GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: Guido on May 29, 2007, 01:30:48 PM

Title: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on May 29, 2007, 01:30:48 PM
So lets have your recommendations! I have really grown to love Barber's Vanessa - probably the most dramatic turn around in terms of disliking to liking that I think I've had. At first I found it a little dull, but the more I listened to it, the more I realised what a great work it is. I would use the word masterpiece, but I tend to avoid saying that these days. The evocation of the cold Scandinavian winter and landscape is so subtle and beautiful - nothing obvious, no wind machines or storms, but there's something in the score that is extremely evocative of this. I'm not sure whether Barber ever made it to Scandinavia on his many travels through Europe.

Anthony and Cleopatra I have not listened to as much, but it hasn't grown on me in the same way. Its far starker than Vanessa, and also seems to be alot more self consciously dramatic. The plot is quite difficult to follow, and the characters somehow seem less personal. I will persevere though!

A hand of Bridge from 1959 is a great little work - 10 minutes long, it depicts two couples playing bridge, and ecplores what they are thinking and their relationships with each other. Sassy is the word!

So what other American opera is worth hearing? I am yet to hear any of Glass' which I've heard mostly heard described as fascinating and clever rather than too many emotional terms.

Also on the English opera side of things, I am yet to hear any by RVW or any of Holst's four operas (I'm particularly interested in the latter...)

I'm talking about 20th century works here, rather than Purcel and his ilk.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: The new erato on May 29, 2007, 01:36:18 PM
I like Carlisles's Susannah and Bernsteins Candide, don't know if the former is still available on Decca though.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Maciek on May 29, 2007, 03:21:28 PM
I second Candide, and would add Trouble in Tahiti to that (my favorite Bernstein work).

I'm sure you haven't mentioned Britten because he's too obvious, right?

I've mentioned Nyman's The Man Who Mistook His Wife for A Hat numerous times before and I'm putting a good word for it once more now. It really is one of my favorite modern operas.

OK, these are all "easy listening" but somehow nothing more comes to mind at the moment. I'm sure others will have more demanding suggestions... ;D

Maciek
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: jochanaan on May 29, 2007, 03:26:02 PM
Elliott Carter's What Next?  (But only if you're up for a challenge both dramatically and musically. ;D)
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: bhodges on May 30, 2007, 12:02:45 PM
Another vote for Candide, which is very well represented on recordings.  Although there is a recent one on DVD with Marin Alsop conducting the New York Philharmonic, this first one below from 1991 was one of Bernstein's last projects and is terrific.  Jerry Hadley sounds excellent in the title role, and June Anderson is very good, even if more "conventionally operatic."  (Kristin Chenoweth in the Alsop version seems to have a more ideal voice for this part.)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41672TTS91L._AA240_.jpg)

Here's the Alsop DVD, which also features Paul Groves, Patti LuPone, and Thomas Allen as Dr. Pangloss.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5164DWP3ZCL._AA240_.jpg)

--Bruce
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: mahlertitan on May 30, 2007, 12:06:52 PM
a bit of off topic, but don't you think we should have a thread on musicals?
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2007, 12:57:46 PM
Susannah by Carlisle Floyd is one of my favorite American operas.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/new/Sus.jpg)

It's based on the Apocryphal bibical story of Susannah and the elders but set in Appalachia. The musical style is kind of Puccini meets Copland.

Sarge
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on May 30, 2007, 11:43:18 PM
Thanks for the Suggestions guys - I'm actually very fond of Bernstein, so I will certainly explore his operas.

Yes Maciek you are right about Britten.

Also I forgot to mention What Next? but I do already know it a bit (not as well as I'd like to) and I really do enjoy it.

Thanks for the other rec. Don't have time to address them individually at the moment.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on November 04, 2007, 05:29:25 PM
Having listened to Adam's Nixon in China, I was wondering whether his operas were as good?
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Wendell_E on November 05, 2007, 01:41:15 AM
Quote from: Guido on November 04, 2007, 05:29:25 PM
Having listened to Adam's Nixon in China, I was wondering whether his operas were as good?

The Death of Klinghoffer isn't bad, but I like Nixon a lot more.

My favorite American opera is The Rake's Progress.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Mark on November 05, 2007, 01:50:22 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on May 30, 2007, 12:06:52 PM
a bit of off topic, but don't you think we should have a thread on musicals?

Someone already started one. I don't care for musicals, so I didn't bother to note which part of the forum it was in, sorry. :(
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Wendell_E on November 05, 2007, 01:56:44 AM
Quote from: Mark on November 05, 2007, 01:50:22 AM
Someone already started one. I don't care for musicals, so I didn't bother to note which part of the forum it was in, sorry. :(

Here it is:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3132.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3132.0.html)
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Larry Rinkel on November 05, 2007, 05:11:56 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on November 05, 2007, 01:41:15 AM
My favorite American opera is The Rake's Progress.

