For me, this certainly is:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/08/8e/998b619009a013a71ac28110.L.jpg)
I've been aware for years of Emma Kirkby and her glowing reputation, but I'd never owned a recording that featured her until this one arrived today (bought for the bargain basement price of £1.48 from an offshore [tax-free] UK seller). My copy has the reissue cover artwork, rather than that shown above. I just played it through my AKG K501s - and wow! Isn't Kirkby's voice divine? Bowman's is pretty beautiful, too, as countertenors go.
So, with its period instrument playing, impeccable sound and a performance so wonderfully well balanced, this is now my reference recording over the other three versions I own (and that includes the visceral Rinaldo Alessandrini recording on Naive).
Quote from: Mark on June 11, 2007, 03:03:13 AM
For me, this certainly is:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/08/8e/998b619009a013a71ac28110.L.jpg)
I've been aware for years of Emma Kirkby and her glowing reputation, but I'd never owned a recording that featured her until this one arrived today (bought for the bargain basement price of £1.48 from an offshore [tax-free] UK seller). My copy has the reissue cover artwork, rather than that shown above. I just played it through my AKG K501s - and wow! Isn't Kirkby's voice divine? Bowman's is pretty beautiful, too, as countertenors go.
So, with its period instrument playing, impeccable sound and a performance so wonderfully well balanced, this is now my reference recording over the other three versions I own (and that includes the visceral Rinaldo Alessandrini recording on Naive).
Jolly good I say, that is indeed a a fine recording, its part of a big box I am playing now, with 5 cd's of her wonderful art, and that of James Bowman.
This box was however only released in Holland for just 10,- euro's, since her fanbase in the Netherlands is the biggest in Europe.
On the first cd is your recording, all of it! Click on it, and it will enlarge.
I also adore that recording, however over the years I've come to regard it as a bit of a guilty pleasure as I've listened to more sophisticated friends subjecting both Kirkby and Bowman to destructive criticism.
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 11, 2007, 03:12:37 AM
I also adore that recording, however over the years I've come to regard it as a bit of a guilty pleasure as I've listened to more sophisticated friends subjecting both Kirkby and Bowman to destructive criticism.
Me thinks your own ears are the best judge right?
Quote from: Choo Choo on June 11, 2007, 03:12:37 AM
I also adore that recording, however over the years I've come to regard it as a bit of a guilty pleasure as I've listened to more sophisticated friends subjecting both Kirkby and Bowman to destructive criticism.
Trust only your own ears, my friend. ;)
Quote from: Harry on June 11, 2007, 03:14:01 AM
Me thinks your own ears are the best judge right?
Oh certainly. My feelings re. sopranos are not that far removed from yours, Harry.
Quote from: Mark on June 11, 2007, 03:14:51 AM
Trust only your own ears, my friend. ;)
Oh I do, Mark, I do. :D
Mark, the tile of the thread ends with a question mark but I gather from your opening post is more of a statement! ;D
Well, it's Alessandrini for me!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V-EU1FGEL._SS500_.jpg)
When I hear the Hogwood, or the one by Robert King for that matter: it sounds thouroughly British. But, if it works for you - enjoy! :)
Q
Quote from: Que on June 11, 2007, 03:29:09 AM
Mark, the tile of the thread end with a question mark but I gather from your opening post is more of a statement! ;D
I didn't want to be controversial by appearing to claim in the thread title that this
is the benchmark recording. ;)
QuoteWell, it's Alessandrini for me!
When I hear the Hogwood, or the one by Robert King for that matter, I don't hear Pergolesi's Stabat Mater but more something like: Rule, Britannia! rules the waves....
In other words: it sounds thouroughly British. But, if it works for you - enjoy! :)
Q
I think I prefer the softness and sweetness of Kirkby's fruit. :)
Frenchified Pergolesi - Veronique Gens/Gerard Lesne/Seminario musicale
Flemish Cover Painting - Rogier van der Weyden ;D
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2406/0000275531jr7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Quote from: Mark on June 11, 2007, 03:35:36 AM
I think I prefer the softness and sweetness of Kirkby's fruit. :)
She is (and sings) lovely, Mark, no doubt about it. :)
Quote from: masolino on June 11, 2007, 03:36:54 AM
Frenchified Pergolesi - Veronique Gens/Gerard Lesne/Seminario musicale
I used to be really into Gérard Lesne for a while, but now I can't stand him.. ??? ;D
Q
I own this one and I'm perfectly happy with it.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/618H36TM3DL._SS500_.gif)
Quote from: masolino on June 11, 2007, 03:36:54 AM
Frenchified Pergolesi - Veronique Gens/Gerard Lesne/Seminario musicale
Flemish Cover Painting - Rogier van der Weyden ;D
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2406/0000275531jr7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Hmm ... I like Gens.
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2007, 03:39:51 AM
I own this one and I'm perfectly happy with it.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/618H36TM3DL._SS500_.gif)
Oooh! I'll bet that's good. :)
Quote from: Que on June 11, 2007, 03:29:09 AM
Mark, the tile of the thread ends with a question mark but I gather from your opening post is more of a statement! ;D
Well, it's Alessandrini for me!
