GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Greta on May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM
2nd try...this thread is to discuss the life and the works of the one-in-a-million composer Gustav Mahler. The original thread turned into an interesting and involved debate about Mahler vs. other composers, and the connections between, and it seemed best to leave that thread for debate and create another one for discussion as I think there's a lot to be gained from both sides.

Please, try to stay on topic - this makes the discussion more useful and pleasant for everyone. Obviously the people in the thread love his music, you'll know if this is the place for you or not. ;) If things start getting too heated or far afield, please take it to the The Great Mahler Debate (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,437.280.html).

For discussing recordings of the symphonies I also want to mention this thread:
Mahler Symphonies - Help (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,526.0.html)

Thanks in advance!

To start off the discussion, I've been working my way through his works this year and he has steadily risen to one of, or maybe my favorite, composers. My favorite lieder of his so far are Das Lied von der Erde (Song of the Earth) and Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesellen (Songs of a Wayfarer).  My favorite of his symphonies are the 3rd and the 5th, closely followed by the 7th. His 5th was really a pivotal moment in his writing. I'm now going to concentrate on getting to know the 6th and 9th, by golly, if can ever get off the first two I named!

I approached the symphonies in this order, based on perceived difficulty, randomness, and what I had available: 5th, 4th, 8th, 2nd, 7th, 3rd, 10th, 9th, 6th, with lieder sprinkled between. Definitely a lot of connections between his lieder and the symphonies, I'm going to revisit the lieder soon to explore them more.

I'm also currently reading the book Mahler: The Man and His Music by Egon Gartenberg and ordering some of the scores. Fascinating stuff. So much of what's going on in his music is still a vast mystery to me, it seems even the scholars don't know quite what was behind his thought processes at times. ;)

Only now do I realize what a great conductor he was as well. I'm really enjoying reading about that aspect of his life. It's such a shame he didn't live longer, we might've had some recordings of his symphonies with the New York Phil...

Okay, please follow the guidelines, and let the discussion begin anew.

-Greta
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mahlertitan on May 01, 2007, 08:15:50 PM
Yay! Finally a thread about Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on May 01, 2007, 08:39:34 PM
Good plan IMO - thank you for not locking the other thread, as it has become very interesting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 01, 2007, 10:30:30 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on May 01, 2007, 08:15:50 PM
Yay! Finally a thread about Mahler.

And only about Mahler! :)

I had planned to get into the 6th a lot tonight, but I'm sitting here spellbound by a live performance from Vienna of the 5th with Eschenbach and Houston. (From Operashare) How I wished I had been older during his tenure so I could have seen him with them more!

The sound quality and performance are simply incredible. I love this symphony so much. One the BEST openings ever. So startling and dramatic (love the horn trills!) I especially like it when the funeral march is not too fast. Wow, a great performance of this really makes a difference. Previous ones I've heard were Levi/Atlanta, Solti/CSO and Karajan/BPO, but none made the music grab me so much.

His themes are really beautiful here. Those passionate cries full of chromaticism after the opening march, wow, it simply explodes. Truly amazing writing. It's very interesting how he's in minor, and then will suddenly have a fanfare (the one at the end of that first big outburst) end on major chords, like the dark side's devilish false triumph.

I think my favorite movement is the 2nd, there's so much going on, the alternation between the storm and a graceful waltz that progressively becomes more strained until it bursts into a tirade again culminating in those 4 bass drumbeats (you expect a fifth but it comes several measures later). Brilliant. Then back to this ravishing, spiraling dance fluctuating between nostalgic and sinister. Highly romantic music here too. There's some interesting links that start to happen between his middle symphonies. Sometimes I hear things that hint in this symphony to his 7th, and look back to his 4th.

The Scherzo is really fun, so Viennese. I love to see the horn featured and it can be very haunting when played well. I don't have the score yet, those 4 horns that play the same note in succession (5 mins in), is one of more of those stopped? In some recordings the 1st and 3rd notes sound that way.

And of course, the Adagietto is sublime, it seems to breathlessly hover on the edge of another world. One of the most beautiful adagios I can think of. The harp is used so elegantly. In some recordings this movement is interpreted more painfully, but here it floats effortlessly to heaven. I'm thinking I should get a Bernstein recording, as he loved this symphony so much, but I'm wondering how he approached this movement especially. It could easily become sappy and wallowing (and far too slow). For me this one is just right when it walks that very fine line.

The Rondo-Finale is charming, looking fondly back toward his 4th Symphony and ending with that glorious chorale,  that reminds me of Wagner's Tannhauser. It's really an amazing work, there's a lot to study in it.

I wonder if he was thinking of his love for Alma in writing the Adagietto, there seems to be some debate on this among scholars. There is an anecdote I've seen that he wrote it to her as a love letter, with no words, but it's apparently not corroborated in her writings.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: stingo on May 02, 2007, 03:30:52 AM
I'd suggest listening to the Ruckert lieder too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 03:53:44 AM
It's...it's, so quiet here, so peaceful! Are we sure this is a Mahler thread?
;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 03:55:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 03:53:44 AM
It's...it's, so quiet here, so peaceful! Are we sure this is a Mahler thread?
;D

Almschi Acres . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Harry on May 02, 2007, 05:24:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 03:53:44 AM
It's...it's, so quiet here, so peaceful! Are we sure this is a Mahler thread?
;D

Sarge


She will have some serious talking, my fellow posters. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 05:56:30 AM
Quote from: Harry on May 02, 2007, 05:24:37 AM

She will have some serious talking, my fellow posters. ;D

I know, I know. I'll have something serious to say soon, I promise.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 05:59:51 AM
Although the two pieces are perfectly distinct 'sound planets' . . . there is a recurring horn-call in the third movement of the Shostakovich Tenth Symphony which recalls the opening of Das Lied von der Erde.

Das Lied von der Erde is one of those rare Mahler works which captivated me completely on the first hearing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 11:56:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 05:59:51 AM
Although the two pieces are perfectly distinct 'sound planets' . . . there is a recurring horn-call in the third movement of the Shostakovich Tenth Symphony which recalls the opening of Das Lied von der Erde.

Das Lied von der Erde is one of those rare Mahler works which captivated me completely on the first hearing.

I'm listening to the Tenth now (Karajan) and yes, that horn call does remind me of Das Lied. Interesting.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 12:35:06 PM
Quote from: Greta on May 01, 2007, 10:30:30 PM
And only about Mahler! :)

And of course, the Adagietto is sublime, it seems to breathlessly hover on the edge of another world. One of the most beautiful adagios I can think of.

I couldn't agree more.

Quote from: Greta on May 01, 2007, 10:30:30 PM
The harp is used so elegantly. In some recordings this movement is interpreted more painfully, but here it floats effortlessly to heaven. I'm thinking I should get a Bernstein recording, as he loved this symphony so much, but I'm wondering how he approached this movement especially. It could easily become sappy and wallowing (and far too slow). For me this one is just right when it walks that very fine line.

As a funeral dirge...so you might not appreciate Lenny here. His reading takes 11:13. Me, I can listen to it played at any tempo but my desert island Adagietto is Herman Scherchen's at 13:07. I prefer it played, not as a simple interlude, quickly done away with, but as a major Mahlerian statement of world-weariness and loss.

Quote from: Greta on May 01, 2007, 10:30:30 PM
And only about Mahler! :)
I wonder if he was thinking of his love for Alma in writing the Adagietto, there seems to be some debate on this among scholars. There is an anecdote I've seen that he wrote it to her as a love letter, with no words, but it's apparently not corroborated in her writings.

I doubt the Adagietto was a musical love letter. The Adagietto and the Lieder Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen share themes and to my ears express the same feelings. It seems a very strange way to profess love by using a song that says, "I have lost track of the world with which I used to waste much time...I am dead to the world...I live alone in my heaven, in my loving, in my song." Alma would have recognized the origin of the music; would have known the lyrics. I can't imagine her being pleased with the association.

The story didn't come from Mahler or Alma, but from Mengelberg. What really makes me doubt it is the fact Alma never mentioned it. She was an expert at self-promotion and enjoyed being Mahler's muse. Why would she remain silent? I think she would have taken every opportunity to tell anyone who would listen: "You know, my Gustav wrote that for me."

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 03, 2007, 02:35:32 AM
Sarge, I listened to the Ruckert-Lieder last night a couple of times through with the text. Indeed the Adagietto shares much in common with "I Have Lost Touch with the World". I also think it is not very likely it was for Alma, though he was deeply in love at the time he was writing and that may have led to its highly expressive and dreamy nature.

That song is my favorite of the Ruckert, quite profound and so beautifully set. Also "At Midnight" I love and "Do Not Look Into My Songs!".  ;D

I going to see if I can roust up some more 5ths this weekend, and mean to take on trying to get to know the 6th. I think his 6th and 7th are the hardest to get to know for me, but they're great. Wild as he**. 3rd was hard too. I spent ages on it (and have the Salonen arriving soon, so will be going back for more).

I have Solti/CSO and Bernstein/VPO to listen to, and a friend had Mackerras with the BBC Phil, didn't even realize he recorded it. Mackerras and Mahler...wow, I'm looking at Google and it looks like he's recorded almost a whole set (http://www.google.com/search?q=mackerras+mahler&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7SNYC&pwst=1&start=10&sa=N), or at least half. I never have heard anything about his Mahler though!  :o

Now tell me...is Zander's 6th really this good? High Fidelity Review (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=16280004)

Telarc SACD, and with the Philharmonia, stunning I'm sure. Comes with an extra disc of lecture too. Lot of hype around Zander, this reviewer says: "After being swept along by his enthusiasm, you too may begin to wonder if Zander isn't the next Bernstein." High praise indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 03:55:11 AM
Oh, praise rather too high, I think.  Ben Zander has his musical virtues, but "the next Bernstein" . . . come, how could he be?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 06:26:09 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 03, 2007, 02:35:32 AM

Now tell me...is Zander's 6th really this good? High Fidelity Review (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=16280004)
Telarc SACD, and with the Philharmonia, stunning I'm sure. Comes with an extra disc of lecture too. Lot of hype around Zander, this reviewer says: "After being swept along by his enthusiasm, you too may begin to wonder if Zander isn't the next Bernstein." High praise indeed.

It simply demolishes all competing recordings of Mahler's 6th in terms of sonics. In this recording Telarc has captured a sound both red-blooded and gorgeously atmospheric. If the previous Zander/Philharmonia Telarc release on SACD (Mahler's 5th) was a bit bass-shy, the new recording captures the voice of the orchestra like no other I've ever heard, from deep rumbling bass to crystalline highs.--High Fidelity

In particular, the orchestra's weak trombones, tuba, and lower strings fail to give the music the solid bass lines it requires. Page after page of fortissimo writing cries out for greater force and clarity at the lower end of the sonic spectrum... At lower dynamic levels, the sound loses body and texture, and numerous details go missing--Classics Today

Aren't reveiws helpful? ;D

I'm somewhere in the middle: I'm not gaga over it like High Fidelity but I think it deserves a higher rating than Hurwitz gives it. There are some incredibly beautiful things about it. Hurwitz thinks the pastoral section has a glacial pace...I think it's utterly haunting at this speed, maybe the best I've ever heard. The musical pulse almost comes to a complete stop but that suspension of time is magical with the cowbells perfectly placed in the picture. Zander's Andante is nearly as beautiful as Karajan's, and slower than Barbirolli! I usually prefer things on the slow side and for me Zander paces it just right. He really milks it (milks those cows, so to speak ;D ) with lots of expressive molding and rubato. It has tremendous emotional impact Timings for the versions of the Andante that I own:

Karajan       17:10
Zander        16:23
Bernstein     16:16
Bertini         16:16 
Barbirolli      16:03
Solti           15:34
Sanderling   14:53
Boulez        14:47
Chailly        14:40
Szell           13:30
Kubelik        11:35

Zander's Finale is almost as slow as Barbirolli's although it seems to me considerably tamer. There's some interesting details, though, that I don't recall noticing in other versions. It just doesn't have the visceral punch of a Bernstein or Solti though. I appreciate the inclusion of the third hammerblow...and the hammerblows themselves are STUNNING! Best ever...the way I always imagined them. Just beware you don't destroy your speakers...or your ears if you use headphones! The problem is Zander makes nothing of the approach to those first two thrunder cracks; the music just doesn't carry much weight or sense of unstoppable, optimistic momentum the way it should; the blows seem to come out of nowhere, and fit nowhere. The music really takes off after the second one, though, and I enjoyed the ride all the way to the third blow (less powerful than the previous two, just as Mahler requests)

The major disappointment for me is the first movement. It didn't grab me until that central pastoral episode. The fate motive goes for nothing; has no sense of foreboding. And it's this movement especially where I noticed the weak brass that Hurwitz complains about (I'd add backwardly placed horns too) and really, when the miusic gets soft it practically disappears. You need to crank up your system considerably to keep any kind of presence.

I'm glad I own this (especially for that wonderful Andante and some interesting details he unearths) but it doesn't displace my favorite recordings: Solti, Karajan, Szell, Chailly.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 06:28:57 AM
Very interesting, Sarge, thank you!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 06:37:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 06:28:57 AM
Very interesting, Sarge, thank you!

I revised it somewhat, Karl. You might want to reread the part about the third hammblow.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on May 03, 2007, 06:44:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 06:26:09 AM
Timings for the versions of the Andante that I own:

Karajan       17:10
Zander        16:23
Bernstein     16:16
Bertini         16:16 
Barbirolli      16:03
Solti           15:34
Sanderling   14:53
Boulez        14:47
Chailly        14:40
Szell           13:30
Kubelik        11:35

Sinopoli 19:53
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 06:49:55 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 03, 2007, 06:44:33 AM
Sinopoli 19:53

Really?... I've got to hear that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 06:50:45 AM
Noted, Sarge, thanks!

Quote from: Drasko on May 03, 2007, 06:44:33 AM
Sinopoli 19:53

Zowie, Milos!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2007, 06:52:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 06:49:55 AM
Really?... I've got to hear that.

Sarge

Sarge, are you sure about the timings for Szell and Kubelik? I don't have the CDs in front of me but I don't seem to remember them being so brisk?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 07:01:17 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2007, 06:52:59 AM
Sarge, are you sure about the timings for Szell and Kubelik? I don't have the CDs in front of me but I don't seem to remember them being so brisk?

That's what it says on the covers, PW, and my computer just confirmed Szell at 13:35 with the actual perfomance lasting 13:30 (there are a few seconds filled with audience noise between the end of the Andante and the beginning of the Finale). Kulbelik I can't immediately confirm: I have it on LP. I'll have to spin it on the Thorens and time it with my stopwatch. It does seem unbelievably fast, you're right. But that's the major reason very little of Kubelik's Mahler appeals to me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2007, 07:08:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 07:01:17 AM
That's what it says on the covers, PW, and my computer just confirmed Szell at 13:35 with the actual perfomance lasting 13:30 (there are a few seconds filled with audience noise between the end of the Andante and the beginning of the Finale. Kulbelik I can't immediately confirm: I have it on LP. I'll have to spin it on the Thorens and time it with my stopwatch. It does seem incredibly fast, you're right. But that's the major reason very little of Kubelik's Mahler appeals to me.

Sarge

Thanks Sarge. I have the Kubelik set also. It has been a few years since I have listened to it so I don't remember much.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 07:11:58 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2007, 07:08:54 AM
Thanks Sarge. I have the Kubelik set also. It has been a few years since I have listened to it so I don't remember much.

I just looked at the LP again: both the Scherzo and the Andante fit on one side! That's fast! ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 03, 2007, 07:20:32 AM
I am pretty staggered by the continuing downpour of Mahler recordings. Clearly it indicates the grip his music has over many of us. I have what I think are quite a lot of Mahler recordings, can I need more? Would I really notice the difference if I had say 20 versions of the 9th symphony? It is one of my favourite pieces bar none. I have four versions and have been tempted into a fifth, but reason prevailed.

In this month's Gramophone there are intimations of the following... without completely scouring the magazine.

An entire cycle by Zinman, Sym no 1 is just available. The new Baremboim 9th. Another 9th Sinopoli, I think never previously issued. A new Mahler 1 Jansons with the Concertgbouw, a new Chicago SO No 3 from Haitink, a reissue of Rattle's Das Lied from EMI. Apart from this we know Boulez is recording the 8th. And so it goes.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 07:24:19 AM
Boulez slated to record the Eighth, eh?

Just as long as he doesn't touch Shostakovich, whom he famously derided as "third-pressing Mahler"  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 07:46:07 AM
Quote from: knight on May 03, 2007, 07:20:32 AM
I am pretty staggered by the continuing downpour of Mahler recordings. Clearly it indicates the grip his music has over many of us. I have what I think are quite a lot of Mahler recordings, can I need more? Would I really notice the difference if I had say 20 versions of the 9th symphony? It is one of my favourite pieces bar none. I have four versions and have been tempted into a fifth, but reason prevailed.

Verily, the correct number of Mahler recordings of any one symphony needed by any one person is 12. You shall not stop before 12, you shall not commit gross sin by lusting for more than your share. With 13 you needlessly duplicate and waste precious resources. Feed the poor instead.

Thus Spake Sarge

Quote from: knight on May 03, 2007, 07:20:32 AM
In this month's Gramophone there are intimations of the following... without completely scouring the magazine.

An entire cycle by Zinman, Sym no 1 is just available. The new Baremboim 9th. Another 9th Sinopoli, I think never previously issued. A new Mahler 1 Jansons with the Concertgbouw, a new Chicago SO No 3 from Haitink, a reissue of Rattle's Das Lied from EMI. Apart from this we know Boulez is recording the 8th. And so it goes.

Mike

And two years ago Norman Lebrecht declared the classical recording industry dead ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 07:47:18 AM
I declare the Norman Lebrecht publication enterprise dead  0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 07:48:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 07:47:18 AM
I declare the Norman Lebrecht publication enterprise dead  0:)

Where should we hold the funeral?   :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 03, 2007, 08:23:11 AM
Mahler may be marching ahead, but the Gramophone had only four opers to review this month, only one of which I had heard of.

I suppose three obscure operas in a month is good in its way, but the entire spectrum of opera is generating less than Mahler by himself, when there are great recordings already of everything he wrote...and there is not exactly an overwhelming amount of work to choose from.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: dtwilbanks on May 03, 2007, 08:25:41 AM
Mahler is the new Beethoven.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2007, 08:47:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 07:01:17 AM
That's what it says on the covers, PW, and my computer just confirmed Szell at 13:35 with the actual perfomance lasting 13:30 (there are a few seconds filled with audience noise between the end of the Andante and the beginning of the Finale. Kulbelik I can't immediately confirm: I have it on LP. I'll have to spin it on the Thorens and time it with my stopwatch. It does seem incredibly fast, you're right. But that's the major reason very little of Kubelik's Mahler appeals to me.

Mmmm .... maybe I should get Kubelik's complete set then?

Because he's known for his rather brisk tempi.

And I guess he might be right.

(Dare I say this?)

I only know Kubelik's 1st (once heard it, don't 'own' it), 4th and 8th.
The 4th is my favourite symphony, and I like Kubelik's approach very much. The slow movement is taking him around 18 minutes, which is .... way too slow! :o

Nevertheless he's rather quick, compared to many others.

From what I know, Mahler once wrote to Natalie Bauer-Lechner that the entire 4th symphony should last around 45 minutes!
Kubelik's performance lasts 52 minutes, he's (again) rather fast compared to many others.
In his autograph score Mahler has written down the amount of minutes that the movements should last: 15-10-11-8! (At least scholars assume that's what he meant by writing down these figures.)

This would mean, regarding the recordings I know, that lots of conductors take the second movement somewhat too fast (I admit that I've always liked Inbal here, and now that I own the Bertini I also like him :)), and the third movement way too slow. Mahler also told Bauer-Lechner that the third movement should actually be played as a 'Moderato'.

Willem Mengelberg was praised by Mahler, because he played his symphonies exactly the way Mahler wanted to. We know that Mengelberg played the 5th symphony 'Adagietto' very fast and lively, in less than 8 minutes! Also Bruno Walter (who was Mahler's assistent-conductor in Vienna) was known for his rather animated interpretation of this movement. Nowadays a performance in 9 minutes is considered 'fast'.

I think that in Mahler's conception - maybe even in most people's conception during 'his' lifetime - the slow movements were to be played faster than we got used to in 'our' 20th century. It wouldn't surprise me if this goes for a lot of music, from pre-baroque until post-romantics. Since the HIP-revolution a lot of Bach's music, to name but one, is played much faster and brisker.
I sometimes feel that, during the 20th century, a lot of music (particularly slow movements and church music) was copiously dowsed with some (overdone) romantic respectively pious dressing. Romantic or pious, that is to say: the way that people in the 20th century began to think what 'romantic' or 'pious' meant, or should mean.

In this connection I think of some 20th century arrangements of classical 'hits'. During the 20th century listeners got used to very slow tempi for Jesus, joy of man's desiring and Purcell's When I am laid in earth. What great and lovely religious and/or romantic music!

But who believes that the way the Vatican choir nowadays is singing 'their' Renaissance choral works (slow and with an awful lot of vibato) has got anything to do with the way these works were sung in the 16th century?

Or listen, for instance, to Elgar conducting some of his own compositions: from what I've read about it when these recordings were re-issued, the tempi he chose were much faster than most listeners were used to. So some critics said: this can't be right, Elgar was forced to do this because it had to fit on a 78TPM disc.

But is this really true?



BTW: don't get me wrong, I'm really not sure about the rightness of these assumptions. I'm curious what other listeners think. But from the moment I started listening to Mahler, I preferred many slow movements to be played a bit faster, and some of the 'faster' movements a bit slower ;D, like the 'scherzi' of the 4th and 5th symphony.
And I also believe that a good conductor can be convincing, even when chosing the 'wrong' tempo. I like Kuijken's slow but appealing and expressive interpretation of Bach's Johannes-Passion.
I also like Haitink's very slow Adagietto with the Berliner, because it's played in an intense way.

But, to be honest, I prefer Barshai. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 09:57:12 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 08:47:19 AM
Mmmm .... maybe I should get Kubelik's complete set then?
Because he's known for his rather brisk tempi.
And I guess he might be right.
(Dare I say this?)

Yes, you can and you're right about Mahler's preferred tempos being, in general, much faster than is the norm today. In Henry-Louis de La Grange's Gustave Mahler he cites times clocked by those who heard Mahler and his contemporaries conduct the symphonies. I have no time to list them now (I just dropped in briefly while I wait for the potatoes to finish boiling--I'm primary cook in this house) but I'll be back later to discuss this. I'll just say now that I think Mahler was usually wrong. We know better today ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: from the new world on May 03, 2007, 10:02:56 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 08:47:19 AM
From what I know, Mahler once wrote to Natalie Bauer-Lechner that the entire 4th symphony should last around 45 minutes!
Kubelik's performance lasts 52 minutes, he's (again) rather fast compared to many others.
In his autograph score Mahler has written down the amount of minutes that the movements should last: 15-10-11-8! (At least scholars assume that's what he meant by writing down these figures.)

This would mean, regarding the recordings I know, that lots of conductors take the second movement somewhat too fast (I admit that I've always liked Inbal here, and now that I own the Bertini I also like him :)), and the third movement way too slow. Mahler also told Bauer-Lechner that the third movement should actually be played as a 'Moderato'.

What is interesting to note is that there are many scores, including Shostakovich and the 1960's Mahler critical edition publications, include approximate timings. From memory, I believe that the 1st is 50 min, 2nd is 80 min, 3rd is 95 min, 4th is 50 min, 5th is 65 min, 7th is 80 min, 8th is 90min, 9th is 75 min, 10th is 22 min. All these are shorter than the "average" of today's performances, except for the 8th, where I only know one recording over 90 min, that by Wyn Morris.

As to the 6th, specific movement times are given, there are two sets:
1) 22,12,15,30  2) 23,15,13,31 reflecting the change the change in movement order. I do not know if these numbers were generated at the time, or based on earlier performances. I would doubt that the 15-10-11-8 is correct, not least since it suggests that an adagio/andante is to be played faster than a moderato/allegretto, which is very strange.

I would just point out that specific numbers may well be incorrect, so if anyone has the scores at hand, then the timings can be correctd.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2007, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2007, 09:57:12 AM
[....] I'll be back later to discuss this. I'll just say now that I think Mahler was usually wrong.

:o ??

;D ;D

That's THE approach! Liked it. Take your time with the argumentation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2007, 11:12:50 AM
Quote from: from the new world on May 03, 2007, 10:02:56 AM
I would doubt that the 15-10-11-8 is correct, not least since it suggests that an adagio/andante is to be played faster than a moderato/allegretto, which is very strange.

Well, these are the numbers in Mahler's own handwriting, in his own autographic score. I think that 'Poco adagio' is somewhat confusing. Like he told Natalie Bauer-Lechner: it should be played as a Moderato.

But, as we just heard from Sarge, Mahler was usually wrong in advising the tempos in his own work. ;)

BTW: you're talking about andante/adagio. From what I know, there can be a great difference between Andante (this 3th movement is not an Andante) and Adagio. My school teacher always told me that 'Andante' just meant 'going'. So: not specifically 'slow'. Lots of HIP-performers of 17th and 18th century music have been taken notice of this. Not to everybody's liking, of course. :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: from the new world on May 03, 2007, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 11:12:50 AM
BTW: you're talking about andante/adagio. From what I know, there can be a great difference between Andante (this 3th movement is not an Andante) and Adagio. My school teacher always told me that 'Andante' just meant 'going'. So: not specifically 'slow'. Lots of HIP-performers of 17th and 18th century music have been taken notice of this. Not to everybody's liking, of course. :'(

What I mean is that taking into account the allegro sections later on, overall the pace would seem to balance out as nearer what might be termed an andante.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2007, 11:58:57 AM
OK.
I just assumed you were trying to indicate that 'andante' and 'adagio' are more or less the same.

Back to G. Mahler, then. A rather popular composer on this forum. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 12:00:24 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 11:58:57 AM
I just assumed you were trying to indicate that 'andante' and 'adagio' are more or less the same.

Never!  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mahlertitan on May 03, 2007, 07:50:58 PM
is it me, or do any of you also find the second movement of Mahler's 7th symphony "nachtmusik I" addictive. I probably listened to that single movement hundreds of times, and i still find it fascinating.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2007, 11:44:46 PM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on May 03, 2007, 07:50:58 PM
is it me, or do any of you also find the second movement of Mahler's 7th symphony "nachtmusik I" addictive. I probably listened to that single movement hundreds of times, and i still find it fascinating.

I totally understand. But I do have my 'own' addictive single Mahler movements. If you do not mind, I'd like to share them with you. ;)

Second symphony: Finale (but 'only' the final chorus: Aufersteh'n, ja, aufersteh'n ..... I still - after all those years of listening - get very emotional at the point where the choir is singing: "Sterben werd' ich um zu leben!")
Fifth symphony: Third movement (Scherzo).
Seventh symphony: First movement.
Tenth symphony: Adagio in F sharp (first movement).

The most addictive symphonies (in total): 4 and 5.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 04:35:59 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 08:47:19 AM
The 4th is my favourite symphony, and I like Kubelik's approach very much. The slow movement is taking him around 18 minutes, which is .... way too slow! :o

Nevertheless he's rather quick, compared to many others.

Yes, most performances I know are in the 20 plus range

Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 08:47:19 AM
From what I know, Mahler once wrote to Natalie Bauer-Lechner that the entire 4th symphony should last around 45 minutes!
Kubelik's performance lasts 52 minutes, he's (again) rather fast compared to many others.
In his autograph score Mahler has written down the amount of minutes that the movements should last: 15-10-11-8! (At least scholars assume that's what he meant by writing down these figures.)

Mahler kept revising his scores, including changing the tempos, often after a first performance. The Fourth, for example: the first printed proofs have different tempo indications than the autograph, and again different markings show up in the 1905 edition. Mahler's 1904 performance in Amsterdam had timings of 20-8-19-10. The first movement should be in an almost constant state of flux. Some early critics, comparing Mengelberg and Walter, thought Mengelberg's numerous changes of tempo were what Mahler wanted and Walter's more steady pacing was wrong (they'd probably crucify Boulez for his Fourth  ;D )

Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 08:47:19 AM
I also like Haitink's very slow Adagietto with the Berliner, because it's played in an intense way.
But, to be honest, I prefer Barshai. :)

Barshai: 8:26. Mahler would have approved. In Hamburg his Adagietto was clocked at 9 minutes. His disciples, Walter and Mengelberg, usually finished it off in less than 8, sometimes as fast as 7 minutes (Mengelberg's 1926 recording).

I still prefer it slower but I can happily listen to it at any speed and be seduced into any mood the music wants. Discussing the tempo of the Adagietto on another forum, someone recommended I hear Haitink. I should track that down. Thanks for reminding me. :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 04, 2007, 04:37:18 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 11:44:46 PM
I totally understand. But I do have my 'own' addictive single Mahler movements. If you do not mind, I'd like to share them with you. ;)

Second symphony: Finale (but 'only' the final chorus: Aufersteh'n, ja, aufersteh'n ..... I still - after all those years of listening - get very emotional at the point where the choir is singing: "Sterben werd' ich um zu leben!")
Fifth symphony: Third movement (Scherzo).
Seventh symphony: First movement.
Tenth symphony: Adagio in F sharp (first movement).
pretty much the same as mine, minus the 3rd from the 5th
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 04:49:42 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on May 03, 2007, 07:50:58 PM
is it me, or do any of you also find the second movement of Mahler's 7th symphony "nachtmusik I" addictive.

I do. I often listen to it separate from the other movements, or sometimes I'll just play the middle three (that first movement can be exhausting!). Titan, you really should hear what Klemperer does with this: he makes it sound almost like Webern! It's amazing. He makes you understand why Schönberg and company thought so highly of it.

In my youth it was the first movement of the Third I was addicted to. In fact, I didn't even care for the rest of the symphony (the Third was my problem Mahler...took me many, many years to absorb the whole).

Today, besides the Nachtmusik I, I listen to the Andante of the Sixth more than any other single Mahler movement.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:59:27 AM
Why, you lads almost convince me to break out a recording of the Mahler Seventh!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 05:03:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:59:27 AM
Why, you lads almost convince me to break out a recording of the Mahler Seventh!  :)

We Mahlerites continue to pray for you, Karl, and we have faith that eventually you'll see the Light and come worship at the altar with us  ;D

Seriously, the Seventh is worth investigating even if you don't end up with any significant appreciation.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 04, 2007, 05:03:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 04:59:27 AM
Why, you lads almost convince me to break out a recording of the Mahler Seventh!  :)
oh no way!
Karl's actually gonna do it  :o

for the seventh symphony, the only movement i ever listen to is the 1st, which is just mindblowing, full of Mahlerian activity and energy. The rest are more playful..... give it a listen and send me some thoughts.  8)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 04, 2007, 05:03:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 05:03:05 AM
We Mahlerites continue to pray for you, Karl, and we have faith that eventually you'll see the Light and come worship at the altar with us  ;D

Seriously, the Seventh is worth investigating even if you don't end up with any significant appreciation.