Which is American only in the sense it was composed in America - by a Russian-born emigrant and two English librettists, on an 18th-century English subject.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Wendell_E on November 05, 2007, 05:51:56 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 05, 2007, 05:11:56 AM
Which is American only in the sense it was composed in America - by a Russian-born emigrant and two English librettists, on an 18th-century English subject.

Not just an emigrant, but a naturalized U.S. citizen, as was Auden.   The other librettist, Chester Kallman, was a native-born American.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Todd on November 05, 2007, 06:15:00 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on May 29, 2007, 03:26:02 PM
Elliott Carter's What Next?  (But only if you're up for a challenge both dramatically and musically. ;D)


Hear, hear!
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Larry Rinkel on November 05, 2007, 07:10:25 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on November 05, 2007, 05:51:56 AM
Not just an emigrant, but a naturalized U.S. citizen, as was Auden.   The other librettist, Chester Kallman, was a native-born American.

I'm sure you're right, and I'm happy to stand corrected. But there is nothing especially American in the nature of the work itself.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 05, 2007, 07:19:52 AM
I vote for Aaron Copland's The Tender Land. It is an opera about the American frontier, about family, and about growing up. It is probably not the most dramatic work but does not warrant the apparent neglect it has been handed nowadays. I have this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kuRYww5oL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Wendell_E on November 05, 2007, 07:28:14 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 05, 2007, 07:10:25 AM
But there is nothing especially American in the nature of the work itself.

Whatever that means.  That's probably the reason I like it so much.   ;D
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Larry Rinkel on November 05, 2007, 08:42:38 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on November 05, 2007, 07:28:14 AM
Whatever that means.  That's probably the reason I like it so much.   ;D

Oh, come on. I think it's quite obvious what it means. The work is about a Hogarthian theme taking place in 18th-century England, and musically it owes its traditions to Mozart, Donizetti, Monteverdi, and a variety of other European composers. Neither musically nor dramatically is there the slightest relation to anything American.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Lady Chatterley on November 05, 2007, 09:02:33 AM
Quote from: Guido on May 29, 2007, 01:30:48 PM


I'm talking about 20th century works here, rather than Purcel and his ilk.

   >:(
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: yashin on November 06, 2007, 12:48:26 AM
What about 'Harvey Milk' by Stuart Wallace.  Conducted by Donald Runnicles.

It has one terrific ending where Harvey gets shot.  It is frightening and unforgettable.

It also boasts the only known gay love duet in opera.

have a look  http://www.harveymilkopera.com/harvey_milk.htm

I bought it in the sale and enjoy parts of it.  Might not be the greatest thing in Opera but is a welcome addition to my collection.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Wendell_E on November 06, 2007, 03:43:38 AM
No-one's mentioned the two Virgil Thompson/Gertrude Stein operas, Four Saints in Three Acts and The Mother of Us All.  Most of the comments I've read seem to agree that both Joel Thome's Nonesuch recording of Saints and Raymond Leppard's New World recording of Mother leave a lot to be desired, but as I recall (I haven't heard them since our library had them on LP) they're well worth hearing.  They're both somewhere on my humongous amazon.com wishlist.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on November 06, 2007, 04:35:46 AM
I've seen The Mother of Us All at Glimmerglass Opera and found it to effective, though I felt it was mainly because of the excellent production. The piece is something of a blank slate for directors to do with as they will. Neither the words nor the music relate to any specific action that might take place on stage. I recall the murmurings that rippled through the hall about 10 minutes into the opera as the audience came to realize that none of the words that were being sung made any sense, nor were they ever going to make sense because they weren't supposed to make sense. The music, by its deliberate blandness, avoids emotional involvement in the action until the final scene, where the statue of Susan B Anthony sings, and the hymn-like music expresses reverence for her accomplishments. Somehow that scene pulled everything that preceded it together, and it was actually quite touching. It's not an opera you can appreciate on a recording.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on November 06, 2007, 04:53:27 AM
Another American opera I saw at Glimmerglass was Robert Kurka's The Good Soldier Schweik, and I didn't know what to expect from it, but it was such a blast that when it was over I wanted to go back into the theater and have them play it all again. It's a comedy about the absurdity of war told in music which reflects an American reception of Stravinsky, scored for winds and percussion.  The "Enema Song" was particularly hilarious (the army's doctor assumes all of his patients are feigning illness to avoid battle, so he prescribes an enema three times a day).
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Larry Rinkel on November 06, 2007, 05:34:15 AM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on November 06, 2007, 04:35:46 AM
I've seen The Mother of Us All at Glimmerglass Opera and found it to effective, though I felt it was mainly because of the excellent production. The piece is something of a blank slate for directors to do with as they will. Neither the words nor the music relate to any specific action that might take place on stage. I recall the murmurings that rippled through the hall about 10 minutes into the opera as the audience came to realize that none of the words that were being sung made any sense, nor were they ever going to make sense because they weren't supposed to make sense. The music, by its deliberate blandness, avoids emotional involvement in the action until the final scene, where the statue of Susan B Anthony sings, and the hymn-like music expresses reverence for her accomplishments. Somehow that scene pulled everything that preceded it together, and it was actually quite touching. It's not an opera you can appreciate on a recording.