When I hear the Hogwood, or the one by Robert King for that matter, I don't hear Pergolesi's Stabat Mater but more something like: Rule, Britannia! rule the waves....
In other words: it sounds thouroughly British. But, if it works for you - enjoy! :)
Q
Pergolesi alla maniera tedesca (X2)
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2011/00002269381ef9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
When I hear this, I hear Pergolesi's music accompanying the following words :
Tilge, Höchester, meine Sünden... :)
Quote from: masolino on June 11, 2007, 03:47:01 AM
Pergolesi alla maniera tedesca (X2)
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2011/00002269381ef9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
When I hear this, I hear Pergolesi's music accompanying the following words :
Tilge, Höchester, meine Sünden... :)
Oh, but that is not just Italian with an
accent but a real
translation - by a master writer no less! :)
And I don't have it, I'll certainly consider this!
Q
Quote from: masolino on June 11, 2007, 03:47:01 AM
Pergolesi alla maniera tedesca (X2)
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2011/00002269381ef9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
When I hear this, I hear Pergolesi's music accompanying the following words :
Tilge, Höchester, meine Sünden... :)
I actually bought that for the Bach. It's a very good recording, to say the least.
This stuff has short shelf-life. Along with flute and most guitar music. $:)
Quote from: BorisG on June 11, 2007, 05:16:39 PM
This stuff has short shelf-life. Along with flute and most guitar music. $:)
Pergolesi HAD short shelf-life. He was barely 30 when he expired. ;)
Quote from: Bunny on June 11, 2007, 04:34:53 PM
I actually bought that for the Bach. It's a very good recording, to say the least.
Did Hengelbrock throw in his chorus for the last movement? I don't remember
since the cd has not been with me for some time.
Quote from: masolino on June 11, 2007, 07:40:35 PM
Did Hengelbrock throw in his chorus for the last movement? I don't remember
since the cd has not been with me for some time.
Stax for classical indeed. The first poster that I see with these headphones.
Bravo.
Quote from: Mark on June 11, 2007, 03:42:21 AM
[re Bonney/Scholl]
Oooh! I'll bet that's good. :)
I have it myself, and I'm not convinced. Two beautiful voices, but they don't match as they ought, both timbrally and stylistically, to my ears. The couplings - a couple of Pergolesi Salve Reginas, one in F minor, one in A minor, one for each of the two featured singers - therefore come off better, and are beautiful pieces in their own right too.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 01:16:20 AM
I have it myself, and I'm not convinced. Two beautiful voices, but they don't match as they ought, both timbrally and stylistically, to my ears. The couplings - a couple of Pergolesi Salve Reginas, one in F minor, one in A minor, one for each of the two featured singers - therefore come off better, and are beautiful pieces in their own right too.
I had the opportunity to hear the first movement, Luke, and I agree: it doesn't work. Bonney uses way too much vibrato, and sounds positively operatic beside Scholl. On the Kirkby/Bowman disc, Kikrby's flawlessly legato lines are like spun gold.
I've never been much of a fan of Kirkby, I'm afraid. Or James Bowman, for that matter.
How about this one?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NEPDWMERL._SS400_.jpg)
If it's anything like as good as the Vivaldi disc Daniels and Biondi did, back in 2002, then it is definitely worrth a listen.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on June 12, 2007, 02:10:33 AM
I've never been much of a fan of Kirkby, I'm afraid. Or James Bowman, for that matter.
That is honey to my ears! ;D
Sorry, The David Daniels recording is a real disappointment. The accompanying pieces are excellent, but Galante seems to have decided to pull a fast one and it completely robs it of contemplation, repose, grief. It merely sounds hectic and the singers are not given space to express properly. Also, as Daniels really needs a little time to develop tone on notes into that beautiful sweetness, rushing him means his voice is shown to less than good advantage. Much the same with the soprano.
I enjoy the Scholl disc, though agree it somehow does not quite work.
At the other extreme there is a romantic soup made of it by Abbado with Margaret Marshall and Lucia Valentini Terrani, it is a wonderful disc, Marshall is such a beautiful singer; but I could not honestly offer it as prime recommendation.
The Allessandri with Mingardo is remarkable, pared down to the basics, almost too austere; the piece needs a modicum of wallowing.
I have never heard the Kirkby version, it is news to me if Bowman sounds anything other than as though he was tremulously sucking a lemon; but than as I have not heard it, it would not be fair of me to try to taint it. But I have got rid of several discs because Bowman wailed chunks of music and ruined them for me.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 03:21:43 AM
The Allessandri with Mingardo is remarkable, pared down to the basics, almost too austere; the piece needs a modicum of wallowing.
My feelings exactly with regard to that disc.
QuoteI have never heard the Kirkby version, it is news to me if Bowman sounds anything other than as though he was tremulously sucking a lemon; but than as I have not heard it, it would not be fair of me to try to taint it. But I have got rid of several discs because Bowman wailed chunks of music and ruined them for me.
Mike
Kirkby and Bowman seem pretty ideally paired to these ears. Nothing jars, everything is suitably reverential when it ought to be, and the sound is just exquisite.
Thought I'd share, with those who've not heard the Kirkby/Bowman coupling, the first movement:
Kirkby/Bowman - Stabat Mater (http://download.yousendit.com/4C1B6879159A01BE)
The link will work for 7 days or 100 downloads.