Sarge
;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 05:12:11 AM
(* Gee, I wonder if Borders has the Dover score for the Mahler Seventh . . . . *)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2007, 05:16:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 05:12:11 AM
(* Gee, I wonder if Borders has the Dover score for the Mahler Seventh . . . . *)

"Always give in to peer pressure!" - Homer Simpson    ;D

Do it, do it, do it!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 05:42:47 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 03, 2007, 10:36:24 AM
:o ??

;D ;D

That's THE approach! Liked it. Take your time with the argumentation.

Of course I was joking about Mahler being wrong. But music is an interpretive art and unlike a painter, sculptor or author, a composer needs someone to present his art to the public. The composer knows how he wants his music to go but the rub is, trying to convince the performer to do it his way! It's somewhat analogous to digital media: once you put it out there, make it available to the world, you lose control of it and once a person (in this case a conductor) gets a hold of a score, he thinks he has the right to do anything he wants with it...within certain limiitations and rules. But that's what makes music so interesting: the Mona Lisa is never going to change (you've seen her once, you've seen her) but I've never heard a Mahler symphony performed the same way twice.

I don't know why performances have steadily become slower over the course of the twentieth century, but Mahler isn't the only composer affected (Bruckner too has suffered a steady erosion of speed). From a strictly personal point of view, I'd say it's happened because Mahler's music does sound better when a conductor take more time with it. Contrary to dB's assertion, the music is complex, there's a lot going on, details ARE important and shouldn't be glossed over or rushed by. I'm not unreasonable though; I don't demand slow tempos all the time. I appreciate a wide variety of interpretation; some of my favorite Sixths, for example, are on the fast side (Solti, Szell). Kubelik, though, is obviously nuts ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 04, 2007, 06:19:20 AM
I've also been dangerously addicted to the 1st movement of the 3rd. I've forcibly put it on the shelf until the score arrives. But thanks to that I've gotten to know that mvmt really well. It's still my favorite mvmt of that symphony, but the final mvmt is close behind.

Maybe it's just me, but I just hear Shostakovich 5th everytime in that opening. (The rising horns with the full orchestra dum-dum) The 3rd and 5th have openings that just grab you by the throat. I'd give anything to hear those symphonies live!!

So many great things just in that 1st mvmt. of the 3rd. The contrast between the funeral march of the frozen earth and the sweet and boisterous sounds of awakening summer. The light and the dark side. (I like the dark side better!  8)) I love those falling trombone glissandos, especially when they're really nasty! His brass writing is to die for.

There's this one moment that I adore the most: It's after the first long trombone solo, when the whole section comes in, and suddenly goes into this fanfare in a major key that slows down and ends nastily back in the minor key with the full orchestra and a muted trumpet call. (In Chailly 9:14-9:25, and he's got some low-down dirty trombones!)

Then this nationalistic march out of nowhere, which sounds English to my ears. Crazy. And Chailly plays it so cute and mockingly. ;) Such proper stiff-upper lip playing when a few minutes before they were unwashed brutes, I love it.

At around 17 min is that the posthorn solo? It sounds a lot like a euphonium or baritone. I think they're close to the same thing.

Then the circus appears! (With the shrill trilling winds and tamborine and oom-pah accompaniment.) But it's kind of like a broken amusement ride. Especially with the off-kilter snare drum cadence, this part right here is so Ives to me!

And suddenly we're back at the beginning again. Winter tries one more time but her trombone is seized by the haze of summer and ends up swooning in the major key. Leading tones are used to great effect in his themes here.

For the last time, summer marches in from the distance, with great pompous fanfare. And what's this, the trombones have submitted! They take over the melody, joyfully, happily singing a song of summer.

And finally everybody dances around the Maypole, rounding up with a perfectly royal brass chorale and fanfare. (God, the brass players must have their lips falling off by this point.) The ending (the last minute) is so brilliant, another favorite part. Charge!!

And, I wasn't going to listen to the while darn mvmt again! Dang it, Sarge...  ;D

The 7th is best taken a movement at a time, and I do find myself listening to that mvmt often. But like the 3rd, it's also locked away until I get the score! Again, this macabre march weaving in and out of major and minor, like a broken music box. Utterly hypnotic. There's so much I still don't understand about that symphony. Which is why I love it.

*This post has been edited because I had too many emoticons the 1st time around. See what Mahler does to me?! Ach, help!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 07:05:16 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 04, 2007, 06:19:20 AM
I've also been dangerously addicted to the 1st movement of the 3rd...I'd give anything to hear those symphonies live!!

I enjoy reading your detailed, subjective responses to Mahler. It's great witnessing someone discovering Mahler for the first time. This post, on the Third, was superb, Greta, and expresses closely what I feel about the music.

I've been lucky this year: I heard Chailly, Petra Lang and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig perform the Third. It was a concert celebrating the anniversary of the new Gewandhaus. It was one of the truly great experiences of my life. Last month we went to Berlin for the Staatskapelle's Mahler Cycle: we heard Boulez in the Eighth and Barenboim conducted the Fifth and Seventh. Oh my...  (You're a member of operashare? Good quality mp3s of the Seventh and Eighth were posted shortly after the concerts.)

I'm leaving shortly to attend a Hilary Hahn recital in Mannheim but I'll comment further when I get back home.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 04, 2007, 07:23:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 05:12:11 AM
(* Gee, I wonder if Borders has the Dover score for the Mahler Seventh . . . . *)
unlikely, unless it's a big Borders.... (but still possible)

hey, i want that score too  :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 07:32:04 AM
Quote from: greg on May 04, 2007, 07:23:58 AM
unlikely, unless it's a big Borders.... (but still possible)

The Borders on School Street, in terms of the Dover scores they carry, is but a shell of its former self.

Neither the School Street nor the Boylston Street store has this 'un.

And of course, the Boston Music Company is long gone . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 04, 2007, 07:35:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 07:32:04 AM
The Borders on School Street, in terms of the Dover scores they carry, is but a shell of its former self.

Neither the School Street nor the Boylston Street store has this 'un.

And of course, the Boston Music Company is long gone . . . .

There is always eBay, where I got my Mahler 7 Score
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 04, 2007, 09:25:46 AM
Mine is on its way from Amazon Marketplace for ~$10.

We should have a GMG M7 Listening Party! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: zamyrabyrd on May 04, 2007, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 12:35:06 PM
I doubt the Adagietto was a musical love letter. The Adagietto and the Lieder Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen share themes and to my ears express the same feelings. It seems a very strange way to profess love by using a song that says, "I have lost track of the world with which I used to waste much time...I am dead to the world...I live alone in my heaven, in my loving, in my song."...Sarge

Yes, indeed! I'm SO glad you mentioned this. And it's in the same key of F. You have the same notes even, C, D, F and A. Now for yet ANOTHER connection to the Lied von der Erde the same A to middle C oscillation that Lenny mentioned in the Norton lectures on the Adagietto (see below link*) opens that movement. I think it may be harp as well in the Lied. There seems to be quite a bit of motivic interlinking in his works. Maybe someone should do a study, or perhaps it has already been done...

*http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,437.msg11979.html#msg11979
Zb
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: zamyrabyrd on May 04, 2007, 10:18:47 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 01, 2007, 10:30:30 PM

His themes are really beautiful here. Those passionate cries full of chromaticism after the opening march, wow, it simply explodes. Truly amazing writing. It's very interesting how he's in minor, and then will suddenly have a fanfare (the one at the end of that first big outburst) end on major chords, like the dark side's devilish false triumph.


Hi Greta,
I also pulled out a recording of the 5th with Mehta and the New York Phil and thought more or less the same thing about the major chords in the first movement. Somehow they are all the more bitter than the minor would be in their place. Those first few bars are amazing and need an absolutely fearless leader to call on the orchestra to "follow me". Fortunately, in this recording the trumpeter was more than up to standard.

Zb
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 11:46:49 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 04, 2007, 09:25:46 AM
Mine is on its way from Amazon Marketplace for ~$10.

We should have a GMG M7 Listening Party! :D

My, now that's an idea.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 04, 2007, 02:26:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2007, 12:35:06 PM
I doubt the Adagietto was a musical love letter. The Adagietto and the Lieder Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen share themes and to my ears express the same feelings. It seems a very strange way to profess love by using a song that says, "I have lost track of the world with which I used to waste much time...I am dead to the world...I live alone in my heaven, in my loving, in my song."

I must admit it doesn't seem strange to me. To me, it's pure love poetry. Getting rid of the awful world and being sunk into your own imagination of heaven, with the persons and music you so deeply love.
Of course this is a sort of love that is closely related to a longing for death: when you're dead, all the earthly pains will disappear, and you will be reunited in heaven with the persons you loved and who have departed before you.

Sterben werd' ich um zu leben, nicht wahr?

These are exactly the feelings that come over me a lot of times when listening to Mahler, and then I get hovered between faith/comfort and restlessness. That's why his music touches me. Mahler's music is very close to life, IMHO, because generally it delivers more questions than answers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve on May 04, 2007, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 04, 2007, 02:26:59 PM
I must admit it doesn't seem strange to me. To me, it's pure love poetry. Getting rid of the awful world and being sunk into your own imagination of heaven, with the persons and music you so deeply love.
Of course this is a sort of love that is closely related to a longing for death: when you're dead, all the earthly pains will disappear, and you will be reunited in heaven with the persons you loved and who have departed before you.

Sterben werd' ich um zu leben, nicht wahr?

These are exactly the feelings that come over me a lot of times when listening to Mahler, and then I get hovered between faith/comfort and restlessness. That's why his music touches me. Mahler's music is very close to life, IMHO, because generally it delivers more questions than answers.

Well said, Marc. Spoken like a true Mahlerite. Sometimes simply finding the adequate diction to summarize one's experience with this music can be incredibly difficult. Ultimately, I'm often left with the cliche of a portrait of human nature or of reality. Something fresh with each listen.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 02:45:58 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 04, 2007, 02:26:59 PM
I must admit it doesn't seem strange to me. To me, it's pure love poetry. Getting rid of the awful world and being sunk into your own imagination of heaven, with the persons and music you so deeply love.
Of course this is a sort of love that is closely related to a longing for death: when you're dead, all the earthly pains will disappear, and you will be reunited in heaven with the persons you loved and who have departed before you.

Sterben werd' ich um zu leben, nicht wahr?

Well, that Teutonic Romantic notion has always bothered me; I prefer, Leben werd' ich um zu Sterben. :)

But anyway, the last lines of the Rückert song are specific that he's living alone in his heaven; there is no hope of reuniting with a beloved; it's over, he's done with the world (and the world includes his beloved). The love he's now experiencing, it seems to me, is a lost love, and his feelings are akin to nostalgia, his songs celebrating the dead past:

Ich leb' allein in meinem Himmel,
In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied!

(This reminds me of Simon and Garfunkel's song, I Am a Rock:

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.)


The cycle continues in that forlorn vein with the last song, Um Mitternacht, making it clear that there is no hope, no light, only darkness; no sign of a beloved to light up his life.


Es hat kein Lichtgedanken
Mir Trost gebracht
Um Mitternacht.


Since I believe the Rückertlieder and the Adagietto are related not only by specific musical themes but by a dark pessimism and sense of loss, I'll remain skeptical that Mahler conceived this as a love song. Of course your interpretation is perfectly valid too. I can see your point and you may be right: the one troubling snag with my theory: why would Mengelberg make up the story?

In the end, though, we bring ourselves to art: we see, hear and interpret through the filters of our individual experiences and beliefs. Ain't it grand we have so many performances to choose from? We can all find a conductor who gives a performance to fit our personality

Quote
These are exactly the feelings that come over me a lot of times when listening to Mahler, and then I get hovered between faith/comfort and restlessness. That's why his music touches me. Mahler's music is very close to life, IMHO, because generally it delivers more questions than answers.

Well said, and true.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2007, 03:34:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 02:45:58 AM
Well, that Teutonic Romantic notion has always bothered me; I prefer, Leben werd' ich um zu Sterben. :)

Good for you! :D

Quote from: Sergeant Rock
But anyway, the last lines of the Rückert song is specific that he's living alone in his heaven; there is no hope of reuniting with a beloved; it's over, he's done with the world (and the world includes his beloved). The love he's now experiencing, it seems to me, is a lost love, and his feelings are akin to nostalgia, his songs celebrating the dead past [....]

You certainly do have a point there. Maybe I was a bit too enthousiastic, and therefore too hasty, with my 'interpretation'.
But I'm still not sure that the narrator meant this poem to be 'sad' (and it can still be a love song; maybe not in the average meaning, but more as a comfort for the narrator himself). The fact that Um Mitternacht is comfortless might also lead to the conclusion that eventually the narrator has found a way to deal with his earthly pain in the way he describes in Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen.
And of course, there is some kind of a problem with 'love': is it really possible to experience it as a combined fusion, both lovers in the same intense way? Or is it in many cases 'allein Lieben', exceptions excluded? Is longing, on your own, and by your own, sometimes more satisfying than being able to really love that other person? Are we really able to love our beloved?
Wasn't this maybe the case with Mahler and Alma? Was he able to love her in the 'average' way? Didn't he want to love her in his 'own way'? Was this to be said in the 'Adagietto', like a kind of very personal love song?
Mahler and Mengelberg became close friends when Mahler visited the Netherlands. Maybe he discussed his feelings for Alma with Mengelberg and others? Like he did with Freud, in Leiden?

Für dich leben! Für dich sterben .... Almschi!

Tenth symphony: a love song??

How many of us are able to really feel this way for another human being?
Alma was much younger than Mahler; somehow I get the feeling that their interpretations of 'real love' were not the same. So she tried her 'luck' with others, like Gropius.
Maybe Mahler could foresee this in an earlier stage? Maybe he was already amazed by the fact that this 'most wanted woman in Vienna and widely spread neighbourhood' fell in love with him. Could he really believe it?

Errr .... is this the right forum for this? What am I discussing?
Mahler's music? Rückert's poetry? Music and poetry in my own personal experience? Mahler's personality, or Rückert's, or Alma's, .... or mine?

Should I post this? ;)

Ich leb' allein in meinem Himmel,
In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied!


Beautiful verses!
Beautiful music!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 05, 2007, 03:56:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 04, 2007, 07:05:16 AM
I enjoy reading your detailed, subjective responses to Mahler. It's great witnessing someone discovering Mahler for the first time. This post, on the Third, was superb, Greta, and expresses closely what I feel about the music.

Thanks for the compliment, Sarge. Deeply appreciated. I'm trying to improve on writing about music, so this means a lot! I usually just write as the music is playing, so it's pretty much stream-of-consciousness rambling. I find I have to hear a work by Mahler at least 5 times to really be able to speak coherently about it! :D

About the M5 Adagietto:
Quote...So you might not appreciate Lenny here. His reading takes 11:13. Me, I can listen to it played at any tempo but my desert island Adagietto is Herman Scherchen's at 13:07. I prefer it played, not as a simple interlude, quickly done away with, but as a major Mahlerian statement of world-weariness and loss.

Well, I looked at the timings on the 5ths I have so far, and listened to several Adagiettos - and guess what, I do too. Eschenbach comes in at a surprising 12:19. He didn't seem quite as slow as Karajan, but he has almost half a minute on him. Eschenbach does it so beautifully and earnestly, the sense of time is somehow suspended.

Here's a line-up of timings of what I have plus the info from Sarge:

13:07 Scherchen/?
12:19 Eschenbach/Houston
11:53 Karajan/Berlin
11:13 Bernstein/?
11:06 Levi/Atlanta
10:37 Haitink/RCO
10:06 Bertini/Cologne
9:51 Solti/CSO
9:32 Rattle/CBSO

I hadn't gotten through Rattle's M5 yet, but I had to put it on and see how he managed to get out in almost 9 1/2 min. It's lovely actually, played with a lot of earnest feeling, but it's more dramatic and romantic, a bit like a Hollywood film score, it doesn't "hover" at all. He does make his case, milking the recap for all its worth. Though the CBSO doesn't sound as good here as on some of their other recordings.

On the faster side, Bertini works the best for me, I haven't even heard the rest of his M5 yet, but he sees to all the details and it's also incredibly sincere. I like the way he points up the lyrical melodic line.

Though it's in any form a transcendant piece, Haitink worked less well for me, being so cool and pristine. Also Solti had to win me over, as the most romantic, but his forces play like soloists and he's searching and passionate.

I still do prefer mine slow, and would love to hear the Scherchen. Eschenbach and Karajan are about tied for my favs, not just for the Adagietto but favorite M5 all around. Their Adagiettos are really quite similar in interpretation, with Eschenbach less on the loud dynamic and a bit more gossamer.

Since I raved about his M5, here's the links -

http://rapidshare.com/files/27930208/Mahler_Sym_5_Houston_SO_Eschenbach.zip.001
http://rapidshare.com/files/27935524/Mahler_Sym_5_Houston_SO_Eschenbach.zip.002
http://rapidshare.com/files/27937035/Mahler_Sym_5_Houston_SO_Eschenbach.zip.003

Timings:
Trauermarsch 13:32
Sturmisch 26:38
Scherzo 19:44
Adagietto 12:19
Finale 15:16

This isn't a radio broadcast but a private label live recording so the quality is excellent, well mixed with a large dynamic range. I had heard great things about this recording but thought it had disappeared into the netherworld, it's not available anymore.

It was recorded Dec. 7, 1992 from the Musikverein in Vienna when Eschenbach took Houston on a successful European tour. This is a wonderful document of their partnership, it's too bad he didn't record more Mahler while here. His (also live) Houston M1 on Koch made this recommended recordings list (http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Choir/6196/Pages/RECORDINGS.html).

He's indeed a very fine Mahlerian and this M5 shows that. His phrases are carefully crafted with so much attention to detail, he has a clear idea of where he's going and leaves room to get there.

The playing is very fine, sensitive and precise, I'd say possibly the best Houston ever sounded, the connection with their conductor evident. The sections are properly balanced and each very clear, an attribute that has suffered since he left. He could have stayed here these last ten years and never had the Philly interlude, and, that would have likely been better for everyone all around. ;)

His Sturmisch bewegt, really shines, ultra lyrical and romantic, but never maudlin, tossing and tumbling you with the crest of each musical wave. Propulsively builds to a blazing climax and then slowly brings it down.

The Scherzo is light and frisky with the fugal elements and echoes played up nicely. Only one minor criticism for this M5, and that's the fact that his intensity flags somewhat in the chamber music sections following the mandolin solos.   

But at the heart is his Adagietto, a tender prayer enveloped in a soft haze, clearly he has a deep connection to Mahler's music. For me, his Mahler tells a story. After seeing the "A Wayfarer's Journey" PBS special I wonder if Eschenbach might've been thinking here back to his difficult childhood (orphaned in WWII) and love for his foster mother, I think those experiences perhaps color his Mahler, for the better.

In any case, he has some powerful things to say, if he ever finds the right partner to dance with again. I would love to hear his Philly 6th, now that I'm trying to move on to that symphony, it's looking like a must-purchase now.

I did actually listen to the 6th all the way through again last night, the live Mackerras with the BBC Phil (which was included in a BBC Music magazine I believe). Like you'd expect from Mackerras, it's very good music-making, sparkling, vivacious, wonderfully weird and spiky where needed, the BBCPO is superb. Features an Andante-Scherzo (not my fav but his works, a particularly fine Scherzo) and 3 very impressive hammerblows - he takes 29:24 for the Finale, and places them at 12:24, 16:44, and 26:43 respectively. I really like where he puts the 3rd, you're waiting and expecting it right on the big major chord after the gong, but he waits until after the wandering violin melody and BAM, puts it on that big minor chord crash. Fantastic.

I'm really looking forward to getting into the 6th, I think it's going to be the hardest for me so far. The 6th and 7th are both wild!  :o Okay, /end on the Mahler gush for today. It's crazy, I think I'm at 80% Mahler and 20% everyone else this week for listening. Hopefully this is just a temporary phase. ;) But there's so much Mahler, I'm having a blast...


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on May 05, 2007, 04:53:02 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 05, 2007, 03:56:40 AM
13:07 Scherchen/?
12:19 Eschenbach/Houston
11:53 Karajan/Berlin
11:13 Bernstein/?
11:06 Levi/Atlanta
10:37 Haitink/RCO
10:06 Bertini/Cologne
9:51 Solti/CSO
9:32 Rattle/CBSO

Walter/NYPO  7:38

Scherchen/Philadelphia 15:12

http://www.andante.com/article/piece.cfm?iConcPieceID=39 (http://www.andante.com/article/piece.cfm?iConcPieceID=39)

http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=16577&highlight=1&highlightterms=&lstKeywords= (http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=16577&highlight=1&highlightterms=&lstKeywords=)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 05, 2007, 05:01:52 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2007, 07:32:04 AM
The Borders on School Street, in terms of the Dover scores they carry, is but a shell of its former self.

Neither the School Street nor the Boylston Street store has this 'un.

And of course, the Boston Music Company is long gone . . . .
yep, sad stuff.......
i've went to some bookstores, like the closest mall to this place where I'm living now, and they don't have one single orchestral score, just guitar music and popular piano music  :(
it's like they don't even acknowledge the existence of the music i like

the Borders from before had a pretty good selection, a couple of rows on a shelf that included The Rite of Spring, The Planets, other decent stuff.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 05, 2007, 05:14:18 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 05, 2007, 03:56:40 AM
13:07 Scherchen/?
12:19 Eschenbach/Houston
11:53 Karajan/Berlin
11:13 Bernstein/?
11:06 Levi/Atlanta
10:37 Haitink/RCO
10:06 Bertini/Cologne
9:51 Solti/CSO
9:32 Rattle/CBSO

A few more:

Walter/NYPO: 7:43
Solti/CSO 1970: 9:51
Solti/CSO/1990: 9:42
Kubelik/BRSO: 9:44
Abbado/CSO: 11:55
Barenboim/CSO: 9:45
Barshai/JDP: 8:17
Chailly/RCO: 10:16
Kletzki/PO: 9:57

Of course, timings alone don't tell you how convincing the interpretation is.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 05, 2007, 05:29:11 AM
QuoteWalter/NYPO  7:38

Scherchen/Philadelphia 15:12

:o  Wow at both of those, and Walter is supposed to be a great Mahler interpreter, I'll have to seek him out.

I'd be more inclined to think that a successful 15 min. Adagietto would be tougher to pull off...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: zamyrabyrd on May 05, 2007, 05:58:32 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 05, 2007, 05:14:18 AM

Of course, timings alone don't tell you how convincing the interpretation is.

Add to the list Mehta/NYP 10:50 somewhere in the middle, just right for me. As the obsessive organizer, I put everything in order so far, the last astonishingly twice as fast as the first. Looks like the 9's have it.

Walter/NYPO: 7:43
Barshai/JDP: 8:17
Rattle/CBSO: 9:32
Solti/CSO/1990: 9:42
Barenboim/CSO: 9:45
Kubelik/BRSO: 9:44
Solti/CSO 1970: 9:51
Kletzki/PO: 9:57
Bertini/Cologne: 10:06
Chailly/RCO: 10:16
Haitink/RCO: 10:37
Mehta/NYP 10:50 
Levi/Atlanta: 11:06
Bernstein/?: 11:13
Karajan/Berlin: 11:53
Abbado/CSO: 11:55
Eschenbach/Houston: 12:19
Scherchen/Philadelphia: 15:12

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 06:21:41 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on May 05, 2007, 05:58:32 AM
Add to the list Mehta/NYP 10:50 somewhere in the middle, just right for me. As the obsessive organizer, I put everything in order so far, the last astonishingly twice as fast as the first. Looks like the 9's have it.

I added Maazel, Sinopoli, Neumann, Barbirolli, Levine and noted the Scherchen I have is with the ORTF (this is the infamous Fifth with the major cut in the Scherzo):

Walter/NYPO: 7:43
Barshai/JDP: 8:17
Rattle/CBSO: 9:32
Neumann/Gewand Leipzig: 9:40
Solti/CSO/1990: 9:42
Kubelik/BRSO: 9:44
Barenboim/CSO: 9:45
Solti/CSO 1970: 9:51
Barbirolli/New Philh: 9:52
Kletzki/PO: 9:57
Bertini/Cologne: 10:06
Chailly/RCO: 10:16
Sinopoli/Philh: 10:28
Maazel/Vienna: 10:33
Haitink/RCO: 10:37
Mehta/NYP 10:50 
Levi/Atlanta: 11:06
Bernstein/Vienna: 11:13
Karajan/Berlin: 11:53
Abbado/CSO: 11:55
Levine/Philadelphia: 12:03
Eschenbach/Houston: 12:19
Scherchen/ORTF: 13:07
Scherchen/Philadelphia: 15:12


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:26:17 AM
Scherchen did that, Sarge?  That surprises me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 06:34:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:26:17 AM
Scherchen did that, Sarge?  That surprises me.

I believe it was a case of French radio needing to fit the symphony into a short time slot. Still, I'm shocked he agreed to do it. Consider that the Scherzo is the heart of the symphony and normally lasts longer than any other movement...to whittle it down from 16-18 minutes to five is desecration, pure and simple.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 06:36:22 AM
My, I didn't realize the Abbado was so slow. Come to think of it, it looks like all of my 5ths are on the bottom of that list.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:40:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 06:34:37 AM
I believe it was a case of French radio needing to fit the symphony into a short time slot. Still, I'm shocked he agreed to do it. Consider that the Scherzo is the heart of the symphony and normally lasts longer than any other movement...to whittle it down from 16-18 minutes to five is desecration, pure and simple.

Desecration? Arrant butchery!  (And I say this in defense of Mahler!)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 06:45:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2007, 06:40:24 AM
Desecration? Arrant butchery!  (And I say this in defense of Mahler!)

I understand. Composers must stick together to fend off the philistines and barbarians!

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on May 05, 2007, 06:45:56 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 06:34:37 AM
I believe it was a case of French radio needing to fit the symphony into a short time slot. Still, I'm shocked he agreed to do it. Consider that the Scherzo is the heart of the symphony and normally lasts longer than any other movement...to whittle it down from 16-18 minutes to five is desecration, pure and simple.

Sarge

He did the same in Philadelphia, I believe to fit under hour radio slot. His commercial recording is uncut (and has, perhaps surprisingly, 9:15 Adagietto)

http://www.tagtuner.com/music/albums/Hermann-Scherchen,-VSOO/Mahler-5/album-v21ca327  (http://www.tagtuner.com/music/albums/Hermann-Scherchen,-VSOO/Mahler-5/album-v21ca327)  
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 06:56:20 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 06:36:22 AM
My, I didn't realize the Abbado was so slow. Come to think of it, it looks like all of my 5ths are on the bottom of that list.

You should consider adding Barshai to your collection of Fifths then. It's a first choice for many and has several things going for it: a swift Adagietto that Mahler would have approved; an intense, and intensely slow Scherzo (18:29), giving it proper weight and pride of place in this symphony; and played by a group of young people just bursting with energy and obviously dedicated to both Mahler and Barshai. It just misses my top rating because he underplays (to my ears) the chorale apotheosis in the second and last movements. I really want to hear a conductor pull in the reins here, stretch it out almost to the breaking point. Karajan, and surprisingly Neumann, give me what I want.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 07:00:26 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 05, 2007, 06:45:56 AM
He did the same in Philadelphia, I believe to fit under hour radio slot. His commercial recording is uncut (and has, perhaps surprisingly, 9:15 Adagietto)

That is odd. Have you heard any explanation why he'd be so slow in Philly and Paris, but so fast in Vienna?

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 07:01:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 07:00:26 AM
That is odd. Have you heard any explanation why he'd be so slow in Philly and Paris, but so fast in Vienna?

Sarge

I smell a quandry!  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on May 05, 2007, 07:04:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 07:00:26 AM
That is odd. Have you heard any explanation why he'd be so slow in Philly and Paris, but so fast in Vienna?

He was odd.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 07:08:15 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 05, 2007, 07:04:44 AM
He was odd.

;D :D ;D

Aren't we all  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on May 05, 2007, 07:13:56 AM
A random question which may well fit nicely here: Has anyone heard Zender's Mahler 7? I've a feeling he'd do a really job with this piece (composer's perspective and all).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:32:03 AM
Quote from: edward on May 05, 2007, 07:13:56 AM
A random question which may well fit nicely here: Has anyone heard Zender's Mahler 7? I've a feeling he'd do a really job with this piece (composer's perspective and all).

Its a marvelous 7th. Ideal tempi transitions, good sound, and just the right amount of energy. Easy rec.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on May 05, 2007, 08:51:10 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 05, 2007, 08:32:03 AM
Its a marvelous 7th. Ideal tempi transitions, good sound, and just the right amount of energy. Easy rec.

That is all very lovely but where to find the bloody thing. I've been wanting to hear it for years and never could track down a copy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: from the new world on May 05, 2007, 11:13:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 06:21:41 AM
I added Maazel, Sinopoli, Neumann, Barbirolli, Levine and noted the Scherchen I have is with the ORTF (this is the infamous Fifth with the major cut in the Scherzo):

Walter/NYPO: 7:43
Barshai/JDP: 8:17
Rattle/CBSO: 9:32
Neumann/Gewand Leipzig: 9:40
Solti/CSO/1990: 9:42
Kubelik/BRSO: 9:44
Barenboim/CSO: 9:45
Solti/CSO 1970: 9:51
Barbirolli/New Philh: 9:52
Kletzki/PO: 9:57
Bertini/Cologne: 10:06
Chailly/RCO: 10:16
Sinopoli/Philh: 10:28
Maazel/Vienna: 10:33
Haitink/RCO: 10:37
Mehta/NYP 10:50 
Levi/Atlanta: 11:06
Bernstein/Vienna: 11:13
Karajan/Berlin: 11:53
Abbado/CSO: 11:55
Levine/Philadelphia: 12:03
Eschenbach/Houston: 12:19
Scherchen/ORTF: 13:07
Scherchen/Philadelphia: 15:12

I would just have to add two further recordings, Haitink/BPO: 13:55, and Cobra/ Europa Philharmonia: 16:48 (adagietto only)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 12:05:51 PM
Quote from: from the new world on May 05, 2007, 11:13:20 AM
I would just have to add two further recordings, Haitink/BPO: 13:55, and Cobra/ Europa Philharmonia: 16:48 (adagietto only)


Thanks, I was hoping someone would add the timing for Haitink/Berlin.

Sarge

Edit: Maxiamanno Cobra's version can be downloaded here:

http://www.hodie-world.com/listenmahler_v.html

Go to the bottom of the page and right click the speaker symbol. It's a small file (less than 4mb), low quality (sounds synthetic in parts) but you'll get the idea.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 01:22:40 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 05, 2007, 03:34:50 AM

You certainly do have a point there. Maybe I was a bit too enthousiastic, and therefore too hasty, with my 'interpretation'....