I did see it at the NYC Opera, with the late Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, and it was for me a mildly interesting work that I'm happy to have seen but don't feel any great urge to encounter again.

Actually I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Porgy and Bess, and given Mark's interests in it, Torke's Strawberry Fields.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Mark G. Simon on November 06, 2007, 06:00:46 AM
What delighted me about Torke's Strawberry Fields is the way he has with the English language of making it sound natural and musical. Many composers set English as if it were Italian or German and it winds up sounding stilted. Torke knows how to reproduce the natural rhythms of English in music, and he has a good sense of dramatic timing. Strawberry Fields was by far the best part of the Central Park trilogy it originally appeared as part of, and shows its composer as someone who could potentially acheive something great in opera.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Tsaraslondon on November 06, 2007, 09:03:00 AM
I very much enjoyed The Ghosts of Versailles by John Corigliano. I once had a video of the Met production, with, among others, Teresa Stratas, Renee Fleming and Marylyn Horne, but I'm not sure if it was made available on DVD.

I note you ask about the operas of Holst and RVW. The English National Opera recently did a production of RVW's Sir John in Love, which was hugely entertaining, though the opera itself is, inevitably, somewhat inferior to Verdi's treatment of the same subject (Falstaff). I also like Gustav Holst's Savitri, of which there is a wonderful recording with Dame Janet Baker. I saw it once many years ago, when still a teenager, coupled with Menotti's The Old Maid and The Thief. It cast quite a spell on me, but I can't remember a thing about the Menotti.

I have a CD of excerpts from Walton's Troilus and Cressida, with Schwarzopf as Cressida. Walton originally wanted Callas, but she showed little enthusiasm for 20th century music (not even for Puccini) and declined, so he wrote the role with Schwarzkopf in mind. I'm not sure why, but she never ended up singing it on stage and the premiere went to Magda Laszlo, though Schwarzkopf did agree to record these excerpts. It is a gloriously lyrical and romantic score, and well worth hearing. Later on Walton transcribed the role of Cressida for mezzo, so that Janet Baker could sing it, and there is indeed a complete recording of this version with Baker, though many critics have found it less successful than the soprano version, which was eventually recorded with Judith Howarth and is now available on Chandos.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K8JBJ0FDL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Wendell_E on November 06, 2007, 09:50:54 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on November 06, 2007, 09:03:00 AM
I very much enjoyed The Ghosts of Versailles by John Corigliano. I once had a video of the Met production, with, among others, Teresa Stratas, Renee Fleming and Marylyn Horne, but I'm not sure if it was made available on DVD

I liked it to, and no, it's never been released on DVD.  Supposedly, the Met's reviving it in 2009-10 with Angela Gheorghiu and Kristin Chenoweth taking over the roles created by Stratas and Horne.  Maybe that'll motivate DG to release it on DVD.  Or not.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: bhodges on November 08, 2007, 11:48:39 AM
Quote from: Guido on May 29, 2007, 01:30:48 PM
So lets have your recommendations! I have really grown to love Barber's Vanessa - probably the most dramatic turn around in terms of disliking to liking that I think I've had. At first I found it a little dull, but the more I listened to it, the more I realised what a great work it is. I would use the word masterpiece, but I tend to avoid saying that these days. The evocation of the cold Scandinavian winter and landscape is so subtle and beautiful - nothing obvious, no wind machines or storms, but there's something in the score that is extremely evocative of this. I'm not sure whether Barber ever made it to Scandinavia on his many travels through Europe.

I'm seeing Vanessa at New York City Opera tonight, and very much looking forward to it.  Don't really know the work at all, except for a few excerpts here and there.  Renée Fleming does "He has come, he has come" on her CD, I Want Magic! but that's the most I've heard lately.