Enjoy. :)
Quote from: Harry on June 12, 2007, 12:13:51 AM
Stax for classical indeed. The first poster that I see with these headphones.
Bravo.
Thanks...I agree they perform exceedingly well for the price. It's absolutely necessary to hear
the recordings cleanly and clearly if one wants to make sensible comments about them.
Quote from: Mark on June 12, 2007, 03:53:58 AM
Thought I'd share, with those who've not heard the Kirkby/Bowman coupling, the first movement:
Kirkby/Bowman - Stabat Mater (http://download.yousendit.com/4C1B6879159A01BE)
The link will work for 7 days or 100 downloads.
Enjoy. :)
Thanks for the upload. It really reminds me of Hogwood's interpretation of Mozart Requiem
(Introitus) -- very similar approach and almost the same degree of expressivity. He: is it
suitable to perform Mozart and Pergolesi using the same stylistic palatte? ???
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 04:09:24 AM
Thanks for the upload. It really reminds me of Hogwood's interpretation of Mozart Requieum
(Introitus) -- very similar approach and almost the same degree of expressivity. He: is it
suitable to perform Mozart and Pergolesi using the same stylistic palatte? ???
And thank you for the 'tip-off' about the Mozart Requiem. ;)
If you say it's similar in style to Hogwood's Pergolesi Stabat Mater, then I need to check it out. :)
The Stabat Mater is a work Mrs. Rock and I both love to distraction. We currently own on CD Dutoit/Anderson/Bartoli and Gracis/Freni/Berganzi. We want a HIP version or two but have the same problem here as we did with acquiring a HIP Messiah (some may remember the thread at the old forum): we can't stand male altos. The only composer who wrote well for the bargain-counter tenor was, in my opinion, P.D.Q. Bach.
I don't understand why every HIP set we've sampled has a male alto. Why is that considered authentic? I mean, they use an adult woman to sing the soprano part. I haven't heard one that uses a boy. So why not a woman in the alto part too? Why this peculiar obsession with a highly artificial, and to me, silly sounding voice?
So my question is: can anyone recommend a good HIP version that employs two women?
Sarge
Sarge, this won't help at all, but there was a terrific recording made in 1970 with Societa Cameristica di Lugano under Edwin Loehrer which features what sound like two women. Can't confirm any more details as my search of the net proved useless last time, and the sampler CD on which only the opening 'Stabat Mater' appears doesn't give any helpful information. The earlier of the two recordings on Naxos also has two female singers: Faulkner (sop)/Gonda (alt)/Camerata Budapest/Halasz. Beautiful performance this. Neither of these are HIP, though, AFAIK.
Funny you should mention boys' voices in connection with this work. I have, on a BBC Music Magazine cover CD, a recording with AAM and the lads of New College, Oxford under Higginbottom. Same disc features a cracking Scarlatti Stabat Mater, but with the BBC Singers instead. The all-boy thing really switched me off - a bunch of (admittedly talented) young chaps ruining a tender and often deeply mournful work, IMO. ;D
Shame you and the wife don't like countertenors. I find them wonderful to listen to ... and truth be told, if I were ever to have become a singer, I'd have loved to have had that range.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 04:28:50 AM
The Stabat Mater is a work Mrs. Rock and I both love to distraction. We currently own on CD Dutoit/Anderson/Bartoli and Gracis/Freni/Berganzi. We want a HIP version or two but have the same problem here as we did with acquiring a HIP Messiah (some may remember the thread at the old forum): we can't stand male altos.
So my question is: can anyone recommend a good HIP version that employs two women?
Sarge,
The Alessandrini has two female singers - and very good ones too: Gemma Bertagnoli (soprano) and Sara Mingardo (contralto). It's my preferred recording anyway - magnificent. That means no "Romantic" frills btw - this one goes deep...
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/3162XDM4NHL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.de/Stabat-Mater-Katalog-2005-Alessandrini/dp/B00068B8JI/ref=sr_1_1/302-0148587-3063235?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181656787&sr=1-1) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xIt0pnt3L._SS400_.jpg)
Q
Quote from: Que on June 12, 2007, 06:05:41 AM
Sarge,
The Alessandrini has two female singers - and very good ones too: Gemma Bertagnoli (soprano) and Sara Mingardo (contralto). It's my preferred recording anyway - magnificent.
I listened to the clips: yes! Exactly what I've been looking for. I ordered the Naive version from JPC. Slightly more expensive than Amazon but it's in stock at JPC. Wonderful! :)
Mark: I appreciate your recommendation but Q's is what I'm after. Thanks anyway.
Sarge
No worries, Sarge - every ear is different. ;)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 04:28:50 AM
I don't understand why every HIP set we've sampled has a male alto. Why is that considered authentic? I mean, they use an adult woman to sing the soprano part. I haven't heard one that uses a boy. So why not a woman in the alto part too? Why this peculiar obsession with a highly artificial, and to me, silly sounding voice?