Should I post this? ;)

Ich leb' allein in meinem Himmel,
In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied!


Beautiful verses!
Beautiful music!

I'm not ignoring you, Marc. I'm still digesting your post and will reply eventually.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 05, 2007, 03:50:49 PM
QuoteI would just have to add two further recordings, Haitink/BPO: 13:55, and Cobra/ Europa Philharmonia: 16:48 (adagietto only)

Big difference between the two Haitinks, interesting. Does anyone have Lenny's times besides with Vienna?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 07, 2007, 03:28:14 PM
Quote from: Greta on May 05, 2007, 03:50:49 PM
Big difference between the two Haitinks, interesting. Does anyone have Lenny's times besides with Vienna?

11:05, with the New York Phil on Sony

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 08, 2007, 08:33:58 AM
Frankly, I don't think overall tempo matters much. If you compare the three major Mahler disciples who performed his music in his presence or under his tutelage - i.e. Mengelberg, Walter, Klemperer - you realize that even among these firsthand witnesses there is no consensus at all. They differ so widely in their approach to the music that you can't really speak of a single "correct" approach that Mahler would have "approved" of.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sperlsco on May 08, 2007, 09:31:55 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 05, 2007, 03:56:40 AM
I really like where he puts the 3rd, you're waiting and expecting it right on the big major chord after the gong, but he waits until after the wandering violin melody and BAM, puts it on that big minor chord crash. Fantastic.

Yes, that is where the third hammerblow should be located (i.e. if it is indeed being reinsterted).  The hero thinks that he has escaped the blow since it does not happen where it did previously... and then BAM.  I think that the Makerras is a fabulous M6.  I actually re-burned the CD in Scherzo-Andante order, since that is my preference.  I also love swift Andante movements like this one, which IIRC clocks in around 14'. 

I also whole-heartedly agree with your accolades for the Eschenbach M5.  I live in Houston but am ashamed that I missed out on the Eschenbach years (although we are very fortunate to have Hans Graf these days).  His M6 with Philly is a big favorite of mine. 

It's interesting reading all of Sarge's comments.  He and I have totally different preferences for Mahler slow movements -- I prefer these all be played more swiftly M2-2, M3-2, M3-6, M4-3, M4-4, M5-4, M6-A, M7-4, M10-1, M10-5 (but not M9 BTW).  However, like Sarge I can get plenty of enjoyment from these played at just about ANY tempo. 

Scott
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: stingo on May 08, 2007, 10:09:00 AM
Quote from: sperlsco on May 08, 2007, 09:31:55 AM
I also whole-heartedly agree with your accolades for the Eschenbach M5.  I live in Houston but am ashamed that I missed out on the Eschenbach years (although we are very fortunate to have Hans Graf these days).  His M6 with Philly is a big favorite of mine. 

The chamber movement on that CD is great too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:04:21 PM
Quote from: sperlsco on May 08, 2007, 09:31:55 AM
It's interesting reading all of Sarge's comments....I prefer these all be played more swiftly...M4-4

I'm old...old farts like to take things slow. ;D

Seriously, I urge anyone who loves the Fourth (even those who want to get the Finale over with as quickly as possible  ;) ) to hear Maazel and Battle and Vienna. I don't believe there is a slower finale but it seems to me just perfect: heaven is about eternity; there's no need to rush. :)

I'll never understand why this isn't at the top of everyone's list, but anyway...I was checking Gramophone today because I was considering buying Haitink's Berlin Fifth (with that extremely slow Adagietto). It comes coupled with his Berlin Fourth. Here's what the reviewer said comparing it to Maazel:

"Unfortunately, there is little of that indefinable quality of radiance which has made Lorin Maazel's second recording such a firm favourite. Even more than Haitink, Maazel will have 'intellectualized' his interpretative options. The results are very different. Dawdling over phrase-ends and daringly slow, he is helped by Kathleen Battle's detailed characterization to project a lighter, more genuinely childlike vision, especially moving in the closing stages where the limpid playing of the VPO really comes into its own."

This movement, played and sung this way, is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. It just might convince you, Scott, that slower sometimes is better...or not  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PaulR on May 08, 2007, 03:14:06 PM
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask.

But next semester, I am playing Mahler 4 in school, so I was wondering what good recordings of it I should look for.  Thanks :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:16:20 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 08, 2007, 08:33:58 AM
Frankly, I don't think overall tempo matters much. If you compare the three major Mahler disciples who performed his music in his presence or under his tutelage - i.e. Mengelberg, Walter, Klemperer - you realize that even among these firsthand witnesses there is no consensus at all. They differ so widely in their approach to the music that you can't really speak of a single "correct" approach that Mahler would have "approved" of.

During Mahler's lifetime the tempos were pretty consistent (performances were rare anyway). The big changes came after Mahler's death, with each disciple writing his own gospel, so to speak. But you're right, O: it doesn't matter and this takes me back to my earlier post when I said Mahler had been wrong about his tempos. Of course he wasn't literally wrong but music depends on individual interpretation and tempos are never going to be agreed on. (Most conductors ignore Beethoven's tempo indications; they must think he was wrong!). I think the music has slowed down because it sounds better that way. That's the way I prefer to hear it anyway (generally speaking; there are exceptions).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:19:20 PM
Quote from: Ring_of_fire on May 08, 2007, 03:14:06 PM
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask.

But next semester, I am playing Mahler 4 in school, so I was wondering what good recordings of it I should look for.  Thanks :)

Szell and Maazel are both in the top tier and both are budget priced. I prefer Maazel because I'm in love with Kathleen Battle's voice...and because Maazel gives her all the room she needs.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 08, 2007, 03:31:35 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:16:20 PM
During Mahler's lifetime the tempos were pretty consistent (performances were rare anyway).

Says who?

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:16:20 PM
(Most conductors ignore Beethoven's tempo indications; they must think he was wrong!). I think the music has slowed down because it sounds better that way. That's the way I prefer to hear it anyway (generally speaking; there are exceptions).

What is appropriate with any given band in any given acoustic is relative. I welcome the variety. I am reminded of the Boulez quote that I posted in the old forum before. When asked why he often ignores some of the markings in his own scores when performing his own works, Boulez replied "When I compose, I cook with water. When I conduct, I cook with fire!" I doubt Beethoven himself took all of his metronome markings literally when he performed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:34:57 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 08, 2007, 03:31:35 PM
Says who?

La Grange in his book Gustav Mahler

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:46:49 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 08, 2007, 03:31:35 PM
What is appropriate with any given band in any given acoustic is relative.

That's one consideration but it doesn't explain why one conductor's Adagietto is 7 minutes long and another's 15.

Quote
I welcome the variety.

So do I. It would be a very dull world if everyone played the music the same way. But we are often asked to state our ultimate preferences...and we all do have preferences. We all know what recordings we'd take to the desert island. Few of us would say, it does't matter, give me any old recording. Tempo is often a crucial factor...well, for me it is anyway.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 09, 2007, 08:21:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:34:57 PM
La Grange in his book Gustav Mahler

And what's his source?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2007, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 05, 2007, 01:22:40 PM
I'm not ignoring you, Marc. I'm still digesting your post and will reply eventually.

Sarge

Sarge, no problem at all. Take your time.
(Actually, when I myself read my posting again, I must admit that it looks like some kind of a heavy 'outburst'. But, while talking about Mahler and his music, I permit myself to do that once in a while. ;))
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: from the new world on May 09, 2007, 11:32:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:46:49 PM
That's one consideration but it doesn't explain why one conductor's Adagietto is 7 minutes long and another's 15.

Though one thing to mention is that the nearly 17 minute adagietto played by Cobra, is deliberately played at half the intended tempo, so is actually equivalent to 8.5 min. This explains why he takes over 2 hours to do a Schubert 9th, and 80 minutes for Beethoven's 7th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve on May 09, 2007, 11:41:30 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 05, 2007, 08:51:10 AM
That is all very lovely but where to find the bloody thing. I've been wanting to hear it for years and never could track down a copy.

Mine, was in the form of a gift. I will find out where he obtained it.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 03:25:21 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 09, 2007, 08:21:08 AM
And what's his source?

Various: timings annotated in the conductors' scores are one source; reviews of the concerts; anecdotes written by people who were in the audience and noted the times.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 04:35:49 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 05, 2007, 03:34:50 AM
Wasn't this maybe the case with Mahler and Alma? Was he able to love her in the 'average' way? Didn't he want to love her in his 'own way'? Was this to be said in the 'Adagietto', like a kind of very personal love song?
Mahler and Mengelberg became close friends when Mahler visited the Netherlands. Maybe he discussed his feelings for Alma with Mengelberg and others? Like he did with Freud, in Leiden?

Sure. As I said before, why would Mengelberg make up the story? It's even possible Mahler told the conductor but didn't tell Alma what the music really meant...which would explain her silence on the subject. Now, whether the average person is still going to hear it as a "love song," even if Mahler meant that, I still doubt. Of course I consider myself the average person in this context  ;D

Quote
Für dich leben! Für dich sterben .... Almschi!

Tenth symphony: a love song??

Well, those final pages contain some of the most intensely emotional music ever written and surely express his feelings for Alma but yeah...what were those feelings? Love certainly, and a willingness to sacrifice himself, if only metaphorically...but I hear doubt too, and incredible pain.

Quote
How many of us are able to really feel this way for another human being?
Alma was much younger than Mahler; somehow I get the feeling that their interpretations of 'real love' were not the same. So she tried her 'luck' with others, like Gropius. Maybe Mahler could foresee this in an earlier stage? Maybe he was already amazed by the fact that this 'most wanted woman in Vienna and widely spread neighbourhood' fell in love with him. Could he really believe it?

This is the part of your post that gave me the most pause. It really hit home. I took it personally. In high school I fell in love with a girl everyone thought was way out of my league. I was a bit amazed too she fell for me and I often felt insecure...and jealous. She inspired a lot of poetry. When she left me suddenly and never talked to me again--literally never spoke to me again--I was devastated and it "ruined" my life. I quit university and joined the army in a grand "romantic" gesture. I continued to write poetry, the Jean Poems, over the next three decades. To me they are all love poems. In 1996 I contacted her when her mother died; we exchanged letters. She apologized for the way she'd treated me and admitted her life hadn't turned out well. I sent her a few of the poems, asking her if she'd like to read the entire cycle. I never heard from her again ;D

Attempting to read them objectively, I could see that my obsession with her might not be attractive, might not even be considered "love" to the average person. My poetry isn't the roses are red, violets are blue kind that people think of when thinking love poetry but are closer to the Rückertlieder and Winterreise in tone and mood.

JEAN FORTY-FIVE/SONNET TWENTY

You are my text, my reason to write. Not
a day has died since sixty-six, the Fall,
when you haven't appeared, disrupting thought
and dashing expectations like the "wrong"
notes in a sixteenth century madrigal
by Gesualdo that startle but enthrall
and weave us moody into dissonant
textures. You clash with my life; like a gong,
shatter my peaceful consonance in the light
of 9 p.m., walking down hillside vines;
the clashing note I use to fashion lines,
a song, as evening darkens into night,
broods into West where, still, a pale light shines,
where my text doth lie, my reason to write.



So, yeah, I understand what you mean when you say Mahler's idea of love wouldn't necessarily be Alma's. Your post made me think. Thank you.

Sarge


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2007, 04:57:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 04:35:49 AM
Well, those final pages contain some of the most intensely emotional music ever written and surely express his feelings for Alma but yeah...what were those feelings? Love certainly, and a willingness to sacrifice himself, if only metaphorically...but I hear doubt too, and incredible pain.

What were those feelings, indeed!  That is part of music's seductive powers . . . it feels so genuine, so immediate, yet it is at the last impossible to map specific emotive content onto the music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 04:59:41 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 10, 2007, 04:57:21 AM
What were those feelings, indeed!  That is part of music's seductive powers . . . it feels so genuine, so immediate, yet it is at the last impossible to map specific emotive content onto the music.

Your real name is Karl Hanslick, isn't it  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PaulR on May 10, 2007, 06:34:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2007, 03:19:20 PM
Szell and Maazel are both in the top tier and both are budget priced. I prefer Maazel because I'm in love with Kathleen Battle's voice...and because Maazel gives her all the room she needs.

Sarge
Thank you!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: uffeviking on May 10, 2007, 09:15:03 AM
My latest additions to my Mahler collection are three DVDs from Philips, Symphonies No. 1 & 2, next DVD No. 3 and the third Nos. 4 & 7, all conducted by Bernard Haitink and played by the Berliner Philharmoniker. All performances are from the early nineties.

So far I only watched No. 1 and really like it. Surprised by Haitink's visible involvement and lively actions, to the extent of allowing himself one leap of at least 3 inches off the podium. Only Lenny did not; unexpected from the usually cool Dutchman.

The orchestra is of course at it's best; they show how much they like playing this music guided and encouraged by the Maestro. The strings swing in the air of the huge Philharmonie, filled to the last seat. Both the woodwinds and the horns raise up their instruments to let us hear to the fullest the glorious sounds.

I am looking foreward to watch the next four symphonies and then I hope Philips will release all of them. Maybe they already did, but I have not found the source for them yet. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 10, 2007, 10:58:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 10, 2007, 04:57:21 AM
What were those feelings, indeed!  That is part of music's seductive powers . . . it feels so genuine, so immediate, yet it is at the last impossible to map specific emotive content onto the music.

This, I think, is true. Our discussion about the Adagietto and the Rückert-song is another prove of that.

Sarge, about your reaction to my contributions, I couldn't decide whether I should place it on the forum or send you a PM. Because it belongs to the above-mentioned discussion, I finally thought it better to place it here:

I felt a bit insecure while reading your post. It was very emotional, very personal. I hope I didn't disturb you.

I tried to say something about love, and the meaning of love, in general, with Mahler's music somewhere floating in the background. Of course everyone has got their own experiences with feelings of love. Of course I do have them, too.

I know there are people who feel ruined when their overwhelming feelings of love aren't returned in a more or less satisfying way. I also think (know?) there are people who feel enrichened with whatever experience of love they feel or endure. They are somehow able to sublimate their feelings of grief into feelings of .... some sort of comfort and even happiness. (For example: happy just to give love without the taking.)
Of course Mahler suffered, and he must have suffered from the fact that Alma didn't return his love for her the way he wanted, or had hoped for. He kept on loving her any way. In his own way, in his own heaven .... maybe. (I admit I'm guessing, I'm not a graduated shrink ;). Or I'm just forcing myself to conclude something that 'proves' my hypothesis about the Rückert-song. [;) again].)

Maybe that's what some parts of his musical heritage is all about. His own picture of an idyllic alpine meadow, with a loving untouchable woman sitting in the grass. Withdrawn from the real world, and loving this 'Belle Dame sans Merci' in his own created world, his own idea of heaven. Maybe that's what I wanted to say in my posts.

Well, just another stream of thoughts. I'd like to add that I understand what you talked about in your reaction. Maybe this was your own 'Mahlerite' experience of love, or something that looked like that. Love is .... lovely, but in some cases it's also a lot of pain.
Thanks for your very personal contribution. It takes some courage to do that.


Regards,

Marc.


BTW: I had some problems to decide to write this in a PM or at the forum, mainly because of your personal associations, caused by my contributions. It's not my 'average' way to connect music this close to human emotions and feelings, and share that with 'every one' on a forum. I didn't think of the possible consequenses. Before you know it, this forum is about very personal subjects, and then there's always the risk of hurting someone (even when one didn't mean to). Although I really feel there is 'something' going on when listening to music. Mahler's music sometimes is a rather intruding example of that (not always, it really depends on my own state of mind). But of course, Karl 'Hanslick' Henning is right: what specific emotions are we talking about, when listening to - for instance - Schubert's string quintet or a Mahler song? I guess it can be almost anything, even when - as we proved - (poetic) lyrics are added. So many times, even though music can unite us all, we are, with our feelings, while listening and enjoying, .... allein in unserm Lied.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 10, 2007, 11:18:42 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 10, 2007, 10:58:39 AM
But of course, Karl 'Hanslick' Henning is right: what specific emotions are we talking about, when listening to - for instance - Schubert's string quintet or a Mahler song? I guess it can be almost anything, even when - as we proved - (poetic) lyrics are added.

Which brings me to another point. What is far more important than the emotions conveyed at one given point or another of the piece, is the emotional progression or development of the interpretation. By analogy, you can plausibly interpret the role of Hamlet in the play in many different ways. You can make him an introvert or an extrovert, etc. But most important is that the character development is logical and plausible such that the audience will follow you. He can't already be stark raving mad in Act I. It's the same with music. Any given movement cannot be emotionally flat and constant from beginning to end. It has to have a development. Whether you see the Adagietto as a confession of deep love or as an estrangement from the world, either way is fine. But you have to plausibly convey that to the audience. And that depends on how you get from A to B, how you transition between the different elements of the movement, how you build toward the climax and how you let it dissolve thereafter. If this is plausible and convincing, you will have the audience eatnig out of your hand. That's why these comparisons of timings are of little help in assessing the qualities of a given interpretation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 01:47:44 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 10, 2007, 11:18:42 AMThat's why these comparisons of timings are of little help in assessing the qualities of a given interpretation.

Since a conductor has to choose a tempo I assume he has reasons; and one of those reasons must be because it fits his interpretive goals. Tempo isn't the only thing that matters, of course, but it's primary, I think. Lenny wouldn't have gotten the same profound sense of grief and desolation had he chosen to play a seven minute Adagietto at JFK's funeral.

I think a discussion of tempo is vitally important when discussing performances and what they mean to us.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 10, 2007, 10:58:39 AM

I felt a bit insecure while reading your post. It was very emotional, very personal. I hope I didn't disturb you.

No, not at all...my feelings are like old friends; I know them intimately. I just hadn't thought about some things in a very long time but I appreciated the opportunity you gave me to delve into my past again. I just hope I didn't disturb you! Poets are natural exhibitionists, you know, and we can cause embarrassment and/or giggles just like a streaker dashing through a crowd ;D  My favorite poet, John Berryman, used to say a poet couldn't be afraid to make a fool of himself in print. I've taken that to heart  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 10, 2007, 02:07:27 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 01:47:44 PM
I think a discussion of tempo is vitally important when discussing performances and what they mean to us.

Sure, but only if one discusses tempo in relation to the rest of the interpretation. There are 9-minute Adagiettos that seem interminable and 12-minute Adagiettos that one wishes would go on forever. In and of itself, tempo alone is not a very informative variable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Don on May 10, 2007, 02:27:21 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 10, 2007, 02:07:27 PM
Sure, but only if one discusses tempo in relation to the rest of the interpretation. There are 9-minute Adagiettos that seem interminable and 12-minute Adagiettos that one wishes would go on forever. In and of itself, tempo alone is not a very informative variable.

I agree.  Tempo is one of the important variables, but more important is what the conductor/performer does with it.  For example, Gardiner tends to use quick tempos in his Bach Cantata recordings, giving the music a more celebratory element than one of reverence.  McCreesh also uses quick tempos, often giving off a rushed, not celebratory nature.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 02:58:53 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 10, 2007, 02:07:27 PM
Sure, but only if one discusses tempo in relation to the rest of the interpretation. There are 9-minute Adagiettos that seem interminable and 12-minute Adagiettos that one wishes would go on forever. In and of itself, tempo alone is not a very informative variable.

Of course not, but we're laying the foundation here: seeing what the range of tempi is first so we can then begin to compare what the conductors do with their chosen speeds. My theory, born out by listening to a dozen and more versions, is that a slower speed has a profound affect on the mood the Adagietto projects. Rushed through at seven or eight minutes, no matter what else the conductor does, isn't going to give you that same mood. If you can provide an example of a speed demon conductor who makes a dirge out of the movement at that speed, I'd like to hear it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 03:02:33 PM
Quote from: Don on May 10, 2007, 02:27:21 PM
Tempo is one of the important variables

Quote from: O Mensch on May 10, 2007, 02:07:27 PM
In and of itself, tempo alone is not a very informative variable.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2007, 01:47:44 PM
Tempo isn't the only thing that matters, of course

Good, we're all in complete agreement  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: uffeviking on May 10, 2007, 03:17:16 PM
Watched Mahler's Symphony No. 2 this afternoon and it's as excellent as No. 1. Sylvia McNair and Jard van Nes are the soloists and the Ernst-Senff-Choir's massed voices putting a glorious finishing touch to this work.

Bernard Haitink and the Berliner Philharmoniker are again a superb team and it is amazing how the musicians respond to the conducting with an exactness not often achieved. When Haitink calls for the end, there is not one note to be heard, not a fraction of a note as so often happens with other orchestras, some flute or horn trailing a tiny bit. Not in this performance, everything is perfect.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 13, 2007, 10:21:11 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 10, 2007, 09:15:03 AM
I am looking foreward to watch the next four symphonies and then I hope Philips will release all of them. Maybe they already did, but I have not found the source for them yet. 

AFAIK, on DVD, this is all, Haitink doing Mahler 'live' in Berlin. Both the live videos and the studio CD's were stopped by Philips before Haitink could finish his second (third, if you include the live videos) complete cycle. Can't remember why. Maybe they thought: there are already too much Mahler cycles, and maybe the sales figures were too low.
To me personally: a pity; because I was very curious about Haitink's Berliner Ninth. But it turned out to be The Ninth that never was. :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: uffeviking on May 13, 2007, 01:19:50 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 13, 2007, 10:21:11 AM
AFAIK, on DVD, this is all, Haitink doing Mahler 'live' in Berlin. Both the live videos and the studio CD's were stopped by Philips before Haitink could finish his second (third, if you include the live videos) complete cycle. Can't remember why. Maybe they thought: there are already too much Mahler cycles, and maybe the sales figures were too low.
To me personally: a pity; because I was very curious about Haitink's Berliner Ninth. But it turned out to be The Ninth that never was. :'(

Thank you for that bit of sad news! There can never be enough of any Mahler recordings, whether on CD or DVD. Not that many videos available anyhow!  :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve on May 13, 2007, 05:16:03 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 13, 2007, 01:19:50 PM
Thank you for that bit of sad news! There can never be enough of any Mahler recordings, whether on CD or DVD. Not that many videos available anyhow!  :'(

I share your opinion. Personally, I would love to seem some CSO Live Mahler recordings from the old days.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 16, 2007, 06:47:57 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 13, 2007, 05:16:03 PM
I share your opinion. Personally, I would love to seem some CSO Live Mahler recordings from the old days.  ;D

Well, there is at least a Martinon Mahler 3 available on a Collector's Edition 10CD set from the Symphony Store, which I am told is fantastic. I think there may be an 8 with the same forces as well on another such Centennial Edition or something. I haven't heard either one though. Barenboim's Mahler 5 is also live, though not from the "old days", recorded live on tour in the Cologne Philharmonie in 1997 and is available both on CD and DVD. One of my top three choices for the 5th. As of a few days ago there is now the wonderful CSO live Mahler 3 CD with Haitink as well, recorded last October.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on May 16, 2007, 06:57:08 AM
Does anyone know of any great books on Gustav Mahler, his life and music, please?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2007, 07:13:22 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 16, 2007, 06:57:08 AM
Does anyone know of any great books on Gustav Mahler, his life and music, please?

Gustav Mahler by Henry-Louis de La Grange is in a class of its own. Four volumes, 4000 pages long. The final volume and the revised first volume are still waiting the English translation.

Edit: just checked Amazon. The first two volumes can be had for a good price. The third volume is still very expensive.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on May 16, 2007, 07:17:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2007, 07:13:22 AM
Gustav Mahler by Henry-Louis de La Grange is in a class of its own. Four volumes, 4000 pages long. The final volume and the revised first volume are still waiting the English translation.

Sarge



His relationship with his wife and family interests me, though I'd definitely have to say that Mahler's music as a general rule is far more fascinating.

A fantastic composer, one of my favorites.

I'm interested in this release, has it already come up yet?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2007, 07:27:48 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 16, 2007, 07:17:45 AM


His relationship with his wife and family interests me, though I'd definitely have to say that Mahler's music as a general rule is far more fascinating.

The book is virtually a day by day account of his life but his music is given a thorough analysis too.

Quote
A fantastic composer, one of my favorites.

I'm interested in this release, has it already come up yet?

If you mean on this thread, no I don't believe so but it has been discussed quite a bit on the old forum. I like it very much. The Scherzo is incredible, very slow as it should be, I think. For those who prefer a swift Adagietto, Barshai could be your man. For me the major disappointment is his handling of the chorale theme in the second and fifth movements. I want a conductor to really pull in the reins here, stretch it out as long as possible. Barshai rushes through it, missing much of the grandeur. Conductors I prefer on that account: Barenboim, Karajan, Barbirolli, and Neumann/Leipzig.

The Tenth is interesting as an alternative to the Cooke editions.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2007, 07:31:43 AM
"Reconstruction" doesn't seem quite the right word, does it?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2007, 07:33:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 16, 2007, 07:31:43 AM
"Reconstruction" doesn't seem quite the right word, does it?

No, not at all. "Performing Edition" makes more sense.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 16, 2007, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2007, 07:27:48 AM
The Tenth is interesting as an alternative to the Cooke editions.

I actually prefer Barshai's version.

As to books, this is very readable:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TF44VJB9L._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on May 16, 2007, 09:01:46 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 16, 2007, 09:00:17 AM
I actually prefer Barshai's version.

As to books, this is very readable:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TF44VJB9L._AA240_.jpg)





I'll probably end up getting both, though my HvK rendition is very much adored.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: uffeviking on May 16, 2007, 09:09:25 AM
Two very usefull books for any lover of Mahler's music - bypassing the usual tabloid-style reports on his married life - :
Constantin Floros: Gustav Mahler. The Symphonies.
And Theodor W. Adorno: Mahler. A musical Physiognomy. Not easy reading, the Adorno book, but it provides lots of food for thought.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on May 16, 2007, 09:19:22 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 16, 2007, 09:09:25 AM
Two very usefull books for any lover of Mahler's music - bypassing the usual tabloid-style reports on his married life - :
Constantin Floros: Gustav Mahler. The Symphonies.
And Theodor W. Adorno: Mahler. A musical Physiognomy. Not easy reading, the Adorno book, but it provides lots of food for thought.



Thank you!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 16, 2007, 09:20:13 AM
Awhile back a friend gave me a copy of Gilbert Kaplan's The Mahler Album, which I enjoyed very much.  It is filled with illustrations and photos, and very handsomely produced.  I think it sells new for around $75 but you could probably find a copy for less.

--Bruce

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0810942798.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BachQ on May 16, 2007, 04:01:37 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2007, 07:13:22 AM
Four volumes, 4000 pages long.

I understand that the audio version of this is a hot seller . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 17, 2007, 03:05:17 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 16, 2007, 04:01:37 PM
I understand that the audio version of this is a hot seller . . . . . . .

Yes, especially the abridged edition with a space-saving box containing only 100 cassettes.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on May 17, 2007, 05:17:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 17, 2007, 03:05:17 AM
Yes, especially the abridged edition with a space-saving box containing only 100 cassettes.

Sarge





Bah! I made a lovely coffee table out of the original set of 500 (not including the little known 100 micro-cassette recorded bibliography!)


Yeah-hooooo, dude!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on May 31, 2007, 10:35:44 PM
Gustav needs a thread !!

I'm currently studying him: Collecting tons of different recordings, borrowing biographies and analysis from the library, and soon I'm going to see him live. Lets talk about this man!  ;D

1. What do you think about Mahler's symphonic language and orchestration?

2. Do you think he is one of the greatest symphonists of all time?

3. What's your favorite work by him?

4. Have you been emotionally, spiritually, or even physically overwhelmed by the power of his works?


For me...

1. Incredibly versatile, wide dynamic ranges, huge variety of colors and moods, rock solid, heart touching...mind blowing...everything.

2. Yes, up there with Beethoven and Mozart

3. Resurrection symphony for now, need to hear more

4. Yes, every time I listen to his music
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on June 01, 2007, 04:32:04 AM
I see you're falling under Mahler's spell Bonehelm! Here is the thread you're looking for, you could repost this there:

Mahler Mania, Rebooted (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.0.html)

It would've been named Mahler Mania, but that thread turned into a debate about how complex Mahler is, and a million other things, so I renamed it The Great Everything Mahler Debate.

It's so cool to see the enthusiastic people here starting on the Mahler journey recently! I'm still but a wayfarer myself...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on June 01, 2007, 04:58:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2007, 03:55:30 AM
Almschi Acres . . . .




It's the place to be...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mahlertitan on June 01, 2007, 05:54:14 AM

1. What do you think about Mahler's symphonic language and orchestration?

colorful, unique, profoundly moving, fantastic, etc...

2. Do you think he is one of the greatest symphonists of all time?

yes

3. What's your favorite work by him?

The Titan symphony of course

4. Have you been emotionally, spiritually, or even physically overwhelmed by the power of his works?

yes, of course.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2007, 05:58:07 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 31, 2007, 10:35:44 PM
Gustav needs a thread !!

You didn't like this one? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.0.html)  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on June 01, 2007, 07:09:15 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 01, 2007, 05:54:14 AM
1. What do you think about Mahler's symphonic language and orchestration?

colorful, unique, profoundly moving, fantastic, etc...



MT said it, and very well. I might add the phrase "requiring the listener's attention like few other works of music, but ultimately providing the same kind of aesthetic and entertainment payback that any great novel does"

Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 01, 2007, 05:54:14 AM

2. Do you think he is one of the greatest symphonists of all time?

yes



Again, MT has it. I won't be too popular for this opinion, but I find several movements in Mahler's Symphonies and Song Cycles which involve, impress, and effect me far more profoundly than the Symphonic works of Beethoven...or even Mozart.


3. What's your favorite work by him?

Symphonies 3, 4, 6, and 9, und Das Lied Von Der Erde



4. Have you been emotionally, spiritually, or even physically overwhelmed by the power of his works?

Abso-rootin-tootely-utely. The 3rd, 9th, and DLVDE in particular. Remarkable achievements.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 01, 2007, 01:10:58 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 01, 2007, 05:58:07 AM
You didn't like this one? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.0.html)  8)

Sorry Karl, didn't see this thread since it was on the 4th page.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2007, 03:32:19 PM
1. What do you think about Mahler's symphonic language and orchestration?

MT said it: unique. And I'll add, instantly recognizable. I'm astounded by Mahler's Titan: where did it come from? Like the Symphonie fantastique, it seems to have been self-generated, sprung to life fully formed with not a single classical precedent (lots of folk and pop music precedents though). No wonder it puzzled, disturbed, even infuriated the first listeners.

