascension) (2004/5) for synthesizer (or organ), soprano and tenor, and Licht-Bilder (2002) for tenor, trumpet, basset-horn, flute and ring-modulation are, in my view, simply in a league of their own when it comes to not just quality, but also sheer originality of ideas and the authoritative execution of these in the finest detail and with sublime compositional technique.

One of my favorite at-home concerts is currently Gruppen followed by Himmelfahrt. Both works feature polyphony of strands in different tempi – in the latter, the two hands of the keyboard player play in different simultaneous tempi (!) – and both employ the concept in distinct ways. While Gruppen is gestural music, Himmelfahrt applies a more melodic approach. Both works offer complex listening experiences. At the end of such a “concert” I am exhausted but happily so.

The Helicopter Quartet – alas the only more recent work of Stockhausen that is available outside Stockhausen-Verlag – certainly does not tell the whole story about his more recent music.

1. Apart from the very good beginning and the terrific end (ascension and descent) I find it most of the time boring, and I seem to share this experience with many others. I have had some moments where I thought I had started to like the music, but then, after listening to some other recent Stockhausen music, like the two above mentioned works, I really couldn’t bear it.

2. The extravagant perfomance requirements are the most outrageous in Stockhausen’s oeuvre and not typical. While other works are difficult to perform not just in terms of technique but also in terms of costs, none is of such a forbidding nature. And many recent works, not just the composer’s own chamber-music-like excerpts from Licht, but also his compositions from the new Klang cycle, are relatively easy to perform in monetary terms.

I've heard Stockhausen give pre-concert speeches in London three or four times now. On each occasion, he was lucid, amusing, enthusiastic, unpretentious and, above all, quite sane. I have no idea why comes across as such a basket case in interviews.

Yes, in real-life Stockhausen is a very nice, un-arrogant and down-to-earth person – I have experienced this during the summer courses, in personal conversations and in exchange of letters.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on September 22, 2007, 06:22:12 PM
By the way, nice title for this thread, Cato.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: bwv 1080 on September 22, 2007, 07:10:09 PM
Stockhausen wrote on of the few early electronic pieces I really like - Gesang der Jünglinge

It is available to listen here:

http://www.medienkunstnetz.de/werke/gesang-der-juenglinge/audio/1/ (http://www.medienkunstnetz.de/werke/gesang-der-juenglinge/audio/1/)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 24, 2007, 03:50:20 AM
By the way, nice title for this thread, Cato.

No problem!

And please tell us more about your personal conversations with Herr Stockhausen!

Or are they too personal?!   0:)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 26, 2007, 06:18:54 AM
Concerning Stockhausen's ideas on various concepts:

http://www.furious.com/PERFECT/stockhauseninterview.html

See above for the entire interview.


Q: How do you see the dichotomy between noise and sound?

A. When I worked in the electronic music studio I was, as I said before, also studying phonetics. And in phonetics there is at the beginning only quantity, which means how many vibrations are superimposed, how close together they are in order to produce a voiceless consonant, a half-consonant, or a vowel. And when I started to study phonetics, I made a whole series of sounds between what we call "pure sounds", like sin-wave sounds, and spectra, which are harmonic spectra of overtones of harmonics. And on the other hand, colored noise, for example. So I used a series from one of these sound elements to another one in order to transform one into the other. That is very interesting to me.

I became aware that all sounds can make meaningful language. There's a tribe in Africa, the Xhosa; they make only clicks (imitates sound). So I used these clicks, and I had even to transcribe the language; I didn't know at all what it meant. Language is already extremely rich concerning all kinds of sounds. We can sneeze, we can bark, we can make or imitate all the sounds in a factory, traffic, animals, etc. And I became aware that this can all become musical material. Already after 22, 23 years I knew that the traditional limitation of musical sounds was finished and that we enter now a new era where everything, all the acoustic world, can be transformed into art. That is the point. So that in the future, when we walk through an airport or a large hall, what we hear is artfully shaped as sound, and not just a mixture of garbage. I've even proposed at a certain moment in my life to invent "sound swallowers" so that one could make certain sections in a city silent. There would be microphones everywhere with a computer. One produces the counter-wave of the sounds which are produced. And then, even if you speak, one cannot hear anything. And there should be only areas in a city where you can talk or scream, whatever you like, but in most of the parts there would be no sound, because there would be sound swallowers everywhere.


Q: What is the role of intuition in your work?

A. Intuition transforms. . . every normal action into something special that one doesn't know oneself. So I am a craftsman, I can start working with sounds, with apparatuses and find all sorts of new combinations. But when I want to create something that amazes me and moves me, I need intuition. I don't mean an intellectual idea. I need a sound vision, or I need to become involved, to come into a state where I do something without knowing why I do it. Very often everything else is in order, but then I touch my well-constructed music or section of music, and I change something; and as a matter of fact, I change what I thought was very well constructed, because I feel I must do that. And then something happens every now and then which is amazing and which is also for me unknown. Intuition comes, according to my own experience, from a higher world. It is an influence from the cosmos, into our human mind.

Q: So this involves a lot of mathematics?

A. No, mathematics is a mixture of brain work, and in the best results, of intuition. One needs to have an intuitive flash of light in order to find a new formula, which then can produce a lot of derivations and results. But everyone needs intuition, not only artists, if one wants to go beyond the normal animal nature that we have.


The reference to the Xhosa tribe explains sections of the LICHT-cycle where characters are clicking and popping and making other mouth noises which sound odd , if not obscene!    $:)



Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: uffeviking on September 26, 2007, 07:16:49 PM
Where can I buy a sound swallower? I wonder if he ever followed up with the idea and put them on the shelve of an internet Karl-Heinz-Öko-Store. All kinds of areas in my town I want soundless!  ;D

Thanks for the interview post!   8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 27, 2007, 03:54:10 AM
Where can I buy a sound swallower? I wonder if he ever followed up with the idea and put them on the shelve of an internet Karl-Heinz-Öko-Store. All kinds of areas in my town I want soundless!  ;D

Thanks for the interview post!   8)

No problem!   8)

And the idea Stockhausen mentions seems to be the same one behind the Bose "Noise-Cancelling Headphones": they work best of course when the noise is fairly uniform.  I have a pair for airplane rides.

I do think "noise-cancelling" is overstated: noise-reducing would be more on target.

http://www.bose.com/controller?event=view_product_page_event&product=qc2_headphones_index
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on September 27, 2007, 04:31:28 AM
Your noise on this flight has been cancelled . . . .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mark G. Simon on September 27, 2007, 05:01:35 AM
I have an interview of Stockhausen when he was in his early 60's, and he comes across as rather matter-of-fact about lunatic things e.g. his obsession with basset horns,

From my point of view, an obsession with basset horns is quite understandable, commendable in fact.

But isn't Stockhausen more obsessed with the basset horn player?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 27, 2007, 06:55:47 AM
From my point of view, an obsession with basset horns is quite understandable, commendable in fact.

But isn't Stockhausen more obsessed with the basset horn player?

I have indeed wondered about the cultic aspect of Stockhausen and his basset-horn beauty Kathinka Pasveer, along with the others (Suzanne Stephens, etc.)

For pictures and and interesting commentary:

  http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco10/stockhausen/39.html
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on September 27, 2007, 07:15:54 AM
Music of the (pa)Sveers?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on September 27, 2007, 08:30:16 AM
I have indeed wondered about the cultic aspect of Stockhausen and his basset-horn beauty Kathinka Pasveer, along with the others (Suzanne Stephens, etc.)

For pictures and and interesting commentary:

  http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco10/stockhausen/39.html

The basset-horn beauty (basset-horn, clarinet, bass clarinet) is Suzanne Stephens, Kathinka Pasveer is the flute beauty (flute, alto flute, picccolo flute).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 27, 2007, 09:37:34 AM
The basset-horn beauty (basset-horn, clarinet, bass clarinet) is Suzanne Stephens, Kathinka Pasveer is the flute beauty (flute, alto flute, picccolo flute).

Okay, I still wonder about Stockhausen's capricorny capacity up there on that Zukunftsmusikberg in Kuerten, Deutschland!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on September 28, 2007, 08:26:08 AM
Via a great blog called The Rambler, here's Paul Hillier in The Guardian (http://johnsonsrambler.wordpress.com/2007/09/28/paul-hillier-on-stimmung/), talking about Stimmung.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: longears on September 29, 2007, 06:28:31 AM
Via a great blog called The Rambler, here's Paul Hillier in The Guardian (http://johnsonsrambler.wordpress.com/2007/09/28/paul-hillier-on-stimmung/), talking about Stimmung.
Interesting article, Bruce.  I used to love Stimmung, but probably haven't heard it in 30+ years.  Hillier's new recording might prove very interesting, indeed!  Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on October 01, 2007, 03:54:52 AM
Interesting article, Bruce.  I used to love Stimmung, but probably haven't heard it in 30+ years.  Hillier's new recording might prove very interesting, indeed!  Thanks for the heads up.

Dude!  Is that Professor Irwin Corey under your name?!   :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: longears on October 01, 2007, 05:10:27 AM
Who else but the man who accepted the National Book Award for Gravity's Rainbow on behalf of Thomas Pynchon?

(http://www.irwincorey.org/campaign/cbutton.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on October 02, 2007, 06:18:07 AM
Who else but the man who accepted the National Book Award for Gravity's Rainbow on behalf of Thomas Pynchon?

(http://www.irwincorey.org/campaign/cbutton.jpg)

Somehow completely appropriate for some of Stockhausen's pronouncements throughout the years!

And what is he up to these days?

[Stockhausen] has already started on another vast project. It's called Klang ("Sound"), a cycle of works based on the 24 hours of the day. The first part is already finished and will premiere in Milan Cathedral on May 5. As part of his research for the other 23 pieces, Stockhausen says he is studying the different qualities possessed by the various hours of the day, as if savouring their tastes before capturing them in sound.

It seems a breathtakingly audacious undertaking for someone of his age but he seems to need these huge tests. You get the sense of a man actually trying to peer into time itself.

"To compose a large project of music is fascinating because I am divining, as I have in all my works since the beginning, larger organisms from nucleuses," he explains.

"Each work is one nucleus, then I develop the nucleus, make it grow in all aspects."


See:

http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=25366

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on October 04, 2007, 03:24:45 PM
Interesting article, Bruce.  I used to love Stimmung, but probably haven't heard it in 30+ years.  Hillier's new recording might prove very interesting, indeed!  Thanks for the heads up.

Stockhausen's own web-site has just added a CD of his latest electronic piece, Cosmic Pulses, to the roster. www.stockhausen.org
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on October 05, 2007, 06:07:09 AM
Stockhausen's own web-site has just added a CD of his latest electronic piece, Cosmic Pulses, to the roster. www.stockhausen.org

Scroll down to see that as part of Klang Stockhausen has actually composed with regular notes on regular music paper a Veni, Creator Spiritus!    0:)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on October 05, 2007, 05:00:21 PM
Scroll down to see that as part of Klang Stockhausen has actually composed with regular notes on regular music paper a Veni, Creator Spiritus!    0:)

Yes he has -- under the title of Freude, for two harps and two singing harpists. Harpites. Harpies? ANYWAY, there's a rather lengthy video excerpt of that work posted at the Stockhausen website, Marianne Smit and Esther Kooi performing.
http://www.stockhausen.org/joy_skk_2006.mov
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on October 18, 2007, 03:20:34 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61sGpu8FZ2L._AA240_.jpg)

Got this new nicely programmed disc...
works for bass clarinet & piano..
Klavierstuck IX, VII & VIII (solo piano)
Tanze Luzefa! & In Freundschaft (solo bass clarinet)
Tierkreis 12 melodies for the Star Signs (bass clarinet & piano)
(68'27)

Looks like a good set to me. Can't have too many Tierkreises. Tierkreisae. Tierkreisi. Zodiacs. My favorite is the Trio version, so far, but I hope he orchestrates the rest of them like the Five Star Signs (Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn) that premiered earlier this year.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on October 23, 2007, 02:15:42 AM
I have translated an article from the German magazine Der Spiegel from around 1987.  (Exact issue date is gone.)

Note it is written by the editor himself.


"With Hitler and a Bow-Wow into Cloud-Cuckoo-Land
Spiegel Editor Klaus Umbach on Karlheinz Stockhausen’s new opera Montag aus Licht

Like a lord, with curly hair down to his shoulders, he sits enthroned in the glow of spotlights 5 meters above the earthly stage.  His bright shirt is colorfully knitted, his trousers blossom white.  You cannot help but look at him: Karlheinz Stockhausen, 59, a figure of En-Light-enment for the contemporary electronic music scene.

With big eyes full of transfigured delight, this composer on the podium of the Cologne Philharmonic, a man who spiritually is able “to leave my body and observe it as if it were an automobile,” pursues a kind of neocreation of creativity: his work.  And he saw, that it was good.

Among “21 musical performers,”, small ensembles of singers, children’s choirs, traditional and electronic sound generators, among the cries of babies, goats bleating, and the beat of a cuckoo clock, 3 women named after the primeval mother Eve shriek through a squadron of giant loudspeakers “Huvva Luhudens” and “Akka Aditi”, at which point a choir, after a hymn to God as an “immeasurable Intelligence” monosyllabically chants a response: “Michi Michikiki niminimi.”

Then a “Birthday Aria” (“Parrot aye Parakeet Bow Wow!”) is to be understood, according to a published exegesis by Stockhausen himself, that Heaven has bestowed Life to 7 “Animal boys” and to 7 Dwarfs: “Luci-cat, Wee-wee-grimace, Penis-treasure, Birdie-boobs, Johnny Top, Manny-Tickle-Deer, and Little Brat.”

In grateful joy: 3 sailors gargle – according to the score – the sounds “a---öäua aö oöa oa ua” and then “ruketu Urt Werdani,” spitting out the water in high arches.

Up until then it had been a really colorful evening!

But then Hell bursts out in Stockhausen’s Eden.  Luci-Polyp steps out in the forms of 2 Beelzebubs and rattles down the alphabet “from A-fa and Be-fa to Upsilon-fa and Zee-fa.” Then an alarm clock goes off, and Adolf Hitler snores an historic O-tone, so that “we shoot back to 5:45 A.M.,” a crowd of men shout “Hail!” and a toilet flushes from an 8-track tape directed by 40 channels of sound.  Aha!  Creation is excrement, the miscarriage must go through the toilet back to a mother’s lap.

On to something new: a flock of lovely maidens prophesies “sea Samudra Ice,” apparently the code of an exotic genetic technology.  Because immediately a pair of rough chords occur on Eva’s Steinway (“Fertilization with Piano Piece”), the birth proceeds (“frai dai dai vae”) crazily fast, and already they are in the world of Karlheinz Stockhausen: “seven boys of the days,” “healthier and more beautiful human beings,” monstrosities of a composing visionary, who long ago lifted off into the cloud-cuckoo-land of his own crazy-quilted private philosophy.

So (“sonono nononono no”) this is the way things have been screaming with birth-pangs since 1977, and it will continue in installments until the next century, if the powers of inspiration remain whole for the creator.  Then it shall completely enlighten mankind: Stockhausen’s LIGHT, the most monumental and monomaniacal undertaking in Western Musical History, a cycle of operas structured and named after the days of the week, 5 times greater than all of Beethoven’ symphonies together, and at more than 30 hours a Colossus of Time, compared to which Wagner’s Ring tetralogy is a “a cute little chamber opera” (the newspaper Kölnische Rundschau).

At the beginning of April Stockhausen oversaw at the control panel the concert premiere of his latest piece Montag aus Licht.  On Saturday of this week Michael Bogdanov, Hamburg’s designated theater director, is arranging a premiere at La Scala of Donnerstag aus Licht via his previous London staging.

For over 4 hours this syllabic and sibylline  “Play of Light” winds around out of the incense from Poona and Oberammergau, from the Bible, legends, the vocabulary of children’s books, and the coffee grounds of Erich von Däniken (Note: a pseudo-scientist who claimed he had evidence of extra-terrestrial landings in ancient times), leading to the heights of the Bergisch Land and Kürten 5067 (Note: Stockhausen’s town and zip code), where Stockhausen has his center, a man who claims “not to be necessarily identical to Stockhausen the composer.”

Here at the address of Kettenberg 15, a green hill of electronic music astrology, he could listen in on “the 12 melodies of the zodiac”  as well as perceiving the vibrations of Sirius, the “central sun of our area of the Universe,” over 8.7 light-years away, “the highest form of oscillations,” under whose influence he went from new-sound revolutionary to a new-age softie, and from a philharmonic terror of the middle-class to the supernova of a messianically turned community.

Whether as a pioneer at the podium or the music mixer or as Heaven’s loudspeaker, he always stood at the center.  His work Kreuzspiel caused a scandal in 1952 at the Darmstadt New Music Festival.  His Gesang der Jünglinge almost became a classic.  He created by his won estimation the first works of purely electronic music in 19534 at the WDR studios.  The Beatles even honored him with his portrait on the album cover of Sergeant Pepper.  The Distinguished Service Cross Winner of the Republic of Germany once represented the brotherhood of the musical avant-garde in Bonn’s Villa Hammerschmidt and in Lebanon for a German cultural exposition.  During Expo 1970 in Osaka 21 soloists offered his new German sounds in a round auditorium for 5 1/2 hours per day over 183 days, and more than a million fair visitors listened enchanted to this new kind of permanent wave from Germany.

In Amsterdam, as late as 1985, according to a Stuttgart newspaper, “Stockhausen would draw more people than Karajan.”  And last year the composer’s son and trumpeter Markus even promoted his father in East Germany.

But the more frequently Stockhausen has directed ear into the Universe from his high throne his artistic sense to ideas on salvation, the more persistently he has destroyed his regular position as Germany’s #1 composer, which he quite rightly deserved as a revolutionary of the new and as a grandiose craftsman.

To be sure, even in the 3-act Montag aus Licht there are still some trace elements of his sonic inspiration in evidence, especially in the exquisite mixture of voices, synthesizers, and noises, even in the songs without words, which the bassett-horn player Suzanne Stephens and flautist Kathinka Pasveer perform with virtuoso elegance.

But unpleasantly there is nothing else of interest in this score, and it even becomes unsettling to realize: when it gets loud, it sounds like Orff, and when it gets soft, it moans like Cats, and if it keeps going like this, if Sonntag aus Licht is to be expected in the year 2002 as developing this trend, we can expect the world to beam in C major!

This whole musical-theatrical spectacle becomes embarrassing first through its “text-action-stew” (quote from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung) with which “total artwork creator” (Gesamtkunstwerker) Stockhausen waters down his musical message, and it makes no difference, as composer and critic Dietmar Polaczek wonders, whether “lower Rhine peasant Buddhism” or “tantric-lamaistic monastic Catholicism” is befogging Stockhausen’s sensibilities.

In any case, his community of believers can be seized by the metaphysical smoke from Kürten, and even the Hamburg newspaper Die Zeit ("The Times") gives the prayer wheel a spin: this work LICHT, said the newspaper in all seriousness about the unfinished work, might be a new type of evangelization, a type of Apocalypse of Karlheinz, and between Hitler, Bow-Wow, and a parakeet (“who attempts to whistle the Marseillaise” according to the score) arises “the art of composing as a new sacrament of the new human in a new, transformed Universe.”

There, in this new ivory-tower full of thoroughly senseless “Times-liness”, the Guru from Bergisch Land “would like to be allowed to make music with planets and moons and roaring groups of planets and suns and moons.”

Really, it’s almost tragic: while Karlheinz Stockhausen, the searcher for God, treks down the Milky Way of the Cosmos with his retinue, the composer of the same name has been going down backward on the wrong road for a long time."




Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: mikkeljs on October 23, 2007, 02:25:42 AM
He's going to be 80 next year...
a few of my faves...



And then they will perform the whole LICHT in Dresden in 2008.  :D  :D  :D

Please if anyone know more exactly when and how to get tickets, I would really like to know!  ::)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on October 23, 2007, 03:47:04 AM
A few comments on the translated article above from Der Spiegel, a magazine which finds no real equivalent in the U.S.  It resembles Time, but is probably 5 times thicker these days, and obviously therefore carries much more news with "deeper" commentary than Time or Newsweek.

I have always found it interesting that the magazine (c. 1987) deemed Stockhausen worthy of 3 whole pages (plus pictures).

Imagine Time giving 3 pages to e.g. John Adams or Philip Glass to chastise them for becoming egocentric and musically conservative!

The original German is also written in a very high, very ironic style, lurching into sarcasm at times, and complete with double and triple puns, which were difficult to render, but I hope some of them came through.
 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on October 23, 2007, 08:14:34 AM
Thanks for posting this, Cato.

Funny, after having first heard “classics” like Gruppen and Carré, it was exactly the opera Montag aus Licht that convinced me back in 2000 that Stockhausen was not just one of the "typical" great 20th century composers, but a composer of truly exceptional status. If anything, my admiration for this opera has grown over time (as has the one for the just mentioned old “classics”)

Even if you would have held a pistol against my head, I could never have made a correlation with Orff. And of course, the critic’s prediction about the C major has not panned out.

I do, however, appreciate that the critic has found some positive things to say about the music.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on October 23, 2007, 08:50:32 AM
Thanks for posting this, Cato.

Funny, after having first heard “classics” like Gruppen and Carré, it was exactly the opera Montag aus Licht that convinced me back in 2000 that Stockhausen was not just one of the "typical" great 20th century composers, but a composer of truly exceptional status. If anything, my admiration for this opera has grown over time (as has the one for the just mentioned old “classics”)

Even if you would have held a pistol against my head, I could never have made a correlation with Orff. And of course, the critic’s prediction about the C major has not panned out.

I do, however, appreciate that the critic has found some positive things to say about the music.


You are very welcome!

Well, I think the C major prediction was just some hyperbole of style! 

What is interesting is that one senses a hostility toward Stockhausen's highly idiosyncratic mysticism, a hostility that goes beyond what one might expect.  To be sure, the writer does try to stay focused on the purely musical aspects, as much as possible.

If the composer were a militant atheist    :o   , what might then be the critical reaction to LICHT?    0:) 

And perhaps minds will change when the entire opus is presented!  From my fragmentary experience with the cycle, I suspect not many minds will change.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2007, 09:35:03 AM
Karlheinz may now be discovering exactly whether or not his mystical visions had any connection to the universe, and if they connected to anything beyond the universe.   0:)

One wonders about the "personal" legacy: the curious relationship   >:D   with Pasveer and Stephens, 2 ex-wives, and 6 children. 

Who will write the "official biography" now?

Will the website finally be upgraded to something decent?!   8)

How many unfinished works are lying around?   :o
Probably Stockhausen will present a case where no musicologist could ever claim to know how to complete one of his works.

See also Mark Swed's obituary for Stockhausen:  http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-stockhausen8dec08,0,4248797.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on December 10, 2007, 09:36:34 AM
Probably Stockhausen will present a case where no musicologist could ever claim to know how to complete one of his works.

Wonderful thought!  ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on December 10, 2007, 09:37:36 AM
How many unfinished works are lying around?   :o
Probably Stockhausen will present a case where no musicologist could ever claim to know how to complete one of his works.
Astral projection to Sirius, anyone?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on December 10, 2007, 09:39:41 AM
Nah, Edward, my calendar's just too full.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on December 10, 2007, 09:43:03 AM
Anablog, bloggers in Baltimore (I think) have set up a list of all the tributes (including mine  :D), here (http://www.analogartsensemble.net/2007/12/more-stockhausen.html). 

Edit: Whoops, that was just Part II.  Here (http://www.analogartsensemble.net/2007/12/stockhausen-on-internets-obituaries.html) is Part I.  A huge number of them!  :o

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Harry on December 10, 2007, 09:57:43 AM
Last evening I saw and heard a piece of him on Arte Channel....
I was shocked...profoundly
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2007, 10:14:23 AM
Last evening I saw and heard a piece of him on Arte Channel....
I was shocked...profoundly

Can you be more specific?  What shocks a Dutchman these days?    $:)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on December 10, 2007, 10:15:03 AM
Surgical strike, Cato!  ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Harry on December 10, 2007, 10:17:25 AM
Can you be more specific?  What shocks a Dutchman these days?    $:)

I did not finish it, it finished me.
I was so in shock, that I forgot what piece it was.
Electronics, and the torture of different String instruments....
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on December 10, 2007, 10:29:35 AM
I did not finish it, it finished me.
I was so in shock, that I forgot what piece it was.
Electronics, and the torture of different String instruments....
Stockhausen's certainly not for everyone. I've got a sneaking hunch you'd enjoy Tierkreis, though.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 10, 2007, 10:32:57 AM
I did not finish it, it finished me.
I was so in shock, that I forgot what piece it was.
Electronics, and the torture of different String instruments....

Stockhausen prescribed Gulag treatment for the progeny of Stradivarius?   :o

While rummaging through the tributes, I came across an absolutely hilarious book, although not printed as a satire and meant to be taken with solemn seriousness and even serious solemnity:

Stockhausen Serves Imperialism
by Cornelius Cardew.

http://www.ubu.com/historical/cardew/cardew_stockhausen.pdf

Scroll down to see mass-murderer Mao (body count 75-100 million) allowing the sun to rise!

But if he did serve imperialism,   $:)    this would be another reason to like Stockhausen!   0:)

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 11, 2007, 04:48:05 AM
It will be interesting to see if the establishment "rethinks" their opinion on Stockhausen, when (if?) the complete LICHT-cycle is performed next year.

In the past the death of a composer/artist has meant that the works will fade away quickly, waiting to be rediscovered and lionized in the future.  A "paradigm shift" had to occur, before a true estimation could be found.

Of course, some paradigm shifts are only worth 20 cents.    :o

The current opinion, that Stockhausen went awry with an out-of-control solipsism back in the 1970's and that 10 minutes of LICHT is the only evidence you would need at a commitment trial to prove it, may prove to be enduring.

(e.g. See the translation of the article by Klaus Umbach below.)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 11, 2007, 11:37:41 AM
The current opinion, that Stockhausen went awry with an out-of-control solipsism back in the 1970's and that 10 minutes of LICHT is the only evidence you would need at a commitment trial to prove it, may prove to be enduring.

This opinion may prove to be enduring as long as people keep on not knowing his stunning late music. An opinion based on lack of knowledge.

Too bad that the Helikopter-Streichquartett, one of his few "duds" (or at least, only accessible to people with a wavelength for it, which does not quite include me) is one of the few musics of late Stockhausen that are available outside Stockhausen-Verlag.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 11, 2007, 12:09:15 PM
This opinion may prove to be enduring as long as people keep on not knowing his stunning late music. An opinion based on lack of knowledge.

Too bad that the Helikopter-Streichquartett, one of his few "duds" (or at least, only accessible to people with a wavelength for it, which does not quite include me) is one of the few musics of late Stockhausen that are available outside Stockhausen-Verlag.

I found a CD of it mispriced for $4.00 some years ago at Media Play, a chain now bankrupt, probably because they mispriced their CD's!  (Too many 20-something employees!)   :o

Excerpts from this work amazed and appalled my 16-17 year-old students: I showed them that, yes, intelligent people took Stockhausen quite seriously, among them the Arditti Quartet, WDR, et al.

Most remained highly skeptical, but a few delved deeper into Stockhausen's psychic pond!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on December 11, 2007, 12:43:40 PM
Too bad that the Helikopter-Streichquartett, one of his few "duds" (or at least, only accessible to people with a wavelength for it, which does not quite include me) is one of the few musics of late Stockhausen that are available outside Stockhausen-Verlag.

I actually find the quartet almost unlistenable, but in an amusing way.  (It's the constant rotor noise that kills it for me.)  But as far as a concept, it is so completely over-the-top that I just have to admire his sheer audacity.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on December 11, 2007, 12:44:37 PM
I actually find the quartet almost unlistenable, but in an amusing way.

I think that would have pleased the composer, Bruce  8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on December 11, 2007, 12:48:39 PM
I think that would have pleased the composer, Bruce  8)

Yep, maybe so!  :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on December 11, 2007, 05:56:33 PM
It will be interesting to see if the establishment "rethinks" their opinion on Stockhausen, when (if?) the complete LICHT-cycle is performed next year.

If the music of LICHT could get out on easily obtainable discs, instead of only from the Stockhausen-Verlag -- and it may, with this complete presentation -- it would win people immediately. I haven't heard it all, by any means, but I can tell you that Engel-Prozessionen, Welt-Parlament, Lichter-Wasser, Michaels Reise, these are far from the academic, experimental, unemotional image that many have of Stockhausen (usually because they have either never heard any of his work, or have only heard aleatoric pieces poorly realized).

 Welt-Parlament and Engel-Prozessionen are two of the most beautiful, most exalted choral works I have ever heard, and I've heard quite a few. In fact, I was surprised at how well Stockhausen wrote for the voice. Lichter-Wasser not only has a unique and very appealing style of vocal writing, but it is literally kaleidoscopic in its orchestration, without ever becoming the dread "bleep boop" Morse code music so often feared in modern composition. The melodies ("formulas") are easily recognized and followed, and the music flows in a way I have never encountered in any other piece. Michaels Reise (the chamber version) often takes off on flights I would normally associate with jazz, and concludes in a rapturous duet between trumpet and basset-horn that, once heard, will not be forgotten.

Lost in solipsism? Not at all. He was at the height of his powers all the way to the end.  Did everything he composed work? Not at all. The artist who goes for broke in every work always runs the risk of failure. Only the mediocre are always "successful", because they take no chances, willing to reproduce their past endlessly. When genius succeeds, the success is transcendent; when genius fails, the failure is complete. Stockhausen has his duds, but they are few and far between compared to the flow of the magnificent and mighty.

And this complete LICHT performance may well reveal that to all! Let us hope so!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 12, 2007, 01:50:24 AM
Beautiful post, Gomro, and it reflects my own sentiments about the works you mentioned and Stockhausen in general to a high degree.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Montpellier on December 12, 2007, 02:05:14 AM
I've never been sure how Stockhausen Plc stands in relation to DG.  I'd love the original DG recordings of Kontakte, Telemusik and Gesang to appear.  I first heard these on LP.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on December 12, 2007, 03:01:39 AM
I've never been sure how Stockhausen Plc stands in relation to DG.  I'd love the original DG recordings of Kontakte, Telemusik and Gesang to appear.  I first heard these on LP.

Stockhausen bought these and all the rest of his recordings from DG; they are now only available, as far as I know, on Stockhausen-Verlag releases:

CD 3 ETUDE (musique concrète )
STUDIE I and II (electronic music )
GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE / SONG OF THE YOUTHS (electronic music )
KONTAKTE / CONTACTS (electronic music)

and

CD 9 MIKROPHONIE I / MICROPHONY I
for tam-tam, 2 microphones, 2 filters with potentiometers (6 players)
MIKROPHONIE II / MICROPHONY II for choir, Hammond organ, 4 ring modulators
TELEMUSIK / TELEMUSIC (electronic music)

You can go to www.stockhausen.org for ordering info, if you like.


Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 12, 2007, 04:53:39 AM
Depending on what kind of will he left, Stockhausen's heirs might be more capitalistic - or need to become so - and will offer the CD's in a better, more user friendly manner to increase sales.  Right now, for an American sale, you would have to get an international money order, and few people have the time or patience to do so these days.  A charge card would be much simpler.

If LICHT goes over big next year, maybe somebody will offer to buy out Stockhausen-Verlag, and do everything right! 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 12, 2007, 05:02:52 AM
Depending on what kind of will he left, Stockhausen's heirs might be more capitalistic - or need to become so - and will offer the CD's in a better, more user friendly manner to increase sales.  Right now, for an American sale, you would have to get an international money order, and few people have the time or patience to do so these days.  A charge card would be much simpler.

If LICHT goes over big next year, maybe somebody will offer to buy out Stockhausen-Verlag, and do everything right! 

You can simply write a check, but the check handling costs are considerable. I have discussed the credit card option with them several times, but noted a strange resistance on the Maestro's part - he had been burned before in the old days, and I could not convince him that now, with modern technology, the money transfer takes place the moment you swipe the card or type in the numbers on your electronic merchant's machine (I know from my wife's business; if the transfer can't go through, the card is rejected in the first place), and that it's all very easy and labor-free.

After some time, when things have hopefully settled in Kuerten, I will discuss this with Stockhausen-Verlag again, and hopefully then they will lend a more willing ear.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 12, 2007, 10:48:44 AM
You can simply write a check, but the check handling costs are considerable. I have discussed the credit card option with them several times, but noted a strange resistance on the Maestro's part - he had been burned before in the old days, and I could not convince him that now, with modern technology, the money transfer takes place the moment you swipe the card or type in the numbers on your electronic merchant's machine (I know from my wife's business; if the transfer can't go through, the card is rejected in the first place), and that it's all very easy and labor-free.

After some time, when things have hopefully settled in Kuerten, I will discuss this with Stockhausen-Verlag again, and hopefully then they will lend a more willing ear.

The ultimate irony that Stockhausen, the techno-radical in music, turns into Scrooge McDuck (d.h. auf deutsch Onkel Dagobert) when it comes to his bank account!

If you can, find out who will inherit Stockhausen's collection of pastel sweaters!   8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on December 12, 2007, 11:49:33 AM
The United Colors of Benetton
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Montpellier on December 12, 2007, 12:33:43 PM
Stockhausen bought these and all the rest of his recordings from DG; they are now only available, as far as I know, on Stockhausen-Verlag releases:
...........
.........
You can go to www.stockhausen.org for ordering info, if you like.

Thank you.   It will be nice not to rely on LPs if I listen again.  They've got Zeitmasse, another one I like.   But what a ropey site. I can't d/l the pdfs though this always happens with german sites probably because I use explorer.   No matter I'll phone them.   

cheers
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: greg on December 12, 2007, 04:35:25 PM
If the music of LICHT could get out on easily obtainable discs, instead of only from the Stockhausen-Verlag -- and it may, with this complete presentation -- it would win people immediately. I haven't heard it all, by any means, but I can tell you that Engel-Prozessionen, Welt-Parlament, Lichter-Wasser, Michaels Reise, these are far from the academic, experimental, unemotional image that many have of Stockhausen (usually because they have either never heard any of his work, or have only heard aleatoric pieces poorly realized).

 Welt-Parlament and Engel-Prozessionen are two of the most beautiful, most exalted choral works I have ever heard, and I've heard quite a few. In fact, I was surprised at how well Stockhausen wrote for the voice. Lichter-Wasser not only has a unique and very appealing style of vocal writing, but it is literally kaleidoscopic in its orchestration, without ever becoming the dread "bleep boop" Morse code music so often feared in modern composition. The melodies ("formulas") are easily recognized and followed, and the music flows in a way I have never encountered in any other piece. Michaels Reise (the chamber version) often takes off on flights I would normally associate with jazz, and concludes in a rapturous duet between trumpet and basset-horn that, once heard, will not be forgotten.

Lost in solipsism? Not at all. He was at the height of his powers all the way to the end.  Did everything he composed work? Not at all. The artist who goes for broke in every work always runs the risk of failure. Only the mediocre are always "successful", because they take no chances, willing to reproduce their past endlessly. When genius succeeds, the success is transcendent; when genius fails, the failure is complete. Stockhausen has his duds, but they are few and far between compared to the flow of the magnificent and mighty.

And this complete LICHT performance may well reveal that to all! Let us hope so!
well, from that description, i can't wait to listen!  :D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 13, 2007, 12:31:03 PM


Where did you find a picture like that?

And why isn't Karlheinz in one of those pastel sweaters ?!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: lukeottevanger on December 13, 2007, 02:26:50 PM
Time to share Stockhausen pictures? Here's one:

(with Cage) (not sure if Sirius is the destination)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on December 13, 2007, 02:27:52 PM
I am SO enjoying these photos...thanks, guys, for posting them.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: uffeviking on December 13, 2007, 08:57:22 PM

(e.g. See the translation of the article by Klaus Umbach below.)

Unfortunately your translation didn't show up!  :'(

I was waiting for my issue of Der Spiegel - I assume that's where your article appeared - but can not find it in the last two issues. It could be one got lost in the mail, Cato, could you please give me the date and issue number?

Danke schön!
Lis
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 14, 2007, 05:06:41 AM
Unfortunately your translation didn't show up!  :'(

I was waiting for my issue of Der Spiegel - I assume that's where your article appeared - but can not find it in the last two issues. It could be one got lost in the mail, Cato, could you please give me the date and issue number?

Danke schön!
Lis

No: it is here on the forum in this topic!  It is a translation of an article from the late 80's/early 90's.

So, don't be sad!  Just go to page 3 of this topic!   :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Montpellier on December 15, 2007, 06:22:46 AM
The "Music Matters" broadcast was illuminating in bringing out the historic context, the German cultural backdrop against which he worked, then his growing isolation from friends and supporters from the early days, possibly a spiritual issue.  Cage was mentioned as an influence in the early days but that seemed to divide the two.   (Cage left Darmstadt a little disillusioned, I understand.)

I look forward to the broadcast tonight.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 17, 2007, 11:20:31 AM
James,

I am glad you liked some of the music you heard.

Well, the prices are high, but not that high. Single CDs range from $ 23-32, most double CDs are $ 62, and the 4-CD set of Freitag is $ 107. Part of the reason for the elevated prices is the abominable exchange rate Dollar/Euro (the Euro prices have not changed over the last 7 years).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on December 17, 2007, 05:41:57 PM
Any Stockhausen buffs out there in GMGland check the broadcast out...
I did...liked what I heard a great deal, in particular the stuff I've never heard before like the electronic music from Friday Light and Joy for 2 Harps from the Klang chamber-cycle ...so I rush over to the official Stockhausen site wanting to buy this stuff, and forgot about the astronomically ridiculous pricing....almost $80 for a 2 cd-set, half that for a single.... :-\

That BBC broadcast was very interesting; there's a set of interviews with various people, among them Markus Stockhausen and Pierre Boulez, on that site as well. ( I ordered Freude (Joy) about a week before Stockhausen died, along with 4 other discs. I'll post some opinions once I receive the discs and get them "under my belt." )  I was very glad that they played the excerpts of Freude and the electronic music with sound scenes from Freitag aus Licht; too many of the recent articles I've read indicate that only his early music is worthwhile. Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact, I stand by the assertion that Stockhausen was at the height of his powers up until his death.

But, yeah, it cost me $180 to get the 5 albums. It's all about how much you want to hear his work, I guess; I'm willing to pay that much, albeit somewhat grudgingly, ( http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=14671423&blogID=330865300 ) because his music means that much to me.  Who knows what will happen with the Verlag now?  And as far as his music goes -- I am awaiting, any day, the first performance of the Helicopter Quartet with taped copter sounds. I know that Irvine Arditti wanted to take it on the road with tapes and was forbidden by Stockhausen to do so; the performance practice is no longer in KhS's hands, and we'll see what happens with that.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 18, 2007, 12:16:13 AM
too many of the recent articles I've read indicate that only his early music is worthwhile. Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact, I stand by the assertion that Stockhausen was at the height of his powers up until his death.

I fully stand by your assertion. I have tried to get that across for years, mostly successfully once people have actually started to listen to the music. For example, once I had gotten about 5 people on a predecessor of this board to purchase the CD of the a cappella Welt-Parlament. Boy, were they enthusiastic! (And most of them had been skeptics of late Stockhausen.)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: lukeottevanger on December 18, 2007, 12:21:46 AM
For me, Al, the turning point was that CD of Inori you kindly supplied so many of us with - it radically changed my conception of Stockhausen, and I think it one of the finest post-war works I know of.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 18, 2007, 12:40:20 AM
For me, Al, the turning point was that CD of Inori you kindly supplied so many of us with - it radically changed my conception of Stockhausen, and I think it one of the finest post-war works I know of.

Yes, Luke, and I still very much remember that wonderfully perceptive email that you once sent me about that work.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 18, 2007, 11:46:37 AM
It is possible that Stockhausen will eventually be compared to Scriabin and Wagner as a composer whose mystic theories one can/should/must ignore, and simply deal with the music as music.

I am reminded of the famous story about Bruckner as he watched one of Wagner's operas, either Goetterdaemmerung or Tristan, and then near the end asked someone next to him: "Can you tell me exactly why the heroine is dying?"  He apparently simply listened to the "music as music" and theories about a Gesamtkunstwerk were unnecessary.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 18, 2007, 02:16:21 PM
It is possible that Stockhausen will eventually be compared to Scriabin and Wagner as a composer whose mystic theories one can/should/must ignore, and simply deal with the music as music.

I am reminded of the famous story about Bruckner as he watched one of Wagner's operas, either Goetterdaemmerung or Tristan, and then near the end asked someone next to him: "Can you tell me exactly why the heroine is dying?"  He apparently simply listened to the "music as music" and theories about a Gesamtkunstwerk were unnecessary.

I would agree in that I am first and foremost interested in the music as such. In my essay on the work Sirius,

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/sirius.htm

I quote Stockhausen a bit, but my own comments on the story of the work in this 12-page-essay consist of a single dry sentence:

"SIRIUS is a kind of science-fiction story in which four messengers from Sirius land on Earth, teach the humans about the music on that star and after that take off again into space."

The rest is all description of the music. I do not even mention that Stockhausen thought he was from Sirius. Did the composer object? Not at all, he loved my essay.

As far as the mythology of LICHT in relation to "mystic theories" goes, here is my comment from "Introduction to Samstag":

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/samstagintro.htm

"In this context it should be pointed out that the message of LICHT does not appear to revolve around particular religious beliefs. Rather, it is concerned with universal concepts regarding human nature, the relationship of humans with God and the battle of spirits and minds. As the framework for this message, the opera cycle uses a specific spiritual mythology, created from familiar religious elements – as an example, the "mystical union of Michael and Eve" from SONNTAG has parallels in the teachings of "mystical union", e.g., of the soul with God, in several of the major world religions, but is not found as such in any religion (and, by the way, not in the Urantia Book, either)."

(The composer didn't object to this either.)

You can think of it like Tolkien's mythology if you will (and this author was Catholic).

***

BTW, Stockhausen may have had phases where he believed in reincarnation, but towards the end he at least semi-returned to his Catholic roots.

He had written in the program note to the world premiere of HIMMELFAHRT (Ascension), a work of 2004/05: "I pray to Saint Michael, that I may someday ascend – like Jesus did – into Heaven which, like music, is invisible."

(My essay on the music:
http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/himmelfahrt.htm)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on December 18, 2007, 06:03:10 PM
As the framework for this message, the opera cycle uses a specific spiritual mythology, created from familiar religious elements – as an example, the "mystical union of Michael and Eve" from SONNTAG has parallels in the teachings of "mystical union", e.g., of the soul with God, in several of the major world religions, but is not found as such in any religion (and, by the way, not in the Urantia Book, either)."

I equate that "mystical union" with Christ receiving his Church, which is referred to as "the bride of Christ" in various places throughout the New Testament. I think Eve can very easily stand for the redeemed, mystically made one with Christ/Michael (Michael also represents Christ in the Revelation of St. John). And Hoch-Zeiten does mean Weddings!  But all this being the case, the music can be enjoyed without paying any attention to the cosmology. I can't speak German, so the words to most of LICHT go right past me unless I follow the lyric sheet and translation...but that doesn't lessen the effect of the music a bit!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 19, 2007, 04:19:44 PM
Critic Greg Sandow had an article about Stockhausen in today's (Dec. 19, 2007) Wall Street Journal:

An excerpt:

"And then there was Miles Davis, who first heard Stockhausen in the '60s and never stopped talking about him. Once, on tour in Germany, he told his audience to give up on Beethoven: "You've got Stockhausen now." Stockhausen, along with James Brown, was a major influence on a dizzying Miles Davis album, "On the Corner," released in 1972. (Funk and the classical avant-garde, together at last!) Davis and Stockhausen met; they even recorded together, though the results have never been released.

Frank Zappa loved Stockhausen. So does Bjork. And so do many jazz musicians and many creators of the latest, strangest, most radical electronic dance tracks.

But in the classical world, Stockhausen -- though a major figure in music history books -- seemed half-forgotten when he died. That's partly his own fault. His mysticism took him over; he said he'd contacted beings from another star and in effect had channeled their music. Late in the '70s he embarked on a huge cycle of operas, seven of them, 29 hours of music in all. And though some were produced, the project as a whole seemed too much for the classical world to swallow, especially when one of the works called for a string quartet in which each instrumentalist is suspended in the air from a helicopter.

Stockhausen also withdrew his CDs from Deutsche Grammophon and made them available only from him, at exalted prices, with no chance even to buy them online. You had to send him a check in Germany. That just about removed his music from circulation, though there's a healthy trade in his old LPs on eBay.

Thus the paradox. When a meditative, nourishing new CD of "Stimmung" emerged this year, it took me back to the '60s and I happily reviewed it -- right here in these pages. Most of my classical-music friends had barely even heard of the piece. But with a young jazz musician I happened to meet, I could have discussed it for hours."

Mr. Sandow is a composer, critic and consultant who's writing a book on the future of classical music.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 22, 2007, 12:54:02 PM
"And then there was Miles Davis, who first heard Stockhausen in the '60s and never stopped talking about him. Once, on tour in Germany, he told his audience to give up on Beethoven: "You've got Stockhausen now." "

hmmmm interesting... 8)

Send that over to the "All Composers Are Inferior to Beethoven" topic!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on December 28, 2007, 03:18:31 PM
For those who are interested, the curious Prayer at Stockhausen's Grave, signed by his two...lady...apprentices!

http://www.stockhausen.org/prayer_for_Stockhausen.pdf

The website now offers an "historic" bit of news: the score for MOMENTE is now available for c. $700.00!!!

It will be interesting to see if prices drop at Stockhausen-Verlag, or if they go up!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: longears on December 28, 2007, 05:20:35 PM
"And then there was Miles Davis, who first heard Stockhausen in the '60s and never stopped talking about him. Once, on tour in Germany, he told his audience to give up on Beethoven: "You've got Stockhausen now." "

hmmmm interesting... 8)

And telling...guess that's as good a demonstration as any of the effect of heroin on cognition.

I can just imagine Wayne Newton at a club in East St. Louis saying, "Forget about Miles...you've got Justin Guarini now."
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on January 05, 2008, 07:32:08 AM
here's a quote from Edo de Waart that seems somewhat connected to this discussion:
 "I like composers who write human music. I'm not a great Stockhausen fan, I'm more for Berio and Lutoslawski, Berg more than Webern."

So, evidently, he believes Stockhausen did not write "human music," whatever that is.  My guess: music that appeals to people's hearts, perhaps, more so than intellectual composer-only puzzles.  I spun Lichter-Wasser yesterday, and that piece alone would be reason for me to differ with de Waart's assessment. I could name others. But again, Stockhausen's later (and I'll go out on a limb and dare to say "superior") output is unknown to many.   
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on January 05, 2008, 07:45:57 AM
here's a quote from Edo de Waart that seems somewhat connected to this discussion:
 "I like composers who write human music. I'm not a great Stockhausen fan, I'm more for Berio and Lutoslawski, Berg more than Webern."

So, evidently, he believes Stockhausen did not write "human music," whatever that is.  My guess: music that appeals to people's hearts, perhaps, more so than intellectual composer-only puzzles.  I spun Lichter-Wasser yesterday, and that piece alone would be reason for me to differ with de Waart's assessment. I could name others. But again, Stockhausen's later (and I'll go out on a limb and dare to say "superior") output is unknown to many.   

There isn't a more human piece of avant-garde music than Momente.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on January 05, 2008, 01:26:16 PM
Oh this is just too cool for words.  To mark the deaths of Stockhausen and Ike Turner  :o, composer Miguel Frasconi has created this little item (http://frasconimusic.com/blog/2008/01/01/happy-new-year/).  It's short, about 3 minutes long.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on January 23, 2008, 09:49:49 AM
From the blog On an Overgrown Path : Stimmung, sung by London Voices, will be one of the featured items on Faster Than Sound (http://www.fasterthansound.co.uk/), part of the 2008 Aldeburgh Summer Festival. 

More here (http://www.overgrownpath.com/2008/01/stockhausens-stimmung-stars-at-snape.html).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: greg on February 08, 2008, 01:52:08 PM
stockhausen's helicopter quartet is a featured video on youtube right now!
i don't know how the system works, though, or if everyone sees it as a featured video right now.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=13D1YY_BvWU

661 ratings, everyone seems to hate it though.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on March 05, 2008, 04:42:15 AM
I transfer this post from the Carter thread:

Hey Al, this year I'm going to try make an effort to explore KS's later output...you seem like a fan, what in your estimation is the best of the best from the later stuff. Things are that are perhaps up there with things like the early klavierstuck, gruppen, zeitmasse, kontakte or mantra? Thanks in advance.

O.k., I'll give a few suggestions of single CDs, since you expressed budget concerns before:

1. Oktophonie (CD 41), an impressive piece of electronic music.

2. Welt-Parlament (CD 51), a densely polyphonic a cappella work that has had spectacular success winning over several skeptical listeners on a precursor of this message board.

3. Two CDs from the Klang cycle, CD 83 (Himmelfahrt, for synthesizer, soprano and tenor) and CD 84 (Freude for two harps).

4. A bit earlier (1974), but essential, is Inori, an orchestral work.

You can read about most of those works on my website,

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/stockhausenreviews.htm

Al
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on March 05, 2008, 09:27:56 AM
PS, for those who haven't seen it, this month's Artforum has tributes from Robin Maconie, Morton Subotnick, and Björk here (http://artforum.com/inprint/id=19549).  (The print edition has more, from Pierre-Laurent Aimard, Maryanne Amacher, Irvine Arditti and La Monte Young.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on March 05, 2008, 09:41:33 AM
have you heard the 24 layer/stranded cosmic pulses?
ive read some stuff on it, but it's hard to come by audio samples of it...
same with oktophonie, http://www.stockhausen41.com/

also if these are similar (or different enough) to the electronic music from Friday Light??

Cosmic Pulses is terrific, but I did not initially recommend it because I am not sure of its immediate accessibility (it did grab me personally upon first listening though). Cosmic Pulses, Oktophonie and the electronic music from Friday are very different from each other.

The nice thing about the Cosmic Pulses CD is that in the second half the 24 layers are "unraveled" by introducing the first 1 and a half minutes of each one separately.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on March 05, 2008, 09:47:22 AM
PS, for those who haven't seen it, this month's Artforum has tributes from Robin Maconie, Morton Subotnick, and Björk here (http://artforum.com/inprint/id=19549).  (The print edition has more, from Pierre-Laurent Aimard, Maryanne Amacher, Irvine Arditti and La Monte Young.)

--Bruce

Thanks for that link, Bruce.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on March 05, 2008, 09:55:17 AM
If anyone lives in the Boston area, they can hear Oktophonie live in 8-channel reproduction (fascinating!) this coming Saturday at Harvard University at 11 pm (yes, that's right, 11 pm).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on March 05, 2008, 01:28:38 PM
"accessibility" isnt a requirement/issue with me...ive been exposed to a fair deal and wide breadth of stuff for quite some time now & have long gotten over those issues in the very beginning, decades ago...

I should have figured as much. Sorry. I might have been a bit too concerned with a "wow" factor upon first listening, given so many skeptics of late Stockhausen. However, you don't seem to be one, given that you liked several excerpts of his late music in the BBC memorial broadcast.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on March 07, 2008, 07:36:59 AM
I just found out that next week at the University of Michigan (Ann Arbor), composer Virgil Moorefield is going to perform a version of the Helikopter-Quartett with the university's Digital Music Ensemble, with four electric guitars and--check this out--toy helicopters!  They will also have real-time visuals triggered by the music.  (One of the helicopters will have a camera inside.)  They are apparently making a video of the whole thing, so if I find the link I'll post it here.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on March 07, 2008, 09:57:03 AM
I just found out that next week at the University of Michigan (Ann Arbor), composer Virgil Moorefield is going to perform a version of the Helikopter-Quartett with the university's Digital Music Ensemble, with four electric guitars and--check this out--toy helicopters!  They will also have real-time visuals triggered by the music.  (One of the helicopters will have a camera inside.)  They are apparently making a video of the whole thing, so if I find the link I'll post it here.

--Bruce

Sounds hilarious!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on March 07, 2008, 05:40:36 PM
I just found out that next week at the University of Michigan (Ann Arbor), composer Virgil Moorefield is going to perform a version of the Helikopter-Quartett with the university's Digital Music Ensemble, with four electric guitars and--check this out--toy helicopters!  They will also have real-time visuals triggered by the music.  (One of the helicopters will have a camera inside.)  They are apparently making a video of the whole thing, so if I find the link I'll post it here.

--Bruce

I figured the first "non-canon" Helikopter-Quartett would be a version without helicopters; taped copter sounds on stage. But this! Yeah, that's great. I don't know how they're gonna make it work, but it's a great idea, anyway. BTW, Moorefield recorded one of my top-ten "avant-rock" albums, Distractions on the Way to the King's Party; you can hear a track from it and other Moorefield discs here: http://www.virgilmoorefield.com/composer.html (http://www.virgilmoorefield.com/composer.html)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on March 12, 2008, 07:03:00 AM
Here is the flyer about the University of Michigan performance on Friday of the Helikopter-Quartett.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on March 12, 2008, 07:14:51 AM
Is only one person in charge of all 4 helicopters???   :o

The flyer reminded me of Planet of the Apes plus The Day the Earth Stood Still.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: toledobass on March 12, 2008, 08:02:40 AM
I just found out that next week at the University of Michigan (Ann Arbor), composer Virgil Moorefield is going to perform a version of the Helikopter-Quartett with the university's Digital Music Ensemble, with four electric guitars and--check this out--toy helicopters!  They will also have real-time visuals triggered by the music.  (One of the helicopters will have a camera inside.)  They are apparently making a video of the whole thing, so if I find the link I'll post it here.

--Bruce

Bruce,  do you have some sort of link or more info on the performance?  (oops nevermind...I posted too fast)

Also for everyone else,  what are a few pieces to start out with?

Allan
Allan
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on March 12, 2008, 08:11:21 AM
Toy helicopters? Wouldn't that be like playing the Bach Toccata & Fugue in D Minor on a carousel calliope?  ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on March 12, 2008, 08:25:52 AM
Bruce,  do you have some sort of link or more info on the performance?  (oops nevermind...I posted too fast)

Here (http://www.dc.umich.edu/dmc/) is the blurb on the U. Michigan website.  (Center, scroll down a bit.)

Edit: here (http://www.music.umich.edu/current_students/perf_opps/dme/) is the Digital Music Ensemble's home page, with a little more information on the DME in general, MP3 files, and other interesting things, but I don't see anything else about the Stockhausen.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on March 23, 2008, 10:19:14 AM
OK, Stockhausen fans, here (http://www.virgilmoorefield.com/Stockhausen.html) it is: Virgil Moorefield's version of the Helikopter - Streichquartett, arranged for four electric guitars...and toy helicopters.  (Note: requires QuickTime, a free download, available here (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/).)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: eyeresist on May 18, 2008, 06:04:38 PM
Hi Stockhausen fans!

I recently heard some Stockhausen for the first time - Stimmung, on Naxos's 2-disc introduction to modern music. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it, finding it reminiscent of Laurie Anderson's work (though of course it's actually the other way around).

Can anyone recommend further _cheap_ CDs to explore?
 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on May 18, 2008, 07:11:01 PM
Hi Stockhausen fans!

I recently heard some Stockhausen for the first time - Stimmung, on Naxos's 2-disc introduction to modern music. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it, finding it reminiscent of Laurie Anderson's work (though of course it's actually the other way around).

Can anyone recommend further _cheap_ CDs to explore?
 

There's a fine performance of Mantra on New Albion, which won't bankrupt you: http://www.amazon.com/Stockhausen-Mantra-Karlheinz/dp/B000000R2N/ref=pd_bbs_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211166131&sr=8-7 (http://www.amazon.com/Stockhausen-Mantra-Karlheinz/dp/B000000R2N/ref=pd_bbs_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211166131&sr=8-7)

Eotvos' recordings of Punkte and Gruppen are very good: http://www.amazon.com/Karlheinz-Stockhausen-Gruppen-Punkte/dp/B000ENC6P0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211166131&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.com/Karlheinz-Stockhausen-Gruppen-Punkte/dp/B000ENC6P0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211166131&sr=8-4)

I was surprised to find a few of these still out there -- the trio version of Tierkreis, Stockhausen's beautiful series of miniatures based on the Zodiac. Think of it as his Pictures at an Exhibition. With it comes the solo trumpet piece Oberlippentanz; I'm fine with that work, but many find it a bit overlong. Your mileage may vary. : http://www.amazon.com/Tierkreis-Stockhausen/dp/B000009HZV/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211166608&sr=8-34 (http://www.amazon.com/Tierkreis-Stockhausen/dp/B000009HZV/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1211166608&sr=8-34)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: eyeresist on May 19, 2008, 01:31:10 AM
Thanks for the recommendations, guys. Oh, my poor wallet....
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on May 19, 2008, 07:34:52 AM
Try the first 11 Klavierstuck as played by Aloys Kontarsky for free in lossless downloads: http://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp101/index.htm
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MN Dave on May 19, 2008, 07:49:02 AM
Try the first 11 Klavierstuck as played by Aloys Kontarsky for free in lossless downloads: http://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp101/index.htm

Hm. I downloaded a track, but how do I play it? My computer doesn't like it.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on May 19, 2008, 07:52:06 AM
Do you have flac installed? I'm guessing probably not.

http://flac.sourceforge.net/documentation_tasks.html is the official guide on how to use it with more popular media players.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MN Dave on May 19, 2008, 07:53:41 AM
Do you have flac installed? I'm guessing probably not.

http://flac.sourceforge.net/documentation_tasks.html is the official guide on how to use it with more popular media players.

Okay. Thanks.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on May 19, 2008, 04:07:30 PM
Those Kontarsky Klavierstucke performances are great...

gomro, by any chance have you heard MITTWOCH-GRUSS electronic music (verlag 66) or SONNTAGS-ABSCHIED for 5 synthesizers (verlag 74)??

or verlag 78 those works played on saxophone...??

Sucks that the Official Site doesn't have 30 second samples of each disc.

I haven't heard M-G, but I own S-A, Verlag 74.  Angelin Preljocaj, the choreographer, called it "an acoustic form of voodoo;" this link takes you to some bits of his ballet Eldorado, and you can hear some of S-A there.
http://www.preljocaj.org/video/eldorado2.swf (http://www.preljocaj.org/video/eldorado2.swf)

Here is an image I created that captures some of my impressions of S-A (synaesthesia); of course it is only a frozen moment. Some day I'll invest in better graphics software, till then, it is what it is:

(http://a439.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/116/l_060c96f5ab8fdc9a5db8a1e6e9c78426.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on May 26, 2008, 09:36:39 AM
FYI for anyone in New York next weekend, the annual Bang on a Can marathon will be at the World Financial Center from 6:00 p.m. Saturday through 6:00 a.m. on Sunday.  The final piece will be Stockhausen's Stimmung, performed by Toby Twining Music at around 5:00 a.m.  The venue is mostly glass (see below), so to hear this while watching the sun rise could be quite an extraordinary experience.

http://www.bangonacan.org/marathon/schedule

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on June 24, 2008, 05:18:14 PM
A review of the memorial concert in Holland; Punkte, Litanei 97 and the premiere of Glanz...

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/music/la-et-stockhausen21-2008jun21,0,6104263.story (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/music/la-et-stockhausen21-2008jun21,0,6104263.story)

I expect Glanz on CD before long; I've never heard Litanei 97, but it's available from the Verlag. (If I recall correctly, it was one of the very aleatoric pieces that KS returned to in later life to solidify in a closed form.) I have the Gruppen/Punkte recording Eotvos conducted; excellent.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on July 04, 2008, 02:04:49 PM
That is great to hear, James. While Stockhausen continues to be a main focus in my listening, I now spend once more a lot of time with Bach -- the first four concerti for violin and harpsichord (vol. 1) and the entire Clavierübung III (Organ: Wolfgang Rübsam, on Naxos). All I can say is: Simply Amazing.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on July 08, 2008, 06:16:32 PM
From reading interviews Stockhausen revered Bach deeply. Also, the presence is felt in the music, as early back as Choral for instance, it's apparent that he studied Bach, most serious composers study music history, historic figures & works quite throughly anyway it's unavoidable. But KS was very much into expanding ideas of polyphony in his own way, so Bach was undoubtably a inspiration.

Agreed on all counts.

Stockhausen's assistant, Kathinka Pasveer, once sent me a letter about a performance of Mantra in the Thomaskirche in Leipzig where Bach worked later in his life. She was very moved by Stockhausen's words about Bach in his pre-concert speech.