--Bruce
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Brian on November 09, 2007, 12:20:52 PM
This thread cannot continue without mention of this masterwork:

(http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/9798/Jan14_98/porgy.jpg)

PORGY AND BESS. A masterwork so influential that it even inspired a Sesame Street parody ('A Cookie is a Sometimes Thing'). Porgy and Bess is one of the triumphs of American art ... the first act's gambling scene goes on rather too long, but how can we go thirty posts in a thread about American opera without mentioning Gershwin's masterwork, an infusion of jazz folk styles, good old fashioned classical opera, and some surprising musical experimental dabbling?
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: bhodges on November 09, 2007, 12:27:15 PM
Good for you, Porgy and Bess should absolutely be mentioned.  I finally saw it staged, about three years ago at the Opera Company of Philadelphia, in an excellent production with some really good singers.  The "big numbers" are of course terrific, but there's lots of good music in between them as well.  My favorite: "Bess, You Is My Woman Now," which to my ears has an almost Richard Strauss-ian melodic line.

--Bruce
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Tsaraslondon on November 09, 2007, 02:42:10 PM
Quote from: brianrein on November 09, 2007, 12:20:52 PM
This thread cannot continue without mention of this masterwork:

(http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/9798/Jan14_98/porgy.jpg)

PORGY AND BESS. A masterwork so influential that it even inspired a Sesame Street parody ('A Cookie is a Sometimes Thing'). Porgy and Bess is one of the triumphs of American art ... the first act's gambling scene goes on rather too long, but how can we go thirty posts in a thread about American opera without mentioning Gershwin's masterwork, an infusion of jazz folk styles, good old fashioned classical opera, and some surprising musical experimental dabbling?

I agree. Larry had already mentioned it though.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on February 03, 2009, 07:14:33 PM
Sorry for resurrecting this ancient thread but I just recently got this CD:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413HPKD8J0L._SS500_.jpg)

Fantastic stuff - not a weak number on there. The excerpt from Barber's Vanessa is absolutely fantastic - I really hope she does go on to sing (and record) the role - I've never heard it sound so good. But really its all hugely enjoyable - the Stravinsky, Hermann and Menotti all make me want to get to know those composers' operas.

On the back of this, I also just bought Menotti's Telephone and Amahl and the Night Visitors. I've heard his music harshly denegraded for being essentially dressed up melodrama and show tunes, but I've also heard that the best of his operas approaches the quality of Barber's work. I thought I better decide for myself. Also Bernstein's Candide (his own recording)

And of course I agree with the above - Gershwin's opera is his magnum opus and one of the finest American works for the stage.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Superhorn on February 04, 2009, 07:28:14 AM
  I heard the recording of Adams 'The Death Of Klinghoffer on the CD recording with Kent Nagano and the Lyon Opera several years ago when I took it out of my local library and was very impressed with it despite the controversy.
  Some accused Adams and his librettist of anti-semitism, but following the recording with the libretto inclosed , I found absolutely no evidence of anti-semitism at all. In no way did the opera condone let alone approve of the murder of Klinghoffer, and the Palestinian terrorists were not portrayed in a favorable light at all.  And the music is stark and powerful.
  I also saw the recent PBS telecast of Doctor Atomic by Adams from the Met, and found it powerful and compelling despite the flaws which some critics pointed out.
  There is already a DVD which I have not seen yet of a performance of Doctor Atomic from the Netherlands, and the Met performance will also be released on DVD. Either way you should definitely try it.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on February 04, 2009, 08:37:17 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on February 04, 2009, 07:28:14 AM
  I heard the recording of Adams 'The Death Of Klinghoffer on the CD recording with Kent Nagano and the Lyon Opera several years ago when I took it out of my local library and was very impressed with it despite the controversy.
  Some accused Adams and his librettist of anti-semitism, but following the recording with the libretto inclosed , I found absolutely no evidence of anti-semitism at all. In no way did the opera condone let alone approve of the murder of Klinghoffer, and the Palestinian terrorists were not portrayed in a favorable light at all.  And the music is stark and powerful.
  I also saw the recent PBS telecast of Doctor Atomic by Adams from the Met, and found it powerful and compelling despite the flaws which some critics pointed out.
  There is already a DVD which I have not seen yet of a performance of Doctor Atomic from the Netherlands, and the Met performance will also be released on DVD. Either way you should definitely try it.

Yes it's an interesting piece - I think I marginally prefer El Nino, but both are superb operas. Haven't yet seen or heard Dr. Atomic
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: bhodges on February 04, 2009, 08:46:37 AM
Quote from: Guido on February 03, 2009, 07:14:33 PM
Sorry for resurrecting this ancient thread but I just recently got this CD:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413HPKD8J0L._SS500_.jpg)

Fantastic stuff - not a weak number on there. The excerpt from Barber's Vanessa is absolutely fantastic - I really hope she does go on to sing (and record) the role - I've never heard it sound so good. But really its all hugely enjoyable - the Stravinsky, Hermann and Menotti all make me want to get to know those composers' operas.