I love Mahler's orchestration, particularly his use of low brass, piercing woodwind, and percussion. His symphonies are fun to watch: the Third employs a full battery of percussion and needs seven players minimum. But it's the subtle percussive effects that are most intriguing: the soft swoosh of the cymbals in the Nachtmusik of the Seventh, for example. Even the non-percussive instruments sometimes play percussively: Mahler asks the violin section to wack the body of their instruments with their bows in the buildup to the climax of the Second Symphony's first movement development (just before the recapitulation). It's a really frightening sound that increases the tension greatly. (Unfortunately, in too many recordings, that effect is barely audible: listen to Kaplan/Vienna to hear how it should sound.)

Another thing I love about Mahler's sound is the Klezmer influence. I was listening to Kindertotenlieder the other day and again heard the wailing Klezmer clarinet. Striking sound, and wonderful, and immeasurably sad.


2. Do you think he is one of the greatest symphonists of all time?

Without a doubt.


3. What's your favorite work by him?

Just one??? Okay, the Sixth..but there's not a single work of his I don't love, including that wonderful piano quartet movement, written when he was a student.

4. Have you been emotionally, spiritually, or even physically overwhelmed by the power of his works?


Emotionally, oh yes. The bastard always gets to me. ;D  Physically, yeah, definitely...so much so that I have to be careful nowadays. I have a chronic medical condition and I can't let myself get too carried away.

Spiritually? I don't know...I don't know what that means really. When I break down my feelings and response to the music, I end up with a lot of emotional and intellectual terms. The same thing happens during a church service. I can't really say I've had a spiritual moment.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 01, 2007, 07:31:21 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2007, 03:32:19 PM
1. What do you think about Mahler's symphonic language and orchestration?

MT said it: unique. And I'll add, instantly recognizable. I'm astounded by Mahler's Titan: where did it come from? Like the Symphonie fantastique, it seems to have been self-generated, sprung to life fully formed with not a single classical precedent (lots of folk and pop music precedents though). No wonder it puzzled, disturbed, even infuriated the first listeners.

I love Mahler's orchestration, particularly his use of low brass, piercing woodwind, and percussion. His symphonies are fun to watch: the Third employs a full battery of percussion and needs seven players minimum. But it's the subtle percussive effects that are most intriguing: the soft swoosh of the cymbals in the Nachtmusik of the Seventh, for example. Even the non-percussive instruments sometimes play percussively: Mahler asks the violin section to wack the body of their instruments with their bows in the buildup to the climax of the Second Symphony's first movement development (just before the recapitulation). It's a really frightening sound that increases the tension greatly. (Unfortunately, in too many recordings, that effect is barely audible: listen to Kaplan/Vienna to hear how it should sound.)

Another thing I love about Mahler's sound is the Klezmer influence. I was listening to Kindertotenlieder the other day and again heard the wailing Klezmer clarinet. Striking sound, and wonderful, and immeasurably sad.


2. Do you think he is one of the greatest symphonists of all time?

Without a doubt.


3. What's your favorite work by him?

Just one??? Okay, the Sixth..but there's not a single work of his I don't love, including that wonderful piano quartet movement, written when he was a student.

4. Have you been emotionally, spiritually, or even physically overwhelmed by the power of his works?


Emotionally, oh yes. The bastard always gets to me. ;D  Physically, yeah, definitely...so much so that I have to be careful nowadays. I have a chronic medical condition and I can't let myself get too carried away.

Spiritually? I don't know...I don't know what that means really. When I break down my feelings and response to the music, I end up with a lot of emotional and intellectual terms. The same thing happens during a church service. I can't really say I've had a spiritual moment.

Sarge

Thanks for the detailed input Sarge, and spiritually is like...well me for example, first time hearing his 2nd symphony almost converted me to Christianity...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on June 02, 2007, 08:40:09 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 01, 2007, 07:31:21 PM
Thanks for the detailed input Sarge, and spiritually is like...well me for example, first time hearing his 2nd symphony almost converted me to Christianity...





Mahler's 3rd and 9th affirmed my own faith.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on June 03, 2007, 11:01:02 PM
I just got a laugh! I got Karajan's live 9th on DG and looked at the track titles, and it actually says for some sections "Horns", "Brass", "Clarinets"...I guess because those smaller sections don't have specific tempo names. How funny! Those are about as good as I do for the signposts in my head when I'm listening myself. :D 

Wow, the 9th is absolutely transcendent. And it's really forward looking to the modern era, isn't it? Is this the one Schoenberg admired the most? I can definitely see why.

The 1st mvmt. shares some things in common with the 4th's Adagio and a little with the 5th's Adagietto, but also is interspersed with moments of sweeping chaos where he dances at the very edge of tonality. That thick mesh of polytonal writing where all the lines are moving at once, after the first big cries (Allegro risoluto), and those spooky brass clusters following. Incredible. This REALLY makes me wonder what he would've written if he'd not died young. I feel like studying this score is a black hole you could fall into. Such extremely complex and sophisticated writing!

I had to come back to edit this to say, it's really so affecting the way it vacillates between hope and despair, with pure bewilderment thrown in between. Almost painful at times. More than in any I feel here he's stuck in the nebulous place between two worlds, looking fondly back, despairing at going, and contemplating the beyond he's going to with this awed wonder and breathless confused mystery, (in the Wie von anfang and Lento!) I keep coming back in this mvmt. to those themes in his 4th and 5th Adagios, then he was gazing up at Heaven, but now it's this alternately scary, breathtaking beautiful reality. And when you consider the links between "I Am Lost to the World" and the 5th Adagietto, and the way he twists and distorts that theme in the middle of the Wie von anfang. I feel he's journeying down the tunnel towards the light, torn and unsure, and finally he comes to terms with it in the final minutes, the angels take him by the hand and say, "It's okay." The flute and violin solos...the angels' comforting voices...

And this is just the first movement!  :o I listened to this symphony only once before and it was just overwhelming, I knew I needed time, a lot of time, to come back to it, and finally here I am.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on June 04, 2007, 05:49:24 AM
Quote from: Greta on June 03, 2007, 11:01:02 PM
I just got a laugh! I got Karajan's live 9th on DG and looked at the track titles, and it actually says for some sections "Horns", "Brass", "Clarinets"...I guess because those smaller sections don't have specific tempo names. How funny! Those are about as good as I do for the signposts in my head when I'm listening myself. :D 

Wow, the 9th is absolutely transcendent. And it's really forward looking to the modern era, isn't it? Is this the one Schoenberg admired the most? I can definitely see why.



You got an excellent recording. Just wait until the 3rd movement supa-dupa-fuga and the incomparable 4th movement hit you! JA! Great stuff!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 12:32:24 PM
I'm planning on buying one more M8 on top of my Kubelik and Bertini set, because I'm that addicted to symphony of a thousand.

Here is what I want in my M8:

1. Earth-shattering power  8)
2. Intense, overwhelming endings in both movements
3. Strong organ sound
4. Clear, crisp details
5. Efficient use of rubato, with lots of emotion

That's about it. Let the game begin.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 16, 2007, 01:07:28 PM
Well, my favorite is with Chailly, but with several caveats: the CD was made from live recordings, but Jane Eaglen's voice was added later.  Also, Chailly is a bit slower in this piece, as he is in some of his other Mahler symphonies.  To me it works beautifully, increasing the weight and grandeur, but those who like faster versions (say, Solti's) probably won't go for this one. 

So that said, this recording is quite amazing, both in performance and sound quality.  (I just got some splendid new Sennheiser headphones and can't wait to test this recording on them.)  I especially like the organ in the Concertgebouw, a grand old instrument with a huge sound -- no mistaking the entrances of this!  The soloists, choruses and orchestra are all excellent, and Chailly has an opera lover's sense of pacing and drama.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41R6P5230KL._AA240_.jpg)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bunny on June 16, 2007, 01:19:54 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 12:32:24 PM
I'm planning on buying one more M8 on top of my Kubelik and Bertini set, because I'm that addicted to symphony of a thousand.

Here is what I want in my M8:

1. Earth-shattering power  8)
2. Intense, overwhelming endings in both movements
3. Strong organ sound
4. Clear, crisp details
5. Efficient use of rubato, with lots of emotion

That's about it. Let the game begin.  ;)

Solti
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 01:32:29 PM
Thanks for the recommendations from both of you.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 16, 2007, 01:45:47 PM
I like Neeme Järvi's live Stockholm account. It's of the slam-bang persuasion, in superb, rock-solid  sound. IMO it fills all your requirements.
You can buy the download at eclassical for just 2.98$ :D

Better soloists can be heard on the Solti version, which is pretty much in the same mould. Tension sags a bit in part 2 ,though.

Watch out for the new DG by Boulez: it should kill most competitors (to judge from an earlier BBC release).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 16, 2007, 01:54:29 PM
Solti for me also. Beautifully recorded and sung, with the CSO in it's peak form.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 02:00:33 PM
Would you guys be kind enough to tell me which Solti in particular? I just want to make sure I get the right set. Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 16, 2007, 02:06:52 PM
There's only one. It's on Decca but you may find it under various guises. It's been reissued a few times.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 02:08:59 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 16, 2007, 02:06:52 PM
There's only one. It's on Decca but you may find it under various guises. It's been reissued a few times.

Thanks. I think you mean this:

(http://www8.plala.or.jp/bone_trom/my_music/mahler_club/soltiMahler.gif) for the complete box and

(http://www.me.ucr.edu/~xli0/cd/SolMah8.jpg) for the 8th. Right?  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2007, 02:10:14 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 02:00:33 PM
Would you guys be kind enough to tell me which Solti in particular? I just want to make sure I get the right set. Thanks  :)

This one (http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-John-Shirley-Quirk/dp/B000E6EGYQ/ref=sr_1_4/105-7245042-3406051?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1182031451&sr=1-4)

I'm with Bruce. Chailly is my current favorite and would make an interesting interpretive contrast to the two you own now.

I heard Boulez conduct it live in Berlin a few months ago. His recording is definitely on my wishlist.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: stingo on June 16, 2007, 02:54:15 PM
As much as I respect Bruce's and Sarge's opinions on matters musical, I just cannot get into Chailly's M8. As I've beaten a dead horse before, it sounds like a chamber version of the 8th symphony to me. I will have to give it another try to hear what the others were hearing. That said, I think Tennstedt's is a more profound reading, Solti's more ecstatic and Rattle's somewhere in between. I could easily listen to any of the three, but if forced to choose, I'd pick the Rattle but only by the smallest of margins.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papageno on June 16, 2007, 03:06:28 PM
Das Lied von der Erder - Otto Klemperer
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: Papageno on June 16, 2007, 03:06:28 PM
Das Lied von der Erder - Otto Klemperer

??? pretty off topic but ok, thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 16, 2007, 03:58:01 PM
Another vote for the Chailly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 16, 2007, 03:58:58 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2007, 02:10:14 PM
I heard Boulez conduct it live in Berlin a few months ago. His recording is definitely on my wishlist.

You can get a recording of the live broadcast off operashare.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papageno on June 16, 2007, 04:02:09 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 03:57:38 PM
??? pretty off topic but ok, thanks for the suggestion.

Ah, an 8th, I just noticed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on June 16, 2007, 04:42:40 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 16, 2007, 03:58:58 PM
You can get a recording of the live broadcast off operashare.

Or just around the corner, here

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1125.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1125.0.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Philoctetes on June 16, 2007, 04:45:46 PM
The Boulez Mahler 8th is getting released?!

That is freaking sweet.

Soon they might box them all together. That would be nice.
:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bunny on June 16, 2007, 04:52:04 PM
Quote from: stingo on June 16, 2007, 02:54:15 PM
As much as I respect Bruce's and Sarge's opinions on matters musical, I just cannot get into Chailly's M8. As I've beaten a dead horse before, it sounds like a chamber version of the 8th symphony to me. I will have to give it another try to hear what the others were hearing. That said, I think Tennstedt's is a more profound reading, Solti's more ecstatic and Rattle's somewhere in between. I could easily listen to any of the three, but if forced to choose, I'd pick the Rattle but only by the smallest of margins.

Chailly's Mahler 8th is excellent, but if someone wants an OTT version that's characterized by:
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 16, 2007, 12:32:24 PM

1. Earth-shattering power  8)
2. Intense, overwhelming endings in both movements
3. Strong organ sound
4. Clear, crisp details
5. Efficient use of rubato, with lots of emotion


then they aren't going to be satisfied with the Chailly, or even the Nagano.  Solti fits the bill for this set of attributes, although details might not be as clear as they would be with other recordings.  But, 4 out of 5 ain't bad.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: uffeviking on June 16, 2007, 05:17:28 PM
High time to call Mahler back into our memory and one of the current best interpreters of him is no doubt Piere Boulez.

I enjoyed the afternoon watching a new DVD available from EuroArts with Boulez conducting Mahler Symphony No. 2 with the Staatskapelle Berlin and Diana Damrau, soprano and Petra Lang, mezzo-soprano the soloists. It was on the occasion of the maestro's 80th birthday and all involved contributed their very best to the celebration.

If you want to see this huge assembly of musicians and singers following their outstanding conductor in a powerful performance, you will be rewarded when buying this DVD.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 16, 2007, 06:47:17 PM
What about Klaus Tennstedt's 1986 (LPO) recording? I find him a little less driven (manic, even) than Solti, but incredibly precise. There is also, in the same vein, Rafael Kubelik's 1970 (BRSO) record. Neither of them are as brash and flashy as Solti, but they are no less powerful in their own way. I'd say Tennstedt flirts with ecstasy, if you follow my meaning, more than either Kubelik or Solti. He has more of a chamber-like orchestral texture, but this isn't Wagner we're talking about here. Ultimately, I'd say that Tennstedt's has the power and the glory the OP seems to want, and a somewhat more analytical and cooler view than Solti.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2007, 03:03:48 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 16, 2007, 03:58:58 PM
You can get a recording of the live broadcast off operashare.

Already have it, O. Grabbed it when you first pointed it out. Thanks again.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Raisa on June 17, 2007, 05:00:46 AM
I can recommend this DVD. Just released: (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MMB8rezVL._SS500_.jpg)

Claudio Abbado conducting the Lucerne Festival Orchestra last year in Mahler's 6th. This was a huge experience!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 17, 2007, 05:48:47 AM
Another 8th I highly value is the Davis BRSO (RCA). Recording is very natural, not the hothouse variety (Solti). Excellent soloists and a truly orgasmic conclusion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Hi All,

I have been thinking of expanding my Mahler CDs with going more onto individual versions. I only have the Bertini cycle, good enough for all i know, with a couple of individual performances (in bold below). For my exercise, I have been going through soem of the information from this site and others (Tony Duggan, Classics today, Amazon reviews,..), books like All Music Guide, etc. I appreciate that opinions will of course vary on such and such recording and no recording is definitive in itself, but i aim at building myself a cycle with ideally as many conductors as possible, to sample the various approaches, but still sticking to recordings considered "essential" in each symphony/piece.   

I mostly listen to M2/M1/M5/M6 and i hope i can benefit of other versions for the remaining pieces, as the Bertini's doesn't really grab me so far for those latter.

again, in bold are the ones i already own, in italic, the ones i am considering already.... Does that seem to you like a good starting list please ?

Thanks

Olivier

-----------------

Mahler 1st symphony

Kubelik/DG/Bavaria orch
Solti/LSO/Decca (coupled with M2)
Zinman / Tonhalle
Maazel / VPO

   
Mahler 2nd symphony   

Solti/LSO/Decca (coupled with M1)
Klemperer / EMI / GROTC
   
Mahler 3rd symphony   

Horenstein/LSO/Unicorn
Bernstein/Sony/NYPO
   
Mahler 4th symphony   

Szell/Sony/Cleveland
Reiner/Chicago/SO
   
Mahler 5th symphony   

Tennstedt/EMI
Inoue/RPO
Barbirolli/Philarmonia/EMI
Bernstein/VPO/DG
   
Mahler 6th symphony (not sure on those...)   

Abbado / DG / BPO
Szell
Barbirolli
Boulez
Eiji Oue / Fontec
Mitropoulos
   
Mahler 7th symphony   

Horenstein / New Philarmonia
Rattle/CBSO/EMI
Bernstein/Sony
Halasz/Naxos
   
Mahler 8th symphony   

Solti / Chicago SO / Decca
Segerstam / Chandos
   
Mahler 9th symphony   

Ancerl/Supraphone
Karajan/DG/Live
Klemperer / EMI
   
Mahler 10th symphony   

Rattle/Bornemouth/EMI
   
Mahler - Lied von Der Erde   

Bertini/EMI
Horenstein/BBC
   
Mahler - Kindertotenlieder   

Walter/Ferrier/VPO/Naxos



Edit : for alignments and clarity  0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on June 18, 2007, 03:05:33 PM
Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Hi All,

I have been thinking of expanding my Mahler CDs with going more onto individual versions. I only have the Bertini cycle, good enough for all i know, with a couple of individual performances (in bold below). For my exercise, I have been going through soem of the information from this site and others (Tony Duggan, Classics today, Amazon reviews,..), books like All Music Guide, etc. I appreciate that opinions will of course vary on such and such recording and no recording is definitive in itself, but i aim at building myself a cycle with ideally as many conductors as possible, to sample the various approaches, but still sticking to recordings considered "essential" in each symphony/piece.   







Do check out the Karajan 6th, you won't regret it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 18, 2007, 03:28:01 PM
Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 1st symphony

Kubelik/DG/Bavaria orch
Solti/LSO/Decca (coupled with M2)
Zinman / Tonhalle
Maazel / VPO


The Solti is certainly pleasant but not in the best sound. Kubelik has not been surpassed here. That's easily the first choice.

Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 2nd symphony   

Solti/LSO/Decca (coupled with M1)
Klemperer / EMI / GROTC

May I recommend instead Haitink/Concertgebouw or Chailly/Concertgebouw? More color than Solti, less thick and square than Klemp.

Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 3rd symphony   

Horenstein/LSO/Unicorn
Bernstein/Sony/NYPO

Not familiar with eitehr of those, but I would again get either Haitink/CSO or Chailly/Concertgebouw. Glorious sound and glorious playing.

Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 4th symphony   

Szell/Sony/Cleveland
Reiner/Chicago/SO

Reiner is very good. But I would get Kletzki/VPO who really has an unsurpassed grasp of the subtle irony of this work.

Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 5th symphony   

Tennstedt/EMI
Inoue/RPO
Barbirolli/Philarmonia/EMI
Bernstein/VPO/DG

Chailly/Concertgebouw, Kubelik/BRSO to me are much more convincing than Bernstein or Barbirolli here. Haven't heard the others.
   
Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 6th symphony (not sure on those...)   

Abbado / DG / BPO
Szell
Barbirolli
Boulez
Eiji Oue / Fontec
Mitropoulos

I haven't heard any of those. Here I would get Solti/CSO or Tilson Thomas/SFSO. I am also told the new Eschenbach/Philly is outstanding, but haven't heard it yet. There is also an outstanding, but hard to find, Rattle/BPO live recording from the 80s (though he switches the middle movements around).

Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 7th symphony   

Horenstein / New Philarmonia
Rattle/CBSO/EMI
Bernstein/Sony
Halasz/Naxos

Forget those and get Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin. Rich, warm, yet transparent, pulsing, alive and always compelling.
   
Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 8th symphony   

Solti / Chicago SO / Decca
Segerstam / Chandos

Solti is certainly a classic, but the more recent Chailly/Concertgebouw comes in far better sound and with a warmer orchestral palette. Don't know Segerstam, but have been less than impressed with the sound engineering on the few chandos discs I have.
   
Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 9th symphony   

Ancerl/Supraphone
Karajan/DG/Live
Klemperer / EMI

All good choices. I would only add Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin. Same comments apply as for his 7th.

Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Mahler 10th symphony   

Rattle/Bornemouth/EMI

Right conductor and label, wrong orchestra. Get the same with the BPO instead. Much finer performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 18, 2007, 06:30:07 PM
A great first of unusual provenance is on the swiss label Novalis with Colin Davis and the BRSO. As good as Kubelik's, but rather more expansive and in spectacular yet very natural sound.

The Horenstein New Philharmonia 7th must be a figment of your imagination. Maybe you meant Klemperer?

For 5 and 10 (complete 5 movements), give a try to the cheap Barshai set. An instant classic.

O Mensch is right, you can do much worse than going for Haitink - Amsterdam, at least for symphonies 2, 3, 5, 7 and 9. Many think his 3 and 9 are top choices. Many don't but that's their problem ;D.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 18, 2007, 06:42:29 PM
One could do much worse than O Mensch's recommendations; however, I just can't help myself, so I'll throw in my 0.02$.

1. Kubelik (DGG, 1968): Still the reference. I like Ormandy's 1970 RCA record, but he doesn't really have the same way as Kubelik, and adds "Blumine." Not cool, IMO.

2. Mehta (Decca, 1975): Probably the recording that balances the apocalyptic and redemptive, the life and death best. Mehta really lit a fire for the WP on this one.

3. Haitink (Philips, 1966): This might be my reference M3. In any event, Haitink guides the Concertgebouw through a really first-rate performance.

4. Abbado (DGG, 2006): Abbado's "chamber-Mahler" doesn't work in every case, but in Mahler's most "Classical" effort, it pays off. You get La Renée, which isn't the ideal singer, in the fourth movement. If you want a great soprano, at least one who sounds the part, Reiner - Della Casa is a good combination. This is one for Abbado's unique approach to Mahler.

5. Von Karajan (DGG, 1973): For whatever reason, Von Karajan never established himself as a Mahlerian as publicly as other conductors did, and many of them really didn't have his talent. His 5th is slick, elegant, and has some horsepower under the hood when necessary.

6. Boulez (DGG, 1995): A thunderous, earth-shattering performance. Boulez' Mahler really should be experienced live, and this disc is as close of a recording as I have found. Overwhelming, inevitable, and powerful. You'll want to get Mitropoulos' 1959 WDRSO (Köln) performance, which is sui generis, but Boulez' is as good as anything you'd want.

7. Barenboim (Warner, 2006): Boulez' M7 was my favorite for a long time, until Barenboim took the field and won the game. It's powerful, intelligent, and I'll just agree with O Mensch.

8. Tennstedt (EMI, 1986): Another intelligent and well-thought-out performance from a Mahler conductor with his own ideas and the skill to realize them. Not as manic and brash as Solti, but with a spirituality and power all its own. Kubelik is one in this vein. If you want a rich, almost-Wagnerian, performance, Kent Nagano is the man for you.

9. Klemperer (EMI, 1967): Unflinching, granitic, and monolithic. Klemperer is Klemperer, and Mahler's symphony - IMO - benefits from such a dry-eyed approach. No sense making it a sob-fest. Bruno Maderna's 1971 BBCSO performance is interesting and no less powerful, but talk about manic.

These are just my suggestions. O Mensch makes good ones, too, and your choices weren't bad either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:40:20 AM
Quote from: papy on June 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
again, in bold are the ones i already own, in italic, the ones i am considering already.... Does that seem to you like a good starting list please ?

Looks good to me. I own most of them (not the Inoue 5, Mitropoulos 6, Horenstein 7 or Segerstam 8 ) and some are among my favorite versions. The only ones on your list I would not recommend: the Rattle 10 (his Berlin version is better but I still prefer Barshai, Gielen, Sanderling and above all, Ormandy) and the Naxos 7. Better to go with one of the great performances in this problematic (to some) symphony: Barenboim, Abbado (Chicago), Chailly or Bernstein (Sony or DG). My own favorite Seventh I don't recommend to anyone; it's just too weird ;D

I can't fault O or PSmith's recommendations. I particularly agree with O's choice of Solti for the 6th and Smith's Klemperer 9. Both recommended Barenboim in 7. So do I.

I'd add:

Maazel with Battle 4 (slowest last movement I've ever heard and it works beautifully)

Ozawa 1 (I love the Blumine; I think it fits perfectly between the first movement and the second. The five movement scheme seems very Mahlerian to me)

Kaplan 2 (either performance but I lean towards Vienna; arguably Kaplan knows this symphony better than anyone)

Haitink or Kubelik with Baker Das Lied von der Erde (Janet Baker...remember that name  8) )

Barbirolli with Baker Kindertotenlieder, Rückertlieder

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on June 19, 2007, 05:47:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:40:20 AM
My own favorite Seventh I don't recommend to anyone; it's just too weird ;D
I'm probably going to get the Klemperer some time soon, actually. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:50:34 AM
Quote from: edward on June 19, 2007, 05:47:37 AM
I'm probably going to get the Klemperer some time soon, actually. ;)

Really? Cool   8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 06:20:44 AM
Call centres and the incincere messages whilst I absorb my time holding until someone actually deals with me.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 06:38:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:40:20 AM
Looks good to me. I own most of them (not the Inoue 5, Mitropoulos 6, Horenstein 7 or Segerstam 8 ) and some are among my favorite versions. The only ones on your list I would not recommend: the Rattle 10 (his Berlin version is better but I still prefer Barshai, Gielen, Sanderling and above all, Ormandy) and the Naxos 7. Better to go with one of the great performances in this problematic (to some) symphony: Barenboim, Abbado (Chicago), Chailly or Bernstein (Sony or DG). My own favorite Seventh I don't recommend to anyone; it's just too weird ;D

I can't fault O or PSmith's recommendations. I particularly agree with O's choice of Solti for the 6th and Smith's Klemperer 9. Both recommended Barenboim in 7. So do I.

I'd add:

Maazel with Battle 4 (slowest last movement I've ever heard and it works beautifully)

Ozawa 1 (I love the Blumine; I think it fits perfectly between the first movement and the second. The five movement scheme seems very Mahlerian to me)

Kaplan 2 (either performance but I lean towards Vienna; arguably Kaplan knows this symphony better than anyone)

Haitink or Kubelik with Baker Das Lied von der Erde (Janet Baker...remember that name  8) )

Barbirolli with Baker Kindertotenlieder, Rückertlieder

Sarge

The Ormandy performance of the M10 is, in my book, probably the best. It was, as I recall, sanctioned by the former Frau Mahler, at that point Frau Mahler-Gropius-Werfel, and it has a freshness that Cooke eventually revised out of the work. I doubt that removal was his intent, but it happened. Ormandy's Philadelphia crew, as elegant as ever, does a fine job with - from the 875 Gustav Mahler-completed bars to Cooke's completion of the remaining 1119 bars - Mahler's last and conceivably most-difficult symphony.

Either Haitink or Kubelik is a good rec. for Das Lied. I'm partial to the 1987 Salzburg performance by Giulini with Brigitte Fassbaender and Francisco Araiza, on Orfeo as part of its share of the Festspiel Dokumente program. Not bad, and Giulini's elegance works well.

Still, the Sergeant's recs, too, are hard to beat.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 09:03:46 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 06:38:09 AM
The Ormandy performance of the M10 is, in my book, probably the best. It was, as I recall, sanctioned by the former Frau Mahler, at that point Frau Mahler-Gropius-Werfel, and it has a freshness that Cooke eventually revised out of the work. I doubt that removal was his intent, but it happened. Ormandy's Philadelphia crew, as elegant as ever, does a fine job with - from the 875 Gustav Mahler-completed bars to Cooke's completion of the remaining 1119 bars - Mahler's last and conceivably most-difficult symphony.

Agree completely. I've known this Mahler 10 for 40 years. It's remained my favorite Tenth despite hearing nearly every other recorded version. I heard Ormandy talk about the first time he and the Philadelphia played it in concert. He said during those closing pages of the last movement there was not a dry eye in the house. Hyperbole, of course, but that is exactly the emotion I feel when I listen to Ormandy's recording. It does choke me up. There are better sounding recordings but none plumb the emotional depths quite like Ormandy and Philadelphia.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 09:08:36 AM
Daft question here.....is the version Ormandy uses the Cook one and is it the same draft used in the much later recordings? I had thought the version Rattle for instance uses was new at the time. I don't have my Mahler CDs around to consult.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on June 19, 2007, 09:34:46 AM
Quote from: knight on June 19, 2007, 09:08:36 AM
Daft question here.....is the version Ormandy uses the Cook one and is it the same draft used in the much later recordings? I had thought the version Rattle for instance uses was new at the time. I don't have my Mahler CDs around to consult.

Mike

Ormandy 1965 used Cooke's Version I which he completed in 1964, that was his first complete performing version.  Cooke Version 0 was from 1960 although the 1/3/5 were complete he only transcribed fragments of the 2nd & 4th movements

Cooke's revisions from 1966 to 1972 were the basis of all Mahler 10th recordings from 1972 to 1992.  And his final revisons the third Cook performing version was issued in 1989, I guess recordings from 1992 onwards use Cooke III, but the core of Mahler 10th's use Cooke II.

Then there's Barshai (Barshai Brilliant Issue), Carpenter (Andrew Litton), Wheeler (Robert Olson), Mazetti (only Slatkin did this that I know of), Samale/Mazzucca (not issued as a recording yet)

The Ormandy is one of my favourite Mahler 10th's also  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 09:41:52 AM
Quote from: knight on June 19, 2007, 09:08:36 AM
Daft question here.....is the version Ormandy uses the Cook one and is it the same draft used in the much later recordings? I had thought the version Rattle for instance uses was new at the time. I don't have my Mahler CDs around to consult.

Mike

Ormandy's recording is the premiere of the so-called Cooke I version, which had its premier under Berthold Goldschmidt in August 1964 at the Proms. This version was the only one to receive Frau Mahler's permission, as she died that year. Cooke II, 1966-1972, was premiered by Goldschmidt, too, and was the standard edition until Cooke III - done between 1972 and 1975, but interrupted by Cooke's 1976 death - which was published in 1989. Since Martinon's version is OOP, as far as I can tell, Ormandy's version is the only recording of Cooke I still on the market, which is a shame. Sentimentally, I think that Alma Mahler's approval makes Cooke I the hands-down choice; pragmatically, I know that you rarely get something as "right" as you do the first time after monkeying around with it.

Rattle used Cooke II, with some personal percussion revisions, as I recall, for his Bournemouth recordings, and Cooke III for his Berlin version. I think, in any event, that this was the case.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 19, 2007, 09:46:16 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 09:41:52 AM
Since Martinon's version is OOP, as far as I can tell...

With which orchestra was this?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 09:47:24 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 09:41:52 AM
Ormandy's recording is the premiere of the so-called Cooke I version, which had its premier under Berthold Goldschmidt in August 1964 at the Proms. This version was the only one to receive Frau Mahler's permission, as she died that year. Cooke II, 1966-1972, was premiered by Goldschmidt, too, and was the standard edition until Cooke III - done between 1972 and 1975, but interrupted by Cooke's 1976 death - which was published in 1989. Since Martinon's version is OOP, as far as I can tell, Ormandy's version is the only recording of Cooke I still on the market, which is a shame. Sentimentally, I think that Alma Mahler's approval makes Cooke I the hands-down choice; pragmatically, I know that you rarely get something as "right" as you do the first time after monkeying around with it.

Rattle used Cooke II, with some personal percussion revisions, as I recall, for his Bournemouth recordings, and Cooke III for his Berlin version. I think, in any event, that this was the case.

Sort of sounds like Cooke ought to have gotten out a bit more, eh?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on June 19, 2007, 09:50:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 09:47:24 AM
Sort of sounds like Cooke ought to have gotten out a bit more, eh?

