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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 07:05:20 AM

Title: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 07:05:20 AM
After 15 years of listening to classical music, I've finally settled down to a favorite era. I have a lot of Baroque music that I truly enjoy, and even more Romantic Era music. I even have and listen to quite a lot of 20th century music (21st? Well, maybe a little bit). But the music that I enjoy most, and which constitutes by far the largest section of my collection, is Classical Era music.

My personal definition of the Classical Era is a rather broad one. It constitutes a period from roughly 1740 to roughly 1830. Of course, this period is dominated by the so-called "Viennese High Classical" school, whose main exponents were Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and and perhaps a few others who were ambitious enough to attempt to emulate them, sometimes successfully. But there are a true multitude of other composers who were working at this time, and producing a lot of worthwhile music too. I don't want to exclude them. And I don't want to get hung up on chronological complexities either, since there were many composers who were producing Baroque music well into the 1760's, and there were many who were producing what we now think of as Romantic music as early as the late 1790's. The Classical Era is merely a convenience for historians, it was not a cut and dried period of time in which it's constituent members were knowingly producing (or NOT producing) "Classical" music. :)

So, I invite you to join me in a regular discussion of the music of this time. I am not looking for recommended recordings, unless (as is often the case) there are only one or two recordings available and you want to point one out. We have plenty of threads to discuss the "Best Beethoven Symphony Cycle"... ::)  But if you are familiar with good books or articles on the subject, for example, they would be a welcome adjunct to the music itself.

Thanks for joining in. I hope we can all learn something here, and even make a few converts among the many who feel that Classical music is not for them.

Cheers,
Gurn 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 08:26:27 AM
The Classical Era: Where did it come from?

One has only to listen to music composed in 1725 and in 1775 to hear that there was a great change in music in that 50 year period. 

Classical music is less complicated and has a less dense texture. It is mainly homophonic – melody above chordal accompaniment. The emphasis is on grace and beauty of melody and form, proportion and balance. Elegance of character and perfect balance are the main characteristics. The hallmark style of the Classical Era was the sonata. Sonata form developed rather rapidly, but even by the end of the period it was never formally defined. Carl Czerny, (a pupil of Beethoven) was the first to put the tags we use today, exposition, development and recapitulation into a definition, and that was circa 1839, long after all the classicists were dead and gone.

The Early (or Pre-) Classical is often called the rococo or galant style. It was far more radically different from its immediate predecessors than later classical music was. Polyphony was strictly avoided, for example, while Haydn and later Mozart incorporated fugue and other polyphonic devices into their music. There was also a greater avoidance of structure earlier on, with composers such as CPE Bach specializing in free fantasias and in Italy, capriccios. This too would change, with the discovery that music was more pleasing to people when it had structure for them to guide their listening by.

More soon. Feel free to add or emend. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 22, 2009, 08:33:02 AM
What are some good books on the subject, Gurn?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on February 22, 2009, 08:33:02 AM
What are some good books on the subject, Gurn?

Well, there are 2 camps on the book subject. One is for musicians. The best one that I've found if you know music theory is "The Classical Style" by Charles Rosen. Even though I don't know much theory, I learned a lot from this book because Rosen is such a good writer and includes enough historical details that you can't help but learn a lot.

The second group is for mainly history buffs. A good choice to start with here is "The Age of Beethoven and Mozart" by Pestelli. This is a very good book, provides a lot of context and is quite readable. And there are no full pages of music scores ending in statements like "so it is obvious that Beethoven was influenced by Mozart's String Quartet in A major..." ::)  ;D

If you like biographies, I can heartily recommend "Mozart: A Cultural Biography" by Robert Gutman. Not only a good bio of Mozart, but a great overview of everything else that was going on in Europe at the time, both politically and in the arts.

Finally, "The Sonata in the Classic Era" by William S. Newman. You will be surprised that you don't have to be a musician to appreciate his arguments. And it covers every composer that you've heard of, and many that you haven't, along with comprehensive lists of their works. This book was a great find for me. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on February 22, 2009, 08:48:49 AM
Hi Gurn, nice idea for a thread!  :)

I was given this book for my birthday last summer, and I think it's a pretty good book for relative newcomers to classical era music (but specifically on Mozart).

What to Listen For in Mozart - by Robert Harris
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 22, 2009, 08:50:04 AM
Nice timing, Gurn. :) Right now, I'm reading this (http://www.naxos.com/naxosbooks/naxosbooks_classical.asp), so this thread and the book should complement each other. The chapters of the book are rather short, but I, a neophyte listener, find the text neither dry nor complex. I'm sure it'll be valuable to beginners.

I think it was M Forever who recommended The Classical Style (http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Style-Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven/dp/0393317129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235324811&sr=8-1)*; but if I remember the reviews correctly, it probably would not be useful to me right now.



*Obviously, you posted while I was still typing. But to make my point clear, it was due to M that I came across this book. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on February 22, 2009, 08:50:58 AM
One book that I found rather dry was Mozart, A Life by Maynard Solomon.  Took me a long time to get through that one.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 22, 2009, 08:52:54 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 08:48:49 AM
What to Listen For in Mozart

Ha! That title reminds of the popular science books which go like A Brief History of <insert favourite "sexy physics topic">. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 08:54:28 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 08:48:49 AM
Hi Gurn, nice idea for a thread!  :)

I was given this book for my birthday last summer, and I think it's a pretty good book for relative newcomers to classical era music (but specifically on Mozart).

What to Listen For in Mozart - by Robert Harris

Thanks, Ray. Hope you will feel free to contribute. And I have been looking at that book for a while too. Please let us know what you learned from it. There is so much to listen for in Mozart! :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 08:58:17 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 22, 2009, 08:50:04 AM
Nice timing, Gurn. :) Right now, I'm reading this (http://www.naxos.com/naxosbooks/naxosbooks_classical.asp), so this thread and the book should complement each other. The chapters of the book are rather short, but I, a neophyte listener, find the text neither dry nor complex. I'm sure it'll be valuable to beginners.

I think it was M Forever who recommended The Classical Style (http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Style-Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven/dp/0393317129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235324811&sr=8-1); but if I remember the reviews correctly, it probably would not be useful to me right now.

That looks like a most useful book. And I see that it is tied in with a website so you can listen to the music you are reading about. That can be a big help when you are exploring. :)

Yes, M was a musician, and I am very sure that all those musical examples made perfect sense to him. But for those of us who limp along with a score trying to get an overview, or don't even use one at all, the bulk of it would make no sense. Which doesn't detract from the book at all for those who CAN use it. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on February 22, 2009, 09:01:41 AM
Gurn, I'm hoping there will be discussions on here too about other Classical Era composers in addition to "The Big Three".  More than any other era, I find that the focus in the Classical Era is so narrowly centred around Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:05:29 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 09:01:41 AM
Gurn, I'm hoping there will be discussions on here too about other Classical Era composers in addition to "The Big Three".  More than any other era, I find that the focus in the Classical Era is so narrowly centred around Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.

Absolutely! If someone else doesn't start it, you can bet that I will. I have lots of Boccherini, Vanhal, Stamitz, Salieri, etc. etc. etc. and I enjoy them greatly. I also would like to see discussions about non-German composers. Music wasn't standing still outside of Vienna. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on February 22, 2009, 09:09:52 AM
I have gradually become a very big fan of Carl Stamitz; his "orchestral quartets" are marvelous works, much like energetic string-only serenades, and the cello concerti are meltingly beautiful. The whole Stamitz family was part of the "Mannheim" club that formed one of the other very big musical schools of the 18th century, one which I'm keen to learn more about.

My compliments to you, Gurn, for starting this excellent thread. I am not a big classical-era listener myself, but will be watching with avid interest. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on February 22, 2009, 09:12:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:05:29 AM
Boccherini

Now there is someone I definitely need more of in my collection!  And the French/English composer, George Onslow.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:14:23 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 22, 2009, 09:09:52 AM
I have gradually become a very big fan of Carl Stamitz; his "orchestral quartets" are marvelous works, much like energetic string-only serenades, and the cello concerti are meltingly beautiful. The whole Stamitz family was part of the "Mannheim" club that formed one of the other very big musical schools of the 18th century, one which I'm keen to learn more about.

My compliments to you, Gurn, for starting this excellent thread. I am not a big classical-era listener myself, but will be watching with avid interest. :)

Brian,
Yes, Carl Stamitz is definitely one of my favorites, and one of those now-unheralded names that was really a big fish in his own time. If you run across any of his concerti (for violin, viola, viola da gamba etc.) you really must give it a try. And his symphonies are nice too. And as you pointed out, his father, Johann, was a very large figure in orchestral history, organizing and running the Mannheim Orchestra that was a huge influence of all music to follow. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:21:10 AM
Here is a list (stolen from Wiki and edited) of some "Middle Period" classical composers. I would hope to discuss many of these, as there are a few that I've never heard music from, and maybe someone here has done. I will shortly post a list of later composers (born after 1750) who are also a major part of the scene. :)

Middle Classical era composers (born 1730-1750)

    * Christian Cannabich (1731 - 1798)
    * Joseph Haydn (1732 - 1809)
    * François-Joseph Gossec (1734 - 1829)
    * Johann Gottfried Eckard (1735 - 1809)[3]
    * Johann Christian Bach (1735 - 1782)
    * Johann Georg Albrechtsberger (1736 - 1809)
    * Michael Haydn (1737 - 1806)
    * Josef Mysliveček (1737 - 1781)
    * William Herschel (1738 - 1822)
    * Leopold Hofmann (1738 - 1793)
    * Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf (1739 - 1799)
    * Johann Baptist Vanhal (1739 - 1813)
    * André Ernest Modeste Grétry (1741 - 1813)
    * Andrea Luchesi (1741 - 1801)
    * Giovanni Paisiello (1741 - 1816)
    * Václav Pichl (1741 - 1804)
    * Luigi Boccherini (1743 - 1805)
    * Franz Nikolaus Novotny (1743 - 1773)
    * Carl Stamitz (1745 - 1801)
    * Maddalena Laura Sirmen (1745–1818)
    * Joseph Bologne, the Chevalier de Saint-Georges (1745 - 1799)
    * Leopold Kozeluch (1747 - 1818)
    * Johann Nikolaus Forkel (1749-1818)
    * Domenico Cimarosa (1749-1801)
    * Jean-Frédéric Edelmann (1749-1794)
    * Maria Barthélemon (c. 1749–1799)
    * Antonín Kraft (c. 1749-1820)
   

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 09:12:23 AM
Now there is someone I definitely need more of in my collection!  And the French/English composer, George Onslow.

Yes, and yes. Even though Onslow is transitional into the Romantic, he is heavily influenced by Classical style. A good example of how one can't strictly use chronology to define style. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:28:12 AM
And here are some later composers. Probably more familiar names here. :)

Late Classical era composers (born 1750-1770)

    * Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825)
    * Antonio Rosetti (c1750 - 1792)
    * Muzio Clementi (1752 - 1832)
    * Leopold Kozeluch (1752 - 1818)
    * Vicente Martín y Soler (1754 - 1806)
    * Vincenzo Righini (1756 - 1812)
    * Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756 - 1791)
    * Joseph Martin Kraus (1756 - 1792)
    * Paul Wranitzky (1756 - 1808)
    * Daniel Gottlob Türk (1756-1813)
    * Ignaz Pleyel (1757 - 1831)
    * François Devienne (1759 - 1803)[5]
    * Franz Vinzenz Krommer (1759 - 1831)
    * Luigi Cherubini (1760 - 1842)
    * Johann Ladislaus Dussek (1760 - 1812)
    * Franz Danzi (1763 - 1826)
    * Adalbert Gyrowetz (1763 - 1850)
    * Étienne Méhul (1763-1817)
    * Franz Xaver Süssmayr (1766 - 1803)
    * Samuel Wesley (1766 - 1837)
    * Wenzel Muller (1767 - 1835)
    * Carlos Baguer (1768 - 1808)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on February 22, 2009, 09:29:19 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:21:10 AM
    * Giovanni Paisiello (1741 - 1816)
   

One of my first discoveries, was Paisiello, when I bought the soundtrack to Kubrick's Barry Lyndon.  It was an excerpt from his Barber of Seville opera (not Rossini's  ;) Kubrick Film soundtracks were my transition into classical music, and opened up that new world of intrigue to me!  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 22, 2009, 09:35:24 AM
Regarding the Mannheim style, I found an interesting quote from Mozart taken from a letter to his father. (I quote it from the first book I mentioned in my first post.)

You cannot imagine the glorious effect of a symphony with flutes, oboes and clarinets.

At a time when we take the things for granted, it's amazing to know that there was a period (when Mozart was still alive) when this was all new and revolutionary. I can't imagine listening to the late works of Mozart without some of these wonderful woodwinds.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 22, 2009, 09:36:47 AM
Congratulations, Gurn, for a very interesting new topic!

Just because I am an opera fan and - I love Stockhausen! - doesn't exclude me from responding. In my opera collection is Pierre le Grand by André Ernest Modeste Grétry, an opera about Peter the Great I enjoy very much.


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on February 22, 2009, 09:39:21 AM
In very curious to know, since I really enjoy Russian music, if there were any good Russian composers in the classical era (pre-Glinka)?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Coopmv on February 22, 2009, 09:41:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 07:05:20 AM
After 15 years of listening to classical music, I've finally settled down to a favorite era. I have a lot of Baroque music that I truly enjoy

Baroque is my favorite period as well and I have thousands of LP's and CD's covering this era.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:56:32 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 09:29:19 AM
One of my first discoveries, was Paisiello, when I bought the soundtrack to Kubrick's Barry Lyndon.  It was an excerpt from his Barber of Seville opera (not Rossini's  ;) Kubrick Film soundtracks were my transition into classical music, and opened up that new world of intrigue to me!  0:)

Well, I know you are a chamber fan (like me!) but you would likely be interested in Paisiello's piano concerti. The #4 in g minor is particularly good (you can find it on a Naxos disk). Not all of the opera composers were good at purley instrumental music, but he was one who was. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:07:29 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 22, 2009, 09:35:24 AM
Regarding the Mannheim style, I found an interesting quote from Mozart taken from a letter to his father. (I quote it from the first book I mentioned in my first post.)

You cannot imagine the glorious effect of a symphony with flutes, oboes and clarinets.

At a time when we take the things for granted, it's amazing to know that there was a period (when Mozart was still alive) when this was all new and revolutionary. I can't imagine listening to the late works of Mozart without some of these wonderful woodwinds.

Yes, Mozart was bowled over by the Mannheim band. It started a whole new line of thinking for him. Their particular idiom involved some novel ideas, like actually playing together... :)  But it's true, before them, an orchestra was primarily the string section that we would call it today. When Mozart returned from Paris, he lobbied the Archbishop long and hard for clarinets for the orchestra in Salzburg, but to no avail. He had to remove the clarinet parts from the Paris symphony, for example, and he (probably) never bothered to rewrite the Sinfonia Concertante for Winds to include a different solo part from the clarinet that it was written for in Paris. But he did continue to use some Mannheim standard devices, like the "Mannheim Rocket" which the French called the premiére coup d'archet. It shows up in several of his later works, and still pleases today. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:09:05 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 09:39:21 AM
In very curious to know, since I really enjoy Russian music, if there were any good Russian composers in the classical era (pre-Glinka)?

I don't know of any, but that means nothing. Russia imported their musicians from Italy, primarily. Paisiello and Cimarosa were two that spent time working for the Czar before lighting in Vienna. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:15:07 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 22, 2009, 09:36:47 AM
Congratulations, Gurn, for a very interesting new topic!

Just because I am an opera fan and - I love Stockhausen! - doesn't exclude me from responding. In my opera collection is Pierre le Grand by André Ernest Modeste Grétry, an opera about Peter the Great I enjoy very much.




Thank you, Brünnhilde. I hope you will grace us with some more interesting information, since many of these composers were (or really wanted to be) opera composers too. My only knowledge of Gretry, for example, is that Mozart wrote 8 Variations in F (K 352/374c) on a theme from his "Les Mariages Samnites". Lots to learn. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 22, 2009, 10:16:01 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:07:29 AM
[Mozart] (probably) never bothered to rewrite the Sinfonia Concertante for Winds to include a different solo part from the clarinet that it was written for in Paris.

I thought that work had the 'spurious' tag attached to it. So, has it been decided (proved?) that it's Mozart's?

QuoteBut he did continue to use some Mannheim standard devices, like the "Mannheim Rocket" which the French called the premiére coup d'archet. It shows up in several of his later works, and still pleases today. :)8)

Yep. The only example I know of is from the third movement of K. 466. (And the other, non-Mozartian example is the opening of Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 2.) I'd appreciate it if you can provide some other examples (Mozartian or otherwise). Thanks.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:25:45 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 22, 2009, 10:16:01 AM
I thought that work had the 'spurious' tag attached to it. So, has it been decided (proved?) that it's Mozart's?

Oh, there's little doubt that Mozart wrote an original SC when he was in Paris. According to the latest Köchel "Composed probably between Apr 5 and 20, 1778 in Paris; Mozart wrote Sinfonia concertante for Fl, Ob, Hn Bn for LeGros; never performed, and LeGros kept autograph.". The version that we hear today is for Clarinet, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon, and that is the one that (at least parts of) are spurious. And one of the main arguments against it is that he wouldn't have rewritten it for a clarinet in Salzburg, since there weren't any clarinet players there... My personal opinion is that the full truth of the matter will never be known. :-\

QuoteYep. The only example I know of is from the third movement of K. 466. (And the other, non-Mozartian example is the opening of Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 2.) I'd appreciate it if you can provide some other examples (Mozartian or otherwise). Thanks.

I can, with a little research to refresh my memory. I'm bad that way, and age hasn't helped. :) More later...

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Anne on February 22, 2009, 10:29:07 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 08:48:49 AM
Hi Gurn, nice idea for a thread!  :)

I was given this book for my birthday last summer, and I think it's a pretty good book for relative newcomers to classical era music (but specifically on Mozart).

What to Listen For in Mozart - by Robert Harris
KammerNuss,

Thanks for sharing the name of that book.  It is EXACTLY the kind of book I always hope to find for each composer.  If you or anyone else know of any other books of this type, would you kindly share their titles?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 22, 2009, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:25:45 AM
Oh, there's little doubt that Mozart wrote an original SC when he was in Paris. According to the latest Köchel "Composed probably between Apr 5 and 20, 1778 in Paris; Mozart wrote Sinfonia concertante for Fl, Ob, Hn Bn for LeGros; never performed, and LeGros kept autograph.". The version that we hear today is for Clarinet, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon, and that is the one that (at least parts of) are spurious. And one of the main arguments against it is that he wouldn't have rewritten it for a clarinet in Salzburg, since there weren't any clarinet players there... My personal opinion is that the full truth of the matter will never be known. :-\

I can, with a little research to refresh my memory. I'm bad that way, and age hasn't helped. :) More later...

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Not a problem, I can wait. :) And thanks for the clarification on the SC.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Herman on February 22, 2009, 10:45:29 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 22, 2009, 09:35:24 AM
At a time when we take the things for granted, it's amazing to know that there was a period (when Mozart was still alive) when this was all new and revolutionary. I can't imagine listening to the late works of Mozart without some of these wonderful woodwinds.

The flutes and oboes are always there AFAIK, but the concertos and symphonies with clarinets form a special subgroup in Mozarts later works.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:53:56 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 22, 2009, 10:29:26 AM
Not a problem, I can wait. :) And thanks for the clarification on the SC.

Here are 2 quick ones: The opening of the 4th movement of the g minor symphony (K 550) and the beginning of the orchestral exposition in the 3rd movement of the sinfonia concertante for violin & viola. In that one, it is not right at beginning of the movement, but occurs when the orchestra enters tutti after the viola and flute parts. Also when that section is reprised. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:56:48 AM
Quote from: Herman on February 22, 2009, 10:45:29 AM
The flutes and oboes are always there AFAIK, but the concertos and symphonies with clarinets form a special subgroup in Mozarts later works.

Yes, Mozart always used 2 flutes and/or 2 oboes in his earlier orchestral works. Also horns and bassoons. That's about it though. Note that he had 2 versions of several of his later symphonies, one with clarinets and one without. The Hogwood set has both versions. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 22, 2009, 10:58:21 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:53:56 AM
Here are 2 quick ones: The opening of the 4th movement of the g minor symphony (K 550) and the beginning of the orchestral exposition in the 3rd movement of the sinfonia concertante for violin & viola. In that one, it is not right at beginning of the movement, but occurs when the orchestra enters tutti after the viola and flute parts. Also when that section is reprised. :)

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Thanks! I'm including the SC in playlist for tomorrow.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:56:48 AM
Yes, Mozart always used 2 flutes and/or 2 oboes in his earlier orchestral works. Also horns and bassoons. That's about it though. Note that he had 2 versions of several of his later symphonies, one with clarinets and one without. The Hogwood set has both versions. :)

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Ah, so that's why that set is so big! Also, I remember a radio announcer saying that the autograph(?) of one of the versions of the 40th (with or without clarinet, I don't remember) was owned by Brahms for sometime.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 11:01:09 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 22, 2009, 10:58:21 AM
Thanks! I'm including the SC in playlist for tomorrow.

Ah, tomorrow's gonna be a good day, I can tell already :D

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 11:03:17 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 22, 2009, 10:58:21 AM
Thanks! I'm including the SC in playlist for tomorrow.

Ah, so that's why that set is so big! Also, I remember a radio announcer saying that the autograph(?) of one of the versions of the 40th (with or without clarinet, I don't remember) was owned by Brahms for sometime.

I know that Brahms owned several Mozart autographs, I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of them. Brahms was an exceptional connoisseur of music as well as a great composer. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Herman on February 22, 2009, 11:12:54 AM
Brahms owned the autograph of the g minor symphony for a while, indeed.

Brahms was very well to do towards the end of his life.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Drasko on February 22, 2009, 11:15:03 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:09:05 AM
I don't know of any, but that means nothing. Russia imported their musicians from Italy, primarily. Paisiello and Cimarosa were two that spent time working for the Czar before lighting in Vienna. :)

8)

http://www.vor.ru/English/1000years/1000y-030.html

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8833

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPv8mh65Ay4

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=293

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=177282
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2009, 11:19:24 AM
Cool thread, Gurn -- speaking from the 21st century though I does  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 11:21:36 AM
Quote from: Drasko on February 22, 2009, 11:15:03 AM

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=177282

On this disk, all but Maxim Berezovsky are imports. Italian, French and German (Steibelt may have been a Brit, can't remember). However, a couple of years ago, someone (it may have been you, Drasko) posted about a Russian violinist whose career spanned the 1800 range who was a composer of some excellent concertos. He certainly preceded Glinka.  Damned if I can remember his name though... If anyone does, please post it. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 11:23:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2009, 11:19:24 AM
Cool thread, Gurn -- speaking from the 21st century though I does  8)

Thanks, Karl, you were the 21st century exception I mentioned. :)  maybe that will make you give us a post here and there, like on early Russians, maybe?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: hildegard on February 22, 2009, 12:18:56 PM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 09:29:19 AM
One of my first discoveries, was Paisiello, when I bought the soundtrack to Kubrick's Barry Lyndon.  It was an excerpt from his Barber of Seville opera (not Rossini's  ;) Kubrick Film soundtracks were my transition into classical music, and opened up that new world of intrigue to me!  0:)

My discovery of Paisiello also has been through his vocal compositions, such as the beautiful aria, "Il Mio Ben," from his opera Nina Pazza per Amore. Like Rossini, though, Paisiello is also known for an opera that preceded him, La Serva Padrone, which was originally set to music by Pergolesi (1710-1736). While some may consider Paisiello and Pergolesi to be a generation apart, there is more similarity than difference in the originality and fancifulness of their music. The vocal compositions of both also equally form part of the classical and classic repertoire of today's students and followers of bel canto.   
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 01:29:11 PM
History part 2: 1750-1775

This was the period of development of the style which led to the High Classical. Galant had lost its charm for many people who wanted to be challenged by the music. And on the practical side, enough experimentation had been done to allow composers to know what was possible with the orchestra. And what was possible were dynamic contrasts, an import from Italian opera (Jomelli, Mannheim, circa 1755), and a solid blending of strings and winds, something that was lacking in earlier orchestral music which tended towards one or the other.

The main player in this period was Joseph Haydn. He assimilated the great amount of information to which he was exposed during his training period in Vienna and, during the late 1750's through 1760's, while employed away from Vienna, and with an orchestra of considerable talent and with an accommodating employer, he turned out a full spectrum of orchestral, sacred and chamber music which greatly furthered the growth of sonata form, instrumentation and explorations of tonal relationships.

By the 1770's, there were many good composers who took the ideas of Haydn, CPE Bach, Johann Stamitz and others and blended them with their own original ideas to make sonata-allegro form, key contrasts, wide dynamic range, etc. the standard musical form. Now the time was come to take these seminal ideas and build the musical works that we have come to think of as "Classical Music". :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on February 22, 2009, 01:47:14 PM
Doing my daily GMG check imagine my surprise when I see a new thread from my old pal Gurn Blanston.  Imagine also my surprise to learn that it's shot up to three pages in a day!  :o

Great reading, Gurn!  I'll make sure to drop by here often.  ;)

Er... That is all!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sul G on February 22, 2009, 01:51:35 PM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 22, 2009, 09:39:21 AM
In very curious to know, since I really enjoy Russian music, if there were any good Russian composers in the classical era (pre-Glinka)?

This disc is surprising and wonderful

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YuajtnKiL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

and there are other Khandoshkin discs out there which I haven't heard. This is solo violin music, fiery virtuoso stuff, but with plenty of poetry and arresting ideas too. Somehow you can tell that this is music from the edge of things, and that's not a bad thing. Definitely worth a punt - and it fills a gap which I didn't think could be filled. Khandoshkin's wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Khandoshkin)

Nice thread, Gurn. And your list of books is spot on. It should be pointed out that Rosen's The Classical Style is officially The Best Book On Music Ever.  >:( $:) I've never read anything as consistently revealing...unless it be Rosen's The Romantic Generation. The guy is incredible.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sul G on February 22, 2009, 02:03:53 PM
Here's one I hadn't heard of - Yevstigney Fomin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevstigney_Fomin). There's the vocal score of an opera of his at IMSLP - I have it downloading now!

There's also Bortniansky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Bortniansky), a name I'm very familiar with but whose music I don't recall hearing. Wiki says:

QuoteWhile Dmytro Bortniansky's operas and instrumental compositions are on par with those of the great classical composers, it is his sacred choral work that is performed most often today. This vast body of work remains central not only to understanding 18th century Russian sacred music, but also served as inspiration to his fellow Ukrainian composers in the 19th century.

which is pretty much how I understood things to be, give or take a slightly different interpretation of the words 'on a par with'; I've always associated him with liturgical music in the Russian style, in the line that led through Tchaikovsky to Rachmaninov and even Schnittke. But what do I know - nothing when it comes to this.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sul G on February 22, 2009, 02:09:08 PM
Quote from: sul G on February 22, 2009, 02:03:53 PM
Here's one I hadn't heard of - Yevstigney Fomin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevstigney_Fomin). There's the vocal score of an opera of his at IMSLP - I have it downloading now!

Here we are - the opening bars of a classical period opera from Russia called 'The Americans'! Who'd a thunk it?  8) :D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sul G on February 22, 2009, 02:17:02 PM
Hey, I assume you can even hear the above here (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=34774&genreid=) (click on 'album preview' - hope it works!). Track 4 is this overture, and there's some other Fomin, and Bortniansky, on the disc too.

Edit - it does work, you can listen to the whole CD...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 02:38:31 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on February 22, 2009, 01:47:14 PM
Doing my daily GMG check imagine my surprise when I see a new thread from my old pal Gurn Blanston.  Imagine also my surprise to learn that it's shot up to three pages in a day!  :o

Great reading, Gurn!  I'll make sure to drop by here often.  ;)

Er... That is all!  ;D

Welcome, Sorin. Hope you will share some of your knowledge with us. This will be a community effort and we will all benefit. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 02:40:14 PM
Quote from: sul G on February 22, 2009, 01:51:35 PM
This disc is surprising and wonderful

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YuajtnKiL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

and there are other Khandoshkin discs out there which I haven't heard. This is solo violin music, fiery virtuoso stuff, but with plenty of poetry and arresting ideas too. Somehow you can tell that this is music from the edge of things, and that's not a bad thing. Definitely worth a punt - and it fills a gap which I didn't think could be filled. Khandoshkin's wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Khandoshkin)

Nice thread, Gurn. And your list of books is spot on. It should be pointed out that Rosen's The Classical Style is officially The Best Book On Music Ever.  >:( $:) I've never read anything as consistently revealing...unless it be Rosen's The Romantic Generation. The guy is incredible.

Luke,
Ah, it was you who rec'd that disk a while back. Glad you caught up with us and reminded. I read a bit else about this composer and had decided I really wanted to try him out, but... I forgot his name...  :-[

Oh, I hope that at least a few people will grab some of those books. I got them all "used" on Amazon for a pittance and they have provided many hours of enjoyment along with some serious edification, which I am always greatly in need of. :)



8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 22, 2009, 03:06:07 PM
Hi Gurn - just coming in for the evening and noticed your already 3-page thread!  :o

As you likely know, this is my favorite period of music and really love the transitional years, so will be quite interested in joing in on the conversation and hopefully contributing some useful information -  :)

Just for a starter consideration, this period saw a tremendous development of various instruments, such as the keyboards (e.g. harpsichords into the fortepianos) and woodwinds (such as flutes & clarinets); thus, this discussion will need to include preferences for performances of works on these various types of instruments.

Just today, I was listening to the 6-CD set of Ronald Brautigam performing the Mozart Piano Sonatas on a wonderful instrument (built by Paul McNulty in 1992 after one by Anton Walter, ca. 1795) - the sound and 'up front' presence of this piano is just superb.

So, I would encourage those participating in this thread to consider the changes that were occurring w/ the instruments of these times - great start, buddy!  Dave  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41H06V5MBXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 22, 2009, 03:06:07 PM
Hi Gurn - just coming in for the evening and noticed your already 3-page thread!  :o

As you likely know, this is my favorite period of music and really love the transitional years, so will be quite interested in joing in on the conversation and hopefully contributing some useful information -  :)

Just for a starter consideration, this period saw a tremendous development of various instruments, such as the keyboards (e.g. harpsichords into the fortepianos) and woodwinds (such as flutes & clarinets); thus, this discussion will need to include preferences for performances of works on these various types of instruments.

Just today, I was listening to the 6-CD set of Ronald Brautigam performing the Mozart Piano Sonatas on a wonderful instrument (built by Paul McNulty in 1992 after one by Anton Walter, ca. 1795) - the sound and 'up front' presence of this piano is just superb.

So, I would encourage those participating in this thread to consider the changes that were occurring w/ the instruments of these times - great start, buddy!  Dave  :D


Ah, welcome Dave. I was sure you would show up, and soon. :D

I really enjoy that suite of Mozart sonatas by Brautigam, and that does give a good lead-in to the subject you raise. Indeed, it is on my agenda too. I started a paragraph about it in one of the history sections and then erased it, thinking I might be adding too much at once. Clearly not, though. I have run across some good instrument histories since the last time the subject came up, and I hope to be able to post some of that material here. beyond the keyboard, the changes in, particularly, wind instruments went a long way towards making them usable. Which is to say: they actually stayed in tune through an entire work (or at least a movement). Anyway, an excellent subject for exploration. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:05:58 PM
On the old forum, SonicMan and I started many threads on Classical Era composers. Some of these became very popular, a few didn't. In any case, the initial posts nearly always contained a brief biography and perhaps a few music recommendations to be getting on with. Rather than restart those threads, I thought to go back and copy and paste that original post so that the composers will be discussed in their context with each other. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:07:19 PM
Here's the first then, since he was mentioned earlier.

Luigi Boccherini (February 19, 1743 – May 28, 1805) was a classical era composer and cellist from Italy, mostly known for one particular minuet from one of his string quintets, and the Cello Concerto in B flat major (G 482). This last work was long known in the heavily altered version by German cellist and prolific arranger Friedrich Grützmacher, but has recently been restored to its original version.

Boccherini was born in Lucca, Italy, in a musical family. At a young age his father, a cellist and double bass player, sent Luigi to study in Rome (1757), and after various concert tours, his talents eventually brought him to the Spanish court in Madrid, where he was employed by Don Luis, the younger brother of King Charles III. There he flourished under royal patronage, until one day when the King expressed his disapproval at a passage in a new trio, and ordered Boccherini to change it. The composer, no doubt irritated with this intrusion into his art, doubled the passage instead, leading to his immediate dismissal.

Among his patrons was the French consul Lucien Bonaparte, as well as King Friedrich Wilhelm II of Prussia, himself an amateur cellist, flutist, and avid supporter of the arts. Boccherini fell on hard times following the deaths of his Spanish patron, two wives, and two daughters, and he died in poverty in 1805, being survived by two sons. His blood line continues to this day.

Boccherini is sometimes referred to as the 'wife of Haydn', because much of his chamber music closely resembles the Austrian master's. However, Boccherini is often credited with improving Haydn's model of the string quartet by bringing the cello to prominence, whereas Haydn had always relegated it to an accompaniment role.

A virtuoso cellist of the first caliber, Boccherini often played violin repertoire on the cello, at pitch, a skill he developed by substituting for ailing violonists while touring. This supreme command of the instrument brought him much praise from his contemporaries (notably Baillot, Rode, and Romberg), and is evident in the cello parts of his compositions (particularly in the quintets for two cellos, treated oftentimes as cello concertos with string quartet accompaniment).

He wrote a large amount of chamber music, including over a hundred string quintets for two violins, viola and two cellos (a type which he pioneered, in contrast with the then common scoring for two violins, two violas and one cello), nearly a hundred string quartets, and a number of string trios and sonatas (including at least 19 for the cello), as well as a series of guitar quintets. His orchestral music includes around 30 symphonies and 12 virtuoso cello concertos.

Boccherini's works have been catalogued by the French musicologist Yves Gérard (born 1932), published in London (1969), hence the 'G' numbers for his output.

Boccherini's style is characterized by the typical Rococo charm, lightness, and optimism, and exhibits much melodic and rhythmic invention, coupled with frequent influences from the guitar tradition of his adopted country, Spain. Unjustly neglected, his works have been gaining more recognition lately, in print, record, and concert hall.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2009, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:05:58 PM
On the old forum, SonicMan and I started many threads on Classical Era composers. Some of these became very popular, a few didn't. In any case, the initial posts nearly always contained a brief biography and perhaps a few music recommendations to be getting on with. Rather than restart those threads, I thought to go back and copy and paste that original post so that the composers will be discussed in their context with each other. :)

8)

Most excellent!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 22, 2009, 04:16:42 PM
Quote from: sul G on February 22, 2009, 02:17:02 PM

Edit - it does work, you can listen to the whole CD...

Lovely music indeed and great recording sound. I am still listening to it, track 11 very lively! Thank you sincerely!  :-*
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sul G on February 22, 2009, 04:19:09 PM
Thanks for that, Gurn. The following:

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:07:19 PM
Boccherini's style is characterized by the typical Rococo charm, lightness, and optimism

whilst undoubtedly true as a generalisation, is the sort of thing which, rightly or wrongly, puts many people off Boccherini, sadly - so I would point out that those looking for music with more troubled undertones will find them in Boccherini too. The Stabat Mater for solo soprano and strings, for example, (on Harmonia Mundi, coupled with a very dark quintet IIRC; also on other discs I haven't heard) is a beautiful work, melodically rich, highly expressive; elsewhere, there is plenty of chamber music with plenty going on below the surface.

Searching around, I also see that there's another Stabat Mater about which I'd forgotten. This disc looks well worth a punt (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=SACDA67108):

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571571089.png)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 22, 2009, 04:23:38 PM
In another thread, I posted some summary numbers from an excellent book on orchestral development from the Baroque into the early 19th century which is pertinent to this current discussion; in addition to considering the changing instrumentation of this period, the orchestras also show tremendous alternation in their numbers and compositions; the book shown below is an excellent documentation of these changes (really written for a college course, so my read was not as thorough as possible) - but just another consideration for the music of this time, i.e. the orchestras used were much smaller that those that often perform this music in recent years and the instruments and performing practices were different - yet, another interesting 'mix' in this fascinating period of music!  :D

Quote......... - should Haydn be played w/ the size orchestra he was familiar w/ in his times, i.e. 18th century, and w/ the instruments of the times, esp. the woodwinds (including tunings, strings - gut, etc.) - don't think that Papa Joe would even understand his music being performed by a late Romantic orchestra approaching 100 members!

A few months ago, I was reading the book shown below The Birth of the Orchestra (subtitled 'History of an Institution, 1650-1815) - this is an in-depth analysis of orchestral development, the latter half during Haydn's times; to be honest this is really appropriate for a college textbook, so did skip over a lot of parts; but out of curiosity concerning the SIZE of orchestras back then, I did a brief compilation of the appendices concerning the size of orchestras during the periods of Haydn's composing; below is just a summary:

Orchestra Sampling (yrs)                 Number          Range             Average

       1754-1759                                 23                 10-50               29
       1773-1779                                 33                 12-68               33
       1791-1796                                 43                 10-86               34
Sorry, but can't get these titles & columns to 'line up' easily!  :-\

But the point is that during Haydn's times, orchestras likely averaged only 20-30 players (the larger ones in the ranges listed were operatic/theater groups); plus, the wind instruments were still in a stage of development and were wood back then; the keyboards were organ, harpsichord, or fortepianos.  Of course, the string instruments were likely gut, and the mode of playing, tuning, etc. different from modern orchestras; I'm w/ Q, the orchestras used in Haydn's times were 'small' in comparison to our modern ones, the ratio & types of instruments (esp. the winds) were different, and the performance practices likely not the same.  To me the Haydn Symphonies sound wonderful if well played regardless of the orchestra (and I have about half of his output by nearly a half dozen performers), but would be FUN to hear these as did Papa Joe -  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hAAOVLkNL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: sul G on February 22, 2009, 04:19:09 PM
Thanks for that, Gurn. The following:

whilst undoubtedly true as a generalisation, is the sort of thing which, rightly or wrongly, puts many people off Boccherini, sadly - so I would point out that those looking for music with more troubled undertones will find them in Boccherini too. The Stabat Mater for solo soprano and strings, for example, (on Harmonia Mundi, coupled with a very dark quintet IIRC; also on other discs I haven't heard) is a beautiful work, melodically rich, highly expressive; elsewhere, there is plenty of chamber music with plenty going on below the surface.

Searching around, I also see that there's another Stabat Mater about which I'd forgotten. This disc looks well worth a punt (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=SACDA67108):

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571571089.png)



Good point, Luke. While it is true that much of his earlier music (on which his reputation was built) is quite galant, his later music, post-1790, is very much more harmonically and melodically intricate. Even in just chamber music, not to mention such as the Stabat mater. This disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/617MWFVC9JL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

is a good example of that. It is his last string trios, and they differ greatly from his early ones like the Op 14 set. Wouldn't do at all to pigeonhole a composer of this breadth, he touched all the bases in his long career. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 22, 2009, 04:31:57 PM
Two more Grétry for you to get acquainted with, Dear Freund Gurn:

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:35:05 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 22, 2009, 04:31:57 PM
Two more Grétry for you to get acquainted with, Dear Freund Gurn:



Ooh, that Suites & Overtures disk looks like just the right place for me to start. Amazon must have that, and so shall I. :)

Gracias, Señorita!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2009, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 11:23:07 AM
Thanks, Karl, you were the 21st century exception I mentioned. :)  maybe that will make you give us a post here and there, like on early Russians, maybe?  :)

8)

The only pre-Glinka Russians I turn up offhand are Dmitri Bortnyansky, Maksim Berezovsky & Yevstigney Fomin, Gurn . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2009, 04:38:19 PM
The only pre-Glinka Russians I turn up offhand are Dmitri Bortnyansky, Maksim Berezovsky & Yevstigney Fomin, Gurn . . . .

Umm, you forgot Ivan Khandoshkin... ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2009, 04:54:53 PM
Ah, Vanya!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 22, 2009, 04:56:05 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 22, 2009, 04:31:57 PM
Two more Grétry for you to get acquainted with, Dear Freund Gurn:

Grétry is one of those names I first ran across in Poe . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:56:09 PM
Here is another composer of the Classical Era. This bio is from the Naxos website, so the references are to the 3 Naxos symphony disks that are out there. They are first-rate, and give a good view of Vanhal as a symphonist. In addition, he wrote a superior set of Oboe Quartets (oboe & string trio) and many concertos. His double bass concerto is available on Hyperion with 2 by Ditters. The oboe quartets are on Helios. I really like his music, it embodies Viennese Classical style very nicely, but also has that touch of exoticism that comes from his Bohemian background. A fine example of a composer that repays handsomely in the time invested in seeking out his works. 

Johann Baptist Vanhal (1739 - 1813)

Johann Baptist Vanhal was born in 1739 to a Bohemian peasant family, and received his early training from a local musician. From these humble beginnings he was able to earn a living as a village organist and choirmaster. It was a Countess, who heard him playing the violin, that took him to Vienna where she arranged lessons in composition with the great Dittersdorf. Further patronage helped him to travel and gain further knowledge of music. Though a temporary mental breakdown happened at the age of 35, he was now moving in exalted musical company, and it is reported he played quartets with Haydn, Mozart and Dittersdorf.

So famous did he become that he was probably the first musician to earn a living entirely from composing without any other appointment. He had to be a prolific writer to meet the demands made upon him he, and attributed to him are 100 quartets, at least 73 symphonies, 95 sacred works, and almost countless instrumental and vocal works. He often had a tendency to explore, but his greatest gift was an unending flow of memorable melodies.

Such was his success that within a few years of his symphonies being written, they were being performed around the world, and as far distant as the United States. In later life, however, he rarely moved from Vienna where he was also an active teacher.

His music has a more vivacious and rustic quality than Haydn. The four Sinfonias (or symphonies) included on this disc (Disk 1 of the Naxos series) were in three movements. In that sense he had not moved to Haydn's four movement format, and they are all in a conventional fast - slow - fast configuration. Where he did experiment was in the bold colors he created in the outer movements, the major role in the Presto finale of the AE 97 Sinfonia containing a major role for two horns. At the other extreme, there is a very fine cello solo in the second movement of the A major symphony. There is an equally gorgeous oboe solo in the second movement of the D major symphony. His 'Comista' Sinfonia is a most imposing work, the equal of anything Haydn was to compose in his earlier years, the stately central movement a creation of particular delight.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 05:26:15 PM
And finally for tonight, one of my personal favorites. :)

Franz Krommer (1759-1831)
He was baptized Frantisek Vincenc, but used the Germanized version of his name, Franz Vincent. Krommer was born in Kamenice in Moravia on November 27th 1759, as son of an innkeeper and later mayor of the town, Jirí Kramár, now part of the Czech Republic. He studied the violin and organ with his uncle Antonín Matthias Kramár in Turán from 1773 to 1776. He became organist in Turán in 1777.  Krommer moved to Vienna in 1785 but soon found employment as a violinist in the orchestra of the Duke of Styrum in Simontornya, Hungary; In 1790 Krommer was appointed Kapellmeister of the Cathedral at Pécs (Western Hungaria) and later as Kapellmeister in the service of a certain Duke Karolyi and Prince Antal Grassalkovich de Gyarak. Krommer returned to Vienna in 1795, and in 1798 he was appointed Kapellmeister to Duke Ignaz Fuchs; after 1810 he was employed as Ballet-Kapellmeister at the Hoftheater. In 1813, he became the last director of chamber music and court composer to the emperors, following Leopold Kozeluch. He remained on this post to his death in Vienna on January 8th 1831.

Franz Krommer was a very successful and influential composer, with an output of some 300 works. These included approximately ten symphonies (some of them lost), numerous violin concertos, and a large quantity of chamber works including 26 string quintets published between 1797 and the mid-1820s (second in number only to his string quartets, of which more than 70 are known)

One of the genres where he was quite prolific, as well as very talented, was in the production of wind quartets and quintets. These featured a wind instrument (oboe, clarinet, flute or bassoon) in company with a string trio or quartet. They are exceedingly fine and entertaining.

Here are a few recommended recordings:

Wind Serenades

4 Octet-Partitas, Op. 57, 71, 76 & 78/EMI CDC7543832
    Sabine Meyer Wind Ensemble
4 Partitas, Op. 45/Etcetera KTC1141
    Jeroen Weierink /Josef Triebensee Ensemble

Wind Concertos

3 Clarinet Concertos, Op. 35, 36 & 86/Claves CD50-8602
    Thomas Friedli & Anthony Pay (clarinets)/English Chamber Orchestra
2 Oboe Concertos in F major, Op. 37 & 52/Hyperion CDA66411
    Sarah Francis (oboe), Howard Shelley/London Mozart Players

Oboe Quartets & Quintets

2 Oboe Quartets & 2 Oboe Quintets
     Sarah Francis (oboe) & the Tagore String Trio (Barritt - 2nd viola on Quintets)
     Regis  RRC 1201

Bassoon Quartets

2 Quartets for Bassoon & String Trio (Op 46 # 1 & 2)
     Hübner, Lüthy, Eaton & Latzko
     CPO 999 297
Includes the Sonata in Bb for Cello & Bassoon K 292 - Mozart


8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Herman on February 23, 2009, 12:37:45 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:56:09 PM
So famous did [Vanhal] become that he was probably the first musician to earn a living entirely from composing without any other appointment.


Obviously this is very interesting. Big part of the Mozart story is that WAM was one of the first composers to strike out on his own.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 23, 2009, 04:50:48 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 04:05:58 PM
On the old forum, SonicMan and I started many threads on Classical Era composers. Some of these became very popular, a few didn't. In any case, the initial posts nearly always contained a brief biography and perhaps a few music recommendations to be getting on with. Rather than restart those threads, I thought to go back and copy and paste that original post so that the composers will be discussed in their context with each other. :)


For those just getting into these composers, a wealth of material can be found in two current threads:  1) Sara's Composer's Index (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8566.0.html); and 2) Classic-Early Romantic Composers - A Cornucopia! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,284.0.html), a thread that I started and linked to the old forum, and now functioning again after Rob's resusciatation!   :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sTisTi on February 23, 2009, 07:29:45 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 05:26:15 PM
And finally for tonight, one of my personal favorites. :)
Franz Krommer (1759-1831)
My favourite Krommer:
Symphonies op. 40 & op. 102,  Matthias Bamert / London Mozart Players
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 23, 2009, 03:49:56 PM
Well, of course that I hadn't noticed this thread before, dear Gurn! Otherwise there would be already some posts from this fellow classicist! ;)

On Russian music during classicism, there's not much that I can add to the remarks already done. Anyway, the most outstanding figure from this period is, no doubt, Bortniansky, whose religious music has a very powerful emotional content. His simultaneously Russian, religious and classical sound is quite impressive. His secular works are to me less impressive, but written very competently.

Other composers active in Russia during that period were Sarti and Martín y Soler; curiously, both of them were quoted by Mozart in the Tafelmusik in Don Giovanni.

A composer to consider, nevertheless, is Alexander Alyabiev, whose music, a very peculiar blend of Russian, German and Italian influences, is highly enjoyable (I would say he's the direct predecessor to Glinka). There is a recent CD (2006 or 2007) released by Fuga Libera, that shows his skills as instrumental composer (many opera overtures, a group of orchestral variations and even a Symphonic Picture).

Krommer/Kramár would deserve a decent post from my part, and as I'm quite sleepy right now, I guess I will leave it for tomorrow. I will add just one comment now, for the sake of intrigue: in my very humble opinion, his concerto for oboe op. 52 is the most beautiful composed for that instrument during the classical period. If it had been composed by Haydn or Mozart, it would be performed regularly in the standard repertoire.

I will try to complete your recommended discography, Gurn... ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2009, 04:27:26 PM
Quote from: Herman on February 23, 2009, 12:37:45 AM
Obviously this is very interesting. Big part of the Mozart story is that WAM was one of the first composers to strike out on his own.

And indeed he was. He came to Vienna in 1781 for just that purpose. Vanhal, however, had been there already. I can't remember where I read it, but I believe it was 1772 or 1773.

That is not to say that Mozart was entirely successful at it, but he was much more successful than history has given him credit for. During most of his 10 years in Vienna, he and Constanze were doing very well indeed. And if he had lived, he was finally in a position where success was on his doorstep.

But Vanhal was immensely popular in his own time. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2009, 04:30:18 PM
Quote from: sTisTi on February 23, 2009, 07:29:45 AM
My favourite Krommer:
Symphonies op. 40 & op. 102,  Matthias Bamert / London Mozart Players

That's a nice disk. Symphonies weren't a major part of Krommer's oeuvre, but he did them in a very entertaining manner.

For those of you who like the music of this time, and haven't gotten any of the Chandos "Contemporaries of Mozart" series, you should give one or two of them a try. This Krommer and the Carl Stamitz (and the Vaclav Pichl, too) are all good choices. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2009, 04:42:34 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on February 23, 2009, 03:49:56 PM
Well, of course that I hadn't noticed this thread before, dear Gurn! Otherwise there would be already some posts from this fellow classicist! ;)

Well, you're forgiven, Gabriel, since we just all met on this corner for the first time yesterday. I figured you would soon saunter by, in your classic cut leather jacket, smoking a Gauloise and listening to Haydn on your iPod... ;D

QuoteOn Russian music during classicism, there's not much that I can add to the remarks already done. Anyway, the most outstanding figure from this period is, no doubt, Bortniansky, whose religious music has a very powerful emotional content. His simultaneously Russian, religious and classical sound is quite impressive. His secular works are to me less impressive, but written very competently.

Other composers active in Russia during that period were Sarti and Martín y Soler; curiously, both of them were quoted by Mozart in the Tafelmusik in Don Giovanni.

A composer to consider, nevertheless, is Alexander Alyabiev, whose music, a very peculiar blend of Russian, German and Italian influences, is highly enjoyable (I would say he's the direct predecessor to Glinka). There is a recent CD (2006 or 2007) released by Fuga Libera, that shows his skills as instrumental composer (many opera overtures, a group of orchestral variations and even a Symphonic Picture).

Ah, interesting info, and thanks for it. You'll even have Karl listening to Classical if you keep that up. :)  Of course, Mozart had his own reasons for choosing Martín y Soler: his opera, Una Cosa Rara supplanted Le Nozze di Figaro as the Viennese favorite a year or 2 earlier. And Sarti was famous in his own right. I think that Tafelmusik scene in DG is one of the wittiest little bit of current events in all of Mozart. I invariably enjoy it.

QuoteKrommer/Kramár would deserve a decent post from my part, and as I'm quite sleepy right now, I guess I will leave it for tomorrow. I will add just one comment now, for the sake of intrigue: in my very humble opinion, his concerto for oboe op. 52 is the most beautiful composed for that instrument during the classical period. If it had been composed by Haydn or Mozart, it would be performed regularly in the standard repertoire.

I will try to complete your recommended discography, Gurn... ;)

My personal favorites of Krommer are the various wind & string 4tets and 5tets. I am particularly fond of this genre anyway (Mozart wrote several, as did Vanhal, Krommer, Reicha, Danzi and many others) and Krommer's are very nice indeed. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2009, 06:23:14 PM
Well, since SonicMan is too humble to repost his own thread starters, I'll take the initiative and put one of my favorites here. :D

Antonio Rosetti (1746-1792), a.k.a. František Antonín Rössler (or confusingly by other names) was born in Bohemia of Czech origin, but chose to Italianize his name (leading to further confusion with other musicians).  He received his education in Prague and at a Jesuit college in central Bohemia, where he studied theology (intending to be a priest) and music, but in the early 1770s decided to pick music as his avocation.  Rosetti was a double bass player and a member of the Prince Ernst orchestra, of which he became director in 1785.  The Prince's orchestra had a fine group of wind players and musical events at the chateau occurred weekly, so a large part of Rosetti's compositional oeuvre comprises works of chamber music.

In 1781, he visited Paris, where his music was warmly received, an event repeated in other European cities.  Rosetti became orchestral conductor of the Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin in 1789 at the peak of his reputation; symphonies and vocal works were commissioned further enhancing his reputation.  During that time, he was also summoned to the court of King Frederick William III of Berlin to present his Oratorio Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.  However, Rosetti, who suffered from poor health most of his life, became seriously ill. and died in June of 1792 and was buried at Ludwigslust (debate exists about his age claiming his year of birth to be ca. 1750).

Rosetti's musical influences were primarily late Baroque-early Classic with Haydn having a major impact on his compositional direction.  In addition, his writing for smaller groups, especially wind instruments, was governed by his contact with the wind players in the orchestras of which he directed or was a member.  A partial listing of his works (comprising 400 or so) include 44 Symphonies, 4 keyboard concerti, 6 violin concerti, 1 viola concerto, 12 flute concerti, 7 oboe concerti, 4 clarinet concerti, 5 bassoon concerti, 17 horn concerti, 6 double horn concerti, 5 sinfonias concertante, 38 partitas/serenades, 12 string quartets, 11 keyboard sonatas, 13 keyboard trios, 13 masses, 4 requiems, 22 other church works and 82 lieder.

I highly recommend Rosetti to anyone interested in this period of music. His music is lively, interesting, well-orchestrated and really, given its quality, it deserves to be better known. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2009, 06:32:59 PM
And yet another favorite....

One of my great discoveries of 2004 (alright, someone else discovered him first and pointed him out) was Joseph Kraus. He was an excellent symphonist, and the 4 disks on Naxos of his symphonies are a treasure.  His 6 string quartets are from 1783 approximately, and sound to me quite reminiscent of Haydn's. There is also a funeral mass for Gustav III.  This is a top shelf classical era composer who was admired by his peers, and most likely slipped into obscurity not because he deserved it, but because he chose to work in Sweden. Poor career choice in terms of international fame, but that in no way affects his music, which is dramatic, concise, lively and with that wonderful combination of  depth and entertainment value.

JOSEPH MARTIN KRAUS (1756-1792)
by Bertil van Boer

Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-1792) is one of the few composers of the eighteenth century to have been considered by both Joseph Haydn and Christoph Willibald von Gluck to be an original genius. He was a talented composer, a prolific correspondent, and a published author who during his youth produced a volume of poetry, a tragedy (Tolon), and one of the few music aesthetical treatises that can be associated with the literary Sturm und Drang movement.

The son of a regional civil servant, Kraus received his earliest education from the local schools in Büchen, a small town on the fringes of the Odenwald in central Germany.

At the age of twelve he was sent to the Jesuit Gymnasium and Music Seminar in Mannheim, where he received instruction in German literature from Anton Klein, the librettist of the first major German opera, Ignaz Holzbauer's "Günther von Schwarzburg", and in music from members of the famous Mannheim court orchestra. Following university studies in philosophy and law at Mainz and Erfurt, he was forced to remain for a year in his home in Büchen while his father underwent prosecution for misuse of office. During this period he began to concentrate his efforts in the fields of literature and music. In 1776 he returned to school in law at the University of Göttingen, where he came into contact with the remnants of the famous Sturm und Drang literary group, the Hainbund.

After two years of study there, he accepted a proposition to travel to Sweden in order to focus his career on music at the court of Gustav III. He spent two years of relative hardship attempting to break into the Stockholm musical establishment. A commission for an opera, Proserpine, whose text was drafted by the King himself, won him the post as Deputy Musical Director in 1781. The following year he was sent on a grand tour by Gustav in order to observe the latest trends in music theater in continental Europe. This lasted four years and brought him into contact with major figures such as Haydn, Glück, Antonio Salieri, Padre Martini, and others. He published his first set of works, six string quartets as his Op. 1, with Hummel and associated himself with the Viennese firm of Johann Traeg, who disseminated his works in copy form throughout the continent. His journey also took him throughout Germany, Italy, France, and England, where he witnessed the Händel Centenary celebrations in 1785.

While in Paris, he experienced difficulty with cabals back in Stockholm that sought to prevent his return, but their resolution in 1786 made it possible for him to become the leading figure in Gustavian musical life. In 1787 he was appointed as director of curriculum at the Royal Academy of Music, and the next year he succeeded Francesco Antonio Uttini as Kapellmästare, eventually attaining a reputation as an innovative conductor, progressive pedagogue, and multi-talented composer. He began publishing regularly with the new publishing firm in Stockholm, Olof Åhlström's Kongliga Priviligierade Not-Tryckeriet, and was a member of the Palmstedt literary circle, a group that discussed intellectual and cultural life in the Swedish capital.

Although he was a much sought after composer for stage music, his principal opera, Æneas i Cartago, remained unperformed during his lifetime. In January of 1792 he was present at the masked ball wherein his patron, Gustav III, was assassinated, causing considerable turmoil in the cultural establishment that the monarch had nurtured. His own health deteriorated shortly thereafter, and he died only a few months later in December of 1792 from tuberculosis. He was buried in the Stockholm suburb of Tivoli following a ceremony where his coffin was carried across the ice of the Brunsviken by torchlight.

I am interested in any comment on his music. I have his symphonies, string quartets and solo piano music (Brautigam on BIS). I would particularly like to find his violin concerti. Anyone heard them?

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 23, 2009, 07:08:57 PM
Gurn: Somebody has to congratulate you repeatedly to your super-successful new thread.

Congratulations, Gurn!  :-*

And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.

Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!

Still talking to me?  ???

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Herman on February 24, 2009, 01:06:25 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2009, 04:42:34 PM
My personal favorites of Krommer are the various wind & string 4tets and 5tets. I am particularly fond of this genre anyway (Mozart wrote several, as did Vanhal, Krommer, Reicha, Danzi and many others) and Krommer's are very nice indeed. :)

So a quick check of the available Krommer recordings shows there are 'partitas for winds'. Are these anywhere near the top of Krommer's output, so to speak?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 24, 2009, 03:03:25 AM
Quote from: Herman on February 24, 2009, 01:06:25 AM
So a quick check of the available Krommer recordings shows there are 'partitas for winds'. Are these anywhere near the top of Krommer's output, so to speak?

If you are just concerned by "depth", you will probably have some problems to assimilate them. But if you enjoy excellently crafted, inventive and melodious wind music, you can't go wrong with them. They don't reach the level of Rejcha's quintets, but Krommer really knew how to write for wind instruments.

As far as I know, the most extensive compilation is the one released by Tudor and played by the Zurich Wind Octet(opp. 57, 67, 69, 71, 73, 76, 77, 78, and 79, plus some works without opus number). The three op. 45 partitas are not there, but there is a good Chandos recording.

Anyway, answering directly to your last question, I wouldn't consider them to be at the top of Krommer's output.

Unfortunately, the recordings of some of his very fine compositions are not easy to find, if they exist at all. There is, for example, a beautiful string trio in F major (op. 96) which I own in two versions (I ignore if there are other versions available). It is remarkably well written, with no hint of the typical difficulties for writing for this formation. For a sample of the string trio during classicism I would probably pick Mozart's 563 and this one (Beethoven's string trios have never been my cup of tea).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 04:27:02 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 23, 2009, 07:08:57 PM
And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.

Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!

Still talking to me?  ???




Well, it doesn't have to be called "Classical", that's what has been instituted over the years. As I mentioned in my first post, labels like that are merely a convenience for people who love to pigeonhole things.

For me, the entire period from the end of the Period of Polyphony (Baroque, if you will) to the beginning of the Period of Cacophony, in other words, the Period of Homophony, Melody and Tonality, constitutes a single age. If you were inclined to label it, and wanted to call it something that people could relate to, then "Classico-Romantic" would work. The musical style trends swing back and forth throughout the period, sometimes more light and elegant, sometimes more dense and textured, but always within certain boundaries, like tonality and homophony. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on February 24, 2009, 04:49:50 AM
QuoteQuote from: Brünnhilde forever on Today at 04:08:57
And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.

Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!

Still talking to me? 

I don't think there is such a thing as a real classical music lover who doesn't know his 'classical periods'.  They help objectify the World in which the composer moved, help define the influences around him, musical and otherwise, that affected his musical output.  Knowing things like what the Renaissance was, and who is credited with a move away from the Classical to the Romantic, etc subconsciously enrich ones listening experience and understanding of the piece as a whole.
People who listen to Classical music and say they like it without even trying to find out why are patter merchants.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Herman on February 24, 2009, 05:08:02 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 23, 2009, 07:08:57 PM
Gurn: Somebody has to congratulate you repeatedly to your super-successful new thread.

Congratulations, Gurn!  :-*

And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.

Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!

So, this was a very interesting topic, full of information, something reminding one of the time GMG spread its wings, and now we get this?

On whose behalf are you busting in? The "identify this song for me" people?

Oh, let's not even think about it, and please, Gurn et al, just continue as before!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 05:13:46 AM
Quote from: Herman on February 24, 2009, 01:06:25 AM
So a quick check of the available Krommer recordings shows there are 'partitas for winds'. Are these anywhere near the top of Krommer's output, so to speak?

Well, partitas are partitas. They are an evening's entertainment and make no pretense about being more than that. :)

So, that said, Krommer wrote a nice partita, as did Mozart, Rosetti, Danzi et al. As it happens, I do really like wind music, eapecially Harmonie octets and sextets. If you do too, Krommer should please you. But as Gabriel says, if you are looking for depth and intellectual stimulation, these aren't going to happen for you. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 24, 2009, 06:34:54 AM
I think it was thanks to Harry that I came across this set (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Concerto%20K%F6ln%20Edition/hnum/6314224), and it's been on my wish-list ever since.

Looking at the set, I was reminded of another composer whose music, when I first heard it, immediately reminded me of Mozart: Leopold Kozeluch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kozeluch). I have heard a couple of his symphonies, but nothing more. It appears that he was quite prolific and popular during his time.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on February 24, 2009, 06:44:25 AM
I came across a little curiosity in the Brilliant Classics Mozart Edition that I thought might interest you, Gurn.  It's a fragmented, three-movement suite for keyboard in C Major, K. 399; in the recording in the set it's performed on harpsichord.  I haven't really been able to find out much about the thing!  Know anything?  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 07:21:34 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on February 24, 2009, 06:44:25 AM
I came across a little curiosity in the Brilliant Classics Mozart Edition that I thought might interest you, Gurn.  It's a fragmented, three-movement suite for keyboard in C Major, K. 399; in the recording in the set it's performed on harpsichord.  I haven't really been able to find out much about the thing!  Know anything?  :)

Just have a moment, so it'll have to be the short answer.

This piece is also called "Suite in the Style of Händel". It was composed in 1782, almost certainly at the request of Baron von Sweiten, who hosted Sunday afternoon study sessions of polyphonic music, and incidentally introduced Mozart to a lot of Bach and Händel. He was likely also responsible for those exercises, K 404a & 405 that incorporated Bach's fugues with Mozart's Preludes for them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on February 24, 2009, 07:37:37 AM
:D You're a walking (typing) encyclopaedia!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 24, 2009, 09:34:15 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on February 24, 2009, 08:51:06 AM
I don't understand what your gripe is? 


Who is griping? - Did you forget to add a smiley to your post?  :) - I asked for information on an open forum/thread, in a civilly tone, and I received an answer in a civilly tone; a bit convoluted, but helpful, maybe even to the unwashed masses who are not graduate musicians, yet simply enjoy listening to other music besides the pop variety.

Thank you, Gurn  :-*
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 09:39:29 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 24, 2009, 09:34:15 AM
Who is griping? - Did you forget to add a smiley to your post?  :) - I asked for information on an open forum/thread, in a civilly tone, and I received an answer in a civilly tone; a bit convoluted, but helpful, maybe even to the unwashed masses who are not graduate musicians, yet simply enjoy listening to other music besides the pop variety.

Thank you, Gurn  :-*

Well, convoluted was the best I could manage, because it is not as simple a subject as we would all like it to be. :)  But the attempts to tie music stages in with those of the other arts has gone on for a very long time. I am not trying to perpetuate the practice when I do it too, I am only trying to communicate thoughts on a level that we have all agreed upon, however hesitantly. But I did tell you my true belief in my reply to you: I don't think there is such a thing as a true Classical Period, only a much larger period of tonal, homophonic (mainly) music which I prefer the term "Classico-Romantic". That in itself is a fairly radical concept, it seems... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on February 24, 2009, 09:41:13 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on February 24, 2009, 09:34:15 AM
Who is griping? - Did you forget to add a smiley to your post?  :) - I asked for information on an open forum/thread, in a civilly tone, and I received an answer in a civilly tone; a bit convoluted, but helpful, maybe even to the unwashed masses who are not graduate musicians, yet simply enjoy listening to other music besides the pop variety.

I apologize then.  I misread the tone of your message and jumped to conclusions.  I deleted my post.  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on February 24, 2009, 09:50:34 AM
Pace! Peace! Frieden!

:-*
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 24, 2009, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: opus67 on February 24, 2009, 06:34:54 AM
Looking at the set, I was reminded of another composer whose music, when I first heard it, immediately reminded me of Mozart: Leopold Kozeluch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kozeluch). I have heard a couple of his symphonies, but nothing more. It appears that he was quite prolific and popular during his time.

Kozeluch wrote some very interesting works. I remember I bought one CD of his because I noticed it included a sinfonia concertante for mandolin, trumpet, piano, double-bass and orchestra. My immediate question was how could anyone manage to write coherently for so different instruments (I guess I don't know other concertante work in all classicism with such an extraordinary combination). I wondered about a possible solution most of all concerning the first movement, where a sonata/concerto form is supposed to happen. Kozeluch's solution was, to me, brilliant. He divided the instrumental forces in three: the orchestra (1); trumpet, mandolin and double-bass (2); and the piano (3). So, the first exposition - traditionally orchestral - was taken by the orchestra and the trumpet, mandolin and double-bass, while just in the second exposition - traditionally for the soloist(s) - the piano took the leading role. The further exchanges are all happy: Kozeluch keeps an impressive balance in a 15-minute movement, offering to the listener very happy ideas, all suitable to the nature of each of the participants (v. gr., martial calls from the trumpet, intimate passages from the mandolin). The exchanges increase as the end approaches, so a bit before the last cadential section there is a particularly enjoyable moment when the piano keeps a harmonical support for the dialogue of the other three soloists. The sound is typically classical, so it is not something that calls your attention at once; but when I realize the "effortless effort" that Kozeluch does with this formation, I cannot but admire such a natural effect. (That naturality, so appreciated during the classical era, is often disregarded in our days... unfortunately).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 05:22:35 PM
Kozeluch was actually best known as a piano virtuoso and composer of sonatas. Everything else he did was an adjunct to that. In addition to his symphonies on Chandos, and the odd clarinet concerto here and there, I have one disk of his works by Christine Faron on fortepiano, and they are really quite nice.

"The periodical "Pfeffer und Salz" from April 5, 1786 reported, "It is no secret that Herr Leopold Kozeluch competes with Mozart. His art on the pianoforte is not to be judged, for he is perhaps the only virtuoso in Vienna who never plays in public. His compositions, on the other hand, bespeak an excellent mind, and no other fault is to be found with them than they are too difficult....In general, there are amateur ladies here who play such concertos as they have learnt almost as well as Mozart himself."

And he is also the composer who made this famous statement at Mozart's death: 'Of course it's too bad about such a great genius, but it's good for us that he's dead. Because if he had lived longer, really the world would not have given a single piece of bread for our compositions.'

I can recommend Kozeluch's music at the very least in that everything I have heard from him has been above average. And the average in those times was quite good. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on February 24, 2009, 07:24:42 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 05:13:46 AM
Well, partitas are partitas. They are an evening's entertainment and make no pretense about being more than that. :)

So, that said, Krommer wrote a nice partita.... :)

8)

So much so that one may even mistake the work for Haydn. ;D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 05:13:46 AM
As it happens, I do really like wind music....

Too often overlooked.  (David (Ross) pointed this out many moons ago.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 25, 2009, 01:43:28 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 24, 2009, 06:34:54 AM
I think it was thanks to Harry that I came across this set (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Concerto%20K%F6ln%20Edition/hnum/6314224), and it's been on my wish-list ever since.

And you have in that set the excellent Eberl symphonies op. 33 and 34, which were ranked beside Beethoven's in their time (around 1805). They are quite extraordinary works, and - within the works I have listened to - probably the most important in their genre composed in Austria and Germany during the first decade of the nineteenth century (naturally, with Beethoven's). It is really a loss for music that Eberl died in 1807 (41 years old): his chamber music is equally attractive. A very solid composer.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on February 25, 2009, 04:16:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 07:21:34 AM
Just have a moment, so it'll have to be the short answer.

This piece is also called "Suite in the Style of Händel". It was composed in 1782, almost certainly at the request of Baron von Sweiten, who hosted Sunday afternoon study sessions of polyphonic music, and incidentally introduced Mozart to a lot of Bach and Händel. He was likely also responsible for those exercises, K 404a & 405 that incorporated Bach's fugues with Mozart's Preludes for them. :)
(http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org/files/classicalmusicmayhem/smilies/notworthy.gif)

You're a legend, Gurn! 

I suspected it was some sort of reflection of his Baroque studies, especially given the Kochel number, which places it around that time.  I think the piece is quite clever; it's interesting hearing Mozart on harpsichord.  Those Prelude & Fugue arrangements are quite skillfully done as well.

Thanks for the info!  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2009, 04:26:44 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on February 25, 2009, 04:16:36 AM
(http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org/files/classicalmusicmayhem/smilies/notworthy.gif)

You're a legend, Gurn! 

I suspected it was some sort of reflection of his Baroque studies, especially given the Kochel number, which places it around that time.  I think the piece is quite clever; it's interesting hearing Mozart on harpsichord.  Those Prelude & Fugue arrangements are quite skillfully done as well.

Thanks for the info!  ;)

You're welcome. I got lucky, you asked the one question that I knew the answer...  :-[  :)

Actually, in addition to that work, probably everything from before 1775 should be done on a harpsichord. I just don't like it quite as much. Harpsichords are excellent for Baroque music (which is why this sounds so nice), but in homophonic music, it just doesn't satisfy nearly so much. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 25, 2009, 06:09:43 AM
Thank you, Gabriel and Gurn, for the information on Kozeluch.

Quote from: Gabriel on February 24, 2009, 01:52:14 PM
Kozeluch wrote some very interesting works. I remember I bought one CD of his because I noticed it included a sinfonia concertante for mandolin, trumpet, piano, double-bass and orchestra. My immediate question was how could anyone manage to write coherently for so different instruments (I guess I don't know other concertante work in all classicism with such an extraordinary combination). I wondered about a possible solution most of all concerning the first movement, where a sonata/concerto form is supposed to happen. Kozeluch's solution was, to me, brilliant. He divided the instrumental forces in three: the orchestra (1); trumpet, mandolin and double-bass (2); and the piano (3). So, the first exposition - traditionally orchestral - was taken by the orchestra and the trumpet, mandolin and double-bass, while just in the second exposition - traditionally for the soloist(s) - the piano took the leading role. The further exchanges are all happy: Kozeluch keeps an impressive balance in a 15-minute movement, offering to the listener very happy ideas, all suitable to the nature of each of the participants (v. gr., martial calls from the trumpet, intimate passages from the mandolin). The exchanges increase as the end approaches, so a bit before the last cadential section there is a particularly enjoyable moment when the piano keeps a harmonical support for the dialogue of the other three soloists. The sound is typically classical, so it is not something that calls your attention at once; but when I realize the "effortless effort" that Kozeluch does with this formation, I cannot but admire such a natural effect. (That naturality, so appreciated during the classical era, is often disregarded in our days... unfortunately).

Now that you have mentioned it (the SC), I checked the other things I have posted about Kozeluch elsewhere in the web. As it turns out, the first time I came across this composer was through a sinfonia concertante of his. And I think it could have been the one the four instruments you describe. (I have mentioned this set (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Konzertante%20Sinfonien/hnum/7479810) while talking about the "discovery.") Now I'm eager to listen to it all over again.

And I'll look into Eberl, too. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 25, 2009, 08:12:10 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 25, 2009, 06:09:43 AM
As it turns out, the first time I came across this composer was through a sinfonia concertante of his. And I think it could have been the one the four instruments you describe. (I have mentioned this set (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Konzertante%20Sinfonien/hnum/7479810) while talking about the "discovery.") Now I'm eager to listen to it all over again.

I checked the recording. It is not the one I own, but it should be the same work I was talking about (I would be really surprised if Kozeluch had written two sinfonie concertanti for the same instruments!).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2009, 05:09:11 PM
Well, I remembered having a Kozeluch Sinfonie Concertante also, and I went back and checked it, and guess what? It turned out to be the Sinfonie Concertante in Eb for mandolin, trumpet, piano, double-bass and orchestra, no opus number (WoO). This is on the splendid 3 disk set from CPO called simply "Sinfonie Concertante". It is all played by ASMitF / Iona Brown & Consortium Classicum / Dieter Klocker. For those of you who are attracted to the form (it is rather like a concerto grosso, only in classical sonata form rather than polyphonic Baroque, of course), this set is a peach. It has works from Kozeluch, Pleyel, Hoffmeister, Winter, Abel, Crusell, Danzi and Schneider. And the solisti range from 2 bassoons to the group mentioned above, with many in between. Highly recommended for SQ, playing, good music, and a chance to hear composers off the beaten path. :)

8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CNSQMMCML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

At Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Concertantes/dp/B000174LNY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1235786845&sr=1-1)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 28, 2009, 06:54:05 AM
Well, a couple of pages back, I left a link to many of the composers under discussion in Gurn's new thread - these are all linked back to the old forum and seem to be functioning; most of these composers come from the later end of this Classic-Early Romantic era, but a similar list could likely be generated from the earlier end, i.e. Baroque-Early Classic.  But for those interested - pick a name(s) - usually some historic/bio background and specific CD recommendations -  :)

Quote from: SonicMan on April 13, 2007, 07:23:23 PM
As a continuation, below is a shorter list of composers in this category that have had 'separate' threads in our older GMG forum - just click on the names to the right of each composer, if interested; also, feel free to start/continue a new post in our present forum.   :D

Abel, Carl Friedrich (1723 - 1787)  Abel (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13127.0.html)
Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805) Boccherini (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2311.0.html)
Cartellieri, Antonio (1772- 1807) Cartellieri (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6051.0.html)
Cherubini, Luigi (1760 - 1842) Cherubini (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,10918.0.html)
Clementi, Muzio (1752 - 1832) Clementi (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6437.0.html)
Dittersdorf, Carl Ditters von (1739 - 1799) Dittersdorf (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2367.0.html)
Dussek, Jan Ladislav (1760 - 1812) Dussek (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9360.0.html)
Field, John (1782- 1837) Field (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,10133.0.html)
Hasse, Johann (1699- 1783) Hasse (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6135.0.html)
Haydn, Franz Joseph (1732 - 1809) Haydn (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,104.0.html)
Hoffmann, Leopold (1738 - 1793) Hoffmann (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,11384.0.html)
Holzbauer, Ignaz (1711- 1783) Holzbauer (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13090.0.html)
Hummel, Johann (1778- 1837) Hummel (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2740.0.html)
Kraus, Joseph Martin (1756 - 1792) Kraus (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2329.0.html)
Krommer, Franz (1759 - 1831) Krommer (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5132.0.html)
Locatelli, Pietro (1695- 1764) Locatelli (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9994.0.html)
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus (1756 - 1791) Mozart (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,133.0.html)
Onslow, Georges (1785- 1853) Onslow (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,3046.0.html)
Pichl, Vaclav (1741- 1805) Pichl (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4251.0.html)
Pleyel, Ignaz Joseph (1757 - 1831) Pleyel (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2619.0.html)
Quantz, Johann Joachim (1697 - 1773) Quantz (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9859.0.html)
Reicha, Anton (1770 - 1836) Reicha (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6089.0.html)
Ries, Ferdinand (1784 - 1838) Ries (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2678.0.html)
Rosetti, Antonio (1750- 1792) Rosetti (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9304.0.html)
Salieri, Antonio (1750 - 1825) Salieri (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2387.0.html)
Spohr, Louis (1784 - 1859) Spohr (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8185.0.html)
Stamitz, Carl (1745 - 1801) Stamitz (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,5672.0.html)
Vanhal, Johann Baptist (1739 - 1813)  Vanhal (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,2349.0.html)
Viotti, Giovanni Battista (1755 - 1824) Viotti (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4293.0.html)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 07:00:30 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 28, 2009, 06:54:05 AM
Well, a couple of pages back, I left a link to many of the composers under discussion in Gurn's new thread - these are all linked back to the old forum and seem to be functioning; most of these composers come from the later end of this Classic-Early Romantic era, but a similar list could likely be generated from the earlier end, i.e. Baroque-Early Classic.  But for those interested - pick a name(s) - usually some historic/bio background and specific CD recommendations -  :)


Good list, Dave. As I discovered the other night, going back and finding all those threads can be a time-consuming challenge. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 28, 2009, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 07:00:30 AM
Good list, Dave. As I discovered the other night, going back and finding all those threads can be a time-consuming challenge. :)

8)

Yep, no need to re-duplicate our efforts & those of many others; plus, Sara's 'Composer Index' list is valuable for the 'current' forum - now, if we only had a similar list to the 'old' forum for the earlier 'transition' period -  ;) ;D   Dave

BTW, for those wanting more book recommendations, Mozart in Vienna, 1781-1791 (1986, then translated) by Volkmar Braunbehrens is quite good; obviously covers Wolfie's last 10 years and has plenty of discussion of Vienna of the times, Mozart's friends & fellow composers, and discounts a few myths about his last days.

In addition, I just read in the most recent issue of Fanfare a review of Mozart, Haydn and Early Beethoven: 1781-1802 (2008) by Daniel Heartz (professor emeritus, U. of CA @ Berkeley) - this seems to be part of a 'triology' of books, and likely the last one (he is 80 y/o now) - it is a 'massive' (800 pgs) work and not cheap (Norton); my wife is trying to get me an inter-library loan of his first book in this series Haydn, Mozart and the Viennese School: 1740-1780, published in 1995 and another 800 pg. tome (not sure if I'll make it through these books!) - will try - Dave  :)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/cd/8c/f48d9833e7a0b4aae7b63110._AA240_.L.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MrfSLSbrL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MNT1D1APL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 07:42:39 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 28, 2009, 07:17:01 AM
Yep, no need to re-duplicate our efforts & those of many others; plus, Sara's 'Composer Index' list is valuable for the 'current' forum - now, if we only had a similar list to the 'old' forum for the earlier 'transition' period -  ;) ;D   Dave

BTW, for those wanting more book recommendations, Mozart in Vienna, 1781-1791 (1986, then translated) by Volkmar Braunbehrens is quite good; obviously covers Wolfie's last 10 years and has plenty of discussion of Vienna of the times, Mozart's friends & fellow composers, and discounts a few myths about his last days.

In addition, I just read in the most recent issue of Fanfare a review of Mozart, Haydn and Early Beethoven: 1781-1802 (2008) by Daniel Heartz (professor emeritus, U. of CA @ Berkeley) - this seems to be part of a 'triology' of books, and likely the last one (he is 80 y/o now) - it is a 'massive' (800 pgs) work and not cheap (Norton); my wife is trying to get me an inter-library loan of his first book in this series Haydn, Mozart and the Viennese School: 1740-1780, published in 1995 and another 800 pg. tome (not sure if I'll make it through these books!) - will try - Dave  :)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/cd/8c/f48d9833e7a0b4aae7b63110._AA240_.L.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MrfSLSbrL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MNT1D1APL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

Yes, those are handy lists, but it helps to consolidate them in one place. I, for one (and I'm not alone! :D ) am too lazy to do too much searching. Whereas you are a model of researching.   ;D

Books, yes. Braunbehrens' is a highly commendable book, not least because he makes a point of being a "mythbuster", something that is sorely needed for Mozart after the serious distortions of the 19th century. This is a good book.

Heartz is probably the archetype of critical research. His books are extremely well thought of at all levels. Your statement that they are pricey nails the problem nicely though. $80/book is a bit rich for my blood. And I have never seen them at a bargain price either, not even used. But I will own the trilogy one day, probably after the miraculous economic recovery that we are all waiting for... ;)

Some others on classical era music in general:

"Music in the Classic Period" by Reinhard Pauly - this is as much as anything a textbook on music history, specifically on the classical era. Quite readable and very informative.

"Classic and Romantic Music" by Friedrich Blume - This book, more than any single other, has influenced my thoughts on how the classical era fits into music history. Blume was the first to present the idea that there is no dichotomy between "classical" and "romantic" in terms of music, that they are (at their most extreme) simply extremes of the same music, and that nearly all the music of the time fits very neatly into the spectrum of the musical language possibilities. If you have a real interest in this topic, this book is a great starting point.

Interested in other recommendations. If you have read some really good books, please share the titles here. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 28, 2009, 08:06:02 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 07:42:39 AM
Yes, those are handy lists, but it helps to consolidate them in one place. I, for one (and I'm not alone! :D ) am too lazy to do too much searching. Whereas you are a model of researching.   ;D

Books, yes. Braunbehrens' is a highly commendable book, not least because he makes a point of being a "mythbuster", something that is sorely needed for Mozart after the serious distortions of the 19th century. This is a good book.

Heartz is probably the archetype of critical research. His books are extremely well thought of at all levels. Your statement that they are pricey nails the problem nicely though. $80/book is a bit rich for my blood. And I have never seen them at a bargain price either, not even used. But I will own the trilogy one day, probably after the miraculous economic recovery that we are all waiting for... ;)

"Classic and Romantic Music" by Friedrich Blume ....................

Yes, all of those years in 'academic radiology' and numerous research projects - does take persistence!  ;D  Fortunately, I've 'slowed down' the last 10 yrs!

Heartz's second book in this triology - Music in European Capitals: The Galant Style, 1720-1780 (2003) - over a 1000 pgs!  :o  Hope that he uses a lot of pictures & musical scores?; but I'll do another borrow if I get through the first one!  The final volume is just over $40 discounted on Amazon, still a hefty price.

Another Mozart book on my shelf is Mozart: The Early Years, 1756-1781 (2006) by Stanley Sadie - complements the previously mentioned one nicely and is of recent vintage (and affordable!) -  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CB1Z2CKHL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A4MSP1J9L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 08:28:38 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 28, 2009, 08:06:02 AM
Yes, all of those years in 'academic radiology' and numerous research projects - does take persistence!  ;D  Fortunately, I've 'slowed down' the last 10 yrs!

Heartz's second book in this triology - Music in European Capitals: The Galant Style, 1720-1780 (2003) - over a 1000 pgs!  :o  Hope that he uses a lot of pictures & musical scores?; but I'll do another borrow if I get through the first one!  The final volume is just over $40 discounted on Amazon, still a hefty price.

Another Mozart book on my shelf is Mozart: The Early Years, 1756-1781 (2006) by Stanley Sadie - complements the previously mentioned one nicely and is of recent vintage (and affordable!) -  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CB1Z2CKHL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A4MSP1J9L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

Well, Dave, if you are fortunate enough to get them from the library, we all expect some feedback. This set is destined for my shelves, just not right now. :)

Sadie was the preeminent Mozart scholar. His "Mozart: The Early Years" was the first volume of a projected set that aimed to be the definitive modern English language Mozart biography. The project was interrupted by his untimely death with just the first volume completed. :'(

There are many good books on Mozart, and the peripheral benefit of them is that you also get some information on his contemporaries. That is the bigger picture which is harder to bring into focus due to a lack of documentary material. If anyone has run across such a book, one with material on contemporaries, please add to the list. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sul G on February 28, 2009, 08:29:56 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 07:42:39 AM
Braunbehrens' is a highly commendable book, not least because he makes a point of being a "mythbuster", something that is sorely needed for Mozart after the serious distortions of the 19th century.

I knew it! I knew Gurn was a secret Newman fan..........;D 0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 08:50:20 AM
Quote from: sul G on February 28, 2009, 08:29:56 AM
I knew it! I knew Gurn was a secret Newman fan..........;D 0:)

Now, that is a low blow! Lucky for you I live 2500 miles away! :D

Actually, I was talking about things like "Poor Mozart" and "Constanze was a leeching bitch" and "Mozart was poisoned", that sort of thing. Newman didn't even want to give credit for the Gran Partitta! And we all saw in "Amadeus" that he really wrote it. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sul G on February 28, 2009, 08:56:03 AM
Ah yes, now that's a point: it's when Newman ignores documentary evidence like this that he really comes unstuck.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 09:03:53 AM
Quote from: sul G on February 28, 2009, 08:56:03 AM
Ah yes, now that's a point: it's when Newman ignores documentary evidence like this that he really comes unstuck.  ;D

Yup, there you go. Shaffer would never lead us astray. :)

Speaking of Mozart (which I don't want to dwell on, but it is hard not to), have you heard the disk "The Secret Mozart" played by Christopher Hogwood?  It is all solo music played on the clavichord.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516EESGbTwL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

If not, I highly recommend it to you especially.

1. Allegro in G minor, K. 312   
2. Andante & 5 Variations in G, K. 501/Andante (Thema)   
3. Andante & 5 Variations in G, K. 501/Var. 1
4. Andante & 5 Variations in G, K. 501/Var. 2
5. Andante & 5 Variations in G, K. 501/Var. 3
6. Andante & 5 Variations in G, K. 501/Var. 4 (minore)
7. Andante & 5 Variations in G, K. 501/Var. 5 (maggiore)
8. Minuetto in D, K. 355/Trio da M. Stadler/Minuetto   
9. Minuetto in D, K. 355/Trio da M. Stadler/Trio & Minuetto reprise
10. Marche funebre, K. 453a   
11. Andantino, K. 236   1:41   
12. Klavierstück in F, K. 33b   
13. Adagio for Glass Harmonica, K. 356   
14. Laßt uns mit geschlungen Händen K. 623   
15. Rondo in F, K. 494   
16. Theme & 2 Variations in A, K. 460/Theme   
17. Theme & 2 Variations in A, K. 460/Var. 1   
18. Theme & 2 Variations in A, K. 460/Var. 2   
19. Fantasia in D minor, K. 397   
20. Sonata in D, K. 381/I. Allegro   
21. Sonata in D, K. 381/II. Andante
22. Sonata in D, K. 381/III. Allegro molto
23. Fantasia in D minor, K.397 (with coda)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sul G on February 28, 2009, 09:11:54 AM
No - I have the Bach disc in that series, and have meant to get this one but haven't got round to it yet.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 28, 2009, 02:12:42 PM
I noticed that in the Dusík/Dussek thread of the old forum there was no mention to the very impressive Concerto in B flat major for two pianos, op. 63. A healthy Sunday recommendation: delightfully scored and showing in some parts textures and harmonies 2 or 3 decades ahead (there is even a section that reminds me... Rachmaninov). The exchanges between the piano are particularly enjoyable. One of the most beautiful works of late classicism and surely a jewel in the - unfortunately small - repertoire for two pianos.

I can recommend also to the admirers of beautiful harp playing a splendid CD ("Grands Desserts") of some of Dusík's works for that instrument played by Nasumi Nagasawa. Some of the compositions show a magnificent association between Nagasawa and Richard Egarr at the pianoforte. The sound is simply glorious: the idea of a modern piano there is unthinkable, for the timbres would be too different. There are certainly solos: Egarr plays the (more famous) piano sonata in F sharp minor, while Nagasawa delights with her almost "aerial" performance of the harp sonata op. 34 n. 1.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 02:30:28 PM
Ah, thanks for reminding us of Dussek, Gabriel. He is one of my favorites for sure. I haven't got that 2 pianoforte sonata, but now I will look it up. I do, however, have quite a few of his sonatas. This is a first rate piano composer. Haydn heard him play in London (on the 2nd London trip, I believe) and was very impressed. One bit of trivia about Dussek is that he invented the concept of the pianist sitting sideways to the audience so the soundboard would reflect the sound out into the crowd, and so that they could watch him play. I don't think anyone has played otherwise ever since. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn Symphonies 90, 91, Orchestra of the Age of - Sigiswald Kuijken - Symphony No. 90 - II. Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 28, 2009, 03:35:06 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on February 28, 2009, 02:12:42 PM
I noticed that in the Dusík/Dussek thread of the old forum there was no mention to the very impressive Concerto in B flat major for two pianos, op. 63. ...

I can recommend also to the admirers of beautiful harp playing a splendid CD ("Grands Desserts") of some of Dusík's works for that instrument played by Nasumi Nagasawa. ......

Gabriel - thanks for your comments; I just reviewed that old thread and despite a good beginning and posts by Gurn & I, the thread had a rather short life!  Thanks for the additional recommendations - now, I've actually added some more Dussek since those 2006/7 posts - boy, 2 years ago!

All of the additions below are excellent; CPO label doing well as usual; the Brilliant addition is a nice introduction, i.e. Piano Quintets by Dussek, Hummel, & Onslow - now after these additions, I've not acquired any of those HARP compositions - would like some recommendations, please, from all -  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/611XWEN3D3L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61UMK3FPr-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FYq9zgiSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 03:47:57 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 28, 2009, 03:35:06 PM
All of the additions below are excellent; CPO label doing well as usual; the Brilliant addition is a nice introduction, i.e. Piano Quintets by Dussek, Hummel, & Onslow - now after these additions, I've not acquired any of those HARP compositions - would like some recommendations, please, from all -  :D

I wonder which is the Piano Quintet included in that selection, SonicMan. I have a recording of such a work by Dusík, in F minor, op. 41, in a CD called "Chamber music for piano", also including the piano sonata op. 77 and a piano quartet in E flat major, op. 56. The quintet is not a first-rate work, but very enjoyable (the third movement is particularly beautiful). The CD, from the label Studio Matous, is excellently played and recorded.

I have just the second CD of the CPO series (opp. 9 and 77). I guess I will try to get the other one later.

For the harp works, the choice is Nagasawa. I have another CD with a similar content, played by Danielle Perrett in Meridian, and it is like listening to something different. Both performances are technically good, but I feel that Nagasawa is much more spiritual while playing. And, of course, Egarr is also a plus.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2009, 02:30:28 PM
One bit of trivia about Dussek is that he invented the concept of the pianist sitting sideways to the audience so the soundboard would reflect the sound out into the crowd, and so that they could watch him play. I don't think anyone has played otherwise ever since. :)

Very interesting, Gurn. I didn't know (or remember) that point. Alas, I'm afraid I will have to deny your last statement. I saw Mitsuko Uchida some months ago playing a magnificent KV 491 with her back towards the audience. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 01, 2009, 06:38:42 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 03:47:57 AM
I wonder which is the Piano Quintet included in that selection, SonicMan. I have a recording of such a work by Dusík, in F minor, op. 41, in a CD called "Chamber music for piano", ..........

For the harp works, the choice is Nagasawa...............

Gabriel - the Dussek work on the Brilliant disc is indeed Op. 41 as you indicate above - however, I was curious about 'how many' Piano Quintets he composed (he wrote SO MUCH chamber music); in checking Wiki HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ladislaus_Dussek), this single one is all I found listed (but may have missed others?).

Thanks for the Nagasawa recommendation - added the CD to my 'wish list', if still available?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 07:53:41 AM
I don't know how many either, Dave, but I do enjoy this one (Op 41). In any case, Dussek was most famous for his sonatas. There are quite a few disks of them out there, maybe not enough, but enough to start out with anyway. You can see in my "Listening now..." tag that I am listening to my favorite one, Op 35 #3 in c. Outside of Beethoven, this is as good as it gets at the turn of the century. Unfortunately this particular disk is OOP, and Amazon doesn't even list it in the "Discontinued by manufacturer" section, although I bought it from them only a year ago. It also shows up in a disk that IS available (at least BRO still have it) by Geoffrey Govier. There are also a few other sonatas scattered around (I only look for fortepiano versions, there are probably a lot of others on a modern piano), like the Op 5 which is on a disk called "French Pianoforte Music", which also features works by others of my favorites, such as Méhul and Jadin. There was a whole other classical/romantic transition going on in France at the turn of the century which will also bear discussion here at some point... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Dussek Sonatas / Staier - Andreas Staier - Op 35 #3 Sonata in c for Fortepiano 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro molto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on March 01, 2009, 08:00:11 AM
I will have a couple of hours free time before my flight tomorrow. Guess I will pop the Dussek sonata CD in for a spin. It must have been 6 or 7 years since I last played it. (I have played one of the harp CDs a couple of time in the mean time).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 08:08:18 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 01, 2009, 08:00:11 AM
I will have a couple of hours free time before my flight tomorrow. Guess I will pop the Dussek sonata CD in for a spin. It must have been 6 or 7 years since I last played it. (I have played one of the harp CDs a couple of time in the mean time).

What sonatas are they, Paul? Just curious, always looking for ones I don't have, particularly if they are on fortepiano. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Dussek Sonatas / Staier - Andreas Staier - Op 31 #2 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 3rd mvmt - Pastorale: Allegro non troppo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on March 01, 2009, 08:11:26 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 08:08:18 AM
What sonatas are they, Paul? Just curious, always looking for ones I don't have, particularly if they are on fortepiano. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Dussek Sonatas / Staier - Andreas Staier - Op 31 #2 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 3rd mvmt - Pastorale: Allegro non troppo

I will let you know when I get back from my trip! The CD is in my office. I will go to the office first before I go to the airport.

If I remembered correctly, it was probably a COLLINS CD. Was it Pizarro? I will find out tomorrow.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 08:13:40 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 01, 2009, 08:11:26 AM
I will let you know when I get back from my trip! The CD is in my office. I will go to the office first before I go to the airport.

If I remembered correctly, it was probably a COLLINS CD. Was it Pizarro? I will find out tomorrow.

Ah, very good. That is one I hadn't heard of, so maybe some new music if I can find a copy of it over here. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
C.P.E. Bach & W. F. Bach Works for 2 Harpsichords - Andreas Staier & Robert Hill - W.F. Bach Falck 10 Sonata in F for 2 Harpsichords 1st mvmt - [Allegro moderato]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 08:15:52 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 03:47:57 AM
Very interesting, Gurn. I didn't know (or remember) that point. Alas, I'm afraid I will have to deny your last statement. I saw Mitsuko Uchida some months ago playing a magnificent KV 491 with her back towards the audience. ;)

Interesting point, Gabriel. So maybe she is the exception that proves the rule. :)  I would have liked to hear that performance, K 491 is one of my personal favorites. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
C.P.E. Bach & W. F. Bach Works for 2 Harpsichords - Andreas Staier & Robert Hill - W.F. Bach Falck 10 Sonata in F for 2 Harpsichords 1st mvmt - [Allegro moderato]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on March 01, 2009, 08:22:26 AM
The conventional interpretation at the time about Dussek's practice of playing with his side to the audience was that he thought he looked best that way. Apparently he had a very good looking profile. Drawings of him seems to suggest that he was not much to look at from the front but much much better from the side!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 01, 2009, 08:22:26 AM
The conventional interpretation at the time about Dussek's practice of playing with his side to the audience was that he thought he looked best that way. Apparently he had a very good looking profile. Drawings of him seems to suggest that he was not much to look at from the front but much much better from the side!

Yes, he was famous for his pretty-boy profile. I think the sound thing was a bonus that sold the deal to other pianists, even ones without a profile. BTW, Dussek was a compulsive eater, and the last few years of his life he didn't tour because he was too fat to get around. I bet that was a profile he didn't enjoy showing off. ::)

8)




----------------
Listening to:
Field: Piano Concerto No.2 & 3 - Andreas Staier / Concerto Köln - Field H31 Concerto #2 in Ab 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 01, 2009, 09:00:18 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 08:26:54 AM
Yes, he was famous for his pretty-boy profile. I think the sound thing was a bonus that sold the deal to other pianists, even ones without a profile. BTW, Dussek was a compulsive eater, and the last few years of his life he didn't tour because he was too fat to get around. I bet that was a profile he didn't enjoy showing off. ..

Yep, I posted a number of photos of him (early & later in life) in the OP on the old forum thread - he did blow-up like a toad, maybe not quite Jabba the Hutt, but a resemblance, esp. in the jowls!  ;D

Forgot to post the other Dussek addition to my collection - the one mentioned by Gurn w/ Staier on the fortepiano - need to do some re-listening to those discs along w/ Becker on a modern piano; as I remember Staier can get to be a little of a 'key banger' at times, but just different interpretations - BTW, the Trio 1790 uses a fortepiano in the Piano Trios; Dussek wrote a lot of these but a check on Amazon still shows just the one offering by this superb group!  :)

(http://www.boxhillnorthfc.com.au/files/boxhillnorth/lookalikes/jabba.jpg)  (http://pixhost.ws/avaxhome/d3/24/000a24d3_medium.jpeg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 09:11:19 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 01, 2009, 09:00:18 AM
Yep, I posted a number of photos of him (early & later in life) in the OP on the old forum thread - he did blow-up like a toad, maybe not quite Jabba the Hutt, but a resemblance, esp. in the jowls!  ;D

Forgot to post the other Dussek addition to my collection - the one mentioned by Gurn w/ Staier on the fortepiano - need to do some re-listening to those discs along w/ Becker on a modern piano; as I remember Staier can get to be a little of a 'key banger' at times, but just different interpretations - BTW, the Trio 1790 uses a fortepiano in the Piano Trios; Dussek wrote a lot of these but a check on Amazon still shows just the one offering by this superb group!  :)

(http://www.boxhillnorthfc.com.au/files/boxhillnorth/lookalikes/jabba.jpg)  (http://pixhost.ws/avaxhome/d3/24/000a24d3_medium.jpeg)

Yes, if there is one thing to be said negatively about Staier, it is that he is a true Classical style keyboardist, which is to say, he articulates his notes ala Mozart. Dussek comes from that fractionally later period when legate e cantabile is required. Hard to say anything else had about him as I really enjoy his playing. The Field concertos I am listening to now are superb (Concerto Köln is in no small way responsible for that, either).

Trio 1790 not only have some wonderful Haydn trios (7 disks so far) but also some CPE Bach as well as the Dussek. All well worth looking into. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Field: Piano Concerto No.2 & 3 - Andreas Staier / Concerto Köln - Field H32 Concerto #3 in Eb 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 12:44:45 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 09:11:19 AM
Yes, if there is one thing to be said negatively about Staier, it is that he is a true Classical style keyboardist, which is to say, he articulates his notes ala Mozart. Dussek comes from that fractionally later period when legate e cantabile is required.

As I haven't listened Staier's Dussek (shame on me... I've had the CD in my hands!), I cannot comment specifically on his playing, but I agree that a strict Mozartian articulation wouldn't fit Dussek too much.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 07:53:41 AM
Outside of Beethoven, this is as good as it gets at the turn of the century.

For piano, I totally agree. Perhaps Clementi can be added to them, while I don't count Haydn, because he belongs to a previous generation. Other name to consider is Wölfl, but his importance is, in my opinion, inferior than Dussek's (but he has some remarkable works).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 01:01:25 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 12:44:45 PM
As I haven't listened Staier's Dussek (shame on me... I've had the CD in my hands!), I cannot comment specifically on his playing, but I agree that a strict Mozartian articulation wouldn't fit Dussek too much.

And he does tend to play that way. Not purely, of course, but it's like that is his natural style and he sometimes reverts a bit. Doesn't really bother me too much, I like the music and his playing quite a lot. :)

QuoteFor piano, I totally agree. Perhaps Clementi can be added to them, while I don't count Haydn, because he belongs to a previous generation. Other name to consider is Wölfl, but his importance is, in my opinion, inferior than Dussek's (but he has some remarkable works).

I have a disk of Wölfl sonatas and really, they are very good. He was once in a piano competition, pitted against Beethoven. He didn't win, but they came away quite good friends, which was not always the case with Beethoven. :D

As for Clementi, I think he is in a class of his own, not Beethoven's class, but a cut above all the others. I am hoping that this discussion will steer in his direction soon. :)

8)



----------------
Listening to:
Mendelssohn 3 4 - Chicago SO / Solti - FMB Symphony #3 in a Op 56 2nd mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 02:10:54 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 01:01:25 PM
I have a disk of Wölfl sonatas and really, they are very good. He was once in a piano competition, pitted against Beethoven. He didn't win, but they came away quite good friends, which was not always the case with Beethoven. :D

You probably own Jon Nakamtsu's recording for Harmonia Mundi, which, if a bit mechanical, is very good and is a quite reliable sample of this composer. However, the most devoted person towards Wölfl seems to be Laure Colladant, who has recorded many of the piano sonatas (played on a pianoforte). I have most of her recordings: opp. 6, 15, 28 and 33. Very good music indeed.

I have some of his other chamber works. Of particular interest: the piano trios op. 23 (led also by Colladant), and the string quartets op. 4 (Authentic Quartet in Hungaroton). They are music of their time: there are no great innovations, but the music is magnificently crafted and always very inventive.

An "unexpected highlight" of Wölfl's music are his two symphonies. There is, to my knowledge, just one recording, released by the Russian label Caro Mitis and very well played by the Pratum Integrum Orchestra. They are certainly more conventional works than Beethoven's or Eberl's works of the same period, but very interesting works nonetheless. (The Andante of the G minor symphony is a memorable movement: simple and effective, its ideas are quite Mozartian, but their treatment is Haydnesque). This CD includes a "bonus": a D minor "duo" (sonata) for piano and cello, op. 31, that crowns the disc. The repertoire for piano and cello of the classical period is particularly scarce, so it's a very welcome item in any collection, but its interest is more than anecdotic: this work is beautiful from the beginning to the end, with a dazzling finale showing unusually evident syncopations in its A subject that can't be explained but by heavy folkloric influence. A hidden treasure.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2009, 02:27:09 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 02:10:54 PM
You probably own Jon Nakamtsu's recording for Harmonia Mundi, which, if a bit mechanical, is very good and is a quite reliable sample of this composer. However, the most devoted person towards Wölfl seems to be Laure Colladant, who has recorded many of the piano sonatas (played on a pianoforte). I have most of her recordings: opp. 6, 15, 28 and 33. Very good music indeed.

Yes, I do have Nakamatsu. And I was quite surprised on receiving it, given that it is on HM, that it wasn't played on a pianoforte. :(  I have never seen Colladant, I can only suppose that this is a French label only released in France... :-\  Well, I shall have a look around for it anyway, since I really do enjoy the music I have now. :)

QuoteI have some of his other chamber works. Of particular interest: the piano trios op. 23 (led also by Colladant), and the string quartets op. 4 (Authentic Quartet in Hungaroton). They are music of their time: there are no great innovations, but the music is magnificently crafted and always very inventive.

An "unexpected highlight" of Wölfl's music are his two symphonies. There is, to my knowledge, just one recording, released by the Russian label Caro Mitis and very well played by the Pratum Integrum Orchestra. They are certainly more conventional works than Beethoven's or Eberl's works of the same period, but very interesting works nonetheless. (The Andante of the G minor symphony is a memorable movement: simple and effective, its ideas are quite Mozartian, but their treatment is Haydnesque). This CD includes a "bonus": a D minor "duo" (sonata) for piano and cello, op. 31, that crowns the disc. The repertoire for piano and cello of the classical period is particularly scarce, so it's a very welcome item in any collection, but its interest is more than anecdotic: this work is beautiful from the beginning to the end, with a dazzling finale showing unusually evident syncopations in its A subject that can't be explained but by heavy folkloric influence. A hidden treasure.

Well, this looks like something worth the hunt. Good thing the dollar is getting stronger vs the euro and pound... ;D  Thanks for that excellent info. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Mendelssohn 3 4 - Chicago SO / Solti - FMB Symphony #4 in A Op 90 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 01, 2009, 02:36:07 PM
Well, this afternoon I listened to some Dussek Piano Sonatas played by Staier & Becker, i.e. fortepiano vs. modern piano, different styles, and not the same pieces.  I did enjoy both of these performances, and was amazed at the dynamics that Staier could produce on his instrument; however, Becker did pretty much the same on the piano - bottom line - excellent discs both, different instruments, and the dynamics are purely those of Dussek - his sonatas are really much more in the early Romantic period, so don't expect an approach like that of Haydn or Mozart (although he was just 4 yrs younger than Wolfie).

Quote from: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 02:10:54 PM
You probably own Jon Nakamtsu's recording for Harmonia Mundi, which, if a bit mechanical, is very good and is a quite reliable sample of this composer. However, the most devoted person towards Wölfl seems to be Laure Colladant, who has recorded many of the piano sonatas (played on a pianoforte). I have most of her recordings: opp. 6, 15, 28 and 33. Very good music indeed.

Yes, those are the recordings that I own - but the ones by Colladant sound intriguing, just not sure 'how available' they maybe here in the USA, but will check!  Thanks for the recommendation!   :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CWNNSF23L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 02:44:51 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 01, 2009, 06:38:42 AM
Gabriel - the Dussek work on the Brilliant disc is indeed Op. 41 as you indicate above - however, I was curious about 'how many' Piano Quintets he composed (he wrote SO MUCH chamber music); in checking Wiki HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ladislaus_Dussek), this single one is all I found listed (but may have missed others?).

Dave, it's a pity that there are just a few recordings of Dussek's music around. Moreover one has to be very careful: there are "Jan Ladislav Dusík/Dussek" and "Frantisek Xaver Dusek/Dussek", who can be mistaken by their similar family names.

Quote from: SonicMan on March 01, 2009, 02:36:07 PM
Yes, those are the recordings that I own - but the ones by Colladant sound intriguing, just not sure 'how available' they maybe here in the USA, but will check!  Thanks for the recommendation!   :D

Unfortunately they are difficult to find even in France. But I wish you good luck with your research! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
So, you've listened to a lot of music. Early on, a friend turned you on to Bach, and then you discovered Beethoven and Brahms and maybe Wagner, and suddenly found Shostakovich, Bartok and then the Moderns. And along the way, you really never listened to much music from the Classical Era, with the exception of Mozart's "Jupiter" symphony, and of course, the "Requiem" was de rigeur. But then your occasional forays beyond that didn't turn out well, and now you don't really like "Classical" music. *sigh*

Clearly you aren't alone. This story can be told by any number of your friends here on the forum. It almost seems as though if one doesn't start out with "classical", one doesn't gravitate to it after listening to a lot of other genres. The reasons for this are not so hard to figure out. The rather more dense polyphony of Baroque music, the long melodic line of Romantic music, the intellectual brilliance of modern music all have a strong attraction. The simplicity, squareness, lightness and elegance of classical music (I leave off the quotes here, we all know what I mean by now :) ) don't reach out and grab the vast majority of people in the same way. And yet, these exact things are what were considered to be the strong points of the music in its own time. Symmetry and transparency were the goals. The beauty lies in setting up (preparing) the modulations, not in letting you into the emotional world of the composer. The drama comes from delaying a return to the tonic key by taking a little trip through the dominant minor when you didn't expect that at all, not in leaving for some remote area in the Circle of Fifths and not coming back at all! When Mozart exposes a theme in Eine kleine Nachtmusik, you know he is going to develop it and then recapitulate it, and the whole thing is going to sound as though he couldn't possibly have written it any other way. And this rightness and inevitability is the source of the attraction of classical music. If you listen to enough of it, you, too, will be "hooked" on it. There is no bombast, but there is infinite intricacy and subtlety. :)

If you wish to get into classical music, here are a few "listening tips":

8)

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Listening to:
Schubert: Dances for Fortepiano - Trudelies Leonhardt - D 924 Grätzer Walzer for Fortepiano
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 04, 2009, 06:51:59 PM
As usual, Gurn has raised some important considerations about listenting to music from different eras and not trying to apply prejudices from one period to the other - the 'classical period' and its transitions (i.e. early from the Baroque & later into the Romantic) are fascinating to consider, so yet on to another comparison:

A 'later' transitional composer mentioned a few posts back was Muzio Clementi (1752-1832) - a comtemporary of WA Mozart (and a famous 'competition' in the early 1780s between the 2 composers/performers in Vienna) - an interesting consideration is the performance of Clementi's Piano Sonatas on a fortepiano vs. a modern piano - personally, I think that Clementi's compositions were composed for instruments beyond those available to him @ the times, so the challenge becomes of interest!

The other day, I listen to Clementi performed by Howard Shelley on a modern piano (Vol. 1 - also own Vol. 2) - these were wonderful (the reason why I bought the 2nd volume, I guess!); the comparison was Costantino Mastroprimiano on the fortepiano, Vol. 1 on the Brillant label, a 3CD offering of the 'Viennese Sonatas', so not the same ones as Shelley - I loved both performances; the fortepaino did not do as well in the 'chorded portions' - i.e. the more dynamic banging of the keys in this transitional music just seems to come across better for me on a modern piano - this seems to be an important area of dispute in comparing these different pianos; I was reading a negative review on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Clementi-Complete-Sonatas-Vol-1/dp/B000NJM6L4/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236224702&sr=1-13) concerning the fortepiano performances - I disagreed and wrote a rebuttal (if interested, go to the link - I'm 'giradman' there) -  :D

Bottom line is that I do enjoy the 'fortepiano' but there is a transition from the classical to the romantic period in which the modern piano may become the better choice of instrument; now 'when & who' is to decide this choice is likely a personal preference - well, just a few thoughts - Dave  :)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41c-ELg8DNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C7yg0-NtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2009, 07:05:21 PM
Dave,
I really enjoy the Mastroprimiano set. I don't have the Shelley for comparison, although I do have some of his Hummel, which is contemporaneous and also on modern piano, so I can extrapolate from there. Later Clementi really does come on the cusp of modern piano (he died in 1832, and the pianos of that time were far more modern than not). I think the thing about fortepianos is that you have to really love their unique sound. If you don't, then they will lose out to modern pianos every time, unless you are enough into the subtleties to enjoy the little ornaments that are very difficult for a modern pianist to reproduce, but which can be tossed off with ease by a fortepianist. I have a modest amount of Clementi's fortepiano music, by such as Immerseel, Mastroprimiano, Khouri and Susan Alexander-Max. I also have some wonderful performances on modern piano by Vladimir Horowitz and Danielle Laval. There are no losers here, the music stands up well to either approach. I don't (and will likely never) buy into the concept that Clementi (or Beethoven for that matter) had the foresight to imagine what the piano of the future would be able to do, but I think that they wrote music which transcends the instrument. That's good enough for me. :)

8)

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Listening to:
Onslow Sextet #2 in a for Piano & Winds Op 77 4th mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 04, 2009, 09:13:56 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
  • Be adventurous. Listen to a disk of Vanhal's music alongside Haydn's. No harm comes from music that is off-the-beaten-path, honest! :)

I agree!  For Romantic-period music one might be tempted to leap right into the big names like Mahler or Brahms, but I think more people should try the music of one Franz Berwald, a Swedish composer of great character and style.  I know you're familiar with him too, Gurn!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 05, 2009, 03:02:08 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
If you wish to get into classical music, here are a few "listening tips":

  • Start with famous works by famous composers. There are reasons they are famous. Use that to your advantage.
  • Don't necessarily start with orchestral music. Solo keyboard and chamber music can be easier to get your mind around.
  • Don't compare classical music with Baroque, Romantic or Modern. It's different. Judge it on its own merits.
  • Be adventurous. Listen to a disk of Vanhal's music alongside Haydn's. No harm comes from music that is off-the-beaten-path, honest! :)

Excellent tips, Gurn. Here I add some others:

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2009, 05:48:02 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 05, 2009, 03:02:08 AM
Excellent tips, Gurn. Here I add some others:


  • Get at least a minimum acquaintance with the forms of music of the classical era, and most of all with the so-called sonata form. Many of the hidden delights of this music will suddenly jump in front of your eyes (or ears).
  • Do not get discouraged by a certain "homogeneity" in classical music. Do not forget that classical composers had - consciously or unconsciously - the idea of being building an universal language, very differently from Baroque music whose national styles were differentiated.
  • Benefit of the historical approach. Many of the main instrumental genres, as we know them now, were born during the classical period: string quartet, string quintet, keyboard trio, wind quintet, keyboard sonata, symphony. Investigate how their development came to such a successful end.
  • Do not confound clarity with conformism. Some of the most daring innovators in the history of music can be found in the classical repertoire: for instance, C.P.E. Bach, F. J. Haydn, Rejcha and Beethoven.

Excellent additions, Gabriel. And here is a note (my inferences) on your point about building a universal language. It was conscious. Here is an (rather long and) interesting quote from Blume's classic and Romantic Music" (an indispensable book, IMO):

...the rather singular doctrine of "mixed taste" represented primarily by Quantz and with some variation by Leopold Mozart and C.P.E. Bach (all in their various "Versuchen..."). According to Quantz two peoples "deserve credit for the improvement in musicaql taste in recent times, the Italians and the French...". All writers of the time distinguish emphatically between Italian, French and German musical styles. Herder still clung to this approach and even in Goethe a similar distinction is found. Italian music was praised for its expressive power, its sensuousness its tender, singing character, its wealth of inspiration; French music for its vivacity, especially in rhythm, its pleasing quality and easy accessibility - though it was censured for its dryness and its schematic cast. from far back, the Germans had inherited the advantages od solid compositional craft and instrumental virtuosity; "but of the good taste and beautiful melodies one finds, save for a few old church songs, few indications... They try to compose more artfully rather than comprehensibly or pleasingly, more for the eye than for the ear". On the other hand, Quantz grants the Germans a particular ability to "assimilate other peoples' tendencies in taste, whichever they may wish"; "they know how to make use of what is good in all sorts of foreign music". A mixing of style is therefore recommended to them as a recipe for arriving at good music "that will be accepted by many countries and recognized as good". Quantz does not hesitate to characterize such a "mixed taste" as "the present German taste".

This fit in well with widely held views. Telemann had already boasted of being able to compose in any style. And Mozart reported from Mannheim (2/7/1778 letter to Leopold) that he was "able to adopt and imitate almost all sorts and styles of composition". ...................  What they achieved was anything but a blending of styles. They were, rather, creating out of their own specifically German talent something fundamentally new.... Composers very soon realized that the purpose of their efforts could not be the coining of a new national style alongside existing national styles, or of making other national styles their own; that it was far more a matter of creating something above and beyond national styles, something of a worldwide validity, a "universal language" of music in which all peoples, without distinction, and all levels of society too, could take part - a language of humanity. This humanistic idea arose in German music simultaneously with the similarly-directed idea in German literature. Gluck wrote (in a letter to the "Mercure de France" in 2/1773) that he "wished to write a strong music that speaks to the heart, that would appeal to all peoples" and "wipe out the ridiculous differences in national music". Gluck's late style was praised (Chabagnon) as "the universal language of our continent" (De la Musique, 1785). This is the meaning, too that lies behind Haydn's famous remark "My language is understood in the whole world"...


Sorry, didn't mean to ramble, but this is an important point since the classical era gave birth to all subsequent music up to the total rejection of tonality and melody around WW I. When we call this "The Age of Enlightenment", it is no small thing, since the philosophies that arose then (Herder, Kant etc) and the revolutions, philosophical and actual, changed the course of history as we know it. And music not only went along for the ride, it greased the wheels in many cases. :)

8)


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Listening to: Jos Van Immerseel - Clementi Op 25 #5 Sonata in f# 2nd mvmt - Lento e patetico
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 07, 2009, 05:11:23 AM
I've read beginners guides that assert chamber music is the thornier listen and to go for the larger forces first. I'm not sure why.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 07:10:29 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 07, 2009, 05:11:23 AM
I've read beginners guides that assert chamber music is the thornier listen and to go for the larger forces first. I'm not sure why.

I'm not sure, Dave, on what they base their logic. It is true, chamber music is rather more intricate. But you only have a few voices, 4 or 5 usually, and I found that I was able to distinguish them and follow what they were saying far more easily than I could (and still can) in an orchestral work. If you want to follow the cello's voice through a string quartet, it is a lot easier to do (for me, at least) than following the whole section of cellos in a symphony. Although what he has to say may be a bit more complicated... but then, that's the whole point of a string quartet, so you just have to go with that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 07, 2009, 07:12:14 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 07:10:29 AM
I'm not sure, Dave, on what they base their logic. It is true, chamber music is rather more intricate. But you only have a few voices, 4 or 5 usually, and I found that I was able to distinguish them and follow what they were saying far more easily than I could (and still can) in an orchestral work. If you want to follow the cello's voice through a string quartet, it is a lot easier to do (for me, at least) than following the whole section of cellos in a symphony. Although what he has to say may be a bit more complicated... but then, that's the whole point of a string quartet, so you just have to go with that. :)

Must be an assumption that newbies are more used to symphonic music and would be scared away by a quartet. Perhaps chamber music also has a reputation as being stuffier.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 07:18:47 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 07, 2009, 07:12:14 AM
Must be an assumption that newbies are more used to symphonic music and would be scared away by a quartet. Perhaps chamber music also has a reputation as being stuffier.

You're probably right on both counts, but IMO, chamber music can also be far more unbuttoned than orchestral music (take Haydn's SQ's, for example). And I suppose that more people start with symphonies, although in my case it was concertos, violin concertos specifically, and they present their own problems when it comes to picking out structure. I think I was probably fortunate to discover violin sonatas very early on, and they not only provided excellent music, but a great opportunity to get a feel for how the parts came together to make a whole work. From there, it was a short step to piano trios and string quartets... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 07, 2009, 11:35:20 AM
I dunno, there's just something with large orchestral pieces that appeals so directly to our modern ears... Can't place my finger on it.  Maybe it's because they're generally a composer's most thought-out and elaborate works?  Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when people think "Classical" music they think "symphony?"  Or maybe people nowadays are more familiar with orchestral music via movies, so they already feel somewhat familiar with it...  ???  I started out what might be considered "textbook" style: Symphonies --> Concerti --> Chamber Music --> Dramatic/Choral works --> Opera --> Songs.  To this day when I try out a new composer I - out of habit - try their orchestral pieces first.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 07, 2009, 11:35:20 AM
I dunno, there's just something with large orchestral pieces that appeals so directly to our modern ears... Can't place my finger on it.  Maybe it's because they're generally a composer's most thought-out and elaborate works?  Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when people think "Classical" music they think "symphony?"  Or maybe people nowadays are more familiar with orchestral music via movies, so they already feel somewhat familiar with it...  ???  I started out what might be considered "textbook" style: Symphonies --> Concerti --> Chamber Music --> Dramatic/Choral works --> Opera --> Songs.  To this day when I try out a new composer I - out of habit - try their orchestral pieces first.

Well, maybe it is all what we're used to. I round up the symphonies lastly (of the purely instrumental works) without fail. Not even consciously, AFAIK. For me it is chamber > keyboard > concerti > symphonies > vocal. I think it has to do with intimacy, getting to know the composer on a personal level before moving on to the big, public works. :-\

8)

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Listening to:
Lachner String Quartets - Rodin Quartet - Lachner Op 077 String Quartet #3 in Eb 4th mvmt - Allegro vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 01:11:05 PM
In keeping with the idea of listening to chamber and keyboard works first, I would like to start a series on different classical composers which presents a list of works by each which I consider to be good places to acquaint yourself with that composer. I will only recommend works, not performances. If you have favorite performers, then by all means choose their recording. No matter that someone else doesn't think highly of it, or even if it is the single most recommended disk in the world. The point is getting to hear the music. :)  In addition, I will try to list things in an order from "good place to start" through "quite advanced". Depending on your personal tastes, your mileage may vary... :)

8)

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Listening to:
Lachner String Quartets - Rodin Quartet - Lachner Op 120 String Quartet #4 in d 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro non troppo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 01:20:38 PM
A recommended list of works: Mozart

The keyboard sonatas
The later violin sonatas
The 6 piano trios
The "Haydn" String Quartets
The serenades and divertimentos for winds
The last 10 Piano Concertos
The Violin Concertos
The Requiem
The last 6 symphonies
The 3 Da Ponti Operas and "The Magic Flute"

All of these works are readily available in many good recordings. They will provide a solid basis for branching out into the many more masterworks that Mozart left for us. Of course, you can start with the operas too if you want, nothing written in stone here! But if you become familiar with the works in this list, you will then know what to expect in whichever particular genre of Mozart that appeals to you. :)

8)


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Listening to:
Lachner String Quartets - Rodin Quartet - Lachner Op 120 String Quartet #4 in d 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro non troppo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 07, 2009, 02:37:47 PM
I will collaborate with the series, Gurn, if you're not against. ;) I will remark personal favourites that, in my opinion, should be useful as "first introduction" to the composer.

A recommended list of works: Krommer/Kramář (1759-1831)


Yes, Krommer wrote delightfully for wind instruments! This list considers - naturally - just recorded works and it could - naturally - be extended or modified by the discovery of other works.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 07, 2009, 02:37:47 PM
I will collaborate with the series, Gurn, if you're not against. ;) I will remark personal favourites that, in my opinion, should be useful as "first introduction" to the composer.

A recommended list of works: Krommer/Kramář (1759-1831)


  • Oboe concerto in F major, op. 37
  • Symphony in D major, op. 40
  • Oboe concerto in F major, op. 52
  • Partita for winds in F major, op. 57
  • Partita for winds in E flat major, op. 71
  • Harmonie for winds in C major, op. 76
  • Clarinet concerto in E minor, op. 86
  • Concerto for two clarinets in E flat major, op. 91
  • Flute quartet in D major, op. 93
  • Clarinet quintet in B flat major, op. 95
  • String trio in F major, op. 96
  • Flute quintet in G major, op. 101
  • Symphony in C minor, op. 102

Yes, Krommer wrote delightfully for wind instruments! This list considers - naturally - just recorded works and it could - naturally - be extended or modified by the discovery of other works.

Against? I'm delighted. I already see a few new (to me) works to go hunting for, and that's the point, after all. I will also add the Op 46 Bassoon Quartets (Bassoon and String Trio) to your list, since they are exceptionally nice, and good representatives of a particularly Classical genre.

8)

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Listening to:
BIBER : Violin Sonatas - Andrew Manze (Disc 1) - Romanesca - Nachtigal (Nightingale) - Sonata Representativa
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2009, 04:46:47 PM
Since Jan Dussek was under discussion a few pages back in this thread, today I received a wonderful Harp & Fortepiano disc in the mail - quite interesting listening - posted first in the Dussek Tread, but thought that a repeat here would be of interest - this harpist is indeed special - check out her link below in the quote -  :)

QuoteJust acquired a Dussek disc recommended highly by another GMG member:

Grand Desserts - World of Jan Ladislav Dussek - the title & the cover art are completely unrevealing unfortunately, but a series of CDs devoted to this era and played on period instruments.

Basically, harp music of Dussek, both solo but most w/ fortepiano - performers are Masumi Nagasawa & Richard Egarr - Nagasawa plays a single-action original harp from 1815 & Egarr an original fortepiano from 1804; the sound the the harp is wonderful, much more delicate than a modern concert harp (but more forceful that a Celtic variety, that my wife plays) - Nagasawa has an excellent Website HERE (http://www.masuminagasawa.com/cdseries/page15/page15.html) which has plenty of information of these period harps and the 'gourmet' series of recordings she is doing - take a look!  :D

P.S. Gurn Alert - think that this disc will be on your 'radar screen' (of course, if not already owned!) -  ;)  Dave


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/486786325_mznuU-M.jpg)

(http://www.masuminagasawa.com/cdseries/page15/files/masumirichard.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 07, 2009, 04:46:47 PM
Since Jan Dussek was under discussion a few pages back in this thread, today I received a wonderful Harp & Fortepiano disc in the mail - quite interesting listening - posted first in the Dussek Tread, but thought that a repeat here would be of interest - this harpist is indeed special - check out her link below in the quote -  :)


Ah, thanks for that, Dave. I know the harp is a favorite of yours, and I am hoping to make it one of mine too. Dussek, Spohr, Kraus and a few others wrote nice music for harp, not to mention the famous Mozart Flute and Harp Concerto. I was scratching my head over the Kraus just this evening. It might be my first choice, but the Dussek could well be in the same shopping cart... :)

8)

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Listening to: Romanesca - RV 755 Sonata in D for Violin & Continuuo 1st mvmt - Preludio: Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: jhar26 on March 08, 2009, 03:58:24 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 10:07:29 AM
But he did continue to use some Mannheim standard devices, like the "Mannheim Rocket" which the French called the premiére coup d'archet. It shows up in several of his later works, and still pleases today. :)

8)
What's the "Mannheim rocket"? Is that when the orchestra seemingly from nowhere and unexpected builds towards a very loud crescendo?

I'm only on page two, but the "classical corner" is a great idea for a thread since so many interesting composers from this era are totally overshadowed by the holy trinity of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. Well done, Gurn.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2009, 04:06:53 AM
Quote from: jhar26 on March 08, 2009, 03:58:24 AM
What's the "Mannheim rocket"? Is that when the orchestra seemingly from nowhere and unexpected builds towards a very loud crescendo?

I'm only on page two, but the "classical corner" is a great idea for a thread since so many interesting composers from this era are totally overshadowed by the holy trinity of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. Well done, Gurn.

Yes, that quite close, it is a long arpeggio/crescendo in the orchestra. It was a surprising development in its time because it requires good ensemble playing by the orchestra, which was virtually unknown before Stamitz' tenure in Mannheim. I guess he was the Toscanini of his time... :)

I am delighted that you joined us here, and hope you will feel free to contribute. I agree with you, this was long overdue. Even though the "Holy Trinity" are my 3 favorite composers, they didn't spring from nowhere, and it's interesting to see who their contemporaries were. :)

8)

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Listening to:
Mendelssohn -  - Symphony #4 in A, Op. 90, "Italian": IV. Saltarello (Presto)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 08, 2009, 04:12:27 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 04:29:03 PM
Against? I'm delighted. I already see a few new (to me) works to go hunting for, and that's the point, after all. I will also add the Op 46 Bassoon Quartets (Bassoon and String Trio) to your list, since they are exceptionally nice, and good representatives of a particularly Classical genre.

Thanks, Gurn! :)

And as I don't know op. 46, they will increase the suggested repertoire. I will edit the previous list to add them.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 08, 2009, 05:28:11 AM
A recommended list of works: Johann Nepomuk Hummel (1778-1837)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 08, 2009, 06:50:08 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2009, 01:20:38 PM
A recommended list of works: Mozart

The keyboard sonatas
The later violin sonatas
The 6 piano trios
The "Haydn" String Quartets
The serenades and divertimentos for winds
The last 10 Piano Concertos
The Violin Concertos
The Requiem
The last 6 symphonies
The 3 Da Ponti Operas and "The Magic Flute"
I might add to that list K. 427, the "Great Mass."  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: jhar26 on March 08, 2009, 10:49:18 AM
An opera recording I like is Jordi Savall's recording of "Una Cosa Rara" from Vicent Martin i Soler which was a very popular work at the time. Now it's best known because Mozart quotes one of it's tunes in the banquet scene at the end of Don Giovanni. But it's a lovely work in my opinion - well worth hearing.

(http://www.opera-collection.net/images/martinysolerv/cosarara.jpg)

Sorry for the big picture. I didn't find one of more appropriate dimensions.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2009, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: jhar26 on March 08, 2009, 10:49:18 AM
An opera recording I like is Jordi Savall's recording of "Una Cosa Rara" from Vicent Martin i Soler which was a very popular work at the time. Now it's best known because Mozart quotes one of it's tunes in the banquet scene at the end of Don Giovanni. But it's a lovely work in my opinion - well worth hearing.

(http://www.opera-collection.net/images/martinysolerv/cosarara.jpg)

Sorry for the big picture. I didn't find one of more appropriate dimensions.



I have heard much about this opera. The libretto is by Da Ponti too, like "Figaro", the opera which it replaced on the stage in Vienna (its other claim to fame). I have heard elsewhere that it is very good, I would love to hear it. :)
Thanks,

8)

PS - If you quote my post just to look, you can see how I made the picture a little smaller. It's so easy, I can do it! :D


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Listening to:
Accademia I Filarmonici-Martini-Fornaciari - RV.262 Concerto for Violin in Eb-3rd mvmt-Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2009, 11:06:26 AM
Oops, forgot, it won't show in the quote. Anyway, when you have the image set, go to the first [ img ] brackets and change it to [ img height=xxx ] and it will automatically proportion itself.

8)


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Listening to:
Accademia I Filarmonici-Martini-Fornaciari - RV.285 Concerto for Violin in F-2nd mvmt-Grave-Adagio-Grave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: jhar26 on March 08, 2009, 11:44:49 AM
Ok, thanks for the tip, Gurn.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 08, 2009, 02:48:04 PM
Quote from: jhar26 on March 08, 2009, 10:49:18 AM
An opera recording I like is Jordi Savall's recording of "Una Cosa Rara" from Vicent Martin i Soler which was a very popular work at the time. Now it's best known because Mozart quotes one of it's tunes in the banquet scene at the end of Don Giovanni. But it's a lovely work in my opinion - well worth hearing.

I have that recording, but I haven't listened to it for a long time. I also have La Capricciosa Corretta (Naïve recording) by Martín y Soler. My general impression about them was that there was great music, but there was not enough "breath" to make it last for a long time, so I felt that it was too short. In general, complaining about a work for being "too short" should be almost a compliment. In this case, it is not. But perhaps if I listened it now, after some years, I could change my opinion. As I don't have the CD here in Paris, my curiosity will have to wait for a while. (But they are -undoubtedly- enjoyable works worth exploring).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 08, 2009, 03:11:08 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 07, 2009, 02:37:47 PM
I will collaborate with the series, Gurn, if you're not against. ;) I will remark personal favourites that, in my opinion, should be useful as "first introduction" to the composer.

A recommended list of works: Krommer/Kramář (1759-1831)


  • Oboe concerto in F major, op. 37
  • Symphony in D major, op. 40
  • Bassoon quartets in B flat major and E flat major, op. 46
  • Oboe concerto in F major, op. 52
  • Partita for winds in F major, op. 57
  • Partita for winds in E flat major, op. 71
  • Harmonie for winds in C major, op. 76
  • Clarinet concerto in E minor, op. 86
  • Concerto for two clarinets in E flat major, op. 91
  • Flute quartet in D major, op. 93
  • Clarinet quintet in B flat major, op. 95
  • String trio in F major, op. 96
  • Flute quintet in G major, op. 101
  • Symphony in C minor, op. 102

Gabriel - I think that Gurn & I have found yet another 'soul mate' in this period of music!  ;D

I have most of the works listed above - love the wind chamber works the best! Do not own any of the Symphonies - most of the CDs that I own are on the CPO and Naxos labels - will add the bassoon works & symphonies to my 'wish list' - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2009, 04:05:09 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 08, 2009, 03:11:08 PM
Gabriel - I think that Gurn & I have found yet another 'soul mate' in this period of music!  ;D

I have most of the works listed above - love the wind chamber works the best! Do not own any of the Symphonies - most of the CDs that I own are on the CPO and Naxos labels - will add the bassoon works & symphonies to my 'wish list' - Dave  :D

Dave, this is the symphony disk that I have. As with all the disks in htis series, this is well-played with good SQ, and the works themselves are quite nice. You'll not be disappointed. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61EE8XG22RL._SS400_.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: jhar26 on March 08, 2009, 04:26:28 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 08, 2009, 02:48:04 PM
I have that recording, but I haven't listened to it for a long time. I also have La Capricciosa Corretta (Naïve recording) by Martín y Soler. My general impression about them was that there was great music, but there was not enough "breath" to make it last for a long time, so I felt that it was too short. In general, complaining about a work for being "too short" should be almost a compliment. In this case, it is not. But perhaps if I listened it now, after some years, I could change my opinion. As I don't have the CD here in Paris, my curiosity will have to wait for a while. (But they are -undoubtedly- enjoyable works worth exploring).
Is there a libretto (with English translation) included with that La Capricciosa Corretta recording?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on March 08, 2009, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: jhar26 on March 08, 2009, 04:26:28 PM
Is there a libretto (with English translation) included with that La Capricciosa Corretta recording?

Absolutely.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WyphmvjUL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: jhar26 on March 09, 2009, 01:29:40 AM
Quote from: Que on March 08, 2009, 11:06:36 PM
Absolutely.

Q
Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 09, 2009, 03:01:34 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2009, 04:05:09 PM
Dave, this is the symphony disk that I have. As with all the disks in htis series, this is well-played with good SQ, and the works themselves are quite nice. You'll not be disappointed. :)

To my knowledge, there is just one other Krommer symphony recorded: op. 12, in F major. The recording is Czech (Studio Matous): http://www.matous.cz/detail.php?id=NESL%20003. It is a lighter work, but I'm sure any lover of Krommer's music will enjoy it from the beginning to the end. (So, Dave, think about it! ;))

Quote from: SonicMan on March 08, 2009, 03:11:08 PM
Gabriel - I think that Gurn & I have found yet another 'soul mate' in this period of music!  ;D

Well, you see! "The Classical Association"! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on March 09, 2009, 04:42:33 AM
I've established with Gurn that this thread is sorely lacking in the Polish composers department :o so I'll mention some of the recordings I'm aware of. It seems there are about 20 composers worth mentioning, though I have to admit I know very little about many of them so don't expect detailed descriptions of their music.

Jan Tomasz Żebrowski (18th c.)
Jan Engel (?-1778)
Marcin Józef Żebrowski (1710-1780)
Maciej Kamieński (1734-1821)
Bazyli Bohdanowicz (1740-1817)
Józef Zajdler (1744-1806)
Jan Dawid Holland (1746-1827)
Jan Stefani (1746-1829)
Antoni Milwid (1755-1837)
Jan Wański (1756-1830)
Wojciech Dankowski (1760-1836)
Feliks Janiewicz (1762-1848)
Michał Ogiński (1765-1833)
Józef Elsner (1769-1854)
Antoni Radziwiłł (1775-1833)
Franciszek Lessel (1780-1838)
Karol Kurpiński (1785-1857)
Maria Szymanowska (1789-1831)
Karol Lipiński (1790-1861)
Ignacy Dobrzyński (1807-1867)

Another name worth mentioning, though the composer is not Polish, is Amando Ivančić (1727-1762?1790?). Sometimes he's also referred to as
Amandus or Amand Ivanschiz or Ivantschiz or Ivantsitz or Ivancsics or Ivanschutz or Ivancic or Ivansic. Phew! He was born in Croatia. He was an extremely prolific composer, wrote masses, litanies, motets, oratorios, symphonies, divertimenti, sonatas, trios, arias etc. and was extremely popular in the 18th century in areas of Central Europe which today belong to Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Germany and Austria. He was most active in the years 1755-1770 (assuming that he was still alive after 1762 ::)). His choral writing contains more baroque elements than his instrumental pieces, which are definitely early classical (for instance, he uses the viola in his trio sonatas; also, he's considered one of the main founders of the early classical symphony).

Later I'll post more about the recordings of music by him and the other composers just mentioned. At the moment I have to run. ;D

Anyone else know any of this music?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on March 09, 2009, 08:49:14 AM
Which other early classical period symphonists are on the same (IMO very high) level of inspiration as William Boyce? I am only familiar with CPE Bach, who I enjoy, but find a little less engaging.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 09, 2009, 11:14:07 AM
Quote from: Maciek on March 09, 2009, 04:42:33 AM
Anyone else know any of this music?

I know some music from three of the composers listed: Kurpiński, Elsner and Lessel. In my very limited knowledge of Polish music from the classicism, I can recommend two works. First, Karol Kurpiński's overture to Zamek na Czorsztynie: it is a winner. Not a "great" work, but it is very beautifully scored and has some unforgettable ideas (I have two recordings of it: Spering and Borowicz). The other one is Franciszek Lessel's piano concerto in C major op. 14, a lyrical, delicate yet consistent work; in its simplicity, it has a Fieldian flavour, particularly in the undescribably beautiful Adagio. This movement alone would justify the purchase.

Fortunately for interested GMGers, the Borowicz recording I wrote about includes both recommended works from Lessel and Kurpiński. It brings also a couple more works, all highly enjoyable. Both works could be better recorded, but it is a competent recording nonetheless. (In fact, Kurpiński's overture by Spering is a better recording; he makes even the first chord meaningful, but you have to listen to it to understand what I mean. It is included in an Opus 111 CD called Chopin: the 1830 Warsaw concert).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2009, 07:07:14 AM
Georg Benda (1722-1795) - Keyboard Sonatas w/ Sylvia Georgieva on harpsichord - just received this 4-CD set of 17 keyboard sonatas (he wrote around 50 or so) composed from 1757 and onward - a Que recommendation!

Benda was part of a 'family' of musicians/composers of the same last name; his 'given' name is on the cover of the set shown below; short biography of him on the Naxos Site HERE (http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/Georg_Benda/25980.htm); quoted immediately below is the last part of his bio summarizing his list of compositions; much needs to be rediscovered, re-published, and recorded - I have just one other disc, Symphonies on the Naxos label.

His keyboard works as evident by these recordings almost have a 'Janus' way about them, i.e. looking back to the late Baroque/Galant styles (and played on the harpsichord), but also anticipating the later part of the 18th century, kind of like CPE Bach into Mozart in style.  Recently, I've acquired a lot of harpsichord music but have been careful in listening to the opinions of others here - not always my favorite instrument, but Georgieva plays these works on two different instruments just beautifully; the recorded sound is phenomenal (and much of the 'extra little noises' often heard on these older keyboard instruments is totally absent) - quite nice!  :D

QuoteHis compositions include some half dozen other stage works, Singspiel, melodramas and a children's operetta, a quantity of church music and vocal compositions, keyboard sonatas and sonatinas and some thirty symphonies, ten harpsichord concertos and eleven violin concertos.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/488431119_UYFFg-M.jpg)  (http://www.christianbenda.com/heritage4.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Harry on March 10, 2009, 07:27:09 AM
As soon as the four cd box of Benda is available again in my country for the low price Que paid, I will buy it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on March 10, 2009, 08:48:12 AM
Lovely thread. A big THANK YOU to Gurn and all other contributors.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 10, 2009, 09:54:10 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 10, 2009, 07:07:14 AM
Georg Benda (1722-1795) - Keyboard Sonatas w/ Sylvia Georgieva on harpsichord - just received this 4-CD set of 17 keyboard sonatas (he wrote around 50 or so) composed from 1757 and onward - a Que recommendation!

Benda was part of a 'family' of musicians/composers of the same last name; his 'given' name is on the cover of the set shown below; short biography of him on the Naxos Site HERE (http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/Georg_Benda/25980.htm); quoted immediately below is the last part of his bio summarizing his list of compositions; much needs to be rediscovered, re-published, and recorded - I have just one other disc, Symphonies on the Naxos label.

His keyboard works as evident by these recordings almost have a 'Janus' way about them, i.e. looking back to the late Baroque/Galant styles (and played on the harpsichord), but also anticipating the later part of the 18th century, kind of like CPE Bach into Mozart in style.  Recently, I've acquired a lot of harpsichord music but have been careful in listening to the opinions of others here - not always my favorite instrument, but Georgieva plays these works on two different instruments just beautifully; the recorded sound is phenomenal (and much of the 'extra little noises' often heard on these older keyboard instruments is totally absent) - quite nice!  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/488431119_UYFFg-M.jpg)  (http://www.christianbenda.com/heritage4.jpg)

Those recordings by Georgieva are really beautiful, Dave.

It's possible to hear a brief example on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knvj_pNsRpY



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 10:41:00 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 10, 2009, 08:48:12 AM
Lovely thread. A big THANK YOU to Gurn and all other contributors.

Thanks. Hope you feel inspired to join us and let us know what you think of this period in music. :)

Quote from: SonicMan on March 10, 2009, 07:07:14 AM
Georg Benda (1722-1795) - Keyboard Sonatas w/ Sylvia Georgieva on harpsichord - just received this 4-CD set of 17 keyboard sonatas (he wrote around 50 or so) composed from 1757 and onward - a Que recommendation!

Benda was part of a 'family' of musicians/composers of the same last name; his 'given' name is on the cover of the set shown below; short biography of him on the Naxos Site HERE (http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/Georg_Benda/25980.htm); quoted immediately below is the last part of his bio summarizing his list of compositions; much needs to be rediscovered, re-published, and recorded - I have just one other disc, Symphonies on the Naxos label.

His keyboard works as evident by these recordings almost have a 'Janus' way about them, i.e. looking back to the late Baroque/Galant styles (and played on the harpsichord), but also anticipating the later part of the 18th century, kind of like CPE Bach into Mozart in style.  Recently, I've acquired a lot of harpsichord music but have been careful in listening to the opinions of others here - not always my favorite instrument, but Georgieva plays these works on two different instruments just beautifully; the recorded sound is phenomenal (and much of the 'extra little noises' often heard on these older keyboard instruments is totally absent) - quite nice!  :D

Thanks much for this info, Dave. I've been looking for some Benda solo keyboard works for a couple of years now, and only have a few sonatinas (Op 5, IIRC, and lovely little things). Of course, I've been picky about the instrument, but then, a harpsichord is probably more authentic anyway. FYI, the Benda Family Musicians are still active today, with an unbroken family musical tradition stretching back over 250 years. Frankly, I'm impressed by that. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on March 10, 2009, 10:57:02 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 10, 2009, 09:54:10 AM
Those recordings by Georgieva are really beautiful, Dave.

It's possible to hear a brief example on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knvj_pNsRpY

Great find! :) And glad you like it, Dave - this set really got me into the "Classicals"! :)

I believe we can do this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/knvj_pNsRpY

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2009, 12:44:44 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 10, 2009, 09:54:10 AM
Those recordings by Georgieva are really beautiful, Dave.


Antoine - agree completely! - for those who may be interested in this 4-CD set, the other day I found the box being offered by BRO HERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=benda&filter=all) for $24 + their usualy S/H - a steal for those in the USA; my set was from Amazon UK and cost a little more, but my order had already been placed -   :D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 10:41:00 AM

Thanks much for this info, Dave. I've been looking for some Benda solo keyboard works for a couple of years now, and only have a few sonatinas (Op 5, IIRC, and lovely little things). Of course, I've been picky about the instrument, but then, a harpsichord is probably more authentic anyway. FYI, the Benda Family Musicians are still active today, with an unbroken family musical tradition stretching back over 250 years. Frankly, I'm impressed by that. :)


Gurn - I had read that a while back; amazing how some of these families (Bach clan another example in JS's day & before) produced these clusters of musicians and composers!

Actually, I was wrong about the number of Benda discs owned - did some re-arranging the other day and misplaced a few; two others shown below of keyboard works (solo & concertos) - will need to look at the solo CD to see which sonatas might overlap? Sorry -  :-[ :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/352859716_QDF87-L.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/356171555_S4Fo8-L.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on March 10, 2009, 12:54:51 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 10:41:00 AMHope you feel inspired to join us and let us know what you think of this period in music. :)
Well, it was my first concious musical experience: "-Dad, what's that?!" It was mono, LvB 7, 3rd mvt, real loud. I was six.

I must admit that I haven't  aquired very much outside the three greats. Some Boccerini quintets, a CPE Bach disk (he's in, right?), some cello pieces for the King of Prussia (they should fit). Classical is still my favourite period, even if I've gradually expanded from there.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 10, 2009, 12:56:23 PM
Quote from: Valentino on March 10, 2009, 12:54:51 PM
I must admit that I haven't  aquired very much outside the three greats

Dittersdorf, Elgar and Glazunov?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 10, 2009, 01:34:05 PM
Quote from: Valentino on March 10, 2009, 12:54:51 PM
a CPE Bach disk (he's in, right?)

I think so!  I recently purchased a disc of some of his cello concerti & symphonies as performed by Anner Bylsma and the OAE and absolutely adore it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21J5JCHF33L._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/CPE-Bach-Symphonies-Concertos-Leonhardt/dp/B00004TQQL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236720650&sr=1-1)

I think J.C. is also worth checking out...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419NPWE6SXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Symphonies-Concertos-Alpermann-Hungebuth/dp/B0001BBSDG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236720602&sr=1-1)

Interestingly, I think you can hear their father's influence!  :)

While we're on this topic, I'd like to get people's impressions of Spanish composer Juan Arriaga.  Here's what I have of him...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OO51Ee2CL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Arriaga-String-Quartets/dp/B000BK53EC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236720988&sr=1-2)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hdVHch4yL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001IJYF6W/ref=sr_f2_album_8?ie=UTF8&child=B001IJXF2C&qid=1236721053&sr=102-8)

Does this composer have the thumbs-up from the Great Gurn?  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on March 10, 2009, 01:37:57 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 10, 2009, 07:07:14 AM
Georg Benda (1722-1795) - Keyboard Sonatas w/ Sylvia Georgieva on harpsichord - just received this 4-CD set of 17 keyboard sonatas (he wrote around 50 or so) composed from 1757 and onward

Dave, I was puzzled by squaring the number of 50 that you mentioned with the claim with this set as giving the "complete" sonatas. The answer after seem googling seems to be that he did write 17 (18) sonatas, all included in this set, but also 35 sonatinas! :) (What's the difference between these terms? Gurn?)

BTW a nice Georg Benda discography to be found HERE (http://www.newolde.com/benda_georg.htm).

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 10, 2009, 01:38:31 PM
Jiří Antonín Benda is one of the great innovators in Classicism: he is father to another musical form, the melodrama, which essentially is music to accompany a spoken text. There are recordings to Ariadne auf Naxos, Medea and Pygmalion, his great creations in this genre.

Beethoven produced excellent examples of melodrama: for instance, in Fidelio, and (probably the most remarkable I know), the final spoken scene in Egmont.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 01:46:57 PM
Quote from: Que on March 10, 2009, 01:37:57 PM
Dave, I was puzzled by squaring the number of 50 that you mentioned with the claim with this set as giving the "complete" sonatas. The answer after seem googling seems to be that he did write 17 (18) sonatas, all included in this set, but also 35 sonatinas! :) (What's the difference between these terms? Gurn?)

BTW a nice Georg Benda discography to be found HERE (http://www.newolde.com/benda_georg.htm).

Q

Thanks for the link, Q, I'll check it out this evening. :)

sonatina n. A sonata having shorter movements and often less technically demanding than the typical sonata. 

Hard to beat the definition for simplicity. Note the modifier "often". Some sonatinas are not particularly less technically demanding, just shorter in all their parts. Clementi springs to mind... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on March 10, 2009, 01:48:04 PM
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 10, 2009, 12:56:23 PM
Glazunov?
Didn't he excel in emtying bottles?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 10, 2009, 02:39:56 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 10, 2009, 01:34:05 PM
While we're on this topic, I'd like to get people's impressions of Spanish composer Juan Arriaga.  Here's what I have of him...

Juan Crisóstomo de Arriaga died really very young (20 years old) and yet he produced some works to assure him a place (and a very fine one indeed) in musical history. His three string quartets are excellent and have been widely recorded. But his best work is, to me, his extraordinary symphony: the pathos of the fourth movement, with its subtle Spanish reminescences, is simply unforgettable. The dramatic outbursts of the first movement are also memorable: it's like listening to a synthesis between a Sturm und Drang symphony by Haydn and the thematic contrasts of a symphony by Mozart, but composed half a century later. Great music.

For interested GMGers, to collect his essential works should not be a very expensive task. Paul Dombrecht has recorded for Fuga Libera 2 CDs in the last years: one contains the orchestral works (besides the symphony, the overtures op. 1 and op. 20, and the overture to the (lost) opera Los esclavos felices); the other one contains vocal works, both secular and religious. I recommend them completely: the performances are vibrant, the sound is pure as it can be. And as the string quartets fill another CD, you can get a very representative sample of Arriaga's production in 3 CDs (for precise recordings of the quartets, I'm sure there will be other members who know more versions than I know).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2009, 03:02:50 PM
Quote from: Que on March 10, 2009, 01:37:57 PM
Dave, I was puzzled by squaring the number of 50 that you mentioned with the claim with this set as giving the "complete" sonatas. The answer after seem googling seems to be that he did write 17 (18) sonatas, all included in this set, but also 35 sonatinas! :) (What's the difference between these terms? Gurn?)

BTW a nice Georg Benda discography to be found HERE (http://www.newolde.com/benda_georg.htm).

Q - thanks for the above information and the link; I just 'lumped' them together, I guess - sorry for any confusion; the description in the booklet notes w/ the Georgieva set is "He left some fifty sonatas and sonatinas for keyboard in a style that is often....."; I assumed that 'sonatina' was just a piece that was likely shorter and possibly simpler (perhaps, depending on the audience performing the works?); interestingly from your link, the Mozarts subscribed to these Benda works -  :)

Gurn's statement about the Benda family still being around was intriguing - just ordered the other volume of his Sinfonias on Naxos; the conductor of the Prague Cham Orch is 'Christian Benda', a descendent!   8)

At home now and checking out that other disc I own of the sonatas, i.e. performed by Andras Szepes, also on harpsichord (and shown several posts back) - these are labeled as 'sonatas' w/ various keys, and in () the term Sammlung I to VI w/ dates from 1780 to c. 1787.  Also from the Georgieva notes, the sonatas from No. 7 and on were from the same years w/ matching keys (although the movement descriptions vary) - bottom line, is that Benda composed 17 Keyboard Sonatas, actually 18 w/ one being a 'variant', and all are on the 4-CD set, and 6 of the same latter ones from the 1780s are also on the Szepes disc; so, do I need that single CD?  Will be of interest to play each and compare - Dave 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 05:11:32 PM
Quote from: Que on March 10, 2009, 01:37:57 PM
Dave, I was puzzled by squaring the number of 50 that you mentioned with the claim with this set as giving the "complete" sonatas. The answer after seem googling seems to be that he did write 17 (18) sonatas, all included in this set, but also 35 sonatinas! :) (What's the difference between these terms? Gurn?)

BTW a nice Georg Benda discography to be found HERE (http://www.newolde.com/benda_georg.htm).

Q

Well, thanks, Q, I used your handy little link to locate and purchase this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dvvq2S71L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

It is very true that these were probably written especially for the harpsichord, but you know, I am a fortepiano man from the first, and especially with homophonic music. Can't beat Bach on a harpsichord, but... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2009, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 05:11:32 PM
Well, thanks, Q, I used your handy little link to locate and purchase this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dvvq2S71L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

It is very true that these were probably written especially for the harpsichord, but you know, I am a fortepiano man from the first, and especially with homophonic music. Can't beat Bach on a harpsichord, but... :)

Gurn - I would strongly encourage that BRO purchase (if still available) - I've never been a great harpsichord 'man' but these are quite enjoyable, and you get all of the Sonatas - now I don't need any more of the sonatas, but are there any offerings of the Sonatinas (and if so, are they worth owning, being likely written for 'beginners' maybe?) - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 05:46:37 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 10, 2009, 05:31:45 PM
Gurn - I would strongly encourage that BRO purchase (if still available) - I've never been a great harpsichord 'man' but these are quite enjoyable, and you get all of the Sonatas - now I don't need any more of the sonatas, but are there any offerings of the Sonatinas (and if so, are they worth owning, being likely written for 'beginners' maybe?) - Dave  :D

Well, I just sent in a BRO order yesterday, so I needed to hold off a bit... :-\  However, one of my purchases is one of those Wölfl/Colladant disks that we discussed earlier, so that was a nice little acquisition. The Benda I bought as a download, so no waiting, it will be here in another 15 minutes or so... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 05:50:56 PM
You might try Q's link, it has some really nice disks listed. Meanwhile, I got 2 of the sonatinas on this lovely little disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z8G3R26QL._SS500_.jpg)

which is available even new on Amazon for $12.95, and used for half that. It has works by Mozart, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, Johann Christian Bach, Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, Georg Anton (Jiri Antonin) Benda and Frantisek Xaver Dussek on it. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 06:37:04 PM
What's the proper keyboard instrument for classical sonatas?

Always a point of contention among period instrument enthusiasts. Just like with nearly everything else to do with music, there is no hard and fast date when a transition took place. Music that was unquestionably written for the fortepiano exists from as early as 1765. Boccherini (a string man, of all people!) was the first to publish accompanied sonatas that stated on the cover page "6 Sonatas for Fortepiano & Violin - Op V" in Paris in 1767. It goes without saying that he was trying to impress a lady (the dedicatee was a prominent fortepianist in the City). And also in Paris, Johann Eckard arrived a few years earlier (1761) as a fortepiano salesman for Steiner and wrote a series of sonatas for the fortepiano. However, that doesn't mean that the day of the clavicembalo (harpsichord) was over. Obviously, not everyone could afford to immediately throw out their old instruments and buy new. So in the interest of selling sheet music, publishers continued even into Beethoven's time to put on the front "For the Pianoforte or Harpsichord". However, it isn't as difficult as all that to tell what was what. A dead giveaway was the use of dynamic markings, especially crescendos and decrescendos, but also pp and fff and the like. Why a giveaway? Well, harpsichords couldn't follow those markings. They played in virtually the same dynamic all the time because they relied on plucking of the strings. It's true that different registers could produce different volume levels, but that doesn't help much with a big, arpeggiated crescendo! :)

It is thought that Mozart first encountered a fortepiano in <>1772, and probably had one in his hands by 1775. So that date is used (albeit tentatively) for Mozart's music, anyway. Any keyboard music post 1775 is probably piano music. Other composers are not so well documented, so it takes reading the original score (publishers added the markings later on, so only the original will do) to find the dynamics. A bit more difficult.

Oh, and let's not overlook the fact that many, many composers spent the long evenings in their rooms with the clavichord, and a lot of solo works are written just for it. If you haven't heard a clavichord, it's way past time... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2009, 07:07:45 PM
Gurn - nice post above about keyboard instrumentation in this fascinating 18th century.  Of course, Cristofori HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeo_Cristofori) is credited w/ the invention of the piano, i.e. an instrument that could produce 'volume dynamics' unlike the harpsichord; this Italian instrument maker died in 1731, so the origins of his invention were in the early 18th century - thus, what is of real interest that no longer exists is the 'cornucopia' of keyboard instruments available to the composers of that century, and obviously the confusing issue for us now as to 'what' instrument the music was meant to played upon, if not one or several?  ;)

Each of these keyboard instruments, i.e. harpsichords, fortepianos, clavichords, et al, have their unique features and the music written was likely meant to be played on one or the other types of keyboards; my problem has been in obtaining this music is often related to the instruments used, the specific performers/performances, and the engineering of the recordings - I used to not like a lot of harpsichord music, but recent purchases have changed my mind; thus, one has to explore these various options - in the early 'classic' period, the harpsichord might be the best choice, if played & recorded well; as the 18th century progressed, a choice between the fortepiano & earlier instruments becomes an option (again, a personal decision often), and then into the latter part of that century, the fortepiano into more modern pianos seems to be the better option.

Not making a lot of sense here, I guess, but the point is that this was a dynamic evolution of keyboard instruments in the 18th century, and that composers may have written their music for a specific type of instrument but w/ the hope for more dynamics and a 'future' for a different type of performance or interpretation -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 10, 2009, 10:46:49 PM
Very interesting post, Gurn.  I have often wondered about this...  When do you stop using harpsichord and start using piano?  The practice seems to be any "Classical" work, but - as you have aptly pointed out - this runs into problems.  What about volume indications or the lack thereof?  Take Haydn's keyboard concerto in D, H. 23:11 - Pinnock and Koopman both seem to be of the notion that this is a harpsichord piece.  I assume this is do to a lack of crescendos/decrescendos and volume indications?

I'm also curious about Mozart's early piano concerti, 5-9: would these have been performed regularly on harpsichord during this time?  I remember reading a commentary by Professor Zaslaw that said that No. 5 was designated 'For fortepiano or harpsichord.' 

An interesting situation.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on March 10, 2009, 11:30:31 PM
I have the recording of Mozart's Six German Dances K.507, with Staier and Schornsheim playing a Stein "harpsichord and fortepiano in one" from 1777 on Harmonia Mundi. It is of course a modern arrangement, but one could easily imagine a jolly Viennese chamber dance party hearing it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 11, 2009, 03:45:25 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 05:46:37 PM
However, one of my purchases is one of those Wölfl/Colladant disks that we discussed earlier, so that was a nice little acquisition.

Which one did you buy, Gurn?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 04:20:30 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 11, 2009, 03:45:25 AM
Which one did you buy, Gurn?

The 3 sonatas, Op 28. They also had one of the pianoforte and harp duets. I should have got that one too, although Dave probably will and will fill us in on it. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 04:25:48 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 10, 2009, 10:46:49 PM
Very interesting post, Gurn.  I have often wondered about this...  When do you stop using harpsichord and start using piano?  The practice seems to be any "Classical" work, but - as you have aptly pointed out - this runs into problems.  What about volume indications or the lack thereof?  Take Haydn's keyboard concerto in D, H. 23:11 - Pinnock and Koopman both seem to be of the notion that this is a harpsichord piece.  I assume this is do to a lack of crescendos/decrescendos and volume indications?

I'm also curious about Mozart's early piano concerti, 5-9: would these have been performed regularly on harpsichord during this time?  I remember reading a commentary by Professor Zaslaw that said that No. 5 was designated 'For fortepiano or harpsichord.' 

An interesting situation.

I would say that #9 was certainly a fortepiano piece. I am not in a position to do any research right now, but IIRC he wrote this for a piano virtuoso (Mlle. Genamy) who was touring at the time. The earlier works including the #7 for 3 keyboards, are, AFAIK originally written for harpsichord.

As for Zaslaw's statement, it doesn't carry any weight at all, since 99% of all keyboard works at the time had that written on the front.

According to Geiringer, Haydn's D major concerto was almost certainly written for the piano, since the dynamic indications in the original manuscript would have been impossible to reproduce on a harpsichord. Any others before that were either written for the harpsichord or organ.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 04:29:04 AM
Quote from: Valentino on March 10, 2009, 11:30:31 PM
I have the recording of Mozart's Six German Dances K.507, with Staier and Schornsheim playing a Stein "harpsichord and fortepiano in one" from 1777 on Harmonia Mundi. It is of course a modern arrangement, but one could easily imagine a jolly Viennese chamber dance party hearing it.

Now, that is something I would like to hear! Thanks for bringing my attention to this disk, I need to find it. And yes, the situation that you imagine is very likely to be one that could have taken place. If you like this sort of thing, you should really try to find the 2 disk set on Zig Zag called (in French) "An evening at the Jacquin's" which contains music that Mozart actually wrote for little parties like that. It is a superb set. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 11, 2009, 09:25:10 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 04:25:48 AM
I would say that #9 was certainly a fortepiano piece. I am not in a position to do any research right now, but IIRC he wrote this for a piano virtuoso (Mlle. Genamy) who was touring at the time. The earlier works including the #7 for 3 keyboards, are, AFAIK originally written for harpsichord.

As for Zaslaw's statement, it doesn't carry any weight at all, since 99% of all keyboard works at the time had that written on the front.

According to Geiringer, Haydn's D major concerto was almost certainly written for the piano, since the dynamic indications in the original manuscript would have been impossible to reproduce on a harpsichord. Any others before that were either written for the harpsichord or organ.

Great answer, Gurn!  Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist???  ;)

Particularly interesting regarding the Haydn concerto... I have only heard this performed on harpsichord.  Do you happen to know of any recordings of it on fortepiano?  Or maybe of Mozart's early concerti on harpsichord?  Might be interesting!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: bhodges on March 11, 2009, 09:38:27 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 11, 2009, 09:25:10 AM
Great answer, Gurn!  Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist???  ;)

I have wondered that same thing for some time now.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on March 11, 2009, 09:41:19 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 11, 2009, 09:25:10 AM
Great answer, Gurn!  Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist???  ;)

Quote from: bhodges on March 11, 2009, 09:38:27 AM
I have wondered that same thing for some time now.  ;D

Call him Gön  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: bhodges on March 11, 2009, 09:43:45 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2009, 09:41:19 AM
Call him Gön  8)

[slaps forehead]

But of course!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 09:46:10 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 11, 2009, 09:25:10 AM
Great answer, Gurn!  Are you sure you're not secretly a prominent Austrian musicologist???  ;)

Particularly interesting regarding the Haydn concerto... I have only heard this performed on harpsichord.  Do you happen to know of any recordings of it on fortepiano?  Or maybe of Mozart's early concerti on harpsichord?  Might be interesting!  :)

This one might be worth a go. I have been thinking about it for a while:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MM1yL1X8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg).

Brautigam does a good Haydn, at least in the solo works. And this one is well reviewed, hard to go wrong. Staier also does it with Freiburg Baroque Orchestra, not heard that one either. My bad. My very, very bad... :'(

No, I'm secretly a chubby little old man with an unfortunate addiction to reading... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 09:47:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 11, 2009, 09:41:19 AM


Call him Gön  8)

Hmm, Karl, that mystery man in your avatar looks rather like a famous Austrian musicologist. Could it be?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on March 11, 2009, 09:48:52 AM
Ach! Nein! (in Ron Vibbentrop voice)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 11, 2009, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 09:46:10 AM
...not heard that one either. My bad. My very, very bad... :'(

Don't be so hard on yourself - not even the great and mysterious Gurn can have heard every Haydn recording out there!  ;D

No samples out there for Brautigam's, but Staier's has some up...

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Concerti-per-il-clavicembalo/dp/B0011B6JAC/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1236795322&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 11:28:30 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 11, 2009, 10:14:54 AM
Don't be so hard on yourself - not even the great and mysterious Gurn can have heard every Haydn recording out there!  ;D

No samples out there for Brautigam's, but Staier's has some up...

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Concerti-per-il-clavicembalo/dp/B0011B6JAC/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1236795322&sr=1-1

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain..."  :D

Here is the Brautigam. If you click that tiny arrow at the beginning of the track description, I believe it will play a sample. BTW, this is a great download site I buy from them whenever they have what I am looking for... Hey, just sayin'... :)

http://www.eclassical.com/eclassic/eclassical?&last_page=bengt&performer=Brautigam%2c+Ronald&page=record_list&cd_nr=BIS1318&performer_id=205

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: bhodges on March 11, 2009, 11:36:43 AM
PS, slightly off-topic, but I have Brautigam in Shostakovich's piano concertos, and he's superb in those. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: premont on March 11, 2009, 01:26:16 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2009, 06:37:04 PM
What's the proper keyboard instrument for classical sonatas?

Always a point of contention among period instrument enthusiasts. Just like with nearly everything else to do with music, there is no hard and fast date when a transition took place. Music that was unquestionably written for the fortepiano exists from as early as 1765. Boccherini (a string man, of all people!) was the first to publish accompanied sonatas that stated on the cover page "6 Sonatas for Fortepiano & Violin - Op V" in Paris in 1767. It goes without saying that he was trying to impress a lady (the dedicatee was a prominent fortepianist in the City). And also in Paris, Johann Eckard arrived a few years earlier (1761) as a fortepiano salesman for Steiner and wrote a series of sonatas for the fortepiano. However, that doesn't mean that the day of the clavicembalo (harpsichord) was over. Obviously, not everyone could afford to immediately throw out their old instruments and buy new. So in the interest of selling sheet music, publishers continued even into Beethoven's time to put on the front "For the Pianoforte or Harpsichord". However, it isn't as difficult as all that to tell what was what. A dead giveaway was the use of dynamic markings, especially crescendos and decrescendos, but also pp and fff and the like. Why a giveaway? Well, harpsichords couldn't follow those markings. They played in virtually the same dynamic all the time because they relied on plucking of the strings. It's true that different registers could produce different volume levels, but that doesn't help much with a big, arpeggiated crescendo! :)

It is thought that Mozart first encountered a fortepiano in <>1772, and probably had one in his hands by 1775. So that date is used (albeit tentatively) for Mozart's music, anyway. Any keyboard music post 1775 is probably piano music. Other composers are not so well documented, so it takes reading the original score (publishers added the markings later on, so only the original will do) to find the dynamics. A bit more difficult.

Oh, and let's not overlook the fact that many, many composers spent the long evenings in their rooms with the clavichord, and a lot of solo works are written just for it. If you haven't heard a clavichord, it's way past time... :)

8)

Great post Gurn, the ambiguities in this topic could not be stated more precisely. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: nut-job on March 11, 2009, 01:49:39 PM
Gurn,

I assume you are familiar with this series?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NWK014X6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've been listening recently, these works are engaging, if not on the level of the very best.  Listenin to music like this gives you an idea of what elements in Beethoven were truly revolutionary and what were in line with his contemporaries.  Contrasting one of the presto finales of Beck with the finale of Beethoven's 7th is instructive.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 11, 2009, 01:54:16 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 11:28:30 AM
...this is a great download site I buy from them whenever they have what I am looking for... Hey, just sayin'... :)

I've bought from eClassical every now and then: high-quality files for cheap!  What more can one ask for???
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 04:20:43 PM
Quote from: nut-job on March 11, 2009, 01:49:39 PM
Gurn,

I assume you are familiar with this series?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NWK014X6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've been listening recently, these works are engaging, if not on the level of the very best.  Listenin to music like this gives you an idea of what elements in Beethoven were truly revolutionary and what were in line with his contemporaries.  Contrasting one of the presto finales of Beck with the finale of Beethoven's 7th is instructive.



Yes. I am really quite fond of Beck, and his name doesn't come up often even among people who enjoy obscure composers, and for no good reason. I have the Naxos Op 1 disk, and the cpo Op 3 & 4 pairs. Beck was a Mannheimer, and one of the best, IMO. Among other novelties in his work, he was the first (IIRC) to use trombones in one of his symphonies. Here is a bio from Answers.com for anyone interested. Note their comments on his music; I agree with all of this. Very interesting!

Franz Ignaz Beck

    * Country: Germany
    * Born: February 20, 1734 in Mannheim, Germany
    * Died: December 31, 1809 in Bordeaux, France

Biography
German composer Franz Ignaz Beck is a controversial exception to almost all of the standard rules regarding eighteenth century musicianship. Born in Mannheim and educated by Johann Stamitz, Beck's orchestral music retains the technical know how expected from a student of Stamitz, but otherwise his stormy and stylistically fearless symphonies show no resemblance to what one normally associates with the "Mannheim School." Standard references show Beck, initially nurtured under the patronage of Elector Carl Theodor, as traveling from the Mannheim court to study with Galuppi. However, the reminiscences of one of Beck's students reveal the composer fled Mannheim after believing he'd killed a man in a duel -- the victim turned up, decades later, alive and well at Beck's door. Although Beck's symphonies begin to appear toward the end of his Italian period, little is known of his time in Italy other than that he spent much of it in Venice and later Naples, where in 1760 Beck was forced once again to flee to Marseilles after secretly engaging his patron's daughter in marriage.

The rest of Beck's life was centered in France, residing in Bordeaux and traveling to Paris on occasion to perform and publish his works, which were known throughout Europe. In addition to the symphonies, apparently all produced between 1757 and 1762, Beck was renowned for his solo keyboard music and abilities as an improviser on the organ, and he held for a time post of organist at Cathèdrale St. Seurin in Bordeaux. None of Beck's organ music survives; likewise, most of the operas and ballets he composed for the Grand Théâtre in Bordeaux have disappeared. The calculable triumphs of Beck's later years include his superb setting of the Stabat Mater (Paris, 1783) and his Hymne à l'être Suprème, a Revolutionary-era barn-burner that earned him appointment to the Instituit de France, a professorship Beck held until his death at age 75 on the last day of 1809.

Franz Ignaz Beck is an almost exact contemporary of Franz Josef Haydn, but his symphonies are strikingly advanced for their time. Beck was already utilizing four-movement structures by 1760, and his symphonies are rich with the violent contrasts and explosive effects associated with the Stürm und Drang phase found in Haydn's middle symphonies and those of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach. Nevertheless, Beck's work was completely forgotten until published studies on his work were put forward by musicologists Hugo Riemann in the early 1900s and Robert Sondheimer in the 1920s. Although Sondheimer made the strongest case to restore Beck to the active repertoire, he also made claims on behalf of Beck that went a little too far, awarding Beck developments in Western orchestral music that clearly belong to Beethoven. Sondheimer's editions of Beck's symphonies, published in the 1950s, are heavily edited, even to the extent of adding parts not in the original scores. Artaria Editions of Hong Kong has published authoritative and accurate editions of Beck's symphonies since the 1990s, yet there remains some dispute about their total number. Grove's gives the number of Beck symphonies conservatively at 19, but by of the end of 2006 Artaria had published 27 symphonies under his name with presumably more to follow; some held in manuscript sources are believed inauthentic. ~ Uncle Dave Lewis, All Music Guide

Try it and see. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 04:23:03 PM
Quote from: premont on March 11, 2009, 01:26:16 PM
Great post Gurn, the ambiguities in this topic could not be stated more precisely. ;)

Thank you, premont. I agree with you on that. It is precisely the ambiguities which got me interested in this topic a few years ago. At this point, and with our current level of knowledge, there are no absolutes... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 04:26:11 PM
Quote from: bhodges on March 11, 2009, 11:36:43 AM
PS, slightly off-topic, but I have Brautigam in Shostakovich's piano concertos, and he's superb in those. 

--Bruce

Bruce,
Well, slightly OT, yes, but as good a testament as any to Brautigam's pianistic talents. He is often classed with those loony fortepianists ( :D ) but he is indeed a fine player. Another of his modern piano ventures (although not modern music) is a very nice rendition of Mendelssohn's piano concertos. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 10, 2009, 07:07:45 PM
Gurn - nice post above about keyboard instrumentation in this fascinating 18th century.  Of course, Cristofori HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeo_Cristofori) is credited w/ the invention of the piano, i.e. an instrument that could produce 'volume dynamics' unlike the harpsichord; this Italian instrument maker died in 1731, so the origins of his invention were in the early 18th century - thus, what is of real interest that no longer exists is the 'cornucopia' of keyboard instruments available to the composers of that century, and obviously the confusing issue for us now as to 'what' instrument the music was meant to played upon, if not one or several?  ;)

Dave, sorry it took a while to get back to your post, but it was a bit longer and I couldn't type fast enough in my limited time this AM at work. :)  Yes, Cristofori did indeed invent the hammer piano, and IIRC it was <>1709-10. Clearly there was a lot of work to do to make it viable (like a good escapement to stop double striking, for example), but it was still the model for the future. Like all true revolutions though, it was very slow to gain acceptance. There were a few scattered around through Italy and Germany, but it was a long time before it took off. As I understand it, Sebastian Bach tried it and didn't like it a bit... :)

QuoteEach of these keyboard instruments, i.e. harpsichords, fortepianos, clavichords, et al, have their unique features and the music written was likely meant to be played on one or the other types of keyboards; my problem has been in obtaining this music is often related to the instruments used, the specific performers/performances, and the engineering of the recordings - I used to not like a lot of harpsichord music, but recent purchases have changed my mind; thus, one has to explore these various options - in the early 'classic' period, the harpsichord might be the best choice, if played & recorded well; as the 18th century progressed, a choice between the fortepiano & earlier instruments becomes an option (again, a personal decision often), and then into the latter part of that century, the fortepiano into more modern pianos seems to be the better option.

Well, oddball that I seem to be, harpsichords and I were love at first sight. I never truly appreciated Bach, for example, until I got his keyboard works on harpsichord. Now I won't listen to them on anything else. But getting back to cornucopias, let's not overlook another of my favorites, the tangent piano (Tangentenflügel). I have had a hard time finding information on this instrument, harder even than finding recordings played on it! But even though it seems most closely related to the clavichord, it was a piano. The surprising thing is that it sounds rather like a harpsichord! I will do some quick looking through my library and see what recordings I have, there are at least two of them. Anyway, the period of rapid expansion, just like the evolution of everything else (including man!) led down a few dead ends until the modern piano arose in <>1830, and it has scarcely changed a whit since then.

QuoteNot making a lot of sense here, I guess, but the point is that this was a dynamic evolution of keyboard instruments in the 18th century, and that composers may have written their music for a specific type of instrument but w/ the hope for more dynamics and a 'future' for a different type of performance or interpretation -  :)

I have often read that idea and pondered it. I find it hard to buy into "writing for the future", even with Beethoven. However, what I DO believe is that composers always pushed the envelope of the possible, and instrument makers accepted the challenge and constantly made the most of new ideas to accommodate the composers. It was co-evolution, and at different times, one or the other led the way, but overall they were always in a dead heat... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2009, 04:50:59 PM
Quote from: nut-job on March 11, 2009, 01:49:39 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NWK014X6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/June07/Beck_7770332.jpg)  (http://www.darkest-destruction.com/fussli-nightmare.jpg)

I've been listening recently, these works are engaging, ......


Nut Job - looks like Gurn has already provided some intro material on Franz Beck (his dates relative to Haydn have always been intriguing, just 2 yrs off the birth date!); he is certainly worth exploring, and the CPO label has done a great job in recording his works - currently, I have the disc that you have shown, but have inserted 2 others on the CPO label that are worth a hearing, i.e. Op. 4, Nos. 1-3 Symphonies & the Op. 3, Nos. 3-5 Symphonies; of course, Naxos is also publishing some of his works - just have a single disc on that label so far!

BTW, I love the paintings of the cover art for the CPO CDs - the one above w/ the weird horse is from a search of the painter, Johann Heinrich Fussli, whose cover art is used on all of these illustracted discs - interesting and possibly a reflection of Beck's music?  Fussli was a Swiss painter who lived in the 18th century, so the art matches the period! -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 11, 2009, 05:14:42 PM
Great posts, thanks to everybody and particularly to Gurn. He seems to come directly from Clavierland! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 05:24:00 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 11, 2009, 05:14:42 PM
Great posts, thanks to everybody and particularly to Gurn. He seems to come directly from Clavierland! ;)

:D  Don't you just love that quote from Mozart? As soon as i read it, I had to have it!

Letter to Leopold, June 1781 : "Here (Vienna),  is certainly the Land of the Piano"!  There was a lad with ambition. And vision. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn Fortepiano Concertos - Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam (HIP) - Hob 18:02 Concerto in D for Keyboard and Orchestra 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2009, 05:53:36 PM
Mozart, WA (1756-1791) - Symphonies w/ Mackerras & the Prague Cham Orch on Telarc - released as a 10-CD box at a fabulous price - just arrived the other day and starting my listening experience; I had 3 previous CDs of these works, but this is my first 'complete' set of the Mozart Symphonies; do own a number of different conductors in the latter half of Mozart's output in this repertoire - in fact, love this guy in a variety of different approaches.

So, my reason for posting is not to start a discussion of Mozart 'Symphony Sets' (we already have these threads), but to discuss several issues of Mozart's output in this genre:  1) Authenticity, esp. of the early Symphonies, e.g. on the first disc of this set the No. 1 Symphony, likely authentic, was composed by Wolfie in London when in was 8 y/o!  However, some of the later 'early' works were likely composed by others, including his father & Abel; 2) Sequence of these works - the numbers relative to the Symphonies was intermixed, but the Kochel numbers are in order; and 3) Performance - his first 'verified' symphony was written in 1764 and the last toward the end of his life a quater of century later - how should these works be performed?  I like Mackerras' approach (why buy the box?), but of course there are so many other ways to perform these works.  So, thus the questions - Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660459_QWgCo-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on March 11, 2009, 06:20:13 PM
Gurn, Nut-Job, and Dave,

Just added the Beck disc to my wish-list.  As stated in the past, I buy a classical cd each month for my God children.  A goal within this is to make sure that their library not only has the "war-horses", but also composers not always thought of by most.  A variety if you will.  So just added the Beck disc to the wish-list for next months purchase.  Obviously, I will snag one also. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 06:20:55 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 11, 2009, 05:53:36 PM
Mozart, WA (1756-1791) - Symphonies w/ Mackerras & the Prague Cham Orch on Telarc - released as a 10-CD box at a fabulous price - just arrived the other day and starting my listening experience; I had 3 previous CDs of these works, but this is my first 'complete' set of the Mozart Symphonies; do own a number of different conductors in the latter half of Mozart's output in this repertoire - in fact, love this guy in a variety of different approaches.

So, my reason for posting is not to start a discussion of Mozart 'Symphony Sets' (we already have these threads), but to discuss several issues of Mozart's output in this genre:  1) Authenticity, esp. of the early Symphonies, e.g. on the first disc of this set the No. 1 Symphony, likely authentic, was composed by Wolfie in London when in was 8 y/o!  However, some of the later 'early' works were likely composed by others, including his father & Abel; 2) Sequence of these works - the numbers relative to the Symphonies was intermixed, but the Kochel numbers are in order; and 3) Performance - his first 'verified' symphony was written in 1764 and the last toward the end of his life a quater of century later - how should these works be performed?  I like Mackerras' approach (why buy the box?), but of course there are so many other ways to perform these works.  So, thus the questions - Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660378_VnJ6a-M.jpg)

Dave,
I have this box too, it is my favorite modern instrument set (by a good margin).

Interesting questions. Maybe ones that don't have a definitive answer either.

Authenticity - At this point, our best recourse on this question is the Neue Mozart Ausgabe (The New Mozart catalog) which has finally been completed within the last couple of years. It is essentially the replacement for Köchel. The editor-in-chief of this project was Dr. Neal Zaslaw, who coincidentally authored a couple of superb books about Mozart, one which should be on everyone's shelf (The Compleat Mozart), and another that is a specialist volume, The Symphonies of Mozart. He also wrote The Piano Concertos of Mozart, but since I don't have it, it remains lower in my estimation ;D . In any case, it is Zaslaw's contention that since we don't have the original manuscripts for a lot (most?) of these early works, we may never know for sure what the story is. So they are instead analyzed on stylistic grounds (a tricky proposition at best). The likelihood that they are by Abel is slim. There is little doubt that Leopold had a hand in some of them, at the very least in copying and correcting obvious errors. The creative part of them is most likely Mozart himself. You will note that the numbering jumps from #1 (K 16) to #4 (K 19). K 17 & 18 (#2 & 3) are omitted as being certainly not by Mozart. So there are examples of works omitted. There are also works added, such as K 19a. This was a manuscript found much later on (in the 20th century, I believe) and attributed for mostly circumstantial reasons. Direct evidence is lacking in either direction. This is going to be the story on a lot of them, so you may never find satisfaction. I've decided to simply enjoy them, because whoever wrote them was a good craftsman. :)

The numbering is much the same. I don't remember the number of K 19a, but since it showed up after the "Jupiter" had gotten #41, it has a weirdly higher number, like #45 or something like that. Anyway, I almost never use the numbers so I don't care... :D

Performance - well, as you note, they span a relatively long period of time, one which was also chockfull of changes in performance. If you really want to hear something approaching the best we can do in recreating performance practice, I highly recommend dropping a fairly large chunk of change and getting the Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder/Hogwood set of 19 disks. A long time went into the preparation of this set. Zaslaw and Hogwood prepared all the scores and did a huge amount of research to make sure that each one was done as closely as possible to the original. I have no intention of getting into an argument with anyone on whether HIP recreates the past listener's experience, I'm just saying that they made a supreme effort to do as well as they could with it. The accompanying booklet (written by Zaslaw) is a trove of information too.

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Jiri Antonin Benda, 6 Sonatas and 6 Sonatinas, Fortepiano - Jacques Ogg - Sonata No. 5 in g minor, I Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2009, 06:22:23 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 11, 2009, 06:20:13 PM
Gurn, Nut-Job, and Dave,

Just added the Beck disc to my wish-list.  As stated in the past, I buy a classical cd each month for my God children.  A goal within this is to make sure that their library not only has the "war-horses", but also composers not always thought of by most.  A variety if you will.  So just added the Beck disc to the wish-list for next months purchase.  Obviously, I will snag one also. ;)

Ah, great choice, Bill, especially within your parameters. You and they will be delighted. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Jiri Antonin Benda, 6 Sonatas and 6 Sonatinas, Fortepiano - Jacques Ogg - Sonata No. 9 in a minor, II Andante con moto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 12, 2009, 07:59:48 AM
Clementi, Muzio (1752-1832) - well an 'update' from way back on page 7 of this thread!  :o

Yesterday's arrival in the mail - the 2nd Volume (3-CD set) of Mastroprimiano's perusal of Clementi's Keyboard Sonatas on the fortepiano; and about to be released is another 2-CD bargain set of Shelley - this will be Vol. 3 for him (and will bring his total to 6 discs!); not sure 'how long' the two will be releasing these sets but provides some delighful comparisons of the fortepiano vs. the modern instrument in these keyboard works.

Just finished the first disc of the set by Mastroprimiano, which mostly include the Op. 1 Six Sonatas dedicated to Peter Beckford, an interesting relationship that pretty much changed Clementi's life.  Beckford was an Englishman who met the young keyboard artist in Rome in 1766 (two years earlier, Muzio at age 12 y/o had pretty much become a professional organist!); after making a 7-year contract w/ Clementi's father, Beckford took Muzio back w/ him to England, where he studied composition and keyboard technique, thus the reason for the dedication. When the contract expired, Clementi stayed in England, but of course travelled extensively on the continent -  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660051_fAayf-M.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CDA67729.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: nut-job on March 12, 2009, 08:31:59 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 11, 2009, 04:50:59 PM
Nut Job - looks like Gurn has already provided some intro material on Franz Beck (his dates relative to Haydn have always been intriguing, just 2 yrs off the birth date!); he is certainly worth exploring, and the CPO label has done a great job in recording his works - currently, I have the disc that you have shown, but have inserted 2 others on the CPO label that are worth a hearing, i.e. Op. 4, Nos. 1-3 Symphonies & the Op. 3, Nos. 3-5 Symphonies; of course, Naxos is also publishing some of his works - just have a single disc on that label so far!

Having listened to them, I tend to prefer the Opus 3 to Opus 4 from Beck.  Opus 3 strikes me as having a  bit more contrapuntal rigour in its construction, Opus 4 with a more sigificant emphasis on orchestral effects.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2009, 05:06:32 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 12, 2009, 07:59:48 AM
Clementi, Muzio (1752-1832) - well an 'update' from way back on page 7 of this thread!  :o

Yesterday's arrival in the mail - the 2nd Volume (3-CD set) of Mastroprimiano's perusal of Clementi's Keyboard Sonatas on the fortepiano; and about to be released is another 2-CD bargain set of Shelley - this will be Vol. 3 for him (and will bring his total to 6 discs!); not sure 'how long' the two will be releasing these sets but provides some delighful comparisons of the fortepiano vs. the modern instrument in these keyboard works.

Just finished the first disc of the set by Mastroprimiano, which mostly include the Op. 1 Six Sonatas dedicated to Peter Beckford, an interesting relationship that pretty much changed Clementi's life.  Beckford was an Englishman who met the young keyboard artist in Rome in 1766 (two years earlier, Muzio at age 12 y/o had pretty much become a professional organist!); after making a 7-year contract w/ Clementi's father, Beckford took Muzio back w/ him to England, where he studied composition and keyboard technique, thus the reason for the dedication. When the contract expired, Clementi stayed in England, but of course travelled extensively on the continent -  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660051_fAayf-M.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CDA67729.jpg)

That Vol. 2 of Mastroprimiano has worked its way to near the top of my wish list. Somehow on Amazon they didn't list the Op #s, so this is the first I hear that it is Op 1 et al. I haven't heard these (my collection starts at Op 2 with Susan Alexander-Max) yet, but even the Op 2 works display the Clementi that would be. These early works were very popular in Vienna, especially after he showed up on tour, the time he had the "dueling pianos" interlude with Mozart. You may have just pushed me over the top on getting this set. :)   I haven't heard Shelley, and I do like his playing, but I don't have any internal dichotomy to resolve for myself over the supremacy of the fortepiano for Classical Era works, so I decided long ago that I would concentrate on them. It was a challenge in itself until Mastroprimiano came along! :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 082 Symphony #82 in C 2nd mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 12, 2009, 05:31:29 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2009, 05:06:32 PM
That Vol. 2 of Mastroprimiano has worked its way to near the top of my wish list....
... I haven't heard Shelley, and I do like his playing, but I don't have any internal dichotomy to resolve for myself over the supremacy of the fortepiano for Classical Era works, so I decided long ago that I would concentrate on them. It was a challenge in itself until Mastroprimiano came along! :)
Good evening Gurn - just finished the 3rd CD of the 'new' Mastroprimiano release - just great (for some reason, Susan can't tolerate this instrument or the harpsichord - she's pretty much a 'professional' musician - is the issue her skill or possibly sex - I think women just have different 'ears' from men - OK, a side note of interest to me, and maybe others?).

Brilliant Classics has a complete listing of the second volume HERE (http://music.brilliantclassics.com/epages/joan.storefront/49b9b45a000dbfa0271e52c5db1e06a9/Cartridge/sl126403e5/ProductInfo/93685), but that first disc is the Op. 1 'dedicated' sonatas - really historic!  But, I must say that those Shelley recordings are special - might want to give one set @ least a try - not sure if they have appeared on BRO @ a reduced price yet?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2009, 05:42:52 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 12, 2009, 05:31:29 PM
Good evening Gurn - just finished the 3rd CD of the 'new' Mastroprimiano release - just great (for some reason, Susan can't tolerate this instrument or the harpsichord - she's pretty much a 'professional' musician - is the issue her skill or possibly sex - I think women just have different 'ears' from men - OK, a side note of interest to me, and maybe others?).

Well, I can't criticize her, her aversion is shared by many, and I am certain that the fortepiano is an acquired taste. Lots of people don't have the endurance to get there. I have some disks that would make her hair stand up, and others that I would challenge her to tell me that is was a fortepiano and not a modern one. Lots of variety. (and also I have disks on a modern piano that the player was talented enough to make sound like a fortepiano!) :)

QuoteBrilliant Classics has a complete listing of the second volume HERE (http://music.brilliantclassics.com/epages/joan.storefront/49b9b45a000dbfa0271e52c5db1e06a9/Cartridge/sl126403e5/ProductInfo/93685), but that first disc is the Op. 1 'dedicated' sonatas - really historic!  But, I must say that those Shelley recordings are special - might want to give one set @ least a try - not sure if they have appeared on BRO @ a reduced price yet?  Dave  :)

Well, you are probably right, I should give them a listen. If they do pop up at BRO, I'll have a go. Thanks for the link too. Amazon frequently disappoints in that way: they want you to drop (a sometimes large) packet on a set of disks, and they don't even tell you what is on them :o  What the hell is that?  What other company that size sells you a pig in a poke like that?  ???

8)


----------------
Listening to: Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 083 Symphony #83 in g 4th mvmt - Finale: Vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 12, 2009, 06:21:00 PM
A question for Gurn...

I listened to Mozart's Violin Sonata K. 306 the other day and was surprised by how orchestral the second and third movements sounded (did you catch the 'cadenza' at the end of the third movement???).  This immediately brought to mind the wonderful little gem K. Anh. 56, the fragmented Violin & Piano Concerto movement.  As I'm sure you very well know, the recording on the Philips edition features the Wilby reconstruction: Wilby theorized that Mozart - unable to complete the concerto - rewrote it into the Violin Sonata K. 306.  What do you think of this idea?  I actually consider Wilby's work one of the more successful Mozart reconstruction attempts.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2009, 06:28:52 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 12, 2009, 06:21:00 PM
A question for Gurn...

I listened to Mozart's Violin Sonata K. 306 the other day and was surprised by how orchestral the second and third movements sounded (did you catch the 'cadenza' at the end of the third movement???).  This immediately brought to mind the wonderful little gem K. Anh. 56, the fragmented Violin & Piano Concerto movement.  As I'm sure you very well know, the recording on the Philips edition features the Wilby reconstruction: Wilby theorized that Mozart - unable to complete the concerto - rewrote it into the Violin Sonata K. 306.  What do you think of this idea?  I actually consider Wilby's work one of the more successful Mozart reconstruction attempts.


Well, I can't dispute it on musical grounds (I don't know enough theory!) so I read his argument on historical grounds instead, and really, it is all cogent. There is nothing to the story that would stand out as "Mozart would never do that!", and from listening to the works themselves, it certainly sounds right. As for K 300l_306, it is one of my favorite of the earlier sonatas. I have the Rivest/Breitman period instrument version and it flows like honey. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 085 Symphony #85 in Bb 2nd mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 12, 2009, 06:32:09 PM
Thanks for the reply.  That concerto gets a lot of playtime on my music player.  Just great music.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2009, 06:28:52 PM...As for K 300l_306, it is one of my favorite of the earlier sonatas. I have the Rivest/Breitman period instrument version and it flows like honey. :)

Why did you have to say that???  Now I'll have to add it to The List!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2009, 06:37:24 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 12, 2009, 06:32:09 PM
Thanks for the reply.  That concerto gets a lot of playtime on my music player.  Just great music.

Why did you have to say that???  Now I'll have to add it to The List!  ;D

I know how you feel, Sorin. The List can be a killer at times. I was blessed with the whole 4 disk set of Rivest/Breitman at a time when I was trying to find really good PI performances, and POOF, there they all were, all in one nice set. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 086 Symphony #86 in D 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro spiritoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 12, 2009, 06:43:56 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 12, 2009, 06:32:09 PM
Thanks for the reply.  That concerto gets a lot of playtime on my music player.  Just great music.

Why did you have to say that???  Now I'll have to add it to The List!  ;D

Sorin  - Q & I have been recommending this duo CD set (shown below) for a while on this forum; just outstanding!  Please acquire @ your earliest convenience!   ;D   Dave


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Jw0C2GAIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eFcgLmh0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 12, 2009, 08:59:25 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 12, 2009, 06:43:56 PM
Sorin  - Q & I have been recommending this duo CD set (shown below) for a while on this forum; just outstanding!  Please acquire @ your earliest convenience!   ;D   Dave

The pressure!  The pressure!!!  (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/blowup6ba.gif)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on March 13, 2009, 07:30:25 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 09, 2009, 11:14:07 AM
I know some music from three of the composers listed: Kurpiński, Elsner and Lessel. In my very limited knowledge of Polish music from the classicism, I can recommend two works. First, Karol Kurpiński's overture to Zamek na Czorsztynie: it is a winner. Not a "great" work, but it is very beautifully scored and has some unforgettable ideas (I have two recordings of it: Spering and Borowicz). The other one is Franciszek Lessel's piano concerto in C major op. 14, a lyrical, delicate yet consistent work; in its simplicity, it has a Fieldian flavour, particularly in the undescribably beautiful Adagio. This movement alone would justify the purchase.

Fortunately for interested GMGers, the Borowicz recording I wrote about includes both recommended works from Lessel and Kurpiński. It brings also a couple more works, all highly enjoyable. Both works could be better recorded, but it is a competent recording nonetheless. (In fact, Kurpiński's overture by Spering is a better recording; he makes even the first chord meaningful, but you have to listen to it to understand what I mean. It is included in an Opus 111 CD called Chopin: the 1830 Warsaw concert).

Great to hear that! I'm not so sure about Borowicz as a conductor myself... But to his credit, he does record a lot of rare repertoire. And his recording of Cherubini's Loidoska was recently nominated for a MIDEM award (but didn't get it):
(http://www.polskieradio.pl/_files/20080116163148/2009021211532878_250.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Lodoiska_Warner-Music-Poland/browse/product/4,641847.html)

Today I'll stick to Kurpinski and Lessel. As I said, I can't offer many details about Polish classical music - I know most of it from the radio, so my impressions aren't reliable. But I'll list the recordings I'm aware of below. In some cases, I don't know the discs at all - I only just found them now when searching...

A few words about the composers. Karol Kurpiński was related to Jan Wański (whose name I also put on my list). His father was an organist and music teacher. In 1810 he came to Warsaw and managed to secure the prestigious post of second conductor at the Warsaw Opera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Theater,_Warsaw) (in 1824 he became director of the whole opera). Here he started to compose operas at quite an astounding rate (2-3 a year) - these met with general enthusiastic acclaim but were later promptly forgotten. He was also the founder of "Tygodnik Muzyczny" ("Musical Weekly") the first ever music magazine in Poland. He was the conductor at Chopin's famous March 1830 Warsaw concert (featuring the premiere performance of Chopin's F Minor Concerto).

Franciszek (Franz) Lessel studied with none other but Joseph Haydn for almost 10 years (was he such a bad student??). His father was associated with the Czartoryski family and spent almost his entire life as their court conductor in Puławy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puławy). The Czartoryskis financed Franciszek's studies in Vienna, where he stayed until Haydn's death. He then returned to Warsaw where he unsuccessfully tried to pursue a musical career. He gave up being a full time musician in 1812 - he left Warsaw and from then on only occasionally gave concerts as pianist or conductor. Shortly before his death he composed a Requiem. The Piano Concerto is his most popular piece today.

(Damn, this thing doesn't want to post properly so I'm cutting it into several parts...)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on March 13, 2009, 07:30:41 AM
Incidentally, I'd like to recommend a lecture by Adrian Thomas on music in Poland before Chopin (http://www.gresham.ac.uk/event.asp?PageId=39&EventId=396).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on March 13, 2009, 07:40:46 AM
Now for specific recordings.

There's a very good recording of Kurpinski's overture to The Two Huts on a disc of Polish 19th century symphonic music. One of the few that I own from this list and I can heartily recommend the whole disc (also, there's a rather enthusiastic review on Musicweb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Dec03/Polish_C19th.htm)):
(http://www.cdaccord.com.pl/images/covers/019.jpg) (http://www.cdaccord.com.pl/album.php?acd=019)

A slightly newer set of Kurpinski pieces (also under Borowicz) recorded for the Polish Radio is unfortunately out of print. It contains the Clarinet Concerto (with Kornel Wolak as soloist) and a selection of (five!) opera overtures:
(http://merlin.pl/Z-Wielkopolski-Rodem-Karol-Kurpinski_Orkiestra-Filharmonii-Poznanskiej-im-Tadeusza,images_product,2,PRCD1063.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Z-Wielkopolski-Rodem-Karol-Kurpinski_Orkiestra-Filharmonii-Poznanskiej-im-Tadeusza/browse/product/4,571080.html)

And another out of print recording of the Clarinet Concerto (on DUX) - arranged for clarinet and string quintet (the clarinet played by Artur Pachlewski). I hope it is re-released at some point, the whole disc is very interesting (a good helping of "light" contemporary clarinet):
(http://www.dux.pl/upload/obrazki/okladki/0396.jpg) (http://www.dux.pl/catalogue/results/details/?pid=120)

This Lidia Kozubek recital is interesting not just for the Kurpiński pieces but also compositions by two other composers I mentioned above: Maria Szymanowska and Maciej Kamieński:
(http://merlin.pl/Early-Polish-Piano-Music_Lidia-Kozubek,images_big,14,PNCD631.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Early-Polish-Piano-Music_Lidia-Kozubek/browse/product/4,443619.html)

A real rarity is a small vocal selection from Zamek na Czorsztynie (though some of Kurpinski's operas used to be once available in the Olympia Musica Antiqua Polonica series):
(http://merlin.pl/Stary-Kapral-i-inni_Antoni-Majak,images_big,21,PNCD575.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Stary-Kapral-i-inni_Antoni-Majak/browse/product/4,450449.html)

This is an excellent selection of Polish classical (Radziwiłł, Holland, Kurpiński, Janiewicz, Ogiński) and baroque music:
(http://merlin.pl/Klejnoty-polskiej-muzyki-Polonez-Oginskiego-i-inne_Warszawska-Orkiestra-Kameralna,images_big,31,PM013-2.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Klejnoty-polskiej-muzyki-Polonez-Oginskiego-i-inne_Warszawska-Orkiestra-Kameralna/browse/product/4,395223.html)
It used to be available under a much more fetching cover on Olympia (I think). The performance is anything but HIP - the pieces are all wonderful though. I think Gurn might know this one, at least he should, he had access to it once. ;D Heather Harrison was quite enthusiastic about it (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1781.0.html).

There's also an out of print Polish Radio CD with Kurpiński's Te Deum (PRCD129-2).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on March 13, 2009, 07:49:11 AM
Part 2. Lessel. This will be mostly Acte Préalable (http://www.acteprealable.com/). ;D

The excellent Wilanow Quartet has recorded Lessel's string quartet and flute quartet (with Elzbieta Gajewska) - here the performers are a recommendation in themselves:
(http://merlin.pl/Kwartety-Smyczkowy-i-Fletowy_Wilanow-String-Quartet-Elzbieta-Gajewska,images_big,6,AP0006.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Kwartety-Smyczkowy-i-Fletowy_Wilanow-String-Quartet-Elzbieta-Gajewska/browse/product/4,289022.html)

There's also a disc of flute duets:
(http://merlin.pl/Utwory-fletowe_Acte-Prealable,images_big,16,AP0178.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-fletowe_Acte-Prealable/browse/product/4,636069.html)

Marcin Łukaszewski has recorded a 2CD set of Lessel's complete piano works. I know some of these through scores and, frankly, find them a frightful bore. But perhaps a better pianist than me can make something out of them:
(http://merlin.pl/Complete-Piano-Works_Marcin-Lukaszewski,images_big,4,AP0022.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Complete-Piano-Works_Marcin-Lukaszewski/browse/product/4,558896.html)
(http://merlin.pl/Complete-Piano-Works-Vol-2_Marcin-Lukaszewski,images_big,5,AP0023.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Complete-Piano-Works-Vol-2_Marcin-Lukaszewski/browse/product/4,558900.html)
Also released under single cover:
(http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Fortepianowe_Marcin-Lukaszewski,images_big,9,AP002223.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Fortepianowe_Marcin-Lukaszewski/browse/product/4,289290.html)

The Variations in A minor Op.15 have also been recorded by Jerzy Sterczyński on Selene (a label specializing in piano repertoire):
(http://www.selenemusic.com/pl/strony/cd/min2.php?fileName=foty/41.jpg) (http://selenemusic.com/eng/?id=cd&go=pokaz&ad=41)

This disc of Lessel's music for piano and orchestra (Piano Concerto op. 14, Adagio et Rondeau a la Polonaise op. 9) looks very enticing. Except for what's listed on the cover, I don't know anything about it, have never heard the performance. I think it's rather new. The label is quite reliable for good performances of rare stuff:
(http://www.promusicacamerata.pl/pl/images/cd/PMC056.jpg) (http://www.promusicacamerata.pl/en/product_info.php?products_id=229)

And probably the newest release of all these. Lessel's Grand Trio op. 4 for piano, clarinet and horn:
(http://www.bearton.pl/sklep/okladka/Lisner-Lessel_okl.jpg) (http://www.bearton.pl/sklep/index.php?idt=83&lang=en&value=USD)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on March 13, 2009, 07:52:40 AM
Lessel and Kurpinski recordings, part 3 (of 3!).

Sometimes both composers are recorded together.

Acte Préalable has another disc with the Wilanow Quartet (and the pianist Pawel Perlinski):
(http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow,images_big,8,AP0143.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow/browse/product/4,505832.html)

And this must be the disc Gabriel mentioned (I think it's been released under a different cover or several different covers as well):
(http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof,images_big,10,AP0055.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof/browse/product/4,289061.html)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 13, 2009, 10:23:42 AM
Quote from: Maciek on March 13, 2009, 07:52:40 AM
And this must be the disc Gabriel mentioned (I think it's been released under a different cover or several different covers as well):

That is the CD indeed, Maciek!

Thank you for the very interesting information about the recordings. It's true that Polish composers of this era are almost unknown, but I'm sure that Kurpiński and Lessel can provide a proper motivation for discovery.

On the other hand, I didn't know the existence of that recording of Cherubini's Lodoïska. I have Muti's, but I wasn't too excited when I listened to it; I have a great admiration for Cherubini's music, but this particular composition seems to be an exception... ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on March 13, 2009, 02:50:19 PM
(http://merlin.pl/Early-Polish-Piano-Music_Lidia-Kozubek,images_big,14,PNCD631.jpg)

I'd buy it for the cover.  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2009, 05:06:01 PM
Maciek,
Wow, what a bunch of information you found! As I told you earlier in a PM, I haven't heard of any of these guys, but now that I see what they've done, I will try to add at least a few of them to my collection. The first, it seems will be Lessel. Impeccable credentials, and 12 or 2 disks that appear to be of real interest to my rather narrow tastes... :)  Like especially this one, for starters:

(http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow,images_product,8,AP0143.jpg)

Thanks for that!

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 087 Symphony #87 in A 3rd mvmt - Menuet - Trio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 13, 2009, 06:08:16 PM
Hi Miciek - you have overwhelmed this thread w/ a listing of Polish composers who many of us have not really heard about - not a complaint, but there are 'so many' other considerations from elsewhere in Europe of those times, so please can you recommend maybe 2-3 CDs that may be available for us to appreciate these composers - just a suggestion to one who would like to try several (but not ALL of the CDs shown) of these individuals - thanks,  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2009, 07:08:49 PM
This is a continuation of the series of recommended listening for people who want to start listening to classical era music. If you haven't read back that far, I have recommended that people begin with the well-known composers, and then with the solo keyboard music, chamber music, concerti, symphonies, vocal music and finally opera. My admittedly personal reason for this is that the smaller and more intimate chamber forms allow one to become more easily familiar with the composer's idiom and personal voice before expanding out into the larger, public works. Of course, if you are already a big opera or sacred music fan, or you have been dealing with symphonies for years and have no taste for smaller works, then have at it. Just please don't overlook the smaller works, since many of the brightest gems are hidden there. :)

F. Joseph Haydn -

Solo keyboard - The late sonatas (from #49 to #62) are a great start. But don't overlook the various other works, like the Andante & Variations in f minor, or the Arietta & Variations in A, and especially the lovely Fantasia in C.

Chamber music - So many riches to choose from!!! 

Piano trios - The last 10 or so. And don't be fooled by the Hoboken numbers. Some of the earliest are numbered in the "30's", while some of the later ones have numbers from 6-10. Not that they aren't all worth a good listen!  Particularly don't miss Hob XV:25 in G major, the one with the Gypsy Rondo finale. It's a piece of work, and shows how Haydn incorporated (among the first to do so) local "folk" music into serious art music.

String Quartets - The first to develop the string quartet into the finished form it is today. In all likelihood, the 68 recognized today are all the authentic ones to survive. How to choose though! Here are my thoughts: Start with Op 76. It is brilliant from start to finish. After that, you're on your own, but I would go (by Opus) 77, 50, 64, 33, 20. There will be plenty of legitimate arguments for 54, 55, 71 & 74, not to mention 17, but there is time to get to those. We still have to move ahead for now. :)

Other chamber works - You can't get into Haydn without at least one disk of his baryton trios. The most intimate chamber music, written expressly for him to play with the Boss after dinner... The remainder to choose from include string trios and duos. And lots of wonderful divertimentos, mainly (but not exclusively for winds). A disk of each will serve to familiarize you with this facet of Haydn's talent.

Concertos - Although not known for his concertos (he didn't particularly care for the form, and didn't have many great virtuosos coming to visit to provide inspiration and necessity). Still, there are a big handful of "don't miss this one" works. The cello concertos, the piano concerto in D major, 1 or 2 horn concertos, and above all, the famous Trumpet Concerto. There are disks available that have a mixture of different solo instruments on them (Pinnock has a splendid one, for example, but there are several others). And by all means, don't miss out on the Sinfonia Concertante for Violin, Cello, Oboe & Bassoon. It is a very fine example of that form, and will serve well to introduce you to this particularly Classical style of music. :)

Symphonies - Ummm... OK 104 to choose from, where do you start? Well, right at the end, of course! At least, that's the common wisdom. My personal view is that you need a bit of leading up before traveling to London. A disk with #6, 7 & 8 (Morning, Noon and Night) is a great intro to early Haydn. Then take a bit of a skip and try things from the early 1770's, in his more stormy and dramatic period (Stürm und Drang). Some good choices here are #44, 45, 49 & 52. Then another bit of a jump and the Paris Symphonies present themselves. After that, I wouldn't ever skip over the next few, particularly #88 & 92. Finally you are ready for the last great dozen, the London Symphonies. You would think that with such a huge oeuvre he would repeat himself a lot, but in fact his genius was such that each symphony has its own unique style and memorable bits. I wouldn't be surprised if you went back in the future and picked up on all the ones you missed... ;)

Sacred Music & Oratorios - Another wealth of beauties! The last 6 masses are not to be missed. Written after all the symphonies, these works clearly show what the master learned from his earlier works. Must have! And then, the last works of his creative career, the 2 oratorios, "The Creation" and "The Seasons". Some of the most beautiful music Haydn ever wrote.

Operas - Finally just discovering these myself, so I can't give a proper description of any of them. On first listening though, "Armida", "La Fedelta Premiata" and "Orlando Paladino" are works to be reckoned with. I hope an opera fan (Gabriel?) will jump in here and fill this in a bit. :)

I know this looks like a lot of music, and a big investment too. But to listen to all the works recommended here amounts to perhaps 25 CD's, and I am quite sure that when you are done you will consider it money well invested. Haydn seems to intimidate a lot of people due to the sheer number of works he composed, but my experience of over 300 CD's (and as of yet, not a single "big box") is that I don't regret a single one of them, because the man rarely misfired. All his music is good, and much of it is great. Try it and see!   :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken - Hob 01 090 Symphony #90 in C 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 13, 2009, 09:31:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2009, 07:08:49 PM
Listening to:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken - Hob 01 090 Symphony #90 in C 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro assai

How fitting that you were listening to Haydn whilst writing that!  Great synopsis, Gurn, as usual!  If I may add a comment or two of my own...  ;D

With regards to the masses the late six are usually the most popular, but I think the best one came at No. 5 with his magnificent cantata-mass "Missa Sanctae Caeciliae."  A magnificent work and one of my Top 5 favourite pieces in the genre.

With regards to dramatic works, don't miss Haydn's full-fledged revamping of his string quartet "Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross" into an oratorio.  This isn't just another arrangement, it's another piece entirely!

The concerti album by Pinnock you've mentioned comes with Haydn's Oboe Concerto in C.  This is certainly the best oboe concerto I've heard by a mile and my favourite of Haydn's; one of the highlights of his concerto oeuvre.

All right, I'll be quiet now!  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on March 14, 2009, 12:42:26 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 13, 2009, 06:08:16 PM
Hi Maciek - you have overwhelmed this thread w/ a listing of Polish composers who many of us have not really heard about - not a complaint, but there are 'so many' other considerations from elsewhere in Europe of those times, so please can you recommend maybe 2-3 CDs that may be available for us to appreciate these composers - just a suggestion to one who would like to try several (but not ALL of the CDs shown) of these individuals - thanks,  Dave  :)

Dave, I think the two "mixed" discs, with works by both composers, are the best place to "start". ;D

(http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow,images_big,8,AP0143.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow/browse/product/4,505832.html) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof,images_big,10,AP0055.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof/browse/product/4,289061.html)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 14, 2009, 06:16:44 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2009, 07:08:49 PM
Operas - Finally just discovering these myself, so I can't give a proper description of any of them. On first listening though, "Armida", "La Fedelta Premiata" and "Orlando Paladino" are works to be reckoned with. I hope an opera fan (Gabriel?) will jump in here and fill this in a bit. :)

There's not very much I can add to your appreciation, Gurn. In general, Haydn's operas are less outstanding than Mozart's, but there is great music nevertheless. I have always felt Il mondo della luna as a very sincere and beautiful work. The overture to L'isola disabitata is marvelous, while the rest of it is a bit less appealing. The closest to an introduction towards this music is unfortunately out of print: when Philips decided to release in CD the Dorati recordings, they also released a synopsis called "Opera Highlights" with excerpts from them.

In any case, my personal opinion is that the first approach towards Haydn's secular vocal music shouldn't be through the operas, but three individual scenes: Arianna a Naxos, Hob. XXVIb:2, originally for piano and voice but there an orchestral version; Miseri noi, misera patria, Hob. XXIVa:7; and particularly the Scena di Berenice (Hob. XXIVa:10) which I would place with no doubt among the vocal masterpieces of the classical era.

For a recording of all these three scene di concerto, there is a fine - and not expensive - performance by Hogwood and Auger. But if you wish to experience the amazing Scena di Berenice in all its splendour, go for the recording by Jacobs and Fink in Harmonia Mundi (coupled with symphonies 91 and 92). It is not just beautiful: it is unforgettable.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on March 14, 2009, 06:31:25 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 14, 2009, 06:16:44 AM
In any case, my personal opinion is that the first approach towards Haydn's secular vocal music shouldn't be through the operas, but three individual scenes: Arianna a Naxos, Hob. XXVIb:2, originally for piano and voice but there an orchestral version; Miseri noi, misera patria, Hob. XXIVa:7; and particularly the Scena di Berenice (Hob. XXIVa:10) which I would place with no doubt among the vocal masterpieces of the classical era.

Those scenes are fascinating - I have two of them on the following disc, and had assumed that they were taken from full operas, but they are works unto themselves?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412RCBW54KL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Nelson-Arianna-Naxos-Berenice/dp/B000024SG5)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 14, 2009, 06:41:15 AM
Quote from: Lethe on March 14, 2009, 06:31:25 AM
Those scenes are fascinating - I have two of them on the following disc, and had assumed that they were taken from full operas, but they are works unto themselves?

Lethe, yes, they were meant as independent works. The text is a different story, as it could come from the text of a complete opera, but to take a selection from it and make an independent work was normally done during this period (Mozart, for instance, provides wonderful examples).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 07:13:15 AM
Quote from: Maciek on March 14, 2009, 12:42:26 AM
Dave, I think the two "mixed" discs, with works by both composers, are the best place to "start". ;D

(http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow,images_big,8,AP0143.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow/browse/product/4,505832.html) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof,images_big,10,AP0055.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof/browse/product/4,289061.html)

Yes, those looked like the 2 best choices for starters to me, too. As Dave says, that's a lot of music there, but you gotta start somewhere, and a variety of genres like that gives a nice overview. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Andras Schiff (Beethoven's own Broadwood) - Bia 745 Op 119 Bagatelles (11) for Fortepiano #02 in C - Andante con moto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 07:19:43 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 13, 2009, 09:31:10 PM
How fitting that you were listening to Haydn whilst writing that!  Great synopsis, Gurn, as usual!  If I may add a comment or two of my own...  ;D

With regards to the masses the late six are usually the most popular, but I think the best one came at No. 5 with his magnificent cantata-mass "Missa Sanctae Caeciliae."  A magnificent work and one of my Top 5 favourite pieces in the genre.

With regards to dramatic works, don't miss Haydn's full-fledged revamping of his string quartet "Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross" into an oratorio.  This isn't just another arrangement, it's another piece entirely!

The concerti album by Pinnock you've mentioned comes with Haydn's Oboe Concerto in C.  This is certainly the best oboe concerto I've heard by a mile and my favourite of Haydn's; one of the highlights of his concerto oeuvre.

All right, I'll be quiet now!  8)

Sorin,
Yes, you have pointed out 2 of the probable results of my venture here. 1 - people will like what they've heard and go in search of other gems, of which there are plenty! And 2 - Other things on the disks they do get will also be discovered as first rate and have the same effect. With a composer with a body of works the size of Haydn's, it is virtually impossible to hit on everything worth listening to, and I have seen lots of posts from people who were giving Haydn a miss simply because there was too much there and they didn't know where to start. I think that's a real pity, since they will miss out on some of the great music of all time. :)

Cheers,
8)

----------------
Listening to:
Andras Schiff (Beethoven's own Broadwood) - Bia 745 Op 119 Bagatelles (11) for Fortepiano #05 - in c - Risoluto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 07:28:37 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 14, 2009, 06:16:44 AM
There's not very much I can add to your appreciation, Gurn. In general, Haydn's operas are less outstanding than Mozart's, but there is great music nevertheless. I have always felt Il mondo della luna as a very sincere and beautiful work. The overture to L'isola disabitata is marvelous, while the rest of it is a bit less appealing. The closest to an introduction towards this music is unfortunately out of print: when Philips decided to release in CD the Dorati recordings, they also released a synopsis called "Opera Highlights" with excerpts from them.

In any case, my personal opinion is that the first approach towards Haydn's secular vocal music shouldn't be through the operas, but three individual scenes: Arianna a Naxos, Hob. XXVIb:2, originally for piano and voice but there an orchestral version; Miseri noi, misera patria, Hob. XXIVa:7; and particularly the Scena di Berenice (Hob. XXIVa:10) which I would place with no doubt among the vocal masterpieces of the classical era.

For a recording of all these three scene di concerto, there is a fine - and not expensive - performance by Hogwood and Auger. But if you wish to experience the amazing Scena di Berenice in all its splendour, go for the recording by Jacobs and Fink in Harmonia Mundi (coupled with symphonies 91 and 92). It is not just beautiful: it is unforgettable.

Thanks for reminding me of those, Gabriel. I have heard (and enjoyed) them, but on looking through my collection this morning, it seems that I don't have them. That will be soon remedied! :)

And really, I skipped over a huge number of songs and arias by Haydn too. He actually considered himself to be a vocal composer. His career started out as a singer, and even though he lost his pure soprano voice at puberty (and narrowly escaped becoming a castrato! :o  :o ), he could still sing very well indeed. In addition to his scenas, some works that people might enjoy are from late in his career, like "Battle of the Nile" and "Spirit's Song", as well as the many English and Scottish folksongs he set for Thompson.

8)
----------------
Listening to:
Andras Schiff (Beethoven's own Broadwood) - Bia 745 Op 119 Bagatelles (11) for Fortepiano #08 in C - Moderato cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 14, 2009, 07:47:48 AM
Quote from: Maciek on March 14, 2009, 12:42:26 AM
Dave, I think the two "mixed" discs, with works by both composers, are the best place to "start". ;D

(http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow,images_big,8,AP0143.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Chamber-Works-For-Strings_Pawel-Perlinski-Kwartet-Wilanow/browse/product/4,505832.html) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof,images_big,10,AP0055.jpg) (http://merlin.pl/Utwory-Instrumentalne_Pawel-Stolarczyk-Monika-Mych-Michal-Zambrzycki-Krzysztof/browse/product/4,289061.html)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DmLUpEFKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Hi Maciek - thanks for the two recommendations - looks like a great 'start'!  Now adding to my GMG 'wish list' - Dave  :D

UPDATE:  Just ordered the 2 CDs suggested from GiGi in Poland - $30 total, including S&H; Amazon USA had just 1 disc & wanted $25 - but I did find another CD of Lessel's Wind Sextets on MDG (inserted above, far right) - will probably picked that one up in my next Amazon order!   ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 07:53:24 AM
Here is a disk I just found on Amazon (thus available on this side of the pond!) that has some music that I will look forward to hearing, too. It is 3 sextets for 2 Clarinets, 2 Horns & 2 Bassoons. My kind of music!  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DmLUpEFKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Andras Schiff / Yuuko Shiokawa (HIP) - K 373a 379 Sonata in G for Keyboard & Violin 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 14, 2009, 08:48:47 AM
Gurn - amazingly, we were looking @ the same MDG disc & typing at the same time!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 08:53:43 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 14, 2009, 08:48:47 AM
Gurn - amazingly, we were looking @ the same MDG disc & typing at the same time!  ;D

Not amazing, Dave; great minds think alike... ;D  Yes, I will have a shop-about before committing $25 to any disk. Guess it's the Scot in me (or my wife... ;D ). :)

8)

----------------
Listening to: Andras Schiff / Yuuko Shiokawa (on Mozart's own instruments) - K 454 Sonata in Bb for Keyboard & Violin 3rd mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 09:42:39 AM
I would be interested to know your thoughts on whether the Classical and the Romantic were 2 different eras in music history, or whether they represent a spectrum of one style that stretched from the (putative) end of the Baroque through the advent of atonalism.  Obviously I have an opinion, which I have expressed here a couple of times already, but I would like to hear what champions of both points of view have to say to maintain their points of view. Clearly we won't get far without a definition of terms, so if you are a believer in a Romantic Era, then it would be a good start to define precisely what it entails... :)

Thanks for your interest,
8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 04:41:15 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/bach_cpe.jpg)

C.P.E. Bach (courtesy of bach-cantatas.com)
Born: March 8, 1714 - Weimar, Thuringia, Germany
Died: December 14, 1788 - Hamburg, Germany

Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach was a German musician and composer, the second son of J.S. Bach and Maria Barbara Bach. He was a founder of the Classical style.

When he was ten years old C.P.E. Bach entered the St. Thomas School at Leipzig, of which in 1723 his father had become cantor, and continued his education as a student of jurisprudence at the universities of Leipzig (1731) and of Frankfurt an der Oder (1735). In 1738 he took his degree, but at once abandoned all prospects of a legal career and determined to devote himself to music.

A few months later C.P.E. Bach obtained an appointment in the service of the crown prince of Prussia, on whose accession in 1740 he became a member of the royal household. He was by this time one of the foremost clavier-players in Europe, and his compositions, which date from 1731, included about thirty sonatas and concert pieces for his favourite instrument. His reputation was established by the two sets of sonatas which he dedicated respectively to Frederick the Great and to the grand duke of Württemberg; in 1746 he was promoted to the post of chamber musician, and for twenty-two years shared with Carl Heinrich Graun, Johann Joachim Quantz, and Johann Gottlieb Naumann the continued favour of the king.

During his residence at Berlin, C.P.E. Bach wrote a fine setting of the Magnificat, in which he shows more traces than usual of his father's influence; an Easter cantata; several symphonies and concerted works; at least three volumes of songs; and a few secular cantatas and other occasional pieces. But his main work was concentrated on the clavier, for which he composed, at this time, nearly two hundred sonatas and other solos, including the set Mit veränderten Reprisen (1760-1768) and a few of those für Kenner und Liebhaber. Meanwhile he placed himself in the forefront of European critics by his Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen, a systematic and masterly treatise which by 1780 had reached its third edition, and which laid the foundation for the methods of Muzio Clementi and Cramer.

In 1768 C.P.E. Bach succeeded Georg Philipp Telemann as Capellmeister at Hamburg, and in consequence of his new office began to turn his attention more towards church music. Next year he produced his oratorio Die Israeliten in der Wüste, a composition remarkable not only for its great beauty but for the resemblance of its plan to that Felix Mendelssohn's Elijah, and between 1769 and 1788 added over twenty settings of the Passion, and some seventy cantatas, litanies, motets, and other liturgical pieces. At the same time, his genius for instrumental composition was further stimulated by the career of Joseph Haydn.

Through the latter half of the 18th century, the reputation of C.P.E. Bach stood very high. W.A. Mozart said of him, "He is the father, we are the children." The best part of Haydn's training was derived from a study of his work. Ludwig van Beethoven expressed for his genius the most cordial admiration and regard. This position he owes mainly to his clavier sonatas, which mark an important epoch in the history of musical form. Lucid in style, delicate and tender in expression, they are even more notable for the freedom and variety of their structural design; they break away altogether from the exact formal antithesis which, with the composers of the Italian school, had hardened into a convention, and substitute the wider and more flexible outline which the great Viennese masters showed to be capable of almost infinite development.

The content of C.P.E. Bach's work, though full of invention, lies within a somewhat narrow emotional range, but it is not less sincere in thought than polished and felicitous in phrase. Again he was probably the first composer of eminence who made free use of harmonic colour for its own sake since the time of Lassus, Monteverdi, and Gesualdo, and in this way also he takes rank among the most important pioneers of the First Viennese School. His name fell into some neglect during the 19th century, with Robert Schumann notoriously opining that "as a creative musician he remained very far behind his father"; in contrast, Johannes Brahms held Emanuel Bach in high regard and edited some of his music. Today, no student of music can afford to disregard Emanuel's Sonaten für Kenner und Liebhaber, his oratorios Die Israeliten in der Wüste and Die Auferstehung und Himmelfahrt Jesu, and several harpsichord concertos such as those in G major (Wq. 3) and D major (Wq. 11). Also, his Flute Concerto in D Minor (Wq. 22), due to its unparalleled mellifluous opening movement, has been performed by the greatest flautists world-wide, including Jean-Pierre Rampal.

As you can see from this, Emanuel Bach was a prodigious and influential composer. It is rather surprising that many people have heard little if any of his work. Bach is now considered to be a member of (founder?) the School of Sensibility or Empfindsang, who rebelled from the simplicity of the galant by writing works (particularly on the keyboard) which were heavily sentimental and emotional, and with a good deal more intricacy than galant works possessed. His keyboard instrument of choice was the clavichord, something that we haven't discussed much so far except in passing. Since we have a clavichord expert here on the forum, I shall essay to have him lead a bit of a discussion for us. But suffice to say that the clavichord offers more possibilities for expressing emotion in music than do either the harpsichord or the rather primitive versions of the fortepiano that existed in the period from 1745-65 when much of Bach's greatest works were produced. If you would like to hear, not only Bach, but a clavichord in action, Miklos Spanyi has done a great many of the sonatas and fantasias on BIS, and they are available for download (at 320kbps MP3) at eclassical.com. I might recommend the Württemberg Sonatas set as a first choice. Some others of his works which are more generally known are his cello concertos and sinfonias. Very recommendable. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on March 14, 2009, 05:47:06 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 09:42:39 AM
I would be interested to know your thoughts on whether the Classical and the Romantic were 2 different eras in music history, or whether they represent a spectrum of one style that stretched from the (putative) end of the Baroque through the advent of atonalism. 

2 different with some well crafted bridgework in between, but not always.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 14, 2009, 06:28:05 PM
Gurn,

What a wonderful post you've dedicated to CPE Bach!  I'm ashamed to say that I'm one of those people who have heard little of his music, but what I have heard I've liked greatly.  I have the symphony and cello concerto set from the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (Anner Bylsma on the cello) and adore it.  I should probably go get some more some time!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 06:46:34 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 14, 2009, 06:28:05 PM
Gurn,

What a wonderful post you've dedicated to CPE Bach!  I'm ashamed to say that I'm one of those people who have heard little of his music, but what I have heard I've liked greatly.  I have the symphony and cello concerto set from the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (Anner Bylsma on the cello) and adore it.  I should probably go get some more some time!  :)

Thanks, Sorin. I think that Bach is one of the most ignored composers around, so don't feel like you're alone. In fact, you have more than many do. One thing I will say, he isn't an easy composer to get into. He has his own idiom, and since he preceded what we call High Classical, his idea of sonata form is not OUR idea of sonata form. In fact, in keeping with his "emotionalism in music" ideas, many of his best works are fantasias so they don't adhere to a particular form, or at least not to one that is easy to pick out. It took me a while to get my mind around Bach, but it was worth the effort. :)

8)



----------------
Listening to:
Divertimentos & Sestetto - L'Archibudelli / Koster / Hasselmann - K 320b 334 Divertimento #17 in D 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 06:47:41 PM
Quote from: Bogey on March 14, 2009, 05:47:06 PM
2 different with some well crafted bridgework in between, but not always.  ;D

Ah, the Master Tapdancer from Colorado is heard from... ;D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Divertimentos & Sestetto - L'Archibudelli / Koster / Hasselmann - K 320b 334 Divertimento #17 in D 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 14, 2009, 07:18:50 PM
Gurn - as you already know, responding to your post in this forum format of the differences of the 'Classical vs. Romantic' era is impossible since even the experts writing on the topic don't agree - so, how are us 'amateurs' going to give a lucid explanation?  :) ;D

But, just some considerations:  First, what is the definition of the 'Classical Period' - the end of the Baroque period is usually dated by the death of JS Bach, i.e. 1750; of course, this is just a convenience, and the transition was much longer, i.e. early to later 18th century.  Second, the end or transition into the so-called 'Romantic Period' is generally accepted as early 19th century, i.e. 1820 is an average; so, one can define the 'Classical Period' as extending from 1750 to 1820, but a simplification.

Thus, what other events where occuring @ the times that impacted on these definitions; e.g. the 18th century was looking back into the more ancient Roman & Greek civilizations as 'classic' examples; these became models in art, architecture, and other areas including music; however, by the early 19th century, the concept of 'Romaticism' was entering the influences of the times, including literature and music.

Of course, yet another consideration is that these 'musical periods' were defined in retrospect, i.e. Mozart & Haydn did not considered themselves as part of the 'Classical Period', which was defined 'after the fact', and the same for the early Romantic period. So, these terms are in a way 'artificial' and applied by later historians trying to fit these periods of music into a 'timely course' that may (or may not) be true?

Now, beyond the cultural & artistic (i.e. other than music) changes that were occurring, the change in music is important, including other factors, such as dramatic evolution of the orchestras in these times, evolution of the instruments (e.g. woodwinds & the keyboards), and the change in 'sponsorship' of muscians & composers, i.e. those dependent on aristocracy/church sponosors to those becoming 'performers & free-lancers' - just so many factors that enter into this whole discussion.

Finally, another consideration is the evolution of the 'sonata form' - in the Baroque Period, instrumental music revolved around suites w/ mutliple movements often based on 'dance' formats; Haydn & Mozart as the 'supreme' examples of their times wrote & evolved the 'sonata form' in which the previous binary forms and dance forms of works were put into the more standard (from our modern perspective) into the 3 or 4 movement pieces w/ the 'sonata form' being the standard - this seems to be of major importance in the mid- to later 18th century, which continued at least into the early compositions of Beethoven.

Now, the transition from Mozart/Haydn through Beethoven/Schubert into the early 19th century is just a more difficult period to explain, and likely the reason that the 'expert writers' on this topic disagree; again, non-musical changes at the times in the arts & the literature may be the keys to how composers responded, e.g. Schubert & Schumann in their lieders (not an area of my expertise); but later Beethoven (i.e. the 3rd Symphony & beyond), Berlioz (Symphonie Fantastique), and others from that era appear on the scene, the music has changed.

Obviously, these issues & questions raise further thoughts & considerations, and there likely will never to a clear concensus regarding your original question - but will be interested in the responses of others.  Dave  :)

P.S. May be 'stirring up the pot' - but will in interesting!  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 14, 2009, 08:27:49 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 06:46:34 PM...many of his best works are fantasias so they don't adhere to a particular form...

It just so happens that I love fantasias!   :)  Any recommendations?  ;D

(http://i42.tinypic.com/uwz7n.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 15, 2009, 05:14:40 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 09:42:39 AM
I would be interested to know your thoughts on whether the Classical and the Romantic were 2 different eras in music history, or whether they represent a spectrum of one style that stretched from the (putative) end of the Baroque through the advent of atonalism.  Obviously I have an opinion, which I have expressed here a couple of times already, but I would like to hear what champions of both points of view have to say to maintain their points of view. Clearly we won't get far without a definition of terms, so if you are a believer in a Romantic Era, then it would be a good start to define precisely what it entails... :)

Thanks for your interest,
8)

Very hard topic, as is any discussion on "boundaries" between musical periods. There is nothing like that, from my perspective; I guess it is much more appropriate to say "this is music from about 1830" than to say "it is classical" or "it is romantic". I was reading yesterday an interview to the Chilean pianist Alfredo Perl where he described Mendelssohn as "the last of the classics". He's not completely right, but at the same time he's not completely wrong.

CPE Bach and Gluck, for example, have several common traits with baroque, and it is natural that it is thus. But if you compare, for example, an early opera from Gluck and Iphigénie en Tauride, you will notice an evident difference. The same happens with Beethoven, Weber or Schubert. But to my ears it is incredible to see that the arguments about "baroque", "classicism" or "romanticism" are focused on CPE Bach or Beethoven, while we have one composer, Haydn, who travelled almost transversally from baroque to romanticism. Maybe it is an intuition of mine, but I have the feeling that among future musicologists there will be even further attention over the magnitude of what Haydn did during his musical life. Haydn was born in 1732, so all his musical training was essentially baroque: it is not a coincidence that him and Albrechtsberger (if I remember correctly) were trained in (and trained) Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum. Listening to early works by Haydn (for instance, the early masses) illustrate appropriately about this background. Jump then half a century towards Die Schöpfung or, most of all, Die Jahreszeiten. I cannot claim these to be "romantic" works, but Haydn was clearly leading music to a style that was not exactly the same of, to say, the London symphonies. Had he been really active from 1801 to 1809 (his last big work was the Harmoniemesse), I'm sure he wouldn't have been a conservative composer: it was not his nature.

Well, all this unnecessary development was to say that in Haydn (a composer traditionally qualified as "classical") you can find baroque, classical and even romantic features.

In that way, Gurn is not necessarily wrong when he describes classical and romantic music as a single era. It depends on what. If you take, for example, the prevalence (not universality) of two modes (major and minor), then baroque-classical-romantic could be described as one era. But if you take the existence of a continuo, baroque and early classical would be separated from late classical and romanticism. And so on.

This means that strict qualifications will be often inaccurate. However, even if they are not precise, they can be useful for explaining certain attributes. It is just in this instrumental purpose that I believe the famous "eras" can be rightly defended. I myself have a kind of "recipe" for qualifying works as classical: I consider as such the works composed between 1760 and 1830 by composers born before 1800. But I wouldn't dare to make it universal, for it is a flexible parameter which I know can provide many failures (for example, Cherubini's last 4 string quartets are classical to me, but composed after 1830; Mendelssohn's overture to A Midsummer Night's Dream is mostly classical to me, but he was born in 1809; Arriaga was born in 1806, but all his works sound classical to me).

Summarizing, these qualifications must be granted their proper value: an introduction for understanding the main features in musical history. Music does not leap from one "period" to another, but evolves progressively.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 15, 2009, 07:16:22 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2009, 04:41:15 PM
C.P.E. Bach (courtesy of bach-cantatas.com)
Born: March 8, 1714 - Weimar, Thuringia, Germany
Died: December 14, 1788 - Hamburg, Germany

Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach was a German musician and composer, the second son of J.S. Bach and Maria Barbara Bach. He was a founder of the Classical style..................

........but a clavichord in action, Miklos Spanyi has done a great many of the sonatas and fantasias on BIS, and they are available for download (at 320kbps MP3) at eclassical.com. I might recommend the Württemberg Sonatas set as a first choice. Some others of his works which are more generally known are his cello concertos and sinfonias. Very recommendable. :)

Gurn - thanks for the bio information & comments on CPE Bach - he was indeed a prolific & versatile composer, and an important bridge between his father's sytle of music and that developed later in the 18th century.  For those not familiar w/ his works, one excellent 'bargain' introduction to his orchestral output is the 2-CD set of Cello Concertos & Symphonies w/ Bylsma & Leonhardt; but he wrote a lot of more 'intimate' music, esp. for the flute (since that was the instrument played by his 'boss', Frederick the Great) - if interested in the flute, the 2-CD set below w/ Barthold Kuijken on a period flute is another outstanding bargain (if not OOP?).

Q has been applauding those Miklos Spanyi recordings for a while now - on my 'wish list' but there are SO MANY!  Where to start - love the clavichord, but have few discs w/ that instrument featured -  :-\


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61PJY29XQQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://www.classicsonline.com/images/cds/ACC24171.gif)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2009, 11:08:33 AM
Dave & Gabriel,
Excellent posts. Lots of information there, almost too much to address point by point. So let me just expand a bit on my own ideas and see if it rebuts or supports your POV's. :)

Well, the Baroque is not hard to define, or at least to separate from the periods on either side of it. Polyphonic (carried over from earlier times), but different instruments (at least you see the development of later instruments evolving through the period; viol family to violins, virginal to harpsichord etc.), and great development of triadic, major/minor contrasts. But little in the way of dynamics. By the end of the period, lutes are gone, flutes are transverse instead of bec, the entire violin family is featured (although the gamba bass hung on for a while). And many woodwinds have been improved or even introduced (chalumeau (clarinet) and great improvement in bassoon and oboe). But the music itself undergoes the greatest change. Polyphony is hugely reduced (disappearing altogether for a little while (except in church music)), sonata form comes into prominence, orchestral dynamics take center stage and keyboard dynamics become possible through the use of the new fortepiano, melody is king. Early on, many of the dance forms of the Baroque disappear, only the minuet is retained and it assumes a form not suitable for dancing to. And new genres develop as old ones disappear. It is fair to say that you can pick out a Bach or Händel work from an early Haydn one, yes? :)

But look at the differences between "Classical" and "Romantic" now. The same genres persist right up until the end. The music is still homophonic, melodic, tonal (major/minor, triadic, tonal center). Even such classical oddities as the sinfonia concertante live til the end (Brahms' double concerto is a late example). In fact, there isn't any difference that you can single out to say "this is Romantic music now". At various times throughout the period, call it neo-classical or neo-romantic or whatever, the trend has gone back and forth towards more unusual key changes, or more or less density, or whatever other "hallmark" of one or the other that you want to assign, but these are nothing more than fads of the times, and they swing back the other way just as often.

Even Gabriel's assignment of a birthdate to a composer doesn't hold up (IMO) because you have composers early on who were born well back in the 18th century. One example I can think of easily is IMO the first "Romantic" composer, Carl Maria von Weber who was born in 1786. And I discovered that HE tended to write more in fantasia form because he absolutely had a block about writing in sonata form. All of his compositions that have a classical sonata-allegro opening movement, he wrote the other movements first and then went back and struggled through the first movement until he finally got it. So he avoided it whenever possible. :)   

Anyway, I believe that there is no justification for breaking the Homophonic Era into two parts. You had early composers who wrote more "romantically", and later composers who wrote more "classically". So the real justification is to call the entire era from the Age of Polyphony to the Age of Cacophony the Classico-Romantic or Age of Homophony.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;D (unless you give me a reason to do otherwise, of course)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Heidelberger Sinfoniker / Thomas Fey - Hob 01 094 Symphony in G 1st mvmt - Adagio - Vivace assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 15, 2009, 03:02:19 PM
Great post, Gurn. Some comments on it:

QuotePolyphonic (carried over from earlier times), but different instruments (at least you see the development of later instruments evolving through the period; viol family to violins, virginal to harpsichord etc.)...

I don't think the instrumental argumentation is really important for explaining the change of style.

QuoteBut little in the way of dynamics.

This is indeed an important difference between baroque and classical.

QuoteIt is fair to say that you can pick out a Bach or Händel work from an early Haydn one, yes?

Yes, but the comparison is not quite fair. If you compare early Haydn with Italian composers of the era, like Sammartini, there would be some more problems for drawing a line.

QuoteEven Gabriel's assignment of a birthdate to a composer doesn't hold up (IMO) because you have composers early on who were born well back in the 18th century.

I already said that the utility of the rule I explained was merely instrumental and is not intended to be always right.

QuoteIn fact, there isn't any difference that you can single out to say "this is Romantic music now". At various times throughout the period, call it neo-classical or neo-romantic or whatever, the trend has gone back and forth towards more unusual key changes, or more or less density, or whatever other "hallmark" of one or the other that you want to assign, but these are nothing more than fads of the times, and they swing back the other way just as often.

This argument is interesting, but in my opinion not completely accurate. In fact, harmonic evolution is not just the one of "unusual key changes", but also considers different tonal functions for the key changes. Subordinate sections are not mainly written in the dominant or sub-dominant, but in other keys related to the tonic. And this, Gurn, is not just theory, but sounds different to most listeners. You will tell me that it had begun in the classical era, and I will answer that it is true, but in romanticism it was much more evident than in classicism.

QuoteAnyway, I believe that there is no justification for breaking the Homophonic Era into two parts.

Unfortunately for your nomenclature, the Homophonic Era has a lot of polyphony inside. I would say that the strongest rejection of polyphony was during the period 1750-1775 for the style galant, but was never absolute. The reduction of strict counterpoint doesn't mean that there is no counterpoint. In fact, one of Chopin's most acid criticisms against Beethoven was that - sometimes - "he had turned his back towards the eternal principles". Those were the ones of counterpoint.

To end this post, already too long: as I explained, all these criticisms I develop "against" your position are not radical; it is just that I think that "eras" can qualify in different senses. As you talk about the "homophonic era" including classical and romantic, I can talk about the "tonal era" including those two plus baroque. These qualifications are not strictly correct, nor strictly incorrect, but they can be useful for our understanding of music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2009, 04:30:18 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 15, 2009, 03:02:19 PM
Great post, Gurn. Some comments on it:

I don't think the instrumental argumentation is really important for explaining the change of style.

Thanks for your reply. I love it when I have to think. :)

Instrumentation's importance is relevant by the possibilities that were opened up. Orchestral playing was especially affected by the improvements in staying in tune, for example. And tone color began to be of some importance too. Many Baroque pieces were composed for unspecified instruments. Many times, it didn't matter, as long as you could get them all in the same room and somewhat in tune with each other... ;)

QuoteThis is indeed an important difference between baroque and classical.

:)

QuoteYes, but the comparison is not quite fair. If you compare early Haydn with Italian composers of the era, like Sammartini, there would be some more problems for drawing a line.

But Sammartini's sinfonias were always homophonic, AFAIK. And Haydn actually started out with church music (thanks to Reutter), so he did indeed learn and use counterpoint early on (with much thanks to Fux, of course). Italian sinfonias and opera overtures and en'tractes were the model for the Germans. And Italian composers in Germany (especially Jomelli) were major players with people like Johann Stamitz in Mannheim. If you are saying that it would be hard to tell early Haydn from Sammartini, yes, I agree with you. But Sammartini wasn't Baroque, at least not by 1745 or so... :-\


QuoteI already said that the utility of the rule I explained was merely instrumental and is not intended to be always right.

Yes you did, my bad.  0:)

QuoteThis argument is interesting, but in my opinion not completely accurate. In fact, harmonic evolution is not just the one of "unusual key changes", but also considers different tonal functions for the key changes. Subordinate sections are not mainly written in the dominant or sub-dominant, but in other keys related to the tonic. And this, Gurn, is not just theory, but sounds different to most listeners. You will tell me that it had begun in the classical era, and I will answer that it is true, but in romanticism it was much more evident than in classicism.

I submit that this is simply evolutionary and not a cause for declaring a new era in music. Schubert (to pick one on the cusp) often made cadences out of changes from major to minor instead of tonic to dominant. His contemporaries thought that he was a bit strange, but they didn't really object to it as rule breaking. Certainly, music changed and evolved over time. Even Brahms at his most classicizing doesn't sound just like Mozart at his most romanticizing. :)  But I contend that this is simply evolution and not a wholesale change.

QuoteUnfortunately for your nomenclature, the Homophonic Era has a lot of polyphony inside. I would say that the strongest rejection of polyphony was during the period 1750-1775 for the style galant, but was never absolute. The reduction of strict counterpoint doesn't mean that there is no counterpoint. In fact, one of Chopin's most acid criticisms against Beethoven was that - sometimes - "he had turned his back towards the eternal principles". Those were the ones of counterpoint.

True enough. But you won't find a true, strict fugue written in this time, for example. Even Beethoven's Große Fuge, is not the sort of fugue that a Baroque composer would have tossed out. Counterpoint was rescued from the oblivion it was consigned to by the galant composers because it was found to be necessary to make music interesting to listeners. Haydn's 4th movement canons in Op 20 were a major part of that, of course. But I wonder at the accuracy of Chopin's statement. I guess the "sometimes" is a necessary qualifier, since Beethoven was a master of counterpoint when it suited him to be. :)

QuoteTo end this post, already too long: as I explained, all these criticisms I develop "against" your position are not radical; it is just that I think that "eras" can qualify in different senses. As you talk about the "homophonic era" including classical and romantic, I can talk about the "tonal era" including those two plus baroque. These qualifications are not strictly correct, nor strictly incorrect, but they can be useful for our understanding of music.

Yes, I won't argue the utility. What bothers me is the useless (and vituperative!) arguments that are raised over things like "was Beethoven a Classical or Romantic composer?" or Schubert, or whoever. I think that these terms, which are literary rather than musical, cause people to waste way too much time arguing things that have no meaning, almost as though they DID have meaning. :)  If you stipulate up front that the Classical and Romantic were 2 different extremes of the same phenomenon, and that between the extremes there is a good blend of both, then those arguments become moot. ;)

Cheers,
Gurn 8)


----------------
Listening to:
Heidelberger Sinfoniker / Thomas Fey - Hob 01 082 Symphony in C 2nd mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 15, 2009, 05:10:52 PM
QuoteBut you won't find a true, strict fugue written in this time, for example. Even Beethoven's Große Fuge, is not the sort of fugue that a Baroque composer would have tossed out.

There are examples for sure, but they are not very frequent. On counterpoint in general, for example both Mozart and Cherubini left pages in which they proved that they were perfectly capable of composing in stile antico. On the other hand, the most radical one was Rejcha: when Beethoven read the fugues op. 36 composed by his exact contemporary, he exclaimed that those were no longer fugues. In fact, Rejcha comes as a very good example of "personal" counterpoint during the classical period. His music is filled with inventive and surprising contrapuntal pages.

QuoteBut I wonder at the accuracy of Chopin's statement. I guess the "sometimes" is a necessary qualifier, since Beethoven was a master of counterpoint when it suited him to be.

Yes, "sometimes" is the proper meaning. I guess Chopin didn't doubt of Beethoven's genius, but he expressed his concern about what was "obscure" in Beethoven's music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on March 16, 2009, 09:33:23 AM
I don't want to interrupt the conversation with silliness, so I'll keep this short...

In tagging ripped CDs, especially of Haydn, my obsession with uniformity of units has been serverely tested at times. The biggest confusion is: why do some symphonies generally have all sources (printed media, online, CD booklets, etc) prefix the tempo marking of the final movement with "finale", eg "IV. Finale: Allegro", wheras the same sources are all in agreement on not adding this prefix to the final movements of certain other works, eg "IV. Presto". Also, in modern use, would using the finale term be redundant (as we know what is coming anyway) or is there a logic behind its application?

...I get the feeling I just asked something very dumb :P
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2009, 11:34:54 AM
Quote from: Lethe on March 16, 2009, 09:33:23 AM
I don't want to interrupt the conversation with silliness, so I'll keep this short...

In tagging ripped CDs, especially of Haydn, my obsession with uniformity of units has been serverely tested at times. The biggest confusion is: why do some symphonies generally have all sources (printed media, online, CD booklets, etc) prefix the tempo marking of the final movement with "finale", eg "IV. Finale: Allegro", wheras the same sources are all in agreement on not adding this prefix to the final movements of certain other works, eg "IV. Presto". Also, in modern use, would using the finale term be redundant (as we know what is coming anyway) or is there a logic behind its application?

...I get the feeling I just asked something very dumb :P

Not dumb at all, and unfortunately, my answer is based on circumstantial evidence.

Up until Beethoven, who wrote out everything down to the smallest detail, it was very common for composers to only write out a tempo indication when it was something other than "Allegro" for a first movement, and they also allowed the musicians to infer the tempo for the last movement by simply writing "Finale". Last movements were frequently Allegro also. If it was something else, it would be written out, but if it was Allegro, then they would just write Finale, OR (and here my lack of musical knowledge to bolster my historic knowledge plays me foul) they let the tempo be dictated by the time signature. Maybe a musician will help here. I know what I want to say but lack the technical knowledge to say it correctly. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 16, 2009, 12:20:34 PM
QuoteUp until Beethoven, who wrote out everything down to the smallest detail...

This remark reminds me on an evolution during the classical period that, as much as I can remember, has not been touched in previous posts: the role of improvisation. Until the end of mid-classical (so until 1805 or so) it was quite an important part of any perfomance, in vocal or in instrumental music. Late classical began with the trend of indicating more precisely - sometimes obsessively - dynamics, tempi and other musical aspects. There are many examples for this. Beethoven is quite evident, but, for example, the fioriture that Hummel wrote in his piano scores are a sign of the same movement: in other times, that ornamentation would have been left freely to the discretion and good taste of the performer.

On improvisation in itself as an independent artistic expression, I cannot comment too much, for I don't know accurately what happened after 1830. Before 1830, the most distinguished soloists, and I think mainly about pianists, would normally offer an improvisation during a concert: Mozart, Beethoven and Hummel were all very fond of this practice. But the fact that Chopin labeled as such written compositions can give a certain clue on a change in mentality. What to say nowadays: to my knowledge, solo performances almost never delight the audience with improvisation.

QuoteI get the feeling I just asked something very dumb.

On the contrary, I think it's a very good question. Gurn exposed the most important points. It is not strange, in music before 1800 or so, to find movements without any tempo indication; if it was a concerto, and the middle movement had no precision on this point, you had to play it slowly. A finale was to be simply an allegro... but if it was following the typical Italian pattern, because, for example, a French influence on the work could make it be Tempo di menuetto. Anyway, these cases - to my experience - were generally described as that. I agree with Gurn that a professional musician or musicologist could help us a lot in this aspect.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2009, 05:49:43 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 16, 2009, 12:20:34 PM
This remark reminds me on an evolution during the classical period that, as much as I can remember, has not been touched in previous posts: the role of improvisation. Until the end of mid-classical (so until 1805 or so) it was quite an important part of any perfomance, in vocal or in instrumental music. Late classical began with the trend of indicating more precisely - sometimes obsessively - dynamics, tempi and other musical aspects. There are many examples for this. Beethoven is quite evident, but, for example, the fioriture that Hummel wrote in his piano scores are a sign of the same movement: in other times, that ornamentation would have been left freely to the discretion and good taste of the performer.

On improvisation in itself as an independent artistic expression, I cannot comment too much, for I don't know accurately what happened after 1830. Before 1830, the most distinguished soloists, and I think mainly about pianists, would normally offer an improvisation during a concert: Mozart, Beethoven and Hummel were all very fond of this practice. But the fact that Chopin labeled as such written compositions can give a certain clue on a change in mentality. What to say nowadays: to my knowledge, solo performances almost never delight the audience with improvisation.

Yes, it was a big change, and not necessarily one for the better. Although as you say, taste was of the ultimate importance, even (especially?) with cadenzas, and Beethoven, for one, simply didn't trust the average performer to improvise a cadenza that didn't detract from the effect rather than adding to it. As for modern performers performing their own cadenzas, and adding other improvisations, I can name exactly one, that is, Robert Levin. And he gets a fair amount of flak for it by the greater share of ignorant critics and other fans because he doesn't "play it as written". But what the heck, Mozart only wrote out a few, and they probably weren't what he played himself, just some things for students and amateurs. I am very fond of Levin's playing, and particularly his improvisations. Anyone who complains about them (unless he doesn't do one well) doesn't know anything about Classical music... :)

QuoteOn the contrary, I think it's a very good question. Gurn exposed the most important points. It is not strange, in music before 1800 or so, to find movements without any tempo indication; if it was a concerto, and the middle movement had no precision on this point, you had to play it slowly. A finale was to be simply an allegro... but if it was following the typical Italian pattern, because, for example, a French influence on the work could make it be Tempo di menuetto. Anyway, these cases - to my experience - were generally described as that. I agree with Gurn that a professional musician or musicologist could help us a lot in this aspect.

I have made approaches. Hoping to get some help here. :)

8)


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Listening to:
Heidelberger Sinfoniker / Thomas Fey - Hob 01 084 Symphony in Eb 1st mvmt - Largo - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on March 16, 2009, 09:58:46 PM
Thank you very much - this also explains another oddity in music from this era (and the Baroque) which is some movements having the allegro marking in brackets.

A final question in this vein - excluding any additional markings, are the different spellings used by the same sources for the various minuets in Haydn's symphonies indicative of differences in style, or are they relics from different translations/editions? Examples (all from the Goodman cycle):

No.42: Menuet. Allegretto
No.43: Menuetto
No.49: Menuet
No.77: Menuetto. Allegro

From what I gather, menuetto is the Italian form of the word, menuet the French - could this indicate a subtle difference in the way they should be interpreted?

Sorry hehe, I am just a control freak...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on March 16, 2009, 10:04:28 PM
Quote from: Lethe on March 16, 2009, 09:58:46 PM
No.42: Menuet. Allegretto
No.43: Menuetto
No.49: Menuet
No.77: Menuetto. Allegro

From what I gather, menuetto is the Italian form of the word, menuet the French - could this indicate a subtle difference in the way they should be interpreted?

Sorry hehe, I am just a control freak...

Menuet IS a menuet while minuetto is like saying "in the style of a minuet". The difference is subtle.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on March 16, 2009, 10:07:55 PM
Quote from: springrite on March 16, 2009, 10:04:28 PM
Menuet IS a menuet while minuetto is like saying "in the style of a minuet". The difference is subtle.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense, thanks! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on March 17, 2009, 05:25:39 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 14, 2009, 07:18:50 PM
Finally, another consideration is the evolution of the 'sonata form' - in the Baroque Period, instrumental music revolved around suites w/ mutliple movements often based on 'dance' formats; Haydn & Mozart as the 'supreme' examples of their times wrote & evolved the 'sonata form' in which the previous binary forms and dance forms of works were put into the more standard (from our modern perspective) into the 3 or 4 movement pieces w/ the 'sonata form' being the standard - this seems to be of major importance in the mid- to later 18th century, which continued at least into the early compositions of Beethoven.

I am confused by the qualification at least into the early compositions here;  Beethoven employed sonata design practically to his last score. (To say nothing of Brahms and later . . . .)  Or am I misreading you?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on March 17, 2009, 05:29:16 AM
For the last few weeks, I've been going through the 11 CD box set of Mozart's complete Serenades & Divertimenti for strings and wind, which includes performances from the Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields, the Hollinger Wind and Netherlands Wind Ensemble (Philips).  There is such glorious, bright music that at times puts a smile on my face that I cannot hide.  It includes one of my favorite works of Mozart......no (not Eine kleine Nachtmusik, but that is a good one ;)), but the Serenade for Winds in B flat, K.361 Gran Partita.  This Mozart masterpiece moves me unlike anything else, with the only near equal being the Requiem.

Today, I'm finishing off the cycle by listening to disc 5, which includes the March for strings in D, K.445 and the mammoth Divertimento for strings in D, K.334   :)

When people discuss the greatness of Mozart, yes....we mention the great operas, symphonies, piano concerti, sacred works, string quartets and quintets, and even the orchestral serenades......but don't ignore the string and wind serenades and divertimenti!  It is much, much more than just Eine kleine Nachtmusik!!   :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on March 17, 2009, 05:31:47 AM
On the subject of the minuet, or menuet, or the 'ole classical scherzo', as I like to call it.  I seem to greatly prefer Haydn's to Mozart's in this regard.  :-\
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on March 17, 2009, 05:52:49 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 16, 2009, 12:20:34 PM
On improvisation in itself as an independent artistic expression, I cannot comment too much, for I don't know accurately what happened after 1830. Before 1830, the most distinguished soloists, and I think mainly about pianists, would normally offer an improvisation during a concert: Mozart, Beethoven and Hummel were all very fond of this practice. But the fact that Chopin labeled as such written compositions can give a certain clue on a change in mentality. What to say nowadays: to my knowledge, solo performances almost never delight the audience with improvisation.

Likewise, I wait on the word of one who knows better.  One notion that comes to mind is that, many of Chopin's appearances were in salons, and there would not have been any printed program.  Part of his aesthetic was that the composition should cohere well (be a composition) and yet have a sense of spontaneity.  To his audience, it would not have made a great difference, perhaps, if one of the works he performed had been 'genuine improvisation' or a consideredly-composed Impromptu (Schubert wrote Impromptus as well, of course).

To an extent, I think this is as much continuum as any break from (say) JS Bach.  Recall Old Bach's visit to Sans Souci, and Frederick's request that he improvise a fugue on the famously chromatically tortuous theme.  When Bach afterwards sent The Musical Offering, it was bookended with the Ricercars . . . one in three voices, the other in six.  IIRC it is understood that the six-voice fugue Bach composed at his desk as a belated compliance with the regal request, and that the three-voice fugue was largely based on his impromptu performance while at court.  As such, the three-voice Ricercar is a tour-de-force, no question . . . but (from a compositional perspective) there is a certain reliance of figuration-filler . . . nothing musically 'wrong' with that (of course), and yet an element which does not make it quite so distinctive, compositionally.

I suppose that part of the shading into the Romantic from the Classical, is the allied idea of making every note count, in a sense.  A resistance to repeating oneself;  not that Mozart or Haydn (any more than Vivaldi or Bach) were 'churning out copy', of course.  But a sort of attitude adjustment over time.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on March 17, 2009, 05:55:29 AM
Quote from: KammerNuss on March 17, 2009, 05:31:47 AM
On the subject of the minuet, or menuet, or the 'ole classical scherzo', as I like to call it.  I seem to greatly prefer Haydn's to Mozart's in this regard.  :-\

Haydn, I also find, is simply the only composer who can write minuets of consistent musical value.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 17, 2009, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: springrite on March 16, 2009, 10:04:28 PM
Menuet IS a menuet while minuetto is like saying "in the style of a minuet". The difference is subtle.

I'm not so sure if this is the difference. To my understanding, minuet and menuetto are the same thing, in French and Italian respectively, as Lethe suggested. Now, another thing is the expression "tempo di menuetto", which would be closer to what Springrite suggests.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 17, 2009, 05:52:49 AM
To an extent, I think this is as much continuum as any break from (say) JS Bach.

Improvisation had quite a role also in baroque. This makes me remember that this "control" over performances began - at least in opera - quite before 1800: one of Gluck's interests on the reform of stage music was to avoid excessive protagonism from the soloists, particularly coming from Italian opera. Part of this problem came from their flexibility for improvising ornamentations in an aria da capo or so.

The problem is that, from my perspective, Gluck's intervention can be assigned a parallel in the music of Beethoven or Hummel of half a century later, but the focus is not exactly the same. Gluck, by the restriction of these interventions, was looking for a greater dramatic effect, for the dramatic action was obviously suspended in an aria of several minutes long which repeated whole sections (Mozart's early operas show that this was very present even into the 1770s). In instrumental works, it's impossible to talk about dramatic effects proprio sensu, but it's evident that there was a progressive tendency to make every section as meaningful as possible. For this, it's not necessary to wait until Beethoven's or Rejcha's late classicism: for example, in middle classicism (I mean Mozart or Haydn) it's possible to see that recapitulation in sonata form could be very far from a simple copy of exposition. So I can just agree with Karl when he states:

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 17, 2009, 05:52:49 AM
I suppose that part of the shading into the Romantic from the Classical, is the allied idea of making every note count, in a sense.  A resistance to repeating oneself;  not that Mozart or Haydn (any more than Vivaldi or Bach) were 'churning out copy', of course. But a sort of attitude adjustment over time.

The attitude was indeed adjusted. The great thing is that there is great music before, during, and after the adjustment; and also that the rediscovery of the role of improvisation before 1800 is making performances of works composed in those times, in my opinion, much more exciting.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 17, 2009, 05:47:51 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 17, 2009, 05:25:39 AM
I am confused by the qualification at least into the early compositions here;  Beethoven employed sonata design practically to his last score. (To say nothing of Brahms and later . . . .)  Or am I misreading you?

Hello Karl - you know that I'm not in your professional 'league' here - what I meant is that Ludwig's early compositions were more attuned to those of Haydn & Mozart, using the 'sonata form' perfected arguably by those two composers; Beethoven after the Eroica Symphony in 1803 and beyond seemed to start evolving into a more Romantic style (whatever definition that may be - obviously, the 'emotional' interchanges between Gurn & Gabriel) - of course, he still used the 'sonata format' but you are a better interpreter of that issue that I can ever be -  :-\

I just find that the transition between the so-called Classic & Romantic Eras less a change in 'how' the music was constructed, i.e. using 'sonata form' or a variant vs. more of an emphasis on emotional interpretations & inter-relationships w/ other arts of the times, e.g. literature.

Now, Karl, why are you 'picking' on me in this discussion?  I'm just an old tenured Professor of Radiology?  Thanks for the comments - Dave  ;) :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2009, 06:00:47 PM
Hey, Dave,
Well, no winning now, you are under Karl's boot in perpetuity. ;D

QuoteI just find that the transition between the so-called Classic & Romantic Eras less a change in 'how' the music was constructed, i.e. using 'sonata form' or a variant vs. more of an emphasis on emotional interpretations & inter-relationships w/ other arts of the times, e.g. literature.

This is an interesting statement, and one I agree with (without the emotion I have expended on Gabriel, of course  :D ). I think that one can put it in simpler terms and say that Classical music is more objective (from the composer's POV) and Romantic more subjective.

And another thing I would add is that Classical music is a collaboration between composer and listener; i.e. - the listener is actually expected to think about what he is hearing and draw conclusions from that, while in Romantic music the composer has done the thinking for you and you just follow along wherever he wants to take you. To tie in with our ongoing line of discussion, this is one of the primary reasons why improvisation disappeared during this time and "play it as written" became the accepted style.

8)


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Listening to:
Heifetz / Piatagorsky / Rubinstein - Ravel Trio in a for Piano & Strings WoO 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 17, 2009, 06:02:28 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 17, 2009, 05:47:51 PM
Hello Karl - you know that I'm not in your professional 'league' here - what I meant is that Ludwig's early compositions were more attuned to those of Haydn & Mozart, using the 'sonata form' perfected arguably by those two composers; Beethoven after the Eroica Symphony in 1803 and beyond seemed to start evolving into a more Romantic style (whatever definition that may be - obviously, the 'emotional' interchanges between Gurn & Gabriel) - of course, he still used the 'sonata format' but you are a better interpreter of that issue that I can ever be -  :-\

I just find that the transition between the so-called Classic & Romantic Eras less a change in 'how' the music was constructed, i.e. using 'sonata form' or a variant vs. more of an emphasis on emotional interpretations & inter-relationships w/ other arts of the times, e.g. literature.

Now, Karl, why are you 'picking' on me in this discussion?  I'm just an old tenured Professor of Radiology?  Thanks for the comments - Dave  ;) :D

Anyway, Dave, it must be remembered that even if sonata form had an important role during classicism, it didn't represent the whole of music during this period. In larger instrumental works, it was generally used in the first movement, but in other movements it was not so often employed (excepting, perhaps, the cases of rondo-sonata form for the finales, but they are not general either).

Another contribution for the "emotion" of this thread... ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2009, 05:54:17 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 17, 2009, 06:02:28 PM
Anyway, Dave, it must be remembered that even if sonata form had an important role during classicism, it didn't represent the whole of music during this period. In larger instrumental works, it was generally used in the first movement, but in other movements it was not so often employed (excepting, perhaps, the cases of rondo-sonata form for the finales, but they are not general either).

Another contribution for the "emotion" of this thread... ;)

To fortify that statement a bit, this note on Mozart's Prague Symphony:

"The so-called Prague Symphony is sometimes referred to by Germans as the Symphony ohne Menuett ("without minuet"); while Mozart had written such symphonies in his earlier years, this is the only one among the half-dozen composed in his Viennese years. What is far more unusual is that all three movements are in sonata form, a phenomenon perhaps unduplicated among Classical symphonies. Mozart and others (esp. Haydn) did indeed write a few works where all movements are in sonata form, it was a rarity. In fact, the other names by which sonata form is called give some hints to that; the 2 most common are "sonata-allegro" and "first movement form". Even the rondo had a long history before it was incorporated and given the required structure (exposition - (sometimes) development - recapitulation) to be adopted into the family. Something that Beethoven later accomplished (with the Op 34, 35 and WoO 80) with the long-standing variations, which had existed since the late 17th century at least. :)

8)



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Listening to:
Helsingborg SO / Frank - Norman Symphony #2 in Eb Op 40
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2009, 04:47:45 PM
A couple of pages back the subject of clavichords came up (in connection with CPE Bach). Here is a picture of Mozart's own clavichord, courtesy of the Mozarteum/Salzburg:

(http://www.mozartforum.com/images/Mozart%27s_Clavichord.jpg)

As you can see, it is far more portable than a piano, even the relatively smaller piano of the late 18th century. It also produces a far lower volume, although not entirely quiet. But the great attraction to composers of the Empfindsang was that it was very responsive to the player and could produce a tone which was very expressive. Bach was a master at taking full advantage of this capability in his works. It was reported that audience members actually wept as he played!  I would be interested in getting the reactions of any of you who have been fortunate enough to hear one in person. I have several recordings of them, and find them to be an acquired taste, but once acquired, one that steadily grows. :)

8)

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Listening to:
A Journey Around C.P.E. Bach - Miklos Spanyi - Tangent Piano, Concerto Armonico - Bach, C.P.E. - Keyboard Concerto in c - H448 - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2009, 05:17:46 PM
Another picture of a clavichord, this one showing a view as to how it is strung, and for those who are mechanically inclined, into how it works.

(http://www.musikinstrumente-restaurierung.de/instrumente/clavichord.jpg)



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Listening to: Wölfl Op 28 - Laure Colladant - Track 4
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2009, 05:49:10 PM
The tangent piano (Tangentenflügel)

A few days ago, I was asked about the tangent piano. Other than typing out liner notes (which I hate), I was not able to find much. At the time, I described the sound as being, to me, like a harpsichord, even though it is a hammer strike and not a pluck.

I found this little article on tangent pianos. And as it turns out, I have 2 disks with music played on them. One is of 2 works by Mozart (with the lovely K 300g_395  Capriccio in C for Keyboard and K 315g_315a 8 Menuets for Keyboard) by Guy Penson (on Brilliant) and the other is Miklos Spanyi playing some concertos by C.P.E. Bach.

Here is an interesting article that I DID find, courtesy of AllExperts.com:

Tangent piano
The tangent piano is a very rare keyboard instrument that resembles a harpsichord and early pianos in design. It normally features five octaves of keys and the strings are acted upon by narrow wooden or metal slips when the keys are depressed.

History
In 1440, Arnault de Zwolle described what is believed to be the first keyboard instrument which used a tangent action. It is speculated that this was a clavichord or harpsichord. Pantaleon Hebenstreit is credited with the creation in 1705 of the first tangent piano. Christoph Gottlieb Schroter claimed that he invented the new tangent piano by letting blank harpsichord jacks hit the strings, also incorporating dampers into the action. A famous early piano maker, Gottfried Silbermann, was making 'pantaleons' by 1727. The Germans gave another name to the pantaleon, the Tangentenflügel and the English 'tangent piano.'

In 1777, Mozart referred to the tangent piano as the "Spattisches Klavier," after the maker of tangent pianos, Spath. Other names included the Italian cembalo angelico, and the French clavecin harmonieux et celeste. This is all evidence that the tangent piano spread throughout Europe. By the earliest decade of the 19th century, Spath tangent pianos were sent all over the globe and given a wide 6 octave range, which enabled it to compete with the piano. At the same time, the fortepiano began to eclipse the harpsichord and clavichord as the keyboard instrument of choice.

The creation of the tangent piano, and the fortepiano, was a result of an attempt to remedy the lack of dynamics in harpsichord sound. Both the tangent piano and fortepiano offered a variety of sound that was appealing to the changes in classical music, which featured more expressiveness and intensity than the harpsichord could offer. The tangent piano had a short life in popularity, and dropped off somewhere in the late 1700s or early 1800s. The fortepiano, however, buried the harpsichord in popularity by 1800. It then slowly evolved to the massive modern iron-framed giant of 88 keys. The tangent piano's popularity lasted for such a short time, that very little music was written for it. It is possible that CPE Bach's keyboard concerti were written for this instrument or for the fortepiano. In either case, the tangent piano is an appropriate choice for the keyboard instrument in the concerti. In addition, other sons of the famous German composer JS Bach wrote pieces expressly for the tangent piano. Miklos Spanyi recently released a recording for them on the tangent piano.

Tonal quality
The tangent piano has an unusual sound that fuses the qualities of the harpsichord and piano. The treble resembles the bright sound from a light action piano, and the bass resembles the bass from a harpsichord. The sound from instrument to instrument varies, as does one's personal description of the tangent piano's sound.

And a little picture. The few pictures I found weren't very revealing or the architecture, beyond that they resemble a clavichord with the strings running perpendicular to the keys:

(http://www.piano1111.com/zboard/data/archive_01/978425198.jpg)

Anyway, the best thing is to hear one. If you happen to have Brilliant's Mozart "Big Box", you can hear the Penson Mozart there. You may have done, and not even realized it was a tangent piano!  :)

8)


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Listening to:
Wölfl Op 28 - Laure Colladant - Track 7
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 20, 2009, 02:32:18 PM
Gurn - thanks for the notes on the Clavichord & Tangent Piano - next on my 'to do list' is an exploration of some of the recommendations already made on these instruments; I've picked up some Lute Harpsichord recently, so now must add a few discs of these 'other' keyboard instruments; BTW, for those wanting to experience the clavichord in a more modern recording, a favorite of mine from the time of release (shown below), i.e. Oscar Peterson & Joe Pass performing Porgy & Bess on clavichord & guitar, respectively - wonderful!  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MP86GGVZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 20, 2009, 02:52:38 PM
Pertinent to this post, a book & a composer from the transitional galant period:

Haydn, Mozart, and the Viennese School:  1740-1780 by Daniel Heartz (1995) - first volume of a triology!  :D  This is an inter-library load from the North Carolina School of the Arts (now part of the UNC state school system) in my home town; over 700+ pages - I'll not be reading this book 'word for word', the detail is just too much, but will be concentrating on some of the history and the major players in this 40 year period; but it is amazing 'how much' Heartz has gathered up in his research.

Today, read a long section of chapter 2 dedicated to the composer/teacher, Georg Christoph Wagenseil (1715-1777); his major influence occurred during the reign of Maria Theresa (Joseph II mother, i.e. the Emperor from 'Amadeus' fame), roughly 1740-60 (and later), but the guy apparently wrote a TON of music of all types, including much instrumental compositions, little of which seems to have been recorded - the only CD that I own is also shown below - Symphonies w/ Michi Gaigg & the L'Orfeo Barockorchester - there are 5 symphonies on the disc (numbered WV from 351 to 441; obviously much more in-between, and before/after) - these works are not 'heavy weights' like later Haydn & Mozart, but apparently Wagenseil was an important influence on Haydn & JC Bach (and likely many others) - would be very interested in some of this other works and recordings suggestions, although I don't believe a lot more exists!  Now, before & after the pages in this book by Heartz, a dozen or more composers quite famous in Vienna at the times were listed (again, I skipped over these 'unknowns' to me) and I checked Amazon & Arkiv, virtually nothing - boy, this is one city in a half century period - I just cannot imagine the AMOUNT of music that has been lost - mind boggling!  :o


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MNT1D1APL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/495227124_NsaGU-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2009, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 20, 2009, 02:52:38 PM
Pertinent to this post, a book & a composer from the transitional galant period:

Haydn, Mozart, and the Viennese School:  1740-1780 by Daniel Heartz (1995) - first volume of a triology!  :D  This is an inter-library load from the North Carolina School of the Arts (now part of the UNC state school system) in my home town; over 700+ pages - I'll not be reading this book 'word for word', the detail is just too much, but will be concentrating on some of the history and the major players in this 40 year period; but it is amazing 'how much' Heartz has gathered up in his research.

Today, read a long section of chapter 2 dedicated to the composer/teacher, Georg Christoph Wagenseil (1715-1777); his major influence occurred during the reign of Maria Theresa (Joseph II mother, i.e. the Emperor from 'Amadeus' fame), roughly 1740-60 (and later), but the guy apparently wrote a TON of music of all types, including much instrumental compositions, little of which seems to have been recorded - the only CD that I own is also shown below - Symphonies w/ Michi Gaigg & the L'Orfeo Barockorchester - there are 5 symphonies on the disc (numbered WV from 351 to 441; obviously much more in-between, and before/after) - these works are not 'heavy weights' like later Haydn & Mozart, but apparently Wagenseil was an important influence on Haydn & JC Bach (and likely many others) - would be very interested in some of this other works and recordings suggestions, although I don't believe a lot more exists!  Now, before & after the pages in this book by Heartz, a dozen or more composers quite famous in Vienna at the times were listed (again, I skipped over these 'unknowns' to me) and I checked Amazon & Arkiv, virtually nothing - boy, this is one city in a half century period - I just cannot imagine the AMOUNT of music that has been lost - mind boggling!  :o

Interesting post, Dave. I've wanted that book since I first saw it 5 or 6 years ago. My local library wasn't able to get a copy of it (but they aren't affiliated with a major university either). Darn the bad luck... >:(

I don't have any Wagenseil, not even as little as you do. But he features prominently in several books and essays I have on Haydn. As you note, he is a big early influence. Your mention of a lot of unknown music from this period in Vienna reminds me that in Zaslaw's "Mozart's Symphonies" book, he mentions that while looking at manuscripts in Vienna, there were in that one collection (Friends of Music) literally thousands of unknown manuscripts of just symphonies from the latter half of the 18th century. Surely a conservative estimate of 3% that had solid musical worth even would make for lots of new and interesting listening. :-\

8)

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Listening to:
Schubert: Impromptus; Moments musicaux - Lambert Orkis - Impromptu D899: No. 1 in c
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 20, 2009, 06:13:01 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2009, 04:52:20 PM
Interesting post, Dave. I've wanted that book since I first saw it 5 or 6 years ago. My local library wasn't able to get a copy of it (but they aren't affiliated with a major university either). Darn the bad luck... >:(

I don't have any Wagenseil, not even as little as you do. But he features prominently in several books and essays I have on Haydn. As you note, he is a big early influence. Your mention of a lot of unknown music from this period in Vienna reminds me that in Zaslaw's "Mozart's Symphonies" book, he mentions that while looking at manuscripts in Vienna, there were in that one collection (Friends of Music) literally thousands of unknown manuscripts of just symphonies from the latter half of the 18th century. Surely a conservative estimate of 3% that had solid musical worth even would make for lots of new and interesting listening....

Gurn - believe that you would like that 'sole' Wagenseil disc that I own - but regarding his pretty much dominance as the court 'sweetheart' composer during the reign of Joesph II's Mother, Maria Theresa, he seems to have been almost completely forgotten!  And that single disc that I own is quite a pleasant listen, and an instructive 'bridge' between the Baroque-Classical periods - boy, what a lost!

But, I have that book opened @ the moment and just to mention some of the composers around the time of Wagenseil (and again they must have written hundreds of compositions, both vocal, instrumental, and combined) - Georg Reutter (who recruited the young Joseph Haydn as a singer), Franz Tuma, Matthias Monn, Wenzel Birck, Joseph Ziegler, and Schloger, Starzer, Asplmayr - and even many others mentioned more briefly in these pages - again, I'll be unable to really read this DETAILED book thoroughly but the author has certainly done a superlative job!

I'll try to periodically 'report' the important details of those composers which have been recorded so we can at least hear their music; so far, Wagenseil is the best choice, so far through the second chapter - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2009, 06:22:41 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 20, 2009, 06:13:01 PM
Gurn - believe that you would like that 'sole' Wagenseil disc that I own - but regarding his pretty much dominance as the court 'sweetheart' composer during the reign of Joesph II's Mother, Maria Theresa, he seems to have been almost completely forgotten!  And that single disc that I own is quite a pleasant listen, and an instructive 'bridge' between the Baroque-Classical periods - boy, what a lost!

But, I have that book opened @ the moment and just to mention some of the composers around the time of Wagenseil (and again they must have written hundreds of compositions, both vocal, instrumental, and combined) - Georg Reutter (who recruited the young Joseph Haydn as a singer), Franz Tuma, Matthias Monn, Wenzel Birck, Joseph Ziegler, and Schloger, Starzer, Asplmayr - and even many others mentioned more briefly in these pages - again, I'll be unable to really read this DETAILED book thoroughly but the author has certainly done a superlative job!

I'll try to periodically 'report' the important details of those composers which have been recorded so we can at least hear their music; so far, Wagenseil is the best choice, so far through the second chapter - Dave  :)

If you'd like, I can read it for you and send you a nice summary... ;D

I have maybe 1 work each from half of those guys (like Monn and Tuma, for example), but mostly not. Just names in books. :(      I did discover that I have 1 work by Wagenseil, BTW. It is his trombone concerto, on a disk with several others from the 1760's (on Naxos, and I have it twice in fact, once on ... ummm, rats, can't remember. Hungaroton, I think). Anyway, I just listened to it again and it was as nice as I remembered. Anyway, not much from a guy who wrote so much, and who was such an influence on his peers. :-\

8)

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Listening to:
MYSLIVECEK: Symphonies - I. Allegro Con Spirito - Symphony in Bb, F.30: 1.Allegro con spirito
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 20, 2009, 06:49:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2009, 06:22:41 PM
If you'd like, I can read it for you and send you a nice summary... ;D

I have maybe 1 work each from half of those guys (like Monn and Tuma, for example), but mostly not. Just names in books. :(      I did discover that I have 1 work by Wagenseil, BTW. It is his trombone concerto, on a disk with several others from the 1760's (on Naxos, and I have it twice in fact, once on ... ummm, rats, can't remember. Hungaroton, I think). Anyway, I just listened to it again and it was as nice as I remembered. Anyway, not much from a guy who wrote so much, and who was such an influence on his peers. :-\


Well, as bolded above, the book is due back by mid-April!  If I owned it, I'd probably read a chapter throughly a week at a time, but don't have that luxury -  :-\  The next chapter is completely on Gluck - yes I know that he was important but may be a 'skip' for me, BUT, then comes 'early' Haydn - the detail in this book is just phenomenal (now I can relate to that as a medical educator), but this book is really for an advanced musical college course; however, OTOH, just may be right up your alley!  ;) :D   Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2009, 06:54:04 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 20, 2009, 06:49:10 PM
Well, as bolded above, the book is due back by mid-April!  If I owned it, I'd probably read a chapter throughly a week at a time, but don't have that luxury -  :-\  The next chapter is completely on Gluck - yes I know that he was important but may be a 'skip' for me, BUT, then comes 'early' Haydn - the detail in this book is just phenomenal (now I can relate to that as a medical educator), but this book is really for an advanced musical college course; however, OTOH, just may be right up your alley!  ;) :D   Dave

Gluck, eh? Sounds more up Gabriel's alley. :)  But yes, for me the more detail the merrier. When it comes down to it, I guess I'll just have to scrape up $250 or so and get the entire set. True, that's a lot of audio music to miss out on, but it's plenty of history to make up for it. :)

8)


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Listening to:
Cembalokonzerte D-Dur, F-Dur, Sinfonie Nr. 31 - Haydn, Joseph - Cembalokonzert D-Dur: Un poco Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Anne on March 21, 2009, 12:03:33 AM
If you're going to skip Gluck, I would recommend just one DVD - Orfeo ed Euridice It is very easy to listen to and very enjoyable. 

When I first learned that opera, I was playing it constantly because the music was so beautiful.  Somehow, Janet Baker, a very famous and widely respected singer and the orchestra - I can't praise the performance enough.  It was done during the Glyndebourne Festival.  It uses the Glyndebourne festival with Raymond Leppard conducting the London Philharmonic.  British mezzo-soprano, Janet Baker, chose to retire from the operatic stage singing the title role in Sir Peter Hall's acclaimed production of Orfeo ed Euridce.

TV Times said that the performance was one of her finest and most moving portrayals.
The Sunday Telegraph said it was a must for opera-goers.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2009, 06:07:38 AM
Quote from: Anne on March 21, 2009, 12:03:33 AM
If you're going to skip Gluck, I would recommend just one DVD - Orfeo ed Euridice It is very easy to listen to and very enjoyable. 

When I first learned that opera, I was playing it constantly because the music was so beautiful.  Somehow, Janet Baker, a very famous and widely respected singer and the orchestra - I can't praise the performance enough.  It was done during the Glyndebourne Festival.  It uses the Glyndebourne festival with Raymond Leppard conducting the London Philharmonic.  British mezzo-soprano, Janet Baker, chose to retire from the operatic stage singing the title role in Sir Peter Hall's acclaimed production of Orfeo ed Euridce.

TV Times said that the performance was one of her finest and most moving portrayals.
The Sunday Telegraph said it was a must for opera-goers.

Thank you for that, Anne. Although Dave was actually talking about skipping the chapter on Gluck in that book he got. :)  I have read quite a bit about him myself, and I think his music is more interesting than HE is, if you take my meaning. That looks like a nice performance though, and could well end up on the shelf, even though I like more contemporary performances as a rule. ;)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 21, 2009, 06:30:00 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2009, 06:07:38 AM
Thank you for that, Anne. Although Dave was actually talking about skipping the chapter on Gluck in that book he got. :)  I have read quite a bit about him myself, and I think his music is more interesting than HE is, if you take my meaning. That looks like a nice performance though, and could well end up on the shelf, even though I like more contemporary performances as a rule. ;)


Hi Anne & Gurn - yes, I was planning to just 'skim' through the Gluck chapter; I've read much on this composer & his role in Vienna in the 18th century in the past, but the  Heartz book is just too long to 'delve over' every word - in fact, I did look at the Gluck chapter an hour ago - over 80 pages w/ 20+ devoted to Orfeo ed Euridice, so for those into this composer & this particular 'famous' work, almost a mini-book!  BTW, the opening on 'Musical Life in Vienna' spends another 20+ pages on the 'theaters' in Vienna duing the time period covered.  This book (and his other two are just as long, if not longer!) is a smörgåsbord, just so much that one can 'eat & digest' w/o collapsing!  ;) ;D

P.S. Now onto the 'early' Haydn chapter later today!  In fact, the box below just arrived yesterday, I'll start w/ the first disc!  8)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/495227117_X7oSR-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2009, 06:34:57 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 21, 2009, 06:30:00 AM
Hi Anne & Gurn - yes, I was planning to just 'skim' through the Gluck chapter; I've read much on this composer & his role in Vienna in the 18th century in the past, but the  Heartz book is just too long to 'delve over' every word - in fact, I did look at the Gluck chapter an hour ago - over 80 pages w/ 20+ devoted to Orfeo ed Euridice, so for those into this composer & this particular 'famous' work, almost a mini-book!  BTW, the opening on 'Musical Life in Vienna' spends another 20+ pages on the 'theaters' in Vienna duing the time period covered.  This book (and his other two are just as long, if not longer!) is a smörgåsbord, just so much that one can 'eat & digest' w/o collapsing!  ;) ;D

P.S. Now onto the 'early' Haydn chapter later today!  In fact, the box below just arrived yesterday, I'll start w/ the first disc!  8)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/495227117_X7oSR-M.jpg)

Ha! You DID commit, you rascal. And you will start with Symphony "A"?   IIRC, you will recognize that as one of the Op 1 or 2 string quartets... Of course, my mind is failing and I may be wrong... :)  Enjoy!

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: knight66 on March 21, 2009, 08:03:00 AM
I am aware that Gluck's reform operas had a great deal of influence for other opera composers; for instance, Berlioz, but was he influential on subsequent orchestral or instrumental writing? One of the 'reforms' he and some others introduced into opera, was the idea of the orchestration reflecting the moods and emotions within the opera.

In my mind it seems a short step from this kind of colouring of the full orchestral sound to what we think of as programme music. Did this development in opera lead to orchestral programme music, or am I pushing the idea too far?

Right now, although I can think of earlier pieces that evoke nature and set a mood; Icannot think of any attempt to tell a story, take a journey, using purely orchestral means?

Mike
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2009, 08:17:23 AM
Quote from: knight on March 21, 2009, 08:03:00 AM
I am aware that Gluck's reform operas had a great deal of influence for other opera composers; for instance, Berlioz, but was he influential on subsequent orchestral or instrumental writing? One of the 'reforms' he and some others introduced into opera, was the idea of the orchestration reflecting the moods and emotions within the opera.

In my mind it seems a short step from this kind of colouring of the full orchestral sound to what we think of as programme music. Did this development in opera lead to orchestral programme music, or am I pushing the idea too far?

Right now, although I can think of earlier pieces that evoke nature and set a mood; Icannot think of any attempt to tell a story, take a journey, using purely orchestral means?

Mike

Interesting idea, Mike. I'm not sure how far forward you are looking into the future here, at least to Berlioz, I guess. But the concept of programme music, per se, was a reflection of composers reacting to German Romanticism in literature and criticism (and philosophy). But as far as technique for accomplishing this end, Gluck may well have been in the background. There was a long history of composers trying to represent physical phenomena and mental states in music, but not always successfully. Perhaps Gluck developed some means of making this more possible?

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: knight66 on March 21, 2009, 08:28:22 AM
I only mentioned Berlioz because he was not even marginally a contemporary of Gluck and was very explicit in his writings about Gluck's influence. I was really wondering more whether there were any younger contemporaries of Gluck who adopted any of his orchestral ideas away from the opera house.

The great Baroque writers certainly orchestrated carefully, but did not tie in the idea of a storyline into orchestral music. I know it blossomed in the Romantic period; but was no one experimenting with the ideas before then?

Mike

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2009, 08:37:30 AM
No, I think the idea of program music was around for a long time. Here is some quick info that i stole from Wiki (to save having to pull books and type a lot.. ;D )

History

Examples of early program music can be found in the baroque period. Examples include Vivaldi's Four Seasons concertos, and Froberger's keyboard works. It began to become more common in the 1800s. Since then, it has grown in popularity and was used for the romantic era of the 1870s. From then on it has been used for much more than music; it has been used for dancing, singing and different types of music.

Renaissance period

Composers of the Renaissance wrote a fair amount of program music, especially for the harpsichord, including works such as Martin Peerson's The Fall of the Leafe and William Byrd's The Battell. For the latter work, the composer provided this written description of the sections: "Souldiers sommons, marche of footemen, marche of horsmen, trumpetts, Irishe marche, bagpipe and the drone, flute and the droome, marche to the fighte, the battels be joyned, retreat, galliarde for the victorie."

Classical era

Program music was perhaps less often composed in the Classical era. At that time, perhaps more than any other, music achieved drama from its own internal resources, notably in works written in sonata form. It is thought, however, that a number of Joseph Haydn's earlier symphonies may be program music; for example, the composer once said that one of his earlier symphonies represents "a dialogue between God and the Sinner". It is not known which of his symphonies Haydn was referring to. Another Classical-era composer, Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, wrote a series of symphonies based on Ovid's Metamorphoses (not to be confused with Twentieth-Century composer Benjamin Britten's Six Metamorphoses after Ovid).

For your contemporary question, I was going to mention Ditters anyway, although he cropped up in there too. There is likely little doubt that Ditters was influenced by Gluck. They were both contemporary in Vienna and undoubtedly knew each other very well. And Ditters, although not enjoyed as much today as he might deserve (just me and Poju, AFAIK), was very much enjoyed in 18th century Vienna, and was quite influential among his peers. :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: knight66 on March 21, 2009, 08:49:07 AM
Interesting thanks; I did wonder whether The Four Seasons is really programme music. Perhaps so. The Byrd is purely a solo instrumental piece for harpsichord. I wonder whether the 'colour' evokes and supports the narrative? I suspect that the story relies more within the form of the music.

The programme idea looks thin on the ground when compared to what the Romantic composers did with it.

Mike
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2009, 08:55:07 AM
Quote from: knight on March 21, 2009, 08:49:07 AM
Interesting thanks; I did wonder whether The Four Seasons is really programme music. Perhaps so. The Byrd is purely a solo instrumental piece for harpsichord. I wonder whether the 'colour' evokes and supports the narrative? I suspect that the story relies more within the form of the music.

The programme idea looks thin on the ground when compared to what the Romantic composers did with it.

Mike

Oh, no doubt whatsoever that the 4 Seasons is programmatic. You should have been reading that brilliant thread that was on the old forum about it. ;D

I don't know Byrd, or any of the other Renaissance composers (except Purcell, and then just a bit) so i can't say.

But there is little doubt that there was a mass flowering of the concept in the later Classico-Romantic. The whole idea supports the Romantic concept that the composer should do all your thinking for you, and that music should be far less interactive. Two-edged sword there, eh?  :)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: knight66 on March 21, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
Yes, The Four Seasons, I have had a look, I had forgotten how detailed the programme there was.

I think also that there is the matter of so much pre Romantic music being written to be background music, or at least often treated as such. Clearly a lot of Baroque was meant to be attended to, but a lot was salon music, or occasional music. When did we get to the point when the music was the 'occasion'; as against often accompaniment to the occasion?

Mike
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2009, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: knight on March 21, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
Yes, The Four Seasons, I have had a look, I had forgotten how detailed the programme there was.

I think also that there is the matter of so much pre Romantic music being written to be background music, or at least often treated as such. Clearly a lot of Baroque was meant to be attended to, but a lot was salon music, or occasional music. When did we get to the point when the music was the 'occasion'; as against often accompaniment to the occasion?

Mike

Oh well, now that's just mean. :'(   But getting to your point (if it wasn't stabbing me in the heart), I suppose that "music as the occasion" was always the case with church music. How it spread out from there (opera isn't an exception, it was always the singing and not the music that drove opera until Mozart) is less clear. Certainly by the 1780's the symphony, for example, had transcended its beginnings as an overture and occasional piece to being a piéce de resistance. It is quite clear that by the time Haydn arrived in London that his symphonies were an occasion. I would posit that the rise of publicly accessible concerts (like the Concerts Spirituel in Paris and the J.C. Bach/Abel concerts in London) were a main force in creating what you describe. So that runs the date back to the 1760's....

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Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 899 #1 Impromptu in c for Fortepiano - Allegro molto moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2009, 05:23:47 PM
Concerning our recent discussion on improvisation, I pulled out an old essay on the topic written by clarinetist and author Dan Leeson. It is quite lengthy, so I will only quote one section of it here. It pertains directly to the subject at hand, although the works he is talking about are specifically the Clarinet Quintet and Clarinet Concerto of Mozart. The points he is making are valid across the board for music from the Classical Era (and even back into the Baroque in some aspects).

Why Spontaneous Improvisation?
Let me begin with a discussion of performance practice preceded by a single caveat: the operative word is "spontaneous." When performing music of this era, whatever purposes are served by improvising are defeated if the melodic alterations are not instinctive, impetuous, and different from performance to performance.
There is a staggering amount of material dealing with the subject of performance practice, a musicological domain that concerns itself with the problems of translating music notation into sound. The field of study exists because the way music is written down is insufficiently precise to describe exact execution requirements. This is complicated by assumptions that composers make when creating handwritten scores.

Composers, even contemporary ones, are explicit only with directions that are not absolutely obvious to an informed, contemporary performer. Yet, because these assumptions change with time, what requires no explicit direction in one era is not at all obvious to a later one. In the eighteenth century, for example, the first measure of every movement of any Mozart composition would automatically be played loudly if no dynamic was present. That was the assumption: no opening dynamic meant "forte" and every professional eighteenth century performer knew it. This standard of performing behavior can be seen in Mozart's autograph scores because he never wrote opening dynamics for any movement of any work unless it was to be executed other than loudly. Today, musicians no longer assume that "forte" is an inaugural default, so every opening dynamic must be explicitly specified.

In performing Mozart's music, we are fortunate that a large body of tradition has passed directly and uninterruptedly from his time to the present. This is increasingly less true the earlier music is traced back in time. For example, for certain epochs even the knowledge of the kinds of instruments used in music performance have been lost. Yet, despite the continuity of Mozartean tradition, there are many ways in which today's performances of Mozart's music differ from those of his era. An obvious example is the change in character of instrumental sound through changes in the technology of musical instruments, medium (box to mpingo to rose to cocabola woods, for example), and manufacturing process.
Definitions of symbols have also changed and the carrying out of Mozart's directions in an eighteenth-century manner is a challenge that contemporary players must deal with continuously. Common, everyday symbols must be interpreted, not in light of what they mean today, but what they meant around 1750-1800.

Other performance practices remain unclear despite continued investigation. This places performers in the position of not knowing precisely what to do in certain circumstances. An example of such a knowledge gap between ourselves and the eighteenth century has to do with the playing of minuets.

The minuet doesn't get much attention from clarinet players. That's not surprising. We don't play a lot of them. As such, they are generally thought of as the movement that separates the interesting ones. Today, as in the third movement of Mozart's clarinet quintet, K. 581, the convention is to play minuets in the following way: first time through, all repeats; on the da capo, no repeats. No one need tell experienced players this, for they play minuets this way automatically. This approach is twentieth-century performance practice for minuets.

But did Mozart and his contemporaries play minuets this way, or did a different practice exist until, as the function of such repeats receded into obscurity, the tradition changed? Here is a hypothetical scenario that explains the evolution.
As spontaneous improvisation fell out of fashion, instrumentalists lost facility in the skill. As a result, they no longer viewed the repeated sections as implicit invitations to improvise. Without improvisatory material to create variety, the multiple unadorned repetitions were considered boring, a problem whose solution lay in reducing the number of repeats. Thus, today's performance practice for minuets came about because of the extinction of another performance practice, namely that of spontaneous improvisation.

"Extinction" is probably too strong a word. This eighteenth-century practice is being revived by a few, leading-edge, avant garde instrumentalists (strange terms to use with respect to Mozart performance) and even a clarinet player, here and there. Colin Lawson, Charles Neidich, Larry Combs, and Tony Pay all improvise during their performances of K. 622. At a series of concerts at which I happened to be a participant for a performance of Mozart's Masonic Funeral Music, Mark Brandenburg of San Francisco showed an outstanding capacity for spontaneous inventiveness during his several performances of the same work.

But the fact is that the practice is far from being universally accepted, either in the performing community or by the listening public. Strong objections to any efforts to improvise are heard in many quarters. There is little agreement about where and when and how to improvise, or which performers are involved. Even less agreement can be found for what constitutes good or stylistically correct improvisation. Few music schools anywhere in the world train performers in the fundamentals of classical improvisation, which means that those instrumentalists who attempt it have almost no guidance on how to execute it effectively. There are no practical books that deal comprehensively with the subject, and only a few deal with it even at a theoretical level. In effect, little help exists in learning the craft.

Thus the potential inherent in spontaneous improvisation has not been demonstrated on a broad scale since it ceased being a workaday performance practice in the early 19th century. And, because the practice has ceased to be part of the contemporary performer's kit bag of tools, it is necessary to remind players why the practice ever existed at all; that is, what is the purpose of improvising during the execution of a work from the classic period? That I do now.
It is an article of faith that every musician wants his or her performance of any Mozart composition to be fresh and original. The reviewer who describes an interpretation with the pejorative "stale and unoriginal" signs a death warrant to a career. Unfortunately, except for the eternal freshness and originality of the music itself, there are few practical tools that help a performer achieve that goal. Whatever the important abstractions of personality, presence, sensitivity, energy, and temperament are to getting freshness in performance, they are God-given and difficult to summon on demand. Even those fortunate enough to possess such evanescent qualities may find it impossible to invoke them at will. So what can one do: give each clarinet solo that you play a periodic sabbatical so that it can get its batteries recharged? Should one take a nap on the afternoon of a performance, or enroll in a graduate seminar on "How to get fresh and original performances every time?", or visit an astrologer, or chant mantras, or eat vegetarian?
That the skill of improvising on an ongoing basis was a part of most eighteenth-century musician's repertoire of tools - like reading music or transposing - can neither be denied nor ignored. Such improvisations consisted of spontaneous changes to the pitches, rhythms, phrasings, and even harmonies of a melodic line at appropriate places in the composition.

Instantaneous invention of stylistically-characteristic, high-quality music is not an inborn skill, even though innate talent is obligatory. Such skill must be developed through study and practice. (That's an interesting oxymoron: practicing spontaneous improvisations.) On-the-spot creativity was one of several standards by which the listening public measured performers, and limitations were placed on the careers of eighteenth-century musicians who did not have that skill. Each performance consisted of a synergism: a one-of-a-kind mixture of the composer's architecture and the spontaneous decorations of one or more performers. The resulting creation of an absolutely unique performance was an important reason for improvising, then as now.

In effect, spontaneous improvisation is a tool that makes every performance unique. Its use makes it impossible for any two players to execute K. 622 the same way, as is, sadly, so often the case today. The tool may be likened to the thing that makes a hockey game interesting: once the puck is thrown down, one has no idea what is going to happen. And that is one of the principal reasons why eighteenth-century musicians improvised: it made every performance of a work measurably different from every other performance of that same work. As such, it was a tool used to create freshness and originality, the very thing that we all want to have in our performances.

The words "ornamentation" and "improvisation" are frequently used synonymously. But the late Frederick Neumann provided welcome help in distinguishing between them in his book "Ornamentation and Improvisation in Mozart," Princeton University Press, 1986.

"Ornamentation" deals with composer created decorations whose presence are indicated by specific symbols. These include, for example, grace notes, mordants, and trills. In studying ornamentation, one attempts to establish an unambiguous interpretation for each composer-created symbol in all possible contexts. The bottom line is that ornamentation is the province of the composer. The player simply executes what is written, hopefully interpreting the ornamentation symbols correctly.

"Improvisation" on the other hand is used to describe performer created changes to melodic lines. The listener's implicit assumption, though mostly inaccurate, is that improvisation is always spontaneous. Here, the bottom line is that improvisation is the province of the performer whose cue on where and when to improvise is taken from clues deposited by the composer and found within the text of the music.

Many who accept improvisation, even if only at a conceptual level, think of it as a thing reserved for a soloist in a concerto. A more assertive opinion holds that improvisation is available to anyone who happens to own the principle melodic line at an improvisable point of the composition. An even more aggressive view would point out that, in Don Giovanni, for example, the orchestral clarinetist has several significant opportunities for improvisation within arias, Il mio tesoro, for example, which has an important presentation of the solo line some time before the tenor's entry. The negative attitude with respect to spontaneous improvisation has several origins, one of which can be found in the musical attitudes of the Romantic era. There, spontaneous decorations for music written during that epoch were seriously discouraged, if not outright forbidden by the performance practices then in vogue. While, by convention, it is suitable for any epoch implicitly to establish its own performance practices, it may not be correct to apply the same protocol to music from earlier eras. The Romantic period had strong views on the role of the performer and they separated the world of creation - the business of the composer - from the world of execution - the business of the player. This attitude generated a self-fulfilling prophecy; i.e., as the practice was discouraged, performers lost facility in the skill. Thus, there existed a double inhibition against improvisation: lack of universal support for the practice and lack of craft in its execution. Today, the practice is sufficiently rejected that few performers realize that it was once a polished art form; and so few can do it effectively that spontaneous improvisation has ceased being an operative performance practice.
Another source of the negative attitude with respect to spontaneous improvisation is due, in part, to the excesses of the past. These past immoderations resulted not in the intensification of the expressive force and character of the music, but in a tawdry demonstration of performer virtuosity. Anyone who has heard a cornet solo play "The Carnival of Venice Variations," for example, hears the sad, ultimate fate of the once great art of spontaneous improvisation for in such action, the center of gravity is changed from the music's content to the player's virtuosity.

Today, many clarinetists assert that spontaneous improvisation serves no useful purpose; that it is, on the contrary, destructive to the music to which it is applied. This assertion bespeaks a lack of awareness of the role of the performer in music of the classic period and presumes that no one, no matter how gifted, can improve on the music of Mozart, much less with a craft that requires instantaneous creativity. That is a respectful but debatable position. And in any case it is irrelevant since the main purpose of improvisation is not the improvement of melodic lines. Its purpose, one to which Mozart personally subscribed both as a composer and a performer, is to change the role of the player and singer from that of a recreator of the music of others to a partner and participant in the creative process.

I would contrast such musical behavior with that of the dance where improvisatory and inventive movement is encouraged. Both the theater and the visual arts are filled with opportunities for enterprising self-expression through the medium of improvisation. Only music is taught as something that, as far as performance is concerned, is a finished art.
This is the historically inaccurate perspective of Mozart that we all carry; that is, it is our duty only to recreate it beautifully, not to consider each performance of it as an opportunity for further creation. Such a negative attitude is so pervasive that even Neumann speaks against it, a strange attitude in light of his persuasive evidence on the importance of the tool in Mozart's music. Neumann's view seems to accept only Mozart's spontaneous improvisations, presumably because he did it well. But, continues Neumann, modern-day performers should not improvise because they will probably do it badly.

With this attitude, it can be guaranteed that performers will never improvise well, or at all. How could it be otherwise? We are not trained in how, where, or when to improvise. Most players and singers are not sure of the historic rationale or musical purpose of improvisation. And Neumann, in this era's most important book on the subject, says that we should avoid the practice because we won't do it well. In the face of this, it is surprising that any player would even attempt it.
But improvising badly is no reason for not improvising. Instead, it is a reason to do more of it. How else are we going to learn to get it right? In addition to study and practice, quality improvisation requires enormous skill coupled with considerable imagination, great daring, and a special kind of courage. It is almost certain that anyone trying to learn the craft is going to be clumsy and inelegant early-on, putting too much in any single improvisation, doing it in the wrong places, or committing grave stylistic errors.

When I want to show an example of the effect of spontaneous improvisation, I am most often forced to demonstrate and explain it through the medium of jazz. Alternatively, I can point to Gospel music which thrives on improvisatory performances, or Jewish liturgical music, an art form that has a millennium of improvisatory tradition. Or to make the matter very personal for clarinetists, one need look no further than the performing genius of Giora Feidman. There one hears the excitement that elegant spontaneous improvisations accomplished by a master can bring to music.
Quality spontaneous improvisation does not come easily even to jazz players, for whom excellence in the skill is bread and butter. But at least they have the advantage of being able to study the craft with teachers who know something about it and its performance traditions. Many music schools offer credit courses in jazz improvisation, clear evidence that it is an acquirable skill.

Interestingly, symphonic performers who played jazz early in their careers, but who stopped it for one reason or another - for example, conductor/pianist Andre Previn or clarinetist Larry Combs - find that they must work at it before achieving the same degree of improvisatory excellence that was once theirs. Like most things, improvisatory skills will atrophy if not used.


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Listening to:
Shostakovich Sym10 - Christoph Von Dohnanyi; Cleveland Orchestra - 3rd mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 23, 2009, 02:28:35 AM
Fascinating article - thanks Gurn!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 24, 2009, 01:57:34 PM
Haydn, Mozart, & the Viennese School, 1740-1780 by Daniel Heartz (1995) - first part of a trilogy w/ this one going for 700+ pages - this well research & written tome is much beyond my meager musical abilities & endurance; there is plenty of historic facts (and correction of previously published mis-information), but much of the book concentrates on detailed analysis of the compositions, esp. those earlier ones by Haydn - now this is a book that I borrowed from the library for a month - if I had the time (and the musical knowledge to understand the author's comments), then I'd sit down w/ the music playing while reading the detailed explanations - this would take months, at least for me; bottom line - if you want to read this book, first take a look at it in the library - you may change your mind -  ;) :D  This is an extremely long and erudite presentation likely most useful for graduate music classes - I'm not planning on exploring the other two (and longer) tomes of this vast trilogy.

But, this book (and I'm sure the others in the trio) are certainly pertinent to this thread, i.e. the nature of these musical periods, esp. of the 18th century and their transitions at the beginning and end of that century.  Currently, reading a chapter (honestly, parts of a chapter -  :-\) on Mozart, and his first 'continental' excursion - in the 1760s at the age of 7 y/o or so, he and family were in Paris and came to know several 'German' expatriots who were quite popular in the French captial - Johann Eckard (1735-1809) - dates almost matching those of Haydn & Johann Schobert (c.1735-1767); so, I was curious about recordings, and I do own a handful of discs:

Eckard - just one of solo keyboard works w/ Arthur Schoonderwoerd on the fortepiano; although in the liner notes (written by the performer), Eckard uniquely (and may have been a first?) indicated various terms for nuances of color/loudness, largely expecting these works to be played on a variety of instruments offering different playing options, i.e. harpsichord, clavichord, tangent piano, etc.

Schobert - works for harpsichord, violin, & cello w/ the 'Four Nations Ensemble' (Appel, Brown, & O'Sullivan) -  :D

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 24, 2009, 02:31:29 PM
One of the most delightful CD series available is The Romantic Piano Concerto in Hyperion. Some days ago I was thinking if it would be possible to develop such an idea concerning the classical era. It is obvious that Mozart's and Beethoven's contributions are elementary to understand this form during this period, but those magnificent works do not represent the whole of it, so I thought it would be interesting to mention classical piano concertos written by other composers.

I would like to mention the piano concertos composed by Hyacinthe Jadin (1776-1800), a French composer who died unfortunately too young. Jadin is a composer whose music sounds incredibly Mozartian: beautiful ideas, excellent developments and an unexplainable nostalgic feeling even in major mode works. I have listened to two of his three piano concertos, and both of them would surely deserve a better consideration within this repertoire. Alas, the name of Jadin is seldom known, even among music lovers, and his works are even less often played.

The second piano concerto, in D minor, was composed in 1796; it is a very tragical work, with a first movement whose main motive sounds as a cry of inner despair. The luminous, peaceful second subject provides a fascinating contrast. The piano writing is quite particular; in parts, it doesn't remember me of any other composer of this era (for instance, towards the end of the movement there is a very original sort of bird song). The textures are as pure as they can be, which, curiously, reinforces the sadness of the music.

The third piano concerto, in A major, composed in 1798, is quite a different work. A bold one. Jadin decided to write a concerto in two movements instead of the usual three, and the first one is admirable in its idea: after an orchestral exposition of about three minutes, the piano enters, not for reexposing the subjects as it should normally be, but for "singing" a rather short recitative whose delicacy is worthy of the greatest admiration. When the piano exposes the subjects after the recitative, the effect is impressive: they sound as if they had never been played, with a freshness and a beautiful simplicity rarely achieved even during classicism. The second movement, on the other hand, presents very different virtues: in a very disguised way, Jadin presents music of popular inspiration.

I know just one recording of these works, in the label Forlane, conducted by Gérard Streletski and played by Wen-Ying Tseng in a modern piano. Even if it is not an ideal recording, it is a very enjoyable one (I'm sure it would work better with a fortepiano, but to have at least one recording is good news).

Quote from: SonicMan on March 24, 2009, 01:57:34 PM
Haydn, Mozart, & the Viennese School, 1740-1780 by Daniel Heartz (1995) - first part of a trilogy w/ this one going for 700+ pages - this well research & written tome is much beyond my meager musical abilities & endurance; there is plenty of historic facts (and correction of previously published mis-information), but much of the book concentrates on detailed analysis of the compositions, esp. those earlier ones by Haydn - now this is a book that I borrowed from the library for a month - if I had the time (and the musical knowledge to understand the author's comments), then I'd sit down w/ the music playing while reading the detailed explanations - this would take months, at least for me; bottom line - if you want to read this book, first take a look at it in the library - you may change your mind -  ;) :D  This is an extremely long and erudite presentation likely most useful for graduate music classes - I'm not planning on exploring the other two (and longer) tomes of this vast trilogy.

It sounds very tempting. Perhaps next month! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 08:17:11 AM
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-J9tL8nYL._SS400_.jpg)

As an admirer of Krommer's music, I'm naturally tempted by the disc, but - how shall I put it - I'm not sure if the medium of the string quartet is the most suitable for the expression of his talents  ;)

Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 08:54:30 AM
After Jadin, some other recommendations for The Classical piano concerto:

1. Franciszek Lessel (1780-1838), piano concerto in C major, op. 14. As I had already said in a previous post, it is a very transparent work, plenty of beautiful melodic lines. A bit edulcorated, but nonetheless a very enjoyable composition.

2. Václav Jan Křtitel Tomášek (1774-1850), piano concertos in C major, op. 18, and E flat major, op. 20. These are excellent examples of the piano concerto around 1800, quite close to Beethoven's opp. 15, 19 and 37. They sound "stronger" than Mozart's works in this genre. Highly melodic, having a beautifully written piano score and remarkable piano-orchestra dialogues, they are certainly not intended to open new ways in music, but they reflect marvelously their own time. Of particular interest, the first movement of op. 18 (just at first listening to the first subject it is possible to see that "something" is happening: in fact, the "square" distribution of phrases begins to be eclipsed) and the third of op. 20 (a so playful finale that it seems that the spirit of a scherzo has been infused to it).

Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 08:17:11 AM
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet.
Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...

I saw it and I have already put it on my shopping cart. ;D Don't forget that Krommer was considered in his time as an authority in chamber music, and his string quartets were particularly appreciated. I'm really eager to this recording because, as far as I know, the only available recording of Krommer string quartets is one in Tudor with the op. 18. They are very well written and very enjoyable, but they are early works written before his best efforts. This new CD that you mention includes one quartet from op. 19, but also one from op. 74 and one from op. 103: op. 74 n. 3 is in D minor and op. 103 n. 3 is in A minor, so minor-mode fans will be pleased. ;)

You can listen to some samples in www.jpc.de. I will not comment too much on these short fragments, but judging from the main subjects I can tell you that I will buy the CD. As Beethoven, Krommer has some "stages" of development, clearly listeneable from the excerpts. I knew op. 19/2 in a further reelaboration by Krommer (piano trio op. 32, without the minuet that is present in the quartet). Op. 74/3 seems to bring the typical melodic virtues of Krommer's middle works within a dramatic context; for instance, the cello part of the menuet seems to be particularly original. Op. 103/3 is from his last works, where Krommer developed a style almost incomparable with anyone else; while not assimilating the "emotional" romantic concept, he manages to produce subjects and textures that can't be described but plainly as "strange". Notice the dialogues in the beginning of the first movement and the chromatic features of the andante: something is really happening there.

Once I listen to the CD I will give my real opinion, but those samples are a very effective appetizer for a lover of Krommer's music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 26, 2009, 09:35:50 AM
Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 08:17:11 AM
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet........

Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...

Well, I have plenty of Krommer's music but the chamber quartet works are all w/ winds of different types - just delightful; but w/ Gabriel's comments, I will likely add this disc to my 'wish list'; I don't know this SQ group but would expect a good performance of some excellent music - :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 10:02:02 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 08:54:30 AM
I saw it and I have already put it on my shopping cart. ;D Don't forget that Krommer was considered in his time as an authority in chamber music, and his string quartets were particularly appreciated. I'm really eager to this recording because, as far as I know, the only available recording of Krommer string quartets is one in Tudor with the op. 18. They are very well written and very enjoyable, but they are early works written before his best efforts. This new CD that you mention includes one quartet from op. 19, but also one from op. 74 and one from op. 103: op. 74 n. 3 is in D minor and op. 103 n. 3 is in A minor, so minor-mode fans will be pleased. ;)

You can listen to some samples in www.jpc.de. I will not comment too much on these short fragments, but judging grom the main subjects I can tell you that I will buy the CD.
Thanks for your hint with JPC, I just listened to the samples: Great stuff, I instantly liked it, especially op. 74 & 103! The pre-order is already done!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 10:23:58 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 26, 2009, 09:35:50 AM
Well, I have plenty of Krommer's music but the chamber quartet works are all w/ winds of different types - just delightful; but w/ Gabriel's comments, I will likely add this disc to my 'wish list'; I don't know this SQ group but would expect a good performance of some excellent music - :)
I haven't heard of them either, but I found their website (http://www.marcolini-quartett.de , only in German) and they seem to be members from the Concerto Köln. They play on period instruments and seem already to have gathered good reviews for their work. Funnily, due to their liking of chocolates, they are named after Pierre Marcolini, a Belgian master "chocolatier". ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 11:00:50 AM
Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 10:23:58 AM
I haven't heard of them either, but I found their website (http://www.marcolini-quartett.de , only in German) and they seem to be members from the Concerto Köln. They play on period instruments and seem already to have gathered good reviews for their work. Funnily, due to their liking of chocolates, they are named after Pierre Marcolini, a Belgian master "chocolatier". ;D

Stisti, thanks for the link, which I visited at once. I hope they will continue recording these delikatessen!

Quote from: SonicMan on March 26, 2009, 09:35:50 AM
Well, I have plenty of Krommer's music but the chamber quartet works are all w/ winds of different types - just delightful; but w/ Gabriel's comments, I will likely add this disc to my 'wish list'; I don't know this SQ group but would expect a good performance of some excellent music - :)

Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 10:02:02 AM
Thanks for your hint with JPC, I just listened to the samples: Great stuff, I instantly liked it, especially op. 74 & 103! The pre-order is already done!

I guess I will have to buy the CD very quickly... otherwise I won't have any chance of getting it! ;D

Dave, I'm sure there is great chamber music by Krommer waiting to be recorded, specially in the string quartet area. I can't suggest enough the marvelous string trio op. 96. Krommer was a lot more than his stupendous works for wind instruments. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 26, 2009, 01:59:00 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 11:00:50 AM

Dave, I'm sure there is great chamber music by Krommer waiting to be recorded, specially in the string quartet area. I can't suggest enough the marvelous string trio op. 96. Krommer was a lot more than his stupendous works for wind instruments. :)

Hello Gabriel - thought that I had some Krommer string music, but no!  :-\  Now, I've added the suggested SQs disc to my 'wish list', and just found the item below on the usual USA 'first check' websites - about all that is available; price is OK, and includes a piano quartet (fine w/ me) - just curious if you're familiar w/ this disc or possibly others that I can order 'off shore'?  Thanks - Dave  :D

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/103/1031242.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 02:48:21 PM
Dave: I'm familiar with the CD. :) As far as I know, it is the only recording of the piano quartet and one of the two available recordings of the string trio, so I guess you shouldn't think too much about it. For the trio op. 96, in my opinion, the recording by the Czech String Trio has better sound, is more precise and smoother (I would simplify by saying it is better in general), but it's quite difficult to find (it's a small label: look for the CD in http://www.musicvars.cz/en/index.html). Kontraste Köln is HIP - and very clearly - so people not liking this kind of performances would have some problems. As you are a whole-hearted classicist, you shouldn't suffer with that, I guess... ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sTisTi on March 27, 2009, 09:42:57 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 11:00:50 AM
I guess I will have to buy the CD very quickly... otherwise I won't have any chance of getting it! ;D
Yeah, I can already see the headlines: "NEW KROMMER CD SOLD OUT ON DAY OF RELEASE - PEOPLE QUEUING IN FRONT OF CD STORES"  ;D

Quote from: Gabriel on March 26, 2009, 11:00:50 AM
I can't suggest enough the marvelous string trio op. 96. Krommer was a lot more than his stupendous works for wind instruments. :)
Thanks, another disc in my shopping cart... :D
It's a pity we will probably never have the chance to hear the bulk of Krommer's vast output. Especially his mid-to-late period seems to have produced very interesting pieces. But hopefully, as this year is his 250th birthday, we might see a few new releases in the next months...
How about this disc?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411Q8WHCPDL._SS400_.jpg)
It contains the Sinfonia concertante op. 70 for flute, clarinet, violin and orchestra and the Concertino op. 39 for various wind and string instruments. The samples sound interesting, especially the Sinfonia concertante.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on March 27, 2009, 03:13:20 PM
Quote from: sTisTi on March 27, 2009, 09:42:57 AM
How about this disc?
It contains the Sinfonia concertante op. 70 for flute, clarinet, violin and orchestra and the Concertino op. 39 for various wind and string instruments. The samples sound interesting, especially the Sinfonia concertante.