Stockhausen once said that he could never understand how someone could call Bach conservative. I thought this statement was significant, coming from a composer who, mostly successfully, tried to say something new in music with each work.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on July 10, 2008, 08:28:30 AM
James,

I see your points, and in some way Stockhausen even agreed with you. He said, in the context of the creation of Licht, "after twenty-five years of discovery would come twenty-five years of integrating what had been discovered."  (source: Towards a Cosmic Music: Texts by Karlheinz Stockhausen, ed. Tim Nevill).

Certainly, it is true that some of the original ideas that Stockhausen started out with continue in his work – you can and want to invent anew only so much of the very basics of your way of composing. That is probably what Stockhausen meant with above statement.

On the other hand, Stockhausen also said that in interviews that “I still discover new things all the time” and “I do not like to repeat myself”.

And I do think it shows in that he has remained highly innovative throughout. For example, just comparing his works in one limited genre, a cappella choral music, e.g. the works Unsichtbare Chöre, Welt-Parlament, Geburtsfest (the choirs of Montag aus Licht) and Engel-Prozessionen, shows that
a) they are each unlike any of each other and unlike any of his earlier music 1)
b) they are considerably different from any other composer's music

Actually, it was the vocal textures and the harmonies of the choral music of Montag aus Licht that convinced me back in 2000, after I had come to know some of his earlier works, including Gruppen, that Stockhausen is one of the giants, not just a "great composer" -- they made an impression (and still do) of being "bloody brilliant", to use your words. I perceive in all these works I mentioned a tremendous sense of discovery.

And I still cannot get over the originality of Licht-Bilder (2002/03) and Himmelfahrt (2004/05; from the Klang cycle). In the former Stockhausen uses successions of stand-alone brief melodic gestures, and based on them combines the gestural fragmentation heard in some of his early music, e.g. Klavierstücke V and VI, with overt melodiousness in an unheard-of manner. In Himmelfahrt, on the other hand, we have (very) extended melodic lines, but also a polyphony based on simultaneous different tempi that stand in non-linear relationships with one another (played by left and right hand of the organist or synthesizer player) like in Gruppen. But while there the music was gestural, here it is melodic.

In any case, the two works sound utterly unique, even though, as I already alluded to, both incorporate ideas and elements from Stockhausen's earlier music -- yet they put them in radically new contexts.

In fact, I cannot think of any other avant-garde composer who throughout his career has consistently stayed on the forefront of avantgarde without eventually settling into a signature style or different periods with each a signature style in them. Rihm comes relatively close perhaps, but among his many innovative compositions there are also those where he consolidates and mingles earlier styles. Not that this is a bad thing at all (and I think Rihm is more often than not brilliant), but in comparison the originality of Stockhausen blows me away every time 2) . This is also because I perceive Stockhausen's innovations, on average, to be of a greater magnitude (Rihm wrote some spectacularly innovative works as well, yet at least one of them, Jadgen und Formen from 2000, was years in the making with preparatory smaller scores).

Al



1)  a limited amount of textures in Welt-Parlament (1995) is somewhat foreshadowed in Atmen Gibt das Leben (1974).

2)  no, it's not a contest who is the most original composer -- and it is not about confusing originality with greatness (while Stockhausen's music has a lot to offer in the latter department too) --, but I think originality can and should be acknowledged where it is found. And it does provide an added sense of excitement, at least for me.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: uffeviking on July 23, 2008, 07:22:43 PM
Montag aus Licht was my evening listening. I have been saving the discs for an uninterrupted block of time because I knew it requires intense concentration. I was willing to provide the time, but it was a challenge; my fault because I am no admirer of female voices.

In all the time I listened, nothing but female voices; shrieky, screechy, high-pitched ones, and unless it happened while I was dozing off, not one male voice. What gives with those male composers filling my ears with women's noise? I am thinking all the way back to Richard Strauss who had the same hang-up. Any logical explanation?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 24, 2008, 08:02:07 AM
Montag aus Licht was my evening listening. I have been saving the discs for an uninterrupted block of time because I knew it requires intense concentration. I was willing to provide the time, but it was a challenge; my fault because I am no admirer of female voices.

In all the time I listened, nothing but female voices; shrieky, screechy, high-pitched ones, and unless it happened while I was dozing off, not one male voice. What gives with those male composers filling my ears with women's noise? I am thinking all the way back to Richard Strauss who had the same hang-up. Any logical explanation?

I haven't heard Monday yet. Apart from all the screechy voices (!), what was it like? I've got the recordings of Thursday, Saturday and I've heard Friday. Isn't Monday Eve's day or something, which may explain why it's dominated by female voices?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on August 29, 2008, 04:06:37 AM
My journey through Stockhausen’s music:

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/stockhausenjourney.htm
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on August 29, 2008, 06:57:53 PM
My journey through Stockhausen’s music:

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/stockhausenjourney.htm


Very interesting article! 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: mikkeljs on August 30, 2008, 12:23:14 AM
Have just worked on his nr. 7 Klavierstuck 11 for two days. Now I have studied one bar.  :D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: greg on August 30, 2008, 07:57:35 AM
Have just worked on his nr. 7 Klavierstuck 11 for two days. Now I have studied one bar.  :D
i have enough trouble reading and interpreting the rhythm of the very first bar of the very first piano piece....... 5/4 time in 11:10 ratio, the 7th eighth note to the end being in 7:5 ratio.......
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sound67 on September 02, 2008, 12:30:41 AM
Quote
But when Stockhausen unexpectedly passed away on December 5th 2008, we decided to publish it...

I know Stockhausen was ahead of his time, but ...  8)

Thomas
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on September 02, 2008, 05:21:52 AM
I know Stockhausen was ahead of his time, but ...  8)

Thomas

You're right. I copied it from the book without paying attention to the mistake there. Thanks for pointing it out, I will correct.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 24, 2008, 03:18:28 PM
On page D9 of the Wall Street Journal for today, September 24, a review of Stockhausen's Gruppen by A.J. Goldman can be found.

The performance took place - appropriately enough, given Stockhausen's flights of fancy - in a hangar at Berlin's Tempelhof airport.  Simon Rattle conducted the Berlin Philharmonic. 

Gruppen was performed twice, and the audience was allowed to switch seats: the reviewer mentions that the concerts were sold out (!) and that hardly anyone left after the first part of the concert.

See

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122221027907968931.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122221027907968931.html)

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Est.1965 on October 04, 2008, 10:32:52 AM
My journey through Stockhausen’s music:

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/stockhausenjourney.htm

This is very interesting indeed.   :o
The author was obviously a 'classic' Classical Music lover but found something (or indeed, a lot of things!) in Stockhausen that he liked too.  This is quite a turnaround, and it has really got me interested.  I have NO Stockhausen whatsoever - I once had something, an LP (Montag), but could not fathom it at all and didn't know how to listen to it. :(
Well, I'm quite excited after reading that article and who knows, Stockhausen might be the answer to the question somewhere else on this forum "What is the future of Classical Music?"  So Stockhaiusen fans, as a beginner and previous Stockhausen knocker based on one LP and personal ignorance, where should I start??
What should I listen for?
I'm also interested in the idea of 'texts' being read through the music - this ida is also new to me, but in many ways it makes sense indeed.

So guys, my mind has been closed to this composer - as James quotes Zappa:  "A mind is like a parachute. It doesnt work if it's not open."  Well, mine has been very closed indeed to Stockhausen, although I do have some Schnittke (is that close?).   :-\

Any info on what I should start with and what I should listen for (if that's appropriate) would be welcome indeed.   :-*
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on October 04, 2008, 10:51:44 AM
This is very interesting indeed.   :o
The author was obviously a 'classic' Classical Music lover but found something (or indeed, a lot of things!) in Stockhausen that he liked too.  This is quite a turnaround, and it has really got me interested.  I have NO Stockhausen whatsoever - I once had something, an LP (Montag), but could not fathom it at all and didn't know how to listen to it. :(
Well, I'm quite excited after reading that article and who knows, Stockhausen might be the answer to the question somewhere else on this forum "What is the future of Classical Music?"  So Stockhaiusen fans, as a beginner and previous Stockhausen knocker based on one LP and personal ignorance, where should I start??
What should I listen for?
I'm also interested in the idea of 'texts' being read through the music - this ida is also new to me, but in many ways it makes sense indeed.

So guys, my mind has been closed to this composer - as James quotes Zappa:  "A mind is like a parachute. It doesnt work if it's not open."  Well, mine has been very closed indeed to Stockhausen, although I do have some Schnittke (is that close?).   :-\

Any info on what I should start with and what I should listen for (if that's appropriate) would be welcome indeed.   :-*

Schnittke really isn't close.  There's a good New Albion recording of the two-piano work Mantra that won't break your bankroll; it's a pretty good intro to Stockhausen. Check the used discs at Amazon or Ebay and you may find a trio Tierkreis that's very fine, a sort of Stockhausen Lite, but good for easing into the waters.  ECM's chamber version of Michael's Reise is another, but I'm not sure that's still available.  If you want to take the plunge in a big way, go for Stockhausen-Verlag's Inori (for orchestra), Lichter-Wasser (chamber ensemble, soprano and tenor) or Freude (two harps).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on October 04, 2008, 12:18:20 PM
Stockhausen-festival next month: concerts, masterclasses, workshops, panel discussions, lectures, symposiums...

http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/festivals-series/stockhausen-festival

I'm going to at least four concerts in that series. I'm wetting my pants with anticipation at the thought of hearing Trans in the flesh for the first time. I wonder if they'll "stage" it as Stockhausen wanted or if it'll be a straightforward concert performance.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Est.1965 on October 04, 2008, 01:40:39 PM
Thank you James and gomro.  I will check these out and get back to this post in the near future.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on October 04, 2008, 07:13:03 PM
for Stockhausen go for the works where he was first discovering his own language...the Klavierstucke...or the amazing wind quintet Zeitmasze, the orchestral Gruppen for 3 Orchestras, and for some electronic music try Kontakte. These really capture his essense in thee best possible light.

I've been playing the excellent Gruppen/Punkte disc with Eotvos as principal conductor, and, as usual, I've created an abstract image to illustrate the music, in this case Gruppen:
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/48/l_cce04156cd3446d4b64f2341d40eea81.jpg)


I guess Saul would be proud...sheesh...
Title: Re: Stockhausen and Salvador Dali
Post by: Cato on October 08, 2008, 09:08:11 AM
In my more meditative moments I have wondered about the interesting parallels between Salvador Dali and Stockhausen.

Both capable of very intriguing artworks, yet also quite capable of producing kitsch.  Both deliberately outraging the "bourgeoisie".
Both very controlling about the economic nature of their artworks ("Dali Avida Dollars").
Both conducting their later years as cult (or at least cultish) leaders.

This is not to imply necessarily that Stockhausen was a surrealist, although some would hear his music as surreal, along with his psychocosmic beliefs. 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: greg on October 11, 2008, 04:04:15 PM
Found this, a section of Stockhausen's last completed work for orchestra
(the one he finished the night before his passing) conducted/premiered by Knussen and Orchestra Mozart...

FIVE MORE STAR SIGNS for Orchestra: Aries, Bologna 16-9-2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/bsX7OqgIV7E
Nice. Hardly sounds like Stockhausen to me, though. Must be a later style thing.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on October 12, 2008, 05:02:33 PM
After listenig to his Gruppen a few times, I put it aside for later contemplation, which was many months ago!

This week I was surprised by the lucid essay by our - all too often absent - member Alex Ross in The New Yorker, October 13 2008 issue. NOW it makes much more sense, thank you, Alex Ross!

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2008/10/13/081013crmu_music_ross
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Symphonien on October 13, 2008, 10:00:42 PM
Nice. Hardly sounds like Stockhausen to me, though. Must be a later style thing.

Indeed, I was very fascinated and surprised by hearing that too. Nothing like what I expected at all. I will have to get to know some more of his later works. I remember listening to the BBC radio program on him shortly after his death which included an excerpt of Freude for two harps. I was extremely surprised by hearing that one as well and could hardly believe that Stockhausen had written it.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on October 14, 2008, 01:36:44 PM
Indeed, I was very fascinated and surprised by hearing that too. Nothing like what I expected at all. I will have to get to know some more of his later works. I remember listening to the BBC radio program on him shortly after his death which included an excerpt of Freude for two harps. I was extremely surprised by hearing that one as well and could hardly believe that Stockhausen had written it.

Have you, then, heard Freude in its entirety? I can't recommend it highly enough.  In fact, as I get to know the Klang pieces, I'm almost about to declare that Stockhausen was at his lifetime best in these works for solo instruments/small ensembles.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Ugh! on November 07, 2008, 11:23:46 PM
What is the music of his son Markus Stockhausen like?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on November 08, 2008, 08:54:50 PM
What is the music of his son Markus Stockhausen like?

NOTHING like his father's: modern jazz, not unlike some of the stuff ECM put out in its early days. You can hear some samples of the latest Markus release HERE:
http://mp3.de/musik/genre/band/100000/270399/32_212199
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 17, 2009, 11:48:59 AM
you all know he died in december, right?

(1928-2008)

or is he just outside....looking in?

HELIKOPTER QUARTET ....aaaarrrrgh  an infinitely better idea JUST came to me (no doubt from stockhausen himself since we all cohabit the same flux constant)....

and i am copyrighting this now.......gather a collection of birds and animals with the most interesting voices, and make the arditti quartet "communicate" with them,
                                                            and between the creatures and the quartet could be some third kagel/lucier/crumb/stockhausen-type intermediating
                                                                    performance type factor (like water bowls, or resonating something, or a piece of kryptonite...)


HMMM???


but i have always enjoyed his piano music, and i seem to be one of the few who finds GRUPPEN jolly.

reminds me of strangelove + klaus kinski
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on January 17, 2009, 06:28:30 PM
Up next on BBC Radio 3's Hear & Now programme ...

Robert Worby and Sara Mohr-Pietsch introduce coverage of the 2008 Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival. The programme features the UK premiere of Hope - the 9th hour of Stockhausen's KLANG and Outer Nothingness by Sun Ra, alongside music from John Cage: Concert Reclaimed which closed the 2008 festival.

Plus the UK premiere of Knochen by Enno Poppe, who also discusses the work.

>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gnr86

For my money, the Stockhausen was far and away the most substantial piece on that program. I was expecting some pretty good things from the Poppe, whose brief interview before the performance piqued my interest, but the work itself was dull. The show had a sudden ending, as it were; one would expect some audience reaction, commentary or something thereafter, but it wasn't forthcoming.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on January 18, 2009, 05:05:55 PM
Been playing Freude today, the beautiful piece for 2 harps from KLANG; like Gruppen above, I've "painted" my impressions of the work. I received some new art tech for Christmas, so the images are a little less crudely chiseled, at least:
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/37/l_2e580db15e8d432d9a509e6c5777fe4b.jpg)

Hoffnung, the string trio from KLANG, is also very beautiful; looking forward to the Stockhausen-Verlag release of that one.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Ugh! on January 19, 2009, 08:09:14 AM
you all know he died in december, right?

(1928-2008)

or is he just outside....looking in?

HELIKOPTER QUARTET ....aaaarrrrgh  an infinitely better idea JUST came to me (no doubt from stockhausen himself since we all cohabit the same flux constant)....

and i am copyrighting this now.......gather a collection of birds and animals with the most interesting voices, and make the arditti quartet "communicate" with them,
                                                            and between the creatures and the quartet could be some third kagel/lucier/crumb/stockhausen-type intermediating
                                                                    performance type factor (like water bowls, or resonating something, or a piece of kryptonite...)


Dali once proposed a performance in which it was required to throw priests and birds out of a plane onto a small village. You might be the person to finally complete it ;)

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on February 01, 2009, 12:25:54 PM
BBC Radio 3's Hear & Now
Stockhausen: Inori for large orchestra, Nr. 38


>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gsp1y

Synopsis: In a performance given at London's Barbican as part of the Stockhausen Composer Day, Robert Worby presents the BBC Symphony Orchestra in Stockhausen's meditative work Inori.

Written in 1973-74, Inori is based on prayer-like gestures interpreted on stage by a mime and a dancer. The expressive movements, performed by the two silent soloists and drawn from a variety of religious practices, are mirrored in the response of two orchestral groups.

Robert is also joined by Stockhausen authority Robin Maconie to discuss the piece.


I thought Robin Maconie's comments about Inori were fascinating and spot on. When I first heard it back in the early '80s, I thought it was too soft and tuneful compared to the works that I loved, such as Trans, Carré and Momente. But over the years, I've really warmed to it. Hearing it live was, as Maconie stated, a deeply moving experience. Not "moving" as in a Mahler 9 / Tchaikovsky 6 sobfest. I left the concert feeling quietly elated and oddly comforted. I can't really put it into words.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on February 19, 2009, 01:43:57 PM
Thanks to The Rambler, here (http://johnsonsrambler.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/download-of-the-week-karlheinz-stockhausen-aus-den-sieben-tagen/) is Stockhausen's Aus den sieben Tagen (1968), from the 2008 Cut and Splice Festival. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on February 21, 2009, 06:03:55 PM
Thanks to The Rambler, here (http://johnsonsrambler.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/download-of-the-week-karlheinz-stockhausen-aus-den-sieben-tagen/) is Stockhausen's Aus den sieben Tagen (1968), from the 2008 Cut and Splice Festival. 

--Bruce

I couldn't find any way to download/play the thing. Is there, in fact, a link on that page to the concert recordings?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Guido on February 21, 2009, 06:06:56 PM
http://www.stockhausen.org/ksadvice.html

Not sure if this has been posted before - Stockhausen is interviewed for the BBC (in 1995), then gives young pop musicians advice on their compositions, with hilarious results. The young composers then give their retorts with equally hilarious results... This bit starts about half way down the page.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship and Father Brown
Post by: Cato on March 10, 2009, 08:55:07 AM
Recently I have been reaqding some of the Father Brown mysteries by G.K. Chesterton.

In one of the stories I came across a comment by the detective-priest that a crime, even a murderous one, was like a work of art!   :o

Obviously I was reminded immediately of Stockhausen's (in)famous comment of the September 11th attacks as being one of the greatest artworks of all time.

But it seems the Catholic Chesterton, or at least his alter ego, might have agreed!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on March 10, 2009, 11:01:50 AM
I couldn't find any way to download/play the thing. Is there, in fact, a link on that page to the concert recordings?

Sorry, I missed this post.  The Rambler leads to this page below on Classical in the Air, and if you look in the "Comments" you'll see RapidShare links (not sure if they still work). 

http://classicalintheair.blogspot.com/2009/02/karlheinz-stockhausen-aus-den-sieben_15.html

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship + Father Brown: Crime As Art
Post by: Cato on March 10, 2009, 02:43:24 PM
The quote mentioned above from the G.K. Chesterton Father Brown mystery The Queer Feet is as follows:

"A crime," he (i.e. Father Brown) said slowly, "is like any other work of art.  Don't look surprised; crimes are by no means the only works of art that come from an infernal workshop.  But every work of art, divine or diabolic, has one indispensable mark - I mean, that the centre of it is simple, however much the fulfillment may be complicated."

p. 42 of the Everyman paperback of The Best Of Father Brown.

I wonder if Stockhausen knew of this remark, but I suspect it is a case of parallel genius.


Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Moldyoldie on March 17, 2009, 05:32:00 AM
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?")
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NSZP37AKL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Stockhausen: Hymnen (Anthems for Electronic and Concrete Sounds)
Electronic Realization from WDR - Cologne, West Germany
DEUTSCHE GRAMMOPHON (2 LPs)

Avant-garde composer Karlheinz Stockhausen (d. 2007) had his fifteen minutes of quasi-fame in the late-'60s/early-'70s during the height of Cold War tensions and the Vietnam War.  It's difficult to fathom how his musique concrète struck a chord with listeners of serious music at the time since much of it comes off today sounding kitschy and contrived.  One could probably look to the prevailing Zeitgeist which also spawned Dark Side of the Moon and its various offshoots.  I have to say, however, that I was always held spellbound by two of his lengthy works first heard on late-night public radio, Hymnen being one. It combines samplings of several familiar national anthems with the random sounds from shortwave radios and intermittent studio voices to make for a fascinating two-hour journey into the Zen of worldwide electronic communication (or near instantaneous travel) via various electronic filters, mixers, and potentiometers -- it's quite a trip!  I like to think it's metaphorical to a sort of "world anthem".  I hadn't heard this for many years until recently, but even today it fascinates - there's a surprise around every corner!

The work is divided into four "regions" centered around a specific national anthem or conglomeration of anthems. Around these "centers" are juxtaposed electronically generated sounds and voiced multi-lingual phrases; i.e., a commingling of the "known" with the abstract and unknown.  From the composer's notes:  "When one integrates in a composition known music with unknown new music, one can hear especially well how it was integrated: untransformed, more or less transformed, transposed, modulated, etc.  The more self-evident the WHAT, the more attentive the listener becomes to the HOW. Naturally, national anthems are more than that: they are "loaded" with time, with history - with past, present, and future.  They accentuate the subjectivity of peoples in a time when uniformity is all too often mistaken for universality.  One must also make a clear distinction between subjectivity - and correspondence between subjective musical objects - and individualistic isolation and separation.  The composition Hymnen is not a collage" 

However arcane the methodology of its composition, I was personally mesmerized and “attentive” throughout.  Perhaps it's my lifelong fascination with broadcasting which is responsible -- those shortwave band passes are "music" to my ears!

A detailed online discussion of Hymnen can be found beginning here (http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/hymnenintro.htm) and continuing here (http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/hymnenguide.htm).

For the curious, the great bulk of Stockhausen's '60s/'70s discography is no longer available commercially (Deutsche Grammophon dropped its entire Stockhausen discography in the '80s), but recordings of several other works, including my other "spellbound" favorite Stimmung, are available through various online retail sources.  There's one work called the Helicopter String Quartet where each musician goes up in one of four helicopters and their playing is piped back into the concert hall!  :o One can still order CD transfers of the entire large discography directly through Stockhausen's own website (http://www.stockhausen.org/), but at outrageously expensive prices and only pre-paid by check plus an exorbitant handling fee. 

By the way, Stockhausen is fifth from the left in the back row on the cover of The Beatles' album Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, the one leaning with chin in palm.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Novi on March 17, 2009, 09:38:52 AM
Speakin' of this Lucifer character, KS wrote a whole Opera exploring him (& his specially designed melody or melodic "formula"), Samstag aus Licht.


Thanks for posting these clips. I heard Klavierstücke XIII in a recital recently. Terribly strange but also strangely compelling. It was great until the pianist played a glissando with his bottom and I burst out laughing :D :-[.

(I did enjoy the recital, honest!)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on March 19, 2009, 05:26:19 AM
This link leads to some incredible stills (5 pages worth!) from musikFabrik's take on Stockhausen's "trumpet concerto" Michael's Journey Around the Earth from the opera Donnerstag aus LICHT

 Dig out your CD and play it as you peruse these peculiar pictures.  Yes, he is mounted in a crane; yes, that crane is going to be flying him around the stage while he's playing. You bet.   (And if you don't have a Donnerstag CD, these pictures may well remind you why.  :))

I notice that just before Michael leaves New York -- and encounters Lucifer, judging from the threatening red light -- there is a simulation of the World Trade Center attack projected on the big globe. Interesting choice of staging, considering Stockhausen's own comment about that matter. 

Apparently the staff at the Verlag are happy and cooperative about this setting, too, which is a good thing.  I know Stockhausen had his own ideas about staging, but there must be room for development if LICHT is to ever get a fair shake.
 
http://tabledog.at/taschenoper/michael/
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Moldyoldie on April 14, 2009, 09:00:59 AM
[Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?"]
(http://www.rockdiscography.com/pix/stockhausen_stimmung3x3.jpg)
Stockhausen: Stimmung
Collegium Vocale Köln
DEUTSCHE GRAMMOPHON (LP)

First heard by these virgin ears in its entirety on late night public radio sometime in the early '70s, Karlheinz Stockhausen's a capella classic Stimmung still teases the intellect and delights the aural senses. (I hesitate using the term a capella lest I be scolded and reminded that the work is scored for six voices and six microphones!) That there've been at least three succeeding commercial recordings of Stimmung since this original DG release from 1969 (I'm doubting such is the case for any of Stockhausen's myriad other works) certainly attests to the work's continuing fascination among venturesome listeners and performers.  Whatever its composer's influences or inspirations, several of which he imparts in the notes, I'm left smiling by its simple and seemingly inevitable conception -- exploring the artistic possibilities inherent in the merest overtones of the human voice -- brilliant!  What could possibly be more fundamental, more primal, more natural? (Eh, fellow Sibelians?)  I believe even certain Stockhausen naysayers can delight in Stimmung's simple (and often erotic!) vocal ruminations.

The only other recording of Stimmung I've heard is that of Singcircle on the Hyperion label; it's more confident and forthright in its execution; but hardly as intimate, exploratory, and charmingly naive as this original.  However, if one's German is as challenged as mine, Hyperion's text translation is appreciated.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on April 14, 2009, 05:26:59 PM
That there've been at least three succeeding commercial recordings of Stimmung since this original DG release from 1969 (I'm doubting such is the case for any of Stockhausen's myriad other works) certainly attests to the work's continuing fascination among venturesome listeners and performers. 

Um... Stimmung, a work I absolutely love, is hardly unique among Stockhausen's most recorded pieces: Refrain, Zyklus, Im Freundschaft, Tierkreis, Kontakte have as many or more recordings to their credit, and I'm probably missing some others that someone else will fill in.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:49:27 AM
What's that Karl?

You want me to bump your thread?

ok, Karl. Just for you.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 03:55:25 AM
I appreciate that.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on July 07, 2009, 06:42:17 PM
Amazingly, a performance of Michael's Reise is going to be televised on August 10th. More info HERE:

http://www.stockhausen.org/tv_8_10_09.html
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Maciek on September 22, 2009, 04:27:56 AM
There's an all-Stockhausen concert at Warsaw Autumn tonight (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2730.msg357462.html#msg357462).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 23, 2009, 07:23:47 AM
There's an all-Stockhausen concert at Warsaw Autumn tonight (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2730.msg357462.html#msg357462).

So, Maciek, are you able to give us a review?   :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Maciek on September 24, 2009, 01:46:50 PM
Oh, I didn't go to the concert. I was just notifying of the broadcast, in case someone was interested.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 25, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
Oh, I didn't go to the concert. I was just notifying of the broadcast, in case someone was interested.

Were there any reviews, in Polish or English?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Maciek on September 26, 2009, 02:38:21 PM
Were there any reviews, in Polish or English?

I'm not aware of any. But that doesn't mean anything.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CD on October 04, 2009, 07:59:01 AM
self-sufficient performable 'module' or portion of scene 3 from Samstag...

KINNTANZ vom SAMSTAG aus LICHT (8'42)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/v9kfjCf9wAU


Lucifer with the euphonium. >:D

That sounded really good!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on October 06, 2009, 09:16:42 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCs1-O0cL._SS400_.jpg)

New release from a very distinguished ensemble!
Four chamber works from the 1950s that became cornerstones of the avant-garde,
each illustrating a new phase in Stockhausen's former work.

Content:
KONTRA-PUNKTE for ten instruments (11:51)
REFRAIN for piano, celesta, and percussion  (11:52)
ZEITMASZE for five woodwinds (12:47)
SCHLAGTRIO for piano and percussion (15:11)

ensemble recherche / conductor: Rupert Huber
booklet writer: Richard Toop
That looks really interesting--what label is it coming out on?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on October 06, 2009, 09:34:34 AM
The top right hand corner of the disc cover says WERGO, so that'd be my guess.  :)
Heh. The image didn't load when I looked last time, otherwise I think I'd have managed to answer that for myself. :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on March 25, 2010, 12:47:56 AM
March 18th &19th 2010  Birmingham ENGLAND
Stockhausen: CARRÉ (for 4 orchestras & choirs)
Tallis: Spem in Alium
Allegri: Miserere
Striggio: tba
Berio: Laborintus II

Students from Birmingham University Music Departments.
Soloists:  Angela Tunstall, Sarah D’Ugo and Jessica Summers plus Alan Belk (speaker)
Q Club 212 Corporation Street Birmingham. 7-10pm

Tickets available at The Barber Institute 0121 414 7333 
email: concert@barber.org.uk after December 1st
no price announced

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Somehow I missed this post and only heard about the concert when it was reviewed in the Guardian on Monday. I don't suppose I'll ever get to hear Carré in the flesh now. It's especially frustrating because the only recording is apparently slightly cut and I'm guessing that the Brummie performance was complete. Sob.  ???
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on March 25, 2010, 03:02:12 AM
The Birmingham performance of Carré was recorded and a surround-sound release is foreseen.

I've always been baffled that Stockhausen-Verlag offered only stereo mixdowns of Stockhausen. What did they have against DVD-Audio or SACD releases?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on March 25, 2010, 05:17:17 AM
The Birmingham performance of Carré was recorded and a surround-sound release is foreseen.



Gasp! Are you serious?! Wow! Do you know what label it will be released on and when it's due? This is brilliant news. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on March 25, 2010, 03:39:01 PM
MDL ... i have the Verlag release of it (coupled with Gruppen) and it's not cut, where you getting your info?


I hope you're right! I would be happy to be told that I was having a phantom memory.

But I'm sure that, 20 years or so ago, I read in a book, perhaps Robin Maconie's, that Carré was cut when it was recorded, presumably so that it would fit on one side of an LP; I have both the LP and the CD versions, which are identical.

The gist of the argument was that because Carré was a moment-form piece, it was possible to remove sections from it, and that this had been done to the recorded version.

All I can find on the web at the moment is this:

"Stockhausen's 'Carre' for four orchestras was performed in Hamburg on .... The sections which were finally cut in the performance were either ones in which ..."

The full quote is buried somewhere in an article by Cornelius Cardew but I can't navigate my way around it:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/951181

And at the very end of this audio clip (I don't know where the performance came from), there's a short section that I don't recognise from the DG/Verlag recording. It may be that the interpretation is radically different (although the rest of it seems very familiar) or it could be a section that was cut from the original recording. See what you think. Again, I'd be happy to be told I was wrong.

http://www.universaledition.com/Karlheinz-Stockhausen/composers-and-works/composer/698/work/1521

From 2:45 to 2:59.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on March 25, 2010, 04:56:11 PM
But I'm sure that, 20 years or so ago, I read in a book, perhaps Robin Maconie's, that Carré was cut when it was recorded, presumably so that it would fit on one side of an LP; I have both the LP and the CD versions, which are identical.

I just checked Maconie's book (both the original and the more recent version) and there's no mention of such cuts. In fact, the duration stated is the one in the 1960 recording (30:50) and not the one in the score (36 minutes). In any case we know how the lengths of actual recordings can differ substantially from the duration specified in the score. Perhaps some of the inserts were indeed cut.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on March 25, 2010, 11:50:31 PM
I just checked Maconie's book (both the original and the more recent version) and there's no mention of such cuts. In fact, the duration stated is the one in the 1960 recording (30:50) and not the one in the score (36 minutes). In any case we know how the lengths of actual recordings can differ substantially from the duration specified in the score. Perhaps some of the inserts were indeed cut.

I'm racking my brains to try and remember where I read that quote. I've been googling the phrase "the recorded version of Carré is cut" with various follow-ons because that's what I vaguely recall. No luck yet!

By the way, did you sample the audio clip? I'm sure there's a brief section in there that was cut from the recording.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Kaiser on April 11, 2010, 05:02:05 PM
I've been listening to some Stockhausen recently (being very new to listening and learning about him) - some downloads here and there, but this weekend I was pleasantly surprised to find a copy of "Song of the Youths / Contact" on LP at a used shop. The sound of these pieces on vinyl was a revelation - much better than the downloaded version I'd heard previously. And the record wasn't too expensive either - a plus! Very fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on April 11, 2010, 05:17:16 PM
I've been listening to some Stockhausen recently (being very new to listening and learning about him) - some downloads here and there, but this weekend I was pleasantly surprised to find a copy of "Song of the Youths / Contact" on LP at a used shop. The sound of these pieces on vinyl was a revelation - much better than the downloaded version I'd heard previously. And the record wasn't too expensive either - a plus! Very fascinating stuff.

Glad to hear you found that LP; pre-1970 Stockhausen is overall very very good. If you're really into vinyl, you should try to find Hymnen or Kurzwellen on LP.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Kaiser on April 11, 2010, 06:47:29 PM
Glad to hear you found that LP; pre-1970 Stockhausen is overall very very good. If you're really into vinyl, you should try to find Hymnen or Kurzwellen on LP.

I will keep my eyes out for those. Actually, I've come to the conclusion that just about any Stockhausen vinyl I bump into that is not insanely expensive is coming home with me! Would it be true enough to figure that post-1970 Stockhausen is more "hit and miss"? I know the whole idea of tackling his "Licht" project in its entirety is enough to give me the willies for sure. I'm more likely to check out certain pieces based on reviews here and elsewhere.
--------- Chris
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on April 12, 2010, 06:21:55 AM
I will keep my eyes out for those. Actually, I've come to the conclusion that just about any Stockhausen vinyl I bump into that is not insanely expensive is coming home with me! Would it be true enough to figure that post-1970 Stockhausen is more "hit and miss"? I know the whole idea of tackling his "Licht" project in its entirety is enough to give me the willies for sure. I'm more likely to check out certain pieces based on reviews here and elsewhere.
--------- Chris

Yes, in my opinion post-1970 Stockhausen is a lot more miss than hit. Some of the hits are e.g. Mantra and Natürliche Dauern.

I find LICHT in general to be unpalatable except for Mittwoch and some of the instrumental or orchestral works; the vocal stuff is abhorrent and the electronic (other than that in Mittwoch, that is) really needs to be listened to in concert--on CD it is just plain cheesy and timbrally flat.

KLANG seems to be a bit better. I absolutely love Natürliche Dauern, which sounds like a return to the good piano writing of the 50s and 60s Klavierstücke; Freude is also quite good; the vocal works with electronic music like Havona or Urantia don't do it for me; Cosmic Pulses, the big electronic work from KLANG, falls into the timbrally cheesy and flat category--though I concede it should be impressive in concert.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Kaiser on April 14, 2010, 11:17:44 AM
Thank you both James and petrArch! I appreciate the varied perspectives you have offered and will seek out the pieces you have mentioned. What I am finding most compelling about what Stockhausen I've heard thus far is the "other-ness" of the music. It is quite unlike anything else I've encountered which is stimulating! Being a fan of the music of Miles Davis' electric period, it is fascinating to consider how that music was informed by Stockhausen's influence (Miles was an outspoken admirer of Stockhausen). Following the link James provided for LICHT, I was surprised to read of the connection to and influence of the famed Urantia Book (which I never read myself, but have heard of through the music of Jaco Pastorius and others). I imagine Stockhausen was quite taken with this book to have constructed a 29-hour opus as a reaction to it. I can't say that I am keen on reading it myself - I'd rather spend the time listening to the music in fact. In this regard, Stockhausen reminds me a bit of Sun Ra. One doesn't need to buy into the philosophy in order to appreciate the music inspired by that philosophy.
------------ Chris
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on April 14, 2010, 01:21:55 PM
I imagine Stockhausen was quite taken with this book to have constructed a 29-hour opus as a reaction to it.

Though I've forgotten his name, there's a composer who was a student of Stockhausen in the mid-1970s, and he says that Stockhausen's lectures at that point had become little more than tedious readings from the Urantia Book. That Stockhausen was "quite taken with the book" is an understatement.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on April 14, 2010, 06:18:24 PM
Chris ... that entry in wiki is flat out incorrect, Licht is not based on the Urantia book. He didn't discover that book until later...

While LICHT is indeed not based on the Urantia Book, Stockhausen had discovered the book by the early 1970s, well before he began work on LICHT.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Kaiser on April 15, 2010, 03:01:12 AM
Chris ... that entry in wiki is flat out incorrect, Licht is not based on the Urantia book. He didn't discover that book until later .. and he merely used some of the unique names found in the book to title some of the later Klang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klang_(Stockhausen)) cycle pieces, there is no deep significance or connection beyond that.

Ah! Thanks for clearing that up. I suppose wiki being what it is helped to confuse matters. Still pretty fascinating stuff in both cases.
---------- Chris
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 08, 2010, 01:34:05 PM
(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/45/14345.jpg)

This brilliant performance was recorded in 1983 in consultation with the composer.

Worth mentioning that there's also the reference recording of the work on SV (CD 12), containing two studio recordings (1969 and 1982) by the Collegium Vocale Köln (for whom the work was composed) under the supervision of Stockhausen.
 
(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco2/Rec/Stockhausen/IR12.jpg)

The score is a good complement to the CD, as beyond the notation it also details the overall formal scheme and all the models used. Some of this information is contained in the extensive liner notes on the SV CD.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 08, 2010, 03:15:48 PM
A couple of weeks ago I got a bunch of SV CDs (my third bulk order from the Verlag), including CD66, Mittwochs-Gruss.

This is another CD containing electronic music from Licht (like CD41 or CD49), this one taken from Mittwoch aus Licht. The electronic music contained here is used in Michaelion, scene 4 from the opera, a work for choir, voices and ensemble.

Following a previous thread where I discussed my disappointment with Cosmic Pulses and some of the other electronic music works taken from Licht (like Oktophonie from Dienstag or Elektronische Musik mit Tonszenen from Freitag) I am happy to say that Mittwochs-Gruss fares much better. There are still some boring sections, but overall the timbres are less bland than those in the other works. A worthwhile 55 minutes of listening.

One other CD I also ordered was CD55, which contains Mittwochs-Abschied, another electronic music work from Mittwoch.

This is the electronic and concrete music used in Orchester-Finalisten, scene 2 from the opera. As discussed in the thread mentioned above, Orchester-Finalisten is a work I like very much, especially for the ambience and atmosphere provided by the concrete sounds; given that Mittwochs-Abschied is everything in it but the instrument parts, it is indeed a truly enjoyable 44 minutes of listening.

Mittwoch is really the only opera from Licht that I can listen to without cringing.

(http://www.dmethods.com/music/svcd66.jpg)  (http://www.dmethods.com/music/svcd55.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 08, 2010, 04:56:16 PM
I have both of those ... quite sick, tho personally I think I prefer the electronic music from Dienstag's 2nd Act (Oktophonie), very powerful, but especially Freitag w/ sound scenes. I just enjoy the music & sound of those a lot.

Just curious petrArch, it's a lot to take in (29hrs) but what (if any) would be your "Licht Highlights"? ... (besides the things from Mittwoch you have already mentioned)

What I can't definitely swallow are the works with voice (but then even Momente is difficult for my taste), so bar some notable exceptions I'll usually take any solo, small ensemble or orchestra works. I don't find piano pieces XV-XVII interesting or captivating like I do I-XI, and XII-XIV are passable (however I do like Natürliche Dauern from Klang very much, which proved to me that Stockhausen could still write great piano music almost 50 years later).

As for highlights, it's difficult for me to say what stands out from Licht, other than (coincidentally) the works in Mittwoch, although Welt-Parlament falls in the not my cup of tea category. To me, Licht is just a haze of notes (of the musical kind), text and mythology that sometimes combine into interesting music. And that which is interesting has to be taken in their isolated releases (the variety of transcriptions provides plenty of material to explore); I would never buy the box sets of each of the operas (well, maybe Mittwoch, if it was available--I already have a full performance of it on mp3).

There is something about the formulas in Licht that doesn't appeal to my ear. It's probably a combination of factors that makes those works far less palatable than generally those up to Mantra. And there's a whole lot of more interesting music composed in the late 70s and through the 80s and 90s.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 09, 2010, 04:41:30 AM
(...) tho personally I think I prefer the electronic music from Dienstag's 2nd Act (Oktophonie), very powerful, but especially Freitag w/ sound scenes. I just enjoy the music & sound of those a lot.

I'll give those two a listen this afternoon. It's been close to 10 years since I got those CDs and I must confess I played them only 2 or 3 times when I got them but never since; perhaps I'll be able to listen to them with different ears now and that'll rehabilitate them to my pantheon of Stockhausen's electronic music.
Title: Listened to Oktophonie again
Post by: petrarch on May 09, 2010, 07:37:25 AM
This was probably the first time I heard Oktophonie on a high-end system (when I got the CD in 2001 I only had a small system and listened to most of this stuff on headphones) so today I was able to listen to it at a reasonably high volume and enjoy the expansive sound stage.

My earlier judgment still applies to some extent (long, boring, largely unengaging timbrally), however there were sections that stood out and sparked some much needed interest:

1. The Eva segment followed by the counting 1-7 tracks (tracks 32 and 33 on the CD).
2. The Pietà 9 minute bridge on part 2 (tracks 54-58 on the CD).

The rest hovers between long/boring and barely passable. One of the things that detracts from my enjoyment is how the various changes in the action (klangbombes et al) sound too foreign and break the overall flow, feeling more like inserts and interruptions. As I mentioned before, the stereo reduction is probably not making the music any justice; it surely makes a lot more sense when listened to in concert with the spatialization properly perceived as integral to the music.

I think the Eva segment stood out because it felt like a relieving lull after 16 minutes of stuff happening all over the place--the long, wavering and arbitrary glissandi, those unfortunate metallic interjections, the relentless pedal all give way to a more sonically ethereal section. However, that doesn't last long as track 34 brings us back to where we were before.

At least the Pietà is a reasonably long uninterrupted segment that is more cohesive and very enjoyable.

(http://www.dmethods.com/music/svcd41.jpg)

I have the electronic music CD from Freitag now playing and I have to agree, it is better than Oktophonie.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on May 09, 2010, 11:37:05 AM
Has anybody heard the 1998 version of Momente? I love the previous two versions, especially the longer 1972 recording, and I'm thinking of trying to get over my phobia of ordering from the Stockhausen Verlag to hear this performance. How does it measure up?


CD 80   MOMENTE / MOMENTS for soprano, four choir groups and thirteen instrumentalists
Version 1998 (2 CDs)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 09, 2010, 01:43:59 PM
I noticed in your collection you have the Synthi-Fou set, how is that?

The first CD has a solo synthesizer version of Synthi-Fou, "for study purposes only", then Synthi-Fou/Klavierstück XV proper, for synthesizer and electronic music, then Dienstag-Abschied, for choir, synthesizer and electronic music. The second CD has separate recordings of each of the sounds used in Synthi-Fou.

Klavierstück XV works slightly better than the electronic music as presented in isolation in Oktophonie or the solo synthesizer part, because there is a much better sense of integration and development (ignoring for the moment the poor "ROMpler"-like timbres used throughout). I don't care for the version with choir--makes me want to go back to Scelsi's Uaxuctum to listen to great writing for choir ;).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 09, 2010, 02:05:30 PM
Licht has a lot of instrumental sections, bits, pieces, fragments, layers, transcriptions for a variety of forces, plenty of mondo bitchin' solos (prominently for brass & wind instruments, which I prefer to other instruments generally) etc.

Yes, I know :). I am moving to Hong Kong in August and before I go I intend to stock up on the instrumental Stockhausen from Licht (roughly what I'm missing from the Verlag) and some of the solo and ensemble scores.
Title: Re: Listened to Oktophonie again
Post by: petrarch on May 11, 2010, 06:20:30 PM
I have the electronic music CD from Freitag now playing and I have to agree, it is better than Oktophonie.

It is way better. I am surprised at how much I enjoyed listening to this over the weekend (and how much I didn't 9 years ago, leading to a perhaps premature dismissal). In the meantime I got the full Freitag on FLAC and I must say that I am tempted to get the box set to have the Gruss and Abschied in their original form, that is without the "interruptions" of each of the sound scenes as presented on the double CD (in the opera version those two sections flow very well). I seemed to detect (on a cursory listening) some slight mixing differences, but that might be my memory playing tricks between critical and casual listening.

I am not totally sold on the timbres used (here we go again), but here the thing actually sort of works. I am very happy to have "discovered" this properly now and that I got those CDs on rotation after being dormant for almost a decade. Now, to explore the middle sections of Freitag :-\...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 11, 2010, 06:42:10 PM
So it looks like Freitag repeats the electronic music of Gruss and Abschied twice. Basically, the 1st act adds the sound scenes and real scenes on top of the electronic music for Gruss, and the 2nd act adds sound scenes and real scenes on top of Abschied.

Thus between the quadruple CD of the opera and the double CD of the electronic music with sound scenes we have 3 versions each of Freitags-Gruss and Freitags-Abschied: 1. plain (just the electronic music without the prerecorded inserts, aka sound scenes), on CDs 1 and 4 of the opera; 2. with sound scenes, on the double CD; 3. with sound scenes and real scenes (the instrumental and vocal parts), on CDs 2 and 3 of the opera.

At 70 + 79 minutes times 3, it is a lot of material with the same foundation. However each of the variants seems to work well on its own, making it worthwhile to have both the opera and the double CD without any fears of duplication and redundancy.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 12, 2010, 09:49:46 AM
There is also a disc in the Stockhausen edition that just has the sound scenes/couples on their own.

To be clear, that disc has the real scenes, not the sound scenes/couples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freitag_aus_Licht

While the wikipedia entry has some basic information about the opera, I recommend the book Other Planets by Robin Maconie for in-depth information about Stockhausen's whole oeuvre. It is in fact an updated revision of his 1976 text Works of Karlheinz Stockhausen, brought up-to-date with the works composed since then, including Licht. It has extensive coverage of Freitag and all of its constituent parts and their variants.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 12, 2010, 02:16:55 PM
Edition 48 (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=43:108398) is the 12 sound scenes/couples layer on it's own

Indeed it is. I had thought I had seen it somewhere, but then reading the Freitag chapter on Maconie I saw no mention of SV48, just 65 (besides 49 and 50, of course).

And regarding Klang, I am glad that cycle is devoid of any gratuitous, sometimes silly and camp, other times pretentious, mythology mixed with personal references.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 17, 2010, 04:38:44 PM
I gave Welt-Parlament and Sonntag a shot this weekend. I know what is grating to my ears, now: It's the operatic vibrato. Stockhausen should have notated all of the vocal parts with a senza vibrato sempre in the manner of some Nono scores.

Welt-Parlament is interesting enough that I will likely buy the CD, so it is another piece that confirms that Mittwoch is indeed to my liking.

Sonntag has exceedingly good instrumental writing, perhaps because I really enjoy this type of sparse instrumental textures; I kept wishing that the voices be taken out, though ;). Lichter-Wasser and Licht-Bilder may grow on me just based on the instrumental writing--the clear, straight sound of the voices alleviates some of my distaste for them; didn't care much for Engel-Prozessionen; Düfte-Zeichen and Hoch-Zeiten fare better, there's indeed some great potential there; Sonntags-Abschied unfortunately didn't really engage me, the same material is vastly more interesting in Hoch-Zeiten (although I would love to listen to the version for soloist and tape, aka Klavierstück XIX).

I'll probably add another 4 CDs to my next order: Lichter-Wasser, Licht-Bilder, Düfte-Zeichen and Hoch-Zeiten.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 17, 2010, 05:44:36 PM
I think there are 3 versions of Hoch-Zeiten, one that's just orchestra, one that's just choir, & one that is choir & orchestra.

The versions just for orchestra and just for choir are for study purposes only. The version with both is the "true" version, with the orchestra and choir parts performed simultaneously but in different venues, with sound from the other venue being projected and mixed in live. The audience is supposed to change rooms when the work ends, and listen to it again but from the other room.

I now have all 7 operas on the computer and will be checking them out systematically and gauging whether they are worth buying. I am definitely ordering those 4 out of the 6 Sonntag CDs.

Over the weekend I heard some of Klang's Paradies and it was pretty awesome ... what sorta irks me is that it's issued on a single disc, the piece is roughly 18 minutes long, and the rest of the disc is filled out with what? The electronic music itself? and? Couldn't they just group some of these shorter Klang pieces together on a single release for chrissakes. Poor planning imo.

Can you point me to it? I've been trying to find it just to check what it sounds like, although I imagine the electronics will be based on Cosmic Pulses.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 19, 2010, 04:17:51 PM
Stockhausen.org has posted a series of these articles and radio mp3s (http://www.stockhausen.org/radio_KLANG.html) now (all in German) where you can hear tiny snippets of Paradies etc. within

Thanks, those were very helpful. It is as I feared; sonically, the electronic sounds are bland, although Paradies appears to be a little better than Urantia. I guess he couldn't get away from that kind of preset sound when writing for keyboard (i.e. note-based music) as opposed to for tape (i.e. object-based music)--just compare with e.g. the variety and freshness of the tape for Kontakte.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 19, 2010, 05:31:34 PM
say wha? note-based vs. object-based?

Note-based as in being fully notated like with a piano and restricted to what you can do with a keyboard: Press key x with velocity y and perhaps wiggle the pitch bend and the modulation wheel; all notes on the keyboard sound basically the same with a simple shift in frequency along the keyboard.

Object-based as in the Pierre Schaeffer sense. In other words, without the restrictions of note-based sound production: For example, splicing of tape to expand the timbral evolution and frequency or amplitude contours, which is not easily reproducible by pressing key x with velocity y (unless, of course you are using a sampler, but then that is sort of the same as using tape).

They are simply 2 entirely different works with different goals & characteristics ...
(a good thing)

Fair enough. Regardless, I find one vastly more interesting and engaging than the other.

I like Kontakte but quite frankly I don't agree with you that the clean electronic surface timbres that he uses are "bland" ... they work quite well with what he was doing & I like them a lot and the music itself has a lot of variety.

I agree that Paradies sounds interesting, and definitely better than Havona and Urantia even from that very small extract. However, the electronic sounds are not much more than a synthesizer with a dry bell-like sound, and a lot of glissandi and tremolandi. And this is what bothers me to no end; it seems that the flute writing might compensate for the lack of interest of the electronic sounds, but there's a whole lot out there having richer, more engaging electronic sounds. I absolutely don't see how could Stockhausen devolve into this use of electronics after so many wonderful, breathtaking masterpieces (Kontakte, Hymnen, etc). Stockhausen in the 2000s is using simple, common place pseudo-preset sounds that have been there since the DX7 hit the market in the early 80s. They are bland; they're lifeless. Compare for example with the collage and computer-generated sounds of Wolfgang Mitterer's Music for checking emails--here's a link to the first movement: http://www.col-legno.com/pics_db/hallo_mr_bruckner.mp3
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 20, 2010, 03:50:56 AM
That link you posted isn't working for me.

Delete the trailing dot (I guess the URL algorithm of the GMG forum isn't smart enough). I've edited my post to remove it.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 20, 2010, 03:00:15 PM
Polished surface production but it doesnt really do much for me to be honest - sounds like movie music backdrop. Derivative.anonymous. Stockhausen is leagues beyond this creatively.

I knew you were going to say something like that :D, but creativity is beside the point. What is the point is the "freshness" and "variety" of the sounds, something that uses synthesized/computer-based/processed sound beyond preset #1 on the keyboard and is reminiscent of Telemusik or Hymnen.

But I am not surprised by your reaction, which in a way is similar to mine--I'm not engaged by the sounds used by Stockhausen, you are not engaged by Mitterer's discourse, and that affects the appreciation of the whole.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 20, 2010, 06:32:38 PM
Well quite frankly it doesnt sound musically or creatively all that "fresh" (you even point this out in a way i.e. reminiscent things done in the 60s).. I like to hear creativity first & foremost, it's paramount ... without it "freshness" & "variety" is impossible. I would never buy the Mitterer thing you posted, it just sounds like an assemblage of shit i've heard before; it's boring & uninteresting. Like movie music backdrop. It doesnt phase me. You can have the fanciest or most polished colorful surface sound production in the world but I never confuse this with real stuff.substance.

Again, it was about the sounds and not the piece. The aesthetic and taste discussion is for another time.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 22, 2010, 05:06:09 AM
Over the weekend I heard some of Klang's Paradies and it was pretty awesome ... what sorta irks me is that it's issued on a single disc, the piece is roughly 18 minutes long, and the rest of the disc is filled out with what? The electronic music itself? and? Couldn't they just group some of these shorter Klang pieces together on a single release for chrissakes. Poor planning imo.

I think that SV hasn't clearly decided what they want to do with the recordings and scores--they are torn between 1) documenting Stockhausen's work for posterity (it is well-known that Stockhausen was growing unhappy with the fragmented nature of published works by DG and the uncertainty surrounding their continued availability); 2) fulfilling the demand of people who merely want to enjoy the music; and 3) provide study and didactic material for professional and amateur musicians.

I think certain releases are more of #3 than #2, especially in some of the latest material (click tracks on a CD, why should I care? If I want to perform the work, I would rent the click track tape...). Since releases have caught up with composition and recording of new works, there is less flexibility in packaging and combining works in an optimal way, so I guess SV will face the challenge of waiting until there is meaningful material to package a full CD or of quickly recouping the expense of performing and recording the works.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 23, 2010, 09:31:24 AM
In the future, I'd love to see a complete Klang cycle boxed set ... even if it's not from SV. We'll probably be dead & gone before anything like that happens tho.

Yeah, the complete Klang would be very interesting, but I wonder how many discs it would be (with all the alternative instrument combinations) and how steep a price tag it would command if it came from SV (plus all the notes would make a huge booklet).

Just placed another order with SV... ~20 CDs coming my way, should be here in 4 weeks or so.

Also, Kathinka just told me CD 93 (Orvonton) and 95 (Nebadon) are at the factory, with more of Klang coming out soon. Nebadon is probably like Paradies, being for solo instrument and electronic music.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 02, 2010, 07:29:35 AM
As an FYI, the version of Punkte presented on that CD is also available on the Verlag (CD 81, in addition to the original recording on CD 2). I am not sure whether it commands the full price of an SV release just for that work, though the liner notes alone might be worth it. Also, for those who enjoy Gruppen immensely (like I do), there is a bonus feature in Simon Rattle's Leaving Home DVD series containing a full filmed performance of the work.

One thing I always found curious about Gruppen is how the tempi follow the equal temperament scale (i.e. with approximate irrational ratios) but the rhythms follow the just intonation scale (i.e. ratios of small integers). This inconsistency is an example of how arbitrary Stockhausen's compositional approach is, despite the image of absolute order and of purity of design.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 03, 2010, 06:01:44 AM
Trans_(Stockhausen)]Trans[/url], which is OK, but I could easily live without. Mixtur 2003? Hymnen mit orchester? etc.?

http://www.stockhausen.org/works_for_orchestra.pdf

Gasp! Trans was the first work by Stockhausen that I got to know. Perhaps that's one reason why I love it so much. I think it's one of his most inventive pieces and unlike so much of his later music, doesn't drag on for ages. But each to their own.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 04, 2010, 04:10:46 PM
most inventive, really? Compared to Gruppen & others. :o

And much of his later music doesn't drag on for ages, you have many options to digest & perform it in innumerable ways. i.e. Licht.

Well, Gruppen, Carre, Momente and Trans are my fave Stockhausen pieces, followed by Gesang, Punkte and Kontakte. I listened to Donnerstag when it was first broadcast on the radio back in the early 1980s and was spellbound for the entire duration. I've only heard Saturday and Friday since then, and neither has impressed me as much. I've heard good things about Monday and Tuesday. Which Licht opera would you recommend to me?

(I have to say I never, ever want to hear Musik im Bauch again.)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 05, 2010, 12:45:34 AM
Thanks, James, for spending so much time writing such a detailed and informative run-through of the Licht operas. It's really helpful. I've already got the recordings of Thursday and Saturday. I remember seeing Monday in Harold Moores record shop in Soho many years ago, but it cost well over £100 and I chickened out of buying it, which I regret now because I'm sure I spend that much a month on booze.   ;D

I'm going to go back and read your post again, and decide which opera I should tackle next. Tuesday sounds fun...

Regards!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 07, 2010, 01:41:25 PM
And while we're talking Klavierstücke, here's an oldie but goodie--a quick analysis of Klavierstück X by Florent Boffard:

http://fboffard.free.fr/stock.html
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 08, 2010, 04:22:44 PM
CD 42 (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/ksce42.html) has more extensive coverage of Klavierstück XV/Synthi-Fou, but I wonder if Antonio Pérez Abellán's version is better or fresher than Simon Stockhausen's, which always seemed constrained and too high-brow to my ears.

I'll also eventually get Ellen Corver's recording of I-XIV. The only reason I haven't ordered it yet is that Kontarsky's is really the greatest reference for I-XI, with excellent sound quality and perfect rendition, and I am afraid I'll be disappointed with Corver's after getting so attuned to the Kontarsky (the Henck on Wergo was a major disappointment). And besides, there's a lot of other stuff in the SV catalog I want to get before I fork out the $$$ for CD 56 ;).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2010, 06:39:37 AM
An [inordinate] amount of ridiculous, not-so-level headed, grandiose, philosophical rambling & mythology . . . I am grateful for this description of what I often find in this thread ; )
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2010, 07:52:22 AM
Watched a performance of Gruppen on DVD.  Piece is all right, but does not IMO rise to the level of the unctuous hype.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 16, 2010, 03:27:57 AM
Just placed another order with SV... ~20 CDs coming my way, should be here in 4 weeks or so.

Just received CDs 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, 32, 35, 43, 45, 58, 62, 68, 69, 73, 79, 80 and 86, filling most of the gaps I had on CDs up to 40. Now, if I weren't traveling for work so much... I might put some of these on my ipod to take them with me, but I will certainly miss reading the booklets.

Oh and in the meantime, I found mp3 files of Klang 5, 7, 9, 10, 14, 19 and 20, so, a lot of stuff to go through.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on June 16, 2010, 03:39:19 AM
Lord bless you.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 16, 2010, 04:16:20 AM
If it weren't for tastes, yellow would be in clear disuse.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on June 16, 2010, 12:37:14 PM
If it weren't for tastes, yellow would be in clear disuse.

That's the right spirit!  Good to know that there are Stockhausen enthusiasts who are not Taste Nazis ; )
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 17, 2010, 12:04:59 AM
Just received CDs 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, 32, 35, 43, 45, 58, 62, 68, 69, 73, 79, 80 and 86, filling most of the gaps I had on CDs up to 40. Now, if I weren't traveling for work so much... I might put some of these on my ipod to take them with me, but I will certainly miss reading the booklets.

Oh and in the meantime, I found mp3 files of Klang 5, 7, 9, 10, 14, 19 and 20, so, a lot of stuff to go through.

Respect! Have you won the lottery or something? You're going to have to retire to have the time to catch up on all that music. Or at least throw the mother of all sickies.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 17, 2010, 02:50:25 AM
Respect! Have you won the lottery or something? You're going to have to retire to have the time to catch up on all that music. Or at least throw the mother of all sickies.

I already had some of the stuff in there on the computer, so it's not like it's all new to me. But yes, I'll be spending the next few months going through those CDs (and some other recent purchases).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 17, 2010, 04:14:40 PM
That's the right spirit!  Good to know that there are Stockhausen enthusiasts who are not Taste Nazis ; )

One man's Stockhausen is another's Henning.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 17, 2010, 05:03:49 PM
I notice some interesting choices (for you at least) considering you don't really dig his choral/vocal bag a whole lot...

-CD 23 Atmen Gibt Das Leben choir opera with orchestra (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/ksce23.html) (i've never heard this one yet)
-CD 80 Momente for soprano, four choir groups and thirteen instrumentalists Version 1998 (2 CDs) (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/ksce80.html)

Atmen Gibt Das Leben is in that grey area of vocal works that, like Stimmung and Weltparlament, are texturally interesting and worth listening. Despite what I said the other day about Weltparlament, it is quite listenable.

Momente is... Momente, what else can be said? I really want to compare it with CD7 and check the "totally different dramatic effect".

On the topic of vocal works, I'll probably also get Litanei 97 sometime in the future. Preliminary listens suggest the piece is worthwhile. One I definitely won't get is Sirius... I have the FLAC and it is just unlistenable, even if it does have the odd interesting (instrumental + electronic music) segment. Heard it live 20 years ago last month and haven't warmed up to it at all; the pre-concert conference about it was more interesting than the work.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 18, 2010, 12:23:52 AM
Atmen Gibt Das Leben is in that grey area of vocal works that, like Stimmung and Weltparlament, are texturally interesting and worth listening.

I like the original version of Atem (the short choral work coupled on vinyl with Punkte). I never really got on with the extended version, which simply carries on where the original finished, adding an orchestra and developing in quite a different style. Having said that, I haven't heard it for a decade if not longer; I must dig out my record player and give it another go.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 18, 2010, 12:30:36 AM
Watched a performance of Gruppen on DVD.  Piece is all right, but does not IMO rise to the level of the unctuous hype.

Interesting opinion! If nothing else, though, Gruppen seems to be one of the few works of the period to have captured the public's imagination. It must be one of the avant-garde's greatest hits, along with Berio's Sinfonia, Penderecki's St Luke Passion and a few bits of Messiaen and Ligeti.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 18, 2010, 01:58:16 PM
Just curious what do you think of the group improvisational stuff like Aus Den Sieben Tagen or Für kommende Zeiten? Or stuff you hear generated in performances of Kurzwellen, Spiral, Pole, Prozession, Ylem and works like this from that period ...