Ask Italian composers and musicians of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, perhaps? ;D "Falsetto" is definitely not a word invented in the 20th century. ;D
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 06:38:36 AM
Ask Italian composers and musicians of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, perhaps? ;D "Falsetto" is definitely not a word invented in the 20th century. ;D
Yes, I understand that. But my question is: why are the genders mixed on so-called HIP recordings? When this piece was performed in Italy in the 18th century, did they really use a female soprano and a male alto? If so, why? If females were allowed to sing in the cathedrals and theaters, why wouldn't they also use a female alto? Hers is a natural, and a far more powerful instrument than a falsettist trying to reach into a woman's range. If the work employed a castrato, and that's the justification for using a male alto today, I find that a bogus argument. A falsettist is in no way comparable to that mutilated horror.
Sarge
Quote from: Mark on June 12, 2007, 04:41:27 AM
Funny you should mention boys' voices in connection with this work. I have, on a BBC Music Magazine cover CD, a recording with AAM and the lads of New College, Oxford under Higginbottom. Same disc features a cracking Scarlatti Stabat Mater, but with the BBC Singers instead. The all-boy thing really switched me off - a bunch of (admittedly talented) young chaps ruining a tender and often deeply mournful work, IMO. ;D
I agree that the only parts in the Stabat Mater that would work with boy choirists are the duets, specially the last one. They would make a mess of the virtuosic arias, but listen to the sound track for
Amadeus and hear boy choirs work wonder in
Quando corpus morietur and of course,
Amen.
Quote
Shame you and the wife don't like countertenors. I find them wonderful to listen to ... and truth be told, if I were ever to have become a singer, I'd have loved to have had that range.
A recommendation for "bargain"-counter (LOL) tenor voice lovers, and it's a real bargain.
The Naxos recording has male voices for both soprano and alto parts:
(http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/6462/51qhza71cwlss500ci0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
I personally like Jörg Waschinski's voice very much, and Michael Chance is always fine in this repertory. Helmut Müller-Brühl's conducting can be a bit more sensuous I think, but it's not bad at all. The point: very good male sopranists do exist who can sing this music and they need to be heard more.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 06:48:08 AM
Yes, I understand that. But my question is: why are the genders mixed on so-called HIP recordings? When this piece was performed in Italy in the 18th century, did they really use a female soprano and a male alto? If so, why? If females were allowed to sing in the cathedrals and theaters, why wouldn't they also use a female alto? Hers is a natural, and a far more powerful instrument than a falsettist trying to reach into a woman's range. If the work employed a castrato, and that's the justification for using a male alto today, I find that a bogus argument. A falsettist is in no way comparable to that mutilated horror.
Sarge
The answer is yes. Handel used both falsettists and female alto voices for solos in his oratorios (somewhat interchangeably), and that should in part reflects what was done in Italy at the time as well. Falsettists were (and are) not castrati and people listened to them partly for the reason that they could sing in churches, and partly simply because they liked the voice. I really don't think musicians before 1750 "gendered" the voice as much as we do today. The question of tessituras probably interested them more than that of timbre. The French counterpart of falsetto voice is the
haute-contre, which has a range that lies somewhat lower than the alto but quite a bit higher than the tenor. Hautes-contres are not castrati either and yet they mostly have the heroic parts in French Baroque operas. So trying to draw a line between male/female in the over range of human voice probably makes more sense today than it did centuries ago.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 06:48:08 AM
Yes, I understand that. But my question is: why are the genders mixed on so-called HIP recordings? When this piece was performed in Italy in the 18th century, did they really use a female soprano and a male alto? If so, why? If females were allowed to sing in the cathedrals and theaters, why wouldn't they also use a female alto? Hers is a natural, and a far more powerful instrument than a falsettist trying to reach into a woman's range. If the work employed a castrato, and that's the justification for using a male alto today, I find that a bogus argument. A falsettist is in no way comparable to that mutilated horror.
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 07:08:48 AM
The answer is yes. Handel used both falsettists and female alto voices for solos in his oratiorios (somewhat interchangeably), and that should in part reflects what was done in Italy at the time as well. Falsettists are not castrati and people listened to them partly for the reason that they could sing in churches, and partly simply because they liked the voice. I really don't think musicians before 1750 "gendered" the voice as much as we do today. The question of tessituras probably interested them more than that of timbre. The French counterpart of falsetto voice is the haute-contre, which has a range that lies somewhat lower than the alto's but quite a bit higher than most tenor's. Haute-contres are not castrati either and yet they mostly have the heroic parts in French Baroque operas.
Alessandrini writes in the booklet with his recording that the original performances were almost certainly done by
castrati, and that "the modern countertenor was completely unknown at the time, or at least not heard in a solo situation", and that therefore he feels that a choice for the female voice was the best option as a replacement for the castrato.
And I feel the same, having heard opera (Vivaldi) with parts for castrati: the countertenor is not
necessarily the best option in comparison with a female contralto with an appropriate
timbre.
Q
Quote from: Que on June 12, 2007, 07:18:57 AM
Alessandrini writes in the booklet with his recording that the original performances were almost certainly done by castrati, and that "the modern countertenor was completely unknown at the time, or at least not heard in a solo situation", and that therefore he feels that a choice for the female voice was the best option as a replacement for the castrato.
And I feel the same, having heard opera (Vivaldi) with parts for castrati: the countertenor is not necessarily the best option in comparison with a female contralto with an appropriate timbre.