It is a very fine disc. The star is clearly the playful Sinfonia concertante, with its substantial first movement and the very strange inclusion of Alla Polacca as fourth movement, preceding the finale. I wouldn't qualify it as a highlight of Krommer's output, but if you like his music it will certainly not disappoint you. The concertino has also some delightful moments: the Menuetto is really beautiful, and has a very humorous quote of "Ach du lieber Augustin".
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2009, 05:49:27 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 24, 2009, 02:31:29 PM
I would like to mention the piano concertos composed by Hyacinthe Jadin (1776-1800), a French composer who died unfortunately too young. Jadin is a composer whose music sounds incredibly Mozartian: beautiful ideas, excellent developments and an unexplainable nostalgic feeling even in major mode works. I have listened to two of his three piano concertos, and both of them would surely deserve a better consideration within this repertoire. Alas, the name of Jadin is seldom known, even among music lovers, and his works are even less often played.

The second piano concerto, in D minor, was composed in 1796; it is a very tragical work, with a first movement whose main motive sounds as a cry of inner despair. The luminous, peaceful second subject provides a fascinating contrast. The piano writing is quite particular; in parts, it doesn't remember me of any other composer of this era (for instance, towards the end of the movement there is a very original sort of bird song). The textures are as pure as they can be, which, curiously, reinforces the sadness of the music.

The third piano concerto, in A major, composed in 1798, is quite a different work. A bold one. Jadin decided to write a concerto in two movements instead of the usual three, and the first one is admirable in its idea: after an orchestral exposition of about three minutes, the piano enters, not for reexposing the subjects as it should normally be, but for "singing" a rather short recitative whose delicacy is worthy of the greatest admiration. When the piano exposes the subjects after the recitative, the effect is impressive: they sound as if they had never been played, with a freshness and a beautiful simplicity rarely achieved even during classicism. The second movement, on the other hand, presents very different virtues: in a very disguised way, Jadin presents music of popular inspiration.

I know just one recording of these works, in the label Forlane, conducted by Gérard Streletski and played by Wen-Ying Tseng in a modern piano. Even if it is not an ideal recording, it is a very enjoyable one (I'm sure it would work better with a fortepiano, but to have at least one recording is good news).

It sounds very tempting. Perhaps next month! ;D

Gabriel,
Thanks for introducing this most fascinating topic into the conversation. It is hard to come out of the Classical without some grasp on how the period changed the face of music by introducing and expanding the keyboard concerto into a major vehicle of the 19th and 20th centuries.

Before I add to your line of thought, first a reflection on Hyacinthe Jadin. I don't have any of his concerti yet, but I do have most of his solo keyboard music. His sonatas are wonderful! When we get to solo works I'll post some CD recs (there aren't many but they do include all of the sonatas). In any case, he is a name to remember when you are shopping around (well, how could you not remember "Hyacinthe" anyway? :) ).

Let me preface this by saying that Mozart was a freak of nature. His early concerti (up to #8) are pretty much standard fare that the best were turning out at that time. Everything from #9 onwards is in a league of its own that is scarcely matched even 150 years down the road. So when you look at the keyboard concerto from his time onward, you really need to put Mozart out of mind. Look instead at the "mainstream of music" and see how things fit together and don't say to yourself "yes, but he's no Mozart". Other than Beethoven, no one was a Mozart. :)

Giovanni Paisiello -
I became familiar with Paisiello as an opera composer during his residence in Vienna in the late 1780's. That was where his fame was built. So when I discovered that he had composed 8 keyboard concerti, I thought "well, yeah, but he's no Mozart... ::) ", but I went ahead and bought that Naxos disk anyway, since it also had a sinfonia and the Overture to "Proserpine" on it so I could hear a bit of his orchestral works. It is this one (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=89628). Imagine my surprise when I heard the #4 in g minor! It is a splendid little concerto. Since describing music in words is beyond my talents, suffice to say it was most enjoyable, and #2 on there in F major is very good too.

Which led me to purchase this set (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=94750) by Pietro Spada. Although there doesn't appear to be any set played on fortepiano, this is an apt substitute, and I found it a very worthwhile expenditure. I see there is one other choice for a complete set, this one here (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=16473) by the English CO/Monetti, I haven't heard any of it. I would expect it to be well played too, although my experience with the ECO is all over the map!

More soon,
Cheers,
8)










----------------
Listening to:
Levin / Beths / Bylsma - Haydn Trio in E for Piano & Strings #44 1st mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2009, 05:58:24 PM
Quote from: sTisTi on March 26, 2009, 08:17:11 AM
There's a new disc with 3 string quartets by Krommer due to be out in mid-April. It's by the Marcolini Quartet.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-J9tL8nYL._SS400_.jpg)

As an admirer of Krommer's music, I'm naturally tempted by the disc, but - how shall I put it - I'm not sure if the medium of the string quartet is the most suitable for the expression of his talents  ;)

Does anyone have an opinion about Krommer's String Quartets? Are they worth repeated listenings? I've never heard them mentioned before. Unfortunately, I haven't found sound samples either...

sTisTi,
Thanks for the heads up about this disk. Since, like the others here, I was reeled in by Krommer's wind music, but I actually did know he had written string music too, and that it was highly thought of, but I hadn't been able to really find any to listen to. So this mention not only found me some string quartets for starters, but also got some other recs like the string trio and even a piano quartet! Time to go fishing in foreign waters, I guess. :)

Oh, just as a rule of thumb when evaluating whether performers will be worth the while, if their resumés include items such as "member of Concerto Köln...", that weighs in huge on the balance sheet. :D

8)



----------------
Listening to:
Levin / Beths / Bylsma - Haydn Trio in Eb for Piano & Strings #45 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 31, 2009, 06:54:31 PM
John Field (1782-1837) - Irish composer - check out BIO HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Field_(composer)) - important influence on Chopin - transitional Classical-Romantic composer - I left the post below in the 'listening thread' but quickly became 'buried' - thought that a listing here might be of interest, not only for his piano works, but possibly a discussion of 'how to' perform his piano compositions, i.e. the appropriateness of using a fortepiano  vs. a modern piano - the Nocturnes seem to be his most well know works, and those performed by O'Connor on Telarc are excellent, but other options may be considered -  :D


Quote from: SonicMan on March 31, 2009, 02:20:10 PM
Chris, Dave, & George - I've had that Nocturnes disc for years, and the performance is wonderful - would not mind having more of these works that obviously were an important influence for Chopin; Miceal O'Rourke seems to be 'specializing' in this composer - added below are two other CDs that I own of Field's music performed by O'Rourke - not sure 'how' available these are at the moment, but both can certainly be recommended.

Now, another interesting question is that John Field's dates (1782-1837) place him in that fascinating transitional period of late classical-early Romantic periods, and of course the evolution of the piano from the forte to the more 'modern' pianos - curious if Field's Nocturnes have been performed on the fortepiano - have not checked myself yet, but others may already know?  Dave  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K9DA9GHEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZGEBFM8CL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 01, 2009, 06:50:38 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 31, 2009, 06:54:31 PM
John Field (1782-1837) - Irish composer - check out BIO HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Field_(composer)) - important influence on Chopin - transitional Classical-Romantic composer - I left the thread below in the 'listening thread' but quickly became 'buried' - thought that a listing here might be of interest, not only for his piano works, but possibly a discussion of 'how to' perform his piano compositions, i.e. the appropriateness of using a fortepiano  vs. a modern piano - the Nocturnes seem to be his most well know works, and those performed by O'Conor on Telarc are excellent, but other options may be considered -  :D



Ah, one of my favorite "transitional" composers, Dave! I suppose it is true that, since he devised the form, his nocturnes are his premiere compositions, I grew to know Field due to his concerti, which I acquired the set of on Naxos (Frith) and then a lovely disk by Staier/Concerto Köln on fortepiano.

Even though the nocturnes were composed from rather early on until the end of his life (1837), I think that the appropriate instrument is a late era fortepiano like a Graf. Even though iron frame pianos appeared <>1830, they weren't generally distributed to the point where composers were taking full advantage of their potential until rather after Field's productive life was over. That said, I think the music would stand up well to a modern piano, and indeed, O'Conor (who has a great classical touch anyway) does wonderfully well with the solo works. By the time you get to a Graf or Erard, all the elements of a "modern" piano are in place anyway with the exception of the iron frame and some great refinements in escapements and checks. So the use of a modern piano on anything written post-Schubert doesn't have nearly the negative effect on me as it does on earlier music. I still don't believe that a full-blown 2009 concert grand is quite the right thing for music like Field's, but it won't distort the music nearly as much as it does to Mozart or Hummel, for example. Just my opinion... :)

Obviously, this is a topic I would like to see expanded. Unlike a lot of people on either side of the issue, I am rather more flexible. ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Tafelmusik / Lamon Bylsma (Cello) - RV 403 Concerto in D for Cello - Allegro - Andante e spiritoso - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 01, 2009, 08:58:30 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 01, 2009, 06:50:38 AM
Ah, one of my favorite "transitional" composers, Dave! I suppose it is true that, since he devised the form, his nocturnes are his premiere compositions, I grew to know Field due to his concerti, which I acquired the set of on Naxos (Frith) and then a lovely disk by Staier/Concerto Köln on fortepiano......................

Just checking on the Amazon Marketplace - Chandos has released a 4-CD set of the Field Piano Concerti w/ Miceal O'Rourke for just $25!  Goin' to spin the one disc that I have already w/ this pianist performing two of these works, but may add the set to my 'to buy list'?  Great review on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2009/Mar09/Field_chan10468x.htm) -  :D

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2009/Mar09/Field_chan10468x.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 01, 2009, 09:47:13 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 01, 2009, 08:58:30 AM
Just checking on the Amazon Marketplace - Chandos has released a 4-CD set of the Field Piano Concerti w/ Miceal O'Rourke for just $25!  Goin' to spin the one disc that I have already w/ this pianist performing two of these works, but may add the set to my 'to buy list'?  Great review on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2009/Mar09/Field_chan10468x.htm) -  :D

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2009/Mar09/Field_chan10468x.jpg)

Man, that box looks interesting. And for a reasonable price ($25 on the Marketplace). I may go that direction, although I sure wish O'Rourke played a fortepiano... :-\ 

I saw that you had featured his disk of the 4 sonatas as being one you have too. What's your take on it? I only have sonata #1 in Eb, which is a nice work indeed, and would like a set. That disk is very tempting, but I haven't heard much about it from anyone. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 01, 2009, 02:11:00 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 01, 2009, 09:47:13 AM
Man, that box looks interesting. And for a reasonable price ($25 on the Marketplace). I may go that direction, although I sure wish O'Rourke played a fortepiano... :-\ 

I saw that you had featured his disk of the 4 sonatas as being one you have too. What's your take on it? I only have sonata #1 in Eb, which is a nice work indeed, and would like a set. That disk is very tempting, but I haven't heard much about it from anyone. :)

Yes, I'd loved to hear some of Field's works on the fortepiano, but he was just 18 y/o in 1800 when he composed the first 3 'piano sonatas' on this disc (the presumed 4th came later, first published in St. Petersburg) dedicated to his teacher, Muzio Clementi; these sonatas are short (12 to 15 1/2 minutes each) and in 2 movements w/o a slow one.  I'm listening to that disc @ the moment as I type just to remind me - these works are just delightful harking back to Haydn & Clementi (in his younger days).  O'Rourke plays w/ a deft touch, the sound of the piano is up front, and I have no problem w/ the playing on a modern piano (the recording was done in London, St. Jude's Church, in 1989; the piano used is not described in the liner notes).  I would predict that you would enjoy this disc - plus, if you are about to make an upcoming BRO order, the CD is available THERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=john+field&filter=all) at the moment for $5!

Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 01, 2009, 02:16:45 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 01, 2009, 02:11:00 PM
Yes, I'd loved to hear some of Field's works on the fortepiano, but he was just 18 y/o in 1800 when he composed the first 3 'piano sonatas' on this disc (the presumed 4th came later, first published in St. Petersburg) dedicated to his teacher, Muzio Clementi; these sonatas are short (12 to 15 1/2 minutes each) and in 2 movements w/o a slow one.  I'm listening to that disc @ the moment as I type just to remind me - these works are just delightful harking back to Haydn & Clementi (in his younger days).  O'Rourke plays w/ a deft touch, the sound of the piano is up front, and I have no problem w/ the playing on a modern piano (the recording was done in London, St. Jude's Church, in 1989; the piano used is not described in the liner notes).  I would predict that you would enjoy this disc - plus, if you are about to make an upcoming BRO order, the CD is available THERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=john+field&filter=all) at the moment for $5!

Dave  :D

Ah, thanks for coming back with that, Dave. Well, for that price, it is hard not to go for it. I do like the Eb one that I have, and it is on modern piano too (Ian Hobson - "London Piano School" vol 2). In any case, good players with the right attitude (for example, Ingrid Haebler plying Mozart) can make a modern piano sound much... less so if they leave the damned pedals alone and use a light touch. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on April 02, 2009, 01:29:57 PM
I was just listening to Mozart's Adagio and fugue K.546 performed by the Hagen Quartett (I love that band!), and was thinking two thoughts (not at the same time, I'm male):
1) Man, this is heavy! And dark!
2) Do we have examples of other composers in the classical era composing such/similar/comparable "baroque studies"?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2009, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: Valentino on April 02, 2009, 01:29:57 PM
I was just listening to Mozart's Adagio and fugue K.546 performed by the Hagen Quartett (I love that band!), and was thinking two thoughts (not at the same time, I'm male):
1) Man, this is heavy! And dark!
2) Do we have examples of other composers in the classical era composing such/similar/comparable "baroque studies"?

Ah, wonderful piece, isn't it? Well, I wouldn't say no (never say never) but by and large, classical era composers avoided that sort of thing like the plague. Mozart is rather unique in that way because he was part of the Sunday Afternoon Salon held by Baron von Sweiten and became quite enamored of fugues. He wrote quite a few of them, and orchestrated several more (like 6 Bach fugues from the WTC arranged for string trio (K 404a) for which he wrote a prelude for each). I would like to hear if anyone knows of any NOT by Mozart. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 03, 2009, 07:49:50 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2009, 01:38:56 PM
Ah, wonderful piece, isn't it? Well, I wouldn't say no (never say never) but by and large, classical era composers avoided that sort of thing like the plague. Mozart is rather unique in that way because he was part of the Sunday Afternoon Salon held by Baron von Sweiten and became quite enamored of fugues. He wrote quite a few of them, and orchestrated several more (like 6 Bach fugues from the WTC arranged for string trio (K 404a) for which he wrote a prelude for each). I would like to hear if anyone knows of any NOT by Mozart. :)

8)

Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823) arranged even more fugues from the WTC than Mozart, Gurn. There is a recording by the Emerson String Quartet.

Förster is a very unknown name from the classical era, but I know some excellent chamber music by him. I bought in an offer some years ago the double CD recorded by Les Adieux for NCA containing 4 string quintet works, which rank easily among the best of classicism and wouldn't be indifferent to anyone who likes Mozart's works in this area.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 07:55:51 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 03, 2009, 07:49:50 AM
Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823) arranged even more fugues from the WTC than Mozart, Gurn. There is a recording by the Emerson String Quartet.

Förster is a very unknown name from the classical era, but I know some excellent chamber music by him. I bought in an offer some years ago the double CD recorded by Les Adieux for NCA containing 4 string quintet works, which rank easily among the best of classicism and wouldn't be indifferent to anyone who likes Mozart's works in this area.

Ah! Thanks for that info, Gabriel. Förster is just a name to me, unfortunately, since I haven't heard any of his music. He does appear, I believe, on the list of attendees at von Sweiten's though. I will look for that disk, it sounds right up my alley so to speak. I have a few disks by Les Adieux (mostly on DHM) and really enjoy their playing. Who knows? Maybe today will be my lucky day! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück  in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 03, 2009, 09:03:17 AM
Gurn & Gabriel - just put in an order for that Field box of the orchestral piano works; listened to the single CD that I pictured previously the other night, and enjoyed the playing, the orchestra, and the sound (and @ a great price)!

Was also interested in the comments on Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823) - thought that I had one disc of this composer's music, but no (checked my database and the composer I own is Josef Foerster!) - however, my first check was at BRO (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=forster&filter=all), and to my surprise, they did have the 2-CD set of Förster's Quintets for $14 - so put in an order, and hope to enjoy on their arrival!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on April 03, 2009, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2009, 01:38:56 PM
Ah, wonderful piece, isn't it? Well, I wouldn't say no (never say never) but by and large, classical era composers avoided that sort of thing like the plague. Mozart is rather unique in that way because he was part of the Sunday Afternoon Salon held by Baron von Sweiten and became quite enamored of fugues. He wrote quite a few of them, and orchestrated several more (like 6 Bach fugues from the WTC arranged for string trio (K 404a) for which he wrote a prelude for each). I would like to hear if anyone knows of any NOT by Mozart. :)

8)
The Hagens and L'Archibudelli both have recorded Mozart preludes and fugues; thise are in my modest vaults (or on my harddisks) somewhere.
I have to check up on Förster.
Maybe I'm not a true classicist after all, this longing for fugues must be the engineer in me. Ah, the good clean maths of a fugue!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 03, 2009, 02:50:52 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 03, 2009, 09:03:17 AM
Gurn & Gabriel - just put in an order for that Field box of the orchestral piano works; listened to the single CD that I pictured previously the other night, and enjoyed the playing, the orchestra, and the sound (and @ a great price)!

Was also interested in the comments on Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823) - thought that I had one disc of this composer's music, but no (checked my database and the composer I own is Josef Foerster!) - however, my first check was at BRO (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=forster&filter=all), and to my surprise, they did have the 2-CD set of Förster's Quintets for $14 - so put in an order, and hope to enjoy on their arrival!  Dave  :D

Dave: you will love the Field set. I bought it last year, and it is a winner. At such a price, even more. If there is a corpus of late classical piano concerti to put besides Beethoven (but so different!) it is Field's. The most famous of all, number two, is an almost offensively ignored masterpiece. But there are wonders to discover everywhere. I'm particularly fond of the "music box" Adagio in the fourth concerto: great music, so simple, so delicate and so weird at the same time. And so "silent", above all. Approaching silence through music, I'd say.

You were also lucky to find Förster's set: when I bought it, I did it because it was offered at a ridiculously low price. When I discovered the jewels that were inside, I guess I thought it was one of my best purchases ever, considering a price/quality ratio. You will not regret it and you will see that, as Gurn says, van Swieten's influence was quite important in "feeding" classical composers with the wonderful music of Johann Sebastian Bach.

Quote from: Valentino on April 03, 2009, 02:20:19 PM
Maybe I'm not a true classicist after all, this longing for fugues must be the engineer in me. Ah, the good clean maths of a fugue!

Valentino, you should head for Antonín Rejcha's music. If somebody, in the late classical period, knew how to write counterpoint and fugues, enjoy formal experiments, and surprise with technical inventions, it was him, and sometimes even more radically than Beethoven himself (for example, he insisted that quarter-tones could be used successfully in music, and this in the early nineteenth century). He wrote a lot of truly great music that is almost ignored today. As it was the case with Haydn in the first half of the twentieth century, it is possible that Rejcha's music is waiting for the time of his real discovery. I've developed a real interest towards Rejcha during the last years, and my admiration doesn't cease to grow at any work of his that I come to know.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 02:53:55 PM
Quote from: Valentino on April 03, 2009, 02:20:19 PM
The Hagens and L'Archibudelli both have recorded Mozart preludes and fugues; thise are in my modest vaults (or on my harddisks) somewhere.
I have to check up on Förster.
Maybe I'm not a true classicist after all, this longing for fugues must be the engineer in me. Ah, the good clean maths of a fugue!

Yes, I have the L'Archibudelli version. Also several others (particularly like Grumiaux's), but hey... :) 

I made good use of Sonic's link and bought the Förster this afternoon, along with a 2 disk set of Kraus that I will doubtless be raving about soon.

As for loving a good fugue, I can match you there, I guess. Just something about them that it doesn't seem surprised to read how Mozart got so enthusiastic about them. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 03:00:39 PM
With all this talk about fugal writing, I thought I would point out that the fugue never disappeared from sacred music, it was only secular music where it hid its head for a while. Sacred music was singularly unchanged by the advent of the Classical Era. Other than the reforms of Joseph II which minimized the length of the mass, and pressed for less adornment, the actual music maintained a lot of its Baroque antecedents. Including a judiciously placed fugue here and there. One couldn't be considered a composer of sacred music without being able to compose a fugue! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on April 03, 2009, 03:03:45 PM
That is of course the case, Gurn. Just now however I cannot remember any fugue in Haydn's masses, but that could be down to the time of day (or night).

Gabriel, coud you recommend a Rejcha disk or two?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 03, 2009, 03:33:52 PM
Quote from: Valentino on April 03, 2009, 03:03:45 PM
That is of course the case, Gurn. Just now however I cannot remember any fugue in Haydn's masses, but that could be down to the time of day (or night).

Gabriel, coud you recommend a Rejcha disk or two?

In fact, I've been about thinking of a "Rejcha's greatest hits" post for some weeks, but I've told myself that I would like to make a careful selection out of the 25 wind quintets before I post it. There is Rejcha for all tastes.

If you are fond of fugues, the normal suggestion would be the 36 fugues for piano op. 36. The only complete set now available is played on fortepiano by Jaroslav Tuma (it is a very good set, but if you dislike the sound you could have some trouble). But consider that Beethoven, when he knew Rejcha's op. 36, exclaimed that "these were no longer fugues". As Reicha was really fond of experimentation, it isn't surprising at all!

For formal experimentation, an interesting set are the six Flute Quartets op. 98. Phrasing, rhythm, harmony, counterpoint, nothing escapes from Rejcha's sharp eye: this is remarkable music. They have been all recorded, but in two separate sets by two ensembles (1-3 led by Konrad Hünteler, and 4-6 by Aurèle Nicolet: Nicolet's set is erroneously numbered as 1-3).

There is a lot more (even in his smaller works Rejcha exposes all kinds of surprises), but I would like to keep it for a better synthesis. Of course the natural choice for approaching Rejcha's compositions is the magnificent set of wind quintets, but this is another story... and a very long one indeed!

I will try to post my "greatest hits" selection as soon as possible, so it might help to introduce who is in my humble opinion one of the greatest geniuses of this era.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
Quote from: Valentino on April 03, 2009, 03:03:45 PM
That is of course the case, Gurn. Just now however I cannot remember any fugue in Haydn's masses, but that could be down to the time of day (or night).

Gabriel, coud you recommend a Rejcha disk or two?

I'm sure that's all it is, Valentino. For a quick example, listen to the Harmoniemesse and savor the powerful little fugues at the end of the Gloria and the Credo. I'm working on that right now, just as a memory refresher, and for the pure pleasure. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Missen (Compleet) - Franz Josef Haydn - Hob 22 14 Harmoniemesse pt 1 - Kyrie
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 04:45:20 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 03, 2009, 03:33:52 PM
In fact, I've been about thinking of a "Rejcha's greatest hits" post for some weeks, but I've told myself that I would like to make a careful selection out of the 25 wind quintets before I post it. There is Rejcha for all tastes.

If you are fond of fugues, the normal suggestion would be the 36 fugues for piano op. 36. The only complete set now available is played on fortepiano by Jaroslav Tuma (it is a very good set, but if you dislike the sound you could have some trouble). But consider that Beethoven, when he knew Rejcha's op. 36, exclaimed that "these were no longer fugues". As Reicha was really fond of experimentation, it isn't surprising at all!

For formal experimentation, an interesting set are the six Flute Quartets op. 98. Phrasing, rhythm, harmony, counterpoint, nothing escapes from Rejcha's sharp eye: this is remarkable music. They have been all recorded, but in two separate sets by two ensembles (1-3 led by Konrad Hünteler, and 4-6 by Aurèle Nicolet: Nicolet's set is erroneously numbered as 1-3).

There is a lot more (even in his smaller works Rejcha exposes all kinds of surprises), but I would like to keep it for a better synthesis. Of course the natural choice for approaching Rejcha's compositions is the magnificent set of wind quintets, but this is another story... and a very long one indeed!

I will try to post my "greatest hits" selection as soon as possible, so it might help to introduce who is in my humble opinion one of the greatest geniuses of this era.

Well, they may be too common for consideration here, but Reicha's 24 Quintets for Winds are unequaled in the genre, and in Late Classical composition in general. To me, any discussion of his music has to begin here. Even short of getting the entire set, you owe it to yourself to pick up this 2 disk set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V5A7CT55L._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

which is the Academia Wind Quintet of Prague on Hyperion. Very nice sampling.

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Missen (Compleet) - Franz Josef Haydn - Hob 22 14 Harmoniemesse pt 1 - Kyrie
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 03, 2009, 06:34:47 PM
Hi Valentino - below a 'larger' pic of Gurn's recommendation, which was my introduction to Reicha's Wind Quintets - an excellent Hyperion Dyad bargain (if still available?); these are wonderful works & performances to the point that I'd like to own MORE!  ;D

CPO is offering a 10-CD box of these wind works performed by the Albert Schweitzer Quintet - I don't know this group but the Amazon Marketplace price is $75; so, any comments on this offering (or possibly other 'complete' sets)?  Thanks all - Dave  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/504825604_De9Gp-M.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cXNnVHo0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 04, 2009, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 03, 2009, 06:34:47 PM
CPO is offering a 10-CD box of these wind works performed by the Albert Schweitzer Quintet - I don't know this group but the Amazon Marketplace price is $75; so, any comments on this offering (or possibly other 'complete' sets)?  Thanks all - Dave  :)

A comment, Dave?

;D

If you liked the Hyperion set... GET IT!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2009, 05:58:57 PM
Equality of instruments: A musical necessity or a social convention?

This is a topic which has always interested me. I'm quite sure that someone far more knowledgeable than I am has written an enlightened tome which fully explains the topic, but I haven't been privileged to read that yet, so I have drawn inferences from what I have read and put some things together and this is what I came away with. If anyone sees any errors of fact, or wishes to correct my logic, I would love to discuss this topic here. :)

In the mid to late 18th century there was a long-standing tradition that part of a well-rounded education for anyone of the noble class to learn music and especially the playing of an instrument. With men it was often a string instrument, with women, nearly always the keyboard. A fair number of these people became very proficient at their instruments, but it was strictly taboo for anyone with noble blood to pursue any sort of career as a musician, so they remained "amateurs" or dilettantes. Some of them played of a quality which today we would expect only of professionals, so we can't use amateur in the modern sense of not being proficient enough to be a professional. Other factors applied.

And these people were good enough and wealthy enough to commission works from the finest composers of the day for their own use. They played at salons that they or their friends held regularly, and in the case of the ladies, they played for prospective suitors, often with the suitor himself playing accompaniment on the violin or cello or whatever instrument he played. Thus, sonatas were written for keyboard where the only obliggato instrument was the keyboard, and the other instrument(s) were ad libitum. This was the stage that the accompanied sonata was in when Haydn wrote his earlier piano trios, for example, and Mozart his early violin sonatas. So when we are told (unfortunately often) that these earlier works aren't worth listening to because they were written for amateurs, we are victims of a misrepresentation, intentional or otherwise, that leaves out the entire context of what an amateur was in those days.

By the time of the reign of the Emperor Joseph II, there was a huge change in the social fabric of Europe, particularly in Austria. The noble class was stripped of a lot of their wealth and power, but the middle class, merchants, lawyers and the like, suddenly were not only able to accumulate wealth but also to put on the pretense of being noble. They, however, were not constrained by class rules which prevented them from becoming professional musicians if they desired. Witness Josepha Auernhammer, a student of Mozart. Daughter of a merchant, she took lessons from Mozart and became one of the fine pianists of her time, eventually going to Paris to play professionally. In addition, there also rose a class of touring professional musicians who performed whatever works they brought with them and also whatever was popular at the time in whatever city they landed in. An example is Mademoiselle Jenomy (daughter of a French diplomat) for whom Mozart composed his 9th piano concerto, and Mademoiselle Paradis (blind virtuoso, famous throughout Europe) for whom he composed the 17th. Or Regina Strinasacchi, violinist extraordinaire, for whom he composed the violin sonata in Bb K 454 and performed it with her in public before the Emperor. These were all professionals in every sense of the word (Jenomy retired to Paris and taught keyboard until her death <>1820). In other words, music was moving out of the salon and onto the public stage, due to social factors far bigger than music itself.

So, how did composers react to this? Well, they began writing for ensembles in which all the members were equally talented instead of just 1 or 2 members were. And that meant that the violin part of a violin sonata needed to be at least as interesting as the keyboard part. Same for trios (extremely popular then, as now). So all the themes in a piece were no longer introduced by the keyboard, and the voice-leading wasn't strictly cued from the keyboard either. There was a greater equality between instruments.

So, was this a musical necessity? Or a social one? Well, it was both, IMO. Music had come about as far as it could in the mixed ensemble without some elemental change which allowed for the idiomatic playing of each instrument to assert itself. Violins couldn't double the right hand forever, nor cellos the left. Once basso continuuo was eliminated from music, the bass (cello) had to have a real part to play. So the music was fundamentally changed to accommodate this necessity. And from a social point of view, there were now players available to fill the need for cellists and violinists too. Keyboard chamber music was no longer the province of the salon.

So, how about strings? This is a wholly different story, which I will have a go at next time. Thanks for reading. :)

8)


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Listening to:
Haydn Schöpfungmesse "Creation Mass" - English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Monteverdi Choir - Haydn Schöpfungmesse Hob XXII:13 - Kyrie
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 04, 2009, 07:30:55 PM
Very interesting ideas, Gurn.

I was thinking about something probably complementary with your view: The birth of the Conservatory after the French Revolution enabled to have many musicians (number) trained in the same principles (quality). The same lesson for many people in a public institution is to me a step towards a certain standardization of music.

This is perceptible in the instruments too: for instance, to mention just one case, the piano(forte) replaced to a great variety of baroque keyboards. In this way the "instrumentarium" begins a clear process of reduction (number) and "regularization" (quality), compared with precedent times.

... but I can be wrong.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on April 04, 2009, 11:31:48 PM
Thanks again for educational posts par excellense.

I shall prowl the Norwegian library system for Rejcha.
(The Hyperion double disk is of course only available as ridiculous mp3 at a ridiculous price now. No go.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 05, 2009, 03:08:14 AM
Great article, Gön!  ;D  I may reference it at some point.  Great cliffhanger, too - I'll be waiting for Zweiter Teil!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 06:08:50 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 04, 2009, 07:30:55 PM
Very interesting ideas, Gurn.

I was thinking about something probably complementary with your view: The birth of the Conservatory after the French Revolution enabled to have many musicians (number) trained in the same principles (quality). The same lesson for many people in a public institution is to me a step towards a certain standardization of music.

This is perceptible in the instruments too: for instance, to mention just one case, the piano(forte) replaced to a great variety of baroque keyboards. In this way the "instrumentarium" begins a clear process of reduction (number) and "regularization" (quality), compared with precedent times.

... but I can be wrong.

Antoine,
I would be delighted to have you post your views here. I enjoyed your posting in the Mozart Sonatas thread, but as you see that has sunk below the horizon, while here it would still be available to anyone interested.

Standardization was indeed a major factor towards what we recognize today. And in the immediate post-Revolutionary Era, France had a huge influence on European music (e.g. - Beethoven was as influenced by France as much as by Germany). So this would clearly be a germane topic for us. Have at it!

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Royal Concertgebouw \ Jochum - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 06:13:12 AM
Quote from: Valentino on April 04, 2009, 11:31:48 PM
Thanks again for educational posts par excellense.

I shall prowl the Norwegian library system for Rejcha.
(The Hyperion double disk is of course only available as ridiculous mp3 at a ridiculous price now. No go.)

Valentino,
That disk is still available here, although probably "used" though. Although I didn't think it was OOP...  :-[

I see a variety of other disks of these works. I have a couple of the Naxos "Michael Thompson Wind Ensemble" disks that are really good too, and should be readily available. You wouldn't be disappointed with those, especially at the Naxos price! :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Royal Concertgebouw \ Jochum - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 06:15:01 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on April 05, 2009, 03:08:14 AM
Great article, Gön!  ;D  I may reference it at some point.  Great cliffhanger, too - I'll be waiting for Zweiter Teil!

Thanks, Sorin. Hope it presents something of interest to any music lover. As for the string ensemble genres, yes, a different story indeed. Sometimes the keyboard makes all the difference! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Royal Concertgebouw \ Jochum - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 05, 2009, 07:56:46 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2009, 05:58:57 PM
And these people were good enough and wealthy enough to commission works from the finest composers of the day for their own use. They played at salons that they or their friends held regularly, and in the case of the ladies, they played for prospective suitors, often with the suitor himself playing accompaniment on the violin or cello or whatever instrument he played. Thus, sonatas were written for keyboard where the only obliggato instrument was the keyboard, and the other instrument(s) were ad libitum. This was the stage that the accompanied sonata was in when Haydn wrote his earlier piano trios, for example, and Mozart his early violin sonatas. So when we are told (unfortunately often) that these earlier works aren't worth listening to because they were written for amateurs, we are victims of a misrepresentation, intentional or otherwise, that leaves out the entire context of what an amateur was in those days.

The case of Haydn's piano trios is one of the best examples of this situation. Even his late piano trios show a restricted position of the cello in front of both violin and piano. This lack of "instrumental balance" is not irrelevant for music, of course, but it is irrelevant for the quality of music: in fact, among those trios it is possible to find some of the greatest chamber compositions of this era and - as it is often with Haydn - of music as a whole.

Mozart's Prussian quartets show the other face of this evolution: the importance of the cello part was a consequence, deliberately thought for those specific works. I guess there's a lot to say about these magnificent quartets and their relationship with instrumental changes during the middle and late classical periods.

Further thoughts: new instrumental combinations during the classical period can be focused as another expression of this situation. For instance, I think of Mozart's Kegelstatt Trio, written for clarinet, viola and piano. It is one of Mozart's greatest chamber works and I would say a very "personal" one: he was particularly fond of those three instruments. The introduction of clarinet to the major repertoire is, in part, a consequence of Mozart's enthusiasm towards it: not just the evident Clarinet concerto or Clarinet quintet, but even in stage music; for example, La Clemenza di Tito has some delighful obbligati for clarinet. (Somebody will say - and very correctly - that it was intended for the basset horn, but I'm seeing the movement as a whole). On the other hand, viola was Mozart's favourite string instrument, and what to say about keyboard and its relationship with Mozart the virtuoso performer.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 08:24:38 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 05, 2009, 07:56:46 AM
The case of Haydn's piano trios is one of the best examples of this situation. Even his late piano trios show a restricted position of the cello in front of both violin and piano. This lack of "instrumental balance" is not irrelevant for music, of course, but it is irrelevant for the quality of music: in fact, among those trios it is possible to find some of the greatest chamber compositions of this era and - as it is often with Haydn - of music as a whole.

Yes. I have read some analyses of Haydn's piano trios that suggest that he had some difficulty in knowing precisely what to do with the cello once continuuo became redundant. Not sure that this is precisely the right way to describe it, but he did seem to take a while to come around to using the cello in the piano trio the same way he used it in the string quartet. Pretty much all of the SQ's after Op 17 use the cello as a full equal partner. More equal than some, in fact. :)

QuoteMozart's Prussian quartets show the other face of this evolution: the importance of the cello part was a consequence, deliberately thought for those specific works. I guess there's a lot to say about these magnificent quartets and their relationship with instrumental changes during the middle and late classical periods.

Yes again, and this is what I want to explore in the next installment of this essay, how the string quartet differed from the keyboard chamber works. Clearly it is a whole different line of evolution.

QuoteFurther thoughts: new instrumental combinations during the classical period can be focused as another expression of this situation. For instance, I think of Mozart's Kegelstatt Trio, written for clarinet, viola and piano. It is one of Mozart's greatest chamber works and I would say a very "personal" one: he was particularly fond of those three instruments. The introduction of clarinet to the major repertoire is, in part, a consequence of Mozart's enthusiasm towards it: not just the evident Clarinet concerto or Clarinet quintet, but even in stage music; for example, La Clemenza di Tito has some delighful obbligati for clarinet. (Somebody will say - and very correctly - that it was intended for the basset horn, but I'm seeing the movement as a whole). On the other hand, viola was Mozart's favourite string instrument, and what to say about keyboard and its relationship with Mozart the virtuoso performer.

No doubt at all that this trio was very personal to Mozart: he composed it for himself and his friends to play at their personal salons (with himself on viola, Stadler at Bassett Clarinet and his student, Mademoiselle Jacquin at the keyboard). One of MY favorites too.

Clarinet was indeed one of Mozart's favorite instruments, although he was far from being its only proponent. Our old friend Krommer was another, and Carl Stamitz and largely Bernard Crusell who really put the clarinet over the top in acceptance. Once people heard it and its beautiful tone color and range, it was a done deal. :)

8)


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Listening to:
RV 693 Opera "La Senna Festeggiante" - Le Parlement de Musique / Gester Collot / Karolyi / MacLeod - Illustri amiche - Qui nel profondo (La Seine)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2009, 09:14:12 AM
BTW, anyone knows two delicious discs entitled Mozart – Une Soirée chez les Jacquin (Zig Zag Territoritoires)?

I recalled them when I was reading the last posts.

Apparently in their original incarnation (I own the cheap edition without booklet), these CDs included an amazing "78 page booklet with essays on the Jacquins, on their relationship to Mozart, on Anton Stadler, on the basset horn and the clarinet, on the instrument-maker Theodor Lotz and on the fortepiano used for the recording by its maker".

More information here: http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Jacquin-Lehtipuu-Ensemble-Banchini/dp/B00002R15T (the audio is rather fine for the Amazon's standards).

Great discs even considering this picture of Giles Thomé  ::):

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 09:17:55 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2009, 09:14:12 AM
BTW, anyone knows two delicious discs entitled Mozart – Une Soirée chez les Jacquin (Zig Zag Territoritoires)?

I recalled them when I was reading the last posts.

Apparently in their original incarnation (I own the cheap edition without booklet), these CDs included an amazing "78 page booklet with essays on the Jacquins, on their relationship to Mozart, on Anton Stadler, on the basset horn and the clarinet, on the instrument-maker Theodor Lotz and on the fortepiano used for the recording by its maker".

More information here: http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Jacquin-Lehtipuu-Ensemble-Banchini/dp/B00002R15T (the audio is rather fine for the Amazon's standards).

Great discs even considering this picture of Giles Thomé  ::):

Antoine,
Yes, I have the original, along with the 78 page booklet. :)  It is indeed very informative, and interesting. IMO, this is one of the great packages ever released if one wanted to make converts to a particular genre of music. The singing and playing is superb, and the theme is maintained throughout the disks AND the artwork. Highly recommended. :)

8)

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Listening to:
RV 693 Opera "La Senna Festeggiante" - Le Parlement de Musique / Gester Collot / Karolyi / MacLeod - Vedrete in quest' eroe - Io qui provo (La Seine et La Vertu)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 05, 2009, 09:28:53 AM
Gurn, Gabriel, & Antoine - thanks for the informative posts in the recent page of this thread, esp. the detailed & erudite comments offered by Gurn; I've read quite a bit of this history also in the development of music & instrumentation of those times, and can't really find any major arguments.  I feel that the changes in instrumentation (esp. to the keyboards & woodwinds) and the influences of composers & their 'professional' friends (e.g. Mozart & Stadler) were important in some of this repertoire.  So, great posts!  :)

But, along the line of composers writing for so-called 'amateur' noblemen (or noblewomen), one of the best examples, of course, is Haydn and Prince Nick, the latter on the baryton - I'm half way through this 21-CD box set, and the music is just written well; there was always some sentiment that Haydn may have 'simplified' his baryton writing for his boss, but hey Nick was considered pretty damn good on this instrument; at any rate, this is quite enjoyable music (best appreciate in incremental doses!) - below is a recent post I put in the 'old instrument' thread; thought a 'repeat' here would not be an issue - Dave  ;D     

**************************************************************************************************

Baryton - another older string instrument, popular in the 17th & 18th centuries, and one that has fascinated me for years; of course, the master composer for this instrument was Joseph Haydn, mainly because his employer, Prince Nikolaus Esterhazy, was apparently an excellent performer on this instrument and insisted on a LOT of 'new' music for his passion; Haydn was a reluctant servant at first because of his lack of understanding of the baryton; well, he taught himself to play the instrument and then was much more enthusiastic in composing many works, including 126 extant trios, duets, octets, and other pieces! 

Well, yesterday I received from 'across the pond' the Brilliant Box shown below of Haydn's Baryton Works - the instrument is seen in both photos; Brilliant has established a website HERE (http://www.haydnbarytontrios.com/) just for this set; the track listenings are included, plus some audio snippets; quoted in part from the booklet: 

Quotebaryton...a member of the gamba family, typically consists of one manual w/ 6-7 bowed gut strings and another w/ up to 20, though normally 9-10 'sympathetically resonating strings of metal, lying under the fingerboard...; the open back of the neck also makes it possible to pluck the resonance strings....

The baryton used in these recordings (performed by the Esterhazy Ensemble w/ Michael Brussing on the instrument) is a copy after an instrument by J.J. Stadlmann which was played by Prince Nick, himself (the original is in the National Museum in Budapest) - just getting started today in listening to this set; will take a while!  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/503983918_hE2MS-M.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/503983919_Pot4F-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 09:42:18 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 05, 2009, 09:28:53 AM

Baryton - another older string instrument, popular in the 17th & 18th centuries, and one that has fascinated me for years; of course, the master composer for this instrument was Joseph Haydn, mainly because his employer, Prince Nikolaus Esterhazy, was apparently an excellent performer on this instrument and insisted on a LOT of 'new' music for his passion; Haydn was a reluctant servant at first because of his lack of understanding of the baryton; well, he taught himself to play the instrument and then was much more enthusiastic in composing many works, including 126 extant trios, duets, octets, and other pieces! 

Well, yesterday I received from 'across the pond' the Brilliant Box shown below of Haydn's Baryton Works - the instrument is seen in both photos; Brilliant has established a website HERE (http://www.haydnbarytontrios.com/) just for this set; the track listenings are included, plus some audio snippets; quoted in part from the booklet: 


The baryton used in these recordings (performed by the Esterhazy Ensemble w/ Michael Brussing on the instrument) is a copy after an instrument by J.J. Stadlmann which was played by Prince Nick, himself (the original is in the National Museum in Budapest) - just getting started today in listening to this set; will take a while!  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/503983918_hE2MS-M.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/503983919_Pot4F-M.jpg)

Interesting post, Dave. I have always been fascinated with the baryton. First time I heard it I just couldn't figure out how that cello and guitar were playing together like they were... ::)  :D

The part that I marked in your post has an interesting anecdote attached: Haydn taught himself how to play the baryton to surprise the Prince. He pulled it out one evening and played (rather better than the Prince did, in fact) but surprisingly, elicited little comment from the Prince. When Haydn asked him about it he said "Well, you're a professional, you should be able to play anything..." and carried on what he was doing. Just goes to show, don't show up your Prince... :)

8)


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Listening to:
RV 693 Opera "La Senna Festeggiante" - Le Parlement de Musique / Gester Collot / Karolyi / MacLeod - Quanto felici siete - Cosi sol nell aurea (La Vertu)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: knight66 on April 05, 2009, 11:54:00 AM
Very interesting material. Is there any evidence that the works commissioned, where it is clear that at least one 'line' had to be reasonably elementary, were subsequently reworked to beef-up the less demanding part?

Also, do we know whether the work pretty much had to be tune-lead? I was wondering to what extent composers felt they could experiment; or were they keeping themselves on the lead to ensure ear catching pleasure?

Mike
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 12:42:06 PM
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2009, 11:54:00 AM
Very interesting material. Is there any evidence that the works commissioned, where it is clear that at least one 'line' had to be reasonably elementary, were subsequently reworked to beef-up the less demanding part?

Well, to some extent the works speak for themselves in this regard. If you can simply skip the part altogether then it is either undemanding or superfluous. Look at Mozart's Concerto (#7) for 3 Pianos, K 242. It was a chamber concerto (for the home) written for a countess and 2 of her daughters. Piano 1 is quite difficult, reflecting the capability of the countess (IIRC) who was quite a good pianist. Piano's 2 & 3 were progressively less so, to the point that when he rewrote it a few years later for himself and Auernhammer to play, he dropped the part altogether or combined the 2 parts into 1. :)

QuoteAlso, do we know whether the work pretty much had to be tune-lead? I was wondering to what extent composers felt they could experiment; or were they keeping themselves on the lead to ensure ear catching pleasure?

Mike

I think they experimented far less on commissioned works than otherwise. One of the main complaints today about "classical" music is the regularity of meter. There was not a whole lot of trying out of oddly spaced rhythms because that's not what the commissionees wanted. They were looking for nice, regular metrics to go by. The real interesting stuff (especially Mozart's) was non-commissioned, he wrote it because he wanted to try out a new idea. That sort of thing didn't make money back then, it was art for art's sake. :)

8)

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Listening to:
Wölfl Op 28 3 Sonatas for Fortepiano - Laure Colladant - Wölfl Op 28 #3 Sonata in b for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: knight66 on April 05, 2009, 12:48:22 PM
Ah, very informative, thanks. I had no idea about the Mozart triple piano concerto being reworked. I did wonder if it might be a reasonably widespread practice, knowing how many composers would rework good ideas. At least sometimes they must have been feeling that some excellent ideas were not being allowed to fly.

I suppose that as well as providing plenty of four in the bar, they would have to avoid certain keys.

Mike
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 12:53:03 PM
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2009, 12:48:22 PM
Ah, very informative, thanks. I had no idea about the Mozart triple piano concerto being reworked. I did wonder if it might be a reasonably widespread practice, knowing how many composers would rework good ideas. At least sometimes they must have been feeling that some excellent ideas were not being allowed to fly.

I suppose that as well as providing plenty of four in the bar, they would have to avoid certain keys.

Mike

Yes, you'll find that the 2 piano version requires a bit more from the performers, especially Piano #2 than the 3 piano version does.

Well, I don't see a lot of b flat minors in there... :)   More C, D and Eb than anything else I guess. Minors and oddly keys seem to be used for the more personal music. :)

8)

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Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 899 #1 Impromptu in c for Fortepiano - Allegro molto moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: knight66 on April 05, 2009, 01:09:46 PM
Yes, it goes to the heart of the difference between performing music for other people and playing it for ones self without audience of any kind. I think largely we have lost that distinction as not many homes contain reasonably trained musical people who come together just to please themselves. Once upon a time many homes would have had a piano and so much music making would have centred round it. When I read about such families or groups of friends, I am envious.

Did composers provide their own simple editions of their chamber pieces for domestic consumption? Or was that really done by publishers paying arrangers? I have for example seen a simplified version of the Moonlight Sonata....not arrranged by Beethoven.

I heard it played in a hotel lounge and one of the musicians I was with, at the end, said very loudly, and I thought unkindly. 'Oh, Beethoven wrote something like that'

Mike
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2009, 01:09:46 PM
Yes, it goes to the heart of the difference between performing music for other people and playing it for ones self without audience of any kind. I think largely we have lost that distinction as not many homes contain reasonably trained musical people who come together just to please themselves. Once upon a time many homes would have had a piano and so much music making would have centred round it. When I read about such families or groups of friends, I am envious.

Yes, I am envious too. People like Schubert, for example, wrote his first 8 or 9 string quartets for his father, himself and his 2 brothers to play at home. And the cello part is rather weaker because Papa wasn't quite as good on the cello as the lads were on their instruments. But it strikes me as a great growing up, and in his case, certainly influenced his entire career.

QuoteDid composers provide their own simple editions of their chamber pieces for domestic consumption? Or was that really done by publishers paying arrangers? I have for example seen a simplified version of the Moonlight Sonata....not arrranged by Beethoven.

I heard it played in a hotel lounge and one of the musicians I was with, at the end, said very loudly, and I thought unkindly. 'Oh, Beethoven wrote something like that'

Mike

I think it was mainly the publishers who ran that little scheme. They wanted to be able to sell the sheets to as many people as possible so you could buy the real deal or "play by the numbers" or anything in between. Publishing was the only place that the real money was back then. Composers made crap. :-\

8)
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Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 935 #1 Impromptu in f for Fortepiano - Allegretto moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: knight66 on April 05, 2009, 01:43:09 PM
I imagine that if we lived in a world where there was no recorded music; more of us would have been driven to learn to play. Our great fortune in being able to hear almost anything in a superb performance surely must have made us at least a bit lazy in getting into the guts of music by learning it at first hand.

All that at-home chamber playing would have been a great preparation for turning up at orchestral concerts, where one would automatically be following the structure of even a new piece.

I remember in choir in one piece I overheard the singer next to me refer to the recapitulation we were rehearsing; the person he was speaking to looked puzzled and said something to the effect that, he thought the music seemed a bit familiar.

::)

Mike
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 06, 2009, 10:36:26 PM
"Sometimes the keyboard makes all the difference!", said Gurn in some post.

Those words brought to my mind the following notes included with the Chopin's Etudes played on fortepiano by John Khouri (Music&Arts Programs of America). There the performer explains the relation between the Chopin's generation and the previous one: 

"By 1830, the pupils of Clementi, Mozart and Beethoven were beginning to face a new breed of virtuoso. Paradoxically weaned on their technical innovations, the new school gradually overtook and smothered the old. Hummel, Ries, Cramer, Field, Kalkbrenner and many others, were to see their achievements eclipsed by new-comers who exhibited a ferocious command of the keyboard. The older generation had trouble at first comprehending the new pianists. Cramer, for example, told von Lenz, "I don't understand him (Chopin), but he plays beautifully and correctly. Oh! Very correctly; he doesn't let fly like other young people; but I don't understand him". When John Field first heard the young Liszt in Paris in 1832, he quipped to another audience member "does he bite?". Not only did Liszt bite, but he proceeded to devour not only Field, but many others of his contemporaries. It is not surprising that Cramer disliked Liszt intensely. By 1830, Hummel's supremacy as the continent's greatest pianist was being seriously challenged and J.B. Cramer, Britain's finest virtuoso, was beginning to look distinctly old-fashioned. And so, Schumann superceded Dussek, Liszt replaced Clementi, Mendelssohn become more appealing than Cramer and Chopin preferred to Field. As the 1840s dawned, the achievements of great pianist born in the 18th century faded into obscurity and their compositions began to gather dust. The new school of Liszt, Chopin, Thalberg, Henselt and Alkan had well and truly arrived".

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2009, 05:29:27 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 06, 2009, 10:36:26 PM
"Sometimes the keyboard makes all the difference!", said Gurn in some post.

Those words brought to my mind the following notes included with the Chopin's Etudes played on fortepiano by John Khouri (Music&Arts Programs of America). There the performer explains the relation between the Chopin's generation and the previous one: 

"By 1830, the pupils of Clementi, Mozart and Beethoven were beginning to face a new breed of virtuoso. Paradoxically weaned on their technical innovations, the new school gradually overtook and smothered the old. Hummel, Ries, Cramer, Field, Kalkbrenner and many others, were to see their achievements eclipsed by new-comers who exhibited a ferocious command of the keyboard. The older generation had trouble at first comprehending the new pianists. Cramer, for example, told von Lenz, "I don't understand him (Chopin), but he plays beautifully and correctly. Oh! Very correctly; he doesn't let fly like other young people; but I don't understand him". When John Field first heard the young Liszt in Paris in 1832, he quipped to another audience member "does he bite?". Not only did Liszt bite, but he proceeded to devour not only Field, but many others of his contemporaries. It is not surprising that Cramer disliked Liszt intensely. By 1830, Hummel's supremacy as the continent's greatest pianist was being seriously challenged and J.B. Cramer, Britain's finest virtuoso, was beginning to look distinctly old-fashioned. And so, Schumann superceded Dussek, Liszt replaced Clementi, Mendelssohn become more appealing than Cramer and Chopin preferred to Field. As the 1840s dawned, the achievements of great pianist born in the 18th century faded into obscurity and their compositions began to gather dust. The new school of Liszt, Chopin, Thalberg, Henselt and Alkan had well and truly arrived".

:)

Yes, Antoine, one generation succeeded the previous one, and brought with them a whole new idea about music. Among other things, this became the Age of the Virtuoso, which was something that was very much frowned upon by the Classicists. Even though such as Cramer, Hummel, Dussek and Field were indeed extraordinary players, they didn't let their talent overshadow the music. With the advent of that generation, with the exception of Chopin (who was a virtuoso, but not a showoff), the quality of the music became subordinate to the opportunities for showing what they could do at the piano.

8)

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Listening to:
Jan Vermeulen - D 946 3 Klavierstücke for Fortepiano #2 - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2009, 05:59:30 PM
Ensemble Chamber Playing - Part II - String Quartets

In Part I of this essay, I shared some thoughts I have concerning chamber music with keyboard. We talked a bit about amateurs and professionals and how keyboard chamber music composition was driven by amateurs. Now I would like to take a very brief history of string quartets and show how they came from a very different gene pool.

The string quartet as we know it today traces back in direct fashion to Haydn's Op 9 of 1771. To be sure, there was music being written for this combination of instruments before that, Haydn wrote at least 12 works, and many other composers had jumped on the bandwagon during the 1760's. But the finished article, a 4 movement work with a sonata-allegro first movement and significant independence of the parts is Haydn's contribution to the party. From that point on, he grew more and more diversified in his incorporation of styles (e.g. - fugues in Op 20) and more and more changes in the superiority of the instruments.

How does this differ from keyboard music? Well, we saw that keyboard music started out just the opposite. In a trio, for example, the keyboard could even play alone, or with only a violin doubling the right hand, or an added cello doubling the left. In string quartets, although there is some occasional doubling as a musical necessity, it is equally likely that the viola and 2nd violin will be playing independently. And a new theme could be introduced by the 2nd violin or the cello too. It was to be many years before the piano trio achieved this sort of internal structure.

So why did the string quartet start out differently from the piano trio? It is their intended audience. The trio was a social vehicle for amateurs. The quartet was written for professionals! To be sure, amateurs were a leading force in the development of music in the mid/late 18th century, but there were plenty of professionals around too. And Haydn originally developed the quartet as a vehicle for the private amusement of him and his friends. Something for them to play when they had leisure time. A way for him to actually enjoy music for his own gratification and not someone else's. He didn't write any easy parts, even in his early quartets. Didn't condescend to the patron's taste or musical handicaps. And he used them for experiments in music, much in the way Beethoven used the piano sonata as his laboratory.

As the population of good, professional musicians grew, the string quartet became more popular, became played in public, became a paragon of musical virtue. But the picture I have in my mind, of the "little quartet party" that Michael Kelly wrote about in his diary, where he described an after dinner evening at a friend's apartment "we were entertained with quartets. The players were not the greatest at their craft, but there was some science between them:
First Violin - Haydn
Second Violin - Dittersdorf
Viola - Mozart
Cello - Vanhal"   

If you lived in 1784 in Vienna, this was the cream of the crop. I would have loves to be a fly on the wall. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 07, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
Let's remember, however, that specially in French music, a duality survived into the nineteenth century: the quatuor brillant opposed to the quatuor concertant. While in the first there was a clear hegemony of one of the instruments (in string quartets, normally the first violin), the second followed the patterns of equality between them described by Gurn.

The evolution towards the quatuor concertant seems obvious, judging from our time the music of that period. However, there was quite a struggle and - perhaps - it is even more noticeable when considering genres other than the string quartet; for example, in chamber music for winds and strings. In a clarinet quintet - for example - the temptation of writing for "clarinet + strings" instead of writing for "clarinet + violin + violin + viola + cello" could be very strong. The influence of Rejcha and Krommer in this evolution was, to my opinion, of considerable importance: as Haydn and Beethoven didn't show a great interest in this kind of works, they were the composers with the highest technical knowledge of their time to deal directly with this problem (I think of Spohr as an alternative, but I don't know his music enough as to analyze his influence: perhaps Gurn or some other illustrated member could make a comment about his music).

And here I arrive to a point of - perhaps - anticipating a third post by Gurn: the most impressive equality achieved by Rejcha in his wind quintets. These works are a major musical as well as historical achievement. While the string quartet shows three kinds of instruments, they are mutatis mutandis of a same nature, and so, their equal treatment can be regarded as quite natural; but to treat equally a horn, an oboe, a clarinet, a flute and a bassoon, and to do it remarkably as Rejcha did with works of the highest musical excellence, is more than just something to be noticed as an anecdote in some forgotten pages of musical history.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Ten thumbs on April 08, 2009, 06:28:09 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2009, 05:29:27 PM
Yes, Antoine, one generation succeeded the previous one, and brought with them a whole new idea about music. Among other things, this became the Age of the Virtuoso, which was something that was very much frowned upon by the Classicists. Even though such as Cramer, Hummel, Dussek and Field were indeed extraordinary players, they didn't let their talent overshadow the music. With the advent of that generation, with the exception of Chopin (who was a virtuoso, but not a showoff), the quality of the music became subordinate to the opportunities for showing what they could do at the piano.

I think there are other exceptions, namely Alkan who rarely sacrificed virtuosity for substance and who became a recluse, Mendelssohn and also his sister who was forced to remain an 'amateur'. Schumann injured his hand couldn't be a virtuoso so there are few excesses in his music either. His wife Clara was one of the best virtuosos of the time but unfortunately had to use that skill to earn a crust so her oeuvre is small. Listz did in later years cast off his excesses, in fact I would hardly say he was showing off in his Sonata.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 06:52:53 AM
Quote from: Ten thumbs on April 08, 2009, 06:28:09 AM
I think there are other exceptions, namely Alkan who rarely sacrificed virtuosity for substance and who became a recluse, Mendelssohn and also his sister who was forced to remain an 'amateur'. Schumann injured his hand couldn't be a virtuoso so there are few excesses in his music either. His wife Clara was one of the best virtuosos of the time but unfortunately had to use that skill to earn a crust so her oeuvre is small. Listz did in later years cast off his excesses, in fact I would hardly say he was showing off in his Sonata.

I was referring mainly to the people on Antoine's list, which was why I excepted Chopin. In truth, I don't know much about Alkan since he worked/played in a later period than my interest, but I have heard a few of his works played, and they sound pretty virtuosic to me.

And I wouldn't include Schumann in the "showoff" list either. Nor Brahms if you want to continue down that line. I find it hard to leave off Liszt though. He lived so damned long that he went through any number of phases, but the Age of the Virtuoso occurred early in his career which is the period we are talking about.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 08, 2009, 06:54:41 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2009, 05:59:30 PM
Ensemble Chamber Playing - Part II - String Quartets

....Now I would like to take a very brief history of string quartets and show how they came from a very different gene pool.

.....The string quartet as we know it today traces back in direct fashion to Haydn's Op 9 of 1771........

....As the population of good, professional musicians grew, the string quartet became more popular, became played in public, became a paragon of musical virtue.

Gurn - excellent post, as usual; and agree that the development of the String Quartet was centered more on professional performance; an early example of course is our friend Luigi Boccherini, his earliest SQs were written in 1761, when he was but 18 y/o and on his way from Italy to Spain; these are labelled Op. 2 (1-6) and were composed for himself & his 'professional' buddies - of course, these are not the 4-movement (all are in 3 movements) works later 'perfected' by Haydn, but in those earlier years, I believe that the two composers were 'bouncing' ideas off each other, esp. the greater role of the cello in this string ensemble as evident by Luigi's writing & playing.  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 01:16:11 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 07, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
Let's remember, however, that specially in French music, a duality survived into the nineteenth century: the quatuor brillant opposed to the quatuor concertant. While in the first there was a clear hegemony of one of the instruments (in string quartets, normally the first violin), the second followed the patterns of equality between them described by Gurn.

Interesting that you should mention Spohr a bit later, Gabriel. His evolution is a microcosm of this phenomenon. Spohr was a violin virtuoso, his early works were mainly violin concerti which he toured with and made his name. And his earlier string quartets were in the brillant tradition, where the other 3 instruments were supporting him as the lead fiddler and constituted a virtual tutti to his solo violin. But later on (he wrote 36 of them IIRC) he tended more and more to the concertante style. He was on record as stating that it was his fondest desire to be able to write a Haydnesque or Mozartian type of quartet. :)  If you get a chance and want to hear a master of brillant string quartets, you really should have a try at... Paganini! Talk about a mini-concerto!! :o

QuoteThe evolution towards the quatuor concertant seems obvious, judging from our time the music of that period. However, there was quite a struggle and - perhaps - it is even more noticeable when considering genres other than the string quartet; for example, in chamber music for winds and strings. In a clarinet quintet - for example - the temptation of writing for "clarinet + strings" instead of writing for "clarinet + violin + violin + viola + cello" could be very strong. The influence of Rejcha and Krommer in this evolution was, to my opinion, of considerable importance: as Haydn and Beethoven didn't show a great interest in this kind of works, they were the composers with the highest technical knowledge of their time to deal directly with this problem (I think of Spohr as an alternative, but I don't know his music enough as to analyze his influence: perhaps Gurn or some other illustrated member could make a comment about his music).

Yes, and it must have been particularly difficult for such specialists as you mention, along with others like Danzi and Devienne, all 4 of whom were wind instrument specialists. And yet they pulled it off to some degree, moreso than, say Kreutzer who was French and to whom the brillant style was more natural and accepted. As I have posted on this forum many times in the past, the chamber combination(s) of wind instrument and string trio or quartet is one of my very favorite genres. Pity that, as you say, Beethoven didn't evince much interest in it. If he had, then the multitude that followed him in the 19th century might have kept it nicely alive (at least Brahms wrote a little bit). As for Spohr, I am not aware of his having written anything in this category. He did write a nice little piano & wond quintet ala Mozart & Beethoven though. :)


QuoteAnd here I arrive to a point of - perhaps - anticipating a third post by Gurn: the most impressive equality achieved by Rejcha in his wind quintets. These works are a major musical as well as historical achievement. While the string quartet shows three kinds of instruments, they are mutatis mutandis of a same nature, and so, their equal treatment can be regarded as quite natural; but to treat equally a horn, an oboe, a clarinet, a flute and a bassoon, and to do it remarkably as Rejcha did with works of the highest musical excellence, is more than just something to be noticed as an anecdote in some forgotten pages of musical history.

Well, I indeed would like to go there, but other than being aware of the issues of balance of tone and volume, I don't know enough about the context of the wind quintets to write about. I know that Reicha was teaching at the Paris Conservatory when he wrote them, and I seem to recall that there is some element of academic exercise to them, but finding solid information about these works has proven difficult (without a good library close by). So it goes. :)

8)


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Listening to:
Mozart Quartets pour flute - Concertino Nottorno Prague \ Kröper - 09. Quartet pour flute en La majeur (K298) pour flute, violon, viole, et violoncelle 1. Andante con variazioni
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 01:23:55 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 08, 2009, 06:54:41 AM
Gurn - excellent post, as usual; and agree that the development of the String Quartet was centered more on professional performance; an early example of course is our friend Luigi Boccherini, his earliest SQs were written in 1761, when he was but 18 y/o and on his way from Italy to Spain; these are labelled Op. 2 (1-6) and were composed for himself & his 'professional' buddies - of course, these are not the 4-movement (all are in 3 movements) works later 'perfected' by Haydn, but in those earlier years, I believe that the two composers were 'bouncing' ideas off each other, esp. the greater role of the cello in this string ensemble as evident by Luigi's writing & playing.  Dave

Thanks, Dave. As you say, Boccherini and Haydn were seemingly well-aware of each other's work. At the same time (1761-ish) Haydn was also writing "quartets", but his Op 1 & 2 were in 5 movements rather than 3. And I know that Haydn called his (and considered them to be) divertimentos, and I think that maybe Boccherini's could be classed as such too. Neither of them had yet achieved the concision that would eventually mark the string quartet as we know it. But even then, the works had a target audience, and it was musicians, so the hypothesis still holds true. I definitely plan on expanding my Boccherini string quartet collection. Right now I don't have many, and they are all rather later (Op 36 and up). :)

8)

----------------
Listening to: Accademia I Filarmonici-Martini - RV 314a Concerto for Violin in G 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 01:25:59 PM
I have been shopping all over the Internet for the last couple of days for a disk of Vanhal string quartets. You would think that with nearly 100 to choose from, and the generally high quality of his music, that there would be a few disks out there, but nooooo.... :-\

Ideas?

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Accademia I Filarmonici-Martini - RV 314a Concerto for Violin in G 3rd mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 08, 2009, 02:03:32 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 01:25:59 PM
I have been shopping all over the Internet for the last couple of days for a disk of Vanhal string quartets. You would think that with nearly 100 to choose from, and the generally high quality of his music, that there would be a few disks out there, but nooooo.... :-\

Ideas?



Gurn - the only disc of Vanhal's SQs that I own is shown below - Kubin Quartet on a label called 'MusicSonic' - nothing at BRO currently, but that must have been the place for me?  Will have to give it a spin soon -  :)

Boccherini wrote a bunch of String Quartets - listed HERE (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/boclchb4.html); at least 90+, maybe a 100!  I just have 2 discs of his SQs - the Op. 2 works mentioned previously, then one CD on Capriccio - must look into acquiring some more!  But, I do have a lot more of the String Quintets, which he did so well! - Dave


(http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cl900/l918/l91843j3gn2.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 02:15:22 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 01:25:59 PM
I have been shopping all over the Internet for the last couple of days for a disk of Vanhal string quartets. You would think that with nearly 100 to choose from, and the generally high quality of his music, that there would be a few disks out there, but nooooo.... :-\

Thanks, Dave, for showing that CD. I didn't know any Vanhal string quartet recordings. In what keys are they written?

Quote from: SonicMan on April 08, 2009, 06:54:41 AM
Gurn - excellent post, as usual; and agree that the development of the String Quartet was centered more on professional performance; an early example of course is our friend Luigi Boccherini, his earliest SQs were written in 1761, when he was but 18 y/o and on his way from Italy to Spain; these are labelled Op. 2 (1-6) and were composed for himself & his 'professional' buddies - of course, these are not the 4-movement (all are in 3 movements) works later 'perfected' by Haydn, but in those earlier years, I believe that the two composers were 'bouncing' ideas off each other, esp. the greater role of the cello in this string ensemble as evident by Luigi's writing & playing.  Dave

Thanks for recalling Boccherini, Dave. Boccherini is a name that is usually forgotten and he has really stupendous music. I'm not deeply acquainted by his music, but it strikes me as sounding very different from the "Austrian" line. What I remember instantaneously about his excellent string quartets and quintets is that they show textures not to be found in the great Viennese composers. There must be more interesting features, but I recall specially this one.

I feel quite motivated today, because I bought the new Boccherini CD recorded by Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante for Virgin Classics. I have the two previous releases and they are nothing less than extraordinary. I hope this one (which I have not listened to yet) will keep on the same level. They play one trio (D major, op. 14/4, G. 98), one quartet (C minor, op. 41/1, G. 214), one quintet (C minor, op. 45/1, G. 355) and one sextet (F minor, op. 23/4, G. 457). Quite a proliferation of minor-key works! (Unfortunately my headphones collapsed yesterday and today I didn't have time for buying a replacement, so any comment will have to wait at least until tomorrow).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 08, 2009, 02:03:32 PM


Gurn - the only disc of Vanhal's SQs that I own is shown below - Kubin Quartet on a label called 'MusicSonic' - nothing at BRO currently, but that must have been the place for me?  Will have to give it a spin soon -  :)

Boccherini wrote a bunch of String Quartets - listed HERE (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/boclchb4.html); at least 90+, maybe a 100!  I just have 2 discs of his SQs - the Op. 2 works mentioned previously, then one CD on Capriccio - must look into acquiring some more!  But, I do have a lot more of the String Quintets, which he did so well! - Dave


(http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cl900/l918/l91843j3gn2.jpg)

Ah, so that is the one they had on Amazon (no picture) that is OOP. Pity, it looks good.

Yes, there is no shortage of Boccherini quartets, thankfully. I was a little bit bewildered about where to start, actually. I have quite a few quintets too. Very fine works. Luigi is among the most underrated composers, not only of the Classical Era, but of any era!

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Accademia I Filarmonici-Martini - RV 366 Concerto for Violin in Bb-1st mvmt-Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 03:11:32 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 03:06:34 PM
Yes, there is no shortage of Boccherini quartets, thankfully. I was a little bit bewildered about where to start, actually. I have quite a few quintets too. Very fine works. Luigi is among the most underrated composers, not only of the Classical Era, but of any era!

I fully agree, Gurn.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 03:13:01 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 02:15:22 PM
Thanks, Dave, for showing that CD. I didn't know any Vanhal string quartet recordings. In what keys are they written?

Thanks for recalling Boccherini, Dave. Boccherini is a name that is usually forgotten and he has really stupendous music. I'm not deeply acquainted by his music, but it strikes me as sounding very different from the "Austrian" line. What I remember instantaneously about his excellent string quartets and quintets is that they show textures not to be found in the great Viennese composers. There must be more interesting features, but I recall specially this one.

I feel quite motivated today, because I bought the new Boccherini CD recorded by Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante for Virgin Classics. I have the two previous releases and they are nothing less than extraordinary. I hope this one (which I have not listened to yet) will keep on the same level. They play one trio (D major, op. 14/4, G. 98), one quartet (C minor, op. 41/1, G. 214), one quintet (C minor, op. 45/1, G. 355) and one sextet (F minor, op. 23/4, G. 457). Quite a proliferation of minor-key works! (Unfortunately my headphones collapsed yesterday and today I didn't have time for buying a replacement, so any comment will have to wait at least until tomorrow).

Gabriel,
I have their disk of string quintets, Op 25. I quite agree, it is first rate. I haven't seen either of the others though, guess I need to hunt them down. Thanks for pointing it out. For those who might not have it, I would also add that this one, by Savall et al is a very fine disk too. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61JTY209AWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Accademia I Filarmonici-Martini - RV 366 Concerto for Violin in Bb-3rd mvmt-Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 03:28:48 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 03:13:01 PM
For those who might not have it, I would also add that this one, by Savall et al is a very fine disk too. :)

Gurn, that Savall CD is pure delight. If I had to introduce Boccherini's music to someone, I would certainly choose that CD: it is a winner.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 08, 2009, 03:43:58 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 02:15:22 PM
Thanks, Dave, for showing that CD. I didn't know any Vanhal string quartet recordings. In what keys are they written?


Hi Gabriel - just returned home from work & decided to give that Vanhal disc a spin - also, scanned in some pics below, better showing the cover & the back notes w/ the SQ listing & their keys; the Kubin Quartet have been together since forming after their student days in 1972; don't believe that I have any other recordings by this group (although a statement in the booklet excited me, i.e. a recent release by Multisonic, containing a complete set of string quartets by Karl Ditters - I already have a couple of discs of von Dittersdorf's String Quartets/Quintets, and not sure how many of these chamber works he wrote?

As can be seen from the listing, these works are in 3 movements and in various keys - composed between 1769 and 1773; recorded in 2002, and stated to be 'World Premiere Recordings' - just is amazing 'how much' of this stuff was either lost, lays undiscovered, or even known but not recorded - thank goodness their are performers willing to research these now more obscure composers and record their music; Dieter Klöcker is an artist that I greatly admire not only for his wonderful skills on the clarinet, but his diligence & persistence in recording this type of repertoire!

Again from the liner notes, the statement is made that Johann Dlabač, who had met Vanhal, and published a lexicon in 1815 attributes 100 symphonies, 100 string quartets, and nearly a hundred church compositions to Vanhal - boy, where is this stuff!  Dave  ;D

P.S. that disc is just wonderful - great sting playing by an obviously experience group & excellent sound by this Czech Republic company!

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/508457084_WMVDy-M.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/508457081_4dAWm-M.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/508457090_SXWyb-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 08, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 03:28:48 PM
Gurn, that Savall CD is pure delight. If I had to introduce Boccherini's music to someone, I would certainly choose that CD: it is a winner.

Yes, agree w/ both of you about Boccherini - I now have about 3 dozen discs of his music (just one vocal), and could easily obtain more!  Luigi's output was just phenomenal - for those interested, check out THIS CATALOG (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/bocl.html) of his works (Gurn & I have provided this link before, and probably in both the new & old forums!) -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 03:59:33 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 08, 2009, 03:43:58 PM
Hi Gabriel - just returned home from work & decided to give that Vanhal disc a spin - also, scanned in some pics below, better showing the cover & the back notes w/ the SQ listing & their keys; the Kubin Quartet have been together since forming after their student days in 1972; don't believe that I have any other recordings by this group (although a statement in the booklet excited me, i.e. a recent release by Multisonic, containing a complete set of string quartets by Karl Ditters - I already have a couple of discs of von Dittersdorf's String Quartets/Quintets, and not sure how many of these chamber works he wrote?

As can be seen from the listing, these works are in 3 movements and in various keys - composed between 1769 and 1773; recorded in 2002, and stated to be 'World Premiere Recordings' - just is amazing 'how much' of this stuff was either lost, lays undiscovered, or even known but not recorded - thank goodness their are performers willing to research these now more obscure composers and record their music; Dieter Klöcker is an artist that I greatly admired not only for his wonderful skills on the clarinet, but his diligence & persistence in recording this type of repertoire!

Again from the liner notes, the statement is made that Johann Dlabač, who had met Vanhal, and published a lexicon in 1815 attributes 100 symphonies, 100 string quartets, and nearly a hundred church compositions to Vanhal - boy, where is this stuff!  Dave  ;D

P.S. that disc is just wonderful - great sting playing by an obviously experience group & excellent sound by this Czech Republic company!

Dave, thank you so much for such an informative post. Looking at the back notes makes me hesitate a little bit about my statement that I hadn't seen the CD... I'm afraid I had it once in my hands and I didn't buy it. I'm sure there's excellent music in it.

All that stuff is waiting to be played after so many years! Luckily we have some champions of this kind of repertoire. For example, there's a recent CD of Vanhal's piano quintets in Hungaroton. I wonder if any GMG member has bought it.

Finally, on Ditters von Dittersdorf, Dave, as far as I know he just composed the set of six string quartets that you probably own in a couple of discs. They are not a non plus ultra in chamber music, but they are very enjoyable, light-spirited works.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 04:40:40 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 03:59:33 PM
Dave, thank you so much for such an informative post. Looking at the back notes makes me hesitate a little bit about my statement that I hadn't seen the CD... I'm afraid I had it once in my hands and I didn't buy it. I'm sure there's excellent music in it.

All that stuff is waiting to be played after so many years! Luckily we have some champions of this kind of repertoire. For example, there's a recent CD of Vanhal's piano quintets in Hungaroton. I wonder if any GMG member has bought it.

Finally, on Ditters von Dittersdorf, Dave, as far as I know he just composed the set of six string quartets that you probably own in a couple of discs. They are not a non plus ultra in chamber music, but they are very enjoyable, light-spirited works.

I haven't bought that yet, not because I am not interested in it, but because I read a review by someone (on the Mozart Forum) who has taste similar to mine, and he was very disappointed in the playing of the Authentic String Quartet. Poor intonation, bad bowing, poor ensemble; the whole sad story. While his reaction may have been extreme, it sort of scared me off. I do like Spanyi on the keyboard though... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini Op. 23 - Sextets - Nos. 1,2,5 - Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #1 Sextet in Eb for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro molto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 04:44:50 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 08, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
Yes, agree w/ both of you about Boccherini - I now have about 3 dozen discs of his music (just one vocal), and could easily obtain more!  Luigi's output was just phenomenal - for those interested, check out THIS CATALOG (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/bocl.html) of his works (Gurn & I have provided this link before, and probably in both the new & old forums!) -  :)

Dave,
Here's a 2 disk set with all of Ditters 4tets HERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&text=ditters&filter=all&cd=1&Label=&genre=&RPP=25&pprice=&submit=Search)

I think I will pick this one up myself next time I order from BRO. I still have one order in the mail... :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini Op. 23 - Sextets - Nos. 1,2,5 - Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #1 Sextet in Eb for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro molto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 08, 2009, 05:00:25 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 04:44:50 PM
Dave,
Here's a 2 disk set with all of Ditters 4tets HERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&text=ditters&filter=all&cd=1&Label=&genre=&RPP=25&pprice=&submit=Search)

I think I will pick this one up myself next time I order from BRO. I still have one order in the mail... :)


Good evening, Gurn - thanks for that link from BRO - just checked my collection and have the 2 CDs from CPO shown below; both w/ the Franz Schubert Quartet, who perform quite well; includes the 6 SQs & 2 String Quintets, both clocking in at just over an hour - guess that I'm OK for the moment - Dave  :D

(http://www.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/999038-2.gif)  (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/cpo9991222.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 05:04:58 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 08, 2009, 05:00:25 PM
Good evening, Gurn - thanks for that link from BRO - just checked my collection and have the 2 CDs from CPO shown below; both w/ the Franz Schubert Quartet, who perform quite well; includes the 6 SQs & 2 String Quintets, both clocking in at just over an hour - guess that I'm OK for the moment - Dave  :D

(http://www.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/999038-2.gif)  (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/cpo9991222.jpg)

Ah yes, I saw that at Amazon this afternoon. You like, eh? Well, I might just go ahead and pick those up instead. I didn't know the performers in either case, so I didn't have a preference. :)

8)

PS - the disk I'm listening to now is pretty excellent, too! ;)

----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini Op. 23 - Sextets - Nos. 1,2,5 - Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #2 Sextet in Bb for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 08, 2009, 06:37:12 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2009, 05:04:58 PM
Ah yes, I saw that at Amazon this afternoon. You like, eh? Well, I might just go ahead and pick those up instead. I didn't know the performers in either case, so I didn't have a preference. :)

PS - the disk I'm listening to now is pretty excellent, too! ;)

Boccherini Op. 23 - Sextets - Nos. 1,2,5 - Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #2 Sextet in Bb for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Gurn - those two CPO discs are quite nice - don't think that you would be disappointed, plus both offer a 'full' disc of music - decent prices on the Amazon Marketplace (unless, of course, BRO picks them up as offerings?).

The Boccherini recording mentioned above looks enticing - I have a Capriccio CD of the Sextets w/ only one 'overlap', so would be a nice fit; unforutantely seems to be OOP for us in the USA -  :-\  Now, I own a disc of the same group performing in some of Luigi's Quintets - excellent, so what to do?  :'(  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 09, 2009, 03:45:26 AM
That Boccherini disc is fantastic.  A definite recommendation from me as well.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 09, 2009, 05:26:39 PM
Some words for my impressions, as announced, on Biondi's recent Boccherini CD. It reaches the standards of the previous two releases; it is almost unbelievable to notice how they are figuring out with utmost care every detail of the works recorded. The acid violence of op. 45 n. 1, the ambiguous, rhythmical drama of op. 23 n. 4, the splendid pathos of op. 41 n. 1, are shown as vividly as possible. And the potentially "less striking" work of this selection, trio op. 14 n. 4, is so wonderfully balanced, crafted and articulated that it almost seems that the players are singing instead of playing.

The Boccherini-Biondi association is proving to be really extraordinary. Supported with great sound, this is almost unbeatable.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2009, 05:51:36 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 09, 2009, 05:26:39 PM
Some words for my impressions, as announced, on Biondi's recent Boccherini CD. It reaches the standards of the previous two releases; it is almost unbelievable to notice how they are figuring out with utmost care every detail of the works recorded. The acid violence of op. 45 n. 1, the ambiguous, rhythmical drama of op. 23 n. 4, the splendid pathos of op. 41 n. 1, are shown as vividly as possible. And the potentially "less striking" work of this selection, trio op. 14 n. 4, is so wonderfully balanced, crafted and articulated that it almost seems that the players are singing instead of playing.

The Boccherini-Biondi association is proving to be really extraordinary. Supported with great sound, this is almost unbeatable.

Sounds outstanding, Gabriel. I will need to get the other 2 disks in this series. I relistened today to the Op 25 quintets disk. Stuck away at the end of that disk is a single movement, known even in its own time as "The Famous Minuet", it is the minuet movement of quintet Op 11 #5 in E. Even if one doesn't know it by name or description, one has only to hear the first 4 bars to know exactly which piece I am talking about. In any case, I have several versions of this work, so I hadn't given it a deep listening. Turns out, I was missing a treat. It is replete with small, very expressive changes in tempo, especially where the trio starts out, when it goes from Allegretto to Allegro seemingly. It is a very nice move, and one that no one else I have listened to has done quite like it. So I agree, Boccherini + Biondi = great listening enjoyment. :)

8)



----------------
Listening to:
Accademia i Filarmonici di Verona / Bronzi - G 474 Concerto #05 in Eb for Cello, 2 Oboes & 2 Horns 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2009, 08:09:49 PM
How's your Czerny collection, Gurn?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Anne on April 09, 2009, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 08, 2009, 06:37:12 PM
Gurn - those two CPO discs are quite nice - don't think that you would be disappointed, plus both offer a 'full' disc of music - decent prices on the Amazon Marketplace (unless, of course, BRO picks them up as offerings?).

The Boccherini recording mentioned above looks enticing - I have a Capriccio CD of the Sextets w/ only one 'overlap', so would be a nice fit; unforutantely seems to be OOP for us in the USA -  :-\  Now, I own a disc of the same group performing in some of Luigi's Quintets - excellent, so what to do?  :'(  Dave

Dave, did you try amazon.ca or amazon.uk?  I have ordered things from both places with no problem.  We also don't get charged with extra taxes.  The only thing one has to be careful about is ordering DVD from England - Canada and we use NTSC and England uses PAL.  Unless we have a universal player, we cannot use PAL.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 10, 2009, 04:23:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 09, 2009, 08:09:49 PM
How's your Czerny collection, Gurn?

Karl - is Gurn the only one that can respond?   ;) :D

I should get some more Carl Czerny, myself - currently:

Symphonies Nos. 2 & 6 w/ Nowak on Hanssler - states No. 6 a 'Premiere Recording', so yet another 'forgotten one'!

Horn & Foretpiano Music w/ Andrew Clark & Geoffrey Govier on Helios

Nonet & Grande Serenade, Op. 126 w/ Tanski on piano & Consortium Classicum on MDG

Any other recommendations - anyone?  Thanks - Dave  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 10, 2009, 04:25:43 AM
Quote from: Anne on April 09, 2009, 08:21:01 PM
Dave, did you try amazon.ca or amazon.uk?  I have ordered things from both places with no problem.  We also don't get charged with extra taxes.  The only thing one has to be careful about is ordering DVD from England - Canada and we use NTSC and England uses PAL.  Unless we have a universal player, we cannot use PAL.

Hello Anne - I've used Amazon.UK in the past, but will give both a look - thanks!  Dave  :-*
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 10, 2009, 05:05:08 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 10, 2009, 04:23:42 AM
Karl - is Gurn the only one that can respond?   ;) :D

Not at all, Dave  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2009, 07:29:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 09, 2009, 08:09:49 PM
How's your Czerny collection, Gurn?

Actually, it is fairly representative of his variety, Karl. I have 2 of his piano sonatas (in Ab and f (Lovely!)), a 4 hand concerto, symphonies #1, 2 5 & 6, and a solo piano piece "Grand Funeral March for the Death of Beethoven". As you know, Czerny was a student and confidant of Beethoven, and also Liszt's teacher, so his career spanned the end of classicism and the beginning of Romanticism. He is hard to buttonhole. He was a superb pianist, but didn't necessarily believe that he was. He didn't perform in public as a result. But he was a preeminent teacher, and his "Piano Method" is still taught today. A lot of his works (nearly 1000 opus numbers!) are thus etudes or whatever else he chose to call them.  Generally I am quite fond of his music and ought to get more of it. I have been looking at that disk that Dave mentioned, the sonatas for fortepiano & horn. I suspect that's a peach. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Accademia i Filarmonici di Verona / Bronzi - G 481 Concerto #04 in C for Cello & 2 Horns 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
Valentino.
You asked last week about classical composers who wrote fugues. I had a brain fart at the time, but our discussion about Boccherini reminded me of this disk. It now seems to be OOP, but I would be surprised if it was the only recording ever made of these works. I listened to them just a few minutes ago and they were as nice as I remembered. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515mLLdIpsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini - Cello Sonatas - Fugues For 2 Cellos - Anner Bylsma / Kenneth Slowik / Bob van Asperen - Boccherini G 009 Sonata in F for Cello 1st mvmt - Andantino
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 06:12:30 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
Valentino.
You asked last week about classical composers who wrote fugues. I had a brain fart at the time, but our discussion about Boccherini reminded me of this disk. It now seems to be OOP, but I would be surprised if it was the only recording ever made of these works. I listened to them just a few minutes ago and they were as nice as I remembered. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515mLLdIpsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini - Cello Sonatas - Fugues For 2 Cellos - Anner Bylsma / Kenneth Slowik / Bob van Asperen - Boccherini G 009 Sonata in F for Cello 1st mvmt - Andantino


Off-topic: Curiously on Monday I received a disc with Kenneth Slowick playing the fortepiano (a Rodney J. Regier, Freeport, ME, 1985 after Conrad Graf). He established his reputation as a cellist and viola da gamba player; but here his playing on the pianoforte is excellent. He and Max van Egmond built an extraordinary disc. The session producer was Peter Watchorn.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2009, 06:18:02 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 06:12:30 PM
Off-topic: Curiously on Monday I received a disc with Kenneth Slowick playing the fortepiano (a Rodney J. Regier, Freeport, ME, 1985 after Conrad Graf). He established his reputation as a cellist and viola da gamba player; but here his playing on the pianoforte is excellent. He and Max van Egmond built an extraordinary disc. The session producer was Peter Watchorn.

Interesting, Antoine. It is not so unusual for someone to play more than one instrument, but to play 2 as disparate as cello and fortepiano probably is. I understand that the modern violinist, Arthur Grumiaux was a concert-class pianist as well as a violinist, so I guess it isn't unheard of. Cool nonetheless. And that disk looks interesting too. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Anner Bylsma / Kenneth Slowik / Bob van Asperen - Boccherini G 073 #2 Fugue in F for 2 Cellos - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 06:33:43 PM
I recall the name of Jérôme Hantaï. He is, as we know, a viola da gamba player, but he has at least two discs as a fortepianist (some piano sonatas and piano trios, I think). I don't know those discs, but some reviews have not been benevolent with him. Here for example: http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9223. In any case I would like to listen to those discs because some critics or reviewers simply heat the pianoforte.

P.S.: Some days ago I listened to a disc with songs composed by Beethoven, with Hantaï on the fortepiano. Very disappointing indeed, but I could blame the horrible acoustics in the local store.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2009, 06:43:22 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2009, 06:33:43 PM
I recall the case of Jérôme Hantaï. He is, as we know, a viola da gamba player, but has at least two discs as a fortepianist (some piano sonatas and piano trios, I think). I don't know those discs, but the reviews have not been benevolent with him.

Yikes, I hadn't heard that. What a blow for him. :o   Well, there aren't enough good gambists in the world, and we are overrun with keyboardists, so that should tell him something. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini Op. 23 - Sextets - Nos. 1,2,5 - Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #1 Sextet in Eb for Strings 3rd mvmt - Minuetto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on April 10, 2009, 07:00:10 PM
I do have a recording of Hantai playing the keyboard. It isn't bad at all. But considering the competition, it won't be collector's item.

Speaking of Gamba players, I should put in a plug for my friend Jay Bernfeld. He is a remarkable musician. His first love is really opera. He has been known to sing mostly baroque or pre-baroque repertoire. But it is his gamba playing that is so impressive. I have many of his recordings of course. But I have only heard him play once, that being the first and only time we have met. I was unable to make it to his concert in SF. To my surprise, he drove to Los Angeles after the concert and showed up at my door the next day. He played a recital at my home just for me. I was deeply moved. We shared a long conversation about music, interestingly mostly about opera. His favorite is Tebaldi. I gave him about a dozen opera recordings as gift.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2009, 08:31:50 AM
Quote from: springrite on April 10, 2009, 07:00:10 PM
I do have a recording of Hantai playing the keyboard. It isn't bad at all. But considering the competition, it won't be collector's item.

Yes, there are some damned fine fortepianists out there nowadays. And of course, it is a different instrument than the modern piano so even a great modern pianist would need some time to learn it. But the competition is stiff, as you say. :)

QuoteSpeaking of Gamba players, I should put in a plug for my friend Jay Bernfeld. He is a remarkable musician. His first love is really opera. He has been known to sing mostly baroque or pre-baroque repertoire. But it is his gamba playing that is so impressive. I have many of his recordings of course. But I have only heard him play once, that being the first and only time we have met. I was unable to make it to his concert in SF. To my surprise, he drove to Los Angeles after the concert and showed up at my door the next day. He played a recital at my home just for me. I was deeply moved. We shared a long conversation about music, interestingly mostly about opera. His favorite is Tebaldi. I gave him about a dozen opera recordings as gift.

Now, that would be cool! To have a really good gambist come over to the house and give a private recital. I'm jealous!  Very nice. :)

8)



----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini Op. 23 - Sextets - Nos. 1,2,5 - Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #2 Sextet in Bb for Strings 3rd mvmt - Minuetto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 11, 2009, 12:48:27 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2009, 07:29:12 AM
........ Generally I am quite fond of his music and ought to get more of it. I have been looking at that disk that Dave mentioned, the sonatas for fortepiano & horn. I suspect that's a peach. :)

Hello Gurn - just returned home from an overnight in Charlotte (Mint Museum had a nice exhibit to benefit New Orleans - a substantial collection, nearly 100 pieces, from their Art Museum, traveling to various cities) -  :D

But, the disc mentioned of Czerny's Horn & Fortepiano Works is fascinating - have it spinning now just as an aural reminder to me -  ;) ;D

Geoffrey Govier is playing a fortepiano built in 1839 by the Viennese maker Johann Streicher; there is no iron incorporated into the case according to the liner notes; the instrument has been restored, as expected.  Andrew Clark plays a 'valved' horn on the first piece (see back cover below) - apparently intentionally written for that 'new' instrument; Czerny then seem to go back to the 'natural' horn which was used on the remainder of the disc (noticed the difference in Opus numbers reflecting that shift of instruments).

Most of the CD consists of the Brillante Fantasie, Op. 339, Nos. 1-3 - these were written ca. 1836 and were based on the 'melodies' of Franz Schubert, presumably considered more of a compliment to a composer back in those days.  Overall, a fabulous disc and (just checked) still available @ BRO for $5!

As you already mentioned, the guy wrote about a 1000 compositions of ALL types!  Wiki has a lising of over 800 Opus Nos. HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Carl_Czerny) w/ a number not ascribed.  Much of this work seems to be un- or under-recorded, so any recommendations would be of interest - thanks all - Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/510202045_NRwo2-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/510202053_PYQrA-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 11, 2009, 04:46:56 PM
I'm following your opinions about Czerny's music, which is quite unknown to me. :)

I have good news for Krommer fans. A third recording of the string trio op. 96 has just been released by the small Diligence label, together with the Flute quartet op. 92 and (as far as I know, a world première) the three Hungarian Dances op. 89. They are played by Nicole Tamestit & La Compagnie.

As a general view, they are very good performances; the main problem is that I feel the acoustics as a bit dry, but this situation doesn't bother too much the listening experience. The Hungarian Dances in the CD are one of the most evident examples available of national flavour to be found in the classical period; and concerning Hungarian music during these years, as evident as probably no other work I know excepting the Hungarian Dances for keyboard, op. 23, by Hummel.

A delightful release.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2009, 05:25:00 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 11, 2009, 12:48:27 PM
Hello Gurn - just returned home from an overnight in Charlotte (Mint Museum had a nice exhibit to benefit New Orleans - a substantial collection, nearly 100 pieces, from their Art Museum, traveling to various cities) -  :D

But, the disc mentioned of Czerny's Horn & Fortepiano Works is fascinating - have it spinning now just as an aural reminder to me -  ;) ;D

Geoffrey Govier is playing a fortepiano built in 1839 by the Viennese maker Johann Streicher; there is no iron incorporated into the case according to the liner notes; the instrument has been restored, as expected.  Andrew Clark plays a 'valved' horn on the first piece (see back cover below) - apparently intentionally written for that 'new' instrument; Czerny then seem to go back to the 'natural' horn which was used on the remainder of the disc (noticed the difference in Opus numbers reflecting that shift of instruments).

Most of the CD consists of the Brillante Fantasie, Op. 339, Nos. 1-3 - these were written ca. 1836 and were based on the 'melodies' of Franz Schubert, presumably considered more of a compliment to a composer back in those days.  Overall, a fabulous disc and (just checked) still available @ BRO for $5!

As you already mentioned, the guy wrote about a 1000 compositions of ALL types!  Wiki has a lising of over 800 Opus Nos. HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Carl_Czerny) w/ a number not ascribed.  Much of this work seems to be un- or under-recorded, so any recommendations would be of interest - thanks all - Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/510202045_NRwo2-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/510202053_PYQrA-S.jpg)

Thanks for the rundown on that disk, Dave. I hadn't found any reviews on it to even know what was on there. I do have Govier playing a disk of Dussek sonatas, which is also available at BRO, BTW. It is really quite good. Makes me want to pick up that disk of his Haydn sonatas too... :)  I guess my next BRO order will have to include the Czerny. Damn, that list just gets longer and longer. Don't you realize that i have some Haydn string quartets to save up for now? :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini: Quartets - Consortium Classicum - Quartet for clarinet, flute, horn & bassoon in F major, G. 263/2 (arranged by Othin Van den Broek): No. 3, Menuetto (trio)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2009, 05:29:53 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 11, 2009, 04:46:56 PM
I'm following your opinions about Czerny's music, which is quite unknown to me. :)

You might start out with a disk of fortepiano sonatas, Gabriel. He really is quite good (as you would expect from a long time Beethoven student).

QuoteI have good news for Krommer fans. A third recording of the string trio op. 96 has just been released by the small Diligence label, together with the Flute quartet op. 92 and (as far as I know, a world première) the three Hungarian Dances op. 89. They are played by Nicole Tamestit & La Compagnie.

As a general view, they are very good performances; the main problem is that I feel the acoustics as a bit dry, but this situation doesn't bother too much the listening experience. The Hungarian Dances in the CD are one of the most evident examples available of national flavour to be found in the classical period; and concerning Hungarian music during these years, as evident as probably no other work I know excepting the Hungarian Dances for keyboard, op. 23, by Hummel.

A delightful release.

Somehow I think that Paris must have a better selection of classical music than Nacogdoches, TX has... :)

I will definitely give that disk a try if it comes available in the States. Or if the dollar strengthens vis-a-vis the Euro...  I already didn't have those works when you guys were talking about them earlier, and this one has the added bonus of the Hungarian Dances, a genre which has always pleased me no end. I love Rom music, real or imagined.  :)

8)



----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini: Quartets - Consortium Classicum - Quartet for clarinet, flute, horn & bassoon in C major, G. 262/3 (arranged by Othon Van den Broek): No. 1, Allegro con moto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2009, 08:36:41 AM
Interrelationships and influences between composers -

The recent post on Czerny (student of Beethoven, teacher of Liszt) reminded me on an interest I pursued a few years ago. And disappointed me at the same time due to my failure to write things down and not foresee that my memory would not always be the extraordinary tool it once was. ::)  In any case, the topic was direct relationships and musical influences between composers. Not in the sense of "he had to have heard X's work..." but rather "he knew X and learned from him or taught him...".

As an example: when Mozart was in Paris as an 8 year old wunderkind, he met Schobert and played his music with Schobert right there. His early violin/keyboard sonatas are in this French style directly influenced by Schobert. And a few months later, he met and spent a great deal of time with J.C. Bach, who again was a big influence on the early works. The galant style of much of Mozart's works up to 1772 or so can be directly attributed to the London Bach.

I wrote a long post on this topic in the old forum and I will look it up because I find it interesting, and you may too. But if you have any interesting examples (like Reicha and Beethoven), please post them here. It is amazing how this community was so tight, in a day and time when communication and travel were not what they are now. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Harnoncourt - Haydn: The Seven Last Phrases of Christ on the Cross -  - The Seven Last Phrases of Christ on the Cross: III. "Führwahr, ich sag'es dir"
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2009, 10:24:57 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2009, 08:36:41 AM
Interrelationships and influences between composers -

The recent post on Czerny (student of Beethoven, teacher of Liszt) reminded me on an interest I pursued a few years ago. And disappointed me at the same time due to my failure to write things down and not foresee that my memory would not always be the extraordinary tool it once was. ::)  In any case, the topic was direct relationships and musical influences between composers. Not in the sense of "he had to have heard X's work..." but rather "he knew X and learned from him or taught him...".

Of course, at the Baroque-Classical transition were the Bach sons & their father; at the other end, one good example would be Ferdinand Ries (1784-1838) - Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Ries) - Beethoven was a major influence; both composers were born in Bonn; Ries' father, Franz Anton (1755-1846) was a violin virtuoso in the Bonn court orchestra, and taught the young Beethoven to play violin, and also gave lessons in violin & piano to his son.  The younger Ries ended up in Vienna, and over 4 years worked for Beethoven as a copyist and secretary, receiving piano lessons as compensation.  He composed much music, and his early works were strongly influenced by Beethoven; "He ........ left eight symphonies, a violin concerto and nine piano concertos, and numerous other works in many genres, including 26 string quartets", plus plenty of chamber and other piano works.

I've really enjoyed Ries' music over the years, and have obtained quite a bit, mostly on the CPO label; for those who may want to explore this composer and depending on your interests, below is 'what' I currently own - and I can't say that I dislike any of this music - the guy was good!

Complete Symphonies w/ Howard Griffiths & Surcher Kammerorchester on CPO - includes 8 symphonies recorded from 1997-1002; 4 CD box set.
Clarinet Sonatas & Clarinet Trio w/ Dieter Klocker; Armin Fromm on cello & Thomas Duis on piano - CPO; recorded 2003-4.
Flute Quartets w/ John Littlefield on flute; violin, viola, & cello the other instruments; on Naxos from 2006.
Piano Quartets w/ Andreas Frolich on piano; same strings, as above; CPO, recorded in 2002.
Piano Quintet w/ Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet; also includes similar work by Franz Limmer; on Brilliant, 2003.
Piano Trios w/ Mendelssohn Trio Berlin; again from CPO, dated 2004.
Septet & Octet w/ Linos Ensemble; CPO from 2002.
String Quartets, Vol. 1 w/ Schuppanizigh Quartett; CPO, 2004 - BOY, only 2 of 26!  Not sure 'how many' of the SQs have been recorded?

Hmmm - no Piano Concertos & a bunch of SQs missing; will appreciate comments on other options & 'new' additions - Dave  :)


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/FerdinandRies.jpg/180px-FerdinandRies.jpg)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 17, 2009, 04:57:00 PM
Well, a little surprised that no posts have been made to this thread in the last 5 days since the last one that I left!  And no comments at all on Ries, an excellent composer pertinent to the questions raised by Gurn concerning composer influences?  :-\

But, I'll bring up another Viennese 'transitional' composer, Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823); he was born in the county of Glatz, Silesia, and the details of his early life and musical education seem obscure, athough he spent some time in Prague; in the mid-to later 1770s, he arrived in Vienna, and was active as a teacher, composer, and a member of a quartet until his death; thus, he spent nearly 50 years in Vienna and was pretty much a 'freelance' muscian - boy, how well and how many of the other composers of that LONG time period did he know?  Is there a BIO?

Apparently, Förster was a prolific composer with a main interest in chamber works - right up my alley!  :D

He wrote numerous works for piano, including a sextet & octet; four string quintets (including the works on the CD shown below), and 48 string quartets!  Apparently, few of his works have been published or recorded - yet another lost soul of that era - just sad -  :'(

My first experience to this composer are the works for String Quintet w/ the Les Adieux, apparently a group who are specializing in the works of these 'transitional' composers of the late 18th & early 19th centuries up to about 1840 (hey - what a period of interest for me!) - just listening to this disc for the first time - not sure what else is available for this composer, but I'd like to hear from others, please -  :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4019272978319.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Emanuel_Aloys_Foerster.jpg/398px-Emanuel_Aloys_Foerster.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2009, 05:25:37 PM
Hey, Dave,
No, I've been a bit under the weather for a few days, better now though. :)

I would be delighted to expand on Ries in a bit, I have a fair bit of his music and enjoy it.

I have, however, with uncanny accuracy in re your choices, received these disks yesterday and today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Forstercover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bocc5tets415.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Kraustriovp.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/fieldsonatas.jpg)

As you say, the Förster is a wonder. I have only listened to the first disk so far, but that fantasia in d is just super. I was intrigued by the statement in the notes that the manuscript wasn't published because it was too technically difficult for the technology of the time. Something we don't often take into consideration.

The Boccherini disk was a great surprise for me. I have been watching this (OOP) disk for a long time, but the price was always prohibitive. Then I saw it for $7.49 at the Marketplace. The other 2 copies were $55 and $132 respectively, so I was suspicious, especially since it was advertised as "like new, only lacking shrink wrap". But I got it anyway, and guess what? It was "like new, only lacking shrink wrap"!! Even the jewel case is shiny bright, and the disk didn't even have a fingerprint on it!  I am giving it a first listen right now. First impression? This ain't your mother's Boccherini! These were his last works, and they were serious, intricate, beautiful music. And Ensemble 415 is, as always, impeccable. If you run into a deal on it, don't hesitate!

The Kraus is one I have been looking forward to. BRO have it, and you should like it, I think. We really need to give Kraus some airing. We have talked about the symphonies in the past (get 'em!), and I have the string quartets and fortepiano sonatas (Brautigam). These disks are the violin and fortepiano sonatas, and a piano trio, along with the arrangement of the Eb violin sonata for solo keyboard. Excellent disks! :)

And finally, as we discussed earlier, the complete (4) piano sonatas of John Field. I haven't listened to this one yet, so I will have to wait until tomorrow or Sunday to comment on them.

It was a great week for new music!  :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - Boccherini: Quintettes avec deux altos - Luigi Boccherini - Op. 60/5 : I Allegro con moto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2009, 07:52:22 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 12, 2009, 10:24:57 AM
Of course, at the Baroque-Classical transition were the Bach sons & their father; at the other end, one good example would be Ferdinand Ries (1784-1838) - Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Ries) - Beethoven was a major influence; both composers were born in Bonn; Ries' father, Franz Anton (1755-1846) was a violin virtuoso in the Bonn court orchestra, and taught the young Beethoven to play violin, and also gave lessons in violin & piano to his son.  The younger Ries ended up in Vienna, and over 4 years worked for Beethoven as a copyist and secretary, receiving piano lessons as compensation.  He composed much music, and his early works were strongly influenced by Beethoven; "He ........ left eight symphonies, a violin concerto and nine piano concertos, and numerous other works in many genres, including 26 string quartets", plus plenty of chamber and other piano works.

I've really enjoyed Ries' music over the years, and have obtained quite a bit, mostly on the CPO label; for those who may want to explore this composer and depending on your interests, below is 'what' I currently own - and I can't say that I dislike any of this music - the guy was good!

Complete Symphonies w/ Howard Griffiths & Surcher Kammerorchester on CPO - includes 8 symphonies recorded from 1997-1002; 4 CD box set.
Clarinet Sonatas & Clarinet Trio w/ Dieter Klocker; Armin Fromm on cello & Thomas Duis on piano - CPO; recorded 2003-4.
Flute Quartets w/ John Littlefield on flute; violin, viola, & cello the other instruments; on Naxos from 2006.
Piano Quartets w/ Andreas Frolich on piano; same strings, as above; CPO, recorded in 2002.
Piano Quintet w/ Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet; also includes similar work by Franz Limmer; on Brilliant, 2003.
Piano Trios w/ Mendelssohn Trio Berlin; again from CPO, dated 2004.
Septet & Octet w/ Linos Ensemble; CPO from 2002.
String Quartets, Vol. 1 w/ Schuppanizigh Quartett; CPO, 2004 - BOY, only 2 of 26!  Not sure 'how many' of the SQs have been recorded?

Hmmm - no Piano Concertos & a bunch of SQs missing; will appreciate comments on other options & 'new' additions - Dave  :)


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/FerdinandRies.jpg/180px-FerdinandRies.jpg)



Yes, a perfect example of influence. Oddly, other than the symphonies that we have in common, I have the piano sonatas and concertos rather than the chamber music that you have. An amazing divergence, given that 75% of my collection is chamber music. :)  The concertos are available on Naxos, and certainly worth picking up. And the sonatas are on CPO (1 disk that I have), and quite interesting. Unlike the symphonies, the sonatas are all Ries and little Beethoven. I would also add the clarinet trio, which I have on a Naxos disk with Beethoven's Op 38, which is his own arrangement of his Septet for clarinet trio. So, a doubly interesting disk. :)

Ries spent nearly the entire second half of his life in London, promoting his own and Beethoven's music (he brokered many of Beethoven's publisher deals, for example), and at some point in time, something occurred (what, exactly, it was, is not known) which caused a rift between the 2 of them. In any case, when listening to Ries' excellent symphonies, there is no doubt who his teacher was... ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2009, 01:15:08 PM
No love here for Kromien (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg242569.html#msg242569)?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: jhar26 on April 18, 2009, 04:01:35 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on March 10, 2009, 10:46:49 PM
Very interesting post, Gurn.  I have often wondered about this...  When do you stop using harpsichord and start using piano?  The practice seems to be any "Classical" work, but - as you have aptly pointed out - this runs into problems.  What about volume indications or the lack thereof?  Take Haydn's keyboard concerto in D, H. 23:11 - Pinnock and Koopman both seem to be of the notion that this is a harpsichord piece.  I assume this is do to a lack of crescendos/decrescendos and volume indications?
Well, it may be a harpsichord piece, but it sounds much better when played on a piano to my ears.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2009, 04:12:04 PM
Quote from: jhar26 on April 18, 2009, 04:01:35 PM
Well, it may be a harpsichord piece, but it sounds much better when played on a piano to my ears.

I prefer it on the fortepiano myself. According to what I have read, and also to what sounds best to ME, it IS intended for the fortepiano because of the written dynamics, just as Sorin says. And they are written into the autograph. Of course, this was right in the transitional time when a lot of works were claimed as being "for fortepiano or harpsichord", but that is just pandering to the audience, really, since the intentions of the composer can't be properly reproduced on the harpsichord. As for Pinnock and Koopman, well, they are both harpsichordists, what else would they say? :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn: The Complete Overtures - Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Philemon und Baucis: Overture in d
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2009, 04:28:16 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2009, 04:12:04 PM
. . . Of course, this was right in the transitional time when a lot of works were claimed as being "for fortepiano or harpsichord", but that is just pandering to the audience, really, since the intentions of the composer can't be properly reproduced on the harpsichord.

Pandering to the audience, or realistic expectations of how the homes of your market are musically equipped? . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2009, 04:34:06 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 18, 2009, 04:28:16 PM
Pandering to the audience, or realistic expectations of how the homes of your market are musically equipped? . . .

Absolutely right, Doctor H. However, by 1800, the expectation was not as realistic, but the tradition continued... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn: The Complete Overtures - Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Die Sieben Letzten Worte Unseres Erlösers Am Kreuze: Introduzione in d
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2009, 04:36:24 PM
Even "grandfathering" has a history, Gurn  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2009, 04:40:56 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 18, 2009, 04:36:24 PM
Even "grandfathering" has a history, Gurn  8)

Yes indeed. One shouldn't allow oneself to be misled by such vestigial customs though. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn: The Complete Overtures - Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - L'Incontro Improviso: Sinfonia in D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2009, 06:04:23 PM
Development of the Classical orchestra -
All this talk on other threads (like HIP Beethoven Symphonies, for one) about performance practice got me curious to refresh my memory about size and constitution of the orchestra during the period in question (1750-1830 <>). So to start at the beginning, I looked up what our old friend Quantz had to say, since he wrote near the beginning of the period (early 1750's). What I found were a couple of anomalies from that era which changed over time as the orchestra itself and ideas about music evolved.

According to Quantz, a "nice sized" orchestra had between 8 & 10 violins. Not so many, eh? If there were 8 violins (divided half and half into firsts and seconds), then there would be 1 each of violas, cellos and basses. If there were 10 violins, then 2 each of the others. But here is where the oddity is: for that many strings (call it 16), there would be 3 or 4 each of flutes & oboes, along with 2 horns & 2 bassoons and a harpsichord to supply the necessary basso continuuo. By the standards that we are more familiar with (I'll get to that in a minute), this would have shifted the color of the sound quite heavily into the winds. I pondered this for a while and came to the conclusion that Quantz was a flutist, writing about flutes, and that he was the teacher of Frederick the Great, also a flutist and wind lover, and perhaps this alignment of instruments was peculiar to Northern Germany at the time, moreso than to Europe in general. Interested in other ideas on this subject, since the prevailing idea that I have gleaned elsewhere is that strings were always in the majority...  :-\

When Haydn began his tenure at Esterházy, his entire orchestra consisted of 20 players. Probably <> 14 strings and 6 winds, with himself playing continuuo. Since this was around 1761, and the private orchestra of one of the richest men in Europe, this was probably even a bit more than the norm. So when we hear the symphony #6, "Le Matin" played with an orchestra the same as plays "Drumroll" or "Surprise", it's probably just a bit beyond what Haydn envisioned. :)   Not making an argument for historical accuracy here, just sayin'.... ;) 

Mozart's early symphonies, from a very few years later than this, have written parts for 2 violins, 1 viola, 1 cello, 1 bass, no flutes, 2 oboes, 1 bassoon and 2 horns. The question lies in how many on a part? Well, the range of orchestra sizes back then was really pretty large. I let Dr. Neal Zaslaw do the research for me (Mozart's Symphonies), and he did a splendid job of it too. Just counting the 1760's for now, in places where Mozart's earliest symphonies were played for certain (London, The Hague, Amsterdam and Salzburg), we find 1st violins ranging from 3-6, 2nd violins from 3-4, violas from 1-6, cellos from 1-3, basses from 1-4, flutes from 0-2, oboes 2, bassoons 1-2 & horns 2-4. The high end numbers for all of these come from the 2 court orchestras, The Hague and Salzburg (!). Zaslaw continues in this way with all the orchestras he can find info on throughout Mozart's lifetime that he might have composed for. An interesting pattern emerges through time. Despite absolute numbers of instruments, when the ratio of string to wind is plotted, there is a steady proportion of 5.8 string players to 0.3 non-string players! And this holds true throughout the period....   Which brings me back to Quantz. The ratio there is approximately 2:1. ??? Well, maybe this is the exception that proves the rule. :)

Please feel free to cuss or discuss. I know well that there are those of you out there who know a lot more about this than I do. I would love to learn from you. And questions of balance and color are certainly welcome to be addressed, as they are germane to the topic. :)

8)




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Listening to:
Venice Baroque Orchestra; Carmignola - RV 331 Concerto in g for Violin 2nd mvmt - Largo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2009, 06:31:13 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2009, 06:04:23 PM
Development of the Classical orchestra -
All this talk on other threads (like HIP Beethoven Symphonies, for one) about performance practice got me curious to refresh my memory about size and constitution of the orchestra during the period in question (1750-1830 <>). So to start at the beginning, I looked up what our old friend Quantz had to say, since he wrote near the beginning of the period (early 1750's). What I found were a couple of anomalies from that era which changed over time as the orchestra itself and ideas about music evolved....................

Good evening Gurn - thanks for your detailed thread on the orchestra and its changes from this wonderful period that we both love!  ;D

But, not sure if I've posted the book below in this thread (maybe in the reading one?) - The Birth of the Orchestra - History of an Institution, 1650-1815 by John Spitzer & Neal Zaslaw (2004) by Oxford Press - I bought this 'paperback' book (and not cheap, so a local library checkout would be recommended) - but this is an absolutely superb tome (about 600 pages including appendices & index) that considers exactly the questions that you discussed, i.e. the origins & development of 'orchestras' from the dates indicated; there are numerous tables & listings of the various orchestras of the times w/ exact listings of the instruments used - the detail is definitive - now, this will not appeal to many, but if you are interested in the questions & issues raised by this post, then I can't imagine a book that would not answer virtually many of the questions raised.  Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/435177742_3fPr6-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2009, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 22, 2009, 06:31:13 PM
Good evening Gurn - thanks for your detailed thread on the orchestra and its changes from this wonderful period that we both love!  ;D

But, not sure if I've posted the book below in this thread (maybe in the reading one?) - The Birth of the Orchestra - History of an Institution, 1650-1815 by John Spitzer & Neal Zaslaw (2004) by Oxford Press - I bought this 'paperback' book (and not cheap, so a local library checkout would be recommended) - but this is an absolutely superb tome (about 600 pages including appendices & index) that considers exactly the questions that you discussed, i.e. the origins & development of 'orchestras' from the dates indicated; there are numerous tables & listings of the various orchestras of the times w/ exact listings of the instruments used - the detail is definitive - now, this will not appeal to many, but if you are interested in the questions & issues raised by this post, then I can't imagine a book that would not answer virtually many of the questions raised.  Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/435177742_3fPr6-M.jpg)

Ah, thanks Dave, that looks interesting. I have a nice book about orchestras, but surprisingly, it concentrates almost exclusively on the evolution of the instruments rather than their numbers. By the looks of that book, it rivals Zaslaw's Mozart book in size and probably detail too. I'll have to see what I can find, maybe Amazon has a used one. I got the Symphony book in England, cost a bloody fortune with shipping, but worth every farthing. :)

I suspect that the orchestras charting is a superset of where he started in this book. Does he carry over the ratio chart? If so, does it hold true generally? I thought that was a useful tidbit of information to have. Although orchestra size increased from 20 to 60 during the period, the ratio stayed the same.

Cheers, Dave,
8)

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Listening to:
Venice Baroque Orchestra; Carmignola - RV 177 Concerto in b for Violin 3rd mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 23, 2009, 04:30:40 AM
I see activity in the Corner!  ;D

Great post, Gurn.  I do think that smaller, more balanced forces like what you would have found in older times provide a much better sound, with more raw power and energy and clearer sonorities.  You bring up some interesting points here.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2009, 06:49:05 PM
By the looks of that book, it rivals Zaslaw's Mozart book in size and probably detail too.

With Professor Zaslaw himself as co-author, nonetheless!  Looks like a fascinatingly informative book, indeed.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: FideLeo on April 23, 2009, 07:23:07 AM
(http://www.oupcanada.com/documents/Image/Jackets/l/9780195166651.jpg)

This one would make a nice sibling album for the one cited above, covering a later development and focusing perhaps more on the technical details of how to interpret contemporary notation.  I don't have this book but have read individual papers from Dr. Clive Brown.  Sir Roger Norrington supplied the foreword!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2009, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: traverso on April 23, 2009, 07:23:07 AM
(http://www.oupcanada.com/documents/Image/Jackets/l/9780195166651.jpg)

This one would make a nice sibling album for the one cited above, covering a later development and focusing perhaps more on the technical details of how to interpret contemporary notation.  I don't have this book but have read individual papers from Dr. Clive Brown.  Sir Roger Norrington supplied the foreword!

Yes, that's another one I've been looking at for a while. Actually, this book, the one Dave recommended and the one that I already have (Peyser) are/were listed by Amazon as a "three-fer" special. One could get a good orchestral library started for <> $100!   :)

8)

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Listening to:
Collegium Aureum - K 248b_250 Serenade #7 in D "Haffner" 1st mvmt - Allegro maestoso - Allegro molto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2009, 05:52:46 PM
The chat on another thread about Piano Quintets put me in mind of this little series that I have been collecting for the last 6 months or so. Patience is paramount when collecting as released, so since it is just up to disk 3, it will be a while yet to achieve satisfaction. :D

The piano quintet as we usually think of it is composed of a string quartet (2 violins) and piano, except for Schubert's famous "Trout Quintet", right?  well, no, surprisingly enough, back at the cusp of the Classico-Romantic boundary (if you will concede such a thing), Schubert's "Trout" instruments were, in fact, the norm. Fortepiano, Violin, Viola, Cello and Baß. The first known quintet with these personnel was composed by Dussek <>1795, and the line extends up through the 1830's. The members of this group (The Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet) have found manuscripts so far of over 20 different composers. BTW, these are on Brilliant, and an example of works that they commissioned themselves rather than licensed. These are the 3 disks released so far:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/NFQ1.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/NFQ2.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/NFQ3.jpg)

The works are (alphabetically):
Cramer Op 79 in Bb
Dussek Op 41 in f
Hummel Op 87 in eb (yes, e flat minor, not major as usually written. Right there on the front page of the manuscript!)
Limmer Op 13 in d
Onslow Op 76 in G
Ries Op 74 in b
Schubert D 667 in A

Limmer? OK, fair enough, he was new to me, too. He was born in Vienna in 1808 and became a composer early on. Actually wrote an amazing amount of highly regarded (at the time) music, ranging from masses to chamber works. And I have to say, if you get this disk, you might agree that this is a hidden jewel, possibly the best work in the set so far.

Anyway, the playing is excellent, the recorded sound is good, and they are virtually giving it away (I have paid less than $5 new for each disk so far). For the people who haunt this Corner, I strongly recommend if you want to hear some new repertoire or some old favorites. :)

8)





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Listening to:
Shaham; Rouilly; Mork; Dangel; Reid; Jenny; Hefti - Beethoven Op 20 Septet in Eb 2nd mvmt - Adagio cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 24, 2009, 07:12:47 PM
Limmer's first initial: G.?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 24, 2009, 11:57:51 PM
Mozart also has a charming little quintet for piano & winds (oboe, clarinet, horn and bassoon), K. 452.  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2009, 08:38:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 24, 2009, 07:12:47 PM
Limmer's first initial: G.?

No, it's "S" actually. He looks rather dull and emaciated compared to his peers. Historically, men in that age went big for the chubby look to display their prosperity. The Limmer in question, S, rebelled against all that.... ;)

8)

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Listening to:
Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet - Cramer Op 79 Quintet in Bb for Piano & Strings 2nd mvmt - Adagio cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2009, 08:41:26 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on April 24, 2009, 11:57:51 PM
Mozart also has a charming little quintet for piano & winds (oboe, clarinet, horn and bassoon), K. 452.  ;)

True enough, although the instrumentation is way off base. In any case, I'll see your Wolfgang and raise you a pair of Ludwigs (Spohr & Beethoven) and you will end up with 3 pretty nice 5tets with piano and winds. Chamber music was pretty diverse in those days, eh?  :)

8)


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Listening to:
Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet - Cramer Op 79 Quintet in Bb for Piano & Strings 2nd mvmt - Adagio cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 25, 2009, 09:06:01 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2009, 08:41:26 AM
True enough, although the instrumentation is way off base. In any case, I'll see your Wolfgang and raise you a pair of Ludwigs (Spohr & Beethoven) and you will end up with 3 pretty nice 5tets with piano and winds. Chamber music was pretty diverse in those days, eh?  :)
Yes indeed!  Nice for the ears, notosmuch for me when I try to categorise it all on my music player!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2009, 09:10:41 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on April 25, 2009, 09:06:01 AM
Yes indeed!  Nice for the ears, notosmuch for me when I try to categorise it all on my music player!  ;D

Yeah, that's a problem. I have mixed feeling about it. I have solved the problem of "having music that I haven't heard" as described in the "Unopened CD's" thread by ripping everything, and then just double-clicking randomly in the "Local Media" list in WinAMP and letting it play whatever it wants to. It is my opinion that categorizing (for ME) is just too anal. :D

8)


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Listening to:
Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet - Dussek Op 41 Quintet in f for Fortepiano & Strings 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegretto ma espressivo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 25, 2009, 10:03:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2009, 09:10:41 AM
Yeah, that's a problem. I have mixed feeling about it. I have solved the problem of "having music that I haven't heard" as described in the "Unopened CD's" thread by ripping everything, and then just double-clicking randomly in the "Local Media" list in WinAMP and letting it play whatever it wants to. It is my opinion that categorizing (for ME) is just too anal. :D
You're probably right.  I get lost and confused in my own music player when I don't have everything in order, though! (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/wacko.gif)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2009, 10:10:35 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on April 25, 2009, 10:03:53 AM
You're probably right.  I get lost and confused in my own music player when I don't have everything in order, though! (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/wacko.gif)

Well, I only have 8 gigs on my MP3 player, so it is hard to get lost. But I have 220 gigs on my hard drive, and even though the file system keeps everything in perfect order, constantly choosing what to play can be an ordeal. I find myself listening to the same things all the time and ignoring other things that I really do like, but they just don't occur to me. This way, everything gets a chance. :)

8)

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Listening to:
Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet - Hummel Op 87 Quintet in eb for Fortepiano & Strings 4th mvmt - Allegro agitato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 27, 2009, 02:39:37 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2009, 10:10:35 AM
Well, I only have 8 gigs on my MP3 player, so it is hard to get lost. But I have 220 gigs on my hard drive, and even though the file system keeps everything in perfect order, constantly choosing what to play can be an ordeal. I find myself listening to the same things all the time and ignoring other things that I really do like, but they just don't occur to me. This way, everything gets a chance. :)
Speaking of which, when the great Gön does listen to music, what does he use?  Some top-of-the-line headcans, perhaps?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2009, 03:45:34 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on April 27, 2009, 02:39:37 PM
Speaking of which, when the great Gön does listen to music, what does he use?  Some top-of-the-line headcans, perhaps?

Well, they're pretty good. I can't stand things stuck in my ears, so I needed phones, but portable. So I got some Sennheiser PX200 over the ear folding phones. And I notice the price is half what I paid a year ago... >:(  Anyway, they have very nice sound, and fold up small for portability. Sweet! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 27, 2009, 06:27:10 PM
Well guys, I'm reporting tonight from a hotel room @ the Sheraton in Boston - I'm here on a short medical meeting which is quite hectic w/ activities, people to see, events to attend, etc. leaving little time to enjoy this great city!

Arrived on Saturday and had some 'time off' on Sunday, so was perusing what might be available to enjoy musically, and found a 'perfect fit' at least for me; that afternoon at the Boston Symphony Hall, the historic performance center for so many conductors of the past was the program below:

Haydn in London conducted by Sir Roger Norrington, and sponsored by the Handel & Haydn Society (http://www.handelandhaydn.org/calendar/concert_sched/concert_sched_08-09.htm#apr), which was established in Boston in 1815!  We showed up @ the box office early that afternoon & were able to get seats at orchestra level just to the right, but could see the performers well and Norrington's unique conducting and his wonderful facial expressions.

We were early enough to hear the pre-concert lecture by Michael Ruhing (http://www.handelandhaydn.org/experience/hip/hip_fellow.htm) who wrote the program notes, and is current president of the Haydn Society of North American; he was a delightful speaker and 'laid' the background to Solomon's invitation to Haydn to visit London and the performance practices of the period - especially important was his comments on 'how' concerts of those days were often a mixture of orchestral, chamber, vocal, etc. works, even w/ the symphonies broken between other performances; he also emphasized that the audience applauded after each movement (and even w/i movements!) - Norrington insisted on applauds after each movement, would turn, and give a special gesture to the audience - quite delightful, different, and wonderful -  :D

The entire program lasted just 2 'short' hours including an intermission; below are the performances w/ a guest soprano - Nathalie Paulin; also, this was an orchestra of just about 3 dozen players w/ the winds duplicated; instruments of the times were used, including 'valveless' horns & trumpets, wooden flutes & clarinets, and a fortepiano:

Symphony No. 99 - first 2 movements.
Cantata: Scena di Berenice w/ Paulin
Symphony No. 99 - last 2 movements.
Intermission
English Songs (music by Haydn; words by Anne Hunter, wife of Dr. John Hunter)
Adagio from an earlier Divertimento played w/ 6 instruments
English Songs (as above); Paulin w/ the fortepiano
Symphony No. 92, Oxford - all movements to end the concert!

This will likely be the HIGHLIGHT of my 'short medical' trip to Boston; first visit to this historic Symphony Hall, Haydn (one of my favorite composers, if not @ the top?), a period instrument 'small' orchestra (the 'winds' just zoomed out the the ensemble brightly & clearly), and Sir Roger Norrington - could not ask for a better surprise!  Dave  :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2009, 06:35:49 PM
Crikey, Dave! How outstanding was that!!! And what a lineup of music. I am very pleased for you. Oh, was Karl there? I've heard he never misses one of those... :D   I look forward to the DVD (OK if it isn't Blu-Ray... ;) ).

Thanks for sharing,
8)

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Listening to:
Andreas Staier, Daniel Sepec - Beethoven Op 23 Sonata #4 in a for Fortepiano & Violin 3rd mvmt - Allegro molto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 28, 2009, 05:02:35 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2009, 03:45:34 PM
Well, they're pretty good. I can't stand things stuck in my ears, so I needed phones, but portable. So I got some Sennheiser PX200 over the ear folding phones. And I notice the price is half what I paid a year ago... >:(  Anyway, they have very nice sound, and fold up small for portability. Sweet! :)

Looked those up at Amazon.  Seems like a good deal!  I like the design as well.  I've not heard anything bad about Sennheiser, they seem a very good brand; the earpieces from them that I have hold up well.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 29, 2009, 01:57:39 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 27, 2009, 06:27:10 PM
This will likely be the HIGHLIGHT of my 'short medical' trip to Boston; first visit to this historic Symphony Hall, Haydn (one of my favorite composers, if not @ the top?), a period instrument 'small' orchestra (the 'winds' just zoomed out the the ensemble brightly & clearly), and Sir Roger Norrington - could not ask for a better surprise!  Dave  :)

Dave, it seems a splendid concert indeed. How was the performance of the Scena di Berenice?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on April 29, 2009, 02:53:51 AM
About Sennheisers. I have the PX100 for portable duties. It's very similar to the PX200, but it's open, and I do think it's bass reproduction is more correct than the PX200 which seems a bit on the boosted side to me.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2009, 01:42:55 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 29, 2009, 01:57:39 AM
Dave, it seems a splendid concert indeed. How was the performance of the Scena di Berenice?

Hello Gabriel - just returned home from Boston - could have spent a few more days, and would have loved to have met Karl, if we had had more time; he likely knows more about the soprano in this performance since she has appeared a number of times w/ Roger Norrington there -  :)

Nathalie Paulin, soprano from Canada - her Website HERE (http://www.nathaliepaulin.com/new_site/index.html) - now keep in mind that I'm not really an 'opera guy' and had not heard of this singer before nor the piece performed, so my opinion is likely not worth 'two bits' -  ;D

But, she did sing beautifully, projected herself quite well into the auditorium, had a pleasant & lyric voice (even when hitting the highest notes which she did not seem to miss 'to my ears'); the program notes allowed one to 'follow along w/ ease'; she had an 'affectionate & infectious' kind of relationship w/ Norrington, so the two of them obviously were quite comfortable together and the 'period instrument orchestra' was a good match.  My 'better half', Susan, who is also a soprano and sang in college classical groups while at Brown University & University of Chicago (plus, a lot of singing since) was quite impressed w/ this gal.

Now, for the English songs, she sang just w/ the fortepiano performer, another delightful combination; her voice, as expected, was quite operatic in these songs - I would imagine that Dawn Upshaw, who seems to do this 'crossover' singing well (to my hearing) likely would have been my preference, but I really enjoy Dawn in all types of repertoire.

Not sure if any of this helps, but Paulin was quite impressive and the audience was pleased!  Dave  :D

P.S. Below a pic of 'how' Norrington looked during the performance; kind of an 'oriental' black garment!  :)

(http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2009/04/22/1240446439_3338/539w.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 29, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
Thanks, Dave. I do not know Nathalie Paulin at all, but I trust Norrington's choices. On the other hand, it is not usual to have Haydn songs sung in a concert. A great concert for the Haydn year 2009! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2009, 02:09:06 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 29, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
Thanks, Dave. I do not know Nathalie Paulin at all, but I trust Norrington's choices. On the other hand, it is not usual to have Haydn songs sung in a concert. A great concert for the Haydn year 2009! ;)

Yep, kind of a 'double celebration' for the Handel & Haydn Society - 200 yrs since Haydn's death, but also 150 yrs for Handel's demise - guess those 'combos' don't come up very often! Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 29, 2009, 06:13:58 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 29, 2009, 01:42:55 PM
P.S. Below a pic of 'how' Norrington looked during the performance; kind of an 'oriental' black garment!  :)

Just call him, "Sensei Norrington!"
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2009, 03:30:42 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 29, 2009, 01:42:55 PM
Hello Gabriel - just returned home from Boston - could have spent a few more days, and would have loved to have met Karl, if we had had more time . . . .

Oh, we certainly ought to have got together, Dave!

Quote from: SonicManP.S. Below a pic of 'how' Norrington looked during the performance; kind of an 'oriental' black garment!

Go on! That's a still from Karate Kid III!  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 30, 2009, 08:51:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 30, 2009, 03:30:42 AM
Oh, we certainly ought to have got together, Dave!

Karl - Susan & I would like to return to Boston soon!  So, will certainly keep a meeting in mind -  :D

QuoteGo on! That's a still from Karate Kid III!  8)

Well, Sir Roger did have a lot of 'body gestures' while conducting (used only his hands; no baton) but I can't recall any karate motions!  ;) ;D

I was curious about his age and just checked - turned 75 y/o last month!  Hard to believe -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 30, 2009, 09:02:54 AM
Krommer, Franz (1759-1831) - String Quartets w/ the Marcolini Quartett on period instruments (violins, c. 1750 & c. 1813; viola, after Bergonzi, Cremona, 1739; cello, after Stradavari, 1721).

Franz K. has already been discussed numerous times in this thread, but I just received the disc below, and now listening for a second time.  The works were written between 1800-1820, but really are in a 'transitional style' between Haydn & Beethoven.  These works are really worth exploring, well composed and performed.  In fact, Krommer's string pieces may have been more popular than the 'early' ones of Beethoven - at least if the anecdote (from the opening liner notes) in quotes below can be believed:

Quote...concerning an encounter between Ludwig van Beethoven and Franz Krommer....both composers were present at a concert in Count Lichnowsky's palace in Vienna where string quartets by each of them were played.  In the middle of the performance, Beethoven began to lambaste Krommer's successful works, and his conduct was so unbecoming that the count found it necessary to reprimand him.


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/524943864_YzWoR-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 30, 2009, 02:07:21 PM
I haven't bought this CD yet, Dave, but I have it in my cart. I guess I will order soon and make further comments once I receive it, as I anticipated some time ago.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 02, 2009, 04:05:47 PM
Clementi, Muzio (1752-1832) - Piano Sonatas, Vol. 3 w/ Howard Shelley - Clementi has been already discussed in this thread earlier; this is the newest release of Shelley's perusal of these piano sonatas, not sure how many more will be released; Hyperion is packaging these as 2-CDs in a 'single' thin jewel box at a bargain price; as w/ the other two volumes, these continue in the same superb performances - now I've also been buying fortepiano interpretations of these works w/  Costantino Mastroprimiano on the Brilliant label - have 6 discs each from the different performers - love them both!   ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/524943859_XaG3f-S.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C7yg0-NtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2009, 04:51:31 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 02, 2009, 04:05:47 PM
Clementi, Muzio (1752-1832) - Piano Sonatas, Vol. 3 w/ Howard Shelley - Clementi has been already discussed in this thread earlier; this is the newest release of Shelley's perusal of these piano sonatas, not sure how many more will be released; Hyperion is packaging these as 2-CDs in a 'single' thin jewel box at a bargain price; as w/ the other two volumes, these continue in the same superb performances - now I've also been buying fortepiano interpretations of these works w/  Costantino Mastroprimiano on the Brilliant label - have 6 discs each from the different performers - love them both!   ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/524943859_XaG3f-S.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C7yg0-NtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yes, you've already tempted me with the Shelley... :D   I'm still working on the Mastroprimiano right now, have the first 2 boxes. Out of curiosity, do they replicate the same works pretty much? Or did Shelley start at the end and work his way backwards?  Despite having a dozen or more Clementi disks, there are still quite a few sonatas that I don't have at all, and others that I have 3 or more times. BTW, do you (or does anyone) have a disk of his etudes (that's what they are, although not called anything in particular) Gradus ad Parnassum(Op 44)? I have a disk of the first 6 suites played by Danielle Laval, and they are really quite interesting. Of course, after his death, his piano method lived on, and these are at the heart of it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Consortium Classicum - Boccherini - Quartet for clarinet, flute, horn & bassoon in B major, G. 263/3 (arranged by Othon Van den Broek): No. 1, Allegro non tanto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 02, 2009, 05:28:35 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2009, 04:51:31 PM
Yes, you've already tempted me with the Shelley... :D   I'm still working on the Mastroprimiano right now, have the first 2 boxes. Out of curiosity, do they replicate the same works pretty much? Or did Shelley start at the end and work his way backwards?..................

Good evening Gurn - Shelley seems to be recording these works in pretty much the order of their Opus numbers, i.e. Vol. 1 = Op. 1, 2, 7, & 8; Vol. 2 = Opp. 9-12; Vol. 3 = Op. 13, 20, 23, & 24; OTOH, Mastroprimiano is mixing them up (but of course all will eventually overlap) - his Vol. 1 (3-CDs) include works from Op. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 24, & 41; Vol. 2 is different, e.g. disc 1 is mostly six sonatas dedicated to Peter Beckford, and the others are not quite the same as the Shelley numbering - I guess that your choice is the desire to have the 'modern' piano vs. the fortepiano.

Concerning the Etudes - cannot provide an answer - did a little searching w/o much success - seem to be 'later' works?  I have some of Clementi's Symphonies, and know that he wrote chamber works, but own none of these compositions, so would be interested in the comments from all about other offerings?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 02, 2009, 05:38:25 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2009, 04:51:31 PM
BTW, do you (or does anyone) have a disk of his etudes (that's what they are, although not called anything in particular) Gradus ad Parnassum(Op 44)? I have a disk of the first 6 suites played by Danielle Laval, and they are really quite interesting. Of course, after his death, his piano method lived on, and these are at the heart of it. :)

Just yesterday I recommended (on the thread "What are you listening?") a very nice and complete version (4 Cds) of the Gradus ad Parnassum, recorded on the label Arts. Its sound is gorgeous and the interpretation (by several young Italian pianists) is excellent or at least very good.

Below is included the image of another disc (by John Khouri) also strongly recommended.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2009, 05:39:41 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 02, 2009, 05:28:35 PM
Good evening Gurn - Shelley seems to be recording these works in pretty much the order of their Opus numbers, i.e. Vol. 1 = Op. 1, 2, 7, & 8; Vol. 2 = Opp. 9-12; Vol. 3 = Op. 13, 20, 23, & 24; OTOH, Mastroprimiano is mixing them up (but of course all will eventually overlap) - his Vol. 1 (3-CDs) include works from Op. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 24, & 41; Vol. 2 is different, e.g. disc 1 is mostly six sonatas dedicated to Peter Beckford, and the others are not quite the same as the Shelley numbering - I guess that your choice is the desire to have the 'modern' piano vs. the fortepiano.

Concerning the Etudes - cannot provide an answer - did a little searching w/o much success - seem to be 'later' works?  I have some of Clementi's Symphonies, and know that he wrote chamber works, but own none of these compositions, so would be interested in the comments from all about other offerings?  Dave  :)

Well, I suppose we know what MY preference is :D  Interesting that Shelley is recording them in order, others who have attempted this haven't done that, I suppose because they wanted to get off to a bang-up start with some of those later works.

Well, later, but not too much so. Op 44 falls in there pretty much just past midway. But he did have a LOT of students by then (1805-10), so he must have needed something to illustrate his methods by. The liner notes say that some of the movements in each suite (these are the first 6 suites) are sonata movements, possibly ones that never found a home in a finished work.  My curiosity came about because other than the recording that I lucked into, I have never seen another, nor even another copy of this one. They play out as 6 movement suites that seem to go well together, almost like finished pieces. One thing I know, if I was a piano student, these would be a ferocious way to find my feet. :D

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Consortium Classicum - Boccherini - Quartet for clarinet, flute, horn & bassoon in E flat major, G. 263/1 (arranged by Othon Van den Broek): No. 3, Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2009, 05:44:46 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 02, 2009, 05:38:25 PM
Just yesterday I recommended (on the thread "What are you listening?") a very nice and complete version (4 Cds) of the Gradus ad Parnassum, recorded on the label Arts. Its sound is gorgeous and the interpretation (by several young Italian pianists) is excellent or at least very good.

Below is included the image of another disc (by John Khouri) also strongly recommended.



Oh, hot damn! Thanks for that, Antoine! What synchronicity, since I have never mentioned these, nor seen them mentioned either! I really need to pick that up.

As for the the Khouri disks, absolutely a nice set, especially if you are a fan of the fortepiano. Very nice playing, great music too. But if you live for the sound of the modern grand piano, well, tough luck. :D  (perfect for me, though ;) )

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Consortium Classicum - Boccherini - Quartet for clarinet, flute, horn & bassoon in F major, G. 262/2 (arranged by Othon Van den Broek): No. 2, Larghetto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 02, 2009, 05:51:39 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2009, 05:44:46 PM
Oh, hot damn! Thanks for that, Antoine! What synchronicity, since I have never mentioned these, nor seen them mentioned either! I really need to pick that up.


The Spirit blows where it will, my friend.   :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 02, 2009, 11:58:18 PM
I have the 4 CDs of the complete Gradus ad Parnassum played by Laval, and it is very good indeed. You should get a complete set, Gurn: it is a fundamental work of classical piano literature.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 03, 2009, 12:06:24 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 02, 2009, 11:58:18 PM
I have the 4 CDs of the complete Gradus ad Parnassum played by Laval, and it is very good indeed. You should get a complete set, Gurn: it is a fundamental work of classical piano literature.

Are the recordings mentioned (Laval and the set on Arts) on fortepiano?
Because after having heard Clementi on Staier's Broadwood and on Mastroprimiano's copy after Dulcken, that's mandatory IMO! :o  :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 03, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
Laval plays on modern piano, Que. (And considering the artists in the Arts recording, it should be modern piano too).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 03, 2009, 12:15:31 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 03, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
Laval plays on modern piano, Que. (And considering the artists in the Arts recording, it should be modern piano too).

:'(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 03, 2009, 03:48:46 AM
Quote from: Que on May 03, 2009, 12:15:31 AM
:'(

Yes, the Arts set is played on modern piano, Que, but IMO it is recorded in a totally lovely way and, you know, I am a HIP dude too.

Here is possible to get some idea about the set:

http://artsmusic.de/templates/tyReleasesD.php?id=667&label=blue%20line&topic=arts-releases-detail
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 03, 2009, 03:54:42 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 03, 2009, 03:48:46 AM
Yes, the Arts set is played on modern piano, Que, but IMO it is recorded in a totally lovely way and, you know, I am a HIP dude too.

Here is possible to get some idea about the set:

http://artsmusic.de/templates/tyReleasesD.php?id=667&label=blue%20line&topic=arts-releases-detail



Thanks, the music sounds very much worthwhile and significant.  :)
Performances sound excellent too, but imagine this by Andreas Staier! :o Would be just the thing for him, or maybe Immerseel, Brautigam or Komen?  ::)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 03, 2009, 05:03:39 AM
Quote from: Que on May 03, 2009, 03:54:42 AM

Thanks, the music sounds very much worthwhile and significant.  :)
Performances sound excellent too, but imagine this by Andreas Staier! :o Would be just the thing for him, or maybe Immerseel, Brautigam or Komen?  ::)

Q

Also sometimes my imagination has run wild, Que.

When I listened to András Schiff playing on the Beethoven's Broadwood piano –before his ongoing set-, I imagined a complete set by him on period instruments!

I thought to write a letter suggesting the idea. But I didn't do it considering his some "militant" position against the HIP movement and because I'm not (yet) totally crazy.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2009, 06:16:15 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 02, 2009, 11:58:18 PM
I have the 4 CDs of the complete Gradus ad Parnassum played by Laval, and it is very good indeed. You should get a complete set, Gurn: it is a fundamental work of classical piano literature.

Thanks, Gabriel. You know, I didn't even know that she did 4 disks, the disk I have (the original from 1981) doesn't say "volume 1", perhaps at the time they weren't sure if she would do them all. In any case, I really do enjoy it, and since I knew nothing about it I have never brought it up... :-\

Quote from: Que on May 03, 2009, 12:06:24 AM
Are the recordings mentioned (Laval and the set on Arts) on fortepiano?
Because after having heard Clementi on Staier's Broadwood and on Mastroprimiano's copy after Dulcken, that's mandatory IMO! :o  :)

Q

Don't you just hate that? ;D  To me, any composer before 1835 should be played on a pianoforte, that's all there is to it. I really need to get that Staier disk too; I have Schiff playing on Beethoven's own Broadwood, and I rather enjoy it a lot more than his Beethoven on modern piano.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 03, 2009, 05:03:39 AM
Also sometimes my imagination has run wild, Que.

When I listened to András Schiff playing on the Beethoven's Broadwood piano –before his ongoing set-, I imagined a complete set by him on period instruments!

I thought to write a letter suggesting the idea. But I didn't do it considering his some "militant" position against the HIP movement and because I'm not (yet) totally crazy.  ;D


Me too, Antoine. That would be awesome. I also have Schiff playing (with his wife) on Mozart's own instruments from the Mozarteum, which is a very enjoyable disk. Not all modern pianists can adapt to the particular technique required on the fortepiano, but Schiff does a great job of it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Northern Sinfonia \ Hickox - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

I have heard that Hickox' 4th movement here is excellent, can't wait to hear it for the first time!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on May 03, 2009, 09:29:57 PM
Mozart sure used alot of themes. What a wacko!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on May 03, 2009, 09:35:30 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 09:56:32 AM
Well, I know you are a chamber fan (like me!) but you would likely be interested in Paisiello's piano concerti. The #4 in g minor is particularly good (you can find it on a Naxos disk). Not all of the opera composers were good at purley instrumental music, but he was one who was. :)

8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/xmrcXKuY-gM
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on May 04, 2009, 05:11:14 AM
OK.....last night I was at a chamber music concert, and I heard the most wonderful Trio for violin, viola and cello by Boccherini!  :)  It was in D major, but there wasn't any other description as to opus number.  And I think Boccherini wrote more than 1 or 2 in D major.

The three movement structure was as follows:

Allegro giusto
Andantino
Allegro Assai


I really have to get this into my collection!  Well, I can always just buy all the string trios.  :D

Dvorak's Piano Quintet in A major was supposed to be the feature, highlight work last night at this concert.  And yes, it was great but the Boccherini D major trio stole my heart!  :)

Aha!! It's the G.98, Op. 14/4 D major Trio. What an awesome piece!!!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2009, 05:47:08 AM
Well, Ray, there aren't as many possibilities. Here they are:

G 80: String Trio Op. 1 No. 4 in D major
G 87: String Trio Op. 4 No. 5 in D major
G 98: String Trio Op. 14 No. 4 in D major
G 104: String Trio Op. 34 No. 4 in D major
G 111: String Trio Op. 47 No. 5 in D major
G 113: String Trio Op. 54 No. 1 in D major
G 122: String Trio Op. 3 No. 4 in D major
G 123: String Trio Op. 3 No. 5 in D major
G 126: String Trio Op. 7 No. 2 in D major
G 131: String Trio Op. 28 No. 1 in D major

The ones that are bolded are stronger possibilities, not least because they have been recorded, and so it is sure they are available. Anyway, I'll check tempi tonight when I get home and let you know if I can narrow it down...  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 04, 2009, 09:09:46 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 04, 2009, 05:11:14 AM
....The three movement structure was as follows:

Allegro giusto
Andantino
Allegro Assai


Aha!! It's the G.98, Op. 14/4 D major Trio. What an awesome piece!!!

Ray - believe that you got it right!  The movement descriptions matches the number you have given; if not already done, checkout the excellent Boccherini Catalog HERE (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/boclchb3.html)!

Not sure if this set is available or can be downloaded, but I have the Op. 14 String Trios w/ Trio Miro; believe all that I have of his 'trio output' which was substantial according to the catolog mentioned - any other recommendations?  Dave  :D

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QcSi7k_AvSc/SdA4jOBKB2I/AAAAAAAAKJs/Nb_SaVbJFN4/s400/Boccherini_trios+%5BDISCOS%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on May 04, 2009, 09:16:08 AM
Another thing I learned at last night's concert.  I knew he was extremely proficient with the cello, but Boccherini was such a virtuoso with the cello, that he could play violin passages on his cello.....in the same pitch as a violin!  :o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2009, 09:22:37 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 04, 2009, 09:16:08 AM
Another thing I learned at last night's concert.  I knew he was extremely proficient with the cello, but Boccherini was such a virtuoso with the cello, that he could play violin passages on his cello.....in the same pitch as a violin!  :o

Yes, one of the things he was famous for. And not just passages, he could play whole violin concertos at pitch on the cello. Not being a cello player, I can only say that if that is as impressively difficult as it sounds to be, I would have loved to hear it! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on May 04, 2009, 09:39:17 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2009, 09:22:37 AM
Yes, one of the things he was famous for. And not just passages, he could play whole violin concertos at pitch on the cello. Not being a cello player, I can only say that if that is as impressively difficult as it sounds to be, I would have loved to hear it! :)

8)

Oh yah?!  Well M could do that on the double-bass blind folded!  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 04, 2009, 04:54:24 PM
Well, another contribution to this traditional series of Gurn's Classical Corner.

A recommended list of works: Cherubini (1760-1842).


The most impressive thing is that this list includes most of the Cherubini works recorded (an important omission, alas, is the string quintet, but as I haven't listened to it yet, I will not include it in the list). In my opinion, Beethoven was right when saying that Cherubini was the greatest composer of his time, excluding himself. His technical command is impressive, and his counterpoint beautifully natural (for example, he was capable to write stile antico with ease, while Beethoven had to struggle to assimilate "ancient" writing in the Credo of the Missa Solemnis). His vocal lines are transparent and well crafted, and it was not an obstacle for expressing some of the most turbulent music of the classical era in Médée, the most noble anxiety in Les Abencérages, or the sublime mixture of the popular and the academic in Les deux journées. A solid, all-rounded composer.

Some days ago I heard live the introduction to the third act of Médée. I was overwhelmed: it is one of those cases in which recordings are really, really far from the effect of the direct perception of the work.

In my opinion, he's waiting in the 21st century the chance that Haydn had in the 20th. But it will be more difficult, for Cherubini is eminently a vocal composer: religious music and operas in French are not precisely the kind of works to be played as frequently as piano sonatas or symphonies. And yet, his symphony and the six string quartets are outstanding works: not just because of the remarkable beauty of the music, but also because his view is in many points different from the Viennese composers whose style is so "natural" to us.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2009, 05:12:14 PM
Thanks for that list, Gabriel. And as you noted, Beethoven turned me on to Cherubini, after I read his statement in a biography.

I have all the instrumental music that you've listed here, and I have to agree, it is all first rate music and a must-have for anyone who is inclined to get away from the routine (no matter how great the routine may be). I can add only a couple of works to your list:

Capriccio ou Etude for Pianoforte  1789 - a 4 part (movement?) solo piano work from the time of his student days in Vienna. Actually, it is eye-opening, since the 1789 date seems like it can't be right when you hear the music (but it is!). I have Mario Patuzzi playing it, don't know if there is anyone else (but would love it on a Walter!).

I also have 1 Etude for Horn & Strings, which, since it is marked "#2", leads one to believe there must be others. It is also very interesting.

8)




----------------
Listening to: Love / Derwinger - Danzi - Quintet in D for piano, flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon/1: Larghetto - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on May 05, 2009, 09:48:28 PM
I admit, I didn't even consider Cherubini until I, too, read of Beethoven's high regard of the man's music.

For the Requiem in C Minor try the recording by Spering and Das Neue Orchester - he really lights a fire under it!  Unfortunately there are no exceptional recordings for the D Minor Requiem, which is a shame because it's a masterpiece!

Cherubini's six string quartets have been recorded on time-appropriate instruments by Hausmusik.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 06, 2009, 04:50:37 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2009, 05:12:14 PM
Thanks for that list, Gabriel. And as you noted, Beethoven turned me on to Cherubini, after I read his statement in a biography.

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on May 05, 2009, 09:48:28 PM
I admit, I didn't even consider Cherubini until I, too, read of Beethoven's high regard of the man's music.

I guess it is the case with most people, myself included. It is a pity that his music is seldom performed and not very often recorded. Anyway, Riccardo Muti must be really thanked for his remarkable exploration on the sacred works of Cherubini; I hope that EMI will be clever enough to release the excellent Mass in C major to continue their series, because the only recording available suffers quite a lot by the sound quality and the soloists. (Muti also recorded Lodoïska, Cherubini's first important opera, but I think that a sharper approach would benefit the score).

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2009, 05:12:14 PM
Capriccio ou Etude for Pianoforte  1789 - a 4 part (movement?) solo piano work from the time of his student days in Vienna. Actually, it is eye-opening, since the 1789 date seems like it can't be right when you hear the music (but it is!). I have Mario Patuzzi playing it, don't know if there is anyone else (but would love it on a Walter!).

I also have 1 Etude for Horn & Strings, which, since it is marked "#2", leads one to believe there must be others. It is also very interesting.

Thanks for this advice, Gurn. I guess I saw the Capriccio once in a CD, but I haven't bought it. And it is great to have an outstanding piano work by his, for his piano sonatas are early compositions that do not show the genius that was creating them. As for the Étude, I don't know it (but I'm almost sure I've seen it in at least a couple of CDs).

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on May 05, 2009, 09:48:28 PM
Unfortunately there are no exceptional recordings for the D Minor Requiem, which is a shame because it's a masterpiece!

There is a very good recording by Igor Markevitch, but it already sounds a bit old. I would really like to know what would our HIP champions be able to do with this powerful work.

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on May 05, 2009, 09:48:28 PM
Cherubini's six string quartets have been recorded on time-appropriate instruments by Hausmusik.

Do not forget the Melos recording, originally for DG, that has recently been re-released by Brilliant. At full-price, those performances are a bargain. At Brilliant price, what to say!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 06, 2009, 05:31:38 AM
I transpose a message I've just written in another thread, concerning - naturally - a classical composer.

Quote from: traverso on May 05, 2009, 11:21:42 PM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/88/455788.jpg)

It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso. It's the only CD I own of Brunetti's music, and I would like to know more of it before trying to describe the style of the composer. But specifically about these few string quartets I can say that it is some of the most intriguing chamber music of the classical period. Perhaps it is the use of listening to the Viennese composers of the time, but even compared with Boccherini's works these are very special; I would even say that they are very strange. Their emotional approach is a light one, but the music in itself is quite twisted: very strange textures, unexpected modulations, irregular subjects, and lots of other surprises.

If I had to describe these works, I'd say they are like a piranha. Their size is deceiving. And when gathered in groups, they can create a very powerful force. According to Wikipedia, he wrote a considerable amount of chamber music (44 string quartets, 66 string quintets, and so on). If most of his music had at least the level presented by this CD, we would be in front of a very sadly forgotten composer; and considering that Brunetti was active in Spain at the same time Boccherini was, they both could offer a most distinguished counterpoint to the Haydn-Mozart Austrian chamber music writing of this period.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 06, 2009, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 04, 2009, 04:54:24 PM
A recommended list of works: Cherubini (1760-1842).


  • The six string quartets: Eb, C, Dm, E, F, Am
  • Requiem in C minor
  • Requiem in D minor

The most impressive thing is that this list includes most of the Cherubini works recorded

Gabriel - thanks for the listing of Cherubini's works - only have the works above from your list - may need some more!   ;D

In the String Quartets, own the CPO offering of 3-CDs w/ Hausmusik London - enjoy them, but have no 'comparison' comments w/ others -  :-\

Love Requiem Masses - have Muti in the C minor & Markevich in the D minor (an older recording) - seems like I have much to explore!

Quote from: Gabriel on May 06, 2009, 05:31:38 AM
I transpose a message I've just written in another thread, concerning - naturally - a classical composer.

It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso.  Re:  Gaetano Brunetti

Thanks again for the comments on this composer, unknown to me - but, as you may know, I'm a BIG Boccherini fan, so will put these works of Brunetti on my 'to buy' list - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on May 06, 2009, 04:22:14 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 06, 2009, 04:50:37 AM
There is a very good recording by Igor Markevitch, but it already sounds a bit old. I would really like to know what would our HIP champions be able to do with this powerful work.

That's the one I have as well.  Not sure if I'd say this is a particularly inspired reading, but the music sure is amazing!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on May 07, 2009, 01:08:30 PM
By the way, happy Symphony No. 9 Day to everyone here in Gurn's Classical Corner!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: FideLeo on May 12, 2009, 02:49:30 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 06, 2009, 05:31:38 AM
It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso. It's the only CD I own of Brunetti's music, and I would like to know more of it before trying to describe the style of the composer. But specifically about these few string quartets I can say that it is some of the most intriguing chamber music of the classical period. Perhaps it is the use of listening to the Viennese composers of the time, but even compared with Boccherini's works these are very special; I would even say that they are very strange. Their emotional approach is a light one, but the music in itself is quite twisted: very strange textures, unexpected modulations, irregular subjects, and lots of other surprises.

Thank you for a long and perceptive post - I agree with most of what you say and will only observe that the Schuppanzigh Qt is quite good at re-discovering forgotten gems and at presenting them as something truly remarkable.  Hausmusik, on the other hand, doesn't seem to possess the same knack for me.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2009, 07:43:41 AM
Pleyel, Ignaz Joseph (1757-1831) - Clarinet Concertos 1 & 2 w/ Dieter Klocker on CPO.  In addition to being a student of Haydn, musical publisher, & piano maker, he was one of the most popular composers in Europe in the early 19th century and wrote a large number of varied works. 

Not sure that we've discussed Pleyel in this thread in depth, but I just received the disc below w/ the fabulous Klocker on the clarinet - he also wrote the superb liner notes in the CPO booklet.  Gurn started a thread on Pleyel in the old forum (which is linked on the first page of this current one); he quoted a short but excellent bio written by Allan Bradley, which can be read HERE (http://www.classicsonline.com/composerbio/Ignaz_Joseph_Pleyel/#), for those interested.

I have just 4 other discs of music from this composer:

Symphonies w/ Bamert & London Mozart Players on Chandos (9525)
Symphonies w/ Grodd & Capella Istropolitana on Naxos (8.554696)
Piano Trios w/ Trio Joachim on Dynamic (2017)
String Quartets, Op. 1, Nos. 1-3 w/ Enso Quartet on Naxos (8.557496)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/534313154_cf2nb-M.jpg)  (http://www.pleyel.at/pleyel/fotos/pleyellogo.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on May 12, 2009, 07:52:41 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 08, 2009, 02:15:22 PM
I feel quite motivated today, because I bought the new Boccherini CD recorded by Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante for Virgin Classics. I have the two previous releases and they are nothing less than extraordinary. I hope this one (which I have not listened to yet) will keep on the same level. They play one trio (D major, op. 14/4, G. 98), one quartet (C minor, op. 41/1, G. 214), one quintet (C minor, op. 45/1, G. 355) and one sextet (F minor, op. 23/4, G. 457). Quite a proliferation of minor-key works! (Unfortunately my headphones collapsed yesterday and today I didn't have time for buying a replacement, so any comment will have to wait at least until tomorrow).

How do you enjoy this CD, Gabriel.  Upon first listen it was fantastic!  I partilarly enjoyed the Quintet and Trio.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 12, 2009, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 12, 2009, 07:52:41 AM
How do you enjoy this CD, Gabriel.  Upon first listen it was fantastic!  I partilarly enjoyed the Quintet and Trio.  :)

Well, I guess I never wrote the further comments I suggested! ;D

My impression on this CD improves after every listening. It is played with delicacy, wit and sense of balance. I would be very (but thankfully) surprised if somebody could play these works better than Biondi and Europa Galante.

I would say that the star of the set is the Quintet op. 45/1 that strategically opens the CD. A true masterpiece that, to my ears, shows the most Italian side of Boccherini.

On the other works there are many features to be remarked. On the Sextet op. 23/4, the great difference in character with the Quintet that I just described. The long introductory Allegro moderato is outstanding because Boccherini makes every possible effort to diminish any contrast between the subjects (v. gr., the appearance of a major sentence in the B subject is exceptionally soft and timid) as well as between the sections (v. gr., there is a sort of fusion between the codetta of the B subject and the repetition of the A subject). This kind of dark approach is repeated in the third movement, Grave assai, with its sinuous lines that form almost an introduction to the exceptionally folk-like fourth movement. The Quartet op. 41/1 has the magnificent Andante flebile as its center, a simple yet impeccably written movement. Finally, about the Trio op. 14/4, I'm particularly fond of the Andantino, that according to the booklet is played sempre piano by the viola and the cello. The effect obtained by Boccherini is sensational: as it doesn't change this very soft playing, what he does during the four minutes is to gather energy for a possible outburst that never comes (it does with the final movement, but that is a different story).

I'm sorry if I have been inaccurate in some descriptions, but it is already 2:30 AM in France and this can have some consequences on musical explorations. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on May 12, 2009, 05:25:32 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 12, 2009, 04:35:04 PM
Well, I guess I never wrote the further comments I suggested! ;D

My impression on this CD improves after every listening. It is played with delicacy, wit and sense of balance. I would be very (but thankfully) surprised if somebody could play these works better than Biondi and Europa Galante.

I would say that the star of the set is the Quintet op. 45/1 that strategically opens the CD. A true masterpiece that, to my ears, shows the most Italian side of Boccherini.

  • The Adagio non tanto is remarkable in its natural but (at first) unexpected harmonic progressions and in the contrasts in intensity provided by the second subject.
  • The second movement, Allegro assai, is a compact sonata form movement that provides the most effective contrast between the Vivaldian (I can't put it better in other words) first subject and the somewhat incoherent (this is not pejorative, just descriptive) second one. The development is very beautiful, with no great surprises excepting a strange harmonic leap before the short transition to the recapitulation (around 3:25-3:27); this last one is quite short but keeps the surprise of changing to minor mode the second subject before the coda (what is quite natural as Boccherini wanted to end the movement in minor mode).
  • The Tempo di minuetto is not very eloquent, but it shows the hidden advantages of a A-B-A' structure: when listening to the minuet (A), it seems that it doesn't keep any surprise; then the trio (B) repeats a 3-note figure that answers quite violently to the first sentence; of course, the minuet (A') comes back... to show that in its first subject there are two echoes of the 3-note subject that was first clearly shown in the trio, one in the bass section of the first subject (not very clear), and then as a response (very clear) with the second note being higher than the other two.
  • Finally, the concluding Presto is a Boccherinian Sturm und Drang. Quick alternations between major and minor modes, between different intensities, it hides a formidable inner tension. Tremolandi play a substantial role, even in the short development (if I am listening correctly, it is a very short rondo-sonata form, with inverted subjects in the recapitulation).

On the other works there are many features to be remarked. On the Sextet op. 23/4, the great difference in character with the Quintet that I just described. The long introductory Allegro moderato is outstanding because Boccherini makes every possible effort to diminish any contrast between the subjects (v. gr., the appearance of a major sentence in the B subject is exceptionally soft and timid) as well as between the sections (v. gr., there is a sort of fusion between the codetta of the B subject and the repetition of the A subject). This kind of dark approach is repeated in the third movement, Grave assai, with its sinuous lines that form almost an introduction to the exceptionally folk-like fourth movement. The Quartet op. 41/1 has the magnificent Andante flebile as its center, a simple yet impeccably written movement. Finally, about the Trio op. 14/4, I'm particularly fond of the Andantino, that according to the booklet is played sempre piano by the viola and the cello. The effect obtained by Boccherini is sensational: as it doesn't change this very soft playing, what he does during the four minutes is to gather energy for a possible outburst that never comes (it does with the final movement, but that is a different story).

I'm sorry if I have been inaccurate in some descriptions, but it is already 2:30 AM in France and this can have some consequences on musical explorations. ;)

Thank you for the thorough feedback, Gabriel!  :)  The initial reason I got this disc was to get that Trio in D major, and because of that spectacular Andantino, which blew me away when I heard it in the concert I recently attended.  Definitely look forward to several repeat listens in the very near future.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2009, 05:52:11 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 12, 2009, 07:43:41 AM
Pleyel, Ignaz Joseph (1757-1831) - Clarinet Concertos 1 & 2 w/ Dieter Klocker on CPO.  In addition to being a student of Haydn, musical publisher, & piano maker, he was one of the most popular composers in Europe in the early 19th century and wrote a large number of varied works. 

Not sure that we've discussed Pleyel in this thread in depth, but I just received the disc below w/ the fabulous Klocker on the clarinet - he also wrote the superb liner notes in the CPO booklet.  Gurn started a thread on Pleyel in the old forum (which is linked on the first page of this current one); he quoted a short but excellent bio written by Allan Bradley, which can be read HERE (http://www.classicsonline.com/composerbio/Ignaz_Joseph_Pleyel/#), for those interested.

I have just 4 other discs of music from this composer:

Symphonies w/ Bamert & London Mozart Players on Chandos (9525)
Symphonies w/ Grodd & Capella Istropolitana on Naxos (8.554696)
Piano Trios w/ Trio Joachim on Dynamic (2017)
String Quartets, Op. 1, Nos. 1-3 w/ Enso Quartet on Naxos (8.557496)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/534313154_cf2nb-M.jpg)  (http://www.pleyel.at/pleyel/fotos/pleyellogo.jpg)

Dave,
Thanks for the reminder about Pleyel. I had only listened to his piano sonatas recently, and now I can go back to the piano trios and string quartets too. :D   

As a student of Haydn, the expectations on Pleyel are pretty high, and he does a good job satisfying them, at least up to a degree. It is a challenging job trying to match the Master! In any case, as we are coming to expect, the music I have by him seems to be totally different from yours (and this is a good thing in terms of presenting variety. ;)

Here are some good ones:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pie4ju5qL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-BbKn9EwL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/52/521830.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/214T3669HHL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

I also have the other Hungaroton disk, Vol 2 with the violin concertos, and the clarinet concertos, the Chandos symphonies by Bamert et al, and finally, a good mix of sinfonias concertantes, which are on disks with contemporary composers. Overall, I have found Pleyel to be a sound and well-structured craftsman who provides many hours of listening enjoyment. And if he's no Haydn, well, not very many are. :)

8)





----------------
Listening to:
Prague Chamber Orchestra / MacKerras - K 543 Symphony #39 in Eb 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegrettto - Trio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2009, 05:55:54 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 12, 2009, 05:25:32 PM
Thank you for the thorough feedback, Gabriel!  :)  The initial reason I got this disc was to get that Trio in D major, and because of that spectacular Andantino, which blew me away when I heard it in the concert I recently attended.  Definitely look forward to several repeat listens in the very near future.  :)

OK, well I guess I can't put it off any longer. I've put that Europa Galante disk in the shopping basket. :)

Thanks, Ray, for prodding Gabriel into letting us in on it. I always expected great things, but now I have no choice. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra / Zinman  Bronfman - Op 15 Concerto #1 in C for Piano 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 13, 2009, 03:04:38 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 12, 2009, 04:35:04 PM
...(if I am listening correctly, it is a very short rondo-sonata form, with inverted subjects in the recapitulation).

I'm sorry if I have been inaccurate in some descriptions, but it is already 2:30 AM in France and this can have some consequences on musical explorations. ;)

I was inaccurate indeed. The fourth movement of the quintet is written in sonata form with inversion of the subjects in the recapitulation, and not in rondo-sonata.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2009, 05:55:54 PM
OK, well I guess I can't put it off any longer. I've put that Europa Galante disk in the shopping basket. :)

You will not regret it, Gurn. This is really great music, and excellently played.

I will try to post in the near future some comments on the new CD of Krommer's string quartets by the Marcolini Quartet. I've listened to it once and I think there are some interesting points to write about. (As Dave has the CD too, I guess he could start writing some appreciations). :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on May 13, 2009, 05:47:22 PM
Pleyel...  What I have heard of him I have liked.  No doubt he lies somewhere around the bend in my ever-winding music road!  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 14, 2009, 04:28:16 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on May 13, 2009, 05:47:22 PM
Pleyel...  What I have heard of him I have liked.  No doubt he lies somewhere around the bend in my ever-winding music road!  ;)

That's the great thing about music: so much of it to catch up to! I've no doubt you will run across Pleyel, probably rather sooner than later, and you'll like what you hear. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2009, 06:17:54 PM
I have been waiting for the appearance of one of my very favorite composers here, but since he is shy as well as lovable, I guess I will have to bring him into the Corner on my own, with an able assist from Dave, who originally posted this bio in the old Forum.

Antonio Rosetti (1746-1792), a.k.a. František Antonín Rössler (or confusingly by other names) was born in Bohemia of Czech origin, but chose to Italianize his name (leading to further confusion with other musicians).  He received his education in Prague and at a Jesuit college in central Bohemia, where he studied theology (intending to be a priest) and music, but in the early 1770s decided to pick music as his avocation.  Rosetti was a double bass player and a member of the Prince Ernst orchestra, of which he became director in 1785.  The Prince's orchestra had a fine group of wind players and musical events at the chateau occurred weekly, so a large part of Rosetti's compositional oeuvre comprises works of chamber music.

In 1781, he visited Paris, where his music was warmly received, an event repeated in other European cities.  Rosetti became orchestral conductor of the Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin in 1789 at the peak of his reputation; symphonies and vocal works were commissioned further enhancing his reputation.  During that time, he was also summoned to the court of King Frederick William III of Berlin to present his Oratorio Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.  However, Rosetti, who suffered from poor health most of his life, became seriously ill. and died in June of 1792 and was buried at Ludwigslust (debate exists about his age claiming his year of birth to be ca. 1750).

Rosetti's musical influences were primarily late Baroque-early Classic with Haydn having a major impact on his compositional direction.  In addition, his writing for smaller groups, especially wind instruments, was governed by his contact with the wind players in the ochestras of which he directed or was a member.  A partial listing of his works (comprising 400 or so) include 44 Symphonies, 4 keyboard concerti, 6 violin concerti, 1 viola concerto, 12 flute concerti, 7 oboe concerti, 4 clarinet concerti, 5 bassoon concerti, 17 horn concerti, 6 double horn concerti, 5 sinfonia concertantes, 38 partitas/serenades, 12 string quartets, 11 keyboard sonatas, 13 keyboard trios, 13 masses, 4 requiems, 22 other church works and 82 lieder reference here).

I wish I could say I have more of his music, since much of it has finally come available over the last 10 years, but I do have 10 or so disks which I am quite fond of. He is the quintessential Classical composer, writing in all genres as noted above, and particularly composing very fine wind music. Maybe someone will post some disks of interest, and I certainly will do so soon. :)

8)

PS - This one below is particularly choice! ;)
----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Köln - Rosetti Mur A27 Sinfonia  in Eb 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on May 18, 2009, 12:38:21 AM
(http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00029/2_29457t.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51k0by59mIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

These are sublime.

The modernist Pollini and that impeccable VPO in live recordings of K. 414 & 491, and 453 & 491. Musical awareness easily undoes historical awareness, IMO.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 18, 2009, 09:48:07 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2009, 06:17:54 PM
Antonio Rosetti (1746-1792) ...............Rosetti's musical influences were primarily late Baroque-early Classic with Haydn having a major impact on his compositional direction.  In addition, his writing for smaller groups, especially wind instruments, was governed by his contact with the wind players in the ochestras of which he directed or was a member.  A partial listing of his works (comprising 400 or so) include 44 Symphonies, 4 keyboard concerti, 6 violin concerti, 1 viola concerto, 12 flute concerti, 7 oboe concerti, 4 clarinet concerti, 5 bassoon concerti, 17 horn concerti, 6 double horn concerti, 5 sinfonia concertantes, 38 partitas/serenades, 12 string quartets, 11 keyboard sonatas, 13 keyboard trios, 13 masses, 4 requiems, 22 other church works and 82 lieder reference here).[/color]

I wish I could say I have more of his music, since much of it has finally come available over the last 10 years, but I do have 10 or so disks which I am quite fond of. He is the quintessential Classical composer, writing in all genres as noted above, and particularly composing very fine wind music. Maybe someone will post some disks of interest, and I certainly will do so so.....

Hello Gurn - just returning from a long weekend trip to the mountains & ready to 'jump into' the forum again!  :D

Despite Rosetti's varied output, I would strongly endorse his wind music for those in a classical 'breezy' mood!  I also have about 10 discs (most on the CPO label - in fact, bought as a large 'box set' that may no longer be available); however, for those who use BRO, check HERE (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=rosetti&filter=all) for some great values on CPO offerings from this composer! 

However, I've not acquired any recent CDs, so must take a look!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 23, 2009, 07:05:41 AM
Gaetano Brunetti's (dates below) String Quartets have been coming up in a number of threads and may warrant further discussion?  He was first brought to my attention from posts by Traverso & Gabriel, the latter quoted below my short one left in the 'listening thread'; about the only other recording that I can find on Amazon are some Symphonies by a group which I admire (pic inserted below, right).  Gabriel's comments on the SQs are quite perceptive and I'm listening to that disc @ the moment.

Brunetti, an Italian, spent his adult years in Spain at the Madrid court; he was sponsored by Carlos IV, ruler of Spain - he pretty much co-existed w/ Boccherini on the Iberian peninsula, but little of his large output has been published and a scant amount recorded.  Brunetti, according to the liner notes composed 39 symphonies and overtures, much chamber music, and many compositions in other categories; the chamber works include violin sonatas, 60 string quintets, and over 50 string quartets; apparently, Carlos IV was often a second violinist in the performances of these chamber works, and was devastated by the sudden death of the composer in 1798; perhaps these works still survived, sequestered in Madrid (or elsewhere) - yet, another long forgotten classical composer who deserves a MAJOR rediscovery!   :D

Quote from: SonicMan on May 20, 2009, 03:39:31 PM
Brunetti, Gaetano (1744-1798) - String Quartets w/ Anton Steck & Schuppanzigh Quartett - this composer is 'new' to me but has been recommended in these pages; an Italian who spent his adult life at the Spanish court of the late 18th century, and a contemporary of Boccherini - Brunetti wrote a LOT of music (esp. chamber works & symphonies), but little has been published and even much less recorded - this guy is good & needs some further exploration!  If you like classical SQs, this recording will be a joy!

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/540470824_LqRTz-M.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CDKPAANHL._SL500_AA240_.gif)

Quote from: Gabriel on May 06, 2009, 05:31:38 AM
I transpose a message I've just written in another thread, concerning - naturally - a classical composer.

It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso. It's the only CD I own of Brunetti's music, and I would like to know more of it before trying to describe the style of the composer. But specifically about these few string quartets I can say that it is some of the most intriguing chamber music of the classical period. Perhaps it is the use of listening to the Viennese composers of the time, but even compared with Boccherini's works these are very special; I would even say that they are very strange. Their emotional approach is a light one, but the music in itself is quite twisted: very strange textures, unexpected modulations, irregular subjects, and lots of other surprises.

If I had to describe these works, I'd say they are like a piranha. Their size is deceiving. And when gathered in groups, they can create a very powerful force. According to Wikipedia, he wrote a considerable amount of chamber music (44 string quartets, 66 string quintets, and so on). If most of his music had at least the level presented by this CD, we would be in front of a very sadly forgotten composer; and considering that Brunetti was active in Spain at the same time Boccherini was, they both could offer a most distinguished counterpoint to the Haydn-Mozart Austrian chamber music writing of this period.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 23, 2009, 11:16:29 AM
Thanks for recalling Brunetti into this discussion, Dave. What is your opinion on the symphonies CD? Are they written with the same twisted spirit of the string quartets, or are they closer to traditional mid-classical standards?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 23, 2009, 11:28:41 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 23, 2009, 11:16:29 AM
Thanks for recalling Brunetti into this discussion, Dave. What is your opinion on the symphonies CD? Are they written with the same twisted spirit of the string quartets, or are they closer to traditional mid-classical standards?

Hi Gabriel - I don't own that symphony disc, but was amazed on 'searching' Amazon that it was about the only other recording available of this composer's works! However, I'm putting together an Amazon order this weekend and may just add the CD to my list (need to re-check the pricing, though) - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 23, 2009, 02:42:07 PM
Check the pricing... I hope it will be bon marché! I would be eager for such a review, Dave!

(I've received a new Krommer flute quintets CD, and it is extremely good! I hope, nevertheless, to post something about the Krommer string quartets CD in the following days, as I promised).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on May 24, 2009, 05:30:44 PM
In my recording of Mozart's Haydn quartets they repeat the recap section, and it becomes 4 minutes longer than other recordings of the d min 1st mov quartet I have. What's the deal with that? Was it common to do that or are they just being weirdos? I got these cds because of their recordings of Haydn's quartets but I don't think they repeat the recap section in those.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on May 24, 2009, 05:34:45 PM
Actually...it seems they do it there too...im trying out the op 76 d minor one and they do it there also.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2009, 05:39:06 PM
Quote from: Mozart on May 24, 2009, 05:30:44 PM
In my recording of Mozart's Haydn quartets they repeat the recap section, and it becomes 4 minutes longer than other recordings of the d min 1st mov quartet I have. What's the deal with that? Was it common to do that or are they just being weirdos? I got these cds because of their recordings of Haydn's quartets but I don't think they repeat the recap section in those.

Who are the performers?

Generally speaking, the repeats are written but not played. This is something that developed over the years because performers were reacting to the audience having a short attention span. Repeats give the proper proportion and balance to classical sonata form, and so should not be skipped. It is unusual for a repeat to be an exact repetition of the exposition, even if it was written that way. In the Classical Era, performers were expected to ornament differently, or put some nuance that made it different. In the later periods, composers (Beethoven is a good example) actually wrote it out slightly differently. In any case, it is now becoming more usual to play the repeats. IMO, this is a good thing. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2009, 05:40:33 PM
Quote from: Mozart on May 24, 2009, 05:34:45 PM
Actually...it seems they do it there too...im trying out the op 76 d minor one and they do it there also.

Let me guess... Quattors Mosaiques?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on May 24, 2009, 05:51:54 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2009, 05:40:33 PM
Let me guess... Quattors Mosaiques?  :)

8)

Yeppo, I actually didn't like their Mozart recordings as much as their Haydn ones, but I'm not sure why yet.


Well at least now I have something new to pay attention to, in the past I didn't really follow the structure, I would just sort of memorize what would come next.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2009, 05:56:29 PM
Quote from: Mozart on May 24, 2009, 05:51:54 PM
Yeppo, I actually didn't like their Mozart recordings as much as their Haydn ones, but I'm not sure why yet.


Well at least now I have something new to pay attention to, in the past I didn't really follow the structure, I would just sort of memorize what would come next.



:D

I haven't heard their Haydn yet, but I liked the Mozart. I found their Beethoven to be a bit... "draggy", but that might have just been me on that day. I really like the Festetics' Haydn, and the Smithson's Mozart & Beethoven, but I would certainly not reject the Mosaiques' Haydn, in fact, I'm just a bit jealous... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Valentino on May 25, 2009, 12:23:43 AM
You should be, Gurn.  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 25, 2009, 06:50:27 PM
I'm now posting the promised review on the works by Krommer included in the recent release of the Marcolini Quartett. I will focus on Krommer's compositions, and therefore I won't make any comment on the performances.

When I last posted about this CD, I had just listened to some available clips so to form an image of the Krommer sound in the field of string quartet. During his lifetime it was considered as his specialty, so I didn't expect to face a bad work. I guess I remarked in that post that there was something strange in the Krommer sound.

Anyway, I will start chronologically, for there are three works included: op. 19 n. 2, op. 74 n. 3 and op. 103 n. 3.

The first one, op. 19 n. 2 (F major), wasn't a surprise at all. I own a recording of the quartets op. 18 and, as these ones, op. 19 n. 2 is written in an excellent 1800 style, like late Haydn or early Beethoven. It is a very beautiful work and lovers of this style will not be disappointed.

But we meet the real Krommer in the two later quartets, that clearly show Krommer inventing his way for evolving classical style. I will remark some points that I found very interesting (the booklet notes, by the way, do not contain special remarks on Krommer's style and very slight ones concerning these works, so I hope mine might be useful for interested listeners).

I would say that op. 74 n. 3 (D minor) is quite an irregular work. I don't have too much to say about the second and fourth movements, but on the other hand I think the first and third are very interesting.

The jewel of the CD is op. 103/3, in A minor. It is a very regular work; every movement hides interesting features. Very briefly:


I hope this short review will motivate GMG posters to explore these hidden corners of classicism. I was really delighted to see how Krommer, far from being the excellent but light-hearted composer of wind music could develop a style that was quite his own during the first three decades of the nineteenth century; this is confirmed by other of his works from this period that I've been so happy to discover. I hope this suggested enthusiasm for recording Krommer's string quartets will go on, for I am sure that there is a lot of really excellent music waiting to delight listeners around the world.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2009, 06:59:16 PM
That is a fascinating and very insightful review, Gabriel, thanks so much. This disk has already worked its way considerably up my "to buy" list, and this will have it leapfrogging a few others. As much as I greatly enjoy Krommer's lighter works, and his wind works in particular, it will be a pleasure to see him at his secret best. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Schröder / van Immerseel - LvB Op 24 Sonata in F for Fortepiano & Violin 4th mvmt - Rondo: Allegro ma non troppo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on May 26, 2009, 06:50:44 PM
Just popping in the Corner to say, "Hi."  ;)

Gurn,
You might be interested to know that I just ordered ten CD's of Vivaldi, most of it Biondi's work - I'll let you know what I think after I've listened to it all!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 27, 2009, 06:11:39 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 25, 2009, 06:50:27 PM
I'm now posting the promised review on the works by Krommer included in the recent release of the Marcolini Quartett. I will focus on Krommer's compositions, and therefore I won't make any comment on the performances......


Gabriel - thank you for that thorough and insightful review of the Krommer SQs disc - now, I must go back w/ your comments in mind and re-listen to my copy of that recording!   :D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on May 28, 2009, 05:00:38 AM
Quote from: robnewman on May 28, 2009, 04:52:02 AM
J.B. Vanhal (1739-1813)

Introducing one of the most remarkable but still largely unknown composers of the 18th century. Johann Baptist Vanhal (1739-1813) .  A man whose  career has been often overshadowed by Mozart but who, in fact, had close and vital musical association with him. Vanhal's career in Vienna came to an abrupt end around 1781 in Vienna (the official reason being some sort of mental illness) though in fact he continued to compose up until the time of his death in 1813. Composer of over 60 symphonies, around the same number of masses, chamber music and concertos. Many of them of very fine quality.

The rediscovery of this man's music and recent recordings have done much to restore our appreciation of Vanhal's remarkable talents.

Johann Baptist Vanhal
Symphony in G Major
c.1776/7
1st Movement

http://www.mediafire.com/?00fnytymhn4


It's already clear that you are here solely for purposes of flogging your own project;  and that you cannot be bothered to investigate the Forum outside your blinkers.  Also, that you have appointed yourself emcee of any and every topic tangential to your own obsession (see flogging, above).

But here is a perfectly active thread wherein discussion of Vanhal is germane.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on May 28, 2009, 05:31:26 PM
I was a little taken aback (but, I guess, needn't have been) by how difficult it was, trying to find specs on the Vanhal symphony I heard on WCRB (referenced here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,46.msg313404.html#msg313404)).  In some of the 'catalogues' given as external links at the bottom of the Wikipedia article, for instance, there is no Symphony in F to be found.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2009, 05:34:54 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 28, 2009, 05:31:26 PM
I was a little taken aback (but, I guess, needn't have been) by how difficult it was, trying to find specs on the Vanhal symphony I heard on WCRB (referenced here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,46.msg313404.html#msg313404)).  In some of the 'catalogues' given as external links at the bottom of the Wikipedia article, for instance, there is no Symphony in F to be found.

Well, I have at least 1 of them, but it doesn't have a Bryson number (virtually the only one I have without one!) so I can't be more precise... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Mozarteum Orchestra Salzburg / Graf - K 249 March in D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on June 03, 2009, 12:01:46 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 27, 2009, 06:11:39 AM
Gabriel - thank you for that thorough and insightful review of the Krommer SQs disc - now, I must go back w/ your comments in mind and re-listen to my copy of that recording!   :D  Dave

Dave, I hope you'll find my descriptions useful. The mood of Krommer's later works is very particular and these quartets (I mean opp. 74 and 103) show it very clearly.

:)

I would just like to post some impressions on my recent trip to Austria, where I participated in the Haydn commemorations for the 200th anniversary of his death. Even if these events don't have the magnitude of - for instance - Mozart years, I think that they had the advantage of being strictly musical and not a global process of marketing on a composer that is popularly known even by people who don't know his music. I felt among attendants a genuine musical interest and being there was really a delight.

It would be mistaken to think that there were no elements of marketing on Haydn's year, however. In Vienna, tourism offices and music shops, for instance, made it very clear that something was happening. But naturally it was in Eisenstadt where this situation was more clearly perceptible. For such a small town, this was really a great event, and Haydn was everywhere: restaurants (there was even a "Haydngoulash" that I didn't try), bookshops, music shops, shoe distributors, pharmacies... Everything turned around Haydn and it didn't look just like plain marketing; there was a kind of emotional approach beyond simple marketing, a simultaneous exhibition of legitimate musical pride.

I visited Haydn's houses in Vienna and Eisenstadt. I had visited the former 11 years ago, and if it is true that it doesn't keep many Haydn belongings, it has a wonderful atmosphere. The Eisenstadt house was something new for me, and it impressed me quite a lot. One of the anecdotes is that for the first time I saw an illustration of Haydn without the usual wig (so to discover that he had considerably less hair than the wig had). I was impressed to notice that, for this Haydn year, the original portraits of Mozart by Krafft and of Beethoven by Mähler were being displayed there. There were some other interesting manuscripts (for example, a copy in Beethoven's hand of a Haydn string quartet) or original printed works (for example, a copy of the emotive dedication from Mozart to Haydn of his six quartets).

In the most emotional moment of the trip, on May 30th I went to the Bergkirche in Eisenstadt to visit the Haydn Mausoleum and leave some flowers there for him. The beautiful bunch of flowers I bought was, alas, "confiscated" ten minutes later by the organization, arguing that there were some restrictions concerning the perspective of the TV broadcasts. I was told that the flowers would be kept and put back in the mausoleum once these activities would have been finished. In any case, those ten minutes were very profoundly emotional, because I actually went into the mausoleum and had some time for being "alone" with Haydn, as there was nobody else (I'm not sure if the gates of the mausoleum are usually open, but during those minutes they were, as it seemed that the TV people were installing some devices). So I can say I had the joy of praying for Haydn there; it was so beautiful a moment, that I didn't care too much about the incident of the flowers some minutes later.

I attended two concerts in the splendid Haydnsaal of the Esterházy castle. One was on May 30th, Paul Goodwin leading most excitingly the AAM in the performance of symphonies n. 26, 30, 44 and 49 (number 44 was particularly remarkable). And the other was on May 31st, the bicentennial concert in which The Creation was most wonderfully performed by Adám Fischer, the Austro-Hungarian Haydn Philharmonia, Annette Dasch, Christoph Strehl, and Thomas Quasthoff. The performance was truly splendid, in every way: the acoustics of the Haydnsaal are particularly vivid, so the sound of the instruments (particularly the wind instruments) was unforgettable. The singing was simply remarkable: the powerful dark tone of Dasch was an excellent counterpart to the brilliant, beautiful voice of Strehl. But for me the star of the performance was Quasthoff. I had never listened to him live, and I can just say I will not forget his magnificent performance; he was as solid in the high register as in the low one, and every line was sung with the most excellent taste and with the most splendorous beauty of tone and powerful expression.

Further anecdotes. After the concert finished, I went to the hotel to change my costume and wear more confortable clothes in order to have a walk through the gardens of the Esterházy palace. When I arrived to the Orangerie, I noticed there was some activity inside, and not knowing what it was, I sat on a nearby bench for trying to figure out what was happening to my camera, that didn't want to work properly. Suddenly, a voice in the Orangerie began to sing "Moon river". I told myself "this voice sounds like someone I know". When at the end the unknown singer reached a particularly low note, I realized that it was Thomas Quasthoff who was singing. Some minutes later he and Annette Dasch got out of the Orangerie and got into a car.

On Monday morning I was leaving back to Vienna. Before checking out of the hotel I went to have my breakfast... to discover that the main artists were having their breakfast there too! I didn't know they were staying in the same hotel were I was; as the same concert was to be performed again on Monday, it was natural that they stayed in Eisenstadt. Quasthoff, Strehl and Dasch were having a most animated conversation in their table, and in one moment, when Quasthoff and Dasch had left, I had the opportunity to congratulate Strehl personally for the splendid performance of the previous day. Some minutes later, when checking out, Thomas Quasthoff appeared at the reception so I also congratulated him. Annette Dasch and Adám Fischer appeared a bit later, but they were already leaving to the concert. I was particularly happy - and moved - of meeting briefly these great artists who serve music so beautifully, and especially in this important Haydn celebration.

That's a short account of this memorable trip to Austria. If its content doesn't belong to the Classical Corner, dear Gurn, I will gladly transpose it to the Diner, but I wanted to share these impressions with all GMG members.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on June 03, 2009, 12:18:25 PM
That was a wonderful read, Gabriel. Thanks for sharing it with us. :) I think I might have caught a little bit of one of those concerts on TV, in a sort of news item on the Haydn year. Alas, they were all speaking German and I couldn't understand anything. The concert hall, which I suppose was the Haydnsaal, was magnificent -- even through the idiot box! I cannot help but imagine how wonderful it would have been to experience it all live.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2009, 12:52:45 PM
You are far too humble, my Dear Gabriel; I couldn't think of a more appropriate setting for your travelogue! No wonder you were so quiet all weekend, you were having a momentous occasion!  I am envious, but above all, pleased that you were able to take part. :)

Cheers,
8)


----------------
Listening to:
Freiburg Baroque Orchestra - K 297B Anh C14.01 Sinfonia Concertante in Eb for Flute, Oboe, Horn & Bassoon 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 03, 2009, 04:08:33 PM
Lovely, Gabriel!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: snyprrr on June 03, 2009, 05:58:12 PM
I just saw that Krommer SQ disc the other day. Your review makes it inevitable!

Why can't I get much info on Albrechtsberger? Another one of those "wrote 100 SQs" types?

I wrote a little list of classical composers on the SQ thread.

The SQ is 250!!!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2009, 06:09:34 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 03, 2009, 05:58:12 PM
I just saw that Krommer SQ disc the other day. Your review makes it inevitable!

Why can't I get much info on Albrechtsberger? Another one of those "wrote 100 SQs" types?

I wrote a little list of classical composers on the SQ thread.

The SQ is 250!!!

Info on Albrechtsberger is... uncommon, it's true. What i have picked up has mainly been from reading about others, in whose lives he figured, mostly as a teacher of counterpoint. This is what his reputation was based on. Some of his more famous students were Beethoven, Hummel and Reicha.

(from Wiki and other websites)

Johann Georg Albrechtsberger (Composer)

Born: February 3, 1736 - Kloserneuburg, near Vienna, Austria
Died: March 7, 1809 - Vienna, Austria

Johann Georg Albrechtsberger was an Austrian musician, master of musical theory, and teacher of Hummel and Beethoven.

Life
Johann Georg Albrechtsberger began his musical career at the early age of seven as a choir-boy with the Augustinians in Klosterneuburg, , where he also studied the organ and composition. The pastor of St. Martin's, Klosterneuburg, observing the boy's talent and his remarkable industry, and being himself an excellent musician, gave him the first lessons in thoroughbass, and even had a little organ built for him. Young Albrechtsberger's ambition was so great that he did not even rest on Sundays and holidays. To complete his scientific and musical studies he repaired to the Benedictine Abbey at Melk (from 1749). Here his beautiful soprano voice attracted the attention of the future Emperor Leopold, who on one occasion expressed his high appreciation and presented the boy with a ducat. The library at Melk gave him the opportunity to study the works of Antonio Caldara, Johann Joseph Fux, Giovanni Battista Pergolesi, Georg Frideric Handel, Graun etc. He also studied philosophy at a Benedictine (Jesuit) seminary in Vienna (1754) and became one of the most learned and skillful contrapuntists of his age. His his profound knowledge of music gave him a high rank among theorists.

Having completed his studies, J.G. Albrechtsberger became organist at the Melk cathedral, where he remained for twelve years. He next had charge of the choir and organist at Raab in Hungary (1755), and at Mariatfel (1757), and back in Melk (1759-1765). Subsequently, in 1765, he went to Vienna having been named choir-director of the church of the Carmelites. Here he took lessons from the court organist, Mann, who was highly esteemed at that time. Mann became his friend, as did also Joseph and Michael Haydn, Gassmann, and other excellent musicians. In 1772 he obtained the position of second court organist (and in 1792 promoted to First organist) in Vienna, which Emperor Joseph had promised him years before. This position he held for twenty years. He became Assistant Kapellmeister at St. Stephen's Cathedral in 1791, where he was promoted to Kapellmeister in 1793.

J.G. Albrechtsberger's fame as a theorist attracted to him in the Austrian capital a large number of pupils, some of whom afterwards became eminent musicians. Among them were Johann Nepomuk Hummel, Joseph Eybler, Ignaz Moscheles, Josef Weigl (1766-1846), Ludwig von Beethoven and others. Beethoven had arrived in Vienna in 1792 to study with Haydn but quickly became infuriated when his work was not being given attention or corrected. Haydn recommended (This isn't true, Beethoven went off in secret to study and didn't tell Haydn GB) his friend Albrechtsberger, with whom Beethoven then studied harmony and counterpoint (1794-1795). On completion of his studies, the young student noted, "Patience, diligence, persistence, and sincerity will lead to success," which reflects upon Albrechtsberger's own compositional philosophies. The Swedish Academy of Music at Stockholm made him an honorary member in 1798. J.G. Albrechtsberger died in Vienna on March 7, 1809, less than three months before Josef Haydn. His grave is in St. Marx cemetery. His status in musical history rests mainly on his theoretical writings and his knowledge of counterpoint.

Works
Johann Georg Albrechtsberger will probably always hold a high rank among musical scientists, his treatise on composition especially will ever remain a work of importance by reason of its lucidity and minuteness of detail. He composed nearly 300 church works, around 300 keyboard works (mainly organ) and over 240 various other works. His many church compositions, on the other hand, while technically correct and ornate, are dry, and betray the theorist. Of his compositions, only 27 are printed; of the unpublished remainder, the larger part is preserved in the library of the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde at Vienna. His published compositions consist of preludes, fugues and sonatas for the piano and organ, string quartets, etc.. His compositional style derives from Johann Joseph Fux's counterpoint, who was Kapellmeister at St. Stephen's Cathedral 1713-1741, a position that Albrechtsberger would hold 52 years later. Around 1765, Albrechtsberger wrote at least seven concerti for Jew's harp and strings (three survive in the Hungarian National Library in Budapest). They are pleasant, well written works in the galant style. One of his most notable works is his concerto for Alto Trombone and Orchestra in Bb Major. As the trombone has few works dating back to the classical period, his concerto is often highlighted by the trombone community.

Probably the most valuable service he rendered to music was in his theoretical works. As a highly influential composition teacher, he published in 1790 at Leipzig his famous Treatise on composition, a clearly written and accessible work in which he formulated 18th-century theory, of which a third edition appeared in 1821. His complete works on thoroughbass, harmony and composition were published, in three volumes, by his pupil, Ignaz Von Seyfried (1776-1841) in 1826. An English version of this was published by Novello in 1855.

That's not much, but it might give you a little bit.
8)


----------------
Listening to:
Freiburg Baroque Orchestra - K 300a 297 Symphony #31 in D 1st mvmt - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2009, 06:22:33 PM
And there is this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NrQqYTGyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

which I haven't heard yet, but which looks interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Gabriel has heard it... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Joanna Leach - Hob 17 06 Variations in f for Keyboard - Square Piano
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 03, 2009, 06:52:18 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on June 03, 2009, 12:01:46 PM
I would just like to post some impressions on my recent trip to Austria, where I participated in the Haydn commemorations for the 200th anniversary of his death......................

Gabriel - thank you for the wonderful travelogue - I would have loved to enjoy those very experiences w/ you!  I consider such a trip almost 'religious' -  :D

My most recent similar feeling (not musical but historical) was a recent trip to Boston - took a day off from a medical meeting and took the subway to Braintree MA, south of Boston; visit to the John Adams houses (saw three) - homes of John & Abigail Adams & their son, John Quincy - both presidents of the USA - first time visit and just a special visit - love those thrilling experiences!   Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on June 04, 2009, 03:14:00 AM
Thanks for your kind comments on my Austrian musical experiences, my friends. :)

Quote from: opus67 on June 03, 2009, 12:18:25 PM
The concert hall, which I suppose was the Haydnsaal, was magnificent -- even through the idiot box! I cannot help but imagine how wonderful it would have been to experience it all live.

The Haydnsaal is unbelievably beautiful and its acoustics are remarkable. And the audience came from different parts of the world (I met people from the UK, Hong Kong and Germany), even if I think that naturally most of them were Austrians. I was surprised by the excellent organization: two weeks before the concert I received an e-mail explaining that there would be a live broadcast and so that all attendants should arrive on time because access would be forbidden after the beginning of the performance. (As a matter of fact, the three parts of the oratorio were played almost without any pause).

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2009, 12:52:45 PM
No wonder you were so quiet all weekend, you were having a momentous occasion!  I am envious, but above all, pleased that you were able to take part. :)

I was as quiet in GMG as in the Haydnsaal, with so magnificent music being performed so brilliantly! (I have no words for explaining the effect of "Und es ward Licht!" in the performance: I felt "brushed" by the music, as if a kind of "musical solar wind" had appeared. It is incredible that, even knowing what will happen, this moment does not lose its magnificence.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2009, 06:22:33 PM
which I haven't heard yet, but which looks interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Gabriel has heard it... :)

So you won't be surprised. ;D It is a very good CD, a good purchase for anyone interested in Haydn's or Mozart's quartets. They are not in the front line of the most excellent quartets of the period, but they are beautifully written. Even if Albrechtsberger was famous as teacher of counterpoint, he doesn't display any exaggerated profusion of it: these are austere works that invite for a pleasant listening. A very pleasant one, I'd say.

Quote from: SonicMan on June 03, 2009, 06:52:18 PM
Gabriel - thank you for the wonderful travelogue - I would have loved to enjoy those very experiences w/ you!  I consider such a trip almost 'religious' -  :D

It was a very beautiful experience. When thinking that Haydn said (to Hummel I guess) that everything that was beautiful came from God, it was inevitable to link all the trip to Haydn's very religious approach to life: the visit to his mausoleum, the performance of Die Schöpfung - a religious composition -, and so on. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2009, 04:10:21 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2009, 06:09:34 PM
Johann Georg Albrechtsberger (Composer)

Born: February 3, 1736 - Kloserneuburg, near Vienna, Austria
Died: March 7, 1809 - Vienna, Austria

[...]

Hmm;  more credible that Albrechtsberger "really" wrote Mozart, wot?  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 04, 2009, 07:04:40 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2009, 06:22:33 PM
And there is this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NrQqYTGyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://www.szabadi.com/HCD%2032109.jpg)

which I haven't heard yet, but which looks interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Gabriel has heard it... :)

Gurn - thanks for bringing together that information on Albrechtsberger - he keeps 'popping up' in my readings of this era, but I own nothing by this composer (and not much seems available!).  Thanks to Gabriel on his comments about the disc you posted.  In perusing Amazon, another recording that was of interest to me is added above, i.e. String Trios (performances split w/ another composer, Johannes Sperger) - comments from anyone, please?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: snyprrr on June 04, 2009, 08:53:26 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 04, 2009, 04:10:21 AM
Hmm;  more credible that Albrechtsberger "really" wrote Mozart, wot?  8)

>:D/ 0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: bhodges on June 05, 2009, 09:33:18 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on June 03, 2009, 12:01:46 PM
I would just like to post some impressions on my recent trip to Austria, where I participated in the Haydn commemorations for the 200th anniversary of his death...

But for me the star of the performance was Quasthoff. I had never listened to him live, and I can just say I will not forget his magnificent performance; he was as solid in the high register as in the low one, and every line was sung with the most excellent taste and with the most splendorous beauty of tone and powerful expression.

Gabriel, thank you for the great write-up of your trip.  And Quasthoff is amazing, isn't he!  Great that you got to hear him, and even nicer that you got to meet him.  IMHO he is one of the great singers on the scene today, and generally gives performances that linger in the memory for long after. 

Loved the "Moon River" anecdote, priceless. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on June 05, 2009, 03:30:25 PM
Quote from: bhodges on June 05, 2009, 09:33:18 AM
Gabriel, thank you for the great write-up of your trip.  And Quasthoff is amazing, isn't he!  Great that you got to hear him, and even nicer that you got to meet him.  IMHO he is one of the great singers on the scene today, and generally gives performances that linger in the memory for long after. 

Loved the "Moon River" anecdote, priceless. 

--Bruce

Bruce, I have your same "humble opinion" about Quasthoff: a great artist and a great man.

Thanks so much for your kind comments about my impressions. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on June 08, 2009, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2009, 06:17:54 PM
I have been waiting for the appearance of one of my very favorite composers here, but since he is shy as well as lovable, I guess I will have to bring him into the Corner on my own, with an able assist from Dave, who originally posted this bio in the old Forum.

Antonio Rosetti (1746-1792), a.k.a. František Antonín Rössler (or confusingly by other names) was born in Bohemia of Czech origin, but chose to Italianize his name (leading to further confusion with other musicians).  He received his education in Prague and at a Jesuit college in central Bohemia, where he studied theology (intending to be a priest) and music, but in the early 1770s decided to pick music as his avocation.  Rosetti was a double bass player and a member of the Prince Ernst orchestra, of which he became director in 1785.  The Prince's orchestra had a fine group of wind players and musical events at the chateau occurred weekly, so a large part of Rosetti's compositional oeuvre comprises works of chamber music.

In 1781, he visited Paris, where his music was warmly received, an event repeated in other European cities.  Rosetti became orchestral conductor of the Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin in 1789 at the peak of his reputation; symphonies and vocal works were commissioned further enhancing his reputation.  During that time, he was also summoned to the court of King Frederick William III of Berlin to present his Oratorio Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.  However, Rosetti, who suffered from poor health most of his life, became seriously ill. and died in June of 1792 and was buried at Ludwigslust (debate exists about his age claiming his year of birth to be ca. 1750).

Rosetti's musical influences were primarily late Baroque-early Classic with Haydn having a major impact on his compositional direction.  In addition, his writing for smaller groups, especially wind instruments, was governed by his contact with the wind players in the ochestras of which he directed or was a member.  A partial listing of his works (comprising 400 or so) include 44 Symphonies, 4 keyboard concerti, 6 violin concerti, 1 viola concerto, 12 flute concerti, 7 oboe concerti, 4 clarinet concerti, 5 bassoon concerti, 17 horn concerti, 6 double horn concerti, 5 sinfonia concertantes, 38 partitas/serenades, 12 string quartets, 11 keyboard sonatas, 13 keyboard trios, 13 masses, 4 requiems, 22 other church works and 82 lieder reference here).

I wish I could say I have more of his music, since much of it has finally come available over the last 10 years, but I do have 10 or so disks which I am quite fond of. He is the quintessential Classical composer, writing in all genres as noted above, and particularly composing very fine wind music. Maybe someone will post some disks of interest, and I certainly will do so soon. :)

8)

PS - This one below is particularly choice! ;)
----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Köln - Rosetti Mur A27 Sinfonia  in Eb 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegretto

I caught a piano concerto of his on youtube, it was delicious! I never heard of this guy before.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2009, 04:55:20 PM
Quote from: Mozart on June 08, 2009, 04:24:01 PM
I caught a piano concerto of his on youtube, it was delicious! I never heard of this guy before.

Really. I need to dig that up. I have never heard any piano music by him, concerto or sonata (or in between). Thanks for mentioning it, I'll go look. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Zukerman Nat. Arts Center Orch / Zukerman - FJH Concerto #1 in C for Violin Hob VIIa 1 1st mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on June 08, 2009, 05:23:07 PM
I think you are in for a surprise! It certainly took me that way. Here is a taste.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/-EGcPb9sWww&feature=PlayList&p=30D65B6654A16A9A&index=0
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2009, 05:38:12 PM
Quote from: Mozart on June 08, 2009, 05:23:07 PM
I think you are in for a surprise! It certainly took me that way. Here is a taste.


Hey, that was good!  Very much Viennese High Classical style. And as you would expect, he features the horns in the tutti quite prominently. Nice, thanks!  :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Zurich CO / Griffiths - Cherubini Overture from Lodoïska 1791
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on June 08, 2009, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2009, 05:38:12 PM
Hey, that was good!  Very much Viennese High Classical style. And as you would expect, he features the horns in the tutti quite prominently. Nice, thanks!  :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Zurich CO / Griffiths - Cherubini Overture from Lodoïska 1791
Interestingly he wrote 4 horn concertos as well, which I am listening to now, and they remind me of someone's I just can't remember who...  ;D

I wonder who wrote them first, as they really sound so similar to Mozart's!

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/LgXSooIs9pI&feature=PlayList&p=092B7E620499A0BF&index=11
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2009, 05:49:53 PM
Quote from: Mozart on June 08, 2009, 05:43:23 PM
Interestingly he wrote 4 horn concertos as well, which I am listening to now, and they remind me of someone's I just can't remember who...  ;D

I wonder who wrote them first, as they really sound so similar to Mozart's!

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/LgXSooIs9pI&feature=PlayList&p=092B7E620499A0BF&index=11

Oh, he wrote more than 4, he wrote 17 for 1 horn and 6 for 2 horns (that survive today). I have one disk of them too, which I quite enjoy. Somehow it seems unusual to me that he was a double bassist (and cellist, I read somewhere), yet he made his reputation composing for winds. Rather like Danzi, who I believe was a violinist, but who is remembered today as a great composer for flute particularly and also oboe and bassoon. men of many parts. :)

Since Mozart's horn concerti were from rather late in his career, and they died at almost the same time, I would guess that Rosetti wrote his earlier. Maybe not though, just speculating. I haven't seen any sort of chronology on Rosetti's music. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Zurich CO / Griffiths - Cherubini Symphony in D 1815 1st mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on June 08, 2009, 05:53:24 PM
Who was the first to use the tittle romanze in a movement? He uses it in one of the horn concertos also. I am beginning to wonder which dusty shelf this guy out of! I've lived everything I have heard so far.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2009, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: Mozart on June 08, 2009, 05:53:24 PM
Who was the first to use the tittle romanze in a movement? He uses it in one of the horn concertos also. I am beginning to wonder which dusty shelf this guy out of! I've lived everything I have heard so far.

Oh, that was used at least back in the 1760's in Germany, but probably farther back still in France. But as for Rosetti, he has been kept a secret for some reason that I can't quite figure. I've enjoyed all his music right from the first symphony I heard. You should see if they have any wind partitas on there to listen to. They are very nice indeed! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Zurich CO / Griffiths - Cherubini Symphony in D 1815 1st mvmt
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on June 10, 2009, 08:48:37 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vcIu5PB4Qz4/SYyM9SNeyHI/AAAAAAAAA9Y/uNsDwAoxlLk/s320/Hoffmeister_6_duets_1.jpg)

I am taking a this, and have to say its great! It's humorous music stuff.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 10, 2009, 05:10:48 PM
Gurn & Mozart - just have been reading your numerous exchanges on Rosetti - I have about 10 discs of this composer's music, mainly 'wind compositions' of various types, including one CD of horn pieces (shown below) - looks like that there are plenty of other areas of his work to explore - thanks for refreshing my memory of this composer - will put on my own discs soon!  Dave  :D


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfBsm1WtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2009, 05:19:22 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on June 10, 2009, 05:10:48 PM
Gurn & Mozart - just have been reading your numerous exchanges on Rosetti - I have about 10 discs of this composer's music, mainly 'wind compositions' of various types, including one CD of horn pieces (shown below) - looks like that there are plenty of other areas of his work to explore - thanks for refreshing my memory of this composer - will put on my own discs soon!  Dave  :D


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfBsm1WtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Dave,
Yes, I always like to be reminded of Rosetti, because then I play some of his music, to my great enjoyment. :)  Since that discussion the other night, I have been hunting around to see if any of his keyboard sonatas have ever been recorded, but nothing in North America, nor at JPC nor Crochet, so my guess is that they are still virgins in this regard. Unless someone has any info... :-\

CPO has always done Rosetti proud, although my favorite recordings of his symphonies have always been Concerto Köln on Teldec.... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hübner / Lüthy / Eaton / Latzko - Krommer Op 46 #1 Quartet in Bb for Bassoon & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 10, 2009, 05:47:18 PM
Quote from: Mozart on June 10, 2009, 08:48:37 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vcIu5PB4Qz4/SYyM9SNeyHI/AAAAAAAAA9Y/uNsDwAoxlLk/s320/Hoffmeister_6_duets_1.jpg)

I am taking a this, and have to say its great! It's humorous music stuff.

Franz Hoffmeister (1754-1812) - a Mozart contemporary, but lived longer! Just have two CDs of this composer, both of which I enjoy and shown below:

Wind Serenades, Vol. 2 w/ Consortium Classicum (with the wonderful Dieter Klocker on clarinet!) - other instruments include clarinet, horns, bassoons, & double bass; recorded beautifully on the CPO label.

Clarinet Quartets w/ Klocker again + Vlach Quartet Prague (2 violins + cello); again CPO label.

Now, how is the Clarinet & Piano disc? May add to my 'to buy' list if good!  ;D

(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:2yRL7Q7cI728qM:http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2006/Feb06/hoffmeister_7771332.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/450/455971.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on June 11, 2009, 07:57:20 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on June 10, 2009, 05:47:18 PM
Franz Hoffmeister (1754-1812) - a Mozart contemporary, but lived longer! Just have two CDs of this composer, both of which I enjoy and shown below:

Wind Serenades, Vol. 2 w/ Consortium Classicum (with the wonderful Dieter Klocker on clarinet!) - other instruments include clarinet, horns, bassoons, & double bass; recorded beautifully on the CPO label.

Clarinet Quartets w/ Klocker again + Vlach Quartet Prague (2 violins + cello); again CPO label.

Now, how is the Clarinet & Piano disc? May add to my 'to buy' list if good!  ;D

(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:2yRL7Q7cI728qM:http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2006/Feb06/hoffmeister_7771332.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/450/455971.jpg)

It is very...witty music, is it a good adjective? Very enjoyable, I imagine babies laughing to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/iii8J6u0w0s


I heard some string quartets by Rosetti and they put me to sleep :/
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 08:32:26 AM
Quote from: Mozart on June 11, 2009, 07:57:20 AM
Quote from: Mozart on June 11, 2009, 07:57:20 AMI heard some string quartets by Rosetti and they put me to sleep :/

In the good way, or the bad way? ???

btw- what is UP with those craaazy CPO covers??? :o Not very "classical"!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 08:33:37 AM
And no one's heard those Albrechtsberger SQs?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 09:37:09 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 08:33:37 AM
And no one's heard those Albrechtsberger SQs?

Quote from: Gabriel on June 04, 2009, 03:14:00 AM

So you won't be surprised. ;D It is a very good CD, a good purchase for anyone interested in Haydn's or Mozart's quartets. They are not in the front line of the most excellent quartets of the period, but they are beautifully written. Even if Albrechtsberger was famous as teacher of counterpoint, he doesn't display any exaggerated profusion of it: these are austere works that invite for a pleasant listening. A very pleasant one, I'd say.

It was a very beautiful experience. When thinking that Haydn said (to Hummel I guess) that everything that was beautiful came from God, it was inevitable to link all the trip to Haydn's very religious approach to life: the visit to his mausoleum, the performance of Die Schöpfung - a religious composition -, and so on. :)

Here is what Gabriel wrote about it. I think he is the only one so far who has heard it, although SonicMan, like me, has it on his wish list. 8)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 17, 2009, 10:02:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 09:37:09 AM
Here is what Gabriel wrote about it. I think he is the only one so far who has heard it, although SonicMan, like me, has it on his wish list. 8)

Well, Gurn is correct - the SQ disc is still on my 'wish list' - I have the Trios disc on order (as shown on the previous page); but Gabriel's positive review was the prompt to add the recording to my list -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2009, 01:12:28 PM
Almost three months ago I was just happy as a clam listening to the modern music and going about my research, when two things happened simultaneously. I got the ABQ/Teldec box with the Mozart SQs, and robnewman showed up challenging people to listen outside their comfort zones (so to speak, puhleeze, don't pick on me here).

Ever since, I've been on this "classical" kick, and, oh boy, it's getting deep. I'm obsessed with finding the holy grail of c minor and g minor SQs! My general rule is that I won't get it unless it has a minor key SQ on it (which, of course, I've broken!).

Boccherini, Haydn, Dittersdorf, Pleyel...ha!... I can almost tell them apart now! Medic!!!

However, The Artist Known As Mozart does seem to stand out. No one else yet has as much chromatic noodling, for one; and there is a songfulness here missing in others (Andante con moto in K428; the Dissonance SQ). These SQs are quite unique.

One of the most interesting things I've learned is that not everyone wrote SQs in 4 mvmts. Most everyone other than H & M wrote in 3 mvmts., which were substantial, so that SQ timings were about the same no matter how many mvmts. were used. Also, 2 mvmt. SQs were also a feature of a lot of the French SQs (Saint-Georges, Gretry, Gossec, etc.) of the time.

Also, the stylistic change between Haydn's Op.20 and the later maturation of the "classical" sound is really interesting. Op.20 seems almost anachronistic. I seem to like it better than some of the mid-period type SQs before LvB.

But Haydn does seem to emerge as the big daddy. Though the Haydn "sound" seems to run through most all of the composers, he always seems to be at the forefront, his SQs seem the most "interesting." I liked the story about how it dawned on him that the entire civilised Western world considered him the "doyen" of music, and how his Op.77 SQs have such a majestic, opulent gait and demeanor.

I must say, though, through all this, I stttill like minor keys betters, for which, the classical era is not really that well known for (and even some minor key SQs that seem to have been written as trick major key works!). Still, I have found some hints of romanticism here and there (Haydn Op.20, for instance).

I am, however, trying to extricate myself from this quagmire before I run out of gas money!!!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on June 28, 2009, 01:00:37 PM
Maybe this one has already come up, but I'd think this recording would be a no-brainer for classical fanatics:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/2564697650.jpg)

Six symphonies by Vanhal.  Not quite Mozart, rather short works (15 minutes average) but very inventive use of the orchestra and sometimes arresting themes.  The third work on the disc, the "Sinfonia Comista" in C is a standout work, infectious with truly brilliant orchestration.  Nicely performed and recorded.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2009, 01:03:30 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 28, 2009, 01:00:37 PM
Maybe this one has already come up, but I'd think this recording would be a no-brainer for classical fanatics:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/2564697650.jpg)

Six symphonies by Vanhal.  Not quite Mozart, rather short works (15 minutes average) but very inventive use of the orchestra and sometimes arresting themes.  The third work on the disc, the "Sinfonia Comista" in C is a standout work, infectious with truly brilliant orchestration.  Nicely performed and recorded.


Thanks for that tip. I have a couple of the Vanhal disks on Naxos, and I like the music more than the playing. But Concerto Köln is one of my top favorite bands. I, for one, will have to give this one a go. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy / Crawford / Godburn (Bassoon) - K 191 Concerto in Bb for Bassoon 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on June 28, 2009, 01:42:02 PM
It's an essential disc, indeedie, and much better than the already good Naxos ones. Such wiry energy!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on June 28, 2009, 01:59:25 PM
And beware you'll pay a kings ransom for them on an American site, they are bargain releases in Europe.  MDT.  They have an offer on "Das Alte Werk" that is worth checking out.

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/search/searchresults.asp?sFilter1=DAW0509


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on June 29, 2009, 06:39:44 AM
Note that that disc is part of this larger set from Concerto Koln, comprising works by other unknowns from the Classical era.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646988990.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Concerto-K%F6ln-Edition/hnum/6314224)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on June 30, 2009, 07:51:20 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 28, 2009, 01:42:02 PM
It's an essential disc, indeedie, and much better than the already good Naxos ones. Such wiry energy!

Indeed! ;) Lovers of minor keys should be delighted with this selection of symphonies (4 out of 5), outstandingly performed. (However, my favourite Vanhal symphony is the "great" D major, D4 in the Bryan catalogue, if I'm not mistaken).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on June 30, 2009, 07:53:24 AM
I like when Sara says, "Indeedie." Heh.

Anyway, I just bought this:

(http://smallfiles.naxos.com/SharedFiles/Images/cds/others/8.570519.gif)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on June 30, 2009, 08:53:36 AM
Quote from: opus106 on June 29, 2009, 06:39:44 AM
Note that that disc is part of this larger set from Concerto Koln, comprising works by other unknowns from the Classical era.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646988990.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Concerto-K%F6ln-Edition/hnum/6314224)

That looks sweet.  For US purchasers, taking shipping into account MDT is a better deal than jpc.

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//2564698899.htm

I'm severly tempted, although I already have the Vanhal disc.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on June 30, 2009, 09:29:43 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on June 30, 2009, 07:53:24 AM
I like when Sara says, "Indeedie." Heh.


I guess she thinks Indeedie is less rude and pompous than Indeed.   ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2009, 10:59:46 AM
Quote from: opus106 on June 29, 2009, 06:39:44 AM
Note that that disc is part of this larger set from Concerto Koln, comprising works by other unknowns from the Classical era.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646988990.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Concerto-K%F6ln-Edition/hnum/6314224)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/578407907_c7A33-M.jpg)

As w/ many others in this thread, the Concerto Köln is a favorite group of mine, also!  8)

I have that 'box set' (above left) on my 'wish list' - but just received them in the 2-CD addition added above (right) -  Antonio Rosetti's Symphonies - now an absolute steal on the Apex label (recordings from 1995/97); Rosetti has been discussed extensively earlier in this thread, so if you like this band, then yet another consideration (and not repeated in the larger box!) -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on July 02, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
Gurn and others, what do you know about Spech? I'm listening to a string quartet of his played by the Festetics and its good stuff :) Never heard his name before and there isn't much info on him to be found.

Im surprised how good this quartet is...I've only heard num 2 in g minor.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AV2JR2SHL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on July 03, 2009, 10:53:24 AM
Hmmm

What do you think people?

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/tEvuQOC9z9s

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/3kxlA8wjb9I

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/NDXkyjIZJfM

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/qsfXOkOJMsg



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on July 03, 2009, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Mozart on July 03, 2009, 10:53:24 AM
Hmmm

What do you think people?

Nice, and well played too!

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on July 03, 2009, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: Que on July 03, 2009, 11:03:42 AM
Nice, and well played too!

Q

Do you know anything about this guy Q? It seems there are only 2 cds of his music, but judging by this quartet why is that so?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: snyprrr on July 06, 2009, 09:15:30 AM
Pichl???
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The new erato on July 06, 2009, 09:37:04 AM
Quote from: Mozart on July 02, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
Gurn and others, what do you know about Spech? I'm listening to a string quartet of his played by the Festetics and its good stuff :) Never heard his name before and there isn't much info on him to be found.

Im surprised how good this quartet is...I've only heard num 2 in g minor.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AV2JR2SHL.jpg)
Spech should be recorded by the Swedish Flesch Quartet.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2009, 09:44:43 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 06, 2009, 09:15:30 AM
Pichl???

What about him? I have 2 or 3 lovely symphony disks by him, but have never seen any chamber music, nor particularly SQ's...

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 06, 2009, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 06, 2009, 09:15:30 AM
Pichl???

Snyprrr - check out Gurn's thread in the old forum HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,4251.0.html) on Pichl - I just have one of those Chandos Symphony discs (thought I had obtained more!) - checking Amazon a few moments ago, still not much more, esp. of the chamber works!   :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on July 07, 2009, 11:11:37 AM
I haven't got too many Pichl works either. The Chandos symphonies CD is very pleasant (almost not unforgettable listening), and I'm happy to own one chamber composition of his, a string trio in D major. I'm afraid Pichl doesn't rank among the top composers of his time, but as a secondary composer he's a very competent one.

I'd like to remark a recent discovery: some days ago I bought a recent Naxos CD containing three violin concertos by Pierre Rode (1774-1830), linked to Beethoven's last violin sonata. I am often reticent to buy Naxos recordings, but as I didn't have anything by this composer, I decided to pick it up. Great surprise: I'd say the 7th concerto (A minor) is a hidden jewel (and the booklet points out that it was a favourite of Wieniawski), while the other two are excellent works. If anyone is interested in violin concerti of the late classical style, this should be a must (until a better version becomes available).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on July 20, 2009, 11:02:36 AM
As far as I could find this composer has only been mentioned twice: once on a cello concertos thread, the other as a joke by D Minor.  I couldn't sleep last night so I was listening to the radio and there was a fantastic trumpet concerto.  I thought who could this be?  It was clearly classical in style, but I've already re-listened to the great trumpet concerto of the classical era just a few days ago, Michael Haydn's concerto, and this was not that.  So who could this be?  At the end of the piece it was identified as Neruda's trumpet concerto.

Johann Neruda (according to wikipedia) was a classical era composer known primarly for being chief conductor of the Dresden Court Orchestra.  He wrote several concertos, symphonies and other works.  You can find his trumpet concerto, bassoon concerto, cello concertos and his trio sonatas on cd.

I found the trumpet concerto available for $.89 on amazon mp3!  If you can spare that amount, you are in for a treat. :)
http://www.amazon.com/Johann-Baptist-Georg-Neruda-Trompetenkonzert/dp/B000YYO8YQ/ (http://www.amazon.com/Johann-Baptist-Georg-Neruda-Trompetenkonzert/dp/B000YYO8YQ/)

If there are any Neruda fans out there, and you have favored recordings I would appreciate if you shared them. 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on July 20, 2009, 11:05:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 20, 2009, 11:02:36 AM
As far as I could find this composer has only been mentioned twice: once on a cello concertos thread, the other as a joke by D Minor.  I couldn't sleep last night so I was listening to the radio and there was a fantastic trumpet concerto.  I thought who could this be?  It was clearly classical in style, but I've already re-listened to the great trumpet concerto of the classical era just a few days ago, Michael Haydn's concerto, and this was not that.

You sure it wasn't Franz Joseph's?—or are you proposing that Michael really wrote Franz Joseph's music?  ;D ::) 8) 0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on July 20, 2009, 11:10:12 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 20, 2009, 11:05:23 AM
You sure it wasn't Franz Joseph's?—or are you proposing that Michael really wrote Franz Joseph's music?  ;D ::) 8) 0:)

I mean early classical era, i.e. same style as what I was hearing played on the radio.  Sorry about that.  I won't directly the compare the two works since it's pretty much apples and oranges considering the gulf between when they were written.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 20, 2009, 02:40:33 PM
Holzbauer, Ignaz (1711-1783) - Flute Concertos w/ Karl Kaiser (on a wooden reproduction) & La Stagione Frankfurt (period instruments); not much on this composer - Gurn had started a thread a few years ago (link can be found earlier in this thread) that went for just a page!

Holzbauer was Austrian and pretty much a contemporary of the elder Bach sons; his early training was in Vienna, and then to Italy; so, German/Italian influences in his music (his flute concertos reflect a lighter more atmospheric 'Vivaldian' influence).  He was then hired to 'head up' the famous Mannheim orchestra (quite a position!); the court was headed by Karl Theodor (who like Frederick the Great of the Prussian court), a flute player - thus, Holzbauer wrote a lot of varied flute compositions (of course, most yet to be re-discovered and recorded).

The only other disc that I own of his music are some Symphonies, also on the CPO label (and excellent).  The Flute Concertos on this disc are played beautifully and recorded well, as expected.  Holzbauer emphasizes the flowing melodic capabilities of the flute rather than fast pyrotechnics - quite enjoyable.  If you are a fan of 'period flute' recordings, I cannot imagine you not enjoying this disc.

Upon exploring Amazon, there is not much more available from this 'once famous' composer, except for an opera (apparently that was one of his major outputs!) - looking forward to CPO finding and recording more of his works -  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/596777317_BAFKt-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Herman on July 27, 2009, 04:25:28 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on July 20, 2009, 02:40:33 PM

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/596777317_BAFKt-M.jpg)

They flipped this picture around for the cd-cover! The woman should be facing the other direction. It is a portrait  of Mme Henriette de Verninac, sister of painter Eugene Delacroix, painted by Jean-Louis David. It's in the Paris Louvre, and I visit it every time I'm in Paris. Since it's not in the room with the big famous David pictures (Napoleon's coronation, the Rape of the Sabine Women, &c) it's always a quiet place.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 27, 2009, 09:03:00 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on July 20, 2009, 02:40:33 PM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/596777317_BAFKt-M.jpg)  (http://hoocher.com/Jacques_Louis_David/David_Portrait_of_Henriette_de_Verninac.jpg)

Quote from: Herman on July 27, 2009, 04:25:28 AM
They flipped this picture around for the cd-cover! The woman should be facing the other direction. It is a portrait  of Mme Henriette de Verninac, sister of painter Eugene Delacroix, painted by Jean-Louis David. It's in the Paris Louvre, and I visit it every time I'm in Paris. Since it's not in the room with the big famous David pictures (Napoleon's coronation, the Rape of the Sabine Women, &c) it's always a quiet place.

Herman - yes I see - included another pic above reversed; I've been to the Lourve a couple of times, but has really been a while - must have seen that original, and have always like David -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Herman on July 27, 2009, 12:26:54 PM
(http://joshthought.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/71.jpg)

Another one by Jacques-Louis David. The portrait of Mme de Recamier, with the unfinished background. This one is in the hall with the big historical paintings. It's rather funny; all the tourists (and of course I'm a tourist too) are thronging the big pictures, and usually I'm the only one looking in the other direction.

Another favorite on the "back" wall is this one:

(http://philologos.narod.ru/lotman/Vigee_Lebrun_Self_Portrait.jpg)

It's from a second-tier painter, Elizabeth Vigee Lebrun. It looks like a sentimental mom-daughter picture, but if you realize it's a self-portrait, it's a little different. Lebrun was royalist and fled to Russia duringthe Revolution.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on August 02, 2009, 11:54:41 AM
From some notes of a cd:

QuoteIn Mozart's day, the pianist not only assumed the solo part, but also that of the basso continuo.

Really? So why is it not played that way now?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2009, 12:48:45 PM
Quote from: Mozart on August 02, 2009, 11:54:41 AM
From some notes of a cd:

Really? So why is it not played that way now?

Sometimes it is. Certainly on some fortepiano recordings. The soloist will play BC during the tuttis... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 02, 2009, 02:18:10 PM
I see that the "Classical Corner" is widening its contents to include, other than classical composers, classicist paintings... ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2009, 02:22:29 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 02, 2009, 02:18:10 PM
I see that the "Classical Corner" is widening its contents to include, other than classical composers, classicist paintings... ;)

QuoteVisit us in "Gurn's Classical Corner". We discuss music, composers, instruments and other things from the Classical Era.

Well, what could I say? Nice painting! :D  How are you, mon ami?  New music lately?

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium Musicum 90 / Hickox - Hob 01 101 Symphony in D 'Clock"  2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 02, 2009, 02:27:50 PM
Well then we need to discuss cafes in 18th century Vienna!  It's crucial in our understanding of the great Viennese composers how good their coffee was, and how much they drank on a daily basis! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2009, 02:37:28 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 02, 2009, 02:27:50 PM
Well then we need to discuss cafes in 18th century Vienna!  It's crucial in our understanding of the great Viennese composers how good their coffee was, and how much they drank on a daily basis! ;D

Kaffe und Sachentorte with a pipe in the morning, then beer and little brown sausages and a pipe in the evening. The good life. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium Musicum 90 / Hickox - Hob 01 101 Symphony in D 'Clock"  4th mvmt - Finale: Vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 02, 2009, 02:43:30 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2009, 02:22:29 PM
Well, what could I say? Nice painting! :D  How are you, mon ami?  New music lately?

I've been very enthusiastic about the discovery of the Naxos recording of three of Rode's violin concertos. I also bought two other Naxos recordings of Kraus' music: a violin concerto (big but not particularly impressive) and some ballet music (wonderful music that shows a spectacular ability for orchestration, as nowhere else - as far as I know - in Kraus' production.

This reminds me of a CD with vocal music by Kraus in the Phoenix Edition label, that includes the finest recording I know of the splendid overture to Olympie.

And you, Gurn? New discoveries?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2009, 02:54:26 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 02, 2009, 02:43:30 PM
I've been very enthusiastic about the discovery of the Naxos recording of three of Rode's violin concertos. I also bought two other Naxos recordings of Kraus' music: a violin concerto (big but not particularly impressive) and some ballet music (wonderful music that shows a spectacular ability for orchestration, as nowhere else - as far as I know - in Kraus' production.

This reminds me of a CD with vocal music by Kraus in the Phoenix Edition label, that includes the finest recording I know of the splendid overture to Olympie.

And you, Gurn? New discoveries?

Sounds interesting, particularly the Rode, given my taste for violin music. I'll have to pick that one up. :)

No, not new discoveries as such, I have been concentrating for the last 2 months on assembling a Complete Haydn (without resorting to a Big Box). Once one gets past the well-known works, this task becomes incredibly difficult. But since I am stubborn I will persevere. :)  Today on eBay I acquired my first Solomons disk of his symphonies which I look forward to, but it is the divertimentos that are so difficult. Well, that's what makes things interesting. If it was simple, anyone could do it. :D

8)



----------------
Listening to: Collegium Musicum 90 / Hickox - Hob 01 102 Symphony in Bb 2nd mvmt - Adagio (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/collegium+musicum+90/track/hob+01_102+symphony+in+bb+2nd+mvmt+-+adagio)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 03:05:26 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2009, 02:54:26 PM
"... I have been concentrating for the last 2 months on assembling a Complete Haydn (without resorting to a Big Box).

Great! I'm doing something similar, Gurn. We are brave men.  ;D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2009, 02:54:26 PM
Today on eBay I acquired my first Solomons disk of his symphonies which I look forward to, but it is the divertimentos that are so difficult. Well, that's what makes things interesting. If it was simple, anyone could do it. :D

Comments will be very, very welcomed, when you listen to your Solomons. It has been mistery for me during years.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2009, 03:15:12 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 03:05:26 PM
Great! I'm doing something similar, Gurn. We are brave men.  ;D

Comments will be very, very welcomed, when you listen to your Solomons. It has been mistery for me during years.

:)

I would be interested to compare notes with you some day, Antoine. There are some real stickers in the divertimentos that are proving a challenge for me. :-\

Yes, I had read some good things about these symphonies, and when I saw a set with 35, 38, 39, 49, 58 & 59 come available, I pleased myself immensely by winning that auction. Hopefully be next weekend. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium Musicum 90 / Hickox - Hob 01 103 Symphony in Eb 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro con spirito
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 06, 2009, 05:45:42 PM
Just put a post in the Listening Thread which will likely be 'buried' w/ little if no response - so decided to quote the post below, mainly because the composer lived during the Gurian Era, and spent some of his time in Vienna in the early 19th century, and was considered the BEST guitarist of the times there; also, the performances on this 3-CD set were performed on 'period' instruments belonging to muscians/composers of renown - if you are fond of 'solo' (or 'duo') guitar and likely HEARD as back in that wondeful period of music, then is a strong consideration -  :)

QuoteGiuliani, Mauro (1781-1829) - Guitar Duos - Complete w/ Claudio Maccari & Paolo Pugliese - 3CD set from the Brilliant label - music played on 'original guitars' that belonged to Mauro Giuliani & Nicolo Paganini w/ gut strings and played according to performance techinques of the times!  BOY, if you love guitar music & HIP performances, this is a CHEAP experience - listened to the first 2 discs tongiht - just marvelous music, performances, and sound recording - RECOMMENDED!   :D

(http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/pics/Giuliani-duos-MP.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 05:58:32 PM
So they are actual guitars and not lutes? :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2009, 06:04:56 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 05:58:32 PM
So they are actual guitars and not lutes? :)

Sure, extremely popular in Vienna in the first half of the 19th century. Did you know that Stradivari made guitars too? I have a picture of one, it's gorgeous! :)

Thanks for the tip, Dave. I've seen some of his works offered, but hadn't got to getting any. No excuse now. He also has a bunch of sonatas for fortepiano and guitar, IIRC. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 42 Op 33 #6 Quartet in D 3rd mvmt - Scherzo: Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 06:08:27 PM
Huh that's interesting, I just didn't know that they made guitars that early.  That's cool. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2009, 06:10:53 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 06:08:27 PM
Huh that's interesting, I just didn't know that they made guitars that early.  That's cool. :)

Yeah, some of Schubert's Lieder are written for guitar accompaniment too. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 43 Op 42 Quartet in d 1st mvmt - Allegretto ed innocentemente
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 06, 2009, 06:11:43 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 05:58:32 PM
So they are actual guitars and not lutes? :)

David - guitars, my boy!  :D  Shown below belonged to the composer of the Brilliant set shown; the booklet contains about 3 pages of notes on mainly Italian (and also French) producers of guitars from that era; descriptions of a variety of instruments varying from 6 to 9 strings and both those w/ and w/o frets - just LOVE instrument making back in those times (maybe I should repost on my 'wooden instruments' thread?) - Dave  :)

(http://www.maccaripugliese.com/pool/files/cg_chitarra_giuliani_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 06:15:28 PM
Yup those are beautiful instruments Dave.  I wonder what they sound like?

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2009, 06:17:03 PM
How about this Strad from 1680!!!

(http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/images/kaiser1.jpg)

If you Google up Strad Rawlins guitar and check 'Images' you will see a beauty! From 1702, I think it said. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 43 Op 42 Quartet in d 2nd mvmt - Menuet
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 06:18:57 PM
Wow that looks too precious too play! :o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2009, 06:21:53 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 06:18:57 PM
Wow that looks too precious too play! :o

I wouldn't even want to touch it! I like the way they used to fill the sound hole up. Very attractive. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 43 Op 42 Quartet in d 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 06, 2009, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 06, 2009, 06:15:28 PM
Yup those are beautiful instruments Dave.  I wonder what they sound like?

Well, the guitar shown is the Gennaro Fabricatore 1809 owned by Mauro Giuliani, which is one of the number of guitars that is used in the 3-CD set shown previously; now, did you already suspect that response?   ;) :D  Dave


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 07, 2009, 03:21:04 AM
Well you can't get anymore Historically Informed than that! :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mozart on August 12, 2009, 08:20:40 PM
I'm listening to that cd of Spech string quartets again, and I can't stop wondering, why is there only 1 cd of his but 50 of Dittersdorf or others. It's really good music!

Maybe its just the playing?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 14, 2009, 02:52:34 AM
Quote from: Mozart on August 12, 2009, 08:20:40 PM
I'm listening to that cd of Spech string quartets again, and I can't stop wondering, why is there only 1 cd of his but 50 of Dittersdorf or others. It's really good music!

Maybe its just the playing?

I doubt there are 50 CDs of Dittersdorf string quartets!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 14, 2009, 02:56:56 AM
To my shame, I discovered rather late this splendid thread and I took the time to read through all the pages. I am delighted by the congenial, relaxed and witty atmosphere that reigns here (very classical-ish, so to speak :) ) and by the goldmine of information and recommendations found here. Superb job, gentlemen! Bravo!

In the same spirit I want to share with you two recently discovered Youtube channels  that in my opinion fit very well here. The music is very well organized in playlists and I think it might be of interest to you. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Meyerbeer1&view=playlists

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=18thCenturyMusic&view=playlists



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 14, 2009, 02:52:34 AM
I doubt there are 50 CDs of Dittersdorf string quartets!

Well, maybe 50 copies of that one, cpo disk... ::)

Here is a supposition though: despite the fact that Ditters is, um, less well known, nonetheless, he is famous compared to Spech. I haven't heard the Spech so I can't comment critically, but I will say this much anyway; record companies don't fund project based on the relative worth of the music, they do it based on whether they think it will sell. So let's say that a million people have heard of Mozart and might buy one copy each. Of those, maybe 10,000 have heard of Ditters and might buy one copy each. And of those, maybe 100 have heard of Spech and might buy one copy each. Throw in enough adventurers who would buy it on... Spec(h), and do the math.

I don't know, just sayin'. I don't think it's right, but I don't own a record company. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 04:30:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 14, 2009, 02:56:56 AM
To my shame, I discovered rather late this splendid thread and I took the time to read through all the pages. I am delighted by the congenial, relaxed and witty atmosphere that reigns here (very classical-ish, so to speak :) ) and by the goldmine of information and recommendations found here. Superb job, gentlemen! Bravo!

In the same spirit I want to share with you two recently discovered Youtube channels  that in my opinion fit very well here. The music is very well organized in playlists and I think it might be of interest to you. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Meyerbeer1&view=playlists

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=18thCenturyMusic&view=playlists


Well, we're delighted you could join us. Thanks for the links, we never have enough to look and listen (Classical music is like Chinese food, eat a lot and get hungry again an hour later. :) ).

Don't be a stranger. We're always here. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 04:36:14 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 14, 2009, 02:56:56 AM
To my shame, I discovered rather late this splendid thread and I took the time to read through all the pages. I am delighted by the congenial, relaxed and witty atmosphere that reigns here (very classical-ish, so to speak :) ) and by the goldmine of information and recommendations found here. Superb job, gentlemen! Bravo!

In the same spirit I want to share with you two recently discovered Youtube channels  that in my opinion fit very well here. The music is very well organized in playlists and I think it might be of interest to you. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Meyerbeer1&view=playlists

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=18thCenturyMusic&view=playlists





Oooh, that second link is great!  All kinds of stuff, from famous to obscure. Merçi beaucoup!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 14, 2009, 05:06:33 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 04:36:14 AM
Oooh, that second link is great!  All kinds of stuff, from famous to obscure. Merçi beaucoup!

You're most welcome! The first link is worth checking out as well. Have you heard Andreas Romberg's "Der Messias"? Or Norbert Burgmueller's Symphony in C minor? Lot of obscure stuff like that there.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 14, 2009, 06:03:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 14, 2009, 02:56:56 AM
In the same spirit I want to share with you two recently discovered Youtube channels  that in my opinion fit very well here. The music is very well organized in playlists and I think it might be of interest to you. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Meyerbeer1&view=playlists

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=18thCenturyMusic&view=playlists

Excellent! Thanks a lot! Just the username (in the second link) excited me, and the organisation of the videos is in itself pleasing to the eye. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 14, 2009, 09:33:16 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 04:30:39 AM
(Classical music is like Chinese food, eat a lot and get hungry again an hour later. :) ).

Gurn, what a great analogy!!  Love it.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 14, 2009, 09:42:01 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 04:30:39 AM
(Classical music is like Chinese food, eat a lot and get hungry again an hour later.

A book I recently started completed that analogy by saying that vibrato is like MSG. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 10:04:14 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 14, 2009, 09:42:01 AM
A book I recently started completed that analogy by saying that vibrato is like MSG. ;)

;D

Well, a little vibrato is a necessary thing, despite what any theorist might say. But MSG though  :P

:D

8)

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 14, 2009, 09:33:16 AM
Gurn, what a great analogy!!  Love it.  ;D

Seems like it works for both of us, then. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 16, 2009, 11:57:05 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 04:30:39 AM
Don't be a stranger. We're always here. :)

OK, you asked for it!  :D

If I may offer my two cents on the use of fortepiano, here they are.

I've always found the whole idea behind it a little problematic. Judging from all available accounts, Mozart and Beethoven constantly complained about the quality of orchestras and instruments, especially keyboards. Just imagine how delighted would have they been had they a modern piano at their disposal! Also, just fancy what could have Haydn done with a modern orchestra, comprising all the winds and brass in their present form!

So, I see no reason to reject the technical progress of instruments when playing their music. I particularly can't stand the sound of fortepiano, an aversion that has only been enhanced when listening to Antonio Rossetti's Piano Concerto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EGcPb9sWww&feature=PlayList&p=30D65B6654A16A9A&index=0): until the fortepiano came in everything was wonderful, but after the first stroke of the keyboard it was horrendous and I couldn barely made it halfway through the movement. Such a weak and impotent sound, barely audible at times, ruined all the magic for me.

To those who find merit and pleasure in the use of fortepianos, my kudos and envy! I don't think I'll ever come to terms with it. :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 04:36:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 16, 2009, 11:57:05 PM
OK, you asked for it!  :D

If I may offer my two cents on the use of fortepiano, here they are.

I've always found the whole idea behind it a little problematic. Judging from all available accounts, Mozart and Beethoven constantly complained about the quality of orchestras and instruments, especially keyboards. Just imagine how delighted would have they been had they a modern piano at their disposal! Also, just fancy what could have Haydn done with a modern orchestra, comprising all the winds and brass in their present form!

So, I see no reason to reject the technical progress of instruments when playing their music. I particularly can't stand the sound of fortepiano, an aversion that has only been enhanced when listening to Antonio Rossetti's Piano Concerto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EGcPb9sWww&feature=PlayList&p=30D65B6654A16A9A&index=0): until the fortepiano came in everything was wonderful, but after the first stroke of the keyboard it was horrendous and I couldn barely made it halfway through the movement. Such a weak and impotent sound, barely audible at times, ruined all the magic for me.

To those who find merit and pleasure in the use of fortepianos, my kudos and envy! I don't think I'll ever come to terms with it. :)



Florestan,
Well, everyone's opinion has value. I have no vested interest in trying to change your mind. I'm the first to admit that the sound of a fortepiano is an acquired taste. Some more than others. But once you have acquired that taste, nothing else quite fills the bill. :)

No, I don't play that 'imagine if...' game. I believe composers wrote to the instrument they had in hand. And made the most of it too. Somewhere (I'll find it) I have a little chart that lists all of Mozart's sonatas, and the notes used in each. In some of them, he used every single note on the keyboard, in others, all but one or two notes. So, he used what he had available. BTW, I never heard Mozart complain about instruments. He very often complained about 'wretched players', but I have yet to read anything (in many dozens of books) about instruments not being up to snuff. Beethoven, it's true, had some problems with his pianos. However, never was it with the sound of it, it was things like the compass, or the durability, or the escapement. Since your complaint is mainly with the sound, I'm afraid that neither of these stalwart composers can stand by your side.  :D

But as I say, if you don't acquire a taste for the fortepiano sound, it doesn't mean that we won't let you listen to the music. By all means, bring us something new to listen to, and we will return the favor. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 17, 2009, 04:51:44 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 04:36:41 AM
BTW, I never heard Mozart complain about instruments. He very often complained about 'wretched players', but I have yet to read anything (in many dozens of books) about instruments not being up to snuff. Beethoven, it's true, had some problems with his pianos. However, never was it with the sound of it, it was things like the compass, or the durability, or the escapement.

I'm sure that had they knew what was to come, they'd have complained about the sound, too.   ;D >:D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 04:36:41 AMSince your complaint is mainly with the sound, I'm afraid that neither of these stalwart composers can stand by your side.  :D

Fair enough.  0:).

A related aside: I discovered the wonderful Paisiello's 4th piano concerto from your recommendation here. It is played on a modern piano. What is it in there that doesn't suit the music? Is the charm and the beauty of the music really lost or altered?

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 04:36:41 AMBy all means, bring us something new to listen to, and we will return the favor. :)

8)

Speaking of which, are you aware of any recording of Rosetti's Concerto on a modern piano?  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 05:14:33 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 17, 2009, 04:51:44 AM
I'm sure that had they knew what was to come, they'd have complained about the sound, too.   ;D >:D

Doh! I hate that argument! :D

QuoteFair enough.  0:).

A related aside: I discovered the wonderful Paisiello's 4th piano concerto from your recommendation here. It is played on a modern piano. What is it in there that doesn't suit the music? Is the charm and the beauty of the music really lost or altered?

Speaking of which, are you aware of any recording of Rosetti's Concerto on a modern piano?  :)

Delighted you liked the Paisiello. I have to admit, I didn't know what to expect, but whatever it was wouldn't be too high. So I was equally pleased when I discovered it. :)   I don't know the answer to your question, since the only version I've heard is the Naxos one, thus I can't make any comparison. You shouldn't think that just because I greatly enjoy, in fact even prefer, period instruments (yes, I'm a PIon, I admit it   :-\ ), that I don't like modern instruments too. This is particularly true in orchestral music. However, in chamber music, all other things being equal (the players' abilities, for example), I will prefer the PI every time. They just sound better to me. Although I have no argument with you if you like, for example, the Beaux Arts Trio in Mozart's piano trios. They are wonderful. So are the Gryphon Trio. :)

No, I don't. I thought that one on CPO that Sonic mentioned was on modern instruments. I don't have that work myself, but maybe one of the others will see this and help out. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2009, 08:10:45 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 05:14:33 AM
Doh! I hate that argument! :D

Ah yes Rosen's argument.  It's amusing how ridiculous is to speculate about what a composer would have wanted if the composer had known about the future instruments... even the Mozart is a fraud thread was better reasoned! :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2009, 11:01:30 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2009, 08:10:45 AM
... even the Mozart is a fraud thread was better reasoned! :D

(http://www.smileydesign.net/smileys/cost10.gif) 0:) 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 17, 2009, 11:29:04 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2009, 08:10:45 AM
It's amusing how ridiculous is to speculate about what a composer would have wanted if the composer had known about the future instruments...

Well, let's take Haydn's case. Upon his own avowal, as an old man he much regretted that he came to know too late the full capabilities of winds and brass (I'm sure Gurn can find the quote in no time). Add to that the innovative spirit he manifested all throughout his life and suddenly the things are not that ridiculous, methinks.

Just my two cents.  0:)

Bottom line, to each his own. I'm sure nobody will mind me listening to Paisiello on a modern piano just as I don't mind
anyone listening to Mozart's PC 20 on fortepiano.  0:)

Now listening to Gaetano Brunetti's Symphony in G minor.  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 11:44:10 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 17, 2009, 11:29:04 AM
Well, let's take Haydn's case. Upon his own avowal, as an old man he much regretted that he came to know too late the full capabilities of winds and brass (I'm sure Gurn can find the quote in no time). Add to that the innovative spirit he manifested all throughout his life and suddenly the things are not that ridiculous, methinks.

Just my two cents.  0:)

Bottom line, to each his own. I'm sure nobody will mind me listening to Paisiello on a modern piano just as I don't mind
anyone listening to Mozart's PC 20 on fortepiano.  0:)

Now listening to Gaetano Brunetti's Symphony in G minor.  8)

Good taste. Paisiello and Brunetti. We'll make you a Corner Dweller in record time. :D

Well, Haydn did say that. He was talking about Beethoven's compositional style after hearing the 3rd symphony. Of course, Haydn didn't have those instruments to play with for most of his career anyway, so the regret is probably more for that than it is for 'overlooking' them, so to speak. I got Solomons Haydn symphonies last week, and caught the orchestration for the first time.  These are mainly the Stürm und Dräng era works, 35, 38, 39, 49, 58 & 59 which he composed from 1767-69. They are written for strings (2-2-1-1-1), 2 oboes, 4 horns & continuuo (bassoon and harpsichord). That's like 15 players. You have to wonder if he could have gotten quite the impact out of the opening of the Eroica with them... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 17, 2009, 11:19:43 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 11:44:10 AM
Good taste. Paisiello and Brunetti. We'll make you a Corner Dweller in record time. :D

Oh, but I've been dwelling in the corner ever since I've started listening classical music back in 1985. :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 11:44:10 AMWell, Haydn did say that. He was talking about Beethoven's compositional style after hearing the 3rd symphony. Of course, Haydn didn't have those instruments to play with for most of his career anyway, so the regret is probably more for that than it is for 'overlooking' them, so to speak.

Yes, that's my point: it was not a matter of "overlooking" but of a lack of availability.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2009, 11:44:10 AMI got Solomons Haydn symphonies last week, and caught the orchestration for the first time.  These are mainly the Stürm und Dräng era works, 35, 38, 39, 49, 58 & 59 which he composed from 1767-69. They are written for strings (2-2-1-1-1), 2 oboes, 4 horns & continuuo (bassoon and harpsichord). That's like 15 players. You have to wonder if he could have gotten quite the impact out of the opening of the Eroica with them... :D

Well of course he couldn't. He missed the flutes, the clarinets, the trumpets and the timpani. Now, I wonder if he missed them because there were no such players at his disposal or because their capabilities in 1769 were far behind of what they could achieve (and did) in 1804-06?

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 04:15:35 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 17, 2009, 11:29:04 AM
Well, let's take Haydn's case. Upon his own avowal, as an old man he much regretted that he came to know too late the full capabilities of winds and brass (I'm sure Gurn can find the quote in no time). Add to that the innovative spirit he manifested all throughout his life and suddenly the things are not that ridiculous, methinks.

Since he did not realize the full capabilities of wind and brass as you just said, he did not compose with them in mind, your point undermines itself and it's still ridiculous.

Whenever you say "well so and so would have loved the modern piano" it begs the obvious rebuttal he did not have a modern piano, he didn't know what it sounded like, and he didn't compose for it. 

You are talking about a convenient fiction of the composer being dissatisfied with the instruments and ensembles that he composes for.  With that logic you can argue that it would be right to change old classics to use cgi special effects ala star wars because you would say "well I bet if they had the effects then, they would have wanted to use them!"

Do you see how absurd that is now?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 04:21:10 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 17, 2009, 11:19:43 PM
Well of course he couldn't. He missed the flutes, the clarinets, the trumpets and the timpani. Now, I wonder if he missed them because there were no such players at his disposal or because their capabilities in 1769 were far behind of what they could achieve (and did) in 1804-06?

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say ridiculous.  The whole "maybe he would have wanted that way" is speculative, and not a firm foundation for anything.  It's not even an argument!  I can do that too...

Maybe Bach would have preferred his orchestral music to be transcribed to twenty harpsichords.  Hey he liked the sound of the harpsichord!  You can't say for a fact that he wouldn't approve of such a transcription, thus my performance of the Brandenburg #2 on twenty harpsichords is legitimate! :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 18, 2009, 04:33:22 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 04:15:35 AM
With that logic you can argue that it would be right to change old classics to use cgi special effects ala star wars because you would say "well I bet if they had the effects then, they would have wanted to use them!"

I never argued such a thing.  I just expressed my views based on reasonable --- for me --- assumptions, given certain facts. Of course it's all a matter of speculation and I never pretended otherwise (in case you haven't noticed there were two emoticons after the sentence starting with "I'm sure"). If it sounds absurd to you I have no problem with that. Is it really necessary to continue this controversy? I don't think so. You'll still listen to pianoforte, I'll still listen to a modern piano. The world is large enough for us to live under the same sun.  :) 0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 18, 2009, 04:44:19 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 04:21:10 AM
You can't say for a fact that [Bach] wouldn't approve of such a transcription, thus my performance of the Brandenburg #2 on twenty harpsichords is legitimate! :D

We shouldn't say that Bach disapproved at all of the practice of transcription.  He was notably efficient with his forces, though, and I doubt he would have found 20 necessary for the musical material of the BWV 1047  8)

Are we channeling Stokowski, David?  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 05:01:03 AM
Bach (J.S.) ist verboten hier... >:(

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 18, 2009, 05:11:31 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 05:01:03 AM
Bach (J.S.)* ist verboten hier... >:(

8)

This (*) precision was necessary indeed, Gurn... Otherwise we would miss some of the best music of the period! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 05:27:22 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 18, 2009, 05:11:31 AM
This (*) precision was necessary indeed, Gurn... Otherwise we would miss some of the best music of the period! ;)

:D

Yes indeed, Gabriel. Bach (J.S.) did have good seed, it seems. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 18, 2009, 05:32:31 AM
The Musical Dandelion, they called him.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 18, 2009, 05:57:29 AM
I've been craving restraint so classical and baroque have become even more appealing.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 18, 2009, 06:12:37 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 18, 2009, 05:57:29 AM
I've been craving restraint so classical and baroque have become even more appealing.

Quote from: MN Dave on August 18, 2009, 06:04:08 AM
SQUONK!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 18, 2009, 06:13:45 AM
;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 18, 2009, 06:54:39 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 05:01:03 AM
Bach (J.S.) ist verboten hier... >:(

8)

I used to like this place... >:(



;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 07:02:52 AM
Quote from: opus106 on August 18, 2009, 06:54:39 AM
I used to like this place... >:(



;)

Well, if you can make a credible argument that he is a Classical composer, without resorting to Newmanesque methods, then we'll allow him in. Otherwise, he has at least 10 threads already.... but hey, he had kids. Lot's of 'em. Pick one! :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 18, 2009, 07:33:11 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 07:02:52 AM
Well, if you can make a credible argument that he is a Classical composer

Heaven forbid, no! I'm glad he's Baroque. :D

But I can probably..., maybe attempt to give you enough reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_van_Swieten#Sharing_works_by_Bach_and_Handel) to not prevent his mention here.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 18, 2009, 08:16:47 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 07:02:52 AM
Well, if you can make a credible argument that he is a Classical composer, without resorting to Newmanesque methods, then we'll allow him in. Otherwise, he has at least 10 threads already.... but hey, he had kids. Lot's of 'em. Pick one! :D

8)

Well said.  JSB should probably just have a forum dedicated to him, or a Parent forum within "The Music Room"
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 18, 2009, 08:16:47 AM
Well said.  JSB should probably just have a forum dedicated to him, or a Parent forum within "The Music Room"

I would rather crap in Gurn's thread. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 18, 2009, 08:22:25 AM
Gurn, what's the period again? Do you count Schubert, Weber and Arriaga in or out?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 18, 2009, 08:36:12 AM
Just ordered this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kt5X5NYoL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 18, 2009, 08:41:28 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 18, 2009, 08:36:12 AM
Just ordered this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kt5X5NYoL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Sweet, Dave!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 08:41:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 18, 2009, 08:22:25 AM
Gurn, what's the period again? Do you count Schubert, Weber and Arriaga in or out?

In. I also count pre-Classical. Schubert is on the cusp, and so is Weber (well-chosen names!) but we give them the benefit of the doubt. And we like to consider how their music changed things, which is difficult if you can't talk about them... "Well, S&*^%$*# was interesting...." :D

Quote from: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 08:20:24 AM
I would rather crap in Gurn's thread. ;D

You have no shame, none at all. >:(    :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 08:43:23 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 18, 2009, 08:36:12 AM
Just ordered this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kt5X5NYoL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

I think you will be very pleased with those, Dave. I got them one at a time, took years. But I'm pleased with them even though they have been supplemented since. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 18, 2009, 08:43:56 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 18, 2009, 08:41:28 AM
Sweet, Dave!  :)

Yes, I finally dropped the cash on this one. I'm sure it will bring me much pleasure in my remaining years.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 18, 2009, 08:46:17 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 08:43:23 AM
I think you will be very pleased with those, Dave. I got them one at a time, took years. But I'm pleased with them even though they have been supplemented since. :)

8)

Yes, I've owned individual discs from this set. I think I still have one at home. If anyone wants it (in the US), let me know by PM.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 08:46:32 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 18, 2009, 08:22:25 AM
Gurn, what's the period again? Do you count Schubert, Weber and Arriaga in or out?

If you go back to the first post in the thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg278574.html#msg278574), I tried to give at least a little bit of my reasoning. Anyone is free to agree or disagree, but that's just me. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 18, 2009, 08:50:58 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 18, 2009, 08:43:56 AM
Yes, I finally dropped the cash on this one. I'm sure it will bring me much pleasure in my remaining years.

Quanto costa?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 18, 2009, 08:54:37 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 18, 2009, 08:36:12 AM
Just ordered this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kt5X5NYoL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Excellent choice! Hours of pleasure await you!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 18, 2009, 08:55:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2009, 08:50:58 AM
Quanto costa?

$89.99
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 18, 2009, 08:56:06 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 18, 2009, 08:46:17 AM
Yes, I've owned individual discs from this set. I think I still have one at home. If anyone wants it (in the US), let me know by PM.

Never mind. I have a taker.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 09:00:57 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2009, 08:43:23 AM
I think you will be very pleased with those, Dave. I got them one at a time, took years. But I'm pleased with them even though they have been supplemented since. :)

8)

I have it complete, which means I get the spurious Op 3 SQs too! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 18, 2009, 09:03:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 09:00:57 AM
I have it complete, which means I get the spurious Op 3 SQs too! ;D

Oh, that Lucchesi was busy! (http://www.smileydesign.net/smileys/cost10.gif)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 09:04:58 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2009, 09:03:15 AM
Oh, that Lucchesi was busy! (http://www.smileydesign.net/smileys/cost10.gif)

8)

Yeah it took historians along time to check those ink blots... ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 18, 2009, 09:05:44 AM
. . . an ink partly composed of olive oil . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on August 18, 2009, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: Maciek on March 09, 2009, 04:42:33 AM
Jan Tomasz Żebrowski (18th c.)
Jan Engel (?-1778)

Marcin Józef Żebrowski (1710-1780)
Maciej Kamieński (1734-1821)
Bazyli Bohdanowicz (1740-1817)
Józef Zajdler (1744-1806)

Jan Dawid Holland (1746-1827)
Jan Stefani (1746-1829)
Antoni Milwid (1755-1837)
Jan Wański (1756-1830)
Wojciech Dankowski (1760-1836)
Feliks Janiewicz (1762-1848)
Michał Ogiński (1765-1833)

Józef Elsner (1769-1854)
Antoni Radziwiłł (1775-1833)
Franciszek Lessel (1780-1838)
Karol Kurpiński (1785-1857)
Maria Szymanowska (1789-1831)
Karol Lipiński (1790-1861)
Ignacy Dobrzyński (1807-1867)

I've put together a shortish playlist of works by Polish "Gurnian" composers from the list posted earlier. It contains works by composers whose names are in red above. Plus a small piece by Maciej Radziwiłł, who wasn't really significant enough to include in my list but the piece is nice enough to add to the playlist. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9B3A3503BA9D3B53 (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9B3A3503BA9D3B53)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 18, 2009, 10:34:11 PM
Quote from: Maciek on August 18, 2009, 02:56:32 PM
I've put together a shortish playlist of works by Polish "Gurnian" composers from the list posted earlier. It contains works by composers whose names are in red above. Plus a small piece by Maciej Radziwiłł, who wasn't really significant enough to include in my list but the piece is nice enough to add to the playlist. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9B3A3503BA9D3B53 (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9B3A3503BA9D3B53)

Thank you very much!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 18, 2009, 11:53:57 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2009, 04:27:02 AM
For me, the entire period from the end of the Period of Polyphony (Baroque, if you will) to the beginning of the Period of Cacophony, in other words, the Period of Homophony, Melody and Tonality, constitutes a single age. If you were inclined to label it, and wanted to call it something that people could relate to, then "Classico-Romantic" would work. The musical style trends swing back and forth throughout the period, sometimes more light and elegant, sometimes more dense and textured, but always within certain boundaries, like tonality and homophony. :)

Very interesting Gurn, but this would extend the upper limit of your timeframe much further than 1830. Mendelssohn, Schumann, Chopin, Brahms, Dvorak, Grieg, Tchaikovsky (to mention but a few names) certainly fall within those boundaries. Even Rachmaninoff!

Where do you draw the line then?

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on August 19, 2009, 12:37:35 AM
I think for Gurn those composers already fall into the Period of Cacophony. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2009, 04:39:29 AM
To think I'd live to see the phrase "Polish Gurnian"  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 05:36:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2009, 04:39:29 AM
To think I'd live to see the phrase "Polish Gurnian"  ;D

Karl, you just never know the wonders you'll see when you start hanging around on The Corner... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 05:38:34 AM
It is now time for a list of Gurn's top 100 "classical" recordings.  0:)

So, here it is...!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 07:40:14 AM
...  :'(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 07:42:10 AM
Quote from: HM Dave on August 19, 2009, 07:40:14 AM
...  :'(

Must be patient, Grasshopper... ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 07:42:52 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 07:42:10 AM
Must be patient, Grasshopper... ;)

8)

Oh, you're going to do it? Yes!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 07:46:40 AM
Quote from: HM Dave on August 19, 2009, 07:42:52 AM
Oh, you're going to do it? Yes!

I'll try to. It's a big job, and I will get harpooned from all sides, but screw 'em...

How about 100 favorite works? :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 07:47:26 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 07:46:40 AM
I'll try to. It's a big job, and I will get harpooned from all sides, but screw 'em...

How about 100 favorite works? :)

8)

That works.   Thanks!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 19, 2009, 08:00:58 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 07:46:40 AM
How about 100 favorite works? :)

8)

OK, will do!  ;D  Mine will include Pre and Post Gurnian Era works.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 08:09:49 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 19, 2009, 08:00:58 AM
OK, will do!  ;D  Mine will include Pre and Post Gurnian Era works.  :D

NO! Those eras exist only in your head. ::)

:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 19, 2009, 08:12:11 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 19, 2009, 08:00:58 AM
OK, will do!  ;D  Mine will include Pre and Post Gurnian Era works.  :D

Speaking of which: Gurn, may I kindly remind you of my previous inquiry (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg346565.html#msg346565)?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2009, 08:12:31 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 07:46:40 AM
I'll try to. It's a big job, and I will get harpooned from all sides, but screw 'em...

Right; can't please everyone.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 07:46:40 AM
How about 100 favorite works? :)

8)

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 19, 2009, 08:00:58 AM
OK, will do!  ;D  Mine will include Pre and Post Gurnian Era works.  :D


Absolutely, Ray.  I'm sure I've heard 100 works from The Gurn Age, but I can't be sworn that I remember 100 of 'em, let alone remember sufficient that I can whittle them down to 100 favorites  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 19, 2009, 08:16:49 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 19, 2009, 08:00:58 AM
OK, will do!  ;D  Mine will include Pre and Post Gurnian Era works.  :D

Yes I think 99/100 being Bach would be balanced. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 08:17:51 AM
I await the Gurnian version.  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2009, 08:18:56 AM
Yes, the Word of Gurn is worth awaiting  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 09:41:49 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 19, 2009, 08:12:11 AM
Speaking of which: Gurn, may I kindly remind you of my previous inquiry (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg346565.html#msg346565)?

Oh, I haven't forgotten. It's a busy day at work, and the people who pay me ungodly sums of money to be here want something from me in exchange. This evening, at my leisure though... :)

BTW, the names on that particular list are quite revealing of how your mind works. None can be dismissed lightly... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 19, 2009, 08:12:11 AM
Speaking of which: Gurn, may I kindly remind you of my previous inquiry (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg346565.html#msg346565)?

Nice inquiry!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 19, 2009, 09:49:06 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 09:41:49 AM
Oh, I haven't forgotten. It's a busy day at work, and the people who pay me ungodly sums of money to be here want something from me in exchange. This evening, at my leisure though... :)

Ok, take all the time you need.  :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 09:41:49 AM
BTW, the names on that particular list are quite revealing of how your mind works. None can be dismissed lightly... :)

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:10:25 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 19, 2009, 09:49:06 AM
Ok, take all the time you need.  :)

;D


Here is a quick and only modestly inspired idea of how I think about this era. Hope it makes any sense at all... :-\

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ClassicoRomantic.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:18:55 AM
What does the y-axis represent?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:23:44 AM
Quote from: opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:18:55 AM
What does the y-axis represent?


Nothing really. It is just the overall number of works as a fixed value. If it was accurate, the left side would be far higher than the right side, but I didn't intend to go down that road, at least not yet... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on August 19, 2009, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:10:25 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ClassicoRomantic.jpg)

That's fantastic, Gurn!  Seems right to me.  Certainly the issue isn't black-and-white as most make it, but a progression like so.  I'll keep this graph in mind in case I need to use it at some point!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:25:38 AM
Ookay...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:28:55 AM
Quote from: opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:25:38 AM
Ookay...

You don't seem convinced. Care to expound? :)

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on August 19, 2009, 10:24:53 AM
That's fantastic, Gurn!  Seems right to me.  Certainly the issue isn't black-and-white as most make it, but a progression like so.  I'll keep this graph in mind in case I need to use it at some point!  :)

Thanks, Sorin. I think all the so-called periods of art must be this way rather than a liner, fixed boundary. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:28:55 AM
You don't seem convinced. Care to expound? :)

I think I'm trying to over analyse it... a mild case of snypprosis, I think it's called. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 19, 2009, 10:37:33 AM
Quote from: opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:34:00 AM
I think I'm trying to over analyse it... a mild case of snypprosis, I think it's called. ;)

;D ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 19, 2009, 10:38:20 AM
I'm thinking that Snyprrr is an Archaelogist by trade?  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:43:15 AM
Quote from: opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:34:00 AM
I think I'm trying to over analyse it... a mild case of snypprosis, I think it's called. ;)

No, don't do that. It's only a time line with a second dimension added to depict prevalent style at the time. Nothing more. I'm not really clever enough to come up with something really cool. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:44:30 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 19, 2009, 10:38:20 AM
I'm thinking that Snyprrr is an Archaelogist by trade?  :)

Excavating the dark catacombs under the Amazon Marketplace building, where all the one-timers are buried.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:45:43 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:43:15 AM
No, don't do that. It's only a time line with a second dimension added to depict prevalent style at the time. Nothing more.

Gotcha. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 10:47:35 AM
"Gurn's Post-Gurnian Era Tonalists by Gurn Blanston"

Get on that too.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 19, 2009, 10:49:29 AM
How about Gurn's favorite atonalists list? ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:51:07 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 19, 2009, 10:47:35 AM
"Gurn's Post-Gurnian Era Tonalists by Gurn Blanston"

Get on that too.

Boy, there's some nice ones on that list. I like about half the composers in the 19th century, so I guess they'd all make it. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 10:52:00 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 19, 2009, 10:49:29 AM
How about Gurn's favorite atonalists list? ;D

When they talk about making the short list, that'll be this one... ;D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 10:52:46 AM
Navneeth,

You got it. Heh.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 10:53:19 AM
Has Gurn even ventured forth into the 20th century to find tonalism?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:54:19 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 19, 2009, 10:52:46 AM
Navneeth,

You got it. Heh.

Huh? What?


:D

Anyway, the following is the list (I deleted):




Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 10:55:06 AM
Quote from: opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:54:19 AM
Huh? What?


:D

Anyway, the following is the list (I deleted):






Stop trying to confuse me.  >:(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 19, 2009, 10:55:46 AM
;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 11:46:09 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 19, 2009, 10:53:19 AM
Has Gurn even ventured forth into the 20th century to find tonalism?

Sure. Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Bartok (sorta tonal), Bloch, Rachmaninoff, several others of that persuasion. We are not barbarians, Dave... :)

Also we are quite fond of Stravinsky and R. Strauss, although we wouldn't want it bandied about... ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on August 19, 2009, 11:53:21 AM
Do I detect a whiff of sydneygrewism?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 19, 2009, 11:53:31 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 11:46:09 AM
Sure. Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Bartok (sorta tonal), Bloch, Rachmaninoff, several others of that persuasion. We are not barbarians, Dave... :)

Also we are quite fond of Stravinsky and R. Strauss, although we wouldn't want it bandied about... ;)

8)

Hm. I'll take Rachmaninoff out of that bunch.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2009, 12:07:54 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 19, 2009, 10:53:19 AM
Has Gurn even ventured forth into the 20th century to find tonalism?

Gurn has heard music of the 21st century! He even likes some of it!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2009, 12:08:33 PM
Quote from: Maciek on August 19, 2009, 11:53:21 AM
Do I detect a whiff of sydneygrewism?

Thought it was getting a little punky in here  ;D 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 12:21:28 PM
Quote from: Maciek on August 19, 2009, 11:53:21 AM
Do I detect a whiff of sydneygrewism?

;D

More than a whiff, a positive stink. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 19, 2009, 11:53:31 AM
Hm. I'll take Rachmaninoff out of that bunch.

Not a bad choice. You might give Bloch a try, something like his concert piece for cello & orchestra (Solomon (Schelomo)). Very nice. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 12:23:23 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2009, 12:07:54 PM
Gurn has heard music of the 21st century! He even likes some of it!

Sad but true. Post-Gurnian in the extreme  :o :o

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on August 19, 2009, 01:02:45 PM
He has actually listened to a certain Pawel Szymanski piece TWICE! :o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on August 19, 2009, 01:07:52 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 18, 2009, 08:20:24 AM
I would rather crap in Gurn's thread. ;D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 12:21:28 PM
;D

More than a whiff, a positive stink. :D

8)

Oh, the stuff people miss by staying away from this thread...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 19, 2009, 01:11:50 PM
Quote from: Maciek on August 19, 2009, 01:07:52 PM
Oh, the stuff people miss by staying away from this thread...

That was a great convenient alignment. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2009, 05:11:59 PM
Well, a number of pages back Gurn brought up the composer below w/o much response - there is a thread on Vanhal that has not received much 'serious' attention, so tonight I left a post (quoted below) in that thread after receiving a 'new' recording of Piano Quintets by him today - thought that those on the Gurn Classical Thread might be interested - Dave  :)

Quote from: SonicMan on August 19, 2009, 04:44:48 PM
Well, time to get this thread back on track, esp. since I've just received an excellent disc of his Piano Quintets, described later:

Johann Baptist Vanhal (1739-1813), born in Bohemia and trained early by local muscians; because of his excellent violin playing he was taken to Vienna in the early 1760s and given lessons by Dittersdorf; he eventually was well accepted into Viennese society as a performer, composer, and conductor; as Poju stated in a post, he was certainly one of the early muscians to make a comfortable living without the need of royal patronage.  Another 'claim to fame' is that he was often a member of the probably the most famous Quartet of the Era, i.e. often playing w/ Mozart, Haydn, & Dittersdorf - BOY, can you imagine just being there!  8)

In the old forum, Gurn started a Vanhal Thread, which just went for a few pages (I was there along w/ others); not too many recommendations made but a short bio given; for those interested, check out the bios on Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Baptist_Vanhal) and on Naxos (http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/Johann_Baptist_Vanhal/21127.htm) - despite his obscurity now, he was a well known & respected 'all around' musician in Vienna at the height of its classical glory!

Vanhal was a prolific composer - just a short quote from the Wiki article 'and attributed to him are 100 quartets, at least 73 symphonies, 95 sacred works, and a large number of instrumental and vocal works' - plenty of chamber music!  Personally, I now own just a half dozen discs of Vanhal's music:  Symphonies on Naxos & Chandos (more releases have been made on Naxos); Oboe Quartets on Helios w/ Sarah Francis; Double Bass Concertos on Hyperion (w/ Dittersdorf; not thrilled w/ this disc); and String Quartets w/ Kubin Quartet on Ceska - HEY, I'm just scratching the surface!  :-\

My most recent Vanhal acquisition is shown below, i.e. Piano Quintets, Op. 12 w/ Miklos Spanyi on fortepiano & Authentic Quartet on period instruments; excellent review recently in the last issue of the American Record Guide - on first listen this is an outstanding production; Spanyi is superb on the fortepiano & the recorded sound well done.

If you are interested in music of this period, then this is a composer to explore seriously -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/624682496_boChN-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 05:16:32 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on August 19, 2009, 05:11:59 PM
Well, a number of pages back Gurn brought up the composer below w/o much response - there is a thread on Vanhal that has not received much 'serious' attention, so tonight I left a post (quoted below) in that thread after receiving a 'new' recording of Piano Quintets by him today - thought that those on the Gurn Classical Thread might be interested - Dave  :)


Crikey, Dave, that looks like a nice disk! Can I take it out for a spin? :D  Vanhal is not particularly noted (probably for no good reason) for his keyboard works, scarcely any of them have been recorded (as I discovered a couple of years ago when I looked for solo sonatas). So this might be as close as I can get. Thanks for the tip. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Malcolm Binns - Op 101 Sonata #28 in A for Fortepiano 3rd mvmt - Langsam und sensuchtvoll - Zeitmass der ersten nicht zu sehr, und mit Entschlossenheit
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: Florestan on August 18, 2009, 11:53:57 PM
Very interesting Gurn, but this would extend the upper limit of your timeframe much further than 1830. Mendelssohn, Schumann, Chopin, Brahms, Dvorak, Grieg, Tchaikovsky (to mention but a few names) certainly fall within those boundaries. Even Rachmaninoff!

Where do you draw the line then?



Well, quite early on in this thread, I made the rather controversial remark that I didn't believe there was or should be a separation between the Classical and the Romantic. I didn't get any takers on some sort of debate of the issue, and it slipped away. But here is my take anyway.

On musicological grounds it can't be justified. And even from an art history perspective, Romanticism was a literary movement, not a musical one. In Germany, there were many musicians who attempted to apply Romantic attitudes to music, and wrote lengthy treatises about how music was merely an ultra-pure form of literature. So if Romanticism can be applied to music at all, really, it is only German Romanticism applied to German music, and then the others who tried to copy them. This was a time that was far more a Nationalistic Music Era than anything else. The true classicists were trying to make a universal music (when he went to England, Haydn is quoted as saying that he wasn't concerned about not speaking English, his music spoke to everyone for him...). Classicism made a conscious attempt to NOT be 'national', but to be appreciable to all nationalities. It was only in the second half of the 19th century that one begins hearing (with a vengeance) about German, Italian and French music styles again. In my little 'time line' that I posted earlier, the point I am really trying to make with 'classical' and 'romantic' there is more about absolute or representative music than it is about anything structural in the music itself. Chromaticism and harmonic structure, more or less formal structure in the music itself (sonata form), these things are evolutionary, not revolutionary.  The earlier forms of sonata-allegro, dominant-tonic-dominant etc. moved on and became more complex, just like any other system. In physical systems it is called entropy; chaos increases with complexity. So even though you had a steady lineage of great composers, many of whom you named (and it's no coincidence that they are among my favorite Late Classical composers either) like Mendelssohn, Brahms and Dvorak who tried to pull music back to the simplicity of the more nearly Classical times, the natural inertia of change was continually and inexorably pulling it forward. Until it, like any physical system, collapsed in on itself around the end of the 19th century and homophony supported by tonality ceased to be a viable system any more. I don't discount the few troglodytes of the 20th century who attempted a comeback, but let's face facts: time's arrow points in only one direction.

Sorry for the long paragraph, I had all this stuff in my head and it came out in a rush. Bet you're sorry you asked now. :D

8)



----------------
Listening to:
Malcolm Binns - Op 106 Sonata #29 in Bb for Fortepiano 3rd mvmt - Adagio sostenuto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Maciek on August 20, 2009, 12:13:56 AM
What about Chopin? "National", tonal, not German and first half 19th c.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 20, 2009, 12:26:52 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
Sorry for the long paragraph, I had all this stuff in my head and it came out in a rush. Bet you're sorry you asked now. :D

Keep the money in your pocket, you need it for new acquisitions!  :)
This is a very thoughtful post which invites careful consideration.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
On musicological grounds it can't be justified. And even from an art history perspective, Romanticism was a literary movement, not a musical one. In Germany, there were many musicians who attempted to apply Romantic attitudes to music, and wrote lengthy treatises about how music was merely an ultra-pure form of literature. So if Romanticism can be applied to music at all, really, it is only German Romanticism applied to German music, and then the others who tried to copy them.

Not sure I can agree without qualifications. The way I see it, Romanticism --- I apply this term in its musical embodiment (let's pretend, for the sake of discussion, that musical Romanticism did exist) --- had two undercurrents: one "conservative", represented by the lineage (Schubert)-Schumann-Mendelssohn-Chopin-Brahms-Dvorak and their followers, which balanced the "Literary" approach to music with the "Classical" one (or, as in the case of Chopin and Brahms, rejected it alltogether), and one "radical", represented by the lineage Berlioz-Liszt-Wagner-Mahler and their followers, which rejected firmly the "Classical" approach and developed the "Literary" one. Interestingly enough, both pretended to build upon Beethoven's legacy.

(Of course, this is just a simplistic scheme: overlapping between the two camps was as common as internal quarrels and dislikes within them: Liszt and Schumann were in friendly terms all along, Chopin had no use for Schumann, Berlioz strongly opposed any association with Wagner who in turn broke with Liszt. In all this embroglio, Bruckner stands as an isolated figure --- my opinion is that with all his penchant for Wagner's novelties, he was in his heart a "conservative").

Now, a few comments on "Literary approach".

Generally speaking, musicians of the Classical Age had little education about, and interest in, matters outside music. Haydn and Mozart themselves had no interest in poetry, philosophy or sciences. The world had to wait for Beethoven and Schubert to see composers actively interested and engaged in intellectual pursuits outside their trade.

Things changed dramatically after 1830, when a whole new generation of musicians who were much better educated and much more open, intellectually speaking, than their predecessors became active. Schumann, Berlioz, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Wagner were avid readers of poetry and philosophy or were involved in multifaceted artistic circles of painters and writers. It was inevitable that this intellectual efflorescence made its way into their music.

A telling, although unjustly harsh, comment in this respect is made by Adrian Leverkuhn, the imaginary composer from Thomas Mann's masterpiece Doktor Faustus: the main merit of Romanticism is that it took the music away from its state of communal brassband and inserted it into the general intellectual movement of the epoch. (quoted from memory).

This is not to say that the Classicists were somehow intellectually inferior to the Romantics, but it helps putting things into perspective.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
This was a time that was far more a Nationalistic Music Era than anything else.

Yes, music connected with the general spirit of the age, which was Romantic Nationalism.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 06:07:38 PMThe true classicists were trying to make a universal music (when he went to England, Haydn is quoted as saying that he wasn't concerned about not speaking English, his music spoke to everyone for him...). Classicism made a conscious attempt to NOT be 'national', but to be appreciable to all nationalities.

This is true as well. Again, music was linked with the general spirit of the age, which was Enlightenment Universalism.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
It was only in the second half of the 19th century that one begins hearing (with a vengeance) about German, Italian and French music styles again.

Yes and there emerged other styles, previously unheard of: Russian, Scandinavian etc. :) But, nationalistic intents aside, I think the music itself speaks as universally as any of the Classical Era.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
In my little 'time line' that I posted earlier, the point I am really trying to make with 'classical' and 'romantic' there is more about absolute or representative music than it is about anything structural in the music itself. Chromaticism and harmonic structure, more or less formal structure in the music itself (sonata form), these things are evolutionary, not revolutionary.  The earlier forms of sonata-allegro, dominant-tonic-dominant etc. moved on and became more complex, just like any other system. In physical systems it is called entropy; chaos increases with complexity. So even though you had a steady lineage of great composers, many of whom you named (and it's no coincidence that they are among my favorite Late Classical composers either) like Mendelssohn, Brahms and Dvorak who tried to pull music back to the simplicity of the more nearly Classical times, the natural inertia of change was continually and inexorably pulling it forward. Until it, like any physical system, collapsed in on itself around the end of the 19th century and homophony supported by tonality ceased to be a viable system any more. I don't discount the few troglodytes of the 20th century who attempted a comeback, but let's face facts: time's arrow points in only one direction.

Interesting analogy, but I have to ammend it a bit. I've seen the entropy mentioned also in the thread about classical music's death, but it's always rather incorrecly applied (the engineer in me is speaking now. :) ). The second law of thermodynamics, which is where the whole concept of entropy originates, states that entropy of an isolated system tends to increase or stay the same; it never decreases as long as the system remains isolated. And that's the key word that prevents the concept to be applied in any open system. Music as a whole is such an open system: it receives "energy" and "information' from a lot of other systems and that is why it did not die around 1850, when the "Literary approach" injected new life in it; neither did it die around 1910, when the "Schoenberg approach" injected new life in it etc, and this is why I see no reason to lament its incoming death. (I apologize for this digression)

That being said, the "Classical approach" around 1900 was certainly an isolated system (within a larger open system). No wonder it faded away. On the other hand, tonality itself wasn't, and tonal music continued far into the 20th century and not just as a relic of the past, avant-garde extremism and propaganda notwithstanding. Enescu, Prokofiev, Ravel, Bartok, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Richard Strauss, de Falla and a bunch of others cannot be dismissed as mere retrogrades.

BTW, "troglodyte" in Romanian has a completely different meaning than in English, namely "wretched, miserable, barbarian". When I first read your last sentence I was really angered to have Rachmaninoff called as such, but then I googled for the English word and calmed down. We're still friends!  0:)

And on this optimistic tone I now conclude my long post, hoping that it makes some sense to you and others here.  :)

8)





Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 20, 2009, 12:31:00 AM
Quote from: Maciek on August 20, 2009, 12:13:56 AM
What about Chopin? "National", tonal, not German and first half 19th c.

Now,  I can hardly wait Gurn's reply...  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 04:27:28 AM
Quote from: Maciek on August 20, 2009, 12:13:56 AM
What about Chopin? "National", tonal, not German and first half 19th c.

Umm... he's the exception that proves all the rules? Being Polish, he was bound to go his own way? Hard to include every anomaly in any unified theory. He was a forerunner of things in some ways, a conservative in others. I don't know, really, I don't give Chopin a lot of thought. Probably ought to.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 04:30:38 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 20, 2009, 12:31:00 AM
Now,  I can hardly wait Gurn's reply...  :)

You know that was a hard one. I didn't see YOU jumping on it. :D

I enjoyed your reply. It will await this evening before I have a chance to rebut, although I see our points of disagreement are few and far between. And some of the things you say are also things that I thought about but didn't include, although they agree with my POV. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 20, 2009, 04:46:01 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 04:30:38 AM
You know that was a hard one. I didn't see YOU jumping on it. :D

Oh, I didn't jump on it because I happen to agree with Maciek's description: Chopin is a rather strange beast, completely unclassifiable. He revered Bach and Mozart, stuck more or less to traditional forms, had only disdain for the "teutonic" Schumann, yet he is one of the pillars of Romanticism.  ???

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 04:30:38 AMI enjoyed your reply. It will await this evening before I have a chance to rebut, although I see our points of disagreement are few and far between. And some of the things you say are also things that I thought about but didn't include, although they agree with my POV. :)

I look forward to hearing from you. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 20, 2009, 05:08:18 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 04:27:28 AM
I don't give Chopin a lot of thought.

:'(

My Haydn string quartet box is coming USPS instead of UPS. Yay for me!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 20, 2009, 05:16:48 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 04:27:28 AM
I don't give Chopin a lot of thought.

Give him a lot of listening instead!  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 20, 2009, 05:18:51 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 20, 2009, 05:16:48 AM
Give him a lot of listening instead!  :D

I really love Chopin. LOVE
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 20, 2009, 05:22:07 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 20, 2009, 05:08:18 AM
:'(

My Haydn string quartet box is coming USPS instead of UPS. Yay for me!  :)

Dave - Kodaly box, I assume!  I would like to obtain a complete box of the SQs, and this offering looks like the ticket!  I have it on my 'wish list' @ MDT - being offered for $69 (plus S&H); just need to add a few more items to make the postage reasonable across the pond - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 20, 2009, 05:23:09 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on August 20, 2009, 05:22:07 AM
Dave - Kodaly box, I assume!  I would like to obtain a complete box of the SQs, and this offering looks like the ticket!  I have it on my 'wish list' @ MDT - being offered for $69 (plus S&H); just need to add a few more items to make the postage reasonable across the pond - Dave  :)

I paid $89 at Amazon.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 05:43:36 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 20, 2009, 05:16:48 AM
Give him a lot of listening instead!  :D

That's what I do. I have just, so far, not included him in my reckoning of history, since he IS rather unique. :)

Quote from: MN Dave on August 20, 2009, 05:08:18 AM
My Haydn string quartet box is coming USPS instead of UPS. Yay for me!  :)

Yay for you indeed. Hope it comes soon. Are you planning on starting at the beginning, the end or at random?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 20, 2009, 05:45:20 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 05:43:36 AM
Are you planning on starting at the beginning, the end or at random?  :)

Good question. I have no idea. I never know what I'm going to do. It's interesting that way.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 05:55:49 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 20, 2009, 05:45:20 AM
...I never know what I'm going to do...

Huh, I thought it was just ME that never knew what you were going to do... :D

Hey, random is good too. Better in fact. Since they were released that way and I bought them that way, that's the way I learned them too. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 20, 2009, 05:57:17 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 05:55:49 AM
Huh, I thought it was just ME that never knew what you were going to do... :D

Hey, random is good too. Better in fact. Since they were released that way and I bought them that way, that's the way I learned them too. :)

8)

I really doubt I can make it through a box this size before setting it aside.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 20, 2009, 06:05:59 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 20, 2009, 05:57:17 AM
I really doubt I can make it through a box this size before setting it aside.

I've sure taken my sweet time with the symphonies.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 20, 2009, 06:08:54 AM
Okay, here's how it works:

Dave gets a box set. He either rips all, some or none of it, depending on time and inclination. If it happens to get ripped, it may end up on his iPod for work purposes, depending on his mood. If a particular piece is brought into focus through message boards or magazines, whatever, he will pull it up and listen to it. Otherwise, it's a free-for-all.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 20, 2009, 06:13:28 AM
I'm on a work-from-home routine tomorrow;  probably I'll pop in the next Haydn symphnoy disc for First-Listen Friday.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 20, 2009, 06:49:19 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 20, 2009, 06:13:28 AM
I'm on a work-from-home routine tomorrow;  probably I'll pop in the next Haydn symphnoy disc for First-Listen Friday.

Where are you at in the cycle?  You should have been done by now.  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 20, 2009, 06:58:02 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 20, 2009, 06:49:19 AM
Where are you at in the cycle?  You should have been done by now.  ;D ;)

Tu as raison, mon cher.  I am not really making the grade as a Haydn enthusiast!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 20, 2009, 08:11:10 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 20, 2009, 06:08:54 AM
Okay, here's how it works:

Dave gets a box set. He either rips all, some or none of it, depending on time and inclination. If it happens to get ripped, it may end up on his iPod for work purposes, depending on his mood. If a particular piece is brought into focus through message boards or magazines, whatever, he will pull it up and listen to it. Otherwise, it's a free-for-all.

I bought it on mp3 just so that I wouldn't have to rip it. :)  Which is funny now because I don't listen to music at work anymore! :D  But it made sense at the time. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: Florestan on August 20, 2009, 12:26:52 AM
Keep the money in your pocket, you need it for new acquisitions!  :)
This is a very thoughtful post which invites careful consideration.

Not sure I can agree without qualifications. The way I see it, Romanticism --- I apply this term in its musical embodiment (let's pretend, for the sake of discussion, that musical Romanticism did exist) --- had two undercurrents: one "conservative", represented by the lineage (Schubert)-Schumann-Mendelssohn-Chopin-Brahms-Dvorak and their followers, which balanced the "Literary" approach to music with the "Classical" one (or, as in the case of Chopin and Brahms, rejected it alltogether), and one "radical", represented by the lineage Berlioz-Liszt-Wagner-Mahler and their followers, which rejected firmly the "Classical" approach and developed the "Literary" one. Interestingly enough, both pretended to build upon Beethoven's legacy.

Yes. I have always imagined 'Romanticism' (learned that from Newman. Like it? :D ) was split into two parts. I would start the Berlioz fork with Weber, but this is more or less it. In my post, I called them absolute and representational, this being the representational branch. They were busy illustrating books with their music. :)  FYI, and apropos of nothing whatsoever, this is the branch that I mainly dislike and rarely listen to. It is mainly the absolute music/Classical line that I was talking about in terms of expanding the form and adding to the complexity. It was a natural evolution of sonata form.

Quote(Of course, this is just a simplistic scheme: overlapping between the two camps was as common as internal quarrels and dislikes within them: Liszt and Schumann were in friendly terms all along, Chopin had no use for Schumann, Berlioz strongly opposed any association with Wagner who in turn broke with Liszt. In all this embroglio, Bruckner stands as an isolated figure --- my opinion is that with all his penchant for Wagner's novelties, he was in his heart a "conservative").

Now, a few comments on "Literary approach".

Generally speaking, musicians of the Classical Age had little education about, and interest in, matters outside music. Haydn and Mozart themselves had no interest in poetry, philosophy or sciences. The world had to wait for Beethoven and Schubert to see composers actively interested and engaged in intellectual pursuits outside their trade.

Yes, certainly there was no purism in either camp. We like to think pure art for art's sake, but there was the commercial aspect looming, and bigger than ever once the "canon of works" became the tyrant of creativity. I have to clear up one injustice in your literary statement though. Just to show the dangers of generalization. ;)  I have an annotated list of the contents of Haydn's library taken at his death. You might be overwhelmed by it, as I was.

A History of the World in 99 volumes (Haydn had 65 of them)
The first 78 volumes of the Encyclopedia of Economics (the remainder to Volume 155 weren't published until after his death)
General History of Music by Charles Burney (I would like that myself)
The first ever German dictionary (in 5 volumes)
The Plays of Shakespeare (10 volumes)
Capt. James Cook's "Complete Journal of Voyages Round the World"
The Revelation of Nature by Cardano - 17 volumes.

This only scratches the surface, I'm already tired of typing it. :)  I agree with you about Mozart. He was not insensitive to the workld around him, but he had priorities, and literature and philosophy were not nearly s high on the list as writing music and supporting his family, and maybe playing billiards. ;)  OK, now back to you... :)


QuoteThings changed dramatically after 1830, when a whole new generation of musicians who were much better educated and much more open, intellectually speaking, than their predecessors became active. Schumann, Berlioz, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Wagner were avid readers of poetry and philosophy or were involved in multifaceted artistic circles of painters and writers. It was inevitable that this intellectual efflorescence made its way into their music.

A telling, although unjustly harsh, comment in this respect is made by Adrian Leverkuhn, the imaginary composer from Thomas Mann's masterpiece Doktor Faustus: the main merit of Romanticism is that it took the music away from its state of communal brassband and inserted it into the general intellectual movement of the epoch. (quoted from memory).

Yes, even the 'classicists' were influenced by literature, it was the thing to be at the time. Many of them also wrote at length (e.g. - Schumann and Mendelssohn). So there was an inevitability about literature and music blending together, the main difference was the degree to which a composer could keep separation there. IMO, Brahms was a master of that. He let the writers write and the composers compose.

QuoteThis is not to say that the Classicists were somehow intellectually inferior to the Romantics, but it helps putting things into perspective.

Yes, music connected with the general spirit of the age, which was Romantic Nationalism.

This is true as well. Again, music was linked with the general spirit of the age, which was Enlightenment Universalism.

Yes and there emerged other styles, previously unheard of: Russian, Scandinavian etc. :) But, nationalistic intents aside, I think the music itself speaks as universally as any of the Classical Era.

Well, it does because that's how we choose to listen to it. But if we were to transport ourselves back to the time when it was being written and listened to, I think the composers (particularly the representational branch) had different expectations of their audience, and wanted them to hear things in the way that they were composed, and transmit those concrete ideas to them. Otherwise, it would be absolute music too. The German composers were speaking German to their German audiences, and they didn't really care if non-Germans 'got it'. And too, the French. The non-Wagnerian French, that is. :)

QuoteInteresting analogy, but I have to amend it a bit. I've seen the entropy mentioned also in the thread about classical music's death, but it's always rather incorrecly applied (the engineer in me is speaking now. :) ). The second law of thermodynamics, which is where the whole concept of entropy originates, states that entropy of an isolated system tends to increase or stay the same; it never decreases as long as the system remains isolated. And that's the key word that prevents the concept to be applied in any open system. Music as a whole is such an open system: it receives "energy" and "information' from a lot of other systems and that is why it did not die around 1850, when the "Literary approach" injected new life in it; neither did it die around 1910, when the "Schoenberg approach" injected new life in it etc, and this is why I see no reason to lament its incoming death. (I apologize for this digression)

That being said, the "Classical approach" around 1900 was certainly an isolated system (within a larger open system). No wonder it faded away. On the other hand, tonality itself wasn't, and tonal music continued far into the 20th century and not just as a relic of the past, avant-garde extremism and propaganda notwithstanding. Enescu, Prokofiev, Ravel, Bartok, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Richard Strauss, de Falla and a bunch of others cannot be dismissed as mere retrogrades.

Well, not being an engineer, and having a huge interest in thing like evolution, I learned about entropy while studying that, so my vision of it is less than strict. But evolution of species and evolution of music are analogous in many ways. If you look back to pre-Renaissance times you see that musical styles were developed, and they matured and got more and more complex (harmony for 40 parts!) and then there was an abrupt change to where something that had been developing in a small way on the side was seen as superior, and the whole complex system would go down and become a relic and the new idea would grow. Like when Baroque polyphony reached its peak and the reaction was to take italian opera homophony and make it as simple as possible (galant) and that grew into Classicism. And so on and so on. Cyclical. :)

QuoteBTW, "troglodyte" in Romanian has a completely different meaning than in English, namely "wretched, miserable, barbarian". When I first read your last sentence I was really angered to have Rachmaninoff called as such, but then I googled for the English word and calmed down. We're still friends!  0:)

And on this optimistic tone I now conclude my long post, hoping that it makes some sense to you and others here.  :)

8)

:D  Yes, I was using it in the English sense of being a throwback, a Luddite, a caveman when all the other cavemen have died off. I would never call Rach a wretched, miserable barbarian (unless he pissed me off, of course ;D ).

Anyway, I see we have more points on which we agree than on which we disagree. I don't suppose that I need to tell you that it is one of my great "pet peeves" to have people wasting their precious time trying to decide on whether or not composer X is Classical or Romantic. ::)  Better to listen to the music. Those terms are virtually impossible to define within the context of music itself, so settling those arguments is just not going to happen. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Malcolm Binns - Op 101 Sonata #28 in A for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Elwas lebhaft und mit der innigsten Empfindung
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 20, 2009, 06:38:42 PM
I only find classification of composers important for the purpose of my spreadsheet.  Overall constant attempts to define eras is a waste of time.  Just because there is an obvious global transition when you compare one century to another doesn't mean that one has to pretend that there clean delineations between music styles.  It goes from one type to another so slowly that the difference is only obvious in hindsight.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 21, 2009, 03:58:08 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 20, 2009, 06:38:42 PM
I only find classification of composers important for the purpose of my spreadsheet.  Overall constant attempts to define eras is a waste of time.

But don't you feel that Pelléas et Mélisande is the last glorious afterglow of the Waaagnerian Era, rather than, as Murgatroyd Pippin-Chandler claims in his monograph, the first 'modernist' opera?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 21, 2009, 04:20:02 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2009, 06:29:41 PM
I have to clear up one injustice in your literary statement though. Just to show the dangers of generalization. ;)  I have an annotated list of the contents of Haydn's library taken at his death. You might be overwhelmed by it, as I was.

A History of the World in 99 volumes (Haydn had 65 of them)
The first 78 volumes of the Encyclopedia of Economics (the remainder to Volume 155 weren't published until after his death)
General History of Music by Charles Burney (I would like that myself)
The first ever German dictionary (in 5 volumes)
The Plays of Shakespeare (10 volumes)
Capt. James Cook's "Complete Journal of Voyages Round the World"
The Revelation of Nature by Cardano - 17 volumes.

This only scratches the surface, I'm already tired of typing it. :)

Wow, this is indeed a revelation! Where did you find that list?

I stand corrected, and gladly so. It's an extremely pleasant surprise for me that Haydn had such wide interests besides music (provided he read those books, of course.  ;D ).

Now, this exchange started from my question about drawing the boundaries of the "classical corner". Is it safe then to conclude that Mendelssohn-Chopin-Schumann-Brahms is a legitimate territorial claim? :)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 21, 2009, 04:24:05 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 21, 2009, 03:58:08 AM
But don't you feel that Pelléas et Mélisande is the last glorious afterglow of the Waaagnerian Era, rather than, as Murgatroyd Pippin-Chandler claims in his monograph, the first 'modernist' opera?

Makes Wagner sound like a nuclear bomb. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2009, 04:25:13 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2009, 04:20:02 AM
Wow, this is indeed a revelation! Where did you find that list?

I stand corrected, and gladly so. It's an extremely pleasant surprise for me that Haydn had such wide interests besides music (provided he read those books, of course.  ;D ).

"Haydn and his World" edited by Elaine Sisman. There is an entire essay on his library, of which that came off page 1. He read a lot of them because he made marginal notes. :)

QuoteNow, this exchange started from my question about drawing the boundaries of the "classical corner". Is it safe then to conclude that Mendelssohn-Chopin-Schumann-Brahms is a legitimate territorial claim? :)

Oh, absolutely. They are from the Late Classical, the period immediately following the Latest Gurnian. Of course, Mendelssohn and Chopin were composing in the 1820's, so we never lost them anyway. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 21, 2009, 04:27:45 AM
Maybe we should just call it Gurn's Industrial Revolution Music.  Or music to revolutionize an industry by... gets the chronology about right. :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2009, 04:29:52 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 20, 2009, 06:38:42 PM
I only find classification of composers important for the purpose of my spreadsheet.  Overall constant attempts to define eras is a waste of time.  Just because there is an obvious global transition when you compare one century to another doesn't mean that one has to pretend that there clean delineations between music styles.  It goes from one type to another so slowly that the difference is only obvious in hindsight.

Everything is labeled in hindsight. It makes it easier to get it into the liner notes... ::)  I think that my 3 main divisions, given earlier in this thread, are sufficient for all practical purposes. And they have the added bonus of not carrying any other philosophical baggage, they are merely descriptive of the prevailing musical style. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 21, 2009, 04:39:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2009, 04:25:13 AM
"Haydn and his World" edited by Elaine Sisman. There is an entire essay on his library, of which that came off page 1. He read a lot of them because he made marginal notes. :)

I was hoping for that.  :) Very nice, thanks for the info!  0:)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2009, 04:25:13 AMOh, absolutely. They are from the Late Classical, the period immediately following the Latest Gurnian. Of course, Mendelssohn and Chopin were composing in the 1820's, so we never lost them anyway. :)

Excellent!  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 22, 2009, 09:21:20 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2009, 04:39:53 AM
I was hoping for that.  :) Very nice, thanks for the info!  0:)

Excellent!  8)


Replies 701, 703 and 723 are real gems; they are full of ideas, some intuitions and odd/delightful information.

Congratulations Florestan and Gurn! I have enjoyed every word.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2009, 10:08:10 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 22, 2009, 09:21:20 AM

Replies 701, 703 and 723 are real gems; they are full of ideas, some intuitions and odd/delightful information.

Congratulations Florestan and Gurn! I have enjoyed every word.

:)


Well, thanks, Antoine. I'm pleased you found it interesting. Clearly it is something of importance to us, enough to have thought about it for a while. I invite you to share some thoughts about it if you would like to. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2009, 11:16:25 AM
Quote from: James on August 22, 2009, 10:39:35 AM
Gurn, just curious have you heard any of Stravinsky's neo-classical work, like Pulcinella?

My total listening of Stravinsky equals;

The Firebird
Rite of Spring
Oedipus Rex
Petrouchka
Symphony of Psalms
3 pieces for Clarinet

Thus, not enough to categorize his periods, so to speak. FWIW, I enjoyed all of those. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Maria Joao Pires / Hüseyin Sermet - Schubert Rondo in D for Piano 4 Hands D 608 - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 22, 2009, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2009, 11:16:25 AM
My total listening of Stravinsky equals;

The Firebird
Rite of Spring
Oedipus Rex
Petrouchka
Symphony of Psalms
3 pieces for Clarinet

Thus, not enough to categorize his periods, so to speak. FWIW, I enjoyed all of those. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Maria Joao Pires / Hüseyin Sermet - Schubert Rondo in D for Piano 4 Hands D 608 - Allegretto

You do not have the Dumbarton Oaks Concerto!?!  Epic Fail!! >:(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2009, 11:34:18 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 22, 2009, 11:29:18 AM
You do not have the Dumbarton Oaks Concerto!?!  Epic Fail!! >:(

And yet, I've survived somehow. :)  To balance it out, I DO have the complete works of Schubert for Piano 4 Hands. ;)  One doesn't need to have heard a composer's entire oeuvre to decide if that is where his specialty lies... :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Maria Joao Pires / Hüseyin Sermet - Schubert 2 German Dances in G for Piano 4 Hands D 618
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 22, 2009, 11:39:48 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2009, 11:34:18 AM
And yet, I've survived somehow. :)

That's because before then I didn't know. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2009, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: James on August 22, 2009, 12:03:25 PM
Gurn I think you may get a real kick out of some of his neo-classical pieces/period of 1920-1954 (emphasis on traditional form, classical elegance & clarity). I was listening to his Pulcinella ballet (1920) earlier and it's fashioned out of some pieces by the 18th century composer Pergolesi (a melage of operas, canatas, trio-sonatas & other pieces of his). The orchestration recalls a lean 18th century ensemble & 18th century melodies (though that and other elements are tinkered with using a variety of Igor's own trademark 'devices', imbuing his own personal stamp on the music so to speak). I think you may like it, since you're inclined toward the classical era itself, it's a refreshing spin.

DavidW, Dumbarton Oaks is great, Boulez called it Brandenburg #7.

Well, thanks for that information, James. I'll put both of those pieces on my shopping list. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Maria Rose, fortepiano - Hummel Op 002 #3 Sonata #1 in C for Fortepiano 3rd mvmt - Rondo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 22, 2009, 12:31:59 PM
Quote from: James on August 22, 2009, 12:03:25 PM
DavidW, Dumbarton Oaks is great, Boulez called it Brandenburg #7.

I like that, it seems like a very appropriate name. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 22, 2009, 01:36:57 PM
(As promised...)

A recommended list of works: Antonín Rejcha (1770-1836)


This list is the selection, while the works in bold are "the selection of the selection". Rejcha's music has not been well treated by recording companies; many of these works are just available in versions that could easily be improved in performance as well as in the recording itself.

The most evident "hole" in Rejcha recordings is certainly the one of the string quartets. I've read on the internet some impressions from people who have listened to them, saying that they sounded advanced to their time. I can't say that it is thus, but it's not impossible that Rejcha could have done in string quartets what he did sometimes in other fields (e.g., there are sections of the overture op. 24 that point clearly to Brahms or the late Russian romantics). The other field missing is stage music. Rejcha seems to have acknowledged his opera Sapho as his best work. As far as I know, it hasn't been recorded, even if an almost complete score has survived.

The first approach to Rejcha should be done through the wind quintets and the wind+string quartet quintets. A couple of winners from these sets should be enough to form a sufficient idea: for example, out of the wind quintets, op. 88 n. 5 (B flat major) and op. 91 n. 4 (G minor); out of the wind+string quartet quintets, the flute quintet, the oboe quintet, or the bassoon quintet. The piano trios are wonderful but quite difficult to find. The flute quartets op. 98 are a compendium of formal originality, but they are extremely difficult to find.

Orchestral works haven't been well served by recording companies. The best introduction would be, in spite of being far from ideal, the D+G CD containing the 5/4 overture, the E flat symphony and a sinfonia concertante. The overture op. 24 (a favourite of mine) is, as far as I know, just available from a Czech recording company that has been re-released by a German company and should still be available in JPC (if I'm not mistaken, it includes the E flat major symphony and a wind quintet). Recordings of other symphonies are difficult to find, and I could just add that the recorded symphonies are waiting for an inspirational flair from Chandos and Bamert).

Special mention for the fugues op. 36. As the CPO recording is no longer available, people disliking fortepiano should go for Milan Langer's partial recording in Supraphon. Otherwise, you can head towards Tuma's complete recording. And, finally, among vocal music, I guess Lenore is the starting point.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 22, 2009, 02:00:35 PM
Never heard of him.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2009, 02:37:04 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 22, 2009, 02:00:35 PM
Never heard of him.

Well, you'll not be able to say that again. Gabriel has the atrocious habit of spelling things correctly ( :D ), so you may have actually heard of 'Reicha', since we've discussed him before.  ;)

Thanks greatly for that list, Gabriel. I checked my own selection since yesterday, and see that I have the starters OK. I have 8 of the Wind Quintets, the Clarinet Quintet, Oboe Quintet and Bassoon Quintet. In addition, I have the symphonies in c minor and f minor. Sadly, that's it. :(

But now I know what to keep my eyes open for. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Maria Rose, fortepiano - Hummel Op 013 Sonata #2 in Eb for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 22, 2009, 03:33:22 PM
I'm listening right now to Rejcha's 29th fugue from op. 36, in D minor. What a beautiful music, somewhere between the worlds of Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Brahms (but composed a lot earlier).

Indeed, Rejcha's spelling varies quite a lot. In French, it is Antoine Reicha. Other frequent version is Anton Reicha.

Being a native Spanish speaker, I guess I should write Antonio Reicha. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 08:39:31 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 22, 2009, 03:33:22 PM
Being a native Spanish speaker, I guess I should write Antonio Reicha. ;D

Or "Toño" Reicha, Gabriel.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 23, 2009, 09:44:18 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 08:39:31 AM
Or "Toño" Reicha, Gabriel.  ;D

Justement! "Toñito", for the friends. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 23, 2009, 10:21:04 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 22, 2009, 09:21:20 AM

Replies 701, 703 and 723 are real gems; they are full of ideas, some intuitions and odd/delightful information.

Congratulations Florestan and Gurn! I have enjoyed every word.

:)


Thank you, Antoine. I join Gurn in inviting you to share your thoughts about the subject, if you will.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 23, 2009, 10:22:52 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 22, 2009, 03:33:22 PM
I'm listening right now to Rejcha's 29th fugue from op. 36, in D minor. What a beautiful music, somewhere between the worlds of Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Brahms (but composed a lot earlier).

Sounds very interesting. What's the year of composition then?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 23, 2009, 11:53:12 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 23, 2009, 10:22:52 AM
Sounds very interesting. What's the year of composition then?

1803 (at least, year of publication). The whole set is very interesting, Rejcha intending to favour a change from the traditional fugue patterns, with polyrhythms and tonal relationships other than tonic-dominant.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 12:10:21 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 22, 2009, 01:36:57 PM
Special mention for the fugues op. 36. As the CPO recording is no longer available, people disliking fortepiano should go for Milan Langer's partial recording in Supraphon. Otherwise, you can head towards Tuma's complete recording.

Antonín Rejcha: 36 fugues
Jaroslav Tůma - fortepiano Anton Walter, 1790
2CD
Arta Records
TT- 133 min.,  released 5/2006

An interesting essay and some samples are provided on the Arta website:

http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10146en&site=en

:)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 23, 2009, 12:16:49 PM
I thought this list from Amazon provided some interesting choices. $$$$ to get them all though!  :D

http://www.amazon.com/Really-REICHA/lm/R1FNA7MTGEKPG4/ref=cm_lmt_dtpa_f_1_rdi1i10?pf_rd_p=253470301&pf_rd_s=listmania-center&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00006C2DA&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=13VRHGZKEP0Z55PKQRKA

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 12:39:44 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 23, 2009, 12:16:49 PM
$$$$

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 23, 2009, 12:48:17 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 23, 2009, 12:39:44 PM
;D

:D

I like the way they say "Want the whole list? Put it in your cart!" and the whole list is like $600+. If I ever fell for that, I wonder what the damage would be. By that, I mean 'what would my wife inflict on me?'. ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Tafelmusik \ Weil - Hob 01 052 Symphony in c 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 24, 2009, 05:56:13 AM
Still working on your top 100 list, Gurn?  $:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 06:21:22 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 24, 2009, 05:56:13 AM
Still working on your top 100 list, Gurn?  $:)

Oh yeah, Dave. It is surprisingly not easy...  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 24, 2009, 06:22:11 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 06:21:22 AM
Oh yeah, Dave. It is surprisingly not easy...  0:)

8)

It's quite the task I've set for you.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 06:47:42 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 24, 2009, 06:22:11 AM
It's quite the task I've set for you.  ;D

You're a hard man, Dave...  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 24, 2009, 09:23:33 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 06:47:42 AM
You're a hard man, Dave...  :-\

8)

Just think of it as a request from Prince Dave, just like in the 'ole Haydn days.  Surely, you do not want to test the Prince's patience now, do you?!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 24, 2009, 09:27:08 AM
(http://uclaradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/prince.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on August 24, 2009, 09:29:35 AM
 ;D

I'm thinking Gurn might just flex his Moderator muscles to remove that Prince photo from The Corner thread.   $:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wanderer on August 24, 2009, 09:35:11 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 24, 2009, 09:27:08 AM
*censored pic*

It is for crimes like these I regret the abolition of capital punishment.    ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 24, 2009, 09:47:01 AM
What? He's got his clothes on.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 09:51:07 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 24, 2009, 09:47:01 AM
What? He's got his clothes on.

That's really you, isn't it Dave? The Prince of Minnesota?  Don't have me come over there... >:(

:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 24, 2009, 09:52:18 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 09:51:07 AM
Don't have me come over there...


;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 24, 2009, 04:30:10 PM
I've been listening to some of Boccherini's sinfonias and cello concertos recently.  And I am struck by how Vivaldi inspired some of his music sounds, despite being classical.  He has a very exuberant Italian style that you just don't hear in the big three.

I looked over this thread and saw that a poster by the name of sul G passionately recommended his Stabat Mater, so I might give that a try down the road. :)

Any one else listening to classical Italian?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 24, 2009, 05:04:35 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2009, 04:30:10 PM
I've been listening to some of Boccherini's sinfonias and cello concertos recently.............

Any one else listening to classical Italian?

David - I guess the issue is how to define 'classical Italian' composers, i.e. the time period - most think of the Baroque composers; and of course there are plenty of these Italian 'transitional' guys (i.e. born in the late 17th & early 18th centuries); but just looking over this LONG list from different periods HERE on WIKI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_composers), some that come to mind (and many that I own) may apply - meaning composers born in the earlier part of the 18th century or later - there are many to explore, some of which are listed below:

Giuseppe Tartini (1692–1770)
Pietro Locatelli (1695–1764)
Giuseppe Sammartini (1695–1750) & Giovanni Battista Sammartini (c.1700–1775)
Baldassare Galuppi (1706–1785)
Anna Bon (1740–?) (yes, I own some of her compositions!)
Domenico Cimarosa (1749–1801) (not sure about this guy - don't own any of his works?)
Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825) (well known, of course; but you know, I have NONE of his works on CD?  Should I?)
Muzio Clementi (1752 - 1832) (own a lot of Muzio; of course, his piano works are best known)
Giovanni Viotti (1755 – 1824) (violin works the most famous)
Luigi Cherubini (1760 - 1842)
Mauro Giuliani (1781 - 1829) (own a LOT of his guitar works!)
Niccolò Paganini (1782 - 1840) (no description needed)

Well, I'm sure many might have other favorites, but except for a few above, I own CDs of most of these 'classical' era composers - plenty to explore, if interested - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 24, 2009, 05:27:09 PM
Dave, I like Clementi, I totally forgot about him. :)

Oh yes I remember now you mentioning the Giulini guitar works recently, HIP guitars and all.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 05:28:18 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on August 24, 2009, 05:04:35 PM
David - I guess the issue is how to define 'classical Italian' composers, i.e. the time period - most think of the Baroque composers; and of course there are plenty of these Italian 'transitional' guys (i.e. born in the late 17th & early 18th centuries); but just looking over this LONG list from different periods HERE on WIKI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_composers), some that come to mind (and many that I own) may apply - meaning composers born in the earlier part of the 18th century or later - there are many to explore, some of which are listed below:

Giuseppe Tartini (1692–1770)
Pietro Locatelli (1695–1764)
Giuseppe Sammartini (1695–1750) & Giovanni Battista Sammartini (c.1700–1775)
Baldassare Galuppi (1706–1785)
Anna Bon (1740–?) (yes, I own some of her compositions!)
Domenico Cimarosa (1749–1801) (not sure about this guy - don't own any of his works?)
Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825) (well known, of course; but you know, I have NONE of his works on CD?  Should I?)
Muzio Clementi (1752 - 1832) (own a lot of Muzio; of course, his piano works are best known)
Giovanni Viotti (1755 – 1824) (violin works the most famous)
Luigi Cherubini (1760 - 1842)
Mauro Giuliani (1781 - 1829) (own a LOT of his guitar works!)
Niccolò Paganini (1782 - 1840) (no description needed)

Well, I'm sure many might hav other favorites, but except for a few above, I own CDs of most of these 'classical' era composers - plenty to exploare, if interested - Dave  :)



That's a nice list, Dave.

First let me say that I have no doubt that David hears Vivaldi's influence on Boccherini. Vivaldi was well-known in Italy, not obscure at all, even among the many faces of Italian Late Baroque. Maybe someone who actually knows something could comment here on this that I heard several years ago in a documentary film about Vivaldi (wish I had a copy). The writer insisted several times that Vivaldi's music was a direct ancestor of Classicism. That it bore little resemblance to Baroque at all. He didn't go on far along that line, but repeated it a few times. I took it to mean that Vivaldi was pursuing the line of homophonic music that began with Italian sinfonias and opera overtures rather than the polyphony that was still commonplace in Germany and elsewhere. I think that this led to galant music, which was a direct antecedent of Classical style. It is also possible that such early pre-classicists as Jomelli and Sammartini were directly influenced by Vivaldi's style, but I don't know this for a fact, it is merely a surmise. :)

Here's a little I know about them:

Giuseppe Tartini (1692–1770) - Excellent sonatas and concertos for violin. Pre-Classical in my estimation. Used some archaic forms but modern in other ways, particularly violin technique.

Pietro Locatelli (1695–1764) - I think he is a little less advanced stylistically than Tartini. Still wrote concerti grossi while Tartini wrote solo concerti. Very nice music.

Giuseppe Sammartini (1695–1750) & Giovanni Battista Sammartini (c.1700–1775) - Probably the true 'Father of the Symphony'. Although Haydn denied it (probably for nationalistic reasons) his contemporaries claimed that his symphony style was based more on Sammartini than anyone else, including Stamitz.

Baldassare Galuppi (1706–1785) - Only a name to me. Sorry    :-[

Anna Bon (1740–?) (yes, I own some of her compositions!) Ditto.