Guess it paid well Karl  ;D

Now we just need a full lecture to describe what the others did differently, what they amended.  Wonder if Zander fancies knocking something up for me  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 09:52:43 AM
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 19, 2007, 09:50:48 AM
Guess it paid well Karl  ;D

Now we just need a full lecture to describe what the others did differently, what they amended.  Wonder if Zander fancies knocking something up for me  ;D

You like Zander? His sing-song voice annoys the hell out of me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 09:56:19 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 19, 2007, 09:46:16 AM
With which orchestra was this?

Chicago Symphony Orchestra, if I recall correctly. Martinon was music director there from '63-'68, following Fritz Reiner and preceding Georg Solti.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 09:47:24 AM
Sort of sounds like Cooke ought to have gotten out a bit more, eh?

He was a musicologist, but - yes - he probably should have gotten a hobby other than attempting to idiomatically orchestrate Gustav Mahler's four-stave notation for the last half of his last symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 09:58:11 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 09:52:43 AM
You like Zander? His sing-song voice annoys the hell out of me.

He's a good speaker, and fairly enjoyable to listen to, live.  I wouldn't listen to him in recorded commentary, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 09:58:52 AM
So Cooke likes to complete Mahler's 10th. Surely nobody can fault him for that right? There are other people with weirder hobbies like analyzer bug feces.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 10:05:49 AM
Exceeds Low Expectations
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 10:06:24 AM
Seriously, lads, thank you for the fascinating info viz. Cooke.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on June 19, 2007, 10:06:40 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 09:52:43 AM
You like Zander? His sing-song voice annoys the hell out of me.

Yes, I don't mind his Mahler freebie 'lectures'.  Quite informative and entertaining.

Gerhard Schwarz, once of my local RLPO was excellent at pre concert talks which he used to give in Liverpool on Sundays before performing a couple of major works for £5 a concert.

Used to enjoy getting out of the house for a good Sunday session with Mr Schwarz, it wasn't just Tony & Gerhard, a thousand other people were there as well, hope I wasn't giving the impression that GS did his lectures just for me  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 10:14:07 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 09:58:52 AM
So Cooke likes to complete Mahler's 10th. Surely nobody can fault him for that right? There are other people with weirder hobbies like analyzer bug feces.

Eh. My gripe is that the Cooke I performing version was pretty solid and had Frau Mahler's approval. He then continued to revise and "correct," with no successive version having the freshness and je ne sais quoi of the original. Maybe, its originality? ( ;))

Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 10:06:24 AM
Seriously, lads, thank you for the fascinating info viz. Cooke.

Who doesn't love technical textual history?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 19, 2007, 10:28:12 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 09:56:19 AM
Chicago Symphony Orchestra, if I recall correctly. Martinon was music director there from '63-'68, following Fritz Reiner and preceding Georg Solti.

That's correct. Was this a commercial recording or something issued "from the archives" by the CSO, along the lines of the Martinon Mahler 3?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 10:36:31 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 19, 2007, 10:28:12 AM
That's correct. Was this a commercial recording or something issued "from the archives" by the CSO, along the lines of the Martinon Mahler 3?

It was a CSO release, I think.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 10:48:06 AM
Guys, Thanks very much for the info. I have never quite come to terms with the 10th, not an issue with it being inauthentic in any way. I will get to grips with it,I just so far have not connected well with it.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 11:17:05 AM
Quote from: knight on June 19, 2007, 10:48:06 AM
Guys, Thanks very much for the info. I have never quite come to terms with the 10th, not an issue with it being inauthentic in any way. I will get to grips with it,I just so far have not connected well with it.

Mike

Sure thing. I should say that, much as I like the Ormandy M10, I haven't come to grips with the symphony itself. It's sort of like, relative to his oeuvre, like walking down a road, cresting a hill, and seeing something entirely unexpected.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 11:36:28 AM
Yes; perhaps I would have been more open with it had I been told it was by someone influenced by Mahler. Somehow the 9th feels so much like the period at the end of a long book, I find it difficult to get my head round basically a resurrection.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve on June 19, 2007, 11:39:24 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 11:17:05 AM
Sure thing. I should say that, much as I like the Ormandy M10, I haven't come to grips with the symphony itself. It's sort of like, relative to his oeuvre, like walking down a road, cresting a hill, and seeing something entirely unexpected.

I experience the same feeling while listening to his 9th. That final movement is anything but expected.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 11:54:24 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 10:14:07 AM
Eh. My gripe is that the Cooke I performing version was pretty solid and had Frau Mahler's approval. He then continued to revise and "correct," with no successive version having the freshness and je ne sais quoi of the original. Maybe, its originality? ( ;))

Yes. II and III must have been partly exercises in self-loathing  ;D

QuoteWho doesn't love technical textual history?

In moderation, one of life's great pleasures, indeed  0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 11:58:22 AM
Quote from: knight on June 19, 2007, 11:36:28 AM
Yes; perhaps I would have been more open with it had I been told it was by someone influenced by Mahler. Somehow the 9th feels so much like the period at the end of a long book, I find it difficult to get my head round basically a resurrection.

Mike

It's a transitional work, and it would have been interesting to see where Mahler was going with his style, had he not died. As it is, I am just used to the progression from Das klagende Lied through the 1st and the Wunderhorn symphonies to the middle period and, then, the 8th and 9th. The 10th seems like Mahler was opening a new door, beyond even the 7th and 9th, but it's a door I just don't fully understand - beyond its power and beauty, to mix my metaphors.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 11:54:24 AM
Yes. II and III must have been partly exercises in self-loathing  ;D

I was going to say masochism, but self-loathing works, too.

QuoteIn moderation, one of life's great pleasures, indeed  0:)


Hey, there's nothing better than sorting out which version came first and which version incorporated which revision.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 19, 2007, 12:16:54 PM
Thank you everyone for your input on my "list" ! that's me now heading back to the drawing board to fine tune it, which was no less that what i was expecting when i posted my query ... glad i said it wasn't a definitive list ;D




Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 19, 2007, 12:33:59 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 18, 2007, 06:30:07 PM

The Horenstein New Philharmonia 7th must be a figment of your imagination. Maybe you meant Klemperer?


Bonjour Andre,

for once, not my imagination in this case, i read that here :

http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca:8080/Mahler/Symphony7 (http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca:8080/Mahler/Symphony7)

but hey, what do I know ? that's why i asked here  ;)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 19, 2007, 02:14:48 PM
right, i have revamped the list as below and ordered some of it too !!  ;D

M1 - Kubelik (on order)
M2 - sticking with my Klemperer for now (Chailly/concertgebouw in basket for later)
M3 - Haitink/concertgebouw (pricey - in basket for later)
M4 - Reiner/Chicago (cheap but off stock, so basket for later)
M5 - sticking with my Tennstedt for now (Bernsstein/VPO in basket for later)
M6 - Szell/Cleveland (cheap but off stock, so basket for later)
M7 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle (pricey, basket for later)
M8 - Sticking with my Solti for now
M9 - Karajan Live/DG (on order, used)
M10 - Ormandy (on order)

I'll keep the lieder for later on as well !... had to control the budget a bit !!  :-\

I ordered Steinberg's book though, "The Symphony : A listener's guide"...will be handy reading for those, and the Bruckner's sibelius's etc... !!  :)

thanks again for your comments and recommendations. I'll keep you posted  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 19, 2007, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: papy on June 19, 2007, 12:33:59 PM
Bonjour Andre,

for once, not my imagination in this case, i read that here :

http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca:8080/Mahler/Symphony7 (http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca:8080/Mahler/Symphony7)

but hey, what do I know ? that's why i asked here  ;)



I stand corrected :-[. Sorry for that. I had no idea this had ever existed. Indeed I'm rather surprised to learn that Horenstein had any interest in this, maybe the most 'specialized' Mahler symphony.

OK, now, what does it sound like?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on June 19, 2007, 03:15:51 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 19, 2007, 03:04:48 PM
I stand corrected :-[. Sorry for that. I had no idea this had ever existed. Indeed I'm rather surprised to learn that Horenstein had any interest in this, maybe the most 'specialized' Mahler symphony.

OK, now, what does it sound like?  ;D

According to Hurwitz (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2304)

According to Duggan (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/nov00/Mahler7Horenstein.htm)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 09:47:24 AM
Sort of sounds like Cooke ought to have gotten out a bit more, eh?


One reason Cooke continued to work on the orchestration is because many critics complained his original didn't sound enough like Mahler. And today critics do seem to prefer the revision's fuller, more idiomatic sound. PSmith and I are probably in the minority here. The reason I like Cooke I is because it doesn't pretend to be anything more than a performing edition of the existing original material. There's just enough done to Mahler's extant score to make it presentable in concert...to let us hear the "idea" of this work and get a feel of where Mahler was heading. (The Ninth wasn't the end. Mahler didn't think it was the end.) I think it's presumptuous to go beyond what Cooke did originally (it's second guessing Mahler). And I think it's simply more poignant hearing this skeleton.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 19, 2007, 03:22:47 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 19, 2007, 03:04:48 PM
I stand corrected :-[. Sorry for that. I had no idea this had ever existed. Indeed I'm rather surprised to learn that Horenstein had any interest in this, maybe the most 'specialized' Mahler symphony.

OK, now, what does it sound like?  ;D

no worries at all  :)...that was just one info i picked as i browsed around for the mahler symphonies..that site seemed overly keen on horenstein for whatever reason...haven't listened to him yet, and it has moved down the "to buy" list, now the barenboim is on favorite for the 7th...so it will be while yet ;)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 19, 2007, 03:26:58 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 19, 2007, 03:15:51 PM
According to Hurwitz (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2304)

According to Duggan (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/nov00/Mahler7Horenstein.htm)

One's mileage may vary....  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 03:33:55 PM
Quote from: papy on June 19, 2007, 03:22:47 PM
that site seemed overly keen on horenstein for whatever reason...

Yes, be careful. Horenstein, much like Celibidache, has become a cult figure. That isn't the conductors' fault but the result of overly zealous fans. I'm one of them  ;D  But I'm hesitant about recommending their recordings to the uninitiated.

Sarge 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 04:11:23 PM
The Horenstein M3 is probably THE single most overrated recording ever. Is it good? Parts of it. But let's face the facts 1) terrible sound, sonic picture moves all over the place. Sounds like the balance engineer was on morphine half the time 2) uninspired lower strings, especially weak basses 3)Little sense overall of the rubato that is so important in Mahler's music.

I guess in Sarge's case if you grow up with it you can live with it. But I didn't grow up with it therefore I don't have to cut it any slack.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 04:12:54 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 03:16:18 PM

One reason Cooke continued to work on the orchestration is because many critics complained his original didn't sound enough like Mahler.

I'm sure that was part of the complaint levied against him, Sarge . . . but the complainers flatter themselves that they know how Mahler would have sounded, in his tenth symphony.  Which no one but Mahler would be in a position to know.

Imagine that Beethoven wrote only his symphonies nos. one through eight.  Imagine that he just left piano score for part of the ninth.  Imagine that the ninth as in fact we know it, was not finished by Beethoven, but an attempt by some (admittedly, unusually talented) musicologist.  They'd cry over how it doesn't sound like the Beethoven symphonies they already know . . . and of course, they'd be right.

You and Patrick have the right idea.  No one in the world knows how Mahler would have made his tenth sound;  so Cooke had no need to adjust his original completion, at least out of that consideration.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 04:19:10 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 19, 2007, 04:11:23 PM
The Horenstein M3 is probably THE single most overrated recording ever. Is it good? Parts of it. But let's face the facts 1) terrible sound, sonic picture moves all over the place. Sounds like the balance engineer was on morphine half the time 2) uninspired lower strings, especially weak basses 3)Little sense overall of the rubato that is so important in Mahler's music.

Yes, those are some of the negative things about the recording and performance. But you didn't list the positive, and there are positive, even unique things about it...which is what I focus on when I listen to it. But as I said, I don't recommend everything I personally love, and I seldom proselytize. I'm content to enjoy it by my lonesome  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 04:21:30 PM
I'm GMG's Newest Veteran


I need to get a life  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 04:25:24 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2007, 04:12:54 PM
I'm sure that was part of the complaint levied against him, Sarge . . . but the complainers flatter themselves that they know how Mahler would have sounded, in his tenth symphony.  Which no one but Mahler would be in a position to know.

Exactly.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 03:16:18 PM

One reason Cooke continued to work on the orchestration is because many critics complained his original didn't sound enough like Mahler. And today critics do seem to prefer the revision's fuller, more idiomatic sound. PSmith and I are probably in the minority here. The reason I like Cooke I is because it doesn't pretend to be anything more than a performing edition of the existing original material. There's just enough done to Mahler's extant score to make it presentable in concert...to let us hear the "idea" of this work and get a feel of where Mahler was heading. (The Ninth wasn't the end. Mahler didn't think it was the end.) I think it's presumptuous to go beyond what Cooke did originally (it's second guessing Mahler). And I think it's simply more poignant hearing this skeleton.

Sarge

I guess part of my reasoning, other than the fact that Cooke got it as right as he could on the first go, is that Mahler was making near-paradigm shifts in style pretty rapidly in his later symphonies. From the 5th to the 7th, there is a rapid and clear progression of style and sensibility. The 8th, as much as I sort of like it, is a train-wreck with the first half being Bach on steroids and the second half being an echt-Wagnerian oratorio. Then, out of nowhere, but - seemingly - out of every part of his oeuvre (stretching back to the 1st in some cases), come Das Lied and the 9th. The 10th, from what Mahler himself "finished" (i.e., orchestrated), was a continuation of the new direction of the 9th, but what did he really intend? Only Gustav Mahler knew. Cooke's first performing version, as the good Sergeant pointed out, is a skeleton. There's more Mahler there than in later versions, and that's what's important to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
Does anybody know how many musicians are involved in the recording of Chailly/RCO's M8?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:13:41 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
Does anybody know how many musicians are involved in the recording of Chailly/RCO's M8?

The normal amount...exactly one thousand  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
Does anybody know how many musicians are involved in the recording of Chailly/RCO's M8?

I just checked the booklet. It doesn't say. Sorry.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 05:27:06 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:18:51 PM
I just checked the booklet. It doesn't say. Sorry.

Sarge

That's alright, thanks for your effort anyway. Looks like I'll have to grab the DVD version, pause the screen and count then.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:30:28 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 04:39:17 PM
The 8th, as much as I sort of like it, is a train-wreck with the first half being Bach on steroids and the second half being an echt-Wagnerian oratorio.

;D :D ;D

I like to think of Part II as the opera Mahler never wrote. By the way, I love the 8th. I have no hesitations or doubts. It makes me wish he would have lived long enough to complete the Tenth and to compose one great opera...like Beethoven. In my alternative universe, he would have spent his declining years writing marvelous chamber music, piano quartets, string quintets and sextets.  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 05:27:06 PM
That's alright, thanks for your effort anyway. Looks like I'll have to grab the DVD version, pause the screen and count then.  :D

;D

I thought about counting when I was at the Philharmonie in Berlin last April. I estimated instead. 125 orchestra, 8 soloists, 400 in the three choirs maybe. Far less than a thousand anyway. False advertising. I should have demanded my money back  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 05:43:57 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 05:30:28 PM
;D :D ;D

I like to think of Part II as the opera Mahler never wrote. By the way, I love the 8th. I have no hesitations or doubts. It makes me wish he would have lived long enough to complete the Tenth and to compose one great opera...like Beethoven. In my alternative universe, he would have spent his declining years writing marvelous chamber music, piano quartets, string quintets and sextets.  8)

Sarge

For whatever reason, I prefer Das Lied to the 8th. I suppose there are just two kinds of people in the world... ;)

Ah, if Mahler had lived twenty - even thirty - more years. The possibilities, and the changes to the face of modern music. Also, there would have been time to get him to do some acoustic recordings, at the very least. The Welte-Mignon rolls are nice, but actually hearing Mahler conduct his own works? I think that would pretty well settle any modern interpretative debates.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 06:03:37 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 05:43:57 PM
The Welte-Mignon rolls are nice, but actually hearing Mahler conduct his own works? I think that would pretty well settle any modern interpretative debates.

I think in one of those Zander/Mahler discussion discs (might be the one for the 5th symphony) there is a little excerpt of Mahler playing a piano reduction of the opening movement. I was shocked at how GOOD the sound quality is, better than the Schnabel Beethoven Sonatas recorded some a quarter of a century later.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 20, 2007, 06:09:52 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 19, 2007, 05:43:57 PM
For whatever reason, I prefer Das Lied to the 8th.

Me, too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 06:11:36 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 19, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
Does anybody know how many musicians are involved in the recording of Chailly/RCO's M8?

I was at a few of the live performances from which this recording was made, and there appeared to be roughly 500 people total (similar to Sarge's estimate in the Berlin Philharmonie). 

No performance I've seen so far uses anything close to 1,000 people, but I'm still hoping... ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on June 20, 2007, 06:19:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 20, 2007, 06:09:52 AM
Me, too.



Moi aussi!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:22:05 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 06:03:37 AM
I think in one of those Zander/Mahler discussion discs (might be the one for the 5th symphony) there is a little excerpt of Mahler playing a piano reduction of the opening movement. I was shocked at how GOOD the sound quality is, better than the Schnabel Beethoven Sonatas recorded some a quarter of a century later.

The sound quality is that good because it's modern sound, through and through. The Welte-Mignon machine, unlike conventional piano rolls, recorded (IIRC) the note, its duration, and the dynamics using ink marks, which were then transferred into holes that could be read by the Vorsetzer unit and played on an ordinary piano by means of felt-tipped rods. Despite having read the descriptions on the mighty Interweb numerous times, I still have no clue how it worked. However, Mahler cut four rolls for the Welte-Mignon people on 9th November 1905, which the Kaplan Foundation found, played on a machine, and recorded. So, in one sense, the performances are modern and Mahler had been dead for probably eighty years, but in another sense, it's as though Mahler himself is still in the room.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 20, 2007, 06:09:52 AM
Me, too.

I'm glad to know I'm not out here on my own for this one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 07:36:31 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:22:05 AM
The sound quality is that good because it's modern sound, through and through. The Welte-Mignon machine, unlike conventional piano rolls, recorded (IIRC) the note, its duration, and the dynamics using ink marks, which were then transferred into holes that could be read by the Vorsetzer unit and played on an ordinary piano by means of felt-tipped rods. Despite having read the descriptions on the mighty Interweb numerous times, I still have no clue how it worked. However, Mahler cut four rolls for the Welte-Mignon people on 9th November 1905, which the Kaplan Foundation found, played on a machine, and recorded. So, in one sense, the performances are modern and Mahler had been dead for probably eighty years, but in another sense, it's as though Mahler himself is still in the room.

I'm glad to know I'm not out here on my own for this one.

Yeah, I was googling it and found that out. Thanks !
Mahler playing Mahler in digital stereo, how nice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:41:43 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 07:36:31 AM
Yeah, I was googling it and found that out. Thanks !
Mahler playing Mahler in digital stereo, how nice.

It doesn't get much better than that, unless Wagner had an angelic singing voice, which I sort of doubt.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 07:46:02 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:41:43 AM
It doesn't get much better than that, unless Wagner had an angelic singing voice, which I sort of doubt.  ;D

They can't record VOICES on that those rolls right?

Zander doesn't tell you that details either, he just says "Mahler on piano roll". What a liar !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 08:44:04 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2007, 07:46:02 AM
They can't record VOICES on that those rolls right?

Nope. Just note, duration, and dynamics. (AFAIK)

QuoteZander doesn't tell you that details either, he just says "Mahler on piano roll". What a liar !

He's technically correct, but he could be a little more specific, as it's a bit of a marvel to have Mahler on any recorded medium - piano roll, wax cylinder, or what-have-you. In any event, no piano roll is a "live" recording, all mechanical all the time, as live recordings didn't come about until the cylinder days - later than the rolls.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mahlertitan on June 20, 2007, 10:34:26 AM
I have a recording of those piano rolls, they are interesting, but unfortunately they only represent very few pieces.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:21:21 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:22:05 AM
I'm glad to know I'm not out here on my own for this one.

No, it's me who's in the minority here. The 8th is the least favored symphony. Das Lied is far more popular. I've even heard diehard Mahlerites dis the 8th. I don't get it. The first part is pure ecstasy...the second part has some of the most sublime music I've ever heard. When I heard it live the first time, I couldn't believe how quickly it flew by. But then, it's nothing more than a quick stroll around the block compared to Parsifal. ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:32:24 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:21:21 PM
No, it's me who's in the minority here. The 8th is the least favored symphony. Das Lied is far more popular. I've even heard diehard Mahlerites dis the 8th. I don't get it. The first part is pure ecstasy...the second part has some of the most sublime music I've ever heard. When I heard it live the first time, I couldn't believe how quickly it flew by. But then, it's nothing more than a quick stroll around the block compared to Parsifal. ;D

Sarge

I totally agree, and can't think of any better words than "ecstasy" and "sublime."  It has always puzzled me why many Mahler admirers don't seem to like it at all, despite loving all the other symphonies.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 01:46:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:21:21 PM
No, it's me who's in the minority here. The 8th is the least favored symphony. Das Lied is far more popular. I've even heard diehard Mahlerites dis the 8th. I don't get it. The first part is pure ecstasy...the second part has some of the most sublime music I've ever heard. When I heard it live the first time, I couldn't believe how quickly it flew by. But then, it's nothing more than a quick stroll around the block compared to Parsifal. ;D

Sarge

I'd agree with your judgments about the first and second parts. The "Faust-cantata," which seems to me the most felicitous name for the second half, does it for me more than the first half, which I find a bit much - except for "Gloria Patri Domino" with the kids. "Blicket auf" is one of the few pieces of music (i.e., <5-6) that can "get" me; however, I still seem to prefer Das Lied. I don't know why.

Quote from: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:32:24 PM
I totally agree, and can't think of any better words than "ecstasy" and "sublime."  It has always puzzled me why many Mahler admirers don't seem to like it at all, despite loving all the other symphonies.

--Bruce

It's not particularly Mahlerian? I don't know that, nor do I think that there is one echt-Mahlerian symphonic idiom, but I do think the 8th is a pretty major departure from the 5-6-7 style and not really a prefiguration of the 9th-10th style. In fact, I tend to think of Das Lied being a better bridge than the 8th, stylistically speaking. The unique place the 8th holds in Mahler's works puts it in an awkward situation. I can't think of another, similarly massive, departure and innovation - which is what the 8th surely was, in its own way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:48:33 PM
Quote from: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 01:46:17 PM
It's not particularly Mahlerian? I don't know that, nor do I think that there is one echt-Mahlerian symphonic idiom, but I do think the 8th is a pretty major departure from the 5-6-7 style and not really a prefiguration of the 9th-10th style.

I would agree with you here.  It's almost as if he took "time out" to try something completely different. 

--Bruce

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:50:33 PM
I listened to four Resurrections this afternoon: Bernstein LSO, Bernstein NYPhil (DG), Walter and my new Slatkin. I promised a review this evening but Mrs. Rock and I took a long drive deep into the Pfalz for dinner. We ate well, drank well, and now I'm really tired. Review of the Slatkin tomorrow then, when I'm fresher. Food review in the Diner.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:50:33 PM
I listened to four Resurrections  this afternoon: Bernstein LSO, Bernstein NYPhil (DG), Walter and my new Slatkin.

:o

Will definitely look forward to your survivor's comments on those.  And with that, I bid you all adieu until tomorrow.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 02:11:15 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:50:33 PM
I listened to four Resurrections this afternoon: Bernstein LSO, Bernstein NYPhil (DG), Walter and my new Slatkin. I promised a review this evening but Mrs. Rock and I took a long drive deep into the Pfalz for dinner. We ate well, drank well, and now I'm really tired. Review of the Slatkin tomorrow then, when I'm fresher. Food review in the Diner.

Sarge

Good gravy. You deserve a good meal for that sort of effort. I'll be interested to hear your Slatkin review, especially compared to the two Bernstein sets.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 20, 2007, 05:27:31 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2007, 01:50:33 PM
I listened to four Resurrections this afternoon: Bernstein LSO, Bernstein NYPhil (DG), Walter and my new Slatkin. I promised a review this evening but Mrs. Rock and I took a long drive deep into the Pfalz for dinner. We ate well, drank well, and now I'm really tired. Review of the Slatkin tomorrow then, when I'm fresher. Food review in the Diner.

Sarge

Holy crap...that's like eating 4 super-sized double big mac meals in one sitting...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on June 20, 2007, 06:55:05 PM
Anyone here heard the BBC Legends Mahler 9 under Bruno Maderna? I notice a lot of people on rmcr are putting it near the top of their lists.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on June 20, 2007, 07:51:23 PM
Quote from: edward on June 20, 2007, 06:55:05 PM
Anyone here heard the BBC Legends Mahler 9 under Bruno Maderna? I notice a lot of people on rmcr are putting it near the top of their lists.

Let me put the Maderna recording in these terms: it is on the short list for my favorite Mahler 9th. I tend to prefer Klemperer, as there is something about his dry-eyed, granitic approach to the M9; however, the Maderna - with its surfeit of emotion (to the point of being manic) and fluid tempi - is endearing. I might say that Klemperer represents a performance in control and emotionally solid as a rock, while Maderna represents a performance on the edge. Not at all what one would expect from a Darmstadt composer, responsible for Quadrivium.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 22, 2007, 03:38:32 AM
Quote from: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:32:24 PM
I totally agree, and can't think of any better words than "ecstasy" and "sublime."  It has always puzzled me why many Mahler admirers don't seem to like it at all, despite loving all the other symphonies.

FWIW, Bruce (& Sarge) . . . Part I gets so much "in the way" for me, that it was years before I even bothered listening to Part II.  Now, I freely own, Part II justifies all the glowing adjectives anyone could hope to heap upon Mahler.  But (and this is one composer's particular view, of course, and YMMV) Part I strikes me too bluntly as abuse of the text . . . I think of the word which Shostakovich wrily applied to the finale of his Fourth, as he was 'explaining' why he had withdrawn it: Grandiosomania.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 22, 2007, 03:39:38 AM
Quote from: bhodges on June 20, 2007, 01:48:33 PM
I would agree with you here.  It's almost as if he took "time out" to try something completely different. 

In principle, nothing wrong with that, to be sure, Bruce :-)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 22, 2007, 03:41:12 AM
Quote from: edward on June 20, 2007, 06:55:05 PM
Anyone here heard the BBC Legends Mahler 9 under Bruno Maderna? I notice a lot of people on rmcr are putting it near the top of their lists.

Isn't that interesting?  Of course, Webern, too was a forward-thinking composer who conducted Mahler with simpatico insight . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on June 25, 2007, 01:33:03 PM
Has anyone caught this on PBS yet?:

(http://qpbs.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pPBS3-3640388dt.jpg)

http://www.shoppbs.org/sm-pbs-a-wayfarers-journey-listening-to-mahler-dvd--pi-2666295.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 02:07:29 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 25, 2007, 01:33:03 PM
Has anyone caught this on PBS yet?:

(http://qpbs.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pPBS3-3640388dt.jpg)

http://www.shoppbs.org/sm-pbs-a-wayfarers-journey-listening-to-mahler-dvd--pi-2666295.html


Christoph Esenbach as commentary...interesting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on June 25, 2007, 06:39:01 PM
It's really quite good. Eschenbach is a sensitive Mahlerian and sympathetic to the deep feelings expressed in Mahler's writing. It has plenty of nice clips of him conducting Mahler with the Curtis Institute Orchestra and Philadelphia Orchestra, and as accompanist for selected lieder. I found it very moving when he spoke about his difficult childhood as a war orphan, and how only music brought him out of this terrible time. It also features Richard Dreyfuss as the Voice of Mahler, reading passages from Mahler's letters. Recommended. :)

A clip, of the Adagietto-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Yyaqqd9gg
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 07:00:53 PM
Quote from: Greta on June 25, 2007, 06:39:01 PM
It's really quite good. Eschenbach is a sensitive Mahlerian and sympathetic to the deep feelings expressed in Mahler's writing. It has plenty of nice clips of him conducting Mahler with the Curtis Institute Orchestra and Philadelphia Orchestra, and as accompanist for selected lieder. I found it very moving when he spoke about his difficult childhood as a war orphan, and how only music brought him out of this terrible time. It also features Richard Dreyfuss as the Voice of Mahler, reading passages from Mahler's letters. Recommended. :)

A clip, of the Adagietto-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Yyaqqd9gg


Thanks for the link, Greta.   :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 30, 2007, 01:51:21 PM
Quote from: Greta on June 03, 2007, 11:01:02 PM
I just got a laugh! I got Karajan's live 9th on DG and looked at the track titles, and it actually says for some sections "Horns", "Brass", "Clarinets"...I guess because those smaller sections don't have specific tempo names. How funny! Those are about as good as I do for the signposts in my head when I'm listening myself. :D 

Wow, the 9th is absolutely transcendent. And it's really forward looking to the modern era, isn't it? Is this the one Schoenberg admired the most? I can definitely see why.

The 1st mvmt. shares some things in common with the 4th's Adagio and a little with the 5th's Adagietto, but also is interspersed with moments of sweeping chaos where he dances at the very edge of tonality. That thick mesh of polytonal writing where all the lines are moving at once, after the first big cries (Allegro risoluto), and those spooky brass clusters following. Incredible. This REALLY makes me wonder what he would've written if he'd not died young. I feel like studying this score is a black hole you could fall into. Such extremely complex and sophisticated writing!

I had to come back to edit this to say, it's really so affecting the way it vacillates between hope and despair, with pure bewilderment thrown in between. Almost painful at times. More than in any I feel here he's stuck in the nebulous place between two worlds, looking fondly back, despairing at going, and contemplating the beyond he's going to with this awed wonder and breathless confused mystery, (in the Wie von anfang and Lento!) I keep coming back in this mvmt. to those themes in his 4th and 5th Adagios, then he was gazing up at Heaven, but now it's this alternately scary, breathtaking beautiful reality. And when you consider the links between "I Am Lost to the World" and the 5th Adagietto, and the way he twists and distorts that theme in the middle of the Wie von anfang. I feel he's journeying down the tunnel towards the light, torn and unsure, and finally he comes to terms with it in the final minutes, the angels take him by the hand and say, "It's okay." The flute and violin solos...the angels' comforting voices...

And this is just the first movement!  :o I listened to this symphony only once before and it was just overwhelming, I knew I needed time, a lot of time, to come back to it, and finally here I am.

I haven't read this thread in awhile, but I like this post. The 9th being my favorite musical work of all time...
if it wasn't answered yet, it was Berg who described the opening movement as "the most glorious thing he ever wrote" (i've only read the line like a million times, lol)

yeah, i love that description of Mahler's music, especially stuff like the 9th. 'Love and pain' in the same breath, with a little bit of reflection and chaos, transcendence and banality all mixed together. It's like a yin yang  :D.
It's the way he hangs on to those major seconds and minor 3rds on the downbeat while remaining in a major context, just listen to the opening melody..... no other composer does this sort of stuff all the time, which is what makes him unique and why he's my favorite.

