Discussions in D minor
Hi All,
This is another piece I've been working on in the last few months. I'm fairly happy with the music but the score is a mess and the dynamics in particular I could really use some help with, both in getting Sibelius to play it better, and in the actual musicians score. If anyone has any suggestions as to how I should go about getting a better sound, I would really welcome some tips. my music theory is not very good and all tips on glaring mistakes are really welcome too.
As always I welcome suggestions and comments, good or bad on the music too. I have to say I like it as it is, but there is always room for improvement!
Thanks in advance for listening.
Mark
https://www.dropbox.com/s/podfpbm41vqoi5a/Discussions_in_D_minor.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/io0ndaouobm76v1/Discussions%20in%20D%20minor.pdf?dl=0
link no worky
Hey, I thought this was really going to be a discussion concerning Dminor :o
I don't get the real differences between Dminor, Cminor, Bbminor, and Gminor. I don't get the meta reasons why someone love D, and another A, and then another E.
I know why wind players play in Bb and Eb.
I know why keyboardists love Eb minor, and A minor/C Major...
BUT
taking those limitations away, why does someone choose one key over another?
Hi Snyprrr,
Sorry for the double disappointment :P 1 for not being a discussion in D minor, and then that the links don't work ???
I repaired the links so they should work now if you fancy taking a listen anyway.
As for the other matter, I really think it's all down to personal taste. I know as you say that certain instruments are tuned to sound better in certain keys, and you can also find lists and lists of descriptions of the character and mood of each key, but I always think that's a very personal interpretation too. I'm sure there's science behind it, but D minor for instance is supposed to have melancholic, sad flavour, full of unfulfilled longing, but it's quite possible to write a piece in D minor, that has none of those characteristics (although it is one of my favourite keys, and I do tend to think it has those characteristics that I mentioned).
Anyway, I hope you will give my piece a listen now the links are mended.
Mark
Quote from: snyprrr on June 06, 2017, 11:13:23 AM
link no worky
Hey, I thought this was really going to be a discussion concerning Dminor :o
I don't get the real differences between Dminor, Cminor, Bbminor, and Gminor. I don't get the meta reasons why someone love D, and another A, and then another E.
I know why wind players play in Bb and Eb.
I know why keyboardists love Eb minor, and A minor/C Major...
BUT
taking those limitations away, why does someone choose one key over another?
That is probably for historical reasons. Baroque and Classical era composers each have their specific keys for expressing certain emotions - i.e. C-minor with Beethoven and D-minor and G-minor with Mozart. It also has something to do with the tuning system. In those eras on a keyboard using the well-tempered system different keys sounded differently from one another. Although if you take a modern piano and tune it to one of the well-tempered systems in Bach or Beethoven's time I would be hard-pressed to hear any difference. But musicians hear differently. In the equal-temperament system other than the difference in pitch there really is not much difference. But if you have absolute pitch (and a lot of composers and musicians do) then the difference in pitch and hence in key will matter to you.
Quote from: snyprrr on June 06, 2017, 11:13:23 AMtaking those limitations away, why does someone choose one key over another?
I have a particular and inexplicable (to me too) love of B minor. The idea of B minor, the sound of music in B minor...damned if I know why.
Schoenberg loved D minor, which is why it haunts so many of his works from the beginning of the career to the end, while both of Mahler's choral finales are in E-flat major. If a musical idea occurs to you in a particular key, you'll probably use it (unless it's impractical on the instrument/s).
The piece sounds nice, but I think it could be improved if the texture is varied a bit more. Maybe you can change the instrumentation for the second dialogue, have the upper strings play a different role. I also think the bassoon might not project as much as you imagine in a real concert situation without doubling. Also, the octave C# sounds a little weak as a climactic point at bar 41.
You should specify when one oboe or bassoon is playing as opposed to both.
I do wonder, though, why you've said that the piece is "in D minor" when it ends in E-flat major. There's nothing wrong with ending in a different key than you start in, but I question the utility of naming it in such a misleading fashion.
I have a particular and inexplicable (ok, it's probably the synaesthesia) love of C-sharp major. I'm not sure I could tell C-sharp major apart from D-flat major in a blind listening test if you gave me a piece I didn't know, but I've had a surprisingly good track record so far (sometimes I judge a D-flat major passage to be in C-sharp major because I feel like it should have been written that way and the composer only didn't because it would be too hard to read).
Why do I see sections of pieces written in G-flat major but I have never seen anything in E-flat minor? Also why is a key like G-flat major never the main key in a piece - in other words sections of a piece might be in G-flat major but never the beginning or end.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2017, 02:28:44 PM
Why do I see sections of pieces written in G-flat major but I have never seen anything in E-flat minor? Also why is a key like G-flat major never the main key in a piece - in other words sections of a piece might be in G-flat major but never the beginning or end.
Mahler wrote several things that use E-flat minor.
Symphony 6, scherzo:
Symphony 8, Part II, beginning:
Mark me down as a Gm man. Both a wave of delight and instant purchase occur when I see it...
I'm so happy everyone is enjoying the discussion in D minor, shame no one is enjoying the music that started the thread :(
Hi folks,
I didn't get a lot of response to this one, but I think possibly because it was not very well executed, also because there was an actual discussion about D minor, that wasn't really the object of my post. I've spent a couple of weeks trying to rewrite it and made quite a few changes. I really would appreciate it if you good people could let me know if you can see improvement with the rewrite.