Domenico Cimarosa (1749–1801) (not sure about this guy - don't own any of his works?) - I have a modest amount of Cimarosa. He was mainly an opera composer, but he wrote many concerti. Good composer. He worked away from italy most of his adult life, first in Russia and then in Vienna.

Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825) (well known, of course; but you know, I have NONE of his works on CD?  Should I?) - Yes, you should at least have a try with him. His operas are very good (not Mozart, but very good anyway), and his concerti are par for the times. :)

Muzio Clementi (1752 - 1832) (own a lot of Muzio; of course, his piano works are best known) - Brilliant. :)

Giovanni Viotti (1755 – 1824) (violin works the most famous) - Also brilliant.

Luigi Cherubini (1760 - 1842) - The best of the group. A real musician. Even though he ended up in Paris, we can't hold that against him. Beethoven considered him one of the very few composers worth listening to, other than himself.

Mauro Giuliani (1781 - 1829) (own a LOT of his guitar works!) - Have none of his music yet, aim to correct it.

Niccolò Paganini (1782 - 1840) (no description needed) - One of a kind. Carried on the great tradition of Nardini, Tartini and the other great Italian fiddlers, to new heights.

I would add;
Giornovicchi, Giovanni Mane (1735-1804) - Spent at least a good part of his career in London where he was very popular and influential. He was there when Haydn visited in the early 1790's. He was close friends with such famous classicists as Dussek and Clementi. Mainly wrote violin concertos, good ones too! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein - Hob 03 11 Divertimento in D for String Quartet 2nd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 05:29:23 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2009, 04:30:10 PM
I've been listening to some of Boccherini's sinfonias and cello concertos recently.  And I am struck by how Vivaldi inspired some of his music sounds, despite being classical.  He has a very exuberant Italian style that you just don't hear in the big three.

I looked over this thread and saw that a poster by the name of sul G passionately recommended his Stabat Mater, so I might give that a try down the road. :)

Any one else listening to classical Italian?

Oh, Sul G is actually our brilliant friend, Luke Ottevanger, whom I miss badly. :(

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein - Hob 03 12 Divertimento in Bb for String Quartet 3rd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2009, 05:31:22 PM
So do we all, Gurnatron; so do we all.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 25, 2009, 03:57:03 AM
A most excellent list, Dave and Gurn. I would add:

Niccolò Jommelli (1714-1774). Good composer, important for understanding the development of opera during the classical period. There is a good recording of Armida Abbandonata (1750) led by Christophe Rousset.

Giovanni Paisiello (1740-1816). I really don't know what to think about him. In general, I think he's not very consistent (perhaps he composed too many works), but I agree that some of his music is as inspired as it could be.

On the recommendations made by Gurn to Dave, I'd say the most urgent would be to get a copy of Cimarosa's Il matrimonio segreto, and then to try some Salieri (perhaps Thomas Fey's CD of overtures and ballets from the operas).

And, naturally, get as much Cherubini as you can! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 25, 2009, 05:08:51 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 25, 2009, 03:57:03 AM
Niccolò Jommelli (1714-1774). Good composer, important for understanding the development of opera during the classical period. There is a good recording of Armida Abbandonata (1750) led by Christophe Rousset.

I'd never heard of him before I worked with Marita McClymonds (http://openlibrary.org/a/OL1656072A/Marita-P.-McClymonds) in Charlottesville.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2009, 05:25:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 25, 2009, 05:08:51 AM
I'd never heard of him before I worked with Marita McClymonds (http://openlibrary.org/a/OL1656072A/Marita-P.-McClymonds) in Charlottesville.

Jomelli  has a major innovation to his credit; as music director in Mannheim, he introduced dynamics into the orchestra. All the hoo-rah about the famous Mannheim Orchestra is directly attributable to him and Johann Stamitz (who introduced the concept of members of the orchestra playing in time with each other.... ::) ). :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 25, 2009, 05:27:42 AM
Now playing Ignaz Holzbauer's Quintet in G major no.1 for fortepiano, flute, violin, viola and cello performed by Camerata Koeln --- and guess what? I enjoy how the fortepiano sounds.  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 25, 2009, 05:27:58 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2009, 05:25:28 AM
. . . Johann Stamitz (who introduced the concept of members of the orchestra playing in time with each other.... )

An idea which to this day finds staunch resistance in Germany  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 25, 2009, 06:20:52 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2009, 05:28:18 PM

Baldassare Galuppi (1706–1785) - Only a name to me. Sorry    :-[

Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825) (well known, of course; but you know, I have NONE of his works on CD?  Should I?) - Yes, you should at least have a try with him. His operas are very good (not Mozart, but very good anyway), and his concerti are par for the times. :)

I would add;
Giornovicchi, Giovanni Mane (1735-1804) - Spent at least a good part of his career in London where he was very popular and influential. He was there when Haydn visited in the early 1790's. He was close friends with such famous classicists as Dussek and Clementi. Mainly wrote violin concertos, good ones too! :)


Thanks guys for the comments & additional recommendations - I believe that Salieri should be added to my collection - just have been avoiding him?  :-\

Cherubini - if interested in some instrumental works by this composer, then give the String Quartets a try!  :D

Giornovicchi - have nothing by this individual, but do enjoy the 'continental' types who ended up in London and seemed to acquired an 'international flair' to their composing!

Galuppi - own the 3 discs shown below, all worth a listen - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31%2BBKxV3FZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://www.tactus.biz/store/images/700702.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M0S0HCEFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2009, 06:52:54 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 25, 2009, 05:27:42 AM
Now playing Ignaz Holzbauer's Quintet in G major no.1 for fortepiano, flute, violin, viola and cello performed by Camerata Koeln --- and guess what? I enjoy how the fortepiano sounds.  0:)

Bless you.  0:)

I have mentioned somewhere here, in one of my impassioned defenses of the fortepiano ( :D ), that it is at its best in chamber music. In fact, I say without hesitation that in this particular genre, it is superior to the modern piano due to its smaller and more controllable sostenuto. That sounds like an interesting disk. I like Holzbauer's orchestral music... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2009, 06:53:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 25, 2009, 05:27:58 AM
An idea which to this day finds staunch resistance in Germany  8)

You're not going to sucker me into that discussion, Dr. H. :D  I did set you up nicely for it though... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2009, 07:01:49 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on August 25, 2009, 06:20:52 AM
Thanks guys for the comments & additional recommendations - I believe that Salieri should be added to my collection - just have been avoiding him?  :-\

Cherubini - if interested in some instrumental works by this composer, then give the String Quartets a try!  :D

Giornovicchi - have nothing by this individual, but do enjoy the 'continental' types who ended up in London and seemed to acquired an 'international flair' to their composing!

Galuppi - own the 3 discs shown below, all worth a listen - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31%2BBKxV3FZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://www.tactus.biz/store/images/700702.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M0S0HCEFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Dave,
Yes, Cherubini's SQ's are a very worthwhile start to exploring his music. I have 2 cycles, both good: Hausmusik on Virgin and Quartetto David on BIS. Hausmusik has the advantage of PI, but QD are very good. :)

Arte Nova (I think, should have looked before leaving the house this AM) put out 2 or 3 disks of Giornovicchi's concerti, of which I have 1, which I got at BRO 2 years ago. They are similar in style to Viotti, perhaps a bit more on the lively side. Not bad at all, plus they fill in an apparent gap in the repertoire where VC's were thin on the ground; namely the 1790's. Not sure why they temporarily went out of fashion, but other than Viotti and Spohr, you won't find a whole lot from that period. :)

That Galuppi looks interesting. Have to make an effort (after the Haydn Project is put to bed! What a money pit! :o :o ) :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 25, 2009, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2009, 06:52:54 AM
I have mentioned somewhere here, in one of my impassioned defenses of the fortepiano ( :D ), that it is at its best in chamber music.

I'll try some more then. :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2009, 06:52:54 AM
That sounds like an interesting disk. I like Holzbauer's orchestral music... :)

I've never heard anything by him until today.

This is the disk:

(http://www.camerata-koeln.de/images/007.jpg)

Ignaz Holzbauer (1711 - 1783)

Chamber Works

Quintet in B flat major No. 2 for fortepiano, flute, violin, viola and violoncello
Sinfonia à 3 in G major for two violins and B.c.
Divertimento à 3 in D major for flute, violin, double bass and guitar
Quintet in G major No. 1 for fortepiano, flute, violin, viola and violoncello

CAMERATA KÖLN
Sabine Bauer, Fortepiano / Harpsichord
Karl Kaiser, Transverse flute
Sabine Lier / Ingeborg Scheerer, Violin
Rainer Zipperling, Violoncello / Violone
Yasunori Imamura, Baroque Guitar

Listen here (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D97E266C3F1C1F4D).  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 26, 2009, 12:34:51 PM
*taps foot, checks watch*
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on August 26, 2009, 05:40:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2009, 07:01:49 AM
Cherubini's SQ's are a very worthwhile start to exploring his music. I have 2 cycles, both good: Hausmusik on Virgin and Quartetto David on BIS. Hausmusik has the advantage of PI, but QD are very good. :)

I rather enjoy the Hausmusik album.  You can get all six quartets in one set for a mere $27!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/217A3EH285L._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Cherubini-Complete-String-Quartets-Luigi/dp/B00008MLWX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251337160&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2009, 05:50:51 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on August 26, 2009, 05:40:10 PM
I rather enjoy the Hausmusik album.  You can get all six quartets in one set for a mere $27!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/217A3EH285L._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Cherubini-Complete-String-Quartets-Luigi/dp/B00008MLWX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251337160&sr=1-1

Yep, it's a peach. :)  I am just trying to give a very good alternative to the non-PIons so they can listen too. ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 31 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 20 #1 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 26, 2009, 05:59:34 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on August 26, 2009, 05:40:10 PM
I rather enjoy the Hausmusik album.  You can get all six quartets in one set for a mere $27!

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/cpo9999492.jpg)

Amazon LINK (http://www.amazon.com/Cherubini-Complete-String-Quartets-Luigi/dp/B00008MLWX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251337160&sr=1-1)

Sorin - I have the same 3-CD set and enjoy!  :D  Amazing that after years of writing operas & church music, he turned to chamber music w/ all of these works written after the age of 50 y/o (and even much later in his life) - these are worth exploring; just melodic, delightful, and with an operatic flare -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 27, 2009, 01:25:31 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on August 26, 2009, 05:59:34 PM
Sorin - I have the same 3-CD set and enjoy!  :D  Amazing that after years of writing operas & church music, he turned to chamber music w/ all of these works written after the age of 50 y/o (and even much later in his life) - these are worth exploring; just melodic, delightful, and with an operatic flare -  :)

They are very unique works indeed, quite away from the line of the Viennese composers and also far from the Italian tradition of Boccherini or Brunetti (and yet, not too close to the approaches of the French classicism towards string quartet).

You, guys, are missing the best recording: the one by the Melos Quartet, originally in DG and now available in Brilliant for an absurd price.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 27, 2009, 10:15:42 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 27, 2009, 01:25:31 AM

You, guys, are missing the best recording: the one by the Melos Quartet, originally in DG and now available in Brilliant for an absurd price.

Gabriel - thanks for the recommendation above w/ the Melos Quartet; I was actually reading a quite good Amazonian Review (http://www.amazon.com/Cherubini-Complete-String-Quartets-Luigi/dp/B00008MLWX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251396511&sr=1-1) last night, in which 4 different recordings of these works were compared; the Melos performances seemed to be the favorites of this reviewer w/ Hausmusik bringing up the rear, but seemingly not by much! Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 27, 2009, 10:23:43 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on August 27, 2009, 10:15:42 AM
Gabriel - thanks for the recommendation above w/ the Melos Quartet; I was actually reading a quite good Amazonian Review (http://www.amazon.com/Cherubini-Complete-String-Quartets-Luigi/dp/B00008MLWX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251396511&sr=1-1) last night, in which 4 different recordings of these works were compared; the Melos performances seemed to be the favorites of this reviewer w/ Hausmusik bringing up the rear, but seemingly not by much! Dave  :)

We will agree that these magnificent works justify owning more than one version. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on August 29, 2009, 06:09:27 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 27, 2009, 10:23:43 AM
We will agree that these magnificent works justify owning more than one version. ;D

>:(  Don't tempt me, Gabriel! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 30, 2009, 03:48:16 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on August 29, 2009, 06:09:27 PM
>:(  Don't tempt me, Gabriel! ;D

The temptation comes from such excellent music, Sorin! ;) Cherubini was really a great composer. Muti's already in charge of his religious music with splendid recordings (but he hasn't recorded all the Masses yet). I'd be really glad if some champions such as Jacobs, Minkowski or Rousset would take the challenge of recording the yet unrecorded operas (for example Eliza, Anacréon or Faniska), as well as recording with a star cast the original version of Médée (in French, not the hybrid Italian version re-composed during the Romantic period by other musicians).

But in the meanwhile, you can buy the Melos Quartet set. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 30, 2009, 06:25:08 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 30, 2009, 03:48:16 AM
But in the meanwhile, you can buy the Melos Quartet set. ;D

LOL -  ;D   Just put in my order for the Melos Quartet on Brilliant the other night - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2009, 07:57:47 AM
Make-it-Beethoven-Sunday:

I listened to some decent music, bad music (Wellington's Victory), and some good music this morning.  Out of the good music, I wanted to mention one work that caught my ears as a rare gem.

Beethoven's WoO 33 organ work is pretty darned good, and the adagio is stunningly beautiful.  Has anybody else heard this?  Do you know when it was written?  It has an ethereal, airy sound to it, and focuses more on easy on the ears gallant textures over the contrapuntally dense organ music that I'm more used to from the baroque era.

A simple google search revealed that I was listening to a transcription and it was meant for a "musical clock", what the heck is that? :D  How can a clock make music? ;D

Anybody else, have you heard this work?  Do you know when it comes from, it has no Op # so I'm tempted that it's an early work, but maybe not.  Especially the way it sounds, I really want to call it an early work.  Hmmm...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2009, 08:19:40 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2009, 07:57:47 AM
Make-it-Beethoven-Sunday:

I listened to some decent music, bad music (Wellington's Victory), and some good music this morning.  Out of the good music, I wanted to mention one work that caught my ears as a rare gem.

Beethoven's WoO 33 organ work is pretty darned good, and the adagio is stunningly beautiful.  Has anybody else heard this?  Do you know when it was written?  It has an ethereal, airy sound to it, and focuses more on easy on the ears gallant textures over the contrapuntally dense organ music that I'm more used to from the baroque era.

A simple google search revealed that I was listening to a transcription and it was meant for a "musical clock", what the heck is that? :D  How can a clock make music? ;D

Anybody else, have you heard this work?  Do you know when it comes from, it has no Op # so I'm tempted that it's an early work, but maybe not.  Especially the way it sounds, I really want to call it an early work.  Hmmm...

Actually, there are 5 pieces for musical clock, WoO 33 #1-5. A musical clock is like a giant music box, where a drum has the notes punched out and the drum then revolves and plucks the right notes. Sort of the way a player piano works. Mozart, Haydn, Kozeluch and many others wrote works for musical clock, because they were extremely popular in Vienna in the period 1780-1815. The one that Beethoven wrote for was located in a deal like a wax museum, owned by Count Joseph Deym, it was very popular.

These works were composed mainly in 1799-1800, although a couple of them were sketched out as early as 1794. They are played on the organ now, for the obvious reason that transporting a clockwork around is difficult and also doesn't require a player, just a mechanic. :)

Mozart's Fantasia K 608 and his Adagio & Allegro in f minor K 594 were both composed for musical clock. It is believed that no one can possibly play either of these pieces at the speed they are supposed to be played, but they sound damn nice on the organ, and also in an arrangement for fortepiano 4 hands. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
NBC Symphony / Toscanini - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 30, 2009, 08:23:48 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on August 30, 2009, 06:25:08 AM
LOL -  ;D   Just put in my order for the Melos Quartet on Brilliant the other night - Dave  :D

Bravo, Dave!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2009, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2009, 08:26:56 AM
Here you can listen to it

here (http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/8/30/2559462/St%C3%BCcke%20f%C3%BCr%20Fl%C3%B6tenuhr%2C%20WoO33%20-%20Adagio%20assai%20%28Christian%20Schmitt%20orgue%29.mp3)

I tried to do the mp3 thing just like Que does, but it won't work for me, don't know why. :-\


I've got all 5 of them played on the organ (also) by Simon Preston on the Complete Beethoven Edition. Nice little works. :)

I don't know how to do that file thing either. Q has more patience than I do. :D

8)


----------------
Listening to:
NBC Symphony / Toscanini - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile - Andante moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2009, 08:31:35 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2009, 08:19:40 AM
Actually, there are 5 pieces for musical clock, WoO 33 #1-5. A musical clock is like a giant music box, where a drum has the notes punched out and the drum then revolves and plucks the right notes. Sort of the way a player piano works. Mozart, Haydn, Kozeluch and many others wrote works for musical clock, because they were extremely popular in Vienna in the period 1780-1815. The one that Beethoven wrote for was located in a deal like a wax museum, owned by Count Joseph Deym, it was very popular.

These works were composed mainly in 1799-1800, although a couple of them were sketched out as early as 1794. They are played on the organ now, for the obvious reason that transporting a clockwork around is difficult and also doesn't require a player, just a mechanic. :)

Mozart's Fantasia K 608 and his Adagio & Allegro in f minor K 594 were both composed for musical clock. It is believed that no one can possibly play either of these pieces at the speed they are supposed to be played, but they sound damn nice on the organ, and also in an arrangement for fortepiano 4 hands. :)

8)

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Listening to:
NBC Symphony / Toscanini - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace

Ah I am enlightened now, thanks!  That's quite a curiousity then, musical clock music since it was popular for such a very short time, I guess it was a fad. :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2009, 08:35:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2009, 08:31:35 AM
Ah I am enlightened now, thanks!  That's quite a curiousity then, musical clock music since it was popular for such a very short time, I guess it was a fad. :D

Yeah, I'm sure it was. Actually, it was popular for longer than that, the clock towers in a lot of the churches had music players. The one in the church in Salzburg where Mozart grew up is still working today, IIRC it is playing the same tunes for us as it played for him! :) But the museum thing, and having them independent of the churches, that was a short term fad. :)

8)

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Listening to:
NBC Symphony / Toscanini - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile - Andante moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2009, 06:14:20 AM
Simplified Couperin family tree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Couperin)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2009, 06:20:50 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2009, 06:14:20 AM
Simplified Couperin family tree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Couperin)

Pour quoi, monsieur?  ???

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2009, 07:19:08 AM
Inspired both by MN Dave's listening . . . which in turn was a timely reminder how much I enjoy his clavier music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2009, 07:52:59 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2009, 07:19:08 AM
Inspired both by MN Dave's listening . . . which in turn was a timely reminder how much I enjoy his clavier music.

Ah! Makes sense.

But he isn't Classical... It would be like posting Henning here. Just wouldn't be either good or prudent. Just sayin'... :-\

;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 31, 2009, 07:55:29 AM
Karl, don't confuse old Gurn. He only uses Classical tobacco.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2009, 07:55:57 AM
Oops!  I guess I thought of the thread too much in G.E. (Gurnian Era) terms  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2009, 07:56:15 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 31, 2009, 07:55:29 AM
Karl, don't confuse old Gurn. He only uses Classical tobacco.

No Baroque weed for Gurn!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2009, 07:56:32 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 31, 2009, 07:55:29 AM
Karl, don't confuse old Gurn. He only uses Classical tobacco.

Are they calling it 'tobacco' nowadays? Back in MY day... ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2009, 07:57:24 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2009, 07:55:57 AM
Oops!  I guess I thought of the thread too much in G.E. (Gurnian Era) terms  8)

Well yeah, but Couperin died in 1701. That's broad even by MY standards!   ;D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2009, 07:59:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2009, 07:57:24 AM
Well yeah, but Couperin died in 1701. That's broad even by MY standards!   ;D

8)

Le Grand est mort en 1733. (Je dis, simplement.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Dr. Dread on August 31, 2009, 08:01:52 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2009, 07:56:32 AM
Are they calling it 'tobacco' nowadays? Back in MY day... ;)

8)

"Dave's not here."
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2009, 08:05:13 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2009, 07:59:54 AM
Le Grand est mort en 1733. (Je dis, simplement.)

Ah, well I was going by the link you posted;

François (1631-1701) musician

not having read further down the list to find;

François the Great (3) (1668-1733)

Bear in mind. also, Karl, that they were French... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2009, 08:06:22 AM
Why do you think they have this outrageous accent?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2009, 08:06:57 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on August 31, 2009, 08:01:52 AM
"Dave's not here."

*Knock knock*

"Who is it?"

"It's Dave, man, let me in..."

"Dave? Dave's not here"

;D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Chaszz on September 04, 2009, 04:41:46 AM
Classical era fans, please see the post below on the General board titled "Living Away from Home When Home is Available." I hope I am not violating any rules by drawing attention from here to that thread which I would appreciate your input on, in case there are any experts here who browse here only. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 05, 2009, 10:48:37 AM
Haydn, Joseph - Piano Trios w/ the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (http://www.haydntrioeisenstadt.at/hte/englisch/hteindex.htm); 8-CD set using a modern piano but played in a fashion reminding me more of the fortepiano - just half way through this set; a total of 39 works are recorded; so far quite impressed w/ this group - some excellent reviews quoted on the Naxos Website (http://www.naxos.com/reviews/reviewslist.asp?catalogueid=Phoenix161&languageid=EN) - my other set is also shown below, i.e. Van Swieten Trio using a fortepiano - love this set, also; for the price of these boxes & depending on the instruments preferred, difficult to see either one being a disappointment - no longer have my BAT 2-CD sampler, so will not be able to make a comparison.   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/639958931_UHw6B-O.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Harpo on September 05, 2009, 11:04:38 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on September 05, 2009, 10:48:37 AM
Haydn, Joseph - Piano Trios w/ the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (http://www.haydntrioeisenstadt.at/hte/englisch/hteindex.htm); 8-CD set using a modern piano but played in a fashion reminding me more of the fortepiano - just half way through this set; a total of 39 works are recorded; so far quite impressed w/ this group - some excellent reviews quoted on the Naxos Website (http://www.naxos.com/reviews/reviewslist.asp?catalogueid=Phoenix161&languageid=EN) - my other set is also shown below, i.e. Van Swieten Trio using a fortepiano - love this set, also; for the price of these boxes & depending on the instruments preferred, difficult to see either one being a disappointment - no longer have my BAT 2-CD sampler, so will not be able to make a comparison.   :D


I see you've been playing Haydn Seek  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on September 05, 2009, 12:22:42 PM
Speaking of Haydn, I just bought a truckload of discs of his brother, Mike.  It seems odd to me that he is less known than he is, especially when you consider he was even more popular than Mozart at the time of the latter's death.  I wonder what Gurn thinks about JM...?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on September 05, 2009, 12:47:14 PM
I love Michael Haydn's trumpet concerto. :)

I recently got into trouble with Karl for calling it one of the greatest of the classical era. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2009, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on September 05, 2009, 10:48:37 AM
Haydn, Joseph - Piano Trios w/ the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (http://www.haydntrioeisenstadt.at/hte/englisch/hteindex.htm); 8-CD set using a modern piano but played in a fashion reminding me more of the fortepiano - just half way through this set; a total of 39 works are recorded; so far quite impressed w/ this group - some excellent reviews quoted on the Naxos Website (http://www.naxos.com/reviews/reviewslist.asp?catalogueid=Phoenix161&languageid=EN) - my other set is also shown below, i.e. Van Swieten Trio using a fortepiano - love this set, also; for the price of these boxes & depending on the instruments preferred, difficult to see either one being a disappointment - no longer have my BAT 2-CD sampler, so will not be able to make a comparison.   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/639958931_UHw6B-O.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SS500_.jpg)

Nice acquisition, Dave. I found the place in the Big Box where this group is playing; they play the (virtually) entire Hob. XIV, which are divertimentos and concertinos for keyboard and friends. In many cases, scarcely more than a piano trio anyway. I almost pulled the trigger on the 2 disk set and then I realized there was no purpose if it was in the big box  ::)  Glad they sound good though, since I have no other versions of these works to go by. :)

8)

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Listening to: 
Philharmonia Hungarica \ Dorati - Hob 09 16 #22 Minuet in d for Orchestra
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2009, 01:01:49 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on September 05, 2009, 12:22:42 PM
Speaking of Haydn, I just bought a truckload of discs of his brother, Mike.  It seems odd to me that he is less known than he is, especially when you consider he was even more popular than Mozart at the time of the latter's death.  I wonder what Gurn thinks about JM...?

I like JMH, although I don't think he is the equal of Joseph in purely instrumental music. His forte was church music, and I understand he was premier at it. I haven't got any though. :-\  Ihave that box of 20 symphonies, and a few divertimentos. Generally, quite nice. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on September 05, 2009, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2009, 01:01:49 PM
I like JMH, although I don't think he is the equal of Joseph in purely instrumental music. His forte was church music, and I understand he was premier at it. I haven't got any though. :-\  Ihave that box of 20 symphonies, and a few divertimentos. Generally, quite nice. :)

8)

I haven't bought too many CDs of his church music, but my impression is a very good one. I feel that his brother Franz Joseph wasn't kidding when he said that Michael's contribution to this field was better than his. (I think I expressed some time ago my good opinion on Michael Haydn's Missa Sancti Francisci... that wonderful final fugue for the Gloria..!) I also know a beautiful Missa Sancti Hieronymi (for wind instruments and voices), a truly majestic Missa Sancti Gotthardi, the Missa pro defuncto Archiepiscopo Segismundo (the model for Mozart's unfinished Requiem, and very clearly a model in some sections), and some minor works. I've liked them so much that I consider Michael Haydn's religious music is one of my priorities for future musical exploration.

On the other hand, as Gurn, I have not been very impressed with his instrumental works, but as I have listened just a few works, I'll be patient and consider this position of mine as transitory.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on September 05, 2009, 03:26:26 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on September 05, 2009, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2009, 01:01:49 PM
I like JMH, although I don't think he is the equal of Joseph in purely instrumental music. His forte was church music, and I understand he was premier at it. I haven't got any though. :-\  Ihave that box of 20 symphonies, and a few divertimentos. Generally, quite nice. :)

8)

I haven't bought too many CDs of his church music, but my impression is a very good one. I feel that his brother Franz Joseph wasn't kidding when he said that Michael's contribution to this field was better than his. (I think I expressed some time ago my good opinion on Michael Haydn's Missa Sancti Francisci... that wonderful final fugue for the Gloria..!) I also know a beautiful Missa Sancti Hieronymi (for wind instruments and voices), a truly majestic Missa Sancti Gotthardi, the Missa pro defuncto Archiepiscopo Segismundo (the model for Mozart's unfinished Requiem, and very clearly a model in some sections), and some minor works. I've liked them so much that I consider Michael Haydn's religious music is one of my priorities for future musical exploration.

On the other hand, as Gurn, I have not been very impressed with his instrumental works, but as I have listened just a few works, I'll be patient and consider this position of mine as transitory.

Yes, I figured that was the case.  I'll probably become stark raving mad about his music, then, as I'm a sucker for great church music!  ::)  

A few of the incoming albums are of the symphonies, though (period instruments, of course ;) ).  What I've heard of them already I like; they seem to me more akin to Mozart's symphonies than FJ's, perhaps because both Wolfgang and Michael were stylistically Viennese...?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on September 05, 2009, 04:03:09 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on September 05, 2009, 03:26:26 PM
A few of the incoming albums are of the symphonies, though (period instruments, of course ;) ).  What I've heard of them already I like; they seem to me more akin to Mozart's symphonies than FJ's, perhaps because both Wolfgang and Michael were stylistically Viennese...?

Here I'm just guessing, Sorin, but a plausible explanation would be that Mozart and Michael Haydn were composing in Salzburg before Mozart decided to go to Vienna. I'm sure Gurn can offer more facts on this subject than me! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2009, 05:07:40 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on September 05, 2009, 04:03:09 PM
Here I'm just guessing, Sorin, but a plausible explanation would be that Mozart and Michael Haydn were composing in Salzburg before Mozart decided to go to Vienna. I'm sure Gurn can offer more facts on this subject than me! ;D

Well, Michael had been Kappelmeister at Salzburg court from the mid-1760's (1763, I think), and it is impossible that he, like everyone else whose music Mozart heard (he was a sponge!) didn't make an impression, probably a large one, on Mozart. I agree that their works sound more similar than the brothers' do. I don't dislike his symphonies, I see him as less inspired in that genre than in others. :)

8)

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Listening to:   
André Watts - Bia 297-1 Op 27 #1 Sonata #13 in Eb for Piano 4th mvmt - Allegro vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 05, 2009, 05:21:43 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2009, 05:07:40 PM
...it is impossible that he, like everyone else whose music Mozart heard (he was a sponge!) didn't make an impression, probably a large one, on Mozart. I agree that their works sound more similar than the brothers' do. I don't dislike his symphonies, I see him as less inspired in that genre than in others. :)


You have recalled me this passage of Ralph Waldo Emerson:

Plato, too, like every great man, consumed his own times. What is a great man but one of great affinities, who takes up into himself all arts, sciences, all knowables, as his food? He can spare nothing; he can dispose of every thing. What is not good for virtue, is good for knowledge. Hence his contemporaries tax him with plagiarism. But the inventor only knows how to borrow; and society is glad to forget the innumerable laborers who ministered to this architect, and reserves all its gratitude for him. When we are praising Plato, it seems we are praising quotations from Solon and Sophron and Philolaus. Be it so. Every book is a quotation; and every house is a quotation out of all forests and mines and stone quarries; and every man is a quotation from all his ancestors. And this grasping inventor puts all nations under contribution.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2009, 05:31:13 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 05, 2009, 05:21:43 PM
You have recalled me this passage of Ralph Waldo Emerson:

Plato, too, like every great man, consumed his own times. What is a great man but one of great affinities, who takes up into himself all arts, sciences, all knowables, as his food? He can spare nothing; he can dispose of every thing. What is not good for virtue, is good for knowledge. Hence his contemporaries tax him with plagiarism. But the inventor only knows how to borrow; and society is glad to forget the innumerable laborers who ministered to this architect, and reserves all its gratitude for him. When we are praising Plato, it seems we are praising quotations from Solon and Sophron and Philolaus. Be it so. Every book is a quotation; and every house is a quotation out of all forests and mines and stone quarries; and every man is a quotation from all his ancestors. And this grasping inventor puts all nations under contribution.

:)

That's great, Antoine. And it speaks to so many great men. There was no one, ever, who was able to take the efforts of so many different people in music and blend them into the truly wonderful, as Mozart did. :)

8)

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Listening to:
Wilhelm Kempff - Bia 297-2 Op 27 #2 Sonata #14 in c# for Piano 1st mvmt - Adagio sostenuto - attacca
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 10, 2009, 01:07:54 PM
Currently enjoying the Vegh performances of the Mozart works listed below which are part of this bargain 10-CD package.

Wolfie wrote a lot of this & similar music which is not included in this BIG box; I had about a half dozen discs previously labeled as Serenades & Divertimenti, including a couple double-CD sets (below, left, w/ Klocker & Consortium Classicum) - absolutely NOTHING is duplicated in Klocker recordings which led to me reviewing just 'how much' of this kind of music was attributed to Mozart; of course, the Kochel listing in the New Grove Mozart bio showed all and even more of these works - pretty impressive output!

I also found a site HERE (http://www.mozartproject.org/compositions/index.html) that categorizes the Mozart compositions w/ some nice & neat tables - take a look, if interested.  The Vegh recordings are listed there under these categories:  Cassations, Serenades, & Divertimenti; Marches; & Dance Music; the Klocker performances are all in the listing Wind Ensemble, which makes sense; BTW, nothing in the Vegh box is from this category.

Well, believe that I now have a better understanding of these varied catergories, and I'd imagine that a 20+ CD box would be needed to include all of the Mozart works listed in these various groups -  :D

MOZART - Serenades and Divertimenti - Camerata Academica des Mozarteums Salzburg/ Sandor Vegh

Serenades KV100, KV185, KV203, KV204, KV239, KV250 Haffner, K525 Eine kleine Nachtmusik

Divertimenti KV113, KV131, KV136, KV137, KV138, KV205, KV247, KV251, KV287, KV334

Kontretanze KV123, KV101, KV609, KV610; Kasstionen KV63, KV99; Marches KV62, KV215

Minuets KV222, KV164; Adagio and Fugue KV546; Fantasia KV608;Ein Spass KV522


(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/49368.jpg)  (http://static.musicload.de/cov/m/230/0/cover/00/83/000000000000839c/0724356939257_large_7eccb82f05c397ec14d96a72ab91cb5a/serenades-divertimenti-consortium-musicum.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 15, 2009, 05:35:13 PM
Dave,
Those look like excellent choices. I have all those works, but by different performers. As you know, I'm not part of the Cult of the Performer, so that doesn't bother me at all. :)  

Our modern practice of classifying things really runs into a speed bump when we get to the music of this time. For example, Haydn's earliest 'string quartets' were called variously 'cassatio' (not 'cassation'), divertimento a quadro, just plain 'divertimento, just plain 'quadro', 'sinfonia a quadro', in short, everything but 'string quartet'. And that was by their composer! :o  I imagine there were plenty of other names available too. It came in handy down the road that someone finally settled on the name. So when we look at Mozart, we find cassation, serenade and divertimento used in about equal proportion, although cassation later fell out of fashion. In modern times we have made a good stab at pigeonholing all these works, but still, telling an orchestral serenade, such as 'Posthorn' from an orchestral divertimento such as 'Robinig' (K 334) takes someone with far more expert an ear than I have. :D  To me, dividing them up into orchestral and 'pseudo' chamber works the best. :)

8)


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Listening to:
Capella Augustina \ Spering - Hob 21 02 Die Schöpfung pt 26 - Vollendet ist das große Werk - Trio - Zu dir, oh Herr, blickt alles auf

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2009, 05:02:55 AM
No one puts Gurny in a corner . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ChamberNut on September 16, 2009, 05:15:11 AM
Karl, did you ever finish Papa's symphony cycle, or did you stop?  Well, I guess you'll just have to start over from scratch.  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2009, 05:16:08 AM
Haven't finished yet;  but, it has been a while.

Friday's a-coming . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on September 22, 2009, 02:26:55 PM
I've been listening to Diana Damrau's splendid CD "Arie di bravura", containing arias by Mozart, Salieri and Righini (exquisitely sung, as one could expect). I am particularly impressed by the two arias by Vincenzo Righini (1756-1812), both coming from "Il natal d'Apollo": I guess I will not exaggerate by saying that they are in the level of a very good Mozart (not the very best, but no doubt very good), and that they compare favourably to Salieri's arias which, competent and original, sound nevertheless a bit rigid.

I wonder if somebody in the forum has listened to any other work by Righini. I've checked the repertoire available on CD, and it is extremely scarce, but I think it's possible that someone among our illustrious GMG posters could have had some contact with it. All contributions will be warmly appreciated.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2009, 04:45:36 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on September 22, 2009, 02:26:55 PM
I've been listening to Diana Damrau's splendid CD "Arie di bravura", containing arias by Mozart, Salieri and Righini (exquisitely sung, as one could expect). I am particularly impressed by the two arias by Vincenzo Righini (1756-1812), both coming from "Il natal d'Apollo": I guess I will not exaggerate by saying that they are in the level of a very good Mozart (not the very best, but no doubt very good), and that they compare favourably to Salieri's arias which, competent and original, sound nevertheless a bit rigid.

I wonder if somebody in the forum has listened to any other work by Righini. I've checked the repertoire available on CD, and it is extremely scarce, but I think it's possible that someone among our illustrious GMG posters could have had some contact with it. All contributions will be warmly appreciated.

Gabriel,
Sorry to say that the only Righini I ever heard was by Beethoven. WoO 65 "24 Variations for Piano in D on Vincenzo Righini's arietta "Venni Amore". It's a right smart little piece of music though, dating from <>1790, the end of his Bonn days. As you say, the availability is not what it needs to be. I figure if Beethoven liked him though... :)

8)


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Listening to:
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 06 Sonata #13 in G for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on September 24, 2009, 09:54:58 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 20, 2009, 11:02:36 AM
As far as I could find this composer has only been mentioned twice: once on a cello concertos thread, the other as a joke by D Minor.  I couldn't sleep last night so I was listening to the radio and there was a fantastic trumpet concerto.  I thought who could this be?  It was clearly classical in style, but I've already re-listened to the great trumpet concerto of the classical era just a few days ago, Michael Haydn's concerto, and this was not that.  So who could this be?  At the end of the piece it was identified as Neruda's trumpet concerto.

Johann Neruda (according to wikipedia) was a classical era composer known primarly for being chief conductor of the Dresden Court Orchestra.  He wrote several concertos, symphonies and other works.  You can find his trumpet concerto, bassoon concerto, cello concertos and his trio sonatas on cd.

I found the trumpet concerto available for $.89 on amazon mp3!  If you can spare that amount, you are in for a treat. :)
http://www.amazon.com/Johann-Baptist-Georg-Neruda-Trompetenkonzert/dp/B000YYO8YQ/ (http://www.amazon.com/Johann-Baptist-Georg-Neruda-Trompetenkonzert/dp/B000YYO8YQ/)

If there are any Neruda fans out there, and you have favored recordings I would appreciate if you shared them. 8)

I finally pulled the trigger on that $.89 Neruda trumpet concerto! :D  And it still sounds simply divine. 0:)  I'm glad I bought it.  If you have a hankering for classical era trumpet concertos, give this a try. :)  But of course you should realize that I consider Michael Haydn's trumpet concerto to be a great work, so perhaps I shouldn't be trusted! :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on September 25, 2009, 12:41:00 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2009, 04:45:36 PM
Gabriel,
Sorry to say that the only Righini I ever heard was by Beethoven. WoO 65 "24 Variations for Piano in D on Vincenzo Righini's arietta "Venni Amore". It's a right smart little piece of music though, dating from <>1790, the end of his Bonn days. As you say, the availability is not what it needs to be. I figure if Beethoven liked him though... :)

Yes, Gurn, that was my only knowledge of Righini too before purchasing the CD. The two arias are really beautiful.

Now about Beethoven... ;D Yesterday evening I went to the Théâtre des Champs-Élysées, Kurt Masur conducting the Orchestre National de France, and playing (what is not very frequent) the complete incidental music to Egmont. We usually tend to associate Egmont with its overture, but the rest of the music is magnificent, one of my favourite Beethoven scores. (As a coincidence, just as in Righini's case, there are two beautiful arias for soprano which I have admired for a long time: Die Trommel Gerühret is particularly effective when listened to in the theater).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2009, 01:26:42 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on September 25, 2009, 12:41:00 AM
Yesterday evening I went to the Théâtre des Champs-Élysées, Kurt Masur conducting the Orchestre National de France, and playing (what is not very frequent) the complete incidental music to Egmont. We usually tend to associate Egmont with its overture, but the rest of the music is magnificent, one of my favourite Beethoven scores. (As a coincidence, just as in Righini's case, there are two beautiful arias for soprano which I have admired for a long time: Die Trommel Gerühret is particularly effective when listened to in the theater).

How many numbers are there in this work, Gabriel? I've heard it in concert hall too and beside overture, there were two arias and an intermezzo. Is there anything else to it?

Magnificent music, indeed.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on September 25, 2009, 04:28:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 25, 2009, 01:26:42 AM
How many numbers are there in this work, Gabriel? I've heard it in concert hall too and beside overture, there were two arias and an intermezzo. Is there anything else to it?

Magnificent music, indeed.

There is the overture, two arias, four intermezzi, music for the death of Clärchen, a melodrama for the death of Egmont and the final Symphony of Victory (that repeats the final part of the overture). Egmont is like the Eroica: it is "pure" Beethoven. Even if in your case the performance was not a complete one, Florestan, you must be happy and grateful to have listened live to those two beautiful arias! :D

I was a bit disappointed that the speaker for the melodrama did not read all the text, but just some parts. Even if it was easier to focus on the music, the relationship music-text is so magnificently achieved by Beethoven that a lot of the effect is lost when playing just the music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 27, 2009, 03:29:45 PM
Schröter, Johann Samuel (c. 1752-1788) - Piano Sonatas, Op. 1 w/ Luigi Gerosa on a modern piano; my first disc of this composer's works (he was obviously short-lived and not much seems available) - posted earlier in the 'listening thread' which quickly was 'buried', as usual, w/o comments - thought that some discussion here would interest those into this period of music -  :D

About 1773, he settled in London and was befriended by JC Bach; when the younger Bach died in 1782, Schröter took over as music master to Queen Charlotte (name sake of Charlotte, North Carolina which I visit often - 90 mins from home), wife of George III (who lost the American colonies).  His style was influenced by JC Bach and looked back into the galant-roccoco style, which seems to be well reflected in this disc.  For a while, he was esteemed as the best pianist in England, although the arrival of Clementi overshadowed his fame and also changed the approach to piano playing and composing.

Schröter compositions seem to be limited:  1) 12 Concertos for piano & string orchestra; 2) Sonatas for piano/harpsichord  w/ an accompanying instrument; and 3) Keyboard sonatas, Op. 1; in a letter to his father in 1778, WA Mozart described the piano concertos as 'very beautiful' and wrote cadenzas for three of them.  I would really love to see these compositions offered on 'period' instruments!

Now, the other point of interest is Schröter's widow, Rebecca (1751-1826), who became a pupil of Joseph Haydn on his London visits, and apparently a love interest despite a 20 year difference in their ages; Haydn claims that he would have married her if possible - a little more of the story HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Schroeter), for those interested - and might be a stimulus for some more posting on Papa Haydn's love life -  ;) ;D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/661210892_EsmjY-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 27, 2009, 10:57:48 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on September 25, 2009, 04:28:41 AM
There is the overture, two arias, four intermezzi, music for the death of Clärchen, a melodrama for the death of Egmont and the final Symphony of Victory (that repeats the final part of the overture). Egmont is like the Eroica: it is "pure" Beethoven. Even if in your case the performance was not a complete one, Florestan, you must be happy and grateful to have listened live to those two beautiful arias! :D

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on September 29, 2009, 06:47:50 AM
Here's something for some fine Sunday, Gurnatron!

"Longueur" van Beethoven (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2009/09/back-to-ghana-ludwig-van-taffy.html)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2009, 07:45:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 29, 2009, 06:47:50 AM
Here's something for some fine Sunday, Gurnatron!

"Longueur" van Beethoven (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2009/09/back-to-ghana-ludwig-van-taffy.html)

Now, if they start off with Celi, they might could make TWO days out of it... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on September 29, 2009, 08:01:58 AM
 :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 06, 2009, 06:41:37 AM
Hammer, Franz Xaver (1741-1817) - Sonatas, Viola da Gamba w/ Simone Eckert & Hamburger Ratsmusik; instruments include Eckert on the Viola da Gamba, and others on Cello, Theorbo, and keyboard (harpsichord or fortepiano) -  posted the images below in the listening thread yesterday; a new arrival which was highly recommended in the American Record Guide - believe that I have just one other disc by this group, Hamburger Ratsmusik.

The liner notes are of interest and well done by Simone Eckert - she uses a period instrument built by J.U. Eberle, who was active in Prague in the second half of the 18th century.  Hammer became a cellist in the court orchestra of Prince Nikolaus I in 1771; of course, the Kapellmeister was Joseph Haydn, who along w/ the prince became fans of the new string player; apparently he was the second highest paid member of the band, just below Haydn, himself!  In 1778, he left that employment for reasons not explained.

The viola da gamba ('knee fiddle') gradually fell out of favor during the 18th century and was replaced by the cello; however, the instrument apparently was quite popular in its time.  Carl Abel & Anton Lidl were considered outstanding 'gamba' players, both dying in the late 1780s; the last (hence the name of the CD) of the great gambists were Joseph Fiala & Franz Hammer, passing away in 1816 & 1817, respectively. 

The works on this disc are nearly all by Hammer (a couple tracks of Carl Abel) - fun disc w/ old instruments and a transitional feeling of nostalgia while listening -  :D


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ecDwC2raT4w/ScnoiFPlGkI/AAAAAAAAB8U/T-teEwd1MyE/s400/cd-hammer-eckert+copia.jpg)  (http://www.fraenkischer-sommer.de/konzert/img/33_Hamburger_Ratsmusik.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2009, 07:15:34 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 06, 2009, 06:41:37 AM
Hammer, Franz Xaver (1741-1817) - Sonatas, Viola da Gamba w/ Simone Eckert & Hamburger Ratsmusik; instruments include Eckert on the Viola da Gamba, and others on Cello, Theorbo, and keyboard (harpsichord or fortepiano) -  posted the images below in the listening thread yesterday; a new arrival which was highly recommended in the American Record Guide - believe that I have just one other disc by this group, Hamburger Ratsmusik.

The liner notes are of interest and well done by Simone Eckert - she uses a period instrument built by J.U. Eberle, who was active in Prague in the second half of the 18th century.  Hammer became a cellist in the court orchestra of Prince Nikolaus I in 1771; of course, the Kapellmeister was Joseph Haydn, who along w/ the prince became fans of the new string player; apparently he was the second highest paid member of the band, just below Haydn, himself!  In 1778, he left that employment for reasons not explained.

The viola da gamba ('knee fiddle') gradually fell out of favor during the 18th century and was replaced by the cello; however, the instrument apparently was quite popular in its time.  Carl Abel & Anton Lidl were considered outstanding 'gamba' players, both dying in the late 1780s; the last (hence the name of the CD) of the great gambists were Joseph Fiala & Franz Hammer, passing away in 1816 & 1817, respectively. 

The works on this disc are nearly all by Hammer (a couple tracks of Carl Abel) - fun disc w/ old instruments and a transitional feeling of nostalgia while listening -  :D


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ecDwC2raT4w/ScnoiFPlGkI/AAAAAAAAB8U/T-teEwd1MyE/s400/cd-hammer-eckert+copia.jpg)  (http://www.fraenkischer-sommer.de/konzert/img/33_Hamburger_Ratsmusik.jpg)

Thanks for the most interesting post, Dave. Given his association with Esterhazy, I am chagrined that this is an entirely new name to me. I will certainly look into this disk. Some of the late gamba music, like that of Carl Stamitz, is really fine, and deserving of our attention. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2009, 09:10:50 AM
I wasn't aware that the viola da gamba compositions ran so late, cool Dave! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 06, 2009, 02:10:44 PM
Gurn & David - yes, I was unaware of Hammer until I read the ARG review and ordered the disc; then the liner notes provided much interesting information relative to his 'Haydn connection' - another interesting story was about an incident in the 'tavern' at the Eszterhaza Palace probably following a night of drinking much wine (sounds good to me!); Hammer was involved in a 'fracas' w/ the oboist Zacharias Pohl, whose eye was gouged out by Hammer w/ his ring - OUCH!  Haydn intervened and even asked Prince Nick to help in arbitrating the ensuing lawsuit - the story goes on in the notes!

I really enjoy the late 17th into the early 19th century not only for the variety and changing musical compositions, but equally for the development of these various instruments; just does not seem to be another era in which these musical instruments were not only changing dramatically but often co-existed, such as Hammer being a cellist & a viola da gamba player - so much to fascinate one's interest - Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 18, 2009, 11:45:59 AM
A few words to tell you about a very beautiful musical experience I had today: I attended the first performance of Grétry's Andromaque since, if I remember correctly, 1781. In general I've considered his music as a bit light, in the best style of opéra comique.

Such prejudices were totally destroyed by today's performance, for Andromaque resulted to be a tragédie in the style of the great operas of Gluck. I wouldn't doubt to qualify it as a masterpiece of classical French opera. Grétry got perfectly the dynamic sense of Gluck's tragedy, adding his own contributions: some very strange modulations, experimental textures, and even explorations in timbre that anticipate Méhul or Berlioz (the recitatives of Andromaque were often accompanied by three flutes, something quite unusual for those years). Really great music (and I can't understand how such a score could have been waiting for more than two centuries to be played again).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 18, 2009, 06:47:21 PM
Susan (i.e. Harpo) and I are on a 5-night vacation in the BIG APPLE - last night we met Bruce Hodges in our hotel bar for some drinks & snacks before going our separate ways to different concerts - just a wonderful visit - took a few pics which I hope to post in the thread related to meeting other GMGers!  :D

Our concert was at Carnegie Hall - the Takács Quartet playing Scuhmann - String Quartet, No. 1; Wolfgang Rihm - String Quartet, No. 11; and Beethoven - String Quartet, Op. 59, No. 1 - I guess the Schumann & Beethoven certainly belong in this thread;  Rihm, of course, is a living composer whom I have little experience - the work was in one movement, about 30+ mins in length, and commissioned for this group; probably my least favorite work of the evening - just don't know this composer.

Of course, my favorite for the evening was the Beethoven work - I have this group in ALL of the Ludwig's SQ works, so expected to enjoy, and was not disappointed - they have played these quartets so often and for so long that the playing just flowed beautifully from the instruments; two of the performers (Karoly Schranz on violin & Andras Fejer on cello) are from the 'original' group, which was formed in 1975 when they were students at the Franz Liszt Academy in Budapest; the quartet is now based at the University of Colorado in Boulder, although they perform many concerts worldwide; actually this is my second experience - we saw them in our North Carolina home town probably 20 or so yrs ago.  Overall, a wonderful experience to be in that building and the hear this group live again!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 19, 2009, 05:23:32 AM
Just as I subversively changed the subject of Gurn's thread to Bach, Dave one ups me by talking about Rihm, far removed from the Gurnian era. ;D  Well played Dave, well played. :)

Anyway it sounded like a splendid evening, I love the Takacs Quartet recordings of Beethoven's SQs, and you got to hear them live!!  Awesome! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 05:48:51 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on October 18, 2009, 11:45:59 AM
A few words to tell you about a very beautiful musical experience I had today: I attended the first performance of Grétry's Andromaque since, if I remember correctly, 1781. In general I've considered his music as a bit light, in the best style of opéra comique.

Such prejudices were totally destroyed by today's performance, for Andromaque resulted to be a tragédie in the style of the great operas of Gluck. I wouldn't doubt to qualify it as a masterpiece of classical French opera. Grétry got perfectly the dynamic sense of Gluck's tragedy, adding his own contributions: some very strange modulations, experimental textures, and even explorations in timbre that anticipate Méhul or Berlioz (the recitatives of Andromaque were often accompanied by three flutes, something quite unusual for those years). Really great music (and I can't understand how such a score could have been waiting for more than two centuries to be played again).

Sounds like a very interesting evening, Gabriel. Grétry is one of those composers that one seems to hear much about, yet never hears anything by. Certainly that is in my case. Other than the usual "Variations on a Theme by Grétry" sort of stuff, one has to dig pretty deeply to find anything to listen to. I'm pleased that you got the opportunity, and envious that I didn't... :D  Of course, there is little or no chance that this was recorded for wider distribution, so perhaps it will be another <>228 years before it is heard again? :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 05:54:31 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 18, 2009, 06:47:21 PM
Susan (i.e. Harpo) and I are on a 5-night vacation in the BIG APPLE - last night we met Bruce Hodges in our hotel bar for some drinks & snacks before going our separate ways to different concerts - just a wonderful visit - took a few pics which I hope to post in the thread related to meeting other GMGers!  :D

Our concert was at Carnegie Hall - the Takács Quartet playing Scuhmann - String Quartet, No. 1; Wolfgang Rihm - String Quartet, No. 11; and Beethoven - String Quartet, Op. 59, No. 1 - I guess the Schumann & Beethoven certainly belong in this thread;  Rihm, of course, is a living composer whom I have little experience - the work was in one movement, about 30+ mins in length, and commissioned for this group; probably my least favorite work of the evening - just don't know this composer.

Of course, my favorite for the evening was the Beethoven work - I have this group in ALL of the Ludwig's SQ works, so expected to enjoy, and was not disappointed - they have played these quartets so often and for so long that the playing just flowed beautifully from the instruments; two of the performers (Karoly Schranz on violin & Andras Fejer on cello) are from the 'original' group, which was formed in 1975 when they were students at the Franz Liszt Academy in Budapest; the quartet is now based at the University of Colorado in Boulder, although they perform many concerts worldwide; actually this is my second experience - we saw them in our North Carolina home town probably 20 or so yrs ago.  Overall, a wonderful experience to be in that building and the hear this group live again!  :)

Very nice way to spend the weekend, Dave. Carnegie Hall has got to be where I would enjoy my concert experience too. I have seen so many televised concerts from there over the years that seeing it in person is mandatory by now. And a nice concert too. Rihm is one of my very favorite modern composers, and Beethoven and Schumann aren't bad either. Unlike a few of our little community here, I even prefer the Op 59 over some of the later SQ's. Nice blood and guts music. :)  I hope you took a chance to let the Takacs know that they play the Schubert Quintet too damned slow, though... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 19, 2009, 06:03:56 AM
Yes, even Billy Joel has performed in Carnegie Hall  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 06:17:17 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2009, 06:03:56 AM
Yes, even Billy Joel has performed in Carnegie Hall  8)

Period instruments, I hope... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 19, 2009, 08:18:01 AM
I was listening to Haydn's Baryton trios and was quite engaged, and loved the sound of the instrument... but I must admit it's been so long I forgot a baryton is, were there previous posts on this forum written about the instrument? :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 08:20:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 19, 2009, 08:18:01 AM
I was listening to Haydn's Baryton trios and was quite engaged, and loved the sound of the instrument... but I must admit it's been so long I forgot a baryton is, were there previous posts on this forum written about the instrument? :)

I'm positive there are, don't have time to dig right now, but if you haven't found or posted something by later on, I'll do some up. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 19, 2009, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 05:48:51 AM
Sounds like a very interesting evening, Gabriel. Grétry is one of those composers that one seems to hear much about, yet never hears anything by. Certainly that is in my case. Other than the usual "Variations on a Theme by Grétry" sort of stuff, one has to dig pretty deeply to find anything to listen to. I'm pleased that you got the opportunity, and envious that I didn't... :D  Of course, there is little or no chance that this was recorded for wider distribution, so perhaps it will be another <>228 years before it is heard again? :-\

8)

Yesternight's performance of Andromaque, tonight's in Brussels at the Palais des Beaux-Arts (both in concert version) and several ones next year in the Schwetzinger Festspiele (staged) are announced in Glossa Music's webpage. I can presume that they will cleverly record a CD or a DVD, but I guess it would be done once they are more used to the work (so for next year in Germany).

Next year Zémire et Azor and L'amant jaloux will be performed in Paris (Opéra Comique). I'll try not to miss them.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 09:36:03 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on October 19, 2009, 08:48:21 AM
Yesternight's performance of Andromaque, tonight's in Brussels at the Palais des Beaux-Arts (both in concert version) and several ones next year in the Schwetzinger Festspiele (staged) are announced in Glossa Music's webpage. I can presume that they will cleverly record a CD or a DVD, but I guess it would be done once they are more used to the work (so for next year in Germany).

Next year Zémire et Azor and L'amant jaloux will be performed in Paris (Opéra Comique). I'll try not to miss them.

Ho, that would be great. Maybe even come available over here. So far, whatever operas that I have enjoyed (except for Carmen, of course) have all been from the Classical Era. So a few more to hear and see, that would be excellent. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 09:41:20 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 19, 2009, 08:18:01 AM
I was listening to Haydn's Baryton trios and was quite engaged, and loved the sound of the instrument... but I must admit it's been so long I forgot a baryton is, were there previous posts on this forum written about the instrument? :)

(http://www.timegoesby.net/.a/6a00d8341c85cd53ef0120a566deef970c-800wi)

The Baryton

CLASSIFICATION:   

Chordophone, Bowed Stringed Instrument

HISTORY:    
The baryton is a bowed stringed instrument similar to the bass viol. It is a hybrid instrument based on the Baroque bass viol and includes features of the Lyra viol and the Bandora (a metal-strung plucked bass instrument). The instrument is bowed like a bass viol and simultaneously plucked from behind the fingerboard. The strings behind the fingerboard also act as sympathetic strings that will resonate along with the frequencies from the bowed strings. These unique features provided a rich palate of sounds for the composer and musician. Originally, the baryton was performed with the bowed strings playing the melody while the plucked strings provided the accompaniment. In later years, it became less common to hear both sets of strings played simultaneously, especially in chamber music. The two sets of strings were more likely to be performed in alternation. The original baroque practice of playing a melody with accomaniment was left to only the most skilled performers.

The baryton was said to have been invented in England by Daniel Farrant, but that is of some debate. It is clear that versions of the baryton were in existance early in the 17th century in Germany (c. 1618) and England (c. 1608). By the 18th century, baryton parts were notated in the treble clef, sounding an octave below. Numbers below the staff indicated the strings to be plucked. The plucked strings were indicated from lowest to highest in this period.

Austria and southern Germany was where the baryton was most developed. Most notably in the court of Prince Nicolaus Esterházy. Court composer Franz Joseph Haydn composed numerous chamber works for the baryton as his patron, Prince Nicolaus, was an amateur musician who played the baryton. Haydn composed for baryton between 1765 and 1778 and a common baryton trio included the baryton, viola and cello. By 1800, the baryton was still in use, but it's popularity was waning. The baryton is also know by several other names and variations of those names including bariton, barydon, paradon, paridon, pariton, viola paradon, viola di bordoni, viola di bardone, and Viola di Bordone.

Although the baryton was seldom heard in concert by the end of the 19th century, there was a late 20th-century revival with a number of composers writing new compositions for the baryton. Additionally, the International Baryton Society was formed in 1992 to coordinate and promote baryton research and performance.
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION:   

The baryton is a large instrument, similar to a bass viol. Often known as the "instrument of kings", most barytons are highly ornamented with decorative carvings. This includes carved scrolls, (often in the shape of heads and painted), and inlays using ivory, ebony or mother-of-pearl. Early descriptions of the baryton indicated that it was a bass viol with the addition of wire strings to make the sound better. There are three basic versions of the baryton found today; Baroque, Classical and revival.

The Baroque baryton has six bowed gut strings (like a bass viol) over a very broad neck with a fingerboard with seven frets (known as the upper manual). The fingerboard is hollowed in the rear to accommodate as many as twenty sympathetic strings (known as the lower manual). Originally, the baryton had nine metal bass strings in the lower manual that ran parallel to the fingerboard on the and were plucked from behind the neck with the left thumb. They provided the baryton with the capability to simultaneously play melody and accompaniment while enhancing the sound by sympathetic resonance. The number and pitch range of the metal plucked strings was later increased and sometimes a third manual, with gut strings, was added.

The Classical baryton was used extensively in the Esterházy court during the 1760s and 70s with around 170 compositions by court composer Franz Joseph Haydn. The lower manual was tuned to the same pitch range as the upper four strings of the upper manual with a seventh bowed string and a lower manual of 15 or more metal strings. The strings in the lower manual were connected to individual bridges and tuned with tuning pegs from the head of the instrument. Later in the century, up to 44 lower-manual strings were used on some barytons.

The revival baryton closely resembles the Esterházy instrument. This was a heavier instrument, but, was soon replaced by lighter instruments.

SOUND PROPERTIES:   
The sound of the baryton is like that of a bass viol with the sympathetic strings providing a unique and warm resonance. When the strings of the lower manual are plucked, they create an effect of a lute accompaniment.

RANGE:    
Typically, the six bowed strings in the upper manual are tuned like those of the bass viol, D - G - c - e - a1 - d1, but it was common that the baryton also used scordatura tunings. The sympathetic strings in the lower manual are tuned in diatonic or chromatic progression, and since there were numerous variations in the number of strings in the lower manual, there is no standard tuning for this manual.


Of course, this information is all stolen from various websites.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 19, 2009, 12:44:41 PM
Thanks dude! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on October 20, 2009, 03:29:47 AM
Fantastic write-up, Gurn!  I have some of Haydn's music for this unique and rich instrument and enjoy it very much.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2009, 06:57:23 AM
Gurn - thanks for bringing all of that information together on the Baryton - enjoyed the read!  :)

A couple of years ago when I was getting more into purchasing baryton recordings, I had an itch for acquiring one to put in our living room w/ the rest of Susan's instruments; no plan to learn to play - would just look cool sitting there w/ the harps & guitars!

Well, I contacted Jeremy Brooker of the 'International Baryton Society' and we exchanged several messages; basically a complicated instrument to build (i.e. professional needed was my interpreatation) and quite expensive, so I gave up the quest - below quoted is one of his responses to me that might be of interest - Dave

QuoteDear Dave,

Really, building a baryton is a bit of a nightmare and not to be embaked on lightly. The most complicated string instrument there is! No one has published drawings, so there is also a lot of research to consider different models. The baryton never reached a definitive form, but evolved continuously over its long history. I have 3 different barytons, and if finances ever permit would like to commission another...

Most modern players go for a Classical baryton, which has the most accessible repertoire (Haydn mostly- wonderful music, and well worth the trouble of playing it!) and most of it easily playable by someone who already plays viola da gamba. A suitable instrument would need 6 bowed strings and 9 plucked.

Not sure how useful this is, but wish you every success!

Best wishes,
Jeremy Brooker
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2009, 11:21:29 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 20, 2009, 06:57:23 AM
Gurn - thanks for bringing all of that information together on the Baryton - enjoyed the read!  :)

A couple of years ago when I was getting more into purchasing baryton recordings, I had an itch for acquiring one to put in our living room w/ the rest of Susan's instruments; no plan to learn to play - would just look cool sitting there w/ the harps & guitars!

Well, I contacted Jeremy Brooker of the 'International Baryton Society' and we exchanged several messages; basically a complicated instrument to build (i.e. professional needed was my interpreatation) and quite expensive, so I gave up the quest - below quoted is one of his responses to me that might be of interest - Dave


In a baryton-related PM just the other day, I joked to someone that you had a home-made one in your living room... never realized I was anywhere close. :D

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on October 20, 2009, 03:29:47 AM
Fantastic write-up, Gurn!  I have some of Haydn's music for this unique and rich instrument and enjoy it very much.

All stolen, Sorin, but I'm pleased with the quality of the booty this time, past efforts have netted very little in the way of solid info that this has. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 81 Quartet in G for Strings Op 77 #1 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 21, 2009, 06:20:44 AM
Just obtained and am listening to the discs shown below - have one other disc of this composer's symphonies - thought that a short bio w/ a more detailed link might interest some in this important mid-18th century composer - have not checked back on the pages in this thread, so hopefully not much duplication.  A thread on him was started by Newman w/ only himself responding - maybe I'll paste this post there to generate some interest!  :)

Josef Mysliveček (1737-1781) was a Czech composer born in Prague; he left for Venice in 1763 to study opera composition. In the 1770s, he was on friendly terms w/ the Mozart family, which ended in 1778 when he failed to obtain an opera commission in Naples for Wolfie. Mysliveček was also known as Il Boemo (The Bohemian) - apparently the Italians had a difficult time pronouncing his name! He died destitute in Rome in 1781.

Mysliveček contributed to the formation of late 18th century classical music, especially in his symphonic and wind writing.  In the 1770s, during Mozart's visits, some of the stylistic aspects of the older composer's writing certainly influenced the younger Wolfgang.  Il Boemo was a prolific composer - his works include 26 operas, oratorios, cantatas, and other vocal works. He composed nearly 50 symphonies, which are often in a short Italian overture form (such as the works on the disc shown).  He also wrote dozens of concertos and chamber works for one or more instruments, including string quartets/quintets and wind quintets & octets.

More detail of his life (including a disfiguring nose malady, likely syphilis) and a listing of his works can be found in a this Wiki rticle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Myslive%C4%8Dek). A new book entitled Josef Myslivecek, "Il Boemo": The Man and His Music by Daniel Freeman & Susan Parisi was published this year - may see if I can obtain a library copy.   

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/687126242_Zu256-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/687126254_DSiut-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 21, 2009, 06:45:03 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 21, 2009, 06:20:44 AM
Mysliveček was also known as Il Boemo (The Bohemian) - apparently the Italians had a difficult time pronouncing his name!

It might have been easier if they re-spelled it Mislivecieccho  8)

Quote from: SonicManHe died destitute in Rome in 1781.

Pity about the destitution, but Rome is a great place to tarry!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on October 21, 2009, 07:40:00 AM
QuoteMysliveček contributed to the formation of late 18th century classical music, especially in his symphonic and wind writing.  In the 1770s, during Mozart's visits, some of the stylistic aspects of the older composer's writing certainly influenced the younger Wolfgang.  Il Boemo was a prolific composer - his works include 26 operas, oratorios, cantatas, and other vocal works. He composed nearly 50 symphonies, which are often in a short Italian overture form (such as the works on the disc shown).  He also wrote dozens of concertos and chamber works for one or more instruments, including string quartets/quintets and wind quintets & octets.

An entirely new composer for me, but sounds like one I would enjoy checking out.  Thanks for bringing this music to our attention.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 08:07:46 AM
Quote from: Franco on October 21, 2009, 07:40:00 AM
An entirely new composer for me, but sounds like one I would enjoy checking out.  Thanks for bringing this music to our attention.

A nice beginning is this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MNEWQ0Q8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

which was first recommended to me by Don Bulldog. All the works on here are very nice, good intros to Spohr, Viotti and Myslivecek for those who don't know them well, and a nice, rarely recorded piece by Schubert too. Walffisch is her typical excellent fiddler self. :)

Amazon has it here (http://www.amazon.com/Elizabeth-Wallfisch-Myslivecek-Viotti-Schubert/dp/B0000BX5L7/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1256141068&sr=1-1-spell)


8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on October 21, 2009, 08:19:35 AM
Thanks for that suggestion, Gurn, looks interesting.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 21, 2009, 01:10:12 PM
Quote from: Franco on October 21, 2009, 07:40:00 AM
An entirely new composer for me, but sounds like one I would enjoy checking out.  Thanks for bringing this music to our attention.

Hi Franco - the other disc that I own is shown below, left - Concerto Köln performing Symphonies & Overtures; since Myslivecek wrote 45 or so of these works and the numbering system is somewhat confusing, I'm not sure at the moment 'how much' if any overlap is present w/ the Chandos CD that I showed earlier?

BTW - the Violin Concerto recording was just superb, so I put in an order for Vol. 2 by the same performers!  :D


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DmLYsvIIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41R9eQjGqgL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 21, 2009, 06:43:50 PM
Below is a post that I left in the 'Listening Thread' which will likely be buried soon w/ little response, so I'm quoted it below - for those who love the 'classical period' and Mozart, these new recordings by Mackerras are just wonderful - all that I can add from the description below is that one has to hear them on a good stereo system w/ the volume up!  :D

QuoteMozart, WA - Symphonies, Nos. 38-41 - 2 CD set w/ Mackerras & the Scottish Chamber Orchestra (below, left); now I already own the complete Telarc set (below, right) w/ Mackerras, but this new release (2007 recording date) received such superlative reviews (and at a great price for 2 discs) that I had to hear the performances - MusicWeb Review HERE (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/Apr08/Mozart_Mackerras_ckd308.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/Apr08/Mozart_Mackerras_ckd308.htm&usg=__zG-Fqr78UoW2tvQ20Y4x6lQFBSw=&h=266&w=300&sz=25&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=FYUDrLAFqE4PYM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmozart%2Bmackerras%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_enUS343US343%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1) -  :)

Susan is off to choir rehersal tonight and left me a dinner to re-heat - I have this recording 'con blasto' and cannot eat @ the moment!  ;D

Boy, I've not done a comparison yet w/ his earlier recordings of these final Mozart Symphonies, but this recording on Linn Records is just demonstration quality!  The sound & balance are perfect, the individual instruments (esp. the winds) just 'pop out' of the speakers, and the interpretation by Mackerras bespeaks (note - I never use this word!) of exuding experience w/ this music.  If you are a Mozart fan & love his last symphonic works, this is a MUST listening, if not a purchase.   8)

P.S. - now off to heat up my dinner!  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/687126224_8NWzT-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660459_QWgCo-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 22, 2009, 03:37:03 AM
Hey Dave, if you don't want a listening post to not be buried, post it in The Classical Chat Thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13493.0.html) instead. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2009, 04:27:32 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 21, 2009, 06:43:50 PM
Below is a post that I left in the 'Listening Thread' which will likely be buried soon w/ little response, so I'm quoted it below - for those who love the 'classical period' and Mozart, these new recordings by Mackerras are just wonderful - all that I can add from the description below is that one has to hear them on a good stereo system w/ the volume up!  :D


Thanks for pointing this disk out, Dave. I also have and greatly enjoy the Telarc set, so I wasn't paying proper attention when this one came along. Need to check it out. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 22, 2009, 04:32:24 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2009, 04:27:32 AM
Thanks for pointing this disk out, Dave. I also have and greatly enjoy the Telarc set, so I wasn't paying proper attention when this one came along. Need to check it out. :)

8)

But you also have Hogwood!  Wait you broke your collecting rule for Mozart didn't you? ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2009, 05:08:29 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 22, 2009, 04:32:24 AM
But you also have Hogwood!  Wait you broke your collecting rule for Mozart didn't you? ;D

Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven. But hey, that's just 3 out of dozens, nay, hundreds of composers. So a minor rule break is OK. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2009, 06:26:07 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2009, 05:08:29 AM
Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven. But hey, that's just 3 out of dozens, nay, hundreds of composers. So a minor rule break is OK. :)

David - don't believe that I've posted yet in that 'chat thread' - will need to join!  :D

But, I'm like Gurn - with the above composers + Bach, I do own up to 3 versions of many of their works (maybe 4 sets of LvB's Symphonies?); otherwise usually just one or rarely 2 duplications w/ others.  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 22, 2009, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 22, 2009, 06:26:07 AM
David - don't believe that I've posted yet in that 'chat thread' - will need to join!  :D

But, I'm like Gurn - with the above composers + Bach, I do own up to 3 versions of many of their works (maybe 4 sets of LvB's Symphonies?); otherwise usually just one or rarely 2 duplications w/ others.  Dave

Interesting. :)  I indulge in multiplerecorditis alot more often even for minor composers like Schnittke and Bax, well at least in the past.  I'll probably head that way again, I'm just so much into rehearing music and hearing new things that I haven't obsessed over it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on October 22, 2009, 06:41:58 AM
Frankly, with the older literature, especially the Classical period, I don't see the wisdom in not having at least a dozen different conductors or ensembles in the major works.  Probably two dozen is more realisitic.  The music is so familiar, all that is left are interpretative differences.  And it goes without saying that there is hardly any point in investing in other than the "Big Name" composers, i.e. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven - after all the minor lights pale in comparison, so instead of buying one of their mediocre symphonies, it makes much more sense to buy another conductor's take on one of the genius' Opi.

(Is there an emoticon for sarcasm?)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2009, 07:06:04 AM
Quote from: Franco on October 22, 2009, 06:41:58 AM
Frankly, with the older literature, especially the Classical period, I don't see the wisdom in not having at least a dozen different conductors or ensembles in the major works.  Probably two dozen is more realisitic.  The music is so familiar, all that is left are interpretative differences.  And it goes without saying that there is hardly any point in investing in other than the "Big Name" composers, i.e. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven - after all the minor lights pale in comparison, so instead of buying one of their mediocre symphonies, it makes much more sense to buy another conductor's take on one of the genius' Opi.

(Is there an emoticon for sarcasm?)

I use this one:  :P

It can be a lifesaver when making a post like that. ;D

But as I noted elsewhere, I don't have the curiosity (I guess you could call it) to find out who in the world did the (totally subjective) "best" recording of something, when I can otherwise be delighted with what I have and try something totally new to me instead. To each his own, of course... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 24, 2009, 03:21:05 AM
I finally bought Jacobs' recording of Haydn's Die Schöpfung. It is an excellent recording, but it is not one step ahead the other available ones, as it happened with his Seasons and the Mozart operas recorded so far. In my opinion, it is not the fault of Jacobs, but simply the fact that this work has been recorded more times and has been well served by discography. However, if Jacobs is not "over" the other versions, this recording is clearly at the top, together with Hengelbrock and some others.

In fact, Jacobs doesn't sound too "radical", as he often sounds when he performs classical works (Hengelbrock sounds sometimes to me more radical than Jacobs). But there are clear signs of Jacobs' "touch": for instance, the inventive lines of the pianoforte in the recitatives. I guess they can bother some listeners, most of all in an oratorio; my reaction was most of all of surprise.

I also purchased another recording by Jacobs: Gluck's Le Cinesi. A very nice short stage work, with some excellent early-classical music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 27, 2009, 04:11:36 AM
A great friend on the West Coast sent a recently redundanted disc of Ries's Symphonies nos. 4 & 6.  I might have known that this disc was what essentially encouraged him to go ahead and buy the whole set.  Still, I let it sit on my desk for a week or more before I could get around to listening to any of it.  Listened to much of the Sixth Symphony last night;  very nice, well written, just plain good music.  To state the obvious, the music is generally in the style of Beethoven, but not quite of Beethoven's character.  If the music is shy of great, I don't think this is strictly a matter of 'deviation from Beethoven's character' (since a composer must be allowed character of his own).

I'll be listening to this again, and in its entirety, which is actually better than I quite expected when popping the disc in (I half-expected a later-generation Vanhal)  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 27, 2009, 07:54:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 27, 2009, 04:11:36 AM
A great friend on the West Coast sent a recently redundanted disc of Ries's Symphonies nos. 4 & 6.  I might have known that this disc was what essentially encouraged him to go ahead and buy the whole set.  Still, I let it sit on my desk for a week or more before I could get around to listening to any of it.  Listened to much of the Sixth Symphony last night;  very nice, well written, just plain good music.  To state the obvious, the music is generally in the style of Beethoven, but not quite of Beethoven's character.  If the music is shy of great, I don't think this is strictly a matter of 'deviation from Beethoven's character' (since a composer must be allowed character of his own).

I'll be listening to this again, and in its entirety, which is actually better than I quite expected when popping the disc in (I half-expected a later-generation Vanhal)  8)

Thanks, Karl, for this review. I've been thinking of purchasing the Ries symphonies for a while, but I've given priority to the exploration of other composers' works.

And about Vanhal, I guess I haven't found yet any direct musical heir! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on October 27, 2009, 08:02:02 AM
I am awaiting delivery of a disc of Piano Quartets by Ries, so, I am now even more eagerly looking forward to its arrival.

Thanks, Karl.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on October 27, 2009, 02:10:29 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 08:07:46 AM
A nice beginning is this disk:

which was first recommended to me by Don Bulldog. All the works on here are very nice, good intros to Spohr, Viotti and Myslivecek for those who don't know them well, and a nice, rarely recorded piece by Schubert too. Walffisch is her typical excellent fiddler self. :)

That's really a fantastic disc, I have it myself.  The highlight for me was the Viotti: an excellent A Minor violin concerto!

About the Scottish Chamber Orchestra: I'm under the impression they're using rotary valved brass, but steel strings.  I can certainly hear clear period brass in their rendition of Beethoven's Fidelio.  Can I assume their much-lauded Mozart symphonies feature the same?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 05:12:36 PM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on October 27, 2009, 02:10:29 PM
That's really a fantastic disc, I have it myself.  The highlight for me was the Viotti: an excellent A Minor violin concerto!

About the Scottish Chamber Orchestra: I'm under the impression they're using rotary valved brass, but steel strings.  I can certainly hear clear period brass in their rendition of Beethoven's Fidelio.  Can I assume their much-lauded Mozart symphonies feature the same?

Sorin,
Yes, that's a very nice Viotti piece on there. People can say whatever they want about Bulldog, but I owe him for that rec... ;D

I have always been under the impression that the Scottish CO were purely modern. Never heard their "Fidelio" though... I have the Prague/Mackerras, still my favorite modern instrument Mozart. Wouldn't mind to hear the Scots though... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hsu Miller Arico - Hob 11 097 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello 5th, 6th & 7th mvmts - Adagio - Menuet - Fuga: Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2009, 05:50:45 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 08:07:46 AM
A nice beginning is this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MNEWQ0Q8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61hqNPOaiFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

which was first recommended ........good intros to Spohr, Viotti and Myslivecek for those who don't know them well, and a nice, rarely recorded piece by Schubert too. Walffisch is her typical excellent fiddler self. :)

Now, Guys - this Helios one disc introduction to ALL of these composers is just an ort to the offerings of these composers - inserted above is another collection of Spohr's Violin Concertos - 6 discs - just a wonderful collection; Viotti may have even more of these works!  I don't own as much, but plenty available!  And, as to composer under discussion, Myslivecek, the first CD that I posted was just excellent, and the 2nd volume is on its way - bottom line is that these composers wrote some just wonderful violin music; if you purchase that 'sampler' disc and enjoy, please explore more of these works -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 06:01:04 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 27, 2009, 05:50:45 PM
Now, Guys - this Helios one disc introduction to ALL of these composers is just an ort to the offerings of these composers - inserted above is another collection of Spohr's Violin Concertos - 6 discs - just a wonderful collection; Viotti may have even more of these works!  I don't own as much, but plenty available!  And, as to composer under discussion, Myslivecek, the first CD that I posted was just excellent, and the 2nd volume is on its way - bottom line is that these composers wrote some just wonderful violin music; if you purchase that 'sampler' disc and enjoy, please explore more of these works -  :D

Dave,
Yeah, I have some individual disks out of that Spohr set. Of course, violin was his instrument, and the concerto was his vehicle to fame, so if you expect very good, you won't be disappointed. Same is true with Viotti, although I am not aware of a complete set like the Spohr one. Pity, Viotti was a huge influence on the French Violin School which dominated the first half of the 19th century.

I was just going with the sampler in order to try to give something that would appeal to everyone, not just us 'completist' kind of guys. :D

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 25 Quartet in E for Strings Op 17 #1 2nd mvmt - Menuet
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2009, 06:10:09 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 06:01:04 PM
Dave,
Yeah, I have some individual disks out of that Spohr set. Of course, violin was his instrument, and the concerto was his vehicle to fame, so if you expect very good, you won't be disappointed. Same is true with Viotti, although I am not aware of a complete set like the Spohr one. Pity, Viotti was a huge influence on the French Violin School which dominated the first half of the 19th century.

I was just going with the sampler in order to try to give something that would appeal to everyone, not just us 'completist' kind of guys. :Dt

Good evening, Gurn - great to start w/ a 'sampler' - the Spohr set is excellent; I need to explore Viotti more - just not sure at the moment, what may be available?  I guess my 'bottom line' is that those who may enjoy these works on a sampler disc, explore them more thoroughly - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 27, 2009, 06:10:09 PM


Good evening, Gurn - great to start w/ a 'sampler' - the Spohr set is excellent; I need to explore Viotti more - just not sure at the moment, what may be available?  I guess my 'bottom line' is that those who may enjoy these works on a sampler disc, explore them more thoroughly - Dave  :)

Back at'cha, Dave.

I haven't really dug into Viotti to the extent he deserves. I have this disk, plus a Naxos one that his 2 sinfonia concertantes and 1 concerto on it. I like the music, but I didn't care for that disk at all, the performance was sleepytime.... :-\   However, it is very unlikely that there aren't some butt-kicking Viotti disks out there. Perhaps Gabriel, who now shares an adopted homeland with Viotti, has run across something commendable. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 25 Quartet in E for Strings Op 17 #1 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2009, 06:28:30 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 06:14:58 PM
......... there aren't some butt-kicking Viotti disks out there. Perhaps Gabriel, who now shares an adopted homeland with Viotti, has run across something commendable. :)


Lookin' forward to any Viotti recommendations that can be made - need to acquire more of his works!  :)

BTW, for those interested in Mozart's Clarinet Works, I've been listening to a 'new' acquisition shown below w/ Fröst on the clarinet - just superb performances - discussed in the thread on Mozart & clarinet and a recommendation by Hornteacher - own the same clarinetist in some Brahms works - a recommendation!  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartFrostQConc/694026567_Sex3d-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 28, 2009, 03:28:38 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 06:14:58 PM
However, it is very unlikely that there aren't some butt-kicking Viotti disks out there. Perhaps Gabriel, who now shares an adopted homeland with Viotti, has run across something commendable. :)

Unfortunately - and shamefully - I don't have any CDs by Viotti. I had once in my hands a set of complete violin concertos released by Dynamic, I doubted about buying it... and I didn't. I hope to get it one day (as well as the Spohr set).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 28, 2009, 03:30:43 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 27, 2009, 06:28:30 PM
BTW, for those interested in Mozart's Clarinet Works, I've been listening to a 'new' acquisition shown below w/ Fröst on the clarinet - just superb performances - discussed in the thread on Mozart & clarinet and a recommendation by Hornteacher - own the same clarinetist in some Brahms works - a recommendation!  :)

Dave, I have Fröst's recording of the Crusell clarinet concertos, and I was really impressed. Totally recommended (the Crusell concertos are extraordinary works, by the way).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 04:16:40 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on October 28, 2009, 03:28:38 AM
Unfortunately - and shamefully - I don't have any CDs by Viotti.

Unless I'm missing something . . . there ain't no shame in that.

;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2009, 04:33:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2009, 04:16:40 AM
Unless I'm missing something . . . there ain't no shame in that.

;)

Well, sometimes you do miss a thing or two, Karl. It's OK, as they say in Boston "there ain't no shame in that". :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 04:39:30 AM
 ;D

Not saying that Viotti is banned in Boston.  (For all I know, he gets lots of play on WCRB . . . .)

>:D 0:) ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2009, 04:50:02 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2009, 04:39:30 AM
;D

Not saying that Viotti is banned in Boston.  (For all I know, he gets lots of play on WCRB . . . .)

>:D 0:) ;)

Yes, but doesn't that fall into the "damn with faint praise" category?  ;)

Viotti deserves better. Just sayin'...

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 05:00:56 AM
Well, the first movement of that there G.98 . . . surprisingly Mozartean, is it not?  ;)

The sound clips promise a nice, enjoyable listen.

But . . . a lack of recordings, shameful?  I cannot endorse this confusion of shame with regret  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 05:07:06 AM
Nice flute quartets, too, I should think.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2009, 05:07:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2009, 05:00:56 AM
Well, the first movement of that there G.98 . . . surprisingly Mozartean, is it not?  ;)

The sound clips promise a nice, enjoyable listen.

But . . . a lack of recordings, shameful?  I cannot endorse this confusion of shame with regret  0:)

Ah yes, that was regrettable...

I guess I thought you were Dittersdorfing Viotti... :D

G 98?  ¿Que?

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 05:11:21 AM
Dittersdorfing Viotti? Not I!  Lucchesifying him, maybe.

G.98 is one of them there Violin Concerti (№ 23)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2009, 05:19:47 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2009, 05:11:21 AM
Dittersdorfing Viotti? Not I!  Lucchesifying him, maybe.

G.98 is one of them there Violin Concerti (№ 23)

Oh, well in that case... :)

Ah. I only ever called it #23... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 05:31:14 AM
If wikipedia is reliable, it seems that the chap who catalogued Viotti's works was Remo Giazotto.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2009, 06:05:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2009, 05:31:14 AM
If wikipedia is reliable, it seems that the chap who catalogued Viotti's works was Remo Giazotto.

Man, I don't know... guys named 'Remo' always make me a little flitty... :-\

I suppose in this instance, we can extend them a bit of credibility. Who could have made that up?   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on October 28, 2009, 06:07:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2009, 05:19:47 AM
Oh, well in that case... :)

Ah. I only ever called it #23... :-\

8)

It should be illegal to composer more than 20 concerti for the same instrument that is not the piano.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 06:08:41 AM
Finding Remo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on October 28, 2009, 06:13:05 AM
Quote from: springrite on October 28, 2009, 06:07:54 AM
It should be illegal to composer more than 20 concerti for the same instrument that is not the piano.

But at the same time one should be allowed to write the same concerto four-hundred times over.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2009, 06:14:00 AM
Quote from: springrite on October 28, 2009, 06:07:54 AM
It should be illegal to composer more than 20 concerti for the same instrument that is not the piano.

Of course, that makes one wonder if one could have tolerated a Viotti piano concerto or not... Nor does it take into account the millions of us (OK, dozens of us) who prefer the violin to the piano. Any day of the week, buddy!  >:(     0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: vanessa_zang on October 28, 2009, 06:17:21 AM
Back of, Springy! Gurn is a moderator!


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 06:20:08 AM
Keep him honest, Vanessa!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 06:21:06 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2009, 06:14:00 AM
Of course, that makes one wonder if one could have tolerated a Viotti piano concerto or not... Nor does it take into account the millions of us (OK, dozens of us) who prefer the violin to the piano. Any day of the week, buddy!  >:(     0:)

8)

I think Paul was just looking for a ready revenue stream . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on October 28, 2009, 06:21:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2009, 06:20:08 AM
Keep him honest, Vanessa!  :)

Truth be told, I think Vanessa is one of the dozens Gurn talked about!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 28, 2009, 08:52:18 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on October 28, 2009, 03:28:38 AM
Unfortunately - and shamefully - I don't have any CDs by Viotti. I had once in my hands a set of complete violin concertos released by Dynamic, I doubted about buying it... and I didn't. I hope to get it one day (as well as the Spohr set).

Gabriel - after I posted here last night, I checked my CD collection - knowing for sure that I had one Viotti disc of Violin Concertos; well WRONG - absolutely nothing - thought that I was collecting some when I bought the box of Sporhr's works - so, will be doing some looking around and waiting for recommendations; doubt that all 29 or so of these Viotti compositions are available?  Dave  :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 28, 2009, 08:58:03 AM
Arkivmusic.com (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/main.jsp) carries some 38 recordings of Viotti — who is even listed on the 'front-ish' page of Most Popular Composers : V (which, admittedly, includes the composer Various Artists) . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 28, 2009, 09:11:39 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2009, 08:58:03 AM
Arkivmusic.com (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/main.jsp) carries some 38 recordings of Viotti — who is even listed on the 'front-ish' page of Most Popular Composers : V (which, admittedly, includes the composer Various Artists) . . . .

Karl - yes, seems to be plenty available w/ many on the Dynamic label mentioned by Gabriel - but Arkiv wants $20 each (where is Brilliant when one needs them!) - but the two below 'peaked' my interest for starters - anyone heard these discs?  Thanks - Dave  :)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/05/55018.JPG)  (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/21/217460.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 28, 2009, 05:26:07 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 28, 2009, 04:16:40 AM
Unless I'm missing something . . . there ain't no shame in that.

;)

Well, I guess I should say I suppose it can be shameful, Karl! ;) I mean that they are considered as important compositions, and sometimes I buy CDs about obscure classical composers who are seldom mentioned even by Gurn. ;D

Quote from: SonicMan on October 28, 2009, 08:52:18 AM
Gabriel - after I posted here last night, I checked my CD collection - knowing for sure that I had one Viotti disc of Violin Concertos; well WRONG - absolutely nothing - thought that I was collecting some when I bought the box of Sporhr's works - so, will be doing some looking around and waiting for recommendations; doubt that all 29 or so of these Viotti compositions are available?  Dave  :-[ ;D

Dave, I guess this situation suggests a simultaneous exploration of this shamefully neglected repertoire! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 29, 2009, 05:21:32 PM
Hmmm - no Viotti recommendations or comments so far -  :'(  Can we ask Harry to convince Brilliant to put all of those Dynamic recordings mentioned by Gabriel into a BIG box?   ;) ;D

Well, tonight finishing up on a recent acquisition of Wolfie's last 20 Symphonies - post duplicated below from the 'Listening Thread' - I already own the Mackerras box, so have the early works & alternate performances of the later ones; now, just would like to obtain a more HIP collection - leaning toward Hogwood, but owned some of these years ago and was not impressed; however, my tastes & appreciation for this 'period instrument' music has changed, so is this the HIP set desired or another?  Not sure -  :-\


QuoteMozart, WA - Symphonies, 21-41 w/ Josef Krips & Concertgebouw Orchestra - 6 CD set from 1972-74; listening to the last 3 discs tonight.  A wonderful 'compact' collection of some great performances; these are 'modern' instruments but the orchestra is obviously 'small' and the strings and winds delightfully evident - might even persuade you to have this box as an 'alternate' to a HIP performance?  Hey, just saying - check out the comments by Jens HERE (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=340) -  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartSymphKrips/694026596_RXrms-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2009, 05:34:39 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 29, 2009, 05:21:32 PM
Hmmm - no Viotti recommendations or comments so far -  :'(  Can we ask Harry to convince Brilliant to put all of those Dynamic recordings mentioned by Gabriel into a BIG box?   ;) ;D

Well, tonight finishing up on a recent acquisition of Wolfie's last 20 Symphonies - post duplicated below from the 'Listening Thread' - I already own the Mackerras box, so have the early works & alternate performances of the later ones; now, just would like to obtain a more HIP collection - leaning toward Hogwood, but owned some of these years ago and was not impressed; however, my tastes & appreciation for this 'period instrument' music has changed, so is this the HIP set desired or another?  Not sure -  :-\



Well, Dave, for ME, the $150 I invested in the Hogwood set was money very well spent, it has been an endless source of pleasure for me or the last 6 years. In truth though, I AM a tad more PI-centric than you are, since I have a good deal of trouble enjoying things like the Krips that you have pictured. :)

I would make this suggestion to you; get a disk from the Pinnock set and see what you think. It is a bit more mainstream sounding than Hogwood, very well played, and I would be strongly inclined to recommend it to you. But try it and see. If I may try and describe it, it was just too... good for me. ;D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 02 16 Divertimento in F for Winds & Strings 5th mvmt - Finale: Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 29, 2009, 05:49:04 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2009, 05:34:39 PM
Well, Dave, for ME, the $150 I invested in the Hogwood set was money very well spent, it has been an endless source of pleasure for me or the last 6 years. In truth though, I AM a tad more PI-centric than you are, since I have a good deal of trouble enjoying things like the Krips that you have pictured. :)

Good evening Gurn - not sure if you've heard the Krips recordings, but I would venture to say if someone asked me (who had few classical music recordings and just wanted 'some' Mozart symphonies; and knowing that period vs. modern instruments would be an issue of no importance), I would strongly recommend purchase of this 6-CD set - these are like HIP performances on modern instruments - I'm keeping the set -  :D

Now, I'm still going to obtain a true HIP performance, and I've owned both Hogwood & Pinnock in the past, but has been a while - open to all suggestions - believe that I'd be perfectly happy w/ Hog - just would like a much lower price -  ;) ;D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2009, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 29, 2009, 05:49:04 PM


Good evening Gurn - not sure if you've heard the Krips recordings, but I would venture to say if someone asked me (who had few classical music recordings and just wanted 'some' Mozart symphonies; and knowing that period vs. modern instruments would be an issue of no importance), I would strongly recommend purchase of this 6-CD set - these are like HIP performances on modern instruments - I'm keeping the set -  :D

Now, I'm still going to obtain a true HIP performance, and I've owned both Hogwood & Pinnock in the past, but has been a while - open to all suggestions - believe that I'd be perfectly happy w/ Hog - just would like a much lower price -  ;) ;D  Dave

Hey, Dave,
Oh yes, I've heard it (the last 2 disks, actually, not the whole thing). I agree, nicely done. I think if I was going for something of that vintage though, I would stick with my Böhm/Berlin. But hey, that's just me, that's why they release recordings in different styles... :D

Well, those are clearly the main contenders, but there is also a set on Brilliant, the one in the Mozart Big Box, which was also released separately, is purely HIP. I have not heard it, so can't comment, but have heard good things about it. And bad things too, which tells me that it must be pretty good... :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss - Hob 02 17 Cassatio a 9 in C 6th mvmt - Menuetto II
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on October 30, 2009, 03:32:33 AM
I've heard the Krips set as well as the Bohm.  For the sake of good relations I'll merely say that I was not impressed.  ;)  Marriner's wasn't too bad though.  I'm still pulling for Pinnock's set, however - it's magnificent!

QuoteWell, those are clearly the main contenders, but there is also a set on Brilliant, the one in the Mozart Big Box, which was also released separately, is purely HIP. I have not heard it, so can't comment, but have heard good things about it. And bad things too, which tells me that it must be pretty good...

I have that one!  Very laudable performances all around.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on October 30, 2009, 07:08:54 AM
Mozart symphony sets I have are the, Jaap Ter Linden/Mozart Akademie Amsterdam, Bohm/Vienna (25-41), Pablo Casals/Marlboro Festival Orchestra (35-41) and Szell/Cleveland (35, 40 & 41). 

I really like the Szell on the three, but the Bohm and Jaap Ter Linden are all I need for the complete set (Bohm's is just the last half, I don't really need more than one version of the early ones especially since Linden is so good).  The Casals is a nice thing to have purely from a historical perspective as well as the playing is at times very exciting.

I may have a few other individual symphonies but can't bring them to mind at the moment.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on October 30, 2009, 10:24:48 PM
For the 25th try Jérémie Rhorer's new recording!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVP2iGzyYkU
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: monafam on October 31, 2009, 06:09:57 AM
I am going to apologize in advance that I was too lazy to perform any searches of this particular issue (I figured this was the thread to post the question on), so it may have been spoke of at great length.

I recently checked out "The Classical Style" by Charles Rosen and I am having some trouble making my way through the book.  I'm only about 37 pages through, but I still feel lost.

Any suggestions on how to read this?  Is this the great book it's hyped to be (on the book jacket at any rate), or is it more suited for those with a deeper musical background than I apparently have?

Thanks in advance for any help!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2009, 06:22:50 AM
Quote from: monafam on October 31, 2009, 06:09:57 AM
I am going to apologize in advance that I was too lazy to perform any searches of this particular issue (I figured this was the thread to post the question on), so it may have been spoke of at great length.

I recently checked out "The Classical Style" by Charles Rosen and I am having some trouble making my way through the book.  I'm only about 37 pages through, but I still feel lost.

Any suggestions on how to read this?  Is this the great book it's hyped to be (on the book jacket at any rate), or is it more suited for those with a deeper musical background than I apparently have?

Thanks in advance for any help!

:D

It's a bitch, isn't it?

Not being a musician myself, and still wishing to squeeze the juice out of that orange, the three times I read it, I merely looked at the musical examples and read what Rosen said about them, and took his word for it that they did what he said. For me, the meat of the book is the history aspect, and that's what I took from it. There's a lot of good info in there, if you don't allow the musical examples and arguments to overwhelm you. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Mozzafiato / L'Archibudelli - Hob 02 27 Notturno #8 in G for Wind & Strings 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: monafam on October 31, 2009, 06:37:04 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2009, 06:22:50 AM
:D

It's a bitch, isn't it?

Not being a musician myself, and still wishing to squeeze the juice out of that orange, the three times I read it, I merely looked at the musical examples and read what Rosen said about them, and took his word for it that they did what he said. For me, the meat of the book is the history aspect, and that's what I took from it. There's a lot of good info in there, if you don't allow the musical examples and arguments to overwhelm you. :)



Thanks!  I have tended to have the same experience with my other musical reads -- at this point it's been more theoretical than historical, so I'll keep pushing through to the stuff I can handle.  :-) 

It seems like Rosen takes the approach that Hayden, Mozart, and Beethoven are the be-all-end-all of this style and I find it almost insulting for these other "minor composers" that he mentions.  You still enjoy others beyond those three right?  :-)   
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2009, 06:51:03 AM
Quote from: monafam on October 31, 2009, 06:37:04 AM
Thanks!  I have tended to have the same experience with my other musical reads -- at this point it's been more theoretical than historical, so I'll keep pushing through to the stuff I can handle.  :-) 

It seems like Rosen takes the approach that Hayden, Mozart, and Beethoven are the be-all-end-all of this style and I find it almost insulting for these other "minor composers" that he mentions.  You still enjoy others beyond those three right?  :-)   

Well, the option for me would have been to go take a degree so I could wade through some of these texts. Seems unlikely somehow... :)

Well, you know, there really can be little dispute that in terms of quality of music, innovation, originality; whatever term you want to use to define greatness of music, that those 3 were the tops. And stylistically they were very influential on their peers and followers. Now, does that make them the only composers worth listening to or talking about? Certainly not for me. Something I've learned in my years of being on forums like this is that a great many people will only listen to what they feel are the greatest works of the greatest masters. I guess nothing less should sully their ears, I don't know... :-\  Anyway, for me, this is a crock. I listen to what I like, and I recommend that you do the same. If you spend all your time comparing things, it doesn't leave much room to simply enjoy them.  So just do that, and you will hear lots of things that are pretty fine. And some things that aren't. But at least you will have discovered them for yourself, and not relied on someone else to say "that sucks, don't bother...". :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: monafam on October 31, 2009, 08:06:54 AM
Thanks again.  I think I have fallen into the somewhat opposite practice of avoiding the classics/masters (for lack of better terms), because "they will always be around."  It really is about finding what I enjoy -- even if it isn't Mozart, or even if it is <<fill in lesser composer here>>  ;D.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 31, 2009, 08:52:28 AM
Quote from: monafam on October 31, 2009, 06:09:57 AM
I am going to apologize in advance that I was too lazy to perform any searches of this particular issue (I figured this was the thread to post the question on), so it may have been spoke of at great length.

I recently checked out "The Classical Style" by Charles Rosen and I am having some trouble making my way through the book.  I'm only about 37 pages through, but I still feel lost.

Any suggestions on how to read this?  Is this the great book it's hyped to be (on the book jacket at any rate), or is it more suited for those with a deeper musical background than I apparently have?

Thanks in advance for any help!

It is certainly a deep book. I bought it about 20 years ago, and even if at first sight I knew it would be difficult to understand, I told myself that with the passing of time I would understand more. That was what happened, and I'm sure it is difficult to find a most interesting book than this one concerning the classical era. So I can just advice you to read the parts that are interesting to you, and skip the other ones. Try reading other, easier books about music. With patience, you will realize that you will be slowly able to understand more from this book. (Not being a professional musician myself, I guess there will always be parts that I will not understand, but I assure you that I understand a lot more than when I read it for the first time).

Changing the subject, I came across a double CD released in 1990 containing music from French classicism. The main content is Pleyel's church music (a Requiem and a Tantum ergo, available in a more recent release, but in a single CD); but it also contains an Ecce panis by Cherubini; a cantata by Desaugiers (1742-1793), a composer I had never heard about; the overture to Dalayrac's Nina (I'm not aware of any other recording of Dalayrac's operatic production); a symphony by Gossec; the overture to Kreutzer's Paul et Virginie (yes, it's the same Kreutzer of the Beethoven sonata); and the overture to Méhul's Le Jeune Henri.

I listened during the afternoon the three overtures, with different results. The overture to Dalayrac's opera has got good music, but the performance is not precisely inspired; it drains out most of the energy that the music seems to be desperately asking for. The overture by Kreutzer is beautifully scored and has an introduction of remarkable pastoral mood. The overture by Méhul, which I knew in two other versions, was on the other hand a complete surprise: I'd need a better musical equipment than the one I have in Paris to judge the recording quality, but the performance is the most intelligent of the three I know. For a masterpiece as this overture, it's a great joy to have a version that fully expresses the depiction potential of the score.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 31, 2009, 11:50:52 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2009, 06:22:50 AM
:D

It's a bitch, isn't it?

Not being a musician myself, and still wishing to squeeze the juice out of that orange, the three times I read it, I merely looked at the musical examples and read what Rosen said about them, and took his word for it that they did what he said. For me, the meat of the book is the history aspect, and that's what I took from it. There's a lot of good info in there, if you don't allow the musical examples and arguments to overwhelm you. :)

Well, I agree completely w/ the statement from Gurn bolded above - being not as persistent, I've tried to go through this Rosen book twice w/ similar results; I'm not a musician but can 'pick out' tunes on a piano from a music sheet (from my accordion playing days), but I ended up skipping much of the really 'technical' aspects and explanations; don't plan to really return and attempt another read, just too many other musical books available that I've enjoyed over the years. 

I believe that to really understand and obtain the most out of this book would require some musical education/training and an innate musical acumen; I often 'struggle' in more standard biographical books when musical pages are printed and explanations provided - usually just 'skip over' those areas, and would likely need to be sitting on our piano bench w/ a pianist who could play & explain what is being discussed in the book.

However, I'd be quite curious in some of the thoughts and opinions of our 'professional' musicians, composers, etc. on this topic -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: monafam on October 31, 2009, 01:11:45 PM
Thanks again for the responses!  At least I'm not the only one who has had some trouble!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2009, 05:43:12 PM
My current listening, digging out some old Beck CD's, has reminded me of what good composer he was. Compared to his contemporaries, he was ahead of his time in many ways, which is to say, his music sounds as though it was written 30 years or more later than it actually was!

This, stolen from Naxos' website:
BECK, FRANZ IGNAZ  (1734 - 1809)

Franz Ignaz Beck began violin studies with his father, Johann Aloys Beck, an oboist and Rektor of the Choir School at the Palatinate Court in Mannheim. He also learned double bass and organ, among other instruments, and eventually came under the tutelage of Johann Stamitz, the Director of Instrumental Music and leader of the brilliant Mannheim court orchestra. Beck's talents were quickly recognized and the Elector Carl Theodor undertook responsibility for his education.

Although some sources maintain that Beck left Mannheim to study composition with Galuppi in Venice, his pupil Blanchard wrote a more colorful account in which he claimed that Beck, a court favourite, fled the Palatinate after believing that he had killed his opponent (a jealous rival) in a duel only to learn many years later while living in Paris that he was the victim of a cruel hoax; his opponent had only feigned death. Whatever the circumstances of his departure, Beck certainly did live in Venice for several years for it was from there that he eloped to Naples with Anna Oniga, his employer's daughter. After his eventful sojourn in Italy in the 1750s Beck moved to Marseilles and became leader of a theatre orchestra. The date of his arrival in France is uncertain but he must have been well-known by reputation at least as more than twenty of his symphonies were published in rapid succession by Parisian firms beginning in the late 1750s. The title page of the six Op.1 symphonies describe him as 'Chamber Virtuoso to the Elector Palatine and pupil of Johann Stamitz'; the Op.3 title page adds 'and actually first violin of the Concert in Marseilles'. At least seven performances of Beck's symphonies are known to have been given in Marseilles in 1760-61.

Beck moved from Marseilles to Bordeaux where he continued his interest in the theatre, subsequently being appointed conductor of the Grand Theatre. His duties at the theatre were combined with composing and teaching. Among his more prominent pupils were Pierre Gaveaux, Blanchard and Boscha. On 24 October 1774 he was appointed organist at St Seurin, Bordeaux, and his exceptional improvisatory powers won him great admiration from the congregation. Beck's fame, however, was not restricted to Bordeaux. Several sets of his keyboard works were published in Paris and Dresden; he travelled to Paris to attend the first performance of his remarkable Stabat mater at Versailles and his overture and incidental music to Pandore were performed at the Theatre de Monsieur in 1789. Beck appears to have had little difficulty adjusting to the revolutionary climate; he wrote patriotic music during the Revolution, including a Hymn á l'être suprême and in 1803 the new government expressed its approval by naming him correspondent of music composition for the Institute of France.

The pioneering research of Hugo Riemann and Robert Sondheimer in the early Twentieth Century focused new attention on Beck's symphonies, most of which date from early in his career (ca 1757-66). More recently, Barry S Brook has praised Beck's symphonies as being 'among the most original and striking of the pre-Classical period'. Among the most progressive traits in his later works are the regular use of wind instruments in slow movements and an increasing emphasis on thematic development. His taut, dramatic style is also remarkable for its employment of bold harmonic progressions, flexible rhythms and highly independent part writing.

Allan Badley

IMO, his symphonies are a big step forward from J. Stamitz', his teacher. I personally enjoy them to a greater degree than even Vanhal's. Here are a few disks to consider:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XwflNzrAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NTNsZJkIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eTJoVeitL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NWK014X6L._SL160_AA115_.jpg)

I enjoy all of these, there are a few more out there that I haven't sampled yet. And a Stabat Mater that is priced through the roof, but which I've read about (in a book on Haydn) as being very nice indeed. Anyway, a very commendable composer, and worth looking into.  :)

8)



----------------
Listening to:
La Stagione Frankfurt / Michael Schneider - Beck Op 04 #1 Sinfonia in D 4th mvmt - Presto assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 11, 2009, 06:20:40 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2009, 05:43:12 PM
My current listening, digging out some old Beck CD's, has reminded me of what good composer he was. Compared to his contemporaries, he was ahead of his time in many ways, which is to say, his music sounds as though it was written 30 years or more later than it actually was! ......................

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XwflNzrAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eTJoVeitL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NWK014X6L._SL160_AA115_.jpg)  (http://i.blog.empas.com/stamitz/1660509_300x300.jpg)


Gurn - yet another 'lost' composer of excellence!  :D  I have 4 discs of Beck's Symphonies shown above, 3 identical to the ones you own - don't 'yet' have those Op. 1 works, but added a CPO of Op. 3 (Nos. 3-5) - love the CPO cover art.

Need to explore this composer more - just have these orchestral works - other options?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on November 12, 2009, 09:32:42 AM
Gurn - random question, what do you think of Locatelli? I expected a quite ornate late baroque composer when I listened (perhaps along the lines of Vivaldi), but what I got was something rather stripped back, and with extended galant style movements throughout (at least in his violin concertos). Would you class any of his work as early classical, or is it just a quirky transitional style?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 16, 2009, 04:51:21 AM
Beck was a surprise for me as well...and while listening to this Naxo's disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XwflNzrAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


I heard how great Gossec was too. 



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2009, 04:59:51 AM
Quote from: Lethe on November 12, 2009, 09:32:42 AM
Gurn - random question, what do you think of Locatelli? I expected a quite ornate late baroque composer when I listened (perhaps along the lines of Vivaldi), but what I got was something rather stripped back, and with extended galant style movements throughout (at least in his violin concertos). Would you class any of his work as early classical, or is it just a quirky transitional style?

Sara,
Well, I haven't heard all of his stuff, so it's hard to generalize that 'any'... But this post spurred me to relisten to Op 1, obviously early work, and equally obviously totally Baroque. But one or two of the concerti that I've heard from Op 3 leaned more heavily on homophony, and it wouldn't be any sort of stretch to class them as pre-Classical, at least being based on being a precursor to galant music. Of course, I am already on record as believing that a large chunk of Vivaldi falls in that category too... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2009, 05:03:40 AM
Quote from: Leo K on November 16, 2009, 04:51:21 AM
Beck was a surprise for me as well...and while listening to this Naxo's disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XwflNzrAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


I heard how great Gossec was too.

Well, I am less enthusiastic about Gossec than I am about Beck, but in that regard I am totally at odds with their contemporaries, who thought the sun shone particularly brightly on Mssr. Gossec.  Of course, Beck is purely a Mannheimer in style while Gossec is less so, and that may be the attraction for me, since that style is particularly to my taste. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 16, 2009, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2009, 05:03:40 AM
Well, I am less enthusiastic about Gossec than I am about Beck, but in that regard I am totally at odds with their contemporaries, who thought the sun shone particularly brightly on Mssr. Gossec.  Of course, Beck is purely a Mannheimer in style while Gossec is less so, and that may be the attraction for me, since that style is particularly to my taste. :)

8)

;)


As much as I enjoyed hearing Gossec's Symphonies for the first time, I have a feeling I'll really be blown away by his Requiem...I've got to remember to get that one of these days or just download from iTunes if they got it!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on November 17, 2009, 03:30:05 PM
Quote from: Leo K on November 16, 2009, 08:15:05 AM
;)


As much as I enjoyed hearing Gossec's Symphonies for the first time, I have a feeling I'll really be blown away by his Requiem...I've got to remember to get that one of these days or just download from iTunes if they got it!

Just like Gurn, I am not particularly fond of the symphonies by Gossec I have heard, but his Requiem has some remarkable moments.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 20, 2009, 05:07:31 PM
Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805) - Cello Sonatas w/ Luigi Puxeddu et al; 4-CD set on a bargain Brilliant Box (discs listed below w/ the Yves Gerard, i.e. G numbers and dates of composition); these were composed when Luigi was in his 20s, and many while a traveling virtuoso cellist  and composer.

The compositions are listed as Cello Solos w/ Basso Continuo, which was mainly w/ a second cello (likely a son & father performance early, or w/ others later?); in these performances, a second cello is used in the base line w/ a violin or viola substituted in several of the works.

My only comparison is a single disc w/ a favorite, Anner Bylsma as the 'solo' cellist, along w/ Kenneth Slowik on the other cello and Bob van Asperen on a fortepiano; not sure the latter is appropriate in the 'early works', but is not used in most of the performances on this disc (but does sound fine!).

Preference?  Not sure after just one listening to the Brilliant set - Bylsma seems more animated, but Puxeddu has a fine melodious and legato line to his cello playing (and the sound is superb, i.e. 2007-08 recordings); this is a fine set for easy listening and the cellos sound just great together - a recommendation at the Brilliant price!

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BoccheriniPuxeddu/717530994_fBXpJ-S.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515mLLdIpsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Boccherini - Cello Sonatas - Puxeddu

CD 1 -  G3 (Sonata C) c. 1766 (bc w/ cello)
         G2 (Sonata Cm) c. 1768 (bc w/ violin)
         G1 (Sonata F) c. 1768 (bc w/ cello)
         G4 (Sonata A) c. 1773 (bc w/ cello)
         G5 (Sonata G) c. 1763 (bc w/ cello)
         G4b(Sonata A) c. 1773 (bc w/ cello)
         G2b(Sonata C) c. 1768 (bc w/ cello)

CD 2 -   G6 (Sonata C) c. 1768 (bc w/ cello)
           G7 (Sonata C) c. 1767 (bc w/ cello)
           G8 (Sonata Bf) c. 1767 (bc w /cello)
           G9 (Sonata F) c. 1764 (bc w/ cello)
           G10(Sonata Ef) c. 1764 (bc w /cello)   
           G11(Sonata Ef) c. 1766 (bc w/ cello)

CD 3 -   G12(Sonata Bf) c. 1766 (bc w /cello)
           G13(Sonata A) c. 1766 (bc w/ cello)
           G14(Sonata Ef) c. 1767 (bc w/ cello)
           G15(Sonata G) c. 1768 (bc w /cello)
           G16(Sonata Ef) c. 1764 (bc w /cello)
           G17(Sonata C) c. 1772 (bc w/ cello)
           G18(Sonata Cm) c. 1767 (bc w/ viola)

CD 4 -    G565 (Sonata Bf) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
           G565b(Sonata Bf) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
           G566 (Sonata Ef) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
           G?   (Sonata Ef) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
           G?   (Sonata G) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
               G?   (Sonata A) c. ? (bc w/ cello)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2009, 05:12:49 PM
Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Dave. I also have the single disk by Bylsma/Slowik/Asperen, and also one that came in that Capriccio box, although OTTOMH I can't remember the players on it. Also quite nice. You have that box, IIRC, so you have it too. I'll have to scoop this up. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Trio 1790 - Hob XV:19 Trio in Bb  for Piano & Strings 3rd mvmt - Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2009, 05:31:57 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 20, 2009, 05:07:31 PM
Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805) - Cello Sonatas w/ Luigi Puxeddu et al...

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BoccheriniPuxeddu/717530994_fBXpJ-S.jpg) 
Boccherini - Cello Sonatas - Puxeddu

Period or modern instruments, Dave?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 20, 2009, 05:41:39 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2009, 05:12:49 PM
Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Dave. I also have the single disk by Bylsma/Slowik/Asperen, and also one that came in that Capriccio box, although OTTOMH I can't remember the players on it. Also quite nice. You have that box, IIRC, so you have it too. I'll have to scoop this up. :)

Good evening Gurn - yes, I have that BIG Capriccio box, but does not contain these early works - not sure how many other recordings of these compositions are 'out there' other than by Bylsma; but these are the young Luigi just getting started!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 06:40:54 PM
(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/4/5/7/730099464024_300.jpg)

It's good, when trying a new composer, to have a positive experience on the first listen. This is the case here. These pieces are so delightful that it prompted me to drop everything and order more CPE (... CD to be posted in the "Purchases" thread after I receive it).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 06:45:39 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 06:40:54 PM
(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/4/5/7/730099464024_300.jpg)

It's good, when trying a new composer, to have a positive experience on the first listen. This is the case here. These pieces are so delightful that it prompted me to drop everything and order more CPE (... CD to be posted in the "Purchases" thread after I receive it).

Dave,
Cool! Isn't it nice to discover someone new, and not be having to decide "hmm, did I like that or not?". :)  Especially in the keyboard works, and thus for sonatas in general, CPE Bach was the most influential musician of his generation. His book on how to play the keyboard was the Book right up through Beethoven, and probably beyond. Enjoy!  :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Bisengaliev / Lenehan - Joachim: Andantino in a for V & P
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 06:51:05 PM
I read in the notes that he was the hot keyboardist of his time and very influential to the big three in classical.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Coopmv on November 21, 2009, 06:54:04 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 06:51:05 PM
I read in the notes that he was the hot keyboardist of his time and very influential to the big three in classical.

It could be JC Bach, who was the most famous of all Bach sons.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 06:56:28 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 06:51:05 PM
I read in the notes that he was the hot keyboardist of his time and very influential to the big three in classical.

Yes, very much so. He introduced things like irregularity into sonata form, which is what makes music from getting boring. He was also very big on less formal stuff, like fantasias and such. That was a smaller influence in the Classical Era, but much larger for the Romantics. Anyway, during Classical times, when the name "Bach" was mentioned, it was always referring to Emanuel, never to Sebastien as it would be today. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Anthony Spiri - J.C. Bach Andante in Bb for Keyboard
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 06:59:02 PM
I also read his favorite keyboard instrument was the clavichord. I've been scared away from that instrument recently, so I think I'll stick with piano renditions for now.  ;D  Maybe someday I will be brave enough to try this instrument again.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 07:04:39 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 06:59:02 PM
I also read his favorite keyboard instrument was the clavichord. I've been scared away from that instrument recently, so I think I'll stick with piano renditions for now.  ;D  Maybe someday I will be brave enough to try this instrument again.

Understand your trepidation. I gotta tell ya, Dave, IMHO the clavichord (recorded) is an instrument that you have to really like if you're gonna enjoy the music. I have some on clavichord, harpsichord, fortepiano and modern piano. I enjoy the fortepiano the most, even though it is not as appropriate for the music. I think it's because I enjoy the fortepiano the most. So, if you enjoy it on the piano, then that's the right thing. A disk on the clavichord would be an interesting taste of authenticity though... :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Anthony Spiri - J.C. Bach Op 17 #1 Sonata in G for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Menuetto con variazioni
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 07:07:39 PM
Gurn, I'm curious why you like the fortepiano more than the modern version?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 07:07:39 PM
Gurn, I'm curious why you like the fortepiano more than the modern version?

It is more suited to the music that I mostly listen to. When I listen to anything after 1840 or so, I like the modern piano because the music was written for it. The fast decay of the sound, the lighter, faster action, the lesser volume and body of the sound; all of these things were taken into account by the composers of the time. And they wrote accordingly. The JC Bach I'm listening to right now is played on a modern piano (I can't find the Op 17 sonatas on a fortepiano). And the pianist is clearly having to work at it to get the proper sound, which would come naturally from a fortepiano. It's just something that you have to learn to love, but once you do, you can't go back again. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Anthony Spiri - J.C. Bach Op 17 #2 Sonata in c for Keyboard 1st mvmt - [Allegro]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 07:20:50 PM
When did the modern version come into play? I mean, who first wrote expressly for that instrument?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on November 21, 2009, 08:19:31 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 07:20:50 PM
When did the modern version come into play? I mean, who first wrote expressly for that instrument?
Seeing as this is Gurn's corner I'm sure he'll be able to answer better than I.  However, I just... Can't.... Help... Myself...  Must... Interject!!!  ::)

The large Steinway concert pianos of today didn't take the form we're familiar with until the early 20th century.  Older Steinway models that I've heard still have a portion of that earthy and vibrant tone we relate to 'period' pianos.  During an age when orchestras and venues were becoming bigger performers wanted a piano that could fill a concert hall; with its huge proportions and weighted keys the Steinway as we know it came into favour.  In older days, when ensembles were smaller and performances more intimate, pianos did not need to be loud, relying more on their natural sonorities and balanced tone than anything else.  At least, that's how I read it.  Gurn...?

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 22, 2009, 02:04:44 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 06:56:28 PM
... Anyway, during Classical times, when the name "Bach" was mentioned, it was always referring to Emanuel, never to Sebastien as it would be today.

Jean-Sébastien Bach... Very Frenchified and suitable to the end of the XVIII century, Gurn.  :)

Today I was listening to a disc called Der Tangentenflügel. Musik der "Empfindsamen Zeit"  [The Tangent Piano. Music from the "Sentimental Time"], which includes some nice pieces by C.P.E. Bach, Mozart, Müthel, Schubert et al. -wide range, I know- played on that another old keyboard: the tangentenflügel [tangent fortepiano?].

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 22, 2009, 06:09:03 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2009, 05:31:57 PM
Period or modern instruments, Dave?  RE:  Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805) - Cello Sonatas w/ Luigi Puxeddu et al...

Antoine - the liner notes are scant, but the statement made played on 'period instruments' - the sound to me would verify that claim; Luigi Puxeddu seems to be quite a busy performer - for many years, he has been the principal and cello soloist w/ I Solisti Veneti - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Harry on November 22, 2009, 06:16:23 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 22, 2009, 06:09:03 AM
Antoine - the liner notes are scant, but the statement made played on 'period instruments' - the sound to me would verify that claim; Luigi Puxeddu seems to be quite a busy performer - for many years, he has been the principal and cello soloist w/ I Solisti Veneti - Dave  :)

I thought the sound a bit loud and echoing, by the sound bites I heard, but when its on period instruments, I will push the order button now.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 22, 2009, 06:50:07 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 21, 2009, 07:20:50 PM
When did the modern version come into play? I mean, who first wrote expressly for that instrument?

Dave - below is a post (w/ some quotes) that I left in the 'old instruments' thread in early October briefly discussing the origin of the modern piano; the mid-19th century is about the earliest that close to a 'modern' piano was being used; and likely was not commonplace until the latter part of the same century and into the next.

CPE Bach's (1714-1788) keyboard instruments available to him would have been the organ, harpsichord, fortepiano, and clavichord.  Although I have a nice CPE CD collection, there are only 2 discs of keyboard works (one of sonatas on a modern piano & one of concertos w/ the harpsichord) - GROSS negligence on my part which must be corrected!  When I do get around to that task, non-modern piano will be the instruments of my choice. 

Now, I've been eying the MANY recordings done by Miklos Spanyi on the BIS label - Que has been raving about these offerings; unfortunately, there are at least 3 dozen, including both solo & orchestral keyboard works (CPE was prolific in this genre!), and not sure if that is all?  These are packaged separately and not at a bargain price - maybe a box in the future?  If interested, take a look on the MDT Website (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/search/searchresults.asp?sGeneralSearch=cpe+bach+spanyi&sGeneralSearchSection=General&x=0&y=0&startfrom=1&sCatalogueNumber=&submitflag=true&sMSLSort=Filter2Date+DESC%2C+ProductView+DESC%2C+SaleView+DESC&bSortBy=DESC&serial=09112256313474622) - Dave  :)


RE:
Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 06:47:43 AM
Mendelssohn played on a fortepiano!? :o  When was the modern piano invented anyway?  I've heard that the piano unlike some of the other instruments, was really finalized in the 19th century but still saw improvements throughout the 20th century.  Still that's so ridiculous!  Romantic music on a fortepiano! :D

Well, although many innovations were involved w/ the evolution of the 'modern' piano, I usually think of the latter as being constructed w/ a metal frame, particularly a single-forged one - these did not start appearing until the mid-19th century and were adopted and perfected after that time (below is a short quote from a Wiki Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano)); of course, Mendelssohn died in 1847, so he would of been brought up using the keyboard instruments of the early 19th century based on wood frames, and certainly would have composed for those instruments; hopefully, some of our more 'piano-oriented' members might provide more detailed discussion - Dave  :)


QuoteThe single piece cast iron frame was patented in 1825 in Boston by Alpheus Babcock, combining the metal hitch pin plate (1821, claimed by Broadwood on behalf of Samuel Hervé) and resisting bars (Thom and Allen, 1820, but also claimed by Broadwood and Érard). Babcock later worked for the Chickering & Mackays firm who patented the first full iron frame for grand pianos in 1843. Composite forged metal frames were preferred by many European makers until the American system was fully adopted by the early 20th century.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on November 22, 2009, 07:00:05 AM
Thanks, Dave, for your hard work, as usual.  :)

Yeah, I read up on this some last night. Turns out the classical guys always wanted more and more powerful instruments, hence part of the reason for the constant changes.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2009, 08:28:24 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on November 22, 2009, 07:00:05 AM
Thanks, Dave, for your hard work, as usual.  :)

Yeah, I read up on this some last night. Turns out the classical guys always wanted more and more powerful instruments, hence part of the reason for the constant changes.

Dave,
Sorry I couldn't answer your question last night; I went to bed instead, golf is early on Sundays... :)

Looks like my posse took care of you though. My personal feeling, although I haven't seen it incorporated in definition form yet, is that the single major innovation that makes a piano NOT a fortepiano is the iron frame. Of course, there was a continuous series of improvements, but no single one of them can compare with the change from wood to iron. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Cleveland Orchestra / Szell (1963) - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on November 22, 2009, 10:59:13 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 22, 2009, 06:50:07 AM

CPE Bach's (1714-1788) keyboard instruments available to him would have been the organ, harpsichord, fortepiano, and clavichord. 

And the tangent piano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_piano), which is also used by Spanyi in his recordings. :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 23, 2009, 06:45:11 AM
Quote from: Que on November 22, 2009, 10:59:13 PM
And the tangent piano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_piano), which is also used by Spanyi in his recordings. :)

Hi Q - well, I guess that CPE likely played around w/ even other types of keyboards at the time, such as the lute harpsichord (lautenwerk) and possibly the pedal harpsichord?  ;D 

Yep - I need to pick up a few of those Spanyi discs, but there are just TOO many!  :-\  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on November 23, 2009, 09:28:15 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 23, 2009, 06:45:11 AM
Hi Q - well, I guess that CPE likely played around w/ even other types of keyboards at the time, such as the lute harpsichord (lautenwerk) and possibly the pedal harpsichord?  ;D 

Yep - I need to pick up a few of those Spanyi discs, but there are just TOO many!  :-\  Dave

Indeed - the advantage of a transitional era: you can go both ways and some "exotic/experimental" instruments for good measure! ;D

And yes, CPE's keyboard music - accompanied and unaccompanied is a true mer à boire... :o We need a CPE veteran to point us out the goodies!  ::) Where is Gurn when you need him?.... ;)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on November 24, 2009, 03:44:28 AM
About Mendelssohn in general: I've actually read that the instruments he had available would have been considered conservative for the time.  The Gewandausorchester, for example, still used natural brass under his direction according to C. Spering's article on the matter.

Gut strings and various non-Steinway pianos were still in regular use even into the early 20th century.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2009, 04:35:43 AM
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on November 24, 2009, 03:44:28 AM
About Mendelssohn in general: I've actually read that the instruments he had available would have been considered conservative for the time.  The Gewandausorchester, for example, still used natural brass under his direction according to C. Spering's article on the matter.

Gut strings and various non-Steinway pianos were still in regular use even into the early 20th century.

All true. There is a preconception, and not just in music practice, that as of a certain date, something or other took place (an invention, an idea, whatever) and suddenly and without looking back, the entire 'industry' changed overnight. All of this stuff was gradual and incomplete. At this point in history, it is likely going to be difficult to convince people that they need to start thinking in shades of gray.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on November 24, 2009, 04:40:07 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2009, 04:35:43 AM
All true. There is a preconception, and not just in music practice, that as of a certain date, something or other took place (an invention, an idea, whatever) and suddenly and without looking back, the entire 'industry' changed overnight. All of this stuff was gradual and incomplete. At this point in history, it is likely going to be difficult to convince people that they need to start thinking in shades of gray.... :)

8)

What if, as an example, we point out that when houses became 'electrified', a nationwide grid was not exactly in place overnight? ; )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2009, 04:44:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 24, 2009, 04:40:07 AM
What if, as an example, we point out that when houses became 'electrified', a nationwide grid was not exactly in place overnight? ; )

Well, not outside of Boston, anyway... :D

Yes, that's the sort of thing. But really, other than you and I, who really thinks that way all the time about everything?  No, Classical Era, 1770-1800. Bang, that's it. Then we are Fully Romantic until WW I.  It is just so neatly configured for lazy intellects.... hey, just sayin'... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on November 25, 2009, 10:15:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2009, 04:35:43 AM
All true. There is a preconception, and not just in music practice, that as of a certain date, something or other took place (an invention, an idea, whatever) and suddenly and without looking back, the entire 'industry' changed overnight. All of this stuff was gradual and incomplete. At this point in history, it is likely going to be difficult to convince people that they need to start thinking in shades of gray.... :)

Aye.  There's another notion floating around there that instruments changed as a result of the pursuit for a better sound; in reality, much change was for the want of ease of play and practicality.  Steel strings do not require as much tuning as guts and can be manufactured; valved brass is more durable and easier to play than older models; and, as has already been mentioned, a Steinway can fill a room and more!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on November 25, 2009, 11:00:31 PM
Gurn, have you heard about this? [EDIT: I now see that you have (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg374021.html#msg374021).] H. C. Robbins Landon passed away a few days ago.

I wasn't able to find a reference to this event in the forum, therefore I'm posting a link to the obituary from The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/music-obituaries/6646024/HC-Robbins-Landon.html) here.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 10, 2009, 06:39:56 AM
Just left a short post in the listening thread - quoted below w/ a pic of the disc; this is one of my first sojourn's into the kind of 'daily' music, and I'm sure there was a tremendous variety during Mozart's times - appears that these 'wind ensembles' (the Stadler bros belong to one!) were quite popular - probably a lot of wind performers around who needed the money!  :D

But I must say that the recording from MDG w/ Klocker (who wrote, as usual, some excellent liner notes) and the CC is an excellent and pleasant listening - review quoted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=126282) from Fanfare; so, I would be curious about others' experience w/ this type and style of music; I'm sure that MUCH was written/transcribed/transformed/etc. and how much survives and has been recorded, and if the latter, is this indeed must the muzak of the day or worth a listen?  Thanks all - Dave  :)


QuoteSussmayr, Franz Xaver (1766-1803) - Der Spiegel von Arkadien transcribed into a 'wind octet + bass' by Johann Nepomuk Wendt and played by Klocker & the Consortium Classicum - this was part of an eclectic order from BRO which was awaiting me and will likely occupy much of the weekend.

Apparently, these 'wind transcriptions' of various works, esp. those for stage, were quite popular back in those days and were played throughout the day & night - kind of the muzak of the times?  :D

I don't know much about Sussmayr (except his completion of the Mozart Requiem), and this is my first disc of his music (although obviously transformed for wind ensemble) - but I love the Consortium Classicum and the MDG label; plus, the music is quite pleasant - apparently one of his most popular operas!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on December 10, 2009, 06:41:45 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 10, 2009, 06:39:56 AM
Just left a short post in the listening thread - quoted below w/ a pic of the disc; this is one of my first sojourn's into the kind of 'daily' music, and I'm sure there was a tremendous variety during Mozart's times - appears that these 'wind ensembles' (the Stadler bros belong to one!) were quite popular - probably a lot of wind performers around who needed the money!  :D

But I must say that the recording from MDG w/ Klocker (who wrote, as usual, some excellent liner notes) and the CC is an excellent and pleasant listening - review quoted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=126282) from Fanfare; so, I would be curious about others' experience w/ this type and style of music; I'm sure that MUCH was written/transcribed/transformed/etc. and how much survives and has been recorded, and if the latter, is this indeed must the muzak of the day or worth a listen?  Thanks all - Dave  :)

I see this is still available at BRO...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 10, 2009, 06:58:56 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 10, 2009, 06:41:45 AM
I see this is still available at BRO...

Paul - yep, just received my disc from BRO (in a 8-CD order) - their price is $7 - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 06:59:08 AM
Dave,
Looks like an interesting disk. Thanks for introducing the topic of Harmoniemusik. Indeed, it was among the most popular genres of the time.

In the early 1780's (81 or 82), in keeping with his policy of minimal ostentation, Emperor Joseph II dismissed the bulk of his house band and kept the wind players (2 clarinets, 2 oboes, 2 horns, 2 bassoons & double bass) to play around the house for his amusements. Following the human practice of imitating what the boss is doing, soon all the aristocracy had done the same. This group was called a Harmonie, also a wind octet. It wasn't long, of course, before all of the composers were either adapting or else composing specifically for wind octet. Wendt is a good example; AFAIK he never wrote an original piece of music, but in the 20 or so years that he worked at it, he became the premier adapter of music in Vienna. By far the most popular tunes for adaptation were opera arias. Virtually all operas with any popularity quotient were adapted for Harmonie. In a liner note booklet I read the statistic that in the period from 1780 to 1820, there were over 10,000 adapted scores made in Vienna alone!!

If you want to wee a Harmonie in action, watch a DVD of Don Giovanni. Near the end, at the big feast, you will see and hear some stuff by Mozart and Solér with (hilarious) narrative by Don and Leporello. True comedy. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on December 10, 2009, 07:29:10 AM
[Taking the attention off Harmoniemusik] ;)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 06:59:08 AM
a DVD of Don Giovanni.

Do you have a favourite, Gurn? :) Even though I'm not interested in opera in general (at the moment, anyway), I have wanted to watch (yes, watch, as opposed to listen -- so no audio CDs) the later operas by Mozart ever since I watched Amadeus. Specifically, Le nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni and Die Zauberflöte.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 08:00:57 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 10, 2009, 07:29:10 AM
[Taking the attention off Harmoniemusik] ;)

Do you have a favourite, Gurn? :) Even though I'm not interested in opera in general (at the moment, anyway), I have wanted to watch (yes, watch, as opposed to listen -- so no audio CDs) the later operas by Mozart ever since I watched Amadeus. Specifically, Le nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni and Die Zauberflöte.

Well, I'm an opera newbie myself, Navneeth, so I certainly won't suggest something over your head. Of course, I started out with Mozart, figuring if I couldn't like him, then I would never like any opera at all. I got a 6 DVD set from the Glyndbourne opera that has DG, Figaro, Magic Flute, Idomeneo, Cosi and Abduction from the Seraglio in it. It is, like any other box set, not the best possible version of each of these operas, but a very watchable version of each of them, and a great starter set for a newbie (I only paid $70 for the set, brand new!). One thing I like is that all of them are performed in authentic style, IOW, Figaro doesn't take place in Greenwich Village 1957 or anything like that. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on December 10, 2009, 08:12:52 AM
Thanks, Gurn. Instruments and playing apart, I'd prefer period settings myself. :) And speaking of Glyndebourne, I came across a single DVD of Don Giovanni a few days ago at a local store. Not having heard or read anything about that particular performance, I didn't take the plunge. I don't remember the cover that well, but I think it could have been this one (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Kreizberg-Cachemaille-Martinpelto-Glyndebourne/dp/B00014NE58/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260465071&sr=1-1). Is this the one included in the set that you have?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 08:21:49 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 10, 2009, 08:12:52 AM
Thanks, Gurn. Instruments and playing apart, I'd prefer period settings myself. :) And speaking of Glyndebourne, I came across a single DVD of Don Giovanni a few days ago at a local store. Not having heard or read anything about that particular performance, I didn't take the plunge. I don't remember the cover that well, but I think it could have been this one (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Kreizberg-Cachemaille-Martinpelto-Glyndebourne/dp/B00014NE58/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260465071&sr=1-1). Is this the one included in the set that you have?

I don't think so, that one looks newer than mine.

This is  (http://tinyurl.com/yfm4zpd)the one that i have. It is not period instruments, BTW, just costumes and sets and such. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on December 10, 2009, 09:09:28 AM
Figaro in Hell's Kitchen, love it!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on December 10, 2009, 09:21:11 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 08:21:49 AM
It is not period instruments, BTW, just costumes and sets and such. :D

8)

Oh well, we've got to live with we can get.

;)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 10:31:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 10, 2009, 09:09:28 AM
Figaro in Hell's Kitchen, love it!

Mozart does West Side Story... :)

Hell, that's nothing compared to what they really do to him! :o  Lis used to tell me about various productions and just creep me out. :'(

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 10:33:09 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 10, 2009, 09:21:11 AM
Oh well, we've got to live with we can get.

;)

Oddly enough, I have a Gardiner "Magic Flute" on period instruments that is very modern in other aspects. Twyla Tharp-ish dancers and all. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 10, 2009, 02:54:38 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 06:59:08 AM

In the early 1780's (81 or 82), in keeping with his policy of minimal ostentation, Emperor Joseph II dismissed the bulk of his house band and kept the wind players (2 clarinets, 2 oboes, 2 horns, 2 bassoons & double bass) to play around the house for his amusements. Following the human practice of imitating what the boss is doing, soon all the aristocracy had done the same. This group was called a Harmonie, also a wind octet. It wasn't long, of course, before all of the composers were either adapting or else composing specifically for wind octet. Wendt is a good example; AFAIK he never wrote an original piece of music, but in the 20 or so years that he worked at it, he became the premier adapter of music in Vienna. By far the most popular tunes for adaptation were opera arias. Virtually all operas with any popularity quotient were adapted for Harmonie. In a liner note booklet I read the statistic that in the period from 1780 to 1820, there were over 10,000 adapted scores made in Vienna alone!!

Harmonie (Fr., Ger.); Harmoniemusik (Ger.) - just wanted to understand this term more, although Gurn's explanation above pretty much covers the topic.  My previous understanding was similar to the term Tafelmusik, 'table music' - but the latter seemed to have changed its definition(s) over time evolving more toward 'small band' music to accompany meals?

But Harmonie or Harmoniemusik was a term used for a 'wind band' or 'wind section' of an orchestra, typically a group of 6-8 performers on various wind instruments.  Joseph II and subsequent wealthy courts maintained a similar collection of musicians to perform music during festive occasions or dinner, as mentioned by Gurn.

The repertory of music, such as sernades for 'sextet' or 'octet' by Mozart, Hadyn, Krommer, et al is included in this category of composition, i.e. music written originally for this group of performers; but in addition would also include transcriptions/transformations/etc. of music already composed, particularly stage works such as operas.

This tradition apparently emerged during the time of Mozart & Haydn and continued into the early part of the next century; apparently two of likely many performers/transcribers of this music were the imperial Harmonie oboists Johann Wendt & Joseph Triebensee - Wenzel Sedlak is another one mentioned during Beethoven's times; so an important industry, esp. in Vienna - kind of like Tin Pan Alley -  ;) :D

P.S. Sources - web searches & the Oxford Companion of Music
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 05:05:38 PM
Dave,
Yes, those are the Big Three; Wendt, Sedlak and Triebensee. By and large I've noticed that all the better adaptations that I have were made by one of them.

Back in 1782, when Mozart's father asked him for a symphony for a celebration in Salzburg (which came to be known as the Haffner Symphony #35), Wolfgang at first put him off saying that he had to hurry up and compose a Harmonie for The Abduction from the Seraglio before someone else did and made all the money from it. IIRC, it hadn't even been performed yet, so it shows how stiff the competition was even then, sort of like getting a digital video camera into a movie today and then selling bootleg DVD's. :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
New York Vocal Arts Ensemble - Hob 25c 9 Song for Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Bass 'Abendlied Zu Gott'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on December 11, 2009, 02:48:51 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 10:33:09 AM
Oddly enough, I have a Gardiner "Magic Flute" on period instruments that is very modern in other aspects. Twyla Tharp-ish dancers and all. :D
I've always felt it odd when HIP directors stage an opera using a modern premise.  To be frank, I don't want to see Don Giovanni wearing a leather jacket or Idomeneo in a business suit!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on January 05, 2010, 04:52:26 AM
Who else was out there writing works for the piano in the mould of Beethoven and Schubert? (Around the same time, of course.) For the past many days, I have felt that I could survive just on the klavierwerke of these two composers. In fact, these days I don't feel like listening to anything else. And before you ask: Bach is excluded from "anything else." :)

FYI: I have John Field's nocturnes.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The new erato on January 05, 2010, 05:18:41 AM
Dussek maybe? I seem to remember that Staier had a couple of good discs?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2010, 05:22:01 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 05, 2010, 04:52:26 AM
Who else was out there writing works for the piano in the mould of Beethoven and Schubert? (Around the same time, of course.) For the past many days, I have felt that I could survive just on the klavierwerke of these two composers. In fact, these days I don't feel like listening to anything else. And before you ask: Bach is excluded from "anything else." :)

FYI: I have John Field's nocturnes.

Navneeth,
I'm not sure that anyone can be accused of composing piano sonatas in the mold of Beethoven and Schubert, but a couple of names I will toss to you, people who were contemporaries with their own voices, are Jan L. Dussek and John Cramer. You would also do a lot worse than to pick up the sonatas of Hummel and Weber. Of course, all of this assumes that you have already dipped in to the works of the Sonata Master himself, Muzio Clementi.... :)

If you are looking for specific recommendations, there are others here who are better at it than I am. But I can throw one name at you, Andreas Staier.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on January 05, 2010, 05:36:46 AM
Two votes for Dussek. Thanks, erato and Gurn.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2010, 05:22:01 AM
Navneeth,
I'm not sure that anyone can be accused of composing piano sonatas in the mold of Beethoven and Schubert, but a couple of names I will toss to you, people who were contemporaries with their own voices, are Jan L. Dussek and John Cramer. You would also do a lot worse than to pick up the sonatas of Hummel and Weber. Of course, all of this assumes that you have already dipped in to the works of the Sonata Master himself, Muzio Clementi.... :)
Although the names are not new, I'm yet to take a dip in their works. I was thinking Clementi's name might show up even though he was senior to Beethoven by nearly two decades. :)

QuoteIf you are looking for specific recommendations, there are others here who are better at it than I am. But I can throw one name at you, Andreas Staier.
Not looking for CD recs. right now; but I'll remember Staier. Thanks. :) I'll youtube these names -- there are a couple of good channels specialising in Baroque and Classical that I know of -- and those should do for now for instant gratification and general toe-dipping.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on January 05, 2010, 07:33:50 PM
For what it's worth, I just received a new CD of Hummel sonatas (Op. 13 No 6, E flat; Op. 20, F minor) played on a Brodmann fortepiano from the early 19th century... Chandos CD with Susan Alexander-Max. Very satisfying. Hummel wasn't quite on Beethoven's level, and his structures tend to be fairly rhapsodic, but the music is enjoyable and the fortepiano has a wonderful sound to it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2010, 04:24:57 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 05, 2010, 07:33:50 PM
For what it's worth, I just received a new CD of Hummel sonatas (Op. 13 No 6, E flat; Op. 20, F minor) played on a Brodmann fortepiano from the early 19th century... Chandos CD with Susan Alexander-Max. Very satisfying. Hummel wasn't quite on Beethoven's level, and his structures tend to be fairly rhapsodic, but the music is enjoyable and the fortepiano has a wonderful sound to it.

Looks like a nice disk, I'll look it up. I have a couple of disks of her playing Clementi sonatas on Naxos, she is a fine pianista. Also have he playing some Hummel ensemble, the Piano Quintet and a trio and a viola sonata, on Gaudeamus. That is a really nice disk anyway, and was my first Hummel. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 06, 2010, 04:50:12 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 05, 2010, 04:52:26 AM
In fact, these days I don't feel like listening to anything else. And before you ask: Bach is excluded from "anything else." :)

  :P  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 12, 2010, 09:28:59 AM
Wölfl or Woelfl, Joseph (1773-1812) - Austrian keyboardist & composer, born in Salzburg and taught early by Leopold Mozart & Michael Haydn - last night listening to the Keyboard Sonatas & Keyboard-Harp Duos on two separate discs; played on the fortepiano (on both recordings) by Laure Colladant w/ Catherine Michel on the harp on the second disc.  Colladant's husband is Johannes Carda, a restorer of Viennese harpsichords & fortepianos from that era, the keyboard instrument she plays is from his collection of restored instruments.

This short-lived composer was quite popular in his time and traveled extensively; first to Vienna in which participated in some 'friendly' piano duels w/ Beethoven (the matches were fairly even relative to keyboard virtuosity - they would have been playing fortepianos); he then was in Warsaw, Paris, and finally in England, where he died. 

There is no thread that I could locate on Joseph Wölfl, so I thought a post here might evoke some interest, comments, and possible recommendations.  The only other CD that I own of this composer is of Piano Sonatas, Op. 25 & 33 w/ Jon Nakamatsu on a modern piano (Hamburg Steinway Model D), which has received excellent reviews (e.g. ClassicsToday HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7023) & on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/W%C3%B6lfl-Piano-Sonatas-Opp-25/dp/B0000A9BWI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263319716&sr=1-2)); a nice one disc introduction to this 'classical era' composer.

Other discs that peaked my interest are also shown below - would appreciate any thoughts on those possibilities -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/WoelflVol2/760905472_RvnVG-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/WoelflVol3/760904799_G7Cgd-O.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CWNNSF23L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619OW8YQRTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BISQ5a9nL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SVMCPTZNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2010, 05:27:12 PM
Dave,
Earlier in this very thread, Gabriel and I had a brief discussion about Wölfl. I haven't yet gone back to refresh my memory of it, but I mentioned having only the Nakamatsu disk at that point, and he got me interested in Colladant. I have the Volume 2 that you have featured, but not the one with the harp yet. I am quite drawn to the quartets disk though, I'll have to check that one out. Thanks for pointing it out. For those of you who haven't heard Wölfl at all, his strength was the keyboard, and the Op 28 set by Colladant is a great intro to him. Very commendable. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Marcia Hadjimarkos - Hob 16:42 Sonata in D for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro con expressione
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 12, 2010, 06:01:45 PM
I see that Colladant's volume 2 neatly complements the Nakamatsu disc - no overlap. I really like the Nakamatsy. I didn't know there was more. Much more, from what I read here (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Woelfl).

For those who can read French, this Wiki is much more complete than in its english version.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 13, 2010, 05:46:19 AM
Quote from: Barak on January 12, 2010, 06:01:45 PM
I see that Colladant's volume 2 neatly complements the Nakamatsu disc - no overlap. I really like the Nakamatsy. I didn't know there was more. Much more, from what I read here (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Woelfl).

For those who can read French, this Wiki is much more complete than in its english version.

Barak - thanks for that French Wiki link; the catalog of works is excellent (I just had reviewed the English version which was not as complete, as stated).  BTW - the page can be 'translated' which I've done before w/ some hiliarious results - but not too bad!

Gurn - I did of bunch of various searches but just could not find much on Wölfl - if you two like the combination of keyboard and harp, that disc is wonderful; the fortepiano being used sounds more like a blend of an earlier one & haprsichord and complements the harp just beautifully - nothing in the liner notes about the harp unfortunately, certainly one w/ pedals but not sure if a restored, reproduction, or a more modern instrument?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2010, 06:01:55 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 13, 2010, 05:46:19 AM
Barak - thanks for that French Wiki link; the catalog of works is excellent (I just had reviewed the English version which was not as complete, as stated).  BTW - the page can be 'translated' which I've done before w/ some hiliarious results - but not too bad!

Gurn - I did of bunch of various searches but just could not find much on Wölfl - if you two like the combination of keyboard and harp, that disc is wonderful; the fortepiano being used sounds more like a blend of an earlier one & haprsichord and complements the harp just beautifully - nothing in the liner notes about the harp unfortunately, certainly one w/ pedals but not sure if a restored, reproduction, or a more modern instrument?  Dave  :)

Well, I just went back and found that mention here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg281136.html#msg281136

and truly, it was very brief; just long enough for me to find out about Colladant, and a few other disks to look into also (piano trios, for example).  I am guessing that I need that harp disk, Dave, it sounds interesting and represents an entire genre which I have totally ignored to date. Other major contributors include Spohr and Dussek, and no doubt many others. Beethoven even wrote some harp music; some of his early variation sets which are always played on keyboard now (like WoO 64 (? 65?) for example were originally for "clavier or harp"... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on January 13, 2010, 06:25:11 AM
Scrolling down from the quote about the Wolfl recordings is a very good discussion of some things to appreciate in the Classical style.

Very good reading.

I am another of those people who enjoy the Classical style more than any other, with the exception of new music - but I listen to new music for completely different reasons, so I think I am solid ground claiming that the Classical period is the one I find myself listening to more than others.

I am fascinated by the formal challenges the composers set for themselves, and I love the restraint of the expression.  Romantic music often sounds over-the-top to me, and for me, less is definitely more.

I am going to save that link because the discussion is really that good.

As far as where to start a Classical period listening journey, I think the string quartet captures both the wit and subtle complexity which I think best exemplify the soul of the Classical style.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 13, 2010, 03:06:17 PM
The french Wiki article quotes reviews of a 'clash or the titans' piano contest that took place in 1799 between Beethoven and Wölfl. It seems to have been quite an event. According to reports, Beethoven excelled in improvisations and his playing was termed ' brilliant' . Woelfl had some amaziing technical feats to his credit (he seems to have possessed huge hands that enabled him to do unheard of pianistic effects, as well as being very charming ('insinuating') in expressive passages. Both men admired each other.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 13, 2010, 03:25:58 PM
Quote from: Barak on January 13, 2010, 03:06:17 PM
The french Wiki article quotes reviews of a 'clash or the titans' piano contest that took place in 1799 between Beethoven and Wölfl. It seems to have been quite an event. According to reports, Beethoven excelled in improvisations and his playing was termed ' brilliant' . Woelfl had some amaziing technical feats to his credit (he seems to have possessed huge hands that enabled him to do unheard of pianistic effects, as well as being very charming ('insinuating') in expressive passages. Both men admired each other.

Barak - yes, I was reading about that event (discussed in some of the liner notes, too!) - Wölfl was over 6 ft tall (must have looked like a 'Muff & Jeff' couple together -  ;D); also, stated that he had a 13th hand span, which I assume is about an 'octave and a half or so' - also a 'bon vivant' - must have been quite attractive to the ladies?

Gurn - I looked back at your link - I was even involved!  But, only about 3 or so posts - hope that we get some more responses on these other works; the SQ disc looks attractive (I have that group w/ Albrectsberger SQs - and was impressed) - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2010, 05:18:09 PM
Quote from: Franco on January 13, 2010, 06:25:11 AM
Scrolling down from the quote about the Wolfl recordings is a very good discussion of some things to appreciate in the Classical style.

Very good reading.

I am another of those people who enjoy the Classical style more than any other, with the exception of new music - but I listen to new music for completely different reasons, so I think I am solid ground claiming that the Classical period is the one I find myself listening to more than others.

I am fascinated by the formal challenges the composers set for themselves, and I love the restraint of the expression.  Romantic music often sounds over-the-top to me, and for me, less is definitely more.

I am going to save that link because the discussion is really that good.

As far as where to start a Classical period listening journey, I think the string quartet captures both the wit and subtle complexity which I think best exemplify the soul of the Classical style.

Franco,
Yes, those are the things that people love (or hate) about Classical music. Form, form form. Melody, rhythm, interesting harmony; but all in a package that sounds simple. If you were listening to what I am now, it is so simple that it can't possibly be entertaining, and yet the simplicity IS the entertainment. Paradoxical, but there it is. :)

Well, I agree that string quartets are the top of the mountain, so to speak, but these days I nearly invariably discover new composers through keyboard sonatas, if, in fact, they wrote any. Fortunately, most did. Always happy to move on to the quartet though. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Marcia Hadjimarkos - Hob 16 48 Sonata in C for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Andante con expressione
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2010, 05:21:33 PM
Quote from: Barak on January 13, 2010, 03:06:17 PM
The french Wiki article quotes reviews of a 'clash or the titans' piano contest that took place in 1799 between Beethoven and Wölfl. It seems to have been quite an event. According to reports, Beethoven excelled in improvisations and his playing was termed ' brilliant' . Woelfl had some amaziing technical feats to his credit (he seems to have possessed huge hands that enabled him to do unheard of pianistic effects, as well as being very charming ('insinuating') in expressive passages. Both men admired each other.

In fact, they could actually have been considered friends for the duration of Wölfl's stay in Vienna. Really an extraordinary occurrence in Beethoven's life at the time. Not that he didn't have friends, but not many of them were musicians, and even fewer were rivals of the keyboard. Wölfl must have been a heck of a fellow... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Derek Adlam - Clavichord - Hob 17 01 Capriccio in G for Keyboard
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2010, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 13, 2010, 03:25:58 PM
Barak - yes, I was reading about that event (discussed in some of the liner notes, too!) - Wölfl was over 6 ft tall (must have looked like a 'Muff & Jeff' couple together -  ;D); also, stated that he had a 13th hand span, which I assume is about an 'octave and a half or so' - also a 'bon vivant' - must have been quite attractive to the ladies?

Gurn - I looked back at your link - I was even involved!  But, only about 3 or so posts - hope that we get some more responses on these other works; the SQ disc looks attractive (I have that group w/ Albrectsberger SQs - and was impressed) - Dave  :)

Dave,
Well, I thought that you had been, but couldn't remember precisely. Of course, your interests are far more diverse than mine, hard to keep up with them all. :D

You know, I edge ever closer to giving something by the Authentic Quartet a try. The first I ever heard of them was from a Mozart enthusiast on another forum whose taste I have found to be quite good over time, and he gave them such a scathing review that I have been timid about trying them out ever since. I can't remember which disk it was now, I should go back and look it up. Anyway, since then at least you and Gabriel have said nice tings about them, so I guess it's time to rethink that. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Derek Adlam - Clavichord - Hob 17 01 Capriccio in G for Keyboard
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 08:17:55 AM
Oh, I found that quote this AM on the Mozart Forum, and in fact it is the Wölfl quartets that he is speaking of:

First this:
QuoteKeep away from the "Authentic Quartet". Their instruments may be authentic, but they seem to think that this is enough and that playing off pitch must be part of the authenticity.

and then this followup:
QuoteI only know their recording of the Wölfl quartets which is hideous. It's always the same phenomenon: technically under-qualified string players get themselves original instruments and start recording pieces of minor composers that deserve to be rediscovered (Lickl, Zmeskall et al). But these recordings are so bad that these fine but neglected composers never have a chance. Franz Xaver Richter was luckier. He received this fabulous recording.

I don't think you can fault me for being tentative. It would be nice if someone could put the lie to this. Although I have been familiar with this guy for a few years and he has always been reasonable.  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 08:21:32 AM
Wow, can it be 1000 posts here already? I want to thank every contributor for his/her support and info sharing. And the readers for reading, as far as that goes! Hope Year 2 on The Corner is as successful as Year 1 has been.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on January 14, 2010, 10:29:29 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 08:21:32 AM
Wow, can it be 1000 posts here already? I want to thank every contributor for his/her support and info sharing.

You and all the other gentlemen are most welcome!

(And that's the thousandth post here :) )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on January 14, 2010, 10:32:16 AM
Huzzah!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 08:17:55 AM
Oh, I found that quote this AM on the Mozart Lucchesi Forum

Emended . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 10:42:49 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 14, 2010, 10:32:16 AM
Huzzah!
 
Emended . . . .

Dare we say "EFT"?  :)

No, the bloodletting involved in removing Newman from that forum was far less graceful and amusing as what we managed to pull off, I'm afraid. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on January 14, 2010, 10:54:51 AM
I think we showed extraordinary aplomb in that episode . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 11:03:22 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 14, 2010, 10:54:51 AM
I think we showed extraordinary aplomb in that episode . . . .

I still swell with pride...  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2010, 04:04:33 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 08:17:55 AM
Oh, I found that quote this AM on the Mozart Forum, and in fact it is the Wölfl quartets that he is speaking of:

First this:  Keep away from the "Authentic Quartet". Their instruments may be authentic, but they seem to think that this is enough and that playing off pitch must be part of the authenticity.

and then this followup:  I only know their recording of the Wölfl quartets which is hideous......

I don't think you can fault me for being tentative. It would be nice if someone could put the lie to this. Although I have been familiar with this guy for a few years and he has always been reasonable.  :-\

Hello Gurn - well, the term 'hideous' brings to mind another word for me hyperbole!  ;D

Now, I do not own the recording in question, so cannot make any specific comments, sorry -  :-\

But, this afternoon I did listen to my two discs w/ the Authentic Quartet shown below; the Vanhal disc is enjoyable and I particularly like Spanyi on the fortepiano - I believe that you would like this recording - another opinion HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Jan10/Vanhal_Quintets_HCD32588.htm); the Albrechtsberger SQs are also well done - cannot find an alternate opinion?  :-\

This Quartet has a Website HERE (http://www.authenticquartet.hu/index.php?disp=eng) and certainly is not a bunch of amateurs picking up some string instruments from the local pawn shop!  They may not be the best SQ on the planet (and a few comments are made on some reviews of their recordings concerning their abilities)  - but their repertoire is such that there is little comparison?  I'll be curious about opinions of the Wölfl CD from others who have heard the disc before I decide on a purchase?   Dave  :)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Vanhal_HCD32588.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/AlbrectsSQs/618085797_kYSsi-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2010, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 14, 2010, 04:04:33 PM
Hello Gurn - well, the term 'hideous' brings to mind another word for me hyperbole!  ;D

Now, I do not own the recording in question, so cannot make any specific comments, sorry -  :-\

But, this afternoon I did listen to my two discs w/ the Authentic Quartet shown below; the Vanhal disc is enjoyable and I particularly like Spanyi on the fortepiano - I believe that you would like this recording - another opinion HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Jan10/Vanhal_Quintets_HCD32588.htm); the Albrechtsberger SQs are also well done - cannot find an alternate opinion?  :-\

This Quartet has a Website HERE (http://www.authenticquartet.hu/index.php?disp=eng) and certainly is not a bunch of amateurs picking up some string instruments from the local pawn shop!  They may not be the best SQ on the planet (and a few comments are made on some reviews of their recordings concerning their abilities)  - but their repertoire is such that there is little comparison?  I'll be curious about opinions of the Wölfl CD from others who have heard the disc before I decide on a purchase?   Dave  :)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Vanhal_HCD32588.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/AlbrectsSQs/618085797_kYSsi-S.jpg)

:D  Thanks for the dissenting opinion, Dave. No, you're right, hyperbole. But even discounting that the whole thing was a bit OTT. And the other disk he mentioned there turns out to be the Richter quartets on Christoforo, so you can see he isn't just anti-PI in general. Yikes! :o

Well, I'll start with the Vanhal in any case, and then have a better idea about the Krommer, Albrechtsberger and Wölfl. Certainly not music that I want to miss out on. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien Miah Persson - Hob 24b:20 Concert aria for Soprano "Solo e pensoso"
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 16, 2010, 01:04:00 PM
Some 'new' acquisitions for me (quote from the listening thread just posted below) - have not reviewed this thread to see if these two composers have been discussed, but have just one other disc of Eichner - really would be interested in comments of other clarinet discs by Lefevre and recommendations of Eichner (he apparently wrote 31 Symphonies which are extant!) - thanks all -  :D


QuoteLefevre, Jean (1763-1829) - Clarinet Quartets w/ Eduard Brunner on the clarinet + string trio; this is a wonderful recording w/ compositions by a Swiss-French virtuoso/professor/writer/teacher who spanned French aristocracy & Napoleon w/o losing his head!  Excellent reprinted review from Jerry Dubins HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?ordertag=Perfrecom14554-211167&album_id=216229) (Fanfare, Jan-Feb '10) - appears that 'modern' instruments were used, which would have disturbed Lefevre after reading the liner notes and Dubins comments!

Eichner, Ernst (1740-1777) - Symphonies w/ Werner Ehrhardt & l'arte del mondo - these are from that transitional classical period performed by a 'period instrument' group - excellent review in the current Jan-Feb issue of the Am Record Guide - have one disc of flute works by this composer -  :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/LefevreClarinet/764533177_MrsYv-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/EichnerSymphonies/764533169_yYWjG-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on January 18, 2010, 03:49:53 PM
So what's the best entrance to Wölfl's music?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2010, 04:31:17 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 18, 2010, 03:49:53 PM
So what's the best entrance to Wölfl's music?

Gotta be the piano sonatas. This was his main thing, all else is just going along and expanding his horizons. That Op 28 disk with Laure Colladant is a nice start, IMO. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on January 20, 2010, 06:04:01 AM
I have to take back what I had said about musical jokes in the past.  I thought that they were only "funny" in some dry academic sense, i.e. unfunny.  But I was listening to one of the Haydn Op 50 string quartets on the radio last night (live recording by the Doric String Quartet) and they had a fake ending.  It ended and everyone started applauding... and then they started again.  Everyone in the audience laughed, and I did too! :D

Everyone, what are your favorite musical jokes from the classical era?  And are there other notorious pranksters besides Haydn?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on January 20, 2010, 06:10:41 AM
There's the Three Nuns Walk Into A Bar quartet.  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on January 20, 2010, 07:02:46 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2010, 06:04:01 AM
I have to take back what I had said about musical jokes in the past.  I thought that they were only "funny" in some dry academic sense, i.e. unfunny.
<snip>
Everyone, what are your favorite musical jokes from the classical era?

Welcome to the club, David. I discovered some Haydn jokes myself just a couple of months ago. But I won't say anything about them right now -- it will spoil the fun! :D (You can search my posts if you are curious. ;))
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 20, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 18, 2010, 03:49:53 PM
So what's the best entrance to Wölfl's music?

Hello David - glad to see you back!  Hope all is well w/ you -  :)

Concerning the question above, I agree w/ Gurn - try one of Piano Sonatas disc shown in my previous thread; both are quite enjoyable - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 20, 2010, 04:36:27 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2010, 06:04:01 AM
And are there other notorious pranksters besides Haydn?

Well, Schornsheim and Staier:


http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=10231914-fae


BTW, welcome back, David!  :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on January 20, 2010, 04:46:02 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 20, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
Hello David - glad to see you back!  Hope all is well w/ you -  :)

Concerning the question above, I agree w/ Gurn - try one of Piano Sonatas disc shown in my previous thread; both are quite enjoyable - Dave  :D

Well both of you are saying the same thing so guess that'll be what I go for. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 23, 2010, 07:28:48 AM
Benda, Franz (1709-1786), brother of Georg Benda - searching this thread, there has been a lot of discussion on Georg, but little on his brother, Franz, who was a violinist and composer - he spent most of his adult life in the court of Frederick the Great,  an excellent flautist, often playing w/ Benda and other members of this orchestra, such as CPE Bach.

I'm currently listening to the Flute Concertos below w/ Laurence Dean on a Baroque instrument + a period instrument band - the playing and recording are superb; but this is only my second disc of F. Benda's many compositions, most written for violin.  If interested, check out the Wiki article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Benda) - he wrote 17 Symphonies, 28 Violin & Flute Concertos, 182 Sonatas w/ b.c. for a variety of instruments (mostly violin), 10 Trio Sonatas, 31 Violin Duets, and 110 Violin Capriccios for solo instrument!

The only other disc that I own of his works are Violin Sonatas (w/ harpsichord) - so, with all of the compositions listed above, there must be some great discs to contemplate!  ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BendaFluteConcs/767495528_YYLKj-O.jpg)  (http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000L42J72.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on January 28, 2010, 07:03:17 AM
Has there ever been a really bad Haydn recording? I think his music is impervious! I picked up a Naxos piano concerto disc recently and, as usual, Haydn delights.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 07:21:21 AM
Quote from: Beethovenian on January 28, 2010, 07:03:17 AM
Has there ever been a really bad Haydn recording? I think his music is impervious! I picked up a Naxos piano concerto disc recently and, as usual, Haydn delights.

I've never personally got my hands on one, but I've heard that there are a few symphony recordings that might not be quite up to snuff. Haydn has benefited from some sympathetic interpreters even back in the days of full-blown "bigger is better" post-Romantic orchestras. The "101 Strings" effect is never correct with Haydn, but he didn't get that nearly as often as Mozart did (and still does, on occasion... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on January 28, 2010, 07:23:14 AM
I have some Karajan Haydn. Is this of what you speaketh?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 07:36:21 AM
Quote from: Beethovenian on January 28, 2010, 07:23:14 AM
I have some Karajan Haydn. Is this of what you speaketh?

:D

Well, a lot of people love that... stuff, so I can't be more specific, but certainly you are going down the right... um, wrong road there. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on January 28, 2010, 07:42:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 07:36:21 AM
:D

Well, a lot of people love that... stuff, so I can't be more specific, but certainly you are going down the right... um, wrong road there. ;)

8)

Well, it came in a big symphony box set with the other stuff he's actually good at.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 07:44:59 AM
Quote from: Beethovenian on January 28, 2010, 07:42:53 AM
Well, it came in a big symphony box set with the other stuff he's actually good at.  ;D

Yes, he certainly was good at what he was good at. And vice-versa... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2010, 09:03:13 AM
Bernstein's still a bad ass in the Paris symphonies, even if he does use a huge orchestra. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 10:02:16 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 28, 2010, 09:03:13 AM
Bernstein's still a bad ass in the Paris symphonies, even if he does use a huge orchestra. :)

Well, I've said this before and not shy to say it again; one of my favorite Haydn symphony recordings is WP/Bernstein doing 88 & 92 on DGG. This is a very fine disk, even though it hurts me to say... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on January 28, 2010, 10:03:09 AM
I can't look . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 10:04:57 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 28, 2010, 10:03:09 AM
I can't look . . . .

I must look . . . .

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on January 28, 2010, 10:11:43 AM
You rang?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2010, 02:48:38 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 10:02:16 AM
Well, I've said this before and not shy to say it again; one of my favorite Haydn symphony recordings is WP/Bernstein doing 88 & 92 on DGG. This is a very fine disk, even though it hurts me to say... :D

Gurn - off subject, but how did you post count get to 24K+?  ???    ;) Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on January 28, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
Quote from: Beethovenian on January 28, 2010, 07:42:53 AM
Well, it came in a big symphony box set with the other stuff he's actually good at.  ;D

Actually Karajan's Haydn can be quite interesting.  Not that I'd ever want to depend on Karajan as my only recording of a piece by Haydn.  He also recorded some Haydn with the VPO for Decca in the 60's, which I am curious to hear.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2010, 02:57:57 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 28, 2010, 02:48:38 PM
Gurn - off subject, but how did you post count get to 24K+?  ???    ;) Dave

You know nobody ever asks Karl that! :D  They just take it for granted, he is king of the post count. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 04:27:15 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 28, 2010, 02:48:38 PM
Gurn - off subject, but how did you post count get to 24K+?  ???    ;) Dave

I've been very busy, Dave. You must not have been paying attention... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Köln / Jacobs - K 492 Opera buffa in 4 acts "Le nozze di Figaro" - ACT I 1 -  Duettino: Cinque... dieci... venti...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2010, 05:32:16 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 04:27:15 PM
I've been very busy, Dave. You must not have been paying attention... :)

Gurn - OK - must have been a Rip van Winkle experience, i.e. I arose one day and my dear friend had 6x the number of posts - boy, time flies when one is asleep!   ;D ;)  Dave

(http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Health/Images/Rip-Van-Winkle.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 05:36:17 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 28, 2010, 05:32:16 PM
Gurn - OK - must have been a Rip van Winkle experience, i.e. I arose one day and my dear friend had 6x the number of posts - boy, time flies when one is asleep!   ;D ;)  Dave

(http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Health/Images/Rip-Van-Winkle.jpg)

:D

8)

----------------
Listening to: Concerto Köln / Jacobs - K 492 Opera buffa in 4 acts "Le nozze di Figaro" - ACT II  14 -  Esci, ormai, garzon malnato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 28, 2010, 06:31:13 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 28, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
Actually Karajan's Haydn can be quite interesting.  Not that I'd ever want to depend on Karajan as my only recording of a piece by Haydn.  He also recorded some Haydn with the VPO for Decca in the 60's, which I am curious to hear.

Karajan recorded symphonies 103 and 104 and IMHO they trump the later recording big time. He more or less mummified his Haydn interpretations into humourless, starchy and overbig readings (the 1980s DG recordings of the Paris an dLondon symphonies). The Vienna 103 and 104 exhibit much more velour and relish. Originally coupled with Mozart symphonies 40 and 41 (same comment, though I much prefer his late Mozart to his late Haydn). Recommended if you can find it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on January 28, 2010, 08:22:52 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2010, 10:02:16 AM
Well, I've said this before and not shy to say it again; one of my favorite Haydn symphony recordings is WP/Bernstein doing 88 & 92 on DGG. This is a very fine disk, even though it hurts me to say... :D

8)

It's now part of a box set DG issued of all their Bernstein Haydn recordings.  4 CDs, with #94 on the same disc as #88 and #92;  the Sinfonia Concertante, the Mass "in tempore belli" and The Creation.  The Creation is so so, especially compared to my other versions, but the rest sounds top notch to me.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 02, 2010, 12:26:12 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 12, 2009, 10:24:57 AM
Of course, at the Baroque-Classical transition were the Bach sons & their father; at the other end, one good example would be Ferdinand Ries (1784-1838) - Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Ries) - Beethoven was a major influence; both composers were born in Bonn; Ries' father, Franz Anton (1755-1846) was a violin virtuoso in the Bonn court orchestra, and taught the young Beethoven to play violin, and also gave lessons in violin & piano to his son.  The younger Ries ended up in Vienna, and over 4 years worked for Beethoven as a copyist and secretary, receiving piano lessons as compensation.  He composed much music, and his early works were strongly influenced by Beethoven; "He ........ left eight symphonies, a violin concerto and nine piano concertos, and numerous other works in many genres, including 26 string quartets", plus plenty of chamber and other piano works.

I've really enjoyed Ries' music over the years, and have obtained quite a bit, mostly on the CPO label; for those who may want to explore this composer and depending on your interests, below is 'what' I currently own - and I can't say that I dislike any of this music - the guy was good!

Complete Symphonies w/ Howard Griffiths & Surcher Kammerorchester on CPO - includes 8 symphonies recorded from 1997-1002; 4 CD box set.
Clarinet Sonatas & Clarinet Trio w/ Dieter Klocker; Armin Fromm on cello & Thomas Duis on piano - CPO; recorded 2003-4.
Flute Quartets w/ John Littlefield on flute; violin, viola, & cello the other instruments; on Naxos from 2006.
Piano Quartets w/ Andreas Frolich on piano; same strings, as above; CPO, recorded in 2002.
Piano Quintet w/ Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet; also includes similar work by Franz Limmer; on Brilliant, 2003.
Piano Trios w/ Mendelssohn Trio Berlin; again from CPO, dated 2004.
Septet & Octet w/ Linos Ensemble; CPO from 2002.
String Quartets, Vol. 1 w/ Schuppanizigh Quartett; CPO, 2004 - BOY, only 2 of 26!  Not sure 'how many' of the SQs have been recorded?

Hmmm - no Piano Concertos & a bunch of SQs missing; will appreciate comments on other options & 'new' additions - Dave  :)



Almost unexplored by me until now, I had a moment of enormous musical pleasure while listening to Ries' piano quartets, and most particularly op. 17 in E flat major. The slow movement is a jewel, showing a strange baroque influence that makes me somehow think of Haydn, although combined with Beethoven, Hummel and Mendelssohn: in the A section a beautiful ostinato figure drawn by the piano is supported by an ethereal dialogue of the strings. Great music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2010, 02:27:50 PM
Graun Brothers - dates below; just received the disc shown (left) which is absolutely delightful - don't believe that we've had much discussion on this pair (I have only 2 other discs of music by Johann Graun) - both were employed in the court of Frederick the Great; Johann was a violinist and the concertmaster, thus the writing for these chamber works is NOT for the amateur.  Not a lot of bio information to be found - added one pic below!  :)


QuoteGraun, Carl & Johann (c.1703-1759 & c.1702-1771, respectively) - Trios Two Violins played by Anne Schumann & Dorothea on violin; Monika Schwamberger on cello; and Ludger Remy on hammerflügel (fortepiano) - works written in mid-18th century w/ an outstanding review from the Am Record Guide (Jan-Feb 2010) - this music is played w/ gusto; the fortepiano is blended well w/ the other instruments; the recording excellent, as expected from CPO!

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/GraunTriosCPO/779805777_pz86G-O.jpg)  (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Lib-BIG/Pisendel-Johann-Georg-01.jpg) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 05, 2010, 04:30:05 AM
A highly recommended fresh discovery:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HJ54XCCXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Excellent chamber music (harpsichord quintets and flute quartets) from Tommaso Giordani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommaso_Giordani).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on February 05, 2010, 08:24:28 PM
I just surprised myself with how great Schubert's (inaccurately numbered) 10th string quartet is. Three of the movements had themes which I had subconsciously absorbed many years ago and it felt like a rediscovery when listening. Given that these early quartets are rarely discussed, does anybody have any favourites amongst nos. 1 to 11?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 06:26:09 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 05, 2010, 08:24:28 PM
I just surprised myself with how great Schubert's (inaccurately numbered) 10th string quartet is. Three of the movements had themes which I had subconsciously absorbed many years ago and it felt like a rediscovery when listening. Given that these early quartets are rarely discussed, does anybody have any favourites amongst nos. 1 to 11?

Well, I don't know them by "#X" or either by Opus #, the only thing I know is the Deutsch numbers. That said, D 87 is among my very favorites even if you include the later ones. I will happily review the earlier ones this weekend and probably have others for this list, I just can't remember which is which right now. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on February 06, 2010, 06:36:07 AM
What a superb set of references I find in here to help me understand what was going on in the Classical era.  A couple of hours rummaging in here will make me an expert in no time!  (...er...well, a couple of hours aside...)
Great thread Gurn.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 06:42:03 AM
Quote from: John on February 06, 2010, 06:36:07 AM
What a superb set of references I find in here to help me understand what was going on in the Classical era.  A couple of hours rummaging in here will make me an expert in no time!  (...er...well, a couple of hours aside...)
Great thread Gurn.

Well, thanks John. We would love to have you join us when you feel like it. I know your tastes usually run to different eras, but maybe you will be inspired to give us a try. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 06, 2010, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: John's captionBrahms tried to kill me last week

Hah!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 06, 2010, 07:15:53 AM
Quote from: John on February 06, 2010, 06:36:07 AM
Brahms tried to kill me last week

"And you should use an image on the front cover of head with a gun! That is how you should imagine the music! I will send you my own photo to be used! You should also use a blue tailcoat, yellow trousers and top boots, it seems to me that you love color images". Johannes Brahms to the editor Fritz Simrock, 1875

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 07:20:32 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 06, 2010, 07:15:53 AM
"And you should use an image on the front cover of head with a gun! That is how you should imagine the music! I will send you my own photo to be used! You should also use a blue tailcoat, yellow trousers and top boots, it seems to me that you love color images". Johannes Brahms to the editor Fritz Simrock, 1875

:)

;D That's hilarious. Brahms had sarcasm to spare, all stored up for instant use. I admire that in a composer, even if he lived in the totally wrong time to actually be cool... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on February 06, 2010, 08:18:34 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 06, 2010, 07:15:53 AM
"And you should use an image on the front cover of head with a gun! That is how you should imagine the music! I will send you my own photo to be used! You should also use a blue tailcoat, yellow trousers and top boots, it seems to me that you love color images". Johannes Brahms to the editor Fritz Simrock, 1875

:)

Well, I had no idea about that Antoine, thank you. 
I am listening to Chandos Anthems, Handel, by Kings College Choir - David Willcocks.
Hmm... :-\
What is the context in which one should listen and be moved by religious pieces like this?  I don't know.  But today I went out and bought some Boccherini Symphonies, and I'll report back on that, which going by what I heard yesterday will be much more remarkable.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 08:22:48 AM
Quote from: John on February 06, 2010, 08:18:34 AM
Well, I had no idea about that Antoine, thank you. 
I am listening to Chandos Anthems, Handel, by Kings College Choir - David Willcocks.
Hmm... :-\
What is the context in which one should listen and be moved by religious pieces like this?  I don't know.  But today I went out and bought some Boccherini Symphonies, and I'll report back on that, which going by what I heard yesterday will be much more remarkable.

Always a question that has bothered me, too, John. I am devoutly irreligious, so religious music as a concept is totally antithetical to me. However, my favorite composers did some of their best work in that format, so I have to reconcile all that baggage... :-\  (I do manage though, and rather nicely too).

Yes, we are very fond of Boccherini here, do please let us know how that goes. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Talich Quartet / Serri (Double Baß) - K 525 Serenade #13 in G 2nd mvmt - Romanze: Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on February 06, 2010, 08:26:25 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 08:22:48 AM
Always a question that has bothered me, too, John. I am devoutly irreligious, so religious music as a concept is totally antithetical to me.



I am of the same orientation. But I have lots of religious work in my collection. Thankfully, I do not know any of the languages. So it's just music.

Wait, there are some in English, but one can hardly understand English when it is sung anyway, unless one is really paying attention...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 08:32:36 AM
Quote from: springrite on February 06, 2010, 08:26:25 AM
I am of the same orientation. But I have lots of religious work in my collection. Thankfully, I do not know any of the languages. So it's just music.

Wait, there are some in English, but one can hardly understand English when it is sung anyway, unless one is really paying attention...

Yes, there are small blessings concealed everywhere... :)

Unfortunately for me, I was born to be Catholic, and the texts sung in Latin are like a second language to me. I can still see Sister Mary Elephant marching a group of runny-nosed 8 year olds through the snow for Friday AM Mass with full choir... the music was great, the associations, not so much... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Talich Quartet / Serri (Double Baß) - K 525 Serenade #13 in G 4th mvmt - Rondo: Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on February 06, 2010, 09:05:34 AM
While I am here, I have a word about Beethovens "Consecration of the House", which is perhaps my favourite Beethovian  fragment, written, I am assured, in the style of Handel.  The only recording of this I have is Goodman and the Hannover Band.  A Bassoon bobs up and down and in and out in the first section of the piece, representing the gathering crowds all looking and talking and admiring the new Theatre for which it was written.  It is just so perfectly pictured, and fortunately Goodmans is a superb, diamond clear recording.  That Bassoon is a perfect reflection of ther ogling masses who have come to see the building.

Have a wee listen to it yourself!  The bobbing and chatty bassoons are fantastic ... that 'amazing wee bit'....have to look that post up again...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on February 06, 2010, 02:54:00 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 06:26:09 AM
Well, I don't know them by "#X" or either by Opus #, the only thing I know is the Deutsch numbers. That said, D 87 is among my very favorites even if you include the later ones. I will happily review the earlier ones this weekend and probably have others for this list, I just can't remember which is which right now. :)
Indeedie, there are few catalogues where opus numbers are more useless than with Schubert - I'll try to stick with the D's :-* And thank you very much for any future comments on the SQs!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2010, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: Lethe on February 06, 2010, 02:54:00 PM
Indeedie, there are few catalogues where opus numbers are more useless than with Schubert - I'll try to stick with the D's :-* And thank you very much for any future comments on the SQs!

Quite so. The D #'s would be good if everyone would use them, but of course they don't. But when people ask about "Op. 100", I just give it one of these  ::)  and carry on. Who the hell knows what that might be? :D

I've been hip-deep in Haydn's operas all day, but I need a change of pace this evening. I know there are 2 or 3 that I especially like, it will only take hearing the first few bars to remember which they are. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Hans-Ola Ericsson - Hob 19 29 Piece for Flötenuhr (arr for Organ) - Menuett
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Harry on February 08, 2010, 04:50:32 AM
I am now playing Mozart Late Symphonies, the Nos. 32/34/35/36 played by th English Concert, directed by Trevor Pinnock.
Its the 9th cd from this box, and my final opinion is that in many ways, at least for me its preferable to say Christopher Hogwoods account, good as it may be. Pinnock has more grip on tempi and the phrasing is pin pointedly sharp, lines are clearly defined, and rigorously kept in harness. That doesn't mean that fantasy and creativity goes down the drain, far from it, but slackness is kept at bay, and that in my opinion is very important. Added the authentic performance and the more than excellent sound its a real winner. Many instances that bring joy to my ears is the introduction Allegro vivace from the 34th Symphony, jocosely, dance like rhythms, and such fine detail, especially in the strings. And than Haffner No 35, first movement, such grand evocations of the heart, with a delightful Menuetto-Trio. Linz is played with a vigor that has me rocking in my chair.


For the record, if I find the box from Hogwood for a good price, it will go into my collection. That means I have high esteem for Hogwood too.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 04:28:12 AM
Quote from: Harry on February 08, 2010, 04:50:32 AM
I am now playing Mozart Late Symphonies, the Nos. 32/34/35/36 played by th English Concert, directed by Trevor Pinnock.
Its the 9th cd from this box, and my final opinion is that in many ways, at least for me its preferable to say Christopher Hogwoods account, good as it may be. Pinnock has more grip on tempi and the phrasing is pin pointedly sharp, lines are clearly defined, and rigorously kept in harness. That doesn't mean that fantasy and creativity goes down the drain, far from it, but slackness is kept at bay, and that in my opinion is very important. Added the authentic performance and the more than excellent sound its a real winner. Many instances that bring joy to my ears is the introduction Allegro vivace from the 34th Symphony, jocosely, dance like rhythms, and such fine detail, especially in the strings. And than Haffner No 35, first movement, such grand evocations of the heart, with a delightful Menuetto-Trio. Linz is played with a vigor that has me rocking in my chair.


For the record, if I find the box from Hogwood for a good price, it will go into my collection. That means I have high esteem for Hogwood too.

That's a nice set, Harry. I have both of those, and it is hard to state exactly what my take is on the differences without giving a wrong impression. Like if I say the Pinnock is played and recorded so perfectly (mostly) that it doesn't leave as good impression an on me is not to say that I don't admire it, or that the Hogwood isn't well played and recorded. I guess the feeling I get from Hogwood is that I am listening to a real, rough and ready Mozart concert from back in the day. While from Pinnock I can hardly tell it is PI. It has the tenor of modernity to it. There, is that confusing enough? :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 04:40:02 AM
Also Pinnock is just really boring, the spirit of the music is just not there.  He has much more passion and drive in Bach than he does in Mozart.  I think he is at heart a baroque conductor, and should not have ventured into the classical era.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Harry on February 10, 2010, 04:41:55 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 04:28:12 AM
That's a nice set, Harry. I have both of those, and it is hard to state exactly what my take is on the differences without giving a wrong impression. Like if I say the Pinnock is played and recorded so perfectly (mostly) that it doesn't leave as good impression an on me is not to say that I don't admire it, or that the Hogwood isn't well played and recorded. I guess the feeling I get from Hogwood is that I am listening to a real, rough and ready Mozart concert from back in the day. While from Pinnock I can hardly tell it is PI. It has the tenor of modernity to it. There, is that confusing enough? :D

8)

That is perfectly understandable, and more or less my opinion too. I guess Pinnock wins me over with his tight grip on the tempi, and the enormous amount of detail he produces. But as said I will eventually buy the Hogwood set too.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 04:48:55 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 04:40:02 AM
Also Pinnock is just really boring, the spirit of the music is just not there.  He has much more passion and drive in Bach than he does in Mozart.  I think he is at heart a baroque conductor, and should not have ventured into the classical era.

Well, maybe that's it, although boring wasn't what came to mind with me, more like "just too perfect". can that really be such a cardinal sin? I think so... :-\

Quote from: Harry on February 10, 2010, 04:41:55 AM
That is perfectly understandable, and more or less my opinion too. I guess Pinnock wins me over with his tight grip on the tempi, and the enormous amount of detail he produces. But as said I will eventually buy the Hogwood set too.

Funny, you and I being on the opposite sides of this discussion than we usually are. I bought the Hogwood when it was nearly newly released and paid about $175 total for it, which, for 19 disks of this quality is not a bad amount. Since you usually outspend me 10:1 on disks, and this can now be had for about $100US, you give me a smile this AM. Spend the $$$, Harry, it isn't all that much and you will be delighted with the results.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 10, 2010, 04:51:09 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 04:28:12 AM
I guess the feeling I get from Hogwood is that I am listening to a real, rough and ready Mozart concert from back in the day. While from Pinnock I can hardly tell it is PI. It has the tenor of modernity to it. There, is that confusing enough? :D

It's crystal clear for me. I don't have Pinnock in the Mozart symphonies; but I get the same "sensation" when I listen to his Sturm und Drang symphonies: Not boring at all, but too much refined, overworked.   
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 05:31:44 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 10, 2010, 04:51:09 AM
It's crystal clear for me. I don't have Pinnock in the Mozart symphonies; but I get the same "sensation" when I listen to his Sturm und Drang symphonies: Not boring at all, but too much refined, overworked.

Yes, very refined. I think that hits it closer in feeling and accuracy than MY description did. One thing I have always delighted in, in a good PI performance is a certain je ne sais quoi... bite perhaps (really should ask Snipper, the adjective king!) and when it isn't there I really miss it. Might as well be listening to smooth, modern instruments. With all due respect to those who like that stuff, of course. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 10, 2010, 06:09:45 AM
Well, I'm w/ Harry on his impressions of the Pinnock set - owned & enjoy the performances; the argument sounds similar to the one often stated against the Emerson Quartet, i.e. they're just 'too perfect' to be considered worthy performances -  ???  Well, I have quite a few discs of that quartet.  Curiously, in reading the Amazonian reviews of the Pinnock & Hogwood Mozart sets, the same 'likes & dislikes' are tossed back and forth!

Now, I'd actually like to acquire the Hogwood set also, mainly because of the 'extras' - Newbury Comics is selling the set for $80 on the Amazon Marketplace - I'll give this potential purchase some thought over the next few days -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on February 10, 2010, 06:10:32 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 05:31:44 AM
Yes, very refined. I think that hits it closer in feeling and accuracy than MY description did. One thing I have always delighted in, in a good PI performance is a certain je ne sais quoi... bite perhaps (really should ask Snipper, the adjective king!) and when it isn't there I really miss it. Might as well be listening to smooth, modern instruments. With all due respect to those who like that stuff, of course. :D

8)

I have recently been revisiting Beethoven symphony sets and have re-listened to the ones I already owned, both modern instrument orchestras (Szell, Karajan, Bernstein, Bloomstedt) and the few PI recordings I have  (Gardiner's set and the Norrington 9th) and bought a couple of individual CDs of Jarvi and Dausgaard - interpretations which while using a modern instrument orchestra, granted a leaner meaner group, but employing unconventional tempo and articulation choices.

The upshot is that Gardiner sounded more conventional than Jarvi or Dausgaard and Szell more convincing than Karajan or Bernstein. 

I liked Norrington's 9th and will eventually get his complete set.  I also want to get Immerseel's set, but as far as I can tell it is oop and unavailable at this time.

I come away from this little exercise thinking that merely using period instruments does not imbue an otherwise conventional approach with new found interest.

Favorites so far are Jarvi and Szell, although from what I've read about Immerseel and Norrington, they may trump them all since what I am finding that I enjoy most in Beethoven symphony performances are quick tempos, dramatic dynamics, but not exaggerated, and wit instead of gravitas.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 06:15:26 AM
I'm sorry Franco but why do you consistently write Daumgaard?  Isn't it Dausgaard? ???

I'm not a nazi about grammar or spelling, I'm terrible at both but I think that names should be spelled correctly.  Since you are usually so careful about it, I can't help that think that there must be an underlying reason that I'm not getting. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on February 10, 2010, 06:17:15 AM
Thanks, DavidW for the correction - just a brain fart - he's a new conductor to me and I got his name wrong.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 10, 2010, 06:26:03 AM
Below is part of a post left last night in the listening thread - the composer spans the Mozart years, but still died young (losing his head during the French Revolution).  Edelmann came from Alsace, so a German-French background; he worked mainly in Paris, but little is known about his life (in fact, I cannot even find a decent Wiki article on him - a rarity!). 

His musical output is little known although the liner notes state that he published 15 volumes of 'keyboard works' between 1775-86 - not sure how big the volumes may have been?  I cannot find much more regarding available recordings of these works!  My main interest in obtaining this disc was to hear Spanyi on the tangent piano which he plays w/ delight (have only a few other discs of performances on this instrument - have not gotten into his CPE Bach recordings yet!) - an image of the piano is inserted below (right) - built in 1993 by Ghislain Potvlieghe, Belgium after Baldassare Pastori's instrument from 1799 -  :)

QuoteEdelmann, Johann (1749-1794) - Keyboard/String Quartets w/ Miklos Spanyi on the tangent piano - I'm really enjoying this instrument (i.e. wooden slips striking the strings w/ a variety of ways to change the tone and coloring of the sound produced) - this performer's MAJOR output has been the CPE Bach solo & concerto keyboard works played on this instrument - I've not acquired any of these discs YET!  I guess that an eventual BOX by BIS may be offered, but when?  ;) ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/EdelmannSpanyi/784905064_zg28f-O.jpg)  (http://d2umcibyw4ztss.cloudfront.net/img/51515/51515-1.jpg) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 10, 2010, 06:28:14 AM
All our brains do that from time to time, Franco.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 06:55:21 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 10, 2010, 06:28:14 AM
All our brains do that from time to time, Franco.

Speak for yourself Karbl. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 10, 2010, 07:01:17 AM
Well all, 'enough is enough'!  ;) ;D  That price below @ Newbury Comics was too hard to resist - just 'pulled the trigger' and put in an order for the Hogwood set -  :)

Quote from: SonicMan on February 10, 2010, 06:09:45 AM
Now, I'd actually like to acquire the Hogwood set also, mainly because of the 'extras' - Newbury Comics is selling the set for $80 on the Amazon Marketplace - I'll give this potential purchase some thought over the next few days -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 07:03:10 AM
You won't be disappointed Dave. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 07:06:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 10, 2010, 07:03:10 AM
You won't be disappointed Dave. :)

What he said. I paid more than twice that, and I'm still not disappointed! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 07:06:15 AM
What he said. I paid more than twice that, and I'm still not disappointed! :)

8)

I assume there's harpsichord tinkling away in all the symphonies in that set?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 10, 2010, 07:46:28 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 07:42:49 AM
I assume there's harpsichord tinkling away in all the symphonies in that set?

Why all . . . ?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 10, 2010, 07:50:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 10, 2010, 07:46:28 AM
Why all . . . ?

The Mackerras set has an H. tinkling away even in the late symphonies, so the possibility of that happening in a HIPer set is very much there. Just sayin'...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 07:52:40 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 10, 2010, 07:46:28 AM
Why all . . . ?

I would find it more appropriate to the early symphonies than the late ones.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 10, 2010, 08:01:40 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 08:15:23 AM
Well, if you note the picture of the cover in Sonic Dave's post, you will see the name of Jaap Schröder there. He, in fact, conducts the AAM in this series. Hogwood is the continuo player. So yes, there is going to be continuo played, to be sure. However, the focus is not on that, in most cases you would have to listen for it especially to even notice it. The point of it is to make things blend in and have continuity, so if it sticks out like a sore thumb, then it isn't doing its job properly. :)

8)

FWIW, Hogwood goes just the opposite in his Haydn symphonies, using no continuo whatever, while Goodman and Solomons both do. Go figure. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 08:24:43 AM
Scarpia,
Might I suggest that is continuo doesn't appeal to you, you try the Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus Wien disks?  These have been very well reviewed here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/May06/Early_Mozart_82876757362.htm), and in fact I am thinking of hunting some down myself. I imagine they are OOP and $$$, but what the hell, still worth a look. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 08:27:11 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 08:15:23 AM
Well, if you note the picture of the cover in Sonic Dave's post, you will see the name of Jaap Schröder there. He, in fact, conducts the AAM in this series. Hogwood is the continuo player. So yes, there is going to be continuo played, to be sure. However, the focus is not on that, in most cases you would have to listen for it especially to even notice it. The point of it is to make things blend in and have continuity, so if it sticks out like a sore thumb, then it isn't doing its job properly. :)

8)

FWIW, Hogwood goes just the opposite in his Haydn symphonies, using no continuo whatever, while Goodman and Solomons both do. Go figure. :)

Well, as an otherwise enthusiastic HIPster, the continuo is the  bane of my existence.  My personal opinion is that continuo continued to be used in performing symphonies in the late classical era because the concept of the conductor was not yet developed. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 08:29:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 08:24:43 AM
Scarpia,
Might I suggest that is continuo doesn't appeal to you, you try the Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus Wien disks?  These have been very well reviewed here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/May06/Early_Mozart_82876757362.htm), and in fact I am thinking of hunting some down myself. I imagine they are OOP and $$$, but what the hell, still worth a look. :)

8)

I have those, as well as the big Warner box with all of Harnoncourt's RCO Mozart recordings.  For some of the RCO recordings I still have the Telefunken LPs.  Wouldn't be without them.   ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on February 10, 2010, 08:30:24 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 08:15:23 AM
Well, if you note the picture of the cover in Sonic Dave's post, you will see the name of Jaap Schröder there. He, in fact, conducts the AAM in this series. Hogwood is the continuo player. So yes, there is going to be continuo played, to be sure. However, the focus is not on that, in most cases you would have to listen for it especially to even notice it. The point of it is to make things blend in and have continuity, so if it sticks out like a sore thumb, then it isn't doing its job properly. :)

8)

FWIW, Hogwood goes just the opposite in his Haydn symphonies, using no continuo whatever, while Goodman and Solomons both do. Go figure. :)

I am guessing that there is insufficient documentation to sway the matter definitively one way or the other.  My perspective is necessarily anachronistic, but continuo on the great later Mozart symphonies feels counter-intuitive to me.

Do these gents play the first two Beethoven symphonies with continuo?  The Opus 55?
; )

Come to think of it, is there any reason to rule out continuo for any of the Beethoven symphonies? . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 10, 2010, 08:47:55 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 08:27:11 AM
Well, as an otherwise enthusiastic HIPster, the continuo is the  bane of my existence.  My personal opinion is that continuo continued to be used in performing symphonies in the late classical era because the concept of the conductor was not yet developed.

The harpischord in the Hogwood recordings is quite discreet...like when you hear the instrument live with an orchestra: buried in the mix most of the time. It's well known that I hate the instrument but it's use in these recordings doesn't bother me. It's nothing like Goodman's Haydn where he transformed each symphony into a harpsichord concerto!  :(

Sarge
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 09:02:54 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 10, 2010, 08:30:24 AM
I am guessing that there is insufficient documentation to sway the matter definitively one way or the other.  My perspective is necessarily anachronistic, but continuo on the great later Mozart symphonies feels counter-intuitive to me.

Do these gents play the first two Beethoven symphonies with continuo?  The Opus 55?
; )

Come to think of it, is there any reason to rule out continuo for any of the Beethoven symphonies? . . .

I'm betting that if I try hard enough I can find a recording of Bruckner 8 with continuo.   8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2010, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 10, 2010, 09:02:54 AM
I'm betting that if I try hard enough I can find a recording of Bruckner 8 with continuo.   8)

Good god! :o :o

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 10, 2010, 08:30:24 AM
I am guessing that there is insufficient documentation to sway the matter definitively one way or the other.  My perspective is necessarily anachronistic, but continuo on the great later Mozart symphonies feels counter-intuitive to me.

Do these gents play the first two Beethoven symphonies with continuo?  The Opus 55?
; )

Come to think of it, is there any reason to rule out continuo for any of the Beethoven symphonies? . . .

No, Karl, there actually is a reason that continuo hung on for about 25 years longer than it was needed for; no one thought to dump it when it was appropriate. You know, change in any form is not an overnight thing. Continuo had been around forever (so to speak) and the realization that it had become redundant was slow to dawn. It is very likely that Haydn dumped it early times, like 1760 or so, since there is never a single one of his manuscripts (symphonic) that has any figures or indications in it. Neither does the music room at Esterhazy have a harpsichord or a place to put one when an orchestra is playing. Finally, it is thought that Haydn led from the violin rather than the keyboard.

Not to lionize the man as a complete visionary though (even though he was in some ways), he wrote much of his non-symphonic early music as though the cello or bass viol was playing figured bass, and this sort of retarded his growth in that arena for a while.  :) 

Still it was a long time before the players (moreso than the composers) realized that continuo was tits on a boar hog with sonata form music.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 13, 2010, 03:41:33 PM
With some degree of astonishment, because nothing anticipated such a surprise, I found out yesterday that Naxos released a CD with the orchestral music contained in Joseph Martin Kraus' Aeneas i Cartago, a huge opera in one prologue and five acts, supposed to be one of the highest achievements of its author. Although the performance led by Patrick Gallois could be improved in some respects, there is some extremely good music in this CD. (Listeners fond of overtures will be particularly pleased, for two can be found here: one for the prologue, and one for the opera itself. And the introduction to act V is not far from the concept of an overture.

I've been an admirer of Kraus' music for some years, but I never supposed him to keep such a level in all compositions. For sure, there are works better than others (or ones that I like more than others, if you prefer), but they are never less than good, often very good, and many times excellent. This release makes me hope that Naxos (or other label) could be bold enough to provide a complete recording of this opera.

The "Gurnian period" is recovering a lost treasure! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 03:57:11 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on February 13, 2010, 03:41:33 PM
With some degree of astonishment, because nothing anticipated such a surprise, I found out yesterday that Naxos released a CD with the orchestral music contained in Joseph Martin Kraus' Aeneas i Cartago, a huge opera in one prologue and five acts, supposed to be one of the highest achievements of its author. Although the performance led by Patrick Gallois could be improved in some respects, there is some extremely good music in this CD. (Listeners fond of overtures will be particularly pleased, for two can be found here: one for the prologue, and one for the opera itself. And the introduction to act V is not far from the concept of an overture.

I've been an admirer of Kraus' music for some years, but I never supposed him to keep such a level in all compositions. For sure, there are works better than others (or ones that I like more than others, if you prefer), but they are never less than good, often very good, and many times excellent. This release makes me hope that Naxos (or other label) could be bold enough to provide a complete recording of this opera.

The "Gurnian period" is recovering a lost treasure! ;)

Well, that IS a big surprise, Gabriel. I have read about this work, but clearly never heard any of it. Naxos have been heading more and more towards big stuff lately. I picked up Haydn's "Il Ritorno di Tobia" a couple of months ago, for example. A gigantic oratorio that he composed <>1775 for the Viennese society of composers. A 3 disk set, and splendid at that. Just the sort of thing you wouldn't have picked Naxos to record. So they could do Kraus' entire opera if they wanted, I expect. Hope they do. :)

Speaking of big works, has anyone heard the other oratorio (his very first) of Haydn, "Applausus", which is recently out on Capriccio? It is so far unavailable here, but it has been available at some time in Europe, just not right now, it seems. Curious for any feedback. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Cappella Coloniensis / A. Spering / VokalEnsemble Köln - Hob 24a 04 Cantata in A "Qual dubbio ormai" pt 2 - Aria "se ogni giorno"
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 13, 2010, 04:13:16 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 03:57:11 PM
Speaking of big works, has anyone heard the other oratorio (his very first) of Haydn, "Applausus", which is recently out on Capriccio? It is so far unavailable here, but it has been available at some time in Europe, just not right now, it seems. Curious for any feedback.

I haven't seen the Capriccio release, but I remember Opus 111 had one recording of it... that I never bought.

By the way, Gurn, I bought a recent Hungaroton release, Krommer's 3 string quartets op. 7 played by the Authentic Quartet. Even written in mid-classical style (like late Mozart and Haydn), you can discover Krommerian "spice" inside (e.g., sparkling burlesque motives treated as a kaleidoscope in the first quartet). Not essential, but classical string quartet fans will be very grateful. Like me. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 13, 2010, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on February 13, 2010, 04:13:16 PM
By the way, Gurn, I bought a recent Hungaroton release, Krommer's 3 string quartets op. 7 played by the Authentic Quartet. ..........................

Gabriel - I have a number of discs w/ the Authentic Quartet, which I've enjoyed and discussed in previous posts - owned a lot of Krommer, but the only single disc of SQs is shown below w/ the Marcolini Quartett on period instruments - recording includes 3 SQs from Op. 19, 74, and 103, so much to be appreciated in this composer - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 05:37:31 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on February 13, 2010, 04:13:16 PM
I haven't seen the Capriccio release, but I remember Opus 111 had one recording of it... that I never bought.

Ah yes, I think that's the one that is selling for $100+ right now. Well, I will find out about the other one soon enough since Amazon is supposed to let me know that they have it, next week, I hope. :)

QuoteBy the way, Gurn, I bought a recent Hungaroton release, Krommer's 3 string quartets op. 7 played by the Authentic Quartet. Even written in mid-classical style (like late Mozart and Haydn), you can discover Krommerian "spice" inside (e.g., sparkling burlesque motives treated as a kaleidoscope in the first quartet). Not essential, but classical string quartet fans will be very grateful. Like me. :)

Oh, I know I would like that disk, your saying so just spurs me more towards it.  I wrote here earlier (while you were on hiatus) about reading really bad review of the Authentic Quartet, which has put me off badly from buying anything by them. I think I am past that now though... :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
La Petite Bande \ Kuijken - Hob 01 101 Symphony in D 1st mvmt - Adagio - Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 14, 2010, 05:24:55 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 13, 2010, 04:43:04 PM
Gabriel - I have a number of discs w/ the Authentic Quartet, which I've enjoyed and discussed in previous posts - owned a lot of Krommer, but the only single disc of SQs is shown below w/ the Marcolini Quartett on period instruments - recording includes 3 SQs from Op. 19, 74, and 103, so much to be appreciated in this composer - Dave  :D

That CD is particularly interesting because it shows the evolution of Krommer's style in different moments. What I really appreciate in Krommer was that he was able to develop an unique voice without shattering classical balance. He keeps it formally, but his expression has something weird, even ironic. He got the sense of joke from Haydn, but it is the character of the joke that changes. In this op. 7, an early work, you can already see it; curiously, it is much less evident in his orchestral works.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 05:37:31 PM
Oh, I know I would like that disk, your saying so just spurs me more towards it.  I wrote here earlier (while you were on hiatus) about reading really bad review of the Authentic Quartet, which has put me off badly from buying anything by them. I think I am past that now though... :D

They are not the best string quartet available, but they must be thanked for their courage to record this forgotten repertoire. I must point out that I really enjoy this CD. If they decide to continue a Krommer series, they will do a great service to music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 18, 2010, 09:07:50 AM
I must write a couple of lines about Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (1772-1806), whose works have been seldom commented in GMG. Incredibly beautiful music that has been incredibly ignored by most specialists and amateurs during two centuries.

Perhaps Prince Louis Ferdinand didn't concentrate all his efforts to composition, his works being relatively scarce, but I have purchased the three CDs of his chamber music recorded by the Trio Parnassus, and they show nothing less than music at the highest level of that time - so standing beside the best chamber music of Beethoven, Hummel, Rejcha, Spohr or Schubert. I don't know what is more worthy of praise in his works: the beautiful melodic ideas, the impressive harmonic command, or the beauty of the sound of the ensemble, including piano parts that are among the most beautiful of that time. Perhaps his interest in counterpoint was not the one shown by Beethoven, Rejcha or Cherubini, but on the other hand there are modulations that sound like Schumann or Chopin. These chamber works are really a treasure, and in my opinion they should be known and enjoyed by all people interested in the music of late classicism.

Changing briefly the subject towards another composer, I said some time ago I would write some lines on the wind quintets of Franz Danzi, as I had bought the set of three CDs released by BIS some years ago. I was not particularly impressed, these works seeming to me clearly less interesting than the quintets written by Rejcha.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2010, 07:17:32 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on February 18, 2010, 09:07:50 AM
I must write a couple of lines about Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (1772-1806), whose works have been seldom commented in GMG. Incredibly beautiful music that has been incredibly ignored by most specialists and amateurs during two centuries.......................

Gabriel - I own and enjoy Vol.2 in that MDG series - perhaps I should add some more to my 'wish list' after your discussion; his short listing of about a dozen opus numbers can be found HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Louis_Ferdinand_of_Prussia_%281772-1806%29) - his too short life ended in a battle against the French during the Napoleonic Wars - a deeply felt lost to the Prussian Court; he was a nephew of Frederick the Great -  :-\
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
Wolfie's Symphonies w/ Hogwood - before going to bed tonight, I'll listen to the first disc in this 19-CD box set which just arrived yesterday - will take a while and I plan to do some direct comparisons w/ my Pinnock box (any recommendations as to which works may be the best to compare?) - will periodically report back to this and/or the listening thread -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartHogwood/791652954_7EVMm-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on February 18, 2010, 09:14:39 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 18, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
Wolfie's Symphonies w/ Hogwood - before going to bed tonight, I'll listen to the first disc in this 19-CD box set which just arrived yesterday - will take a while and I plan to do some direct comparisons w/ my Pinnock box (any recommendations as to which works may be the best to compare?) - will periodically report back to this and/or the listening thread -  :D
Try comparing No.'s 20 & 25, which I thought Hogwood was rather lax about as opposed to Pinnock, who shines.  Not sure there's a whole lot of difference between the two, though my impression over all favoured Pinnock's work.  It's pretty hard to mess up these glorious and well-honed symphonies.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on February 19, 2010, 08:15:25 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 18, 2010, 07:17:32 PM
Gabriel - I own and enjoy Vol.2 in that MDG series - perhaps I should add some more to my 'wish list' after your discussion; his short listing of about a dozen opus numbers can be found HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Louis_Ferdinand_of_Prussia_%281772-1806%29) - his too short life ended in a battle against the French during the Napoleonic Wars - a deeply felt lost to the Prussian Court; he was a nephew of Frederick the Great -  :-\

Dave, there are three volumes and each of them is outstanding. The denomination for volume three is remarkable, because although it is announced as "piano trios", there are two quartets and one quintet! ;D But do not miss them: if you like chamber works and music from the late classicism, this is essential listening.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 24, 2010, 07:04:03 PM
Just received a BRO bargain for $6 and taking a chance - just listening tonight but worth a mention here:

Danzi, Margarethe (1768-1800) - Fortepiano & Violin Sonatas w/ Antoinette Lohmann & Vaughan Schlepp; she was the wife of Franz Danzi, but died tragically early at the age of 32 yrs (likely from tuberculosis, although the liner notes state a lung ailment).  Her fame was mainly as an opera singer (and seemed to be quite well respected and famous in a wide variety of roles).  She (and her brother) lived w/ Leopold Mozart from 1782-84, and apparently received a well-rounded education, which obviously would have involved musical and composition instruction.

The booklet liner notes are about two dozen pages in English w/ detailed discussion of her family (father was Theobald Marchand) and many inter-relationships w/ others of the times, including Wolfgang & his sister, the Webers, the Danzis, etc.   These performances are on period instruments, and are quite pleasant - nothing profound or innovative, i.e. she learned her 'classical' composing quite well from Wolfie's Papa (who she affectionately called) - these 3 sonatas on the recording were published after her death and the exact time of their composing is uncertain.  Recording is from 2005 and is done well.

Does this disc add to one's collection of similar works of the time - not sure - certainly not for the superior quality of the works; however, a woman composing at that time, wife for Franz Danzi, trained my Leopold Mozart, and performed on period instruments - well, for the 'completist' and at the asking price, maybe a consideration?  ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DanziMFPianoViolin/795740303_qCqqP-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on February 25, 2010, 02:39:09 AM
QuoteShe (and her brother) lived w/ Leopold Mozart from 1782-84, and apparently received a well-rounded education, which obviously would have involved musical and composition instruction.

Questionable theory, since as we all know there is no evidence that Leopold Mozart ever studied at a accredited music school, or was qualified to serve as a music instructor for anyone, including his son, much less, complete strangers who happened to be living in his home.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on February 25, 2010, 12:29:44 PM
Quote from: Franco on February 25, 2010, 02:39:09 AM
Questionable theory, since as we all know there is no evidence that Leopold Mozart ever studied at a accredited music school, or was qualified to serve as a music instructor for anyone, including his son, much less, complete strangers who happened to be living in his home.

:)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/LeopoldMozartPortraitFromViolinschule.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2010, 12:41:54 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on February 25, 2010, 12:29:44 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/LeopoldMozartPortraitFromViolinschule.jpg)

Don't be fooled; Franco is making an inside joke at the expense of a former member here, who sincerely believed it. Reminds me of a Firesign Theater sketch: "Everything You Know is Wrong".   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on February 25, 2010, 01:36:40 PM
I'm beginning to think that Newman wasn't even a person and merely a meme! :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on February 25, 2010, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2010, 12:41:54 PM
Don't be fooled; Franco is making an inside joke at the expense of a former member here, who sincerely believed it. Reminds me of a Firesign Theater sketch: "Everything You Know is Wrong".   :D

8)

It did sound over the top...but I figured that Papa Mozart deserves his own picture, for a change.

More seriously, are there any recordings of Leopold's music you would recommend?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 25, 2010, 02:08:18 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on February 25, 2010, 01:47:40 PM
More seriously, are there any recordings of Leopold's music you would recommend?

Well, I guess if one owns enough of Wolfie's early works, such as the symphonies, there likely is some of Leopold's efforts in the compositions -  ;) ;D

But more seriously, there are quite a few discs listed on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=leopold+mozart&x=0&y=0) of Leopold Mozart; actually, I've had my 'eye' on that Chandos Bamert CD for a while, just waiting for some positive comments from others, I guess -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on March 02, 2010, 07:05:12 PM
I tried some of Leopold's music a while back.  It came across as really programmatic in a nauseating, "Disney" sort of way.  I doubt I'll ever return to his music because of it.  :(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on March 05, 2010, 11:07:53 AM
Over the past couple of days I have been listening to some Haydn (in between other stuff).  Haydn is actually quite remarkable, but I'm preaching to the converted in this thread!  There is a lot of feeling in his symphonies, plenty of melody, anger, love, and muiscal logistics.  What I've found is that while he can be perfectly soft and melodical in all the right places, he can also be unaccountably angry!
I'm starting a fuller exploration of the Classical Period with this composer - quite a history too!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on March 05, 2010, 11:17:59 AM
Quote from: John on March 05, 2010, 11:07:53 AM
I'm starting a fuller exploration of the Classical Period with this composer - quite a history too!

Have you spent time looking around the Haus (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.0.html)? :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2010, 11:20:04 AM
Quote from: John on March 05, 2010, 11:07:53 AM
Over the past couple of days I have been listening to some Haydn (in between other stuff).  Haydn is actually quite remarkable, but I'm preaching to the converted in this thread!  There is a lot of feeling in his symphonies, plenty of melody, anger, love, and muiscal logistics.  What I've found is that while he can be perfectly soft and melodical in all the right places, he can also be unaccountably angry!
I'm starting a fuller exploration of the Classical Period with this composer - quite a history too!

Well, John, if you are going to start a survey, there is no better place to start than with Haydn. I've been a fan for years, but when I recently decided to go deeper, I was damn near overwhelmed by the variety of ideas and execution logistics to be found. It is music that I simply don't get tired of since every time I hear a piece I hear it entirely differently. Enjoy, amigo!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 31, 2010, 04:32:46 PM
Myslivecek, Josef (1737-1781) - this composer has already been discussed in this thread (and also has his own 'short' thread - check the composer index, if interested), so will not review his life, nickname, or relationship to the Mozart family.

But just acquired the disc below (left) - String Quintets w/ a group called Pro arte antiqua Praha (two violas), recorded in Prague in 1996 (birthplace of the composer) on period instruments; liner notes divided into two parts; first a short bio of Myslivecek, and second a short discussion by the first violinist of the historic objectives of the recordings, i.e. trying to re-create the playing practices of the times - not sure about the strings (i.e. gut vs. metal)?  However, this is a wonderful recording, not only because Josef M. could write well for strings, but also the performance and recording are excellent; if you're interested in his 'chamber works' this is a worthwhile consideration.

Also, looking forward to a recent order, i.e. the Wind Works of Myslivecek on CPO - believe that one of our members (likely Harry) has already given this disc a good recommendation - these eastern European composers of this era really had a great talent for string & wind writing - looking forward to this disc!  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MyslivecekStQuintets/824302424_33yGk-O.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RWjnM3hsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 31, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Yet another composer of this era completely NEW to me, and my first disc:

Titz, Anton (1742-1810) - String Quartets, V.2 w/ the Hoffmeister Quartet - this group obviously has a first volume, and a V.3 is about to be released according to Amazon!  Not sure 'how many' future volumes will become available - chamber music, esp. SQs, seemed to be a major emphasis of this composer.

Titz was German, born in Nuremberg but spent time in Vienna and was befriended by Gluck; Titz was a virtuoso violinist which impacted greatly on his composing.  In 1771, he moved to St. Petersburg, and was employed at the Russian court during the reigns of Catherine the Great and Alexander I.  He seemed to have written a LOT of chamber works (of course w/ emphasis on the violin) - how much more will be discovered & recorded? - my first experience is quite positive!  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/TitzSQsV2HoffmeisterQ/816992580_hEBB9-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on March 31, 2010, 10:43:29 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 31, 2010, 04:32:46 PM
Myslivecek, Josef (1737-1781) - this composer has already been discussed in this thread (and also has his own 'short' thread - check the composer index, if interested), so will not review his life, nickname, or relationship to the Mozart family.

But just acquired the disc below (left) - String Quintets w/ a group called Pro arte antiqua Praha (two violas), recorded in Prague in 1996 (birthplace of the composer) on period instruments; liner notes divided into two parts; first a short bio of Myslivecek, and second a short discussion by the first violinist of the historic objectives of the recordings, i.e. trying to re-create the playing practices of the times - not sure about the strings (i.e. gut vs. metal)?  However, this is a wonderful recording, not only because Josef M. could write well for strings, but also the performance and recording are excellent; if you're interested in his 'chamber works' this is a worthwhile consideration.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MyslivecekStQuintets/824302424_33yGk-O.jpg) 

Dave, I have by Pro arte antiqua Praha (http://www.musica.cz/static/proarte/) a Dvorak disc (http://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=shop_item&id=F10114&site=en) and if that is anything to go by, performance must be topnotch! :) I was very impressed with their way of phrasing and by their warm and and subtle sound.  :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 01, 2010, 04:45:51 AM
Nice to see that the truth about Mozart (http://naxosofamerica.blogspot.com/2010/04/wa-mozart-proven-fraud.html) has finally come to light!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2010, 02:05:44 PM
Although not known for his pianoforte music, Cherubini turns out (not surprisingly) to have been a very fine composer for the keyboard. Despite the difficulty of getting much information about this particular facet of his oeuvre, I nonetheless enjoy the little bit that I do have. One piece is a Capriccio ou Etude for Piano composed in 1789. Unless I'm sadly mistaken (which I admit to having been lately :'( ), in 1789, Luigi was still in Vienna getting educated and building his reputation.

The other works I have I got just recently, on the disk pictured here. It just turned up in a used bin, I was totally unaware that Luigi even composed any sonatas! However, it is a nice disk, and I would place the music in the same time frame as the Capriccio. The booklet is singularly uninformative in any regard, I'm hoping that someone or other here may have run across this or another recording of these 6 little works and can share some knowledge with me/us. :)

8)


----------------
Listening to:
Francesco Giammarco - Cherubini Sonata #4 in G for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Rondo: Andantino
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on April 02, 2010, 07:35:07 PM
Speaking of Cherubini, are you familiar with this one?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xF2xHfYEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It's one of those recording I'm not sorry I bought, but which I can't honestly say that you would be missing out on something if you didn't get it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2010, 06:25:44 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on April 02, 2010, 07:35:07 PM
Speaking of Cherubini, are you familiar with this one?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xF2xHfYEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It's one of those recording I'm not sorry I bought, but which I can't honestly say that you would be missing out on something if you didn't get it.

No, I haven't seen that recording before. However, I have 2 complete cycles of the SQ's; Quartetto David on BIS (modern instruments), and Hausmusik London on cpo (period instruments). This is some very fine music, so anyone who hasn't heard it, any of the 3 cycles recommended here would be a good choice. Never a regret. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Luc Devos \ Sigiswald Kuijken - K 317d 378 Sonata in Bb for Fortepiano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 03, 2010, 09:43:54 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on April 02, 2010, 07:35:07 PM
Speaking of Cherubini, are you familiar with this one?

It's one of those recording I'm not sorry I bought, but which I can't honestly say that you would be missing out on something if you didn't get it.
We reviewed that one over at CMM a while back.  Very exciting performances, better than Hausmusik in that respect, though I'm sad to say they're not on period instruments.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on April 03, 2010, 07:28:44 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2010, 06:25:44 AM
No, I haven't seen that recording before. However, I have 2 complete cycles of the SQ's; Quartetto David on BIS (modern instruments), and Hausmusik London on cpo (period instruments). This is some very fine music, so anyone who hasn't heard it, any of the 3 cycles recommended here would be a good choice. Never a regret. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Luc Devos \ Sigiswald Kuijken - K 317d 378 Sonata in Bb for Fortepiano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Hmm, that suggests it's due for a new listen. 
I have, btw, also seen (but did not buy) a cycle by the Melos Quartet on Brilliant.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 05, 2010, 03:46:15 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on April 03, 2010, 07:28:44 PM
Hmm, that suggests it's due for a new listen. 
I have, btw, also seen (but did not buy) a cycle by the Melos Quartet on Brilliant.

And it's brilliant. In general, there are not too many recordings available of Cherubini's music (it is really a shame), but in the case of the string quartets it's possible to choose among some good ones.

Moving to the operatic area, I've noticed that Jérémie Rhorer will conduct Lodoïska this year in Paris. I hope it will be recorded, even if there is already a good recording available (Muti). But even in that case, a big gap will remain, because many of the most important operas haven't been recorded at all (I'm thinking most of all of Démophon, Eliza, Anacréon, Faniska and Ali Baba, unless there are ancient recordings that I'm not aware of).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on April 10, 2010, 07:29:01 AM
I just finished reading Dittersdorf's autobiography. It is just as enjoyable (though less over-the-top) as Berlioz's memoirs, and along with the usual fun stuff, Dittersdorf offers a lot of interesting points - the biggest being that even in their lifetimes Haydn and Mozart seem to have been considered the most impressive of living composers, and despite there being many others who scarcely have a bad word said against them (Dittersdorf himself, Cherubini, Pleyel, etc), it is indicated that H&M are considered "special" by contemporaries of good taste. It goes against what I had considered about Haydn, which was that much of his music was undiscovered during his lifetime, but the book seems to indicate his chamber music and even masses were reasonably widespread during his lifetime. It also somewhat runs contrary to popular classical music anecdotes offering great composers considering what we now find lesser lights to be the finest they know, and the classical "canon" being a 19th century invention.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 07:42:27 AM
Quote from: Lethe on April 10, 2010, 07:29:01 AM
I just finished reading Dittersdorf's autobiography. It is just as enjoyable (though less over-the-top) as Berlioz's memoirs, and along with the usual fun stuff, Dittersdorf offers a lot of interesting points - the biggest being that even in their lifetimes Haydn and Mozart seem to have been considered the most impressive of living composers, and despite there being many others who scarcely have a bad word said against them (Dittersdorf himself, Cherubini, Pleyel, etc), it is indicated that H&M are considered "special" by contemporaries of good taste. It goes against what I had considered about Haydn, which was that much of his music was undiscovered during his lifetime, but the book seems to indicate his chamber music and even masses were reasonably widespread during his lifetime. It also somewhat runs contrary to popular classical music anecdotes offering great composers considering what we now find lesser lights to be the finest they know, and the classical "canon" being a 19th century invention.

Wow, lot's of things going on in this post, Sara. :) 

Haydn, from 1765 or so, was famous in Austria (-Hungary) and even as far as Berlin and Paris. The dissension that you may have read about concerning him stemmed from the (already) influential critics of Berlin and Northern Germany in general who were extremely conservative in terms of musical construction and thought that Haydn was a frickin' loony. Haydn attributed their criticism to "they weren't good enough musicians to play my works properly". I'm sure the truth is somewhere between these two extremes.   :D

Mozart was always recognized by his peers as a genius. The dissension there came from the same faction who thought Haydn was too extreme, believing that Mozart was also OTT; he used unusual rhythms and harmonic chromaticism. The remainder thought he was excellent. Still his fame didn't extend to the common man, it was pretty much connoisseurs only. It wasn't until after his death that he really became well known to all classes. Actually, in that regard I look at him as a victim of historical circumstance. Public concerts were just not done, and the huge growth of Hausmusik didn't get legs until a couple of years after his death. So it goes. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 10, 2010, 09:19:09 AM
I just wanted to say that the whole canon thing is not recognizing men of genius (Bach and Monteverdi were also recognized as such, so it extends well before classical era) it's catering to the point of nearly excluding all else. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on April 10, 2010, 09:21:00 AM
Thanks for the reply :)

Somewhat related to the thread, I'm spinning a disc of Sammartini's symphonies. Now it's twice that I've been surprised at the invention and fun of these things - reminicent of Boccherini, maybe, but with their own clunky charm.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 10, 2010, 09:24:59 AM
Quote from: Lethe on April 10, 2010, 09:21:00 AM
Thanks for the reply :)

Somewhat related to the thread, I'm spinning a disc of Sammartini's symphonies. Now it's twice that I've been surprised at the invention and fun of these things - reminicent of Boccherini, maybe, but with their own clunky charm.

Hey that's not canon dude! ;)  jeje ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 09:28:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 10, 2010, 09:19:09 AM
I just wanted to say that the whole canon thing is not recognizing men of genius (Bach and Monteverdi were also recognized as such, so it extends well before classical era) it's catering to the point of nearly excluding all else. :)

Oh sure, can't argue with that. In the 18th century, music was played when it was fresh and new, and then allowed to fade out as it was replaced with newer music. Rather like music today (damn, I hate to compare it to pop music, but that IS a similarity). "The Canon" really was a 19th century thing in the sense that we recognize it today. You are correct in saying that it isn't really a recognition of men of genius so much as it is an adoption of certain works as "immortal" and others as .... not immortal. Which is why the entire oeuvre of Beethoven, for example, isn't in The Canon.

I personally think the entire concept sucks, but hey, what do I know?  Not like I'm Josquin or someone like that... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 007 Symphony in C 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 09:30:13 AM
Quote from: Lethe on April 10, 2010, 09:21:00 AM
Thanks for the reply :)

Somewhat related to the thread, I'm spinning a disc of Sammartini's symphonies. Now it's twice that I've been surprised at the invention and fun of these things - reminiscent of Boccherini, maybe, but with their own clunky charm.

Yeah, I like Sammartini, I have just the one box of 3 disks of his early string symphonies, but I do quite enjoy them. Nice to feast on precursors now and again... ;D

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 007 Symphony in C 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 09:33:41 AM
Quote from: Lethe on April 10, 2010, 09:21:00 AM
... reminicent of Boccherini, maybe, but with their own clunky charm.

... and, apparently, Boccherini was nicknamed as "Haydn's wife" by his contemporaries. Therefore, we are in Haydn again.   :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on April 10, 2010, 11:10:25 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 09:30:13 AM
Yeah, I like Sammartini, I have just the one box of 3 disks of his early string symphonies, but I do quite enjoy them. Nice to feast on precursors now and again... ;D
You might like this, Gurn (if you don't have it already)!  Europa Galante gives Sammartini the star treatment here, even if it is only one nine-minute piece...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518gZWBI7QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Improvisata-Sinfonie-titoli-Antonio-Vivaldi/dp/B000F3T3EG (http://www.amazon.com/Improvisata-Sinfonie-titoli-Antonio-Vivaldi/dp/B000F3T3EG)

This also features some Monza, Vivaldi, Boccherini, and Demachi - great album.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 14, 2010, 09:35:27 AM
Thought that I repeat a post here that I just put in the 'listening thread' - of the two Krommer SQ discs below (both on period instruments), thought that I'd play them back-to-back; preference given below, but I'm not disappointed w/ the Authentic Quartet in the performances I own by them - also, I'd be curious if anyone has heard this group in the Johann Lickl SQs - own nothing by this composer - see the attached review from Fanfare - a recommendation w/ slight reservations concerning the AQ's performances.   :D

Quote
Thought that I'd play my Krommer SQ discs back-to-back, i.e. the one you showed (and the other w/ the Authentic Quartet) - the quartets are different (FK wrote over 70 SQs, according to the liner notes!) - I still really like the Marcolini Quartett the best of these two groups; the Authentic Quartet is not bad, but the performers just don't seem to play w/ enough GUSTO! 

Now I own several other discs w/ this latter quartet, which I've liked better than the Krommer; also there is a review from Fanfare on their performance of the Lickl SQs (never heard of this composer) - the recording is recommended, but the reviewer commented the playing of the AQuartet wasn't the most polished - might still purchase the CD since the compositions were felt to be quite good along w/ the recording quality, plus I own nothing by this apparently well-regarded composer during his time; REVIEW ATTACHED AS A TEXT FILE, for those interested!  Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KrommerSQs/524943864_YzWoR-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KrommerSQsOp7/824302413_RPUob-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: sTisTi on April 15, 2010, 08:11:05 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 14, 2010, 09:35:27 AM
Thought that I repeat a post here that I just put in the 'listening thread' - of the two Krommer SQ discs below (both on period instruments), thought that I'd play them back-to-back; preference given below, but I'm not disappointed w/ the Authentic Quartet in the performances I own by them - also, I'd be curious if anyone has heard this group in the Johann Lickl SQs - own nothing by this composer - see the attached review from Fanfare - a recommendation w/ slight reservations concerning the AQ's performances.   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KrommerSQs/524943864_YzWoR-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KrommerSQsOp7/824302413_RPUob-O.jpg)
SonicMan,
if you're interested in more Krommer String Quartets, I can highly recommend the following CD of 3 Op.18 Quartets played by the Quartetto di Milano:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61vXpnU3c0L._SS500_.jpg)

especially the first quartet is full of the catchy melodies so typical of Krommer.
I also considered buying the Authentic Quartet CD pictured in your post, but somehow I didn't like the Op.7 works nearly as much as the Op.18 quartets or the works played by the Marcolini Qt, so I'm still undecided...

Are there any other CDs of Krommer's SQ available?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 15, 2010, 02:12:33 PM
Quote from: sTisTi on April 15, 2010, 08:11:05 AM
SonicMan,
if you're interested in more Krommer String Quartets, I can highly recommend the following CD of 3 Op.18 Quartets played by the Quartetto di Milano:

I also considered buying the Authentic Quartet CD pictured in your post, but somehow I didn't like the Op.7 works nearly as much as the Op.18 quartets or the works played by the Marcolini Qt, so I'm still undecided...

Are there any other CDs of Krommer's SQ available?

Hello sTisTi - probably so but I just have the two shown in my earlier post; the Quartetto di Milano disc looks interesting, but is available in the USA from just one Amazon Marketplace vendor for nearly $40 (once S/H is added)!  I've not looked to my European sources yet but will put on my list -  :)

I do own a lot of other chamber works by Krommer, esp. w/ winds - recommended for those into windy music, like myself.

Maybe some of our more illustrious sleuths can uncover some more SQs for us -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 16, 2010, 08:18:27 AM
Well, sTisTi and Dave, I'm afraid that you have named the three CDs of string quartets by Krommer currently available. At least I don't know any other, may it be available or out of print.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 20, 2010, 12:38:07 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 06, 2009, 05:31:38 AM
I transpose a message I've just written in another thread, concerning - naturally - a classical composer.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/88/455788.jpg)

It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso. It's the only CD I own of Brunetti's music, and I would like to know more of it before trying to describe the style of the composer. But specifically about these few string quartets I can say that it is some of the most intriguing chamber music of the classical period. Perhaps it is the use of listening to the Viennese composers of the time, but even compared with Boccherini's works these are very special; I would even say that they are very strange. Their emotional approach is a light one, but the music in itself is quite twisted: very strange textures, unexpected modulations, irregular subjects, and lots of other surprises.

If I had to describe these works, I'd say they are like a piranha. Their size is deceiving. And when gathered in groups, they can create a very powerful force. According to Wikipedia, he wrote a considerable amount of chamber music (44 string quartets, 66 string quintets, and so on). If most of his music had at least the level presented by this CD, we would be in front of a very sadly forgotten composer; and considering that Brunetti was active in Spain at the same time Boccherini was, they both could offer a most distinguished counterpoint to the Haydn-Mozart Austrian chamber music writing of this period.

This is such an amazing disk...thanks for the heads up.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2010, 01:10:26 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 20, 2010, 12:38:07 PM
This is such an amazing disk...thanks for the heads up.

Hello, Leo. Hadn't seen you in a while, glad you could stop in. And yet another vote in favor of this music. I guess I am the tardy one who needs to see what's what here. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 20, 2010, 01:43:29 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2010, 01:10:26 PM
Hello, Leo. Hadn't seen you in a while, glad you could stop in. And yet another vote in favor of this music. I guess I am the tardy one who needs to see what's what here. :)

Hello Leo - just looked at the date on Gabriel's post - nearly a year ago!   :)

I've not looked back to see the responses, but I also own that disc by Brunetti, but would have to give it a spin to remind me - BTW, any other recordings of this obscure composer that you've discovered?  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 24, 2010, 07:56:44 AM
Witt, Friedrich (1770-1836) - yet another apparently 'lost composer' from the classical transitional era; same birth year as Beethoven; extremely short Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Witt); an unknown to me until acquiring the disc below from BRO; the usual MDG quality - unexpectedly excellent review (10/10 rating) by David Hurwitz reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=102365)!

Not much more available at Amazon on disc w/ his name as the only composer; the music on this recording is well captured w/ superb sound - the Flute Concerto is worth the price of admission.  Symphony No. 6, Sinfonie Turque is a lot of fun w/ Turkish sounds/moods throughout.  Apparently, Witt wrote 27 Symphonies w/ the last 9 being published as Symphonies 1-9, according to the liner notes; he likely wrote much other instrumental (including chamber works) music, which has been at least 'unrecorded' or lost?   :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/WittSymph69/844566649_fkGeD-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 24, 2010, 09:44:54 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 20, 2010, 01:43:29 PM
Hello Leo - just looked at the date on Gabriel's post - nearly a year ago!   :)

I've not looked back to see the responses, but I also own that disc by Brunetti, but would have to give it a spin to remind me - BTW, any other recordings of this obscure composer that you've discovered?  Dave  :D

In fact, Dave, I've purchased a recording of some of his symphonies in Cappriccio played by Concerto Köln. I haven't listened to it recently, but I can tell you that my impression was similar to the one I had with the quartets.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 24, 2010, 02:09:13 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on April 24, 2010, 09:44:54 AM
In fact, Dave, I've purchased a recording of some of his symphonies in Cappriccio played by Concerto Köln. I haven't listened to it recently, but I can tell you that my impression was similar to the one I had with the quartets.

Hi Gabriel - I own just the single disc; assume the 'symphonies' mentioned is shown below?  Love that group - saw them in person years ago - will add to my 'wish list' - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CDKPAANHL._SL500_AA300_.gif)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on April 26, 2010, 05:32:13 AM
Yes, that's the CD, Dave. I'm playing right now their fantastic CD with symphonies by Eberl.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 26, 2010, 02:12:55 PM
This afternoon, I was listening to a number of discs from the box pictured below and decided to look up several of the composers, including Leopold Kozeluch (1747-1818) - the set of his Symphonies on one of the discs is all that I own by this composer, but was astounded at HOW MUCH he wrote!  :)

Czech composer - short Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kozeluch), which includes a listing of his numerous compositions, currently cataloged using Postolka numbers, after the work of the musicologist Milan Poštolka - these include:  23 Symphonies-Overtures; 23 Keyboard Concertos; 4 Clarinet & Bassoon Concertos; 21 Serenades-Parthias; 6 String Quartets; 67 Keyboard Trios; 24 Keyboard Sonatas w/ Violin; other instrumental pieces not to mention his vocal output!

So, any recommendations - not a whole lot listed on Amazon under his name -  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ConcertoKoln/848413757_9F5gB-O.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Kozeluh349.jpg/474px-Kozeluh349.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2010, 06:14:49 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 24, 2010, 02:09:13 PM
Hi Gabriel - I own just the single disc; assume the 'symphonies' mentioned is shown below?  Love that group - saw them in person years ago - will add to my 'wish list' - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CDKPAANHL._SL500_AA300_.gif)

Dave and Gabriel,
I just got this disk of Brunetti and am making my first trip through it now. it is this one, on Tactus:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Brunettibassooncover.jpg)

As you know (and we've discussed) I am very fond indeed of an ensemble of a solo wind instrument fronting a string trio or quartet, and these bassoon quintets are very interesting indeed. They are chronologically older than those of Devienne or Danzi, not sure how they stand v Krommer. In any case they are delightful, the bassoon seems to be written more tightly into the ensemble than is usual in this type of work, but plenty of virtuosic opportunities exist for a great player to show out. These are world premieres, and as is usual with Tactus, they are worth grabbing if you see them. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 05, 2010, 09:00:29 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2010, 06:14:49 AM
Dave and Gabriel,
I just got this disk of Brunetti and am making my first trip through it now. it is this one, on Tactus:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Brunettibassooncover.jpg)

As you know (and we've discussed) I am very fond indeed of an ensemble of a solo wind instrument fronting a string trio or quartet, and these bassoon quintets are very interesting indeed. They are chronologically older than those of Devienne or Danzi, not sure how they stand v Krommer. In any case they are delightful, the bassoon seems to be written more tightly into the ensemble than is usual in this type of work, but plenty of virtuosic opportunities exist for a great player to show out. These are world premieres, and as is usual with Tactus, they are worth grabbing if you see them. :)

Gurn - thanks for the tip on Brunetti; I did pick up the Sinfonien disc (and have the SQs on CPO) - the bassoon recording sounds quite good!  I'm putting together an order from MDT and will take a look; also decided to add the Beethoven-Hummel Piano Trios CD on PIs; the two Lambert Orkis dual Virgin sets seem OOP?  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 08, 2010, 10:47:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2010, 06:14:49 AM
Dave and Gabriel,
I just got this disk of Brunetti and am making my first trip through it now. it is this one, on Tactus:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Brunettibassooncover.jpg)

As you know (and we've discussed) I am very fond indeed of an ensemble of a solo wind instrument fronting a string trio or quartet, and these bassoon quintets are very interesting indeed. They are chronologically older than those of Devienne or Danzi, not sure how they stand v Krommer. In any case they are delightful, the bassoon seems to be written more tightly into the ensemble than is usual in this type of work, but plenty of virtuosic opportunities exist for a great player to show out. These are world premieres, and as is usual with Tactus, they are worth grabbing if you see them. :)

8)

Thanks, Gurn. I didn't know anything about that CD, and it seems interesting: there are not too many bassoon chamber works from classicism available. As for the date, they are almost certainly older than Krommer's. Brunetti died in 1798, while Krommer's bassoon quartets are under op. 46. In 1798 Krommer was publishing works with numbers around op. 10 (perhaps somebody could check a booklet of Krommer's op. 46 for establishing their composition date with more certainty; I don't have mine here).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2010, 11:14:11 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 08, 2010, 10:47:23 AM
Thanks, Gurn. I didn't know anything about that CD, and it seems interesting: there are not too many bassoon chamber works from classicism available. As for the date, they are almost certainly older than Krommer's. Brunetti died in 1798, while Krommer's bassoon quartets are under op. 46. In 1798 Krommer was publishing works with numbers around op. 10 (perhaps somebody could check a booklet of Krommer's op. 46 for establishing their composition date with more certainty; I don't have mine here).


Yes, think you'll like them, Gabriel. I noted an oddity last night while I was ripping them to put on my MP3 player; the booklet doesn't give any clue what key they are written in. I have seen this before, but very rarely. I looked them up in Grove's and discovered the confusion that is the Brunetti oeuvre. There is chamber music, orchestral music and vocal music, and each of these groups starts off with an Op 1. I did note that Op 2 is listed as "6 string quartets", no mention of bassoons, but given that there are other Op 2's also, I figure that makes no difference, there appears to be no definitive list of works. :-\

I looked up Krommer's Op 46 and it appears to be from 1804, so it does postdate Brunetti neatly. I was at work when I wrote the other so had nothing to look it up in... :-\   :)

8)
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Now playing:
Hanover Band / Monica Huggett - Bia 203 Op 21 Symphony #1 in C 2nd mvmt - Andante cantabile con moto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 08, 2010, 11:21:37 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2010, 11:14:11 AM

Yes, think you'll like them, Gabriel. I noted an oddity last night while I was ripping them to put on my MP3 player; the booklet doesn't give any clue what key they are written in. I have seen this before, but very rarely. I looked them up in Grove's and discovered the confusion that is the Brunetti oeuvre. There is chamber music, orchestral music and vocal music, and each of these groups starts off with an Op 1. I did note that Op 2 is listed as "6 string quartets", no mention of bassoons, but given that there are other Op 2's also, I figure that makes no difference, there appears to be no definitive list of works. :-\

I looked up Krommer's Op 46 and it appears to be from 1804, so it does postdate Brunetti neatly. I was at work when I wrote the other so had nothing to look it up in... :-\   :)

8)
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Now playing:
Hanover Band / Monica Huggett - Bia 203 Op 21 Symphony #1 in C 2nd mvmt - Andante cantabile con moto

Thanks, Gurn. I thought Krommer's quartets might have been composed around 1805, but as composers decide sometimes to keep the scores for some time before publishing them, I prefered not to give a specific answer.

About the confusions in opus numbers, it seems we will need a scholar to put some order in Brunetti's catalogue! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 11:24:15 AM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/88/455788.jpg)

This one, referenced above seems interesting, but I haven't been able to locate any sample audio clips at all, which is frustrating.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on May 08, 2010, 11:29:48 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 11:24:15 AM
This one, referenced above seems interesting, but I haven't been able to locate any sample audio clips at all, which is frustrating.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Gaetano-Brunetti-4-Streichquartette/hnum/3056453
:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 12:31:24 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 08, 2010, 11:29:48 AM
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Gaetano-Brunetti-4-Streichquartette/hnum/3056453
:)

Ooooh, thanks.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 08, 2010, 03:48:44 PM
Druschetsky, Georg (1745-1819) - String Quintets w/ the Festetics SQ + an extra violist added; just left a post in the 'listening thread' which of course will be quickly ignored - but yet another composer new to me from a great time period that I just love!

Now, I'm not sure WHY I even bought this disc except for the group (love the Festetics!) and an excellent review by Jerry Dubins from Fanfare HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=101769); so why not!

After the first listening, this is absolutely a wonderful disc - the compositions are well written (hard to tell them from Haydn) and the performances on period instruments superb and well recorded - a recommendation for those who like string chamber works from the 'classical transitional' period -  :)

Now, I would like to purchase more of this composer - but little is known and recorded - he apparently wrote much chamber music (he was an oboist & percussion player, his main fame) - Dutch Wiki (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%C5%99%C3%AD_Dru%C5%BEeck%C3%BD) seems to have the best listing of his compositions (I needed to do an English translation)!

So, who knows this composer?  And if so, what of the FEW recordings (at least, that I could find?) would be worth consideration - I'm especially interested in this chamber wind music - thanks all - Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DruschetskySQs/860507233_dzXUv-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2010, 05:08:50 PM
Well, Dave, he was new to me, too, and I'll probably get that string music disk. Meanwhile, I found this one on Amazon and ordered it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ABRQTXKML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Being a Harmonie fan, it seemed appropriate. If you spell his name with a "z" instead of an "s" you will do better in a search. :)

8)


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Now playing:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 18 06 Concerto in F for Organ & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 08, 2010, 05:34:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2010, 05:08:50 PM
Well, Dave, he was new to me, too, and I'll probably get that string music disk. Meanwhile, I found this one on Amazon and ordered it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ABRQTXKML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BZFGDPQHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/619hEu4QIdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Being a Harmonie fan, it seemed appropriate. If you spell his name with a "z" instead of an "s" you will do better in a search.

Gurn - that disc looks GOOD!  But also found a couple of others added above that are also of interest - not sure others have heard these?  However - seem attractive!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2010, 05:40:20 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 08, 2010, 05:34:10 PM
Gurn - that disc looks GOOD!  But also found a couple of others added above that are also of interest - not sure others have heard these?  However - seem attractive!  Dave  :D

Indeed, especially that oboe 4tet disk, although the one on Accent holds promise due to the players (Amphion Wind Octet) who I have heard otherwise. Funny how you go on past some names without seeing them, and then when you are looking, there turns out to be some nice things there. And I have grown increasingly fond of the Bohemians of late... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 06 Concerto in F for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 08, 2010, 05:59:30 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2010, 05:40:20 PM
Indeed, especially that oboe 4tet disk, although the one on Accent holds promise due to the players (Amphion Wind Octet) who I have heard otherwise. Funny how you go on past some names without seeing them, and then when you are looking, there turns out to be some nice things there. And I have grown increasingly fond of the Bohemians of late...

Gurn - yes, these eastern European composers ( regardless of their country of origin during that period - hard to keep tract of the geography of the times!) just wrote wonderful 'wind music' (we know many composers already of the times!) - these guys seem to have had a special knack for 'wind composing' - maybe in their diets?   ;) ;D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2010, 06:08:09 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 08, 2010, 05:59:30 PM
Gurn - yes, these eastern European composers ( regardless of their country of origin during that period - hard to keep tract of the geography of the times!) just wrote wonderful 'wind music' (we know many composers already of the times!) - these guys seem to have had a special knack for 'wind composing' - maybe in their diets?   ;) ;D  Dave

I don't know, it's true that MY diet gives me a certain knack with wind.... :D 

But yes, the Bohemians (or Czechs as I think they are (is THAT even right any more?) )  were especially excellent at it. It is no wonder that Mozart was so near and dear to them, their mutual love of wind music was a strong bond. BTW, according to Groves, Drus wrote a whole bunch of music for 3 Bassett Horns (sounds more Mozartian, eh?) and also was famous in his time for concerts on percussion. There is a disk out there of his music for Timpani & Orchestra which puts me in mind of being Timpani Concerti!  How about that?  :)

8)


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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 001 Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on May 09, 2010, 06:09:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2010, 06:08:09 PM
But yes, the Bohemians (or Czechs as I think they are (is THAT even right any more?) )  were especially excellent at it.

"Bohemian" is not a synonym of "Czech". If my memory does not fail here, Czechs can be Bohemian, Moravian or Silesian depending on their origin. Prague is in Bohemia, but Brno is in Moravia. Ostrava is in part in Moravia and part in Silesia.

Anyway, the number of excellent Czech composers working at that time in all Europe is really impressive. (If I am not mistaken, while Franz Schubert is obviously associated with Vienna, Schubert is a Czech family name).

Back to Czech wind music of classicism, another relevant composer was Václav Vincenc Masek. I've got some compositions of his, including a concerto for three harpsichords and wind octet (it's a curious formation). Typical style galant, transparent and enjoyable.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 09, 2010, 06:51:43 AM
Lickl, Georg (1769-1843) - String Quartets - ANOTHER one of these Classical-Romantic composers that is completely new to me; I just left a lengthy post in the 'listening thread', part of which on Lickl is quoted below; born in Austria, he spent about 20 yrs of his early life in Vienna leaving in 1807 for a choirmaster post in Hungary; studied w/ two of the best teachers in Vienna and wrote these works in the 1790s - my comments and those from Fanfare and Don (Bulldog) below, the latter two linked!  :D

This is my 3rd disc of the Authentic Quartet who are definitely a notch below some of my favorite HIP SQs, such as the Festetics & Q.M. - probably a combination of the music that they are recording, i.e. not Haydn or Mozart but the second or lower tiers - NOW, I do own a lot of that music which can sound just fine in the 'right' hands, so the other part of the equation is the playing of this group - quite an easy listen, pleasant, but just no 'fireworks' I guess!

Now I was looking on Amazon for other recordings of Lickl, and the 'Wind Music' disc on MDG looks quite interesting - just wondering if anyone has heard these performances?  Thanks - Dave  :)


QuoteLickl, Georg (1769-1843) - String Quartets w/ the Authentic Quartet - Lickl was Austrain and spent about 20 years of his early time in Vienna, studied w/ Albrectsberger & Haydn - these works were composed in the 1790s and are well written; the sound is also recorded well, but this Quartet just does not seem to have the 'spit, polish, and vim'!  I have a handful of their recordings now and am always left wanting other period instrument groups taking a round, such as the Festetics (who did a great job on a CD that I showed yesterday, i.e. Druschetsky SQs!) - now, this group has received some 'mixed' reviews both in this forum and elsewhere - Fanfare Review HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=92171) & Don's Thoughts HERE (http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/h/hgr32220a.php) - bottom line for me; good string writing, well produced, somewhat indifferent and occasionally 'erratic' performances?

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/LicklSQsAuthentic/860507256_EUoJp-O.jpg)  (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jzNAjeph4lM/SrIKU5C2tWI/AAAAAAAAAJU/MQRzlMZaWmQ/s400/front.JPG)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 07:14:31 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jzNAjeph4lM/SrIKU5C2tWI/AAAAAAAAAJU/MQRzlMZaWmQ/s400/front.JPG)

Nice painting on the cover. Any info about it?  :)

P.S.: the woman has a very strange left-hand.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2010, 07:46:52 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 09, 2010, 06:09:53 AM
"Bohemian" is not a synonym of "Czech". If my memory does not fail here, Czechs can be Bohemian, Moravian or Silesian depending on their origin. Prague is in Bohemia, but Brno is in Moravia. Ostrava is in part in Moravia and part in Silesia.

Anyway, the number of excellent Czech composers working at that time in all Europe is really impressive. (If I am not mistaken, while Franz Schubert is obviously associated with Vienna, Schubert is a Czech family name).

Back to Czech wind music of classicism, another relevant composer was Václav Vincenc Masek. I've got some compositions of his, including a concerto for three harpsichords and wind octet (it's a curious formation). Typical style galant, transparent and enjoyable.

Yes, I didn't mean that Czechs were Bohemians (necessarily) but rather the opposite, that Bohemians were now Czechs. Since I didn't know that for many years, I thought maybe some others didn't either. I actually didn't learn it until I got interested in the music. :)

Of particular interest to me are the various Benda's, Wanhal, Pichl, folks of that persuasion. Even though they nearly all ended up in Vienna and became part of "Viennese Classicism", very many of the ones that I seem to enjoy the most turn out to be Czechs in origin. Masek is yet another new one to Czech out... thanks! :)

8)

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Now playing:
Chicago Symphony Orchestra / Solti - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2010, 07:52:51 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 09, 2010, 06:51:43 AM
Lickl, Georg (1769-1843) - String Quartets - ANOTHER one of these Classical-Romantic composers that is completely new to me; I just left a lengthy post in the 'listening thread', part of which on Lickl is quoted below; born in Austria, he spent about 20 yrs of his early life in Vienna leaving in 1807 for a choirmaster post in Hungary; studied w/ two of the best teachers in Vienna and wrote these works in the 1790s - my comments and those from Fanfare and Don (Bulldog) below, the latter two linked!  :D

This is my 3rd disc of the Authentic Quartet who are definitely a notch below some of my favorite HIP SQs, such as the Festetics & Q.M. - probably a combination of the music that they are recording, i.e. not Haydn or Mozart but the second or lower tiers - NOW, I do own a lot of that music which can sound just fine in the 'right' hands, so the other part of the equation is the playing of this group - quite an easy listen, pleasant, but just no 'fireworks' I guess!

Now I was looking on Amazon for other recordings of Lickl, and the 'Wind Music' disc on MDG looks quite interesting - just wondering if anyone has heard these performances?  Thanks - Dave  :)

I have exactly one work by Lickl, a "Quintet concertante in F major for Winds" which came as filler, more or less, on a disk of Haydn wind divertimentos. It is nice, solid writing, fits in with what I think of as typical for the period. You actually told me far more about him than I knew coming in, so thanks for that. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Chicago Symphony Orchestra / Solti - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 07:58:08 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 07:14:31 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jzNAjeph4lM/SrIKU5C2tWI/AAAAAAAAAJU/MQRzlMZaWmQ/s400/front.JPG)
Nice painting on the cover. Any info about it?  :)

Ooops... I didn't see the last line of the message:

Quote from: SonicMan on May 09, 2010, 06:51:43 AM
Now I was looking on Amazon for other recordings of Lickl, and the 'Wind Music' disc on MDG looks quite interesting - just wondering if anyone has heard these performances?

:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 09, 2010, 08:03:37 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 07:14:31 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jzNAjeph4lM/SrIKU5C2tWI/AAAAAAAAAJU/MQRzlMZaWmQ/s400/front.JPG)

Nice painting on the cover. Any info about it?  :)

P.S.: the woman has a very strange left-hand.

Antoine - I don't own that wind disc - just thinking about a purchase (if not OPP!) - so, know nothing about the painting, but I was thinking late 18th-early 19th century, so I googled some English & American portrait artists of those times (i.e. Gainsborough, Ramsay, Peeles, & Gilbert Stuart) - NO luck!  Certainly plenty of others to think about, plus MDG often uses more obscure paintings from my experience w/ their liner notes!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 08:39:54 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 09, 2010, 08:03:37 AM
Antoine - I don't own that wind disc - just thinking about a purchase (if not OPP!) - so, know nothing about the painting, but I was thinking late 18th-early 19th century, so I googled some English & American portrait artists of those times (i.e. Gainsborough, Ramsay, Peeles, & Gilbert Stuart) - NO luck!  Certainly plenty of others to think about, plus MDG often uses more obscure paintings from my experience w/ their liner notes!  Dave  :D

I found it!  :)

George Romney [English Painter, 1734-1802], Mrs. Russell and Child (1786)

A lot of wonderful paintings:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6M2E6dGLXfw/S6nHmNXrQ9I/AAAAAAAAUPc/KlbAuCEX9F4/s640/Emma+as+Circe+by+George+Romney,+1782.jpg)

Emma, Lady Hamilton, immortal beloved of Lord Nelson




Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 09, 2010, 01:28:35 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 08:39:54 AM
I found it!  :)

George Romney [English Painter, 1734-1802], Mrs. Russell and Child (1786)

A lot of wonderful paintings:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6M2E6dGLXfw/S6nHmNXrQ9I/AAAAAAAAUPc/KlbAuCEX9F4/s640/Emma+as+Circe+by+George+Romney,+1782.jpg)  (http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/996/996720/that-hamilton-woman-the-criterion-collection-20090622103114546-000.jpg)

Emma, Lady Hamilton, immortal beloved of Lord Nelson

Antoine - yes, Romney another great portrait painter from that era - I've seen a LOT of his work over the years and he did wonderful faces of children!  Emma was a beauty - purchased the new Criterion production of That Hamilton Woman w/ Leigh & Olivier last year on release - another later beauty!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on May 09, 2010, 05:54:08 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2010, 07:46:52 AM
Yes, I didn't mean that Czechs were Bohemians (necessarily) but rather the opposite, that Bohemians were now Czechs. Since I didn't know that for many years, I thought maybe some others didn't either. I actually didn't learn it until I got interested in the music. :)


You're better than Shakespeare.  He apparently thought that Bohemia had a seacoast (Winter's Tale).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on May 09, 2010, 06:26:21 PM
Purchased and gave this a first run through last night
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Jiyn5x4RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The liner notes try to slide by the question, but Florez (to my ears) sings this as a natural tenor with the appropriate transpositions (or else he has an unusually high top register), not as a haut-contre, but it is the original Paris version, un Berliozed.   Vocal ornamentation seems used appropriately.

Garmendia and Marianelli are excellent, but it's Florez who gets the ovations.  (It's a live recording--there's applause after the end of each act, and after Florez' second act aria, but the applause at the end of acts two and three is noticeably less robust than that at the end of the first act, when Orphee's aria provides the finale, and the aforementioned second act aria.)   But the opera does, after all, live and die by whomever sings Orpheus--the character is onstage, and usually singing, for the entire opera; poor Eurydice doesn't even appear until the very end of Act Two and doesn't sing a note until Act Three.

My favorite part of the opera is the opening of Act II,  with the contrast between Orpheus's singing and the dances/choruses of the demons and Furies, the demonic theme which acts as a rondo throughout, and Gluck's use of real dissonances (and if they sound dissonant even today, I have to wonder what they sounded like to 18th century audiences) to paint a musical picture of demonry.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on June 23, 2010, 11:48:39 AM
People interested in Johann Nepomuk Hummel's music will be eager to know that Brilliant has released a recording of one of his operas, Mathilde von Guise. I have listened to some numbers of it. The music is very good so far, showing German roots as well as some Italian influence.

It has been the first time I've heard Solamente naturali playing; this orchestra sounds, if not exceptional, firm and competent. The overture, as far as my simple audio system allows me to judge, has been intelligently played (I'd love to listen to it in my official audio system).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2010, 12:18:17 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on June 23, 2010, 11:48:39 AM
People interested in Johann Nepomuk Hummel's music will be eager to know that Brilliant has released a recording of one of his operas, Mathilde von Guise. I have listened to some numbers of it. The music is very good so far, showing German roots as well as some Italian influence.

It has been the first time I've heard Solamente naturali playing; this orchestra sounds, if not exceptional, firm and competent. The overture, as far as my simple audio system allows me to judge, has been intelligently played (I'd love to listen to it in my official audio system).

Very interesting, Gabriel. I've never heard any vocal music by Hummel, except for a mass several years ago. In fact, I am so ignorant that I didn't even know he wrote an opera score! :o  I will see if it comes out over here, sounds like something I need to hear.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2010, 12:25:25 PM
And speaking of new music, I got this today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Albrechtsberger_duets_1.jpg)

I have only had one quick listening so far. The Haydn piece on here is not Haydn, my memory lost its grip on who actually composed it, but I will look it up tonight. It's still an interesting little piece. The Albrechtsberger duos are not the heavy, fugal compositions that you might expect, but instead are nice, light entertaining works, nicely composed. They date from around 1797. Anyway, I'm glad I ran across this, I suspect it will hold up to several more listenings. :)

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on June 23, 2010, 12:44:58 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2010, 12:25:25 PM
The Albrechtsberger duos are not the heavy, fugal compositions that you might expect....

When you find the time, I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with some examples of his music which are heavy and fugal.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2010, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 23, 2010, 12:44:58 PM
When you find the time, I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with some examples of his music which are heavy and fugal.

Well, I don't have other recordings, so I came with expectations from reading about him. Here is an excerpt from Grove's, for example;

After his imperial appointment in 1772 he became increasingly preoccupied with the composition of fugues – over 240 for instruments in addition to numerous examples in the sacred music. His two-movement sonate (slow homophonic, fast fugal), of which he wrote over 120 for various instrumental combinations after 1780, developed out of the Baroque church sonata but were intended for chamber rather than church performance. They had little influence on the already mature sonata form. His approach to Viennese church composition tended, as Weissenbäck noted, towards formal sectionalization or polarization of homophonic and polyphonic textures. In spite of their technical refinements, these late works seem less imaginative than those of his earlier years

And his real claim to fame was in theory and teaching, his specialty being polyphony and counterpoint. More from Grove's:

Nevertheless it was through his teachings and theoretical writings that Albrechtsberger exerted the strongest influence on his contemporaries and succeeding generations of composers. He began attracting students as early as 1757 (Franz Schneider), and by the time of his death he was the most sought-after pedagogue in Europe. Haydn regarded him as 'the best teacher of composition among all present-day Viennese masters' and unhesitatingly sent Beethoven to him for instruction (1794–5). The fugues of Beethoven's last years, particularly op.133, owe much to his teachings. His international reputation as a theorist rested on his extremely popular treatises on composition (1790) and figured bass (c1791). In place of innovatory theoretical concepts these works contained a skilful combination of elements borrowed primarily from Fux and Marpurg. His principal achievement in this area was to formulate 18th-century theory in a language and format which were practical and suitable to the needs of contemporary instruction.

So, yes, I had certain expectations. :)  I'm not sure, however, what of all these musics have been recorded. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on June 23, 2010, 09:52:26 PM
Thanks a lot for the extracts, Gurn. :) It's too bad that not much of his output has been put on record.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2010, 04:29:35 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 23, 2010, 09:52:26 PM
Thanks a lot for the extracts, Gurn. :) It's too bad that not much of his output has been put on record.

I agree, I would like to hear more. I know there is a disk of string quartets, but I haven't been able to run across it yet. Other than that, I think it is just bits and pieces on compilations. I have a couple of those though and like what I've heard. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on June 24, 2010, 05:52:59 AM
Searching for his music, I came across this rather interesting compilation yesterday -- a new release, in fact, from ZigZag (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Zigzag/ZZT091003).


Quatuor Rincontro

A fascinating CD coupling inspired arrangements by Mozart of fugues by J. S. Bach with Haydn quartets that feature a fugal movement and music by their contemporaries Werner and Albrechtsberger, highly esteemed by Emperor Joseph II, who even opened a special department for fugal forms in the imperial library in Vienna.


If I remember correctly, I read somewhere (must be that Naxos book) that A. wrote a lot for the organ at a time when it was not in vogue, and even joined as a church organist somewhere on the recommendation of Mozart. He must have had a special place in his heart for the music of the past.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2010, 06:16:49 AM

Here's another bit from Grove's on that;

Eye-witness accounts by critics such as Maximilian Stadler, Burney, Nicolai and Pasterwitz leave little doubt that Albrechtsberger was an extraordinarily talented organist. Mozart, the most reliable judge of all, considered his playing the standard by which other organists were to be measured (letter to Constanze, 16 April 1789). Towards the end of his life he was recognized as 'perhaps the greatest organist in the world'.

Hard to list all the works out of there (they all use cryptic abbreviations), but there are plenty of organ works. He is credited, through his teaching influence and books, with creating the atmosphere in Vienna that facilitated the revival of polyphony (and thus Baroque music) in the early 19th century. That is a big accomplishment. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 24, 2010, 01:54:07 PM
Hey, Classical and Romantic fellows, Schoenberg is giving a beating to Mendelssohn in another thread. We must do something! (http://trashare.com/foro/images/smilies/asas.gif)  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 04, 2010, 02:42:16 PM
Well received a small box from BRO yesterday, and one of my selections was a classical composer who is completely 'new' to me and likely has no other recordings (can't even find a WIKI article!) -  :D

Pratsch, Johann Gottfried (ca. 1750-1818) (a.k.a. Ivan Pratsch) - Chamber Music from St. Petersburg w/ Lubimov on fortepiano; works for piano, piano + cello, and a Mozart transcription (K. 493) arranged for two fortepianos.

Pratsch was Czech (born in Silesia) but went to St. Petersburg in his mid-20s; he was associated w/ teaching music to aristocratic family members (assume quite popular at the time!), other teaching responsibilities, and in the maintenance and repair of pianos (which would be fortepianos then), harpsichords, and clavichords.  He first came to 'fame' for the publication of a collection of Russian Folk Songs about 1790, where the first name 'Ivan' was used.  Pratsch apparently composed a considerable amount of music, but how much? Plus, the liner notes leave little information as to his own instrumental prowess? Yet another 'lost soul' from the classical era - how many of these Europeans (including John Field) ended up to the courts of Russia?  Is there a book, and if not, a topic of potential interest?  Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/PratschStPetersburg/922684779_3PRdr-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2010, 02:52:03 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on July 04, 2010, 02:42:16 PM
Well received a small box from BRO yesterday, and one of my selections was a classical composer who is completely 'new' to me and likely has no other recordings (can't even find a WIKI article!) -  :D

Pratsch, Johann Gottfried (ca. 1750-1818) (a.k.a. Ivan Pratsch) - Chamber Music from St. Petersburg w/ Lubimov on fortepiano; works for piano, piano + cello, and a Mozart transcription (K. 493) arranged for two fortepianos.

Pratsch was Czech (born in Silesia) but went to St. Petersburg in his mid-20s; he was associated w/ teaching music to aristocratic family members (assume quite popular at the time!), other teaching responsibilities, and in the maintenance and repair of pianos (which would be fortepianos then), harpsichords, and clavichords.  He first came to 'fame' for the publication of a collection of Russian Folk Songs about 1790, where the first name 'Ivan' was used.  Pratsch apparently composed a considerable amount of music, but how much? Plus, the liner notes leave little information as to his own instrumental prowess? Yet another 'lost soul' from the classical era - how many of these Europeans (including John Field) ended up to the courts of Russia?  Is there a book, and if not, a topic of potential interest?  Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/PratschStPetersburg/922684779_3PRdr-O.jpg)

Wow, Dave, he IS obscure! Nice catch. Here is his article in Grove's:

QuotePratsch, Johann Gottfried [Prach, Ivan; Práč, Jan Bohumir]
(b Silesia, c1750; d ?St Petersburg, c1818). Czech composer, teacher and folksong collector. Much of his life was spent in Russia. From 1780 until 1795 he taught music at the Smolnïy Institute, and in 1784 he was appointed harpsichord teacher at the St Petersburg Theatre School. His keyboard compositions include a sonata in C (1787), six variations on an allemande by Martín y Soler (1794), Fandango (1795), 12 variations (1802), a sonata based on Russian themes (1806), eight variations on the folktune Tï podi, moya korovushka, domoy ('Be off home with you, my little cow!', 1815) and an unpublished rondo. He also made a keyboard arrangement of the music from Martín y Soler's opera Gorebogatïr Kosometovich ('The Sorrowful Hero Kosometovich') and Pashkevich's Fevey (both 1789). His most important work, however, was the Sobraniye narodnïkh russkikh pesen s ikh golosami ('Collection of Russian folksongs with vocal parts'), one of the earliest collections of Russian folktunes, which he made in collaboration with N.A. L'vov. In its first edition (St Petersburg, 1790) this comprised 100 songs; larger revised editions were published in 1806 (repr. as A Collection of Russian Folk Songs by Nikolai Lvov and Ivan Prach, 1987) and 1815.

I'm going to zip over there right now and see if there is still a copy waiting for me. A man who can write variations on 'Be off home with you, my little cow!' is someone I need to look into! :)  Thanks for the tip.

8)


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Now playing:
Ensemble Claviere - G 414 Quintet in Bb for Clavier & Strings Op 57 #2 1st mvmt - Allegretto moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2010, 03:31:01 PM
Speaking of St. Petersburg, Catherine must have had some kind of musical establishment. It seems as though half the musicians in Europe spent some time there. Another one who stayed for the duration of his life was Anton Ferdinand Titz. Once again the adventurous Sonic Guy turned me on to this composer, and I ended up with 2 of his disks, not knowing if there are any others available. That would be these:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Titz2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Titz1cover.jpg)

They are worth seeking out, nice music.

In any case, here is some info on Titz, also from Grove's:
QuoteTitz [Tietz, Dietz, Dietzsch], Anton [August] Ferdinand (b Nuremberg, c1742; d St Petersburg, 25 Dec 1810/6 Jan 1811).
German violinist and composer, active in Russia. He was orphaned at an early age and was taught painting in Nuremberg by Johann C. and Barbara R. Dietzsch, his uncle and aunt. By the age of 16 he was a violinist at St Sebaldus's church there. After an unhappy love affair a few years later he went to Vienna, where he played in the opera orchestra and may have studied with Haydn. In 1771 he became a member of the Hofkapelle in St Petersburg; Catherine the Great paid him the highest salary of any of her court musicians. He also taught at the theatre school, gave the future Tsar Aleksandr I violin lessons, directed a court chamber orchestra (which included the clarinettist Joseph Beer and other outstanding musicians), and performed publicly, for instance in 1782, but most of his performances were at court, as a violinist and viola d'amore player. Later in life he suffered a mental disorder that sometimes prevented him from working, but he was encouraged and protected by Senator A.G. Teplov, a St Petersburg amateur musician. He dedicated three string quartets to Teplov and three more to Aleksandr I.
Titz was particularly admired for his sensitive playing of adagio passages, but by the time Spohr met him in St Petersburg in 1803 his technical assurance had gone. His compositions are mainly chamber works in the Viennese Classical style; his string quartets strive for a large dramatic compass and the three upper parts have considerable independence. He also wrote some small vocal works (now lost), including Le pigeon bleu et noir gémit, a romance that was popular in Russian salons until the mid-19th century. He has often been confused with the Dresden violinist Ludwig Tietz.
WORKS
Str qts: 6 quatuors, op.1 (Vienna, c1781–9, Paris, n.d.); 3 quatuors (Bonn, c1802, Leipzig, n.d.); 6, A-Wn; 3 pubd in St Petersburg, cited in Mooser
Other inst: 3 duos ... avec romance & rondeaux, 2 vn (Vienna, c1785); Sonate, hpd/pf, vn obbl, op.1 (St Petersburg, 1795); Sonate, op.2 (St Petersburg, c1799); Sonate, op.3 (St Petersburg, c1799); 3 sonatas, vn, b (Vienna, c1802); Sonate, vn, b (Moscow, n.d.); Sonate, vn, b (Leipzig, n.d.); 10 str qnts, A-Wgm, Wn; Sym., Pavloskiy dvorets-muzey; Vn Conc., 2 sonatas for vn, b, all Wgm; Sonata, vn, b, pubd in St Petersburg, cited in Mooser



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Now playing:
Ensemble Claviere - G 414 Quintet in Bb for Clavier & Strings Op 57 #2 2nd mvmt - Minuetto: Tempo giusto - Trio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 04, 2010, 03:58:46 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2010, 02:52:03 PM
Wow, Dave, he IS obscure! Nice catch. Here is his article in Grove's:

I'm going to zip over there right now and see if there is still a copy waiting for me. A man who can write variations on 'Be off home with you, my little cow!' is someone I need to look into! :)  Thanks for the tip.

Good evening Gurn - thanks for the added information on Pratsch - the liner notes are not that informative regarding his biography or his output!

Concerning your follow-up post on Titz, he has been my 'wish list' for ages but just have not bought a CD yet - will explore; and YES that Russian court at Catherine's time must have been a fun place (and for a variety of reasons) - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on July 04, 2010, 09:57:02 PM
It is with the last movement that the quartet [Op. 59 No. 1] earns the sobriquet "Russian". In this movement Beethoven quotes an actual Theme Russe though modified somewhat, said to be found in a collection of Russian folk music published by Ivan Pratsch.

Interesting, no?

Source (http://www.fuguemasters.com/beethove.html#Quartet_op_59_no_1)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2010, 03:12:19 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 04, 2010, 09:57:02 PM
It is with the last movement that the quartet [Op. 59 No. 1] earns the sobriquet "Russian". In this movement Beethoven quotes an actual Theme Russe though modified somewhat, said to be found in a collection of Russian folk music published by Ivan Pratsch.

Interesting, no?

Source (http://www.fuguemasters.com/beethove.html#Quartet_op_59_no_1)

Interesting yes! I had forgotten altogether that the source of that folksong was named at one time, since it is usually given without attribution. Very interesting, thanks, Navneeth! :)

8)

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Now playing:
Ensemble Claviere - G 417 Quintet in E for Clavier & Strings Op 57 #5 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2010, 09:57:39 AM
Over the course of the last couple of years, member SonicMan has been periodically bringing up a composer named Antonio Casimir Cartellieri. Despite the fact that Dave has consummate good taste, I was tied up enough with other composers at the time that I have it a miss. My loss. :-\  Anyway, I ran across an opportunity to acquire nearly the entire recorded oeuvre at one stroke with this 5 disk set on MD&G, which is mainly the work of Dieter Klöcker. Which should also inform you that Cartellieri is primarily one of those clarinet guys, you know the ones I mean from that time, like Carl Stamitz, Krommer, Crusell; guys that certainly wrote other stuff too, but to whom you can always turn if you are in the mood for some reliably great clarinet works. And A. Casimir is easily as good as any of them.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Cartelliericover.jpg)

Here is his entry on the New Grove:
Cartellieri, Antonio Casimir
(b Danzig, 27 Sept 1772; d Liebshausen, Bohemia, 2 Sept 1807). Bohemian composer. He received a musical education at an early age from his parents: his father, an Italian tenor, Antonio Maria Gaetano, and his mother, from Riga, the singer Elisabeth Böhm, as she was known professionally at the Königliches Opernhaus in Berlin after her second marriage. His parents' unhappy marriage and subsequent divorce led to Antonio's leaving home at the age of 13. After several difficult years, he emerged in 1791 as music director and court composer to Count Oborsky. In 1792 he accompanied his employer to Berlin, where he achieved his first success as a dramatic composer. During his subsequent sojourn with the Count in Vienna, he studied counterpoint with Albrechtsberger, Seyfried and possibly Beethoven, and operatic composition with Salieri. Cartellieri's first public appearance with Beethoven was in 1795 in a concert which saw both the première of his own oratorio Gioas re di Giuda and Beethoven's first public performance as a pianist in Vienna. Prince Lobkowitz, who had noticed Cartellieri at Oborsky's concerts, engaged him in 1796 as Kapellmeister, singing teacher and violinist. In addition to directing operas at the princely court, Cartellieri had to play in instrumental concerts, which sometimes included premières of works by Beethoven under the direction of the composer, for example, the Eroica Symphony and the Triple Concerto on 23 January 1805. In 1800 he married Franziska Kraft, whose father Anton gave Haydn's well-known cello concerto its première. Unlike his parents, Cartellieri had a happy marriage which produced three sons, including Joseph who succeeded to his father's post with Lobkowitz. Cartellieri died of a heart attack at the age of 35. His premature death prevented his music from becoming more widely known. Partly influenced by his great Viennese contemporaries and partly anticipating later features of Romanticism, Cartellieri's style is nonetheless unlike any other. In terms of compass and originality his works merit revival. The popular canon 'Oh come lieto in seno' from his opera Il segreto was formerly misattributed to Mozart.
WORKS
(selective list)
sacred
Masses: B , 4vv, orch, I-Fc; C, 1806, A-Ee; C, SATB, orch, KR; C, 4vv, orch, I-Fc; c, 2 choruses, orch, Raudnitz, 1806, A-Wgm*, CZ-Pnm, I-Fc; D, 4vv, orch, CZ-Pnm, I-Fc; d, CZ-BER; d, CZ-Pnm; E , 4vv, orch, A-Wn, CZ-Pnm, I-Fc; E, 4vv, orch, Fc; g, CZ-Pnm
Orats: Gioas re di Giuda (azione sacra, 2, P. Metastasio), Vienna, 1794, A-Wgm, CZ-Pnm, I-Fc; La purificazione di Maria Vergine (L. Prividali), Prague, 1807, A-Wn, CZ-Pnm, I-Fc; Per celebrare la festività del S.S. Natale (Prividali), A-Wn, CZ-Pnm, I-Fc
Numerous motets, offs, grads and other sacred works
secular
Ops: Die Geisterbeschwörung (Spl, 2), Berlin, 1793, CZ-Pnm, D-Bsb, I-Fc; Angarda Regina di Boemia (op eroicomica, 2), Vienna, 1800, CZ-Pnm, I-Fc; Der Rübezahl (komische Oper, 3), 1801, CZ-Pnm, I-Fc; Il segreto (farsa per musica, 1, Hoffmann and Prividali), 1804, CZ-Pnm; Atalinda (op eroicomica, 2), Pnm, I-Fc; Il duello fortunato (farsa per musica, 1), CZ-Pnm, I-Fc; Il giudice nella propria causa (commedia per musica, 2), Fc
Cants.: Kontimar und Zora (poemetto musicale, 1), Berlin, 1792, I-Fc; Die Siegesfeier, Vienna, 1797, Fc
Numerous arias, duets, trios and qts
instrumental
3 syms.: c, before 1796 (Darmstadt, n.d.); E , before 1796, Fc (Darmstadt, n.d.); C, Fc
5 concs.: cl, B , Cz-Pk, Pnm (inc.); cl, E , Pk, I-Fc; 2 cl, B , Cz-Pk; cl, inc., Pk; fl, G, D-BFb, DK-Kk (Darmstadt, 1797)
3 wind divertimentos, all in F, A-Wn, Wgm, CZ-Bm
Türkische Musik, Pk; Notturno, Pk
Andantino con variazioni, pf, D-MÜs (Leipzig, n.d.)
Numerous other orch and chbr works
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Biography and list of works by Antonio Cartellieri by his son Joseph (MS, A-Wgm); partially pubd in disc notes, Antonio Casimir Cartellieri: Concertos for Clarinet and Orchestra, MDG 301 0527-2 (1996)
V. Schwarz: 'Fürst Franz Joseph Maximilian Lobkowitz und die Musikpflege auf Raudnitz und Eisenberg', Haydn Yearbook 1978, 121–31
D. Klöcker: 'Anton Casimir Cartellieri (1772–1807) und seine drei Wiener Bläserdivertimenti', Oboe, Klarinette, Fagott, vii/2 (1992), 111–16
DIETER KLÖCKER


So, if the opportunity comes along for you to snap up one of his disks for a tryout, by all means do it. Being a chamber guy, I am particularly taken by his clarinet quartets (of which there are 5 recorded). But if you prefer a good concerto, don't overlook these!  :)

8)

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Now playing:
Spada (Keyboard) \ Biocotino (Flute) \ Bergamelli (Cello) - Clementi Op 32 #1 Sonata in F for Keyboard, Flute & Cello 1st mvmt - Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2010, 06:56:01 PM
Another composer who has been mentioned here a few times but had previously been nearly unexplored by me is Bernard Romberg. Not a clarinetist finally, but in fact a very well-known and highly regarded cellist instead. :)

I have only 2 recordings with his works, and only one of them is pure Romberg:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Rombergsymphonycover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CelloKingPrussiacover.jpg)

The "King of Prussia" disk I have had for a while. It has works for cello & fortepiano by Beethoven, Duport and Romberg. Of course, they all had the King of Prussia (Friedrich Wilhelm II) in common, and Beethoven dedicated his 2 Op 5 cello sonatas to the King. Romberg and Duport were the 2 cellists in his orchestra. In any case, there is a sonata for cello & pianoforte on this disk by Romberg and it is really quite nice, the entire disk is worth a listen if you can get hold of it.

The other disk I just got today. It has 3 symphonies by Romberg, and I have to say, he surprised me. They are very good indeed, rather more in the mold of the early Romantic than the Classical. This will bear up to more listening for sure!

So, here is a bit more info on the lad, courtesy of Grove's.

Bernhard Heinrich Romberg
(b Dinklage, Oldenburg, 13 Nov 1767; d Hamburg, 13 Aug 1841). Cellist and composer, cousin of (1) Andreas Jakob Romberg. He learnt the cello from his father, Bernhard Anton Romberg, and until about 1799 followed a career largely identical to that of his cousin, touring in Holland and Germany and in 1785 giving six performances at the Concert Spirituel in Paris. He then played with his cousin in the electoral orchestra in Bonn, 1790–92, and from 1793 at Schröder's Ackermannsches Komödienhaus in Hamburg. While visiting Vienna with Andreas in 1796, Bernhard gave the first performance in that city of Beethoven's two op.5 cello sonatas with the composer. The two cousins returned to Schröder's theatre in 1797, but left two years later following a contractual dispute.

Romberg then toured London, Portugal and Spain, visiting Boccherini in Madrid. In 1799 he arrived in Paris, where he was active as a cellist and composer and from 1801 to 1803 taught at the Conservatoire. In 1805 he joined the royal court orchestra in Berlin as Jean-Louis Duport's desk partner, but left after the French invasion of 1806. In constant demand as a soloist, he toured continually between 1806 and 1815, visiting Russia and London among other destinations. Romberg returned to Berlin in 1815 as second Kapellmeister, where his duties included the production of E.T.A. Hoffmann's Undine; he resigned after Spontini's appointment as Generalmusikdirektor (1819), and resumed his concert tours and entered a piano manufacturing business. He ceased touring in 1836, and in 1839 completed his Méthode de violoncelle. Among his pupils were J.J.F. Dotzauer, J.G. Arnold and Count Mateusz Wielhorski; his influence and personal interest extended to many other cellists and composers.

Romberg, who played a 1711 Stradivari, made several significant innovations to cello construction and technique: he introduced 'modern' instrument fittings and Tourte le jeune's bows to Germany and eastern Europe. He adopted a leveraged bow held at the frog, and his 'broad' style of playing initiated modern or Romantic concepts of tone production. Generating widened vibrations from the C string, he consequently altered the curvature of the fingerboard, a modification that Spohr adopted for the violin. He also codified cello notation to modern usage.

Called 'the hero of all violoncellists, the king of all virtuosos' by the Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung, Romberg was a charismatic performer, and always played solos from memory. His own cello compositions combined techniques pioneered by earlier Mannheim cellists with those from the French violin school of Viotti. His thumb position fingerings fully exploited the stationary 'block' hand positions familiar to Anton Fils and J.B. Tricklir. By using all four fingers across all four strings, Romberg brought speed, range, dexterity and accessibility to the upper registers of the lower strings, and in his use of natural and artificial harmonics he anticipated Paganini's developments on the violin. He also explored bowing techniques suitable to the Tourte bow, and expanded the use of legato slurring and contrasting dynamics and timbres.

Romberg's instrumental works remained popular throughout the 19th century and are still used for teaching purposes. Stylistically, they reflect the influences of Mozart and Viotti, although their melodies are often derived from idiomatic figures that exploit Romberg's distinctive fingerings. In spite of abundant passage-work, his music shows structural cohesiveness, and the chamber and solo works richly explore the cello's sonority and technical resources.

WORKS
theatrical
Der Schiffbruch (operetta, J.J. Pfeiffer), Bonn, 1791
Die wiedergefundene Statue (op, A.W. Schwick, after C. Gozzi), Bonn, 1790
Ulysses und Circe (op, 3, after P. Calderón de la Barca), Berlin, 1807; as Alma, Hamburg, 1823
Rittertreue (op, F.W. Trautvetter), Berlin, 1817
Daphne und Agathokles (ballet), Berlin, 1818
Incid music: Heinrich IV. (Francke); Phèdre (J. Racine)
orchestral
5 syms., op.23 ('Trauer-Symphonie'), op.28, op.53, 1 without op. no.; Kindersymphonie, op.62; 3 ovs., op.11, op.26, op.34
10 vc concs., op.2, op.3, op.6, op.7, op.30, op.31 ('Military'), op.44 ('Swiss'), op.48 ('Brillante'), op.56 ('Grand'), op.75 ('Brillante'); 6 concertinos, vc, orch; Fl Conc., op.30; Concertino, 2 hn, orch, op.41; Double conc., vn, vc, orch
c50 rondos, variations, fantasias, capriccios, divertimentos, potpourris, vc, orch and vc, str orch/str qt; other concert works with solo fl, vn, pf and hp
other works
Chbr: 11 str qts, 3 as op.1, op.12, 3 as op.25, op.37, op.39, op.59, op.60; Pf Qt, op.22; Divertissement, pf trio, op.71; Str Trio, op.8; 3 Trios, 2 vc, va, op.38; 3 sonatas, vn/vc, pf/hp, op.5, op.6, 1 without op. no.; 9 duos, vn, vc, 3 as op.4, 3 as op.9, 3 as op.33; other duos, collab. A.J. Romberg
Vc studies, 3 bks
Variations, dance pieces, pf solo
Vocal: Laudate Jehova, motet (Russ. text); Ich weiss, das mein Erlöser lebt (P. Gerhardt); 3 passion songs; several solo songs

Good listening,
Gurn
8)


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Now playing:
Kölner Akademie / Willens  (PI) - Romberg Op 28 Symphony #2 in Eb 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on July 11, 2010, 04:00:37 AM
Thanks, Gurn, for the advice on those composers. About Cartellieri, MD&G also released a recording of Gioas, re di Giuda, that is not included in the 5-CD set.

I have an advice for all lovers of sacred music of the Classical period: there's a new Supraphon release, containing the complete sacred works of Voříšek as well as some sacred works by Tomášek. The performance of Musica Florea led by Marek Štryncl is excellent, but in my opinion it doesn't fit very well the works by Tomášek, that would need more substantial vocal and instrumental forces. On the other hand, it does fit Voříšek, whose genius shines in the Mass - that has been recorded before - as well as in the three "minor" sacred works. They are not really "minor": the Offertorium Quoniam iniquitatem, which lasts four minutes, would justify by itself the price of the full CD. Its music is sensational, and would deserve a place among the most excellent sacred music of classicism. The first section is a model of reciprocity between text and music, while the second is an impressive fugue.

Alas, the latin text has been poorly translated to the other languages in the booklet: "Remitte tu mihi Domine priusquam abeam" is translated to English as "Look away from me, Lord, before I depart and be no more". The point is that the Christian specific meaning of "remittere" is "to forgive": the translation should have been "Forgive me, Lord, before I depart".
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2010, 02:52:17 PM
Somewhere, here and there (probably while I was looking for Concerto Köln disks) I ran across this one and decided to have a go at it:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RigelKolncover.jpg)

Turns off to be really quite interesting and worthwhile. Rigel was very well-known and popular in both pre & post Revolutionary Paris, supplying works both of his own composition, and later, work by others that he was the printer/publisher of.

I can easily recommend these works. A contemporary who would be fair to compare to would be Gossec, and I would say that Rigel would come out on the favorable end of that. Nice disk!

Now, some info about Rigel. From Grove's of course. More info than usual since apparently he is only obscure now, certainly not then! :D

Henri-Joseph Rigel
(b Wertheim, 9 Feb 1741; d Paris, 2 May 1799). Conductor, teacher and composer. He was the son of Georg Caspar Riegel, an intendant (from about 1725 to his death in 1754) for Prince Löwenstein. After Georg's death his widow Maria Anna petitioned the prince for the support of her under-aged children, and it is probable that he furthered the musical education of her sons. In 1767 the name Riegel appeared for the first time in the Breitkopf Catalogue, with incipits for seven symphonies and one violin concerto. According to La Borde (Essai sur la musique, 1780), Rigel studied with Jommelli in Stuttgart, was sent by F.X. Richter to France 'pour faire l'éducation d'une jeune personne', and then settled in Paris in 1768. From this statement, it could be inferred that he studied in Mannheim with Richter. However, La Borde's date for Rigel's arrival in the French capital is inexact. The French press places him in Paris early in 1767 with the announcement of his op.1, Six sonates pour clavecin, obtainable 'chez l'auteur, rue S. Marc, maison de M. Dupin de Francueil' (Annonces, 9 April 1767). The dedicatee, Mlle Dupin de Francueil (later George Sand's aunt), is possibly the 'jeune personne' referred to by La Borde. Rigel was probably first employed, about 1764–5, outside Paris on her father's estates. In 1768 he established his own residence in Paris, and that is also the probable date of his marriage; it was in these quarters that his sons were born in 1769 and 1772.

During the 1770s Rigel wrote numerous instrumental works (sonatas, quartets, concertos and symphonies) that were performed in Parisian concert rooms. On 2 February 1774 a symphony by Rigel first appeared on a programme at the Concert Spirituel. Two oratorios by him written during this period, La sortie d'Egypte (1774) and La déstruction de Jéricho (1778), enjoyed an immense success; the former was performed at the Concert Spirituel no fewer than 27 times from 1775 to 1786, and was performed in Paris as late as 1822. In about 1780 Rigel turned his attention from instrumental and sacred vocal composition to the writing of large-scale stage works. After 1780 his wife is no longer mentioned, and within the next two years, his younger brother Anton Riegel came to live with him and act as his publisher until Boyer took over the sale and publication of his works in 1784. Between 1778 and his death in 1799, Rigel composed all of his 14 operatic works. He worked with a variety of librettists, composing operas for most of the prominent Parisian theatres, including the Comédie-Italienne, Théâtre Feydeau, Théâtre de l'Ambigu-Comique and the Opéra. In 1783 (and later) he was officially listed among the ten 'compositeurs de Concert Spirituel'. According to the projet of 1783 for the Ecole Royale de Chant, Rigel was appointed maître de solfège. The same source states that he was previously associated with the Paris Opéra. After the Revolution, when the school was reorganized as the Conservatoire, he remained as a professor première classe of the piano, a position he held for the rest of his life. Also in 1783 (and in 1787–8) Rigel is listed as chef d'orchestre of the Concert Spirituel. In the early 1790s works by him appeared frequently on programmes at the Cirque du Palais-Royal and the Concert du Cirque National.

Henri-Joseph Rigel was one of the most respected musicians in Paris during the last quarter of the 18th century. His contemporaries praised the excellence of his teaching as well as the quality of his compositions. His oratorios and motets, all written for the Concert Spirituel, had remarkable records of performances. Although he composed 14 stage works (of which most of the music is lost), Rigel was less successful as an operatic composer; his talent was lyrical rather than dramatic. Of his most popular opera, Rosanie (1780), the editor of the Mercure de France, after reproaching the composer for interrupting the forward motion of his action with 'des airs à roulades', wrote the following: 'his style is pure; his workmanship is learned; his composition is full of ideas; his expression is true; his accompaniments well conceived, and his melodies of a fluent and graceful nature'. Rigel's principal contribution, however, was to instrumental music. His numerous works for the keyboard continued the tradition of the French piano school begun by Schobert. Except for the sonatas op.1 (1767), all his keyboard compositions are accompanied by a diversified assortment of instruments. Most are in two or three concise movements. Half of the Six sonates op.13 employ dance or dance-like movements: Scherzo, Allemande stirienne, Marcia maestoso à la polonese, etc. Despite their designation of both harpsichord and piano in the title, his works appear to have been conceived primarily for the piano, as evidenced by their wide range of dynamics and sonorities. The very nature of their settings, i.e. Sonates de clavecin en quatuor op.7, or Second oeuvre de symphonies pour le clavecin ou piano-forte op.17 (both with optional parts for two violins, two horns and a cello), indicates the composer's orchestral conception and treatment of the instrument. Similarly, half the solo sonatas show a strong influence of contemporary orchestral style: there are full, repeated chords in both hands at the opening of movements and important cadences, extended octave tremolos, and strongly contrasting second themes preceded by pauses. Rigel wrote more than 20 orchestral works, comprising symphonies, solo concertos, and an unusual Concerto concertant op.20 for keyboard and solo violin with orchestra. All are in three movements, except for the Sinfonie pastorale (op.21 no.4), which has an opening Andante preceding the usual fast–slow–fast movements. Frequent performances of this work were reported at the Concert Spirituel, Concert des Amateurs and the Concert de la Loge Olympique. The orchestral works are excellent examples of an internationalized style. The salient feature in Rigel's orchestral music, as pointed out by Sondheimer (1956, p.223), is its remarkable lyricism. Sondheimer distinguished two melodic types, the first of 'sweet grace and loveliness with every tone of touching affection [symbolizing] ... feminine beauty. The second is in the minor and of a passionate and yearning disposition'. Rigel applied his lyrical gifts to many genres and styles with a great deal of success.

WORKS
operas
first performed in Paris unless otherwise stated - printed works published in Paris
Le savetier et le financier (oc, 2, J.-B. Lourdet de Santerre, after J. de La Fontaine), Marly, 23 Oct 1778 (1782), airs (1778), ov. (1779)
Le départ des matelots (cmda, 1, ?J. Rutlidge), Comédie-Italienne (Bourgogne), 23 Nov 1778
Cora et Alonzo (grand opéra, 4, P.-U. Dubuisson), commissioned by Opéra, 1779, unperf.
Rosanie (comédie lyrique, 3, A.-M.-D. Devismes), Comédie-Italienne (Bourgogne), 24 July 1780, excerpts (1780); rev. as Azélie, Monsieur, 4 July 1790, F-Mc, excerpts (n.d.)
Blanche et Vermeille (comédie pastorale, 2, J.-P. Florian), Comédie-Italienne (Bourgogne), 5 March 1781; rev. (2), 26 May 1781 (1781); rev. (1), 26 March 1782, excerpts (n.d.)
L'automate (cmda, 1, Cuinet-Dorbeil), Comédie-Italienne (Bourgogne), 20 Aug 1781
Ariane fille de Minos (comédie mêlée de couplets, 1, L.H. Dancourt), Beaujolais, 1784
Les amours du Gros-Caillou (oc, 1, F.-J. Guillemain), Beaujolais, 10 April 1786
Aline et Zamorin, ou L'amour turc [also listed as Atine et Zamorin] (opéra bouffon, 3, Dancourt), Beaujolais, 26 Sept 1786, excerpts (n.d.)
L'entrée du seigneur (oc, 1, Lebas), Beaujolais, 21 Oct 1786
Lucas et Babet, ou La veillée (oc, 1, ?J.-L. Gabiot de Salins), Beaujolais, 15 June 1787, Pc*
Alix de Beaucaire (drame lyrique, 3, M.-J. Boutillier), commissioned by Comédie-Italienne, 1787, perf. Montansier, 10 Nov 1791, Mc, Pc*
Estelle et Némorin (mélodrame pastoral, 2, Gabiot de Salins, after Florian), Ambigu-Comique, 25 June 1788 (1788)
Le bon fermier (cmda, 1, ?E.J.B. Delrieu or Gabiot de Salins), Beaujolais, 18 May 1789, Pc*
Pauline et Henri (cmda, 1, Boutillier), Feydeau, 9 Nov 1793, Pc; as Edmond et Caroline, Pc*
Le magot de la Chine (opéra bouffon, 1, Dancourt), Ambigu-Comique, 6 Aug 1800 [posth.]
other vocal
Sacred (all perf. Paris, Concert Spirituel): La sortie d'Egypte, orat, 1774; La déstruction de Jéricho, orat, 1778; Regina coeli, motet, grand chorus, 1780; Ave verum, motet, 1783; Jepthé, orat, 1783; Les macchabées, orat
Revolutionary: Hymne sur l'enfance, ou Le devoir des mères (F.G. Desfontaines) (Paris, 1794); Hymne à la liberté, ou Hymne pour la Fête du 10 août (Baour-Lormian), 4vv (Paris, 1795), ed. C. Pierre, Fêtes et cérémonies de la Révolution française (Paris, 1899)
Many others pubd in collections and singly, incl. Le ménage comme il y a peu (Person) (Paris, 1793), L'amant trahi, ariette (Paris, c1778); some pubd in Mercure de France
instrumental
First published in Paris; many later editions in Mannheim, Offenbach and Vienna, usually with different opus numbers; see DTB, xxviii, Jg.xvi (1915/R)
Syms.: 7 cited in Breitkopf catalogue of 1767 [1 pubd as op.12 no.1, 2 pubd as op.21 nos.3 and 5, 1 in CH-E, 3 lost]; 1, C, c1767, D-Rtt [listed under '?A. Riegel']; 6 sinfonies, op.12 (1774), nos. 2, 4 ed. R. Sondheimer (London, 1938–9); 1, D, no.3 in 3 simphonies à grand orchestre: Gossec & Rigel (1782); 1, g, no.2 in 3 simphonies à grand orchestre: Rosetti, Rigel & Ditters (1783); 6 simphonies, op.21 (1786), no.2 ed. in B.S. Brook (1962), 2 ed. in Foreign Composers in France, 1750–1790 (New York, 1984)
Concs.: 1 for vn, G, cited in Breitkopf Catalogue of 1767; ler, hpd, op.2 (c1770); 2me, hpd, op.3 (c1770); 2 for hpd, op.11 (c1773); 1 for hpd, no.1 in Journal de pièces de clavecin, ?op.19 (1784); Concerto concertant, hpd, solo vn, no.36 of Journal de pièces de clavecin, op.20 (1786)
Chbr: 6 sonates, hpd, op.1 (1767); 6 quatuors dialogués, str qt, op.4 (c1770); Pièces de clavecin mêlées de préludes pour les commenceants, op.5 (c1770); Suite des pièces ... mêlées de préludes, hpd, acc. vn ad lib, op.6 (c1771); Sonates de clavecin en quatuor, opt. acc. 2 vn, 2 hn, vc, op.7 (c1771); 6 sonates de clavecin en quatuor, op.8 (c1772); Sonates de clavecin en quatuor, op.9 (c1772); Second oeuvre de quatuors dialogués, str qt, op.10 (c1773?, 6 sonates, hpd, acc. vn ad lib, op.13 (1777), march from no.4 ed. in G. de Saint-Foix (1924); 3 duos, pf/hpd, op.14 (c1777) [also pubd as qts, 2 vn, va, pf]; 3 sonates en symphonies, hpd/pf, op.16 (1783); Second oeuvre de symphonies, hpd/pf, op.17 (1784); 3 sonates, hpd/pf, op. 18 (1784); other chbr and kbd pieces in 18th-century anthologies; various arrs.


8)

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Now playing:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment \ Podger - Hob 07a 01 Concerto in C for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2010, 02:58:33 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on July 11, 2010, 04:00:37 AM
Thanks, Gurn, for the advice on those composers. About Cartellieri, MD&G also released a recording of Gioas, re di Giuda, that is not included in the 5-CD set.

I have an advice for all lovers of sacred music of the Classical period: there's a new Supraphon release, containing the complete sacred works of Voříšek as well as some sacred works by Tomášek. The performance of Musica Florea led by Marek Štryncl is excellent, but in my opinion it doesn't fit very well the works by Tomášek, that would need more substantial vocal and instrumental forces. On the other hand, it does fit Voříšek, whose genius shines in the Mass - that has been recorded before - as well as in the three "minor" sacred works. They are not really "minor": the Offertorium Quoniam iniquitatem, which lasts four minutes, would justify by itself the price of the full CD. Its music is sensational, and would deserve a place among the most excellent sacred music of classicism. The first section is a model of reciprocity between text and music, while the second is an impressive fugue.

Alas, the latin text has been poorly translated to the other languages in the booklet: "Remitte tu mihi Domine priusquam abeam" is translated to English as "Look away from me, Lord, before I depart and be no more". The point is that the Christian specific meaning of "remittere" is "to forgive": the translation should have been "Forgive me, Lord, before I depart".

Gabriel,
Thanks for the note about Gioas, re di Giuda. I saw that but didn't know what it was at the time. I am going to go back and see if I can still get it. Haydn kinda got me into oratorios a bit. :)

Voříšek and Tomášek are 2 names that have come up frequently in my reading, but I have yet to hear anything by them. Voříšek in particular wrote some pianoforte sonatas that look interesting. I am going to see what I can find there. Thanks for the tip. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment \ Podger - Hob 07a 01 Concerto in C for Violin 3rd mvmt - Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The new erato on July 12, 2010, 02:22:46 AM
(http://www.europadisc.co.uk/thumb/phpThumb.php?src=../images/products/1278597824_CHAN106285X.jpg&w=190&h=190&zc=1)

These have now been boxed at 5 for the price of 2. Sale at europadisc means 17 Vatfree £.

I think I have the Krommer one, but still find this interesting.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2010, 04:22:58 AM
Quote from: erato on July 12, 2010, 02:22:46 AM
(http://www.europadisc.co.uk/thumb/phpThumb.php?src=../images/products/1278597824_CHAN106285X.jpg&w=190&h=190&zc=1)

These have now been boxed at 5 for the price of 2. Sale at europadisc means 17 Vatfree £.

I think I have the Krommer one, but still find this interesting.

As you should! I have most of them, lacking just a couple, I think, and have found them very interesting listening. Many of them were like a new door opening for me into what had been, til then, basically the Era of Mozart & Haydn. Hope they are introduced widely in that box set format. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 12, 2010, 04:36:11 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2010, 02:52:17 PM
Somewhere, here and there (probably while I was looking for Concerto Köln disks) I ran across this one and decided to have a go at it:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RigelKolncover.jpg)

Turns off to be really quite interesting and worthwhile...

Yes - these are fine indeed and I second the recommendation heartily.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on July 12, 2010, 06:02:21 AM
Quote from: erato on July 12, 2010, 02:22:46 AM
(http://www.europadisc.co.uk/thumb/phpThumb.php?src=../images/products/1278597824_CHAN106285X.jpg&w=190&h=190&zc=1)

These have now been boxed at 5 for the price of 2.

I think I have the Krommer one, but still find this interesting.

Good news. I'd been putting off buying the singles anticipating something like that (as I do for most discs which are part of a series). Now, should I wait for every contemporary of Mozart to be put in an even larger box...? I only hope they have kept the liner notes intact; that's something one tends to lose out on when opting for boxed sets.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2010, 06:26:40 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 12, 2010, 06:02:21 AM
Good news. I'd been putting off buying the singles anticipating something like that (as I do for most discs which are part of a series). Now, should I wait for every contemporary of Mozart to be put in an even larger box...? I only hope they have kept the liner notes intact; that's something one tends to lose out on when opting for boxed sets.

I don't know the answer to the liner notes question, but if you go to  this link (http://www.chandos.net/details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN%209916) you can download the booklet for the Wranitzky disk included in that box, and the same holds true for all other Chandos disks. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2010, 06:28:59 AM
Nicely done, Gurn! (Your esteemed self became an enjoyable topic as Bruce & I chatted over breakfast yesterday, BTW.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2010, 06:33:22 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 12, 2010, 06:28:59 AM
Nicely done, Gurn! (Your esteemed self became an enjoyable topic as Bruce & I chatted over breakfast yesterday, BTW.)

Oh oh, now you're scarin' me, Karl... :)

It is my cherished hope to make you a classicist. I'll continue working on that... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on July 12, 2010, 06:34:15 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2010, 06:26:40 AM
I don't know the answer to the liner notes question, but if you go to  this link (http://www.chandos.net/details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN%209916) you can download the booklet for the Wranitzky disk included in that box, and the same holds true for all other Chandos disks. :)

8)

¡Excellente ¡Muchas gracias, Sr. Blanston. :)

Now, bring on those boxes!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on July 12, 2010, 08:56:31 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2010, 02:58:33 PM
Voříšek and Tomášek are 2 names that have come up frequently in my reading, but I have yet to hear anything by them. Voříšek in particular wrote some pianoforte sonatas that look interesting. I am going to see what I can find there. Thanks for the tip. :)

Gurn, don't tell me you don't have any recording of Voříšek's symphony? You're missing one of the highlights of late classicism!

Voříšek left a small amount of works, but many of them could be chosen for an anthology of classical era. In my opinion, you should buy urgently ;):

1) The symphony (probably by Mackerras).
2) Piano works (there's a complete recording by Kvapil - modern piano - in Supraphon; otherwise there is a splendid pianoforte performance by Tverskaya of a selection of piano works).
3) Chamber works (there is a compilation played by Klansky and the Kocian Quartet).
4) Sacred music (the recent CD by Štryncl/Musica Florea).

On the other hand, there are very few recordings of works by Tomášek. There is a very enjoyable recording in Supraphon of two piano concertos (I'm particularly fond of the beautiful first subject of the first movement of the first piano concerto). I own a CD with some of his songs and another with one of his Requiem masses (this work is really interesting, but alas, the recorded sound is quite poor).

Finally, people who have not bought the individual CDs of that recent Chandos release (Krommer/Stamitz/Pleyel/Kozeluch/Wranitzky), should really consider buying the set. Beautiful music, beautifully recorded.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 13, 2010, 11:27:22 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2010, 09:57:39 AM
Over the course of the last couple of years, member SonicMan has been periodically bringing up a composer named Antonio Casimir Cartellieri. Despite the fact that Dave has consummate good taste, I was tied up enough with other composers at the time that I have it a miss. .........................

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Cartelliericover.jpg)

So, if the opportunity comes along for you to snap up one of his disks for a tryout, by all means do it. Being a chamber guy, I am particularly taken by his clarinet quartets (of which there are 5 recorded). But if you prefer a good concerto, don't overlook these!  :)

Hello Gurn - just returned from my 'too short' Virginia vacation, so ready to get back into some thread 'reviewing & responding!' -  ;D

Antonio Cartellieri - glad that you were able to pick up that MDG package (I've not seem it offered and curious about the packaging, i.e. sleeves vs. separate jewel boxes?) - I remember starting a thread on him in the old forum but seemed to generate little interest, which was a lost opportunity for those who enjoy classical wind writing that was well done by this composer.

I don't believe that my collection of his works has increased in recent years - still have 3 of those MDG recordings (Clarinet Concertos & Quartets, & Wind Sextet); also have a CPO disc of the Wind Divertimenti w/ Klocker's Consortium Classicum - this is all wonderful wind music along w/ excellent performances and top-notch recorded sound!  I hope that we might stimulate others to partake -  :D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 13, 2010, 11:48:44 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2010, 06:56:01 PM
Another composer who has been mentioned here a few times but had previously been nearly unexplored by me is Bernard Romberg. Not a clarinetist finally, but in fact a very well-known and highly regarded cellist instead.

Bernhard Heinrich Romberg (b Dinklage, Oldenburg, 13 Nov 1767; d Hamburg, 13 Aug 1841). Cellist and composer, cousin of (1) Andreas Jakob Romberg....................

Gurn - thanks for the information on Bernhard Romberg - I said 'well, I do own a few discs by him' - wrong, I have recordings by his cousin (in bold above)!  So, if you've not explore Andreas (who was born also in 1767!), the SQs on the MDG label are excellent; in the mean time, I'll add Bernhard to my 'wish list' - Dave  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411NaWyP2cL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jKEPlZbIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 13, 2010, 11:54:39 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on July 13, 2010, 11:27:22 AM
Hello Gurn - just returned from my 'too short' Virginia vacation, so ready to get back into some thread 'reviewing & responding!' -  ;D

Antonio Cartellieri - glad that you were able to pick up that MDG package (I've not seem it offered and curious about the packaging, i.e. sleeves vs. separate jewel boxes?) - I remember starting a thread on him in the old forum but seemed to generate little interest, which was a lost opportunity for those who enjoy classical wind writing that was well done by this composer.

I don't believe that my collection of his works has increased in recent years - still have 3 of those MDG recordings (Clarinet Concertos & Quartets, & Wind Sextet); also have a CPO disc of the Wind Divertimenti w/ Klocker's Consortium Classicum - this is all wonderful wind music along w/ excellent performances and top-notch recorded sound!  I hope that we might stimulate others to partake -  :D  Dave

Dave,
Gonna have to go to Europe for the box set. I found it at  JPC (http://tinyurl.com/2faf2vn). Everything you've said about it is true, I have to agree. Of course, I've only been once through it so far, time to sit down and give it a serious listening. I've picked up quite a bit lately that needs that treatment too. So much music, so little time... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 13, 2010, 11:57:12 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on July 13, 2010, 11:48:44 AM
Gurn - thanks for the information on Bernhard Romberg - I said 'well, I do own a few discs by him' - wrong, I have recordings by his cousin (in bold above)!  So, if you've not explore Andreas (who was born also in 1767!), the SQs on the MDG label are excellent; in the mean time, I'll add Bernhard to my 'wish list' - Dave  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411NaWyP2cL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jKEPlZbIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Ah, I thought you had said string quartets, but I didn't run across any. Mystery solved. I also thought that you had the "Cello and the King" CD. I do recommend that to any that will listen, it's a good disk no matter which of the composers that you are listening to. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2010, 04:22:58 AM
Old composer (to us) new disk (to me). :)

I always get Onslow disks when I run across them. I like his music, it is far enough off the familiar that it always seems new to me. So when I saw this one (Op 54, 55 & 56 Quartets):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513iSA66jdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I did indeed snap it up. And sure glad I did! IMO, this is the best music that Onslow has written, and these guys really play the hell out of it. Not sure if I agree with their fashion sense, but I sure do with their playing. This is the Diotima Quartet, BTW, and here is an Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Onslow-String-Quartets-Op-54/dp/B002UOOM30/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280924179&sr=8-1) link if you want to have a look. I'm on my third listening and enjoying it more each time. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on August 04, 2010, 08:13:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2010, 04:22:58 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513iSA66jdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I did indeed snap it up. And sure glad I did! IMO, this is the best music that Onslow has written, and these guys really play the hell out of it. Not sure if I agree with their fashion sense, but I sure do with their playing. This is the Diotima Quartet, BTW, and here is an Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Onslow-String-Quartets-Op-54/dp/B002UOOM30/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280924179&sr=8-1) link if you want to have a look. I'm on my third listening and enjoying it more each time. :)

8)

Nice!  :) :)

And now for the crucial question: are they .....HIPPIes??? :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2010, 08:19:50 AM
Quote from: Que on August 04, 2010, 08:13:23 AM
Nice!  :) :)

And now for the crucial question: are they .....HIPPIes??? :)

Q

Dressed like that?  :D

No, I'm afraid not. This is one of the very few non-PI disks I've rec'd in the last 5 years or so. It just takes a bit of ear training to get used to the sound of modern instruments. It isn't easy at first, but eventually you get the hang of it. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 04, 2010, 04:10:04 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2010, 04:22:58 AM
Old composer (to us) new disk (to me). :)

I always get Onslow disks when I run across them. I like his music, it is far enough off the familiar that it always seems new to me. So when I saw this one (Op 54, 55 & 56 Quartets):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513iSA66jdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://www.joeyvan.com/files/image/through_the_years/OakRidgeBoys.jpg)

I did indeed snap it up. And sure glad I did! IMO, this is the best music that Onslow has written, and these guys really play the hell out of it. Not sure if I agree with their fashion sense.....

Gurn - LOL!  ;D  Reminded me of the Oak Ridge Boys (a group that Susan & I've seen live a few times and enjoy, esp. the bass guy!) -  :D

BUT!  You & I were quite active in the 'old forum' on the Onslow thread and I now have probably about 10 discs of this fascinating composer - so checked my database; DAMN, no SQs!  Will definitely add this one to my list, esp. after your comments and those of Scott on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Onslow-String-Quartets-Op-54/dp/B002UOOM30/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280965387&sr=1-1)!

Thanks for the recommendation - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2010, 04:42:56 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on August 04, 2010, 04:10:04 PM
Gurn - LOL!  ;D  Reminded me of the Oak Ridge Boys (a group that Susan & I've seen live a few times and enjoy, esp. the bass guy!) -  :D

BUT!  You & I were quite active in the 'old forum' on the Onslow thread and I now have probably about 10 discs of this fascinating composer - so checked my database; DAMN, no SQs!  Will definitely add this one to my list, esp. after your comments and those of Scott on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Onslow-String-Quartets-Op-54/dp/B002UOOM30/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280965387&sr=1-1)!

Thanks for the recommendation - Dave  :)

;D Crikey, they're kinfolk! BTW, I always thought the bass in TORB was excellent too. Always admired a good bass. :)

Good to see that Scott agrees with me. I didn't have anything fancy to say like that, just that I would buy this disk again if I had to. :)  I know you'll like it, I like his phrase "Schubert-and-water". I've always sort of felt like that, like his music was very good but just lacked that bit of extras punch that put it over the top. This doesn't lack for anything, as near as I can tell... :)

8)

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Now playing:
The Hanover Band / Goodman - Hob 01 072 Symphony in D 4th mvmt - Finale: Andante - Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on August 04, 2010, 05:07:17 PM
I did not know that the Diotima Quartet performed the classical repertory - all I have them on is 20th century music -
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2010, 05:14:23 PM
Quote from: Franco on August 04, 2010, 05:07:17 PM
I did not know that the Diotima Quartet performed the classical repertory - all I have them on is 20th century music -

As I understand it, they are just branching out. They won a Diapason d'Or for this, as well as for a modern one they did (Lachnemann and Nono) so apparently they are pretty versatile. You might really like this disk, Franco, It has some excellent playing of some very, very nice music. :)

8)
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Now playing:
The Hanover Band / Goodman - Hob 01 016 Symphony in Bb 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Franco on August 04, 2010, 05:57:50 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2010, 05:14:23 PM
As I understand it, they are just branching out. They won a Diapason d'Or for this, as well as for a modern one they did (Lachnemann and Nono) so apparently they are pretty versatile. You might really like this disk, Franco, It has some excellent playing of some very, very nice music. :)

8)
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Now playing:
The Hanover Band / Goodman - Hob 01 016 Symphony in Bb 2nd mvmt - Andante

The Lachenmann/Nono is the one I have.  Very different music.  Thanks for the info on their Classical recording, it may end up in my hands.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2010, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: Franco on August 04, 2010, 05:57:50 PM
The Lachenmann/Nono is the one I have.  Very different music.  Thanks for the info on their Classical recording, it may end up in my hands.

:) Yeah, a little different anyway. :)  It really is quite a distance to travel from Nono to Onslow... :)

8)

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Now playing:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken  Suzuki - Hob 07b 1 Concerto in C for Cello 3rd mvmt - Allegro molto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: snyprrr on August 05, 2010, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: Franco on August 04, 2010, 05:57:50 PM
The Lachenmann/Nono is the one I have.  Very different music.  Thanks for the info on their Classical recording, it may end up in my hands.

That disc made me sell two Ardittis!! :o That Nono is in my TopRotation!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on August 05, 2010, 10:55:36 AM
I have a lot of Onslow's CD : the mandelring quartett is a referrence in 3 cd of op op8/1 ,op50,op46/2,op4/1,
op10/1,op46/3, op9/1 and 3, op47. With the Cd of Diotima's you have a good scope of early to late quartets
of Onslow .
For piano piano pieces : laurent Martin and thierry Ravassart in 2 sonatas 4 hands op 7 (where we can detect
harmonic influences of Dussek ) and op22 . ... and a toccata op 6 (1810) that is prototype of the Schumann's one.

Symphonies :NDR RP /J goritzki

Piano trios : by the Trio Cascades in 2 CD
string Quintets :by l'Archibudelli (op,39,40,and op38 with piano)
Piano Quintets  : Ensemble monsolo (op 70, 38)
I think with this is a good beginning ;D
i
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2010, 11:11:17 AM
Quote from: assadourian on August 05, 2010, 10:55:36 AM
I have a lot of Onslow's CD : the mandelring quartett is a referrence in 3 cd of op op8/1 ,op50,op46/2,op4/1,
op10/1,op46/3, op9/1 and 3, op47. With the Cd of Diotima's you have a good scope of early to late quartets
of Onslow .
For piano piano pieces : laurent Martin and thierry Ravassart in 2 sonatas 4 hands op 7 (where we can detect
harmonic influences of Dussek ) and op22 . ... and a toccata op 6 (1810) that is prototype of the Schumann's one.

Symphonies :NDR RP /J goritzki

Piano trios : by the Trio Cascades in 2 CD
string Quintets :by l'Archibudelli (op,39,40,and op38 with piano)
Piano Quintets  : Ensemble monsolo (op 70, 38)
I think with this is a good beginning ;D
i

assadourian,
Yes, quite a good beginning. I agree, those 3 Mandelring disks + the Diotima do cover some ground on the quartets. I guess there are others but I haven't really looked, happy with what I have. I also heve 3 disks on MD&G with 2 quintets each, as well as the L'Archibudelli and feel like those are well covered too. Also just got the 'moderntimes 1800' disk with the 3 violin sonatas on it, but haven't listened enough to it to comment yet. I am interested in the piano pieces though. I am pretty sure that I haven't heard any solo or 4 hands piano by Onslow, and that's too bad, I would like to do. I shall take your recs and go shopping. :)

You should join us here more often, you seem like a kindred spirit! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2010, 01:48:38 PM
Quote from: assadourian on August 05, 2010, 10:55:36 AM
I have a lot of Onslow's CD : the mandelring quartett is a referrence in 3 cd of op op8/1 ,op50,op46/2,op4/1,
op10/1,op46/3, op9/1 and 3, op47. With the Cd of Diotima's you have a good scope of early to late quartets
of Onslow .
For piano piano pieces : laurent Martin and thierry Ravassart in 2 sonatas 4 hands op 7 (where we can detect
harmonic influences of Dussek ) and op22 . ... and a toccata op 6 (1810) that is prototype of the Schumann's one.

Symphonies :NDR RP /J goritzki

Piano trios : by the Trio Cascades in 2 CD
string Quintets :by l'Archibudelli (op,39,40,and op38 with piano)
Piano Quintets  : Ensemble monsolo (op 70, 38)
I think with this is a good beginning ;D
i

Assadourian - glad to see a 'new' poster in this thread - Gurn & I have been Onslow fans for years and likely have a lot of overlapping discs (which include many of the ones you have listed above) - currently I have about a dozen but must explore the Quartets more, and do not have any of his piano music - plan a purchase of the recent Gurn recommendation; also own the one below which is enjoyable -  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41I9d7d1alL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2010, 08:05:34 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2010, 06:33:22 AM
It is my cherished hope to make you a classicist. I'll continue working on that... :)
8)

And I'm working hard to make him a Wagner/Mahlerite  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2010, 08:23:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2010, 08:05:34 AM
And I'm working hard to make him a Wagner/Mahlerite  :D

Sarge

...and making me ill at the same time; 2 birds with 1 stone. You're a bad man, Sarge! :)

8)

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Now playing:
London Symphony Orchestra & Chorus \ Carlo Giulini - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace - Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on August 14, 2010, 07:00:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2010, 08:23:12 AM
...and making me ill at the same time; 2 birds with 1 stone. You're a bad man, Sarge! :)

8)
With metal choke
and chain'ed collar,
he leads them t'ward
the Gates of Mahler!

>:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 22, 2010, 07:03:32 PM
Danzi, Franz (1763-1826) - Wind Quintets - love these works! For a while I've owned the 3 Naxos discs w/ the Michael Thompson Wind Quintet; recently on BRO the Op. 68 works were offered at a bargain price w/ the Reicha Quintett on 'period instruments' (not sure if the ones shown on the cover are the actual instruments used in the performance?) - I really like these period instruments in the Danzi works!  Now, should I replace the other sets in my collection (Danzi has 3 Op. numbers in the wind quintets - Op. 56, 67, 68 - reference HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Danzi)?)  Could obtain the others and keep both but space is always an issue for me -  ::)

So, just wondering what thoughts may be from those who have heard these two groups in these 'windy works' - thanks for any comments -  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DanziOp68Reicha/976574847_m98Cp-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DanziOp68MT/976574787_JBkKw-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2010, 07:36:58 PM
Hi, Dave,
Well, I have all 3 opera of those wind quintets, but not on any of those labels! Mine are the Berlin Philharmonic Wind Quintet on BIS. The music is very nice indeed, and well played. I must say, however, that your Reicha Quintet version on PI has a lot of attraction for me. Need to check that out. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514uvgpKddL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

8)

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Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 165 1 Op 12 #1 Sonata #01 in D for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 23, 2010, 01:27:58 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2010, 07:36:58 PM
Hi, Dave,
Well, I have all 3 opera of those wind quintets, but not on any of those labels! Mine are the Berlin Philharmonic Wind Quintet on BIS. The music is very nice indeed, and well played. I must say, however, that your Reicha Quintet version on PI has a lot of attraction for me. Need to check that out. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514uvgpKddL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pdJ5M7LuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Hello Gurn - NCA has packaged the 3 discs into a foldout (pic inserted above) but the Amazon Marketplace (w/ S/H added) wants $40!  The recordings are available on Classics Online for about $23 in MP3 format.  On Amazon a review from Fanfare by Jerry Dubins HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Danzi-Complete-Wind-Quintets/dp/B002AT465O/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282598409&sr=1-5) is rather ambiguous - not sure that he likes wind music from this era and/or thinks that Danzi was not a good composer - I find the music quite enjoyable (in either of the two groups that I now own) - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on August 26, 2010, 01:59:33 AM
I think Danzi's quintets are pleasant, but I can't say I find them very interesting. It's probably a consequence of my previous acquaintance with Rejcha's wind quintets, which (in my very humble opinion) are in a totally different level.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2010, 05:03:41 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on August 26, 2010, 01:59:33 AM
I think Danzi's quintets are pleasant, but I can't say I find them very interesting. It's probably a consequence of my previous acquaintance with Rejcha's wind quintets, which (in my very humble opinion) are in a totally different level.