I read once that the whole 'love and pain' association came from the fact that his mother was cripple or kinda cripple, i can't remember. And also, the 9th being written as a farewell to the world by someone who enjoyed living (the love part) but has to die soon (the pain part) fits in, too. I just checked out a book today where I read the same exact idea, and i haven't thought of it before.

And yeah, the opening movement is so so so complex that's it's taken me a long time just to understand a lot of it. The recap, for example, doesn't exist, at least if you define a recap a certain, traditional way. As they were saying on the other thread, both the first and last movements don't have recaps but more like an exposition-development form. And the development has new material on top of that, i'm still trying to make sense of it...  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mahlertitan on June 30, 2007, 03:07:31 PM
anyone got the DVD?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: from the new world on July 02, 2007, 11:57:35 AM
Quote from: greg on June 30, 2007, 01:51:21 PM
And yeah, the opening movement is so so so complex that's it's taken me a long time just to understand a lot of it. The recap, for example, doesn't exist, at least if you define a recap a certain, traditional way. As they were saying on the other thread, both the first and last movements don't have recaps but more like an exposition-development form. And the development has new material on top of that, i'm still trying to make sense of it...  8)

The first movement does have a recapitulation, but it has to depend on what you define as the exposition. If the exposition includes the second climax, then there only seems half a recap, before the horn and flute solo section. However, if you shorten the exposition to the two main exposition themes leading to the first climax, then consider a modified (heavily) repeat (as in the opening of the seventh), then the recap fits in quite well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 02, 2007, 08:04:19 PM
I just listened to Solti/CSO's M1 and I've gotta say it's very good, maybe the second best right behind the Kubelik version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: techniquest on July 02, 2007, 10:47:25 PM
QuoteNo performance I've seen so far uses anything close to 1,000 people, but I'm still hoping...

The Sir Simon Rattle performance at the 2002 Proms at the Royal Albert Hall, London on August 13th 2002 had around 800 performers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 03, 2007, 10:28:59 AM
Quote from: techniquest on July 02, 2007, 10:47:25 PM
The Sir Simon Rattle performance at the 2002 Proms at the Royal Albert Hall, London on August 13th 2002 had around 800 performers.

Plenty of which were children/teens.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on July 04, 2007, 04:03:47 AM
A very interesting and detailed discussion of Mahler's Symphonies (the .pdf file below).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 04, 2007, 06:23:51 AM
Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2007, 04:03:47 AM
A very interesting and detailed discussion of Mahler's Symphonies (the .pdf file below).
nice......
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 04, 2007, 06:29:01 AM
Quote from: from the new world on July 02, 2007, 11:57:35 AM
The first movement does have a recapitulation, but it has to depend on what you define as the exposition. If the exposition includes the second climax, then there only seems half a recap, before the horn and flute solo section. However, if you shorten the exposition to the two main exposition themes leading to the first climax, then consider a modified (heavily) repeat (as in the opening of the seventh), then the recap fits in quite well.
yep, i guess it's just how you choose to define what ends where.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 10, 2007, 11:02:01 PM
Anyone find it unusual that the Titan symphony amazingly well made for the composer's first attempt at the genre? I particularly like the final movement, the "outbursts of despair" really got me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2007, 03:53:50 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 10, 2007, 11:02:01 PM
Anyone find it unusual that the Titan symphony amazingly well made for the composer's first attempt at the genre? I particularly like the final movement, the "outbursts of despair" really got me.

It is an amazing symphony but it wasn't his first attempt. As a student at the conservatory he wrote a symphony for a competition. There was a second symphony in A minor. Another symphony he worked on prior to his official First was called the Nordische Symphonie. In the library of Mahler's close friend and former mistress, the Baroness von Weber, Marion Mathilde, there were manuscripts of four early symphonies. There is anecdotal evidence that Mengelberg saw them and even played them on the piano some twenty years after Mahler's death. They were probably destroyed during the bombing of Dresden in 1944. Fire consumed most of the library.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 11, 2007, 07:02:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2007, 03:53:50 AM
In the library of Mahler's close friend and former mistress, the Baroness von Weber, Marion Mathilde, there were manuscripts of four early symphonies. There is anecdotal evidence that Mengelberg saw them and even played them on the piano some twenty years after Mahler's death. They were probably destroyed during the bombing of Dresden in 1944. Fire consumed most of the library.

Wow, I didn't know that. But the bombing of Dresden was in 1945. I have been waiting days to get back at you for proving me wrong about the Bohemia thing. Finally, my chance came. So there!
;D


Quote from: Florestan on July 04, 2007, 04:03:47 AM
A very interesting and detailed discussion of Mahler's Symphonies (the .pdf file below).

I am devastated that that nonsense in the first paragraph was written by de la Grange, *of all people*.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on July 11, 2007, 07:08:05 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 10, 2007, 11:02:01 PM
Anyone find it unusual that the Titan symphony amazingly well made for the composer's first attempt at the genre?

Not remarkably unusual, partly because ten other composers wrote very well made symphonies for their first, partly because Gustav was almost 30 when he finished writing his First.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 11, 2007, 11:28:25 AM
Very informative comments, Sarge and karl.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mahlertitan on July 12, 2007, 09:58:03 AM
It's remarkable indeed, but i think the composer with the most impressive "First" has to be Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on July 12, 2007, 10:30:14 AM
Quote from: MahlerTitan on July 12, 2007, 09:58:03 AM
It's remarkable indeed, but i think the composer with the most impressive "First" has to be Shostakovich.

I'd still vote for Brahms. Of course he took his bloody time with it and canned a lot of earlier attempts.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 12, 2007, 03:47:03 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 11, 2007, 07:02:02 AM
Wow, I didn't know that. But the bombing of Dresden was in 1945. I have been waiting days to get back at you for proving me wrong about the Bohemia thing. Finally, my chance came. So there!
;D

Son of a bitch...(to quote Cartman). I can't believe I wrote '44. Would you believe typo?...No? How about brain fart? No?... Damn. You got me then.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 21, 2007, 11:33:47 AM
I posted the question below in the "What are you listening to" thread earlier this week, but it got quickly swallowed up and didn't get a reply to. i'll have another go here  ;D

I was listening at the time to "Das Klagende Lied" on the Haitink/concertgebouw/Philips CD (with the Mahler 3). At 2'12 off the 4th "movement" (5th track off the 2nd CD - "Von Hohen Felsen..."), the sound of the brass section suddendly sounds totally muffled, like played from very far away, then after a while the singers are back in front, with the orchestra still muffled, then at 3'15 or so, the orchestra comes back to "normal" level...   ??? I noticed that happened also on Track 7 ("Ach Spielmann...")

Could someone who owns that CD shed some light on this please ? is it a recording default ? or an actual wanted effect ?

Thank you.

:)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlered on July 22, 2007, 09:31:32 AM
Das klagende Lied has parts specifically written for offstage wind band, to give the impression of distance, so the weird sounds on your recording are deliberate in principle. They're not supposed to be unclear, so that may be an issue with the recording, but the distant and muted aspect should be there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 22, 2007, 10:11:08 AM
Quote from: Mahlered on July 22, 2007, 09:31:32 AM
Das klagende Lied has parts specifically written for offstage wind band, to give the impression of distance, so the weird sounds on your recording are deliberate in principle. They're not supposed to be unclear, so that may be an issue with the recording, but the distant and muted aspect should be there.

Hi Mahlered, Thanks for the clarification on this. "Muffled" was a wrong term used on my part, "Distant and muted" as you said is more accurate for what I hear.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: dtwilbanks on September 28, 2007, 10:00:14 AM
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11218
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on September 28, 2007, 07:46:30 PM
I'm about to start with the 3rd symphony. I've listened to both the 1st and 2nd over 10 times each over the last few months, and I think I'm ready for the next one. Do you guys think I should keep going on with this order (1-10) or skip the 3rd and jump into an easier one first? Like the 4th or 5th, for example. All I know about the 3rd is that it has 6 movts and it's really long. I have access to Kubelik, Bertini and Bernstein.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2007, 06:44:13 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 28, 2007, 07:46:30 PM
I'm about to start with the 3rd symphony. I've listened to both the 1st and 2nd over 10 times each over the last few months, and I think I'm ready for the next one. Do you guys think I should keep going on with this order (1-10) or skip the 3rd and jump into an easier one first? Like the 4th or 5th, for example. All I know about the 3rd is that it has 6 movts and it's really long. I have access to Kubelik, Bertini and Bernstein.

When I was your age I didn't have the means to hear them chronologically. I couldn't afford recordings so I had to make do with the few LPs I found in the library, whatever happened to pop up on the radio or the occasional live concert. Before I was 22 I'd only managed to hear numbers 2 then 5, Das Lied, 6 and 4. I wish I could have approached them differently.

I think you should listen to the Third now...jump right in. Yeah, it's a monster, and was the most difficult of his symphonies for me to get into (it took years before I ventured beyond the first movement), but I still recommend it. Set aside 90 minutes, give a whirl, and then move on if it doesn't click right away.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on September 29, 2007, 07:10:13 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2007, 06:44:13 AM


I think you should listen to the Third now...jump right in. Yeah, it's a monster, and was the most difficult of his symphonies for me to get into (it took years before I ventured beyond the first movement), but I still recommend it. Set aside 90 minutes, give a whirl, and then move on if it doesn't click right away.

Sarge




With the 3rd, I had massive trouble getting past the first half. But I was completely taken with the last half, and eventually I ended up going back to the first and loving it as a whold. It does take time and patience, as Sarge mentioned.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: longears on September 29, 2007, 07:13:23 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 28, 2007, 07:46:30 PM
Do you guys think I should keep going on with this order (1-10) or skip the 3rd and jump into an easier one first? Like the 4th or 5th, for example.

"...easier one?"  ???

I would keep going and listen to the third before moving on.  Or not.  But if I weren't familiar with any of them, I would hesitate to judge them before hearing, whether as "easier" or anything else.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on September 29, 2007, 08:03:09 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 28, 2007, 07:46:30 PM
I'm about to start with the 3rd symphony. I've listened to both the 1st and 2nd over 10 times each over the last few months, and I think I'm ready for the next one. Do you guys think I should keep going on with this order (1-10) or skip the 3rd and jump into an easier one first? Like the 4th or 5th, for example. All I know about the 3rd is that it has 6 movts and it's really long. I have access to Kubelik, Bertini and Bernstein.

I take it by easier you mean shorter?  Try the fifth it's one of the shorter ones, but it also packs a hell of a punch (which I can't say about the first, not to say it's no good, it's just no fifth).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on October 02, 2007, 06:01:06 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on September 28, 2007, 07:46:30 PM
I'm about to start with the 3rd symphony. I've listened to both the 1st and 2nd over 10 times each over the last few months, and I think I'm ready for the next one. Do you guys think I should keep going on with this order (1-10) or skip the 3rd and jump into an easier one first? Like the 4th or 5th, for example. All I know about the 3rd is that it has 6 movts and it's really long. I have access to Kubelik, Bertini and Bernstein.

10 times over the last few months? Heh, try ten times over the last few weeks for better effect, if you ask me! ;D

In a more serious tone, however, the 3rd is indeed a veritable monster of a symphony, and the second-to-last I got through to, in terms of semantics (i.e. what it's trying to tell me). Still, it's worth a first go, and perhaps a by-pass into the 4th and 5th, before going back to it, if you ask me. Just don't involve (all of) the 6th, or (any part of) the 7th, much less the 8th or 9th, yet. ;)

P.S.: Bernstein NYPO is the way to go for a first listen, the Bertini also being something of a (sonic) blast! And of course Pierre Boulez' grand achievement of a recording, if you can get it. 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 02, 2007, 06:26:59 AM
Quote from: Renfield on October 02, 2007, 06:01:06 AM
And of course Pierre Boulez' grand achievement of a recording, if you can get it. 8)

Yes, listen to the Boulez recording! 

And I see no reason not to continue chronologically, if you have the time to hear the Third in one sitting!

Although people always talk about the Fifth as showing Mahler's move to a new direction, I think the Fourth is misidentified and lumped in with the "song symphonies" preceding it.

There is a struggling dissatisfaction in the Fourth, masked somewhat by its pastoral tone: the hectic use of the sleigh bells at certain moments, the sudden outbursts wanting to take over, insisting on dominance, but subsiding into calm: note the ending especially, which always leaves me dissatisfied and in something of a quandary: where is the rest of the symphony?!

So  I would have the Fourth stand alone as a bridge to the Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on October 02, 2007, 08:08:22 AM
Thanks for all your comments. Almost everyone quoted me and replied to my post, much appreciated. I'm going to start listening to the 3rd soon, probably with Bernstein. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on October 06, 2007, 09:38:04 AM
I went in this order...

5th, 4th, 3rd, 7th (unplanned order wise, but heard it on the radio and was fascinated), then 2nd, 6th, then 1st, 8th, and 10th, 9th, but really I'm still assimilating both of those last ones. ;)

I kept coming back to others earlier on the list too (and still do, all the time of course, because I adore Mahler) and that helped me understand them better, as I kept hearing links between all the symphonies as I was listening.

The idea was originally to start in the middle work backwards and then forwards from 5, but I ended up equally branching outwards from it! There's really no right or wrong way. I liked skipping around though.

And nothing says you have to feel like you should "get" one before you move on to the next, no previous mastery is needed to pick up on what's going on and enjoy the others. If you're curious about one, go for it - I took that curiosity as a signal I was "ready" for the "challenge". :D So I encourage jumping around, it made it even more fun for me.

I remember very well the first time I heard the 3rd, I was like what in the world...because it goes through so many different characters and is a collage of different styles of music, in its span.

All the mvmts are great, and the last one can be really sublime, but I will confess I often get stuck on the 1st, and know it better than the other mvmts. Definitely look up information about the work, which was huge help as it is quite programmatic. I think Mahler depicted the struggle between light (Spring) and dark (Winter) in the 1st mvmt brilliantly, it's fascinating, very vivid.

As far as recordings, there are tons of good ones, but my favorites are Abbado/Vienna, Boulez/Vienna, Salonen/Los Angeles, all superlative IMO. The last one is my favorite recording from that team, the detail, structure, playing, and recording, excellent in every way.

Vienna Phil, they sound incredible in both of those recordings. Boulez brings his usual uncanny examination, but Abbado is my #1 for being lyrical and powerful (the horns in his opening are fearsome!), atmospheric, and profound. The last mvmt is heartbreaking, I think he plays up links between it and the 5th's Adagietto, gorgeous stuff.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on October 06, 2007, 03:19:39 PM
Quote from: Greta on October 06, 2007, 09:38:04 AM
I went in this order...

5th, 4th, 3rd, 7th (unplanned order wise, but heard it on the radio and was fascinated), then 2nd, 6th, then 1st, 8th, and 10th, 9th, but really I'm still assimilating both of those last ones. ;)

I kept coming back to others earlier on the list too (and still do, all the time of course, because I adore Mahler) and that helped me understand them better, as I kept hearing links between all the symphonies as I was listening.

The idea was originally to start in the middle work backwards and then forwards from 5, but I ended up equally branching outwards from it! There's really no right or wrong way. I liked skipping around though.

And nothing says you have to feel like you should "get" one before you move on to the next, no previous mastery is needed to pick up on what's going on and enjoy the others. If you're curious about one, go for it - I took that curiosity as a signal I was "ready" for the "challenge". :D So I encourage jumping around, it made it even more fun for me.

I remember very well the first time I heard the 3rd, I was like what in the world...because it goes through so many different characters and is a collage of different styles of music, in its span.

All the mvmts are great, and the last one can be really sublime, but I will confess I often get stuck on the 1st, and know it better than the other mvmts. Definitely look up information about the work, which was huge help as it is quite programmatic. I think Mahler depicted the struggle between light (Spring) and dark (Winter) in the 1st mvmt brilliantly, it's fascinating, very vivid.

As far as recordings, there are tons of good ones, but my favorites are Abbado/Vienna, Boulez/Vienna, Salonen/Los Angeles, all superlative IMO. The last one is my favorite recording from that team, the detail, structure, playing, and recording, excellent in every way.

Vienna Phil, they sound incredible in both of those recordings. Boulez brings his usual uncanny examination, but Abbado is my #1 for being lyrical and powerful (the horns in his opening are fearsome!), atmospheric, and profound. The last mvmt is heartbreaking, I think he plays up links between it and the 5th's Adagietto, gorgeous stuff.

Good to hear your experiences, Greta! I'm looking forward to hear the 3rd. I went back to the 2nd on Abbado/LFO this afternoon. The whole symphony was well played and recorded throughout, except for the final passage after the final chorus...is it just me or is it supposed to be played that fast? Because from my previous experiences, most conductors slow down and expand the last chords to create the "grand", "heavenly" feeling. I like how he lets the last chord rings in reverberation after the whole symphony though, other conductors usually treat that note as a staccato (like Bernstein on Sony classics), and it really doesn't make sense because the music preceding that final note is made up of really long chords. So I liked how it ended like a Bruckner symphony, with the sounds of the brass/organ/thick strings just hanging in the auditorium. Superb ending.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on October 06, 2007, 03:59:07 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on October 06, 2007, 03:19:39 PM
So I liked how it ended like a Bruckner symphony, with the sounds of the brass/organ/thick strings just hanging in the auditorium. Superb ending.  :)

Bruno Walter was of the opinion that the one symphony to best show the results of Mahler's apprenticeship to Anton Bruckner was the 2nd, as I heard him comment in a radio interview.

So you're probably on to something, there. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on November 14, 2007, 10:15:44 AM
Anyone who love the Mahler Ninth may want to put down January 7, 2008 on the calendar.  Last night's performance of it with Simon Rattle and Berlin (at Carnegie) was taped by PBS for broadcast on Great Performances on that date. 

It was a fascinating, harrowing reading, and Rattle made the piece sound very modern, almost atonal.  The program also included the U.S. premiere of Magnus Lindberg's Seht die Sonne (2007), which was agreeable enough, if maybe not one of his best, but the orchestra played it about as well as could be imagined.

Apparently during the intermission feature, they will show excerpts from the Dudamel/Rattle concert on Monday night with the Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on November 14, 2007, 11:12:04 AM
Quote from: bhodges on November 14, 2007, 10:15:44 AM
Anyone who love the Mahler Ninth may want to put down January 7, 2008 on the calendar.  Last night's performance of it with Simon Rattle and Berlin (at Carnegie) was taped by PBS for broadcast on Great Performances on that date. 

It was a fascinating, harrowing reading, and Rattle made the piece sound very modern, almost atonal.  The program also included the U.S. premiere of Magnus Lindberg's Seht die Sonne (2007), which was agreeable enough, if maybe not one of his best, but the orchestra played it about as well as could be imagined.

Apparently during the intermission feature, they will show excerpts from the Dudamel/Rattle concert on Monday night with the Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela. 

--Bruce

Also of note: tonight's BPO/Rattle performance of Das Lied von der Erde and Tevot by Adès will be broadcast and webcast live by WNYC: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16227797
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on November 14, 2007, 11:13:04 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on November 14, 2007, 11:12:04 AM
Also of note: tonight's BPO/Rattle performance of Das Lied von der Erde and Tevot by Adès will be broadcast and webcast live by WNYC: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16227797

Yes, yes, yes.  If I'm not in the hall (will know later) I'll be glued to the radio. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: uffeviking on November 14, 2007, 06:19:03 PM
I was glued to my web cast set-up, but got in much too late, only the last portions of Das Lied. I am confused! Who sang? The announcer talked about Heppner sitting there with his hands in his lap listening, but I could not understand who he was listening to. Whoever it was, he better do something about finding those high notes right off, and not keep searching for them all over the place. Horrible!

Rattle and his conducting? All I can say, if I read one more derogatory remark about Celibidache and his slow tempi, I might get a bit testy. I have eight different versions of Das Lied von der Erde but this one must be half an hour longer any of them!  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on November 15, 2007, 03:35:40 PM
Heppner, alas, was not in his best form last night.  (This was confirmed by a friend who was actually in the hall.)  Quasthoff, on the other hand, was really good, and I thought Rattle and the orchestra did a very nice job with the score.  I can enjoy the piece with a variety of interpretations, even a slower one like this. 

I'm very curious to hear what Rattle will do with the Tenth, tomorrow night.  I suspect it's a piece that he really likes, and that he will bring some of the shocking qualities that he brought to the Ninth on Tuesday. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 04, 2008, 11:49:43 PM
Showing as a new release in February 4th on Amazon UK... not many details, and a steep price ..£36.99

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41iiX%2BUiSeL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on January 05, 2008, 02:04:39 AM
Quote from: papy on January 04, 2008, 11:49:43 PM
Showing as a new release in February 4th on Amazon UK... not many details, and a steep price ..£36.99

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41iiX%2BUiSeL._SS500_.jpg)

Details are to be found HERE (http://www.tahra.com/liste_product.php?search_field=pp.reference&content=liste_product&cle_second_parent=id_productscategorie&id_productscategorie=1&submit_rechercher=Search&search_data=Tah+642-644):

"Tah 642-644 - Previously unissued Mahler archives

CD I: Symphony No. 1 (Staatskapelle Dresden, J. Keilberth conducting) 4.II.1950
CD II: Symphony No. 2 (NWDR Sinfonieorchester, Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt conducting, soloists: Oda Balsborg and Sieglinde Wagner) 12.XI.1956
CD III: Symphony No. 4 (Städtisches Opernhaus- und Museumsorchester, Bruno Walter conducting, soloist: Annelies Kupper) 4.IX.1950

One of the essential traits in Mahler&#146;s creation is the fact that his works consist only of Lieder and symphonies. This apparently fortuitous fact is of capital importance: in fact it is the vivifying source of the Lied that nourished in him the symphonic flow and conditioned its evolution, at least in the first four symphonies.
The present three recordings come from German archives (Keilberth in Dresden, Schmidt-Isserstedt in Hamburg and Walter in Frankfurt).
"

BTW another Mahler IV with Walter - and a superb one - is to be found on this Tahra issue (TAH 524), rec. from 1953 with the NYPO and Irmgard Seefried.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410S7E0H10L._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-Mozart-35/dp/B00015WMDW/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1199530677&sr=1-3)
           click for link

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on January 05, 2008, 06:04:37 AM
And there is also the Mahler Fest that is on its 21st year here in Colorado (Jan 9-13).  See details at the link below for what is being performed:

http://www.mahlerfest.org/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Symphonien on January 07, 2008, 01:55:43 AM
Yes! My Dover scores of Mahler's 5th and 6th arrived today from Amazon! Awesome!!! ;D I'm sure I'll have a great time studying these. Now I need to get the rest of them too when I can afford it. >:D Just quickly flipping through, I noticed it still contains the third hammerblow in the Sixth, but it is placed not where I thought it would be, but instead after that section with the violin melody and harp glissando which leads to a minor chord. Interesting, I never knew that before. Can anyone recommend a good recording of the 6th which has this 3rd hammer blow from the original version?

Well, guess it's time to pull out Barshai's 5th and follow along with the score for the first time! 8)

By the way, just noticed that  Boulez's Mahler 8th (http://www.amazon.com/G-Mahler-Symphony-no-8/dp/B000TMCG8S/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1199702695&sr=1-1) will be released tomorrow. Are there any plans for a boxed set to be released in the near future? I've heard good things about Boulez's Mahler but am hesitant to buy any individual releases in case they release the whole thing in a convenient set.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:51:26 AM
Quote from: Que on January 05, 2008, 02:04:39 AM
One of the essential traits in Mahler&#146;s creation is the fact that his works consist only of Lieder and symphonies. This apparently fortuitous fact is of capital importance: in fact it is the vivifying source of the Lied that nourished in him the symphonic flow and conditioned its evolution, at least in the first four symphonies.

Which is why I suggested to a Mahler neophyte in another thread that he start with the songs. They are often overlooked here but they are of vital importance to understanding Mahler.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 07, 2008, 08:23:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:51:26 AM
Which is why I suggested to a Mahler neophyte in another thread that he start with the songs. They are often overlooked here but they are of vital importance to understanding Mahler.

Sarge
I think I understand Mahler, at least a little bit...but I almost never listen to his songs, other than Das Lied that is.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2008, 09:02:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2008, 07:51:26 AM
Which is why I suggested to a Mahler neophyte in another thread that he start with the songs. They are often overlooked here but they are of vital importance to understanding Mahler.

I agree. Every period in Mahler's compositional career has its harvest of symphonies and songs with all kinds of fascinating inter-connections. So the 'Des Knaben Wunderhorn' songs and the 'Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen' are the complement to the first four symphonies, as the 'Rückert-lieder' and the 'Totenkinderlieder' are to symphonies 5 to 7. 'Das Lied von der Erde' is the perfect culmination: a song-symphony, which is related to the Ninth.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Gustav on January 07, 2008, 09:56:02 AM
I'm glad that "Mahler Mania" is back, now has anyone heard of this recording?
(http://www.farao-classics.de/cover/b108046.jpg)
http://www.farao-classics.de/english/catalogue/mahler3-e.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on January 07, 2008, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Gustav on January 07, 2008, 09:56:02 AM
I'm glad that "Mahler Mania" is back, now has anyone heard of this recording?
(http://www.farao-classics.de/cover/b108046.jpg)
http://www.farao-classics.de/english/catalogue/mahler3-e.html

Yeah, it's right above Janowski's Ring on my bookshelf. It's OK. I prefer Boulez or Chailly, all things considered.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Symphonien on January 25, 2008, 03:21:05 AM
Has anyone heard the Boulez 8th yet?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RgkQtpGtL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daedalus on January 29, 2008, 04:56:24 AM
Hello all, I thought I better announce myself to this thread as a recently confirmed Mahlerite  :D

While trying to avoid repeating the information I put in my introductions thread, I just thought I would post some information about how I got into Mahler.

I am a 25 year old postgraduate literature student living in Hertfordshire, just north of London, in the UK. I have been listening to classical music for approximately one year - I am still very much a novice. I fell in love with Mahler symphonies 1 and 5 early on in my listening career - I was especially touched by the incredible orchestral colours, and the tempestuous percussion and brass in the fifth - and I then decided to to create a little project for myself to work through the Gustav Mahler symphonies and read in-depth about his life. I began to listen to the symphonies, starting at the beginning with Symphony no.1, listening to each piece somewhere between 7 and 10 times until it had 'sunk in', i.e. until I felt I had appreciated it. This was last summer and so far I have reached the eighth symphony. I also intend to listen to the songs after finishing the symphonies - I've probably done it the wrong way around as I am told that the songs inform the symphonies to an extent. Having listened to some of Des Knaben Wunderhorn, I certainly see the links to the first 4 symphonies!

I have found the David Hurwitz Unlocking the Masters books to be a wonderful aid to my listening - his Mahler symphonies book is terrific for a beginner. I have also read about Mahler in The Rough Guide to Classic Music, Michael Steinberg's The Symphony and Schonberg's Lives of the Great Composers. I read Mahler His Life Work and World by K. & H. Blaukopf, which is another fantastic way of finding out about Mahler's life.

I have been on a fantastic journey thus far. I particularly love the first three symphonies, and numbers five and six.  I have been slowly working through each piece, savouring every note and immersing myself in the world of Mahler.

I am also trying to see the Mahler symphonies performed by live orchestras in the future. This year, already, I have seen the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Valery Gergiev perform Symphony no. 1, which was fantastic. I have also have tickets to see Gergiev and the LSO perform Mahler's 2nd, 7th and 9th symphonies later this year. I can't wait!

Incidentally, BBC Radio Three is going to be showcasing some of Gergiev's Mahler cycle this week on Performance on Three. Indeed, yesterday was the first symphony performance that I attended a couple of weeks ago (available for listening on the BBC Three website), tonight the performance will be of Mahler's third, Wednesday is Mahler's fourth and Thursday is Mahler's sixth. Well worth catching, if you have DAB or can access it through the internet.

Yours Faithfully,
D.



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 29, 2008, 12:54:20 PM
Great to hear from you. I hope you enjoy it here. I am also in England. The Gergiev concerts ought to be a must see. I don't get to see as many concerts as I might. This year I will try to do better, no excuse really.

Mahler is a particular favourite of mine and I have not grown tired of his music in over 30 years of listening.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: paulb on January 29, 2008, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: knight on January 29, 2008, 12:54:20 PM
Great to hear from you. I hope you enjoy it here. I am also in England. The Gergiev concerts ought to be a must see. I don't get to see as many concerts as I might. This year I will try to do better, no excuse really.

Mahler is a particular favourite of mine and I have not grown tired of his music in over 30 years of listening.

Mike

Mike i detect a  bit of disingenious in your "not in 30 yrs". Don't you think its time to move on?
Let me ask you, what do you think about Berg, Schonberg, Webern? as compared to mahler?
Personally i find more excitment and interest  in Webern's short works in  chamber for soprano/piano than a  1.5 hour Mahler sym.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 29, 2008, 02:33:57 PM
I listen to lots of music, but I still get most pleasure from some of the less modern composers. I could list the living ones and recent dead, but to no real point. I do listen to both Berg and Schoenberg, but not all that often. The point I was making was that there is plenty in Mahler, as in many other composers, to keep someome interested for many years.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on January 29, 2008, 09:18:15 PM
What's everyon'e favorite "Resurrection"? Mine's the late Bernstein DG one...so stunning, overwhelming, breath-taking, awe-inspiring...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on January 30, 2008, 04:22:42 AM
Quote from: Nande ya nen? on January 29, 2008, 09:18:15 PM
What's everyon'e favorite "Resurrection"? Mine's the late Bernstein DG one...so stunning, overwhelming, breath-taking, awe-inspiring...




The Klemperer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daedalus on January 30, 2008, 05:54:52 AM
Another vote for the Klemperer - I also like the Berstein though  8)

I can't believe how good the ending to the second symphony is, especially the episode with the off-stage trumpet calls etc. The build up is wonderful. Spine-tinglingly good  ;D

I'm going to see Gergiev and the LSO perform it at the Barbican in March and I'm curious to see if they can pull it off.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2008, 06:22:41 AM
Quote from: Nande ya nen? on January 29, 2008, 09:18:15 PM
What's everyon'e favorite "Resurrection"? Mine's the late Bernstein DG one...so stunning, overwhelming, breath-taking, awe-inspiring...

Below are the Resurrections I own. My desert island trio are highlighted. Coincidentally, they're all with the Wiener Philharmoniker. Kaplan simply gets everything right (the result of long years of exclusive study and conducting of this symphony). Maazel gets everything wrong. He's too slow with tempos pulled like taffy; ultra interventionist to an extent even Lenny didn't dare. Perverse it may be but I find it a stunning, fascinating performance. Boulez makes the symphony sound like part of the 20th century instead of the 19th.