Q
I think perhaps that reasoning should be limited to solo performances and only those in certain (18th-century?) Italian repertoires. Use of falsetti in Monteverdi was not unheard-of, and I do consider parts in the
Selva morale to be solos. And of course, as I said,
Handel and Bach did compose and perform music with falsetto soloists (both sopranos and altos). Bach's BWV199 was composed for Adam Immanuel Weldig in c. 1708 but it was probably later sung in Leipzig by his wife. [BTW what does Alessandrini mean when he said "the modern countertenors"? Does he think falsetti are not the same as today's ct?]
Anyways, returning to Serge's initial question above, I would say Pergolesi probably heard (or he may have been dead before this) one or two castrati sing his Stabat Mater when he composed it. But for Bach, who did a complete arranged setting of Pergolesi's music (Psalm 51 - see above), he could have used any of the combinations mentioned this far - two male singers (choirists or castrati or falsetti), one female singer and one male falsettist, or two female singers (the least likely scenario - because Bach wasn't known to use female alto voices a lot in his cantatas).
So using a female soprano and a male alto voice isn't exactly "inauthentic" practice here either, because the music could have been performed outside of Italy (as in Bach's case) this way, even in the 18th century.
Mark, I have listened to the track you hyperlinked and I agree, it sounds excellent. While we are on a Hogwood binge, he produced a simply superb Mozart great Mass in C, Arleen Auger is well to the fore. It is as good as any recording that I know. It is on Decca, it keeps changing its spots and pairings. It does not seem to be generally available just now, the only sign of it on Amazon is for a fancy price.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 08:32:16 AM
Mark, I have listened to the track you hyperlinked and I agree, it sounds excellent. While we are on a Hogwood binge, he produced a simply superb Mozart great Mass in C, Arleen Auger is well to the fore. It is as good as any recording that I know. It is on Decca, it keeps changing its spots and pairings. It does not seem to be generally available just now, the only sign of it on Amazon is for a fancy price.
Mike
Hear, hear! Even better than the Requiem, Mark!
Strongly recommended.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41643EQYJVL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Dawson-Ainsley-Thomas-Hogwood/dp/B00000E43Q/ref=sr_1_29/105-0406394-2330807?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181666639&sr=1-29)
(click for link - and go for it! ;D)
Q
Q, Well done, I only tried the UK site plus CDconnection.com
I urge this recording on anyone who might be tempted.
Mike
Que, Mike - the Great Mass in C is also readily available on Amazon.co.uk:
Hogwood - Mozart Mass in C (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Mass-Minor-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B00000E43Q/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b/202-6841574-6692634?ie=UTF8&qid=1181650900&sr=8-1).
Good price, too. :)
Quote from: Que on June 12, 2007, 08:46:11 AM
Hear, hear! Even better than the Requiem, Mark! Strongly recommended.
Q
Q, do you mean the music or the interpretation? I am inclined to agree with you more
if it's the music. For c minor mass I think I will urge people to hear the more recent
Langree recording with Dessay and Gens on the high parts who have purer voices
than Auger in particular. (I might like it more if H. had Kirkby here like in the
Requiem.) That Hogwood also employs a boy-and-men's choir in this recording adds a few
points, but most people listen to this work for the soprano fireworks arias and duet ;)
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6928/940976oo7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 09:19:52 AM
Q, do you mean the music or the interpretation? I am inclined to agree with you more
if it's the music. For c minor mass I think I will urge people to hear the more recent
Langree recording with Dessay and Gens on the high parts who have a purer voice
than Auger in particular. (I might like it more if he had Kirkby here as he does in the
Requiem.) That Hogwood has a boy-and-men's choir in this recording adds a few
points, but... ;)
Both, but I don't know the recording by Langrée with Dessay and Gens, which is quite recent - no?
I
particularly like Auger in the Hogwood btw. :) Though I like Dessay and Gens too - would love to check out the Langrée!
Q
Quote from: Que on June 12, 2007, 09:31:51 AM
Both, but I don't know the recording by Langrée with Dessay and Gens, which is quite recent - no?
I particularly like Auger in the Hogwood btw. :) Though I like Dessay and Gens too - would love to check out the Langrée!
Q
Langree recording out last year I believe. I prefer Dawson's contribution in the Hogwood mass in c, even though I think Auger may have a more perfect technique (in this recording anyway). For some reason, I tend to hear more maturity and experience than elan in Auger's voice. Sorry to use this analogy, but she sometimes sounds more like a grandma (or at least a madame) rather than a mademoiselle to me, and Mozart's Konstanze couldn't have been much older than 20 when she gave the world-premiere (;D) of these vocal fireworks.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 04:28:50 AM
The Stabat Mater is a work Mrs. Rock and I both love to distraction. We currently own on CD Dutoit/Anderson/Bartoli and Gracis/Freni/Berganzi. We want a HIP version or two but have the same problem here as we did with acquiring a HIP Messiah (some may remember the thread at the old forum): we can't stand male altos. The only composer who wrote well for the bargain-counter tenor was, in my opinion, P.D.Q. Bach.