True enough, Reicha's 5tets are in a league of their own. I don't think it is any bad criticism at all to say that a wind quintet is not as good as Reicha's!   :D  However, there is very little else out there to compare them to, as it seems to be an underexploited genre, to say the least! So it goes. :(

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Henk on August 27, 2010, 08:09:32 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2010, 02:52:17 PM
Somewhere, here and there (probably while I was looking for Concerto Köln disks) I ran across this one and decided to have a go at it:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RigelKolncover.jpg)


Concerto Koln! They already impressed me with their recording of Wilms and Myslivecek.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2010, 01:44:09 PM
Quote from: Henk on August 27, 2010, 08:09:32 AM
Concerto Koln! They already impressed me with their recording of Wilms and Myslivecek.

Oh, yes indeed, I enjoy both of those disks too. Along with their Brunetti, Rosetti, Kraus... well, actually, pretty much their entire discography is pretty darn good! As well as being off the beaten track, by and large. I certainly appreciate that!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center / Shifrin - Bia 204 Op 20 Septet in Eb for Strings & Winds 1st mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on September 01, 2010, 08:28:53 AM
Concerto Koln! They already impressed me with their recording of Wilms and Myslivecek.
[/quote]


I admire this formation ,so. They explore a lot unknown composers of this period.
If you don't have , you can buy "eyes closed" , the piano concerti op 22 and 49 with
Andreas Staier at the piano . The op 49 in g, is  very very outstanding , perhaps one
of most forcefull and passionate of the 1800's.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jvfOUivUL._SL160_AA115_.jpg
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 04, 2010, 07:03:25 AM
Well, thought that I'd re-post a brief 'listening thread' entry here for posterity!  ;D

Just acquired the Onslow SQ discs below - now have 3 discs of the SQs & 3 discs of the SQuintets; not even a third of the way to his total output of about 70 works in these two genres!  Just finished the Quatuor Diotima disc and have to agree w/ Gurn - this is wonderfully composed and intricate music, early Romantic but looking toward the future - the performers are just superb in their playing; these are later works (post-LvB last SQs) and show more complexity and individuality at least to my ears.  The second disc just starting to spin!  :D

QuoteSome 'new' arrivals the last few days but just getting a chance to listen on this Labor Day weekend!

Geroges Onslow (1784-1853) - String Quartets but with two different groups & labels; these include 6 different works (2 from Op. 9, and also Op. 47, 54-56) - we've had previous discussions on this rediscovered composer who was French born w/ an English father, and mainly German-trained - he wrote about 70 String Quartets/Quintets (nearly split in half);  many likely yet to be found, published & performed!

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/OnslowSQs5457/994046366_J4Avh-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/OnslowSQs947/994046356_7rmYr-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Cristofori on September 04, 2010, 10:09:44 AM
Hello Gurn,

Although I listen to classical type music from many genres and eras (my favorite probably being Baroque), I'm trying to learn more about the Classical era in particular.

The problem for me though is that I'm confused about just what exactly the Classical era really is. It seems there are many composers from this period that have a foot in the late Baroque or early Romantic eras, and the whole genre is so thoroughly overshadowed by the big three (Mozart, Haydn & early Beethoven), that few others come to mind or seldom get any attention.

I know of some Classical era composers, like Hummel, Stamnitz, Bach's sons, etc., but can you give me any links to a more definitive list of other composers that are firmly grounded in this era that are worth listening too? I probably have some of them in my collection already (I have so many LP's and CD's bought second hand I'm not even sure what I have anymore...). Also, any recommended books on this era would be appreciated.

I know you may have already given such a list on this thread somewhere, but I'm not a regular here and would rather save myself the trouble of looking.

Thank you,
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 04, 2010, 02:06:22 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on September 04, 2010, 10:09:44 AM
.........

I know you may have already given such a list on this thread somewhere, but I'm not a regular here and would rather save myself the trouble of looking........

Well, I'm not Gurn but we both share a major interest in this era regardless of how the period is defined; of course, traditionally the time from the death of JS Bach to that of Beethoven is often conveniently used, i.e. about 1750 to the late 1820s - obviously there is considerable 'overlap' at both ends and many interesting transitional composers existed beyond the usual three or so, both earlier and later.

If you are not familiar w/ Boccherini, I would suggest exploring some of his works - he was quite prolific and his chamber works are a joy to many; the 'string quintets' would be a good start.  I would also suggest simply looking carefully through this thread - Gurn providing such lists of composers in the earlier pages, and many other composers have been introduced and discussed here.

You may also want to explore the 'Composer Thread' that Lethe has put together, a compilation of specific composer topics; there birth-death dates are given, so you can easily match the time period suggested previously.

I'll let others add more and I'm sure that our 'thread master' will chime in shortly - good luck in your exploration - this happens to be my favorite classical music time period!   :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on September 04, 2010, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on September 04, 2010, 02:06:22 PM
You may also want to explore the 'Composer Thread' that Lethe has put together, a compilation of specific composer topics; there birth-death dates are given, so you can easily match the time period suggested previously.
I would've loved to be able to do something more with that thread to assist accessability, such as colour code the composers to period (with shades in between for transitional ones) but I am running out of word limit on the two posts as it is :'(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 04, 2010, 03:42:31 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on September 04, 2010, 07:03:25 AM
Well, thought that I'd re-post a brief 'listening thread' entry here for posterity!  ;D

Just acquired the Onslow SQ discs below - now have 3 discs of the SQs & 3 discs of the SQuintets; not even a third of the way to his total output of about 70 works in these two genres!  Just finished the Quatuor Diotima disc and have to agree w/ Gurn - this is wonderfully composed and intricate music, early Romantic but looking toward the future - the performers are just superb in their playing; these are later works (post-LvB last SQs) and show more complexity and individuality at least to my ears.  The second disc just starting to spin!  :D

Dave,
Yes, I have both of those disks, as well as the other 2 by the Mandelrings. The Diotima is definitely my favorite, but I don't think it is because of the playing so much as I just like those 4tets better. It's like Onslow just hit a new idea with those and the earlier ones aren't as... provocative. Glad you like them though. You validate my taste... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 04, 2010, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on September 04, 2010, 10:09:44 AM
Hello Gurn,

Although I listen to classical type music from many genres and eras (my favorite probably being Baroque), I'm trying to learn more about the Classical era in particular.

The problem for me though is that I'm confused about just what exactly the Classical era really is. It seems there are many composers from this period that have a foot in the late Baroque or early Romantic eras, and the whole genre is so thoroughly overshadowed by the big three (Mozart, Haydn & early Beethoven), that few others come to mind or seldom get any attention.

I know of some Classical era composers, like Hummel, Stamnitz, Bach's sons, etc., but can you give me any links to a more definitive list of other composers that are firmly grounded in this era that are worth listening too? I probably have some of them in my collection already (I have so many LP's and CD's bought second hand I'm not even sure what I have anymore...). Also, any recommended books on this era would be appreciated.

I know you may have already given such a list on this thread somewhere, but I'm not a regular here and would rather save myself the trouble of looking.

Thank you,

Cristo, I am delighted with your interest. Unfortunately I am on vacation right now and won't be home until next weekend. The people I am staying with don't have any books or music for me to use in a good post. Next Saturday though I will be back home and try to come up with something that might be interesting (short of writing a book!). Meanwhile, a good resource for raw data is Wiki, if you look under 'Classical Period Music' they have a decent article there, and at least some composers and dates that might be useful. Being an artificial construct like it is, it stands to reason more or less that the time period descried is based specifically on the "Big 3", and many others are straddling the borders on one side or the other. I believe that in the 19th century, when "Classical" was first used in the sense we use it today, there was very little interest or concern in other composers of that time. Once the "Canon of Western Music" was devised, (and it was a bigger deal then than now!), nothing else rated any interest.

Here are two composers to chew on. Strictly Classical School.

Antonio Rosetti and Joseph Kraus.

And J. B Vanhal.

No wait, that's 3. Here are 3 composers to chew on....   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 04, 2010, 03:56:15 PM
Quote from: Lethe on September 04, 2010, 02:20:12 PM
I would've loved to be able to do something more with that thread to assist accessability, such as colour code the composers to period (with shades in between for transitional ones) but I am running out of word limit on the two posts as it is :'(

Let's give that some thought Sara. I may have an idea or 2 how to manage that. I'll get back to you next weekend. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on September 04, 2010, 03:58:00 PM
Thanks - it's partly my fault for not thinking ahead and placeholding more posts at the start of the thread, but I could just copy it into a new one as a last resort (if the current two posts hit their limit).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on September 05, 2010, 01:59:57 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 04, 2010, 03:55:01 PM

Here are two composers to chew on. Strictly Classical School.

Antonio Rosetti and Joseph Kraus.

And J. B Vanhal.

No wait, that's 3. Here are 3 composers to chew on....   :D

8)

As part of the "classicists" participating in GMG, I'd dare to complete the suggestions by Gurn as to complete a total of five.

Add Cherubini and Rejcha [Reicha]. ;D

And Méhul. And Vorísek.

There you have seven! ;)

And Boccherini, pointed out by Dave, is often overlooked; but he's really among the best ones of this period. (Voilà! Eight excellent composers... and the list will surely go on!)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Cristofori on September 05, 2010, 08:07:56 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on September 05, 2010, 01:59:57 PM
As part of the "classicists" participating in GMG, I'd dare to complete the suggestions by Gurn as to complete a total of five.

Add Cherubini and Rejcha [Reicha]. ;D

And Méhul. And Vorísek.

There you have seven! ;)

And Boccherini, pointed out by Dave, is often overlooked; but he's really among the best ones of this period. (Voilà! Eight excellent composers... and the list will surely go on!)

Thanks for all the suggestions. Méhul & Vorísek sound like Czech or Hungarian composers. I'll have to dig through my eastern European LP's to see If I have anything by them. I also have some of the more unusual and uncommon composers on the MHS label. Some of them may be strictly of the Classical era. 

I'm familiar with Cherubini's requiem, and Boccherini is a favorite of mine. Funny though... I never thought of them as being strictly "Classical", especially Boccherini, who seems more Baroque to me.
My feelings on the Italians is that they seemed to have jumped straight from the Baroque to the Romantic eras.

I guess I will have to re-adjust my thinking on some of these things!  ???
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Cristofori on September 05, 2010, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 04, 2010, 03:55:01 PM
Cristo, I am delighted with your interest. Unfortunately I am on vacation right now and won't be home until next weekend. The people I am staying with don't have any books or music for me to use in a good post. Next Saturday though I will be back home and try to come up with something that might be interesting (short of writing a book!). Meanwhile, a good resource for raw data is Wiki, if you look under 'Classical Period Music' they have a decent article there, and at least some composers and dates that might be useful. Being an artificial construct like it is, it stands to reason more or less that the time period descried is based specifically on the "Big 3", and many others are straddling the borders on one side or the other. I believe that in the 19th century, when "Classical" was first used in the sense we use it today, there was very little interest or concern in other composers of that time. Once the "Canon of Western Music" was devised, (and it was a bigger deal then than now!), nothing else rated any interest.

Here are two composers to chew on. Strictly Classical School.

Antonio Rosetti and Joseph Kraus.

And J. B Vanhal.

No wait, that's 3. Here are 3 composers to chew on....   :D

8)
Thanks for the info. I know I could have looked at Wikipedia, but it's much more fun to engage in discussion and ask some real people their thoughts. Besides, I was looking for a list of composers that are the most "intensely Classical" as possible.

Funny that you mentioned Rosetti. I recently picked up a CD of three of his Horn Concertos played by Barry Tuckwell on the EMI Eminence label. I don't believe I've ever heard anything by him yet.

I will have a listen tomorrow!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on September 06, 2010, 01:53:54 AM
Quote from: Cristofori on September 04, 2010, 10:09:44 AM
Hello Gurn,

Although I listen to classical type music from many genres and eras (my favorite probably being Baroque), I'm trying to learn more about the Classical era in particular.

The problem for me though is that I'm confused about just what exactly the Classical era really is. It seems there are many composers from this period that have a foot in the late Baroque or early Romantic eras, and the whole genre is so thoroughly overshadowed by the big three (Mozart, Haydn & early Beethoven), that few others come to mind or seldom get any attention.

I know of some Classical era composers, like Hummel, Stamnitz, Bach's sons, etc., but can you give me any links to a more definitive list of other composers that are firmly grounded in this era that are worth listening too? I probably have some of them in my collection already (I have so many LP's and CD's bought second hand I'm not even sure what I have anymore...). Also, any recommended books on this era would be appreciated.

I know you may have already given such a list on this thread somewhere, but I'm not a regular here and would rather save myself the trouble of looking.

Thank you,







You can try Leopold Kozeluh (1747-1818) : Fine sonatas , and all  instrumental works (you can
find CD of 3 piano concerti, symphonies -one in g minor is very beautifull , piano sonatas are also
very interesting. His oratorio "Moise en Egypte" is really beautifull.

Ignaz Pleyel : among his symphonies , quartets ...there are some pearls.
I don't present Boccherini and Kraus really outstanding (try their symphonies)
Muzio Clementi(1752-1832) is for me one of the best piano composer of XVIII's end,
(his sonatas op 13,25,34,40,41,50 are chef-d'oeuvres)

The Czech Vanhal, Vranicky (Pavel more than Anton)
Gossec and Mehul are very fine french composers in instrumental and vocal.
Hyacinthe Jadin and his Brother Emmanuel.
It is a good scope for beginning exploration of late XVIII°
I have certainly forgotten some otthers , these names are essential
 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on September 06, 2010, 02:16:56 AM
Just after this period , a flourish vague of "preromantics" come with the expansion of the piano.

These forgotten genius are: Hummel of course , but also JL Dussek (sonatas op 35,44,61,64, 77 ;
concertos op 49 ,63....)
John Field (nocturnes +concertos)
Tomasek (eglogues, rhapsodies, 2 concerti)
Vorisek ( piano pieces)
JB Cramer (8 cocertos, somes genial sonatas)
Daniel steibelt , ferdinand Ries (Symphonies N° 1,2,4,6..piano pieces ,chamber, concerti and his
oratorio "Die Israeliten in Aegypt")
Anton Reicha ( fugues for piano, chamber music .His ouvertures are more orignals than his
symphonies)
I have discover recently the symphonies (particularly the two last )of Danzi
Sigismund Neukomm (1778-1857)
Josef Woelfl (sonatas ,2 symphonies , 8 concertos....)
Luigi Cherubini , Spontini.
APF Boely( i have open without succes a topic about him , like Steibelt...).

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Cristofori on September 08, 2010, 12:19:47 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 04, 2010, 03:55:01 PM
Here are two composers to chew on. Strictly Classical School.

Antonio Rosetti and Joseph Kraus.

And J. B Vanhal.

No wait, that's 3. Here are 3 composers to chew on....   :D

8)
I recently had a listen to that Rosetti's Horn Concertos CD I told you about, and I must say it is very Classical indeed!

The orchestration was particularly interesting, (even more so then some of the horn playing in parts) and not just there as a bland accompaniment to the solo instrument. The Mozartian flourishes were obvious, but were distinctly different from those which Mozart written.

I love the Baroque/Classical horn concerto genre. I always feel so uplifted and triumphant after hearing them, and I can't say I've ever heard a bad one yet!




Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 08, 2010, 04:03:33 PM
Quote from: Cristofori on September 08, 2010, 12:19:47 AM
I recently had a listen to that Rosetti's Horn Concertos CD I told you about, and I must say it is very Classical indeed!

The orchestration was particularly interesting, (even more so then some of the horn playing in parts) and not just there as a bland accompaniment to the solo instrument.....................

Hi Cristofori - glad that you're enjoying Rosetti's horn concertos; I have about a dozen CDs of this composer w/ many on the CPO label.  This short lived composer (1750-1792) was actually born in Bohemia as 'Anton Rösler' - he Italianized his name in his early 20s; but the importance is that these eastern European composers of this era were just wonderful 'wind writers'!

I'm not sure 'how much' Rosetti that you own, but checkout the Berkshire Record Outlet HERE (http://broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=rosetti&filter=all) - they are currently offering 4 CPO discs for these wind performances at only $7 each - own them all and can recommend each one!  Happy shopping -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: AndyD. on September 11, 2010, 08:01:45 AM
It's funny how the eras overlap each other. Beethoven's last string quartets (and to a lesser degree his piano sonatas) have moments that don't sound dissimilar to the 20th century Expressionists.

Even cooler: I listened to Bartok's 4th String Quartet yesterday, then caught myself later, during a part of Bach's Contrapuntus 2, checking to see if I'd left the Bartok on! Just bits and pieces, but fascinating huh?

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 08:06:22 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 11, 2010, 08:01:45 AM
It's funny how the eras overlap each other. Beethoven's last string quartets (and to a lesser degree his piano sonatas) have moments that don't sound dissimilar to the 20th century Expressionists.

Even cooler: I listened to Bartok's 4th String Quartet yesterday, then caught myself later, during a part of Bach's Contrapuntus 2, checking to see if I'd left the Bartok on! Just bits and pieces, but fascinating huh?

Yes, and if you listen to one of the old-school big-orchestra recordings of a slow movement from a Bach concerto you might imagine at times that you are listening to something by Brahms.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: AndyD. on September 11, 2010, 08:07:39 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 08:06:22 AM
Yes, and if you listen to one of the old-school big-orchestra recordings of a slow movement from a Bach concerto you might imagine at times that you are listening to something by Brahms.

Exactly! It's amazing.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 08:09:39 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on September 11, 2010, 08:07:39 AM
Exactly! It's amazing.

Once I was at a concert and they were tuning their instruments and when they were done I applauded because I mistook it for a piece by Webern.  ( ;D Just kidding.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 08:15:00 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 08:09:39 AM
Once I was at a concert and they were tuning their instruments and when they were done I applauded because I mistook it for a piece by Webern.  ( ;D Just kidding.)

It was a bit long for that, eh?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: AndyD. on September 11, 2010, 08:19:30 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 08:15:00 AM
It was a bit long for that, eh?  :)

8)


(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/Apostate_2006/047.gif)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 11, 2010, 03:15:23 PM
Just wanted to re-post a 'listening thread' entry made earlier today, i.e. CPE Bach w/ the early Trio Sonatas performed beautifully - he is one of those early 'transitional' classical composers influenced by his father as a youngster and then trying to find his own way later, esp. after joining the court of Crown Prince Frederick in 1738 as the harpsichordist in the ensemble group w/ the prince being the flautist; CPE was in his mid-20s at the time!

The works on this 2-CD offering are Wq. 144-151 and have an interesting history that impacts on how the music was changing in the mid-18th century; Wq. 144-147 were composed in 1731 (a year before Haydn & Washington were born!), but were 'revised' in 1747 (according to the liner notes) after CPE Bach had been in the employment of Frederick; the 2nd son seemed to want to 'escape' the older influences of his father (and actually destroyed the earlier manuscripts).

Wq. 148 was composed in 1735; Wq. 149 in 1745; and Wq. 150-51 in 1747 - so 'bottom line', these are basically mid-18 century chamber music works (some brought 'up to date') by JS Bach's 2nd son - an absolutely wonderful 'transitional' period for me - instruments are transverse flute, violin, cello, & harpsichord -  :D


Quote
Quote from: SonicMan on September 11, 2010, 01:34:34 PM
Bach, CPE - Trio Sonatas, Wq. 144-151 w/ Remy (on harpsichord) & Les Amis de Phillippe - 2CD set (each CD just 51", so could have added at least one and maybe 2 more works to each disc) - but the music is wonderful, and into that early classical transitional period that I do enjoy -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/CPEBachTrioSonatas/1003336996_oYdK3-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 19, 2010, 08:15:18 AM
Mozart - Piano Concertos - new (i.e. recorded in 2005-06) contender at the top for PI performances of these works and likely will be preferred by me over my current set w/ Bilson & Gardiner.

Viviana Sofronitzki on a fortepiano built by her husband, Paul NcNulty (http://www.fortepiano.eu/instruments.htm) after one by the famous Viennese maker, Anton Walter (who apparently had made one of WA Mozart's favorite fortepianos, according to the liner notes).

I was lucky to obtained this box of 11 discs from the Amazon Marketplace for just $72 - apparently has been re-packaged into a small box w/ the CDs in cardboard sleeves, each w/ a different picture of the performers.  The 38-booklet that I received is in English only; there is a 16-page introduction in translation by Jan Weber; then each disc is discussed briefly by Sofronitzki; and the final pages discuss the instrument used, a number of the other major performers, and the orchestra.

For those wanting a PI performance of these works, this package is certainly one of the top considerations - but a pain to obtain at a good price, at least for me -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartPCsVivianaS/1013534539_nm8sp-O.jpg) (http://www.tokafi.com/static/2007/02/15-questions-to-viviana-sofronitzki-2007-02-08.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/FortepianoByMcNultyAfterWalter1805.jpg/399px-FortepianoByMcNultyAfterWalter1805.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2010, 08:22:57 AM
Ah, very good, Dave. Pleased for you that you were finally able to get that at a relatively reasonable price. I am curious, after you have put in some solid listening time with it, whether you feel it is the top cycle, or better in some and not in others. Now I have Bilson, Immerseel and Sofronitzky in complete cycles, and about half a cycle of Levin and a host of singles. With more choices on hand, I find it much harder to decide what I prefer. I rather liked it better when I had just one each... :)

8)

PS - 62 Beethoven's 9ths don't count in that category though. Special exemption! :D

----------------
Now playing:
Chamber Orchestra of Europe/Harnoncourt - Beethoven Symphony #9 in d Op 125 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai - Alla marcia - Allegro ma non tanto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 19, 2010, 02:38:59 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2010, 08:22:57 AM
Ah, very good, Dave. Pleased for you that you were finally able to get that at a relatively reasonable price. I am curious, after you have put in some solid listening time with it, whether you feel it is the top cycle, or better in some and not in others. Now I have Bilson, Immerseel and Sofronitzky in complete cycles, and about half a cycle of Levin and a host of singles. With more choices on hand, I find it much harder to decide what I prefer. I rather liked it better when I had just one each... :)

Hi Gurn - you've got me TRUMPED on the number of PI recordings of these works, so I may not be of much help; I do have 3 'complete' recordings, but 2 are on modern pianos (i.e. Anda & Schiff), so my only other experience w/ PI is Bilson & Gardiner.

Today, I listened to the first 4 discs of the Sofronitzki performances and a couple discs of Bilson - my major complaint about Bilson was his sound, i.e. just not much 'up front' to hear well and drowned out by the orchestra - I still feel the same, although I must say w/ the volume up and w/ Bilson playing alone, the sound is fine; plus, the orchestras are different - Gardiner is much more refined (not necessarily good) and the 'Early Instruments Ensemble of the Warsaw Chamber Opera' play w/ a lot of gusto w/ some roughness (not necessarily bad).

In the end, I believe that Viviana's set will be preferred for me vs. Bilson - I just like the effort put into this series and love the idea of her performing on a fortepiano built by her husband based on a piano of the times of Mozart and one of the latter's favorite - just so historically appropriate.  Now, if you ask me to recommend one of these two PI sets, I would go for Sofronitzki, but I'm such a 'history buff' - seems to ALL come together w/ this offering.

Now concerning the other PI performances I have no experience or comment - but if you seem to think Bilson is one of your favorites from the many that you own, then you probably should give Viviana's box a try (of course, if the price is right!) -  :D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on September 20, 2010, 01:19:35 AM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartPCsVivianaS/1013534539_nm8sp-O.jpg)

Here's a corner of GMG where for some inexplicable reason I've never posted before! No matter - I thought I'd join in Dave's Sofronitzki celebrations, since Viviana's box of goodies is one of the most entirely smashing purchases I've made in the last couple of years. Trouble is, I arrived at my position of besotted-ness from nowhere; that is, I bought  the set at a time earlier this year when I'd had very little exposure to Mozart's PCs (or anyone else's), primarily because I don't much like the sound of the modern piano. So there were two things going on at the same time - the discovery that I loved the sound of the fortepiano, and the discovery that I was capable of loving Mozart's PCs. A complicated situation, in which it was hard to sort one from the other, and still is to some degree. As I think DavidW rightly pointed out at the time, it made my advocacy of Viviana's set seem a bit shaky, from the point of view of recommending it to others.

I have 4 sets of Mozart PCs:
Annerose Schmidt with Kurt Masur/Dresden Philharmonic [Modern]
Alfred Brendel with Neville Marriner/Academy of St Martin in the Fiekds [Modern]
Jos Van Immerseel with Anima Eterna [Period]
Viviana Sofronitzki with Tadeusz Karolak/Musicae Antiquae Collegium Varsoviense [Period]

As my ability to enjoy the Mozart PCs grew, so did my tolerance for the modern piano; and I found all sorts to enjoy in the Schmidt and Brendel sets. At the time I was troubled by what I felt was a certain sameness in Brendel's 'touch' - a silky smoothness that made everything sound effortless and well-oiled, but which often seemed to miss some of the fun (I do really mean fun) that I felt was almost always trying to burst through in many of the PCs. I still feel that sameness, but I won't knock Alfred - I had his set with me in hospital for a week when I was at rock bottom, and he kept me sane during the sleepless nights. He persuaded me that no 13 (which everyone seems to think is one of the least interesting PCs) could offer a very lovely and heartwarming experience, even despite Marriner's rather slushy orchestral approach.

Annerose Schmidt surprised me at the time, and can still surprise me, by finding nuances in the music that others miss. Less immediately attractive than Brendel (her fingers seem to patter on the keys instead of gliding over them), she nevertheless seems to be able to ... how to describe it? ... change the musical direction more effectively and more sensitively. She can find momentary shifts of humour that others seem to miss. Of course I've no idea whether these shifts are implied in the score, but they sure sound like Mozart to me. I gave a detailed description of one of these moments, from the 25th (K503), in the HIP Mozart thread:
QuoteYou know the first few minutes of the third movement? The best test I could think of was the degree to which I find myself smiling as that jaunty, cheeky tune is first introduced by the orchestra,  then followed by the rippling piano. With Sofronitzki I'm smiling in little fits and starts; with Schmidt, amazingly, I'm smiling non-stop, except for a bar or two where she discovers a reason for sober contemplation, then off we go again. But with Brendel, oh dear, I don't smile at all.
(For the rest of that post see #295, here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.280.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,232.280.html))

Sofronitzki, though, creates a whole new Mozartian soundscape - but it sounds right, to me. It's not polite. Her accompanying players aren't polite either - in fact they're downright rough at times (as Dave points out above). But it's the right kind of roughness - it's Ruskin's kind of roughness, when he says 'the demand for perfection is always a sign of a misunderstanding of the ends of art'; it's Bob Dylan's kind of roughness, risky, out on an edge, driven by the determination that this thing here and now is going to be alive, whatever else it may be. With Sofronitzki playing, I can close my eyes and believe that if it were Mozart himself playing, it might sound very like this, exuberant, chuckling, and above all, vital.

The completist in me required that I buy the Immerseel set, so I did, later. I feel a huge debt of gratitude to Immerseel for his Beethoven symphonies, but I've never warmed to these Mozart PCs. Yes, it's a fortepiano, and it sounds fine, but I don't hear much Amadean cheekiness in these versions; they are (as I expected from the comments of others) a bit too polite. I don't listen to them much. There are some CDs in the set I haven't played at all, because inevitably, as my hand reaches for the Immerseel box, it often finds itself picking up Viviana's instead.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 20, 2010, 08:46:38 AM
Hello Elgarian - thanks for the previous 'extensive' post and a confirmation of my feelings about the Viviana performances; also, I enjoyed your posts in the other thread linked - great input!

I have much more listening to do w/ these works and will again do some comparison w/ the Bilson discs; sounds like your Immerseel experience ranks him below those of Sofrontzki, so together I think we've provided Gurn some more comparative comments.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on September 21, 2010, 02:00:16 PM
I've just been listening to Sofronitzki's  recording of the 25th - haven't listened to it for a while. My god, how I love this music. How I love the sheer sound of this recording. I've been soaking in Wagner and Sibelius for weeks, so expected a bit of struggle getting back into the Mozart frame, but within minutes the first movement had me punching the air with a big grin on my face. If ever there were an example of the right performers finding the right listener, this is it. This/she/they are delivering my ideal Mozart, controlled when it needs control; punchy when it needs to be punchy; delicate to the point of tearfulness (all great art is delicate, says Ruskin, and he could be describing this); and always simmering, bubbling with life, always hinting at the feeling that something is on the verge of bursting through.

Listening to this stuff can be almost painful: like having something just so damned perfect passing before your eyes, just out of reach. You just have to watch it as it flies.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2010, 11:19:38 AM
Well, I've been a bit reluctant to post anything lately, not knowing what the database had in store, but now I'll take a stab at a composer that I have been listening to quite a bit lately.

Gaetano Donizetti (1797 - 1848)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/DonizettiSQs07-09cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/DonizettiSQs10-12cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/DonizettiSQs13-15cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/DonizettiSQs16-18cover.jpg)

If I had known his name at all, it was as "that opera guy". But I ran across these disks and looked at his b & d dates, and know the performers, so I figured what the heck. Glad I did. Despite the fact that Grove's calls his quartets 'study exercises', I must say that I found them very interesting and entertaining. If you are familiar with Cherubini's quartets and like them, you will be comfortable with these. Donizetti easily handles 4 voices and uses some nice harmonic motives that make these sound rather advanced for 1819 or so when the bulk of them were composed. And unlike many other composers at the time, he wasn't writing tiny violin concerti for the 1st violin, he writes in a late Haydnesque fashion.

If you run across one of these disks, you might be interested to give it a try. I'm pleased that I
did!

8)


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Now playing:
The Revolutionary Drawing Room - Donizetti Quartet #18 in e for Strings 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2010, 12:01:31 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2010, 11:19:38 AM
Well, I've been a bit reluctant to post anything lately, not knowing what the database had in store, but now I'll take a stab at a composer that I have been listening to quite a bit lately.

Gaetano Donizetti (1797 - 1848) - String Quartets


Hello Gurn - I've had my eyes on those SQs for a while, but there were just TOO MANY - know if I bought one that I'd then want more; and if CPO boxes these up, then their habit is to keep each in its own jewel box, thus not a space saver - but still in the back of my mind!

BTW - I do have 2 sets of the Cherubini SQs and enjoy - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2010, 12:25:50 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 09, 2010, 12:01:31 PM
Hello Gurn - I've had my eyes on those SQs for a while, but there were just TOO MANY - know if I bought one that I'd then want more; and if CPO boxes these up, then their habit is to keep each in its own jewel box, thus not a space saver - but still in the back of my mind!

BTW - I do have 2 sets of the Cherubini SQs and enjoy - Dave  :D

Dave,
Yeah, there are 2 more than these (1 - 3 & 4 - 6). Grove says 19 in all, but I think one of them is this Introduzione that I'm listening to right now. So 6 boxes, yes, there's some more shelf space eaten up! I would get just 1 of them and try 'em out. Might I recommend the last? #18 is especially nice. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Revolutionary Drawing Room - Donizetti Introduzione for String Quartet - Larghetto affettuoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 12, 2010, 04:50:27 PM
Devienne, Francois (1759-1803) - Oboe Sonatas w/ Glaetzner on oboe, Schornsheim on fortepiano, and Pank on cello - my 3rd disc of this Parisian composer/performer/professor - if interested, checkout my 'non-visited' thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14281.msg455988.html#msg455988) started a year ago -  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DevienneOboeSonatas/1045473193_9u6Ab-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 04:56:41 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 12, 2010, 04:50:27 PM
Devienne, Francois (1759-1803) - Oboe Sonatas w/ Glaetzner on oboe, Schornsheim on fortepiano, and Pank on cello - my 3rd disc of this Parisian composer/performer/professor - if interested, checkout my 'non-visited' thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14281.msg455988.html#msg455988) started a year ago -  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DevienneOboeSonatas/1045473193_9u6Ab-O.jpg)

Dave, I see that you are trying to leverage your Devienne post in the Corner too!  ;D  It's a good post and he's a very good composer (if more narrowly focused than some), I hope this generates some interest. I'm not going to redo MY post though, we'll see if he takes on a life of his own! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Revolutionary Drawing Room - Donizetti Quartet #16 in b for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on October 20, 2010, 02:04:22 AM
I have bought this CD
http://www.amazon.fr/Concertos-Johann-Christoph-Friedrich-Bach/dp/B00318EDL0/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1287568576&sr=1-1
Very outstanding and bautiful music!!
JCF is less known than CPE ,JC and WF, but here with these 2 symphonies of 1791-1792 and the
concerto grosso that in fact is a very developped concerto for piano and large orchestra (1792)
we have works of the stature of HAYDN AND MOZART......really!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2010, 05:21:43 PM
Assadourian,

Looks nice! I have this disk by him, all chamber music as you can see:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/JCFBachcover.jpg)

Being such a fan of the Freiburg Baroque, I will become my goal to get this. Thanks for bringing it up. I concur with your assessment, he was quite talented. It didn't gain him fame and fortune, but nonetheless. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Kuijken SQ & Ryo Terakado - K 515 Quintet in C for Strings 3rd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 24, 2010, 02:54:01 PM
Just left a post in the 'listening thread' part of which is posted below - Franz Danzi - I own a lot of his 'windy music' which is just wonderful, but an interesting disc below of string duos w/ an ARG review - quite pleasant -  :D

Danzi, Franz (1763-1826) - Duos for Viola & Cello w/ Posvanecz & Mate (cello) - recommended in the American Record Guide a few months ago (see attached screen capture) - these are wonderful performances w/ well recorded sound; deep mellow sounds coming from these 'lower' strings - enjoyable -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DanziViolaCelloDuos/1060289570_WavyW-O.jpg)  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9.0;attach=27441;image)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on October 27, 2010, 02:13:40 AM
If you like Danzi ,i recommand this CD with his only concerto for piano (around 1800) very beautiful
music !!!!!
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PCDNOCchL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
And his symphonies
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/images/B003VY8PT0/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=301062&s=music

2 are earlier (1790' ) with mannheimer style , the following 2 (1800') are more mozartians , the 2 last
(my preferred ) 1818 , are more haydnesque but "romanticized" ( they have some similitudes with
the 8° of Beethoven).
The concerto is delightfull , he composed it for his "niece", who was an excellent pianist: there is
full wind in the orchestration and the piano is in an "fluid" virtuosity as i love .

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 27, 2010, 06:19:40 AM
Some really interesting things being posted - especially the JCF Bach sonatas & trios, and some names new to me, Danzi, Devienne - lots to investigate.

This morning I'm dipping in a famlilar pool, Haydn string quartets, Quatuor Mosaiques, Op. 33.

It will take all the will power I can muster to avoid blowing my CD budget to smithereens reading this forum!

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 27, 2010, 06:24:52 AM
After having a blast listening to Haydn's 49th, I have to ask what are your favorite storm and stress works everyone? :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 27, 2010, 06:26:44 AM
Quote from: Leon on October 27, 2010, 06:19:40 AM
Some really interesting things being posted - especially the JCF Bach sonatas & trios, and some names new to me, Danzi, Devienne - lots to investigate.

This morning I'm dipping in a famlilar pool, Haydn string quartets, Quatuor Mosaiques, Op. 33.

It will take all the will power I can muster to avoid blowing my CD budget to smithereens reading this forum!

:)
Too late!  ;D 

I had seen those Danzi symphonies and put them on my wishlist. They sound great from the little bits I heard too.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there is some of his work in this (I must come back to this again):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CNSQMMCML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 27, 2010, 06:30:21 AM
Danzi wrote a decent bassoon concerto or two.  Used to have a recording. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2010, 08:02:41 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2010, 05:21:43 PM
Looks nice! I have this disk by him, all chamber music as you can see:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/JCFBachcover.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jsI3xR65L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Being such a fan of the Freiburg Baroque, I will become my goal to get this. Thanks for bringing it up. I concur with your assessment, he was quite talented. It didn't gain him fame and fortune, but nonetheless. :)


I own just one disc by this Papa Bach son, i.e. the one shown by Gurn; however, the one recommended (pic inserted above) w/ Schornsheim was highly recommended in the Sept-Oct issue of the American Record Guide, and is on my wishlist at the moment -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2010, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on October 27, 2010, 06:26:44 AM
Too late!  ;D 

I had seen those Danzi symphonies and put them on my wishlist. They sound great from the little bits I heard too.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there is some of his work in this (I must come back to this again):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CNSQMMCML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Neal,
That's a great box set there. It was my discovery of the year the year it came out (2005?) and I recommend it to anyone interested in nice, interesting, Classical Era music. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2010, 09:11:44 AM
Eberl, Anton (1765-1807) - Piano Sonatas et al w/ John Khoury on two different keyboard instruments; a restored fortepiano by Jacob Pfister (c. 1820) and a reconstruction of a pedal piano from the 18th century - this is a 3-disc set that was purchased on the Amazon MP from the pianist.

Eberl was a short-lived Viennese pianist who studied w/ Mozart; in fact some of his compositions were attributed to Mozart until Eberl clarified the matter after the former's death.  Thus, Eberl's style is similar to Mozart but his later works are early Romantic - a short Wiki bio can be found HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Eberl); and a review of the recordings HERE (http://www.answers.com/topic/anton-eberl-major-solo-piano-works).

These solo piano works are new to me (I do own two other discs of his Symphonies & Piano Trios); of course the other fascination w/ these present recordings are the instruments used; Khouri wrote the booklet notes and explains the reconstructions/restorations of the pianos used - I've also exchanged some interesting e-mails w/ him and plan to make a more detailed post about these pianos in the 'Old Instrument' thread -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/EberlKhouri1/1065568128_BQ5iZ-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/EberlKhouri2/1065568417_4MG4N-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2010, 04:48:37 PM
Dadgummit Dave, you always come up with the coolest disks... I can understand in Gabriel's case, him being in Yurp and all, but you're a hick like me! :-\   :D

Anyway, here's a disk of Eberl that I have been enjoying for a while:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Eberlsonatacover.jpg)

because it has not only a nice sonata, but a piano trio AND a piano quintet. So I get a nice little recital every time I play it. :)  I got it on eBay and I seem to remember that when I went conmparative price shopping, it was available at Amazon Marketplace. Not for the .99 cent pittance that I gave, of course... :P  :)

8)

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Now playing:
Kameropera Antwerpen \ Hans Rotman - K 582 Insert Aria in C  'Chi sa, qual sia' for 'Il bubero di buon cuore' by Martin y Soler
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 28, 2010, 06:14:14 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2010, 04:48:37 PM
Dadgummit Dave, you always come up with the coolest disks... I can understand in Gabriel's case, him being in Yurp and all, but you're a hick like me! :-\   :D

Hi Gurn - that Khoury package is certainly of interest w/ the two instruments used - I did put a longer post about the pianos w/ pics of the Pfister (before & after restoration), and also a quote from the pianist about the initial condition & restoration of that piano in my 'Old Instruments' thread, if you want to take a gander?

I like the sound of the restored Pfister piano - not as sure about the 'pedal piano' but have never heard this instrument before!  There is a deeper resonance and range w/ those bass foot strings added - however, throughout Khoury plays w/ gusto and his enthusiasm for Eberl shows in the well done liner notes - I picked up a couple of his Hummel discs at BRO - Eberl would be a nice addition there?  ;D


Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2010, 04:48:37 PM
Anyway, here's a disk of Eberl that I have been enjoying for a while:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Eberlsonatacover.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61f8mMp2w3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Actually, I've been 'eying' the Eberl chamber disc above w/ one of our favorites on clarinet - i.e. Klocker; Scott Morrison has the single review on Amazon giving the performance/recording a 4/5* HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Eberl-Grand-Quintetto-Op-Trio/dp/B000SOME16/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288273858&sr=1-2) - I'd be interested if any of our other 'classical thread' fans might have experience w/ this recording (of course, being a CPO product, I'm sure Harry has it in his collection -  ;) :D).

Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on October 28, 2010, 06:40:43 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 27, 2010, 06:24:52 AM
After having a blast listening to Haydn's 49th, I have to ask what are your favorite storm and stress works everyone? :)
Of Haydn, or in general?

IMO, real and significant "Sturm und Drang" in music is somehow later than its literary counterpart. "Storm and stress" is a much more apt description for the music of, say, Carl Maria von Weber, Norbert Burgmueller and even Robert Schumann than for Joseph Haydn.

Anyway, to keep it in the frame of common knowledge, Vanhal's symphonies and Dussek's piano sonatas are consistently S&D.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 28, 2010, 08:40:26 AM
In general.  I guess I'll have to check out Vanhal and Dussek then. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on October 28, 2010, 08:58:43 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 28, 2010, 08:40:26 AM
In general.  I guess I'll have to check out Vanhal and Dussek then. :)
For Dussek, you could start here (http://www.youtube.com/user/PhilippeLoTheEternal#p/search), just type Dussek in the Search box.

For Vanhal, here (http://www.youtube.com/user/Meyerbeer1#g/search), just type Vanhal in the Search box.

Enjoy! (and when you have time please let me know what you think of them).

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 28, 2010, 01:27:21 PM
Some nice music here:

Bartolomeo Campagnoli: Violin Concerto, Op. 15; Flute Concerto, Op. 3/2 & Flute/Violin Concerto

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417IuCHYUCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 01:32:51 PM
Quote from: Leon on October 28, 2010, 01:27:21 PM
Some nice music here:

Bartolomeo Campagnoli: Violin Concerto, Op. 15; Flute Concerto, Op. 3/2 & Flute/Violin Concerto

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417IuCHYUCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Looks interesting, Leon. I've found it rather difficult to get much from Italy in that period, seems like the Italians were laying low... :)  I have a nice Giornovichi disk, and some of the Viotti that Dave talks about above, but lets face it, by then Giornovichi might as well have been a Brit and Viotti a Frenchman! So this looks well-worth looking into. Is that orchestra playing period instruments? 

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 28, 2010, 01:49:38 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 01:32:51 PM
Looks interesting, Leon. I've found it rather difficult to get much from Italy in that period, seems like the Italians were laying low... :)  I have a nice Giornovichi disk, and some of the Viotti that Dave talks about above, but lets face it, by then Giornovichi might as well have been a Brit and Viotti a Frenchman! So this looks well-worth looking into. Is that orchestra playing period instruments? 

8)

No, not period instruments, but very good playing.  Here's their website: http://opvorchestra.it/orchestra/storia/

If you are thin in Italian classical period music, this is definitely worth checking out.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: Leon on October 28, 2010, 01:49:38 PM
No, not period instruments, but very good playing.  Here's their website: http://opvorchestra.it/orchestra/storia/

If you are thin in Italian classical period music, this is definitely worth checking out.

Ah, interesting. Quite a list of collaborators with them. :)

And I will. The last time I worked on realizing a closing of the gap, I came up with Giornovichi. Not bad at all. So Compagnoli will help with that. I figure there have to be more in the period between Nardini and Rossini & Paganini. It can't be that they dropped off the face of the earth for a couple of decades, after all!  :)  Maybe the great Diaspora of Italian musicians to the capitols of Europe simply impoverished them temporarily. This is something that needs looked into and I'm the man for the job! :D

8)

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Now playing:
Bilson \ Wilcock \ Schlapp \ Mason - K 493 Quartet #2 in Eb for Fortepiano & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 28, 2010, 03:45:06 PM
Quote from: Leon on October 28, 2010, 01:49:38 PM
No, not period instruments, but very good playing.  Here's their website: http://opvorchestra.it/orchestra/storia/

If you are thin in Italian classical period music, this is definitely worth checking out.

Leon - thanks for the recommendation; earlier in the year, I purchased a large package of Dynamic recordings from Italy directly (shipping not bad to the USA for the amount of discs) - will put that one you discussed on my 'wish list' -  :)

As to being 'thin' on classical music Italians, my collection of Boccherini fulfills that purpose (and likely Gurn has a substantial collection himself) - if you've not explore this Italian composer of the  classical era who spent most of his latter life in Spain, then another one for you to investigate -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 04:32:14 PM
Dave,
My entire collection of Viotti:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Viottiop3SQcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51AaDGZf7qL.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51rG-0Y2BLNL.jpg)

I feel like I would like to have more, but don't really know which ones to jump on. I don't feel like I would like all of them, but that might be the way to go. It is sort of like Spohr (in so many ways!); lots of good stuff, but not to te point that I lose sleep over not having it. I may follow your lead with that Kaplan disk, it looks interesting. :)

8)


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Now playing:
Bilson \ Wilcock \ Schlapp \ Mason - K 493 Quartet #2 in Eb for Fortepiano & Strings 2nd mvmt - Larghetto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 28, 2010, 05:18:23 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 04:32:14 PM
Dave,
My entire collection of Viotti:

I feel like I would like to have more, but don't really know which ones to jump on. I don't feel like I would like all of them, but that might be the way to go. It is sort of like Spohr (in so many ways!); lots of good stuff, but not to te point that I lose sleep over not having it. I may follow your lead with that Kaplan disk, it looks interesting. :)

Gurn - I just have that single Kaplan disc of 3 of his 29 'Violin Concertos' - ordered from Amazon w/o me looking closely that it was a CD-R; thus, no liner notes!  Ughh - sent an e-mail to Arabesque for a possible PDF file of the liner notes, not expecting a return, but almost immediately was sent the file, which seemed to have just been scanned - impressed and printed out already!

Now I left a post in the 'Considering Thread' - Dynamic has released a 10 CD set of all the Viotti 'Violin Concertos' - available for $47 at MDT a few yrs ago - hoping that others who may have heard several of these discs or possibly own the box (not sure of the packaging) - but interested - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 05:24:42 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 28, 2010, 05:18:23 PM
Gurn - I just have that single Kaplan disc of 3 of his 29 'Violin Concertos' - ordered from Amazon w/o me looking closely that it was a CD-R; thus, no liner notes!  Ughh - sent an e-mail to Arabesque for a possible PDF file of the liner notes, not expecting a return, but almost immediately was sent the file, which seemed to have just been scanned - impressed and printed out already!

Now I left a post in the 'Considering Thread' - Dynamic has released a 10 CD set of all the Viotti 'Violin Concertos' - available for $47 at MDT a few yrs ago - hoping that others who may have heard several of these discs or possibly own the box (not sure of the packaging) - but interested - Dave  :)

Here's what the box looks like, so I'm gonna say it can't be 10 jewel boxes:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/000d385d_medium.jpg)

although it could be 5 slim double boxes...

8)

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Now playing:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment \ Mullova (Direct & Violin) - K 218 Concerto #4 in D for Violin 3rd mvmt - Rondeau: Andante grazioso - Allegro ma non troppo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 28, 2010, 05:34:37 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 05:24:42 PM
Here's what the box looks like, so I'm gonna say it can't be 10 jewel boxes:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/000d385d_medium.jpg)

although it could be 5 slim double boxes...

Hmmm - Now I have all of those CPO Spohr CDs (6 as I remember) - 10 more discs of Viotti - the price is certainly reasonable - guess that I'll sleep on it for a few days - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 28, 2010, 05:51:24 PM
During my treadmill workout in my basement today, I was listening to one of my many discs of the group below:

Weber-Hummel-Reicha - Clarinet Chamber Works w/ Charles Neidich on a period reproduction clarinet and the wonderful L'Archibudelli Quartet on period instruments - I own a number of their recordings and I know that Gurn is an advocate; so I guess the question is what recordings of this group do you have in your collection & recommend!   :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ReichaWeberHummelClarinet/1067552674_QwVpB-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 05:58:20 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 28, 2010, 05:51:24 PM
During my treadmill workout in my basement today, I was listening to one of my many discs of the group below:

Weber-Hummel-Reicha - Clarinet Chamber Works w/ Charles Neidich on a period reproduction clarinet and the wonderful L'Archibudelli Quartet on period instruments - I own a number of their recordings and I know that Gurn is an advocate; so I guess the question is what recordings of this group do you have in your collection & recommend!   :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ReichaWeberHummelClarinet/1067552674_QwVpB-O.jpg)

That's a very fine disk, Dave. I'm not gonna jump right out and make any false claims, but I think I may have all of their disks now, at least the ones from the Classical/Early Romantic. I think I'm still lacking their Bruckner, but it doesn't hurt me too badly... :-\

There you have it, the group that made me an accidental HIPpie... :D

8)



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Now playing:
NDR Philharmonie \ Griffiths - Wranitzky Op 31 Grande Sinfonie caracteristique in c 1st mvmt - The Revolution: Andante mosso - Allegro molto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 28, 2010, 06:02:57 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on October 28, 2010, 05:51:24 PM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ReichaWeberHummelClarinet/1067552674_QwVpB-O.jpg)
Beths, van Dael, Kussmaul and Bylsma. What a lot of losers!  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 28, 2010, 06:02:57 PM
Beths, van Dael, Kussmaul and Bylsma. What a lot of losers!  ;)

:P

----------------
Now playing:
NDR Philharmonie \ Griffiths - Wranitzky Op 31 Grande Sinfonie caracteristique in c 3rd mvmt - March of the English: Tempo di marcia mivibile: Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 28, 2010, 06:18:27 PM
I've been listening to this one today:

Works By Reicha/Rossini/Danzi
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/93/43/fae2828fd7a05a530cba3110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Taffanel Wind Ensemble
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 06:28:05 PM
Quote from: Leon on October 28, 2010, 06:18:27 PM
I've been listening to this one today:

Works By Reicha/Rossini/Danzi
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/93/43/fae2828fd7a05a530cba3110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Taffanel Wind Ensemble

That looks good! Not familiar with the group, but like all the music. Makes a nice grouping all in one spot like that. :)

8)

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Now playing:
NDR Philharmonie \ Griffiths - Wranitzky Op 52 Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 29, 2010, 05:48:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2010, 06:28:05 PM
That looks good! Not familiar with the group, but like all the music. Makes a nice grouping all in one spot like that. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
NDR Philharmonie \ Griffiths - Wranitzky Op 52 Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Yes, it is nice - and I don't know much about the group either - apparently they took their name from
QuoteClaude-Paul Taffanel (16 September 1844 - 22 November 1908) was a French flautist, conductor and instructor regarded as the founder of the French Flute School that dominated much of flute composition and performance during the mid-20th century.
[Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude-Paul_Taffanel)]

You guys probably already know about this, but I've got some of ther individual items from this series, and did not know they had been grouped in a box.  It is a good way to get a bunch of classical era composers in one shot.

Contemporaries of Mozart Collection: Symphonies (http://www.amazon.com/Contemporaries-Mozart-Collection-Symphonies-Krommer/dp/B003TLRKAK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288359337&sr=1-1-spell)

(http://i.importcds.com/200/1/6/9/1698491.jpg)

The London Mozart Players (and conductor Matthias Bamert on this set) are a well regarded classical era ensemble.  Pianist Howard Shelley has been co-director and soloist with them. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 29, 2010, 05:51:33 AM
Quote from: Leon on October 29, 2010, 05:48:36 AM
Yes, it is nice - and I don't know much about the group either - apparently they took their name from  [Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude-Paul_Taffanel)]

You guys probably already know about this, but I've got some of ther individual items from this series, and did not know they had been grouped in a box.  It is a good way to get a bunch of classical era composers in one shot.

Contemporaries of Mozart Collection: Symphonies (http://www.amazon.com/Contemporaries-Mozart-Collection-Symphonies-Krommer/dp/B003TLRKAK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288359337&sr=1-1-spell)

(http://i.importcds.com/200/1/6/9/1698491.jpg)

The London Mozart Players (and conductor Matthias Bamert on this set) are a well regarded classical era ensemble.  Pianist Howard Shelley has been co-director and soloist with them.
Those have been recommended many times, but it can never hurt to do so again. I have yet to find a dud and I think I have most of the discs (I recently ordered the Herschel).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 29, 2010, 07:24:58 AM
A piece I never tire of listening to

Clarinet Concerto in A major, K. 622
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Orch of Old Fairfield Academy
Eric Hoeprich (cl) & Conducted by Thomas Crawford

(http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/028/Music/24/af/96/mzi.memndgao.100x100-75.jpg)

This set of all the wind concerti is good.

I have several recordings of the Clarinet Concerto, but I think my favorite might be this one:

The Last Concertos
Gottfried von der Goltz (Conductor), Freiburger Barockorchester, Andreas Staier, Lorenzo Coppola

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iXKz91mRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 07:46:19 AM
Quote from: Leon on October 29, 2010, 07:24:58 AM
A piece I never tire of listening to

Clarinet Concerto in A major, K. 622
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Orch of Old Fairfield Academy
Eric Hoeprich (cl) & Conducted by Thomas Crawford

(http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/028/Music/24/af/96/mzi.memndgao.100x100-75.jpg)

This set of all the wind concerti is good.

Hi, Leon. That set is not just good, but excellent. :)

Fortunately, now it's widely available thanks to Nimbus Records:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Aug10/Mozart_WindConcertos_NI2568-70.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 07:46:19 AM
Hi, Leon. That set is not just good, but excellent. :)

Fortunately, now it's widely available thanks to Nimbus Records:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Aug10/Mozart_WindConcertos_NI2568-70.jpg)

Hah! I didn't know that Nimbus had picked that up. My (3 disks) copy is from when they were still calling themselves "The Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy". I got it a long time ago and have rec'd it several times, but not too many picked it up because of a lack of faith in the old Gurnster, I guess. Those who did universally have liked it a lot. Interesting that it should be on its 3rd incarnation now. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: Leon on October 29, 2010, 07:24:58 AM
I have several recordings of the Clarinet Concerto, but I think my favorite might be this one:

The Last Concertos
Gottfried von der Goltz (Conductor), Freiburger Barockorchester, Andreas Staier, Lorenzo Coppola

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iXKz91mRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've had that on my wish list for months, don't know why I'm waiting to pull the trigger on it, maybe hoping someone would give it to me for my birthday, I suppose... :D   But every time I see it I'm like "damn, I need to get that disk...". :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 09:30:39 AM
Hah! I didn't know that Nimbus had picked that up. My (3 disks) copy is from when they were still calling themselves "The Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy". I got it a long time ago and have rec'd it several times, but not too many picked it up because of a lack of faith in the old Gurnster, I guess. Those who did universally have liked it a lot. Interesting that it should be on its 3rd incarnation now. :)

Well, I purchased that set based on your recommendation, old Gurnster.  :)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 01:02:56 PM
First listen of this 3-CD set, recommended by Gurn (under another label):

(http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/main/images/2568.jpg)


(http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/main/inlays/2568.jpg)


The American Classical Orchestra recorded the complete Mozart Wind Concerti using the orchestra's principals as soloists. These recordings mark the first comprehensive survey of the concerti by an American period instrument ensemble and conductor. Research into various sources has produced some unique material and instruments for use in these recordings.

The American Classical Orchestra was founded by music director Thomas Crawford in 1985 as the Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy. It performs on authentic instruments, specializing in repertoire from the 17th to 19th centuries. Interested in reviving and preserving the art of playing period instruments, the American Classical Orchestra also fosters the education of musicians and the public in authentic performance technique. It is comprised of leading period instrumentalists in the New York metropolitan region.


A wonderful set so far.  :)

I have a special preference for Wolfie when he composed for wind instruments. Right now, I am listening to this wonderful 2-CD set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BYG9H6KBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Strongly recommended.



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 29, 2010, 10:28:17 AM
I wonder why they changed their name?  American Classical Orchestra is pretty bland compared to the Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy.  No matter - under any name they make great music!

I am currently listening to the Horn Concerto K. 495.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 10:37:21 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
Well, I purchased that set based on your recommendation, old Gurnster.  :)

I have a special preference for Wolfie when he composed for wind instruments. Right now, I am listening to this wonderful 2-CD set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BYG9H6KBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Strongly recommended.

:D  Well, that warms the cockles of my heart, Antoine.  0:)

Meanwhile, I can start hunting for that Hogwood disk. That looks like right up my alley. I am also very keen on Mozart's Wind Works! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 10:42:04 AM
Quote from: Leon on October 29, 2010, 10:28:17 AM
I wonder why they changed their name?  American Classical Orchestra is pretty bland compared to the Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy.  No matter - under any name they make great music!

I am currently listening to the Horn Concerto K. 495.

I agree with that, Leon. America is too big a country for one little old PI band to co-opt that way. They are New Yorkers, I could relate to "New York Old Time Instrument Band" more, I think. :D

What di you think of that odd little sequence where they have that fellow shouting out in German all the funny things that Amadé wrote on the manuscript? I thought it was pretty funny, at least for one hearing. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 29, 2010, 11:03:02 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 10:42:04 AM
What di you think of that odd little sequence where they have that fellow shouting out in German all the funny things that Amadé wrote on the manuscript? I thought it was pretty funny, at least for one hearing. :)

8)

I wish they hadn't included ALL the written comments.   

::)

But I cut them some slack based on the high quality of the rest of the set.

;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 11:05:21 AM
Quote from: Leon on October 29, 2010, 11:03:02 AM
I wish they hadn't included ALL the written comments.   

::)

But I cut them some slack based on the high quality of the rest of the set.

;)

:D  Well, since I ripped it and listen on my MP3 player usually, I only had to listen once. It was amusing the first time, sort of like the Minkowski "SURPRISE" in the Haydn 'Surprise' Symphony. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 09:32:57 AM
I've had that on my wish list for months, don't know why I'm waiting to pull the trigger on it, maybe hoping someone would give it to me for my birthday, I suppose... :D   But every time I see it I'm like "damn, I need to get that disk...". :)

It's a beautiful disc, indeed. Do you know these other two?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yKaSJWAXHrY/SPYDEjeQDpI/AAAAAAAACuk/XRJkksMMweI/s400/36_3_2.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QWyCUweTL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 29, 2010, 11:18:21 AM
I've got several books on this period, biographies, letters, and general musical surveys focusing on each the main three composers, and some books on specific sets of works, e.g. Haydn String Quartets, Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc. - but find the Charles Rosen book The Classical Style (although a very good source that I use for specific things) a bit too techinical  for what I'm looking for which is a good one volume histirical overview, with some musical analysis of the period beyond focusing on Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven.

I've ordered  "Classical Music: The Era of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven (The Norton Introduction to Music History)" - but was wondering if you guys have any other good suggestions?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 11:32:11 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 11:07:28 AM
It's a beautiful disc, indeed. Do you know these other two?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yKaSJWAXHrY/SPYDEjeQDpI/AAAAAAAACuk/XRJkksMMweI/s400/36_3_2.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QWyCUweTL.jpg)

Antoine,
Yes, I have that first one, which I bought specifically because it has the Levin reconstruction of the Sinfonia Concertante for Winds with the correct instrumentation. It is overall a very nice disk. I hadn't seen the other one, I don't think, although I wish I had. This despite the fact that I have 4 or more complete PI horn concerti sets... :D  You've already made me buy a new disk today, but I'll put it on tomorrow's list... :)

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 11:36:18 AM
Quote from: Leon on October 29, 2010, 11:18:21 AM
I've got several books on this period, biographies, letters, and general musical surveys focusing on each the main three composers, and some books on specific sets of works, e.g. Haydn String Quartets, Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc. - but find the Charles Rosen book The Classical Style (although a very good source that I use for specific things) a bit too techinical  for what I'm looking for which is a good one volume histirical overview, with some musical analysis of the period beyond focusing on Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven.

I've ordered  "Classical Music: The Era of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven (The Norton Introduction to Music History)" - but was wondering if you guys have any other good suggestions?

Leon,
I can commiserate with you on Rosen. Despite the fact that I've read it 3 times over the years, I still have a major struggle with things like "so you can easily see by this: *musical example here* that Mozart was the major influence on the young Beethoven...". ::)  I can?

I have several good books at home, I'll get back to you this evening. Meanwhile, back near the beginning of this thread, we went through a period where all the participants of the time who could read gave their list of favorite books. You might kill some time there... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 11:47:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 11:32:11 AM
You've already made me buy a new disk today... :)

... and fortunately it's a wonderful one. Possibilities of disappointment are near to zero.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 11:47:54 AM
... and fortunately it's a wonderful one. Possibilities of disappointment are near to zero.  :)

:)  I love that kind of talk. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on October 29, 2010, 01:53:31 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2010, 09:30:39 AM
Hah! I didn't know that Nimbus had picked that up. My (3 disks) copy is from when they were still calling themselves "The Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy". I got it a long time ago and have rec'd it several times, but not too many picked it up because of a lack of faith in the old Gurnster, I guess. Those who did universally have liked it a lot. Interesting that it should be on its 3rd incarnation now. :)

8)

I'm one of them and it made me even reevaluate minor pieces like the oboe concerto, which I now really like! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on October 30, 2010, 04:06:48 AM
I've just been listening to these

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.553409.jpg)

And they're lovely! Gosh, what cheery, sunny-day music. And especially as it in fact is a sunny day in London Town, this is really hitting the spot. Anything else by Jiri Benda I should look into? He seems a most genial companion.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2010, 06:00:09 AM
Hey, Brian. Glad you've discovered Benda. That selfsame disk was MY introduction to him too. As you say, great music to simply enjoy. A Bohemian trait that he possessed in abundance.

Benda was actually quite well-known in his time, mainly as a composer of church music and as the inventor of what would become German singspiel. Mozart writes enthusiastically to his father about wanting to write a 'melodram' after hearing one of Benda's the evening before.

My collection of his music is unfortunately humble. In addition to that disk of yours, I have these 3:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bendaviolinconcertocover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bendaconcerticover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51Vj3SvSw5L.jpg). I have seen somewhere a disk of his violin sonatas, but haven't got them yet, sad to say. Anyway, the feeling you got from the sinfonias is pretty much a universal trait in the music of his that I've heard so far. :)

8)

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Now playing:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 058 Symphony in F 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 30, 2010, 06:30:10 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 07:46:19 AM
Hi, Leon. That set is not just good, but excellent. :)

Fortunately, now it's widely available thanks to Nimbus Records:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Aug10/Mozart_WindConcertos_NI2568-70.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FGdxxhUxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Hi Antoine & Gurn - now I own a number of versions of the Mozart Wind Concerti, including the 2-CD bargain inserted above; but nearly all are on modern instruments (except for Koster & Tafelmusik) - this Nimbus 3-disc set looks like an excellent PI choice - thanks all for bringing these recordings to my attention!  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 30, 2010, 06:45:50 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 29, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
I have a special preference for Wolfie when he composed for wind instruments. Right now, I am listening to this wonderful 2-CD set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BYG9H6KBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartVeghSerenades/868742946_Wu5g4-O.jpg)

Strongly recommended.

I love these Woflie windy compositions - a while back I was able to pick up the Vegh 10-CD set at a bargain price, but cannot remember the source at the moment or the price - the music is excellent! Just saw that the set has been re-issued yet again - at least at MDT HERE (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//CAP7024.htm) at a good price! :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 30, 2010, 06:54:59 AM
Is it just me or that picture on the cover of the Nimbus set produces a strange sensation of "inverse" vertigo?  :)


(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Aug10/Mozart_WindConcertos_NI2568-70.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 31, 2010, 08:34:47 AM
Cambini, Giuseppe Maria (c.1745-c.1825) - first, I have NOTHING in my collection of this Italian composer who was a contemporary of Boccherini, but left Italy for Paris rather than Spain.

In the Nov-Dec issue of Fanfare, Jerry Dubins is giving a 'thumbs up' to a recording of Cambini's String Quintets (using 2 cellos); the same disc received a 4* solo review on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/String-Quintets-Cambini/dp/B003PIUCHU/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1288541387&sr=1-2); in the latter, the statement is made that this composer wrote 174 String Quartets & 114 String Quintets - astounding!  I'm assuming these numbers are in the liner notes?

Well, this has certainly peaked my curiosity - Boccherini's twin brother, perhaps?  :D

Any comments or recommended recordings (how many even exist? how many works are extant?) -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2010, 12:50:34 PM
All this discussion about compositions for wind instruments recalled to me this recording:

(http://www.cd-baroque.com/var/cdbaroque/storage/images/modules/catalogue/autour_de_l_oeuvre_de_mozart/mozart_et_les_bohemiens_la_dernieres_journee_a_prague/3737-1-fre-FR/mozart_et_les_bohemiens_la_dernieres_journee_a_prague.jpg)

"Mozart & The Bohemians - Dances, airs & divertissements" - by Vanerovsky, Domaschek, Druzecky, Salieri - K617 145 (released in 2003).

The concept is similar to a disc of Gilles Thomé called "Wolfang Amadeus Mozart - Une Soirée chez les Jacquin".

Le Trio di Bassetto
Jean-Claude Veilhan, clarinette et cor de basset, verres musiciaux
Éric Lorho, cor de basset, chant, verres musicaux
Jean-louis Gauch, cor de basset, verres musicaux et ses invités
Philippe De Deyne, cor de basset - Michèle Claude, percussions

(clarinet, basset horn & glass armonica)

QuoteAugust-September 1791. Mozart returns to Prague unaware that he has less than four months to live. He has brought Anton Stadler with him to play the superb solos written for him in the premiere of La Clemenza di Tito at the National Theatre. Right now the Bohemian capital is in festive mood!

This CD evokes his last day there, as Stadler and his local friends tour the joyful city, enlivening a dance , playing in a bandstand, joining in a singsong in a tavern and, after nightfall, gathering around Wolfgang in the Dusek house for a musical party to bid the composer farewell. In addition to Mozart's own compositions, we discover the little known yet joyously effervescent works of his Bohemian friends brimming over with verve and truculence.

A day in Prague with dancing and singing. With weeping too as the last glasses are set down and used to play the deeply moving Adagio for glass armonica
.

An excerpt HERE (http://www.cd-baroque.com/index.php/cdbaroque/accueil/disques_k617/catalogue/autour_de_l_oeuvre_de_mozart/mozart_et_les_bohemiens_la_dernieres_journee_a_prague#).

:)

P.S.: This is the only disc performed by Le Trio di Bassetto that I have, but apparently they have another interesting recordings:

- Mozart / Stadler: "Divertimenti sur les Noces de Figaro" - K617 060       

- Mozart: "5 Divertimenti pour 3 cordes de basset K439b" - K617 072 (released in 1997)

- Mozart: "La Flûte enchantée" - K617 097 (recorded and released in 1999)

- "Mozart, Prague: Les dernières vendanges" - K617 167 (released in 2005)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2010, 02:56:37 PM
Antoine,
As it turns out, I have some of those disks. They are a nice corner of my collection. I have always been fond of 'themed' albums, and these fit well with that Thomé disk you mention. The 'Prague' and 'Bohemia' disks are a set, not all the music is Mozart, some of it is also by Bohemian composers, and it was my introduction to some of those names.

K 617 recordings are difficult to turn up in the Western Hemisphere, although I think our European friends might have a good chance at them. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Wispelway (Cello) \ Lazic (Piano) - Op 005 #1 Sonata in F for Cello & Piano 1st mvmt pt 2 -  Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 05, 2010, 05:29:38 PM
Just obtained the 3-CD Nimbus set of the Mozart Complete Wind Concertos on PIs w/ the American Classical Orchestra - WHAT a wonderful collection of performances!  All were of interest to me and a highly recommended collection of these superlative works by Wolfie -  :D

But, WHAT really gained my attention were the Horn Concertos - I just love the 'valve-less' natural horn (have Ab Koster on this instrument - a FAV!) - on this collection the 'horn' is played by R.J. Kelly, who uses a natural horn apparently re-built by Lowell Greer, 1993 - well this was intriguing but what does it mean?

So, I found Mr. Greer in Toledo (my birthplace in 1946!) - we've exchanged a couple of e-mails and he sent me another re-constructed horn that he has used on his own recordings - in fact, I just ordered his performances of the same works from Amazon (pic below on right) - Lowell was gracious to send me a half dozen images of his current horn (against the red background) - amazing that these valve-less horns can even be played!  Plus, the art work is astounding - the pics not included show the different crooks that change the keys for the horn.

Now the horn that Greer reconstructed for Kelley on the recordings under discussion was different from his comments to me - I've attached a file for those who may be interested.

Well, a rather long post but this is just so fascinating that I wanted to share - and to have such a gracious horn player respond to me in multiple e-mails was a delight - a really look forward to hear his own performances of these works by Mozart -  :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartWindConcsAll/1077752157_PhPCa-S.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KP102FG9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/Horn1/1079182197_6vceU-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/Horn6/1079182211_9Uysv-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2010, 05:42:20 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 05, 2010, 05:29:38 PM
Just obtained the 3-CD Nimbus set of the Mozart Complete Wind Concertos on PIs w/ the American Classical Orchestra - WHAT a wonderful collection of performances!  All were of interest to me and a highly recommended collection of these superlative works by Wolfie -  :D

But, WHAT really gained my attention were the Horn Concertos - I just love the 'valve-less' natural horn (have Ab Koster on this instrument - a FAV!) - on this collection the 'horn' is played by R.J. Kelly, who uses a natural horn apparently re-built by Lowell Greer, 1993 - well this was intriguing but what does it mean?

So, I found Mr. Greer in Toledo (my birthplace in 1946!) - we've exchanged a couple of e-mails and he sent me another re-constructed horn that he has used on his own recordings - in fact, I just ordered his performances of the same works from Amazon (pic below on right) - Lowell was gracious to send me a half dozen images of his current horn (against the red background) - amazing that these valve-less horns can even be played!  Plus, the art work is astounding - the pics not included show the different crooks that change the keys for the horn.

Now the horn that Greer reconstructed for Kelley on the recordings under discussion was different from his comments to me - I've attached a file for those who may be interested.

Well, a rather long post but this is just so fascinating that I wanted to share - and to have such a gracious horn player respond to me in multiple e-mails was a delight - a really look forward to hear his own performances of these works by Mozart -  :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartWindConcsAll/1077752157_PhPCa-S.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KP102FG9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/Horn1/1079182197_6vceU-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/Horn6/1079182211_9Uysv-O.jpg)

That's cool, Dave, that you were able to establish a dialog with Mr. Greer! FYI, his disk was my very first PI horn concertos, because at the time I couldn't find Koster to start with, and M told me that Greer/Mcgegan might be better. I think it's excellent, tough choices there.

Anyway, beyond the horn concerti, the Flute & Harp Concerto in there is my favorite version of that work. I'll be honest and say that neither flute nor harp is my favorite instrument, and on most recordings   A> the flute is too shrill and B> I can't even hear the damned harp even if I DID like it... :D But this one is really good, a nice, mellow real wooden flute and a well-played harp that I can actually hear. :D

Anyway, enjoy that box; I've been doing for 5 or 6 years now. :)

8)


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Now playing:
Franco Mezzena (Violin) - Viotti G 105 Concerto #24 in b for Violin 1st mvmt - Maestoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 05, 2010, 06:54:05 PM
No love for either instrument Gurn! :'(  No love for CPE Bach Flute sonatas and concertos?  No love for Spohr's Violin and Harp sonatas?  Oh well more for me. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on November 06, 2010, 04:31:00 AM
Hard to think I should like period bassoons . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 06, 2010, 05:36:26 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 06, 2010, 04:31:00 AM
Hard to think I should like period bassoons . . . .

It would be perfect addition to your next composition.  Honk! Honk! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2010, 05:41:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 06, 2010, 04:31:00 AM
Hard to think I should like period bassoons . . . .

Actually, Karl, they have a lovely sound. More mellow than modern ones. If there is a drawback, it is that on some instruments you can hear the pads 'slap' when they close. Doesn't bother me, but I can imagine that others would be like "? WTF?"  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on November 14, 2010, 10:09:18 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RF1ZRAT7L._SS500_.jpg)

Quote from: Coopmv on November 14, 2010, 05:43:50 AM
I probably should add this to my shopping list ...

Quote from: SonicMan on November 14, 2010, 06:38:19 AM
Stuart - Georg Benda is certainly worth exploring - I would 'second' Que's recommendation of the harpsichord disc -  :)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 14, 2010, 06:51:47 AM
It looks attractive. How do you like it, Q?

I have a great impression about Benda's music because I have had for a number of years his complete keyboard sonatas, performed by Sylvia Georgieva on Praga Digitals. Even some years ago I uploaded one track on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/v/knvj_pNsRpY 

Jiří Antonín Benda (1722-1795), Keyboard Sonatas (Complete recording, 4 cds), Praga Digitals.
Sylvia Georgieva, harpsichord.
German double-manual harpsichord after Michael Mietke, copy 2005

I like the CPO issue with a selection of Georg (Jiří Antonín) Benda's harpsichord concertos very much: it has drive and invention, has an airy and upbeat feel to it. It is perfect "transitional" (Baroque-Classical) music, compares best to CPE Bach. The performances are wonderful, very intimate.

Note that the Czech label Arta has two issues with concertos, I haven't heard them.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8595017415326.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8595017413322.jpg)


I also have that wonderful issue with Benda's keyboard sonatas, played on the harpsichord. That was to my a real find and eye opener - a must have for anyone interested in the period. Music of integrity and true originality.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881827527.jpg)

My earlier comments HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg224396/topicseen.html#msg224396).

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 16, 2010, 11:57:31 AM
QuoteJohann Wilhelm Hertel (9 October 1727 – 14 June 1789) was a German composer, harpsichord and violin player.

Hertel wrote a great number of symphonies, solo concertos, harpsichord sonatas, songs, hymns, cantatas and oratorios. He is considered an important representative of the 'emotional style' of the German pre-classic.

That is from Wikipedia - I'm listening right  now to this disc:

Classical Trumpet Concertos

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LxSqv8RCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And the Hertel selction is really nice.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 16, 2010, 02:03:21 PM
Quote from: Que on November 14, 2010, 10:09:18 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RF1ZRAT7L._SS500_.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0794881827527.jpg)


The 4-CD set w/ Georgieva is still available from BRO HERE (http://broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=benda&filter=all) for just $24, where I made a purchase some time last year; also own the CPO disc which is excellent - nice Benda introductions!  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 16, 2010, 04:01:54 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 05, 2010, 05:29:38 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KP102FG9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartClarinetArch/691192810_oJ6kt-O.jpg)

Wolfie on period instruments - I received the disc of Lowell Greer playing the 'natural horn' (posted earlier in this thread w/ pics of one of his horns) - I believe that now my collection is up to 3 recordings of these works (DavidW - cannot understand your dislike for this instrument but as said there is SO MUCH to love & enjoy in classical music) - I've not compared my Ab Koster disc on the horn to this recent acquisition, but I must say that either would be a great introduction!

Dinner music tonight was yet again another Mozart favorite, i.e. his clarinet chamber works (also love the concerto!) - this time Charles Neidich on a 'basset clarinet' w/ the always wonderful L'Archibudelli (Anner Bylsma on the cello), plus Robert Levin on a fortepiano in the appropriate works.

BOY!  I'm a very historic type of person who envisions themselves living in the times that this music was performed - these recordings certainly add to that feeling (of course, I'd want modern medical care -  ;) ;D) -  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2010, 04:28:41 PM
My Benda collection, Dave:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bendaviolinconcertocover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BendaFortepianosonatascover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bendaconcerticover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51yRLRS1JML.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51wWkdrl8BL.jpg)

As I do with many Bohemian composers of the era, I am quite delighted with Benda's music. He always has that little surprise waiting, not predictable like some. Quite influential in his time too. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Radio Chamber Orchestra \ de Vriend  Bart Schneeman (Oboe) - Lebrun: Concerto #4 in Bb for Oboe 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 16, 2010, 04:28:55 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 16, 2010, 04:01:54 PM
(DavidW - cannot understand your dislike for this instrument but as said there is SO MUCH to love & enjoy in classical music) - I've not compared my Ab Koster disc on the horn to this recent acquisition, but I must say that either would be a great introduction!

Huh? ???  I don't remember ever saying that I dislike the natural horn.  And I really like Ab Koster's recording. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2010, 04:34:02 PM
You have quite a few that I'm interested in, mainly sonatas. I would really like to find something on Tangentenflügel, that being a most appropriate instrument for the time. Oh well, I should live so long... :)

I have a couple of caprices by brother Franz in addition to that violin concerto. He was quite a virtuoso, it seems. If Jiri/Georg is obscure, Franz is damn near invisible! :)

8)

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Now playing:
Radio Chamber Orchestra \ de Vriend  Bart Schneeman (Oboe) - Lebrun: Concerto #4 in Bb for Oboe 3rd mvmt - Rondo: Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2010, 04:36:02 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 16, 2010, 04:28:55 PM
Huh? ???  I don't remember ever saying that I dislike the natural horn.  And I really like Ab Koster's recording. :)

Oh, so YOU'RE the one! Hmpff!  :D

8)


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Now playing:
Radio Chamber Orchestra \ de Vriend  Bart Schneeman (Oboe) - Lebrun: Concerto #2 in g for Oboe 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 16, 2010, 04:37:06 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 16, 2010, 04:28:55 PM
Huh? ???  I don't remember ever saying that I dislike the natural horn.  And I really like Ab Koster's recording. :)

Quote from: DavidW on November 05, 2010, 06:54:05 PM
No love for either instrument Gurn! :'(  No love for CPE Bach Flute sonatas and concertos?  No love for Spohr's Violin and Harp sonatas?  Oh well more for me. ;D

David - sorry if there was a misunderstanding -  :-\  But after my post on the natural horn, your next response is quoted above, so I assumed that your meant the horn, but may be the flute & harp?  At any rate, if you indeed like the horn, then we are back in agreement!   :D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2010, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Leon on November 16, 2010, 11:57:31 AM
That is from Wikipedia - I'm listening right  now to this disc:

Classical Trumpet Concertos

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LxSqv8RCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And the Hertel selction is really nice.

Looks like an interesting disk, Leon. Some good players on there too. I'll have to check that one out. I've got some good recordings of the Haydn, but I can always improve the others. And Hertel will be a new discovery. I'll see what else I can find from him. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Radio Chamber Orchestra \ de Vriend  Bart Schneeman (Oboe) - Lebrun: Concerto #2 in g for Oboe 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2010, 04:41:13 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 16, 2010, 04:37:06 PM
David - sorry if there was a misunderstanding -  :-\  But after my post on the natural horn, your next response is quoted above, so I assumed that your meant the horn, but may be the flute & harp?  At any rate, if you indeed like the horn, then we are back in agreement!   :D  Dave

Nah, he was berating ME for not rating the flute or harp way up in my pantheon of cool instruments. I'm afraid we'll have to let him slide this time, Dave.... :D

8)

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Now playing:
Radio Chamber Orchestra \ de Vriend  Bart Schneeman (Oboe) - Lebrun: Concerto #2 in g for Oboe 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 16, 2010, 04:47:03 PM
The flute was the instrument that I played as a kid. :)  Just listening to a flute sonata makes me feel like I'm going to have an asthma attack!  But it's still good stuff. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 16, 2010, 05:13:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2010, 04:28:41 PM
My Benda collection, Dave:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bendaviolinconcertocover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BendaFortepianosonatascover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bendaconcerticover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51yRLRS1JML.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51wWkdrl8BL.jpg)

As I do with many Bohemian composers of the era, I am quite delighted with Benda's music. He always has that little surprise waiting, not predictable like some. Quite influential in his time too. :

Gurn - the Benda brothers, i.e. Franz & Georg, are worthy of further exploration for me - for Georg, I just have the keyboard works mentioned previously, plus the Naxos discs pictured above of the Sinfonias; as to Franz, I just have a couple of discs pictured below - BUT, these guys wrote a LOT of music!  Not sure if we even have a thread devoted to them?  Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HAK2KGH5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BendaFluteConcs/767495528_YYLKj-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2010, 05:42:11 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 16, 2010, 05:13:10 PM
Gurn - the Benda brothers, i.e. Franz & Georg, are worthy of further exploration for me - for Georg, I just have the keyboard works mentioned previously, plus the Naxos discs pictured above of the Sinfonias; as to Franz, I just have a couple of discs pictured below - BUT, these guys wrote a LOT of music!  Not sure if we even have a thread devoted to them?  Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HAK2KGH5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) 

I think we did at one time, Dave, although I haven't gone back to check the old forum for it. If it wasn't in a dedicated thread, we have talked about them someplace. :-\

Anyway, this disk I left in your quote; I want that. Steck is one of my favorite violinists these days. He does go back and play some bitchin' Vivaldi, but in the Classical era, I have 2 disks of his Schuppanzigh Quartet playing Haydn, 1 Brunetti and 2 Ries. And of course the Schubert sonatas with Robert Hill plus the Haydn Duos with Viola. So I am quite confident that this disk will suit my taste very well indeed. :)

8)

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Now playing:
King (Oboe) \ Soroka (Violin) \ Stern (Viola) \ Kam (Viola0 \ Khoma (Cello) -
Krommer Quintet #1 in C for Oboe & Strings 4th mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 08:01:25 AM
Hey guys: rec me some JC Bach! :)  Preferably orchestral or chamber on period instruments. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on November 18, 2010, 08:02:52 AM
Oh, Davey: you're corn to their sickle, now! : )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 08:14:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 18, 2010, 08:02:52 AM
Oh, Davey: you're corn to their sickle, now! : )

*chortles*

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 09:31:35 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 08:01:25 AM
Hey guys: rec me some JC Bach! :)  Preferably orchestral or chamber on period instruments. :)

Wait until this evening, I have a few rec's, more than I have time... :(  On Philips there is a Duo that has Ingrid Haebler playing fortepiano on JC's pianoforte concertos Op 1 & 7. I replayed them to my benefit just last week, in fact. You can't find them to buy, probably, but I would think they would be available to stream... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 18, 2010, 10:13:19 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 08:01:25 AM
Hey guys: rec me some JC Bach! :)  Preferably orchestral or chamber on period instruments. :)

In checking my iPod, all that's there is a disc of musc by the sons of Bach (http://www.amazon.com/Music-Bachs-Sons-Philipp-Emanuel/dp/B000001QBH/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290107124&sr=1-2).  It has one symphony (Op. 6, #6) by Johann Christian, which is nice. 

Here's some info on the group Les Violons du Roy: "Although the ensemble plays on modern instruments, its approach to the works of the Baroque and Classical periods has been strongly influenced by current understanding of performance practice of the 17th and early 18th centuries"

The other selections are well worthwhile as well.

I am pretty sure I've got the Brilliant 7-disc box also of Bach's sons - Amazon has it  (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Sons-Box-Set/dp/B000060O3P/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290107896&sr=1-1) from third party sellers.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 18, 2010, 05:17:09 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 08:01:25 AM
Hey guys: rec me some JC Bach! :)  Preferably orchestral or chamber on period instruments. :)

David - check out the CPO label - plenty of various offerings, but at the moment just to suggest a few if you like 'wind concertos' - there are two volumes which are quite wonderful to my ears; one shown below -  :D  Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachJCWWV2/381960897_Eg7dE-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 05:32:19 PM
I would love to have that disk, Dave! Time to go shopping (again!). :)

David, here are a few more. All PI, something in every category, I think;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/41A15ARNKRL.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp5cover.jpg)   (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCFortepianoConcertosHaeblercover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJC6Sinfoniasfor6Windscover.jpg)
Harals Hoeren, BTW, is the keyboardist for Trio 1790. :)

These are proven winners in MY book. :)

8)


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Now playing:
Graham Johnson, D919 Fruhlingslied
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 05:41:50 PM
Oh wow a bunch of recs!  I'll have to do some listening. :)

Thanks y'all I'll tell you what I order.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 05:46:44 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 05:41:50 PM
Oh wow a bunch of recs!  I'll have to do some listening. :)

Thanks y'all I'll tell you what I order.

Well, enjoy. I think J.C. is a very entertaining (oops, there's that nasty word! :o ) composer, way more galant than his brother CPE. Carl used to give him a lot of crap about it too, offering to teach him how to make people cry. J.C. thankfully blew him off. For my money, one brother in each category is just right!   :)

8)

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Now playing: Graham Johnson, D896b Wolke Und Quelle
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 18, 2010, 05:56:55 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 05:32:19 PM
I would love to have that disk, Dave! Time to go shopping (again!). :)

Gurn - I have both volumes of the CPO Wind Concertos - I'm sure that you would enjoy!  :D

David - just a few more to add to your considerations -  ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachJSTrios/351239069_N9Tzy-O.jpg)  (http://bp0.blogger.com/_vcIu5PB4Qz4/SFD630jfS6I/AAAAAAAAAXQ/RMm0Fubg768/s320/jchBach+op19-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 18, 2010, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 05:32:19 PM
Harals Hoeren, BTW, is the keyboardist for Trio 1790. :)

These are proven winners in MY book. :)

Harald Hoeren is certainly a talented keyboardist. I like very much one disc of Haydn's keyboard concertos under Helmut Müller-Brühl. There he plays three "organ" concertos and Ketil Haugsand -another skilled keyboardist- plays two "harpsichord" concertos:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GDNrsOPhL._SS500_.jpg)

  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 06:04:08 PM
Alright I found two on nml made 'em playlists for listening tomorrow, and in the future if I really like those I'll blind buy others. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 06:08:32 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 18, 2010, 06:03:24 PM
Harald Hoeren is certainly a talented keyboardist. I like very much one disc of Haydn's keyboard concertos under Helmut Müller-Brühl. There he plays three "organ" concertos and Ketil Haugsand -another skilled keyboardist- plays two "harpsichord" concertos:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GDNrsOPhL._SS500_.jpg)

  :)

Antoine, is the Cologne CO PI?  I didn't think so... :)

8)


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Now playing:
Graham Johnson, D 939 Die Sterne
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 18, 2010, 06:23:34 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 06:08:32 PM
Antoine, is the Cologne CO PI?  I didn't think so... :)

No, Gurn, they are not a PI ensemble... but you know that.

Although I know you do not like more this concept, IMO they are an excellent HIP ensemble playing on modern instruments. Even, I would say, one of the most successful ensembles playing Bach and Haydn.

If one day you decide to explore their Haydn, please consider this astonishing disc:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HhH2CJuKL._SS500_.jpg) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 06:32:00 PM
I also really like Muller-Bruhl's Haydn and Bach.  Dynamite! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2010, 04:18:09 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 18, 2010, 06:23:34 PM
No, Gurn, they are not a PI ensemble... but you know that.

Although I know you do not like more this concept, IMO they are an excellent HIP ensemble playing on modern instruments. Even, I would say, one of the most successful ensembles playing Bach and Haydn.

If one day you decide to explore their Haydn, please consider this astonishing disc:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HhH2CJuKL._SS500_.jpg)

Well, I didn't know it, but I thought it. :)  Thanks for the verification and the rec too. For a Naxos price, I'm always willing to experiment. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 02:31:50 PM
This morning I listened to the sinfonias J C Bach album that Gurn rec'd and the Woodwind Concertos v 2 that Dave rec'd.  The Sinfonias were okay, but I really liked those concertos, very Mozartean.  I'm not operating on a full nights sleep though so I'll come back to 'em in a couple of days and see if I still think that. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on November 20, 2010, 12:56:16 AM
I have just recept the Beethoven's piano concerti by A.Schoonderwoerd +ens.Cristofori , it's for me
a rediscover of them .
idem for Mozart concerti with Immerseel and symphonies by T. Pinnock.

About the symphonies of Haydn ,Beethoven and Schubert ,the only versions i can heard with
pleasure ,now ,are those of the Hanover Band+ Roy Goodman: very incisives and dynamics
how i like ....what do you think of this? ;D
Karajan, Geza Anda , Baremboin and other's like them versions seem to me "plum puddings" :-X
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 20, 2010, 08:41:46 AM
Charles Avison (1709-1770) - English composer who trained briefly w/ Geminiani in London but spent nearly all of his life in Newcastle, his birthplace.  He is considered one of the most important composers in England during his active years of composing and combined influences from the French, Italians, and Germans into his own unique compositions which are basically late Baroque although he did bridge the gallant style - short bio on Wiki HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Avison).

I just acquired my sixth disc of his works (actually 3 double sets) - there is an Avison Ensemble dedicated to discovering, exploring, and performing the works of this versatile and well respected composer - I'm sure much more is yet to be recorded!  My most recent recording purchase is shown below, i.e. Harpsichord Sonatas, Op. 5 & 7 w/ Gary Cooper and the Avison Ensemble on Divine - a 2CD set - prompted by an excellent review in the Nov-Dec issue of Fanfare (attached for those interested).  Also shown are a picture of the composer and the other dual set of discs that I have currently - comments and other recommendations appreciated -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/AvisonCooper/1097811620_DZYQ4-S.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Avison.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517HpDXyaYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ik8ZNiFOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Grazioso on November 22, 2010, 04:26:36 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 18, 2010, 08:01:25 AM
Hey guys: rec me some JC Bach! :)  Preferably orchestral or chamber on period instruments. :)

I have these three CPO box sets, all impressive:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wJvL92uKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4180MVMFQ2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K3F7D8T5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 05:46:44 PM
Well, enjoy. I think J.C. is a very entertaining (oops, there's that nasty word! :o ) composer, way more galant than his brother CPE. Carl used to give him a lot of crap about it too, offering to teach him how to make people cry. J.C. thankfully blew him off. For my money, one brother in each category is just right!   :)

Amen, brother. I'm shameless in my love for "entertaining" music from the likes of JC Bach, Boccherini, Hummel, Spohr, et al. (And, really, just about any Classical or Early Romantic composer--bless them all!--ultimately falls in that "pleasant" category compared to the extremes that would come to the musical world in time.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The new erato on November 22, 2010, 04:52:43 AM
Quote from: assadourian on November 20, 2010, 12:56:16 AM
I have just recept the Beethoven's piano concerti by A.Schoonderwoerd +ens.Cristofori , it's for me
a rediscover of them .
Yes I think so too.

While not in any way definite, and certainly not everybodys cup of tea, you will never hear these concertoes in the same way again after hearing Cristofori. There's very few discs able to do something like that in any work.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2010, 05:11:31 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOperaOverturescover.jpg)   (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertRealArpeggioneString5tetcover.jpg)

These are a couple of disks that are worthy of comment, both to continue the JC Bach conversation for a moment, and to bring up a subject near and dear to me.  :)

The complete opera overtures is a 3 disk set, and I imagine it to be of the same caliber as the disks previously mentioned by this same band. Nice playing here, and in fact Bach was well-known for his operas. The second time that Mozart met him was in 1778 in Paris during the infamous summer that Mama died. Bach was in town specifically to get a commissioned opera produced. If you were popular in Paris back then, you had it made! :)  It was the last time Mozart and he were to meet, given his death in 1782.

The second disk is a bit of a rarity, I don't know who, here, would have it with the exception of Antoine, of course. It is Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata in a minor, played on an actual arpeggione and with an 1820 Graf pianoforte (played by Paul Badura-Skoda). I always wanted to hear what one of these bizarre bastards (seriously, it is a cross between a guitar and a cello!) sounded like, and now I have. Very interesting. In addition, the String Quintet on here (by the Rosamonde Quartet with Detaille switching over from arpeggione to first cello) is a very nice version indeed. A disk worth seeking out. :)



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Now playing:
Janet Baker \ Elly Ameling \ Peter Schreier \ Horst Lubenthal & Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau w\Gerald Moore (Piano) - D 619 Duet for Mezzo & Baritone  'Sing-Übungen'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on November 23, 2010, 03:47:27 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2010, 05:11:31 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertRealArpeggioneString5tetcover.jpg)

. . . The second disk is a bit of a rarity, I don't know who, here, would have it with the exception of Antoine, of course. It is Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata in a minor, played on an actual arpeggione and with an 1820 Graf pianoforte (played by Paul Badura-Skoda). I always wanted to hear what one of these bizarre bastards (seriously, it is a cross between a guitar and a cello!) sounded like, and now I have. Very interesting. In addition, the String Quintet on here (by the Rosamonde Quartet with Detaille switching over from arpeggione to first cello) is a very nice version indeed. A disk worth seeking out. :)

Most interesting.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 24, 2010, 06:57:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2010, 05:11:31 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOperaOverturescover.jpg) 

These are a couple of disks that are worthy of comment, both to continue the JC Bach conversation for a moment, and to bring up a subject near and dear to me.  :)

The complete opera overtures is a 3 disk set, and I imagine it to be of the same caliber as the disks previously mentioned by this same band. Nice playing here, and in fact Bach was well-known for his operas. The second time that Mozart met him was in 1778 in Paris during the infamous summer that Mama died. Bach was in town specifically to get a commissioned opera produced. If you were popular in Paris back then, you had it made! :)  It was the last time Mozart and he were to meet, given his death in 1782.
You will get no argument from me on this one. And I guess the Hanover Band must be PI, since you are advocating them. Don't worry, it doesn't change my very high opinion of this set one whit. :)  In fact, I have the six CD set by the same group doing the Symphonies Concertantes shown above. I believe that there is ovelap between the overtures CD and the complete symphonies CD in that he reused some themes between them. If someone has both, is the overlap noticeble or is it just the occassional melody here and there? I find it interesting how composers reuse music in other pieces.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2010, 07:12:35 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 24, 2010, 06:57:54 AM
You will get no argument from me on this one. And I guess the Hanover Band must be PI, since you are advocating them. Don't worry, it doesn't change my very high opinion of this set one whit. :)  In fact, I have the six CD set by the same group doing the Symphonies Concertantes shown above. I believe that there is ovelap between the overtures CD and the complete symphonies CD in that he reused some themes between them. If someone has both, is the overlap noticeble or is it just the occassional melody here and there? I find it interesting how composers reuse music in other pieces.

Yup, they are PI, as you surmise. Very appropriate for this music and one of my favorite groups anyway. Halstead is a hornist, the leader used to be Roy Goodman who is a harpsichordist. Either way, great playing.

I would love to have both of those other boxes you mention. Have to save my nickles and dimes, I guess. It certainly appears to me reading the list of tracks that the symphonies box does overlap the overtures box. Of course, that is true of Haydn too, and probably many others. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 24, 2010, 07:31:22 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2010, 07:12:35 AM
Yup, they are PI, as you surmise. Very appropriate for this music and one of my favorite groups anyway. Halstead is a hornist, the leader used to be Roy Goodman who is a harpsichordist. Either way, great playing.

I would love to have both of those other boxes you mention. Have to save my nickles and dimes, I guess. It certainly appears to me reading the list of tracks that the symphonies box does overlap the overtures box. Of course, that is true of Haydn too, and probably many others. :)

8)
Amazon has it about as low as I've ever seen it right now ($44). Still not cheap, but just letting you know. On the other hand, B&N have the concertos set at $44.29. They periodically send out coupons for 25%, which would make this a good deal with a coupon and free shipping. Of course, jpc is the place to get it if you order enough or manage to catch them in a sale (if they have one on this) to offset the shipping. I must admit, I usually order just once a year or so with them (never more).

The overtures are 3 discs and the symphonies are 5, so I guess there is still a lot of new music either way even with the overlap. They are great discs to start the day off with.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on November 24, 2010, 07:41:10 AM
Quotetoo.

Yes I think so
While not in any way definite, and certainly not everybodys cup of tea, you will never hear these concertoes in the same way again after hearing Cristofori. There's very few discs able to do something like that in any work.


Have you heard the symphonies by The Hanover Band?




Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2010, 09:27:31 AM
Quote from: assadourian on November 24, 2010, 07:41:10 AM

Have you heard the symphonies by The Hanover Band?

Certainly I have, don't know about others. I find many things to like about that set, I suppose that makes you and I in the minority! It is true, the sound isn't all one hoped it would be, but that is nothing to do with the performance itself. I also have all their Haydn disks, sound-wise they are far superior. In any case, I can be pleased with them, they are far from my only set, and they make a nice change of pace from most others. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Grazioso on November 25, 2010, 04:29:23 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2010, 07:12:35 AM
Yup, they are PI, as you surmise. Very appropriate for this music and one of my favorite groups anyway. Halstead is a hornist, the leader used to be Roy Goodman who is a harpsichordist. Either way, great playing.

Halstead is also the harpsichordist/fortepianist in the delightful keyboard concerto set I pictured above. What an underachiever that guy is ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2010, 05:23:42 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on November 25, 2010, 04:29:23 AM
Halstead is also the harpsichordist/fortepianist in the delightful keyboard concerto set I pictured above. What an underachiever that guy is ;)

Talented indeed!  He is considered near the top of the heap in the natural horn world:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Hornsignalcover.jpg)

Damn, and I have all I can do to play the CD player... :-\

:D

8)

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Now playing:
Quartetto Italiano - D 804 Quartet #13 in a for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on November 26, 2010, 12:42:16 AM
There is a website entirely dedicated to Pavel Vranicky , i have found it by hazard...
http://www.wranitzky.com/index.html
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on November 26, 2010, 06:10:02 AM
By chance we say en anglais : )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 06:15:51 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 26, 2010, 06:10:02 AM
By chance we say en anglais : )

And yet, it may have been an hazard. :)

No, in fact I have known that webmaster for years on another site of mutual interest and he has been very dedicated in his pursuit of Vranicky. Who, BTW, is a greatly underestimated composer as well as a musician of some renown. I stand prepared to discuss him in the event someone should bring him up... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Ensemble Sans Souci - Benda, Franz Sonata in A for Violin Solo 1st mvmt - Arioso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on November 26, 2010, 06:19:02 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 06:15:51 AM
And yet, it may have been an hazard. :)

Bien sûr!

Happy Black Friday, Gurn!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 06:23:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 26, 2010, 06:19:02 AM
Bien sûr!

Happy Black Friday, Gurn!


And to you, Dr. Karl. We are having a touch of Boston weather here today, so it is my pleasure to sit in and listen to music. Haven't had a day of this quality on quite some time. Hope yours is passing well also. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Ensemble Sans Souci - Benda, Franz Sonata in A for Violin Solo 3rd mvmt - Presto e scherzando
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on November 26, 2010, 06:26:39 AM
A fine day for music listening!  I am still glowing after my unprecedented all-six-Nielsen-symphonies-in-12-hours stunt yesterday.  Quiet morning in the office, and then, I am on the cash-intake side of Black Friday at the MFA shop.  Believe it or not, this is my favorite way of spending the day.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 06:31:30 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 26, 2010, 06:26:39 AM
A fine day for music listening!  I am still glowing after my unprecedented all-six-Nielsen-symphonies-in-12-hours stunt yesterday.  Quiet morning in the office, and then, I am on the cash-intake side of Black Friday at the MFA shop.  Believe it or not, this is my favorite way of spending the day.

One of my rare days away from work, and it's too nasty to put me to work outside, so my wife has granted major concessions (for which I will undoubtedly pay over weekend). Listening for the first time to a bit of Schubert's church music. Perhaps this is an area where he departs from tradition a bit. Sounds totally not Classical... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment \ Bruno Weil - D 678 Mass in Ab pt 1 - Kyrie
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on November 26, 2010, 06:51:46 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 06:31:30 AM
Listening for the first time to a bit of Schubert's church music. Perhaps this is an area where he departs from tradition a bit. Sounds totally not Classical... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment \ Bruno Weil - D 678 Mass in Ab pt 1 - Kyrie

Thanks. That reminds me that I have yet to listen to a D. 950 I downloaded a long time ago. (Weil, but with M. Inst.) :) Never listened to Schubert's choral works before.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 06:57:06 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 26, 2010, 06:51:46 AM
Thanks. That reminds me that I have yet to listen to a D. 950 I downloaded a long time ago. (Weil, but with M. Inst.) :) Never listened to Schubert's choral works before.

Well, I understand that from a strict interpretationist perspective that downloads are not really music, so I advise you to avoid drawing any conclusions about Schubert from that...    :D

Curious to her your reaction.  0:)

8)

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Now playing:
Matthias Goerne (Baritone) \ Alfred Brendel (Piano) - D 957 Liederkreis for Baritone 'Schwanengesang' #02   'Kriegers Ahnung'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on November 26, 2010, 06:59:27 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 06:57:06 AM
Well, I understand that from a strict interpretationist perspective that downloads are not really music, so I advise you to avoid drawing any conclusions about Schubert from that...    :D

:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 26, 2010, 07:00:58 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 26, 2010, 06:51:46 AM
Thanks. That reminds me that I have yet to listen to a D. 950 I downloaded a long time ago. (Weil, but with M. Inst.) :) Never listened to Schubert's choral works before.

If that download was a midi then... ;D

MI mode: what you haven't heard these works!?  You scum of the Earth go hide under the bridge you came from!!! >:(

Joking. ;D  I've heard a couple of masses and they are very good. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 07:06:47 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 26, 2010, 06:59:27 AM
:D

Don't you just love continuity?  0:)

8)

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Now playing:
Matthias Goerne (Baritone) \ Alfred Brendel (Piano) - D 957 Liederkreis for Baritone 'Schwanengesang' #04   'Ständchen'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on November 26, 2010, 07:12:24 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 26, 2010, 07:00:58 AM
If that download was a midi then... ;D

???

QuoteMI mode: what you haven't heard these works!?  You scum of the Earth go hide under the bridge you came from!!! >:(

Yes, sir.

Quote
I've heard a couple of masses and they are very good. :)

Duh... they're Schubert! Now, join me under the bridge for stating such obvious facts. >:(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 07:15:38 AM
I suppose that bridge will get crowded if I introduce Vranicky/Wrantizky now, eh?

8)

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Now playing:
Matthias Goerne (Baritone) \ Alfred Brendel (Piano) - D 957 Liederkreis for Baritone 'Schwanengesang' #06   'In der Ferne'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 26, 2010, 07:16:21 AM
Quote from: assadourian on November 26, 2010, 12:42:16 AM
There is a website entirely dedicated to Pavel Vranicky , i have found it by hazard...
http://www.wranitzky.com/index.html

As w/ Gurn, I've also visited that site; of course his name is spelled in different ways - I have the 2 discs below and he's listed in my database as Paul Wranitzky - a 'notorious' former GMGer started a decent bio of Wranitzky HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13023.0.html) but w/ no responses - is it worth resurrecting?

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/WranitzkySextets/469182136_8vdsA-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/WranitzkySymphonies/469182132_hKSG2-S.jpg)(//)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on November 26, 2010, 07:20:48 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 26, 2010, 07:12:24 AM
Duh... they're Schubert! Now, join me under the bridge for stating such obvious facts. >:(

jeje we'll all live under the bridge! ;D  Well until MI comes along, he's very possessive... :(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 07:26:26 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 26, 2010, 07:16:21 AM
As w/ Gurn, I've also visited that site; of course his name is spelled in different ways - I have the 2 discs below and he's listed in my database as Paul Wranitzky - a 'notorious' former GMGer started a decent bio of Wranitzky HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13023.0.html) but w/ no responses - is it worth resurrecting?

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/WranitzkySextets/469182136_8vdsA-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/WranitzkySymphonies/469182132_hKSG2-S.jpg)

That sextets disk looks interesting, Dave. I can add this, for those who might prefer a different coupling with the Grand Characteristic Symphony:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/WranitzkySymphoniescover.jpg)

I have some good bio information, I'll post it in a little while. I suppose I need to see first what was posted by He Who Must Not be Named... ::)  :)

8)

PS - Anyone who really wants to hear a great baritone version of 'Schwanengesang' needs to give this Goerne (pronounced Gurn  0:) ) / Brendel version...
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Now playing:
Matthias Goerne (Baritone) \ Alfred Brendel (Piano) - D 957 Liederkreis for Baritone 'Schwanengesang' #07   'Abschied'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 26, 2010, 07:33:21 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 07:26:26 AM
That sextets disk looks interesting, Dave. I can add this, for those who might prefer a different coupling with the Grand Characteristic Symphony:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/WranitzkySymphoniescover.jpg)

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Now playing:
Matthias Goerne (Baritone) \ Alfred Brendel (Piano) - D 957 Liederkreis for Baritone 'Schwanengesang' #07   'Abschied'
Well, I can attest to this one...though the CPO cover is the nicest...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514DzLanMCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 07:36:49 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 26, 2010, 07:33:21 AM
Well, I can attest to this one...though the CPO cover is the nicest...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514DzLanMCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

:D  It IS rather dramatic, i'n't?

What's on that disk, Ukrneal? Those same symphonies? :)

8)

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Now playing:
Matthias Goerne (Baritone) \ Alfred Brendel (Piano) -
D 957 Liederkreis for Baritone 'Schwanengesang' #12   'Am Meer'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 26, 2010, 08:05:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 07:36:49 AM
:D  It IS rather dramatic, i'n't?

What's on that disk, Ukrneal? Those same symphonies? :)

8)

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Now playing:
Matthias Goerne (Baritone) \ Alfred Brendel (Piano) -
D 957 Liederkreis for Baritone 'Schwanengesang' #12   'Am Meer'
I'd have to go back to the vranicky site -it tells you there. I don't remember. I'm pretty sure there was at least one symphony overlap among the three discs. I went for the Supraphon as it had the most and because someone recommended it. I'd check myself, but I am also cooking.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 08:18:39 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 26, 2010, 08:05:36 AM
I'd have to go back to the vranicky site -it tells you there. I don't remember. I'm pretty sure there was at least one symphony overlap among the three discs. I went for the Supraphon as it had the most and because someone recommended it. I'd check myself, but I am also cooking.

Oh, by all means, cook on! I'll find it. :)

I have the Chandos too, the Op 31 Grand Symphony shows up on both. Otherwise, the Chandos has that nice little c minor Op 11 and the D major Op 36, while the CPO has the D major Op 52. I'll check out the Supraphon...

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Anton Steck (Violin) \ Christian Rieger (Cembalo) - Benda F Sonata in F for Violin & Cembalo 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 26, 2010, 01:49:58 PM
Gurn - listened to the Wranisky brothers 'Wind Sextets' this afternoon (4 on the disc w/ 3 by Paul) - I believe that you would be pleased!  :D

Also researched that Symphony offering by Supraphon - 2 discs w/ 4 works (2 are duplicated on my Bamert disc), so may consider adding that to my 'wish list'!  The listing of his works on the Wranisky Site HERE (http://www.wranitzky.com/listofworks.htm) is amazingly large!  I forgot how much he wrote when I acquire those 2 discs - may be his thread by our dubious former GMGer should be revitalized? Attached is a screen capture of the 2-disc set mentioned - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 02:06:54 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 26, 2010, 01:49:58 PM
Gurn - listened to the Wranisky brothers 'Wind Sextets' this afternoon (4 on the disc w/ 3 by Paul) - I believe that you would be pleased!  :D

Also researched that Symphony offering by Supraphon - 2 discs w/ 4 works (2 are duplicated on my Bamert disc), so may consider adding that to my 'wish list'!  The listing of his works on the Wranisky Site HERE (http://www.wranitzky.com/listofworks.htm) is amazingly large!  I forgot how much he wrote when I acquire those 2 discs - may be his thread by our dubious former GMGer should be revitalized? Attached is a screen capture of the 2-disc set mentioned - Dave  :)

Ah, well that track listing is interesting, since it shows also the Op 52 Symphony in D that is on MY other disk also (the cpo). Ultimately, I have 3 of the 4 of those. :-\ 

I checked out my New Grove today; that article from that person is cribbed from them. I don't know about revitalizing the thread, seems like our attention span is suitably configured for a page or 2 here. I'll just copy that post over here as what it is, and we can get some mileage out of it. I was hoping to have some conversation about his position in Viennese musical hierarchy as much as his discography... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Concerto Armonico \ Szüts  Miklos Spanyi (Fortepiano) - Wq 019 Concerto in A for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 02:22:41 PM
From 'The New Grove Dictionary of Music & Musicians'

Paul Wranitzky (Pavel Vranicky)  (1756-1808)

Czech composer, conductor and violinist active in Vienna, brother of Anton Wranitzky. He studied singing and the organ, violin and viola at the Premonstratensian monastery grammar school in Nová Ríše, and later at Jihlava (1770–71). At Olomouc he studied theology and became an excellent violinist. At 20 he went to Vienna, where he entered the theological seminary and served as its choirmaster. He continued his musical studies with J.M. Kraus (the Kapellmeister to the Swedish court, who visited Vienna in about 1783). Suggestions he was also a pupil of Haydn remain unsubstantiated.

He served as music director for Count Johann Baptist Esterházy in the spring of 1784 and was appointed director of the newly created Kärntnertortheater orchestra in October 1785, a position he held until 1787, when he joined the Burgtheater orchestra. He was named its director in either 1792 or 1793. In about 1786 he started composing symphonies; he was asked to write one for the coronation of Franz II in 1792. He also composed several works for the private use of Franz's second wife, Marie Therese (1772–1807). Wranitzky conducted a gala performance of his Singspiel Oberon during the coronation festivities of Leopold II at Frankfurt (15 October 1790). During the next 15 years Wranizkty composed at least another 20 works for the stage. He maintained his position with the court theatres until his death in 1808 when his brother Anton replaced him.

Wranitzky played a prominent role in the musical life of Vienna. Both Haydn and Beethoven preferred him as a conductor of their works: Haydn insisted on his direction of the Viennese performances of The Creation (1799, 1800), and at Beethoven's request he conducted the première of that composer's First Symphony (2 April 1800). From 1805 he alternated with Gyrowetz as head of the Adelige Liebhaber- oder Cavalier-Konzerte of Vienna. Wranitzky was a member of the same freemasons' lodge as Mozart, 'Zur gekrönten Hoffnung' and after Mozart's death served as a legal mediator for his widow in her negotiations with the publisher André. As secretary of the Viennese Tonkünstler-Societät he succeeded in settling Haydn's lengthy quarrel with the society in December 1797. His friendly relations with Haydn are documented by Wranitzky's letter to John Bland (12 December 1790) and by Haydn's letter to Wranitzky (3 September 1800). Beethoven's personal relationship with both Paul and Anton Wranitzky is shown in Czerny's memoirs. Weber visited Paul Wranitzky in Vienna in 1803.

Wranitzky composed 51 symphonies, most of which have four movements in the standard Classical order, frequently with a slow introduction. The public performance of his Grande sinfonie caractéristique pour la paix avec la République françoise op.31 was forbidden by an imperial resolution (20 December 1797) as the title of the work was felt to be provocative. Like Beethoven's Eroica, this symphony contains a funeral march as the slow movement, which is given the subtitle 'The Fate and Death of Louis XVI'. Wranitzky also published 56 string quartets, the majority of which are set in the three-movement format of the Parisian quatour concertant. In these works Wranitzky explored the emerging Romantic style with daring harmonic progressions, theatrical gestures, and virtuoso display. Wranitzky's music quickly fell out of favour after his death, as noted by Fétis: 'The music of Wranitzky was in fashion when it was new because of his natural melodies and brilliant style. He treats the orchestra well, especially in symphonies. I recall that, in my youth, his works held up very well in comparison with those of Haydn. Their premature abandonment of today has been for me a source of astonishment'. Wranitzky's best-known stage work and also one of his longest-surviving compositions was his first Singspiel 'Oberon'. The enthusiastic reception of this work in Vienna prompted Schikaneder to conceive Die Zauberflöte for Mozart, whose setting shows certain striking resemblances to Wranitzky's work. Goethe considered Wranitzky the most appropriate composer to set his Zauberflöte zweiter Teil, and sought his collaboration (letter, 1796). Oberon was eclipsed in popularity only in 1826 by Weber's opera of the same name. Even more popular in their day were Wranitzky's ballets, particularly Das Waldmädchen. The symphonic movement below has a series of remarkable similarities to the Overture to Mozart's, 'Le Nozze di Figaro'.

8)


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Now playing:
Concerto Armonico \ Szüts  Miklos Spanyi (Fortepiano) - Wq 014 Concerto in E for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 26, 2010, 02:55:15 PM
Gurn - thanks for posting the information on Paul Wranitzky - I may go ahead and order that 2 disc set of symphonies on Supraphon (repeats 2 I own but likely in quite different interpretations, plus 2 more) - will look for other works of interest, too?  BTW - I thought that he was born the same year as Wolfie, i.e. 1756 - you gave 1758, is this a debated issue - just wondering?  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2010, 03:02:00 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 26, 2010, 02:55:15 PM
Gurn - thanks for posting the information on Paul Wranitzky - I may go ahead and order that 2 disc set of symphonies on Supraphon (repeats 2 I own but likely in quite different interpretations, plus 2 more) - will look for other works of interest, too?  BTW - I thought that he was born the same year as Wolfie, i.e. 1756 - you gave 1758, is this a debated issue - just wondering?  Dave  :D

Nope, you're right. !2/30/56. Instead of copying out of Groves, I just copied that other post (after reading them side-by-side) and I failed to note the obvious typo. Damn, you just can't count on some folks  >:(  (myself included, I reckon!  :D )

Thanks, amigo,
8)

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Now playing:
Prague Chamber Orchestra \ Christian Benda - Benda JA Sinfonia #03 in C 3rd mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on November 27, 2010, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 26, 2010, 06:10:02 AM
By chance we say en anglais : )


Thank you prof. I would much said by accident or "fortuity"  :-X .
But i am not a danger  :D (or a biohazard ....i suppose)
About Vranicky,
you can find so the quartets Op 16 and 33 in SUPRAPHON
For the Symphonie Caracteristique , i recommand more the Griffith version with full orchestra
than the London  Mozart Players version with only strings...  (to discuss...)
By many aspects i find Pavel more energic and inspired than his brother Anton , but i admit
that i am not "aware" ( like JC Vandamme) of all their productions ; it is very remarkable to
constating the qualities of these czech-viennese composers : Vanhall, Kozeluh ( Leopold ,decidly
i am not friend with the Anton's) , Gyrowetz(Who live until 1850 ! a jurassic composer ),Stepan ,
Krommer...
My prefered are Vranicky and Kozeluh  and if you don't know Stepan , hear his piano pieces
and his piano concerto by Staier ( coupled with Salieri)






Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: assadourian on November 27, 2010, 02:25:48 AM
Some days before , i made a remark about a new CD i have recept : the symphonies of Danzi
and his only piano concerto :
It gone unnoticed ,but really ,i insist : days after days of listening, the concerto appear very very beautifull ;
the 4 last and especially the 2 last symphonies are outstanding .For some years i had  wind and piano/wind quintets  :
they did'nt "drilled" my hears ,but now i have changed my opinion about Danzi !
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2010, 07:07:43 AM
Quote from: Que on November 27, 2010, 11:43:35 PM
I was planning to post something about this remarkable disc, but I guess you've beaten me to it, Gurn!  ;D

Absolutely great stuff - original and imaginative music. Difficult to describe - please have a listen (http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=15&lang=en), but I thought them quite mature as compositions and forward looking in music-historical terms.Those who are into Mozart's violin sonatas and the likes, needn't hesitate! :) I like both performers very much. Amandine Beyer reminds me somewhat of Anton Steck, a favourite of Gurn and myself, strong projection and a firm tone, though Beyer is a bit less fierce than Steck. My first encounter with Edna Stern, but she is an outright winner: perfect interplay and great fingerwork, provides all kinds of shades and nuances with boldness when called for. I saw a reviewer that wrongly assumed that a piano was used and that the word "fortepianist" in the booklet was mistaken. No mistake, though is seems that the wonderfull sound of the Walter replica fools some and the description of the instrument is indeed hard to find. 8)

A resounding seconding of Gurn's recommendation! :)

Q

Ah, Que, glad I'm not the only one sold on this disk. I still have a lot to learn about CPE, when I first saw this I thought 'oh, someone finally transposed some of his flute sonatas for violin. I'll pass'. But Beyer's name being on there spurred me into doing a bit of research and sure enough, there they were. If I can muster up a criticism, it is this; that H545 is somehow connected to his father's BWV 1020 sonata, although how I'm not sure (there is certainly a similarity). The other 3 sonatas were already a set of 4, the 4th being Wq 75 in F major. Probably, yes, they wanted another minor key work, but for my money, the set of 4 without the outlier would have been preferable.

But I quibble when I should be celebrating, since any label that has the artistic foresight to grace an album cover with a parrot in a blizzard is light years ahead of me!   :D

Some other disks by Beyer that I like:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Rebelsonatascover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MatteisAyresfortheViolincover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/VivaldiBeyercover.jpg)

The Matteis, in particular, is a fiddler's dream. The Vivaldi is excellent as I mentioned earlier, and the Rebel is more ensemble playing, and at a very high level. This is a good fiddler, and with exquisite taste in repertoire.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Dresden Philharmonic \ Herbert Kegel 1982 - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Recitativo - 'O Freunde nicht diese Töne' - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on November 28, 2010, 05:05:13 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2010, 07:07:43 AM
(...) since any label that has the artistic foresight to grace an album cover with a parrot in a blizzard is light years ahead of me!   :D

;D

QuoteSome other disks by Beyer that I like:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MatteisAyresfortheViolincover.jpg)[IMG

The Matteis, in particular, is a fiddler's dream. The Vivaldi is excellent as I mentioned earlier, and the Rebel is more ensemble playing, and at a very high level. This is a good fiddler, and with exquisite taste in repertoire.

Thanks for the recommendations, particularly the Matteis looked intriguing! I had to Google him: a British based Neapolitan Baroque composer/ violin virtuoso - interesting, I will check him out. :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2010, 05:51:33 PM
Quote from: Que on November 28, 2010, 05:05:13 PM
;D

Thanks for the recommendations, particularly the Matteis looked intriguing! I had to Google him: a British based Neapolitan Baroque composer/ violin virtuoso - interesting, I will check him out. :)

Q

I have from years ago a nice disk by The Arcadian Academy (McGegan) of Matteis, so when I saw this one it attracted strongly. Very nice stuff. 

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/4189KVPWPPL.jpg)

I'll one day find disk 2 of this set, I think I got Disk 1 in 1997... ::)  :D

8)

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Now playing:
Amadeus Winds - K 375 Serenade in Eb for Winds 1st mvmt -  Allegro maestoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 02, 2010, 03:20:19 PM
Has somebody heard before the name "Michael Cave"? Apparently, he was an American pianist highly interested in Mozart.

Today I was listening to a disc on NML ("Orion", quite old, I'd say), where Cave plays very, very nicely some Mozart (K. 333, 398, 31 & 540) on a beautiful fortepiano. But on Internet there is almost no information about him/it and that disc -"presented by the Yehudi Menuhin Foundation" (!)- looks rather interesting. :)

 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2010, 03:51:50 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 02, 2010, 03:20:19 PM
Has somebody heard before the name "Michael Cave"? Apparently, he was an American pianist highly interested in Mozart.

Today I was listening to a disc on NML ("Orion", quite old, I'd say), where Cave plays very, very nicely some Mozart (K. 333, 398, 31 & 540) on a beautiful fortepiano. But on Internet there is almost no information about him/it and that disc -"presented by the Yehudi Menuhin Foundation" (!)- looks rather interesting. :)

Not I. Something to look into though. Hard to think about Sir Yehudi doing PI... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Sinfonia Finlandia Jyvaskyla \ Patrick Gallois - Kraus Incidental music to 'Aeneas in Carthage' pt 04 - Act I, Overture
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on December 02, 2010, 09:25:43 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2010, 03:51:50 PM
Hard to think about Sir Yehudi doing PI... :)

Haven't you listened to his Bartók? ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2010, 04:18:03 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 02, 2010, 09:25:43 PM
Haven't you listened to his Bartók? ;)

My apologies; I overlooked that one!  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 04, 2010, 07:39:38 AM
Rolla, Alessandro (1757-1841) - born in Pavia, Italy a year after Wolfie; he was a violin & viola virtuoso, composer, and teacher (including Paganini).  He was offered the position of director of the La Scala orchestra in Milan in 1802, and remained in that position until 1833.  A fuller Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Rolla)!

He wrote over 500 compositions, mostly chamber works, symphonies, and concertos for violin and viola. I just acquired my first disc of this composer (pic below), which are Viola Concertos; 3 works designated as BI. 541, 543, & 547 - his thematic catalog was published in 1981 by Luigi Inzaghi and Luigi Alberto Bianchi, so BI = Bianchi & Inzaghi.

Harry has made comments in the listening thread on a multi-disc set of Rolla's chamber works. On the Viola Concertos, the performer is Fabrizio Merlini w/ Bruno conducting the Orchestra del Conservatorio di La Spezia - the performances are just excellent and the Tactus production team has done a great job in recording these performances!  Will certainly like to acquire some more Rolla - :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/RollaViolaConcs/1113112561_VvHU6-O.jpg)  (http://www.viola-in-music.com/images/Alessandro-Rolla3.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2010, 07:51:15 AM
Hey, Dave,
Well, you anticipated me. I recently got a couple of Rolla disks and was quite pleased with them. Thought he would be a good choice for The Corner.

These are my two, chamber works as you requested:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RollaTrioscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RollaOp15StringDuoscover.jpg)

This is very enjoyable music, and proof that classicism indeed made it to Italy and also that someone actually stayed there! :o

One little tidbit that your bio didn't have: Rolla was Paganini's first violin teacher. I think Nicky was 14 when he went to Rolla, who was famous as a violinist, but actually as the premier violist in the country.

Everyone should have at least 1 disk of his music. No disappointments here. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 04, 2010, 10:32:03 AM
Hi Gurn - well as I was off the forum and you were posting on Rolla, I put in a small order on the Amazon Marketplace which included the offerings below:

Rolla, Alessandro - Chamber Works w/ Ruggero Marchesi et al - 4-CD set; Harry recommendation!

Rolla, Alessandro - Flute Quartets w/ Mario Carbotta et al on Tactus - :)

The track listing for the box set in listed HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Chamber-Music-Duets-Trios-Quartets/dp/B00001QEFY/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291490625&sr=1-8) - Violin/Viola Duets, SQs, Trios, & Violin/Piano works - a Harry rave in the listening thread a while back - just $20 from an Amazon marketer - seemed to have been the ONLY copy available!  Dave

(http://www.ruggeromarchesi.it/immagini/discografia/disco010a.gif)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xYcR-OcKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2010, 10:43:32 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2010, 03:51:50 PM
Not I. Something to look into though. Hard to think about Sir Yehudi doing PI... :)

It's a complete mystery, although it's possible to download that disc here:

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=1034907
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2010, 01:28:11 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 04, 2010, 10:32:03 AM
Hi Gurn - well as I was off the forum and you were posting on Rolla, I put in a small order on the Amazon Marketplace which included the offerings below:

Rolla, Alessandro - Chamber Works w/ Ruggero Marchesi et al - 4-CD set; Harry recommendation!

Rolla, Alessandro - Flute Quartets w/ Mario Carbotta et al on Tactus - :)

The track listing for the box set in listed HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Chamber-Music-Duets-Trios-Quartets/dp/B00001QEFY/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1291490625&sr=1-8) -
QuoteViolin/Viola Duets, SQs, Trios,
& Violin/Piano works[/i] - a Harry rave in the listening thread a while back - just $20 from an Amazon marketer - seemed to have been the ONLY copy available!  Dave

(http://www.ruggeromarchesi.it/immagini/discografia/disco010a.gif)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xYcR-OcKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Aha! OK, well I would guess that
QuoteViolin/Viola Duets, ... Trios,....
are the same works that the 2 disks I posted have. String quartets sound interesting. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Cristophe Rousset (Cembalo) - Scarlatti K 140 Sonata in D for Clavier - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2010, 01:33:22 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 04, 2010, 10:43:32 AM
It's a complete mystery, although it's possible to download that disc here:

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=1034907

Well, Antoine, he appears to have been concurrent with the fortepiano, the keyboard of his tender youth...   (http://cdn.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/LAN0266.gif) :D  Still, we'll keep an eye out. Never know, stuff that comes up on eBay can be a total surprise sometimes.

8)

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Now playing:
Cristophe Rousset (Cembalo) - Scarlatti K 141 Sonata in d for Clavier - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 08, 2010, 03:44:48 PM

Rolla, Alessandro - today received the CD packages shown below discussed earlier - listening to the Flute Quartets at the moment; composition dates unclear from the liner notes, but just melodious composing w/ well integrated strings - the flute is quite up front (Tactus seems to be quite good in their sound engineering) - if you like the flute combined w/ strings, then this disc will not disappoint!  :)

The other offering is a 4-disc set (comes in a compact 2-CD jewel box w/ good liner notes) - the first disc comprises Violin-Viola Duets which are wonderfully complex; Rolla was considered a virtuoso w/ these instruments and one of the best of his time - he also was innovative in introducing string techniques which were expanded upon by the likes of Paganini (one of his students).  The second disc is of 3 String Quartets - again excellent compositions, performances, and recorded sound - these are definitely transitional between the classical-romantic eras, i.e. late Wofie-early Ludwig? But the disc is just an enjoyable listen - keep in mind that for just over 30 yrs, this guy was the head of the La Scala orchestra in Milan - his job was to please the audience - I think this carries over into his compositions - all that I've heard to date (not that much considering his extensive output) fulfill that promise - Rolla is another of the 'lost ones' worth exploring - :D

QuoteRolla, Alessandro (1757-1841) - Chamber Music - 4-disc set w/ Ruggero Marchesi et al - just listened to the first 2 CDs today, i.e. Violin-Viola Duets & String Quartets and Flute Quartets w/ Mario Carbotta on flute & the Quartetto Erasmus - for those interested, there has been some discussion of this composer in Gurn's classical thread -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/RollaChamber4CDs/1119549979_EPvPp-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/RollaFluteQuartets/1119550003_HJbA2-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2010, 04:02:17 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 08, 2010, 03:44:48 PM
Rolla, Alessandro - today received the CD packages shown below discussed earlier - listening to the Flute Quartets at the moment; composition dates unclear from the liner notes, but just melodious composing w/ well integrated strings - the flute is quite up front (Tactus seems to be quite good in their sound engineering) - if you like the flute combined w/ strings, then this disc will not disappoint!  :)

The other offering is a 4-disc set (comes in a compact 2-CD jewel box w/ good liner notes) - the first disc comprises Violin-Viola Duets which are wonderfully complex; Rolla was considered a virtuoso w/ these instruments and one of the best of his time - he also was innovative in introducing string techniques which were expanded upon by the likes of Paganini (one of his students).  The second disc is of 3 String Quartets - again excellent compositions, performances, and recorded sound - these are definitely transitional between the classical-romantic eras, i.e. late Wofie-early Ludwig? But the disc is just an enjoyable listen - keep in mind that for just over 30 yrs, this guy was the head of the La Scala orchestra in Milan - his job was to please the audience - I think this carries over into his compositions - all that I've heard to date (not that much considering his extensive output) fulfill that promise - Rolla is another of the 'lost ones' worth exploring - :D

Hey Dave,
Those look interesting, particularly the box set. I double checked, of course, and indeed, you DID get the last one... :-\

I got this one today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RollaConcertoscover.jpg)

and am listening now to the Basset Horn Concerto. Quite unusual to find one, not by Mozart or Stadler! It's really quite good, it has a distinctly Viennese feel to it, although Rolla was purely Italian. :)

I saw that you also got your Reicha disk today. Mine should be here tomorrow or Friday. We need to compare notes. :)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Milan Chamber Orchestra \ Caldi  Carbotta (Flute) - Zanchietta (Basset Horn) - Rolla Concerto in F for Basset Horn 2nd mvmt - Largo sostenuto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2010, 04:29:06 PM
Oh, Dave, here's another disk I got today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/EdelmannKeyboardQuartetscover.jpg)

I can't remember if we have ever discussed Edelman or not. I have some keyboard sonatas of him, but that's about it. Anyway, these piano quartets are driven by Spányi on the tangentenflügel, and you can barely make out that down in the bottom left corner, that little tag says "Tangent Piano Collection", which leads me to believe that maybe there is a series of disks from that era which need to be looked into. My experience with Hungaroton hasn't been too extensive, but I'll see what I can find. I was thinking that you might be interested in this too... :)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Consortium Classicum - Hoffmeister Parthia in d for Wind Sextet 2nd mvmt - Menuetto I
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on December 08, 2010, 10:45:02 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2010, 04:29:06 PM
[...] that little tag says "Tangent Piano Collection", which leads me to believe that maybe there is a series of disks from that era which need to be looked into. My experience with Hungaroton hasn't been too extensive, but I'll see what I can find. I was thinking that you might be interested in this too... :)

Here you go, Gurn, eight discs in total:

http://miklosspanyi.de/miklos_spanyi_discography.html#tangent_piano_collection

Q :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2010, 04:20:43 AM
Quote from: Que on December 08, 2010, 10:45:02 PM
Here you go, Gurn, eight discs in total:

http://miklosspanyi.de/miklos_spanyi_discography.html#tangent_piano_collection

Q :)

Q,
Hey, thanks for doing the hard work! I want 'em... Hopefully I'm not going to discover that the hard work (finding them for sale) is yet to be done. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 09, 2010, 05:10:27 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2010, 04:29:06 PM
Oh, Dave, here's another disk I got today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/EdelmannKeyboardQuartetscover.jpg)  (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RollaConcertoscover.jpg)

I can't remember if we have ever discussed Edelman or not. I have some keyboard sonatas of him, but that's about it. Anyway, these piano quartets are driven by Spányi on the tangentenflügel, and you can barely make out that down in the bottom left corner, that little tag says "Tangent Piano Collection", which leads me to believe that maybe there is a series of disks from that era which need to be looked into. My experience with Hungaroton hasn't been too extensive, but I'll see what I can find. I was thinking that you might be interested in this too... :)


Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2010, 04:02:17 PM
Hey Dave,
Those look interesting, particularly the box set. I double checked, of course, and indeed, you DID get the last one... :-\

I got this one today: RE: Rolla - pic put above!

and am listening now to the Basset Horn Concerto. Quite unusual to find one, not by Mozart or Stadler! It's really quite good, it has a distinctly Viennese feel to it, although Rolla was purely Italian. :)

I saw that you also got your Reicha disk today. Mine should be here tomorrow or Friday. We need to compare notes. :)


Hey Gurn - that Rolla disc would nicely complement my 'small' collection but was listed @ $100 on the Amazon MP - yipes; you must have found a bargain site?  Let us know your thoughts - I've listened to only half of that box but expect that the last 2 discs will be just as fine - believe that you would like the SQs -  :D

I have that Edelmann disc (can't remember if it showed up on BRO - not there now) and enjoy - will have to give it another spin - have just a small number of CDs w/ Spanyi on the tangent piano - like the instrument!

Love the cello works w/ Bylsma on the Reicha disc - my 'used' copy came in pristine shape and played fine (x3 now!) - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on December 12, 2010, 12:42:32 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2010, 04:20:43 AM
Q,
Hey, thanks for doing the hard work! I want 'em... Hopefully I'm not going to discover that the hard work (finding them for sale) is yet to be done. :D

8)

;D Gurn, I won't deny that actually finding them might be the real challenge here. :) Hungaroton is rather exotic but maybe a tiny bit more easily available then Arcana or Naïve! ;D

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on December 14, 2010, 06:07:00 AM
This is a bit OT - but since most of my collection falls within the Classical Corner, I'm posting it anyway.

I am about to embark on a major re-tagging effort for my music library, the gist of which will be changing the year field from "year of recording" to "year of composition". 

Yes, this will entail a tedious process of highlighting the tracks that make up a piece and then changing the date - but when I'm done, and I expect this to take no more than a month - I will be able to call up nothing but works composed in , say, 1791, and that prospect has me salivating with anticipation of how enjoyable that will be for me. (A side benefit will be that I will learn the compositon dates for the much of the Classical period music, which is not a bad thing.)

And yes, I do have a life, and in fact, with some serious demands on my time - but this process is relaxing (in a librarian - which I am - kind of way) and gets my mind off other more pressing issues.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2010, 06:23:15 AM
Quote from: Leon on December 14, 2010, 06:07:00 AM
This is a bit OT - but since most of my collection falls within the Classical Corner, I'm posting it anyway.

I am about to embark on a major re-tagging effort for my music library, the gist of which will be changing the year field from "year of recording" to "year of composition". 

Yes, this will entail a tedious process of highlighting the tracks that make up a piece and then changing the date - but when I'm done, and I expect this to take no more than a month - I will be able to call up nothing but works composed in , say, 1791, and that prospect has me salivating with anticipation of how enjoyable that will be for me. (A side benefit will be that I will learn the compositon dates for the much of the Classical period music, which is not a bad thing.)

And yes, I do have a life, and in fact, with some serious demands on my time - but this process is relaxing (in a librarian - which I am - kind of way) and gets my mind off other more pressing issues.

:)

That's interesting, Leon. If you enjoy researching (and have the books to look in!) this will be a great project for you.

About 6 years ago I decided to try to collect the complete works of Mozart. BTW, I rip everything so ordering the files and tags is vital. With Mozart it turned out to be easy, I used the latest Köchel numbers which are allegedly chronological, and it all turned out well. I can click anywhere on the list and get a great variety of different genres played in succession. In short, it was just right for me.

So I did Beethoven. I used the Biamonti catalog which is also chronological and there again, the listening experience was just what I was hoping for.

So then, Haydn. A whole different kettle of fish, since there is nothing chronological about the Hoboken catalog. So this is what I did. Maybe it can be of some help to you.

I made a series of folders starting with the earliest composition (1749, a mass) through the last of them (1804 IIRC). Then as I was able to identify the year of composition, I moved the files into the right folder. In addition, when I was tagging, in the "ALBUM" field, I put just the year there.

In any given year, the first things to play will be symphonies, then overtures, divertimentos, string quartets etc. I most generally play a year at a time and it is a very enjoyable listening experience for me, which is all I ask out of life.

I am considering expanding that idea to other composers. So I will be keenly interested on how you progress. Keep in touch, please. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on December 14, 2010, 06:26:16 AM
I use the higgledy piggledy system.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2010, 06:27:10 AM
Quote from: Sackbut on December 14, 2010, 06:26:16 AM
I use the higgledy piggledy system.

But you aren't anal...  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: MN Dave on December 14, 2010, 06:27:39 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2010, 06:27:10 AM
But you aren't anal...  0:)

8)

Am too! Just not about everything.  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 18, 2010, 03:29:42 PM
Well, I tacked on a Helios disc to a BRO order to save shipping - a new composer to me (but not in his time!):

Arne, Thomas (1710-1778) - English composer pretty much a contemporary w/ the Papa Bach sons; he was mainly a composer of stage works w/ a limited instrumental output, but which was in that wonderful 'transitional period' of the mid-18th century - a Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Arne), and a listing of his many compositions HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Thomas_Arne) -  :)

His fame seems to rest mainly on his MANY non-instrumental works, but he did write Rule, Britannia!, a version of God Save the King, and A-Hunting We Will Go (and likely other familiar songs?) - the disc that I purchased was his Keyboard Concertos w/ Paul Nicholson & the Parley of Instruments - there are 6 works on the recording, each in 3-4 movements and recorded w/ 3 period keyboards, i.e. organ, harpsichord, and fortepiano - this is a fascinating offering; the harpsichord could have been miked a little closer for me but the balance is done quite well (recording engineer was Tony Faulkner).

In looking at Arne's compositions and reviewing other recordings on Amazon, there are additional instrumental offerings (not sure that I have much interest in his vocal stage works), such as overtures, symphonies, and trio sonatas - any comments or suggestions?  Thanks all - Dave  :D



(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ArneConcertos/1128426081_bMq3s-O.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Thomas_Augustine_Arne.png/220px-Thomas_Augustine_Arne.png)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on December 18, 2010, 04:28:59 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 18, 2010, 03:29:42 PM
Well, I tacked on a Helios disc to a BRO order to save shipping - a new composer to me (but not in his time!):

Arne, Thomas (1710-1778) - English composer pretty much a contemporary w/ the Papa Bach sons; he was mainly a composer of stage works w/ a limited instrumental output, but which was in that wonderful 'transitional period' of the mid-18th century - a Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Arne), and a listing of his many compositions HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Thomas_Arne) -  :)

His fame seems to rest mainly on his MANY non-instrumental works, but he did write Rule, Britannia!, a version of God Save the King, and A-Hunting We Will Go (and likely other familiar songs?) - the disc that I purchased was his Keyboard Concertos w/ Paul Nicholson & the Parley of Instruments - there are 6 works on the recording, each in 3-4 movements and recorded w/ 3 period keyboards, i.e. organ, harpsichord, and fortepiano - this is a fascinating offering; the harpsichord could have been miked a little closer for me but the balance is done quite well (recording engineer was Tony Faulkner).

In looking at Arne's compositions and reviewing other recordings on Amazon, there are additional instrumental offerings (not sure that I have much interest in his vocal stage works), such as overtures, symphonies, and trio sonatas - any comments or suggestions?  Thanks all - Dave  :D



(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ArneConcertos/1128426081_bMq3s-O.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Thomas_Augustine_Arne.png/220px-Thomas_Augustine_Arne.png)

I have this disc (my only Arne recording, so I can't make any other suggestions). I would expect you to consider it a worthwhile purchase.  "Stately" would be a word I might use to describe his music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2010, 02:28:31 PM
Somewhere recently in discussion about fortepianists, I mentioned (to Antoine?) how highly I thought of Malcolm Bilson at the keyboard. Actually, Bilson's recorded legacy (hopefully not yet complete) contains a lot more than one can find with just casual looking around. I just acquired this example which I didn't even know existed until it was offered to me. Now, Vermeulen and Badura-Skoda are going to have a bit of competition!  :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertBilsoncover1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertBilsoncover2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertBilsoncover3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertBilsoncover4.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertBilsoncover5.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertBilsoncover6.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertBilsoncover7.jpg)

Suffice to say I am looking forward to spending a bit of my Christmas holiday with these fellows. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on December 22, 2010, 03:48:08 PM
Quote from: Leon on December 14, 2010, 06:07:00 AM
(in a librarian - which I am - kind of way)
Who digs period instrument performances of Beethoven and Haydn as well as Brazilian music.  Cool beans!  Where do you practice your trade?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 22, 2010, 05:14:53 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2010, 02:28:31 PM
Somewhere recently in discussion about fortepianists, I mentioned (to Antoine?) how highly I thought of Malcolm Bilson at the keyboard. Actually, Bilson's recorded legacy (hopefully not yet complete) contains a lot more than one can find with just casual looking around. I just acquired this example which I didn't even know existed until it was offered to me. Now, Vermeulen and Badura-Skoda are going to have a bit of competition!  :)


Gurn - MY GOD - did you order all of those Hungaroton discs individually or is there a BOX?  :o

Plus, thought that you already had Paul Badura-Skoda in these works (as I do) - now if you have BOTH sets, I'll be looking forward to your comparisons!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2010, 05:21:08 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 22, 2010, 05:14:53 PM
Gurn - MY GOD - did you order all of those Hungaroton discs individually or is there a BOX?  :o

Plus, thought that you already had Paul Badura-Skoda in these works (as I do) - now if you have BOTH sets, I'll be looking forward to your comparisons!  Dave  :D

Bought them from a private individual, Dave. Reasonable price was offered for 7 individual disks. Couldn't refuse, didn't want a horse's head in my bed... :D

Yes, I have Badura-Skoda, and Jan Vermuelen too. Picking and choosing amongst the bunch will be very difficult, but hey, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 23, 2010, 05:49:58 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 22, 2010, 05:14:53 PM
...or is there a BOX?  :o

Yes, Sonic, it exists a boxset. It usually costs near to $100 or something like that...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 23, 2010, 07:01:49 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2010, 05:21:08 PM
Bought them from a private individual, Dave. Reasonable price was offered for 7 individual disks. Couldn't refuse, didn't want a horse's head in my bed... :D

Yes, I have Badura-Skoda, and Jan Vermuelen too. Picking and choosing amongst the bunch will be very difficult, but hey, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.... :D

Gurn & Antoine - thanks for the comments - figured that Gurn would find a good deal on the individual disks -  ;D

I did search Amazon USA and found the box mentioned, i.e. 7 discs from 3 Market Place merchants w/ the least expensive about $80 - looking forward to Gurn's comaparison comments w/ the other fortepiano sets, of course, would enjoy comments from other who have heard two or all three of these PIs recordings - thanks all!  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512bYFNu3WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 23, 2010, 07:19:34 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 23, 2010, 07:01:49 AM
... looking forward to Gurn's comaparison comments w/ the other fortepiano sets, of course, would enjoy comments from other who have heard two or all three of these PIs recordings - thanks all!  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512bYFNu3WL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

IMO, all three are mandatory, but I soppose that's not very useful  ;D, although I have purchased just two discs by Vermeulen because they are extremely expensive. BTW, Leonhardt (*) also recorded an interesting cycle dedicated to Schubert's solo piano music (unfortunately, I have just one of them).

(*) Trudelies, sister of Gustav.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 23, 2010, 08:28:49 AM
QuoteMozart, WA - Piano Sonatas w/ Alexei Lubimov on fortepiano; listening to the last disc of PS 15-18 - coming up next is Ronald Brautigam playing the same pieces on his fortepiano just for comparison -  :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartLubimov/1131138489_NfUGF-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozatBrautigam/1135372157_KcLBg-O.jpg)

Above is a post that I just left in the 'listening thread' - now own two sets of Wolfie's Piano Sonatas on fortepiano and just wanted to do a little comparison - using the last disc of each set which contains the same works.

Concerning the instruments, Lubimov is using one by Christopher Clarke from 1986 based on an original by Anton Walter, around c. 1795; Brautigam is playing on a fortepiano by Paul McNulty made in Amsterdam in 1992, after an Anton Walter, c. 1795 - so both on these instruments were modeled on ones by the same maker at virtually the same time; below is a pic of a reconstructed McNulty fortepiano after one by Walter, 1792 (BTW, listed at 34,500 euros on his website!).

Recording locations and dates for Lubimov were 1990 in the Theatre de Semur-en Auxois; while for Brautigam, 1996 at Lama Church, Sweden - of course, the engineering, recordings positions, miking, etc. are factors difficult to gleam from the liner notes.  So, different performers and likely approaches to interpreting these works, different locales and recording engineering, and probably fairly similar instruments.

Well, I liked both of these recordings - Lubimov seemed more closely miked to me (which is fine to my ears) and maybe the surroundings?  His playing was somewhat lighter on the keys w/ more a staccato articulation for me, and a more rapid decay of the sound; whearas, Brautigam seemed a little more distant (like being in an auditorium but up front) and had a more legato interaction on the keys (believe that these instruments have knee pedals, so could that make a difference - just wondering?); also, his instrument seemed to have a more robust tone despite their reconstructions from fortepianos by the same maker about the same time, i.e. 1790s.

Bottom line for me is that I'll be keeping both sets - there is a difference but both remain pleasant experiences for me -  :D

(http://www.fortepiano.eu/site/site-gallery/models/walter_cropped.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on December 26, 2010, 06:13:39 AM
A new series from Supraphon: Music From 18th Century Prague (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/s/Music%2BFrom%2B18th%2BCentury%2BPrague)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2010, 06:23:46 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 26, 2010, 06:13:39 AM
A new series from Supraphon: Music From 18th Century Prague (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/s/Music%2BFrom%2B18th%2BCentury%2BPrague)

Navneeth, thanks for that link! A couple of these to start off with, I think:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/supraphonsu40392.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/supraphonsu40352.jpg)

Both look very interesting indeed. Quite fond of Bohemian music, I need to jump at a chance to hear some a bit earlier than anything else I've heard. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on January 01, 2011, 07:06:07 AM
There is a new Naxos disc this month of three symphonies by Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, with the Leipzig Chamber Orchestra and Morten Schuldt-Jensen. I've just listened to the Symphony in C, and it is absolutely fantastic - one of the very best "obscure classical" symphonies I've heard. The undoubted highlight is an episode in the finale where J.C.F. Bach throws in a truly bizarre passage of tritone-dominated folk music. The Leipzig band and Schuldt-Jensen have decided that maybe this was an indication that another band was playing in the next room over!, and the result is a bit of musical humor that (I dare say) would equal anything by Haydn. It's fantastic!  ;D

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572217.gif)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2011, 07:09:57 AM
Thanks for that info, Brian. I've enjoyed the 2 or 3 disks I have of JCF Bach, and know I will enjoy this one, too. That's pretty droll, I can see it now; "you, Piss Boy, go see what those dratted musicians are about"  "Yes Sire, shall I leave the bucket?".   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on January 01, 2011, 07:12:33 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2011, 07:09:57 AM
Thanks for that info, Brian. I've enjoyed the 2 or 3 disks I have of JCF Bach, and know I will enjoy this one, too. That's pretty droll, I can see it now; "you, Piss Boy, go see what those dratted musicians are about"  "Yes Sire, shall I leave the bucket?".   :D

8)

Sadly on re-reading the liner notes I had to edit that post.  :( It seems actually there was a peasant band outside and the windows were always open, so JCF decided to thrown in a passage mimicking (or mocking) the bumpkins outside the concert room.

Still funny!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 01, 2011, 07:56:40 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2011, 07:12:33 AM
Sadly on re-reading the liner notes I had to edit that post.  :( It seems actually there was a peasant band outside and the windows were always open, so JCF decided to thrown in a passage mimicking (or mocking) the bumpkins outside the concert room.

JCF Bach (1732-1795) - must explore this 'younger' Papa Bach son - I just have one disc dedicated solely to him, and another kind of 'Bach Sons Collection'!  Now in reviewing the 'short' Wiki Article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christoph_Friedrich_Bach), the guy wrote a tremendous amount of music!  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TAyALrGAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CCDB60RVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 01, 2011, 08:41:54 AM
Cambini, Giuseppe Maria (1746-1825) - Italian composer and violinist who arrived in Paris around 1770, and composed prolifically over the next 30 years and in all genres.  A short but concise biography is found HERE (http://www.answers.com/topic/giuseppe-cambini), and claims that he wrote over 700 compositions! 

Most of these works were instumental and included (according to the link above) 149 String Quartets, 114 String Quintets, over 100 Trios for various instuments, 9 Symphonies, and obviously much more!

I just acquired my first recording of this composer, i.e. Flute Trios on the Tactus label; he was brought to my attention by a review in the November-December issue of Fanfare which recommended a disc of his String Quintets - would be curious if others know this composer, who virtually spanned the lives of Mozart & Beethoven.  Not much seems available on Amazon, and not sure 'how much' of his works survive, but likely many are unrecorded?

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/CambiniFluteTrios/1142439370_yo2pQ-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2011, 08:59:52 AM
Well, can't miss having heard of Cambini if you are a Mozartian. Grove's mention of that tale is this;

QuoteQuote: New Grove Dictionary - Entry Cambini
Cambini's name is best known today through a brief encounter with Mozart, who blamed him, with only circumstantial evidence, for Legros' cancellation of the performance of his Symphonie concertante (the lost k297b) at the Concert Spirituel. The envy and intrigue that Mozart suspected is not reported elsewhere, and Gluck knew Cambini's personal reputation well enough to recommend him as an honest man.

I have also read a rather extended account of how he had some sort of assembly line set up to handle his composition of Sinfonias Concertante (of which 82 are extant). Grove doesn't mention it, but I thought it was quite interesting. I'll dig around and see if I can find the source again. Given the quantities of chamber music he is credited with, I wouldn't be surprised if he carried over some of those techniques to string quartets. In any case, they weren't part of the creative aspect, they had to do with copyists. He wrote all that music without personally touching pen to paper, is what I gathered. :)

I don't have any CD's of him, thanks for the tips, Dave. Have to check him out. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 01, 2011, 02:06:36 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2011, 08:59:52 AM
Well, can't miss having heard of Cambini if you are a Mozartian. Grove's mention of that tale is this;

I have also read a rather extended account of how he had some sort of assembly line set up to handle his composition of Sinfonias Concertante (of which 82 are extant). Grove doesn't mention it, but I thought it was quite interesting. I'll dig around and see if I can find the source again. Given the quantities of chamber music he is credited with, I wouldn't be surprised if he carried over some of those techniques to string quartets. In any case, they weren't part of the creative aspect, they had to do with copyists. He wrote all that music without personally touching pen to paper, is what I gathered. :)

I don't have any CD's of him, thanks for the tips, Dave. Have to check him out. :)

Gurn - re-listened to the Flute Trios this afternoon; marvelous disc and quite well done composing making one want to hear more of Cambini's chamber works -  :)

By chance, I checked out BRO and there was one recording for $8 - per chance, it was the String Quintet disc that had just been recommended by Jerry Dubins in the Nov-Dec 2010 issue of Fanfare - the review is attached - take a look, Jerry screwed up Cambini's dates having him being born before Haydn!  Interestingly, the same dates are listed on BRO - there is some dispute of his dates but the ones given in my previous post (and in the link) are likely much more correct.  But Dubins really enjoyed the recording and I expect the same - Dave  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2011, 02:25:51 PM
Dave,
Well, apparently the source for vital statistics is this 'Fetis' character who is unreliable. Here is the exact entry from Grove's:

Quote(b Livorno, ?13 Feb 1746; d ?Paris, 1825). Italian composer and violinist. His birthdate was supplied by Fétis, who mistakenly gave Cambini's forenames as Giovanni Giuseppe (Jean-Joseph). Fétis also stated that he studied with Polli, who is otherwise unknown. Cambini's own account (AMZ, vi) of his playing quartets as a young man with Manfredi, Nardini and Boccherini contains errors that raise questions about its validity, but it is likely that he worked with Manfredi. The tradition of his study with Padre Martini is doubtful, as is that of his personal contact with Haydn.

Well, nonetheless, the music is what counts, who cares about that old history crap anyway... ;D

Thanks for the tip about BRO. Stuck it in my basket while shopping to fill put a new order. Looks interesting, and gap-filling at the same time!  :)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Czech-Slovak RSO / Johanos - Gliere Op 42 Symphony #3 in b 1st mvmt - Andante sostenuto - Allegro risoluto - Tranquillo misterioso - Tempo I
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
Found a little Cambini today in the 'used' section. I'll have it to listen to by the weekend, I hope.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CambiniSinfonieConcertantecover.jpg)

It has 2 symphonies and 2 sinfonias concertante, 1 for 2 violins and one for oboe and bassoon. This band is on the Vivaldi complete edition too, PI, first rate. Some days you just live right. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on January 03, 2011, 07:46:44 AM
I've been listening to the Bilson Schubert Piano Sonatas (played on fortepiano) from Naxos Music Library - and enjoying them very much.  Thanks to Gurn for bringing these to my attention.  I've started in Vol. 7 and will work my way back through the others. 

:)

The odd thing is that on NML, the titles do not reflect the volume numbers (other than #7) so I have to locate them by the recording label.  They also failed to tag them with Bilson as the artist. 

???
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 03, 2011, 07:59:06 AM
Quote from: Leon on January 03, 2011, 07:46:44 AM
The odd thing is that on NML, the titles do not reflect the volume numbers (other than #7) so I have to locate them by the recording label.  They also failed to tag them with Bilson as the artist. 

???

If you select the option: "Piano Sonatas (Complete)", all discs are ordered by volume number.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2011, 07:59:55 AM
Quote from: Leon on January 03, 2011, 07:46:44 AM
I've been listening to the Bilson Schubert Piano Sonatas (played on fortepiano) from Naxos Music Library - and enjoying them very much.  Thanks to Gurn for bringing these to my attention.  I've started in Vol. 7 and will work my way back through the others. 

:)

The odd thing is that on NML, the titles do not reflect the volume numbers (other than #7) so I have to locate them by the recording label.  They also failed to tag them with Bilson as the artist. 

???

Cool, Leon, that's a great way to get to hear them (once you get through the mystery title/artist tags). Glad you like them. Here at the Classical Corner, we aim to please! :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on January 03, 2011, 08:25:08 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 03, 2011, 07:59:06 AM
If you select the option: "Piano Sonatas (Complete)", all discs are ordered by volume number.

Ah, I will try that - thanks Antoine.

I am new to NML and still learning how to navagate the site.  So far, I am not pleased with their seach engine since it returns pages of results and not actually reflecting the kind of filtering I had requested.  But it is a great resource for hearing a wide variety of music without having to commit to a purchase. 

I put in a search of "fortepiano" and found some pretty interesting things that I did not know existed. 
 
:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 03, 2011, 09:16:04 AM
Quote from: Leon on January 03, 2011, 08:25:08 AM
Ah, I will try that - thanks Antoine.

I am new to NML and still learning how to navagate the site.  So far, I am not pleased with their seach engine since it returns pages of results and not actually reflecting the kind of filtering I had requested.  But it is a great resource for hearing a wide variety of music without having to commit to a purchase. 

I put in a search of "fortepiano" and found some pretty interesting things that I did not know existed. 
 
:)

Coincidently, last night I was listening to the piano sonata No. 17, known as the Gasteiner, and I thought it's the best performance that I have listened to, especially the second movement.

I don't like the last movement (a bit anticlimatic), but that's a Schubert problem (or maybe just mine).  :)

 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 03, 2011, 02:17:48 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2010, 06:23:46 AM
Navneeth, thanks for that link! A couple of these to start off with, I think:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/supraphonsu40392.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/supraphonsu40352.jpg)

Both look very interesting indeed. Quite fond of Bohemian music, I need to jump at a chance to hear some a bit earlier than anything else I've heard. :)

8)
Those do look great. Thanks to all for posting about them (my first temptation of the year)!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on January 07, 2011, 06:22:09 AM
A scholar I am not, but I think the Classical Corner is a good place to offer this:

http://thesavagebreast.blogspot.com/ (http://thesavagebreast.blogspot.com/)

It attempts to catalogue composers of string quartets in the classical era, and mark off those compositions that can be found in professional recordings. Bear in mind, it is in no way a list of all such recordings.

Corrections and additions are welcome.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 07, 2011, 02:35:26 PM
Mozart Piano Quartets, K.478 & 493 - these are late Wolfie superlative works (and not many others have written for this combination) - I just acquired a new disc w/ Paul Badura-Skoda on fortepiano (Johann Schantz, Vienna ca. 1790 - I'm assuming a restoration?) w/ Quatuor Festetics (1993 recording date) - just finished my first listen to this performance - excellent!

Now my other LONG time favorite is Steven Lubin (on a fortepiano replica by R.J. Regier, 1981 after Anton Walter ca. 1785) w/ the Mozartean Players - have not done any comparisons but guarantee that I'll be keeping BOTH of these recordings; just prefer them over several 'modern' performances that I owned in the past.  For those wanting Mozart's Piano Quartets and who prefer modern instruments, I would still suggest having one of these PI offerings - both are just outstanding -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartQuartetsSkoda/1149671980_zaSam-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartPianoQuartetsLubin/970282594_BepJE-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on January 12, 2011, 07:10:02 AM
I could not post it yesterday, but I read an article  (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/top-10-composers-the-vienna-four/) in The New York Times by Anthony Tommasini who's compiling a list of The Top Ten Composers.  In this article he's discussing Classical Era composers, specifically Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert; and trying to decide which to include in the final list. 

Here's a quote:

QuoteYet one of these Vienna masters will have to be eliminated if we are going to leave spots for the giants of the 19th and 20th centuries. Might it be Haydn? Part of his legacy was carried on by his student Beethoven and his younger friend Mozart. I know musicians and critics who would howl at the idea that Haydn, who pioneered the string quartet and wrote some of the greatest works in that genre, would not be among the Top 5, let alone the top 10. What to do? For now, let's put it off.

The print edition had it as one article, but they split it up online, and that quote came from Part Two (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/top-10-composers-the-vienna-four-part-2/).

If asked, I'd suggest leaving out Schubert instead of Haydn, but then again, I'm biased.

:)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on January 12, 2011, 07:13:07 AM
Quote from: Leon on January 12, 2011, 07:10:02 AM
If asked, I'd suggest leaving out Schubert instead of Haydn, but then again, I'm biased.

The correct answer, of course, is to the scratch the idea of compiling such a list. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2011, 08:24:23 AM
Quote from: Leon on January 12, 2011, 07:10:02 AM
I could not post it yesterday, but I read an article  (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/top-10-composers-the-vienna-four/) in The New York Times by Anthony Tommasini who's compiling a list of The Top Ten Composers.  In this article he's discussing Classical Era composers, specifically Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert; and trying to decide which to include in the final list. 

Here's a quote:

The print edition had it as one article, but they split it up online, and that quote came from Part Two (http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/top-10-composers-the-vienna-four-part-2/).

If asked, I'd suggest leaving out Schubert instead of Haydn, but then again, I'm biased.

:)

There are no "giants" of the 20th century for whom Haydn needs to be left off. I say that with no fear of contradiction. None, nada, zip...  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 12, 2011, 02:18:26 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 01, 2011, 02:06:36 PM
Gurn - re-listened to the Flute Trios this afternoon; marvelous disc and quite well done composing making one want to hear more of Cambini's chamber works -  :)

By chance, I checked out BRO and there was one recording for $8 - per chance, it was the String Quintet disc that had just been recommended by Jerry Dubins in the Nov-Dec 2010 issue of Fanfare - the review is attached - take a look, Jerry screwed up Cambini's dates having him being born before Haydn!  Interestingly, the same dates are listed on BRO - there is some dispute of his dates but the ones given in my previous post (and in the link) are likely much more correct.  But Dubins really enjoyed the recording and I expect the same - Dave  ;D

Cambini, GM (1746-1825) - String Quintets w/ Ensemble Entre'Acte - these works are w/ 2 cellos (like Luigi B., pretty much the same Italian birth dates!) - my second listen and am impressed - this guy wrote nearly 300 String Quartets/Quintets but not sure 'how many' are extant (and of course few seem to be recorded at present) - as above this was a 'cheap' purchase from BRO and worth the price of admission - these are just wonderful representative compositions for their times, and I've always loved Boccherini's use of two cellos, just a deeper sound world for me - can you imagine a BOX SET of this guy's chamber works alone?  Suggestion - at least pick up a few disks if your interest is classical chamber works -  :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/CambiniStQuintets/1154850826_B9soS-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 15, 2011, 04:22:37 PM
Well, if you want some of Wolfie's Clarinet Chamber Works and have easy access to BRO (Berkshire Record Outlet), then the CD shown below is available for $6 - Wolfgang Meyer on a reproduction 'Basset Clarinet' & Patrick Cohen on a foretepiano w/ the Quatuor Mosaiques - these are wonderful perfomances worth consideration -  ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartClarinetCohenQM/1154850846_NX9zj-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on January 15, 2011, 06:23:00 PM
Quote from: Leon on January 12, 2011, 07:10:02 AM
If asked, I'd suggest leaving out Schubert instead of Haydn, but then again, I'm biased.
Me, too--and I'm not biased.

Hmmm...Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy, Mahler, Sibelius, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, and either Brahms or Tchaikovsky.  There!  That ought to irritate most everyone!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 06:54:29 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 15, 2011, 04:22:37 PM
Well, if you want some of Wolfie's Clarinet Chamber Works and have easy access to BRO (Berkshire Record Outlet), then the CD shown below is available for $6 - Wolfgang Meyer on a reproduction 'Basset Clarinet' & Patrick Cohen on a foretepiano w/ the Quatuor Mosaiques - these are wonderful perfomances worth consideration -  ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartClarinetCohenQM/1154850846_NX9zj-O.jpg)

Great disk, Dave. It was one of the ones that convinced me that QM better, for whatever reason, doing Mozart than anyone else they do. Great price for a Naive disk anyway!   :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Consortium Classicum & Academy of St Martin-in-the-Field - Crusell Op 3 Sinfonia concertante in Bb for Clarinet, Horn & Bassoon 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2011, 05:04:14 PM
Well, it has taken me a long time to finally get good recordings that present all of Schubert's Violin & Piano sonatas and other works for V & P, performed on period instruments. Today I finally made that happen. And with a disk that I didn't even know the existence of until last week when I ran across it on eBay!  I bet you guys knew all along and weren't telling me. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertVPBiondicover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertHillSteckVP2cover.jpg)

Between them, all are there and in excellent performances too. This was even more difficult than the solo sonatas! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Hélène Schmitt (Violin) / Gervreau, Alain (Cello) / Jansen, Jan (Clavecin) - BWV 1025 Suite in A for Violin & BC 3rd mvmt - Entrée
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on January 17, 2011, 06:02:57 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2011, 05:04:14 PM
Well, it has taken me a long time to finally get good recordings that present all of Schubert's Violin & Piano sonatas and other works for V & P, performed on period instruments. Today I finally made that happen. And with a disk that I didn't even know the existence of until last week when I ran across it on eBay!  I bet you guys knew all along and weren't telling me. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertVPBiondicover.jpg)

Between them, all are there and in excellent performances too. This was even more difficult than the solo sonatas! :)



I did not know that Biondi took on Schubert....well!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on January 17, 2011, 06:05:21 PM
PS Is Opus 111 still up and running?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2011, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 17, 2011, 06:02:57 PM
I did not know that Biondi took on Schubert....well!

Nor did I. I was more than mildly surprised. I haven't listened to it yet, but the liner notes say he plays in a quite Romantic sort of style. :)
Quote from: Bogey on January 17, 2011, 06:05:21 PM
PS Is Opus 111 still up and running?

Well, don't get me to lying. I thought they were DOA, but then they got involved in that big Vivaldi project with Naïve, so now I don't know at all. Maybe they are part of Naïve now?   ???

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Itzhak Perlman / David Garvey (Piano) - Leclair Op 9 #03 Sonata in D 3rd mvmt - Sarabande: Largo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on January 17, 2011, 06:11:46 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2011, 06:09:21 PM
Nor did I. I was more than mildly surprised. I haven't listened to it yet, but the liner notes say he plays in a quite Romantic sort of style. :)
Well, don't get me to lying. I thought they were DOA, but then they got involved in that big Vivaldi project with Naïve, so now I don't know at all. Maybe they are part of Naïve now?   ???

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Itzhak Perlman / David Garvey (Piano) - Leclair Op 9 #03 Sonata in D 3rd mvmt - Sarabande: Largo

Their OOP discs can be pricey.  I have been digging around for this one for some time now as I have Vol. 2.

[asin]B000005W4K[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2011, 06:15:48 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 17, 2011, 06:11:46 PM
Their OOP discs can be pricey.  I have been digging around for this one for some time now as I have Vol. 2.

[asin]B000005W4K[/asin]

In my experience their disks are always on the pricey side, new or old. But all the ones I have were well worth it. I was afraid to click your link and find out, but I will be surprised if that is not $30 or more. Well, no guts, no glory, Bill. Look that would be 30 licorice pizzas you could easily do without... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Itzhak Perlman / David Garvey (Piano) - Bloch 'Baal Shem' pt 2  'Nigun'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 17, 2011, 06:46:17 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2011, 05:04:14 PM
Well, it has taken me a long time to finally get good recordings that present all of Schubert's Violin & Piano sonatas and other works for V & P, performed on period instruments. Today I finally made that happen. And with a disk that I didn't even know the existence of until last week when I ran across it on eBay!  I bet you guys knew all along and weren't telling me. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertVPBiondicover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertHillSteckVP2cover.jpg)

Between them, all are there and in excellent performances too. This was even more difficult than the solo sonatas! :)

Olga Tverskaya is an excellent fortepianist and have recorded at least two discs of Schubert's solo keyboard music (Opus 111, too). She also recorded with Biondi a disc of Mozart's violin sonatas.

This is other choice for Schubert's works for pianoforte and violin:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519DMewM7WL._SS400_.jpg)

(although this is not exactly a recommendation because I have some problems with Midori Seiler's sound)
:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2011, 04:18:26 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 17, 2011, 06:46:17 PM
Olga Tverskaya is an excellent fortepianist and have recorded at least two discs of Schubert's solo keyboard music (Opus 111, too). She also recorded with Biondi a disc of Mozart's violin sonatas.

This is other choice for Schubert's works for pianoforte and violin:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519DMewM7WL._SS400_.jpg)

(although this is not exactly a recommendation because I have some problems with Midori Seiler's sound)
:)

Is that a single disk with just the sonatas, Antoine? If so, I would be interested anyway, but I haven't found a problem getting good versions (I also have Jaap Schröder/ Christopher Hogwood doing the 4). It is the Rondo brillant and the Fantasy in C that are killers. AFAIK, the Steck/Hill is the only choice for those. I like them both better than the sonatas, oddly enough, so their scarcity on PI is disappointing. :)

I like Seiler in some other things (mostly Mozart) that I have her... probably a bad cat. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 18, 2011, 04:30:02 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2011, 05:04:14 PM
Well, it has taken me a long time to finally get good recordings that present all of Schubert's Violin & Piano sonatas and other works for V & P, performed on period instruments. Today I finally made that happen. And with a disk that I didn't even know the existence of until last week when I ran across it on eBay!  I bet you guys knew all along and weren't telling me. :)

Gurn - I have the Steck on MDG V. 2 (assume that their V. 1 covers the others) - instead I own the H. Mundi disc w/ Manze & Egarr, which complements the MDG disc - but looking foward to seeing others and reviewing the comments - Dave  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51chyGyAsfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2011, 04:34:19 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 18, 2011, 04:30:02 AM
Gurn - I have the Steck on MDG V. 2 (assume that their V. 1 covers the others) - instead I own the H. Mundi disc w/ Manze & Egarr, which complements the MDG disc - but looking foward to seeing others and reviewing the comments - Dave  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51chyGyAsfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Dave,
Yeah, I have the v 2 also. And it's true, v 1 is the 3 sonatinas (boy, that disk must be thin!). Finding other versions of that repertoire, the Fantasia and the Rondo brillant have been a stumbling block. And then, I wanted a better version of the sonatinas, and I think this Biondi disk will be it. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 18, 2011, 05:42:09 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2011, 04:18:26 AM
Is that a single disk with just the sonatas, Antoine?

Yes, Gurn, just sonatas: D 385, 384, 408 & 574.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 18, 2011, 05:59:17 AM
I just posted this in the Listening thread, but thought there might be interest here too. Gassman straddles the Baroque and Classical, but I hear enough of the classical style to put him here. In any case, breezy and light stuff (but fun).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GZ%2BpWXyfL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The new erato on January 18, 2011, 09:45:47 AM
Breezy sounds about right for a guy named Gassmann.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2011, 10:00:40 AM
Quote from: erato on January 18, 2011, 09:45:47 AM
Breezy sounds about right for a guy named Gassmann.

Hmm, that came off a bit windy, didn't it?  ::)

As for Gassman, he was another of those fellows who was quite famous in his time and highly regarded. I think it's safe to say that he was early Classical, at least his later stuff is quite galant. I will be checking that disk out, I think, as I would like him to be more than a name to me. :) Thanks,

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on January 18, 2011, 12:23:03 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on January 18, 2011, 05:59:17 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GZ%2BpWXyfL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Love in The Workplace??? The Critical Night???  :o

This Gassmann guy sounds more like a 21-st century corporate executive than an 18-th century composer...  ;D

I've only heard his oboe trio and it's quite allright if you like Mozart's one...

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 18, 2011, 03:59:46 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 18, 2011, 04:30:02 AM
Gurn - I have the Steck on MDG V. 2 (assume that their V. 1 covers the others) - instead I own the H. Mundi disc w/ Manze & Egarr, which complements the MDG disc - but looking foward to seeing others and reviewing the comments - Dave  :D

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/34/78/000c7834_medium.jpeg)  (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchubertVPBiondicover.jpg)

For those trying to obtain these works on PIs, the H. Mundi recording is w/ Richard Egarr on an original fortepiano (Salvatore Lagrass, c. 1815) and Andrew Manze on an 1834 French violin (Pierre Pacherele, Nice); contains the 3 Op. 137 works + Op. 162 for 78+ minutes of music - great review on Classics Today HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11275) - enjoying the disc now as I type away -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2011, 05:17:19 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 18, 2011, 03:59:46 PM
For those trying to obtain these works on PIs, the H. Mundi recording is w/ Richard Egarr on an original fortepiano (Salvatore Lagrass, c. 1815) and Andrew Manze on an 1834 French violin (Pierre Pacherele, Nice); contains the 3 Op. 137 works + Op. 162 for 78+ minutes of music - great review on Classics Today HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11275) - enjoying the disc now as I type away -  :D

Well, that was rather positive. I'm certainly not averse to adding this to my collection, although, as I say, it's the 2 works that are NOT on here that are my main interest.

FYI, Tverskaya plays an 1820 Graf fortepiano. It has a very nice tone. I'm still puzzled how this disk flew under my radar for so long. I would have snapped it up in a heartbeat if I had ever seen it anywhere. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
La Pastorella - Corelli Op 6 #10 Concerto Grosso in C 5th mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2011, 05:17:19 PMI'm still puzzled how this disk flew under my radar for so long. I would have snapped it up in a heartbeat if I had ever seen it anywhere. :)

I thought the same thing when some weeks ago I discovered a complete set of Mozart's piano sonatas played on period instruments that I had never seen before. It's a complete set recorded on Accent and also played by a Russian fortepianist named Temenuschka Vesselinova, who also recorded a better known set of Mozart's violin sonatas with Chiara Banchini (HM, period instruments, of course)... Unfortunately, that set (which I heard via NML) is totally OOP.   

(http://www.discographie.org/accent/ACC_88_51-52_D.jpg)(http://www.discographie.org/accent/ACC_88_53-54_D.jpg)

BTW, some excellent pieces played by Vesselinova (on wonderful period instruments) can be listened to on You Tube.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 04:07:48 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 12:55:39 PM
I thought the same thing when some weeks ago I discovered a complete set of Mozart's piano sonatas played on period instruments that I had never seen before. It's a complete set recorded on Accent and also played by a Russian fortepianist named Temenuschka Vesselinova, who also recorded a better known set of Mozart's violin sonatas with Chiara Banchini (HM, period instruments, of course)... Unfortunately, that set (which I heard via NML) is totally OOP.   

(http://www.discographie.org/accent/ACC_88_51-52_D.jpg)(http://www.discographie.org/accent/ACC_88_53-54_D.jpg)

BTW, some excellent pieces played by Vesselinova (on wonderful period instruments) can be listened to on You Tube.  :)

Well, those look nice. I've never seen them either. However, I have all 3 volumes by her and Banchini in the Mozart collection... They are really very good, as you would expect. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartVPBanchiniVol1cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartVPBanchiniVol2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartVPBanchiniVol3cover.jpg)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
L'Arte dell Arco / Federico Guglielmo - 01 RV 269 Concerto in E for Violin & Wind Orchestra 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 04:57:41 PM
Well, back in early December, Antoine pointed out to me that a Smithson Quartet set that I had long wanted was now available on Amazon Marketplace. But out of England, not here in the US. And while I was looking at that, I also ran across the 3 disks by Karttunen and Hakkila that are the current PI standard for Beethoven's Cello and Fortepiano sonatas. They have been OOP for a long time, and now Warner has released them on the wonderful Apex label. Oh, they were in Europe too (seller says England but actually came out of Germany). I was a little dubious about Marketplace vendors in Europe where one couldn't drive to their shop and talk about it if they failed to deliver, but I figured WTF, let's give it a try. Well, that was on December 9......

Today, I got a glut in the mailbox!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartSmithson5Diskcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BeethovenKarttunenHakkila1cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BeethovenKarttunenHakkila2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BeethovenKarttunenHakkila3cover.jpg)

Yes, there the rascals were. I got a forward from one of the sellers from the Royal Mail which said that US Homeland Security was inspecting every single package from Europe. Also the weather over there hadn't helped. So anyway, 6 weeks down the road, I have my disks. Good price on them, and AMP standard pricing for S & H ($2.98) applied, so I guess my patience was rewarded. :)

8)



----------------
Now playing:
Les Plaisirs du Parnasse - Biber 'Fidicinium' Sonata #01 in b - Allegro - Adagio - Allegro - Adagio - Allegro - Adagio - Grave - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 05:18:31 PM
Apropos the Smithson String Quartet, I recently got from the German Amazon an excellent set of Haydn's string quartets (Op.9/4, Op. 17/3 and Op. 17/5), performed by the Smithsonians (Dorian-sono luminus). It recalled me an old favorite (almost my introduction to Haydn on period instruments), those string quartets from the Op. 20 played by the Esterhazy Quartet on SEON:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BuugJLknL._SS400_.jpg)(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/11/1165711.jpg)

Both ensembles are leaded by Jaap Schröeder from the first violin.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 05:22:19 PM
Ah, very nice! And I have only heard of the Q. Esterhazy disk, it just doesn't come around for sale. So many lovely things on Seon, that was a great label!  :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Les Plaisirs du Parnasse - Biber 'Fidicinium' Sonata #06 in a - [Allegro] - [Presto] - [Allegro] - Presto - Adagio - Allegro - [Adagio]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 05:34:36 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 05:22:19 PM
Ah, very nice! And I have only heard of the Q. Esterhazy disk, it just doesn't come around for sale. So many lovely things on Seon, that was a great label!

Yes, it was a great label and Wolf Erichson -his owner and producer of every disc recorded there-, was a genius (well, Sony Vivarte is also a fine demonstration). Fortunately, I have got over the years a fair amount of their discs, I think around 20 or something so.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 05:39:38 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 05:34:36 PM
Yes, it was a great label and Wolf Erichson -his owner and producer of every disc recorded there-, was a genius (well, Sony Vivarte is also a fine demonstration). Fortunately, I have got over the years a fair amount of their discs, I think around 20 or something so.  :)

I'm surprised if I have an many as 3 or 4. One of my favorites though is a Mozart Violin concerto and concertante movements from orchestral serenades with Schröder und Brüggen. And another is a few violin sonatas by Sigiswald and Leonhardt. Very nice!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Les Plaisirs du Parnasse - Biber 'Fidicinium' Sonata #09 in G - [Allegro] - Adagio - Presto - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 06:05:48 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 05:39:38 PM
I'm surprised if I have an many as 3 or 4. One of my favorites though is a Mozart Violin concerto and concertante movements from orchestral serenades with Schröder und Brüggen. And another is a few violin sonatas by Sigiswald and Leonhardt. Very nice!

Well, probably the explanation is that SEON didn't record too much Classical repertoire, but Baroque and Ancient Music in general. For instance, near a half of my SEON discs are dedicated to Bach: Musical Offering, French Suites, English Suites, Clavier-übung II, Brandenburgs, flute sonatas, organ works, etc. BTW, I also have that beautiful version of the Four Seasons with Leonhardt, the Kuijkens and other of their friends...  :) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 06:05:48 PM
Well, probably the explanation is that SEON didn't record too much Classical repertoire, but Baroque and Ancient Music in general. For instance, near a half of my SEON discs are dedicated to Bach: Musical Offering, French Suites, English Suites, Clavier-übung II, Brandenburgs, flute sonatas, organ works, etc. BTW, I also have that beautiful version of the Four Seasons with Leonhardt, the Kuijkens and other of their friends...  :)

Yes, that would explain much. You know I'm no Bach-o-phile. He wrote a couple of nice things though... :D

Now Vivaldi; that's music! :)


----------------
Now playing:
London Festival Orchestra / Bengtson Björn Lundgren (Piano) - Grieg Op 46 Peer Gynt Suite #1 pt 3 - 'Anitras Tanz'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 06:15:18 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
Yes, that would explain much. You know I'm no Bach-o-phile. He wrote a couple of nice things though... :D

Now Vivaldi; that's music! :)

You know I am also a Vivaldi fan, so no word against him will come out from my mouth... After all, that's Scarpia's work...  :P
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 06:18:23 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 06:15:18 PM
You know I am also a Vivaldi fan, so no word against him will come out from my mouth... After all, that's Scarpia's work...  :P

Yes, each of us in our little community has a job to do... :D  Even Greg!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
London Festival Orchestra / Bengtson  Björn Lundgren (Piano) - Grieg Op 16 Concerto in a for Piano 1st mvmt - Allegro molto moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The new erato on January 19, 2011, 11:20:51 PM
I think there's lots of Seon releases in this very fine box:

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/70/8f/000c8f70_medium.jpeg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 20, 2011, 06:00:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2011, 04:57:41 PM
.......I also ran across the 3 disks by Karttunen and Hakkila that are the current PI standard for Beethoven's Cello and Fortepiano sonatas. They have been OOP for a long time, and now Warner has released them on the wonderful Apex label....

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BeethovenKarttunenHakkila1cover.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BeethovenOrkisHardy/744688227_bNJKd-O.jpg)


Gurn - those Beethoven Piano & Cello Sonatas/Variations interest me; the only PI version that I own is added above, i.e. Lambert Orkis & David Hardy - a 4 disc set, split between performances on period instruments/practices & modern versions - great concept and a set that I do enjoy.  So, I was wondering if you have possibly heard the Orkis/Hardy PI performances?  And, if so, how might they compare to the ones you just received?

BTW, there is one disc at BRO on the Finlandia label (assume the original produces of this set?) for $4 - looks like the Vol. 1 above; Amazon MP also has Vol. 3 on the Apex label for $6 - so, for $10 I could pick up 2 of these CDs?

Finally, I'm curious if you have the Orkis set also - how could Orkis/Hardy get all of these works on 2 discs (states 'Complete'....) vs. 3 discs for the others?  Thanks - Dave  :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2011, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 20, 2011, 06:00:53 AM
Gurn - those Beethoven Piano & Cello Sonatas/Variations interest me; the only PI version that I own is added above, i.e. Lambert Orkis & David Hardy - a 4 disc set, split between performances on period instruments/practices & modern versions - great concept and a set that I do enjoy.  So, I was wondering if you have possibly heard the Orkis/Hardy PI performances?  And, if so, how might they compare to the ones you just received?

BTW, there is one disc at BRO on the Finlandia label (assume the original produces of this set?) for $4 - looks like the Vol. 1 above; Amazon MP also has Vol. 3 on the Apex label for $6 - so, for $10 I could pick up 2 of these CDs?

Finally, I'm curious if you have the Orkis set also - how could Orkis/Hardy get all of these works on 2 discs (states 'Complete'....) vs. 3 discs for the others?  Thanks - Dave  :)

So many questions, so little time!  :)

My guess on Lambert/Orkis is that they only do the sonatas, not the 3 sets of variations, that's how they get them on 2 disks. That's what Casals/Serkin does. Clearly I don't have that set to answer that question, but I do have other disks by those 2 and am well-pleased with them.

Yes, I got vol 1 from BRO, and vol 2 & 3 from the Amazon Marketplace. I think what you will see is that those Amazon vendors are in England and/or Germany. At least when I bought them, neither vol 2 or 3 was available in the USA, let alone at that price. Things change, of course, but experience has taught me that if I wait, then I will get nothing at all.... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 20, 2011, 06:38:53 AM
Well, for those who may be curious about these LvB works on the Orkis set put on 2 discs each:

Sonatas Op. 5, Nos. 1/2; Sonata Op. 69, and Sonatas Op. 102, Nos. 1/2 - plus 12 Handel 'Judas M..' Variations, WoO 45, 12 Mozart 'Magic Flute' Variations, Op. 66, and 7 Mozart 'Magic Flute' Variations, WoO 46.

Not sure how all of this was put on the 2 CDs compared to the other 3-disc set - timings, repeats, and/or other works on the latter?

But may put in a BRO order and get that Vol. 1 on the Finlandia label; also, the Vol. 3 on the Amazon MP is available at MovieMars, which is in Charlotte, 90 miles from me!  That is interesting - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: FideLeo on January 20, 2011, 06:42:55 AM
I think I have a different answer than Gurn's (Hi, Gurn!).  The reason that Karttunen and Hakkila required a third disc for their complete recording is because they decided to include Op. 17 and Op. 64, both arrangements of earlier works (horn sonata and a string trio).  As such many complete sets still manage to include three variation sets and five sonatas on two CD's.  (Wispelwey's more recent recording, for example.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2011, 07:42:25 AM
Quote from: masolino on January 20, 2011, 06:42:55 AM
I think I have a different answer than Gurn's (Hi, Gurn!).  The reason that Karttunen and Hakkila required a third disc for their complete recording is because they decided to include Op. 17 and Op. 64, both arrangements of earlier works (horn sonata and a string trio).  As such many complete sets still manage to include three variation sets and five sonatas on two CD's.  (Wispelwey's more recent recording, for example.)

Hi, Masolino. Nice to see you back. And you're right, it is the inclusion of those rarely recorded pieces that pushed the envelope spacewise. I'm looking forward to listening to the next 2 volumes since I have heard so many positive things about them. Actually, the Op 17 & 64 are the only versions that I have on PI, I also have 1 version of each on modern instruments. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on January 20, 2011, 03:24:54 PM
VORISEK
Ulster Orchestra, Kenneth Montgomery
SYMPHONY IN D MAJOR


I have listened a couple of times to this, and there's something in it that looks forward to Beethoven.   In some passages it sounds, even now, thoroughly modern, and I am inclined to explore this composer further - a first personal discovery from the Classical era for me!  His sounds are quite challenging for his era.
Anyone familiar with Vorisek, and what do you recommend?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2011, 04:24:53 PM
Hi, John,
I haven't heard any of Vorisek's orchestral music, I see a Mackerras disk there that I might pursue though. You might find this piano disk nice though if you like solo piano:

[asin]B0014Z3OIA[/asin]

Vorisek is one of those composers who was unfortunate to live in the time of Beethoven, thus got overlooked. In modern times, he lived in the time of Beethoven, so he still gets overlooked. Undeservedly so, IMO.  :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
London Festival Orchestra / Bengtson Björn Lundgren (Piano) - Grieg Op 16 Concerto in a for Piano 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on January 21, 2011, 05:38:08 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2011, 04:24:53 PM
Hi, John,
I haven't heard any of Vorisek's orchestral music, I see a Mackerras disk there that I might pursue though. You might find this piano disk nice though if you like solo piano:
[asin]B0014Z3OIA[/asin]
Vorisek is one of those composers who was unfortunate to live in the time of Beethoven, thus got overlooked. In modern times, he lived in the time of Beethoven, so he still gets overlooked. Undeservedly so, IMO.  :-\

Thank you for that Gurn.  His piano works are extremely imaginative, like his orchestral works.  It certainly is undeserved that he is looked over and died young.  It sounds to me that in terms of music, he would have eventually been and equal to Beethoven.    :D

And anyway, what is wrong with me that the music I am most attracted to was written by a tragic young figure.  First (and still) Hans Rott, now this chap Vorisek!  :-[
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 21, 2011, 05:42:43 AM
Quote from: John on January 21, 2011, 05:38:08 AM
Thank you for that Gurn.  His piano works are extremely imaginative, like his orchestral works.  It certainly is undeserved that he is looked over and died young.  It sounds to me that in terms of music, he would have eventually been and equal to Beethoven.    :D

And anyway, what is wrong with me that the music I am most attracted to was written by a tragic young figure.  First (and still) Hans Rott, now this chap Vorisek!  :-[
Then I guess we shouldn't mention that poor chap Arriaga.... :'(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2011, 05:49:36 AM
Quote from: John on January 21, 2011, 05:38:08 AM
Thank you for that Gurn.  His piano works are extremely imaginative, like his orchestral works.  It certainly is undeserved that he is looked over and died young.  It sounds to me that in terms of music, he would have eventually been and equal to Beethoven.    :D

And anyway, what is wrong with me that the music I am most attracted to was written by a tragic young figure.  First (and still) Hans Rott, now this chap Vorisek!  :-[

Mere tragic coincidence, I think. Well, if you wanted to pile it on, you would get that Mackerras / SCO disk. He couples Vorisek's D major symphony with another D major symphony (and a brilliant one) from the same time period, by Juan Arriaga, who went on to die at 20 (January 27, 1806 – January 17, 1826). They made Mozart and Schubert look positively greybearded! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2011, 05:50:23 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on January 21, 2011, 05:42:43 AM
Then I guess we shouldn't mention that poor chap Arriaga.... :'(

Whoops, my bad... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on January 21, 2011, 09:40:41 AM
I had an arriago bagel once, very nice . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on January 22, 2011, 05:49:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2011, 04:24:53 PM
Hi, John,
I haven't heard any of Vorisek's orchestral music, I see a Mackerras disk there that I might pursue though. You might find this piano disk nice though if you like solo piano:

Vorisek is one of those composers who was unfortunate to live in the time of Beethoven, thus got overlooked. In modern times, he lived in the time of Beethoven, so he still gets overlooked. Undeservedly so, IMO.  :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
London Festival Orchestra / Bengtson Björn Lundgren (Piano) - Grieg Op 16 Concerto in a for Piano 2nd mvmt - Adagio

There is a 3-CD set that contains the complete piano works by Vorísek, in Supraphon, also by Kvapil. I ignore if the 1-CD set contains excerpts of the other, or if it is plainly another recording.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on January 23, 2011, 10:14:11 AM
I have nothing to add, but just wanted to pop in and say, "Howdy!"

So far, excepting only a brief excursion into snippets of Bach, it's been an all Beethoven day for me.  Who knows, I might even get around to the 9th Symphony!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 23, 2011, 10:14:11 AM
I have nothing to add, but just wanted to pop in and say, "Howdy!"

So far, excepting only a brief excursion into snippets of Bach, it's been an all Beethoven day for me.  Who knows, I might even get around to the 9th Symphony!

Back at'cha, David. :)

Been all Beethoven for me today too, starting off with Ansermet and the Orchestre Suisse-Romande in a very nice interpretation of the 9th from 1958. And then following up with the complete works for Cello & Fortepiano which is still playing now. This is a very nice cycle, great color from the instruments. Up next though, some Chopin on an 1836 Pleyel pianoforte, look forward to that. :)

8)



----------------
Now playing:
A. Karttunen (Cello) & Tuija Hakkila (Fortepiano) - Bia 599 #2 Op 102 #2 Sonata in D for Cello & Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Adagio con molto sentimento d'affeto - attacca -
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on January 26, 2011, 06:53:06 AM
Discovered this on NML:

[asin]B004H4OH7W[/asin]

Listening to Flute Trio No. 16 in D major, Hob.XV:16 (period instruments)

Richard Fuller
Annie Laflamme
Dorothea Schonwiese-Guschlbauer


From All Music Guide (http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-trios-for-piano-flute-violoncello-w208618):

QuoteComposed in 1789 or 1790 for the London publisher John Bland, they are more genuinely trios than most of the so-called piano trios, where the keyboard is dominant. The flute for the most part has an equal role to the piano in these trios, and the opening sonata-form movements are substantial essays with excursions into remote chromatic territory. Even the concluding Flute Trio No. 30 in F major, Hob. 15/17, which seems to follow an earlier pattern with its two-movement configuration and minuet finale offers in that finale a rather thorny minuet-sonata form hybrid.

Hmm, don't know why the "asin" is not coming up - but the link is active.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2011, 07:06:33 AM
Hey, Leon.

First, the asin isn't working because the picture is not the property of Amazon, it is a customer supplied picture. So the asin doesn't work. No big deal.

As to the music, I am really keen on those trios. I think the finales are some of Haydn's niftiest, and vastly entertaining. I have this version:

[asin]B00011MK5Q[/asin]

which is very nicely played, and the version by the van Sweiten trio in their complete fortepiano trios box too. This one you posted looks interesting, I wonder if the CD will be available one day... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on January 26, 2011, 07:11:55 AM
Ah, thanks for explaining the "asin" glitch.  I have that Van Sweiten set and will seek out these works, since as you say - they are nifty.  That CPO disc looks mighty fine, as well.

Don't know where NML gets their tracks, I assumed they were from CDs, but Amazon only has the MP3 for this one - a small mystery.

Some info on the instruments in the recording I mentioned above:

Transverse Flute: Martin Wenner, Singen, 2009, after Karl August Grenser, Dresden ca. 1770

Violoncello: attributed to Georg Klotz, ca. 1725

Fortepiano: Werner Keil, Schriesheim, 1985, after Johann Andreas Stein, Augsburg, 1788
Tuning: a'= 421 Hz


One nice thing on NML is the inclusion of a PDF of the complete booklet - which leads me to think there must be a CD available for this recording.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2011, 07:52:42 AM
Quote from: Leon on January 26, 2011, 07:11:55 AM
Ah, thanks for explaining the "asin" glitch.  I have that Van Sweiten set and will seek out these works, since as you say - they are nifty.  That CPO disc looks mighty fine, as well.

Don't know where NML gets their tracks, I assumed they were from CDs, but Amazon only has the MP3 for this one - a small mystery.

Some info on the instruments in the recording I mentioned above:

Transverse Flute: Martin Wenner, Singen, 2009, after Karl August Grenser, Dresden ca. 1770

Violoncello: attributed to Georg Klotz, ca. 1725

Fortepiano: Werner Keil, Schriesheim, 1985, after Johann Andreas Stein, Augsburg, 1788
Tuning: a'= 421 Hz


One nice thing on NML is the inclusion of a PDF of the complete booklet - which leads me to think there must be a CD available for this recording.

That all looks interesting! I like the sound of a Stein fortepiano too. If that disk ever comes available, I shall snap it up. There are at least 2 reasons that Amazon has the MP3 and not the disk: it hasn't been released in America yet (and may not be), or it is actually out of print by now and MP3's are all you will ever see. I suppose there are others, but those are the only 2 I've run across so far. I've got friends in Europe though...   0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 08:07:15 AM
I love the London Trios--the only recording I have is Stern, Rampal, Slava:
[asin]B0000025PQ[/asin]

I trust Camerata Köln is a period instrument HIP combo?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2011, 08:24:56 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 26, 2011, 08:07:15 AM
I love the London Trios--the only recording I have is Stern, Rampal, Slava:
[asin]B0000025PQ[/asin]

I trust Camerata Köln is a period instrument HIP combo?

Yes, they are a first rate group of players too, PI or not! Now, the set that you have (which I do have also) is excellent too, but it's a different group of pieces. There are 2 different sets of so-called "London Trios", one of them being Hob IV:1-4 which is for flute, cello & violin (actually, 2 flutes & cello, but frequently played with 1 flute and fiddle). The other set is 3 piano trios, Hob XVI:15-17, which are for flute, cello & fortepiano. All of them were written for London publication (John Bland). If you get that Camerata Köln disk, you get all of them! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2011, 09:09:21 AM
Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823) - String Quintets w/ Les Adieux - I was listening to these works yesterday (a 2-CD set still available from BRO, I believe) and felt these were excellent compositions and well performed; so checking back in the forum, there was some brief discussion back in April of 2009 (Gurn, Gabriel, & myself) (one post quoted at the bottom).

So, I was curious about the composer, but little is available - a short Wiki article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Aloys_F%C3%B6rster) shows him in Vienna as a composer & teacher, married well, and was friends of Mozart & Haydn (and I assume many other composers of the era & place) - he was probably a pretty famous guy back then!  However, very little seems available on Amazon - did he write much?  Well, not easily found - but on the French Wiki site HERE (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Alois_F%C3%B6rster), his works are listed - he was quite prolific and apparently one of the pioneers in writing piano chamber works - summary below:

Concertos for various instruments - 4
String Quartets - 48 (including Op. 7, 16, & 21; plus, many w/o opus numbers)
String Quintets - 13 (including Op. 19, 20, & 26)
Piano Chamber Works - 28 (from sonatas, trios, and up to an octet)
Piano Solo Works - many (check the link, if interested)
Other Miscellaneous Works -  :D

Boy, judging by the set of String Quintets that I own, this composer was indeed good!  Has anyone discovered other recordings?  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ForsterQuintets/1167599668_Lp9qv-O.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Emanuel_Aloys_Foerster.jpg/220px-Emanuel_Aloys_Foerster.jpg)

Quote from: SonicMan on April 03, 2009, 09:03:17 AM
Gurn & Gabriel - just put in an order for that Field box of the orchestral piano works; listened to the single CD that I pictured previously the other night, and enjoyed the playing, the orchestra, and the sound (and @ a great price)!

Was also interested in the comments on Emanuel Aloys Förster (1748-1823) - thought that I had one disc of this composer's music, but no (checked my database and the composer I own is Josef Foerster!) - however, my first check was at BRO (http://www2.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=forster&filter=all), and to my surprise, they did have the 2-CD set of Förster's Quintets for $14 - so put in an order, and hope to enjoy on their arrival!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2011, 09:39:03 AM
Dave,
No, no other recordings, but I certainly enjoy that one. I thought that Fantasie was interesting, usually Fantasies are rather short works, but that one's a monster! :o  I would wish for a disk of piano trios, they are a generally definitive genre for displaying a composer's talents. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: PaulSC on January 30, 2011, 11:03:46 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2011, 07:06:33 AM
First, the asin isn't working because the picture is not the property of Amazon, it is a customer supplied picture. So the asin doesn't work.
Actually in this case it's not a customer image. It's the official product image, but the product format is a digital download (mp3s). The GMG asin function only works for CDs, not downloads. (Actually, I wonder if the GMG asin function can be extended to handle the mp3 case. I'll make a request to this effect in the suggestions thread -- no harm in asking!)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2011, 04:19:34 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 30, 2011, 11:03:46 PM
Actually in this case it's not a customer image. It's the official product image, but the product format is a digital download (mp3s). The GMG asin function only works for CDs, not downloads. (Actually, I wonder if the GMG asin function can be extended to handle the mp3 case. I'll make a request to this effect in the suggestions thread -- no harm in asking!)

Ah. My bad for being a know-it-all then. Now I know more. :D  Rob had said it would work for music books, anything they sell. Apparently he was misinformed too. :-\

No harm in trying though. You never know what he can come up with. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 03, 2011, 04:37:34 AM
Gurn, confession --- and repentance --- time.  :P

Quote from: Florestan on February 03, 2011, 04:30:57 AM
Once I listened to all 9 Mahler symphonies on a single day. For half a year after I cringed in horror at the simple uttering of his name in my presence...  ;D

OTOH, I can spend a whole day with Chopin or Schubert craving for more...  ???

Bottom line, I guess I'm much more Gurnian than I would like to publicly acknowledge.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2011, 04:39:18 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 03, 2011, 04:37:34 AM
Gurn, confession --- and repentance --- time.  :P

Bless you, my son...  0:)

If it had been me, I would still be in hospital, or possibly prison. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 06, 2011, 02:39:16 PM
Just left the quote below in the 'Listening Thread' - a couple of pages back in this thread Gurn & I had a brief exchange on these works which stimulated me to buy the Apex recordings (from the Finlandia label) - acquired V. 1 & 3, and have V. 2 on order - my thoughts below and Gurn's on previous posts here -  :D


QuoteBeethoven, LV - Cello & Keyboard Works, V.1 w/ Anssi Karttunen on a Benjamin Banks cello, ca. 1770 (London) using a J. Dodd bow (London, ca. 1790) & Tuija Hakkila on a fortepiano, Paul McNulty reproduction, 1990, after a 5-octave instrument by Anton Walter, 1795 - on the inexpensive Apex label (Finlandia Records, 1994 recording) - was able to obtain Vols. 1 & 3, and just put in an order for Vol. 2; believe a Gurn recommendation in another thread - well, if you want PI instrument recordings of Ludwig's complete works for this combination of instruments and at bargain prices, then check out the Apex label -  :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BeethovenCelloPianoV1/1177484178_L5drw-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2011, 04:06:27 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 06, 2011, 02:39:16 PM
Just left the quote below in the 'Listening Thread' - a couple of pages back in this thread Gurn & I had a brief exchange on these works which stimulated me to buy the Apex recordings (from the Finlandia label) - acquired V. 1 & 3, and have V. 2 on order - my thoughts below and Gurn's on previous posts here -  :D

Yes, excellent recordings, Dave. I've been through them 3 or 4 times now, like them better every time. As for labels, Apex picks up re-issues from more than one. Not sure what all, but they are always PI, and always good! I have Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus, and Ton Koopman/Amsterdam Baroque among many others. Without knowing for sure, I think they must be part of Warner... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Ames Quartet - Fauré Op 045 Quartet #2 in g for Piano & Strings 3rd mvmt - Adagio non troppo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 12, 2011, 06:42:27 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 06, 2011, 02:39:16 PM
Just left the quote below in the 'Listening Thread' - a couple of pages back in this thread Gurn & I had a brief exchange on these works which stimulated me to buy the Apex recordings (from the Finlandia label) - acquired V. 1 & 3, and have V. 2 on order - my thoughts below and Gurn's on previous posts here -  :D

Well, V. 2 showed up recently in my mailbox - planning to relisten to all 3 volumes of these Beethoven Cello Works (includes all of the cello sonatas + 3 sets of variations) - several posts back a brief description of the performers and instruments used); dates from the mid-1990s under the Finlandia label; now Warner Classics reissues on Apex at just ridiculously low prices on the Amazon MP - the fortepiano is excellent - an inexpensive acquisition for those interested!   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BeethovenCelloPianoV2/1184622755_uQFvy-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2011, 07:37:35 AM
Glad you like those, Dave. I think they're keepers.

But on the opposite side of the fence, due to factors to be seen, is this disk which I got yesterday:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnPiccoloConcertoWienDivertimentiaQuattro.jpg)

When Haydn joined a group of friends for a summer trip to Fürnberg Castle, the time seemed right to toss off some fun music to play. The result was a group (over 2 seasons) of <>10 divertimentos. They were so popular that it was inevitable that they got pirated by publishers and padded out to be 2 groups of 6 and released as his Op 1 & 2. And they are still occasionally performed today as his early string quartets, like this:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51-6QnqDzUL.jpg)

But they aren't really string quartets, since there is no cello part, the bass was originally intended for a violone (string bass, double bass, contrabass, 16' bass etc.). Also, they are in 5 movements, and the movement design is a palindrome: fast:minuet:slow:minuet:fast, which was the standard layout for a divertimento. They are thus 'Divertimenti á Quattro', which is to say 'entertainment music for 4 (voices)'.

These versions by Piccolo Divertimento Wien are superb. The bass line played this way is a different critter, acting more the part of a solid line that the other parts can play off from, rather than when played by the cello, when it becomes one of the other parts, so to speak.

One day a group, possibly even this one, will see the intrinsic value in performing the entire group. It will be a great addition to the Haydn discography. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Piccolo Concerto Wien - Hob 03 07 Divertimento á 4 in D for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 12, 2011, 09:09:28 AM
Gurn - just curious concerning your previous post on the Haydn Divertimenti - the first 3 discs in the Buchberger Quartet box lists the works as 'Quartet Divertimento' - these are listed as Op. 1 & 2 - there are a total of 10 on the trio of CDs and each work does have 5 movements; of course theses are played w/ the usual string quartet instruments, including cello.  I'm assuming that these are the same compositions but just not played as intended originally?  Thanks - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2011, 09:49:57 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 12, 2011, 09:09:28 AM
Gurn - just curious concerning your previous post on the Haydn Divertimenti - the first 3 discs in the Buchberger Quartet box lists the works as 'Quartet Divertimento' - these are listed as Op. 1 & 2 - there are a total of 10 on the trio of CDs and each work does have 5 movements; of course theses are played w/ the usual string quartet instruments, including cello.  I'm assuming that these are the same compositions but just not played as intended originally?  Thanks - Dave  :D

Yes, that's it, Dave. I hadn't really got to listening to the Buchbergers versions of those yet   :-[   But I also have this excellent set, which only lacks gut strings to be wonderful:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/StringdivertimentosKlein.jpg)

It's funny, I bought this at BRO for pennies. Now when I see it at all, the most recent price was $85! :o  But my opinion, based on nothing more than my own prejudices and thinking about it, is that even if they call them 'divertimentos', if they use a cello and include it in a box of string quartets, then they are implying that they are merely early string quartets. It is exactly analogous to the early piano trios. Haydn said that Op 9 were his first string quartets, so I think we have to go with that. :)

I'll also mention this one that his a different slant on authentic:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnOthersLuteWorkscover.jpg)

It contains Hob III:06 in C major. The instrumentation though is lute, violin &cello. Whilst this was not the original, knowing that time historically I readily imagine it having been played that way, even with Haydn sitting on the sofa in the corner. In any case, this is a nice album including the other works too. :)


8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 12, 2011, 02:09:16 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 12, 2011, 09:49:57 AM
Yes, that's it, Dave. I hadn't really got to listening to the Buchbergers versions of those yet   :-[   But I also have this excellent set, which only lacks gut strings to be wonderful:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/StringdivertimentosKlein.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41nd3vypXjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It's funny, I bought this at BRO for pennies. Now when I see it at all, the most recent price was $85! :o  But my opinion, based on nothing more than my own prejudices and thinking about it, is that even if they call them 'divertimentos', if they use a cello and include it in a box of string quartets, then they are implying that they are merely early string quartets. It is exactly analogous to the early piano trios. Haydn said that Op 9 were his first string quartets, so I think we have to go with that. :) ........................


Yep, just checked the Amazon MP - same recording (above right) w/ different cover art - couple of 'new' copies being offered @ $248!  I cannot imagine the IQ of a seller thinking that he or she is going to make a purchase - what is the point?  And the Arte Nova label - I imagine that the BRO price was about $3?  BTW - just checked BRO searching on 'Haydn Hamburg' - 2 Arte Nova discs did come up but not the one above, unfortunately -   :-\  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2011, 02:17:31 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 12, 2011, 02:09:16 PM
Yep, just checked the Amazon MP - same recording (above right) w/ different cover art - couple of 'new' copies being offered @ $248!  I cannot imagine the IQ of a seller thinking that he or she is going to make a purchase - what is the point?  And the Arte Nova label - I imagine that the BRO price was about $3?  BTW - just checked BRO searching on 'Haydn Hamburg' - 2 Arte Nova discs did come up but not the one above, unfortunately -   :-\  Dave

Yeah, same one. I haven't figured it out, exactly. I mean, they're good but they don't knock your d*** in the dirt. I was scratching my head when I first saw it. ???  Anyway, $9.96, IIRC for the 4 disk set. Back when I bought it, the 4 individual disks were available on the Marketplace for pretty cheap too. I went with BRO to save shelf space... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Natalie Clein (Cello) / Julius Drake (Piano) - Kodály Op 08 Sonata for Solo Cello 1st mvmt - Allegro maestoso ma appassionato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on February 12, 2011, 04:59:49 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 12, 2011, 02:17:31 PM
Yeah, same one. I haven't figured it out, exactly. I mean, they're good but they don't knock your d*** in the dirt. I was scratching my head when I first saw it. ???  Anyway, $9.96, IIRC for the 4 disk set. Back when I bought it, the 4 individual disks were available on the Marketplace for pretty cheap too. I went with BRO to save shelf space... :-\
Wow, the Gurnatron is back!  (No one likes a dirty duck.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2011, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 12, 2011, 04:59:49 PM
Wow, the Gurnatron is back!  (No one likes a dirty duck.)

:D  Yeah, well I was taking Rob's advice from the Bugs thread, since I got knocked off a couple of times lately. It had to be something I would remember myself... :)

Listening to anything good lately, David?

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Smith \ Banchini \ Plantier \ Courvoisier \ Dieltens - Hob 03 006 Cassation in C for Lute, Violin & Cello 3rd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2011, 03:52:45 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 06, 2011, 02:39:16 PM
Just left the quote below in the 'Listening Thread' - a couple of pages back in this thread Gurn & I had a brief exchange on these works which stimulated me to buy the Apex recordings (from the Finlandia label) - acquired V. 1 & 3, and have V. 2 on order - my thoughts below and Gurn's on previous posts here -  :D

That set is tempting, but I have two (three, if you count Wispelwey) sets on period instruments. And Bylsma seems unbeatable to me. And he recorded twice the five cello sonatas... Thanks God.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21X1MACQW1L._SL300_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X5X9W4MQL._SS300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517z%2BFoXy3L._SS300_.jpg)

But I did some research and I will buy that set  ;D because it includes every Beethoven's piece written for cello and fortepiano. Not just the five sonatas, but also the three series of variations and two other works for the same combination of instruments.

Sonatas for Pianoforte & Violoncello:
    * the two sonatas opus 5 no. 1 and no. 2;
    * the sonata opus 69;
    * the two sonatas opus 102 no. 1 and no. 2;

Variations:
    * the 12 variations on "Ein Mädchen oder Weibchen" opus 66, after the opera "The Magic Flute" of Mozart;
    * the 12 variations on "See the conqu'ring hero comes" WoO 45, after the oratorio "Judas Maccabaeus" by Haendel;
    * the 7 variations on "Bei Männern, welche Liebe fühlen WoO 46.
(Bylsma just includes the 12 variations on "Ein Mädchen oder Weibchen" in his recording with Immerseel)

Two other works for piano and cello:
    * the sonata opus 17, originally for horn but transcribed for a number of other instruments, notably the cello (realized and published in 1807, probably with the agreement of Beethoven);
    * the sonata opus 64, a transcription of the trio for strings opus 3, probably not done by Beethoven himself.  Nevertheless, the composer did not use this opus number for any other work, thus implicitly indicating that he accepted that this work could be included in his repertoire.


(http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Cedes/TheCds_ChamberMusic_Cello.html)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2011, 04:38:31 AM
Antoine,
Yes that is a solid reason to buy it. I have all those Bylsma disks too, especially enjoy the Bilson set. But the Karttunen/Hakkila really is a complete one. I also have the set on Hyperion by Pleeth & Tan which has the variations in it, anyway. Bylsma/Bilson is my favorite, but Karttunen/Hakkila is right behind, plus having the other things in there. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2011, 04:47:51 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 14, 2011, 04:38:31 AM
Antoine,
I have all those Bylsma disks too, especially enjoy the Bilson set.

Me too. IMO, Immerseel is an excellent fortepianist, but his musical personality is less strong than Bylsma. Bilson, on the other hand, is his complete equal. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2011, 04:51:23 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2011, 04:47:51 AM
Me too. IMO, Immerseel is an excellent fortepianist, but his musical personality is less strong than Bylsma. Bilson, on the other hand, is his complete equal.

Interesting concept. I can see it is so. You're good. Really. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2011, 05:04:12 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 14, 2011, 04:51:23 AM
Interesting concept. I can see it is so. :)

At least se non è vero, è bene trovato.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2011, 01:15:36 PM
Inspired by a few other threads...

Call me a reactionary, but... it is my firm conviction, based partially on readings, partially on personal experience and partially on insights --- that in the Baroque, Classical and early Romantic eras (adopting the Gurnian timetable, that would be anything prior to 1850,give or take some fifty years :) ) music was much more interactive and user-friendly than it is nowadays. Moreover, the gap between "high brow" music and "pop" music back then was mucvh smaller than it is nowadays.

What I mean is that most --- dare I say all? Gurn, whaddya say?--- composers of that times wrote a good part of their musical output targetting precisely the cultivated dilettanti of which there were plenty back then.

Let us recall a most striking case in point: much --- if not all --- of Schubert's lieder and chamber music was written for the private enjoyment of his relatives and friends, all of whom were musically literate to the point of playing an instrument or singing.

Let us recall Goldberg Variations, --- se non e vero e ben trovatto --- which allegedly were written as a a cure for Count Kaiserling's insomnia...

Let us recall the innumerable Mozart's compositions for this or that instrument played by this or that Mademoiselle or Monsieur...

Let us recall Blavet's or Quantz's flute sonatas and concertos, written expressly for the cultivated French / German gentleman of the 18th century --- one for whom the flute was as familiar as the credit card is for the Western gentleman of the 21st century...

Let us recall Vivaldi's concertos, written for the female orphans at Ospedale delle Pieta without the slightest thought of immortality and preservation in mind...

Let us recall, generally, those times when music --- which back then was yet far from being "the Classical Canon" --- was not somet distant, esoteric and frightful thing, far and above from the judgment of the common educated people --- but on the contrary, something written exactly for the enjoyment and appraisal of common educated people...

Let us recall those times when "pop" music --- i.e, folk music of Italians, Germans, Englishmen, Frenchmen, Spaniards etc.  --- far from being opposed to "high brow music", was on the contrary a constant and sought-for source of inspiration for composers; those times when this or that "hit" of Haydn or Rossini made its way to the "masses"...

...amd let us compare it with today's situation, when most "classical" music is written as if purposely to make "pop" audiences cringe in horror... and viceversa...

...and let us blame this sad state of things upon Late Romanticism, with its misplaced notions of an artistic genius far and above the common man; of the composer as some sort of high priest and / or philosopher, who has unique access to higher spiritual spheres and whose artistic products are not to be enjoyed and judged by every knowledgeable person, but only by his peers; with its cult for monumentality, for grand-scale works, its rejection of anything that cannot be expressed by less than 150 performers...

...and also upon what followed, namely more and more abstruse, more and more esoteric, more and more un-hummable, more and more ugly (in the proper meaning of the word) music --- as if the essential ingredients that have been feeding music for almost a thousand years, namely clearly recognizable melody, harmony and rythm were some kind of anathema, some kind of "aristocratic" and "bourgeois" features that must be smashed ...

Bottom line, I think that in no other historical time has ever been such a large gap between "classical" music and "pop" music as nowadays... between what "classical music" composers write and what "cultivated dilettanti" are able and willing to play... between Bach's goal "to delight and instruct" and... whatever goal contemporary composers might have in mind, Karl Henning aside.

;D







Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2011, 01:20:49 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2011, 05:04:12 AM
At least se non è vero, è bene trovato.  ;D

Antoine,
If, as I suspect, that means "if it isn't true, at least it sounds good", then couldn't agree more! :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ruf \ Lautenberger &  Nielen \ Beyer 7 Berndt \ Uhl \ Koch \ Hoffman & Irmscher - Hob 07h 2 Concerto in G for 2 Lira organizzata (Naples Version) 1st mvmt - Vivace assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2011, 01:56:07 PM
Eusebius,
Well, first off, if you were expecting an argument against that, you came to the wrong place. :D 

Quote from: Eusebius on February 19, 2011, 01:15:36 PM
Inspired by a few other threads...

Call me a reactionary, but... it is my firm conviction, based partially on readings, partially on personal experience and partially on insights --- that in the Baroque, Classical and early Romantic eras (adopting the Gurnian timetable, that would be anything prior to 1850,give or take some fifty years :) ) music was much more interactive and user-friendly than it is nowadays. Moreover, the gap between "high brow" music and "pop" music back then was much smaller than it is nowadays.

As far as I know, you had back then 2 musics; church/opera/rarified audience music (Group 1) and folk music (Group 2), which would include the pop of today. Many composers of the first group did write some crossover hits, but they were thin on the ground. I think that dance tunes spanned both groups more than anything, and when the upper classes heard a dance they liked (Allemandes and contredanses, for example) then they appropriated them from group 2 to group 1. I don't know of a dance that went the other direction, although I may be ignorant.

QuoteWhat I mean is that most --- dare I say all? Gurn, whaddya say?--- composers of that times wrote a good part of their musical output targetting precisely the cultivated dilettanti of which there were plenty back then.

I certainly dare say it. This is always dependent on your inclusion of Church music into group 1. Otherwise, it is 3 groups and even then, the Churchers and the dilettanti can be equated in this instance. :)

QuoteLet us recall a most striking case in point: much --- if not all --- of Schubert's lieder and chamber music was written for the private enjoyment of his relatives and friends, all of whom were musically literate to the point of playing an instrument or singing.

And his earlier works were composed for the family exclusively, later the school, finally his 'circle' of friends. In every case, Kenner or Liebhaber. Now, it is a frequently glossed over thing that Schubert in his lifetime!! was one of the most published composers in Vienna. This is because while hundreds of his songs were published in the 1820's, none (I say none because it was so little) of his other music was. However, even his Lieder audience was very much capable of coming home from the music shop with a score and sitting down at the family piano and playing and singing these Lieder, many of which are not easy for professionals even today. So even there his audience is certainly refined.

QuoteLet us recall Goldberg Variations, --- se non e vero e ben trovatto --- which allegedly were written as a a cure for Count Kaiserling's insomnia...

Let us recall the innumerable Mozart's compositions for this or that instrument played by this or that Mademoiselle or Monsieur...

Let us recall Blavet's or Quantz's flute sonatas and concertos, written expressly for the cultivated French / German gentleman of the 18th century --- one for whom the flute was as familiar as the credit card is for the Western gentleman of the 21st century...

Let us recall Vivaldi's concertos, written for the female orphans at Ospedale delle Pieta without the slightest thought of immortality and preservation in mind...

Let us recall, generally, those times when music --- which back then was yet far from being "the Classical Canon" --- was not somet distant, esoteric and frightful thing, far and above from the judgment of the common educated people --- but on the contrary, something written exactly for the enjoyment and appraisal of common educated people... 

Well, Mozart would have been the first to tell you "hey, this is how I make my living". So most definitely in that day and age, music was composed for the elite. If you had a college education, you were damned sure elite. Probably the only major group of people who could be distinctly low-class and yet completely understand the music, and in fact be responsible for the creation of much of it without coughing up huge chunks of gold were the musicians. Haydn's string quartets before Op 50, most of Mozart's late chamber music, things of that nature were written for other musicians or for themselves, not for performance in public, but for sitting around on Saturday night having a good time, so to speak. But as for 'common, educated people', there is unquestionably a time period where that is a perfect definition of the audience. It is after Mozart though, and before Brahms. Even in England. The Haydn Salomon concerts were "public", but most of the public was excluded by class or financial status. :-\

QuoteLet us recall those times when "pop" music --- i.e, folk music of Italians, Germans, Englishmen, Frenchmen, Spaniards etc.  --- far from being opposed to "high brow music", was on the contrary a constant and sought-for source of inspiration for composers; those times when this or that "hit" of Haydn or Rossini made its way to the "masses"...

Yup, themes from folk music were all the rage. Haydn was big on it, and after him, lots of others. :)

Quote...amd let us compare it with today's situation, when most "classical" music is written as if purposely to make "pop" audiences cringe in horror... and viceversa...

...and let us blame this sad state of things upon Late Romanticism, with its misplaced notions of an artistic genius far and above the common man; of the composer as some sort of high priest and / or philosopher, who has unique access to higher spiritual spheres and whose artistic products are not to be enjoyed and judged by every knowledgeable person, but only by his peers; with its cult for monumentality, for grand-scale works, its rejection of anything that cannot be expressed by less than 150 performers...

...and also upon what followed, namely more and more abstruse, more and more esoteric, more and more un-hummable, more and more ugly (in the proper meaning of the word) music --- as if the essential ingredients that have been feeding music for almost a thousand years, namely clearly recognizable melody, harmony and rythm were some kind of anathema, some kind of "aristocratic" and "bourgeois" features that must be smashed ...

Let's just blame the French and get it over with... ;D   But seriously, I would say that art music was a victim of its own success. Humans as a species have a strong tendency towards making anything that is popular get bigger and bigger until it collapses under its own weight. So to say that the Romantics created a Jabba the Hut is hard to deny. Thousands will argue with your statements on the ugliness of modern music. I try to find vestiges of the old music that have lived on else been modified little enough to still recognize. 

QuoteBottom line, I think that in no other historical time has ever been such a large gap between "classical" music and "pop" music as nowadays... between what "classical music" composers write and what "cultivated dilettanti" are able and willing to play... between Bach's goal "to delight and instruct" and... whatever goal contemporary composers might have in mind, Karl Henning aside.

;D

Can't disagree with that. I remember a time in the 70's when an occasional pop song would incorporate a classical theme (Eric Carmen's "All by Myself" using the second movement theme from Rach-y PC 2 for example). But that didn't last long, it was just a fad. And I can't imagine a composer these days using even some good little themes from a Gaga tune. It would be nice, but it ain't happenin'.

8)

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Now playing:
Ruf \ Lautenberger &  Nielen \ Beyer 7 Berndt \ Uhl \ Koch \ Hoffman & Irmscher - Hob 07h 2 Concerto in G for 2 Lira organizzata (Naples Version) 2nd mvmt - Adagio ma non troppo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 02:15:49 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 19, 2011, 01:20:49 PM
Antoine,
If, as I suspect, that means "if it isn't true, at least it sounds good", then couldn't agree more! :D

I think it is a quite faithful translation, Gurn. It could also be translated as "if it's not true, at least it's well invented".  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2011, 02:19:29 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 02:15:49 PM
I think it is a quite faithful translation, Gurn. It could also be translated as "if it's not true, at least it's well invented".  :)

Ah yes, nuance. :)  In my head I was thinking "if it isn't true, it sounds like it should be" but I figured that was wrong. Still, if it wasn't true, it sounded as though it should have been. :D

8)

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Haydn, Franz Joseph - Hob 08 03 March for the Prince of Wales
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 02:43:35 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 19, 2011, 02:19:29 PM
Ah yes, nuance. :)  In my head I was thinking "if it isn't true, it sounds like it should be" but I figured that was wrong. Still, if it wasn't true, it sounded as though it should have been. :D

Oh, I think that's perfect.

Sometimes, during some meetings, especially among lawyers, I like to shock the people and I say: "Truth is not a quality of facts, but of the logical propositions. In other words, the truth is an attribute of language, not of what we call "reality". Facts are not true or false, they simply exist or not". Incredibly, people invariably react indignant against this kind of statements...  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 02:54:23 PM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 19, 2011, 01:15:36 PM
Inspired by a few other threads...

Interesting ideas. I will see if I find some time to write some ideas of mine about these same issues.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on February 19, 2011, 02:56:48 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 02:43:35 PM
Sometimes, during some meetings, especially among lawyers, I like to shock the people and I say: "Truth is not a quality of facts, but of the logical propositions. In other words, the truth is an attribute of language, not of what we call "reality". Facts are not true or false, they simply exist or not". Incredibly, people invariably react indignant against this kind of statements...  :)

And languages are plastic. When a word like "truth" acts as a totem, of course people will get hot and bothered about it.

Sounds like someone has been sitting up nights reading Carnap or Ayer!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2011, 02:57:57 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 02:43:35 PM
Oh, I think that's perfect.

Sometimes, during some meetings, especially among lawyers, I like to shock the people and I say: "Truth is not a quality of facts, but of the logical propositions. In other words, the truth is an attribute of language, not of what we call "reality". Facts are not true or false, they simply exist or not". Incredibly, people invariably react indignant against this kind of statements...  :)

Well, that is certainly true (or seems as though it should be). Of course, among people whose profession it is to make words become truth despite the reality, such a statement is anathema, since it illuminates the underlying fiber, which should never be done, at least, not out loud!   :D

8)

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Orchestra of the Mariinsky Theater / Gergiev  Gautier Capuçon  (Cello) - Tchaikovsky Op 33 Variations in A on a Rococo Theme for Cello & Orchestra pt 3 - Variation II: Tempo della Thema
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 03:18:20 PM
Quote from: chasman on February 19, 2011, 02:56:48 PM
Sounds like someone has been sitting up nights reading Carnap or Ayer!

Yes, I love those guys of the Circle of Vienna and the Analytic philosophy, especially Bertrand Russell, G.E Moore and that ungrateful son named Ludwig Wittgenstein. I think the most important influence during my legal studies was Hans Kelsen, a Viennese positivist, IMO the most important legal philosopher of the XXth century.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on February 19, 2011, 03:29:12 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 03:18:20 PM
Yes, I love those guys of the Circle of Vienna and the Analytic philosophy, especially Bertrand Russell, G.E Moore and that ungrateful son named Ludwig Wittgenstein. I think the most important influence during my legal studies was Hans Kelsen, a Viennese positivist, IMO the most important legal philosopher of the XXth century.  :)

I studied Russell's logical atomism and the Tractatus, and was attracted but not caught by them. I preferred the antifoundational screeds of later decades, including those of the ungrateful son! Thus my avatar's epigraph: Goethe's Faust via Wittgenstein's On Certainty.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2011, 08:24:58 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 19, 2011, 01:56:07 PM
Eusebius,
Well, first off, if you were expecting an argument against that, you came to the wrong place. :D 

Actually I was sure I will receive your qualified approval, but had I posted it in a more populated thread I'd have been undoubtedly lacerated in the public square.  :D

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2011, 02:54:23 PM
Interesting ideas. I will see if I find some time to write some ideas of mine about these same issues.  :)

Please do.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2011, 08:28:45 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 20, 2011, 08:24:58 AM
Actually I was sure I will receive your qualified approval, but had I posted it in a more populated thread I'd have been undoubtedly lacerated in the public square.  :D

Please do.

Yeah, that's what I figured. :)  Some of that stuff was controversial even for ME!  :o    0:)

8)

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Czech PO \ Kletzki - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai - "Ode to Joy"
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2011, 08:31:35 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 20, 2011, 08:28:45 AM
Yeah, that's what I figured. :)  Some of that stuff was controversial even for ME!  :o    0:)

I warned you about being provocative.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2011, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 20, 2011, 08:31:35 AM
I warned you about being provocative.  :D

That's OK, I'll give you a forum for your completely OTT controversial views, you radical, you!  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 20, 2011, 09:17:37 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 20, 2011, 08:28:45 AM
Some of that stuff was controversial even for ME!  :o

If you don't mind my asking, which were the parts that you found controversial? I don't intend to carry on arguing for or against anything that you may point out, it's just for the ol' curiosity's sake. You may PM me if you wish, if you feel that we are moving beyond the bounds of the Corner. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2011, 09:22:24 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 20, 2011, 09:17:37 AM
If you don't mind my asking, which were the parts that you found controversial? I don't intend to carry on arguing for or against anything that you may point out, it's just for the ol' curiosity's sake. You may PM me if you wish, if you feel that we are moving beyond the bounds of the Corner. :)

No, Gurn, please reply here --- I'm interested as well. Oh, and Navneeth, please feel free to argue.  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on February 20, 2011, 09:25:01 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 20, 2011, 09:17:37 AM
If you don't mind my asking, which were the parts that you found controversial?

Certain persons get their feathers very ruffled at any suggestion that ugliness in music and the modern negation of art as a source of comfort entertainment, have contributed to creating a greater distance between the artist and the audience.

I was pretty surprised to be reading that the late romantics are to blame for their sanctification of the composer as a sort of creative god who returns from the wilderness with Important Music, but it does make a lot of sense. However late romantic I may be myself!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2011, 09:25:39 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 20, 2011, 09:17:37 AM
If you don't mind my asking, which were the parts that you found controversial? I don't intend to carry on arguing for or against anything that you may point out, it's just for the ol' curiosity's sake. You may PM me if you wish, if you feel that we are moving beyond the bounds of the Corner. :)

Oh no, I don't mind saying. I don't make value judgments about modern music as to its being ugly or not. As you can tell by the way I responded to that section, I neither agreed nor disagreed with Eusebius there. My personal belief is that my liking or disliking something neither adds to nor subtracts from its inherent 'beauty'. So I just let it go; someone, somewhere, finds it absolutely lovely!  :D   However, I do agree with him vis-a-vis the disappearance of the desire to please the audience. If you read about Haydn, for example, you will see that if he didn't please the audience, he would have quit altogether. 

8)

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Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 23 #2 Sonata in F 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2011, 09:31:44 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 20, 2011, 09:25:39 AM
I don't make value judgments about modern music as to its being ugly or not.

That was indeed the most provocative part. For the record, I do like a lot of modern music. And Late Romantics as well. So please, gents, don't judge me too harsh.  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 20, 2011, 09:34:02 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 20, 2011, 09:25:39 AM
Oh no, I don't mind saying. I don't make value judgments about modern music as to its being ugly or not. As you can tell by the way I responded to that section, I neither agreed nor disagreed with Eusebius there. My personal belief is that my liking or disliking something neither adds to nor subtracts from its inherent 'beauty'. So I just let it go; someone, somewhere, finds it absolutely lovely!  :D   However, I do agree with him vis-a-vis the disappearance of the desire to please the audience. If you read about Haydn, for example, you will see that if he didn't please the audience, he would have quit altogether.

Much appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2011, 09:36:44 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2011, 09:25:01 AM
Certain persons get their feathers very ruffled at any suggestion that ugliness in music and the modern negation of art as a source of comfort entertainment, have contributed to creating a greater distance between the artist and the audience.

I was pretty surprised to be reading that the late romantics are to blame for their sanctification of the composer as a sort of creative god who returns from the wilderness with Important Music, but it does make a lot of sense. However late romantic I may be myself!

As much as it may surprise us today, critics didn't exist much before ETA Hoffmann, and then later ones like Hanslick held tremendous power to sway musical opinion. If you are interested in that phenomenon (the rise of the Canon of Great Music and art for art's sake and all that there) at all, I will do my best to find the title of the book I read on it several years ago now. It was really quite fascinating of itself, and when you see the state that music is in today, that's where the roots are. :)

8)

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Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 23 #3 Sonata in Eb 1st mvmt - Allegro con vivicità
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on February 20, 2011, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 link=topic=11225.msg492811#msg492811If you are interested in that phenomenon (the rise of the Canon of Great Music and art for art's sake and all that there) at all, I will do my best to find the title of the book I read on it several years ago now. It was really quite fascinating of itself, and when you see the state that music is in today, that's where the roots are. :)

Hate to trouble you, but I am very interested in that. It sort of sits on the border of a research project of my own right now.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2011, 09:41:55 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 20, 2011, 09:31:44 AM
That was indeed the most provocative part. For the record, I do like a lot of modern music. And Late Romantics as well. So please, gents, don't judge me too harsh.  0:)

I don't blame you for saying it. Certainly, taken at face value it has a harsh element of truthiness to it. But then when one realizes the subjective aspect of it, it becomes a harder position to hold. I also like a modest amount of modern music, and substantially more Late Romantic. Can't compare with Classical Era or Early Romantic though. The Gurnian is the Golden Age, and I like gold... :D

8)

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Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 23 #3 Sonata in Eb 2nd mvmt - Air & 6 Variations: Allegretto vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2011, 09:44:20 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 20, 2011, 09:40:51 AM
Hate to trouble you, but I am very interested in that. It sort of sits on the border of a research project of my own right now.

OK, check back at this space in a little bit and I will have something. Problem with reading so many books is remembering what I read where, after a couple of years. Oh, I know, it's easy now. You'll see. :D

8)

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Constantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 24 #1 Sonata in F 1st mvmt - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 20, 2011, 09:47:31 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 20, 2011, 09:44:20 AM
Problem with reading so many books is remembering what I read where, after a couple of years.

You should join Good Reads (http://www.goodreads.com/). :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2011, 09:55:32 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 20, 2011, 09:47:31 AM
You should join Good Reads (http://www.goodreads.com/). :)

Looks interesting. I may do. Apparently there actually IS a finite amount of baggage space available in the brain. I was hoping I could stretch mine out until I didn't need that much any more, but no... :-\  :)   Thanks,

8)

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Constantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 24 #1 Sonata in F 3rd mvmt - Arietta con Variazione: Vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2011, 05:51:51 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 21, 2011, 04:30:59 AM
I was reading an excellent essay on Haydn's reception just last week. The term 'sublime' comes up in a couple of spots, and its usage there is based on the fact that his entire orchestra was playing full out suddenly. Well, the author was quick to point out that the entire orchestra for that work was 19 people, and when played identically today it makes little or no impression at all, and yet writers from the time are quite amazed at the din that was created at that particular point. It wouldn't have been any different with Mozart. :)

That's another mishap that Late Romanticism is to be blamed for: it drowned us in an ocean of sounds of such magnitude as to nearly completely obliterate our ability to see greatness and sublimity in the smaller forces of the past.  How could the poor 19 fiddlers of Haydn surprise and impress an ear brought up on an orchestral sound where the brass section alone far exceeds that number?  ;D :P
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 05:56:06 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 20, 2011, 09:47:31 AM
You should join Good Reads (http://www.goodreads.com/). :)

Yup.  What is your name over there Opus 106?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on February 21, 2011, 05:58:46 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 21, 2011, 05:51:51 AM
That's another mishap that Late Romanticism is to be blamed for: it drowned us in an ocean of sounds of such magnitude as to nearly completely obliterate our ability to see greatness and sublimity in the smaller forces of the past.  How could the poor 19 fiddlers of Haydn surprise and impress an ear brought up on an orchestral sound where the brass section alone far exceeds that number?  ;D :P

Of course, it is not merely the composers who are to blame; today we listen to music in such gargantuan concert halls that were an orchestra of 19 to play a Haydn symphony, the people in the balcony would have to strain their ears. Concerts were staged in much smaller spaces - or, of course, in the largest space of all, the outdoors - and not to an audience of thousands except in very rare and remarkable circumstances. If "music rooms" ever came back in fashion, I'd be in line to buy a ticket!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2011, 06:01:23 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 21, 2011, 05:51:51 AM
That's another mishap that Late Romanticism is to be blamed for: it drowned us in an ocean of sounds of such magnitude as to nearly completely obliterate our ability to see greatness and sublimity in the smaller forces of the past.  How could the poor 19 fiddlers of Haydn surprise and impress an ear brought up on an orchestral sound where the brass section alone far exceeds that number?  ;D :P

Oh, there's no doubt that we're ruined in that regard. It is very difficult to appreciate 18th century music on its own terms, the best efforts of PI musicians notwithstanding. We are simply ruined.

In 1998 or so, I went to a concert in Atlanta (Atlanta SO / Levi). They opened with a Haydn symphony (#98, IIRC) which they blessedly played with 33 players on stage. I know, I counted. Later, in the second half, they played Franck's "Le Chasseur Maudit" and did a splendid job, I might add. In contrast, there were 39 violins on the stage for it. 33 musicians v 39 violins. Things were different then. 20 years earlier, they would have played the Haydn with 39 violins too. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 06:06:08 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 21, 2011, 05:58:46 AM
Of course, it is not merely the composers who are to blame; today we listen to music in such gargantuan concert halls that were an orchestra of 19 to play a Haydn symphony, the people in the balcony would have to strain their ears. Concerts were staged in much smaller spaces - or, of course, in the largest space of all, the outdoors - and not to an audience of thousands except in very rare and remarkable circumstances. If "music rooms" ever came back in fashion, I'd be in line to buy a ticket!

Correct, but most concert halls are only a third filled each night....they still ask ask $66 or up for a nice seat (and that is in Colorado....we are not talking NY or London or Vienna, etc)....so, if you think about it, not much has changed in 300+ years and a smaller ensamble would work for the royalty bourgeoisie patrons that can afford it on a regular basis during these economic times. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2011, 06:07:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 21, 2011, 05:58:46 AM
Of course, it is not merely the composers who are to blame; today we listen to music in such gargantuan concert halls that were an orchestra of 19 to play a Haydn symphony, the people in the balcony would have to strain their ears. Concerts were staged in much smaller spaces - or, of course, in the largest space of all, the outdoors - and not to an audience of thousands except in very rare and remarkable circumstances. If "music rooms" ever came back in fashion, I'd be in line to buy a ticket!

Very true! And --- count me in.  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2011, 06:09:44 AM
Quote from: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 06:06:08 AM
Correct, but most concert halls are only a third filled each night....they still ask ask $66 or up for a nice seat (and that is in Colorado....we are not talking NY or London or Vienna, etc)....so, if you think about it, not much has changed in 300+ years and a smaller ensamble would work for the royalty bourgeoisie patrons that can afford it on a regular basis during these economic times. ;D

On the contrary, it changed a lot: Prince Eszterhazy asked nothing from his guests...  ;D :P
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 06:18:09 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on February 21, 2011, 06:09:44 AM
On the contrary, it changed a lot: Prince Eszterhazy asked nothing from his guests...  ;D :P

That is because getting there and parking was a "bear". ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2011, 06:23:47 AM
Quote from: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 06:18:09 AM
That is because getting there and parking was a "bear". ;D

Just 2 days of hard driving of the horses! Plus, I hear that you had to know someone... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2011, 06:28:33 AM
Quote from: noeL on February 21, 2011, 06:25:49 AM
The gap that I find most important is the gap separating our world of technology and the world of Haydn, which was a quieter world, a world with less industrialization and nothing like the technological overtaking of our lives.  It was a time where most things were handmade, and while life was arguably much harder physically and rougher, it was possibly more connected to the value of what went into making anything and most people, all but the aristocracy, did not have the luxury of "collecting" they made-do with what they had for as long as possible and did not waste things, or treat them lightly.

This is interesting.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on February 21, 2011, 06:32:38 AM
Quote from: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 05:56:06 AM
Yup.  What is your name over there Opus 106?

Hi, Bill. It's Navneeth (http://www.goodreads.com/navneethc). :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on February 25, 2011, 09:40:24 AM
I'm just discovering Joseph Eybler, his first two symphonies and  C minor Quartet.

This is wonderful stuff.


(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/7/7/b/761203710423_300.jpg)

(http://www.analekta.com/media/analekta/album/t1600/Joseph-Leopold-Eybler-Quatuor-A-Cordes-Op-1-Nos-1-3-PAL431.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2011, 09:49:18 AM
Quote from: Leo K on February 25, 2011, 09:40:24 AM
I'm just discovering Joseph Eybler, his first two symphonies and D minor Quartet.

This is wonderful stuff.


(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/7/7/b/761203710423_300.jpg)

(http://www.analekta.com/media/analekta/album/t1600/Joseph-Leopold-Eybler-Quatuor-A-Cordes-Op-1-Nos-1-3-PAL431.jpg)

Leo,
Those are both excellent disks. Eybler is not a total unknown, but he is far less known than he deserves to be. I quite enjoy his music. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on February 25, 2011, 10:22:18 AM
Quote from: Leo K on February 25, 2011, 09:40:24 AM
I'm just discovering Joseph Eybler, his first two symphonies and  C minor Quartet.

This is wonderful stuff.

I can recommend unreservedly his trio and quintet. I have the CPO recording. There is a similar one on MDG.

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/4e/79/0011794e_medium.jpeg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2011, 03:50:21 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on February 25, 2011, 10:22:18 AM
I can recommend unreservedly his trio and quintet. I have the CPO recording. There is a similar one on MDG.

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/4e/79/0011794e_medium.jpeg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartVeilhan/1204923352_xaKSH-S.jpg)

Currently, I own the 3 discs posted on Eybler and support the recommendations - are any other discs of interest?

Mozart & Brahms - Clarinet Quintets w/ Jean-Claude Veilhan & Quintette Stadler; the latter on period instruments - especially enjoy the Mozart work w/ a basset clarinet - have several other versions but these on the instruments meant for the original composition w/ Stadler on the clarinet of his times always impresses me - budget purchase from BRO - need to look into more of Veilhan's works on this label -  :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 04, 2011, 09:36:09 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on February 25, 2011, 10:22:18 AM
I can recommend unreservedly his trio and quintet. I have the CPO recording. There is a similar one on MDG.

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/4e/79/0011794e_medium.jpeg)

Thanks for the recommend!  I will definitely check this out.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 04, 2011, 09:37:50 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 03, 2011, 03:50:21 PM
Currently, I own the 3 discs posted on Eybler and support the recommendations - are any other discs of interest?

Mozart & Brahms - Clarinet Quintets w/ Jean-Claude Veilhan & Quintette Stadler; the latter on period instruments - especially enjoy the Mozart work w/ a basset clarinet - have several other versions but these on the instruments meant for the original composition w/ Stadler on the clarinet of his times always impresses me - budget purchase from BRO - need to look into more of Veilhan's works on this label -  :)

I just realized I havent yet heard the Brahms Clarinet Quintet on period instruments...I will have to check this recording out soon.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 04, 2011, 09:47:11 AM
I have also been enjoying the Masses, Requiems, Opera (Cleofide) and Flute Concerti of J.A. Hasse.

The symphonies of Franz Danzi.

and Fortepiano Concerti from Antonio Rosetti, Ernst Wilhelm Wolf and Johann Naumann from this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pbfg7a7KL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


More and more, I find that my heart is in the 18th Century :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2011, 10:15:33 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 04, 2011, 09:47:11 AM
I have also been enjoying the Masses, Requiems, Opera (Cleofide) and Flute Concerti of J.A. Hasse.

The symphonies of Franz Danzi.

and Fortepiano Concerti from Antonio Rosetti, Ernst Wilhelm Wolf and Johann Naumann from this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pbfg7a7KL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


More and more, I find that my heart is in the 18th Century :)

Oh, that looks like a nice disk, there, Leo. I have Rosetti's concerto, also played by Schornsheim, but as part of a disk with some of his concerti for other instruments. Since I haven't heard anything by Wolf of Naumann I'll have to hunt that up. Thanks!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2011, 10:17:53 AM
This is the one I have, also a nice disk:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/61HFxZGHcQL.jpg)

Amazon only have it as MP3 downloads now.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 05, 2011, 05:29:53 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 04, 2011, 10:17:53 AM
This is the one I have, also a nice disk:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/61HFxZGHcQL.jpg)

Amazon only have it as MP3 downloads now.

8)

I think I saw this on iTunes. I will definitely download this soon, thanks for the recommend.

And I'm sure you will enjoy the Wolf and Naumann  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 05, 2011, 05:35:35 AM
I have been trying to explain my passion for the 18th Century, and obscure composers from that era, to my loving girlfriend, and it's difficult to really convey what I like about it. My passion started when I saw Amadeus in the mid-eighties, and something clicked. I love the 19th Century too, and research that era as much, but there is something about the 18th Century that my heart is really drawn too.



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on March 05, 2011, 05:51:39 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 05, 2011, 05:35:35 AM
I have been trying to explain my passion for the 18th Century, and obscure composers from that era, to my loving girlfriend, and it's difficult to really convey what I like about it. My passion started when I saw Amadeus in the mid-eighties, and something clicked. I love the 19th Century too, and research that era as much, but there is something about the 18th Century that my heart is really drawn too.

Are you talking about 18th Century music only, or in general?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 05, 2011, 06:54:38 AM
Below is part of a post placed in the listening thread that might receive more attention here - not all of the Mozart Violin Sonatas, but the ones in the middle from the late 1770s; period instruments described below - well recorded on an excellent label.  MusicWeb Review HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Apr02/LW_Mozart_ViolinSonatas.htm) - highly recommended w/ one minor complaint about the piano being too much in the background - now listening to these discs a second time and cannot agree; both instruments are wonderfully integrated.  For those who want some of these works on PIs and order from BRO (Berkshire Record Outlet), then still available there for $16 (HERE (http://broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&submit=Find+Item&text=mozart+gatti&filter=all)) -  :D


QuoteMozart, WA - Violin Sonatas (K.301-6; K.359-60 on 2 discs w/ Laura Alvini on an Anton Walter fortepiano, Vienna ca. 1785 & Enrico Gatti on a Storioni violin, Cremona 1789 - these are the 'middle' sonatas, most composed in the late 1770s - inexpensive purchase from BRO if interested in PI performances - could not find much in the way of reviews but enjoy this label.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartViolinSonGatti/1205508784_JHf6R-O.jpg) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2011, 08:35:04 AM
Since we're loving on the Classical Era lately, I'll bring in a disk that has a very nice cross-section of the early Classical, so you can see some antecedents:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/cover.jpg)

There are sinfonias/symphonies by WF Bach, CPE Bach (2 that are listed as Wq deest, so not ones you normally find), Graun, Hasse, #39 in g by Haydn, and #29 in A by Mozart. Nicely played on period instruments by this group that i am coming to like more and more. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Czech Chamber Philharmonic \ Spurny - Myslivecek Sinfonia #3 in C 3rd mvmt - Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 05, 2011, 09:14:52 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on March 05, 2011, 05:51:39 AM
Are you talking about 18th Century music only, or in general?

I would say in general, with a focus on the pre-classical, and classical era music of that time. Also, I'm interested in the ideas perculating in this era, such as the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, although I haven't dived into that study full on yet.  ;)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2011, 10:00:00 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 05, 2011, 09:14:52 AM
I would say in general, with a focus on the pre-classical, and classical era music of that time. Also, I'm interested in the ideas percolating in this era, such as the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, although I haven't dived into that study full on yet.  ;)

For me, life is way too short to actually read and understand Kant, however, I am always interested in the short discussions of extracts of his when I run across them. The philosophy that was blooming in that time period was indeed fascinating. And the art and music is all of a piece with it. Right now I am reading "The Classical Era" ed. by Neal Zaslaw, which is a series of essays, each one centered around a different city (Paris, Vienna, Mannheim, Naples, Prague (so far)). I highly recommend this book to you in particular, Leo, since you seem to have interests that are quite similar to my own. I think you will like it. :)

Now, for some music. Anyone run across this series yet?:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover4.jpg)

I have the first 4 disks, although now I understand that there is also a 5th one. The playing by Czech Chamber Philharmonic \ Spurny is very fine, as you would expect they seem to have a solid connection to the music from their homeland. The composers are numerous, all Bohemians, of course, and the music is either a sinfonia or a concerto ranging in time from <>1760 to <>1780. I like 'em!  :)

8)


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Now playing:
Philharmonia Orchestra / Mackerras - Dvorak Op 070 Symphony #7 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro maestoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 06, 2011, 06:09:46 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2011, 10:00:00 AM
For me, life is way too short to actually read and understand Kant, however, I am always interested in the short discussions of extracts of his when I run across them. The philosophy that was blooming in that time period was indeed fascinating. And the art and music is all of a piece with it. Right now I am reading "The Classical Era" ed. by Neal Zaslaw, which is a series of essays, each one centered around a different city (Paris, Vienna, Mannheim, Naples, Prague (so far)). I highly recommend this book to you in particular, Leo, since you seem to have interests that are quite similar to my own. I think you will like it. :)


Thanks Gurn for that recommend, I'm placing it in my Amazon cart right now  :D

Yeah, Kant's works are quite expansive to read in full, especially the ones I'd like to dive into, like Critique of Reason, but the excerpts are indeed fascinating. The ideas, philosophy, politics, art and religion from this era are all very interesting. There is so much to explore, but I narrow down my interest into at least music, religion, and philosophy, so I can grasp at something :) I also like the "reasonable enthusiasism" of theologan John Wesley from England.

Back to music, I'm currently reading a fascinating article by Dorothea Link called, "Vienna's Theatrical and Musical Life, 1783-92, as reported by Count Karl Zinzendorf," from the Journal of the Royal Musicial Association, Vol.122, No.2 (1997).

Here is an excerpt:

How representative of Viennese social life are the private entertainments
that Zinzendorf reports? As a highly placed government official
- he was the head of the audit department - and coming from an
old, if impoverished, noble family, Zinzendorf had entree to the best
houses in society. We know that he expected to be invited to all the major
social events, for he also notes those for which he was overlooked. Beyond
that, the entertainments he attended reflect his preference for theatre
over music, particularly instrumental music. He was a keen devotee of
both spoken theatre and opera, having acquired an extensive knowledge
of the contemporary European repertory during his years of work and
travel abroad." But concerts usually drew him more for their social than
for their musical interest. He himself played no instrument, and he was
fully aware of the limits of his musical competence. While he confidently
judges the performances of singers, on purely musical matters he invariably
records his companions' opinions. To the disappointment of
the music historian, Zinzendorf did not take much interest in the great
musical events of his day. He declined to attend Idomeneo. His well-known
inattentiveness at the premiere of Le nozze di Figaro, though it can be excused
by the distraction of his passion for the woman in his box, is unfortunately
symptomatic. The one time he reports hearing Mozart, on
10 February 1788 at the Venetian ambassador's, he says nothing at all
about either the man or his playing. For all that, though, Zinzendorf's
reporting is factually accurate and consistent over half a century, and
thus constitutes an invaluable source of information about musical events
in the context of the time.


Great stuff  ;) I uploaded the full article on my Google Docs page:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B0yHwF9VPRfZZGJjMGUwODctNDRmYi00YmJmLWJkOTktMGYxZjhjNzEzMjY1&hl=en&authkey=COvahd4F
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2011, 06:25:59 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 06, 2011, 06:09:46 AM
Thanks Gurn for that recommend, I'm placing it in my Amazon cart right now + :D

Yeah, Kant's works are quite expansive to read in full, especially the ones I'd like to dive into, like Critique of Reason, but the excerpts are indeed fascinating. The ideas, philosophy, politics, art and religion from this era are all very interesting. There is so much to explore, but I narrow down my interest into at least music, religion, and philosophy, so I can grasp at something :) I also like the "reasonable enthusiasism" of theologan John Wesley from England.

If I was a professional philosopher (rather than an idle ponderer of the meaning of life) I would certainly give Kant the nod over his contemporaries if for no other reason than the massive influence he had on the main characters of the time, either directly or indirectly. Still, it wouldn't take many copies of his books to anchor your house against an ill-wind... :D

QuoteBack to music, I'm currently reading a fascinating article by Dorothea Link called, "Vienna's Theatrical and Musical Life, 1783-92, as reported by Count Karl Zinzendorf," from the Journal of the Royal Musicial Association, Vol.122, No.2 (1997).

.... {snip}...


Yes, I have read his reports with interest over the years, wondering whether he was merely putting on the seeming indifference to the music. I understand it was stylish to be blasé about such things. It would have been a fascinating adventure for a modern-day music lover to have spent some time in his shoes though!  I'm sure Ms. Link would agree. :)

8)


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Now playing:
Staatskapelle Dresden / Blomstedt - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on March 07, 2011, 05:56:43 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 05, 2011, 09:14:52 AM
I would say in general, with a focus on the pre-classical, and classical era music of that time. Also, I'm interested in the ideas perculating in this era, such as the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, although I haven't dived into that study full on yet.  ;)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2011, 10:00:00 AM
Leo, [...] you seem to have interests that are quite similar to my own.

Count me in, gentlemen --- although given that the Industrial Revolution was a child of the Enlightenment I don't have much use for their philosophy, Kant included.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on March 07, 2011, 07:17:58 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on March 07, 2011, 05:56:43 AM
Count me in, gentlemen --- although given that the Industrial Revolution was a child of the Enlightenment I don't have much use for their philosophy, Kant included.  :)
Luddites unite!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on March 07, 2011, 09:37:16 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 07, 2011, 07:17:58 AM
Luddites unite!

;D

Believe me or not, I'm not a Luddite.  0:)

The sin is not that engines are mechanical, but that men are mechanical. - G. K. Chesterton  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on March 07, 2011, 09:54:48 AM
Quote from: Eusebius on March 07, 2011, 09:37:16 AM
;D

Believe me or not, I'm not a Luddite.  0:)

The sin is not that engines are mechanical, but that men are mechanical. - G. K. Chesterton  ;D
Darn!  I am, more-or-less.  But enough of this digression.  ;D 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
I am conflicted when it comes to emulating Mr. Ludd. Deep down I have this feeling that every time that we gain something (through some technological or other breakthrough) that we lose something else. And sometimes the something else is a cost out of all proportion with gains made. Sometimes not, of course. But one never knows in advance, due to the Law of Unintended Consequences. But it is not reasonable to reject what you have now in favor of pining over something that you may never have had in your own time. Wishing is something we do, however, without regard to the difficulties of time travel or the exigencies of life that balanced out the upsides. Here is one I have often heard people pine over:

The Fifth Symphony was premiered on December 22, 1808 at a mammoth concert at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna consisting entirely of Beethoven premieres, and directed by Beethoven himself.[4] The concert went for more than four hours. The two symphonies appeared on the program in reverse order: the Sixth was played first, and the Fifth appeared in the second half.[5] The program was as follows:

   1. The Sixth Symphony
   2. Aria: "Ah, perfido", Op. 65
   3. The Gloria movement of the Mass in C major
   4. The Fourth Piano Concerto (played by Beethoven himself)
   5. (Intermission)
   6. The Fifth Symphony
   7. The Sanctus and Benedictus movements of the C major Mass
   8. A solo piano improvisation played by Beethoven (believed to be the Fantasia Op. 77)
   9. The Choral Fantasy

Makes you want to be there, eh? Despite that there was no heat in the Theater an der Wien and it was probably in the 40's inside. And the people there had a life expectancy of 40 years. And Napoleon would rape Vienna within 5 months. And if you got scratched by the wrong thing, you were certain to die. And, and, and....

It is a tough choice when we look back, not to wish in some way that we could partake.  All we see are the very good things and the very bad things, but we rarely get the context, the nitty-gritty as it were. It would have been cool to spend a couple years with Schubert, if I could have avoided getting syphilis from the same whore who gave it to him... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on March 07, 2011, 10:30:37 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
I am conflicted when it comes to emulating Mr. Ludd. Deep down I have this feeling that every time that we gain something (through some technological or other breakthrough) that we lose something else. And sometimes the something else is a cost out of all proportion with gains made. Sometimes not, of course. But one never knows in advance, due to the Law of Unintended Consequences. But it is not reasonable to reject what you have now in favor of pining over something that you may never have had in your own time. Wishing is something we do, however, without regard to the difficulties of time travel or the exigencies of life that balanced out the upsides. Here is one I have often heard people pine over:

The Fifth Symphony was premiered on December 22, 1808 at a mammoth concert at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna consisting entirely of Beethoven premieres, and directed by Beethoven himself.[4] The concert went for more than four hours. The two symphonies appeared on the program in reverse order: the Sixth was played first, and the Fifth appeared in the second half.[5] The program was as follows:

   1. The Sixth Symphony
   2. Aria: "Ah, perfido", Op. 65
   3. The Gloria movement of the Mass in C major
   4. The Fourth Piano Concerto (played by Beethoven himself)
   5. (Intermission)
   6. The Fifth Symphony
   7. The Sanctus and Benedictus movements of the C major Mass
   8. A solo piano improvisation played by Beethoven (believed to be the Fantasia Op. 77)
   9. The Choral Fantasy

Makes you want to be there, eh?

In those days performances of a new piece of music were often interrupted due to the orchestra being unable to play the music through.  Nowadays an orchestra gets ripped in the papers if some horn entry or another was not done exactly to the reviewers preference.  Given the choice of one or the other, I'll take Karajan.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 07, 2011, 10:57:42 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
I am conflicted when it comes to emulating Mr. Ludd. Deep down I have this feeling that every time that we gain something (through some technological or other breakthrough) that we lose something else. And sometimes the something else is a cost out of all proportion with gains made. Sometimes not, of course. But one never knows in advance, due to the Law of Unintended Consequences. But it is not reasonable to reject what you have now in favor of pining over something that you may never have had in your own time. Wishing is something we do, however, without regard to the difficulties of time travel or the exigencies of life that balanced out the upsides. Here is one I have often heard people pine over:

The Fifth Symphony was premiered on December 22, 1808 at a mammoth concert at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna consisting entirely of Beethoven premieres, and directed by Beethoven himself.[4] The concert went for more than four hours. The two symphonies appeared on the program in reverse order: the Sixth was played first, and the Fifth appeared in the second half.[5] The program was as follows:

   1. The Sixth Symphony
   2. Aria: "Ah, perfido", Op. 65
   3. The Gloria movement of the Mass in C major
   4. The Fourth Piano Concerto (played by Beethoven himself)
   5. (Intermission)
   6. The Fifth Symphony
   7. The Sanctus and Benedictus movements of the C major Mass
   8. A solo piano improvisation played by Beethoven (believed to be the Fantasia Op. 77)
   9. The Choral Fantasy

Makes you want to be there, eh? Despite that there was no heat in the Theater an der Wien and it was probably in the 40's inside. And the people there had a life expectancy of 40 years. And Napoleon would rape Vienna within 5 months. And if you got scratched by the wrong thing, you were certain to die. And, and, and....

It is a tough choice when we look back, not to wish in some way that we could partake.  All we see are the very good things and the very bad things, but we rarely get the context, the nitty-gritty as it were. It would have been cool to spend a couple years with Schubert, if I could have avoided getting syphilis from the same whore who gave it to him... :-\

8)

I've tried to imagine being at that concert, and conclude I would probably be miserable!

I think of that question often, whether I could truly live in the 18th or 19th centuries, knowing life expectancy was short (if you could make it to 40), and medical care was painful (like surgery or tooth problems), not to mention the body odor  :o Also, to be born in the lower class would mean a real tough existence.

It would be great to have a visit though time travel, just to finally witness or see that concert!


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 11:12:05 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 07, 2011, 10:30:37 AM
In those days performances of a new piece of music were often interrupted due to the orchestra being unable to play the music through.  Nowadays an orchestra gets ripped in the papers if some horn entry or another was not done exactly to the reviewers preference.  Given the choice of one or the other, I'll take Karajan.

That too. Or keeping the instrument in tune when it's 45° in there. Not Karajan though... :-\   Oh, OK! :D

Quote from: Leo K on March 07, 2011, 10:57:42 AM
I've tried to imagine being at that concert, and conclude I would probably be miserable!

I think of that question often, whether I could truly live in the 18th or 19th centuries, knowing life expectancy was short (if you could make it to 40), and medical care was painful (like surgery or tooth problems), not to mention the body odor  :o Also, to be born in the lower class would mean a real tough existence.

It would be great to have a visit though time travel, just to finally witness or see that concert!

:D  yes, there is a big downside for the modern. Although I figure they probably couldn't smell body odor back then, it was part of the background 'wall of smell'. Like dumping chamber pots out the window into the gutter, or slipping in horseshit while crossing the street.

Ultimately, yes, it was a damned harsh existence by our standards! I'm in favor of time travel though... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 07, 2011, 11:14:13 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 07, 2011, 10:30:37 AM
In those days performances of a new piece of music were often interrupted due to the orchestra being unable to play the music through. 

It's ironic that when classical music was a lot more central to culture than it is now, playing standards were a lot lower than today, and public concerts were much fewer.

If I had to live in the 18th century, I'd like to be a member of the orchestra on some nobleman's estate. Given the low standards, I think I could manage it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 11:24:21 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 07, 2011, 11:14:13 AM
It's ironic that when classical music was a lot more central to culture than it is now, playing standards were a lot lower than today, and public concerts were much fewer.

If I had to live in the 18th century, I'd like to be a member of the orchestra on some nobleman's estate. Given the low standards, I think I could manage it.

I'm sorry Velimir, but I think those are unacceptable common places. Do you think that Bach's skills as a Baroque organist or Mozart or Clementi abilities like Classical fortepianists have been largely surpassed? Probably many dilettanti, mere amateurs of that age would be better than our professionals. I'm sure. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on March 07, 2011, 11:26:56 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 11:12:05 AM
Like dumping chamber pots out the window into the gutter, or slipping in horseshit while crossing the street.
To hear some of our northern countrymen speak, it's still this way in your neck of the woods, Gurn!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 07, 2011, 11:29:34 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 11:24:21 AM
Do you think that Bach's skills as a Baroque organist or Mozart or Clementi abilities like Classical fortepianists have been largely surpassed?

Bach and Mozart were towering geniuses, therefore exceptions. I wasn't talking about them, but about the rank-&-file players in orchestras. There are plenty of documented examples of orchestras struggling with new pieces by Beethoven, and even Mozart's late symphonies, because they were way harder than what they'd previously played.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 11:48:18 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 07, 2011, 11:26:56 AM
To hear some of our northern countrymen speak, it's still this way in your neck of the woods, Gurn!

That's Louisiana, not Texas. Not a lot of miles, but a world away. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 11:49:17 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 07, 2011, 11:29:34 AM
Bach and Mozart were towering geniuses, therefore exceptions. I wasn't talking about them, but about the rank-&-file players in orchestras. There are plenty of documented examples of orchestras struggling with new pieces by Beethoven, and even Mozart's late symphonies, because they were way harder than what they'd previously played.

Yes, that was because orchestras have almost no time for rehearsals. During the XVIII century music was not something "dead", but a part of the daily public life at school, church or town council. Today Mozart ended up his "Linz" Symphony and it should be performed tomorrow in the night. So, some mistakes were absolutely explainable and expectable.

On the other hand, today every musician who plays Beethoven's Ninth has had the opportunity in order to listen to that work dozzens of times, in live or disc, even before to play one single note.  :)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 11:52:10 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 07, 2011, 11:29:34 AM
Bach and Mozart were towering geniuses, therefore exceptions. I wasn't talking about them, but about the rank-&-file players in orchestras. There are plenty of documented examples of orchestras struggling with new pieces by Beethoven, and even Mozart's late symphonies, because they were way harder than what they'd previously played.

To be a little more fair to the players though, it was common practice to not... practice! There is a letter from Haydn (actually a couple of them) to a Kapellmeister telling him that it would be a good thing to play the piece through at least once because it was rather difficult. The obvious implication being that normally they wouldn't have. Which means that everything was sight-read at performance! Actually, they must have been pretty damned good to be able to do that!   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 11:53:35 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 11:49:17 AM
Yes, that was because orchestras have almost no time for rehearsals. During the XVIII century music was not something "dead", but a part of the daily public life at school, church or town council. Today Mozart ended up his "Linz" Symphony and it should be performed tomorrow in the night. So, some mistakes were absolutely explainable and expectable.

On the other hand, today every musician who plays Beethoven's Ninth has had the opportunity in order to listen to that work dozzens of times, in live or disc, even before to play one single note.  :)

And he was writing down the overture of Don Giovanni in the carriage on the way to the performance... :o

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 12:07:54 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 11:53:35 AM
And he was writing down the overture of Don Giovanni in the carriage on the way to the performance... :o

8)

Additionally. those guys didn't have cable, internet, electricity, movies, animes,  tons of porn, books, newspapers and so on; therefore, they had a lot of time ("free" time, stolen by the Industrial Revolution) to master their respective instruments, even when they were amateurs.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 12:20:29 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 12:07:54 PM
Additionally. those guys didn't have cable, internet, electricity, movies, animes,  tons of porn, books, newspapers and so on; therefore, they had a lot of time ("free" time, stolen by the Industrial Revolution) to master their respective instruments, even when they were amateurs.

No porn? :'(

Well, they did have some of that stuff (especially books), but your point is well taken. Music was the diversion, at least if you were of sufficient class to be able to partake. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 01:00:25 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 12:20:29 PM
No porn? :'(

Oh, yes. To watch naked women has been a favorite hobby of our genre for ages. Sad, but true. Anyway, the amount of pornography available today for common people (not just well-off people, as in the past) is outstanding... and somebody is consuming all that product. These days probably San Fernando Valley is "culturally" that important as Paris was during the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries.  ;D 

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 12:20:29 PM
Well, they did have some of that stuff (especially books)...

Well, that's not totally true regarding books, Gurn. Books were extraordinarily expensive; there was not, for instance, pocket books; there was almost not public libraries, when books were large, they were bought by subscription and so on. So, to read a good book were not an easy option if you were not well-off people...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 01:17:31 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 01:00:25 PM
Oh, yes. To watch naked women has been a favorite hobby of our genre for ages. Sad, but true. Anyway, the amount of pornography available today for common people (not just well-off people, as in the past) is outstanding... and somebody is consuming all that product. These days probably San Fernando Valley is "culturally" that important as Paris was during the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries.  ;D 

Well, that's not totally true regarding books, Gurn. Books were extraordinarily expensive; there was not, for instance, pocket books; there was almost not public libraries, when books were large, they were bought by subscription and so on. So, to read a good book were not an easy option if you were not well-off people...

Well, I was only thinking of the upper classes as being worthy of this discussion, a lesson I learned from reading history...    0:)

The people who could access music could also access books. Everyone else could suck eggs. It really was a sorry state, all things considered. There was very little migration up the ladder. Contrary to modern cinematic portrayals. Even if you miraculously became frightfully well-to-do and got (ie: bought) a nobility patent, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be several generations before the upper crust would deign to speak with you (unless they needed cash). :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 01:33:43 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 01:17:31 PM
Well, I was only thinking of the upper classes as being worthy of this discussion, a lesson I learned from reading history...    0:)

I perfectly know you are a learned moderator, dear Gurn. :) But here we are not necessarily talking about upper classes because "professional" musicians were not a part of those classes and this conversation began talking about them. Certainly, amateurs were another story and they fit in your comment.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 01:37:57 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 01:33:43 PM
I perfectly know you are a learned moderator, dear Gurn. :) But here we are not necessarily talking about upper classes because "professional" musicians were not a part of those classes and this conversation began talking about them. Certainly, amateurs were another story and they fit in your comment.

Could musicians even read? I thought they either blew, plucked, bowed or plinked... :D

Haydn had a huge personal library, well thumbed through and notated in the margins in his handwriting. Apropos of nothing at all....  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2011, 02:06:05 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2011, 01:37:57 PM
Haydn had a huge personal library, well thumbed through and notated in the margins in his handwriting. Apropos of nothing at all....  0:)

Yes, a very exceptional case, Gurn... and I will even accept your hyperbolic "huge" (I know, I know a rhetorical device). ;D

Probably, these days I am especially sensible about these themes because two weeks ago I bought a Kindle and the amount of information available is simply overwhelming. This said by a guy who has made two things in life: to buy books and discs... and who has eventually  read/listened to some of them.  :-[
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on March 08, 2011, 06:57:07 AM
Curiosity re. the foregoing discussion prompted a bit of googling, which turned up this article assessing Haydn's achievement and influence (and personal library), that others like myself who are hardly authorities on the subject might find interesting:  http://www.logosjournal.com/joseph-haydn-two-centuries-later.php
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2011, 07:16:16 AM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 08, 2011, 06:57:07 AM
Curiosity re. the foregoing discussion prompted a bit of googling, which turned up this article assessing Haydn's achievement and influence (and personal library), that others like myself who are hardly authorities on the subject might find interesting:  http://www.logosjournal.com/joseph-haydn-two-centuries-later.php

Nice essay, David!

Hörwartner says the books were read, I can agree with this guy's supposition that the English ones were probably not. That would have been a push. Certainly the German and Italian ones were easy for him though; he spoke Italian like a native, odd in someone who had never been there. :)

Hope everyone takes a few minutes to read that.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on March 08, 2011, 07:25:17 AM
Tangentially, I learn today that Peter Bergman had a dog named Nurgi — an anagram for I, Gurn.

Coincidence? Ask Rob Newman . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2011, 07:29:46 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 08, 2011, 07:25:17 AM
Tangentially, I learn today that Peter Bergman had a dog named Nurgi — an anagram for I, Gurn.

Coincidence? Ask Rob Newman . . . .


It's no coincidence.  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on March 08, 2011, 08:55:03 AM
Whoa, hang on... The Gurnatron has been deactivated? I can't keep up with this. Next I'll be told that Pluto isn't a planet!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2011, 09:31:39 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on March 08, 2011, 08:55:03 AM
Whoa, hang on... The Gurnatron has been deactivated? I can't keep up with this. Next I'll be told that Pluto isn't a planet!

Well, now that we aren't part of the Attack of the Spambots, I went back to my real name. Gurnatron5500TM was coined by some shameless flatterers and served a useful purpose for a while. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 08, 2011, 10:47:42 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D9xrlwfqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have returned to this recording for a third time, since getting it about a month ago. I must say, upon hearing it on my drive to my first job, at 3:30 in the morning, was quite a powerful experience. Very uplifting to my tired soul!

A feature of this requiem I love is the key it's written in, C Major. I love how festive it is, despite the purpose to honor the dead Augustus II.

This review from Amazon, which I respectively quote, is a good introduction:

Review By Giordano Bruno

Augustus II "the Strong" was quite a dude. Prince Elector of Saxony and King of Poland, he gets most of the credit for building Dresden into the architectural and musical capital it was in the 18th Century. His sobriquet was given him not only for his ability to bend and snap horseshoes in his bare hands but also for his polyphiloprogenitivity. (I've stored that word up for years, waiting for this moment.) He did gallop his realm into crisis, it must be confessed, but it was a wild ride. He also ate himself into diabetes and got enormously fat before his sudden death in 1763. There's an ample biography of him on wikipedia, worth a look.

The funeral of Augustus II was the specific occasion for the composition of the Requiem in C major by Johan Adolf Hasse (1699-1783). The Elector's patronage had made Hasse perhaps the most successful and widely known composer of the 18th Century. Hasse paid his royal friend back with a triumphant musical farewell. Just the choice of C major as the key tells a lot; this is not a requiem of grief and penitence. Instead it's a festive procession through the open gates of heaven, richly caparisoned with joy and pomp. Gus the Strong would have loved it. It's also a superb oratorio/cantata, evidence that Hasse's huge success was fully deserved. The forces required are large: full strings and chorus plus pairs of flutes, horns, oboes, trumpets, bassoons, organ, and tympani, with four vocal soloists. The music comprises 21 movements, with maximum variety and color. It was an immense success, as proven by the number of copies that have survived in libraries across[/b] Europe. Gus was buried in Poland, by the way, where his memory is still execrated, but his heart was buried in Dresden.

Also performed on this CD is Hasse's Miserere in E minor, a piece that sounds at times quite a lot like Mozart's Requiem. It's heart-felt, dolorous, and penitential, but wends gracefully toward consolation. Check the dates on Hasse's works and you'll be surprised to find that he was writing "Sturm und Drang" romanticism while Haydn and Mozart were toying with divertimenti. Hasse was enormously productive - there must have been productivity juices in the water supplies of 18th C Europe - and he lived to the age of 84. His music is still not performed as often or as widely as it deserves, and his dozens of operas, I predict, will be the next "discovery" in European theaters.

This performance by the Belgian ensemble Il Fondamento brims with energy and insight. A well-trained period musician might notice a few technical blemishes but would pay them no regard in the presence of such vivid musicality. Especially wonderful are the many duet passages for soprano and alto, sung with luscious harmony by Greta De Reyghere and Susanna Moncayo von Hase. Conductor Paul Dombrecht achieves brilliance also by knitting together the multifarious recitativos, arias, and choruses into a work of monumental unity. The case has been made, music lovers, with this recording and other CDs by 'Il Seminario Musicale' that Johann Adolf Hasse was, and is, a composer of the highest rank.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2011, 03:15:09 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2011, 10:00:00 AM
Now, for some music. Anyone run across this series yet?:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover4.jpg)

I have the first 4 disks, although now I understand that there is also a 5th one. The playing by Czech Chamber Philharmonic \ Spurny is very fine, as you would expect they seem to have a solid connection to the music from their homeland. The composers are numerous, all Bohemians, of course, and the music is either a sinfonia or a concerto ranging in time from <>1760 to <>1780. I like 'em!  :)

Well, Lo and Behold! There IS a volume 5:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BaroqueBohemiacover5.jpg)

Very nice. New conductor, same orchestra, same nice variety of music from early Classical Bohemia. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Vienna Philharmonia Trio - Hob 05:10 Divertimento á tre in F for 2 Violins & Bass 3rd mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on March 09, 2011, 03:26:53 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2011, 09:31:39 AM
Well, now that we aren't part of the Attack of the Spambots, I went back to my real name. Gurnatron5500TM was coined by some shameless flatterers and served a useful purpose for a while. :D
It's over?  Safe to come out now?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2011, 03:50:44 PM
Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 09, 2011, 03:26:53 PM
It's over?  Safe to come out now?

AFAIK, David. I haven't personally been attacked (well, not by spambots anyway  ::) ), and I haven't heard of anyone being done. I'll risk it. With my 17 letter password, let 'em try!   :)

8)

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Now playing:
Vienna Philharmonia Trio - Hob 05 12 Divertimento á tre in E for 2 Violins & Bass 1st mvmt - Adagio cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2011, 05:33:35 PM
Quote from: Leo K on March 08, 2011, 10:47:42 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D9xrlwfqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have returned to this recording for a third time, since getting it about a month ago. I must say, upon hearing it on my drive to my first job, at 3:30 in the morning, was quite a powerful experience. Very uplifting to my tired soul!

A feature of this requiem I love is the key it's written in, C Major. I love how festive it is, despite the purpose to honor the dead Augustus II.

Review By Giordano Bruno....... see above!

Leo - thanks for the Hasse listing - will add to my 'wish list' - I have several of this composer's CDs (both instrumental music which I enjoy) - plus I always enjoy reading Bruno's reviews on Amazon - he is usually an enjoyable read w/ well thought out comments - often others seem to not agree (and I've had a few 'benign' exchanges w/ him) - but his comments will influence me toward a purchase - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 10, 2011, 02:08:06 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2011, 09:31:39 AM
Well, now that we aren't part of the Attack of the Spambots, I went back to my real name. Gurnatron5500TM was coined by some shameless flatterers and served a useful purpose for a while. :D

8)
I know it's off topic, but gurnatron was quite possibly the best screen name for this forum. I would love to add the -atron to ukrneal, but it sounds really stupid. Ukrnealatron? Ukrtron? Nealatron? Bah - and you are giving it up! I would encourage you to keep the name (and may I add it is a more secure name than the other).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2011, 04:23:38 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 08, 2011, 10:47:42 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D9xrlwfqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have returned to this recording for a third time, since getting it about a month ago. I must say, upon hearing it on my drive to my first job, at 3:30 in the morning, was quite a powerful experience. Very uplifting to my tired soul!

A feature of this requiem I love is the key it's written in, C Major. I love how festive it is, despite the purpose to honor the dead Augustus II.

This review from Amazon, which I respectively quote, is a good introduction:

Review By Giordano Bruno

Augustus II "the Strong" was quite a dude. Prince Elector of Saxony and King of Poland, he gets most of the credit for building Dresden into the architectural and musical capital it was in the 18th Century. His sobriquet was given him not only for his ability to bend and snap horseshoes in his bare hands but also for his polyphiloprogenitivity. (I've stored that word up for years, waiting for this moment.) He did gallop his realm into crisis, it must be confessed, but it was a wild ride. He also ate himself into diabetes and got enormously fat before his sudden death in 1763. There's an ample biography of him on wikipedia, worth a look.

The funeral of Augustus II was the specific occasion for the composition of the Requiem in C major by Johan Adolf Hasse (1699-1783). The Elector's patronage had made Hasse perhaps the most successful and widely known composer of the 18th Century. Hasse paid his royal friend back with a triumphant musical farewell. Just the choice of C major as the key tells a lot; this is not a requiem of grief and penitence. Instead it's a festive procession through the open gates of heaven, richly caparisoned with joy and pomp. Gus the Strong would have loved it. It's also a superb oratorio/cantata, evidence that Hasse's huge success was fully deserved. The forces required are large: full strings and chorus plus pairs of flutes, horns, oboes, trumpets, bassoons, organ, and tympani, with four vocal soloists. The music comprises 21 movements, with maximum variety and color. It was an immense success, as proven by the number of copies that have survived in libraries across[/b] Europe. Gus was buried in Poland, by the way, where his memory is still execrated, but his heart was buried in Dresden.

Also performed on this CD is Hasse's Miserere in E minor, a piece that sounds at times quite a lot like Mozart's Requiem. It's heart-felt, dolorous, and penitential, but wends gracefully toward consolation. Check the dates on Hasse's works and you'll be surprised to find that he was writing "Sturm und Drang" romanticism while Haydn and Mozart were toying with divertimenti. Hasse was enormously productive - there must have been productivity juices in the water supplies of 18th C Europe - and he lived to the age of 84. His music is still not performed as often or as widely as it deserves, and his dozens of operas, I predict, will be the next "discovery" in European theaters.

This performance by the Belgian ensemble Il Fondamento brims with energy and insight. A well-trained period musician might notice a few technical blemishes but would pay them no regard in the presence of such vivid musicality. Especially wonderful are the many duet passages for soprano and alto, sung with luscious harmony by Greta De Reyghere and Susanna Moncayo von Hase. Conductor Paul Dombrecht achieves brilliance also by knitting together the multifarious recitativos, arias, and choruses into a work of monumental unity. The case has been made, music lovers, with this recording and other CDs by 'Il Seminario Musicale' that Johann Adolf Hasse was, and is, a composer of the highest rank.

Leo,
I have only a little Hasse. The writing on him is quite ambivalent in some regards, but very flattering in others. Of course, his forte was writing Italian opera that would suit North German tastes, and that in itself points to his talent. :)   But for purely instrumental music, he was not a model of inspiration. I need to go back through my music and see exactly what I do have of his. Thanks for the impetus to do that. :)

8)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 10, 2011, 02:08:06 AM
I know it's off topic, but gurnatron was quite possibly the best screen name for this forum. I would love to add the -atron to ukrneal, but it sounds really stupid. Ukrnealatron? Ukrtron? Nealatron? Bah - and you are giving it up! I would encourage you to keep the name (and may I add it is a more secure name than the other).

OK, you've convinced me. :D  It does roll rather trippingly off the tongue, I agree!   0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on March 10, 2011, 04:26:46 AM
I can haz Hasse?

And what's this? The Gurnatron is back?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2011, 04:32:27 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 10, 2011, 04:26:46 AM
I can haz Hasse?

And what's this? The Gurnatron is back?


In many ways, Hasse is a model of perfection. The 'marriage' of Hasse's music to Metastasio's libretti is a success story of 1750. :)

D minor would be so proud, were he but here today. Back before he totally lost his mind, he was able to focus it on useful things, like giving people new names. Sadly lost now, his memory lives on in Gurnatron5500... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 10, 2011, 04:53:30 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 10, 2011, 04:23:38 AM
OK, you've convinced me. :D  It does roll rather trippingly off the tongue, I agree!   0:)

8)

We need a poll here.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 10, 2011, 04:54:02 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 10, 2011, 04:23:38 AM
OK, you've convinced me. :D  It does roll rather trippingly off the tongue, I agree!   0:)

8)
Yippee!! Must celebrate!   :P
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on March 10, 2011, 05:14:21 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 10, 2011, 04:32:27 AM
D minor would be so proud, were he but here today. Back before he totally lost his mind, he was able to focus it on useful things, like giving people new names. Sadly lost now, his memory lives on in Gurnatron5500... :)

8)

Not here today as in, not a member any longer or... :-\ ?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidRoss on March 10, 2011, 05:35:20 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 10, 2011, 05:14:21 AM
Not here today as in, not a member any longer or... :-\ ?
See http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3519.0.html
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on March 10, 2011, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 10, 2011, 05:35:20 AM
See http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3519.0.html

Gotcha! ;D I was aware the he started the -- what I like to call -- the "weekend" thread, but I found Gurn's wording a bit ambiguous.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2011, 06:08:13 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 10, 2011, 05:40:46 AM
Gotcha! ;D I was aware the he started the -- what I like to call -- the "weekend" thread, but I found Gurn's wording a bit ambiguous.

Back in the day, d minor was a big participant in music discussions. In the last 3 years, I was not aware of any music listening for him, economic conditions totally filled him up. Without that link, I didn't even know his user name any more... :'(

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on March 14, 2011, 08:22:02 AM
This morning I was listening to Haydn 104 and something else by Thomas Fey and the Hiedelberger Symphony Orchestra.  I was struck by the touch Fey has. He has an incisive and even brazen understanding of the music, and instead of pretty much trumping through it ala Bernstein, he went to some depths to expose things in the parts, rather like he was conducting something from the late Romantic period.  I thought this was a fascinating approach, seemingly dismissing the formulaic Classical tradition of the musics structure in favour of adding what can only be described as considerable 'gravitas'.
Excellent stuff.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2011, 09:06:55 AM
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 14, 2011, 08:22:02 AM
This morning I was listening to Haydn 104 and something else by Thomas Fey and the Hiedelberger Symphony Orchestra.  I was struck by the touch Fey has. He has an incisive and even brazen understanding of the music, and instead of pretty much trumping through it ala Bernstein, he went to some depths to expose things in the parts, rather like he was conducting something from the late Romantic period.  I thought this was a fascinating approach, seemingly dismissing the formulaic Classical tradition of the musics structure in favour of adding what can only be described as considerable 'gravitas'.
Excellent stuff.

Fey seems to be a fairly controversial character, at least as far as I've seen here over the years. I have the first 6 disks of his Haydn series (and a couple of his Beethoven, too), and find them to be very entertainingly put together. I suppose it almost seems petty to whinge about missing the tone color of period instruments, but really, that is my only complaint, and a minor one at that. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 14, 2011, 09:12:46 AM
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 14, 2011, 08:22:02 AM
This morning I was listening to Haydn 104 and something else by Thomas Fey and the Hiedelberger Symphony Orchestra.  I was struck by the touch Fey has. He has an incisive and even brazen understanding of the music, and instead of pretty much trumping through it ala Bernstein, he went to some depths to expose things in the parts, rather like he was conducting something from the late Romantic period.  I thought this was a fascinating approach, seemingly dismissing the formulaic Classical tradition of the musics structure in favour of adding what can only be described as considerable 'gravitas'.
Excellent stuff.

Thanks for your thoughts on Fey. I have yet to listen to his Haydn, and now I really want to!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on March 14, 2011, 09:16:08 AM
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 14, 2011, 08:22:02 AM
This morning I was listening to Haydn 104 and something else by Thomas Fey and the Hiedelberger Symphony Orchestra.  I was struck by the touch Fey has. He has an incisive and even brazen understanding of the music, and instead of pretty much trumping through it ala Bernstein, he went to some depths to expose things in the parts, rather like he was conducting something from the late Romantic period.  I thought this was a fascinating approach, seemingly dismissing the formulaic Classical tradition of the musics structure in favour of adding what can only be described as considerable 'gravitas'.
Excellent stuff.

I'm not sure if I follow your remark regarding the late romantic period, but I agree that Fey's performances are insightful and thrilling.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on March 14, 2011, 09:57:27 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 14, 2011, 09:16:08 AM
I'm not sure if I follow your remark regarding the late romantic period, but I agree that Fey's performances are insightful and thrilling.

Yes Scarpia, I did stretch it a little lot there, so impresseed was I with what I'd heard as opposed to what I 'usually' listen to.   :-[  Still, I'm happy to discover my amazement wasn't unwarranted.   :D  I may collect some Fey now.  Has he done Mozart and what of it?  I'd rather glean opinions of knowledgable friends than go hunting to find what J Barrow of Pineville, Oregon says (and the like).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2011, 10:09:17 AM
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 14, 2011, 09:57:27 AM
Yes Scarpia, I did stretch it a little lot there, so impresseed was I with what I'd heard as opposed to what I 'usually' listen to.   :-[  Still, I'm happy to discover my amazement wasn't unwarranted.   :D  I may collect some Fey now.  Has he done Mozart and what of it?  I'd rather glean opinions of knowledgable friends than go hunting to find what J Barrow of Pineville, Oregon says (and the like).

If he has done any Mozart, it will be news to me. I have the 2 Beethoven disks that I've seen (IIRC, they are like Symphonies 1 & 4 and 2 & 6). I suspect that they would kick ass in Mozart, although it would be nice to see them do various others than 40 & 41... Also, there are a lot of Haydn's, their stated goal is to do them all. I also have a disk with a variety of overtures on it, which I recall to have enjoyed. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2011, 10:16:05 AM
I take it back, he has done some piano concertos, although not with the Heidelberger's. Pianist named Zitterbart who is a stranger to me. Also done the horn concertos. Haven't heard those either. Someone mentioned in another thread last week that his Mendelssohn symphonies are quite good.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: John Copeland on March 14, 2011, 10:24:05 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 14, 2011, 10:16:05 AM
I take it back, he has done some piano concertos, although not with the Heidelberger's. Pianist named Zitterbart who is a stranger to me. Also done the horn concertos. Haven't heard those either. Someone mentioned in another thread last week that his Mendelssohn symphonies are quite good.  :)
8)

Thank you Gurn.  Mendelsshon!  By Fey?  I've got to hear that.  Sounds bloody thrilling.
I think I WILL go look up his stuff now after all... :o ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 17, 2011, 06:07:48 PM
Guys - just left the post below in the Vanhal thread which likely will not be visited often - so thought that I'd just repeat the post here - these are some wonderful Cello Concertos composed by the guy who used to play the same instrument in the quartet  in Vienna which included Mozart & Haydn - assume that he could write well for this instrument; short ARG review attached which prompted my purchase - nice addition to a Vanhal collection if you're interested in this composer -  ;D

QuoteJust acquired the disc shown below of the composer's Cello Concertos performed by Peter Szabo & Sinfonietta Pannonica; Vanhal was a popular composer, teacher, & performer who spent most of his career in Vienna during the time of Mozart & Haydn - he was a part of the oft famous String Quartet in that city which featured Mozart, Haydn, Dittersdorf, and Vanhal, with the latter playing the cello!

As mentioned in a previous post of mine, would not being there be a wonderful experience!  So, these works are of particular interest, i.e. being cello works of Vanhal - short but quite positive review attached from the ARG (Mar-Apr 2011 issue) - quite well done and a nice complement to the other works available from this neglected classical composer -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/VanhalCelloConcs/1219601006_YCSNL-O.jpg)  (http://peter-szabo.com/en/reviews/images/peter_szabo03.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2011, 06:12:53 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 17, 2011, 06:07:48 PM
Guys - just left the post below in the Vanhal thread which likely will not be visited often - so thought that I'd just repeat the post here - these are some wonderful Cello Concertos composed by the guy who used to play the same instrument in the quartet  in Vienna which included Mozart & Haydn - assume that he could write well for this instrument; short ARG review attached which prompted my purchase - nice addition to a Vanhal collection if you're interested in this composer -  ;D

Dave,
Are these period instruments? As you know, that isn't make or break for me, but strongly preferred. Hell, for a chance to get some Vanhal cello works, I guess synthesized cello would be OK for a little while... :D  Thanks for the tip, I've been looking for some of these for a while.  :)

8)



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Now playing:
Academy of St M in the Fields / Marriner - Cherubini Etude #2 for Horn & Strings
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 17, 2011, 07:01:44 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 17, 2011, 06:12:53 PM
Dave,
Are these period instruments? As you know, that isn't make or break for me, but strongly preferred. Hell, for a chance to get some Vanhal cello works, I guess synthesized cello would be OK for a little while... :D  Thanks for the tip, I've been looking for some of these for a while.  :)

Hey Gurn - cannot answer your question at the moment; the liner notes are rather deficient regarding the nature of the instruments used including the cello; but Peter Szabo has a Website HERE (http://peter-szabo.com/en/welcome) - I've just sent an email asking about the type of instruments used in this performance; often I get no response, but OTOH have been pleasantly surprised w/ a quick and accurate return email - so let me wait a day or so and see what happens?

But I must say that in that picture w/ him & his cello, the instrument looks rather 'period' to me; plus the 'chamber orchestra', i.e. Sinfonietta Pannonica is described as being a selection from the instrumentalists of the best Hungarian orchestras.  The recordings were done in May 2010, so quite recent - can't imagine that you would not love these works not only for the Vanhal ambience but also for the rarity of the recordings (these are claimed to be 'World Premiere' offerings found by Szabo in the National Museum of Prague - BOY, what a temptation!) - but let me see if I get a return email from him?  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2011, 07:10:58 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 17, 2011, 07:01:44 PM
Hey Gurn - cannot answer your question at the moment; the liner notes are rather deficient regarding the nature of the instruments used including the cello; but Peter Szabo has a Website HERE (http://peter-szabo.com/en/welcome) - I've just sent an email asking about the type of instruments used in this performance; often I get no response, but OTOH have been pleasantly surprised w/ a quick and accurate return email - so let me wait a day or so and see what happens?

But I must say that in that picture w/ him & his cello, the instrument looks rather 'period' to me; plus the 'chamber orchestra', i.e. Sinfonietta Pannonica is described as being a selection from the instrumentalists of the best Hungarian orchestras.  The recordings were done in May 2010, so quite recent - can't imagine that you would not love these works not only for the Vanhal ambience but also for the rarity of the recordings (these are claimed to be 'World Premiere' offerings found by Szabo in the National Museum of Prague - BOY, what a temptation!) - but let me see if I get a return email from him?  Dave  :D

Sounds great, thanks. If there is another picture of the cello that shows all of it, you can tell if it doesn't have a rod stand, just has an end pin, then it is period, and you can assume the orchestra is too. That picture cuts off just a hair too high!   :D

But you're right, I would get it anyway. Just have to get that itch scratched first. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 18, 2011, 04:36:12 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 17, 2011, 07:10:58 PM
Sounds great, thanks. If there is another picture of the cello that shows all of it, you can tell if it doesn't have a rod stand, just has an end pin, then it is period, and you can assume the orchestra is too. That picture cuts off just a hair too high!   :D

But you're right, I would get it anyway. Just have to get that itch scratched first. ;)

Below is a larger image of the same picture showing a rod stand - of course, not sure if that is the cello he used nor how it was strung and bowed - just nothing in the liner notes to help - his biography can be found HERE (http://peter-szabo.com/en/biography); appears that his training & performances span a number of genres - Dave  :D

(http://peter-szabo.com/images/peter_szabo02.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2011, 04:43:03 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 18, 2011, 04:36:12 AM
Below is a larger image of the same picture showing a rod stand - of course, not sure if that is the cello he used nor how it was strung and bowed - just nothing in the liner notes to help - his biography can be found HERE (http://peter-szabo.com/en/biography); appears that his training & performances span a number of genres - Dave  :D

(http://peter-szabo.com/images/peter_szabo02.jpg)

Yeah, that pretty much settles it. I was just looking at a bio of the gal that's the first fiddle for that orchestra and it was equally ambiguous; ranges to at least Bartok, but OTOH, she plays chamber pieces with Spanyi, which is as PI as you can get these days.  :)  No matter, I have it in my cart anyway.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on March 18, 2011, 04:44:53 AM
Gurn, can you confirm rumors that the accumulated content of your cart has triggered tectonic activity in the lesser Antilles? ; )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2011, 05:05:49 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 18, 2011, 04:44:53 AM
Gurn, can you confirm rumors that the accumulated content of your cart has triggered tectonic activity in the lesser Antilles? ; )

Steamroller II: The Sequel - "Harry Goes West" starring Gurn Blanston   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on March 18, 2011, 06:17:29 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 18, 2011, 04:36:12 AM
Below is a larger image of the same picture showing a rod stand - of course, not sure if that is the cello he used nor how it was strung and bowed - just nothing in the liner notes to help - his biography can be found HERE (http://peter-szabo.com/en/biography); appears that his training & performances span a number of genres - Dave  :D

(http://peter-szabo.com/images/peter_szabo02.jpg)

Well, for a moment there, I was wondering why Minnesota Dave was posing with a cello. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2011, 06:37:53 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 18, 2011, 06:17:29 AM
Well, for a moment there, I was wondering why Minnesota Dave was posing with a cello. ;D

Actually, Dave is a hell of a poser... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 20, 2011, 06:25:43 AM
(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/b3/fc/0014fcb3_medium.jpeg)

I've been listening to Hasse's requiem in Eb Major on my way to work everyday. It's quite the grand and exquisite performance of a majestic score. It's amazing all around. I love Hasse, and he's becoming a favorite of mine!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 20, 2011, 08:11:26 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 20, 2011, 06:25:43 AM
(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/b3/fc/0014fcb3_medium.jpeg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HasseRequiem/1221069021_hFZ6J-O.jpg)

I've been listening to Hasse's requiem in Eb Major on my way to work everyday. It's quite the grand and exquisite performance of a majestic score. It's amazing all around. I love Hasse, and he's becoming a favorite of mine!

Currently listening to my recently arrived CD of Hasse's Requiem in C Major - I own a lot of Requiems but this is one of the most upbeat!  A celebration of life as discussed in Bruno's excellent comments from Amazon (quoted a few pages back by you) - also an excellent review from MusicWeb Reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=192046) - for those into Requiems who do not own this one, then highly recommended!   :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 20, 2011, 08:36:20 AM
Hasse, Johann (1699-1783) - long lived and prolific German born composer spanning that wonderful transitional 18th century period between the late Baroque & early Classical eras.  He spent most of his adult years in either Italy (living out his life in Venice) and in Dresden at the Saxon court under Augustus II, who he wrote the Requiem in C Major upon the latter's death, and a work discussed in previous posts here.

A Wiki biography is available HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Adolph_Hasse); a list of his dozens of operas HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_operas_by_Hasse); and a list of his other vocal, church, and instrumental works HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johann_Adolph_Hasse) - he indeed was a versatile and prolific composer, and likely thought as one of the best in Europe during his productive years; from the liner notes of the Requiem that I just received, the famous music historian of the times, Charles Burney (1726-1814) described Hasse as 'the most skillful and elegant of all the composers of his time' - high praise that certainly is open to debate!

However, Hasse is not only neglected these days, but also has been little recorded as far as I can see in looking on Amazon USA - I have just 2 other discs of his works, both instrumental (the one w/ Epoca Barocca is a great starter one for this genre of his output) and shown below, along w/ a picture of him.

So, just curious if others can provide some additional comments and recommendations regarding other available recordings?  Thanks all -  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aMHFo9%2BJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61B4-Dbk4yL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Johann_Adolf_Hasse.jpg/250px-Johann_Adolf_Hasse.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2011, 09:03:43 AM
Well, quite simply, I am Hasse-free at the moment, so my contributions to this topic can only be minimal. His name is frequently tied to Graun's as a first-rate opera composer, and he was said to lack the spark of brilliance required to make an instrumental composer stand out from the crowd (that from a Haydn bio, so take it in that light). I guess I'll have to get myself up to speed, now he's been brought up... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Sonnerie / Monica Huggett (Violin)  Nigel North (Archlute & Theorbo) - Corelli Op 5 #10 Sonata in F for Violin 2nd mvmt - Allemanda: Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 20, 2011, 11:54:59 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 20, 2011, 08:11:26 AM
Currently listening to my recently arrived CD of Hasse's Requiem in C Major - I own a lot of Requiems but this is one of the most upbeat!  A celebration of life as discussed in Bruno's excellent comments from Amazon (quoted a few pages back by you) - also an excellent review from MusicWeb Reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=192046) - for those into Requiems who do not own this one, then highly recommended!   :D

Thank you for the link to that great review from musicweb, of which I haven't seen yet.

I'm glad you liked the disc, and yes I agree, this is a rather joyous-sounding Requiem!

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 20, 2011, 09:03:43 AM
Well, quite simply, I am Hasse-free at the moment, so my contributions to this topic can only be minimal. His name is frequently tied to Graun's as a first-rate opera composer, and he was said to lack the spark of brilliance required to make an instrumental composer stand out from the crowd (that from a Haydn bio, so take it in that light). I guess I'll have to get myself up to speed, now he's been brought up... :)


As for the instrumental music of Hasse, I enthusiastically recommend this disk of concerti and chamber music for flute:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kzkCFIFML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I read an interesting article regarding Hasse's Flute Concerti, by Pippa Drummond, and here is an excerpt:

One of the most noticeable features of Hasse's concertos is the sharp distinction between solo and tutti
sections. This is achieved not primarily by the use of contrasting solo material, but by a change of instrumentation. In solo passages the lower parts are dropped, leaving the accompaniment
to upper strings alone. The full orchestral tutti therefore has little to do except present the ritornello statements and make occasional interjections into solo episodes.

Handel's biographer John Mainwaring, after hearing Hasse's music in London, wrote:

He is remarkable for his fine elevated air, with hardly so much as the
shew of harmony to support it. And this may serve not only for a
character of HASSE in particular, but of the Italians in general, at the
time we are speaking of.


Stylistically, this concentration on melody is the most striking feature of Hasse's concerto writing. His aim was to present the one melodic line as clearly as possible, without the encumbrance of obtrusive accompaniment figures or distracting countermelodies. In this respect Hasse went further than many of his Italian contemporaries, for even Porpora and Leo admitted a certain amount of contrapuntal writing into their
concertos.

Hasse, on the other hand, was exceptionally rigorous in his avoidance of contrapuntal textures. He seldom
employed imitation, and fugal writing is rare indeed. There are only two fugal movements in the published concertos and each is disappointing. The first movement of Op. 6 No. 4 shows little inventive skill in either subject or countersubject, the part writing is clumsy, and the occasional crossing of violin parts serves little useful purpose.

Most of Hasse's concerto movements are written in a simple melody/accompaniment style. Textures are thin and clear, especially in solo episodes, where the accompaniment is often entrusted to first and second violins alone. The accompaniment itself is of the simplest kind. There is no attempt to utilize important motifs from the ritorello (as in the German tradition), or to enliven the texture with imitation. The violins merely provide unobtrusive support for the soloist, and their parts consist primarily of repeated quaver
figures. The texture of ritornello sections is richer, but equally transparent. For although the ritornellos may be scored for as many as six parts, extensive doubling reduces these to three.

Indeed, Hasse seldom wrote in more than three real parts. Nor may this feature be explained away in terms of the concertos' original instrumentation. It is a general characteristic of Hasse's style, and one which drew admiration from a rather unlikely quarter: according to Burney, C. P. E. Bach "once wrote word to Hasse, that he was the greatest cheat in the world; for in a score of twenty nominapl arts, he had seldom
more than three real ones in action; but with these he produced such divine effects, as must never be expected from a crowded score."

It is significant that whenever Hasse desired a light-textured accompaniment, as in the slow movement of Op. 6 No. 1, he thought in terms of pure string tone rather than the more brittle sound of string bass and keyboard continuo. This may perhaps be seen as part of the general decline in the importance of the continuo that was symptomatic of the disintegration of late Baroque style, and it is tempting to look for other
indications that Hasse had abandoned the ideals of the Baroque. One of the most obvious differences between his concertos and those of the older generation is that the soloist is not always expected to participate in the tutti sections. The flautist rests for long stretches in the first and third movements
of Op. 3 No. I0, and again in certain quick movements from the Op. 6 set. Historically, the omission of the soloist from tutti sections is of considerable significance, and Hasse's concertos provide an early, though by no means isolated, example of a practice that was to become widespread later in the century.

...In assessing the historical position of Hasse's concertos a comparison with Vivaldi's work is inescapable. Although structurally the concertos are closely allied to Vivaldi's ritornello form, stylistically they are more advanced. Some aspects of the new style, it is true, may also be found in Vivaldi's concertos; indeed, thin-textured accompaniments, repeated quaver figures, rapid changes from major to minor and syncopated themes are almost as prevalent in Vivaldi's concertos as in those of Hasse. But the latter went much further in the direction of pre-Classical music: his published concertos exhibit already the cliches of the transitional era.

Their graceful melodies, short-winded phrases, triplet decorations, slow harmonic rhythms and constant cadencing are all indications that the ideals of Baroque music were slipping away. It is significant that towards the end of his life Vivaldi was considered old fashioned by comparison with Hasse.
Charles de Brosses, writing from Venice in 1739, remarked:

To my great surprise I found that [Vivaldi] is not so highly esteemed as
he merits in this country, where everything is a la mode, where his works
have been heard for too long now, and where the previous year's music
is no longer a draw. Today the famous Saxon is the man of the moment.


Hasse's concertos bear the hallmarks of that new melodic style which emerged in Italy around the year 1720 and for which existing terminology has never been entirely adequate. Neither 'rococo' nor 'galant' really serves to distinguish this particular idiom from that of different transitional styles which were developing simultaneously in other parts of Europe. The new style was essentially Italian in its cultivation of pure
melody and in its subordination of more intellectual elements, and in particular it had Neapolitan associations, especially with opera. Hasse's dramatic music falls within this Neapolitan tradition. He spent several formative years in the city (from c. 1724 to 1730), and the style of his operas is similar to that of
other Neapolitan-based composers, among them Vinci, Sarri, Leo, Feo, Porpora and Pergolesi. The concertos are of the same lineage. The most pronounced characteristics of Hasse's concertos-the accent on melody, the three-part writing, light accompaniment of solo sections, aria-like slow movements and avoidance of compound time signatures-all these features have their counterparts in Neapolitan opera seria of the 1720s
and 30s.


;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 20, 2011, 12:46:21 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 20, 2011, 08:36:20 AM
However, Hasse is not only neglected these days, but also has been little recorded as far as I can see in looking on Amazon USA - I have just 2 other discs of his works, both instrumental (the one w/ Epoca Barocca is a great starter one for this genre of his output) and shown below, along w/ a picture of him.

So, just curious if others can provide some additional comments and recommendations regarding other available recordings?  Thanks all -  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aMHFo9%2BJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61B4-Dbk4yL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) 



Now this recording, with excerpts from every act of Hasse's great opera, Cleofide, is a fantastic taste of his opera style, and so far, the only sample I've heard of his operatic music. I'm going to need to hear more soon:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51z9Otde4ZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Here is a review on AMAZON:

HIGHLIGHTS FROM A FOUR DISC OPERA PRODUCED IN 1986.
Johann Hasse (1699-1783) studied with Porpora in Naples. He was the first composer to set many of Metastasio's texts, and his music reflects the neo-classical ideal of Metastasio's style. A powerful dramatist, he was renowned for his careful use of the accompanied recitative (this is evident in 'Cleofide'. Hasses's long career covered the period around the middle of the eighteenth century, and his later works reveal attempts at overall unity by means of tonal planning and a reaction against the 'da capo' aria like those of Gluck. In 1734, he became composer for the court of Dresden, becoming one of the most powerful exponents of the Italian operatic style in Germany. 'Cleofide' was first performed in Dresden in September of 1731.

Essentially, this work is based on the subject of jealousy, and has in general to do with conquest and the desire to be sole possessor of women and of kingdoms. This story idea is very reminiscent to me of the Gluck opera 'Iphigenie en Tauride'. In that opera the character 'Thoas' could be compared to Alexander in 'Cleofide', and in Purcell's 'Dido and Aeneas' we would have to equate Aeneas to that role, albeit unwittingly on his part.

There are six main characters in this opera, all of whom perform their characterizations superbly: Emma Kirkby,soprano,Cleofide-Agnes Mellon, soprano,Erissena-Randall Wong, male sopranist,Gandarte-Derek Ragin,male alto,Poro-Dominque Visse,male alto,Alessandro-David Cordier,Timagene,male alto. One may think that with all these basically teble voices, that confusion would exist in the listening process, but the quality of each of them is so unique and so abviously different from one another it does not really present a problem. Those of you who have heard each or all or some of them will easily detect to whom you are listening. For example Visse's male alto voice is a bit rough and reedy whereas Cordier is somooth, rich and full. On the other hand, Ragin's voice is thin, but clear and clean sounding and he tends to sound more flexible. Wong, of course , is a male soprano and does not sound like Kirkby or Mellon who do not sound like each other. Enough said!

It would have to be very difficult to take from four discs of excellent arias and pick the 'best', but I think this recording presents a fair picture of the singers and what they did in 'Cleofide' (still available in the marketplace if you are interested). Anyway since not much information is included as to who sang what, at much investment of my time, here they are:
ACT ONE: Aria 'Che sorte crudele'(How cruel is the lot.)sung by Cleofide (Kirkby). Aria 'Ve drai con tuo periglio' (You'll see it at your peril.) sung by Poro (Ragin). Duetto 'Se mai piu saro geloso'(Should I ever be jealous again,)Cleo & Poro. ACT 2 Aria 'Appena amore sen nace'(As spun as Cupid is born)sung by Gandarte (Wong). Aria 'E ver che a l'amo intorno' (Circling the fishing hook) sung by Timagene (Cordier). Recitative 'Poro mio dolce amor'(Poro, my sweet love) sung by Cleo & Erissena(Mellon). Aria 'Se Costa tante pene amor a la belta'(If Cupid causes such pain)sung by Erissena. Aria 'Son qual misera colomba' (I am like the poor dove) sung by Cleo. ACT THREE: Aria 'Cervo al Bosco'(the stag in the wood) sung by Alessandro(Visse). Aria 'Dov'e? si affretti'(Where is he?) sung by Poro. Recitativo 'Secondate, O gran Numi'(Favor the magnaminous Gods) sung by Cleo. Aria 'Perder l'amato bene' (Loving one's beloved) sung by Cleo. CORO 'al nostro consolo'(Now that we are consoled.

The COMPLETE opera is a listening experience of excitement and beauty, and although I must confess that Hasse's music has not been one of my listening favorites, this work is an exception. The advantage of the highlights is, of course, that you need not listen to all of the recitatives, but truthfully I haven't minded even doing that at all. This approach is a great way to give you some idea of the entire opera.




Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 20, 2011, 01:16:46 PM
Personally, Hasse's sacred music remains among the most powerful statements of beauty, classical logic, and mystical refinement from the 18th Century - at least out of what I've heard (so far) from this century  ;D

Sonicman, if you and anyone else loves Hasse's requiems, I also want to mention these disks:

This disk is a sacred journey indeed, composed in 1783 and his last mass, where Hasse's sacred music plays majestic and profound.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514NSc-PUML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


And:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N41m%2BezQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm listening to Hasse's Mass in D Minor right now, and again I'm taken by the classical beauty of the music, the logic of the phrases and turns of musical phrase in the melodies. The sense of sacred mystery is all over this D Minor Mass. Also, this recording has the deeply moving Requiem in E flat major from Johann David Heinichen (1683-1729).


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2011, 02:03:48 PM
Quote from: Leo K on March 20, 2011, 11:54:59 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kzkCFIFML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I read an interesting article regarding Hasse's Flute Concerti, by Pippa Drummond, and here is an excerpt:

One of the most noticeable features of Hasse's concertos is the sharp distinction between solo and tutti
sections. This is achieved not primarily by the use of contrasting solo material, but by a change of instrumentation. In solo passages the lower parts are dropped, leaving the accompaniment to upper strings alone. The full orchestral tutti therefore has little to do except present the ritornello statements and make occasional interjections into solo episodes.

Handel's biographer John Mainwaring, after hearing Hasse's music in London, wrote:

He is remarkable for his fine elevated air, with hardly so much as the shew of harmony to support it. And this may serve not only for a character of HASSE in particular, but of the Italians in general, at the time we are speaking of.

Stylistically, this concentration on melody is the most striking feature of Hasse's concerto writing. His aim was to present the one melodic line as clearly as possible, without the encumbrance of obtrusive accompaniment figures or distracting countermelodies. In this respect Hasse went further than many of his Italian contemporaries, for even Porpora and Leo admitted a certain amount of contrapuntal writing into their concertos.

Hasse, on the other hand, was exceptionally rigorous in his avoidance of contrapuntal textures. He seldom employed imitation, and fugal writing is rare indeed. There are only two fugal movements in the published concertos and each is disappointing. The first movement of Op. 6 No. 4 shows little inventive skill in either subject or countersubject, the part writing is clumsy, and the occasional crossing of violin parts serves little useful purpose.

Most of Hasse's concerto movements are written in a simple melody/accompaniment style. Textures are thin and clear, especially in solo episodes, where the accompaniment is often entrusted to first and second violins alone. The accompaniment itself is of the simplest kind. There is no attempt to utilize important motifs from the ritorello (as in the German tradition), or to enliven the texture with imitation. The violins merely provide unobtrusive support for the soloist, and their parts consist primarily of repeated quaver
figures. The texture of ritornello sections is richer, but equally transparent. For although the ritornellos may be scored for as many as six parts, extensive doubling reduces these to three.

Indeed, Hasse seldom wrote in more than three real parts. Nor may this feature be explained away in terms of the concertos' original instrumentation. It is a general characteristic of Hasse's style, and one which drew admiration from a rather unlikely quarter: according to Burney, C. P. E. Bach "once wrote word to Hasse, that he was the greatest cheat in the world; for in a score of twenty nominapl arts, he had seldom more than three real ones in action; but with these he produced such divine effects, as must never be expected from a crowded score."

It is significant that whenever Hasse desired a light-textured accompaniment, as in the slow movement of Op. 6 No. 1, he thought in terms of pure string tone rather than the more brittle sound of string bass and keyboard continuo. This may perhaps be seen as part of the general decline in the importance of the continuo that was symptomatic of the disintegration of late Baroque style, and it is tempting to look for other indications that Hasse had abandoned the ideals of the Baroque. One of the most obvious differences between his concertos and those of the older generation is that the soloist is not always expected to participate in the tutti sections. The flautist rests for long stretches in the first and third movements of Op. 3 No. I0, and again in certain quick movements from the Op. 6 set. Historically, the omission of the soloist from tutti sections is of considerable significance, and Hasse's concertos provide an early, though by no means isolated, example of a practice that was to become widespread later in the century.

...In assessing the historical position of Hasse's concertos a comparison with Vivaldi's work is inescapable. Although structurally the concertos are closely allied to Vivaldi's ritornello form, stylistically they are more advanced. Some aspects of the new style, it is true, may also be found in Vivaldi's concertos; indeed, thin-textured accompaniments, repeated quaver figures, rapid changes from major to minor and syncopated themes are almost as prevalent in Vivaldi's concertos as in those of Hasse. But the latter went much further in the direction of pre-Classical music: his published concertos exhibit already the cliches of the transitional era.

Their graceful melodies, short-winded phrases, triplet decorations, slow harmonic rhythms and constant cadencing are all indications that the ideals of Baroque music were slipping away. It is significant that towards the end of his life Vivaldi was considered old fashioned by comparison with Hasse.
Charles de Brosses, writing from Venice in 1739, remarked:

To my great surprise I found that [Vivaldi] is not so highly esteemed as he merits in this country, where everything is a la mode, where his works have been heard for too long now, and where the previous year's music is no longer a draw. Today the famous Saxon is the man of the moment.

Hasse's concertos bear the hallmarks of that new melodic style which emerged in Italy around the year 1720 and for which existing terminology has never been entirely adequate. Neither 'rococo' nor 'galant' really serves to distinguish this particular idiom from that of different transitional styles which were developing simultaneously in other parts of Europe. The new style was essentially Italian in its cultivation of pure melody and in its subordination of more intellectual elements, and in particular it had Neapolitan associations, especially with opera. Hasse's dramatic music falls within this Neapolitan tradition. He spent several formative years in the city (from c. 1724 to 1730), and the style of his operas is similar to that of other Neapolitan-based composers, among them Vinci, Sarri, Leo, Feo, Porpora and Pergolesi. The concertos are of the same lineage. The most pronounced characteristics of Hasse's concertos-the accent on melody, the three-part writing, light accompaniment of solo sections, aria-like slow movements and avoidance of compound time signatures-all these features have their counterparts in Neapolitan opera seria of the 1720s and 30s.


Thanks for that, Leo. Very interesting. I'll have to do some searching about. I thought I had that disk of trio sonatas on Chaconne that Dave rec'd, but since I can't find it, either I'm wrong else I've lost it... :-\   So it goes.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Philharmonia Orchestra / Mackerras - Dvorak Op 088 Symphony #8 in G 3rd mvmt - Allegretto grazioso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 20, 2011, 02:19:18 PM
Hi Leo - thanks for all of the excellent series of posts!  Just coming back online for the night and see that you've changed your avatar!

There is so much to explore in Hasse's Oeuvre - of the instrumental works, the flute options I like, and of course so much vocal music, whether secular or sacred - looking forward to discovering more - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on March 21, 2011, 04:08:22 AM
This is an attractive Hasse recording on Hungaroton:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/011/164/0001116478_350.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 22, 2011, 10:40:38 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on March 21, 2011, 04:08:22 AM
This is an attractive Hasse recording on Hungaroton:

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/011/164/0001116478_350.jpg)

Thank you for the heads up on this recording  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 22, 2011, 11:31:23 AM
I have been listening to this composer, Wilhelm Wilms, for the first time by listening to his 6th Symphony, as recorded by Concerto Köln.

[asin]B00016OYNW[/asin]

Wow. Upon listening to this 6th Symphony I'm very moved by the nuances of the melody and orchestration.


Quoth the wiki:

(http://www.dohr.de/autor/Graphiken/wilms_johann_wilhelm.jpg)

Johann Wilhelm Wilms (1772-1847)

Wilms was born in Witzhelden near Solingen. After lessons from his
father and oldest brother in piano and composition, Wilms studied flute
on his own. He moved to Amsterdam in 1791 where he played flute in
two orchestras and was soloist in Mozart and Beethoven piano
concertos, giving them their Dutch premieres.

He also taught piano at the Koninklijk Nederlandsch Instituut voor
Wetenschappen, interviewed applicants for church organist positions,
judged composition competitions and wrote for the Allgemeine
musikalische Zeitung, a publication he once used as a soapbox to
complain about the lack of performance of music by contemporary
Dutch composers like himself.

As the events of the French Revolution affected the Netherlands,
Wilms wrote several patriotic hymns. However, following the fall of
Napoleon, and the return of the House of Orange to power, Wilms in
1816 won the open competition for the new Dutch anthem with Wien Neêrlandsch bloed
(with lyrics by Hendrik Tollens), leading to lots of commission from churches and other organizations.
For 23 years Wilms was the organist at a Baptist church in Amsterdam, where he died.

Symphonies

Wilms wrote seven symphonies, the one in F major was lost and the others sank into obscurity after his death. The chronology of the five early symphonies is not clear even to experts.

According to Ernst Klusen, the Finale of the E-flat major Symphony is modeled on that of Mozart's K. 543. His
Symphony No. 6 in D minor, which won first prize at the Société des Beaux-Arts Ghent, and Symphony No. 7 in C minor were recorded in 2003 by Concerto Köln for Deutsche Grammophon.

Due to a misunderstanding about publication dates, conductor Werner Ehrhardt at first thought that Wilms had lived in a later period and therefore had written music in an antiquated style. But after being straightened out, given the enthusiasm his ensemble felt for this music, Ehrhardt decided to record these two symphonies anyway. Scholars are more certain these are later works because of their use of cyclic form.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here is a review of this disk from Classics Today (by David Hurwitz)

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/8075_coverpic.jpg)

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p9s9.gif)

This interesting disc introduces the two last symphonies of Johann Wilhelm Wilms (1772-1847), a noted Dutch composer who achieved international fame in his day. The two works here date from about 1820 and 1830 respectively. Symphony No. 6 requires the standard orchestra of double winds, horns, and trumpet, with strings and timpani, while No. 7 adds another two horns and three trombones. Each work lasts half an hour and offers the traditional stormy minor-to-triumphant-major tonal progress, though No. 7 is far more trenchant and powerful in this respect. Mozart and Haydn hang heavily over this music, more so than Beethoven, and if you enjoyed CPO's series of Ries symphonies, or perhaps Nils Gade, then you doubtless will like these as much, if not more.