I like all of those, some more than others of course. I enjoy pointillistic avant-garde music quite a bit, so it helps that the "vocabulary" of the ensembles playing those works is colored by Webernian/post-1945 serialism.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 23, 2010, 07:28:31 AM
I'm so thankful that he himself realized this & got back to more highly focused & thoughtful writing ... starting with Mantra & others.

"Realized" is probably too strong a word. The music is still highly focused and thoughtful, it is just that it was written/specified differently. Stockhausen has written on the subject of intuitive music, and his moving on to other idioms is just natural progression.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 24, 2010, 03:07:08 AM
Speaking of which, I've finally heard the 2 Klavierstucke from Freitag.

And what did you think? In my opinion the synthesizer Klavierstücke I have (XV-XVIII) sound a bit weak and flat. The version of XV with electronic music is slightly better than without; the alternate version of XVIII for percussion is much "richer" and "engaging" to my ears than the original synthesizer version.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 29, 2010, 03:32:29 AM
Momente is... Momente, what else can be said? I really want to compare it with CD7 and check the "totally different dramatic effect".

So I spent some time listening to CD80. The switch of moments does indeed change the overall flow of the piece. I'm not a fan of moment I(k) at all, so its move to the second "half" was a very welcome change and makes the new recording immediately gripping--it is one of those that when you start listening to it you just can't stop. The new opening is quite striking.

Sonically, there is some improvement (which is natural since it was done 25 years after the original on CD7), with a clearer and less diffuse sound, which helps in defining the soundstage better. The replacement of the organs with synthesizers works quite well which, with the clearer sound, gives the piece a more refined overall timbre, even if it sounds less "organic" than the 1972 version. I also prefer the new soprano, whose "lightness of touch" better integrates with the whole.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 06:22:29 AM
BTW, I've decided I do need to reel Mantra back in.  It may wind up being the only Stockhausen I ever need.  We shall see : )
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 10:04:31 AM
I thought that you were already familar with this one ...

I am, used to own the disc.  My sense of adventure is lively and regularly exercised, BTW.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 10:20:15 AM
Life must be a constant source of irritation to you, James.  Look at you, complaining that I want to resume listening to Stockhausen!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2010, 10:29:52 AM
Yea but you choose to return to familar ground here, typical ....

Honi soit qui mal y pense.
 
(And since you repeated the post — mysteriously deleting the first instance — your sustained efforts give the lie to supposedly "not caring." Pity you have no higher ambition than to be a turd in the punchbowl.  Glad it's not my punchbowl, though.)
 
Edit :: corrected italics
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship: MANTRA Performance
Post by: Cato on July 08, 2010, 04:00:20 AM
Check out this review of a performance of Mantra:

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-06-30-courageous-presentation-of-a-mammoth-task (http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-06-30-courageous-presentation-of-a-mammoth-task)

An excerpt, and I really have to admire a newspaper which openly publishes such turgid sentences:

Quote
Arnold Schoenberg’s grundgestalt thematicism, the evolution of serialism and twelve tone writing, later total serialistic developments (Boulez and Messiaen), electronic music experimentation and aleatoric philosophy merge into a macro-configuration of sound and musical ideas in Stockhausen’s Mantra.

Formed around a thirteen note mantra – so named so as to avoid terminology with technical associations such as theme, row or subject – the variation compositional principle of this generating simultaneity is at the centre of this work’s construction and organisation.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on July 08, 2010, 04:07:17 AM
Thank goodness the piece is better than that advert appears to promise ; )
Title: Re: Stockhausen: Mantra
Post by: snyprrr on July 09, 2010, 07:50:14 PM
Would anyone like to ejumecate me on Mantra recordings? I used to have the New Albion, but I do believe I need something more subtle, or more integrated, or more organic sounding. If the piece really sounds like it does on the New Albion, I might not make it, but, I think my main objections were to the technical side of things. That Naxos looks interesting. What else do we have?
Title: Re: Stockhausen: Mantra
Post by: petrarch on July 10, 2010, 03:48:59 AM
Would anyone like to ejumecate me on Mantra recordings? I used to have the New Albion, but I do believe I need something more subtle, or more integrated, or more organic sounding. If the piece really sounds like it does on the New Albion, I might not make it, but, I think my main objections were to the technical side of things. That Naxos looks interesting. What else do we have?

I only have and listen to the Stockhausen-Verlag CD16 recording, though a long time ago I had a different one (can't remember which or how it sounded though). The SV release, being the one that has the Kontarsky brothers and close supervision by the composer is probably as faithful as it gets to the original vision.

Here's what's available:

Stockhausen-Verlag CD16 (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/ksce16.html)
(http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/ksce16.gif)

TMD 950601 (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/950601.html)
(http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/950601.gif)

New Albion NA 025 CD (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/na025.html)
(http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/na025.gif)

Wergo WER 6267-2 (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/wer6267.html)
(http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/wer6267.gif)

Accord 202252 (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/202252.html)
(http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/202252.gif) (http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/wittenbach.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on July 10, 2010, 04:55:54 AM
Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I thought he might have written the piece for Yvar, one of the pianists on the New Albion recording. Well, if not Mantra,  he wrote something else for Yvar.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on July 10, 2010, 05:16:12 AM
Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I thought he might have written the piece for Yvar, one of the pianists on the New Albion recording. Well, if not Mantra,  he wrote something else for Yvar.

Checked the score and notes and there is no mention of a dedicatee. The booklet indicates the piece was premiered by the Kontarskys.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 27, 2010, 05:33:36 PM
It struck me, reading James' cool "review" above, that a whole lot of brain time has been spent on 30secs of music. I am disturbed. All of a sudden I picture politicians debating US in like manner!! :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Franco on August 01, 2010, 06:35:33 AM
I had the Alois Kontarsky recordings of Klavierstucke 1-11 and remember them being very important to me in the 1970s. 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on August 01, 2010, 07:08:20 AM
I had the Alois Kontarsky recordings of Klavierstucke 1-11 and remember them being very important to me in the 1970s.

I absolutely love those recordings. Probably my favourite Stockhausen.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Ugh on August 25, 2010, 11:36:10 AM
What was Stockhausen's involvement in Jodorowsky's aborted attempt at filming Dune? (Pink Floyd, Magma, and Henry Cow were supposed to make musical contributions as well)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Guido on September 06, 2010, 04:46:42 AM
Did Stockhausen ever give any indications about what he thought of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms etc? I always think that what he was doing was so different, and his comments about why he made music and what he liked are so far removed from these guys that I wonder if he appreciated them...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 06, 2010, 05:13:30 AM
Did Stockhausen ever give any indications about what he thought of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms etc? I always think that what he was doing was so different, and his comments about why he made music and what he liked are so far removed from these guys that I wonder if he appreciated them...

Yes, he appreciated them. Stockhausen and modern composers in general typically share the "standing in the shoulders of giants" approach, contrary to the all too usual misconception that their music makes them incompatible with music from earlier periods. He even has a CD on his label where he conducts Haydn and Mozart.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on November 06, 2010, 09:03:45 PM
Well, it seems the Stockhausen bug has bit me. :-[ :'( Does that just mean another rabbit hole, haha?

I've been YouTubing his earlier works from the '50s (besides the piano pieces, which have (Sony)). I have a feeling I'm headed for a paradigm shift. It's all quite groovy.

I see the discography is certainly not a crowded field, usually with one 'classic' recording, and one newish one.

I also had feelings for Ylem and Inouri, two funky works from the early '70s. Reminds me of Planet of the Apes!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 02:45:39 AM
Well, it seems the Stockhausen bug has bit me. :-[ :'( Does that just mean another rabbit hole, haha?

I've been YouTubing his earlier works from the '50s (besides the piano pieces, which have (Sony)). I have a feeling I'm headed for a paradigm shift. It's all quite groovy.

Grab Hymnen (version for electronic and concrete music) and listen to it twice in a row like I did when I first got it. Prepare to be awed! :)

http://homepage.mac.com/bernardp/Stockhausen/ksce10.html
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on November 23, 2010, 11:28:35 PM
Over the last few days (and for the rest of the week) I've finally sunken into Sonntag aus Licht (1998-2003) ... which will receive it's world premiere (http://www.stockhausen.org/world_premiere_sontag.pdf) in April-May 2011.

Reports in rec.music.classical.contemporary (a hangout of prominent Stockhausen scholars and fans) suggest that this world premier isn't going to happen after all. The venue has yet to announce a cancellation, but they haven't put tickets on sale, and they admit that contracts haven't even been signed yet.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 05, 2010, 08:16:03 PM
Listening to the 3 Acts from Montag aus Licht (1984-88) ...

(http://www.sonoloco.com/rev/stockhausen/stockhausenpictures/36apics/S36Ar.jpg)

Montag-Gruss

Act I (6 Scenes)
Evas Erstgeburt (Eve's First Birth-Giving)
for 3 sopranos, 3 tenors, bass / actor / choir / 21 actresses /
children's choir / modern orchestra (3 synth players, 1 perc., tape)
-In Hoffnung (Expecting)
-Heinzelmannchen
-Geburts-Arien (Birth-Arias)
-Knabengeshrei (Boy's Hullabaloo)
-Luzifers Zorn (Lucifer's Fury)
-Das Grosse Geweine (The Great Weeping)

Act II (4 Scenes)
Evas Zweitgeburt (Eve's Second Birth-Giving)
for 7 solo boy singers / basset-horn, 3 basset-teases
(2 basset-horns and 1 vocal basset-horn) / piano / choir /
21 actresses / girl's choir / modern orchestra (3 synth players, 1 perc., tape)
-Madchenprozession (Girl's Procession)
-Befruchtung mit Klavierstuck (Conception with Piano Piece)
-Wiedergeburt (Re-birth)
-Evas Lied (Eve's Song)

Act III (3 Scenes)
Evas Zauber (Eve's Magic)
for basset-horn, alto flute with piccolo / choir, children's choir /
modern orchestra (3 synth players, 1 perc., tape)
-Botschaft (Message)
-Der Kinderfanger (The Pied Piper)
-Entfuhrung (Abduction)

Montag-Abschied

REVIEW by Stephen Eddins
Stockhausen's four-and-a-half-hour Montag is part of his massive seven-opera cycle LICHT. It's the third opera of the cycle, and it focuses on the character of Eve. (Donnerstag, the first, had Michael as the central character, and Samstag dealt with Luzifer; the remaining operas examine their relationships.) Although Montag received its 1988 premiere at La Scala (in what, from the photos in the 200-page CD booklet, looks like a fabulous production), this not the traditional opera of bel canto singing and taut dramaturgy; it's a sprawling pageant that unfolds both musically and dramatically entirely within its own idiosyncratic frame of reference. Electronics play a prominent role in the aural landscape, and solo instrumentalists at some points carry the action and the music as prominently as the singers, a group that includes soloists, chorus, and a children's chorus. The convoluted scenario doesn't bear close rational scrutiny, but it provides the framework for a spectacle that's undeniably compelling on a visceral, subconscious or preconscious level for the listener or spectator who's willing to suspend expectations of a traditional narrative. Giving himself such a spacious timeframe in which to unfurl his ideas, Stockhausen rarely moves quickly; the leisurely pace at which the music develops and evolves seems entirely appropriate to the scope of the project. While on a meta-level a sense of stasis frequently prevails, the surface of the music is always active and developing, so the listener who is able to focus on the moment and engage with the opera's grand aura of enigma will always find plenty to engage the ear. Stockhausen has involved some of the brightest lights in contemporary music performance in the project, including pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard and conductor Peter Eötvös. Stockhausen specialists clarinetist and basset hornist Suzanne Stephens and flutist Kathinka Pasveer deserve special recognition for their extended virtuoso contributions. The quality of the entire production is remarkably strong for a piece that makes such extravagant demands on its performers. Because the Stockhausen Edition controls the distribution his music, which is available only from his official website, the recording is awfully expensive, but anyone with a serious interest in the full range of development in late twentieth century opera deserves to get acquainted with the operas of the LICHT cycle, and Montag is one of the most musically engaging places to start.

If you ever wondered where the "heart shape" came from, well, there ya go!


btw- those cd covers are almost just to tempting, arent they? Gotta give it to him. They are so joyous looking, all of them.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on December 06, 2010, 04:56:17 AM
Currently listening to Freitag aus Licht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freitag_aus_Licht) .. some samples posted below for curious folks.

(http://www.stockhausen.org/cd_50.jpg)

FRIDAY TEMPTATION Score Page 1
(mp3 audio 1.3M) (1:06)  (http://www.stockhausen.org/fri_temptationseite1.mp3)
(electronic music)

FRIDAY TEMPTATION Tone Scene 1
(mp3 audio 3.8M) (3:20) (http://www.stockhausen.org/fri_tonescene1.mp3)
(electronic music)

KINDER ORCHESTER / CHILDREN'S ORCHESTRA (S. 13)
(mp3 audio 6.8M) (5:53) (http://www.stockhausen.org/kinderorch.mp3)
((for example 16 instruments) & soprano, flute, basset-horn /
synthesizer player / electronic music / sound projectionist)

 ELUFA Real Scene (S.130/131)
(mp3 audio 8.8M) (7:39) (http://www.stockhausen.org/elufa.mp3)
(for basset-horn, flute / electronic music)

CHOR-SPIRALE / CHOIR SPIRAL Real Scene (S. 130/136)
(mp3 audio 6.5M) (5:40) (http://www.stockhausen.org/choirsprial.mp3)
(for 12 choir singers (3S 3A 6B) / electronic music / sound projectionist)

..

And though I haven't heard the piece there is a
new album released of Harlekin for solo clarinet ...

(http://www.michelemarelli.com/immagini/600x600.jpg)

bit on the performer >> http://www.stockhausen.org/marelli.html

Thanks for posting these links. Hope you can post a few more links to some of the other operas, perhaps Monday or Tuesday.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on December 06, 2010, 02:44:05 PM
Those clips of Friday are from the composer's own site .. i just linked them from here, there aren't any available for Monday or Tuesday on there that I know of.  :(

You can order discs from this British site that accepts CC payments via Pay Pal

http://www.stockhausensociety.org/order-cds.asp

Oh,  wow! Thanks for this info. The process of ordering CDs from the Verlag makes my head spin.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 06, 2010, 04:36:21 PM
Oh,  wow! Thanks for this info. The process of ordering CDs from the Verlag makes my head spin.

I made two substantial orders earlier this year from the Verlag. Had no issues whatsoever and they are very prompt with replies to any questions.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on December 07, 2010, 12:49:37 AM
I made two substantial orders earlier this year from the Verlag. Had no issues whatsoever and they are very prompt with replies to any questions.

Oh, don't get me wrong; the problem is me, not the Verlag. When I read "add cheque handling charges" and "bank transfer" etc, I go into a cold sweat. I'm crap with that kind of banking stuff!  :(
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 07, 2010, 04:03:54 PM
Thankfully that British site is on-point.  :)

But you pay a premium to go through them...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 07, 2010, 04:39:56 PM
?

I didn't pay a premium.

Prices are about 10% higher at the society.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 07, 2010, 06:23:57 PM
bottomline is that it's much more convenient and easier to order discs online, just a few simple clicks and no bs.

Not sure what bs you are referring to.

I totally agree on the ease and convenience of an online order. It costs, though, in this particular case; I'd rather get an extra CD or two by ordering direct than pay the premium, even if it takes ~3 weeks for an order from the Verlag to be delivered in the US. Plus the Verlag always includes bonus goodies with every order.

In any case, the society provides better prices than those I have seen in some brick and mortar stores. I still remember paying too much for CD 8 (Mixtur) at Tower Records in London a decade ago, and I recall they had CD 7 (Momente) at an absurdly high price, something like 3x the price at the Verlag. I placed my first order with the Verlag a couple of months later.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on December 07, 2010, 06:33:48 PM
They really should get their online situation together and allow for online purchasing like every other site! Who wants to go through the extra tedium to order discs.

In the wake of Stockhausen's death, some journalist (Norman Lebrecht?) predicted that the Stockhausen-Verlag would hand over control to some established company, because there's so much money to be made on Stockhausen's music, and the Verlag is doing a poor job of making that music widely available. That never really happened, did it? EMI put out their 2-disc set of archival recordings of fairly minor pieces, Naxos released a performance of Mantra, but there was never the sudden major interest in Stockhausen's music by real labels that I expected.

I'm digging LICHT. If the recordings were released by a major label at the standard price and with the usual ease of ordering, I'd buy a boatload of them. As it is, I'm just getting things from pirate sites until the situation settles.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 07, 2010, 09:23:29 PM
All of the deterring fine print (below) to get the stuff ... perhaps you can tell us how you go about ordering, you fill out the order form and then mail them a cheque, or cash or get a bank transfer... ?

I fill the order form and mail it along with a cheque, after confirming the total and availability of the items with Kathinka over email.

Ordering thru the Stockhausen Society you get all those bonus goodies too (additional catalogues, pamplets etc - if that's what you're referring to?),

I received a couple of articles and some postcards with drawings by Stockhausen. I think I received some additional material along with some of the scores.

and I don't recall paying any premium thru PayPal

The premium is built into the price at the society; it corresponds to their overhead in providing the service, I would guess, since I don't think the Verlag provides discounts on bulk orders or makes any sort of special price for distributors and retailers.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 08, 2010, 06:09:01 AM
Hey petrArch .. they have a shitload of DVDs ... have you ever ordered any?

>> http://www.stockhausen.org/video_kassetten_engl.pdf

Nope, though I have been thinking about it. Another set of DVDs I intend to grab are those put out by the Archivio Luigi Nono.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 08, 2010, 04:54:51 PM
I only know the one that's offered on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Water-Alvise-Vidolin/dp/B000CIWXRI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1291821467&sr=8-3) but there are more Nono DVDs? All this stuff seems so hidden in a way ... I don't think I've ever read a single review on the hordes of Stockhausen DVDs that are available. (not that I've searched but still ... usually come across something)

Like the Verlag, the Archivio is converting all of the video archive to DVD, though they will do it on demand since they did not "productize" those videos. When I was there a few years back, Nuria told me you can just go there and do the copy yourself for free, however many you want. Not sure if that still applies today.

http://www.luiginono.it/it/cataloghi/risultati?catalogue=audiovideo&type-of-work=Video

I have the Trail on the water DVD, and although very interesting I feel it doesn't have "enough" of Nono ;). The same director has made a documentary on Lachenmann (which was excellent) and was about to finish one on Rihm. Still waiting for them to be released...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on December 15, 2010, 04:15:00 PM
Yep, colour me surprised.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 17, 2010, 10:50:26 PM
Currently listening to the 1st hour of the Klang cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klang_(Stockhausen)) & loving it ..
Himmelfahrt (Ascension) (2004-05) for synthesizer, soprano and tenor ...
(some samples posted below for curious folks)

(http://www.stockhausen.org/cover_cd_83.jpg)

HIMMELFAHRT (Ascension) Bar 1 Moment 1 2'19"( 4.3 MB high end .mp3) (http://www.stockhausen.org/ascension_bar_1.mp3)
HIMMELFAHRT (Ascension) Bar 119 Moment 8 1' 00" (1.9 MB high end .mp3) (http://www.stockhausen.org/ascension_bar_119.mp3)
HIMMELFAHRT (Ascension) Bar 414 Moment 24 5'32" (5.1 MB high end .mp3) (http://www.stockhausen.org/ascension_bar_414.mp3)

My first reaction is "demented fairground music". Is that fair? After all, didn't he write the piece to be played whilst walking through the town? He certainly makes a case for the synth as an honest instrument.

btw- those covers are addicting. I could see breaking many banks!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 03:55:02 AM
My first reaction is "demented fairground music". Is that fair?

Calling it that would have never occurred to me but I can see how you got there--that awful, horrendous, synthesizer sound (sorry James) does make it sound like warped fairground music :D.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 24, 2010, 05:02:03 PM
Initially I had the same impression of the synth sounds in Himmelfahrt as Petrarch, now I love them, just as James does. For my first impressions and change of mind, see also:

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/himmelfahrt.htm

Heading:
"The sound – tempo melodies"

In fact, now I love the synth sounds even more than when I wrote that article.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 27, 2010, 02:19:50 AM
Initially I had the same impression of the synth sounds in Himmelfahrt as Petrarch, now I love them, just as James does. For my first impressions and change of mind, see also:

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/himmelfahrt.htm

Heading:
"The sound – tempo melodies"

In fact, now I love the synth sounds even more than when I wrote that article.

It's a totally different approach. I can understand the need for a sound or timbre that puts in evidence what is going on in the music--in this case, mostly pitch organization along time. I'm still not convinced the timbre used was the best or most interesting one: The dynamics are not that varied; the colour is pretty much uniform; there isn't that much 'life' in each note; and note complexes tend to be a jumble. Compare this with e.g. Natürliche Dauern, where the piano responds to the variety of touch with a wide dynamic range; colour goes from soft to hard, from coarse-grained to smooth and from dark to bright; sustained notes reward us with their inner activity; and chords enmesh each constituent note in a contour of harmonics and beats. Maybe Himmelfahrt will grow on me; but it will never be a piece I will admire sonically or timbrally.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 31, 2010, 07:55:48 AM
i LOVE the sound Stockhausen's synth player uses on the disc ... i guess in the future other classical synthesizer players (?) will interpret with an individual 'tone/setting' that may be more to your liking (if premittable); the synthesizer itself gives the piece much character & electrified juice & power & sustain .. that you can't get with acoustic instruments ... there is dynamic contrast in Ascension, from loud to much softer, from lots of activity to stillness etc, but the piece isn't about dynamics & color and doesn't overemphasize those often confusing & frivolous elements; the piece has so much more going on   ... heck, Bach's music had terse dynamics, doesn't hinder the music ... and none of it's contrapuntal textures are 'jumbled' to my ear... you can clearly delineate and hear what's going on with both hands ... especially at home on the stereo, he's panned the left hand to the left speaker and right to right speaker ... the voices seem to enter more dead center in the audio spectrum. It's a remarkable & unique piece of *music* ... one that grows more attractive to me with each listen.

I understand all that; as I said, perhaps it will grow on me, but not on sonic or timbral grounds. The music (sic) could probably have been better served, or provide a more rewarding, fulfilling and complete experience, if he had used analogue sounds, not to mention acoustic instruments. That sort of 'colour' just doesn't work for me. It's just like enjoying the Goldberg Variations but not liking the sound of the harpsichord (which is not my case, note).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Al Moritz on December 31, 2010, 07:59:22 AM
... and none of it's contrapuntal textures are 'jumbled' to my ear... you can clearly delineate and hear what's going on with both hands ... especially at home on the stereo, he's panned the left hand to the left speaker and right to right speaker ... the voices seem to enter more dead center in the audio spectrum. It's a remarkable & unique piece of *music* ... one that grows more attractive to me with each listen.

Indeed. Some thoughts from my article:

Certainly, a searching quality is found in the gestural language of much modern music, including – to a certain extent – in Stockhausen’s own GRUPPEN, which just like HIMMELFAHRT features irregular polyphony with strands in different simultaneous tempi. Yet in the newer work this character of modern gestural language is fused with the more melodic approach. The overall effect is that there are melodic lines that "feel" or probe their way through musical space, to an extent that is quite unusual – especially in music that is not slow, as is the case here.

This is what I believe makes HIMMELFAHRT unique: it features a searching melodic polyphony that in a comparable form I cannot recall having found anywhere else.

Due to the strong fluctuations in rhythm upon each presentation, the musical flow of the extended melodic lines is highly variable and uneven. The unevenness is compounded by the occurrence of different simultaneous tempi and rhythms in the two keyboard parts. Trying to follow in detail this irregular polyphony of independent voices can be challenging. However, I prefer this detailed listening approach in order to enjoy the individual contours of melody in their polyphonic context. Even though I have listened to the music many times, each new exposure to this work has for a long time been an aural "rollercoaster ride" and is still demanding, the limited musical forces employed notwithstanding; the musical complexity is further enhanced by the large-scale processes (see below). For me the listening experience is one of the most taxing, but also one of the most exhilarating ones that Stockhausen’s complex oeuvre offers.

A comparison with Bach’s Art of the Fugue shows how far the music of HIMMELFAHRT is removed from the regular pulse and evenness of musical flow of the polyphony of that early masterpiece. Though both melodic polyphonies are of extraordinary quality, they are worlds apart from each other.

One of my favorite "concerts at home" has become GRUPPEN followed by HIMMELFAHRT. It highlights both similarities and differences in concept, as well as development and continued originality of Stockhausen’s music, and offers a complex listening experience throughout.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on January 03, 2011, 04:57:24 AM
The entire 1972 Momente is now up on YouTube in two parts.

Is John11inch a poster here?

Don't you just love YouTube?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZdtGa7PosM&playnext=1&list=PLA3807BD64620134D&index=2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZdtGa7PosM&playnext=1&list=PLA3807BD64620134D&index=2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6xlF7OmiI8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6xlF7OmiI8&feature=related)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 03, 2011, 06:09:19 AM
Don't you just love YouTube?

I just found that there are a couple of excerpts of Strahlen. Now that is interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di75q48J8FM
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 03, 2011, 08:41:16 AM
I just found that there are a couple of excerpts of Strahlen. Now that is interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di75q48J8FM

Woah, that induced a flashback! ???
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on January 04, 2011, 06:57:37 AM
I just found that there are a couple of excerpts of Strahlen. Now that is interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di75q48J8FM

?!?!?!

Are you suggesting that Strahlen, which sounds like something Karlheinz might have dashed off during a tea break, is a greater work than his masterpiece (IMHO), Momente? Whoa, that there's fightin' talk.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 23, 2011, 06:20:56 PM
ok, well I'm coming to an impasse with KS.

To update: I have

1) KlavS I-XI (SONY); with Mikrophonie I & II

2) Helikopter Quartett

3) Gruppen (DG)

I had just seen that Koch cd with Zyklus, Refrain, & Kontakte (w/Wambach) for cheap, but missed it, and went to listen to those pieces,...and said, ok, I can wait for now.



Two pieces I really liked from YouTube were Inori and Ylem. Of course they're only avail from SVerlag.



I guess my point is is that James is whetting my appetite, but the amazon discography leaves me only wanting Mantra and the new Gruppen(ColLegno). I just don't see myself ordering from the site in the near future.

Maybe the more KS I hear, the more Cagean he seems to me,... sort of like an anti-Cage (like William Shatner and his evil twin, haha!). He's obviously smart,... but then he marries that intellect to,... what boils down to me as some kind of Scientology, or Swedenborg, or Urantia/Luciferian,... you know what I'm talking about,... which, to me, almost takes it into "BOB" country, you know, that maestro of "SLACK"?

Y'know what I'm getting at?


Anyhow, I might just have to spend some more time with the YouTube. I know that there's nothing really too exciting avail on amazon, so, I might as well just check stuff out at my leisure?

The two works which fit my bill were the two from my fav period: 1972-4 (5-6)... Inori and Ylem. And Mantra.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on January 24, 2011, 12:53:05 AM


and the new Gruppen(ColLegno).


I'm having trouble tracking this down. It's not on Amazon UK and each time try to find the Col Legno site (which I've browsed many times in the past), I either get malware warnings or get directed to some generic site. What's going on? Can somebody post a link to the new Gruppen? Ta.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 24, 2011, 05:15:11 AM
I'm having trouble tracking this down. It's not on Amazon UK and each time try to find the Col Legno site (which I've browsed many times in the past), I either get malware warnings or get directed to some generic site. What's going on? Can somebody post a link to the new Gruppen? Ta.

I don't see any info on Gruppen on the Col Legno site. I do see that they have two new Wolfgang Mitterer releases... Yum!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 24, 2011, 07:36:04 PM
snyprrr ..

On amazon.com try to pick up a copy of the excellent ECM album ...



Luzifers Tanz (1983)
http://www.youtube.com/v/DOmq3mOJod8

Oktophonie (1990/91)
http://www.youtube.com/v/qcvTUNWYtW8

Cosmic Pulses (2007)
http://www.youtube.com/v/19D4TYkR4pU

maybe I'll try that Albion one



So, what's up with that first clip? Is there a scandalous riot going on? I can't quite make it all out, but I assume the pic is from that? the whistling

The Cosmic Pulses I can accept as something Xenakis might have done (maybe given a few more years),... though, interesting X got so rigid rhythmically in the end, and KS has quite a spritely quality in his old age. Interesting compare.

I will go back and take a look at those Mantra replies earlier. That Naxos sounds pretty good, IMO.



There is definitely a 'noodling' aspect to some of his later music, I think I hear. Strange,... sounds like improv, but doesn't?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on February 03, 2011, 02:53:34 PM
Just posting this here, so Stockhausen-philes can make plans now. The NY Philharmonic will do this concert below as the finale of its 2011-2012 season, in the vast space of the Park Avenue Armory. Alan Gilbert assembled the program to focus on pieces that can be presented spatially in the hall.

New York Philharmonic
Alan Gilbert, conductor
Magnus Lindberg, conductor (Stockhausen)
Matthias Pintscher, conductor (Stockhausen)
Park Avenue Armory
June 29-30, 2012

Boulez: Rituel in memoriam Bruno Maderna
Mozart: Act I Finale from Don Giovanni
Stockhausen: Gruppen
Ives: The Unanswered Question

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on February 03, 2011, 03:17:33 PM
Just posting this here, so Stockhausen-philes can make plans now. The NY Philharmonic will do this concert below as the finale of its 2011-2012 season, in the vast space of the Park Avenue Armory. Alan Gilbert assembled the program to focus on pieces that can be presented spatially in the hall.

New York Philharmonic
Alan Gilbert, conductor
Magnus Lindberg, conductor (Stockhausen)
Matthias Pintscher, conductor (Stockhausen)
Park Avenue Armory
June 29-30, 2012


Boulez: Rituel in memoriam Bruno Maderna
Mozart: Act I Finale from Don Giovanni
Stockhausen: Gruppen
Ives: The Unanswered Question

--Bruce

I've just got home from a difficult day and haven't got the time or energy to anything other than WOW!!!!!

Edit: So difficult, I lost the ability to cue and paste. And to say ditch the Mozart. (Oops, naughty.)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on February 03, 2011, 03:54:30 PM
Well, come on down!  ;D 

(PS, I have no idea how they will do the seating, but here's the interior of the Armory--just a tad bigger than Avery Fisher Hall.  ;D)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on February 14, 2011, 12:08:07 PM
For any Stockhausen fans in the New York area, on March 2 at Merkin Concert Hall, flutist Patricia Spencer (of the Da Capo Chamber Players) will give the U.S. premiere of Bijou (1993), for flute and bass clarinet, with sound projection by Sam Pluta, and direction by Sherry Teitelbaum. More info here (http://www.k-c-p.com/pspencer/).

--Bruce

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Sylph on February 14, 2011, 02:14:25 PM
Could anybody tell me where can I find some information about his Fünf Sternzeichen and Fünf weitere Sternzeichen? A description or something like that? Orchestral versions.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on February 14, 2011, 05:03:41 PM
Could anybody tell me where can I find some information about his Fünf Sternzeichen and Fünf weitere Sternzeichen? A description or something like that? Orchestral versions.

Have you seen this? http://www.stockhausen.org/five_star_signs_about.html

Other than that, the original work is Tierkreis which is amply documented.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on February 22, 2011, 05:33:39 PM
Been thinkin' about these piano solos lately,  time to listen again ..

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/59/72/f13d024128a06e2c8cf8a010.L.jpg)

01 Klavierstück XII (Examen) (from the opera "Donnerstag")
02 Klavierstück XIII (Luzifers Traum) (from the opera "Samstag")
03 Klavierstück XIV (Geburtstags-Formel) (from the opera "Montag")

Bernhard Wambach piano

Yes, I'm interested to hear your review. Also, check out the review on Amazon.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 19, 2011, 08:13:50 PM
Insight: NY Philharmonic to perform
Stockhausen’s Gruppen… in 2012

BY JAKE COHEN ON FEBRUARY 17TH, 2011 IN COS

(http://consequenceofsound.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/081013_r17825_p465-260x260.jpg)
The confines of cushy Avery Fisher Hall at Lincoln Center can’t accommodate this setup, so the Philharmonic will go further downtown (both literally and figuratively) to perform Gruppen inside the monstrous Park Avenue Armory at E25th Street.

Not to be pedantic, but the monstrous Park Avenue Armory is at E64th Street, so the Phil is moving literally crosstown rather than downtown. But is there any official announcement of this event that anyone can point to? It is NOT listed in the 2011-12 NY Phil brochure I received a few days ago. And if this is really happening, when will tickets be on sale?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on April 20, 2011, 07:06:57 AM
If Alan Gilbert is trying to impress me he is succeeding!
In fact Gilbert is impressing me even if that is not what he is trying to do.

Humane idea to include Boulez's Rituel (though not my favorite piece by Boulez, Gilbert needs to know that  :P) - and Great idea to include The Unanswered Question

2012 is a long time to wait, though...  ???

Gilbert is a superb programmer. But the really radical kicker to this concert is in adding the Act I finale from Mozart's Don Giovanni to the mix. All four pieces will use musicians deployed spatially in the hall.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on April 27, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
Many thanks to James for taking the time to provide these links!

We will see whether the LICHT operas indeed become the Ring of our era!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2011, 12:33:21 PM
Where is our Mel Blanc?

http://www.youtube.com/v/KJXBZbi2RJc
Title: Re: Pierre Boulez and a Flute Babe?
Post by: Cato on April 27, 2011, 01:32:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/JotSiYl2dzs

Speaking of Violin Babes, check out the Flute Babe at 4:50!  Credits say her name is Chloe L'Abbe of Quebec.

Plus, somebody wants to know if Pierre Boulez was in the audience (on the left) at 5:20.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2011, 01:35:00 PM
"Chloé L'abbé" … obviously a stage name. Born Myrna Kornblatt.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Scarpia on April 27, 2011, 01:38:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/JotSiYl2dzs

Is this supposed to be "disturbing" or "challenging" or just idiotic?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on April 27, 2011, 02:27:29 PM
Not a problem .. what of the cycle have you heard? Just curious.

I received a tape many moons ago, when Stockhausen was not quite halfway finished.  It contained excerpts from Donnerstag Aus Licht (e,g, Examen, Michaels Jugend) and have heard excerpts of Montag, Mittwoch, Samstag, and now Sonntag.

Which reminds me: nearly 4 years ago, when I started this topic (!!!???!!!) I offered a translation of a negative review from May 2, 1988 by the Music Editor of Der Spiegel of Montag Aus Licht.

Allow me to offer it again now:

For the Original German see:  http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13527558.html (http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13527558.html)

"With Hitler and a Bow-Wow into Cloud-Cuckoo-Land
Spiegel Editor Klaus Umbach on Karlheinz Stockhausen’s new opera Montag aus Licht

Like a lord, with curly hair down to his shoulders, he sits enthroned in the glow of spotlights 5 meters above the earthly stage.  His bright shirt is colorfully knitted, his trousers blossom white.  You cannot help but look at him: Karlheinz Stockhausen, 59, a figure of En-Light-enment for the contemporary electronic music scene.

With big eyes full of transfigured delight, this composer on the podium of the Cologne Philharmonic, a man who spiritually is able “to leave my body and observe it as if it were an automobile,” pursues a kind of neocreation of creativity: his work.  And he saw, that it was good.

Among “21 musical performers,”, small ensembles of singers, children’s choirs, traditional and electronic sound generators, among the cries of babies, goats bleating, and the beat of a cuckoo clock, 3 women named after the primeval mother Eve shriek through a squadron of giant loudspeakers “Huvva Luhudens” and “Akka Aditi”, at which point a choir, after a hymn to God as an “immeasurable Intelligence” monosyllabically chants a response: “Michi Michikiki niminimi.”

Then a “Birthday Aria” (“Parrot aye Parakeet Bow Wow!”) is to be understood, according to a published exegesis by Stockhausen himself, that Heaven has bestowed Life to 7 “Animal boys” and to 7 Dwarfs: “Luci-cat, Wee-wee-grimace, Penis-treasure, Birdie-boobs, Johnny Top, Manny-Tickle-Deer, and Little Brat.”

In grateful joy: 3 sailors gargle – according to the score – the sounds “a---öäua aö oöa oa ua” and then “ruketu Urt Werdani,” spitting out the water in high arches.

Up until then it had been a really colorful evening!

But then Hell bursts out in Stockhausen’s Eden.  Luci-Polyp steps out in the forms of 2 Beelzebubs and rattles down the alphabet “from A-fa and Be-fa to Upsilon-fa and Zee-fa.” Then an alarm clock goes off, and Adolf Hitler snores an historic O-tone, so that “we shoot back to 5:45 A.M.,” a crowd of men shout “Hail!” and a toilet flushes from an 8-track tape directed by 40 channels of sound.  Aha!  Creation is excrement, the miscarriage must go through the toilet back to a mother’s lap.

On to something new: a flock of lovely maidens prophesies “sea Samudra Ice,” apparently the code of an exotic genetic technology.  Because immediately a pair of rough chords occur on Eva’s Steinway (“Fertilization with Piano Piece”), the birth proceeds (“frai dai dai vae”) crazily fast, and already they are in the world of Karlheinz Stockhausen: “seven boys of the days,” “healthier and more beautiful human beings,” monstrosities of a composing visionary, who long ago lifted off into the cloud-cuckoo-land of his own crazy-quilted private philosophy.

So (“sonono nononono no”) this is the way things have been screaming with birth-pangs since 1977, and it will continue in installments until the next century, if the powers of inspiration remain whole for the creator.  Then it shall completely enlighten mankind: Stockhausen’s LIGHT, the most monumental and monomaniacal undertaking in Western Musical History, a cycle of operas structured and named after the days of the week, 5 times greater than all of Beethoven’ symphonies together, and at more than 30 hours a Colossus of Time, compared to which Wagner’s Ring tetralogy is a “a cute little chamber opera” (the newspaper Kölnische Rundschau).

At the beginning of April Stockhausen oversaw at the control panel the concert premiere of his latest piece Montag aus Licht.  On Saturday of this week Michael Bogdanov, Hamburg’s designated theater director, is arranging a premiere at La Scala of Donnerstag aus Licht via his previous London staging.

For over 4 hours this syllabic and sibylline  “Play of Light” winds around out of the incense from Poona and Oberammergau, from the Bible, legends, the vocabulary of children’s books, and the coffee grounds of Erich von Däniken (Note: a pseudo-scientist who claimed he had evidence of extra-terrestrial landings in ancient times), leading to the heights of the Bergisch Land and Kürten 5067 (Note: Stockhausen’s town and zip code), where Stockhausen has his center, a man who claims “not to be necessarily identical to Stockhausen the composer.”

Here at the address of Kettenberg 15, a green hill of electronic music astrology, he could listen in on “the 12 melodies of the zodiac”  as well as perceiving the vibrations of Sirius, the “central sun of our area of the Universe,” over 8.7 light-years away, “the highest form of oscillations,” under whose influence he went from new-sound revolutionary to a new-age softie, and from a philharmonic terror of the middle-class to the supernova of a messianically turned community.

Whether as a pioneer at the podium or the music mixer or as Heaven’s loudspeaker, he always stood at the center.  His work Kreuzspiel caused a scandal in 1952 at the Darmstadt New Music Festival.  His Gesang der Jünglinge almost became a classic.  He created by his won estimation the first works of purely electronic music in 19534 at the WDR studios.  The Beatles even honored him with his portrait on the album cover of Sergeant Pepper.  The Distinguished Service Cross Winner of the Republic of Germany once represented the brotherhood of the musical avant-garde in Bonn’s Villa Hammerschmidt and in Lebanon for a German cultural exposition.  During Expo 1970 in Osaka 21 soloists offered his new German sounds in a round auditorium for 5 1/2 hours per day over 183 days, and more than a million fair visitors listened enchanted to this new kind of permanent wave from Germany.

In Amsterdam, as late as 1985, according to a Stuttgart newspaper, “Stockhausen would draw more people than Karajan.”  And last year the composer’s son and trumpeter Markus even promoted his father in East Germany.

But the more frequently Stockhausen has directed ear into the Universe from his high throne his artistic sense to ideas on salvation, the more persistently he has destroyed his regular position as Germany’s #1 composer, which he quite rightly deserved as a revolutionary of the new and as a grandiose craftsman.

To be sure, even in the 3-act Montag aus Licht there are still some trace elements of his sonic inspiration in evidence, especially in the exquisite mixture of voices, synthesizers, and noises, even in the songs without words, which the bassett-horn player Suzanne Stephens and flautist Kathinka Pasveer perform with virtuoso elegance.

But unpleasantly there is nothing else of interest in this score, and it even becomes unsettling to realize: when it gets loud, it sounds like Orff, and when it gets soft, it moans like Cats, and if it keeps going like this, if Sonntag aus Licht is to be expected in the year 2002 as developing this trend, we can expect the world to beam in C major!

This whole musical-theatrical spectacle becomes embarrassing first through its “text-action-stew” (quote from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung) with which “total artwork creator” (Gesamtkunstwerker) Stockhausen waters down his musical message, and it makes no difference, as composer and critic Dietmar Polaczek wonders, whether “lower Rhine peasant Buddhism” or “tantric-lamaistic monastic Catholicism” is befogging Stockhausen’s sensibilities.

In any case, his community of believers can be seized by the metaphysical smoke from Kürten, and even the Hamburg newspaper Die Zeit ("The Times") gives the prayer wheel a spin: this work LICHT, said the newspaper in all seriousness about the unfinished work, might be a new type of evangelization, a type of Apocalypse of Karlheinz, and between Hitler, Bow-Wow, and a parakeet (“who attempts to whistle the Marseillaise” according to the score) arises “the art of composing as a new sacrament of the new human in a new, transformed Universe.”

There, in this new ivory-tower full of thoroughly senseless “Times-liness”, the Guru from Bergisch Land* “would like to be allowed to make music with planets and moons and roaring groups of planets and suns and moons.”

Really, it’s almost tragic: while Karlheinz Stockhausen, the searcher for God, treks down the Milky Way of the Cosmos with his retinue, the composer of the same name has been going down backward on the wrong road for a long time."


* Bergisch Land is the area where Stockhausen lived in (roughly) west central Germany.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on April 28, 2011, 01:59:19 AM
Could be worse. "With Hitler and a Bow-Wow into Cloud-Cuckoo-Land" & "and when it gets soft, it moans like Cats" could have been meant as praise.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on April 28, 2011, 03:38:09 AM
Quote from: Spiegel Editor Klaus Umbach
. . . Among “21 musical performers,”, small ensembles of singers, children’s choirs, traditional and electronic sound generators, among the cries of babies, goats bleating, and the beat of a cuckoo clock, 3 women named after the primeval mother Eve shriek through a squadron of giant loudspeakers “Huvva Luhudens” and “Akka Aditi”, at which point a choir, after a hymn to God as an “immeasurable Intelligence” monosyllabically chants a response: “Michi Michikiki niminimi.”

Perhaps not the core of the practice, but bleating-goat is certainly well represented in traditional operatic practice; so I'm not sure what his complaint is, there . . . .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on April 28, 2011, 02:01:29 PM
The author of that is merely listing the variety of electronic samples that occur very briefly within the works texture via loudspeakers. So has there ever been the actual sound of bleating goat in a opera and over loudspeakers? Hmmm maybe Stockhausen is making a joke about that traditional operatic practice; i did kinda chuckle when I first heard it.

Bleating goats reminded me...

Many decades ago, before most of you whippersnappers were born, I would crank up Wagner's Ring cycle, or Schoenberg's Gurrelieder or Erwartung, or perhaps a Rimsky-Korsakov opera, and inevitably, whenever Brünhilde or Tove or Fevroniya were twirbling away, my mother would be within earshot and demand:

"Somebody put that poor woman out of her misery!"   :o

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on May 01, 2011, 01:25:38 AM
Very interesting interview - he is much more down to earth (despite the Sirius nationality) than his critics make out.

Thanks, James for posting it.

I was lucky enough to hear Stockhausen speak several times before concerts in London. He was engaging, lucid, entertaining and utterly sensible.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on May 01, 2011, 04:09:08 AM
Very interesting interview - he is much more down to earth (despite the Sirius nationality) than his critics make out.

Thanks, James for posting it.

"Can you tell us what the most beautiful sound, or the most interesting sound, that you've ever heard, is?"
"No."

To be sure, a more down-to-earth response is not possible.   ;D

Quote from MDL:

Quote
He was engaging, lucid, entertaining and utterly sensible.

I am reminded of the following incident: once I was having a conversation with a lady psychologist, who was dating a medical doctor I knew.  Things were going fine: she was engaging, lucid and entirely sensible...until... she pointed to the glowing logs in the fireplace and said:

"Last night it was so wonderful: the fire attracts The Green Fairies, you know."
I: "Oh really?"
She: "Yes, one of them fluttered right in front of my face for a while."
I: "And why exactly does fire attract The Green Fairies?"
She: (incredulous) "For the warmth, of course."
I: "I would think that their magic would keep them warm."
She: (Spurning) "The Green Fairies are not magical.  They're natural."

She later complained to the doctor that my skepticism produced vibrations that kept The Green Fairies from appearing that night.  Yes, he still dates her, despite her acquaintance with The Fairy World, apparently because she has certain talents a la Amsterdam and/or Shanghai.

No, she was not testing me for an experiment in how people react to unusual claims.   :o

People with delusions can be quite functional...even psychologists.






Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on May 01, 2011, 04:18:27 AM
. . . She later complained to the doctor that my skepticism produced vibrations that kept The Green Fairies from appearing that night.

Ah-hah! Robin Williams suggests as much to Jeff Bridges in a scene of The Fisher King! So your psychologist is onto something! ; )
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: karlhenning on May 01, 2011, 04:51:38 AM
People with delusions can be quite functional...even psychologists.

In principle, of course, there's no absolute reason a delusional person should not be a psychologist. Or a composer ; )
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on May 01, 2011, 06:06:44 AM

Quote from MDL:

I am reminded of the following incident: once I was having a conversation with a lady psychologist, who was dating a medical doctor I knew.  Things were going fine: she was engaging, lucid and entirely sensible...until... she pointed to the glowing logs in the fireplace and said:

"Last night it was so wonderful: the fire attracts The Green Fairies, you know."
I: "Oh really?"
She: "Yes, one of them fluttered right in front of my face for a while."
I: "And why exactly does fire attract The Green Fairies?"
She: (incredulous) "For the warmth, of course."
I: "I would think that their magic would keep them warm."
She: (Spurning) "The Green Fairies are not magical.  They're natural."

She later complained to the doctor that my skepticism produced vibrations that kept The Green Fairies from appearing that night.  Yes, he still dates her, despite her acquaintance with The Fairy World, apparently because she has certain talents a la Amsterdam and/or Shanghai.

No, she was not testing me for an experiment in how people react to unusual claims.   :o

People with delusions can be quite functional...even psychologists.

Well, yes, I suppose you have a point.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 01, 2011, 07:01:23 AM
"Can you tell us what the most beautiful sound, or the most interesting sound, that you've ever heard, is?"
"No."

To be sure, a more down-to-earth response is not possible.   ;D

Quote from MDL:

I am reminded of the following incident: once I was having a conversation with a lady psychologist, who was dating a medical doctor I knew.  Things were going fine: she was engaging, lucid and entirely sensible...until... she pointed to the glowing logs in the fireplace and said:

"Last night it was so wonderful: the fire attracts The Green Fairies, you know."
I: "Oh really?"
She: "Yes, one of them fluttered right in front of my face for a while."
I: "And why exactly does fire attract The Green Fairies?"
She: (incredulous) "For the warmth, of course."
I: "I would think that their magic would keep them warm."
She: (Spurning) "The Green Fairies are not magical.  They're natural."

She later complained to the doctor that my skepticism produced vibrations that kept The Green Fairies from appearing that night.  Yes, he still dates her, despite her acquaintance with The Fairy World, apparently because she has certain talents a la Amsterdam and/or Shanghai.

No, she was not testing me for an experiment in how people react to unusual claims.   :o

People with delusions can be quite functional...even psychologists.

Aye aye!!! now that's change i can believe in!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 08, 2011, 07:05:21 AM
It is interesting, but I have the opposite reaction re Boulez's Sonates I-III and Stockhausen's Klavierstucke I-IV, despite the fact that I love the latter.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 26, 2011, 05:25:57 PM
In fact, Pollini is every bit as compelling as Lang Lang, just because he disappears inside the music he’s playing so completely. He’s fascinating in an impersonal way, like a shaman who summons up spirits. That feeling was especially strong in the two Stockhausen piano pieces (Nos 7 & 9) that launched his recital.

Those are my two favorite Stockhausen piano pieces. Well, I would add No 11 to the list too. They are like a study in piano timbre.

No 9 is notorious for beginning with the same chord repeated 142 times in a gradual dying away.

It's actually 140 times. And then the chord repeats 87 times more on the next bar, in another ff -> pppp diminuendo. Bar lengths follow almost closely the numbers in a Fibonacci sequence, although out of order.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on June 04, 2011, 02:00:43 PM
Many thanks to James for the information on what must be an expensive collection of Stockhausen works!

Are you buying these from his (former) headquarters in Kürten? 

What is your opinion of the Veni Creator Spiritus from Klang?  Would it be something which might interest the 12-13 year old mind?  (I am thinking of my Latin students.)   $:)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 05, 2011, 05:12:20 AM
1. Momente for solo soprano, 4 choirs and 13 instrumentalists

(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco2/Rec/Stockhausen/07IR.jpg)  (http://www.stockhausen.org/cover_cd_80.jpg)

Momente is a large-scale vocal work, scored for soprano soloist, four choirs, and 13 instrumentalists. The piece addresses the theme of love through a stream of consciousness-like text, exploring extremes of human emotion through the expressive extremes of the vocal parts. Detachment and passion are felt in equal measure throughout the work, whose narrative -- really a succession of discrete events or episodes -- holds together only in the moment-to-moment "free association" of the text, and the episodes do not betray an obvious temporal sequence or overarching structure. The significance of context, the meaningfulness of each isolated moment rather than an overall direction or plan, explains the origin of the work's title.

In each episode or moment, the soprano soloist is supported by organists and percussionists, while brass duos -- trumpet and trombone -- support each choir. The choir members themselves also play percussion instruments, including rattles and metal and cardboard tube drums. Musical material is organized according to complex relationships graphed by Stockhausen to resemble a kind of family tree, wherein specific musical structures are linked together through moments of indeterminacy. A given musical structure is identified by its particular character, namely whether it represents a timbral, melodic, or rhythmic moment. Timbral moments tend to be homophonic, melodic moments monophonic, and rhythmic moments polyphonic. These three elements may blend together, but one of the three will dominate and define each musical structure or event. Musical moments are thus organized according to how they sound, according to their purely sonic, musical character. This represents an important development in musical composition in the 1960s, a break from serial procedures that had dominated serious music since the years following the Second World War.

Momente, a significant work in Stockhausen's oeuvre, has been criticized for its unintelligibility, for its complex structure and the near impossibility of perceiving this structure. Indeed, when the work was performed in Stockhausen's own Cologne, the composer was forced to halt the performance due to audience noise. The performance was eventually completed, however and the vociferous objections to the work by the audience are ironically an important part of the work: Momente is as much a musical-dramatic work as it is a staged confrontation between Stockhausen and his critics. Stockhausen's choirs in Momente even offer their own response to unsympathetic audiences, as the choirs themselves frequently interrupt the performance through their percussion parts, but also by yelling, hissing, and clapping.

Upcoming Performances
Thursday, Nov. 10th  Lissabon, Calouste Gulbenkian Foundation's Grande Auditório  (Information: http://www.gulbenkian.pt )
Friday, Nov. 11th  Lissabon, Calouste Gulbenkian Foundation's Grande Auditório  (Information: http://www.gulbenkian.pt )


I've read about the new ordering of moments in the 1998 version, and I have my doubts about placing the long introductory moment, which so obviously stands apart from the rest of the work and forms a perfect opening, placed after the interval, with the applause moment now opening the work as was the case in the earliest version. How does it compare to the 1972 version? How does the use of sythesizers affect the sound world of the work compared to the original Hammond organs?

Momente is my favourite Stockhausen work, so I might have to invest in the latest version, despite my misgivings.

Thanks, by the way, for the updates. They're fascinating. Do you do anything else with your spare time?  ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 05, 2011, 06:05:45 AM
I've read about the new ordering of moments in the 1998 version, and I have my doubts about placing the long introductory moment, which so obviously stands apart from the rest of the work and forms a perfect opening, placed after the interval, with the applause moment now opening the work as was the case in the earliest version. How does it compare to the 1972 version? How does the use of sythesizers affect the sound world of the work compared to the original Hammond organs?

I have written about this a while back:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3533.msg424231.html#msg424231

In my opinion, the 1998 version is worthwhile.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 05, 2011, 06:20:36 AM
I have written about this a while back:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3533.msg424231.html#msg424231

In my opinion, the 1998 version is worthwhile.

Ooh, thanks for reminding me. I read this at the time. I was paying attention, honest! Yes, I think I need to get my grubby mitts on this set. Ta!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 09, 2011, 08:25:11 AM
Perhaps on a single disc order, and the pound exchange is higher than the euro ...but the more you order the bigger discount you get on subsequent discs (yea sure that's just a way to make you spend more but) ... bottomline is that it's much more convenient and easier to order discs online, just a few simple clicks and no bs. And orders arrive lightening fast too. Stockhausen's site is in the dark ages .. they really have to get their shit together.

Anyway ..received in the mail today & am listening now to the new recording of Mantra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra_(Stockhausen)), sounds wonderful ..

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51I8DSR9A5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Surely I will have ordered that Naxos cd by the time anyone tells me not to, soooo...

How long ago was it I asked that question? Anyhow, it's cheap,... everything else is... not! I was going to get the Wergo Gruppen/Punkte, but frankly, I compared the YouTube Gruppen (which I believe is the Wergo) to the Abbado cd, and I thought the DG recording 'sounded' great. The YT/Wergo had separation of the orchestras (and the receding image that that entails), but I could hear everything nice and upfront with the DG (though I'm sure that's NOT the point of the piece,... I still like it). I'll stick with Abbado for now (anyhow, I can always hear the other on YT).

But I'm still on board with Mantra. YT has the Kontarskys, and true, that recording, from the first note, is very alive and vivid. Since I have settled on the Naxos (which, from the samples, sounds just fine (and, apparently, it carries the James Seal of Approval!!)), I'm hoping I won't return here to dire warnings, for surely it will be too late!

How much would it cost to get Inouri?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on June 10, 2011, 05:09:57 AM
That new recording is a cheap alternative. It would not be my first choice. The Stockhausen-Verlag (Kontarsky bros) edition is superior. The composers favorite is the Sepp Grotenhuis, Ellen Corver, Jan Panis (supervised by KS) which I haven't heard yet. Sure you would pay more but I'd consider either of those over the Naxos to get the piece in the best light.

And the Eotvos modern recording of Gruppen/Punkte on BMC Records (not Wergo) is superior to the DG Abbado recording.
I think it's unfortunate that it was Mantra that Naxos chose to record, as I've never found it one of Stockhausen's more compelling works.

Thanks for the reminder on the Eotvos Gruppen. The most easily available Gruppen being the Abbado version is also unfortunate, since the original DG recording is infinitely more powerful, compelling and (as far as I can tell) accurate. Eotvos should satisfy my desire for a recording in modern sound, plus I've never heard the '90s revision of Punkte.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 10, 2011, 06:27:28 AM
I think it's unfortunate that it was Mantra that Naxos chose to record, as I've never found it one of Stockhausen's more compelling works.

Thanks for the reminder on the Eotvos Gruppen. The most easily available Gruppen being the Abbado version is also unfortunate, since the original DG recording is infinitely more powerful, compelling and (as far as I can tell) accurate. Eotvos should satisfy my desire for a recording in modern sound, plus I've never heard the '90s revision of Punkte.

Mantra isn't my favourite Stockhausen piece, but I'm pleased Naxos released it. And I don't think we'll be seeing a Naxos Momente or Carré any time soon (or whatever Stockhausen piece you prefer).

No recording or live performance I've heard of Gruppen comes anywhere near to having the clarity and sense of purpose of the original DG recording. However, the Eötvös is vastly preferable the Abbado.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 10, 2011, 06:46:41 AM
That new recording is a cheap alternative. It would not be my first choice. The Stockhausen-Verlag (Kontarsky bros) edition is superior. The composers favorite is the Sepp Grotenhuis, Ellen Corver, Jan Panis (supervised by KS) which I haven't heard yet. Sure you would pay more but I'd consider either of those over the Naxos to get the piece in the best light.

And the Eotvos modern recording of Gruppen/Punkte on BMC Records (not Wergo) is superior to the DG Abbado recording.

Well, Naxos it was,... where is that Grotenhuis available?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 12, 2011, 12:41:35 PM
Soooooooooooooomebody on EBAY is offering a bunch of Verlag stuff this week,... but none of the ones I would have gone for. :'(
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 14, 2011, 01:37:53 PM
Currently listening to the Naxos edition .. 2nd time through ..

1. Mantra for 2 pianists (with wood blocks & antique cymbals) and electronics


Mantra (1970), a seminal work in many respects. Stockhausen's return to a largely 'composed' music after a period in which improvisation and intuition had dominated his thinking, the piece has also (especially in recent years) been credited with re-establishing the primacy of melody in modern music. Although the 13-note sequence, from which all aspects of the work derive, has the feel of an autonomous 'theme', its function as a melodic formula is very different from self-sufficient melody in the way that listeners grounded in the standard classics would appreciate. Mantra not therefore being a 'tuneful' piece does not, of course, lessen its qualities as a composition or an experience.

Indeed, it is the very consistency – as methodical as it is inevitable - of this work's evolution that makes hearing it such a pleasure. Working from the principal of its 13 notes giving rise to 13 temporal cycles, Mantra unfolds with an audible logic which is enhanced by the two-piano medium; though the fact that it is described as being for two pianists, who also play woodblocks and antique cymbals as well as transforming their sound via effective use of ring-modulation, helps shift the emphasis from its medium to its presentation in a way which dominated Stockhausen's thinking over the next decade. Here it is the prevailing calm, such as sets the periodic musical eruptions in strategic relief, that constitutes the work's raison d'être – allied to the occasional intrusion of more theatrical or, rather, gestural elements that offer glimpses into another, not unhumorous dimension.

Sympathetic well matched duo on the Naxos – evincing a synchronicity that enables them to access the music's depths as well as its more animated asides. As sound projectionist, Jan Panis ensures the high level of clarity is never at the expense of the music's sonorous texture or beauty of tone. Mantra remains a testament to Stockhausen's creativity and the musicality of his thinking.

Waiting for the proper time of day to listen to this disc. I read the notes, and, I suppose, is this the first instance of Fractal Music? Here it was explained so much clearer than I have actually 'heard' in any music. Perhaps I will be able to hear this Fractal Formula Thing now? We'll see.

This is the first recording with Digital 'Apparatus'.

Anything this duo does interesting?,... any particular tracks?,...

...anyhow...

Cue:
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 14, 2011, 05:48:26 PM
I'm on TRK10, which reiterates the notes, very comically (the notes say there is humor, I'm taking that this is one of those times), over and over, sometimes displaced, sometimes not. I especially enjoyed TRK7, where the Ring Modulator makes the vibrato sounds, slowly pulsating under the chords. Wow, now TRK16 comes in with some heavy Ring Mod effects,... neat, nicely integrated. Here in TRK17 I'm hearing what sounds like jazz chords?

I haven't heard the NewAlbion /Yvar version for years, but the whole presentation, sonically, here, is very much more integrated than what I remember the former being. And it's very nice to have 26 Tracks to study with.

No .. that's not how you listen. You don't listen for a 'fractal formula thing' or whatever the fuck that is. Just listen to it and stop with the dorky Qs already. Sheesh.

Woah now, I'm just readin from the notes. :D

Here's the Formula:

1. A  regular repetition
2. B  accent at the end
3. G#  'normal'
4.E  upbeat-group around a central tone
5.F  'tremolo'
6.D  chord (stressed)
7.G  accent at the beginning
8.Eb  'chromatic' link
9.Db  staccato
10.C  seed for irregular repetition 'Morse code'
11.Bb  seed for trills
12.Gb  sfz (fp) - attack 
13.A  arpeggio link


When I played this on guitar (before I listened to the piece), it revealed a pretty cool row,... I could see who 'useful', and actually musical, it was. Of course, once I put the cd on, I couldn't figure out what was going on, but there is a 'sense' of structure throughout,... the notes describe what's going on, and the function of the Ring Modulator.