I don't understand why every HIP set we've sampled has a male alto. Why is that considered authentic? I mean, they use an adult woman to sing the soprano part. I haven't heard one that uses a boy. So why not a woman in the alto part too? Why this peculiar obsession with a highly artificial, and to me, silly sounding voice?
So my question is: can anyone recommend a good HIP version that employs two women?
Sarge
Harnoncourt uses a female cast of singers.
Eva Mei (Soprano)
Marjana Lipovsek (Mezzo Soprano)
Quote from: Erevos on June 12, 2007, 11:06:29 AM
Harnoncourt uses a female cast of singers.
Eva Mei (Soprano)
Marjana Lipovsek (Mezzo Soprano)
How well does Harnoncourt handle the bitter-sweet mood of this music? :D
Alessandrini's version on Naive is one of the first classical CDs i bought, simply on a recommendation of a friend who adored that piece....i must say that is quite excellent indeed, and that version is very minimalist and with a stunning sound quality.
As Masolino mentionned it already, i quite like the revisited version by Bach too (Psalm 51, BWV1083). I only have the version in Bach Brilliant complete edition. Would someone care to recommend a good version of this work too please ?
Thanks :)
Quote from: papy on June 12, 2007, 12:52:56 PM
Alessandrini's version on Naive is one of the first classical CDs i bought, simply on a recommendation of a friend who adored that piece....i must say that is quite excellent indeed, and that version is very minimalist and with a stunning sound quality.
As Masolino mentionned it already, i quite like the revisited version by Bach too (Psalm 51, BWV1083). I only have the version in Bach Brilliant complete edition. Would someone care to recommend a good version of this work too please ?
Thanks :)
Do you also request two female voices in this recommendation? Even the most recent SACD version of this music has a male alto...but an excellent one nevertheless, Daniel Taylor. The filler is likely the soprano version of BWV 82.
BACH: Psalm 51 (After Pergolesi's Stabat Mater); Cantata 82 "Ich habe genug" - Karina Gauvin, soprano/Daniel Taylor, countertenor/Les Violons du Roy/Bernard Labadie - ATMA Multichannel SACD
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1838/catc22342sain4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
However, as I stated above, it is far from unlikely for Bach to have staged his Pergolesi revision with a female soprano and a male alto. Perhaps when the Bach version becomes as well known as the Pergolesi original, we will see recordings with two (sometimes very lush) female voices. ;)
Hi Masolino,
Thanks for the recommendation.
I was so used to the alessandrini version, that hearing the bach one with male/female was a surprise initially, but i like both versions. Had to check for the bach/brilliant version, but yes, it is a male alto.... it is... >:D ;D
(http://www.sytsebuwalda.eu/images/fotos/portret5.jpg)
http://www.sytsebuwalda.eu/site.html (http://www.sytsebuwalda.eu/site.html)
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 12:00:25 PM
How well does Harnoncourt handle the bitter-sweet mood of this music? :D
Very good... his version is a bit more dramatic and operatic than most versions of Stabat Mater mentioned here.
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 07:08:48 AM
The answer is yes. Handel used both falsettists and female alto voices for solos in his oratorios...
Quote from: Que on June 12, 2007, 07:18:57 AM
Alessandrini writes in the booklet with his recording that the original performances were almost certainly done by castrati...
Masolino, Que, thank you both very much for your replies.
Sarge
Quote from: Erevos on June 12, 2007, 01:41:37 PM
Very good... his version is a bit more dramatic and operatic than most versions of Stabat Mater mentioned here.
That is good to know! (Harnoncourt also recorded
Haydn's Stabat Mater, and he may have chosen to play it similarly there.) But it is not a "romantic soup" like the Abbado/Marshall/whatshername DG recording mentioned above, I hope? :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 01:57:44 PM
Masolino, Que, thank you both very much for your replies.
Sarge
Hi Sarge you are welcome. I actually learned a bit from trying to answer your question properly. :)
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 09:19:52 AM
Q, do you mean the music or the interpretation? I am inclined to agree with you more
if it's the music. For c minor mass I think I will urge people to hear the more recent
Langree recording with Dessay and Gens on the high parts who have purer voices
than Auger in particular. (I might like it more if H. had Kirkby here like in the
Requiem.) That Hogwood also employs a boy-and-men's choir in this recording adds a few
points, but most people listen to this work for the soprano fireworks arias and duet ;)
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6928/940976oo7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Having listened to both of these recordings, I can say that I consistently prefer the Hogwood. In fact, the superlative voice of Auger is a great reason why. I have many of her other recordings, and Hogwood goes with out saying. I don't know what 'purer' is supposed to me, or how it could ever be used to describe the quality of a voice, but I have very few gripes with this recording. Hogwood is one of Mozart's most consistently faithful interpreters, and he seems less likely to strip the piece of Mozart, as others do.
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 07:39:17 PM
That is good to know! (Harnoncourt also recorded Haydn's Stabat Mater, and he may have chosen to play it similarly there.) But it is not a "romantic soup" like the Abbado/Marshall/whatshername DG recording mentioned above, I hope? :)
I think it's typical Harnoncourt... with authentic instruments, but without trying to be 100% HIP.