On the back of this, I also just bought Menotti's Telephone and Amahl and the Night Visitors. I've heard his music harshly denegraded for being essentially dressed up melodrama and show tunes, but I've also heard that the best of his operas approaches the quality of Barber's work. I thought I better decide for myself. Also Bernstein's Candide (his own recording)

And of course I agree with the above - Gershwin's opera is his magnum opus and one of the finest American works for the stage.

This might be my favorite Fleming recording--and she has done some beautiful work over the years.  The program is very well-conceived, she sounds great, and Levine and the MET Orchestra are the kind of collaborators singers dream about.  And that Bernard Herrmann excerpt from Wuthering Heights is a real find.

--Bruce
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Cato on February 04, 2009, 08:54:43 AM
Out of print unfortunately, and mentioned in the past weeks in other topics, is Bernard Herrmann's Wuthering Heights.

Somebody mentioned that they had a musicologist firend who had an "unhealthy obsession" with this opera!   :o

I recall the recording technology - even though Herrmann himself was conducting - not being the best.  The label was Unicorn.  But the performance - in my memory at least - seemed fine, although I know people have complained about the lead female singer (ELizabeth Bainbridge).  

A copy is available on Amazon...for $200!   :o
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Tsaraslondon on February 04, 2009, 10:21:25 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 04, 2009, 08:54:43 AM
Out of print unfortunately, and mentioned in the past weeks in other topics, is Bernard Herrmann's Wuthering Heights.

Somebody mentioned that they had a musicologist firend who had an "unhealthy obsession" with this opera!   :o

I recall the recording technology - even though Herrmann himself was conducting - not being the best.  The label was Unicorn.  But the performance - in my memory at least - seemed fine, although I know people have complained about the lead female singer (ELizabeth Bainbridge).  

A copy is available on Amazon...for $200!   :o

Elizabeth Bainbrigde, a mezzo soprano and stalwart of Covent Garden for many years, did not sing Cathy.  Further reading of the Amazon listing reveals the soprano lead to have been Moerag Beaton.





Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Cato on February 04, 2009, 10:59:58 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on February 04, 2009, 10:21:25 AM
Elizabeth Bainbrigde, a mezzo soprano and stalwart of Covent Garden for many years, did not sing Cathy.  Further reading of the Amazon listing reveals the soprano lead to have been Moerag Beaton.







Ah!  Unjustly accused!  Lady Bainbridge remains innocent!   0:)

Interesting that in the Amazon list near the top Beaton's name does not appear.

In any case, one reviewer says her voice is "unpleasantly shrill" with occasional wobbly intonation. 

Maybe that was due to acting!   8)
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on February 04, 2009, 11:28:01 AM
Yes, a real shame that it is not available. I would love to hear it.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Tsaraslondon on February 04, 2009, 12:51:01 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 04, 2009, 10:59:58 AM
Ah!  Unjustly accused!  Lady Bainbridge remains innocent!   0:)

Interesting that in the Amazon list near the top Beaton's name does not appear.

In any case, one reviewer says her voice is "unpleasantly shrill" with occasional wobbly intonation. 

Maybe that was due to acting!   8)

A friend of mine had the set on LP many years ago, and would play one of Cathy's scenes when he wanted to have a laugh. Really her diction was appalling. Not one word was intelligible - not a single consonant. Much worse than Dame Joan Sutherland, at her worst period.

Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on February 12, 2009, 09:54:38 AM
Still on that I want magic! Fleming CD - What the hell is going on during the Menotti aria "Monica's Waltz"? It is sung by the character Monica, but she keeps referring to herself in the third person not least with the line: "Monica, Monica can't you see that my heart is bleeding for you." Is she talking for the mute boy Toby as a game or something?
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: bhodges on February 12, 2009, 10:02:46 AM
Quote from: Guido on February 12, 2009, 09:54:38 AM
Still on that I want magic! Fleming CD - What the hell is going on during the Menotti aria "Monica's Waltz"? It is sung by the character Monica, but she keeps referring to herself in the third person not least with the line: "Monica, Monica can't you see that my heart is bleeding for you." Is she talking for the mute boy Toby as a game or something?

USOpera.com to the rescue:

Act I

Monica, the daughter of Madame Flora ("Baba"), and Toby, a mute boy living with them, are playing while Madame Flora is away. When she returns, she is furious that they are not ready for the seance she has planned; Monica prevents her from striking Toby. They busily prepare, and when the three guests arrive for the seance, Monica pretends to be the teenage daughter of one and the baby son of another, while Toby works the mechanical devices that control the motion of the lights and the furniture in the room. Suddenly, Madame Flora stops the seance and sends the customers away. She tells Monica she felt a spectral hand clutch her throat during the seance. She suspects Toby at first, but as Monica tries to comfort her Flora hears a voice imitating Monica's performance at the seance.