Wilms was adept at musical gestures: both works open impressively, have interesting scherzos, and offer outer movements where rhetorically grand statements alternate with somewhat bland contrasting material. Thus, the concluding Rondo of the Sixth Symphony has lots of charm but exhibits little in the way of drama (as we have come to expect from Beethoven, who, judging from this and other contemporary competition, really did blow everyone else away). The slow movements also have charm, if not much depth, but the music's vigor and contrast certainly will hold your attention, and I found getting to know this music a very enjoyable encounter.

The performances are very good, although I still do not believe that the vibratoless string sound cultivated here was considered normal or attractive at any period in musical history, and the brass tend to blast at climaxes (some will find this exciting; I would prefer a larger string section to balance out the volume). Also, Werner Ehrhardt's heavy tempo in Symphony No. 7's concluding Allegro does not strike me as terribly "con fuoco" as Wilms directs, but in all other respects these enthusiastic readings make a good case for a composer who certainly had some attractive ideas. I would be very interested in hearing some of his (reportedly numerous) concertos, and meanwhile can recommend this without hesitation as a genuine novelty.


--David Hurwitz
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 25, 2011, 09:28:10 AM
I just heard Carl Loewe for this first time, his D minor Symphony, from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nnhVnwj8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It is an exciting work, with a very interesting theme and variations for the Finale. All through the symphony Loewe displays a quality of fun and rhymic interest..I simply love it.

I've seen his songs mentioned on this forum, but not this interesting symphony. Has anyone else heard this work? The disk above is expensive on Amazon.

Quoth the wiki:

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Lib/Loewe-Carl-07.jpg)


Johann Carl Gottfried Loewe (30 November 1796, Löbejün – 20 April 1869), usually called Carl Loewe (sometimes seen as Karl Loewe), was a German composer, baritone singer and conductor. In his lifetime, his songs were well enough known for some to call him the "Schubert of North Germany", and Hugo Wolf came to admire his work. He is less known today, but sometimes his ballads and songs, which amount to over 400, are occasionally performed.

Life and career
Loewe was born in Löbejün and received his first music lessons from his father. He was a choir-boy, first at Köthen, and later at Halle, where he went to grammar school. The beauty of Loewe's voice brought him under the notice of Madame de Staël, who procured him a pension from Jérôme Bonaparte, then king of Westphalia, which enabled him to further his education in music, and to study theology at Halle University. This ended in 1813, on the flight of the king.

In 1820, he moved to Stettin in Prussia (now Szczecin in Poland), where he worked as organist and music director of the school. It was while there that he did most of his work as a composer, publishing a version of Goethe's Erlkönig in 1824 (written 1817-18) which some say rivals Schubert's far more famous version. He went on to set many other poets' works, including Friedrich Rückert, and translations of William Shakespeare and Lord Byron.

In 1821 he married Julie von Jacob, who died in 1823. His second wife, Auguste Lange, was an accomplished singer, and they appeared together in his oratorio performances with great success.

On 20 February 1827, he conducted the first performance of the 18-year old Felix Mendelssohn's Overture "A Midsummer Night's Dream", Op. 21. He and Mendelssohn were also soloists in Mendelssohn's Concerto in A-flat major for 2 pianos and orchestra.

Later in life, Loewe became very popular both as a composer and as a singer. As a youth, he had a high soprano voice (he could sing the music of the "Queen of the Night" in Die Zauberflöte as a boy), and his voice developed into a fine tenor. He made several tours as a singer in the 1840s and 1850s, visiting England, France, Sweden and Norway amongst other countries. He eventually moved back to Germany, and, after quitting his posts in Stettin after 46 years, moved to Kiel, where he died from a stroke on 20 April 1869.

Loewe wrote five operas, of which only one, Die drei Wünsche, was performed at Berlin in 1834, without much success; seventeen oratorios, many of them for male voices unaccompanied, or with short instrumental interludes only; choral ballads, cantatas, three string quartets (his opus 24[3]), and a pianoforte trio;[4] a work for clarinet and piano, published posthumously; and some piano solos. But the branch of his art by which he is remembered, and in which he must be admitted to have attained perfection, is the solo ballad with pianoforte accompaniment. His treatment of long narrative poems, in a clever mixture of the dramatic and lyrical styles, was undoubtedly modelled on the ballads of Johann Rudolf Zumsteeg, and has been copied by many composers since his day. His settings of the Erlkönig (a very early example), Archibald Douglas, Heinrich der Vogler, Edward and Die Verfallene Mühle, are particularly fine.

There are at least two symphonies by Loewe - one, in D minor, has been recorded on the Koch Schwann label together with the first of at least two CD recordings of Loewe's second piano concerto (in A major), and another, in E minor, was given its first performance in 170 years in November 2004.[5] (The cpo series of recordings of Loewe's complete ballads includes as well a recording of two piano sonatas and a "tone poem in sonata form", with one of the sonatas - the E major of 1829 - having a vocal part for soprano and baritone.

In 1875, at Bayreuth, Richard Wagner remarked of Loewe, 'Ha, das ist ein ernster, mit Bedeutung die schöne deutsche Sprache behandelnder, nicht hoch genug zu ehrender deutscher Meister, echt und wahr!' (Ha, that is a serious German Master, authentic and true, one who uses the beautiful German language with meaning, one who cannot be sufficiently revered!).

Musical style
Loewe's earliest songs, such as the Acht Jugenlieder and the Anakreontische Lieder, follow the musical pattern of the late 18th century tradition, using a single melodic line, basic accompaniment, and mostly strophic and varied strophic forms. Under Zumsteeg's influence, Loewe began incorporating and cultivating the ballad form into his vocal songs. When compared to other Lieder composers, Loewe's rhapsodic composition style is said to have "a striking absence of organic musical development" His settings of poetry separated poetic ideas and treated them episodically rather than using unifying motifs (like fellow Lieder composer, Franz Schubert). One of Loewe's strengths as a composer was his "daring and imaginative" accompaniments which were often complex and atmospherically appropriate to the text of the poem.


;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 22, 2011, 11:31:23 AM
I have been listening to this composer, Wilhelm Wilms, for the first time by listening to his 6th Symphony, as recorded by Concerto Köln.

[asin]B00016OYNW[/asin]

Wow. Upon listening to this 6th Symphony I'm very moved by the nuances of the melody and orchestration.

etc


I have that disk, it is super! The only other Wilms I have is this one, which has his along with contemporaries like Fodor:

[asin]B00005227U[/asin]. Nice disk to have, BTW.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on March 25, 2011, 10:19:39 AM
The Corner is hopping!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 25, 2011, 09:28:10 AM
I just heard Carl Loewe for this first time, his D minor Symphony, from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nnhVnwj8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511Hc2nRjGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It is an exciting work, with a very interesting theme and variations for the Finale. All through the symphony Loewe displays a quality of fun and rhymic interest..I simply love it.


Hello Leo - concerning Johann Wilms, I own just the disc inserted above - will need to give it a spin to refresh my aural memory; I've really not explored his other output or recordings.  Own nothing by Carl Loewe - so yet another 'unknown' to me; there are so many! Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Henk on March 25, 2011, 10:36:14 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
I have that disk, it is super!


Only rather a pity that it's performed by german artists, with a german conductor I think. So I can't listen to it anymore. I have many of the recordings by Concerto Koln. Interesting works, badly performed.

Henk
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 25, 2011, 10:40:40 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 25, 2011, 10:19:39 AM
The Corner is hopping!

Yay! As this is my favorite place on the net  :-*
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2011, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: Henk on March 25, 2011, 10:36:14 AM
Only rather a pity that it's performed by german artists, with a german conductor I think. So I can't listen to it anymore. I have many of the recordings by Concerto Koln. Interesting works, badly performed.

Henk

Yeah, but I take everything you say with a grain of salt. My personal opinion is that works recorded by CK are ordinarily excellently performed. Being a Nationalist is all well and good, but when it blinds your ears to reality, then your credibility is sadly damaged. Pity that no Dutch PI orchestra thought the works even worth performing... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 25, 2011, 11:29:07 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
The only other Wilms I have is this one, which has his along with contemporaries like Fodor:

[asin]B00005227U[/asin]. Nice disk to have, BTW.

8)

You had me at, fortepiano...  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 25, 2011, 11:33:08 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 25, 2011, 10:28:09 AM
Hello Leo - concerning Johann Wilms, I own just the disc inserted above - will need to give it a spin to refresh my aural memory; I've really not explored his other output or recordings.  Own nothing by Carl Loewe - so yet another 'unknown' to me; there are so many! Dave  :D

I'm very interested in looking into Carl Loewe's songs, around 400 or so, now that I've discovered his lovely symphony. Apparently, he is more known for his songs. I saw a post on this forum, regarding the series by the CPO (my favorite label) series of Loewe's songs. Looks like great stuff for a rainy day  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Henk on March 25, 2011, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2011, 10:59:15 AM
Yeah, but I take everything you say with a grain of salt. My personal opinion is that works recorded by CK are ordinarily excellently performed. Being a Nationalist is all well and good, but when it blinds your ears to reality, then your credibility is sadly damaged. Pity that no Dutch PI orchestra thought the works even worth performing... :-\

8)

Germans are people without desire, Gurn, kind of reluctant. That´s why I ban all things created by Germans out my life. Let them produce, not create.

I also would like to see Wilms´ works being performed by Dutch orchestras. I don´t know why they don´t. But it´s good that Sweelinck´s works are performed.

I would like to see more works by the composers which the Concerto Koln were playing some works of, are recorded by other orchestras. I think the Rosetti symphonies are recorded already, but what about Wilms, Rigel and Myslivecek?

Henk
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 25, 2011, 11:46:17 AM
Quote from: Henk on March 25, 2011, 10:36:14 AM
Only rather a pity that it's performed by german artists, with a german conductor I think. So I can't listen to it anymore. I have many of the recordings by Concerto Koln. Interesting works, badly performed.

Henk - boy, I guess that you're in a corner by yourself?  ;) :)   I enjoy Concerto Koln - heard them live back in 1996 on a visit to Italy (at La Scala in Milan - can't remember the program?) - loved them at that time and also have many of their recordings.

I'm listening to the Johann Wilms disc as I type - music well composed (not Beethoven) and performed w/ brilliance & gusto - love the winds; others think so too - attached are two reviews from Fanfare back in 2005, both lauding these performances.

Like you I own a number of their other recordings, e.g. the two pictured below are just excellent - for me at least, a THUMBS UP on this group!

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ConcertoKoln/848413757_9F5gB-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DuranteCKoln/863184210_4kq9R-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Henk on March 25, 2011, 11:55:00 AM
Quote from: Leon on March 25, 2011, 11:45:22 AM
If you ban German's from creating, then we are without Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mahler, Schoenberg ... .  Or do you make an exception for Austrians?

I talk about nowadays Germans.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Henk on March 26, 2011, 06:23:28 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 25, 2011, 11:46:17 AM

Like you I own a number of their other recordings, e.g. the two pictured below are just excellent - for me at least, a THUMBS UP on this group!

I suggest the group L'Orfeo Barockorchter, here a page with recordings and samples :

http://www.lorfeo.com/en/cd-einspielungen-2/
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 26, 2011, 08:18:12 AM
Quote from: Henk on March 26, 2011, 06:23:28 AM
I suggest the group L'Orfeo Barockorchter, here a page with recordings and samples :

Actually, I own about a half dozen of their discs, mainly on the CPO label (a favorite of mine), so can vouch for their skills & recordings - excellent group recommendation!   :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 27, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
I have been enthralled to get to know the sonatas of Jan Dussek. Here is a disk I'm currently really enjoying.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FQM4NFEGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I also love the sound of the fortepiano in this recording.

These sonatas are rather revelatory to me, in all the color, melodic material and rhythmic variety I'm hearing here. I like the journey Dussek sets me off on as his music progresses, through interesting contrasts and melodic progression. I'm just getting started on hearing sonatas outside the usual Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert repertoire.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2011, 04:11:42 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 27, 2011, 12:57:51 PM
I have been enthralled to get to know the sonatas of Jan Dussek. Here is a disk I'm currently really enjoying.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FQM4NFEGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I also love the sound of the fortepiano in this recording.

These sonatas are rather revelatory to me, in all the color, melodic material and rhythmic variety I'm hearing here. I like the journey Dussek sets me off on as his music progresses, through interesting contrasts and melodic progression. I'm just getting started on hearing sonatas outside the usual Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert repertoire.

Leo, that's great! This is one of my favorite disks and got me going down that Dussek Road too. I think we will discover here that eventually he was pointing the way towards Romanticism, but the essentials of music structure are beyond me for now. In any case, I think he is a very entertaining sort of guy. IIRC, that disk has the Op 35 sonatas on it, of which Op 35 #3 in c minor is among my favorite works by him

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 28, 2011, 05:18:22 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 25, 2011, 11:46:17 AM
I'm listening to the Johann Wilms disc as I type - music well composed (not Beethoven) and performed w/ brilliance & gusto - love the winds; others think so too - attached are two reviews from Fanfare back in 2005, both lauding these performances.
My library has this and I have to say it was one of the few I did not like from the Concerto Koln (though I have only heard a few). For me, it was the sound. The precision was lacking in the brass and some of the strings. The result is a sound world limited within a certain frequency (if that makes sense).  When the highlighted instrumental parts came around, I enjoyed the results more as the sound opened up (or wasn't reinforcing itself with each instrument on the other). The exception was the horn solo, which I thought was just awful. I felt like the player had a veil or something that was preventing the sound from opening up. Anyway, it distracted me (in a bad way) every time. A good example of this is the first track of the disc. Of course, it could just be the music didn't connect (I did take it out several times), but I felt like it should have. I did like the slower/quieter movements more.

I hate to be negative, and I am not trying to slam the Koncerto Koln (who I like in my Vanhal disc for example), but felt this deserved a mention.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2011, 05:26:58 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 28, 2011, 05:18:22 AM
My library has this and I have to say it was one of the few I did not like from the Concerto Koln (though I have only heard a few). For me, it was the sound. The precision was lacking in the brass and some of the strings. The result is a sound world limited within a certain frequency (if that makes sense).  When the highlighted instrumental parts came around, I enjoyed the results more as the sound opened up (or wasn't reinforcing itself with each instrument on the other). The exception was the horn solo, which I thought was just awful. I felt like the player had a veil or something that was preventing the sound from opening up. Anyway, it distracted me (in a bad way) every time. A good example of this is the first track of the disc. Of course, it could just be the music didn't connect (I did take it out several times), but I felt like it should have. I did like the slower/quieter movements more.

I hate to be negative, and I am not trying to slam the Koncerto Koln (who I like in my Vanhal disc for example), but felt this deserved a mention.

Certainly it does deserve mention. It makes a lot more sense to me than 'modern Germans are so lazy', so to speak. Thanks for the input. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 28, 2011, 04:45:43 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2011, 04:11:42 AM
Leo, that's great! This is one of my favorite disks and got me going down that Dussek Road too. I think we will discover here that eventually he was pointing the way towards Romanticism, but the essentials of music structure are beyond me for now. In any case, I think he is a very entertaining sort of guy. IIRC, that disk has the Op 35 sonatas on it, of which Op 35 #3 in c minor is among my favorite works by him

8)

That c minor sonata is a great journey indeed.

I'm also enjoying this disk, that I found uploaded to a blog:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/May05/Dusik_su36592.jpg)

It's not a fortepiano, but I'm happy to discover these sonatas.  8)



I'm also interested in trying out this series of Dussek piano sonatas played by Frederick Marvin. Again, on a modern piano, but I'm curious to hearing these played more romantically too:

(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/300x300/32897629.jpg)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 28, 2011, 04:57:26 PM
By the way, is anyone here a big fan of Norbert Burgmuller (1810-1836)? I may have time to hear his OP.8 Piano Sonata in F Minor, tonight, for the first time, from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51py7ciiJaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 28, 2011, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: Leo K on March 28, 2011, 04:57:26 PM
By the way, is anyone here a big fan of Norbert Burgmuller (1810-1836)? I may have time to hear his OP.8 Piano Sonata in F Minor, tonight, for the first time, from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51py7ciiJaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NLeoEeaKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T%2BrN-ZevL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Hi Leo - yes, many of us know about Burgmuller, but I have just 2 discs (inserted above) - there must be much more to enjoy - I've not thought about him for a while and must put on the discs I own at the moment -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 28, 2011, 06:18:27 PM
Quote from: Leo K on March 28, 2011, 04:57:26 PM
By the way, is anyone here a big fan of Norbert Burgmuller (1810-1836)? I may have time to hear his OP.8 Piano Sonata in F Minor, tonight, for the first time, from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51py7ciiJaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Unfortunately I haven't listened to anything composed by Burgmüller, but this disc will be probably attractive for people interested in his music:

(http://image2.imusic.co.kr/cover/classic/0364/C0364596.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on March 29, 2011, 03:09:28 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 28, 2011, 04:57:26 PM
By the way, is anyone here a big fan of Norbert Burgmuller (1810-1836)?

I've heard only his symphonies and some piano pieces --- seems to me he was an extremely gifted composer who might have made it big had he not died that young. Those discs with SQ's and complete piano music look particulary attractive to me, I'll have to get them sooner or later.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 29, 2011, 03:23:26 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 28, 2011, 04:57:26 PM
By the way, is anyone here a big fan of Norbert Burgmuller (1810-1836)? I may have time to hear his OP.8 Piano Sonata in F Minor, tonight, for the first time, from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51py7ciiJaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
A wonderful disc this. His first symphony has really become a favorite of mine. But everything I've heard of his so far has been melodious and well crafted. He is well worth exploring.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2011, 04:24:25 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 28, 2011, 04:57:26 PM
By the way, is anyone here a big fan of Norbert Burgmuller (1810-1836)? I may have time to hear his OP.8 Piano Sonata in F Minor, tonight, for the first time, from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51py7ciiJaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I think we all are. Despite the other rec's, my choice is these:

[asin]B00004Y6OB[/asin][asin]B00008W7AU[/asin]

His string quartets are rather Late Schubertian in style, and they don't suffer from getting overly heavy the way some Early Romantics tend to do (which IMO his symphonies suffer from). I have very much enjoyed these 2 disks. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 29, 2011, 09:29:46 AM
Thank you all for the recommends and thoughts on Burgmuller. I didn't get a chance to listen to the F Minor Sonata yet, but tonight I'm hoping to get to it, and I'm excited to hear it.

I'm definitely going to try the string quartets too, and the symphonies  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 01, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
I finally heard Burgmuller's sonata, and his 2nd Symphony too, and I'm totally captivated, especially the 2nd Symphony, a composition with subtlety and epic phrases.

(http://www.classical.net/music/recs/images/m/mdg50817.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 01, 2011, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 01, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
I finally heard Burgmuller's sonata, and his 2nd Symphony too, and I'm totally captivated, especially the 2nd Symphony, a composition with subtlety and epic phrases.

(http://www.classical.net/music/recs/images/m/mdg50817.jpg)

I will likely try to find a disk of his pianoforte works. I haven't even dipped a toe in the waters yet, but I nearly always go for the solo piano works early on when exploring a new composer. Perhaps being so exposed brings out the best in a writer. :)  Glad to hear you like it. I'll likely save the orchestral works for last (might as well be true to myself). :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 04 Missa in honorem BVM pt 09 - Benedictus
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 02, 2011, 08:37:15 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 01, 2011, 04:35:12 PM
I will likely try to find a disk of his pianoforte works. I haven't even dipped a toe in the waters yet, but I nearly always go for the solo piano works early on when exploring a new composer. Perhaps being so exposed brings out the best in a writer. :)  Glad to hear you like it. I'll likely save the orchestral works for last (might as well be true to myself). :)

I like that idea of starting with a composer's piano solo works first. I like it for the reason you stated.

Burgmuller's piano sonata is on a grand scale, with very lovely textures in the writing for the solo piano, with fluid phrases and a structure that is flexible and well thought out. The melodies are subtle, quietly moving and profound, like those in the 2nd Symphony, and I look forward to hearing the piano concerto soon, to listen for his quality and style again.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 02, 2011, 09:05:47 AM
I'm listening to this now, for Symphony No.41. It's been a long while since I heard this, and upon revisting I'm enjoying it immensely.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517kVRKJbNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 02, 2011, 10:15:55 AM
So, what do you all think of Leopold Kozeluch?

I just came across his name a few days ago, and I'm intrigued (and I already know I'm going to have to hear his stuff  :P)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2011, 10:40:50 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 02, 2011, 10:15:55 AM
So, what do you all think of Leopold Kozeluch?

I just came across his name a few days ago, and I'm intrigued (and I already know I'm going to have to hear his stuff  :P)

Well, at the very least, Dave, Gabriel and myself like Kozeluch. Brief discussions have jumped up from time to time, but not a steady stream of them. The most likely rec's you will get are his symphonies on the "Contemporaries of Mozart" series on Chandos. And rightly so, since they are not only well done here, but also available (a lot to be said for that).

That would be these:

[asin]B00000I0TJ[/asin]

or more to the point, if you don't have any or many of that series, then these are a far better bargain:

[asin]B003TLRKAK[/asin]

since it is 5 of the better disks in the series for the price of 2!

Now, mind you, Kozeluch was known in his own time as a virtuoso pianist. And true to form, you will be hard pressed to reach in and grab a fortepiano disk of his music. When it was first released, I bought this one (http://www.amazon.com/Leopold-Kozeluh-Jan-Antonin-Kozeluch/dp/B00005A8LB/ref=sr_1_33?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301768768&sr=1-33) for less than $10 brand new. Now it's a million, of course. Anyway, it's a good disk if you can find it reasonably. :-\  There aren't a whole lot of others, but worth looking for. I will be trying one of his piano concerto disks if I can snap one up fair. And there are also works by him scattered all over the place with other composers. I have somehow acquired a considerable number of them, and not found a clinker yet. So my advice is to see what you can actually lay your hands on. You have a very good chance of finding something you like.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Palmer Chamber Orchestra / Palmer Harris / Garrison / Fortunato / Guyer - Hob 28 02 Opera buffa in 2 Acts "La Cantarina" pt 06 Act II. Recitative: Uh, rovinate noi
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 02, 2011, 11:04:14 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 02, 2011, 10:40:50 AM
Well, at the very least, Dave, Gabriel and myself like Kozeluch. Brief discussions have jumped up from time to time, but not a steady stream of them. The most likely rec's you will get are his symphonies on the "Contemporaries of Mozart" series on Chandos. And rightly so, since they are not only well done here, but also available (a lot to be said for that).


Leo - surprised that all I owned of Kozeluch is the one disc of Symphonies in the 6-CD box below, BUT what a box of interesting composers at both ends of the 18th century, and one of my favorite groups!

Now after Gurn's comments, I was eying the Piano Trios  w/ Trio 1790 (fortepiano), another favorite group of a number of members, including myself - has anyone heard this disc - quite inexpensvie on the Amazon MP at the moment!  Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ConcertoKoln/848413757_9F5gB-O.jpg)  (http://www.jazzstore.com/media/products/00/0007/00074913/cache_trio-1790-leopold-anton-kozeluch-3-piano-trios_w200.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 02, 2011, 11:22:23 AM
I would second (or third or fourth) the Contemporaries of Mozart series. Another Kozeluch that I have been considering is this one:
[asin]B0021JLQA6[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2011, 11:30:03 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 02, 2011, 11:22:23 AM
I would second (or third or fourth) the Contemporaries of Mozart series. Another Kozeluch that I have been considering is this one:
[asin]B0021JLQA6[/asin]

Neal, I've been looking at that one too. Don't know much about it, neither the music nor the players. Of course, that's what adventure is about. :)  If you get it before I do, let us know. I'll do the same.   0:)

Quote from: SonicMan on April 02, 2011, 11:04:14 AM
Leo - surprised that all I owned of Kozeluch is the one disc of Symphonies in the 6-CD box below, BUT what a box of interesting composers at both ends of the 18th century, and one of my favorite groups!

Now after Gurn's comments, I was eying the Piano Trios  w/ Trio 1790 (fortepiano), another favorite group of a number of members, including myself - has anyone heard this disc - quite inexpensvie on the Amazon MP at the moment!  Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ConcertoKoln/848413757_9F5gB-O.jpg)  (http://www.jazzstore.com/media/products/00/0007/00074913/cache_trio-1790-leopold-anton-kozeluch-3-piano-trios_w200.jpg)

Dave, I don't have that trios disk, I have this one instead:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/KozeluchOp12trioscover.jpg)

Knowing my fondness for Trio 1790, I can see me having that one soon, especially if it doesn't repeat the material (mine is Op 12 #1-3).

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 02, 2011, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 02, 2011, 11:30:03 AM
Neal, I've been looking at that one too. Don't know much about it, neither the music nor the players. Of course, that's what adventure is about. :)  If you get it before I do, let us know. I'll do the same.   0:)

Will do!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 02, 2011, 11:54:26 AM
Kozeluch, Leopold's output is NOT to be believed!  He left at least 400 works, including 63 Piano Trios!  These have been organized by the musicologist Milan Poštolka, and are listed as P. numbers in the Wiki Article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kozeluch) - the 'Trio 1790' recording has the following: P.IX:15 Gm, P.IX:14 AMj, and P.IX:18 Em - for Gurn's CD listed as Op. 12, I don't see that number under 'Piano Trios' although a number of these works have no opus number assigned?

At any rate, believe that I will put in an order now for the Trio 1790 - $9 on the Amazon MP - can't go too wrong!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2011, 11:59:04 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 02, 2011, 11:54:26 AM
Kozeluch, Leopold's output is NOT to be believed!  He left at least 400 works, including 63 Piano Trios!  These have been organized by the musicologist Milan Poštolka, and are listed as P. numbers in the Wiki Article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kozeluch) - the 'Trio 1790' recording has the following: P.IX:15 Gm, P.IX:14 AMj, and P.IX:18 Em - for Gurn's CD listed as Op. 12, I don't see that number under 'Piano Trios' although a number of these works have no opus number assigned?

At any rate, believe that I will put in an order now for the Trio 1790 - $9 on the Amazon MP - can't go too wrong!  Dave  :D

Dave,
I see the contents of that disk Are P15 in g minor, P14 in A major and P18 in e minor. My disk has Op 12 #2 in A major and Op 12 #3 in g minor, consecutive A M - g m both times. Coincidence? I don't think so. :)  Which is not to say that I won't get it anyway...   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 03, 2011, 06:05:45 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 02, 2011, 11:59:04 AM
Dave,
I see the contents of that disk Are P15 in g minor, P14 in A major and P18 in e minor. My disk has Op 12 #2 in A major and Op 12 #3 in g minor, consecutive A M - g m both times. Coincidence? I don't think so. :)  Which is not to say that I won't get it anyway...   :D

Well, I put in an order for the Kozeluch Piano Trios w/ Trio 1790 - love that group and decided to listen to several of their other recordings; this time of one of the older & the youngest sons of Papa Bach!  Love those covers -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachCPETrios/383746032_HFUfB-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachJSTrios/351239069_N9Tzy-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 03, 2011, 08:29:01 AM
I am really excited about checking these recommends for Kozeluch...thank you all!

8) ;D ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 03, 2011, 10:36:30 AM
Wow! I'm loving what I hearing here! Sonatas by Carl Loewe (30 November 1796 – 20 April 1869), currently I'm listening to the Grosse Sonate in E Major (with a baritone and soprano in the second movement), from:

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl100/l158/l15807vbfty.jpg)

(I mentioned enjoying his D minor Symphony earlier in the thread...great stuff)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 04, 2011, 09:23:06 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 02, 2011, 10:40:50 AM
Well, at the very least, Dave, Gabriel and myself like Kozeluch. Brief discussions have jumped up from time to time, but not a steady stream of them. The most likely rec's you will get are his symphonies on the "Contemporaries of Mozart" series on Chandos. And rightly so, since they are not only well done here, but also available (a lot to be said for that).

That would be these:

[asin]B00000I0TJ[/asin]


Now, mind you, Kozeluch was known in his own time as a virtuoso pianist. And true to form, you will be hard pressed to reach in and grab a fortepiano disk of his music. When it was first released, I bought this one (http://www.amazon.com/Leopold-Kozeluh-Jan-Antonin-Kozeluch/dp/B00005A8LB/ref=sr_1_33?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301768768&sr=1-33) for less than $10 brand new. Now it's a million, of course. Anyway, it's a good disk if you can find it reasonably. :-\  There aren't a whole lot of others, but worth looking for. I will be trying one of his piano concerto disks if I can snap one up fair. And there are also works by him scattered all over the place with other composers. I have somehow acquired a considerable number of them, and not found a clinker yet. So my advice is to see what you can actually lay your hands on. You have a very good chance of finding something you like.


Wow! Gurn's recommend above of Kozeluch symphonies is an amazing disk  ;D

I've heard the first two symphonies so far and they are very enjoyable indeed  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 09:34:11 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 04, 2011, 09:23:06 AM
Wow! Gurn's recommend above of Kozeluch symphonies is an amazing disk  ;D

I've heard the first two symphonies so far and they are very enjoyable indeed  :D

Delighted you liked it, Leo. I like that entire series, I have yet to run across a loser in the lot. But this is a good example of why one needs to look past some of the stuff one reads about 'lesser' composers and give them a try if possible. If you go by what you read, there were only 1 or 2 composers at any given time actively working in Vienna from 1785 - 1825. :D  (Wranitzky might be another to check out. Just sayin')

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 04, 2011, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: GurnDelighted you liked it, Leo. I like that entire series, I have yet to run across a loser in the lot. But this is a good example of why one needs to look past some of the stuff one reads about 'lesser' composers and give them a try if possible. If you go by what you read, there were only 1 or 2 composers at any given time actively working in Vienna from 1785 - 1825.   (Wranitzky might be another to check out. Just sayin')

Indeed! Tracking down these lessor known composers has revitalized my interest in music, which was already strong, into a kind of obsession! I wish I was a music historian so I could live with this stuff :P



Anyways, here is a fantastic disk of fortepiano sonatas by Johann Gottfried Eckard, played by Bridgette Haudebourg, the same pianist featured on the disk of Kozeluch works Gurn mentioned above.



I love the sound of the fortepiano on this disk, and the playing is immaculate. I've never this composer before and I would love to get his complete keyboard works when the budget allows  ;)

Here is all the Wiki has on Johann Eckard:

Johann Gottfried Eckard (Eckhardt) (1735–1809) was a German pianist and composer. Born in Augsburg, he was apprenticed to a copper maker. He moved to Paris in 1758 and stayed there until his death. He was an early champion of the fortepiano over the harpsichord, being the first composer in Paris to write sonatas expressly for the instrument, and was as a composer stylistically somewhat similar to C. P. E. Bach. As a performer he was a famed improviser. Mozart, who had visited Paris in 1763/64, based a movement of his third piano concerto on a sonata movement by Eckhard.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 09:47:15 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 04, 2011, 09:39:43 AM
Indeed! Tracking down these lessor known composers has revitalized my interest in music, which was already strong, into a kind of obsession! I wish I was a music historian so I could live with this stuff :P

I was lucky; when I first started out collecting classical music, my mentor was already off into 'lesser knowns' so I actually was able to treat them on their own terms. I feel richer for it. :)

QuoteAnyways, here is a fantastic disk of fortepiano sonatas by Johann Gottfried Eckard, played by Bridgette Haudebourg, the same pianist featured on the disk of Kozeluch works Gurn mentioned above.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QXNP31F2L.jpg)

I love the sound of the fortepiano on this disk, and the playing is immaculate. I've never this composer before and I would love to get his complete keyboard works when the budget allows  ;)

Here is all the Wiki has on Johann Eckard:

Johann Gottfried Eckard (Eckhardt) (1735–1809) was a German pianist and composer. Born in Augsburg, he was apprenticed to a copper maker. He moved to Paris in 1758 and stayed there until his death. He was an early champion of the fortepiano over the harpsichord, being the first composer in Paris to write sonatas expressly for the instrument, and was as a composer stylistically somewhat similar to C. P. E. Bach. As a performer he was a famed improviser. Mozart, who had visited Paris in 1763/64, based a movement of his third piano concerto on a sonata movement by Eckhard.

Interesting background stuff, Leo.I have a couple of disks of Exkard and quite enjoy them. I see the one I have on Zig-Zag isn't available any longer. So it goes. I'll have to pick up that Bridgette Haudebourg disk. She does play very well indeed. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 04, 2011, 10:54:11 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 10:26:03 AM
So, a few weeks back I mentioned that I would be re-tagging my music tracks to reflect year of composition instead of year of recording. 

And not long ago I got the symphonies and quartets of the Beethoven done (still need to do the piano sonatas and other chamber music) and this weekend started in on Haydn. 

The Quartets did not present a problem but the keyboard sonatas were a bit more sketchy.  I got through the symphonies without much trouble - but when I hit the Scottish & Welsh songs - well, these will be a huge mess, so I intend to put them at the end of the line and only get to them when I have time.

I'm using Grove Music Online for the dating and it is interesting how the Brautigam and Schornsheim sets use a slightly different list of works, and only in a few cases did the numbering not match up (in one case, I think H. XVII:D.2, there were no dates given in the Grove list).  It is also interesting how the symphonies are somewhat a mess, with the Hoboken numbers being at this point not at all chronological.  While the newer research has nailed down a different order of composition, recordings still use the H. numbering - which actually is still the most convenient and consistent way to identify the works even if the numbering is out of order.

Next up will be the piano trios, and hopefully these won't present the kind of problems I had with the keyboard works.

Once I get the Mozart catalog done, I will have a nice sampling of music and will able to create playlists for individual years or a range of years and even sort them chronologically - which will be fun.

After these three major composers are finished, the hard part will be getting dates for the myriads of recordings I have of lesser known composers from this period and for whom DOCs are less documented, or at least less conveniently found.

That is a good idea, and you now have me considering managing my files this way.

If I recall, the Haydn piano trios may be a little confusing as well ragarding catalogue numbers, etc. I haven't looked at those numbers in a while, so I can't exactly say at the moment. Hopefully they won't be a problem.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 11:29:06 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 10:26:03 AM
So, a few weeks back I mentioned that I would be re-tagging my music tracks to reflect year of composition instead of year of recording. 

And not long ago I got the symphonies and quartets of the Beethoven done (still need to do the piano sonatas and other chamber music) and this weekend started in on Haydn. 

The Quartets did not present a problem but the keyboard sonatas were a bit more sketchy.  I got through the symphonies without much trouble - but when I hit the Scottish & Welsh songs - well, these will be a huge mess, so I intend to put them at the end of the line and only get to them when I have time.

I'm using Grove Music Online for the dating and it is interesting how the Brautigam and Schornsheim sets use a slightly different list of works, and only in a few cases did the numbering not match up (in one case, I think H. XVII:D.2, there were no dates given in the Grove list).  It is also interesting how the symphonies are somewhat a mess, with the Hoboken numbers being at this point not at all chronological.  While the newer research has nailed down a different order of composition, recordings still use the H. numbering - which actually is still the most convenient and consistent way to identify the works even if the numbering is out of order.

Next up will be the piano trios, and hopefully these won't present the kind of problems I had with the keyboard works.

Once I get the Mozart catalog done, I will have a nice sampling of music and will able to create playlists for individual years or a range of years and even sort them chronologically - which will be fun.

After these three major composers are finished, the hard part will be getting dates for the myriads of recordings I have of lesser known composers from this period and for whom DOCs are less documented, or at least less conveniently found.

Leon, Dude! Listen, I am at least 80% of the way through the Scottish/Welsh songs right now, and also nearly done with all the other works too. There is no point in both of us working on Haydn, why don't you let me do it and you can do the others, then we'll swap. Hell, I'm 2 years into this project already, someone else might as well benefit from it too. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 04, 2011, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 11:31:52 AM
Although it sounds very tedius, it is not really so bad.  I am using iTunes and wish there were more options for global editing, it is possible that if you are using a differnet media library software, it could be accomplished with less work.

I too use iTunes to manage my music libarary. I simply love this program, and never imagined I would almost prefer an iPod over CDs, but I almost do  :-X ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 11:38:08 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 11:31:52 AM
Although it sounds very tedius, it is not really so bad.  I am using iTunes and wish there were more options for global editing, it is possible that if you are using a differnet media library software, it could be accomplished with less work.

I use MP3 Tag and it's a piece of cake. It isn't the tagging etc., it's the research that is time-consuming. And of course, as you discovered, with Haydn there are a lot of decisions to make. As a quick example, the are the first 12 string trios  (Hob. V:1-12) and the date given for them is "circa 1757". So, what do you do there? What I did was make 1-3 in 1756, 4-6 in 1757 etc. That way when I play back, I don't get a big string of all 12 at the same time. And of course, 'circa 1757' is just one of several dates that are proposed for these works. Haydn is fun! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 11:40:20 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
Roger - I will begin working on Mozart instead of more Haydn.  One thing iTunes is able to do is copy the track listing, so I can export that into Excel and post a nice list.

Yes, I'm doing mine in Excel anyway, so that will work just fine. Somewhere here (maybe in the "Haydn Symphonies" thread?) I posted the data on chronology of the symphonies, and Op 106 and Scarpia organized it into a nice looking list. You might search that up and it will get you started on that part anyway. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 11:40:02 AM
Oh, I too love the convenience of the iPod and in general don't have any real gripes with iTunes.  But, there is no easy way edit all the same works in various recordings (at least I've not found one other than highlighting those tracks manually), so you end up having to plug in the years for the same works multiple times.

Just FYI, although this is just what I do, which is that I put in the "Album" field of all the tracks the year. So in Haydn, for example, I then just choose the album "1770" and get a nice playlist with lots of variety from symphonies to quartets to an opera. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 12:27:03 PM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 11:51:01 AM
I remember those posts  - but I ended up using a different list I found with the Hoboken numbers and the new numbering, and have finished the symphonies.  I'm hoping Mozart is easier than Haydn.  Beethoven wasn't so bad, unless the piano sonatas are a mess.

Here is the best Beethoven list. Totally chronological. You'll love it (once you get past all the stuff you never knew existed). I suggest using Word's search function.... :)

http://www.mediafire.com/?12urm4wmmyr



8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 12:31:09 PM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 11:44:16 AM
Yes, the research for all but the most well known works will prove to be the time consuming aspect.  So far I've only taken on those sets with well established cataloging.  And then, of course as I mentioned earlier - finding dates for someone like Abel, and others, will be a bear.

A bear indeed! But for a certain type of fanatic ( 0:) ), just the thing to while away those nights spent listening to music :)   Actually, you will be surprised just how much is out there, data-wise. It's just a matter of digging it up and making it work for you. I find things incidentally all the time. I make a lot of notes that I can't relate to, but that's a personal failing.   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2011, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: Leon on April 04, 2011, 12:46:13 PM
Nice!  Interesting that there are 62 pieces before Op. 1, No. 1 shows up.  :)

Yes it is. If you use that (Bia 023 for example) number as a prefix on the file name and tag title, it forces chronology in there. You can use the opus or WoO or Hess number afterward to have it sensible. For example, this is a Beethoven file name from my collection:

Bia 087_1 Op 002 #1 Sonata #1 in f for Fortepiano 1st mvmt.mp3.

As long as you use the leading zeros it will always be right. Just a thought.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 04, 2011, 04:51:16 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 04, 2011, 09:39:43 AM
Anyways, here is a fantastic disk of fortepiano sonatas by Johann Gottfried Eckard, played by Bridgette Haudebourg, the same pianist featured on the disk of Kozeluch works Gurn mentioned above.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QXNP31F2L.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61L8M8ZqkHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I love the sound of the fortepiano on this disk, and the playing is immaculate. I've never this composer before and I would love to get his complete keyboard works when the budget allows  ;)


Leo - I just have 1 disc of this composer (added above on fortepiano) - but the one that REALLY interests me is the one shown below - i.e. Spanyi on the clavichord & tangent piano; 2-disc set but a little too much for me on this label on the Amazon MP at the time! Dave  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mS2I4KcZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 05, 2011, 09:11:04 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 04, 2011, 04:51:16 PM
Leo - I just have 1 disc of this composer (added above on fortepiano) - but the one that REALLY interests me is the one shown below - i.e. Spanyi on the clavichord & tangent piano; 2-disc set but a little too much for me on this label on the Amazon MP at the time! Dave  :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41mS2I4KcZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Dave, thats the set I have my eye on too! I already spent my music-budget this month, but in time, this shall be mine also 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 05, 2011, 02:53:58 PM
Guys - at the very bottom I left a post on the Vanhal Cello Concertos performed by Peter Szabo et al (about 6 pages ago) - we had a number of subsequent posts on modern vs. period instruments in these recordings, assuming finally that the cello was 'modern' - well, I sent Peter an e-mail not expecting a response but today did receive a message from him - quoted immediately below for those who may be interested!  Dave

QuoteDear David,

Thank you for your positive opinion.  I am performing these concertos on a modern instrument, and the orchestra is playing also with modern instruments.The pitch is 442 Hertz.  The timpani in the first C Major Concerto is a baroque timpani, the horns in the A Major Concerto are nature horns.  The first C Major Cello Concerto on the recording has a version for viola also, but with a different orchestration.

Plese don't hesitate to contact me if do you have more questions about the recording.

Regards,  Peter Szabo



QuoteJust acquired the disc shown below of the composer's Cello Concertos performed by Peter Szabo & Sinfonietta Pannonica; Vanhal was a popular composer, teacher, & performer who spent most of his career in Vienna during the time of Mozart & Haydn - he was a part of the oft famous String Quartet in that city which featured Mozart, Haydn, Dittersdorf, and Vanhal, with the latter playing the cello!

As mentioned in a previous post of mine, would not being there be a wonderful experience!  So, these works are of particular interest, i.e. being cello works of Vanhal - short but quite positive review attached from the ARG (Mar-Apr 2011 issue) - quite well done and a nice complement to the other works available from this neglected classical composer -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/VanhalCelloConcs/1219601006_YCSNL-O.jpg)  (http://peter-szabo.com/en/reviews/images/peter_szabo03.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2011, 03:05:30 PM
Dave,
That is so cool! Nice he wasn't too 'busy' to reply to a sincere fan's question. :)  Bunny would be so pleased to see they used a baroque timpani... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio - Hob 05 18 Divertimento á tre in Bb for 2 Violins & Bass 1st mvmt - Moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 05, 2011, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 05, 2011, 03:05:30 PM
Dave,
That is so cool! Nice he wasn't too 'busy' to reply to a sincere fan's question. :)  Bunny would be so pleased to see they used a baroque timpani... :)

Hi Gurn - I was surprised because his reply was nearly a month - but GREAT to get some personal response from the specific instruments & timings used - kind of a combination on this recording; still not completely PI, but excellent!  Dave  :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 06, 2011, 08:02:50 AM
Hummel, Johann (1778-1837) - Piano  Septets w/ Solamente Naturali and several pianists - this recording has been discussed briefly in other threads; and I already have a nice version on Hyperion but w/ modern instruments - believe I like this one better but would need to do some A-B listening, I guess.

But if you do not have these Hummel works and enjoy larger chamber groups, this recording is easily recommended; and if you like PI performances, then probably a MUST, especially at the Brilliant price.  The fortepiano used is by Jacob Bertsche, ca. 1817 (restored by Robert Brown, Salzburg;  A=430) - group picture below along w/ a description of the instruments used in each work - :D

Septet, Op. 74 - Fortepiano, flute, oboe, horn, viola, cello, & double bass

Septet, Op. 114 - Fortepiano, flute, clarinet, horn, violin, cello, & double bass

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HummelSeptetsPI1/1242089244_g4ZfT-O.jpg)   (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HummelSeptetsPI2/1242089263_UD57H-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 08, 2011, 05:22:59 PM
Is anyone here a fan of Julius Reubke (March 23, 1834 – June 3, 1858)? I just heard about him today, and I'm interested in listening to his stuff soon!

Quoth the wiki:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Julius_Reubke.jpg/220px-)

Julius Reubke (March 23, 1834 – June 3, 1858) was a German composer, pianist and organist. In his short life — he died at the age of 24 — he composed the Sonata on the 94th Psalm, in C minor, which was and still is considered one of the greatest organ works in the repertoire.

Born in Hausneindorf, a small village in the region of the Harz Mountains, Julius Reubke was the eldest son of organ and piano builder Adolf Reubke (1805-1875). Of Julius's five siblings, two brothers, Emil (1836-1884) and Karl (1840-1860), worked with their father; Emil became a partner in 1860 and owned the company from 1872. His brother Otto (1842-1913) was also a pianist, organist and composer; he prepared the Sonata on the 94th Psalm for its first publication in August 1871. Otto settled in Halle, where he was a professor at the University of Halle, and became its director in 1892. There were also two sisters, Meta and Alma.

Reubke's first musical instruction was in Quedlinburg with Hermann Bönicke (1821-1879). He moved to Berlin in April or October 1851, where he continued his musical education at the conservatory there, which had been founded in November 1850 by Theodor Kullak, with whom he studied piano, Adolf Bernhard Marx, with whom he studied composition, and Julius Stern. In Berlin, he encountered the Neudeutsche Schule with conductor Hans von Bülow and organist Alexander Winterberger, both associated with Franz Liszt.

When Liszt visited Berlin in December 1855, he arranged, on the recommendation of Bülow, to teach Reubke piano and composition from February 1856 in Weimar, and allowed him to live at the Altenburg house he kept. It was in this environment that Reubke composed his two major works, the Piano Sonata in B-flat minor, which he composed from December 1856 to March 1857, and the Sonata on the 94th Psalm in C minor, for organ, which he finished a month later; he also considered writing an opera. The organ sonata was dedicated to Professor Carl Riedel; its premiere was by Reubke on the Ladegast organ (1853-1855) of Merseburg Cathedral on June 17, 1857. Since its composition, it has been considered one of the pinnacles of the Romantic repertoire.

His health was already in decline at the time of his great compositions:

" Playing us his sonata, seated in his characteristically bowed form at the piano, sunk in his creation, Reubke forgot everything about him; and we then looked at his pale appearance, at the unnatural shine of his gleaming eyes, heard his heavy breath, and were aware of how wordless fatigue overwhelmed him after such hours of excitement. We suspected then that he would not be with us long. "    — Richard Pohl

He moved to Dresden in December 1857. By this time, he was suffering from worsening tuberculosis, and did not have the energy to play or compose. He moved to the health resort at Pillnitz in May 1858, where he died at the Zum Goldenen Löwen inn a few days later, at the age of 24. He was buried near the church of Maria am Wasser in Pillnitz-Hosterwitz on June 7. Zum Goldenen Löwen housed Vietnamese guest workers in the 1980s and has stood vacant for more than 10 years.

He was one of Liszt's favourite pupils; after his death, he wrote a letter of sympathy to Reubke's father:

" Truly no one could feel more deeply the loss which Art has suffered in your Julius, than the one who has followed with admiring sympathy his noble, constant, and successful strivings in these latter years, and who will ever bear his friendship faithfully in mind "    — Franz Liszt

:)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2011, 05:28:42 PM
No, he's too late along to have attracted my attention until now. Have you actually found any of his music, or are you just intrigued by his bio? I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic Dave has his complete works... :D  Do let us know if you go down that road though, he sounds interesting.   :)

8)

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Now playing:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 086 Symphony in D 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro con spirito
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 08, 2011, 06:08:50 PM
Leo & Gurn - don't own any works nor have ever heard of this composer, i.e. Julius Reubke - seems to have been quite promising but the scourge of the 19th century, TB, did him in @ a tragically young age!  Seems like the CPO disc below pretty much covers his output - so if others own this recording, please comment -  :D


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61S9r5k6GzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 09, 2011, 06:29:32 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 08, 2011, 06:08:50 PM
Leo & Gurn - don't own any works nor have ever heard of this composer, i.e. Julius Reubke - seems to have been quite promising but the scourge of the 19th century, TB, did him in @ a tragically young age!  Seems like the CPO disc below pretty much covers his output - so if others own this recording, please comment -  :D


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61S9r5k6GzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Dave,

That is the recording that I want and plan to get! That set will pretty much cover his output as you mentioned above.

Quote from: GurnNo, he's too late along to have attracted my attention until now. Have you actually found any of his music, or are you just intrigued by his bio? I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic Dave has his complete works...   Do let us know if you go down that road though, he sounds interesting.

Gurn,

Yes, I have downloaded his Piano Sonata in Bb minor, and I'm about to listen to it this morning. The recording is from this disk:



And yes, his short life intrigues me, and it's terrible to hear of a promising life cut so short  :'(





Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 09, 2011, 06:32:55 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 06, 2011, 08:02:50 AM
Hummel, Johann (1778-1837) - Piano  Septets w/ Solamente Naturali and several pianists - this recording has been discussed briefly in other threads; and I already have a nice version on Hyperion but w/ modern instruments - believe I like this one better but would need to do some A-B listening, I guess.

But if you do not have these Hummel works and enjoy larger chamber groups, this recording is easily recommended; and if you like PI performances, then probably a MUST, especially at the Brilliant price.  The fortepiano used is by Jacob Bertsche, ca. 1817 (restored by Robert Brown, Salzburg;  A=430) - group picture below along w/ a description of the instruments used in each work - :D

Septet, Op. 74 - Fortepiano, flute, oboe, horn, viola, cello, & double bass

Septet, Op. 114 - Fortepiano, flute, clarinet, horn, violin, cello, & double bass

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HummelSeptetsPI1/1242089244_g4ZfT-O.jpg)   (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HummelSeptetsPI2/1242089263_UD57H-O.jpg)

By the way. I really appreciate your thoughts on these recordings above, and thanks for the recommend here. I am about to listen to Hummel for the first time, a disk of his piano sonatas:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5175a5kxsPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 09, 2011, 07:30:03 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 09, 2011, 06:32:55 AM
By the way. I really appreciate your thoughts on these recordings above, and thanks for the recommend here. I am about to listen to Hummel for the first time, a disk of his piano sonatas:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5175a5kxsPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FPD3QVZTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Hello Leo - I really enjoyed the Hummel Septet disc on Brilliant - the recorded sound is excellent, and the fortepiano does add a completely different sound vs. my other recording on 'modern' instruments; and the keyboard used is quite appropriate for his time.  I purchased the disc based on a review in the Am Record Guide (Nov-Dec 2010 issue) - I've attached a copy for your perusal; the reviewer is obviously NOT a PI fan, but his only quibble was w/ the 'natural' horn - not a big deal for me.  So, if you want these works w/ the period keyboard instrument, then I would recommend the performance; believe that some of the other GMGers have given the recording positive comments.

BTW, if you like those Piano Sonatas, which I own - you might want to try the Piano Concertos w/ Hough (pic added above) - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 09, 2011, 11:07:18 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cH4RRKM1L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

I had my first listen to Julius Reubke's Piano Sonata in Bb minor, and I am taken to the skies with it! I need more listens before giving detailed thoughts, but the soundworld is very Lisztian (of course this isn't surprising, as Liszt was his teacher) and full of poetic touches and rumination. There is a wonderful, tacit feeling of epic intimacy that my favorite sonatas exhibit, like Burgmuller, and Schubert to name a few.

VERY beautiful and breathtaking music, a complete and realized soundworld from Julius Reubke.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 10, 2011, 06:46:12 AM
Perhaps this has been discussed at some point?

[asin]B002586YHI[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WW66UDLNL._SS400_.jpg)

I am enjoying the music of Adam Valentin Volckmar (1770-1851) for the first time this morning.

Beautiful work from the Arte Ensemble in this recording. The music reminds me of Hoffmeister's Clarinet Quartets. I simply love it.

Here is a review from: http://insideireland.ie/2009/10/09/archive1624-1684/

QuoteAdam Valentin Volckmar: Chamber Music (Quartets and Trios); Arte Emsemble.

Adam Valentin Volckmar (1770 – 1851) was a German music teacher and composer, and father of the talented organist Wilhelm Volckmar.

While his son is still remembered today however, Volckmar senior and his compositions faded into obscurity following his death. In March 2008, at a concert to celebrate the centenary of the Rintelner Museum and supported by German radio station NDR, some of Volckmar's works were performed.

After the success of the performance, NDR worked with Arte Ensemble to produce a recording of a selection of Volckmar's chamber music, in an effort to bring the world's attention back to this forgotten composer.

Broadly speaking the music itself is what would be expected from a German composer living in Volckmar's era. There is a strong influence of Mozart, along with many features that are reminiscent of Beethoven.

Being himself an organist of some renown, the keyboard parts in Volckmar's compositions are quite complex and require a high degree of proficiency in the instrument.

Although Wilhelm Volckmar frequently performed his father's works following his death, many believe that is was the difficulty inherent in the pieces which dissuaded other musicians from studying and proliferating them.

As is to be expected, both of the trios chosen for this recording feature much intricate piano accompaniment. This instantly grabs the attention, which is occasionally to the solo instrument's detriment in the clarinet trio, but it is a marked feature of Volckmar's style.

His approach to chamber music at first appears to be the standard for that time, but tends towards flashes of originality that are all the more noticeable for the conformity of the preceding passages. Unsurprisingly, these stand-out moments are largely pianocentric, with unexpected flourishes and sudden crescendos disrupting the principal themes and phrases.

It is too early, and this is too small a sample, to tell how Volckmar's music will be judged by today's audience. Personally, I tended to enjoy the sudden breaks with convention, although they were at times excessive and overly distracting.

I would have really loved this recording however if the music had had a little more power and intensity – at times it felt to me like Beethoven-lite, although this could simply be due to the fact that the collection is limited to chamber music, which at the time was generally intended to be light and cheerful.

Hopefully this release will generate enough interest in Adam Valentin Volckmar that further recordings will be made, and we can get a true insight into the passions and sentiments of this forgotten composer.


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 10, 2011, 07:01:54 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 10, 2011, 06:46:12 AM
Perhaps this has been discussed at some point?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oc8b4VheL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KozeluchPTrios1790/1245213954_n5ZcE-S.jpg)

I am enjoying the music of Adam Valentin Volckmar (1770-1851) for the first time this morning.

Beautiful work from the Arte Ensemble in this recording. The music reminds me of Hoffmeister's Clarinet Quartets. I simply love it.


Leo - you're becoming a 'grave robber' digging up all of these forgotten composers!  Reminds me of Gurn & I, et al, especially in the old forum starting threads on unknown composer's that we now know quite well!  :)

Now, I had heard the name Volckmar and thought that I had at least 1 disc by this composer, but NO - plus, I'm a big fan of the clarinet (assume a modern instrument here) in this period; and also a CPO aficionado, so likely will be an addition ot my collection!

BTW, I've acquired and listened to the Kozeluch Piano Trios - great & up front fortepiano playing and transitional works bridging the classical-early romantic periods - again if you like that keyboard instrument, this one sounds wonderful - Dave  :D   P.S. pic of latter added above.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 10, 2011, 07:09:56 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 10, 2011, 07:01:54 AM
Leo - you're becoming a 'grave robber' digging up all of these forgotten composers!  Reminds me of Gurn & I, et al, especially in the old forum starting threads on unknown composer's that we now know quite well!  :)

;D

Quote from: SonicmanNow, I had heard the name Volckmar and thought that I had at least 1 disc by this composer, but NO - plus, I'm a big fan of the clarinet (assume a modern instrument here) in this period; and also a CPO aficionado, so likely will be an addition ot my collection!

I am very sure this disk is right up your alley! And yes, a modern clarinet is used here, I'm pretty sure.

Quote from: SonicmanBTW, I've acquired and listened to the Kozeluch Piano Trios - great & up front fortepiano playing and transitional works bridging the classical-early romantic periods - again if you like that keyboard instrument, this one sounds wonderful - Dave  :D   P.S. pic of latter added above.

Thank you for the thoughts on the Kozeluch. I am still really blown away by his symphonies, as well as one of his piano concertos, and can't wait to hear his piano trios! I will definitely have to aquire these soon  ;)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 10, 2011, 07:32:33 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cH4RRKM1L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

From this recording (on which I first heard Julius Reubke's Piano Sonata in Bb minor) I went on to listen to the other work, the amazing Grand Sonata in G minor, Op.3. by Christian Ludwig Schunke (1810-1834).

I am on my third time around with this piece (after my Volckmar listening) this morning, and I am completely enchanted by this early romantic sonata, full of deep feeling and pondering. The first movement begins quietly and meditatively, and at times a forceful passion breaks through the melancholy quiet. The Scherzo is stormy and dark. The Andante recalls nostalgic longing, with a hymn-like atmosphere. The Finale is again reflective, with passages showing action, perhaps suggesting a journey is all it's epic circumstances.

Here is a little more on this composer, thanks to the wiki:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Ludwig_Schunke_1834.jpg/300px-)

QuoteLudwig Schuncke was born in Kassel in 1810. His father and first teacher Johann Gottfried Schuncke (1777–1840), and his uncle Johann Michael Schuncke (1778-1821), were both professional horn players.

He demonstrated his talents very early, and they were encouraged. In March 1822, aged only 11, he performed Johann Nepomuk Hummel's Piano Concerto in A minor, Op. 85, under the direction of Louis Spohr. He then went on a concert tour of Germany. Carl Maria von Weber expressed his approval of Schuncke's early compositions.

In 1828, he was one of the four pianists who played Henri Bertini's transcription of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony for eight hands, the others being Bertini himself, Franz Liszt and Sowinsky.

He went to Paris for study, where his main teachers were Friedrich Kalkbrenner, Anton Reicha and Henri Herz, and where he also had friendships with people such as Hector Berlioz, Sigismond Thalberg and Johann Peter Pixis. In Paris, he made his living by demonstrating Duport pianos, and he also lived in Duport's household. After completing his studies, he returned to Germany. In Stuttgart, he made the acquaintance of Frédéric Chopin after hearing him perform his Piano Concerto No. 1 in E minor. Schuncke dedicated his Capriccio in C minor, Op.10, to Chopin.[1] He then moved to Vienna, Prague and Dresden, appearing in concert, before finally settling in Leipzig in December 1833. He lived in a boarding house and his room was next door to that of Robert Schumann, whose very close friend he became. Schuncke was one of the co-founders of the Neue Zeitschrift für Musik, and one of its early contributors, under the pseudonym "Jonathan". He was also a member of Schumann's Davidsbund.


The only portrait of Ludwig Schuncke, done on his deathbedHe appeared as soloist at the Leipzig Gewandhaus on 27 January 1834. In one article, Schumann favourably compared the playing of the emerging Franz Liszt to that of Ludwig Schuncke.

Schuncke dedicated his Grande Sonate in G minor, Op. 3, to Schumann, who greatly admired the work, and in turn dedicated his Toccata in C major, Op. 7, to Schuncke on its publication in 1834. In a letter dated 4 September 1834, Schumann wrote that his whole wealth could be summed up in three names: Henriette Voigt, Ernestine von Fricken and Ludwig Schuncke.

Schumann's Carnaval, Op. 9, had its origin in a set of variations on a Sehnsuchtswalzer by Franz Schubert. The catalyst for the variations may have been a work for piano and orchestra on the same theme by Schuncke (his Op. 14). Schumann felt that Schuncke's heroic treatment was an inappropriate reflection of the tender nature of the Schubert piece, so he set out to approach his variations in a more intimate way, for piano solo. He worked on the piece in 1833 and 1834. The work was never completed, however, but he did re-use the opening 24 measures for the opening of Carnaval.

Schuncke helped Schumann through his crisis of 1833-34, in which he had a serious depressive illness leading to a suicide attempt, and his brother and sister-in-law both died. Schumann in turn nursed Schuncke through his own final illness. Ludwig Schuncke died on 7 December 1834, two weeks before his 24th birthday, of tuberculosis. He is buried on the old Johannesfriedhof in Leipzig. Schumann forever after kept Schuncke's death bed portrait in his own study, in a gallery of pictures hung above his piano.


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 10, 2011, 07:54:02 AM
These are the disks I have been exploring in regards to Kozeluch, after my exposure to his symphonies...oh my...these are HEAVEN.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WLhV9lFEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kzfrF1%2B4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Here are some past quotes from posts early in this thread, on Kozeluch, that I have appreciated, and quote below:

Quote from: Gabriel
Kozeluch wrote some very interesting works. I remember I bought one CD of his because I noticed it included a sinfonia concertante for mandolin, trumpet, piano, double-bass and orchestra. My immediate question was how could anyone manage to write coherently for so different instruments (I guess I don't know other concertante work in all classicism with such an extraordinary combination). I wondered about a possible solution most of all concerning the first movement, where a sonata/concerto form is supposed to happen. Kozeluch's solution was, to me, brilliant. He divided the instrumental forces in three: the orchestra (1); trumpet, mandolin and double-bass (2); and the piano (3). So, the first exposition - traditionally orchestral - was taken by the orchestra and the trumpet, mandolin and double-bass, while just in the second exposition - traditionally for the soloist(s) - the piano took the leading role. The further exchanges are all happy: Kozeluch keeps an impressive balance in a 15-minute movement, offering to the listener very happy ideas, all suitable to the nature of each of the participants (v. gr., martial calls from the trumpet, intimate passages from the mandolin). The exchanges increase as the end approaches, so a bit before the last cadential section there is a particularly enjoyable moment when the piano keeps a harmonical support for the dialogue of the other three soloists. The sound is typically classical, so it is not something that calls your attention at once; but when I realize the "effortless effort" that Kozeluch does with this formation, I cannot but admire such a natural effect. (That naturality, so appreciated during the classical era, is often disregarded in our days... unfortunately).

Quote from: GurnKozeluch was actually best known as a piano virtuoso and composer of sonatas. Everything else he did was an adjunct to that. In addition to his symphonies on Chandos, and the odd clarinet concerto here and there, I have one disk of his works by Christine Faron on fortepiano, and they are really quite nice.

"The periodical "Pfeffer und Salz" from April 5, 1786 reported, "It is no secret that Herr Leopold Kozeluch competes with Mozart. His art on the pianoforte is not to be judged, for he is perhaps the only virtuoso in Vienna who never plays in public. His compositions, on the other hand, bespeak an excellent mind, and no other fault is to be found with them than they are too difficult....In general, there are amateur ladies here who play such concertos as they have learnt almost as well as Mozart himself."

And he is also the composer who made this famous statement at Mozart's death: 'Of course it's too bad about such a great genius, but it's good for us that he's dead. Because if he had lived longer, really the world would not have given a single piece of bread for our compositions.'

I can recommend Kozeluch's music at the very least in that everything I have heard from him has been above average. And the average in those times was quite good.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on April 11, 2011, 08:40:06 AM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HummelSeptetsPI1/1242089244_g4ZfT-O.jpg)

Quote from: SonicMan on April 09, 2011, 07:30:03 AM
Hello Leo - I really enjoyed the Hummel Septet disc on Brilliant - the recorded sound is excellent, and the fortepiano does add a completely different sound vs. my other recording on 'modern' instruments; and the keyboard used is quite appropriate for his time.  I purchased the disc based on a review in the Am Record Guide (Nov-Dec 2010 issue) - I've attached a copy for your perusal; the reviewer is obviously NOT a PI fan, but his only quibble was w/ the 'natural' horn - not a big deal for me.  So, if you want these works w/ the period keyboard instrument, then I would recommend the performance; believe that some of the other GMGers have given the recording positive comments.

Hi David, the Am record Guide review is ludicrous. Any sensible review should judge the music and a period instruments performance on its own terms. Telling us that he hates the recording just because it is on period instruments, is totally useless and tells us nothing we didn't already knew. Of course, I can sympathise with the poor guy: a Helter Skelter performance of a composer who pulls all the plugs on special effects, involving a 19th century Viennese grand piano and, above all, period winds - clarinet, oboe, flute and natural horn - can be too much for the faint hearted. :o ;D But it is exactly what this music needs: it is designed to show off and sound daring. I don't know if I could endure the endless cascades of arpeggios otherwise - I feel any performance on "modern" instruments is bound to be deadly boring.
I particularly like the Viennese piano grand by Jacob Bertsche, which looks like this instrument of two years before:

(http://www.fortepiano.at/media/gallery04/01.jpg) (http://www.fortepiano.at/media/gallery04/08.jpg)

Musically, Hummel's virtuosism mixed in with intimate Biedemeier style preciousness sounds close to Mendelssohn's piano concertos and preminiscent of Chopin's concertos and Liszt. Schubert's flashy cousin, so to speak... ;D I wouldn't be in the mood for this every day but when I will, this performance does the trick giving the music the authenticity and the (rustic) flair it thrives on.

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 11, 2011, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: Que on April 11, 2011, 08:40:06 AM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HummelSeptetsPI1/1242089244_g4ZfT-O.jpg)

Hi David, the Am record Guide review is ludicrous. Any sensible review should judge the music and a period instruments performance on its own terms. Telling us that he hates the recording just because it is on period instruments, is totally useless and tells us nothing we didn't already knew. Of course, I can sympathise with the poor guy: a Helter Skelter performance of a composer who pulls all the plugs on special effects, involving a 19th century Viennese grand piano and, above all, period winds - clarinet, oboe, flute and natural horn - can be too much for the faint hearted. :o ;D But it is exactly what this music needs: it is designed to show off and sound daring. I don't know if I could endure the endless cascades of arpeggios otherwise - I feel any performance on "modern" instruments is bound to be deadly boring.
I particularly like the Viennese piano grand by Jacob Bertsche, which looks like this instrument of two years before:

(http://www.fortepiano.at/media/gallery04/01.jpg) (http://www.fortepiano.at/media/gallery04/08.jpg)

Musically, Hummel's virtuosism mixed in with intimate Biedemeier style preciousness sounds close to Mendelssohn's piano concertos and preminiscent of Chopin's concertos and Liszt. Schubert's flashy cousin, so to speak... ;D I wouldn't be in the mood for this every day but when I will, this performance does the trick giving the music the authenticity and the (rustic) flair it thrives on.

Q

Thanks for the review Que, you have me interested in hearing that orchestration of Hummel's.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 11, 2011, 01:08:05 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on May 06, 2009, 05:31:38 AM
I transpose a message I've just written in another thread, concerning - naturally - a classical composer.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/88/455788.jpg)

It's interesting that you mention this CD, Traverso. It's the only CD I own of Brunetti's music, and I would like to know more of it before trying to describe the style of the composer. But specifically about these few string quartets I can say that it is some of the most intriguing chamber music of the classical period. Perhaps it is the use of listening to the Viennese composers of the time, but even compared with Boccherini's works these are very special; I would even say that they are very strange. Their emotional approach is a light one, but the music in itself is quite twisted: very strange textures, unexpected modulations, irregular subjects, and lots of other surprises.

If I had to describe these works, I'd say they are like a piranha. Their size is deceiving. And when gathered in groups, they can create a very powerful force. According to Wikipedia, he wrote a considerable amount of chamber music (44 string quartets, 66 string quintets, and so on). If most of his music had at least the level presented by this CD, we would be in front of a very sadly forgotten composer; and considering that Brunetti was active in Spain at the same time Boccherini was, they both could offer a most distinguished counterpoint to the Haydn-Mozart Austrian chamber music writing of this period.

This is the post that got me into Brunetti. I love how Gabriel writes of the quartets in the above quote.

What a great find this composer is. I'm very intrigued over this seemlingly isolated composer.  ;D

I also enjoy the disk of his symphonies with the Concerto Koln:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MsxphO9lL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

What a great thread full of great discoveries.

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2011, 04:26:34 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 11, 2011, 01:08:05 PM
This is the post that got me into Brunetti. I love how Gabriel writes of the quartets in the above quote.

What a great find this composer is. I'm very intrigued over this seemlingly isolated composer.  ;D

I also enjoy the disk of his symphonies with the Concerto Koln:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MsxphO9lL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

What a great thread full of great discoveries.
8)

:)   Yes, this is the home of the quiet adventurers. The most you can say about our music is that it is "not new, but new to you!".  I am pleased that some people come here who can write well too. My intention in starting this thread was to have a 2 way street;  I would share what I have been learning about music history, and in return people would turn me on to new composers and disks to listen to. It has worked out smashingly well so far, at least for me!   :)

8)




----------------
Now playing:
Klaus Storck (Arpeggione) & Alfons Kontarsky (Hammerflügel) - D 821 Sonata in a for Arpeggione & Pianoforte 3rd mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2011, 04:36:24 PM
Leo,
On the topic of Brunetti, I forgot to remind about this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Brunettibassooncover-1.jpg)

Several years ago I started a thread on what was, at the time, my favorite genre. It still ranks very high in my estimation. That is the string trio or quartet fronted by a wind instrument playing the primo. This disk is a fine example of that, with my favorite instrument, the bassoon, taking the lead. Brunetti was in the same league as Krommer and Danzi in this ball park. Just goes to show that there are still discoveries to be made out there even after several years of ferreting out new works to listen to. If one sees Brunetti mentioned at all, it certainly isn't with bassoon quartets! :)

8)


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Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 165 1 Op 12 #1 Sonata #01 in D for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 11, 2011, 05:14:42 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 11, 2011, 04:36:24 PM
Leo,
Several years ago I started a thread on what was, at the time, my favorite genre. It still ranks very high in my estimation. That is the string trio or quartet fronted by a wind instrument playing the primo. This disk is a fine example of that, with my favorite instrument, the bassoon, taking the lead. Brunetti was in the same league as Krommer and Danzi in this ball park. Just goes to show that there are still discoveries to be made out there even after several years of ferreting out new works to listen to. If one sees Brunetti mentioned at all, it certainly isn't with bassoon quartets! :)
\

Thanks for the Brunnetti recommend and the thoughts Gurn, I especially like how you say this thread is the land of the "quiet adventurer"  :D

I too am a huge fan of the string trio or quartet fronted by a wind instrument combo, since first discovering the Mozart Clarinet Quintet years ago (late 80s). Because of Mozart's clarinet chamber music and concerto, I fell in love with the clarinet.

The past few years, thanks to the efforts from those on this thread and with research on my own, I have finally discovered the clarinet chamber music of other composers from the classical and beyond! I have searched high and low, and this thread helped me arrive there faster.  ;D

Here are my favorite concerti and chamber music with clarinet as the primo instrument. I'm sure these are not new for this thread  ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517QcLFiIBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(this Gossec symphony disk includes a clarinet concerto by Johann Stamitz)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WSFZ89V9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/July02/Hoffmeister_Clarinet_quartets.jpg)

(http://cdn.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/999141-2.gif)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51L7ECMiZ8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OtBhBKIZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And I understand these are just the tip of the iceburg!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2011, 05:41:18 PM
Leo,
Nice to see someone who likes this sort of work.  Last week, for the second time in as many months, I read something (in a general music history) about the bassoon to the effect that it is such a weak instrument that it can't hold its own other than as a continuo instrument, and that no one has even written anything for it!!! :o  Overlooking, or marginalizing at best, an entire genre!   >:(   

And the clarinet, of course, actually fares the best against the strings because it just has more body, shall we say? And it is more reliable in a pinch, I reckon. Some of the most beautiful music has been written for it. I'm glad you found Crusell, he is often overlooked. He is a specialist for the instrument and a fine one. I toss you a recommendation here since it contains one of my favorite pieces:

[asin]B00000144N[/asin]

the Weber Grand Duo Concertante. And a very nice Clarinet Quintet too!  One can do some more hunting and turn up some PI versions too, they are out there. Weber was a very good composer, always interesting, and surprisingly influential (particularly in his operas). Highly recommended to go along with what you have now. Speaking of which, I know some Gossec, but not that one. Looks interesting. I'll dig. :)  And Backofen is like totally new to me, so that will be worth some hunting too. Especially with Klöcker playing, one can scarcely go wrong. The balance of those disks I am very familiar with, and not a bad one there. Excellent beginnings for exploring Classical Clarinet. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 165 3 Op 12 #3 Sonata #03 in Eb for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro con spirito
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2011, 06:52:06 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 11, 2011, 05:41:18 PM
............... Speaking of which, I know some Gossec, but not that one. Looks interesting. I'll dig. :)  And Backofen is like totally new to me, so that will be worth some hunting too. Especially with Klöcker playing, one can scarcely go wrong. The balance of those disks I am very familiar with, and not a bad one there. Excellent beginnings for exploring Classical Clarinet. :)


Leo & Gurn - I'd have to join in and state that the clarinet is probably my favorite wind instrument fronting in chamber works (and orchestral ones w/ a wind being up front as the solo instrument).  Obviously, Klöcker figures prominently in my collection (can't even guess 'how many' discs I own w/ him - would need to check my database).  But, I do not own the recording w/ Gossec (just have 1 CD his works - symphonies), but have all of the others, and most in the same performances!

And I must further support Gurn concerning that bassoon disc of Brunetti's compositions for that instrument - like the bassoon also and am looking for more output w/ this neglected wind!   :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2011, 06:58:35 AM
Quote from: Que on April 11, 2011, 08:40:06 AM

Hi David, the Am record Guide review is ludicrous. Any sensible review should judge the music and a period instruments performance on its own terms. Telling us that he hates the recording just because it is on period instruments, is totally useless and tells us nothing we didn't already knew. Of course, I can sympathise with the poor guy: a Helter Skelter performance of a composer who pulls all the plugs on special effects, involving a 19th century Viennese grand piano and, above all, period winds - clarinet, oboe, flute and natural horn - can be too much for the faint hearted. :o ;D But it is exactly what this music needs: it is designed to show off and sound daring. I don't know if I could endure the endless cascades of arpeggios otherwise - I feel any performance on "modern" instruments is bound to be deadly boring.
I particularly like the Viennese piano grand by Jacob Bertsche, which looks like this instrument of two years before...................

Q - thanks for the comments in your previous post (partially quoted above) and the extra pictures of the piano - excellent!  And I agree on that review from the American Record Guide - grudgingly I believe he did like the recording; in fact, his prissy comments actually swayed me to a purchase - basically, he probably should not have been given the recording to review in the first place!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 12, 2011, 12:41:06 PM
Quote from: GurnLeo,
Nice to see someone who likes this sort of work.  Last week, for the second time in as many months, I read something (in a general music history) about the bassoon to the effect that it is such a weak instrument that it can't hold its own other than as a continuo instrument, and that no one has even written anything for it!!!   Overlooking, or marginalizing at best, an entire genre!     

And the clarinet, of course, actually fares the best against the strings because it just has more body, shall we say? And it is more reliable in a pinch, I reckon. Some of the most beautiful music has been written for it. I'm glad you found Crusell, he is often overlooked. He is a specialist for the instrument and a fine one. I toss you a recommendation here since it contains one of my favorite pieces...

Thanks Gurn! I am going to check out Weber, and I already have that Weber Clarinet Quintet as part of a recording with the Clarinet Quintet by Robert Fuchs (Brahms contemperary). I will listen to that very soon  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 12, 2011, 12:42:06 PM
I am going through the past posts on this thread, getting ideas for study and recommends, and came across this post by Gurn:

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 03, 2009, 06:09:34 PM
Info on Albrechtsberger is... uncommon, it's true. What i have picked up has mainly been from reading about others, in whose lives he figured, mostly as a teacher of counterpoint. This is what his reputation was based on. Some of his more famous students were Beethoven, Hummel and Reicha.

(from Wiki and other websites)

Johann Georg Albrechtsberger (Composer)

Born: February 3, 1736 - Kloserneuburg, near Vienna, Austria
Died: March 7, 1809 - Vienna, Austria

Johann Georg Albrechtsberger was an Austrian musician, master of musical theory, and teacher of Hummel and Beethoven.

Life
Johann Georg Albrechtsberger began his musical career at the early age of seven as a choir-boy with the Augustinians in Klosterneuburg, , where he also studied the organ and composition. The pastor of St. Martin's, Klosterneuburg, observing the boy's talent and his remarkable industry, and being himself an excellent musician, gave him the first lessons in thoroughbass, and even had a little organ built for him. Young Albrechtsberger's ambition was so great that he did not even rest on Sundays and holidays. To complete his scientific and musical studies he repaired to the Benedictine Abbey at Melk (from 1749). Here his beautiful soprano voice attracted the attention of the future Emperor Leopold, who on one occasion expressed his high appreciation and presented the boy with a ducat. The library at Melk gave him the opportunity to study the works of Antonio Caldara, Johann Joseph Fux, Giovanni Battista Pergolesi, Georg Frideric Handel, Graun etc. He also studied philosophy at a Benedictine (Jesuit) seminary in Vienna (1754) and became one of the most learned and skillful contrapuntists of his age. His his profound knowledge of music gave him a high rank among theorists.

Having completed his studies, J.G. Albrechtsberger became organist at the Melk cathedral, where he remained for twelve years. He next had charge of the choir and organist at Raab in Hungary (1755), and at Mariatfel (1757), and back in Melk (1759-1765). Subsequently, in 1765, he went to Vienna having been named choir-director of the church of the Carmelites. Here he took lessons from the court organist, Mann, who was highly esteemed at that time. Mann became his friend, as did also Joseph and Michael Haydn, Gassmann, and other excellent musicians. In 1772 he obtained the position of second court organist (and in 1792 promoted to First organist) in Vienna, which Emperor Joseph had promised him years before. This position he held for twenty years. He became Assistant Kapellmeister at St. Stephen's Cathedral in 1791, where he was promoted to Kapellmeister in 1793.

J.G. Albrechtsberger's fame as a theorist attracted to him in the Austrian capital a large number of pupils, some of whom afterwards became eminent musicians. Among them were Johann Nepomuk Hummel, Joseph Eybler, Ignaz Moscheles, Josef Weigl (1766-1846), Ludwig von Beethoven and others. Beethoven had arrived in Vienna in 1792 to study with Haydn but quickly became infuriated when his work was not being given attention or corrected. Haydn recommended (This isn't true, Beethoven went off in secret to study and didn't tell Haydn GB) his friend Albrechtsberger, with whom Beethoven then studied harmony and counterpoint (1794-1795). On completion of his studies, the young student noted, "Patience, diligence, persistence, and sincerity will lead to success," which reflects upon Albrechtsberger's own compositional philosophies. The Swedish Academy of Music at Stockholm made him an honorary member in 1798. J.G. Albrechtsberger died in Vienna on March 7, 1809, less than three months before Josef Haydn. His grave is in St. Marx cemetery. His status in musical history rests mainly on his theoretical writings and his knowledge of counterpoint.

Works
Johann Georg Albrechtsberger will probably always hold a high rank among musical scientists, his treatise on composition especially will ever remain a work of importance by reason of its lucidity and minuteness of detail. He composed nearly 300 church works, around 300 keyboard works (mainly organ) and over 240 various other works. His many church compositions, on the other hand, while technically correct and ornate, are dry, and betray the theorist. Of his compositions, only 27 are printed; of the unpublished remainder, the larger part is preserved in the library of the Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde at Vienna. His published compositions consist of preludes, fugues and sonatas for the piano and organ, string quartets, etc.. His compositional style derives from Johann Joseph Fux's counterpoint, who was Kapellmeister at St. Stephen's Cathedral 1713-1741, a position that Albrechtsberger would hold 52 years later. Around 1765, Albrechtsberger wrote at least seven concerti for Jew's harp and strings (three survive in the Hungarian National Library in Budapest). They are pleasant, well written works in the galant style. One of his most notable works is his concerto for Alto Trombone and Orchestra in Bb Major. As the trombone has few works dating back to the classical period, his concerto is often highlighted by the trombone community.

Probably the most valuable service he rendered to music was in his theoretical works. As a highly influential composition teacher, he published in 1790 at Leipzig his famous Treatise on composition, a clearly written and accessible work in which he formulated 18th-century theory, of which a third edition appeared in 1821. His complete works on thoroughbass, harmony and composition were published, in three volumes, by his pupil, Ignaz Von Seyfried (1776-1841) in 1826. An English version of this was published by Novello in 1855.

I am now interested in listening to this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NrQqYTGyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any new thoughts on this recording?

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2011, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 12, 2011, 12:42:06 PM
I am going through the past posts on this thread, getting ideas for study and recommends, and came across this post by Gurn:

I am now interested in listening to this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NrQqYTGyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any new thoughts on this recording?

I was never able to run across that recording, Leo, although some folks here did and reported back positively. I have a nice disk on Hungaroton (I'll link it when I get home) of duos by Albrechtsberger and Haydn that you might like. Meanwhile, I will hunt around for that SQ disk some more. It still intrigues me. :)

8)

Edit: This is the disk I mean. It is at the Amazon Marketplace (http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn-Johann-Georg-Anton/dp/B00006BCEW/ref=sr_1_18?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1302641812&sr=1-18):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31DbqV7joYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2011, 01:58:27 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 12, 2011, 12:42:06 PM
I am going through the past posts on this thread, getting ideas for study and recommends, and came across this post by Gurn:

I am now interested in listening to this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NrQqYTGyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any new thoughts on this recording?

Leo - back on page 51 or so of this thread (and after posts) discussed the disc mentioned above HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg384770/topicseen.html#msg384770) - I own this disc and enjoy but the reviews have been mixed (as follow-up posts mentioned) - there is just not much available on this THEN well-know composer/teacher, so not much choice if you want to take a chance?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 12, 2011, 04:45:56 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 12, 2011, 01:58:27 PM
Leo - back on page 51 or so of this thread (and after posts) discussed the disc mentioned above HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg384770/topicseen.html#msg384770) - I own this disc and enjoy but the reviews have been mixed (as follow-up posts mentioned) - there is just not much available on this THEN well-know composer/teacher, so not much choice if you want to take a chance?  Dave  :)

Thank you for the link to that part of the conversation!

8)

By the way, another composer on my mind and one who is completely new to me is Friedrich Ernst Fesca, such as this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vG74OVPtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any thoughts on this composer?

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 12, 2011, 04:47:53 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 12, 2011, 12:56:11 PM
I was never able to run across that recording, Leo, although some folks here did and reported back positively. I have a nice disk on Hungaroton (I'll link it when I get home) of duos by Albrechtsberger and Haydn that you might like. Meanwhile, I will hunt around for that SQ disk some more. It still intrigues me. :)

8)

Edit: This is the disk I mean. It is at the Amazon Marketplace (http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn-Johann-Georg-Anton/dp/B00006BCEW/ref=sr_1_18?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1302641812&sr=1-18):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31DbqV7joYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Gurn, thank you for the new recommend. My wish list is so full! I am getting married this year, and perhaps I could put these on my Amazon wedding registry...ha ha!  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2011, 05:19:00 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 12, 2011, 04:45:56 PM
Thank you for the link to that part of the conversation!

8)

By the way, another composer on my mind and one who is completely new to me is Friedrich Ernst Fesca, such as this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vG74OVPtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any thoughts on this composer?


Oh dear, this is so difficult. I would not want to be the one that makes you have to postpone the wedding due to having to rebuild the nest-egg...  :D

I find Friedrich Ernst to be a highly entertaining composer, possibly even more-so than his son, Alex:

[asin]B00005NY41[/asin]

Rather more like Mendelssohn than Beethoven, you might say. Which is no slap coming from me; I love Mendelssohn. :)  Anyway, there again, you would very likely be delighted with that disk (which is the one I have, not the one with symphony #1 and the 3 overtures). And Alex' septets are perfectly in the mold of Biedermeier hausmusik (if the house is one of accomplished musicians, as many of them were).

You must stop roaming through Amazon, Leo. You're dangerous to yourself!   :D

8)


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Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 294 Op 24 Sonata #05 in F for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 13, 2011, 01:59:34 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 12, 2011, 05:19:00 PM

Oh dear, this is so difficult. I would not want to be the one that makes you have to postpone the wedding due to having to rebuild the nest-egg...  :D

I find Friedrich Ernst to be a highly entertaining composer, possibly even more-so than his son, Alex:

[asin]B00005NY41[/asin]

Rather more like Mendelssohn than Beethoven, you might say. Which is no slap coming from me; I love Mendelssohn. :)  Anyway, there again, you would very likely be delighted with that disk (which is the one I have, not the one with symphony #1 and the 3 overtures). And Alex' septets are perfectly in the mold of Biedermeier hausmusik (if the house is one of accomplished musicians, as many of them were).

You must stop roaming through Amazon, Leo. You're dangerous to yourself!   :D

8)


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Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 294 Op 24 Sonata #05 in F for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro

Ha ha! Indeed! My wife-to-be has to put up with my numerous recordings as it is! It's time to get that nest-egg ready  ;D


Interesting that Friedrich's son is a composer as well! Thanks for the heads up on the septets release above  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 13, 2011, 05:31:49 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 12, 2011, 04:45:56 PM

By the way, another composer on my mind and one who is completely new to me is Friedrich Ernst Fesca, such as this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vG74OVPtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516lAyk5icL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Any thoughts on this composer?

Well, I do enjoy that disc of Friedrich Fesca; also own a CD of his Flute Quartets (inserted above), if you would like some chamber works?

Also agree w/ Gurn's recommendations of his son's, Alexander Fesca, Septets - another tragic composer who died young (1820-1849) from 'lung disease' according to the Wiki Article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fesca); I would suspect the scourge of that century, i.e. TB (interesting, Chopin died the same year from the same disease!) -  :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 13, 2011, 09:40:10 AM
I really, really, really like the Beethoven Hummel PTs recording I bought (in particular the Op 1 #3 PT is by far the most intense performance I've heard)

[asin]B000U7V9HQ[/asin]

So I wanted to know of any other classical era PI recordings by those performers: Staier, Sepec, Queyras that I should check out.  Any recs?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2011, 10:00:08 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 13, 2011, 09:40:10 AM
I really, really, really like the Beethoven Hummel PTs recording I bought (in particular the Op 1 #3 PT is by far the most intense performance I've heard)

[asin]B000U7V9HQ[/asin]

So I wanted to know of any other classical era PI recordings by those performers: Staier, Sepec, Queyras that I should check out.  Any recs?

The only one that I know about is the Beethoven sonatas by Staier and Sepec. It is this one here:

[asin]B000G7EYK4[/asin] and it's very nice indeed. His 2 minor key sonatas and a set of variations. AFAIK, that pretty well covers it, more's the pity.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 13, 2011, 11:37:06 AM
Wow seriously that's it... dang! they must focus on baroque era works then.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2011, 11:51:22 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 13, 2011, 11:37:06 AM
Wow seriously that's it... dang! they must focus on baroque era works then.

No, they only started playing together just on and off a few years ago. The violin sonatas, and then with Queyras for the trios. I think Beethoven must have been just one of those things they wanted to do because they liked the music, rather than their being a full-time band. Pity, they are darned good together! I haven't seen any Baroque by them at all.... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2011, 03:58:58 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 13, 2011, 10:00:08 AM
The only one that I know about is the Beethoven sonatas by Staier and Sepec.

Thanks, I bought it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2011, 04:01:15 PM
Is there only one PI recording of Hummel's trumpet concerto??

[asin]B000001WSY[/asin]

I can't really find anything.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2011, 04:26:34 PM
No, although that's a good one (I want it myself).

There is this one which I have and enjoy:

[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

and this one which I would like to have and probably will by the time you read this:

[asin]B000006MB8[/asin]


I wouldn't be surprised if there were others, but I don't know about them yet.... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 550 Op 96 Sonata #10 in G for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2011, 04:34:48 PM
That's Haydn, I asked for Hummel. ;D  But I'll remember that when I'm shopping for Haydn. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2011, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 14, 2011, 04:34:48 PM
That's Haydn, I asked for Hummel. ;D  But I'll remember that when I'm shopping for Haydn. :)

Screw Hummel, go with Haydn... ;D    Yeah, I have looked at that disk for the Haydn concerto several times and forgot what else was on it.    :-[

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 550 Op 96 Sonata #10 in G for Piano & Violin 4th mvmt - Poco allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 14, 2011, 04:44:56 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 14, 2011, 04:01:15 PM
Is there only one PI recording of Hummel's trumpet concerto??

[asin]B000001WSY[/asin]

I can't really find anything.

Check out the Old Musical Instrument Thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.120.html) - own and enjoy this recording - pick up as soon as you can!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2011, 05:00:09 PM
Alright Dave, your post on the other thread has convinced me.  And I found it as a mere $9 download on amazon so I'll buy it on my next splurge. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 15, 2011, 06:25:44 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 14, 2011, 04:39:26 PM
Screw Hummel, go with Haydn... ;D    Yeah, I have looked at that disk for the Haydn concerto several times and forgot what else was on it.    :-[

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 550 Op 96 Sonata #10 in G for Piano & Violin 4th mvmt - Poco allegretto

Man, I sure love Haydn's Trumpet Concerto but I never hear an PI recording! I will have to correct that in the future! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 06:41:21 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 15, 2011, 06:25:44 AM
Man, I sure love Haydn's Trumpet Concerto but I never hear an PI recording! I will have to correct that in the future! ;)

Leo, the Pinnock version is really a good choice; the trumpet version alone justifies the disk, while if you want to hear a good harpsichord version of Hob XVIII:11, this is as good as Koopman, maybe even a tad better. It's a good disk and under $10 in the Marketplace. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jared on April 15, 2011, 06:53:34 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 15, 2011, 06:41:21 AM
Leo, the Pinnock version is really a good choice; the trumpet version alone justifies the disk, while if you want to hear a good harpsichord version of Hob XVIII:11, this is as good as Koopman, maybe even a tad better. It's a good disk and under $10 in the Marketplace. :)

8)

quite right too...

I think this might be the disk, to which you refer...

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/TrumpetPinnock.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 07:57:38 AM
Quote from: Jared on April 15, 2011, 06:53:34 AM
quite right too...

I think this might be the disk, to which you refer...

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/TrumpetPinnock.jpg)

Yep, that's the one. I ordered that Hogwood disk last night so I can compare them next week, but reviews comparing them give the nod to the Pinnock, at least the trumpet part. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2011, 08:29:36 AM
Actually we were talking about the Hummel concerto, Gurn was quick to derail it onto Haydn. ::) :D

I looked at it, but not certain if it uses a keyed trumpet, and according to the description uses a rare late revision to the concerto.  I don't know about you Leon, but I'm going with sonic Dave's rec.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 09:35:11 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 15, 2011, 08:36:38 AM
I think it was originally written in E and only later transposed to Eb - but my real reason was because this disc included the mandolin work.

All true. But hf was looking for a PI work, and LMP/Shelley are not that, sad to say. Doesn't make them less very good, but they didn't fit the search requisite... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 10:51:38 AM
OK, Hummelfan, here is the one to spend your hard earned on:

[asin]B00005NUPC[/asin]

Steele-Perkins is, despite the hyphenated name, a bitchin' good trumpeter. No need to mention that King's Consort is a fine band whether you like King or not. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 10:57:58 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 15, 2011, 10:53:51 AM
I have that one already :)  A very good recording.

So, I may go for the Shelley one - in order to 1) have another recording by a different kind of band, and 2) to get the mandolin work.

:D

Seems like good reasoning to me! I have that mandolin work somewhere ( :-\ ) and distinctly remember enjoying it a lot. I will have to dig and see now where I put it. IIRC, it was a Chandos disk too, but I don't remember having that one you pictured. I wonder if senility has anything to do with this...  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jared on April 15, 2011, 11:41:33 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 15, 2011, 07:57:38 AM
Yep, that's the one. I ordered that Hogwood disk last night so I can compare them next week, but reviews comparing them give the nod to the Pinnock, at least the trumpet part. :)

8)

It's a lovely disk Gurn, and gets a regular play at chez Butcher.. I think the Keyboard Concerto is a particular treat...  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jared on April 15, 2011, 11:52:02 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 15, 2011, 08:23:03 AM
I know you guys are talking about the Haydn Trumpet Concerto, but I am looking at the Hummel one paired with the Mandolin Concerto and was thnking of this

[asin]B00005M0JP[/asin]

And thoughts?

Leon: It's quite simple... you cannot go wrong with ANY of the Howard Shelley/ Hummel disks on Chandos... they are uniformly of a very high quality. He and Chandos have spent a great deal of time and effort researching, resurrecting and promoting the Orchestral music of of JNH, and it would be well worth your time exploring, my friend.. ..  :)

Aside No 1: What Shelley did for Hummel's Orchestral music, the late, great Richard Hickox did for Hummel's Masses and Sacred Choral Works... this series of three are an absolute MUST:

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Late%20Classical/MassHickox1.jpg)

Aside No 2: Howard Shelley's disk of the Mendelssohn Piano Concertos with the London Mozart Players, also on Chandos (and no, I'm not a Chandos rep!) is also a great recording, and, played with smaller forces on Original instruments, makes a pleasing accompaniment to more Romantic versions...

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: Jared on April 15, 2011, 11:41:33 AM
It's a lovely disk Gurn, and gets a regular play at chez Butcher.. I think the Keyboard Concerto is a particular treat...  8)

Yes, Pinnock does a bangup job with that concerto. I am a huge fortepiano fan, and since that work was composed in 1781, I always felt it should be a fortepiano work. But in reading about it, I discovered that Haydn didn't even have a fortepiano at the time (although I'm sure he was exposed to them in Vienna), and if he wrote it for Esterhazy that chances are it really was a harpsichord work. So that made me listen with new ears and now I rather like it either way (major turnabout for me!). Pity the oboe concerto is not by Haydn, or what i really mean is that he didn't write any oboe concerti. I am inordinately fond of the hautbois, as I am of Haydn... :)  But I listen to and enjoy it anyway.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jared on April 15, 2011, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 15, 2011, 11:55:11 AM
Yes, Pinnock does a bangup job with that concerto. I am a huge fortepiano fan, and since that work was composed in 1781, I always felt it should be a fortepiano work. But in reading about it, I discovered that Haydn didn't even have a fortepiano at the time (although I'm sure he was exposed to them in Vienna), and if he wrote it for Esterhazy that chances are it really was a harpsichord work.

That's interesting. I've never heard a Pianoforte version, and had always assumed it had been written for harpsichord... I can't imagine space would have been a problem for the Esterhazys... who has done a good fortepiano version? Malcolm Bilson?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: Jared on April 15, 2011, 12:10:27 PM
That's interesting. I've never heard a Pianoforte version, and had always assumed it had been written for harpsichord... I can't imagine space would have been a problem for the Esterhazys... who has done a good fortepiano version? Malcolm Bilson?

Oh, Brautigam leaps to mind right off. And Schornsheim too. #3, 4, & 11 have been  historically nearly always done on piano, and so it continues in the fortepiano age. Those 3 will appear together on disk. These are both highly commendable. :)

[asin]B002ED6VL8[/asin][asin]B0007OP1RG[/asin]

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: Jared on April 15, 2011, 12:10:27 PM
That's interesting. I've never heard a Pianoforte version, and had always assumed it had been written for harpsichord... I can't imagine space would have been a problem for the Esterhazys... who has done a good fortepiano version? Malcolm Bilson?

Oh, meant to say also; don't know if Bilson has done it or not, never run across it. I would buy it if he did, big fan of his. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 01:07:36 PM
oh, my bad! I totally forgot this little jewel too! The Haydn Year was good to the keyboard concerti; all 3 of these disks are from 2009. :)

[asin]B001CCHPL2[/asin]

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2011, 01:43:34 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 15, 2011, 12:56:57 PM
Oh, Brautigam leaps to mind right off. And Schornsheim too.

I thought that you don't like her playing. ???
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jared on April 15, 2011, 01:44:25 PM
^^ some great looking disks there Gurn... no two ways about it, they all look worthy of future inspection...

...but you really should see the size of my 'to be played' shelf...  :o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on April 15, 2011, 01:46:06 PM
Quote from: Jared on April 15, 2011, 01:44:25 PM
^^ some great looking disks there Gurn... no two ways about it, they all look worthy of future inspection...

...but you really should see the size of my 'to be played' shelf...  :o

Just one shelf?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jared on April 15, 2011, 01:49:53 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 15, 2011, 01:46:06 PM
Just one shelf?

well, when I say 'shelf', I kind of mean 'gravitational vortex'...  :D

it hasn't got any smaller than from the days when you were a nut-job..  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 02:54:16 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 15, 2011, 01:43:34 PM
I thought that you don't like her playing. ???

No, not at all. I think that comparatively with Brautigam, for example, she is more... mild-mannered, let's say. But that's just a difference in artistic approach, not a closed door on her by any means. In fact, I have not only invested in her concertos set, but her solo piano one too!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: Jared on April 15, 2011, 01:44:25 PM
^^ some great looking disks there Gurn... no two ways about it, they all look worthy of future inspection...

...but you really should see the size of my 'to be played' shelf...  :o

Believe me, I know what you mean. I have the nearly complete works of Shostakovich, essentially untouched. I guess I will save them for retirement!  :D

As for Haydn, especially PI Haydn; please, don't get me started!   ::)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2011, 05:10:23 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 15, 2011, 02:54:16 PM
No, not at all. I think that comparatively with Brautigam, for example, she is more... mild-mannered, let's say. But that's just a difference in artistic approach, not a closed door on her by any means. In fact, I have not only invested in her concertos set, but her solo piano one too!   :)

8)

Yeah I know you have the solo keyboard set, I was thinking of our discussion of it a year or two back.  Hmm... I'd like to listen to that set again...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2011, 05:15:13 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 15, 2011, 05:10:23 PM
Yeah I know you have the solo keyboard set, I was thinking of our discussion of it a year or two back.  Hmm... I'd like to listen to that set again...

Well, since Haydn wrote the huge majority of his keyboard sonatas specifically for ladies to play, I think there is a good deal of worth in relying on a lady for a glimpse into an authentic soundworld. Even though I like the force of masculine playing (Brautigam is the Richter of the Fortepiano, IMO), I've been leaning lately towards the opposite direction. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
BBC Philharmonic / Torchinsky   Kathryn Stott (Piano) - Kabelevsky Op 26 Suite for Small Orchestra 'The Comedians' pt 01 - Prologue: Allegro vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jared on April 16, 2011, 02:58:27 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 15, 2011, 02:56:32 PM
Believe me, I know what you mean. I have the nearly complete works of Shostakovich, essentially untouched. I guess I will save them for retirement!  :D

As for Haydn, especially PI Haydn; please, don't get me started!   ::)

8)

talking of the 'shelf', I've just added another one to it, courtesy of an incredible bargain from Great Uncle Ebay...  ;D

I've not read any reviews, however I don't want to say something as bland as 'well if its on the Hyperion label...'

so, do you have any views on this disk, Gurn?

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Late%20Classical/51msDHfzysL__SL500_AA300_.jpg)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 16, 2011, 06:44:05 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 15, 2011, 05:15:13 PM
Well, since Haydn wrote the huge majority of his keyboard sonatas specifically for ladies to play, I think there is a good deal of worth in relying on a lady for a glimpse into an authentic soundworld. Even though I like the force of masculine playing (Brautigam is the Richter of the Fortepiano, IMO), I've been leaning lately towards the opposite direction. :)

This is the Haydn sonata disk I just listened to the other day, Jenö Jandó is really good (I'm sure many of you have heard or have some recordings from the series on Naxos):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518QxYxOykL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have yet to hear a PI performance of the Haydn sonatas, but you convinced me to give the ladies a try  8)

It sure was good to hear these works again. I love Haydn's piano sonatas. The sonatas are so musically varied and exquisite in taste and feeling, and interesting in mood.

(I love the covers Naxos designed for this series too)

;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2011, 07:08:09 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 16, 2011, 06:44:05 AM
This is the Haydn sonata disk I just listened to the other day, Jenö Jandó is really good (I'm sure many of you have heard or have some recordings from the series on Naxos):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518QxYxOykL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have yet to hear a PI performance of the Haydn sonatas, but you convinced me to give the ladies a try  8)

It sure was good to hear these works again. I love Haydn's piano sonatas. The sonatas are so musically varied and exquisite in taste and feeling, and interesting in mood.

(I love the covers Naxos designed for this series too)

;)

Leo,
I haven't heard Jando's Haydn, but I've read several reviews which left me thinking that this may be his best effort with any composer. My problem, of course, is that I can't bear to listen to Classical music on a modern instrument unless there is no option. My bad. :-\

Here are a few ladies from my collection. I admit, I DO collect Haydn keyboard works despite the glaring lie I told recently about not collecting disks.  >:D

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Davidssoncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnOdiagacover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Hadjimarkosclavichordcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnSonatasRHeardcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Leach1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Odiaga is strictly fortepiano, and she is quite good. This is an obscure label and finding (and affording!) them is difficult. They show up in the Marketplace though, and if someone is offering a fair price, it is worth to pick one up just to hear her take.

Hadjimarkos is a clavichord player, and her choice of repertoire reflects that. This is a lovely disk, reissued on Zig-Zag at a reasonable price (I think I paid $12 for it new). If clavichord intrigues you, this is a disk to have.

Davidsson is a mix of fortepiano and clavichord. She is an excellent player, and if you want to hear some clavichord without investing in a disk full, then this is a nice start.

Rachel heard is Naxos' concession to fortepiano enthusiasts. And a very good one too. She is a very good player and you wouldn't feel at all badly starting out with this disk.

Joanna Leach plays a square piano, which is appropriate for late works from his English period. Her piano has a most interesting sound and she plays the hell out of it.

Finally, Schornsheim. She plays the complete works for keyboard. She uses the appropriate instrument for everything from the 1755 divertimentos for harpsichord right up to the big fortepiano works of the late years. Different harpsichords, clavichords and fortepianos make the entire thing a sort of tour de force for keyboard fans. There was a time when this box was being fairly given away (I paid $28 at BRO for 124 disks), but now the few boxes left are being sold for their true value, which is high. Still, if you find a used box being sold for a reasonable price, don't hesitate. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2011, 07:17:22 AM
I moved this one over from the Purchases Today thread so it would hang about for a few minutes. I haven't made it all the way through yet, so haven't reached the Weber that I bought it for. But the period replica clarinets sound wonderful, as well as the 1826 Collard & Collard (English action) pianoforte.

QuoteSo the other night I was looking for a version of Weber's Gran Duo that I could recommend in The Corner, and I ran across this disk, which I couldn't recommend because I hadn't ever heard of it before. But I was intrigued enough to buy it and it arrived today for a first listen. I am now holding out high hopes after reading the booklet that it will be the killer Grand Duo... :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ClarinetDuosFrontlarge.jpg)

Thanks to Leo for pushing me over that cliff. I was hunting for a nice recommendation for that clarinet work topic when I spotted this. But never having heard of it before, I could hardly say "oh, get this one". I know people do though... :D

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Colin Lawson (Clarinet / Neal da Costa (Pianoforte) - Danzi Sonata Concertante for Clarinet & Pianoforte 3rd mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 16, 2011, 08:44:56 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 16, 2011, 07:17:22 AM
I moved this one over from the Purchases Today thread so it would hang about for a few minutes. I haven't made it all the way through yet, so haven't reached the Weber that I bought it for. But the period replica clarinets sound wonderful, as well as the 1826 Collard & Collard (English action) pianoforte.

Thanks to Leo for pushing me over that cliff. I was hunting for a nice recommendation for that clarinet work topic when I spotted this. But never having heard of it before, I could hardly say "oh, get this one". I know people do though... :D

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Colin Lawson (Clarinet / Neal da Costa (Pianoforte) - Danzi Sonata Concertante for Clarinet & Pianoforte 3rd mvmt - Allegretto

First of all, thanks for the Haydn recommends! My heart is set on that Schornsheim sometime this year...wow...that is what I've been looking for!


And regarding your new purchase of Colin Lawson: thanks for mentioning this, as this looks like an intriguing release. Danzi, Burgmuller, and Loewe and Stadler too! Let us know what you think!'

At the risk of wandering around Amazon ( :-X)I also noticed this Lawson recording that looks fine:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v7ur%2B7DkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tNQJQ1TzL._SS400_.jpg)

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 16, 2011, 09:22:02 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 16, 2011, 07:08:09 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Davidssoncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnOdiagacover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Hadjimarkosclavichordcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnSonatasRHeardcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Leach1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Nice list, Gurn. I would add these two recommendations (Brautigam is self-recommended):

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h4LbxU0vL._SS450_.jpg)

3-CD set. Great performances by Staier playing on two copies after Anton Walter (c. 1790 & 1792). Its price is almost irresistible on Amazon .

[asin]B00000203M[/asin]

Beautiful disc by Richard Burnett who plays a Viennese fortepiano by Michael Rosenberger, c.1798 (Sonatas No. 35 and 41) and an English pianoforte by John Broadwood and Son, 1801 (Sonatas No. 60 and 61).

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2011, 10:04:30 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 16, 2011, 09:22:02 AM
Nice list, Gurn. I would add these two recommendations (Brautigam is self-recommended):

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h4LbxU0vL._SS450_.jpg)

3-CD set. Great performances by Staier playing on two copies after Anton Walter (c. 1790 & 1792). Its price is almost irresistible on Amazon .

[asin]B00000203M[/asin]

Beautiful disc by Richard Burnett who plays a Viennese fortepiano by Michael Rosenberger, c.1798 (Sonatas No. 35 and 41) and an English pianoforte by John Broadwood and Son, 1801 (Sonatas No. 60 and 61).

Antoine,
Yes, both of those are fine disks, and highly recommendable (although my Staier is 3 separate disks, which I am very pleased to have that way). However, our discussion (which you unfortunately missed the beginning of) is specifically is about women interpreting Haydn now in view of the fact that the huge majority of these works were written specifically for women. To make up for your 2 male rec's, I am now forced to offer 2 more ladies in the interest of balance.  ;D

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Cerasicover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/413RpUvh4eL.jpg)

I can't imagine that I forgot Cerasi in my first post, put it off on Saturday AM sluggishness. I got her on a rec from Antoine, and delighted I did since that purchase was what got me started picking up odd & end obscure keyboard disks which has been a rewarding pastime for me. Cerasi is a superb player and really connects with these works.

Wataya, OTOH, I can't tell you about since that purchase was very recent and based on reading about her performances of some Bach on clavichord which were universally praised on a Bach site I ran across. 2 disk set, all clavichord. I can hardly wait to have it in hand!

I will also point out that the Brilliant set which is included in the Haydn Big Box is actually performed by a number of players, some of whom are ladies too. I have to do some serious listening before I can comment on those, although I have read some good reviews. :)

8)



----------------
Now playing:
Colin Lawson (Clarinet / Neal da Costa (Pianoforte) - Weber Op 48 Grand Duo Concertante in Eb for Clarinet & Pianoforte 1st mvmt - Allegro con fuoco
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2011, 10:14:09 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 16, 2011, 08:44:56 AM
First of all, thanks for the Haydn recommends! My heart is set on that Schornsheim sometime this year...wow...that is what I've been looking for!


And regarding your new purchase of Colin Lawson: thanks for mentioning this, as this looks like an intriguing release. Danzi, Burgmuller, and Loewe and Stadler too! Let us know what you think!'

At the risk of wandering around Amazon ( :-X)I also noticed this Lawson recording that looks fine:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v7ur%2B7DkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tNQJQ1TzL._SS400_.jpg)

;D

:D  Yes, I realized (and feared) the danger of turning you loose there, but what can I say?  Damn the torpedoes!  >:D

I am listening to the Grand Duo as I type, and enjoying it very much. The balance between the instruments on this disk is superb, probably equivalent to what a modern clarinet and modern concert grand would be, although I would want to be sitting several rows nearer the rear in that case. :D  The timbre marks the difference though. That beautiful wooden clarinet and wood frame English action grand piano are just more characterful. And the playing is as good as I had hoped for, so we are hitting on all cylinders now.

You're right, the coupling of the Burgmüller & Loewe with the Weber was what had attracted my attention to the disk at first, given that you had posted on both of those guys. And I am already a Danzi and Stadler fan, so really, other than the off-chance that it just plain sucked, it was an obvious good choice. if you decide to get it, you won't be disappointed. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Colin Lawson (Clarinet / Neal da Costa (Pianoforte) - Weber Op 48 Grand Duo Concertante in Eb for Clarinet & Pianoforte 1st mvmt - Allegro con fuoco
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 16, 2011, 10:28:34 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 16, 2011, 10:14:09 AM
:D  Yes, I realized (and feared) the danger of turning you loose there, but what can I say?  Damn the torpedoes!  >:D

I am listening to the Grand Duo as I type, and enjoying it very much. The balance between the instruments on this disk is superb, probably equivalent to what a modern clarinet and modern concert grand would be, although I would want to be sitting several rows nearer the rear in that case. :D  The timbre marks the difference though. That beautiful wooden clarinet and wood frame English action grand piano are just more characterful. And the playing is as good as I had hoped for, so we are hitting on all cylinders now.

You're right, the coupling of the Burgmüller & Loewe with the Weber was what had attracted my attention to the disk at first, given that you had posted on both of those guys. And I am already a Danzi and Stadler fan, so really, other than the off-chance that it just plain sucked, it was an obvious good choice. if you decide to get it, you won't be disappointed. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Colin Lawson (Clarinet / Neal da Costa (Pianoforte) - Weber Op 48 Grand Duo Concertante in Eb for Clarinet & Pianoforte 1st mvmt - Allegro con fuoco

Thanks great the Lawson is a very good recording of the Weber. It sounds like you can't go wrong with this disk  :) There must be nothing like the balance between these old, beautiful intruments together. I can just imagine.

This conversation has put me in a sonata mood this morning; with Chopin, Haydn, and again I pulled out this Dussek disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FQM4NFEGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And this is the disk that keeps on giving. The D Major, Op.32 (no.2) is quite amazing, and the slow movement is a wonder.

I also want to hear some of Carl Loewe's sonatas this morning.  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 16, 2011, 10:35:46 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 03, 2011, 10:36:30 AM
Wow! I'm loving what I hearing here! Sonatas by Carl Loewe (30 November 1796 – 20 April 1869), currently I'm listening to the Grosse Sonate in E Major (with a baritone and soprano in the second movement), from:

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl100/l158/l15807vbfty.jpg)

(I mentioned enjoying his D minor Symphony earlier in the thread...great stuff)

I want to repost about this disk of Carl Loewe sonatas. I've only listened to the Grosse Sonate in E Major, but I love it, and actually like concept of including voices, now that I've heard it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2011, 10:47:03 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 16, 2011, 10:35:46 AM
I want to repost about this disk of Carl Loewe sonatas. I've only listened to the Grosse Sonate in E Major, but I love it, and actually like concept of including voices, now that I've heard it.

Yes, that aroused by curiosity the first time you posted the contents. I don't understand the concept of a piano sonata accompanied by voices. How does it differ from a Lied? More movements? If so, are they all including singing or just one of them? :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Andreas Staier - Dussek Op 55 Fantasia & Fugue in f for Keyboard pt 1 - Fantasia
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 16, 2011, 11:15:29 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 16, 2011, 10:04:30 AM
Antoine,
Yes, both of those are fine disks, and highly recommendable (although my Staier is 3 separate disks, which I am very pleased to have that way). However, our discussion (which you unfortunately missed the beginning of) is specifically is about women interpreting Haydn now in view of the fact that the huge majority of these works were written specifically for women. To make up for your 2 male rec's, I am now forced to offer 2 more ladies in the interest of balance.  ;D

Damn! You mentioned all the HIP girls I know, just excepting the Brilliant Classics set.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2011, 11:34:51 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 16, 2011, 11:15:29 AM
Damn! You mentioned all the HIP girls I know, just excepting the Brilliant Classics set.  ;D

Yes, well me and HIP girls; match made in heaven   0:)

I did mention the Brilliant set, but failed to offer any comments on it. I would be interested to hear some. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Andreas Staier - Dussek Op 61 Elegy in f# on the Death of Prince Louis pt 1 - Lento patetico - Tempo agitato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 16, 2011, 12:04:05 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 16, 2011, 10:47:03 AM
Yes, that aroused by curiosity the first time you posted the contents. I don't understand the concept of a piano sonata accompanied by voices. How does it differ from a Lied? More movements? If so, are they all including singing or just one of them? :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Andreas Staier - Dussek Op 55 Fantasia & Fugue in f for Keyboard pt 1 - Fantasia


Gurn, in this sonata, there are four movements as a traditional sonata, except that the second movement is a lied, with a duet for bartitone and soprano (I'm not sure what the lyric is, as I haven't a copy of the liner notes for this CD) and quite beautiful. The effect reminds me of Mahler's use of songs in a symphony.

Now, for the early romantic, or later classical era, I'm usually more of a purest when it comes to instrumental works, but after hearing this sonata by Loewe, I am enchanted and the singing sounds natural for this sonata.

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 16, 2011, 12:42:25 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 16, 2011, 12:04:05 PM

Gurn, in this sonata, there are four movements as a traditional sonata, except that the second movement is a lied, with a duet for bartitone and soprano (I'm not sure what the lyric is, as I haven't a copy of the liner notes for this CD) and quite beautiful. The effect reminds me of Mahler's use of songs in a symphony.

Now, for the early romantic, or later classical era, I'm usually more of a purest when it comes to instrumental works, but after hearing this sonata by Loewe, I am enchanted and the singing sounds natural for this sonata.

8)
I'm very intrigued by your description, especially as I love his lied in the first place. I never really thought past them, so something to look forward to.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2011, 12:47:19 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 16, 2011, 12:04:05 PM

Gurn, in this sonata, there are four movements as a traditional sonata, except that the second movement is a lied, with a duet for bartitone and soprano (I'm not sure what the lyric is, as I haven't a copy of the liner notes for this CD) and quite beautiful. The effect reminds me of Mahler's use of songs in a symphony.

Now, for the early romantic, or later classical era, I'm usually more of a purest when it comes to instrumental works, but after hearing this sonata by Loewe, I am enchanted and the singing sounds natural for this sonata.

8)

OK, cool. That's how I imagined it to be but didn't have anything to go by as a model. Anything else would be a song cycle, wouldn't it?  :D

Guess I'll have to break down and have a go at him. This little clarinet pieces are my only Loewe so far. We'll see how Loewe I can go...  :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Andreas Staier - Dussek Op 61 Elegy in f# on the Death of Prince Louis pt 2 - Tempo vivace e con fuoco, quasi presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 17, 2011, 06:43:51 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 16, 2011, 12:42:25 PM
I'm very intrigued by your description, especially as I love his lied in the first place. I never really thought past them, so something to look forward to.

I think you will find this sonata enjoyable! I haven't heard his lieder as of yet, but it is now in my sights  ;)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 17, 2011, 06:46:24 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 16, 2011, 12:47:19 PM
see how Loewe I can go...  :)

:P

By the way, this sonata of Loewe's is also very reflective in tone, like Schubert, and I love that quality in Loewe's sonatas (at least the two I've heard so far).  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2011, 06:53:37 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 17, 2011, 06:46:24 AM
:P

By the way, this sonata of Loewe's is also very reflective in tone, like Schubert, and I love that quality in Loewe's sonatas (at least the two I've heard so far).  8)

Well, there came a time rather later in Loewe's career when Schubert discovery combined with Schubert nostalgia was all the rage in Vienna. It wouldn't be the slightest surprise if that was a strong influence on him artistically. Clearly I need to do some exploring. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Camerata Bern - Stamitz J Concerto in C for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro non molto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 17, 2011, 06:59:05 AM
(http://www.sa-cd.net/covers/4751.jpg)

Wow, wow, WOW. A great disk so far! And I'm really loving Czerny! Christoph Hammer gets a great sound on the fortepiano!

The Variationen über den beliebten Trauerwalzer für das Pianoforte Op. 12 absolutely sounds cosmic! I didn't know a fortepiano could show so much power  ;D

Here is what is on this recording:

--Variationen über den beliebten Trauerwalzer für das Pianoforte Op. 12
--Introduction, Variations Brillantes Et Rondeau De Chasse Op. 202
--Fantaisie Pour Le Pianoforte Op. 27
--Première Sonate As-Dur Op. 7


I'm listening to the Sonata now, and it is so wonderful, and at about 33 minutes, rather epic. So far, the first movement is reflective and meditative in atmosphere.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 17, 2011, 07:01:00 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 17, 2011, 06:53:37 AM
Well, there came a time rather later in Loewe's career when Schubert discovery combined with Schubert nostalgia was all the rage in Vienna. It wouldn't be the slightest surprise if that was a strong influence on him artistically. Clearly I need to do some exploring. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Camerata Bern - Stamitz J Concerto in C for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro non molto

That would be interesting to find out more about Loewe and the influence of Schubert! Excellant!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2011, 07:06:16 AM
Cool! I enjoy Czerny a lot; if I subscribed to the concept of "underrated" "overrated" etc, I would definitely put him in the underrated category. I have that monumental Sonata #1 too. Hard to squeeze 5 movements into less than 33 minutes, I suppose. Mine is by Anton Kuerti on ORC label, modern piano I'm afraid, but nonetheless very nice. I'll have to look for that disk of yours since the sonata is the only work in common on the 2. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Camerata Bern - Stamitz J Concerto in C for Violin 3rd mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 17, 2011, 07:59:57 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8539701.jpg)

This fortepiano set has been quite enjoyable too. The John Field Nocturnes are quite a revelation for me, and I love the choice of fortepianos for Field AND Chopin. What a sound!

The Corner has put me in a piano/fortepiano mood! Thanks!

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 17, 2011, 08:02:34 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 17, 2011, 07:06:16 AM
Cool! I enjoy Czerny a lot; if I subscribed to the concept of "underrated" "overrated" etc, I would definitely put him in the underrated category. I have that monumental Sonata #1 too. Hard to squeeze 5 movements into less than 33 minutes, I suppose. Mine is by Anton Kuerti on ORC label, modern piano I'm afraid, but nonetheless very nice. I'll have to look for that disk of yours since the sonata is the only work in common on the 2. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Camerata Bern - Stamitz J Concerto in C for Violin 3rd mvmt - Allegro

I recently read a review regarding a set of Czerny sonatas, on Musicweb, that also mentioned Schubert in regards to influences for Czerny, saying Czerny's sonatas had more Schubert influence than Beethoven. I tend to agree!

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2011, 08:04:21 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 17, 2011, 07:59:57 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8539701.jpg)

This fortepiano set has been quite enjoyable too. The John Field Nocturnes are quite a revelation for me, and I love the choice of fortepianos for Field AND Chopin. What a sound!

The Corner has put me in a piano/fortepiano mood! Thanks!

;D

That's a nice box, I just listened to the Field Nocturnes from it yesterday, in fact! I like Field's music, it is definitely forward-looking. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 17, 2011, 10:34:28 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on March 01, 2009, 02:10:54 PM
You probably own Jon Nakamtsu's recording for Harmonia Mundi, which, if a bit mechanical, is very good and is a quite reliable sample of this composer. However, the most devoted person towards Wölfl seems to be Laure Colladant, who has recorded many of the piano sonatas (played on a pianoforte). I have most of her recordings: opp. 6, 15, 28 and 33. Very good music indeed.

I have some of his other chamber works. Of particular interest: the piano trios op. 23 (led also by Colladant), and the string quartets op. 4 (Authentic Quartet in Hungaroton). They are music of their time: there are no great innovations, but the music is magnificently crafted and always very inventive.

An "unexpected highlight" of Wölfl's music are his two symphonies. There is, to my knowledge, just one recording, released by the Russian label Caro Mitis and very well played by the Pratum Integrum Orchestra. They are certainly more conventional works than Beethoven's or Eberl's works of the same period, but very interesting works nonetheless. (The Andante of the G minor symphony is a memorable movement: simple and effective, its ideas are quite Mozartian, but their treatment is Haydnesque). This CD includes a "bonus": a D minor "duo" (sonata) for piano and cello, op. 31, that crowns the disc. The repertoire for piano and cello of the classical period is particularly scarce, so it's a very welcome item in any collection, but its interest is more than anecdotic: this work is beautiful from the beginning to the end, with a dazzling finale showing unusually evident syncopations in its A subject that can't be explained but by heavy folkloric influence. A hidden treasure.

I'm quoting the above, from Gabriel, earlier in this thread, since I'm listening to this disk again this morning, and I'm really happy hearing Wolfl's symphonies. The orchestration is very interesting, and the spirit of the musc is always in forward motion. I love this disk.  :-*

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/87/cf/0009cf87_medium.jpeg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 17, 2011, 12:51:14 PM
Perhaps someone here also has this recording. Perhaps some of these composers have been mentioned here on the board already:

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/17/fd/000ffd17_medium.jpeg)

This disk is so amazing! Here is what is on it. A true treasure trove of 18th Century bliss from the Il Gardellino Ensemble :

Johann Gottlieb Janitsch (1708-c.1763)
--Quartet for oboe, violin, viola & continuo in G- ("O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden")
--Sonata da Camera for flute, oboe, violin & continuo in C, Op.4
--Sonate for traversflute, oboe, viola da gamba und continuo, in D "Echo"

Wiki: Janitsch was born in Schweidnitz, Silesia. He graduated from the University of Frankfurt an der Oder. He held various positions at the court of the Kingdom of Prussia, eventually becoming the personal musician of Frederick the Great. Janitsch died in the Prussian capital Berlin. Unfortunately, much of his music was lost during World War II. His manuscripts were stored at the Berlin Singakademie which was plundered during the war. Twenty-eight quadro sonatas have survived to modern times.

Christoph Schaffrath (1709-1763)
--Sonata for harpsichord obligato & viola da gamba in A

Wiki:He applied to be organist at the Sophienkirche in Dresden, but did not receive this position (Wilhelm Friedemann Bach was favoured for it). He did serve in the court of the Crown Prince Frederick (Frederick the Great) as a harpsichordist in the orchestra. From 1741, however, he was strictly the musician to the King's sister, Amalia.

As a composer Schaffrath limited himself to instrumental music including symphonies, keyboard pieces, sonatas and concertos. The harpsichord sonatas were almost all fast-slow-fast settings and the opening movements were most often scored in ABA form. Many of the keyboard compositions were simple two-part formulations with the left hand playing the lesser role. Schaffrath's music can be considered transitional pieces which are stylistically galant between the Baroque and the Classical, characteristically melodious and composed of short phrases using triplets and steady rhythms. He composed counterpoint well as found in his orchestral music but most of his music lacked an expressive fervor. The majority of his works may now be found in the state library in Berlin.

He composed many types of music. He was most notable for: overtures, symphonies, harpsichord concerti, quartets, trios, duets for a solo instrument and obbligato harpsichord, and sonatas for harpsichord.


Johann Gottlieb Graun (1698-1771)
--Trio for oboe, violin, cello & continuo in F

Wiki: Graun was born in Wahrenbrück. His brother Carl Heinrich was also a composer and singer. He studied with J.G. Pisendel in Dresden, and Giuseppe Tartini in Prague. Appointed Konzertmeister in Merseburg in 1726, he taught the violin to J.S. Bach's son Wilhelm Friedemann. He joined the court of the Prussian crown prince (who later became Frederick the Great) in 1732 and was made Konzertmeister of the Berlin Opera in 1740.

Graun was a highly respected violinist and composer, whose works continued to be performed after his death. "The concert-master, John Gottlib Graun, brother to the opera-composer, his admirers say, 'was one of the greatest performers on the violin of his time, and most assuredly, a composer of the first rank'," wrote Charles Burney. As a composer, he was primarily known for his instrumental works, though he also wrote vocal music and operas. He wrote a large number of violin concertos, trio sonatas, and solo sonatas for violin with cembalo, and also wrote two string quartets - among the earliest attempts in this genre. He also wrote many concertos for viola da gamba, which were very virtuosic, and were played by Ludwig Christian Hesse, considered the leading gambist of the time.

Despite the popularity of his works, Graun was not free from criticism. "In his concertos and church music... the length of each movement is more immoderate than Christian patience can endure," wrote Charles Burney.

       
These works really set an atmospheric mood. I can just imagine a rainy sky  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 18, 2011, 02:52:57 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 16, 2011, 09:22:02 AM
Nice list, Gurn. I would add these two recommendations (Brautigam is self-recommended):

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h4LbxU0vL._SS450_.jpg)

3-CD set. Great performances by Staier playing on two copies after Anton Walter (c. 1790 & 1792). Its price is almost irresistible on Amazon .

A friend loaned me this set so I can burn it into iTunes. Wow. This set of Haydn sonatas is simply astounding. I love the sound and the playing, with all the variations of tone and dynamics. This is the best Haydn sonata set I have yet heard in my limited experience with Haydn's sonatas. I always prefer the sound of a fortepiano if I can get it--so this is great!  :P ;D 8)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2011, 03:07:35 PM
Yes, that's a great set. I spent 2 years gathering these together:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/andreas3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/andreas2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/andreas1.jpg)

and the box set was released for peanuts about a week after I finally got the third one. No regrets though, despite paying about 5 times more... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 18, 2011, 03:12:55 PM
Staier plays on a walter?  Isn't that the fortepiano that sounds really close to a modern piano?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2011, 03:18:23 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 18, 2011, 03:12:55 PM
Staier plays on a walter?  Isn't that the fortepiano that sounds really close to a modern piano?

No, that would be a Graf. Walter was the #1 piano in 1780's Vienna. Haydn actually played a Schantz. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 18, 2011, 03:24:34 PM
Any recordings on the Schantz?  What does it sound like relative to the Walter?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2011, 03:42:43 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 18, 2011, 03:24:34 PM
Any recordings on the Schantz?  What does it sound like relative to the Walter?

There is at least this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnBilsonSchantzcover-1.jpg)

Bilson is wonderful as always.

To me the sound is similar. Haydn praised the action of the Schantz to high heaven. Given the venues they played (salons and such) the sound probably didn't make as much difference then as it would now. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 19, 2011, 09:20:53 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 18, 2011, 03:42:43 PM
There is at least this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnBilsonSchantzcover-1.jpg)

Bilson is wonderful as always.

To me the sound is similar. Haydn praised the action of the Schantz to high heaven. Given the venues they played (salons and such) the sound probably didn't make as much difference then as it would now. :)

8)

I'm interested in hearing this as well. In time  8)

I'm now listening to disk 2 of the Andrian Staier Haydn Sonata set. I've been listening on the way to work and back, and enjoying the hell out of it. What a perfect way to start out my day.

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2011, 09:30:40 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 19, 2011, 09:20:53 AM
I'm interested in hearing this as well. In time  8)

I'm now listening to disk 2 of the Andrian Staier Haydn Sonata set. I've been listening on the way to work and back, and enjoying the hell out of it. What a perfect way to start out my day.

;D

Yeah, it's hard to beat the combination of Staier and Haydn. One thing you are going to have to do if you start to listen to a lot of Haydn keyboard disks is learn to love Hob 17:6; I think that every player hits it at least one time. I must have 15 versions by now... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2011, 05:18:55 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 16, 2011, 11:34:51 AM
I did mention the Brilliant set, but failed to offer any comments on it. I would be interested to hear some. :)

Dütschler, Fukuda & Kojima. I prefer those two Japanese girls, sometimes Fukuda, sometimes Kojima; although Fukuda has the edge because she plays every sonata of her two CDs on that excellent Viennese anonymous (ca. 1785) from the collection of Edwin Beunk. Dütschler (a Bilson's student) is good, but I feel she is not that engaged to this music like Fukuda or Kojima. Anyway, I consider the Brilliant set as the best introduction to Haydn's piano sonatas on period instruments (or replicas). Additionally, van Oort and Hoogland are top-shelf recommendations.  :)   
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2011, 05:32:20 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2011, 05:18:55 PM
Dütschler, Fukuda & Kojima. I prefer those two Japanese girls, sometimes Fukuda, sometimes Kojima; although Fukuda has the edge because she plays every sonata of her two CDs on that excellent Viennese anonymous (ca. 1785) from the collection of Edwin Beunk. Dütschler (a Bilson's student) is good, but I feel she is not that engaged to this music like Fukuda or Kojima. Anyway, I consider the Brilliant set as the best introduction to Haydn's piano sonatas on period instruments (or replicas). Additionally, van Oort and Hoogland are top-shelf recommendations.  :)   

Interesting, thanks for that. I listened to 1 Hoogland disk and 1 Oort disk just to get a feel for the set, but in truth, I am so overloaded with Haydn keyboard disks (honest to god!) that I can't say anything about what I heard last year with those. Maybe I should start taking notes...   :)   I have Dütschler playing quite a lot of Mozart with Oort on that Mozart set. I think she is a very good player, but if she is unengaged in these recordings, that's unfortunate. :-\

I got this disk today, you might be interested in it from an historical perspective.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/28a581b0c8a0579bd0b5a110.jpg)

I am a fan of Haebler, I think her Mozart solo piano stuff is excellent. She also plays a fortepiano, I have some JC Bach concertos by here that I enjoy. But this is one of the first fortepiano disks ever made, it was recorded in 1968!! There is just 1 review there and the guy sounds a little nuts, but he is very positive about it anyway. So WTF, I bought  copy. Put ole Ingrid there with my young HIP-PI chicks. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Malcolm Bilson - Hob 16 39 Sonata in G for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2011, 05:45:33 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 19, 2011, 05:32:20 PM
I have Dütschler playing quite a lot of Mozart with Oort on that Mozart set. I think she is a very good player, but if she is unengaged in these recordings, that's unfortunate. :-\

I don't want to say anything against Dütschler because I consider her an excellent fortepianist and harpsichordist. I just recall the Japanese fortepianists a bit more engaded than Dütschler. I will probably listen to some of those CDs tonight, maybe Fukuda (CD10) will be "the one" and then Dütschler to compare and to decide if I have chaged my mind about this.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2011, 04:20:38 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2011, 05:45:33 PM
I don't want to say anything against Dütschler because I consider her an excellent fortepianist and harpsichordist. I just recall the Japanese fortepianists a bit more engaged than Dütschler. I will probably listen to some of those CD's tonight, maybe Fukuda (CD10) will be "the one" and then Dütschler to compare and to decide if I have changed my mind about this.  :)

Yeah, gotcha. These are works that really invite the player into the party. That was Haydn's way, he treated the performer way better than many composers. One shouldn't turn down that sort of invitation. :)  I reckon I will be taking those disks out of the Big Box for a good listening. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 21, 2011, 10:51:32 AM
I listened to Weber a bit in high school, than wrote him off as no Beethoven.  A long time passed.  I forgot about him.

Last night, I listened to his Variations for Trumpet and Orchestra.  Wow! what tricky trumpet playing.  Beautiful music, but sounds balls to the wall hard.  I could practically have an asthma attack just listening to it!  Anyway I wanted to say that I was wrong about Weber and will have to explore his music.

I know, I know early Romantic why am I posting on this thread?  Well I checked the first post and by the date range given I'm allowed to post about Weber. 0:)

So what works do you like of Weber?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on April 21, 2011, 11:25:05 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 21, 2011, 10:51:32 AM
I listened to Weber a bit in high school, than wrote him off as no Beethoven.  A long time passed.  I forgot about him.

Last night, I listened to his Variations for Trumpet and Orchestra.  Wow! what tricky trumpet playing.  Beautiful music, but sounds balls to the wall hard.  I could practically have an asthma attack just listening to it!  Anyway I wanted to say that I was wrong about Weber and will have to explore his music.

I know, I know early Romantic why am I posting on this thread?  Well I checked the first post and by the date range given I'm allowed to post about Weber. 0:)

So what works do you like of Weber?

The clarinet concerti are the most popular works.  I recently got Norrington's recording of his two symphonies but have not listened yet.

I think Weber's most significant work was his famous remark after hearing the 7th symphony the Beethoven was "ripe for the madhouse."
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2011, 11:43:09 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 21, 2011, 10:51:32 AM
I listened to Weber a bit in high school, than wrote him off as no Beethoven.  A long time passed.  I forgot about him.

Last night, I listened to his Variations for Trumpet and Orchestra.  Wow! what tricky trumpet playing.  Beautiful music, but sounds balls to the wall hard.  I could practically have an asthma attack just listening to it!  Anyway I wanted to say that I was wrong about Weber and will have to explore his music.

I know, I know early Romantic why am I posting on this thread?  Well I checked the first post and by the date range given I'm allowed to post about Weber. 0:)

So what works do you like of Weber?
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 21, 2011, 11:25:05 AM
The clarinet concerti are the most popular works.  I recently got Norrington's recording of his two symphonies but have not listened yet.

I think Weber's most significant work was his famous remark after hearing the 7th symphony the Beethoven was "ripe for the madhouse."

Yes, the clarinet concerti are among the best. And as I mentioned earlier, the Grand Duo for Clarinet and Pianoforte, and also the Clarinet Quintet are 2 very nice works. I have a huge folder full at home, I'll run down through there this evening. Personally, Wagner and I are both rather fond of his opera "Der Freischutz" (The Freeshooter) also. Dickie says it was a huge influence on him. I don't know... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2011, 11:54:07 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 21, 2011, 11:50:17 AM
- and regarding the extent of the influence of Der Freischutz on Wagner, I'd say not nearly enough.
:)

:D  Yes, it was probably the single most influential German work of the 19th century. Weber is not to be overlooked; IMO he is the Father of Romanticism.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 21, 2011, 12:39:43 PM
I'll probably skip the author... looks like I'll follow what Scarpia said and start with clarinet concertos.  I'll come back for chamber if I like those ccs.  Any PI recordings, or is MI better here anyway?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 21, 2011, 04:11:08 PM
Wow! This is such a great Requiem!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OidcH%2BfJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

8)

Other than this, I'm still exploring Haydn's sonatas on fortepiano, as well as listening to Beethoven contemporaries, such as Boely, Reicha, Cramer, etc  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2011, 04:25:01 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 21, 2011, 04:11:08 PM
Wow! This is such a great Requiem!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OidcH%2BfJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

8)

Other than this, I'm still exploring Haydn's sonatas on fortepiano, as well as listening to Beethoven contemporaries, such as Boely, Reicha, Cramer, etc  :)

Yes, Rejcha's is an unique voice. Despite that I don't seek out Requiem's,  I have a lot of his other music. He is that true rarity; a contemporary of Beethoven who deserves not to get lost in the backscatter. :)

I have a little bit of Cramer, he was quite admired by Beethoven himself both as a player and a composer. I enjoy his sonatas;

[asin]B0000VAWES[/asin]

8)



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Now playing:
Berlin Radio SO / Nagano   Domingo / Orgonosova / Schmidt - Bia 363 Op 85 Oratorio "Christus am Ölberge" (Christ on the Mount of Olives) pt 01 - Introduzione
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2011, 06:45:44 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 21, 2011, 04:25:01 PM
I have a little bit of Cramer, he was quite admired by Beethoven himself both as a player and a composer. I enjoy his sonatas;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sT8tZWh8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/EberlKhouri1/1065568128_BQ5iZ-O.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518OL19z8OL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Gurn - yes, I have that same Cramer 2-CD set w/ John Khouri; I went ahead and purchased several other recordings of his, including the two inserted above of Hummel & Eberl but on a different restored fortepiano; exchanged some e-mails w/ him and left a post in the Old Musical Instruments Thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.msg460795.html#msg460795), for those who may be interested - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2011, 07:11:23 AM
Merci, Luigi (c. 1695-1750) - Late Baroque/early classical music periods - just perusing the Tactus offerings at BRO (Berkshire Record Outlet) and saw the one below of the Flute Sonatas, Op. 1 - i.e. flute w/ b.c., which includes 2 instruments, a bassoon and a harpsichord (w/ Roberto Loreggian) - completely 'new' composer to me - he ended up in London for much of his adult life (last name listed at times in the liner notes as Mercy).  Flute playing is immaculate and the recording sound superb (and $5 from BRO)!

The other Tactus disc of this composer that intrigues me is added below (right), i.e. Bassoon Sonatas, Op. 3; same bassoon performer, i.e. Paolo Tognon, but on the Amazon listings, there are 5 players per work - just over $8 on the MPlace - might take a chance?   :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MerciTriosOp1/1261316656_WPDGnQs-O.jpg)  (http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/77/1127777.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2011, 07:41:02 AM
Dave,
here's what Grove's has to say about him. Birth year not really given, I think that "fl" means something like "first time we ever heard of him" .... :D

Mercy, Luis [Lewis]
(fl 1708–51). English composer and recorder player, presumably of French birth. On 26 July 1708 he played in a concert at Epsom, 'being the second time of his performance in public, since his arrival in England'. In 1716 he played two 'entertainments' in the interval of a play at the Lincoln's Inn Fields Theatre, London. By 1718, when Walsh and Hare published his op.1, he was in the service of James Brydges, Earl of Caernarvon (and soon to become Duke of Chandos) at Cannons, Middlesex. The sonatas are dedicated to Brydges, 'under whose roof they were composed'. In February 1719 he played 'a concerto and solo' for the recorder in a concert at Hickford's Room. A month later, he had left Brydges' service and what he then did for a living is unknown. On 18 July 1730, while living in the parish of St Paul's, Covent Garden, he married Anne Hampshire at St Vedast-alias-Foster. From 1733 to 1737 he lived in Orange Court, Castle Street.
In the preface to his op.1 recorder sonatas, Mercy defended the instrument against the encroachments of the violin (not the flute, as one would expect), praising the recorder's technical capability, clean passagework, ability (though soft) to make itself heard in a 20-strong ensemble, and good intonation even on high notes. According to Hawkins, Mercy was involved in the proposal by Thomas Stanesby (ii) to make the tenor, not the treble, the standard size of recorder, but Stanesby's prospectus (1732) makes no mention of him. Hawkins also reports (in two accounts) that around 1735 Mercy published 'twelve Solos, the first six whereof are said to be for the Traverse-flute, Violin, or English Flute [recorder], according to Mr. Stanesby's new system' or 'six solos for the [recorder], three whereof are said to be accommodated to Mr. Stanesby's new system'; no such sonatas are extant.

The last notice of Mercy as a performer is for his benefit concert on 1 April 1735 at York Buildings, when he played some of his own compositions. Around the same time he published a set of six sonatas for bassoon or violoncello, and about ten years later a set of six flute sonatas (both designated op.3) under his own auspices. It seems likely that the decline of the recorder had forced him to take up other woodwind instruments. He is last heard of in a letter of 13 August 1751 from Lady Caroline Brydges (James's granddaughter) concerning her visit to the Long Room at Bristol. 'The master of ceremonies ... is one Mercie, formerly a hautboy in my grandfather's band of music. He scraped acquaintance with me, to my great astonishment, and was more amazed when I found all ... he had ... was by knowing my grandfather before I was born'.

Hawkins's claim that Mercy's recorder sonatas 'are among the best compositions for that instrument extant' is not borne out in practice. Although Mercy had some good ideas and an interest in rhythmic variety, the sonatas are gauche and repetitive. His bassoon sonatas represent a considerable advance in compositional technique: the awkwardness is smoothed out into a pleasing and balanced series of phrases of considerable rhythmic imagination. 

Gurn's Note: Don'tcha just love it when biographers make value judgments?  ::)

WORKS
6 Solos, rec, bc, op.1 (London, 1718, 2/c1730)
6 Solos, rec, bc, op.2 (London, c1720, 2/c1730)
VI sonate, bn/vc, bc, op.3 (London, c1735)
VI sonate, fl, bc, op.3 (London, c1745)
BIBLIOGRAPHY
HawkinsH
D. Lasocki: Professional Recorder Players in England, 1540–1740 (diss., U. of Iowa, 1983)
G. Beeks: 'Handel and Music for the Earl of Carnarvon', Bach, Handel, Scarlatti: Tercentenary Essays, ed. P. Williams (Cambridge, 1985), 1–20


Thanks for bringing him to our attention. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music \ Hogwood  Hogwood (Chamber Organ) - Hob 18 01 Concerto #1 in C for Organ 2nd mvmt - Largo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2011, 08:28:03 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 22, 2011, 07:50:05 AM
Actually, it is an abbreviation of the Latin term, floruit, "flourished" or when he was most active.

Ah, excellent! My lesson for the day. I am really surprised that I never ran across that before...  :-\

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Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 02 23 Feldparthie in F for 6 Winds 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 22, 2011, 10:27:49 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 22, 2011, 06:45:44 AM
Gurn - yes, I have that same Cramer 2-CD set w/ John Khouri; I went ahead and purchased several other recordings of his, including the two inserted above of Hummel & Eberl but on a different restored fortepiano; exchanged some e-mails w/ him and left a post in the Old Musical Instruments Thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.msg460795.html#msg460795), for those who may be interested - Dave  :D

Man, that Cramer disk is very special. I've been able to hear two sonatas from that set, and I am deeply impressed. That set is now in my shopping cart for May's purchase (I allow myself to buy two or three CDs a month). The other recording in my cart is Volume 1 of Cerzny sonatas by Martin Jones:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516AhndIMFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

For my June purchase, I'm very serious about getting that Eberl complete sonata set. I didn't see that until today, and I'm very curious how those sound, since I'm loving Eberl's symphonies by the Concerto Koln!

8)

So, what are Eberl's sonatas like? In general, how long are his sonatas? Are they kinda romantic sounding or more classical?



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 22, 2011, 10:38:55 AM
By the way, Dave, thanks for the link to the old intruments thread, thats really cool you contacted the artist on his fortepianos...fascinating stuff !  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2011, 11:33:03 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 22, 2011, 07:41:02 AM
Dave,
here's what Grove's has to say about him. Birth year not really given, I think that "fl" means something like "first time we ever heard of him" .... :D

Hawkins's claim that Mercy's recorder sonatas 'are among the best compositions for that instrument extant' is not borne out in practice. Although Mercy had some good ideas and an interest in rhythmic variety, the sonatas are gauche and repetitive. His bassoon sonatas represent a considerable advance in compositional technique: the awkwardness is smoothed out into a pleasing and balanced series of phrases of considerable rhythmic imagination. 

Gurn's Note: Don'tcha just love it when biographers make value judgments?  ::)

WORKS
6 Solos, rec, bc, op.1 (London, 1718, 2/c1730)
6 Solos, rec, bc, op.2 (London, c1720, 2/c1730)
VI sonate, bn/vc, bc, op.3 (London, c1735)
VI sonate, fl, bc, op.3 (London, c1745)
BIBLIOGRAPHY
HawkinsH
D. Lasocki: Professional Recorder Players in England, 1540–1740 (diss., U. of Iowa, 1983)
G. Beeks: 'Handel and Music for the Earl of Carnarvon', Bach, Handel, Scarlatti: Tercentenary Essays, ed. P. Williams (Cambridge, 1985), 1–20


Thanks for bringing him to our attention. :)

Gurn - thanks for the additional information; the liner notes were of no help as to his origin except to state that he 'came to' England.  I've listened to that disc twice now and really like the music and the performances - cannot really agree w/ the statement in bold above; and am still interested in the Op. 3 bassoon works!  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2011, 11:44:53 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 22, 2011, 10:38:55 AM
By the way, Dave, thanks for the link to the old intruments thread, thats really cool you contacted the artist on his fortepianos...fascinating stuff !  ;D

Leo - glad that you like the information on John Khouri's pianos (in fact there is a LOT of interesting information in that thread on these older keyboard et al instruments) -  :)

Concerning Carl Czerny, I do have 3 discs of his music (chamber & symphonies) but no solo piano works, so will be curious as to your thoughts; seems that Martin Jones plans to continue (or Nimbus bring out) more of these solo compositions?

Anton Eberl's Piano Sonatas et al - the piano writing is excellent and Kouri's playing virtuosic; however, the recordings are closely miked and the mechanisms of the pianos are often heard (which usually does not bother me - they are what pianos of the era were!), along w/ some intermittent low-pitch humming from the pianist (nothing close to a Glenn Gould - but don't want to get into that arena).

I've attached a review from Fanfare (2009) by Jerry Dubins (who I usually like) - he is more negative about the instruments used in these performances; now I cannot remember him reviewing a lot of PI recordings, so that needs to be taken into account.  I guess that my suggestion is to try to listen to some 'long' snippets (if available) of a few of these pieces before a purchase since this is a 3-disc set.  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2011, 12:08:26 PM
Enjoyable discussion, Leo & Dave. :)

I haven't heard Eberl's solo piano works, I have 2 disks of his chamber works (that duplicate a couple works, IIRC) and that's it. However, he was known for his piano works, so really I am missing out. :-\  I will pick up those Khouri disks at the soonest point in my next fiscal cycle (I'm like Leo in that way. It helps curb impulse buys (a little)).

On the subject of noisy instruments and reviews of Khouri's disks; The first I ever got of him were the Clementi set and the Hummel "2 Sonatas for Fortepiano". I distinctly remember when fellow poster here, André, asked me about them so he might purchase them himself. I was momentarily at a loss for how to describe them, and finally decided to just tell him 'well, there disks are for people who really love fortepianos, warts and all. If the instruments give you problems to start with, then don't waste your money'. Still feel the same way today. They creak sometimes, and jangle a little too. Or maybe that's John jangling? No, it's the piano! Anyway, for a beginner who might be thinking of moving from modern Steinway's or whatever, I don't care how much you want to hear these composers.  :)

8)

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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations / Savall - Hob 20 1 The Seven Last Words - Orchestral version pt 3 - Sonata II. Grave e Cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 22, 2011, 12:47:58 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 22, 2011, 12:08:26 PM
Enjoyable discussion, Leo & Dave. :)

I haven't heard Eberl's solo piano works, I have 2 disks of his chamber works (that duplicate a couple works, IIRC) and that's it. However, he was known for his piano works, so really I am missing out. :-\  I will pick up those Khouri disks at the soonest point in my next fiscal cycle (I'm like Leo in that way. It helps curb impulse buys (a little)).

On the subject of noisy instruments and reviews of Khouri's disks; The first I ever got of him were the Clementi set and the Hummel "2 Sonatas for Fortepiano". I distinctly remember when fellow poster here, André, asked me about them so he might purchase them himself. I was momentarily at a loss for how to describe them, and finally decided to just tell him 'well, there disks are for people who really love fortepianos, warts and all. If the instruments give you problems to start with, then don't waste your money'. Still feel the same way today. They creak sometimes, and jangle a little too. Or maybe that's John jangling? No, it's the piano! Anyway, for a beginner who might be thinking of moving from modern Steinway's or whatever, I don't care how much you want to hear these composers.  :)

8)

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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations / Savall - Hob 20 1 The Seven Last Words - Orchestral version pt 3 - Sonata II. Grave e Cantabile

I don't mind all those creaks and jangles of the fortepiano either, rather, to me it's a comforting sound, like being home  ;D

I am now very interested in solo piano work from the early 19th century, particularly in sonatas, and my listening has tended towards this genre as of late. Another disk I was blown away by, is this disk:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/dec08/Boely_PhoenixCD127.jpg)

It goes without saying how great Christine Schornsheim is in these performances. She plays on two fortepianos, the table piano Érard, 1802 (for the Capricos, op. 2) and the fortepiano Érard 1808, for the sonatas.

This is the first time I had heard of Alexandre Boely (1785-1858) and I dearly hope more of his sonatas are recorded sometime in the near future, or sooner! I have read about him on this board before.

Here is a copy of the review of this recording from musicweb:

In programmes of chamber music of the first part of the 19th century, French music doesn't feature very prominently. Many composers who were celebrities in their time in France, and particularly in the drawing rooms of Paris, are largely ignored today. Names which spring to mind are those of Kalkbrenner, Onslow, Franchomme, Pleyel or even Reicha. Alexandre Pierre François Boëly is another name which is hardly known. The kind of music he is best known for is his organ music. He wrote quite a lot of it, and his works regularly appear on the programmes of organists. But his contributions to other musical genres are almost unknown. He wrote a number of works for violin and pianoforte, string trios and string quartets and music for pianoforte, including pieces for quatre-mains.
 
Boëly came from a musical family: his first teacher was his father Jean François (1739 - 1814), who was a theorist, singer and harpist. He entered the Conservatoire in 1796, but when a conflict arose between his father and one of the directors of the Conservatoire, Gossec, he left the institution. It was the music of Bach, Couperin and the Viennese classics which were part of his self-teaching after he had left the Conservatoire. Later on he mainly acted as an organist, which explains the large number of organ compositions. In 1840 he became organist at St Germain-l'Auxerrois. But the clergy found his style too austere and he was forced to resign.
 
This assessment of his style can be explained from his great interest in music of the past. It is interesting to quote his lifelong friend, the violinist Eugène Sauzay (1809-1901):

"He composed, played the piano and organ, and performed the viola parts in our quartets as well as Haydn himself did. Music was his whole life and he believed that anything that got in the way of music, including eating, was a waste of time. He was so familiar with early music and the very substance of the old masters, Bach especially, that in the long run he could no longer distinguish his own works from theirs. (...) When everything was ready, he would sit down at his pedal-piano with his snuff-box close at hand and play through Bach's three-part Chorals or a whole book of his fine Etudes".

These Etudes are probably the 'Trente Caprices ou Pièces d'étude pour le piano' opus 2, which are featured on this disc. They were published around 1816 in Paris. They were dedicated to 'Madame Bigot'; Marie Bigot née Kiené (1786 - 1820) was a famous pianist who performed in Vienna where she came into contact with Haydn, Salieri and Beethoven. The latter gave her the autograph of his Appassionata sonata which she had played at sight. In 1809 she and her husband moved to Paris, where she performed in attendance of, among others, Boëly and Cherubini. In her concerts she often included music of previous eras, especially Bach and Handel. In his Caprices Boëly pays tribute to those masters, although without imitating them. I don't think anyone listening to these Caprices will confuse them with the genuine works of the past masters Bach, Handel or Scarlatti.
 
The disc opens and closes with the two sonatas which were published as his opus 1 in 1810. These are influenced by Beethoven, whom Boëly greatly admired. According to a contemporary these sonatas were unique for France for their "love of liberty and youthful energy". In particular the first sonata is very Beethoven-like. The second movement, adagio con espressione, is dark and pathetic, and the sonata closes with a presto movement full of virtuosic passage work. The second is of a more light-hearted nature, reflected by the key of G major and the fact that the three movements are all written in a fast tempo: allegro con brio, scherzo (allegro) and rondo vivace ma non troppo presto.
 
It is quite difficult to understand why these two sonatas have been neglected. It could well be, though, that they need a historical piano to reveal their real character. For instance the passages in the closing movement of the first Sonata from opus 1 could easily sound empty and shallow. That is not the case here, because of the differences in colour between the descant, the middle and the bass of the piano played here, which results in a broad sound palette. Also the dynamic possibilities of the two pianos are used to great effect by Ms Schornsheim. In addition the Érard piano has some registers which have disappeared from modern concert grands, like the 'jeu de basson' which is used in the last movement of the second Sonata. It is put into effect by a knee lever which brings a roll of paper to touch lightly on the strings from the middle of the compass down to the last bass note. This paper vibrates on the strings when they are played, giving a bassoon-like sound.
 
The other instrument is a square piano, which was quite popular at the time and which was especially used at home. It is a very appropriate instrument to play the caprices which are more suitable to be played at home than in a public concert. As each of the caprices is rather short, the differentiation of sound the square piano is able to produce is very welcome. Apart from the registers additional variation is created by closing, opening or half-opening the lid.
 
Christine Schornsheim is one of the world's leading players of historical pianos and has produced a number of very fine recordings. She has a special interest in music which is largely neglected, and her choice of these pieces by Boëly is fully justified. Hopefully it will open the ears for the music of Boëly and his French contemporaries which fare well if played with historical instruments. One could argue that it is a shame that only a selection of the Caprices has been recorded, but the whole opus has been recorded before on a historical instrument (by Laure Colladant) and this way there was enough space left to record the two fine sonatas. Christine Schornsheim plays the programme splendidly and uses the two magnificent instruments to great effect. The recording engineer also has done a very good job and the booklet contains informative notes on Boëly and his music as well as information about the instrument - and the development of Érard pianos - by Michael Latcham.
 
--Johan van Veen






Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 22, 2011, 12:51:54 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 22, 2011, 11:44:53 AM
Leo - glad that you like the information on John Khouri's pianos (in fact there is a LOT of interesting information in that thread on these older keyboard et al instruments) -  :)

Concerning Carl Czerny, I do have 3 discs of his music (chamber & symphonies) but no solo piano works, so will be curious as to your thoughts; seems that Martin Jones plans to continue (or Nimbus bring out) more of these solo compositions?

Anton Eberl's Piano Sonatas et al - the piano writing is excellent and Kouri's playing virtuosic; however, the recordings are closely miked and the mechanisms of the pianos are often heard (which usually does not bother me - they are what pianos of the era were!), along w/ some intermittent low-pitch humming from the pianist (nothing close to a Glenn Gould - but don't want to get into that arena).

I've attached a review from Fanfare (2009) by Jerry Dubins (who I usually like) - he is more negative about the instruments used in these performances; now I cannot remember him reviewing a lot of PI recordings, so that needs to be taken into account.  I guess that my suggestion is to try to listen to some 'long' snippets (if available) of a few of these pieces before a purchase since this is a 3-disc set.  Dave  :D

Thank you so much for including a copy of that review from Fanfare Dave  8)

And thanks for your thoughts on this recording. It very much appears this will be my June purchase.  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 22, 2011, 01:01:07 PM
Now that I've read that Fanfare review on Eberl's sonatas, I've been tempted to move my purchase up to May, and waiting on the Czerny and Cramer for June!

Decisions! Decisions!  8) ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2011, 01:12:47 PM
:D yeah, doesn't that suck? To me, the wonderful thing is that now matter how many months come and go when I am presented with having to make choices like that, still happens to me nearly every month!   :D

OK, well speaking of turn of century France, fortepiano sonatas etc. (and no, I don't have Böely... yet), here is the disk that got ME started down that road:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Frenchpianofortesmallcover.jpg)

Look at the composers, all first rate sonata writers. And Raynaud really plays well on a nice fortepiano. Just sayin...   0:)

8)

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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall - BWV 1046 Concerto #1 in F 3rd mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 22, 2011, 02:21:53 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 22, 2011, 01:12:47 PM
:D yeah, doesn't that suck? To me, the wonderful thing is that now matter how many months come and go when I am presented with having to make choices like that, still happens to me nearly every month!   :D

OK, well speaking of turn of century France, fortepiano sonatas etc. (and no, I don't have Böely... yet), here is the disk that got ME started down that road:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Frenchpianofortesmallcover.jpg)

Look at the composers, all first rate sonata writers. And Raynaud really plays well on a nice fortepiano. Just sayin...   0:)

8)

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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall - BWV 1046 Concerto #1 in F 3rd mvmt - Allegro

That looks like a very interesting disk, I've never come across that one in my travels  :) Are the sonatas complete or excerpts?


Here are a couple more interesting sonatas I'm just hearing...sonatas by Friedrich Kalkbrenner (1785-1849) and Sigismund Thalberg (1812-1871), alas not on fortepiano in this record, but still very nice playing by Adrian Ruiz :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Fai90ki1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

From this record, I've only heard the Kalkbrenner Grand Sonata and I love the early romanticism of it. The Thalberg sonata, is more from the romantic period of course, but I'm also reaching for sonatas from the later 19th century. The history of the piano sonata is very interesting. A modern piano sonata (early 20th century modern) I dearly love is Charles Ives' famous Concord Sonata, which the more I hear, the more it sounds like Lizst!

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2011, 02:54:31 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 22, 2011, 02:21:53 PM
That looks like a very interesting disk, I've never come across that one in my travels  :) Are the sonatas complete or excerpts?


Here are a couple more interesting sonatas I'm just hearing...sonatas by Friedrich Kalkbrenner (1785-1849) and Sigismund Thalberg (1812-1871), alas not on fortepiano in this record, but still very nice playing by Adrian Ruiz :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Fai90ki1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

From this record, I've only heard the Kalkbrenner Grand Sonata and I love the early romanticism of it. The Thalberg, is more from the romantic period, but I'm reaching for sonatas from the later 19th century. The history of the piano sonata is very interesting. The most modern piano sonata that I've loved a long time, is Charles Ives' famous Concord Sonata, which the more I hear, the more it sounds like Lizst!

8)

Oh, complete, of course! Although the Edelmann and the Hüllmandel are just 1 movement works anyway. Raynaud is playing a 1786 Stein copy.

Pierre Verany label disks can be hard to find. As it happens, I got this one at BRO for $4.99. I saw it just one time after that in the Marketplace for $50 or so.  :o  Which is just wrong, of course.   >:( 

8)


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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall - BWV 1047 Concerto #2 in F 1st mvmt - [Allegro]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2011, 03:07:12 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 22, 2011, 02:21:53 PM
Here are a couple more interesting sonatas I'm just hearing...sonatas by Friedrich Kalkbrenner (1785-1849) and Sigismund Thalberg (1812-1871), alas not on fortepiano in this record, but still very nice playing by Adrian Ruiz :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Fai90ki1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

From this record, I've only heard the Kalkbrenner Grand Sonata and I love the early romanticism of it. The Thalberg, is more from the romantic period, but I'm reaching for sonatas from the later 19th century. The history of the piano sonata is very interesting. The most modern piano sonata that I've loved a long time, is Charles Ives' famous Concord Sonata, which the more I hear, the more it sounds like Lizst!


Thalberg was primarily a virtuoso, he composed in order to have things that were hard enough for him to play and influence people. I have a disk of his concerto-like works on Naxos (also not on pianoforte).

[asin]B00004RGDH[/asin]

Not a lot of depth, but plenty of flash! Which in 1835 would have made him King of the Hill.

Kalkbrenner was also known as being pretty flashy, but maybe a bit better of a composer. I would like to have 1 disk of his best sonatas played on a good pianoforte by a good player and I would probably have all I need. I hate not having any, but I don't want it all either. :D

I'm going to recommend to you a book. It's called The Sonata in the Classic Era by William Newman. Quite by coincidence I am re-reading it right now. Its original purchase in 2004 initiated my great affair with the Classical Sonata. He discusses every composer known to him and their works in view of the development of the genre. It is actually volume 2 of a 3 (4?) part set called A History of the Sonata Idea that goes from the early Baroque to what was then modern times (1960's). It has been a huge help for me in building up my collection in some sort of rational way.  I got mine "Used - Like New" at the Marketplace for $7, but I wouldn't count on that sort of luck. You wouldn't regret it if it cost you $25. Just sayin'.... :)

8)


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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall - BWV 1047 Concerto #2 in F 1st mvmt - [Allegro]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 22, 2011, 03:29:43 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 22, 2011, 02:54:31 PM
Oh, complete, of course! Although the Edelmann and the Hüllmandel are just 1 movement works anyway. Raynaud is playing a 1786 Stein copy.

Pierre Verany label disks can be hard to find. As it happens, I got this one at BRO for $4.99. I saw it just one time after that in the Marketplace for $50 or so.  :o  Which is just wrong, of course.   >:( 

8)


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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall - BWV 1047 Concerto #2 in F 1st mvmt - [Allegro]

Oh man, I really want that disk then!  Right now, it's not under 30 bucks so i'll have to wait and see ???

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 22, 2011, 03:38:47 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 22, 2011, 03:07:12 PM
Thalberg was primarily a virtuoso, he composed in order to have things that were hard enough for him to play and influence people. I have a disk of his concerto-like works on Naxos (also not on pianoforte).

[asin]B00004RGDH[/asin]

Not a lot of depth, but plenty of flash! Which in 1835 would have made him King of the Hill.

Kalkbrenner was also known as being pretty flashy, but maybe a bit better of a composer. I would like to have 1 disk of his best sonatas played on a good pianoforte by a good player and I would probably have all I need. I hate not having any, but I don't want it all either. :D

Until recently, flash and virtuoso playing was not my preference in a piano work, but now I've had a change of heart, not sure why exactly. I'm not seeking a steady diet of flash, but maybe a little here and there  ;) I'm just getting into Liszt, who was not someone I was previously interested in hearing!

QuoteI'm going to recommend to you a book. It's called The Sonata in the Classic Era by William Newman. Quite by coincidence I am re-reading it right now. Its original purchase in 2004 initiated my great affair with the Classical Sonata. He discusses every composer known to him and their works in view of the development of the genre. It is actually volume 2 of a 3 (4?) part set called A History of the Sonata Idea that goes from the early Baroque to what was then modern times (1960's). It has been a huge help for me in building up my collection in some sort of rational way.  I got mine "Used - Like New" at the Marketplace for $7, but I wouldn't count on that sort of luck. You wouldn't regret it if it cost you $25. Just sayin'.... :)

Thank you very much for the book recommend! I am going to seek that out for sure!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2011, 05:46:33 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 22, 2011, 01:01:07 PM
Now that I've read that Fanfare review on Eberl's sonatas, I've been tempted to move my purchase up to May, and waiting on the Czerny and Cramer for June!

Decisions! Decisions!  8) ;D

Leo & Gurn - can't keep up w/ you guys!  ;) ;D

Love Schornsheim and the price is right, although I don't know the composer - may order anyway!  :)

Also, believe that I'm attracted to the Bassoon Works of Merci - listened to that flute disc for a third time and really enjoy the performances - so 'how many' bassoon discs are there available?  Worth a chance -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Philoctetes on April 22, 2011, 11:57:18 PM
Out of the symphonies of Haydn and Mozart, which would you say are the most interesting (as you would define it)?

Edit: Please give the reason that it is interesting (to you).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 23, 2011, 06:45:38 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on April 22, 2011, 11:57:18 PM
Out of the symphonies of Haydn and Mozart, which would you say are the most interesting (as you would define it)?

Edit: Please give the reason that it is interesting (to you).

Piloctetes, all of the symphonies of those composers are interesting! In particular, out of Haydn and Mozart, symphonies in minor keys are always an interesting listen, and the differences between Haydn and Mozart when writing in the minor key are interesting to consider too.

For Mozart, I tend to gravitate towards the late symphonies, starting with the Prague, and up to no.41 in C Major ("Jupiter"). For Haydn, I tend to listen to the Paris and London symphonies. Why? Thats a great question.

I like the sound world of Mozart's mature style. I also appreciate how, like Haydn, each work exists in it's sound world, it's own "gastalt" if you will. I also like the profound slow movements of Mozart and Haydn in thier later symphonic works. Also, in Haydn, it's fun to hear for his sense of humour in his Paris and London symphonies, where even some slow movements seem transcendent in wit and humor (The "Clock" movement in Symphony no. 101 to name an example, or the "Surprise" symphony), but there is that quality in all his works in some measure or quality.

Thats not to say I never listen to the earlier works, of course I enjoy those. For Mozart, I LOVE no.22, 25, and 29. As for Haydn, I still need to get to know his earlier symphonies. I've heard many, but there are so many to catch up on!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 23, 2011, 06:49:33 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 22, 2011, 05:46:33 PM
Leo & Gurn - can't keep up w/ you guys!  ;) ;D

Love Schornsheim and the price is right, although I don't know the composer - may order anyway!  :)

Also, believe that I'm attracted to the Bassoon Works of Merci - listened to that flute disc for a third time and really enjoy the performances - so 'how many' bassoon discs are there available?  Worth a chance -  :D

;D

I feel you will love the Schornsheim Boely disk. The music has such a wonderful mood and quality, like these early romantic works do!

Thanks for the thoughts on Merci too...I could use a little more basoon in my life. As for flute, I have enjoyed getting into the Johann Hasse works for flute  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2011, 06:55:20 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on April 22, 2011, 11:57:18 PM
Out of the symphonies of Haydn and Mozart, which would you say are the most interesting (as you would define it)?

Edit: Please give the reason that it is interesting (to you).

Isn't that question more properly answered by someone who enjoys writing essays?  Like Mirror Image for example. He loves writing essays. Or Newman, maybe...   ::)

Anyway, Leo is right, they are all good, and interesting in each their own way. I barely have a favorite. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations / Savall - G 448 Guitar Quintet #4 in G "Fandango" 2nd mvmt - Allegro maestoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 23, 2011, 07:23:02 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on April 22, 2011, 11:57:18 PM
Edit: Please give the reason that it is interesting (to you).

Isn't this coming from the person that said that music is just pleasing sound, and doesn't read into anything?  Why are you asking us to read into why we like the music that we do, if you don't?

I'll tell you my favorites of Mozart: #25, 29, 35, 36, 38-41 and the Salzburg Symphonies.  Why those?  Who knows, I just like them.

I like all of Haydn's symphonies but my favorites are the Storm and Stress and the Paris symphonies.


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 23, 2011, 07:31:14 AM
Well, the other day I received a small package from BRO which included the disc shown below (left) of a composer 'little known' to me (have just one other chamber recording of some of his works, shared w/ Conradin Kreutzer, no relationship!):

Kreutzer, Joseph (1790-1840) - Trios, Op. 9, Nos. 1-4 performed by the Gragnani Trio (includes flute, violin, & guitar) - Joe was the illegitimate son of a Wilhelm Kreutzer, and was adopted by his music teacher, Paul Kreutzer (apparently an uncle) - also, no relationship to the famous violinist of the time, Rodolphe Kreutzer, who Beethoven dedicated his No. 9 Violin Sonata.  So a LOT of unrelated Kreutzers floating around at that time!

Little is known about J. Kreutzer - he was a violinist, composer, and conductor; and also taught Norbert Burgmuller (who has come up in this thread); his compositions are few, i.e. mainly chamber works for solo guitar and strings w/ guitar; the only other 'shared' disc I have of his works is shown below (right).

I've listen to these Guitar Trios multiple times and thoroughly enjoy - just an interesting combination (published in 1823) but apparently not that unusual for the times -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KruetzerTriosGuitar/1261315994_XKrZvZZ-O.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4011563103431.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2011, 07:52:03 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 23, 2011, 07:31:14 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4011563103431.jpg)

I find this cover a bit disturbing; it looks like a very young person in what I would call a rather "sexual" attitude.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 23, 2011, 07:53:03 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 23, 2011, 07:31:14 AM
Well, the other day I received a small package from BRO which included the disc shown below (left) of a composer 'little known' to me (have just one other chamber recording of some of his works, shared w/ Conradin Kreutzer, no relationship!):

Kreutzer, Joseph (1790-1840) - Trios, Op. 9, Nos. 1-4 performed by the Gragnani Trio (includes flute, violin, & guitar) - Joe was the illegitimate son of a Wilhelm Kreutzer, and was adopted by his music teacher, Paul Kreutzer (apparently an uncle) - also, no relationship to the famous violinist of the time, Rodolphe Kreutzer, who Beethoven dedicated his No. 9 Violin Sonata.  So a LOT of unrelated Kreutzers floating around at that time!

Little is known about J. Kreutzer - he was a violinist, composer, and conductor; and also taught Norbert Burgmuller (who has come up in this thread); his compositions are few, i.e. mainly chamber works for solo guitar and strings w/ guitar; the only other 'shared' disc I have of his works is shown below (right).

I've listen to these Guitar Trios multiple times and thoroughly enjoy - just an interesting combination (published in 1823) but apparently not that unusual for the times -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KruetzerTriosGuitar/1261315994_XKrZvZZ-O.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4011563103431.jpg)

This sounds interesting! Thanks for the heads up. Classical guitar is something I want to try, especially in the early 19th century or round about there.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2011, 07:56:20 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2011, 07:52:03 AM
I find this cover a bit disturbing; it looks like a very young person in what I would call a rather "sexual" attitude.

I actually had that precise thought. I'm not disturbed that an artist painted it, but rather that an art director found it suitable for a CD cover...  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 23, 2011, 08:42:29 AM
Now Antoine - you're reading too much into what I felt was a charming portrait of a young boy (but maybe I've visited too many art museums over the years?) - granted I'm not sure what the selection of this cover art has to do w/ the music, but that is quite common?

But out of curiosity, I looked up the artist in the liner notes - his name was Friedrich von Amerling (1803-1887) - he was the Austrian court painter for 45 years and specialized in portraits, and was considered one of two of the most important portrait painters of the 19th century in Austria - Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_von_Amerling), for those interested.

And more information about the painting (available as a print apparently!) which is called A Portrait of a Boy from 1830 HERE (http://www.reproarte.com/picture/Friedrich+von_Amerling/Portait+of+a+Boy/17357.html) - the painter would have been in his late 20s and before his court appointment, so not sure  whether this was a commissioned piece or one the artist just painted?  The information given states the painting is in the Biedermeier Style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermeier), which might explain the natural pose used? Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 23, 2011, 08:51:55 AM
Because of Easter, I'm suddenly in the mood for 18th century liturgical music, in particular, that of Michael Haydn, in this disk:

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/3c/3a/00093a3c_medium.jpeg)

Missa 'Substitulo Sancti Francisci' (St Francis Mass)

Missa 'Pro Defuncto Archiepiscopo Sigismundo' (Requiem)


Michael Haydn's Requiem for Archbishop Sigismund Graf von Schrattenbach (1698 -1771) is a rather new work to me, as I'm on my second listen, but I'm happy to report this work is profoundly moving and I'm very happy to be discovering more great  sacred music from the 18th century.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Philoctetes on April 23, 2011, 08:59:56 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 23, 2011, 07:23:02 AM
Isn't this coming from the person that said that music is just pleasing sound, and doesn't read into anything?  Why are you asking us to read into why we like the music that we do, if you don't?

Mainly,  because I'm going to get a selection, and I sort of assume that other people have some sort of reasoning why they like the things they like. I have a feeling that most people probably don't listen to music the way that I do, and was just hoping that they would delineate, so I wouldn't have to get them all.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Philoctetes on April 23, 2011, 09:03:04 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 23, 2011, 06:45:38 AM
Piloctetes, all of the symphonies of those composers are interesting! In particular, out of Haydn and Mozart, symphonies in minor keys are always an interesting listen, and the differences between Haydn and Mozart when writing in the minor key are interesting to consider too.

For Mozart, I tend to gravitate towards the late symphonies, starting with the Prague, and up to no.41 in C Major ("Jupiter"). For Haydn, I tend to listen to the Paris and London symphonies. Why? Thats a great question.

I like the sound world of Mozart's mature style. I also appreciate how, like Haydn, each work exists in it's sound world, it's own "gastalt" if you will. I also like the profound slow movements of Mozart and Haydn in thier later symphonic works. Also, in Haydn, it's fun to hear for his sense of humour in his Paris and London symphonies, where even some slow movements seem transcendent in wit and humor (The "Clock" movement in Symphony no. 101 to name an example, or the "Surprise" symphony), but there is that quality in all his works in some measure or quality.

Thats not to say I never listen to the earlier works, of course I enjoy those. For Mozart, I LOVE no.22, 25, and 29. As for Haydn, I still need to get to know his earlier symphonies. I've heard many, but there are so many to catch up on!

8)

Thanks for some guidelines. I think I'm going to pick up a bunch of their minor symphonies and see how that goes.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2011, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 23, 2011, 08:42:29 AM
Now Antoine - you're reading too much into what I felt was a charming portrait of a young boy (but maybe I've visited too many art museums over the years?) - granted I'm not sure what the selection of this cover art has to do w/ the music, but that is quite common?

But out of curiosity, I looked up the artist in the liner notes - his name was Friedrich von Amerling (1803-1887) - he was the Austrian court painter for 45 years and specialized in portraits, and was considered one of two of the most important portrait painters of the 19th century in Austria - Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_von_Amerling), for those interested.

And more information about the painting (available as a print apparently!) which is called A Portrait of a Boy from 1830 HERE (http://www.reproarte.com/picture/Friedrich+von_Amerling/Portait+of+a+Boy/17357.html) - the painter would have been in his late 20s and before his court appointment, so not sure  whether this was a commissioned piece or one the artist just painted?  The information given states the painting is in the Biedermeier Style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermeier), which might explain the natural pose used? Dave  :)

Maybe you're right. I don't have rational arguments to justify my reaction, but I swear that I hadn't left a son of mine alone with that guy (if I had a son!  ;D). I had a similar reaction some years ago when I saw those creepy pictures of little girls by Lewis Carroll.   


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2011, 11:23:33 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2011, 11:20:26 AM
Maybe you're right. I don't have rational arguments to justify my reaction, but I swear that I hadn't left a son of mine alone with that guy (if I had a son!  ;D). I had a similar reaction when some years ago I saw those creepy pictures of little girls by Lewis Carroll.

Despite all that. I still agree with your initial reaction. That was the pose they used to put me in back when I was a calendar model.... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations \ Savall - G 448 Quintet #4 in D for Strings & Guitar 1st mvmt - Pastorale
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2011, 11:33:59 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 23, 2011, 11:23:33 AM
Despite all that. I still agree with your initial reaction. That was the pose they used to put me in back when I was a calendar model.... :)

Were you too a calendar model?

This is one of my pictures when I was younger:

(http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/09/28/young_gallery__322x400.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2011, 11:38:10 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2011, 11:33:59 AM
Were you too a calendar model?

This is one of my pictures when I was younger:

(http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/09/28/young_gallery__322x400.jpg)

8)

Pfff. Much younger, I would guess. I aged well though, although the shaggy hair on that painting eludes me now...   0:)

8)



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Now playing:
Le Concert des Nations \ Savall - G 448 Quintet #4 in D for Strings & Guitar 3rd mvmt - Grave assai - Fandango
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Philoctetes on April 23, 2011, 12:48:12 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on April 23, 2011, 09:03:04 AM
Thanks for some guidelines. I think I'm going to pick up a bunch of their minor symphonies and see how that goes.  :)

Here's what I've got lined up for the next week:

Haydn
Davis/RCO: Symphonies 95, 96, 98, 102-104
Solomons/L'EA: Symphonies 35, 38, 39, 49, 58, 59
Amadeus Quartet: String Quartets Op. 55 and 74

Mozart:
Karajan/BPO: Symphonies 38-39
Levine/WP: Symphonies 25-27
Alban Berg Quartet: String Quartets 14-15, 18-19

Thanks again Leo.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 23, 2011, 01:36:31 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on April 23, 2011, 12:48:12 PM
Here's what I've got lined up for the next week:

Haydn
Davis/RCO: Symphonies 95, 96, 98, 102-104
Solomons/L'EA: Symphonies 35, 38, 39, 49, 58, 59
Amadeus Quartet: String Quartets Op. 55 and 74

Mozart:
Karajan/BPO: Symphonies 38-39
Levine/WP: Symphonies 25-27
Alban Berg Quartet: String Quartets 14-15, 18-19

Thanks again Leo.

Excellant choices Philoctetes! I'm a big fan of Levine's Mozart by the way, and the Alban Berg Quartet's Mozart string quartet box  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 07:21:58 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E8Btcfx%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QNEh-pNSL._SS400_.jpg)

I really enjoying this disk this Easter morning (my first trek through it). This morning I started with Telemann's Matthew Passion, but decided I was in the mood for some galant goodness in the form of the early symphony!

8)

Here is a short description from the Amazon product description:

Jan Willem de Vriend leads his orchestra with a flourish in these refreshing pieces that have an allure and style that cannot be missed.

For fourteen years Ricci (Como) was a regular guest at the court in The Hague. There he was a 'musicien particulier' and he wrote several works, chiefly instrumental, for the prince and other members of the court. Several of these compositions were published there, in Amsterdam or London. His opus 2, a volume containing six symphonies, was published in Amsterdam in 1766. The orchestra was a standard one as it had been used in Italy since 1720: two oboes, horn, violin, viola and double bass, and a harpsichord if desired. As to length, form and content, these works can hardly be likened to the symphonies of Mozart and Haydn. They are short pieces consisting of three movements, simple in tone, but very entertaining. Both harmonically and thematically, the music is very accessible. One or two passages, such as the first movement of the second symphony, present a small harmonic challenge to the listener. There is also variation in the instrumentation: in the minuet of the third symphony, Ricci suddenly presents a transverse flute. And the fourth and final symphony is even a violin concerto in disguise, including the cadenza at the end of the second movement.

The Radio Kamer Filharmonie (RKF) was founded in 2005 and is made up of a base of approximately sixty musicians that can when necessary be expanded to full symphony orchestra size or can be reduced to a chamber orchestra. Jan Willem de Vriend studied violin at the conservatories of Amsterdam and The Hague and founded the Combattimento Consort Amsterdam in 1982. As concert master and artistic director he has directed many extraordinary concerts and opera productions in the Netherlands and abroad.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 07:28:18 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 07:21:58 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E8Btcfx%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QNEh-pNSL._SS400_.jpg)

I really enjoying this disk this Easter morning (my first trek through it). This morning I started with Telemann's Matthew Passion, but decided I was in the mood for some galant goodness in the form of the early symphony!

8)

Yup, I like that disk from time to time too. Certainly not heavyweight, which is perfect for those relaxed times. Ricci was a stranger to me before that, and otherwise still is. I think he is fairly similar to Sammartini in many ways, which can't be a bad thing. :)

For me, my weekly commune with the world beyond the stars, this week guided by Christoph Dohnanyi with the Cleveland Orchestra. A version with particularly good singing all round. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra/Dohnanyi - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt -  Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 07:32:39 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 07:28:18 AM
Yup, I like that disk from time to time too. Certainly not heavyweight, which is perfect for those relaxed times. Ricci was a stranger to me before that, and otherwise still is. I think he is fairly similar to Sammartini in many ways, which can't be a bad thing. :)

For me, my weekly commune with the world beyond the stars, this week guided by Christoph Dohnanyi with the Cleveland Orchestra. A version with particularly good singing all round. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra/Dohnanyi - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt -  Adagio molto e cantabile

I 've been getting a Ludwig Van No.9 inch again lately, so I may have to listen to my Furtwangler SACD release of the Lucerne 9 sometime soon  ;D



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 07:38:03 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 07:32:39 AM
I 've been getting a Ludwig Van No.9 inch again lately, so I may have to listen to my Furtwangler SACD release of the Lucerne 9 sometime soon  ;D

Yeah, I have to scratch that itch on occasion myself. Right now I have 82 versions that I rotate on a fairly regular basis. Got Furt in there somewhere... :D

8)

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Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra/Dohnanyi - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai / Recitative - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2011, 07:47:08 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 07:38:03 AM
Yeah, I have to scratch that itch on occasion every Sunday morning myself.

There fixed that for you. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 07:49:06 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 24, 2011, 07:47:08 AM
There fixed that for you. ;D

:D  I was trying to be modest and not scare the man away. One doesn't really glimpse the depths of my fanaticism until we get to The Ninth.   :)

8)

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Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra/Dohnanyi - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai / Recitative - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 07:50:21 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 07:38:03 AM
Yeah, I have to scratch that itch on occasion myself. Right now I have 82 versions that I rotate on a fairly regular basis. Got Furt in there somewhere... :D

8)

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Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra/Dohnanyi - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai / Recitative - Allegro assai

:o Wow, that's quite the collection of the No.9! But since I have about the same number of Mahler 9 I can't say a thing! My poor fiancee and the music she has to put up with!  :P

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 07:53:59 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 07:50:21 AM
:o Wow, that's quite the collection of the No.9! But since I have about the same number of Mahler 9 I can't say a thing! My poor fiancee and the music she has to put up with!  :P

Well, one has to forgive people their enthusiasms. I knew about your Mahleria but I have casually ignored it. I figure if quinine doesn't help, then you just go with it... :D  Yes, my wife knows every word of Schiller's Ode, despite herself...  >:D

8)


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Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra/Dohnanyi - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai / Recitative - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2011, 07:54:45 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 07:50:21 AM
:o Wow, that's quite the collection of the No.9! But since I have about the same number of Mahler 9 I can't say a thing! My poor fiancee and the music she has to put up with!  :P

I told Gurn that he was just like a Mahlerite with his lvb 9 obsession! >:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 07:58:22 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 24, 2011, 07:54:45 AM
I told Gurn that he was just like a Mahlerite with his lvb 9 obsession! >:D

Yes, it was fair warning. It was the best I could do without actually listening to Mahler.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 08:04:36 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 07:58:22 AM
Yes, it was fair warning. It was the best I could do without actually listening to Mahler.... :D

8)

Ha ha! How about Mahler's "edition" (rather, re-orchestration) of the Beethoven 9? That is another way to listen to Mahler, without listening to him (but kinda listening to him)!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 08:10:03 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 08:04:36 AM
Ha ha! How about Mahler's "edition" (rather, re-orchestration) of the Beethoven 9? That is another way to listen to Mahler, without listening to him (but kinda listening to him)!  ;D

Got it (on video, no less!). Detroit Symphony / Nëeme Jarvi. I put down my reaction to unfair prejudice on my part against the re-orchestrator. I'll have to work up the nerve to try it again sometime. :)

8)

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Now playing:
André Raynaud - Adam, JL Op 6 #1 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 08:14:06 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 08:10:03 AM
Got it (on video, no less!). Detroit Symphony / Nëeme Jarvi. I put down my reaction to unfair prejudice on my part against the re-orchestrator. I'll have to work up the nerve to try it again sometime. :)

8)

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Now playing:
André Raynaud - Adam, JL Op 6 #1 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro

Ha ha, yeah, to tell the truth I think Mahler should of left the score alone. As a historical artifact of late 19th century concert practice, it has some value I guess  ;) I have to laugh at Mahler purists who poo-poo interventionist approaches to Mahler's scores, when Mahler himself had no qualms! (I won't go there though!)  8)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 08:18:46 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 08:14:06 AM
Ha ha, yeah, to tell the truth I think Mahler should of left the score alone. As a historical artifact of late 19th century concert practice, it has some value I guess  ;) I have to laugh at Mahler purists who poo-poo interventionist approaches to Mahler's scores, when Mahler himself had no qualms! (I won't go there though!)  8)

Yeah, I've seen discussions along those lines before, but always refrained from taking part because of my notorious temper. When I read things like "this is how Beethoven would have done it if he had his stuff together" I could just spit. :D  Ah well, Mahler was just carrying on a proud tradition. Anyone who was anyone had a go at reorchestrating Beethoven. Clearly he didn't know his ass from his elbow. Whence greatness?  ???   :)

8)

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Now playing:
André Raynaud - Dussek Op 5 #3 Sonata in Ab for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 08:20:28 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 22, 2011, 01:12:47 PM

OK, well speaking of turn of century France, fortepiano sonatas etc. (and no, I don't have Böely... yet), here is the disk that got ME started down that road:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Frenchpianofortesmallcover.jpg)

Look at the composers, all first rate sonata writers. And Raynaud really plays well on a nice fortepiano. Just sayin...   0:)

Wow...this collection is amazing! What fantastic sound from the fortepiano too. I'm getting a good education on French classical now  8)

After hearing the Mehul on this disk, I listened to a collection of Mehul's 4 four symphonies (Nimbus label), and heard the first three and found them to be a revelation! Wow!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 08:22:38 AM
I am listening to this now...a mass setting from Francesco FEO (1667-1740). Wow...a great mood, what I only describe as "spiritually sparse" because of the five voices, organ, and thinned out orchestration. It really is wonderful. I am an agnostic, but a HUGE fan of 16-18th century sacred music!

I include a review of this CPO disk below  8)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Feo_7773332.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/WP_Francesco_Feo.jpg/220px-WP_Francesco_Feo.jpg)

Francesco FEO (1667-1740)

Missa [44:59]
Confitebor a 5 [12:52]

In the 1720s and 1730s Naples was gaining ground in Italian musical life. Even a celebrated composer like Vivaldi began to feel the effects of the growing popularity of the Neapolitan style. His operas became less popular in comparison to the more melodious and galant operas by composers from Naples. Today the best-known representative of the Neapolitan style is Giovanni Battista Pergolesi, whose Stabat mater is one of the most popular works of the entire 18th century and is probably as frequently performed as Bach's St Matthew Passion or Mozart's Requiem. But in his own days this work wasn't received with unanimous enthusiasm. Some considered his music far too operatic and frivolous for such serious subject matter. Today the Neapolitan style is still often associated with easiness and superficiality. Of all Neapolitan music Pergolesi's Stabat mater is almost the only piece to receive much attention, whereas most vocal works from Naples are largely ignored. This recording is very interesting as we get acquainted with a hardly-known composer whose religious music far outweighs his secular oeuvre.

Francisco Feo was born in Naples and also died there. He received his first musical education at the Conservatorio di S. Maria della Pietà dei Turchini, at the same time as the much better-known Leonardo Leo. Very quickly he started to make a name for himself as a composer of operas. He also contributed arias and scenes to operas by other composers. His first big success was his opera seria 'Siface' from 1723. This is also an important work for historical reasons: it was the first opera on a libretto by Pietro Metastasio who was to become the most famous librettist of the 18th century.

In the realm of religious music Feo composed music in all the then common genres, like oratorios, masses, vesper psalms, cantatas and lamentations. On this disc one of his masses is performed, unfortunately without any specification. It is written for 5 voices with choir and orchestra, but this doesn't help to identify it: Feo wrote five masses with the same scoring. The programme notes mention that this Mass, together with other compositions from Naples, found its way to the court in Dresden. This was the effect of the engagement of King Carlo III of Naples to Princess Maria Amalia of Saxonia in 1738, at which occasion music from both cities was exchanged.

Some Neapolitan music may be a bit simple and superficial, that is certainly not the case with this mass. The structure is a little odd: as common in Italy all attention goes to the Kyrie and the Gloria (together 33 minutes), whereas the Credo is rather short (9:30). The Sanctus and Agnus Dei (together less than 3 minutes) are little more than appendices which are limited to a declamation of the text without any repetition or elaboration. That is very different in the first two sections. Polyphony is rather rare in Neapolitan music, but Feo makes use of it several times: in the first Kyrie which is repeated after the Christe, and again at the end of the Gloria, on the text "Cum Sancto Spiritu". There is also some text expression: the verse 'Qui tollis' is set to descending figures, and the word "miserere" is followed by a general pause. In 'Qui sedes' the same word is set to dissonant chords. Dissonants also appear in 'Et incarnatus est' which is set homophonically. Dissonants, chromaticism and suspiratio figures are features of the 'Crucifixus' which is the most expressive part of this mass. Very eloquent is also the contrast between the tenor solo in the opening section of the Gloria on the words "et in terra" and the tutti on "pax".

In 'Confitebor tibi Domine' (Psalm 110/111) soli and tutti alternate with the latter used as ritornellos. Two parts of the text are singled out with musical means: "Sanctum et terribile nomen eius" (Holy and frightful is his name) en "Initium sapientiae timor Domini" (fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom).

In the programme notes Gerhard Poppe writes that "both works are ideally suited for ridding the heads of many people of many inherited prejudices about Neapolitan sacred music". The performance aptly supports this wish, even though one has to question whether Feo's sacred music is representative of what was written in Naples. But the soloists, choir and orchestra give fine performances and explore the quite rich texture of this music well. The vocal solo parts are not very virtuosic. Only in the 'Laudamus te' do we encounter coloraturas of any difficulty. The soloists are therefore rather modest in their performances. They could have been a little more extraverted and shown more presence. Obviously I don't know the score, but I would be surprised if the composer had asked for a staccato-like articulation as the singers produce in the opening section of the Gloria.

These niggling remarks don't spoil my great appreciation of this release which offers an interesting and worthwhile addition to the catalogue of Italian sacred music of the 18th century.

Johan van Veen

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 08:25:43 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 08:20:28 AM
Wow...this collection is amazing! What fantastic sound from the fortepiano too. I'm getting a good education on French classical now  8)

After hearing the Mehul on this disk, I listened to a collection of Mehul's 4 four symphonies (Nimbus label), and heard the first three and found them to be a revelation! Wow!

Yes, I had that disk at one time (can't put my hands on it right this minute  :-[ ) and really quite enjoyed it. Mehul was a leading light in French music, although he was mainly noted for his operas. I think Gabriel posted something about the operas in here somewhere (damn thread is getting unwieldy!).  I'm really enjoying this Dussek sonata in Ab right now. He was a star!

8)

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Now playing:
André Raynaud - Dussek Op 5 #3 Sonata in Ab for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 08:38:04 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 08:25:43 AM
Yes, I had that disk at one time (can't put my hands on it right this minute  :-[ ) and really quite enjoyed it. Mehul was a leading light in French music, although he was mainly noted for his operas. I think Gabriel posted something about the operas in here somewhere (damn thread is getting unwieldy!).  I'm really enjoying this Dussek sonata in Ab right now. He was a star!

8)

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Now playing:
André Raynaud - Dussek Op 5 #3 Sonata in Ab for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro

Dussek's sonatas are another revelation to my ears. I think hearing the Staier disk got me rolling on my recent sonata binge!

I just LOVE Dussek's Piano Sonata No.26, Op.70 'Le retour à Paris'   ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 08:43:48 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 08:25:43 AM
Mehul was a leading light in French music, although he was mainly noted for his operas. I think Gabriel posted something about the operas in here somewhere (damn thread is getting unwieldy!).  I'm really enjoying this Dussek sonata in Ab right now. He was a star!

If I only had more time, I would try out a Mehul opera or two. Because of the length of Operas, I generally stick to the intrumental works, or Masses (for vocal music) of the composers I'm interested in. Yet, I bet I'm missing out on a lot! I am versed in Mozart's operas, and a smattering of others, such as Hasse and Cimerosa. But when it comes to opera, I'm pretty much only interested in the classical era operatic reportoire. I am becoming very interested in Opera Seria, because of Hasse's Cleofide, of which I've enjoyed hearing the excepts.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 08:43:48 AM
If I only had more time, I would try out a Mehul opera or two. Because of the length of Operas, I generally stick to the intrumental works, or Masses (for vocal music) of the composers I'm interested in. Yet, I bet I'm missing out on a lot! I am versed in Mozart's operas, and a smattering of others, such as Hasse and Cimerosa. But when it comes to opera, I'm pretty much only interested in the classical era operatic reportoire. I am becoming very interested in Opera Seria, because of Hasse's Cleofide, of which I've enjoyed hearing the excepts.

8)

Yes, opera does turn out to be very worthwhile. I now have all of Haydn's operas, and find them very enjoyable too. For whatever reason, his patron likes recitative to excess, and despite the fact that Haydn catered to that oddity, still his arias are outstanding. My favorite opera is still "Le Nozze di Figaro", but I have finally branched out from there, even beyond "Don Giovanni"!  :D

8)

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Now playing:
André Raynaud - Dussek Op 5 #3 Sonata in Ab for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Rondeau
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 09:13:11 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 08:49:03 AM
Yes, opera does turn out to be very worthwhile. I now have all of Haydn's operas, and find them very enjoyable too. For whatever reason, his patron likes recitative to excess, and despite the fact that Haydn catered to that oddity, still his arias are outstanding. My favorite opera is still "Le Nozze di Figaro", but I have finally branched out from there, even beyond "Don Giovanni"!  :D

8)

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Now playing:
André Raynaud - Dussek Op 5 #3 Sonata in Ab for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Rondeau

Don Giovanni was my top Mozart opera for a long time, but now Le Nozze de Figaro has taken top place  :) It is my favorite opera period. Indeed, it taught me how to listen to opera. However, Don Giovanni was the first opera I felt that I "got" or understood, in terms of the special tension between words, drama, and music. I love the arias of the ladies in that one. BUT Le Nozze di Figaro, especially at the beginning of Act II, with the introduction of the Countess, is one of the most ecstatic spectacles I've ever heard in music, indeed, Mozart changed my life!





Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 09:15:47 AM
A couple years ago I aquired some Haydn operas on LP for a raining day on vacation. I'm really looking forward to listening to Haydn's operas someday  8) It's been a long time since I could take a vacation though!  :'(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 09:20:05 AM
This is a quiet day at work, and so I've been able to listen to some things I put aside special that I've been interested to hear, outside of my usual interests, and I'm discovering some new favorites. Such as this recording, performing Attilio Ariosti's sonatas with the Viola A'mour, an instrument of which I've read about on this thread, many moons ago:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BMh965pdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/ARIOSTI_Atilio_kompozytor_nadworny_Friedricha_I_Niemcy_XVIII.jpg/220px-ARIOSTI_Atilio_kompozytor_nadworny_Friedricha_I_Niemcy_XVIII.jpg)

Oh my...this is incredible stuff.  :o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 09:13:11 AM
Don Giovanni was my top Mozart opera for a long time, but now Le Nozze de Figaro has taken top place  :) It is my favorite opera period. Indeed, it taught me how to listen to opera. However, Don Giovanni was the first opera I felt that I "got" or understood, in terms of the special tension between words, drama, and music. I love the arias of the ladies in that one. BUT Le Nozze di Figaro, especially at the beginning of Act II, with the introduction of the Countess, is one of the most ecstatic spectacles I've ever heard in music, indeed, Mozart changed my life!

Well, oddly or not, my favorite part of Figaro is the first act.  The drama unfolds, there is comedy and drama, and the music is spectacular! Not that the rest isn't great too, but... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music \ Hogwood  Brown  (Natural Horn) - Hob 07d 03 Concerto #1 in D for Horn 3rd mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 09:46:52 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 09:32:26 AM
Well, oddly or not, my favorite part of Figaro is the first act.  The drama unfolds, there is comedy and drama, and the music is spectacular! Not that the rest isn't great too, but... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music \ Hogwood  Brown  (Natural Horn) - Hob 07d 03 Concerto #1 in D for Horn 3rd mvmt - Allegro

The first act of Figaro is indeed a marvelous design. There is comedy, like you say, and action! Like how the opera begins after the overture, with the great first duet and Figaro measuring a space for the bed...brilliant!

And I love how the arias and ensembles don't generally have much of an instrumental introduction, only a few bars or two and the singing starts (like how Symphony no.40 in g minor begins).

BUT suddenly Act II begins, and the music is reflective, with the warm tone of clarinets, and we hear an extended introduction like we haven't heard in the opera, and immediately we are in the emotional world of the Countess, a world rich in reflectivity and sadness. Suddenly, the drama unfolds from an interior place, the inner subjective world of the Countess and her sadness. But the beginning of Act II wouldn't work without the brilliant set up of Act I.  :D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2011, 09:49:04 AM
Ah good! At last, opera has made its way through this thread! Excellent!  8)

Here are some niceties to explore.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MmAWM%2B1SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Premiered during the 1796 Carnival in Venice this farsetta per musica in two acts has everything a Classical-era fan can hope for: a libretto by Carlo Goldoni, charm, wit and an uninterrupted flow of gorgeous tunes.  8)

[asin]B0019ZF3KC[/asin]

This opera-ballet (a typically French genre) was first performed in 1783 and illustrates the "Turcophile"and "exotic" fashion of its time. It was performed more than 500 times --- this alone should raise your interest.  :)

[asin]B00005YVZU[/asin]

Cherubini's most succesful opera was premiered in 1800. It should be of special interest to Gurn not only because it greatly influenced Beethoven when composing "Fidelio" but also because one can hear in a certain number a melodic line which clearly anticipates... but hush! I'm not going to disclose it.  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 09:55:21 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 09:46:52 AM
The first act of Figaro is indeed a marvelous design. There is comedy, like you say, and action! Like how the opera begins after the overture, with the great first duet and Figaro measuring a space for the bed...brilliant!

And I love how the arias and ensembles don't generally have much of an instrumental introduction, only a few bars or two and the singing starts (like how Symphony no.40 in g minor begins).

BUT suddenly Act II begins, and the music is reflective, with the warm tone of clarinets, and we hear an extended introduction like we haven't heard in the opera, and immediately we are in the emotional world of the Countess, a world rich in reflectivity and sadness. Suddenly, the drama unfolds from an interior place, the inner subjective world of the Countess and her sadness. But the beginning of Act II wouldn't work without the brilliant set up of Act I.  :D

No, no, you are quite right. It is like a different world after the Countess (The Main Character, IMO) shows up. Such beautiful music he wrote for her. Mozart loved his women, no doubt. It seems like the best music in every opera is reserved for them. Like Fiordiligi in Cosi fan tutte.  Some of the loveliest music ever written (and I don't even go to threads abut that stuff...  :P ). :)

8)

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Now playing:
Yuko Wataya (Cembalo & Clavier) - Hob 16 01 Sonata #10 in C for Clavichord 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2011, 10:00:22 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 09:55:21 AM
Mozart loved his women, no doubt. It seems like the best music in every opera is reserved for them.

Yesss. Like that little gem of Don Giovanni, Batti, batti o bel Masetto. Never fails to send shivers on my spine every time I hear it.

Not to mention Non so piu.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 10:00:34 AM
Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on April 24, 2011, 09:49:04 AM
Ah good! At last, opera has made its way through this thread! Excellent!  8)

Here are some niceties to explore.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MmAWM%2B1SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Premiered during the 1796 Carnival in Venice this farsetta per musica in two acts has everything a Classical-era fan can hope for: a libretto by Carlo Goldoni, charm, wit and an uninterrupted flow of gorgeous tunes.  8)

[asin]B0019ZF3KC[/asin]

This opera-ballet (a typically French genre) was first performed in 1783 and illustrates the "Turcophile"and "exotic" fashion of its time. It was performed more than 500 times --- this alone should raise your interest.  :)

[asin]B00005YVZU[/asin]

Cherubini's most succesful opera was premiered in 1800. It should be of special interest to Gurn not only because it greatly influenced Beethoven when composing "Fidelio" but also because one can hear in a certain number a melodic line which clearly anticipates... but hush! I'm not going to disclose it.  ;D

These are right up my alley, but I haven't heard a note. Thanks for the recommends sir!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 10:01:29 AM
Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on April 24, 2011, 09:49:04 AM
Ah good! At last, opera has made its way through this thread! Excellent!  8)

Here are some niceties to explore.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MmAWM%2B1SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Premiered during the 1796 Carnival in Venice this farsetta per musica in two acts has everything a Classical-era fan can hope for: a libretto by Carlo Goldoni, charm, wit and an uninterrupted flow of gorgeous tunes.  8)

[asin]B0019ZF3KC[/asin]

This opera-ballet (a typically French genre) was first performed in 1783 and illustrates the "Turcophile"and "exotic" fashion of its time. It was performed more than 500 times --- this alone should raise your interest.  :)

[asin]B00005YVZU[/asin]

Cherubini's most succesful opera was premiered in 1800. It should be of special interest to Gurn not only because it greatly influenced Beethoven when composing "Fidelio" but also because one can hear in a certain number a melodic line which clearly anticipates... but hush! I'm not going to disclose it.  ;D

Ah, they were poised, waiting in the wings for the majick word "opera"!   :D

That Spontini opera must have been from very early on in his career, since what I have read of him all seems to be centered after Beethoven's passing. You're right about Goldoni, he is well more to my taste than Metastasio is. Opera seria is more than I can handle yet. But Haydn did 3 of his libretti and in particular Il mondo della Luna (The World on the Moon) is hilarious.

Clearly some things to look into here, thanks for the pointers. :)

8)


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Now playing:
Yuko Wataya (Cembalo & Clavier) - Hob 16 01 Sonata #10 in C for Clavichord 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2011, 10:02:02 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 10:00:34 AM
These are right up my alley, but I haven't heard a note. Thanks for the recommends sir!

8)

Most welcome signor Leo!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 10:03:37 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 09:55:21 AM
No, no, you are quite right. It is like a different world after the Countess (The Main Character, IMO) shows up. Such beautiful music he wrote for her. Mozart loved his women, no doubt. It seems like the best music in every opera is reserved for them. Like Fiordiligi in Cosi fan tutte.  Some of the loveliest music ever written (and I don't even go to threads abut that stuff...  :P ). :)

8)

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Now playing:
Yuko Wataya (Cembalo & Clavier) - Hob 16 01 Sonata #10 in C for Clavichord 2nd mvmt - Adagio

I totally agree. It does appear he saved the loveliest music for his women...great choice!  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on April 24, 2011, 10:00:22 AM
Yesss. Like that little gem of Don Giovanni, Batti, batti o bel Masetto. Never fails to send shivers on my spine every time I hear it.

Not to mention Non so piu.  ;D

Yes, fine examples too. If it wasn't for Mozart, I would have never been able to get over the hump into appreciating, even liking, opera. So I owe him a lot too, like Leo. :)

8)



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Now playing:
Yuko Wataya (Cembalo & Clavier) - Hob 16 01 Sonata #10 in C for Clavichord 3rd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2011, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 10:01:29 AM
That Spontini opera must have been from very early on in his career,

AFAIK it's the earliest of his operas, but this doesn't prevent it  from being a sheer deight from the beginning to the end.

Quote
since what I have read of him all seems to be centered after Beethoven's passing.

Well, his universally acclaimed masterpiece, La vestale, was premiered in 1807 and its praises have been sung, decades later, by none other than Richard Wagner.  :)

Quote
Clearly some things to look into here, thanks for the pointers. :)

Always my pleasure, Gurn.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2011, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 10:04:37 AM
Yes, fine examples too. If it wasn't for Mozart, I would have never been able to get over the hump into appreciating, even liking, opera. So I owe him a lot too, like Leo. :)

For me opera was love at first sight... with the dangerous mademoiselle Carmen no less.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on April 24, 2011, 10:10:37 AM
For me opera was love at first sight... with the dangerous mademoiselle Carmen no less.  :D

Ah, I love Carmen!. If only all operas were this engaging. Well, some others are, and that's what makes them eternal. But no, it wasn't "at first sight" for me; it took me 2 years to work up the nerve to play my ...Figaro set for the first time. Better now, though. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Yuko Wataya (Cembalo & Clavier) - Hob 16 02 Sonata #11 in Bb for Clavichord 2nd mvmt - Largo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 10:20:46 AM
Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on April 24, 2011, 10:08:07 AM
AFAIK it's the earliest of his operas, but this doesn't prevent it  from being a sheer deight from the beginning to the end.

Well, his universally acclaimed masterpiece, La vestale, was premiered in 1807 and its praises have been sung, decades later, by none other than Richard Wagner.  :)

Yes, but my acquaintance with him is through his directorship of the Berlin Opera from 1820 to <>1840. Among other things he was a scourge for Mendelssohn and an 'anti' with Beethoven's 9th. He was a well-known and sometimes controversial figure in that role. I only knew about his operas peripherally. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Yuko Wataya (Cembalo & Clavier) - Hob 16 02 Sonata #11 in Bb for Clavichord 3rd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 24, 2011, 12:58:42 PM
My Easter listening continues!

Wow, an incredible disk here:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51r-lC62EOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I like what Gabriel wrote earlier in this thread on this composer/Prince. I quote it below:

Quote from: Gabriel on February 18, 2010, 09:07:50 AM
I must write a couple of lines about Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (1772-1806), whose works have been seldom commented in GMG. Incredibly beautiful music that has been incredibly ignored by most specialists and amateurs during two centuries.

Perhaps Prince Louis Ferdinand didn't concentrate all his efforts to composition, his works being relatively scarce, but I have purchased the three CDs of his chamber music recorded by the Trio Parnassus, and they show nothing less than music at the highest level of that time - so standing beside the best chamber music of Beethoven, Hummel, Rejcha, Spohr or Schubert. I don't know what is more worthy of praise in his works: the beautiful melodic ideas, the impressive harmonic command, or the beauty of the sound of the ensemble, including piano parts that are among the most beautiful of that time. Perhaps his interest in counterpoint was not the one shown by Beethoven, Rejcha or Cherubini, but on the other hand there are modulations that sound like Schumann or Chopin. These chamber works are really a treasure, and in my opinion they should be known and enjoyed by all people interested in the music of late classicism.

Changing briefly the subject towards another composer, I said some time ago I would write some lines on the wind quintets of Franz Danzi, as I had bought the set of three CDs released by BIS some years ago. I was not particularly impressed, these works seeming to me clearly less interesting than the quintets written by Rejcha.


Also, I am entranced by the music and sound of these works by Kozeluch:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61nlEVTugqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 24, 2011, 04:15:21 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 24, 2011, 12:58:42 PM
My Easter listening continues!

Wow, an incredible disk here:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51r-lC62EOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I like what Gabriel wrote earlier in this thread on this composer/Prince. I quote it below:

Leo, Gurn, et al - BOY! I've been busy all day doing a woodworking project w/ one of my radiology residents - just helping him out on a large bookcase (I have the tools & experience & he's a beginner - BTW, felt like a second son!) - at any rate, returned to this thread and at least 2 pages have past!  :o

But I own & enjoy (and recommend) the disc on the PRINCE - I've not read the liner notes in a while, so won't make more definite comments - but certainly worth a listen and possibly a purchase - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 10:06:27 AM
Wow. Haydn's Sonata in C Major H.XVI:48 is just so amazing! (Listening to Staier's performance on the way to work this morning)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 10:09:11 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 24, 2011, 04:15:21 PM
Leo, Gurn, et al - BOY! I've been busy all day doing a woodworking project w/ one of my radiology residents - just helping him out on a large bookcase

Funny, I work in Radiology too! But I am a clerk, not a tech or a radiologist, though  ;D I wondered about your Avatar!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2011, 10:52:16 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 25, 2011, 10:06:27 AM
Wow. Haydn's Sonata in C Major H.XVI:48 is just so amazing! (Listening to Staier's performance on the way to work this morning)

How about that presto 2nd movement! It's a finger breaker, no doubt. It is a great example of a fortepiano advantage over modern piano. What rolls right off the fingers on that instruments has to be killer to play on a Steinway!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 12:29:09 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 25, 2011, 10:52:16 AM
How about that presto 2nd movement! It's a finger breaker, no doubt. It is a great example of a fortepiano advantage over modern piano. What rolls right off the fingers on that instruments has to be killer to play on a Steinway!  :)

8)

I bet it is!

I remember the first time I heard a fortepiano, on the Hogwood/Levin Beethoven piano concertos set. Those are beautiful recordings of those works, still my top choice as a complete set. The sound of the fortepiano was intriguing to say the least. The revelation was the sound of the 4th Concerto, and how the fortepiano sounded with the orchestra. I suddenly heard a work I haven't really heard before. The exquisite sound was breathtaking.

I then bought some of the Melvin Tan/Norrington Beethoven piano concertos when they were released as individual disks. Although the sonics weren't as good, I thought the 4th Concerto sounded more evocative of Beethoven's time, and I'm not sure why! But I prefer the Tan/Norrington 4th Piano Concerto a little more, despite the fortepiano being a little too far back in the mix  8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gUonrbuJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51z0%2BsSn--L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 12:40:56 PM
Another Haydn sonata that is hitting me hard, again, from the Staier performance, is the Sonata In E Flat Major, Hob Xvi/49 ...the second movement, and the amazing middle section there! The sound of the fortepiano in the loud chords in the lower register of the instrument, it's just profound!  :o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 01:15:53 PM
A friend of mine is burning me a copy of this, and I'm real excited to hear it:

(http://www.teknon.nl/CD3-Muthel.jpg)

Does anyone have this and what are their thoughts? Among hearing this composer for the first time, I'm looking forward to my first clavichord recording! ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2011, 01:22:17 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 25, 2011, 01:15:53 PM
A friend of mine is burning me a copy of this, and I'm real excited to hear it:

(http://www.teknon.nl/CD3-Muthel.jpg)

Does anyone have this and what are their thoughts? Among hearing this composer for the first time, I'm looking forward to my first clavichord recording! ;)

Oh, you're gonna like that. I think Sonic Dave has that too, and also Que and Antoine. We like odd stuff... :D  Seriously, if this is your first go at a clavichord, do it right. The instrument is, by its nature, very quiet. Leave your player at normal volume, don't crank it up to compensate. You sort of have to let your mind switch over and accept it at lower volume. As for the music, I found it very entertaining. Especially the 2nd disk, which is like fantasias (he called them something else, IIRC, but they are fantasias). I liked those a lot. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 25, 2011, 01:22:17 PM
Oh, you're gonna like that. I think Sonic Dave has that too, and also Que and Antoine. We like odd stuff... :D  Seriously, if this is your first go at a clavichord, do it right. The instrument is, by its nature, very quiet. Leave your player at normal volume, don't crank it up to compensate. You sort of have to let your mind switch over and accept it at lower volume. As for the music, I found it very entertaining. Especially the 2nd disk, which is like fantasias (he called them something else, IIRC, but they are fantasias). I liked those a lot. :)

8)

Great! I'm glad to hear your thoughts, and glad to hear it's a good recording of music and clavichord  8) I'll listen to how you suggest, with the volume at normal setting. This will be my chill-out disk after work tonight.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 02:58:48 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 25, 2011, 12:29:09 PM
I bet it is!

I remember the first time I heard a fortepiano, on the Hogwood/Levin Beethoven piano concertos set. Those are beautiful recordings of those works, still my top choice as a complete set. The sound of the fortepiano was intriguing to say the least. The revelation was the sound of the 4th Concerto, and how the fortepiano sounded with the orchestra. I suddenly heard a work I haven't really heard before. The exquisite sound was breathtaking.

I then bought some of the Melvin Tan/Norrington Beethoven piano concertos when they were released as individual disks. Although the sonics weren't as good, I thought the 4th Concerto sounded more evocative of Beethoven's time, and I'm not sure why! But I prefer the Tan/Norrington 4th Piano Concerto a little more, despite the fortepiano being a little too far back in the mix  8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gUonrbuJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Another thought, that comes from listening to Tan's and Norrington's performance of Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto.

Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto has such a soothing pastoral quality.  The music is soft, gentle...it questions in a state of surrender.  The main theme evokes the 5th symphony, turns the motto of the 5th inside out towards a quieter reflection.  This piano concerto doesn't feel like a journey towards a goal.  The still-life meditation of the middle movement (strings and piano only) seems surrounded by Vienna itself, as heard in the allegro movements (subjectively how I hear it).  The short central movement is the heart of the concerto.  The music is almost operatic, proceeding like a recitative, except we never hear the aria that usually follows the recitative.  A radio program once compared this middle movement with Ives' Unanswered Question and it was very interesting to hear a comparison of these two works. As in Ives's Unanswered Question, the strings never answer the piano's interior questions, rather the answer is hidden by the question itself.

8)

My oh my, do I love this work!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2011, 03:19:33 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 25, 2011, 10:09:11 AM
Funny, I work in Radiology too! But I am a clerk, not a tech or a radiologist, though  ;D I wondered about your Avatar!

Hi Leo - good observation of the avatar!   ;D  Yep, I'm a Professor of Radiology (becoming an Emeritus at the end of this June - more time to listen to music!) in the Abdominal Section of the Department of Radiology at Wake Forest University Medical Ctr (big department, 50+ MD faculty, 40 residents, & about 20 fellows, not to mention all of the techs, PhDs, Masters, and so many others!) - I've done primarily GI, GU, and abdominal US (hence another log in name for me & my license plate, GIRADMAN)  :D

Gurn & Leo - that Muthel recording w/ van Delft on clavichord has been on my 'wish list' for months - have not located a copy at the price I wanted to pay but will continue to look! Now the Muthel that I do own is shown below (the 2-disc MDG release is excellent, BTW!) - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cfsuas-sL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61HVLgtsOML._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 03:33:34 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2011, 03:19:33 PM
Hi Leo - good observation of the avatar!   ;D  Yep, I'm a Professor of Radiology (becoming an Emeritus at the end of this June - more time to listen to music!) in the Abdominal Section of the Department of Radiology at Wake Forest University Medical Ctr (big department, 50+ MD faculty, 40 residents, & about 20 fellows, not to mention all of the techs, PhDs, Masters, and so many others!) - I've done primarily GI, GU, and abdominal US (hence another log in name for me & my license plate, GIRADMAN)  :D

Gurn & Leo - that Muthel recording w/ van Delft on clavichord has been on my 'wish list' for months - have not located a copy at the price I wanted to pay but will continue to look! Now the Muthel that I do own is shown below (the 2-disc MDG release is excellent, BTW!) - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cfsuas-sL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61HVLgtsOML._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

That is awesome to hear man! I also help the Ultrasound techs in my job. I'm the "go-to guy" for problems relating with dictation, reports, or image problems in our software  :)

Speaking of Beethoven, this is my favorite recording of this work. I don't believe this is the greatest recording of the 5th for all time, but it's my own personal favorite  :-*

(http://ca.sacdstatic.com/l/51/5351/6095351.jpg)

Personally, I have always been entranced by the epic second movement in this recording, a music suggesting wandering in a grand landscape.  A military sounding fanfare interrupts the flow during the course of the argument, a foreshadowing of the triumph in the finale.  The introspective woodwinds are a total contrast to the extrovert brass and timpani, a questioning over all that has appeared before, or perhaps resignation, and the soft wandering of the quieter sections foreshadows the pastoral pastures of the 6th symphony. 

I wish I could accurately put into words the Maazel/VPO sound...which is almost empty or "isolated" in tone...I often envision an individual alone in a sunlit landscape, like a landscape by Salvador Dali.  Another word that comes to mind is "un-relational".  The drama is always forstalled by a drop in energy or excitement...maybe "depression"...yet when the power, or energy is called back into being, the performance as a whole feels overwhelming and gigantic...even spiritual...but the performance never rests but keeps searching, or wandering.  The performance is more philosophical than dramatic.

I listened to this record on cassette back in the day, with this cover:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/214K8SVZVAL._AA130_.jpg)
(the cover with the "Jawa" on it)

...this has been my favorite Beethoven 5th for over 20 years  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on April 25, 2011, 07:14:09 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 25, 2011, 01:15:53 PM
A friend of mine is burning me a copy of this, and I'm real excited to hear it:

(http://www.teknon.nl/CD3-Muthel.jpg)

Does anyone have this and what are their thoughts? Among hearing this composer for the first time, I'm looking forward to my first clavichord recording! ;)

Leo, below a previous comment I made on the set. It's my favourite clavichord recording sofar. I quite like the music: quirky and expressive. If you do so as well, try Georg (Jiri) Benda's sonatas (Box set by Sylvia Georgieva (harpsichord) on Praga would be my rec.)


Quote from: Que on May 01, 2010, 08:03:33 AM
Very nice, and it grows on me. Written in the "transitional" style, akin to Georg Benda & CPE Bach. Müthel's style is particularly willful, and I like that. The combination of the rather timid nature of the clavichord with such impulsive music, is an interesting touch in this respect. Van Delft gives it his best: propulsive and expressive. Another bonus: the clavichord is a notoriously difficult instrument to record, but that is a succes here.

Samples HERE (http://www.teknon.nl/cd-label.html).

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 26, 2011, 09:11:54 AM
Quote from: Que on April 25, 2011, 07:14:09 PM
Leo, below a previous comment I made on the set. It's my favourite clavichord recording sofar. I quite like the music: quirky and expressive. If you do so as well, try Georg (Jiri) Benda's sonatas (Box set by Sylvia Georgieva (harpsichord) on Praga would be my rec.)

Thanks for your comments Que!

I had a listen to this clavichord recording last night, and this morning, and I'm LOVING it.  :o The timbre is so organic, so textured, and the music has a wonderful, like you say, "willful" and quirkiness that is engaging, and also, beautiful stretches of calm and atmosphere. I'm very happy to add this to my collection.

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 26, 2011, 02:48:34 PM
Has anyone heard Reicha's fugues for piano? Thoughts? It looks very intriging, and the recording below uses a fortepiano  ;)

(http://classicdisc.de/joomla15/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Rejcha__A.__36_F_4aca1bec541bc.jpg)

After hearing a Rejcha mass, I'm very interested in hearing his keyboard music.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lethevich on April 26, 2011, 03:22:39 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 26, 2011, 02:48:34 PM
Has anyone heard Reicha's fugues for piano? Thoughts? It looks very intriging, and the recording below uses a fortepiano  ;)

(http://classicdisc.de/joomla15/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Rejcha__A.__36_F_4aca1bec541bc.jpg)

After hearing a Rejcha mass, I'm very interested in hearing his keyboard music.

That collection alone makes Reicha one of the most important classical period keyboardists IMO - it's surprisingly complex and so inventive :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 26, 2011, 06:09:42 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 26, 2011, 02:48:34 PM
Has anyone heard Reicha's fugues for piano? Thoughts? It looks very intriging, and the recording below uses a fortepiano  ;)

(http://classicdisc.de/joomla15/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Rejcha__A.__36_F_4aca1bec541bc.jpg)

After hearing a Rejcha mass, I'm very interested in hearing his keyboard music.


Leo - I have a nice collection of Anton Reicha but most are his 'wind' compositions w/ an orchestral disc; I've seen the disc above and have other recordings w/ Tuma - so would be quite interested in this offering, esp. after Sara's comments - BUT, seems unavailable on Amazon USA - so for those who own or are searching for this recording, where is it offered?  Thanks - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 26, 2011, 06:21:05 PM
I have my eye on that Mozart Kuijken/Devos set on jpc.de because even with the shipping it's still a bargain.

So are there any other classical era recordings I should look out for on jpc.de to make the most out of the shipping?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2011, 04:21:07 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 26, 2011, 06:09:42 PM
Leo - I have a nice collection of Anton Reicha but most are his 'wind' compositions w/ an orchestral disc; I've seen the disc above and have other recordings w/ Tuma - so would be quite interested in this offering, esp. after Sara's comments - BUT, seems unavailable on Amazon USA - so for those who own or are searching for this recording, where is it offered?  Thanks - Dave  :D

Gabriel also gave this a rave review, back in the day. if one were to thumb back 100 or 200 pages there it is. At that time it wasn't locatable either, although I seem to recall that one could get it at the manufacturer's web site. In Czech Republic... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2011, 04:24:07 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 26, 2011, 06:21:05 PM
I have my eye on that Mozart Kuijken/Devos set on jpc.de because even with the shipping it's still a bargain.

So are there any other classical era recordings I should look out for on jpc.de to make the most out of the shipping?

I don't personally know right this minute, hf, but they frequently have sales that make s&h insignificant. That very disk set, for example. And Brüggen's Haydn set for peanuts, or Immerseel's Beethoven set. for $20. Just have to be in the right place at the right time. Not enough people read this thread to give you full advantage of the latest news. You mght try posting this in the "Recordings you are considering" thread, That seems to get this info out in front of the most people. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2011, 04:37:22 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 27, 2011, 04:21:07 AM
Gabriel also gave this a rave review, back in the day. if one were to thumb back 100 or 200 pages there it is. At that time it wasn't locatable either, although I seem to recall that one could get it at the manufacturer's web site. In Czech Republic... :-\

I bought my own set directly on Arta Records (http://www.arta.cz/), not just a manufacturer, but a proper (and excellent) music label. I bought several discs (principally Bach by Jaroslav Tuma) and the price was excellent (very, very cheap). They used a secure server (I paid with credit card) and had an excellent customer service.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2011, 04:44:58 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2011, 04:37:22 AM
I bought my own set directly on Arta Records (http://www.arta.cz/), not just a manufacturer, but a proper (and excellent) music label. I bought several discs (principally Bach by Jaroslav Tuma) and the price was excellent (very, very cheap). They used a secure server (I paid with credit card) and had an excellent customer service.

Excellent news, Antoine. Unfortunately my poor memory doesn't extend back that far beyond mere essentials. :D  Tuma has a couple of other recordings I am interested in too, so maybe this is a chance to kill several birds.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 27, 2011, 05:37:26 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 27, 2011, 04:24:07 AM
I don't personally know right this minute, hf, but they frequently have sales that make s&h insignificant. That very disk set, for example. And Brüggen's Haydn set for peanuts, or Immerseel's Beethoven set. for $20. Just have to be in the right place at the right time. Not enough people read this thread to give you full advantage of the latest news. You mght try posting this in the "Recordings you are considering" thread, That seems to get this info out in front of the most people. :)

8)

Alright, will do.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 27, 2011, 07:05:08 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2011, 04:37:22 AM
I bought my own set directly on Arta Records (http://www.arta.cz/), not just a manufacturer, but a proper (and excellent) music label. I bought several discs (principally Bach by Jaroslav Tuma) and the price was excellent (very, very cheap). They used a secure server (I paid with credit card) and had an excellent customer service.

Yes, I've been to that site a number of times and debated on a purchase of the 2-CD set of Reicha's keyboard works - maybe I should select a few more?

I have made previous purchases there of Tuma's recordings and agree that the site is perfectly safe - recordings shown below:  Bach WTC, Bach Goldberg Variations, and Bach Inventions & Sinfonias, the first 2 sets as CDs and the third as a MP3 download; all w/ Tuma on clavichord (the Goldbergs contain 2 discs; the other w/ Tuma on a harpsichord).   For the CDs (which were 6 total), the shipping to me in the USA was 220 Czech Koruna ($13.36 at today's conversion rate, so about $2 extra/disc).  Dave  :)

(http://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10165.jpg)  (http://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10136.jpg)  (http://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10076.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2011, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 27, 2011, 07:05:08 AM
(http://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10165.jpg)  (http://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10136.jpg)  (http://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10076.jpg)

All of those discs are excellent, dear "46"!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 27, 2011, 11:00:57 AM
Wow! This is a really fantastic CD  8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5167P9R7SHL._SS500_.jpg)

A new composer to my ears, Christoph Schaffrath (1709 - 1763) but absolutely amazing music. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Schaffrath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Schaffrath)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2011, 11:19:15 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 27, 2011, 11:00:57 AM
Wow! This is a really fantastic CD  8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5167P9R7SHL._SS500_.jpg)

A new composer to my ears, Christoph Schaffrath (1709 - 1763) but absolutely amazing music. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Schaffrath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Schaffrath)

Yes, he would be new to me. I have read about him, but not heard his music yet. I am supposing him to be one of that legion; Early Classical.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2011, 11:19:55 AM
In 200 years, Henning can creep into this Corner! ; )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2011, 11:21:34 AM
Quote from: Apollon on April 27, 2011, 11:19:55 AM
In 200 years, Henning can creep into this Corner! ; )

And by then, we'll probably be proud to have him... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 27, 2011, 11:47:14 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 27, 2011, 11:19:15 AM
Yes, he would be new to me. I have read about him, but not heard his music yet. I am supposing him to be one of that legion; Early Classical.   :)

8)

Yup. In that wonderful land between Baroque and Classical  ;D A little galant-like, and still sounds a little Baroque too!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2011, 11:55:08 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 27, 2011, 11:47:14 AM
Yup. In that wonderful land between Baroque and Classical  ;D A little galant-like, and still sounds a little Baroque too!

Ah, like Vivaldi! early CPE Bach.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 27, 2011, 03:47:46 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 27, 2011, 11:00:57 AM
Wow! This is a really fantastic CD  8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5167P9R7SHL._SS500_.jpg)

A new composer to my ears, Christoph Schaffrath (1709 - 1763) but absolutely amazing music. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Schaffrath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Schaffrath)

Hi Leo - I've had and have enjoyed that disc above for a while - Epoca Barocca is just an excellent group and I own other discs w/ them performing, so likely a combination thrill of the music & the group; amazingly I have not checked out other music by this composer, so will be curious about the comments of others -  :)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2011, 07:13:51 AM
All of those discs are excellent, dear "46"!  :)

Hey Antoine - yep, added a '46' - been getting bumped out of the forum - assume some A$$HOLE running password scripts on my screen name - will give this a try for a while - not a big issue; if that does not work then I'll need to change my sign-in name according to Rob's thread - irritating if one is composing a longish post!  Dave  :-\
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 28, 2011, 06:23:01 AM
There is nothing like the sound of Haydn, HIP style :)

I've Been listening to Bruggen's Haydn set of the London Symphonies and I'm so blown away. I'm used to the Fischer set, so what a refreshing experience of Haydn to hear Bruggen's take! 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 06:45:36 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 28, 2011, 06:23:01 AM
There is nothing like the sound of Haydn, HIP style :)

I've Been listening to Bruggen's Haydn set of the London Symphonies and I'm so blown away. I'm used to the Fischer set, so what a refreshing experience of Haydn to hear Bruggen's take! 8)

Yup, very different. On MI I prefer Fischer to all the old dead guys, but these works really want the tonal color of PI. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 28, 2011, 07:22:13 AM
This was released quite recently. I'm a fan of Rolla and will almost certainly pick it up at some point, but I wonder if anyone here has heard it?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41lmiIDo3VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 07:53:38 AM
Quote from: Leon on April 28, 2011, 07:19:59 AM
Seems to me I remember that there was a set of Haydn symphonies recorded in the room at Esterháza where they most likely were performed during Haydn's time.  Am I getting them mixed up with some keyboard concertos?  I do remember something recorded there.  :)

I could use some help dusting off my nearly 60 year old brain?

Yeah, the Fischer cycle was recorded in Esterhazy. Nice sound (after they got it perfected). But he does use a larger than actual orchestra and modern instruments. I like the cycle, but I prefer period instruments and smallish ensembles and all that goes with that. Just me. I will be 60 in a few months too. Together we can help each other through this. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 07:55:20 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 28, 2011, 07:22:13 AM
This was released quite recently. I'm a fan of Rolla and will almost certainly pick it up at some point, but I wonder if anyone here has heard it?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41lmiIDo3VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have 3 or 4 Rolla disks, but not that one. It is good music, I would personally have a go with that disk, I think you will be pleased. As always though, let me know if it sucks.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 28, 2011, 08:03:41 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 28, 2011, 07:53:38 AM
I will be 60 in a few months too.

Gurn's been saying that for the past several years. ;)

Nobody on this forum ever got around to listening to the Davies set right?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 28, 2011, 08:07:42 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 28, 2011, 07:55:20 AM
I have 3 or 4 Rolla disks, but not that one. It is good music, I would personally have a go with that disk, I think you will be pleased. As always though, let me know if it sucks.... :D

8)

I'll take that as an unconditional endorsement, and if it sucks I'll send Steve Martin the bill. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 08:16:26 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 28, 2011, 08:03:41 AM
Gurn's been saying that for the past several years. ;)

Nobody on this forum ever got around to listening to the Davies set right?

I'm on a Haydn list and it got less than stellar reviews over there. As in very spotty, some excellent efforts and some real bombs. I don't need another MI cycle so I won't be the guinea pig on this one. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 08:17:01 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 28, 2011, 08:07:42 AM
I'll take that as an unconditional endorsement, and if it sucks I'll send Steve Martin the bill. :)

Send it c/o 'Fred's Bank'.   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 28, 2011, 10:42:27 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 24, 2010, 07:56:44 AM
Witt, Friedrich (1770-1836) - yet another apparently 'lost composer' from the classical transitional era; same birth year as Beethoven; extremely short Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Witt); an unknown to me until acquiring the disc below from BRO; the usual MDG quality - unexpectedly excellent review (10/10 rating) by David Hurwitz reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=102365)!

Not much more available at Amazon on disc w/ his name as the only composer; the music on this recording is well captured w/ superb sound - the Flute Concerto is worth the price of admission.  Symphony No. 6, Sinfonie Turque is a lot of fun w/ Turkish sounds/moods throughout.  Apparently, Witt wrote 27 Symphonies w/ the last 9 being published as Symphonies 1-9, according to the liner notes; he likely wrote much other instrumental (including chamber works) music, which has been at least 'unrecorded' or lost?   :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/WittSymph69/844566649_fkGeD-O.jpg)

I'm going to be giving this a try in the very near future  8)

Meanwhile, I'm still listening to Reicha, Schaffrath, and Haydn (Gardiner's recording of "Six Great Masses" and Bruggen's Haydn).  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 28, 2011, 03:30:37 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wbrK3X7wL._SS500_.jpg)

It sure is nice hearing Haydn's masses again! What a great set this is  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 04:16:43 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 28, 2011, 03:30:37 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wbrK3X7wL._SS500_.jpg)

It sure is nice hearing Haydn's masses again! What a great set this is  8)

I agree, I like those performances too. They have an odd position for me though; the period instruments and the singing are all very good, but in my head I feel that in order to be "authentic" (damn, what an awful word that is) they just shouldn't sound like they were being done at St. Stephen's in Vienna instead of the Martinkirche in Eisenstadt, which IS where they were played. But as simply performance of masses with no thoughts like that in my head at all, I think they are excellent!   :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Boston SO \ Munch  - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 05:49:44 PM
Just sitting down tonight with a new acquisition, Volume 5 of the Complete Fortepiano Sonatas of Muzio Clementi, performed by Constantino Mastroprimiano.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Clementi5cover.jpg)

3 disks, like each of the first 4 volumes. Starting with Op 34 (2 sonatas followed by 2 capriccios), we are now moving into the realm of the mature Clementi, who was a true master of the pianoforte by any standard. I'm really liking this, and recommending without hesitation. Oh wait, I hesitate; the last 3 volumes haven't been available in the States. I've gotten them from MDT in England (mdt.co.uk ) and have been delighted with both their price and their service. They are my 'go-to' guys when I have to buy from Europe. Anyway, I will be delighted to have this entire set, but am already very pleased with what I have in hand. :)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Constantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 34 #1 Sonata in C 1st mvmt - Allegro con spirito
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 28, 2011, 06:06:12 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 28, 2011, 04:16:43 PM
I agree, I like those performances too. They have an odd position for me though; the period instruments and the singing are all very good, but in my head I feel that in order to be "authentic" (damn, what an awful word that is) they just shouldn't sound like they were being done at St. Stephen's in Vienna instead of the Martinkirche in Eisenstadt, which IS where they were played. But as simply performance of masses with no thoughts like that in my head at all, I think they are excellent!   :)

Now Gurn - you're starting to go 'overboard' here about 'authentic' performances!  ;) ;D   I also own those Haydn Masses and am perfectly happy w/ their performances and sound - recommended IMHO -  :)

I'm just up to Vol. 4 of the Clementi performances w/ M. on the fortepiano - guess that I need to add this 5th volume to my wish list - Dave  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 06:12:22 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 28, 2011, 06:06:12 PM
Now Gurn - you're starting to go 'overboard' here about 'authentic' performances!  ;) ;D   I also own those Haydn Masses and am perfectly happy w/ their performances and sound - recommended IMHO -  :)

I'm just up to Vol. 4 of the Clementi performances w/ M. on the fortepiano - guess that I need to add this 5th volume to my wish list - Dave  8)

No, no, Dave, I am not condemning them. That would be overboard!  I like 'em too, I just have some reservations about wholeheartedly loving them. You know, some things are so ingrained after a while that you can't shake it off. One's prejudices become the person. :(

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Constantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 34 #2 Sonata in G 2nd mvmt - Un poco adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2011, 06:13:31 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 28, 2011, 06:06:12 PM
I'm just up to Vol. 4 of the Clementi performances w/ M. on the fortepiano - guess that I need to add this 5th volume to my wish list - Dave  8)

You're gonna like 'em. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Constantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi Op 34 #2 Sonata in G 2nd mvmt - Un poco adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 29, 2011, 07:56:38 AM
Thanks for the heads up Gurn, regarding the Clementi set, I didn't know that was out there! I have one Clementi disk, Vol.2 of Howard Shelley's series, and I like it a lot, only it would be great to collect the fortepiano sets you speak about :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 29, 2011, 11:02:39 AM
I found another gem I love-- this short little piece of Haydn's is a motet called Insanae et Vanae Curae, and it's a gorgeous heart felt piece.  Anyone else like it? :)  I'm going to have to see if I can find the history behind it in the liner notes.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 29, 2011, 11:15:34 AM
I'm getting ready to make my purchase for May. These are the items I have decided on and placed in my cart.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MPzyLNWRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sT8tZWh8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I was going to also get a Czerny disk of Sonatas, but my budget will only allow for the two above. The Czerny will have to wait a month, but I am really excited to listen to these sonatas! I've been waiting a month to get these, and the time is very near  8)


8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 29, 2011, 11:27:07 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 28, 2011, 04:16:43 PM
I agree, I like those performances too. They have an odd position for me though; the period instruments and the singing are all very good, but in my head I feel that in order to be "authentic" (damn, what an awful word that is) they just shouldn't sound like they were being done at St. Stephen's in Vienna instead of the Martinkirche in Eisenstadt, which IS where they were played. But as simply performance of masses with no thoughts like that in my head at all, I think they are excellent!   :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Boston SO \ Munch  - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

That would be fascinating to hear a recording made in the Martinkirche in Eisenstadt. I'm all for that!

But yeah, this set is better than I remembered, as a matter of fact, I was totally blown away by listening yesterday, and totally enveloped in the music with the tangible organic quality of the period instruments. The singing is quite inspired too.

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2011, 11:30:08 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on April 29, 2011, 11:02:39 AM
I found another gem I love-- this short little piece of Haydn's is a motet called Insanae et Vanae Curae, and it's a gorgeous heart felt piece.  Anyone else like it? :)  I'm going to have to see if I can find the history behind it in the liner notes.

Yeah, that's a little motet from <>1795 or so. Was never much of a motet hand, but I liked that one. If it's 1795 it was probably related to London in some way, but if it's later, then Vienna. I'll look when I get home, I think I have a nice little writeup on it. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2011, 11:31:21 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 29, 2011, 11:15:34 AM
I'm getting ready to make my purchase for May. These are the items I have decided on and placed in my cart.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MPzyLNWRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sT8tZWh8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I was going to also get a Czerny disk of Sonatas, but my budget will only allow for the two above. The Czerny will have to wait a month, but I am really excited to listen to these sonatas! I've been waiting a month to get these, and the time is very near  8)


8)

I really want that Eberl. Let me know what you think. is that from Amazon?

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 29, 2011, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 29, 2011, 11:31:21 AM
I really want that Eberl. Let me know what you think. is that from Amazon?

8)

Yes its from Amazon, and also, the pianist himself is one of the sellers  :) I let you know what I think as soon as I hear it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 29, 2011, 07:26:31 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 29, 2011, 11:30:08 AM
Yeah, that's a little motet from <>1795 or so. Was never much of a motet hand, but I liked that one. If it's 1795 it was probably related to London in some way, but if it's later, then Vienna. I'll look when I get home, I think I have a nice little writeup on it. :)

8)

Well I looked it up and it is a D minor chorus adopted from his oratorio Il ritorno di Tobia.  If D was here, I bet he would totally dig it. 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 30, 2011, 09:10:12 PM
Notes on music I listened to today.  ;D

Zelenka: Missa Circumcisionis (ZWV 11)
Cond. Konrad Wagner


Sounds like an early mass, and the baroque qualities are apparent, with the addition of daring harmonies, discernable melodic lines, which are memorable and beautiful. I particularly love the soaring harmonies, and festive orchestration.

Beethoven: Piano Concerto No.4 in G Major, Opus 58
Melvyn Tan/Roger Norrington


I simply love the sound of Tan and his fortepiano here. I have such an attraction to this performance. The sound hints at the feeling I perceive of the early nineteenth Century, and this recording is a big influence in how I imagine that era. The fortepiano is somewhat in the back of the sonic depth of this recording,  as if appearing from the midst of time. The way Tan he gets his tone from his fortepiano and projects the color timbres of this instrument are astounding.

Carl Loewe: "Le Printemps" Tondichtung in Sonatenform, Op.47 (a four movement work, in the traditional sonata format)
Cord Garben (piano) (on the CPO label)


I have become more entranced by the solo piano sonata over the years. Especially the sound of the sonata in the early Romantic era, but also from the Classical and Later Romantic eras. This started with Schubert's piano sonatas in 1996, which made me fall in love with the intimacy of the solo piano sonata. Because of the solo piano, there is the suggestion of an interior, a private place in a home. Perhaps, there is one person playing, or perhaps, one person is playing for a loved one or a group of friends. Carl Loewe's sonatas remind me a little of Schubert, but it's interesting to hear an unknown  composer's own voice, a voice from the past no longer in the mainstream, a voice here on this earth at one point in time, seemingly gone for a many, many years. This sonata has that dreamy Loewe sound, a little like an epic journey Schubert-style, but again, with his own voice, and perhaps with more virtuosity, but also very melodic. This music is music to dream to. I love the feeling I get from Loewe's sonatas, and the sound of the epic journey on such an intimate instrument in an interior space.

Friedrich Kuhlau: Flute Quintet No.1 in D Major, 51
Prospero Ensemble


A new composer to me (a contemporary of Beethoven and Schubert), and this is my first recording of his works. I have only heard the work mentioned above, but I'm excited on discovering this flute quintet, which is a good spirited work, with moments of reflection and melancholy. Highlights are the Minuet and Adagio, which, like the other movements, provide a well balanced  meal of high classical and early romantic eras. Throughout the moments of light humor, there is an undertone of unrest, such as the trio of the Minuet, a brief glimpse of what lies under the surface.

Joseph Haydn: Symphony No.98 in Bb Major
Cond. Franz Bruggen


I'm loving Bruggen's set of Haydn's London Symphonies. There is texture in the sound of this orchestra that is positively organic and rustic. I love the drive and power of the music, as heard on period instruments. There are some details I always look forward to in a Haydn symphony; the melodic material of the slow introduction (if there is one), the second subject in the exposition, the slow movement, and what he does with the minuet and trio. This no-name London has the usual refined but rough and ready melodic material, with the humor and graceful touch Haydn excels and glorifies us with, especially with the orchestration of the finale.

Czerny: Sonate Pastoral, Opus 121 (for piano four hands)
Diane Anderson, Daniel Blumenthal


A tightly structured piece, and very light with humor. The length is around 19 minutes or so, a lighthearted romp through fields of green.

Boccherini: String Quartet in Eb Major, Opus 32 No.1
Quartetto Borciani


The first movement is a structured working out of interesting melodic ideas. At certain moments with complexity and playfulness, such as the thematic material of the first subject.  The short third movement, "Grave" is amazing in atmosphere and mood, dark, and reflecting, played beautifully by the Quartetto Borciani (on Naxos). The minuet and finale very lighthearted and full of action. This quartet is a fine jewel. Absolutely stunning in every respect.

CPE Bach: Sonata in E Minor
Mikhail Pletnev


A stunning performance on the modern pianoforte, of an intimate piece, full of reflection and movement. Short but powerful. CPE Bach's music has so many imaginative twists and turns of phrases.

Matthias Monn: Symphonies in G, Bb, Ab, and Eb Major
L'Arpa Festante (CPO Label)


I'm suddenly in the mood for these early Viennese symphonic works by Monn. Monn is rather new to me, and I love what I'm hearing here. These short symphonies are chock full of atmospheric orchestration, melodic wit, interesting phrasing, and a sense of search, or adventure.

Johann Muthel: Sonata No.1 in F, Sonata No.2 in G Major, Sonata No.3 in C Major
Menno van Delft (clavichord)


I can't praise this recording and these sonatas enough. Where van delft goes with Muthel and the clavichord, into the depths of human experience and questioning, is such a experience to behold. The music is subtle, serious, pondering and other qualities the sensitive listener will receive with beauty and reflection.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 01, 2011, 07:51:35 AM
This morning I am listening to:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517EzQLFCDL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Johann Gottlieb Naumann: Mass No. 18, in D minor (1794), Mass No.21 in C Minor (1786-1806)
Collegium Instrumentale, Dir. Peter Kopp


These works are modest masses with great beauty. The period instruments, and the clarinets in particular, give the flavor of autumn to the orchestration. I really love this recording, and this is a very valuable addition to my 18th Century Mass collection, of which I turn to all the time for peace and reflection. Naumann's liturgical music is not flashy, but solid and very devotional.

Here is a review from fanfare:

Although little known today, during his lifetime Johann Gottlieb Naumann (1741–1801) occupied a very respected niche in the world of late 18th-century music. Born and raised near Dresden, his career was largely made there; after moving to northern Italy in 1757 for further musical training (his teachers there included Padre Martini), he was called to the Saxon imperial court in 1764 on the recommendation of Johann Adolf Hasse as second church composer, attaining promotion to Kapellmeister in 1776. Between 1777 and 1786 he was also active as a musical reformer of opera along Italian lines in Stockholm and Copenhagen; to retain him in Dresden, the Saxon elector promoted Naumann to Oberkapellmeister in 1786. Naumann remained there for the rest of his life, dying a wealthy and respected man. (For further details see Brian Robins's review of the composer's oratorio Betulia liberata in Fanfare 30:2.)

Much of Naumann's oeuvre remains unpublished; a catalog compiled by Heinrich Mannstein in 1841 lists 27 Mass settings, of which those in D and C Minor presented here are numbers 18 and 21. However, since it was a customary practice of the Hofkirche to combine parts to various masses by different composers for liturgical use, manuscript dates suggest that individual Mass movements may have been composed at various times and only later assembled into complete Mass settings. The D-Minor Mass is an apparent exception, with all its movements bearing the date of 1794; the various parts of the C-Minor Mass, by contrast, range from 1786 to 1801. The D Minor was once a well-established work; between 1876 and the mid 1930s it was performed almost annually on December 26, following a Mass on Christmas day by Hasse, and evidence suggests the practice may go back to Naumann's own lifetime. Psalm 96 dates from Naumann's return to Dresden in 1786, and Psalm 103 and the brief one-movement cantata Kommt herzu from 1790. While Naumann himself was a Protestant, the Dresden court was Catholic; Psalm 96 and the cantata are rare instances of Naumann having an opportunity to set German-language texts for Protestant devotions—the psalm for Duke Friedrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin, and the cantata for the Herrnhuter Brüdergemeinde of the Moravian Church, inspired by a visit of Naumann to that devout Pietistic community (after its founding in 1727 it practiced an uninterrupted watch of prayer by its members for 100 years). Gustaf Wasa, an opera on the Swedish king who liberated his country from Danish thralldom, was for decades after its premiere the Swedish national opera (ArkivMusic has reissued the complete Virgin Classics recording with Nicolai Gedda). For unknown reasons the 1803 Breitkopf & Härtel edition of Psalm 96 included the opera's overture as a musical preface, and so it is offered here.

During a visit to Dresden in 1789, Mozart peremptorily dismissed a Naumann Mass as "very poor stuff," and doubtless that verdict affected Naumann's posthumous fortunes. A typical representative of the galant style, his music is neither fish nor fowl for typical expectations regarding either Baroque or Classical-era music; its straightforward simplicity lacks the complexity of the former's use of polyphony and the latter's emphasis upon extended thematic and formal development. Even in his own day, Naumann's music was stylistically in the conservative rearguard (which ideally suited him for the Dresden court); the Wasa Overture sounds startlingly like a work of Handel, and the various psalm and Mass movements demonstrate only a nodding acquaintance with the music of Haydn and no contact with that of Mozart. The harmonies are unenterprising, the melodies ordinary, the rhetorical gestures predictable. Somewhat surprisingly, however, Naumann's music is not dull; while only moderately pleasant rather than memorable, it fulfills its intended ecclesial functions ably and even winningly. Unlike, say, the Mozart, Berlioz, and Verdi Requiems or Beethoven's Missa solemnis, these are psalm and Mass settings that are subordinate to liturgical purposes; they do not draw attention to themselves in ways that distract one from devotional concentration, but rather humbly support it. They simply are not constructed to sustain the concentrated scrutiny of independent listening in the concert hall, and this as much as other factors explains why they have fallen largely into oblivion.

These two CDs are reissues, the first originally released in 1996 and the second in 1999. All the recordings are premieres and remain the sole versions available. The performances (by the same groups in both cases, despite their changes of names) leave nothing to be desired. The instrumental ensemble uses period instruments and plays with refined polish; the chorus is first-rate in every way; the soloists (Kai Wessel and Werner Güra having since achieved greater prominence) without exception all sing their brief parts ably. The digipaks contain informative booklets with texts in the original German and Latin with English translation. An online search has also located these two releases as a combined two-CD budget set for about the same price as each item individually, though I was not able to determine any product details such as inclusion of libretti. For those interested in filling in their collections with music from the secondary ranks of later 18th-century music in general and the galant composers in particular, these discs can be safely recommended.

FANFARE: James A. Altena

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 09:07:32 AM
Oy, Leo, you are having a great weekend!  I've been too busy for more than a passing glance, I'm afraid. I am greatly enjoying this Munch 9th though, it was a good rec for my Sunday morning pleasure. :) 

This afternoon though, some new to me things that I will post on afterward. :)

8)



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Now playing:
Boston SO \ Munch  - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai - Recitativo: 'O Freunde, nicht diese Töne' - Allegro maestoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 01, 2011, 10:29:51 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 09:07:32 AM
Oy, Leo, you are having a great weekend!  I've been too busy for more than a passing glance, I'm afraid. I am greatly enjoying this Munch 9th though, it was a good rec for my Sunday morning pleasure. :) 

This afternoon though, some new to me things that I will post on afterward. :)

8)



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Now playing:
Boston SO \ Munch  - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai - Recitativo: 'O Freunde, nicht diese Töne' - Allegro maestoso

I am indeed! Despite being at work a lot of the time. These spreadsheets are monotonous and demand headphone listening  ;)


Boccherini's string trios...WOW.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YW2KjsKDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 10:31:51 AM
Leo, where did you get that Bruggen set of London symphonies?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 01, 2011, 11:29:52 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 10:31:51 AM
Leo, where did you get that Bruggen set of London symphonies?

A friend of mine burned me his set  ;D  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 11:32:32 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 01, 2011, 10:29:51 AM
I am indeed! Despite being at work a lot of the time. These spreadsheets are monotonous and demand headphone listening  ;)


Boccherini's string trios...WOW.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YW2KjsKDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

8)

Yeah, don't have that one, have this one though:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51IPyeBHIUL.jpg)

and this one with those same guys:

[asin]B000B0WOHQ[/asin]

I like trios too. Like the balancing act the composer has to do to make them sound right. Boccherini did it better than most. :)

Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 10:31:51 AM
Leo, where did you get that Bruggen set of London symphonies?

Is it from the Big Brüggen Box of all his Haydn symphonies? Or single disks? Or is there an actual London Symphonies box out there that I've never seen?

8)


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Now playing:
Pinnock, Trevor/English Concert - Hob 07g C1 Concerto in C for Oboe 3rd mvmt - Rondo: Allegro

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 11:35:28 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 01, 2011, 11:29:52 AM
A friend of mine burned me his set  ;D  8)

:D  That's a nice friend. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 11:32:32 AM

Is it from the Big Brüggen Box of all his Haydn symphonies? Or single disks? Or is there an actual London Symphonies box out there that I've never seen?


Well there are philips duos of the Londons, but if there is a huge Bruggen box out there... that would be nice *cough* if it's in print. :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 01, 2011, 11:40:13 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Well there are philips duos of the Londons, but if there is a huge Bruggen box out there... that would be nice *cough* if it's in print. :D

Gurn, it's the Phillips Duos I have of the Bruggen Haydn London symphonies. By the way, I would love the complete symphonies box from Bruggen!  :-*

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 01, 2011, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 11:32:32 AM
Yeah, don't have that one, have this one though:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51IPyeBHIUL.jpg)

and this one with those same guys:

[asin]B000B0WOHQ[/asin]

I like trios too. Like the balancing act the composer has to do to make them sound right. Boccherini did it better than most. :)

Is it from the Big Brüggen Box of all his Haydn symphonies? Or single disks? Or is there an actual London Symphonies box out there that I've never seen?

8)


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Now playing:
Pinnock, Trevor/English Concert - Hob 07g C1 Concerto in C for Oboe 3rd mvmt - Rondo: Allegro

I don't have the ones you got, but I can see them on the horizon  :)

Yeah, Boccherini's string trios are amazing indeed...WOW again!

:o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 11:44:00 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Well there are philips duos of the Londons, but if there is a huge Bruggen box out there... that would be nice *cough* if it's in print. :D

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bruggen13cover.jpg)

Actually, I don't know if it IS in print anymore. The other day when you were asking about jpc sales it reminded me that David Ross got this box there for peanuts (it was 175 peanuts at Amazon).  :)

8)

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Now playing:
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 05a Sonata #28 in D for Keyboard (inc) 2nd mvmt - Menuet
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 01, 2011, 11:40:13 AM
Gurn, it's the Phillips Duos I have of the Bruggen Haydn London symphonies. By the way, I would love the complete symphonies box from Bruggen!  :-*
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Well there are philips duos of the Londons, but if there is a huge Bruggen box out there... that would be nice *cough* if it's in print. :D

See above. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 05a Sonata #28 in D for Keyboard (inc) 2nd mvmt - Menuet
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 11:47:25 AM
Oh yeah I looked for that, JPC doesn't carry it anymore.  Those Bruggen recordings go out of print fast it seems.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 11:52:25 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 11:44:00 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bruggen13cover.jpg)

Actually, I don't know if it IS in print anymore. The other day when you were asking about jpc sales it reminded me that David Ross got this box there for peanuts (it was 175 peanuts at Amazon).  :)

IIRC (but I'm not totally sure), this box was not a bargain on JPC, but it was rather cheap, I think slightly less than EUR 80 and then it went OOP. I recall it because I was stupid enough to not take advantage of that offer on time. The real bargain was the set with Beethoven's symphonies, sold by EUR 14 or something so before to go OOP.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 11:53:03 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 11:47:25 AM
Oh yeah I looked for that, JPC doesn't carry it anymore.  Those Bruggen recordings go out of print fast it seems.

Philips are a bitch that way. They have some of the best recordings in their vaults! >:(

8)

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Now playing:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 22 07 Missa Brevis "Kleine Orgelmesse" pt 3 - Credo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 11:55:24 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 11:52:25 AM
IIRC (but I'm not totally sure), this box was not a bargain on JPC, but it was rather cheap, I think slightly less than EUR 80 and then it went OOP. I recall it because I was stupid enough to not take advantage of that offer on time. The real bargain was the set with Beethoven's symphonies, selled by EUR 14 or something so before to go OOP.  :)

No, I'm pretty sure that David said he got it for $30 or something around there. it was phenomenal anyway. Even $80 as you say would have been a bargain, since that sold for $14/disk at the best of times.  :-\

8)

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Now playing:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 22 07 Missa Brevis "Kleine Orgelmesse" pt 4 - Sanctus
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 11:57:50 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 11:55:24 AM
No, I'm pretty sure that David said he got it for $30 or something around there. it was phenomenal anyway. Even $80 as you say would have been a bargain, since that sold for $14/disk at the best of times.  :-\

Well, it's an open question for David Ross.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 12:01:07 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 11:52:25 AM
IIRC (but I'm not totally sure), this box was not a bargain on JPC, but it was rather cheap, I think slightly less than EUR 80 and then it went OOP. I recall it because I was stupid enough to not take advantage of that offer on time. The real bargain was the set with Beethoven's symphonies, sold by EUR 14 or something so before to go OOP.  :)

I regret not picking up that Beethoven set when I had the chance.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 12:01:46 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 11:57:50 AM
Well, it's an open question for David Ross.  :)

:D

Well, if I didn't already have it, I would let him make $5 off me plus I would pay the postage.... ;D

8)


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Now playing:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 22 07 Missa Brevis "Kleine Orgelmesse" pt 6 - Agnus Dei
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 12:03:02 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 12:01:07 PM
I regret not picking up that Beethoven set when I had the chance.

I urged you.... :-\

8)

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Now playing:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 22 07 Missa Brevis "Kleine Orgelmesse" pt 6 - Agnus Dei
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 12:04:41 PM
Yeah I know... I got distracted with PI Mozart and what do you know?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 12:09:02 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 12:04:41 PM
Yeah I know... I got distracted with PI Mozart and what do you know?

Mozart! That bastard! >:(   He'll do you every time, Newman was sniffing up the right passage there... :D

8)


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Now playing:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 23a G 09 Motet "O coelitum beati" pt 1 - Aria: O coelitum beati amores
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 12:15:44 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 12:09:02 PM
Mozart! That bastard! >:(   He'll do you every time, Newman was sniffing up the right passage there... :D

I recall when I began to participate on this board your avatar was Mozart. I know you probably love both composers at similar degree, but I always thought that your personality is more Haydnian than Mozartean. Just saying...  :) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 12:15:44 PM
I recall when I began to participate on this board your avatar was Mozart. I know you probably love both composers at similar degree, but I always thought that your personality is more Haydnian than Mozartean. Just saying...  :)

Yeah, I'm a huge Mozart fan. Before devoting the last three years to Haydn, I earlier devoted 3 to Mozart (and 3 to Beethoven too). It wasn't until I really started researching Haydn that I began to feel a strong bond to his music. My loss. Although I am like Mozart with my pseudo-Tourette's... :D

8)

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Now playing:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 23b 01 Salve Regina  pt 1 - Salve Regina
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 12:30:50 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 12:19:26 PM
Yeah, I'm a huge Mozart fan. Before devoting the last three years to Haydn, I earlier devoted 3 to Mozart (and 3 to Beethoven too). It wasn't until I really started researching Haydn that I began to feel a strong bond to his music. My loss. Although I am like Mozart with my pseudo-Tourette's... :D

It's curious, but at first sight my two favorite composers (Bach and Haydn) don't share many common features. But never another composer has appealed my soul so much as them. Always, almost in every piece, my connection with their music is perfect. I really adore those two gigantic geniuses, working every day with an iron sense of duty and never complaining about their destiny, even in the worst times.   
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 12:34:38 PM
Bach and Haydn are my two favorite composers as well, and it is funny since they sound musically so different.  I might not have really gotten into Haydn though if it weren't for Gurn and a former gmg poster.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 12:34:38 PM
Bach and Haydn are my two favorite composers as well...

(http://www.menadvisor.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/brindis.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 12:55:46 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 12:34:38 PM
Bach and Haydn are my two favorite composers as well, and it is funny since they sound musically so different.  I might not have really gotten into Haydn though if it weren't for Gurn and a former gmg poster.

Herman?

8)

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Now playing:
Elly Ameling, Jörg Demus - Hob 26a 14 Lied for Soprano & Keyboard 'Lachet nicht, Mädchen'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2011, 01:00:11 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 12:30:50 PM
It's curious, but at first sight my two favorite composers (Bach and Haydn) don't share many common features. But never another composer has appealed my soul so much as them. Always, almost in every piece, my connection with their music is perfect. I really adore those two gigantic geniuses, working every day with an iron sense of duty and never complaining about their destiny, even in the worst times.

That aspect of Haydn (and Bach too, of course) where he was like "a new symphony tomorrow evening? Certainly your Highness? Just the one? Ah, another in the relative minor? Very well"; just blows me away. Not that they could do it; they all could do it, it was their job. But that they could do it so well, consistently so much better than everyone else was doing it. I am supposing that is what genius consists in. :)

8)


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Now playing:
Elly Ameling, Jörg Demus - Hob 26a 14 Lied for Soprano & Keyboard 'Lachet nicht, Mädchen'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 01:37:11 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 01:00:11 PM
That aspect of Haydn (and Bach too, of course) where he was like "a new symphony tomorrow evening? Certainly your Highness? Just the one? Ah, another in the relative minor? Very well"; just blows me away. Not that they could do it; they all could do it, it was their job. But that they could do it so well, consistently so much better than everyone else was doing it. I am supposing that is what genius consists in. :)

Well, that's exactly my point of view. Haydn was probably the last musician of a genre. Because after him (IMO, with Mozart, but I don't wait you share this opinion  :D) was born what it would be the Romantic prototype of the misunderstood genius, fighting against society which denies to him the acknowledgment that he deserves. I think this is a consequence of the musician considered like a freelance professional, after the awakening of the individualism post-French Revolution, where the old and well regulated (I don't imply desirable) estates of the realm (where, for instance, musicians were considered a part of the domestic service) were drastically transformed and the poor individual was left alone in front of the Society and the State.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 12:55:46 PM
Herman?

Herman still posts right?  I was thinking Molman, but I can thank Herman for Brahms chamber works and thank both for Faure.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 01, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 01, 2011, 11:32:32 AM
Yeah, don't have that one, have this one though:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51IPyeBHIUL.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BoccheriniTrios/711762930_WNnPR-S.jpg)

and this one with those same guys:

I like trios too. Like the balancing act the composer has to do to make them sound right. Boccherini did it better than most.

Leo - I have the same recordings as Gurn (I think that we've exchanged posts on these Luigi discs in the past -  ;D).

BTW- I would NOT advertise on a public forum that you're getting copyrighted music from either friends or other online sources - this is illegal, so best to send a PM - but only my opinion - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2011, 06:59:59 PM
Too late Dave, I've already reported Leo... they're sending in police to break down the door as we speak.  Luckily he has an entire shelf of the complete works of Boccherini to put behind the door. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2011, 04:16:12 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 06:59:59 PM
Too late Dave, I've already reported Leo... they're sending in police to break down the door as we speak.  Luckily he has an entire shelf of the complete works of Boccherini to put behind the door. ;D

That's not the 'Complete Works', just the string quintets. It should be enough though.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 02, 2011, 06:32:01 AM
Ha ha! You guys  ;D 8) ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 02, 2011, 11:15:34 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 01, 2011, 01:37:11 PM
the poor individual was left alone in front of the Society and the State.

Say it again!  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 04, 2011, 07:55:39 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 01, 2011, 02:38:35 PM
Herman still posts right?  I was thinking Molman, but I can thank Herman for Brahms chamber works and thank both for Faure.

Very interesting. Does Molman know of this? He and I are still in frequent communication outside the walls of GMG.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 04, 2011, 07:57:44 PM
I don't know but I still email him from time to time, he got me into Xenakis a few months ago.  I've tried a few times to get him to come back to gmg, but ah heck he'll never come back!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 05, 2011, 12:29:29 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b-cVh0GlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm pulling this off my shelf today to give another listen. I think the completion by Levin works rather well. Well, okay, I LOVE IT.  ;D

What do folks here on the Corner think?

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 05, 2011, 12:40:24 PM
There are several completions and I do wonder what everyone's favorite is... I haven't heard this work in many years but I recently acquired a copy of the Krivine recording and will be listening to it soon.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 06, 2011, 11:11:47 PM
Quote from: Leo K on April 30, 2011, 09:10:12 PM
Notes on music I listened to today.  ;D

Johann Muthel: Sonata No.1 in F, Sonata No.2 in G Major, Sonata No.3 in C Major
Menno van Delft (clavichord)


I can't praise this recording and these sonatas enough. Where van delft goes with Muthel and the clavichord, into the depths of human experience and questioning, is such a experience to behold. The music is subtle, serious, pondering and other qualities the sensitive listener will receive with beauty and reflection.

We are obviously like minded on this recording, Leo! :)

(http://www.teknon.nl/CD3-Muthel.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2011, 06:21:27 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 06, 2011, 11:11:47 PM
We are obviously like minded on this recording, Leo! :)

(http://www.teknon.nl/CD3-Muthel.jpg)

Q

Awesome to hear! Yeah, this recording is truly a great experience  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2011, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 01, 2011, 07:51:35 AM
This morning I am listening to:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517EzQLFCDL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Johann Gottlieb Naumann: Mass No. 18, in D minor (1794), Mass No.21 in C Minor (1786-1806)
Collegium Instrumentale, Dir. Peter Kopp


These works are modest masses with great beauty. The period instruments, and the clarinets in particular, give the flavor of autumn to the orchestration. I really love this recording, and this is a very valuable addition to my 18th Century Mass collection, of which I turn to all the time for peace and reflection. Naumann's liturgical music is not flashy, but solid and very devotional.

Here is a review from fanfare:

Although little known today, during his lifetime Johann Gottlieb Naumann (1741–1801) occupied a very respected niche in the world of late 18th-century music. Born and raised near Dresden, his career was largely made there; after moving to northern Italy in 1757 for further musical training (his teachers there included Padre Martini), he was called to the Saxon imperial court in 1764 on the recommendation of Johann Adolf Hasse as second church composer, attaining promotion to Kapellmeister in 1776. Between 1777 and 1786 he was also active as a musical reformer of opera along Italian lines in Stockholm and Copenhagen; to retain him in Dresden, the Saxon elector promoted Naumann to Oberkapellmeister in 1786. Naumann remained there for the rest of his life, dying a wealthy and respected man. (For further details see Brian Robins's review of the composer's oratorio Betulia liberata in Fanfare 30:2.)

Much of Naumann's oeuvre remains unpublished; a catalog compiled by Heinrich Mannstein in 1841 lists 27 Mass settings, of which those in D and C Minor presented here are numbers 18 and 21. However, since it was a customary practice of the Hofkirche to combine parts to various masses by different composers for liturgical use, manuscript dates suggest that individual Mass movements may have been composed at various times and only later assembled into complete Mass settings. The D-Minor Mass is an apparent exception, with all its movements bearing the date of 1794; the various parts of the C-Minor Mass, by contrast, range from 1786 to 1801. The D Minor was once a well-established work; between 1876 and the mid 1930s it was performed almost annually on December 26, following a Mass on Christmas day by Hasse, and evidence suggests the practice may go back to Naumann's own lifetime. Psalm 96 dates from Naumann's return to Dresden in 1786, and Psalm 103 and the brief one-movement cantata Kommt herzu from 1790. While Naumann himself was a Protestant, the Dresden court was Catholic; Psalm 96 and the cantata are rare instances of Naumann having an opportunity to set German-language texts for Protestant devotions—the psalm for Duke Friedrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin, and the cantata for the Herrnhuter Brüdergemeinde of the Moravian Church, inspired by a visit of Naumann to that devout Pietistic community (after its founding in 1727 it practiced an uninterrupted watch of prayer by its members for 100 years). Gustaf Wasa, an opera on the Swedish king who liberated his country from Danish thralldom, was for decades after its premiere the Swedish national opera (ArkivMusic has reissued the complete Virgin Classics recording with Nicolai Gedda). For unknown reasons the 1803 Breitkopf & Härtel edition of Psalm 96 included the opera's overture as a musical preface, and so it is offered here.

During a visit to Dresden in 1789, Mozart peremptorily dismissed a Naumann Mass as "very poor stuff," and doubtless that verdict affected Naumann's posthumous fortunes. A typical representative of the galant style, his music is neither fish nor fowl for typical expectations regarding either Baroque or Classical-era music; its straightforward simplicity lacks the complexity of the former's use of polyphony and the latter's emphasis upon extended thematic and formal development. Even in his own day, Naumann's music was stylistically in the conservative rearguard (which ideally suited him for the Dresden court); the Wasa Overture sounds startlingly like a work of Handel, and the various psalm and Mass movements demonstrate only a nodding acquaintance with the music of Haydn and no contact with that of Mozart. The harmonies are unenterprising, the melodies ordinary, the rhetorical gestures predictable. Somewhat surprisingly, however, Naumann's music is not dull; while only moderately pleasant rather than memorable, it fulfills its intended ecclesial functions ably and even winningly. Unlike, say, the Mozart, Berlioz, and Verdi Requiems or Beethoven's Missa solemnis, these are psalm and Mass settings that are subordinate to liturgical purposes; they do not draw attention to themselves in ways that distract one from devotional concentration, but rather humbly support it. They simply are not constructed to sustain the concentrated scrutiny of independent listening in the concert hall, and this as much as other factors explains why they have fallen largely into oblivion.

These two CDs are reissues, the first originally released in 1996 and the second in 1999. All the recordings are premieres and remain the sole versions available. The performances (by the same groups in both cases, despite their changes of names) leave nothing to be desired. The instrumental ensemble uses period instruments and plays with refined polish; the chorus is first-rate in every way; the soloists (Kai Wessel and Werner Güra having since achieved greater prominence) without exception all sing their brief parts ably. The digipaks contain informative booklets with texts in the original German and Latin with English translation. An online search has also located these two releases as a combined two-CD budget set for about the same price as each item individually, though I was not able to determine any product details such as inclusion of libretti. For those interested in filling in their collections with music from the secondary ranks of later 18th-century music in general and the galant composers in particular, these discs can be safely recommended.

FANFARE: James A. Altena


I'm requoting this to say again, how special this recording of (relatively-unknown) masses is! Especially the clarinet writing, very autumnal and serene. The reviewer is almost correct in saying Naumann's masses are more Haydn influenced, with no Mozart to be heard, but I think I can hear some Mozart stylings here and there. Yet it's interesting to hear how another composer takes inspiration from Haydn and creates his own voice.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2011, 10:40:28 AM
(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/d9/39/000d39d9_medium.jpeg)

I'm really enjoying the trumpet concertos of Johann Molter this morning, especially the beautiful slow movements! Love the sound of Sauter's bright trumpet! Here are the works I'm hearing:

Trumpet Concerto in D, MWV IV-12
Trumpet Concerto in D, MWV IV-13
Trumpet Concerto in D, MWV IV-14
Trumpet Concerto in D, MWV VI-35


--from the web:

Johann Melchior Molter (10 February 1696 – 12 January 1765) was a German baroque composer and violinist.Molter's surviving works include an oratorio; several cantatas; over 140 symphonies, overtures, and other works for orchestra; many concertos, including some of the first clarinet concertos ever written; and many pieces of chamber music. One of Molter's many Trumpet Concertos is the signature piece of C-SPAN's Washington Journal.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2011, 10:46:12 AM
Interesting, Leo. Never heard of him. Where was he based? Dresden or Potsdam seem likely... :-\  Cool. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt - K 317 Mass in C "Coronation" pt 3 - Credo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2011, 11:15:19 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 07, 2011, 10:46:12 AM
Interesting, Leo. Never heard of him. Where was he based? Dresden or Potsdam seem likely... :-\  Cool. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt - K 317 Mass in C "Coronation" pt 3 - Credo

Gurn, I had to check the Wiki, and here is what I find:

He was born at Tiefenort, near Eisenach, and was educated at the Gymnasium in Eisenach. By autumn 1717 he had left Eisenach and was working as a violinist in Karlsruhe. Here he married Maria Salome Rollwagen, with whom he had eight children. From 1719 to 1721 he studied composition in Italy. From 1722 to 1733 he was court Kapellmeister at Karlsruhe. In 1734 he became Kapellmeister at the court of Duke Wilhelm Heinrich of Saxe-Eisenach.

Maria died in 1737; by 1742 Molter had married Maria Christina Wagner. In that year he returned to Karlsruhe and began teaching at the gymnasium there. From 1747 to his death Molter was employed by Margrave Carl Friedrich of Baden-Durlach, the son of his first employer. He died at Karlsruhe.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Molter.jpg/220px-Molter.jpg)

I find Molter's music very much of his time, and relaxing, as well as deeply moving in the slow movements.

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2011, 11:22:03 AM
(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/1e/8a/00128a1e_medium.jpeg)
Moscheles: Grosse Sonate op. 41
Tom Beghin (fortepiano)


My ongoing exploration of the history of the piano sonata continues with this epic work by Ignaz Moscheles (1794-1870). How fascinating for me, a Schubert fanatic, to explore the music of his contemporaries, and discover new worlds, vastly different from Schubert, with sound worlds lost in time, to be found by the eager seeker. This sonata by Moscheles, played on a period fortepiano, is expressive, epic, delicate, and the tone of the fortepiano is well captured in this recording. I particularly love the lower resister of the fortepiano, with the upper register SO sweet, and engaging! This piano sonata has the beautiful "wandering" sound I love about Schubert, but Moscheles speaks with his own musical voice. The texture is full, harmonically direct and, at certain moments, adventurous. This work is quite a unique journey into a world of light and intimate experiences. Who knows what stories lay behind these abstract sounds, but the images that come to mind take me far away in another world, a world large with many corners in which to explore and search within.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 07, 2011, 02:20:02 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 05, 2011, 12:29:29 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b-cVh0GlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm pulling this off my shelf today to give another listen. I think the completion by Levin works rather well. Well, okay, I LOVE IT.  ;D

What do folks here on the Corner think?

After another listen this afternoon, I am convinced that this recording and completion, along with the Gardiner and Hogwood accounts, is my favorite recording of this amazing mass.

Levin's seemless reconstruction is breathtaking, and totally Mozartian in tone. I am fan of radical reconstructions. For instance, Duncan Druce's reworking/composing of Mozart's Requiem is another favorite of mine, as is Richard Maunder's edition on Hogwood's recording. These reconstructions are interesting musical thesis' and arguments, and provide 'what if' scenerios onto the uncompleted work in question.

Indeed, musiciologists, who recompose and reconstruct, are practically post-modern composers in their own right. Composers completing the unfinished works of dead composers are the new composers of our unique age. In this train of thought, Franz Sussmayr, taking on the task of completing Mozart's Requiem, is a forefather of this kind of post-modern composer! I go too far I think  8) But it is fun to ponder!

;)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 08, 2011, 08:55:59 AM
(http://www.cdbiblio.com/eingang/cdimages/img_haydn/haydn0071.jpg)
I listened to the Clavichord disk, lost in a reverie over the organic tone of the instrument on this recording. I am totally in love with this box!


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MPzyLNWRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The Eberl Sonata set came in the mail on Thursday, and now I'm just starting to explore the first disk. The sound of the fortepiano is supreme in the sonics as presented here. Detail, closeness, and atmosphere are all here. The music is a joy. Eberl's sonatas are very engaging to say the least. There is always something interesting at every turn.  I'm listening to his Op.1, Op.12 and Op.15. I was expecting a Mozartian sound, especially in the early works, but that's not the case. The music is more romantic and emotional than I was expecting, almost like Schubert. This is good news! Man, I love this late classical/early romantic era.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2011, 09:07:25 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 08, 2011, 08:55:59 AM
(http://www.cdbiblio.com/eingang/cdimages/img_haydn/haydn0071.jpg)
I listened to the Clavichord disk, lost in a reverie over the organic tone of the instrument on this recording. I am totally in love with this box!

Yeah, I just relistened much of that box in the last week. When I first got it (3 years ago) I wasn't enamored of her approach, rather on the feminine side for my taste. But then I realized that the fault lay with me, not her. Romantic bully-boy virtuosos can't play them well unless they take a Quaalude first... :D :D

Quote(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MPzyLNWRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The Eberl Sonata set came in the mail on Thursday, and now I'm just starting to explore the first disk. The sound of the fortepiano is supreme in the sonics as presented here. Detail, closeness, and atmosphere are all here. The music is a joy. Eberl's sonatas are very engaging to say the least. There is always something interesting at every turn.  I'm listening to his Op.1, Op.12 and Op.15. I was expecting a Mozartian sound, especially in the early works, but that's not the case. The music is more romantic and emotional than I was expecting, almost like Schubert. This is good news! Man, I love this late classical/early romantic era.

That's good news then, since this is on MY list this month too. Thanks for the feedback on that. :)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
NYPO \ Bernstein \ Martina Arroyo \ Regina Sarfaty \ Nicholas di Virgilio \ Norman Scott - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt pt 2 - Presto - Rezitativo - "O Freunde, nicht diese Tone!" - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 08, 2011, 09:10:24 AM
Which one is the clavichord disc? I haven't listened through that box in years and didn't even remember that.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 08, 2011, 09:45:09 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 08, 2011, 09:10:24 AM
Which one is the clavichord disc? I haven't listened through that box in years and didn't even remember that.

The Clavichord is on disk 4. Amazing stuff!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 08, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
(http://images.pricerunner.com/product/image/81158417/Adalbert-Gyrowetz-Gyrowetz-Three-String-Quartets-Op-44-Salomon-Quartet.jpg)

I'm quite fascinated by this disk. The Op.44 Quartets by Adalbert Gyrowitz (1763-1850). Haydnesque in mood, a mature voice, witty, thoughtful musical contrasts, and thoughtful structure are all here, and more. As always with these deep, epic, late classical quartets, the slow movements are a real highlight. The A Flat Major Quartet (No.3) is a fascinating key for such a high classical style work! It sounds brooding, and questioning in nature, with a brooding trio in the minuet too. Fascinating quartet!

Quoth the Wiki:

QuoteAdalbert Gyrowitz (1763-1850)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Adalbert_Gyrowetz.jpg)

His father was the choirmaster in Budweis' cathedral, and Adalbert first studied with him. Adalbert then travelled to Prague, where he studied law but continued to learn music.

At around this time he was in the employment of Count Franz von Fünfkirchen in Brno, whose employees were all musicians. Here he started composing, among other things, symphonies, of which he was eventually to write over 60. In 1785 he moved to Vienna, where he met Mozart, who performed one of Jírovec's symphonies in the same year.[1] From 1786 to around 1793, he travelled throughout Europe. He spent some time in Paris, where he established that some symphonies that had been published as the work of Joseph Haydn were in fact his work.[2] He spent three years in Italy, meeting Goethe in Rome and studying with Nicola Sala in Naples. In 1791, he met Haydn, whom he idolized, in London. While in London, Johann Peter Salomon commissioned symphonies from Gyrowetz to be performed at his Hannover Square Room Concerts.

He was a prolific composer. His operas and singspiele numbered over 30. They include Semiramide (1791), Der Augenarzt (1811), and Robert, oder Die Prüfung.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 09, 2011, 01:40:08 PM
I have a taped broadcast of Johann Naumann's opera, Cara och Alonso (in three acts), conducted by Rene Jacobs, and played by the Concerto Koln. I listened to this for the first time last night, and heard Act I and the beginning of Act II. This opera is lovely! The melodies are graceful and the orchestration simple and direct, with consistent tonality throughout. The orchestra plays splendidly with nuance and passion. I love the recitatives and how they drive they scenes. The arias are melodic and show a range of moods.

Unfortunately, I don't have a libretto or know the story, so I can't comment on Naumann's dramatic instincts. I haven't been able to find much information online, but I didn't have time to conduct research yesterday. What I did was simply sit back and take in the glorious sounds of 18th century opera. My mind envisioned various scenes and I imagined the premiere in Sweden, September of 1783, within a candle-lit theatre, surrounded by lords and ladies.  I imagine the after opera parties, the drawing room flirtatiousness and the heavy drink. A night at the opera is pretty grand stuff!

I am going to explore more 18th Century opera, and reach beyond Mozart. I have a three Cimerosa operas on disk (I enjoyed my first operatic outing with a Cimerosa opera a couple years ago) but I want to check out a Dittersdorf opera next, since I really like his oratorio "Giob".                   

Stay tuned, and perhaps I will write more about the Naumann opera as I finish hearing  the whole opera.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: RJR on May 09, 2011, 02:45:18 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2011, 06:52:06 AM
Leo & Gurn - I'd have to join in and state that the clarinet is probably my favorite wind instrument fronting in chamber works (and orchestral ones w/ a wind being up front as the solo instrument).  Obviously, Klöcker figures prominently in my collection (can't even guess 'how many' discs I own w/ him - would need to check my database).  But, I do not own the recording w/ Gossec (just have 1 CD his works - symphonies), but have all of the others, and most in the same performances!

And I must further support Gurn concerning that bassoon disc of Brunetti's compositions for that instrument - like the bassoon also and am looking for more output w/ this neglected wind!   :D

There was a cassette at the music library in Montreal in 80s titled Afternoon of a Dinosaur (L'après-midi d'un dinosaur). Lots of diverse tracks, featuring the bassoon. Great stuff. Including Gounod. Don't know if it was ever transferred to cd, though.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 12, 2011, 05:45:29 AM
I was wondering, what recordings of Schubert's sonatas on the fortepiano to folks here enjoy?

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2011, 06:03:23 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 12, 2011, 05:45:29 AM
I was wondering, what recordings of Schubert's sonatas on the fortepiano to folks here enjoy?

;D

Bilson, Badura-Skoda, Vermeulen (new and old sets). If they don't satisfy your needs for interpretive variety and amazing fortepiano sounds, then nothing will. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2011, 07:46:51 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 08, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
(http://images.pricerunner.com/product/image/81158417/Adalbert-Gyrowetz-Gyrowetz-Three-String-Quartets-Op-44-Salomon-Quartet.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fSCVjuMiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm quite fascinated by this disk. The Op.44 Quartets by Adalbert Gyrowitz (1763-1850). Haydnesque in mood, a mature voice, witty, thoughtful musical contrasts, and thoughtful structure are all here, and more. As always with these deep, epic, late classical quartets, the slow movements are a real highlight. The A Flat Major Quartet (No.3) is a fascinating key for such a high classical style work! It sounds brooding, and questioning in nature, with a brooding trio in the minuet too. Fascinating quartet!

Leo - I have that Gyrowetz SQ disc but have not given it a spin in a while, nor have I explored some of his other works - a plethora listed in his Wiki article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalbert_Gyrowetz) - would be interested if others may know more of his works & recordings, such as the Audite CD added above? 

Regarding the Schubert piano works, I also have the Badura-Skoda performances on fortepiano (in addition to Uchida on a modern piano) - have yet to explore another FP collection of the sonatas -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2011, 08:08:08 AM
Damn, I meant to get back and talk about ole Adalbert (gotta love the name, it's right there with Nepomuk!).

I have that string quartets disk also and I think they are fine works. I think the Salomon's do a good job selling them too. I also have his "Contemporaries of Mozart" symphonies disk.

[asin]B00003XB27[/asin]

He was a very competent composer, highly successful in his own time, and made the most of his inspiration. His inspiration wasn't at the highest level (I say this for the critics of non-Canonic composers),  but he didn't waste any of it. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 12, 2011, 09:40:32 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 12, 2011, 08:08:08 AM
Damn, I meant to get back and talk about ole Adalbert (gotta love the name, it's right there with Nepomuk!).

I have that string quartets disk also and I think they are fine works. I think the Salomon's do a good job selling them too. I also have his "Contemporaries of Mozart" symphonies disk.

[asin]B00003XB27[/asin]

He was a very competent composer, highly successful in his own time, and made the most of his inspiration. His inspiration wasn't at the highest level (I say this for the critics of non-Canonic composers),  but he didn't waste any of it. :D

8)

Aaah, thanks for the heads up on this recording Gurn! I shall look into this one.


And thanks all for the comments on Fortepiano Schubert  8) There is more than I thought!

The only fortepiano Schubert I've heard is a Melvyn Tan disk with the D.960...I often wish I hadn't given this disk away!  :'(

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 12, 2011, 10:50:08 AM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-46ZkqjKhrjk/TcwmK4SRjWI/AAAAAAAAIdE/20w5r3125XQ/s1600/trickilir+portada.PNG)

Quote

Life:

(quoted from http://www.classical-composers.org/comp/tricklir)

Jean-Balthasar Tricklir was born in Dijon, France in 1750 to a family of German descent. From his earliest years Tricklir demonstrated a youthful passion for music. Accordingly his parents directed his interests to serving the Church. Lessons on the violin and cello soon overtook his preparation for the priesthood. By age 15 his musical studies surpassed his ecclesiastical interests and he left Dijon to further refine his cello technique in Mannheim, Germany. It was there where he came to the attention of the powerful Electors Palatine of the Rhine. Tricklir continued to live in Mannheim until 1768 profiting from the experience of what observers portrayed as a musician's heaven.

During the 1770's Tricklir made three trips to Italy and performed at the Concert in Paris of May, 1776. It was Europe's leading concert series and provided an international platform for the presentation of new music by professional performers. Luigi Boccherini headlined the broad register of soloist cellists at the Concert Spirituel along with the brothers Jean-Pierre and Jean-Louis Duport. Jean-Baptiste Janson and Jean-Balthasar Tricklir appeared from the Elector Carl Therodore's Mannheim orchestra confirmng the elite status of Tricklir among the finest cellists of his day. In 1782 Tricklir was appointed chamber virtuoso to the Francophile electoral court in Mainz, Germany. The composer's value continued to rise when in March, 1783 he entered the service of the Saxon elector in Dresden, Germany, and he would remain there until his death in November 29, 1813.

Tricklir published a set of three cello concertos issued in Berlin and Amsterdam in 1782. Six sonatas for cello and basso continuo followed in the 1780's. Tricklir's thirteen surviving cello concertos, including one edited and published in 1787 as the composer's Fourth Concerto by Jean-Louis Duport, use the instrument's full range and project melodies that favor the rich sounds of the C string. The thirteenth and fifteenth supplements to the catalog of Leipzig publisher Breitkopf for years 1779-80 and 1782-84 list two of Tricklir's cello concertos along with cello works of Luigi Boccherini, Giuseppe Fiala, Franz Anton Hoffmeister, Ignaz Joseph Pleyel, Joseph Reicha and Johann Conrad Schlick. The listing speaks to Jean-Balthasar Tricklir's significance both as a cellist and composer and has been acknowledged; understanding of the French-born cellist's music remains constrained by the absence of modern editions of his cello and violin concertos. Tricklir delivered works of advanced craftsmanship and invention into the music market creating quality compositions for the cello.

Judged to be one of the greatest masters of the cello and a tasteful composer for his instrument by biographer Ernst Ludwig Gerber. Author Francois-Joseph Fetis described Tricklir as one of the finest cellists of the late 18th Century. Wilhelm Josef von Wasieliewski in his Das Violoncello und seine Geschichte written in 1889 notes that Tricklir was a highly appreciated artist. Tricklir was an important link between Anton Fils and Bernhard Heinrick Romberg. He was one of the first composers to publish cello music using bass, tenor and treble clefs at pitch in contrast to the prevailing use of moveable C clefs. Unlike other Austro-German cellists, Tricklir made extensive use of separate bowings in his compositions accenting them with light and shade.
Each of Tricklir's cello concertos begins with memorable patterns that leap out of the sonata first movements. The slow second movements allow subordinate themes to serve as a initiation for the solo cello's highlights which are routinely marked by the use of double stops and chordal flourishes. Folk music appears in the final movements as cheerful rondos complete the concertos finales. Specifically, in Cello Concerto No. 4 in D major, a Scottish melody adds verve.

Although Triclir falls short of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart genius for translating musical signals, he proves to be an accomplished melodist. Tricklir's rondos are among the finest creations for the instrument found in the repertoire of 18th Century composition. As a master of the first order, the music scene profits from the exposure of Tricklir's works to a wide listening audience.


AND

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Xc002IwnTdE/TcwYVq3qnWI/AAAAAAAAIc0/niUSld9mjAg/s1600/schmitt+portada.PNG)

Here is a link to a book length thesis on this composer, for those obsessed like me, and would likely love to read more  ;)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/40547675/Thesis-Joseph-Schmitt


THESE look very interesting to say the least. Perhaps folks on the corner have discussed these already? I haven't heard them yet, but they are recordings I've been meaning to listen to soon, and today may be the day I listen, as they are next in my pile  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 13, 2011, 11:50:34 AM
I was able to sample both the disks mentioned in my last post above, and find both fascinating. Schimitt has an elegant way with melody and harmony, almost romantic in sound. The Tricklir Cello Concerto (no.4) reminds me of Dittersdorf; gallant, with simple melodies and predictable harmony. Yes, this is what I love about it, and I can't wait to hear more!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 13, 2011, 03:08:46 PM
I was listening to Mozart's K.361 Serenade in Bb Major last night, the Phillipe Herreweghe account. Man, it had been so long since I listened to K.361 I couldn't remember the 1st movement music. This recording is a glorious interpretation, with excellent sonics. I'm preaching to the choir, but this work is such a grand conception, symphonic and operatic in nature, probably written in 1781 or so, yet no one will know unless further evidence turns up. The mysterious reason to the work's existence only adds to the attraction.
 
The other work I wonder about is Eine Kleine Nachtsmusik. Why was this written, and for what occasion? Are there missing movements, or did Mozart really intend for four movements? I think it was Maynard Solomon who suggested Eine Kleine Nachtsmusik was written to counter-contrast Mozart's Musical Joke, but who knows? I love this mysterious, perfect work. It's hard to imagine adding more movements to the perfect symmetry of the four movements we have.
 
Does anyone have favorite recordings of Eine Kleine Nachtsmusik? I really love a performance on a Smithsonian record set, dedicated to Mozart on period instruments, that was released in the later 80s. I do not have the recording information with me at the moment, but I can post it later. I do remember Jaap Schroeder was involved in some of the performances on this set.
 
 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 13, 2011, 04:42:28 PM
Leo, the recording that I was imprinted with and I rather like is Marriner, which I bought on tape!  It's been awhile.  More recently I like the string quartet version performed by the Hagen Quartet.  I recently bought Mackerras, can't wait to listen!

As for PI recordings I have not heard them, but I believe Manze has done it and I bet it can also be found in the big Hogwood set.  Does anyone have any preferred PI recordings?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2011, 04:48:01 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 13, 2011, 03:08:46 PM
I was listening to Mozart's K.361 Serenade in Bb Major last night, the Phillipe Herreweghe account. Man, it had been so long since I listened to K.361 I couldn't remember the 1st movement music. This recording is a glorious interpretation, with excellent sonics. I'm preaching to the choir, but this work is such a grand conception, symphonic and operatic in nature, probably written in 1781 or so, yet no one will know unless further evidence turns up. The mysterious reason to the work's existence only adds to the attraction.

The other work I wonder about is Eine Kleine Nachtsmusik. Why was this written, and for what occasion? Are there missing movements, or did Mozart really intend for four movements? I think it was Maynard Solomon who suggested Eine Kleine Nachtsmusik was written to counter-contrast Mozart's Musical Joke, but who knows? I love this mysterious, perfect work. It's hard to imagine adding more movements to the perfect symmetry of the four movements we have.

Does anyone have favorite recordings of Eine Kleine Nachtsmusik? I really love a performance on a Smithsonian record set, dedicated to Mozart on period instruments, that was released in the later 80s. I do not have the recording information with me at the moment, but I can post it later. I do remember Jaap Schroeder was involved in some of the performances on this set.

I really like Herreweghe's account too. This is such a luxuriously wonderful work, I have actually never heard an accounting that I didn't like, although the timbre of period winds is the determining factor for me. 2 other PI versions that I have are the Amadeus Winds with Hogwood which is a Double Decca and fabulous:

[asin]B000024A0A[/asin]

I got this last autumn for a song. It was easily worth 2 or 3 songs.... :D

Another that I have is just too hard to get, I was blessed with it by a friend (magazine and all!). That is the Wind Soloists of the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Anthony Halstead. It was recorded especially for BBC Music Magazine and never released otherwise.  It is especially good too.

Now, the K 525 Serenade in G. Often reviled by ignorant bastards  because it is so frequently played as to become a cliché. Of course, that is because it is the perfect musical work, in all proportions and ways. I can't list all my versions of this, or even recommend one over another. However, I can tell you that Mozart, in his works list with incipits, recorded this as a "small night music" (Eine kleine Nachtmusic), which is to say, a short serenade, in 5 movements.

[asin]B000004CX9[/asin](http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartHogwoodEinekleinecover.jpg)

What is missing is a minuet & trio. In this version, Hogwood has used a minuet and trio that Mozart co-wrote with his pupil Thomas Attwood, and which is in Attwood's composition book partly in Mozart's handwriting and with annotations by him. So it is also an authentic work, and happens to be in the right key and all other specifications to fit right in. You can always not play it if you don't like it but it is an interesting experiment anyway, and a very nice disk to have too.

8)


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Now playing:
Ronald Brautigam - Hob 16 47 Sonata #57 in F for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2011, 05:07:51 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 13, 2011, 04:42:28 PM
Leo, the recording that I was imprinted with and I rather like is Marriner, which I bought on tape!  It's been awhile.  More recently I like the string quartet version performed by the Hagen Quartet.  I recently bought Mackerras, can't wait to listen!

As for PI recordings I have not heard them, but I believe Manze has done it and I bet it can also be found in the big Hogwood set.  Does anyone have any preferred PI recordings?

David,
Are you referring to EkN here? The Hagen's have done this? Damn!  :D

You are right, Manze has done it also. I have that one, and not surprisingly I like it.

[asin]B0000AQVM4[/asin]

This recording points out an interesting fact about this piece. Mozart wrote it out as a 1 to a part work for what is essentially a string quartet + double bass. It is very unusual to hear it this way. On modern instruments I have only the Talich Quartet on Calliope. On PI, only this one. Hard to say which is most authentic; I don't think Mozart cared, actually. Small orchestra or string quintet, either way it's a peach. :)

8)



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Now playing:
Amadeus Winds - K 370a 361 Serenade in Bb for 13 Winds & Bass 5th mvmt -  Romance: Adagio - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 13, 2011, 05:10:11 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 13, 2011, 04:48:01 PM
I really like Herreweghe's account too. This is such a luxuriously wonderful work, I have actually never heard an accounting that I didn't like, although the timbre of period winds is the determining factor for me. 2 other PI versions that I have are the Amadeus Winds with Hogwood which is a Double Decca and fabulous:

[asin]B000024A0A[/asin]

I got this last autumn for a song. It was easily worth 2 or 3 songs.... :D

Another that I have is just too hard to get, I was blessed with it by a friend (magazine and all!). That is the Wind Soloists of the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Anthony Halstead. It was recorded especially for BBC Music Magazine and never released otherwise.  It is especially good too.

Now, the K 525 Serenade in G. Often reviled by ignorant bastards  because it is so frequently played as to become a cliché. Of course, that is because it is the perfect musical work, in all proportions and ways. I can't list all my versions of this, or even recommend one over another. However, I can tell you that Mozart, in his works list with incipits, recorded this as a "small night music" (Eine kleine Nachtmusic), which is to say, a short serenade, in 5 movements.

[asin]B000004CX9[/asin](http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartHogwoodEinekleinecover.jpg)

What is missing is a minuet & trio. In this version, Hogwood has used a minuet and trio that Mozart co-wrote with his pupil Thomas Attwood, and which is in Attwood's composition book partly in Mozart's handwriting and with annotations by him. So it is also an authentic work, and happens to be in the right key and all other specifications to fit right in. You can always not play it if you don't like it but it is an interesting experiment anyway, and a very nice disk to have too.

8)
----------------
Now playing:
Ronald Brautigam - Hob 16 47 Sonata #57 in F for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Moderato

Both of those Hogwood recordings look like essentials for the collection, and I'm going to at least get his K.525 in the near future, thanks for the heads up  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2011, 05:17:38 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 13, 2011, 05:10:11 PM
Both of those Hogwood recordings look like essentials for the collection, and I'm going to at least get his K.525 in the near future, thanks for the heads up  ;D

No problem. The price is right on both of them (one of my criteria for recommending) so they are at least worth consideration. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Amadeus Winds - K 375 Serenade in Eb for Winds 1st mvmt -  Allegro maestoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 13, 2011, 05:30:36 PM
Are they in the big Hogwood symphony/serenade box or do you have to pick it up individually?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2011, 05:41:49 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 13, 2011, 05:30:36 PM
Are they in the big Hogwood symphony/serenade box or do you have to pick it up individually?

No, they are not in that multi-million dollar box!   The serenades are not in there completely, only the 4 or 5 movements of them that he polished up into symphonies. And only the orchestral serenades were done that way (by Mozart I mean, not by Hogwood), not the littler wind and string ensembles. Ones like "Posthorn" and "Haffner" that are major orchestral works to start with. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Amadeus Winds - K 375 Serenade in Eb for Winds 5th mvmt -  Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 13, 2011, 05:46:36 PM
Well poop!  Is there a nice PI box set of cassations, divertimenti and serenades?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2011, 05:53:35 PM
Quote from: DavidW on May 13, 2011, 05:46:36 PM
Well poop!  Is there a nice PI box set of cassations, divertimenti and serenades?

You should be so lucky... :-\

What I have has been pieced together over 10 years of intensive searching. And I don't have everything PI yet either, because things like the orchestral serenades are not recorded yet, AFAIK. I mean, you can get the odd one here or there (I have the Haffner by 2 different groups, and the Robinig by L'Archibudelli and friends), but money isn't going to resolve this one, I'm afraid. But, the Freiburg Baroque or the Concerto Köln would make a killing with a series like that!

8)


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Now playing:
Amadeus Winds - K 384a 388 Serenade in c for Winds 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 19, 2011, 02:26:21 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 28, 2011, 07:55:20 AM
I have 3 or 4 Rolla disks, but not that one. It is good music, I would personally have a go with that disk, I think you will be pleased. As always though, let me know if it sucks.... :D

8)

I can now confirm, strongly in fact, the loveliness of this disc. Fred's Bank has nothing to fear on this account.

The recorded sound is strikingly earthy, feels like you're sitting in the room with the players.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2011, 04:18:06 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on May 19, 2011, 02:26:21 AM
I can now confirm, strongly in fact, the loveliness of this disc. Fred's Bank has nothing to fear on this account.

The recorded sound is strikingly earthy, feels like you're sitting in the room with the players.

:D  Excellent, Fred will be delighted!

By sheer coincidence I was listening to Rolla on my way to work this morning. When it first popped up I didn't recognize it and just sat back enjoying, although finally I had to check and see. It was the Sinfonia in Bb for Strings by the Milan Chamber Orchestra. From this disk;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b9MIr8i2L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Amazon doesn't have the disk any longer, but the MP3's are inexpensive anyway, and well worth it. 

In any case, I am delighted that you are pleased with it. Pleasant surprises are the best ones. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 19, 2011, 04:36:20 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 19, 2011, 04:18:06 AM
:D  Excellent, Fred will be delighted!

By sheer coincidence I was listening to Rolla on my way to work this morning. When it first popped up I didn't recognize it and just sat back enjoying, although finally I had to check and see. It was the Sinfonia in Bb for Strings by the Milan Chamber Orchestra. From this disk;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b9MIr8i2L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Amazon doesn't have the disk any longer, but the MP3's are inexpensive anyway, and well worth it. 

In any case, I am delighted that you are pleased with it. Pleasant surprises are the best ones. :D

8)

Didn't know about that one. It's hard enough to track what is in print, let alone the myriad deletes. While we're on a Rolla roll, here are the discs I have. Can't review them from memory, but if anyone is curious about one, I'll give it a listen and react.

Sei Duetti a Due Viole, Tactus 751803
Tre Duetti Concertanti, Op.15, Tactus 751802
Duos for Violin and Viola, Pan 10172
3 Duos for Violin and Violincello, CPO 999964
Duetti per Flauto e Violino, Tactus 751801
Trio Concertante, Op.1 (2), Hungaroton 32020
Flute Chamber Music, Dynamic 594
Violin Sonatas et al., Naxos 8572010

(Edited to get it right.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2011, 04:41:53 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on May 19, 2011, 04:36:20 AM
Didn't know about that one. It's hard enough to track what is in print, let alone the myriad deletes. While we're on a Rolla roll, here are the discs I have. Can't review them from memory, but if anyone is curious about one, I'll give it a listen and react.

Sei Duetti a Due Viole, Tactus 751803
Tre Duetti Concertanti, Op.15, Tactus 751802
Duos for Violin and Viola, Pan 10172
3 Duos for Violin and Violincello, CPO 999964
Duetti per Flauto e Violino, Tactus 751801
Trio Concertante, Op.1 (2), Hungaroton 32020
Flute Chamber Music, Dynamic 594

Yes, virtually impossible. Since I usually only buy oddities anyway, I have found myself in the odd position of having 75% of my collection OOP.  :D

I think I have 4 Rolla disks, your Hungaroton seemingly the only one we have in common. I'll check tonight when I get home. I think we have the same music, just different performances of it.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 19, 2011, 07:57:37 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 22, 2011, 12:47:58 PM
I am now very interested in solo piano work from the early 19th century, particularly in sonatas, and my listening has tended towards this genre as of late. Another disk I was blown away by, is this disk:

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-vZtZ9WV/0/O/BoelySonatasSchornsheim.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-T6XgBV6/0/O/BoelyChamMusic.jpg)

It goes without saying how great Christine Schornsheim is in these performances. She plays on two fortepianos, the table piano Érard, 1802 (for the Capricos, op. 2) and the fortepiano Érard 1808, for the sonatas.

This is the first time I had heard of Alexandre Boely (1785-1858) and I dearly hope more of his sonatas are recorded sometime in the near future, or sooner! I have read about him on this board before.

Here is a copy of the review of this recording from musicweb:  Re: see original post for detailed review...


Boely, Alexandre (1785-1858) - Chamber Music w/ Quatuor Mosaiques & Ensemble Baroque de Limoges, Christophe Coin - a number of pages back Leo brought up this French composer in a discussion of his keyboard works w/ Schornsheim - a disc that I acquired immediately and enjoy; my first experience w/ Boely - a brief Wiki bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Pierre_Fran%C3%A7ois_Bo%C3%ABly) -  :D

Well, I decided to pick up the chamber music disc added above w/ an excellent group of performers; includes a variety of works from trios (on organ), string quartet, & sextet - beautifully written music that is well performed and w/ great sound!  Unfortunately, no liner notes are available; instead there is a 24-page PDF file (too large to attach; website - www.ebl-laborie.com/boely.pdf (http://www.ebl-laborie.com/boely.pdf)) - of no use to me because it is all in French but looks like an excellent discussion of not only the works but the performers and their instruments - if anyone out there has a good French-English PDF translation program, I'd appreciate a try; not sure how to get it back on except to split the PDF file into several parts? - thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2011, 04:28:07 AM
Well, along the Italian classicists line, which we seem to be learning more about daily here in the Corner, here is a discovery I made very recently.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Gatti.jpg)

These are some very nice concerti, they mark a clear division from the Baroque style that seemed to hang on in Italy long after it was obsolete elsewhere. I can only suppose that this stems from his time in Salzburg which enabled him to shake off his Italian background, at least for instrumental music. Working daily with the Mozart's and Michael Haydn had to have a modernizing effect on him!   :)

Here is what Grove's has to say:
Gatti, Luigi (Maria Baldassare) (b nr Mantua, 11 June 1740; d Salzburg, 1 March 1817).

Italian composer. He probably received his earliest musical training in Mantua, where his first opera, Alessandro nell'Indie was well received in 1768 and where he became a tenor at the church of S Barbara. The maestro di cappella, G.B. Pattoni, described him as a 'reliable tenor ... as well as a good organist and composer' (29 January 1768). In 1770 he met the Mozarts, then on their first Italian journey, and copied one of Wolfgang's masses (probably k66). In 1773 he competed unsuccessfully to become Pattoni's successor and on 16 July 1779 was appointed vice-maestro of S Barbara. For the inauguration of the Teatro Scientifico, the private theatre of the Reale Accademia of Mantua, he wrote the cantata Virgilio e Manto (1769). He served the academy as secondo maestro until 1783, composing occasional works such as Il certame of 1771 (with dialogue spoken by members of the academy). Even after he left Mantua, his music was performed at the academy: his oratorio La madre dei Maccabei (1775), revised and enlarged, had 14 performances at the Teatro Scientifico in 1793.

In 1778 Salzburg Cathedral began negotiations with Gatti, though he did not want to leave Mantua then for more than two or three months. On 14 February 1783 he became the last Italian Kapellmeister of the Salzburg court and cathedral. Leopold Mozart had sought the post and his disparaging remarks may reflect jealousy (letter to Wolfgang, 12 October 1782). However, Wolfgang showed respect for Gatti when, on 22 January 1783, he asked his father to have Gatti procure an Italian libretto for him. In Salzburg Gatti directed the chapel boys' choir (after 1796), taught composition (his principal student was J.J. Fuetsch), composed much sacred music for the cathedral and compiled a thematic catalogue of the music in its library. He composed a mass based on Haydn's Creation (autograph in I-OS) and also adapted Haydn's oratorio for keyboard. He is mentioned in other Mozart correspondence (1782–6) and in letters of Nannerl to Breitkopf & Härtel (1801–4), when Gatti was helping her locate some of her brother's scores. Gatti also wrote letters to this publisher (1803–6), which before World War II were in their archive.

Few of Gatti's works were published in his lifetime, though a large number are extant in manuscript copies (especially in A-Sd, I-OS and A-KR). A good proportion of these manuscripts are autographs, frequently showing extensive revision. The works reveal a composer of great facility and assuredness. His instrumental pieces have the melodic fluidity and lyricism that would be expected of a composer whose roots lay in vocal, and especially operatic, writing. They contain considerable rhythmic flexibility, and the suavity is enhanced by frequent charming and surprising details. He composed in the forms typical of his time, but achieved a fine variety through changes of texture and rhythm so that phrases are not often repeated exactly. There are also many interesting harmonic excursions, particularly at the beginning of development sections. Gatti had a predilection for the oboe, although he was not trained on that instrument. While there is little interest in virtuosic display, per se, his instrumental parts are always interesting and often challenging. He did not generally explore extremes of range, but his F major oboe quartet (dating from about 1806) takes the oboe part up to g''' and is one of the earliest such passages written for the instrument.

WORKS
opere serie
Alessandro nell'Indie (P. Metastasio), Mantua, Ducal, 24 Jan 1768, P-La, 1 aria I-MAav
Nitteti (Metastasio), Mantua, Ducal, spr. 1773, arias GB-Lbl, D-Dl (2), D-WRtl, I-Bc, Gl, OS, S-Skma
Armida (G. de Gamerra), Mantua, Ducal, 29 Jan 1775, 2 arias D-Dl, 1 aria I-Mc
Olimpiade (Metastasio), Salzburg, Hof, 30 Sept 1775, arias I-Gl, OS*, Tf, P-La (Act 1 only), duet D-WRtl
Antigono (Metastasio), Milan, Scala, 3 Feb 1781, with some music by Anfossi; F-Pc, arias I-Mc, OS*, P-La (Act 3 only)
Demofoonte (Metastasio), Mantua, Ducal, 12 May 1787, arias I-Rsc, S-Skma, quartetto Skma, ?duetto I-MAav

Arias in: A-Wgm, Sca, D-Dl, I-Gl, MAav, Mc, OS; 1 pubd (London, n.d.)

Oratorios
La madre dei Maccabei, Mantua, Scientifico, 2 April 1775; rev. Mantua, Scientifico, 27 Feb 1793; I-OS*, copies Pca, Gl, aria, duet, trio MAav, aria Mc
Il martiro dei SS. Nazario e Celso, Brescia, for completion of church of S Nazarius and S Celsus, 1780; score, pts, Pca*
Il voto di Jefte, 1794, collab. V. Benatti, L. Caruso; OS*
Abel's Tod (after Metastasio), Salzburg, 23 July 1806, possibly perf. in It., Mantua, 1788; OS*, copies A-Wn, I-Gl
Il trionfo di Gedeone, Fc

Other works
Ballets: Germanico in Germania (I. Gambuzzi), Milan, Interinale, 27 Dec 1777; Il ratto delle Sabine (S. Gallet), Mantua, April 1780; La grotta di Merlino, Salzburg, 1808
Cants. and occasional works: Virgilio e Manto, Mantua, Scientifico, 3 Dec 1769; Il certame, Mantua, Scientifico, 1771; Cantata (G.B. Bugnanza), Mantua, Scientifico, for the wedding of Archduke Ferdinand, June or early July 1775; Cantata in lode del Principe Arcivescovo di Olmütz, Mantua, Scientifico, 8 March 1778, I-OS*; L'isola disabitata (cant., Metastasio), Salzburg, 19 Jan 1783; Per il gloriosissimo anniversario del ... ingresso ... in Salisburgo di ... l'Arciduca Ferdinando (cant.), Salzburg, c1804, A-Sca; Cantata per le nozze dell'imperatore Francesco I con Luigia d'Este, 1808, I-OS*; Ino (Ger. text), 1v, pf, Salzburg, 1812; Cantata per il giorno dell'Epifania, Fc*; Ah! se a me fosse concesso (cant.), S, orch, Mantua, MAav; Christus verurtheilet, 4vv, ?Salzburg, OS*; German cant. for Hyeronimus Coloredo, OS*; Il sacrificio ad amore (cant.), OS*; arias in CH-E, D-Dl, HR, WRtl, HR-Zha, I-MAav, Mc, Tf

Sacred: 11 masses: 5 in A-KR, 3 in D-HR, 1 in D-KZa, 1 in OB, 1 in I-OS* (based on Haydn's Creation); 1 Requiem, A-KR; ?4 requiem settings, KR; Ave Maria, 4vv, orch (Florence, n.d.); Ave maris stella, 4vv, HR-Zha, I-PEd, PEsl; Beatus vir, A-KR; Ecce sacerdos magnus, KR; Laudate Dominum, KR; lit, HR-Zha; 2 lits, A-KR; Mane nobiscum Domine, Imf; Meditabor in mandatis, KR; O Jesu mi dulcissime, MS, KR, HR-Zha; O Maria alma, A-KR; O quam suavis est, HR-Zha*, A-KR; O salutaris hostia, CH-E; Offertorium de SS Sacramento, A-FK; Pange lingua, CH-E; Quis Deus magnus, A-KR; Stabat mater, HR-Zha, A-KR; Stupendum, KR; TeD, ed. C.E. Ruzicka (Fort Lauderdale, FL, 1989), Veritas mea, HR-Zha (?2 copies); other works in A-Sd, Wgm, Wn, CH-E, GB-Lbl, I-Bc, Fc, Li, OS, Pca

Inst:
Concs.
, hpd, bn, vn, I-OS*; Conc., hpd, orch, HR-Zha; 2 sinfonie, D-DS; Ouverture, D, I-Mc; Concertone, vn, va, vc, b, 2 ob, 2 hn, orch, MAav; Serenata, 2 vn, ob, 2 hn, bn, str, Salzburg, 1792, OS*; Adagio, ob, orch, OS*; March, fl, str, HR-Zha; 2 Septuor concertante, ob, str, OS*; Sextet, OS; Qnt, ob, str, OS; Qt, ob, str, OS*; Qt, ob, vn, va, bc, dated 1806, A-Sca; Trio, cl, va, vc, I-OS*; Trio, 2 fl, b, HR-Zha;
Divertimenti, 2 fl, b; vn, vc, b; vn, eng hn, hpd, I-OS*; Adagio, org [voce umana], vc, OS;
VI sonate, vn, va, A-Sca*; Sonate, vn, va; fl, va; hp, vc, I-OS*; Sonata terza, fl/vn, vc, hpd, OS*

Altogether a good composer with an interesting history. Worth checking out.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 06:08:46 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 20, 2011, 04:28:07 AM
Well, along the Italian classicists line, which we seem to be learning more about daily here in the Corner, here is a discovery I made very recently.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Gatti.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/GattiChamMusic/1003337014_anM5c-O.jpg)

These are some very nice concerti, they mark a clear division from the Baroque style that seemed to hang on in Italy long after it was obsolete elsewhere.................

Gurn - thanks for the info on Gatti - just have one disc by this composer (inserted above) - basically, wind nonet & sextet w/ strings (4 wind instruments in the larger chamber work; 2 in the other w/ both having a bassoon) - think that I'll put the recording on next -  :D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2011, 06:24:20 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 06:08:46 AM
Gurn - thanks for the info on Gatti - just have one disc by this composer (inserted above) - basically, wind nonet & sextet w/ strings (4 wind instruments in the larger chamber work; 2 in the other w/ both having a bassoon) - think that I'll put the recording on next -  :D  Dave

That's looks good, Dave. Those are the same guys who do the Brandl quintets that we like so much too. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 06:37:41 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 08, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
(http://images.pricerunner.com/product/image/81158417/Adalbert-Gyrowetz-Gyrowetz-Three-String-Quartets-Op-44-Salomon-Quartet.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fSCVjuMiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-BcJXHMP/0/S/GyrowetzSymphonies-S.jpg)

I'm quite fascinated by this disk. The Op.44 Quartets by Adalbert Gyrowetz (1763-1850). Haydnesque in mood, a mature voice, witty, thoughtful musical contrasts, and thoughtful structure are all here, and more. As always with these deep, epic, late classical quartets, the slow movements are a real highlight. The A Flat Major Quartet (No.3) is a fascinating key for such a high classical style work! It sounds brooding, and questioning in nature, with a brooding trio in the minuet too. Fascinating quartet!

Above part of a post from a previous page of this thread - just received 2 additional CDs of this composer's works, i.e. Flute Quartets & Symphonies; now listening to the symphonies (and agree w/ the comments of Gurn) - the flute works are quite charming and well recorded (as expected w/ Audite) - period performances w/ the flute a copy after Grenser, Dresden (ca. 1780) made by Rudolf Tutz (1991).

Gyrowetz has a short bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalbert_Gyrowetz), which does include a listing of his works; he was quite prolific, e.g. over 60 Symphonies, over 60 String Quartets, & 30 Trios (nearly all piano).  He also wrote an autobiography in 1848 which was translated into English as a PhD dissertation (see link) - I've spent a few moments searching the web & Project Gutenberg to see if it might be available for download - no luck but probably some interesting reading -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 20, 2011, 06:47:01 AM
Gurn and Dave, I was listening to Gatti last night, for the first time, and was very moved by what I was hearing. I heard a quartetto (with oboe) and sestetto (with English horn), very beautiful works by a recording featuring the "Zefiro" group. I don't have the capacity to post an image here on my phone, but man, what a fine recording this is.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2011, 07:17:24 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 20, 2011, 06:47:01 AM
Gurn and Dave, I was listening to Gatti last night, for the first time, and was very moved by what I was hearing. I heard a quartetto (with oboe) and sestetto (with English horn), very beautiful works by a recording featuring the "Zefiro" group. I don't have the capacity to post an image here on my phone, but man, what a fine recording this is.

Dadgummit, Leo, I need to find that disk. Maybe you can post some more info later when you are not on the road. I am busy at work myself, but will be around this evening. Sounds interesting!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 07:21:59 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 20, 2011, 07:17:24 AM
Dadgummit, Leo, I need to find that disk. Maybe you can post some more info later when you are not on the road. I am busy at work myself, but will be around this evening. Sounds interesting!

Yep, I was looking earlier today on Amazon USA to see 'what' was available on Gatti; well not much but the disc below is the one I'm assuming Leo is talking about (the only overlap w/ the disc I own is the sextet); however, rather pricey on the Amazon MP here - have not check any places 'across the pond' - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jc1BYlplL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2011, 07:34:19 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 07:21:59 AM
Yep, I was looking earlier today on Amazon USA to see 'what' was available on Gatti; well not much but the disc below is the one I'm assuming Leo is talking about (the only overlap w/ the disc I own is the sextet); however, rather pricey on the Amazon MP here - have not check any places 'across the pond' - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jc1BYlplL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Excellent, thanks Dave. I am a big fan of Zefiro, so I've already learned the hard lesson about their prices... :D  Maybe I'll skip lunches for June... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 20, 2011, 11:24:23 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 07:21:59 AM
Yep, I was looking earlier today on Amazon USA to see 'what' was available on Gatti; well not much but the disc below is the one I'm assuming Leo is talking about (the only overlap w/ the disc I own is the sextet); however, rather pricey on the Amazon MP here - have not check any places 'across the pond' - Dave  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jc1BYlplL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, that's the disk I have! It is really a fine CD, with great performances, and Gatti's work is amazing.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 20, 2011, 11:47:50 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 06:37:41 AM
Above part of a post from a previous page of this thread - just received 2 additional CDs of this composer's works, i.e. Flute Quartets & Symphonies; now listening to the symphonies (and agree w/ the comments of Gurn) - the flute works are quite charming and well recorded (as expected w/ Audite) - period performances w/ the flute a copy after Grenser, Dresden (ca. 1780) made by Rudolf Tutz (1991).

Gyrowetz has a short bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalbert_Gyrowetz), which does include a listing of his works; he was quite prolific, e.g. over 60 Symphonies, over 60 String Quartets, & 30 Trios (nearly all piano).  He also wrote an autobiography in 1848 which was translated into English as a PhD dissertation (see link) - I've spent a few moments searching the web & Project Gutenberg to see if it might be available for download - no luck but probably some interesting reading -  :D

Hey, thanks for that link! Also, thanks for the thoughts in the other recordings, of which I wasn't aware of.