It's nowhere near Abbado, he doesn't transform Pergolesi's work into a romantic opera :D
Quote from: Steve on June 12, 2007, 08:15:08 PM
Having listened to both of these recordings, I can say that I consistently prefer the Hogwood. In fact, the superlative voice of Auger is a great reason why. I have many of her other recordings, and Hogwood goes with out saying. I don't know what 'purer' is supposed to me, or how it could ever be used to describe the quality of a voice, but I have very few gripes with this recording. Hogwood is one of Mozart's most consistently faithful interpreters, and he seems less likely to strip the piece of Mozart, as others do.
Yes you may like Auger's voice, but do observe the differences between her voice and say that of Dessay, for example. ;D BTW what do you mean by saying someone "strips" the piece of Mozart? Really I find H's interpretation of the c-minor mass a bit too ceremonious and foursquared for the work.
Quote from: Erevos on June 12, 2007, 11:18:31 PM
I think it's typical Harnoncourt... with authentic instruments, but without trying to be 100% HIP.
It's nowhere near Abbado, he doesn't transform Pergolesi's work into a romantic opera :D
Great again, because Harnoncourt can occasionally overdo his "slasher shock" bits in baroque music and then the music would start to sound...contrived (for lack of a better term) to just any listener.
Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2007, 01:04:03 PM
Do you also request two female voices in this recommendation? Even the most recent SACD version of this music has a male alto...but an excellent one nevertheless, Daniel Taylor. The filler is likely the soprano version of BWV 82.
BACH: Psalm 51 (After Pergolesi's Stabat Mater); Cantata 82 "Ich habe genug" - Karina Gauvin, soprano/Daniel Taylor, countertenor/Les Violons du Roy/Bernard Labadie - ATMA Multichannel SACD
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1838/catc22342sain4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
However, as I stated above, it is far from unlikely for Bach to have staged his Pergolesi revision with a female soprano and a male alto. Perhaps when the Bach version becomes as well known as the Pergolesi original, we will see recordings with two (sometimes very lush) female voices. ;)
I have this recording and while it is quite fine, the period purists should be warned: Les Violons du Roy use modern instruments but with reproduction baroque bows and "period inspired" bowing. I'm not sure whether their instruments are strung with gut or steel, but when I heard them perform, it didn't sound particularly gut-like. Aside from that, it's a fine recording and Karina Gauvin and Daniel Taylor sing beatifully. The Hengelbrock recording is on period instruments.
I suppose the Kirkby/Bowman version at the beginning of the thread may now be more easily recognised by that cover:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CRkPZkzPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Stabat Mater is only a small part of what is to be discovered regarding Pergolesi works. Any other favourite soprano/countertenor pairs for Stabat Mater than those already mentioned? Some non-countertenor perhaps?
My first listen to Pergolesi's Stabat Mater - music which fits Easter very well. My only version and it's non-HIP. I find it beautiful and touching with involved singing from Berganza and Freni. What do you think of this version? Probably I should try a HIP-version as well. I see that they have Alessandrini at my local library :).
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028942712324.jpg)
I think I may need to revisit this work as well, as I've recently been revisiting a lot of religious choral music. I picked up a copy many years ago after being entranced by the small excerpt in the Amadeus soundtrack (back before I was collecting classical in any serious way). That one was done with a boy's choir, and I still find it hauntingly beautiful. The full CD I picked up at the time was Dutoit, which I haven't heard in years. I'll have to dig it out this weekend...
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/ca/5c/79b5225b9da0a8af58cdd010.L._AA240_.jpg)
Don't really feel I am qualified to weigh in since the only version of this work I have is the version by Hogwood ...
That Berganza and Freni version was my introduction to the work on LP. That was a long time ago and I have not heard it for over 20 years. I enjoyed it at the time. Berganza was an excellent singer, we hardly hear of her now. Her performances on disc get next to no attention.
This piece had an enormous circulation in the 18th cent, partly perhaps due to the early death of the composer. There are various performing editions, one has the chorus taking a number of the movements. There is an elderly and dim recording of Ferrier that uses this version. I have also heard the entire piece arranged for chorus.
It has been claimed as the most published piece of music in the 18th cent. In his extensive setting of Psalm 51, Bach uses Pergolesi's music pretty much untouched until the final bars of the setting. Here is a beautiful recording of that hybrid piece.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xpiCcMJKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Much more than a mere curiosity. Rather a homage to a very beautiful work. It can become a wallow if taken too slowly, but it can become pedestrian if too fast and that means booting out one contender that ought to have been a strong one, Fabio Biondi with David Daniels. Biondi drives the whole thing as though his shirt tails were on fire. It destroys the repose and the contemplation that sits in the piece. The words are hardly given an opportunity to register. Daniel's has to move so quickly across the vocal lines that his tone is not permitted time to develop the emotion that sits at the heart of the piece.
It is a work that can yield to the relatively large or the small approach. I am listening right now to Abbado with a much pared down LSO and the juicy voices of Valentini Terrani and Margaret Marshall. Both are superb, not operatic, intimate. Of all the versions I know, no one opens the 'Quis est homo' as beautifully as Marshall; she was a specialist Mozart singer. This was recorded in 1985. Certainly not to be overlooked. Abbado keeps things moving along, without rushing and the orchestral colours are suitably dark.