Being as this was KS's first notated piece for a while, and the circumstances of it coming to be, and the whole 'hitting on the formula thing',... I find all these 'extra' things interesting ALSO, along WITH the music. This piece can certainly stand a little scrutiny.

I like this recording a lot, but I recall from YT the Kontarksy version's electronics were 'dirtier' and cooler sounding, and the playing was more extrovert. This is a very 'nice' performance and recording, and I mean that in the best possible way. Perhaps I'd like to hear even more wacky wildness from the electronics, but this recording's mellow nuance is its own reward I think.

TRK17, I continue listening...


Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2011, 08:37:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/nEFwlmJRrms

I'm sorry, but those chicks are HOT!! ;)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 19, 2011, 05:53:18 AM
Yes, and the intimate musical dialog is quite 'lesbian'. Stockhausen the visionary. ;D

Yea, I meant to say, What they're DOING is hot!! :o :P :-* ;D


btw- been listening to that Naxos disc a lot. I just like the Refrigerated Laboratory Atmosphere,... 1971,... you can smell the... I don't know what it is, but you can smell it...

Rusty,... is that you?...

I'm starting to 'hear' the formula aspect more,... the sections,... btw, if the formula repeats 13 times, and there are 26 tracks, how are the 13 repeats distributed? Two tracks per repeat? Still haven't got that far into it.

But, I'm starting to just like the 'jamming' quality of this piece (being as it was his first notated piece after his intuitive phase). The ornamentations seem to have a nice, fit-under-the-hand sound, almost jazzy. Yes, I'm hearing some jazzy elements.

Also, I do think some of the humor comes off very well. I'm assuming that these places are where the notes get hung up and repeat endlessly in that mad-scientist-gone-amuck, trying to get-it-right sound. Like, Here...Here...hereherehere...here here...


here


here here

Yea, Mantra has made it into High Rotation. It's just groovy.




btw- whoever sold all that Verlag on Ebay made quite a killing.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 19, 2011, 07:08:26 AM
I'm starting to 'hear' the formula aspect more,... the sections,... btw, if the formula repeats 13 times, and there are 26 tracks, how are the 13 repeats distributed? Two tracks per repeat? Still haven't got that far into it.

The formula is made of 13 notes, the last one being the same as the first one. It is repeated 12 times, not 13, though the piece ends with a compressed recap of the whole work. Each section has one of the notes of the mantra as the central note, around which superimpositions and transpositions of the mantra arise. The ring modulators are tuned to the central note in each section, which makes the first and last notes of the section sound natural and consonant.

The cover of CD 16 from the Verlag shows the mantra and its mirror image.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 20, 2011, 04:59:02 AM
Ausmultiplikation

ah yes, I knew him well! ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 20, 2011, 05:14:58 PM
Music Review
Hamelin brings waves of notes to Rockport
By Matthew Guerrieri
Globe Correspondent / June 20, 2011


(http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2011/06/19/1308531037_4112/539w.jpg)
Marc-Andre Hamelin performing Friday at Shailin Liu Performance Center in Rockport. (Michael J. Lutch)
 
Karlheinz Stockhausen’s “Klavierstück IX’’ was a rhapsody in sustain and decay. The music channels effects borrowed from electronic music — the 140 repeated chords of its opening bar reverberating like an Echoplex — but the core is the piano’s resonance, the sound left hanging once a key has been struck. Stockhausen keeps that cloud of reflections buoyed with ingenious, far-out compositional engineering; Hamelin realized it with skillful, exceptional beauty.

Now THAT I'd like to hear!!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 25, 2011, 08:40:18 AM
Along with a couple of Shostakovich SQs in today's listening rotation for me, is this single brief Stockhausen piano piece ..

1. Klavierstück I

I absolutely love that piece (with Kontarsky, not the Henck nor the Tudor, though I have yet to listen to the Corver). It is all serial, tone row after tone row and composed with group structures, where the articulation, intensity, duration, register and interval direction of the notes provide guideposts indicating how the groups are organized. Contrary to typical serial music, this organization is readily and easily heard, as the groups correspond to clear-cut gestures. The piece as a whole is itself a large-scale group related to the other large-scale groups that are pieces II, III and IV.

It is also a bitch to play. I never got those groups of 7:8 and 11:12 tuplets (which are in turn nested in a 5:4 tuplet) in bar 6 right. The rest of the work is quite manageable in comparison, although there are some nasty bars later on (bar 13 I think and some other one).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on June 29, 2011, 04:34:36 AM
Many thanks for the article!

Music should be an intuitive expression of Mathematics.  I become skeptical when it is ascendant in the composer's mind, i.e. if the composer sets out to follow a precise mathematical program, I do wonder about the outcome.  It would seem better if the composer - once the work is finished and the composer hears and reviews it - discovers the subconscious mathematical clockworks in the opus.  Of course the "rules of composition" (no matter the method) are a type of Mathematics.

And even if the mathematical considerations do in fact dominate the composer, the work is not necessarily ipso facto doomed to be "arid." 

Even "free atonality" can be found to have an underlying unity, forced upon it perhaps simply by using 12 notes which will always give rise to certain mathematical possibilities as they combine.

An analogy in Literature: a writer, who cold-bloodedly wants characters to behave in a certain way to symbolize certain things or ideas, will end up with stick-figures in a mediocre story. 

The writer who lets the characters have free will and follows their personalities, rather than consciously forcing them to do certain things, will have greater success.  To be sure, certain kinds of people will predictably behave in certain ways, just like the 12 notes mentioned above.  But at times the characters will do what they want, like C# will want to rise to D at one point, and will want to descend to B at another, when one might expect something else.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on July 05, 2011, 06:05:12 AM
There is no stretching at all, it is complete focused musical composition by a composer right down to the last detail, just in a different medium at a time when it was all very new territory .. no chance, no randomness, no cryptic texts, no issues of authorship, no bullshit etc. Just a composer in a studio using his musical ear & compositional tools and putting a musical composition together.

Stockhausen had been composing for that "new" medium for more than a decade when he tackled Hymnen.

The process of composition included  cataloguing found sounds, pre-recorded sounds, processes and transformations. The painstaking process was one of assemblage, not one where he merely realised the tape according to a thorough precompositional plan "right down to the last detail", like what he had done for Elektronische Studien I & II or Gesang der Jünglinge.

With regards to randomness, there is use of it in works such as Zyklus and even Momente; he was fond of such things as "statistical" events and of sometimes giving a general direction rather than minute details. This aspect of randomness was expressed in scores notated schematically, leaving precise details to the players. The score for soloists in Hymnen is one such score. Furthermore, Hymnen is variable on a larger scale: "Hymnen for radio, television, opera, ballet, record, concert hall, church, outdoors . . . The work is so composed that various scripts or libretti for films, operas and ballets may be prepared for it. The ordering of the characteristic parts and the total duration are variable. Depending on the dramatic requirements, regions may be lengthened, added or left out."

This exploration and careful selection of base materials is no different than, for example, what went into Cage's Music of Changes; in fact, Stockhausen greatly admired this work, with the serial-like construction of and progression through the charts. The work is as precisely notated as you can get, painstakingly assembled from the individual events notated in the charts.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: some guy on July 05, 2011, 09:19:51 AM
Stockhausen had been composing for that "new" medium for more than a decade when he tackled Hymnen.
Indeed. Fourteen years.


scores notated schematically, leaving precise details to the players.
This reminds me of someone else. I can't quite put my finger on it....

This exploration and careful selection of base materials is no different than, for example, what went into Cage's Music of Changes; in fact, Stockhausen greatly admired this work, with the serial-like construction of and progression through the charts. The work is as precisely notated as you can get, painstakingly assembled from the individual events notated in the charts.
Oh, right. That's who. ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on July 05, 2011, 04:13:24 PM
On the surface it may appear that way but it has nothing to do with Cage's simplistic & arbitrary way with music at all. Can't stand Music of Changes .. it's nowhere near Stockhausen's 'deeper' musicality & complexity.

As I said in the other thread, that is an aesthetic judgment--you can't stand it, other people do (including Stockhausen).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 10, 2011, 08:45:14 AM

COUPLES
1. soprano | bass (not modulated)
2. soprano + cat | bass + dog
3. soprano + photocopy machine | bass + typewriter
4. soprano + racing car | bass + racing car driver (hoarse, vocoder-modulated with internal saw-tooth oscillation)
5. soprano + pin-ball machine | bass + pin-ball machine player (vocoder modulated with pin-ball machine)
6. soprano + soccer ball (whizzing) | bass + kicking leg (banging)
7. soprano + owl | bass + rocket
8. soprano + sighing woman | bass + drug syringe (puncturing noise) with swarm of bees
9. soprano + electric pencil sharpener | bass + pencil (sharpening noise)
10. soprano + woman's mouth (slurping) | bass + ice cream cone (licked) with drops & bee
11. soprano + violin | bass + violin bow
12. soprano + bird's nest (dry, pressed) | bass + raven (jackdaw)

Well,... thaaat's interesting :o :P ;D :-*
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 10, 2011, 11:12:28 AM
Time to reconsider?

I haven't liked Stockhausen much in the past, despite giving him a number of serious tries.

However, I'm willing to reconsider. To that end, I ordered the Eötvös recording of Gruppen and Punkte, and it will be waiting for me when I arrive in Chicago in a few days.

Years ago, I had the Abbado recording of Gruppen, but it really didn't stick to me. I've read in a number of places that it's generally considered to be not very good, and fails to bring out the spatial aspect of the piece sufficiently. So, here's hoping Eötvös will come through for me.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 10, 2011, 11:40:02 AM
Time to reconsider?

I haven't liked Stockhausen much in the past, despite giving him a number of serious tries.

However, I'm willing to reconsider. To that end, I ordered the Eötvös recording of Gruppen and Punkte, and it will be waiting for me when I arrive in Chicago in a few days.

Years ago, I had the Abbado recording of Gruppen, but it really didn't stick to me. I've read in a number of places that it's generally considered to be not very good, and fails to bring out the spatial aspect of the piece sufficiently. So, here's hoping Eötvös will come through for me.

The Eötvös is better than the Abbado, but not as good as the composer-led DG recording. I'd highly recommend hearing Momente which has been posted in its entirety, in two parts, on YouTube. Stockhausen's greatest achievement, IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZdtGa7PosM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZdtGa7PosM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6xlF7OmiI8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6xlF7OmiI8&feature=related)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 10, 2011, 07:56:20 PM
I kno right .. i'd like to have a guitar effect system that can house infinite samples that I record myself which I can mix together as a patch and play as not only as notes, melodic lines and chords in real time, but if possible contrapuntally/polyphonically. lol

That reminds me of the 'bmm, bmm' Voice setting on the Casio, haha. It's always fun to play a Barbershop Fugue, haha.


Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 10, 2011, 11:44:12 PM
MDL .. his greatest achievement? really?


Absolutely, totally and utterly 100% really! Nothing I've heard by Stockhausen surpasses it in terms of range, variety and inspiration. I'd stick my neck out say it's probably the greatest achievement in post-1945 music. So there!

Having said that, unlike you, I've only heard three of the Licht operas, so this is very much IMHO. I still rate Momente above those three, mind.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 11, 2011, 02:52:20 AM
It's a highlight in his canon .. and it's incredibly inventive, but I wouldn't say it even approaches his 29hr. magnum opus Licht in terms of range & variety. Licht consolidates, builds-upon and uses up everything he invented prior and then some ..

Until I actually hear the other four Licht operas, I'll have to say that you win this argument on points!  ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on July 13, 2011, 04:08:37 AM
VISUAL ELEMENTS

(...)

"The bongo player is seated on a stool - his profile to the audience - at some distance from the saxophone play and watches him. The saxophonist plays towards him, at a slight diagonal to the audience...Saxophone as a solo piece could be played - in the context of a programme with other compositions - at a completely unexpected place in the audience. In that case, the player should only appear through the fading in of a follower spotlight aimed at him. At the end, he disappears when the light is very slowly faded out."

This careful attention to detail stems from a pragmatic spirit (rather than a micromanaging one). When one thinks about the level of thoughtfulness and care for detail that go into a performance, one realizes that performers must make countless decisions. Thus Stockhausen's attention to detail is a sensitivity to a performer's undertaking in presenting a piece to an audience. He understands that even a performer's costume, worn for a particular piece, should be carefully planned in advance and be suitable for the music to be performed. Stockhausen's forethought to note in his scores his choices on the aspects of production, free performers to put their energy into interpreting the music.

Completely arbitrary and unmusical nonsense! ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on July 13, 2011, 04:51:30 AM
On some other forums I was on, news of Stockhausen's death was greeted with posts like "Finally, now we can have performances of his music without the sci-fi costumes and ridiculous gestures." Even some enormous fans of "Sirius" or the LICHT music cringe at the composer's extramusical demands.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 13, 2011, 06:46:11 AM
Completely arbitrary and unmusical nonsense! ;)

If the music's already good, what's the beef? What Composer wouldn't like to gaurantee a little consistency of vision? I certainly would forbid the kinds of fashions in that Winter Music video in the other Thread. No flower prints, or denim!!

Only hot babes can play MY music!! :P
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 13, 2011, 07:09:48 AM
If the music's already good, what's the beef? What Composer wouldn't like to gaurantee a little consistency of vision? I certainly would forbid the kinds of fashions in that Winter Music video in the other Thread. No flower prints, or denim!!

Only hot babes can play MY music!! :P

And here to present Maestro snyprrr's Opus 1:

(http://weddingnerves.info/organ.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 14, 2011, 09:50:02 AM
And here to present Maestro snyprrr's Opus 1:

(http://weddingnerves.info/organ.jpg)

 :oI'm being stalked!! :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 14, 2011, 11:03:41 PM
THE EARLY YEARS (1950-1977)


NO-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!! I'm not having that!  :o

THE EARLY YEARS (1950-55)

Uncharacteristic stuff like Choral and Drei Lieder and a few early stabs at forging a mature language, eg Kreuzspiel.


STOCKHAUSEN'S CREATIVE PEAK (1955-1974)

From Gesang der Jünglinge to Inori.

THE BIT WHERE STOCKHAUSEN GOT BOGGED DOWN IN FORMULAS, THE TIERKEIS MELODIES AND BIZARRE PERSONAL MYTHOLOGY (1974-2004)

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on July 17, 2011, 06:09:52 AM
When half of the new posts around here are just James' regurgitations from Wikipedia etc., it's hard to be enthusiastic about the GMG Classical Music Forum. Has this forum passed its peak? Anyone with suggestions for other forums are welcome to send me a private message.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: DavidW on July 17, 2011, 07:40:03 AM
Perhaps it has, you can leave now. None of your posts are ever interesting or informative as I recall. And btw, I type everything out (doesn't take long) and it's for me to sort everything out here .. if others find it interesting that's fine, if they don't, that's fine too.

Except that Cato is the thread starter, and nobody really owns a thread including you.  If the posts are only for you, just save them on your hard drive.  The purpose of a forum is to discuss topics with like minded people.  You have an opportunity to discuss Stockhausen with other fans of his music, but you piss it away with your article posts.

Just think on this James: why are you here?  What do you want to get from this forum?  From where I'm standing I see someone that alternates between article posts and petty fighting... I see someone starving for real conversation.

Those are my two cents take it or leave, but please don't insult me simply because you don't like what I say.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on July 28, 2011, 04:30:38 AM
Trans, usw 1973

http://www.youtube.com/v/WxKTjAWQH9s
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 28, 2011, 10:38:04 AM
Trans, usw 1973

http://www.youtube.com/v/WxKTjAWQH9s

Seriously, now I have to go buy a new bong!















Juuuus kidding ;) ;D,... however, I WILL wait until 3am to watch this!! 8) That is so cool!!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 28, 2011, 10:39:52 AM
btw James, I for one appreciate all the Posts! ;) Can't say I've watched everything/read everything,... but I would. ;) :-*
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 28, 2011, 01:16:23 PM
btw James, I for one appreciate all the Posts! ;) Can't say I've watched everything/read everything,... but I would. ;) :-*

Well said, that man. James, your contribution to the Stockhausen thread has been epic and I really appreciate all your hard work. Your exploration of the Licht cycle is especially useful to people like me who remain ignorant of most of the operas.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 28, 2011, 01:24:01 PM
Trans, usw 1973

http://www.youtube.com/v/WxKTjAWQH9s

Life's a bit frantic at the moment and I've only been able to dip into this, but WOW! Bloody amazing piece of film. I'm clearing the decks for an uninterrupted viewing on Saturday, and as I don't speak German, I'll probably have a list of queries to bother you with.

First question, though: what is the opening orchestral work? For a few seconds, I thought it was a chaotic rehearsal of Trans, but obviously it isn't.  Is it Hymnen Region 3 with Orchestra

(Sorry if it becomes obvious later in the film; as I said, I've not been able to watch the whole clip.)

Thanks again for posting.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on July 28, 2011, 04:05:57 PM
and as I don't speak German

English transcription here: http://www.ubu.com/film/texts/Stockhausen_TRANS-Info.pdf
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 28, 2011, 11:03:01 PM
English transcription here: http://www.ubu.com/film/texts/Stockhausen_TRANS-Info.pdf

Brilliant. You are Santa Claus.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on July 29, 2011, 08:10:39 AM
There's a guy called "NewMusicXX" on YouTube who regularly uploads many fascinating pieces (I subscribe to his feed so I know when he's posted something) and yesterday he put up the complete electronic version of Kontakte, here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/-vjofqA2SNY

--Bruce

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 29, 2011, 02:55:00 PM
There's a guy called "NewMusicXX" on YouTube who regularly uploads many fascinating pieces (I subscribe to his feed so I know when he's posted something) and yesterday he put up the complete electronic version of Kontakte, here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/-vjofqA2SNY

--Bruce

Excellent. I've got Kontakte on DG vinyl and love it. I've yet to hear a recording of Kontakte with piano and percussion that doesn't annoy me; the extraordinary textures and imagination of the electronic music are diluted and confused by the live instrumentalists IMHO.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 29, 2011, 03:19:21 PM
I prefer the version w/ piano & percussion myself .. just adds more to it. The recording of it on Stockhausen's label is good stuff.

(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco2/Rec/Stockhausen/06IR.jpg)

I haven't heard that one; on the one recording I actually own, the electronic music is a fuzzy, distant background to the instrumentalists.
(http://www.medienkunstnetz.de/assets/img/data/3725/bild.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on July 29, 2011, 04:07:25 PM
I prefer the version w/ piano & percussion myself .. just adds more to it. The recording of it on Stockhausen's label is good stuff.

(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco2/Rec/Stockhausen/06IR.jpg)

Same here. The tape-only version sounds disconnected in parts, which is a bit disconcerting. The instruments just give it a continuity and play with textures that the solo tape can't achieve.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on July 29, 2011, 04:12:04 PM
I haven't heard that one; on the one recording I actually own, the electronic music is a fuzzy, distant background to the instrumentalists.

(http://www.legalsounds.com/legalsounds/attachments/5/a/5/131407-170x170_fl.jpg)

I also have that one :). Having been exposed to Kontakte through it almost 20 years ago is probably the reason why I prefer the tape + instrumentalists version.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 30, 2011, 04:57:55 AM
I'm listening to the 'pure' version myself right now at a high volume over loudspeakers .. love it .. considering what he had to work with back then it's just mindblowing how he got this result and how contemporary it sounds. But then again he never just 'played' with the technology .. he plumbed the depths of it to it's absolute limits.



As someone (Griffiths?) once pointed out, the very fact that each sound had be built up laboriously from scratch explains to some extent why Kontakte's sound world is so rich and microscopically detailed. Stockhausen couldn't just press a button, go parpbleephonk and think, "Hmm, yeah, that'll do."
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 30, 2011, 07:03:46 AM
Gesang des Junglinge is interesting for a couple of minutes but even 13 minutes of it is too long. Kontakte is a compendium of outdated sounds from the fifties, composed from outdated technology.


Gesang, too long?! There isn't one single second in the entire piece that is boring or redundant.

And for much of its duration, Kontakte contains some of the finest, most inventive electronic music I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on July 30, 2011, 08:31:32 AM
Absolutely ,, just finished listening to Gesang .. everythings really starts there, synthesized sounds ..  music that moves structurally around the public .. , and the use of the boys voice was a stroke of genius .. gives the work a spiritual dimension/meaning .. using it and composing those choirs of an extraordinary polyphonic character, recorded with tape loops .. these unheard-of melodies and intervals that are still today, unique. And it's all unified/made up into one scale in perfect harmony so what could have been a disaster in the hands of a lesser composer, is actually a work that is alive, vivid and magical. It opened a new door, quite an achievement for a young man in his 20s.

I've heard Gesang "live" (as it were) several times, and being surrounded and engulfed by the swirling vocals and clattering electronic sounds is a pretty magical experience. Any doubts about the antiquated electronics are swept away by the power, beauty and inventiveness of Stockhausen's imagination. In both the quality of its music and the sheer technical skill Stockhausen displayed by creating music on such primitive, cobbled-together kit, Gesang is a staggering achievement.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on August 05, 2011, 07:07:49 AM
As a matter of fact Stravinsky was jerked off of neo-classicism by Webern, to whom he was introduced by Robert Craft and nowhere - I mean nowhere - has Carter ever indicated Stockhausen was an influence in his move to atonality. Besides, Stockhausen's main role at the time when Carter was evolving away from neo-classicism was his role in the development of Integral Serialism (ie, the synthesis of Webern and of Messiaen's Modes de Valeur et d'Intensite) and Carter never got into twelve-one composition of any sort.

Not to mention that Stockhausen's influence on electronica is greatly exaggerated (http://www.stockhausen.org/ksadvice.html). Key IDM artists didn't hear Stockhausen's music until after they had established their style, and their reaction to it was generally negative.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on August 06, 2011, 07:43:55 PM
your claim does not jive with what I've learned from books about and by Carter.  In looking back through the book that compiles most of Carter's writings, which comprise quite a bit over several decades, there is nothing about Stockhausen

Same here--Carter acknowledges the influence of Ives, Stravinsky, Schoenberg and Varèse; he also acknowledges his indebtedness to Nadia Boulanger as a teacher.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on August 06, 2011, 10:21:01 PM
haha, More Helikopter!, haha,...

where can I get the t-shirt? ;) ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on August 07, 2011, 06:49:21 AM
Who is Maconie and what is his program?  If it is Stuart Maconie, then I will take the information with a grain of salt, but still interested in where he got it.

Robin Maconie, a NZ musicologist famed for his detailed coverage of Stockhausen in his The Works of Stockhausen from the early 1970s--a book I heartily recommend, more recently republished as Other planets and revised to include updates through Licht.

I think James has read too much into Maconie's words in the summary for the radio broadcast. There is a fleeting reference to Gruppen in the literature when Maconie establishes the parallel between Stockhausen and Carter as two composers that were interested in simultaneous use of different tempi in music. However, Carter's use of it predates Stockhausen's, as evidenced by his String Quartet of 1951 and an article about rhythm from 1955. If anything, the influence would have been the other way around.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on August 07, 2011, 04:21:22 PM
It is mad and even faintly mendacious to suggest otherwise - just as it is mad to claim Stockhausen as an influence on Stravinsky and Carter, against all evidence.

Even though the influence on Carter is a stretch, the influence on (late) Stravinsky isn't--it is quite well documented.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 12, 2011, 11:01:12 AM

I ordered the Eötvös recording of Gruppen and Punkte, and it will be waiting for me when I arrive in Chicago in a few days.

I've now listened to Gruppen a few times, in this Eötvös performance. It's a lot clearer than what I remember from the Abbado, and I'm certainly enjoying it more this time around.

So far a success. I'll go on to Punkte later.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on August 12, 2011, 11:33:02 AM
I've now listened to Gruppen a few times, in this Eötvös performance. It's a lot clearer than what I remember from the Abbado, and I'm certainly enjoying it more this time around.

So far a success. I'll go on to Punkte later.

The recorded balances in Abbado's DG recording are strange and the detail doesn't come through too clearly  Eötvös is much better. But try to get your hands on the DG/Verlag composer-conducted recording. It really is special, and it come coupled with Carre, which is astounding.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on August 13, 2011, 07:28:37 AM
Yes, it is true Eotvos is sharper than Abbado but Abbado's tone is so refined it makes Gruppen sound like a classic - on a par with Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert et alii.

Everyone's saying how 'off' Abbado is, but, hey,... you're right, if one didn't know better, how is one to tell how 'bad' he is? It sounds just fine to me. I did compare with the Eotvos, on YouTube, and, aside from the computer speakers' limitations, I thought the Abbado came off alright,... yea, and the sound is DG quality.

anyway...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on August 24, 2011, 05:53:48 PM
Live Review: Taka Kigawa at (Le) Poisson Rouge, NYC (8/22)
By Jake Cohen on August 23rd, 2011 in Concert Reviews

He opened his program with Stockhausen’s Klavierstück X, a work filled with constant tone clusters and glissandi, featuring perhaps more virtuosic modernist fireworks than the Boulez. Kigawa took an entirely novel and whimsical approach to playing this work, donning fingerless fleece gloves to aid in the glissandi and clusters. ]

Would they not therefore be called "Mittens" ?   $:)

Or does the writer mean that the "fingerless fleece gloves" were actually covers for only the palms of the hands?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on August 24, 2011, 08:05:23 PM
Would they not therefore be called "Mittens" ?   $:)

Or does the writer mean that the "fingerless fleece gloves" were actually covers for only the palms of the hands?

 :D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on August 25, 2011, 01:53:11 PM
You have never heard of fingerless fleece gloves?!?! ..

(http://raggedmountain.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image//f/i/fingerless.jpg)

Now we know!   ;D

Many thanks!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on August 27, 2011, 03:33:43 PM
How will the next Post go?, how will it go? ???
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on August 28, 2011, 12:37:07 PM
Inori is a piece I've never really cared for or warmed up to .. it is Stockhausen at his most conservative, but not to a memorable effect! And it's too long and with not much variety or excitement imo, it would have been so much better if it was shorter (like about 20-25 minutes) ... I'd take take any of his major electronic compositions over it in a heartbeat. And he never focused all his energy on electronic music .. as anyone who is truly familiar with the full scope of his tremendous creative output would know.

Inori is a peculiar piece. When I first heard it 30 years ago or so, I was shocked at how tuneful and old-fashioned parts of it seemed; at the time, I remember wondering if Stockhausen had been channelling Tchaikovsky or Mantovani. But over the years, I've warmed to it. Its distinctive, tightly focused sound world, bright, glittering and always utterly transparent, is vividly realised. The opening half-hour can be a drawn-out ordeal if you're not in the mood for it, but if you're in the right frame of mind, its obsessiveness can be hypnotic. I heard a live performance in the Barbican in London in 2009 when I was going through a bad time, and I left the hall feeling oddly uplifted and comforted.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on August 28, 2011, 01:54:57 PM
Another piece that is punctuated by silences is Inori - though the parts with notes are longer than the silences.  Like much Contemporary music it is organized around s single note (Dutilleux's "notes-pivot") - so much so much so as to fit the naive, uneducated definition of tonality. I suppose the first four parts are meant as a slow preparation for and build-up toward the more climactic parts. Thus, it is not till near the end of the fourt part (16, Harmonie/Harmony, Echo) that some action & drama occurs. Indeed there Stockhausen displays a talent for Harmony and orchestration (i.e. the flute & wind parts), that he may have not developed as much as one might have wished, presumably because he focused most of his energy on electronics. The musical substance of the piece is rather conservative (see for instance the beginning of part 17): perhaps would it pair nicely in concert with people like Boris Blacher or Hans Pfitzner: perhaps Thielemann should check into this theory. Be it as it may, the haunting harmonies - and those haunting flutes in the background) can work like a drug on some people - but a drug whose effect might be shortened by the gimmicks - like the percussions, which are added from the outside to the music and rather simple-minded (a child could perform, them, it seems), rather than integrated into it.

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/DecauxStockhausen005.jpg)

I thought it was a very long piece. How can it be only one cd?

btw- this is the piece that sounds like 'ritual' music, no? written for/after Japanese?...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: gomro on August 28, 2011, 05:25:11 PM
I thought it was a very long piece. How can it be only one cd?

btw- this is the piece that sounds like 'ritual' music, no? written for/after Japanese?...

I'm going to say that you're thinking of Die Jahreslauf, which was inspired by Japanese Gagaku. It's only one disc, though.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 02, 2011, 07:46:02 AM
Kreuzspiel [Cross-play] (1951)
for oboe, bass clarinet, piano (woodblock), percussion (3 players with 6 tom-toms, 2 tumbas or congas, 4 suspended cymbals)
Original title: Mosaik
Duration: 11'30".

(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco2/Rec/Stockhausen/edition1IR.jpg)


In a letter dated 1 November 1952, Stockhausen outlines a proposal for a new composition for piano and three pairs of timpani: "Two entities emerge from beyond the physically describable and perceivable, into a region bounded by space and time. They are diametrically opposed." This quote grapples with the notion of explaining the birth of an idea as arising from a conjunction or annihilation of opposites, like a burst of energy created by the collision of an electron and positron, particle and anti-particle. It is also a modern formulation of a dynamic view of creation, a belief according to which the natural world is not stable in the sense of being static or inert, but dynamically stable in the sense of competing forces held in a balanced equilibrium.

This image of creative tension, of the Idea born out of a juxtaposition of antitheses, is interpreted literally in Kreuzspiel, an exercise in musical precision engineering, designed to come to life in a magical scene reminiscent of the awakening of Maria, the female automaton in Fritz Lang's movie Metropolis. Stockhausen describes this music as an example of dramatic form, in the classical sense of a developmental process governed by the arrow of time: a movement of pitches from the extremes to the center of the keyboard, where the brittle, "static" sounds of the piano come alive in the expressive, breathing tones of oboe and clarinet.

Kreuzspiel began life as a sketch for a song for high soprano voice and piano, and was subsequently revised for high female voice, male voice, and piano, before Stockhausen finally settled on the present instrumentation, originally for four percussionists, later edited down to three. Inherent in the oboe and clarinet parts is the notion of wordless vocalise. The original song was to have been based on the sound elements or phonemes that make up the name "Doris," an idea that already seems to prefigure the condensation of language out of a cloud of vowels and consonants that drives Gesang der Jünglinge. That would explain Stockhausen's original choice of percussion, tambourines and snare drums, musical equivalents of the consonants [d], [rrr], [ss] (in "Doris") and [k] and [tz] (in "Karlheinz"). After changing his mind and deciding not to include voices, Stockhausen altered his choice of percussion to sounds of "more resonance" in imitation of the natural percussiveness of the piano--the audible thump, or for the higher notes more of a click, of the hammer hitting the strings, carefully matched and imitated at various pitch levels by accompanying tom-toms and congas. All the same, they still function perfectly well in the role of attack consonants to the vowels of the solo woodwinds, the tumbas imitating [d], drum rolls [rrr] and cymbal strokes [k] and [ts].

Karel Goeyvaerts has introduced Stockhausen to register form, and also to "interversion:" Messiaen's method of varying a series by turning it inside out. The Belgian composer objected to voices in principle, on account of their "imprecision." For the same reason he would also have disapproved of approximately-pitched percussion. Stockhausen was following an alternative agenda, interpreting their imprecision as necessary "human" and "fallible" antitheses to the austere and uncompromising pitch- and time-values of the keyboard. In addition to providing a parallel complementary sound-world, the percussions serve also as an image of chronometric time, like the whirring clockwork drive of a musical box or pianola. In time-honored musical tradition, percussions also emphasize physical action, while the woodwind melodies convey emotion.

Kreuzspiel falls into three sections with introductions, link passages, and coda. In 4/8 time, MM 90, part I is preceded by a 13-measure introduction articulated by tumbas in triplets (twelve pulses per measure). In his commentary, Stockhausen remarks "each time notes and noises occur at the same point in time--which happens fairly frequently--the note in some way or other drops out of the series, alters in intensity, transposes into a different octave-register or takes a different duration from the one preordained." During the opening measures, tumbas beat out an identificatory duration series in sixteenth notes: 2-8-7-4-11-1-12-3-9-6-5-10, followed by the scale 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12, a touch reminiscent of the Asian practice of identifying the mode at the beginning of a performance. At this point the tempo changes to MM 136 and the piano part to two widely-separated lines teetering toward each other as if on stepping-stones. Each statement of the series occupies a fundamental duration unit of thirteen quarter-note beats, or 6 1/2 measures. In part III this unit changes to a duration of thirteen eighth-notes. At 28, after two statements of the duration series on tumbas, the woodwind instruments appear, and after three further rotations a woodblock signal by the pianist triggers another serial accelerando, to the mid-point of measure 52 (13 x 4). From this point the form is retrograded and inverted, so that by 91 the piano parts have retreated to the extremes of the keyboard, but with the original pitches transposed, the six highest at the beginning now lowest, and vice versa.

Part II follows without a break, introduced by a new statement of the duration series, played this time by suspended cymbals. Unlike I and III, where interest is created mainly by distributive interaction, in II the emphasis is on consolidation and coordination: here the woodwinds take a more active, leading role, an opportunity to make the two melody lines "speak" in a kind of wistful dialogue that nevertheless remains true to the dynamics of the score. The movement of notated dynamics between f and pp is a little misleading for a music intended to be performed more in the intimate style of close-microphone song. Achieving the same level of intimacy on piano can be done through a trade-off between dynamic levels and microphone positioning. In the detailed positioning of percussion around the piano, like violins around a harpsichord in a baroque orchestra, the composer makes it very clear that they are to be heard as "interior resonances" of the keyboard.

A change to compound time and return to MM 136 marks the transition to part III, announced again by an identifying statement of the duration series. This time the accents describe a crescendo, to be matched by a corresponding diminuendo at the end: yet again the music displaying the scales on which it is composed. For a pointillistic work, the suggestion of dynamic continuity in a crescendo or diminuendo is also consistent with the development of a sense of melodic continuity through the emergence of the woodwind voices. This final section combines elements of I and II, a procedure suggesting limitless possibilities of extension.

(from Robin Maconie, Other planets)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 02, 2011, 07:04:01 PM
Formel [Formula] (1951)
Movement for orchestra (3 oboes, 3 clarinets in a, 3 bassoons, 3 horns; 6 violins, 3 cellos, 3 double basses; vibraphone (glockenspiel), celesta, piano, harp
Original title: Studie für Orchester
Duration: 13'

(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco2/Rec/Stockhausen/IR02.jpg)

Originally intended as one movement of a projected three-movement work (the other two comprising Spiel für Orchester), Formel belongs to the same family group of compositions as Kreuzspiel, Spiel, Schlagquartett, Punkte 1952 (the original version), and Kontra-Punkte. In all of these works an initial gestalt, or pattern of notes describing fundamental interval and time relationships, is transmuted by degrees into something else. The evolutionary process characteristically depicted in these early instrumental works can be compared to a game of chess, in that an initial symmetrical, static arrangement of elements is systematically rearranged, move by move, until a self-governing dynamic situation is created, leading to the eventual dominance of one element or element combination. Two types of displacement are found: a note may be dislodged vertically from its octave register, or it may be pushed aside from its original position in the time frame. In Formel, complete melody or harmony units (the latter understood as "vertical melodies" are manipulated in the same way as individual "points" in other pieces.

Formel describes a chevron-shaped unfolding from the center to the extremes of pitch, first broadening outward to fill the pitch space, then systematically withdrawing from the center (middle c, to be exact) to the outer extremes. The time-structure is based on an additive series. The expansion procedure is itself an "interversion" (or turning inside-out) of Kreuzspiel, in which the musical tendency as we recall is from the extremes to the center.

The musical aim of this quirky but interesting piece is to reconcile the x and y coordinates of musical space-time in a manner perhaps suggested by the analysis of the Webern Concerto Op. 24, a field in which melody expresses the horizontal and harmony the vertical orientation of the series. Two reciprocal processes unfold simultaneously. They are defined instrumentally by bright metallic sonorities (vibraphone alternating with celesta and glockenspiel in the high register, representing white light), and the darker textures of the remaining instruments (6 + 6 high and low winds, 6 + 6 high and low strings, high piano, and low harp) representing tone colors, or simply colors. Out of a starting point in the center, a melody for the crystalline tones of the vibraphone (shared with glockenspiel and piano) opens up by graduated stages, moving from a middle c occupying a duration of 12 sixteenth-notes, to two notes oscillating within two durations of 11 sixteenth-notes, then three notes in three units of ten, and so on, ending with a statement of a full twelve-note melody adding up to twelve units, each one sixteenth-note in duration. Simultaneously, vertical collections of notes converge, starting from a single chord of 12 notes, followed by two of eleven notes, to three of ten notes, to culminate in a succession of twelve single notes, the same as a melody. A cumulative process or stretching of a single note into a melody in the horizontal dimension, is matched to a compression or flattening of a vertical twelve-note harmony into a one-dimensional melody. A visual impression of the two processes on the page is of an accented counterpoint of layered tempi, all reducible to a common pulsation: 11 in 2, 10 in 3, …, crossing at 7 in 6, 6 in 7, and so on (the nominal duration values are altered from time to time, to avoid too mechanical an effect). It is as though the composer had tried to create a serial idiom that would "swing" spontaneously in the manner of big band jazz, and then, finding it didn't work quite as intended, set the piece aside. When the score was finally published in 1971, the precisely notated tempo-structure had been overlaid with a thick layer of expression marks: "moderate"-"slow down"-"not too fast"-"broaden out"-"much faster!"-"very slow", etc.

Despite a feeling of awkwardness, this is an intriguing piece, not only because it is Stockhausen's first "formula" composition before Mantra, but also because the relation of rigid structural durations and more fluid internal figurations makes it a significant precursor of Gruppen, and eventually the formula structures of Licht.

(from Robin Maconie, Other planets)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 03, 2011, 02:06:41 AM
Schlagtrio [Percussion trio], (1952, restored in 1973)
for amplified piano and antique cymbal, and 2 x 3 timpani with triangle and bongo
Original title: Schlagquartett für Klavier und 3 x 2 Pauken
Duration: 16' at MM 90

(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco2/Rec/Stockhausen/IR02.jpg)

Schlagtrio is music for a piano, in the revised version an amplified piano, playing a role similar to the piano in Kreuzspiel. In attendance are a group of six tuned timpani, a uniform timbre substituting for the various unpitched percussion of the earlier work. The timpani are tuned to quarter-tone pitches in an attempt to locate them outside the pitch regime of the piano. They correspond to six "reverberant spaces" or virtual echo chambers selectively set in vibration by a variety of carefully defined piano attacks (a rationale looking ahead to the solo tam-tam of Mikrophonie I). The timpani here are clearly passive resonators of fixed tuning, so their behavior acoustically resembles six resonating chambers.

Though couched in esoteric terms, Stockhausen's description of the work, reproduced in full in Texte 2, describes it as a process in which the two sound-worlds, one clear and precise, the other shadowy, approach from different directions, make contact, eventually overlap, then withdraw. Like Kreuzspiel, the zone of contact generates a new musical entity (a twelve-tone melody). Unlike Kreuzspiel, the contact is between the piano and percussion--in the earlier work, the "two approaching entities" were both represented in the piano part. What Stockhausen is clearly trying to achieve is a reconciliation of extreme and median values; also of interest is his modification of series durations to incorporate degrees of silence, or rests.

The work is a considerable challenge to the interpreter, but productive all the same. The revised score is less intimidating and beautiful to look at, but the real attraction lies under the surface: how to realize the interplay Stockhausen has in mind. Yet again the answer seems to lie in maximum discretion and "close-microphone" technique; timpani coperti for a quieter tone, and smaller "Mozart" sticks for sharper accentuation. The register and precise pitch of timpani raise a number of issues in principle: in their role as instruments "of the center" (imitating the role of the vibraphone in Spiel, but passive rather than active), they seem rather low in pitch, and perhaps too close in pitch to be perceived as alternates to the octave registers of the piano. The counter-objection might be that Stockhausen needed large and deep resonators to simulate actual spaces, in which case a set of "gong" drums might be the answer: wonderfully deep and ringing bass drums, a sound heard to great effect in Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie and in Bartók's Sonata for two pianos and percussion.

(from Robin Maconie, Other planets)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 03, 2011, 05:51:53 AM
Truly, some things are self-satirical!

Concerning Eliot Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei: I used the work with an 8th Grade Latin class a few years ago.  We translated the text, and then listened to excerpts of the music.

The reactions from the students ranged from boredom to amazement: some had interesting interpretations of how the music connected to the text.

In contrast to that exercise, I had in an earlier year played excerpts of the Stockhausen Helicopter Quartet to a European History class of high-school students, and the reaction was less than favorable.  "Was this supposed to be serious?"

I posed the counter-question: Was it perhaps a musical counterpart to some of Salvador Dali's humorous stunts of surrealism?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 03, 2011, 08:11:45 AM
The only thing that is well documented is Robert Craft's role in winning Stravinsky over to twelve-tone composition & Stravinsky's professed admiration for Schoenberg & Webern.  Stravinsky's interest in the music of his juniors (Boulez and Stockhausen) is obvious from his interviews with Craft but there you will find him analysing a handful of works from the outside, not looking for formulas to reproduce in his own work.

That is correct; the "influence" I was thinking of was of the sort that led to Stravinsky being accused of selling out to the younger generation and of trying to please Boulez. That the level of interest was more or less superficial is well-known, however someone recently found Boulez's series from Structures 1A among Stravinsky's sketches for Threni, even though the finished score shows no trace of it.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: PaulSC on September 03, 2011, 11:21:13 AM
Maybe, instead of Stockhausen's Spaceship, we could rename the thread Karlheinz's Kindergarten, and everything would fit?

Anyway, Webern was clearly the key influence in Stravinsky's adoption of twelve-tone techniques. Another important figure was Krenek, whose method of rotating hexachords became a regular part of Stravinsky's late practice. If we see a little bit of the Darmstadt generation in Stravinsky's last works, it shouldn't surprise us, because after all there is a little bit of Stravinsky in the DNA of those younger composers. (Possibly, it's there in spite of their efforts to flush it out.)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on September 03, 2011, 03:15:15 PM
Salvador Dali's sense of humor is well-documented, e.g. he said he wanted to be Charlie Chaplin AND Velasquez.   ;D

Stockhausen of course came from the Planet Sirius   :o   and cannot have a sense of humor!   ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 03, 2011, 08:34:22 PM
the humor of Stockhausen is one of the main reasons why I like it so much. Same applies to Ligeti. Boulez on the other hand, doesn't have that.

This aspect I find very interesting, because the Atomic Age Composers were all supposed to be about Science, and not any subjective human experience (which yea, Boulez does fit that 'cold' aspect), so, how they dealt with it (or not), and incorporated it,... definitely Ligeti takes the macabre route,... Stockhausen's does come across more as German Art Haus Humor, which may or may not translate?

Kagel? Bussotti? Globokar? (but,... is it funny?)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 03, 2011, 10:05:17 PM
Spiel für Orchester [Game for orchestra] (1952, revised 1973)
two movements for orchestra
Duration: 16'

(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco2/Rec/Stockhausen/IR02.jpg)

Spiel was originally planned as second and third movements of a three-movement work, with Formel, but having completed all three, Stockhausen became dissatisfied with what he felt to be the imbalance of a thematic orientated opening followed by two pieces of a more pointillistic tendency and on a larger scale. The three pieces form a set nevertheless, each being a formulation of a relationship of a central instrument embodying light and brilliance, and the orchestra which seems to circulate around it like a planetary system and draw energy from it. In Formel and Spiel I this radiant sonority is represented by the vibraphone and glockenspiel, timbres that glisten rather than glow hot; in Spiel II Stockhausen introduces a real crystal goblet with the idea of producing a stronger and more lasting ringing tone at the work's climax. It is interesting once again to recognize the composer's attachment to imagery of a generated and reflected light at this early stage in his career.

Both pieces display a greater sense of physical energy and texture after the relative coolness of Kreuzspiel; even Formel is more lyrical, despite the extreme registers. In his layout of the orchestra, Stockhausen follows Kreuzspiel in locating the bass instruments to the bass register side of the piano, and the higher instruments to the treble. The arrangement is once again reminiscent of baroque music, and Stockhausen's primary purpose seems to be for the orchestra to be perceived as fractionated timbres of an extended keyboard.

This is Stockhausen's first unambiguously pointillistic work. Like Messiaen's Mode de valeurs et d'intensités, it can be appreciated and studied as a test case for serial practice, with the difference that Messiaen's modes are designed for the piano, and the series of Spiel for a much larger and less homogenous ensemble. A piano is a chamber instrument and also an acoustic environment defined as a uniform pitch-space, within which the performer at the keyboard can control a range of dynamic and other distinctions considerably greater than can be heard in a concert hall. An orchestra by contrast is a "broken consort": a collection of timbres defining a nonuniform pitch domain, and occupying rather than defining a much larger acoustic enclosure.

Messiaen's mode of attacks for Mode de valeurs is a rough and ready affair, even in terms of the piano, through it is worth noting how carefully he distributes dynamics and attacks through the three pitch and duration registers in the layering of the three modes. Stockhausen expended an enormous effort in selecting percussion instruments to improve on Messiaen's mode of attacks (so many revisions, in fact, that even today they are not specified in the publisher's catalogue). His attention to attacks is telling, given that Stockhausen makes no other change to Formel's textbook orchestra of 4 x 3 winds, 4 x 3 keyboard registers, and 4 x 3 strings--and with the same hole in the middle too: no violas. In Kreuzspiel, the ultimate function of the "complementary zone" percussion is limited to imitating the sound of the piano action and the hissed intake of breath of the wind instruments; for Spiel I Stockhausen reverts to an earlier plan to create a vocabulary of attack possibilities based on spoken consonants. From the 1952 manuscript of Spiel I the percussion listed consists of 6 unpitched metal resonators, one for each of the six octave registers, and 4 x 3 ancillary groups: pitched metal, wood "click," wood and drum "trill," and low drums, each of the latter centered in a defined register. For Spiel II in 1952 this formidable array of attack instruments is reduced to the glistening sounds of eleven cymbals (the glass making twelve), and four low drums (with the addition of an extra tom-tom).

The combination of a more pointillistic texture and added percussion puts Spiel already some distance ahead of Formel. Stockhausen has clearly taken on board some of Messiaen's ideas about "attack" and "resonance," and organization of register and dynamics, from Mode de valeurs.

Spiel I, of 100 measures, depicts a gradual accretion of melodic chains from atomistic "points." The tempo is a brisk 12/8 at MM 96, later altered to 120. It is a music of high contrasts between the brilliant flashes of percussion and the muted glow of the sustaining instruments: a nocturne with exploding shells. Out of a hovering background of sustained strings and ringing keyboards, one by one the wind instruments appear as if picked out by the searchlight of the vibraphone. A rising inflection in the opening measure recalls a similar gesture in Formel, but here the dynamic range ppp-ff is more extreme. In fact, extreme dynamics prove to be the rule, with the vibraphone struggling to reach sfff from the very start. Periodic repeating sixths on d#/b enter very quietly from measure 2 at both extremes of range and continue to the end. The middle ground is occupied by percussion alternating sharp attacks and pop ringing or tremolo resonances. High and low pairs predominate. A suggestion of a theme from the oboe at 21, in unison with the vibraphone, is taken up by violins at 31; gradually more links are added to the chain until at 42 the vibraphone articulates a complete series minus the b natural, which continues to ring on celesta and piano. At 40 strings sustain high and low pitches, and at 49 the vibraphone begins a statement of the series in two-note groups, provoking a full entry of percussion in their different periodicities. At 56 the vibraphone is more "pointed" and sharp fff pitches on strings and woodwinds begin a process that leads to gradually more sustained pitches collecting in the mid-range, restoring uneasy calm.

Spiel II, of 114 measures, is visibly a leap ahead technically. In 4/2, with a given tempo of MM 48 (altered in performance to MM 40), this movement begins quietly with sustained ppp pitched and unpitched percussion in three parts at extremes of high and low register, a resonant background out of which point and group formations condense and are transferred to wind and strings. The distribution of elements within the pitch space reaches a maximum at measure 56, the midpoint in the original score, where the clear crystalline tone of the glass was originally due to ring out, a moment of climax after which the music would decline to a calm ending. For the premiere performance under Hans Rosbaud the valuable crystal goblet donated for the purpose was struck rather too vigorously with a metal beater and shattered. That the premiere ended in confusion at this point is a story that  has passed into myth; according to Stockhausen, he and Rosbaud had already decided to curtail the performance there, though it had not been their intention to mark the conditional ending so unexpectedly.

(from Robin Maconie, Other planets)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 04, 2011, 02:44:49 PM
33.57
Musik Im Bauch ("Music in the Belly")
for 6 percussionists & music boxes


I borrowed this from a record library in Manchester in the early 1980s, recorded it on cassette and gave it a few whirls.

I didn't get on with it at all.

Having not heard it for a quarter of a century (and apart from a lot of boring swishing and tinkling, I can't remember a thing about it) I am obviously ill placed to to comment. But Stockhausen certainly had his off days (Helicopter Quartet, anyone?), and I think Musik Im Bauch is one of his less interesting works.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 05, 2011, 04:48:22 AM
Sirius is majestic, and regal, a truly stellar work, a glittering jewel in the crown of the composers achievements. -Justin Patrick

And totally insufferable, nowadays as much as 20 years ago when I saw it live (the pre-concert talk was good though).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 05, 2011, 06:43:39 AM
re-visiting it with fresh ears

A....HA!!! ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 08, 2011, 04:56:57 PM
Trans is another work of his that does absolutely nothing for me ..

Same here; it may have to be heard live to be fully appreciated (like Inori and most of Licht, I would venture).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 10, 2011, 04:55:40 AM
Trans is another work of his that does absolutely nothing for me ..

NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!!!

Oh, well, each to their own. I adore Trans and was thrilled to see it live in 2008.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 10, 2011, 08:51:05 AM
Listening to this one again before retiring for the night ..

31.48
Helicopter String Quartet
3rd Scene of Mittwoch aus Licht


The Helikopter-Streichquartett (Helicopter String Quartet) is one such module, and forms the third scene of Mittwoch Aus Licht (Wednesday from Light). The inspiration for it came directly from a dream. Stockhausen initially had no interest in writing a string quartet when he was approached with a commission for one by Professor Hans Landesmann of the Salzburg Festival. Then he had a dream which changed his mind. In it, he flew above four helicopters, each containing a member of the string quartet. The helicopters in his dream were transparent, so he could see through them. He sketched out the dream and made some preliminary plans, but did not find the time to compose it until 1992-1993.

It is a complex work, requiring not only four helicopters who have specific flight paths and patterns they must make in the air, and string players who must be synchronized in time though separated in space, but also transmissions of live video singnals to an auditorium equipped with four columns of televisions and loudspeakers, one for each helicopter/musician. Microphones are placed on the rotator blades of the helicopter making them secondary instruments. The strings are intended to be louder in the mix than the blades. The audience watches on the monitors and listens on the speakers while all the action takes place outside and above them.

Many logistical leaps and hurtles were overcome by Stockhausen and the organizers of the first performance to make the dream a reality. I appreciate his creative willfulness and the sheer gumption that led to the work being realized. It carries an important lesson for other dreamers: sometimes it is necessary to infect others with a personal dream.

The musicality of Helikopter-Streichquartett is a dense whirlwind of grating tremolo. It begins slowly with the take off, reaching a climax at great heights where the volume between strings and helicopter blades are mixed equally, and finally ending with the descent and landing. The structure of the piece has a pleasing symmetry. - Justin Patrick


Karlheinz Stockhausen's Helikopter-Streichquartett is one of the most controversial and talked-about works of art in recent years. Composed for the Arditti Quartet and premiered at the 1995 Holland Festival, it involves the four members of a string quartet playing in four different helicopters flying through the air. The music the quartet plays is then sent to a central space and mixed at a sound board. In his film Helicopter String Quartet, Frank Scheffer documents the complex preparations in the month leading up to the premiere of this work, as well as eliciting insights from the composer regarding how he conceived and executed it. Stockhausen tells Scheffer, for example, that the idea for the work came to him in a dream he had of musicians being able to fly. He then produced a fascinatingly original score in which each instrument is written in a different color, and in which the four string lines frequently jump from one staff to the other in order to imitate birds flying in different formations. Stockhausen also analyzes the content of the work for Scheffer, in particular showing how the writing for the quartet is meant to merge with the sonic characteristics of the helicopters. Scheffer goes behind the scenes and, stage by stage, shows the enormous production needed to realize Helikopter-Streichquartett.

External links:

http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD53.htm

http://www.stockhausen.org/helicopter_intro.html

http://www.stockhausen.org/heli_pg_1.html

ok, you're forcing me to put it on! ::) ;D

I always dread this, haha, but, maybe I'm in the mood today? ;) Let's listen...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 10, 2011, 09:28:21 AM
HELIKOPTER-QUARTETT (31:51)


0:00: turbines begin

1:57: first entry of strings

@2:45: tremolos/rotors get faster; constantly, the strings keep going up, one tone at a time...

@4:20: nice mixing of rotors and tremolos

5:16: the strings suddenly break into semi-glissandos

5:54: first entry of quasi-pizzicato

6:28: off 'beats'

6:47: first entry of vocal 'counting'; more pizz & gliss

@7:35: longer held notes (momentary)

8:27: second entry of 'counting'

9:26: new sense of tension; third entry of 'counting'

10:13: different sense of tension (lower notes?)

11:22: pizzicato

@11:50: interesting rotor-phasing sound

12:39: low cello ostinato

12:58: fourth entry of 'counting'

@13:50: squealing violin

14:30: all strings on same tone; piercing lead tone; most interesting quartet work so far

@15:30: note values begin sliding down instead of up

16:16: fifth entry of 'counting'

@17:10: some amount of stasis; very high violin, aggressive

18:26: sixth entry of 'counting'

@19:20: gliss/trem with prominent violin work

@20:26: a little sul

20:46: seventh entry of 'counting'; interesting violin glissandos

@21:20: sense that things are winding down instead of up; interesting violin work

22:22: eighth entry of 'counting'

23:30: ninth entry of 'counting'

24:32: tenth entry of 'counting'

24:46: interesting note

25:05: interesting trems

25:50: interesting moment

26:25: more stasis oriented trems; then, some wild vibrato

27:00: signal rhythms; lower tension still

@27:30: much slower feeling

@28:00: continue relaxing tension

29:00: continued relaxing of tension

@29:30: lower tones; nice viola sound; loss of any fast values

30:30: last, low, cello notes; last sound of rotors



Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 10, 2011, 09:29:12 AM
ok, you're forcing me to put it on! ::) ;D

I always dread this, haha, but, maybe I'm in the mood today? ;) Let's listen...

Community Service done for the day! ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 10, 2011, 10:02:46 AM
Has the Conservatoire come some ways since its Director, Luigi Cherubini, blocked performances of Berlioz and since its students deliberately botched performances of Schoenberg? This curiosity -  a recording of Stockhausen's Trans, featuring the Orchestre des Etudiants du Conservatoire, would seem to suggest it. Not that the quality of the performance is substantially better when they try to do well on Stockhausen, than when they deliberately botch Schoenberg. Unless it's the music that's not that good - Stockhausen's, that is, not Schoenberg's. There is more excitement to Ernest Bour's recording, still, partly owing to audience participation, partly to a sense of mystery Bour is able to convey through the background strings, partly to an otherwordly clarity he conveys to the solo winds.

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/StockhausenConservatoire001.jpg)(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/StockhausenConservatoire002.jpg)

Also featured on this CD is Chausson's poem for Violin and Albert Roussel's neo-classical 4th Symphony: not all traditions are worth maintaining but Roussel is OK.

I always preferred Hans Zender's studio recording, which made much more sense of the wind and percussion writing. Although I think the resounding "clop" of Bour's loom is more effective than the rather dry sound of Zender's loom. I take it that this new recording isn't up to much, then.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 10, 2011, 11:14:02 AM
Posted on the Official Stockhausen Site (http://www.stockhausen.org/whats_new.html) >> You may now audition and purchase Stockhausen Compact Disks using a credit card directly by visiting http://www.stockhausencds.com/


Oh, wow! Thanks for the info. I might finally get around to buying that 1998 Momente, or perhaps I'll fill in a gap in my Licht recordings. After Thursday, Saturday and Friday, where should I go? I've heard good things about Tuesday.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 10, 2011, 03:57:11 PM
With regards to Licht .. i'd say get it all if you can .. it's all one extraordinary highly integrated musical world that he's created there and it's a lot of fun. Once you go into this site >> http://www.stockhausencds.com/ .. just click on any album cover and samples are provided.

I've just discovered the samples. They're absolutely amazing! I've been out partying tonight and am a bit, ahem, refreshed, but I plan to spend most of tomorrow clicking through the hundreds (thousands?) of samples. My poor other half.
What I've heard of Tuesday sounds fantastic!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 11, 2011, 03:03:12 PM
Dienstag/Tuesday (the day of War) is the most concise .. and it's a blast! Pure fun. The Licht cycle builds and mounts in complexity and has a wide expressive range; tho musically it's unified and is generated from a single series (or "formula" as he calls it) .. and after years of listening to it, I'd say that within Licht there are many masterpieces; Mittwoch & Sonntag are perhaps the apex of the cycle .. being the most diverse and complex of the lot. Mittwoch seems to reflect the complexity & hussle/bussle of the modern world with it's machines, technology, politics, nature .. while Sonntag is more like a serene calm after the storm, a parting of the clouds .. and it has a very devotional, spiritual and ceremonial vibe to it - like a celestial cosmic mass of sorts .. 'this vibe' to a certain extent carries over into the Klang cycle aswell.

The extracts from Tuesday's Greeting really intrigued me. I have the LP of Jahreslauf and have heard Oktophonie; obviously their Tuesday incarnations are quite different. I was also very impressed by what I heard of Monday, an opera I'm totally ignorant about.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on September 17, 2011, 08:50:52 AM
Best thing to do is let ol' Fruit Loops run his mouth and simply ignore him. That's what I've been doing, James, and it's worked wonders.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Robert on September 17, 2011, 08:54:40 AM
Um yea .. see? This just isn't constructive at all, and no .. i'm not going to even bother responding to your accusations either. I'd rather stay on topic. Back to the music ..

James your in OVERLOAD.....YOU HAVE CRAMMED SO MUCH INFORMATION , I AM HAVING TOUBLE BREATHING.......
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 20, 2011, 05:29:38 PM
Quartet-playing in a helicopter is the type of a bad idea - bad idea because it is mostly unrealizable, in terms of the logistics (the long negotiations with military and civil authorities required for the first performance), the costs, and the safety of musicians, pilots and spectators underneath. There are also issues relating to the difficulties for four musicians to play their parts in sync, when they are playing in separate locations - granted, the Arditti kids have pulled it off nicely. Lastly (if I am not missing anything), playing well in the narrow space of an helicopter would be complicated if the helicopter were on the ground: here, the helicopter is moving and though, true enough, I never have had a helicopter ride, they sure don't look like they have the smooth stability of airplanes in good weather.

It would be disingenuous to claim the music, as music - the string parts - is bad; indeed, it reminds us that Stockhausen, all through his many experiments (failed or successful), his Dada-inspired antics, his obsessions with electronics, his borrowals from California-Style happenings, his multi-cultural dabblings and New Age mimicry of religious fervor, remained essentially a composer. But it isn't particularly original, either, as it does no more than to hover (no pun intended) in between the world of Ligeti, and the world of 1960's Penderecki, who did not need helicopters, machines or goofy-sounding voices to achieve novelty, as he knew how to wrest new sounds out of these old instruments, - violins, violas, and cellos. Perhaps Stockhausen's gimmicks and experiments of the 1960's and beyond were reflective of a desperate effort at re-enacting the creativity and the originality he had attained during the glory days of Integral Serialism and of Gruppen - a creativity and an originality that subsequently have often eluded him.

As I was timing out the piece, I was thinking how this piece isn't really all THAT bad,... I think I would like to have heard only the string parts though. I think it would have worked that way, if KHS just did it as 'Impression' rather than as 'Fact'.

The whole trajectory of the piece is interesting... I recall doing a really stupid art project, but, once I got into the actual IDEA of it (this SQ came from a dream), it became as this piece,... tailored to its own specifications. Still, it seems a lot of work for pure vanity, no? As an ACT, it is impressive, as you say, logistically, but, as 'music' (or... whaaatever) it does seem to be lacking. My mother overheard...mm... not good!! :o

I might not wait another three years to listen again! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 20, 2011, 11:07:54 PM
But it isn't particularly original, either, as it does no more than to hover (no pun intended) in between the world of Ligeti, and the world of 1960's Penderecki, who did not need helicopters, machines or goofy-sounding voices to achieve novelty, as he knew how to wrest new sounds out of these old instruments, - violins, violas, and cellos.