The new links are below. Again, I'm sure there are many mistakes in the score, but a large number of them are due to making Sibelius play the piece as I would like it to sound, the players score should not look like this. But I'm sure there are also obvious mistakes like wrong sharps or flats etc., and if you spot any, then I would also appreciate you letting me know.
Thanks in advance
Mark
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4kbk9qes0613are/Discussions%20around%20D%20minor.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/grv0iq9mtbq34ol/Discussions%20around%20D%20minor.pdf?dl=0
The discussion did wander a bit, didn't it?
Hi Karl, yes it did and I didn't mind really, only no one commented on the music which was what left me a bit disheartened :'(
Forgive me for not yet commenting, myself.
Hi Karl,
No it's fine, I know that my style of writing is not to everyone's taste. I do try to not sound as if it came from bygone eras but I also know that you couldn't really call what I do "modern or contemporary" (other than in the sense that I wrote it recently). Even though I know it harks to the styles of the past, I like to think I have done it in my own voice at least.
I should clarify: forgive me for not yet having listened, and therefore not commenting! 0:)
Quote from: MarkMcD on June 24, 2017, 11:00:26 AM
Hi Karl, yes it did and I didn't mind really, only no one commented on the music which was what left me a bit disheartened :'(
I did comment above. I'm sorry if my comments got buried in the ensuing discussion (and if they were actually buried in my post, which made them less prominent than they should have been).
Hi Mahlerian,
I do apologise, you did indeed comment and I think I might have missed it or I would have been sure to reply sooner.
I think I have addresses some of the issues you pointed out in the re-write, I'm much more pleased with the results than before and this is due to you good folks pointing out it's weaknesses and I do appreciate it.
As for the title, I wanted to call it something other than usual "nocturne, prelude, study ect.," since it's not really any of those, and I liked the discussion element of the piece, but you're right, it only stays in D minor for a short time, travelling through a few others before ending in E flat major, so perhaps I will also retitle it.
Thanks again for your observations, they are always appreciated.
Mark
Karl, you are forgiven :D
Although, if you could find time, I really would appreciate your observations. I'm not looking for praise, so please don't think you have to say it's wonderful when really it's a bunch of c..p lol. I want to learn and improve wherever possible, and constructive criticism is what I need most.
Mark
Greetings Mark McD!
I have not had a great deal of time to peruse your score. However, here is a quick comment simply on the notation, and specifically the bassoon: while it is not impossible for a bassoonist to understand a treble clef ;) , you should re-notate the treble clef sections with a tenor clef: that will prevent those ledger lines below the treble clef and make life easier for your player.
One or two more quick comments: the string accompaniment becomes monotonous in the opening, and I think the dialogue between the oboe and bassoon, while it begins well, becomes quickly predictable. While the bassoon is not imitating the notes of the oboe, the rhythmic pattern is - for my ear - too often identical. In other words, give the bassoon something melodically distinct from the oboe, which will give you more of a "real" dialogue, and open up many more contrapuntal possibilities.
I am very impressed with your contrapuntal abilities!
Hi Mark. I haven't seen your score but based upon listening I can make two compositional suggestions you can take or leave. First of all, your composition builds nicely and the use of countermelody midway through is effective.
Your ostinato pattern of DADF, DBbDF, DBDF and back has a semitone movement (A Bb Bnat Bb A) in only one voice of the pattern. The DDF notes of the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th note of your pattern remain static. This can get too predictable and repetitious but there's an easy solution: change another note in a different voice. For example, start with your DADF, the go to D,Bb,D,E....then DABF as you have, then DBbDE again. That way, you've got the inner line of ABbBA already in use PLUS an FEFE in the highest voice which is more interesting and less James Bondian.
Often the theme has notes landing right on strong beats. This renders the chord changes less interesting and harder to hear. Again, an easy fix. Just use some slight syncopation to give the melody greater independence. Use rests and ties to throw the melodic accent off of the first and third beat in 4/4 or the 1st and 7th in 12/8. Just trust your sense of melodic invention. I often loosen the rhythms while revising to add interest and fun for the players/listeners.
It sound like you've worked out some of the orchestration kinks and diversified the texture. Good... 8)
Hi Rons talking,
Thanks a lot, those suggestions are really helpful because I was a little concerned about over predictability of the ostinato and your reworks sound really interesting so I will definitely have a look and see what I can do.
Also I like your suggestion to loosen the melodic lines a bit so I will take a look at that too.
I very rarely think of my work as completely finished, I often look back even years later and see what I could improve. I am hampered quite a bit by my lack of technical knowledge, I only took music theory to grade 3, and trying to wade through very dry theory books is such a hard slog, so I tend to work very much by ear, which works fine a lot of the time, but do find myself being lost in some aspects of orchestration and have to use a lot of trial and error.
So I am always very grateful when people offer comments like yours and I thank you very much for them.
Mark
Thanks also to Cato,
I'm afraid the score is quite a mess, maybe not worth your time to look too closely LOL, but thank you for your suggestions. I am always looking for ways to improve what I have so I will look at the rhythmic aspect of the bassoon as well as the clef.
Mark