Special jury prize goes to an underdog: Slatkin and St.Louis. Telarc's sonics are stunning. The concluding pages have never sounded better with clearly differentiated chorus and orchestra, a prominent organ, percussion, and bells that sound like real church bells, not anvils. Kathleen Battle and the veteran Maureen Forrester (heard her thirty-five years ago in Cleveland when Ormandy conducted the Resurrection) are my favorite soloists.

I like Bernstein's DG performance too. I almost love it...but I think he saps the energy out of the choral peroration with a tempo that is just too slow. He loses the rhythmic thrust and robs the music of its emotion. I'm with Lenny all the way...up until that point just before the end when things, to my ears, fall apart.

BERNSTEIN/LSO
BERNSTEIN/NY PHIL (SONY)
BERNSTEIN/NY PHIL (DG)
SINOPOLI/PHILHARMONIA
KAPLAN/LSO
KAPLAN/WP
WALTER/COLUMBIA SO
SEGERSTAM/DANISH NAT RADIO
BOULEZ/WP
BERTINI/KÖLNER RSO
MAAZEL/WP
SLATKIN/ST LOUIS
TENNSTEDT/LPO
SOLTI/LSO
NEUMANN/CZECH PHIL
LEVI/ATLANTA
FRIED/BERLINER STAATSKAPELLE
KLEMPERER/PHILHARMONIA
MEHTA/WP
HAITINK/CONCERTGEBOUW

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2008, 06:28:01 AM
Quote from: Daedalus on January 29, 2008, 04:56:24 AM
Hello all, I thought I better announce myself to this thread as a recently confirmed Mahlerite  :D

Welcome, Daedalus. It's always good to have another Mahlerite join the forum (especially since we've lost a few prominent members like Mahler Titan and Mahlered).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 30, 2008, 07:03:06 AM
Quote from: Symphonien on January 25, 2008, 03:21:05 AM
Has anyone heard the Boulez 8th yet?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RgkQtpGtL._AA240_.jpg)

No, I did not realize it was out!  Looks like that will be my Father's Day present from somebody!

On the "Resurrection" list: RCA, in the early 1970's, had a great recording with Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra, which rattled the heavens.  Amazon does not list this anywhere.

Today I would also choose Boulez on DGG, along with the Kubelik on DGG: in the latter I recall the singing as top-rate and the excitement in the finale is rarely matched.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2008, 07:06:21 AM
Quote from: paulb on January 29, 2008, 02:27:59 PM
Mike i detect a  bit of disingenious in your "not in 30 yrs". Don't you think its time to move on?
Let me ask you, what do you think about Berg, Schonberg, Webern? as compared to mahler?
Personally i find more excitment and interest  in Webern's short works in  chamber for soprano/piano than a  1.5 hour Mahler sym.

Well I believe Mike is not being disingenuous. In my case it's been over forty years with no loss of interest in Mahler's music. How can one lose interest? To reference a famous Mahler quote, his music contains the entire world. It's complex and contains every human emotion (not just bitterness, despair and pained stoicism like Pettersson's). I also love the composers you love. I've been listening to Pettersson since the early 70s and own every work that's been recorded. I bought my first Second Viennese School recording in 1966 when I was 17 . My collection contains much Schnittke. I'm familar with the composers you love the most and I have a hard time imagining their music without Mahler's example and lead. I believe Mahler was the beginning of the 20th century, the beginning of our modern world, not the culmination of the old Romantic century. He's as relevant today, perhaps more relevant, than he was a hundred years ago.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2008, 07:13:26 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 30, 2008, 07:03:06 AM
On the "Resurrection" list: RCA, in the early 1970's, had a great recording with Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra, which rattled the heavens.

I believe you. I wish there were a recording of Ormandy's Cleveland Orchestra performance. It was overwhelming...at least in memory. Bernstein conducted a Resurrection in Cleveland too. 1970. Unfortunately I was not home then but was in far off climes keeping the world safe from the Red Threat.  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on February 01, 2008, 11:07:48 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2008, 06:22:41 AM
Below are the Resurrections I own. My desert island trio are highlighted. Coincidentally, they're all with the Wiener Philharmoniker. Kaplan simply gets everything right (the result of long years of exclusive study and conducting of this symphony). Maazel gets everything wrong. He's too slow with tempos pulled like taffy; ultra interventionist to an extent even Lenny didn't dare. Perverse it may be but I find it a stunning, fascinating performance. Boulez makes the symphony sound like part of the 20th century instead of the 19th.

Special jury prize goes to an underdog: Slatkin and St.Louis. Telarc's sonics are stunning. The concluding pages have never sounded better with clearly differentiated chorus and orchestra, a prominent organ, percussion, and bells that sound like real church bells, not anvils. Kathleen Battle and the veteran Maureen Forrester (heard her thirty-five years ago in Cleveland when Ormandy conducted the Resurrection) are my favorite soloists.

I like Bernstein's DG performance too. I almost love it...but I think he saps the energy out of the choral peroration with a tempo that is just too slow. He loses the rhythmic thrust and robs the music of its emotion. I'm with Lenny all the way...up until that point just before the end when things, to my ears, fall apart.

BERNSTEIN/LSO
BERNSTEIN/NY PHIL (SONY)
BERNSTEIN/NY PHIL (DG)
SINOPOLI/PHILHARMONIA
KAPLAN/LSO
KAPLAN/WP
WALTER/COLUMBIA SO
SEGERSTAM/DANISH NAT RADIO
BOULEZ/WP
BERTINI/KÖLNER RSO
MAAZEL/WP
SLATKIN/ST LOUIS
TENNSTEDT/LPO
SOLTI/LSO
NEUMANN/CZECH PHIL
LEVI/ATLANTA
FRIED/BERLINER STAATSKAPELLE
KLEMPERER/PHILHARMONIA
MEHTA/WP
HAITINK/CONCERTGEBOUW

Sarge

Thanks for sharing with us your list, Sarge. I have almost all of those, except for Fried/berliner staatskapelle and the Neumann/CPO. Are they rare? I don't hear them being talked about much.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2008, 04:35:29 AM
Quote from: Nande ya nen? on February 01, 2008, 11:07:48 PM
Thanks for sharing with us your list, Sarge. I have almost all of those, except for Fried/berliner staatskapelle and the Neumann/CPO. Are they rare? I don't hear them being talked about much.

Other than a few offers from Amazon sellers, I believe the Neumann is only available now as part of this box set:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/MahComNeu.jpg)

The Oskar Fried Resurrection is an important historical document, being the first complete recording of any Mahler symphony (1924). The sound quality of this acoustic recording is ghastly though; it requires tolerance and imagination to fill in the blanks. It's available from several sources, including this box of historical performances (Mengelberg 4, Walter 5, 9, Das Lied, etc) and Naxos:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/MahlerHist.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/0636943115220.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: longears on February 02, 2008, 05:04:50 AM
Quote from: Symphonien on January 25, 2008, 03:21:05 AM
Has anyone heard the Boulez 8th yet?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RgkQtpGtL._AA240_.jpg)
Yes, but I'm not ready to offer an opinion.  I only recently bought it and have heard it once, with divided attention due to several interruptions.  The 8th is the only Mahler symphony that I've not yet learned to enjoy...however, my wife, who usually doesn't care for Mahler at all, said that she thought it was beautiful and liked it very much! 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: rubio on February 02, 2008, 07:18:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2008, 04:35:29 AM
It's available from several sources, including this box of historical performances (Mengelberg 4, Walter 5, 9, Das Lied, etc) and Naxos:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/MahlerHist.jpg)

Sarge

I noted that you thought the sound of the Mengelberg 4 in this box set was quite OK. Have you heard any other transfers of this recording so you've had the chance to compare? I really like that perfomance and Jo Vincent's voice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2008, 02:12:40 PM
Quote from: rubio on February 02, 2008, 07:18:39 AM
I noted that you thought the sound of the Mengelberg 4 in this box set was quite OK. Have you heard any other transfers of this recording so you've had the chance to compare? I really like that perfomance and Jo Vincent's voice.

I've only heard the Walter Das Lied, Fried 2 and Mengelberg 4 so far. I'll try to hear the rest soon. I'll post my impressions here.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Symphonien on February 02, 2008, 11:10:51 PM
Quote from: longears on February 02, 2008, 05:04:50 AM
Yes, but I'm not ready to offer an opinion.  I only recently bought it and have heard it once, with divided attention due to several interruptions.  The 8th is the only Mahler symphony that I've not yet learned to enjoy...however, my wife, who usually doesn't care for Mahler at all, said that she thought it was beautiful and liked it very much! 

Yes, I'm not a big fan of the 8th yet either but am hoping that if it's a good recording, the Boulez may change my mind.

By the way, does anyone know if they're planning to release Boulez's Mahler in a box set in the near future? I don't have any of the individual releases yet and am wondering if it would be worth waiting for this or not?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on February 03, 2008, 10:26:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2008, 04:35:29 AM
Other than a few offers from Amazon sellers, I believe the Neumann is only available now as part of this box set:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/MahComNeu.jpg)

The Oskar Fried Resurrection is an important historical document, being the first complete recording of any Mahler symphony (1924). The sound quality of this acoustic recording is ghastly though; it requires tolerance and imagination to fill in the blanks. It's available from several sources, including this box of historical performances (Mengelberg 4, Walter 5, 9, Das Lied, etc) and Naxos:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/MahlerHist.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/0636943115220.jpg)

Sarge

It's ok, I like my Mahler fried  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: longears on February 07, 2008, 08:36:26 PM
Quote from: Symphonien on February 02, 2008, 11:10:51 PM
Yes, I'm not a big fan of the 8th yet either but am hoping that if it's a good recording, the Boulez may change my mind.

By the way, does anyone know if they're planning to release Boulez's Mahler in a box set in the near future? I don't have any of the individual releases yet and am wondering if it would be worth waiting for this or not?
This is probably my favorite cycle, along with Kubelik.  I like Boulez's clarity and restraint--Mahler's so over-the-top to begin with that wallowing in his excesses usually strikes me as maudlin.  After a more careful hearing of the 8th tonight, I still dislike the bombast of much of Part I, but Boulez's team carries it off well enough, if you like that sort of thing.  Where this symphony and this recording really shine is in most of Part II, the Faust scene.  To my ears this is magnificent, with beautiful playing from the orchestra and lovely singing by all--except for the bass, Robert Holl, whose tone I don't like and whose pitch seems off throughout the Pater profundus.  The ending, of course, gets a bit bombastic again for my tastes, but I don't fault the performance for that.   In short, it seems to me a very good recording of a very flawed symphony.  YMMV.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: drogulus on February 09, 2008, 08:27:10 AM


     Both Kubeliks are great, IMO.

(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5539/mahler8kubelikef5.jpg)      (http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8611/mahler8xl7.jpg)

     The Audite is a live performance with (mostly) the same forces that made the studio recording on DG.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Symphonien on February 10, 2008, 09:43:42 PM
Quote from: longears on February 07, 2008, 08:36:26 PM
This is probably my favorite cycle, along with Kubelik.  I like Boulez's clarity and restraint--Mahler's so over-the-top to begin with that wallowing in his excesses usually strikes me as maudlin.  After a more careful hearing of the 8th tonight, I still dislike the bombast of much of Part I, but Boulez's team carries it off well enough, if you like that sort of thing.  Where this symphony and this recording really shine is in most of Part II, the Faust scene.  To my ears this is magnificent, with beautiful playing from the orchestra and lovely singing by all--except for the bass, Robert Holl, whose tone I don't like and whose pitch seems off throughout the Pater profundus.  The ending, of course, gets a bit bombastic again for my tastes, but I don't fault the performance for that.   In short, it seems to me a very good recording of a very flawed symphony.  YMMV.  ;)

Thanks a lot for the review longears! I will probably wait to see if Boulez's Mahler will be released in a box set, in which case I will surely buy it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: longears on February 11, 2008, 04:57:03 AM
FWIW, I did some comparison listening yesterday of sections with a few other recordings, then returned to Boulez's 8th.  This third time through I was swept away by the music, the pacing of the performance, the beauty of the vocalists and instrumental soloists, and the sound quality of the recording.  Once again I'm discovering that an ambitious work by a great composer more than repays the time and effort required for me to make more than a nodding acquaintance with it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 10, 2008, 02:55:00 PM
I like piano transcriptions; amongst my favourites is Liszt's spectacular take on Beethoven's 9th. Not all are a success. There is a dirge-like four hand adaptation of the Brahms Requiem. Here is one that falls between these two extremes.

Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde: Brigitte Fassbaender, Thomas Moser, Cyprien Katsaris.

I was blind listening and soon into the first song, I could tell that this was not the piano reduction/vocal score I have. It is more complex; but also at points, the melodies that are passed amongst the orchestra seem to disappear momentarily. On reading the linear notes, I discovered that the version is by Mahler himself and does indeed have noticeable differences from the published orchestral score. There are several jolts as the vocal lines go in a different direction now and then.

Whose conception is it when we get a performance without a conductor? No one suggests that Klemperer's recording is a collaboration with Christa Ludwig. It is always discussed in terms of what Klemperer is doing with the shape of the piece. But here, I expect there is more consensus. The speeds are sane, no extremes.

The voices are all the more exposed and where there is strain, there is no submerging it into the textures, it is painfully there. The recording was made in 1990, already Fassbaender's voice is loosening and sustained notes bring out a pronounced beat. Moser would struggle considerably up against an orchestra and his top notes are at the limit of his range and attained through willpower. All this sounds somewhat negative; but there is a lot of pleasure to be had.

There is an intimacy and a deep concentration. The singers can mostly be heard as equal partners rather than one to many. Each song goes well and Fassbaender continually compells attention, able to fine her tone to a beautiful thread. 'Am Ufer' is especially successful on the piano, the percussive effects when the riders splash through the water. Although fast, that section is not rushed.

Moser comes off best in his second song, delicate, ironic.

Although the first song can sound like an epic, it is really the tenor's last song that is the most difficult with a generally high tessetura.

The kernel of the cycle is the final song; if it is a flop, the entire performance is lost. Here, Fassbaender and Katsaris work hand in glove. There is not the ebb and flow of an orchestral version. Nor are there the telling silences of the full version. But it is varied in tone and the long instrumental middle section is done with repeated chording producing a hypnotic effect. Kubelik turns this into an entire compressed symphony, but the piano provides something different, not lesser.

At the end, it fades rather than the sound melting, the percussive piano cannot emulate that disintegration of a soundworld. But it is ultimately moving with the singer managing to pull off diminuendos into nothingness, yet still singing.

So, more than a curiosity, less than the full experience.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: samuel on March 11, 2008, 08:23:09 AM
i'm pretty much a mahler n00b... i started listening to mahler's symphonies a little while back but i just couldn't really get into them until recently when i finally found out what my problem was - i was listening to extremely long, over-romanticized interpretations that didn't really suit my listening style/boredom tolerance. i guess i understand mahler's music much better when it is interpreted in a more "classical" style (e.g. Szell's 6th and Reiner's 4th) so i was wondering if anyone has any recommendations based on what i just said if that makes any sense lol...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 11, 2008, 09:14:52 AM
If you are prepared to accept that Das Lied is a symphony of sorts; then Klemperer or Boulez would possibly suit you.

In fact Boulez may be someone whose Symphonic cycle might be your cup of tea. Certainly not at the romantic extreme, some are almost severely classical in approach. Have a look on the web for reviews of his Mahler.

Some may be here...
http://www.classicstoday.com/search.asp

Or here
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/classrev.htm

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on March 11, 2008, 09:27:00 AM
Quote from: knight on March 11, 2008, 09:14:52 AM
If you are prepared to accept that Das Lied is a symphony of sorts; then Klemperer or Boulez would possibly suit you.

In fact Boulez may be someone whose Symphonic cycle might be your cup of tea. Certainly not at the romantic extreme, some are almost severely classical in approach. Have a look on the web for reviews of his Mahler.

Some may be here...
http://www.classicstoday.com/search.asp

Or here
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/classrev.htm

Mike

Yes, I second Mike's suggestion for Boulez, who conducts Mahler as if x-raying the scores--with often quite interesting results. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 11, 2008, 01:41:31 PM
Samuel,

To follow Mike's and Bruce's recommendations, you can have a taster of Boulez on Mahler's 2nd there :

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2599.msg74870.html#msg74870 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2599.msg74870.html#msg74870)

great performance indeed.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: samuel on March 11, 2008, 03:45:05 PM
thank you ill def have to check out boulez  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on March 31, 2008, 09:42:40 AM
May I put in a word for the Gielen box set on Hänssler Classic?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fV-LCrtqL._SS500_.jpg)

I finally got my hands on it recently, and am tempted to call it the most all-round accomplished Mahler box set I've come across, bar none!

Particularly certain symphonies, like the 2nd, are superbly done indeed. And there's not a recording in there that's less than "very good".

(In my opinion, of course. But I really was impressed - much further than even from the excellent Bertini set, on EMI.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2008, 10:27:16 AM
Quote from: Renfield on March 31, 2008, 09:42:40 AM
May I put in a word for the Gielen box set on Hänssler Classic?

I finally got my hands on it recently, and am tempted to call it the most all-round accomplished Mahler box set I've come across, bar none!

Particularly certain symphonies, like the 2nd, are superbly done indeed. And there's not a recording in there that's less than "very good".

(In my opinion, of course. But I really was impressed - much further than even from the excellent Bertini set, on EMI.)

I remember papy being very impressed by the Second, too. I am intrigued.

making mental note
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on March 31, 2008, 08:36:32 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 31, 2008, 09:42:40 AM
May I put in a word for the Gielen box set on Hänssler Classic?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fV-LCrtqL._SS500_.jpg)



Mouthwatering, that is! I have preferred turning to individual performances rather than sets, but that is a set there I definitely want.

I absolutely adore his 5th, I have a great many but his approach is stunning, and the playing is fantastic in great sound, very nuanced.

Now how much does that set run, and where could I find it...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Symphonien on March 31, 2008, 11:32:20 PM
Hmm... I was considering that, but I think I'll buy a few individual releases instead since they include some very enticing couplings not in the box set including Kurtag's Stele, Schoenberg's Kol Nidre, Boulez's Rituel: In Memoriam Bruno Maderna as well as an orchestral version of his Notations, Berg's Three Pieces, part of Schubert's unfinished 10th... to name the ones that appeal to me most. Above all though, I am very interested in hearing Kurtag's Stele, and the only other recording available is Abbado's which is much more expensive and comes on a single disc of 44 minutes. Not to mention Gielen's comes with what I hear is a great recording of one my favourite symphonies!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on April 01, 2008, 12:51:25 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 31, 2008, 10:27:16 AM
I remember papy being very impressed by the Second, too. I am intrigued.

making mental note

Damn right I was, and still am !! ...  ;D .. I have had that boxset in my shopping trolley ever since i bought his resurrection...i just need to make a mental note to spend my money on it  ;)

Greta, not sure about prices on the US side of the pond, but the set can be had new for €89.99 + shipping on JPC, cheaper there than Amazon UK.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 01, 2008, 02:33:09 PM
Quote from: papy on April 01, 2008, 12:51:25 PM
Damn right I was, and still am !! ...  ;D .. I have had that boxset in my shopping trolley ever since i bought his resurrection...i just need to make a mental note to spend my money on it  ;)

Greta, not sure about prices on the US side of the pond, but the set can be had new for €89.99 + shipping on JPC, cheaper there than Amazon UK.



I got it for around €75 + shipping from Amazon.de, if I remember correctly. :)

And do buy it! "Nuanced", like Greta observed, and incredibly well-thought-out readings, superbly executed (if with a very few orchestral slips - I counted 3 in the entire "Resurrection"); in great sound...

It very much might be the only Mahler set I have that does not contain one performance that is in any way substandard, as I hinted above: at its "worst", it's "the thinking man's Mahler" when a more forceful approach could also have worked.

And at its best, it is simply definitive. I really don't think I've heard the 2nd Symphony more "just right". And it's not only the second.


Have I convinced those on the brink? So I hope. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on April 01, 2008, 09:23:16 PM
God Dudamel's M5 is horrible, there's no excitement or forward drive from the orchestra at all...it's all one piece of very boring and long background music under his baton. The playing level of his youth orchestra is remarkable, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on April 07, 2008, 10:07:24 AM
Any opinions on this:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/ANDRCD9033.jpg)

Symphonies Nos. 7 & 9 and Das Lied von der Erde

Grace Hoffman - Contralto
Ernst Haefliger - Tenor

Radio Orchestra Baden-Baden, Kölner Rundfunk Orchestra / Hans Rosbaud

Mahler's Symphonies No. 7 and No. 9 conducted by Hans Rosbaud Coupled with Mahler's symphonic song cycle "Lied von der Erde" with Grace Hoffman and Ernst Haefliger.

Recordings from 1954 and 1957

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2008, 11:53:44 AM
I am at last listening to Gielen's Second - outstanding.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 07, 2008, 02:39:09 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 07, 2008, 11:53:44 AM
I am at last listening to Gielen's Second - outstanding.

Isn't it? ;D

I'm glad more people are getting to know this Mahler cycle; truly a stupendous achievement, on Gielen's part.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2008, 02:55:55 PM
Quote from: Renfield on April 07, 2008, 02:39:09 PM
Isn't it? ;D

I'm glad more people are getting to know this Mahler cycle; truly a stupendous achievement, on Gielen's part.

I just discovered/realized eClassical has most of the Gielen Mahler symphonies... Any favourites?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on April 07, 2008, 03:18:20 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 07, 2008, 02:55:55 PM
I just discovered/realized eClassical has most of the Gielen Mahler symphonies... Any favourites?

7
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2008, 03:33:07 PM
Quote from: Drasko on April 07, 2008, 03:18:20 PM
7

Then I'll know what to do. Apart from the fact the Seventh has been a perennial favourite of mine.

(I'm almost a 'Veteran Member' and decided to become a 'Silver Subscriber'...)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 07, 2008, 04:19:10 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 07, 2008, 02:55:55 PM
I just discovered/realized eClassical has most of the Gielen Mahler symphonies... Any favourites?

Apart from the 2nd? The 7th, as Drasko said, also the 5th, 6th and 9th for me; the 8th as well, if you like Mahler's 8th.

(I like Mahler's 8th, but a lot of people seem not to with quite some vehemence, and this is certainly not a recording to start with. ;))


Wait, did I just recommend all the cycle but the 1st and 3rd? I'm telling you, it's that good! :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on April 07, 2008, 04:37:35 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on April 07, 2008, 03:33:07 PM
Then I'll know what to do. Apart from the fact the Seventh has been a perennial favourite of mine.

(I'm almost a 'Veteran Member' and decided to become a 'Silver Subscriber'...)




I'm feeling you here. I've been there. It was nice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on April 07, 2008, 08:53:45 PM
Anyone have a good M3 finale to recommend? Just the finale...who does it well? I have Abbado/BPO but find it too bland, Bernstein/NYPO but find it dynamically compressed, Kubelik/BRSO but find it too brisk, Bertini but find it too emotionless.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 07, 2008, 09:24:44 PM
The best Mahler 3 finale I've ever heard was from Abbado and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra, in their Proms performance last summer (which I listened to via BBC3, online).

I do realise that's not of much help, but I thought I'd make a point of how good that was. ;D


Have you tried Abbado with the VPO? Boulez? Haitink?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2008, 09:56:57 PM
Quote from: Renfield on April 07, 2008, 04:19:10 PM
Apart from the 2nd? The 7th, as Drasko said, also the 5th, 6th and 9th for me; the 8th as well, if you like Mahler's 8th.

(I like Mahler's 8th, but a lot of people seem not to with quite some vehemence, and this is certainly not a recording to start with. ;))


Wait, did I just recommend all the cycle but the 1st and 3rd? I'm telling you, it's that good! :P

Well, that's the original blanket endorsement, and no mistake! Point taken...  ;) (And I like the Eighth, though they don't have it on eClassical...)

Quote from: Haffner on April 07, 2008, 04:37:35 PM
I'm feeling you here. I've been there. It was nice.

You are aristocracy (and sound like it!) And Harry is God.

I'll join you soon (2 posts to go).

Ah, no mountains left to climb...

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on April 07, 2008, 10:27:40 PM
Quote from: Perfect FIFTH on April 07, 2008, 08:53:45 PM
Anyone have a good M3 finale to recommend? Just the finale...who does it well?

Segerstam (Danish National RSO) does it extremely well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on April 08, 2008, 08:28:58 AM
I enjoy the Litton-conducted 3rd. Alot.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on April 10, 2008, 11:18:44 PM
Quote from: Perfect FIFTH on April 07, 2008, 08:53:45 PM
Anyone have a good M3 finale to recommend? Just the finale...who does it well? I have Abbado/BPO but find it too bland, Bernstein/NYPO but find it dynamically compressed, Kubelik/BRSO but find it too brisk, Bertini but find it too emotionless.

I prefer, most of all, the live Boulez M3 from the '07 Mahler-Zyklus. His studio WP set isn't bad, but I wouldn't want to be without the Chailly record.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on April 11, 2008, 07:22:46 PM
Thanks for all the above recommendations, I'll definitely check them out. :) I re-listened to the Abbado/BPO, but I don't know why I just keep coming back to the Bernstein/NYPO. Maybe it's because of the latter conductor's famed soul-stirring music making...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 24, 2008, 06:09:50 AM
I have bought the new LSO/Gergiev Mahler 6th. It is poles apart from the Mackerras version I have. Gergiev plays up the extremes, both in repose and drama. The Andante is played as the second movement and there are two hammer blows, though even without the third one, the final moments are dramatic and satisfying.

This is seemingly a live performance, there is plenty of adrenalin and thrust. The sound is close and fairly dry. Strings are silken when needed and there sounds to be plenty of detail within the soundpicture, for sure, more than the BBC managed for Mackerras, though the first hammer blow is almost lost within the orchestral textures.

Gergiev does bring balm after a gutwrenching first movement and he is not afraid to have the woodwind or strings sound acidic. After one point in the final movement, I thought we were lurching from bitterness into Rachmaninoff. It is exciting music making, possibly even on the hysterical side of the Mahler interpretative spectrum.

His version of the 1st is supposedly available, though I could not find it in London this week, but I am keen to hear what he does with it.

Initially, when Gergiev signed on with the LSO, the news was that he could not record with them due to contractual commitments; these apparently have been solved.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2008, 06:28:52 AM
Quote from: knight on May 24, 2008, 06:09:50 AM
I have bought the new LSO/Gergiev Mahler 6th....

Good review, Mike, and very persuasive. Makes me want to buy another Mahler 6...damn you to hell  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 24, 2008, 06:37:27 AM
Haha...as I was once taught; if in doubt, take as a compliment.

I know Gergiev has had very mixed reviews for the London Mahler cycle so far. I would be interested to hear one of the supposedly less coherent interpretations to see what I would make of it.

Awaiting me are the initial three Mahler symphonies on DVD with Lennie presiding. That was prompted by enthusiasm here. I need to choose my time carefully for commandeering the TV. At the moment, we have all got the West Wing bug and are going through the entire lot on DVD at different speeds. But Mahler needs to win out....soon.

Mike

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on May 24, 2008, 08:29:20 AM
Mike,

The LSO site lists the release of the 1st for May 26th. Samples can heard there too :

http://lso.co.uk/detailedrecordinginfo&showdetailstype=recording&detailID=185 (http://lso.co.uk/detailedrecordinginfo&showdetailstype=recording&detailID=185)

Papy

PS : Should i mention that they do Mahler ringtones too ? 0:)

Edit : t'is always better with a link  :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 24, 2008, 09:33:04 AM
Papy, Thanks, I was sure it was around and I am also sure I went to the wrong stores. One, that is right beside English National Opera has always specialised in vocal music. It used nevertheless to stock all the main new issues whether vocal or not. Policy changes, instead they have stripped out all music that is not either vocal or ballet and have filled the shelves with foreign language films...an obvious linkage there.

Mike

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2008, 12:16:09 PM
Quote from: knight on May 24, 2008, 06:09:50 AM
Gergiev does bring balm after a gutwrenching first movement and he is not afraid to have the woodwind or strings sound acidic. After one point in the final movement, I thought we were lurching from bitterness into Rachmaninoff.

Brilliant.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2008, 07:34:18 PM
Rattle's 2nd is kind of weird...why is the chromatic descension at the end of the Totenfeier so slow? And the finale sounds underpowered...give me my Mehta and Bernstein back, thank you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 24, 2008, 08:42:57 PM
Quote from: Auferstehung on May 24, 2008, 07:34:18 PM
Rattle's 2nd is kind of weird...why is the chromatic descension at the end of the Totenfeier so slow? And the finale sounds underpowered...give me my Mehta and Bernstein back, thank you.

In two words: different aesthetic.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on May 24, 2008, 10:14:01 PM
Quote from: Renfield on April 07, 2008, 04:19:10 PM
Wait, did I just recommend all the cycle but the 1st and 3rd?

What's wrong with these two?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 24, 2008, 10:45:14 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 24, 2008, 10:14:01 PM
What's wrong with these two?

A slightly "aurally muddled" first, and a and maybe overly idiomatic third.

They're fine performances, just not top recommendations next to the really good firsts and thirds; whereas the other performances in the cycle all have a claim to that title. (In my opinion, obviously.) :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 25, 2008, 04:49:14 AM
Quote from: Auferstehung on May 24, 2008, 07:34:18 PM
Rattle's 2nd is kind of weird...why is the chromatic descension at the end of the Totenfeier so slow?
slow?!
remind me not to listen....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: rubio on May 25, 2008, 06:09:06 AM
Quote from: Auferstehung on May 24, 2008, 07:34:18 PM
Rattle's 2nd is kind of weird...why is the chromatic descension at the end of the Totenfeier so slow? And the finale sounds underpowered...give me my Mehta and Bernstein back, thank you.

I think that detail is quite cool for a change 8).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 25, 2008, 07:12:34 AM
You are referring to the EMI recording. It is not altogether an accurate reflection of Rattle's live performances; during which he changed many details and was inclined to go with the moment. For example, I heard him hold the extended drumroll until it became unbearable, the tension palpable, the release a brilliant dramatic stroke. But that is not a detail that is likely to work on a recording and endlessly repeated. The ending was never underpowered when I heard it.

Of course, this is only of nugatory interest, in that the recording is all that can now be heard. But even at the point it was committed to disc, some noticeable details were still being rethought.

Incidentally, I see nothing wrong in the end of the Totenfeier being slow...within the context of that particular fix on the piece.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 25, 2008, 05:33:59 PM
Been meaning to post in this thread for a while, as I had the great pleasure to hear live Mahler for the first time recently! The 2nd Symphony, by the Houston Symphony under MD Hans Graf.

Mahler live is sooo much better and such a different experience than on recordings. It seemed like there was so much going on all the time, by the finale it was sensory overload. It was totally overwhelming, and luckily it was a totally outstanding performance.