My thoughts exactly when listening to this piece. The goofy (hah!) count-shouts are just annoying and the string writing is an extended remix of the type of sliding, drifting material he used to far greater effect in Carré.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 21, 2011, 05:10:13 AM
Yea he never really had a natural affinity for string instruments (they never sparked his creative juices & imagination) .. but one aspect of his thinking was that he was always fascinated with creating a perfect harmony between traditional instruments and noises of daily life, live mixing, time & space - so in that regard it's a tremendous success. The strings blend, imitate and interact with the musical characteristics of the rotors .. playing Licht material polyphonically aswell .. it's a wild, fun multi-media scene from the Weds. opera .. and only KS could pull off something like this .. he was a brave & fearless creator and opened so many doors ..

Yes.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 21, 2011, 02:43:26 PM
Carré is entirely different, ..

Of course it's different in some ways, but I think that a skilled music student could strip out 30 seconds of the string writing of Carré and cobble together something not unlike the entire Quartet.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on September 23, 2011, 07:50:38 AM
Impossible.

Ha-ha! Oh, James, you old grump, you're being far too literal.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 24, 2011, 08:30:09 AM
Ha-ha! Oh, James, you old grump, you're being far too literal.

 :D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 24, 2011, 04:49:51 PM
Ha-ha! Oh, James, you old grump, you're being far too literal.

That may be, but don't let any superficial sonic or textural similarities in both works fool you into thinking they are "the same". Outside the rotor sound inspiration, the sound in motion idea and the use of four "layers", the process and intent are quite different (these facets are shared to some extent with other works, e.g. Kontakte--and no one would claim it sounds the same as Carré).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 26, 2011, 08:51:16 PM
That may be, but don't let any superficial sonic or textural similarities in both works fool you into thinking they are "the same". Outside the rotor sound inspiration, the sound in motion idea and the use of four "layers", the process and intent are quite different (these facets are shared to some extent with other works, e.g. Kontakte--and no one would claim it sounds the same as Carré).

How do you feel about Der Helikopter uartette?,... seriously?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 30, 2011, 07:51:27 PM
How do you feel about Der Helikopter uartette?,... seriously?

It is certainly one of the most extravagant ideas for a work I have ever seen--although sonically it is not that interesting as a quartet (or, to put it another way, I'd rather listen to other pieces if I want to delight on the sounds being extracted from the string quartet). I like it, though, most probably because my exposure to it was through Frank Scheffer's film in the late 90s, which gives it some behind-the-scenes context.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 06:55:37 AM
He had the ears, technological know-how & a scientific level of writing to pull it all off.

Hmmm, no. You could say that of Xenakis, but not of Stockhausen. If you read his articles--e.g. starting with How time passes...--you'll see that the scientific basis is very thin; what we have is a pseudo-science with home-grown terminology, concepts and inferences behind a façade of rigor and thoroughness that is as arbitrary and fanciful as most other creative endeavors. But he was a creative and imaginative genius, that he was.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 05:15:41 PM
You've misunderstood what I ment. I was talking about the science of writing. Not any scientific basis.

I have no idea what you mean there.

Tho even there, I think Stockhausen's work illustrates that even in that regard he was more informed, diverse & experimental in spades.

That is a joke, right?

Xenakis's writing & musical conception does not even approach the level of musicality, forensic insight, refinement & clarity you hear with Stockhausen.

Some of those are subjective; in any case, when I listen to Xenakis I don't want it to sound like Stockhausen (and vice-versa).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: springrite on October 01, 2011, 05:54:13 PM
I don't think anyone would understand what the "science of writing" means. Adding the word "science" doesn't make it sound better. He is a good writer for sure. But let's not use pointless words just because it is a good word.

I will have the home all to myself this afternoon so I just might play some youthful Stockhausen at full blast and see if the neighbor notices.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 05:57:52 PM
I didn't think you did .. but i was referring to the level of his skill in musical writing ..

So his notations look like rigorous technical documents. For the most part, unfortunately they aren't--beyond reflecting the obstinacy of the composer.

No, that is not a joke .. Stockhausen was well informed/versed into the nature of physical acoustics,

Myth. See how he abused basic concepts of physics and acoustics in his articles.

information theory,

Myth. So he had a few classes at a time that information theory was a burgeoning field of science. His application of it, however, was not above that of a dilettante.

phonetics

Now that one was probably the most significant extra-musical area of study for Stockhausen, and the one he followed more systematically. We owe several masterpieces to his study of phonetics.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 06:43:23 PM
petrarch none of that stuff is myth .. he was informed & and had plenty of practical experience .. it definitely aided his approach, ear & musical thinking/writing. And a special art & science it was, his.

With regards to being "well informed/versed", it most definitely is myth. He was a dilettante in those areas. And indeed they aided his approach and guided his ear. Coupled with perseverance and obstinacy (there's your practical experience), we can now enjoy a number of works among the greatest. But don't let your admiration influence your objectivity; if you read his writings, it becomes all too clear.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 07:22:33 PM
It's not a myth. And I'm thinking about how it's manifested in his body of work - not his articles.

Self-imposed ignorance is really the most difficult to overcome. What better expression is there of his musical thinking than his own writings, in which he had plenty to say about his approach, his ideas and his music (to the tune of 10 volumes of Texte and countless analyses, introductory and explanatory texts)?

And compared to what came before? .. he was definitely informed in these areas!

It's almost a case of a little bit of information being worse than none at all.

But that's fine, I also find the "theory" and all of the ideas quite fascinating and enthralling.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on October 01, 2011, 07:28:24 PM
It is certainly one of the most extravagant ideas for a work I have ever seen--although sonically it is not that interesting as a quartet (or, to put it another way, I'd rather listen to other pieces if I want to delight on the sounds being extracted from the string quartet). I like it, though, most probably because my exposure to it was through Frank Scheffer's film in the late 90s, which gives it some behind-the-scenes context.

Well, it's not really a string quartet per se, is it, haha? The notes say:



HELICOPTER STRING QUARTET
for string quartet, 4 helicopters with pilots and 4 sound technicians, 4 television transmitters, 4X3 sound transmitters, auditorium with 4 columns of televisions and 4 columns of loudspeakers; sound projectionist with mixingconsole; moderator (ad lib)



That does seem to send it in to the realm of Art-as-Logistical-Nightmare,... almost like the 'effort', I suppose, he meant, when he said that 9/11 was a work of art.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on October 01, 2011, 07:34:05 PM
Hmmm, no. You could say that of Xenakis, but not of Stockhausen. If you read his articles--e.g. starting with How time passes...--you'll see that the scientific basis is very thin; what we have is a pseudo-science with home-grown terminology, concepts and inferences behind a façade of rigor and thoroughness that is as arbitrary and fanciful as most other creative endeavors. But he was a creative and imaginative genius, that he was.

I like this a lot,... reminds me of new age baloney vs. simple 'scientific'... I have to say, I don't understand James's characterization of Xenakis. I just don't want to start nuthin!!!








btw- are you guys dating?????? :P :-* ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on October 01, 2011, 07:37:07 PM
I like this a lot,... reminds me of new age baloney vs. simple 'scientific'... I have to say, I don't understand James's characterization of Xenakis. I just don't want to start nuthin!!!








btw- are you guys dating?????? :P :-* ;D

I'm just sayin,... it's 11:30 on a Saturday night,... and... here we are... on the Stockhausen Thread ::),... I mean, I'm not sayin anything ::)...

 ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on October 01, 2011, 07:40:10 PM
Self-imposed ignorance is really the most difficult to overcome. What better expression is there of his musical thinking than his own writings, in which he had plenty to say about his approach, his ideas and his music (to the tune of 10 volumes of Texte and countless analyses, introductory and explanatory texts)?

It's almost a case of a little bit of information being worse than none at all.

But that's fine, I also find the "theory" and all of the ideas quite fascinating and enthralling.

I'm with you on all this.


I feel like I want to bring up the Urantia book...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 07:44:01 PM
The best expression of it is the art itself .. clearly words are NEVER enough, and don't come close.

Why then do you care whether he was well versed and informed in the areas you mentioned?

The art is beyond question, but so is the inaccuracy of the "well versed/informed" assertion.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 07:46:28 PM
I'm just sayin,... it's 11:30 on a Saturday night,... and... here we are... on the Stockhausen Thread ::),... I mean, I'm not sayin anything ::)...

It's 11:45 AM where I am, and I am just killing time before I go out to have lunch with my wife. I'll be back in the 11:45 PM timezone in about 3 months.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on October 01, 2011, 07:55:33 PM
It's 11:45 AM where I am, and I am just killing time before I go out to have lunch with my wife. I'll be back in the 11:45 PM timezone in about 3 months.

haha,... ok, I'm the nerd ::), haha... got me good on that one!! ;)

oy,... yea,...well,...here I am! :-[haha ;) ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 08:05:05 PM
I never said 'i cared' i only mentioned it in passing .. it's a well known aspect and it is self evident in the work .. being informed in those areas and whatnot & and it's absolutely true too ..  i didn't expect to get into an argument about it.

If you claim it is not a myth you better back it up. "Well-known", "self-evident" and "absolutely true" just don't cut it when the evidence to the contrary is abundant in the texts he wrote for 50 years (including the extensive liner notes on the CDs).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 01, 2011, 08:30:04 PM
You're just cranky & looking for a fight that's all, . To step in from out of nowhere and say it's 'a myth' is just to go to the other extreme. You even admitted that 'it indeed aided his approach & guided his ear'. Nuff said.

Ha! great exit strategy :D And James displays once more his refined oratorial skills.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on October 02, 2011, 04:16:45 AM
Hey petrarch .. you happen to have this in your collection?  .. the samples sound intriguing enough.

Stockhausen Edition no. 17.1
(For Times To Come)


(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco5/stockhausen/17.1pics/17ax.jpg)

Not yet, but it is on the list for my next order. As a continuation of Aus den sieben Tagen, I gave it lower priority than other SV titles I wanted to focus on (but now that there's a healthy amount of non-vocal Klang works--and Strahlen and Jubiläum--the time is coming to pull the trigger again).

Sonically it is quite interesting, with a very contemplative atmosphere and with pointillistic events framed by long silences. Are you finally warming up to this kind of sonority?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on October 10, 2011, 10:28:07 AM
I got a copy of Cosmic Pulses from a friend of mine, and on first listening it's impressed me a lot more than most later Stockhausen. I also get the feeling that KS was pushing much more outside his comfort zone than in some of the 'formula' compositions that made up Licht (there are certainly some Ligetian resonances to the rhythmic interactions here, and very much thicker textures than I've heard in other late Stockhausen). It'd be good to hear it in the surround sound the work demands rather than mere stereo, though.

I've sometimes found later KS to impress me a lot on first listening and not really hold that attention after repeats; I'm a bit more optimistic about this work's long-term potential, though.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on October 12, 2011, 01:24:12 AM
Cosmic Pulses is a monster of a piece .. it's perceptual overload really, the disc doesn't do it justice clearly; but like most Stockhausen repeated listening reveals more and more .. I'd love to experience it in the flesh in an auditorium with the proper sound projection at max levels etc .. it must be overwhelming! I'd actually like to experience a lot of his work live!

Another way to get to know the Cosmic Pulses music I am finding is to listen to it's children pieces Klang Hrs. 14-21, which peel the layers of it's polyphony 3 at a time with an added soloist in registers lowest to highest.

I absolutely love the musical variety, fluency & unity of the late cycles, Klang & especially Licht. I've always had a high opinion of Stockhausen but digging into these late cycles has made me a much, much bigger admirer of his music than ever before.

I heard it in the Royal Albert Hall in 2008 as part of the Stockhausen Day Prom. It was impressive live, in a noisy, spinning, clattering kind of way, but unlike Oktophonie which I heard in the old Billingsgate Fish Market a few years earlier and was genuinely impressed by, I've never felt the urge to hear it again.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on October 13, 2011, 12:42:34 AM
Lucky you .. if they programmed it again, you think you'd check it out one more time tho?
I love Oktophonie lots .. KS's electronic music is so inspirational.

Yes, I would. It's always fascinating to hear Stockhausen's electronic works "live". Odd thing about Oktophonie; even though I heard it in proper octophonic sound, I found it hard to perceive the sounds actually going up and down. Left, right, back and forth, easy. Up and down? My ears struggled. And I had a good seat quite near the middle of the hall.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on October 18, 2011, 05:03:38 AM
20.36
Stop
for orchestra

24.40
Ylem
for 19 players

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5179%2BvSsQPL._SS500_.jpg)

Stop, an ensemble work originally written in 1965 but here in a version specially conceived in 1973 for the London Sinfonietta, is a fine example of how German composer Karlheinz Stockhausen subtly loosened the straightjacket of his earlier rigorous serial composition to allow a breath of fresh air. Performed with incomparable brilliance by the Sinfonietta under the watchful eye and baton of the composer, Stop is, at one and the same time, uncompromisingly experimental and viscerally engaging. Ylem, which dates from 1972, is what happened when the composer broke through to the other side of the wall by abandoning traditional notation in favor of "intuitive," even "telepathic" (i.e. improvised) procedures. Conceived as a musical and theatrical metaphor for the expanding and contracting of the universe (no less!), the piece starts out with all 19 instrumentalists clustered around the piano for an opening "big bang" which sends them out individually into and beyond the concert hall. They subsequently return for another explosion, only to disperse again, the work ending when all the musicians are effectively out of earshot. Like many of Stockhausen's concepts, it's laughably simple on paper, but stunningly effective when heard. D.W.


Before I bought this LP in the '80s, I'd read some disparaging reviews so my expectations weren't too high. But I was really impressed by Stop, which was surprisingly varied, atmospheric and expressionistic. I've never taken to Ylem, though. OK, the chaotic sections around the tam-tam strokes are quite exciting, but I've never been able to make sense of the main body of the work.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on November 02, 2011, 06:31:47 PM
(http://www.sfbg.com/sites/default/files/pumpkin%201011_0.JPG)

http://www.sfbg.com/pixel_vision/2011/10/25/interview-master-pumpkin-carver

 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 07, 2011, 07:02:04 AM
I finally got that Gruppen/Punkte disc.

1) Surprised,... I thought it was Wergo.

2) The packaging is infuriating. I am so sick of these stupid fold-outs, with no sleeve for the cd so it can get scratched or what not.

3) I guess I'm so used to the Abbado that this recording knocked me a bit. It felt like a completely different experience than the DG. Surely, the recording is much clearer, and the playing sounds more...uh...'important'?? Still, I really get the sense of 'joy' in the DG version that I just didn't hear here, as if this recording really were 'serious business'. I will most certainly have to go back and forth here.

I did enjoy the more up front electric guitar here. Yes, one certainly can hear a lot more stuff here. And the spatial aspect can sort of be heard (maybe this was part of my 'huh?' here,... the recording venue seems to have an (unobtrusive) 'bubble' around it so one can hear things closer and farther away.


For me, Punkte was the BigDeal here. What a strange 30mins.! It feels like music is being 'raked', a very strange 'trawling' sound that really made me feel 'dark', a very industrial, post-war Germany of hopelessness,... this is the most depressing BA Zimmermann piece i've ever heard! :'( It reminded me of the buzzing whoosh of radiation saturated Chernobyl, a bleak landscape of industrial blackness. I was really kind of creeped out by the music (in a good way of course), it really had a strange, subterranean sound. And that 'grating' 'raking' sound was very original,... it remind me of some industrial aspects of Xenakis. It reminds me of the Xenakis of Terretekhtorh and Nomos Gamma.

And, at @30mins., it's pretty long and involved too. And, seeing as it was revised very late, it, I suppose, has some late 'thoughts' in it, and one surely is able to get a snapshot of KS through this piece: it is a very complex impression, let me assure you! :o

This cd left me scratching my head. Gruppen I can figure out, but Punkte is like impenetrable (a very imposing piece),... almost reminds me of some Zorn in its blackness. Yea, I just interpreted it as some of the blackest 'normal' music I've ever heard. It left a very chilling aftertaste.

Also, because of the dates of revision, it's impossible (for me) to think of this piece as being from the '50s or '60s,... I don't know, it just sounded like 'where DID this come from?'.





I'm wondering if I should have heard this music earlier in my studies. Hearing it now, after all the other raucous music I've exposed myself to, it is quite the head scratcher,... I just can't seem to 'place' it. Well, it's thought provoking to say the least. ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 07, 2011, 11:14:36 AM
'some' of the issues with the Abbado DG recently touched-on by Jerry Kohl ..

Claudio Abbado? In his notorious DG recording, Abbado has the guitarist perform the cadenza with his
amplifier *off*.
Now, .. an *electric* guitar without amplification sounds like rubber bands stretched over a cigar box. Was anybody paying any attention to the dynamics at all? How many other instruments were substituted or just left out (e.g., the African slit drums, pitched tomtoms and tuned cowbells, 5-octave marimbaphone)?

Abbado, who replaced the (pitched) African slit drums with unpitched woodblocks (sounding some three octaves higher than the log drums), and the tuned tomtoms with untuned low drums plus a pair of bongos. ... in Abbado's case, dynamics have been disregarded entirely.

That's simply bizarre.


Yes, that blurb explains a lot. Interesting.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 07, 2011, 11:15:35 AM
Rubber bands stretched over a cigar box. Cool!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 10, 2011, 08:21:38 AM
17.35
Stockhausen: Solo for melody instrument with feedback
(special electro-acoustic apparatus, 4 assistants /
4 x 2 loudsp., mixing console / sound proj.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FptxMM1KL.jpg)

Stockhausen's Solo has a fundamentally different character from the three works for trombone already mentioned, although the technical means so far described can also be applied to this piece. Following strictly prescribed musical material and rules of composition, the soloist produces one of six possible versions of Solo, which he adapts to the nature of his instrument as well to his personal interpretative capacities. Playing into a microphone, his performance is recorded, and via a "playback" system the recorded material returns through loudspeakers, after a time lag, superimposed, transformed and where necessary distorted. Still playing  the soloist has to react in various ways to the material when it reappears. (He must either make chords or blocks with the material he hears  or play contrapuntally with it.) The strong impression of tension which is provoked by the procedure of the soloist reacting to himself is obviously lost on a grammophone record. For this reason, as well as to remedy the lack of the atmosphere created by the audience at a live performance, Stockhausen had the idea of providing a commentary on the recording of Solo; this we made together, utilising to this end the second Region of his work Hymnen. In the performance of Hymnen five musicians provide a commentary on the tape reproduced through the loud-speakers. In the present version of Solo the roles are reversed: the soloist's playing is commented on with the help of a tape. - Vinko Globokar

(http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01350/WEB-globokar08r_1350441cl-4.jpg)

The games that Vinko Globokar’s musicians play (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/music/the-games-that-vinko-globokars-musicians-play/article2263321/)
TORONTO — From Thursday's Globe and Mail
Published Wednesday, Dec. 07, 2011 5:00PM EST


[...]

He is, in a way, a maker of games for musicians, though he seldom relaxes the rules to allow extended improvisation, which appears in only three or four of his roughly 120 pieces. Improv only works when people really know how to do it, he says, and even then, it’s more fun to impose rules that challenge their performance habits. The improvised part of Friday's double-bill program at the Music Gallery, in which Globokar will play, won’t sound like anything heard at a jazz club.

He remains a determined modernist – and a lonely one. The performing groups he formed in the late sixties disbanded long ago; colleagues such as Karlheinz Stockhausen, Mauricio Kagel, Gyorgy Ligeti and his former teacher Luciano Berio, are dead. Postmodernism, or “the reinvention of Mahler,” as he calls it, holds no attraction for him.

“I was part of a group of friends, an avant-garde that was based on risk,” he says. “The idea, collectively, was to find something new. But even if you didn’t find this end result, it was still okay, because you were exploring ideas. That kind of collective thinking we did has disappeared.”

Now, he has to do the collective thinking by himself, and write it down for other people to discover and inhabit. It’s an adventure worth sharing.

[...]

Poor guy. Yea, I sure wouldn't to be the last Avant standing,... what a lonely proposition, especially with such friends as he had, haha! Ahh,... the good 'ole days...

You can count me in that club,... I'm sad too. :(
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 18, 2011, 09:30:00 AM
I've been listening quite a lot to that Eotvos Gruppen/Punkte disc.

There's a point in Punkte (16:30) where there is a trumpet plunger sound that really sticks out for me.

I might be getting a grip on Gruppen.

oh, what's the use?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 22, 2011, 07:41:40 PM
Sheer enjoyment, exploration, discovery (self & otherwise) ..

There are 2 DVDs available for deeper insights into Punkte (rehearsal, performance, talk) ..

(http://www.stockhausen-verlag.com/CD_Covers_html/Verlag-DVD-Disk_28.jpg)

Stockhausen Films : DVD No. 28
Stockhausen conducts PUNKTE for orchestra ( Archive No. 37 / 1 )
( Colour film by Suzanne Stephens )
Duration: 57 minutes
Contents: Dress rehearsal of PUNKTE for orchestra on February 5th 1993 with the symphony orchestra
of the Hessen Radio, Frankfurt, conducted by Karlheinz Stockhausen )
Language: German

(http://www.stockhausen-verlag.com/CD_Covers_html/Verlag-DVD-Disk_29.jpg)

Stockhausen Films : DVD No. 29
Stockhausen conducts PUNKTE for orchestra ( Archive No. 37 / 2 )
(Colour film by Suzanne Stephens )
Duration: 78 minutes
Contents: Two performances of PUNKTE for orchestra on February 5th 1993 with the symphony
orchestra of the Hessen Radio, Frankfurt, conducted by Karlheinz Stockhausen and concert talk by
Stockhausen
Language: German

In the multi-media section they have short clips from these films & others .. (tho the section still needs tweaking)

http://www.stockhausen-verlag.com/



Enjoyment, pleasure, fulfillment. May not seem like much to serious people but it is more than most people ever get from spouses, jobs, life - or serious people

I didn't mean 'what's the use with this music?', but I just didn't know what to make of Punkte. I like it, don't get me wrong, but it's a dark and strange slab of music that I need some help with. I mean, it was revised again only recently.

I'm liking the whole Eotvos disc more and more,... getting used to the particular recording (not saying anything either way)...

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 09, 2012, 07:47:36 PM
I was really impressed with Isherwood in Varese, such a deep voice. I wonder how he sounds here?


Also, I know I haven't been paying particular eagle eye here :-[ :-[ :-[, but since I notice your trawl is quite uniformly solos and duos and such, what might be your favorite 'Late' pieces for a full, and varied, orchestra, like a compliment to that Eotvos disc?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 20, 2012, 09:33:26 AM
CD34C - Luzifers Tanz .. its for 3 soloists and huge symphonic band consisting of 10 polyphonic grps.

CD100 .. Zehn Sternzeichen, Jubilee ..

CD73 Hoch-Zeiten for 5 orchestral sections.

CD58 Lichter-Wasser for soprano, tenor, orchestra with synthesizer.

CD64 Stop und Start[/i] for 6 instrumental groups.

CD30B Michael's Reise for trumpet & orchestra.

CD40A Course of the Years for tenor, bass, actor-singer, modern orchestra, tape.

CD47 Hymnen 3rd Region electronic music with orchestra. Mixtur 2003 for 5 instrumental groups, 4 sine-wave generator players, 4 sound mixers with 4 ring modulators, sound projectionist.

CD52 Orchestra Finalists for orchestra & electronic music.

+ Ylem

+ Inori




...thanks...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on February 05, 2012, 07:43:01 AM
snyprrr .. just a heads up on a wonderful opportunity to get the awesome Lucifer's Dance  (& the rest of the opera) for dirt cheap !

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31SsKIpGwKL.jpg)

Samstag aus Licht (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000E409/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used), 4 disc set for 14.98.

It says in the description that the cds have "something WEIRD on top of the cds that does not effect play". :o Could it be medicated goo?? ;) Anyway, yes, that is tempting, thanks.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on February 05, 2012, 05:10:05 PM
It says in the description that the cds have "something WEIRD on top of the cds that does not effect play". :o Could it be medicated goo?? ;)

I suspect I know what he's talking about. Samstag was an early CD release. At that time it was popular for labels to place a piece of foam between the CD and the jewel case. As the years went by, that foam would slightly liquefy and stick to the top of the CD. The copies of Samstag in the Helsinki public library are affected by this.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: UB on February 07, 2012, 06:05:02 AM
Thanks for sharing this James. I have always been amazed how well he integrated the sounds of the helicopters into the sound of the quartet playing. It is one of my favorite Stockhausen works.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Est.1965 on February 07, 2012, 06:16:15 AM
It is in German.  Must brush up on my German.
I like the Arditti Quartet.  They are always challenging themselves.  It may be that through them, I come to understand and like Stockhausen.  Thank you for this.  The SQ starts about 65:45 in this documentary.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Est.1965 on February 07, 2012, 07:21:52 AM
Thanks James.  I cannot buy it yet as Stockhausen is still a shot in the dark for me, so I have decided to print the translation and watch what looks like a very interesting documentary.  If I am thoroughly interested in Stockhausens creations as a result, I may post in this thread again.  This will be an interesting experiment for me!   :D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 18, 2012, 03:56:34 PM
I'm not a particular admirer of Karlheinz Stockhausen; his music certainly sounds higly expressive and innovative, but it's quite different from that one I'm used to listen and I still find it rather strange (especially his electronic music).
Klavierstücke, Kontakte and Zyclus are pretty good though, I appreciate them a lot.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on February 19, 2012, 02:15:01 PM
New Album ..

(http://www.stockhausen.org/dc_101_cover.jpg)

CD 101
IN FREUNDSCHAFT (IN FRIENDSHIP) Editions
for recorder
for bassoon
for horn
for double bass


Have you heard a variety of instruments for this piece? Is there one that works better than others? I have clarinet (Damiens) and trombone (Lindberg),... I just haven't yet gotten too excited about this piece,... also curious about the best presentation of Scelsi's Maknognan.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on February 26, 2012, 10:29:40 PM
I listened to some YT the other day:

Luzifer's Abschlied (sic?; 50 mins.): Honestly? This sounded like KS was jealous for not getting The Exorcist soundtrack, haha! I imagine he totally puts Penderecki to shame here in the utter creepiness department, sounding like KP's 'devil' music (in my 'mind') with infinitely more detail. This might actually qualify as bedtime music (seriously, for me), but I do No, on second thought! :o ;D Still, I'd really need to be in the 'mood' for music of such... dense creepiness (I mean, really, c'mon, it does sound like KS has taken pains to see that no one's... NO ONE'S >:D

... :o...

'adoration of lucifer' :o :o :o would top HIS :o :o :o

I mean, I'm not knockin' the piece, I'm just sayin... I'm not calling it 'devil music' to be provocative,... it IS devil music either way you slice it,... right?... so... it 'sounds', to me ;D,,, and probably...mm... anyone I'd play it for :-*... I just know they'd go, Ooo,.. that's creepy.

I'm just saying that that is what would happen.


Listen, sorry, it's late, and I feel like I'm typing through a tube in my sinus cavity. Night. 8)



Oh, and I listened to the... Heaven's Door(?), for percussion,... which sounds like an actual door is the only instrument being played. Am I right? (Klang, haha) ;D Either way, it makes 'Rebonds' sound like the opposite of the word 'austere', haha! Surely there must have been a visual element missing, for it was a bit long I thought, and didn't seem like it was actually primarily concerned... oh, I'm fading fast here, it's 1:30...zzZZZZzzzz....zzZZZZzzzz....zzzZZuh,...Oh!,...night! 8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: UB on March 03, 2012, 09:13:06 AM
Hi James - it is good to see you keep this thread going because I think Stockhausen needs to be heard and explored.  When I first came upon Stockhausen 30 or so years ago I found some of his music - Mikrophonie I and II for example - completely beyond my comfort zone (and they still are) , while works like Punkte, Kontra-Punkte, and later Gruppen kept me trying more of his music. I think the Helicopter Quartet is probably my favorite of his works but then the very late pieces of Licht also really work for me.

I was wondering what three CDs you would suggest to me today if I was coming new to Stockhausen and was open to giving his music a try. It would be good to know why you chose the particular CDs and works.

Thanks...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Oclock on March 06, 2012, 10:54:00 AM
Hi!!

I am a Stockhausen (and contemporary music in general) music fan from Spain...

This is my first post and I only want add one date more to Stockhausen's 'Mittwoch' this next summer...

22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th August: London Voices
Stockhausen Mittwoch (Michaelion)
Birmingham Cultural Olympiad

http://www.nicolabeckley.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Diary.html

Regards!!!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on March 07, 2012, 07:51:44 AM
Hi!!

I am a Stockhausen (and contemporary music in general) music fan from Spain...

This is my first post and I only want add one date more to Stockhausen's 'Mittwoch' this next summer...

22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th August: London Voices
Stockhausen Mittwoch (Michaelion)
Birmingham Cultural Olympiad

http://www.nicolabeckley.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Diary.html

Regards!!!

Welcome! ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Oclock on March 13, 2012, 05:04:46 AM
Well....  :o :o

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/mar/13/stockhausen-opera-helicopters-birmingham?newsfeed=true

Stockhausen opera to be staged in full for first time – helicopters and all


Birmingham Opera Company performance of Mittwoch aus Licht for London 2012 festival will have flying soloists and two choirs

It is not the headache of four separate helicopters carrying string quartet performers that is keeping Graham Vick awake at night. It is more, he confessed, the strain of 11 flying string and woodwind soloists that is exercising his mind ahead of the first performance of one of the world's most unusual operas.

Birmingham Opera Company has announced it is to stage one of the most challenging operas ever written, Karlheinz Stockhausen's five-hour epic Mittwoch aus Licht (Wednesday from Light), during the London 2012 festival.

Featuring real helicopters, two choirs, octophonic sound, numerous musicians, the Radio 1 DJ Nihal and requiring two separate performance halls, this will be the first time that all six parts of the opera have been staged together.

Vick, the company's longstanding artistic director, said the project was driven by "the vision that opera must go beyond the opera house and beyond the enclosed existing opera audience".

He said the challenge was exciting and enormous. "Stockhausen's vision is utterly beguiling, seductive, irresistible and fabulous. He is one of the great originals of all time – a dreamer, a visionary, a man who dared to believe that things were possible which I have no idea how to achieve."

The "bewilderingly difficult" piece will be performed four times between 22 and 25 August, starting at 4pm each day at the Argyle Works, a former factory in Digbeth, Birmingham.

Funded by Arts Council England (ACE) and Birmingham city council, it will be a highlight of this summer's London 2012 festival, the showcase finale of the Cultural Olympiad, which aims to present once-in-a-lifetime arts and culture performances.

Wednesday from Light easily ticks the once-in-a-lifetime criteria. Its finale, in which a string quartet perform in separate helicopters – so the whirring blades become part of the music – has been performed in isolation, but never as part of a complete performance. Vick said the DJ Nihal would be part of the helicopter segment in the role Stockhausen intended for himself, as a kind of moderator or commentator.

Vick said the work, with its spiritual themes, exploring concord and co-operation, was ideal for the Olympic year.

Kathinka Pasveer, who worked with Stockhausen for 25 years and helps to look after his legacy as director of the Stockhausen Foundation for music, said the composer had longed to see the entire work performed, right up to his death in 2007. "His vision for Mittwoch is a musical expression of global harmony of love and collaboration in a united humanity. We are delighted and grateful that his dream is now becoming a reality."

There will be much that is strange for any audience, let alone fans of experimental, genre-breaking new music. Vick said the helicopters, which the audience will see on screens, were probably one of the most straightforward elements. "Imaginatively the biggest challenge is the orchestra soloists because each soloist flies; comes closer, goes away and has to be synchronised in a very complex way. It is the thing at the moment that is keeping me most awake."

Birmingham council's leader, Mike Whitby, said the staging was one part of "the compelling and eclectic range of arts, sport and culture which is reverberating within this culturally dynamic city".

The helicopter segment will also be available for all to see through The Space, a new digital arts platform that is a collaboration between ACE and the BBC.


Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on March 14, 2012, 06:56:41 AM
I'm not going to say that an EMP or sumptin' wouldn't turn that concert into a KS worthy event. ;) A great work of art, after all! :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Oclock on March 14, 2012, 04:30:11 PM
The question is... Which group will rise in the helicopter? Ardittis?  ::)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on March 14, 2012, 07:14:49 PM
With the planners admitting that this will be put on with public funding, but refusing to specify how much, I think we're in for a huge firestorm in the British press (or at least the Comments section of newspaper websites) about how the government is "wasting money on this music no one wants to hear". Some such controversy has accompanied all big Stockhausen performances in the UK, and I have no reason to believe it won't happen again (which is this case will be too bad, because in Holland the Helicopter String Quartet proved appealing to a wide audience that doesn't generally follow contemporary music).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on March 17, 2012, 06:32:59 AM
(http://www.stockhausen.org/mittwoch_websize.jpg)

That is why he prayed daily

because its message is about love and collaboration and shows a united humanity dealing with problems common to every single member of this human family.
 

Hear, mankind: in our part
– voice of the Intuition–
it says to sing love forever
through solicitous formula music
in praise of GOD:
HU!


So, what religion was KS?? I mean, frankly, it seems like he spent a loooot of time concerned about 'Lucifer'. Is he one of those who thinks that 'Lucifer' is God and 'Jehovah' is the devil? Is this just Urantia?

It's just that I hear this type of Utopian stuff from dotty old ladies who have no solid teaching. It's all this 'hopey changey' stuff that I think got us where we are now (what kind of 'work of art' do you think KS would declare the mortgage backed securities fraud?).

'Light', itself, is what the Freemason seek,... the phrase 'more Light', and so on,...

Is this just KS's The Magic Flute?


Signed,

The Church Lady ;D


Sorry, I'm sure I'll get a firestorm here, but, I guess.... what's my point?,... what is it that KS is missing from his worldview? Probably a real 'Savior'?

Ack, it's too early,... alright, I'll Post and take the heat. :(
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: canninator on March 17, 2012, 11:08:22 AM
I've signed up for notifications.  Even Birmingham is not enough to keep me away from this. Been playing Samstag and Montag today to get me all worked up (although I suspect I may be peaking too early).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on March 17, 2012, 01:27:19 PM
I've signed up for notifications.  Even Birmingham is not enough to keep me away from this. Been playing Samstag and Montag today to get me all worked up (although I suspect I may be peaking too early).

And Mittwoch is sonically quite different than the other days (sparse, atmospheric, more musique concrète than electronic music). I would travel to the UK to attend the premiere, but London is going to be brutal cost-wise because of the Olympics.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on March 17, 2012, 08:32:20 PM
Hop aboard old lady ..

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/3/16/1331908834077/stockhausen-helicopter-007.jpg)

Trust me, I'm not knocking the spectacle of it all. (btw- that IS a cool scary helicopter!) If ever one were ever to drop one more hit of four way windowpane,... I'm sure you'd get KS's approval, no? :D

Vut I just prefer to sit on the Helikopter Quartet sidelines. I like the glissandos of the frenetic middle section, but I just find the whole thing Babylonian. Vanity of Vanities, All is Vanity! 8)

But, once again, I agree,...what can stand to the sheer scope of this event?



I still say God will be wroth and an earthquake will swallow the opera house whole! ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: canninator on March 17, 2012, 11:06:19 PM
Interestingly, my nine year son's favourite composer is Stockhausen. He is completely drawn into the sound world and, in my completely uncontrolled experiment, I like to think he is yet to be contaminated by the otherwise conventional musical structures he will be exposed to every day of his life (and piano lessons). Today he is enjoying Hymnen although he did announce it was no Spiral.

I am trying to finger Teirkreis for guitar at the moment but ease of playing means dropping some of the notes in the harmony. This is permissible according to KHS in the score rubric but not satisfactory. There is a super version for lute duo available that has to be my favourite.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: springrite on March 18, 2012, 05:38:36 AM
I was just telling a friend the other day that if there is only one more opera I could see LIVE, I'd pick Wednesday from LICHT. Now that it is here, I am afaid that it lies outside of my budget. What a shame, though!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on March 30, 2012, 08:56:19 PM
James, do you have the 'string trio'? How is that?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on April 06, 2012, 04:03:06 PM
It's a beautiful work. I have a live broadcast recording of it, I haven't bought the Verlag CD (yet).

(http://www.stockhausencds.com/CD_Covers_html/89.jpg)

Samples here > http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD89.htm

The String Trio (Hoffnung "Hope") is a work that is generated from musical material of the 5th hour of the Klang cycle .. one in  a series (hrs. 6 to 14) of works that are 'trios'  that are spawn of that 5th hour (but ultimately the whole cycle is generated from a 24 note, all-interval, 2 octave series) .. it's all very non-idiomatic writing Art of Fugue-ish in concept. Tonal looping smooth melodic feel with many, many tranformations, it's about the raw notes/rhythms rather than the sonic 'clothing'. I like listening to them.

That's very smooth. I like this the best so far,... very 'tonal', yet there is virtuoso, very much Bach-ish but all KHS. Closest it reminds me of is Goeyvaarts (in the soft 'Dutchness'), though more involved.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on April 12, 2012, 07:45:52 PM
Hey James did Stockhausen actually compose anything that didn't require an electronic piece of crap? Second question in two parts: did he actually compose anything that's melodically beautiful or is basically his entire output just a bunch of hot circuits air.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: eyeresist on April 12, 2012, 08:12:07 PM
Haven't you heard of Stimmung?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on April 12, 2012, 08:23:37 PM
Are you angry? You seem so.

Stockhausen is one of the main composers of the 20th/21st century; electronics, electroacoustics, technology .. all important door opening musical realities that are widely used & explored these days .. you should really explore his massive output to bring yourself up to speed, enrich/broaden your mind & ears .. and find out the answers to the naive questions you ask.

No, I'm not angry. I just asked some simple questions which apparently weren't answered. So I'll just leave it as he worked in a completely inaccessible medium where you have to have some obsession with technological advances in music in order to understand or comprehend. So I guess a machine going "Bleep...bleep...bleep" wasn't enough for Stockhausen. :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on April 13, 2012, 01:49:20 AM
Did Stockhausen actually compose anything that didn't require an electronic piece of crap?

Come on, you know the answer to that is yes.

Quote
Second question in two parts: did he actually compose anything that's melodically beautiful...

If anything, the problem for me with Stockhausen's post-1970 output is that it is too melodic, too pretty, to the detriment of other aspects of music. Tierkreis is nothing but one melody after another. Some of the LICHT scenes are a fairly simple melody that just goes on and on.

Looking back, the unmelodic Stockhausen -- either Darmstadt pointillism, random improv, or a swirling electronic mess -- is actually the shorter part of his career.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on April 13, 2012, 07:35:56 PM
Tierkreis and Licht clearly illustrate his musical prowess in spades .. he could take a motif, theme, melodic phrase, tune, contrapuntal snapshot, ((heck .. a single tone, chord, sine-wave, radio signal, click .. practically anything from the entire firmament of sound)) ..and from these smallest of musical seeds - generate and compose an almost inexhaustable OVERWHELMING diversity of music that exhausts & unifies all the parameters in a very highly distinctive, refined and musical way.

 ::)

Said Stockhausen's biggest fan.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: canninator on April 13, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
Hey James did Stockhausen actually compose anything that didn't require an electronic piece of crap? Second question in two parts: did he actually compose anything that's melodically beautiful or is basically his entire output just a bunch of hot circuits air.

The 2CD Complete Edition vol 28: Music for Flute has some stunningly beautiful music. Admittedly, one piece Kathinka's Gesang does contain electronics but is all the more effective for it.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 18, 2012, 10:39:23 AM
Karlheinz Stockhausen composed his cycle LIGHT, an opera for each day of the week. End of June 2013 in Munich will be the German premiere of his opera SATURDAY - in three programs, in seven events. As Hopp says, the opera blends well into the "Wagner" year, as Stockhausen's opera cycle is often seen as a continuation of the musical theater by Richard Wagner.

By Richard Wagner, really? It sounds quite interesting!! ;D

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 19, 2012, 11:30:50 AM
When Stockhausen first started composing he was very heavily influenced by Webern (Webern was largely responsible for reducing most of the traditional musical parameters to intervallic relationships; so, basically a music built on the relationship between two sounds.), and his idea to take these ideas forward was actually to compose the sounds themselves. This led to much of his pioneering work with electronic music. One could write several doctoral theses on the significance of Stockhausen in different areas of music, but suffice it to say that he made break-through after break-through, revolutionizing the worlds of aleatoric music, spatial elements (he was one of he pioneers of the surround-sound we're all now so accustomed to, for one small example), formula composition, instrumental theater, etc. LICHT alone solidifies his genius to just about anyone who has taken the time to get to know it.

I understand; thanks for the explanation, James. :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Scion7 on May 04, 2012, 04:35:24 PM
Desert island music!

Leave it on the island, speed away in the boat.

  ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on May 04, 2012, 04:43:44 PM
Desert island music!

Leave it on the island, speed away in the boat.

  ;D
You might have just come up with a desert island quote there...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Scion7 on May 05, 2012, 04:11:38 PM
^ that vid's pretty 'orrible - I see he hasn't changed much over the decades.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 05, 2012, 09:32:28 PM
I'd like to know what you think about Klavierstuck XI (VS) Boulez Sonata No.3. Both are each Composers' last word in the '50s.

Boulez seems to me to have more freedom? Does KS sound more... inextricable?

Perhaps I have a very delicate Boulez on DG contrasted with a much more atomic Kontarsky? I'd really love some honest opinions,... I haven't yet listened enough to matter,... but, I think I just 'like' the Boulez better. Perhaps I'm not comprehending KS's longer piano works. Boulez makes his architecture clear in No.3 (I mean for the listener, who can follow 'tracks', or isolate), where XI is 11mins. in one long movement.

Maybe this is a French/German thing? ??? :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 06, 2012, 05:30:34 AM
I'd like to know what you think about Klavierstuck XI (VS) Boulez Sonata No.3. Both are each Composers' last word in the '50s.

I like them both very much; I would say the Klavierstück XI definitely sounds 'rougher' than Sonata No. 3, but then in my opinion Boulez has overall a keener ear for sonority than Stockhausen had (some excellent pieces notwithstanding e.g. Klavierstück VII, Kontakte and a few others).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 06, 2012, 07:34:27 AM
I think I still have the scan files I made from my copy of the score of Klavierstück XI (scanned so that I could reassemble the score following the sequence of fragments in the Kontarsky recording). I can check and post them online somewhere if there is interest.

Also, to be more precise about the performance directions:
- There are six tempi, six modes of attack and six dynamic levels.
- As mentioned in the wiki, the tempo, mode of attach and dynamic level are indicated at the end of a fragment and dictate how the next one should be played. This is the aspect that Boulez had reservations about, since each fragment is therefore not 'stable'.
- Some groups end with a pause indication; that's why there are silences between groups.
- Some groups have the indication that they should be joined with the next, in which case the last note or chord of the group is to be held until the next group starts.
- When a group is arrived at for the second time, any directions or notation in brackets should apply. These are typically octave transpositions but there are also notes to be added or removed. This also changes the 'identity' and 'stability' of a group.
- The piece should be performed at least twice in the same concert; this will evince its mobile nature.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Scion7 on May 06, 2012, 03:41:31 PM
Ahhhh - MUCH more listenable and constructive.  ^

 8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 06, 2012, 04:58:54 PM
(http://www.akg-images.co.uk/_customer/london/mailout/1110/ingi-at-akg/1FK-1664-B1958-3.jpg)

Boulez gazing at Stockhausen's Klavierstück XI deep in thought,
concluded that the piece is inherently unstable, because it's segments
do not remain identifiably the same (in duration, tempo, dymanic, and touch)
from version to version.


(http://catalogue.drouot.com/images/perso/phare/LOT/24/11157/85.jpg)

Pierre Boulez in front of the score to Stockhausen's Klavierstück XI in his
apartment in Paris, 1958

(Photos: Ingi Paris)

Blurry distant view of what the score looks like as a whole, it's 19 fragments ..

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/e/e6/Stockhausen-klavierst%C3%BCck-XI-Score-Scaled.jpg/400px-Stockhausen-klavierst%C3%BCck-XI-Score-Scaled.jpg)


Haha James, good one!! ;) ;D 8)

That's just too funny!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 06, 2012, 05:03:46 PM
The Stockhausen is more celebrated, more successful, more compelling & provocative. If you get on wiki you can read about this one, essentially there is a labyrinth of 19 musical fragments (with a complex & flexible underlying serial/rhythmic/dynamic plan) on a very large page (like 6 columns, 6 rows, i think) and the pianist decides where he wants to start on the spot and makes his choices as he proceeds through the labyrinth, the piece ends when he's arrived at the same fragment for the 3rd time. It's form is "mobile", non definitive; it's progression never "fixed", the performer determines the "final shape". The piece has a fragmentary, contemplative (music pauses as selections are made), spontaneous feel .. and no 2 performances are ever the same, but it depends on the performer and the energy they want to bring to it.

I've always preferred Stockhausen when it comes to music overall, just a much more creative, diverse, exciting vitality & energy .. and that's my honest opinion... though I love the Boulez Sonatas (my favorite Boulez!, did he ever finish the 3rd, least successful one?) .. .

And XI isn't one of the longer piano pieces .. VI, X, XII, XV (these are over 20 minutes) & XIII (is over 30). Then you have XIX for synthesizer and electronic music that hasn't been released or premiered yet, that one would be ca.35 minutes. Here is a good performance of XI .. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/UmCT69F03wo

Listening to this beauty this morning .. (on disc, crystalline sound quality)

http://www.youtube.com/v/Q-niHswSgug


Indeed, the video and Kontarsky are different. I could hear familiar snippets here and there between the two,... the video @7mins., Kontarsky @14mins.,...

I 'had it on' for about 3-4 times, but that was just enough to pick up some patterns from the video (like the trill). OK, so, I didn't know that this piece was as flexible as Boulez, or more so, or what. I'll continue on.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: eyeresist on May 06, 2012, 10:45:55 PM
- As mentioned in the wiki, the tempo, mode of attach and dynamic level are indicated at the end of a fragment and dictate how the next one should be played. This is the aspect that Boulez had reservations about, since each fragment is therefore not 'stable'.

I find this method of randomising approach much more interesting than the structural aspect - it really elevates the element of "interpretation"!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 07, 2012, 07:34:30 AM
I have the magnifying glass and will follow the score! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 07, 2012, 07:59:05 AM
I have the magnifying glass telescope and will follow the score! ;) ;D

Corrigendum ; )
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 08, 2012, 09:02:19 PM
So, I've been going between the KS and the Boulez. After listening to KS a few times, I put in the Boulez 3, and huh, he's certainly using a whole lot less actual notes than KS. Boulez is like making a porcelain vase, whilst KS is written avant-garde piano music.

Still, Boulez has some ear tickling, but I was surprised how laid back it sounded next to the 11th. He seems to be only working with no more than a handful of notes at a time, with no acrobatics of real fireworks. Huh!

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 08, 2012, 09:03:58 PM
Ahhhh - MUCH more listenable and constructive.  ^

 8)

Funny, that's the stuff I don't like.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 10, 2012, 07:29:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/vdIe2CrorMM

That is definitely not my cup of tea.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 10, 2012, 01:49:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/JUmAK9744hA

Zyklus is a very brilliant work, very impressive.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 11, 2012, 07:01:48 AM
What about it, makes you have such a definite conclusion? Just curious.

I suppose I've lived a lifetime with those sounds (not in that piece, but, its influence) and those sounds just don't do anything for me anymore. I hear it, and I hear "the '50s" or "the 60s",... it just reminds me of Italian sci-fi movies,... I mean, I listened to it once, is that not enough to decide?

I suppose I have been totally jaded concerning E/A (at least the old school variety). I simply think any one of us (maybe not ANY) could cobble together something with all the tech we have. We can make in five minutes what took him however long to experiment with. I'm just not going to accept that I can't do that,... well, IF I were to do it, I would rather do something like Xenakis's Persepolis, sounds that all evoke a certain feeling. KS here evokes for me "computer music", and I just get caught up in the CONCEIT and can't "enjoy" the "music".

I don't have to like everything by KS, do I?  I mean, I don't care about The Beatles, so all this "groundbreaking" stuff doesn't faze me (again, I've lived THROUGH all this,... Stockhausen 's influence was right there in the TV commercials, sound effects,... ubiquitous,... so, I hear no trailblazing, I hear only the end result, and, I need MORE salt!!

I would love to take a musical dump, time travel to 1955, and see what Boulez, Nono, and Stockhausen would say. I mean, if a prankster did this, and convinced the Trio of the Emperor's New Clothes,... I wonder how silly one could make them look for accepting a giant musical turd as a Masterpiece. It's just my "theory", but I find it hysterical,... what if one played a later work by Boulez for him in 1955 and he said it was crap?

Oy, what's the point in criticizing E/A? It's taken everything within me to be able to turn over Persepolis (which I use as falling asleep music,... it works!), but Ferrari and KS and the Americans,... I don't know, I just take it ALL for granted. I'm like, yea yea yea ::),... next!

Frankly, all this leads me to E/A porn,... 'The Sounds of Love',... I mean, why didn't any of these guys just GO THERE? Weren't any of these guys approached by the CIA to create music that would disable an enemy (oh,... that was disco ::))?

Is this the kind of E/A a nice young German Catholic writes?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 11, 2012, 10:39:45 AM
I suppose I have been totally jaded concerning E/A (at least the old school variety). I simply think any one of us (maybe not ANY) could cobble together something with all the tech we have. We can make in five minutes what took him however long to experiment with.

The difference is in the art. If I put Xenakis' La Légende d'Eer on, or Stockhausen's Hymnen, I can't help but listen to them from start to finish. What makes them so captivating? It's the art...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 12, 2012, 09:06:15 PM
The difference is in the art. If I put Xenakis' La Légende d'Eer on, or Stockhausen's Hymnen, I can't help but listen to them from start to finish. What makes them so captivating? It's the art...

Well,... I wish the theme to The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly went on for longer than two minutes!

Oh right, we're talking E/A.

Well, I'm arrogant and confident enough to say that the 'art' is a given,... that's why I have to automatically reject 99.6% off the bat. I'll give Stockhausen and Xenakis their due in this area (along with the usual suspects), but I think it is the longer work, such as the two you mentioned

I forget, was it Telemusik we're talking about? I mean, I'll try again, but if it starts to quack like a duck I'm moving on to the next piece. Frankly, that's why I prefer Persepolis to all these other pieces, because it doesn't DEMAND so much of me: it has a consistent 'theme' (the ancient world?), or sound profile throughout, so I can just lounge in the chaos of the multiplicities. With the Telemusik there's just so much stuff,... I'm stressed enough as it is :(, whew! Maybe I just wasn't in the mood?

I agree about the need for 'art' (working standards),... I mean, you all still agree that there aren't MANY works here that you would site, right? KS and IX and a few others (I've only got Varese and Gerhard, which are mixed media), but haven't we had this conversation


oy, it's late, I'm not making sense, goodnight! ;) 8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 19, 2012, 05:18:08 AM
I have my eye on these 2 .. anyone out there have much experience with them?

(http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco4/stockhausen/S46Ax.jpg)

(http://www.stockhausen.org/cover_cd_62_english.jpg)

http://www.stockhausen.org/refrain_2000.html


As usual, those are must-haves once you got the 'classics'.

That version of Spiral is actually quite good, even though I prefer the instruments in CD15 (the one on CD45 is also worthwhile, for an interesting take on the work, with oboe). The sheer scale of the integral version on CD46 is enticing and the booklet is quite thorough in discussing the work.

The 3xRefrain 2000 works quite well also. The sense of scale is, like the integral version of Spiral, awesome (there is material there for a little over one hour of music, with unfolding variety throughout) and sonically it is an improvement over the other versions (although I kind of like the 'organic' feel of the earlier versions--i.e. Wambach's and Kontarsky's).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 19, 2012, 07:34:07 AM
(...) and my listening feels refreshed and more perceptive & sensitive! builds on pattern recognition skills, blows up the imagination .. and makes me ponder many, many musical things .. )

...except John Cage ;D.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 19, 2012, 08:01:42 AM
I said musical things .. not meaningless things.   ;)

Seriously tho .. I gave Cage 'a chance' and explored his output quite extensively a number of years ago.
I have like close to 30 John Cage albums in my library. And just last week I bought the Henning Lohner Mode DVD for $4.99.

 ;D


You'll get there if you don't close your ears ;). For me it wasn't immediate, it actually took a few years (of expanding the imagination, broadening horizons, and suddenly it 'clicked'). Stockhausen, Boulez et al, were much 'easier' in that respect.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 19, 2012, 10:10:19 AM
Nah. To be completely honest with you, I heard Cage immediately .. but I don't hear 'much music' unfortunately. It's much,  much easier  to absorb in comparison. It's skimpier on a musical & compositional level. Cage was an ideas man minus the focus, depth & rigour of a real musician/composer. There is a lot more to Boulez & especially Stockhausen ..

We've been there before, and I won't go into that discussion again.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 19, 2012, 08:47:44 PM
Is this what an AA meeting at GMG sounds like? :D


Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 19, 2012, 09:07:32 PM
What about it, makes you have such a definite conclusion? Just curious.

I DID listen again to Telemusik, and I just can't get into it. All the Eastern influence, and any supposed underlying-ness just doesn't get me beyond the 'This Is Getting On My Nerves' phase,... I know I can't tell where or when I heard this piece, but it was over the course of my years, in all its component sounds,... I mean, I'm sorry, but I think it's a conceit to speak of these Asian drums when, really, you hear a thud (and not a particularly personable one),... or, any of the myriad sounds,... frankly, it was creepy, and made me think of KS at Polanski's for a bloodletting. It's probably his Catholicism that I'm reacting against. When it comes to this type of stuff, forgive me LORD Jesus, but I seem to rather prefer the 'atheist' Xenakis ethos of E/A, but,...

we are just talking about Telemusik. I like Hymnen much better, for what it's worth. I just don't like his 'hardcore' approach. I always sense the luciferian in his music, especially in Telemusik.

And I listened again to Punkt, which I place after BAZ, as the darkest traditiona; 'Viennese' work I've ever heard. Those opening 'trawling' sounds are just so creepy to me. I love the wah wah trumpet at @16 minutes, and I think there's a car horn too, right?,... lots of really interesting sounds.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Scion7 on May 20, 2012, 08:16:57 AM
" What, you may ask, is the point of boiling down to two channels (and four walls) a work for five groups of four musicians placed as satellites to a central percussionist, and intended for performance in the open air during warm summer weather, under a clear, starry sky, preferably at a time of full moon? "

Ha ha ha.
Title: Re: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2012, 10:33:37 AM
Is this what an AA meeting at GMG sounds like? :D

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leon on May 20, 2012, 11:22:46 AM
If anyone lives in the Boston area, they can hear Oktophonie live in 8-channel reproduction (fascinating!) this coming Saturday at Harvard University at 11 pm (yes, that's right, 11 pm).

This is the kind of concert that would definitely get me out of the house. 

I've been reading the early pages of this thread and miss the contributions of the posters like Al Moritz and gomro, but do commend you, James, for your posts.  Stockhausen is a difficult composer, no doubt, and one that many otherwise huge classical music fans find incomprehensible, and as a consequence react with contempt and ridicule.  I understand that.

I first got into his music back in the '60s with a recording of the piano works recorded on DG by Alois Kontarsky, and went on to get as much of his music as I could.  Stimmung was a work I used to listen to a lot.  But, I lost interest in his music after a while and only recently been delving into it again.  I recently acquired all the parts of Licht, and find it fascinating but overlong. 

I am of the opinion that his music is best heard in the theater which is why the announcement of the performance in the above quote caught my attention from the earlier pages.

Carry on, James, and maybe Al and gomro might return to enliven the thread. 

 :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 21, 2012, 06:46:27 AM
I would love to piggy back on someone's Verlag purchase. I could Paypal you 8)...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 01, 2012, 07:59:11 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/BfRknDawEEg

Karlheinz Stockhausen - Mikrophonie I
for tam-tam played by two percussionists, two microphonists, two sound projectionists
Strasbourg, Champs Libres Festival, June 1st 2007
Ensemble Linea
Michael Pattmann, percussionist
Asuka Hatanaka, percussionist
Vincent Roth, microphonist
Thomas Mond, microphonist
Jean-Philippe Wurtz, sound projectionist
Bernd Schultheis, sound projectionist


That did not help after my Rant in the other Thread.

Perhaps some things should just die, or be put down, and four people wrestling with a gong would be at the top of my list. I agree that it HAD to be done at the time, but,... but...

I do think The Trickster has been amongst us, and the emperor wears no clothes.


Also, just to be fair, the falling minor second, denoting pathos, maybe should also be banned?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 02, 2012, 10:16:18 AM
Still bitter I see. (seems you need to get some dude)

SOME!how I'd like to incorporate this into the Whole Discussion. We KNOW Liszt was. We KNOW Brahms wasn't (right?,... though COME ON, he WAS almost just as strikingly handsome as Liszt, so,... huh??,... I'm saying, He COULD have if he wanted,... so, yea, not the same problem, bwahaha).

To be sure, if it's THAT :o obvious, then, I have a New Question:




...mm...




... gimme a minute...





yea,... whew,... y'know,... you RIGHT!, and I have no idea WHICH smiley face to put after that :(,... oy oy oy...

haha, yea, you ARE right,... I AM sure that I would hear Mikrophonie I in a completely different light, haha ;) 8)

you :'(have :'(no :'(idea :'(

mm


mm


mm


I'm gonna go sit in the corner for a minute :-X...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2012, 05:44:31 PM
According to Steve Schick ..

"red fish blue fish is about to release a DVD of the early percussion music of Stockhausen."

on MODE .. which will include Mikrophonie

http://laist.com/2012/06/06/classical_pick_of_the_week_steven_s.php
http://www.moderecords.com/profiles/steveschick.html


OK, I'll give that crew the benefit of the doubt. That should certainly be interesting.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 10, 2012, 07:10:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/gtYAw12dzKY

Erwachen l Awakening (2007)
für Violoncello, Trumpete und Sopransaxophon.
12. Stunde aus KLANG.

Just before the fourth main section of this trio the performers
speak in unison the words "Erwachen in Gott" (Awakening in God)

Hour 6 to 12 from KLANG are all based on material from the 5th Hour, Harmonien.

Dirk Wietheger - violincello
Marco Blaauw - trumpet
Marcus Weiss - soprano saxophone


I just sampled a few places, and hey, this is the kind of stuff I'd like by KS! ;) This and the String Trio are the best (and by 'best' I mean...) I've heard,... and I do like the piece for 2 harps. I really liked this one though! :-*,... reminds me of Mozart's outdoor's type music (but not sounding like it),... I can see this as legit 'space alien uber race' music,... very Classical.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2012, 09:58:27 AM
He certainly knew his Mozart/Haydn well, you can hear this in the various Lichtwerke & even in Klang which is a distillation of things in many ways.

You'll probably really enjoy that album then (see below), and you should check out opus numbers 86-90 .. to see all of what he does with the 5th Hour's musical material.

And you might dig the various Saturday Lucifer Wind Dances, or even the Bassetsu-Trio.

There is a playfulness, humour, lightness of touch and refined classical clarity to much of Stockhausen's late work.
Not to mention a very uplifting, joyful, devotional, spiritual like aura. You always get the sense he's having lots of fun.

(http://www.stockhausen.org/cover_cd_90.jpg)

http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD90.htm


Why do I keep making the connection to Goeyvaarts with Late KS? I have an unsubstantiated theory that Late KS sounds 'Dutch', whatever that means. Listen to Goeyvaarts String Quartet music (Megadisc Classics) and see if you hear KS there,... in any case, I'm 'using' the Goeyvaarts SQs as KS music, so, well,...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
I don't hear that connection. Stockhausen drew from the widest possible resources .. but his music could only have been written by a German, through & through.