It sure would be nice to get my hands on his audiobiography :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 20, 2011, 11:51:40 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 19, 2011, 07:57:37 AM
Boely, Alexandre (1785-1858) - Chamber Music w/ Quatuor Mosaiques & Ensemble Baroque de Limoges, Christophe Coin - a number of pages back Leo brought up this French composer in a discussion of his keyboard works w/ Schornsheim - a disc that I acquired immediately and enjoy; my first experience w/ Boely - a brief Wiki bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Pierre_Fran%C3%A7ois_Bo%C3%ABly) -  :D

Well, I decided to pick up the chamber music disc added above w/ an excellent group of performers; includes a variety of works from trios (on organ), string quartet, & sextet - beautifully written music that is well performed and w/ great sound!  Unfortunately, no liner notes are available; instead there is a 24-page PDF file (too large to attach; website - www.ebl-laborie.com/boely.pdf (http://www.ebl-laborie.com/boely.pdf)) - of no use to me because it is all in French but looks like an excellent discussion of not only the works but the performers and their instruments - if anyone out there has a good French-English PDF translation program, I'd appreciate a try; not sure how to get it back on except to split the PDF file into several parts? - thanks.  :)


Hey man, I am very happy you like this composer. I love his keyboard music and I will have to get that chamber music disk!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 20, 2011, 01:57:14 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 20, 2011, 11:47:50 AM
Hey, thanks for that link! Also, thanks for the thoughts in the other recordings, of which I wasn't aware of.

It sure would be nice to get my hands on his audiobiography :)

Hi Leo - yes, below is a quote at the end of the Wiki article on Gyrowetz - googled like mad on Renne Anna Illa to see if I could find an e-mail address to send her a message; no luck but others are welcomed to give it a try - would be of great interest!

The 'flute quartets' are certainly worth obtaining - just excellent and varied!  Symphonies good too!   :D Dave

QuoteAutobiography written in 1848, published by Alfred Einstein in 1915. Czech translation Vlastní životopis Vojtěcha Jírovce by František Bartoš published in 1940 by František Topič. Translated into English and edited by Renee Anna Illa, as Ph. D. dissertation, Kent State University.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 21, 2011, 08:43:55 AM
Awesome Philo!  I can't remember what other Haydn works you've heard but if you haven't yet also try the Creation, the Seasons and the Nelson mass. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2011, 08:52:08 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on May 21, 2011, 08:42:11 AM
Finally, finished my Haydn/Mozart listening sessions.

I'm sold on Haydn, but not yet on Mozart (I will be hearing Harnoncourt and Mack-a-rack's renditions soon though.)

After hearing Haydn's last 12 symphonies, I was left with only one question: Beethoven who?

Very pleased to hear that, Philo. It seems from what I have been hearing for the last couple of years, people who actually sit and intentionally listen to Haydn without preconceptions, invariably come away impressed by him. It only took 200 years, but maybe he is finally coming into his own. :)

8)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 21, 2011, 09:48:56 AM
Quote from: Philoctetes on May 21, 2011, 08:42:11 AM
Finally, finished my Haydn/Mozart listening sessions.

I'm sold on Haydn, but not yet on Mozart (I will be hearing Harnoncourt and Mack-a-rack's renditions soon though.)

After hearing Haydn's last 12 symphonies, I was left with only one question: Beethoven who?

Very awesome to hear. As much as I love Mozart's symphonic works, I slightly turn to Haydn's a bit more  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 21, 2011, 10:04:30 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 21, 2011, 08:52:08 AM
Very pleased to hear that, Philo. It seems from what I have been hearing for the last couple of years, people who actually sit and intentionally listen to Haydn without preconceptions, invariably come away impressed by him. It only took 200 years, but maybe he is finally coming into his own. :)

I totally agree. To listen to music objectively, as we do, is the best way to do it.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2011, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 21, 2011, 10:04:30 AM
I totally agree. To listen to music objectively, as we do, is the best way to do it.  ;D

Hard thing to do, apparently. Throw all that "Papa Haydn" shit out the window though and just listen to "some symphonies from the 1790's" and you can hardly help but be impressed. :)

8)

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L'Archibudelli - Schubert Quintet in A for Piano & Strings D 667 1st mvmt - Allegro vivace
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 21, 2011, 11:14:53 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Dec09/Baguer_1cm0210.jpg)

What an enjoyable set of symphonies from one Carles Baguer (1768-1808), whose works are mid-period haydn-like, but with a distinctive style, simple in expression, with very nice wind writing to boot. The melodies are attractive, simple, but subtle too. For me the highlights are the C Minor Symphony, and the slow movement of the Eb Major Symphony, a very strikingly beautiful Adagio.

This recording has fine sound, and the applause after each symphony shows this is a live recording, with very good execution. A fine recommend for those on the outskirts of high classical music  ;)

Here is a review from Musicweb for those interested:

QuoteThere has been something of an industry in recent years in recordings of symphonies by the contemporaries of Mozart and Haydn, many of them previously little more than names. Whilst few have suggested that posterity has got its overall judgment wrong they have brought to light much entertaining and enjoyable music which is worth hearing in itself as well as providing a fascinating context for the works of their better known peers. Chandos have already issued a single disc of Baguer's Symphonies in their 'Contemporaries of Mozart' series. I have not heard it but it only duplicates Symphony No. 16, one of the less striking works on this disc which can therefore be welcomed as providing a useful addition to the catalogue.

Carles Baguer was born in Barcelona in 1768 and became well known in that city for his skills as an organist; indeed he followed his uncle as the cathedral organist when he was only 21 and had already been filling the post informally for nearly three years. About one hundred and fifty of his works survive, about half for organ and the rest including chamber music and an opera as well as twenty Symphonies. The works of Haydn were often played in Catalonia where there was an earlier tradition of writing Italian Overtures or Symphonies. It is the Symphonies of Haydn, especially those from his middle period, which are the most obvious comparison in terms of style with the present works although they are by no means lacking in individuality. In many ways No. 2, the first on the disc, is the most striking. The minor key and terse motifs are reminiscent of Haydn's sturm und drang works, but it has a character all of its own, less fraught than Haydn but well and imaginatively constructed. Symphonies 15 and 16 share these characteristics but are perhaps less memorable and more conventional in their manner, although like all the Symphonies on this disc they are admirably brief and to the point.

The Concerto for two bassoons is a curiosity on account of its scoring and its construction in only two movements - a conventional first movement and a Polacca finale. The two soloists here have both have a delightfully dry tone as well as all the necessary skills for the at times florid writing. If the tone and manner means that much of the result sounds like two elderly gentlemen putting the world to rights in a public bar, the Concerto nonetheless retains its individuality whatever its limitations in terms of musical invention. The Symphony attributed to Haydn - like so many other works of the period - is somewhat conventional in manner and at times even dull, albeit not overlong. Its composer remains uncertain although Baguer is a possibility.

Acadèmia 1750, as the period instrument orchestra is now known, was formed for the Music Festival of Torroella de Montgri. They play stylishly and enthusiastically and are well recorded. The very helpful booklet in Spanish and English with the disc concludes by remarking that Baguer's works "enjoyed the favour of this contemporaries and today they can be heard everywhere". That may be true in Spain I fear that it is scarcely the case elsewhere at present, but perhaps this well played and presented disc will help to rectify this. I certainly hope so as it has left me curious to hear more of his works. Perhaps one of the specialist organ companies might oblige with a selection of his organ music. In the meantime this disc has given me great pleasure.

John Sheppard 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2011, 11:35:20 AM
Ah, a new Baguer disk! About time. I can't even remember how long ago I got this one;

[asin]B000000AZ4[/asin]

In fact, he is so Haydnesque that the final movement of one of his symphonies on this disk (the G major, IIRC) is lifted note for note from one of Haydn's  (#68, IIRC). No matter though, very enjoyable entertainment, I still listen to it from time to time an would welcome some fresh performances of his works. Thanks!

8)

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L'Archibudelli - Schubert Quintet in A for Piano & Strings D 667 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 21, 2011, 11:51:54 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 21, 2011, 11:35:20 AM
Ah, a new Baguer disk! About time. I can't even remember how long ago I got this one;

[asin]B000000AZ4[/asin]

In fact, he is so Haydnesque that the final movement of one of his symphonies on this disk (the G major, IIRC) is lifted note for note from one of Haydn's  (#68, IIRC). No matter though, very enjoyable entertainment, I still listen to it from time to time an would welcome some fresh performances of his works. Thanks!

8)

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L'Archibudelli - Schubert Quintet in A for Piano & Strings D 667 2nd mvmt - Andante

Ah! It's great to know about the disk you have! Thanks for that. Also, how funny Bauger lifted from Haydn note for note in the G Major Symphony you mention  ;D  I agree, this music is very engaging and enjoyable, and just plain fun to listen to!



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 21, 2011, 12:03:35 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KBFnOPQAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am encountering this set of CPE Bach's set of keyboard concerti for the first time, and really love it!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2011, 01:04:45 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 21, 2011, 12:03:35 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61KBFnOPQAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am encountering this set of CPE Bach's set of keyboard concerti for the first time, and really love it!

Oh yes, I completely agree. A highly commendable set. Van Asperen is a reliably high quality player in my experience, and this is some fine music, among CPE Bach's best concerti. :)  I even keep it in my signature!

8)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 21, 2011, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 21, 2011, 01:04:45 PM
Oh yes, I completely agree. A highly commendable set. Van Asperen is a reliably high quality player in my experience, and this is some fine music, among CPE Bach's best concerti. :)  I even keep it in my signature!

8)

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L'Archibudelli - Schubert Quintet in A for Piano & Strings D 667 5th mvmt - Finale: Allegro giusto

I'm only recently getting into CPE Bach and Bach's other sons. It's a great journey to discover Bach's sons, and the different personalities of each in their music.  :)


I'm also listening to Georg Lickl today, his 3 string quartets as played by the authentic quartet, and I'll repost from Dave (on the listening thread from over a year ago):

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 09, 2010, 06:33:44 AM
Lickl, Georg (1769-1843) - String Quartets w/ the Authentic Quartet - Lickl was Austrain and spent about 20 years of his early time in Vienna, studied w/ Albrectsberger & Haydn - these works were composed in the 1790s and are well written; the sound is also recorded well, but this Quartet just does not seem to have the 'spit, polish, and vim'!  I have a handful of their recordings now and am always left wanting other period instrument groups taking a round, such as the Festetics (who did a great job on a CD that I showed yesterday, i.e. Druschetsky SQs!) - now, this group has received some 'mixed' reviews both in this forum and elsewhere - Fanfare Review HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=92171) & Don's Thoughts HERE (http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/h/hgr32220a.php) - bottom line for me; good string writing, well produced, somewhat indifferent and occasionally 'erratic' performances?

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/LicklSQsAuthentic/860507256_EUoJp-O.jpg) 

I'm becoming a big fan of the Authentic Quartet, I love their unrefined sound, their honest performances. There is plenty of action, nuanced playing, and organic tone to go around. I also like how the Lickl disk is recorded.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2011, 01:37:57 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 21, 2011, 01:31:24 PM
I'm only recently getting into CPE Bach and Bach's other sons. It's a great journey to discover Bach's sons, and the different personalities of each in their music.  :)


I'm also listening to Georg Lickl today, his 3 string quartets as played by the authentic quartet, and I'll repost from Dave (on the listening thread from over a year ago):

I'm becoming a big fan of the Authentic Quartet, I love their unrefined sound, their honest performances. There is plenty of action, nuanced playing, and organic tone to go around. I also like how the Lickl disk is recorded.

8)

Yeah, I really like that Lickl disk too. And their Wölfl one, for that matter.  As it happens, I, too, am a big fan of "unrefined sound, (and) honest performances". It makes the music authentically alive and not like Rococo china painting. :)

8)

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L'Archibudelli - Schubert Sonata in a for Piano & Arpeggione D 821 3rd mvmt - Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 22, 2011, 05:58:04 AM
Baguer - don't have any discs of this composer - there were SO MANY back then!  :-\   Will add to my 'wish list' -  :)

Schubert, Franz - Piano Trios et al w/ the Atlantis Trio (Schroder on violin, Crawford on fortepiano, & Sutherland on cello); these are older recordings (1994 & 95) released on the Musica Omnia label - I've been collecting other discs w/ this group on Watchorn's label.  Liner notes are excellent w/ a page on Conrad Graf (maker of the piano) & a page written by the restorer of the ca. 1835 Graf fortepiano #2148 - after 2 yrs of restoration the piano was obtained by Penelope Crawford in 1994.

Now I own these works in just a 2-disc collection w/ the BAT from the 1960s - this newer 2-disc offering (in a single double-disc jewel box size) offers superb integrated playing and great up-front sound; these works have just so much variety from beautiful slow melodies to grave and agitated (and dynamic) movements - the performers are beautifully integrated and the sound recording is excellent.  Short review from MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Sept10/schubert_trios_mo0310.htm).  For those wanting PI performances of the early Romantics, explore this label w/ the Atlantis Trio -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-fsWXX6D/0/O/SchubertPTriosAtlantis.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 22, 2011, 06:40:51 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 22, 2011, 05:58:04 AM
Baguer - don't have any discs of this composer - there were SO MANY back then!  :-\   Will add to my 'wish list' -  :)

Schubert, Franz - Piano Trios et al w/ the Atlantis Trio (Schroder on violin, Crawford on fortepiano, & Sutherland on cello); these are older recordings (1994 & 95) released on the Musica Omnia label - I've been collecting other discs w/ this group on Watchorn's label.  Liner notes are excellent w/ a page on Conrad Graf (maker of the piano) & a page written by the restorer of the ca. 1835 Graf fortepiano #2148 - after 2 yrs of restoration the piano was obtained by Penelope Crawford in 1994.

Now I own these works in just a 2-disc collection w/ the BAT from the 1960s - this newer 2-disc offering (in a single double-disc jewel box size) offers superb integrated playing and great up-front sound; these works have just so much variety from beautiful slow melodies to grave and agitated (and dynamic) movements - the performers are beautifully integrated and the sound recording is excellent.  Short review from MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Sept10/schubert_trios_mo0310.htm).  For those wanting PI performances of the early Romantics, explore this label w/ the Atlantis Trio -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-fsWXX6D/0/O/SchubertPTriosAtlantis.jpg)

Dave, thanks so much for the heads up on the Schubert, as I'm in the market for a PI Schubert Trios set. Since discovering how different and haunting his sonatas sound on the fortepiano, I really would like to hear his trios on a PI recording!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 22, 2011, 06:43:02 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 21, 2011, 07:29:11 PM
Just discovered the "Spanish Mozart" (although, it ought to be the Basque Mozart), Juan Crisóstomo Jacobo Antonio de Arriaga y Balzola (January 27, 1806 – January 17, 1826) "was a Spanish composer. He was nicknamed the "Spanish Mozart" after he died, because, like Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, he was also a child prodigy and an accomplished composer who died young. Whether by coincidence or design, they also shared the same first and second baptismal names; and they shared the same birthday, January 27 (fifty years apart)." [Wikipedia]

I've got a CD of his three string quartets, written when he was 18, but really very good music.

Here's more info from Wiki:

Too bad he died so young, and also that so little of his work survived.  Judging from the quality of the SQs, his nickname is not undeserved.

My recording is this one by the Rasoumovsky Quartet:

(http://di1-3.shoppingshadow.com/images/pi/17/32/43/2002381042-260x260-0-0_Arriaga_String_Quartets_Rasoumovsky_Quartet.jpg) [Actually mine has a different cover, but I couldn't find an image.]

But there are several to choose from.

I almost picked up an Arriaga disk (of the strong quartets) at the used store some time ago, and now wished I did. Thanks for the reminder, because this composer has been on my wish list for some time.

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 22, 2011, 02:29:38 PM
I am about to jump into to this intriguing disk, featuring a composer totally new to me, Manuel Blasco de Nebra (1750-1784).

(http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00325/musrevnebra_325595t.jpg)

Here is a review of this disk by Andrew Clements, The Guardian, Friday 5 February 2010 :

QuoteManuel Blasco de Nebra (1750-1784) was a keyboard player as well as a composer, and an assistant to his father José, who was organist at Seville Cathedral. Manuel is reckoned to have composed around 170 works in his short career, but of those only 30 pieces, all for either harpsichord or fortepiano, survive. Javier Peranes plays eight of them on this beautiful disc, six sonatas and two of the rustic, three-movement pastorelas. Perianes uses a modern concert grand, and shows that while Blasco de Nebra was influenced by the keyboard sonatas of Domenico Scarlatti, most of all – his sonatas all adopt the same two-movement, slow- fast scheme – he was well aware of what was happening musically elsewhere in Europe in the 1770s. Blasco de Nebra's expressive world is far more searching than anything in Scarlatti's 500-odd sonatas: the opening Adagio of his Sonata No 1 in C minor, for instance, sounds almost like a Chopin nocturne, and elsewhere his harmonic world can be a richly mysterious one. Perianes sometimes lards the music with a bit too much of that expressiveness, but otherwise his performances are excellent, communicating a real sense of revelation, of bringing a distinctive composer's voice to a 21st-century audience for the first time.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 22, 2011, 02:34:36 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 22, 2011, 02:29:38 PM
I am about to jump into to this intriguing disk, featuring a composer totally new to me, Manuel Blasco de Nebra (1750-1784).

(http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00325/musrevnebra_325595t.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/NebraCerasi/1165461213_uuuPZ-O.jpg)

Here is a review of this disk by Andrew Clements, The Guardian, Friday 5 February 2010 :

Leo - I have the disc inserted above (right) - remember enjoying the music and the performance quite well - have not added to my 1 CD (yet?) collection of this short-lived composer - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2011, 10:03:16 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 23, 2011, 09:32:32 AM
Attn: All Lovers of Baryton

I have found a fantastic CD of baryton music unlike anything on the well-known and deservedly well-loved Haydn collection.

Abel, Carl Friedrich: Pièces Pour Baryton À Cordes  (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=147490)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/147490.jpg)

The music is virtuostic and very pleasing.  The writing for the strings is also imaginative and it all adds up to one of the most exciting new discoveries I've made in a while.

That's very cool Leon. Abel was a professional (and highly superior) Gambist, so no surprise he wrote excellent works. In addition, he wasn't handicapped by having to write for an amateur. I think this is a must buy. Thanks for the tip. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 23, 2011, 01:59:17 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 23, 2011, 10:03:16 AM
That's very cool Leon. Abel was a professional (and highly superior) Gambist, so no surprise he wrote excellent works. In addition, he wasn't handicapped by having to write for an amateur. I think this is a must buy. Thanks for the tip. :)

Gurn - totally agree and already ordered on my end!  ;D   Thanks, Leon for the find & thumbs up!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2011, 04:02:03 PM
Quote from: Leon on May 23, 2011, 03:04:32 PM
In closer listening, what this is is solo baryton.  But when I first heard it I thought there were pizzicato strings on one piece which sounded like a nice effect, but what it's really the baryton played pizzicato.  The title that I thought was "baryton and strings" is really "pieces for string baryton".  Still, it is wonderful music played extremely well.

Sorry for misleading you guys.    :'(

:D  (please excuse my chuckle). First timer I heard a baryton I thought it was a duet between a cello and a guitar. My reading about it had said that the backside strings played sympathetically, but in fact this player was picking them (with his thumb?). And it sounded like a guitar. Anyway, my surmise it that you got taken in precisely the same way I did. Haydn very rarely wrote any pizzicato because the prince wasn't up for it. It will be nice to hear this Abel for a different take on the instrument.

BTW, here is a very fine disk of Abel's solo gamba works.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/AbelSoloGambacover.jpg)

He must have been a very talented player. :)

8)


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L'Archibudelli - Bia 153 Op 9 Trios (3) for Strings (HIP) #1 in G 3rd mvmt - Scherzo: Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 23, 2011, 04:14:31 PM
I feel tempted by that cd... but uh I still haven't finished the baryton set in the Haydn edition...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2011, 04:19:07 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 23, 2011, 04:14:31 PM
I feel tempted by that cd... but uh I still haven't finished the baryton set in the Haydn edition...

::)  Man, you are so far behind the times!   :D   I've only been through the entire set once, although I have listened to various pieces several times each. I already had some favorites from the John Hsu disks. :)

8)

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Now playing:
L'Archibudelli - Bia 153 Op 9 Trios (3) for Strings #2 in D 4th mvmt - Rondo: Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 23, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
Well I did listen to the octets a few times and other divertimenti... but the rest just a few cds... I gotta remedy that. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2011, 04:32:58 PM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 23, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
Well I did listen to the octets a few times and other divertimenti... but the rest just a few cds... I gotta remedy that. ;D

Ah, went right for the good stuff!  As it happens, I have 3 versions of the octets. I like 'em. 0:)

8)

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Now playing:
L'Archibudelli - Bia 153 Op 9 Trios (3) for Strings (HIP) #3 in c 2nd mvmt - Adagio con espressione
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 24, 2011, 07:19:28 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 23, 2011, 04:02:03 PM
:D  (please excuse my chuckle). First timer I heard a baryton I thought it was a duet between a cello and a guitar. My reading about it had said that the backside strings played sympathetically, but in fact this player was picking them (with his thumb?). And it sounded like a guitar. Anyway, my surmise it that you got taken in precisely the same way I did. Haydn very rarely wrote any pizzicato because the prince wasn't up for it. It will be nice to hear this Abel for a different take on the instrument.

BTW, here is a very fine disk of Abel's solo gamba works.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/AbelSoloGambacover.jpg)


Well, I ordered the Abel disc on baryton from the link, i.e. Arkiv Music, and the description of the performer(s) is shown below, so I assumed that these were 'solo' works w/ use of the sympathetic strings on the instrument.  I have the disc pictured by Gurn above - Abel's writing is just virtuosic and well performed by Heinrich - I suspect the baryton compositions will be of the same quality (and also well done from Leon's description!).   Dave  :)

Work(s) by Karl Friedrich Abel
Performer:  Philippe Foulon (Baryton)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 03:45:14 AM
I can't keep up with you guys! By the time I'm ready to post something, you're all 3 topics ahead!

Re. Gyrowetz fours, I've wanted that disc for some time, but I think I'l wait till it's rereleased on Helios, which it's bound to be.

Re. Lickl fours, this is fine Viennese chamber played with energy and recorded nice and dry.  Good stuff.

Re. Wolfl fours, the Authentic disc is good, but there's one at least as good on Caro Mitis (32006), which label also has a disc with 2 of his symphonies and a duet for cello and fortepiano (22005). Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, what's all this about the baryton? :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 25, 2011, 07:16:17 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 03:45:14 AM
Now, what's all this about the baryton? :)

LOL!  ;D  Concerning the baryton, take a look in the 'Old Musical Instrument' thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.msg294434/topicseen.html#msg294434) (reply #30) - there is also discussion scattered in the Haydn threads and possibly in this thread!   :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 07:58:41 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 25, 2011, 07:16:17 AM
LOL!  ;D  Concerning the baryton, take a look in the 'Old Musical Instrument' thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.msg294434/topicseen.html#msg294434) (reply #30) - there is also discussion scattered in the Haydn threads and possibly in this thread!   :)

Well, I was being nice, in the old meaning of the word. I know what a baryton is. I have the Geringas Trio's recording of Haydn baryton trios on CPO 9990942. The music is typical of early Haydn, much like his conventional string trios, and to some degree dumbed down so the Duke or Count or whatever he was could play them. The instrument itself recalls to me the sound of folk music played on acoustic guitar and string bass, a thump-echo-overtone sort of thing.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2011, 08:11:59 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 07:58:41 AM
Well, I was being nice, in the old meaning of the word. I know what a baryton is. I have the Geringas Trio's recording of Haydn baryton trios on CPO 9990942. The music is typical of early Haydn, much like his conventional string trios, and to some degree dumbed down so the Duke or Count or whatever he was could play them. The instrument itself recalls to me the sound of folk music played on acoustic guitar and string bass, a thump-echo-overtone sort of thing.

What string trio recordings do you have, Chas?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 25, 2011, 08:11:59 AM
What string trio recordings do you have, Chas?  :)

8)

All six volumes of the Divertimentos for String Trio by the Vienna Philharmonia Trio on Camerata. Some volumes might still be in print, but at least some and probably most are deleted now. They look like this:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/cameratacm28043.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 08:41:30 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 25, 2011, 08:21:49 AM
Re: Baryton

Chazz, I think you are being unfair to the instrument, and if you would like to invest a small amount in a reappraisal effort, I'd suggest going for the Abel disc discussed above which is for solo baryton, but played far beyond the limited capacity you described.

8)

I have no wish to besmirch the baryton (or folk music!). The Abel is now on my look-for list.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2011, 09:50:30 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 08:38:03 AM
All six volumes of the Divertimentos for String Trio by the Vienna Philharmonia Trio on Camerata. Some volumes might still be in print, but at least some and probably most are deleted now. They look like this:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/cameratacm28043.jpg)

Ah. I have the first 4 disks in that series (5 & 6 are unattainable at this point), and also the 2 disks by Camerata Berolinensis on period instruments.

I don't find them to be overly simplistic, nor in any way 'practice' for his string quartets (I know you didn't say that, though it has certainly been said). Actually they have an abundance of musical ideas and express them well. Bearing in mind, of course, that they have no precedent to build on. I wish they were more easily attainable. As it turned out, they were the last piece in the Haydn puzzle for me!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 10:06:32 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 25, 2011, 09:50:30 AM
I don't find them to be overly simplistic, nor in any way 'practice' for his string quartets (I know you didn't say that, though it has certainly been said). Actually they have an abundance of musical ideas and express them well. Bearing in mind, of course, that they have no precedent to build on. I wish they were more easily attainable. As it turned out, they were the last piece in the Haydn puzzle for me!   :)

8)

You're preachin' to the choir, brother! Here's a little review of volume 4 from David Hurwitz:

As with previous volumes in this series, these almost completely unfamiliar early Haydn works (though very popular in their day) are a constant source of pleasure as well as remarkable formal variety. No. 19, for example, follows the pattern Allegro/Minuet/Presto, and the music has a freshness and rhythmic interest (in the finale) that will have you thinking of Stravinsky's Pulcinella. No. 22 starts with a gorgeous Adagio Siciliano, followed by an Allegro and a concluding Minuet. The last two works on the disc, Nos. 23 and 24, are two-movement works (Moderato-Minuet), possibly intended for students, but no less attractive for that.

The only quibble I have with these performances is that the minuets could be taken somewhat quicker, or at least with perhaps a sharper rhythmic profile. That aside, the playing of the Viennese musicians leaves very little to be desired. Slow movements are particularly beautiful, warm and singing, while the engineering is very natural and unobtrusive. These Japanese discs are difficult to find now outside of Japan, but if you come across them they deserve serious consideration. [5/11/2009]

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 10:20:02 AM
On the subject of obscure Haydn, what do people think of the folksong arrangements on Brilliant (by Anderson, MacDougall and the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt)?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2011, 10:42:57 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 25, 2011, 10:34:07 AM
I think they are fantastic.

:)

Me too. If I am going to listen to traditional folk tunes, I'd as soon hear them like that. I also have all the ones that Beethoven did for Thomson. They are quite interesting too, although only 7 disks worth and not 18!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2011, 11:35:15 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 25, 2011, 10:50:10 AM
Hmmm, I had no idea that Beethoven got into the act as well.   ;)   Are they still available?   Brilliant, too?

EDIT: found them - DG

8)

[asin]B0002IRY0E[/asin]

Yes, that is what I have. They are very nicely done. I don't know if there are any other recordings of the entire, since I believe that these are the same performances that DG used in the Complete Beethoven Edition.

Hummel was another who set a whole lot of these, and Neukomm (who of course did a few in Haydn's name) also did some on his own. There is also one other that I will remember as soon as I hit the "Post" button...  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on May 25, 2011, 11:37:00 AM
That's the castle used in the last scene of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, isn't it?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2011, 11:43:33 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2011, 11:37:00 AM
That's the castle used in the last scene of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, isn't it?

ARTHUR:  The Castle Aggh.  Our quest is at an end!  God be praised!
      Almighty God, we thank Thee that Thou hast [something] safe
      [something] the most-
      [twong  baaaa]
      Jesus Christ!
  GUARD:  'Allo, daffy English kaniggets and Monsieur Arthur-King, who
      is afraid of a duck, you know!  So, we French fellows out-wit you a
      second time!
  ARTHUR:  How dare you profane this place with your presence!?  I command
      you, in the name of the Knights of Camelot, to open the doors of this
      sacred castle, to which God himself has guided us!
  GUARD:  How you English say, I one more time-a unclog my nose in your
      direction, sons of a window-dresser!  So, you think you could
      out-clever us French folk with your silly knees-bent running about
      advancing behavior! I wave my private parts at your aunties, you
      heaving lot of second-hand electric donkey bottom biters.
  ARTHUR:  In the name of the Lord, we demand entrance to this sacred
      castle!
  GUARD:  No chance, English bedwetting types.  I burst my pimples at you
      and call your daughter an unrequested silly thing.  You tiny-brained
      wipers of other people's bottoms!

That castle?

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on May 25, 2011, 11:49:50 AM
The same!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 25, 2011, 11:54:59 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 25, 2011, 10:34:07 AM
I think they are fantastic.

:)

I did up a little anthology of my favourites tracks, as follows.
Here Awa is a peerless masterpiece, dammit! or so say I.

1. Thro' the Woods, Laddie
2. Down the Burn, Davie
3. The Sutor's Daughter
4. Peggy, I Must Love Thee
5. The Minstrel
6. Muirland Willie
7. The Soldier Laddie
8. Mary's Dream
9. Maggie Lauder
10. Ay Waking, O!
11. Here Awa There Awa
12. What Ails This Heart of Mine
13. The Border Widow's Lament
14. My Nanie
15. The Parson Boasts of Mild Ale
16. Johny Macgill
17. New Year's Gift
18. The Poor Pedlar
19. The Song of the Old Man of the Wood
20. Adieu to My Juvenile Days
21. Venture Gwen
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2011, 06:29:04 AM
Bought this book yesterday, it's in the mail. I have found it a challenge sometimes to get information on keyboard instruments; Google can lead you down some paths better left untrodden. :)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0804745498.01.L.jpg)

Hopefully having a good reference book at hand will make things more interesting and enjoyable for me. I'll report back on it, it may be of interest to some others here. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 06:37:04 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 26, 2011, 06:29:04 AM
I'll report back on it, it may be of interest to some others here. :)

Please do.

BTW, have you encountered any book dealing, even tangential, with the shift from violin to keyboard as the main instrument for composing and experimenting and its implications for the whole history of music? I stumbled upon this idea in a Yehudi Menuhin book (The Music of Man, or something like that), found it very interetsing but unfortunately he doesn't elaborate it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 06:47:56 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 26, 2011, 06:45:52 AM
[...]Beethoven played both piano and violin, very well, [...]

Beethoven a very good violinist? I had no idea about that.  :)

Are you sure, though?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2011, 06:58:42 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 06:47:56 AM
Beethoven a very good violinist? I had no idea about that.  :)

Are you sure, though?

He had 2 jobs in the Elector's orchestra while growing up: he was the backup organist and he played the viola in the orchestra. My guess is that if he was a good violist (he was, by all accounts) then he was at least a competent fiddler.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2011, 07:09:20 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 06:37:04 AM
Please do.

BTW, have you encountered any book dealing, even tangential, with the shift from violin to keyboard as the main instrument for composing and experimenting and its implications for the whole history of music? I stumbled upon this idea in a Yehudi Menuhin book (The Music of Man, or something like that), found it very interetsing but unfortunately he doesn't elaborate it.

Not so much specifically about that, but tangentially, yes. I'll have a look around tonight and see what I can find. :)

I know it was pretty much an Austrian thing. Haydn and Mozart wrote every lick of their music at the keyboard. I wouldn't necessarily agree with Leon about Haydn's capabilities as a pianist. He was very competent. As he was on the violin. He says of himself that he was no virtuoso, however others say he was very good indeed. In any case, when Mozart moved to Vienna, he wrote to his father that "Hier ist doch gewis das Clavierland!"  ("Here is the Land of the Piano!"), which says to me that the Cult of Pianism already held sway there. At that time, "Italy" was still dominated by the violin. My personal inference from this is that the reason that High Classical Style was mainly a Viennese thing, and the center of music moved from Italy to Austria, is that the keyboard came to the front rank instead of being a support mechanism.

That's my opinion, I may be wrong. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 07:14:15 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 26, 2011, 07:09:20 AM
My personal inference from this is that the reason that High Classical Style was mainly a Viennese thing, and the center of music moved from Italy to Austria, is that the keyboard came to the front rank instead of being a support mechanism.

That's Menuhin's thesis as well.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2011, 07:15:28 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 07:14:15 AM
That's Menuhin's thesis as well.

He was a wise man.  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 07:17:22 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 26, 2011, 07:15:28 AM
He was a wise man.  0:)

Of course, after all he was Enescu's pupil.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 26, 2011, 07:22:25 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 07:17:22 AM
Of course, after all he was Enescu's pupil.  :D

Ha!  It comes back to Enescu! ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 08:01:35 AM
Quote from: mozartfan on May 26, 2011, 07:22:25 AM
Ha!  It comes back to Enescu! ;D

Enesco, actually.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2011, 08:02:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 08:01:35 AM
Enesco, actually.  :D

That's some UN agency, isn't it?  ???

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 26, 2011, 08:03:42 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 26, 2011, 08:02:40 AM
That's some UN agency, isn't it?  ???

Hah!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 26, 2011, 02:50:00 PM
Quote from: mozartfan on May 26, 2011, 07:22:25 AM
Ha!  It comes back to Enescu! ;D

Yep!  :D  For those interested, check out the photos of in the Enescu thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6059.20.html) way back in 2008!

Gurn - that looks like an interesting book on the history of the piano (which has occasionally been a big topic of discussion here!) - not sure why 'Giraffes & Black Dragons' appears in the title, but I'm going to check Amazon for some pricing - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on May 26, 2011, 03:46:42 PM
Thanks Dave, looks like an interesting but brief thread.  Perhaps MI will pump that thread up like he did with Koechlin. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2011, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 26, 2011, 02:50:00 PM
Yep!  :D  For those interested, check out the photos of in the Enescu thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6059.20.html) way back in 2008!

Gurn - that looks like an interesting book on the history of the piano (which has occasionally been a big topic of discussion here!) - not sure why 'Giraffes & Black Dragons' appears in the title, but I'm going to check Amazon for some pricing - Dave  :D

Dave,
I think those were models of keyboards. Odd, eh?   I used the ISBN number in the ASIN function and it gave me the cover picture but no link. I got it "Used - Like New" for $20. A bargain!   :)

8)

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Now playing:
The English Concert \ Andrew Manze - K 525 Serenade #13 in G 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 26, 2011, 04:52:30 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 26, 2011, 06:29:04 AM
Bought this book yesterday, it's in the mail. I have found it a challenge sometimes to get information on keyboard instruments; Google can lead you down some paths better left untrodden. :)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0804745498.01.L.jpg)

Hopefully having a good reference book at hand will make things more interesting and enjoyable for me. I'll report back on it, it may be of interest to some others here. :)

8)

I look forward to your thoughts on this book! Looks like my cup of tea  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2011, 04:56:41 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 26, 2011, 04:52:30 PM
I look forward to your thoughts on this book! Looks like my cup of tea  8)

Soon, hopefully. It is published by Stanford University Press, so at the least I expect accuracy.   :)

8)

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Now playing:
The English Concert \ Andrew Manze - K 546 Adagio & Fugue in c pt 2 - Fugue
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 26, 2011, 05:41:53 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 23, 2011, 04:02:03 PM
:D  (please excuse my chuckle). First timer I heard a baryton I thought it was a duet between a cello and a guitar. My reading about it had said that the backside strings played sympathetically, but in fact this player was picking them (with his thumb?). And it sounded like a guitar. Anyway, my surmise it that you got taken in precisely the same way I did. Haydn very rarely wrote any pizzicato because the prince wasn't up for it. It will be nice to hear this Abel for a different take on the instrument.

BTW, here is a very fine disk of Abel's solo gamba works.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/AbelSoloGambacover.jpg)

He must have been a very talented player. :)

8)


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Now playing:
L'Archibudelli - Bia 153 Op 9 Trios (3) for Strings (HIP) #1 in G 3rd mvmt - Scherzo: Allegro

Speaking of Abel, this is a Viola de Gamba disk I have, and I'm listening now...so rapturous and stunning!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ftAGNw0Bavk/TdVB4ASANwI/AAAAAAAAAps/pxX7jnJ6IcE/s320/front.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 26, 2011, 09:30:05 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 26, 2011, 05:41:53 PM
Speaking of Abel, this is a Viola de Gamba disk I have, and I'm listening now...so rapturous and stunning!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ftAGNw0Bavk/TdVB4ASANwI/AAAAAAAAAps/pxX7jnJ6IcE/s320/front.jpg)

I was actually a bit dissapointed by that disc....by the music, to be more precise.

Quote from: ~ Que ~ on March 20, 2010, 06:14:20 AM
It proofed as disappointing this time around. Despite Pandolfo's enthusiasm for Abel's music in the liner notes and despite the great performance and recording quality, the music simply fails to convince. Abel tries to built on the foundations of the French baroque gamba tradition music that fits in the newer transitional Baroque-Classical style, and fails. It sounds laborious, unfocused, uninspired and indistinctive.

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 27, 2011, 04:14:34 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 26, 2011, 09:30:05 PM
I was actually a bit dissapointed by that disc....by the music, to be more precise.


Tell us how you really feel, Que... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 27, 2011, 08:17:42 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 27, 2011, 04:14:34 AM

Tell us how you really feel, Que... :D

8)

Dissapointed by spending money on a CD I didn't like... :'( ;D And I adore Pandolfo! :o 0:)


OK, OK, guys - I'll give it another listen this weekend. :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on May 29, 2011, 05:59:13 AM
I thought I'd "get into the game" of this forum by posting some of my recent downloads. The first is a clavichord recording by Mathieu Dupouy. I'm enjoying it a lot. I thought I'd throw up this new-ish Soler recording by Pieter-Jan Belder. Belder is playing an early fortepiano on this recording (sorry I don't know what make it is). For some reason I have Soler classified as Baroque on my playlists. However, I think this particular recording shows an earlier example of Sonatas in the classical form (here I'm stretching the length of my knowledge - as it were). I'm really enjoying these recordings. (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ChLTWlo%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iVklPJRvL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on May 29, 2011, 06:01:07 AM
I hope I'm in the right period for the recordings I posted.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 29, 2011, 06:04:13 AM
Quote from: milk on May 29, 2011, 06:01:07 AM
I hope I'm in the right period for the recordings I posted.

I think so! :)

Gurn's speciality is the early Classical "transitional period", bridging the Baroque and Classical periods. Under his influence I'm under its spell too, though I came from the opposite direction!  :D (Baroque)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 29, 2011, 06:24:01 AM
Quote from: milk on May 29, 2011, 05:59:13 AM
I thought I'd "get into the game" of this forum by posting some of my recent downloads. The first is a clavichord recording by Mathieu Dupouy. I'm enjoying it a lot. I thought I'd throw up this new-ish Soler recording by Pieter-Jan Belder. Belder is playing an early fortepiano on this recording (sorry I don't know what make it is). For some reason I have Soler classified as Baroque on my playlists. However, I think this particular recording shows an earlier example of Sonatas in the classical form (here I'm stretching the length of my knowledge - as it were). I'm really enjoying these recordings. (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ChLTWlo%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iVklPJRvL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Those look like some fine recordings! And that Soler disk looks like my cup of tea, since I'm collecting keyboard sonatas from this era.

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 29, 2011, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 29, 2011, 06:24:01 AM
Those look like some fine recordings! And that Soler disk looks like my cup of tea, since I'm collecting keyboard sonatas from this era.

;D

I'd strongly recommend Belder's Soler series - fantastic.  :) Belder at his best IMO (so far).

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 06:30:25 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 29, 2011, 06:27:38 AM
I'd strongly recommend Belder's Soler series - fantastic.  :) Belder at his best IMO (so far).

Q

I concur: the best Soler in town.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 29, 2011, 06:33:25 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 27, 2011, 04:01:49 AM
I am listening right now to these by Abel

[asin]B000000AHY[/asin]  [asin]B000001RWM[/asin]  [asin]B0000045KF[/asin]   (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/147490.jpg)

And do not share your opinion about the music.

:)

I have the top two of those Abel disks and have returned to them as well. His solo Gamba works sound much more serious than his symphonies and concertos  :o  Perhaps it's the nature of chamber music, that brings out a different Abel, that I'm hearing in Pandolfo's Drexel Manuscript recording discussed above.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 29, 2011, 06:42:02 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 29, 2011, 06:27:38 AM
I'd strongly recommend Belder's Soler series - fantastic.  :) Belder at his best IMO (so far).

Q

Awesome, I will check Belder's Soler series out!

The only disk of Soler I have is the Naxos release of Soler's Sonatas, Vol.1 with Gilbert Rowland. I really like it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JGJ2fIebL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 29, 2011, 06:33:25 AM
I have the top two of those Abel disks and have returned to them as well. His solo Gamba works sound much more serious than his symphonies and concertos  :o  Perhaps it's the nature of chamber music, that brings out a different Abel, that I'm hearing in Pandolfo's Drexel Manuscript recording discussed above.

I love that seriousness, but I guess it's simply the nature of the viola da gamba as a soloist instrument. It's a nostalgic instrument, a sort of good-bye or slow departure, frequently thought like the instrumental version of the human voice. I think this feature is probably stressed in Abel, the last gambist of his age, being the viola da gamba an old-fashioned instrument in the second middle of the XVIII Century.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2011, 07:04:24 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 29, 2011, 06:42:02 AM
Awesome, I will check Belder's Soler series out!

The only disk of Soler I have is the Naxos release of Soler's Sonatas, Vol.1 with Gilbert Rowland. I really like it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JGJ2fIebL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510PZuWB-lL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Hi Leo - I have Belder's first 2 volumes (4 discs); on Amazon there are now Vols. 3 & 4 being offered!

Another 'fun' disc is a single w/ Maggie Cole on Virgin (my cover is different and an older one) - she plays about half the works on the recording on a fortepiano and the others on a harpsichord - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 29, 2011, 07:10:44 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 06:48:45 AM
I love that seriousness, but I guess it's simply the nature of the viola da gamba as a soloist instrument. It's a nostalgic instrument, a sort of good-bye or slow departure, frequently thought like the instrumental version of the human voice. I think this feature is probably stressed in Abel, the last gambist of his age, being the viola da gamba an old-fashioned instrument in the second middle of the XVIII Century.  :)


I love that seriousness too. I have a modest collection of Gamba recordings, and love the tone of the instrument.  You are right about it being an instrument of nostalgia, a thought I haven't had about the tone before, but I strongly agree now!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 29, 2011, 07:12:03 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2011, 07:04:24 AM
Hi Leo - I have Belder's first 2 volumes (4 discs); on Amazon there are now Vols. 3 & 4 being offered!

Another 'fun' disc is a single w/ Maggie Cole on Virgin (my cover is different and an older one) - she plays about half the works on the recording on a fortepiano and the others on a harpsichord - Dave  :D

Dave, thanks for the heads up on the Maggie Cole!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 29, 2011, 07:25:36 AM
I am in an early sonata mood this morning, and after hearing Soler, I turned to this wonderful disk, Sonatas by Johan Agrell (1701-1765):

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl300/l359/l359399630m.jpg)

The music is Galant, but not just pretty on the outside. There is an undercurrent of melancholy, or thoughtfulness in the sound of the melodies and harmony. Perhaps this is what Eva Nordernfelt brings to the music, whatever it is, this recording is beautiful. I wish I knew the providence of the Harpsichord, it sounds ravishing.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/J.J.Agrell.jpg/220px-J.J.Agrell.jpg)

Quickie from the Wiki:

QuoteJohan Agrell (1 February 1701 – 19 January 1765) was a late German/Swedish baroque composer.
He was born in Löth, Östergötland, a province in Sweden and studied in Uppsala. By 1734 he was a violinist at the Kassel court, travelling in England, France, Italy and elsewhere. From 1746 onward, he was Kapellmeister in Nuremberg. He wrote occasional vocal works and numerous symphonies, harpsichord concertos and sonatas, many of which were published. He was a fluent composer in the north German galant style of the time, and is also an appreciated musician and conductor. In a book by Per Lindfors, it is said that Agrell composed a total of at least 22 symphonies. He died at Nuremberg.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2011, 08:10:47 AM
I haven't those Soler's, but rather these disks on Pierre Verany label played by Jean Brosse;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31WZSEH1C8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Excuse the poor quality scan... nonetheless, there is nothi8ng poor quality about the playing. His Fandango is excellent! I am going to check out the Belder though. I have enjoyed his playing in some other things (Scarlatti & Bach).

I see we have a new contributor, wonderful! Welcome, Milk. Even though I have no taste for your eponymous dairy product, it is nice to have you here. :D


You may recall that recently I recommended a book to Leo, which was The Sonata in the Classic Era by William Newman. As is my weakness, of course I began to reread it as soon as I had it in my hands. And as is also my weakness, I began to order disks to fill up spaces in my listening.

So these are now on the way. It seems that one of them has been mentioned before, by Sonic Dave, IIRC.

[asin]B0031O7UYG[/asin]
Yes, by the inventor of the Alberti Bass! Last time I read the book, there was no recording of his music. Now there is this one.
[asin]B0015P2FQG[/asin]
Galuppi was famous for opera but also wrote well over 100 keyboard sonatas.

And finally, this one here.
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/nov99/ewwolf.jpg)
What, no Amazon link?  No, I had to track down the performer and order it directly from him (he's probably got a closet full!). It should be here very soon. Wolf was a student of CPE Bach and wrote in a similar style. I understand that he was very inventive and melodic, a great combination!

Here is something you should never do if you want to conserve your resources. Never get a first-class book that recommends things that you already like. I'm still in the first chapter... :-\     :D

8)




----------------
Now playing:
Leipzig Gewandhaus \ Konwitschny - Op 125 symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 29, 2011, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 29, 2011, 08:10:47 AM
I haven't those Soler's, but rather these disks on Pierre Verany label played by Jean Brosse;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31WZSEH1C8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Excuse the poor quality scan... nonetheless, there is nothi8ng poor quality about the playing. His Fandango is excellent! I am going to check out the Belder though. I have enjoyed his playing in some other things (Scarlatti & Bach).

I see we have a new contributor, wonderful! Welcome, Milk. Even though I have no taste for your eponymous dairy product, it is nice to have you here. :D


You may recall that recently I recommended a book to Leo, which was The Sonata in the Classic Era by William Newman. As is my weakness, of course I began to reread it as soon as I had it in my hands. And as is also my weakness, I began to order disks to fill up spaces in my listening.

So these are now on the way. It seems that one of them has been mentioned before, by Sonic Dave, IIRC.

[asin]B0031O7UYG[/asin]
Yes, by the inventor of the Alberti Bass! Last time I read the book, there was no recording of his music. Now there is this one.
[asin]B0015P2FQG[/asin]
Galuppi was famous for opera but also wrote well over 100 keyboard sonatas.

And finally, this one here.
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/nov99/ewwolf.jpg)
What, no Amazon link?  No, I had to track down the performer and order it directly from him (he's probably got a closet full!). It should be here very soon. Wolf was a student of CPE Bach and wrote in a similar style. I understand that he was very inventive and melodic, a great combination!

Here is something you should never do if you want to conserve your resources. Never get a first-class book that recommends things that you already like. I'm still in the first chapter... :-\     :D

8)




----------------
Now playing:
Leipzig Gewandhaus \ Konwitschny - Op 125 symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

Nice!

I would like to track the Wolf recording down sometime, that is right up my alley. I also need to hear Alberti yet  ;D

As for Galuppi, he is a recent discovery for me too, here are the recordings I am enjoying of his work, played by Ilario Gregoletto on a harpischord:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/040/49089.jpg)(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl600/l688/l68898st8mp.jpg)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2011, 11:30:41 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 29, 2011, 10:50:10 AM
Nice!

I would like to track the Wolf recording down sometime, that is right up my alley. I also need to hear Alberti yet  ;D

As for Galuppi, he is a recent discovery for me too, here are the recordings I am enjoying of his work, played by Ilario Gregoletto on a harpischord:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/040/49089.jpg)(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl600/l688/l68898st8mp.jpg)

Leo,
Yes, I'm looking forward to that one, since when I first read the book I tried to find something back then too, to no avail. Now one with a clavichord!

Those Galuppi recordings look good. I've never heard of that label (which means nothing, of course), do they specialize in this area? That is, 18th century Italian music. That's what I like about Tactus, they very much specialize. Well, I'll let you know about these when I get them. Sonic Dave probably has them all already. He has become Our American Harry here of late... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing: Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 01 090 Symphony #90 in C 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro assai (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/tafelmusik+++bruno+weil+-+hob+01+090+symphony+%2390+in+c+1st+mvmt+-+adagio/track/allegro+assai)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 29, 2011, 11:46:46 AM
More Galuppi of interest:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P8YDV87SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JlwlRyjwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2011, 02:28:01 PM
Below (i.e. at the bottom) is a post I left in this thread about a month ago regarding Luigi Merci - well, I picked up the bassoon recording and have really enjoyed the performances; the liner notes were not clear on the 'type' of instrument used by Paolo Tognon; so, I sent e-mails to Tactus & to the performer and finally today received a response - great!  :D

Immediately below is a portion of the information sent me by Mr. Tognon, who performs the bassoon parts on each of these Merci CDs - as I expected this is indeed a Baroque bassoon and appears to be a reconstructed one by Oliver Cottet after one from the mid-18th century.  For me this makes these discs even more special, esp. if you're a lover of the bassoon!  Dave  :)

QuoteOf course I used a baroque bassoon, as you can read into the booklet of the two CD's. My baroque bassoon is a copy made by the french woodwind maker O. Cottet realized on 1995 after an original one preserved in Paris originally from 1760 ca.


Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2011, 07:11:23 AM
Merci, Luigi (c. 1695-1750) - Late Baroque/early classical music periods - just perusing the Tactus offerings at BRO (Berkshire Record Outlet) and saw the one below of the Flute Sonatas, Op. 1 - i.e. flute w/ b.c., which includes 2 instruments, a bassoon and a harpsichord (w/ Roberto Loreggian) - completely 'new' composer to me - he ended up in London for much of his adult life (last name listed at times in the liner notes as Mercy).  Flute playing is immaculate and the recording sound superb (and $5 from BRO)!

The other Tactus disc of this composer that intrigues me is added below (right), i.e. Bassoon Sonatas, Op. 3; same bassoon performer, i.e. Paolo Tognon, but on the Amazon listings, there are 5 players per work - just over $8 on the MPlace - might take a chance?   :D


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MerciTriosOp1/1261316656_WPDGnQs-O.jpg)  (http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/77/1127777.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on May 29, 2011, 02:32:06 PM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 29, 2011, 06:27:38 AM
I'd strongly recommend Belder's Soler series - fantastic.  :) Belder at his best IMO (so far).

Q
I was surprised and interested to find Belder switching to the fortepiano. Are there many other recordings of Soler on the fortepiano? I have a few of his predecessor Scarlatti on fortepiano.  Anyway, it is a lovely sounding recording.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2011, 02:48:50 PM
Quote from: milk on May 29, 2011, 02:32:06 PM
I was surprised and interested to find Belder switching to the fortepiano. Are there many other recordings of Soler on the fortepiano? I have a few of his predecessor Scarlatti on fortepiano.  Anyway, it is a lovely sounding recording.

Hi Milk - if you may be referring to my post - Belder (at least in the first 2 volumes that I own) is on the harpsichord; the recording w/ Maggie Cole (just 1 disc) splits her playing of selected sonatas between the fortepiano & harpsichord evenly, so an interesting recording.  NOW, are there other recordings of Soler performed on the fortepiano, I'm not sure?   :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 06:41:40 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2011, 02:48:50 PM
Hi Milk - if you may be referring to my post - Belder (at least in the first 2 volumes that I own) is on the harpsichord; the recording w/ Maggie Cole (just 1 disc) splits her playing of selected sonatas between the fortepiano & harpsichord evenly, so an interesting recording.  NOW, are there other recordings of Soler performed on the fortepiano, I'm not sure?   :D

Yes, Dave, precisely the sonatas of Vol. 4 are performed on fortepiano:

QuoteThe sonatas on these CDs show Soler had moved away from the single movement sonatas of Scarlatti, and had adopted (like Haydn and Boccherini at the time) the four-movement form which became the norm for the classical sonata right up to and including the early sonatas of Beethoven. By the time Soler composed these sonatas in the 1760s, the new forte-piano had begun to make serious inroads and displace the harpsichord. This recording uses a forte-piano that enables the Alberti bass to be used to maximum effect - something a harpsichord cannot achieve.

[asin]B004MRX89M[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2011, 06:55:13 PM
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on May 29, 2011, 06:41:40 PM
Yes, Dave, precisely the sonatas of Vol. 4 are performed on fortepiano:

Antoine - interesting, guess I need to pick up Vols. 3 & 4 of Belder's recordings - how many more will he put out or is this the end of the series?  ;) ;D   Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 07:02:20 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 29, 2011, 08:10:47 AM
I haven't those Soler's, but rather these disks on Pierre Verany label played by Jean Brosse;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31WZSEH1C8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Excuse the poor quality scan... nonetheless, there is nothi8ng poor quality about the playing. His Fandango is excellent! I am going to check out the Belder though. I have enjoyed his playing in some other things (Scarlatti & Bach).

I also like Belder's style a lot; both in Bach and Scarlatti, but still my favorite Fandango is played by Scott Ross... I love his rhythmic drive:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e8/56/5facb2c008a05c16efcda010.L._AA300_.jpg)

http://youtu.be/c54uQo76lbs

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 07:07:19 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2011, 06:55:13 PM
Antoine - interesting, guess I need to pick up Vols. 3 & 4 of Belder's recordings - how many more will he put out or is this the end of the series?  ;) ;D   Dave

Even if the series requires 30 additional vols., there is no problem. Belder is a hard worker.  ;) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2011, 07:07:31 PM
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on May 29, 2011, 07:02:20 PM
I also like Belder's style a lot; both in Bach and Scarlatti, but still my favorite Fandango is played by Scott Ross... I love his rhythmic drive:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e8/56/5facb2c008a05c16efcda010.L._AA300_.jpg)

http://youtu.be/c54uQo76lbs

8)

Antonio,
Thanks for the link. Yes, Scott Ross was a great loss, he was getting better and better all the time, and was already near the top of the heap. So it goes. I hadn't ever heard him doing Soler before. Cool! :)

8)


----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 59 Quartet in E for Strings Op 54 #3 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 29, 2011, 07:16:55 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 29, 2011, 07:07:31 PM
Antonio...

An hommage to "il Prete Rosso"... and, obviously, for me "Antonio" is more natural than "Antoine".  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on May 29, 2011, 11:58:26 PM
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on May 29, 2011, 07:02:20 PM
I also like Belder's style a lot; both in Bach and Scarlatti, but still my favorite Fandango is played by Scott Ross... I love his rhythmic drive:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e8/56/5facb2c008a05c16efcda010.L._AA300_.jpg)

http://youtu.be/c54uQo76lbs

8)

Darn! I just checked and the Scott Ross youtube performance of Fandango has been removed!!!!! It was up on youtube for the last couple of years! There was a great live performance by Ross on youtube! I'll have to check out the Cole recording of Soler. I also wonder how many more Soler CDs are coming from Belder. Is everyone aware that, according to wikipedia, Soler's authorship of Fandango is considered doubtful? Well whoever wrote the piece, it's a lot of fun. I like Belder's Fandango. I also like this one by Cuiller. It's a fast one clocking in at 9:48!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yA%2BwdxRBL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on May 31, 2011, 01:32:42 AM
Can I add something else if I'm not cluttering up this forum? I buy a lot of recordings but here's another CPE Bach recording that I really enjoy. I get a lot of pleasure from this one. Also, Cummings plays the clavichord (accompanying the violin) on one of the tracks (harpsichord on the rest)! Really interesting!(http://cb.sacdstatic.com/l/53/6253/6116253.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 31, 2011, 03:18:30 AM
Well, I finally got around to ripping and listening to the Kozeluch Piano Concertos:
[asin]B0021JLQA6[/asin]

Overall, this is an enjoyable listen. The sound is good and I particularly liked the piano playing. I don't feel the balance between the piano and the orchestra are ideal with the piano a bit too much forward (but this is only an issue for me when they are all playing together in the big moments, of which there are not too many). But the music is lovely indeed, and among Kozeluch's earliest piano concertos. Both orchestra and pianist are quite stylish, and the spirit of the music very much reminds me of Mozart, Haydn, etc. The piano is not a period one, which didn't bother me, but may be a consideration for others. The music made my foot tap and my head bob back and forth - it is very enthusiastic music and happy music. So no revelations here for me, but a ton of fun and enjoyment!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2011, 04:12:01 AM
Quote from: milk on May 31, 2011, 01:32:42 AM
Can I add something else if I'm not cluttering up this forum? I buy a lot of recordings but here's another CPE Bach recording that I really enjoy. I get a lot of pleasure from this one. Also, Cummings plays the clavichord (accompanying the violin) on one of the tracks (harpsichord on the rest)! Really interesting!(http://cb.sacdstatic.com/l/53/6253/6116253.jpg)

Milk,
Yes, that looks really interesting too. Here is a disk that we discussed back late last year;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachCPEVSscover.jpg)
which is the same music, clearly, since he only wrote 5 (maybe 6) of these sonatas. This one is accompanied on a fortepiano, which sounds great, but I would very much like to hear one done with a clavichord. It brings to mind that the roles are going to be reversed; the violin will have to be careful not to cover up the keyboard rather than the opposite!  :)

Don't ever be concerned about taking up to much space. Doors opening on new avenues of discussion are our lifeblood. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2011, 04:18:47 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 31, 2011, 03:18:30 AM
Well, I finally got around to ripping and listening to the Kozeluch Piano Concertos:
[asin]B0021JLQA6[/asin]

Overall, this is an enjoyable listen. The sound is good and I particularly liked the piano playing. I don't feel the balance between the piano and the orchestra are ideal with the piano a bit too much forward (but this is only an issue for me when they are all playing together in the big moments, of which there are not too many). But the music is lovely indeed, and among Kozeluch's earliest piano concertos. Both orchestra and pianist are quite stylish, and the spirit of the music very much reminds me of Mozart, Haydn, etc. The piano is not a period one, which didn't bother me, but may be a consideration for others. The music made my foot tap and my head bob back and forth - it is very enthusiastic music and happy music. So no revelations here for me, but a ton of fun and enjoyment!

Excellent, thanks for the report back, Neal. I have been curious about this since you first brought it up. I'm not surprised over the overall tone of the music; not being funereal enough is one of the points where he has been criticized. Personally, that's usually what I am looking for in this type of music. :)

I see an interesting feature of your impressions; you mention that it is on a modern piano, and then mention elsewhere that the piano seems to dominate in places. Without inextricably linking those 2 things, might I point out the possibility that rather than a misjudgment of recording technology, perhaps it is rather a question of the capabilities of modern pianos that when playing in a freewheeling sort of way, they can't be dominated by an ensemble the size of a chamber orchestra. Just a thought...

I think though that I will pick this up. The world doesn't have enough Kozeluch's... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 31, 2011, 09:58:41 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 31, 2011, 04:12:01 AM
Milk,
Yes, that looks really interesting too. Here is a disk that we discussed back late last year;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachCPEVSscover.jpg)
which is the same music, clearly, since he only wrote 5 (maybe 6) of these sonatas. This one is accompanied on a fortepiano, which sounds great, but I would very much like to hear one done with a clavichord. It brings to mind that the roles are going to be reversed; the violin will have to be careful not to cover up the keyboard rather than the opposite!  :)

That's such a great disc!  :o Enjoyed it tremendously - perfectly performed. :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Marc on May 31, 2011, 10:14:43 AM
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on May 29, 2011, 07:02:20 PM
I also like Belder's style a lot; both in Bach and Scarlatti, but still my favorite Fandango is played by Scott Ross... I love his rhythmic drive:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e8/56/5facb2c008a05c16efcda010.L._AA300_.jpg)

Probably not the best recording sound quality (produced in 1967), but there's also plenty of drive on this disc, with Rafael Puyana playing Soler:

(http://i52.tinypic.com/xmk1tv.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on June 01, 2011, 12:31:22 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 31, 2011, 04:12:01 AM
Milk,
Yes, that looks really interesting too. Here is a disk that we discussed back late last year;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachCPEVSscover.jpg)
which is the same music, clearly, since he only wrote 5 (maybe 6) of these sonatas. This one is accompanied on a fortepiano, which sounds great, but I would very much like to hear one done with a clavichord. It brings to mind that the roles are going to be reversed; the violin will have to be careful not to cover up the keyboard rather than the opposite!  :)

Don't ever be concerned about taking up to much space. Doors opening on new avenues of discussion are our lifeblood. :)

8)

Well, I want to check out this one too! On the Cummings, it's only one track on which he uses clavichord. He uses harpsichord on the sonatas but he adds this piece on violin and keyboard: Arioso In a Major, Wq. 79, H. 535. Right, it's interesting to hear the soft violin technique on this one - as you say. You've added another recording to my list! Searching through my collection, I realize I have Stern on a PI performance of Chopin Cello sonatas (Ophélie Gaillard on cello). But that's for another forum! 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 04:30:19 AM
Quote from: milk on June 01, 2011, 12:31:22 AM
Well, I want to check out this one too! On the Cummings, it's only one track on which he uses clavichord. He uses harpsichord on the sonatas but he adds this piece on violin and keyboard: Arioso In a Major, Wq. 79, H. 535. Right, it's interesting to hear the soft violin technique on this one - as you say. You've added another recording to my list! Searching through my collection, I realize I have Stern on a PI performance of Chopin Cello sonatas (Ophélie Gaillard on cello). But that's for another forum!

Well, it is my considered opinion that any disk which features a parrot in a blizzard on the cover is worth checking out in any case. :D  And then, of course, the music is splendid. ;)

That little 1 movement piece intrigues me. I have this disk wishlisted now, it will likely make it in the next fiscal period.  0:)

Chopin who?  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 04:33:38 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 04:30:19 AM
Chopin who?  :D

>:(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2011, 04:36:41 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 04:30:19 AM
Well, it is my considered opinion that any disk which features a parrot in a blizzard on the cover is worth checking out in any case. :D

We have a parakeet of just the same opinion, Gurn!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 04:50:17 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 04:33:38 AM
>:(

Now David. I have combed the lists for a Classical Era composer named 'Chopin', to no avail. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 05:16:44 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 04:50:17 AM
Now David. I have combed the lists for a Classical Era composer named 'Chopin', to no avail. :-\

8)

Not much of a stretch from Beethoven and Schubert, Gurn. And oh such a rewarding one.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2011, 05:19:31 AM
This exchange is interesting . . . because of the parallel discussion of Classical VS. Romantic.

Chopin is certainly a post-LvB composer, of course . . . but with a strong classicist element in his compositional mix.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 05:24:24 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 05:16:44 AM
Not much of a stretch from Beethoven and Schubert, Gurn. And oh such a rewarding one.

It has nothing to do with Chopin per se, and everything to do with his music not being Classical but rather solidly Romantic. If we wanted to stretch out, I would incorporate Vivaldi as soon as I would Chopin, with some justification since his immediate successors considered that his music was galant, IOW, pre-Classical. However, we have rather arbitrarily laid down 1828 (the death of Schubert) as the endpoint of our time period, so no matter how much we love Chopin (or Mendelssohn etc etc etc), you have to draw a line somewhere. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 05:26:12 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 04:50:17 AM
Now David. I have combed the lists for a Classical Era composer named 'Chopin', to no avail. :-\

Hey, Gurn... there is a guy roaming this very thread, talking about some Classico-Romantic continuum, The Era of Homophony. He once told me he liked Chopin.

Can't remember his name though...  ???
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 05:26:29 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 05:24:24 AM
It has nothing to do with Chopin per se, and everything to do with his music not being Classical but rather solidly Romantic. If we wanted to stretch out, I would incorporate Vivaldi as soon as I would Chopin, with some justification since his immediate successors considered that his music was galant, IOW, pre-Classical. However, we have rather arbitrarily laid down 1828 (the death of Schubert) as the endpoint of our time period, so no matter how much we love Chopin (or Mendelssohn etc etc etc), you have to draw a line somewhere. :)

8)

Hey, YOU brought him up!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 05:27:14 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 05:26:29 AM
Hey, YOU brought him up!  ;D

Nope. Milk did.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 05:27:14 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 01, 2011, 05:19:31 AM
This exchange is interesting . . . because of the parallel discussion of Classical VS. Romantic.

Chopin is certainly a post-LvB composer, of course . . . but with a strong classicist element in his compositional mix.

Well, then we should adopt Brahms too. But no, I think not. Some composers are in on style, others on chronology. It follows then that other composers are out on style or chronology. I think someone who has a compelling interest should start something like Mn Dave's Romantic Hideaway or something to that effect... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2011, 05:34:19 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 05:27:14 AM
Well, then we should adopt Brahms too. But no, I think not. Some composers are in on style, others on chronology. It follows then that other composers are out on style or chronology. I think someone who has a compelling interest should start something like Mn Dave's Romantic Hideaway or something to that effect... :)

8)

Mn Dave's Romantic Redoubt, perhaps? ; )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 05:39:55 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 05:24:24 AM
However, we have rather arbitrarily laid down 1828 (the death of Schubert) as the endpoint of our time period,

Excellent. Then Carl Maria von Weber fits in perfectly. 

His two symphonies are marvels of Early Romanticism, paving the way for...

Ooops, wrong thread.  ;D

Or maybe not?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 01, 2011, 05:43:59 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 05:24:24 AM
we have rather arbitrarily laid down 1828 (the death of Schubert) as the endpoint of our time period, so no matter how much we love Chopin (or Mendelssohn etc etc etc), you have to draw a line somewhere. :)
8)

You do. When I needed to arbitrate I drew the line at 1780. Born before classical, born after romantic. That put Beethoven on the classical side, where I grudgingly admit he belongs, and Schubert on the romantic, where I think his later stuff and lieder fit best. Signs, Signs, everywhere Signs...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 06:07:14 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 05:39:55 AM
Excellent. Then Carl Maria von Weber fits in perfectly. 

His two symphonies are marvels of Early Romanticism, paving the way for...

Ooops, wrong thread.  ;D

Or maybe not?

No, Weber is fair game, on the chronology side anyway. I agree with you, Weber was, IMO, the first Romantic composer. But he is so solidly embedded in the Late Classical that he is part of the group, if only to show contrast. One of the interesting facts I like about Weber is that he hated having to compose in "sonata form", and any of his works that have an sonata-allegro first movement, the entire work was completed before he forced himself to sit down and write the opening movement. Can it be that "Romantic style" was born from a composer's dislike of the discipline involved in writing a structured form? :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 01, 2011, 06:08:22 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 05:27:14 AM
Well, then we should adopt Brahms too. But no, I think not. Some composers are in on style, others on chronology. It follows then that other composers are out on style or chronology. I think someone who has a compelling interest should start something like Mn Dave's Romantic Hideaway or something to that effect... :)

8)

I knew this bloody day would arrive to this musical Arcadia: the old battle between the founder and his unruly followers.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 06:17:47 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 06:07:14 AM
No, Weber is fair game, on the chronology side anyway. I agree with you, Weber was, IMO, the first Romantic composer. But he is so solidly embedded in the Late Classical that he is part of the group, if only to show contrast. One of the interesting facts I like about Weber is that he hated having to compose in "sonata form", and any of his works that have an sonata-allegro first movement, the entire work was completed before he forced himself to sit down and write the opening movement. Can it be that "Romantic style" was born from a composer's dislike of the discipline involved in writing a structured form? :)

An interesting question, but I'm not sure "dislike" is the right term. Maybe "unsuitable to their personality"?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 06:23:04 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 06:17:47 AM
An interesting question, but I'm not sure "dislike" is the right term. Maybe "unsuitable to their personality"?

Well, that's a reason certainly, but the ultimate result is dislike. :)

Do you notice how Hummel and Spohr evolved from Classical structures into composing things like "potpourris" and the like around 1805 and on from there? I think there is an element of Romantic influence in that, since that is a rejection of some formal conventions also. These sorts of influential relationships among these composers are an area that I would really like to get more information about. Someone must have written on it and I missed it... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 06:32:48 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 06:23:04 AM
Well, that's a reason certainly, but the ultimate result is dislike. :)

Do you notice how Hummel and Spohr evolved from Classical structures into composing things like "potpourris" and the like around 1805 and on from there? I think there is an element of Romantic influence in that, since that is a rejection of some formal conventions also. These sorts of influential relationships among these composers are an area that I would really like to get more information about. Someone must have written on it and I missed it... :-\

My own theory is that Hummel, Spohr, Weber or whoever else of the gang have always been "Romantics" --- it's only that around 1800 the general mentality shifted towards "Romanticism" and they "came out of the closet", so to speak.

I firmly believe "Romanticism" and "Classicism" to be first and foremost psychological categories, which are prevalent or latent according to the general mentality of the society, whose pendulum swings back and forth.

Actually, one can find "Romantic" and "Classical" people not only in art, but also in science & philosophy or even among relatives, friends & colleagues.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on June 01, 2011, 08:11:01 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 06:32:48 AM
My own theory is that Hummel, Spohr, Weber or whoever else of the gang have always been "Romantics" --- it's only that around 1800 the general mentality shifted towards "Romanticism" and they "came out of the closet", so to speak.

I firmly believe "Romanticism" and "Classicism" to be first and foremost psychological categories, which are prevalent or latent according to the general mentality of the society, whose pendulum swings back and forth.

Actually, one can find "Romantic" and "Classical" people not only in art, but also in science & philosophy or even among relatives, friends & colleagues.  :)



I've always viewed Beethoven's generation as being more Romantic than Classical.  Perhaps "early Romantic" or 'protoRomantic" or "post Classical"--they are more or less a bridge generation )  (with LvB being the Golden Gate).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 08:16:12 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 05:27:14 AM
Mn Dave's Romantic Hideaway or something to that effect... :)

No.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 08:19:13 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 08:16:12 AM
No.  ;D

Aw, Dave, it would have been wonderful. Quiet, secluded, moonlight on the terrace...  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mn Dave on June 01, 2011, 08:19:53 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 08:19:13 AM
Aw, Dave, it would have been wonderful. Quiet, secluded, moonlight on the terrace...  0:)

I couldn't handle it. I'm not as gung-ho as Gurn.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 01, 2011, 08:23:15 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 06:32:48 AM
My own theory is...

You love theories, Florestan.

Me too!!! We're slightly Platonic; our dear Gurn, on the other hand, is a bit Aristotelian, slightly sceptic, a good-humored Haydnian finally.

Another theory, as you can see.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 08:30:09 AM
Quote from: Leon on June 01, 2011, 08:22:53 AM
I've been reading the Downs' book on The Classical Era and in the first two chapters he describes the social and cultural milieu that contributed to the "classical" style.  The ideas of the Age of Reason prompted much of the stylistic attitudes, and many musicians were also amateur philosphers buying into the general mechanisitic view of the universe, with music no exception, and that feelings were not as championed as much as intellect, with rules and structures for everything. 

I would venture a guess that as the 18th proceeded into the 19th century, feelings became more promiment  and this led to changes in how music was expressed.

I would agree with that. Where Florestan says that Romanticism is an attitude (I know, it isn't a quote, just my interpretation) I think that Classicism was also an attitude.

In that silly "Was Beethoven..." thread, I postulated that there was no divide between Classical & Romantic on the music front, that one is a natural extension of the other and together the represent a natural progression of homophonic, tonal music. I carefully avoided the philosophical aspects because, as an Aristotelian (so I hear) I am committed to dealing with what I can see and hear as opposed to what I believe must have been in the minds of men... :)

Quote from: Antonio Marchand on June 01, 2011, 08:23:15 AM
You love theories, Florestan.

Me too!!! We're slightly Platonic; our dear Gurn, on the other hand, is a bit Aristotelian, slightly sceptic, a good-humored Haydnian finally.

Another theory, as you can see.  :)

I love theories too, I just try to avoid getting too committed to them. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 01, 2011, 08:33:29 AM
Instead of blathering on about what is classical? romantic? (and yet another post brought up Beethoven again! sheesh!) this is easy, the original post said 1740-1830 just so we wouldn't have this discussion.  Chopin lived almost 20 years past the time frame for this thread and is therefore not fair game.

See that was easy!  Which is what the original post was trying to do, make it easy. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2011, 08:36:28 AM
Bring that hammer down, Davey! : )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 01, 2011, 08:39:09 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 01, 2011, 08:36:28 AM
Bring that hammer down, Davey! : )

Yes a Mahlerian hammer blow of fate... ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 08:47:08 AM
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on June 01, 2011, 08:23:15 AM
You love theories, Florestan.

Only when they are supported by facts.  :D ;D :D

Quote
Me too!!! We're slightly Platonic; our dear Gurn, on the other hand, is a bit Aristotelian, slightly sceptic, a good-humored Haydnian finally.

That's interesting: what exactly makes my theory Platonic? I've always considered myself rather Aristotelian, in that I think the middle way is the best way to go.  :)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 08:30:09 AM
Where Florestan says that Romanticism is an attitude (I know, it isn't a quote, just my interpretation) I think that Classicism was also an attitude.

That's what I said all along: both of them are attitudes.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2011, 09:44:53 AM
Quote from: mozartfan on June 01, 2011, 08:39:09 AM
Yes a Mahlerian hammer blow of fate... ;D

Geez, freakin' Mahler  :P  :-X

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 01, 2011, 09:54:02 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 01, 2011, 09:44:53 AM
Geez, freakin' Mahler  :P  :-X

8)

One can imagine a Couperinian tinkling of fate, Bachian involution of fate, Mozartian sweep of fate, Haydnesque exposition of fate, even an ars nova flowering of fate. Any others?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 01, 2011, 03:00:24 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_S2YlWGdmEo0/SPN_e5PRbJI/AAAAAAAABxQ/ocTt8rYpeX4/s320/Immagine.JPG)

Wow. This is lovely! Listening to Anna Bon di Venezia (1740 -?) for the first time.

Quotecontents:

Sonate Nr. 4 D-Dur
Sonate Nr. 5 g-moll
Sonate Nr. 6 G-Dur
Sonate Nr. 1 C-Dur
Sonate Nr. 2 F-Dur
Sonate Nr. 3 B-Dur


Christiane Meininger, flute
Traud Kloft, cembalo


Anna Bon (b. 1739/40) was born in Russia and was an Italian composer and singer. Her parents were both involved in music, and travelled internationally; her father, Girolamo Bon, as a librettist and scenographer, her mother, Rosa Ruvinetti Bon, as a singer. She entered Ospedale della Pietà as a student at the age of four. She had rejoined her parents by the time they were at Bayreuth in the service of Margrave Friedrich of Brandenburg Kulmbach. In 1762 the family moved to the Esterházy court at Eisenach, where Anna remained until at least 1765. By 1767 she lived in Hildburghausen and was married to the singer Mongeri. (Wikipedia)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 02, 2011, 07:02:30 AM
Quote from: Leo K on June 01, 2011, 03:00:24 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_S2YlWGdmEo0/SPN_e5PRbJI/AAAAAAAABxQ/ocTt8rYpeX4/s320/Immagine.JPG)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61dMxCKvQjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wow. This is lovely! Listening to Anna Bon di Venezia (1740 -?) for the first time.

Hi Leo - boy I've not thought about her in a while, but do own 2 discs; the Flute Sonatas on CPO & the Harpsichord Sonatas (inserted above); these are Op. 1 & 2 - from her Wiki article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Bon), she also wrote Six Divertimenti, for two flutes and basso continuo, op. 3, which would be of great interest - not sure about recorded availability - will do a search later -  :D

P.S. - did find an Op. 3 offering HERE (http://www.emecdiscos.com/home%20pages/023.htm) - but at 18 Euros w/o S/H!  Maybe there is a MP3 download out there?  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 03, 2011, 04:09:39 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61-wCs-uvoL.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614B19Y3hRL.jpg)

Biographical information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Cris%C3%B3stomo_Arriaga).

As for the music, I can do no better than to quote two Amazon reviews (not for this particular recording).

Quote from: H. C. PassarellaLike the remarkable Symphony of Juan Chrisostomo Arriaga, these three string quartets hint at what the world lost by the composer's early death. If anything, they are more accomplished than the Symphony (though the slow movement of that Symphony is beyond what any teenager, except the teenage Mendelssohn, ever achieved in music). The numbering of the quartets may show something about the publishing practices of the day. Composers usually put their best foot forward; take, for example, the First Piano Concerto of both Beethoven and Chopin. In both cases, they actually postdate a less ambitious Second Concerto. So it is with Arriaga. The Second Quartet is the most traditional, with a genial first movement that seems modeled closely on the opening of Beethoven's Sixth, by the time Arriaga was writing, a classic of some twenty years' vintage. Arriaga's First Quartet, though, is a more intense affair. Cast in the minor key, it's dramatic and moving, a bit of Sturm und Drang Parisian style. (Arriaga was studying composition in Paris with F.-J. Fetis when these quartets were written.)

No. 3 takes us to an even higher plane, however, with a very substantial (six minutes long) Presto last movement and a "Minuet" third movement that is actually a haunted scherzo recalling Haydn in one of his more diabolical moods (for example, the Witch's Minuet from the Quartet Op. 72, No. 2). Again, the most immediate model seems to be the Beethoven Opus 18 Quartets, but the Beethovenian theme of the first movement quickly evaporates into harmonic regions and even developmental possibilities that Beethoven circa 1800 hadn't yet dreamed of. But maybe the most arresting movement is the second, cast as a pastorale. The A section is deceptively Rococo-like, with little figures that mimic birdcalls and other country sounds, but the B section, supposedly portraying a thunderstorm, is more like a storm of the soul, with troubling, powerful tremolos. Here, Arriaga recalls his near contemporary Franz Schubert; I think of the finale of the Octet, with its ominous opening tremolos in the strings, or the disquieting String Quartet No. 15.

So, this may be music by a teenage composer, but the accomplishment and even the vision are remarkable. Arriaga seems to have learned all there was to know about Classical style and even to grasp the direction toward full-blown Romanticism that music was taking in composers such as Schubert, whose music he couldn't have known at all.

Quote from: J Scott MorrisonArriaga clearly had a talent for writing memorable melodies. But he also had a good grasp of form, enough so that he could alter and bend the usual classical quartet form to his own ends. For instance, he starts the fourth movement of Quartet No. 1 with an adagio introduction, reminiscent of similar passages by Haydn, but then he surprises us by bringing it back, transformed, toward the end of the allegretto rondo that is the main portion of the movement. Also, in the 6/8 minuet of that quartet the first section is written with two accented beats per bar, but in the trio this becomes three beats per bar. Not earth-shaking, to be sure, but still an unusual thing for such a young composer to pull off so effectively.

The Second Quartet is probably the most conventional of the three, but the variation movement (II) is really memorable, with a long melancholy main theme that is transformed gradually as we go along. The pizzicato variation is particularly effective. The finale contains two versions of a unison cadenza-like section before and after the exposition.

The Third Quartet is most notable for its greater contrapuntal complexity than its predecessors. The second movement, called Pastorale, is possibly my favorite movement of all, not only for its lovely melodic musings, but also its instrumental sophistication. The minuet has much the feel of a dramatic scherzo, although it hews to the minuet form. The scurrying Presto finale is a fitting conclusion to this set of three marvelous quartets by a young composer barely old enough to shave.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 04:20:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 03, 2011, 04:09:39 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61-wCs-uvoL.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614B19Y3hRL.jpg)

Biographical information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Cris%C3%B3stomo_Arriaga).

As for the music, I can do no better than to quote two Amazon reviews (not for this particular recording).

Florestan,
I hope any of the people who hang out on The Corner will take advantage of your recommendation. I already know how good the music is, I concur with both of those reviewers. I had an old version that wasn't the greatest in terms of playing (can't remember the players even, now), and I certainly took advantage of this rec to get a new version, and PI besides!

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/9d/14/875f228348a0f727446e3110.L._AA300_.jpg)
[asin]B000054OZJ[/asin]

Different cover, same disk.

Arriaga's untimely death was an incalculable loss to music. :(

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 03, 2011, 04:24:57 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 03, 2011, 04:20:47 AM
I certainly took advantage of this rec to get a new version, and PI besides!

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/9d/14/875f228348a0f727446e3110.L._AA300_.jpg)
[asin]B000054OZJ[/asin]

Different cover, same disk.

Yes, a fabulous performance, played with passion and elegance. I have yet to meet a dud featuring Simon Standage.  :)

Quote
Arriaga's untimely death was an incalculable loss to music. :(

Alas!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 04:33:13 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 03, 2011, 04:24:57 AM
Yes, a fabulous performance, played with passion and elegance. I have yet to meet a dud featuring Simon Standage.  :)

Alas!

Yes, he's a rock, IMO. I have a Vivaldi disk where he drags it a little bit, but beyond that, I have probably 3 dozen disks featuring him, I wouldn't part with any of them. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on June 03, 2011, 04:36:19 AM
Quote from: Leon on June 03, 2011, 04:33:16 AM
Okay, inspired as I am by Harry's poignant post  I too recommended this disc only to be ignored and then to see someone else get applauded.

I want props!

;D

My sincerest apologies for having missed your post. I gladly acknowledge your priority.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 04:36:54 AM
Quote from: Leon on June 03, 2011, 04:33:16 AM
Okay, inspired as I am by Harry's poignant post  I too recommended this disc only to be ignored and then to see someone else get applauded.

I want props!

;D

Well, I missed this post, possibly it was during that week where I was regretting giving up narcotics... :-\  Is Harry pregnant with feeling then? I shall have to assuage his anxieties.

I'm guessing that Florestan got the idea from you, so he now becomes your burden for life... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 03, 2011, 04:45:53 AM
Thanks for the suggestion, gents.

A-clip-listening I will go . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 03, 2011, 04:55:25 AM
Saying one could not find the Rasoumovsky Qt, how do you find the Naxos disc compares?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 04:57:20 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 03, 2011, 04:55:25 AM
Saying one could not find the Rasoumovsky Qt, how do you find the Naxos disc compares?

There is an Amazon link to it in my post, Karl. I haven't heard the Naxos disk, so I can't offer an opinion. Well, other than that I'm sure it sounds like the fiddles are using steel strings and are tuned up a quartertone... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 03, 2011, 05:02:31 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 03, 2011, 04:57:20 AM
There is an Amazon link to it in my post, Karl.

Oh, that must be the "image unavailable" I see!

QuoteI haven't heard the Naxos disk, so I can't offer an opinion. Well, other than that I'm sure it sounds like the fiddles are using steel strings and are tuned up a quartertone... :D

8)

You are being cattivo! ; )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 05:17:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 03, 2011, 05:02:31 AM
You are being cattivo! ; )

Well, perhaps a tad. It's my nature, you see?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 03, 2011, 05:49:55 AM
All this talk of Arriaga sent me burrowing into the La Ma de Guido website where I found a recording of classical era string quartets I didn't know about! Gasp! Came out last fall.

(http://www.lamadeguido.com/LMG2093r.jpg)

Arkivmusic quotes a Fanfare review thus. (I could giggle I'm so excited!)

TEIXIDOR String Quartets: No. 1 in B♭; No. 2 in G; No. 5 in E♭ • Cambini Qrt • LA MA DE GUIDO 2093 (61:04)

For a neglected composer with no entry in Grove, let alone Wikipedia, Josep Teixidor i Barceló (1752–c.1811) wrote string quartets of surprisingly high quality. This disc of three quartets from a set of six appears to be the only recording of any of his music. From the booklet notes written by Miguel Simarro, the first violinist of the Munich-based Cambini Quartet, in a garbled translation, we learn that Teixidor came from the Lleida region of Spain, was appointed as court organist in Madrid in 1774, taught, and was a theorist and music historian. His quartets were most likely composed during the last decade of the 18th century. The quartets' sometimes elaborate first-violin and cello parts reflect his acquaintance with the virtuosity of instrumentalist/composers such as the violinists Viotti and Rode, and the cellists Romberg and Duport. He knew the work of Spanish and European keyboard composers—Mozart and C. P. E. Bach among them—but the main influence is clearly that of Haydn, the characteristics and procedures of whose mature string quartets Teixidor used as a model with greater depth than Boccherini did, although Teixidor certainly sounds like Boccherini.

It's the first movement of the Quartet No. 1, the largest and most distinctive of the three recorded here, that best exemplifies Teixidor's absorption of Haydn's style. At the opening, he uses the musical equivalent of humorous spoken "asides" to create interest in the phrase structure. (There's a brief, throbbing drone in the viola at the start of the development section, a nice bit of Spanish color, but the only such moment in any of these quartets.) Like Haydn's slow movements, the Adagio is compact and achieves some intensity of expression. Teixidor's minuets are sturdy and varied. (I seem to remember a comment by Roger Sessions that while recovering from an operation, he had studied the scores of Haydn's approximately 80 string quartets and marveled that each minuet was different from every other one.) It's in the rather long finale that Teixidor's themes lack Haydn's pithiness, and so, the movement is comparatively diffuse.

The Cambini Quartet is a period-instrument group. It plays deftly, with good intonation, and observes all repeats. The characteristic thinness of tone and treble-oriented sound of these instruments becomes, at least for me, a little monotonous over the course of three quartets. One of these pieces would make a welcome, novel opening to a concert by a modern string quartet. The sound of the disc, on La mà de Guido, a label with more than 100 recordings of mostly obscure Spanish music, is nice and clear.

FANFARE: Paul Orgel
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 06:00:36 AM
Quote from: Leon on June 03, 2011, 05:33:59 AM
One would think that after the fraud you perpetrated over  in the Guess That Tune thread you woud be hanging your head in shame.

;)

And yet, here I am! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 06:01:34 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on June 03, 2011, 05:49:55 AM
All this talk of Arriaga sent me burrowing into the La Ma de Guido website where I found a recording of classical era string quartets I didn't know about! Gasp! Came out last fall.

(http://www.lamadeguido.com/LMG2093r.jpg)

Arkivmusic quotes a Fanfare review thus. (I could giggle I'm so excited!)

TEIXIDOR String Quartets: No. 1 in B♭; No. 2 in G; No. 5 in E♭ • Cambini Qrt • LA MA DE GUIDO 2093 (61:04)

For a neglected composer with no entry in Grove, let alone Wikipedia, Josep Teixidor i Barceló (1752–c.1811) wrote string quartets of surprisingly high quality. This disc of three quartets from a set of six appears to be the only recording of any of his music. From the booklet notes written by Miguel Simarro, the first violinist of the Munich-based Cambini Quartet, in a garbled translation, we learn that Teixidor came from the Lleida region of Spain, was appointed as court organist in Madrid in 1774, taught, and was a theorist and music historian. His quartets were most likely composed during the last decade of the 18th century. The quartets' sometimes elaborate first-violin and cello parts reflect his acquaintance with the virtuosity of instrumentalist/composers such as the violinists Viotti and Rode, and the cellists Romberg and Duport. He knew the work of Spanish and European keyboard composers—Mozart and C. P. E. Bach among them—but the main influence is clearly that of Haydn, the characteristics and procedures of whose mature string quartets Teixidor used as a model with greater depth than Boccherini did, although Teixidor certainly sounds like Boccherini.

It's the first movement of the Quartet No. 1, the largest and most distinctive of the three recorded here, that best exemplifies Teixidor's absorption of Haydn's style. At the opening, he uses the musical equivalent of humorous spoken "asides" to create interest in the phrase structure. (There's a brief, throbbing drone in the viola at the start of the development section, a nice bit of Spanish color, but the only such moment in any of these quartets.) Like Haydn's slow movements, the Adagio is compact and achieves some intensity of expression. Teixidor's minuets are sturdy and varied. (I seem to remember a comment by Roger Sessions that while recovering from an operation, he had studied the scores of Haydn's approximately 80 string quartets and marveled that each minuet was different from every other one.) It's in the rather long finale that Teixidor's themes lack Haydn's pithiness, and so, the movement is comparatively diffuse.

The Cambini Quartet is a period-instrument group. It plays deftly, with good intonation, and observes all repeats. The characteristic thinness of tone and treble-oriented sound of these instruments becomes, at least for me, a little monotonous over the course of three quartets. One of these pieces would make a welcome, novel opening to a concert by a modern string quartet. The sound of the disc, on La mà de Guido, a label with more than 100 recordings of mostly obscure Spanish music, is nice and clear.

FANFARE: Paul Orgel


Man, that looks interesting! That must be mine! :)  Thanks for the tip!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on June 03, 2011, 06:35:44 AM
This is something I come back to again and again. It's an interesting collection of music. But the most interesting thing about the recording is the strange-sounding square piano. It's not like the square piano on the Leach or Katin recordings. It almost sounds like a banjo! Love it! The composers include Mozart, J.C. Bach, C.F. Abel, Philip Hayes, and James Hook. I hope I'm not veering into an unwelcome area (recommended recordings?). 
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bsFgYTh3pzs/TYQDgmqF9CI/AAAAAAAAGRA/DnlJehdoBf0/s1600/front.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 07:16:28 AM
Quote from: milk on June 03, 2011, 06:35:44 AM
This is something I come back to again and again. It's an interesting collection of music. But the most interesting thing about the recording is the strange-sounding square piano. It's not like the square piano on the Leach or Katin recordings. It almost sounds like a banjo! Love it! The composers include Mozart, J.C. Bach, C.F. Abel, Philip Hayes, and James Hook. I hope I'm not veering into an unwelcome area (recommended recordings?). 
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bsFgYTh3pzs/TYQDgmqF9CI/AAAAAAAAGRA/DnlJehdoBf0/s1600/front.jpg)

No, by all means. And since you already have separated it from Leach (who I greatly like), it is bound to be highly interesting. I'll definitely have to look into that one!

As far as recommending recordings goes, our only interest is in avoiding the hammer fights that sometimes ensue over who has the best version of something or other. Most of the recordings that we are interested in are 1-offs anyway, so that isn't likely to be a problem. We tend to not care who has the best Mozart concerto cycle though... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 03, 2011, 03:28:42 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on June 03, 2011, 05:49:55 AM
All this talk of Arriaga sent me burrowing into the La Ma de Guido website where I found a recording of classical era string quartets I didn't know about! Gasp! Came out last fall.

(http://www.lamadeguido.com/LMG2093r.jpg)

Arkivmusic quotes a Fanfare review thus. (I could giggle I'm so excited!)

TEIXIDOR String Quartets: No. 1 in B♭; No. 2 in G; No. 5 in E♭ • Cambini Qrt • LA MA DE GUIDO 2093 (61:04)

For a neglected composer with no entry in Grove, let alone Wikipedia, Josep Teixidor i Barceló (1752–c.1811) wrote string quartets of surprisingly high quality. This disc of three quartets from a set of six appears to be the only recording of any of his music. From the booklet notes written by Miguel Simarro, the first violinist of the Munich-based Cambini Quartet, in a garbled translation, we learn that Teixidor came from the Lleida region of Spain, was appointed as court organist in Madrid in 1774, taught, and was a theorist and music historian. His quartets were most likely composed during the last decade of the 18th century. The quartets' sometimes elaborate first-violin and cello parts reflect his acquaintance with the virtuosity of instrumentalist/composers such as the violinists Viotti and Rode, and the cellists Romberg and Duport. He knew the work of Spanish and European keyboard composers—Mozart and C. P. E. Bach among them—but the main influence is clearly that of Haydn, the characteristics and procedures of whose mature string quartets Teixidor used as a model with greater depth than Boccherini did, although Teixidor certainly sounds like Boccherini.

It's the first movement of the Quartet No. 1, the largest and most distinctive of the three recorded here, that best exemplifies Teixidor's absorption of Haydn's style. At the opening, he uses the musical equivalent of humorous spoken "asides" to create interest in the phrase structure. (There's a brief, throbbing drone in the viola at the start of the development section, a nice bit of Spanish color, but the only such moment in any of these quartets.) Like Haydn's slow movements, the Adagio is compact and achieves some intensity of expression. Teixidor's minuets are sturdy and varied. (I seem to remember a comment by Roger Sessions that while recovering from an operation, he had studied the scores of Haydn's approximately 80 string quartets and marveled that each minuet was different from every other one.) It's in the rather long finale that Teixidor's themes lack Haydn's pithiness, and so, the movement is comparatively diffuse.

The Cambini Quartet is a period-instrument group. It plays deftly, with good intonation, and observes all repeats. The characteristic thinness of tone and treble-oriented sound of these instruments becomes, at least for me, a little monotonous over the course of three quartets. One of these pieces would make a welcome, novel opening to a concert by a modern string quartet. The sound of the disc, on La mà de Guido, a label with more than 100 recordings of mostly obscure Spanish music, is nice and clear.

FANFARE: Paul Orgel


Thanks for the heads up on this! Great find  ;D

Hey, and it's on iTunes too! (I just downloaded it and I'm enjoying now, a rare impulse buy for me, but very affordable at 5.99)  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 03, 2011, 05:12:56 PM
Directed toward Gurn or any other posters on this thread who think they can help: I really want to keep exploring the classical period.  So far I have listened to and enjoyed a sizable portion of the Haydn Symphonies and all the CPE Bach symphonies, and I have sampled symphonies of many other composers.  I'm particularly interested in symphonies right now.  So far, I have discovered and enjoyed Johann Stamitz, Joseph Martin Kraus, Luigi Boccherini, Henri-Jospeh Rigel(I discovered this one and there is only one CD out of his symphonies, it seems), Sammartini, all the Bach sons excepting Christoph Friedrich, who I am curious about, Michael Haydn(3 of his), Dittersdorf(3 of his).  I own works by all these composers.  I have found things interesting about all these composers, each of them, as similar as they sound to a non connesseur, have their own virtues.  I have tried Salieri and will say I found him very dull in formal composition and mediocre in opera overtures, but all the others I've mentioned I've found acceptably interesting and enjoyable, and very rewarding to know about.

So, anyone else who knows anything about the composers I've mentioned, what do you reccomend I go for.  I'm leaning on getting a complete set of Michael Haydn, Boccherini, and Johann Christoph Friederich Bach(especially him), what is the general opinion on these composers?  Boccherini is a little light but I find enjoyable things about him, Michael Haydn can be kind of academic, but is pretty interestingly layered, and the 3rd Bach composer son I have a lot of faith in.  Are there any other composers you'd recommend?  Composers not listed, and those who would fill in a gap for me or provide something new. 

Just starting off here.  I'll get more specific in time, I'm a bit rushed right now.  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on June 03, 2011, 05:13:57 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 03, 2011, 07:16:28 AM
No, by all means. And since you already have separated it from Leach (who I greatly like), it is bound to be highly interesting. I'll definitely have to look into that one!

As far as recommending recordings goes, our only interest is in avoiding the hammer fights that sometimes ensue over who has the best version of something or other. Most of the recordings that we are interested in are 1-offs anyway, so that isn't likely to be a problem. We tend to not care who has the best Mozart concerto cycle though... :D

8)

Great thanks. I love Leach's Field nocturnes on Square piano and Peter Katin has a fantastic Clementi recording on a square. However, the instrument Norris plays here is the strangest early piano I've heard. I notice that there are samples on the amazon site if one follows the link. [asin]B00008V6XL[/asin]
 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 03, 2011, 05:15:30 PM
In the mean time, I will be browsing the rest of this thread like crazy.  Also, I'm mostly focused on early to mid-late classical symphonies at this point.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2011, 06:23:24 PM
Quote from: clavichorder on June 03, 2011, 05:15:30 PM
In the mean time, I will be browsing the rest of this thread like crazy.  Also, I'm mostly focused on early to mid-late classical symphonies at this point.

Oh, we love to talk about that subject, although we haven't done much. We are awfully partial, it seems, to keyboard works. The idea of a clavichorder in our midst is just right. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music \ Hogwood  Robert Levin - K 482 Concerto #22 in Eb for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 03, 2011, 07:24:14 PM
As for being a clavichorder, I do in fact love the clavichord and CPE Bach is perhaps my favorite composer, get right down to it.  I'm not a big fan of all the Miklos Spanyi recordings though, as he plays too slow and nuanced. 

Have you seen teafruitbat's channel on youtube?  He's probably the most musical clavichordist online. Here is a W.F. Bach Fantasia played by him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYF7faLCUkQ and here is a CPE rondo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvfnS3JuE_Q&feature=channel_video_title.  Its a replica Stein travel clavichord, with enough keys on it to play late classical repertoire, excepting lower register octaves that can be faked. 

I love the CPE Bach sonatas with varied reprises, played by Collin Tilney. 

Has Henri-Joseph Rigel been mentioned on this thread yet?  I find his recorded symphonies very frantic and humorous, consistently quirky. 

I'm also interested in good deals for box sets and the like, I'm on a budget, but for many of the obscure composers, there is no such thing as a box set :-[
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 04, 2011, 01:54:32 AM
Quote from: clavichorder on June 03, 2011, 05:12:56 PM
Directed toward Gurn or any other posters on this thread who think they can help: I really want to keep exploring the classical period.  So far I have listened to and enjoyed a sizable portion of the Haydn Symphonies and all the CPE Bach symphonies, and I have sampled symphonies of many other composers.  I'm particularly interested in symphonies right now.  So far, I have discovered and enjoyed Johann Stamitz, Joseph Martin Kraus, Luigi Boccherini, Henri-Jospeh Rigel(I discovered this one and there is only one CD out of his symphonies, it seems), Sammartini, all the Bach sons excepting Christoph Friedrich, who I am curious about, Michael Haydn(3 of his), Dittersdorf(3 of his).  I own works by all these composers.  I have found things interesting about all these composers, each of them, as similar as they sound to a non connesseur, have their own virtues.  I have tried Salieri and will say I found him very dull in formal composition and mediocre in opera overtures, but all the others I've mentioned I've found acceptably interesting and enjoyable, and very rewarding to know about.

So, anyone else who knows anything about the composers I've mentioned, what do you reccomend I go for.  I'm leaning on getting a complete set of Michael Haydn, Boccherini, and Johann Christoph Friederich Bach(especially him), what is the general opinion on these composers?  Boccherini is a little light but I find enjoyable things about him, Michael Haydn can be kind of academic, but is pretty interestingly layered, and the 3rd Bach composer son I have a lot of faith in.  Are there any other composers you'd recommend?  Composers not listed, and those who would fill in a gap for me or provide something new. 

Just starting off here.  I'll get more specific in time, I'm a bit rushed right now.  Thanks in advance.
I am not quite as focussed on the classical period as some here, but my first love is the symphony, so I think I can help. First, there is the Contemporaries of Mozart series on Chandos. THis includes Stamitz. But there is also Pleyel, Gyrowetz, Bauger, Hoffmeister, Kozeluch, Krommer, Marsh, Myslivicek, Pichl, Richter, Rosetti, Vanhal, Wesley, Wranitsky (aka Vranicky), and Vogler. Not sure I covered every single release, but they are a great place to start. If you like any of them, there are often other discs to explore (for example, Vanhal has others on Naxos, Das Alte Werk, etc.). I have yet to find a stinker in the series - none are less than interesting (though tastes may vary). Some can be found in cheaper packs, like this:
[asin]B003TLRKAK[/asin]

Personally, I would hightly recommend the following Franz Xaver Richter discs (they are outstanding in every way, and this is the same Richter as above):
[asin]B000REGIXM[/asin]
[asin]B0020LSWWA[/asin]

I can only agree with some of those you mentioned. I enjoyed Michael Haydn on CPO tremendously as well as that Rigel disc. I like Kraus as well, though perhaps not as much as some of the others.

Another Myslivecek I love is this one:
[asin]B000JFZ9FC[/asin]

There are more, but I already feel like I may have overwhelmed you with names. I would start with the Richter Naxos discs myself, followed by something from those who are recorded a bit more often like Myslivecek, Vanhal, Pleyel, etc.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 04, 2011, 05:01:49 AM
Thanks!  Not overwhelmed, the CD recomendations make things quite simple.  Its also nice that this is a set I can explore within.  Good to know there aren't any stinkers.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2011, 06:32:58 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 04, 2011, 01:54:32 AM
I am not quite as focussed on the classical period as some here, but my first love is the symphony, so I think I can help. First, there is the Contemporaries of Mozart series on Chandos. THis includes Stamitz. But there is also Pleyel, Gyrowetz, Bauger, Hoffmeister, Kozeluch, Krommer, Marsh, Myslivicek, Pichl, Richter, Rosetti, Vanhal, Wesley, Wranitsky (aka Vranicky), and Vogler. Not sure I covered every single release, but they are a great place to start. If you like any of them, there are often other discs to explore (for example, Vanhal has others on Naxos, Das Alte Werk, etc.). I have yet to find a stinker in the series - none are less than interesting (though tastes may vary). Some can be found in cheaper packs, like this:
[asin]B003TLRKAK[/asin]

Personally, I would hightly recommend the following Franz Xaver Richter discs (they are outstanding in every way, and this is the same Richter as above):
[asin]B000REGIXM[/asin]
[asin]B0020LSWWA[/asin]

I can only agree with some of those you mentioned. I enjoyed Michael Haydn on CPO tremendously as well as that Rigel disc. I like Kraus as well, though perhaps not as much as some of the others.

Another Myslivecek I love is this one:
[asin]B000JFZ9FC[/asin]

There are more, but I already feel like I may have overwhelmed you with names. I would start with the Richter Naxos discs myself, followed by something from those who are recorded a bit more often like Myslivecek, Vanhal, Pleyel, etc.

Quoted for truth! Great post!

I second the Naxos Richter recordings, as Richter's music is really amazing, and blew me away upon first hearing it.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2011, 07:19:22 AM
At this moment, I am enjoying this recording of Giuseppi Cambini's (1746-1825?) symphonies:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YNQRD9E1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Sinfonia in E minor
Sinfonia F major
Sinfonia concertante No. 12 for 2 violins and orchestra in C minor
Sinfonia concertante No. 5 for oboe, bassoon, and orchestra in B flat major


(http://www.editionhh.co.uk/Graphics/GiuseppeCambini.jpg)

Quoth the Wiki:

QuoteGiuseppe Maria Gioacchino Cambini (Livorno, February 13?, 1746 - Paris ? 1825?) was an Italian composer and violinist.

Born in Livorno, it is likely that Cambini studied violin with Filippo Manfredi; the only evidence for this is however Cambini's own unreliable account, which also claims inaccurately that he worked with Luigi Boccherini and Pietro Nardini, and was a friend of Joseph Haydn. Another legend about Cambini, circulated by François-Joseph Fétis, claimed that Cambini and his fiancée had been kidnapped by Barbary pirates and ransomed by a music-lover.

Cambini arrived in Paris some time before or in 1773, and after one of his Symphonies was played at a Concert Spirituel, his music began to be published, quickly building up an oeuvre of much instrumental music and fourteen operas, only two of which survive complete. He was extremely prolific, writing 82 symphonies concertantes, nine symphonies, seventeen concertos and over 100 string quintets.

When Mozart was in Paris, a Concert Spirituel with Mozart's Symphonie Concertante, K. 297b, was cancelled, and Mozart blamed Cambini for sabotaging his performance. Gluck on the other hand estimated Cambini as an honest fellow.

During the French Revolution, Cambini wrote hymns for the revolutionaries, but after 1810, Cambini wrote less music and more essays about music, and the popularity of his music quickly declined. From this point, Cambini's biography is very sketchy: he might have stayed in Paris to his death in 1825, as stated by Fétis, or he may have gone to the Netherlands and died in the late 1810s.

The large amount of string quartets written by Cambini have led some commentators to assert that he had a major role in the development of this form in France.


This is the only Cambini I have, and sometime I'd like to explore his chamber music. This disk of symphonies is simply ravishing. The music is subtle, simple, melodic and with energetic rhythm, with a certain introspective quality thoughout each work, especially in the slow movements.


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 04, 2011, 07:28:44 AM
I'm considering a couple of Boccherini string quintet, sextet cds performed by Ensemble 415 (in my bro cart at the moment), are these good or should I be looking for other recordings or works?

[asin]B00004TVGQ[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61b4eV76KHL._SL500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2011, 07:43:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 04, 2011, 07:28:44 AM
I'm considering a couple of Boccherini string quintet, sextet cds performed by Ensemble 415 (in my bro cart at the moment), are these good or should I be looking for other recordings or works?

[asin]B00004TVGQ[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61b4eV76KHL._SL500_.jpg)

I have a few of those Ensemble 415 recordings, including a Boccherini Quintet disk. They are great recordings indeed. I haven't heard the disks you are inquiring about, but I sure love this ensemble.

8)

I want to add a word about Bocherrini's String Trios. SPLENDID!!!  Especially as played by La Real Camara.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2011, 07:53:30 AM
Another shout out for Albrechtsberger!

I quote from Gurn from a year or two ago:

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 23, 2010, 01:23:54 PM
Well, I don't have other recordings, so I came with expectations from reading about him. Here is an excerpt from Grove's, for example;

After his imperial appointment in 1772 he became increasingly preoccupied with the composition of fugues – over 240 for instruments in addition to numerous examples in the sacred music. His two-movement sonate (slow homophonic, fast fugal), of which he wrote over 120 for various instrumental combinations after 1780, developed out of the Baroque church sonata but were intended for chamber rather than church performance. They had little influence on the already mature sonata form. His approach to Viennese church composition tended, as Weissenbäck noted, towards formal sectionalization or polarization of homophonic and polyphonic textures. In spite of their technical refinements, these late works seem less imaginative than those of his earlier years

And his real claim to fame was in theory and teaching, his specialty being polyphony and counterpoint. More from Grove's:

Nevertheless it was through his teachings and theoretical writings that Albrechtsberger exerted the strongest influence on his contemporaries and succeeding generations of composers. He began attracting students as early as 1757 (Franz Schneider), and by the time of his death he was the most sought-after pedagogue in Europe. Haydn regarded him as 'the best teacher of composition among all present-day Viennese masters' and unhesitatingly sent Beethoven to him for instruction (1794–5). The fugues of Beethoven's last years, particularly op.133, owe much to his teachings. His international reputation as a theorist rested on his extremely popular treatises on composition (1790) and figured bass (c1791). In place of innovatory theoretical concepts these works contained a skilful combination of elements borrowed primarily from Fux and Marpurg. His principal achievement in this area was to formulate 18th-century theory in a language and format which were practical and suitable to the needs of contemporary instruction.

So, yes, I had certain expectations. :)  I'm not sure, however, what of all these musics have been recorded. :-\

8)

This disk of his String Quartets is very interesting from a historical perspective, as well as musically fascinating. These are straightforward quartets, but not boring at all. They progress logically with good ideas, exhibiting a cheerful but cautious mood. There is beautiful, assured writing here.:

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm400/m449/m44975kx0jb.jpg)

I'm glad I found out about this recording in this thread.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 04, 2011, 08:01:24 AM
Thanks Leo! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2011, 08:19:57 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 04, 2011, 08:01:24 AM
Thanks Leo! :)

Your welcome man!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2011, 08:42:44 AM
Another fascinating disk of works for chorus and orchestra I am listening to this morning:

(http://bbs.catholic.or.kr/attbox/bbs/include/readImg.asp?gubun=100&maingroup=2&filenm=03%28752%29%2Ejpg)

On this disk:

Confitebor
Glori in Excelsis, in Pastorale
Laudate Pueri
Magnificat
Te Deum




I searched high and low for more information about Giacinto Calerara (1729-1803). I finally found an Italian Website with information, and so I google-translated it below:

QuoteBIOGRAPHICAL
To understand the importance of Giacinto Calderara and his huge production in the Italian music scene, may be sufficient, the following brief biography drawn from the foreword to the Gloria in excelsis in pastoral care by Maestro. Joseph Gai and forthcoming:

"Among the many instructors who took turns in the direction of Chapel of the prestigious institution and secular music of the Cathedral of Asti, more commonly known as the Chapel of the Putti, the figure of Giacinto Calderara, interesting character and mostly unknown to modern history, despite the great reputation and a successful harvest in his time. Calderara was born March 12, 1729 in Casale Monferrato, where his father Michael - born in Borgosesia - held the position of maestro di cappella at the Duomo. son of an artist, began his musical studies family and soon became known beyond the borders of the small town with easy melodic invention and the happy mood. When he died in July of 1749, Antonio Berruti, Maestro di Cappella of the Cathedral of Asti, the Chapter, having to replace , went to the youth Casale. Calderara, then just twenty years old, accepted the post and went into service on the day of the Saints, leading the Mass: the first of many executions and appreciated fifty-four years of intense musical activity in the service of worship . Only a few brief secular interrupted the sacred production, highlighting the natural talent for melodrama in Calderara was gifted.

He wrote Alexander Indies and Ricimero, represented respectively in Alexandria in 1752 and Turin (Teatro Regio, with 21 repeats) in the 1756. For a third work, of which however is not given to know either the title or subject, mention the minutes of the Chapter of 1753, alluding to an application for a temporary license that had addressed the choirmaster of the Canons to travel to Verona to conduct a His theatrical work. Saddened for the abolition of the Chapel of Putti (enacted by Chapter 5 April 1801, following the Napoleonic forfeit), Calderara died September 16, 1803. With great honor was buried in the Cathedral, where even today a memorial stone marble. His was a life almost exclusively to the service of the Cathedral, which commits him not only as conductor and director of the frequent executions, as educator of the child singers, but also as a composer of new music for the celebrations. He was born in that context, 'and plenty of amazing music production almost entirely the Archives of the Cathedral of Asti has preserved and handed down. It is a few hundred vocal-instrumental compositions for liturgical use: many of them are short of breath, set up an instrumental ensemble reduced to the essential (first violins, second violins, cello and organ) corresponding, ie, stable staffing of the Chapel. More than a half of good compositions are more complex and more rich in instrumentation, as well as the usual strings, also provide, in accordance with cases, 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, Flute, Viola, or Third Violin and Double Bass. These were aimed at more solemn celebrations, and therefore require the use of external performers who were recruited mostly from neighboring cities. "

The music is galant-like, very cheerful in contrast to the subject matter to some of the sacred latin texts. I simply love it.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 04, 2011, 08:44:31 AM
I left the 14th century this morning long enough to take in Bengraf's 4s:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wFAZNyxVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Tuneful, optimistic writing full of jaunt and, seems to me, an implicatin of dancing. Folk dancing no less. I wouldn't seek moral improvement here, just delight.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 04, 2011, 09:35:54 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on June 04, 2011, 08:44:31 AM
I left the 14th century this morning long enough to take in Bengraf's 4s:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wFAZNyxVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Tuneful, optimistic writing full of jaunt and, seems to me, an implicatin of dancing. Folk dancing no less. I wouldn't seek moral improvement here, just delight.

This is a recording I am very interested in! Thanks for your thoughts.  :D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 04, 2011, 10:17:15 AM
Quote from: Leo K on June 04, 2011, 09:35:54 AM
This is a recording I am very interested in! Thanks for your thoughts.  :D

My pleasure! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2011, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: clavichorder on June 04, 2011, 05:01:49 AM
Thanks!  Not overwhelmed, the CD recomendations make things quite simple.  Its also nice that this is a set I can explore within.  Good to know there aren't any stinkers.

Yes, that's a great post by Neal. Good solid rec's, and things you can actually find when you go looking for them. If you are irrevocably committed to period instruments (just PI around here) then getting a good start is far more difficult. But to get to hear the music here and now, I believe one needs to be heedless in that regard. Concerto Köln is a great exception, but the years spent hunting are best filled with music, and that means some MI in the pie. :)

8)

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Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson - K 482 Concerto #22 in Eb for Piano 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2011, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 04, 2011, 07:28:44 AM
I'm considering a couple of Boccherini string quintet, sextet cds performed by Ensemble 415 (in my bro cart at the moment), are these good or should I be looking for other recordings or works?

[asin]B00004TVGQ[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61b4eV76KHL._SL500_.jpg)

I know I have the first, it's tits. I may have the second too, I get easily confused in hot weather... :D  In any case, if a careful search of my shelves didn't reveal it there, I would snap it right up. I'm a big fan of Ensemble 415. :)

8)


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Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson - K 482 Concerto #22 in Eb for Piano 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2011, 04:44:55 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on June 04, 2011, 08:44:31 AM
I left the 14th century this morning long enough to take in Bengraf's 4s:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wFAZNyxVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Tuneful, optimistic writing full of jaunt and, seems to me, an implicatin of dancing. Folk dancing no less. I wouldn't seek moral improvement here, just delight.

Well, that's interesting. I thought that the Festetics most obscure composer was this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Grillquartetscover.jpg)

Clearly I was wrong. Well, if Bengraf is nearly as good as Grill, then I'll need to commune with him. Thanks for the tip, chasm. :)

8)

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Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson - K 482 Concerto #22 in Eb for Piano 3rd mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 05, 2011, 07:27:10 AM
Quote from: Leo K on June 04, 2011, 08:42:44 AM
Another fascinating disk of works for chorus and orchestra I am listening to this morning:

(http://bbs.catholic.or.kr/attbox/bbs/include/readImg.asp?gubun=100&maingroup=2&filenm=03%28752%29%2Ejpg)

On this disk:

Confitebor
Glori in Excelsis, in Pastorale
Laudate Pueri
Magnificat
Te Deum




I searched high and low for more information about Giacinto Calerara (1729-1803). I finally found an Italian Website with information, and so I google-translated it below:

The music is galant-like, very cheerful in contrast to the subject matter to some of the sacred latin texts. I simply love it.

8)

Once in a while there is a recording that deeply takes you away on first listen (for me, this occurs often), and surprises you with it's power and beauty. This is one of those recordings! I wish I owned it, but a friend of mine played it at his house yesterday, and I was floored. Apparently, it's a live recording. Sometimes the singing is off, but the orchestra is assurred, and Calderara's fine and elegant orchestration is heard in all it's glory. The singing is honest and pure, and makes up for any missed note. Wonderful! Bravo!


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 05, 2011, 10:57:46 AM
Here is another very fine recording of 18th Century symphonies, by Johann Sperger:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xJZV8pMxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://www.brightcecilia.net/gallery2/d/5080-2/Johannes+Sperger.jpg)

Wiki:

QuoteJohannes Matthias Sperger (March 23, 1750, Feldsberg  – May 13, 1812, Schwerin) was an Austrian contrabassist and composer.

Sperger trained from 1767 in Vienna as a contrabassist and composer. He worked from 1777 in the Hofkapelle of the Archbishop of Pressburg. From 1778 he was also a member in the Wiener Tonkünstlersozietät, in whose concerts he appeared several times with his own works and as soloist. From 1783 to 1786, Sperger was a member of the Hofkapelle of count Ludwig von Erdödy in Kohfidisch. From 1789 he was employed as first contrabassist of the Mecklenburg Schwerin Hofkapelle in Ludwigslust. He was an extremely productive composer who wrote more than forty-four symphonies, numerous instrumental concertos, among them eighteen contrabass concertos, sonatas, rondos and dances, cantatas, choral works, and airs.


8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2011, 01:13:00 PM
Thanks for that, Leo.  Sperger is one of those names that you read about, but rarely see music by. A few years ago I searched around for some, but there was nothing readily available at the time. I see Naxos have remedied that. Time for me to do the same. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Pregardien\Staier - D 957  Liederkreis for Tenor   'Schwanengesang' #02  'Kriegers Ahnung'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 05, 2011, 01:25:05 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 05, 2011, 01:13:00 PM
Thanks for that, Leo.  Sperger is one of those names that you read about, but rarely see music by. A few years ago I searched around for some, but there was nothing readily available at the time. I see Naxos have remedied that. Time for me to do the same. :)

... and fortunately Musica Aeterna Bratislava is an excellent HIP ensemble.

I have their outstanding recordings of Muffat's concerti grossi. :)

[asin]B00005N8DP[/asin][asin]B00005UO8O[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2011, 01:29:40 PM
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on June 05, 2011, 01:25:05 PM
... and fortunately Musica Aeterna Bratislava is an excellent HIP ensemble.

I have their outstanding recordings of Muffat's concerti grossi. :)


Well, there you go, it just gets better and better! Hurrah for Naxos!   Thanks for that info, 'Tonio, it eased my mind. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Pregardien\Staier - D 957  Liederkreis for Tenor   'Schwanengesang' #06  'In der Ferne'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 05, 2011, 01:44:00 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 05, 2011, 01:29:40 PM
... it eased my mind. :)

I thought it would be useful to know that they are playing period instruments (or copies of them) which is not always the case on Naxos. I recall I purchased these fantastic two discs several years ago with some discs by the Capella Istropolitana directed by Jaroslav Krček (Geminiani, Manfredini & Locatelli). Those discs by the Capella Istropolitana (modern instruments) are still some of the best discs of concerti grossi that I have listened to...   :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2011, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on June 05, 2011, 01:44:00 PM
I thought it would be useful to know that they are playing period instruments (or copies of them) which is not always the case on Naxos. I recall I purchased these fantastic two discs several years ago with some discs by the Capella Istropolitana directed by Jaroslav Krček (Geminiani, Manfredini & Locatelli). Those discs by the Capella Istropolitana (modern instruments) are still some of the best discs of concerti grossi that I have listened to...   :)

Yeah, I know about them too. They have done a bunch of things for Naxos, including a lot of Vivaldi. Always very well played. Pity about the instruments though... :-\     :D

8)


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Now playing:
Pregardien\Staier - D 957  Liederkreis for Tenor   'Schwanengesang' #12  'Am Meer'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 06, 2011, 03:43:48 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 04, 2011, 04:44:55 PM
Well, if Bengraf is nearly as good as Grill, then I'll need to commune with him. 8)

I think Grill's 4s lean towards the Viennese style, Bengraf's to the Parisian, if you know what I mean.

Hungaroton seems to take classical 4s seriously. They've put out quartet recordings of Grill, Bengraf, Albrechtsberger, Pleyel, Krommer, Zmeskall, Spech, Lickl and Wolfl, plus no doubt some that had already been deleted before I started hunting them, Tomasini being one example of that I think.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 06, 2011, 04:00:57 AM
Speaking of which, Hungaroton has put out a couple of discs with sonatas by Mozart arranged for string quartet, played by the Luigi Tomasini Quartet. This music strikes me as diffuse in the quartet format, unfocused. But I'm an aesthete, not a musician. Anyone else heard them?

Mozart: Transcriptions for String Quartet by I. Pleyel(1), Hungaroton 32343
-- Quartetto Luigi Tomasini
Mozart: Transcriptions for String Quartet by J. André(1), Hungaroton 32408
-- Quartetto Luigi Tomasini
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2011, 04:18:44 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on June 06, 2011, 04:00:57 AM
Speaking of which, Hungaroton has put out a couple of discs with sonatas by Mozart arranged for string quartet, played by the Luigi Tomasini Quartet. This music strikes me as diffuse in the quartet format, unfocused. But I'm an aesthete, not a musician. Anyone else heard them?

Mozart: Transcriptions for String Quartet by I. Pleyel(1), Hungaroton 32343
-- Quartetto Luigi Tomasini
Mozart: Transcriptions for String Quartet by J. André(1), Hungaroton 32408
-- Quartetto Luigi Tomasini

No, haven't heard them. I would like to give them a try though. I do have 3 or 4 of the violin & keyboard sonatas arranged for clarinet quartet. They don't seem to lose their focus, but I wonder if the presence of the clarinet on its own isn't enough to give some focus. Anyway, I rather like the lot of those. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 08, 2011, 09:40:09 PM
Got those CDs I said I'd order in the mail today! :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 08, 2011, 09:45:25 PM
I posted in Talkclassical forums a thread on early Haydn symphonies and have gotten little response, all the classical era buffs seem to congregate here, and make me look like a novice.  So I have a question to ask, that's probably already been covered in the classical corner, although its far more mainstream than what is commonly to be found here.  What are the best early Haydn symphonies in your opinion and why?

Here is my post:

"So far, I've taken a liking to 1, 5, 16, 26(Lamentation), and 28 the most. However, I have not listened to 17-24 because my MP3 player mislabeled them when the CD ripped! I also kind of like 39(the fist).

I'll have more to say about why I like these symphonies later. But don't just give me numbers here like I've done so far, tell us why you like those particular symphonies."
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 04:00:45 AM
Quote from: clavichorder on June 08, 2011, 09:40:09 PM
Got those CDs I said I'd order in the mail today! :D

Which cds? :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 04:05:27 AM
I'm sorry I haven't logged into TC yet, else I would have replied to your thread.  I like your list, btw check out (you probably already know this, but just in case) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_by_Joseph_Haydn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_by_Joseph_Haydn) the numbering is a little off from the chronology.  In particular #11 was composed only 3 years before his more popular Storm and Stress symphonies. :)

Funny enough #1 is also a little favorite of mine, perhaps because I got a chance to see it performed live! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 09, 2011, 05:27:20 AM
I'm seeing a trend with number 11 and 22, shame I don't have 22 since iTunes mislabeled them(I ripped them from another person's set)

These CDs
http://www.amazon.com/Richter-Grandes-Symphonies-Nos-7-12/dp/B0020LSWWA/ref=pd_ybh_7?pf_rd_p=280800601&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_t=1501&pf_rd_i=ybh&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=169YH83WCMDXGYHTE6FZ

http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-10-20-J-C-F-Bach/dp/B004DIPL0O/ref=pd_ybh_6?pf_rd_p=280800601&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_t=1501&pf_rd_i=ybh&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1GNJWTHQ1VTHSTB6M1TG

http://www.amazon.com/Krommer-Stamitz-Pleyel-Kozeluch-Wranitzky/dp/B003TLRKAK/ref=pd_ybh_9?pf_rd_p=280800601&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_t=1501&pf_rd_i=ybh&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=15QNSKRDS521MDSPC7YD

How do you post CD images?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2011, 05:35:24 AM
Quote from: clavichorder on June 09, 2011, 05:27:20 AM
I'm seeing a trend with number 11 and 22, shame I don't have 22 since iTunes mislabeled them(I ripped them from another person's set)

How do you post CD images?

I'll be back later to chat, busy right now!!

You post an image by, say, at Amazon, you can right-click the image and choose "Copy Image Location" in Firefox, that is. Then when you come here, in your post you choose the little icon with the painting in it and click that once, then paste your link inside it (the link should end with .jpg). That's it. Alternatively, you can copy the ASIN number at Amazon and come over here and paste it inside the ASIN deal, and it will not only make the picture, but also put a link to the disk on Amazon.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 05:37:10 AM
On the amazon link look for the asin, for example on one of those links I see ASIN: B004DIPL0O

Well if you look up when composing a post you will see an amazon button clicking on it makes the following appear: [asin][/asin], now simply copy and paste the asin # into the asin tags like so [asin]B004DIPL0O[/asin] that will generate an image and a link and anything bought from using that link supports the forum. :)

[asin]B004DIPL0O[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 05:39:55 AM
Quote from: clavichorder on June 09, 2011, 05:27:20 AM
I'm seeing a trend with number 11 and 22, shame I don't have 22 since iTunes mislabeled them(I ripped them from another person's set)

#26 is also swell, I just forgot about it.  And don't double count those symphonies (I'm haydnfan on TC). ;D  If you google the specific movement names you might be able to figure out which one is #22.  Alternatively if you know the specific recording, you might be able to figure out #22 based on the timings. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2011, 06:06:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 05:39:55 AM
#26 is also swell, I just forgot about it.  And don't double count those symphonies (I'm haydnfan on TC). ;D  If you google the specific movement names you might be able to figure out which one is #22.  Alternatively if you know the specific recording, you might be able to figure out #22 based on the timings. :)

Or even tell me which recordings they are. I think I have all of them... well, not Dorati, but the rest of them. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 09, 2011, 11:39:25 AM
Wait, is Lamentation, 22 or 26?  Is there a variance in numbering choice between recordings?  I have Adam Fischer and the Austo-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2011, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: clavichorder on June 09, 2011, 11:39:25 AM
Wait, is Lamentation, 22 or 26?  Is there a variance in numbering choice between recordings?  I have Adam Fischer and the Austo-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra.

26.

No, not really. Everyone uses the Hoboken numbering, even though it is wrong. If you find a thread here called "Haydn's Symphonies", I had posted a list of the current thinking on what the proper order of composition is. I can repost later, although I have nothing here at work. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 09, 2011, 12:01:07 PM
Quote from: Leo K on June 03, 2011, 03:28:42 PM
Thanks for the heads up on this! Great find  ;D

Hey, and it's on iTunes too! (I just downloaded it and I'm enjoying now, a rare impulse buy for me, but very affordable at 5.99)  8)

The Teixidor cd is in, and the first quartet has just ended. This guy has Haydn written all over him...wait...is that a touch of Boccherini in the opening of the second piece? Ooooh!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 12:43:04 PM
Stupid question: are JC Bach and JCF Bach different composers?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on June 09, 2011, 12:48:20 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 12:43:04 PM
Stupid question: are JC Bach and JCF Bach different composers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christoph_Friedrich_Bach

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 12:49:57 PM
Thanks Que!  What do you know two different composers with such similar names.  How many Bachs are there anyway!? :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 09, 2011, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 12:43:04 PM
Stupid question: are JC Bach and JCF Bach different composers?

Yes!

(Where is The Tron-may his springs never rust!-to answer this?)

EDIT: ah, Que got there first, with citations!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on June 09, 2011, 05:06:09 PM
J.C.F. Bach, the "Buckeburg Bach" in between C.P.E. and J.C. in birth order, closer to J.C. with the same mother.  Was said to be the best of the Bach sons at playing his father's works on the organ. 

J.C.(Christian) on the other hand, was the "London Bach", the most popular of any of the Bach's(including the father) in his day.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 10, 2011, 06:10:52 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 12:49:57 PM
Thanks Que!  What do you know two different composers with such similar names.  How many Bachs are there anyway!? :D

David - LOL!  ;D  Probably too many to count!  As I recall the 'Bach Clan' use to have yearly reunions w/ likely a lot of eating, drinking, and of course music - probably the size of some of the medical meetings I use to attend -  :D   Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 10, 2011, 06:22:27 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 10, 2011, 06:10:52 AM
David - LOL!  ;D  Probably too many to count!  As I recall the 'Bach Clan' use to have yearly reunions w/ likely a lot of eating, drinking, and of course music - probably the size of some of the medical meetings I use to attend -  :D   Dave

(http://cgfa.acropolisinc.com/vinci/vinci17.jpg)

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 10, 2011, 06:42:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 12:49:57 PM
How many Bachs are there anyway!? :D

Is it really necessary to answer this question, David? Just one, of course. Like there is, for instance, just one Elvis. When the first name is necessary, then we are talking about another Bach.  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Marc on June 12, 2011, 03:29:55 PM
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on June 10, 2011, 06:42:01 AM
Is it really necessary to answer this question, David? Just one, of course. [....]

EXACTLY!
In short: the one who composed Oedipus Tex.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Marc on June 12, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 10, 2011, 06:22:27 AM
(http://cgfa.acropolisinc.com/vinci/vinci17.jpg)

;D

Nice!
Say, who's the cute girl sitting on the right-hand side of the central figure?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2011, 03:49:40 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 12, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
Nice!
Say, who's the cute girl sitting on the right-hand side of the central figure?

A premonitory vision of Hilary Hahn, I think.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scarpia on June 12, 2011, 04:02:54 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 12, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
Nice!
Say, who's the cute girl sitting on the right-hand side of the central figure?

Mary Magdalene, according to The Da Vinci Code, no?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 12, 2011, 06:36:13 PM
Quote from: Marc on June 12, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
Nice!
Say, who's the cute girl sitting on the right-hand side of the central figure?

Well that must be Anna Magdalena. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on June 12, 2011, 07:20:22 PM
IIRC, the "cute girl" is actually supposed to be St. John aka the beloved disciple. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2011, 04:19:39 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 12, 2011, 07:20:22 PM
IIRC, the "cute girl" is actually supposed to be St. John aka the beloved disciple.

Clearly you haven't read the Gospel according to St. Sebastian... ummm..  The Da Vinci Code. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 13, 2011, 04:41:53 PM
So I've been listening to some of Haydn's baryton trios and I find that the baryton parts are pretty simple.  I think that the amazing part is that the viola gets alot more challenging work, but at the same time somehow never upstages the baryton.  It's an incredibly delicate balance, and the cello gets some interesting parts too.

But that did made me think, has anybody here listened to compositions that really showed off what the baryton can do? :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2011, 04:55:31 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2011, 04:41:53 PM
So I've been listening to some of Haydn's baryton trios and I find that the baryton parts are pretty simple.  I think that the amazing part is that the viola gets alot more challenging work, but at the same time somehow never upstages the baryton.  It's an incredibly delicate balance, and the cello gets some interesting parts too.

But that did made me think, has anybody here listened to compositions that really showed off what the baryton can do? :)

A couple of weeks ago one of the regulars posted a disk by Abel that would suit your requirements. Abel was a virtuoso on the viola da gamba, which, as you know, is a baryton with the resonating strings absent. He also wrote baryton music for himself. I will be ordering that disk this weekend, in fact, as I would like to hear some virtuoso baryton music too. Look back just 2 or 3 pages at most and there is an Amazon link... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 294 Op 24 Sonata #05 in F for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 13, 2011, 04:58:10 PM
Yeah but that was bashed by Que, probably not any good. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2011, 05:01:23 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2011, 04:58:10 PM
Yeah but that was bashed by Que, probably not any good. ;D

Now, now, the world is full of different tastes. How else would you explain the dichotomy between Mozart and, say Koechlin, for example... :)

8)


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Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 294 Op 24 Sonata #05 in F for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 13, 2011, 06:14:34 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2011, 04:41:53 PM
So I've been listening to some of Haydn's baryton trios and I find that the baryton parts are pretty simple.  I think that the amazing part is that the viola gets alot more challenging work, but at the same time somehow never upstages the baryton.  It's an incredibly delicate balance, and the cello gets some interesting parts too.

But that did made me think, has anybody here listened to compositions that really showed off what the baryton can do? :)

Quote from: DavidW on June 13, 2011, 04:58:10 PM
Yeah but that was bashed by Que, probably not any good. ;D

David - as you already know Haydn had to compose baryton parts for an amateur (although a probably good one), so the combined use of bowing & plucking the sympathetic strings at the same time was not part of the prince's ability as far as I understand.

Looking back a few pages, Leon suggested the Abel disc below, which I have purchased and have listened to multiple times - not sure if Que gave an opinion in this thread?  But I must say that if you want to listen to solo baryton playing in which both sets of strings are used simultaneously, I'm not sure that there is much more out there?  This disc is worth considering in view of your wishes -  :D  Dave 

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WL39KjB/0/O/AbelBaryton1.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2011, 04:24:43 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 13, 2011, 06:14:34 PM
David - as you already know Haydn had to compose baryton parts for an amateur (although a probably good one), so the combined use of bowing & plucking the sympathetic strings at the same time was not part of the prince's ability as far as I understand.

Looking back a few pages, Leon suggested the Abel disc below, which I have purchased and have listened to multiple times - not sure if Que gave an opinion in this thread?  But I must say that if you want to listen to solo baryton playing in which both sets of strings are used simultaneously, I'm not sure that there is much more out there?  This disc is worth considering in view of your wishes -  :D  Dave 

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WL39KjB/0/O/AbelBaryton1.jpg)

Ah, Dave, well "worth considering" is sort of too nebulous for me. What do you really think?   :)  Does it kick butt and take names? 

There were other composers for baryton whose music is still extant, but possibly unrecorded to date. They were unlikely to have been handicapped in the way that Haydn was (composing for an amateur), and I expect if we ever get an opportunity to listen to them, we will discover the true ability of this instrument. Contemporaries never faulted anything about the instrument beyond its difficulty, so I suspect that a virtuoso playing virtuosic music will be able to put on quite a show. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on June 14, 2011, 02:36:13 PM
The one I was thinking of was a different performer... where do you find either of those discs anyway? :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 14, 2011, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 14, 2011, 04:24:43 AM
Ah, Dave, well "worth considering" is sort of too nebulous for me. What do you really think?   :)  Does it kick butt and take names? 
......

Good evening Gurn - agree w/ Leon - I re-listened to the Abel disc tonight just for you -  ;) ;D

First, this is 'solo' baryton (not sure how many of these recordings are even available?) - second, Foulon, the performer is no amateur, so I'm not sure that these compositions & performances should even be compared w/ the Haydn baryton trios et al - just a thought?

The recording is excellent - these are rather slow works in general (I guess analogous to the JS Bach cello suites - not a great comparison but close enough) - the instrument sounds beautiful; the bowing is often multi-stopped and the resonance from the sympathetic strings is quite evident - I cannot hear a lot of additional 'plucking' of the metal strings, if that is an issue.

Bottom line - how many solo baryton recordings exist?  And composed by one of the most respected cello players of the time - Abel presumably meant these works for an expert and not an amateur prince - certainly worth a listen; very relaxing music - BTW, I tried to look for reviews but could not find any - just for another opinion?  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2011, 04:46:40 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 14, 2011, 04:38:07 PM
Good evening Gurn - agree w/ Leon - I re-listened to the Abel disc tonight just for you -  ;) ;D

First, this is 'solo' baryton (not sure how many of these recordings are even available?) - second, Foulon, the performer is no amateur, so I'm not sure that these compositions & performances should even be compared w/ the Haydn baryton trios et al - just a thought?

The recording is excellent - these are rather slow works in general (I guess analogous to the JS Bach cello suites - not a great comparison but close enough) - the instrument sounds beautiful; the bowing is often multi-stopped and the resonance from the sympathetic strings is quite evident - I cannot hear a lot of additional 'plucking' of the metal strings, if that is an issue.

Bottom line - how many solo baryton recordings exist?  And composed by one of the most respected cello players of the time - Abel presumably meant these works for an expert and not an amateur prince - certainly worth a listen; very relaxing music - BTW, I tried to look for reviews but could not find any - just for another opinion?  Dave  :)

Ah, Dave, you're a prince! :)  Merçi beaucoup! In answer to your various questions, none is all I can think of. BTW, where DID you get that disk? I could have sworn that when Leon posted it I found it at Amazon, but looking now I don't even find a listing :-\

Oh, and guys, I went back and looked at Que's post back there, and it was the Pandolfi disk of Abel's "Drexel Manuscripts" for Viola da Gamba that he expressed great disappointment in. I recall now being surprised (as he was) that Pandolfi had produced a form of stinker. Well, stuff happens... :)

8)


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Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 550 Op 96 Sonata #10 in G for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 14, 2011, 05:20:34 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 14, 2011, 04:46:40 PM
Ah, Dave, you're a prince! :)  Merçi beaucoup! In answer to your various questions, none is all I can think of. BTW, where DID you get that disk? I could have sworn that when Leon posted it I found it at Amazon, but looking now I don't even find a listing :-\


Gurn - obtained from ArkivMusic for about $11.50 - just checked HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=41115&name_role1=2&bcorder=2&name_id=15&name_role=1) - seems to be a buck more now - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 14, 2011, 05:27:49 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 14, 2011, 04:46:40 PM
Ah, Dave, you're a prince! :)  Merçi beaucoup! In answer to your various questions, none is all I can think of. BTW, where DID you get that disk? I could have sworn that when Leon posted it I found it at Amazon, but looking now I don't even find a listing :-\

Oh, and guys, I went back and looked at Que's post back there, and it was the Pandolfi disk of Abel's "Drexel Manuscripts" for Viola da Gamba that he expressed great disappointment in. I recall now being surprised (as he was) that Pandolfi had produced a form of stinker. Well, stuff happens... :)

8)


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Now playing:
Ryo Terakado \ Boyan Vodenitcharov - Bia 550 Op 96 Sonata #10 in G for Piano & Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Gurn I must profoundly disagree on Que's thoughts on the Drexel Manuscript disk! It is an incredible disk and Abel is at his best in terms of technique and musical thought.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2011, 05:30:19 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 14, 2011, 05:20:34 PM
Gurn - obtained from ArkivMusic for about $11.50 - just checked HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=41115&name_role1=2&bcorder=2&name_id=15&name_role=1) - seems to be a buck more now - Dave  :D

Oh hell, there you go. Maybe I wasn't holding my tongue right when I hit the search button in Amazon. I can't believe Arkiv have it and Amazon doesn't. Price is the same though, so I must have found it before.  ::)  Thanks for the link, amigo. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Badura-Skoda, Maier, Bylsma, Collegium Aureum - Bia 410 Op 56 Concerto in C for Violin, Cello & Fortepiano in C 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2011, 05:34:05 PM
Quote from: Leo K on June 14, 2011, 05:27:49 PM
Gurn I must profoundly disagree on Que's thoughts on the Drexel Manuscript disk! It is an incredible disk and Abel is at his best in terms of technique and musical thought.

Thanks for that, Leo. Well, people are certainly going to have a difference of opinion in taste, that's why they have so many versions of things. Well, that and to take our money... :)  I really do need to get that disk, I think. I already know I like Abel's music. He was JC Bach's partner, but I find his music to be a bit less galant and deeper, more thought provoking maybe. Early times for that outside of Haydn and CPE Bach, but there it is.  :)

8)

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Now playing:
Badura-Skoda, Maier, Bylsma, Collegium Aureum - Bia 410 Op 56 Concerto in C for Violin, Cello & Fortepiano in C 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on June 23, 2011, 08:59:58 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YkI3vLs8xhM/TgNZiUp4YfI/AAAAAAAAKO4/WTbq_ij1YgQ/s1600/haydn+-+portada.PNG)

This looks like an interesting disk! I am going to listen to this soon  8)

I haven't looked yet, but I'm sure there was talk about this before at some point  ;)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2011, 09:36:49 AM
Quote from: Leo K on June 23, 2011, 08:59:58 AM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YkI3vLs8xhM/TgNZiUp4YfI/AAAAAAAAKO4/WTbq_ij1YgQ/s1600/haydn+-+portada.PNG)

This looks like an interesting disk! I am going to listen to this soon  8)

I haven't looked yet, but I'm sure there was talk about this before at some point  ;)

Actually, surprisingly little talk. I don't have that disk, but I do have a different disk of his string quintets which I found very entertaining. Interested to hear your reactions. :)

The one I have, no picture available (post it from home this evening though).

[asin]B0000UJLTQ[/asin]

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 23, 2011, 09:39:24 AM
I have this disc of Michael's string quintets

(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm106120978/michael-haydn-string-quintets-cd-cover-art.jpg)

but to be honest, I don't remember anything about it.

Gurn, is this the one you're thinking of?

Leo, are the C major and D major pieces on yours called notturni?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2011, 09:41:12 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on June 23, 2011, 09:39:24 AM
I have this disc of Michael's string quintets

(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm106120978/michael-haydn-string-quintets-cd-cover-art.jpg)

but to be honest, I don't remember anything about it.

Gurn, is this the one you're thinking of?

Leo, are the C major and D major pieces on yours called notturni?

Yes, chas, that's it for sure. I rather liked it, to be honest. I thought the notturnos were particularly nice. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 23, 2011, 09:47:21 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on June 23, 2011, 09:41:12 AM
Yes, chas, that's it for sure. I rather liked it, to be honest. I thought the notturnos were particularly nice. :)

8)

I'll have to give it a spin to (re)sample its virtues. Michael was no slouch. This recording I do remember liking:

(http://s.play.me/p/images/album/2745117/256/us/sonare-quartet/michael-haydn-string-quartets.jpg?ts=20110511)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on June 24, 2011, 02:18:01 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on June 23, 2011, 09:39:24 AM
I have this disc of Michael's string quintets

(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm106120978/michael-haydn-string-quintets-cd-cover-art.jpg)

but to be honest, I don't remember anything about it.

My bad! The C major's adagio cantabile shimmers. It's gorgeous.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on June 27, 2011, 06:28:55 AM
I've been gaga for Gamba lately. Leaving aside Baroque, here are two recordings I recently purchased that fit into the paramaters of this thread:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QRZYo0fxR5c/Stv73e_ALzI/AAAAAAAABCA/T0LoB-aOJBs/s320/cover.jpg) (http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/007/381/0000738112_350.jpg)
Incidentally, does anyone have the Pandolfo recording of CPE Bach's Gamba works? I listened to a sample and it was really slow in tempo. I'd like to hear an opinion of it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2011, 08:27:13 AM
This composer may be a bit early for our corner, but as is described in Wikipedia, "While Van Maldere's chamber music shows late-baroque characteristics and Corelli's influence, his violinsonatas and symphonies testify to the formation of the early classical 'Viennese' symphony. Most of the symphonies are in three parts, and contain elements as thematic contrast or modulating development. "

Maldere, Pierre van: Sinfonias (Academy of Ancient Music, Bral)

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com.libdata.lib.ua.edu/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/KTC4036.gif)

These works are very worthwhile and the performances on PI are very well realized.

This composer may not be new to others, but was a new find for me, and a very happy one at that.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2011, 08:31:29 AM
Quote from: Leon on June 29, 2011, 08:27:13 AM
This composer may be a bit early for our corner, but as is described in Wikipedia, "While Van Maldere's chamber music shows late-baroque characteristics and Corelli's influence, his violinsonatas and symphonies testify to the formation of the early classical 'Viennese' symphony. Most of the symphonies are in three parts, and contain elements as thematic contrast or modulating development. "

Maldere, Pierre van: Sinfonias (Academy of Ancient Music, Bral)

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com.libdata.lib.ua.edu/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/KTC4036.gif)

These works are very worthwhile and the performances on PI are very well realized.

This composer may not be new to others, but was a new find for me, and a very happy one at that.

:)

New to me, too. Always game to check him out. A lot of these "pre-Classical" guys are so hard to categorize. It makes for interesting listening.

Thanks!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2011, 07:31:39 AM
Benda Brothers - Flute Sonatas w/ the performers listed on the cover art; also back cover image of the performers w/ their instruments - cello & harpsichord are certainly 'period' but not sure about the flute (looks like wood w/ metal keys; little information in the liner notes) - the flute sounds more like those of the period, just a deeper & more resonant tone - according to an excellent review by Jerry Dubins HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=526249), the flute was made in 1950 (which is in the liner notes), so pretty much a 'modern' instrument - still not sure from the sound? Also, not sure if Jerry was the best choice since he states "my tolerance for flute music is only slightly higher than it is for bagpipes and harp" -  ;D

This acquisition makes about 10 discs that I now own of the Benda Bros - in searching this thread, we've had plenty of discussion of this duo, so if interested take a look - and if you like the flute (as I do) in a trio chamber group, then a disc to be considered; superlative sound from Hungaroton, as expected -

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-CqBfms9/0/O/BendaFlute1.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Dw7wScv/0/O/BendaFlute2.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on July 01, 2011, 04:11:20 PM
Hmm...speaking of CPE's disciples...wasn't Jiri Benda one of them?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2011, 04:52:18 PM
Quote from: milk on July 01, 2011, 04:11:20 PM
Hmm...speaking of CPE's disciples...wasn't Jiri Benda one of them?

No. However, his brother Franz was, not a disciple, but a colleague of equal stature with CPE Bach in Potsdam. Bach was a keyboardist and Benda the fiddler in perhaps the most eminent musical establishment in Europe, that of Frederick the Great. Like Emanuel, his music is pre-Classical, more or less transitional, and really very good if you are a violin fan. His teacher was Pisendel. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Raglan Baroque Players / Wallfisch (Solo Violin) - Locatelli Op 3 #05 Concerto in C for Violin 4th mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 04, 2011, 09:13:59 AM
Danzi, Franz (1763-1826) - Symphonies w/ Howard Griffiths & the Orch della Svizzera Italiana - 2 CD set (in a single sized jewel box) -  :D

A different look at Danzi for me, i.e. some of his orchestral output - in addition to this new acquisition, I have about 8 discs of this composer's works, but all chamber compositions (half being his wonderful Wind Quintets) - there are plenty of posts in this thread on this aspect of his composing (and a dedicated thread on the composer but w/ few posts).

These 2 discs contain 6 symphonies (P 218-223 - P refers to Volkmar von Pechstaedt who cataloged Danzi's works) - the liner notes are quite good and extensive (12 pages in English plus other languages); these orchestral pieces were composed in groups of two starting w/ 1790 (or earlier), 1804 (in print), and 1818 (in print); so in that wonderful 'transitional period' between the classical and romantic eras.

For me these look more back into the classical period; each work varies in length from just over 16 mins to 23+ mins.  As expected, the wind writing makes these performances especially fun.  Griffiths appears to have enjoyed conducting these performances, and the recorded sound from CPO is excellent.  Attached is a reviewed from the Am Record Guide (May-June 2011 issue) for those interested! :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HBZjBQx/0/O/DanziSymphonies.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2011, 09:20:34 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 04, 2011, 09:13:59 AM
Danzi, Franz (1763-1826) - Symphonies w/ Howard Griffiths & the Orch della Svizzera Italiana - 2 CD set (in a single sized jewel box) -  :D

A different look at Danzi for me, i.e. some of his orchestral output - in addition to this new acquisition, I have about 8 discs of this composer's works, but all chamber compositions (half being his wonderful Wind Quintets) - there are plenty of posts in this thread on this aspect of his composing (and a dedicated thread on the composer but w/ few posts).

These 2 discs contain 6 symphonies (P 218-223 - P refers to Volkmar von Pechstaedt who cataloged Danzi's works) - the liner notes are quite good and extensive (12 pages in English plus other languages); these orchestral pieces were composed in groups of two starting w/ 1790 (or earlier), 1804 (in print), and 1818 (in print); so in that wonderful 'transitional period' between the classical and romantic eras.

For me these look more back into the classical period; each work varies in length from just over 16 mins to 23+ mins.  As expected, the wind writing makes these performances especially fun.  Griffiths appears to have enjoyed conducting these performances, and the recorded sound from CPO is excellent.  Attached is a reviewed from the Am Record Guide (May-June 2011 issue) for those interested! :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HBZjBQx/0/O/DanziSymphonies.jpg)

Thanks for this info, Dave, it looks like an interesting set. I have a couple of concertos (flute) and sinfonias concertante, but otherwise, like you, it is all chamber music. This one goes on the list, the ever longer list... :D

8)

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Now playing:
Menno van Delft (Clavichord) - Müthel  Arioso #1 in G for Keyboard  pt 06 - Variazione V: Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on July 04, 2011, 12:23:19 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 04, 2011, 09:20:34 AM
This one goes on the list, the ever longer list... :D


somehow, I feel impelled to start rewriting the Lord High Executioner's song....

For I have a little list,
Of recordings that can't be missed

.....

My own little list on Amazon seems to run to over 200 items, of which perhaps 20 are things I really don't expect to get.....
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 05, 2011, 12:10:10 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 04, 2011, 09:13:59 AM
Danzi, Franz (1763-1826) - Symphonies w/ Howard Griffiths & the Orch della Svizzera Italiana - 2 CD set (in a single sized jewel box) -  :D

A different look at Danzi for me, i.e. some of his orchestral output - in addition to this new acquisition, I have about 8 discs of this composer's works, but all chamber compositions (half being his wonderful Wind Quintets) - there are plenty of posts in this thread on this aspect of his composing (and a dedicated thread on the composer but w/ few posts).

These 2 discs contain 6 symphonies (P 218-223 - P refers to Volkmar von Pechstaedt who cataloged Danzi's works) - the liner notes are quite good and extensive (12 pages in English plus other languages); these orchestral pieces were composed in groups of two starting w/ 1790 (or earlier), 1804 (in print), and 1818 (in print); so in that wonderful 'transitional period' between the classical and romantic eras.

For me these look more back into the classical period; each work varies in length from just over 16 mins to 23+ mins.  As expected, the wind writing makes these performances especially fun.  Griffiths appears to have enjoyed conducting these performances, and the recorded sound from CPO is excellent.  Attached is a reviewed from the Am Record Guide (May-June 2011 issue) for those interested! :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HBZjBQx/0/O/DanziSymphonies.jpg)
ooooh! I have this one. I forgot about it! How did that happen - oh yeah, still needs to be ripped!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 15, 2011, 10:17:52 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 15, 2011, 10:05:43 AM
img]http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WKmhDmL/0/O/BachCPEStaier.jpg[/img]

Thanks for the info, Dave. An interesting suggestion, indeed.

Talking about the Freiburger Barockorchester, DHM has announced this set:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886979370524.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2011, 10:19:39 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 15, 2011, 10:17:52 AM
Thanks for the info, Dave. An interesting suggestion, indeed.

Talking about the Freiburger Barockorchester, DHM has announced this set:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0886979370524.jpg)

Hmm, muy interesante. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 15, 2011, 10:32:59 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 15, 2011, 10:19:39 AM
Hmm, muy interesante. :)

8)

Yes, DHM has announced three of those 10-CD sets: Freiburger Barockorchester, Cantus Cölln and Collegium Aureum, all of them formidable Baroque ensembles. Additionally, these sets cover a quite specialized repertoire and the admission price is really attractive (EUR 18 at JPC).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2011, 10:34:14 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 15, 2011, 10:32:59 AM
Yes, DHM has announced three of those 10-CD sets: Freiburger Barockorchester, Cantus Cölln and Collegium Aureum, all of them formidable Baroque ensembles. Additionally, these sets cover a quite specialized repertoire and the entrance price is really attractive (EUR 18 at JPC).

That is attractive. Maybe what it takes to get me to listen to some Zelenka... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2011, 05:56:44 AM
Some good music from somewhat undervalued Classical era composers:

HOFFMEISTER, F.A.: Viola Concertos / STAMITZ, C.P.: Viola Concerto No. 1 (Victoria Chiang, Baltimore Chamber Orchestra, Thakar)

(http://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1307983166_8572162.jpg)

Listening to the Stamitz Viola Concerto No. 1 in D major (Chiang, Victoria - viola; Baltimore Chamber Orchestra;  Thakar, Markand - Conductor) and enjoying the pleasant ease and poise which which he handles the orchestra and soloist - this ease belies some rather striking techinical demands.  The care Stamitz took with the solo part no doubt reflects his own virtuosi level playing of the viola.  The viola is an instrument I like to hear featured, since it's lower range and darker tone (from the violin's) can, in the right hands, convey a quality that appeals to me a great deal.

Stamitz might be a bit more well known and more often performed than Hoffmeister, but neither one can be said to be a major name, although it is easy to be overshadowed when your contemporaries are Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.

This is the first I've heard Victoria Chiang, but she comports herself well bringing out a beautiful tone and expressiveness from what can be a difficult instrument.  The Baltimore Chamber Orchestra led by Markand Thakar provides an appropriately transparent and boyant orchestral sound.

I consider both these composers well worth listening to and this disk offers a nice selection of out-of-the-way works featuring the viola, which, if that is your cup of tea - it is highly recommended by me.

:)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2011, 06:07:18 AM
That looks like an interesting disk, Leon. Thanks for the information about it. I think you're right, Carl Stamitz is rather more well-known than Hoffmeister. Always has been, in fact, because his father, Johann, was one of the premier musicians at the middle of the 18th century. Carl's instrument (that he played) was the viola d'amore, probably being what this concerto was originally composed for. I have a recording of some works of his for that instrument, which includes this concerto, IIRC. It is very nice music, and I think I will avail myself of the opportunity to pick it up since the playing is good here.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on July 18, 2011, 06:28:30 AM
The 2 discs of Carl's duos are fabulous.

(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cm000/m075/m07585v131l.jpg)

(http://www.recordsinternational.com/images/cds/04I/04I036.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2011, 06:48:31 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on July 18, 2011, 06:28:30 AM
The 2 discs of Carl's duos are fabulous.

(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cm000/m075/m07585v131l.jpg)

(http://www.recordsinternational.com/images/cds/04I/04I036.jpg)

I am listening to Vol. 1 right now and agree with your comment - they are wonderful!

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2011, 07:35:49 AM
BENGRAF: 6 String Quartets
Festetics Quartet 

(http://www.hungaroton.hu/files/hungaroton/image/diskimages/HCD_31943.jpg)

Here's a review from the American Record Guide that provides some information on Bengraf (which is somewhat scare) as well as on this particular recording.

QuoteJoseph Bengraf (1745-91) will likely be unknown to most who collect CDs. Indeed, this is the first recording of his set of six String Quartets and is apparently only the second recording of any of his music. As was generally the case with Hungarian musicians, Bengraf was an immigrant. He was born in Wurzburg, but little is known about his early life. By the 1770s he was living in Hungary and spent the rest of his life there. He served as music director for Hungarian families and eventually worked for Archbishop Jozsef Batthyany in Pest. He later became choirmaster at Pest's downtown church. Here he obtained scores from many Viennese masters.

It is not known when his set of quartets was written--maybe at different times, for the quality varies. Five of the six have three movements, but the final one has four. I wasn't particularly impressed by the first two. 3:II is an intense slow movement; 3:III is a delightful quick movement. From here on the quality improves. The structure in all remains quite simple, though. Thematically they remind me of Haydn, though their overall structure is closer to Haydn's earliest quartets.

The performances seem dedicated. The Festetics Quartet is one of the best period-instruments ensembles. The notes are very thorough and the recordings are good but a trifle dry.

These are really quite peripheral quartets; they will be of greatest interest to those who want a broad overview of late 18th Century quartets.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 18, 2011, 07:56:22 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 18, 2011, 05:56:44 AM
Some good music from somewhat undervalued Classical era composers:

HOFFMEISTER, F.A.: Viola Concertos / STAMITZ, C.P.: Viola Concerto No. 1 (Victoria Chiang, Baltimore Chamber Orchestra, Thakar)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MzBr7aJBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41-vMQ5WxcL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Boy, I've not thought about Carl Stamitz in a while; own a half dozen discs of his music (mainly chamber works + a single symphony disc) - now playing the disc inserted above, i.e. viola d'amore concertos - the first work is listed as Concerto No. 1 in D Major (same as the viola concerto of Stamitz in the disc discussed by Leon - I'm assuming that these are the same work played on different instruments); some more information on the Viola d'amore HERE (http://www.violadamoresocietyofamerica.org/Vda.html) -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2011, 08:08:05 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 18, 2011, 07:56:22 AM
Boy, I've not thought about Carl Stamitz in a while; own a half dozen discs of his music (mainly chamber works + a single symphony disc) - now playing the disc inserted above, i.e. viola d'amore concertos - the first work is listed as Concerto No. 1 in D Major (same as the viola concerto of Stamitz in the disc discussed by Leon - I'm assuming that these are the same work played on different instruments); some more information on the Viola d'amore HERE (http://www.violadamoresocietyofamerica.org/Vda.html) -  :D

Dave,
Yes, that Profil disk is the one I have that I mentioned below. I thought it might be the same work. Having them both in D major makes it hard to use process of elimination... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 18, 2011, 08:37:05 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 18, 2011, 08:08:05 AM
Dave,
Yes, that Profil disk is the one I have that I mentioned below. I thought it might be the same work. Having them both in D major makes it hard to use process of elimination... :D

Yep, a different number and/or key would have help!  ;D  Although I guess that Stamitz could have transposed the same work for different instruments - the viola d'amore was tuned in a variety of ways (according to the link in my post above).

I also was searching for his oeuvre but no luck; according to this Wiki Article (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Stamitz), a catalog was published in 1810 but was lost; now I do see some Opus numbers on other Stamitz discs that I own - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2011, 08:40:52 AM
Have been listening to an interesting disc, string quartets from three Swedish Classical era composers - not something I've ever even thought about before!

(http://ml.naxos.jp/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/MSCD425.gif)

String Quartets - Anders WESSTROM / Joachim Nikolas EGGERT / Johan Martin de RON (Salomon String Quartet)

The informative booklet says that Sweden did not have a well-defined tradition of quartet writing, at least not as well-defined after Haydn, Mozart and their contemporaries had made their advances in this genre - however, these three examples are fairly straight-forward, but not exhibiting as much motivic develoment as would be found in a Haydn quartet, but still fitting easily in the Classical quartet style.

The three composers are different from each other, the booket identifies Wesstrom and Eggert as the most gifted, Johan Martin de Ron was an amateur and student of Eggert, whose livlihood was as that of a merchant businessman.  His experience in trade might have saved Eggert's life if only Eggert had taken his advice not to travel:

QuoteEggert travelled south, to Osteergotland, perhaps en route for Germany - de Ron despaired. In a letter written in 1812 he writes: "In God's name, come back, Mr Eggert, for to whom shall I now turn to conclude my musical studies? Is it nothing to you that I and all other me friends of music want to see you among us?" And he offers to pay Eggert whatever he asks to eke out his salary as conductor of the Royal Orchestra. But Eggert never returned to Stockholm, and for that matter he never got to Germany either. De Ron, indeed, warned him against travelling to the Continent during the periolous times of the Napoleonic Wars. He knew what he was talking about, because he came from a trading family ...

Are there any businessmen of our time who have the talent, skill and inclination to write music of this quality?  I can't think of any ...

The Salomon Quartet play these works with affection and finesse.

I found it on NML (as were all of these recordings I've mentioned in the last several posts) -  and can say it is a disc I am happy to have found since I never would have heard Classical period music from Sweden in any other way.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2011, 11:52:19 AM
HUMMEL, J.N. / DUSSEK, J.L. / ONSLOW, G.: Piano Quintets (Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet)

(http://cdn.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/BC93203.gif)

Fantastic disc of three piano quintets (with fortepiano) by three very good but arguably under-recorded Classical era composers.

:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2011, 11:59:34 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 20, 2011, 11:52:19 AM
HUMMEL, J.N. / DUSSEK, J.L. / ONSLOW, G.: Piano Quintets (Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet)

(http://cdn.classicsonline.com/images/cds/others/BC93203.gif)

Fantastic disc of three piano quintets (with fortepiano) by three very good but arguably under-recorded Classical era composers.

:D

I thought you would like that disk, Leon. I would say that the entire series so far (4 disks IIRC) is equally interesting and enjoyable. I like the one with Cramer and Dussek in particular. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2011, 12:29:51 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 20, 2011, 11:59:34 AM
I thought you would like that disk, Leon. I would say that the entire series so far (4 disks IIRC) is equally interesting and enjoyable. I like the one with Cramer and Dussek in particular. :)

8)

Three more in a series?  Well, I'll have to look for those -  ;)

Thanks for the head's up!

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 20, 2011, 04:42:44 PM
Quote from: Leon on July 20, 2011, 12:29:51 PM
Three more in a series?  Well, I'll have to look for those -  ;)

Thanks for the head's up!

Gurn - I'm w/ Leon - I've had the CD shown by him for quite a while; is there a series being put out by Brilliant?  Just curious - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2011, 04:55:18 PM
Sorry, guys, I thought I had posted these already!

[asin]B000176JUM[/asin]
[asin]B001LPNV8Q[/asin]
[asin]B000U1ZJOQ[/asin]
[asin]B004CPLEC2[/asin]


What they have in common is that they are all piano quintets with violin, viola, cello & bass. In other words, the same scoring as "The Trout". I, along with many others, thought that was an unusual scoring, since later on we got the "standard" of piano and string quartet. But these guys have found bunches of works in this scoring, representing 25 or more different composers of that era. There are some surprises in here too, like the Limmer, which is one of the best, despite that we've never heard of him!  And good playing too, as you have already discovered from that first disk that you have.  :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 74 Quartet in g for Strings Op 74 #3 3rd mvmt - Menuet: Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 20, 2011, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 20, 2011, 04:55:18 PM
Sorry, guys, I thought I had posted these already!

What they have in common is that they are all piano quintets with violin, viola, cello & bass. In other words, the same scoring as "The Trout". I, along with many others, thought that was an unusual scoring, since later on we got the "standard" of piano and string quartet. But these guys have found bunches of works in this scoring, representing 25 or more different composers of that era. There are some surprises in here too, like the Limmer, which is one of the best, despite that we've never heard of him!  And good playing too, as you have already discovered from that first disk that you have.  :)


Gurn - thanks for the posting of the images - I'm sure these have been already discussed; just after dinner and feeling somewhat lethargic (maybe too much wine -  ;) ;D) - checked my collection and also own the Ries recording, but will definitely look into the other ones - I do like that group!  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2011, 05:39:36 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 20, 2011, 04:55:18 PM
Sorry, guys, I thought I had posted these already!

[asin]B000176JUM[/asin]
[asin]B001LPNV8Q[/asin]
[asin]B000U1ZJOQ[/asin]
[asin]B004CPLEC2[/asin]


What they have in common is that they are all piano quintets with violin, viola, cello & bass. In other words, the same scoring as "The Trout". I, along with many others, thought that was an unusual scoring, since later on we got the "standard" of piano and string quartet. But these guys have found bunches of works in this scoring, representing 25 or more different composers of that era. There are some surprises in here too, like the Limmer, which is one of the best, despite that we've never heard of him!  And good playing too, as you have already discovered from that first disk that you have.  :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 74 Quartet in g for Strings Op 74 #3 3rd mvmt - Menuet: Allegretto

Thanks Gurn - I ended up ordering two I didn't have that were very cheap, < $4 - but the other one was only available from overseas so I passed for now.  These are real find.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2011, 05:46:26 PM
Quote from: Leon on July 20, 2011, 05:39:36 PM
Thanks Gurn - I ended up ordering two I didn't have that were very cheap, < $4 - but the other one was only available from overseas so I passed for now.  These are real find.

:)

Leon,
Yes, that's what I thought. Looking at my Amazon purchase dates, I first saw these in 2008, and was immediately taken by them. I got the 4th one as a throw-in on a much larger order from MDT for about £1.5   :)  From reading the booklets, I came away with the idea that there was the potential for several more disks if they are able to get them done. I hope so. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 03 77 4 Variations for Keyboard on Gott Erhalte pt 1 - Poco Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on July 21, 2011, 02:16:17 AM
Talk of Onslow led me back to my stash. Listened to this just now in the car and enjoyed it immensely. A bass is most effectively substituted for one of the cellos, per the composer's ad libitum instruction.

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/25/fe/0013fe25_medium.jpeg)

Edited to add this review:

QuoteThe name of George Onslow is happily cropping up quite often nowadays and I must confess that I have been utterly enthralled by his chamber music after encountering the first volume of quintets on the MD&G label. This second volume featuring Op. 34 and 35 was thus eagerly anticipated by this reviewer.

The A minor work has a splendid opening movement lasting all of thirteen minutes with an almost symphonic scope that is quite marvelously played by Quintetto Momento Musicale. The Minuet is also pretty dapper whilst the pensive Adagio espressivo is also very beautiful. The final Allegro non troppo presto is a suitable conclusion to this fine work that is most certainly one of the most impressive I've heard in recent years.

The G Major is slightly more sunny and optimistic with a rambling Allegro spirituoso assai that opens proceedings in a very positive manner. Onslow again places the slow movement in third place and the Andante cantabile is quite ravishing whilst the Presto finale is also quite magnificent.

I may seem overtly enthusiastic on this composer but MD&G have definitely hit on a rare breed, the unknown and overlooked genius in the shape of George Onslow. The magnificent painting on the front depicting the children of Charles the First also matches perfectly with the previous issue's depiction. The musicians of Quintetto Momento Musicale are sympathetic and committed interpreters summing up one of the major chamber releases of the year.

Copyright © 2004, Gerald Fenech
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2011, 04:11:57 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on July 21, 2011, 02:16:17 AM
Talk of Onslow led me back to my stash. Listened to this just now in the car and enjoyed it immensely. A bass is most effectively substituted for one of the cellos, per the composer's ad libitum instruction.

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/25/fe/0013fe25_medium.jpeg)

Edited to add this review:

chas,
Yes, that's a nice disk, I enjoy it a lot. Onslow is a consistently fine composer. IMO, he is the best composer of chamber music to ever work in France. Other French composers may have done some overall better music, but not in that medium. MD&G has done well by him too, as well as cpo. Nice to at least be able to get some of his work if you are so inclined. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mszczuj on July 21, 2011, 04:31:36 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 21, 2011, 04:11:57 AM
Onslow is a consistently fine composer. IMO, he is the best composer of chamber music to ever work in France. Other French composers may have done some overall better music, but not in that medium.

You mean he is without question better as composer of chamber music than Faure and Magnard?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2011, 04:32:28 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on July 21, 2011, 04:31:36 AM
You mean he is without question better as composer of chamber music than Faure and Magnard?

In my opinion. Although you should note the thread title. We don't talk (or even care about "all time". We talk about the Classical and early Romantic periods.  That said, and being very familiar with Faure at least, my answer stands. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mszczuj on July 21, 2011, 04:59:45 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 21, 2011, 04:32:28 AM
In my opinion. :)

Of course. I know that it is your opinion. But I don't know chamber music of Onslow - his symphonies are very very good - but not as good for me to make me expecting his chamber music will be such a miracle to surpass Faure and Magnard. For me Violin Sonata of Magnard is one of two best pieces in that genre I ever heard (the second is Prokofiev's in F minor) his other chamber pieces are very good too and all music of Faure is just excellent. The real sense of my question is if your opinion is so valid for me that I must immediately begin to study Onslow chamber music

So may be I should ask in other form: if Onslow is best who is the second, the third, the fourth...?

Or: What do you think about Magnard's Violin Sonata?

And then there is another important question: which chamber composition of Onslow is the really best of them all?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on July 21, 2011, 06:59:52 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on July 21, 2011, 04:59:45 AM
Of course. I know that it is your opinion. But I don't know chamber music of Onslow - his symphonies are very very good - but not as good for me to make me expecting his chamber music will be such a miracle to surpass Faure and Magnard. For me Violin Sonata of Magnard is one of two best pieces in that genre I ever heard (the second is Prokofiev's in F minor) his other chamber pieces are very good too and all music of Faure is just excellent. The real sense of my question is if your opinion is so valid for me that I must immediately begin to study Onslow chamber music

So may be I should ask in other form: if Onslow is best who is the second, the third, the fourth...?

Or: What do you think about Magnard's Violin Sonata?

And then there is another important question: which chamber composition of Onslow is the really best of them all?


Have a listen to Onslows chamber music, there is nothing like one's own experience to judge :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 21, 2011, 07:22:28 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on July 21, 2011, 02:16:17 AM
Talk of Onslow led me back to my stash. Listened to this just now in the car and enjoyed it immensely. A bass is most effectively substituted for one of the cellos, per the composer's ad libitum instruction.

(http://pixhost.info/avaxhome/25/fe/0013fe25_medium.jpeg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GaWEvAXkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, Onslow is quite enjoyable; I've owned the above disc (left) for a while (in fact have about a half dozen of his String Quintets in my collection) - also just put in an Amazon MP order the the disc added above - can't imagine how that one escaped me -  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on July 21, 2011, 07:35:09 AM
This one is very good (this is one I found about through GMG)
[asin]B002UOOM30[/asin]
There's also a whole ramification of Onlsow's chamber music on CPO.

Think of him as being someone who seriously assimilated what Beethoven did with his string quartets.  Did not necessarily reach Beethovenian heights, but he knew the heights were there.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Grazioso on July 22, 2011, 05:37:40 AM
Anyone know of a book that collects or summarizes contemporary reviews/criticism from the Classical Period?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2011, 05:58:21 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on July 22, 2011, 05:37:40 AM
Anyone know of a book that collects or summarizes contemporary reviews/criticism from the Classical Period?

I haven't seen one (else I would have it!), but lots of books have them scattered around. It would be a highly interesting topic, I think. Sometimes, depending on the composer, you can google the composer's name along with the word "reception"... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Grazioso on July 22, 2011, 06:03:46 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 22, 2011, 05:58:21 AM
I haven't seen one (else I would have it!), but lots of books have them scattered around. It would be a highly interesting topic, I think. Sometimes, depending on the composer, you can google the composer's name along with the word "reception"... :-\

8)

Yes, I stumble across quotes taken from papers of the day, and invariably, it's interesting to see how they perceived music at the time, but I sure wish there were some scholarly collection of that criticism to get a better idea of whom and what was valued at the time.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2011, 06:29:08 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on July 22, 2011, 05:37:40 AM
Anyone know of a book that collects or summarizes contemporary reviews/criticism from the Classical Period?

Charles Burney wrote contemporaneous reviews of musical events from the 18th century, as well as several books on the "state of music" in various parts of Europe.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2011, 07:19:37 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 22, 2011, 06:29:08 AM
Charles Burney wrote contemporaneous reviews of musical events from the 18th century, as well as several books on the "state of music" in various parts of Europe.

My same thought - Charles Burney (1726-1814) lived a LONG time and exactly in the period of interest; he is oft quoted in the liner notes of recordings from those times, and he did write quite a bit just not sure if much is available in one source - just check Project Gutenberg and could find nothing w/ his name attached -  :-\
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 22, 2011, 07:47:41 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2011, 07:19:37 AM
My same thought - Charles Burney (1726-1814) lived a LONG time and exactly in the period of interest; he is oft quoted in the liner notes of recordings from those times, and he did write quite a bit just not sure if much is available in one source - just check Project Gutenberg and could find nothing w/ his name attached -  :-\

I think you will find something of your interest here, Dave:

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Charles%20Burney

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2011, 08:04:10 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 22, 2011, 07:47:41 AM
I think you will find something of your interest here, Dave:

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Charles%20Burney

Thanks!  :D  Kind of stopped searching after nothing on Project Gutenberg, obviously you found PLENTY!  Think that I'll download the Vol. 1 to my iPad and take a look - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 22, 2011, 08:07:37 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 22, 2011, 08:04:10 AM
Thanks!  :D  Kind of stopped searching after nothing on Project Gutenberg, obviously you found PLENTY!  Think that I'll download the Vol. 1 to my iPad and take a look - Dave  :)

I just recently found this wonderful source. Currently I am reading a book by Albert Schweitzer devoted to Bach. It's just wonderful! The best book about Bach's music and influence that I have ever read and written 100 years ago...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2011, 09:34:29 AM
Another new discovery for me, a period instrument group that seems to specialize in Classical era composers such as Stamitz, Fesca, Krommer, and Vanhal: the Authentic Quartet.

I'm listening to Stamitz Clarinet Quartets right now on NML:

(http://ml.naxos.jp/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/HCD32561.jpg)

but hope some of the other recordings like these are also on NML:

[asin]B000FUF91U[/asin]

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm800/m841/m84130dbn2f.jpg)

[asin]B001OP4L6O[/asin]

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2011, 09:55:07 AM
From the Authentic Quartet's website (http://www.authenticquartet.hu/index.php?disp=eng) I read this about them:

QuoteThe quartet was founded by Zsolt Kalló in 2002 with the aim of focusing on historically informed performance and representing the music of the former epochs with a true presentation through musical rarities and well known masterpieces. Authentic Quartet is Hungary's leading period instrument string quartet, performing the works of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Schumann as well as the finest works of their lesser known contemporaries. Beside numerous radio recordings we are invited to prestigious festivals, for example the "Haydn at Eszterháza" Festival, Early Music Days in Sopron, String Quartet Festival in the Esterházy Castle and Zemplen Festival. We are glad to play where our music actually belongs - in castles and mansions.

9 CDs were released at HUNGAROTON - all World Premiere Recordings, works of Werner, Georg Lickl, Nikolaus Zmeskáll, Friedrich Ernst Fesca, J. G. Albrechtsberger, Joseph Wölfl, Franz Krommer, Carl Stamitz (with clarinet solo of Lajos Rozmán) and Johann Baptist Vanhal - with the solo of Miklós Spányi on fortepiano. We are continually searching for high quality music in Hungarian and foreign libraries and private collections, and once we find a manuscript that matches our criteria, we prepare playable scores to put the music on our concert repertoire.

It certainly is good to have another PI quartet specializing in the Classical period, especially releasing recordings of works otherwise unavailable.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2011, 09:59:43 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 22, 2011, 09:55:07 AM
From the Authentic Quartet's website (http://www.authenticquartet.hu/index.php?disp=eng) I read this about them:

It certainly is good to have another PI quartet specializing in the Classical period, especially releasing recordings of works otherwise unavailable.

I have the Wölfl and Lickl disks and am very pleased with them. I agree with you, it is nice that we aren't getting another set of Mozart or Haydn out of them. As much as I love those works, they are pretty well covered. But the list you quoted is certainly not!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on July 23, 2011, 08:17:26 AM
Quote from: toñito on July 22, 2011, 07:47:41 AM
I think you will find something of your interest here, Dave:

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Charles%20Burney

8)

Wow! I have been looking for something like this for a long time! 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 23, 2011, 08:42:54 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 22, 2011, 09:34:29 AM
Another new discovery for me, a period instrument group that seems to specialize in Classical era composers such as Stamitz, Fesca, Krommer, and Vanhal: the Authentic Quartet.

I'm listening to Stamitz Clarinet Quartets right now on NML:


Hi Leon - I own the Krommer & Vanhal recordings w/ this group, and would be quite interested in the Stamitz, so what do you think off the NML?

Also have the Albrechtsberger: Three SQs & the Lickl: Three SQs - thanks -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 30, 2011, 09:33:27 AM
I don't know if he (Wilhelm Friedemann Bach) belongs exactly to this Corner, but this conversation on Carl Philipp Emanuel, recalled me this 2-CD set:

[asin]B003LDKHOC[/asin]

It's a well known fact that JS Bach and his sons contributed considerably to the repertoire for keyboard and orchestra, but few weeks ago I did read these interesting numbers: JSB transcribed or composed over thirty concertos for the keyboard and four of his sons contributed more than a hundred works to the genre: Wilhelm Friedemann (7), Carl Philipp Emanuel (over 50), Johann Christoph Friedrich (16) and Johann Christian (nearly 30). Thus JSB and his four composer sons alone were responsible for over 130 keyboard concertos!

BTW, Astronio is really, really excellent on these early keyboard concertos.  :)   

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 10:51:37 AM
Hummel & Onslow Piano Quintets, Op. 74 & 70, respectively w/ the Nepomuk Fortepiano Quintet; already own the other offering by this excellent group (below, right; i.e. Op. 87 & 67) - Riko Fukuda, the keyboard performer, plays on two different fortepianos, a Walter & Sohn (Vienna, 1822) for the Hummel & a Pleyel (Paris, 1842) for the Onslow; and the string players use gut strings, presumably reproducing the likely sound of these works from the times.  I own numerous recordings of these composers and both wrote excellent chamber works - and the pricing from Brilliant cannot be topped - highly recommended! :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-SzVSVrT/0/O/HummelOnslowPQuintets.jpg)  (http://images.pricerunner.com/product/image/81294725/Nepomuk-Fortepiano-Quintet-Dussek-Hummel-Onslow-Piano-Quintets.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on July 31, 2011, 11:14:13 AM
Quote from: Leon on July 22, 2011, 09:34:29 AM
Another new discovery for me, a period instrument group that seems to specialize in Classical era composers such as Stamitz, Fesca, Krommer, and Vanhal: the Authentic Quartet.

I'm listening to Stamitz Clarinet Quartets right now on NML:

(http://ml.naxos.jp/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/HCD32561.jpg)

but hope some of the other recordings like these are also on NML:

[asin]B000FUF91U[/asin]

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm800/m841/m84130dbn2f.jpg)

[asin]B001OP4L6O[/asin]




Speaking of the excellant Authentic quartet, I would like to recommend this wonderful disk of string quartets from Nikolaus Zmeskall:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61DHSPGA2AL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I did a quick search on the forum to see whether or not this interesting composer has been discussed, but didn't find anything yet. Here is a quick sketch of his life I found on a Beethoven page.

Quote

(http://www.madaboutbeethoven.com/pages/people_and_places/people_friends/pics/zmeskall.jpg)

Nikolaus Zmeskall (1759-1833)

One of Beethoven's few close personal friends in Vienna, Zmeskall was an official in the Hungarian Chancellery.

He was a capable amateur cellist - and very short-sighted. Beethoven composed the Duet "obligato for two pairs of spectacles" WoO 32 in 1796-7 for viola and cello for Zmeskall and him to play together when he too had begun to wear spectacles.

A great number of letters and notes from Beethoven to his friend have survived. From them it is evident he enjoyed making jokes at Zmeskall's expense.

He addresses him, among other things, as Baron Muckcart Driver - a pun on the meaning of Zmeskall's name in Hungarian.

Many of the notes give a nice insight into Beethoven's life away from music ..... "Let us meet at 6 o'clock at the Schwann Inn and drink some of their dreadful red wine...." he writes to Zmeskall on one occasion.

Zmeskall often helped Beethoven in practical matters such as finding a servant. By the 1820s he was confined to a wheelchair with severe gout, but managed - to Beethoven's delight - to be present at the first performance of the Ninth Symphony on 7th May 1824 at the Kärntnertor theatre.

Beethoven's final letter to his old friend was written only a month before he died.

"My very dear friend! A thousand thanks for your sympathy. I do not despair. But what is most painful to me is the complete cessation of my activities. Yet there is no evil which has not something good in it as well - May Heaven grant you too an alleviation of your painful condition. Perhaps we shall both be restored to health and then we shall meet and see one another again as friendly neighbours - Heartfelt greetings from your old friend who sympathises with you. BEETHOVEN."

Five weeks later Beethoven died, his friend outliving him by six years.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2011, 11:24:31 AM
Nice info on Zmeskall there, Leo. I have read a lot about him in books on Beethoven, but one thing I hadn't ever taken away from those is that he also was a composer! Thayer, for example, doesn't mention that, despite going on for pages about what good friends they were. I did know about the WoO 32, I always found its subtitle amusing, and in fact it is a nice little work that is frequently overlooked even by folks who are intimately familiar with all of Beethoven's 'big' works. I will look into those quartets. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Goodman, The Hanover Band - Hob 01 071 Symphony in Bb 2nd mvmt - Adagio
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 31, 2011, 11:28:52 AM
I posted this earlier on the recordings being considered page, but not much action there, so I am reposting here in hopes for some responses (one thing I did not mention is the price difference in my original post - the first is $10-20 more expensive, so that is also a consideration):

Danzi: Wind Quintets. Anyone familiar with either of these? From what I can see, I should try to get Reicha box first. Do You agree? I have so far liked both Reicha and Danzi in some other pickups first (which I made in the case of Reicha, because 10 discs is a lot of music from a composer you never heard!). Here are the two sets:


[asin]B002AT465O[/asin]
[asin]B000SQKZ2Y[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2011, 11:41:09 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 31, 2011, 11:28:52 AM
I posted this earlier on the recordings being considered page, but not much action there, so I am reposting here in hopes for some responses (one thing I did not mention is the price difference in my original post - the first is $10-20 more expensive, so that is also a consideration):

Danzi: Wind Quintets. Anyone familiar with either of these? From what I can see, I should try to get Reicha box first. Do You agree? I have so far liked both Reicha and Danzi in some other pickups first (which I made in the case of Reicha, because 10 discs is a lot of music from a composer you never heard!). Here are the two sets:


[asin]B002AT465O[/asin]
[asin]B000SQKZ2Y[/asin]

You must have caught me napping, Neal!   :-[

I have the Berlin Philharmonic Wind Quintet box (because it was available AND affordable) and the playing on it is very fine. That said, there are a couple of points to consider.

Danzi is a good composer, no doubt. His quintets are nicely written and very entertaining. However, if you (as I do) place Reicha on the supreme pedestal of wind quintet writing, then Danzi approaches him at times, but rarely equals and never surpasses. I think it is a question of inspiration, possibly. Reicha was inspired when he wrote his quintets. And to be honest, Danzi was a very good composer, but IMO Reicha was a great composer.

Still, I wouldn't pass them up just because of one person's opinion. And if the question of more expensive is not a particular issue at this time, then without a doubt I would get the version on period instruments. The timbre and color, especially of winds, might very well make the critical difference in your enjoyment. At the time that I got the BIS box, the other didn't appear on Amazon yet. If I had known, I would have gone that route. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Goodman, The Hanover Band - Hob 01 071 Symphony in Bb 3rd mvmt - Menuetto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on July 31, 2011, 01:39:54 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 31, 2011, 11:24:31 AM
Nice info on Zmeskall there, Leo. I have read a lot about him in books on Beethoven, but one thing I hadn't ever taken away from those is that he also was a composer! Thayer, for example, doesn't mention that, despite going on for pages about what good friends they were. I did know about the WoO 32, I always found its subtitle amusing, and in fact it is a nice little work that is frequently overlooked even by folks who are intimately familiar with all of Beethoven's 'big' works. I will look into those quartets. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Goodman, The Hanover Band - Hob 01 071 Symphony in Bb 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Gurn, I think you will enjoy Zmeskall's quartets. Suprisingly they run rather long, and feel rather epic because of it :) In a good way of course  8)

For example, the adagio for the g minor quartet runs about 9:13 minutes in duration  ;D



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 31, 2011, 03:22:30 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 31, 2011, 11:24:31 AM
Nice info on Zmeskall there, Leo. I have read a lot about him in books on Beethoven, but one thing I hadn't ever taken away from those is that he also was a composer! Thayer, for example, doesn't mention that, despite going on for pages about what good friends they were. I did know about the WoO 32, I always found its subtitle amusing, and in fact it is a nice little work that is frequently overlooked even by folks who are intimately familiar with all of Beethoven's 'big' works. I will look into those quartets. :)

Leo & Gurn - not aware of this guy as a composer - thanks for the info - will look into that disc!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2011, 09:09:40 AM
Wölfl, Joseph (1773-1812) - String Quartets, Op. 4 w/ the Authentic Quartet - just arrived and my 5th disc of this short-lived composer's music which I have found quite good - he was born in Salzburg and his early teachers there were Leopold Mozart & Michael Haydn; apparently a tall man for the time (over 6') and with large hands that could span an octave and a half on a fortepiano.

A short Wiki Article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_W%C3%B6lfl); interestingly, his works are listed starting w/ an Op. 20 Piano Concerto (of which he wrote 6); Symphonies (2, Op. 40 & 41); String Quartets (Op. 30, Nos.1-3 & Op. & 6 in Op. 51), along w/ 7 Operas & a Duo.  He obviously wrote a LOT of music w/ many missing early and late Opus numbers, including the the Op. 4 SQs listed on the image below.

My other recordings include Piano Sonatas (Op. 25, 33, & 28); Fortepiano/Harp Duos (Op. 29, 37, 44); and Piano Concertos, No. 1,5, & 6 (Op. 20, 43, & 49) - would be curious if anyone has heard his Symphonies? A recording of these latter works is listed but not pictured on Amazon USA - rather pricey for a single disc - :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-QBNndjk/0/O/WolflSQs.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 05, 2011, 04:46:46 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2011, 09:09:40 AM
Wölfl, Joseph (1773-1812) - String Quartets, Op. 4 w/ the Authentic Quartet - just arrived and my 5th disc of this short-lived composer's music which I have found quite good - he was born in Salzburg and his early teachers there were Leopold Mozart & Michael Haydn; apparently a tall man for the time (over 6') and with large hands that could span an octave and a half on a fortepiano.

A short Wiki Article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_W%C3%B6lfl); interestingly, his works are listed starting w/ an Op. 20 Piano Concerto (of which he wrote 6); Symphonies (2, Op. 40 & 41); String Quartets (Op. 30, Nos.1-3 & Op. & 6 in Op. 51), along w/ 7 Operas & a Duo.  He obviously wrote a LOT of music w/ many missing early and late Opus numbers, including the the Op. 4 SQs listed on the image below.

My other recordings include Piano Sonatas (Op. 25, 33, & 28); Fortepiano/Harp Duos (Op. 29, 37, 44); and Piano Concertos, No. 1,5, & 6 (Op. 20, 43, & 49) - would be curious if anyone has heard his Symphonies? A recording of these latter works is listed but not pictured on Amazon USA - rather pricey for a single disc - :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-QBNndjk/0/O/WolflSQs.jpg)


Dave, I just aquired this disk too, and his piano concertos on the CPO release, but have yet to hear them, but will after my opera sojourn. I look forward to your thoughts!

And yes, I have heard Wolfl's symphonies and found them interesting, even odd in how he handles the orchestration. but not "bad" orchestration by any means, rather, his style his unique.  8)

(http://img1.wantitall.co.za/images/ShowImage.aspx?ImageId=Pratum-Integrum-Orchestra-Wolf-The-Symphonies%7C41SVMCPTZNL.jpg)

I am desirous of hearing his piano sonatas at some point!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2011, 04:59:10 PM
Well, Caro Mitis is pretty good to Wölfl, I guess. :)  This disk

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/WolflSQcover.jpg)

is the Op 30 quartets. I have the Op 4 also, and two of the Colladant disks, as well as the cpo disk of piano concertos. I don't have that symphonies disk though, Leo, and frankly your description intrigues me. I like quirky. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Island Quartet - Hummel S 46 Trio in G for 2 Violas & Cello 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegretto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2011, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 05, 2011, 04:59:10 PM
Well, Caro Mitis is pretty good to Wölfl, I guess. :)  This disk

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/WolflSQcover.jpg)  (http://img1.wantitall.co.za/images/ShowImage.aspx?ImageId=Pratum-Integrum-Orchestra-Wolf-The-Symphonies%7C41SVMCPTZNL.jpg)

is the Op 30 quartets. I have the Op 4 also, and two of the Colladant disks, as well as the cpo disk of piano concertos. I don't have that symphonies disk though, Leo, and frankly your description intrigues me. I like quirky. :D

Hey Gurn & Leo - those Caro Mitis discs are certainly of interest and would complement my collection, but going for $23 each @ Amazon & $20 a piece at HBDirect - maybe a download option?  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 10, 2011, 02:21:27 AM
This set is calling my name! Sure looks attractive. What say the brain trust?

(http://images.cdquest.com/images/album_art/sized/200/0675754034467.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2011, 04:15:00 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on August 10, 2011, 02:21:27 AM
This set is calling my name! Sure looks attractive. What say the brain trust?

(http://images.cdquest.com/images/album_art/sized/200/0675754034467.jpg)

Well, I don't know about them, but as for myself, that looks interesting as can be. I have the complete violin concertos on that same label, and I can't help but think that they must make up some substantial portion of this set too. I need to look at the rest and see what's there. I have a set of his string quartets that are quite entertaining, but as nearly as I can remember, that's all my Viotti. Worth checking out, thanks for pointing it out! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 10, 2011, 06:02:49 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on August 10, 2011, 02:21:27 AM
This set is calling my name! Sure looks attractive. What say the brain trust?

(http://images.cdquest.com/images/album_art/sized/200/0675754034467.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FBGHcpVdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Well, cannot comment on that particular set - I just have 1 Viotti disc (inserted above) w/ the VC #22 - wanted to hear a few before committing to a BIG box a while back, but left my radar screen and cannot even remember which performer I was considering.  So will keep an eye on subsequent posts - now does one need 29 Violin Concertos by the same guy?  Well that's the GMG, I guess -  ;) ;D   Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 10, 2011, 07:07:58 AM
Well, I answered the call. I'll let y'all know what's what when it gets here.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 08:22:54 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MIW0-AJUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wow. A revisit to this disk is a great delight! Especially the F Major Symphony, which prefigures Romanticism in many subtle ways (i.e. the introduction to the first movement), it's also a great example of a rare classical work (from an obscure composer) that reaches the heights of sublimity. The whole disk, however, is a jewel. Another highlight is Kozeluch's only G Minor symphony.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 08:29:29 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 08:22:54 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MIW0-AJUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wow. A revisit to this disk is a great delight! Especially the F Major Symphony, which prefigures Romanticism in many subtle ways (i.e. the introduction to the first movement), it's also a great example of a rare classical work (from an obscure composer) that reaches the heights of sublimity. The whole disk, however, is a jewel. Another highlight is Kozeluch's only G Minor symphony.

8)

Know what you mean, Leo. Kozeluch, on occasion, really does reach the heights. I think that many composers do, and we value them according to how often. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 08 03bis March in Eb 'For the Royal Society of Musicians'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 09:02:59 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 08:29:29 AM
Know what you mean, Leo. Kozeluch, on occasion, really does reach the heights. I think that many composers do, and we value them according to how often. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 08 03bis March in Eb 'For the Royal Society of Musicians'

That's a succinct and excellent way to put it Gurn!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 09:14:28 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K3F7D8T5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am absolutely impressed with the sound of the fortepiano in this grand set of JC Bach's keyboard concertos. I am also bowled over by JC Bach himself. Of the Bach bros I've heard, JC is the one I seem to gravitate to lately, although each Bach bro is special, each in their own way.

I don't have the box, but have collected five of the single releases. Right now, I'm listening to the C Major concerto from the Op.7 set. What a bright mood this work is, also a thoughtful musical argument. The second movement is so calm and progresses with conversational brilliance.

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 09:43:58 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 09:02:59 AM
That's a succinct and excellent way to put it Gurn!

:)  I've been thinking about this for a long time. When I joined here, circa 2002, if I mentioned one of those obscure composers I got a lot of flack over it, like "why do you want to listen to him? He's no [enter famous composer name here]". Well, I realized that a lot of it is because I knew there was a reason why these guys were esteemed in their own time, and I needed to listen to enough of their music to discover why. And that's what I came up with. What is good is often excellent! I don't mind the investment in time and music, it's what I do! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 08 03bis March in Eb 'For the Royal Society of Musicians'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 09:14:28 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K3F7D8T5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am absolutely impressed with the sound of the fortepiano in this grand set of JC Bach's keyboard concertos. I am also bowled over by JC Bach himself. Of the Bach bros I've heard, JC is the one I seem to gravitate to lately, although each Bach bro is special, each in their own way.

I don't have the box, but have collected five of the single releases. Right now, I'm listening to the C Major concerto from the Op.7 set. What a bright mood this work is, also a thoughtful musical argument. The second movement is so calm and progresses with conversational brilliance.

8)

I've been looking at that box. I have, on Philips, Ingrid Haebler playing Op 1 & Op 7 on the fortepiano, and very nice version it is. But that's not to say I'm not interested in these here. Who is the keyboardist there? I know Halstead is a hornist... :)

8)

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Now playing:
Bart van Oort - Hob 08 03 March in Eb for Keyboard
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 10:12:11 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 09:51:05 AM
I've been looking at that box. I have, on Philips, Ingrid Haebler playing Op 1 & Op 7 on the fortepiano, and very nice version it is. But that's not to say I'm not interested in these here. Who is the keyboardist there? I know Halstead is a hornist... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Bart van Oort - Hob 08 03 March in Eb for Keyboard

I believe it is Halstead  8) I am really impressed by his technique, and the fortepiano is recorded and heard in its full glory.

I haven't heard Ingrid Haebler play these works, I shall have to keep her in mind.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 10:22:12 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 10:12:11 AM
I believe it is Halstead  8) I am really impressed by his technique, and the fortepiano is recorded and heard in its full glory.

I haven't heard Ingrid Haebler play these works, I shall have to keep her in mind.

:)

Really? A man of many talents then! Cool!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/38d792c008a013c2647a9010.jpg)

Not readily available any longer, but still out there. :)

8)



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Now playing:
Philharmonia Hungarica \ Dorati - Hob 09 16 #12 Minuet in G for Orchestra
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 11:42:30 AM
By the way, I love this quote by Scott Morrison on Amazon, from a review of a disk of JC Bach's symphonie concertante:

Quote"I was amused then to read in the scholarly notes by Prof. Ernest Warburton that J.C.'s older brother, Carl Philipp Emanuel (in whose Berlin home he lived for several years, studying with his brother), wrote during the period of these works that 'There is nothing behind my brother's present manner of composing ... It pleases and fills the ears, but the heart remains empty.' Well, he was wrong. And Mozart felt that as well. He wrote about J.C. Bach to his father, 'What is slight becomes great when it is written with a natural flow and in a light hand while at the same time being worked out thoroughly. To do this is more difficult than all the artful harmonic progressions incomprehensible to most.' Indeed these works were written for their entertainment value, and did not seem to be reaching for solemn meaningfulness. But of their kind, they are exemplary."

;)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 13, 2011, 11:51:09 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 10:22:12 AM
Really? A man of many talents then! Cool!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/38d792c008a013c2647a9010.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51utcDjkTxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Not readily available any longer, but still out there. :)

Hi Gurn & Leo - boy, we seem to be collecting the same composers, as if not already known -  ;) ;D

I have the Ingrid Haebler twofers myself (added another one above w/ her doing the Op. 13 PCs, plus the Op. 3 Sinfonias w/ Marriner) - I've had my eyes on those CPO boxes of JC Bach for a while; there are actually 3 boxes w/ 5-6 discs each (Symphonies, Symphonies Concertantes, & the Keyboard Concertos) - the pricing is pretty good but I'm always reluctant to purchase those CPO boxes because each disc is in a separate jewel box and takes up a lot of room!  I do love the label but have quite a few of the CPO offerings in my collection - might have to reconsider - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 12:54:55 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 13, 2011, 11:51:09 AM
Hi Gurn & Leo - boy, we seem to be collecting the same composers, as if not already known -  ;) ;D

I have the Ingrid Haebler twofers myself (added another one above w/ her doing the Op. 13 PCs, plus the Op. 3 Sinfonias w/ Marriner) - I've had my eyes on those CPO boxes of JC Bach for a while; there are actually 3 boxes w/ 5-6 discs each (Symphonies, Symphonies Concertantes, & the Keyboard Concertos) - the pricing is pretty good but I'm always reluctant to purchase those CPO boxes because each disc is in a separate jewel box and takes up a lot of room!  I do love the label but have quite a few of the CPO offerings in my collection - might have to reconsider - Dave  :D

Actually, there is a 4th one too, Dave, which I know only becase it is the 1 of the 4 that I have!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOperaOverturescover-1.jpg)

It is just a 3 disk set, but also very nicely put together. :)

Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 11:42:30 AM
By the way, I love this quote by Scott Morrison on Amazon, from a review of a disk of JC Bach's symphonie concertante:

;)

Yes, that is a very telling quote. Specifically, he was not so much condemning JC as he was saying that galant music is a waste of time. Of course, serious bastard that he was, he pursued the far more feeling empfindsamer style most of his life. Basically inventing it in fact. Mozart, especially the young Mozart, had little use for empfindsamer either, as noted. When he turned to the serious, I don't feel at all as though he went down that street, but rather more like Haydn he mixed emotions together in a great whirl of sensuality. CPE would have been mortified. ;D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 18 10 Concerto in C for Organ 3rd mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 01:44:58 PM
JC Bach is awesome... you guys are making me want to revisit the recording I have!  Perhaps I need more. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 01:44:58 PM
JC Bach is awesome... you guys are making me want to revisit the recording I have!  Perhaps I need more. ;D

What recording do you have?

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 18 06 Concerto in F for Organ & Violin 3rd mvmt - Presto
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mszczuj on August 13, 2011, 02:07:31 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 12:54:55 PM
Actually, there is a 4th one too, Dave, which I know only becase it is the 1 of the 4 that I have!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOperaOverturescover-1.jpg)

It is just a 3 disk set, but also very nicely put together. :)


But even with that 4th box collection is still not complete, as there are:

[asin]B000001S05[/asin]

[asin]B000001S06[/asin]


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 01:51:57 PM
What recording do you have?

8)

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Now playing:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 18 06 Concerto in F for Organ & Violin 3rd mvmt - Presto

The woodwind concertos volume 2, very good recording. :)

[asin]B000001S06[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 02:10:34 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on August 13, 2011, 02:07:31 PM
But even with that 4th box collection is still not complete, as there are:

[asin]B000001S05[/asin]

[asin]B000001S06[/asin]

Yes, you're right. JC had a very large oeuvre indeed. And much of it deserves to be better known!

8)

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Now playing:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 23b 01 Salve Regina  pt 3 - Eia ergo
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 02:13:12 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 02:08:22 PM
The woodwind concertos volume 2, very good recording. :)

[asin]B000001S06[/asin]

Indeed, it looks good. I didn't know he had a bassoon concerto to his credit. Interesting. :)

8)


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Now playing:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 23b 01 Salve Regina  pt 5 - O clemens, o pia
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 02:14:56 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 12:54:55 PM
Actually, there is a 4th one too, Dave, which I know only becase it is the 1 of the 4 that I have!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOperaOverturescover-1.jpg)

It is just a 3 disk set, but also very nicely put together. :)

Yes, that is a very telling quote. Specifically, he was not so much condemning JC as he was saying that galant music is a waste of time. Of course, serious bastard that he was, he pursued the far more feeling empfindsamer style most of his life. Basically inventing it in fact. Mozart, especially the young Mozart, had little use for empfindsamer either, as noted. When he turned to the serious, I don't feel at all as though he went down that street, but rather more like Haydn he mixed emotions together in a great whirl of sensuality. CPE would have been mortified. ;D

8)

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Now playing:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 18 10 Concerto in C for Organ 3rd mvmt - Allegro

;D Thats a wonderful description of the difference between Haydn/Mozart and CPE Bach!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 02:18:32 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4180MVMFQ2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm new to JC Bach in general, but his work continually lifts me to great heights. Right now I'm listening to this box of symphonies...in particular, those symphonies for double orchestras of Op.18. YES!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 02:14:56 PM
;D Thats a wonderful description of the difference between Haydn/Mozart and CPE Bach!

Thanks, Leo. It is something that I can't explain musically (many can, but not me  :( ) but I can feel emotionally. Still, I like CPE, such a dour man, but sure knew his way around a keyboard!   :)

8)

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Now playing:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 06 Concerto in F for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 02:22:57 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 02:19:58 PM
Thanks, Leo. It is something that I can't explain musically (many can, but not me  :( ) but I can feel emotionally. Still, I like CPE, such a dour man, but sure knew his way around a keyboard!   :)

8)

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Now playing:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 06 Concerto in F for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Me love the CPE too. I adore and I'm fascinated by his string symphonies, and his Resurrection oratorio.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 02:24:52 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 02:18:32 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4180MVMFQ2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm new to JC Bach in general, but his work continually lifts me to great heights. Right now I'm listening to this box of symphonies...in particular, those symphonies for double orchestras of Op.18. YES!

I've been looking at that box for a while. Right now, Op 18 is the only one that I do have covered, with this disk which is pretty good too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCSinfoniasOp18cover.jpg)

Also have this one, although I don't know if these fall into the actual "Symphonies" category, since things like Haydn's very early string quartets were called 'symphony' by some publishers!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJC6Sinfoniasfor6Windscover-1.jpg)

That's a nice bunch of music there, too. Seems like Sonic Dave posted that disk once too.  :)

8)


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Now playing:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 06 Concerto in F for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 13, 2011, 02:27:13 PM
I can't get enough the Galant style. I wish I could explain the attraction  :-*

All I know, is that it seems I can place a wide array of interpretations onto the music, like JC Bach's music, which is paradoxically rich and deep despite the deceptive simplicity.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 02:35:30 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 02:27:13 PM
I can't get enough the Galant style. I wish I could explain the attraction  :-*

All I know, is that it seems I can place a wide array of interpretations onto the music, like JC Bach's music, which is paradoxically rich and deep despite the deceptive simplicity.

It is very diverting, and of course, that is why it was devised. Some people never take to it, others (like us) find it highly interesting. But it is the underlying concept behind High Classic style, and it provided a great vehicle for the development of sonata form. When older styles (strict style, canonic imitation, fugue etc) were blended back into the galant sonata, then the High Classical and Classico-Romantic were the natural result. If homophony hadn't come along, with its "singing allegro" and the other trappings of galanterie, then who knows where music would have gone? But it's cool right at the base level, as you say. :)

8)


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Now playing:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger   Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 01 Concerto in C for Organ 1st mvmt - Moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mszczuj on August 13, 2011, 02:37:43 PM
I must say that when I heard symphonies of Christian my opinion was not so diffrent to that of Emmanuel. It was for me pure entertainment. But when I started to listen to Concertantes - everything changed - this was absolutely great art.

If somebody said me that opinion of Emmanuel was opinion about symphonies only and he had not know at all about Concertantes I would believe without any hesitation.

I want to really recommend this music to all. It is unbelievable.

Alas I had no time to return to Symphonies after Concertantes to give myself chance to change my mind.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 18, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on August 13, 2011, 02:37:43 PM
I must say that when I heard symphonies of Christian my opinion was not so diffrent to that of Emmanuel. It was for me pure entertainment. But when I started to listen to Concertantes - everything changed - this was absolutely great art.

If somebody said me that opinion of Emmanuel was opinion about symphonies only and he had not know at all about Concertantes I would believe without any hesitation.

I want to really recommend this music to all. It is unbelievable.

Alas I had no time to return to Symphonies after Concertantes to give myself chance to change my mind.


I am just hearing my first concertante by JC Bach tonight, the first work on Vol.5 of the CPO set led by Anthony Halstead. Indeed, this stuff is so profoundly wonderful!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 19, 2011, 09:34:38 AM
Wow! This is a great disk of Pleyel Trios...great sound! And the music is sure delight  8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C0UfwUOdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2011, 09:40:01 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 19, 2011, 09:34:38 AM
Wow! This is a great disk of Pleyel Trios...great sound! And the music is sure delight  8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C0UfwUOdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

That looks interesting! I have a modest amount of Pleyel's trios, I think it was an area that he was much stronger in that some others. Hard to read, is that "Pleyel Trio Wien"?  They are new to me, PI?  :)

8)

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Now playing:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 02 11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings 4th mvmt - Finale: Tema con variazioni
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 19, 2011, 03:48:20 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 19, 2011, 09:40:01 AM
That looks interesting! I have a modest amount of Pleyel's trios, I think it was an area that he was much stronger in that some others. Hard to read, is that "Pleyel Trio Wien"?  They are new to me, PI?  :)

8)

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Now playing:
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck - Hob 02 11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings 4th mvmt - Finale: Tema con variazioni

Yup, that says "Pleyel Trio Wien" and this is a PI recording  This disk was apparently released in 2002, and I haven't heard about it until recently. It really sounds wonderful!

You are totally right about Pleyel's talent for the trio form. These works have much to recommend! The treasures are numerous!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2011, 04:13:58 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 19, 2011, 03:48:20 PM
Yup, that says "Pleyel Trio Wien" and this is a PI recording  This disk was apparently released in 2002, and I haven't heard about it until recently. It really sounds wonderful!

You are totally right about Pleyel's talent for the trio form. These works have much to recommend! The treasures are numerous!

Well, both of the disks that I have of them are apparently unavailable now reasonably, the Trio Joachim on Dynamic and the Gamerith Consort on Divertimento (now, there's an obscure label!) along with some Haydn PT's. Which makes this one look even better to me. Me like! :)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 023 Symphony in G 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 20, 2011, 06:03:24 PM
Hi Guys - Susan & I have been away in the NC mountains (will post in the vacation thread soon!), so not much activity from me but glad to get back into the forum -  :D

Pleyel Piano Trios - just have the disc shown below (Op. 16 Nos. 1 & 2 + Op. 29).

Leo - just curious what are the Opus numbers on the the disc discussed in the above posts, please - Dave  :)

(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/2/b/e/8007144620172_300.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 06:23:47 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 20, 2011, 06:03:24 PM
Hi Guys - Susan & I have been away in the NC mountains (will post in the vacation thread soon!), so not much activity from me but glad to get back into the forum -  :D

Pleyel Piano Trios - just have the disc shown below (Op. 16 Nos. 1 & 2 + Op. 29).

Leo - just curious what are the Opus numbers on the the disc discussed in the above posts, please - Dave  :)

(http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/9/2/b/e/8007144620172_300.jpg)

Hi Dave, glad to hear you had a great vacation!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C0UfwUOdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I should've mentioned more detail about the Pleyel Trio Wien recording. I don't have opus numbers, but I have catalogue numbers for each work. The works on this disk are:

Trio for piano, violin and violoncello in D major, B 436 
Trio for piano, violin & cello in B flat major, B 440   
Sonata for piano & violin, in B flat major, B 573   
Trio for piano, violin & cello in F minor, B 442 

And here is some more info regarding the backround of this amazing:

QuoteThe recording of this CD took place in the Salvator Hall in the Barnabitengasse in Vienna's sixth district. This historic hall was chosen to facilitate as close as possible the acoustic conditions for the original instruments and to create the appropriate atmosphere.

The first prints of the notes are in the music collection of the Austrian National Library.

The pianoforte used in this recording is a reproduction of an historic, anonymous instrument from the time around 1790 made by the firm of Watzek, which is specialised in the restoration and reproduction of historic keyboard instruments, and offers these instruments for hire and cares for them during concert performances. This instrument, which was not only reproduced but also designed in 2001 according to the experience gained with the instruments of former times, is thus the result of the knowledge of the master piano builder of the period from 1750 to 1810 and has a clear, balanced, characterful and stable tone that is typical for the historic pianoforte. It was used for the first time in this recording and has since been played in many concerts.

The violin played here was built by Georg Klotz in Mittenwald in 1770, and the violoncello in Graz in 1722 by Johannes Jauck.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 06:47:34 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51U7gaYJ0IL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Listening again to Christian Cannabich (1731 - 1798) on this fine Sunday morning. I love this disk dearly. The slow movements are particularly special. All praise Naxos! What an interesting composer too!



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2011, 07:26:12 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 21, 2011, 06:47:34 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51U7gaYJ0IL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Listening again to Christian Cannabich (1731 - 1798) on this fine Sunday morning. I love this disk dearly. The slow movements are particularly special. All praise Naxos! What an interesting composer too!
The other Cannabich disc of symphonies on Naxos is quite nice as well. I assume you have it (or know about it), but on the off chance not....
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 07:29:49 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2011, 07:26:12 AM
The other Cannabich disc of symphonies on Naxos is quite nice as well. I assume you have it (or know about it), but on the off chance not....

Actually I don't have it yet, but it's on my wish list  ;D I also have my eye on the Matthias Brambert disk of Cannabich's symphonies.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 07:52:08 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GdenWm74L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517CXSjgRhL._AA300_.jpg)

Capel Bond (14 December 1730 – 14 February 1790). A new composer to me, and this disk is a great introduction from what I've heard so far.

From the wiki:

QuoteCapel Bond (14 December 1730 – 14 February 1790) was an English organist and composer.

He was born in Gloucester, the son of William Bond and the younger brother of painter and japanner Daniel Bond (1725–1803). He received his education at the Crypt school with his uncle, Rev. Daniel Bond, and at the age of twelve became apprentice to the organist of Gloucester Cathedral, Martin Smith. He left for Coventry in 1749, where he became organist of two large churches, St Michael and All Angels (later Coventry Cathedral), and, in 1752, Holy Trinity Church, Coventry.

He married Ann Spooner, the daughter of Abraham Spooner and his second wife, Anne Birch at Holy Trinity in 1768. Anne's cousin Sarah Sebright (6th Baroness Sebright and mother of Henrietta, 2nd Countess Harewood) said of Capel Bond "I had seen Miss Spooner's marriage in the news and never was more surprised how careful ought people to be that have Daughters who they admit into their families. I should have thought no man less formidable than Mr. Bond."

Such was his 'superior merit and regular attendance' that he was awarded an additional £10 per annum as a 'Compliment' from 1770. He did much to encourage musical life in the Midlands, directing the Coventry Musical Society in large works such as Handel's Messiah and Samson, organising concerts and participating in festivals in Coventry and Birmingham.

His Six Concertos in Seven Parts (London, 1766) are a collection of four concerti grossi and a concerto each for bassoon and trumpet. The collection is similar in style to works by Midlands composers Richard Mudge and John Alcock published in 1749 and 1750, though also has much in common with the concerti grossi of contemporary English composers Handel, John Stanley, Francesco Geminiani and Charles Avison's arrangements of Domenico Scarlatti. The bassoon concerto is more galant in style and may owe some influence to a lost work from 1745 by William Boyce. The compositions are considered among the best of any English provincial composer, and in their own time were occasionally heard in the Concerts of Antient Music until 1812.

His only other known compositions are Six Anthems in Score (London, 1769).

He is buried at St. Bartholomew's Church, Binley, Coventry. His tombstone reads:

H[ic] J[acet]
CAPEL BOND
40 years organist of the Churches
of St Michael and Holy Trinity in
COVENTRY
He [wa]s an eminent musician
[and] indulgent husband
[an]d steady in his friendships
[exempl]ary in the constant practice
[of his Ch]ristian and social duties
he died February 14 1790 / aged 59.


8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2011, 08:00:44 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 21, 2011, 07:52:08 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GdenWm74L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517CXSjgRhL._AA300_.jpg)

Capel Bond (14 December 1730 – 14 February 1790). A new composer to me, and this disk is a great introduction from what I've heard so far.

From the wiki:

8)

Very interesting, Leo, thanks for the information. Like yourself, this is a totally new name to me. Don't know much about British composers of that period. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11 015 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1 1st mvmt - Adagio e cantabile
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 08:49:11 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 21, 2011, 08:00:44 AM
Very interesting, Leo, thanks for the information. Like yourself, this is a totally new name to me. Don't know much about British composers of that period. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11 015 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1 1st mvmt - Adagio e cantabile

British composers of this period are largely new to me as well. I've listened to more English baroque than classical, but I love what I'm hearing from this era, c.1766.

The highlight of this disk is the Bassoon concerto (Concerto no.6 in Bb Major)! Very nice  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2011, 09:05:01 AM
[asin]B00004TD54[/asin][asin]B00008NRJ6[/asin]

I think these 2 disks are all I have to represent that country for that entire period. Sad, very sad. :(

Bassoon concerto eh? Always a favorite with me.  :)

8)
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Now playing:
Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11 022 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1 1st mvmt - Adagio (remaining 2 movements are lost)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 09:15:41 AM
Gurn, I have those disks too, and love them! I need more from England too!

I wanted to hear more bassoon, so I pulled out this recording of another new composer to me, Georg Wenzel Ritter (1748-1808), known as Mozart's "Good Wood-biter"!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Dl4-qxfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I quite enjoy the light and charming music on this disk!

Here is an excerpt from an article I am reading on Ritter, by HAROLD E. GRISWOLD.

QuoteMozart met Ritter in the Fall of 1777 during his four-month visit to
Mannheim. In December of that year he wrote to his father, Leopold:
'Herr Ritter, a fine bassoon player is off to Paris on December 12. Now
if I had been alone, this would have been an excellent opportunity for
me [to go along]. He mentioned it to me himself."

In March 1778, Mozart would follow Ritter and other Mannheim
musicians to Paris where, in his own words, 'one can make money and a
great reputation'.' A month after arriving in Paris, Mozart wrote the
Sinfonie Concertante in Eb Major (KAnh.9/297B) for Ritter and three
other Mannheim musicians: flautist, Johann Wendling (1720-1797);
oboist, Friedrich Ramm (1744-1811); and horn player Giovanni Punto
(1746-1811). However, due to difficulties with the director of the Concert
Spirituel, Monsieur Le Gros, the work was never performed.

Not only did Mozart refer to Ritter as 'a fine bassoon player', he
apparently knew Ritter well enough to share jokes and light repartee.
This relationship is reflected by Mozart in a letter to Leopold dated
18 July 1778 which documents that there was a friendly as well as
professional relationship between Mozart and Ritter. In the letter,
Mozart referred affectionately to Ritter as 'our good wood-biter' [a pun
referring to bassoon reeds] and goes on to describe a gathering he and
Ritter attended at Le Gros's house. Mozart was seated at the clavier
accompanying Anton Raff, a well-known tenor in Paris at the time.
According to Mozart,

"Ritter, our good wood-biter was sitting beside me...Well, when I had finished
playing... I dropped in to conversation with Ritter and among other things said
that I wasn to very happy here; and I added: 'The chief reason is of course, the
music. Besides I can find no soulagement here, no recreation, no pleasant and
sociable intercourse with anyone, especially with women, for most of them are
prostitutes and the few who aren't, have no savior vivre. Ritter couldn't deny
that I was right. .. This of course gave rise to much laughing and joking."

Ritter left Paris and returned to Mannheim in September of 1778.
Leopold informed Wolfgang who remained in Paris that Ritter was on
the list of Mannheim musicians who were being transferred to Munich.
Ritter would remain in the employment of the Munich Elector, Karl
Theodor, for ten years. In 1780 he petitioned the Elector for a raise and
received 900 gulden. (Mozart, after returning to Salzburg in 1778, was
given a salary of only 450 gulden as court organist for the Archbishop.)

Mozart and Ritter would meet again in 1780 in Munich where
Mozart was commissioned to write and produce the opera Idomeneo, an
opera which contained important bassoon parts for Ritter. After moving
to Vienna, Mozart in a letter to Leopold, mentions Ritter for the last
time: 'I know the bassoon player well whom they want to foist on the
Archbishop. He plays second to Ritter at the Opera.' (According to
Leopold's list of Mannheim musicians who were moved to Munich, the
second bassoonist to Ritter would have been Sebastian Holzbauer.)

In 1788 Ritter accepted an offer to join the Royal Prussian Kapelle in
Berlin for 1600 thalers,' an exceptional salary'. Upon visiting the Berlin
Kapelle in 1788, Karl von Dittersdorf (1739-1799) referred to Ritter's
playing as 'incomparable'. As late as 1808, 28 years after Ritter and
Mozart parted ways in Munich, the Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung
reported that Ritter played 'masterfully as always'. The Irish singer and
composer Michael Kelly (1762-1826) wrote that Ritter was 'the finest
bassoon player I ever heard'."


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2011, 09:25:04 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 21, 2011, 09:15:41 AM
Gurn, I have those disks too, and love them! I need more from England too!

I wanted to hear more bassoon, so I pulled out this recording of another new composer to me, Georg Wenzel Ritter (1748-1808), known as Mozart's "Good Wood-biter"!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Dl4-qxfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I quite enjoy the light and charming music on this disk!

Here is an excerpt from an article I am reading on Ritter, by HAROLD E. GRISWOLD.

Yes, a very familiar name indeed. Those 4 wind players were Mozart's inspiration in that period of his life. I was not aware that he composed also. I will definitely have that disk, as bassoon quartets are among my most favored genres. Thanks for this too. You have been quite busy lately! :)

8)


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Now playing:
Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11 025 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegro assai
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 21, 2011, 11:04:33 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 21, 2011, 06:23:47 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C0UfwUOdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/music/images/benton-rita3.jpg)

I should've mentioned more detail about the Pleyel Trio Wien recording. I don't have opus numbers, but I have catalogue numbers for each work. The works on this disk are:

Trio for piano, violin and violoncello in D major, B 436 
Trio for piano, violin & cello in B flat major, B 440   
Sonata for piano & violin, in B flat major, B 573   
Trio for piano, violin & cello in F minor, B 442 


Leo - thanks for the information above, but my CD does not list the thematic catalogue B. numbers - however, I was curious as to the person putting together the catalogue - actually a musicologist named Dr. Rita Benton (1918-1980; her picture inserted above).  Her listing of Pleyel's compositions can be reviewed HERE (http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Ignaz_Pleyel); numbers range from B. 101 to B. 827 (w/ some numbers missing but an amazing output for such a busy guy!).

Unfortunately corresponding Opus numbers are not included in that linked table and a number of the keyboard trios are in the same key, so I could match just one up, i.e. Grand Trio in D Major Op. 29 (B. 461).  Currently, I own just 5 discs of this composer's music - just so much out there that is probably wonderful and undiscovered and/or un-recorded.  I could not find the Wien recording on Amazon USA but will keep looking - there is a CPO recording w/ a favorite group of mine (Trio 1790) that I'll take a look at and compare!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 21, 2011, 05:10:17 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 21, 2011, 09:15:41 AM
I wanted to hear more bassoon, so I pulled out this recording of another new composer to me, Georg Wenzel Ritter (1748-1808), known as Mozart's "Good Wood-biter"!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Dl4-qxfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E5dutJC1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I quite enjoy the light and charming music on this disk!

Leo - I love the bassoon and will likely order that Ritter disc (have nothing at the moment by this composer), but the price is right!

Also, own the William Herschel Symphonies mentioned by Gurn - these are extremely pleasant and well performed - not a lot of depth but perfect for the period!  But for those that may be unaware, the following quote from his Wiki bio is enlightening "British astronomer, technical expert, and composer. Born in Hanover, Wilhelm first followed his father into the Military Band of Hanover, but emigrated to Britain at age 19. Herschel became most famous for the discovery of Uranus in addition to two of its major moons, Titania and Oberon. He also discovered two moons of Saturn and infrared radiation. Finally, Herschel is less known for the twenty-four symphonies that he composed.

Gurn - I may have a 'little more' British 18th century composers than you have listed - not sure if you have explored the recordings of Charles Avison (1709-1770), but I think he was probably the best of the native composers of that island between Purcell & Elgar - worth consideration; I have the two double CD sets below - not expensive and excellent - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517HpDXyaYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H1Frm1cOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RWu3%2BLkSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
 
P.S. Added another which I forgot about and superb!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2011, 10:03:28 PM
British composers of the 18th century - you are missing Boyce (who comes to mind before all these others). Then there is Thomas Arne (a nice disc on Chandos) and John Marsh (also in the Contemporary of Mozart series). Probably there are more that I am not thinking of.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 22, 2011, 09:07:02 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 21, 2011, 10:03:28 PM
British composers of the 18th century - you are missing Boyce (who comes to mind before all these others). Then there is Thomas Arne (a nice disc on Chandos) and John Marsh (also in the Contemporary of Mozart series). Probably there are more that I am not thinking of.

Neal - you've peaked my interest regarding the 'native' English 18th century composers that flourished then - found a short list HERE (http://www.rslade.co.uk/), which is duplicated below but is incomplete - added a few others that are in my collection; the names w/ an asterisk are those of which I have one or several CDs - I'm sure the list can be expanded.  As expected, I have MANY more discs of composers living in England during that century that migrated from the continent (e.g. Handel, JC Bach, Carl Abel, Muzio Clementi, and others).  Dave :)

Arne, Thomas* (1710-1778)
Avison, Charles* (1709-1770)
Babell, William* (1690-1723)
Bond, Capel (1730-1790)
Boyce, William* (1711-1779)
Croft, William* (1678-1727)
Festing, Michael (1705-1752)
Gibbs, Joseph (1698-1788)
Greene, Maurice (1696-1755)
Hebden, John (1712-1765)
Linley, Thomas (1756-1778)
Marsh, John* (1752-1828)
Purcell, Daniel (1664-1717)
Stanley, John* (1712-1786)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on August 22, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
I have heard a lot of good comments about Thomas Linley (the Younger), comparing him to Mozart, but I have yet to hear any of his music.   The direction this thread has taken is causing me to want to remedy that situation.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 22, 2011, 09:47:38 AM
Quote from: Leon on August 22, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
I have heard a lot of good comments about Thomas Linley (the Younger), comparing him to Mozart, but I have yet to hear any of his music.   The direction this thread has taken is causing me to want to remedy that situation.

:)
Hyperion have a number of discs with works by him (or with selections if they are multi-composer discs. That could be a good place to start.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 23, 2011, 01:21:15 PM
Fritz, Gaspard (1716-1783) - Swiss composer who studied in Turin (hence his first name in the Fanfare review is Gasparo but the comments did prompt me to want this recording; downloaded from Amazon so no liner notes); however, for those interested check out the two reviews reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=282831)). This composer is completely NEW to me but now listening to my MP3 download (on my iPod) over my den stereo system - beautifully integrated recording and agree w/ the two reviewers.

Flute Sonatas, Op. 2 published in the mid-18th century and pretty much of the galant style (attention LEO if you like 'flute trios') - stated from the reviews to be on 'period instruments' but cannot provide any details on the flute used, hopefully a reproduction from the period?  The flautist is Claire Genewein (below, right); born in Munich and studied in Salzburg.

Bottom line - delightful chamber music (BTW, other instruments are harpsichord & cello) and recommended to flute lovers who want to 'beam' themselves back to the mid-18th century, sitting in a musical salon and wearing a powdered wig and silk stockings!  ;) ;D  Dave


(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Dec09/Fritz_gmcd7330.jpg)  (http://lacetra.ch/fileadmin/images/genewein%20claire%20foto2.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 26, 2011, 12:01:38 PM
Leo - a couple of new arrivals for me, including the Ritter Bassoon Quartets that you recommended below - I love the bassoon and these are obviously works written by a performer on that instrument; also well recorded and just all around pleasant, as expected from that period.

Pleyel Octet C Major et al w/ Klocker and the Consortium Classicum - Klocker just excellent throughout - need to look for some more wind compositions by this composer!  Dave  :D


Quote from: Leo K on August 21, 2011, 09:15:41 AM
I wanted to hear more bassoon, so I pulled out this recording of another new composer to me, Georg Wenzel Ritter (1748-1808), known as Mozart's "Good Wood-biter"!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Dl4-qxfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-RLkMvGx/0/O/PleyelOctet.jpg)

I quite enjoy the light and charming music on this disk!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on August 26, 2011, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 26, 2011, 12:01:38 PM
Leo - a couple of new arrivals for me, including the Ritter Bassoon Quartets that you recommended below - I love the bassoon and these are obviously works written by a performer on that instrument; also well recorded and just all around pleasant, as expected from that period.

Pleyel Octet C Major et al w/ Klocker and the Consortium Classicum - Klocker just excellent throughout - need to look for some more wind compositions by this composer!  Dave  :D

I listened to the Bassoon Quartets, Op. 73 by Francois Devienne last night.  A recording on the Centaur label by an all female PI group called island (no capital letter in the name).  (The Amazon picture is too small to be worth showing.)  My copy was from a used CD store;  availability on Amazon is somewhere between none and next to none (it was released over a decade ago).  Devienne was a bassoon player and specialized in concertos and sonatas for wind instruments, apparently.  Based on what I heard, you would probably enjoy him as well.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2011, 05:29:28 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 26, 2011, 05:24:05 PM
I listened to the Bassoon Quartets, Op. 73 by Francois Devienne last night.  A recording on the Centaur label by an all female PI group called island (no capital letter in the name).  (The Amazon picture is too small to be worth showing.)  My copy was from a used CD store;  availability on Amazon is somewhere between none and next to none (it was released over a decade ago).  Devienne was a bassoon player and specialized in concertos and sonatas for wind instruments, apparently.  Based on what I heard, you would probably enjoy him as well.

I have that disk too, and quite agree with you. Nicely played. Although I am a sucker for bassoon quartets anyway... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 27, 2011, 05:57:36 AM
Hi Jeffery - actually I love Devienne's wind music and own about 8 discs, included 1 each of bassoon sonatas, quartets, & concertos; also have a great 3-CD set of the Flute Concertos (image inserted below at bottom) - that oboe disc is also wonderful which I posted in this thread almost a year ago.  For 'wind lovers', Devienne is certainly worth exploring - Dave :)

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 26, 2011, 05:24:05 PM
I listened to the Bassoon Quartets, Op. 73 by Francois Devienne last night.  A recording on the Centaur label by an all female PI group called island (no capital letter in the name).  (The Amazon picture is too small to be worth showing.)  My copy was from a used CD store;  availability on Amazon is somewhere between none and next to none (it was released over a decade ago).  Devienne was a bassoon player and specialized in concertos and sonatas for wind instruments, apparently.  Based on what I heard, you would probably enjoy him as well.

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 12, 2010, 04:50:27 PM
Devienne, Francois (1759-1803) - Oboe Sonatas w/ Glaetzner on oboe, Schornsheim on fortepiano, and Pank on cello - my 3rd disc of this Parisian composer/performer/professor - if interested, checkout my 'non-visited' thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14281.msg455988.html#msg455988) started a year ago -  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DevienneOboeSonatas/1045473193_9u6Ab-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/DevienneFluteConcertos/1059243265_EFE2C-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 27, 2011, 06:19:15 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 23, 2011, 01:21:15 PM
Fritz, Gaspard (1716-1783) - Swiss composer who studied in Turin (hence his first name in the Fanfare review is Gasparo but the comments did prompt me to want this recording; downloaded from Amazon so no liner notes); however, for those interested check out the two reviews reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=282831)). This composer is completely NEW to me but now listening to my MP3 download (on my iPod) over my den stereo system - beautifully integrated recording and agree w/ the two reviewers.

Flute Sonatas, Op. 2 published in the mid-18th century and pretty much of the galant style (attention LEO if you like 'flute trios') - stated from the reviews to be on 'period instruments' but cannot provide any details on the flute used, hopefully a reproduction from the period?  The flautist is Claire Genewein (below, right); born in Munich and studied in Salzburg.

Bottom line - delightful chamber music (BTW, other instruments are harpsichord & cello) and recommended to flute lovers who want to 'beam' themselves back to the mid-18th century, sitting in a musical salon and wearing a powdered wig and silk stockings!  ;) ;D  Dave


(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Dec09/Fritz_gmcd7330.jpg)  (http://lacetra.ch/fileadmin/images/genewein%20claire%20foto2.jpg)

Dave, thanks for the heads up on this! This composer is totally new to me  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 27, 2011, 06:20:56 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 21, 2011, 11:04:33 AM
Leo - thanks for the information above, but my CD does not list the thematic catalogue B. numbers - however, I was curious as to the person putting together the catalogue - actually a musicologist named Dr. Rita Benton (1918-1980; her picture inserted above).  Her listing of Pleyel's compositions can be reviewed HERE (http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Ignaz_Pleyel); numbers range from B. 101 to B. 827 (w/ some numbers missing but an amazing output for such a busy guy!).

Unfortunately corresponding Opus numbers are not included in that linked table and a number of the keyboard trios are in the same key, so I could match just one up, i.e. Grand Trio in D Major Op. 29 (B. 461).  Currently, I own just 5 discs of this composer's music - just so much out there that is probably wonderful and undiscovered and/or un-recorded.  I could not find the Wien recording on Amazon USA but will keep looking - there is a CPO recording w/ a favorite group of mine (Trio 1790) that I'll take a look at and compare!  Dave :)

Also, thanks for checking up on this!  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 27, 2011, 07:15:18 AM
Speaking of Devienne, I have been listening to this recently (funny how we on this board are in synch):

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/08/14/f427124128a0aca94687b010.L._AA300_.jpg)

Wonderful, wonderful bassoon concertos!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2011, 07:20:07 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 27, 2011, 07:15:18 AM
Speaking of Devienne, I have been listening to this recently (funny how we on this board are in synch):

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/08/14/f427124128a0aca94687b010.L._AA300_.jpg)

Wonderful, wonderful bassoon concertos!

Yeah, I've had that disk on my wish list for a long time. If Haydn will ever give me permission to take a little break, I will have to scoop that up. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 27, 2011, 07:59:09 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 27, 2011, 07:20:07 AM
Yeah, I've had that disk on my wish list for a long time. If Haydn will ever give me permission to take a little break, I will have to scoop that up. :)

8)

It may be awhile, he he  ;) I know the feeling, especially when I start in on haydn's quartets, sonatas or masses! Help!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2011, 08:06:27 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 27, 2011, 07:59:09 AM
It may be awhile, he he  ;) I know the feeling, especially when I start in on haydn's quartets, sonatas or masses! Help!

8)

:)  Well, you know what I mean then, and I started in on the entire oeuvre! :o  Still, it has only been 3 years, it took a lot longer than that for him to write them. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 27, 2011, 04:37:12 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 27, 2011, 07:20:07 AM
Yeah, I've had that disk on my wish list for a long time. If Haydn will ever give me permission to take a little break, I will have to scoop that up. :)

Now Gurn - you need to stop denying yourself -  ;) ;D   Devienne's bassoon works are all worth consideration for one who loves that instrument featured!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 27, 2011, 04:37:12 PM
Now Gurn - you need to stop denying yourself -  ;) ;D   Devienne's bassoon works are all worth consideration for one who loves that instrument featured!  Dave  :)

Yeah, you're right, Dave. Other than his Sinfonia concertante, it is hard to think of any work of Haydn that features the bassoon. All the divertimentos do, of course, but only in a continuo capacity. Is it possible that I can say something against the man?  :o  But I do miss my bassoon works though. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 27, 2011, 07:09:46 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 27, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
Yeah, you're right, Dave. Other than his Sinfonia concertante, it is hard to think of any work of Haydn that features the bassoon. All the divertimentos do, of course, but only in a continuo capacity. Is it possible that I can say something against the man?  :o  But I do miss my bassoon works though. :)

It just warn't in his vocabillary.  For hot bassoon licks in the symphonic repertory, you want Shostakovich, Gurn 0 : )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on August 27, 2011, 07:20:31 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 27, 2011, 07:09:46 PM
It just warn't in his vocabillary.  For hot bassoon licks in the symphonic repertory, you want Shostakovich, Gurn 0 : )

Mozart wrote a few things.  (Listening to one now:  Gran Partita K. 361 Serenade K. 375( Orpheus Chamber Orchestra) with no less than two bassoons.

And the bassoon concerto, too.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 27, 2011, 07:26:09 PM
A classic Haydn anecdote is that as he lay dying, he spoke to the effect of, "But I have only now learnt to write for the winds." That would have been partly a matter of learning from Mozart, to be sure. : )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 28, 2011, 02:40:44 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 27, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
Yeah, you're right, Dave. Other than his Sinfonia concertante, it is hard to think of any work of Haydn that features the bassoon. All the divertimentos do, of course, but only in a continuo capacity. Is it possible that I can say something against the man?  :o  But I do miss my bassoon works though. :)

8)
He had to leave something to his brother Michael. That may chase away the bassoon blues! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 28, 2011, 07:41:32 AM
Bach, JC - CPO's 5-CD box of Symphonies w/ Halstead & the Hanover Band - discussion below from a few pages back in this thread - starting w/ the first discs, i.e. Op. 3 (premiered in 1765) & Op. 6; both sets recorded in 1994.  The Op. 3 works were advertised by Bach under the heading of Overtures, of course arising out of the relationship to Italian opera overtures of the times.  The Op. 6 works have a confusing history, probably mentioned by Bach initially in 1767; later in 1770, an Amsterdam publisher named Johann Julius Hummel published a set of 6 Symphonies under the title of Op. 6 - these apparently are the works performed on this 2nd disc in the set.

All of these works are short (10 minutes or less) and in 3 movements w/ the usual slow second movement; the period instrument playing of the band is crisp and distinct; well recorded as expected by CPO - think that I'll be enjoying this box - now which other box(es) are available of this youngest son of Papa Bach? :)


Quote from: Leo K on August 13, 2011, 02:18:32 PM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-nkT2hR9/0/O/BachJCSymphonies.jpg)

I'm new to JC Bach in general, but his work continually lifts me to great heights. Right now I'm listening to this box of symphonies...in particular, those symphonies for double orchestras of Op.18. YES!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 29, 2011, 03:32:41 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 28, 2011, 07:41:32 AM
Bach, JC - CPO's 5-CD box of Symphonies w/ Halstead & the Hanover Band - discussion below from a few pages back in this thread - starting w/ the first discs, i.e. Op. 3 (premiered in 1765) & Op. 6; both sets recorded in 1994.  The Op. 3 works were advertised by Bach under the heading of Overtures, of course arising out of the relationship to Italian opera overtures of the times.  The Op. 6 works have a confusing history, probably mentioned by Bach initially in 1767; later in 1770, an Amsterdam publisher named Johann Julius Hummel published a set of 6 Symphonies under the title of Op. 6 - these apparently are the works performed on this 2nd disc in the set.

All of these works are short (10 minutes or less) and in 3 movements w/ the usual slow second movement; the period instrument playing of the band is crisp and distinct; well recorded as expected by CPO - think that I'll be enjoying this box - now which other box(es) are available of this youngest son of Papa Bach? :)

I absolutely love this JC Bach set. I'm also bowled over by the keyboard concerto box.  The recorded sound of the fortepiano is among my favorites of all my fortepiano recordings. So clear, so present, capturing the beautiful tone of this instrument 8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 29, 2011, 03:41:46 PM
I am very excited over my two latest acquisitions!

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl800/l822/l82256xr3tb.jpg)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Jan06/gerson_kunzen_CPO7770852.jpg)

I haven't heard these yet, but I've been particulary interested in hearing Kozeluch's fortepiano sonatas, and have waited awhile before finding this recording.

The CPO disk of Gerson and Kunzen symphonies is new to me, found by accident, but I can't wait to hear these composers for the first time.
8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 29, 2011, 03:53:23 PM
Oh! How can I forget this other new acquisition, that I've already started to listen to!

Stunning disk!

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Nov04/Hartmann_7770602.jpg)

Johann Ernst HARTMANN (1726-1793)
Complete Symphonies
Symphony No.1 in D major
Symphony No.2 in G major
Symphony No.3 in D major
Symphony No.4 in G major

Concerto Copenhagen
Lars Ulrik Mortensen (harpsichord and director)
Recorded Garnisons Kirke, Copenhagen, August and October 2003
CPO 777 060-2 [51.25]


Here is a review from musicweb:

QuoteViolinist and director Johann Ernst Hartmann is mainly known to posterity for his Danish Singspiel though he actually wrote far more instrumental music than songs. A disastrous fire in the Christianborg Palace in 1794 destroyed a large number of his manuscripts so it's uncertain quite how many symphonies and other concerted music he did write – only one Symphony ever made it to publication, the First, which was published by Hummel in Amsterdam in 1770.


The four symphonies are refined, elegant works with felicitous detail and written very much by a practitioner; from the inside. The deft writing for oboe in the opening movement of the First is a delight as is the delicate and refined playing of the band in the Andantino where they pay great regard to dynamic variance and colour. Control of metre is a feature of the Allegro of the three-movement G major – where drive co-exists harmoniously with lyricism. Hartmann knows just when to press his material forward and to get the two horns to ring out which they do here with fine precision and impact (interestingly he makes do with just one horn in the last two symphonies, which are altogether less ambitious works).


Those two works still have much going for them; the running bass line of the Andantino of the Third in D major and the "falling theme" of the Fourth's Allegro first movement for example. Then there's the agile flute writing of the Andante where Hartmann prefers gallantry to expressive potential. He emerges as a consummate organiser, a synthesiser of style, an occasional melodist of distinction. But these are broadly works that revel in refinement and superior taste; no obvious depths are plumbed or sought. Crafted with care Hartmann has left his own mark.


Jonathan Woolf

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2011, 04:02:01 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 29, 2011, 03:41:46 PM
I am very excited over my two latest acquisitions!

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl800/l822/l82256xr3tb.jpg)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Jan06/gerson_kunzen_CPO7770852.jpg)

I haven't heard these yet, but I've been particulary interested in hearing Kozeluch's fortepiano sonatas, and have waited awhile before finding this recording.

The CPO disk of Gerson and Kunzen symphonies is new to me, found by accident, but I can't wait to hear these composers for the first time.
8)

Leo,
At first I thought that might be the same Kozeluch as the one that I have, but I see now that it isn't, since mine is actually a different performer:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/39/52/b7f0e893e7a0a6d54fc16110.L.jpg)

This is nice music, however, and I am sure you are going to like that disk.

The other is new to me. Interested in your feedback. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2011, 04:07:03 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 29, 2011, 03:53:23 PM
Oh! How can I forget this other new acquisition, that I've already started to listen to!

Stunning disk!

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Nov04/Hartmann_7770602.jpg)

Johann Ernst HARTMANN (1726-1793)
Complete Symphonies
Symphony No.1 in D major
Symphony No.2 in G major
Symphony No.3 in D major
Symphony No.4 in G major

Concerto Copenhagen
Lars Ulrik Mortensen (harpsichord and director)
Recorded Garnisons Kirke, Copenhagen, August and October 2003
CPO 777 060-2 [51.25]


Here is a review from musicweb:

Wow, I could finally be able to say here on GMG that I was listening to some Hartmann symphonies! Everyone will be so proud of me... :D  That again seems worth taking a listen to. Ain't this a great time to be alive?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 29, 2011, 04:36:16 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 29, 2011, 04:02:01 PM
Leo,
At first I thought that might be the same Kozeluch as the one that I have, but I see now that it isn't, since mine is actually a different performer:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/39/52/b7f0e893e7a0a6d54fc16110.L.jpg)

This is nice music, however, and I am sure you are going to like that disk.

The other is new to me. Interested in your feedback. :)

8)

Gurn, I have my eye on that disk too! I will let you know about the recording I have soon  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 29, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 29, 2011, 04:07:03 PM
Wow, I could finally be able to say here on GMG that I was listening to some Hartmann symphonies! Everyone will be so proud of me... :D  That again seems worth taking a listen to. Ain't this a great time to be alive?  :)

8)

It sure is a great time to be alive. This music is so life affirming and amazing, and I'm real glad and lucky to have it so accessible...very lucky!

I've now heard this whole disk of Hartmann symphonies, and I now need help, being unpeeled from the floor, it is so good.

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2011, 04:42:06 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 29, 2011, 04:36:16 PM
Gurn, I have my eye on that disk too! I will let you know about the recording I have soon  8)

You know, Leo, I could have sworn that a couple years ago, I saw that same Kozeluch disk that you have, only it was on a different label, if you know "Discover International". Generally very inexpensive disks that give outstanding value in return. In any case, her name is very familiar to me, maybe she also played others in that range, like Mehul or Jadin. I know I have never seen your disk before, or I would have had my hands on it already... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2011, 04:43:47 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 29, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
It sure is a great time to be alive. This music is so life affirming and amazing, and I'm real glad and lucky to have it so accessible...very lucky!

I've now heard this whole disk of Hartmann symphonies, and I now need help, being unpeeled from the floor, it is so good.

;D

Yes, it is one thing to be able to read about this music in a book, and entirely different to be able to hear it. People who say that classical music isn't what it used to be don't realize what a good thing that is, actually. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 04:45:25 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 29, 2011, 04:43:47 PM
. . . People who say that classical music isn't what it used to be don't realize what a good thing that is, actually. :)

8)

(* pounds the table, musically *)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 30, 2011, 05:21:26 AM
A label calling itself Phoenix Edition has been reissuing Capriccio releases. Just picked up 3  with CPE Bach's symphonies and various vocal works, and they're impressive. Can't find nice big pictures.

Anyone else noticed this label?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 05:36:38 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on August 30, 2011, 05:21:26 AM
A label calling itself Phoenix Edition has been reissuing Capriccio releases. Just picked up 3  with CPE Bach's symphonies and various vocal works, and they're impressive. Can't find nice big pictures.

Anyone else noticed this label?
Yes - they have done some good stuff. For example, I have this one and have enjoyed it (and keeping on topic too):
[asin]B001F1YBOY[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 30, 2011, 05:58:20 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 05:36:38 AM
Yes - they have done some good stuff. For example, I have this one and have enjoyed it (and keeping on topic too):
[asin]B001F1YBOY[/asin]

Cool. That's the band did the folksong series with MacDougal and whozit.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 06:02:03 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on August 30, 2011, 05:58:20 AM
Cool. That's the band did the folksong series with MacDougal and whozit.
Yes, although those are on Brilliant I think. They also did other Haydn chamber works for Brilliant.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 06:07:29 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on August 30, 2011, 05:58:20 AM
Cool. That's the band did the folksong series with MacDougal and whozit.

They also did all the Piano Trios in the Haydn "Big Box", and the Hob 14 concertinos and such too. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 06:41:24 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 06:07:29 AM
They also did all the Piano Trios in the Haydn "Big Box", and the Hob 14 concertinos and such too. :)

8)

???  I'm pretty sure the PTs were done by Van Swieten Trio (on period instruments) in the big box, not the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (on modern instruments).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 30, 2011, 07:01:16 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 29, 2011, 03:41:46 PM
I am very excited over my two latest acquisitions!

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl800/l822/l82256xr3tb.jpg)

I haven't heard these yet, but I've been particulary interested in hearing Kozeluch's fortepiano sonatas, and have waited awhile before finding this recording.

Hi Leo - giving that JC Bach Symphony box a second listen - thoroughly enjoyable; might have to look into some of the other CPO box offerings!

Might also want to look for some of Kozeluch's solo keyboard works - that one above looks interesting, esp. being on the fortepiano.  The Kozeluch that I own are shown below - love the piano trios w/ that group, and the Concerto Koln box contains his symphonies, among many other gems!  Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KozeluchPTrios1790/1245213954_n5ZcE-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ConcertoKoln/848413757_9F5gB-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 07:09:51 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 06:41:24 AM
???  I'm pretty sure the PTs were done by Van Swieten Trio (on period instruments) in the big box, not the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (on modern instruments).

Yes, I was drunk when I wrote that. It was just the concertinos and the folk songs. My bad... :'(

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 08:16:41 AM
btw that Haydn Trio Eisenstatdt is a superbargain on amazon mp3, the entire box set of 7 "cds" is only $17.  I think I'll listen to them on nml and see if they are worth the purchase. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 30, 2011, 08:34:50 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 07:09:51 AM
Yes, I was drunk when I wrote that.

I should be shocked and dismayed by this but, um, well, you know...
;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 09:30:16 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 08:16:41 AM
btw that Haydn Trio Eisenstatdt is a superbargain on amazon mp3, the entire box set of 7 "cds" is only $17.  I think I'll listen to them on nml and see if they are worth the purchase. :)
If you are talking about the trios, I have enjoyed them quite a bit since I got them (a great deal in that Franch sale last year). I can't compare though - thery are the only ones I have.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 09:56:07 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 30, 2011, 09:30:16 AM
If you are talking about the trios, I have enjoyed them quite a bit since I got them (a great deal in that Franch sale last year). I can't compare though - thery are the only ones I have.

Cool!  I think sonic dave also likes 'em.  I'm going to give them a listen on nml soon and report back.  I've listened to Beaux Arts Trio, van Swieten Trio, some recordings of Trio 1790 and one recording of L'Archibudelli and one of Trio Goya.  I'll see if I can hopefully comment on how they compare.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 30, 2011, 02:18:46 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 09:56:07 AM
Cool!  I think sonic dave also likes 'em.  I'm going to give them a listen on nml soon and report back.  I've listened to Beaux Arts Trio, van Swieten Trio, some recordings of Trio 1790 and one recording of L'Archibudelli and one of Trio Goya.  I'll see if I can hopefully comment on how they compare.

Hi David - I have 2 sets of Haydn's Piano Trios, i.e. Van Swieten Trio w/ Bart van Oort on fortepiano & Haydn Trio Eisenstadt w/ the pianist on a Steinway; I enjoy both but have not really done any A-B type comparisons; the HTE is just a super bargain at the moment ($30 for 8 CDs on Amazon USA - just checked).  Now I owned a number of the BAT discs of these works but culled them out of my collection after obtaining the others.  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 30, 2011, 02:28:27 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 30, 2011, 07:01:16 AM
Hi Leo - giving that JC Bach Symphony box a second listen - thoroughly enjoyable; might have to look into some of the other CPO box offerings!

Might also want to look for some of Kozeluch's solo keyboard works - that one above looks interesting, esp. being on the fortepiano.  The Kozeluch that I own are shown below - love the piano trios w/ that group, and the Concerto Koln box contains his symphonies, among many other gems!  Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/KozeluchPTrios1790/1245213954_n5ZcE-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/ConcertoKoln/848413757_9F5gB-O.jpg)


Dave, I am glad the JC Bach symphonies box (from CPO) is enjoyable! I am continually amazed over the classical purity of these works, and also his truly wonderful symphony concerte box (also on CPO of course)!


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 04:06:05 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 30, 2011, 02:18:46 PM
Hi David - I have 2 sets of Haydn's Piano Trios, i.e. Van Swieten Trio w/ Bart van Oort on fortepiano & Haydn Trio Eisenstadt w/ the pianist on a Steinway; I enjoy both but have not really done any A-B type comparisons; the HTE is just a super bargain at the moment ($30 for 8 CDs on Amazon USA - just checked).  Now I owned a number of the BAT discs of these works but culled them out of my collection after obtaining the others.  Dave  :D

Good enough to cull the BAT eh?  Well... wow... can't wait to give 'em a listen. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 31, 2011, 02:24:37 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 28, 2011, 07:41:32 AM
Bach, JC - CPO's 5-CD box of Symphonies w/ Halstead & the Hanover Band - discussion below from a few pages back in this thread - starting w/ the first discs, i.e. Op. 3 (premiered in 1765) & Op. 6; both sets recorded in 1994.  The Op. 3 works were advertised by Bach under the heading of Overtures, of course arising out of the relationship to Italian opera overtures of the times.  The Op. 6 works have a confusing history, probably mentioned by Bach initially in 1767; later in 1770, an Amsterdam publisher named Johann Julius Hummel published a set of 6 Symphonies under the title of Op. 6 - these apparently are the works performed on this 2nd disc in the set.

All of these works are short (10 minutes or less) and in 3 movements w/ the usual slow second movement; the period instrument playing of the band is crisp and distinct; well recorded as expected by CPO - think that I'll be enjoying this box - now which other box(es) are available of this youngest son of Papa Bach? :)

CPO also has sets of JC's opera overtures and concertante symphonies. I've just plunked for the lot! having long enjoyed his Salve Regina et al. on CPO 999718.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 02:32:34 AM
I thought I would try to put all the JC Bach covers from CPO in one post.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K3F7D8T5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4180MVMFQ2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YEP6QYGXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wJvL92uKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Not to be confused with this one (variety of composers and different performers):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CNSQMMCML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just not sure if these two are in one of the boxes above - they don't appear to be:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203934621.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203934720.jpg)

EDIT: And these:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RFQJ51SGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp5cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp17cover.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 31, 2011, 02:59:57 AM
And the vocal record I referred to above:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RFQJ51SGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 31, 2011, 04:03:46 AM
Thanks Neal - those top 2 are of interest to me; I do have some older versions of many of the keyboard works, so will need to do some reading!  Not sure how the Symphonies Concertantes vary from the symphonies, so another area for me to investigate!

Now, I do own those 2 Woodwind Concertos in separate volumes - these are outstanding & highly recommended for those who love classical wind music!  Dave  :D

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 02:32:34 AM
I thought I would try to put all the JC Bach covers from CPO in one post.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K3F7D8T5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wJvL92uKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just not sure if these two are in one of the boxes above - they don't appear to be:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203934621.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203934720.jpg)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 04:10:37 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 31, 2011, 04:03:46 AM
Thanks Neal - those top 2 are of interest to me; I do have some older versions of many of the keyboard works, so will need to do some reading!  Not sure how the Symphonies Concertantes vary from the symphonies, so another area for me to investigate!

This is the part I always forget. I think the overtures and the symphonies concertantes have some overlap in the material (as was common in those days). But I am not clear whether one derives from the other or whehter the overlap is partial. In any case, it is 3 vs 5 discs I think, so probably worth it even if some music is re-used.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2011, 04:44:44 AM
Not to overlook these 2 fine disks, Neal;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp5cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp17cover.jpg)

although I know you were looking at boxes. Hoeren is the keyboardist for Trio 1790, BTW. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 04:49:48 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 31, 2011, 04:44:44 AM
Not to overlook these 2 fine disks, Neal;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp5cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp17cover.jpg)

although I know you were looking at boxes. Hoeren is the keyboardist for Trio 1790, BTW. :)

8)
Thanks - I added them in.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 31, 2011, 05:05:34 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 04:10:37 AM
This is the part I always forget. I think the overtures and the symphonies concertantes have some overlap in the material (as was common in those days). But I am not clear whether one derives from the other or whehter the overlap is partial. In any case, it is 3 vs 5 discs I think, so probably worth it even if some music is re-used.

This review provides some background:

QuoteJ.C. Bach – music that is charming, easy on the ear, cleverly composed and beautifully performed.
When one thinks of the so-called 'classical period' - which school pupils normally compartmentalize as from c.1750-1810 - the names of Mozart and Haydn leap to mind. After them you think of Gluck (the Reformer of German opera), then might come the somewhat maverick genius, C.P.E. Bach and only after that J.C. Bach. Yet having heard all six hours or more of this set I am again convinced that he is in many ways the archetypal composer of the classical period.

In the booklet to the sixth volume in this part of the CPO J.C. Bach series (there are 22 CDs in all of which these six address the Symphonies Concertantes) there is an extra essay by Peter Wollny entitled 'Orchestral Music by Johann Christian Bach'. In it he quotes C.P.E. in 1768 as saying "There is nothing behind my brother's present manner of composing". This reminded me of Oscar Wilde: "On the surface he seems possibly to be profound, but fortunately once underneath one soon realizes that that he is entirely shallow". That's pretty much how I perceived J.C.'s music. However Leopold Mozart, not without wisdom, reminded Wolfgang Amadeus that "What is slight becomes great when it is written with a natural flow and in a light hand". Not surprisingly Mozart went to London and studied with J.C. and was possibly present when J.C. gave the first known piano recital in London.

Each disc in this series of six has the same introductory essay by Ernest Warburton. His conscientious scholarship and research has in recent years discovered scores and parts long thought lost. His reconstructions of the scores have brought much of this music to our attention but only comparatively recently. He offers biographical notes on J.C. and then on the Symophonia Concertante as a form. Each work is described and sometimes lightly analysed. Only in the sixth booklet, as indicated, does Peter Wollny add an analytical essay.

Anthony Halstead who has obviously devoted so much loving care on the conducting also makes a literary contribution. A 22 disc assignment to record the music of just one composer - and not a great one - takes a huge commitment and monopolises a massive chunk of your life. Sadly Ernst Warburton died just a short time before the recording project was completed in 2001, it having started six years before that.

Now this collection of six discs of the Symphonies Concertantes have been gathered together having previously been released separately. They allow us a real chance to delve into the mind of this still little-known composer.

The worry I had when confronted with this set was 'Would all twenty works be exactly the same, in form, style, performance and texture?'. Well that fear proved unfounded almost from the start. As you can see from the above listings each CD is slightly different in type and content. For example, several 'Symphonies' are in three movements, fast(ish)-slow-fast (probably a Rondo). However, on disc 4, (the tracks are carelessly printed in the booklet), the first Symphonie in C has an opening elegant Andante in the French style (gallante) followed by a lively Allegro and that's it. The following Eb work is similar in form whilst the later G major piece is in three movements. That particular disc features variation in texture. Two violins and cello - the most common instrumental grouping used by J.C. - are featured in the first. In the second the flute is added and in the Eb we have the flute with an oboe and bassoon. In between comes a Violin Concerto, the complex reconstruction of which, and its place in the canon, is explained by Ernst Warburton in the notes as are the other single concerto works listed.

I have already alluded to the French late Baroque style (Rameau, Couperin) which Bach sometimes employs but he is also prone to adopting the Italian style with its emphasis on melody and elegance and charm. Nowhere is this more noticeable than in the A major work for two violins and cello on disc 3. This was a popular piece at the time and was published in 1775; only two others were published in Bach's lifetime. This is a two movement work definitely written with the French taste in mind. Warburton describes it as having a "bluffer manner" than others and being "highly decorated" by which he means ornamented. The Italian style is exemplified by the D major Concertante on Volume 2, with its emphasis on virtuosity and on ritornello material, as happens in Vivaldi. Not only that, but the work is from a single manuscript copy found in Mantua.

The sixth disc has the last two 'Symphonies Concertantes' and has, as an bonus, a curious Keyboard concerto and a brief work simply called a 'Cadenza'. The concerto is a different version of a published Concerto in G recorded a few years before (CPO 999 600-2) and its complex history is worth a little study. It is played on a sweet-toned fortepiano by Anthony Halsead himself who also improvises the cadenzas. It sounds more like chamber music with its accompaniment of just two violins and a cello. The final track, the 'Cadenza' for Oboe, Viola and Violoncello is attributed to J.C. and probably should be attached to the C major Concertante (C45). It is just a two and a half minutes long.

I can think of no better performers than 'The Hanover Band' – 26-strong – to present this music. They are all soloists and each appears to relish the chance to play solo whenever called upon. There is a superb sense of balance throughout between each of the original instruments even the flute which although not even-toned throughout its range is most sensitively handled by both Liza Beznosiuk and Brinley Yare.

I must end by adding that although I applaud the project and indeed the whole idea of the 22 discs of J.C. Bach, I do wonder how many times I will actually play it. It is charming and easy on the ear, cleverly composed and beautifully performed but it may well spend much of its time on the shelf not only at my home but at most Universities and Colleges. For this reason I am going to suggest that if you decide to hunt out single volumes only then you could do no worse than purchase Volume 2 and/or Volume 3. These have contrast and quality and represent, I feel, the heart of the Concertantes and of J.C. Bach himself.

-- Gary Higginson, MusicWeb International
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 05:29:01 AM
I see now that it is the symphonies and operas that overlap.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2011, 05:29:09 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 04:49:48 AM
Thanks - I added them in.

That bilious green Op 5 is one of my favorite CD covers. Don't know why, just is. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 31, 2011, 07:41:33 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on August 31, 2011, 05:05:34 AM
This review provides some background:

Thanks for providing that review, I haven't run across that yet :)


By the way, you guys got me returning to JC Bach this morning on a Long awaited day off from two jobs :)

I am listening to his fabulous bassoon concerto (in Eb) from the CPO series of JC Bach's woodwind concertos :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: PaulSC on August 31, 2011, 07:50:39 AM
Quoteif you decide to hunt out single volumes only then you could do no worse than purchase Volume 2 and/or Volume 3

LOL at this bit near the end of Gary Higginson's review...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on August 31, 2011, 08:32:54 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on August 31, 2011, 07:50:39 AM
LOL at this bit near the end of Gary Higginson's review...

Just noticed that! He fell into the crack between could do no better and could do worse.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 31, 2011, 10:55:53 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 29, 2011, 03:41:46 PM
I am very excited over my two latest acquisitions!



(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Jan06/gerson_kunzen_CPO7770852.jpg)

I haven't heard these yet, but I've been particulary interested in hearing Kozeluch's fortepiano sonatas, and have waited awhile before finding this recording.

The CPO disk of Gerson and Kunzen symphonies is new to me, found by accident, but I can't wait to hear these composers for the first time.
8)


This is quite a disk. The composer Friedrich Ludwig Aemilius Kunzen (1761-1817) has a real interesting G Minor symphony, that doesn't sound anything like Mozart's (whom he admired) late G minor symphony. If there is a similarity, it is the subtle musical arguments in each, rather quiet with sudden eruptions here and there, but otherwise Kunzel is very much his own man. Fascinating unknown figure. Here is some wiki information:

Quote(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Kunzen.gif/405px-Kunzen.gif)

Friedrich Ludwig Æmilius Kunzen (September 24, 1761 – January 28, 1817) was a German composer and conductor who lived and worked for much of his life in Denmark.
He was born in Lübeck, where his father, Adolph Carl Kunzen, was an organist and his grandfather, Johann Paul Kunzen (1696-1757), had composed for the Hamburg Opera in the 1720s. In 1781 he began studying law in Kiel, but his true love was music, and in 1784, encouraged by the composer Johann Abraham Peter Schulz and the publisher Carl Friedrich Cramer (1752-1807), both of whom would be important throughout his life, he moved to Copenhagen to pursue a musical career.
He performed as a pianist at court and in clubs, and in the next few years had successes with a memorial cantata for Count Otto Thott and music for the marriage of Crown Princess Louise Auguste to Frederik Christian II, Duke of Augustenborg, as well as theatre music.
In 1788 he met the young author Jens Baggesen, and the two collaborated on the opera Holger Danske, which premiered the following year, causing the "Holger Feud," as a result of which Kunzen temporarily left the country.
For the next two years he lived in Berlin; then from 1792 to 1794 he worked as musical director of the new Frankfurter National-Theater, where he put on Mozart's Don Giovanni and The Magic Flute.
During his stay in Frankfurt he married one of the foremost singers of the era, Johanna Margaretha Antonetta Zuccarini (1766-1842). In 1794 he and his wife moved to Prague, where he worked as an opera director; the following year he was offered the position of musical director of the Royal Orchestra in Copenhagen; he immediately accepted and returned with his wife to his beloved city in 1795.
His obligations were numerous, his salary poor, and his enthusiasm about Mozart was met with indigenous scepticism. As a consequence, Cosi fan tutte failed spectacularly in 1798."[1] However, he had successes with Don Giovanni (1807) and Die Entführung aus dem Serail (1813).
Besides occasional compositions for the court and city, he composed the oratorio Opstandelsen (The Resurrection, 1796), the grand opera Erik Ejegod (1798), and various hymns and Singspiele.
In 1809 he was appointed professor, and in 1811 he was honoured as a Knight of the Order of the Dannebrog and appointed a member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Music.
On January 28, 1817, he suffered a stroke and died after an argument with Jens Baggesen over a plagiarism controversy concerning the opera Trylleharpen (The Magic Harp). This opera (1806) had been performed in Vienna and Hamburg in German as Ossians Harfe, but without success.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Grazioso on August 31, 2011, 10:58:50 AM
I'll add my voice to the chorus singing old JC's praises. His music may not plumb great depths, but it's genial and tuneful, and Halstead and Co. (and the CPO engineers) do it great justice. I have their box sets of the symphonies, symphonies concertantes, and keyboard concerti, and all are most pleasant.



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 31, 2011, 05:25:11 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 31, 2011, 04:44:44 AM
Not to overlook these 2 fine disks, Neal;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp5cover-1.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachJCYates/776859910_4Fn7N-O.jpg)

although I know you were looking at boxes. Hoeren is the keyboardist for Trio 1790, BTW. :)

Gurn - I have Sophie Yates on these Op. 5 Sonstas - can comment on a comparison, but I think I like Sophie's cover better -  ;) ;D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2011, 05:44:39 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 31, 2011, 05:25:11 PM
Gurn - I have Sophie Yates on these Op. 5 Sonstas - can comment on a comparison, but I think I like Sophie's cover better -  ;) ;D  Dave

Ha! I think not, my friend! Well, I really do think that the fortepiano is the correct instrument for these works, I read (in Grove's?? Maybe Newman's Sonatas in the Classic Period) that he wrote the first actual fortepiano sonatas in England. And that cover! ::)  I think I have 2 or 3 different disks with that same cover It is probably the only extant painting of him, I would guess).   :P :P :P   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 01, 2011, 11:08:28 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 31, 2011, 05:44:39 PM
Ha! I think not, my friend! Well, I really do think that the fortepiano is the correct instrument for these works, I read (in Grove's?? Maybe Newman's Sonatas in the Classic Period) that he wrote the first actual fortepiano sonatas in England. And that cover! ::)  I think I have 2 or 3 different disks with that same cover It is probably the only extant painting of him, I would guess).   :P :P :P   :D

Hey Gurn - yep, if you use Google Images that portrait appears dozens of times w/ him looking in one or the other direction - but it is a fine one being painted by Thomas Gainsborough in 1776, so worth using over again -  :D

Sophie Yates plays on an harpsichord which is not described in the booklet, but has a lighter sound which is probably appropriate for these earlier (i.e. 1766) more transitional keyboard works - apparently the title page of the manuscript indicated the works could be played on Fortepiano or harpsichord - I guess in the middle of that century, either would have been appropriate - although I'd love to hear that fortepiano version, too (listening to Yates at the moment to refresh my memory) - for those who may be interested, there is a good review by Jerry Dubins Reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=250818) - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 03, 2011, 08:03:18 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 19, 2011, 04:18:06 AM
:D  Excellent, Fred will be delighted!

By sheer coincidence I was listening to Rolla on my way to work this morning. When it first popped up I didn't recognize it and just sat back enjoying, although finally I had to check and see. It was the Sinfonia in Bb for Strings by the Milan Chamber Orchestra. From this disk;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b9MIr8i2L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Amazon doesn't have the disk any longer, but the MP3's are inexpensive anyway, and well worth it. 

In any case, I am delighted that you are pleased with it. Pleasant surprises are the best ones. :D

8)


I saw this in my stack this morning and decided it was time to take a first listen.

I am starting with the Sinfonia in D Major (BI.533). This is a very delightful disk! Rolla is wonderful!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 05, 2011, 09:19:38 AM
Below is a quote from Gabriel back in the spring of 2009 (there was an excellent follow-up discussion by Gurn at the time referring to the French composer Hyacinthe Jadin (1776-1800) who died tragically young from tuberculosis; he was a precocious musician and composer - more information HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyacinthe_Jadin), including a listing of his impressive compositions.

Well, I acquired my first recording (actually an MP3 download) of Jadin - String Quartets w/ Franz Joseph SQ - this received an excellent review in the most recent issue of Fanfare which I've attached; Gurn discussed the keyboard works w/ several now available, including performances on the fortepiano.  After listening to the quality of the SQs, I plan to explore this composer more, so please for those w/ some of his recordings, post comments & recommendations; and perhaps Gurn can help to bring us up to date - Jadin kind of was buried in this thread a while back (in fact I've not seen Gabriel around lately?) - Dave :)

(http://www.renaud-bray.com/ImagesEditeurs/PG/1182/1182647-gf.jpg)  (http://law-guy.com/classics/blog/wp-content/uploads/jadin2.jpg)

Quote from: Gabriel on March 24, 2009, 02:31:29 PM
One of the most delightful CD series available is The Romantic Piano Concerto in Hyperion. Some days ago I was thinking if it would be possible to develop such an idea concerning the classical era. It is obvious that Mozart's and Beethoven's contributions are elementary to understand this form during this period, but those magnificent works do not represent the whole of it, so I thought it would be interesting to mention classical piano concertos written by other composers.

I would like to mention the piano concertos composed by Hyacinthe Jadin (1776-1800), a French composer who died unfortunately too young. Jadin is a composer whose music sounds incredibly Mozartian: beautiful ideas, excellent developments and an unexplainable nostalgic feeling even in major mode works. I have listened to two of his three piano concertos, and both of them would surely deserve a better consideration within this repertoire. Alas, the name of Jadin is seldom known, even among music lovers, and his works are even less often played.

The second piano concerto, in D minor, was composed in 1796; it is a very tragical work, with a first movement whose main motive sounds as a cry of inner despair. The luminous, peaceful second subject provides a fascinating contrast. The piano writing is quite particular; in parts, it doesn't remember me of any other composer of this era (for instance, towards the end of the movement there is a very original sort of bird song). The textures are as pure as they can be, which, curiously, reinforces the sadness of the music.

The third piano concerto, in A major, composed in 1798, is quite a different work. A bold one. Jadin decided to write a concerto in two movements instead of the usual three, and the first one is admirable in its idea: after an orchestral exposition of about three minutes, the piano enters, not for reexposing the subjects as it should normally be, but for "singing" a rather short recitative whose delicacy is worthy of the greatest admiration. When the piano exposes the subjects after the recitative, the effect is impressive: they sound as if they had never been played, with a freshness and a beautiful simplicity rarely achieved even during classicism. The second movement, on the other hand, presents very different virtues: in a very disguised way, Jadin presents music of popular inspiration.

I know just one recording of these works, in the label Forlane, conducted by Gérard Streletski and played by Wen-Ying Tseng in a modern piano. Even if it is not an ideal recording, it is a very enjoyable one (I'm sure it would work better with a fortepiano, but to have at least one recording is good news).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 05, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 05, 2011, 09:19:38 AM
Below is a quote from Gabriel back in the spring of 2009 (there was an excellent follow-up discussion by Gurn at the time referring to the French composer Hyacinthe Jadin (1776-1800) who died tragically young from tuberculosis; he was a precocious musician and composer - more information HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyacinthe_Jadin), including a listing of his impressive compositions.

Well, I acquired my first recording (actually an MP3 download) of Jadin - String Quartets w/ Franz Joseph SQ - this received an excellent review in the most recent issue of Fanfare which I've attached; Gurn discussed the keyboard works w/ several now available, including performances on the fortepiano.  After listening to the quality of the SQs, I plan to explore this composer more, so please for those w/ some of his recordings, post comments & recommendations; and perhaps Gurn can help to bring us up to date - Jadin kind of was buried in this thread a while back (in fact I've not seen Gabriel around lately?) - Dave :)

(http://www.renaud-bray.com/ImagesEditeurs/PG/1182/1182647-gf.jpg)  (http://law-guy.com/classics/blog/wp-content/uploads/jadin2.jpg)

(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/ae/b0/0016b0ae_medium.jpeg)

Dave, this is the one disk of Jadin I own, and it is a fantastic recording of these profoundly beautiful trios. I am eager to hear string quartets and fortepiano sonatas from Jadin!

Other the the disk above, I have a Jadin piano sonata on a compilation that Gurn suggested for me, and that's where I first heard this composer. Great, great music!

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 08, 2011, 04:14:03 AM
(http://www.technodisco.net/img/tracks/f/franz-danzi/2750390-franz-danzi-kammermusik-mit-flte-flute-chamber-music.jpg)

Shallow and lovely, just like me!

Except for the part about me. I'm deep and ugly.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 09, 2011, 04:02:07 AM
Sigh. The Jadin 4s are ordered. And the Hartmann symphonies.

If you guys keep this up, I'll never get to retire.

On the other hand, if I do get to retire, I'll do so surrounded by so much musical pleasure I'll think I've died and gone to heaven!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 09, 2011, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 05, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/ae/b0/0016b0ae_medium.jpeg)

Dave, this is the one disk of Jadin I own, and it is a fantastic recording of these profoundly beautiful trios. I am eager to hear string quartets and fortepiano sonatas from Jadin!

Other the the disk above, I have a Jadin piano sonata on a compilation that Gurn suggested for me, and that's where I first heard this composer. Great, great music!

Hi Leo - well I have that Trios disc in the mail (actually from BRO for $6 - surprised they had any Jadin!) - now I'm really curious about obtaining some of the keyboard works, esp. on the fortepiano.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2011, 01:23:31 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 05, 2011, 09:19:38 AM
Below is a quote from Gabriel back in the spring of 2009 (there was an excellent follow-up discussion by Gurn at the time referring to the French composer Hyacinthe Jadin (1776-1800) who died tragically young from tuberculosis; he was a precocious musician and composer - more information HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyacinthe_Jadin), including a listing of his impressive compositions.

Well, I acquired my first recording (actually an MP3 download) of Jadin - String Quartets w/ Franz Joseph SQ - this received an excellent review in the most recent issue of Fanfare which I've attached; Gurn discussed the keyboard works w/ several now available, including performances on the fortepiano.  After listening to the quality of the SQs, I plan to explore this composer more, so please for those w/ some of his recordings, post comments & recommendations; and perhaps Gurn can help to bring us up to date - Jadin kind of was buried in this thread a while back (in fact I've not seen Gabriel around lately?) - Dave :)

(http://www.renaud-bray.com/ImagesEditeurs/PG/1182/1182647-gf.jpg)  (http://law-guy.com/classics/blog/wp-content/uploads/jadin2.jpg)

Ah, Jadin!  Nice to come home to a discussion of his music. Very sad that he died so young (24 yrs), I, along with many others (especially his contemporaries) think he would have been one of the greats of his time. Even his small, remaining oeuvre contains no clinkers. I started out with all of his piano sonatas that I could find, and then moved ahead to the trios that Leo has kindly illustrated for us.

Quote from: Leo K on September 05, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/ae/b0/0016b0ae_medium.jpeg)

But what has me intrigued is the string quartet disk. I see it is on Atma, thus should be available. If we had this here before, I clearly overlooked it, since I would have snapped it up. Just as an FYI, Hyacinthe (isn't that a special name? :) ) had a brother who was rather talented at composition also. Name was Louis Emanuel. I have one disk with a combination of sonatas for Fortepiano & Oboe and a Keyboard Sonata 4-hands. Once I find the disk, I will picture it here. Life is full of little challenges... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 09, 2011, 02:06:31 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 09, 2011, 01:23:31 PM
Ah, Jadin!  Nice to come home to a discussion of his music. Very sad that he died so young (24 yrs), I, along with many others (especially his contemporaries) think he would have been one of the greats of his time. Even his small, remaining oeuvre contains no clinkers. I started out with all of his piano sonatas that I could find, and then moved ahead to the trios that Leo has kindly illustrated for us.

But what has me intrigued is the string quartet disk. I see it is on Atma, thus should be available. If we had this here before, I clearly overlooked it, since I would have snapped it up. Just as an FYI, Hyacinthe (isn't that a special name? :) ) had a brother who was rather talented at composition also. Name was Louis Emanuel. I have one disk with a combination of sonatas for Fortepiano & Oboe and a Keyboard Sonata 4-hands. Once I find the disk, I will picture it here. Life is full of little challenges... :D


Hi Gurn - looking forward to your comments on Jadin's Keyboard Works - sound quite special; also impressed w/ his output despite his brief existence on the planet!

Of course, the name Hyacinthe comes from the flower Hyacinth, as shown below in purple; a rare boy's name (and also the same spelling for a girl's name) - a few facts HERE (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Hyacinthe) - :)

(http://www.saragilbaneinteriors.com/travelfordesign/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/blue_hyacinth.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2011, 02:21:22 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 09, 2011, 02:06:31 PM
Hi Gurn - looking forward to your comments on Jadin's Keyboard Works - sound quite special; also impressed w/ his output despite his brief existence on the planet!

Of course, the name Hyacinthe comes from the flower Hyacinth, as shown below in purple; a rare boy's name (and also the same spelling for a girl's name) - a few facts HERE (http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Hyacinthe) - :)

(http://www.saragilbaneinteriors.com/travelfordesign/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/blue_hyacinth.jpg)

Dave,
Well, this is the wholly Jadin disk I have;

[asin]B000E3J3PQ[/asin]

the re-release is readily available at a very modest price, and well worth more.

My introduction came on this disk;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Frenchpianofortesmallcover.jpg)

which I think is the one that Leo was talking about. I wasn't looking for Jadin, per se, when I purchased this disk from BRO 5 years ago, I was merely intrigued by the title. The disk itself has gone from $3 to $50 in value the last time I checked. It's a peach, although I have issues with $50 disks...

The sonatas are very much of their time (1790's), nothing Beethovenian about them, just lovely long lyrical lines and solid structure rather than the new fad of fantasia that was making the rounds about that time. I recommend this (Harmonia Mundi) disk, it is a win:win given the price and quality. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 11, 2011, 11:23:52 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 09, 2011, 02:21:22 PM
My introduction came on this disk;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Frenchpianofortesmallcover.jpg)

which I think is the one that Leo was talking about. I wasn't looking for Jadin, per se, when I purchased this disk from BRO 5 years ago, I was merely intrigued by the title. The disk itself has gone from $3 to $50 in value the last time I checked. It's a peach, although I have issues with $50 disks...

The sonatas are very much of their time (1790's), nothing Beethovenian about them, just lovely long lyrical lines and solid structure rather than the new fad of fantasia that was making the rounds about that time. I recommend this (Harmonia Mundi) disk, it is a win:win given the price and quality. :)

8)

Yup! Thats the disk I was referring to. A Wonderful collection!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 11, 2011, 11:34:03 AM

I am very excited as my fiancee bought me this book for my birthday!  :o :P ;D

(http://salonsanctuaryconcerts.org/images/239_music-in-european-capitals-galant-style-1720-1780-daniel-heartz-hardcover-cover-art.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 11:37:15 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 11, 2011, 11:34:03 AM
I am very excited as my fiancee bought me this book for my birthday!  :o :P ;D

(http://salonsanctuaryconcerts.org/images/239_music-in-european-capitals-galant-style-1720-1780-daniel-heartz-hardcover-cover-art.jpg)

Excellent! I like Heartz' style, very readable. That is, I think, book 2 of a trilogy. Book 1 I missed and is now way out of sight pricewise, and book 3 is on my list for next month. Let us know what you think, Leo. We are always looking for a new book. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 11, 2011, 11:39:57 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 11, 2011, 11:37:15 AM
Excellent! I like Heartz' style, very readable. That is, I think, book 2 of a trilogy. Book 1 I missed and is now way out of sight pricewise, and book 3 is on my list for next month. Let us know what you think, Leo. We are always looking for a new book. :)

8)

I definitely will Gurn! Upon reading the author's introduction I feel I am in for a very good journey indeed!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 11:44:08 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 11, 2011, 11:39:57 AM
I definitely will Gurn! Upon reading the author's introduction I feel I am in for a very good journey indeed!

8)

Cool! I also have his book on Mozart's Operas which I think that you in particular would enjoy. I'll have to give more serious consideration to the galant book though. Damn, it's expensive to build and maintain a library these days!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 11, 2011, 11:51:51 AM
Gurn, it is VERY expensive indeed!  :o But I'm glad to hear recommendations for my wish list, so thanks for the heads up on Heartz's book on Mozart's operas  :)  I'm also looking longingly at Heartz's Vol.3 book you mentioned!


I'm getting in a Galant mood again, and decided to listen to Johann Gottlieb Graun (27 October 1703 – 28 October 1771) this morning:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a3/a5/a501224b9da0f36fc866b010.L._AA300_.jpg)
(Sorry to reference yet another out of print recording!)

The works on this disk are:

1. Concerto for violin & viola da gamba (or viola da braccio) in C minor
4. Trio for 2 violas da gambe & continuo in G major
7. Concerto for viola da gamba in A minor
10.Trio Sonata for violin, viola da gamba, pardessus de viol & bass cembalo in A major 

I do love his music whenever I turn to it. Funny, on Graun's Wiki page I read that Charles Burney wrote: "In his concertos and church music... the length of each movement is more immoderate than Christian patience can endure..."

But I LOVE this about Graun's work!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 11, 2011, 11:51:51 AM
Gurn, it is VERY expensive indeed!  :o But I'm glad to hear recommendations for my wish list, so thanks for the heads up on Heartz's book on Mozart's operas  :)  I'm also looking longingly at Heartz's Vol.3 book you mentioned!


I'm getting in a Galant mood again, and decided to listen to Johann Gottlieb Graun (27 October 1703 – 28 October 1771) this morning:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a3/a5/a501224b9da0f36fc866b010.L._AA300_.jpg)
(Sorry to reference yet another out of print recording!)

The works on this disk are:

1. Concerto for violin & viola da gamba (or viola da braccio) in C minor
4. Trio for 2 violas da gambe & continuo in G major
7. Concerto for viola da gamba in A minor
10.Trio Sonata for violin, viola da gamba, pardessus de viol & bass cembalo in A major 

I do love his music whenever I turn to it. Funny, on Graun's Wiki page I read that Charles Burney wrote: "In his concertos and church music... the length of each movement is more immoderate than Christian patience can endure..."

But I LOVE this about Graun's work!

8)

:D  Burney can be very amusing. Although short movements were clearly the norm at that time, so maybe he just wasn't much of an adapter. Wonder what he would have thought of Eroica and later The Great C Major!   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 11, 2011, 12:04:42 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 11, 2011, 11:59:24 AM
:D  Burney can be very amusing. Although short movements were clearly the norm at that time, so maybe he just wasn't much of an adapter. Wonder what he would have thought of Eroica and later The Great C Major!   :D

8)

I still want to read Burney, at least parts of his books when I get extra time. I am very much looking forward to the day I can retire so I can get my time back! It will be a long wait though!  :P Still, I still find time to listen to the Eroica and Schubert!  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 12:19:07 PM
Quote from: Leo K on September 11, 2011, 12:04:42 PM
I still want to read Burney, at least parts of his books when I get extra time. I am very much looking forward to the day I can retire so I can get my time back! It will be a long wait though!  :P Still, I still find time to listen to the Eroica and Schubert!  ;D

Well, amigo, I know what you mean, but I also know that you must and will find a way to satisfy that longing other than wishing to be older!! I will be 60 very soon, so ready for retirement in any case, but also glad I didn't miss anything to get here. :)  Did you download that Burney book from Gutenberg Project when the link was here? That's how I've been able to browse it. Free is great!   ;)

Here's a link if you want it:  http://www.archive.org/details/generalhistoryof005344mbp  on the left side of the page is a list of available formats. As always, I chose PDF... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 11, 2011, 12:55:59 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 11, 2011, 12:19:07 PM
Well, amigo, I know what you mean, but I also know that you must and will find a way to satisfy that longing other than wishing to be older!! I will be 60 very soon, so ready for retirement in any case, but also glad I didn't miss anything to get here. :)  Did you download that Burney book from Gutenberg Project when the link was here? That's how I've been able to browse it. Free is great!   ;)

Here's a link if you want it:  http://www.archive.org/details/generalhistoryof005344mbp  on the left side of the page is a list of available formats. As always, I chose PDF... :)

8)

I sure did get the Burney book, and I'm very glad it was free :) You're right, I will find a way to find the time!  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 01:00:23 PM
Quote from: Leo K on September 11, 2011, 12:55:59 PM
I sure did get the Burney book, and I'm very glad it was free :) You're right, I will find a way to find the time!  8)

OTOH, it is quoted so extensively in every music history book about the era, that I virtually have read it all anyway... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 11, 2011, 01:07:34 PM
By the way, I'm still listening to Johann Graun, and this disk includes his brother Carl Heinrich Graun and the mysterious "? Graun"  :)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lu5X0L3ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JL8gY92KL._SS400_.jpg)

Here is a post from SonicMan from some months ago with Graun recordings waiting on my wish list!

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2011, 02:05:54 PM
Johann Graun (1703-1771) - love this period of music - below are the 3 discs that I own currently - if interested try the CPO disc on concertos and then decide -


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61DPC55CASL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61kHE1QWjaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-R2DlUQOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 01:29:15 PM
Ha!   ? Graun is my favorite of the bunch. He is right there with ? Sammartini at the top of the ladder in the development of the Classical Style! And I was just reading earlier about ? Haydn, who baffled the English publishers for years, it seems... :D

That is a good looking group of disks there though. I sometimes wish I wasn't so obsessive so I could spread out a bit more. Although now that I've started on J. Haydn, I will have a ways to go before my OCD is sated. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 11, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 11, 2011, 01:29:15 PM
Ha!   ? Graun is my favorite of the bunch. He is right there with ? Sammartini at the top of the ladder in the development of the Classical Style! And I was just reading earlier about ? Haydn, who baffled the English publishers for years, it seems... :D

Ha ha! Indeed  ;D

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 11, 2011, 01:29:15 PM
That is a good looking group of disks there though. I sometimes wish I wasn't so obsessive so I could spread out a bit more. Although now that I've started on J. Haydn, I will have a ways to go before my OCD is sated. :)

I totally hear ya there Gurn! When I return to Mozart, for instance, in revisiting his late operas and Requiem, it's hard to get away, like an OCD tractor beam!  ;D



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 02:04:29 PM
Quote from: Leo K on September 11, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
Ha ha! Indeed  ;D

I totally hear ya there Gurn! When I return to Mozart, for instance, in revisiting his late operas and Requiem, it's hard to get away, like an OCD tractor beam!  ;D

Yeah, well Figaro can always pull me away, even from Haydn! Although I listened to Orlando Paladino last week and it was pretty fine too. I would recommend this one just for your amusement;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Orlando01.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2011, 02:25:12 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 11, 2011, 11:37:15 AM
Excellent! I like Heartz' style, very readable. That is, I think, book 2 of a trilogy. Book 1 I missed and is now way out of sight pricewise . . . .

There must be inter-library loan, yes?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 02:37:04 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 11, 2011, 02:25:12 PM
There must be inter-library loan, yes?

True, although it requires a library if one wishes to inter into a loan program... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2011, 02:38:52 PM
I thought there were libraries in Texas . . . sorry to be disabused of this fantasy! ; )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 02:40:55 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 11, 2011, 02:38:52 PM
I thought there were libraries in Texas . . . sorry to be disabused of this fantasy! ; )

There is one at university, but as a non-student I'm not eligible. Our population of 650 seemed to discourage Mr. Carnegie on his last pass through.... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on September 11, 2011, 04:40:32 PM
Tell them you're faculty: The Mrs Edna H. Blortstratton Professor of Gurnithology . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2011, 04:47:05 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 11, 2011, 04:40:32 PM
Tell them you're faculty: The Mrs Edna H. Blortstratton Professor of Gurnithology . . . .

:D  How did you know that I hold the Blortstratton Chair?!? Dame Edna elevated me years ago... many dames did, of course.  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 12, 2011, 02:26:56 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 11, 2011, 04:47:05 PM
:D  How did you know that I hold the Blortstratton Chair?!? Dame Edna elevated me years ago... many dames did, of course.  :D
8)

Gurn of Blortstratton... sounds a character in a Gothic novel.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 14, 2011, 07:33:29 AM
I just got some music of Leopold Hofman (1738-93) on Naxos and I'm excited :)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-J7EzFfpnJOE/Tm95LwXGL2I/AAAAAAAANJk/t9dCsb37siM/s1600/hofmmann+portada.PNG)

As some here know, Mozart was Hofman's assistant at St. Stephens.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2011, 05:16:09 PM
As usual, expanding my Haydn selection. Right now, in addition to filling gaps in places where I had just downloads and the disks were merited, I am also looking for early solo keyboard and keyboard trio disks. The keyboard trios are especially difficult, since if you take away the Trio 1790 disks, and the Van Sweiten Trio set (which uses an inappropriate fortepiano instead of a harpsichord (although lovely) anyway), there are really very very few recordings available, while the post 1790 works are thicker than fleas on a outdoor dog. But, as few selections out there today;

This one
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0d/32/ef5851c88da044a313d63210.L.jpg)

which I didn't even know existed! Apparently, the AAM began to record Volume 11 and got the first disk completed. It was released by the BBC, not L'Oiseau Lyre. I was very pleased to run across this today!  :)

A disk of early sonatas played on the harpsichord;
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519mgJ7bmcL._SS500_.jpg)

Stellar reviews, so despite not having heard of the fellow, decided to give him a chance. Looking forward to this one, actually. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51n1Rr7UAHL._SS400_.jpg)

Unlike some, I really do like Emma Kirkby, and Marcia Hadjimarkos has a super Haydn disk on Zig-Zag which she plays entirely on clavichord. I wanted to here a different approach to these songs, and I think this will offer one.

I bought the downloads of this set the day it came out, and decided that there were enough excellent performances on it to justify purchasing the entire box.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qRqqSyfmL._SS400_.jpg)

I like Minkowski's 'go for it' approach, clearly music that the band really like to play (well, how could they not?) and they are a talented bunch. :)

Richard Lester has been on my horizon for quite some time;
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511W86IIVRL._SS400_.jpg)

I have heard just one work off this disk and quite enjoyed it. I know I have another disk somewhere of him playing, I need to find it and refresh my memory.

And finally, some trios (there is another one too, but no picture available!);
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61LtUQd-QpL.jpg)

I have the London Fortepiano Trio's Mozart set, and as always, Huggett pleases me with her stylish fiddling, while Nicholson plays a supremely appropriate 1797 Schantz, always the perfect late Haydn keyboard. The only possible downside is that like most others, they are playing from a rather narrow pool of late works, in this case Hob 15:24-26. They could likely kick butt on Hob 6-9, for example. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 15, 2011, 04:28:26 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 14, 2011, 07:33:29 AM
I just got some music of Leopold Hofman (1738-93) on Naxos and I'm excited :)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-J7EzFfpnJOE/Tm95LwXGL2I/AAAAAAAANJk/t9dCsb37siM/s1600/hofmmann+portada.PNG)

As some here know, Mozart was Hofman's assistant at St. Stephens.
What's the verdict?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 15, 2011, 05:38:37 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 15, 2011, 04:28:26 AM
What's the verdict?

Well, I have listened to three symphonies so far, and I am impressed and deeply moved by Hofman's work, thanks in large part to the performance and nice sound of this recording. My favorite so far is the four movement symohony that has an adagio introduction before the 1st movement allegro. The music is lite with character and the orchestration clear with nice detail. I will need more listens for a more detailed review but I am VERY pleased with having this in my collection! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 17, 2011, 07:05:59 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 14, 2011, 05:16:09 PM
As usual, expanding my Haydn selection. Right now, in addition to filling gaps in places where I had just downloads and the disks were merited, I am also looking for early solo keyboard and keyboard trio disks. The keyboard trios are especially difficult, since if you take away the Trio 1790 disks, and the Van Sweiten Trio set (which uses an inappropriate fortepiano instead of a harpsichord (although lovely) anyway), there are really very very few recordings available, while the post 1790 works are thicker than fleas on a outdoor dog. But, as few selections out there today;

This one
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0d/32/ef5851c88da044a313d63210.L.jpg)

which I didn't even know existed! Apparently, the AAM began to record Volume 11 and got the first disk completed. It was released by the BBC, not L'Oiseau Lyre. I was very pleased to run across this today!  :)

A disk of early sonatas played on the harpsichord;
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519mgJ7bmcL._SS500_.jpg)

Stellar reviews, so despite not having heard of the fellow, decided to give him a chance. Looking forward to this one, actually. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51n1Rr7UAHL._SS400_.jpg)

Unlike some, I really do like Emma Kirkby, and Marcia Hadjimarkos has a super Haydn disk on Zig-Zag which she plays entirely on clavichord. I wanted to here a different approach to these songs, and I think this will offer one.

I bought the downloads of this set the day it came out, and decided that there were enough excellent performances on it to justify purchasing the entire box.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qRqqSyfmL._SS400_.jpg)

I like Minkowski's 'go for it' approach, clearly music that the band really like to play (well, how could they not?) and they are a talented bunch. :)

Richard Lester has been on my horizon for quite some time;
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511W86IIVRL._SS400_.jpg)

I have heard just one work off this disk and quite enjoyed it. I know I have another disk somewhere of him playing, I need to find it and refresh my memory.

And finally, some trios (there is another one too, but no picture available!);
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61LtUQd-QpL.jpg)

I have the London Fortepiano Trio's Mozart set, and as always, Huggett pleases me with her stylish fiddling, while Nicholson plays a supremely appropriate 1797 Schantz, always the perfect late Haydn keyboard. The only possible downside is that like most others, they are playing from a rather narrow pool of late works, in this case Hob 15:24-26. They could likely kick butt on Hob 6-9, for example. :)

8)

Its nice to look over your current Haydn interests Gurn. The disk of Hogwood's Haydn symphonies is a real nice find! I didn't know about that either. I still have to hear Hogwood's Haydn Symphonies though, of which I heard some from the library years and years ago. I'm sorely lacking in my knowledge of Haydn's early symphonic works.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2011, 07:17:27 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 17, 2011, 07:05:59 AM
Its nice to look over your current Haydn interests Gurn. The disk of Hogwood's Haydn symphonies is a real nice find! I didn't know about that either. I still have to hear Hogwood's Haydn Symphonies though, of which I heard some from the library years and years ago. I'm sorely lacking in my knowledge of Haydn's early symphonic works.

8)

Thanks, Leo. Yes, I was stunned to see that disk pop up. The only single disks I had ever heard (and have) are 94 & 96 and 100 & 104. They are on L'Oiseau Lyre, of course. The inference I make that this was a previously unreleased part of "Volume 11" is unsubstantiated but likely anyway. And it makes me wonder if there aren't one or 2 others out there. :-\

I really do think you would be very pleased with those recordings. The 2 single disks from what would have been a London set are available used for less than $10 ea. In fact, I got them as "Used - Like new" for less than $5 ea! But for early symphonies, I would recommend that you go to BRO and shop through the Goodman/Helios releases which are also excellent and as single disks can be had for $4.99 ea. Can't beat that!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 17, 2011, 09:02:54 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 17, 2011, 07:17:27 AM
Thanks, Leo. Yes, I was stunned to see that disk pop up. The only single disks I had ever heard (and have) are 94 & 96 and 100 & 104. They are on L'Oiseau Lyre, of course. The inference I make that this was a previously unreleased part of "Volume 11" is unsubstantiated but likely anyway. And it makes me wonder if there aren't one or 2 others out there. :-\

I really do think you would be very pleased with those recordings. The 2 single disks from what would have been a London set are available used for less than $10 ea. In fact, I got them as "Used - Like new" for less than $5 ea! But for early symphonies, I would recommend that you go to BRO and shop through the Goodman/Helios releases which are also excellent and as single disks can be had for $4.99 ea. Can't beat that!   :)

8)

Thanks for the recommend regarding BRO and the single Goodman/Helio disks! that is probably the way to go for the early symphonies in HIP. Back in the day, I had almost the complete LP sets of the Dorati Haydn symphonies and remember them fondly, but wish I hadn't got rid of them! Boooo!

Also, I remember I still have one LP of the Hogwood nos. 100 & 104 L'Oiseau Lyre release, and the sound is incredible!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 17, 2011, 09:08:10 AM
By the way, let me quickly praise these two recordings of Mozart's amazing La Clemenza di Tito! I've been getting rather obsessed with the special sound Mozart executed for this opera. Mozart's late style scoring has such a beautiful, simple, and fragile quality! Why I haven't quite noticed the orchestral tonality of this opera before is beyond me, but these two releases make see the light!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6105TZBB97L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Pg6tORuJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wow!  :o

Of these two I slightly prefer the Mackerras, but man, these are really fantastic!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 18, 2011, 07:47:42 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 28, 2011, 06:23:01 AM
There is nothing like the sound of Haydn, HIP style :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rtHRfF3IL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've Been listening to Bruggen's Haydn set of the London Symphonies and I'm so blown away. I'm used to the Fischer set, so what a refreshing experience of Haydn to hear Bruggen's take! 8)


Gurn, you got me to listen to Haydn this morning, for an excellant morning at work  ;) I'm listening to Bruggen's London Vol.2 at the moment! Great stuff!

I have decided how to spend my birthday money gift. It is high time I finally get a Haydn Complete Symphony box, and I have decided this is what I can afford (thanks to the good prices of an Amazon seller)!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Joseph Haydn: The Complete Symphonies
Dennis Russell Davies

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 18, 2011, 09:25:07 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 18, 2011, 07:47:42 AM

I have decided how to spend my birthday money gift. It is high time I finally get a Haydn Complete Symphony box, and I have decided this is what I can afford (thanks to the good prices of an Amazon seller)!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51L3NY-n5xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Sjwim9uOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FPfyAOWCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Hi Leo - hope that you will enjoy the Davies box; the only complete set that I own is w/ Adam Fischer, although I had thought about others before that purchase (i.e. Dorati and the Naxos box).

Now I also have some of the later ones duplicated, i.e. Kuijken in Nos. 82-92 & Minkowski in Nos. 93-104.

Also, curious if Hyperion/Helios will ever put the Roy Goodman performances in a big box (or have they yet?);  I would love to have the Kuijken London Symphonies but the import price ($65 on Amazon USA at the moment) is a little hefty.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2011, 10:18:43 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 18, 2011, 07:47:42 AM

Gurn, you got me to listen to Haydn this morning, for an excellant morning at work  ;) I'm listening to Bruggen's London Vol.2 at the moment! Great stuff!

I have decided how to spend my birthday money gift. It is high time I finally get a Haydn Complete Symphony box, and I have decided this is what I can afford (thanks to the good prices of an Amazon seller)!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Joseph Haydn: The Complete Symphonies
Dennis Russell Davies

8)

Leo,
That's great! I think you will find a treasure trove in Haydn's symphonies. The only complete set I have is the Fischer, which is a strong recommend in my book. Davies may well be cool, though, I have just never heard anything from it. Let us know!

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 18, 2011, 09:25:07 AM
Hi Leo - hope that you will enjoy the Davies box; the only complete set that I own is w/ Adam Fischer, although I had thought about others before that purchase (i.e. Dorati and the Naxos box).

Now I also have some of the later ones duplicated, i.e. Kuijken in Nos. 82-92 & Minkowski in Nos. 93-104.

Also, curious if Hyperion/Helios will ever put the Roy Goodman performances in a big box (or have they yet?);  I would love to have the Kuijken London Symphonies but the import price ($65 on Amazon USA at the moment) is a little hefty.  Dave :)

You know, Dave, I think the reason that they haven't done is because the cycle never got finished. I suspect it won't be either, so the chances of it being 'big boxed' seem slight. I now have all but one of them anyway, so the only more joy I could see would be a release of the missing few. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 18, 2011, 01:53:32 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 18, 2011, 10:18:43 AM
You know, Dave, I think the reason that they haven't done is because the cycle never got finished. I suspect it won't be either, so the chances of it being 'big boxed' seem slight. I now have all but one of them anyway, so the only more joy I could see would be a release of the missing few. :)


Good evening Gurn - I picked up just a handful of the early symphonies w/ Goodman from BRO, but sort of stopped after obtaining the Fischer box - unfortunate, I liked his approach - maybe some day but who knows in this classical music business?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2011, 02:03:40 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 18, 2011, 01:53:32 PM
Good evening Gurn - I picked up just a handful of the early symphonies w/ Goodman from BRO, but sort of stopped after obtaining the Fischer box - unfortunate, I liked his approach - maybe some day but who knows in this classical music business?  Dave :)

Hey, Dave. Really, who does know? Hyperion might be out tomorrow with an entire that they have been saving up. :) In the PI world, other than a few single disks here and there (mostly versions of 6, 7 & 8, and 12 because of its unique background), there are only 2 obtainable versions, Hogwood and Goodman (obviously I don't include the outstanding Solomons under 'obtainable'!) and of those, Hogwood is usually rare and expensive while Goodman is still an easy catch. Despite having nearly every PI recording ever made, most early symphonies are represented in my collection with just the 2. So it goes. I know Fischer to be very fine in the early works though. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 20, 2011, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 18, 2011, 10:18:43 AM
Leo,
That's great! I think you will find a treasure trove in Haydn's symphonies. The only complete set I have is the Fischer, which is a strong recommend in my book. Davies may well be cool, though, I have just never heard anything from it. Let us know!


I will let ya know what I think Gurn! the reviews on amazon give it pretty favorable remarks. It shipped out today, so I'm eagerly awaiting to hear it!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 20, 2011, 05:38:33 PM
Quote from: Leo K on September 20, 2011, 05:14:28 PM
I will let ya know what I think Gurn! the reviews on amazon give it pretty favorable remarks. It shipped out today, so I'm eagerly awaiting to hear it!

Good deal, Leo. I'm curious, if you don't mind sharing; what kind of a deal did you get? I've seen prices all over the map, although I think that after it has been out longer it will stabilize. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 21, 2011, 02:19:56 AM
I'm waiting on a BRO package myself, which will contain 16 of the 17 Goodman Haydns. They didn't have ##82-84, so I had my local store order it for me. Waiting for that too.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2011, 04:20:18 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on September 21, 2011, 02:19:56 AM
I'm waiting on a BRO package myself, which will contain 16 of the 17 Goodman Haydns. They didn't have ##82-84, so I had my local store order it for me. Waiting for that too.

Alright! I think you should be quite pleased with those. It is so disappointing when a good group makes 80+% of a cycle and then gets shut down. Along with Hogwood, and to a lesser extent Brüggen and Solomons, this is another sad example. But I do appreciate what they did anyway, which was some nice work. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 21, 2011, 04:32:50 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 21, 2011, 04:20:18 AM
Alright! I think you should be quite pleased with those. It is so disappointing when a good group makes 80+% of a cycle and then gets shut down. Along with Hogwood, and to a lesser extent Brüggen and Solomons, this is another sad example. But I do appreciate what they did anyway, which was some nice work. :)
8)

I have the Fischer, which I very much like except for the earlier recordings (of the later symphonies) which I find cavernous. Marriner's Paris set is much too staid. Fey's Paris set is fabulous. (Will they box his Londons sometime soon?) And I'm very fond of Colin Davis' Londons, though I don't suppose there is anything HIP about them.  ;) I'm looking forward to hearing Goodman's voice.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 21, 2011, 05:13:07 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 20, 2011, 05:38:33 PM
Good deal, Leo. I'm curious, if you don't mind sharing; what kind of a deal did you get? I've seen prices all over the map, although I think that after it has been out longer it will stabilize. :)

8)

Gurn, with tax it came out to 60 bucks.
Not bad for 37 disks :) I got a new set from a seller.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2011, 06:07:08 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 21, 2011, 05:13:07 AM
Gurn, with tax it came out to 60 bucks.
Not bad for 37 disks :) I got a new set from a seller.

:)

Yeah, that's a good deal. If I have seen it lower, it wasn't by much, but I've for sure seen it higher; over $100 in some places! :o

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 22, 2011, 03:34:56 AM
The Goodman platters are in and spinning, and this cat thinks they're cool, daddy, cool!
8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2011, 04:13:18 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on September 22, 2011, 03:34:56 AM
The Goodman platters are in and spinning, and this cat thinks they're cool, daddy, cool!
8)

Alrighty then! :)  When i followed that same route I was very pleased with myself when the critical music playing began.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 22, 2011, 06:21:05 PM
I am now listening to the first disk of my new Haydn symphonies box (Dennis Russel Davies), and wow, it all sounds great!!! I am very happy with the performances and sound :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 02:16:22 AM
All Haydn all the time!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 03:55:40 AM
Re. Goodman again, I was more than usually impressed by his #22 this morning. I think when I get home I'll compare it directly with the Fischer.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 04:13:16 AM
Oh gosh, I hope I am not going to ruin everyone with that wretched Haydn music... :D :D

Good deal there, Leo. Hope it continues to please. :)

Well, Chas, I happen to have #22 here at work, so I will join you in listening to it. Always liked that symphony. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 23, 2011, 04:34:54 AM
I'm playing the second disk here at my second job, and playing the second disk as I scan products on the shelves! This stuff is fantastic! I will do the same at my full time job at the hospital later! Haydn all the time!

:) :) :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 04:47:10 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 23, 2011, 04:34:54 AM
I'm playing the second disk here at my second job, and playing the second disk as I scan products on the shelves! This stuff is fantastic! I will do the same at my full time job at the hospital later! Haydn all the time!

:) :) :)

Guess I should have put a disclaimer in my tagline;

Caution: Haydn can become a dominating influence to the musically susceptible!

:D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 05:04:37 AM
While we're indulging this addiction, I recently relistened to this:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Jun04/Haydn_Londontrios_9999202.jpg)

I'm not enamoured of salient fortepiano, but found to my surprise I quite liked the instrument's effect in the quicksilver movements. The slow movements, alas, somewhat harshed my mellow.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 06:08:23 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 05:04:37 AM
While we're indulging this addiction, I recently relistened to this:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Jun04/Haydn_Londontrios_9999202.jpg)

I'm not enamoured of salient fortepiano, but found to my surprise I quite liked the instrument's effect in the quicksilver movements. The slow movements, alas, somewhat harshed my mellow.

On that disk, I use Hob 04_1-4, the trios for 2 flutes and cello. They are especially nicely done. The fortepiano trios I use La Gaia Scienza on Winter & Winter. For those 4 flute trios though, CK can't be beat! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 23, 2011, 10:04:04 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 05:04:37 AM
While we're indulging this addiction, I recently relistened to this:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Jun04/Haydn_Londontrios_9999202.jpg)

I'm not enamoured of salient fortepiano, but found to my surprise I quite liked the instrument's effect in the quicksilver movements. The slow movements, alas, somewhat harshed my mellow.

Me want salient fortepiano! Me like salient fortepiano! Me want that disk!  8) ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 23, 2011, 01:44:39 PM
Well Guys - went on a Jadin buying spree (although a rather exaggerated statement w/ the limited number of his recordings available) - re-listening to the 3 newest additions to my collection from the 'flower child' - wish he had lived longer -  :-\

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gxj2SBz/0/S/JadinPianoSonatasPenn-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-9xgFvrc/0/S/JadinStringTriosNCA-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5L3p3KQ/0/S/JadinSQsFJSQ-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 02:22:57 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 23, 2011, 01:44:39 PM
Well Guys - went on a Jadin buying spree (although a rather exaggerated statement w/ the limited number of his recordings available) - re-listening to the 3 newest additions to my collection from the 'flower child' - wish he had lived longer -  :-\

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gxj2SBz/0/S/JadinPianoSonatasPenn-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-9xgFvrc/0/S/JadinStringTriosNCA-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5L3p3KQ/0/S/JadinSQsFJSQ-S.jpg)

Excellent, Dave. I have the first 2 and know you'll like them, I really need to get the 4tets though. My loss, at the moment. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 04:06:00 PM
Quote from: Leo K on September 23, 2011, 10:04:04 AM
Me want salient fortepiano! Me like salient fortepiano! Me want that disk!  8) ;D

Go for it!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 10:24:27 AM
Quote from: Leo K on September 11, 2011, 11:34:03 AM
I am very excited as my fiancee bought me this book for my birthday!  :o :P ;D

(http://salonsanctuaryconcerts.org/images/239_music-in-european-capitals-galant-style-1720-1780-daniel-heartz-hardcover-cover-art.jpg)

Well, Leo, I just took the plunge on volume 3;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MrfSLSbrL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

Expect it will be here by Wednesday, really looking forward to it, and hoping that it talks about other contemporaries a bit too.

Curious if you have had a go at volume 2 yet... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 24, 2011, 10:58:05 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 24, 2011, 10:24:27 AM
Well, Leo, I just took the plunge on volume 3;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MrfSLSbrL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

Expect it will be here by Wednesday, really looking forward to it, and hoping that it talks about other contemporaries a bit too.

Curious if you have had a go at volume 2 yet... :)

8)

Gurn, congrats! I am sure you will love that book! I'm currently on chapter 2 of Volume 2, and it is a gripping read for those who are fascinated by galant, classical and high classical music, i.e., everybody here on this thread!

My fiancee also recently surprised me with a second birthday present, which floored me, because this was another book I always wanted but was too expensive to buy:

(http://covers.openlibrary.org/w/id/142666-L.jpg)

QuoteFrom Library Journal:

Salieri's place in music history may have been permanently influenced by the film Amadeus, in which he is one-dimensionally portrayed as Mozart's less-talented nemesis. Now musicologist Rice, author of numerous articles on 18th-century music, has contributed a magnificent study of the complex musical and social circles that flourished at the court of Emperor Joseph II. Richly detailed and copiously footnoted, Rice's book masterfully interweaves three strands of scholarship: biographical information, an overview of the traditions and conventions of Viennese opera during the latter half of the century, and a close examination of several of Salieri's own operas. This last thread is perhaps the most valuable, as much for its use of previously unpublished sources as for Rice's perceptive and illuminating comments. The chapter "Mozart and Salieri" is a triumph of reasoned, careful research over unsupported Hollywood hype. This important book fills a conspicuous gap in musical scholarship and is enthusiastically recommended for all public and academic libraries.?Larry A. Lipkis, Moravian Coll., Bethlehem, PA
Copyright 1998 Reed Business Information, Inc.

My jaw dropped to the floor upon opening my gift!

I've read John A. Rice articles, and love his scholarship and style. Like Daniel Heartz, he is very articulate and highly readable, with interesting insights for reflection.

8)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 12:47:41 PM
Quote from: Leo K on September 24, 2011, 10:58:05 AM
Gurn, congrats! I am sure you will love that book! I'm currently on chapter 2 of Volume 2, and it is a gripping read for those who are fascinated by galant, classical and high classical music, i.e., everybody here on this thread!

My fiancee also recently surprised me with a second birthday present, which floored me, because this was another book I always wanted but was too expensive to buy:

(http://covers.openlibrary.org/w/id/142666-L.jpg)

My jaw dropped to the floor upon opening my gift!

I've read John A. Rice articles, and love his scholarship and style. Like Daniel Heartz, he is very articulate and highly readable, with interesting insights for reflection.

8)

Wow, that's a beauty! I've never heard of that one, so I was sitting here being pleased with myself! Umm thanks for that  :-\



:D



8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 24, 2011, 01:27:41 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 24, 2011, 10:24:27 AM
Well, Leo, I just took the plunge on volume 3;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MrfSLSbrL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

Expect it will be here by Wednesday, really looking forward to it, and hoping that it talks about other contemporaries a bit too.

Curious if you have had a go at volume 2 yet... :)

Guys - I've been looking at those Daniel Heartz books for a while, but my hesitations are first the prices and second whether the musical discussion is more detailed than I need (or can understand, i.e. a bunch of musical scores, discussion of key changes, etc.) - if written for the 'informed layman' then I would consider a purchase - any advice would be appreciated; thanks - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 01:36:07 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 24, 2011, 01:27:41 PM
Guys - I've been looking at those Daniel Heartz books for a while, but my hesitations are first the prices and second whether the musical discussion is more detailed than I need (or can understand, i.e. a bunch of musical scores, discussion of key changes, etc.) - if written for the 'informed layman' then I would consider a purchase - any advice would be appreciated; thanks - Dave :)

Dave,
Well, that's always a huge concern for me, too since $50 can buy a lot of music as opposed to a book I only understand 20% of. :D  I had 2 things that got me moving in that direction. First, and most importantly, I bought another book by Heartz, it is on Mozart's operas and since it is in paper instead of hardcover, it only cost $12. I've now nearly finished with it and I found the few musical examples to be relatively easy to understand, well-explained, and they were few enough to be skippable without feeling like I had missed the point. Secondly, in the lone review of the book that I bought today, the reviewer mentions specifically that the music examples aren't overwhelming. My feeling from reading Mozart's Operas is that Heartz is an historian who really has a grip on music rather than a music theoretician who is interested in history. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on September 26, 2011, 05:25:58 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 23, 2011, 01:44:39 PM
Well Guys - went on a Jadin buying spree (although a rather exaggerated statement w/ the limited number of his recordings available) - re-listening to the 3 newest additions to my collection from the 'flower child' - wish he had lived longer -  :-\

Dave, that string quartets CD is new to me. I presume it contains excellent music; the quartets I have listened to are marvelous.

Gurn, those are splendid books. Have you already purchased Abert's Mozart in the new English translation?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 26, 2011, 05:33:48 PM
Quote from: Gabriel on September 26, 2011, 05:25:58 PM
Dave, that string quartets CD is new to me. I presume it contains excellent music; the quartets I have listened to are marvelous.

Gurn, those are splendid books. Have you already purchased Abert's Mozart in the new English translation?

Gabriel! Such a pleasure to have you drop in!

Well, I have been looking at them for quite some time, wondering if I could ever get the entire set without selling off grandchildren. Seems not, and they've hidden the little rascals from me, so I guess it will be Vol. 3 for now... :D

Well, I haven't done, despite knowing about it, and its quality for quite some time. My ability to multitask seems to have diminished with time, so now that I am concentrating on Haydn, only the high points of Mozart come to the fore. Well, lots of those, aren't there? :)

Hope you are well, and will be more conspicuous soon!

Cheers,
8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 27, 2011, 06:39:41 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on September 26, 2011, 05:25:58 PM
Dave, that string quartets CD is new to me. I presume it contains excellent music; the quartets I have listened to are marvelous.

Gurn, those are splendid books. Have you already purchased Abert's Mozart in the new English translation?

Hi Gabriel - nice to see you back & hope all is going well - :)

Concerning the Jadin, I like all of those 3 discs shown before; the string writing is particularly well accomplished for such a young composer and the performances are excellent.

Your comment on the Abert book on Mozart interests me, too - both a reinterpretation, a translation, and an update from a multi-volume book published back in the mid-19th century at Wolfie's centennial - a little of a longer quote below from Amazon; the book is $40 there at the moment - appears that extensive 'updated' notes are made throughout; 1500+ pages!  Dave

QuoteHermann Abert's classic biography, first published in German more than eighty years ago and itself based on the definitive mid-nineteenth century study by Otto Jahn, remains the most informed and substantial biography of Mozart in any language.....

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21KhfBOhG7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on September 27, 2011, 06:53:56 AM
Quoteappears that extensive 'updated' notes are made throughout

No doubt including the recent and very important work done by Dr. Rob Newman.

:P
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 27, 2011, 07:36:25 AM
Quote from: Leon on September 27, 2011, 06:53:56 AM
No doubt including the recent and very important work done by Dr. Rob Newman.

:P

No, no, it's OK to doubt that. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on September 28, 2011, 02:24:29 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 29, 2011, 03:53:23 PM
Stunning disk!

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Nov04/Hartmann_7770602.jpg)


+1
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on September 28, 2011, 05:33:34 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 27, 2011, 07:36:25 AM

Quote from: Leon on September 27, 2011, 06:53:56 AM
No doubt including the recent and very important work done by Dr. Rob Newman.

:P
No, no, it's OK to doubt that. :)

8)

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on September 28, 2011, 06:34:13 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on September 28, 2011, 02:24:29 AM
+1

Glad you agree!  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 01, 2011, 09:13:47 AM
So, tell me about the Mannheim School. Composers, performers, pieces to look out for, pro or con. How does it compare to mature classicism? Whatever else...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 01, 2011, 10:56:05 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 01, 2011, 09:13:47 AM
So, tell me about the Mannheim School. Composers, performers, pieces to look out for, pro or con. How does it compare to mature classicism? Whatever else...

Right off the bat, I 'd have to recommend Johann Stamitz! Scholar Daniel Heartz says that Stamitz's symphonies have no parallel in the 1750s. He was a true innovator and helped make Manheim's orchestra famous.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rSYm4HL0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C0D6n3A8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Wiki:
QuoteJan Václav Antonín Stamic (later, during his life in Mannheim, germanized as Johann Wenzel Anton Stamitz; June 18, 1717, Deutschbrod, Bohemia – March 27, 1757, Mannheim, Electoral Palatinate) was a Czech composer and violinist. Johann was the father of Carl Stamitz and Anton Stamitz, also composers. His music reflects the transition of the baroque period to the classical.

Stamitz spent the academic year 1734–1735 at the University of Prague. After only one year, he left the university to pursue a career as a violin virtuoso. Stamitz' activities during the six-year period between his departure from the university in 1735 and his appointment in Mannheim around 1741 are not precisely known.

Stamitz was appointed by the Mannheim court either in 1741 or 1742. Most likely, his engagement at Mannheim resulted from contacts made during the Bohemian campaign and coronation of Carl Albert (Karl VII), a close ally of the Elector Palatine. In January 1742 Stamitz performed at Mannheim as part of the festivities surrounding the marriage of Karl Theodor, who succeeded his uncle Karl Philipp as Elector Palatine less than a year later; Karl Albert of Bavaria was a guest at the wedding.

Stamitz was married on July 1, 1744 to Maria Antonia Luneborn. They had five children together, Carl Philipp, Maria Francisco, Anton Thadäus Nepomuk, and two children who died in infancy.

Probably around the late summer of 1754, Stamitz took a year-long journey to Paris, perhaps at the invitation of the musical patron Alexandre Le Riche de La Poupelinière, with whom he stayed; Stamitz appeared in public in Paris for the first time at a Concert Spirituel of September 8 1754. Stamitz' success in Paris induced him to publish his Orchestral Trios, Op. 1, and possibly other publications with various Parisian publishers.