Act II

A few days later, Monica is watching Toby perform a puppet show for her; then she dances for him. Monica realizes he is trying to tell her that he loves her; pretending to be his voice, she says it for him. She runs off as Flora reenters; the medium tries cajole Toby into confessing that he was the one who touched her during the seance, or that he knows something about it. When he does not answer, she begins to whip him, but is interrupted by the doorbell. The three clients from the previous seance enter; Flora gives them their money back and tries to convince them they have been cheated, even showing them the wires and microphones, but they refuse to believe her. She throws them out, and despite Monica's protests, throws Toby out, too. Monica goes to her room, and Flora, frightened by what she has experienced, drinks herself to sleep. Toby returns; Flora awakes, and Toby hides from her; Flora, thinking he is the spirit she felt, shoots him.

--Bruce
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on February 12, 2009, 10:42:20 AM
Cheers!
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on April 15, 2009, 05:43:05 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on February 04, 2009, 12:51:01 PM
A friend of mine had the set on LP many years ago, and would play one of Cathy's scenes when he wanted to have a laugh. Really her diction was appalling. Not one word was intelligible - not a single consonant. Much worse than Dame Joan Sutherland, at her worst period.



I really want to hear this piece. I have a few arias from it as sheet music which I have played through - all are gorgeous, and of course Fleming's recording of "I have Dreamt" is just ravishing... And I'm also desperate to hear the cantata Moby Dick (dedicated to Ives)...
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on April 15, 2009, 08:08:01 AM
Minnesota Opera are stagin Wuthering Heights in their 2014-15 season! Please god, let it be recorded! And also, god, I hope you're listening, get Renée Fleming to be Cathy.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: lordlawler on May 19, 2009, 12:44:22 PM
I think I was referenced earlier in this thread as the musicologist who had an "unhealthy obsession" with Herrmann's Wuthering Heights so I have a few things to say about the opera. Before I nitpick the recording let me say I find this work to be one of my personal favorites to listen to (I've heard it pretty much 20 or so times. Yeah...)

It is a pity that the only recording is of such uneven quality. Part of this lies in the short amount of time that this 3 hour opera was prepared in. And the Cathy has TERRIBLE diction. The Heathcliff has some vocal issues, possibly because while Heathcliff is a baritone role, he is often singing in his upper ranges, which can be rather taxing for such a long time.

Herrmann also takes the tempos rather too slow - but the score usually has the tempos marked at a faster tempo. Hindley's Act 4 drinking song is marked at moderato, but Herrmann takes it at a tempo far under that. Possibly these tempos were chosen because of issues with performers, or Herrmann's increasing fondness for slower and slower tempos as time wore on.

Looking at the score, I can see sometimes a rather big difference between what I see and what I hear. Missed notes, terrible diction, singers going to ff rather than p as marked, etc etc etc...this really needs to be rerecorded. Great orchestra sound though.

However to get on point, it is one of the finest American operas of the 20th century, and it is a pity that its only been put on once, and not very well at that. I highly recommend giving it a listen, while the quality can waver, and some scenes go on too long, there are some amazing moments of drama and atmospheric writing that make up for any weaknesses. Well, more than some, more like many, despite Herrmann's tendencies to go into melodramatic romantic gestures.

Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Anne on May 19, 2009, 07:12:35 PM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on February 04, 2009, 12:51:01 PM
A friend of mine had the set on LP many years ago, and would play one of Cathy's scenes when he wanted to have a laugh. Really her diction was appalling. Not one word was intelligible - not a single consonant. Much worse than Dame Joan Sutherland, at her worst period.



As far as I'm concerned, every opera in English should have English subtitles.  Maybe my hearing is starting to go, but I dread listening or watching a DVD of English or U.S. operas.  One has to strain so much to understand the words.  For me, even singers with good diction are included.  Just my personal gripe!
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Tsaraslondon on May 20, 2009, 12:44:37 AM
Quote from: Anne on May 19, 2009, 07:12:35 PM
As far as I'm concerned, every opera in English should have English subtitles.  Maybe my hearing is starting to go, but I dread listening or watching a DVD of English or U.S. operas.  One has to strain so much to understand the words.  For me, even singers with good diction are included.  Just my personal gripe!


I agree. It's a worrying trend, Anne. if you listen to Britten's own recording of The Turn of the Screw, a libretto is hardly necessary, so clearly do the singers articulate the text. Nor do I seem to have much trouble understanding the words of pre second world war singers. Try Kathleen Ferrier or Heddle Nash. Even foreign singers articulate English better. Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's singing of Danny Boy is so clear in every detail, that English listeners often thought it funny to caricature her strongly accented English, though personally I find that rather unkind. Do the Italians poke fun at the numerous strange accents they must hear? They adored Sutherland, who mangled their language (well any language really) beyond recognition. At least with Schwarzkopf, trongly accented or not, you can hear every word.



Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on May 20, 2009, 10:52:01 AM
Quote from: lordlawler on May 19, 2009, 12:44:22 PM
I think I was referenced earlier in this thread as the musicologist who had an "unhealthy obsession" with Herrmann's Wuthering Heights so I have a few things to say about the opera. Before I nitpick the recording let me say I find this work to be one of my personal favorites to listen to (I've heard it pretty much 20 or so times. Yeah...)

It is a pity that the only recording is of such uneven quality. Part of this lies in the short amount of time that this 3 hour opera was prepared in. And the Cathy has TERRIBLE diction. The Heathcliff has some vocal issues, possibly because while Heathcliff is a baritone role, he is often singing in his upper ranges, which can be rather taxing for such a long time.

Herrmann also takes the tempos rather too slow - but the score usually has the tempos marked at a faster tempo. Hindley's Act 4 drinking song is marked at moderato, but Herrmann takes it at a tempo far under that. Possibly these tempos were chosen because of issues with performers, or Herrmann's increasing fondness for slower and slower tempos as time wore on.

Looking at the score, I can see sometimes a rather big difference between what I see and what I hear. Missed notes, terrible diction, singers going to ff rather than p as marked, etc etc etc...this really needs to be rerecorded. Great orchestra sound though.

However to get on point, it is one of the finest American operas of the 20th century, and it is a pity that its only been put on once, and not very well at that. I highly recommend giving it a listen, while the quality can waver, and some scenes go on too long, there are some amazing moments of drama and atmospheric writing that make up for any weaknesses. Well, more than some, more like many, despite Herrmann's tendencies to go into melodramatic romantic gestures.



Thanks for posting about this! I just wish even that poor recording was available today.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: karlhenning on May 20, 2009, 10:57:40 AM
Quote from: lordlawler on May 19, 2009, 12:44:22 PM
(I've heard it pretty much 20 or so times. Yeah...)

That's certainly unusual focus. I recuse myself from the question of whether it is an "unhealthy obsession"  8)

And welcome!
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: lordlawler on May 20, 2009, 11:34:45 AM
Haha, well its a thing I do sometimes to a work when I first discover it/get very taken with it. I've heard the first act of Britten's Billy Budd something like 15 times for example. And then there's my Rite of Spring obsession this semester (I took a class on Stravinsky and wrote a paper, did a presentation, and wrote program notes for the symphony concert on The Rite).

Regarding Wuthering Heights, the recording can be found sometimes on ebay or amazon sold used, but can often come at a pretty penny, and the discs are vulnerable to deterioration (I think they are of a certain make that had some flawed cds in it, I forget which factory...its called bronzing or what not).

However, there is a better way. I'm not sure how this works for non university students (since I've only done this as a university student), but there are a variety of libraries around the world that have a recording, and it might be possible to request it (either as LP or CD) via an interlibrary loan. That's how I got a copy of the vocal score, sent to me from University of Texas Austin haha.

I also recommend dropping by the Bernard Herrmann Society (BHS - http://www.bernardherrmann.org/) they have a semi active forum where you might be able to dredge up some more information.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: karlhenning on May 20, 2009, 11:37:53 AM
Quote from: lordlawler on May 20, 2009, 11:34:45 AM
Haha, well its a thing I do sometimes to a work when I first discover it/get very taken with it. I've heard the first act of Britten's Billy Budd something like 15 times for example. And then there's my Rite of Spring obsession this semester (I took a class on Stravinsky and wrote a paper, did a presentation, and wrote program notes for the symphony concert on The Rite).

Understood;  generally, I have much the same experience frequently.  I have not listened that many times to any complete opera . . . but I probably ought.  Oh, if only time were an inexhaustible resource!

I need (wish) to do something on these lines with a number of Britten operas . . . listen to them five times in the course of a week.  May possibly do just that with Turn of the Screw, now that I've borrowed a vocal score . . . .
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 05:21:05 AM
But isn't this a piece of garbage?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Hry-%2B5qBL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Wendell_E on May 22, 2009, 07:16:55 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 05:21:05 AM
But isn't this a piece of garbage?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Hry-%2B5qBL._SS400_.jpg)

I'd say 'no'.  It's my favorite of Adams' operas.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: jochanaan on May 22, 2009, 08:50:35 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on May 22, 2009, 05:21:05 AM
But isn't this a piece of garbage? [image cut]
Quote from: Wendell_E on May 22, 2009, 07:16:55 AM
I'd say 'no'.  It's my favorite of Adams' operas.
I agree.  I saw it live here in Denver last summer, and it's a fine piece of musical theater. :D
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on May 22, 2009, 09:28:56 PM
Horatio Parker wrote an opera called Mona that won the Metropolitan Opera's prize for best composition in 1911.  Unfortunately I can find no recording of it anywhere...  :'(
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Harpo on July 28, 2009, 06:23:07 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on May 22, 2009, 07:16:55 AM
I'd say 'no'.  It's my favorite of Adams' operas.