It's just that the KS String Trio, and this last Trio, reminded me of nothing else I've heard, other than that disc of KG SQs. Surely KG's music is a lot less 'free' than the KS pieces you've provided, but there is still the concern with, what I'll call, 'elegant design'. The effect, to my ears, is 'pleasing',... as opposed to the more confrontational music of the '60s-'70s,... both the Late KS and KG sound fairly 'normal' to me, like the Mozart (that I guess we're agreeing on), but without the same scales, and rhythms. Still, it seems to me that this music is very,... hate to use the overused term... 'communicative',... as in the word 'commune',... hence, KS sounding to me like 'galactic Bach (or Mozart)'. I thought the Goeyvaarts had the same basic feeling, though, admittedly, much more land locked than the much freer flying Stockhausen.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on June 11, 2012, 01:04:07 PM
The time is drawing nigh for the New York Philharmonic's two performances of Gruppen (part of a very intelligently planned program), June 29-30, and it looks like it's selling well - info here (http://nyphil.org/attend/season/index.cfm?page=eventDetail&eventNum=2569&seasonNum=11&dateRequested=06%2F29%2F2012).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on June 12, 2012, 06:10:07 AM
And more to look forward to this fall, as part of Lincoln Center's White Light Festival:

Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 7:30
Alice Tully Hall

"Cosmic Pulses"
Analog Arts
Stuart Gerber, percussion
Joe Drew, sound projection

Stockhausen: Friday Greeting (New York premiere)
Stockhausen: Heaven’s Door (New York premiere)
Stockhausen: Cosmic Pulses

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2012, 06:32:50 AM
The time is drawing nigh for the New York Philharmonic's two performances of Gruppen (part of a very intelligently planned program), June 29-30, and it looks like it's selling well - info here (http://nyphil.org/attend/season/index.cfm?page=eventDetail&eventNum=2569&seasonNum=11&dateRequested=06%2F29%2F2012).

Gosh, Bruce, if I weren't going to see Dweezil in Rhode Island on the 30th . . . .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 12, 2012, 06:39:32 AM
And more to look forward to this fall, as part of Lincoln Center's White Light Festival:

Tuesday, October 30, 2012, 7:30
Alice Tully Hall

Stockhausen: Friday Greeting (New York premiere)
Stockhausen: Heaven’s Door (New York premiere)
Stockhausen: Cosmic Pulses

Cool stuff, will try to be there. Cosmic Pulses live is probably the only way to truly enjoy it, and Friday Greeting is my favorite part from Freitag. Heaven’s Door is a good bonus.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 16, 2012, 04:22:39 AM
WORLD PREMIERE
MITTWOCH AUS LICHT / WEDNESDAY FROM LIGHT

The day of reconciliation and collaboration

MITTWOCH / WEDNESDAY.
An opera by Karlheinz Stockhausen
A commission for the London 2012 Festival, produced by Birmingham Opera Company
August 22nd, 23rd, 24th 25th 2012 at 4pm
Argyle Works, Great Barr Street, Birmingham B9 4EX

Graham Vick will direct the world premiere of Karlheinz Stockhausen’s opera Mittwoch aus Licht for Birmingham Opera Company. Comprising a string quartet performing in helicopters, electronic and acoustic music and a dancing camel, this will be the first time the opera, often thought to be unstageable, has been performed in its entirety.

In August 2012 Mittwoch aus Licht/Wednesday from Light finally hits the stage – or rather a former chemical works in the middle of Birmingham. Internationally acclaimed opera director Graham Vick has assembled an outstanding artistic team with his unique Birmingham Opera Company featuring some 150 performers.

Under the musical direction of Stockhausen’s long-time collaborator, Kathinka Pasveer the line-up includes Birmingham’s Ex Cathedra and London Voices with an array of virtuoso orchestral soloists as well as local performers recruited and trained through the company’s award-winning participation programme. Radio 1 DJ Nihal will act as Moderator.

This landmark event will take place in the extraordinary Argyle Works, a former chemical plant and venue for Birmingham Opera Company’s production of Verdi’s Othello.

Of his monumental achievement Licht, (Light) a cycle of 7 operas, one for each day of the week, Mittwoch (Wednesday) is the only part of the cycle that Stockhausen never saw staged.

“We have individual scenes from Mittwoch aus Licht in very good concert performances. But all attempts to stage Mittwoch aus Licht have not been successful. I do not want the opera performance to be incomplete” -Stockhausen

Even 5 years after his death, the challenge and scale of the piece, in six parts including the Helicopter String Quartet and featuring two choirs, solo instrumentalists, live electronic and acoustic music and a dancing camel, means the piece still awaits its premiere - that is until 22nd August in Birmingham.

Stockhausen: a revolutionary figure in 20th century music. His innovation moved composition into new territory embracing the new technology of electronic music and breaking the barriers between musical genres. His influence permeated pop, rock and electronic music through artists such as Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, The Beatles and, more recently, Björk. His appeal to a very broad young audience sells out the Royal Albert Hall and the Barbican as well as large concert halls in Europe, America and the Pacific Rim.

World Premiere of Mittwoch aus Licht (http://www.birminghamopera.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=112)

Booking for Mittwoch / Wednesday (http://www.birminghamopera.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90&Itemid=119)


So is anyone going to this? I'm in two minds. I love Thursday, but hearing the whole of Friday in the Barbican almost a decade ago was fairly dispiriting. I've never seen such a depressed, bored looking audience leaving a concert.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 16, 2012, 11:26:54 AM
So is anyone going to this? I'm in two minds. I love Thursday, but hearing the whole of Friday in the Barbican almost a decade ago was fairly dispiriting. I've never seen such a depressed, bored looking audience leaving a concert.

The differences between Wednesday, Thursday and Friday suggest it should be worthwhile (I can imagine how Friday in full could be boring). Wednesday is my favorite of the Licht cycle, so if I were in the UK I would definitely go.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 17, 2012, 04:39:24 AM
I doubt anyone from this board will be going ..  are you going, you live there right?

I'm in London, not Birmingham, so travel and hotel costs are another issue...

Still, it's a once-in-a-lifetime (probably) opportunity.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 17, 2012, 04:40:55 AM
Wednesday is my favorite of the Licht cycle, so if I were in the UK I would definitely go.

Hmm, you've got me interested now...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2012, 08:58:56 AM
Karlheinz Stockhausen - FRIDAY GREETING (OUTER SPACE 1/2)

http://www.youtube.com/v/NJfI_wwLbQs

The ELECTRONIC MUSIC with sound scenes was realised in 1992 and 1994 in the Studio for Electronic Music of the WDR Cologne realized. Karlheinz Stockhausen (realization and bass voice) Simon Stockhausen (synthesizer, sampler) Kathinka Pasveer (soprano-voice) Volker Müller (sound engineer) Gertrude Melcher (sound technician).

The electronic music of Friday from Light may also be project 8-track by itself without the sound scenes, either uninterrupted (duration 145 minutes) or in two parts with an intermission. It is then entitled Outer Space. The world premiere of Outer Space took place on June 17th 1995 during the Holland Festival, produced by the Ijsbreker at the planetarium in Amsterdam. A second performance followed on June 18th. During the 8-track playback of the electronic music I had the firmament of Amsterdam projected, rotating at the slowest possible speed of one rotation per 12 minutes.

In the context of a complete performance of Friday from Light, the electronic music (without the sound scenes) is played back 8-track in two parts: as Friday Greeting - preceding the two acts - simultaneously in the foyer and - softer - in the auditoriu, and as Friday Farewell - following the two acts - in the foyer only.

[...]

Stockhausen - HEAVEN'S DOOR / http://betsillworkshop.com/door.htm

http://www.youtube.com/v/F0WzTcKhTHA

Karlheinz Stockhausen's "Himmels-Tur" (Heaven's Door),
the fourth hour of Klang, for percussion.

[...]

Stockhausen - COSMIC PULSES / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Pulses

http://www.youtube.com/v/7rGbHiJnk4I



I;m going to voice my displeasure over 'Heaven's Door'. I used to think 'Okho', for three djembes, by Xenakis, was a thorn in my side, but,... 30mins. of someone playing, literally, a large wooden door? And, it's just one person?, so you don't even get the 'multiple' thing (in amount of notes at once).

James, are you seriously going to tell me you looooooooooooooooooove this piece? ahhh...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 19, 2012, 06:04:33 AM
More vids on Stockhausen's last percussion work .. Heaven's Door.

http://www.youtube.com/v/uuYQI32Le-s

http://www.youtube.com/v/QcW-qTS2488

Other late percussion works include:
Strahlen
Mittwoch-Formel
Komet
Vibra-Elufa
Nasenflügeltanz


Haven't checked the vids yet,... I do admit that the 'concept' of a percussion  work using a door is brilliant, especially 'Heaven's Door'. However, I would have pictured (in mind) a concept where ALL these souls are trying to get in, so the piece starts with a few knockings, and then as more percussionists enter, the knocking sounds multiply to a extraordinarly thick and rich texture (on only one sound). I suppose that's why I'm disappointed in this 'one man' show: there's no way one person can deliver the amount of notes that would reflect this. But,... now that it's been done,... mm,...

I'm gonna pull out 'Klavierstucke X'...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 19, 2012, 10:30:47 AM
Well, I had a 30min. drive, so I took only Kontarsky for 'X'. Either I'm jaded, or the glissandi didn't register this time. The one note I remember comes at right around 7mins., a resonating chord with one high note. I must express that I've always had a very hard time with the coldness of this cd, or the playing, or the music. Sometimes, as it was here today, I felt like I was being hammered by a 'doctrine'. Sure, there are 'fun' things like the glissandi, but, I have to admit, I wanted to put another cd in starting about half way through. For whatever reason. Kontarsky is pretty brutal, which, certainly, is Composer Approved Playing, but,... it's just such a nice country day out there, and the 'X' was like... totally man... incongruous with the 'life' around me.

So, I can listen to Boulez's Sonatas it seems,... well, to be fair, I like disc1 of the Stockhausen much better, though, I'd like to know how I'd feel about the whole KS if the sonics and performer were different? Kontarsky IS pretty 'hard', no? (and, of course, that's not a criticism!)

And, I only hear the joy in Abbado! :P So there!! ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on June 22, 2012, 12:35:57 PM
Excellent piece by Steve Smith (with great photo) on next week's New York Philharmonic performance of Gruppen (and some other fine music, all spatially designed):

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/arts/music/stockhausens-gruppen-at-park-avenue-armory.html

I'm going on Friday, the first night, and can't wait.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on June 23, 2012, 05:27:04 AM
As a Stockhausen admirer yourself, don't you have the commercial recordings of this stuff .. ? If you did and had absorbed it that way and were familiar with it, you'd probably make up your mind a lot faster on that end of things at least. I can vouch for them positively ..

Wednesday's electronic music is fantastic and will be getting the 5 star treatment/sound projection at this premiere; the choral piece (World Parliament) is one of his best & richest musically .. the Helicopter Quartet has to be seen to be believed (i would think); the soloists of Orchestral Finalists when staged are supposed to be flying through the air above the audience .. the 4th scene (Michaelion) combines many elements musically, absurdist/humorous, very multi-media (as is the whole opera), and ends with a very striking vocal sextet  ..

More details here with regards to staging/scenic aspects : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittwoch_aus_Licht


I've got the recording of the Helicopter Quartet (obviously) and saw Orchestral Finalists at the Queen Elizabeth Hall in November 2008. Might need to investigate the other pieces soon. Cheers for all the info!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on June 25, 2012, 06:36:59 AM

Lucky you, did you get a central seat (totally surrounded by the 3 orchestras) or a bleacher seat/perspective? ...
an individual concert will house 1700 or so seats for this one, (300 or so central seats, 1400 bleachers) and they are all taken,
SOLD OUT (http://nyphil.org/attend/season/index.cfm?page=eventDetail&eventNum=2569&seasonNum=11) for both the 29th AND 30th.


Since I am reviewing the concert, I imagine they will put us in the middle, but I won't know until Friday.

--Bruce
Title: NY Philharmonic "Gruppen" to be broadcast on medici.tv and Q2
Post by: Brewski on June 27, 2012, 08:15:25 AM
For those unable to attend the New York Philharmonic's Philharmonic 360 concerts this weekend with Gruppen, the concert will be streamed on medici.tv and Q2 Music (the contemporary arm of New York's local classical station, WQXR). More info in the press release here (http://nyphil.org/newsroom/files/Armory_Gruppen_Streaming.pdf).

Medici.tv will stream audio and video for 90 days beginning July 8 (free); Q2 Music will have audio-only on July 11 and 14, and then for 30 days after that.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 27, 2012, 08:16:09 AM
Sweet!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leon on June 27, 2012, 08:18:56 AM
I don't think listeners in the US can access medici.tv - the last time I tried it seemed the only countries who had access to the programming were across the pond.  So, I hope Q2 Music is more accommodating.

 :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on June 27, 2012, 08:27:35 AM
I don't think listeners in the US can access medici.tv - the last time I tried it seemed the only countries who had access to the programming were across the pond.  So, I hope Q2 Music is more accommodating.

 :)

Just double-checked and it works fine! (Watching an Andris Nelsons/Berlin Phil/Tchaikovsky concert right now.) The site requires that you register with a password (free) but that seems to be the only small hurdle.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leon on June 27, 2012, 08:29:59 AM
Just double-checked and it works fine! (Watching an Andris Nelsons/Berlin Phil/Tchaikovsky concert right now.) The site requires that you register with a password (free) but that seems to be the only small hurdle.

--Bruce

Good to know! - Maybe I was thinking of something else, thanks for double checking.

 :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on July 03, 2012, 01:13:48 PM
Mr. James has been most diligent in providing reviews of the "Concert in the Round" by the NY Philarmonic.

Here is a link to the July 3rd Wall Street Journal's review:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304211804577502831660444246.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304211804577502831660444246.html?mod=WSJ_LifeStyle_Lifestyle_5)

An excerpt:

Stockhausen's "Gruppen" ("Groups"), written from 1955 to 1957, is one of the seminal works of Modernism, but had never previously been performed in New York. That may have something to do with its extravagant orchestration for a total of 109 musicians divided into three orchestras, each led by its own conductor. Here Mr. Gilbert teamed up with conductor-composers Magnus Lindberg and Matthias Pintscher. In "Gruppen" it is the conductors who take on the most visibly virtuosic parts, as they have to both lead their respective ensembles and coordinate at given points with their counterparts across the hall. Since the ensembles play in different meters and different tempos much of the time, this requires an extraordinary amount of control and flexibility.

"With Stockhausen, what's fascinating is that there's a total sound picture," Mr. Gilbert said last week, sitting in his office next to scores the size of window shutters. "If you use your eyes, you'll understand how the three orchestras have to occasionally synchronize and feel the same pulse and you can see how sometimes the three orchestras diverge. To me this kind of shifting dynamic between the groups is a philosophical thing. It is about how people interact in time and in life. Sometimes you give in, sometimes you insist: there is this constant flow of modes of interaction."

On Friday night, seated at the center of the three ensembles as the composer intended, the aural experience often resembled that of one trapped in the midst of crossing a six-lane highway with sound whooshing by from unpredictable directions. A single brass chord, passed around the hall at ferocious volume, provided a thrilling if rare moment of unity
.


Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on July 20, 2012, 10:30:27 AM
My Seen and Heard International review of the New York Philharmonic's Philharmonic 360 concert, here (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2012/07/20/stockhausen-in-an-enormous-space-and-risk-to-match/).

--Bruce

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 27, 2012, 08:47:29 PM
.. another new recording of one of his best ..

Karlheinz Stockhausen - Zeitmasze, op.5
Arnold Schoenberg - Wind Quintet, op.26



That's certainly interesting, on Albany no less. Huh! I wonder what the timing is,... a third, very short work (by whom?,... Kurtag?),... nevermind,...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on August 11, 2012, 08:45:27 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Yamaha_DX7IID.jpg/800px-Yamaha_DX7IID.jpg)

Yamaha DX7-II synthesizer, similar to one of the synthesizers used in producing Stockhausen's Oktophonie.

(http://dmaudio.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/kurzweil-k2500x.jpg)

Kurzweil K2500X, the synthesizer model used in producing Stockhausen's Mittwochs-Gruss.


Woah, you just triggered a 'flashback' haha! ;) diiiiong ??? ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on August 14, 2012, 02:05:10 PM
I'm assuming you have the Arditti set of string music by Roger Reynolds. I listened to the SQ with electronics, Ariadne's Thread, and must say, it reminded me of the more 'attractive' aspects of the Helikopter Quartet. The electronics at times have the same energy as the helicopter blades. Do you know it?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on August 25, 2012, 06:23:38 PM
Hitler learns that he can't watch the Webstream of Mittwoch Aus Licht

http://www.youtube.com/v/yMiWhZ7-whc

 :'( ;D
 :'( ;D
 :'( ;D

The irony!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on August 28, 2012, 07:00:16 AM
Mark Berry writes about Mittwoch on his excellent blog, Boulezian:

http://boulezian.blogspot.com/2012/08/mittwoch-birmingham-opera-company-25.html

--Bruce

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on September 08, 2012, 05:08:57 PM
Heard this last night:



To my ears it was only mildly interesting. Gone is the magic and delicacy of the original Tierkreis, and in is the breadth and power of the massive new organ of St. Peter's Cathedral in Cologne, which does sound great and awesome, just not with this music (a much better example is the recent release of Rihm's organ works). I'll give it another listen soon, but with the SV CD24 (with the original version for music boxes) and a couple of other versions from the SV for duo and trio also on my shelf I don't expect to grab this CD again for quite a while.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on October 15, 2012, 05:57:14 AM
Karlheinz Stockhausen "Leo" performed by CLOUD LUDUM
live at Berklee Performance Center

http://www.youtube.com/v/cb1XbSee_aM

Leo by Karlheinz Stockhausen
Arranged by Olga Karaseva


Pat Metheny on Paraquat Quaaludes?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on October 18, 2012, 05:07:51 PM

------------
Georges Aperghis - "Quatre pieces febriles" for Piano and Marimba (1995)
Heinz Holliger - "Romancendres" for Cello and Piano (2003)
Karlheinz Stockhausen - "Freude" for Two Harps, the Second Hour of "Klang" (2005)[/size]


[/font]

How many geeks in the world like me who think this is a great date night recital? I know, I know...

I would want my piece played alongside this group. That right there is all I'm looking for in a night, that kind of programming, just really common sense and no nonsense. Bravo!!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Marc on November 07, 2012, 12:48:54 PM
From the cycle Aus den sieben Tagen:

Treffpunkt (arrangement for organ).
Klaas Hoek, organ.

http://www.mediafire.com/?fr21xdo3jie4uxo
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 09:04:15 AM
When I started to compose, after the war, there were many different directions in musical research which had been prepared by the great masters Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Bartók, Stravinsky, Varèse. I had to go to the roots of their individual work, and find an underlying unity. It fell to me to synthesize all these different trends for the second half of the century, perhaps in a similar way that Heisenberg, in the first half of the century, had the role of bringing together the discoveries of Planck and Einstein in atomic physics. -Stockhausen

(from the lecture Musical Forming filmed by Allied Artists, London, 1971)


Of course, this was coming from a guy who made a career of making music that goes: bleep, poop, thump, screech, fart.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on November 20, 2012, 09:43:54 AM
Of course, this was coming from a guy who made a career of making music that goes: bleep, poop, thump, screech, fart.

uh... that's bleep, BLOOP!! >:D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 09:56:07 AM
uh... that's bleep, BLOOP!! >:D

Ah, yes, my mistake. ;) :D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 10:14:32 AM
;D

One only needs to hear one Stockhausen work to know that the guy was a charlatan. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 20, 2012, 11:09:44 AM
One only needs to hear one Stockhausen work to know that the guy was a charlatan. Just my two cents.

I've noticed that your musical appreciation for later 20th century composers is fairly limited.  Earlier this week you referred to a piece by Salvatore Sciarrino as "gimmicky" and now Stockhausen is a charlatan.  You would do well to curb your need to denigrate that which you fail to appreciate and be satisfied with merely saying it is not for you.

 :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 12:03:09 PM
I've noticed that your musical appreciation for later 20th century composers is fairly limited.  Earlier this week you referred to a piece by Salvatore Sciarrino as "gimmicky" and now Stockhausen is a charlatan.  You would do well to curb your need to denigrate that which you fail to appreciate and be satisfied with merely saying it is not for you.

 :)

Said the guy who can feel nothing from Vaughan Williams' music. You're such a sad sack. Good luck to you.

By the way, I can like/dislike and say anything about any composer I want to, especially if I have a strong opinion about them. This is a forum after all. I mean nobody stopped you from coming to the RVW thread and giving your opinion, so I can come here any day, any time I want.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 20, 2012, 12:10:49 PM
Said the guy who can feel nothing from Vaughan Williams' music. You're such a sad sack. Good luck to you.

The point is I phrased as "it does not move me";  I did not call him a charlatan.

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 12:13:18 PM
The point is I phrased as "it does not move me";  I did not call him a charlatan.

Even if you did, it wouldn't mean anything to me. That's your opinion.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 20, 2012, 12:21:41 PM
Even if you did, it wouldn't mean anything to me. That's your opinion.

If someone feels compelled to express that kind of opinion ("he's charlatan") about any composer, you're right, it does not mean anything to fans of the composer.  However, it does reflect poorly on the speaker (imo).

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 12:27:49 PM
If someone feels compelled to express that kind of opinion ("he's a charlatan") about any composer, you're right, it does not mean anything to fans of the composer.  However, it does reflect poorly on the speaker (imo).

Again, your opinion.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 12:51:02 PM
"fairly limited" is an understatement .. we don't need to say much here; the fact that he shows up in these threads on a continuous basis offering his weightless floating "opinion" doesn't matter, just carry on ..

Yeah, it's true that late-20th Century music is much my bag, but in the process I've enjoyed, and continue to praise, Lutoslawski, Part, J. Adams, Reich, Ligeti, Xenakis, Dutilleux, Kurtag, a few Schnittke works, Gubaidulina, Sculthorpe, MacMillan, Norgard, Lindberg, Somers, Tippett, among others. I haven't explored all the music of the late 20th Century. I mean I've finally made a sizable dent in the early 20th Century (my favorite period of classical music). I've bitten quite a chunk out of the Romantic Era as well.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 20, 2012, 02:48:41 PM
Said the guy who can feel nothing from Vaughan Williams' music. You're such a sad sack. Good luck to you.

Amazing how you take criticism personally, and devolve to insulting the person and ad hominem attacks.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 03:09:44 PM
Amazing how you take criticism personally, and devolve to insulting the person and ad hominem attacks.

Considering I don't like the member I insulted, it shouldn't be that surprising that I attacked him.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 20, 2012, 03:18:24 PM
Considering I don't like the member I insulted, it shouldn't be that surprising that I attacked him.

You understand that is childish, don't you?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 03:21:09 PM
You understand that is childish, don't you?

You understand that this is an Internet forum, right? This isn't real life. In person, I would probably never even talk to this member. I can smell a rat a mile off.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 20, 2012, 04:12:22 PM
Back to the topic of this thread -

Mantra



Originally written for the Kontarsky duo, this new recording by  Rosalind Bevan and Yvar Mikashoffis is really very good.

Stockhausen's Mantra was composed in 1970. It was the first piece to be based on the German composer's formula technique, which subsequently went on to inform all of his later compositional output, most expansively in the Licht opera cycle. This strictly-conceived approach to composition arose after a freer period during the sixties when Stockhausen experimented with open forms, such as the 'intuitive music' of the Stockhausen Group, a touring band who performed works by the composer the scores of which were sometimes limited to a short written text or a structural outline. With Mantra, presumably having grown tired of such liberties, Stockhausen returned to a controlled approach.

Mantra is scored for two pianists, calling for a third person as sound projectionist. Throughout, the pianos are subjected to electronic processing in the form of ring modulation, the pianists now and again also striking crotales and woodblocks to enliven the musical texture and create fissures in the piano discourse. The impression in performance is theatrical, the audience witnessing a duel between the pianists. The effect given to the sound by the ring modulation ranges from robotic to luscious, the music sometimes sounding as if heard from the bottom of the ocean, sometimes as if from inside a metal bowl.

The formula technique here works as follows. At the opening there is a bald statement of a thirteen note series, each note of which is assigned a dynamic and a characteristic musical quality (for example, 'regular repetition', 'accent at the end', and so on). The work that follows is made up of a sequence of thirteen statements of this series, over the course of which the series progressively grows longer and more elaborate, and each of which statements explore one of the different musical qualities. The large-scale form of the work in the end corresponds to the small-scale thirteen-part schema.

You don't need to follow these technical niceties, though, to enjoy the piece. Whatever cynicism you might have as to such theoretical pretensions, this work is undoubtedly thrilling. Though Mantra is decisively of its time, the lineage it shares with the Austro-Germanic tradition of piano theme and variations, the venerable examples of Bach and Beethoven shining forth, is never far away.


This quote is taken from a review of a different recording (http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-mantra-1110.shtml) but offers a basic explanation of the piece.

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 20, 2012, 04:33:19 PM
You understand that this is an Internet forum, right?

That is rich. Way to deflect some constructive criticism. Not worth the bother.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 05:00:25 PM
That is rich. Way to deflect some constructive criticism. Not worth the bother.

What a way to not read the rest of my post. ::)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 20, 2012, 05:25:30 PM
A testament to Stockhausen's creativity and the musicality of his thinking. We desperately need a re-release of the one pictured below ...
Stockhausen himself thought it was the best recording of his op.32 and wanted to obtain the rights to it for release on his own label.

(http://www.tutschku.com/bilder2/CDs/mantra.jpg)

Ellen Corver, Sepp Grotenhuis, Hans Tutschku (sound engineers: Bert Kraaijpoel, Jan Panis; producer: Maarten Hartveldt; digital editing: Chapel Studio Tilburg [Jan Panis, Hans Tutschku, Maarten Hartveldt]) – [1995], Stockhausen: Mantra, Supervised by Karlheinz Stockhausen TMD 950601. This recording received an Edison Classical Award in 1996.


Of course the Kontarksy recording was my first exposure to the work.  That version is also hard to find, besides the Stockhausen site, but is on Youtube in six segments.  The one you mention sounds very interesting and would be nice to hear.

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 20, 2012, 06:26:20 PM
Mantra



I love Mantra, one of the few post-1970 Stockhausen works I truly like, though I have only the Kontarsky duo release on SV.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 20, 2012, 07:10:23 PM
And if you like Mantra .. you'll probably find lots to like within LICHT which will be to your liking, it's full of fantastic music, if you like jazz .. you'll also probably find stuff in LICHT very appealing as well. The follow up cycle .. KLANG has also got really good stuff.

I've got all the parts of Licht but have not come close to hearing all of it.  I've dipped into it from time to time.  I've also read that Mantra was the jumping off point for Licht and most of his music after Mantra.  Still, the pre-1970s stuff is what I keep going back to.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2012, 09:34:29 PM
Well, it's good that James seems to have found a friend to talk with about Stockhausen.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 21, 2012, 08:29:36 AM
I've also read that Mantra was the jumping off point for Licht and most of his music after Mantra.

Yes, Mantra is Stockhausen's "seminal" formula piece (although technically it wasn't the first work he composed based on a melodic formula--that was Formel, some two decades prior) and it marks a radical change in how the composer crafted his works. IMO, after this turning point his output became spotty, though eminently interesting all the same.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 21, 2012, 08:53:59 AM
Yes, Mantra is Stockhausen's "seminal" formula piece (although technically it wasn't the first work he composed based on a melodic formula--that was Formel, some two decades prior) and it marks a radical change in how the composer crafted his works. IMO, after this turning point his output became spotty, though eminently interesting all the same.

What do you think of his zodiac piece, Tierkries?  I've found three different recordings and they all sound very different.  I also have the one released through the Stockhausen Foundation which I need to listen to.

As an aside, after first hearing Mantra I bought a set of crotales.   
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 21, 2012, 09:15:52 AM
What do you think of his zodiac piece, Tierkries?

I like it very much. My favorite is the original version for music boxes, which I have on a CD from the SV, along with the score. I have two other versions on SV CDs that I find quite interesting: A version for clarinet and piano and another one for trio. I am very interested in the version for orchestra, which I intend to get soon. I also have the version for organ released on Wergo, but it didn't really make an impression.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 21, 2012, 09:25:47 AM
I like it very much. My favorite is the original version for music boxes, which I have on a CD from the SV, along with the score. I have two other versions on SV CDs that I find quite interesting: A version for clarinet and piano and another one for trio. I am very interested in the version for orchestra, which I intend to get soon. I also have the version for organ released on Wergo, but it didn't really make an impression.

This recording is on Spotify and has several things I like, including Tierkreis:



Markus S. plays trumpet with organ in a performance of Tierkreis.  Is this the one you referred to ?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 21, 2012, 09:38:40 AM
Markus S. plays trumpet with organ in a performance of Tierkreis.  Is this the one you referred to ?

No, I was referring to the one on Wergo:

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 21, 2012, 09:46:54 AM
This recording is on Spotify and has several things I like, including Tierkreis:



I have all of the works on that CD already on SV releases (bar specific recordings or ensemble combinations), except for the Für Kommende Zeiten excerpts. Spiral and Pole are quite good "free-form" works--the scores and notes on how they were composed are worth reading.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 21, 2012, 09:49:35 AM
No, I was referring to the one on Wergo:



Ah, yes, I remember seeing that one during my search.

Something of an oddity is this one for hurdy-gurdy and fretless electric bass:

(http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/5aa63e1a9428efd43bb1ceb674806db6/2155327.jpg)

I'm listening to it on MOG.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 21, 2012, 01:13:11 PM
How is the Naxos recording of Mantra? I'm considering it as Disc 2 in my cautious re-exploration of Stockhausen.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on November 23, 2012, 05:02:41 AM
This article written by Xenia Pestova, Mark T. Marshall and Jacob Sudol brings together two of my interests: authentic performance practice ("HIP") and late 20th century music, but more specifically, Stockhausen and the work Mantra.

ANALOGUE TO DIGITAL: AUTHENTICIY VS. SUSTAINABILITY N STOCKHAUSEN’S MANTRA (1970) (http://www.pestovameyer.com/pdf/Pestova-Marshall-Sudol.pdf)

This ideas in this article are realized with this recording:



Summary
Quote
The authors introduce and examine the digitization
process of a classic work for two pianos and live
electronics by Karlheinz Stockhausen, Mantra (1970).
Originally written for custom-designed analogue ring
modulators, pianos and percussion, Mantra presents
many challenges to the contemporary performer wishing
to program the work. Problems and solutions are
discussed in this realization of the original electronic
processing in a digital computer-based version. The
authors argue the merits of presenting this rarely
performed piece in an accessible and sustainable format
while taking into account considerations of authentic
performance practice and studying the earlier analogue
technology. Conclusions are drawn based on
preparations for the 2008 tour by the Pestova/Meyer
piano duo (Xenia Pestova / Pascal Meyer)

Quote
Quote
In the preface to the score, the
composer asks for a short-wave radio receiver or a tape
recorder with a volume control and two sets of
“MODUL 69 B”, a ring modulator built especially for
the piece according to Stockhausen’s specifications. The
composer writes: “This piece of equipment has 3
microphone inputs with regulable microphone
amplifiers, compressor, filters, sine-wave generator and
a particularly refined ring modulator” [6].
Each modulator comes with a dial that the pianists
must adjust constantly during performance, controlling
the modulating sine tone frequency that is used to
process the pianos in real-time. The resulting sound is
mixed with the unprocessed piano sound and projected
into the hall, resulting in a highly unusual and rich range
of harmonized and distorted timbres. Due to these highly
specific and outdated technical requirements, Mantra
provides a perfect example of an important work on the
verge of obsolescence. Performances are rare, expensive
and difficult to arrange, and the bulky analogue set-up
contributes to the complications of touring the work,
making it a prime candidate for digitization. This is a
trend that is developing with increasing urgency and
concerns all classic live electronic repertoire.
Quote
Digitization of classic live-electronic repertoire involves
many technical, practical and aesthetic aspects. The
question of authenticity is one of them, and requires the
performers to carefully consider all the available options
prior to embarking on the project, while bearing in mind
the important concept of being “true” to the composer’s
intentions. In a 2006 article, composer Simon Emmerson
introduces the performer to an interesting paradox: the
importance of sustaining and digitizing older repertoire
is paramount today, yet what about “authentic”
interpretation in terms of historical instrument
performance practice? Emmerson presents a parallel
with the early music performance practice debate,
pointing out that the analogue hiss and specific sound
quality are in fact part of the aesthetic appeal of the
music, presented along with the visual aspect of the
technology as an “aura of its time” [2]. Indeed, rather
than being inferior, could it be that aging technology
should be viewed in the same light as period instruments
that can be seen as “different” rather than “limited” in
comparison with their modern counterparts [2]?

To further complicate the situation, Stockhausen
himself is known to have had strong opinions on the
matter, and was very particular in asking the performers
to use very specific instruments and equipment, down to
a certain type of egg timer that resonates in the tam-tam
in Mikrophonie I [7]. In the case of Mikrophonie I,
special analogue filters were designed for the piece, and
according to Stockhausen, computerized simulations
only ensure that “their characteristic sound goes to hell”
[7]. The composer elaborates further: “It is extremely
important to comprehend works, which were born to a
particular historical moment, for their uniqueness. It just
won’t do to be continually discarding everything and
making something different, but rather we should be
preserving things and adding new ones. Anyway, it is
my experience of music that every instrument, every
item of equipment, every technique can produce
something unique, which can be achieved in no other
way. Since that is the case, then we can speak of an
original technique, and thus deal with an original
instrument. If it is imitable, then it is also not worth
much [7].”

It also goes to the idea that music is and ought to remain somewhat ephemeral, something created of a specific time.   I find it fascinating how the two worlds of HIP and experimental music are finding common ground.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on November 26, 2012, 07:22:27 AM
In some sections of KONTAKTE I had to splice it all by hand, which is an unbelievable labour. Imagine, I worked on the last section of KONTAKTE beginning around 23'00 or 24'00, together with Gottfried Michael Koenig in Studio 11 on the third floor of Cologne Radio, for three months. And when it was completely ready, I spliced it together with previous sections, listened, turned pale, left the studio and was totally depressed for a whole day. And I came back next morning and announced to Koenig that we had to do it all over again. I mean, he almost fainted.

You see, there is so much work involved in the synchronization of layers, and every sound of KONTAKTE is made in a very complicated way from speeded-up trains of pulses. We had to do it all over again because the general speed was too fast, the music was in too much of a rush. This meant we had to edit the whole section all over again, splicing hundreds, even thousands of small segments of music. That mosaic technique was extraordinarily difficult, and also because you could only hear the result at the very end. If I had been using a synthesizer, as I did for SIRIUS, I would only have had to change the timescale, and I could have done this in one day, and been able to hear the result straight away, during the time of working. -Stockhausen

(from an inteview with Karlheinz Stockhausen by Robin Maconie which was recorded at the composer's home in Kürten, near Cologne, on August 4 and August 7, 1981)


The superhuman effort required to create a piece as complex, detailed and textured as Kontakte using such primitive techniques almost defies belief. It must have been devastating to work on something for three months, only to play it back and think, "Well, I've buggered that up good and proper."
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Oclock on November 26, 2012, 08:31:39 AM
Kathinka Pasveer (from Stockhausen Foundation) just announced in Facebook the next:

"Finished mixing MICHAELION for CD 54 today! Beautiful!!!! Hopefully the CD will be available for Christmas…"

 8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on December 26, 2012, 01:56:41 PM
When clearing some bookshelves I found this book I bought back in the '70s when I was listening to a lot of Stockhausen

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bSvOiHueL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Published in 1973 it contains most of the works I like the best, but it would be nice to have a followup volume that covered his later decades.

I'll probably re-read it, and it will be like reading it for the first time.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 26, 2012, 04:20:26 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bSvOiHueL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Published in 1973 it contains most of the works I like the best, but it would be nice to have a followup volume that covered his later decades.

I have it too, and it is indeed a good read. I also have Jonathan Harvey's book, which contains a reasonably detailed and more technical account of roughly the same works covered in Wörner's book:

Jonathan Harvey, The music of Stockhausen

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517PqBLqqzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0571102514/?tag=goodmusicguideco (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0571102514/?tag=goodmusicguideco)

But the best one I have and can recommend is Robin Maconie's book, of which the 2005 edition covers Stockhausen's output up to and including all Licht operas, and therefore is more or less the "followup" volume you desire:

Robin Maconie, Other planets

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 28, 2012, 08:14:41 AM
Book Description
The Darmstadt New Music Courses were the most significant institutional bastion of new music in post-war Europe. Yet until now there has been no full-length coverage of them in English. This volume shows the rise and fall of the 'Darmstadt School', through a wealth of primary sources and analytical commentary.


About the Author
Martin Iddon is Associate Professor of Music at the University of Leeds. He previously lectured at University College Cork and Lancaster University, and studied composition and musicology at the Universities of Durham and Cambridge. His musicological research largely focuses on post-war music in Germany and the United States of America, and has been published in numerous leading journals, including Musical Quarterly, twentieth-century music and the Contemporary Music Review. His music has been performed in Europe, North America and Australia, and has been featured on BBC Radio 3, Radio New Zealand and the Österreichischer Rundfunk.

Product Details
Hardcover: 345 pages
Publisher: Cambridge University Press (April 30, 2013)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1107033292
ISBN-13: 978-1107033290


Is that Nono, Schoenberg's daughter, and Cage on the cover?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 28, 2012, 03:52:19 PM
Is that Nono, Schoenberg's daughter, and Cage on the cover?

Nono, Nuria, Stockhausen and Maderna.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 03, 2013, 04:32:51 AM
CD 54 on SV is out! Finally a release with Michaelion. Should show up soon on the online store.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/400127_10200355695961652_1039924484_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 03, 2013, 12:42:36 PM
Very cool .. where did you find this? The official-site doesn't mention a thing yet.

It was Kathinka on Facebook.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 04, 2013, 11:38:28 AM
Can't find her facebook pg. They're advertising it on the main site now, price is pretty steep for a single disc .. ?

MICHAELION (4th scene of WEDNESDAY from LIGHT)
for choir / bass with short-wave receiver / flute, basset-horn, trumpet, trombone /
a synthesizer player, tape / 2 dancers / sound projectionist
29 € / $42


That is the price she announced on her page. If you search for her name on Facebook you should find her page.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on January 04, 2013, 12:18:21 PM
I guess I am about ready to buy some of the recordings from Stockhausen Verlag.  I would prefer buying downloads but all I see are the CDs for purchase.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 04, 2013, 12:27:23 PM
I guess I am about ready to buy some of the recordings from Stockhausen Verlag.  I would prefer buying downloads but all I see are the CDs for purchase.

The CDs are worth it as they come with extensive notes. I will be making a purchase soon also, to fill some of the remaining gaps in my collection and get the latest releases (e.g. Michaelion, Jubiläum and the orchestral version of Tierkreis).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 05, 2013, 04:55:25 AM
Just curious .. I'm not a "facebook" person but do you to have an account in order to search for her? I tried Google & Bing and nothing.

Yes, you do. If you decide to join, Antonio Pérez Abellán is also there and posts updates frequently.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 05, 2013, 03:01:39 PM
petrarch .. i noticed on KS's site within this new pdf http://www.stockhausen.org/new_scores_cd.pdf

They list CD103 will be POLE for 2 (integral version) .. you said you have CD46 SPIRAL (integral) any indication in the liners there as to why these works are prone to such expansions etc.?


I'm still on vacation in Europe and will be back home by end of next week--will check then.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 11, 2013, 06:38:25 AM
petrarch .. i noticed on KS's site within this new pdf http://www.stockhausen.org/new_scores_cd.pdf

They list CD103 will be POLE for 2 (integral version) .. you said you have CD46 SPIRAL (integral) any indication in the liners there as to why these works are prone to such expansions etc.?


As promised, from the liner notes of CD46:

Quote
In the Stockhausen Complete Edition series, three versions of Spiral for a soloist had been released until 1995: on CD 15 there are two recordings made in 1971 with Péter Eötvös (electrochord with synthesizer, short-wave radio) and Harald Bojé (electronic, short-wave radio); on CD 45 is a recording of Cathy Milliken (oboe, didjeridoo, voice, short-wave radio).

All performances of Spiral until 1995 were partial performances. In the score, 10 sections are indicated by a dividing line. It is possible to individually perform a part of the work from one dividing line to one of the following lines. Earlier performances included one or two sections, with durations varying between 15 to 25 minutes.

The first performance of the entire work was realized by Michael Vetter on November 22nd 1995 at the Ballhorn Tonstudio in Odenthal: it is reproduced on the two CDs 46 A-B with the duration of 138 minutes.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 11, 2013, 09:17:19 AM
As promised, from the liner notes of CD46:

Uh...'Spiral' does not seem like the most exciting piece I've ever heard (ran through some of the Eotvos on YT). 2cds??? Over two hours of 'composing' with short-wave? petrarch... you're a fan here? I don't understand the appeal. (I know, I'm setting myself up for a smartass answer, haha)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on January 11, 2013, 10:16:09 AM
Uh...'Spiral' does not seem like the most exciting piece I've ever heard (ran through some of the Eotvos on YT). 2cds??? Over two hours of 'composing' with short-wave? petrarch... you're a fan here? I don't understand the appeal. (I know, I'm setting myself up for a smartass answer, haha)

Augenmusik is German for a composition which looks impressive on paper, but the aural result does not meet the level of anticipation.

Some compositions - or ideas for compositions - might sound better on paper!   0:)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on January 11, 2013, 10:27:35 AM
Augenmusik is German for a composition which looks impressive on paper, but the aural result does not meet the level of anticipation.

Some compositions - or ideas for compositions - might sound better on paper!   0:)

Which reminds me of the Mark Twain quip: Wagner's music is better than it sounds.

Listening to Spiral I as I type.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on January 11, 2013, 10:34:26 AM
Spiral is one of a series of works dating from the 1960s which Stockhausen designated as "process" compositions. These works in effect separate the "form" from the "content" by presenting the performers with a series of transformation signs which are to be applied to material that may vary considerably from one performance to the next. In Spiral and three companion works (Kurzwellen for six performers, Pole for two, and Expo for three), this material is to be drawn spontaneously during the performance from short-wave radio broadcasts (Kohl 1981, 192–93). The processes, indicated primarily by plus, minus, and equal signs, constitute the composition and, despite the unpredictability of the materials, these processes can be heard from one performance to another as being "the same" (Kohl 2010, 137).

Sounds like something John Cage might have done.

 ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 11, 2013, 10:57:42 AM
Sounds like something John Cage might have done.

If you search GMG carefully enough, you'll see we've been there before and I have made that exact same remark.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 11, 2013, 11:06:25 AM
Augenmusik is German for a composition which looks impressive on paper, but the aural result does not meet the level of anticipation.

Some compositions - or ideas for compositions - might sound better on paper!   0:)

This. It took me a while to adjust, having devoured most of the literature more than a decade before I was able to listen to what I was reading about. Still, I feel I gained a lot from that ingrained learning about the processes--especially how arbitrary they are below that veneer of "unassailable logic and intent" (Cage was a revelation here).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 11, 2013, 11:15:47 AM
Uh...'Spiral' does not seem like the most exciting piece I've ever heard (ran through some of the Eotvos on YT). 2cds??? Over two hours of 'composing' with short-wave? petrarch... you're a fan here? I don't understand the appeal. (I know, I'm setting myself up for a smartass answer, haha)

It's like a system of guided improvisation. Stimuli occur that cause side-effects. There is a series of arcs, roughly following what's on paper. Just let your ears guide your imagination, and leave any prior expectations at the door. This is Stockhausen at his freest--well, as free as he managed to be, excepting the ultimate implosion in Aus den Sieben Tagen from the same turning point year... 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 12, 2013, 04:37:48 AM
Nah .. Stockhausen is enjoying setting his performer an impossible task .. there are relationships, live electronic things, the soloist accompanying, reacting, imitating, repeating, expanding, contracting, transforming, playing off of what he dials in on the short-wave receiver which acts as a 'harmonic instrument' .. Heinz Holliger made a virtuosic recording of Spiral (DG) which is also one of the funniest, with magical imitations of short-wave static and some wonderful slapstick humour at the expense of an unfortunate piece of light music that's dialed in on the receiver by the soloist. If the player doesn't have his shit together though, the musical result produces rubbish .. the weight is all on the player's shoulders. Stockhausen is calling for a different kind of musician in these pieces ..

Nah, Stockhausen is simply exploring freer structures and leveraging an age-old tradition of expecting the musician to contribute to the performance of the work above and beyond just mechanically following directions on paper. It's as arbitrary as it gets, he turned the page and moved on a few years later, arguably when he exhausted his own resources in that aesthetic.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 12, 2013, 09:25:29 AM
Sometimes it feels like Borg vs. Connors around here, haha!! ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 12, 2013, 11:08:57 AM
What I said earlier is the gist of it my friend. Interpretation isn't mechanical, it can be ..  but it depends on the musician. And anything that calls for improvisation, intuition, & spontaniety will seem freer.. but musicians have did these sorts of things since the beginning in writing & playing, it's nothing new & it's apart of KS's thing too .. all the way through. The only twist here is that KS is using a radio receiver to pull his musical material and the musicians play along (imitate, transform, transpose, repeat etc.) And the radio receiver features repeatedly in his work. I wouldn't mind hearing that integral version that he recorded in the 90s with Vetter, and I'm curious about this new CD103 .. is Vetter on CD54 of Michaelion, playing the Operator character .. bass with short-wave?

I know how the short-wave receiver is used in this piece. The point was that the guided improvisation is not that specifically innovative in it, nor was it specifically asking "for the impossible" from the performer, even though it is a very elegant example of bringing the short-wave sound-world into the world of instrumental music. There are unique aspects, like the diagrammatic notation in the score (though it is also a piece of its time, when graphical notation was en vogue) and the interesting specification of "more of x"/"less of x" with x being a musical parameter for the performer to freely choose while playing. Essentially, this is not at all unlike the procedures used by Cage (and many others, for that matter), in the heyday of aleatory and chance music.

I don't know who the performers in CD54 are. Read something in passing recently about CD103 but can't remember at all what it was.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 12, 2013, 01:14:13 PM
There isn't much 'focused' improv being guided like this outside of Stockhausen, dial it in & be able, be ready, balance it ,, in front of an audience. It is a bit dangerous and dares the player/interpreter

Well, I can think of a number of examples of such controlled improvisation outside of Stockhausen... Check e.g. Kagel's Sonant; the directions in the score are reminiscent of some of the pieces in Aus den Sieben Tagen. Overall, that movement started around 1950, with a huge variety of degrees of participation from the performers.

The "special type of player" required is not unique to Stockhausen--musicians need to have some affinity with the sound world and musical aesthetics of each composer to be able to truly pull it off. Anecdotally, Stockhausen avoided musicians outside his own circle after he was sorely disappointed with performances of his freer works by "untrained" musicians.

Do you play? Have you tried playing it?

Yes, I play the piano. No, I haven't tried playing that piece.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 12, 2013, 04:31:33 PM
I'm curious about the Vetter recording, it sounds like he went to town with this one. Just curious.

Of the four versions I have (on SV CDs 15, 45 and 46), I definitely prefer those with the instruments. To me, the "translation layer" between performer and instrument adds a dimension of challenge that simply using the voice doesn't. That said, the scale of the integral version is positively alluring.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 12, 2013, 05:07:56 PM
But the human voice is an instrument too.

I'm aware of that; but at a high level I find the work needed to make an instrument do what you are hearing, particularly noises, sweeps, slides and bursts, to impart an articulation and inexact approximation that I don't find when doing the same using your voice. Imagine Mikrophonie I done with voices--I would find it much less interesting.

Has EXPO for 3 ever been recorded? .. 3 is the perfect number for improvisation imo.

I'm not aware of any recording of Expo.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 12, 2013, 06:17:34 PM
Stimmung?

No; you aren't getting it. Producing the variety of noises, howls, barks, scrapes, etc with just a tam-tam and contact mics is striking and endlessly fascinating. Doing it with voices would be just a bunch of guys howling and screaming at the microphones.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on January 13, 2013, 05:17:52 AM
You lost me .. Mikrophonie I is percussion piece .. why would we want to imagine voices trying to mimick that? ..  and what does that have to do with the spontaneous interplay that's the basis of Spiral between soloist and radio receiver ?  .. 

I was comparing Spiral for solo instrument vs. its version for voice. To me, the version for voice is less interesting, timbre- and articulation-wise, than the versions with instruments. To me, mimicking the music, noises, slides, sweeps, etc coming out of the receiver with the voice is less appealing (in much the same way Mikrophonie I would have been if it were for voice and not tam-tam + contact mics).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: MDL on January 28, 2013, 07:05:04 AM
Just spotted this in Harold Moores. Anyone heard it? How does it stack up against the previous recordings?

(http://www.wergo.de/shop/resources/717936.jpg)


http://www.wergo.de/shop/en_UK/3/show,308898.html (http://www.wergo.de/shop/en_UK/3/show,308898.html)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 07, 2013, 03:54:05 AM
Quote
Karlheinz Stockhausen - Lecture 5

But-that's perfect! LOL
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on March 21, 2013, 03:54:55 PM

like a celestial choir of fire trucks.


I like that image!   ;D 

How nice that Stockhausen's work was able to attract a small but eager crowd.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on March 25, 2013, 09:03:11 AM
Saw Oktophonie last night, and had very mixed feelings (which I'll elaborate on in a longer article). Nutshell: musically quite interesting, but didn't much go for the visual set-up, or the uncomfortable chairs - and as much as I'd like to report that the white cloaks (worn by the audience) added anything, I felt they were unnecessary.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on March 26, 2013, 11:03:01 AM
My review of OKTOPHONIE (via the blog) and...my feet.

http://monotonousforest.typepad.com/monotonous_forest/2013/03/stockhausen-at-the-armory.html

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on March 27, 2013, 05:55:10 AM
Wow, I'm exhausted after checking out these last Posts! That whole experience sounds draining.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: listener on April 25, 2013, 02:21:27 PM
Donnerstag (Instrumental section: Michael's Journey Around the world... to be performed at the Lincoln Center Festival this sumer..
http://www.playbillarts.com/features/article/8773.html
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on May 01, 2013, 06:30:12 AM
I can hardly believe it, but another performance of Kontakte - this time with Iktus Percussion - is coming up on May 21 at New York's Roulette. This will be the third NYC performance in three years.

http://roulette.org/events/ear-heart-music-itkus-percussion/

--Bruce

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 20, 2013, 07:12:10 AM
Hmmm,... 66 Pages,... occult numerology creeps into the Stockhausen Thread!

666 is actually a very interesting number, and I'm sure KS knew the esoterics of 'sacred geometry' and such? Was he a Mason (of any stripe)? Or a straight up Luciferian?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: 7/4 on June 07, 2013, 06:55:09 AM
Karlheinz Stockhausen
for basset horn


Traum - Formel (1981)
Evas spiegel (1984)
Susani (1984)
Die 7 lieder der tage (1986)
Freia (1991)
In freundschaft (1977)


(http://www.stradivarius.it/copertine/8011570339584.jpg)

Looks like something I'd need asap.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: 7/4 on June 07, 2013, 07:01:34 AM
...but it doesn't seem to be out on CD...  >:(
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 10, 2013, 09:16:00 AM
I spotted the Nonesuch recording of Momente at my local 2nd-hand store. Worth getting?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on June 12, 2013, 06:50:59 AM
Stockhausen's own label offers the highest quality & standards for his music.

This is the label that refuses to make their recordings of spatialized pieces available on DVD with surround sound (even though this would not cost any more than their current method of production), and whose liner notes are still amateurly typeset. Stockhausen-Verlag is better than nothing, but "Highest quality and standards" my ass.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 12, 2013, 06:29:00 PM
REFRAIN (1959)
click to enlarge

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5cxneUFTt1c/TrXxzUBElXI/AAAAAAAABIo/VrHhUGt5DFI/s1600/R.jpg)

Those who wish to understand what I have written for the three players in REFRAIN must read the score.

Those who wish to understand how the players interpret my score must know the score and compare performances.

Those who simply wish to hear (not understand) a piece of music need only listen.

What is left to be explained?

-K.Stockhausen


Great quote


Now you boys be nice to each other, haha!!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on June 21, 2013, 06:13:50 AM
Stockhausen unfolds his musical concept of death as a "process of liberation" as a transition to light and therefore as part of a new birth of man."

Not exactly a unique concept.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on June 21, 2013, 06:34:35 AM
Yes .. but an age old one. Universal even. But read carefully now. Of course .. Stockhausen's own 'musical conception unfolding' of this underlying (age old) mythology is utterly unlike anything in the pantheon of composition when filtered through his singular radiant prism.

 :D

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on June 21, 2013, 06:39:53 AM
This work is a special one and closest to Stockhausen's own bones.

I like the Licht series quite a lot.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2013, 11:34:13 AM
Stockhausen has lots of favored instruments! basset horn, trumpet,...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2013, 08:41:35 PM
True .. winds, percussion, keyboard, harp, voice etc  .. in fact, one could easily write on the innumerable expansions he made in music throughout his work, in all areas really. And many have. But I've always felt that the association he had with his son was very interesting and fruitful. Even this thing on the trumpet I posted above isn't completely comprehensive ..  it doesn't go into some of the strong extensive later pieces from LICHT featuring the trumpet like Bassetsu-Trio (Mittwoch) and the truly amazing Licht-Bilder (Sonntag) etc. Or KLANG trumpet stuff ..  i.e. solo Harmonien, trios .. Schonheit, Erwachen.

I'd like to hear the Trumpet Quartet.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on July 04, 2013, 07:23:42 AM
What other Luciferiaen Composers do we have? Scriabin? Ravel?...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on July 12, 2013, 05:39:15 AM
James, you had asked about the Licht recordings that I had - and after checking, it seems like I don't have all of them.  I am missing Day 4 entirely, and of the rest some have 70 or so tracks and the others have one or two long tracks, lasting about 70 minutes of music.  I have a total of 13 discs.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on July 12, 2013, 05:49:59 AM
Yea .. you're a bit short of having it all as there are a little over 70 discs worth of the LICHTWERKE. When you say 4th Day do you mean Thursday (Donnerstag) ? or the 4th day he composed chronologically which would be Tuesday (Dienstag) ?

I have some two "discs" (how I've got them sequenced in my library) from Dienstag with a total of 135 tracks; so by "Day 4" I mean Donnerstag.  But since these are files and not physical discs I don' know how they would really appear in the proper format.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: deafeninglysilent_1.61... on July 21, 2013, 10:11:36 AM
(http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/86fd1383-153f-449e-a4ec-de99ee06bb80.img)

http://www.youtube.com/v/EgG_feXOQM0

Published on Jul 20, 2013
via YouTube Capture


Marvelous piece! One of my favorites.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on September 19, 2013, 08:06:19 AM
Nicholas Isherwood Sings Stockhausen in Los Angeles

(http://www.peopleinsideelectronics.com/sites/default/files/isherwoodBanner08122013small.png)

September 9, 2013
Posted by Paul Muller in Concert review
Contemporary Classical, Electro-Acoustic, Experimental Music, Los Angeles

On a hot September 7th Saturday night, People Inside Electronics (http://www.peopleinsideelectronics.com/) and LA Sonic Odyssey (http://www.lasonicodyssey.org/) presented bass-baritone Nicholas Isherwood (http://www.nicholasisherwood.com/) in a concert of electronic and vocal music given at the Moryork Gallery (http://moryork.blogspot.ca/) in Highland Park. This was the Los Angeles appearance for Isherwood’s world tour that will also take him to New Zealand, Portugal and France. The evening included works by Michael Norris, Jean-Claude Risset, Lissa Meridan, Isaac Shankler and featured an adaptation of Karlheintz Stockhausen’s powerful Capricorn.

The interior walls were lined with all sorts of exotic items and the acoustics were carefully engineered with several good speakers placed around the perimeter of the audience. A table with a soundboard and several computers completed the electronic setup.

After an intermission Capricorn, by Karlheinz Stockhausen was performed. This was perhaps the most conventionally structured piece of the evening, almost operatic in form. In this adaptation an alien being from the dogstar appears and sings the music of sphere Sirius to the audience. Nicholas Isherwood made his entrance accompanied by loud electronic sounds simulating the roar of an arriving spaceship. He was dressed head to toe in a silver body suit and silver makeup – a heroic feat in itself considering the heat – and climbed up to a raised platform, facing the audience. The program notes state that “The work is based on simple melodies from Stockhausen’s piece ZODIAC, which are sometimes slowed down so much that the melody is no longer recognizable.”

The electronics in this piece provided a mysterious, but never menacing, ambiance suited to the alien presence. The singing was strong but controlled, and Isherwood stood rooted to the same place on his platform, changing his pose as the music required. And it was all very convincing – you could actually believe that you were hearing an alien bringing his message through song. As the piece progressed, empathy for the alien increased as the warmth of his message took hold, winning over the audience. A beautiful ending vocal preceded the rush of sound as his spaceship departed, closing the work. This performance by Nicholas Isherwood was greeted with enthusiastic applause for what was clearly a powerful reading of a landmark work.

Nicholas Isherwood worked with Karlheinz Stockhausen from 1983 to 2007 in addition to an international career in opera and commercial recordings. He has taught at the Paris Conseratorie and the Salzburg Mozarteum and has also held a number of visiting professorships in both Europe and North America.

The next concert from People in Electronics will be October 8th, 2013 at the Monk Space in Los Angeles and will feature the Lyris Quartet.


Isherwood's got THAT voice, love it!!

btw James- your Thread hear is starting to get kinda spacey in how it comes and goes, always with a long update, and I start to think of you as Bruce Dern in Silent Running.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2013, 10:11:54 AM
Recently discovered Stockhausen manuscript long thought lost!  Space-Wank for nose-flute, mandocello, ring modulator and amplified tweezers.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on October 16, 2013, 10:24:15 AM
Recently discovered Stockhausen manuscript long thought lost!  Space-Wank for nose-flute, mandocello, ring modulator and amplified tweezers.

Would that be part of this family of modulators?


(http://www.world-wide-art.com/art/va/printjpgs/k/mkungl/illudiumq36.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2013, 10:26:21 AM
It was so explosive, my mind was blown, cats.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2013, 10:28:47 AM
James, have you heard any Stockhausen in live performance? When was the last time you attended a concert? Just curious.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2013, 11:00:58 AM
a) Yea .. I have. b) This past summer.

Thanks.

a) Which pieces? b) What were the programs you heard live this summer? Just curious.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: HenselFlaeder on October 17, 2013, 10:19:18 AM
Cool thread James!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 17, 2013, 11:49:12 AM
After dinner yesterday, there was a knock on the door. I answered, and found two well-dressed young men in their 20s, one holding a tape reel, and the other a model helicopter.

"Oh, you boys must be Stockhausen's Witnesses."
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 11:59:52 AM
8)

Don't feel too smug, James. The dude's a newbie. Just wait till he gets to know you  :D ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on October 24, 2013, 06:57:44 AM
Since we're talkin' pupils, for consideration of further exploration .. some of these pupils went on to write some absolutely vast, incredibly inventive jawdropping choral edifices. See KS's Invisible Choirs, Welt-parlament or Angel Processions for instance. Clear examples of a pupil far surpassing not only all the other pupils but also the teacher!

Which made wonder, did Stockhausen have any pupils?  Formal students, that is, as opposed to those who say they were influenced by his work.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on October 24, 2013, 07:30:35 AM
Which made wonder, did Stockhausen have any pupils?  Formal students, that is, as opposed to those who say they were influenced by his work.

Yes, Stockhausen had quite the formal teaching career (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Stockhausen#Teaching).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 24, 2013, 07:33:18 AM
Fantastic! And he taught, too! Was there anything the man could not do?  And he was clearly in a class apart even from his teachers, for whom the act of teaching Stockhausen had to have been a transfigurational experience, truly, how could their drab lives have possibly been the same after touching that incredible soul of genius?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on October 24, 2013, 07:48:41 AM
Yes, Stockhausen had quite the formal teaching career (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Stockhausen#Teaching).

The article does not list any students who came out of these teaching activities, and who might have gone on to notable composing careers of their own.  Do you know of any composers from the second half of the 20th century who acknowledge studying with Stockhausen?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on October 24, 2013, 07:52:54 AM
The article does not list any students who came out of these teaching activities, and who might have gone on to notable composing careers of their own.  Do you know of any composers from the second half of the 20th century who acknowledge studying with Stockhausen?

Here you go (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Stockhausen#Notable_students). You'll have to click through to find those who studied under him at the Hochschule, as opposed to those who just had a single summer course with him. However, Claude Vivier and Wolfgang Rihm are two formal students I can name off the top of my head. (On the documentary on the Claude Vivier Reves d'un Marco Polo DVD set, one of Stockhausen's students that is less well known and whose name I forget, recounts a little of his and Vivier's days under the maestro.)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on October 24, 2013, 08:01:54 AM
Here you go (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Stockhausen#Notable_students). You'll have to click through to find those who studied under him at the Hochschule, as opposed to those who just had a single summer course with him. However, Claude Vivier and Wolfgang Rihm are two formal students I can name off the top of my head. (On the documentary on the Claude Vivier Reves d'un Marco Polo DVD set, one of Stockhausen's students that is less well known and whose name I forget, recounts a little of his and Vivier's days under the maestro.)