Stamitz probably returned to Mannheim around the autumn of 1755, dying there in spring 1757, less than two years later, at the age of 39. The entry of his death reads:

"March 30, 1757. Buried, Jo'es Stainmiz, director of court music, so expert in his art that his equal will hardly be found. Rite provided"

Stamitz expanded the orchestral score, making the winds essential for the composition. His symphonies of the 1750s are scored for eight parts; four strings, two horns, two oboes, although flutes and clarinets may substitute. Horns not only provided a harmonic backdrop for strings, but solo lines as well, and he was also one of the first composers to write independent lines for oboes.

The chief innovation in Stamitz's symphonic works is their adoption of the cycle of four movements, with a fast/slow pair followed by a minuet and trio in the third movement, ending with a Presto or Prestissimo movement. While isolated examples of this structure exist previously, Stamitz was the first composer to use it consistently: well over half of his symphonies and nine of his ten orchestral trios are in four movements. He also contributed to the development of sonata form, most often used in the first movements of symphonies.

Stamitz also adapted and extended traits originally developed in the Italian opera in his compositions. He added features in his pieces such as extended crescendo passages and other dynamic effects. Stamitz also incorporated simplified tutti chordal textures, sectionally specialized scores, and slow harmonic motion. Like Italian operas, Stamitz's compositions have a strong sense of rhythmic drive and distinctive thematic material within the exposition.

Stamitz's most important compositions are his 58 symphonies and his 10 orchestral trios. The orchestral trios, although frequently classified as symphonies, are actually somewhere between the symphony and the chamber trio, and may be played with or without doubling of parts. Stamitz was also a composer of concertos. These include, in addition to his numerous violin concertos, two for harpsichord, 12 for flute, one for oboe, and one for clarinet - among the earliest concertos for the instrument (Johann Melchior Molter's six from the 1740s seem to have been the first[citation needed]). He also composed a large amount of chamber music for various instrumental combinations, as well as eight vocal works including his widely circulated concert Mass in D.

Due to at least five other musicians of the 18th century bearing the surname Stamitz, including four from Johann's immediate family, any attempt to catalog Stamitz's works is risky at best, principally in view of the many variations in spelling. Actually, few difficulties arise in distinguishing between works by Johann Stamitz and those of his sons Carl and Anton. By contrast, the relationship of the names 'Steinmetz' and 'Stamitz' has caused substantial confusion, as at least two other musicians called 'Steinmetz' lived in the 18th century.




Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 01, 2011, 03:31:14 PM
Quote from: Leo K on October 01, 2011, 10:56:05 AM
Right off the bat, I 'd have to recommend Johann Stamitz! Scholar Daniel Heartz says that Stamitz's symphonies have no parallel in the 1750s. He was a true innovator and helped make Manheim's orchestra famous.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rSYm4HL0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C0D6n3A8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Leo - ya know, I thought that my collection had some J. Stamitz, but just checking I own 6 discs of his son Carl's music, so later into the classical era and excellent!  So, I probably need to explore the father - :)  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 02, 2011, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Leo K on October 01, 2011, 10:56:05 AM
Right off the bat, I 'd have to recommend Johann Stamitz! Scholar Daniel Heartz says that Stamitz's symphonies have no parallel in the 1750s. He was a true innovator and helped make Manheim's orchestra famous.

Solid! Thanks, Leo.

I love, no, genuflect before son Carl's duos, but there's nothing transitional about those.

Do the Bach sons fit in with the Mannheim trend? What I've heard of CPE is angular and energetic. How does Mannheim compare to what is called gallant? An angry and muscular version of same? A parallel development toward sophisticated monophony? Enlighten me!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 06:46:39 AM
chas et al,
Well, rather than type vast reams, I went to Grove's and copied their article on style here. For a little background, there were several centers of musical development in Europe at that time, Italy still being the main one (with all its subsections; Naples, Rome, Venice etc), but also the main axis was shifting north rather rapidly. Someone mentioned the Bachsonnes, they were actually well north of Mannheim, in and around Berlin/Potsdam by then. From what I can see, the main musicians in Mannheim were Bohemians (Czechs). Johan Stamitz, Georg Benda, countless others, all Bohemians. The leaders/composers were a mix of developed-at-home like Stamitz, and hired guns, like Nicolo Jomelli. So there was a large Italian influence in some critical areas. Despite the fact that the specific composers are not household names today (although some should be!) it is the playing style they created which exercised  such a great influence on the rest of Europe. Mozart, for example, was blown away by their playing. Anyway, here is that article.

From "The New Grove" article "Mannheim Style":
Mannheim style.
A style found in instrumental works, primarily symphonies, by composers active at the electoral court of Mannheim from about 1740 to 1778. A principal feature of the style is its tendency to exploit dynamic effects. On the small scale, this may take the form of either an abrupt or a graduated change in dynamic level within a short span of time, adding to the expressive and dramatic character of the work (exx.1 and 3). On a larger scale, Mannheim symphonies often incorporate an extended, thematically independent crescendo passage or Walze ('roller', sometimes anachronistically translated as 'steamroller'; ex.2). Such passages, most of which contain a rising melodic line over a pedal point or oscillating bass pattern, typically reappear at important junctures within the movement, contributing a sense of profile to the form. The predilection at Mannheim for striking dynamic effects doubtless finds its best explanation in the superlative quality of the Mannheim orchestra; the renowned precision of execution of this orchestra, as well as its large size, served to foster such a compositional approach. This approach did not, however, originate with Mannheim (as claimed by Riemann, who published the first detailed description of the Mannheim style). Rather, it originated to a substantial degree in Italy, most notably in opera of the early Classical period and its associated instrumental music; Italian opera formed the core of the Mannheim operatic repertory and was thus familiar to the composers there. For example, crescendo passages comparable in virtually every respect with those of Johann Stamitz occur at an earlier date in overtures to operas by Nicolò Jommelli. (note: Jommelli spent several years working at Mannheim, so his influence didn't "filter in", he introduced it to Stamitz, who was the first violin/concertmaster at the time - GB).

Riemann also devoted considerable attention to the Mannheim melodic style, delineating a large number of what he termed 'Mannheimer Manieren' or Mannheim figures. (The idea of a 'mannered Mannheim style' was not new; Leopold Mozart remarked on the 'vermanierierten Manheimmer goût' in a letter to his son, 11 December 1777, probably referring to the Piano Sonata k309/284b.) The figures discussed by Riemann are primarily orchestral and include the 'sigh' (see ex.1), the Bebung (see ex.3), and the 'rocket' (a rising triadic theme in equal note values). While Riemann was correct in pointing out the existence of these and other melodic clichés in the Mannheim symphony, he again erred in assigning priority to Mannheim: all can be found earlier in Italy, not only in vocal but in instrumental music, especially opera overtures. It is true that many symphonies from Stamitz's late period, and particularly those of Anton Fils and the later Mannheim symphonists, make more extensive and more stylized use of these melodic conventions than do contemporaneous Italian opera overtures; but their origin was Italy, and by mid-century they were in use all over Europe.

The same may be said of various other characteristics often associated with the Mannheim style, for instance homophonic texture, slow harmonic rhythm, and thematic differentiation within expositions of fast movements (e.g. the use of a contrasting secondary theme). In the realm of orchestration, though, the Mannheim symphony goes well beyond its Italian models, especially in the idiomatic quality of its scoring and the frequent introduction of solo passages for woodwind and horns. Here again the excellence of the electoral orchestra played an obvious role, although the soloistic use of the wind in particular may also betray French influence (e.g. that of Rameau).

Riemann's conception of the Mannheim style, which has formed the basis of many more recent accounts, can also be criticized for its tendency to view that style as monolithic, cutting across boundaries of both genre and personal idiom. In the case of genre, his description actually applies only to selected symphonies and a few orchestral trios and quartets: the chamber style at Mannheim differs markedly from the orchestral, the concerto style is generally conservative, and the operatic and church styles lean heavily on Italian vocal models, to mention the most notable exceptions to the common stereotype. Even within the symphony, the variety of styles remains great, conspicuously so in the works of those composers active at Mannheim before 1760 (Stamitz, F.X. Richter, Ignaz Holzbauer and Fils). In sum, musical style at Mannheim encompasses a wide range of stylistic types, evident not only between composers, but also within the work of each composer.


I highlighted a few names and ideas in there. Some later names that I personally feel were notable are Christian Cannabich, and in particular F. Ignaz Beck, who IMO was the best of the bunch at interesting symphonic composition.

Anyway, that'll do for getting along with. I haven't really seen a book to recommend specifically on this topic, but there are so many mentions of it 'here and there' that one comes away after a few years of reading with the belief that one actually knows something about it! :D  Maybe so....

Regards,
Gurn 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 02, 2011, 07:11:26 AM
Gurn - thanks for the interesting (and concise) quote & your discussion on the Mannheim school & orchestra - I own the book below (not cheap on the Oxford label) which I mentioned previously (maybe in this thread - too lazy to search at the moment); but for those interested, the orchestra is traced from 1650-1815 (as shown on the front cover) - the discussion is excellent and the development and expansion of a wide assortment of 'bands' is discussed.

Now, pertinent to the Mannheim Orchestra, the number and composition (this is from an appendix in the back listing numerous orchestras in the 1773-78 period; in a compilation of 33 for that time period, the average #performers was 33, range, 12-68) was:

21 Violins - 7 Violas - 4 Cellos - 3 Double Basses
3 Flutes - 3 Oboes - 4 Clarinets - 4 Bassoons
6 Horns - 2 trumpets - 1 Timpani - 2 Harpsichords  TOTAL: Nearly 60 (I'm sure not all played during each performance).

But, this was quite a BIG orchestra for its time, and of course had enormous and deep talent in its performers (and composers) - Dave :)



(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm100737445/birth-orchestra-history-institution-1650-1815-john-spitzer-paperback-cover-art.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 07:22:22 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 02, 2011, 07:11:26 AM
Gurn - thanks for the interesting (and concise) quote & your discussion on the Mannheim school & orchestra - I own the book below (not cheap on the Oxford label) which I mentioned previously (maybe in this thread - too lazy to search at the moment); but for those interested, the orchestra is traced from 1650-1815 (as shown on the front cover) - the discussion is excellent and the development and expansion of a wide assortment of 'bands' is discussed.

Now, pertinent to the Mannheim Orchestra, the number and composition (this is from an appendix in the back listing numerous orchestras in the 1773-78 period; in a compilation of 33 for that time period, the average #performers was 33, range, 12-68) was:

21 Violins - 7 Violas - 4 Cellos - 3 Double Basses
3 Flutes - 3 Oboes - 4 Clarinets - 4 Bassoons
6 Horns - 2 trumpets - 1 Timpani - 2 Harpsichords  TOTAL: Nearly 60 (I'm sure not all played during each performance).

But, this was quite a BIG orchestra for its time, and of course had enormous and deep talent in its performers (and composers) - Dave :)
(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm100737445/birth-orchestra-history-institution-1650-1815-john-spitzer-paperback-cover-art.jpg)

Thanks, Dave, and also for the book info. Now that you refresh my memory, I do recall you posting this before. I need to add it to the library!

That was a HUGE orchestra! Other than the occasional "festival orchestra and chorus" as we call them today, I don't think I have seen one referenced at that size until Haydn's London trips in the 1790's. Although it is very difficult to pin down how many players were actually available for any particular concert, since the numbers come from such things as payroll records (which includes retirees, for example) and tax rolls and expense reports (which includes supernumeraries). This is a problem with all 18th century records, even the fastidiously kept ones at Esterhazy. Nonetheless, the size of the orchestra, coupled with the precision of their playing knocked the socks off all who heard them.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 02, 2011, 10:32:55 AM
Thanks all, good stuff.

Beecke and Richter I am familiar with through these releases:

(http://puckette.com/images/103551f.jpg)

(http://images.music-story.com/img/album_R_400/rincontro-richter-quatuors-opus-5.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 10:42:45 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 02, 2011, 10:32:55 AM
Thanks all, good stuff.

Beecke and Richter I am familiar with through these releases:

(http://puckette.com/images/103551f.jpg)

(http://images.music-story.com/img/album_R_400/rincontro-richter-quatuors-opus-5.jpg)

Strongly recommend Ignaz Beck. This is a good intro:

[asin]B0000014AK[/asin] or

[asin]B003IP2Y4O[/asin] or

[asin]B0002J9TSI[/asin]

Naxos has more than done justice (they have 3 or 4 more), and CPO has done well too (4 disks, 2 complete opuses)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 03, 2011, 02:57:16 AM
Not Mannheimer, but this looks like a good set for someone (like me) who wants a bit of everything but not every little bit. $30 for 5 discs right now at Arkiv. Comments?

(http://image.musicimport.biz/sdimages/upc09/095115162828.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 03, 2011, 03:04:10 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 03, 2011, 02:57:16 AM
Not Mannheimer, but this looks like a good set for someone (like me) who wants a bit of everything but not every little bit. $30 for 5 discs right now at Arkiv. Comments?

(http://image.musicimport.biz/sdimages/upc09/095115162828.jpg)
Outstanding. I have three of the five, each very good. Can be had for about $27 (inlcudes US shipping) at Amazon MP. In any case, the quality of the discs is good - no need to hesitate over that. The others in the series are also excellent!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 03, 2011, 03:38:27 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 23, 2011, 01:44:39 PM
Well Guys - went on a Jadin buying spree (although a rather exaggerated statement w/ the limited number of his recordings available) - re-listening to the 3 newest additions to my collection from the 'flower child' - wish he had lived longer -  :-\

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gxj2SBz/0/S/JadinPianoSonatasPenn-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-9xgFvrc/0/S/JadinStringTriosNCA-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5L3p3KQ/0/S/JadinSQsFJSQ-S.jpg)

I've been well pleased by the Jadin 3s for some time, but just this morning managed to give the 4s a good listen (meaning a car listen) and my rude peasant brain found them splendid. Between this and their recording of Rigel 4s, Quatuor Franz Joseph has shown itself a more than capable outfit.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2011, 04:15:12 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 03, 2011, 02:57:16 AM
Not Mannheimer, but this looks like a good set for someone (like me) who wants a bit of everything but not every little bit. $30 for 5 discs right now at Arkiv. Comments?

(http://image.musicimport.biz/sdimages/upc09/095115162828.jpg)

Absolutely. No worries there, matey. IIRC< there are 2 of those 5 disk boxes that would give you the lion's share of that series. Having the bulk of the series as singles, I would opt for the 5 boxes now. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 03, 2011, 04:37:26 AM
Gurn and MC - thanks! I'll plunk for this when budget allows.

Maybe more of the series will find itself boxed in future.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 03, 2011, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 03, 2011, 04:37:26 AM
Gurn and MC - thanks! I'll plunk for this when budget allows.

Maybe more of the series will find itself boxed in future.

Chas - not to worry; Bamert has pleased me in many different recordings in this series - concerning the current offering, I have recordings of the symphonies of all of these composers (not all by Bamert) and the music is uniformly excellent!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 04, 2011, 02:32:42 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Beethoven_Symphonies_CFP.jpg)

Gave #6 a spin this morning and it was... alright.

Beethoven just doesn't do it for me. I hear a bearish personality in everything he wrote, and I much prefer my music abstract. Is I dumb? Maybe I'm stuck inside an idee fixe?

A cry for help. Help!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 04:56:12 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 04, 2011, 02:32:42 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Beethoven_Symphonies_CFP.jpg)

Gave #6 a spin this morning and it was... alright.

Beethoven just doesn't do it for me. I hear a bearish personality in everything he wrote, and I much prefer my music abstract. Is I dumb? Maybe I'm stuck inside an idee fixe?

A cry for help. Help!

I don't know about all that, chas. Personally I hear everything as abstract (absolute as the music people say) so other than the occasional birdcall, I don't hear the 6th any differently than the other F major symphony.

I have to say that if you hear all his compositions that way, you very well may be stuck in an idee fixe. There are thousands of moments of great delicacy and beauty to offset the moments of power and even brutality. I recommend that you move away from the symphonies and towards the chamber music instead. Not talking late quartets here, Beethoven wrote dozens of early chamber works that are a pleasure to hear. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 04, 2011, 05:55:16 AM
Good advice. I have available to me piano, cello and violin sonatas, piano and string trios. I will revisit these and make an effort not to picture that surly face while I listen!

Interesting use of "absolute". Daniel Jones applied the word to some of Dylan Thomas's poetry, and specifically (iirc) to Altarwise by Owl Light. Such poetry uses an interlinked web of sounds, rhythms,  images, grammatical structures and meanings to constitute its lyrical sense, to be what it would otherwise be about. Such a creation is inherently difficult, if not impossible, to parse in plain prose; thus the moniker "absolute". Strikes me there is a good analogy here to some musics at least.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 04, 2011, 06:06:42 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 04, 2011, 02:32:42 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Beethoven_Symphonies_CFP.jpg)

Gave #6 a spin this morning and it was... alright.

Beethoven just doesn't do it for me. I hear a bearish personality in everything he wrote, and I much prefer my music abstract. Is I dumb? Maybe I'm stuck inside an idee fixe?

A cry for help. Help!
Maybe this is one of those times where you need to pay less attention? It sounds like you overthinking it. Good advice - as I was doing something similar to RVW #1 yesterday. When I stopped trying to listen and just listened, I enjoyed myself much more (and the music too).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 04, 2011, 06:17:32 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 04, 2011, 06:06:42 AM
Maybe this is one of those times where you need to pay less attention? It sounds like you overthinking it. Good advice - as I was doing something similar to RVW #1 yesterday. When I stopped trying to listen and just listened, I enjoyed myself much more (and the music too).

Yes. My own advice to folks about "getting" classical music is: don't anticipate or direct it; just let it happen! That's what I'll do.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on October 04, 2011, 09:19:09 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 04, 2011, 05:55:16 AM
Good advice. I have available to me piano, cello and violin sonatas, piano and string trios. I will revisit these and make an effort not to picture that surly face while I listen!


Here's some not-surly Beethoven portraits (all of them of the young composer, in one case the very young composer).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Thirteen-year-old_Beethoven.jpg/483px-Thirteen-year-old_Beethoven.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Beethoven_Riedel_1801.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Beethoven_Hornemann.jpg/526px-Beethoven_Hornemann.jpg)

(all via Wikipedia)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on October 04, 2011, 01:31:51 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 04, 2011, 02:32:42 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Beethoven_Symphonies_CFP.jpg)

Gave #6 a spin this morning and it was... alright.

Beethoven just doesn't do it for me. I hear a bearish personality in everything he wrote, and I much prefer my music abstract. Is I dumb? Maybe I'm stuck inside an idee fixe?

A cry for help. Help!

I spent most of my adult life thinking that Beethoven was  '... alright', so I have a particular sympathy with your cri de coeur. I even had that very same set of Mackerras symphonies as you have. And everyone says they're excellent - don't they? So you had expectations. But yes, I know, they're  '.... alright'.

Of course the problem is that I don't know whether the reason for your perceived '... alright-ness' is the same as mine was, because we're different animals. But surely there's a fair chance (I tell myself, indulgently) that what you really need is to hear Beethoven riding on a motorbike, instead of driving a family saloon. In which case, if you can, get yourself a listen to Immerseel's period set of Beethoven symphonies and see what you think:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b1PdSylCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

His fifth transformed me from a state of '.... alright', to rocking around the room and punching the air. Exploring the rest of the box was as exciting a ride as classical music has ever given me. I burbled enthusiastically about it here:

The 5th:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg335300.html#msg335300 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg335300.html#msg335300)

6th:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg337657.html#msg337657 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg337657.html#msg337657)

7th:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg340655.html#msg340655 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg340655.html#msg340655)

6th (again) and 3rd:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg340802.html#msg340802 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1954.msg340802.html#msg340802)

You can buy this box for a mere £18 now. Crikey. Well, if I were King of the World, everyone would be given one for free, at birth, as a future life investment. Give it a shot, is my advice.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 05, 2011, 02:16:52 AM
My Beethoven rehabilitation project has begun successfully, if safely, with the string trio in Ef op.3. Lovely stuff.

(http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/0109802618fcf40294ad82cb9553c443/1647929.jpg)

Elgarian: thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 05, 2011, 02:27:08 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 05, 2011, 02:16:52 AM
My Beethoven rehabilitation project has begun successfully, if safely, with the string trio in Ef op.3. Lovely stuff.

(http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/0109802618fcf40294ad82cb9553c443/1647929.jpg)

Elgarian: thanks for the tip!
By the way, you can find Immerseel's Beethoven on youtube if you want to sample it before you buy.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 05, 2011, 02:32:05 PM
LvB on rehab:

(http://www.cdv-records.com/web/product/tiny/leejadan_747.jpg)

Pensive, but still gracile. I dig this.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 05, 2011, 02:35:24 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 05, 2011, 02:27:08 AM
By the way, you can find Immerseel's Beethoven on youtube if you want to sample it before you buy.

Should have it sometime this weekend. Also plunked for some Naxos Beck, Richter and Stamitz pere symphonies. Probably won't buy again till Xmas, so I might have to listen to my back catalogue! Poor me, eh?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on October 06, 2011, 12:24:10 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 05, 2011, 02:35:24 PM
Should have it sometime this weekend.
Hope you find it a good deal better than 'alright'.
Recommendations:
1. Start with the 5th.
2. Warm up your air-punching arm beforehand.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on October 06, 2011, 12:41:41 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 04, 2011, 06:06:42 AM
When I stopped trying to listen and just listened, I enjoyed myself much more (and the music too).

Skimming down through these recent posts several times in the last few days, this has stopped me in my tracks every time. Not only is it reassuring, but it's excellent advice: a reminder to ensure that the right brain is engaging with the listening activity, as well as the left.

I think the reason your comment stands out particularly for me is that I have periods where I decide something like : 'OK, now come on, let's really focus and get to the bottom of this.' And I can guarantee, when I enter one of these phases, that a few days later I'm feeling a bit low, and discovering: 'Oh how crushing! After all these years, I don't know how to listen to music!' And sure enough, I don't: because I've been trying to reduce the business to a purely left brain, 'I will understand' activity. Like Orpheus, hoping to lead Eurydice up from the Underworld, I'm peering too closely down into the gloom to see if she's there, and I lose her.

Tomorrow's Thought For the Day will be about how it's not a good idea to keep taking the bandage off every five minutes to see if the cut is getting better. But for now, back to Beethoven.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 06, 2011, 02:17:18 AM
LvB rehab. #2 in Gm, #4 in C, 1st movement of #3 in A. Haven't listened to these for several years, maybe since I bought them. Just letting it happen. Finding Gurn's delectables now.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Feb05/Beethoven_Brendel_4753792_CC.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 06, 2011, 02:53:33 AM
A query re. the 1st movement of sonata #3 in A, op.69. (By the way, I didn't hear the rest of the piece this morning because I had to leave the car to come in to work.) The main theme, or first subject or whatever, is not just beautiful but very familiar to me. Has it been used elsewhere, in a movie or commercial? Maybe Beethoven himself recycled it in another work?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2011, 04:12:46 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 06, 2011, 02:53:33 AM
A query re. the 1st movement of sonata #3 in A, op.69. (By the way, I didn't hear the rest of the piece this morning because I had to leave the car to come in to work.) The main theme, or first subject or whatever, is not just beautiful but very familiar to me. Has it been used elsewhere, in a movie or commercial? Maybe Beethoven himself recycled it in another work?

Chas,
You did find my soft spot there. I love the cello sonatas, I have way more performances of them than I'll ever need but doesn't bother me a bit. The cello/piano as equal partners was a Beethoven invention, and one that served well for the next 200 years.

I can't answer you question, beyond the last bit; no, I strongly doubt that B himself recycled the theme earlier or later. However, the possibility of its use in a movie or commercial is certainly great. That's what he was doing you know, writing movie music way before its time. What a freakin' visionary.... alright, that last bit was a complete sanitization, of course, but you get what I mean. :D :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 06, 2011, 07:30:57 AM
The Beethoven Cello Sonatas are sublime. My favorite is the A major one, and my favorite recording is the  Yo Yo Ma and Ax account :) when I got to meet Yo Yo Ma some years ago, I had him sign that cello sonata set :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 06, 2011, 09:46:35 AM
Quote from: Leo K on October 06, 2011, 07:30:57 AM
The Beethoven Cello Sonatas are sublime. My favorite is the A major one, and my favorite recording is the  Yo Yo Ma and Ax account :) when I got to meet Yo Yo Ma some years ago, I had him sign that cello sonata set :)

I am listening to these right now by Anner Bylsma and Jos van Immerseel

(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm106535180/beethoven-complete-sonatas-for-pianoforte-violoncello-anner-bylsma-cd-cover-art.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2011, 10:06:00 AM
Quote from: Arnold on October 06, 2011, 09:46:35 AM
I am listening to these right now by Anner Bylsma and Jos van Immerseel

(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm106535180/beethoven-complete-sonatas-for-pianoforte-violoncello-anner-bylsma-cd-cover-art.jpg)

I like that one a lot too, although my favorites are Bylsma with Malcolm Bilson. Not only is Bilson just right for Beethoven, but Bylsma seems to be putting a bit more heart into it on that set. Either way, it's win-win, both are very nice, no need to split hairs. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 07, 2011, 02:21:23 AM
(http://jazzymas.com/oscommerce/images/beethoven.l.v.0028946841129.jpg)

LvB rehab. Piano Trios 1 & 2, op.1. The long largo in #2 is special.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 08, 2011, 04:22:14 AM
LvB rehab. Concentrating on chamber was a good idea.

(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/ae/84/001884ae_medium.jpeg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 08, 2011, 09:07:22 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 26, 2011, 05:33:48 PM
Gabriel! Such a pleasure to have you drop in!

Well, I have been looking at them for quite some time, wondering if I could ever get the entire set without selling off grandchildren. Seems not, and they've hidden the little rascals from me, so I guess it will be Vol. 3 for now... :D

Well, I haven't done, despite knowing about it, and its quality for quite some time. My ability to multitask seems to have diminished with time, so now that I am concentrating on Haydn, only the high points of Mozart come to the fore. Well, lots of those, aren't there? :)

Hope you are well, and will be more conspicuous soon!

Cheers,
8)

Gurn, I'm sure you have already an immense trouble cataloguing Haydn's bariton trios... ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gabriel on October 08, 2011, 09:12:14 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 27, 2011, 06:39:41 AM
Hi Gabriel - nice to see you back & hope all is going well - :)

Concerning the Jadin, I like all of those 3 discs shown before; the string writing is particularly well accomplished for such a young composer and the performances are excellent.

Your comment on the Abert book on Mozart interests me, too - both a reinterpretation, a translation, and an update from a multi-volume book published back in the mid-19th century at Wolfie's centennial - a little of a longer quote below from Amazon; the book is $40 there at the moment - appears that extensive 'updated' notes are made throughout; 1500+ pages!  Dave


Dave, I'm really sorry I can't be connected as often as I used to be. But be sure I keep on exploring Classical music!

Abert's book is one of the old Mozart essentials, together with Wyzewa/Saint Foix (which I don't know if it is available in other language than French). Considering the price, do not hesitate to buy it if you can.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 10:53:28 AM
Quote from: Gabriel on October 08, 2011, 09:07:22 AM
Gurn, I'm sure you have already an immense trouble cataloguing Haydn's bariton trios... ;)

Only the ones in A major... :D

Of all the remarkable things, the Baryton Trios are almost the only part of his oeuvre that is self-cataloging. Lucky me. 0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 08, 2011, 01:35:58 PM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/58/87/2aaa793509a027005e706110.L._AA300_.jpg)

A very nice recording! The highlight is the double horn concerto, which is rather romantic and serious in tone, especially the second movement.

Of course, I got this to add to my 18th Century Clarinet Concerto collection, and find Rosetti's clarinet concerti rather subtle.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 01:46:13 PM
Where would we be without cpo? They deserve to be on the Top 5 labels list of any serious Classical Era listener!

I already knew I was a Rosetti fan (from the Naxos efforts) and so I went all out and got this:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Rosettiwindconcertoscover.jpg)

which contains your disk among a few others. Super listening treat. I'm surprised that Rosetti has kept such a low profile here at the corner, he is such a strong recommendation for people like us! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 01:51:03 PM
Back cover/contents if anyone is interested. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RosettiWindconcertosbackcover.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 08, 2011, 02:25:43 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 08, 2011, 01:51:03 PM
Back cover/contents if anyone is interested. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/RosettiWindconcertosbackcover.jpg)

8)

Right on regarding CPO!

That looks like a fine set Gurn, thanks for the heads up! More double horn concertos too!  :o  ;D


Also, Rosetti's symphonies are a great recommendation. His symphony in F, as heard on this CD:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YL8vCS9jL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

...is one of my favorite symphonies, right up there with Mozart's last three, and Haydn's late symphonies.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 02:31:13 PM
Quote from: Leo K on October 08, 2011, 02:25:43 PM
Right on regarding CPO!

That looks like a fine set Gurn, thanks for the heads up! More double horn concertos too!  :o  ;D


Also, Rosetti's symphonies are a great recommendation. His symphony in F, as heard on this CD:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YL8vCS9jL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

...is one of my favorite symphonies, right up there with Mozart's last three, and Haydn's late symphonies.

Absolutely right! That disk is the sum total of my Rosetti symphonies, not sure what others are out there, but that one is a peach. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 02:40:48 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 08, 2011, 04:22:14 AM
LvB rehab. Concentrating on chamber was a good idea.

(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/ae/84/001884ae_medium.jpeg)

You're most welcome, amigo. We couldn't let you go on, believing the man was a total animal. :D  He was actually just a semi-animal. In truth, the reason I offered that suggestion was because I have seen your particular complaint voiced many times here in the 10 years I have been on board, and it seemed to always be about the orchestral music. Since I am actually Texas Ray, and mainly listen to chamber music, it was a hard idea to relate to, knowing what I knew. I'm very pleased that you are modifying your stance a bit. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 08, 2011, 02:55:19 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 04, 2011, 01:31:51 PMif you can, get yourself a listen to Immerseel's period set of Beethoven symphonies and see what you think:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b1PdSylCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

His fifth transformed me from a state of '.... alright', to rocking around the room and punching the air. Exploring the rest of the box was as exciting a ride as classical music has ever given me.

The chamber stuff hooked me, but I got the box in this afternoon and it reeled me in. Just did the fifth. This is great. Quick and energetic without losing its centre of gravity or falling into mere bombast. Extremely well-recorded. Not a whit of self-conscious this-is-Beethoven-so-make-it-sound-important nonsense. Straight up, enthusiastic music making.

Moved on to the fourth, which I've never liked, and I'm enjoying that too!

The Corner wins the internets!

Much thanks.  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 03:01:16 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 08, 2011, 02:55:19 PM
The chamber stuff hooked me, but I got the box in this afternoon and it reeled me in. Just did the fifth. This is great. Quick and energetic without losing its centre of gravity or falling into mere bombast. Extremely well-recorded. Not a whit of self-conscious this-is-Beethoven-so-make-it-sound-important nonsense. Straight up, enthusiastic music making.

Moved on to the fourth, which I've never liked, and I'm enjoying that too!

The Corner wins the internets!

Much thanks.  ;D

Huzzah! The transparent nature of period instruments cast an entirely different aura at the listener than "old-fashioned" playing does. If somewhere in the back of your mind you have always felt like there was something missing (well, really the opposite isn't it, like there was way too much) in traditional performances, than you owe it to yourself to at least try PI. You'll either love it or hate it, but at least it will be your opinion and not someone else's... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on October 08, 2011, 06:28:53 PM
Received this today, with (inter alia) two other Hummel CDs from the London Mozart Players series on Chandos.   Played this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61L0DnERVoL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
negative--only 50 minutes long.
Other than that, I'm very positive about this recording.  The liner notes suggest that it was written for performance at Esterhaza, although there are no records of any actual performance in Hummel's lifetime, and the only known source is an autograph score in the British Library. 
The libretto is a very compressed version of the entire Exodus story, not just the Passage of the Red Sea as the title would suggest.  Musical is very Haydnesque, but the structure is a bit unusual, in that the solo numbers are usually narrative, and almost all include choral portions.  The pieces which explore inner emotion are actually the choral pieces here, not the arias, as they express (usually with Biblical paraphrases) the emotions of the Israelite slaves as they progress from slavery to freedom.

I'm not sure if the performance is really PI, although the recitatives are accompanied by a fortepiano.

Overall, I can be pretty sure that this CD will be receiving repeated listening.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 08, 2011, 06:45:30 PM
Any recommendations for Mozart's sonatas on the fortepiano?  At this point I'm looking for a single disc, not a full cycle.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on October 09, 2011, 12:52:10 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 08, 2011, 02:55:19 PM
The chamber stuff hooked me, but I got the box in this afternoon and it reeled me in. Just did the fifth. This is great. Quick and energetic without losing its centre of gravity or falling into mere bombast. Extremely well-recorded. Not a whit of self-conscious this-is-Beethoven-so-make-it-sound-important nonsense. Straight up, enthusiastic music making.

Huzzah again! I particularly chuckle at your 'this-is-Beethoven-so-make-it-sound-important' description of the traditional approach. By comparison, this 5th has Captain James T. Immerseel, on the bridge of the newly-built Enterprise, saying, with a glint in his eye: 'Let's see what she's got!'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 09, 2011, 07:07:24 AM
I want to praise this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kvIVE5R5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71e3Y-CE1bL._AA300_.jpg)

I am always deeply moved when I listen to a Kraus symphony...always surprised by his musical turns of phrase. On this recording the symphony in F has an amazing 1st movement, which soars in 3/4 time, and has much drama to boot. Also, the fugal intensity of the one movement "Sinfonia da Chiesa in D" is simply brilliant.

Yay to Naxos!

I have yet to get the Vol.3 disk of Kraus's symphonies on Naxos, I can't believe I've been sitting on this decision all this time!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 07:14:42 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 08, 2011, 06:45:30 PM
Any recommendations for Mozart's sonatas on the fortepiano?  At this point I'm looking for a single disc, not a full cycle.

I assume that you want a sort of sampling so you can get a feel for how they sound on a fortepiano? This single disk is excellent, it might just fill the bill for you;

[asin]B00005AMMH[/asin]

This fellow, Kristian Bezuidenhout, is now in the process of recording a full cycle on a different label, but this was his first disk (as far as I know), and it is very fine. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 07:33:32 AM
Quote from: Leo K on October 09, 2011, 07:07:24 AM
I want to praise this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kvIVE5R5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71e3Y-CE1bL._AA300_.jpg)

I am always deeply moved when I listen to a Kraus symphony...always surprised by his musical turns of phrase. On this recording the symphony in F has an amazing 1st movement, which soars in 3/4 time, and has much drama to boot. Also, the fugal intensity of the one movement "Sinfonia da Chiesa in D" is simply brilliant.

Yay to Naxos!

I have yet to get the Vol.3 disk of Kraus's symphonies on Naxos, I can't believe I've been sitting on this decision all this time!

8)

Heck yea! Kraus (I love this; "The Swedish Mozart" :D ) is splendid. He also write some fine chamber music, I must say. 6 string quartets (mostly available, at least they were a couple years ago), at least 1 piano trio, some violin sonatas, and several works for solo pianoforte. And this one featuring the Schuppanzigh Quartet and Anton Steck;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Krausflute5tetcover.jpg)

One of my favorite Kraus disks is this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/KrausAmphitryoncover.jpg)

and this other gift from Naxos;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/KrausAeneasinCarthagecover.jpg)

The Amphitryon combines my enjoyment for incidental music with my passion for Harmoniemusik.

So, well beyond the wonderful 4 symphony disks from Naxos, there is a bunch of Kraus out there for our listening enjoyment. He's there with Rosetti in the sense of being one of the really good composers that you just don't hear enough about to encourage you chase them down. Worth the effort though. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 09, 2011, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 09, 2011, 07:33:32 AM
Heck yea! Kraus (I love this; "The Swedish Mozart" :D ) is splendid. He also write some fine chamber music, I must say. 6 string quartets (mostly available, at least they were a couple years ago), at least 1 piano trio, some violin sonatas, and several works for solo pianoforte. And this one featuring the Schuppanzigh Quartet and Anton Steck;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Krausflute5tetcover.jpg)

One of my favorite Kraus disks is this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/KrausAmphitryoncover.jpg)

and this other gift from Naxos;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/KrausAeneasinCarthagecover.jpg)

The Amphitryon combines my enjoyment for incidental music with my passion for Harmoniemusik.

So, well beyond the wonderful 4 symphony disks from Naxos, there is a bunch of Kraus out there for our listening enjoyment. He's there with Rosetti in the sense of being one of the really good composers that you just don't hear enough about to encourage you chase them down. Worth the effort though. :)

8)

Gurn, besides the Schuppanzigh Quartet disk, I have the Salagon Quartet disk of Kraus' quartets, an excellant disk! The Schuppanzigh Quartet recording is a new disc I am about to listen to, as well as these recordings that I just picked up some time ago:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411FirQZUBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8kraOleL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Next I want to explore his solo piano music on Naxos...so much to explore  :o  8)


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 08:41:50 AM
Quote from: Leo K on October 09, 2011, 08:29:16 AM
Gurn, besides the Schuppanzigh Quartet disk, I have the Salagon Quartet disk of Kraus' quartets, an excellant disk! The Schuppanzigh Quartet recording is a new disc I am about to listen to, as well as these recordings that I just picked up some time ago:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411FirQZUBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X8kraOleL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Next I want to explore his solo piano music on Naxos...so much to explore  :o  8)

Ah, I could check out the Salagon disk. I have the Lysell Quartet on Musica Sveciae (sic) (4 quartets only) but I would like to get something different.

I have Brautigam playing the complete pianoforte music on BIS. I saw the Naxos disk but had to make a choice. Big Brautigam fan. :)
[asin]B000F6ZIKG[/asin]

That cantata is totally new to me. Looks interesting. Let me know what you think. Now the Lieder with Keyboard. I see Glen Wilson's name on there. I wonder if this is the excellent fortepianist Glen Wilson, or another Glen Wilson that I've never heard of? Be interesting to find out.

Haydn famously called Kraus a genius. He was always generous with praise, of course, but  he didn't toss 'the g word' around lightly. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 09:27:43 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 09, 2011, 07:14:42 AM
I assume that you want a sort of sampling so you can get a feel for how they sound on a fortepiano? This single disk is excellent, it might just fill the bill for you;

[asin]B00005AMMH[/asin]

This fellow, Kristian Bezuidenhout, is now in the process of recording a full cycle on a different label, but this was his first disk (as far as I know), and it is very fine. :)

8)

Well, yes, that and I'm not sure that I'm a big enough Mozart fan to want a full cycle of piano sonatas.  I'm looking for a disc with the 'mature' works, whatever they may be.

I had a feeling you would come through for me!  Let me know what other recommendations you have within this framework.  I may be asking too much given a limited market for HIP, but available for cheap on the Amazon marketplace is always good.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 09, 2011, 09:30:32 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 09, 2011, 08:41:50 AM
Ah, I could check out the Salagon disk. I have the Lysell Quartet on Musica Sveciae (sic) (4 quartets only) but I would like to get something different.

I have Brautigam playing the complete pianoforte music on BIS. I saw the Naxos disk but had to make a choice. Big Brautigam fan. :)
[asin]B000F6ZIKG[/asin]

That cantata is totally new to me. Looks interesting. Let me know what you think. Now the Lieder with Keyboard. I see Glen Wilson's name on there. I wonder if this is the excellent fortepianist Glen Wilson, or another Glen Wilson that I've never heard of? Be interesting to find out.

Haydn famously called Kraus a genius. He was always generous with praise, of course, but  he didn't toss 'the g word' around lightly. :)

8)

Gurn, I believe that is the Glen Wilson that you have heard of  :)

Hmmmm, I forgot Brautigam has a collection of Kraus' solo piano works...I'm a big fan of Brautigam, currently enjoying his Haydn Sonata set, an amazing set in every way!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2011, 12:19:06 PM
Quote from: Leo K on October 09, 2011, 09:30:32 AM
Gurn, I believe that is the Glen Wilson that you have heard of  :)

Hmmmm, I forgot Brautigam has a collection of Kraus' solo piano works...I'm a big fan of Brautigam, currently enjoying his Haydn Sonata set, an amazing set in every way!

Leo - take a look at the Kraus Thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13193.0.html) for an explanation of that piano w/ salad on it!  :D  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 12:58:08 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 09:27:43 AM
Well, yes, that and I'm not sure that I'm a big enough Mozart fan to want a full cycle of piano sonatas.  I'm looking for a disc with the 'mature' works, whatever they may be.

I had a feeling you would come through for me!  Let me know what other recommendations you have within this framework.  I may be asking too much given a limited market for HIP, but available for cheap on the Amazon marketplace is always good.

Sure, when you are approaching someone new to you, it's best to sidle up edgewise and stick your toe in. :)  Well, all the works on this disk are 'mature' works. If that is a rule of thumb for you, it's a good one, but not necessarily applies to all composers. In any case, anything with a K# higher than 200 is not juvenilia any more, since he was a totally mature composer by 15 years old. Here is what's on that disk;

1. Fantasia in C minor, K. 475   
2. Piano Sonata No. 14 in C minor, K. 457
3. Adagio in B minor, K. 540
4. Piano Sonata No. 8 in A minor, K. 310
5. Fantasia in D minor, K. 397

The first 2 go together as a set. He wrote the sonata for one of his more brilliant students in Vienna, and then the Fantasia a few months later "to be used as a prelude when you play your sonata". The pair together are among his finest keyboard works.

The Adagio in b minor is from 1788, just 3 years before his death. Probably written for himself. It is s thing of beauty.

The sonata in a minor has been, for many years, assigned to late in his Paris journey, probably shortly after the death of his mother there. It is the earliest one here, at 1779 or so, but is also the favorite sonata of nearly everyone who offers a choice.

And the Fantasia in d minor, started in 1786 while he was working on "Figaro" left with a few bars at the end unfinished, and completed by an anonymous composer so that the publisher could sell it. It is one of my favorite pieces of his solo piano work.

So this is a good cross-section of mature works, one that will either sell you on Mozart or else fairly put you off forever. I'm betting on the former. And the reason that I'm pushing this one a bit hard is that I don't have any other ideas. There aren't a lot of options out there that don't involve buying a big box of something or other. :D

If you're passing through Nacogdoches sometime, stop in and I'll play you some Mozart. I am one of the finest CD players in the country. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 01:08:34 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 09, 2011, 12:58:08 PM
Sure, when you are approaching someone new to you, it's best to sidle up edgewise and stick your toe in. :)  Well, all the works on this disk are 'mature' works. If that is a rule of thumb for you, it's a good one, but not necessarily applies to all composers. In any case, anything with a K# higher than 200 is not juvenilia any more, since he was a totally mature composer by 15 years old. Here is what's on that disk;

1. Fantasia in C minor, K. 475   
2. Piano Sonata No. 14 in C minor, K. 457
3. Adagio in B minor, K. 540
4. Piano Sonata No. 8 in A minor, K. 310
5. Fantasia in D minor, K. 397

The first 2 go together as a set. He wrote the sonata for one of his more brilliant students in Vienna, and then the Fantasia a few months later "to be used as a prelude when you play your sonata". The pair together are among his finest keyboard works.

The Adagio in b minor is from 1788, just 3 years before his death. Probably written for himself. It is s thing of beauty.

The sonata in a minor has been, for many years, assigned to late in his Paris journey, probably shortly after the death of his mother there. It is the earliest one here, at 1779 or so, but is also the favorite sonata of nearly everyone who offers a choice.

And the Fantasia in d minor, started in 1786 while he was working on "Figaro" left with a few bars at the end unfinished, and completed by an anonymous composer so that the publisher could sell it. It is one of my favorite pieces of his solo piano work.

So this is a good cross-section of mature works, one that will either sell you on Mozart or else fairly put you off forever. I'm betting on the former. And the reason that I'm pushing this one a bit hard is that I don't have any other ideas. There aren't a lot of options out there that don't involve buying a big box of something or other. :D

If you're passing through Nacogdoches sometime, stop in and I'll play you some Mozart. I am one of the finest CD players in the country. :D

8)

Thank you for all the information!  In any case, I do have some previous experience with Mozart, but it's been rather uneven (same with Haydn), so I'm trying to really dig in and find some stuff that will click with me so I can give non-Beethoven classical era material a proper chance.  Among other things, I'm comparing and contrasting HIP and modern recordings (and HIP influenced recordings with modern instruments!)  I've listened to samples of both that disc and the first disc in the cycle (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Keyboard-Sonatas-vol-1/dp/B003064CYQ/ref=pd_bxgy_m_text_b) he started and it's toss up between those two right now.  I like the sound of the instrument better on the second, but I like the pieces better on the first disc, I think.  Decisions, decisions... :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 01:08:34 PM
Thank you for all the information!  In any case, I do have some previous experience with Mozart, but it's been rather uneven (same with Haydn), so I'm trying to really dig in and find some stuff that will click with me so I can give non-Beethoven classical era material a proper chance.  Among other things, I'm comparing and contrasting HIP and modern recordings (and HIP influenced recordings with modern instruments!)  I've listened to samples of both that disc and the first disc in the cycle (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Keyboard-Sonatas-vol-1/dp/B003064CYQ/ref=pd_bxgy_m_text_b) he started and it's toss up between those two right now.  I like the sound of the instrument better on the second, but I like the pieces better on the first disc, I think.  Decisions, decisions... :)

:D  Yeah, know what you mean. Still, if I was going to be doing sampling, I would go for a disk that had some variety to the content. There will come a day in future when, if you want to, you can buy that whole box at one whack. However, my 15 years of experience buying period instrument recordings tells me that when these are gone, they're gone, unless I want to pay $100/disk for them. Unlike modern instrument recordings, it is very rare to have a repackaging/re-release every 2 years. :)

What possible problem could there have been with Haydn?  Try this, it's all you need;

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

This is one of those rare repackagings. $20 well-spent on 3 disks. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 01:27:31 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 09, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
:D  Yeah, know what you mean. Still, if I was going to be doing sampling, I would go for a disk that had some variety to the content. There will come a day in future when, if you want to, you can buy that whole box at one whack. However, my 15 years of experience buying period instrument recordings tells me that when these are gone, they're gone, unless I want to pay $100/disk for them. Unlike modern instrument recordings, it is very rare to have a repackaging/re-release every 2 years. :)

What possible problem could there have been with Haydn?  Try this, it's all you need;

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

This is one of those rare repackagings. $20 well-spent on 3 disks. :)

8)
And for a modern piano, I'd choose something like the below (I'm not always a fan of Ax, but he is excellent here):
[asin]B00008WT4W[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 01:33:45 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 01:27:31 PM
And for a modern piano, I'd choose something like the below (I'm not always a fan of Ax, but he is excellent here):
[asin]B00008WT4W[/asin]

Yup, I agree with that. I have this Ax Haydn;

[asin]B00000293M[/asin]

and in fact it was my first Haydn keyboard disk. Things sort of took off from there... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 02:54:03 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 09, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
:D  Yeah, know what you mean. Still, if I was going to be doing sampling, I would go for a disk that had some variety to the content. There will come a day in future when, if you want to, you can buy that whole box at one whack. However, my 15 years of experience buying period instrument recordings tells me that when these are gone, they're gone, unless I want to pay $100/disk for them. Unlike modern instrument recordings, it is very rare to have a repackaging/re-release every 2 years. :)

What possible problem could there have been with Haydn?  Try this, it's all you need;

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

This is one of those rare repackagings. $20 well-spent on 3 disks. :)

8)

You raise a good point!  All of those individual volumes will probably eventually be available in a larger box if I want them.  The one-offs will likely not.  In any case, I chose the Sturm und Drang disc.

As for Haydn:  I've had the same problem with him in the past that I have with other classical era (Beethoven excepted) and baroque composers and, for that matter, Mendelssohn.  Beautiful music, but it didn't provide the emotional sustenance necessary to keep me interested.  That said, now that I'm out of the Sturm und Drang days of my teenage years and early twenties (Forgive the pun!) I decided I want to revisit these composers and see if I may enjoy having less drama in my music.  I feel that if worst comes to worst I'll simply gain a new lens through which to view Beethoven and Brahms and look to these eras again in the future.

That said, I do have some Haydn on hand:  I just ordered the first set of Colin Davis' London symphonies (what can I say?  It was cheap!) and I already own a disc of Baryton trios (period instrument recording), string quartets, and...a fourteen disc box set of his complete works for solo keyboard on period instruments. (It was on sale for a very low price a few years back.)

In any case, this brings up another question:  Does anyone have recommendations for period recordings of Mozart's or Haydn's late symphonies?  Mozart in particular; I'd like something to supplement my Bohm recording with.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 04:14:02 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 02:54:03 PM
You raise a good point!  All of those individual volumes will probably eventually be available in a larger box if I want them.  The one-offs will likely not.  In any case, I chose the Sturm und Drang disc.

As for Haydn:  I've had the same problem with him in the past that I have with other classical era (Beethoven excepted) and baroque composers and, for that matter, Mendelssohn.  Beautiful music, but it didn't provide the emotional sustenance necessary to keep me interested.  That said, now that I'm out of the Sturm und Drang days of my teenage years and early twenties (Forgive the pun!) I decided I want to revisit these composers and see if I may enjoy having less drama in my music.  I feel that if worst comes to worst I'll simply gain a new lens through which to view Beethoven and Brahms and look to these eras again in the future.

That said, I do have some Haydn on hand:  I just ordered the first set of Colin Davis' London symphonies (what can I say?  It was cheap!) and I already own a disc of Baryton trios (period instrument recording), string quartets, and...a fourteen disc box set of his complete works for solo keyboard on period instruments. (It was on sale for a very low price a few years back.)

In any case, this brings up another question:  Does anyone have recommendations for period recordings of Mozart's or Haydn's late symphonies?  Mozart in particular; I'd like something to supplement my Bohm recording with.

Well, your problem with Classical Era music is a not uncommon one. The intention of the composers in that time was not to move you emotionally (except possibly CPE Bach and his adherents in the Empfindsam movement), it was rather more to entertain you. Music was of 3 types then; sacred music, opera and instrumental. Instrumental was the lowest on the totem pole by far, and was in fact held in lowest regard, and one of the main reasons is that it existed solely as entertainment (bad, bad music! :D ). The concept of toying with the emotions of the listener is purely Romantic. Mendelssohn, BTW, is a Romantic by chronology only. Much of his music is recognizably Classical.  IMO, when you read about great gouts of emotion affecting this or that listener while listening to Mozart, I can almost certainly assure you that it is strictly the listener applying his/her own feelings to the music, it is not Mozart trying to elicit those feelings from them (outside of opera, of course, which is an entirely different proposition).

You could very well enjoy the Colin Davis London's. But if you don't, don't give up on Haydn, try something different. I think a good rec for someone trying to get into Haydn by that route is the currently available Minkowski set, 4 disks for $25, very nicely done.
[asin]B0036FOV4W[/asin]

Finally, a nice place to start with Haydn is the late piano trios. Here is a very nice introductory disk, eminently affordable and worth double:

[asin]B0000028UD[/asin]

As for Mozart PI symphonies, I need to leave that for someone else. All I have is this one, which is all I need and more than you are looking for, I think;

[asin]B000004CYS[/asin]

I have heard good things (and bad things) about the Pinnock set. Here is somewhere that I would even consider deviating from my PI ways. I have this set which is, to me, the best MI set in town;

[asin]B001FWRYVA[/asin]

It is a 10 disk set now available for $25, and IMO, Mozart the way it should be played, even on modern instruments!!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 05:10:06 PM
Again, thanks for the recommendations, Gurn.  Mackerras is a good example of what I was thinking of when I referred to HIP-influenced recordings with modern instruments.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 09, 2011, 05:12:15 PM
QuoteDoes anyone have recommendations for period recordings of Mozart's or Haydn's late symphonies?  Mozart in particular

Pinnock has recorded all the symphonies by Mozart (his set is not as complete as Hogwood's but has what most people think of as Mozart's symphonies) at about half the price of Hogwood.  Taste's differ, but his set is generally well thought of.

[asin]B000069KJ3[/asin]

Rene Jacobs has recorded most of the late symphonies.  He has made quite a good impression with the operas, and his symphony series is highly praised as well:

[asin]B003122HD2[/asin]

[asin]B000L421NY[/asin]

And then there's the Naxos box, which is on MI but done with HIP practice (I linked to Amazon, but ClassicsOnline has this same item priced much cheaper):

[asin]B0001FYRAS[/asin]

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 05:31:44 PM
Good solid rec's all, Arnold. I haven't heard the Naxos ones, but other disks I have by those orchestras are all very well played.  I particularly like the Jacobs disks. I might throw Minkowski's into the mix here too:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MozartMinkowskicover.jpg)

Not really sure if Geo is looking for a set, a single, early, late or in between. There are lots and lots of singles, especially #40 & 41 that are very well done. But when you move outside of that zone, the field narrows considerably.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 05:40:26 PM
A set of late symphonies (akin to Bohm's, for example) would be nice, but I won't object too much to putting a full set of symphonies on the wish list if they're at a reasonable price.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 05:47:52 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 05:40:26 PM
A set of late symphonies (akin to Bohm's, for example) would be nice, but I won't object too much to putting a full set of symphonies on the wish list if they're at a reasonable price.

Well, that narrows it down considerably! At the very least you can get the last 4 in good order:

PI - Jacobs

MI -
[asin]B0011J2R0K[/asin] (2 disks)
[asin]B003153ZEE[/asin] (2 more disks)

I have no reservations bout rec'cing any of these disks. I have already invested in them myself with no regrets. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 07:56:12 PM
Thanks for the recommendation.  Given the excellent price on the Mackerras full set I decided to pull the trigger on that. (It cost the same as the price of the two late works Mackerras sets together!)   I'll definitely look into the Jacobs recordings.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 09:34:06 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 07:56:12 PM
Thanks for the recommendation.  Given the excellent price on the Mackerras full set I decided to pull the trigger on that. (It cost the same as the price of the two late works Mackerras sets together!)   
The Mackerras is very good. And so are the Haydn London symphonies by Davis. I think you will have no regrets.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on October 10, 2011, 12:57:49 AM
Just a few personal thoughts:

1. Pinnock's box of Mozart symphonies put me to sleep for a few years: their 'politeness' significantly delayed my appreciation of HIP classical music. When, much later, I bought his box of Sturm & Drang Haydn symphonies, I did so kicking and screaming, expecting more of the same. What a shock. Not at all! It may be, of course, that my response to the performances is coloured by a personal preference for Haydn's symphonies over Mozart's (as I'm coming to suspect), but even so the difference in attitude seems very marked.

2. I bought the Colin Davis London symphonies simply because they're so highly recommended by everyone. Waste of money, for me. Big, cloudy, smoothed-out modern approach: good of their type, I'm sure, but offering too much of what I don't want in performance of music of this period.

3. Minkowski's London symphonies (recommended above by Gurn), by contrast, represent pretty much everything I do want. Full of life and wit. Not polite, yet still delicate.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 01:48:33 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 10, 2011, 12:57:49 AM
Just a few personal thoughts:

1. Pinnock's box of Mozart symphonies put me to sleep for a few years: their 'politeness' significantly delayed my appreciation of HIP classical music. When, much later, I bought his box of Sturm & Drang Haydn symphonies, I did so kicking and screaming, expecting more of the same. What a shock. Not at all! It may be, of course, that my response to the performances is coloured by a personal preference for Haydn's symphonies over Mozart's (as I'm coming to suspect), but even so the difference in attitude seems very marked.

2. I bought the Colin Davis London symphonies simply because they're so highly recommended by everyone. Waste of money, for me. Big, cloudy, smoothed-out modern approach: good of their type, I'm sure, but offering too much of what I don't want in performance of music of this period.

3. Minkowski's London symphonies (recommended above by Gurn), by contrast, represent pretty much everything I do want. Full of life and wit. Not polite, yet still delicate.
I like Davis' Haydn for precisely the reason Minkowski drives me a bit crazy on the clips from youtube, and I like the bombast that Davis brings. See, cloudy is not how I would classify Davis (the word doesn't even occur to me as I listen). It's just big band style and not the pared down version Minkowski and some others bring. Rather, I'd say Minkowski is too spare or severe (or restrained), though I don't dislike Minkowski (he clearly has something to say).  I doubt you would use those words to describe it. This is one area where being a neophyte is so confusing (at least it was when I was figuring out what I wanted to hear). I'm using the drumroll (103) symphony if you are curious what I am comparing.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2011, 04:23:22 AM
Well, this has gone swimmingly. I should sleep more often. :D

I haven't heard Davis' London's, which was why I was so non-committal. However, when it comes to Haydn I don't care generally for "Big Band", so my personal preference would be to steer clear. If big band doesn't bug you, then I think they are worth a shot. Clearly Alan and I are on the same page vis-a-vis our Haydn preferences. 'Spare' works well for me, transparent does too. I particularly like the works that lean on percussion, they play those very well. 'Military' is my favorite London symphony anyway, and the drumming is memorably done there.

Politeness is what kills Haydn. And most Mozart too. That's where their undeserved reputations as salon composers came from. When played properly, they could visit MY salon any time. :)

Ultimately, performance is what makes or breaks any composer. The reason that I am such a big period fan is that I feel that a Romantic era orchestra, no matter how well they play, will turn a work composed for an orchestra 1/3 their size into a bowl of mush. No matter the good intentions. That is, however, only my opinion. I may be wrong. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on October 10, 2011, 05:00:24 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 01:48:33 AM
I like the bombast that Davis brings. See, cloudy is not how I would classify Davis (the word doesn't even occur to me as I listen). It's just big band style ...

The 'bombast' that Davis brings ... yes, that's what troubles me. The 'bombast', as I respond to it, is coming primarily from him and his big orchestra, rather than from Haydn. But I wonder if we're meaning the same thing by it - it's often hard to find the right words to describe these impressions. I suspect that what you call 'big band' may be (inevitably) what I call 'cloudy', even though it's not the word you'd have used. I'm referring to the effect of the large body of instruments that smears everything together, when I want to hear them articulated distinctly (particularly noticeable in strings). Like Gurn's 'bowl of mush': that's better than my 'cloudy'.

And for Minkowski, yes, 'spare', is close to what I'm after, but not, I think 'severe'; Gurn's 'transparent' is a good fit.

I have to say also that I'm not talking here about what ought, or ought not, to be done for historical accuracy's sake. I haven't a clue about that. My response is purely subjective: the one turns me off; the other turns me on. I've nothing to say on the rights and wrongs.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 05:35:45 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 10, 2011, 05:00:24 AM
The 'bombast' that Davis brings ... yes, that's what troubles me. The 'bombast', as I respond to it, is coming primarily from him and his big orchestra, rather than from Haydn. But I wonder if we're meaning the same thing by it - it's often hard to find the right words to describe these impressions. I suspect that what you call 'big band' may be (inevitably) what I call 'cloudy', even though it's not the word you'd have used. I'm referring to the effect of the large body of instruments that smears everything together, when I want to hear them articulated distinctly (particularly noticeable in strings). Like Gurn's 'bowl of mush': that's better than my 'cloudy'.

And for Minkowski, yes, 'spare', is close to what I'm after, but not, I think 'severe'; Gurn's 'transparent' is a good fit.

I have to say also that I'm not talking here about what ought, or ought not, to be done for historical accuracy's sake. I haven't a clue about that. My response is purely subjective: the one turns me off; the other turns me on. I've nothing to say on the rights and wrongs.
The use of words around this subject is fascinating. Big band and cloudy do not go hand in hand for me. I think Davis is heavier (perhaps weightier), which is what I think you are responding to (but even here, I find Davis fairly fleet when he wants to be). Interestingly, I think Davis VERY transparent. I hear absolutely everything. You can hear all the parts. 


Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 10, 2011, 04:23:22 AM
Politeness is what kills Haydn. And most Mozart too. That's where their undeserved reputations as salon composers came from. When played properly, they could visit MY salon any time. :)

Ultimately, performance is what makes or breaks any composer. The reason that I am such a big period fan is that I feel that a Romantic era orchestra, no matter how well they play, will turn a work composed for an orchestra 1/3 their size into a bowl of mush. No matter the good intentions. That is, however, only my opinion. I may be wrong. :)

8)
Politeness will kill any composer. And while I prefer certain sounds or approaches, committed playing will always trump non-commited playing (or middle of the road/wishy-washy playing), regardless of what instruments they play or what approach they take. I just don't think a modern orchestra automatically means a lack of clarity / transparency or mushiness. I've eaten mush - and I don't like it! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on October 10, 2011, 06:26:41 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 05:35:45 AM
The use of words around this subject is fascinating. Big band and cloudy do not go hand in hand for me. I think Davis is heavier (perhaps weightier), which is what I think you are responding to (but even here, I find Davis fairly fleet when he wants to be). Interestingly, I think Davis VERY transparent. I hear absolutely everything. You can hear all the parts.

Following what you said, I've been listening to the Drumroll (first by Minkowski, then by Davis) while I was having my lunch, and came back to this chat with a clear confirmation of what I know I like, but no particularly clearer knowledge of how to describe it. It may be that the differences in 'transparency' we're speaking of are illusory - so that when I describe Minkowski's as 'transparent', perhaps I only feel that I'm hearing more detail. The crispiness and crunchiness of a Chunky Kitkat don't add extra detail to the taste, compared with a Mars Bar. They just make it crispier and crunchier, and one either likes it, or doesn't.

Illusion or not, listening this lunchtime I find the Davis, for me, seems to put a smeary veil over everything in the background, so that individual instruments seem highlighted against a sort of wall of sound. The varieties of texture in the background seem evened out, so that it feels softer and less exciting than the Minkowski. And 'exciting' is the word for me here, rather than 'bombastic'. The Davis doesn't seem bombastic - just heavier, and smoother. Slightly Phil Spector-ish as opposed to Beatles-first-album-ish. (Now there's a futile blind alley for us to stumble helplessly into!)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 11, 2011, 02:23:28 AM
This is very good indeed.

[asin]B003IP2Y4O[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 11, 2011, 02:51:15 AM
Just experimemting with this amazon image number thingy.

[asin]B0009SQC7I[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 11, 2011, 02:52:21 AM
Well, shave my head and call me curly. It works!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 11, 2011, 03:11:40 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 11, 2011, 02:23:28 AM
This is very good indeed.

[asin]B003IP2Y4O[/asin]
Lethe recommended Beck many months ago, though I think on the main listening thread. I think she liked the CPO recordings too.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 11, 2011, 03:30:22 AM
Does it work for amazon.ca too?

[asin]B00006O8P2[/asin]

EDIT: Yes! though the link is still to .com. Must be the same ID number. OK, I'm through messin' about.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 11, 2011, 04:57:29 AM
Listening to Mallon has reminded me of this little number from the back catalogue, which I remember nothing about. Must give it a go.

[asin]B0008JEKCC[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 12, 2011, 03:00:42 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 11, 2011, 03:11:40 AM
Lethe recommended Beck many months ago, though I think on the main listening thread. I think she liked the CPO recordings too.

As energetic as CPE Bach, but more tuneful and at times quite nutty. The opener of #4 almost sounds like a parody! I imagine the musicians laughing right through it. Cool.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 12, 2011, 04:58:33 AM
Been mucking about in this thread's murky depths. Here's a very nice thumbnail description of classical era music. Deserves repeating.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 04, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
The rather more dense polyphony of Baroque music, the long melodic line of Romantic music, the intellectual brilliance of modern music all have a strong attraction. The simplicity, squareness, lightness and elegance of classical music (I leave off the quotes here, we all know what I mean by now :) ) don't reach out and grab the vast majority of people in the same way. And yet, these exact things are what were considered to be the strong points of the music in its own time. Symmetry and transparency were the goals. The beauty lies in setting up (preparing) the modulations, not in letting you into the emotional world of the composer. The drama comes from delaying a return to the tonic key by taking a little trip through the dominant minor when you didn't expect that at all, not in leaving for some remote area in the Circle of Fifths and not coming back at all! When Mozart exposes a theme in Eine kleine Nachtmusik, you know he is going to develop it and then recapitulate it, and the whole thing is going to sound as though he couldn't possibly have written it any other way. And this rightness and inevitability is the source of the attraction of classical music. If you listen to enough of it, you, too, will be "hooked" on it. There is no bombast, but there is infinite intricacy and subtlety. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: karlhenning on October 12, 2011, 05:06:45 AM
Tempora mutantur, of course . . . but the clean lines of the High Classical certainly possess their own native attraction.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2011, 05:09:43 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 12, 2011, 04:58:33 AM
Been mucking about in this thread's murky depths. Here's a very nice thumbnail description of classical era music. Deserves repeating.

Thanks for dredging that up, chas. I was feeling quite poetic the day I wrote that. I better be careful now, I'll even have ME listening to Classical music... oh, wait... :-\   :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 12, 2011, 05:06:45 AM
Tempora mutantur, of course . . . but the clean lines of the High Classical certainly possess their own native attraction.

Tastes change, taste doesn't. :)  Even people who prefer other sorts of music usually can admit to the simple beauty of High Classical. 0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 13, 2011, 01:44:25 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 12, 2011, 04:58:33 AM
Been mucking about in this thread's murky depths. Here's a very nice thumbnail description of classical era music. Deserves repeating.


That is fantastic to read again! This is a quote I often remember :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 13, 2011, 04:34:03 PM
Well, just received a BRO package which included several Tactus CDs, an Italian company that I enjoy:

Merci, Luigi (c. 1695-c. 1750) - Flute Sonatas - YES, in that earlier transitional period between Baroque & Classical music, which I find one of my favorite eras to explore, so much changing!  An Italian who ended up in London (like so many others from the continent, like Handel of the same time period), and known there as Lewis Mercy - apparently an outstanding performer on the recorder who had to adapt to the 'newer' trends in music at the times.  This is my first experience w/ this composer, and not sure 'what else' is available?

But this is a fine disc w/ Sergio Balestracci on the 'Flauto diritto' - I assume kind of a cross between the recorder & flute; liner notes state a copy of an instrument after Thomas Stanesby (London, 1725/30); 'Fagotto' copy from early 18th century played by Paolo Tognon; and harpsichord performed by Roberto Loreggian - love this STUFF!  Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-SPfqL8s/0/O/MerciFluteBalestracci.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2011, 04:45:37 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 13, 2011, 04:34:03 PM
Well, just received a BRO package which included several Tactus CDs, an Italian company that I enjoy:

Merci, Luigi (c. 1695-c. 1750) - Flute Sonatas - YES, in that earlier transitional period between Baroque & Classical music, which I find one of my favorite eras to explore, so much changing!  An Italian who ended up in London (like so many others from the continent, like Handel of the same time period), and known there as Lewis Mercy - apparently an outstanding performer on the recorder who had to adapt to the 'newer' trends in music at the times.  This is my first experience w/ this composer, and not sure 'what else' is available?

But this is a fine disc w/ Sergio Balestracci on the 'Flauto diritto' - I assume kind of a cross between the recorder & flute; liner notes state a copy of an instrument after Thomas Stanesby (London, 1725/30); 'Fagotto' copy from early 18th century played by Paolo Tognon; and harpsichord performed by Roberto Loreggian - love this STUFF!  Dave  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-SPfqL8s/0/O/MerciFluteBalestracci.jpg)

Hey, Dave, somewhere back in the mists of the past, in this very thread, one of our denizens posted that disk and we put in quite a bit of info; IIRC, I posted his Grove entry. You might dig that up for further info. He looked awfully interesting to me at the time, but I haven't acted upon it yet...

I have, however, got a disk featuring Robert Loreggian as recently as last weekend;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnHob14cover.jpg)

This disk features the rarely-recorded-on-period-instruments complete keyboard quartets of Hob 14. They are for Cembalo, 2 violins and Baßo. The only other version I have seen was by Ton Koopman, and I must say, I like these better, not least because of Loreggian's lively harpsichording. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Gamerith Consort - Hob 15_22 Trio in Eb for Fortepiano, Violin & Cello 3rd mvmt -  Finale: Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 13, 2011, 05:05:59 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 13, 2011, 04:45:37 PM
Hey, Dave, somewhere back in the mists of the past, in this very thread, one of our denizens posted that disk and we put in quite a bit of info; IIRC, I posted his Grove entry. You might dig that up for further info. He looked awfully interesting to me at the time, but I haven't acted upon it yet...

Gurn - you're RIGHT!  :-[  I posted on this guy back in April of this year and acquired two discs, one of which I bought again!  OH GOD - I'm getting old!  Just checked my database and saw the 2 entries 'written in' so did not notice (guess I usually just look at those printed listings) - well, I must have enjoyed this composer - for those interested in Merci, do a search on this thread - plenty of info already available - Dave  ;) ;D   P.S. at least the CD was cheap!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2011, 06:05:51 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 13, 2011, 05:05:59 PM
Gurn - you're RIGHT!  :-[  I posted on this guy back in April of this year and acquired two discs, one of which I bought again!  OH GOD - I'm getting old!  Just checked my database and saw the 2 entries 'written in' so did not notice (guess I usually just look at those printed listings) - well, I must have enjoyed this composer - for those interested in Merci, do a search on this thread - plenty of info already available - Dave  ;) ;D   P.S. at least the CD was cheap!

:D :D  I was gonna say "I thought it was you that posted it" but I figured nah, can't be...  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 13, 2011, 07:32:51 PM
Since I mentioned my Mozart issues earlier, let me give a short update:

This disc has really clicked with me, from the first listen: 
[asin]B0007KTAXQ[/asin]

This one, unfortunately, leaves me cold: 
[asin]B0009JAENU[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2011, 04:15:43 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 13, 2011, 07:32:51 PM
Since I mentioned my Mozart issues earlier, let me give a short update:

This disc has really clicked with me, from the first listen: 
[asin]B0007KTAXQ[/asin]

This one, unfortunately, leaves me cold: 
[asin]B0009JAENU[/asin]

I've heard good things about that Uchida/Steinberg disk so I guess I'm not surprised. It seemed for a long time that I was isolated in my Uchida appreciation, but now I see a lot more folks on the bandwagon. Steinberg is new to me, guess I'll have to try that disk out and hear him. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 14, 2011, 04:20:55 AM
Right, so here are the composers, born 1700-80, who are represented in my collection. Who am I missing what shouldn't be missed?

Avison, Richter, Pergolesi, WF Bach, Boyce, CPE Bach, Stamitz pere, Giardini, Hartmann, Haydn, Beck, Gossec, JC Bach, Albrechtsberger, Haydn frere, Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Zimmerman, Rigel, Pichl, Tomasini, Gretry, Titz, Boccherini, Brunetti, Bengraf, Boulogne, Stamitz fils, Lombardini-Sirmen, Druschetsky, Canales, Forster, Shield, Rosetti, Teixidor, Reichardt, Hoffmeister, Viotti, Mozart, Kraus, Grill, Pleyel, Rolla, Krommer, Zmeskall, Dussek, Cherubini, Danzi, Ryba, Eybler, Romberg, Spech, Lickl, Beethoven, Wolfl, Crusell, H Jadin, Hummel.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 14, 2011, 06:01:56 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 14, 2011, 04:15:43 AM
I've heard good things about that Uchida/Steinberg disk so I guess I'm not surprised. It seemed for a long time that I was isolated in my Uchida appreciation, but now I see a lot more folks on the bandwagon. Steinberg is new to me, guess I'll have to try that disk out and hear him. :)

8)

One of the things that impressed me about the disc was Uchida's playing.  Do you recommend her cycle of sonatas or any individuals recordings?  She seems like a Mozartian pianist I could really get into.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2011, 07:39:15 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 14, 2011, 06:01:56 AM
One of the things that impressed me about the disc was Uchida's playing.  Do you recommend her cycle of sonatas or any individuals recordings?  She seems like a Mozartian pianist I could really get into.

Well, I listen to very little modern piano, but I have her's and Eschenbach's, also Walter Kiien's. I would rate them Uchida, Klien, Eschenbach. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 14, 2011, 08:02:30 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 14, 2011, 04:20:55 AM
Right, so here are the composers, born 1700-80, who are represented in my collection. Who am I missing what shouldn't be missed?

Avison, Richter, Pergolesi, WF Bach, Boyce, CPE Bach, Stamitz pere, Giardini, Hartmann, Haydn, Beck, Gossec, JC Bach, Albrechtsberger, Haydn frere, Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Zimmerman, Rigel, Pichl, Tomasini, Gretry, Titz, Boccherini, Brunetti, Bengraf, Boulogne, Stamitz fils, Lombardini-Sirmen, Druschetsky, Canales, Forster, Shield, Rosetti, Teixidor, Reichardt, Hoffmeister, Viotti, Mozart, Kraus, Grill, Pleyel, Rolla, Krommer, Zmeskall, Dussek, Cherubini, Danzi, Ryba, Eybler, Romberg, Spech, Lickl, Beethoven, Wolfl, Crusell, H Jadin, Hummel.
Err, could you help a fellow GMGer out and alphabetize them or something?

However, here are a few discs worth persuing (that I didn't see on your list - apologies if I missed them):

Baguer (1768-1808)
[asin]B000000AZ4[/asin]

Paul Vranicky (Wranitzky) (1756-1808)
[asin]B000F0H3QE[/asin]

Christian Cannabich (1731-1798)
[asin]B00002R2TH[/asin]

Leopold Kozeluch (1747-1818)
[asin]B000001RZC[/asin]

Josef Myslivecek (1737–1781)
[asin]B000JFZ9FC[/asin]

Probably lots more. Do you have a particular interest - symphonic, chamber, etc? If you search further, there are usually at least several more discs to pursue for each composer.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 14, 2011, 08:05:54 AM
Here is a list of composers - you may find it helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Classical_era_composers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Classical_era_composers)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 14, 2011, 08:19:47 AM
Another new arrival & my first disc of this classical-romantic composer, depending on the dates & styles chosen:

Kalkbrenner, Friedrich (1785-1849) - Solo Piano Music w/ Michael Krücker on a restored Pleyel fortepiano (1836; restoration by Frits Janmaat, Amsterdam); German born pianist, composer, teacher, and piano manufacturer (in the Pleyel company) who spent most of his life in France and England.  Kalkbrenner was considered one of the foremost pianists of his time (and rated at the top by many, including one of his friends, Chopin - both dying in the same year) - much more information in this Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Kalkbrenner).  He was a prolific composer w/ much solo piano works, 4 piano concertos, piano trios & other chamber works to mention his most substantial output - his compositions are listed HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Friedrich_Kalkbrenner); not much recorded at least on Amazon USA (2 piano concertos available on Hyperion).

The fortepiano in this recording is recorded in great form w/ a wide variety of works dating from 1819 to 1841; found an interesting review on Amazon UK HERE (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Friedrich-Kalkbrenner-Werke-Fur-Klavier-Solo/dp/B00005B3H2), in which one of the works present on the disc, i.e. Grande Sonate, Op. 28 is claimed to be the Piano Sonata, Op. 48; the reviewer is a pianist who has played Kalkbrenner's piano works, but this is my first exposure, so cannot comment - any others know?  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pKbpvv6/0/O/KalkbrennerKrucker.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 14, 2011, 08:43:27 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 14, 2011, 08:02:30 AM
Err, could you help a fellow GMGer out and alphabetize them or something?

Do you have a particular interest - symphonic, chamber, etc? If you search further, there are usually at least several more discs to pursue for each composer.

Actually, I listed them in chronological order by birth date. Not that that's helpful, I just did.  :D

My first interest is string chamber, followed by symphonies. What I know best are string quartets. (See here: http://thesavagebreast.blogspot.com/ (http://thesavagebreast.blogspot.com/)) I'm least interested in keyboard works. Of the composers you list, Kozeluch and Vranicky are represented in the "Contemporaries of Mozart Collection" box, which is at the top of my wish list. Cannabich and Myslivecek certainly interest me. I might have some of each of them in the Baroque Bohemia and Beyond set - don't recall offhand. Baguer I've never heard of, but if he's part of that Chandos series, he interests me too. (Is there any volume in that series that's not worth the bother?)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 14, 2011, 11:49:51 AM
A new find! I love what I'm hearing from this composer:

Gaetano Pugnani (27 November 1731 – 15 July 1798)

On this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71lnRVcg5hL._AA300_.jpg)

Each Overture is more or less a symphony, in four movements each, with very engaging melodic phrases and interesting modulation and dynamics.

Great stuff!  ;D

Wiki stuff:
QuoteGaetano Pugnani (27 November 1731 – 15 July 1798, full name: Giulio Gaetano Gerolamo Pugnani) was born in Turin. He trained on the violin under Giovanni Battista Somis and Giuseppe Tartini. In 1752, Pugnani became the first violinist of the Royal Chapel in Turin. Then he went on a large tour that granted him great fame for his extraordinary skill on the violin. In 1754, he was very well received at the Concert Spirituel in Paris, but in 1768 he had an even more successful musical encounter in London, directing the King's Theatre from 1767 to 1769.

In 1770, Pugnani returned home to Turin and became the director of the Royal Chapel. His fame as a composer began to grow, but it would never equal his fame as a violinist. During this time, he also taught the violin. His most famous pupil was Giovanni Battista Viotti; from 1780 to 1782 they performed in Switzerland, Dresden, Warsaw and St. Petersburg. Pugnani died in Turin.

Fritz Kreisler borrowed Pugnani's name in order to publish some of his pieces (such as Praeludium and Allegro and Tempo di Minuetto), but in 1935 Kreisler revealed that these works were actually his own.


8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 14, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 14, 2011, 08:43:27 AM
Actually, I listed them in chronological order by birth date. Not that that's helpful, I just did.  :D

My first interest is string chamber, followed by symphonies. What I know best are string quartets. (See here: http://thesavagebreast.blogspot.com/ (http://thesavagebreast.blogspot.com/)) I'm least interested in keyboard works. Of the composers you list, Kozeluch and Vranicky are represented in the "Contemporaries of Mozart Collection" box, which is at the top of my wish list. Cannabich and Myslivecek certainly interest me. I might have some of each of them in the Baroque Bohemia and Beyond set - don't recall offhand. Baguer I've never heard of, but if he's part of that Chandos series, he interests me too. (Is there any volume in that series that's not worth the bother?)
Pretty much everything in the COM series is very good or better. No hestitations there. Of the discs I posted, I particularly like the Myslivecek. He and Cannabich also have chamber works you may like. I am not familar with the Baroque and Beyond disc, but I imagine they have some Myslivecek at a minimum (he has a whole range of works). Baguer, is part of that COM series, and seems to have been influenced by Haydn to a fair degree. 

Another composer you may like is Anton Reicha (1770-1836) - he has quite a range of works that are very good, but there is also a series of Wind Quintets that may be of interest. You may like Josef Reicha as well (cello concertos).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2011, 12:10:30 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 14, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Pretty much everything in the COM series is very good or better. No hestitations there. Of the discs I posted, I particularly like the Myslivecek. He and Cannabich also have chamber works you may like. I am not familar with the Baroque and Beyond disc, but I imagine they have some Myslivecek at a minimum (he has a whole range of works). Baguer, is part of that COM series, and seems to have been influenced by Haydn to a fair degree. 

Another composer you may like is Anton Reicha (1770-1836) - he has quite a range of works that are very good, but there is also a series of Wind Quintets that may be of interest. You may like Josef Reicha as well (cello concertos).

Myslivecek is certainly worth pursuing. I'll post a couple of disks when I get home tonight, although that Concerto Koln is as good as any to start with. I have 5 disks of the "Bohemia" series, I think he is represented on at least 2 of them, if not more.

Baguer is Spanish. A devotee of Haydn. I like that Chandos disk of his (of course).

Reicha is the cream of the crop, depending how you like winds or not. He is the best musician of the bunch, IMO. You really must try a disk of his wind quintets. The Naxos ones are more than adequate.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 14, 2011, 01:10:21 PM
So I'll take a good look at all the COM numbers and Reicha. Good advices. Thanks both.

Another place to look is on my own shelves: I have all 5 of the Bohemia discs and don't remember what's on them!

So much to hear and so little time!

(Right now I'm luxuriating with this:)

[asin]B003GY3S2Y[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 17, 2011, 06:09:15 AM
A terrific listen during this morning's drive in:

[asin]B0006OPWBW[/asin]

Ah, the amazon thingy isn't working. I'm talkin' Georg Lickl's string 4s by the Authentics on Hungaroton. Maybe I can find another pic.

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm000/m066/m06676u6566.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 17, 2011, 06:23:54 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 17, 2011, 06:09:15 AM
A terrific listen during this morning's drive in:

Ah, the amazon thingy isn't working. I'm talkin' Georg Lickl's string 4s by the Authentics on Hungaroton. Maybe I can find another pic.

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm000/m066/m06676u6566.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/LicklSQsAuthentic/860507256_EUoJp-O.jpg)

Here ya go - I own that disc (scanned and stored on my photo sharing site) - we may have discussed it earlier in this or other threads?  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 17, 2011, 06:31:02 AM
Yes, I think it's been mentioned here before, but I was particularly impressed with it this time around. While I'm quite happy to hear merely pleasant music in this format and style - Sirmen, Boulogne as examples - this stuff is pleasant AND ambitious & meaty.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 17, 2011, 08:21:01 AM
I just discovered a composer of primarily keyboard music (harpsichord or fortepiano) who lived a short life during the first half of the Classical period.  Manuel Blasco de Nebra (1750-1784) was known mainly as an excellent organist, and who wrote many works - 170 are known, but which only 30 are thought to have survived.  I found this collection of keyboard sonatas played on a fortepiano by Tony Millan which immediately struck me as very unique in the liberal use of dissonance and what sounds like Spanish folk music influenced harmonic and melodic content.  I find his music very pleasing, and only wish more of it survived.

(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cl700/l738/l73889b1p1f.jpg)

This particular item is hard to find and I was lucky to acquire it; to my ears the playing seems very good.  But Naxos has an complete series devoted to his extent keyboard music, and there are a few other recordings available.  HERE (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/feb/04/blasco-nebra-javier-perianes) is a review of a different disc of sonatas which also supplies the basic biographical information.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2011, 09:48:03 AM
Quote from: Arnold on October 17, 2011, 08:21:01 AM
I just discovered a composer of primarily keyboard music (harpsichord or fortepiano) who lived a short life during the first half of the Classical period.  Manuel Blasco de Nebra (1750-1784) was known mainly as an excellent organist, and who wrote many works - 170 are known, but which only 30 are thought to have survived.  I found this collection of keyboard sonatas played on a fortepiano by Tony Millan which immediately struck me as very unique in the liberal use of dissonance and what sounds like Spanish folk music influenced harmonic and melodic content.  I find his music very pleasing, and only wish more of it survived.

(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cl700/l738/l73889b1p1f.jpg)

This particular item is hard to find and I was lucky to acquire it; to my ears the playing seems very good.  But Naxos has an complete series devoted to his extent keyboard music, and there are a few other recordings available.  HERE (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/feb/04/blasco-nebra-javier-perianes) is a review of a different disc of sonatas which also supplies the basic biographical information.

:)

Arnold, yes, I think Nebra is very interesting too. I have the disk that you linked the review of; the music is excellent, although the inappropriateness of the instrument is unfortunate. Here is yet another, that has works both on harpsichord AND on fortepiano;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519ZizuAduL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Cerasi is a first-rate keyboardist, I also have her Haydn disk that also includes a bit on the clavichord for good measure. :)  I am intrigued by that disk you pictured. I'll have to round that up. Pity such a small amount of his work survived. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 17, 2011, 04:01:21 PM
Quote from: Arnold on October 17, 2011, 08:21:01 AM
I just discovered a composer of primarily keyboard music (harpsichord or fortepiano) who lived a short life during the first half of the Classical period.  Manuel Blasco de Nebra (1750-1784) was known mainly as an excellent organist, and who wrote many works - 170 are known, but which only 30 are thought to have survived.  I found this collection of keyboard sonatas played on a fortepiano by Tony Millan which immediately struck me as very unique in the liberal use of dissonance and what sounds like Spanish folk music influenced harmonic and melodic content.  I find his music very pleasing, and only wish more of it survived.

(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cl700/l738/l73889b1p1f.jpg)

This particular item is hard to find and I was lucky to acquire it; to my ears the playing seems very good.  But Naxos has an complete series devoted to his extent keyboard music, and there are a few other recordings available.  HERE (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/feb/04/blasco-nebra-javier-perianes) is a review of a different disc of sonatas which also supplies the basic biographical information.

:)

I too have the disk Gurn has:

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Music/Pix/site_furniture/2010/2/3/1265222124920/Blasco-de-Nebra-Piano-Sonata.jpg)

It is a great find, although I really want a fortepiano recording, still...can't complain about this disk either. I love collecting sonatas from this era!

:-*

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on October 17, 2011, 10:21:37 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 17, 2011, 09:48:03 AM
Arnold, yes, I think Nebra is very interesting too. I have the disk that you linked the review of; the music is excellent, although the inappropriateness of the instrument is unfortunate. Here is yet another, that has works both on harpsichord AND on fortepiano;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519ZizuAduL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Cerasi is a first-rate keyboardist, I also have her Haydn disk that also includes a bit on the clavichord for good measure. :)  I am intrigued by that disk you pictured. I'll have to round that up. Pity such a small amount of his work survived. :-\

8)

I have the pictured disc by Carole Cerasi. And was amazed by the sheer musical quality of Blasco de Nebra, who has such an unfortunately short life. Very impressive indeed - a kind of Spanish Clementi, but more modern, pre-Romantic even.

The Cerasi disc is wonderful, though for my money everything should have been played on the fortepiano. And it lacks a bit of bite. Strongly recommended nevertheless.

A complete Blasco de Nebra series would be absolutely perfect for Pieter-Jan Belder after his highly successfull Soler series on Brilliant.

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 18, 2011, 04:19:14 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 09, 2011, 02:54:03 PM
You raise a good point!  All of those individual volumes will probably eventually be available in a larger box if I want them.  The one-offs will likely not.  In any case, I chose the Sturm und Drang disc.

And....a swing and a hit with the Sturm und Drang disc!  Excellent playing, consistently interesting thus far (listened to half the disc) and I'm not bothered by the sound of the fortepiano like I thought I might be.  Thanks again, Gurn.  His two discs in the ongoing series of Mozart on the fortepiano have been wish listed.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 18, 2011, 04:28:40 PM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on October 17, 2011, 10:21:37 PM
I have the pictured disc by Carole Cerasi. And was amazed by the sheer musical quality of Blasco de Nebra, who has such an unfortunately short life. Very impressive indeed - a kind of Spanish Clementi, but more modern, pre-Romantic even.

The Cerasi disc is wonderful, though for my money everything should have been played on the fortepiano. And it lacks a bit of bite. Strongly recommended nevertheless.

A complete Blasco de Nebra series would be absolutely perfect for Pieter-Jan Belder after his highly successfull Soler series on Brilliant.

Q

The Tony Millan disc that I posted about is on a fortepiano exclusively and I find it more than adequate, although without anything to make an informed comparison cannot speak beyond that personal opinion.  After doing a bit more research I've learned that Millan is a Spaniard and may have a intuitive connection to the music, but there was one negative comment regarding Millan from an anonymous commenter to the Ionarts review I linked.

If you would like to sample some of Tony Millan's interpretations of this music several clips can be found on YouTube.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 05:14:08 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 18, 2011, 04:19:14 PM
And....a swing and a hit with the Sturm und Drang disc!  Excellent playing, consistently interesting thus far (listened to half the disc) and I'm not bothered by the sound of the fortepiano like I thought I might be.  Thanks again, Gurn.  His two discs in the ongoing series of Mozart on the fortepiano have been wish listed.

Excellent! I am delighted that you like it. Generally speaking, for a cycle I stick with my Badura-Skoda. But for single and themed disks, I spend a lot of time looking for the best. I really think this is among them. :)

Anyway, us Texans gotta take care of each other, especially with Mozart. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 19, 2011, 06:18:20 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 18, 2011, 05:14:08 PM
Excellent! I am delighted that you like it. Generally speaking, for a cycle I stick with my Badura-Skoda. But for single and themed disks, I spend a lot of time looking for the best. I really think this is among them. :)

Well, the Badura-Skoda cycle is out of print, so I'll have to take what I can get..even if it means piece by piece.

QuoteAnyway, us Texans gotta take care of each other, especially with Mozart. :D

8)

On that note, I'm loving the Mackerras Mozart!  That said, my current reference recording is the Bohm and Berlin Philharmonic double disc recording and I'm noticing that some of the movements of the Mackerras take significantly longer (five minutes or more, per movement).  Is this just a difference in tempo or did Bohm make some cuts?  Anyone know?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2011, 04:20:57 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on October 19, 2011, 06:18:20 PM
Well, the Badura-Skoda cycle is out of print, so I'll have to take what I can get..even if it means piece by piece.

On that note, I'm loving the Mackerras Mozart!  That said, my current reference recording is the Bohm and Berlin Philharmonic double disc recording and I'm noticing that some of the movements of the Mackerras take significantly longer (five minutes or more, per movement).  Is this just a difference in tempo or did Bohm make some cuts?  Anyone know?

Well, do I know beyond any doubt? No, I rarely if ever listen to 'modern' recordings of Mozart. However, I know this for sure; it was not only customary but practically necessary that many repeats were not taken. This was a big part of the German Post-Romantic orchestral tradition. If that practice doesn't account for the timing differences, I would be very surprised! :o  Perhaps one of our regulars who listens to both styles of performance with apparent impunity will fill us in. (I can say for sure that it isn't because Mackerras takes it slower!  :D )

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 20, 2011, 06:08:32 AM
He
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 20, 2011, 04:20:57 AM
Well, do I know beyond any doubt? No, I rarely if ever listen to 'modern' recordings of Mozart. However, I know this for sure; it was not only customary but practically necessary that many repeats were not taken. This was a big part of the German Post-Romantic orchestral tradition. If that practice doesn't account for the timing differences, I would be very surprised! :o  Perhaps one of our regulars who listens to both styles of performance with apparent impunity will fill us in. (I can say for sure that it isn't because Mackerras takes it slower!  :D )

8)
He did omit repeats and the tempos are not as fast.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on October 20, 2011, 09:16:04 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 20, 2011, 06:08:32 AM
He He did omit repeats and the tempos are not as fast.

Thank you for the information.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 26, 2011, 06:12:53 PM
Just acquired this and find it very very good:

Josef Martin Kraus - 4 Symphonies, Concerto Koln

[asin]B000001WOS[/asin]

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 04:15:38 AM
Quote from: Arnold on October 26, 2011, 06:12:53 PM
Just acquired this and find it very very good:

Josef Martin Kraus - 4 Symphonies, Concerto Koln

[asin]B000001WOS[/asin]

:)

Ah, I'm jealous. I've been looking about for that disk for quite some time, ever since I heard CK playing Rosetti. Kraus' symphonies ARE good, and there is likely not a better band for them than Concerto Köln. Time to get back on that track for shopping. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 27, 2011, 04:19:35 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 27, 2011, 04:15:38 AM
Ah, I'm jealous. I've been looking about for that disk for quite some time, ever since I heard CK playing Rosetti. Kraus' symphonies ARE good, and there is likely not a better band for them than Concerto Köln. Time to get back on that track for shopping. :)

8)

A couple of AMP sellers are offering it new for < $11.00. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000001WOS/ref=tmm_acd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new)

Good to know that I am not alone in admiring Kraus.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 27, 2011, 04:21:10 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 27, 2011, 04:15:38 AM
Ah, I'm jealous. I've been looking about for that disk for quite some time, ever since I heard CK playing Rosetti. Kraus' symphonies ARE good, and there is likely not a better band for them than Concerto Köln. Time to get back on that track for shopping. :)

8)

These are the same recordings, I think, rereleased at budget price:

[asin]B002JP9HOY[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 04:31:59 AM
Quote from: Arnold on October 27, 2011, 04:19:35 AM
A couple of AMP sellers are offering it new for < $11.00. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000001WOS/ref=tmm_acd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new)

Good to know that I am not alone in admiring Kraus.

:)

Yes, I see that. And it is not just one or two sellers either. a few years ago if it was available at all, one had to sell one's first-born male child. That was too biblical for me... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 04:36:05 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 27, 2011, 04:21:10 AM
These are the same recordings, I think, rereleased at budget price:

[asin]B002JP9HOY[/asin]

That's great, I threw it in my basket. Now, if they would just do the same with their 2 Rosetti disks. Of course, they were on Teldec rather than Capriccio, so I guess we can't expect that soon... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on October 27, 2011, 04:42:08 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 27, 2011, 04:36:05 AM
That's great, I threw it in my basket. Now, if they would just do the same with their 2 Rosetti disks. Of course, they were on Teldec rather than Capriccio, so I guess we can't expect that soon... :-\

8)

Glad to help! I have this set myself, but bought in the middle of a splurge and have no memory of my one listen. Clearly, I need to do some catching up!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on October 27, 2011, 06:06:18 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on October 27, 2011, 04:21:10 AM
These are the same recordings, I think, rereleased at budget price:

[asin]B002JP9HOY[/asin]

I wish I had known about that two-fer before I got the older issue.  Ah, well, such is life.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2011, 06:53:23 AM
HEY - looks like the 'image' link option is back - great!   ;D

Boy, the 2-CD set of Kraus Symphonies has peaked my interest, but I already own the 4 Naxos discs (first one shown below) of these works w/ Sundkvist & the Swedish Chamber Orch - OH, decisions to be made!  Dave :)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rs9BLIdAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 29, 2011, 09:17:36 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2011, 06:53:23 AM
HEY - looks like the 'image' link option is back - great!   ;D

Boy, the 2-CD set of Kraus Symphonies has peaked my interest, but I already own the 4 Naxos discs (first one shown below) of these works w/ Sundkvist & the Swedish Chamber Orch - OH, decisions to be made!  Dave :)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rs9BLIdAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Kraus's symphonies are so full of wonders. I still need to get disk 3 of the naxos set, but this series is one of my favorite symphonic cycles ever!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 29, 2011, 09:26:25 AM
I noticed a strange thing recently while listening to the F major symphony by Cambini (1746-1825) on this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YNQRD9E1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It sounded really familiar, in fact, in sounded just like Kraus's F Major symphony found on volume 4 of the naxos series!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kvIVE5R5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

So, I'm comparing them now, and sure enough it's the same symphony! Who wrote it?!? Perhaps, this F major symphony has been attributed to both Cambini and Kraus.

???


:o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on October 29, 2011, 09:43:56 AM
Aha, the plot thickens, it turns out the E Minor Symphony on the Cambini disk , mentioned above:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YNQRD9E1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

...has also been attributed to Kraus as described on the Artaria website,:

http://www.artaria.com/SystemLink_ProductAboutThisWork_270

QuoteThe Symphony in E minor (VB 141) is one of three works in this genre where the question of authorship has, until recently, been somewhat ambiguous. Two sources exist for the work, one of which, a set of manuscript parts in the Thurn und Taxis library in Regensburg, is attributed to Kraus, and the other, the second of a set of three symphonies published in parts by the Parisian publisher Boyer, names Giuseppe Cambini as its author. The question of attribution remained open until 1971 when musicologist Walter Lebermann began to analyze and compare the work with verified symphonies by both composers. His conclusion in 1982 was that the symphony was a work by Kraus based upon comparative stylistic evidence. Since this time further stylistic and source critical analysis has been done which solidifies Kraus's claim to authorship. First, it is now known that the Regensburg parts, under signature Kraus 1, are in the hand of a local copyist active there during the 1780s, and that analysis of the manuscript itself shows it to have been copied sometime between 1783 and 1786, a period during which Kraus visited the Thurn und Taxis court. Second, the edition attributed to Cambini, which was published later in 1787, exhibits several peculiarities that cast strong suspicion on the question of authorship. Two of the three symphonies exist elsewhere as the works of other composers—the Kraus attribution and the third Symphony in D major which also exists in Regensburg under the name of French violinist Prosper-Didier Deshayes. There is some paleographical evidence that the name on the titlepage, "J. Cambini" (rather than the usual "G. Cambini"), is a substitution, although the original engraved name cannot now be read.Moreover, Boyer was a publisher who was not associated with Cambini, who was an immensely popular composer of sinfonia concertantes, had a great following at the Concerts Spirituels, and who published actively with Imbault and others. Finally, an indepth stylistic analysis shows complete correspondence musically with Kraus's symphonies, but only the remotest similarity with authentic Cambini symphonies and concertantes. In short, virtually all of the source critical and stylistic evidence speaks for Kraus's authorship, while there is little to connect the work in any logical or solid way to the popular Italian composer.
A date for the work is a matter of some conjecture, since Kraus visited both Regensburg and Paris during his grand tour 1782-1786. There is, however, some circumstantial evidence that allows a reasonable chronology to be suggested. Pater Alexander Keck, one of the composer's childhood teachers, noted in a letter to Alois Kraus dated 4 October 1800 that he remembered a visit to the new family home in Amorbach in December of 1782, specifically: "At home [Kraus] compiled a symphony that he took with him in score, because it was not finished." In March of 1783 he arrived for a week-long visit to Regensburg, where he was feted royally as an honored guest, including daily concerts by the famed Kapelle. It would not be too far fetched to suggest that, in return for the hospitality, he finished off this work and presented it to the court as a token of his gratitude. This would explain the parts copied by a local scribe, as well as the addition of a flute to the final movement, a reasonable sort of conclusion to an unfinished composition. The autograph, however, remained in his possession until Paris, where Pater Roman Hoffstetter reported that Kraus had presented "several pretty and brilliant symphonies" for publication. The final portion of this tale is that Boyer, knowing that the unknown Kraus would not sell, substituted the better-known Cambini as author, an entirely plausible suggestion given the lack of copyright regulations and the fact that Kraus had already left Paris by that time and thus could not mount a protest.

This edition is based largely upon the Regensburg parts, corrected and compared with the Boyer edition. Since neither source can be considered "authentic" in the strictest sense and therefore lack Kraus's usual precise detail, articulation, dynamics, and phrasing have been regularised according to parallel passages. Only in one passage, bar 38 of the second movement, is there some indication that the different slurring stems from the composer himself, as it is present in both sources. Ambiguous phrases and obvious errors have been tacitly corrected. Of particular interest is the addition of a flute only in the final movement. While the reasons for this have been suggested above, one should not attempt to perform it colla parte in the other movements. On the other hand, it seems permissible to add a bassoon to the bass line for reinforcement according to eighteenth century performance practice.

Bertil van Boer


The F major symphony is a work presumbly also attributed to both Cambini and Kraus, with recent scholarship weighing in on Kraus as the author.

8)

Well, I saw this on the All Music website regarding the Cambini Symphonie disk:

Giuseppe Maria Cambini  Sinfonia in E minor (Book 2/2; probably by J.M. Kraus)
Giuseppe Maria Cambini  Sinfonia in F major (Book 2/1; probably by J.M. Kraus)
Giuseppe Maria Cambini  Sinfonia concertante No. 12 for 2 violins and orchestra in C minor 1998 22:44
Giuseppe Maria Cambini  Sinfonia concertante No. 5 for oboe, bassoon, and orchestra in B flat major
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on October 31, 2011, 09:43:15 AM
This may not be the thread in which to pose my query, and yet I just have this gut feeling that it might be. (If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me to go away.)

Can anyone recommend a HIP box of Mendelssohn's chamber music to get me started? It could be a 'complete chamber music' set; a 'complete Quartets' set - whatever. I'm starting from nowhere - seriously nowhere - and I want a collection that I can dip into at whim. There seem to be several Brilliant sets, but I presume they're not HIP? (Are they any good, even so?)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 09:53:53 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on October 31, 2011, 09:43:15 AM
This may not be the thread in which to pose my query, and yet I just have this gut feeling that it might be. (If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me to go away.)

Can anyone recommend a HIP box of Mendelssohn's chamber music to get me started? It could be a 'complete chamber music' set; a 'complete Quartets' set - whatever. I'm starting from nowhere - seriously nowhere - and I want a collection that I can dip into at whim. There seem to be several Brilliant sets, but I presume they're not HIP? (Are they any good, even so?)

I stole this post out of the "Romantics in Period Performance" thread   >:D  The is the implication in this one that there is at least 1 more there specifically on Mendelssohn, perhaps it has more chambery stuff. :)

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on April 05, 2009, 07:44:33 PM
Well done!!!  I see a number of omissions, however... Let me add a few...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qNPhWXD7L._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Paulus/dp/B0011CVAT6/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1238988747&sr=1-5) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517RIPSH4sL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Elias/dp/B0011BF4YE/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1238988848&sr=1-4)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31I%2B-Z3PqeL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Symphony-Midsummer-Nights-Dream/dp/B000THCE1M/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1238988952&sr=1-14) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dwp6AHYIL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Concertos-Piano-Strings-Violin/dp/B00000JHI7/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989409&sr=1-8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PS9CS7WDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Symhonies-3-4-Felix/dp/B00004RITT/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989096&sr=1-2) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W55VBH93L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Hanover-Band-Plays-Mendelssohn/dp/B0007PL8EK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989153&sr=1-1)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JZJKEKCSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Mendelssohn/dp/B00009963C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989153&sr=1-2) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KlUhL-EHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Schneider-Symphony-Mendelssohn-Concerto-Coloniensis/dp/B0001M64X4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989228&sr=1-3)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GF0ZBJN8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Octet-Quintets-Nos-Quartet/dp/B00004TQQU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989214&sr=1-1) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-z0WqOSeL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Symphonies-No-Italian-Reformation/dp/B000VRRHXK/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk?ie=UTF8&qid=1238989302&sr=1-5)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NFC13ZN9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Lobgesang-Symphony-Cantata-No/dp/B00004ZBKG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1238989571&sr=1-1)

There does seem to be a relatively large amount of period Mendelssohn out there; for that I am very thankful!  ;D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on November 01, 2011, 01:11:12 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 09:53:53 AM
I stole this post out of the "Romantics in Period Performance" thread   >:D  The is the implication in this one that there is at least 1 more there specifically on Mendelssohn, perhaps it has more chambery stuff. :)

8)

Thanks Gurn - you did better than I could manage (I drew a blank on the Period Romantics thread, which is why I came here. But then, my forum searching skills are not good.) And you're right. Antoine provided a list of Mendelssohn period chamber works thus:

Cpte. Vn.&Fpn. Sons. [1825-1839] / T. Kiriyama & K. Ogura / ALM Records ALCD-1056
Cpte. Vc.&Fpn. Sons. & Var. [1829-1843] / C. Coin & P. Cohen / Decca 430245
Cpte. Fpn. Trios [1839-1845] / Voces Intimae / Symphonia SY02199
Cpte. Str. Qts. [Op.12,13,posth., 1823-1827; Op.44-1,2, 1838; Op.44-3,80, 1847] /
      Eroica Quartet / Harmonia Mundi HMU907245; HMU907287; HMU907288
Cpte. Str. Qnts. [#1, 1826; #2, 1845] / L'Archibudelli / Sony SK60766
Cpte. Wind & Fpn. Qts. [Konzertstücke 1 & 2, 1832/3], 1 Cl. Son. [1824], &
      8 Div. Fpn. Works / R. Burnett et al. / Amon Ra 38

A preliminary skirmish suggests that some of these may be unobtainable now, sadly.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 05, 2011, 10:35:05 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y5fGT3V2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm starting out with this fine disk this morning...Boccherini divertimenti (or sextets), all with flute and strings. This recording has great sound by the way! Very natural! The music is charming but also has a streak of deep thought behind it.

A very fine listen after a big move to a new house for me! Relaxing, thoughtful, and meaningful.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 05, 2011, 10:56:15 AM
Quote from: Leo K on November 05, 2011, 10:35:05 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y5fGT3V2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Aug05/Boccherini_box_49463.jpg)

I'm starting out with this fine disk this morning...Boccherini divertimenti (or sextets), all with flute and strings. This recording has great sound by the way! Very natural! The music is charming but also has a streak of deep thought behind it.

A very fine listen after a big move to a new house for me! Relaxing, thoughtful, and meaningful.

Hi Leo - BOY, I have a lot of Boccherini, including the 10-CD box from Capriccio (believe a great BRO bargain a number of years ago - could not find it there today unfortunately); love virtually all of the discs in that collection (except the Guitar Quintets, which I have in other versions) - :)

Not sure that the box is available at the moment, but would be a good 'starter' set for anyone wanting to get into this composer - a listing of the discs and their works, plus a review on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Aug05/Boccherini_CC49463.htm) - Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 05, 2011, 11:07:26 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 05, 2011, 10:56:15 AM
Hi Leo - BOY, I have a lot of Boccherini, including the 10-CD box from Capriccio (believe a great BRO bargain a number of years ago - could not find it there today unfortunately); love virtually all of the discs in that collection (except the Guitar Quintets, which I have in other versions) - :)

Not sure that the box is available at the moment, but would be a good 'starter' set for anyone wanting to get into this composer - a listing of the discs and their works, plus a review on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Aug05/Boccherini_CC49463.htm) - Dave

I hope to find that box someday, as it sounds like a great set, and if everything sounds as good as the divertmenti disk, I've got to check it out! Thanks for the link too  8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 11:14:04 AM
Hey, Leo, good to see you settled in again. I hate the disruption of moving, even when it's moving up!

That's a great disk. I have that same box as Dave has, it is a start to a collection. Or addition either. Nice variety so you get familiar with the whole Boccherini. I may even put Haydn on a short holiday and go on a Boccherini  spree. Nice change of pace. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
La Petite Bande; Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 01_097 Symphony in C 4th mvmt - Finale: Spiritoso
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 05, 2011, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 01, 2011, 01:11:12 AM
A preliminary skirmish suggests that some of these may be unobtainable now, sadly.

Here some additional HIP Mendelssohn, I hope more easily available:  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Zkp-8gBkL._SS400_.jpg)(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/60/1125260.jpg)(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/67/1154967.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516K-LEtChL._SS400_.jpg)(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/94/1192094.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Um3qTJXvL._SS500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mBS-8IBQL._SS500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D8S307BJL._SS500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ozyxy5dML._SS400_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41r%2Bq0k6jUL._SS500_.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260036251562.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0801890030326.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6150SXVR59L._SS500_.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on November 05, 2011, 01:24:21 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 05, 2011, 12:36:27 PM
Here some additional HIP Mendelssohn, I hope more easily available:  :)

Antoine, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and I salute you. Just what I needed. Thank you.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 05, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
Hey, Gurn, your Homero's quote recalls this funny quote by Bertrand Russell:

QuoteMy own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. I cannot, however, deny that it has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two services I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others.

:D ;D :D

It's from an essay titled "Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization?" (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell2.htm). It's usually included as a part of the collection Why am I not a Christian? I think you would enjoy its reading, I mean if you have not read it already. :)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 05, 2011, 01:38:27 PM
Quote from: Elgarian on November 05, 2011, 01:24:21 PM
Antoine, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and I salute you. Just what I needed. Thank you.

You're too much generous, Elgarian. It's a pleasure to help people to discover new things, especially when I usually share their tastes and opinions.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 02:51:43 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 05, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
Hey, Gurn, your Homero's quote recalls this funny quote by Bertrand Russell:

:D ;D :D

It's from an essay titled "Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization?" (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell2.htm). It's usually included as a part of the collection Why am I not a Christian? I think you would enjoy its reading, I mean if you have not read it already. :)

Antoine,
I have not read that, thanks for the mention. I have read a thing or two by Bertrand Russell and find him to be to my liking. As for Homero, well, hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing are gifts to mankind; occasional acknowledgement of same is only fitting. :D

8)


----------------
Now playing:
La Petite Bande; Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 01_098 Symphony in Bb 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 07, 2011, 06:04:41 AM
New classical 4s  by Forster on the way from Hungaroton. No image yet. (There is one on Arkiv though.)

[asin]B00632KV9E[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2011, 06:18:36 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 07, 2011, 06:04:41 AM
New classical 4s  by Forster on the way from Hungaroton. No image yet. (There is one on Arkiv though.)

[asin]B00632KV9E[/asin]

Cool! It doesn't appear to duplicate this one (which apparently doesn't have a pic either, but is the Les Adieux double disk (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/411D07Q6B3L.jpg)):

[asin]B000FAB8SS[/asin]

which is Op 19, 20 & 26, and the new one is Op 21. That's going to be on the list, I can see it now. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 07, 2011, 06:21:43 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 07, 2011, 06:18:36 AM
Cool! It doesn't appear to duplicate this one (which apparently doesn't have a pic either, but is the Les Adieux double disk (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/411D07Q6B3L.jpg)):

[asin]B000FAB8SS[/asin]

which is Op 19, 20 & 26, and the new one is Op 21. That's going to be on the list, I can see it now. :)

8)

Which I too have. Nope, brand spanking! And so the wish list grows...  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 08, 2011, 05:49:34 AM
I recently increased the footprint in my collection for a couple of Classical era  composers, Ferdinand Ries and Anton Reicha.  Ries might arguably be moving into the early Romantic period, but I still consider him as much of the Classical period as Beethoven.     8)

I've now all the Ries Symphonies and one half of his String Quartets and the late Flute Quartets.  All of these works are of a very high level and I am surprised his name is not better known outside of Classical era buffs, not to say programmed more often.   :o

I also acquired the 10 disc collection of Anton Reicha's Wind Quintets, thinking, well I bet ten discs of the same ensemble will offer up a lot of similar sounding music.  Not so!  The variety Reicha achieves using the same combination of instruments is simply astounding.

[asin]B000IY061Q[/asin] [asin]B000001RXQ[/asin] [asin]B000CGYO8G[/asin] [asin]B000VIFLX2[/asin]

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 08, 2011, 06:06:13 AM
Quote from: Arnold on November 08, 2011, 05:49:34 AM
I recently increased the footprint in my collection for a couple of Classical era  composers, Ferdinand Ries and Anton Reicha.  Ries might arguably be moving into the early Romantic period, but I still consider him as much of the Classical period as Beethoven.     8)

I've now all the Ries Symphonies and one half of his String Quartets and the late Flute Quartets.  All of these works are of a very high level and I am surprised his name is not better known outside of Classical era buffs, not to say programmed more often.   :o

I also acquired the 10 disc collection of Anton Reicha's Wind Quintets, thinking, well I bet ten discs of the same ensemble will offer up a lot of similar sounding music.  Not so!  The variety Reicha achieves using the same combination of instruments is simply astounding.

[asin]B000IY061Q[/asin] [asin]B000001RXQ[/asin] [asin]B000CGYO8G[/asin] [asin]B000VIFLX2[/asin]

:)
Some excellent acquisitions there! If you like Ries, there are several piano concertos as well on Naxos. Naxos have also started a series of Ries Sonatas. There is also a disc of overtures on CPO if you want purely orchestral music. The two I love most from this period (those that are less visible) are Ries and Czerny.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 08, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 08, 2011, 06:06:13 AM
Some excellent acquisitions there! If you like Ries, there are several piano concertos as well on Naxos. Naxos have also started a series of Ries Sonatas. There is also a disc of overtures on CPO if you want purely orchestral music. The two I love most from this period (those that are less visible) are Ries and Czerny.

Hmmm - just reviewed my Ries collection - 14 discs including the complete symphonies (all but 2 on CPO); BUT surprisingly no Piano Concertos - need to look into that gap, especially since Ries as a student & kind of personal secretary to Beethoven (both from Bonn), and also premiered Ludwig's 3rd Piano Concerto writing his own cadenza!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 08, 2011, 07:16:39 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 08, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
Hmmm - just reviewed my Ries collection - 14 discs including the complete symphonies (all but 2 on CPO); BUT surprisingly no Piano Concertos - need to look into that gap, especially since Ries as a student & kind of personal secretary to Beethoven (both from Bonn), and also premiered Ludwig's 3rd Piano Concerto writing his own cadenza!  :)

I plan on looking into the Ries Piano Concertos myself, but do not discount the String Quartets - they are well worth investigating.  There is a second installment which I will pick up immediately after listening to Vol. 1 and being very impressed.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 08, 2011, 07:42:53 AM
Quote from: Arnold on November 08, 2011, 07:16:39 AM
I plan on looking into the Ries Piano Concertos myself, but do not discount the String Quartets - they are well worth investigating.  There is a second installment which I will pick up immediately after listening to Vol. 1 and being very impressed.

:)
Well, if you like chamber, there is plenty to investigate - trios, quartets, septets, etc. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 08, 2011, 07:48:04 AM
I'm finally getting Hyacinthe Jadin's sonatas:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y9Bgq6dw6XQ/TrlXd9lravI/AAAAAAAAQ3o/_Bnn4PIwdUQ/s640/HyacintheJadin0.jpg)

Can't wait to hear this!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2011, 07:53:21 AM
Quote from: Arnold on November 08, 2011, 07:16:39 AM
I plan on looking into the Ries Piano Concertos myself, but do not discount the String Quartets - they are well worth investigating.  There is a second installment which I will pick up immediately after listening to Vol. 1 and being very impressed.

:)

That's a big 'seconded' from here. I have both those Schuppanzigh disks and really like them. Strongly recommended. :)

I have the first 2 Naxos PC disks also and once again, very commendable. Wish I had more time, but for now, just saying that Ries is worth looking into, no doubt.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2011, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Leo K on November 08, 2011, 07:48:04 AM
I'm finally getting Hyacinthe Jadin's sonatas:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y9Bgq6dw6XQ/TrlXd9lravI/AAAAAAAAQ3o/_Bnn4PIwdUQ/s640/HyacintheJadin0.jpg)

Can't wait to hear this!

8)

Aghhh! I want it!  Amazon? :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 08, 2011, 08:04:22 AM
Quote from: Leo K on November 08, 2011, 07:48:04 AM
I'm finally getting Hyacinthe Jadin's sonatas:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y9Bgq6dw6XQ/TrlXd9lravI/AAAAAAAAQ3o/_Bnn4PIwdUQ/s640/HyacintheJadin0.jpg)

Can't wait to hear this!

8)

I, too, am interested - in the music,    ;)    however, the album art leaves something to be desired.  :o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 08, 2011, 08:06:24 AM
Quote from: Arnold on November 08, 2011, 08:04:22 AM
I, too, am interested - in the music,    ;)    however, the album art leaves something to be desired.  :o

Is that a Hyacinthe Bucket?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 08, 2011, 08:31:01 AM
Quote from: Arnold on November 08, 2011, 07:16:39 AM
I plan on looking into the Ries Piano Concertos myself, but do not discount the String Quartets - they are well worth investigating.  There is a second installment which I will pick up immediately after listening to Vol. 1 and being very impressed.

Hi Arnold - as mentioned I have plenty of Ries, mostly chamber works (other than the Symphonies), including both volumes of the SQs - recommended!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 08, 2011, 08:41:17 AM
Quote from: Leo K on November 08, 2011, 07:48:04 AM
I'm finally getting Hyacinthe Jadin's sonatas:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y9Bgq6dw6XQ/TrlXd9lravI/AAAAAAAAQ3o/_Bnn4PIwdUQ/s640/HyacintheJadin0.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PD3TH51xL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)


Well, I have just a single disc of these works on fortepiano - 3-CD set is rather expensive even on the Amazon MP (better looking cover art!) - but, the MP3 download is $9?  Liner notes - well I have some w/ the single disc - a consideration?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 08, 2011, 09:23:42 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 08, 2011, 08:41:17 AM
Well, I have just a single disc of these works on fortepiano - 3-CD set is rather expensive even on the Amazon MP (better looking cover art!) - but, the MP3 download is $9?  Liner notes - well I have some w/ the single disc - a consideration?  Dave :)

Yes, Dave I found the same info on Amazon and bookmarked the download. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 09, 2011, 06:27:06 AM
Richard Fuller also recorded this excellant disk, also available as an Amazon download:

[asin]B00014AQAE[/asin]

I love these obscure works!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 09, 2011, 06:30:25 AM
Quote from: Arnold on November 08, 2011, 07:16:39 AM
I plan on looking into the Ries Piano Concertos myself, but do not discount the String Quartets - they are well worth investigating.  There is a second installment which I will pick up immediately after listening to Vol. 1 and being very impressed.

:)

I am a fan of Ries too, and have slowly been gathering more CPO disks, as well as the Naxos set of his piano concertos, GREAT STUFF.

I keep forgetting to start on the Naxos series on his piano sonatas.

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 09, 2011, 12:35:14 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 08, 2011, 08:41:17 AM
Well, I have just a single disc of these works on fortepiano - 3-CD set is rather expensive even on the Amazon MP (better looking cover art!) - but, the MP3 download is $9?  Liner notes - well I have some w/ the single disc - a consideration?  Dave :)

Well could not wait & just $9 as a MP3 download - 12 Sonatas on 33 tracks (3 1/2 hours of music) - Richard Fuller plays on a Nannette Streicher fortepiano built in Vienna in 1814. This instrument is from a private Austrian collection and was restored in 2004 by Albrecht Czernin, Vienna, Austria - see the text information attached which includes a listing of the sonatas and some information about Fuller; also at the bottom of the notes is a website w/ more on Streicher - enjoy!

Now listening to these delightful works off my iPod - attached to my den stereo via the AUX input - worth the price of admission!  Dave :)

P.S. the fortepiano below is also a Streicher from the 1820s - could not locate a pic of the one Fuller is playing - sorry.


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Knqg4LK/0/O/JadinFuller.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-JGrTQb3/0/M/StreicherFPVienna1829-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 10, 2011, 03:39:08 PM
This is a new group for me, The London Fortepiano Trio.  Hyperion has a nice 3-CD set of Six Piano Trios by Mozart which seems, upon first listening, to be very good.

Does anyone have any other recommendations of this group?

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571140216.png) (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDS44021/3&vw=dc)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2011, 04:37:49 PM
Quote from: Arnold on November 10, 2011, 03:39:08 PM
This is a new group for me, The London Fortepiano Trio.  Hyperion has a nice 3-CD set of Six Piano Trios by Mozart which seems, upon first listening, to be very good.

Does anyone have any other recommendations of this group?

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571140216.png) (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDS44021/3&vw=dc)

I like that set, and have this one too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLondonFortepianoTriocover.jpg)

London Fortepiano Trio is one of the dozen or so groups that Monica Huggett fiddles with. Perhaps not always 'con fuego', but certainly always right on musically.

I don't know any other disks of theirs, although surely there must be some. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 11, 2011, 04:26:31 AM
Although his dates get well into the 18th century, he is only marginally to be considered a Classical era composer.  Possibly Galante?.   He is among that group of composers that wrote music bridging the Baroque and Classical periods.   But, having said that, the music on this disc is some of the best I've heard from a composer previously unknown to me.  So, if there is a better thread to place this post, moderators please move it there.

Giovanni Benedetto Platti (1692-1763)

Giovanni Benedetto Platti was trained in Venice, suggesting that he was a native of that city, but some authorities say he was from Bergamo. Between the ages of 20 and 22, he went to Germany (then a popular destination for young Italian musicians looking for jobs). He did obtain work in Würzburg with the bishop's court and stayed in that job until 1763, aside from a brief period after 1725 when all the court musicians were dismissed in an economy move. He was a singing teacher and a virtuoso oboist, violinist, and harpsichordist, fluent on cello and a good enough singer that he could depute as tenor when needed. In 1723, he married Theresia Langprückner, a soprano, in Mainz. They had two sons.

Platti began composing in a Baroque style and later made a transition to the newer galant style and the earlier Classical style. As time went on, his music became more German and less Italian. It has a strong sense of rhythmic life; good use of counterpoint (especially in the more Baroque early pieces); a full command of harmonic devices that leads to considerable variety in harmonic color; interesting syncopations; and good, often florid, melodies. On the other hand, he was often satisfied by the results of hasty work and these works tend to have trite, overworked sequential patterns.

© Joseph Stevenson, All Music Guide


Platti: Sonatas & Trios
Epoca Barocca

(http://images.ariama.com/amg/class/cov200/cm500/m556/m55672yhm10.jpg)

I can't say I agree completely with the end of Mr. Stevenson's last sentence, but to be fair, I have not listened to more than this one disc.  It is a ringer, imo.

It is beginning to strike me that I generally prefer music from the first part of the Classical era, and much of what was done before 1750 I find a bit more satisfying to my taste than that written near the end of the century and into the 19th.  But of course, one cannot do without, late Haydn, Mozart and all of Beethoven.   ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on November 13, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
A few pages back this set was discussed:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b1PdSylCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've listened to symphonies 1, 2, 3, 5, and a few overtures and I must say that my jaw has dropped.  I've been looking for a more period-oriented Beethoven set lately and first tried the Abbado 2001 set as a sort of transitional stage between Karajan, Szell et. al. and HIP.  I wasn't as impressed as I would have liked (though it was good) and the third and sixth, two of my favorite symphonies, left me cold.  I was afraid that I was weaned on the more romantic variety of Beethoven and wouldn't be able to handle the sets more classical in orientation.  Boy was I wrong!  Immerseel's set is GREAT!  A passionate (but not overly romanticized) sound, great playing, none of the negative HIP stereotypes (ridiculously fast tempi, for example), strings that sound neither overly lush nor anemic...I still need to hear Harnoncourt's and Mackerras's (second) sets, but this may well be the set.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on November 13, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
A few pages back this set was discussed:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b1PdSylCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've listened to symphonies 1, 2, 3, 5, and a few overtures and I must say that my jaw has dropped.  I've been looking for a more period-oriented Beethoven set lately and first tried the Abbado 2001 set as a sort of transitional stage between Karajan, Szell et. al. and HIP.  I wasn't as impressed as I would have liked (though it was good) and the third and sixth, two of my favorite symphonies, left me cold.  I was afraid that I was weaned on the more romantic variety of Beethoven and wouldn't be able to handle the sets more classical in orientation.  Boy was I wrong!  Immerseel's set is GREAT!  A passionate (but not overly romanticized) sound, great playing, none of the negative HIP stereotypes (ridiculously fast tempi, for example), strings that sound neither overly lush nor anemic...I still need to hear Harnoncourt's and Mackerras's (second) sets, but this may well be the set.

:)

It's a hard set not to like (unless you are just a anti-PI/HIP fanatic). And a couple of the symphonies are on my "Best PI Version" Hall of Fame. #5, for example. And as you pointed out, it puts the lie to the old generalization that "all HIP orchestral works are performed too fast to play". Given your enthusiasm, and also Elgarian's over the same set, I guess it will have to move to the top of my "recommend" list. The 2 modern instrument sets you mentioned are pretty fine too, but they just don't have that sound that I love so dearly. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 14, 2011, 02:23:48 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 04:44:59 PM
Given your enthusiasm, and also Elgarian's over the same set...

And mine!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 14, 2011, 04:18:33 AM
This is something I just found that I think is fascinating:

The Secret Mozart: Works for Clavichord - Christopher Hogwood

[asin]B000FDFS04[/asin]

I can imagine this is what Mozart sounded like when he was alone in his room.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 05:23:41 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 14, 2011, 02:23:48 AM
And mine!

And Chas'...  :D
Quote from: Arnold on November 14, 2011, 04:18:33 AM
This is something I just found that I think is fascinating:

The Secret Mozart: Works for Clavichord - Christopher Hogwood

[asin]B000FDFS04[/asin]

I can imagine this is what Mozart sounded like when he was alone in his room.

:)

I really like that disk. It was my first exclusively clavichord disk and came out while I was giving Mozart the same treatment that Haydn is getting now. It quickly shot to the top of my listening charts. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 23, 2011, 02:59:10 AM
Listened to the first disc of each of these sets last night. I've long been unable to take toy pianos seriously, but I really liked the Haydn. Playful and fresh. Worries me that I might have a whole new vista of expense opening up in front of me!
[asin]B001EQPD3I[/asin]

This one, on the other hand... Euch! There be bad notes here! among the strings.
[asin]B000GYHR0Q[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 04:13:59 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 23, 2011, 02:59:10 AM
Listened to the first disc of each of these sets last night. I've long been unable to take toy pianos seriously, but I really liked the Haydn. Playful and fresh. Worries me that I might have a whole new vista of expense opening up in front of me!
[asin]B001EQPD3I[/asin]

This one, on the other hand... Euch! There be bad notes here! among the strings.
[asin]B000GYHR0Q[/asin]

No surprise about the Haydn, it's a sweet box. I have those disks in the Big Box, but if I didn't, the Small Box would be a no-brainer. Very nice. :)

A little surprised (and disappointed) about the Boccherini. I have those works already by other players so I never got that set. Looks like a good default choice now. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 25, 2011, 04:41:42 AM
Some o' you classical buffs might be interested to know that this little number has shown up on BRO for 21 greenbacks. I think it lovely, but then I'm pretty shallow, so ready your grains of salt!  :D

[asin]B000050FKM[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 04:59:04 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 25, 2011, 04:41:42 AM
Some o' you classical buffs might be interested to know that this little number has shown up on BRO for 21 greenbacks. I think it lovely, but then I'm pretty shallow, so ready your grains of salt!  :D

[asin]B000050FKM[/asin]

Interesting, chas. Always curious when a name pops up that I've never heard before. Time to do a little research. :)  Must be several disks (3?) if it is $21 at BRO!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 25, 2011, 05:07:22 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 04:59:04 AM
Interesting, chas. Always curious when a name pops up that I've never heard before. Time to do a little research. :)  Must be several disks (3?) if it is $21 at BRO!

8)

Yes, 3 discs. $55.49 at Arkiv. Here's a review with which I concur:

QuoteFelice Giardini (1716-96) spent the largest part of his career in England, an exponent of the emerging Classical style. His string trios represent a major addition to this rewarding yet neglected medium. The 20 works recorded here all have three movements in moderate, slow, quick order. All last about 10 minutes, and none are in minor keys. These statistics alone should be sufficient to tell you that the music is neither especially complex nor particularly profound, but like so much music of the Rococo period, it's very pleasant taken in small doses. In fact, Giardini proves himself an expert craftsman and tunesmith, able to wrest an extraordinary amount of color and charm from his three players, and the music never turns dull or formulaic. The Budapest String Trio makes the best possible case for the composer, infusing as much rhythmic urgency and instrumental personality into each piece as the music will stand (without overdoing it). Toss in finely focused recording, and the result is self-recommending for string players and collectors of fine chamber music.
--David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 25, 2011, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 25, 2011, 04:41:42 AM
Some o' you classical buffs might be interested to know that this little number has shown up on BRO for 21 greenbacks. I think it lovely, but then I'm pretty shallow, so ready your grains of salt!  :D

[asin]B000050FKM[/asin]

Well, I've had that one for a number of years - also, bought from BRO at a steal w/ the 3 discs included - recommended!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 25, 2011, 09:59:18 AM
Now listening to a couple of BRO bargains that just arrived the other day! :)

Really enjoying this group, i.e. Piccolo Concerto Wien - Boccherini Divertimenti & Haydn Divertimenti a Quattro!

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-9Q9gPzv/0/O/BoccheriniDivertimentiPCWien.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-M9jvG5w/0/O/HaydnDivertimentiPCWien.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on November 26, 2011, 04:33:55 PM
A quick question before you folks return to your regularly scheduled discussion of obscure composers (:D):

If you could recommend three discs each of Haydn and Mozart string quartets (or a box set roughly equal to the cost of three single discs), what would you recommend?  Don't be shy about recommending HIP, either, if good interpretations are available.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 04:56:30 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on November 26, 2011, 04:33:55 PM
A quick question before you folks return to your regularly scheduled discussion of obscure composers (:D):

If you could recommend three discs each of Haydn and Mozart string quartets (or a box set roughly equal to the cost of three single discs), what would you recommend?  Don't be shy about recommending HIP, either, if good interpretations are available.

Well, I took a quick run through Amazon trying to pick a specific box for you, but it's just too damned hard! :-\

This sounds like you are thinking of giving a gift.

For Mozart I would choose a box with 3 disks of the "6 Quartets Dedicated to Haydn". There are simply dozens of ones out there. On modern instruments, I think the very first one that shows up if you search on mozart haydn quartet" is the Teldec box by the Alban Berg quartet. I am told by all parties that that is the one to have. My personal choices are all HIP, starting with Quatuor Mosaiqes, but it is OOP and you'll never find it so don't waste your time. My second favorite is the Kuijken Quartet on Denon. It is OOP and you'll never find it so don't waste your time. I could go on, but the only HIP box I was able to find at Amazon was Salomon Quartet and I haven't heard it specifically, although I have quite a bit of their Mozart and Haydn and do like it a lot. I might buy it myself before it is OOP and I'll never find it so I won't waste my time. :D

For Haydn. For <>$30 you can get either of the Mosaiques boxes.
[asin]B001F0JZZU[/asin]
or
[asin]B001F0K004[/asin]

Right this minute, the second one is not only the better bargain (as low as $22) but IMO if you are just starting with Haydn these are the ones to start with (Op 64, 76 & 77).

My 2 cents worth.

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons35-38-39-49-58-59cover.jpg)  L'Estro Armonico; Solomons - Hob 01_035 Symphony in Bb 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on November 26, 2011, 05:50:43 PM
Don't know how well this fits into your intentions, but you might want to consider this:
[asin]B005OZDXTQ[/asin]
One CD per composer.  Haydn is represented by Op. 77; Mozart by two of the "Haydn" quartets.

I know of two complete Mozart cycles DG has issued in budget format:  Amadeus Qt and Hagen Qt. 
[asin]B0033QEQGW[/asin]
[asin]B000FBH3XQ[/asin]

I have the Amadeus set and one of the CDs from the Hagen cycle;  i think the Hagens do a better job with the quartets on that individual CD, but of course I don't know if the rest of their cycle matches up, and I'm not sure of the higher price would be worth paying for the Hagen cycle.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 03:07:02 AM
I'm with Gurn on the second Mosaiques Haydn box, opp. 64, 76, 77. And while it is HIP, the playing is disciplined and intonation excellent.

For Mozart something with similar characteristics, containing all of his "Haydn" quartets on 3 discs:

[asin]B000JBXIIG[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 03:11:56 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 03:07:02 AM
For Mozart something with similar characteristics, containing all of his "Haydn" quartets on 3 discs:

[asin]B000JBXIIG[/asin]

Ah, I was looking at that one, but I hadn't heard anything about those ladies. Maybe I'll give them a shot now I know someone to blame it on... ;D ;D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 27, 2011, 05:17:03 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 03:07:02 AM
I'm with Gurn on the second Mosaiques Haydn box, opp. 64, 76, 77. And while it is HIP, the playing is disciplined and intonation excellent.

For Mozart something with similar characteristics, containing all of his "Haydn" quartets on 3 discs:

[asin]B000JBXIIG[/asin]

This looks like a great set, thanks for the heads up  :o 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 05:37:02 AM
Quote from: Leo K on November 27, 2011, 05:17:03 AM
This looks like a great set, thanks for the heads up  :o 8)
Very good. If quick, you'll find it on BRO for $12.
:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on November 27, 2011, 06:32:31 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 26, 2011, 04:56:30 PM
This sounds like you are thinking of giving a gift.


A gift to myself... :)

I recently heard a Kodaly Quartet recording (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Op-Nos/dp/B0000013OQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1322363410&sr=8-3) of the latter three of Haydn's Op. 76 quartets that has been sitting unused in my collection for a few years and was blown away.  Reminded me that I should check out some more of the quartets by both composers.  Thank you very much for the lead on the Quatuor Mosaïques Haydn box set!  I'll pick that up as soon as I have money.  I'm interested in that Mozart set which also happens to be in print, too.

And thanks everyone else for the other recommendations!  Keep in mind that I'm looking for 'best' works rather than complete box sets.  That Klenke set seems to fit the bill nicely.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 06:55:36 AM
I have recommended this set before, but for Mozart's "Haydn" quartets there is not better combination price/quality than this:

[asin]B000H6SU9U[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on November 27, 2011, 07:48:47 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 06:55:36 AM
I have recommended this set before, but for Mozart's "Haydn" quartets there is not better combination price/quality than this:

[asin]B000H6SU9U[/asin]

Thanks for the lead.  Do you have more detailed thoughts on this set? (other than the GREAT price!)  Is it HIP or HIP influenced?  General thoughts on the playing style?  Any information you can provide is helpful.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 08:05:56 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on November 27, 2011, 07:48:47 AM
Thanks for the lead.  Do you have more detailed thoughts on this set? (other than the GREAT price!)  Is it HIP or HIP influenced?  General thoughts on the playing style?  Any information you can provide is helpful.

Totally HIP and played on period instruments. This is the ensemble of the Smithsonian Institution (that's the origin of their instruments), but currently is known as The Axelrod Quartet. At the time of these recordings, the quartet was leaded by the famous Dutch violinist Jaap Schröeder, who, for instance, shares credits with Hoogwood in the integral recording of the Mozart symphonies (AAM, L'Oyseau Lyre). All those quartets are exceptionally well played and the set includes some bonus (K. 563, 370).

Here you can read a more detailed review:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/May07/MozartSmithson_3727782.htm
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 27, 2011, 08:15:58 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 06:55:36 AM
I have recommended this set before, but for Mozart's "Haydn" quartets there is not better combination price/quality than this:

[asin]B000H6SU9U[/asin]

I second this recommendation.  I consider this set first rate.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 28, 2011, 07:28:02 AM
Hertel, Johann Wilhelm (1727-1789) - Concerti & Sinfonie w/ Capriccio Barock Orchester and Sergio Assolini on bassoon - my first disc of this little known German late Baroque-early Classical composer; stimulated by a good review in Fanfare reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Miho-Fukui/Performer/232614-2) and the inclusion of a number of bassoon concerti; all played on PIs for 80+ minutes!

Despite searching I can find little on this 'transitional' composer of the 18th century (a period that I love!) - a short Wiki Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wilhelm_Hertel) is available - he apparently wrote a LOT of music but googling for an oeuvre was not successful - what to obtain next, if anything?  Apparently his trumpet concerto(s) is well known - might consider the MDG disc below?  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-FJxWxP9/0/O/HertelAzzoliniBassoon.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cg4qVtt-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Johann_Wilhelm_Hertel.jpg/220px-Johann_Wilhelm_Hertel.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on November 28, 2011, 11:03:55 AM
Thank you for all the advice, gentlemen.  You can view the fruits of your labors (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg580632.html#msg580632) here.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on November 28, 2011, 11:45:04 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on November 28, 2011, 11:03:55 AM
Thank you for all the advice, gentlemen.  You can view the fruits of your labors (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg580632.html#msg580632) here.

Would those be fresh fruits or canned fruits in light syrup?  :D  Good looking buys!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on November 28, 2011, 12:15:11 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 28, 2011, 11:45:04 AM
Would those be fresh fruits or canned fruits in light syrup?

That depends entirely upon how long it takes the sellers to ship them out... ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on November 28, 2011, 04:06:19 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 28, 2011, 07:28:02 AM
Hertel, Johann Wilhelm (1727-1789) - Concerti & Sinfonie w/ Capriccio Barock Orchester and Sergio Assolini on bassoon - my first disc of this little known German late Baroque-early Classical composer; stimulated by a good review in Fanfare reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Miho-Fukui/Performer/232614-2) and the inclusion of a number of bassoon concerti; all played on PIs for 80+ minutes!

Despite searching I can find little on this 'transitional' composer of the 18th century (a period that I love!) - a short Wiki Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wilhelm_Hertel) is available - he apparently wrote a LOT of music but googling for an oeuvre was not successful - what to obtain next, if anything?  Apparently his trumpet concerto(s) is well known - might consider the MDG disc below?  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-FJxWxP9/0/O/HertelAzzoliniBassoon.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cg4qVtt-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Johann_Wilhelm_Hertel.jpg/220px-Johann_Wilhelm_Hertel.jpg)

This is great Dave! I also recently discovered this composer and I'm loving what I'm hearing. Here is the disk I have, with three concertos and two short sinfonias:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4026798100278.jpg)

Totally Recommended!

8)

By the way, I also like the music of his father, Johann Christian Hertel  ;)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 29, 2011, 07:50:48 AM
Quote from: Leo K on November 28, 2011, 04:06:19 PM
This is great Dave! I also recently discovered this composer and I'm loving what I'm hearing. Here is the disk I have, with three concertos and two short sinfonias:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4026798100278.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cg4qVtt-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Totally Recommended!  By the way, I also like the music of his father, Johann Christian Hertel  ;)

Hi Leo - just listened to my disc yesterday - excellent and love the bassoon (not sure which works are on your CD?) - but stimulated by what I heard, just ordered the 'trumpet' recording on MDG (a label I love!) - should arrive by the end of the week!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on November 30, 2011, 07:24:05 PM
Two very nice recordings:

[asin]B000BOWT4K[/asin]

[asin]B0000029KA[/asin]

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on December 02, 2011, 04:24:25 AM
Another upcoming release from Hungaroton that might find favour with the cats in the classical corner.

[asin]B006EMSQ1I[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2011, 04:36:13 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on December 02, 2011, 04:24:25 AM
Another upcoming release from Hungaroton that might find favour with the cats in the classical corner.

[asin]B006EMSQ1I[/asin]

I have this one;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ABRQTXKML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

and this one;

[asin]B00365QSH0[/asin]

and find them both quite enjoyable. Certainly it will be interesting to look into another (known good) composer's take on the basset horn trio. Thanks for the link, Chas!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 06:59:01 AM
Having a lot of enjoyment from this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UZmsUdD3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Especially the E Minor Symphony, wow! What a fine work of "sturm und drang" emotion!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 06:59:01 AM
Having a lot of enjoyment from this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UZmsUdD3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Especially the E Minor Symphony, wow! What a fine work of "sturm und drang" emotion!

8)

I didn't realize they were up to Vol 4 of that series. I don't think I have Vol 3 yet!  :-[  And I really like Vanhal's music too. What am I thinking?  :-\  Thanks for the reminder, Leo. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 07:40:39 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 04, 2011, 07:13:51 AM
I didn't realize they were up to Vol 4 of that series. I don't think I have Vol 3 yet!  :-[  And I really like Vanhal's music too. What am I thinking?  :-\  Thanks for the reminder, Leo. :)

8)

It's Haydn's fault!  :o  ;D

I forgot how wonderful's Vanhal's symphonies really are, and this disk cements my love! I've returned to the early volumes too. Vanhal's a good/interesting musical adventure to go alongside my recent Haydn journey  ;)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 07:57:42 AM
Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 07:40:39 AM
It's Haydn's fault!  :o  ;D

I forgot how wonderful Vanhal's symphonies really are, and this disk cements my love! I've returned to the early volumes too. Vanhal's a good/interesting musical adventure to go alongside my recent Haydn journey  ;)

Yup, right on all counts. I quite enjoyed Vol 1 & 2, and a couple of other Vanhal disks I have too. He was a top-shelf composer in his day, and IMO his quality hasn't diminished over the years, despite that his fame has. Tastes change; taste doesn't. Vanhal was always in good taste. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 08:38:10 AM
Exactly Gurn! Vanhal is a top reccomendation for those interested in exploring the comtempories of Haydn and Mozart.

By the way, this morning I'm also enjoying this 3 CD set:

(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/2008-02-15/g.b.sammartini_sinf.jpg)

Sinfonia In A major, J-C 88
Sinfonia (Sonata) for 2 violins & bass in F major, Op.2/1, J-C 38
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in C major, J-C 7
Sinfonia (Sonata) for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, Op. 2/8, J-C 37
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in D major, J-C 14
Sinfonia for 2 violins & bass in B flat major, J-C 66b
Sinfonia (Sonata) for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, Op. 2/11, J-C 33
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, J-C 34
Sinfonia for 2 violins & bass in G minor, J-C 59 (2 movements only)
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in D major, J-C 15
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in A major, J-C 65
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in G major, J-C 39
Sinfonia (Sonata) for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, Op. 2/5, J-C 35
Sinfonia for 2 violins & bass in B flat major, J-C 66a
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, J-C 36
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in C minor, J-C 9
Sinfonia (Sinfonia No.5) for 2 violins & bass in A major, J-C 64
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in D minor, J-C 23
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in B flat major, J-C 67
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, J-C 32



Anyone else a fan of Sammartini? This is fantastic music, played on Authentic instruments.  ;D

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 08:59:55 AM
Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 08:38:10 AM
Exactly Gurn! Vanhal is a top reccomendation for those interested in exploring the comtempories of Haydn and Mozart.

By the way, this morning I'm also enjoying this 3 CD set:

(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/2008-02-15/g.b.sammartini_sinf.jpg)

Sinfonia In A major, J-C 88
Sinfonia (Sonata) for 2 violins & bass in F major, Op.2/1, J-C 38
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in C major, J-C 7
Sinfonia (Sonata) for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, Op. 2/8, J-C 37
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in D major, J-C 14
Sinfonia for 2 violins & bass in B flat major, J-C 66b
Sinfonia (Sonata) for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, Op. 2/11, J-C 33
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, J-C 34
Sinfonia for 2 violins & bass in G minor, J-C 59 (2 movements only)
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in D major, J-C 15
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in A major, J-C 65
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in G major, J-C 39
Sinfonia (Sonata) for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, Op. 2/5, J-C 35
Sinfonia for 2 violins & bass in B flat major, J-C 66a
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, J-C 36
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in C minor, J-C 9
Sinfonia (Sinfonia No.5) for 2 violins & bass in A major, J-C 64
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in D minor, J-C 23
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in B flat major, J-C 67
Sinfonia for 2 violins, viola & bass in F major, J-C 32



Anyone else a fan of Sammartini? This is fantastic music, played on Authentic instruments.  ;D

:D  OK, well I have that box too. Sammartini was the Italian version of Johann Stamitz, more or less, in that he advanced the sinfonia from being an ear opener that meant nothing into a work all on its own with a reason to be. Haydn was said by some of his contemporaries to have been influenced early on by Sammartini, but he vehemently denied it, claiming his only influence was from CPE Bach. Nationalism, perhaps? Since Haydn's teachers in the 1750's were both Italian (Metastasio & Porpora), I wouldn't be at all surprised if some Sammartini didn't sneak in under the door, so to speak. :D

Good music, as you say, and worth a listen even if not for historical purposes. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on December 06, 2011, 04:14:29 PM
A thought struck me as was listening to a Mozart piano concerto and I wanted to solicit some ideas from my fellow corner-dwellers.

Looking at the "Big 3", Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven - my thought is that while each one excelled in all the forms they composed in, for me, these are the forms that I find they really made their own and contributed, arguably, their most important statements:

Haydn: String Quartet & Piano Trio
Mozart: Piano Concerto and Opera
Beethoven: Symphony and Piano Sonata

As I said, they all wrote masterfully in all the forms they attempted, but I seem to identify each one with a different group of works.

I would love to hear from others their ideas.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on December 06, 2011, 05:19:04 PM
Interesting idea, but I'm pretty sure most would identify Haydn with the symphony and Beethoven with the string quartet (due to his late ones), along with the other things you suggested.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on December 07, 2011, 01:56:19 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on December 06, 2011, 05:19:04 PM
Interesting idea, but I'm pretty sure most would identify Haydn with the symphony and Beethoven with the string quartet (due to his late ones), along with the other things you suggested.

Oh, yes, agreed - but I was trying to find two forms for each composer and associating different ones for each. 

But, it seems something that only I find interesting -  ::)

Such is life.

;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on December 07, 2011, 02:03:14 PM
Here's a new composer for me - Frantisek Ignác Antonín Tuma (1704-1774).  I am usually interested in Italian composers from the early Classical era, and am excited to find one I have never come across before.

I haven't heard this yet, but am looking forward to it eagerly

Frantisek Ignác Antonín Tuma: Partite, sonate e sinfonie
(http://www.jazzstore.com/store/product/rinaldo-alessandrini-frantisek-ignac-antonin-tuma-partite-sonate-e-sinfonie#)

(http://media.jazzstore.com/cache/w200/products-00-0024-00248631-rinaldo-alessandrini-frantisek-ignac-antonin-tuma-partite-sonate-e-sinfonie.jpg)

Some nice words from a Fanfare review:

Fanfare Magazine, Laura Ronai, Jan/Feb 2009
The present CD starts its contact with the world at large very auspiciously; featuring one of the best covers I have seen this year, it will easily attract the eye of the music-lover. Stark, simple, and beautiful, the photograph on the cover (by Mark Power) seems like a painting in its stunning graphic balance. The overall design respects and amplifies the effect, and the result could not be any better. The liner notes, by Alessandrini himself, are direct, informative, and elegantly written. If the playing were not of the highest level, it would be a bitter disappointment.

Fear not! The CD lives up to its promise. Alessandrini and his colleagues give us the sort of interpretation we have grown used to expecting from Concerto Italiano: full-blooded, technically exceptional, musically interesting at all times, intelligent, and absolutely convincing. It is hard to imagine that only seven musicians create the universe of sound displayed in these works. Even though the group cannot properly be called an orchestra, the illusion that we are dealing with a much larger ensemble is created by the huge dynamic scope obtained, the ever present sense of direction in the phrases, the subtle differences in timbre, the ample variety in articulations, and the sudden (and apt) changes in character--but also because all interpreters involved seem to share the same ideal regarding tone and sentiment. Cohesion, virility, contrast, complete engagement to the chosen repertoire, and a fine body of works to sink their teeth into. Who would not love the resulting performance? Most definitely, this one goes to the top shelf of my collection.


:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 07, 2011, 04:35:45 PM
Quote from: Arnold on December 06, 2011, 04:14:29 PM
A thought struck me as was listening to a Mozart piano concerto and I wanted to solicit some ideas from my fellow corner-dwellers.

Looking at the "Big 3", Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven - my thought is that while each one excelled in all the forms they composed in, for me, these are the forms that I find they really made their own and contributed, arguably, their most important statements:

Haydn: String Quartet & Piano Trio
Mozart: Piano Concerto and Opera
Beethoven: Symphony and Piano Sonata

As I said, they all wrote masterfully in all the forms they attempted.................

Hi Arnold - well, hard to compare these 3 great classical composers into so limited a number of categories, but for me, if you want to play this game and just select a couple of their greatest outputs, then my list would be below:

Haydn - Symphonies & String Quartets

Mozart - cannot choose 2 - he was outstanding in orchestral, chamber, opera, etc. music - he was the most versatile, IMHO - :)

Beethoven - Symphonies & Piano Sonatas - now one can easily expand on these choices - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on December 08, 2011, 05:13:29 PM
This CD comes out next week but I'm not in a position to order it just yet.  Needless to say, I expect a thorough review from at least one of you gents some time soon. 8)

[asin]B005OJJJAE[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2011, 04:42:54 AM
Just discovered this fabulous disc.

[asin]B00005LX8Q[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2011, 05:02:40 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2011, 04:42:54 AM
Just discovered this fabulous disc.

[asin]B00005LX8Q[/asin]

Looks highly interesting. I would rate my likelihood of ever getting it at around 1 in 500. I have been "signed up to be notified" on 5 or 6 disks, some for as long as 8 years. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2011, 05:51:08 AM
Quote from: Arnold on December 07, 2011, 02:03:14 PM
Here's a new composer for me - Frantisek Ignác Antonín Tuma (1704-1774).  I am usually interested in Italian composers from the early Classical era, and am excited to find one I have never come across before.

The music sounds interesting (heard clips at JPC). Ordered it. However, I believe the composer was Bohemian, not Italian.

Franz Ignaz Anton Tuma stammte aus Böhmen, 1704 in Adlerkosteletz geboren, wo sein Vater Organist war. Zur Ausbildung kam er zu den Jesuiten nach Prag --JPC product information

František Ignác Antonín Tůma (Kostelec nad Orlicí, Bohemia, October 2, 1704 – Vienna, January 30, 1774) was an important Czech composer of the Baroque era. Born in Kostelec nad Orlici, Bohemia, he lived the greater part of his life in Vienna --Wiki

Sarge
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on December 12, 2011, 06:05:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 12, 2011, 05:51:08 AM
The music sounds interesting (heard clips at JPC). Ordered it. However, I believe the composer was Bohemian, not Italian.

Franz Ignaz Anton Tuma stammte aus Böhmen, 1704 in Adlerkosteletz geboren, wo sein Vater Organist war. Zur Ausbildung kam er zu den Jesuiten nach Prag --JPC product information

František Ignác Antonín Tůma (Kostelec nad Orlicí, Bohemia, October 2, 1704 – Vienna, January 30, 1774) was an important Czech composer of the Baroque era. Born in Kostelec nad Orlici, Bohemia, he lived the greater part of his life in Vienna --Wiki

Sarge

Thanks for the correction.  I had thought the name was not typically Italian and am unsure why I thought he was from Italy.  The important thing is that the music is interesting, somewhat piquant, which is fine with me.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2011, 06:46:45 AM
Quote from: Arnold on December 12, 2011, 06:05:42 AM
Thanks for the correction.  I had thought the name was not typically Italian and am unsure why I thought he was from Italy.  The important thing is that the music is interesting, somewhat piquant, which is fine with me.

Yep Arnold - you have to be careful w/ those names and can go in either direction, e.g. I enjoy the short lived Bohemian composer Antonio Rosetti and have many discs; the wind music is outstanding - however, he 'italianized' his name for whatever reason - there are certainly other examples!  A short excerpt from this Wiki bio below - :)   Dave

QuoteAntonio Rosetti (c. 1750–June 30, 1792, born Anton Rösler, changed to Italianate form by 1773) was a classical era composer and double bass player, and was a contemporary of Haydn and Mozart.

Rosetti was born around 1750 in Litoměřice, a town in Northern Bohemia, and was originally called Franz Anton Rösler.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2011, 07:06:27 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2011, 04:42:54 AM
Just discovered this fabulous disc.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OJmMpGGmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BoccheriniKBSonatas/618085819_rAhRh-O.jpg)

Andrei - hello! :)  Gurn may be right for us across the pond - Amazon states unavailable - I don't go on waiting lists; but am curious from the cover - assume the Op. V works, i.e. G. 25-30 (1768) - are these played on clavichord or fortepiano (or other)?

I have the 2-CD set inserted above on Brilliant (licensed from Tactus) - includes the same Op. V as above but w/ fortepiano & violin; the other disc are the G. 143-148 works (Op. 23, 1-6) from 1781 according to the liner notes - these are basically keyboard (fortepiano) and strings (violin & cello); positive review reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=186348) from MusicWeb; a more negative review HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/boccherini-sonatas-for-keyboard-with-strings-accompaniment-w165646) from Allmusic (I don't fee that the reviewer is into the Tactus approach to these period recordings?).

Now I also have 'Clavier Quintets', but have no solo keyboard works by Boccherini despite my rather comprehensive collection - maybe our comments will bring forth a cornucopia of recommendations? :)  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2011, 07:30:06 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2011, 07:06:27 AM
Andrei - hello! :)  Gurn may be right for us across the pond - Amazon states unavailable - I don't go on waiting lists; but am curious from the cover - assume the Op. V works, i.e. G. 25-30 (1768) - are these played on clavichord or fortepiano (or other)?

Hi Dave! Actually I don't own the physical CD, I've been listening to it on Youtube here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgdQaRzPu4s). They are played on a harpsichord made by Marc Ducornet (http://www.ateliermarcducornet.com/new/en/intro.html) (with a very strong delineation between the high and low registers, something I don't hear too often in harpsichords). It is available on Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonates-in%C3%A9dites-pour-clavecin-Robert/dp/B00005LX8Q). Track listing here (http://classical.premieremusic.net/catalog/cd/BNL112909/). That's all the information I could gather, hope it helps somewhat.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2011, 07:38:40 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2011, 07:06:27 AM
Andrei - hello! :)  Gurn may be right for us across the pond - Amazon states unavailable - I don't go on waiting lists; but am curious from the cover - assume the Op. V works, i.e. G. 25-30 (1768) - are these played on clavichord or fortepiano (or other)?

I have the 2-CD set inserted above on Brilliant (licensed from Tactus) - includes the same Op. V as above but w/ fortepiano & violin; the other disc are the G. 143-148 works (Op. 23, 1-6) from 1781 according to the liner notes - these are basically keyboard (fortepiano) and strings (violin & cello); positive review reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=186348) from MusicWeb; a more negative review HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/boccherini-sonatas-for-keyboard-with-strings-accompaniment-w165646) from Allmusic (I don't fee that the reviewer is into the Tactus approach to these period recordings?).

Now I also have 'Clavier Quintets', but have no solo keyboard works by Boccherini despite my rather comprehensive collection - maybe our comments will bring forth a cornucopia of recommendations? :)  Dave

Dave,
Haven't researched this yet, but I am rather sure it's the same works (I have the Tactus, BTW). You know that string accompaniment was considered optional at the time.
Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2011, 07:30:06 AM
Hi Dave! Actually I don't own the physical CD, I've been listening to it on Youtube here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgdQaRzPu4s). They are played on a harpsichord made by Marc Ducornet (http://www.ateliermarcducornet.com/new/en/intro.html) (with a very strong delineation between the high and low registers, something I don't hear too often in harpsichords). It is available on Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonates-in%C3%A9dites-pour-clavecin-Robert/dp/B00005LX8Q). Track listing here (http://classical.premieremusic.net/catalog/cd/BNL112909/). That's all the information I could gather, hope it helps somewhat.

This is an interesting thing. The reason I say so is that in 1766 (67?) when these were composed, they turned off to be the earliest works composed specifically for the fortepiano with violin. Luigi wrote them for a specific lady player who actually had a fortepiano. Not known if his ploy was successful. But anyway, the fact that they are played on a harpsichord, even a cool one as you describe, is much more surprising than that they dropped off the violin part.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2011, 07:56:45 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 12, 2011, 07:30:06 AM
Hi Dave! Actually I don't own the physical CD, I've been listening to it on Youtube here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgdQaRzPu4s). They are played on a harpsichord made by Marc Ducornet (http://www.ateliermarcducornet.com/new/en/intro.html) (with a very strong delineation between the high and low registers, something I don't hear too often in harpsichords). It is available on Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonates-in%C3%A9dites-pour-clavecin-Robert/dp/B00005LX8Q). Track listing here (http://classical.premieremusic.net/catalog/cd/BNL112909/). That's all the information I could gather, hope it helps somewhat.

Thanks, Andrei, for the links - I listened to a couple of minutes on YouTube - appears that the entire album was uploaded although the sound via that source is not great, the harpsichord does indeed sound wonderful as you describe - will add to my 'wish list'!  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on December 12, 2011, 08:35:08 AM
I forget when I got this disc -

[asin]B000083MCR[/asin]

I was looking to see what I had by the Festetics Quartet, and lo and behold found that I had this recording squirreled away; and indeed, a very nice recording it is.  And from a composer for whom I have no other music and still know nothing about ...   

Other than that these quartets are gems.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on December 12, 2011, 08:51:59 AM
Quote from: Arnold on December 12, 2011, 08:35:08 AM
I forget when I got this disc -

[asin]B000083MCR[/asin]

I was looking to see what I had by the Festetics Quartet, and lo and behold found that I had this recording squirreled away; and indeed, a very nice recording it is.  And from a composer for whom I have no other music and still know nothing about ...   

Other than that these quartets are gems.

:)

They've got 3 fine discs of obscure string 4s on Hungaroton by Bengraf, Grill and Spech, respectively.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2011, 04:29:24 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 12, 2011, 07:38:40 AM
Dave,
Haven't researched this yet, but I am rather sure it's the same works (I have the Tactus, BTW). You know that string accompaniment was considered optional at the time.
This is an interesting thing. The reason I say so is that in 1766 (67?) when these were composed, they turned off to be the earliest works composed specifically for the fortepiano with violin. Luigi wrote them for a specific lady player who actually had a fortepiano. Not known if his ploy was successful. But anyway, the fact that they are played on a harpsichord, even a cool one as you describe, is much more surprising than that they dropped off the violin part.  :)

Hi Gurn - thanks for the comments!  As we know, many of these works from this mid-18th period were let's say 'wide open', i.e. written w/ many possibilities, i.e. single vs. multiple instruments and for different instruments, so these works are of interest for this variety!  Bottom line seems to be that these works could be played alone on keyboard or combined w/ some strings!  LOVE IT! Is the 18th century the only period that such variety and freedom was available for choosing HOW to perform a composer's composition(s)?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2011, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2011, 04:29:24 PM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the comments!  As we know, many of these works from this mid-18th period were let's say 'wide open', i.e. written w/ many possibilities, i.e. single vs. multiple instruments and for different instruments, so these works are of interest for this variety!  Bottom line seems to be that these works could be played alone on keyboard or combined w/ some strings!  LOVE IT! Is the 18th century the only period that such variety and freedom was available for choosing HOW to perform a composer's composition(s)?  Dave :)

Dave,
Yes, I love it too. Great deal of freedom, nothing 'written in stone'. Things actually composed (like some of Mozart's piano concertos) so they could be played by anything from a full orchestra to a piano quartet and nothing lost!

Well, I think that the Classical wasn't all of it, it was the end of it though. Post-Beethoven, freedom disappeared. Written out cadenzas and all. I think it was a bit of a step back for music, even though the intent behind it was a good one; to keep the music pure. But look how many works of Bach for which there is no sure knowledge of what instrument he intended. And even of Haydn, for that matter. Everything about the 19th century militated towards inflexibility, even in music. Sad but true. I think that's why I don't care much for post-Schubertian music (with a few exceptions to prove the rule). :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTriosMathotManzeLindencover.jpg)  Tini Mathot (Fortepiano) \ Andrew Manze (Violin) \ Jaap ter Linden (Cello) - Hob 15_11 Trio in Eb for Keyboard & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on December 13, 2011, 02:16:45 AM
This Immerseel guy continues to turn my crank. Now it's Mozart who sounds brand new to me. (A BRO bargain, by the way.) Simply and energetically gorgeous.

[asin]B00006JIPV[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 13, 2011, 07:25:38 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on December 13, 2011, 02:16:45 AM
This Immerseel guy continues to turn my crank. Now it's Mozart who sounds brand new to me. (A BRO bargain, by the way.) Simply and energetically gorgeous.

[asin]B00006JIPV[/asin]

Hi Chas - that looks like a great disc so I went to Amazon to checkout some reviews which led to some googling of the Sony DRM rootkit fiasco of a few years back - check out this old GMG thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=5804.0) - should be fine if just played on your stereo; and do not know if in newer releases of this disc whether Zig Zag removed this nasty from the recording?  Although I own a number of Zig Zag CDs (and love the label), I was not sure about their relationship w/ Sony?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on December 13, 2011, 07:50:22 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 13, 2011, 07:25:38 AM
Hi Chas - that looks like a great disc so I went to Amazon to checkout some reviews which led to some googling of the Sony DRM rootkit fiasco of a few years back - check out this old GMG thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=5804.0) - should be fine if just played on your stereo; and do not know if in newer releases of this disc whether Zig Zag removed this nasty from the recording?  Although I own a number of Zig Zag CDs (and love the label), I was not sure about their relationship w/ Sony?  Dave :)

That was a good little thread. Thanks. There is indeed a small SDRM imprint on the discs themselves. I'll make sure they never see the inside of my computer. Happily, I use trusty old TASCAMs for most of my listening anyway. May others be warned!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: PaulSC on December 13, 2011, 12:09:30 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 12, 2011, 04:43:26 PM
Dave,
Yes, I love it too. Great deal of freedom, nothing 'written in stone'. Things actually composed (like some of Mozart's piano concertos) so they could be played by anything from a full orchestra to a piano quartet and nothing lost!

Well, I think that the Classical wasn't all of it, it was the end of it though. Post-Beethoven, freedom disappeared. Written out cadenzas and all. I think it was a bit of a step back for music, even though the intent behind it was a good one; to keep the music pure. But look how many works of Bach for which there is no sure knowledge of what instrument he intended. And even of Haydn, for that matter. Everything about the 19th century militated towards inflexibility, even in music. Sad but true. I think that's why I don't care much for post-Schubertian music (with a few exceptions to prove the rule).
You know, I'm not sure that's true. Even if you look at all the arrangements the second-Viennese-school composers made of each other's works, you've got more than a few exceptions. And of course later in the twentieth century there are plenty of examples of music whose instrumentation is wide open, but I can imagine there are plenty of other reasons why you wouldn't care much for it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2011, 12:39:41 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on December 13, 2011, 12:09:30 PM
You know, I'm not sure that's true. Even if you look at all the arrangements the second-Viennese-school composers made of each other's works, you've got more than a few exceptions. And of course later in the twentieth century there are plenty of examples of music whose instrumentation is wide open, but I can imagine there are plenty of other reasons why you wouldn't care much for it.

Yeah, I was moving ahead into the 19th century but not really beyond. I have no doubt that you are correct about some things that are newer than that, although I admit to a bit of surprise about it. I would believe that it is not based in the same concept that prevailed in early music, which is that the composer really didn't know who was going to show up that day, so he left it an open question. Or, in that Mozart example, he wanted to make sure the publisher could sell as many scores as possible so he wrote it in a most flexible way in terms of instrumentation. That may be closer to the 2nd Viennese idea. Don't know. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: PaulSC on December 13, 2011, 03:03:32 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 13, 2011, 12:39:41 PM
Yeah, I was moving ahead into the 19th century but not really beyond. I have no doubt that you are correct about some things that are newer than that, although I admit to a bit of surprise about it. I would believe that it is not based in the same concept that prevailed in early music, which is that the composer really didn't know who was going to show up that day, so he left it an open question. Or, in that Mozart example, he wanted to make sure the publisher could sell as many scores as possible so he wrote it in a most flexible way in terms of instrumentation. That may be closer to the 2nd Viennese idea. Don't know. :)

8)
Oh, I'm sure you're right that the concepts had shifted. One common pattern with works of the second Viennese school is the reduction of large orchestral scores into versions for solo piano, piano plus voice, or chamber ensemble. I don't know a great deal about what motivated these, but it seems likely that performances by a full orchestra of this ultra-modern music were so rare that versions for reduced forces filled a gap, enabling some kind of public performance to take place. Or not so public: Schoenberg's Society for Private Musical Performance presented chamber-ensemble arrangements of several orchestral works by Webern, Berg, and Schoenberg.

Examples of this pattern include:
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 01:54:04 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 12, 2011, 04:43:26 PM
Well, I think that the Classical wasn't all of it, it was the end of it though. Post-Beethoven, freedom disappeared. Written out cadenzas and all. I think it was a bit of a step back for music, even though the intent behind it was a good one; to keep the music pure. But look how many works of Bach for which there is no sure knowledge of what instrument he intended. And even of Haydn, for that matter. Everything about the 19th century militated towards inflexibility, even in music. Sad but true. I think that's why I don't care much for post-Schubertian music (with a few exceptions to prove the rule). :)

Gurn, you love freedom and flexibility so much and it is a good thing; why would you then object to using a piano for Bach or Haydn?  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 04:20:08 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 01:54:04 AM
Gurn, you love freedom and flexibility so much and it is a good thing; why would you then object to using a piano for Bach or Haydn?  :D

Because it sounds like crap. :)

You are talking about flexibility over time, which is not a desirable thing to me. I am talking about flexibility within a time frame, constrained by the necessities of the day, but none of them unforeseeable. If I (a Baroque composer) write a melodic line that can be played by a violin, an oboe, a flute or recorder with equally melodious results, and I do this because on any given day in the music room, that's who might be there, then that is simply foresightful (and rather clever). If I saw the future well enough to know about what the instruments of that time could do and sound like, then that is something entirely different. And I would submit to you that they couldn't, even the smart ones like Bach. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2011, 04:27:23 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 04:20:08 AM
Because it sounds like crap. :)

Bach on the piano? Does not! ; )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 04:28:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2011, 04:27:23 AM
Bach on the piano? Does not! ; )

Sez you.   0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2011, 04:32:46 AM
Oh, yeah? Yer mother wears a perruque! : )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 04:36:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2011, 04:32:46 AM
Oh, yeah? Yer mother wears a perruque! : )

Well, her bald spot was a problem, can't blame her.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2011, 04:42:45 AM
Carolyn Jones wore a wig for the role of Morticia Addams, too.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 04:46:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2011, 04:42:45 AM
Carolyn Jones wore a wig for the role of Morticia Addams, too.

No surprise, but notice that Morticia played Bach too; on the harpsichord!! 'nuff said. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 04:47:16 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 04:20:08 AM
You are talking about flexibility over time, which is not a desirable thing to me.

But this would basically bar contemporary dilettanti from playing any Baroque and Classical music at all. Not anyone today can have a harpsichord or a clavichord in their home. If they're fortunate enough in terms of money and space they'll have a (cottage) piano. For someone whose supply of both is very short even an electronic keyboard might do just fine. So, they pick up Bach, or Scarlatti, or Haydn, or Mozart, or Boccherini and are preparing to give it a try - when suddenly they hear Gurn admonishing them: No, don't do it at all! It'll sound like crap and it's not what they had in mind when composing their music. They meant flexibility but only for their contemporaries. Sorry, you were born too late for that. I would submit to you that this is as un-Baroque-ish and un-Classical-ish as it gets, given that much, if not most, of that music was written precisely for cultivated amateurs.  ;D


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on December 15, 2011, 04:53:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2011, 04:27:23 AM
Bach on the piano? Does not! ; )

I agree.  I have been enjoying some recent Angela Hewitt CDs quite a bit.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 04:53:52 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 04:47:16 AM
But this would basically bar contemporary dilettanti from playing any Baroque and Classical music at all. Not anyone today can have a harpsichord or a clavichord in their home. If they're fortunate enough in terms of money and space they'll have a (cottage) piano. For someone whose supply of both is very short even an electronic keyboard might do just fine. So, they pick up Bach, or Scarlatti, or Haydn, or Mozart, or Boccherini and are preparing to give it a try - when suddenly they hear Gurn admonishing them: No, don't do it at all! It'll sound like crap and it's not what they had in mind when composing their music. They meant flexibility but only for their contemporaries. Sorry, you were born too late for that. I would submit to you that this is as un-Baroque-ish and un-Classical-ish as it gets, given that much, if not most, of that music was written precisely for cultivated amateurs.  ;D

Yes, but no. You are carrying things beyond my much more humble view. My thing is this; anyone can do anything they want to do, I'm only going to invest my money in things that I like. IOW, if YOU want to have unprotected sex, it isn't ME that's gonna get Schuberted by it. :D  It may very well sound like crap when they play it too, but as long as it is their cottage and not mine, where's the harm? I am a very, very laissez-faire kind of guy.   0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2011, 04:59:54 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 04:46:09 AM
No surprise, but notice that Morticia played Bach too; on the harpsichord!! 'nuff said. :)

8)

Dude, the harpsichord in the Addams house emphasized their eccentricity : )

I don't recall that Lurch ever played Bach on the 1503 Krumpnik, come to thing on 't . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:05:48 AM
Gurn, do you play any instrument?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 05:09:58 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:05:48 AM
Gurn, do you play any instrument?

Guitar, mandolin, tenor banjo. In earlier times I played trumpet & baritone tuba. Doesn't matter though, I don't intend to find my way into Bach like Bela Fleck has... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2011, 05:10:49 AM
Baritone horn arrangement of the solo cello suites, Gurn . . . make it happen!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 05:14:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 15, 2011, 05:10:49 AM
Baritone horn arrangement of the solo cello suites, Gurn . . . make it happen!

Can you imagine?   ::)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 15, 2011, 05:16:02 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 05:14:32 AM
Can you imagine?   ::)

8)
Sounds great to me. Seriously.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:16:27 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 05:09:58 AM
Guitar, mandolin, tenor banjo. In earlier times I played trumpet & baritone tuba.

Gottfried Uwe Reinhard Nepomuk Blanston - Variazioni sopra la tema della Gatta di Sig. Giuseppe Haydn, per mandolino con banjo tenore obligatto GURNVW I:1

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 05:19:05 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 15, 2011, 05:16:02 AM
Sounds great to me. Seriously.

Yeah, but it wouldn't with me playing it. :D  Maybe someone from the Canadian Brass... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on December 15, 2011, 05:20:07 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:16:27 AM
Gottfried Uwe Reinhard Nepomuk Blanston - Variazioni sopra la tema della Gatta di Sig. Giuseppe Haydn, per mandolino con banjo tenore obligatto GURNVW I:1

That made me laugh so hard and boisterous that the Cabernet wine that was in my mouth spilled all over the floor. :o ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 05:20:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:16:27 AM
Gottfried Uwe Reinhard Nepomuk Blanston - Variazioni sopra la tema della Gatta di Sig. Giuseppe Haydn, per mandolino con banjo tenore obligatto GURNVW I:1

Sure, you can do that cat thing on a banjo easily. Add in a dog and another banjo and it will be Deliverance Pt II in no time. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 05:22:13 AM
Quote from: Harry on December 15, 2011, 05:20:07 AM
That made me laugh so hard and boisterous that the Cabernet wine that was in my mouth spilled all over the floor. :o ;D

Now you see the liver-saving value of coming to the Corner from time to time, Harry. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:22:50 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 05:22:13 AM
Now you see the liver-saving value of coming to the Corner from time to time, Harry. :)

My turn to ROTFL. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on December 15, 2011, 05:24:13 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 05:22:13 AM
Now you see the liver-saving value of coming to the Corner from time to time, Harry. :)

8)

8) 8) 8) :-*
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:24:41 AM
OTOH, when wine is accidentally spilled on the floor Romanians say some dead person was thirsty. This time it must have been good ol' Papa...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 05:26:47 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:24:41 AM
OTOH, when wine is accidentally spilled on the floor Romanians say some dead person was thirsty. This time it must have been good ol' Papa...

Hope it is so. We owed him a glass or two. :)

One of my speakers just crapped out. I am depressed. :'(  See y'all in a while, I have to do something about this. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on December 15, 2011, 05:26:59 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:24:41 AM
OTOH, when wine is accidentally spilled on the floor Romanians say some dead person was thirsty. This time it must have been good ol' Papa...

The cat from the neighbour licked the stuff up, its totally clean on my floor, and the cat keeps falling. ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:28:47 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 05:26:47 AM
One of my speakers just crapped out.

They too have a harpsichord limit...

(EDIT: Typo corrected)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on December 15, 2011, 05:30:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:28:47 AM
They too have a harspichord limit...


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha ;D ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 05:30:09 AM
Quote from: Harry on December 15, 2011, 05:26:59 AM
The cat from the neighbour licked the stuff up, its totally clean on my floor, and the cat keeps falling. ;D

Cat's name wasn't Wolfgang by any chance? Miiiiaaaaaoooooowww :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on December 15, 2011, 05:31:21 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 05:30:09 AM
Cat's name wasn't Wolfgang by any chance? Miiiiaaaaaoooooowww :D

8)

No, Diderich, there must be a composer with that name........ ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:47:22 AM
Gentlemen, I'm off to a concert with KV 158, 159, 285 and 285b.  8)

See you tomorrow!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 05:50:50 AM
Quote from: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:47:22 AM
Gentlemen, I'm off to a concert with KV 158, 159, 285 and 285b.  8)

See you tomorrow!  :)

Splendid. Don't get too close to that modern flute, it will cut right through your ear drums. :D  As for me, I am going to use this rare vacation day that I've taken to go play golf in the rain. I can hardly wait!  :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 15, 2011, 05:54:21 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 05:50:50 AM
Splendid. Don't get too close to that modern flute, it will cut right through your ear drums. :D

Seems that the best instrument for you would be a time machine...  ;D :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 16, 2011, 05:54:18 AM
My ears somehow managed to escape intact after the onslaught of the modern flute and are now hearing  another horror in Gurn's book.  ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6188kHOXJTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on December 17, 2011, 12:08:40 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kf2EWGJfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Following a lead in the bargain thread, I ordered the Haitink LSO box of Beethoven symphonies last week. I was hesitant because, despite the give-away price and the reputation of the set, I've been so under the Immerseel Beethovenian spell that I thought I might be wasting my money. Not so. I've been listening to the 3rd and 6th symphonies from this set these last couple of days, and revelling in the wonderfully expressive articulation of Haitink's performances, detailed and powerful. All the power of someone like Veronese, painting with the whole arm, yet still delivering the most subtle nuances. I didn't even stop to think 'This is a modern instrument performance': I just accepted it from the start on its own terms, simply because the thing was so good, so convincing. The Eroica was tremendously impressive, and the Pastoral full of delicate touches.

I'm pleased about this; I felt uneasy about only being able to get enthusiastic about Beethoven symphonies via one particular set of PI performances, and I now discover this isn't the case. This, too, is rock and roll; but it's Abbey Road rock & roll, as opposed to Beatles first album. Or Elvis '78 TV Special, as opposed to the '50s Hillbilly Cat. Nice to know that I'm not stuck in a rut. Well, not this particular rut, anyway.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on December 17, 2011, 08:01:20 AM
Quote from: Elgarian on December 17, 2011, 12:08:40 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kf2EWGJfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Following a lead in the bargain thread, I ordered the Haitink LSO box of Beethoven symphonies last week. I was hesitant because, despite the give-away price and the reputation of the set, I've been so under the Immerseel Beethovenian spell that I thought I might be wasting my money. Not so. I've been listening to the 3rd and 6th symphonies from this set these last couple of days, and revelling in the wonderfully expressive articulation of Haitink's performances, detailed and powerful. All the power of someone like Veronese, painting with the whole arm, yet still delivering the most subtle nuances. I didn't even stop to think 'This is a modern instrument performance': I just accepted it from the start on its own terms, simply because the thing was so good, so convincing. The Eroica was tremendously impressive, and the Pastoral full of delicate touches.

I'm pleased about this; I felt uneasy about only being able to get enthusiastic about Beethoven symphonies via one particular set of PI performances, and I now discover this isn't the case. This, too, is rock and roll; but it's Abbey Road rock & roll, as opposed to Beatles first album. Or Elvis '78 TV Special, as opposed to the '50s Hillbilly Cat. Nice to know that I'm not stuck in a rut. Well, not this particular rut, anyway.

I love your reviews Elgarian. I haven't put away my modern-instruments Beethoven either, as much as I LOVE the Immerseel Beethoven 5th, my absolute favorite is Maazel's account with the Cleveland Orchestra on CBS records. As for the many great Beethoven 9th's out there, Abbado and Furtwangler remain my monastery and abode.

8)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on December 18, 2011, 01:13:52 PM
As the notes say, Handelian choruses and galant arias. The first disc made no particular impression, the second was solid enough to rate a second listen right away, and the third (just ended! and also available on Helios, Amazon notwithstanding) is fabulous.

[asin]B000A7XJOC[/asin]
[asin]B000GCG8GC[/asin]
[asin]B000009PZ9[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Elgarian on December 19, 2011, 12:35:16 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on December 18, 2011, 01:13:52 PM
As the notes say, Handelian choruses and galant arias. The first disc made no particular impression, the second was solid enough to rate a second listen right away, and the third (just ended! and also available on Helios, Amazon notwithstanding) is fabulous.

[asin]B000A7XJOC[/asin]
[asin]B000GCG8GC[/asin]
[asin]B000009PZ9[/asin]

Bet you a million pounds 20p that if you go back to the first CD you'll enjoy it a lot more than you did the first time round, having meanwhile got yourself into the Linley 'groove'. (My favourite of those three delightful CDs is the one with the 'Tempest' music.)

I always give young Tom an appreciative thought when I'm in Bath - at his birthplace in Abbey Green, and at the later family residence on the Royal Crescent.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 20, 2011, 10:01:41 AM
Just left the short post quoted below in the 'listening thread' (w/ an added pic) - decided to expand a little here which may be of interest.

Lidl (ca. 1740-1789) was born in Austria and was a virtuoso on the viola da gamba & baryton; he was employed by Nikolaus Esterházy and was part of the prince's orchestra from 1769-1774, and might have studied composition under Haydn?  The disc contains a half dozen baryton trios performed by the Esterhazy Trio (same group who did the 21-disc Haydn box of baryton works!).  The baryton (a.k.a. viola di bordone) used in this recording is a copy after one by J.J. Stadlmann which was played by Prince Esterhazy and is now in the National Museum in Budapest.  So, if you like the baryton and want a composer other than Haydn, this one is recommended!

The Haydn single disc includes Nos. 42, 59, 66, 70, 96, 101, & 113; of course these are all in the BIG BOX and select ones in other recordings that I own, such as those w/ John Hsu.  Guido Balestracci is on the baryton (added a pic of the group below for this post which shows the performers and their instruments); the instrument was made by Pierre Bohr, Milano 2008 after one by Simon Schodler, Passau 1785 - :)


QuoteSome new arrivals featuring the Baryton:

Lidl, Andreas - Divertimenti - Baryton Trios w/ the Esterhazy Trio (same group who put together the BIG BOX of Haydn's baryton works)!

Haydn, Joseph - Divertimenti - Baryton Trios w/ the performers on the cover art; of course, all of these are in the BIG BOX mentioned above, but if you want just 1 disc of these works, this one is excellent - :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5sbWWVG/0/O/LidlBarytonTrios.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-c2sk4Hh/0/O/HaydnBarytonBalestracci.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-FGknF73/0/O/HaydnBalestracci.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on January 04, 2012, 08:08:34 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jzSMZTP0Qu0/TwNCd667pdI/AAAAAAAAVXw/VyjAXVY19D0/s1600/Cover.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PAQv0V8HNgg/TwNCfcH8HSI/AAAAAAAAVYA/6SiwC3RvIUQ/s1600/Back.jpg)

Has anyone heard this? I just got it, but haven't jumped in yet. I never heard of Manuel Canales  8)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on January 04, 2012, 11:42:08 AM
Quote from: Leo K on January 04, 2012, 08:08:34 AM
Has anyone heard this? I just got it, but haven't jumped in yet. I never heard of Manuel Canales  8)

Yes. There are 2 such discs from Guido's Hand. The music is nervous, preoccupied. Engaging, formally Haydnesque, but one feels as though one is listening to someone worry.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on January 04, 2012, 11:49:41 AM
I got this a while back but only just now got around to it -

[asin]B000SOME16[/asin]

I have heard of this composer, but never heard his music until now.  Very nice. 

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 08:55:56 AM
Hi Arnold - I own about a half dozen discs of Eberl's music, but not the one you are discussing so will be quite interested in your comments?

But, a 3-disc collection of his Keyboard Sonatas w/ John Khouri performed on 2 different fortepianos (one a pedal instrument) is the most interesting in my collection - I actually exchanged a few emails w/ Khouri and he sent me some pictures regarding the restoration of some of his early pianos - if curious, check HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.msg460795.html#msg460795) in the 'Old Musical Instrument' thread - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MPzyLNWRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hZZapImEL._AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on January 09, 2012, 04:08:45 AM
First spin in quite a while for this one. It's remarkably good.

[asin]B00005QHS3[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2012, 04:16:01 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on January 09, 2012, 04:08:45 AM
First spin in quite a while for this one. It's remarkably good.

[asin]B00005QHS3[/asin]

Ah yes, the Brunetti string quartets. That disk came to my attention through this column and I have always been pleased with that fact. You're right; remarkably good. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on January 09, 2012, 06:57:18 PM
Question relating more to the performers than the music itself...

Received this as part of an order off of Hyperion's Please Buy Me page.

For those not familiar with it, the page is where Hyperion lists what are supposedly those recordings which have remained longest unsold in the recent past.  In theory if any purchases one of the CDs, it automatically become ineligible.  I'm not sure if it actually works that way--I've seen CDs I ordered before from the page pop up two months later--but the discounted prices are usually worth it if the recording is interesting in any way. (And if your order is over 20GBP, you start getting a volume discount to make it an even better deal.) I paid rather less than Amazon MP's price.
[asin]B0012Y1HJG[/asin]
For those not familiar with these quintets, they are scored for flute, two violins, viola and 'cello; are relatively short (between 10 and 14 minutes long, with the average being about 11), and except for the last one, in two movements.  Number six, which has the title "Los Parajedas" is in three movements, Entrada/Marcia, Galope, and Entrada/Marcia, which is an almost but not exactly the same repeat of the first movement.  They were published in 1775 as Opus 25, so you may see references to them with that designation.  The recording was made in 2007 and apparently released in 2008.  Musically, it's up to Boccherini's usual standards.

The ensemble involved is Auser Musici; this was their first recording for Hyperion, and Amazon shows a couple more for Hyperion and Tactus. They are HIP, and led by flautist Carlo Ipata.  Luigi Puxeddu is the cellist  (on this recording at least).  Is any familiar with them, and if so, are their other recording worth getting? Besides those already available, they have this one coming out soon on Hyperion.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m-vApnJlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2012, 04:21:41 AM
That's an interesting-looking disk, Jeffrey. I can't recall having those works (seems like my flute quintets are Op 16 although not being home, I can't tell). I haven't heard of those performers either, although in the PI world, where chamber sized ensembles pop up and disappear by the dozens per year, that isn't unusual. I need to check out my stash at home and then look further into this, thanks for bringing it up. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on January 10, 2012, 04:29:08 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 09, 2012, 06:57:18 PM
[asin]B0012Y1HJG[/asin]

I have this disc, and don't remember a thing about it!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 04:35:35 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 09, 2012, 06:57:18 PM
For those not familiar with these quintets, they are scored for flute, two violins, viola and 'cello[...]

Musicological note:  That is what would traditionally be meant by the term flute (or piano, or clarinet) quintet: a string quartet plus flute (or piano, or clarinet).

(Of course, in a thread such as this where some of the music may fall outside of what subsequently became standard terminology, clarity is always a plus.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on January 10, 2012, 04:46:31 AM
I find the variety of classical era string quintet lineups interesting. Boccherini used 2 cellos, Mozart 2 violas. In the latter's quintet arrangement of Eine Kleine etc he used a bass. The spice of life and all that!

ADDED: Eybler used a bass too, thus violin, 2 violas, cello, bass. Makes a lovely texture.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 04:55:24 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on January 10, 2012, 04:46:31 AM
Boccherini used 2 cellos, Mozart 2 violas.

The favorite instrument of each, IIRC.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 04:57:40 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on January 10, 2012, 04:46:31 AM
I find the variety of classical era string quintet lineups interesting. Boccherini used 2 cellos, Mozart 2 violas.

That's the variety, right there : )  Thus you read at times of Mozart's as viola quintets (string quartet plus [extra] viola), or Boccherini's cello quintets (you get the drill).

I should be surprised is there was much play for a quintet consisting of three violins, one each of viola and cello . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 04:58:20 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 04:55:24 AM
The favorite instrument of each, IIRC.  :)

One of these days, I'll write a cowbell quintet, you'll see . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on January 10, 2012, 07:17:03 AM
This is a fine disc that seems to have very garnered little attention from the reviewers:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C0UfwUOdL._SS400_.jpg)

Some info on the Pleyel Trio Wien:

QuoteThe Pleyel Trio Wien was founded as a piano trio in 1998 by the Croatian pianist Hrvoje Jugovic, the German violinist Markus Hoffmann and the Austrian cellist Günther Schagerl. The three musicians trained at their respective universities for music and met in the Austrian metropolis with a mutual desire: to perform music of the classical period, thus the musical repertoire of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th centuries, on period instruments.
RTRH (http://www.pleyeltrio.com/en/info.html)

Some info on Ignaz Pleyel:

QuoteHe was born in Ruppersthal in Lower Austria, the son of a schoolmaster named Martin Pleyel. He was the 24th of 38 children in the family.[1] While still young he probably studied with Johann Baptist Vanhal, and from 1772 he became the pupil of Joseph Haydn in Eisenstadt. As with Beethoven, born 13 years later, Pleyel benefited in his study from the sponsorship of aristocracy, in this case Count Ladislaus Erdődy (1746–1786). Pleyel evidently had a close relationship with Haydn, who considered him to be a superb student.
RTRH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Pleyel)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 09:09:27 AM
Had quite a Kuhlau afternoon. These

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41r2E1z%2BNXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51daAbhLkxL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

are excellent discs, in the quality of both music and performance.

Friedrich Kuhlau (1786-1832)

The son of an army regimental musician, grandson of an oboist and town musician, and nephew of an organist and town musician in Aalborg, Friedrich Kuhlau was born in 1786 at Uelzen, near Hanover, and moved with his family successively to Lüneburg and Brunswick. In Lüneburg he had piano lessons and started writing music, and in Brunswick completed his early education at the Katharineum. At the turn of the century he went with his parents to Hamburg, studying there with the organist, composer and mathematician Christian Friedrich Gottlieb Schwenke, who had succeeded C.P.E.Bach, his own teacher, as Hamburg Stadtkantor in 1788 and had held the position of organist at the Katherinenkirche since 1783. A year earlier C.P.E.Bach had arranged for Schwenke to study with Marpurg and Kirnberger in Berlin. In 1804 Kuhlau began his career as a pianist and remained in Hamburg until the occupation of the city by Napoleon in 1810 and the compulsion to military service, from which it seems blindness in one eye, the result of a childhood accident, would not have excluded him. He then took refuge in Copenhagen under an assumed name, attempting to establish himself there as a pianist and composer and making his first appearance as a pianist at the court in 1811. In 1813 he was naturalised and the following year was appointed a court chamber musician, a position that was unpaid until 1818, when token payment was allowed. In the same year he was joined in Denmark by his parents and sister, making it necessary to earn more money for their support, increasing his work as a concert pianist and as a teacher. In 1815 he had enjoyed success with a Singspiel, Røverborgen (Robbers' Castle), at the Royal Theatre, where he found employment for a season as chorus-master and was able to have his first opera staged. At the same time he was winning a reputation as a pianist throughout Scandinavia. He visited Berlin and Leipzig on various occasions and was twice in Vienna, on the second occasion in 1825 spending an evening with Beethoven and his friends, of which subsequent memories were hazy. The party had walked in the countryside, before dining at an inn, where the consumption of champagne had a similar effect on Beethoven's powers of recall, although he had written a canon punning on Kuhlau's name, to the words Kühl, nicht lau (Cool, not lukewarm), which he sent to Kuhlau, while the latter had responded with a canon on the name of Bach. In 1828 Kuhlau wrote music to celebrate a royal wedding, Elverhøj (The Elf Hill) and was awarded the title of professor with an increased stipend. In 1831 a fire at his home at Lyngby, near Copenhagen, where he had rented a house since 1826, a year after the death of his parents, not only destroyed many of his unpublished compositions and writings but had a deleterious effect on his health, leading to his death the following year.


Love the bold part.  :D

For Elverhoj I can safely recommend this disc:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EwtZl07XL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

His music belongs firmly to the Early Romanticism (or as Gurn puts it, the Classico-Romantic continuum) , heavily influenced by Beethoven but with a strong Danish folkloric undertone. His compositions for flute in different chamber combinations are particularly noteworthy, gaining him the nickname "Beethoven of the flute" (no small achievement IMO).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 11, 2012, 04:31:41 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 09:09:27 AM
For Elverhoj I can safely recommend this disc:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EwtZl07XL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I bought this on your rec and have enjoyed it quite a bit. The piano sonatas on Naxos are quite good as well.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on January 17, 2012, 05:43:15 AM
"We consider classical music to be the epitome and quintessence of our culture, because it is that culture's clearest, most significant gesture and expression. In this music we possess the heritage of classical antiquity and Christianity, a spirit of serenely cheerful and brave piety, a superbly chivalric morality. For in the final analysis every important cultural gesture comes down to a morality, a model for human behavior concentrated into a gesture. As we know, between 1500 and 1800 a wide variety of music was made; styles and means of expression were extremely variegated; but the spirit, or rather the morality, was everywhere the same. The human attitude of which classical music is the expression is always the same; it is always based on the same kind of insight into life and strives for the same kind of victory over blind chance. Classical music as gesture signifies knowledge of the tragedy of the human condition, affirmation of human destiny, courage, cheerful serenity. The grace of a minuet by Handel or Couperin, the sensuality sublimated into delicate gesture to be found in many Italian composers or in Mozart, the tranquil, composed readiness for death in Bach -- always there may be heard in these works a defiance, a death-defying intrepidity, a gallantry, and a note of superhuman laughter, of immortal gay serenity." - Hermann Hesse, The Glass Bead Game.

Is this right, or pure rhetoric? (OTOH, rhetoric is part and parcel of Classicism, as Gurn insists...)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on January 27, 2012, 02:23:23 AM
A new disc of string 4s by le divin Hyacinthe is on the way. Opp. 1/1 and 3/1 we've had on discs from Quatuors Franz Joseph et Mosaiques, but 3/3 I haven't heard. Don't know whether or not this is the same Cambini Quartet that put out 2 sets of Canales and one of Teixidor on La Ma de Guido.

[asin]B0042GNDWA[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 04:17:58 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 17, 2012, 05:43:15 AM

Is this right, or pure rhetoric? (OTOH, rhetoric is part and parcel of Classicism, as Gurn insists...)

Can it not be both? The purpose of rhetoric is to postulate correctness and then argue for it. That in itself presupposes that some thing are right. There are those who would say that rightness and wrongness do not really exist. I believe they do; if not in all things, at least in this thing. Classical music elevates the spirit of those who partake, making them part of a continuum of mankind who share the same elevation of the spirit while listening. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 04:19:31 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on January 27, 2012, 02:23:23 AM
A new disc of string 4s by le divin Hyacinthe is on the way. Opp. 1/1 and 3/1 we've had on discs from Quatuors Franz Joseph et Mosaiques, but 3/3 I haven't heard. Don't know whether or not this is the same Cambini Quartet that put out 2 sets of Canales and one of Teixidor on La Ma de Guido.

[asin]B0042GNDWA[/asin]

That looks like a winner. Such a nice composer! Thanks for pointing it up, it's on the wish list. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Ataraxia on January 27, 2012, 04:20:47 AM
I was listening to Beethoven and Mozart last night, Gurn. Tried some Harnoncourt Mozart but didn't like the sound of his band.  :P
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 04:33:01 AM
Quote from: Ataraxia on January 27, 2012, 04:20:47 AM
I was listening to Beethoven and Mozart last night, Gurn. Tried some Harnoncourt Mozart but didn't like the sound of his band.  :P

Odd thing there, Dave. As fond as I am of that group and conductor, the only disk of theirs that I really can't abide is also Mozart. Not so much the sound of the band as the tempos used, which are deadly slow and dull, to the point of making the music unrecognizable. I pretty much stick to others when it comes to Mozart. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Ataraxia on January 27, 2012, 04:36:04 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 27, 2012, 04:33:01 AM
Odd thing there, Dave. As fond as I am of that group and conductor, the only disk of theirs that I really can't abide is also Mozart. Not so much the sound of the band as the tempos used, which are deadly slow and dull, to the point of making the music unrecognizable. I pretty much stick to others when it comes to Mozart. :-\

8)

I didn't know you were fond of them. Maybe I'll try them in some other works. Who knows?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 04:54:14 AM
Quote from: Ataraxia on January 27, 2012, 04:36:04 AM
I didn't know you were fond of them. Maybe I'll try them in some other works. Who knows?

Well, Beethoven and Mozart there are 2 different bands. The Beethoven is Chamber Orchestra of Europe, a modern instrument group that (usually) Harnoncourt leads in a period style way. The Mozart is Concentus Musicus Wien, a period instrument group that represents the 50 years that Harnoncourt has been studying 18th century music style. I think that CMW are very fine in Haydn, for example, while I don't care much for their Mozart. I have them doing some Bach concertos that are very good also. If a group was perfectly to my taste 100% of the time, I would be suspicious....  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 27, 2012, 05:13:45 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 27, 2012, 04:54:14 AM
Well, Beethoven and Mozart there are 2 different bands. The Beethoven is Chamber Orchestra of Europe, a modern instrument group that (usually) Harnoncourt leads in a period style way. The Mozart is Concentus Musicus Wien, a period instrument group that represents the 50 years that Harnoncourt has been studying 18th century music style. I think that CMW are very fine in Haydn, for example, while I don't care much for their Mozart. I have them doing some Bach concertos that are very good also. If a group was perfectly to my taste 100% of the time, I would be suspicious....  :D

Leonhardt was the only of HIP precursors who never conducted orchestras or ensembles playing modern instruments. Anyway, regarding Harnoncourt the situation was naturally quite different because he was a cellist with the Vienna Symphony from 1952 to 1969, so he was always a man of two worlds. 

Do you have the CMW playing the Brandenburgs, Gurn? Or the violin concertos, maybe?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 05:19:58 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 27, 2012, 05:13:45 PM
Leonhardt was the only of HIP precursors who never conducted orchestras or ensembles playing modern instruments. Anyway, regarding Harnoncourt the situation was naturally quite different because he was a cellist with the Vienna Symphony from 1952 to 1969, so he was always a man of two worlds. 

Do you have the CMW playing the Brandenburgs, Gurn? Or the violin concertos, maybe?

I have Volume 12 of the Teldec Bach 2000 series. CMW play the violin (and oboe too) concerti and the orchestral suites in that box. Hogwood plays the Brandenburgs. Of my various dribs and drabs of Bach, this box is among my favorites. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 27, 2012, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 27, 2012, 05:19:58 PM
I have Volume 12 of the Teldec Bach 2000 series. CMW play the violin (and oboe too) concerti and the orchestral suites in that box. Hogwood plays the Brandenburgs. Of my various dribs and drabs of Bach, this box is among my favorites. :)

8)

Damn! I don't have that box (although I have the Brandenburgs with Hogwood). Anyway, this will be fixed very soon, as I have pre-ordered the complete Teldec edition.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 05:30:27 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 27, 2012, 05:24:08 PM
Damn! I don't have that box (although I have the Brandenburgs with Hogwood). Anyway, this will be fixed very soon, as I have pre-ordered the complete Teldec edition.  :)

HA! I have some Bach that you don't have! (for the nonce). :D  One of the amusing (well, irritating, actually) things about that box is that it is huge (a 13cm/side cube) but only contains 10 disks in paper sleeves and a smallish booklet that all told could easily fit into a box that was just 3.5cm thick. I've never gotten over the feeling that I was robbed of a small bust statuette that had to occupy all that remaining space...   ;D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2012, 06:04:18 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 27, 2012, 05:30:27 PM
HA! I have some Bach that you don't have! (for the nonce). :D  One of the amusing (well, irritating, actually) things about that box is that it is huge (a 13cm/side cube) but only contains 10 disks in paper sleeves and a smallish booklet that all told could easily fit into a box that was just 3.5cm thick. I've never gotten over the feeling that I was robbed of a small bust statuette that had to occupy all that remaining space...   ;D

8)

Wait... I sold that to you didn't I?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 06:11:30 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 27, 2012, 06:04:18 PM
Wait... I sold that to you didn't I?

Yes. You were sitting there eating Ramen for breakfast again and said "screw this, I'm gonna get rid of that gigantic Bach's Box from my shelf by selling it to Gurn and tomorrow I'm going out to eat a real breakfast!". :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2012, 06:21:52 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 27, 2012, 06:11:30 PM
Yes. You were sitting there eating Ramen for breakfast again and said "screw this, I'm gonna get rid of that gigantic Bach's Box from my shelf by selling it to Gurn and tomorrow I'm going out to eat a real breakfast!". :D

8)

Ah good old grad school days! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 06:24:59 PM
Quote from: DavidW on January 27, 2012, 06:21:52 PM
Ah good old grad school days! :)

Flash from the past. Bach is OK, but just not nutritious. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on February 10, 2012, 02:38:39 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515Yd5tFK%2BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I took a chance and downloaded this after hearing the samples. This is quite an enjoyable recording.
Perhaps I'm out on a limb considering my lack of technical knowledge about organs and organ music
but the registrations Bonizzoni uses seem particularly colorful and interesting.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on February 25, 2012, 11:44:25 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61n-WhT5%2BfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

A wonderful recording of flute concertos by Johann Joachim Quantz. It's Aces!!!


Quantz's flute works are special works, and place me squarely into the Galant world. The slow movements in particular are delicate, transparent idyllic places.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Ataraxia on February 25, 2012, 06:08:40 PM
Quote from: Leo K on February 25, 2012, 11:44:25 AM
A wonderful recording of flute concertos by Johann Joachim Quantz. It's Aces!!!

I'm taking this one out for a drive.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2012, 06:18:16 PM
Quote from: Leo K on February 25, 2012, 11:44:25 AM

A wonderful recording of flute concertos by Johann Joachim Quantz. It's Aces!!!


Quantz's flute works are special works, and place me squarely into the Galant world. The slow movements in particular are delicate, transparent idyllic places.

I have some Quantz concertos, not those though. I agree, he was the preeminent composer for the flute in the 18th century. And a patient man too, putting up as he did with Frederick the Great for so many years.  :)  I'm going to have to revisit this composer, he's very fine!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on February 26, 2012, 06:29:42 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 25, 2012, 06:18:16 PM
I have some Quantz concertos, not those though. I agree, he was the preeminent composer for the flute in the 18th century. And a patient man too, putting up as he did with Frederick the Great for so many years.  :)  I'm going to have to revisit this composer, he's very fine!

8)

I have three disks of Quantz, the concertos mentioned above, a set of his flute quartets, and a disk with Quantz and his influences. It is only recently I got interested in the flute of the galant and classical eras. I also love Frederick the Great's music, truly beautiful music!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZwTxfZRIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Tdfv3orlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on February 26, 2012, 07:11:27 AM
Quote from: Leo K on February 26, 2012, 06:29:42 AM
I have three disks of Quantz, the concertos mentioned above, a set of his flute quartets, and a disk with Quantz and his influences. It is only recently I got interested in the flute of the galant and classical eras. I also love Frederick the Great's music, truly beautiful music!
Then you'll probably be interested in this, which has inter alia a concerto and a sonata by Frederick, a concerto by Quantz, a sonata by Frederick's sister, concertos and sonatas by CPE Bach, Benda, and Agricola, and the Trio Sonata from the Musical Offering.
[asin]B005JD3E6K[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on February 26, 2012, 08:51:18 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 26, 2012, 07:11:27 AM
Then you'll probably be interested in this, which has inter alia a concerto and a sonata by Frederick, a concerto by Quantz, a sonata by Frederick's sister, concertos and sonatas by CPE Bach, Benda, and Agricola, and the Trio Sonata from the Musical Offering.
[asin]B005JD3E6K[/asin]

Ah! Thanks for the heads up on that one  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on February 29, 2012, 07:09:57 AM
This set is interesting.  I had little of Dominico Cimarosa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domenico_Cimarosa)'s music, and that was vocal.  The music is well worth a listen and as far as I can tell, this is the only complete collection of his keyboard music.  Not having any notes I don't know what kind of instrument he is using, but to me it sounds more like a real instrument from the period and not a modern replica.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519SBD1c9WL._SS500_.jpg)

There are three volumes, and I have all of them as mp3s.  I may not splurge for the CDs (they are going for a pretty penny from Amazon MP sellers) but am glad to have the music in any event.

Andrea Coen (http://www.music.utexas.edu/studio/EarlyMusicAcademy/faculty/details.aspx?id=7) is new to me.  But he seems to be a early music specialist.  I will probably look into getting more of his recordings since he focuses (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=Andrea+Coen) on Italian Classical and pre-Classical composers, playing period instruments.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 29, 2012, 07:17:51 AM
I have this disk;

[asin]B001QUL728[/asin]

which, despite being played on a modern piano ( :'( ) gives a good idea what the music sounds like. And by my taste, it sounds pretty good! At the time I got this, I had yet to ever see that disk of yours before, thanks for pointing it out, Arnold. I'll see if I can track it down for reasonable, and if not, well, downloads work too!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on February 29, 2012, 09:07:23 AM
Quote from: Arnold on February 29, 2012, 07:09:57 AM
Andrea Coen (http://www.music.utexas.edu/studio/EarlyMusicAcademy/faculty/details.aspx?id=7) is new to me.  But he seems to be a early music specialist.  I will probably look into getting more of his recordings since he focuses (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=Andrea+Coen) on Italian Classical and pre-Classical composers, playing period instruments.

Andrea Coen is terific. What about this intriguing set with the first sonatas ever written for fortepiano?  :o It's awesome, I tell you! :)

[asin]B003E1QDMQ[/asin]

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 29, 2012, 09:25:07 AM
Quote from: Que on February 29, 2012, 09:07:23 AM
Andrea Coen is terific. What about this intriguing set with the first sonatas ever written for fortepiano?  :o It's awesome, I tell you! :)

[asin]B003E1QDMQ[/asin]

Q

Yes, I didn't put 2 + 2 together on Coen's name, but you're right; that Giustini set is great! ANd the music is only 60 years older than the Cimarosa... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on February 29, 2012, 01:31:52 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 29, 2012, 09:25:07 AM
Yes, I didn't put 2 + 2 together on Coen's name, but you're right; that Giustini set is great! ANd the music is only 60 years older than the Cimarosa... :)

8)

That is quite some time-difference. But would you consider these pieces from 1732 as transitional?  :) I've read somewhere that the transitional period was between 1730-1760.  As the first compositions for the fortepiano they were kind of ahead of their time... I personally can definitely hear the dawn of Classicism in them, though the outer structure is still along Baroque conventions.

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on March 05, 2012, 02:23:14 AM
Alessandro Rolla, Viola Sonatas et al., Jennifer Stumm

Solid.

[asin]B004KDO2GQ[/asin]

QuoteViola jokes. We've all heard them, and I've even told a few myself. Most likely they are the product of pure jealousy, because no other instrument can sound as ravishing or expressive, especially in the hands of a consummate virtuoso like Jennifer Stumm.

In 1757, the year composer Alessandro Rolla was born, Handel put the finishing touches on his last oratorio (The Triumph of Time) and Mozart celebrated his first birthday, undoubtedly dashing off a symphony or two in honor of the occasion. Rolla lived on for some 84 years--long enough to champion the music of Beethoven in Italy and become an advocate for a young upstart named Giuseppe Verdi. Rolla was--beyond doubt--the finest violist of his time, and he pioneered many of the brilliant virtuoso techniques that were later exploited by his erstwhile pupil, Nicolo Paganini.

As a conductor, Rolla regularly performed the new music of his day: the operas of Rossini, Donizetti, and Bellini. Yet his own compositions--at least those heard here--remain firmly rooted in the 18th century. Nothing in any of these scores would have disturbed Mozart. Even the scoring of the sonatas is pleasantly old-fashioned. They are written for viola and "basso". In modern performance the bass line is sometimes taken by a second viola, a cello, or (as here) the piano. No matter; Rolla's focus was always on the solo viola and its uncanny ability to charm even the most hard-hearted joker.

The writing is invariably concise and compact. Rolla manages to say more in four minutes (the opening Allegro of the E-flat Sonata, for example) than most composers achieve over considerably longer time spans. Indeed no single movement here lasts longer than seven minutes, and every measure sings joyously. Undoubtedly Verdi himself would not have been ashamed to have penned the haunting Romance, the middle movement of the C Major Sonata. Even the three Exercises--clearly intended as teaching pieces--are filled with many delightful turns of phrase. The Duet is another gem in the bright, joyous key of A Major. It must be tremendous fun to play for both violists. The finale, oddly enough, is designated "Allegro bizzarro", though the music hardly lives up to such an odd name.

Ms. Stumm plays these delicacies with passion and total commitment. Her tone is creamier and more buttery than your Italian grandmother's homemade carbonara sauce. And Stumm phrases as seamlessly as a seasoned gondolier serenading his passengers as they effortlessly glide across Venice's Grand Canal. Moreover, Stumm is undaunted by the showy passage-work that Rolla flings at her without mercy, and she never allows these flourishes to undermine the beauty or impede the flow of the musical line.

Ferschtman matches Stumm note for note in the Duet, while the self-effacing Ms. Shih handles her undistinguished piano accompaniment with considerable aplomb. The recorded sound is warm and plush, yet vividly detailed. Let's hope that we soon have more of Rolla's exceptional music from this eloquent source.

Now have you heard the one about the violist who always played in tune? Nah, neither have I.
--amazon review
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 09, 2012, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 08:38:10 AM
(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/2008-02-15/g.b.sammartini_sinf.jpg)


I'm often returning to this set, the early symphonies of Sammartini, and I'm surprised at my growing emotional involvement with thes works. There's a life affirming quality in the performances, and these early works show deep introspection in the slow movements. It's quite profound and beautiful to behold.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on March 09, 2012, 06:49:34 PM
This landed and got played today:
[asin]B006OGSR2C[/asin]

Overall, a nicely balanced and well performed program.
Includes
Graun: Overture and Allegro in d minor Graun WV A:XI:2
Nichelmann:  Concerto for Keyboard Concertante in c minor D-B M. Th. 169
Frederick II (the Great): Sonata for Flute and B.C. in c minor "pour Potsdam" no. 190
Graun: Concerto for Viola da Gamba concertata in a minor  Graun WV A:XIII:14
CPE Bach: Symphony No. 1 in D major Wq 183, 1

(I ordered mine last weekend from Arkivmusic; not sure how they got it to me a week before Amazon's official release date).

A fortepiano was used for the solo in the keyboard concerto and the basso continuo in the flute sonata,  although no details were given about the particular instrument used.

This being an anniversary year for Frederick, I expect more releases of this sort to appear.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2012, 08:58:14 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 09, 2012, 06:49:34 PM
This landed and got played today:
[asin]B006OGSR2C[/asin]

Overall, a nicely balanced and well performed program.
Includes
Graun: Overture and Allegro in d minor Graun WV A:XI:2
Nichelmann:  Concerto for Keyboard Concertante in c minor D-B M. Th. 169
Frederick II (the Great): Sonata for Flute and B.C. in c minor "pour Potsdam" no. 190
Graun: Concerto for Viola da Gamba concertata in a minor  Graun WV A:XIII:14
CPE Bach: Symphony No. 1 in D major Wq 183, 1

(I ordered mine last weekend from Arkivmusic; not sure how they got it to me a week before Amazon's official release date).

A fortepiano was used for the solo in the keyboard concerto and the basso continuo in the flute sonata,  although no details were given about the particular instrument used.

This being an anniversary year for Frederick, I expect more releases of this sort to appear.

Thanks for pointing this one out, Jeffrey. I want something that is nicely representative of the era, but I don't want, at this time, to plunge in over my head while I still have so many irons in the fire. This looks like a good solution. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 11, 2012, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 29, 2011, 10:50:10 AM
As for Galuppi, he is a recent discovery for me too, here are the recordings I am enjoying of his work, played by Ilario Gregoletto on a harpischord:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/040/49089.jpg)(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl600/l688/l68898st8mp.jpg)

The music of Baldassare Galuppi is an underated treasure.

I recently aquired this set of three individual disks, played on the piano by Peter Seivewright, and I was not prepared by the beautiful sound of the execution and nuance heard on this set. I think only three volumes are out so far, with more to come, hopefully.

I am hearing this composer in a completely different way. The music doesn't have the action of a Scarlatti or Soler, but makes up by being achingly melodic and lush, with explorations with melodic pace, and sometimes harmony that astounds me. These recordings are something to behold.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Soo92pn3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 11, 2012, 11:38:29 PM
Quote from: Leo K on March 11, 2012, 12:19:57 PM
The music of Baldassare Galuppi is an underated treasure.

I recently aquired this set of three individual disks, played on the piano by Peter Seivewright, and I was not prepared by the beautiful sound of the execution and nuance heard on this set. I think only three volumes are out so far, with more to come, hopefully.

I am hearing this composer in a completely different way. The music doesn't have the action of a Scarlatti or Soler, but makes up by being achingly melodic and lush, with explorations with melodic pace, and sometimes harmony that astounds me. These recordings are something to behold.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Soo92pn3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Hmmm. Interesting. But I am not sure this will ever be completed. The last one was issued years ago.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 19, 2012, 06:33:32 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bp7iSdhN9wI/T2eHj2UC6FI/AAAAAAAAbNQ/H9qmMwfpprM/s1600/rodriguez+portada.PNG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R39kFRk8zjY/T2eHgGWpQGI/AAAAAAAAbNI/uWlYf02AGXU/s1600/rodriguez+contraportada.PNG)

Just received this today, I never heard of Felipe Rodriguez (1760-1815) but I can't wait. Has anyone here heard his music? I'll report back soon.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2012, 04:27:05 AM
Quote from: Leo K on March 19, 2012, 06:33:32 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bp7iSdhN9wI/T2eHj2UC6FI/AAAAAAAAbNQ/H9qmMwfpprM/s1600/rodriguez+portada.PNG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R39kFRk8zjY/T2eHgGWpQGI/AAAAAAAAbNI/uWlYf02AGXU/s1600/rodriguez+contraportada.PNG)

Just received this today, I never heard of Felipe Rodriguez (1760-1815) but I can't wait. Has anyone here heard his music? I'll report back soon.

8)

No, I never have anyway. Interesting. I note that he follows in the Iberian tradition of single movement sonatas. I often wonder at the internal structural differences that can make the work called Sonata 13 in F at 7:32 be called a sonata, while the Allegro in track 8 at 6:18 is simply an Allegro and not also a sonata. :-\  Anyway, curious to hear back from you on him. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 22, 2012, 07:09:09 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 20, 2012, 04:27:05 AM
No, I never have anyway. Interesting. I note that he follows in the Iberian tradition of single movement sonatas. I often wonder at the internal structural differences that can make the work called Sonata 13 in F at 7:32 be called a sonata, while the Allegro in track 8 at 6:18 is simply an Allegro and not also a sonata. :-\  Anyway, curious to hear back from you on him. :)

8)

Gurn,

This is a wonderful sounding fortepiano recording, it sparkles and has a beautiful tone, a pure wood-warm sound. Rodriguez's music is subtle, reaching some deep meloncoly in the slow sections. The music gets more thoughtful as the program progresses. Suggesting a wider range of emotion over time.

I look forward to researching more of Rodriguez's life, as I haven't even looked yet.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 01, 2012, 04:22:57 AM
Quote from: Leo K on May 29, 2011, 10:50:10 AM
Nice!

I would like to track the Wolf recording down sometime, that is right up my alley. I also need to hear Alberti yet  ;D

As for Galuppi, he is a recent discovery for me too, here are the recordings I am enjoying of his work, played by Ilario Gregoletto on a harpischord:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/040/49089.jpg)(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl600/l688/l68898st8mp.jpg)


It looks like these have been boxed up on Newton. Cover is not as nice though.
[asin]B007C7FDJM[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on April 01, 2012, 05:47:24 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 01, 2012, 04:22:57 AM
It looks like these have been boxed up on Newton. Cover is not as nice though.
[asin]B007C7FDJM[/asin]

I noticed it as well - it reportedly includes some music not issued on MeM.

Never mind the cover - I'll be all over it. 8)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on April 02, 2012, 05:22:56 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2012, 08:18:13 AM
David - yep, Que has also been lauding those Spanyi recordings for quite a while - just now check the BIS website (HERE (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=people&pID=2356)), and he is up to about 30 volumes of the keyboard concertos (7) and the sonatas (23) - WOW!  I have just 3 discs of CPE Bach's keyboard works which includes one of the BIS solo recordings - kind of waiting for a BIG BOX to appear but not sure if or when?  Dave :)

Addendum: Well, just checking Amazon which lists more volumes for the concertos, so the BIS listing may be incomplete!

The thing about the BIS website is that you can listen to each volume, not samples but, complete through a partnership with Naxos (http://www.bis.se/naxos.php?aID=BIS-CD-978).  I am listening to Vol. 6 as I type.  I chose Vol. 6 since it is one that is not available for downloading (which it appears most of the others are from Arkiv Music) and is OOP at most sellers, with the exception of Qualiton Imports (http://www.qualiton.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=QILTD&Product_Code=BIS+978&Category_Code=), the official BIS distributor in the US.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 05, 2012, 06:26:22 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on January 27, 2012, 02:23:23 AM
A new disc of string 4s by le divin Hyacinthe is on the way. Opp. 1/1 and 3/1 we've had on discs from Quatuors Franz Joseph et Mosaiques, but 3/3 I haven't heard. Don't know whether or not this is the same Cambini Quartet that put out 2 sets of Canales and one of Teixidor on La Ma de Guido.

[asin]B0042GNDWA[/asin]

This thing disappeared without a trace before being released, as far as I can tell. Never came to sale. Hmm.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 05, 2012, 06:56:13 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 05, 2012, 06:26:22 AM
This thing disappeared without a trace before being released, as far as I can tell. Never came to sale. Hmm.
Timpini is a strange label. I had been waiting for Ropartz symphony No. 3, and it looks like something similar happened. It's like I blinked and missed it. However, they are at mdt and the label is on sale. You could try ordering through them and see what happens.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 05, 2012, 07:19:43 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 05, 2012, 06:56:13 AM
Timpini is a strange label. I had been waiting for Ropartz symphony No. 3, and it looks like something similar happened. It's like I blinked and missed it. However, they are at mdt and the label is on sale. You could try ordering through them and see what happens.

Here it is on their website with a short sample: http://www.timpani-records.com/1c1170.php (http://www.timpani-records.com/1c1170.php)

I'm not desperate to buy it, as I have 2 of its 3 quartets already in good recordings. Just thought the hide-and-go-seek marketing weird.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 05, 2012, 08:36:38 AM
Some comedy gold! from Leo Smith's Music of the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries (Dent, 1931), p.235:

QuoteThe fall of the eighteenth-century curtain, therefore, is with the accomplishments of Haydn and Mozart. And one may summarize these accomplishments as follows: Their work saw two things well done: (1) a new instrumental music sufficiently advanced to become the daily fare of the century which followed; (2) the completion of a bridge over which those great giants, Beethoven and Schubert, and their successors were to tread.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 06, 2012, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: Leo K on March 11, 2012, 12:19:57 PM
The music of Baldassare Galuppi is an underated treasure.

I recently aquired this set of three individual disks, played on the piano by Peter Seivewright, and I was not prepared by the beautiful sound of the execution and nuance heard on this set. I think only three volumes are out so far, with more to come, hopefully.

I am hearing this composer in a completely different way. The music doesn't have the action of a Scarlatti or Soler, but makes up by being achingly melodic and lush, with explorations with melodic pace, and sometimes harmony that astounds me. These recordings are something to behold.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Soo92pn3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm more impressed by Peter Seivewright's Galuppi on each listen, wow, completely stunning.

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 04:59:50 AM
Do classical-era sonatas for violin and piano begin with Mozart and end with Beethoven? Who else wrote some and Why not?!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 05:12:43 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 04:59:50 AM
Do classical-era sonatas for violin and piano begin with Mozart and end with Beethoven? Who else wrote some and Why not?!

Boccherini's Op 5 is 6 nice sonatas (from 1767).

CPE Bach wrote <>6 also.

Accompanied sonatas were a big deal at that time. I think most composers had a go at them. Not a lot have made it into the modern, standard repertoire though. You know how we are... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 05:39:49 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 11, 2012, 05:12:43 AM
Boccherini's Op 5 is 6 nice sonatas (from 1767).

CPE Bach wrote <>6 also.

Accompanied sonatas were a big deal at that time. I think most composers had a go at them. Not a lot have made it into the modern, standard repertoire though. You know how we are... :-\

8)

Take my harpsichord... please!

This set has fortepiano. Are you familiar with it? It has a set of trios too, but I can't tell which opus - I have a couple of those already (opp. 14 & 47) and don't wish to duplicate.

[asin]B0013LP6MW[/asin]

Eck! Image won't work. It's the 2 disc set on Brilliant with Gatti, Alvini et al.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 05:54:59 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 05:39:49 AM
Take my harpsichord... please!

This set has fortepiano. Are you familiar with it? It has a set of trios too, but I can't tell which opus - I have a couple of those already (opp. 14 & 47) and don't wish to duplicate.

[asin]B0013LP6MW[/asin]

Eck! Image won't work. It's the 2 disc set on Brilliant with Gatti, Alvini et al.

No, Boccherini's was specifically written for fortepiano. There was a lady in Paris that he was trying to.. get to know, who was famous for her... fortepianism. He dedicated it to her, and it was the first set of these works specifically written for fortepiano. I have the Tactus set, it's really quite good. :)

Looking at your link, I would say that's a good option. I would like it! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 05:56:40 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 11, 2012, 05:12:43 AM
Accompanied sonatas were a big deal at that time. I think most composers had a go at them. Not a lot have made it into the modern, standard repertoire though. You know how we are... :-\
8)

That's just it. Where are the recordings, man?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 08:03:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2012, 06:38:01 AM
Hey, but if you knew how fond I am of birds . . . .

I'm fond enough of them to keep them far away from my 3 cats! Got within 10 feet or so of (what I took to be) a Cooper's Hawk just yesterday. A beautiful, raw, fierce creature i'twas.

Gurn: I've plunked for the CPE. Oboyoboyoboy!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 09:49:34 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 08:03:04 AM
I'm fond enough of them to keep them far away from my 3 cats! Got within 10 feet or so of (what I took to be) a Cooper's Hawk just yesterday. A beautiful, raw, fierce creature i'twas.

Gurn: I've plunked for the CPE. Oboyoboyoboy!

Cool, I think you'll like it. :)

I have a variety of hawks here, too. A red-tailed nest right outside my yard. Dat's some big bird, man!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on April 11, 2012, 10:24:15 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 08:03:04 AM
I'm fond enough of them to keep them far away from my 3 cats! Got within 10 feet or so of (what I took to be) a Cooper's Hawk just yesterday. A beautiful, raw, fierce creature i'twas.

Gurn: I've plunked for the CPE. Oboyoboyoboy!

Good choice! :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 11:14:33 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on Today at 08:39:49 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=11225.msg619477#msg619477)
Take my harpsichord... please!

This set has fortepiano. Are you familiar with it? It has a set of trios too, but I can't tell which opus - I have a couple of those already (opp. 14 & 47) and don't wish to duplicate.

Eck! Image won't work. It's the 2 disc set on Brilliant with Gatti, Alvini et al.

OK, well here is the Tactus disk I mentioned. Oddly, it is the very same recording that you showed on Brilliant. Looks like the licensed it from Tactus.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000458D.01.L.jpg)

So really, recordings are even thinner on the ground than I thought they were. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: KeithW on April 11, 2012, 12:45:03 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 11, 2012, 06:12:52 AM
Oh sure, we've discussed it here a few times. At least 3 of us have that disk and think it's the cat's ass. Amandine Beyer is a very fine fiddler indeed. She is a protege of Chiara Bianchini of Ensemble 415 and it shows in her style. :)

8)

My copy arrived today. Looking forward to listening to it with a nice glass of red in hand  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 12:55:03 PM
Quote from: KeithW on April 11, 2012, 12:45:03 PM
My copy arrived today. Looking forward to listening to it with a nice glass of red in hand  :D

Hope you like it as much as I do. That red sounds like a nice complement to the music too!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on April 11, 2012, 01:53:26 PM
It's nice to see some CPE Bach love in the Corner!

:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 12, 2012, 03:31:16 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 05:56:40 AM
That's just it. Where are the recordings, man?

Slipped my mind, but there are violin/piano sonatas in Viotti's world too.

[asin]B00548ZZVC[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2012, 05:39:04 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 12, 2012, 03:31:16 AM
Slipped my mind, but there are violin/piano sonatas in Viotti's world too.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51n%2BPVugklL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QPkplTrjL._SS350_.jpg)

The Viotti package above interests me a lot - looked at the contents (inserted above) which provides a lot of variety; not sure that I want 10 CDs of the 29 Violin Concertos but this 'mix' would be a nice introduction (currently just own a single disc of 3 VCs) - please let us know about the recording, i.e. sound, performance, and quality of the various genres - thanks!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 12, 2012, 06:17:01 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 12, 2012, 05:39:04 AM
The Viotti package above interests me a lot - looked at the contents (inserted above) which provides a lot of variety; not sure that I want 10 CDs of the 29 Violin Concertos but this 'mix' would be a nice introduction (currently just own a single disc of 3 VCs) - please let us know about the recording, i.e. sound, performance, and quality of the various genres - thanks!  Dave :)

Going from memory, so look out!

Concerti don't interest me, so I have nothing to say about the first 3 discs. It's chamber music I really want to hear. The overall sound is dry and very clear, violins perhaps a little thin. No issues that I recall with intonation or competence on the part of the players. The quartets are solid, generic classicism, but not up to the standards of Titz, Eybler et al. (let alone Haydn!) The duos are lovely, and not overly delicate. A good deal of energy there. The sonatas with (modern) piano very fine, the string trios excellent - these remind me strongly of Rolla, a master of the form - and the flute music (this surprised me, because I've never been nutty for flutes) quite gorgeous.

If you're looking specifically for variously arranged classical era chamber music and can get this set at a budget price, it's a worthy purchase. Dabblers should look elsewhere.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 13, 2012, 06:08:05 AM
Thanks Chas... for your excellent comments above on the Viotti box - the chamber works do interest me the most; at the moment, $45 on the Amazon MP - will put on my 'wish list' at the moment!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 13, 2012, 07:10:12 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 11, 2012, 05:56:40 AM
That's just it. Where are the recordings, man?

Well, here's a discovery, just released. 3 duo sonatas from Hummel, 2 with violin and 1 with viola. Arkiv calls the set "vol. 5", but it's pretty clear that's a mistake for opus 5. Anyone got a clue what it's like?

[asin]B0073US7S2[/asin]

EDIT: The pianist blogs here: http://www.michaeljarvis.ca/blog/michael/it039s-here-j-n-hummel-sonatas-fortepiano-and-violinviola-op-5-c1797-marquis-cd-81419 (http://www.michaeljarvis.ca/blog/michael/it039s-here-j-n-hummel-sonatas-fortepiano-and-violinviola-op-5-c1797-marquis-cd-81419) One excited dude! A Canucklehead to boot! I'd better order up a disc and share my Loony loot!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 13, 2012, 07:12:28 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 13, 2012, 06:08:05 AM
Thanks Chas... for your excellent comments above on the Viotti box - the chamber works do interest me the most; at the moment, $45 on the Amazon MP - will put on my 'wish list' at the moment!  Dave :)

Rock on, man!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2012, 08:25:04 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 13, 2012, 07:10:12 AM
Well, here's a discovery, just released. 3 duo sonatas from Hummel, 2 with violin and 1 with viola. Arkiv calls the set "vol. 5", but it's pretty clear that's a mistake for opus 5. Anyone got a clue what it's like?

[asin]B0073US7S2[/asin]

EDIT: The pianist blogs here: http://www.michaeljarvis.ca/blog/michael/it039s-here-j-n-hummel-sonatas-fortepiano-and-violinviola-op-5-c1797-marquis-cd-81419 (http://www.michaeljarvis.ca/blog/michael/it039s-here-j-n-hummel-sonatas-fortepiano-and-violinviola-op-5-c1797-marquis-cd-81419) One excited dude! A Canucklehead to boot! I'd better order up a disc and share my Loony loot!  ;D

I have the Op 5 #3 in Eb, at least 2 performances of it in fact, and I really like it a lot (it was my first music by Hummel, in fact). I haven't heard the other 2, they are seldom recorded, so when I get this disk it will fill a gap in my knowledge of Hummel, and I always like when that happens. Thanks for the tip, Chas!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 13, 2012, 12:11:08 PM
The first sonata has just ended, but I'm ready to apply for membership in the cat's a** brigade. This is just what I was looking for. The Hummel will have to wait for fun money to be freed up, but it's on my wishlist. And I already adore the Immerseel/Seiler Mozart set, so it looks like I'm hungry for HIP in this area.

[asin]B000BNTAHA[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2012, 01:01:29 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 13, 2012, 12:48:20 PM
Zig Zig's presentation is precious, to be sure, but they've put out some zingers, including seminal sets by Ensemble Musica Nova of motets et al. by Machaut and Dufay. Material not up your street, Gurn, but I've come to expect good things behind those gauche designs!

I have the original (not the re-release) of the Mozart 2 disk set with Ensemble 415 / Gilles Thomé called (pardon my French) "Une soirée sur les Jacquins" (there, by god, I butchered that up!). In any case, it is the most beautiful and artistically designed CD set I have ever purchased. Full of original art and excellent music. That sold me on Zig-Zag right there. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 02:54:34 AM
What do we make of Bohemian Songs on Brilliant?

[asin]B001VO7O26[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 02:57:14 AM
Pichl's string trios. Solid set here. Well played, clear, and the historischen Instrumenten have a muscular sound I quite enjoy.

[asin]B000005SBW[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 03:34:30 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 13, 2012, 01:01:29 PM
I have the original (not the re-release) of the Mozart 2 disk set with Ensemble 415 / Gilles Thomé called (pardon my French) "Une soirée sur les Jacquins" (there, by god, I butchered that up!).8)

You sure did! Une Soirée chez les Jacquin This is the original, right? Arkiv still has some, so consider it...

ORDERED!

(http://img1.douban.com/lpic/s4695791.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2012, 04:09:00 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 03:34:30 AM
You sure did! Une Soirée chez les Jacquin This is the original, right? Arkiv still has some, so consider it...

ORDERED!

(http://img1.douban.com/lpic/s4695791.jpg)

:D  Well, I was sorta close... Anyway, that's the right set. I understand that the bargain re-release they did a couple of years ago didn't have all the nice things in it. Which, the music itself is worth having, but the art and booklet are a very nice bonus. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2012, 04:12:59 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 02:57:14 AM
Pichl's string trios. Solid set here. Well played, clear, and the historischen Instrumenten have a muscular sound I quite enjoy.

[asin]B000005SBW[/asin]

I like the look of that one, I wish listed it. I have the Ensemble Agora playing Haydn's flute trios, which is quite a nice disk. And one scarcely hears enough Pichl these days... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 17, 2012, 05:15:29 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 02:54:34 AM
What do we make of Bohemian Songs on Brilliant?

[asin]B001VO7O26[/asin]

What I make of it at least is that we need more like it - and there doesn't seem to be much of a market for this sort of thing.  My reason for buying it in the first place was the single Rosetti item included; I try to keep up with that person, to the point of almost-completeness, and at the time this album came out it was the only way to hear any of his vocal music at all.  Minor, but it made me feel good that at least I had SOMEthing....  (There's some choral music out now, but that's much more recent.) 

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 17, 2012, 06:16:46 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 02:57:14 AM
Pichl's string trios. Solid set here. Well played, clear, and the historischen Instrumenten have a muscular sound I quite enjoy.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fKpaRsUML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

BOY - have not thought about Pichl for a while!  :D

Amazon MP had this 2-CD set for $10 (plus the usual $3) - just made an order!  Thanks - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 17, 2012, 06:43:32 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 02:54:34 AM
What do we make of Bohemian Songs on Brilliant?

[asin]B001VO7O26[/asin]


It occurs to me, perhaps what is wanted is some sort of comment on the music and performance?

Claron McFadden is a very good, not great, singer, and it's a real pleasure to hear her tackle this off-the-wall repertory and really, I think, make more of it than is actually there.  Bart Van Oort can be a dreadful pedant in his solo stuff, almost as bad as Bilson, but here - with a partner - he does a much better job than I frankly had expected.  All in all a pleasant listen from time to time, though I have to say I'm glad it was cheap, as what I really and truly wanted runs less than 3 minutes....  (Rosetti)

As to the music, it's charming and period-pleasant, but let's face it; despite some very nice things by several very gifted precursors, e.g. Mozart, the brothers Haydn, Weber, Zelter et al. (and not excepting all the guys on this disc), the Lieder  form as we know it really did start with Schubert.  Rosetti nut I may be, but his catalogue lists 82 art songs and I cannot imagine wanting to hear them all!   

("It is protocol to speak patronizingly of the songs of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, which is an awkward and offensive way of saying that there is only one Schubert."  C. G. Burke, music critic and Haydn-fanatic, in an almost-perfect quote remembered from 30+ years ago.  It became something of a mantra for me when I took up singing and made a speciality of 'unknown' Schubert songs.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 07:10:58 AM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 17, 2012, 06:43:32 AM
It occurs to me, perhaps what is wanted is some sort of comment on the music and performance?

Your comments are most welcome. The Brilliant price has induced me to plunk, so I'll hear it for myself soon enough. I have no problem with Oort's Haydn, so he doesn't worry me. And I am not looking for pseudo-Schubert, just some room-sized melody sung well with a fortepiano comp. Odds are I'll enjoy. Cheers!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 07:17:38 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 17, 2012, 06:16:46 AM
BOY - have not thought about Pichl for a while!  :D

Amazon MP had this 2-CD set for $10 (plus the usual $3) - just made an order!  Thanks - Dave :)

You'll like it! And when you've heard it maybe you can solve a mystery for me. There's a melody on the second disc - I'll find it when I get home - that I KNOW I've heard elsewhere in classical rep, probably in another string trio or quartet. And I'd really like to i.d. that baby!

EDIT: Just looked at my catalogue and the most likely candidates are Titz, Förster, Reichardt and Jadin. An all-out search might prove a pleasure, methinks. Must give it a try!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 17, 2012, 09:10:26 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 07:10:58 AM
Your comments are most welcome. The Brilliant price has induced me to plunk, so I'll hear it for myself soon enough. I have no problem with Oort's Haydn, so he doesn't worry me. And I am not looking for pseudo-Schubert, just some room-sized melody sung well with a fortepiano comp. Odds are I'll enjoy. Cheers!

Odds are indeed that you will enjoy.  I would only warn you - and unfortunately I'm not able to check just now - that on my (older-edition) pressing, there's one song listed in the booklet that is not actually present on the disc!  As I recall the way to figure out which one is, pop the CD in your computer and look at the contents listed on iTunes (or whatever), and compare them to the printed paper.  They don't match.  Maybe this reissue pressing has fixed that; if so, ignore this paragraph.  (I have it marked on my booklet; but I'm not at home just at the moment to check for you!)

Another point of interest for me at least is the presence on the disc of two composers who are sometimes confused one for the other, to the extent that anybody knows them at all:  Anton Rössler (a.k.a. Antonio Rosetti), the one I'm so enamored of, who died in 1792; and Jan Josef Rösler, no relation, who died in 1813.  Allegedly, the Requiem written by Rössler-Rosetti, which had been played at Mozart's memorial in Prague in 1791, was also played at J.J.Rösler's funeral.  A charming story to link the two men, assuming it's true.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 09:41:28 AM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 17, 2012, 09:10:26 AM
Odds are indeed that you will enjoy.  I would only warn you - and unfortunately I'm not able to check just now - that on my (older-edition) pressing, there's one song listed in the booklet that is not actually present on the disc!  As I recall the way to figure out which one is, pop the CD in your computer and look at the contents listed on iTunes (or whatever), and compare them to the printed paper.  They don't match.  Maybe this reissue pressing has fixed that; if so, ignore this paragraph.  (I have it marked on my booklet; but I'm not at home just at the moment to check for you!)

Another point of interest for me at least is the presence on the disc of two composers who are sometimes confused one for the other, to the extent that anybody knows them at all:  Anton Rössler (a.k.a. Antonio Rosetti), the one I'm so enamored of, who died in 1792; and Jan Josef Rösler, no relation, who died in 1813.  Allegedly, the Requiem written by Rössler-Rosetti, which had been played at Mozart's funeral in 1791, was also played at J.J.Rösler's.  A charming story to link the two men, assuming it's true.

An amazonist notes the missing track as #13 out of 23 listed. Be interesting to see if it's still in hiding.

As to Antonio Rosetti, here is what I know -

[asin]B000001RZZ[/asin]

and it's a fine disc.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on April 17, 2012, 09:42:56 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 02:57:14 AM
Pichl's string trios. Solid set here. Well played, clear, and the historischen Instrumenten have a muscular sound I quite enjoy.

[asin]B000005SBW[/asin]

I am listening to this right now on Spotify - very nice.  Nothing like instant gratification.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 09:51:52 AM
Quote from: Arnold on April 17, 2012, 09:42:56 AM
I am listening to this right now on Spotify - very nice.  Nothing like instant gratification.
:)

Good on ya!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 17, 2012, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 09:41:28 AM

As to Antonio Rosetti, here is what I know -

[asin]B000001RZZ[/asin]

and it's a fine disc.

Indeed it is.  Another fine one, unfortunately now OOP, is this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sy%2BmnIpfL._SL500_.jpg)

by the Rösler who died in 1813.  Very similar style, both worth knowing.  At the moment apparently all you can get with this disc is an MP3 download - well, unless you want to go to Amazon.co.uk where there are two copies for about $60 each.  Maybe the answer is, keep on the lookout for someone selling it at a FAIR price....

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 04:04:04 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 07:17:38 AM
There's a melody on the second disc - I'll find it when I get home - that I KNOW I've heard elsewhere in classical rep, probably in another string trio or quartet. And I'd really like to i.d. that baby!

:-[ Found it. Pichl's op.7/5 Larghetto Romance and Titz's #5 in Dm from the 6 Quatuors of 1781 Rondo. THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. I'm a maroon. I'm an imbessle.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 17, 2012, 04:10:28 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 04:04:04 PM
:-[ Found it. Pichl's op.7/5 Larghetto Romance and Titz's #5 in Dm from the 6 Quatuors of 1781 Rondo. THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. I'm a maroon. I'm an imbessle.

Oh, don't be so hard on yourself.  Just because you can't spel.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 18, 2012, 02:28:11 AM
Grétry's Sei Quartetti on Musica Ficta, played by the Quatuor Thaïs. Very pleasant. I tuck this among quartets composed in the French style. They please without attempting to edify or advance. Comparable to Gossec, Rigel, Lombardini, St. George.

[asin]B000EGEKMY[/asin]

There. I feel better now. And I can spel again!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2012, 04:22:49 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 18, 2012, 02:28:11 AM
Grétry's Sei Quartetti on Musica Ficta, played by the Quatuor Thaïs. Very pleasant. I tuck this among quartets composed in the French style. They please without attempting to edify or advance. Comparable to Gossec, Rigel, Lombardini, St. George.

[asin]B000EGEKMY[/asin]

There. I feel better now. And I can spel again!  :)

I don't know that I've heard much of Grétry's instrumental music. THis looks interesting, not least because I quite like that French quartet style, like the quatuors brillant. Interesting find, Chas. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on April 18, 2012, 04:38:21 AM
Grétry remains to me only a charmingly obscure name I once read in a Poe short story.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 18, 2012, 04:57:52 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2012, 04:38:21 AM
Grétry remains to me only a charmingly obscure name I once read in a Poe short story.

Best known for vocal music, I think, of which I've only heard his bit from Jean-Claude Malgoire's disc, Grands Motets pour Louis XVI:

[asin]B000F8MH8U[/asin]

Not the most fortunate of French kings with whom to be associated! And I don't remember anything about the musique!  :-[ (So much to hear, so little time to listen...)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 18, 2012, 06:14:08 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 18, 2012, 04:22:49 AM
I don't know that I've heard much of Grétry's instrumental music. THis looks interesting, not least because I quite like that French quartet style, like the quatuors brillant. Interesting find, Chas. :)


Chas.. & Gurn - own nothing by Grétry (1741-1813), so that recording of SQs by a French (i.e. Belgium born) opera composer peaked my interest.  Doing a little searching, I found this short but informative Allmusic Review (http://www.allmusic.com/album/aem-grtry-sei-quartetti-w135842/review); apparently these works were composed early in the composer's life while studying in Italy while still in his 20s - so middle of the 18th century w/ the classical SQ developing but yet to reach maturity and likely w/ a more Italianate influence?

Yet, this disc still interests me for those very reasons as pointed out in the review - will be curious to read comments from others who have listened to this recording - :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on April 18, 2012, 06:34:49 AM
Interestingly, those Gretry quartets are on Spotify  (http://www.amazon.com/Gretry-Six-quatuors-Op-3/dp/B004F1ADVQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1334759545&sr=1-2)but by a different ensemble: Quatuor Via Nova: Jean Mouillière, Jean-Pierre Sabouret, Liviu Stanese, Jean-Marie Gamard

Good music and I always appreciate learning of a composer from my favorite period that is new to me.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 19, 2012, 05:28:51 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2012, 04:38:21 AM
Grétry remains to me only a charmingly obscure name I once read in a Poe short story.

Minor Belgian composer best known for opera, remembered these days mainly for "Richard the Lion-Hearted" which Sherrill Milnes actually revived (don't know if he recorded it though) a couple of decades ago.  I recall coming across a review of Gretry's reputation for somewhat weak musicianship containing a fabulous line which I can only quote approximately:  "Between his treble and his bass lines you can easily drive a coach and six horses...."

A couple of his overtures are fun as pot-boilers rather in the manner of, say, Boieldieu. 

I'll be most interested in a report on these quartets - are they in fact any good, or just charming French tunes and no substance.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 19, 2012, 10:02:56 AM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 19, 2012, 05:28:51 AMI'll be most interested in a report on these quartets - are they in fact any good, or just charming French tunes and no substance.

Without getting all Kritische about "substance": they're definitely shallow. But that's fine by me.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 19, 2012, 04:59:24 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 19, 2012, 10:02:56 AM
Without getting all Kritische about "substance": they're definitely shallow. But that's fine by me.

Oh, nothing at all wrong with shallow, I've got tons of that sitting on my shelves.  It's wonderful for playing while doing things that preclude concentrating on the music too much.  Elevator music without the elevator? 

But there's pleasant (or useful) shallow, and then there's utter tripe shallow.  And I think you answered in which group you place these, by your "that's fine" comment.     

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 21, 2012, 02:25:02 PM
Well arrived today and just did a first listen and enjoyed! :)

Pichl, Vaclav (1741-1805) - String Trios, Op. 7, N. 1-6 (2-discs) w/ Ensemble Agora; my set is stated to be on the Fermate label rather than the one shown below on Audite (apparently the two merged and are using the latter name, so same recording).

Pichl was a virtuoso violinst who arrived in Vienna in 1769, and apparently impressed Maria Theresia, who recommended him to a post in Milan; thus, an Italian interlude until his return to Vienna where he died in 1805.  As expected, string chamber music was a large part of his output, and his compositions include 18 SQs, 15 String Duos (violin & viola), 45 String Trios, and likely more?  Little of his work is available on Amazon and I assume much remains unrecorded (and/or lost?), unfortunately.

I've not heard this group of musicians before but the playing is beautifully done on presumably 'historic instruments' (no description is in the booklet, so not sure about the instruments used relative to their age/restoration/etc., the type of stings & bows, nor the techniques used?).  The music is well worth hearing and will please those who enjoy classical chamber works w/ strings - NOW, where are some of those other compositions listed -  ::)  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-kcnZwSH/0/O/PichlStringTrios.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 23, 2012, 05:27:44 PM
Today's arrival is this, which is very much in the period covered on this thread:


[asin]B000002ZI1[/asin]


contains a well-known Boccherini thing and complete unknowns by Pierre Van Maldere, Friedrich Schwindl and Samuel Wesley.

I bought it specifically for the g minor Sinfonia by Pierre Van Maldere (Flemish, 1729-68).  Not great, but a minor discovery and it fits right in with my "special exploration" of the classical Symphony in g minor, one of the most striking of the Sturm und Drang key signatures.  (Haydn 39, Mozart 25/40, a couple of real gems by Vanhal, etc.)  This is number 31 that I've managed to scour, ranging from Sammartini to a couple of minor people in the first decade of the 1800s.  (By then, the Sturm und Drang had largely dissipated, so I didn't go further.) 

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2012, 05:36:39 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 23, 2012, 05:27:44 PM
Today's arrival is this, which is very much in the period covered on this thread:


contains a well-known Boccherini thing and complete unknowns by Pierre Van Maldere, Friedrich Schwindl and Samuel Wesley.

I bought it specifically for the g minor Sinfonia by Pierre Van Maldere (Flemish, 1729-68).  Not great, but a minor discovery and it fits right in with my "special exploration" of the classical Symphony in g minor, one of the most striking of the Sturm und Drang key signatures.  (Haydn 39, Mozart 25/40, a couple of real gems by Vanhal, etc.)  This is number 31 that I've managed to scour, ranging from Sammartini to a couple of minor people in the first decade of the 1800s.  (By then, the Sturm und Drang had largely dissipated, so I didn't go further.)

Looked good enough to buy, Conrad, so I did out of curiosity as much as anything. I have read about Schwindl a few times, so I was wanting to hear something by him.

I agree about the interesting works in g minor. At some point you might be amenable to posting a list of the ones you have; never know what others might show up along the way... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 24, 2012, 03:06:03 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 03:34:30 AM
(http://img1.douban.com/lpic/s4695791.jpg)

Arrived not as pictured. I have the rerelease after all, alas! Have listened to it 2.5 times since yesterday and it is utterly gorgeous, the interspersal of forms and textures, voices and instruments, extremely effective.

Questions. What is an "esquisse", other than "sketch"? Can it mean "fragment"? KV484b and e are not on the Wikipedia list of K numbers, so I don't know what these pieces are about or part of.

Isn't the Kegelstatt something else? Wow.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 04:07:35 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 24, 2012, 03:06:03 AM
Arrived not as pictured. I have the rerelease after all, alas! Have listened to it 2.5 times since yesterday and it is utterly gorgeous, the interspersal of forms and textures, voices and instruments, extremely effective.

Questions. What is an "esquisse", other than "sketch"? Can it mean "fragment"? KV484b and e are not on the Wikipedia list of K numbers, so I don't know what these pieces are about or part of.

Isn't the Kegelstatt something else? Wow.

No, it really does mean a sketch. I have the details at home, but IIRC these are realized sketches. Or, like in the case of the bassett horn concerto, he got well into it and then stopped and changed the key and made it a clarinet concerto instead. So it isn't a complete work, but it isn't a fragment in the sense of having some pages missing... they are missing because they were never written, so to speak. :)

Yes, that's my favorite version of that piece. They way the entire set is done, it is not difficult to imagine an evening at the Jacquin's with all these friends sitting around making music. Especially since in most cases, this music was written just for that purpose. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 24, 2012, 07:18:52 AM
At the bottom is a quote that I left here about a week ago - well I obtained the recording of the Grétry String Quartets - short works (10 minutes or less each), generally pleasant and nothing profound; well recorded and pretty much agree w/ the Allmusic comments linked below; also attached a Fanfare review from 2006 (a year following the recording), which is somewhat harsh and dismissive.

More information from the liner notes - Gretry was born in Liege (where his remains are now located), and w/ the help of a scholarship headed off to Rome in 1760 to study under various Italians; he stayed 6 yrs and composed these quartets at that time, so likely in his early 20s; now whether he revised the works after his arrival in Paris for later performances (if at all?) is unclear from the brief liner notes.  Also added a portrait of the composer from 1785, likely at the height of his operatic career in France and just before the revolution! :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-wdf6RW3/0/O/GretrySQs.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gqpSQbt/0/O/GretryPortrait.jpg)


Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 18, 2012, 06:14:08 AM
Chas.. & Gurn - own nothing by Grétry (1741-1813), so that recording of SQs by a French (i.e. Belgium born) opera composer peaked my interest.  Doing a little searching, I found this short but informative Allmusic Review (http://www.allmusic.com/album/aem-grtry-sei-quartetti-w135842/review); apparently these works were composed early in the composer's life while studying in Italy while still in his 20s - so middle of the 18th century w/ the classical SQ developing but yet to reach maturity and likely w/ a more Italianate influence?

Yet, this disc still interests me for those very reasons as pointed out in the review - will be curious to read comments from others who have listened to this recording - :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 24, 2012, 09:25:21 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 23, 2012, 05:36:39 PM
Looked good enough to buy, Conrad, so I did out of curiosity as much as anything. I have read about Schwindl a few times, so I was wanting to hear something by him.

I agree about the interesting works in g minor. At some point you might be amenable to posting a list of the ones you have; never know what others might show up along the way... :)

8)

Nicely done disc, I think you'll be pleased despite not being PI.  Also contains one of my favorite Boccherini, Op. 35/6.  And when you listen to that, try to imagine the first movement played at about half speed, with muffled timpani added, and "converted" to part of a so-called Funeral Symphony.  (The final product was the first and second movements from this work, plus one movement each from Op. 35/4 and 35/5.  The second mvt. of 35/6 actually does have a funereal sound to it already; perhaps that was the impetus.)  For all the complete lack of any authenticity whatsoever, that bastardization was a much-cherished ancient LP that I practically wore out.  Never to be heard again, I'm quite certain....

About the g minor list - what the hell, I'm not busy just now.  I'll put it in a separate post. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 24, 2012, 09:54:48 AM
LIST OF G MINOR SYMPHONIES OF THE 'CLASSICAL' ERA (c.1730s - c.1800) - Additions greatly welcomed; uploads of any CD photo for identification on request

NOTE:  Most of these have some sort of number or other identifier, but in general it doesn't much matter as the person involved wrote just one in that key and it's obvious.  Identification by number given when it seems to me to be useful.  Otherwise, just alphabetical by composer.


BACH, Johann Christian (Op. 6/6)
BECK, Franz Ignaz (Op. 1/1)
BECK, Franz Ignaz (Op. 3/3)
BRUNETTI, Gaetano
DITTERSDORF, Karl
EICHNER, Ernst
FILS, Anton  (a.k.a. Antonin Filtz)
HAYDN, Joseph (No. 39)
HAYDN, Joseph (No. 83)
KOZELUCH, Leopold
KUNZEN, F. L. AE.
LE DUC, Simon
MALDERE, Pierre Van
MARTIN, Francois
MEHUL, E.-N. (No. 1)
MOZART, W. A. (K.183)
MOZART, W. A. (K.550)
MYSLIVECEK, Josef (Jiri)
ORDONEZ, Karl von (Carlos d')
RICHTER, Franz Xaver (No. 27)
RICHTER, Franz Xaver (No. 29)
RIGEL, Henri-Joseph
ROSETTI, Antonio
SAMMARTINI, G. B. (J-C 56)
SAMMARTINI, G. B. (J-C 57)
SAMMARTINI, G. B. (J-C 59) (frag.)
STAMITZ, Johann ("Orch. trio Op. 4/5")
VANHAL, J. B. (g1)
VANHAL, J. B. (g2)
WAGENSEIL, G. C.
WEYSE, C. E. F. (No. 1)
WOELFL, Joseph

     Concerning the target dates bracketed, and the "Sturm-und-Drang" relationship:  The three Sammartini, the Richter, and the Stamitz, are best thought of as precursors.  The first two that seem to have clear bearing on my topic are Maldere and Wagenseil, both published in the early 1760s.  At the other end, Woelfl is c.1801 and Mehul as late as c.1808, and as such probably too late to belong here, but they're both such excellent works that I couldn't bear to drop them. 
     Other works that I know of but which aren't recorded:  F.I. Beck also wrote his sym. Op/. 2/2 in g minor.  And Karl von Ordonez apparently wrote several others, but so little of his work is performed (he's definitely in the second or even third rank of quality, being essentially an amateur) that I don't expect to see more.  Sammartini apparently wrote one more that is known to be lost, as is the first part of J-C 59 which survives as a fragment; and Richter wrote more than one lost (?) work in g minor.





Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
That's a heck of a list, Conrad! I was hoping to be able to make some suggestions, but for the nonce I don't have one that won't duplicate your current collection. I will tap into my resources though; you never know. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 25, 2012, 12:05:47 PM
This one's brand new, Boccherini's opus 8 string quartets performed by the Quartetto d'Archi di Venezia. Just having my first listen now. The music is tauter than I expect from Mr. B, quite nice, 6 pieces of 3 movements each. Sound admirably clear. Instruments I assume to be MI. First violinist somewhat wayward at times, unless my ears deceive me. Happy to have.

[asin]B006UM058Y[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 25, 2012, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 17, 2012, 02:54:34 AM
[asin]B001VO7O26[/asin]

I like! And there is indeed a missing track, #13-Die fruhe Liebe by Rosler.

(Add umlauts to taste.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 26, 2012, 02:54:04 AM
And my favourite tune from the lot is by Conrad's Roesler/Rosetti: Goethe's An die Entfernte, of which the The Lied, Art Song, and Choral Texts Archive (http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=6375 (http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=6375)) lists 22 settings, but not this one! (Translation from the Archive)

QuoteSo have I truly lost you?
Have you, o fair one, fled from me?
Yet still I can hear in my accustomed ears
Every word, every tone of your voice.

Just as the wanderer's gaze in the morning
Searchingly pierces the heavens in vain
When, concealed in the blue expanse
High above, the lark sings to him:

So does my gaze anxiously search here and there,
Through field and bush and forest,
Singing to you through all my songs,
O come, my darling, back to me!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 26, 2012, 08:03:16 AM
This might be interesting: PI piano trios by Gyrowetz. Released late last year on NCA, but JEEPERS! look at the price!

[asin]B005NKAYJ4[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on April 26, 2012, 08:11:15 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 26, 2012, 08:03:16 AM
This might be interesting: PI piano trios by Gyrowetz. Released late last year on NCA, but JEEPERS! look at the price!

[asin]B005NKAYJ4[/asin]

Spotify to the rescue!  :P

I fail to understand why there are still some people who do not subscribe to it ...

:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 26, 2012, 08:46:06 AM
Ride, Arnold, ride!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2012, 08:48:05 AM
Quote from: Arnold on April 26, 2012, 08:11:15 AM
Spotify to the rescue!  :P

I fail to understand why there are still some people who do not subscribe to it ...

:D

Not for a reason other than technological; can't stream music at work, and have a satellite broadband at home that doesn't stream worth a damn. Conceptually though, I'm there! :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on April 26, 2012, 09:20:00 AM
Quote from: Arnold on April 26, 2012, 08:11:15 AM
Spotify to the rescue!  :P

I fail to understand why there are still some people who do not subscribe to it ...

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 26, 2012, 08:48:05 AM
Not for a reason other than technological; can't stream music at work, and have a satellite broadband at home that doesn't stream worth a damn. Conceptually though, I'm there! :)

Right; my reply had been, "And when would I listen to it?" : )
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on April 26, 2012, 10:23:16 AM
Too bad you can't stream at work.  That is the main reason why I signed up.

I used to bring an external drive to work with my iTunes library on it, but noticed that iTunes soaked up a lot of my pc's resources and impacted on its performance.  Spotify uses hardly anything.  And I've taken to listening even at home instead of my iTunes.  I've created a bunch of playlists that include many things I own as well as things I do not own (while I have maybe a dozen recordings of the Goldberg Variations, there's easily ten times, maybe twenty times, that many on Spotify).

Another added benefit are the playlists that others have created which I have subscribed to.  There is a fellow who has assembled chronological complete catalogs of Beethoven, Stravinsky, Brahms, Couperin and many other composers. 

Those are really nice things to have which I don't want to take the time to create either on iTunes or Spotify.

And I've almost entirely stopped buying new music unless it is not on Spotify - big savings there.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on April 26, 2012, 10:39:41 AM
Oh, iTunes is a pig, no quarrel there!  Have nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 26, 2012, 04:16:34 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 26, 2012, 02:54:04 AM
And my favourite tune from the lot is by Conrad's Roesler/Rosetti: Goethe's An die Entfernte, of which the The Lied, Art Song, and Choral Texts Archive (http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=6375 (http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=6375)) lists 22 settings, but not this one! (Translation from the Archive)

Yes, but it does say the list is "not necessarily exhaustive."  Obviously that's true here....   ;D

Of the 22 I have heard - er, let's see - five.  Berger, Reichardt, Schubert, Zelter and the Polish version by Moniuszko.  (The latter without realizing what it was!)  The only two I actually remember much about are Schubert and Zelter.  The Schubert is monumental; the Zelter is actually a rather nice precursor of the Schubert.  (Poor Mr. Zelter; one of the truly great precursors in all of music history.  But only that.)

But to be fair, this is one of the very few times Rosetti set major poems by major poets.  Mostly his texts are by nonentities, and frequently the author is unknown (maybe just a ditty taken from a bad greeting card?). 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 30, 2012, 02:21:15 AM
Pardon me... Excuse me... Is there a clique round here I can join?

:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2012, 04:07:52 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 30, 2012, 02:21:15 AM
Pardon me... Excuse me... Is there a clique round here I can join?

:D

Oh... I thought you were the clique!  :-[

:D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 30, 2012, 04:44:18 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 30, 2012, 04:07:52 AM
Oh... I thought you were the clique!  :-[

*bows*

Speaking of which, this Krommer chap's music is more than pretty. He's had some attention in these parts in the past, but I haven't heard mention of Quartetto di Milano's recording of his opus 18 SQs on Tudor. The disc is not readily available - I nabbed BRO's last copy I think - but it is downloadable and suchforth and so on, so it's not impossible to hear. MI, lovely recording, and music Haydn would have been proud to call his own. A most superior and exclusive listen.

What it doesn't quite do is touch the hem of the sublime. Sorry about that. Maybe next time.

:D

[asin]B00005QTPO[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on April 30, 2012, 05:04:25 AM
I had no idea this thread was considered "esoteric"! 

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2012, 05:14:27 AM
Quote from: Arnold on April 30, 2012, 05:04:25 AM
I had no idea this thread was considered "esoteric"! 

:)

Not esoteric? Krommer? He's damn near a cult classic!  :)

Love your quote from Rosen. I need to pull out that book for a reread. It's been a while. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 30, 2012, 05:35:36 AM
Quote from: Arnold on April 30, 2012, 05:04:25 AM
I had no idea this thread was considered "esoteric"! 

:)

It is so esoteric with such a small clique, that it makes the Havergal Brian thread seem mainstream! >:D

Nah this thread is great, don't take offense.  I'm just having fun. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2012, 05:58:04 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 30, 2012, 05:35:36 AM
Nah this thread is great, don't take offense.

Just broadens our appreciation for "Papa", je-je-je-je!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2012, 06:07:54 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 30, 2012, 05:35:36 AM
It is so esoteric with such a small clique, that it makes the Havergal Brian thread seem mainstream! >:D

Nah this thread is great, don't take offense.  I'm just having fun. :)

Havergal Who?   ???

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on April 30, 2012, 06:22:22 AM
That reminds me, as the classical era experts tend to hang out on this thread... does any one want to help pick the composers and works for the classical era blind listening?  We would need mature yet not immediately recognizable music from Mozart and Haydn (should we include Beethoven? his music is very distinctive), and the same from lesser known composers that you believe could go head to head with the giants.

Please don't volunteer composers or works yet, just volunteer that you want to participate in the selection.  We need either a special thread or communication through PM to settle the list of works. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2012, 08:25:24 AM
I'll help. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on April 30, 2012, 10:06:47 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 25, 2012, 03:28:38 PM
I like! And there is indeed a missing track, #13-Die fruhe Liebe by Rosler.

(Add umlauts to taste.)

That is indeed a great disk! I like the Kozeluch tunes  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 30, 2012, 12:15:37 PM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 30, 2012, 04:44:18 AM
*bows*

Speaking of which, this Krommer chap's music is more than pretty. He's had some attention in these parts in the past, but I haven't heard mention of Quartetto di Milano's recording of his opus 18 SQs on Tudor. The disc is not readily available - I nabbed BRO's last copy I think - but it is downloadable and suchforth and so on, so it's not impossible to hear. MI, lovely recording, and music Haydn would have been proud to call his own. A most superior and exclusive listen.

What it doesn't quite do is touch the hem of the sublime. Sorry about that. Maybe next time.

:D

[asin]B00005QTPO[/asin]


Not a whole lot does touch the hem, among the second-tier; Krommer's lucky to have come close.

If you like the quartet disc chasmaniac suggests, then also get this:

[asin]B001R4KQM0[/asin]

There's no duplication between the two, and they are well worth the trouble.

chasmaniac's disc is on the Tudor label and if you scan the Krommer pages in Amazon you'll find a whole lot of stuff that label has issued, mostly (but not entirely) involving the clarinet and a superb performer named Eduard Brunner.  Anything you buy, if you like wind chamber music, you'll enjoy.  And in cruising through I found one I didn't know about, and will go order it now to add to my own Krommer stash. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 30, 2012, 12:17:34 PM
HOWEVER (I forgot to add about Krommer):

Don't get carried so far away with this guy that you make the error of his symphonies, in the Bamert series.  Others may disagree; for me, they're utter tripe.  Most disorganized things I can recall.  Which is really weird since his chamber music and concertos are exactly the opposite.  Is it I?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 30, 2012, 12:31:45 PM
Yes! the Marcolini disc is excellent too. Somewhat later material, iirc, with a dash of Beethovenism added, sounds to me. The Bamert Krommer has fans in these parts. I'd have to relisten to refresh the grey cells on that one. (Outside of Papa, I listen to little orchestral music.)

And Leo: that is a handsome recital, isn't it? Maybe on that score, we can work up a fine little nisus towards consensitivity, er sumfin'.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2012, 12:55:55 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 30, 2012, 12:15:37 PM

Not a whole lot does touch the hem, among the second-tier; Krommer's lucky to have come close.

If you like the quartet disc chasmaniac suggests, then also get this:

[asin]B001R4KQM0[/asin]

There's no duplication between the two, and they are well worth the trouble.

chasmaniac's disc is on the Tudor label and if you scan the Krommer pages in Amazon you'll find a whole lot of stuff that label has issued, mostly (but not entirely) involving the clarinet and a superb performer named Eduard Brunner.  Anything you buy, if you like wind chamber music, you'll enjoy.  And in cruising through I found one I didn't know about, and will go order it now to add to my own Krommer stash.

Yes, I'll certainly second the Marcolini disk. Very enjoyable. I also have another disk with 3 quartets; early, middle and late. When I get home I will refresh my memory on the players, label etc. but for now, I just recall that I really did enjoy it. :-\  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 30, 2012, 04:10:24 PM
Here's the Krommer I found that I want but don't have, so just ordered:


[asin]B001UL3ZYQ[/asin]


Yummy.  But I won't even see it for three weeks because I'm about to fly off on a vacation.  'Bye.  Meanwhile, y'all go order some of these Krommer thingies that are out there, and enjoy!!!!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on May 02, 2012, 10:34:18 AM
Since I am having a hard time finding a copy of the book, Haydn, Mozart and the Viennese School 1740-1780 for a price I consider fair, I once again checked it out of my local public library; for at least the 4th time.  However, I must have never read the Preface before and found an astonishing sentence that I thought might spark a discussion among the Corner's friends:

QuoteIn his recent book on Haydn's Farewell Symphony, James Webster demonstrated in no uncertain terms that the traditional notions of "Classical style" and "Classical period" (which would have astonished Haydn and Mozart) are flawed beyond redemption and need to be replaced.

One of his goals for the book is to explain why the above quoted sentence is true and to suggest how to replace those terms.

This is a book, I will thoroughly enjoy reading.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2012, 10:51:30 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 02, 2012, 10:34:18 AM
Since I am having a hard time finding a copy of the book, Haydn, Mozart and the Viennese School 1740-1780 for a price I consider fair, I once again checked it out of my local public library; for at least the 4th time.  However, I must have never read the Preface before and found an astonishing sentence that I thought might spark a discussion among the Corner's friends:

One of his goals for the book is to explain why the above quoted sentence is true and to suggest how to replace those terms.

This is a book, I will thoroughly enjoy reading.

:)

I am in love with that entire concept, Arnold. Back there somewhere when we all were discussing the string quartets, I made a controversial statement along the lines that the entire notion that Haydn's quartets were like a striving towards "achieving Classicism", which has been stated for 200 years and has reached a point now where it is accepted without argument, is totally untrue. There is no such thing as Classicism.   I only got a little bit of argument at the time, but it was more to the point that Haydn's quartets certainly evolved and 'improved', but not about the Classical aspect at all. I'm certainly interested in this topic, anyway. Of course, I've already totally rejected the Classico-Romantic dichotomy, so might as well shed some more while we're at it. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on May 02, 2012, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 02, 2012, 10:51:30 AM
There is no such thing as Classicism.   
8)

I only vaguely understand this idea since so much of my appreciation of the music from what I consider "The Classical Era" is no doubt based on some assumptions which Heartz will challenge.  This is the  reason why I look forward so much to actually reading the book from start to finish instead of what I've done in the past which is to treat it as a reference book and just look things up.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2012, 11:24:57 AM
Quote from: Arnold on May 02, 2012, 11:02:54 AM
I only vaguely understand this idea since so much of my appreciation of the music from what I consider "The Classical Era" is no doubt based on some assumptions which Heartz will challenge.  This is the  reason why I look forward so much to actually reading the book from start to finish instead of what I've done in the past which is to treat it as a reference book and just look things up.

:)

Well, I'm about 350 pages into it right now and the concept hasn't really raised its head yet. Maybe he is implying that the cumulative effect will lead you to those conclusions as an inescapable fact. Webster addresses that topic outside of his book in an essay, possibly in "Haydn Studies" or maybe it was in the "Cambridge Handbook". I read it a couple of years ago and mulled it pretty hard, so I already was agreeing with the concept before I read Heartz. But you might not agree at all; you don't have to!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on May 02, 2012, 05:31:31 PM
Well, I think it's glaringly obvious that Mozart and Haydn et al would think you were batty if you told them they were writing "classical" music.  Just as Bach and Handel and Vivaldi would not understand you if you were to tell them they were composing "baroque" music.   For them it was simply the style of the times.  But if you talked to someone c. 1780 about "classical music" they would probably think you were referring to some pedant's attempt to recreate the music of the ancient Greeks and Romans, and respond by asking how one makes a lyre and what do panpipes actually sound like.  On the other hand, I think it's also true that there were various recognized structures and methods in composing music in the late 18th century, and that Haydn and Mozart (principally) developed them, and in some cases invented new ones,  for maximum aesthetic effect,  and that style was retrospectively termed "classical".  I've seen more than a few times references to this style as "the first Viennese School"  (the second being Schoenberg et al.).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2012, 05:42:06 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 02, 2012, 05:31:31 PM
Well, I think it's glaringly obvious that Mozart and Haydn et al would think you were batty if you told them they were writing "classical" music.  Just as Bach and Handel and Vivaldi would not understand you if you were to tell them they were composing "baroque" music.   For them it was simply the style of the times.  But if you talked to someone c. 1780 about "classical music" they would probably think you were referring to some pedant's attempt to recreate the music of the ancient Greeks and Romans, and respond by asking how one makes a lyre and what do panpipes actually sound like.  On the other hand, I think it's also true that there were various recognized structures and methods in composing music in the late 18th century, and that Haydn and Mozart (principally) developed them, and in some cases invented new ones,  for maximum aesthetic effect,  and that style was retrospectively termed "classical".  I've seen more than a few times references to this style as "the first Viennese School"  (the second being Schoenberg et al.).

Oh yes, no doubt about that. But the implication has long been that there was an intention to create a specific style, certainly I have inferred this from a lot of things I have read over the years both from professional writers and from amateur listeners. If you have read anything in evolution theory, you will know that for a long time, people believed that evolution had some sort of direction to it, like the end that things got to was a product of intent (eg - developing wings with the intention of being able to fly some day). And implicit in the term "First Viennese School", for example, is the idea that the leading proponents (Haydn and Mozart) worked on this project and now they were teaching it to others. But all of these terms, right down to 'Classical' are constructs that were invented and applied retroactively in order for scholars to be able to neatly catalog everything.

"Is this lepidopteran a butterfly or a moth?"

"Sleeps with its wings laid down flat, so it's a moth"

"Is Beethoven a Classicist or a Romantic?"

"Stirs up a lot of emotion, clearly a Romantic". 

::)  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 04, 2012, 04:23:25 AM
Wranitzky string quintet and sextet on Brilliant. Disappointing. Muddy, loose, blah.

[asin]B006YXGU42[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2012, 04:25:30 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on May 04, 2012, 04:23:25 AM
Wranitzky string quintet and sextet on Brilliant. Disappointing. Muddy, loose, blah.

[asin]B006YXGU42[/asin]

Damn, sorry to hear that. I enjoyed his symphonies, and wanted to hear some chamber music. Recordings are thin on the ground though... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on May 04, 2012, 04:29:07 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 04, 2012, 04:25:30 AM
Damn, sorry to hear that. I enjoyed his symphonies, and wanted to hear some chamber music. Recordings are thin on the ground though... :-\

8)

Not quite, I have this recording too, and its far from muddy or loose. Ensemble Cordia is made up of experienced musicians, and they play well what the composer has written. It has a meandering pace, but the lines are well defined, though I discovered that after several hearings. True it can be better played, but do not dismiss this commendable performance.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2012, 04:34:30 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 04, 2012, 04:29:07 AM
Not quite, I have this recording too, and its far from muddy or loose. Ensemble Cordia is made up of experienced musicians, and they play well what the composer has written. It has a meandering pace, but the lines are well defined, though I discovered that after several hearings. True it can be better played, but do not dismiss this commendable performance.

Thanks, Harry. I can give it a chance. I know that sometimes things don't strike us well at first hearing but down the road they suddenly click. Of course, I also know the opposite to be true from time to time.  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 04, 2012, 04:43:08 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 04, 2012, 04:29:07 AM
Not quite, I have this recording too, and its far from muddy or loose. Ensemble Cordia is made up of experienced musicians, and they play well what the composer has written. It has a meandering pace, but the lines are well defined, though I discovered that after several hearings. True it can be better played, but do not dismiss this commendable performance.

I listened twice before judging, alas!

On the other hand, Harry's a cat, and I always respect that! Different ears etc.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 04, 2012, 06:21:24 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 04, 2012, 04:34:30 AM
Thanks, Harry. I can give it a chance. I know that sometimes things don't strike us well at first hearing but down the road they suddenly click. Of course, I also know the opposite to be true from time to time.  :D

Hi Gurn - the Vranicky brothers, i.e. Antonin & Pavel (or Anton & Paul Wranitsky wrote a LOT of music; I just have 3 discs of their work (2 being some symphonies); and I've not heard the chamber disc under question, BUT if you are interested in classical sextets, then the one shown below by them may be of interest, i.e. 1 sextet by Anton & 3 by Paul - short All Music review HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/antonn-paul-vranick-sextets-for-flute-oboe-and-string-quartet-w121574) - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-4sNSzGS/0/O/VranickySextets.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Chaszz on May 10, 2012, 04:13:34 PM
When one reads about Gluck's importance, usually the theme is his reformation of opera. But I find the orchestral aspects of his music very beautiful and interesting. (I must admit that I also highly value the orchestral aspects of the operas of my other favorite opera composers, Wagner, Puccini and Strauss. I also am aware that opera composers enlarged the orchestra by adding new instruments in more than one era, and contributed in other leading ways to the development of the orchestra and instrumental music). 

So I'm interested in to what extent did Gluck in his orchestral aspects have a hand in forming the mature "Classical" style.  Did he have a formative influence, or did he just adapt what had been done by Haydn (and Mozart?)? Since Gluck as an orchestrator and instrumental writer is never discussed, it's hard to find out. I could probably get a foggy sort of answer by looking up the dates of each composer's early maturity and comparing them, but I figure it's better to ask here, if anyone is familiar enough with Gluck's orchestral and formal development to answer.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Chaszz on May 10, 2012, 04:19:27 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 02, 2012, 05:42:06 PM

..."Is Beethoven a Classicist or a Romantic?"

"Stirs up a lot of emotion, clearly a Romantic". 




To pianist and musicologist Charles Rosen ("The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven)" and to Peter, founder of the Beethoven Reference Site, Beethoven is clearly a Classical not a Romantic composer. (Unless your remark is intended to be ironic.) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on May 10, 2012, 04:19:27 PM
To pianist and musicologist Charles Rosen ("The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven," and to Peter, founder of the Beethoven Reference Site, Beethoven is clearly a Classical not a Romantic composer. (Unless your remark is intended to be ironic.)

Unquestionably ironic. :)

Quote from: Chaszz on May 10, 2012, 04:13:34 PM
When one reads about Gluck's importance, usually the theme is his reformation of opera. But I find the orchestral aspects of his music very beautiful and interesting. (I must admit that I also highly value the orchestral aspects of the operas my other favorite opera composers, Wagner, Puccini and Strauss. I also am aware that opera composers enlarged the orchestra in more than one era, and contributed in other leading ways to the development of the orchestra and instrumental music). 

So I'm interested in to what extent did Gluck in his orchestral aspects have a hand in forming the mature "Classical" style.  Did he have a formative influence, or did he just adapt what had been done by Haydn (and Mozart?)? Since Gluck as an orchestrator and instrumental writer is never discussed, it's hard to find out. I could probably get a foggy sort of answer by looking up the dates of each composer's early maturity and comparing them, but I figure it's better to ask here, if anyone is familiar enough with Gluck's orchestral and formal development to answer.

Well, Time's Arrow plays a part in the answer, Chaszz. By the time that Haydn and Mozart came along in an influential sort of way, Gluck was a Grand Old Man in Vienna, and even though he still composed (at a slower rate, of course), I think he was beyond being influenced by current composers. However, he was clearly a big influence on Mozart, at least in an operatic sort of way. It is a lot harder to define the influences on Haydn though. Anyway, can we assume here that you are talking about the orchestra while it is still being used accompany vocals? Or do you mean in a purely instrumental sort of way? :-\

His purely instrumental music was not very pioneering, while his operatic music rather was.

From the New Grove article on Gluck:

Instrumental works
Orchestral: 9 symphonies in  C, D, D, D, D, E, F, F, G, most (scored) for 2 horns & Strings

12 other syms., CZ-Bm, Pnm, D-Dl, Rtt, WRl, I-PAc, S-SK, Skma, some doubtful; Chaconne, B , DK-Kk, doubtful

Chamber: 6 Sonatas, 2 vn, bc (London, 1746)

Sonata, E, 2 vn, b,
Sonata, F, 2 vn, b,
Adagio, c, wind insts,
Notturno, 2 fl, b,
Sestetto, fl, ob, 2 vn, va, vc,
all doubtful

Harpsichord: Andante, G, doubtful

There were also several ballets, many lost. I would believe that given the time period, they were probably his most influential instrumental works.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Chaszz on May 11, 2012, 07:58:47 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 10, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Unquestionably ironic. :)

Well, Time's Arrow plays a part in the answer, Chaszz. By the time that Haydn and Mozart came along in an influential sort of way, Gluck was a Grand Old Man in Vienna, and even though he still composed (at a slower rate, of course), I think he was beyond being influenced by current composers. However, he was clearly a big influence on Mozart, at least in an operatic sort of way. It is a lot harder to define the influences on Haydn though. Anyway, can we assume here that you are talking about the orchestra while it is still being used accompany vocals? Or do you mean in a purely instrumental sort of way? :-\

His purely instrumental music was not very pioneering, while his operatic music rather was...

8)

Thanks for your answer, Gurn. I'm talking about Gluck in a more purely instumental way, not just specifically as an accompanist to arias but also including that.

I think your two statements "By the time that Haydn and Mozart came along in an influential sort of way, Gluck was a Grand Old Man in Vienna..." and "His purely instrumental music was not very pioneering while his operatic music rather was..." may be self-contradictary. (Note: I don't know whether in the second statement you are referring to the instrumental aspects of his opera music or to non-opera instrumental music he may have composed.)

Let's talk about two important aspects of the Classical instrumental style, first the phrasing, tonal sound, and "feel" of the music, second the large formal structural aspects, such as sonata form. Both of these in contrast to the preceding eras of Baroque and transition. Obviously Gluck's influence on the latter stylistic aspect, the large forms, would have had to be very limited, because he wrote operas, not symphonies. But it seems to me that in the former aspect, he may have been very significant. Since his overtures and the other instances of instrumental writing in his opera music are already sounding just like the mature classical style, and he was already a Grand Old Man when Haydn came along, isn't it accurate to say he might have had a big influence on Haydn in this respect? Were there any other transitional or early Classical composers, preceding Haydn, who displayed this mature Classical style? Indeed may Gluck not have been decisive in creating it? And if so isn't he missing a good deal of credit in musical history, simply because he wrote operas not symphonies?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on May 11, 2012, 08:03:24 AM
Only an oblique answer (if indeed it be any answer at all) . . . but both Mendelssohn and Berlioz had great admiration for Gluck. I know that by itself, that won't mean much . . . somebody will be apt to say that Beethoven thought the world of Dittersdorf . . . .
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on May 11, 2012, 08:34:12 AM
I always feel a pang of sadness whenever Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf is put forward as an example of an undeservedly well-known composer.

:(

Same for Telemann.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on May 17, 2012, 07:04:01 PM
I've just listened with pleasure to the 'Concerto bergamasco' by Simon Mayr, new on Naxos:

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.570927.jpg)

The concerto, the first movement of which is for flute, the second for clarinet, the third for basset horn, and the fourth for all three plus piccolo, was apparently composed for an Italian virtuoso who could play all four instruments and wanted a work that could show off his virtuosity to its fullest! The concerto itself is not going to win any raves for drama or originality (the first movement has a particularly insistent "allusion to" Beethoven's Second Symphony) but it was a quite pleasant 25 minutes and a nifty tribute to a forgotten super-soloist.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 18, 2012, 11:53:14 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 17, 2012, 07:04:01 PM
I've just listened with pleasure to the 'Concerto bergamasco' by Simon Mayr, new on Naxos:

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.570927.jpg)

The concerto, the first movement of which is for flute, the second for clarinet, the third for basset horn, and the fourth for all three plus piccolo, was apparently composed for an Italian virtuoso who could play all four instruments and wanted a work that could show off his virtuosity to its fullest! The concerto itself is not going to win any raves for drama or originality (the first movement has a particularly insistent "allusion to" Beethoven's Second Symphony) but it was a quite pleasant 25 minutes and a nifty tribute to a forgotten super-soloist.
How interesting. I usually like such oddities.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 19, 2012, 06:08:05 AM
Titz, Anton (1742-1811) - String Quartets - boy I've not thought about this composer in a while - last quote below from Gurn about 2 yrs ago!  Now own 3 volumes of these works, and starting w/ the first one this morning (added a 3rd pic of the vol. 3) - :)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 04, 2010, 03:31:01 PM
Speaking of St. Petersburg, Catherine must have had some kind of musical establishment. It seems as though half the musicians in Europe spent some time there. Another one who stayed for the duration of his life was Anton Ferdinand Titz. Once again the adventurous Sonic Guy turned me on to this composer, and I ended up with 2 of his disks, not knowing if there are any others available. That would be these:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Titz2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Titz1cover.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/TitzSQ3/960343384_gwyeA-O.jpg)

They are worth seeking out, nice music.

In any case, here is some info on Titz, also from Grove's:

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on May 20, 2012, 04:57:49 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 17, 2012, 07:04:01 PM
I've just listened with pleasure to the 'Concerto bergamasco' by Simon Mayr, new on Naxos:

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.570927.jpg)



I have a different recording of this work, and the thought of such a fascinating novelty really appealed to me - until I heard it a couple of times.  Once you learn that it's for one solo player only, so that there are no duet/trio/quartet solo bits, you quickly realize that an effective performance is going to involve a visual element as the soloist changes instruments to the amazement of all in attendance, one hopes....  but on a CD that effect is completely lost and so the concerto now has to stand on its own musical merits.  Unfortunately those are rather few.  I happen to have a fondness for Mayr's religious music, and even - though I don't collect opera - a fair bit of that side of his work.  But this concerto paled very quickly, sad to say....

But, oh well.  Some you win, some you don't.  And believe me, I've lost much more thuddingly than this one.

Assuming anybody cares, this is the version I bought:

[asin]B00000444O[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 20, 2012, 07:04:12 PM
I thought to post this in the thread of new releases, but then I thought this is really the proper place for this excellent novelty:

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/images/mo0305hp.jpg)

QuoteWolfgang Amadeus Mozart    
Complete Music For Two Fortepianos    
Duo Cristofori: Penelope Crawford and Nancy Garrett, fortepiano    
Mozart's output for two separate fortepianos is limited to a few major works: the great D major Sonata, K. 448 and the C minor Fugue, K. 426, composed in the wake of the composer's acquaintance with the Bach and Handel aficionado, Baron Gottfried van Swieten. Robert Levin's completion of the Larghetto & Allegro in E flat major supplements these works to provide a complete survey of this repertoire in exciting performances by Duo Cristofori.

http://www.musicaomnia.org/newreleases.asp

:)



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on May 21, 2012, 12:46:13 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 19, 2012, 06:08:05 AM
Titz, Anton (1742-1811) - String Quartets - boy I've not thought about this composer in a while - last quote below from Gurn about 2 yrs ago!  Now own 3 volumes of these works, and starting w/ the first one this morning (added a 3rd pic of the vol. 3) - :)

The Titz 4s are fantastic.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2012, 04:18:40 AM
Quote from: Eric on May 20, 2012, 07:04:12 PM
I thought to post this in the thread of new releases, but then I thought this is really the proper place for this excellent novelty:

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/images/mo0305hp.jpg)

http://www.musicaomnia.org/newreleases.asp

:)

Like that! The 2 piano music has been given even shorter shrift than the 4 hands works. I liked Crawford a lot in Beethoven and Schubert, so giving her a go in Mozart should be painless. Thanks for the tip, Antonio... umm, Eric!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on May 21, 2012, 07:47:48 AM
Quote from: Eric on May 20, 2012, 07:04:12 PM
I thought to post this in the thread of new releases, but then I thought this is really the proper place for this excellent novelty:

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/images/mo0305hp.jpg)

http://www.musicaomnia.org/newreleases.asp

:)

I'm at the library, so I can't make a quick check,  but aren't at least some of these works in the van Oort set?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 21, 2012, 08:19:12 AM
Quote from: Eric on May 20, 2012, 07:04:12 PM
I thought to post this in the thread of new releases, but then I thought this is really the proper place for this excellent novelty:

(http://www.musicaomnia.org/images/mo0305hp.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HMZ16FR6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Thanks for posting this new release from Musica Omnia - have a lot of their discs, including a number w/ Penelope Crawford, so will add to my 'wish list'!  :)

Now the track listing (see attachment) and the recordings on just one disc listed as the 'Complete.....' is somewhat confusing - currently I own the older 2-CD Philips Duo offering (added pic above) w/ Ingrid Haebler et al; now the 3 works on the Crawford recording are also present w/ Haebler, but there are 7 more works on the latter's performances - not sure if these are all truly Mozart's compositions but the K. numbers are KV 19d, 381/123a, 358/186c, 497, 357/497a+500a, 501, and 521.

Exploring the Mozart Project Website (http://www.mozartproject.org/compositions/index.html) which may be the most updated listing of his works, the partial answer (or more so?) are works for 4-hands (on a single piano) & those for 4 hands on two pianos.  So, would be curious what our Köchel catalogue experts might say?  Please 'chime in' -  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 21, 2012, 08:24:30 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2012, 07:47:48 AM
I'm at the library, so I can't make a quick check,  but aren't at least some of these works in the van Oort set?

Yes, they are the Fugue in C minor K. 426 and the Sonata in D major K. 448 (375a).

Musica Omnia adds the Larghetto and Allegro in E-flat major, K. deest (completed by Robert Levin).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 21, 2012, 08:29:15 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 21, 2012, 08:19:12 AM
Thanks for posting this new release from Musica Omnia - have a lot of their discs, including a number w/ Penelope Crawford, so will add to my 'wish list'!  :)

Now the track listing (see attachment) and the recordings on just one disc listed as the 'Complete.....' is somewhat confusing - currently I own the older 2-CD Philips Duo offering (added pic above) w/ Ingrid Haebler et al; now the 3 works on the Crawford recording are also present w/ Haebler, but there are 7 more works on the latter's performances - not sure if these are all truly Mozart's compositions but the K. numbers are KV 19d, 381/123a, 358/186c, 497, 357/497a+500a, 501, and 521.

Exploring the Mozart Project Website (http://www.mozartproject.org/compositions/index.html) which may be the most updated listing of his works, the partial answer (or more so?) are works for 4-hands (on a single piano) & those for 4 hands on two pianos.  So, would be curious what our Köchel catalogue experts might say?  Please 'chime in' -  :D

You're welcome, Dave!  :)

The Musica Omnia release only includes the complete music for two fortepianos, not the "fortepiano duets", which include the sonatas and the other miscellaneous works for four hands that you refer. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2012, 08:31:37 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 21, 2012, 08:19:12 AM
Thanks for posting this new release from Musica Omnia - have a lot of their discs, including a number w/ Penelope Crawford, so will add to my 'wish list'!  :)

Now the track listing (see attachment) and the recordings on just one disc listed as the 'Complete.....' is somewhat confusing - currently I own the older 2-CD Philips Duo offering (added pic above) w/ Ingrid Haebler et al; now the 3 works on the Crawford recording are also present w/ Haebler, but there are 7 more works on the latter's performances - not sure if these are all truly Mozart's compositions but the K. numbers are KV 19d, 381/123a, 358/186c, 497, 357/497a+500a, 501, and 521.

Exploring the Mozart Project Website (http://www.mozartproject.org/compositions/index.html) which may be the most updated listing of his works, the partial answer (or more so?) are works for 4-hands (on a single piano) & those for 4 hands on two pianos.  So, would be curious what our Köchel catalogue experts might say?  Please 'chime in' -  :D

Not sure your question, Dave. You are right, the works you listed as additional are all 4 hands/1 keyboard works. Lots of recordings of those. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on May 21, 2012, 06:30:47 PM
I don't know how I forgot this one, considering that I bought it when it came out last year.
[asin]B0055WXVTU[/asin]
On fortepianos.

Contains the Sonata, K. 448; Variations in G for Piano Duet, K. 501; Fantasias in c minor, d minor, and c minor, K.596/397/475, and the Larghetto/Allegro in E flat major, as completed by Stadler--but not the Fugue K. 426
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2012, 06:55:34 PM
Listening to this disk which arrived today. I bought it as part of my church music project, and find it to be very interesting;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/EberlinToccatasFuguescover.jpg)

Eberlin was the highest ranking ever head honcho in the Archdiocese of Salzburg, despite being preceded by Biber, and followed by the Mozart's and Michael Haydn, they never attained the preeminent rank that he did. Stylistically, he is more or less on the boundary between Late Baroque and 'pre-Classical', although these pieces, the only works he had published in his lifetime, are definitely strict, Fux-ian counterpoint fugue. In an oddity (or something unusual at any rate) 5 of the 9 are in minor keys. It enhances their aura, so to speak, and also their desirability for my purpose of including them in my project. Hmm, Salzburg...  a treasury of sacred music indeed!  0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 26, 2012, 06:15:43 PM
In Search of Haydn & Mozart - two separate DVD offerings as shown below - I've watched these several times over the last few weeks, and each adds more details w/ repeated viewing - a combination of history, commentary, and interviews (conductors, performers, and historians) - especially enjoyed Ronald Brautigam's insights into these two composers but he is just one of many discussing these two - highly recommended - :)

(http://www.orchestra18c-webshop.com/WebRoot/StoreNL/Shops/63024268/MediaGallery/haydn_front.jpg)  (http://www.stcharleslibrary.org/blog/movies/images/InSearchOfMozart.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2012, 06:19:19 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 26, 2012, 06:15:43 PM
In Search of Haydn & Mozart - two separate DVD offerings as shown below - I've watched these several times over the last few weeks, and each adds more details w/ repeated viewing - a combination of history, commentary, and interviews (conductors, performers, and historians) - especially enjoyed Ronald Brautigam's insights into these two composers but he is just one of many discussing these two - highly recommended - :)

(http://www.stcharleslibrary.org/blog/movies/images/InSearchOfMozart.jpg)

Dave,
I have (and greatly enjoy) the Haydn version. I am curious if the Mozart seems to follow in the same vein. I like the approach, discussions with everyone from museum curators to musicians thru musicologists. And nice scenery to match. I have both the Haydn and Beethoven on my wishlist, if only other things didn't suddenly obtrude on my plans... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 27, 2012, 05:29:23 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 26, 2012, 06:19:19 PM
Dave,
I have (and greatly enjoy) the Haydn version. I am curious if the Mozart seems to follow in the same vein. I like the approach, discussions with everyone from museum curators to musicians thru musicologists. And nice scenery to match. I have both the Haydn and Beethoven on my wishlist, if only other things didn't suddenly obtrude on my plans... :-\

Hi Gurn - the Mozart DVD is pretty much organized like the Haydn version and just as good - plenty of commentary from all sorts of people; again, I especially liked Brautigam's participation.  I watched the Beethoven just once on Netflix and probably should stream that one again.  Also, I read last night that Phil Grabsky, the producer of this series, may be working on a Chopin DVD?  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on May 27, 2012, 06:47:56 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 27, 2012, 05:29:23 AM
Hi Gurn - the Mozart DVD is pretty much organized like the Haydn version and just as good - plenty of commentary from all sorts of people; again, I especially liked Brautigam's participation.  I watched the Beethoven just once on Netflix and probably should stream that one again.  Also, I read last night that Phil Grabsky, the producer of this series, may be working on a Chopin DVD?  Dave

Dave, I'm real excited to see these at some point. Are they availible on Netflix streaming then? I hope so!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 27, 2012, 04:07:27 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 27, 2012, 06:47:56 AM
Dave, I'm real excited to see these at some point. Are they availible on Netflix streaming then? I hope so!

Hi Leo - the Beethoven DVD can be streamed from Netflix (may watch it again tonight - probably my least favorite of the series @ the moment); the Mozart DVD can be streamed from Amazon for $2; the Haydn presently does not seem to be a 'streaming option' - but buy one and stream the two others?  Still a bargain and the Haydn (and the Mozart) are quite enjoyable & educational!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on June 04, 2012, 07:59:25 PM
Geez.  A week's gap between the DVD posts and now.  Did the world end and I wasn't watching?

Well, it's a good way to break the monotony of Mozart - I am so sick of Mozart!  (This isn't terribly serious a complaint; just that 3 weeks ago  was in Salzburg and wanted to learn about places associated with such people as Michael Haydn, Heinrich Biber, and a couple of lesser lights.  But did anybody care about them?  No.  It was bloody Mozart, Mozart, Mozart - recordings for sale, two museums to visit, chocolate with his picture everywhere on the wrappers (and not terribly good chocolate either)....  In fact, our guide, who was a Salzburgerin and presumably knew all there was to know about the place, showed me Michael Haydn's alleged gravesite which I've since learned isn't, and even pronounced his name HEY-dn to rhyme with GREY....


So anyway, I'm all excited at the moment by four, count them four, discs of chamber music by Franz Vincent Krommer (1759-1831) who has been mentioned here before.  Here's what I acquired:


[asin]B000025QS3[/asin]


[asin]B001UL3ZKK[/asin]


[asin]B001UL3ZYQ[/asin]


[asin]B0017SETXS[/asin]


     The first three obviously form a sort of set - the label has some other Krommer discs by others, as well - played by the winds of the Tonhalle Orch. Zürich, and if wind octets are your thing (they are certainly mine) they are stunning.  Naxos have done a lot of the same things, and they are cheaper, but the playing is by comparison rather perfunctory.  Give me the Swiss guys any day. 
     The fourth disc is of a string trio and a piano quartet, and while the Swiss discs are not PI (meaning they have modern horns, but in this case so what?), the Phoenix disc is.  The three string players are all longtime denizens of Germany's PI ensembles, notably Concerto Köln, and the violist is also the co-founder of the Freiburg Barock-Orch.  The pianist uses a very fine fortepiano which is sadly not identified as to year or source; still, his playing matches that of his colleagues rather well.  The one Amazon customer review isn't as taken with this as I am, and I do agree that the string trio might have been a bit less forced (they really could have been a wee more gentle and gotten a more lyrical tone at times), but I don't think it's nearly as weak as he does, and in any case the piano quartet is really quite a gem.

     Now I'm waiting for a couple of oboe discs by this Mr. Krommer person, one of quartets and quintets, the other of concertos.  I'm guessing I'll be happy. 


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2012, 04:30:30 AM
Conrad,
Krommer is a big favorite here in the Corner, there have been several discussions over the years. None, however, have included these lovely-appearing wind octets! I agree, the Naxos versions are a bit perfunctory, although they give a flavor of the music anyway. However, I am familiar with the Zurich's wind section from other disks, including a super one of the Haydn Feldparthien, and the appeal there is patent. I'll have to have a chat with the Tudor's.... :)

BTW, I have that 4th disk also, and have derived a good deal of pleasure from it. I suppose that the complaints are valid, although lyricism isn't one of my target goals. Personal failing, I'm afraid... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 05, 2012, 07:46:25 AM
As stated by Gurn, Franz Krommer is well known to many of us; I now own about a dozen discs - 3 of the wind works mentioned; 2 are on the Naxos label  (Budapest Wind Ensemble & Michael Thompson Wind Ensemble) - have not listened to these in a while, but the other is shown below w/ the Amphion Wind Octet - these performances are on 'period instruments', so for those interested in Krommer's wind music played on the instruments of his time, then a recommendation!  Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519S1Q%2B7RwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on June 05, 2012, 08:04:22 AM
Re: Krommer

Yes, Krommer is a good composer from the Classical era.  I first was exposed to his works through the Contemporaries of Mozart symphony series.  And have since acquired several chamber works, usually featuring the clarinet.  However, a recording I like a lot, but is not chamber, is his Clarinet Concerto in E-flat coupled with another concerto by yet another unsung Classical era composer, Joseph Eybler.  It also does not hurt that there is a Theme and Variations by Hummel on the disc.

Warmly recommended:

[asin]B001UL40DG[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on June 05, 2012, 08:40:27 AM
Some information on Joseph Eybler - a composer I intend to investigate more fully -

QuoteEybler was born into a musical family. His father was a teacher, choir director and friend of the Haydn family. Joseph Eybler studied music with his father before attending Stephansdom (the cathedral school of St. Stephen's Boys College) in Vienna. He studied composition under Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, who declared him to be the greatest musical genius in Vienna apart from Mozart. He also received praise from Haydn who was his friend, distant cousin and patron.

In 1792 he became choir director at the Karmeliterkirche (Carmelite Church) in Vienna. Two years later he moved to the Schottenkloster, where he remained for the next thirty years (1794-1824). Eybler also held court posts, including that of court Kapellmeister (chapel master) (1824-33). The Empress Marie Therese commissioned many works from him, including the Requiem in C minor (1803).

Friendship with Mozart

Through Joseph Haydn, Eybler met Mozart, who gave him some lessons and entrusted him with the rehearsal of his opera Così fan tutte. Eybler also conducted some performances of Così fan tutte.

On May 30, 1790 Mozart wrote a testimonial for the young Eybler: "I, the undersigned, attest herewith that I have found the bearer of this, Herr Joseph Eybler, to be a worthy pupil of his famous master Albrechtsberger, a well-grounded composer, equally skilled at chamber music and the church style, fully experienced in the art of the song, also an accomplished organ and clavier player; in short a young musician such, one can only regret, as so seldom has his equal."
Mozart and Eybler remained friends to the end. As Eybler wrote: "I had the good fortune to keep his friendship without reservation until he died, and carried him, put him to bed and helped to nurse him during his last painful illness."
After Mozart's death, Constanze Mozart asked Eybler to complete her husband's Requiem. Eybler tried but could not complete the commission perhaps, it is thought, because of his great respect for the music of his friend Mozart. (Franz Xaver Süßmayr completed the task).

The above came from Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Leopold_Eybler)

This disc of his string quartets looks good:

[asin]B000H4VZGC[/asin]

as does this disc of quintets:

[asin]B004PGNM0U[/asin]

Lucky for me, both are on Spotify.  As are several other recordings of choral music and miscellaneous orchestral works.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on June 05, 2012, 05:37:29 PM
I was quite overwhelmed by Mr. Eybler's Christmas Oratorio:


[asin]B000034CYD[/asin]


and also his Requiem, which may not challenge Mozart or Michael Haydn in that era, but it isn't overwhelmed by them either:


[asin]B000001RXB[/asin]


And finally, may I contribute - especially since we have been talking Krommer - this:


[asin]B001UL40DG[/asin]

which includes Krommer's Op. 36 and also the Hummel Variations (in small print on the top title bar of the jacket).  Krommer is the standout in this program, the Eybler is more routine, but it's certainly worth a look if the disc itself appeals.  (Brunner the performer, and Stadlmair the conductor, are simply wizards.  They are not, however, period-style.)

All in all I vote Eybler gets an honored place in our second rank in this forum.  You know, behind Joe and Wolfie and two or three others, but after that (to paraphrase) he oughta be a contender!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2012, 06:00:05 PM
In looking over my Eybler hoard, it isn't very large, but I like it all (even the duplicates!);

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/EyblerSymphoniescover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51q7xrCX-gL-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/EyblerStringQuintetTriocover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/EyblerChambercover2.jpg)

Given that we all seem to have different disks, there must be more Eybler out there than we anticipated. :) 

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: springrite on June 05, 2012, 06:11:25 PM
I read that Eybler was the one who was to complete the Mozart Requiem, but part of the way through Constanza gave the job to the person who did and was credited with it (though he used the parts that Eybler completed) because Constanza wanted a quicker job so she could get the money fast.

Well, I have no Eybler so something is going to the cart in the next few days.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on June 05, 2012, 06:26:38 PM
Obviously Eybler was a far more abler composer than most people give him credit for.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on June 05, 2012, 06:46:16 PM
The story about Eybler and the Requiem, per various program booklets - I suspect close enough if not precisely perfect:

Eybler had studied with Mozart, even lived in their house, and Mozart thought a lot of him.  So when Mozart died Constanze asked Eybler to do the rest of the Requiem so she could collect the payments due.  He started, and did compose a few pages; but then, allegedly, he realized who was the great genius and who wasn't, and went to Constanze to beg off on the basis that he couldn't do the job justice.  So she tried the next disciple in line, Süssmayr, by any measure a far poorer composer than Eybler, but at the time and in a hurry, who knew?  (Note:  The final product as we know it today - the Süssmayr completion - does include a small amount of Eybler, and scholars who pore over critical analyses of these things can tell you just what is whose.)   

Eybler's own Requiem dates from a decade or so later and doesn't begin to approach the wild extremes of brilliance that Mozart gave us, but it's solid and really quite moving in a very steady, even sort of way.  Put it up against the original requiem that Süssmayr wrote entirely on his own, and the gap is almost as large between the second rank (Eybler) and the third (Süss.) as between the first and second levels. 

Put it another way.  Eybler was a gifted journeyman.  Süssmayr was a hack.

Should there be any interested parties, here's the only recording I know of, of the Süssmayr Requiem (the one he wrote himself) along with his version of Mozart's:


[asin]B0009A4106[/asin]


Performance of Süss. is as good as needs be.  Of the Mozart it's perfectly decent, but you can do lots, lots better, given how many there have been....
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on June 06, 2012, 04:04:21 PM
Back to Krommer for a bit:  Today I received this item, ordered last week:


[asin]B000058UUZ[/asin]


May I say, in as loud a typing voice as I can,   STAY AWAY!!!!   This was one big mistake, one which I'll rectify by buying someone else's version as soon as I can.

Without hunting up any reviews I took this "on faith" that the reputations of Hyperion and conductor Howard Shelley would carry the day.  Unfortunately I do not find oboist Sarah Francis in the same league at all.  Her tone is consistently pinched, not infrequently strained, sometimes unstable in the higher registers, and in certain passages (notably in the first Krommer, first mvt.) possessed of a very strange timbre that sounds for all the world like a quack.  No I'm not making Prokofiev jokes.  I'm serious; Ms. Francis seems to be trying to create an effect in some of Krommer's odder passages, and she misfires.

I am also astounded, in looking up the listing on Amazon, to see a five-star review by one David J. Friedlander, whom I "know" a bit from the Amazon classical music forum as being possessed of excellent taste (meaning he agrees with me a lot) and a fine sense of quality performance (meaning he likes what I like).  What happened here is beyond my comprehension. 

Oh well.  This is my opinion, and I authorized this message.  I also ordered Ms. Francis' disc of Krommer oboe quartets and quintets; when it arrives, if it contradicts appreciably the opinion I have of her concerto disc, I'll let you know.   
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2012, 04:08:52 PM
Cool. Most unfortunate too. I have her playing some Vanhal oboe quartets very passably. Maybe this was her first disk, done while still at oboe school... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on June 06, 2012, 06:44:48 PM
Further KrommeResearch tells me that what I apparently SHOULD have ordered for the chamber music, instead of all-in-one with Sarah Francis, is as follows:

For the Quintets:


[asin]B000FI900I[/asin]


and for the Quartets (with one duplication, but I get some yummy Fiala this way too):


[asin]B001UL3ZJG[/asin]


Now with the Naxos disc of the Quintets I'm relying on two very warm reviews by customers, neither of whom is my old Amazon forum chum David Friedlander (see earlier post).  It's still a chance, but it's Naxos, so the bank will not crash.  For the Tudor disc of Quartets the player is Simon Fuchs, and he's lead oboe of the Zürich Tonhalle and thus also lead oboe of La Gran Partita, the Swiss group that did those three chamber discs I extolled yesterday.  Knowing that, I can only ask myself why the hell I didn't do this in the first place....

But let me at least wait until the Francis thing shows up and is played.  As Gurn says, maybe the concerto disc was her first, fresh out of oboe school....  (I love that thought!!)    ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on June 06, 2012, 07:18:04 PM
Quote from: Uncle Connie on June 06, 2012, 04:04:21 PM
Back to Krommer for a bit:  Today I received this item, ordered last week:


[asin]B000058UUZ[/asin]


May I say, in as loud a typing voice as I can,   STAY AWAY!!!!   This was one big mistake, one which I'll rectify by buying someone else's version as soon as I can.

Without hunting up any reviews I took this "on faith" that the reputations of Hyperion and conductor Howard Shelley would carry the day.  Unfortunately I do not find oboist Sarah Francis in the same league at all.  Her tone is consistently pinched, not infrequently strained, sometimes unstable in the higher registers, and in certain passages (notably in the first Krommer, first mvt.) possessed of a very strange timbre that sounds for all the world like a quack.  No I'm not making Prokofiev jokes.  I'm serious; Ms. Francis seems to be trying to create an effect in some of Krommer's odder passages, and she misfires.

I am also astounded, in looking up the listing on Amazon, to see a five-star review by one David J. Friedlander, whom I "know" a bit from the Amazon classical music forum as being possessed of excellent taste (meaning he agrees with me a lot) and a fine sense of quality performance (meaning he likes what I like).  What happened here is beyond my comprehension. 

Oh well.  This is my opinion, and I authorized this message.  I also ordered Ms. Francis' disc of Krommer oboe quartets and quintets; when it arrives, if it contradicts appreciably the opinion I have of her concerto disc, I'll let you know.   

I've been listening to the recording of Sarah Francis playing the Quintets and Quartet and do not hear what you describe.  And, she generally receives reviews overflowing with praise, from the likes of Penguin, Fanfare, AMG and BBC Magazine.  If her playing of the Concerto (which I do not have) is anything like her playing in the chamber works, I would not have anything to complain about.

YMMV, of course.

I have been listening to Heinz Holliger playing the Oboe Concerto with the English Chamber Orchestra and enjoying it.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Uncle Connie on June 07, 2012, 11:08:47 AM
Quote from: Arnold on June 06, 2012, 07:18:04 PM
I've been listening to the recording of Sarah Francis playing the Quintets and Quartet and do not hear what you describe.  And, she generally receives reviews overflowing with praise, from the likes of Penguin, Fanfare, AMG and BBC Magazine.  If her playing of the Concerto (which I do not have) is anything like her playing in the chamber works, I would not have anything to complain about.

YMMV, of course.

I have been listening to Heinz Holliger playing the Oboe Concerto with the English Chamber Orchestra and enjoying it.

:)


Thanks, Arnold.  And that's exactly my problem:  Apparently nobody else hears it as I do.  (Well - at least you don't on another disc, and the various reviewers I've noted don't, though at least one did have some qualms, just not the same ones.)

So this morning I made the official determination that the problem was me, and I set out to prove it.  I played Ms. Francis and her Krommer on three different machines, i.e. with three quite different sets of properties and acoustics, and in addition - in the case of the one machine where I can wander around a large room and sit in different aspects to the speakers - I was all over the place.

Result:  I'm very sorry to report that I'm still right.  My feelings have moderated somewhat in certain ways - for instance, I think part of the problem may be engineering balance and/or miking - but I still really do not like her tone.  Other oboists of whom I am fond include - well, I mentioned Simon Kraus of Zürich in another post, and you mentioned Holliger, and there's also Anthony Camden who has done some fine Baroque things for Naxos.  Lajos Lencses of Budapest made heaps and piles of nice oboe recordings a decade or so ago; I have no idea if he's still going.  I've heard a lot of good things about Alex Klein, who just happens to have recorded the Krommer things, so maybe that's my other choice here. 

But as noted in an earlier post, and especially with your comments, Arnold, I want to wait until the quartet/quintet disc you have arrives here.  It's perfectly okay for me to end up disliking a CD, but at least I want to know more about WHY before I go off the deep end and tell people the oboist is awful.  So I'll get back to you soonest....

 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2012, 10:45:56 AM
I suppose I was familiar with the ensemble Cappella Coloniensis, but today I'm just discovering how nicely they cover the Classical era.   They've recorded some standard rep like Haydn symphonies and Mozart piano concertos, but also some gems from Fasch, Hasse, Gossec and other not so well known composers.

Right now listening to Haydn No. 92 - and enjoying it very much.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on July 19, 2012, 12:16:16 AM
(http://musicbuyingmaniac.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/51kvgzlyezl-_sl500_aa280_.jpg%3Fw%3D150%26h%3D150)
I thought I'd post this since I've been enjoying it lately. I can't say I listen to much classical music that I could describe as "mellow." But that's how I'd describe this recording. Halstead's fortepiano playing (and sound) is very sweet, elegant and soft. This recording really does something for me. I love how the strings seem to float above the piano and how the mood of the piano never does change. It's dreamy! This must have been a lovely afternoon in somebody's 18th century parlor.   
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The new erato on July 22, 2012, 12:27:24 AM
The three Haydn songs on this disc are simply glorious.

[asin]B007JYQT4Q[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
It's been quiet at the Corner (summer holidays perhaps), but I wanted to give a big thanks to Leo for pointing out these discs by Galuppi. I have volumes 2 & 3, with plans to get the third one (volume 1 in this case). He wrote in his original post about them being melodic and lush (and I agree with that). There is something simple and direct about these works that I find attractive. Big thumbs up from me!!!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J52-qD%2BfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61c53QZ3gKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2012, 12:43:52 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
It's been quiet at the Corner (summer holidays perhaps), but I wanted to give a big thanks to Leo for pointing out these discs by Galuppi. I have volumes 2 & 3, with plans to get the third one (volume 1 in this case). He wrote in his original post about them being melodic and lush (and I agree with that). There is something simple and direct about these works that I find attractive. Big thumbs up from me!!!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J52-qD%2BfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61c53QZ3gKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, quiet. Too quiet?  :)

I only briefly paused over those disks despite wanting to pursue them further. Diversity of interests overwhelmed me, dammit. May I assume they are played on a cembalo? A pianoforte of any stripe seems inappropriate somehow, so I reckon they are on harpsichord... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2012, 01:09:09 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 14, 2012, 12:43:52 PM
Yes, quiet. Too quiet?  :)

I only briefly paused over those disks despite wanting to pursue them further. Diversity of interests overwhelmed me, dammit. May I assume they are played on a cembalo? A pianoforte of any stripe seems inappropriate somehow, so I reckon they are on harpsichord... :)

8)
He plays on a modern piano, although I have read that he used 'modest pedalling'. Despite the third disc having been recorded in 2002, the label's website still says it will be part of a 10 disc series. Interestingly, this was also written at the website:
QuoteOne of the great revelations brought about by this work is that Galuppi, far from being a straightforward baroque composer writing for the traditional keyboard instruments (harpsichord and clavichord), which have been employed in all previous recordings, actually waited until the piano had been developed before creating most of his phenomenal output. Many of the original manuscripts are titled "Sonata for Pianoforte", and much of the writing, making substantial use of the sustain pedal, simply do not work on the earlier instruments.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2012, 01:18:41 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2012, 01:09:09 PM
He plays on a modern piano, although I have read that he used 'modest pedalling'. Despite the third disc having been recorded in 2002, the label's website still says it will be part of a 10 disc series. Interestingly, this was also written at the website:

:-[  That IS interesting. Of course, there actually were a few people writing for the piano back then, but they were awfully thin on the ground. Cristofori had been making pianos for sale for probably 2 decades by the time of these works (1850's unless I miss my guess), so promoting them had to fall to someone. Why not Galuppi? One of the top composers of the era!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on August 14, 2012, 09:29:59 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
It's been quiet at the Corner (summer holidays perhaps), but I wanted to give a big thanks to Leo for pointing out these discs by Galuppi. I have volumes 2 & 3, with plans to get the third one (volume 1 in this case). He wrote in his original post about them being melodic and lush (and I agree with that). There is something simple and direct about these works that I find attractive. Big thumbs up from me!!!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J52-qD%2BfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61c53QZ3gKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 14, 2012, 12:43:52 PM
May I assume they are played on a cembalo? A pianoforte of any stripe seems inappropriate somehow, so I reckon they are on harpsichord... :)

See my comments on a wonderful complete set performed the harpsichord posted on the Italian Baroque thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2376.msg628643.html#msg628643), though Galuppi is admittedly a transitional composer... :)
But I figured the harpsichord might not be as popular on this thread...? ::) ;D

[asin]B007C7FDJM[/asin]

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 16, 2012, 11:10:02 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 14, 2012, 12:28:55 PM
It's been quiet at the Corner (summer holidays perhaps), but I wanted to give a big thanks to Leo for pointing out these discs by Galuppi. I have volumes 2 & 3, with plans to get the third one (volume 1 in this case). He wrote in his original post about them being melodic and lush (and I agree with that). There is something simple and direct about these works that I find attractive. Big thumbs up from me!!!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J52-qD%2BfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61c53QZ3gKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Mc ukrneal, I'm very happy that you enjoy this set too! I have some Galuppi on harpsichord, but these recordings on piano really resonate with me more. One of those rare times where I don't go PI!  :o 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on August 18, 2012, 09:06:30 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 29, 2011, 04:02:01 PM
Leo,
At first I thought that might be the same Kozeluch as the one that I have, but I see now that it isn't, since mine is actually a different performer:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/39/52/b7f0e893e7a0a6d54fc16110.L.jpg)

This is nice music, however, and I am sure you are going to like that disk.

The other is new to me. Interested in your feedback. :)

8)

Gurn, I finally got a hold of this Kozeluch fortepiano disk! I haven't heard it yet, but I'll report back when I do. Long live the classical era fortepiano!!!

8)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2012, 09:13:39 AM
Quote from: Leo K on August 18, 2012, 09:06:30 AM
Gurn, I finally got a hold of this Kozeluch fortepiano disk! I haven't heard it yet, but I'll report back when I do. Long live the classical era fortepiano!!!

8)

8)

Leo,
Excellent! I really like that disk. As you already know, Kozeluch was a keyboard specialist. In his own time, that's what  he was known for. Mozart didn't like him, so he was probably pretty good. :D  Anyway, I predict you will be very pleased. And indeed, let these works always be played on the instruments they were written for; nothing else will quite do. 0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on August 19, 2012, 02:18:23 PM
Crosspost
Quote from: Brian on August 19, 2012, 12:25:16 PM
One last listen to this CD before sending a very favorable review to MusicWeb:

[asin]B007ZJ1M9C[/asin]

Right up the alley of anybody who likes cheery, refreshing music from about 1800 - if you like, say, Weber or the first three Schubert symphonies, you'll want to hear this.
(modern instruments)

Worth noting: the double concerto is for clarinet and bassoon, and quite admirably the bassoonist is really treated as an equal partner. Plus, the finale hints at the same movement from Haydn's "Bear"!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2012, 02:57:50 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 19, 2012, 02:18:23 PM
Crosspost(modern instruments)

Worth noting: the double concerto is for clarinet and bassoon, and quite admirably the bassoonist is really treated as an equal partner. Plus, the finale hints at the same movement from Haydn's "Bear"!

Brian,
Can you tell us anything about Westerhoff? He's a new name to me!  Clarinet and bassoon make a lovely combination, as Beethoven taught us in his 3 Duos for Clarinet & Bassoon (WoO 27 1-3). I'll have to work my way around to that, thanks!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on August 19, 2012, 06:07:46 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 19, 2012, 02:18:23 PM
Crosspost(modern instruments)

Worth noting: the double concerto is for clarinet and bassoon, and quite admirably the bassoonist is really treated as an equal partner. Plus, the finale hints at the same movement from Haydn's "Bear"!

I am listening on MOG.  Interesting that the cover says "double concerto" but the track list calls it Symphonie Concertante.  In any event, nice music.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2012, 06:14:42 PM
Quote from: Arnold on August 19, 2012, 06:07:46 PM
I am listening on MOG.  Interesting that the cover says "double concerto" but the track list calls it Symphonie Concertante.  In any event, nice music.

Back in the day, it would have been called a Symphonie concertante. That double & triple stuff (which I deplore, BTW ::) ) didn't get invented til later down the road. Mozart's Concerto for Flute & Harp is also a Symphonie concertante. Being eccentric as I am, for example I never use the term "triple concerto" for Beethoven's Op 56. It is a Symphonie concertante, but I call it a Trio Concerto just because I can. :D 

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on August 19, 2012, 06:16:32 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 19, 2012, 06:14:42 PM
Back in the day, it would have been called a Symphonie concertante. That double & triple stuff (which I deplore, BTW ::) ) didn't get invented til later down the road. Mozart's Concerto for Flute & Harp is also a Symphonie concertante. Being eccentric as I am, for example I never use the term "triple concerto" for Beethoven's Op 56. It is a Symphonie concertante, but I call it a Trio Concerto just because I can. :D 

8)

Ah, interesting, Gurn.  Odd how cpo couldn't decide which to use.  Regarding, Westerhoff's style, after hearing all of two movments of one work I can say he superfically reminds me of Mozart.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2012, 06:19:08 PM
Quote from: Arnold on August 19, 2012, 06:16:32 PM
Ah, interesting, Gurn.  Odd how cpo couldn't decide which to use.

I think that one is more correct to use the term that was prevalent at the time of composition. Thus Beethoven wrote a Symphonie concertante, while Brahms wrote a Double Concerto. But that's just my opinion. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on August 19, 2012, 06:46:41 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 19, 2012, 02:57:50 PM
Brian,
Can you tell us anything about Westerhoff? He's a new name to me!  Clarinet and bassoon make a lovely combination, as Beethoven taught us in his 3 Duos for Clarinet & Bassoon (WoO 27 1-3). I'll have to work my way around to that, thanks!