At the other extreme in terms of scale, is the Alessandrini with Gemma Bertagnolli and Sara Mingardo. This is a real hair shirt version, one instrument to a part, stark in its approach. There is no cushion of sound. There is a plucked instrument in there and a tiny original instrumnet band. Interestingly, portamento is allowed. So this is not some clinical autopsy of the piece, but a very intimate and moving performance. As an aside, The setting by Pergolesi was commissioned by a brotherhood to replace one by Alesssandro Scarlatti that is also on this disc from Naive. I think this version uses as close to the original edition as can be found, so no wind parts.
More mainstream, perhaps more accessable is Christophe Rousset with Scholl and Barbara Bonney. Like the Abbado, we have use of an organ, the orchestral forces are more nourished than Alessandrini. Scholl's voice is less dark than Mingardo's. There is more obviously a blending of the two solo voices. There is the occasional grace note added at the ends of phrases in the vocal lines. It is a lovely version, though does not plumb the depths of the Mingardo one. The rhythms are more sprung here as against in the Alessandrini, where they are smoothed out somewhat. I don't prefer either way, they each work.
It is a really beautiful piece, melody after melody entice the ear, but it has a dark heart and a deal of emotional muscle that ought not to be overlooked and is not in the three versions above that I recommend.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 11, 2009, 11:59:29 PM
It is a really beautiful piece, melody after melody entice the ear, but it has a dark heart and a deal of emotional muscle that ought not to be overlooked and is not in the three versions above that I recommend.
Mike
Very much agree with that comment, Mike. And thanks for the fine and interesting write up. :)
Clearly an example of an old favourite that has suffered "prettyfication" in the past, at cost of its charcater and emotional intensity. When I first heard it he wondered what the big deal was all about - this being an all time favorite and all. I just found it a one dimensional drag... :-\ Can't remember which recording that was. I had Robert King for a while, but that is really
too sweet as well.
My favourite recording is by Alessandrini, and the Bach adaptation- which is not to be passed over! :) - in the recording by Thomas Hengelbrock (HM, posted a few pages back)
Q
Anyone familiar with the Roschmann/Labadie version on Dorian? I'm considering purchasing it.
Quote from: chasmaniac on February 24, 2011, 08:09:31 AM
Anyone familiar with the Roschmann/Labadie version on Dorian? I'm considering purchasing it.
Don't know anything about the Roschmann/Labadie version on Dorian. But I ordered a different version with Roschmann/Biondi on Virgin ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NEPDWMERL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Have had in my collection the Veronique Gens/Gerard Lesne recording that has been recently re-released on the cheap. Haven't listened to it for a while and faintly remember a rather judicious approach to this melodrama in sacred music. i.e. hopping a bit in the supposedly intense parts but lilting enough in the more lyrical sections. Also have the Robert King recording of which I remember even less.
[asin]B000006321[/asin]
Ordered a CD of Bloch's 'Schelomo' and 'Voice in the Wilderness' which I received yesterday. Just put it on the CD player and thought that it sounded most unlike Bloch's usual style. This was explained when I looked at the CD which featured Pergolesi's 'Stabat Mater'! Having said that I am pleased to have discovered this beautiful work, written, apparently, in the composer's final days when he was dying of TB in a monastery - which makes it even more extraordinary.
June Anderson in this version of Pergolesi Stabat Mater is fabulous. Just for her, you should listen to this Utube excerpt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIvO0sATcks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIvO0sATcks)
The cover of the CD is this one
[asin]B00000420A[/asin]
Quote from: Spineur on March 03, 2016, 02:37:04 AM
June Anderson in this version of Pergolesi Stabat Mater is fabulous. Just for her, you should listen to this Utube excerpt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIvO0sATcks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIvO0sATcks)
The cover of the CD is this one
[asin]B00000420A[/asin]
Thank you. It says 'video not available' here but I'll look out for the CD.
PS just bought it for under £3.00. :)
Very little love for Abbado/DG here, mostly HIP recordings have been preferred. I´d take that Abbado, however.
I have not looked back, but I might well have recommended the earlier Abbado, which is a little bit of a wallow. It has two wonderful singers, Valantini-Terrani and Margaret Marshall. The latter is especially fine and creamy, she floats the phrases. An under-remembered singer.
Mike
Abbado was my first one and it served well, introducing me to the work and becoming a benchmark in that sense.
I recently bought, not the work per se but a 14-disc Kathleen Ferrier box which included it, easily the oldest recording I've heard as it's from 1946. What makes this unusual is that some movements, including that beautiful opening one, feature a chorus instead of solo singers. A chorus of sopranos (singing in unison) and a chorus of altos (ditto). I have four or five recordings, and when I played this one and the chorus came in, I had to back up the CD to make sure I was hearing it correctly.
Wikipedia says some later composers added chorus parts, but I think this is the original version, just with the two melody lines unHIPly given to a chorus.
I have that recording, it is not one that I listen to at all often, despite Ferrier. I don't much care for the use of a choir. I have heard it live done like this but accompanied by piano. The sound from the Ferrier recording is a bit muddy.
Mike
yeah, it's by no means bad, but I'll probably never reach for it when I want to hear this work.