Thanks.  I see more than a few names, whose music is of more interest to me than their teacher's.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on October 24, 2013, 08:50:17 AM
Plenty. But what difference does it make .. with or without, he's still one of the greatest composers of all time who's had an enormous impact.

I believe you when you say it makes no difference to you, but for others, myself included, the legacy of a composer is defined not only by his music, but also can be enhanced by the work of his students.  I guess the most obvious example is Schoenberg who is known not only for his music but also by the music created by his most prominent students Anton Webern and Alban Berg.  And Messian's students have extended his legacy, in many cases, as part of developing their own unique voice.

This caused me to wonder about Stockhausen's legacy through his students.  I suppose no one wishes Stockhausen to represent a dead end.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ChamberNut on October 24, 2013, 09:42:35 AM
Plenty. But what difference does it make .. with or without, he's still one of the greatest composers of all time who's had an enormous impact.

....speaking of 'half-baked'
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on October 24, 2013, 10:42:50 AM
On October 28, www.medici.tv will air its webcast - free - of the 2012 performance of Gruppen, with Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic. The program will be available through November 3.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 12, 2013, 03:15:18 AM
Is the Polydor recording of Sternklang the same as the SV? If not, how would you compare them?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 12, 2013, 03:33:00 AM
I don't particularly like that work, but yes it is the same thing.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 19, 2013, 10:51:06 AM
Soirée Stockhausen au Festival d’Automne Le 18 novembre 2013 par Michèle Tosi
  Concert, Festivals, La Scène
Cité de la Musique .13-XI-2013. Festival d’Automne. Karlheinz Stockhausen (1928-2007) : Trans pour orchestre et électronique ; Bassetsu Trio pour cor de basset, trompette et trombone ; Menschen hört pour sextuor vocal ; Unsichtbare Chöre pour bande magnétique à huit pistes. Marco Blaauw, trompette ; Stephen Menotti, trombone ; Fie Schouten, cor de basset ; Neue Vocalsolisten Stuttgart ; Klaus-Dieter Hesse, réalisation sonore (Trans) ; Kathinka Pasveer, collaboration à la réalisation scénique (Trans) ; Pauk Jeukendrup, réalisation sonore ; Orchestre symphonique de la SWR de Baden-Baden et Fribourg-en-Brisgau, direction : François-Xavier Roth.

France
Île-de-France
Paris
Cité de la Musique
 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 19, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
They have been having these Stockhausen soirée for years; this 2013 programme is strong .. especially the LICHT selections.
I know you don´t care much for Sternklang. Having being created around that time, what do you think of Trans?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 20, 2013, 12:12:27 AM
Kontakte, Gruppen, Hymnen, Der Jahreslauf, Stimmung, the electronics I´ve heard from Aus den Sieben Tagen and Licht and his electronic music on the whole... At the moment I´m going through Klang.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 20, 2013, 05:01:48 AM
Out of the 13 hours I´ve heard, I´m not keen on the first one. I´ll listen to it a third time, but not yet.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 20, 2013, 05:08:29 AM
Out of the 13 hours I´ve heard, I´m not keen on the first one. I´ll listen to it a third time, but not yet.

Yes, Klang is good, but it is a bit hit and miss in places, like Licht.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 20, 2013, 05:09:17 AM
The sobriety in here is a nice change.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 20, 2013, 05:10:16 AM
I know you don´t care much for Sternklang. Having being created around that time, what do you think of Trans?

FWIW, I am much more a Sternklang fan than I am of Trans, though I like them both.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on November 20, 2013, 05:10:54 AM
The sobriety in here is a nice change.

We're in the bubble.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 20, 2013, 05:22:11 AM
Aren't we all? Recognition is the first step . . . .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 20, 2013, 08:50:15 AM
FWIW, I am much more a Sternklang fan...
So am I.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 26, 2013, 04:44:22 AM
Powerful Cosmic Pulses. Last Sunday I crashed against it in my home premiere: today it´s entering my ears like kinfe in butter.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on November 26, 2013, 04:58:16 AM

A coproduction with the Wiener Taschenoper,


The Vienna "Pocket Opera," or "Handbag Opera": great name!   0:)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 28, 2013, 02:30:04 PM
Maybe it is not his intention, maybe it is just me, but I find sometimes a sense of humour in Stockhausen works (some places of Hymnen, Stimmung, Dienstag... that I can recall now). It is not as openly burlesque, so to say, as in Mauricio Kagel; it can be a nuance (like the breathings in Stimmung, or a snake-likevibrating reed after Luzifer) or a wider passage like in the red colour mantras in Hymnen... Anybody else has noticed something in that direction?
Some people say Kafka is funny, some people don´t.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 28, 2013, 02:36:28 PM
Great you noticed too. Many listeners pass by that, I think.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 28, 2013, 02:47:42 PM
Is there literature on that? I didn´t know. I´d like to read some, anything you find particularly interesting?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 29, 2013, 05:45:08 AM
Wow! Music for every season (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22502.msg761627.html#msg761627)! He is so utterly awesome! (I'm missing how any of that has to do with Advent/Christmas, at all, at all, but let that slide.)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 29, 2013, 06:39:43 AM
And, had he lived longer, minutes and seconds would also have been covered.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 29, 2013, 06:54:52 AM
I'd like to say again just how supremely awesome Stockhousen is!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on November 29, 2013, 07:11:03 AM
I only know Dienstag fully and the electronic parts of some of the other days, so I can´t give an opinion.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on December 04, 2013, 04:37:41 AM
STOCKHAUSEN WEBSITE NEWS!

December 5, 2013 marks the sixth anniversary of Karlheinz Stockhausen's passing into eternity.


Maybe.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on December 04, 2013, 05:13:37 AM
Two petitions:

1. I like Hymnen a lot.  I wonder what other works by Stockhausen, even if not so massive. would fall into the same category or be similar to any extent.

2. I would like to listen to opinions about Ceylon, Prozession, Mixture and Kurzwellen.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on December 04, 2013, 02:43:11 PM
Thank you, James  :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Oclock on December 18, 2013, 04:03:04 AM
From Kathinka Pasveer's Facebook:

Today we received the message that Michael Vetter has passed away on December 7th.

Fortunately, we have just finished a fantastic recording of EXPO for 3 which will be released soon:

CD 104 of the Stockhausen Complete Edition was recorded at Sound Studio N, Cologne, with Kathinka Pasveer, recording director and mixing and Günther Kasper, sound engineer.
Natascha Nikreprelevic, Michael Vetter and F.X.Randomiz realised three different versions of EXPO on October 12th 2013 without interruption or later corrections. The second and third version were choosen for the present edition and were mixed on October 13th, 20th and December 1st 2013.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: AndyD. on December 21, 2013, 07:24:04 AM
May I please have recording reccomendations? I am almost completely new to Stockhausen, and am primarily interested in his serial compositions.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2013, 07:40:27 AM
May I please have recording reccomendations? I am almost completely new to Stockhausen, and am primarily interested in his serial compositions.

If you're interested in mid to late-20th Century music, then my suggestion is listen to a real composer like Schnittke or Hartmann. You'll dig their music, Andy. For a metalhead like you, these two composers are almost self-recommending. 8)

Some musical examples of both composers:

Schnittke -

http://www.youtube.com/v/utC06VN3XIA

Hartmann -

http://www.youtube.com/v/N5AmqY5OSX8
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: AndyD. on December 21, 2013, 08:08:54 AM
If you're interested in mid to late-20th Century music, then my suggestion is listen to a real composer like Schnittke or Hartmann. You'll dig their music, Andy. For a metalhead like you, these two composers are almost self-recommending. 8)

Some musical examples of both composers:

Schnittke -

http://www.youtube.com/v/utC06VN3XIA

Hartmann -

http://www.youtube.com/v/N5AmqY5OSX8

Hi MI! I do like Schnittke, especially his Viola Concerto, but now I'm interested in Hartmann, thank you!

Here is a good starter kit ..

Klavierstücke (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD56.htm)
Gruppen (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD5.htm)
Kontakte (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD6.htm)
Zeitmasze (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD4.htm)
Hymnen (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD10.htm)
Momente (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD80.htm)
Stimmung (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD12.htm)
Mantra (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD16.htm)
Music for flute, piccolo flute, alto flute (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD28.htm)
Michaels Reise (http://www.amazon.com/Stockhausen-Solisten-Version-Trompeter-Mitspieler-Klangregisseur/dp/B0000031VN/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1387640916&sr=8-12&keywords=Michaels+reise)
Invisible Choirs (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD31.htm)
Music for clarinet, bass clarinet, basset-horn (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD32.htm)
Luzifers Tanz (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD34.htm)
Oktophonie (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD41.htm)
Music for trumpet, piccolo trumpet, flugelhorn (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD43.htm)
Electronic Music with Sound Scenes of Friday (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD49.htm)
Welt-parlament (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD51.htm)
Lichter-Wasser (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD58.htm)
Strahlen (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD75.htm)
Music for saxophone (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD78.htm)
Freude (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD84.htm)
Treue (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD90.htm)
Cosmic Pulses (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD91.htm)
Tierkreis (http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD100.htm)


This is perfect, James, thank you!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: North Star on December 21, 2013, 10:10:16 AM
Hi MI! I do like Schnittke, especially his Viola Concerto, but now I'm interested in Hartmann, thank you!

Keeping it Off-topic  8)

The ultimate Hartmann experience:


Or for a smaller dose:


Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:50:20 AM
Hi MI! I do like Schnittke, especially his Viola Concerto, but now I'm interested in Hartmann, thank you!

Excellent, Andy. Do you know Schnittke's Requiem or Faust Cantata? Karlo (North Star) suggested outstanding recordings for you to check out in regards to Hartmann. I think he'll be right up your alley. 8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: AndyD. on December 22, 2013, 01:47:05 PM
Excellent, Andy. Do you know Schnittke's Requiem or Faust Cantata? Karlo (North Star) suggested outstanding recordings for you to check out in regards to Hartmann. I think he'll be right up your alley. 8)

Hi MI! Getting right into Hartmann lately. I also liked Stockhausen's Invisible Choir.

I've got the Requiem on my short to-listen list, thanks to everyone!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on December 31, 2013, 08:58:16 AM
I'm curious- if KHS's stuff is all, let's say, 'religious', how can 'normal' people be expected to perform in his Operas? I mean, I saw the 'friars' pic above and wondered, Are these real friars, or just actors. Knowing that actors are sooooo impure, how can they be used for his music? Wouldn't you need real initiates?

Would Stockhausen benefit from real 'adepts' or psychics, or whatever, performing instead of just mere muuusicians??
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 31, 2013, 09:01:25 AM
Happy new year, snypsss!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on December 31, 2013, 09:16:00 AM
I'm curious- if KHS's stuff is all, let's say, 'religious', how can 'normal' people be expected to perform in his Operas? I mean, I saw the 'friars' pic above and wondered, Are these real friars, or just actors. Knowing that actors are sooooo impure, how can they be used for his music? Wouldn't you need real initiates?

Would Stockhausen benefit from real 'adepts' or psychics, or whatever, performing instead of just mere muuusicians??

Have you listened to Luzifers-Abschied? Quite worthwhile and it presents Stockhausen at his darkest (it's the setting where all those 'friars' are integral to the work).

The answer to the question about adepts and psychics vs. mere musicians is obvious from his considerations about the performance of his intuitive pieces.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on January 18, 2014, 06:19:40 PM
Teatro alla Scala - March 24th 2014 (http://www.teatroallascala.org/en/season/concerts/2013-2014/pollini-project/maurizio-pollini.html)

Maurizio Pollini
piano


Programme 
Ludwig van Beethoven
Sonata in F sharp major op. 78
Sonatina in G major op. 79
Sonata in E flat major op. 81a (“Les Adieux”)
Sonata in E min. op. 90

Karlheinz Stockhausen
Klavierstück X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klavierst%C3%BCcke_(Stockhausen)#Klavierst.C3.BCck_X)


[...]

I've also heard Pollini is planning on recording Stockhausen's Klavierstücke for Deutsche Grammophon.

(fingers crossed)


At least a couple of Pollini's performances of some of the Klavierstucke can be found on Youtube.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on January 18, 2014, 06:36:53 PM
Stockhausen: "Zeitmasze"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUZkz8myaEM

Interesting work from 1955 in which Stockhausen experimented with "tempo counterpoint", i.e. having the instruments play independent of a common tempo telling some players to play their parts " as fast as possible" or "as slow as possible" while also precisely noting other parts.  This kind of writing also influenced some of the Klavierstücke.  He  heard David Tudor play some keyboard works of John Cage when the pair toured Europe ion 1954 and Stockhausen was impressed with Tudor's using various non-traditional techniques (e.g. Klavierstücke X uses clusters similar to the ones he heard Tudor perform).  He dedicated the keyboard works to Tudor.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on January 19, 2014, 11:50:22 AM
Karlheinz Stockhausen ~ Refrain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4akQvvKd2Ug

Refrain (1959) for three players (piano with woodblocks, vibraphone with alpine cowbells, and amplified celesta with antique cymbals).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on January 20, 2014, 11:06:24 AM
What a lovely open concert hall Fundaçao Gulbenkian has in the heart of town!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: NorthNYMark on January 25, 2014, 11:06:43 AM
I listened to a Stockhausen work for the first time last night--Gruppen, performed by the Berlin Phil and Abbado (RIP).  I read some Amazon reviews of the CD, and it seems to be considered a relatively poor performance.  Nonetheless, I found it to be breathtaking!  I can only imagine what it must be like to experience this work in a live setting.  I will definitely be exploring more Stockhausen in the weeks to come.  (Kurtág's Stele, from the same album, was also gorgeous, in a very different way).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ritter on January 26, 2014, 05:02:27 AM
New book...



It contains the 1977 commenced opera cycle "LICHT - the 7 days of the week," with a detailed history and photos to the premieres of the individual operas and numerous pages of score & analysis of very complex musical structures. The second part of the book covers the cycle "KLANG - the 24 hours of the day" which occupied the composer to the end, some of which were premiered with Stockhausen but the cycle remained incomplete before his death in 2007. 

Very interesting....Frisius' first two volumes offer a wealth of information on Stockhausen's oeuvre...good to see that his now gone beyond 1977 and on to Licht and klang.. :)

But these Schott volumes are a bit on the pricey side, alas...  :(
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Pessoa on January 30, 2014, 03:07:36 AM
I can´t stand all that Urantia cosmic stuff lying behind Klang. I`d rather he had chosen to deal with daily things such as buying a red kettle or picking up the children from school.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on January 30, 2014, 06:21:59 AM
I can´t stand all that Urantia cosmic stuff lying behind Klang. I`d rather he had chosen to deal with daily things such as buying a red kettle or picking up the children from school.

Buuut... you get to lease your own planet!! :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2014, 04:47:07 PM
Another masterful post from the King of Copy-and-Paste!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 30, 2014, 07:11:22 PM
Buuut... you get to lease your own planet!! :o

Leave it to our snypsss to find the economic upside!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on February 01, 2014, 04:23:10 PM
Chöre für Doris (1950)

From Wiki:

During his third year of music-education studies at the Cologne Conservatory, free stylistic exercises in composition were part of the programme of training.  Along with fugues, chorale preludes, sonatas, and song arrangements in various traditional styles, and a scherzo in the style of Paul Hindemith, Stockhausen wrote a number of choral pieces for the school choir in which he himself sang.  Amongst them were these three Chöre nach Verlaine (Choruses after Verlaine), later retitled Chöre für Doris. The first and third choruses were completed on 3 and 1 August 1950, respectively. The exact date of composition of the second is unknown. Stockhausen, who had not considered himself a composer up to this point, decided shortly after finishing these choruses to attempt something a little more ambitious for the first time, and wrote the Drei Lieder for alto voice and chamber orchestra (Kurtz 1992, 27; Maconie 2005, 32; Stockhausen 1978, 32).

All of these student works and a number of later ones remained unpublished until 1971, when Stockhausen rediscovered his early work Formel for chamber orchestra, and noticed affinities with his then-just-completed Mantra for two pianos and electronics. When Maurice Fleuret asked for a new piece to be performed at the Journées de Musique Contemporaine, Stockhausen offered Formel, and filled out the programme with a selection of other early compositions, including the Drei Lieder and the Sonatine (Stockhausen)Sonatine for violin and piano. On this same programme, on 22 October 1971 at the Théâtre de Ville in Paris, Marcel Couraud's chamber choir sang the Chöre für Doris for the first time, together with the contemporaneous Chorale ("Wer uns trug mit Schmerzen") (Kurtz 1992, 184). The Chöre für Doris are the earliest of these works that Stockhausen allowed to be published (Frisius 2008, 15).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8nDESd_DA
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Oclock on February 10, 2014, 12:47:05 PM
Kathinka Pasveer wrote on Facebook: For all those who want to discuss different topics about Stockhausens works...

www.stockhausen-forum.de


 ???
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on February 12, 2014, 11:45:47 AM
Cool. And its got some expert Stockhausen chroniclers as members. i.e. Robin Maconie, Thomas Ulrich.

So you'll fit in perfectly! :laugh:

 "James E. Coyote... Soooper Stockhausen Chronicler" m-beep beep

Ascend Willingly!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on February 13, 2014, 12:18:12 PM
Inori, adorations for one or two solists and orchestra (1973/1974)

https://www.youtube.com/v/RytjvycKMYI

RHYTHMUS

I. Genesis
II. Evolution [07:24]
III. Echo [10:41]
IV. Orchesterpause [12:27]

DYNAMIK

V. Genesis [14:07]
VI. Genesis [16:57]
VII. Evolution [20:30]
VIII. Echo [26:40]
IX. Orchesterpause [29:38]

MELODIE

X. Genesis [30:10]
XI. Genesis [31:08]
XII. Genesis [33:12]
XIII. Orchesterpause [36:02]

HARMONIE

XIV. Präsenz [37:05]
XV. Orchesterpause [38:21]
XVI. Echo [40:39]

POLYPHONIE

XVII. Evolution 1 [47:25]
XVIII. Evolution 2 [52:13]
XIX. Spiral [55:36]
XX. Adoration [1:00:56]
XXI. Orchesterpause [1:05:23]

Elizabeth Clarke e Alain Louafi, solisti
Suzanne Stephens, Japanese rin
Maria Bergmann, pianoforte

The Symphony Orchestra of the Southwest German Radio directed by Karlheinz Stockhausen
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: sanantonio on February 15, 2014, 04:39:46 PM
Sonatine (1951)

https://www.youtube.com/v/3dyOg4dfw6I

Sonatine, for violin and piano (1951)

I. ♩=50 | ♩=92-100 | ♩=50
II. ♩=46 (2:13)
III. ♩=120 (6:05)

Saschko Gawriloff, violin
Aloys Kontarsky, piano

Stockhausen composed the Sonatine as the second of two "free works" required for his final examinations at the Cologne Conservatory. The piano part of the first movement was composed originally as a separate work, titled Präludium, and the violin part was then superimposed. The manuscript of the completed composition is dated 19 March 1951. It was premiered by Wolfgang Marschner, concertmaster of the NWDR Symphony Orchestra, with the composer at the piano, in a broadcast recording transmitted for the first time on 24 August 1951. The first performance before a live audience, however, did not occur until twenty years later, when Saschko Gawriloff and Aloys Kontarsky played it on 22 October 1971 at a concert of the SMIP in Paris.

The work is not so much an integrated composition as three disparate style exercises, related only through the use of a common twelve-tone row in which thirds and perfect fifths predominate. Together with the Drei Lieder for alto and chamber orchestra, composed the previous summer, the Sonatine is the most significant example of Stockhausen's employment of classical Schoenbergian twelve-tone technique, but at the same time both compositions integrate this technique with aspects of neotonality and stylistic features associated with neoclassicism.

The first movement is lyrical and restrained in character, similar in character to a three-part invention in which rhythmic motives join with row transformations to produce the structure. On the other hand, it also resembles a small sonata-allegro form, beginning with the polyphonic superimposition of three different forms of the row (prime and retrograde in the right and left hands of the piano, inversion in the violin), all beginning on the same pitch, C5. The opening, slow section functions as an exposition. The middle section, in a faster tempo, is a sort of development section, and the final section returns to the opening tempo and material as a recapitulation.

In contrast to the polyphonic texture of the first movement, the second is more homophonic, with a slow boogie-woogie rhythm in the bass. The violin is muted throughout, and becomes separated from the increasingly heavy piano part as it floats upward. The movement is through-composed with an overall slowing process which Stockhausen described as "incredibly meditative, like Stimmung", and ends with the violin playing sextuplets against quadruplets in the piano.

The finale is dominated by polytonal chords, which accumulate into dense layers. The movement ends with a three-note chord, duplicated in the two hands of the piano as well as the violin, consisting of the notes C, D♭, and A♭. These notes were the predominating melodic notes at the beginning of this movement, as well as at the start of the first movement, and constitute the first trichord of the prime form of the basic row, which dominates all of the Sonatine. [wikipedia.org]
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Oclock on February 28, 2014, 08:18:19 AM
New release, but anything new:

(http://www.wergo.de/shop/resources/742054.jpg)

http://www.wergo.de/shop/en_UK/3/show,308909.html

Momente

Version 1965
studio reihe

composer: Karlheinz Stockhausen
interpreter: Alfons Kontarsky - Martina Arroyo - Aloys Kontarsky
booklet writer: Karlheinz Stockhausen
choir: Kölner Rundfunkchor
chorus master: Herbert Schernus
conductor: Karlheinz Stockhausen
orchestra/ensemble: Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester

Martina Arroyo: soprano / Aloys Kontarsky: Hammond organ / Alfons Kontarsky: Lowrey organ / Kölner Rundfunkchor / Herbert Schernus: choral director / members of the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester / Karlheinz Stockhausen: conductor

Order number: WER 67742   18.50 €    Add to basket

Price including VAT and plus delivery
As early as the 1960s WERGO made a name for themselves as a contemporary music label with outstanding recordings released under the title of “studio reihe neuer musik”. Now WERGO releases these gems from their early years, these highlights of 20th-century music history, in an excellent sound quality on CD for the first time.

“studio reihe” now continues with a work by Karlheinz Stockhausen:

His “Momente” [Moments] for soprano, four choral groups, and thirteen instrumentalists have not been designed as a fixed work with a clearly defined beginning, formal structure, and ending but as a composition of independent events with multiple meanings: For example, the individual groups of moments should be combined for certain performances of the work in such a way that they form their own version – in accordance with the given duration of programme and sound means. As soon as the arrangement of the moments has been determined and the performance material been set accordingly, certain moments are to be "inserted" in their neighbouring moments as well, to “remember” earlier ones or “announce” moments still to come.

Premiered on 21 May 1962, the composition underwent some changes in the following years which led to several variants, with this CD presenting "Version 1965".

The recordings were originally published on LP in 1967 (WERGO, WER 60024).

Momente
for soprano, four choral groups and thirteen instrumentalists (Version 1965)
dedicated to Mary Bauermeister
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on February 28, 2014, 08:41:43 AM
Friday, February 28th
Oldenburg, Ort und Zeit der Konzerte werden über die
Tagespresse und die elektronischen Medien noch bekanntgegeben
(Information: http://www.klangpol.de / www.ohton.de)

KLANG 13. Stunde / 13h Hour –COSMIC PULSES Electronic Music
HALT for trumpet and double-bass
Xi for flute
VIBRA-ELUFA for vibraphone
SUKAT for basset-horn and alto flute
KONTRABASS (DOUBLE-BASS) for double-bass and electronic music
ZYKLUS (CYCLES) for a percussionist
MISSION UND HIMMELFAHRT (MISSION AND ASCENSION) for trumpet and basset-horn
KLANG 13. Stunde / 13h Hour –COSMIC PULSES Electronic Music


(http://www.klangpol.de/files/teaser_stockhausen.png)


Here's my problem: when was the last time someone released a nice, varied Stockhausen programme such as above (or are the pieces too long?). I mean, I think there's no string music in KHS is there?, really?, I mena, that 'Sonatine' was unique,... and there's a lot of wind in KHS, and percussion,... but you should be able to put together a nicely filled cd with solos, duos, trios, and such, of varying timbre, with maybe bass clarinet and basset horn, or trumpet flugel, some flute, maybe sprinkled with the shortest Piano Pieces, maybe if there's a shortish percussion piece? I mean, there's not that maybe KHS 'recital' recordings, is there (I'm aware of what's been available, including the bass clarinet recital (but those are always the same pieces for different instruments) and --ot trumpet--- the  'Zyklus'Refrain'Kontackt' cds (probably that Koch cd is the echt-KHS cd?).

waaah, does everything have to be so long? :'(
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 28, 2014, 09:59:59 AM
The music ends long before the piece is over . . . .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 28, 2014, 10:00:55 AM
Not an actual comment on the composer of the thread . . . just a (Stravinsky, I think?) bon mot which snypsss's plaint brought to mind.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on March 01, 2014, 08:32:14 AM
The music ends long before the piece is over . . . .

Indeed, but that's Stockhausen for you. One long empty note after another with nothing in-between.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on March 01, 2014, 10:00:33 AM
Good to see the 1965 version finally make it onto CD: I'm not sure why it took so long.

It has documentary value as well as musical value, given the work's tangled (almost Boulezian) history of revisions. The DG recording was of the 1972 version, which is about twice the length and contains large amounts of new material as well as revisions of existing material. I've never been convinced this was entirely to the benefit of the work as it sacrifices tautness and stylistic continuity.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on March 06, 2014, 07:07:44 AM
Is 'Inori' available? If so, do you know who what where when and how? It's what, 2-3 cds complete? This is the kind of KHS release I need to get the juices going.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on March 06, 2014, 07:18:12 AM
http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD22.htm

You're just sitting there monitoring the Thread, aren't you? Haha!! :laugh:

Thanks,... but I haven't seen the price yet! :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on March 11, 2014, 05:00:04 PM
It has documentary value as well as musical value, given the work's tangled (almost Boulezian) history of revisions. The DG recording was of the 1972 version, which is about twice the length and contains large amounts of new material as well as revisions of existing material. I've never been convinced this was entirely to the benefit of the work as it sacrifices tautness and stylistic continuity.

The 1965 version was not complete as a number of moments hadn't been composed yet. According to the notes from SV's CD7 there is only one revision, corresponding to the new form-scheme on occasion of the 1972 recording.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on March 14, 2014, 08:39:05 AM
I don't care much at all for Stockhausen's music, though I retract a previous statement I made here calling it "academic" (I reserve this descriptor for Boulez and especially Babbitt). That being said, I saw this extensive 50-minute interview/special on BBC with Stockhausen and I think he is a fascinating person: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p013s7xf/Music_Masters_Stockhausen/

He doesn't come across here as a huge egoist, as I've heard him described. Actually, he seems very sincere (if rather odd) and convincing. I saw an interview with Boulez who, although charming, came across as very arrogant (every mention of a famous younger composer was accompanied by a comment indicating that Boulez was responsible for their fame). Stockhausen seems very matter-of-fact.

I wish there was something like this on Messiaen as well.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Oclock on March 24, 2014, 10:46:04 AM
2014/2015 Staatsoper Berlin

quite possibly...

Stockhausen: Mittwoch aus LICHT (Birmingham production?)

...stay tuned...  :P
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ritter on April 16, 2014, 04:53:09 AM
Brought from the Major-Label Avant-Garde Classics: SONY thread...

.....
That's Licht for you. I don't care much for it even though there are a few works there that I enjoy--and I have most of it already anyway.
True...but as music theatre, Licht is fascinating...well, what I've heard of it: Donnerstag and Samstag. When I proceeded to Montag, I was disappointed...all those litanies of Eva's birth-giving I found rather tedious (and verging on the ridiculous)...but it's probably time I move on to the next day of the week (Dienstag, I believe it would be ;) )

Quote
XVI was released in SV57.

I'm only missing XII-XIV (I've thought of getting the Corver CD just to fill the gaps, though I have them recorded) and XIX.

I must say that Natürliche Dauern has satisfied me much more thoroughly (as far as Stockhausen on the piano goes) than the Licht Klavierstücke ever could :).
You are right about XVI...it's XIX that still hasn't been premiered (at least the last time I spoke with friends about this). I heard rumours (quite a while ago) of Antonio Pérez Abellán preparing the world premiere.

Natürliche Dauern seems very appealing...on some next order to the Foundation, perhaps  :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 19, 2014, 03:52:14 PM
Meh. Not as good as Cage.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2014, 04:14:58 PM
Meh. Not as good as Cage.

When James rails against Cage and then Posts that EXPO video3... well, I haaave to start wondering who he's really working for?! :laugh: At least KHS gives me the giggles- Cage just makes me mad, haha!!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Moonfish on April 19, 2014, 05:14:54 PM
Why do I keep thinking about....

(http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/jimmy-painting-chimp.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Moonfish on April 19, 2014, 05:27:32 PM
You probably have "issues".

Yes, I really don't like much of the modern music and art that take the path of the bizarre (in my own opinion of course). I feel the same way about e.g. Pollock.  It just seems to be an attempt to be different from the crowd by using a new technique or approach. I guess one can argue that this has always been the case in music as different types of music came into fashion. Still, I think the thread was named accurately. However, in the same fashion as yourself I could also state that people that like Stockhausen have their own "issues".  :P   
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Moonfish on April 19, 2014, 05:36:16 PM
This coming from a guy who names himself after a "fish".   

That is really a ....err...... poignant response. We are all animals after all....
Besides I rather listen to the sound of fishes than Stockhausen...

http://core.ecu.edu/BIOL/luczkovichj/fishsounds/weakfish/wfpurr.wav (http://core.ecu.edu/BIOL/luczkovichj/fishsounds/weakfish/wfpurr.wav)

(http://www.blende3.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/singingfish-800x531.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Moonfish on April 19, 2014, 06:09:14 PM
So you think about chimps all the time and prefer listening to fish instead of great musicians. Ok.

No, I said that I prefer to listen to fish sounds rather than Stockhausen.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 19, 2014, 06:43:08 PM
No, I said that I prefer to listen to fish sounds rather than Stockhausen.

For one thing, their sounds are more nearly like music ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 19, 2014, 06:44:19 PM
Quote from: James
You probably have "issues".

The most delicious irony today.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on April 20, 2014, 05:59:36 AM
You probably have "issues".
I definitely have issues. I kind of like that painting! Not a fan of Stockhausen, even though it does interest me.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Moonfish on April 20, 2014, 11:14:43 AM
Right. A very great musician.

The fishes? Right! They are indeed!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 02, 2014, 07:01:47 AM
ok, buddy, what's your take on the Nono/Stockhausen spat? Such touchy, prickly temperaments...s.t.u.p.i.d. :laugh:

Ermagherd!! :o

Oh noh he didn't!

Chile'! Don' let him talk to you dat way!


wap! Biff! POW!!


What do you think is the Manliest Beef in Classical Music?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 02, 2014, 08:24:27 AM
That's a start! [...]
Oh dear god. Somebody help me!

 ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 02, 2014, 08:44:31 AM
Quote
. . . the last interview with the genius . . . .

I thought that was unction I nearly slipped on as I came in at the door . . . .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 02, 2014, 03:09:58 PM
Is the "Klavierstuck IX" the one with that c.a.~150x repeated chord at the beginning? Or is that "KS X"? I like that chord (seriously, reminds me of the opening of Bartoks 1st PC), but not that much.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: North Star on May 02, 2014, 03:24:03 PM
Is the "Klavierstuck IX" the one with that c.a.~150x repeated chord at the beginning? Or is that "KS X"? I like that chord (seriously, reminds me of the opening of Bartoks 1st PC), but not that much.
Yes. Agreed.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 02, 2014, 04:02:33 PM
Is the "Klavierstuck IX" the one with that c.a.~150x repeated chord at the beginning? Or is that "KS X"? I like that chord (seriously, reminds me of the opening of Bartoks 1st PC), but not that much.

It's IX. The number of repetitions follows the Fibonacci sequence in reverse (IIRC), starting at 144. It's a great piece, and the chord is two stacked tritones, with the top one moved a semitone down (also IIRC). Although it is a great sounding chord (especially in the Kontarsky recording), it is a fantastic moment when the repetition is finally broken and the notes and rhythm are scattered. 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 06, 2014, 10:04:34 AM
Jumppanen deftly handles unlikely pairing
By Matthew Guerrieri | Globe Correspondent   May 06, 2014

(http://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_371w/Boston/2011-2020/2014/04/29/BostonGlobe.com/Arts/Images/Paavali7.jpg)
Paavali Jumppanen is exploring the music of Schumann and Stockhausen.

On Sunday at the Gardner Museum, Paavali Jumppanen, the excellent, ever-curious Finnish pianist, opened a multi-concert exploration of music of Robert Schumann and Karlheinz Stockhausen. Pairing the eager 19th-century Romanticist and the out-of-this-world 20th-century modernist is less mysterious than it might initially seem. In fact, one zeitgeist-y way to consider it might be via mysteries themselves: After all, Schumann’s career coincided with the origins of modern detective fiction, Stockhausen’s crucial modernist innovations with the emergence of its analytical outgrowth, the police procedural. Jumppanen made the case for the two as complementary sleuths, each, in their own ways, as interested in recounting the investigation as in reaching a conclusion.

In Stockhausen’s “Klavierstück IX,” the famous opening — a single chord, played 227 times — became a singular clue, examined from every angle, returning as corroboration (reappearing as the harmonic underpinning of a seemingly unrelated idea) or contradiction (prompting the whispered rustling of the piece’s coda). Jumppanen related the case with heightened exactness, crisp clarity that carried over into Schumann’s Op. 1 “Abegg” Variations. Plunging its gemütlich theme into dense, ringing virtuosity, Jumppanen raised the stakes throughout, to a Vivace finale that was a blur of figuration, giving the final, simple cadence an air of ironic closure — the case closed, if not resolved.

Stockhausen’s “Klavierstück XI” and Schumann’s Op. 20 “Humoreske” both deal in fragments — “Klavierstück XI” providing 19 sections that the performer then arranges into a choose-your-own-adventure chain, the “Humoreske” juxtaposing pieces of style and mood. Jumppanen’s first pass through the Stockhausen swung between violent, chaotic action and cool, gimlet-eyed contemplation: a web of suspects under constant reconsideration, events reappearing from new angles.

The Schumann, by contrast, became a classic tale of ratiocination, as Poe called them. Jumppanen’s athletic playing kept a bright light on the music’s physical realization. The score became self-evidence: fast sections all about speed, soft sections all about softness. Schumann’s fondness for repetition — phrases or sequences obsessively rerun out of sheer sonic delight — seemed to neutralize sectional contrasts, revealing some essential quality about each looped idea. Instead of an implied extramusical narrative, there was a lucid portrayal of compositional exploration.

Jumppanen closed with a second, somewhat less mercurial realization of “Klavierstück XI”: longer stretches of similar music, be it delicate or declamatory, more sense of narrative arrangement. But, even given a more familiar formal arc, the work’s open-endedness still created the sense of unresolved secrets. Sometimes, even after an arrest, mysteries remain.


Are they in need of a new reviewer? If that's all it takes, please, sign me up! Even I can do that, no?


"... and so, Stockhausen's cabbage dumplings worked well with Schumann's sweet-tart pastries, coming together beneath the waft of their mingled juices."

or

"Stockhausen and Schumann together deftly soon fragrance gravy crystals"

or

"potatoe... the 'e'e is silent, like in the paring of Sto..."
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 06, 2014, 10:51:29 AM
Are they in need of a new reviewer? If that's all it takes, please, sign me up! Even I can do that, no?


"... and so, Stockhausen's cabbage dumplings worked well with Schumann's sweet-tart pastries, coming together beneath the waft of their mingled juices."

or

"Stockhausen and Schumann together deftly soon fragrance gravy crystals"

or

"potatoe... the 'e'e is silent, like in the paring of Sto..."
snyprrr, start a column! Please! I'd subscribe.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Rex on May 06, 2014, 07:57:23 PM
James - after months of regularly visiting your page for updates on Stockhausen - I decided it was about time I registered just to give you my heartfelt thanks for what you provide here. I'm somewhat amazed at the patience you show with the petty sniping that seems to be irresistible for some of your readers. Like terriers snapping and snarling at the heels of a great dane.
I have to say that the list of composers "that I am currently listening to" are those that I admire above all others in the great history of music. One thing that marks them out is the ability their music has to be ever fresh and to continually unfold more and deeper meaning. I first heard Stockhausen when I was a young lad developing a passion for music in school - and I was blown away by the power and beauty of his music. Still, some 40+ years later Stockhausen remains a composer for whom I have the deepest admiration. Like Bach, like Monteverdi, like Beethoven, the music of Stockhausen continues to move me profoundly by the brilliance of its compositional structure and the sometimes wondrous beauty he has created. All I can suggest to people who think Stockhausen was less than the genius he clearly was, is . . . listen harder and more carefully - some day you might get it, and you will be glad when you do!
But back to the main point. Thank you James - you work is very appreciated!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: North Star on May 07, 2014, 04:52:13 AM
James - after months of regularly visiting your page for updates on Stockhausen - I decided it was about time I registered just to give you my heartfelt thanks for what you provide here. I'm somewhat amazed at the patience you show with the petty sniping that seems to be irresistible for some of your readers. Like terriers snapping and snarling at the heels of a great dane.
I have to say that the list of composers "that I am currently listening to" are those that I admire above all others in the great history of music. One thing that marks them out is the ability their music has to be ever fresh and to continually unfold more and deeper meaning. I first heard Stockhausen when I was a young lad developing a passion for music in school - and I was blown away by the power and beauty of his music. Still, some 40+ years later Stockhausen remains a composer for whom I have the deepest admiration. Like Bach, like Monteverdi, like Beethoven, the music of Stockhausen continues to move me profoundly by the brilliance of its compositional structure and the sometimes wondrous beauty he has created. All I can suggest to people who think Stockhausen was less than the genius he clearly was, is . . . listen harder and more carefully - some day you might get it, and you will be glad when you do!
But back to the main point. Thank you James - you work is very appreciated!
Welcome to the forum, Rex!
I can't say Stockhausen is a favourite of mine (I've liked some things more than others of the few works I've heard) - but the others you mention certainly are.
I hope you will post more, and not only in the Spaceship. :)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 07, 2014, 05:31:20 AM
James - after months of regularly visiting your page for updates on Stockhausen - I decided it was about time I registered just to give you my heartfelt thanks for what you provide here. I'm somewhat amazed at the patience you show with the petty sniping that seems to be irresistible for some of your readers. Like terriers snapping and snarling at the heels of a great dane.
I have to say that the list of composers "that I am currently listening to" are those that I admire above all others in the great history of music. One thing that marks them out is the ability their music has to be ever fresh and to continually unfold more and deeper meaning. I first heard Stockhausen when I was a young lad developing a passion for music in school - and I was blown away by the power and beauty of his music. Still, some 40+ years later Stockhausen remains a composer for whom I have the deepest admiration. Like Bach, like Monteverdi, like Beethoven, the music of Stockhausen continues to move me profoundly by the brilliance of its compositional structure and the sometimes wondrous beauty he has created. All I can suggest to people who think Stockhausen was less than the genius he clearly was, is . . . listen harder and more carefully - some day you might get it, and you will be glad when you do!
But back to the main point. Thank you James - you work is very appreciated!
As I've said before, I don't musically enjoy Stockhausen, but I find him and his ideas very interesting and I occasionally will give something of his a listen out of interest. That being said, I have to agree with Rex (welcome, by the way!) in thanking James. When I first joined, I made a comment indicating that he was "academic" (along the lines with the self-admitted academic composer Babbitt) and James (politely) said that it seems like it sometimes but it really isn't academic music and that he follows no rules -- and I actually agree now. While I don't enjoy the music any more, I am glad to hear it in a different (and more "correct") light. It's really amazing how much you can learn, regardless of ability, if you just open your mind and try to minimize any preconceived notions.

Rex, I hope you stick around. We need more regular (and enthusiastic) posters on 20th-century music!

As for me, I'm a Ligeti guy. ;D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 07, 2014, 09:52:56 AM
James - after months of regularly visiting your page for updates on Stockhausen - I decided it was about time I registered just to give you my heartfelt thanks for what you provide here. I'm somewhat amazed at the patience you show with the petty sniping that seems to be irresistible for some of your readers. Like terriers snapping and snarling at the heels of a great dane.
I have to say that the list of composers "that I am currently listening to" are those that I admire above all others in the great history of music. One thing that marks them out is the ability their music has to be ever fresh and to continually unfold more and deeper meaning. I first heard Stockhausen when I was a young lad developing a passion for music in school - and I was blown away by the power and beauty of his music. Still, some 40+ years later Stockhausen remains a composer for whom I have the deepest admiration. Like Bach, like Monteverdi, like Beethoven, the music of Stockhausen continues to move me profoundly by the brilliance of its compositional structure and the sometimes wondrous beauty he has created. All I can suggest to people who think Stockhausen was less than the genius he clearly was, is . . . listen harder and more carefully - some day you might get it, and you will be glad when you do!
But back to the main point. Thank you James - you work is very appreciated!

BANE HIM!

BANE HIM!!


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Seriously, it's all in fun... I'm sure...

I'm sure it is

All in fun

uh

What was the question?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 08, 2014, 10:52:29 AM
Hi!
I found this forum just recently (unbelievable that I'm not already a member...) and been trying to read up on this Stockhausen thread.  81 pages!  wow!  Well , it may be awhile before I catch up, but in any case, hello and I'd like to share a new blog I just started devoted to analyzing Stockhausen's music. 

Stockhausen - Sounds in Space:

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/ (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/)

I've done 3 pieces so far, and my goal is to do a blog post on every work.  This will of course never be completed, but heck, aim high.  So far I've done Microphonie I, Mikrophonie II and Carre.  I'm planning to skip around (starting from Chore for Doris seemed a bit boring) so maybe I'll do one on something from Licht next....or not.  Anyways, for some of the people here, they will be nothing new, but I think I was able to add some nice pictures at least :)

Oh yeah, I did a Daily Beethoven blog http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/ (http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/)a couple years ago.  365 posts in 1 year.  Of course being unemployed at the time made that project a bit easier.....

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Rex on May 08, 2014, 03:17:28 PM
Glad to provide a pleasant surprise James  :).  Yes, I'm reasonably familiar with Robin Maconie. I have 2 of his books, attended a lecture he gave on the Helicopter String Quartet a couple of years or more ago, and raised an eyebrow or 2 following his recent contributions in the Stockhausen Forum.

Thanks North Star and EigenUser for your welcomes.

I will check out your site uatu.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Cato on May 08, 2014, 03:41:55 PM
Welcome to Rex and Uatu (any relation to Klaatu?  0:)  )  not only to the Spaceship, but to GMG in general!

Stockhausen (especially in his later works) can be an acquired taste, but it can be acquired!   ;)   Whether one agrees with what one hears depends on many factors.

Yes, James is a one-man Stockhausen advertising agency!

For your consideration: whether the music world has missed a fun, dadaistic element in Stockhausen's music, and whether Stockhausen (similar to Dali) might not have been pulling a good number of stiff legs in his later years!  :o
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 08, 2014, 03:51:28 PM
Hi!
I found this forum just recently (unbelievable that I'm not already a member...) and been trying to read up on this Stockhausen thread.  81 pages!  wow!  Well , it may be awhile before I catch up, but in any case, hello and I'd like to share a new blog I just started devoted to analyzing Stockhausen's music. 

Stockhausen - Sounds in Space:

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/ (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/)

I've done 3 pieces so far, and my goal is to do a blog post on every work.  This will of course never be completed, but heck, aim high.  So far I've done Microphonie I, Mikrophonie II and Carre.  I'm planning to skip around (starting from Chore for Doris seemed a bit boring) so maybe I'll do one on something from Licht next....or not.  Anyways, for some of the people here, they will be nothing new, but I think I was able to add some nice pictures at least :)

Oh yeah, I did a Daily Beethoven blog http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/ (http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/)a couple years ago.  365 posts in 1 year.  Of course being unemployed at the time made that project a bit easier.....
This is really good stuff. I am reading through the "Carre" entry now. I'll have to get a biography on Stockhausen from the library at some point in the future. Any recommendations to keep in mind?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 09, 2014, 06:24:45 AM
Thanks for the Welcomes and checking out my Stockhausen posts.  It provides motivation to do more. 

EigenUser, as far as a good biography I can't think of a definitive one.  At this point they are all out of date, and their might not be one for a long time since Stockhausen's "group" seems to be very hermetic.  I would love it it Kathinka or Suzanne would write one, but they are so much a part of the Stockhausen "myth" that those would probably be kind of 1-sided. 

Robin Maconie has a couple books, but he also editorializes alot.  His new Stockhausen book "Other Planets" is thick, but he goes off on wild tangents.  I was reading his entry on part of Dienstag and he spends 1 paragraph on the music and 2 pages on the black metal band Burzum.  However his earlier book "The Works of Karlheinz Stockhausen" is the best for analyzing Stockhausen's music.  I use that often for my blog.  Unfortunately it's also out of print.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 09, 2014, 06:42:23 AM
For your consideration: whether the music world has missed a fun, dadaistic element in Stockhausen's music, and whether Stockhausen (similar to Dali) might not have been pulling a good number of stiff legs in his later years!  :o

I think of Stockhausen's intentions as being good-humoured, self-deprecating (Momente text uses catcalls his earlier pieces received), and purposefully weird (almost any staging of Licht).  The ending to Donnerstag has a staged "strike" by the wind band, and the director of La Scala and Stockhausen have a fake argument.  Even in the electronic collage Hymnen (Anthems) he includes a recording of himself and the engineer talking about how the next part should go and whether or not it's OK to include the Nazi anthem (!).

I found the operas too weird for my tastes for a long time, and then I started being exposed to Italian B movies of the 70's and I could see where he was coming from.  Also see "Barbarella". 
http://youtu.be/0Xo6FaypcpY (http://youtu.be/0Xo6FaypcpY)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 09, 2014, 01:23:46 PM
This is really good stuff. I am reading through the "Carre" entry now. I'll have to get a biography on Stockhausen from the library at some point in the future. Any recommendations to keep in mind?

Not strictly I biography, but Stockhausen on Music is such an easy reading that it should be read by anyone delving into the composer.

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 09, 2014, 02:34:01 PM
Not strictly I biography, but Stockhausen on Music is such an easy reading that it should be read by anyone delving into the composer.

I have that coming in the mail any day!  Actually some are transcriptions I think of the 70s lectures.  They can all be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWVWhS48b0JCLu-w33-Jvb_weVzoDNbcn (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWVWhS48b0JCLu-w33-Jvb_weVzoDNbcn)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 09, 2014, 02:37:17 PM
That is the ending of the staged version of the 3rd scene of Samstag. Itself a truly amazing multi-layered standalone orchestral concerto divided into 10 groups. Musically, LICHT is just awesome .. and it can be appreciated on this level alone if your not into all of the mystical religious synchronicities etc.. KS does provide options for much of LICHT to function just as music, and on that level alone much of it is successful.

Yeah Samstag and Donnerstag were the first 2 Licht operas I heard, and I still like those 2 the most.  The Farewell (Abschied) in Samstag is a little bit tough to get through tho (chanting monk music) but yeah, the wind band concerto is AWESOME - like Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra times TEN!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 09, 2014, 04:23:42 PM
I have that coming in the mail any day!  Actually some are transcriptions I think of the 70s lectures.  They can all be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWVWhS48b0JCLu-w33-Jvb_weVzoDNbcn (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWVWhS48b0JCLu-w33-Jvb_weVzoDNbcn)

Yes, Maconie transcribed liberally from the films of the lectures. Ubuweb also has the videos, and IIRC in higher quality than YT.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 09, 2014, 04:27:03 PM
The Farewell (Abschied) in Samstag is a little bit tough to get through tho (chanting monk music)

Luzifers-Abschied is one of the (few) bits I truly enjoy in Licht.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: torut on May 09, 2014, 05:28:19 PM
Not strictly I biography, but Stockhausen on Music is such an easy reading that it should be read by anyone delving into the composer.

That is a nice, relatively short book that I remember having been absorbed in reading.

Texte zur Musik Band 1 (a collection of papers written by Stockhausen) is a more academic book (also not a biography) that is a bit difficult for me. I still have not finished reading it.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 09, 2014, 05:50:35 PM
Texte zur Musik Band 1 (a collection of papers written by Stockhausen) is a more academic book (also not a biography) that is a bit difficult for me. I still have not finished reading it.

Well, the Texte are his own collected writings (I have vols. 1-4, since they correspond to the period that most interests me) and interestingly you can find a lot of that content in the liner notes of the SV CDs. It is as technical and "dry" as it gets with Stockhausen, especially given his propensity to abuse and misuse what is otherwise rigorous scientific and technical terminology.

Maconie's Stockhausen on Music does have the merit of opening with an interview that covers some biographical details.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 09, 2014, 06:10:44 PM
Well, the Texte are his own collected writings (I have vols. 1-4, since they correspond to the period that most interests me) and interestingly you can find a lot of that content in the liner notes of the SV CDs. It is as technical and "dry" as it gets with Stockhausen, especially given his propensity to abuse and misuse what is otherwise rigorous scientific and technical terminology.

The Texte are all in German, right?  No English translations for those?  O/w I would be interested in getting those.

Oh BTW - Dienstag's Gruss review is up on my blog.  WAR never sounded so heavenly....
http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-60-dienstags-gruss.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-60-dienstags-gruss.html)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 09, 2014, 06:12:45 PM
Luzifers-Abschied is one of the (few) bits I truly enjoy in Licht.

Really?  That interests me.  How do you approach it?  To me without the visual part it just seems very static and I feel like I'm missing out on something (which I AM).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 09, 2014, 07:00:43 PM
Totally agree.  I remember buying Der Jahreslauf on LP and it was one of the most entertaining things I'd heard in a long while.  Yeah I saw on the calendar that it's being mounted in Japan...tempted.  Do you know if it's being done in the original setting with a Gagaku orchestra?  Because as far as I know that version has never been released on vinyl or CD (or 8-track...). 

I missed Oktophonie as well as Michael's Riese (and Himmels Tur I think).  I did make Gruppen tho with Alan Gilbert.  I saw Gesang and Kontakte a couple years before that.  These days I just don't do shows anymore...tickets are soooo expensive and the performances are usually too quiet for my tastes.  Gruppen disappointed because there was no electric guitar (I think they used a harpsichord instead).  Very disappointed, as I'm a guitarist.  If they mounted a Licht production I would probably go tho.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 10, 2014, 04:44:57 AM
The Texte are all in German, right?  No English translations for those?  O/w I would be interested in getting those.

Right. They have mentioned english translations are in the works, but that announcement has been out there since the late 90s.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 10, 2014, 04:49:37 AM
Really?  That interests me.  How do you approach it?  To me without the visual part it just seems very static and I feel like I'm missing out on something (which I AM).

It helps to follow the unfolding of the text and to keep in mind that Samstag is a gradual opening up of space, culminating in the Abschied. I have no particular approach to it.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 10, 2014, 04:59:56 AM
Der Jahreslauf ... Michaels Reise

I much prefer the version of Der Jahreslauf outside Dienstag and the original Michaels Reise to the one in Donnerstag. To my ears, the revisions and changes done upon integrating those works into the Licht operas diminished their interest.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 10, 2014, 06:21:53 AM
They are actually mounting 2 versions according to the official site. "The Japanese Version", which I assume is for Gagaku orchestra (hopefully it gets recorded, like Michaelion was recorded during the Mittwoch aus LICHT rehearsals). And the version for modern orchestra.

wow - OK, now VERY tempted....

Quote
I saw one of these Armoury performances on the web and it did have an electric guitar.

I had a perfect seat equidistant and I didn't see or hear one.  Maybe that day it was subbed for harpsichord, or maybe it was just a terrible sounding guitar way in the back.  The SV version has an awesome guitar sound!  Alas.  Now I'll have to look for that web broadcast.

I like both versions of Der Jahreslauf.  I guess I tend to give KS the benefit of the doubt alot of times, but in time my opinion might change.  I've only heard the new version once.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 10, 2014, 06:28:39 AM
the soloists version of Michael's Journey (ECM) to all others

That was the one I had in mind. The version he brought into Donnerstag loses quite a bit with the replacement of instrumental parts with synthesizers.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 10, 2014, 07:40:22 AM
That was the one I had in mind. The version he brought into Donnerstag loses quite a bit with the replacement of instrumental parts with synthesizers.

I mixed the two: The replacement of instrumental parts with synthesizers was done in Der Jahreslauf. Compare e.g. the duo for harpsichord and guitar. In the Dienstag version it sounds positively awful.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 10, 2014, 09:55:01 AM
You nailed the section and I positively agree with you regarding it, mix is loud and in your face .. perhaps not as poised and nuanced as the original; but this wart is not enough for me to totally deplore the recording were the performance is overall very strong & exciting. And I like how this Act on that recording transitions into the 2nd Act.

It does make me think about the options (KS loved options) available to performers when mounting it though, for Dienstag does it always have to be synthesizers for that duo (for instance), can real instruments be used if available .. and also the technology has evolved, wondering how it would sound on the best the 21st century has to offer if rendered today.


The instrument list specifies actual guitar, but synthesizer harpsichord. The only real instruments listed are the piccolos, the saxophones and the guitar (aside from percussion). However, listening carefully to the recording, the saxophones also sound very artificial. Even though they are playing in a register that makes their timbre difficult to ascertain, to my ears it still sounds better in the original setting.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 10, 2014, 10:19:30 AM
and I do not mind the use of synthesizers, as I'm a big fan of them

Oh I have nothing against synthesizers, quite the opposite. But I hate those cheesy sounds.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ritter on May 10, 2014, 10:29:58 AM
In terms of recordings, I prefer the soloists version of Michael's Journey (ECM) to all others ..
I too am a big fan of this recording, which I bought about a year ago and played over and over for some time...This downscaled version of Michaels Reise is probably more suited for home listening, I suppose.

Concerning Donnerstag, I have a question that perhaps someone can help me with. A section I find fascinating is Michaels Abschied; hearing this on Piazza della Scala when leaving the theatre, or from the rooftops at Covent Garden, must have been quite an experience!

In the DG / SV recording of Donnerstag, though, it lasts only ca. 10 minutes when, as I understand it, the music should go on for much longer than that.Is this an abridged version of the farewell?

There's a CD on the Deux-Elles label of Jon Wallace playing the Abschied (dubbing himself to play the different parts). Is this a longer version of the piece? The CD has a running time of 57 minutes, and has three other Works (not by Stockhausen) as fillers, but I can't find timings for individual tracks.

(http://www.deux-elles.co.uk/Images/1039_www.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ritter on May 10, 2014, 03:00:44 PM
Thanks for your comment, James! It seems, then, as if the CD I mentioned doesn't really add much to the enjoyment of Michaels Abschied (at least in the sense I meant)...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 10, 2014, 07:12:11 PM
This is very cool, you can view the full score (Orch 1) to Carré here.  View full screen.  Now how do I save this to my computer....?

http://www.universaledition.com/blogdetail/items/stockhausen-carre-orchestra-i (http://www.universaledition.com/blogdetail/items/stockhausen-carre-orchestra-i)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 10, 2014, 08:07:38 PM
This is very cool, you can view the full score (Orch 1) to Carré here.  View full screen.  Now how do I save this to my computer....?

http://www.universaledition.com/blogdetail/items/stockhausen-carre-orchestra-i (http://www.universaledition.com/blogdetail/items/stockhausen-carre-orchestra-i)
Nice! Stockhausen scores are always interesting to look through. He often has very detailed explanations with photos (though, not in the one you posted).

I still haven't heard any work of his that I actually like, but I love 20th-century music history so I find it very interesting and I have been listening to some of his work nonetheless.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 11, 2014, 06:58:22 AM
Try Tierkreis ..

http://www.youtube.com/v/718J9pmDFZM
Thanks! This is the only thing so far that I actually appreciate on a musical level as opposed to a historical one.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 11, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
I'd recommend this one too in addition to Erwachen:

Freude for 2 Harps and 2 Fairies  ;)
http://youtu.be/WoBsPUdBOT0 (http://youtu.be/WoBsPUdBOT0)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ritter on May 11, 2014, 11:43:29 AM
I don't know if EigenUser is familiar with Michael's Journey around the World, but I think that this piece (particularly, the "soloists version" mentioned in previous posts) may help him change his perception of KS's music.  :)



Regards,



Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 11, 2014, 05:08:06 PM
Try Tierkreis ..

http://www.youtube.com/v/718J9pmDFZM
http://youtu.be/HwSKkKrUzUk
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 11, 2014, 06:04:40 PM
I'd recommend this one too in addition to Erwachen:

Freude for 2 Harps and 2 Fairies  ;)
http://youtu.be/WoBsPUdBOT0 (http://youtu.be/WoBsPUdBOT0)
I've heard "Freude" before, actually. I didn't really care for it. The harp writing was beautiful, but I'm not really sold on the theatrics (singing, dress, etc.).

I will take a look at "Michael's Journey...". I'm curious as to why it would change my perspective on Stockhausen. What should I look (listen) for? Anything in particular?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ritter on May 11, 2014, 11:28:36 PM
....I will take a look at "Michael's Journey...". I'm curious as to why it would change my perspective on Stockhausen. What should I look (listen) for? Anything in particular?

I think ritter is just essentially advocating something he likes a lot .. it is a wonderful piece, and the recording is excellent.

Well, ritter would hardly advocate the piece if he didn't like it a lot, now would he?  :D

What I think might be of interest to EigenUser is why I like it so much. I think that in Michael's Journey all those elements that make Stockhausen such a forceful musical personality blend into one astonishing whole. The piece is seductive, it's playful, it's musically interesting and challenging, it's very well paced, its "open to the world" (all those jazzy sounds!  :)), it's dramatic in a theatrical sense. In many late Stockhausen pieces, as Pierre Boulez once pointed out (and Boulez has the highest opinion of Stockhausen--in spite of the occasional clash between both men  :laugh: ) , the composer's inventiveness is not balanced by enough self-criticism, and IMHO the results can be uneven, and sometimes verge on the bizarre (or tedious  ::) ). This is certainly  not the case here: Michael's Journey is both interesting and fun to listen to, even devoid of the visual aspects inherent to the piece (this latter point probably--and IMO, crucially--proving it's strength as music per se).

Cheers,
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 05:50:25 AM
Well, ritter would hardly advocate the piece if he didn't like it a lot, now would he?  :D

What I think might be of interest to EigenUser is why I like it so much. I think that in Michael's Journey all those elements that make Stockhausen such a forceful musical personality blend into one astonishing whole. The piece is seductive, it's playful, it's musically interesting and challenging, it's very well paced, its "open to the world" (all those jazzy sounds!  :)), it's dramatic in a theatrical sense. In many late Stockhausen pieces, as Pierre Boulez once pointed out (and Boulez has the highest opinion of Stockhausen--in spite of the occasional clash between both men  :laugh: ) , the composer's inventiveness is not balanced by enough self-criticism, and IMHO the results can be uneven, and sometimes verge on the bizarre (or tedious  ::) ). This is certainly  not the case here: Michael's Journey is both interesting and fun to listen to, even devoid of the visual aspects inherent to the piece (this latter point probably--and IMO, crucially--proving it's strength as music per se).

Cheers,
Wonderful! Thanks, I'll give it a listen. I heard "Sirius" recently on YouTube and I was intrigued by the jazzy sounds. There was this one (clarinet or basset horn) solo (somewhere in the first half, but I forget) that made me think of jazz.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 12, 2014, 08:03:16 AM
I just can't deal with vocalizing by performers, the one Avant thing that dries up my foam.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 10:45:43 AM
I just can't deal with vocalizing by performers, the one Avant thing that dries up my foam.
Even singers? ;D

I'm almost always the same way, but I have performed a violin/piano version of Ligeti's "Mysteries of the Macabre" and I do love that piece (really it is trumpet/piano, but I played the trumpet part on violin). I think that I accept this one because (1) it is from an opera, so there are places where the vocals are filling in what would otherwise be missing, and (2) it is freakin' hilarious. This is the only exception that there is, though.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 12, 2014, 10:46:50 AM
I just can't deal with vocalizing by performers, the one Avant thing that dries up my foam.