8)

Westerhoff died quite young - just 42, in 1806 - and he was concertmaster at some extremely obscure court in Germany (headed by a Princess!), where he succeeded another man who had died more or less instantly on taking the job, who in turn had succeeded J.C.F. Bach! Quite little is known about Westerhoff generally, except that he was originally from Osnabruck. As far as I know he only had six published compositions; the Clarinet Concerto was Op 5 and a flute concerto was Op 6. There is also a viola concerto. (The two other works on the CPO CD do not have opus numbers.) Quite interesting choices of soloists, then. This is the first recording of his music; the clarinet concerto had been rediscovered in some castle's archives by the legendary Dieter Klocker, who passed the manuscript on to the CPO soloist, Sebastian Manz, shortly before his (Klocker's) death in 2011.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2012, 04:14:05 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 19, 2012, 06:46:41 PM
Westerhoff died quite young - just 42, in 1806 - and he was concertmaster at some extremely obscure court in Germany (headed by a Princess!), where he succeeded another man who had died more or less instantly on taking the job, who in turn had succeeded J.C.F. Bach! Quite little is known about Westerhoff generally, except that he was originally from Osnabruck. As far as I know he only had six published compositions; the Clarinet Concerto was Op 5 and a flute concerto was Op 6. There is also a viola concerto. (The two other works on the CPO CD do not have opus numbers.) Quite interesting choices of soloists, then. This is the first recording of his music; the clarinet concerto had been rediscovered in some castle's archives by the legendary Dieter Klocker, who passed the manuscript on to the CPO soloist, Sebastian Manz, shortly before his (Klocker's) death in 2011.

Ah, very interesting. Thanks for that. Yes, ole Dieter sure could sniff out a clarinet piece at 1000 metres, couldn't he?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on August 20, 2012, 05:35:53 AM
To continue the discussion (and I am not sure if this CD has already mean mentioned) of Kozeluch and Bassoon Concertos, I am listening to this recording, which along with the Kozeluch Bassoon concerto, it has two BC by JC Bach

[asin]B000006N2O[/asin]

Bassoon concertos are a favorite of mine - there is something about the blend of the bassoon and strings which I find especially pleasing.  The playing on this CD is very fine and the Kozeluch work is one of his best, imo. 

EDIT: at first I thought this disc had both of Kozeluch's Bassoon concertos, but in checking closer, it has two by JC Bach and the C Major by Kozeluch.  My confusion was that both JC Bach and Kozeluch wrote a BC in B-flat.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2012, 06:11:20 AM
Quote from: Arnold on August 20, 2012, 05:35:53 AM
To continue the discussion (and I am not sure if this CD has already mean mentioned) of Kozeluch and Bassoon Concertos, I am listening to this recording, which along with the Kozeluch Bassoon concerto, it has two BC by JC Bach

[asin]B000006N2O[/asin]

Bassoon concertos are a favorite of mine - there is something about the blend of the bassoon and strings which I find especially pleasing.  The playing on this CD is very fine and the Kozeluch work is one of his best, imo. 

EDIT: at first I thought this disc had both of Kozeluch's Bassoon concertos, but in checking closer, it has two by JC Bach and the C Major by Kozeluch.  My confusion was that both JC Bach and Kozeluch wrote a BC in B-flat.

Thanks for that link, Arnold. I share your enjoyment of bassoon concertos, also of bassoon 4tets & 5tets which even more showcase that wonderful sound.

For a lesser known composer who really knew the bassoon, I can heartily recommend this one;

[asin]B00006IWV4[/asin]

I would welcome a discussion of classical era bassoon music here, both concertos and chamber music. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leon on August 20, 2012, 07:27:59 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 20, 2012, 06:11:20 AM

I would welcome a discussion of classical era bassoon music here, both concertos and chamber music. :)

8)

This is a very fine disc of bassoon + strings, with music by Reicha.

[asin]B005203582[/asin]

Reicha as is well known wrote dozens of wind quintets, I think the complete collection numbers ten discs, but these works are for bassoon and strings and are simply wonderful.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on September 21, 2012, 01:59:51 PM
I'm not sure if this disc has been mentioned before:

[asin]B0085AXSAQ[/asin]

It's excellent as usual with Alexander-Max.  :)

QuoteThe instrument used for this recording is the Grand Piano by Ferdinand Hofmann (1756-1829), Vienna, ca. 1790, a beautifully preserved cherry-wood piano made in Vienna between 1785 and 1790. It is one from the permanent collection at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. Hofmann, an organ and piano builder, was a leading member and president (1808) of the civic keyboard-maker's association, and a recipient of a court appointment in 1812. This piano is one of his earlier efforts in a production history spanning from 1784 to 1825. His twenty existing grand pianos document the development of Viennese piano technology between Mozart's later years and the death of Schubert. The keyboard has a five-octave range, FF–f3. The sound may be altered by a hand stop moderator (mute) centred above the nameplate, or by knee levers below the keyboard that lift an undivided damper rail. Having the privilege to play such an instrument gives one insight into the early performance practices as well as the aesthetics of both piano design and sound during the late 18th century.

-- Susan Alexander-Max
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 21, 2012, 06:42:52 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 16, 2012, 11:10:02 AM
Mc ukrneal, I'm very happy that you enjoy this set too! I have some Galuppi on harpsichord, but these recordings on piano really resonate with me more. One of those rare times where I don't go PI!  :o 8)

Galuppi was a favourite of Michelangeli. His 5th sonata especially (why that is I cannot tell: that's the extent of my Galuppi discography !). Full-blown piano sound of course, but given the Michelangeli treatment: crystalline tone, immaculately articulated pianism. Recommendations for a second step?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 21, 2012, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 21, 2012, 01:59:51 PM
I'm not sure if this disc has been mentioned before:

[asin]B0085AXSAQ[/asin]

It's excellent as usual with Alexander-Max.  :)

I have the Prussians on the harpsichord (van Asperen) . Do you recommend Alexander-Max? How does that particular pianoforte sound ?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on September 22, 2012, 07:32:25 AM
Quote from: André on September 21, 2012, 06:47:05 PM
I have the Prussians on the harpsichord (van Asperen) . Do you recommend Alexander-Max?
Absolutely, it's a highly recommendable disc, almost mandatory for people interested in this transitional repertory. Alexander-Max gets an outstanding balance between the structural aspects of every sonata and the deep feelings expressed by the composer, making easy to understand how CPE was a model for Haydn and Mozart. I think the fortepiano is, in that sense, more suitable to these sonatas than the harpsichord.

Quote from: André on September 21, 2012, 06:47:05 PM
How does that particular pianoforte sound ?
Excellent, it's an instrument superbly conserved, with no traces of aging. Maybe a little bit more Walter than Stein in conception, it's especially suited to express deep feelings in the slow movements.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on October 06, 2012, 06:40:44 AM
It exist more specialized threads dedicated to Beethoven and his piano sonatas, but I think this link belongs to this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ep7SS8S_o1Y

Wonderful, isn't it?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 06:57:14 AM
Even better than that! The denizens of The Corner are more simpático with that sort of thing, I would think. Tell me, Gordo, have you previously heard of a Jones-Round fortepiano? It's a new one on me, the sound is great for an original 1805 instrument. I will do some research, but one must think on the face of it that it will be an English action double or triple strung bass. Very nice indeed!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on October 06, 2012, 07:21:49 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 06, 2012, 06:40:44 AM
It exist more specialized threads dedicated to Beethoven and his piano sonatas, but I think this link belongs to this thread:


Wonderful, isn't it?

Nice timing! I've been on a Op. 57 kick since yesterday morning; was listening to Kempff a few hours ago, and now just as I was wondering whom to listen on YouTube (no Gulda for now, thank you), I see your post. :)


[Although I think you should have cross-posted this elsewhere too -- the "Beethoven in Period Instruments" thread, for instance... I rarely visit the Corner.]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on October 06, 2012, 07:25:32 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 06:57:14 AM
Even better than that! The denizens of The Corner are more simpático with that sort of thing, I would think. Tell me, Gordo, have you previously heard of a Jones-Round fortepiano? It's a new one on me, the sound is great for an original 1805 instrument. I will do some research, but one must think on the face of it that it will be an English action double or triple strung bass. Very nice indeed!  :)

8)

I have never heard of a Jones-Round fortepiano, Gurn.

Well, Ooi is a new name to me, too.

I found some other videos dedicated to Beethoven or arrangements of Beethoven's music, played by him on different pianofortes.

1 - Piano Sonata Op. 49-2 No. 20 II Tempo di Menuetto (1796)
(replica after A.Stein ca. 1790, 5-octave)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUZk06FRnWo&feature=BFa&list=PL16BE3E7E18C74A52

2 - Große Fuge (Winkler Arr.) Op. 133 (1826)
(J. Broadwood 1816, 6-octave)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gRLbxLr4ik&feature=BFa&list=PL16BE3E7E18C74A52

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ialvRFZFEho

3.- Symphony No. 3 "Eroica" Op. 55 (Liszt Arr. 1865?)) I Allegro con brio
(J. Streicher 1846, 7-octave)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGrGXL4xC4o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1nnAuO7oog

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on October 06, 2012, 07:37:15 AM
BTW, doing some research, I have found that Hiroaki Ooi has recorded several discs with the piano sonatas (there are 3 discs on iTunes) and at least one disc of piano arrangements of Beethoven's symphonies and string quartets. I have tried, but physical copies are apparently impossible to get.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 07:43:04 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 06, 2012, 07:37:15 AM
BTW, doing some research, I have found that Hiroaki Ooi has recorded several discs with the piano sonatas (there are 3 discs on iTunes) and at least one disc of piano arrangements of Beethoven's symphonies and string quartets. I have tried, but physical copies are apparently impossible to get.

Interesting. He is a more-than-competent player with a very tasteful technique. Of course, he's no Lang Lang, but that can only be a good thing, yes?  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on October 06, 2012, 07:44:59 AM
Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 06, 2012, 07:37:15 AM
BTW, doing some research, I have found that Hiroaki Ooi has recorded several discs with the piano sonatas (there are 3 discs on iTunes) and at least one disc of piano arrangements of Beethoven's symphonies and string quartets. I have tried, but physical copies are apparently impossible to get.

There's one on E-Bay for $5.99. Regarding the others, you can send a tweet (https://twitter.com/XupoakuOu) to the man himself to find out. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on October 06, 2012, 07:51:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 07:43:04 AM
Interesting. He is a more-than-competent player with a very tasteful technique. Of course, he's no Lang Lang, but that can only be a good thing, yes?  :D

8)

Yes..., who knows, maybe a research titled "The Invention of the Piano Virtuoso" wouldn't be unworthy of your attention.  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on October 06, 2012, 07:53:15 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 06, 2012, 07:44:59 AM
There's one on E-Bay for $5.99. Regarding the others, you can send a tweet (https://twitter.com/XupoakuOu) to the man himself to find out. ;)

Great idea! :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 05:16:19 PM
Quiet in The Corner... too quiet!  :o  My fault, of course. I've been poring over the specific and sadly neglecting the generic.

[asin]0393098680[/asin]

I am currently in the process of rereading this excellent little book. If you were to explore it yourself, you would find the foundation of my often expressed beliefs in the nature of Classico-Romantic music. Since this is a subject that crops up all over the Board with painful frequency, and often expounded upon by people who really shouldn't be expounding at this point in time, I heartily commend it to you. It is that oddity among books today; informative AND affordable!! Who knew? So anyway, if anyone out there cares to scoop up a copy and perhaps discuss it here in public, I would greatly enjoy that. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2012, 07:59:14 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 24, 2012, 07:55:13 AM
I've requested Gurn's book above from my local library, as well as, a interlibrary loan for this one:

[asin]0195166655[/asin]

Both look to be very interesting to me.

Brown is quite interesting. I've got a few of his essays on violin technique. He can be kind of a radical, IMO, and I think he may well be the root of Norrington's occasional OTT behavior. The "if a little bit is good, then a lot is SUPER!" school. But his research is wonderful and interesting. Let me know how you like that, I might snap up a copy for myself. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on October 29, 2012, 08:54:40 AM
Thanks for the gist of those chapters, sanantonio. :) It all seems very interesting, but how helpful of a book do you think it would be for someone who has no musical training whatsoever?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on October 29, 2012, 09:38:31 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 29, 2012, 08:59:00 AM
I can't say for sure since because I have had some musical training it is hard for me to anticipate which terms or ideas might be confusing to someone without the benefit of that kind of education.  However, it is not overly technical and does not require someone being able to read a score in order to get through the material.  His style is rather dry, though - but which might be the product of a poor translation.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2012, 09:55:51 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 29, 2012, 08:54:40 AM
Thanks for the gist of those chapters, sanantonio. :) It all seems very interesting, but how helpful of a book do you think it would be for someone who has no musical training whatsoever?

I have no musical training whatsoever. That is no impediment so far (I'm about 100 pages in) because there are no musical examples. It is primarily a history book, IMO. It does presuppose that you aren't a totally ignorant bastard, but you have no worries there, since you aren't.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on October 29, 2012, 10:05:35 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2012, 09:55:51 AM
I have no musical training whatsoever.

Well, I'm not falling for that again, Mr. I-was-a-member-of-a-church-choir(?)-and-played-the-trumpet. :D ;)

QuoteIt does presuppose that you aren't a totally ignorant bastard, but you have no worries there, since you aren't.   :)

8)

Reassuring. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2012, 10:49:02 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 29, 2012, 10:05:35 AM
Well, I'm not falling for that again, Mr. I-was-a-member-of-a-church-choir(?)-and-played-the-trumpet. :D ;)

Reassuring. Thanks. :)

But trumpets didn't even have valves back when I was in secondary school! :o  So none of that counts. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on October 29, 2012, 10:52:25 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2012, 10:49:02 AM
But trumpets didn't even have valves back when I was in secondary school!

8)

Oh, and a precocious PI-specialist too! :o
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2012, 11:13:38 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 29, 2012, 10:52:25 AM
Oh, and a precocious PI-specialist too! :o

:D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 29, 2012, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2012, 11:13:38 AM
:D  8)

Well, you two are too much into yourselves @ the moment!  ;) ;D

Now, musical training?  Well, I took up the accordion as a teenager for a couple of years, so could @ least read 'basic' music!  ;) ;D

I was going to put this post in the reading thread but would have been buried?  May have a better purpose here, just a guess - I'm currently reading the book shown below; YES, pretty basic but recent and w/ a LOT of great color photos - divided into a number of sections including one that discusses the instruments (ancient to modern), plus others about composers - I think an excellent introduction for the ones getting started in classical music, a good review for oldsters (like me), and maybe a nice explanation of areas that even experienced members might find useful - but just my opinion - Dave :)

(http://www.lorenzbooks.com/files/big/L/2011/0754824438-bc2806.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2012, 05:34:09 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 08, 2012, 05:18:18 AM
One of the benefits of subscribing to Spotify is that you can access this wonderful series from Naxos:

18th Century Classics (http://www.naxos.com/series/18th_century_classics.htm)

On another note, I have been checking out this book from my library over and over waiting until I could find a used copy to purchase for less than $100.  Finally my wait has been rewarded with finding a copy for the princely sum of $28.00!

[asin]0393037126[/asin]

:D

Yes, this IS a great series. I made many happy discoveries there. If you hadn't listened to him yet, let me recommend Franz Ignaz Beck. Way ahead of his time.

Man, that was a great deal!  I waited about a year for the same reason and finally got a nearly new perfect copy for $95. 28 would have been (and still is) freaking amazing! Good on ya!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on November 09, 2012, 10:25:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2012, 05:34:09 AM
Yes, this IS a great series. I made many happy discoveries there. If you hadn't listened to him yet, let me recommend Franz Ignaz Beck. Way ahead of his time.

8)

Man I'm loving this series.  So many wonderful recordings from my favorite period; too many to list.  But yes, Beck is nicely represented. 

I just listened to a couple of things that I want to plug:

F.X. Richter Symphonies

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yAs5KTVvL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Anton Zimmerman String Quartets

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TQyB%2BAWpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 09, 2012, 07:05:56 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on November 09, 2012, 10:25:53 AM
F.X. Richter Symphonies

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yAs5KTVvL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

A favorite of mine. Fantastic stuff...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on November 24, 2012, 07:53:36 PM
On modern instruments in January:

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/naxos8573071.jpg)

On period instruments in January:

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/5/8570944.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on November 24, 2012, 09:53:46 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 24, 2012, 07:53:36 PM
On period instruments in January:

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/5/8570944.jpg)

Psst...that should go here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1729.0). Take it down before Gurn sees it. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2012, 03:01:59 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 24, 2012, 09:53:46 PM
Psst...that should go here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1729.0). Take it down before Gurn sees it. ;)

:D

Although the Clementi certainly looks interesting! I've wondered if anyone would essay these works again. And PI to boot!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on November 25, 2012, 06:40:48 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2012, 03:01:59 AM
:D

Although the Clementi certainly looks interesting! I've wondered if anyone would essay these works again. And PI to boot!   :)

8)

Uh-oh, you may wish to re-read, it's the other CD that's PI, the Clementi is with the Rome Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on November 28, 2012, 04:18:50 AM
Here's a well researched and nicely done BBC documentary on Mozart:

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrXpzOFknN0&list=UURTF4urMJbe8DN_nGtaNPFg&index=9&feature=plcp)

Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVwxFvjU5vk&list=UURTF4urMJbe8DN_nGtaNPFg&index=8&feature=plcp)

Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYEImmQdCz8&list=UURTF4urMJbe8DN_nGtaNPFg&index=7&feature=plcp)

As a bonus, most of the performances are HIP.

I have only one (major) quibble: in Part 2 which is dedicated to his operas not even the slightest mention is made of Don Giovanni...  :o

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2012, 05:22:24 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 28, 2012, 04:18:50 AM
Here's a well researched and nicely done BBC documentary on Mozart:

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrXpzOFknN0&list=UURTF4urMJbe8DN_nGtaNPFg&index=9&feature=plcp)

Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVwxFvjU5vk&list=UURTF4urMJbe8DN_nGtaNPFg&index=8&feature=plcp)

Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYEImmQdCz8&list=UURTF4urMJbe8DN_nGtaNPFg&index=7&feature=plcp)

As a bonus, most of the performances are HIP.

I have only one (major) quibble: in Part 2 which is dedicated to his operas not even the slightest mention is made of Don Giovanni...  :o

Thanks for the links. I wonder if the omission of DG is made to counterbalance the fact that in many (most?) books on his operas, DG gets the lion's share!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on November 28, 2012, 05:38:04 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2012, 05:22:24 AM
Thanks for the links. I wonder if the omission of DG is made to counterbalance the fact that in many (most?) books on his operas, DG gets the lion's share!

Hah! Maybe you're right... :) Here the lion's share is taken by TMoF and TMF, with TAfTS thrown in for good measure.

Anyway it is an excellent documentary which I highly recommend watching.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on November 28, 2012, 05:40:12 AM
I have see part of it... up to, I think, his Paris days. But I've seen the Beethoven in its entirety.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2012, 05:43:45 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 28, 2012, 05:40:12 AM
. . . But I've seen the Beethoven in its entirety.

Loved the dog.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on November 28, 2012, 05:59:16 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 28, 2012, 05:40:12 AM
I have see part of it... up to, I think, his Paris days. But I've seen the Beethoven in its entirety.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 28, 2012, 05:43:45 AM
Loved the dog.

I'll watch the Beethoven one tomorrow.  My golden rule is one a day. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on November 28, 2012, 06:11:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 28, 2012, 05:43:45 AM
Loved the dog.

The Beethoven, Karl. The.

;D

Quote from: Florestan on November 28, 2012, 05:59:16 AM
I'll watch the Beethoven one tomorrow.  My golden rule is one a day. :)

I'm goldener: one episode per day. ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on November 28, 2012, 07:36:25 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 28, 2012, 06:11:34 AM
I'm goldener: one episode per day. ;)

Sir, one of the greatest advantages of being unemployed is that one can fill his days only with things one really cares about...  ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on November 28, 2012, 08:17:21 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 28, 2012, 07:36:25 AM
Sir, one of the greatest advantages of being unemployed is that one can fill his days only with things one really cares about...  ;D :D ;D

Lucky you! :(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on January 06, 2013, 07:03:37 PM
Oh-my-God!  :o

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260034868601.jpg)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/rear/0/4260034868601.jpg)

I need it, I need it.

(Available on the NML, just in case)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on January 07, 2013, 12:32:27 PM
I posted this in the WAYLT thread but wanted to see if anyone else felt as good as I do about this recording.  I find the music uniformly wonderful - and the Hanover Band under the leadership of  Anthony Halstead is very good.

Quote from: sanantonio on January 07, 2013, 12:22:38 PM
Selections from this excellent box

[asin]B000OQDRR8[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 05:53:37 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 07, 2013, 12:32:27 PM
I posted this in the WAYLT thread but wanted to see if anyone else felt as good as I do about this recording.  I find the music uniformly wonderful - and the Hanover Band under the leadership of  Anthony Halstead is very good.

I've looked at that box several times and not pulled the trigger yet. Have this one, by the same fellows;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOperaOverturescover-1.jpg)

And then, on modern instruments, have this great set of other sinfonies concertantes;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Sinfoniasconcertantescover.jpg)

c p o   is such a great label for some things!!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 07, 2013, 06:12:31 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 05:53:37 PM
I've looked at that box several times and not pulled the trigger yet. Have this one, by the same fellows;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOperaOverturescover-1.jpg)

And then, on modern instruments, have this great set of other sinfonies concertantes;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Sinfoniasconcertantescover.jpg)

c p o   is such a great label for some things!!

8)
I now have all three. All three are excellent, I am happy to report. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2013, 04:25:28 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 07, 2013, 06:12:31 PM
I now have all three. All three are excellent, I am happy to report.

Ach, you are always out on the edge, Neal... :)  I would quite like that JC Bach SC's set though. I've always rather enjoyed that Frenchified sort of a semi-symphony; pleasant listening.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 08, 2013, 05:58:01 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2013, 04:25:28 AM
Ach, you are always out on the edge, Neal... :)  I would quite like that JC Bach SC's set though. I've always rather enjoyed that Frenchified sort of a semi-symphony; pleasant listening.  :)

8)
I like the period. The first box I got (the one sanantonio posted) was so good that I started getting more. You may remember I also got all the Michael Haydn symphonies on CPO, which I am enjoying tremendously. But in general, I love the classical period almost as much as I enjoy the romantic period, and I enjoy Baroque too, so going back even further is of interest. I just cannot keep up with all the releases (though these have been a priority).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2013, 06:14:27 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 08, 2013, 05:58:01 AM
I like the period. The first box I got (the one sanantonio posted) was so good that I started getting more. You may remember I also got all the Michael Haydn symphonies on CPO, which I am enjoying tremendously. But in general, I love the classical period almost as much as I enjoy the romantic period, and I enjoy Baroque too, so going back even further is of interest. I just cannot keep up with all the releases (though these have been a priority).

I know what you mean about keeping up. That was one of the things that caused me to narrow my focus a few years ago. Now, even with only a few composers in my sights, I can still barely keep up!  But I have never lost my taste for the Kleinmeisteren, probably because they speak the same musical language, albeit not quite at the same fluency level (i.e. - as Haydn & Mozart). And when it comes to mastery of the galant style, JC is as good as anyone. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on January 08, 2013, 06:55:02 AM
I have discovered that I prefer the early Classical, including the galante, style to the later generations.  My sweet spot is music from 1741-1791 (although there are many exceptions before and after that 50 year span).  The music of Beethoven's later years I find less to my taste than the earlier opuses.  I guess I am just a superficial guy.

:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 08, 2013, 07:10:44 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 08, 2013, 06:55:02 AM
I have discovered that I prefer the early Classical, including the galante, style to the later generations.  My sweet spot is music from 1741-1791 (although there are many exceptions before and after that 50 year span).  The music of Beethoven's later years I find less to my taste than the earlier opuses.  I guess I am just a superficial guy.

:D
Have you tried the Richter symphonies on Naxos (pictures below)? They are fantastic and sound right up your alley.
[asin]B000REGIXM[/asin]
[asin]B0020LSWWA[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2013, 07:15:12 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 08, 2013, 06:55:02 AM
I have discovered that I prefer the early Classical, including the galante, style to the later generations.  My sweet spot is music from 1741-1791 (although there are many exceptions before and after that 50 year span).  The music of Beethoven's later years I find less to my taste than the earlier opuses.  I guess I am just a superficial guy.

:D

It's OK, the world needs superficial people too... :D

Actually, if you buy into the theory of '3 Phases of Beethoven' (not sure I do), I am a 1st phaser primarily, followed (naturally enough) by the 2nd phase. My personal sweet spot (confined to just 50 years then) is 1760-1810.

So I guess I'm superficial too. I can live with that.   0:)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 08, 2013, 07:19:09 AM
I don't understand this whole 'superficial' thing, which can also apply to operetta. It's like if there isn't 50% angst, 50% minor chords, and 50% darkness, it must be shallow and superficial. I find classical period music often faces this silliness. That said, I find that classical period music can brighten my day like no other.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on January 08, 2013, 07:25:58 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 08, 2013, 07:10:44 AM
Have you tried the Richter symphonies on Naxos (pictures below)? They are fantastic and sound right up your alley.
[asin]B000REGIXM[/asin]
[asin]B0020LSWWA[/asin]

Yes and yes.   :D  Richter, Beck, and others of the 18th Century Series from Naxos are some of my favorite discs.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2013, 07:15:12 AM
It's OK, the world needs superficial people too... :D

Actually, if you buy into the theory of '3 Phases of Beethoven' (not sure I do), I am a 1st phaser primarily, followed (naturally enough) by the 2nd phase. My personal sweet spot (confined to just 50 years then) is 1760-1810.

So I guess I'm superficial too. I can live with that.   0:)

8)

Depending up on the work, that 50-year span will shift for me - it should probably include all of Haydn's music.   I was just pulling some years out of the blue.  The point for me is that once the music starts getting what I consider "heavy" it begins to lose me.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on January 08, 2013, 08:11:32 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 08, 2013, 07:19:09 AM
I don't understand this whole 'superficial' thing, which can also apply to operetta. It's like if there isn't 50% angst, 50% minor chords, and 50% darkness, it must be shallow and superficial. I find classical period music often faces this silliness.

Not only Classical, but also Baroque and Early, and even Early Romanticism.  :(

Another kind of silliness, closely related to that, is that if there isn't an orchestra of 100 strings, 75 winds and 50 brass it must be worthless.  ;D


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 13, 2013, 04:00:52 PM
Christof Ernst Friederich Weyse - I recently obtained a couple of discs of this composer from BRO - had not heard of him but became curious (as we often do w/ new discoveries) - not much available on GMG nor did he seem to have composed a lot of non-vocal music. SO, while reading the liner notes from the 2 CDs (pics below) that I purchased and looking at a few Wiki articles (English & translated French sites), I put together a summary below in quotes - I was really looking for some chamber works but at the moment cannot determine if he wrote any in this genre?  He is considered to be a Danish composer despite being born in now northern Germany.  :)

QuoteChristof Ernst Friederich Weyse (1774-1842) was born in Altona near Hamburg in northern Germany; his birth city was under Danish control until after his death.  After an unsuccesful attempt to train w/ the aging CPE Bach, the 15 y/o Weyse travelled to Copenhagen in 1789 to study with JAP Schulz, the musical director of the Royal Opera.  He studied organ and was appointed assistant organist at the Reformed Church in 1792; his seven (7) symphonies were composed during this period, 1795-1799.  Due to a personal crisis, he stopped composing in 1801, but remained active as a musician and held the important post of organist at the Church of Our Lady, Copenhagen's main church.  However, Weyse never returned to writing symphonies, but these earlier works were revised and performed occasionally.

Most of his compositions were vocal works, including 20 cantatas, 6 operas, and many songs w/ piano accompaniment; the latter contributed to much of his fame and popularity in Denmark.  But he was also known as an excellent keyboardist (both organ & piano), and performed many of Mozart's piano concertos; indeed, he knew Mozart's widow, when she lived in Copenhagen from 1810 to 1820. Weyse's improvisational skills were considered extraodinary; his composer friend, Friedrich Kuhlau (1786-1832) stated that he 'is the greatest pianist I have ever heard,' and Ferdinand Ries declared that 'he can by no means be compared to Weyse.'

Weyse wrote 8 piano sonatas; the first 4 were early compositions, likely dating to the early 1790s; the final 4 were published later (the last in 1818), however, the dates of their composition are uncertain. His major keyboard influences were JS Bach, CPE Bach, Haydn, Mozart, & Clementi.  Although consider 'romantic' in his song compositions, his instrumental music looks back to some of the main composers of the classical and pre-classical periods.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-3jFD6hk/0/S/Weyse_PianoSons-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-8Km5Jdp/0/S/Weyse_Symph1_7-S.jpg)  (http://www.hymnary.org/files/hymnary/person/Weyse_CEF.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2013, 04:18:35 PM
Hey, Dave,
I have the disk in the middle of your pictures, the 2 symphonies. Always liked it, despite knowing nothing about Weyse. So you gave me the impetus to look him up. Thanks!  No chamber music that I can see. His piano music could be interesting though.


Weyse, Christoph Ernst Friedrich  (courtesy of Grove's Online Dictionary of Music and Musicians)
(b Altona, nr Hamburg, 5 March 1774; d Copenhagen, 8 Oct 1842). Danish composer. He was sent to Copenhagen in 1789 to study with J.A.P. Schulz, musical director of the Kongelige Teater and remained in the city for the rest of his life. He served as organist firstly at the Reformed Church from 1792, and then from 1805 at Copenhagen Cathedral. In 1816 he was made titular professor at the University of Copenhagen (where he was given an honorary doctorate in 1842) and in 1819 became court composer with the obligation to produce cantatas and operas for the Kongelige Teater. He was known as an excellent pianist, in his youth especially for his performances of Mozart's piano concertos, and he particularly distinguished himself at improvisation, both at the piano and the organ. He was esteemed for his artistic taste in music and other matters, and in his later years he was the leading authority in Copenhagen's musical life. He had an unhappy love affair in 1801 and remained unmarried.

A conservative by nature, Weyse was rooted in 18th-century musical ideals, extending from Bach and Handel to Gluck and Haydn, but not beyond Mozart, and he did not sympathize at all with the new trends in Beethoven's works. He composed seven symphonies (1795–9) that demonstrate Haydn's influence, some of which were partly re-used for overtures and incidental music in his theatrical works. More personal are his piano compositions, also mostly written in his youth. They consist of two volumes of Jugendarbeiten 1790–94 with many Allegri di bravura, a genre (fast movements in sonata form) which he invented and explored with two further collections (1796 and 1809). All these works show a development from the north German pre-classical keyboard style, especially of C.P.E. Bach (with whom he had unsuccessfully sought lessons as a youth), to that of the Viennese Classical tradition of Haydn, Clementi and Mozart. The famous Bohemian pianist and composer Ignaz Moscheles, who visited Copenhagen in 1829, inspired Weyse to return to piano composition and was the dedicatee of the Allegro di bravura op.50. Two sets of Etudes, opp.51 and 60, followed; these brilliant pieces, demanding an advanced technique, are among Weyse's best piano works (praised by Schumann) and contain his only music to embrace the Romantic style of the period.

It is as a vocal composer, however, that Weyse is most remembered. He composed a large number of cantatas and minor works for soloists, chorus and orchestra for major public occasions, consisting of arias, ensembles, recitatives and choruses (many in fugal style and as chorales) written in a solemn, rather old-fashioned style, but very highly regarded in his lifetime.
His theatrical works are made up of six Singspiel-type operas and some incidental music. The charming music of Sovedrikken (The Sleeping-Draught, 1809) – a comedy similar in character to Dittersdorf's Doktor und Apotheker – made it his most performed and only successful opera. Of the following operas Ludlams Hule (Ludlam's Cave, 1816) is a melodramatic ghost story set in Scotland, while the incidental music to Shakespeare's Macbeth (1817) contains interesting music for the witches' choruses and the banquet scene. His later operas, particularly Floribella (1825) and Festen paa Kenilworth (The Feast at Kenilworth, 1836), are conceived on a larger scale with extended forms and more varied harmonies. But on the whole Weyse lacked the dramatic flair of his contemporary Friedrich Kuhlau. In his stage works the finest numbers are the shorter arias and ensembles, many of them lyrical, strophic songs in moderate 6/8 time derived from the siciliana, with a characteristically Danish melodic structure, typical of his attractive romance style.

Weyse also wrote many songs, extending from the early simple songs in the manner of Schulz's Lieder im Volkston, to the mature works, the summit of which are the famous Morgen- og Aftensange (Morning and Evening Songs, 1837 and 1838). These songs were published together with some romances from his stage works in two volumes after his death and soon became the most popular music in Denmark in the 19th century. With his unique feeling for the intimate connection of words and music and his great melodic gift it was certainly as a composer of songs that Weyse stood out, and it is for this that he is remembered in Danish music history.

WORKS

(for fuller lists and thematic catalogue see Berggreen (1876) and Fog (1979)
many MSS in DK-Kk)

printed works published in Copenhagen unless otherwise stated

STAGE
all first performed at Kongelige Teater, Copenhagen
Sovedrikken [The Sleeping-Draught] (Spl, 2, A. Oehlenschläger, after C.F. Bretzner), 21 April 1809, also in B-Br, vs (1815–16)
Faruk (Spl, 3, Oehlenschläger), 30 Jan 1812, ov. and excerpts, vs (1817–28)
Ludlams Hule [Ludlam's Cave] (Spl, 4, Oehlenschläger), 30 Jan 1816, vs (1821–2)
Floribella (lyrical-romantic drama, 3, entr'acte, C.J. Boye), 29 Jan 1825, vs (1837)
Et eventyr i Rosenborg Have [An Adventure in Rosenborg Gardens] (Spl, 1, J.L. Heiberg), 26 May 1827, vs (1833)
Festen paa Kenilworth [The Feast at Kenilworth] (romantic Spl, 3, H.C. Andersen, after W. Scott), 6 Jan 1836, vs (1877)
Incid music: Macbeth (W. Shakespeare), 1817; Balders Død [The Death of Balder] (J. Ewald), 1832

CHORAL
Miserere, double chorus, orch, 1818 (1845)
25 cants. and 10 minor choruses, acc. pf/other insts, incl.: 3 Reformation cants., 1817, 1836, 1839, 3 for Christmas, 1818, 1834, 1836, 2 Passion cants., 1819, 1825, 1 for Whitsunday, 1820, 2 for Easter, 1821, 1829, 1 for New Year, 1822
75 chorales and 25 choruses, a cappella, 3–4vv: for schools, 1838, 1841
Den Ambrosianske lovsang [The Ambrosian Hymn of Praise] (1826)
Several cants. for major public occasions

SONGS
all with piano accompaniment
18 early songs in Jugendarbeiten, 1790–94, some in Vermischte Compositionen (1799)
Dybt Skoven bruser [Forest Murmurs] (F. von Schiller and Oehlenschläger) (1802)
Various songs, 1814–35
9 Sange (1837)
8 Morgensange for børn (B.S. Ingemann) (1837)
7 Aftensange (Ingemann) (1838)
8 Gesänge (1838)
Romancer og sange (1852–60), comprehensive posthumous collection

PIANO
all ed. in Dania Sonans, viii (Copenhagen, 1997)
[6] Allegri di bravura (Berlin, 1796); repr. as Nägeli's Répertoire des clavecinistes, vii (Zürich, 1803)
3 sonatas in Vermischte Compositionen (1799)
[4] Allegri di bravura (Zürich, 1809)
Sonata (1818)
24 écossaises (1823)
Allegro di bravura, a, op.50 (1830)
8 Etudes, op.51 (1832)
4 Etudes, op.60 (1838)
Jugendarbeiten, 1790–94, incl. 4 minor pieces, 5 fugues, fantasia, 4 sonatas, 8 Allegri di bravura

MISC
7 syms., orch, 1795–9; no.6 as op.1 (1799/R); no.7 (Vienna, 1803); ed. in Dania Sonans, ix (Copenhagen, 1998–)
38 canons, before 1817
Choral-Melodier til den evangelisk christelige Psalmebog (1839)
100 gamle Kaempevise Melodier [folksong collection], voice, pf (1840–42)
32 lette orgelpraeludier (1843/R)


He will bear more looking into, it seems.
8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 13, 2013, 05:09:40 PM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the additional information on Weyse - fills in some of my summary gaps, e.g. that 1801 composing stop seemed to me to be either an illness or a woman -  :D

I hope that others will 'chime in' regarding his choral works - would be a consideration for me; AND would like to hear about his 'other' keyboard works and symphonies - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2013, 05:13:38 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 13, 2013, 05:09:40 PM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the additional information on Weyse - fills in some of my summary gaps, e.g. that 1801 composing stop seemed to me to be either an illness or a woman -  :D

I hope that others will 'chime in' regarding his choral works - would be a consideration for me; AND would like to hear about his 'other' keyboard works and symphonies - Dave :)

You're welcome, Dave. I'm curious about that piano disk. Have you listened to it yet? Is it a a Steindörfer or a pianoforte? I'd like to get a pianoforte disk anyway. He appeals to me, at least his symphonies do. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on January 14, 2013, 05:43:05 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 13, 2013, 04:00:52 PM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-3jFD6hk/0/S/Weyse_PianoSons-S.jpg) 

I remember sampling this disk on the Naxos Music Library and liking it a lot. Never heard it in its entirety though.   :(
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2013, 08:10:57 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2013, 05:13:38 PM
You're welcome, Dave. I'm curious about that piano disk. Have you listened to it yet? Is it a a Steindörfer or a pianoforte? I'd like to get a pianoforte disk anyway. He appeals to me, at least his symphonies do. :)

Hi Gurn - the piano used is a modern one, but I cannot find a specific reference to the brand - sorry.  I've listened to the disc several times; piano sonatas 5-7 were published in 1799, and No. 8 in 1818, although likely written before that year.  As expected, the style of these works is rooted in the classic era; the writing is melodic & virtuosic - the pianist, Thomas Trondhjem, and the sound quality are excellent.  Some more information w/ the liner notes are available at the Dacapo website (might need to have the page translated).  Bottom line - I believe that you would like this disc, especially at the BRO price!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2013, 08:36:23 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2013, 08:10:57 AM
Hi Gurn - the piano used is a modern one, but I cannot find a specific reference to the brand - sorry.  I've listened to the disc several times; piano sonatas 5-7 were published in 1799, and No. 8 in 1818, although likely written before that year.  As expected, the style of these works is rooted in the classic era; the writing is melodic & virtuosic - the pianist, Thomas Trondhjem, and the sound quality are excellent.  Some more information w/ the liner notes are available at the Dacapo website (might need to have the page translated).  Bottom line - I believe that you would like this disc, especially at the BRO price!  Dave :)

Excellent, thanks for the feedback. I likely will like it.

8)
PS - "Steindörfer" is just a hybrid brand name for a modern piano. My bad...  >:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on January 14, 2013, 09:52:03 AM
Re: Weyse

I found this on Spotify and am listening to it as I type.

[asin]B003NEQAMM[/asin]

So far, very nice.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2013, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 14, 2013, 09:52:03 AM
Re: Weyse

I found this on Spotify and am listening to it as I type.

[asin]B003NEQAMM[/asin]

So far, very nice.

Cool. Looks like the way to go. Thanks!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2013, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2013, 08:36:23 AM
Excellent, thanks for the feedback. I likely will like it.

8)
PS - "Steindörfer" is just a hybrid brand name for a modern piano. My bad...  >:D

Yep - thought that was just one of your many Gurnian neologisms, i.e. SteinwayBosendorfer -  :D

That 2-CD offering does have quite a mixture - but, I'd be most interested in the 2nd disc w/ the Etudes (which received an excellent review on Fanfare) & the Christmas Cantata; not a big 'song' fan, despite Weyse's reputation in this genre.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2013, 10:39:08 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2013, 10:18:36 AM
Yep - thought that was just one of your many Gurnian neologisms, i.e. SteinwayBosendorfer -  :D

That 2-CD offering does have quite a mixture - but, I'd be most interested in the 2nd disc w/ the Etudes (which received an excellent review on Fanfare) & the Christmas Cantata; not a big 'song' fan, despite Weyse's reputation in this genre.  Dave :)

:D

I've been ruined by Schubert myself. I like a nice Lied on occasion. So that won't hurt my feelings. As long as it isn't warbled too much!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on January 14, 2013, 10:40:07 AM
No Texas warblers need apply
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2013, 03:14:20 AM
The Hobbit's next CD (Volume 19, details at JPC (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Symphonien-Nr-262742/hnum/2920846)) in his ongoing Haydn Symphony cycle will be released next month.

Sarge
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 19, 2013, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 14, 2013, 10:18:36 AM
Yep - thought that was just one of your many Gurnian neologisms, i.e. SteinwayBosendorfer -  :D

That 2-CD offering does have quite a mixture - but, I'd be most interested in the 2nd disc w/ the Etudes (which received an excellent review on Fanfare) & the Christmas Cantata; not a big 'song' fan, despite Weyse's reputation in this genre.  Dave :)

Well, I decided to pick up the Weyse CD of the Etudes w/ Jedlickova; excellent review from Fanfare (attached for those interested); only complaint is the length, just 50 mins. - now I wish that Naxos would try to package those symphonies since I did enjoy the one disc w/ Nos. 1/7.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-8gBTh5S/0/O/Weyse_LatePianoWorks.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2013, 11:30:17 AM
Benda, Franz (1709-1786) - Violin Concertos w/ Ivan Zenaty & Prague PO - a 1740 Giuseppe Guarneri del Gesu violin is used in these recordings - purchased prompted by an excellent review in the Jan-Feb 2013 issue of Fanfare (attached) - the Benda Bros (the other is Georg, Jiri, etc.) have been discussed earlier in this thread (so for those interested, just search on 'Benda') - now finishing listening for the first time to this recording which arrived today in a MDT package - F. Benda was considered one of the best violinist of his time (dates similar to CPE Bach, so in that wonderfully inventive transition era!), and these works certainly require virtuosity - highly recommended.  :)


(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-8cJnWs5/0/O/BendaViolinConcs.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2013, 04:31:46 PM
This afternoon, I left the post quoted below in the 'Listening Thread' commenting on the recording discussed; my first listening was w/ headphones; tonight because of Harry's negative comments, I'm now listening to this recording on my den speakers - sounds MUCH better, i.e. no noticeable extraneous noises (except on one movement) and the playing is up front w/o any reverberant effects - maybe just my 'listening space'?  I also found the email address of Stanley Ritchie @ Indiana University and sent him a message; of course, I'm not sure if that is still an active address and/or whether he will even respond, but if so, I'll report back here!  But if others have heard this recording, comments would be appreciated - this is delightful music by a composer who may have been the instigator of the String Trio? Dave :)

QuoteWranitzky, Paul (1756-1808) - String Trios w/ Ensemble Cordia (Stanley Ritchie on violin - former 20 yr member of the Mozartean Players w/ Steven Lubin on fortepiano) - took a chance w/ this CD (added to help S/H w/ a MDT order) - could not find a review online but the composer, music, and recording venue (Eroica Hall of the Lobkowitz Palace in Vienna - where Beethoven conducted his Symphony No. 3, thus the name) was of interest - BUT, should have looked in our forum because Harry posted on this disc at the end of last year (see below) - I'd have to agree that there is a reverberant sound and also occasional extraneous noises (next room, outside, etc.?) - my first listen today was w/ headphones so will give the CD a try tomorrow on my regular speakers.  The music is certainly pleasant, the musicians excellent, and Wranitzky wrote 30+ string trios (kind of started the genre) - of great interest except?  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-dHQCHw4/0/O/Wranitzky_StTrios.jpg)

Quote from: Harry on December 12, 2012, 03:37:30 AM
2012 acquirement. First listen
Paul Wranitzky learned the trade from Haydn, and developed the same easiness of compositional skills as Haydn had especially in his Chamber works. One should see him as a exponent of his time who simply wrote fine and entertaining music. Its serves good as background music, one can easily follow the writing and is not let astray by some difficult passages. I like the easy flow of his compositions, but it should be taken in short doses, its in that sense ideal music before going to sleep. No pun intended. Ensemble Cordia plays on very old Authentic instruments, with Stanley Ritchie on first Violin, a well know veteran in the old music world. The ensemble is led by Stefano Marcocchi, on the Viiola. They take the tempi at a leisurely pace, no hurrying at all, carefully considering all the finer details of Wranitsky's writing. World première recordings, recorded, unfortunately in the Historic Eroica Saal of the Lobkowitz Palace, which has a unacceptable long resonance, more then 5 seconds, which will distort already at ff. The echo should have been avoided, but alas it is not. So that rules it out for my recommendation for technical reasons. The music however is what you expect from this composer.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2013, 04:59:52 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2013, 04:31:46 PM
... this is delightful music by a composer who may have been the instigator of the String Trio? Dave :)

Vranický, Pavel (1756 - 1808) (Another Bohemian! Gotta love 'em!)

Damn, sorry to hear about the SQ issues, Dave. I'm rather keen on Wranitzky. I was curious what you mean in that last sentence? His dates rather preclude him from that title, I would think. Unless you mean something else?   :)  Wrote a lot of String quartets (56) and quintets (didn't count, but many) though. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2013, 05:14:15 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2013, 04:59:52 PM
Vranický, Pavel (1756 - 1808) (Another Bohemian! Gotta love 'em!)

Damn, sorry to hear about the SQ issues, Dave. I'm rather keen on Wranitzky. I was curious what you mean in that last sentence? His dates rather preclude him from that title, I would think. Unless you mean something else?   :)  Wrote a lot of String quartets (56) and quintets (didn't count, but many) though. :)

Hi Gurn - I'm not giving up on this recording yet, esp. w/ Ritchie on the violin - will do another listening on my regular speakers.  BUT, I think that you misread my last sentence, i.e. the reference was to the String Trio and not the SQ - paraphrasing from the liner notes, "PW wrote over 30 string trios, Haydn was not interested, Mozart wrote only one trio, and Beethoven wrote more but after PW's compositions" - SO, who was the 'father' of the String Trio?  BTW - my other complaint about this recording is that the timing is just over 50 minutes, they could have easily added another in view of the number P. Wranitzky wrote?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2013, 06:30:55 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2013, 05:14:15 PM
Hi Gurn - I'm not giving up on this recording yet, esp. w/ Ritchie on the violin - will do another listening on my regular speakers.  BUT, I think that you misread my last sentence, i.e. the reference was to the String Trio and not the SQ - paraphrasing from the liner notes, "PW wrote over 30 string trios, Haydn was not interested, Mozart wrote only one trio, and Beethoven wrote more but after PW's compositions" - SO, who was the 'father' of the String Trio?  BTW - my other complaint about this recording is that the timing is just over 50 minutes, they could have easily added another in view of the number P. Wranitzky wrote?  Dave :)

Well, Haydn wrote ~26 string trios beginning about in the year that Wranitzky was born and for the next 10 years. It is convincingly argued that he stopped writing them at the time that he started writing baryton trios en masse for the Prince. Mozart wrote 2 of them, the first in Bb (K 266) in Salzburg in 1777 and the 2nd in Eb (K 563) in Vienna in 1788. PW wrote his first ones in 1781. They were for 2 violins and cello, like all but 1 of Haydn's. The rest of them were for violin, viola and cello.

Boccherini wrote 48 that have survived. Of these, the first set of 6 (Op 1) is from 1760 and for 2 violins & cello (like Haydn's). But by 1772 he wrote a set for violin, viola & cello, then Op 34 in 1781 and Op 47 in 1793.

Not that I'm being argumentative, I am simply curious where they got that idea. I was hoping it was the violin, viola & cello form, but he didn't start with that til the mid-1780's...   :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2013, 06:58:44 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2013, 06:30:55 PM
Well, Haydn wrote ~26 string trios beginning about in the year that Wranitzky was born and for the next 10 years....

Boccherini wrote 48 that have survived..........
Not that I'm being argumentative, I am simply curious where they got that idea. I was hoping it was the violin, viola & cello form, but he didn't start with that til the mid-1780's...   :-)

Well, I'm not trying to be 'argumentative' in the least, just trying to understand the origin of the String Trio in whatever form; appears that Haydn & Boccherini would be the major candidates for this 'father role' in the genre under discussion? NOW, I probably already own much of Joe's & Luigi's works (late tonight will check my collection in the morning) mentioned, not sure @ the moment.  All that I can say is that David Wyn Jones wrote the liner notes that I quoted in 2012; the emphasis was indeed on the combination of Violin, Viola, & Cello, and the comments he made about Haydn & Mozart are what I already quoted.

So, this is about all that I can offer from these notes; Wranitsky was the same age as Mozart & a pupil of Haydn, so obviously knew Papa Joe's compositions - perhaps he wanted to contrive a different combination of 3 instruments?  Don't know and at the moment cannot add much to clarify the issue - sorry -  :-\

Thanks for your valuable input - regards,  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 01, 2013, 09:02:50 AM
Well, this morning, I've been trying to better understand the development of the String Trio, especially the issue of using 2 violins vs. violin & viola w/ a cello.  Boccherini composed nearly 70 of these works for 2 violins & cello according to the listings in his catalog HERE (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/boclchb3.html); I happen to have 3 discs of these works shown below which comprise a total of 10 string trios, so many missing - there are some additional recordings on Amazon.

An already mentioned by Gurn, Haydn wrote 21 string trios, again for violins & cello, which are in Hoboken's Category V; in checking my own Papa Joe collection, I have none of these early works (from the 1760s) - the closest 'early divertimenti' that I have is the 5-disc set w/ Huss (also shown below); these are virtually all Hob. II works (except for a few marches).  In checking Amazon for Haydn 'String Trios', there are 2 recordings by Camerata Berolnensis & 3 CDs w/ the Wiener Philharmonia Trio - Gurn likely has a number of these offerings, and hopefully can share his thoughts (believe these may have come up before somewhere in the forum?).

Concerning the history of the String Trio, there is a short Wiki article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_trio) suggesting that Haydn was the first composer of this trio genre using 2 violins followed by Boccherini; once the viola replaced one of the violins (assume Paul Wranitzky was at least one of the earliest proponents of this combination), the trend really caught on into the next century, as seen by the linked listing of composers, many of their 'string trios' are in my collection.  NOW, I'm at least a little clearer on this subject - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-jRtjSBC/0/S/Boccherini_TrioMiro-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-NtZqGbx/0/S/Boccherini_LosUltimos-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-2rDwzDL/0/S/Haydn_Huss-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on February 01, 2013, 09:14:25 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 01, 2013, 09:02:50 AM
Well, this morning, I've been trying to better understand the development of the String Trio, especially the issue of using 2 violins vs. violin & viola w/ a cello.  Boccherini composed nearly 70 of these works for 2 violins & cello according to the listings in his catalog HERE (http://www.uquebec.ca/musique/catal/boccherini/boclchb3.html); I happen to have 3 discs of these works shown below which comprise a total of 10 string trios, so many missing - there are some additional recordings on Amazon.

An already mentioned by Gurn, Haydn wrote 21 string trios, again for violins & cello, which are in Hoboken's Category V; in checking my own Papa Joe collection, I have none of these early works (from the 1760s) - the closest 'early divertimenti' that I have is the 5-disc set w/ Huss (also shown below); these are virtually all Hob. II works (except for a few marches).  In checking Amazon for Haydn 'String Trios', there are 2 recordings by Camerata Berolnensis & 3 CDs w/ the Wiener Philharmonia Trio - Gurn likely has a number of these offerings, and hopefully can share his thoughts (believe these may have come up before somewhere in the forum?).

Concerning the history of the String Trio, there is a short Wiki article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_trio) suggesting that Haydn was the first composer of this trio genre using 2 violins followed by Boccherini; once the viola replaced one of the violins (assume Paul Wranitzky was at least one of the earliest proponents of this combination), the trend really caught on into the next century, as seen by the linked listing of composers, many of their 'string trios' are in my collection.  NOW, I'm at least a little clearer on this subject - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-jRtjSBC/0/S/Boccherini_TrioMiro-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-NtZqGbx/0/S/Boccherini_LosUltimos-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-2rDwzDL/0/S/Haydn_Huss-S.jpg)

Most interesting Dave.  I have neglected this kind of work, and I need to rectify that omission on my part since I think the string trio surely one I would, and do, enjoy.  However, the String Trio I am most familiar with is not of this period, but Schoenberg's.  I am probably more inclined to prefer the violin, viola, cello incarnation of the form rather than the two violin ensemble.

Thanks for the post!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on February 01, 2013, 09:22:44 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on February 01, 2013, 09:14:25 AM
. . .  I am probably more inclined to prefer the violin, viola, cello incarnation of the form rather than the two violin ensemble.

Likewise . . . apt to favor the broader range.

Mind you, writing for a 2-vn/va trio would be a toothsome challenge.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on February 01, 2013, 09:28:26 AM
Found this on Spotify

[asin]B000068R1A[/asin]

String Trios by Johann Georg Albrechtsberger and Johannes Sperger (new composer to me) - I think these are for violin, viola and cello.

Also found were several recordings each of the Boccherini and Beethoven trios, and one of the Wranitzky.  But 20th century composers were also fond of this ensemble.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 01, 2013, 09:58:52 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on February 01, 2013, 09:28:26 AM
Found this on Spotify

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gg49CLV/0/S/Albrechtsberger_Trio-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-KT3Wv4f/0/S/giardini-S.jpg)

String Trios by Johann Georg Albrechtsberger and Johannes Sperger (new composer to me) - I think these are for violin, viola and cello.

Also found were several recordings each of the Boccherini and Beethoven trios, and one of the Wranitzky.  But 20th century composers were also fond of this ensemble.

Well, I have that Albrechtsberger (1736-1809) disc; the liner notes states that he wrote 28 trios (does not clarify whether these were all 'string trios'), but he was 20 yrs older that Wranitzky and may have certainly composed these earlier (dates are not given in the liner notes for the works (Op. 9, N.1-3).  SO - the plot thickens - how many others were putting the viola in the mix around that time. 

Another 'candidate' is Felice Giardini (1716-1796), an Italian who ended up residing in London & was friends w/ JC Bach.  The recording that I inserted above is a 3-CD set of String Trios w/ a viola used; now, Giardini was a violinist and the notes are not clear as to whether these were written originally for 2 violins nor are the dates of composition given (Op.17,Nos.1-6; Op.20,Nos.1-6,Op.26,Nos.1-6) - some of these had to be written before either of the younger two above?  BTW - if you shop @ BRO (Berkshire Record Outlet), that 3-disc set is still available for $21 (bought mine a number of years ago); also, a 10/10 review by Hurwitz HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=39975).  Dave

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on February 03, 2013, 06:34:23 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on February 01, 2013, 09:28:26 AM
Found this on Spotify

[asin]B000068R1A[/asin]

String Trios by Johann Georg Albrechtsberger and Johannes Sperger (new composer to me) - I think these are for violin, viola and cello.

Also found were several recordings each of the Boccherini and Beethoven trios, and one of the Wranitzky.  But 20th century composers were also fond of this ensemble.

That is one wonderful disk. I wish there was more Albrechtsberger around. I love his string quartets as played by the Authentic Quartet.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 04, 2013, 02:18:18 PM
Well, concerning the post @ the bottom concerning the Wranitzky String Trios, I received a reply from Mr. Richie (quoted immediately below) - just FYI for those who may be considering purchasing this recording.  Dave :)

QuoteThank you for your message: I'm pleased that our Mozart trios are among your favourites, and I hope that the Wranitzky gives you pleasure.

As you'll have noted, the room we recorded the Wranitzky in is in the Lobkowitz Palace in Vienna, the very room in which the composer was concertmaster for the premiere performances of Beethoven's 3rd and 4th Symphonies. These were somewhat magical surroundings, as you may imagine! The room is a typical 18th-century salon - large and extremely ornate, with a high, vaulted ceiling, parquet floors and a lot of irregular reflecting surfaces which served to create a warm, luminous, yet clear tone quality. We played in the centre of the room, and I don't recall there being any particular difficulty with the acoustics. I'm quite happy with the recorded sound.

With best wishes,

Stanley Ritchie

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 31, 2013, 04:31:46 PM
This afternoon, I left the post quoted below in the 'Listening Thread' commenting on the recording discussed; my first listening was w/ headphones; tonight because of Harry's negative comments, I'm now listening to this recording on my den speakers - sounds MUCH better, i.e. no noticeable extraneous noises (except on one movement) and the playing is up front w/o any reverberant effects - maybe just my 'listening space'?  I also found the email address of Stanley Ritchie @ Indiana University and sent him a message; of course, I'm not sure if that is still an active address and/or whether he will even respond, but if so, I'll report back here!  But if others have heard this recording, comments would be appreciated - this is delightful music by a composer who may have been the instigator of the String Trio? Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on April 16, 2013, 05:56:11 PM
I thought this is the right place to post this link:

http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/video/Les_Salons_de_Musique_Chiaroscuro_Quartet_Jerome_Pernoo/6779/Mozart___Allegro_Moderetto__Quatuor_a_cordes_opus_15_en_re_mineur_KV_421/

Very, very interesting interpretations of the Chiaroscuro String Quartet, specially their "dark" (oscuro) and painful Mozart. Nice single movement of Haydn too, although it could have been better. IMO the only problem of this ensemble is the little Alina, who's too strong, too intense as violinist, demanding a lot of attention... but I can live with that. :)

Not to mention this Arte Live Web TV, a discovery itself.  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on April 25, 2013, 07:39:28 AM
I posted this in the Listening thread but thought a new period instrument string quartet (new to me , that is) was worth mentioning over here:

Quote from: sanantonio on April 25, 2013, 07:34:53 AM
Vanhal | Late String Quartets
Camesina Quartet

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/MMB-CD419.gif)

These works are perfect for someone who enjoys Haydn and Mozart string quartets and might be looking to expand beyond those well known works.  The Camesina Quartet is new to me, but a period instrument group (always gets my attention) who has also recorded quartets  by Dussek.

:)

Has anyone else heard of this quartet?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2013, 08:24:51 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on April 25, 2013, 07:39:28 AM
I posted this in the Listening thread but thought a new period instrument string quartet (new to me , that is) was worth mentioning over here:

Has anyone else heard of this quartet?

Yes, I have them playing Dussek's quartets on a different label. I think they're first-rate, actually. I have this disk wishlisted at Amazon, hope to have it in hand soon! 

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on April 29, 2013, 09:37:58 AM
New release: HIP classical-era quartets!!

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/777770-2.jpg)

Surprisingly adventurous, very well built, with great seriousness of purpose and memorable ideas. Gyrowetz was especially good with openings; each of these so far has begun with a deft and attention-grabbing gesture of some kind. Haydnesque but not so witty.

EDIT: Whoa, really startling dissonances in the trio of the last quartet here!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2013, 10:07:30 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 29, 2013, 09:37:58 AM
New release: HIP classical-era quartets!!

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/777770-2.jpg)

Surprisingly adventurous, very well built, with great seriousness of purpose and memorable ideas. Gyrowetz was especially good with openings; each of these so far has begun with a deft and attention-grabbing gesture of some kind. Haydnesque but not so witty.

EDIT: Whoa, really startling dissonances in the trio of the last quartet here!

I got these way back when they came out in 2000:

[asin]B000050X9Q[/asin]

They are the Op 44 quartets, so a bit later than on your new one here (Op 13 & 29). I always liked that disk a lot, sort of forgot all about it til now. I'll get your new one and pull out the old one too and have a quartet party. :)  Thanks, B.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2013, 11:59:13 AM
Gyrowetz, Adalbert - just have 3 discs of his music, i.e. the SQs (same one as Gurn's CD), Piano Trios, Flute Quartets - will likely add Brian's recommendation, AND also wondering about the disc below - like that series - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xIvR1xLJL._SY300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
Sampling a piano trio disc of Gyrowetz; most agreeable.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on April 29, 2013, 12:18:08 PM
Gurn, I'll try to find that Hyperion album, but it might be available only through MP3 download on their website. Based on what I heard from Op 29/1, this is a composer with interesting things to say (hope there are more dissonant "spikes" elsewhere in his work). I'll see what else is on NML, too. If the Symphonies disc is there, I'll report back for Dave. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on April 29, 2013, 12:23:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
Sampling a piano trio disc of Gyrowetz; most agreeable.

That was one I listened to as well, and found it very nice.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on April 29, 2013, 03:32:00 PM
Checking back in to say that I tried the Bamert disc of Gyrowetz symphonies - or rather, tried the shortest of the three symphonies it contains. The movements were almost in reverse order of interest: the first is deadly dull, formulaic, very much disappointing; the second perked my ears up a bit, rather livelier than your usual slow movement, and the symphony reaches its modest peak with a French-horn-heavy trio to the minuet. Second time in a row that the trio has been my favorite part of his piece!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 29, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
Sampling a piano trio disc of Gyrowetz; most agreeable.

Quote from: sanantonio on April 29, 2013, 12:23:46 PM
That was one I listened to as well, and found it very nice.

Hi Karl & SanAntone - assume that you're listening to the recording below, i.e. the one in my 'small' collection of his works.  Dave :)

P.S. if not, then let me know the performers - might be another one to consider?

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-D6nw2fN/0/O/Gyrowetz_PianoTrios.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on April 29, 2013, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
Hi Karl & SanAntone - assume that you're listening to the recording below, i.e. the one in my 'small' collection of his works.  Dave :)

P.S. if not, then let me know the performers - might be another one to consider?

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-D6nw2fN/0/O/Gyrowetz_PianoTrios.jpg)

That was the one I listened to.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2013, 03:23:38 AM
Likewise.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2013, 05:49:32 AM
Quote from: Annie on August 17, 2013, 04:57:36 AM
Gurn, could you be a doll and tell me if I can squeeze some post-classical, pre-romantic composers' recordings such as Hummel and Weber into your "personal" classical period thread? I love Hummel's works

Both of those are classical composers, you might consider them part of a transition between classicism and romanticism, but they are classical composers and are fair game for this thread.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 17, 2013, 05:53:48 AM
Quote from: Annie on August 17, 2013, 04:57:36 AM
Gurn, could you be a doll and tell me if I can squeeze some post-classical, pre-romantic composers' recordings such as Hummel and Weber into your "personal" classical period thread? I love Hummel's works

The Corner shall maintain its Sanctity at all costs.

J/K ;)

We have a thread for transition period composers here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,284.0.html). At first glance it appears to be a precursor to the Corner, but if Sonic Dave doesn't mind, we could probably rejuvenate and renovate that thread a little. ;) (Although something in the back of my mind tells me that there was another thread on the same topic, but I'm unable to locate it at the moment.) Hummel has his own place (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,721.0.html) as well.

If you're looking for some other composer, you can refer the Composer Index (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19229.0.html). :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2013, 05:58:02 AM
Quote from: Annie on August 17, 2013, 04:57:36 AM
Gurn, could you be a doll and tell me if I can squeeze some post-classical, pre-romantic composers' recordings such as Hummel and Weber into your "personal" classical period thread? I love Hummel's works

My personal idea was to make an easy rule of thumb, which is that it would include people whose main body of work took place up to the time of Schubert's death. So Spohr also falls in there. Probably a few Frenchies like Grétry and certainly Mèhul. A host of others too. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2013, 05:59:44 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 17, 2013, 05:53:48 AM
The Corner shall maintain its Sanctity at all costs.

J/K ;)

We have a thread for transition period composers here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,284.0.html). At first glance it appears to be a precursor to the Corner, but if Sonic Dave doesn't mind, we could probably rejuvenate and renovate that thread a little. ;) (Although something in the back of my mind tells me that there was another thread on the same topic, but I'm unable to locate it at the moment.) Hummel has his own place (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,721.0.html) as well.

If you're looking for some other composer, you can refer the Composer Index (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19229.0.html). :)

But if we are inclusive rather than exclusive, maybe someone can explain to us why music went to hell after Beethoven died....    >:D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2013, 06:05:38 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2013, 05:58:02 AM
My personal idea was to make an easy rule of thumb, which is that it would include people whose main body of work took place up to the time of Schubert's death. So Spohr also falls in there. Probably a few Frenchies like Grétry and certainly Mèhul. A host of others too. :)

8)

I'm pretty sure that I've posted about Hummel, Spohr and Clementi on this thread anyway. :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 17, 2013, 06:06:00 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2013, 05:59:44 AM
But if we are inclusive rather than exclusive, maybe someone can explain to us why music went to hell after Beethoven Schubert died....    >:D

8)

Who cares? Let bygones be bygones and enjoy the little that we have left. 0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Opus106 on August 17, 2013, 06:15:35 AM
Quote from: Annie on August 17, 2013, 06:11:52 AM
Forget it! I asked in the name of courtesy but it's obviously too complex and ungodly. I can't even imagine arguing about them...

Oops! :-[ I apologise if I made it appear so -- that was not my intention.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2013, 06:25:38 AM
Navneeth the gate keeper.  YOU! SHALL! NOT! PASS!!!!!! $:)

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 17, 2013, 06:29:35 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 17, 2013, 05:53:48 AM
We have a thread for transition period composers here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,284.0.html). At first glance it appears to be a precursor to the Corner, but if Sonic Dave doesn't mind, we could probably rejuvenate and renovate that thread a little. ;) (Although something in the back of my mind tells me that there was another thread on the same topic, but I'm unable to locate it at the moment.) Hummel has his own place (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,721.0.html) as well.

If you're looking for some other composer, you can refer the Composer Index (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19229.0.html). :)

Hi Navneeth - boy, that thread on the 'transitional composers' is dated w/ the last post being over 4 yrs ago, not sure w/ Gurn's thread that there is much to be revived, BUT I did check about a half dozen links to the old forum which worked; SO for those interested in a LOT of good information of many of these composers, take a look and hit the links of those who may interest you.  Now concerning your Hummel link, I now have over a dozen discs of his music - will take a look @ that thread to see if I can add much.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 17, 2013, 06:35:30 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2013, 05:58:02 AM
My personal idea was to make an easy rule of thumb, which is that it would include people whose main body of work took place up to the time of Schubert's death.

That would include Hummel then, since 113 of 127 works (with opus numbers) were published in 1828 or earlier.

Sarge
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2013, 06:41:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 17, 2013, 06:35:30 AM
That would include Hummel then, since 113 of 127 works (with opus numbers) were published in 1828 or earlier.

Sarge

Certainly. Hummel lived in Mozart's house for 2 years while he took lessons. He actually played at one of Haydn's first concerts in London. He also became Kappelmeister at Eisenstadt after Haydn retired. I would say he was intricately bound up with the Classical style, despite the fact that the compositions of his second phase were far more based on Romantic ideals than classical ones. Talking about potpourris and the like. Can you imagine Mozart writing something called a potpourri?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 17, 2013, 07:28:41 AM
Quote from: Annie on August 17, 2013, 04:57:36 AM
Gurn, could you be a doll and tell me if I can squeeze some post-classical, pre-romantic composers' recordings such as Hummel and Weber into your "personal" classical period thread? I love Hummel's works

Hi Annie - just brought the Hummel thread (linked by Opus106) to the top - listed my current Hummel discs and looking for a few more - please add your suggestions there if so inclined - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 23, 2013, 01:24:12 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2013, 06:41:50 AM
Certainly. Hummel lived in Mozart's house for 2 years while he took lessons. He actually played at one of Haydn's first concerts in London. He also became Kappelmeister at Eisenstadt after Haydn retired. I would say he was intricately bound up with the Classical style, despite the fact that the compositions of his second phase were far more based on Romantic ideals than classical ones. Talking about potpourris and the like. Can you imagine Mozart writing something called a potpourri?  :)

8)

FWIW, Wikipedia lists only 2 potpourris (http://potpourris) (opp. 53 & 94) in a list of 127 items. He wasn't quite a potpourrier, one can infer...   ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 23, 2013, 01:36:46 AM
Quote from: Annie on August 23, 2013, 01:29:32 AM
Potpourri for Guitar & Piano Op.53
Potpourri No 1 La Peau d'ane Op.58
Potpourri No 2 La Peau d'ane Op.59
Potpourri for Viola & Orchestra Op.94

Okay, two more. 4 out of 127 is still far from a habit...  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on August 23, 2013, 09:06:10 AM
Quote from: Annie on August 23, 2013, 02:31:28 AM
The others that come to my mind are:
47 Potpourri in C for piano solo (including motives from Der Freischutz)
79 Potpourri National for guitar & piano(composed jointly with Mauro Giuliani)
95 Potpourri for cello
but it's still in small numbers, right?

Yes, small. What I mean is that those damned potpourris are in no way his most representative works, nor a trend in his late period, nor did he compose them by the scores.

Gurn asked: can someone imagine Mozart composing potpourris? If by potpourri it is meant some sort of a musical trifle then Mozart has tons of them and is far ahead Hummel in this respect.  ;D

Quote
...and if you are talking about Johann Nepomuk Hummel, I don't know what that 127 is but the last time I've counted his output was over 320, not including 70+ arrangements(including Beethoven's first 7 symphonies, many Mozart symphonies and piano concertos) and 10+ doubtful works...

http://web.archive.org/web/20080530163015/http://www.geocities.com/mbfleur/Works_Catalog_of_Hummel.pdf (http://web.archive.org/web/20080530163015/http://www.geocities.com/mbfleur/Works_Catalog_of_Hummel.pdf)

Apparently his opus-numbered works amount to 127.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 08, 2013, 03:42:53 PM
BOY - no activity since August - now there have been some posts in the 'Listening Thread' regarding recordings by the composer described briefly below - thought that a little more discussion would be appropriate here (may have done this before - did not search):

Wolfl, Joseph (1773-1812) - born in Salzburg and studied w/ Leopold Mozart & Michael Haydn.  He was tall (over 6') and had an enormous finger span - moved to Vienna in 1790 and competed and was bested by Beethoven on the keyboard; moved to Paris and then London, where he died at an early age.  His thematic catalog by musicologist Margit Haider-Dechant (in German, 2011) - a total of 618 works were identified and classified, including 7 Symphonies, 22 String Quartets, 10 Piano Concertos, 29 Piano Trios, 32 Violin Sonatas, 16 Flute Sonatas, and well over 200 Solo Piano works (sources from Wiki & HERE (http://www.ijwg.org/index-Dateien/Werke_Woelfl.htm)).

Today, there were posts in the 'Listening Thread' on Symphonies (Sarge) & String Quartets (San Antone) - obviously, there are potentially numerous recording possibilities for this prolific composer w/ the summary of his catalog outlined briefly above.  For myself, I own 5 discs shown below - Piano Concertos just 3 of 10; String Quartets are Op. 4 (No. 1-3); Piano Sonatas just beginning!; and the CDs w/ Laure Colladant are on fortepiano - I have 2 discs, i.e. Vols. 2 & 3 (the latter are Duos w/ keyboard & harp).

BUT, I'm interested in obtaining some more - SO, what do you own, comments, & recommendations?  Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-m2RNHsZ/0/S/Wolfl_PC_156-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-QBNndjk/0/S/Wolfl_SQs-S.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-C93DgGK/0/S/Wolfl_PianoSonatas-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-4LJDqrd/0/S/Wolfl_PianoSonV3-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on October 30, 2013, 03:16:23 AM
I often look at my CPE collection and think, "I have too much of this guy." Certainly, I thought, two albums of violin/continuo music is enough (Cummings/Butterfield, Beyer/Stern). But, something (namely a glowing review at musicweb) made me buy this and I'm not sorry. I'm on a bit of a tangent piano kick lately (having got Schoonderwoerd's wonderful new complete Mozart sonata set). This music is really wonderful on the tangent and these are interesting and enjoyable performances. I think I have too much CPE until I put him on and then I think I need more. 
[asin]B00C0YN2Z4[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on November 07, 2013, 05:39:52 PM
Quote from: milk on October 30, 2013, 03:16:23 AM
I often look at my CPE collection and think, "I have too much of this guy." Certainly, I thought, two albums of violin/continuo music is enough (Cummings/Butterfield, Beyer/Stern). But, something (namely a glowing review at musicweb) made me buy this and I'm not sorry. I'm on a bit of a tangent piano kick lately (having got Schoonderwoerd's wonderful new complete Mozart sonata set). This music is really wonderful on the tangent and these are interesting and enjoyable performances. I think I have too much CPE until I put him on and then I think I need more. 

Boy the CPE Bach revival in recent years has been great, and I don't tired of it. I'm listening to this one this week:

[asin]B00AP5M4JA[/asin]

Two quick symphonies, 11 minutes each, an oboe concerto and a harpsichord concerto. The oboe concerto's got a wonderful expressive minor-key slow movement, 9 minutes long. The E minor symphony strikes like a lightning bolt and the first two movements seem by harmonic illusion to run continuously. I feel the way you do about CPE, milk: more and more CDs keep coming in, but they all keep being so darn good.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on November 08, 2013, 02:31:50 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 07, 2013, 05:39:52 PM
Boy the CPE Bach revival in recent years has been great, and I don't tired of it. I'm listening to this one this week:


Two quick symphonies, 11 minutes each, an oboe concerto and a harpsichord concerto. The oboe concerto's got a wonderful expressive minor-key slow movement, 9 minutes long. The E minor symphony strikes like a lightning bolt and the first two movements seem by harmonic illusion to run continuously. I feel the way you do about CPE, milk: more and more CDs keep coming in, but they all keep being so darn good.
I thought I'd read somewhere that the Spanyi concerto cycle is coming to an end with one more release but I've been wrong about these things in the past so I hesitate to declare it. It's interesting to compare the last two Spanyi releases with the award winning Staier/Freiburger release containing the same material (six concertos). They are so very different. Spanyi/Armonico is rather grand whereas Freiburger is typically angular and spry. I think Staier/Freiburger come out the winner but the last Spanyi also contains a wonderful performance (well, the only one I know) of H477 - with a fortepiano. Anyway, the Spanyi series is generally awesome! Another recording I like is the Ghielmi brothers doing the Gamba sonatas. I must admit I got a bit lost with the keyboard solo series: now there I genuinely wonder if I really need it all. With the concertos, I can't get enough and the three violin sonata recordings I have are all worth having.     
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on November 09, 2013, 08:25:32 PM
(http://www.grooves-inc.com/images/cover/486/194/f7sh5wer.j31)
Now I'm going to contradict myself. This one is calling me...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2013, 05:43:04 AM
Quote from: milk on November 09, 2013, 08:25:32 PM
(http://www.grooves-inc.com/images/cover/486/194/f7sh5wer.j31)
Now I'm going to contradict myself. This one is calling me...

Me too... what a nice looking collection. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 10, 2013, 07:19:16 PM
Quote from: milk on November 09, 2013, 08:25:32 PM
(http://www.grooves-inc.com/images/cover/486/194/f7sh5wer.j31)
Now I'm going to contradict myself. This one is calling me...

Agree w/ Gurn - this looks quite interesting - don't see the collection on Amazon USA yet, but about $15 @ MDT - need to check my collection of CPE to see what I own, but fortepiano & clavichord excites me - looking forward to some comments & reviews - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on November 16, 2013, 07:01:24 PM
Quote from: milk on November 09, 2013, 08:25:32 PM
(http://www.grooves-inc.com/images/cover/486/194/f7sh5wer.j31)
Now I'm going to contradict myself. This one is calling me...

Maybe this set will call for a careful commercial evaluation because of this new box set (firstly mentioned by Que):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81wVHh5P7xL._SL1417_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81a6Zqs-QLL._SL1221_.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: Gordo on November 16, 2013, 07:01:24 PM
Maybe this set will call for a careful commercial evaluation because of this new box set (firstly mentioned by Que):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81wVHh5P7xL._SL1417_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81a6Zqs-QLL._SL1221_.jpg)

:)

Hmmmm....  :)

(Oops, didn't mean to escape from the One Word Post thread). ::)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 17, 2013, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 10, 2013, 07:19:16 PM
Agree w/ Gurn - this looks quite interesting - don't see the collection on Amazon USA yet, but about $15 @ MDT - need to check my collection of CPE to see what I own, but fortepiano & clavichord excites me - looking forward to some comments & reviews - Dave :)

Well posted the above a week ago and now have ordered the 5-disc box below from 'across the pond' - about ready to be released and looking forward to the recordings - Dave :)

(http://www.grooves-inc.com/images/cover/486/194/f7sh5wer.j31)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Felix on November 22, 2013, 09:56:20 AM
I couldn't have a favourite period of music because they are all favourites in turn. But form a certain historical point of view i consider it rather than a favourite as the greatest period in our tradition, even if Big Bach looms in the background.  But the Classical intention was to lighten the texture to make it more graceful - until you get to Beethoven's advanced works.

But I think the greats were born in the right lace at the right time under the influence of the Enlightenment. There was a balance between the general and the particular, which the classicist gained and the Romanticits began to lose. I can't express myself well, but it was a high point of emancipation. In the giant Beethoven it was undoubtedly associated with middle class revolution. When Napoleon declared himself Emperor, Beethoven tore up his dedication to that man. He kept up the heroic style in the symphonies but went in a quite different direction which hardly ended with that transparent lightness a grace of earlier.

Homophobic yes especially in the earlier stage, but the three greats also had a considerable command of polyphony. I can go into examples if necessary. Beethoven is undoubtedly the Giant of Classicism, but there are people like Hermann Hesse, who put him on a lower rung because of his aggressiveness. Charles Rosen, says in his book that he has friends who won't have anything to do with Beethoven for this reason. Needless to say I degree with them. Maybe I have pushed away from the somewhat cosy conception of Classicism suggested above.

I have noticed that Schubert has been excluded from the Classical genre. I think he had one foot in both camps classical and romantic music. But I think he still participates in that disturbing balance of Classicism. If I were to put Beethoven on the highest mountain peak, there would be a slighter smaller peak for Schubert way above the Romantics, whom I particularly admire.

What do you think?

Yours,
Felix

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on December 31, 2013, 03:16:18 AM
I have some good and some bad news on the Edelmann sonatas set I recently acquired:

[asin]B007R36K66[/asin]

The most important good news is that the music is quite a find, of quality that well deserving of our attention - inventive and original. German-Austrian orientated in style, with a bit of French flair added. And perfect for anyone interested in the Classical era. More good news: the quality of the playing by the late Sylvie Pécot-Douatte (http://www.sylvie-pecot.fr) does the music justice: rhythmically astute, playful and inspired. And the final good news is that the set can be had at bargain price. It has been reissued by Pahia, that have acquired the rights of these recordings by French Calliope after its demise inflicted by the free choice of its owner who was under the impression that the Classical Music business was doomed.... (I hope he found some professional help after single handedly killing off one of France's finest Classical labels...)

Which brings us to the down sides  :(..... amply singled out in this review by Johan van Veen (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Feb13/Edelmann_21_sonatas_PHU012-14.htm). On the performance there is the issue of the instrument choice. Van Veen wonders why fortepianos have been chosen for op. 5-10 if all these sonatas would probably have been written for harpsichord? Although I like the 1st disc on the harpsichord and love to hear an all-harpsichord performance, I really don't mind. Most of the keyboard works from this period sound good on both instruments, as is the case here. Van Veen has a more serious point with his objection of the use of a late, non-period Érard for the last disc. But in the end, that doesn't detract me from the enjoyment of these sonatas either. The issue of the split sonata in the 1st disc that Van Veen mentions must have been corrected later, because on my copy things go in the right order. Opus 1, nr. 3 is however still erroneously labeled in the booklet ... though not on the back cover.

No major mishaps so far IMO. The real drawback is the "noises" that can be heard on the 3rd disc. Very distracting and a bit of a spoiler. The my ears it sounded like overtones from the instrument caused by inappropriate resonance due to malfunction. But since Van Veen claims this could not be heard on the original issue, there must be a technical error. Or maybe we are both right and these noises were edited out in the original issues but were present on the master tapes and so reappeared with the reissue?

Anyway. Considering the enjoyment I get out of these recording, I might dish out extra cash for the original issue on Calliope of at least the third disc.
Or you can always take the good with the bad at bargain price. :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2013, 04:19:50 AM
Interesting review, thanks, Que.

You are right in many ways about instrument choice. I have personally discovered that being a purist in this regard eliminates a lot of good music and performances of it from your listening agenda, and for no good purpose. As a simple matter of logic, despite the fact that in that time, people wanted a constant supply of new music, it doesn't mean that if something was a few years old or even more, it didn't get played. As long as it was good music. So an Erárd that was even 20 years newer than the music would hardly be totally inappropriate. Also, of course, nearly all keyboard music post-1770, particularly in France, was composed for both cembalo and fortepiano. Usually you can tell by the fact that dynamic markings were being added, obviously they would be superfluous for a harpsichord!

Anyway, I can empathize with Johann's sense of violated purity concerning instrument choice, but I hope he hasn't let that spoil his enjoyment, because it is a step too far.

This disk has climbed yet another notch toward the top of my wish list... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: milk on March 22, 2014, 08:32:11 AM
I have a feeling that this is going to be a great recording. The samples sound great. I find myself cooling a bit to Spanyi and looking forward to a different take on CPE. Sometimes I think that Spanyi is a bit clunky.
[asin]B00HEVGKLQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on March 31, 2014, 08:48:56 AM
This grand thread moribund? Say it ain't so! Where is Uncle Connie? Let's listen again to Albrechtsberger, Michael Haydn, Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Zimmerman, Rigel, Pichl, Gossec, Tomasini, Titz, Boccherini, Brunetti, Bengraf and company! Woohoo!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 02, 2014, 04:52:24 AM
Time is so short these days, but I aim to take in these 3 items over the next few days:

Kuijken's Graun
[asin]B0000E32VY[/asin]

Giardini's string trios
[asin]B000050FKM[/asin]

Carl's contribution to the Contemporaries box
[asin]B003TLRKAK[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2014, 05:40:16 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on March 31, 2014, 08:48:56 AM
This grand thread moribund? Say it ain't so! Where is Uncle Connie? Let's listen again to Albrechtsberger, Michael Haydn, Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Zimmerman, Rigel, Pichl, Gossec, Tomasini, Titz, Boccherini, Brunetti, Bengraf and company! Woohoo!

Thanks, Chas, for keeping it going. Good question about Connie, he just disappeared one day, sad to say.  :(

I've still been listening, just had my writing efforts focused elsewhere. My bad.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 02, 2014, 06:13:28 AM
.[asin]B00ARL9PRQ[/asin]

A more-or-less recent discovery of mine, I found the band's tone thin, the music easy to hear but hard to listen to, background music basically. For those of us obsessed with the classical era SQ.

Here is an educated review from Fanfare:
QuoteNARDINI String Quartets Nos. 1-6 • Qrt Eleusi • BRILLIANT 94438 (68: 40)


Italy seems to have been fertile ground for the production of world-class violinists during the 18th century, and while one cannot claim that they had a monopoly on virtuosos on the instrument, names like Giuseppe Tartini, Pietro Locatelli, and Antonio Vivaldi (to name three who come to mind immediately) make it almost seem like it. Among these stars was Pietro Nardini (1722-1793), one of the principal teachers on the instrument, who had Read more achieved fame all over Europe through his travels in the 1750s and 1760s, so that it would seem that he was destined to take his place among the touring stars of the age, enhancing his reputation even further through numerous publications of works, such as sonatas and concertos. But he settled in Florence in 1769 and never really left. Not that it mattered, of course, for students sought him out. In 1770 the young Wolfgang Mozart performed for him, as did Charles Burney, and he played in a quartet that included fellow luminaries Giuseppe Cambini and Luigi Boccherini, the so-called Quartetto Toscano. His own style was known for its expressivity, using performing technique to heighten emotional display on the instrument, particularly in the slow movements.


With such a reputation, one might think that he would have produced significantly for strings, particularly in the realm of chamber music. And indeed he did, again for his own instrument, but it is somewhat ironic that he apparently only composed six string quartets. All in major keys, they are difficult to reconcile with his pedagogical approach to playing, in that they are all very pleasant works of easy to moderate difficulty. When they were published, around 1782, the quartet had already achieved some rather distinctive characteristics, notably in the works of Joseph Haydn, and thus their apparent tameness even though written by one of Europe's acknowledged violin masters, must have come as a shock. So much so that, as the nicely written booklet notes say, particularly the German buyers rejected them. Nardini himself noted in a letter of 1789: "Maybe they didn't like them, or maybe they did not know how to execute them," noting further that when originally sent throughout the continent "nobody pointed out this problem." This, of course, is certainly one of the lamer excuses for not coming up to snuff.


So, in a nutshell, how are these six works, exactly? The answer lies in how one wishes to perceive them independently and without invidious comparisons. They are, indeed, quite well written and well formulated pieces, not progressive but certainly suitable enough for the Gebrauchsmusik of the time. They are generally dominated by the first and second violins, often in parallel thirds, with the viola acting as harmonic filler against a stable bass line. In the First Quartet in A Major, the ostinato patterns of symphonic music can be discerned, replete with lots of clichés we come to regard as "Mannheim." In the Second in C Major, the opening is so squared off that one might think Nardini was really wanting these to be produced as quadros or orchestral quartets à la Carl Stamitz. Only in the opening of the Third in B?-Major does one discern a touch of Haydn in the almost quotational themes and textures; it is as if Nardini was channeling the op. 9. Since four of the quartets are only two movements long, it is clear that the op. 9 overall format was not foremost on his mind, however, and in the two three-movement works one finds the composer's signature Adagio emerging. The C-Major Quartet has an insistent plaintive quality that begs for sentiment, while the Comodo movement of the First Quartet allows for the cello to emerge from its role with a nice line, altering the textures. In the second movement of the Fifth Quartet in G Major, the smooth legato and meandering melody almost cry out for improvisation, but there is also a sense of mystery. Only one movement, the minuet of the Fourth Quartet, doesn't really work well, for it veers off course, though there are some nice echo effects between the viola and cello. In short, these are intended to please performers and audience without requiring too much ability or thought on anyone's part, just the sort of nice and accessible works one might wish in the background to genteel conversation.


The Quartetto Eleusi performs them with a good sense of ensemble, and I am particularly happy with the blend of textures. They seem to know when to accelerate the motion and when to throttle back, giving the quartets a solid interpretation. Sometimes their sound is quite rich, like these works ought to be performed, and one would be hard put to find better for the type of music Nardini wrote. As for my recommendation, it will of course depend upon whether a listener is interested in solid, well-composed but somewhat mundane compositions in the genre, or whether there is an expectation of something new, exciting, progressive, and stimulating. For the former, these are fine recordings and I have no reservations whatsoever in recommending this disc. I find that the music is well done, the compositions delightful to hear, and the works solid technically. For those who might be on the hunt for another Haydn, they may find that Nardini is not their cup of tea. Still, these do show what the real general string quartet in circulation during the Classical period was like.


FANFARE: Bertil van Boer
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2014, 06:20:18 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 02, 2014, 06:13:28 AM
.[asin]B00ARL9PRQ[/asin]

A more-or-less recent discovery of mine, I found the band's tone thin, the music easy to hear but hard to listen to, background music basically. For those of us obsessed with the classical era SQ.

Here is an educated review from Fanfare:

Thanks for that, Chas. I have heard much of Nardini, as Boer says, he was famous. But I haven't heard any music of his. I'll have to pick this one up, I like the rare, Italian, Classical Era music.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: chasmaniac on April 03, 2014, 03:48:21 AM
Quote from: chasmaniac on April 02, 2014, 04:52:24 AM
Time is so short these days, but I aim to take in these 3 items over the next few days:

Carl's contribution to the Contemporaries box
[asin]B003TLRKAK[/asin]

The Chandos sound is too wet for my taste, but the playing is fine and the music most pleasurable. Fits into the Richter-Beck camp sort of thing.

I was oddly entranced by the middle movement of La Chasse. Had to listen to it twice! Reminded me of something, perhaps the peripatetic opening of Haydn's Philosopher? Perhaps some tumult of my past, rounded by time into an episode edified by maturer wisdom...

And maybe I'm just cracked.   ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2014, 07:10:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2014, 06:20:18 AM
I like the rare, Italian, Classical Era music.  :)

Then you'll love these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HJ54XCCXL.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/612Y5X61ADL._SY300_.jpg)

Or are they already yours?  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2014, 07:17:34 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 24, 2014, 07:10:36 AM
Then you'll love these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HJ54XCCXL.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/612Y5X61ADL._SY300_.jpg)

Or are they already yours?  :D

No, Giordani is new to me. I will check him out. Thanks for the idea. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 24, 2014, 07:27:56 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2014, 07:17:34 AM
No, Giordani is new to me. I will check him out. Thanks for the idea. :)
You're welcome. I'm sure you'll like him.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: torut on May 09, 2014, 07:44:35 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 22, 2011, 11:31:23 AM
I have been listening to this composer, Wilhelm Wilms, for the first time by listening to his 6th Symphony, as recorded by Concerto Köln.

[asin]B00016OYNW[/asin]

Wow. Upon listening to this 6th Symphony I'm very moved by the nuances of the melody and orchestration.

I love Wilms's Symphony No. 6 on that disc. When I first heard an excerpt of the disc on a sample CD attached to a periodical, I wondered if it was a newly discovered Beethoven's work. ;D I purchased it as soon as I could.

I also have this (Piano concerto, Flute concerto, Symphony in E-Flat Major, Op. 14.) I think he had his own distinct style.
[asin]B000MV98EG[/asin]

I once checked audio samples of this CD (Symphony Op. 14, Op. 23, Op. 52, Op. 58) but I felt the playing of Op. 58 (Symphony No. 6) was a little dull compared with Concerto Koln. It was just a quick hearing, and I may be wrong.
[asin]B000EOTCBK[/asin]

I have not heard this one yet.
[asin]B002985NNK[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Geo Dude on June 11, 2014, 07:12:30 PM
Those Nardini quartets sound quite nice...and hopefully that (massive) CPE Bach box will end up trickling down through the Marketplace over time. 8)

So...any recommendations for French classical period composers?  French baroque is (reasonably) well known, most of us could name some of the leading lights from the romantic period (and certainly 20th century) but....hit the classical era and they seem to have dropped off the face of the Earth!  If anyone has knowledge of this area, it will be the folks in this thread. :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 13, 2014, 09:21:23 AM
Hoffmeister, Franz Anton (1754-1812) - Viennese music publisher, composer, musician, and namesake of one of Mozart's SQs - below is a post I left in this thread in 2009 - owned only 2 CDs of his works then, and now have acquired more equalling a half dozen (pics added).  But as I was reading the liner notes from these new additions to my collection, I was astounded by the number of works he wrote; so might be of interest to put together some recommendations.

Attached is a PDF file of a brief biography of the composer; also below is a list of some of his compositions and the vast number in many of the categories that I could gleam from liner notes; of course, this list leaves out a LOT of the music he wrote - e.g. I don't even know how many more 'chamber' works (for such instruments as clarinet, strings, etc.) might be added? 

Flute Concertos - 25 at least
Flute Duets - 131
Flute Sonatas - 39
Operas - 8 at least
Piano Concertos - 14 or more
String Quartets - 34 or more
String Quintets - 15 at least
Symphonies - 50 or more

So my recent purchases immediately below - comments and/or other recommendations?  Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wo5WLLWoL._SX300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519ihwj9GML._SY300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6159Fi6av6L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515h5a5COmL._SL500_SY300_.jpg)


Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 10, 2009, 05:47:18 PM
Franz Hoffmeister (1754-1812) - a Mozart contemporary, but lived longer! Just have two CDs of this composer, both of which I enjoy and shown below:

Wind Serenades, Vol. 2 w/ Consortium Classicum (with the wonderful Dieter Klocker on clarinet!) - other instruments include clarinet, horns, bassoons, & double bass; recorded beautifully on the CPO label.

Clarinet Quartets w/ Klocker again + Vlach Quartet Prague (2 violins + cello); again CPO label.

Now, how is the Clarinet & Piano disc? May add to my 'to buy' list if good!  ;D

(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:2yRL7Q7cI728qM:http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2006/Feb06/hoffmeister_7771332.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/450/455971.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 21, 2014, 06:14:56 AM
BOY, I cannot believe that no one has visited 'Gurn's Classical Thread' since my last post!  :(

Well I just left a post in the 'Listening Thread' that will become buried - a little longer than my usual there, so I'll just repost here for those interested - Johann & Carl Stamitz, father & son - part of the revolutionary Mannheim orchestra - worth exploring for those interested in the mid-18th century development of the classical orchestra.  Dave :)

QuoteStamitz, Johann (1717-1757) - Symphonies w/ two different conductors & orchestras.  I was reading about the Mannheim orchestra the other day and despite owning nearly a half dozen discs of the music of Carl Stamitz, I had nothing by his father, Johann - so new arrivals below to correct that situation.

Johann Stamitz was one of the early conductors of the Mannheim orchestra and started (or added & enhanced) many of the orchestral practices that today are taken for granted (e.g. the Mannheim crescendo was almost revolutionary @ the time, along w/ a number of other nicknames - check HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim_school)); AND, the members of the orchestra over time were extraordinary - quoted below just a few of the virtuosos & also composers (same link) - SO, if one wants to hear how the 'classical orchestra' evolved in the mid-18th century and who was one of its early innovators, then these CDs are recommended.  Dave :)

QuoteMembers of the Mannheim school included Johann Stamitz, Franz Xaver Richter, Carl Stamitz, Franz Ignaz Beck, Ignaz Fränzl, and Christian Cannabich

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rSYm4HL0L.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C0D6n3A8L.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 24, 2014, 12:16:32 AM
Perhaps I am late to the party, but did not see anything here on this new series by hyperion on the classical concerto:
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571280271.png)

It is scheduled for an August release. Very exciting!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 24, 2014, 01:41:41 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 24, 2014, 12:16:32 AM
Perhaps I am late to the party, but did not see anything here on this new series by hyperion on the classical concerto:
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571280271.png)

It is scheduled for an August release. Very exciting!

Hi Neal - looking forward to the reviews on that new series - just curious about 'how many' Piano Concertos were composed by Dussek - list below from HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Jan_Ladislav_Dussek); and just a few sentences from that article quoted immediately below - Dave :)

QuoteThe Artaria Company published a thematic catalog of his works that is incomplete,[1] prompting Howard Craw to develop a new thematic catalog in 1964. Works are numbered in the order they were written prefixed by "C" or "Craw"; works of dubious origin are listed in a separately numbered section prefixed by "Craw D".

List of Piano Concerto by Dussek:
Op.1-1 (Craw 2) \ Piano Concerto No.1 (1783)
Op.1-2 (Craw 3) \ Piano Concerto No.2 (1783)
Op.1-3 (Craw 4) \ Piano Concerto No.3 (1783)
Op.3 (Craw 33) \ Piano Concerto No.4 (1787)
Op.14 (Craw 77) \ Piano Concerto No.5 (1791)
Op.17 (Craw 78) \ Piano Concerto No.6 (1792)
Op.22 (Craw 97) \ Piano Concerto No.7 (1793)
Op.27 (Craw 104) \ Piano Concerto No.8 (1794)
Op.29 (Craw 125) \ Piano Concerto No.9 (1795)
Op.40 (Craw 153) \ Piano Concerto No.10 (1799)
No opus number (Craw 158) \ Piano Concerto No.11 (1798?)
Op.49 (Craw 187) \ Piano Concerto No.12 (1801)
Op.70 (Craw 238) \ Piano Concerto No.13 (1810)
Piano Concerto Craw 1 (lost)
Piano Concerto Craw D7 (dubious)
Piano Concerto Craw D8 (dubious)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 24, 2014, 08:49:32 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 24, 2014, 01:41:41 PM
Hi Neal - looking forward to the reviews on that new series - just curious about 'how many' Piano Concertos were composed by Dussek - list below from HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Jan_Ladislav_Dussek); and just a few sentences from that article quoted immediately below - Dave :)

List of Piano Concerto by Dussek:
Op.1-1 (Craw 2) \ Piano Concerto No.1 (1783)
Op.1-2 (Craw 3) \ Piano Concerto No.2 (1783)
Op.1-3 (Craw 4) \ Piano Concerto No.3 (1783)
Op.3 (Craw 33) \ Piano Concerto No.4 (1787)
Op.14 (Craw 77) \ Piano Concerto No.5 (1791)
Op.17 (Craw 78) \ Piano Concerto No.6 (1792)
Op.22 (Craw 97) \ Piano Concerto No.7 (1793)
Op.27 (Craw 104) \ Piano Concerto No.8 (1794)
Op.29 (Craw 125) \ Piano Concerto No.9 (1795)
Op.40 (Craw 153) \ Piano Concerto No.10 (1799)
No opus number (Craw 158) \ Piano Concerto No.11 (1798?)
Op.49 (Craw 187) \ Piano Concerto No.12 (1801)
Op.70 (Craw 238) \ Piano Concerto No.13 (1810)
Piano Concerto Craw 1 (lost)
Piano Concerto Craw D7 (dubious)
Piano Concerto Craw D8 (dubious)
He has at least one concerto for two pianos as well. I seem to recall I have a disc with that.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 02:28:00 PM
Anyone ever heard of Ernst Wilhelm Wolf?  Apparently there was a mutual admiration between him and C.P.E. Bach regarding each other's clavichord music.  There is a recording of some of his keyboard sonatas here, and I find them in an idiom very much informed by Carl Philip, lots to like here. 
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/AM12062.gif)

Apparently he wrote symphonies too.  There is one recording of them, but they are not on period instruments.  There is however, a compilation CD of different obscure classical composers, with 2 of his symphonies, on period instruments, well performed.  I find them to be like a very baroque informed early-mid Haydn.  To be more precise, he doesn't do Haydn as well Haydn by a long shot, but there is surprisingly that aspect of the high baroque in them and a sturm und drang quality as well.  These were not the symphonies I expected from a composer of clavichord sonatas like CPE Bach.  Certain passages are almost like Concerto Grosso writing, but it is unmistakably classical at the same time.

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/C71128.gif)

I preferred his keyboard work to the symphonies, but nonetheless quality work in both.  The clavichord music is really worth getting excited over.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2014, 02:34:07 PM
Quote from: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 02:28:00 PM
Anyone ever heard of Ernst Wilhelm Wolf?  Apparently there was a mutual admiration between him and C.P.E. Bach regarding each other's clavichord music.  There is a recording of some of his keyboard sonatas here, and I find them in an idiom very much informed by Carl Philip, lots to like here. 
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/AM12062.gif)

Apparently he wrote symphonies too.  There is one recording of them, but they are not on period instruments.  There is however, a compilation CD of different obscure classical composers, with 2 of his symphonies, on period instruments, well performed.  I find them to be like a very baroque informed early-mid Haydn.  To be more precise, he doesn't do Haydn as well Haydn by a long shot, but there is surprisingly that aspect of the high baroque in them and a sturm und drang quality as well.  These were not the symphonies I expected from a composer of clavichord sonatas like CPE Bach.  Certain passages are almost like Concerto Grosso writing, but it is unmistakably classical at the same time.

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/C71128.gif)

I preferred his keyboard work to the symphonies, but nonetheless quality work in both.  The clavichord music is really worth getting excited over.

I have that clavichord disk: it took emailing the performer and buying a copy out of his closet in Switzerland, but well worth the effort.  I collect keyboard sonatas from the Classic Era, and I found Wolf in this book, my bible for the genre:

[asin]0393006239[/asin]

Drat, no picture; here:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91CXSbeUJtL.jpg)

I haven't heard anything else by him though, although the symphonies sound interesting. Thanks for pointing them out, maybe I'll get lucky and find them!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2014, 03:53:53 PM
Quote from: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 02:28:00 PM
Anyone ever heard of Ernst Wilhelm Wolf? 
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/AM12062.gif)  (http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/C71128.gif)

Apparently he wrote symphonies too. 

I preferred his keyboard work to the symphonies, but nonetheless quality work in both.  The clavichord music is really worth getting excited over.

Ernst Wilhelm Wolf (1735-1792) - about Haydn's age - own nothing by this composer but love the clavichord - not sure about present availability?

However, I do have a half dozen discs of works by Joseph Wölfl (1773-1812) - SO many of these now little known composers - Dave :)

ADDENDUM: Just found the clavichord recording as a MP3 DL on Classicsonline for $8 - will do now!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
I will have to invest in your bible, Gurn. 

I saw a while ago the works of Johann Melchoir Molter mentioned.  I fined this composer interesting, he was more of a baroque-classical transition figure, having been born in the 1690s.  He either sounds to me like Telemann with a very busy wind section in his works like overture suites, or more preclassical in his symphonies(similar feel but different in his concerti, maybe more of that brilliant baroque sound in some), but then there are these works of his called 'Sonata grossa', a type of piece he seems to have invented.  My favorite piece of his I've yet heard is one of these, on this disk, in G minor
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/AE-10037.gif).

Though that piece is more baroque, it has elements of the gallant in it.  I think Molter was a very inventive fellow with a charming style, and a knack for unpredictability, much like Telemann, only with a more progressive style being of a younger generation.



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
Another name I'd like to mention, though it may not be exactly at the heart of the repertoire that Gurn's classical corner is about, is Sebastian De Albero.  A younger Spanish contemporary of Domenico Scarlatti, who outlived him, Albero's sonatas are less virtuosic but sometimes very interestingly dissonant and quirkier yet than your usual Scarlatti.  The only recordings available in the Naxos Music Library are of his set of 30 sonatas, but Albero wrote some more works that are of an interesting form, a ricercar, fugue, and sonata.  Albero's ricercar is more or less a strange unmeasured piece that is hard to interpret, but an educated performer can do, though there will be much variation, his fugue's are interesting thematically but very long and thorny in the situations they get themselves into; but the sonatas of these groupings are somewhat more developed than the 30 sonatas from before, more like Scarlatti perhaps. 

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/HCD31621.gif)

My favorite sonatas on this disc are number's 4, 6, and 8.  Albero had really nice ideas and was not afraid to be very harmonically bold.  A very fun and rewarding composer to know and to play.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2014, 05:23:54 PM
Quote from: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
I will have to invest in your bible, Gurn. 

Indeed, and worth your while. Hard to know what to hunt for without a program!

QuoteI saw a while ago the works of Johann Melchoir Molter mentioned.  I fined this composer interesting, he was more of a baroque-classical transition figure, having been born in the 1690s.  He either sounds to me like Telemann with a very busy wind section in his works like overture suites, or more preclassical in his symphonies(similar feel but different in his concerti, maybe more of that brilliant baroque sound in some), but then there are these works of his called 'Sonata grossa', a type of piece he seems to have invented.  My favorite piece of his I've yet heard is one of these, on this disk, in G minor
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/AE-10037.gif).

Though that piece is more baroque, it has elements of the gallant in it.  I think Molter was a very inventive fellow with a charming style, and a knack for unpredictability, much like Telemann, only with a more progressive style being of a younger generation.

Molter would be new to me, likely because of his time period, he was off my radar. Here is one who IS on my radar, and who should be of interest to you, given your apparent interests:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Muumlthel_zps7ec027b7.jpg)

If you haven't run across him yet, you might well do; beautiful instrument too!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2014, 05:26:43 PM
Quote from: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
Another name I'd like to mention, though it may not be exactly at the heart of the repertoire that Gurn's classical corner is about, is Sebastian De Albero.  A younger Spanish contemporary of Domenico Scarlatti, who outlived him, Albero's sonatas are less virtuosic but sometimes very interestingly dissonant and quirkier yet than your usual Scarlatti.  The only recordings available in the Naxos Music Library are of his set of 30 sonatas, but Albero wrote some more works that are of an interesting form, a ricercar, fugue, and sonata.  Albero's ricercar is more or less a strange unmeasured piece that is hard to interpret, but an educated performer can do, though there will be much variation, his fugue's are interesting thematically but very long and thorny in the situations they get themselves into; but the sonatas of these groupings are somewhat more developed than the 30 sonatas from before, more like Scarlatti perhaps. 

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/HCD31621.gif)

My favorite sonatas on this disc are number's 4, 6, and 8.  Albero had really nice ideas and was not afraid to be very harmonically bold.  A very fun and rewarding composer to know and to play.

Hmmm, that's interesting looking. I can easily see me tracking that disk down. I am not in a position to stream music, and I don't care for downloads unless that's all there is, but I will turn over plenty of stones to find an interesting CD... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2014, 05:28:20 PM
Well, I did a MP3 DL of the Wolf clavichord disc w/ Simmonds - on Classicsonline for $8 - now on my laptop, iPod, and burned to CD-R - listening to the latter @ the moment - the clavichord used is excellent and the sound is really 'up front' which I like; feel like I'm sitting next to the instrument - the music is enjoyable but just getting started - the booklet notes were part of the download - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-ZX6zwf6/0/O/Wolf_KB_Web.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2014, 05:44:30 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2014, 05:28:20 PM
Well, I did a MP3 DL of the Wolf clavichord disc w/ Simmonds - on Classicsonline for $8 - now on my laptop, iPod, and burned to CD-R - listening to the latter @ the moment - the clavichord used is excellent and the sound is really 'up front' which I like; feel like I'm sitting next to the instrument - the music is enjoyable but just getting started - the booklet notes were part of the download - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-ZX6zwf6/0/O/Wolf_KB_Web.jpg)

I'm surprised I didn't post that disk here when I finally got it. Lord knows I worked at it long enough!  :)  You were lucky to get the notes too, Dave. That's something which has made downloads more palatable these days (except when all it accomplishes is to tell you the notes really suck!  :P )  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2014, 06:02:01 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2014, 05:44:30 PM
I'm surprised I didn't post that disk here when I finally got it. Lord knows I worked at it long enough!  :)  You were lucky to get the notes too, Dave. That's something which has made downloads more palatable these days (except when all it accomplishes is to tell you the notes really suck!  :P )  :)

Hi Gurn - well, the notes were by Simmonds and are decent (Classicsonline does not always have the booklets but likely not under their control?) - but the clavichord is just excellent (still listening), so enjoying - decided to go ahead and order the Naxos symphony disc below (good review HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/wolf-four-symphonies-mw0001379711))- the guy wrote a LOT of music, much lost and most not recorded - but we've been through this before! ;)  Dave

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H64jY1XyL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2014, 06:08:39 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2014, 06:02:01 PM
Hi Gurn - well, the notes were by Simmonds and are decent (Classicsonline does not always have the booklets but likely not under their control?) - but the clavichord is just excellent (still listening), so enjoying - decided to go ahead and order the Naxos symphony disc below (good review HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/wolf-four-symphonies-mw0001379711))- the guy wrote a LOT of music, much lost and most not recorded - but we've been through this before! ;)  Dave

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H64jY1XyL.jpg)

Yes, I had a nice chat with Simmonds when I bought the disk. I wasn't kidding, he sold me one he had in his closet!!  I think he lives in Zurich, IIRC. Nice guy, anyway. I agree, the instrument itself is wonderful, and he plays it very well. Specialist, you know.

I really didn't know he wrote a lot or any of it was recorded. I think when I was hunting that keyboard disk, my search parameters were really narrow, mainly because his name is Wolf! So I didn't hit the symphonies, for example, although that disk may not have existed then either (2010?).

Yes, we have. When I go through that sort of travail to find some non-mainstream Haydn recording, one can imagine what it's like with a 'lesser' composer. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2014, 07:32:13 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2014, 05:23:54 PM
Molter would be new to me, likely because of his time period, he was off my radar. Here is one who IS on my radar, and who should be of interest to you, given your apparent interests:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Muumlthel_zps7ec027b7.jpg)

If you haven't run across him yet, you might well do; beautiful instrument too!

Gurn - I second the recommendation shown above - that 2-disc set was on my wish list for months and finally appeared @ a good price (can't remember where I bought it but was pleased w/ the price) - outstanding clavichord performance and well recorded!

Also, reviewed a 'short' Wiki article on Ernst Wolf - he was quite productive - below just a summary of his output (and who knows how much beyond what is known) - yet another of these forgotten composers that one could end up owning dozens of discs if available?  Dave :)

Symphonies 35+ (26 survived)
KB concertos 25 or so
KB sonatas 60+
Chamber works - numerous (survival?)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on October 09, 2014, 10:34:38 PM
Quote from: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
Another name I'd like to mention, though it may not be exactly at the heart of the repertoire that Gurn's classical corner is about, is Sebastian De Albero.  A younger Spanish contemporary of Domenico Scarlatti, who outlived him, Albero's sonatas are less virtuosic but sometimes very interestingly dissonant and quirkier yet than your usual Scarlatti.  The only recordings available in the Naxos Music Library are of his set of 30 sonatas, but Albero wrote some more works that are of an interesting form, a ricercar, fugue, and sonata.  Albero's ricercar is more or less a strange unmeasured piece that is hard to interpret, but an educated performer can do, though there will be much variation, his fugue's are interesting thematically but very long and thorny in the situations they get themselves into; but the sonatas of these groupings are somewhat more developed than the 30 sonatas from before, more like Scarlatti perhaps. 

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/HCD31621.gif)

My favorite sonatas on this disc are number's 4, 6, and 8.  Albero had really nice ideas and was not afraid to be very harmonically bold.  A very fun and rewarding composer to know and to play.

Laure Colladant did a 2CD-set on the fortpiano: (unfortunately still on my wish list..)

[asin]B000025ZKX[/asin]
Q

PS Let me add my praise about the Muthel set by Menno van Dellft - love it, and one of the best recorded clavichord  discs I know.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on October 10, 2014, 04:59:16 PM
What do you guys think of the symphonies of Dittersdorf? 

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/570198.gif)

That CD probably has my favorite selection of symphonies of his I've heard.  I wasn't as fond of the Ovid Metamorphis symphonies.  I understand there is another CD, this one

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/553974.gif)

and I am investigating it right now.

I've always been curious about Dittersdorf, because some of his music is admittedly formulaic and simplistic, but there is a certain inventiveness to it sometimes that is attractive. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 11, 2014, 07:15:14 AM
Quote from: clavichorder on October 10, 2014, 04:59:16 PM
What do you guys think of the symphonies of Dittersdorf? 

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/570198.gif)  (http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/553974.gif)

That CD probably has my favorite selection of symphonies of his I've heard.  I wasn't as fond of the Ovid Metamorphis symphonies.  I understand there
and I am investigating it right now.  I've always been curious about Dittersdorf, because some of his music is admittedly formulaic and simplistic, but there is a certain inventiveness to it sometimes that is attractive.

Dittersdorf (nee Carl Ditters before given a fake title - ;)) has his own thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13192.0.html) started back in 2009 - not much activity until the second page, BUT there is a link to a more thorough thread from the 'old' forum and also search my link to his autobiography (dictated to his son at the end of Dittersdorf's life) - a quick and interesting read.

As for me, I have about 8 CDs or so - Symphonies & Chamber Music mainly (plus his Giob oratorio) - I've enjoyed nearly all of Dittersdorf music, including the symphonies - I have the second Naxos CD shown above - and the 6 based on Ovid on the Chandos label (apparently there is another set on a different label - attached is a Fanfare review from 1990 comparing the two sets, if interested) - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on October 11, 2014, 07:48:17 AM
I'm not familiar with his symphonies, but his string quartets and quintets are a delight.

(http://www.kubinquartet.cz/fotky/booklety/08.jpg)(http://www.kubinquartet.cz/fotky/booklety/09.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2014, 08:42:19 AM
I have only a little Ditters, I have those Naxos disks and quite like them. Also, the Ovid disks by Cantilena:

[asin]B000LZLDPK[/asin] (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DnTlmMp8L.jpg)

which is really quite nicely played, whatever you think of the music. I like it, but hey, that's just me.

I also have these:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Ditterssinfoniascover_zps093ac95e.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Dittersdorf1cover_zpsa69dec95.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Dittersdorf2cover_zpsb5161d9a.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/DittersBassampViolaConcertoscover_zpsd8f1a3e4.jpg)

Also, this series, Baroque Bohemia & Beyond has quite a bit of Ditters blended in. Like the nice violin concerto on this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/BaroqueBohemiacover5_zpsa535f7fd.jpg)

Ditters was a very highly esteemed composer in his time. It's true, his star faded in the 19th century, when only the more unusual composers survived the cut. Two composers from that time who are off the mainstream and who I can recommend are Ditters and Vanhal. Some other who are even more off the mainstream are Myslivecek and Georg Benda and Ignaz Beck. Of course, there are many others before and after, but I'm taking a very specific time period here, mainly the 1760's & '70's. You can feel confident you aren't wasting time and money if you reach out to these guys, they are always good, occasionally very good. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: clavichorder on October 14, 2014, 03:32:52 PM
Quote from: clavichorder on October 09, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
Another name I'd like to mention, though it may not be exactly at the heart of the repertoire that Gurn's classical corner is about, is Sebastian De Albero.  A younger Spanish contemporary of Domenico Scarlatti, who outlived him, Albero's sonatas are less virtuosic but sometimes very interestingly dissonant and quirkier yet than your usual Scarlatti.  The only recordings available in the Naxos Music Library are of his set of 30 sonatas, but Albero wrote some more works that are of an interesting form, a ricercar, fugue, and sonata.  Albero's ricercar is more or less a strange unmeasured piece that is hard to interpret, but an educated performer can do, though there will be much variation, his fugue's are interesting thematically but very long and thorny in the situations they get themselves into; but the sonatas of these groupings are somewhat more developed than the 30 sonatas from before, more like Scarlatti perhaps. 

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/HCD31621.gif)

My favorite sonatas on this disc are number's 4, 6, and 8.  Albero had really nice ideas and was not afraid to be very harmonically bold.  A very fun and rewarding composer to know and to play.



Another shameless plug for Albero.  These works hold up. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on February 03, 2015, 08:30:05 AM
Been enjoying this today

[asin]B00004TGB5[/asin]

Krommer - Clarinet Quartets, No. 21 (1802), 82 & 83 (1816)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2015, 09:06:06 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on February 03, 2015, 08:30:05 AM
Been enjoying this today

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91ZqgDMERYL._SL1403_.jpg)  (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/963/MI0000963762.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Q-reeRaBL.jpg)

Krommer - Clarinet Quartets, No. 21 (1802), 82 & 83 (1816)

Hi Sanantone - I have the 2-CD set w/ Klöcker (adds Op. 69 & a posthumous work) on a modern clarinet - just curious if you know the type of instrument used in the Brunner recording that you showed?  Also, seems to be another interesting CD of other Krommer chamber works - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on February 03, 2015, 10:11:01 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2015, 09:06:06 AM
Hi Sanantone - I have the 2-CD set w/ Klöcker (adds Op. 69 & a posthumous work) on a modern clarinet - just curious if you know the type of instrument used in the Brunner recording that you showed?  Also, seems to be another interesting CD of other Krommer chamber works - Dave :)

I do not know, but am assuming it is a modern clarinet.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2015, 12:00:20 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on February 03, 2015, 10:11:01 AM
I do not know, but am assuming it is a modern clarinet.

I found several reviews of the two CDs w/ Brunner - no mention was made about a period clarinet (which I do love!), so assume a MI - however, both of those discs received superb comments and the reviewer preferred them over the Klöcker performances - might have to change allegiance?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2015, 12:09:49 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2015, 12:00:20 PM
I found several reviews of the two CDs w/ Brunner - no mention was made about a period clarinet (which I do love!), so assume a MI - however, both of those discs received superb comments and the reviewer preferred them over the Klöcker performances - might have to change allegiance?  Dave :)

I have the one with the darker blue cover. It is with the Amati Quartet, so certainly MI. I don't have the Klöcker for comparison, but I can sya this disk is uniformly excellent. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2015, 02:30:34 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2015, 12:09:49 PM
I have the one with the darker blue cover. It is with the Amati Quartet, so certainly MI. I don't have the Klöcker for comparison, but I can sya this disk is uniformly excellent. :)

Hey Gurn - I decided to order both of the Brunner CDs of Krommer's clarinet chamber works and will cull out the Klöcker from my collection - the comments on Fanfare were just too convincing - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 05:02:43 AM
This Krommer disc is very good, too.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dak6VAmrL._SX355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 04, 2015, 06:30:05 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 05:02:43 AM
This Krommer disc is very good, too.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dak6VAmrL._SX355_.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-jJTfd4m/0/O/Krommer_winds1.jpg)

Krommer's wind pieces for larger ensembles is quite enjoyable - I have three discs, a couple on Naxos and the one above on Accent w/ the wonderful period group Amphion Wind Octet, probably the favorite in my collection - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2015, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 05:02:43 AM
This Krommer disc is very good, too.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dak6VAmrL._SX355_.jpg)

I have what Dave has here; curious, is that Brilliant one also 3 disks? IOW, is it the complete wind partitas? Nice music!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 12:25:02 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2015, 07:33:59 AM
I have what Dave has here; curious, is that Brilliant one also 3 disks? IOW, is it the complete wind partitas? Nice music!

8)

Unfortunately it´s one single disc, featuring (in order) op. 57, 79, 67 and 69. I am very pleased with the performance and the total time (78:11) is not bad either.

Speaking of harmoniemusik, second to the nec plus ultra of Gran Partita my favorite is KV 375. Please recommend me some others besides Mozart and Krommer.



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2015, 12:58:29 PM
Quote from: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 12:25:02 PM
Unfortunately it´s one single disc, featuring (in order) op. 57, 79, 67 and 69. I am very pleased with the performance and the total time (78:11) is not bad either.

Speaking of harmoniemusik, second to the nec plus ultra of Gran Partita my favorite is KV 375. Please recommend me some others besides Mozart and Krommer.

Of course, just famous people, you have Beethoven's Op 103 Octet, which is a Harmonie.

But then you have some less famous, but only because they are specialists. One is this one:

[asin]B00365QSH0[/asin]

Kraus has an opera called Amphitryon  which was played on this disk (doesn't look available here anymore):

[asin]B00CH8BSZO[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61HsAgDDY7L.jpg)

I got this long ago and it is very nice.

There are others, I'm just not where I can look them over to make suggestions. Tonight from home, if I can remember. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on February 20, 2015, 06:08:56 PM
Cross post.  Should be of interest here.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg870452.html#msg870452
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Ken B on February 20, 2015, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: Florestan on February 04, 2015, 12:25:02 PM
Unfortunately it´s one single disc, featuring (in order) op. 57, 79, 67 and 69. I am very pleased with the performance and the total time (78:11) is not bad either.

Speaking of harmoniemusik, second to the nec plus ultra of Gran Partita my favorite is KV 375. Please recommend me some others besides Mozart and Krommer.

Sabine Meyer has a box set out. Highly recommnded. Even for the semmelweiss-challenged!  ;)
Danzi has good stuff. Myslivicek. R Strauss's wind band stuff.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: telemann on March 20, 2015, 06:22:43 PM
I am a newcomer to this site but welcome its informed and committed discussion of those eternal music eras, the baroque and classical. I'm a big admirer of Haydn too - and never fail to marvel over how an Austrian farm boy could reach his level of sophistication in composition.

I once played viola in a civic orchestra on the West coast of Florida which had a mix of professional and amateur players. We were first given Haydn's 90th Symphony to play with numerous rehearsal options, but it was so difficult that the conductor had to replace it with Bizet's L'Arlesienne Suite. Imagine, musicians of Haydn's time  had to play newly composed music of that caliber with little or no rehearsal!

I have to assume that Haydn's patrons, the Eszterhazys were sophisticated people as were the guests for whom the court orchestra performed. It's been pointed out by Alexis de Tocqueville, the writer of the classical book on American democracy, that before his time European aristocracy in general was intellectually advanced. In their formal sobriquets the words "Serene Majesty" connoted the idea that power and violence were in the past and enlightenment was to be cultivated.

So in this time of bloodshed and turmoil, it's especially rewarding to enjoy both the inspirations and preferred philosophical directions of humankind in the 18th Century.

Regarding texts on music I highly respect Charles Rosen's skills, though not his philosophy. He has written openly that the nonprofessional or inexperienced musical public is not qualified to judge the value of music. That's why I'm a reform advocate. The wisdom of professionals has extolled John Cage and Pierre Boulez and their peers. I think many of us will agree that music of more lasting value was produced when even the most gifted musicians like Mozart were constrained to providing enjoyment and stimulation rather than just following their muse or writing for peer academics.

Mozart once wrote his father that his music had two levels, a more superficial one for entertainment, and a deeper one for connoisseurs. If he had lived in the later 20th Century he might have gone off the deep end too! I don't think Haydn took that attitude, Gurn may be able to affirm that he was deeply committed to providing musical inspiration to people and felt rewarded when he did so.

As you can tell, I'm  an audience-oriented classical advocate for reform of the musical establishment. My user name indicates that George Philipp Telemann has become my favorite composer for reasons I might mention in a future post. I'm also a great fan of both Stamitz's.

Cordial regards
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 21, 2015, 07:47:47 AM
Quote from: telemann on March 20, 2015, 06:22:43 PM
I am a newcomer to this site but welcome its informed and committed discussion of those eternal music eras, the baroque and classical. I'm a big admirer of Haydn too - and never fail to marvel over how an Austrian farm boy could reach his level of sophistication in composition.
.....................
As you can tell, I'm  an audience-oriented classical advocate for reform of the musical establishment. My user name indicates that George Philipp Telemann has become my favorite composer for reasons I might mention in a future post. I'm also a great fan of both Stamitz's.

Hello & welcome Telemann - thanks for the comments - as you may already know, we do have a Telemann thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,308.40.html) which deserves more attention, but was recently 'bumped' w/ some interesting activity, so take a look there and please post.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2015, 04:28:00 PM
Quote from: telemann on March 20, 2015, 06:22:43 PM
I am a newcomer to this site but welcome its informed and committed discussion of those eternal music eras, the baroque and classical. I'm a big admirer of Haydn too - and never fail to marvel over how an Austrian farm boy could reach his level of sophistication in composition.

I once played viola in a civic orchestra on the West coast of Florida which had a mix of professional and amateur players. We were first given Haydn's 90th Symphony to play with numerous rehearsal options, but it was so difficult that the conductor had to replace it with Bizet's L'Arlesienne Suite. Imagine, musicians of Haydn's time  had to play newly composed music of that caliber with little or no rehearsal!

I have to assume that Haydn's patrons, the Eszterhazys were sophisticated people as were the guests for whom the court orchestra performed. It's been pointed out by Alexis de Tocqueville, the writer of the classical book on American democracy, that before his time European aristocracy in general was intellectually advanced. In their formal sobriquets the words "Serene Majesty" connoted the idea that power and violence were in the past and enlightenment was to be cultivated.

So in this time of bloodshed and turmoil, it's especially rewarding to enjoy both the inspirations and preferred philosophical directions of humankind in the 18th Century.

Regarding texts on music I highly respect Charles Rosen's skills, though not his philosophy. He has written openly that the nonprofessional or inexperienced musical public is not qualified to judge the value of music. That's why I'm a reform advocate. The wisdom of professionals has extolled John Cage and Pierre Boulez and their peers. I think many of us will agree that music of more lasting value was produced when even the most gifted musicians like Mozart were constrained to providing enjoyment and stimulation rather than just following their muse or writing for peer academics.

Mozart once wrote his father that his music had two levels, a more superficial one for entertainment, and a deeper one for connoisseurs. If he had lived in the later 20th Century he might have gone off the deep end too! I don't think Haydn took that attitude, Gurn may be able to affirm that he was deeply committed to providing musical inspiration to people and felt rewarded when he did so.

As you can tell, I'm  an audience-oriented classical advocate for reform of the musical establishment. My user name indicates that George Philipp Telemann has become my favorite composer for reasons I might mention in a future post. I'm also a great fan of both Stamitz's.

Cordial regards

Greeting, Herr Telemann! It's a pleasure to have you visit us; hope you decide to settle down here, we need more historians.  :) 

Serene Majesty, Dread Lord! Always liked Dread Lord. There is no doubt whatsoever, as we have discssed here from time to time, that one such as I, for example, would never have heard any of this music in its own place and time. Unless I was busy washing windows on the outside, or serving beverages to the Dread Lords.

Haydn's own orchestra was very likely an exception to the rule about not having practice time; he specifies ,for example, in the cover letter for the Applausus Cantata that it must be practiced fully, at least three or four times  (Step 9 in the letter here: Applausus (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1768-the-music-part-4-all-hail.html)).  I would believe he had more practice than that with his own group, sice it seems like a minimum he is recommending.

My personal belief is that just because someone is qualified to dissect and explain the workings of a piece of music, it doesn't follow that he/she is therefore qualified to pass judgement on its quality as work of art. I won't say more because I tend to get carried away by the topic.   :D

I'm not sure it is an attitude, the way we use the word today, which is slightly pejorative. Haydn was very well aware of the dichotomy between, as CPE Bach put it, Kenner und Liebhaber. He scratched out a big section of Symphony 42 and wrote in the margin "for too learned ears", for example. I sincerely believe that Haydn knew he was writing for entertainment, whether it was a fugue or a song, a Mass or opera, or a keyboard trio or a solo variation. This was his main goal, and following 'rules of composition' was only important to him insofar as they had been proved to be a reliable way to compose a cogent, entertaining piece. If this had been proved to him as false, he would have done it differently. There is no single act or document which demonstrates this, but if you read in depth about his life, little bits and pieces said and done will add up to an irrefutable argument in favor of this.

I am also a fan of both Stamitz's, and various others in that tme frame. I also think Telemann is vastly underrated today, although this was not always the case. I think he, like Haydn to a lesser extent, suffers from having an oeuvre so large it is difficult to get a grip on. Everything I have heard so far I have enjoyed, though.  :)

Cheers,
8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on March 21, 2015, 05:06:05 PM
Quote from: telemann on March 20, 2015, 06:22:43 PM
I am a newcomer to this site but welcome its informed and committed discussion of those eternal music eras, the baroque and classical. I'm a big admirer of Haydn too - and never fail to marvel over how an Austrian farm boy could reach his level of sophistication in composition.

Regarding texts on music I highly respect Charles Rosen's skills, though not his philosophy. He has written openly that the nonprofessional or inexperienced musical public is not qualified to judge the value of music. That's why I'm a reform advocate. The wisdom of professionals has extolled John Cage and Pierre Boulez and their peers. I think many of us will agree that music of more lasting value was produced when even the most gifted musicians like Mozart were constrained to providing enjoyment and stimulation rather than just following their muse or writing for peer academics.

Cordial regards

Welcome to the forum.  We share an abiding interest in the Classical period and the music, especially Haydn.  Haydn, Mozart and some of the lesser known composers between 1750-1830 take up a significant amount of linear feet on my shelves.  Are you familiar with the books on this period by Donald Heartz?  In my opinion they are the best historical accounts of this period and the music and personalities.  However, they are hard to find at a reasonable price.  They are usually available from a good library.

Having said all that, I most emphatically do not share you opinion bolded above.  I consider John Cage the most important composer of the 20th century, and Pierre Boulez' music extremely fine.

Again, welcome and I hope you contribute more to this thread and the other threads devoted to composers from the period.

:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: EigenUser on March 22, 2015, 03:11:00 AM
Quote from: telemann on March 20, 2015, 06:22:43 PM
I am a newcomer to this site but welcome its informed and committed discussion of those eternal music eras, the baroque and classical. I'm a big admirer of Haydn too - and never fail to marvel over how an Austrian farm boy could reach his level of sophistication in composition.

I once played viola in a civic orchestra on the West coast of Florida which had a mix of professional and amateur players. We were first given Haydn's 90th Symphony to play with numerous rehearsal options, but it was so difficult that the conductor had to replace it with Bizet's L'Arlesienne Suite. Imagine, musicians of Haydn's time  had to play newly composed music of that caliber with little or no rehearsal!

I have to assume that Haydn's patrons, the Eszterhazys were sophisticated people as were the guests for whom the court orchestra performed. It's been pointed out by Alexis de Tocqueville, the writer of the classical book on American democracy, that before his time European aristocracy in general was intellectually advanced. In their formal sobriquets the words "Serene Majesty" connoted the idea that power and violence were in the past and enlightenment was to be cultivated.

So in this time of bloodshed and turmoil, it's especially rewarding to enjoy both the inspirations and preferred philosophical directions of humankind in the 18th Century.

Regarding texts on music I highly respect Charles Rosen's skills, though not his philosophy. He has written openly that the nonprofessional or inexperienced musical public is not qualified to judge the value of music. That's why I'm a reform advocate. The wisdom of professionals has extolled John Cage and Pierre Boulez and their peers. I think many of us will agree that music of more lasting value was produced when even the most gifted musicians like Mozart were constrained to providing enjoyment and stimulation rather than just following their muse or writing for peer academics.

Mozart once wrote his father that his music had two levels, a more superficial one for entertainment, and a deeper one for connoisseurs. If he had lived in the later 20th Century he might have gone off the deep end too! I don't think Haydn took that attitude, Gurn may be able to affirm that he was deeply committed to providing musical inspiration to people and felt rewarded when he did so.

As you can tell, I'm  an audience-oriented classical advocate for reform of the musical establishment. My user name indicates that George Philipp Telemann has become my favorite composer for reasons I might mention in a future post. I'm also a great fan of both Stamitz's.

Cordial regards
Hi neighbor (I'm from a little further north on Rt. 123, based off of your 'location' description)!

Not much too add to what has been said. Even though I've always been a 20th-century music guy, I had similar feelings about music being written 'academically' as opposed to 'viscerally' (for instance, I've always preferred Bartok and Ligeti over Schoenberg and Boulez). I still couldn't help feel interested in the music of the latter two and I liked trying to decode their puzzles. Then, it hit me that people have both hearts and minds. There's no reason why music can't be written for both. In fact, I think that most music is written with both in mind. Haydn certainly knew what he was doing. I like Gurn's particular example with his 42nd symphony (which I didn't know about). On the other hand, much of Boulez's later output seems to be concerned with both ends of the spectrum (it's easy to criticize Boulez in particular due to his vitriolic comments when he was younger, but I suspect that the younger Boulez wouldn't approve of the older Boulez!).
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: North Star on March 22, 2015, 03:41:49 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on March 22, 2015, 03:11:00 AM
Hi neighbor (I'm from a little further north on Rt. 123, based off of your 'location' description)!

Not much too add to what has been said. Even though I've always been a 20th-century music guy, I had similar feelings about music being written 'academically' as opposed to 'viscerally' (for instance, I've always preferred Bartok and Ligeti over Schoenberg and Boulez). I still couldn't help feel interested in the music of the latter two and I liked trying to decode their puzzles. Then, it hit me that people have both hearts and minds. There's no reason why music can't be written for both. In fact, I think that most music is written with both in mind. Haydn certainly knew what he was doing. I like Gurn's particular example with his 42nd symphony (which I didn't know about). On the other hand, much of Boulez's later output seems to be concerned with both ends of the spectrum (it's easy to criticize Boulez in particular due to his vitriolic comments when he was younger, but I suspect that the younger Boulez wouldn't approve of the older Boulez!).
Ha! A chance to mention this quotation from Boulez I read in a comment of a review (http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R203R8J6GZMFD0/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00BLDHPZS&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=229816&store=music#wasThisHelpful) of the Boulez Complete Works box:

Quote from: A. Page[Boulez] came to give a composer's workshop at the Conservatoire I studied at. I was pleasantly surprised by him.
The first question to him (asked by me) was: " You have been quoted as saying that the idea of a great English composer is a genetic impossibility, are we wasting our time?"

Hilarity and applause ensued. " The only time you seem to be wasting" he replied " is in reading my old interviews."
That can be extrapolated to any of his old interviews, of course. 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 04:13:39 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0002/899/MI0002899650.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

These quartets from 1780 were long considered to be by Mozart and it´s not hard to understand the reason. They are utterly delightful. The charming but inappropriate cover is deceitful: this is music full of life and energy.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 26, 2015, 08:37:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 04:13:39 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0002/899/MI0002899650.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

These quartets from 1780 were long considered to be by Mozart and it´s not hard to understand the reason. They are utterly delightful. The charming but inappropriate cover is deceitful: this is music full of life and energy.  :D

Hi Andrei - that recording piqued my interest and found it offered from BRO for $8 - added some others from ZigZag & Tactus to get to a half dozen (shipping to me was then just a buck/CD) - thanks for the recommendation!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 08:41:41 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 26, 2015, 08:37:16 AM
Hi Andrei - that recording piqued my interest and found it offered from BRO for $8 - added some others from ZigZag & Tactus to get to a half dozen (shipping to me was then just a buck/CD) - thanks for the recommendation!  Dave :)

You´re welcome, it´s right up your alley!  :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 05, 2015, 11:05:09 AM
Major discovery alert !!!

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/143/MI0001143753.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is one of the best Easter oratorios I´ve ever heard. It sets to music the ubiquitous 18th-century-Metastasio-libretto that so many others have splendidly made use of... but this one is really in a league of its own. You can check it on Youtube before buying, but run, don´t walk!

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2015, 11:17:58 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2015, 11:05:09 AM
Major discovery alert !!!

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/143/MI0001143753.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is one of the best Easter oratorios I´ve ever heard. It sets to music the ubiquitous 18th-century-Metastasio-libretto that so many others have splendidly made use of... but this one is really in a league of its own. You can check it on Youtube before buying, but run, don´t walk!

Nice! Certainly worth checking out. The Metastasian Oratorio tradition was winding down by then, but clearly still not out of steam!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 06, 2015, 07:55:44 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2015, 11:05:09 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/143/MI0001143753.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is one of the best Easter oratorios I´ve ever heard. It sets to music the ubiquitous 18th-century-Metastasio-libretto that so many others have splendidly made use of... but this one is really in a league of its own. You can check it on Youtube before buying, but run, don´t walk!

Andrei - enjoyed your previous recommendation, and yesterday I listened to 2 Easter Oratorios (or is it Oratoriums or something else? ;)) - I looked for some more but could not locate any (probably did not look hard enough) - it is available from BRO for about $5, but not sure that I want to add 'fillers' I'll disliked (discarded a couple from my last order).

Now I own nothing by this composer - the 2 discs below w/ Robert Plano on piano look of interest and would be curious if others may know this pianist and these specific offerings - just  checked Spotify and both are available to stream - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e2RktZ3FL.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71JzE9cmGuL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 07, 2015, 02:00:25 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 06, 2015, 07:55:44 AM
Andrei - enjoyed your previous recommendation, and yesterday I listened to 2 Easter Oratorios (or is it Oratoriums or something else? ;)) - I looked for some more but could not locate any (probably did not look hard enough)

Hi, Dave! I´m glad you enjoyed the Schuster SQs. I knew you would.  :)

As for Easter oratorios (I think this is the correct plural form), they come in different sizes and shapes.

1. The ones called as such are few, the most famous being by Bach. There is another one by Carl Heinrich Graun (check it on Youtube) and to my knowledge that´s just about it.

2. The Passions, which follow closely the text of the Gospels and are called accordingly, for instance Johannes-Passion in German or Passio secundum Ioannem in Latin. Now these are much more numerous: Cipriano de Rore, Bach (3), Schuetz (3), Telemann (3), Haendel, Alessandro Scarlatti, Francesco Feo and many, many more. Youtube has many of them.

3. The Passion of Jesus Christ Our Lord (Italian La Passione di Gesu Cristo Signor Nostro).

Information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_passione_di_Ges%C3%B9_Cristo
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_passione_di_Ges%C3%B9_Cristo). Ditto Youtube.

4. Stabat Mater. Information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabat_Mater. There are lots of them on Youtube.

5. Responsories for Holy Week. Information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsories_for_Holy_Week (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsories_for_Holy_Week). Search on Youtube for Tenebrae Reponsories (or Responsoria) and they´ll retrieve an impressive line up of compositions.

6. Leçons de ténèbres. Information here: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le%C3%A7ons_de_t%C3%A9n%C3%A8bres). Youtube comes to be of service --- again.

7. Lamentations of Jeremiah the Prophet. Information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamentations_of_Jeremiah_the_Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamentations_of_Jeremiah_the_Prophet). You can find a lot of them searching Youtube for Hieremiae Prophetae Lamentationes or Lamentazioni di Geremia Profeta.

8. The Seven Last Words of Christ. Information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_settings_of_The_Seven_Last_Words_of_Christ. Many of them are on Youtube.

8. Oratorios (or technically assimilable to oratorios) with less common names, such as Roland de Lassus´s Lagrime di San Pietro, Dieterich Buxtehude´s Membra Jesu Nostri, Antonio Caldara´s Maddalena ai Piedi di Cristo or C. P. E. Bach´s Die letzten Leiden des Erlösers. Guess what? Well, yes. Youtube.

There. Hope this helps.


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 07, 2015, 07:39:59 AM
Thanks Andrei for all of the additional information - I order the oratorio CD last night - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2015, 05:32:24 AM
My diet today consisted of the following

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N%2BxsWo9cL._SY355_.jpg)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/015/MI0001015938.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

6, 7, 8 from this set(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/994/MI0000994286.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

and now playing

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/008/MI0001008058.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

In another thread "Only Mozart and Schubert, please!" was denounced as a limitation. Well, aside from the fact that it is less of a limitation than "Only (or mostly) Haydn, please!" (  ;D ), the sheer quantity and quality of music in all three cases warrants for a lifetime of enjoyment and discoveries. And finally, limiting oneself to only the finest and tastiest is not that bad a thing, meseems.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2015, 05:53:11 AM
Quote from: Florestan on April 27, 2015, 05:32:24 AM
My diet today consisted of the following

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N%2BxsWo9cL._SY355_.jpg)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/015/MI0001015938.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

6, 7, 8 from this set(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/994/MI0000994286.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

and now playing

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/008/MI0001008058.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

In another thread "Only Mozart and Schubert, please!" was denounced as a limitation. Well, aside from the fact that it is less of a limitation than "Only (or mostly) Haydn, please!" (  ;D ), the sheer quantity and quality of music in all three cases warrants for a lifetime of enjoyment and discoveries. And finally, limiting oneself to only the finest and tastiest is not that bad a thing, meseems.  :D

I will have to 'grab' that 'musik'... :)  Letzbor is a big favorite at my house. :)

Mozart and Schubert is certainly no limitation, unless you only listen to a certain genre of music. I do listen mainly to Haydn, Mozart and their contemporaries. H & M alone have an oeuvre of nearly 2000 pieces of music. I'll let you know as soon as I have them worn out....  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 11, 2015, 06:33:16 AM
Spent a very pleasant afternoon with Joseph Wolfl's music. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_W%C3%B6lfl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_W%C3%B6lfl)). Various works from the following discs:


(http://www.caromitis.com/images/catalogue/cm0022005cover.jpg) (http://www.caromitis.com/eng/catalogue/cm0022005.html)

(http://www.caromitis.com/images/catalogue/cm0032006cover.jpg) (http://www.caromitis.com/eng/catalogue/cm0032006.html)

Click images for detailed info & link to reviews and full booklet in English

(https://www.paladino.at/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/cds/pmr0023_geissenhof_frontcover.jpg?itok=-AvVpl80) (https://www.paladino.at/cds/w%C3%B6lfl-string-quartets)

Click image for detailed info and link to reviews (including a dismissing one by Brian).

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/190/MI0001190346.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Superb music and musicmaking on all of them, well worth exploring by any Classical period afficionado.



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on May 11, 2015, 06:47:35 AM
Got this new one the other day.  Satisfying on all counts.  Organizing principle is Parisian music before and after Le Grand Tumult.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/812sRgHKtuL._SX522_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IX583o9ML.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on May 11, 2015, 07:17:21 AM
I never thought I'd long for the days of placid cows in a bucolic setting for classical music covers ...

:D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on May 11, 2015, 07:28:17 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on May 11, 2015, 07:17:21 AM
I never thought I'd long for the days of placid cows in a bucolic setting for classical music covers ...

:D

English cow-pat is better than its reputation may suggest  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 11, 2015, 08:47:03 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 11, 2015, 06:33:16 AM
Spent a very pleasant afternoon with Joseph Wolfl's music. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_W%C3%B6lfl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_W%C3%B6lfl)). Various works from the following discs:

(http://www.caromitis.com/images/catalogue/cm0022005cover.jpg)  (http://www.caromitis.com/images/catalogue/cm0032006cover.jpg)  (https://www.paladino.at/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/cds/pmr0023_geissenhof_frontcover.jpg?itok=-AvVpl80)  (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/190/MI0001190346.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Superb music and musicmaking on all of them, well worth exploring by any Classical period afficionado.

Hi Andrei - another Wölfl fan - I've just over a half dozen discs of his music, including the 3 of 4 above - don't have the Op. 4 SQs w/ QM, but w/ the Authentic Quartet; also several recordings of his solo piano works, one w/ Nakamatsu & two others w/ Laure Colladant (one harp/KB duets) - cannot seem to find the QM disc on Amazon USA?  Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-QBNndjk/0/S/Wolfl_SQs-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-C93DgGK/0/S/Wolfl_PianoSonatas-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5FWvVVT/0/S/Woelfl_Vol2-S.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on July 10, 2015, 01:36:43 PM
Today, following the traces of a HIP band called "Accademia Hermans" (currently recording on Brilliant Classics), I did find this disk:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51BCUb0j5ZL._SS280.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Accademia-Hermans-Fabio-Ciofini/dp/B00BF90MLW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436563305&sr=8-1&keywords=accademia+hermans

Released by a small label (La Bottega Discantica), I figure out it won't be easy to get.

Anyway, it's available through Apple Music and Spotify... at least.  :)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on July 13, 2015, 02:57:36 PM
I believe this recent re-release is interesting enough to be noticed among the endless ocean of re-releases and repackings:

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5400439003576.jpg)

7 CDs
Ricercar, DDD, 2002-2007

Content:
+Gretry: Flötenkonzert C-Dur; Arien & Tanz-Divertissements aus Cephale et Procris; Les Deux Avares; Anacreon chez Polycrate; La Caravane du Caire
+Gossec: Symphonien op. 8 Nr. 1-3 & op. 12 Nr. 1, 3,5; Sinfonia concertante D-Dur; Sabinus-Ballettsuite
+Stamitz: Klarinettenkonzert B-Dur
+Kraus: Symphonie D-Dur (VB 143)
+Pieltain: Violinkonzert Nr. 3
+Gresnick: Sinfonia concertante B-Dur für Klarinette, Fagott, Orchester
+Lebrun: Oboenkonzert C-Dur
+Haydn: Symphonie Nr. 45, 82, 85, 86; Trompetenkonzert Es-Dur H7e: 1; Misera noi, misera Patria
+Beethoven: Symphonie Nr. 2
+Herold: Symphonie Nr. 2
+Arien von Salieri, Kreutzer, Gluck, Lemoye, JC Bach, Mehul, Herold, Spontini

Sophie Karthäuser, Jodie Devos, Jennifer Borghi, Eric Hoeprich, Les Agremens, Guy van Waas


Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 13, 2015, 04:08:11 PM
Quote from: Gordo on July 13, 2015, 02:57:36 PM
I believe this recent re-release is interesting enough to be noticed among the endless ocean of re-releases and repackings:

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5400439003576.jpg)

7 CDs
Ricercar, DDD, 2002-2007

Content:
+Gretry: Flötenkonzert C-Dur; Arien & Tanz-Divertissements aus Cephale et Procris; Les Deux Avares; Anacreon chez Polycrate; La Caravane du Caire
+Gossec: Symphonien op. 8 Nr. 1-3 & op. 12 Nr. 1, 3,5; Sinfonia concertante D-Dur; Sabinus-Ballettsuite
+Stamitz: Klarinettenkonzert B-Dur
+Kraus: Symphonie D-Dur (VB 143)
+Pieltain: Violinkonzert Nr. 3
+Gresnick: Sinfonia concertante B-Dur für Klarinette, Fagott, Orchester
+Lebrun: Oboenkonzert C-Dur
+Haydn: Symphonie Nr. 45, 82, 85, 86; Trompetenkonzert Es-Dur H7e: 1; Misera noi, misera Patria
+Beethoven: Symphonie Nr. 2
+Herold: Symphonie Nr. 2
+Arien von Salieri, Kreutzer, Gluck, Lemoye, JC Bach, Mehul, Herold, Spontini

Sophie Karthäuser, Jodie Devos, Jennifer Borghi, Eric Hoeprich, Les Agremens, Guy van Waas

Oh, yes indeed! I have 2 disks of the Haydn, which also contain the Kraus symphony and the LeBrun oboe concerto, and I can say they are very fine indeed. The other 2 Haydn works alone would make it a great buy for me, not to mention all the other rarely recorded items in there!  Thanks for pointing this out, Gordo!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on July 13, 2015, 05:10:42 PM
Hey everybody: I'm curious how many classical-era symphonies BEGIN with a funeral march?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 13, 2015, 05:23:00 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 13, 2015, 05:10:42 PM
Hey everybody: I'm curious how many classical-era symphonies BEGIN with a funeral march?

I don't pretend to have an answer, Brian, although I might be able to dig something up. AFAIK, it's pretty much a French thing, whether at the beginning or elsewhere. The current belief that Beethoven modeled his violin concerto and 3rd symphony on French models (they are nearly contemporaneous), seems to me to be buttressed by his Marche Funèbre, albeit in the second movement. In the first half of the 19th century, music of all genres is replete with funeral marches. Echoing life, I suppose. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on July 13, 2015, 05:41:44 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 13, 2015, 05:23:00 PM
I don't pretend to have an answer, Brian, although I might be able to dig something up. AFAIK, it's pretty much a French thing, whether at the beginning or elsewhere. The current belief that Beethoven modeled his violin concerto and 3rd symphony on French models (they are nearly contemporaneous), seems to me to be buttressed by his Marche Funèbre, albeit in the second movement. In the first half of the 19th century, music of all genres is replete with funeral marches. Echoing life, I suppose. :)

8)
Yes indeed! It was a time of many funerals across Europe.  :-X I just listened to Kalliwoda's Fourth Symphony, which has a first-movement funeral march (of sorts...), and got curious.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 13, 2015, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 13, 2015, 05:41:44 PM
Yes indeed! It was a time of many funerals across Europe.  :-X I just listened to Kalliwoda's Fourth Symphony, which has a first-movement funeral march (of sorts...), and got curious.

I think Mèhul had one, may have been the first I heard. It seems to mark the beginning of Romanticism, I don't think you can legitimately call it a 'Classic' concept. Look at Berlioz' oeuvre for a couple of examples. I'll do some research, I might have a book which will touch on it a bit. Frankly, it isn't something I have given a lot of thought about, given that the 2nd movement of Eroica is my least favorite.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on July 20, 2015, 10:13:11 AM
This feels like just the sort of frequently asked question that perhaps there is a page on the Interwebs you can point me to . . . I find myself suddenly curious about the "Mozart 37th Symphony."  What do we know about it?  OtToMH I seem to remember that the symphony itself is actually Michael Haydn's, and Mozart wrote a slow introduction to the first movement?  Is that much right?  TIA
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 11:02:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 20, 2015, 10:13:11 AM
This feels like just the sort of frequently asked question that perhaps there is a page on the Interwebs you can point me to . . . I find myself suddenly curious about the "Mozart 37th Symphony."  What do we know about it?  OtToMH I seem to remember that the symphony itself is actually Michael Haydn's, and Mozart wrote a slow introduction to the first movement?  Is that much right?  TIA

Yes, that's essentially correct. The only recording I have (there may be thousands though) is in the AAM/Hogwood Complete Mozart Symphonies box. I'll check my Zaslaw tonight for more details if there are any to add.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: starrynight on July 22, 2015, 01:44:16 AM
I think it's something Mozart just jotted off quickly, nothing like the standard of the slow introductions of the symphonies around it.  Slow introductions must have been a fashion of the time though, and it's shows Mozart in a good light as being willing to help out his friend.  He helped by passing off his violin duos to Michael Haydn as well.  That was even more generous not just in quantity of music but quality.  Then again making it sound too good might make it more obvious they weren't by Michael Haydn.  It's interesting as well in connection to Mozart's relation with the Haydns in general and how he must have felt both close to them and maybe feeling indebted to them in some way (my speculation).

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: revdrdave on July 22, 2015, 05:02:30 AM
I have a basic question, re: Mozart's so-called 37th symphony... If all Mozart wrote of it was a slow introduction, how did it come to be considered his 37th symphony? Was there a point in time when it was accepted that the entire piece was by Mozart?

I suppose this actually raises a bigger question for me: did Mozart ever catalog his symphonies (perhaps as part of a larger effort in cataloging all his compositions) such that he referred say, to no. 40 as "no. 40" or was it just "my G minor symphony" or "my latest symphony in G minor"? Did he, in other words, ever assign numbers to his symphonies? If he did, it raises (for me at least) the further question of how he'd have skipped from 36 to 38.

Maybe this is a better topic for the Mozart composer thread...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2015, 05:22:18 AM
The first catalogue of Mozart's works was compiled by Ludwig Alois Friedrich Ritter von Köchel, an Austrian musicologist, writer, composer, botanist and publisher; he published his catalogue in 1862 (so already more than half a century after the composer's demise).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6chel_catalogue
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: revdrdave on July 22, 2015, 05:31:27 AM
Yes, I know about Kochel...I was wondering more about Mozart himself... Any idea if he catalogued his works and/or numbered his symphonies?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Cato on July 22, 2015, 05:39:00 AM
Quote from: starrynight on July 22, 2015, 01:44:16 AM
I think it's something Mozart just jotted off quickly, nothing like the standard of the slow introductions of the symphonies around it...

If so, that is some opening theme to "jot off" !  Of course, we are talking about Mozart the Music Machine!  0:)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 06:05:28 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on July 22, 2015, 05:02:30 AM
I have a basic question, re: Mozart's so-called 37th symphony... If all Mozart wrote of it was a slow introduction, how did it come to be considered his 37th symphony? Was there a point in time when it was accepted that the entire piece was by Mozart?

Well yes, it was at one time attributed to Mozart. He had a copy of it, and the intro was in his handwriting. Probably everyone believed it was his. It was worth more, of course, with him now being dead and all.

QuoteI suppose this actually raises a bigger question for me: did Mozart ever catalog his symphonies (perhaps as part of a larger effort in cataloging all his compositions) such that he referred say, to no. 40 as "no. 40" or was it just "my G minor symphony" or "my latest symphony in G minor"? Did he, in other words, ever assign numbers to his symphonies? If he did, it raises (for me at least) the further question of how he'd have skipped from 36 to 38.

Maybe this is a better topic for the Mozart composer thread...

No, he never did that. After he moved to Vienna, in 1784 actually (he moved in 1781), he began keeping a book with compositions as he completed them. He would write the date and then like the first 8 bars of the part which had the most recognizable theme. Not everything made it into the book, but most things did. This is a huge help in dating late works. Before then, it is still hit and miss.

I have never heard any composer from the classic era refer to his symphonies in any sort of numeric way, or in any definitive way at all. Haydn always refers to his 'Paris' symphonies as his 'recent set of six', you are expected to know by the date what he is talking about. Mozart does write to Leopold and refer to 'the symphony I wrote for Haffner' or 'the one I wrote for Paris', but that's about it. At that time, the idea of a canonic sort of enumeration of works simply didn't exist, and so there is no hope of anything so nicely referential!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: revdrdave on July 22, 2015, 06:15:50 AM
Your response is so helpful, Gurn--thanks very much!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: starrynight on July 22, 2015, 06:18:04 AM
He kept some kind of book, from what I remember it had the years of the future listed as well, up to or beyond 1800, so he was looking to compose much more.  After his death there was some edition being prepared I think and his widow tried to vet the publisher trying to pass off other people's works as his.  But obviously more investigation was needed on some works.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 06:48:12 AM
Quote from: starrynight on July 22, 2015, 06:18:04 AM
He kept some kind of book, from what I remember it had the years of the future listed as well, up to or beyond 1800, so he was looking to compose much more.  After his death there was some edition being prepared I think and his widow tried to vet the publisher trying to pass off other people's works as his.  But obviously more investigation was needed on some works.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. He wrote on the cover or the inside flyleaf '1784 - 18__', so clearly the death was a surprise for him.

Constanze did indeed try to make as much as she could from the sale of his music. He didn't leave her anything else but children. She probably couldn't get a good price for them. :D  People passing off other works as those of a famous name was standard procedure in those days.   :(

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 06:48:52 AM
Quote from: revdrdave on July 22, 2015, 06:15:50 AM
Your response is so helpful, Gurn--thanks very much!

My pleasure Dave. Glad you are interested!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on September 25, 2015, 04:22:05 AM
George Frederick Pinto : potentially the English Mozart (https://musicakaleidoscope.wordpress.com/2015/09/25/george-frederick-pinto-potentially-the-english-mozart/)

(https://musicakaleidoscope.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/cropped-mk2.png)

As a musician he excited an extraordinary degree of admiration from well-qualified critics. Samuel Wesley said that 'a greater musical Genius has not been known'; Salomon remarked that 'if he had lived and been able to resist the allurements of society, England would have had the honour of producing a second Mozart'; J.B. Cramer, William Ayrton and others joined the chorus of enthusiasm. The chief source of their admiration seems to have been Pinto's compositions. Yet within a few years of his death, his name was almost forgotten by the public.

(https://musicakaleidoscope.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/george-frederick-pinto1.jpg?w=251&h=300)

(https://musicakaleidoscope.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/mk2-e1442935996117.jpg?w=50)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: North Star on September 25, 2015, 04:26:42 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on September 25, 2015, 04:22:05 AMSalomon remarked that 'if he had lived and been able to resist the allurements of society, England would have had the honour of producing a second Mozart'

Thomas Linley was of course the first Mozart England produced.  ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on September 25, 2015, 04:29:47 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 25, 2015, 04:26:42 AM
Thomas Linley was of course the first Mozart England produced.  ;)

;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 30, 2015, 02:19:23 AM
I´ve started to listen to all of Mozart´s violin sonatas in chronological order, from this set:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/798/MI0003798146.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I am simply amazed at the high quality of the childhood sonatas. The relentless rythmic drive of the introductory allegros, the brooding, melancholy adagios and the bitter-sweet minuets/trios --- it boggles the mind that a child of 6 or 8 or 10 could have written such gorgeous music.

Needless to say, the musicmaking of Podger and Cooper is just perfectly suitable for these works. This is a desert island box.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2015, 04:11:35 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 30, 2015, 02:19:23 AM
I´ve started to listen to all of Mozart´s violin sonatas in chronological order, from this set:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/798/MI0003798146.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I am simply amazed at the high quality of the childhood sonatas. The relentless rythmic drive of the introductory allegros, the brooding, melancholy adagios and the bitter-sweet minuets/trios --- it boggles the mind that a child of 6 or 8 or 10 could have written such gorgeous music.

Needless to say, the musicmaking of Podger and Cooper is just perfectly suitable for these works. This is a desert island box.

I have that set on my wish list now, have been looking forward to it since the singles started coming out, 2 fine artists there! That's an interesting thing about Mozart; even his juvenilia sounds equal to the adult efforts of many of his contemporaries. He sort of skipped over a few stages in development, it seems!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 30, 2015, 04:19:13 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2015, 04:11:35 AM
That's an interesting thing about Mozart; even his juvenilia sounds equal to the adult efforts of many of his contemporaries. He sort of skipped over a few stages in development, it seems!  :)

There is no doubt he was the greatest musical child prodigy that ever lived, period. KV 6-15 and 26-31 are a glorious testimony to that.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 30, 2015, 09:21:49 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 30, 2015, 02:19:23 AM
I´ve started to listen to all of Mozart´s violin sonatas in chronological order, from this set:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/798/MI0003798146.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I am simply amazed at the high quality of the childhood sonatas. The relentless rythmic drive of the introductory allegros, the brooding, melancholy adagios and the bitter-sweet minuets/trios --- it boggles the mind that a child of 6 or 8 or 10 could have written such gorgeous music.

Needless to say, the musicmaking of Podger and Cooper is just perfectly suitable for these works. This is a desert island box.

Hi Andrei - a recent acquisition for me also and have listened to the box several times now - have to completely agree w/ your comments - I own a number of recordings of the 'mature' works but those lower Köchel numbers are just as enjoyable! Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2015, 11:56:43 AM
Cross-post from the WAYLT thread.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/130/MI0001130010.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is probably the best complete set of Mozart´s music for violin and orchestra ever recorded --- to these ears at least. Its only competition (admittedly a fierce one) is from Henryk Szeryng, which definitely has the advantage of including the Sinfonia Concertante, the Concertone and the Concerto for Violin, Piano and Orchestra, but in terms of musicianship and musicmaking Leertouwer and his band are superb. They play HIP but not HIP-ish and the result is absolutely fantastic. Recorded in SOTA sound, this is a peach of a winner. I can´t praise and recommend it highly enough.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2015, 12:38:19 PM
Well, I'll have a go at it. Should be here Monday, my first new CD in over 2 months, so you have a lot of responsibility going here, Florestan.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on October 09, 2015, 12:52:48 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2015, 12:38:19 PM
Well, I'll have a go at it. Should be here Monday, my first new CD in over 2 months, so you have a lot of responsibility going here, Florestan.... :D

8)

It´s Mozart, it´s HIP and it´s great --- should be right up your alley.  0:)

Do report, please.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2015, 12:57:26 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2015, 12:52:48 PM
It´s Mozart, it´s HIP and it´s great --- should be right up your alley.  0:)

Do report, please.

Actually, I know of Leertouwer, I have him playing some Schubert with a very good fortepianist named Julian Reynolds. It was the chance to hear him in orchestral music which intrigued me. He really has a great sound!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 10, 2015, 08:56:01 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 09, 2015, 11:56:43 AM
Cross-post from the WAYLT thread.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/130/MI0001130010.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is probably the best complete set of Mozart´s music for violin and orchestra ever recorded --- to these ears at least. Its only competition (admittedly a fierce one) is from Henryk Szeryng, which definitely has the advantage of including the Sinfonia Concertante, the Concertone and the Concerto for Violin, Piano and Orchestra, but in terms of musicianship and musicmaking Leertouwer and his band are superb. They play HIP but not HIP-ish and the result is absolutely fantastic. Recorded in SOTA sound, this is a peach of a winner. I can´t praise and recommend it highly enough.

Hi Andrei - thanks for the recommendation, just put in an Amazon Prime order (and had some bonus money to reduce the price in half) for the Leertouwer discs - like Gurn should be at my doorstep on Monday!  Also, found a 3-CD 'used' set of the Henryk Szeryng Mozart concerto recordings (have him in the Mozart sonatas).

At the moment, I have 3 sets of Wolfie's violin concertos (Julia Fischer & Yakov Kreizberg, 2005-07; 3 CDs + 1 DVD; Giuliano Carmignola & Claudio Abbado, 2007, and Arthur Grumiaux w/ Davis & Leppard, 1960s) - like the Fischer (despite some negative reviews here & there) - also like Carmignola; the sound on some of the Grumiaux recordings from that era distract from my enjoyment, so likely will cull him out.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on October 13, 2015, 12:25:23 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 12, 2015, 08:13:12 AM
Mozart, WA - Violin Concertos w/ Johannes Leertouwer and his PI group, La Borea Amsterdam - he performs on a 1691 Amati violin w/ gut strings; thick booklet w/ beginning notes by him, and then more extended discussion on the works by Clemens Kemme - excellent recorded sound (performances from 2005/6) - recommended by Andrei, I believe in Gurn's classical thread.  Dave :)

(https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-qmKBXwd/0/O/Mozart_ViolinConcs_Leertouwer.jpg)  (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w6NDfW5Mp2o/maxresdefault.jpg)

How do you like it, Dave? I hope you won´t ask me for a refund.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 13, 2015, 12:28:25 AM
I still haven't heard any recording which I prefer over Australian Chamber Orchestra's Mozart VC recordings on BIS.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 13, 2015, 04:44:13 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 13, 2015, 12:25:23 AM
How do you like it, Dave? I hope you won´t ask me for a refund.  :D

Hi Andrei - really enjoy the PI set and like Leertouwer's fiddle - thanks for the recommendation!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2015, 05:54:34 PM
Quote from: Florestan on October 13, 2015, 12:25:23 AM
How do you like it, Dave? I hope you won´t ask me for a refund.  :D

Just listening to Disk 2 for the first time (holding disk 1 in abeyance for now), must say, the tone of his instrument is wonderful! He tosses off #4 & 5 with ease, using a tastefully ornamented style, just what you would like to hear in these works. I like the accompaniment by La Borea, too. They articulate well, not running things together, which is as it should be with works from the early 1770's, when legato was an ornament instead of a lifestyle. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 24, 2015, 10:30:19 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2015, 05:54:34 PM
...when legato was an ornament instead of a lifestyle. :)

The problem lies within the late 19th-early 20th century of Mozart editions. Saint-Saens's words from his Mozart edition:
"One is accustomed to modern editions that indicate constantly legato, molto legato and sempre legato. There is nothing of this in the manuscripts and old editions. Everything leads us to believe that this music should be performed lightly, that passages should produce an effect as if giving a separate bow stroke to each note without leaving the string. When Mozart wished a legato, he indicated it"

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2015, 10:46:46 AM
Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 24, 2015, 10:30:19 AM
The problem lies within the late 19th-early 20th century of Mozart editions. Saint-Saens's words from his Mozart edition:
"One is accustomed to modern editions that indicate constantly legato, molto legato and sempre legato. There is nothing of this in the manuscripts and old editions. Everything leads us to believe that this music should be performed lightly, that passages should produce an effect as if giving a separate bow stroke to each note without leaving the string. When Mozart wished a legato, he indicated it"

That's a nice quote, I like it!

I think a lot of the 19th century's thoughts on playing 18th century works stem from ideas like the one Beethoven expressed to (Ries? Czerny?) where he was talking about having heard Mozart play when he was younger (probably Vienna in 1787), and he found it to be quite "choppy". My own thoughts on this are that this is because Mozart learned to play on a harpsichord rather than a piano, and the notes sound detached by the nature of the instrument. Way down inside, there must be an element of rightness to that sound. Unlike with a piano where 'perfect' legato was possible. The rise of legato playing styles and the rise in availability of the fortepiano are surely no coincidence.

There are a few fortepianist who play Mozart in a more detached manner, which I, personally, quite enjoy. One is Ludwig Sémerjian. I suppose it isn't for everyone... :)


8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 25, 2015, 03:09:22 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2015, 10:46:46 AM
That's a nice quote, I like it!

I think a lot of the 19th century's thoughts on playing 18th century works stem from ideas like the one Beethoven expressed to (Ries? Czerny?) where he was talking about having heard Mozart play when he was younger (probably Vienna in 1787), and he found it to be quite "choppy". My own thoughts on this are that this is because Mozart learned to play on a harpsichord rather than a piano, and the notes sound detached by the nature of the instrument. Way down inside, there must be an element of rightness to that sound. Unlike with a piano where 'perfect' legato was possible. The rise of legato playing styles and the rise in availability of the fortepiano are surely no coincidence.

There are a few fortepianist who play Mozart in a more detached manner, which I, personally, quite enjoy. One is Ludwig Sémerjian. I suppose it isn't for everyone... :)


8)

It is only reasonable to think that they composed under the influence of the reactions they get from their instruments of the time.

Perahia's understanding is enough to satisfy me for modern.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2015, 07:07:36 AM
Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 25, 2015, 03:09:22 AM
It is only reasonable to think that they composed under the influence of the reactions they get from their instruments of the time.

Perahia's understanding is enough to satisfy me for modern.

i didn't say composed, I said played in a certain way. But yes it IS only reasonable to suppose they composed for the instruments they had available.

The important thing is that you find an interpretation which satisfies what you want to get from your music listening. The music is so much more important than the performer. Of course, a new joueur de la journée is what keeps the recording business going. Have to hand it to Perahia, he has confounded them!   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Pretorious on November 06, 2015, 11:20:06 AM
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571281049.png)

Looks like Hyperion will be releasing the next volume in the Classical Piano Concerto series at the end of the year. Listening to the previews is making me very excited for this one, as I was a big fan of the first volume with a selection of Dussek's piano concertos. I was hoping they would continue with more of his works but this one looks equally pleasant.

I'll be purchasing this one upon release and will review it as soon as I can.

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68104 (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68104)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brahmsian on November 06, 2015, 01:19:21 PM
Quote from: esMussSein on November 06, 2015, 11:20:06 AM
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571281049.png)

Looks like Hyperion will be releasing the next volume in the Classical Piano Concerto series at the end of the year. Listening to the previews is making me very excited for this one, as I was a big fan of the first volume with a selection of Dussek's piano concertos. I was hoping they would continue with more of his works but this one looks equally pleasant.

I'll be purchasing this one upon release and will review it as soon as I can.

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68104 (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68104)

Dino, this is quite interesting to me.  In terms of a Classical Piano Concerto series, by Hyperion.  I am quite familiar that they had/have a Romantic Piano Concerto series, but had no idea they had embarked on a similar series, for the Classical Era.  Very cool indeed!  :) 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Pretorious on November 09, 2015, 07:01:48 AM
Indeed! Yes, Hyperion kind of slipped this series in under the radar; they still don't have a separate section for it on their website like they do for their other series. Check out the first volume on Amazon, where you can also read my review on it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on November 10, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mkE7HLseL._AA160_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Kjqc8pO2L._AA160_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ib-TCNmrL._AA160_.jpg)

This is... miraculous! I don´t find any better word to describe it. If Arriaga was the Spanish Mozart, then Blasco de de Nebra was the Spanish Schubert, although he died (at 34) 13 full years before Franz was born.

Most of the sonatas are in two parts: a long, introspective Adagio (and it is exactly these movements that have an almost disturbing Schubertian mood: the same feeling of the time being suspended, the same tranquil yet poignant melancholy and above all the same ability to make major keys sound minor) and light-hearted but not light Allegro, exuberant and bursting with twists and turns of Spanish rythms and guitar-like effects.

At first I thought it was going to be some pleasant background music but very soon I quit doing anything else: the music gripped me by the throat heart and I could not do anything else but listen in awe.

The young Spanish pianist Pedro Casals (no kinship with Pablo) plays with sensitivity and delicacy in the slow movements and with fire and passion in the fast ones. It is aurally obvious that these recordings are a work of love (his Musicology doctoral thesis is devoted to Blasco de Nebra´s work). The sound is SOTA.

Make no mistake, Blasco de Nebra is one of the best keyboard composers one has never heard of. I can´t recommend and praise this series highly enough.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 10, 2015, 03:00:54 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 10, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mkE7HLseL._AA160_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Kjqc8pO2L._AA160_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ib-TCNmrL._AA160_.jpg)

This is... miraculous! I don´t find any better word to describe it. If Arriaga was the Spanish Mozart, then Blasco de de Nebra was the Spanish Schubert, although he died (at 34) 13 full years before Franz was born.

Most of the sonatas are in two parts: a long, introspective Adagio (and it is exactly these movements that have an almost disturbing Schubertian mood: the same feeling of the time being suspended, the same tranquil yet poignant melancholy and above all the same ability to make major keys sound minor) and light-hearted but not light Allegro, exuberant and bursting with twists and turns of Spanish rythms and guitar-like effects.

At first I thought it was going to be some pleasant background music but very soon I quit doing anything else: the music gripped me by the throat heart and I could not do anything else but listen in awe.

The young Spanish pianist Pedro Casals (no kinship with Pablo) plays with sensitivity and delicacy in the slow movements and with fire and passion in the fast ones. It is aurally obvious that these recordings are a work of love (his Musicology doctoral thesis is devoted to Blasco de Nebra´s work). The sound is SOTA.

Make no mistake, Blasco de Nebra is one of the best keyboard composers one has never heard of. I can´t recommend and praise this series highly enough.
Looks good. Wishlisted.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 17, 2015, 08:39:46 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 10, 2015, 02:59:22 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mkE7HLseL._AA160_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Kjqc8pO2L._AA160_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ib-TCNmrL._AA160_.jpg)

The young Spanish pianist Pedro Casals (no kinship with Pablo) plays with sensitivity and delicacy in the slow movements and with fire and passion in the fast ones. It is aurally obvious that these recordings are a work of love (his Musicology doctoral thesis is devoted to Blasco de Nebra´s work). The sound is SOTA.

Make no mistake, Blasco de Nebra is one of the best keyboard composers one has never heard of. I can´t recommend and praise this series highly enough.

Hi Andrei - I've own the CD below for a while, i.e. w/ Carole Cerasi on harpsichord & fortepiano - believe that is the only disc of his works she recorded, and not on a modern piano (assume what Casals used?) - will need to obtain at least one of those Naxos' recordings!  Dave :)

(https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-442xH7N/0/O/Nebra_Cerasi.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 17, 2015, 08:56:35 AM
Just left a post in the listening thread, partially quoted below w/ a pic of the clarinet maker added:

Although labeled as Clarinet Quartets, the K numbers given in the liner notes match the works below (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6chel_catalogue)) - so, these appear to be transcriptions published after Mozart's death by the editor Andre - suggested again in the booklet that he and possibly Anton Stadler transformed them into clarinet quartets.

The two clarinets (shown on the front cover art) used by Jean-Claude Veilhan were made by Andreas Schöni (his Website (http://www.schoenibern.ch)) - the performances were recorded in 1994 and are really enjoyable w/ great sound - if you're into Wolfie transcriptions and love this period instrument, then a strong recommendation.  I purchased as a 'used' copy for about $3 (plus the usually $4 S/H) off the Amazon MP - arrived today.  Dave :)

Quote380   374f    Violin Sonata No. 28 in E-flat   
378   317d    Violin Sonata No. 26 in B-flat
496   496    Piano Trio No. 2 in G


QuoteMozart, WA - Clarinet Quartets w/ Jean-Claude Veilhan on two period clarinets & Trio Stadler - these seem to be transcriptions of two Violin Sonatas & a Piano Trio - will discuss further in Gurn's classical thread, for those interested.  Dave :)

(https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-LxDqFsC/0/O/Mozart_ClarinetVeilhan.jpg)  (http://www.schoenibern.ch/site/assets/files/1/p4050067-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2015, 10:13:57 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 17, 2015, 08:56:35 AM
Just left a post in the listening thread, partially quoted below w/ a pic of the clarinet maker added:

Although labeled as Clarinet Quartets, the K numbers given in the liner notes match the works below (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6chel_catalogue)) - so, these appear to be transcriptions published after Mozart's death by the editor Andre - suggested again in the booklet that he and possibly Anton Stadler transformed them into clarinet quartets.

The two clarinets (shown on the front cover art) used by Jean-Claude Veilhan were made by Andreas Schöni (his Website (http://www.schoenibern.ch)) - the performances were recorded in 1994 and are really enjoyable w/ great sound - if you're into Wolfie transcriptions and love this period instrument, then a strong recommendation.  I purchased as a 'used' copy for about $3 (plus the usually $4 S/H) off the Amazon MP - arrived today.  Dave :)


Dave,

I believe a total of 6 violin sonatas were arranged for clarinet quartet, I have them, but by a great variety of different performers. The music itself is robust enough to withstand this sort of expansion, and they sound just fine, as though they were written this way. For those who are a bit timid about transcriptions, don't worry about these, I think you will quite enjoy them!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
Point of clarification: By clarinet quartet, we mean clarinet plus string trio, yes?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2015, 10:33:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
Point of clarification: By clarinet quartet, we mean clarinet plus string trio, yes?

Yes. Standard issue at the time.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 17, 2015, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
Point of clarification: By clarinet quartet, we mean clarinet plus string trio, yes?

Karl - yes, as Gurn indicated; the Trio Stadler is a string group - and some excellent clarinet writing!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2015, 10:13:57 AM

I believe a total of 6 violin sonatas were arranged for clarinet quartet, I have them, but by a great variety of different performers. The music itself is robust enough to withstand this sort of expansion, and they sound just fine, as though they were written this way. For those who are a bit timid about transcriptions, don't worry about these, I think you will quite enjoy them!

Gurn - well, my first experience in hearing these clarinet transcriptions; curious by your comment that there were 6 of these arrangements - looked on Amazon and found the ones shown below:  1) Naxos - 2 works - same as on the Veilhan; 2) United Classics - same 3; 3) Signum - same w/ different K numbers; 4) NCA - same 3; and 5) Meridian - same 3 - covered 12 pages on Amazon and found these 5 recordings which all have the same works as on the Veilhan CD - do you have any recommendations for the other three clarinet quartet transcriptions?  Probably OOP and/or super $$ on the Amazon MP - thanks for any information.  Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uBPAZQjyL.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61K5JwAtiJL.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F9Ll6b%2B2L._SL500_.jpg) 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71IYSO2iJbL._SX522_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RM6IPvyJL._SS280.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on November 17, 2015, 11:50:37 AM
The United Classics and the NCA seem different issues of the same recording (I have the NCA). While I am not positively aware of more such arrangements, all imaginable kinds of arrangements abound in the classical and early romantic era and I would not be surprised if someone like Dieter Kloecker had unearthed another bunch of simular works. (I also played some movements from those Mozart violin sonatas as clarinet duets with my teacher many years ago, but these were probably even later arrangements for private and teaching purposes)

There are Haydn string quartets arranged for "clarinet quartet" by Gambaro who even re-grouped movements from different quartets into those works (Kloecker recorded them for MDG), e.g. a B flat major quartet starts with the first mvmt from the "sunrise" quartet op.76/4 but the following movements are taken from other earlier Haydn quartets!

I might get this at some stage but when I considered it some time ago I was torn between fascination and repulsion...

If you like the clarinet, there are more pieces for such a line-up by Rosetti, Danzi and others. The most famous ones are somewhat later pieces by Bernhard Henrik Crusell from the early 19th century. (I just learned that Crusell was Finnish I had always filed him as Swedish...)

Not with clarinet but I should probably link to my post in another thread on Richter's early classical (ca. 1757-1768) string quartets:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13574.msg931933.html#new (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13574.msg931933.html#new)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on November 22, 2015, 07:23:15 PM
I presume Reicha makes it into this thread.
[asin]B014VP0HGG[/asin]
New release by a new PI chamber ensemble.
Sounds encouraging.
Works recorded are the Quintets in G and BFlat, Op. 88/3 and Op. 100/6, with an Adagio for cor anglais [and other wind instruments]  in between.
The recording is described as part of a prize won at the 2013 York(England) International Early Music Young Artists competition.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2015, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 22, 2015, 07:23:15 PM
I presume Reicha makes it into this thread.
[asin]B014VP0HGG[/asin]
New release by a new PI chamber ensemble.
Sounds encouraging.
Works recorded are the Quintets in G and BFlat, Op. 88/3 and Op. 100/6, with an Adagio for cor anglais [and other wind instruments]  in between.
The recording is described as part of a prize won at the 2013 York(England) International Early Music Young Artists competition.

Absolutely! We want it. Thanks for the notice, Jeffrey.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Pretorious on November 23, 2015, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 22, 2015, 07:23:15 PM
I presume Reicha makes it into this thread.
[asin]B014VP0HGG[/asin]
New release by a new PI chamber ensemble.
Sounds encouraging.
Works recorded are the Quintets in G and BFlat, Op. 88/3 and Op. 100/6, with an Adagio for cor anglais [and other wind instruments]  in between.
The recording is described as part of a prize won at the 2013 York(England) International Early Music Young Artists competition.

Looks very interesting! Beautiful painting too. Anyone know the artist? I've found a lot of great art this way, as well.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 23, 2015, 11:15:35 AM
Quote from: esMussSein on November 23, 2015, 08:58:41 AM
Looks very interesting! Beautiful painting too. Anyone know the artist? I've found a lot of great art this way, as well.

Cover image: View of the Seine in Paris (1820) by Giuseppe Canella (1788–1847) By permission of Bridgeman Images (Source (http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-reicha-wind-quintets.aspx)).

Just spent a week 'on and off' listening to the 10-CD box shown below - would enjoy listening to that new recording - Dave :)

(https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Vz4nDxf/0/O/Reicha_Wind_AS.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Pretorious on November 24, 2015, 07:32:29 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 23, 2015, 11:15:35 AM
Cover image: View of the Seine in Paris (1820) by Giuseppe Canella (1788–1847) By permission of Bridgeman Images (Source (http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-reicha-wind-quintets.aspx)).

Just spent a week 'on and off' listening to the 10-CD box shown below - would enjoy listening to that new recording - Dave :)

(https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Vz4nDxf/0/O/Reicha_Wind_AS.jpg)

Oh excellent, thank you SonicMan, much obliged! That set from CPO is terrific, too. I've been meaning to go back and listen to many of those works as they are very enjoyable and rewarding.

There is a set of his string quartets currently being recorded and they too are of high interest. Check them out if you haven't already; very good stuff, and very much neglected.

[asin]B00CLFYWCO[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 24, 2015, 09:44:32 AM
Quote from: esMussSein on November 24, 2015, 07:32:29 AM
Oh excellent, thank you SonicMan, much obliged! That set from CPO is terrific, too. I've been meaning to go back and listen to many of those works as they are very enjoyable and rewarding.

There is a set of his string quartets currently being recorded and they too are of high interest. Check them out if you haven't already; very good stuff, and very much neglected.

Yes - I've seen those 2 'Toccata' CDs of Reicha's String Quartets on Amazon USA but have not purchased yet - I have a quite a bit of his chamber works, so probably should add those two - :)  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 05:44:00 AM
After spending so much time the past few days discovering Malcolm Arnold, and blasting out Schumann into my backyard as I battled with the shrubbery, I'm kicking back on this soon-to-be-rainy Sunday morning with some of Mozart's works of genius:  K.547 & K.526

(http://s11.postimage.org/ymn4qj183/MOZART_Violin_Sonatas_Shumsky_Balsam_LPbox.jpg)

0:)


(plug ->  http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20177.0.html)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 05:50:39 AM
No activity on this thread since November last year? God, the world is going madder and madder every day!  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner - Sunday morning fare
Post by: Scion7 on May 08, 2016, 07:46:45 AM
Since I was too lazy to get me bum to church:

(http://s32.postimg.org/pmkm6i2v9/Back_Lv_B_Oboes_English_Horn.jpg) (http://s32.postimg.org/fghzndmo5/Front_Lv_B_Oboes_English_Horn.jpg)

Beethoven seems to have been in a very happy mood composing Op.87!   :)
Absolutely brilliant music, recorded in 1977.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 14, 2016, 03:59:54 AM
Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread where it´ll soon be buried.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/166/MI0003166726.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Kyrie in F major KV 33 (1766)

Only the pure heart of a child can supplicate God in such a jocund manner. Haydn would have been delighted to hear it.

Same work, different performance

(http://muzant.pl/zdiecia/CMlitaniesvespers.jpg)

Dagmar Schellenberger-Ernst (Soprano), Michael-Christfried Winkler (Organ), Herbert Kegel (Conductor)
Leipzig Radio Chorus
Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra

Now I am really confused. Kegel´s version is much slower (3:45) and reverential than Harnoncourt´s (1:38). The differences are striking, it´s as if you´re listening to two different pieces. Who is right? Musically and psychologically my preference goes to Harnoncourt, but is he historically accurate?

EDIT: I see the score is marked Larghetto but Harnconcourt sounds more like Andantino... I think both versions are very good and work equally well, but my romantic self has a soft spot for Harnoncourt.  :)

Oh, and btw: why is there a metronome marking in the score? Who came up with it? Certainly not Wolfferl neither Leopold.  ???

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2016, 05:03:44 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2016, 03:59:54 AM
Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread where it´ll soon be buried.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/166/MI0003166726.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Kyrie in F major KV 33 (1766)

Only the pure heart of a child can supplicate God in such a jocund manner. Haydn would have been delighted to hear it.

Same work, different performance

(http://muzant.pl/zdiecia/CMlitaniesvespers.jpg)

Dagmar Schellenberger-Ernst (Soprano), Michael-Christfried Winkler (Organ), Herbert Kegel (Conductor)
Leipzig Radio Chorus
Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra

Now I am really confused. Kegel´s version is much slower (3:45) and reverential than Harnoncourt´s (1:38). The differences are striking, it´s as if you´re listening to two different pieces. Who is right? Musically and psychologically my preference goes to Harnoncourt, but is he historically accurate?

EDIT: I see the score is marked Larghetto but Harnconcourt sounds more like Andantino... I think both versions are very good and work equally well, but my romantic self has a soft spot for Harnoncourt.  :)

Oh, and btw: why is there a metronome marking in the score? Who came up with it? Certainly not Wolfferl neither Leopold.  ???

I am also very fond of the Harnoncourt version. For masses written in Salzburg post 1772, swifter is likely more accurate also, since the Archbishop decreed that an entire mass, music included, couldn't last longer than (45 minutes? I think that's right). Anyway, there wasn't time to dawdle over it. My guess would be that Kegel performed it more slowly because it seems like the natural thing to do, being more reverential and all.

I have another complete set of Mozart masses on period instruments which, IMO, exceeds Harnoncourt even. I have never done any sort of head-to-head comparison on them for time or tempo, it isn't my thing so much as listening to them is. This is Peter Neumann's set which got started on Virgin and then absorbed into EMI.

[asin]B005BC18JO[/asin]

Someone here rec'd it to me and I am pleased to have scooped it up. For me, the point of variety is not that this or that version is better or righter, it merely reflects actual differences that existed then (and now) in the way performances are realized. And man, there are some differences in Mozart masses!  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 14, 2016, 05:23:24 AM
Thanks for replying, Gurn.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2016, 05:03:44 AM
My guess would be that Kegel performed it more slowly because it seems like the natural thing to do, being more reverential and all.

Probably you´re right. It works, but swifter works better, IMO.

Quote
I have another complete set of Mozart masses on period instruments which, IMO, exceeds Harnoncourt even. I have never done any sort of head-to-head comparison on them for time or tempo, it isn't my thing so much as listening to them is. This is Peter Neumann's set which got started on Virgin and then absorbed into EMI.

[asin]B005BC18JO[/asin]

Someone here rec'd it to me and I am pleased to have scooped it up. For me, the point of variety is not that this or that version is better or righter, it merely reflects actual differences that existed then (and now) in the way performances are realized. And man, there are some differences in Mozart masses!  :D

8)

I have it in this incarnation:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/MozartMasses.jpg)

and I already checked it but it has only the masses. That Kyrie KV 33 is a stand alone piece, written in Paris.

There is a Youtube performance with the Arnold-Schoenber-Chor which is roughly at the same speed as Harnoncourt. Worth checking out as well.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on September 14, 2016, 05:30:56 AM
Thank you both.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3ee0rwFaSsE
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2016, 06:23:11 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 14, 2016, 05:23:24 AM
Thanks for replying, Gurn.

Probably you´re right. It works, but swifter works better, IMO.

I have it in this incarnation:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/MozartMasses.jpg)

and I already checked it but it has only the masses. That Kyrie KV 33 is a stand alone piece, written in Paris.

There is a Youtube performance with the Arnold-Schoenber-Chor which is roughly at the same speed as Harnoncourt. Worth checking out as well.

Yes, even the 10 disk version doesn't have that one. Curious how K 33 could have been written as late as Paris, the family had already left there by the time of K 10-15. Chronologic anomaly, it seems. :)  I should check out that Gardiner you mentioned, I like them generally.

Personal taste is such a major component of what we think of as quality. I read reviews all the time by people who say Harnoncourt sucks because he "flies right through" something or other, and yet you and I prefer it that way. There is certainly a middle ground in terms of tempo where ensemble and phrasing are all just right for everyone. I wonder if anyone has ever found it?   :D  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2016, 06:23:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2016, 05:30:56 AM
Thank you both.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3ee0rwFaSsE

Thanks Karl, very nice!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on September 14, 2016, 06:51:49 AM
Actually the rules in Salzburg were more like 25-30 minutes of music at most for mass (cf. e.g. KV 317) with some exceptions for the elaborate festive masses. (But the c minor fragment might have never been performed; it lasts almost an hour and a complete mass would have been 80 min. I guess)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 14, 2016, 07:04:52 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2016, 06:23:11 AM
I should check out that Gardiner you mentioned, I like them generally.

I mentioned no Gardiner.  :D

This is what I mentioned:

Quote from: karlhenning on September 14, 2016, 05:30:56 AM
Thank you both.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3ee0rwFaSsE

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2016, 07:21:04 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 14, 2016, 06:51:49 AM
Actually the rules in Salzburg were more like 25-30 minutes of music at most for mass (cf. e.g. KV 317) with some exceptions for the elaborate festive masses. (But the c minor fragment might have never been performed; it lasts almost an hour and a complete mass would have been 80 min. I guess)

Yes, I couldn't remember the exact number, but it was tiny compared to Vienna. They clearly had to zip right along to include all of the music in an average mass. Just as an aside, the Archbishop also didn't allow "telescoping" the Kyrie and Gloria movements, so when they performed Joseph Haydn's missa brevis to St John of God, for example, Michael Haydn needed to take the Gloria and "unzip" it, as it were, into a full sized Gloria. That sort of thing can have only added to teh temporal pressure the musicians felt. :)

8)

PS - the mass lasted longer than the music. Just sayin'
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on September 17, 2016, 12:47:18 AM
Last week I got this disc with 4 quartets (harpsichord+strings op.7,1-3 and op.14,1 - it's a wonderful disc but quite short <60 min) by Johann Schobert, a German early classical composer who died in 1767 from mushroom poisoning (together with several friends and family members). His life is poorly documented; his birth year is usually given as 1735 making him a contemporary of Haydn and the youngest Bach son, but one also finds 1720 and as late as 1740. (His birthplace is also unknown, most likely seems Silesia, but Nuremberg or the Alsace region are also possible. From about 1760 until his death he lived in Paris and worked at the court of Louis XV.) In any case the music was probably written in the early/mid 1760s. I find them quite remarkable. They are within the "gallant"/early classical style but more expressive than your standard rococo (e.g. Joh. Chr. Bach) and also more "fully voiced" than simplistic melody+accompaniment. Anyone who likes early/middle Haydn should give them a try. Brosse has another disc with trios but this was too expensive for me and there is another recital with quartets and trios on harmonia mundi.

[asin]B000024056[/asin]

[asin]B00002405J[/asin] [asin]B000E3J3Q0[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 17, 2016, 08:18:17 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 17, 2016, 12:47:18 AM
Last week I got this disc with 4 quartets (harpsichord+strings) by Johann Schobert, a German early classical composer who died in 1767 from mushroom poisoning (together with several friends and family members). His life is poorly documented; his birth year is usually given as 1735 making him a contemporary of Haydn and the youngest Bach son, but one also finds 1720 and as late as 1740. (His birthplace is also unknown, most likely seems Silesia, but Nuremberg or the Alsace region are also possible. From about 1760 until his death he lived in Paris and worked at the court of Louis XV.) In any case the music was probably written in the early/mid 1760s. I find them quite remarkable. They are within the "gallant"/early classical style but more expressive than your standard rococo (e.g. Joh. Chr. Bach) and also more "fully voiced" than simplistic melody+accompaniment. Anyone who likes early/middle Haydn should give them a try. Brosse has another disc with trios but this was too expensive for me and there is another recital with quartets and trios on harmonia mundi.

Boy, I've not thought about Johann Schobert (c. 1735-1767) in a while but remember the mushroom poisoning - those Quartet discs look interesting - I have just the two CDs shown below and will put them on today for a listen.  Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/512wN%2B0DTBL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51nfJYAHEyL.jpg) 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 18, 2016, 12:56:21 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 17, 2016, 12:47:18 AM
[asin]B000024056[/asin]

[asin]B00002405J[/asin] [asin]B000E3J3Q0[/asin]

I have all three of them (plus the two below) and I strongly second the recommendation.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/034/MI0001034141.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/093/MI0001093640.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2016, 06:43:43 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2016, 12:56:21 AM
I have all three of them (plus the two below) and I strongly second the recommendation.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/034/MI0001034141.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I really like the looks of this one, it would fit very well into my sonatas collection. I know Schobert from yet another disk, not shown here, by the Four Nations Ensemble on Gaudeamus of 4 trio sonatas of Opus 16, as well as the Banchini disk. Adding in that solo sonatas on hammerflügel would be perfect! :)

8)

[asin]B0000030OZ[/asin]
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 18, 2016, 07:09:05 AM
Well, just today I´ve got a new one:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/994/MI0000994864.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

:D 8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2016, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 18, 2016, 07:09:05 AM
Well, just today I´ve got a new one:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/994/MI0000994864.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

:D 8)

Nice. Are you streaming those or downloading, or do you actually find the disk somewhere? I ask because finding the disk somewhere can be a bitch!  For example, on your earlier post, I googled "mario martinoli schobert amazon" and literally every Amazon in the world except Amazon USA came up with it. The only US outlet I could fins was CDUniverse and they were backordering it. I know I can be more cosmopolitan and order from The World, but it is nice not to have to. *sigh*.  I know, I'm just a whiner. Well, hard cheese. >:(   :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on September 18, 2016, 08:20:52 AM
Are the ASV issues certainly post-bronzing era? I have become wary about used ASV and hyperion discs unless I am completely sure they are sufficiently recent issues not to suffer from the bronzing problem.

There is also a disc with keyboard sonatas by Brigitte Haudebourg who apparently recorded quite a bit of lesser known 18th century keyboard music (also Benda, Kozeluch, Mehul, Eckard... some names I never encountered before).

[asin]B00B0XUTRK[/asin]

In any case it is a pity that of the little Schobert there is most is expensive and/or out of print.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 19, 2016, 06:24:01 AM
Cross post from WAYLT. Not strictly Classical but I´ll take the risk of being rebuked.  :)

Quote from: Florestan on September 19, 2016, 04:10:09 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lxDGGkSKIp4/VbXmu3r5oUI/AAAAAAAADVE/rpQUUOvX3CM/s1600/cover.png)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/120/MI0001120386.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)


Having listened to PCs 1, 3 and 4 I think Schumann´s harsh judgment on Herz is unfair, and probably biased. There´s drama in the first movements, lyricism and poetry aplenty in the slow movements and infectious, ebullient jollity in the finales. What is conspicuously lacking is any pretension to, or attempt at, profound philosophy and deep psychology --- and all the better, I say. I think Gurn would like them just as much as I did.



Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2016, 08:20:47 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 18, 2016, 08:20:52 AM
Are the ASV issues certainly post-bronzing era? I have become wary about used ASV and hyperion discs unless I am completely sure they are sufficiently recent issues not to suffer from the bronzing problem.

There is also a disc with keyboard sonatas by Brigitte Haudebourg who apparently recorded quite a bit of lesser known 18th century keyboard music (also Benda, Kozeluch, Mehul, Eckard... some names I never encountered before).

[asin]B00B0XUTRK[/asin]

In any case it is a pity that of the little Schobert there is most is expensive and/or out of print.

The one of Opus 16 that I posted I bought brand new in 2004 or 05, and I am pretty sure this was later than the Bronze Age.  Mine still looks brand new. The only problems I've ever had with bronzing came from Hyperion. Since the disk(s) I had problems with were now OOP, they sent me FLAC's of them, and I burned a disk and put in the jewel boxes. Not the ideal solution, but better than a sharp stick in the eye, which is what I had expected. I hate bronzing...  >:( 

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2016, 08:21:42 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 19, 2016, 06:24:01 AM
Cross post from WAYLT. Not strictly Classical but I´ll take the risk of being rebuked.  :)

Having listened to PCs 1, 3 and 4 I think Schumann´s harsh judgment on Herz is unfair, and probably biased. There´s drama in the first movements, lyricism and poetry aplenty in the slow movements and infectious, ebullient jollity in the finales. What is conspicuously lacking is any pretension to, or attempt at, profound philosophy and deep psychology --- and all the better, I say. I think Gurn would like them just as much as I did.

Probably would be too prolix for me, although I like a good tune as much as anyone.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on September 19, 2016, 08:27:33 AM
bronzing is only until mid-1990s or so, anything post 2000 should certainly be safe. But I recently managed to get an ASV disc used (Haydn quartets with Lindays Q) that was bronzed. I had thought that the disc would be newer than it actually was and had forgotten about bronzing having affected also ASV in the 1990s...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 19, 2016, 08:38:02 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2016, 08:21:42 AM
Probably would be too prolix for me, although I like a good tune as much as anyone.  :)

8)

Well, here are some timings:

Piano Concerto no. 5 in F minor op. 180 - 15:59
Piano Concerto no. 7 in B minor op. 207 - 17:50
Piano Concerto no. 8 in A-flat major op. 217 - 14:14

Mozart is way more prolix than that.  :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on September 20, 2016, 01:01:58 AM
This is a peach.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/972/MI0000972519.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

All three are exquisite but the second divertimento is deliciously hilarious, or hilariously delicious: the very idea of ending a Viennese divertimento with a kazatchok is so incongruous as to already provoke laughter. As for the movement itself, it is guaranteed to bring the house down in a general outburst of good clean fun.

Highly recommended.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 20, 2016, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 20, 2016, 01:01:58 AM
This is a peach.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/972/MI0000972519.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81sGlqNdqtL._SL1400_.jpg)

All three are exquisite but the second divertimento is deliciously hilarious, or hilariously delicious: the very idea of ending a Viennese divertimento with a kazatchok is so incongruous as to already provoke laughter. As for the movement itself, it is guaranteed to bring the house down in a general outburst of good clean fun.

Highly recommended.

Need to 'pull out' my small Cartellieri collection - own about 7 discs, including the one shown above, left - interestingly, Dieter Klocker is on all except the Symphonies (added above for those interested in his non-windy orchestral music) - Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on December 03, 2016, 05:17:24 AM
I finally found this very nice disc (the edition that does not show properly but the "white one" might be easier to find) at a good price. 3 string quartets by the Jadin brothers, the precocious Hyacinthe who died of tuberculosis at 24 (1776-1800) and his older brother Louis-Emmanuel who lived into his mid-80s (1768-1853!). Both wrote quite a bit more chamber music, most of which remains unrecorded to my knowledge.

[asin]B000003I0V[/asin] [asin]B00005S7WU[/asin]

I hope to get the harmonia mundi disc with Schobert chamber music and another one with music by Padre Soler today or in monday's post...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2016, 05:52:49 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 19, 2016, 08:27:33 AM
bronzing is only until mid-1990s or so, anything post 2000 should certainly be safe. But I recently managed to get an ASV disc used (Haydn quartets with Lindays Q) that was bronzed. I had thought that the disc would be newer than it actually was and had forgotten about bronzing having affected also ASV in the 1990s...

On that note, just last week I got an old Hyperion (English Orpheus Series) from ca 1995, which had only the lightest bronzing on the label side and none apparent on the playing side, and yet my computer drive couldn't even see it, while my player just put out a stream of static on top of the faintest background music. I am really nervous to take a chance on some of these older disks, which I would really hop on otherwise. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2016, 05:55:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 03, 2016, 05:17:24 AM
I finally found this very nice disc (the edition that does not show properly but the "white one" might be easier to find) at a good price. 3 string quartets by the Jadin brothers, the precocious Hyacinthe who died of tuberculosis at 24 (1776-1800) and his older brother Louis-Emmanuel who lived into his mid-80s (1768-1853!). Both wrote quite a bit more chamber music, most of which remains unrecorded to my knowledge.

[asin]B000003I0V[/asin] [asin]B00005S7WU[/asin]

I hope to get the harmonia mundi disc with Schobert chamber music and another one with music by Padre Soler today or in monday's post...

I like that, Jo. I have some Jadin (mostly H, a little L-E), it is really enjoyable music. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on December 03, 2016, 09:10:44 AM
I have another disc with string trios by Hyacinthe (les adieux/NCA) and one with piano sonatas (Pennetier/harmonia mundi). All quite enjoyable and the composer often has a particular lyrical early/protoromantic strain that sets him apart as rather original, I think.

Now tonight I'll probably listen to Schobert with Banchini/Sgrizzi as I just got a nice package of CDs... :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2016, 10:09:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 03, 2016, 09:10:44 AM
I have another disc with string trios by Hyacinthe (les adieux/NCA) and one with piano sonatas (Pennetier/harmonia mundi). All quite enjoyable and the composer often has a particular lyrical early/protoromantic strain that sets him apart as rather original, I think.

Now tonight I'll probably listen to Schobert with Banchini/Sgrizzi as I just got a nice package of CDs... :D

Yes, I have both of those, and quite enjoy them. FWIW, I have the Schobert/Banchini disk too, a recent acquisition. You could well be pleased with it. Schobert was a pioneer of Classicism, the very young Mozart was influenced by him, even before he met J.C. Bach. :)

8)
Title: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 05, 2017, 06:28:09 AM
Ernst Wolf's (1735-1792) string quartets are a true gem from Haydn's generation. I just had to jump in and say it after enjoying this CPO disk this morning. Aces!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170305/32661df0849e416c368fa755a298a79b.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2017, 07:12:57 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 05, 2017, 06:28:09 AM
Ernst Wolf's (1735-1792) string quartets are a true gem from Haydn's generation. I just had to jump in and say it after enjoying this CPO disk this morning. Aces!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170305/32661df0849e416c368fa755a298a79b.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi, Leo,

I never saw any other music by Wolf beyond this very neat little keyboard sonatas disk. He seems to have been a close follower of CPE Bach. I'll have to look into the string quartets, that is a pleasant surprise genre for me!  :)

8)
Title: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Leo K. on March 06, 2017, 06:37:32 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2017, 07:12:57 AM
Hi, Leo,

I never saw any other music by Wolf beyond this very neat little keyboard sonatas disk. He seems to have been a close follower of CPE Bach. I'll have to look into the string quartets, that is a pleasant surprise genre for me!  :)

8)

Thanks Gurn! I haven't seen the sonatas by Wolf. I really feel you'll enjoy his string quartets, which are finely written with subtlety and structural nuances. Aces :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 24, 2017, 11:56:17 AM
Kozeluch, Leopold (1747-1818) has not been discussed in this thread for a while (search brought up posts for 2011-12) - I now have about a half dozen CDs of his works (2 Symphonies, Piano Concertos, Piano Sonatas, and several w/ wind pieces) - he wrote over 400 compositions (list HERE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Leopold_Ko%C5%BEeluch)), and was a rival to Mozart in Vienna and quite popular as a composer and pianist, in addition to being a music publisher.

A few days ago, I received the disc below of Piano Concertos w/ Howard Shelley; also own the single CD of his Piano Sonatas w/ Kemp English on fortepiano - looking on Amazon, there are 10 volumes of these works w/ English (not sure if more exist or are projected?); now, Amazon also carries 2 volumes of these sonatas w/ Jenny Kim on fortepiano (Brilliant), likely an ongoing series?  SO, just curious if anyone has been 'exploring' the releases of Kozeluch's solo piano works?  Thanks for comments.  Dave :)

QuoteLeopold Koželuch, born Jan Antonín Koželuh, alternatively also Leopold Koželuh, Leopold Kotzeluch) (26 June 1747 – 7 May 1818) was a Czech composer and teacher of classical music. He was born in the town of Velvary, in Bohemia (present-day Czech Republic). He moved to Prague to further his musical education, before moving in Vienna in 1778, where he was based for the remainder of his career. In Vienna he achieved renown as a composer, pianist and teacher, and from 1792 until his death in 1818 he held royal appointments as Kammer Kapellmeister (music director) and Hofmusik Compositor (composer). Koželuch's compositional output included sonatas and concertos for keyboard, the instrument in which he specialised, as well as chamber music, choral music and opera. (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Ko%C5%BEeluch))

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71j6HA80MzL._SX522_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/612lUn1TWVL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Xq5BY9poL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2017, 02:52:57 AM
It's not a recording that I'd like to recommend, but a doctoral dissertation. It is most interesting and it debunks in a thorough and exhaustively documented manner two myths:

1. that Salzburg in the 18th century, and especially during Mozart's time, was a cultural and intellectual backwater

and

2. that Mozart was a musical-genius-cum-intellectual-and-social-idiot who had no interest in, nor knowledge of, anything other than music and musicmaking.

It convincingly makes the case for Salzburg being actually one of the foci of the Austrian Catholic Enlightenment and for the Mozart family (including Nannerl) being actively interested and involved in the contemporary intellectual life as part of an extended circle of like-minded friends and acquaintances.

Highly recommended. I wonder if a similar study has been written regarding Haydn and the Eszterhazys. Gurn?

https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/65897847/2016_T_pelmann_Viktor_Y_n_liang_0106937_ethesis_compressed_file.pdf (https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/65897847/2016_T_pelmann_Viktor_Y_n_liang_0106937_ethesis_compressed_file.pdf)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brian on January 25, 2018, 07:09:06 AM
This new recording has a number of features of interest.

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ARS38832.jpg)

For one thing, it repeatedly mis-lists the composer's life span as 1775-1791. He in fact lived 40 more years, and these compositions date from the 1820s.

For another thing, the booklet contains an advertisement for a home goods store?!

But most importantly, it appears to be the first-ever disc solely devoted to Traugott Eberwein, a member of the Weimar school whose only other mention on GMG came when André found him on a compilation CD. The works on this disc are:

Overture for grand orchestra in C
Concertante for Wind Quintet in F, Op. 67
Symphony No. 3 in E flat, Op. 84

The booklet notes speculate that this is the only surviving symphony.

Listening later this morning  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The One on January 25, 2018, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2009, 07:05:20 AM
After 15 years of listening to classical music, I've finally settled down to a favorite era. I have a lot of Baroque music that I truly enjoy, and even more Romantic Era music. I even have and listen to quite a lot of 20th century music (21st? Well, maybe a little bit). But the music that I enjoy most, and which constitutes by far the largest section of my collection, is Classical Era music.

My personal definition of the Classical Era is a rather broad one. It constitutes a period from roughly 1740 to roughly 1830.

Do you still have this opinion after 24 years?  ::)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 25, 2018, 10:20:27 AM
Quote from: The One on January 25, 2018, 09:24:30 AM
Do you still have this opinion after 24 years?  ::)

Probably even more now than then. The only Romantic I still listen to is Russian stuff and Dvorak. 20th century I have narrowed also, I like DSCH, Prokofiev, Bloch, some Bartok and Henning. Baroque, Italian and Austrian. And that's about it. Sad, I know. :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2018, 10:22:07 AM
Henning, of course, is 21st-c.  8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 25, 2018, 10:29:50 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 25, 2018, 10:22:07 AM
Henning, of course, is 21st-c.  8)

I prefer his juvenilia... :D  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
Hah!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The One on January 25, 2018, 11:12:44 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 25, 2018, 10:29:50 AM
his juvenilia...

Come on! Early Henning.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 25, 2018, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: The One on January 25, 2018, 11:12:44 AM
Come on! Early Henning.

I'm very fussy. This was Karl's Classic Era. Less prolixity and more atonal honking... ;)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2018, 12:15:27 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 25, 2018, 11:36:40 AM
I'm very fussy. This was Karl's Classic Era. Less prolixity and more atonal honking... ;)

8)
My once and future honking.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: kishnevi on January 25, 2018, 06:12:15 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 25, 2018, 07:09:06 AM
This new recording has a number of features of interest.

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ARS38832.jpg)

For one thing, it repeatedly mis-lists the composer's life span as 1775-1791. He in fact lived 40 more years, and these compositions date from the 1820s.

For another thing, the booklet contains an advertisement for a home goods store?!

But most importantly, it appears to be the first-ever disc solely devoted to Traugott Eberwein, a member of the Weimar school whose only other mention on GMG came when André found him on a compilation CD. The works on this disc are:

Overture for grand orchestra in C
Concertante for Wind Quintet in F, Op. 67
Symphony No. 3 in E flat, Op. 84

The booklet notes speculate that this is the only surviving symphony.

Listening later this morning  8)

I saw that on Arkivmusic, which thinks three different composers are included.

There's a companion issue
[asin]B075N13FW6[/asin]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BV-3yCbqL.jpg)
The Amazon promo Editorial Review
QuoteThe music on this recording with works from the period of Viennese Classicism was performed on modern instruments, using Beethovens instrumentation instructions from 1813. His works and also the works of Mozart and Haydn were sometimes more, sometimes less influenced by the Weimarer Klassik, which one connects to the writers like Goethe, Schiller or Herder. The Thuringian Chamber Orchestra, founded in 1962 by members of the Staatskapelle Weimar, is one of the worlds oldest chamber orchestras. It is located in historic Weimar, the city of poets and phillsophers, but also of great musicians such as Johann Sebastian Bach, Johann Nepomuk Hummel, Franz Liszt and Richard Strauss. The ensemble peforms regularly at concert venues across Germany and in many European countries as well as in the Far East and Mexico. The orchestras repertoire ranges from the 18th to the 21st century, with a focus on composers from Weimar and its surroundings. Their extensive discography includes over 250 recordings for radio broadcast, and illustrates the ensembles stylistic confidence and its consistently high levels of musicianship.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The One on January 29, 2018, 04:13:21 AM
The most famous harpist of the end of 18th century was Madame Krumpholtz (Krumpholc), wife of another well-known harpist-inventor-composer, and Dussek's Op 11 harp and piano duo was dedicated to her.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2018, 04:24:25 AM
Quote from: The One on January 29, 2018, 04:13:21 AM
The most famous harpist of the end of 18th century was Madame Krumpholtz (Krumpholc), wife of another well-known harpist-inventor-composer, and Dussek's Op 11 harp and piano duo was dedicated to her.

She played at several of Haydn's first round of London concerts. Her husband was also a famous harpist, and he had been employed for a while at Esterházy in the 1770's. I have a couple of recordings of Krumpholz concertos. QUite nice if you are a pedal harp fan. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The One on January 29, 2018, 04:43:04 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2018, 04:24:25 AM
She played at several of Haydn's first round of London concerts. Her husband was also a famous harpist, and he had been employed for a while at Esterházy in the 1770's. I have a couple of recordings of Krumpholz concertos. QUite nice if you are a pedal harp fan. :)

8)

Jean-Baptiste Krumpholtz.
Are there transcribed harp works of Haydn?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2018, 06:23:45 AM
Quote from: The One on January 29, 2018, 04:43:04 AM
Jean-Baptiste Krumpholtz.
Are there transcribed harp works of Haydn?

I'm not aware of any, however, transcriptions were such a huge business back then that nothing would surprise me. :)

You know that some of Beethoven's early variations in the Bonn era were for 'Clavier or Harp'?  I would like to hear some harp versions, I'm surprised some repertoire-starved harpist hasn't jumped on that. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The One on January 29, 2018, 06:30:11 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2018, 06:23:45 AM
I'm not aware of any, however, transcriptions were such a huge business back then that nothing would surprise me. :)

You know that some of Beethoven's early variations in the Bonn era were for 'Clavier or Harp'?  I would like to hear some harp versions, I'm surprised some repertoire-starved harpist hasn't jumped on that. :)

8)

Zabaleta must have done something. Let me check

I have WoO 64 by Robles
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: bwv 1080 on January 29, 2018, 06:34:39 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2018, 06:23:45 AM
I'm not aware of any, however, transcriptions were such a huge business back then that nothing would surprise me. :)

You know that some of Beethoven's early variations in the Bonn era were for 'Clavier or Harp'?  I would like to hear some harp versions, I'm surprised some repertoire-starved harpist hasn't jumped on that. :)

8)

Do you have an opus number?  guitarists are repertoire-starved as well
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The One on January 29, 2018, 06:41:08 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on January 29, 2018, 06:34:39 AM
Do you have an opus number?  guitarists are repertoire-starved as well
He exaggerated. Only Variations WoO 64
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2018, 06:54:07 AM
Quote from: The One on January 29, 2018, 06:41:08 AM
He exaggerated. Only Variations WoO 64

I thought there were 2 of them. I don't have any reference material here at work. Robles, eh? I have her doing Mozart's concerto, very nice!

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The One on January 29, 2018, 07:03:53 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2018, 06:54:07 AM
I thought there were 2 of them. I don't have any reference material here at work. Robles, eh? I have her doing Mozart's concerto, very nice!

8)
I'll re-check carefully. Robles; the disc that 64 is on is quite good.

Edit: No. You can stop harping on about it
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2018, 07:30:36 AM
Quote from: The One on January 29, 2018, 07:03:53 AM
I'll re-check carefully. Robles; the disc that 64 is on is quite good.

Edit: No. You can stop harping on about it

:D

8)
Title: Query to Brian
Post by: kishnevi on January 29, 2018, 05:23:20 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 25, 2018, 07:09:06 AM
This new recording has a number of features of interest.

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ARS38832.jpg)

For one thing, it repeatedly mis-lists the composer's life span as 1775-1791. He in fact lived 40 more years, and these compositions date from the 1820s.

For another thing, the booklet contains an advertisement for a home goods store?!

But most importantly, it appears to be the first-ever disc solely devoted to Traugott Eberwein, a member of the Weimar school whose only other mention on GMG came when André found him on a compilation CD. The works on this disc are:

Overture for grand orchestra in C
Concertante for Wind Quintet in F, Op. 67
Symphony No. 3 in E flat, Op. 84

The booklet notes speculate that this is the only surviving symphony.

Listening later this morning  8)

Brian, what did you think of this one? (It's in my cart at Arkivmusic.)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on February 01, 2018, 02:02:33 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 25, 2018, 07:09:06 AM
This new recording has a number of features of interest.

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ARS38832.jpg)

For one thing, it repeatedly mis-lists the composer's life span as 1775-1791. He in fact lived 40 more years, and these compositions date from the 1820s.

For another thing, the booklet contains an advertisement for a home goods store?!

But most importantly, it appears to be the first-ever disc solely devoted to Traugott Eberwein, a member of the Weimar school whose only other mention on GMG came when André found him on a compilation CD. The works on this disc are:

Overture for grand orchestra in C
Concertante for Wind Quintet in F, Op. 67
Symphony No. 3 in E flat, Op. 84

The booklet notes speculate that this is the only surviving symphony.

Listening later this morning  8)

My interest is certainly picqued.

There is also this in the same series:

(https://ssli.ebayimg.com/images/g/-kMAAOSwndZaUu5I/s-l640.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61iy0m51xIL.jpg)

I'd get them for the artwork alone.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on February 13, 2018, 01:59:25 AM
It seems that Bart van Oort is embarking on a complete Dussek cycle:

(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421955995.jpg)

Will definitely follow that development with interest.  :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2018, 08:11:14 AM
Quote from: Que on February 13, 2018, 01:59:25 AM
It seems that Bart van Oort is embarking on a complete Dussek cycle:

(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421955995.jpg)

Will definitely follow that development with interest.  :)

Q

Absolutely, good news. I love Dussek's sonatas, and there are many I haven't got fortepiano recordings of. I look forward to having the complete on my shelf!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: North Star on February 13, 2018, 08:25:57 AM
Quote from: Que on February 13, 2018, 01:59:25 AM
It seems that Bart van Oort is embarking on a complete Dussek cycle:

Will definitely follow that development with interest.  :)

Q
That does look very nice, I rather enjoyed the disc in Staier's DHM box earlier today.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2018, 08:42:08 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 13, 2018, 08:25:57 AM
That does look very nice, I rather enjoyed the disc in Staier's DHM box earlier today.

Yes, I like the Staier disk too. IIRC, it was the one that got me onto Dussek at the start. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: The One on February 14, 2018, 07:38:32 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2018, 08:11:14 AM
and there are many I haven't got fortepiano recordings of.

Do you have these?
(https://i.scdn.co/image/76b487d1c499a97d56c72fbf8a6f227d0c0a46bf)(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/041/MI0001041641.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on July 13, 2018, 02:57:55 AM
Please, read this:

Quote from:  Louis Spohr, excerpt from his Autobiography
You know that [Pierre Baillot] frequently plays and takes great pleasure in Boccherini's quintets. I was desirous of hearing him in these quintets, with about a dozen of each I am acquainted, in order to see whether from the manner in which he executed them he could succeed in making one forget the poverty of the compositions. But well as they were given by him, the frequent childishness of the melodies, and the poverty of the harmonies (almost always three-voiced only) were no less unpleasing to me, than in all those I heard before. One cand hardly understand how a cultivated artist like Baillot, to whom our treasures in composition of this kind are known, can bring himself to play those quintets still, whose worth consists only in the regard had to the period and circumstances under which they were written.  But that they are [in Paris] listened to with as much plesaure as a quintet of Mozart, is another proof that Parisians cannot distinguish the good from the bad, and are at least half a century behind in art.

then please read this:

Quote from: Louis Picquot, excerpt from Notice on the Life and Works of Luigi Boccherini (my translation from the original French)
...the effect produced by Baillot [in a G-major Quintet by Boccherini] which he was not afraid of playing immediately after the formidable C-major Quintet of Beethoven (The Storm). Mr. Fétis, in attendance of this concert, was, like everybody else, bewitched; I can still remember his surprise, his enchantment at hearing this simple, naive music succeeding the powerful and vigorous harmonies of the German master. It was wonderful! Comparisons, nobody dreamt of. We were moved, transported, spellbound; that was all. Such is the power of the inspirations which flow from the soul, that they exercise an irresistible dominion, because they go straight to the heart!

and then please decide for yourself who was really narrow-minded, tasteless and backward-looking.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2018, 05:16:21 PM
Quote from: Florestan on July 13, 2018, 02:57:55 AM
Please, read this:

then please read this:

and then please decide for yourself who was really narrow-minded, tasteless and backward-looking.

Well, as Que's footer used to read (my translation) "there is no accounting for taste".  Spohr was a competitor, in that he was selling his own quintets, I don't know Picquot... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on May 28, 2019, 10:19:20 PM
Quote from: Que on February 13, 2018, 01:59:25 AM
It seems that Bart van Oort is embarking on a complete Dussek cycle:

(https://media3.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421955995.jpg)

Will definitely follow that development with interest.  :)

Q

As you have probably noticed, finally this wasn't a "monographic" work by Van Oort (unfortunately):

QuoteThis disc is the first part of an extensive recording project using the combined
resources of eight excellent fortepianists. As a result, we will soon have the first
comprehensive recording of Dussek's piano sonatas on period instruments. Listeners
are invited to take a journey through the brilliant, harmonically beautiful and
expressive music of one of the most fascinating composers at the threshold of early
Romanticism.

It's an outstanding first installment, anyway.

I don't resist to quote what Van Oort writes on the English piano:

QuoteThe English piano of Dussek's time
While in modern times standardization has, to a great extent, affected the craft of
piano building, instruments were still very personal works of art in the eighteenth
century. As a result, pianos were different from town to town and from builder to
builder, and even within one builder's output. Although craftsmen did influence each
other within a certain area, the distance between cities as far apart as London and
Vienna resulted in two distinct schools of piano building, so that we have come to
recognize two main types of early fortepianos: the "English" and the "Viennese."
From about 1770 until 1870, these two schools of piano building competed for the
favor of both musicians and the audience. In many sources from the eighteenth and
early nineteenth century, explicit differences are noted between them. One of the most
important of these descriptions is found in Johann Nepomuk Hummel's Ausführliche
theoretisch-practische Anweisung of 1828. Hummel (1778-1837) lived in London for
a number of years and was therefore well acquainted with English pianos.
The Viennese instrument allows itself to be handled with ease by the lightest hands. It
[...] does not obstruct velocity through too great an effort. [... ] the force of the tone
must be generated by the speed and force of the finger only. The English action must
be done equal justice because of its durability and fullness of the tone. However, these
instruments do not allow for the same level of fluency as the Viennese, since the touch
of the keys feels noticeably weightier, while they also fall much deeper [...]
The Viennese [fortepiano] allows the performer to play with all possible nuances,
speaks clearly and promptly, and has a round, flute-like tone which distinguishes
well from the accompanying orchestra, especially in big halls [...] Meanwhile I have
noticed, that in spite of the big tone of [the English] instruments in a room, the nature
of their tone changes in a large space and does not penetrate as well as ours through a
complicated orchestral accompaniment [...].
While the English piano was difficult to become accustomed to for most Viennese
and German pianists, it established itself as an alternative to the Viennese piano when
London became one of the most important centers for piano building and playing even before 1800.
English pianos were different from the Viennese in a number of ways:
they had more resonance because the damping was not quite as efficient as in the
Viennese pianos, the keys fell deeper and felt heavier than the Viennese, while the tone
was both fuller and thicker. Besides, English pianos often had a damper pedal from
the early 1780's, while Viennese pianos were built with a knee lever until after 1800.
These differences, which led to a distinct style of playing on each instrument, were
important enough after the middle of the nineteenth century for even the famous piano
pedagogue Friedrich Wieck to write about them in his Clavier und Gesang (1853).
Fréderic Kalkbrenner (1785-1849), who lived in London from late 1814 to 1824,
wrote in his treatise Méthode pour apprendre le piano-forte à l'aide du guide-mains of
1831: The English pianos [...] have caused the professional musicians of that country
to adopt a grander style and that beautiful way of singing which distinguishes them
[...] Dussek, John Field and J. B. Cramer, the leaders of that school of which Clementi
is the founder, make use of the forte pedal as long as the harmony does not change [...]
In his Theoretical and Practical Piano Forte School..., Op.500 (1839) Beethoven's
pupil Carl Czerny (1791-1857) added: The [English] pianos of that day possessed for
their most distinguished properties, a full Singing quality of tone; [....] this naturally
led Dussek and Cramer, and a few others to that soft, quiet and melodious style of
execution, [with] beautiful Cantabile...
The legato touch, the thicker and richer tone, longer tone life, and incomplete
damping of the English piano enriched the singing powers of the instrument and
inspired composers to write long cantabile melodies: a singing legato for which Johann
Ladislaus Dussek (1760-1812) and John Field (1782-1837) were especially known. If
the English piano could speak less, it could sing more than the Viennese piano.

Finally, a pearl for Gurn:

QuoteMost worthy friend, I consider myself fortunate in being able to assure you, that you
have one of the most upright, moral, and, in music most eminent of men, for a son."
A letter from Joseph Haydn to Jan Ladislav Dussek's father, 1792
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2019, 04:16:19 AM
I just obtained Volume 7 of this estimable series. Have got to hear lots of 'new' music, and as Gordo notes, different players on each disk, including Viviana Sofronitzky, Alexei Lubimov and several others. Dussek was huge in his time, and a bit of a scamp, too. As so many others did, he tended to fade in the 19th century, but his quality was enough to provide a good reason for his return today. Highly recommended. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on May 29, 2019, 08:22:14 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2019, 04:16:19 AM
I just obtained Volume 7 of this estimable series. Have got to hear lots of 'new' music, and as Gordo notes, different players on each disk, including Viviana Sofronitzky, Alexei Lubimov and several others. Dussek was huge in his time, and a bit of a scamp, too. As so many others did, he tended to fade in the 19th century, but his quality was enough to provide a good reason for his return today. Highly recommended. :)

8)

I have just listened to Volume 1. Sound quality, interpretation and, of course, the music itself, are great...

The instrument is lovely captured, too [Fortepiano Longman Clementi (Londen, 1798-1799), Collection Chris Maene, restored 2002].

I really want to hear what does Lubimov with this music!
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2019, 08:49:24 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2019, 04:16:19 AM
I just obtained Volume 7 of this estimable series. Have got to hear lots of 'new' music, and as Gordo notes, different players on each disk, including Viviana Sofronitzky, Alexei Lubimov and several others. Dussek was huge in his time, and a bit of a scamp, too. As so many others did, he tended to fade in the 19th century, but his quality was enough to provide a good reason for his return today. Highly recommended. :)

Hi Gurn - just checked my Dussek collection and I got up to Vol. 4 and must have not looked lately!  ::)  Will correct that soon!  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2019, 03:19:33 PM
An interesting group of pianofortes, mainly the Longman & Clementi's (at least 2 of them) but also a Broadwood and a Viennese type made in Germany, and a Dutch one too. They all sound good, the players are uniformly excellent, IMO.

Volume 1 - Bart van Oort piano
Fortepiano Longman Clementi (Londen, 1798-1799), Collection Chris Maene, restored 2002.

Volume 2 - Piet Kuijken fortepiano
Instrument: Longman Clementi, London 1798, Maene collection

Volume 3 - Alexei Lubimov fortepiano
Fortepiano Longman Clementi (London, 1798-1799),Collection Chris Maene, restored 2002.

Volume 4 - Tuija Hakkila piano
Fortepianos
Op.5 No.3 & Op.43: Anonymous Viennese 5-octave fortepiano "Bureau de Musique, Leipsic"
(ca. 1795-1800), restored by Edwin Beunk, Enschede, Holland (2005). Collection: Tuija Hakkila
Op.24 & Op.61: Copy of a Longman Clementi fortepiano (London,1799) made by Chris Maene,
Belgium (2003). Collection: Malcolm Bilson

Volume 5 - Wolfgang Brunner fortepiano
Fortepianos
Robert Brown: Copy after Michael Rosenberger (Vienna c. 1810),
Oberndorf near Salzburg 2009 (tr. 1-2, 6-7)
John Broadwood and Son, London 1804, Rococo Summer Pavilion Stift Schlägl/
Austria (tr. 3-5, 8-11)

Volume 6 - Viviana Sofronitzki fortepiano
Fortepiano Longman Clementi (London, 1798-1799),Collection Chris Maene, restored 2002.

Volume 7 - Zvi Meniker fortepiano
Fortepiano by Clementi, London 1797, restored by Chris Maene

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on May 30, 2019, 03:10:21 PM
That's a dream team! The only name I'm not familiar with is Mr. Brunner. All the instruments seem superb, too.

BTW, Lubimov recorded a highly recommendable disk on Alpha devoted to Dussek. It includes a concerto for two pianos (with Olga Pashchenko) and two chamber works.    :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on May 30, 2019, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: Gordo on May 30, 2019, 03:10:21 PM
That's a dream team! The only name I'm not familiar with is Mr. Brunner. All the instruments seem superb, too.

Great!  :) I guess the eventual boxset (how many discs are to be expected?) will be a non- brainer....  8)

QuoteBTW, Lubimov recorded a highly recommendable disk on Alpha devoted to Dussek. It includes a concerto for two pianos (with Olga Pashchenko) and two chamber works.    :)

Noted, thanks!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2019, 05:33:48 AM
Quote from: Gordo on May 30, 2019, 03:10:21 PM
That's a dream team! The only name I'm not familiar with is Mr. Brunner. All the instruments seem superb, too.

BTW, Lubimov recorded a highly recommendable disk on Alpha devoted to Dussek. It includes a concerto for two pianos (with Olga Pashchenko) and two chamber works.    :)

Wolfgang Brunner records on the Hannsler/Profil label, I have 2 disks of Mozart, one he plays with Leonore Stauss, 4 hands music and the disk is called "Für Nannerl", very nice. I also have a second Mozart from him with the 2 & 3 piano concertos. In addition, he is conductor on a Haydn disk of the marionette opera "Philemon und Baucis". He conducts the Salzburger Hofmusik, which he also does on that Mozart concerto disk. He is a good player.

I also have that Lubimov Dussek concerto disk, it is most enjoyable. I've become rather a fan of Lubimov over the years... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2019, 05:39:18 AM
Quote from: Que on May 30, 2019, 11:37:15 PM
Great!  :) I guess the eventual boxset (how many discs are to be expected?) will be a non- brainer....  8)

Noted, thanks!  :)

Q

I was doing some counting recently to try and answer that question, and it looks like 2 or 3 more will cover the sonatas, unless they go out and begin to include the solo piano music otherwise. So, 9 or 10 total. Not quite the 18 in the Clementi set!  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Wakefield on May 31, 2019, 01:05:41 PM
Quote from: Que on May 30, 2019, 11:37:15 PM
Noted, thanks!  :)

Q

Like Gurn, I'm a fan of Lubimov; although I didn't need a process, it was a sudden effect after listening to his Mozart's piano sonatas several years ago.

Closer to Badura-Skoda and Bilson than people like Bezuidenhout, van Oort. Beghin, the last three my favorite fortepianists after the demigods.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2019, 01:28:41 PM
Quote from: Gordo on May 31, 2019, 01:05:41 PM
...Closer to Badura-Skoda and Bilson than people like Bezuidenhout, Bart van Oort. Beghin, the last three my favorite fortepianists after the demigods.

I agree with everything you say here. Lubimov and The 'B's' clearly have it when it comes to fortepianos!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on December 25, 2019, 08:32:29 AM
Is Donizetti considered a Classical era composer?  He falls right at the end of the time frame, born the same year as Schubert but lived much longer, but not as long as Rossini, who was born five years earlier.

His string quartets sound like they could easily fit in with the style of the period, not sure about his operas since I don't listen to opera very much.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: vers la flamme on December 25, 2019, 08:37:15 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 25, 2019, 08:32:29 AM
Is Donizetti considered a Classical era composer?  He falls right at the end of the time frame, born the same year as Schubert but lived much longer, but not as long as Rossini, who was born five years earlier.

His string quartets sound like they could easily fit in with the style of the period, not sure about his operas since I don't listen to opera very much.
I didn't know Donizetti wrote string quartets, but I rate his operas, like those of the other Bel Canto guys, as pure early Romantic. Though Italian opera evolved on a totally different timeline than German concert music I think. It almost exists outside of that whole continuum of baroque, classical, romantic, modern. It may be a different story with the quartets, I'd have to hear them.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2019, 08:51:34 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 25, 2019, 08:32:29 AM
Is Donizetti considered a Classical era composer?  He falls right at the end of the time frame, born the same year as Schubert but lived much longer, but not as long as Rossini, who was born five years earlier.

His string quartets sound like they could easily fit in with the style of the period, not sure about his operas since I don't listen to opera very much.

I think he is stylistically Classical. Chronologically (which is so deceptive!) he would be an early Romantic, but he is much more concise than Schubert, for example, since you mentioned him. I wouldn't dispute at all that his operas are Romantic style, but I think his quartets (and much other chamber music) which he wrote very early on (all before 1820) tend towards Classic.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: San Antone on December 25, 2019, 09:07:43 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 25, 2019, 08:37:15 AM
I didn't know Donizetti wrote string quartets, but I rate his operas, like those of the other Bel Canto guys, as pure early Romantic. Though Italian opera evolved on a totally different timeline than German concert music I think. It almost exists outside of that whole continuum of baroque, classical, romantic, modern. It may be a different story with the quartets, I'd have to hear them.

Donizetti was alone among the opera composers to devote his attention to chamber music, especially string quartets, he wrote 15.  And they are really very good.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2019, 08:51:34 AM
I think he is stylistically Classical. Chronologically (which is so deceptive!) he would be an early Romantic, but he is much more concise than Schubert, for example, since you mentioned him. I wouldn't dispute at all that his operas are Romantic style, but I think his quartets (and much other chamber music) which he wrote very early on (all before 1820) tend towards Classic.

8)

Thanks, that is kind of how I was thinking about it.   ;)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on December 25, 2019, 09:58:20 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 25, 2019, 08:37:15 AM
I rate his operas, like those of the other Bel Canto guys, as pure early Romantic.

This.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2019, 08:51:34 AM
I think his quartets (and much other chamber music) which he wrote very early on (all before 1820) tend towards Classic.

And this.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2020, 09:20:51 AM
Eberl, Anton (1765-1807) - searching this thread, Eberl's last post was about 6 years ago, so anything new?  The first 4 (3 top; 1 bottom left) are in my current collection - I decided to 'cull out' the 3-CD set of John Khouri (much better fortepianos exit) - SO, I was exploring Amazon today and not much has been added to this composer's listings there except for an upcoming release (in a few days) of the Sonatas of fortepiano, a 2-disc Brilliant production - the recording is already available on Spotify, thus an upcoming listen and possibly a purchase?  Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PSRrmwm9L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515UOqK9%2BhL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8191kgzlW7L._SL1500_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mZWidPx%2BL._SL1050_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61MPzyLNWRL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BJeYIWg3L._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2020, 11:19:21 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2020, 09:20:51 AM
Eberl, Anton (1765-1807) - searching this thread, Eberl's last post was about 6 years ago, so anything new?  The first 4 (3 top; 1 bottom left) are in my current collection - I decided to 'cull out' the 3-CD set of John Khouri (much better fortepianos exit) - SO, I was exploring Amazon today and not much has been added to this composer's listings there except for an upcoming release (in a few days) of the Sonatas of fortepiano, a 2-disc Brilliant production - the recording is already available on Spotify, thus an upcoming listen and possibly a purchase?  Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PSRrmwm9L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515UOqK9%2BhL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8191kgzlW7L._SL1500_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mZWidPx%2BL._SL1050_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61MPzyLNWRL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BJeYIWg3L._SL1200_.jpg)

That Brilliant set looks nice. I don't have any of his solo pianoforte works, nor have even heard them, but he was a student of Haydn, who thought very highly of him, and what I have heard, I liked. Write me about the Khouri: I love crappy old fortepianos! :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2020, 12:37:56 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2020, 11:19:21 AM
That Brilliant set looks nice. I don't have any of his solo pianoforte works, nor have even heard them, but he was a student of Haydn, who thought very highly of him, and what I have heard, I liked. Write me about the Khouri: I love crappy old fortepianos! :D

8)

LOL!  :laugh:  Well, I'm more tolerant of 'restored' original PIs vs. reproductions which I expect to just sound better.  I probably donated the Khouri set a few years ago after a third or so listen - cannot quite recall my main complaints but just felt that portions were 'unpleasant' - attached are reviews, both positive and negative; Jerry Dubins is in the latter category; another quoted below from Amazon gave me a chuckle.  Both Amazon and BRO have the 3-CD set for about $18.

At the moment, I'm listening to the 2-CD Brilliant offering w/ Luca Quintavalle on Spotify - he performs on a Paul McNulty copy of an 1805 Walter fortepiano (more info in the other attachment) - listening on headphones (not to disturb Susan - ;)) - there are 7 Sonatas on two discs; at times, the sound seems somewhat distant and cavernous in the softer passages; plenty of dynamics; an excellent fortepiano - now the physical CDs vs. Spotify streaming likely makes a difference in my past experience - so, I'd like to see some reviews before committing to a purchase but am enjoying.  Dave :)

QuoteI only have to say that I wrote to the company that released this records to ask for an explanation of how this atrocity could be presented to the public. The sound of these "instruments" is simply disastrous. I have heard beautiful fortepianos ( look in Amazon for Viviana Sofronitzky's Mozart's piano concerti) and there is no possible explanation of why Khouri's are such an awful mess.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 13, 2020, 08:07:58 AM
Fesca, Friedrich Ernst (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Ernst_Fesca) (1789-1826) and his son, Alexander Ernst Fesca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fesca) (1820-1849) - continuing to go through my collection and now up to this father-son duo, both tragically dying young from 'lung disease' (father had TB; less specific about the son - check links, if interested).  Friedrich Fesca belongs here basically bridging the deaths of Mozart & Beethoven; his son into the Romantic era.  Below are the recordings I own and not much else has appeared on Amazon nor is available on Spotify (there is one disc of Friedrich's Op. 1 SQs w/ the Authentic SQ).

But since not much has appeared in these pages on F. Fesca (and in a while), the father was a virtuoso violinist, serving as the concert master in a number of orchestras and royal courts. As a composer, he wrote both instrumental and vocal works, including 16 String Quartets, 4 String Quintets, and 4 Flute Quartets (List HERE (https://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Friedrich_Ernst_Fesca)).  Now listening to his Symphonies having completed the 3-CD CPO set of half of his String Quartets w/ the Diogenes Quartett; apparently, another 'box' of the remaining quartets was planned?  Reviews of the SQs have been mixed w/ a rather 'snarky' putdown by Jerry Dubins, but several others with excellent comments (see attachment) - I'm sure that both father and son, if each had lived longer, would have provided future listeners w/ a lot more enjoyable music.  Dave

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/517R9-rMCxL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61UY9QwGGyL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Upxv%2BQamL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KR0f5qI6L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61q0dxIphDL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515JDDLdTuL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2020, 09:09:09 AM
Well, still going through my collection and at the end of the 'Gs' w/ the composer shown below:

Gyrowetz, Adalbert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalbert_Gyrowetz) (1763-1850) - have owned the same 5 CDs for a while, all of which have been posted in this thread earlier (but last comments from 7+ years ago!) - the link presents a short bio - he was a long lived respected and prolific composer; his 'hero' was Haydn, so despite living to the mid-19th century, his composing harks back to the late classical era.  His compositions include nearly 30 operas, more than 60 Symphonies, 60 or so SQs, 40 Piano Trios, and likely much more not listed in his bio.  I was somewhat amazed in looking on Amazon USA this morning in that not much new has been added (and my purchases date back 10 years or so) - for those interested, reviews attached of the SQs & Symphonies.  Dave :)

P.S. for us 'beer drinkers', Gyrowetz was born in the Bohemia town of Budweis (now České Budějovice in the Czech Republic) where brewing dates back to the 13th century; one of the breweries there is Budweiser Budvar Brewery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budweiser_Budvar_Brewery); of course, some interesting 'legal issues' w/ Anheuser-Busch in the USA, discussed briefly in the brewery link; now I've not tried their beer but am sure (to my taste) that it would be my preference over the American 'Budweiser' product -  8)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51rw63UbwtL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61RpMRftNzL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ly3v5KstL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TfXrh-arL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61jJQQcfCnL._SL1000_.jpg)  (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Budvar-mug.JPG/1024px-Budvar-mug.JPG)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2020, 10:27:29 AM
Hey, Dave,
It really isn't easy to add to your Gyrowetz collection, I had to really work at it when I wanted some symphonies for my Haydn in London essays (he caused several to be played). But I found this one in an online store in Prague. Nice to know how to spell his name in Bohemian... :D

(https://i.imgur.com/U20tvWw.jpg)

BTW, I would take one of those beers, please. :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2020, 11:43:15 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2020, 09:09:09 AM
P.S. for us 'beer drinkers', Gyrowetz was born in the Bohemia town of Budweis (now České Budějovice in the Czech Republic) where brewing dates back to the 13th century; one of the breweries there is Budweiser Budvar Brewery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budweiser_Budvar_Brewery); of course, some interesting 'legal issues' w/ Anheuser-Busch in the USA, discussed briefly in the brewery link; now I've not tried their beer but am sure (to my taste) that it would be my preference over the American 'Budweiser' product -  8)

The Czech Budweiser is indeed excellent. I downed several pints in Prague and I was extremely happy and cheerful afterwards. I've never tried the American one but I doubt it could be better.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2020, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2020, 10:27:29 AM
Hey, Dave,
It really isn't easy to add to your Gyrowetz collection, I had to really work at it when I wanted some symphonies for my Haydn in London essays (he caused several to be played). But I found this one in an online store in Prague. Nice to know how to spell his name in Bohemian... :D

(https://i.imgur.com/U20tvWw.jpg)

BTW, I would take one of those beers, please. :)

8)

Hi Gurn - yep, I saw the spelling of his 'real' name in the Wiki article and from liner notes of the CDs in my collection; plus, I also saw the CD above on Amazon this morning, but was 'unavailable' there (have not check anyplace across the pond).  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2020, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2020, 11:43:15 AM
The Czech Budweiser is indeed excellent. I downed several pints in Prague and I was extremely happy and cheerful afterwards. I've never tried the American one but I doubt it could be better.

Hi Andrei - I know that Czech Bud would be delicious - I do occasionally buy a 6-pack of the country's Pilsner Urquell which is readily available in my area; also like Stella Artois from Belgium, often found 'on tap' here - just guessing, but I would suspect that you would be disappointed in the American Budweiser.

BUT, the USA is challenging Europe for the quality of beer produced - now, not talking about the GIGANTIC producers like Anheuser-Busch, but the much smaller craft breweries that have opened in the last decade or so - just looking at my state of North Carolina; there are now 300 or so NC Breweries (https://ncbeer.org) now in business, about a dozen or more in the Piedmont area - being a fan of 'hoppy' IPAs (Indian Pale Ales), a favorite is made in my home town by Foothills Brewery (https://www.foothillsbrewing.com) (Hoppyum shown below) - much activity is occurring in Charlotte and Asheville - SO, for those 'beer lovers' visiting America, my strong recommendation is to try out these local craft beer producers rather than the major brands.  Dave :)

(https://www.totalwine.com/dynamic/490x/media/sys_master/twmmedia/hd1/h63/11941481349150.png)  (https://res.cloudinary.com/saucey/image/upload/v1479321679/vbabhvxsd97bfqwatg2s.jpg)  (http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/42-Hoppyum-Foothills.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2020, 07:13:44 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2020, 02:08:31 PM
Hi Andrei - I know that Czech Bud would be delicious - I do occasionally buy a 6-pack of the country's Pilsner Urquell which is readily available in my area; also like Stella Artois from Belgium, often found 'on tap' here - just guessing, but I would suspect that you would be disappointed in the American Budweiser.

BUT, the USA is challenging Europe for the quality of beer produced - now, not talking about the GIGANTIC producers like Anheuser-Busch, but the much smaller craft breweries that have opened in the last decade or so - just looking at my state of North Carolina; there are now 300 or so NC Breweries (https://ncbeer.org) now in business, about a dozen or more in the Piedmont area - being a fan of 'hoppy' IPAs (Indian Pale Ales), a favorite is made in my home town by Foothills Brewery (https://www.foothillsbrewing.com) (Hoppyum shown below) - much activity is occurring in Charlotte and Asheville - SO, for those 'beer lovers' visiting America, my strong recommendation is to try out these local craft beer producers rather than the major brands.  Dave :)

I'm a very big Stella Artois fan, always have a '6' in the fridge.  As I mentioned elsewhere last night, New Belgium 'Fat Tire' Amber Ale is another favorite, along with Dos Equis (XX) green bottle lager and Amber Ale. XX is consistently excellent, it's my 'go-to' when the selection is otherwise limited.   Your other, Pilsner Urquell, would very likely be a favorite too, if they sold it around here. :(

8)

PS - This is all on-topic, since 'Gurn's Classical Corner' is also the name of my taproom... :D :D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2020, 07:36:11 PM
+1!  ;D
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Florestan on March 04, 2020, 03:42:43 AM
I too like IPAs. The best I've tasted so far is an English one named Shepherd Neame.

(https://res.cloudinary.com/ratebeer/image/upload/e_trim:1/d_beer_img_default.png,f_auto/beer_191772)

I used to like Stella Artois when it was imported from Belgium. Since they've started to brew it here in Romania under licence the quality has declined and lately it's been very rarely that I drank it.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mookalafalas on March 11, 2020, 04:20:38 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2020, 02:08:31 PM
Hi Andrei - I know that Czech Bud would be delicious - I do occasionally buy a 6-pack of the country's Pilsner Urquell which is readily available in my area; also like Stella Artois from Belgium, often found 'on tap' here - just guessing, but I would suspect that you would be disappointed in the American Budweiser.
Not what I was expecting when I decided to dip into this thread, but quite this post was a bit of an eye opener. I live in a city in southern Taiwan. Beer is not too popular, and quality is not high, in general, but the convenience store next to my house has this Czech beer, and my city's "foreign" restaurant has Stella on tap. A surprising congruence.  Is it coincidence, or is this an indication that the international threshold on beer quality is going up? Perhaps Pilsner Urquell and Stella are the new Bud and Miller.   
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2020, 06:25:55 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on March 11, 2020, 04:20:38 AM
  Not what I was expecting when I decided to dip into this thread, but quite this post was a bit of an eye opener. I live in a city in southern Taiwan. Beer is not too popular, and quality is not high, in general, but the convenience store next to my house has this Czech beer, and my city's "foreign" restaurant has Stella on tap. A surprising congruence.  Is it coincidence, or is this an indication that the international threshold on beer quality is going up? Perhaps Pilsner Urquell and Stella are the new Bud and Miller.

Good question: that would be a blessing upon the whole world! There is always the sad POV that products of high quality are killed by their own success, and nothing is more fragile than beer. Stella Artois have been around since the 14th century, hopefully its new popularity won't be the cause for its demise. :(

Beyond that, you are right to be surprised at our topic of conversation here. Apparently, lovers of music of the late 18th century also share Balakirev's opinion of Haydn (note my sidebar if you previously hadn't).  :D

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 17, 2020, 01:59:21 PM
Well, back to business (although that English IPA sounds delicious!) - still going through my classical music collection doing some culling, updating, and few additions (want to downsize!) - took me a week to evaluate my Haydn CDs - now on a composer that does not seem to have been discussed much if at all in this thread:

Hofmann, Leopold (1738-1793) - a Vienna native and gifted musical talent early in life (see edited quote below - much more in the link, if interested).  Hofmann was well respected in his lifetime and held a number of important positions (vying even w/ Mozart) - he composed much instrumental music, mainly Symphonies (over 60) and Concertos (over 80) (see HERE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Hofmann)) - along w/ Haydn in the late 1750s/early 1760s, he is considered an important influence on the emergence of this genre in the classical era.  In Ph.D theses, his symphonic and concerto works have been catalogued by George Cook Kimball and Allan Bradley (see previous link).

For myself, I have a half dozen recordings (all on Naxos) - listened to the Symphonies and Flute Concertos (2 volumes) this afternoon (the latter are just excellent); my other discs are shown below.  Looking on Amazon today, not much else is available - Naxos has recently come out w/ more Flute Concertos, i.e. a V. 3 w/ different performers - available on Spotify, so will take a listen rather than a purchase.  Dave :)

QuoteLeopold Hofmann was regarded as one of the most gifted and influential composers of his generation. Although a church musician by profession, Hofmann was also an important and prolific composer of instrumental music. His symphonies, concertos and chamber works were played all over Europe and the avidity with which they were collected is attested to by the large number of manuscript copies which have survived. The son of a senior civil servant, Hofmann revealed his musical abilities early on and at the age of seven joined the chapel of the Empress Elisabeth Christine as a chorister. As a member of the chapel he received an extensive musical education studying keyboard - and later composition - with Georg Christoph Wagenseil, one of the brightest starts in the Viennese musical firmament, and violin, possibly with Giuseppe Trani, Dittersdorf's teacher. ( edited - Source (https://www.artaria.com/pages/hofmann-leopold-1738-1793))

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71pcotx8BIL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://www.boosey.com/imagesw/shop/product/$wm1_700x0_$_8554747_cov.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tzirkxkKL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51iX9f-cyZL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BrE-om4jL.jpg)  (https://img.discogs.com/5jy29JE3wQ9kyhvKpIjR_ee4i2c=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-14354251-1572821803-2223.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mookalafalas on March 18, 2020, 01:10:05 AM
Can you compare Hofmann to anyone? I'm curious where he fits in.  I've been listening to some Krommer off and on from the CPO label (another neglected figure from the high classical period) and for some reason link him to Hofmann, although I don't know why.
  Actually, lately I've been thinking of going mainstream. I'm something of a contrarian, and have sort of always resisted Mozart, probably because he is so often pointed to as the ne plus ultra of musical genius--especially by those who don't really listen to classical music at all.
   Anyway, I recently sort of stumbled into some WAM that I'd never heard (the organ sonatas in the big Paillard box, for example), and had to smack myself for being such a dunce. I started listening to various disks floating around my collection, and realized, duh, Mozart is awesome. I bought the Brilliant Haydn box several years ago, and its been an investment that never stops paying back. So I looked into the Brilliant WAM boxes.  There was a 170 disk 2005 version used on German Amazon for 32 Pounds! I am having it shipped to my home in Taiwan for $50, cost+shipping. Insane. I'm oddly excited about it. If my university goes into full lockdown mode, maybe I will just binge on Mozart for a few weeks.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: steve ridgway on March 18, 2020, 08:22:33 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on March 18, 2020, 01:10:05 AM
Anyway, I recently sort of stumbled into some WAM that I'd never heard (the organ sonatas in the big Paillard box, for example), and had to smack myself for being such a dunce. I started listening to various disks floating around my collection, and realized, duh, Mozart is awesome. I bought the Brilliant Haydn box several years ago, and its been an investment that never stops paying back. So I looked into the Brilliant WAM boxes.  There was a 170 disk 2005 version used on German Amazon for 32 Pounds! I am having it shipped to my home in Taiwan for $50, cost+shipping. Insane. I'm oddly excited about it. If my university goes into full lockdown mode, maybe I will just binge on Mozart for a few weeks.

Ignoring Mozart for many years may prove to have been a very profitable strategy ;D.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 18, 2020, 08:50:58 AM
Quote from: Mookalafalas on March 18, 2020, 01:10:05 AM
Can you compare Hofmann to anyone? I'm curious where he fits in.  I've been listening to some Krommer off and on from the CPO label (another neglected figure from the high classical period) and for some reason link him to Hofmann, although I don't know why.
  Actually, lately I've been thinking of going mainstream. I'm something of a contrarian, and have sort of always resisted Mozart, probably because he is so often pointed to as the ne plus ultra of musical genius--especially by those who don't really listen to classical music at all.
   Anyway, I recently sort of stumbled into some WAM that I'd never heard (the organ sonatas in the big Paillard box, for example), and had to smack myself for being such a dunce. I started listening to various disks floating around my collection, and realized, duh, Mozart is awesome. I bought the Brilliant Haydn box several years ago, and its been an investment that never stops paying back. So I looked into the Brilliant WAM boxes.  There was a 170 disk 2005 version used on German Amazon for 32 Pounds! I am having it shipped to my home in Taiwan for $50, cost+shipping. Insane. I'm oddly excited about it. If my university goes into full lockdown mode, maybe I will just binge on Mozart for a few weeks.

Hello - way back on the first page of this thread in 2009, Gurn left two posts w/ a list of 'classical era' composers born between 1730-1770 - below I've combined the list of about 50 names total; for myself, I own music of nearly 30 of these composers, including Leopold Hofmann - so, there were plenty of individuals writing music similar to the Viennese 'Holy Trinity' of Haydn, Mozart, & Beethoven (although not usually at their levels).  However, Hofmann was a well respected Viennese composer during his best years and likely would have been talked about in the 'same breath' as Haydn (see the attached reviews of a number of the recordings posted earlier for some more biographical comments).

Thus, there are many composers on the list below that were writing music in a similar manner, e.g. Ditters, Vanhal, Pichl, or Stamitz, just to mention a few from the same generation as Hofmann.  After listening to Leopold's recordings the last couple of days, he indeed wrote some excellent music - the 'Flute Concertos, are wonderful; in fact, I just listened to the recently released Naxos V. 3 (added below) off Spotify (different performers) and enjoyed (plus, no duplications) - don't know if you use Spotify, but all of Hofmann's CDs are available for a listen.  Dave

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-sfhpNft/0/2f22ca0e/O/ClassicalComposers1.png)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91wFhIn1saL._SL1500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on March 18, 2020, 09:09:37 AM
One flute concerto by Hofmann was attributed to Haydn until some time ago. I used to have this one on a Collegium aureum recording from the 1970s but eventually got rid of it (mostly because I found the fortepiano Demus played in the famous D major Haydn pc hard to listen to) and this was probably the only Hofmann piece I ever listened to.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mookalafalas on March 18, 2020, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on March 18, 2020, 08:22:33 AM
Ignoring Mozart for many years may prove to have been a very profitable strategy ;D.

    :) I'm not sure about "profitable", but perhaps "economical".  And I probably overstated my case a bit--I have a quite a few of his symphonies and Piano Concertos, but very little of his chamber music, trios, quartets, etc. whereas I have tons in LvB and Haydn.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Mookalafalas on March 18, 2020, 10:11:29 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 18, 2020, 08:50:58 AM
Hello - way back on the first page of this thread in 2009, Gurn left two posts w/ a list of 'classical era' composers born between 1730-1770 - below I've combined the list of about 50 names total; for myself, I own music of nearly 30 of these composers, including Leopold Hofmann - so, there were plenty of individuals writing music similar to the Viennese 'Holy Trinity' of Haydn, Mozart, & Beethoven (although not usually at their levels).  However, Hofmann was a well respected Viennese composer during his best years and likely would have been talked about in the 'same breath' as Haydn (see the attached reviews of a number of the recordings posted earlier for some more biographical comments).

Thus, there are many composers on the list below that were writing music in a similar manner, e.g. Ditters, Vanhal, Pichl, or Stamitz, just to mention a few from the same generation as Hofmann.  After listening to Leopold's recordings the last couple of days, he indeed wrote some excellent music - the 'Flute Concertos, are wonderful; in fact, I just listened to the recently released Naxos V. 3 (added below) off Spotify (different performers) and enjoyed (plus, no duplications) - don't know if you use Spotify, but all of Hofmann's CDs are available for a listen.  Dave

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-sfhpNft/0/2f22ca0e/O/ClassicalComposers1.png)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91wFhIn1saL._SL1500_.jpg)

   Thanks for that list! I will copy it into my listening journal for reference.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 18, 2020, 11:28:24 AM
Hoffmeister, Franz Anton (1754-1812) - Viennese music publisher, composer, musician, and namesake of one of Mozart's SQs - just started to review my collection which has increased to 10 discs; despite being more famous as a prominent Viennese publisher, he was a prolific composer as seen from a list of his works below, and quite talented in that endeavor - short bio HERE (https://www.artaria.com/pages/hoffmeister-franz-anton-1754-1812), for those interested.  First five discs up for a listen are clarinet and flute works (the last, an MP3 purchase).  Dave :)

Flute Concertos - 25 at least
Flute Duets - 131
Flute Sonatas - 39
Operas - 8 at least
Piano Concertos - 14 or more
String Quartets - 34 or more
String Quintets - 15 at least
Symphonies - 50 or more

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61NTW3KvBTL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BOCItdmJL._SL1430_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YNe4iRz%2BL.jpg) 

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61JS6HWBe-L.jpg)  (https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273923a051acbe415567d1730a2)

Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 19, 2020, 09:24:43 AM
Hoffmeister - Part 2 - today listening to the rest of my collection of this classical era Viennese publisher and composer - reviews are attached; despite writing over 50 Symphonies, the Bamert disc below and one w/ Griffiths (well reviewed by Dubins in Fanfare) (which has one work duplicated) are all that seem to be available, and even if the compositions are considered 'second tier', remember the competition was brutal at the time - ;)  Dave

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kPFGF-aTL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xy5AzW67L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71cQe1xrwEL._SL1067_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ldizr04tL._SL1397_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/710RAFPfN3L._SL1050_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on March 19, 2020, 10:06:50 AM
Of Hoffmeister's I have one Naxos discs with quartets that I found surprisingly good. And one with wind serenades on cpo that is rather slight music but entertaining. There is one piece with a similar joke as Haydn's Farewell symphony with the players entering and leaving "single file".
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2020, 10:53:21 AM
I have several of the disks mentioned above, I rather like Hoffmeister, he is a very fine second tier composer, and he was a help to Mozart back when he needed to get works published. I have also this really pretty good disk, which I got for the Michael Haydn music, but ended up particularly liking for the Hoffmeister symphony!

(https://i.imgur.com/ki8tPq0.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2020, 11:04:27 AM
Also to mention, this 3 disk set which we have talked about before (a long time ago, IIRC), which has 2 sinfonias concertante by Hoffmeister: 1 for clarinet & bassoon, the other for 2 clarinets. This is a nice box to have anyway, there is a bunch of good music on it!

(https://i.imgur.com/CvMrryH.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 19, 2020, 11:33:47 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the recommendations - about through w/ my Hoffmeister listening - finishing w/ the Wind Serenades w/ Klocker and team!

Yesterday while on BRO, I ordered 3 more Hoffmeister CDs (one a double-disc), first ones shown below, then added a Naxos disc from Amazon, all w/ excellent Fanfare reviews (can post for those who may be interested) - so, a rather 'inexpensive' purchase spree - :)  Dave

P.S. Bro also had a 3rd V. of the piano sonatas w/ the same performer - decided two was enough - ;)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51t6dCx%2BxXL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61L%2BRgdxZML.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61gUzLUh3ML.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tpwwOvriL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2020, 11:44:10 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 19, 2020, 11:33:47 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the recommendations - about through w/ my Hoffmeister listening - finishing w/ the Wind Serenades w/ Klocker and team!

Yesterday while on BRO, I ordered 3 more Hoffmeister CDs (one a double-disc), first ones shown below, then added a Naxos disc from Amazon, all w/ excellent Fanfare reviews (can post for those who may be interested) - so, a rather 'inexpensive' purchase spree - :)  Dave

P.S. Bro also had a 3rd V. of the piano sonatas w/ the same performer - decided two was enough - ;)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51t6dCx%2BxXL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61L%2BRgdxZML.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61gUzLUh3ML.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tpwwOvriL.jpg)

Yeah, I was late to the party!  :-\  Tell me, are those sonata disks on pianoforte (fortepiano) or on modern piano? If on fortepiano, I will snap them up myself. I have a few disks on Grand Piano (Turk's sonatas, for example) and they are really quite good.

Cheers,
8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 19, 2020, 12:00:35 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2020, 11:44:10 AM
Yeah, I was late to the party!  :-\  Tell me, are those sonata disks on pianoforte (fortepiano) or on modern piano? If on fortepiano, I will snap them up myself. I have a few disks on Grand Piano (Turk's sonatas, for example) and they are really quite good.

Cheers,
8)

Hi Gurn - I've attached the 3 Fanfare reviews and the recordings are listed as (pn), so assume a modern piano; plus, reading the reviews yesterday before my purchase, I don't remember that the type of piano was mentioned (but may have missed it?) - also here is the Grand Piano website (https://grandpianorecords.com/Album/AlbumDetails/GP666) - my brief perusal does not reveal PI vs. MI for the piano although I've not looked thoroughly - hope this helps (a little).  Dave
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: JBS on March 19, 2020, 12:08:14 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 19, 2020, 12:00:35 PM
Hi Gurn - I've attached the 3 Fanfare reviews and the recordings are listed as (pn), so assume a modern piano; plus, reading the reviews yesterday before my purchase, I don't remember that the type of piano was mentioned (but may have missed it?) - also here is the Grand Piano website (https://grandpianorecords.com/Album/AlbumDetails/GP666) - my brief perusal does not reveal PI vs. MI for the piano although I've not looked thoroughly - hope this helps (a little).  Dave

The trailer for volume 1 shows her playing a Steinway.

My impression of Grand Piano is that all their releases are on modern piano, no matter who the composer might be,
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2020, 12:25:32 PM
Quote from: JBS on March 19, 2020, 12:08:14 PM
The trailer for volume 1 shows her playing a Steinway.

My impression of Grand Piano is that all their releases are on modern piano, no matter who the composer might be,

I know you would think that, but the Turk sonatas say 'piano' but they are on fortepiano. I'm not where I could dig out the disk right now, but I would remember if they weren't (well, I wouldn't have bought them).  It would be so easy to just tell you up front. Equally so if you DIDN'T want fortepiano! 

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2020, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 19, 2020, 12:00:35 PM
Hi Gurn - I've attached the 3 Fanfare reviews and the recordings are listed as (pn), so assume a modern piano; plus, reading the reviews yesterday before my purchase, I don't remember that the type of piano was mentioned (but may have missed it?) - also here is the Grand Piano website (https://grandpianorecords.com/Album/AlbumDetails/GP666) - my brief perusal does not reveal PI vs. MI for the piano although I've not looked thoroughly - hope this helps (a little).  Dave

Thanks, Dave. Doing the research now. BRO is useless for such things. They have a Vanhal disk on GP that is equally interesting, but also only says 'piano'... :-\

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 24, 2020, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2020, 12:27:07 PM
Thanks, Dave. Doing the research now. BRO is useless for such things. They have a Vanhal disk on GP that is equally interesting, but also only says 'piano'... :-\

8)

Well, the BRO order arrived yesterday and now listening to the Hoffmeister recordings below (I've re-attached the reviews and included one on the clarinet sonatas).  Concerning Biliana Tzinlikova in the solo keyboard works, the booklets simply state 'Piano', although the pics included have her next to a modern piano - the sound of the instrument certainly is modern, but she plays in a more classical mode w/ little use of the pedals to my ears.  Interestingly, she is on the faculty at the University Mozarteum in Salzburg (LINK (https://www.uni-mozarteum.at/people.php?p=51448)), so likely quite use to performing on different keyboard instruments; the works on her first two CDs are all from the 1790s, thus 'why not use' a fortepiano?  An email address is listed in that link - could send her a brief note (have been pretty lucky in getting responses from artists)?

The 2-CD set of Clarinet/Piano Sonatas is well done (the attached review is actually of two competing recordings coming out at a similar time - unusual for this accelerated interest in Franz Anton?) - Claudia Bracco plays a Steinway piano; Luigi Magistrelli performs on 3 different clarinets (C, B Flat, & A - mostly on the C), from the first half of the 20th century, i.e. 1916, 1930, & 1956 - SO, if the music is of interest to you, not period instruments.  Happy 'hunting' @ BRO!  Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61L%2BRgdxZML.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61gUzLUh3ML.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51t6dCx%2BxXL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2020, 11:09:00 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 24, 2020, 11:00:20 AM
Well, the BRO order arrived yesterday and now listening to the Hoffmeister recordings below (I've re-attached the reviews and included one on the clarinet sonatas).  Concerning Biliana Tzinlikova in the solo keyboard works, the booklets simply state 'Piano', although the pics included have her next to a modern piano - the sound of the instrument certainly is modern, but she plays in a more classical mode w/ little use of the pedals to my ears.  Interestingly, she is on the faculty at the University Mozarteum in Salzburg (LINK (https://www.uni-mozarteum.at/people.php?p=51448)), so likely quite use to performing on different keyboard instruments; the works on her first two CDs are all from the 1790s, thus 'why not use' a fortepiano?  An email address is listed in that link - could send her a brief note (have been pretty lucky in getting responses from artists)?

The 2-CD set of Clarinet/Piano Sonatas is well done (the attached review is actually of two competing recordings coming out at a similar time - unusual for this accelerated interest in Franz Anton?) - Claudia Bracco plays a Steinway piano; Luigi Magistrelli performs on 3 different clarinets (C, B Flat, & A - mostly on the C), from the first half of the 20th century, i.e. 1916, 1930, & 1956 - SO, if the music is of interest to you, not period instruments.  Happy 'hunting' @ BRO!  Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61L%2BRgdxZML.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61gUzLUh3ML.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51t6dCx%2BxXL.jpg)

Thanks for that info, Dave. One thing I have learned over the years of trying to make informed judgments about instruments used: if they don't talk about the instruments, then they are modern. PI people are proud to let you know what they were playing that day. MI people don't seem to care. Hell, even if I was an MI person, I would still want to know what kind of piano you played! :o  Just like Badura-Skoda, when he played a modern piano (which he did surprisingly often) he would tell you that it was nearly always an Imperial Bösendorfer. A hell of a piano in its own right, but I digress... :)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 25, 2020, 11:47:37 AM
Jadin, Hyacinthe (1776-1800) - Solo KB Sonatas, String Quartets & String Trios w/ the performers shown below - this short-lived French composer (died at 24 y/o from tuberculosis) has been discussed before in this thread but almost 10 years ago - looked back on my posts then and have virtually the same recordings; the KB Sonatas are on fortepianos - the Fuller is a 3-disc set that was an MP3 DL for me - just checked Amazon and not much new has appeared.  Reviews attached of some of the CDs shown.  Dave :)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41mwQ6lsQnL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lsCnZEezL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81h85zdgNOL._SS500_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41TGKZT88JL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 27, 2020, 02:10:27 PM
Kozeluch, Leopold (1747-1818) - Bohemian composer, pianist, and teacher who moved to Vienna in 1778, spending the rest of his life there as a popular musical figure - held a number of royal appointments including replacing Mozart as the court composer.  He lived a long life and was a prolific composer in many genres - see quote below from the link given. 

As usual, a 'forgotten' composer after his death who is seeing somewhat of a 're-birth' - I own about 10 discs shown below (note 4 of his symphonies are part of a box w/ others included - no duplication w/ the Bamert recording; plus, Naxos seems to have started a series - but I enjoy his chamber and keyboard works more); will be looking on Amazon for any new/replacements.  Dave :)

QuoteThe classical composer Leopold Koželuch left around 400 compositions. Among these there are about thirty symphonies, twenty-two piano concertos, including a concerto for piano four-hands, two clarinet concertos, twenty-four violin sonatas, sixty-three piano trios, six string quartets, two oratorios, nine cantatas and various liturgical works. Among his music there are also operas and works for ballet, which—with the exception of one opera —have yet to be heard in recent years. Koželuch's substantial output of keyboard compositions reflected the promotion of his reputation as a specialist keyboard virtuoso. By contrast, the musicologist Allan Badley labels Koželuch's symphonic compositions as "modest by the standards of the time". His works are currently cataloged using Poštolka numbers, after the work of the musicologist Milan Poštolka. (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Leopold_Ko%C5%BEeluch))

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91O6DhwKYpL._AC_UY218_ML3_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8191kgzlW7L._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61shi5T-QdL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51mMMWvbc7L.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71oHUOM7TzL._SL1000_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Xq5BY9poL._SL1200_.jpg)  (http://)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71j6HA80MzL._SY355_.jpg)  (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk5ODkxNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NTA4NzUwMTl9)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 28, 2020, 10:03:27 AM
Kozeluch - Fortepiano Sonatas - Brilliant is about to release V. 3 of Jenny Kim's recordings of the keyboard sonatas; her first 2 volumes totaled 4 discs (Sonatas 1-16); this next release will contain 4 discs (Sonatas 17-33) listed at a bargain price on Amazon USA.  Now, the label Grand Piano has released 12 CDs of the composer's complete KB sonata cycle (about 50 works) from 2013-2018 w/ Kemp English also on fortepiano - these are available individually (first & last shown below), so a MAJOR investment - just sent Grand Piano an email asking about plans to put the dozen discs in an inexpensive box - anxious for a response - I listened to his Vs.1/2 on Spotify this morning and was impressed - but either set will do; if I receive a NO answer, then will likely purchase the upcoming Brilliant release.  Anyone listening to these recordings - comparative comments?  Dave :)
.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71%2BgYC5KgZL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615hwe1rwXL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1nu8edcAcL._SS500_.jpg)

ADDENDUM: (Apr 16) - well, I heard from Grand Piano about the Kemp English CDs - willing to give me a bulk discount (did not want single jewel boxes, so did not ask 'how much'), but no plans to box them into a much slimmer package.  Thus, I decided to order the new Jenny Kim V. 3 which has 4 CDs for $13 + S/H - quote below of the Amazon description of the set.

QuoteLeopold Koeluch (1747-1818) was a Bohemian composer-pianist who moved to Vienna in 1778, three years before Mozart settled there. The sonatas (49 in total) share qualities with the work of his teacher Dussek, and Burneys contemporary assessment of Kozeluchs music stands true today: natural, graceful and flowing, without imitating any great model, as almost all his contemporaries have done. His modulation is natural and pleasing His rhythm is well phrased, his accents well placed, and harmony pure. Volume 3 covers Sonatas Nos.17-33, written between 1785 and 1791. No less than Haydns work in the genre, they invent ever-new and imaginative forms. The two-movement No.18 contrasts a gentle set of variations with a dashing Allegro; the three-movement No.19 in F minor opens with a grave slow movement introducing a passionate, exploratory Allegro agitato; the A major No.20 returns to the free-spirited pastoral idiom of Kozeluchs background, with a lilting opening Allegro, a reflective but smiling Adagio and freewheeling finale. Such variety of form and temperament continues throughout the collection. Jenny Soonjin Kim plays with an almost Baroque flair well-fitting of the music The period treatment that Kim brings to the kozeluch Koeluch sonatas gives them a crisp texture and very nearly tactile character... Kim's performance is commanding and authoritative. The sonics are superb an inspired and inspiring collection. (All About Jazz, reviewing volume 1) Kims playing is crystalline and lyrical, with exquisitely sensitive phrasing. She is an assured virtuoso who interprets Koeluchs music beautifully. This set will interest pianists who would like to augment their repertoire with unknown gems from the period. (Early Music America) On this album Jenny Soonjin Kim plays a modern German copy of an Anton Walter fortepiano made in Vienna in 1795. (Source Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Keyboard-Sonatas-Jenny-Soonjin/dp/B0848QR1MN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3O81Q4N19G2D&dchild=1&keywords=kozeluch+sonatas&qid=1587058698&s=music&sprefix=koz%2Cpopular%2C162&sr=1-2))
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 16, 2020, 10:14:57 AM
Mozart & Beethoven Piano Wind Quintets, Op. 452 & Op. 16, respectively.  Over the decades, I have culled/replaced these works several times or more - now own the 3 sets below (also have a Gaudier Ensemble disc of Wolfie's wind chamber works w/ the Quintet).

The Musica Omnia recording is the only one w/ fortepiano - so, question about other 'period instrument' favorites of these two works?  Dave :)

(https://resources.tidal.com/images/d11ccbf2/443b/40dc/8ec3/11ea5949b4bb/320x320.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/711HOhakZ-L._SL1171_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61-CMfinf1L.jpg)  (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-578mSHg/0/40b8bf38/O/Mozart_Gaudier2.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: JBS on April 16, 2020, 10:39:02 AM
There are these two on Amazon. I haven't heard either.
[asin]B002AC4XWC[/asin]
[Il Gardellino on Accent]
[asin]B07D35BG5D[/asin]

Also one with Robert Levin that seems to OOP.

I was going to suggest a CD from Brilliant, but I had forgot that it's an MI recording (Klara Wurtz/Netherlands Wind Soloists)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2020, 01:07:06 PM
These are the 4 I've hung on to. None of them suck, and for various reasons, not least that there are some first-rate players in all of them. Sound quality is pretty consistent, maybe (?) the Octophoros has a bit rawer sound than the others, but it may help more than hurt. I'll tell you though, if you could take a player from each wind group and match them up with the keyboardist of your choice, you would have a hell of a band! :D

(https://i.imgur.com/EbqxVio.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/XsD2Cg8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fFq0WHO.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/HLTWKRb.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 16, 2020, 01:16:53 PM
Thanks Guys - seems to be some good choices; Gurn - I had the Helicon Winds and culled it out when I added and preferred the Penelope Crawford recording - will certainly review the others - Dave :)

ADDENDUM:  Well, I'm currently listening to the Ensemble Dialoghi on Spotify (streaming to my good speakers) - a wonderful performance, although I'd like the fortepiano (played by the gal in the 2nd pic below) to be a little more forward and louder - winds seem to 'drown out' the keyboard in most of these PI recordings, IMO - but I must say that this likely is one of the better PI choices (possibly topping my Penelope Crawford CD - would have to do a comparison, however) - attached are two excellent reviews, for those interested - should I buy the physical disc, DL an MP3 for 10 bucks, or just put a playlist together on Spotify?  Dave :)

P.S. I must admit that the cover art on the CD is bizarre (apparently explained in the booklet notes according to one or more of the reviews).

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71itv7mLJRL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://www.highresaudio.com/imgcache/9763e34df32708e25cd37a7787d6b3b9/hrp4ij-ensembledi-master.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 20, 2020, 11:00:29 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 21, 2012, 02:25:02 PM
..........
Pichl, Vaclav (1741-1805) - String Trios, Op. 7, N. 1-6 (2-discs) w/ Ensemble Agora; my set is stated to be on the Fermate label rather than the one shown below on Audite (apparently the two merged and are using the latter name, so same recording).

Pichl was a virtuoso violinst who arrived in Vienna in 1769, and apparently impressed Maria Theresia, who recommended him to a post in Milan; thus, an Italian interlude until his return to Vienna where he died in 1805.  As expected, string chamber music was a large part of his output, and his compositions include 18 SQs, 15 String Duos (violin & viola), 45 String Trios, and likely more?  Little of his work is available on Amazon and I assume much remains unrecorded (and/or lost?), unfortunately......................... (edited - shortened)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-kcnZwSH/0/O/PichlStringTrios.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51kDSoF7jnL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41quYdvsR5L.jpg)

Poor Pichl - not much in the Classical Corner on this Czech composer who died in Vienna - back in 2012, I left the post above (edited) w/ just the one pic of the 2-disc Audite set of String Trios; back then I soon added the Bamert Symphony disc, and also have the Dittersdorf bio book on my iPad which I re-read in January - Ditters and Pichl were good friends and there is much in the book about the latter.

Pichl was a prolific composer - shown below an incomplete list of his works (Source (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1clav_Pichl)) - my additions (in blue) from the Symphony booklet, adding numerous works from other genres; also, his 'Symphonies' were apparently in a mess and Anita Zakin put together a thematic catalog w/ the numbers shown (and hence the Z. numbering sometimes used).  Today looking on Amazon, there is not a whole lot more available, i.e. another Naxos Symphony disc of the pieces named after the Greek muses (except Diana) and a Clarinet Quartet disc (Op. 16 works on the list from the back cover description).  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-7nfjKPQ/0/43e5d86b/X3/PichlWorks-X3.png)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41GlURr2KHL.jpg)  (https://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10079.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 21, 2020, 09:53:04 AM
Platti, Giovanni (1697-1763) - now listening to my small collection of Platti's music (just 6 discs - 1 a double, shown below) - I noticed that he has not been discussed in this thread except for a post back in 2011, plus as an early transitional composer, i.e. Baroque-Early Classical (hopefully appropriate for this thread) - his keyboard music, especially when played on fortepiano anticipated some of the changes in that genre into the galant style and later.  I particularly like the first two CDs shown, i.e. the Epoca Barocca are excellent in these works (of course w/ the wonderful Azzolini on bassoon!).

In the Concerti per il Cembalo Obligato, Luca Guglielmi is performing on an outstanding sounding fortepiano, a copy by Kerstin Schwarz, 1997 after a 1726 original made none other than by Bartolomeo Cristofori - indeed, worth a listen; reviews of four of the recordings below are attached, along w/ a list of Platti's compositions cataloged by Alberto Iesuè (Wiki source).  Dave :)

QuoteGiovanni Benedetto Platti was born in Padua or Venice in 1692 or 1697. He was musically educated in Venice. His teachers were most probably Francesco Gasparini, Vivaldi, Lotti and indeed Albinoni and the Marcello brothers. There is no significant information about his life before he came to Würzburg in 1722 together with a group of Italian musicians. Johann Philipp Franz von Schönborn who was Prince-Bishop of Bamberg and Würzburg was deeply preoccupied with Italian music and wanted to expand the music at court. He employed a number of foreign musicians, mostly Italians. Together with Platti six further Italian musicians were employed in 1722. After the sudden death of the Prince-Bishop in 1724, conditions for the musicians at court deteriorated. The number of musicians was considerably reduced, and only two of the Italian musicians could stay on. In 1723 Platti married the soprano Maria Theresia Lambrucker. She was also employed at court. When Friedrich Carl von Schönborn, brother of Johann Philipp, was elected new Prince-Bishop in 1729, conditions improved. Platti stayed in Würzburg until his death in 1763. His wife gave birth to at least ten children. She died in 1752.

Platti was "Oboist, Violinist und Tenorist". A list of the court musicians from 1730 shows that "Virtuos Platti" was the best paid musician, and continued to be so, despite changes of monarch. He earned twice as much as the "Kapellmeister". Platti's position at court was unique. He was involved in chamber and church music and served as oboist and violinist. Later on he was assigned other tasks, including pedagogical ones. Platti was no doubt a virtuoso. As a composer Platti is renowned for his harpsichord sonatas, numerous pieces for cello and his church music. His work has distinct pre-classical features, associated with composers such as Haydn. His melodious imagination and lively, elegant style are apparent. (Source (https://www.naxos.com/person/Giovanni_Platti/20455.htm))

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-2jpZV6C/0/36614cd2/X3/Platti_Compositions-X3.png)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/517otH5dDwL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z%2Bf%2BveyvL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71NPoB69WEL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/710LGScdRVL._SL1127_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/516i80ETLQL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2020, 09:07:53 AM
Reposted from the listening thread today - new arrivals and apropos to several recent posts here - Dave :)

QuotePichl, Vaclav (1741-1805) - Clarinet Quartets w/ Jiri Krejci on period clarinet(s) - details of the instrument not given; disc contains 3 quartets by Pichl, a short allegro movement by Mozart, and an anonymous movement (latter take up about 15 mins. on disc).

Kozeluch, Leopold (1747-1818) - Keyboard Sonatas, V. 3 w/ Jenny Kim on fortepiano (by Michael Walker, Germany, 1987, after Anton Walter, Vienna, 1795) - super bargain, i.e. 4 discs (in a 2-CD jewel box) w/ 18 sonatas - one more of the same number might complete her project?  Both new arrivals - Dave :)

(https://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10079.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71%2BgYC5KgZL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2020, 12:07:00 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2020, 09:07:53 AM
Reposted from the listening thread today - new arrivals and apropos to several recent posts here - Dave :)
QuotePichl, Vaclav (1741-1805) - Clarinet Quartets w/ Jiri Krejci on period clarinet(s) - details of the instrument not given; disc contains 3 quartets by Pichl, a short allegro movement by Mozart, and an anonymous movement (latter take up about 15 mins. on disc).

Kozeluch, Leopold (1747-1818) - Keyboard Sonatas, V. 3 w/ Jenny Kim on fortepiano (by Michael Walker, Germany, 1987, after Anton Walter, Vienna, 1795) - super bargain, i.e. 4 discs (in a 2-CD jewel box) w/ 18 sonatas - one more of the same number might complete her project?  Both new arrivals - Dave :)

(https://www.arta.cz/arta/site/Image/f10079.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71%2BgYC5KgZL._SL1200_.jpg)

I could see myself enjoying both of those disks. I do have a bit of Kozeluch fortepiano music, certainly wouldn't mind adding to it. He was very good at it, in fact he was solid competition for Mozart in Vienna at the time. And Pichl is, well, Pichl!  At least 1 or 2 of his symphonies were played by Salomon/Haydn's orchestra in London during the 1st tour. So he wasn't just a local phenomenon.

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2020, 02:16:32 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2020, 12:07:00 PM
I could see myself enjoying both of those disks. I do have a bit of Kozeluch fortepiano music, certainly wouldn't mind adding to it. He was very good at it, in fact he was solid competition for Mozart in Vienna at the time. And Pichl is, well, Pichl!  At least 1 or 2 of his symphonies were played by Salomon/Haydn's orchestra in London during the 1st tour. So he wasn't just a local phenomenon.

Hi Gurn - the Pichl Clarinet Quartets are excellent w/ good up-front sound - the disc contains 65 mins of music w/ 50 mins dedicated to the quartets - here's the Arta Website (https://www.arta.cz/index.php?p=f10079en&site=en) in the Czech Republic - the link shows the disc's contents plus the booklet notes written by Jiří Krejčí, the clarinet performer.  The site is charging about $11 USD for the disc (I paid $15 for a used copy on the Amazon MP - played fine today) - have no idea about the S/H charge across the pond?

At the moment, I'm listening to the 2nd disc of Jenny Kim playing the Kozeluch Sonatas - the link in the quote below has audio snippets, but I must say that they are a little tinny vs. my den speakers, i.e. sound is MUCH better - her fortepiano has a deeper sound w/ the recording likely 'up close' - I don't hear any mechanical noises from the instrument nor any breathing from her (things that tend to annoy me, sorry if you're a fan?) - V. 3 is available on Spotify if you use that service?  I'm assuming that she will complete the project (another 16 or 17 sonatas) which would fit on another 4-disc offering.  Dave :)

QuoteLeopold Kozeluch (1747-1818) was in his time a highly regarded, even famous composer, on a par with C.P.E. Bach and even Mozart. His keyboard sonatas, although relatively modest in length, share the same qualities with those of his illustrious contemporaries: strong focus on melody and melodious figuration, vivid and brilliant accompaniments and a genuine expression of feeling, both happy and dramatic. His 50 keyboard sonatas are a true treasure trove of hidden "pianistic" gems! The sonatas in this new set clearly show an evolving, advanced style in terms of dramatic expression and complexity, as well as certain melodic and harmonic characteristics also found in the keyboard works of Mozart, Beethoven and even Schubert.  An international artist who regularly performs music ranging from Bach to Schoenberg in major venues across Europe, Asia and North America, Jenny Soonjin Kim is also a faculty member at Claremont Graduate University in California, where she teaches piano and fortepiano. It is her keen interest in scholarship – particularly historical performance practice – that led to her discovery of Kozeluch. The booklet contains excellent liner notes written by Robert Zappulla. (Source (https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/k/kozeluch-complete-keyboard-sonatas-vol-3/))
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2020, 02:41:45 PM
Thanks for that info, Dave. I expect I will have those soon. Here is the Kozeluch sonatas I have: Faron is a first rate fortepianist, I have a nice Haydn disk by her too.

(https://i.imgur.com/X6b9Uda.jpg)

I know another online seller in Prague who might have that Pichl disk available, since it is a Czech disk. Oddly enough, they are called Online Seller... well, almost. But they are an AMP seller, so I can get good shipping price there. $4 (cheap).

8)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Que on April 26, 2020, 12:25:48 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2020, 02:41:45 PM
I know another online seller in Prague who might have that Pichl disk available, since it is a Czech disk. Oddly enough, they are called Online Seller... well, almost. But they are an AMP seller, so I can get good shipping price there. $4 (cheap).

8)

Just in case!  :)

https://www.arta.cz/index.php?site=en&p=shop_item&k=&id=F10079
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 03, 2020, 09:43:36 AM
Rolla TTT! - quoted below are two posts that I left here back in 2010 - WOW!  :o  :laugh:  Appears that I owned the 3 recordings shown (note the 'Chamber Music' is a 4-CD set).  Since that time, I've acquired 2 more discs, i.e. first two shown immediately below and am thinking of purchasing the last one shown, which was discussed back when these posts were 'active' - there is plenty available on Amazon, so will do some more perusing.  So, anyone else into this long-lived Italian composer (1757-1841) who was Paganini's teacher and the director of La Scala in Milan for 30 or so years?  Dave :)

(https://www.tactus.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/751801.jpg)  (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT8yql3htnqAA3fyXIC_tm5UzghzLZty302xmDh2h44YwbRhVWh&usqp=CAU)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81KRRdLLuWL._SL1080_.jpg)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 04, 2010, 07:39:38 AM
Rolla, Alessandro (1757-1841) - born in Pavia, Italy a year after Wolfie; he was a violin & viola virtuoso, composer, and teacher (including Paganini).  He was offered the position of director of the La Scala orchestra in Milan in 1802, and remained in that position until 1833.  A fuller Wiki Bio HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Rolla)!

He wrote over 500 compositions, mostly chamber works, symphonies, and concertos for violin and viola. I just acquired my first disc of this composer (pic below), which are Viola Concertos; 3 works designated as BI. 541, 543, & 547 - his thematic catalog was published in 1981 by Luigi Inzaghi and Luigi Alberto Bianchi, so BI = Bianchi & Inzaghi.

Harry has made comments in the listening thread on a multi-disc set of Rolla's chamber works. On the Viola Concertos, the performer is Fabrizio Merlini w/ Bruno conducting the Orchestra del Conservatorio di La Spezia - the performances are just excellent and the Tactus production team has done a great job in recording these performances!  Will certainly like to acquire some more Rolla - :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/RollaViolaConcs/1113112561_VvHU6-O.jpg)  (http://www.viola-in-music.com/images/Alessandro-Rolla3.jpg)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 08, 2010, 03:44:48 PM
Rolla, Alessandro - today received the CD packages shown below discussed earlier - listening to the Flute Quartets at the moment; composition dates unclear from the liner notes, but just melodious composing w/ well integrated strings - the flute is quite up front (Tactus seems to be quite good in their sound engineering) - if you like the flute combined w/ strings, then this disc will not disappoint!  :)

The other offering is a 4-disc set (comes in a compact 2-CD jewel box w/ good liner notes) - the first disc comprises Violin-Viola Duets which are wonderfully complex; Rolla was considered a virtuoso w/ these instruments and one of the best of his time - he also was innovative in introducing string techniques which were expanded upon by the likes of Paganini (one of his students).  The second disc is of 3 String Quartets - again excellent compositions, performances, and recorded sound - these are definitely transitional between the classical-romantic eras, i.e. late Wofie-early Ludwig? But the disc is just an enjoyable listen - keep in mind that for just over 30 yrs, this guy was the head of the La Scala orchestra in Milan - his job was to please the audience - I think this carries over into his compositions - all that I've heard to date (not that much considering his extensive output) fulfill that promise - Rolla is another of the 'lost ones' worth exploring - :D

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/011/MI0001011708.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)  (https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/119/MI0001119852.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 03, 2020, 02:04:19 PM
Romberg, Andreas (1767-1821) - German violinist and cousin of the cellist, Bernhard Romberg (see Gurn's post HERE (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg428990/topicseen.html#msg428990)) about Bernhard from 2010 when we exchanged a few comments about the 'performing cousins'.  A short bio of Andreas quoted below - he composed in many genres, including orchestral works and much chamber music - a selected list of his works in the quoted link, but a MUCH more complete and impressive list (in German) HERE (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Romberg#Werke).  Despite this extensive oeuvre, the available recordings on Amazon USA is rather skimpy - he wrote some wonderful music - my collection is small, as shown below.  Thoughts, comments, recommendations, etc. appreciated - Dave :)

QuoteAndreas Romberg was a German violinist and composer. Romberg was born in Vechta, in the Duchy of Oldenburg. He learned the violin from his musician father and first performed in public at the age of six. In addition to touring Europe, Romberg also joined the Münster Court Orchestra. Cellist and composer Bernhard Romberg was his cousin. He joined the court orchestra of the Prince Elector in Bonn in 1790, where he met the young Beethoven. He moved to Hamburg in 1793 due to wartime upheavals and joined the Hamburg Opera Orchestra. Romberg's first opera, 'Der Rabe', premiered there in 1794. He also composed his own setting of Messiah (Der Messias). After a time in Paris, Andreas settled in Hamburg where he became a central figure in the city's musical life. In 1815 he succeeded Louis Spohr as music director at the court of the Duke, in Gotha, Thuringia. He died there on 10 November 1821. (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Romberg))

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91g6feYqmpL._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51G9zEc5kVL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51OEVlOS1xL.jpg)

  (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk1MTc4Mi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTN9)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51PgJxtjsGL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 09, 2020, 09:59:53 AM
Sammartini Brothers - Giovanni (c. 1770-1775) & Giuseppe (1695-1750) - not much in this thread on these two brothers from Milan - some discussion about 10 years ago w/ little information as to their recordings.  For me Giovanni, the longer-lived brother is more important in this thread because he spanned the Baroque and early Classical period, and contributed much to the early development of the galant and classical symphonic form (see quote below); whereas Giuseppe died the same year as JS Bach and thus his compositions are more in the late Baroque period (his short bio is HERE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Sammartini)).  At present, I own 8 CDs of works by these brothers (2 are 3-CD sets) (reviews attached) - any fans of 'John & George Sammartini' - comments and recommendations?  Dave :)

QuoteGiovanni Sammartini was an Italian composer, violinist, organist, choirmaster and teacher. He counted Gluck among his students, and was highly regarded by younger composers including Johann Christian Bach. It has also been noted that many stylizations in Joseph Haydn's compositions are similar to those of Sammartini, although Haydn denied any such influence. Sammartini is especially associated with the formation of the concert symphony through both the shift from a brief opera-overture style and the introduction of a new seriousness and use of thematic development that prefigure Haydn and Mozart. Some of his works are described as galant, a style associated with Enlightenment ideals, while "the prevailing impression left by Sammartini's work... [is that] he contributed greatly to the development of a Classical style that achieved its moment of greatest clarity precisely when his long, active life was approaching its end".

Although Giovanni never strayed far from Milan, he came into contact with such notable composers as J.C. Bach, Mozart, Boccherini, and Gluck, the last of whom was his student from 1737 to 1741. Sammartini is mostly praised for his innovations in the development of the symphony, perhaps more so than the schools of thought in Mannheim and Vienna. His approach to symphonic composition was unique in that it drew influence from the trio sonata and concerto forms, in contrast to other composers during the time that modeled symphonies after the Italian overture. His symphonies were driven by rhythm and a clearer form, especially early sonata and rounded binary forms. His works never ceased to be inventive, and sometimes anticipated the direction of classical music such as the Sturm und Drang style. Czech composer Josef Mysliveček considered Sammartini to be "the father of Haydn's style," a popular sentiment that considerably enhanced Sammartini's reputation after his death.

Sammartini was a prolific composer, and his compositions include 4 operas, about 70 symphonies, ten concertos, and a substantial body of chamber music. As of 2004, approximately 450 known works by Sammartini have been recovered, although a fair amount of his music has been lost, especially sacred and dramatic works. Sammartini's works are referred to either by their opus number, or by the J-C numbers in the Jenkins-Churgin catalog. Newell Jenkins edited some of Sammartini's works, including a Magnificat, for the first time. Sammartini's music is generally divided into three stylistic periods: the early period (1724-1739), which reflects a mixture of Baroque and Preclassical forms, the middle period (1740-1758), which suggests Preclassical form, and the late period (1759-1774), that displays Classical influences. Sammartini's middle period is regarded as his most significant and pioneering, during which his compositions in the galant style of music foreshadow the Classical era to come. (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista_Sammartini))

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BnvcGhn0L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41mW2NNAi2L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/7165nY1JC%2BL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Mz1GW6igL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 24, 2020, 08:08:08 AM
Stamitz, Carl (1745-1801) - no dedicated thread on this composer and just a lot of 'mentions' in the 'classical corner' - going through my modest collection at the moment; plus there seems to be more available on Spotify than I can find on Amazon USA or at Presto Music!

Carl was born in Mannheim (palace front shown below), eldest son to Johann Stamitz, Director of the famous Mannheim court orchestra - short bio of him quoted below; he wrote more than 50 symphonies, at least 38 symphonies concertantes and more than 60 concertos for violin, viola, viola d'amore, cello, clarinet, basset horn, flute, bassoon and other instruments. He also wrote a large volume of chamber music. Some of the clarinet and viola concertos that Stamitz composed are considered to be among the finest available from the period (Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Stamitz)).

At the moment, I own 9 discs of Carl's compositions (3 are in a box of his 'Clarinet Concertos') - believe that I enjoy his clarinet works the best; apparently when he lived in Paris, Stamitz began to cooperate with the Bohemian born clarinet virtuoso Joseph Beer (1744–1811), which proved fruitful for both Stamitz and Beer (Wiki link above); and reminiscent of some great clarinet works of several other composers, such as Mozart and Brahms.

So, any Stamitz fans (Carl and kin)?  If so, what else is available - any period instruments clarinet works?  Dave :)

QuoteCarl Philip Stamitz is the best-known representative of the second generation of composers who were active at the court of the Elector Palatine in Mannheim during the middle decades of the Eighteenth Century. He received his earliest musical training from his father, Johann Stamitz, Director of Instrumental Music and leader of the incomparable Mannheim court orchestra, and in the years following his father's early death, from the court musicians Christian Cannabich, Ignaz Holzbauer and Franz Xaver Richter. Extant orchestral registers for the period 1762-1770 list Carl Stamitz as a second violinist in the court orchestra, a position which enabled him to forge a brilliant performing technique as well as study the contemporary Mannheim repertoire.

Stamitz left Mannheim in 1770, travelling to Paris where, the following year, he was appointed court composer to Duke Louis of Noailles. In Paris he made contact with many leading musicians including Gossec, Leduc, Beer and Sieber, who published a number of his newest compositions, and, together with his brother Anton, was a regular performer at the Concert Spirituel. In the summer of 1772 Stamitz lived at Versailles and composed the first of several programme symphonies, La promenade royale. His journeys as a virtuoso took him to Vienna in 1772, to Frankfurt the following year and in 1774, to Augsburg, Vienna and Strasbourg where he published the six quartets op.14.

Stamitz's departure from Paris has not been accurately documented although the Pohl claimed that he was in London from 1777 until at least 1779. The Paris years were secure and relatively prosperous for Stamitz. After his departure, however, he never again held an important permanent position even during the years of his greatest international fame. In London he published many compositions, especially chamber works, and continued to style himself 'Composer to the Duke of Noailles'. Some time after 1779 he moved to The Hague where he appeared as a viola soloist in at least 28 concerts at the Court of William V of Orange including one on 23 November 1783 in which Beethoven (aged twelve) played the fortepiano.

During the next few years Stamitz travelled incessantly, presenting academies in Hamburg, Luebeck, Magdeburg, Leipzig and many other centres. He directed a performance of Handel's Messiah at the Cathedral in Berlin in 1786 and in 1787 was in Nuremberg for a performance of his musical allegory on the occasion of Blanchard's balloon ascent.

Stamitz's last years followed much the same pattern as the decade immediately following his departure from Paris. He travelled extensively, made occasional petitions for employment and sent his compositions as far afield as Wales and Russia in the hope that they would win him lucrative compensation. In the mid-1790s he served briefly as Kapellmeister and music teacher at the university in Mannheim but the income was insufficient for him to support his family. His wife of ten years, Maria Josepha (nee Pilz) died in January 1801 and Stamitz himself died in November the same year shortly before his planned trip to St Petersburg received official sanction. In spite of his early fame, his obvious gifts as a performer and composer and his sporadic experiments in alchemy, Carl Stamitz died so heavily in debt that his possessions had to auctioned to help pay his creditors. A printed catalogue of his music collection was printed for a separate auction in 1810 but the collection has long since disappeared.(Source (https://www.artaria.com/pages/stamitz-carl-1745-1801))

(https://media-cdn.sygictraveldata.com/media/800x600/612664395a40232133447d33247d3839333639363934)  (https://lastfm.freetls.fastly.net/i/u/770x0/80840d810ba34748c7cf6b3ee8fe0fe4.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51mQiXQuwbL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51UQxqmHm-L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71zx11qP-%2BL._SL1200_.jpg)

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Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Brass Hole on December 14, 2020, 09:17:48 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 24, 2020, 08:08:08 AM
If so, what else is available - any period instruments clarinet works?  Dave :)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3Nzk1Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NzN9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4MTE2Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NzN9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk5NTkyMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MTgyMjEyMDF9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMzI0My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDk3NDA3NTR9)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 14, 2020, 12:55:45 PM
Quote from: Brass Hole on December 14, 2020, 09:17:48 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk3Nzk1Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NzN9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4MTE2Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NzN9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk5NTkyMC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MTgyMjEyMDF9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMzI0My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NDk3NDA3NTR9)

Thanks for the suggestions above - will take a look on Amazon to see what's available - amazed that I left that post way back in May and you're the first responder - guess not much interest in this composer?  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner: Gluck
Post by: Chaszz on March 10, 2021, 10:23:05 AM
I can't find a button to start a new topic with. After a long affair with Romantic music, I've become re-interested in Classical era music after exhausting Romanticism, hopefully temporarily. Listening recently to some of Haydn's piano sonatas and trios and realizing how great they are, I will certainly be exploring more Haydn I haven't heard. But this post is largely on a different topic, Gluck.

It seems to me Gluck was writing his operas in a fully Classical style, particularly in the instrumental passages, at least some years before Haydn's rise. I am familiar with the general outline of the development of the Classical style, with C.P.E. Bach and Johann Christian Bach as waystations along the road. I don't know how Gluck fits into this. I have read topics about his plot reforms and simplifications of course, but not specifically musical stylistic changes. Of course I should be reading more about all this, Charles Rosen and so on, but have stopped in here for possibly a little quick education. How much did Gluck contribute to the development of the mature Classical style? Is his reputation in this regard less than it should be? Was he a favorite of Haydn and Mozart? Thanks.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner: Gluck
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2021, 02:01:29 PM
Quote from: Chaszz on March 10, 2021, 10:23:05 AM
I can't find a button to start a new topic with. After a long affair with Romantic music, I've become re-interested in Classical era music after exhausting Romanticism, hopefully temporarily. Listening recently to some of Haydn's piano sonatas and trios and realizing how great they are, I will certainly be exploring more Haydn I haven't heard. But this post is largely on a different topic, Gluck.

It seems to me Gluck was writing his operas in a fully Classical style, particularly in the instrumental passages, at least some years before Haydn's rise. I am familiar with the general outline of the development of the Classical style, with C.P.E. Bach and Johann Christian Bach as waystations along the road. I don't know how Gluck fits into this. I have read topics about his plot reforms and simplifications of course, but not specifically musical stylistic changes. Of course I should be reading more about all this, Charles Rosen and so on, but have stopped in here for possibly a little quick education. How much did Gluck contribute to the development of the mature Classical style? Is his reputation in this regard less than it should be? Was he a favorite of Haydn and Mozart? Thanks.

Well, to start a 'New Topic' - see my attached annotated screen capture below (click to enlarge) - you simply need to open a sub-forum appropriate to your topic, then the 'New Topic' option will be present.  As to Christoph Willibald Gluck, I have nothing in my collection by this important 18th century Viennese composer but know his basic biography - I'm not an 'opera' or 'vocal' enthusiast, so don't collect these genres; he wrote little instrumental music (list HERE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Christoph_Willibald_Gluck)) - just looking on Amazon USA, there are pages of offerings but virtually all related to his vocal works.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Chaszz on March 10, 2021, 05:46:01 PM
I wanted to stay WITHIN Gurn's Claasical Corner, and not start a new topic outside it. So that's what I did. It seems to me that opera sometimes influences purely instrumental music, as with Meonteverdi and also with Wagner writing some of the best symphonic music of the late 19th c. in his interludes, and then influencing the development of the symphony with his harmonies. Something of the same nature seems to have happened with Gluck, but I'm not sure. Anyone else willing to comment on this?
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner: Gluck
Post by: Chaszz on March 14, 2021, 09:48:02 PM
 have a bit of supportive testimony from the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, published in 1911, which is considered a classic edition of that work. This is from an article on Gluck co-written by Sir Donald Francis Tovey, a well-respected musicologist and musician:

'When he [Gluck] was inspired there was no question that he was the first and greatest writer of dramatic music before Mozart. To begin with, he could invent sublime melodies; and his power of producing great musical effects by the simplest means was nothing short of Handelian. Moreover, in his peculiar sphere he deserves the title generally accorded to Haydn of "father of modern orchestration." '

-https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Gluck,_Christoph_Willibald

"In his peculiar sphere" somewhat diminishes the impact of the remainder of the sentence, especially as many ears might tend to wander back and forth between orchestral music and opera and, being ears rather than brains, might not erect a barrier between those two forms of music such that achievement is one field has little or no bearing on achievement in the other. In fact, some composers have even been known to work in both. Proving that Gluck produced mature Classical style orchestrations BEFORE Haydn may be more difficult, but I will give it a try. The decade of the 1760s is what I think needs to be examined.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on March 15, 2021, 01:03:20 AM
Supposedly Handel quipped that his cook (who was also a singer) knew more counterpoint than Gluck... Gluck was of course hugely important for "modern opera" (i.e. Mozart, Cherubini, Beethoven, even Berlioz all of whom regarded him highly) but he wrote little instrumental music. The most important is probably the Don Juan ballet and the dance of the furies was also used elsewhere. (Another famous piece are the "blessed spirits" from the Orpheus opera that used to be a popular classical sampler piece in the 1960s.) The influence on instrumental music might be instrumentation to some extent although I am not sure of particular examples. (Gluck uses trombones for "sublime" music but this goes basically back to Monteverdi and the association is probably rooted in their use in church music.)

It seems quite hard today for Gluck to hold his ground between Mozart and rediscovered baroque opera (esp. Handel) but recall that even in Tovey's time 100 years ago, baroque opera was considered a historical curiosity whereas the three or so most famous ones by Gluck were played on stage. I think both Iphigenie operas are certainly worth a try (I find them superior to Orpheus & Eurydice) but one has to have some taste for opera.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: arkiv on May 16, 2021, 06:59:36 PM
José Mariano Elízaga (1786 - 1842)

"Últimas variaciones". Silvia Navarrete, piano.

https://www.youtube.com/v/I9ujeZ4ID1Y
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: vers la flamme on June 30, 2021, 03:36:23 PM
The classical period is somewhat of a weak spot for me. I would love recommendations for great CDs of classical period composers and works beyond the Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven trinity...
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2021, 05:24:19 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 30, 2021, 03:36:23 PM
The classical period is somewhat of a weak spot for me. I would love recommendations for great CDs of classical period composers and works beyond the Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven trinity...

Hi VLF - just go back through the pages of this thread for plenty of classical period composers w/ lots of CD images (I've left many myself) - also give us some ideas about the dates to encompass (e.g. 1750-1820 is pretty standard); finally, tell us what 'genres' you may prefer, examples might include symphonies, chamber music, concertos, solo works, etc.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: vers la flamme on July 03, 2021, 04:53:49 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2021, 05:24:19 PM
Hi VLF - just go back through the pages of this thread for plenty of classical period composers w/ lots of CD images (I've left many myself) - also give us some ideas about the dates to encompass (e.g. 1750-1820 is pretty standard); finally, tell us what 'genres' you may prefer, examples might include symphonies, chamber music, concertos, solo works, etc.  Dave :)

Lots of images indeed, an overwhelming amount. I think I'm primarily interested in the later classical period, ie. around and after the death of Mozart, 1780s - early 1800s. But I'm willing to give some of the earlier stuff a shot, provided I can find a composer whose music I connect with. To that end, I seem to enjoy CPE Bach a good bit, for example, though I've only heard a bit of his music—he almost strikes me as a very early proto-Romantic. I'm curious to check out some of the Bohemians, like Myslivicek and Stamitz—partly because of your vocal advocacy for their musics, Dave. I also think I might enjoy Boccherini and Clementi. I think symphonies and chamber music are what I'm more interested in than concerti and solo instrumental, at this point, but that could change.

Anyway, I usually go to Haydn and Mozart when I'm in a classical period mood. Enjoying some Haydn London symphonies right now. But as I've said I'd love to branch out.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 03, 2021, 06:50:03 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 03, 2021, 04:53:49 PM
Lots of images indeed, an overwhelming amount. I think I'm primarily interested in the later classical period, ie. around and after the death of Mozart, 1780s - early 1800s. But I'm willing to give some of the earlier stuff a shot, provided I can find a composer whose music I connect with. To that end, I seem to enjoy CPE Bach a good bit, for example, though I've only heard a bit of his music—he almost strikes me as a very early proto-Romantic. I'm curious to check out some of the Bohemians, like Myslivicek and Stamitz—partly because of your vocal advocacy for their musics, Dave. I also think I might enjoy Boccherini and Clementi. I think symphonies and chamber music are what I'm more interested in than concerti and solo instrumental, at this point, but that could change.

Anyway, I usually go to Haydn and Mozart when I'm in a classical period mood. Enjoying some Haydn London symphonies right now. But as I've said I'd love to branch out.

Hi again VLF - thanks for the info above - as to CPE Bach he indeed bridges the late Baroque/Galant period (born in 1714, 2nd eldest son of JS Bach); I have a lot of his works in my collection, especially keyboard compositions - he is certainly worth exploring.  BUT for a starter in this period to complement your Haydn/Mozart, I would strongly suggest exploring Luigi Boccherini (1743-1805) - born in Lucca, Italy; a virtuoso cellist who spent most of his adult life in Spain - prolific and versatile composer (list of his works HERE (https://www.musiqueorguequebec.ca/catal/boccherini/bocl.html) based on the Gérard catalog) - I've been collecting him for decades and have over 60 CDs, pic below is a snippet from my database (have 5 more CDs not added yet) - if you subscribe to a streaming service, like Spotify, then a good choice to listen to him w/o an investment.  As to beginning recommendations, his String Quintets w/ two cellos is a good start; the flute works listed are quite nice if you like that instrument; the keyboard chamber music is enjoyable; and the Guitar Quintets are worth a listen.  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-QTShv7K/0/036b353e/O/Boccherini_Owned.png)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: vers la flamme on July 03, 2021, 06:52:28 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 03, 2021, 06:50:03 PM
Hi again VLF - thanks for the info above - as to CPE Bach he indeed bridges the late Baroque/Galant period (born in 1714, 2nd eldest son of JS Bach); I have a lot of his works in my collection, especially keyboard compositions - he is certainly worth exploring.  BUT for a starter in this period to complement your Haydn/Mozart, I would strongly suggest exploring Luigi Boccherini (1743-1805) - born in Lucca, Italy; a virtuoso cellist who spent most of his adult life in Spain - prolific and versatile composer (list of his works HERE (https://www.musiqueorguequebec.ca/catal/boccherini/bocl.html) based on the Gérard catalog) - I've been collecting him for decades and have over 60 CDs, pic below is a snippet from my database (have 5 more CDs not added yet) - if you subscribe to a streaming service, like Spotify, then a good choice to listen to him w/o an investment.  As to beginning recommendations, his String Quintets w/ two cellos is a good start; the flute works listed are quite nice if you like that instrument; the keyboard chamber music is enjoyable; and the Guitar Quintets are worth a listen.  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-QTShv7K/0/036b353e/O/Boccherini_Owned.png)

Thanks! I'll try and check out some of your choices for the guitar quintets, and string/cello quintets. Seems as good a place to start as any.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 03, 2021, 07:18:06 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 03, 2021, 06:52:28 PM
Thanks! I'll try and check out some of your choices for the guitar quintets, and string/cello quintets. Seems as good a place to start as any.

+1 - good luck in your search - just wanted to mentioned that there is a Boccherini Thread (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10168.0.html) which I started back in 2008 - might help to make some selections that will please you.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: ritter on July 03, 2021, 11:21:05 PM
Seeing activity in this thread, the question arises "Where's Gurn?". He hasn't posted since April. 
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Jo498 on July 04, 2021, 12:27:11 PM
I hope Gurn is alive and well, unfortunately not to be taken for granted these days.

- CPE Bach: Hamburg symphonies (6 for strings and 4 for full orchestra), the are from rather late in his live
- Joseph Martin Kraus: symphonies with Concerto Köln (Capriccio)
- There are one or two collections (and of course they had been on single discs earlier) with Concerto Köln on Teldec with an assortment of mostly symphonies by lesser known composers like Vanhal
- Boccherini is huge, there are two discs with Europa galante (HIP) that were united as a Virgin Veritas duo, I think, that give a decent impression of some chamber music.
- Clementi: Recital of sonatas with Staier/Teldec and Demidenko (modern piano) on hyperion
- Michael Haydn (younger brother) wrote nice symphonies and a Requiem (as well as more church music) which is quite close to and probably was an influence on Mozart's
- Krommer, Reicha and Danzi have symphonies and woodwind concertos and woodwind chamber music roughly between Mozart and Beethoven.

However, it should be kept in mind that most of the music by "minor" classical composers will appear rather lightweight compared to the famous pieces by Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: VonStupp on July 04, 2021, 02:33:35 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 03, 2021, 04:53:49 PM
Lots of images indeed, an overwhelming amount. I think I'm primarily interested in the later classical period, ie. around and after the death of Mozart, 1780s - early 1800s. But I'm willing to give some of the earlier stuff a shot, provided I can find a composer whose music I connect with. To that end, I seem to enjoy CPE Bach a good bit, for example, though I've only heard a bit of his music—he almost strikes me as a very early proto-Romantic. I'm curious to check out some of the Bohemians, like Myslivicek and Stamitz—partly because of your vocal advocacy for their musics, Dave. I also think I might enjoy Boccherini and Clementi. I think symphonies and chamber music are what I'm more interested in than concerti and solo instrumental, at this point, but that could change.

Anyway, I usually go to Haydn and Mozart when I'm in a classical period mood. Enjoying some Haydn London symphonies right now. But as I've said I'd love to branch out.

I don't know what you have heard already, but if you want to straddle late Classical with Romantic, Carl Maria von Weber's Symphonies and Concertos ride that line nicely. If you don't mind chorus with orchestra, Cherubini and Hummel have some wonderful Mass and Requiem settings. Of course, if you haven't surveyed Haydn's late masses, I would start there.  :)
VS
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: Chaszz on July 26, 2021, 07:40:43 AM
'However, it should be kept in mind that most of the music by "minor" classical composers will appear rather lightweight compared to the famous pieces by Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn.'
                                                               - Jo498

I've found Gluck's music to be exciting and beautiful, more than the other "transitional" composers from Baroque to Classical, and more than the minor Classical figures. I also have a suspicion Gluck was writing in the mature classical style before Haydn. It is hard to demonstrate this however. The opinion on his quality, as opposed to the timing, is regarding the sound of the style, because as an opera composer Gluck of course didn't write in Sonata form or any of the other appurtenances of the symphony. For wonderful Classical orchestral writing however, in his overtures, ballets and accompaniments, he ranks in my mind a lot higher than the position which posterity awards him.
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 27, 2022, 01:37:08 PM
Franz Krommer - selectively perusing my classical collection and up to the 'K's - just starting w/ this long-lived and prolific composer - love his wind music (and there is SO much!) - but I was shocked at how many non-wind string quartets and quintets he wrote and I own just 6 SQuartets - posted below in the listening thread so about to be buried - looking on Amazon there is little more available of his string chamber output which is hard to believe - any suggestions?  Dave :)

QuoteKrommer, Franz (1759-1831) - Bassoon, Clarinet & Flute Music - started in on my FK collection today w/ some of his MANY wind compositions as shown below - I own about 20 Krommer CDs, mostly wind works and symphonies w/ only six string quartets; just looking at his composition LIST (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Krommer) and concentrating on string chamber works - according to Karel Padrta's catalogue, Franz wrote 35 String Quintets (P VI:1-P VI:35) and 78 String Quartets (P VIII:1-PVIII:78)!  An interesting life span, i.e. born the same year Handel died and outlived Beethoven by 4 years - AND this is good music!  Do I need more?  Oy vey -  ??? 8)  Dave

QuoteFranz Krommer - Born in Kamenice, he made his career in the service of various noblemen, finally settling in Vienna, where he became director of music for the Court Ballet and later entering the service of the Emperor Franz I, finally as imperial director of chamber music and court composer. Krommer's orchestral music includes symphonies and concertos, the latter for his own instrument, the violin, and for various wind instruments, either singly or in multiple concertos. He added to the repertoire of Harmoniemusik, music for wind band, with well crafted compositions that serve their entertaining purpose admirably. Krommer's string quartets seemed to contemporaries to equal those of Haydn and rival those of Beethoven. He wrote a quantity of chamber music, quintets and quartets, a number of these involving wind instruments, in addition to trios and duos, all reflecting the style and taste of the period in which he lived. (Source (https://www.naxos.com/person/Franz_Krommer/21833.htm))

(https://www.chandos.net/artwork/CX9297.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/5149100TP8L.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71i2PqTSsiL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91Hp3klgezL._SL1390_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71XeOi7W3HL._SL1050_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 18, 2022, 09:21:35 AM
New Platti recording added to my collection in the last two years, i.e. the top left pic below - Luca Guglielmi performing the late KB Sonatas on the same fortepiano described in the second paragraph of the quoted post below; single excellent review attached.  Dave :)

P.S. Wiki bio HERE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Benedetto_Platti) w/ selective compositions -  8)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 21, 2020, 09:53:04 AM
Platti, Giovanni (1697-1763) - now listening to my small collection of Platti's music (just 6 discs - 1 a double, shown below) - I noticed that he has not been discussed in this thread except for a post back in 2011, plus as an early transitional composer, i.e. Baroque-Early Classical (hopefully appropriate for this thread) - his keyboard music, especially when played on fortepiano anticipated some of the changes in that genre into the galant style and later.  I particularly like the first two CDs shown, i.e. the Epoca Barocca are excellent in these works (of course w/ the wonderful Azzolini on bassoon!).

In the Concerti per il Cembalo Obligato, Luca Guglielmi is performing on an outstanding sounding fortepiano, a copy by Kerstin Schwarz, 1997 after a 1726 original made none other than by Bartolomeo Cristofori - indeed, worth a listen; reviews of four of the recordings below are attached, along w/ a list of Platti's compositions cataloged by Alberto Iesuè (Wiki source).  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/617FrGW3XvL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/517otH5dDwL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z%2Bf%2BveyvL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71NPoB69WEL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/710LGScdRVL._SL1127_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/516i80ETLQL.jpg)
Title: Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 29, 2022, 01:10:21 PM
Carl Stamitz TTT! 2 years since my last post (part below) - well, something new, i.e. I'm up to 10 CDs now since the addition of some more Symphonies, the CPO disc added below (top row last one) - now have only 8 of his 50+ works in this genre - Willens w/ the period instrument group Kölner Akademie - Carl emerged from his father's Mannheim orchestra composing orchestral music in a similar style, especially the crescendos made famous by this band - however, of all the recordings below I remain fondest of the clarinet compositions.  Dave :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 24, 2020, 08:08:08 AM
Stamitz, Carl (1745-1801) - no dedicated thread on this composer and just a lot of 'mentions' in the 'classical corner' - going through my modest collection at the moment; plus there seems to be more available on Spotify than I can find on Amazon USA or at Presto Music!

Carl was born in Mannheim (palace front shown below), eldest son to Johann Stamitz, Director of the famous Mannheim court orchestra - short bio of him quoted below; he wrote more than 50 symphonies, at least 38 symphonies concertantes and more than 60 concertos for violin, viola, viola d'amore, cello, clarinet, basset horn, flute, bassoon and other instruments. He also wrote a large volume of chamber music. Some of the clarinet and viola concertos that Stamitz composed are considered to be among the finest available from the period (Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Stamitz)).

At the moment, I own 9 discs of Carl's compositions (3 are in a box of his 'Clarinet Concertos') - believe that I enjoy his clarinet works the best; apparently when he lived in Paris, Stamitz began to cooperate with the Bohemian born clarinet virtuoso Joseph Beer (1744–1811), which proved fruitful for both Stamitz and Beer (Wiki link above); and reminiscent of some great clarinet works of several other composers, such as Mozart and Brahms.

So, any Stamitz fans (Carl and kin)?  If so, what else is available - any period instruments clarinet works?  Dave :)

(https://media-cdn.sygictraveldata.com/media/800x600/612664395a40232133447d33247d3839333639363934)  (https://lastfm.freetls.fastly.net/i/u/770x0/80840d810ba34748c7cf6b3ee8fe0fe4.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51mQiXQuwbL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51UQxqmHm-L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71zx11qP-%2BL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/ca96e28b-15a6-4eb5-b0e7-286b559fbbdd.346bc1ffcaf466b8295de53df2493081.jpeg?odnHeight=612&odnWidth=612&odnBg=FFFFFF)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51DRg1vFGPL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51fAZqBYI3L.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Gp-qnowzL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Dh28-DtdL._SX522_.jpg)