I've only seen "Klinghoffer" in a film version on TV. I liked it.

Name-dropping--I went to music camp with John Adams in 1962. He was 15. The camp is mentioned in his recent autobography, but his memories of it are different from mine. I do remember him playing clarinet, but apparently he did a lot of conducting, too, and claims that he was thrown out of camp because he led a campaign to let him (rather than the camp director) conduct the final concert. He looks pretty much the same now, except that his hair and stubble are gray.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Slezak on July 28, 2009, 06:31:37 AM
  I think Menotti's first opera, Amelia al Ballo, is a masterpiece. Joseph Baber wrote Rumpelstiltskin, which is hardly ever heard, but a great work. Thomas Pasatieri and Calrysle Floyd's works are quite good, and very listenable.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Trouble on July 30, 2009, 05:44:13 AM
Three pages on this subject and, unless I somehow missed it, not once did I see a mention of Menotti's superb The Consul or even his Saint of Bleecker Street.   :o ::)
For shame!
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: Guido on July 09, 2010, 01:44:00 PM
Quote from: False_Dmitry on July 09, 2010, 12:27:30 PM
However, poor ol' Barber is staged so very rarely that I don't think his operas have really been "given the bird" by theatre audiences!  :(  I've never seen VANESSA live (I wonder if anyone here has?).  ANTHONY & CLEOPATRA suffered from an (allegedly) poorly-conceived production at its premiere based around a number of technical effects which successively failed each night, bringing a torrent of abuse down upon the show.  Barber was later persuaded to revise the piece (Menotti talked him into doing so, making some judicious cuts and revisions), and the Revised Version ought to work well on stage...   I only know it from playing-over the Vocal Score, though.   It's something of a tragedy that in his Centenary Year this year,  VANESSA isn't getting even a concert performance anywhere I'm aware of :(

I quite agree about Barber's operas - I really wish at least Vanessa would get done more... I really do love it despite its flaws. Somehow on record it seems to add up to less than the sum of its parts, but I cant figure out why - it should be Great - so many fantastic moments throughout the score, great singing parts, good characters, great arias... but as I say somehow there seems to be something not quite right. Really you have to judge these things on the stage though. I only like parts of Antony and Cleopatra and I think the revised version is miles better than the original - essentially he cut out around an ours worth of politics and expanded the lovers scenes a bit (including adding a gorgeous duet which could ironically only be described as Putinian!). Barber really couldn't write in a bombastic mode and Zeferelli kept asking for more and more fanfares and the like. I think most people are agreed that it was Zeferelli's fault that it failed so spectacularly, but of all Shakespeare's plays, surely Antony and Cleopatra was not the most obvious one to choose for an adaptation! Shakespeare is already a risky prospect when left in the original for opera... It was Barber's favourite of the plays though possibly for sentimental reasons in that his sister had been Cleopatra in a production in their youth. The third act is the best act and remains unchanged between the versions - Cleopatra's music is superb and is surely worth a revival of the operas alone. I know you don't like her, but I cannot imagine a more ideal Vanessa than Renée Fleming, but apparently she says she's not in love with the piece, or at least she wasn't 13 years ago when she was asked. She recorded Vanessa's aria though and it's absolutely ravishing.
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: listener on July 09, 2010, 11:23:49 PM
quote
I've never seen VANESSA live (I wonder if anyone here has?)

Vanessa
by Samuel Barber

April 28, May 3, 5, and 7, 2011, at 8 pm   Matinée April 30 at 3 pm
In English with English surtitles

Directed by Glynis Leyshon. Designed by Pam Johnson

With Wendy Nielsen as Vanessa, Stephanie Marshall as Erika, and Adam Luther as Anatol.

The other operas in their season are Rossini's La Cenerentola,  Handel's Rodelinda, and Puccini's La Bohème

http://www.pov.bc.ca/2010-11.html
Title: Re: American Opera? (and English opera too!)
Post by: False_Dmitry on July 10, 2010, 01:27:44 AM
Thanks for the heads-up about the VANESSA production at Pacific Opera, Listener :)  I'm glad to see the piece is getting an airing, and I wish them well with it.  Sadly it's a bit too far for me to get there :(