I gotta admit, that does kinda let out the steam for me too, especially if it's male voices.  Nothing says Saturday Night Live avant-garde music parody like classical musicians yelling out "nonsense" words in German intermittently through a performance.  I have the highest respect for Stockhausen, but I personally wish he could've expressed his "ritual" words in a more hidden manner, like so-and-so did with BACH (Bach I think...).  The girls in Freude don't bother me tho...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ritter on May 12, 2014, 11:30:04 AM
I just can't deal with vocalizing by performers, the one Avant thing that dries up my foam.
I too am irritated by these vocal interjections, which IMHO more than an "avant thing", are a "late Stockhausen oddity"  ;) I think Boulez, for instance, would rather jump off a bridge than have a flutist even whisper something in one of his pieces.. ;D

Fortunately, these "vocals" ("eins! zwei! vier! DREIZEEEEHN!"  :D ) are few and far between in Michaels Reise . But, for instance, in the later, pre-synthesizer Klavierstücke, I find them particularly annoying  >:( . I really wish some clever musicologist soon discovers the words "ad libitum" in microscopic print in the manuscripts.   :D
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 12, 2014, 12:26:44 PM
I suppose if one were really desperate they could load the piece into an audio editor and replace all the vocal interjections with shortwave radio noise Hymnen-style.  And then call it the "censored" version.   ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ritter on May 12, 2014, 12:36:55 PM
I suppose if one were really desperate they could load the piece into an audio editor and replace all the vocal interjections with shortwave radio noise Hymnen-style.  And then call it the "censored" version.   ;)
  :laugh: :laugh:
Mmmm...that sounds like a classic case of the cure being worse than the disease, I'm afraid.  ::)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 01:22:32 PM
I suppose if one were really desperate they could load the piece into an audio editor and replace all the vocal interjections with shortwave radio noise Hymnen-style.  And then call it the "censored" version.   ;)
That's hilarious. I always thought that Stockhausen should come with a warning label on the CD >:D ;D .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 12, 2014, 04:24:44 PM
I'm almost always the same way

me too

I too am irritated by these

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I understand. Much thought has gone into vocalizing since it was introduced, and surely everyone's acquainted with the pitfalls, so that what we're seeing is yjay yjere are certain Composers, Aperghis for instance, who- SOMETIMES- hit that queasy mark of perfection- I mean, who has actually written for full Orchestra with all participants perfecting 'intoning' whilst also playing in that certain special way wherein we SENSE that 'vocal' TIMBRE- quite unique in the universe of sound- and INTEGRATED it perfectly into the TAPESTRY of sound.

Ahhhh, where IS this piece??? And,... no, I haven't heard it here yet. Holliger? Lachenmann? no Sciarrino? no Norgard?

The New Ultimate Performer will have to have a beautiful voice along with terrifying instrumental technique. And, yes, their fashion sense will have to be FIERCE! >:D

Diamanda Galas Plays Stockhausen (ECM;2015) ::)

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 12, 2014, 06:39:13 PM
Listening to "Michael's Journey" now. I think that the trumpet's "avant-garde" sound is easier for me to listen to -- probably because I like the Ligeti "Mysteries of the Macabre".

Definitely can do without the vocals.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 12, 2014, 08:15:46 PM
Diamanda Galas Plays Stockhausen (ECM;2015) ::)
LOL, I suppose if she did one of the KLANG works with vocals and electronics that'd be interesting and cool.  I don't think ECM tho!  Actually I met Diamanda after a Shrei X concert.  Very nice person actually and very professional.  She seems crazy at times but she knows exactly what she's doing.

Anyways, here's a fount of free Stockhausen music in case it hasn't been mentioned here before:

http://classical-music-online.net/en/composer/Stockhausen/95 (http://classical-music-online.net/en/composer/Stockhausen/95)

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 13, 2014, 07:28:14 PM
Listening to "Mantra" now. I think that this is the most accessible work of his that I've heard and I actually like it so far. The percussive piano writing reminds me of the Bartok "Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion".

I think that the piece I like the least is "Gruppen". I heard it again yesterday and it does nothing for me. It would be impressive to see live because of the setup, but I don't like how it sounds.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 14, 2014, 08:10:10 AM
Listening to "Mantra" now. I think that this is the most accessible work of his that I've heard and I actually like it so far. The percussive piano writing reminds me of the Bartok "Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion".

I think that the piece I like the least is "Gruppen". I heard it again yesterday and it does nothing for me. It would be impressive to see live because of the setup, but I don't like how it sounds.

The 'Gruppen' on Abbado's DG- I just find it the jolliest music, fresh, alive, and happy. The 'Gruppen' on the new Eotvos disc sounds to me like grim '50s serialism. I've had the same reaction to Maderna, and it seems as though the actual recording process for whatever modern piece is very important- the Abbado/DG is more from an acceptable distance, the Eotvos is pretty well up front and somewhat in your face (though not harshly, just very distributed). I seem to prefer modern music recorded slightly away rather than really in the mix. Either way, 'Gruppen' on DG makes me smile, the other one doesn't. (surely every one else feels the opposite)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: CRCulver on May 14, 2014, 01:09:34 PM
The 'Gruppen' on Abbado's DG- I just find it the jolliest music, fresh, alive, and happy.

Ignorance is bliss, then. If you knew the piece well (follow with a score), you'd find that recording riddled with mistakes. It’s one of the most appalling CDs in my collection. This along with hearing of Kurtág’s disappointment at how little Abbado cared about getting his Stele right, on the same disc, really turned me off the conductor.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 14, 2014, 06:27:59 PM
Ignorance is bliss, then. If you knew the piece well (follow with a score), you'd find that recording riddled with mistakes. It’s one of the most appalling CDs in my collection. This along with hearing of Kurtág’s disappointment at how little Abbado cared about getting his Stele right, on the same disc, really turned me off the conductor.

Surely it's just the DG sound I like? I understand the Eotvos is correct-err- it's just that his acoustic is just a bit tighter than I'd like, and the DG acoustic just sounds (in my head an idealized) 1955 beer hall. My point is- with Beethoven, eventually, you will get enough recordings where you will find one that pleases every aspect of your (one's) particular set of values. With 'Gruppen' we may only get one two or three more recordings in our lifetimes (conservatively), so, what are the chances Eotvos will rerecord the piece for DG according to my fantasy so I can hear the piece and receive it correctly?

Or flippin' Boulez recording 'Gruppen' for Chandos, or whatever- I just wish the Eotvos disk's ambience exploited the spacial element or - something- (ack, it's good and all, but I'm a sucker for DG sound sometimes... I feel it "swallows" KHS's timbres more so I can digest the proceedings better?).

No one's arguing Abbado's competency... DG sounds good for the wicked and the righteous alike.


Anyhow, I took Abbado for a spin and got most of the way through. KHS's playfulness still came through for me in spots,... and the play of the groups, almost as a fun kid's game, was apparent. The spacial element was somewhat discernible... the acoustic helped AND hindered here (typically cavernous DG- I know I know I just said I liked it!).

I know the 'electric' guitar isn't really, and, yea, sure,... I don't know it's so hard for me to be anal about Harry.

Let's get a Chailly/Concertgeboow,... Salonen/LA,... everybody... Dudamel Plays Stockhausen... Ling Ling Plays Stockhausen... Bernstein/NY $:)

I Will Judge No Stockhausen Before Its Time (Paul Masson)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 14, 2014, 06:38:41 PM
Gruppen is one of my favorite pieces, it's pretty intense. And Mantra is a bonafide masterpiece.

So we can verify that you like Tierkreis (for orchestra), Mantra and Michaels Reise.

There will probably be others in the future, especially from the later work (for reasons stated earlier).

Keep exploring and listening, this stuff can definitely grow on you!

[...]

Well, perhaps I should say that I tolerated "Michael's Reise". It had some things that kept my attention, but it didn't click (yet :)). I definitely like "Tierkreis", though. Very pleasant sounding, in fact. It's also fairly short and there's enough happening to keep me interested throughout the piece.

I think that "Cosmic Pulses" is cool sounding, but it's more that I like the 'sound-effect'. I can't say that I hear it as music. Probably because I generally don't like electronic sounds.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 14, 2014, 07:24:06 PM
Did you try this one ..

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3533.msg800600.html#msg800600


James lives in a tower and whenever someone Posts on his Thread a bell rings in the upper chamber and James travels down the flight of Frankenstein stairs to the Computer Room, KHS cape billowing. We know it's you behind that silly mask, james! ;) "You rang?"
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 14, 2014, 07:40:46 PM
Did you try this one ..

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3533.msg800600.html#msg800600

Missed that one. Just started it.

James lives in a tower and whenever someone Posts on his Thread a bell rings in the upper chamber and James travels down the flight of Frankenstein stairs to the Computer Room, KHS cape billowing. We know it's you behind that silly mask, james! ;) "You rang?"
lol :laugh:
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 15, 2014, 04:23:25 AM
I think that "Cosmic Pulses" is cool sounding, but it's more that I like the 'sound-effect'. I can't say that I hear it as music. Probably because I generally don't like electronic sounds.

I like electronic sounds but frankly I don't like the sounds KS chose for his later works.  I'm sure this must've been discussed here before, but his synth patches are kind of dated sounding.  It's too bad he didn't choose to record a violin playing all the notes of Cosmic Pulses and then use the computer to do all the spacial panning and "speeding up".  Or even a Garritan sampler, those sound great!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 02:24:19 PM
I like electronic sounds but frankly I don't like the sounds KS chose for his later works.  I'm sure this must've been discussed here before, but his synth patches are kind of dated sounding.  It's too bad he didn't choose to record a violin playing all the notes of Cosmic Pulses and then use the computer to do all the spacial panning and "speeding up".  Or even a Garritan sampler, those sound great!
They are definitely different. I don't really care for either, but for some reason I find the later ones easier to listen to. All I can think of with the earlier sound (i.e. "Kontakte") is a dial-up modem. The metallic percussive sound of "Cosmic Pulses" is more interesting I think -- plus, the structure of the piece isn't hard to follow. While I'm sure that "Kontakte" is organized, I can't hear it well. Maybe that shouldn't bother me, but it does  :-\.

Missed that one. Just started it.
Ehh, didn't care for this one. By the way James, thanks for the recommendation of "Tierkreis". It is really a great piece. Is it considered one of his more obscure works? It isn't praised like "Kontakte" or "Gruppen" (or, at least, doesn't seem to be).

Do you collect scores of his, or just recordings? I might (in the future) get the score.

Also, why is there early applause in the YouTube recording?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 04:27:01 PM
Tierkreis is one his most popular & recorded works actually, 12 melodies or tunes, and material from it was used as the basis for many different versions and compositions through his life  .. (KS really knew how to use his material and could realize almost infinite possibilities). In fact, you mention you had listened to Sirius recently .. well, the seed material for that vast theater piece is Tierkreis's melodies .. and it occurs throughout every layer of that work's amazing polyphonic structure, including the electronic score that accompanies the 4 live performers.

I don't collect scores. There is applause because it is a live recording.

Yeah, but then they start playing again...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Rex on May 15, 2014, 09:29:03 PM
I love nearly all of Stockhausen's electronic music. It was an LP of Gesang der Jünglinge and Kontakte that had by some miracle found its way to the only local classical music record shop in New Plymouth, NZ, way back in 1966 that completely amazed my young schoolboy mind. I had never heard anything like it, and it excited me in he same way that Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues, Beethoven's last 3 sonatas, Verdi's Requiem and Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire did. Visions of new worlds I had never dreamt of.

I still think those 2 works are remarkable, and beautiful, and they remain fresh every time I hear them. I have suggested to some friends who found them incomprehensible that they need to stop listening to them as what they think is 'music'. Our notions of music have been so heavily conditioned by the one language we hear constantly all around us, of the 12 tone tempered scale, melody, harmony and rhythm. (Even to the birds that system is alien. We only need to listen to how mutated, if not mutilated, birdsong becomes when Messiaen attempts to constrict it into our tempered tonality!) Rather listen to it as great aural landscapes. This cue has been useful to some people, not so  much to others.

Other electronic works I love include the epic Hymnen, and so many parts of Licht. The background electronic music of Act II of Dienstag is amazing - terrifying, awesomely beautiful, pulverising. And for all its horror somehow inspires the deepest humanity, a profound abhorrence of the abomination that war is. Mittwochs-Gruss, that seems to me to have a sternness, but a gentleness that has a palliative affect after the devastation of Dienstag. I love the massive circling soundscapes that Stockhausen creates. Here they become enfolding, embracing, comforting, hopeful. Freitags-Gruss is also electronic music and I've only listened to this a couiple of times. It sounds to me very gentle, and quite beautiful.

Cosmic Pulses is also an immensely powerful, over-whelming listening experiencing. (I have to admit I cheat with these electronic pieces that were written for more than 2 channels. My music system has a function that allows an 'artificial' 5-channel separation, and miraculously it creates the effect of the sounds of Cosmic Pulses swirling and swooping around me. How close this is to Stockhausen's original sound movement I have no idea, probably not very faithful, but it certainly shows me how significant the movement in space is to the effectiveness of these works). I don't find the electronic sounds Stockhausen uses in any way problematic, and suspect that there is a kind of 'authenticity' in his use of purely electronic sources. I don't find these sounds any more dated or effete then for instance the sounds of the piano, or the violin, or the flute, which have changed but little over the past 200 years and more.

One thing that is certainly true is that this is not music for 'background' listening. You have to give all your concentration into the music to be able to be taken where it wants to take you.

And then there's the use of live electronics . . . . another extraordinary world again, where once again Stockhausen was a pioneer of genius and has left us with so many wonderful works. LOL - I suspect I have raved enough. I could go on for a very long time.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 16, 2014, 12:47:23 PM
Nicely put Rex!  You have a good point, DX-7 sounds sound no more dated than a Steinway does on a purely semantic level.  I guess for me the sounds I characterize as "dated" remind me too much of synth patches prevalent in 80s pop music.  Why does piano not bother me as much then?  Not because I like Billy Joel (tho I don't hate him either) but because piano had a lifetime that came before KS, whereas Yamaha DX-7 sounds were something that came out as new technology, and then faded from sight.. until it resurfaced on KS' work.  For that reason, those sounds immediately correlate to that relatively brief moment in time that popular music used (abused) those sounds.  Sounds like those used in Kontakte seem more timeless to me because they were not first used in pop music and then co-opted by electronic classical composition.  They were new, and remained in the arena of avant-garde. 

In any case, I don't HATE the LICHT sounds, I really appreciate the structural ideas, I just wish I wasn't personally distracted by the back of my mind going "oh that synth patch was first used in Wang Chung's debut album..."
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Rex on May 16, 2014, 10:57:42 PM
I have to admit, uatu, that I kind of lost touch with pop music after the 70's, so I don't suffer from the same associations you mention. Another case of ignorance is bliss perhaps  :P

I also confess that despite my enthusiasms, there is some of Stockhausen's music I don't get. Sirius is an example. The beginning of it inevitably conjures pictures of Buck Rogers spaceships for me.

I also haven't managed to enjoy the Helicopter Quartet (despite a recording, the video, and downloads of the Birmingham and recent French productions). However I think that attending a production of Mittwoch might create a very different experience of it. I think as a piece of theatre in the middle of that opera it must be pretty amazing.

It was interesting to read the comments about Luzifers Abscheid in Samstag. I love that! The clattering of the clogs in the cavernous cathedral acoustic, the chanting and shouting, the bells, tamtam, organ and trombones, the smashing of the coconuts. I would love to experience that in a live performance! My biggest regret last year was that a visit to Munich for my niece's wedding was in October - not 4 months earlier!

The Engel-Prozessionen from Sonntag is another Licht ritual that I find exquisitely beautiful.

I like what you're doing with your site uatu - keep it up!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 17, 2014, 04:40:57 AM
I have to admit, uatu, that I kind of lost touch with pop music after the 70's, so I don't suffer from the same associations you mention. Another case of ignorance is bliss perhaps  :P

I don't think it is a case of pop music associations. To my ears, the synthesizer sounds on Licht and Klang are for the most part flat and lifeless. Now, the electronic music of Freitag and Mittwoch, that's a whole different matter.

I also confess that despite my enthusiasms, there is some of Stockhausen's music I don't get. Sirius is an example. The beginning of it inevitably conjures pictures of Buck Rogers spaceships for me.

Sirius does nothing to me either, even though I have seen it live in 1990. In terms of synthesizer sounds, despite the use of the big EMS Synthi-100 machine to create the electronic music, it sounds (again) much flatter than his much livelier and much more engaging Hymnen and Kontakte, two works I deeply enjoy (well, Kontakte with soloists, since the tape-only version sounds a bit disconnected).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 17, 2014, 05:11:15 AM
I think that it would be awesome to sit through a live performance of "Cosmic Pulses" with the correct speaker setup. I can be pretty jumpy, so I'd probably be looking all over the place since the "pulses" bounce from one speaker to the next, I assume.

Edit: Listening to the beginning of it now from YouTube. Even on my laptop speakers the panning sounds make me want to keep looking from one side to the other!

Unfortunately, I think it gets old after a few minutes.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 17, 2014, 06:30:57 AM
What do you think of Kathinka's Gesang, the version with 6-channel electronics? I love it, and actually prefer it to the version that is used in Samstag.

It's an interesting piece, with the flute gestures imitating some tape manipulation processes in some of the exercises. IIRC it is the only one where Stockhausen used computer-generated sounds. The glissandi and phasing effects are occasionally a bit too thin (very FM-like) for my tastes, making me think of what would come in later works, but it works well overall. That piece is the main reason I got that SV CD.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 17, 2014, 06:34:09 AM
At long last I've updated Stockhausen Sounds in Space with pretty complete (I think) coverage of Der Jahreslauf. Will probably wrap up Dienstag in the next update with the space battle scene, and then move way back to something from the 50s....

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-47-der-jahreslauf.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-47-der-jahreslauf.html)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FZj0zGCH9to/U3PDLuK8aoI/AAAAAAAAFKk/_AiV_yTsh9A/s1600/Verlag_Score_Large_134.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 17, 2014, 07:00:30 AM
But from my point of view .. Oktophonie is one of his real successes in electronic music and up there with the best (i.e. Kontakte, Hymnen). It's full of life, power and excitement .. I just have never found it dull whatsoever.

I certainly wouldn't put Oktophonie in the same league as Kontakte or Hymnen, but yes, it isn't so bad... At least the thin and tinny synthesizer sounds are woven in more substantial textures, although it starts going downhill in part 2, from Jenseits onward. Also, Klangbombes notwithstanding, I sometimes wish it was less bombastic ;).
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 17, 2014, 07:15:42 AM
The jazz guys do it .. (i.e. Jarrett), even Gould did it (not as bad).
Yeah, apparently Gould would hum or sing what he was playing while he was playing. I read that the recording engineers had a very difficult time working with him.

By the way, the Wikipedia articles on Stockhausen's works are really nicely done -- some of the best I've come across for any composer, and definitely the best for any postwar composer. Very informative and interesting with a lot of visuals. I wish that Ligeti's entries were like that, yet they don't even come close. Much of his work doesn't even have a page at all.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 17, 2014, 07:27:53 AM
It's an interesting piece, with the flute gestures imitating some tape manipulation processes in some of the exercises. IIRC it is the only one where Stockhausen used computer-generated sounds. The glissandi and phasing effects are occasionally a bit too thin (very FM-like) for my tastes, making me think of what would come in later works, but it works well overall. That piece is the main reason I got that SV CD.
I think I agree here. 
The raison d'etre of the electronic version is the different phasing rotations, and on a personal level I couldn't find much pleasure in counting phasing waves....whereas the original version has some interesting homemade percussion instruments, which appeals to me alot more, at least on a surface level.   An interesting experiment, but ultimately a work in progress leading to, as you say, later works.  Of course, I haven't heard it in 6-channel surround, so maybe that's an issue. 
Boy, I kind of regret missing Oktophonie at the Armory now....at the time I had other rods in the fire.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 17, 2014, 07:31:54 AM
Nice. I'm adding your blog to my favorites.

Thanks!  But now I'll have to keep it accurate... ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 17, 2014, 12:12:11 PM
From Moritz's site ..

Still does very little to me.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 17, 2014, 12:26:39 PM
The jazz guys do it .. (i.e. Jarrett), even Gould did it (not as bad). But yea .. one clear example of it within KS's work where it kind of irks me because I love the music (and I wish he didn't call for it when things are performed unstaged, standalone) is specifically Klavierstuck 12, 13 & 14.
But there is a categorical difference.  KHS wanted his performers to vocalize.  Bach did not.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 17, 2014, 04:45:31 PM
It may do very little for you, but it's killer music.

That assertion, like the extensive description by Al Moritz, has little bearing beyond being just another data point that might sometime be taken into consideration.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 18, 2014, 04:22:39 AM
hey petrarch .. you experience Oktophonie or any-of the other octophonic (cube set-up) works in the flesh?

No, I haven't. I had tickets for Cosmic Pulses in NYC, which was going to open with Weltraum/Freitags-Gruss, a piece I was quite looking forward to listen to live, but then... Sandy happened.

And can you correctly place these ..
                       

The first one sounds like a moment from Hymnen, when bird sounds are transformed into sounds of people. The other one sounds like Tierkreis in the version for music boxes.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 21, 2014, 08:03:50 AM
Stockhausen's legendary Klavierstück (excerpt)

http://www.youtube.com/v/8TFwujEGMyY

Published on May 20, 2014
Marc Ponthus plays Stockhausen


My new nickname for KHS = MITTENS! :laugh:
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 23, 2014, 01:06:48 PM
Quote
in the top row, you will find Stockhausen nestled between Lenny Bruce and W.C. Fields
nestled between two comedians.  perhaps a sly comment on the part of the Beatles?

Quote
One hopes that recordings of this music, made available at prices that average listeners can afford
Which is common sense.  Are the persons who hold the rights more interested in making money off a limited cult-like following--sort of like Scientology without the ethical problems of the latter--or getting people to know KHS's music.  Random Youtubes are not the best way to listen to anyone's music.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 23, 2014, 01:27:30 PM
Jeffrey .. if physical media (recordings) were more widely available at affordable prices would you consume more of it?

I would certainly be more inclined to experiment with it.

As it is,  the only "cheap"  recordings I know of consist of an EMI double CD which no one seems to mention, and a DG recording of Gruppen that people don't seem to like that much.  Are there other non StockhausenVerlag CDs available?  (I know the Klavierstucke are available, but nothing I've heard of them has led me to get more of them.)

ETA:  Hmm, there seem to several available on Wergo, but at prices that don't invite speculative buying.   What is your opinion of them?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 23, 2014, 01:54:08 PM
Sure there are. Have you looked? And it doesn't get more definitive than a major composer running his very own recording label and having complete control over all of the parameters that go into the releases he wishes to put out into the world. Sure the prices may be higher than average, but the releases are very good quality and you get what you pay for. And I'm sure members here who have a lot of them can vouch for them too.

well, yes......but I'm not going to sink more money than I need to to give experimental listens to works by a composer from whom I have yet to hear a single piece I'd be interested in hearing again.   So for now the SV recordings are will safely be passed over.   Which leads me to repeat the question I asked before (which perhaps you missed because it was an edited-in afterthought)--what do you think of the Wergo and EMI recordings?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on May 23, 2014, 03:16:07 PM
If I may be permitted to interject some suggestions from my modest Stockhausen collection, these three discs give a good idea of the composer's priorities at the time the works in question were written, and should not be too expensive to acquire:


A much better Gruppen than the Abbado version on DG, combined with a Licht-era revision of the early Punkte



Early chamber music, played as well as you'd expect from Ensemble Recherche.



A sort of trumpet concerto for the composer's son Markus, extracted from Michael's journey around the world in Donnerstag aus Licht. Gives a good idea of the musical language of the earlier Licht operas.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 23, 2014, 05:21:03 PM
Edward, thank you.   
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2014, 06:04:51 AM
Stockhausen's legendary Klavierstück (excerpt)

http://www.youtube.com/v/8TFwujEGMyY

Published on May 20, 2014
Marc Ponthus plays Stockhausen


Absolute rubbish.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mirror Image on May 24, 2014, 06:36:20 AM
It's a fabulous performance of a monumental piano solo .. too bad it didn't have the entire solo there. I got my eye on Marc Ponthus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Ponthus) now, whoa he's good .. hope he's able to record these groundbreaking piano works and release them on disc one day to cherish over and over. I love Stockhausen's piano solos, they are my favorite.

Said GMG's Stockhausen advocate.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: ChamberNut on May 24, 2014, 07:50:23 AM
Yesterday, I sampled some of Stockhausen's Helicopter Quartet (Arditti Qt.)

Reaction:   :blank:
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 24, 2014, 09:20:36 AM
The Wergos I already know of, the others go on the list.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: torut on May 24, 2014, 09:46:09 AM
I don't have many, but Winant/Tenney's Kontakte is my favorite non-SV CD. It gives me surreal and warm feelings at the same time.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0000/245/MI0000245815.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 24, 2014, 11:33:07 AM
Absolute rubbish.
I don't really get this either, but don't you think it is interesting to see?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2014, 12:55:02 PM
It's a fabulous performance of a monumental piano solo .. too bad it didn't have the entire solo there. I got my eye on Marc Ponthus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Ponthus) now, whoa he's good .. hope he's able to record these groundbreaking piano works and release them on disc one day to cherish over and over. I love Stockhausen's piano solos, they are my favorite.

There's a fabulous recording of the first two Boulez sonatas by Marc Ponthus, who I also like.

I'm about to put David Tudor's recording of the Stockhausen klavierstucke on symphonyshare, if anyone's a member I hope they'll try it, I think the extremely physical approach is interesting. The recording includes 4 different performances of XI.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 24, 2014, 04:44:44 PM
And uatu & Rex are probably intimately familiar with his massive & complex output too. Maybe next month I'll start a weekly .. "guess the Stockhausen work"  trivia thing .

I missed your quiz post...boy this thread really goes in spurts.  Nothing for a couple days, then a Klavierstucke gets posted and boom - critics! ;)
Yeah bring on the quiz, I'm pretty weak on the last 4 operas, but prior to that I think that'd be a fun challenge. 

Speaking of SV, I just got SV 6 - Zyklus/Refrain/Kontakte and SV 88 - Balance & Gluck.  Yes, a bit pricey, but when I opened up my package and saw what was included...well it's worth it, man.  SV 6 comes with a 180 page book!  So yes, the SV editions are expensive, but you get what you pay for.  SV 88 (KLANG 7,8) didn't come with a flat spine book, but did come with a bi-lingual booklet with full-color pictures and copious notes on the compositions and their structure.  The cover is a drawing by the composer himself of an "aha" moment and was originally a Xmas gift to one of his compatriots. 

Another thing to consider is that these are imports and the postage and packaging is included in the price (actually a per order fee is charged for airmail if you're overseas apparently).  Bottom line, you get definitive composer-approved recordings with more text notes than you can shake a college thesis at, coming from overseas in sturdy packaging. 

I suppose the other problem is that this makes it difficult for people unfamiliar with Stockhausen to get into his works.  I mean you can buy many a no-name contemporary composer's stuff on NAXOS for 9.99, so why bother with the expensive imported Stockhausen stuff?  I guess it's like, why buy fine French Wine when I can drink Cosco/Grocery store wine?  I think once one develops a taste for Stockhausen it makes it hard to go back. 

Personally there are only a few composers whose work I consistently listen to: Beethoven, Debussy, Stockhausen.  That's it.  (OK, I'll add Stravinsky in there, but he's not as consistent as the other 3 I think.)  To me those 3 guys are the geniuses of European art music.  Leonard Bernstein said about Beethoven 'he never fails you, you can trust that you're in good hands' or something to that effect.    I feel the same way about LvB, Debussy and KS.  It may take some work, but once you "get" him...well the Stockhausen courses in Germany DID get 160 students last year, and this is even 7 years after he died.  He's probably more popular now than in the last 15 years, judging by how many performances are scheduled around the world. 

Not all music is worth 16.99.  Some are worth more....

(Actually one of the main raisons d'être of my blog is to "explain" Stockhausen's music and ways to approach it from an uninitiated perspective.  Diving deep into these things also reveals many amazing things I never realized before as well, so it's not totally altruistic :))

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/ (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on May 25, 2014, 06:08:18 AM
Speaking of SV, I just got SV 6 - Zyklus/Refrain/Kontakte and SV 88 - Balance & Gluck.  Yes, a bit pricey, but when I opened up my package and saw what was included...well it's worth it, man.  SV 6 comes with a 180 page book!  So yes, the SV editions are expensive, but you get what you pay for.  SV 88 (KLANG 7,8) didn't come with a flat spine book, but did come with a bi-lingual booklet with full-color pictures and copious notes on the compositions and their structure.  The cover is a drawing by the composer himself of an "aha" moment and was originally a Xmas gift to one of his compatriots. 

Good for you, enjoy the ride... I lost count of how many SV CDs I have ;). That, the scores and the books, it's certainly an engaging adventure.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: listener on May 27, 2014, 05:20:43 AM
someone else on S.---  Tim Page in the New York Review of Books
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/gallery/2014/may/23/stockhausen-moment/
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 27, 2014, 09:12:06 AM
My newest blog entry is up INVASION – EXPLOSION, Oktophonie, Pieta, from Act 2 of Dienstag aus LICHT:

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-61-invasion-explosion-mit-abschied.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-61-invasion-explosion-mit-abschied.html)

Here's something interesting I learned:  On CD Stockhausen translates the 3 dimensional 8-channel sound space into a 2-channel stereo mix using some very novel ideas.  In order to create rotating sound events (left-right/front-back) he causes different amounts of phase shifting to occur as sounds come around the front or the back while moving horizontally.  Phase shifting occurs when a speaker set up is wired "backwards", and the stereo field sounds "wrong".  By changing the proportional amount of "wrongness" during a sound's duration, Stockhausen simulates a feeling of changing depth.  In order to translate the horizontal (up-down) movements of 3 dimensional space into stereo, Stockhausen increases the brightness of the sound as it goes higher in space.  He noticed this effect when birds would fly up or down outside his window

Personally I never got this to really work without using a good bit of imagination.  Anybody else?  Some guys at Huddersfield in the paper they wrote about Oktophonie said it didn't really work for them either.  Stockhausen says to use a 4 speaker set up home, but frankly that's just too much work. ::)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 27, 2014, 09:15:28 AM
Yesterday, I sampled some of Stockhausen's Helicopter Quartet (Arditti Qt.)

Reaction:   :blank:

Maybe it's better if we climb aboard? . . .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 09:44:45 AM
Maybe it's better if we climb aboard? . . .

How dare you Post here when we've got work to do in the other Thread!! chop chop!! :laugh:
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 27, 2014, 09:46:21 AM
A passing helicopter wafted me here . . . .
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 27, 2014, 10:07:34 AM
How dare you Post here when we've got work to do in the other Thread!! chop chop!! :laugh:
Richard Karl, go compose!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: edward on May 27, 2014, 03:31:59 PM
Maybe it's better if we climb aboard? . . .
To be fair, I don't think the Helikopter-Quartett is a good work to judge Stockhausen by. I'd regard it as one of his weakest efforts.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: amw on May 27, 2014, 07:05:07 PM
According to a few people I know who attended the Mittwoch premiere, "oh my god, suddenly the Helikopter-Streichquartett makes sense now!". However they were also raving about camels and trombones and planets so I didn't take them too seriously.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 27, 2014, 07:09:33 PM
My newest blog entry is up INVASION – EXPLOSION, Oktophonie, Pieta, from Act 2 of Dienstag aus LICHT:

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-61-invasion-explosion-mit-abschied.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-61-invasion-explosion-mit-abschied.html)

Here's something interesting I learned:  On CD Stockhausen translates the 3 dimensional 8-channel sound space into a 2-channel stereo mix using some very novel ideas.  In order to create rotating sound events (left-right/front-back) he causes different amounts of phase shifting to occur as sounds come around the front or the back while moving horizontally.  Phase shifting occurs when a speaker set up is wired "backwards", and the stereo field sounds "wrong".  By changing the proportional amount of "wrongness" during a sound's duration, Stockhausen simulates a feeling of changing depth.  In order to translate the horizontal (up-down) movements of 3 dimensional space into stereo, Stockhausen increases the brightness of the sound as it goes higher in space.  He noticed this effect when birds would fly up or down outside his window

Personally I never got this to really work without using a good bit of imagination.  Anybody else?  Some guys at Huddersfield in the paper they wrote about Oktophonie said it didn't really work for them either.  Stockhausen says to use a 4 speaker set up home, but frankly that's just too much work. ::)
In principle, that should work, but perhaps the precise technique was wrong. Essentially what is needed is the creation of the illusion of a Doppler effect in the sound waves as the source of the sound seems to move.  I will leave it to someone who knows about sound engineering to determine if KHS was right.  I think he was only partially right about the birds.  From I have noticed (admittedly I have not studied the matter) the brightness effect is related more to distance from the listener than relstive height.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 27, 2014, 07:16:37 PM
According to a few people I know who attended the Mittwoch premiere, "oh my god, suddenly the Helikopter-Streichquartett makes sense now!". However they were also raving about camels and trombones and planets so I didn't take them too seriously.
Yes, there is a camel that defecates planets and a trombonist playing a solo in a kiddie-pool. :blank:
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: amw on May 27, 2014, 07:28:16 PM
Yes, there is a camel that defecates planets and a trombonist playing a solo in a kiddie-pool. :blank:

My advice—the next time someone offers you weird mushrooms, don't eat them.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 28, 2014, 03:45:30 AM
To be fair, I don't think the Helikopter-Quartett is a good work to judge Stockhausen by. I'd regard it as one of his weakest efforts.

That is fair.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 28, 2014, 04:10:07 AM
Very cool, thanks.
...
I'd love to experience true Octophonic sound in the flesh! And experiencing this Act live would be a trip.


You and me both!  Ideally with Gagaku orchestra for Act 1 and wireless transmitters for the second Act.  Again, I really regret not going to Oktophonie last year...what was I thinking?

James do you know anything about the structure of the Signals?  As far as I can tell there's no real "formula" to the voice/brass/synth outbursts.  I know it's all scored, since there's a version of Signals for solo trombone, but I gotta admit, all the shouting seems a bit improvisatory....
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 28, 2014, 04:13:25 AM
In principle, that should work, but perhaps the precise technique was wrong. Essentially what is needed is the creation of the illusion of a Doppler effect in the sound waves as the source of the sound seems to move.  I will leave it to someone who knows about sound engineering to determine if KHS was right.  I think he was only partially right about the birds.  From I have noticed (admittedly I have not studied the matter) the brightness effect is related more to distance from the listener than relstive height.

I'm tempted to try the part about phase reversal on my own.  Using Audacity or any other simple audio editor it's very easy to phase reverse a tone.  I could just take a sine wave and vary the phase reversal mix...if I do I'll try to post it here. 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 28, 2014, 02:26:29 PM
A good person to ask is Jerry Kohl over at the Stockhausen Forum, he really knows the technical/musical details well.

I've lurked there a bit.  That Maconie fellow is a bit scary... ::)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leo K. on May 28, 2014, 03:47:12 PM
I've been listening to Stockhausen's Gruppen fur 3 Orchester and Punkte the last few days. This is my first listen to Stockhausen and I'm floored. Why did I wait so long to listen?!?! This stuff is EXACTLY my cup of tea.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 29, 2014, 04:26:19 AM
I've been listening to Stockhausen's Gruppen fur 3 Orchester and Punkte the last few days. This is my first listen to Stockhausen and I'm floored. Why did I wait so long to listen?!?! This stuff is EXACTLY my cup of tea.

Yeah, those are both great.  I just re-listened to Punkte yesterday by coincidence.  It's not played as often as it should be.  I'd also highly recommend Jubilee if you like those 2 pieces.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leo K. on May 29, 2014, 09:01:50 AM
Yeah, those are both great.  I just re-listened to Punkte yesterday by coincidence.  It's not played as often as it should be.  I'd also highly recommend Jubilee if you like those 2 pieces.

I'll definitely check Jubilee out, thanks for the heads up! I was listening to Punkte again this morning, such a fantastic work, it sets loose my imagination. Aces!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 29, 2014, 12:41:59 PM
In a spurt of productivity I was able to blast out a write up on REFRAIN, a beautiful piece with lots of slow, violent metallic textures for 3 performers:

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-11-refrain.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-11-refrain.html)


A nice live version can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iO4zGnVD3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iO4zGnVD3s)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 29, 2014, 05:48:46 PM
In a spurt of productivity I was able to blast out a write up on REFRAIN, a beautiful piece with lots of slow, violent metallic textures for 3 performers:

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-11-refrain.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-11-refrain.html)


A nice live version can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iO4zGnVD3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iO4zGnVD3s)
Nice! This was the piece being rehearsed in a BBC special I saw on Stockhausen. You may have inspired me to update my section on the beginner's board. I've been lazy about it recently.

Do you plan on "Gruppen" anytime soon? I would be very interested in seeing an explanation of that. I'm listening to it now and it makes no sense to me, which only makes me want to decode even more.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 30, 2014, 05:32:02 AM
Nice! This was the piece being rehearsed in a BBC special I saw on Stockhausen. You may have inspired me to update my section on the beginner's board. I've been lazy about it recently.

Do you plan on "Gruppen" anytime soon? I would be very interested in seeing an explanation of that. I'm listening to it now and it makes no sense to me, which only makes me want to decode even more.

I haven't seen that BBC special in a awhile, thanks for reminding me since I don't remember hardly any of it!

Speaking of Gruppen I was just at the library yesterday looking at Jonathan Harvey's Stockhausen book and he has a really complicated section of Gruppen, explaining all sorts of formulas and things like that.  Personally, while I respect the math-ey stuff, it sometimes feels like it's more trouble than it's worth.  At the same time I'd hate to do a too much of a surface job, since that's such a famous piece.  So it may be a little while...  Gruppen probably made no sense to me at first listen also, but I was grabbed by the electric guitar solo, the brass battle (like Respighi on acid) and the famous brass "moving around the room" sequence.  I like the percussion solo too, had a little bit of Varese there...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 30, 2014, 07:39:16 AM
I haven't seen that BBC special in a awhile, thanks for reminding me since I don't remember hardly any of it!

Speaking of Gruppen I was just at the library yesterday looking at Jonathan Harvey's Stockhausen book and he has a really complicated section of Gruppen, explaining all sorts of formulas and things like that.  Personally, while I respect the math-ey stuff, it sometimes feels like it's more trouble than it's worth.  At the same time I'd hate to do a too much of a surface job, since that's such a famous piece.  So it may be a little while...  Gruppen probably made no sense to me at first listen also, but I was grabbed by the electric guitar solo, the brass battle (like Respighi on acid) and the famous brass "moving around the room" sequence.  I like the percussion solo too, had a little bit of Varese there...
The part with the brass "you're surrounded" effect is awesome. That is the only part that grabbed me so far. I think I've heard it five times over the course of the past year, and I'll keep coming back to it.

When you do get to "Gruppen", I'm sure it will be well-done. People who struggle to understand something (or at least don't get it right away) tend to do a better job of explaining since they can relate better to the audience.

This is the interview I was talking about. Very nicely done.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p013s7xf/music-masters-stockhausen

There's one on YouTube where Stockhausen gave the interviewer precisely 12 minutes, but the guy was an idiot and Stockhausen simply (literally) stood up and left early. It was actually a hilarious and awkward interview even though there was really no information to be gained. I got the impression that the guy had no respect for Stockhausen, or at least didn't do much research beforehand. There were so many parts that made me laugh out loud.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 30, 2014, 11:46:58 AM
Blast it.  The BBC won't let a Yank watch it from the colonies.  I may have it on a disc somewhere.  I really may not have seen it because I would remember Hazlewood talking about KS.  Hazlewood's docs on Beethoven were pretty great, and his orchestra is not half bad.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 30, 2014, 11:51:46 AM
Yea Refrain is a good one .. I especially love the SV recording of it coupled with the greatest recording/mix of Kontakte (imo) and an awesome Zyklus. CD6 is one of the best offerings within the label. Highest recommendations.

Yeah, that's the one I just got last week.  I wasn't sure if it was necessary since I already have 4 versions of Refrain, about that many of Zyklus and Kontakte (with instrumentalists) already - but I'm glad I pulled the trigger since I totally agree with your opinion of the mix.  Actually KS states that the Refrain mix is bungled and the vocal parts are too quiet, but I actually prefer it here where they're more "in the mix" than "in your face" like some of the other recordings.  Yeah, 5 stars all around for this one, 180 page book included for just 2 extra euros.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 30, 2014, 01:55:31 PM
Blast it.  The BBC won't let a Yank watch it from the colonies.  I may have it on a disc somewhere.  I really may not have seen it because I would remember Hazlewood talking about KS.  Hazlewood's docs on Beethoven were pretty great, and his orchestra is not half bad.
Hmmm... I'm in the colonies (lol), too, but I was able to see it. I have used UK-based proxies which make it easy to listen to the "composer of the week" podcasts. That being said, I didn't have to use a proxy to see the link I posted. Try it with a proxy (Google something like 'uk web proxies') and see if it makes a difference.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on May 30, 2014, 05:35:24 PM
Hmmm... I'm in the colonies (lol), too, but I was able to see it. I have used UK-based proxies which make it easy to listen to the "composer of the week" podcasts. That being said, I didn't have to use a proxy to see the link I posted. Try it with a proxy (Google something like 'uk web proxies') and see if it makes a difference.

OK, that's interesting, I never knew about these!  Sadly it's still not working, either the proxy server doesn't have javascript enabled or the iPlayer just stays black.  Thanks anyways.  I wonder if my library might have it.  I definitely have not seen this...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on May 30, 2014, 05:54:33 PM
I was trying to download it so I could put up a DropBox link or something like that for you, but there is no obvious way to do so (not surprising). If it just stays black, it could be that you are missing a plugin, too.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 01, 2014, 12:20:41 PM
While doing research for my next article I came across a fascinating interview with the guitarist Michael Lorimer on his meeting KS.  Here's the beginning:

Quote
ML – Let’s see…One of the very first composers I worked with was Karlheinz Stockhausen…
EF – My God!
ML - …to tell the truth, contemporary music was a closed book to me in the 60s. I grew up in Los Angeles where I heard pieces by Schoenberg, Krenek and others, and I appreciated the structure and thought, but the music didn’t hit me in the heart. But then I was at a party in Berkeley, California and somebody was playing an LP of Stockhausen – in the 60s in Berkeley, California people would choose Stockhausen as background music for a party! I started listening, I really was moved, and I wanted to find out more about Stockhausen.

EF – Do you remember which piece it was?

ML – It was Song of the Youth (Gesang der Jünglinge). When I heard it I felt… I didn’t know what it was about – it’s electronic music with voices – but I felt a profound religious feeling, a parallel with Bach. This was the first time I felt this with contemporary music. I had always wondered, “What would it be like sit a hall in Beethoven’s time and hear a Beethoven symphony for its very first time? What would it have been like to have been in Leipzig and have heard a Cantata on a Sunday with maestro Bach conducting?” Stockhausen’s piece moved me and it opened the doors for me to new music. (end cassette I side 1). As luck would have it, Stockhausen presented a concert at Mills College shortly thereafter, and a class for composers at the University of California, Davis. Great! I took Stockhausen’s class and, of course, now I was hearing it directly from the horse’s mouth (laughs). At the end of the semester, I asked Stockhausen if he had ever written for guitar.
He said, “No, I don’t really know anything about guitar”. It was the end of a school day, we were standing in the hallway, and students were walking around us. I had brought my guitar and I said, “Let me just show you a few things”. I kneeled down and played a little. Right away, Stockhausen sat down on the hallway floor with all the students milling about and said, “I want to hear more. Do this. Do that”. I started playing and he said, “I have to hear this all the time. I really want to write something for you. You have to come to Darmstadt.” So a year later I went to Darmstadt. Karlheinz and I had quite a good friendship. That summer, I was studying with Segovia too. I had lunch one day with Karlheinz in Darmstadt, got on a plane, flew to Spain, went to Compostela… and stepped back (laughs)… a hundred years.

There's more good stuff, you can read it here:
http://nyccgs.com/meetings/lorimer/fernandez.pdf (http://nyccgs.com/meetings/lorimer/fernandez.pdf)

I'm sure KS knew a little more about guitar than he admitted, since guitar is pretty well featured in Gruppen.  He did add more guitar soon after this in Der Jahreslauf.  Offhand I can't think of any others...  Lorimer ended up not playing the piece KS dedicated to him (Spiral) so maybe he felt "turned off"?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Rex on June 02, 2014, 03:08:01 AM
Quote
Lorimer ended up not playing the piece KS dedicated to him (Spiral) so maybe he felt "turned off"?

Thanks for that link Uatu - I enjoyed that little window into KS' history!

I can imagine Spiral would be reasonably scary to play with classical guitar without considerable experience in that kind of improvisation - especially solo in front of an audience - although Stockhausen would have been a great person to learn from. Did Michael Lorimer ever venture into the world of electric guitar?

Reading the interview Lorimer sounds like he never got turned off the music though.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 02, 2014, 06:24:23 PM
Not sure about Lorimer and electric, based on his webpage he seems mostly classical, but I should probably check.  The weird thing tho is that if KS was inspired by Lorimer to write Spiral, why is it that it has no guitar-specific element at all?  Come to think of it that could be taken as a mild insult....

Anyways, my article on SPIRAL is done

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/06/opus-27-spiral.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/06/opus-27-spiral.html)

There's a big section on the score instructions but frankly none of it really makes a difference when listening.  You'll either like it...or HATE it.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 03, 2014, 05:28:46 AM
Nice entry. I certainly would like to check out that Vetter version. POLE (duo) & EXPO (trio) fit here too .. both recently released through KS's label. The Ensemble-Modern performed SPIRAL earlier in the year. And performers use computers now when doing these.

Thanks!
I almost pulled the trigger on EXPO on my last order - the samples are really entertaining.  But now, after listening to so many versions of SPIRAL I'm kind of burned out on shortwave "intuitive" music .;)
I wonder how Ensemble Modern's SPIRAL went?  Any idea what instruments?  As far as the computers, I discovered that you can actually tune in shortwave signals thru the internet at "virtual remote control" SW stations.  Pretty neat.  I actually have a Grundig SW radio and when I first played around with it I felt like I was playing the beginning to HYMNEN, haha.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 03, 2014, 04:19:10 PM
I'm with you James on this, maybe even more critical. 

About 20 years ago when I was a member of a performing ensemble doing improvisatory music, the "plus minus" and text stuff was really attractive - partly because of the new sounds that were allowed, but also in large part because you could literally play a garbage can and call it music.  It was so EASY!  :P  In retrospect alot of what I did back then was youthful junk - fun, but pretty much self-indulgent rubbish.  Now KS himself accused most improvisors of playing rubbish, so it's not as if he wasn't aware of this danger.  But I guess his own group somehow pleased him enough that he was inspired to go pretty far with it.  Or maybe the opposite - he realized it was NOT sounding so good and then wrote MANTRA!  Anyways, it's very creative conceptually but it easily abused. 

Also at this point in my life playing some kind of interpretive textural thing is just not that satisfying compared to playing, say a Debussy song.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 04, 2014, 04:25:18 AM
But during that period of graphic scores & intuitive texts came the first masterwork of truly spectral music .. Stimmung.

Right, right.  And speaking of STIMMUNG I just got my S-V edition of STERNKLANG a couple days ago.  Having read up on it a bit more since the first time I heard it in the early 90s, I now realize that it's an expanded STIMMUNG for 5 groups....  I should have noticed that before!  This is also one of those times when the ritual words don't bother me, since they are integrated into the music, instead of just shouted out.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 04, 2014, 12:03:53 PM
I don't care for Sternklang at all. Granted I've never experienced it live in a park (as intended), only that recording .. but I'm not sure it would change my view much.

I like the group solos.  The parts where it's kind of swimming around all 5 groups less so.  It's not one to put on very often, but in the right mood...I actually prefer it to STIMMUNG, probably because I like the vintage synth sounds.  Pretty hard to believe that KS was not a potsmoker tho considering this work.  It's almost a parody of hippie music.  But I enjoy as background music to doing chores, since it's nature is that you don't really have to pay attention to it.  Sort of.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on June 04, 2014, 12:31:58 PM
I like the group solos.  The parts where it's kind of swimming around all 5 groups less so.  It's not one to put on very often, but in the right mood...I actually prefer it to STIMMUNG, probably because I like the vintage synth sounds.  Pretty hard to believe that KS was not a potsmoker tho considering this work.  It's almost a parody of hippie music.  But I enjoy as background music to doing chores, since it's nature is that you don't really have to pay attention to it.  Sort of.
Yeah. I don't like it, but I definitely know what you mean about "Stummung" (haven't heard the other one in question). It reminds me a lot of something that Riley or Young could have done. I like some minimalism, but not the "hippie" sounding kind (i.e. Riley and Young) -- rather the more somber/enigmatic/shifting kind (i.e. Reich and Adams). Ken (on GMG) really likes minimalism and (if I recall correctly) he said that "Stimmung" was the one Stockhausen work that he could somewhat appreciate.

It never occurred to me to think of "Stimmung" as spectralism, though, as James suggested. Interesting -- I see the connection with Grisey.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2014, 04:42:18 PM
Things I loved about Gruppen when first getting into it (at home with recordings) was the fresh, fascinating & rich layers of dialog between the 3 orchestras and it's overall visceral intensity. How it simultaneously takes a breath yet keeps you on edge. Not to mention how there is so much to be discovered and heard within the music .. it challenges & excites.

I'm just getting into it and listen to it almost everyday now, you describe it perfectly!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2014, 04:47:29 PM
Also, I've discovered Carré and it's endlessly fascinating. WOW.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 04, 2014, 05:48:37 PM
Also, I've discovered Carré and it's endlessly fascinating. WOW.

Check out Formel and Punkte.  Those are both pre-Gruppen, and somewhat more conventional, but great listens, lots of cool anglular writing.  Formel sounds like "normal" post-Romantic music almost...it actually has motifs ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leo K. on June 05, 2014, 09:16:11 AM
Thank you Uatu and James!

I love Punkte, it simply blew me away at first hearing, my mind was completely overturned. Aces!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 07, 2014, 05:21:00 PM
Cool interview from 2003
(Click SHOW)

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/musicshow/karlheinz-stockhausen/3375674 (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/musicshow/karlheinz-stockhausen/3375674)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 09, 2014, 06:16:27 AM
New article posted, this one is about KLANG Hours 5 through 12 (HARMONIEN, etc).

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/06/opus-85-to-92-klang-hours-5-through-12.html  (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/06/opus-85-to-92-klang-hours-5-through-12.html)

These are really just gorgeous chamber pieces, but the "spirally" patterns make them kind of crystalline in a way....  They sound simple at first, but I discover something new and clever every time I hear them.  Also specific themes stay in my head, specifically one where there's this cool sliding up and down gliss figure which is kind of unmistakeable.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on June 10, 2014, 03:05:23 AM
Okay guys, I caved. I like "Cosmic Pulses" :-[. Just don't tell anyone on the rest of the forum, okay? ;)

I was reading about it on Wikipedia and I saw this:
Quote
During his lectures surrounding the German premiere, Stockhausen said that he had "not made up his mind concerning it" yet,[10] and he admitted that the piece might be regarded as "not music, just sound" and it might be better to "just take it as a natural phenomena [sic] and not think of composition".

This is exactly what I thought all along. You know, it's sound, but it's cool sound. So, why should I care about differentiating between music and sound if I like it? Charles Ives even once said "My god! What has sound got to do with music?!"

I also admit that I can't really listen to it for more than 15 minutes. It starts to get too jumbled and it probably would make much more sense in an octophonic sound system. But the opening is so unsettling -- it's so cool!

Is this considered one of his best works? It certainly sounds like the most complicated electronic work. I like how it has a continuous sound as opposed to the stop-start sputtering of "Kontakte", which I don't care for.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2014, 04:37:29 AM
Okay guys, I caved. I like "Cosmic Pulses" :-[ . Just don't tell anyone on the rest of the forum, okay? ;)

It's okay to like one Stockhausen piece.  Even two.  Much more than that, and it's bad tone  ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 10, 2014, 11:46:39 AM
In the past I mentioned here that I much prefer his earlier tape-spliced pre-SIRIUS electronic works, since his more recent stuff reminds me too much of 80s pop music synth pads.  However lately I've been forcing myself to listen to the later stuff and it's slowly eradicating the associations with feathered hairdos and lighted dance floors....

Still, Cosmic Pulses doesn't do much for me until about 10 minutes in, and then 10 minutes after that it's almost too much!  I think this is one piece which would benefit very much from a light show with images of the 24 formulas scrolling in realtime.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 10, 2014, 11:47:25 AM
. . . I think this is one piece which would benefit very much from a light show with images of the 24 formulas scrolling in realtime.

Or, which would benefit very much from an editor ;)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on June 10, 2014, 03:03:01 PM
It's supposed to be quite the experience live within the octagon, within that massive polyphony .. like being trapped within a giant swarm of bees, or a tornado. Perception overload was one of the things KS liked about this one.
YES! I can totally see this. I think I will call it "The Wall Cloud". Oh, wait... we're talking about Stockhausen, not Haydn symphonies...
(http://s.imwx.com/dru/2013/07/4e41b8b5-510f-4ac8-8bf2-31d77c5996d2_650x366.jpg)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 14, 2014, 08:36:47 AM
James, I read in another thread that you were planning to get the MITTWOCH Birmingham program book.  Did you get it?  How is it?  Is there the complete libretto in there by any chance?  I'm curious about the various invented "languages" in WELT-PARLAMENT and MICHAELION....  Apparently they require new vocal techniques? 
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 14, 2014, 04:23:39 PM
OK thanks for the info, I don't have the cds, only the Youtube clips.  OK I'll get them eventually..I've got a list, and POLE is on order now.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mandryka on June 15, 2014, 10:18:33 AM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/939316.jpg)

I don't know if you are all aware of this rerelease of Maderna's performance of Kontra-Punkte, which I think is outstanding (as is the Pendereki on the same CD) There's also a recording on symphonyshare with Péter Eötvös, from a concert a couple of years ago in Cologne (with the Vienna Klangforum), which is well worth hearing I think, at least if you're open to Eötvös's rather third-person style. The latter also features a particularly memorable Zeitmaße.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Leo K. on June 16, 2014, 01:15:45 PM
Yea .. I have the Pollini/Eötvös/Klangforum-Wien live recordings .. the programme also includes Piano Piece VII, VIII, IX & Cross-Play .. Pollini plays those in addition to the central piano part within Kontra-Punkte.

Me too, it's a fantastic concert. Aces!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Brewski on June 16, 2014, 01:44:04 PM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/939316.jpg)

I don't know if you are all aware of this rerelease of Maderna's performance of Kontra-Punkte, which I think is outstanding (as is the Pendereki on the same CD) There's also a recording on symphonyshare with Péter Eötvös, from a concert a couple of years ago in Cologne (with the Vienna Klangforum), which is well worth hearing I think, at least if you're open to Eötvös's rather third-person style. The latter also features a particularly memorable Zeitmaße.

I'm very happy to see this album making it onto disc, since it was one of my first exposures to "new" music (i.e., music written since say 1960).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mandryka on June 17, 2014, 11:50:08 PM
I'm very happy to see this album making it onto disc, since it was one of my first exposures to "new" music (i.e., music written since say 1960).

--Bruce

This is by far and away my favourite version of Kontra-Punkte, Maderna makes Eötvös sound tame to me, emotionally too reserved.

I have some serious reservations about Eötvös's style in other places too -- in Les Noces for example, he sounds tame compared with Craft's first (CBS) recording, which is also on symphonyshare, or Pokrovsky Ensemble.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mandryka on June 17, 2014, 11:50:47 PM
How do you listen to Gruppen at home? I mean is there a recording which captures the relation between the three orchestras. Do people use headphones? To me, on recordings, it just sounds like another piece of serial music, but I'm sure the effect is very different in a concert.

Similar problems with Nono sometimes of course -- do people use headphones to listen to Prometeo?
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 18, 2014, 02:11:08 AM
This is by far and away my favourite version of Kontra-Punkte, Maderna makes Eötvös sound tame to me, emotionally too reserved.

I have some serious reservations about Eötvös's style in other places too -- in Les Noces for example, he sounds tame compared with Craft's first (CBS) recording, which is also on symphonyshare, or Pokrovsky Ensemble.

Everybody sounds tame compared to the Pokrovsky Ensemble recording, which is frankly rather idiosyncratic.  Please tell me that is not your benchmark Les noces!  8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: EigenUser on June 18, 2014, 03:11:32 AM
LOUD.

It is good to have a mixer ear with this one, to have that sense of that aural clock or dial so to speak ..

Haha, James, I bet you listen to this in the car at full volume with the windows down. :laugh:

One time I was listening to the Ligeti PC with my windows down and there was a panhandler (at a red light) who walked over and asked me what I was playing. I told him it was modern classical music and he was like "You know, it ain't bad!" (it was the real jazzy opening of the piece). :laugh:.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 18, 2014, 06:06:45 AM
This is by far and away my favourite version of Kontra-Punkte

Same here.  I still have the LP in fact.  It's possible other versions are better in some way, but this being my first "favorite" Stockhausen piece (and the first one where I actually "got" what was going on) this will always have a special place.  Of course it also ROCKS!
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 18, 2014, 06:09:48 AM
How do you listen to Gruppen at home? I mean is there a recording which captures the relation between the three orchestras. Do people use headphones? To me, on recordings, it just sounds like another piece of serial music, but I'm sure the effect is very different in a concert.

The 3-way (or 4-way) stuff never really works because center channel stuff will always sound louder since it is distributed on left and right as well.  The ideal way (and KS suggests this in lots of 4 channel stuff) is to play it in 4 speakers, L/R in front, and L/R behind you.  Headphones works in a pinch though.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mandryka on June 18, 2014, 06:54:34 AM
Everybody sounds tame compared to the Pokrovsky Ensemble recording, which is frankly rather idiosyncratic.  Please tell me that is not your benchmark Les noces!  8)

It is my benchmark recording.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2014, 06:57:32 AM
It is my benchmark recording.

shhh
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 18, 2014, 07:13:08 AM
It is my benchmark recording.

Quote from: Agent 86
I asked you not to tell me that.
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 18, 2014, 07:14:47 AM
That's the only recording of Свадебка which I find unlistenable.

But, I am glad you like it 8)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Mandryka on June 18, 2014, 12:45:47 PM
Ensemble Recherche's recording is my favorite.




This was easy to hear because it's on spotify, and I'm glad I did. Tremendous sense of logic, inevitable natural flow of ideas. And wonderful sound. Thanks so much for mentioning it.

Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 18, 2014, 05:24:56 PM
She's very cool.  I corresponded with a her a little on Youtube.  She actually studied with Majella Stockhausen in preparation for her performance of Klavierstucke XIII.  Sorry I missed this, but it was too far.  Also I have to say I don't think I would enjoy Natural Durations live so much.  That one works for me in solitude.

Klavierstucke XIII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acnPxc1Ip7E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acnPxc1Ip7E)
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: Uatu on June 20, 2014, 04:51:44 PM
Added my newest article on the Helicopter String Quartet. 

Sound Impressions
     I've always liked this piece for its vitality.  The fast tremolos are pretty fascinating as they attempt to blend with the helicopter rotor noises, and the rotor noises themselves are interesting to listen to.  I wondered if it might have been nice to have the "real sound" tracks of the helicopters in isolation as a bonus, as Stockhausen has done for the electronic parts of many other works (SIRIUS, OKTOPHONIE, etc...) but I suppose since the score does not have actual flight instructions it would be confusing to call it a "Stockhausen composition."
     I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing but because of the constant micro-tonal glissing I never really feel like I'm hearing the LICHT formula.  I suppose that's a testimony to the adaptability of the formula to different compositional permutations.  However I wish I had felt more of a sense of structural change during the flight phase.  Based on the timings it appears that the 2nd cycle is generally a slower tempo than the 1st and 3rd cycles but because of the fast tremolo playing it all seems pretty consistent, for better or worse.
     In any case, this is a deep listen for it's subtle differences, and while watching a video of the performance one gets the feeling of being at a NASA space launch as much as at a chamber music recital, which even alone is quite an achievement.  This is probably Stockhausen's most famous work of the last 30 years and is also probably the only one of his records to be sold at Walmart. (http://www.walmart.com/ip/29122099 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/29122099))

My analysis here:
http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/06/opus-69-helikopter-streichquartett.html (http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/06/opus-69-helikopter-streichquartett.html)

If you don't already like the piece, it probably won't change your mind.  It is what it is...
Title: Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
Post by: petrarch on June 21, 2014, 04:47:33 AM
Sorry I missed this, but it was too far.  Also I have to say I don't think I would enjoy Natural Durations live so much.  That one works for me in solitude.

I went to the concert and it was quite enjoyable, a great opportunity to hear it in full live. As with the Klavierstücke, I like Natürliche Dauern quite a bit, although pieces 13-24 tend to be much less interesting than 1-12, with a couple of exceptions. I think I commented on it here in the forum when I got the recording in 2