Where to start, gah....one thing we noticed first were the three LARGE tubular bells, we got a kick out of the percussionist that had to climb like 20 ft in the air to hit them, we joked he needed hazard pay!  ;D

There were brass players constantly filing in and out to do offstage work, and that was certainly impressive - the way that sounds live is really special, sometimes it was doors open, sometimes half closed. It struck me how very difficult the brass writing is in the Finale, there are notable spots in which the horns/trumpet have to hit high notes softly and exposed and that was done extremely well. There is a section about halfway through the finale, where there is a crazy random offstage band, going on while the strings play this very sad theme, and then that all culminates in a big apocalypse. What in the world does all that mean exactly? That is very chill-inducing!

The choir and singers were awesome live. When the choir entered, they were still sitting down, and were so soft I couldn't even see their mouths moving and barely realized they were singing. It was so eerie and affecting! The soprano began in the choir, first we heard her, and then she rose, kind of blossomed out of the texture, then she went offstage and walked through the 1st violins to the front to finish. That was amusingly precarious for her, as the strings were sandwiched in quite tightly and there were people almost hanging off the stage with all the sections swelled to capacity.

Other random cool stuff live: Mahler's orchestration!!! And the effect it had on the audience...they were so quiet during all the brass/flute solos in the middle of the Finale, you could feel the tension in the air. He creates such a surreal and haunting atmosphere there! Also the 2nd mvmt extended pizz section, looking around the audience seemed totally fascinated, like WTH are they doing?  ;) That is a very unique sound live.

There is so much detail that popped out that had before kind of passed me by, I guess we humans are known to listen visually, and watching the conductor and musicians drew my attention to some lines and entrances I hadn't ever focused on much. Mahler's unique choices of instruments sound magical, notably, the woodwind writing, all the "nature" doodlings in the woodwinds were especially great, the way they float up over the ensemble. And the beginning of the Finale!! Where the whole flute section is blowing away on piccolos, that was just amazing live. The way that sound rides on top of the huge orchestra and his hugely orchestrated chords was awesome to hear (feel!)

The immense sheer power and hysteria of the writing really gets to you in live performance, much more acutely than on recording. Sometimes I really felt like supernatural things were being called forth. :o The ending is so magnificent, I don't know why but the last mournful violin solos got me and my friend and we both ended up with crocodile tears down the face during the last few minutes. It was quite neat, the flood of people coming out looked like they'd been run over a bit!

If that hadn't been a Sunday performance and it weren't so far away, I would've gone back again...it was too much to take in for one sitting!

Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience? :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on May 25, 2008, 11:26:39 PM
Quote from: knight on May 25, 2008, 07:12:34 AM
You are referring to the EMI recording. It is not altogether an accurate reflection of Rattle's live performances; during which he changed many details and was inclined to go with the moment. For example, I heard him hold the extended drumroll until it became unbearable, the tension palpable, the release a brilliant dramatic stroke. But that is not a detail that is likely to work on a recording and endlessly repeated. The ending was never underpowered when I heard it.

Of course, this is only of nugatory interest, in that the recording is all that can now be heard. But even at the point it was committed to disc, some noticeable details were still being rethought.

Incidentally, I see nothing wrong in the end of the Totenfeier being slow...within the context of that particular fix on the piece.

Mike

I'm sure his is a good M2, but the interpretation is just not for me...that's just a difference in taste, that's what it is. :) I enjoy Bernstein/DG or Mehta/Decca Legends more, at least for the Totenfeier.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 25, 2008, 11:57:03 PM
Oh yes, I agree. A matter of taste.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 26, 2008, 01:36:01 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 25, 2008, 05:33:59 PM

Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience? :)


The 6th Symphony, to date my only live Mahler experience: Markus Stenz, with the Gürzenich Orchestra.

I can second your comments on how amazing Mahler's orchestration sounds live, and Stenz's reading was also solid, sombre and impressively overwhelming (as it should be), at every turn.

To date, I consider it my second most precious live musical (orchestral) experience, next to hearing Ein Heldenleben from the Dresden Staatskapelle under Luisi. And I hear Stenz will be at the Proms this year with Mahler's 5th! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 26, 2008, 02:47:00 AM
Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience?

I had just joined the Scottish National Orchestra Chorus, I was 18. The week I joined they were in a performance of Mahler's 8th Symphony in Glasgow conducted by Alexander Gibson. Obviously, I could not be in the performance, but I went in with the chorus for the final rehearsals and sat in the amphitheatre, then I went in early with them for the performance and stood right at the front of the Prom area as close to Heather Harper as possible. The soloists and orchestra were on the flat, so I was on the same level as that glorious soaring soprano voice. She really was a world class singer.

The whole experience was a revelation to me, a complete knockout. The tenor soloist was extremely fine, Vilim Pibril. Felicity Palmer was another of the soloists, this was when she was still a soprano. Alfreda Hodgeson and Helen Watts were two more soloists.

It was shown on TV and my mother, who knew as much about music as I know about astrophysics, asked; now I was in the choir when was it my turn to stand at the front on my own?

It was a great introduction to Mahler and although I have no idea whether it was a good performance, it was certainly memorable for me. My ears were ringing for hours afterwards having Heather Harper sing full pelt about 12 feet from me.

I have subsequently been in at least half a dozen Mahler 8s, some good some so/so, which means, poor really. It is a piece that either comes off well or fails.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 26, 2008, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: knight on May 26, 2008, 02:47:00 AM
Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience?
The 5th Symphony, played by the Orlando Phil.
I don't remember it being bad, they just needed a larger string section just as the guy in the newspaper wrote.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2008, 05:42:56 PM
Quote from: Greta on May 25, 2008, 05:33:59 PM
Been meaning to post in this thread for a while, as I had the great pleasure to hear live Mahler for the first time recently!...

Wonderful write up, Greta. Your enthusiasm is contagious.

My first live Mahler was in 1967 at Severance Hall in Cleveland, the Sixth performed by the Cleveland Orchestra, George Szell conducting. After 40 years details are hazy but I think they used the same hammer that Abbado used in Cleveland five years later. I hitchhiked home from Ohio University, skipping Thursday and Friday classes. I sat in the cheapest section, last row of the balcony. I'd never heard the Sixth before. I didn't know what to expect. The music devastated me. When it was over, I could not understand why anyone was clapping....how anyone could clap pure tragedy. It was such desolating but truthful music. I still consider that performance (which was eventually released on LP then CD) one of the greatest I've ever heard: Szell's rather cool (classically restrained) first three movements fake us out, set us up for the kill: the most devastating, crushing final fortissimo chords on record.

My second live Mahler was a Szell/Cleveland performance of the Fourth at Blossom Music Center in 1968. Schwarzkopf was the soloist. I'm ashamed to say I didn't enjoy it, finding it lightweight and even silly sounding in parts. The Fourth took me many years to warm to. I suppose it wasn't dark or dramatic enough for me...who knows. I don't understand that shallow youth at all ;D  (Drasko gave me this performance last year--I didn't ask where he'd gotten it; needless to say, I enjoy it a lot more now.)

My mission, defending the free world from godless communism, the red menace, prevented me from hearing what probably would have been life-altering perfornances in Cleveland and at Blossom had I been home in 1970 and not in Asia: Das Lied with Janet Baker, conducted by Szell and the Second conducted by Bernstein (Lenny told the Clevelanders at rehearsal, "You guys are so fucking good."). You know, the World Order probably wouldn't have altered much had I gone AWOL to hear those concerts. I should have ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on May 26, 2008, 08:32:35 PM
I wish to fly over to Lucerne to hear Abbado do Mahler before he, you know, leaves us for good. I'm still a Mahler virgin, gotta hear a live performance before I die.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Greta on May 28, 2008, 03:51:53 PM
Thanks for the stories all! Mike, can't beat being in your first Mahler!  ;D

You guys were talking about Rattle M2 - I think his live performances are more appealing than the EMI recording, though I still think it's excellent. There is one of he with the Philharmonia from the early 80s that is pretty hot, and then the great vid from his farewell CBSO concert, just outstanding IMO.

It is funny, I had uploaded that vid at YouTube, and was contacted by a couple of people who sang in the chorus on that. :) One guy, quite a young chorister at the time, described a similar experience to that of Mike's, said it was life-altering!

Sarge - haven't gotten to hear the 6th yet, but it is the 5th through 7th I am most wild about, and can't WAIT to hear, someday.

Man, I really love the 6th. I forget how much until I haven't heard it for a while (now listening!) I found the 6th pretty easy to get into for some reason, I think it's such a cool piece. Would it be wrong to say it's even groovy at times?  ;D

There are many classically oriented gestures, Beethoven comes to mind. The 5th and 6th still just absolutely astound me in the sheer brilliance of the writing, and perplex me too. Which I love! I have always heard a lot of Strauss in the 6th, in the high crying violin lines and especially the recurring major-minor brass declamation. The first and last movements actually feel like tone poems in essence, to me. They could practically stand on their own.

So, I finally got the new Philly 6th with Eschenbach, that's what I'm listening to. It's pretty nice, straightforward and energetic, and the playing is impressive, but the recorded sound is really strange. Very "live" and kind of dry, with a airy distance to the sound. Clarity is achieved at the expense of anything blending in the high register and especially the brass, which become very strident and overbalanced at times. It's an interesting performance, and good, but oh, I don't like Ondine's sound picture at all.  :P

I have to hear that Gergiev 6th...Mackerras and Boulez still stand as my favorites...and has anyone heard the new Jansons/RCO?! I have read some great things about it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 28, 2008, 03:59:34 PM
I had three live Mahler concerts last year being; 5,2 & 4.

The performance of #2 was the highlight of the year.

Simply awe inspiring music.

A friend sung in the choir and complained beforehand how she disliked Mahler and that he was too 'Teutonic'. After the performance she told me she'd changed her opinion  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on May 28, 2008, 04:10:38 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on May 28, 2008, 03:59:34 PM
I had three live Mahler concerts last year being; 5,2 & 4.

The performance of #2 was the highlight of the year.

Simply awe inspiring music.

A friend sung in the choir and complained beforehand how she disliked Mahler and that he was too 'Teutonic'. After the performance she told me she'd changed her opinion  :)

What orchestra, choir, and under who?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2008, 05:25:03 PM
Quote from: Greta on May 28, 2008, 03:51:53 PM
Man, I really love the 6th. I forget how much until I haven't heard it for a while (now listening!) I found the 6th pretty easy to get into for some reason, I think it's such a cool piece. Would it be wrong to say it's even groovy at times?  ;D

Not if it were 1967, the year I first heard the groovy Sixth  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 28, 2008, 10:44:57 PM
Greta,

You are spurring me on to getting to a real live concert. It is ages since I caught any Mahler. I was not in that Mahler 8th unfortunately, but almost was.....which of course does not count at all. What I did not say about the Rattle is that each time I heard him do the 2nd, I was in the choir, so I was also at the final rehearsals and able to  watch performances emerge. He would change things on the wing and he always did the concert from memory.

On one occasion he did lose the plot in the performance, it would only have been noticeable from our side, as the orchestra knew what they were doing and he quickly got back in the groove. (Almost groovy there.)

Best Mahler 8; might have been Boulez, though it did not feel that way from the inside of the performance, but subsequently I found a recording of the performance and it was pretty good. Worst Mahler 8, Leinsdorf, poor old guy was at sea and did ask that we lead him, which did not make for the most coherent performance. It was distinguished by a ferocious summer thunder storm that broke over the Cleveland summer venue during one of the filigree passages, that added the drama missing more generally from the evening.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2008, 03:21:57 AM
Quote from: knight on May 28, 2008, 10:44:57 PM
Worst Mahler 8, Leinsdorf...It was distinguished by a ferocious summer thunder storm that broke over the Cleveland summer venue...

A frequent happening at Blossom. The most amusing, and dramatic instance I experienced was during a Dvorak Seventh--not a thunderstorm but heat lightning's rumbling thunder that punctuated the quiet moments of the last movement. The natural percussion strokes were perfectly timed for maximum dramatic and musical impact. It really seemed as though God were sitting in the percussion section that evening, and his timing was perfect; it really fit the music ;D

Do you recall what year that was, Mike? I couldn't have been home that summer or I would have certainly attended that M8 concert.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2008, 06:30:38 AM
Quote from: Greta on May 28, 2008, 03:51:53 PM
Sarge - haven't gotten to hear the 6th yet, but it is the 5th through 7th I am most wild about, and can't WAIT to hear, someday....Mackerras and Boulez still stand as my favorites...

I've heard all the symphonies live, including the Tenth, but I've heard the Sixth live more often than any other. And you know I should have heard Boulez in Berlin last year but didn't notice that concert started at 4 PM instead of at 8 like the rest of the Staatkapelle's Mahler cycle. I napped through the performance, in a hotel room fifteen miles from the Philharmonie.  :'(

Oh, well, the tickets still make good bookmarks....$300 book marks  ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/maygmg/MahlerZyklusVI_699.jpg)

My next live Mahler will be in June. Järvi's conducting Britten's arrangement of second movement of the Third: "What the flowers told me" at the Alte Oper in Frankfurt. I'm looking forward to this concert. Besides the Mahler/Britten they're playing Berg's Altenberg-Lieder, five Strauss Lieder (Christine Schäfer) and Brahms Fourth. Later in the month Järvi's conducting Mahler 4 at Kloster Eberbach, an impressive monastery in the Rheingau: wine and Mahler. Perfect.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2008, 11:24:33 AM
Sarge, It was July of 1976. We were seemingly cultural ambassadors to the US in its bicentennial year. I had been looking forward to Leinsdorf as a highlight, but it just did not turn out that way. But there were plenty of highlights in other places.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 29, 2008, 11:33:41 AM
Quote from: knight on May 26, 2008, 02:47:00 AM
Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience?

Barring a memory lapse, I am 99% sure that my first live Mahler was in 1984, this performance (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F01E7DB1138F930A25752C0A962948260&scp=4&sq=Bernstein%20Mahler%20New%20York%20Philharmonic&st=cse) of the Second with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic (and from which the Deutsche Grammophon recording was made).  Needless to say, it was quite an overwhelming experience, one that brought tears to the eyes of many of us in the audience. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 29, 2008, 06:23:37 PM
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on May 28, 2008, 03:59:34 PM
I had three live Mahler concerts last year being; 5,2 & 4.

The performance of #2 was the highlight of the year.

Simply awe inspiring music.

A friend sung in the choir and complained beforehand how she disliked Mahler and that he was too 'Teutonic'. After the performance she told me she'd changed her opinion  :)

Quote from: Auferstehung on May 28, 2008, 04:10:38 PM
What orchestra, choir, and under who?

10/11/2006  #5  NZSO  Susanna Malkki Conductor [First time I've seen a female conductor]

09/03/2007  #2  NZSO + Chapman Tripp Opera Chorus [plus a massed choir of voices] Patricia Wright Soprano & Helen Medlyn Mezzo Soprano James Judd Conductor. Highlight of the year  :)

13/04/07  #4  NZSO  Kiri Te Kanawa Soprano  Lawrence Renes Conductor

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on May 29, 2008, 06:46:54 PM
Anyone heard Edo de Waart's Mahler? Apparently he did almost a full cycle with the HKPO since taking over as Musical Director in 2004, but I haven't had the opportunity to hear them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2008, 08:22:10 AM
Quote from: knight on May 29, 2008, 11:24:33 AM
Sarge, It was July of 1976. We were seemingly cultural ambassadors to the US in its bicentennial year. I had been looking forward to Leinsdorf as a highlight, but it just did not turn out that way. But there were plenty of highlights in other places.

Mike

I was definitely not in Ohio in July of '76. That was a hot summer in Europe. The German wine was outstanding...century wine, they call it (a vintage so good it happens only a few times per century). July was the month the future Mrs. Rock and I ruined her parents' garden while they were on holiday. We had more interesting things to do than water the garden ;D

Leinsdorf was a guest conductor often in Cleveland (he'd been the orchestra's music director between Rodzinski and Szell). Poor Leinsdorf...fate was cruel to him. One reason he was given the directorship is because he agreed to work for a bargain price. But shortly after he got the job, he was drafted! He spent most of his Cleveland tenure conducting army bands instead of his orchestra. Once Cleveland (the press, the audience, the patrons, the board) heard Szell conduct Beethoven, Leinsdorf was finished as director.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 30, 2008, 08:31:22 AM
It was a bit of a dispiriting experience really. He clearly could not organise the forces and I am pretty sure he was not always absolutely with us in the score as he was very erratic in giving us entries and for that matter signaling what he was wanting to the orchestra.

At one point, he said we ought to lead him, not him us....a curious idea, he certainly was not following me. I think the sopranos were the ones he was following.

Bizarrely we also then after the Mahler sang Mozart's Ave verum!

76 was when I got married, indeed the year of the drought in England. Our wedding prep was rather erratic. We decided in May to marry in August and I was singing in the US for almost the whole of July.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2008, 02:37:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2008, 08:22:10 AM
I was definitely not in Ohio in July of '76. That was a hot summer in Europe. The German wine was outstanding...century wine, they call it (a vintage so good it happens only a few times per century). July was the month the future Mrs. Rock and I ruined her parents' garden while they were on holiday. We had more interesting things to do than water the garden ;D

I remember that summer very well, too. It was the Bayreuth centenary, I was deep into Wagner and I came mentally of age then (15) and had a wonderful tryst, too - with my Muse...

Où sont les neiges d'antan?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 11:26:28 AM
Quote from: knight on May 30, 2008, 08:31:22 AM
76 was when I got married, indeed the year of the drought in England....

Yes, a drought too in Germany...hence the great wine (droughts concentrate the sugar in the grapes: less liquid but of a much higher quality) and hence the withering of her parents' vegetable garden.

Quote from: Jezetha on May 31, 2008, 02:37:45 AM
Où sont les neiges d'antan?

Indeed...where...

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on June 01, 2008, 02:10:59 PM
My first live Mahler experience may have been with Leinsdorf, too. I do remember I only saw him conduct the BP once in the early 80s, and that was the 1st. But I am not sure if that was the first live Mahler I heard.
Or maybe it was the 1st with Bertini and the BP (I also heard that with him and the WDRSO, but I am sure that was several years later, early 90s or so).
Or maybe the 2nd with Abbado and the ECYO (open air, in the Waldbühne in Berlin which is, well, a large open air location).
Or maybe the 5th with Abbado and the LSO.
Or maybe the 3rd with Mehta and the WP (in Vienna, on a school trip).
Or maybe the 3rd with Levine and the BP.
I am not sure. I do remember these are some of the earliest live Mahler performances I have heard, but I don't recall exactly when and in what order that was, apart from that it was in the early-mid 80s. I have heard so many Mahler performances since then it all blurs together in my memory although I do remember many outstanding individual performances clearly. Just not really exactly when that was.



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mn dave on June 13, 2008, 05:49:50 AM
It's interesting, at a brief scan, how many Mahler symphony box sets get five stars, or nearly so, at Amazon. Makes it rather hard to choose though--if you're basing your purchase on Amazon ratings. Which I'm not.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on June 13, 2008, 06:20:49 AM
Yes...I am changing my mind rather dramatically re - Boulez and his Mahler third...and the rest...it might in fact, after all my carping and degrading of it...it might in fact be the best set out there now that I'm giving it a VERY serious ear thanks to M forever. :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 15, 2008, 02:35:39 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on June 13, 2008, 06:20:49 AM
Yes...I am changing my mind rather dramatically re - Boulez and his Mahler third...and the rest...it might in fact, after all my carping and degrading of it...it might in fact be the best set out there now that I'm giving it a VERY serious ear thanks to M forever. :o
Ok, now that's M's queue to say that he's glad to have helped. ;)


Amazing how little I post here. I guess it'd help if i had several box sets and could discuss and compare them, right? Or else I'd be talking music theory which few would be interested in...


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on June 15, 2008, 04:35:28 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on June 15, 2008, 02:35:39 PM
Ok, now that's M's queue to say that he's glad to have helped. ;)


Amazing how little I post here. I guess it'd help if i had several box sets and could discuss and compare them, right? Or else I'd be talking music theory which few would be interested in...




Last Mahler I saw was couple of months ago, BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra in Glasgow City Halls doing Mahlers 4rth [EDIT:  See above, it wasn't the fourth which I've been sitting listening to for a few hours, it was the 5th.) under the direction of Robert Spano (of Atlanta SO).  Excellent stuff, especially from the trombones and horns.  A real treat from Spano, who keeps coming back to the BBCSSO for more.
I'm not changing my view that much on Boulez at all any more, checked a few other things out with some of his other recordings.  His third is indeed very good, and so is 9, but there's so much from three or four others that leave a lot to be desired.  I'm happy to have been put right on the third, though, but in the end, I would swap a Boulez Mahler for a Tennstedt or Abbado almost immediately.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on June 15, 2008, 04:44:44 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on June 15, 2008, 04:35:28 PM
Last Mahler I saw was last month, BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra in Glasgow City Halls doing Mahlers 4rth under the direction of Robert Spano (of Atlanta SO).  Excellent stuff, especially from the trombones and horns.

There are no trombones in Mahler's 4th.

Oops.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on June 15, 2008, 05:13:09 PM
 :-[My apologies, I have been listening to Mahlers fourth for the past two or three hours by different composers (including Boulez, Abbado and Solti) - so I've got crosswired.  Anyway, now edited, it was Mahlers 5th, I'll post the review I made which was previously published on another forum. :P

Here it is, not sure if this thread is the right place for it though.  Originally posted on CMM, minor edits.

Wed March 15th 7.30pm Glasgow City Halls., Scotland
Robert Spano BBC SSO
The Programme: Britten - Serenade for tenor, horn and strings
Mahler - 5th Symphony

The Players for Britten: Andrew Kennedy - Tenor, David Pyatt - Horn

The concert opened with Brittens' Serenade. This was not something I'd heard before, but after hearing it, it is something I WILL get. The Serenade contains 8 pieces, the first and last being played solo horn on natural harmonics. Pyatt, winner of the 1988 Young Musician of the Year, brings in the Serenade with intelligence and balance. Then the Orchestra starts up and Kennedy joins in with the Pastoral. His singing is clear and he stands quite erect throughout the performance, only wobbling his head occasionally, but he's enjoying it - unfortunately enjoying it for him seems to mean staring straight ahead and only sometimes finding enough in the poetic librettos to wobble. Still, he has a fine voice, his singing is beautiful, and all is well. He ends the Sonnet with its namesake, and his voice finishes it more than satisfactorily. The last piece, an offstage horn, is played beautifully and wistfully by Pyatt to end the Serenade. Plenty of applause, but somewhat belated, Spano stood wondering if anyone knew he had finished and near shrugged his shoulders before the clapping started. My hands were sore.

Next, the main event, Mahlers 5th. The Funeral March begins, and Spano looks like he knows where he's going. Elizabeth Layton, leader of the Orchestra, looks like she loves Mahler in a dreamy way, and I near fall in love with her too in a dreamy way.

The timpani are spot on, and Robert Spano gives it hell in the second movement, making sure the Orchestra keep in synch with his expressions and body movements, fleeing from first violins to double bass to absoloutley superb trumpet by Mark O'keefe, with passion from Spanos feet upward. This is quite in order as Mahler marked the movement to be played stormy, with vehemence.

The Scherzo third movement is a real tickler, Spano gives it the earthy folky feel it deserves, and it lives up to its title scherzo (literally 'Joke'), and the triangle is heard!

The famous Adagio fourth movement comes on with the conductor paying attention to the downbeats, and a magnificent weariness is born here, the World is just too much to take in, and the Orchestra under Spano lets us know that. There is scarcely a pause before Spano begins the fifth movement.

Many of the themes come together for the finale, the Adagio being prominent in this performance, and it is here we can hear (where Mahlers learning from Bachs scores) a fine balance of Polophony. There are melodies here not intertwined, but bouncing off each other in a coherent way, meeting and culminating in an expression of optimism and complete joy.

Noteworthy were Mark O'Keefe on trumpet, an absoloutley spellbinding job with no silly vibrato, David Flack (Horns), Simon Johnson and Philip Weldon (great Trombones).

My only problem with the entire performance was the Brass and Woodwind being one or two decibels louder than expected - Spano gave no let up in this and there was a little drowning going on. But then, that may be because of where I was sitting (in the cheap seats, above right of Orchestra) or the Hall acoustics - this was the only major flaw if one can call it that - it is Mahler, and some conductors (Solti et al.,) liked Mahler horns and trumpets etc to be loud as hell. Overall though, it was a superb performance, one I will remember, and Radio 3 rightly have recorded it for broadcast at a later date.

Well done Spano and the BBC SSO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 16, 2008, 12:29:33 AM
Thanks...a nice evocation of the live occasion. I think Spano is underrated. If you want any suggestions for a specific Britten recording, let me know.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 26, 2008, 07:15:29 PM
no, i wasn't searching for "mailer mania", thanks anyways  ::)


what does everyone think about this recording?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J8S8AM34L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
i got it from the library (different cover) and was pleasantly surprised. I see Bruce likes it.
Nice choices of tempi, balance of orchestration throughout. Everything is pretty crystal clear in the recording, too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on June 26, 2008, 07:47:44 PM
Overall, the best Mahler 5 I have ever heard on a recording. Great music making and meticulous attention to detail in a very coherent, thought-through concept.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 26, 2008, 09:06:27 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on June 26, 2008, 07:15:29 PM
what does everyone think about this recording?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J8S8AM34L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
i got it from the library (different cover) and was pleasantly surprised. I see Bruce likes it.
Nice choices of tempi, balance of orchestration throughout. Everything is pretty crystal clear in the recording, too.


Fine choice. One of my faves...




Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on June 26, 2008, 11:06:47 PM
Quote from: donwyn on June 26, 2008, 09:06:27 PM
Fine choice. One of my faves...

Ditto.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 27, 2008, 02:05:35 PM
cool!
Looks like the library knows how make a nice selection  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 27, 2008, 03:18:47 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on June 15, 2008, 05:13:09 PM

Wed March 15th 7.30pm Glasgow City Halls., Scotland
Robert Spano BBC SSO
The Programme: Britten - Serenade for tenor, horn and strings
Mahler - 5th Symphony



Next, the main event, Mahlers 5th. The Funeral March begins, and Spano looks like he knows where he's going. Elizabeth Layton, leader of the Orchestra, looks like she loves Mahler in a dreamy way, and I near fall in love with her too in a dreamy way.

The timpani are spot on, and Robert Spano gives it hell in the second movement, making sure the Orchestra keep in synch with his expressions and body movements, fleeing from first violins to double bass to absoloutley superb trumpet by Mark O'keefe, with passion from Spanos feet upward. This is quite in order as Mahler marked the movement to be played stormy, with vehemence.

The Scherzo third movement is a real tickler, Spano gives it the earthy folky feel it deserves, and it lives up to its title scherzo (literally 'Joke'), and the triangle is heard!

The famous Adagio fourth movement comes on with the conductor paying attention to the downbeats, and a magnificent weariness is born here, the World is just too much to take in, and the Orchestra under Spano lets us know that. There is scarcely a pause before Spano begins the fifth movement.

Many of the themes come together for the finale, the Adagio being prominent in this performance, and it is here we can hear (where Mahlers learning from Bachs scores) a fine balance of Polophony. There are melodies here not intertwined, but bouncing off each other in a coherent way, meeting and culminating in an expression of optimism and complete joy.

Noteworthy were Mark O'Keefe on trumpet, an absoloutley spellbinding job with no silly vibrato, David Flack (Horns), Simon Johnson and Philip Weldon (great Trombones).

My only problem with the entire performance was the Brass and Woodwind being one or two decibels louder than expected - Spano gave no let up in this and there was a little drowning going on. But then, that may be because of where I was sitting (in the cheap seats, above right of Orchestra) or the Hall acoustics - this was the only major flaw if one can call it that - it is Mahler, and some conductors (Solti et al.,) liked Mahler horns and trumpets etc to be loud as hell. Overall though, it was a superb performance, one I will remember, and Radio 3 rightly have recorded it for broadcast at a later date.

Well done Spano and the BBC SSO.


Good review ! It gives us old geezers a nice feel of being back in our late teens-early twenties, when Mahler's 5th was the coolest and hottest thing in town .

QuoteThere are melodies here not intertwined, but bouncing off each other in a coherent way, meeting and culminating in an expression of optimism and complete joy.
Well, that's how the movement is constructed. The ping-pong effect is quite intentional and part of the movement's extremely 'learned' structure -a Rondo that neatly telescopes all kinds of baroque and classical elements such as fugue, choral, counterpoint and the like.
FWIW, it should be noted that it's normal that there should be 'scarcely a pause' between IV and V: it's marked attacca, or "without pause" in plain English.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 29, 2008, 12:20:21 PM
I have been watching Bernstein conducting the 2nd from Ely Cathedral in 1973. I have never heard him in this piece. I had no real idea what to expect. It is by some minutes the slowest of the half dozen versions that I have. In at 91 minutes almost 10 minutes longer than most of them.

This performance is with the first and third on a double DVD set from DG.

As so often, here timings do not really tell the story. It is not a moment too long. Endlessly I was drawn to detail I have never really taken in. Detail I was aware of made a new kind of sense. Although slow, it is never leaden, but is full of energy, the rhythms lift, drama is coursing through it. It is often thrilling.

Immediately after the low strings announce the start, the tempo is set at a noticeable notch slower than I have heard it. There are fast stretches, but never hectic and the speed changes are integrated. The second movement opens deliberately with the landler handled affectionately.

The sound is close, very, there is not a lot of sense of the vast space in which they are performing. The exception is in the final movement with the offstage brass which sound a great distance and the visuals match the beautiful effect. The LSO play their socks off. Practically an historic document there are some fearsome mullets and sideburns on display. Always excepting Kurt on timpany, as elegant as ever.

My old choir the Edinburgh Festival Chorus do the honours, do them well and sing without scores. Some faces I recognise; younger than when I was around. Sheila Armstrong has her splendid two pence worth, a short but difficult solo; as she is responsible for correcting the pitch, while the choir is still singing should the chorus go flat during the hushed unaccompanied 'Auferstehn'. No correction was needed. Singing softly and a' capella is always difficult for a large choir and frequently they will all sink together...in tune. Often the passage is doubled very quietly by the strings as a safety net. But it would spoil the effect.

Janet Baker sings Ulricht as well as I have ever heard her. She copes easily with the tempo that puts two minutes onto the usual timing and uses that timing to bring out lots of shades of expression. No wonder she appears on so many recordings of the piece.

Right after her movement faded slowly into silence, Bernstein unleashes a terrific wave of sound heralding the epic final movement. He stretches silences and at times movement of the music is as though under water in slow motion; but as I said, it all works wonderfully. there is a superbly tense buildup to the united horn calls which feel like a ship being launched, then, as I think, with the best of conductors, Bernstein slows further to let the epic qualities of this section register. On it goes through the drum roll and towards the magically hushed choral contribution.

Bernstein conducts from memory, uses a stick and as I am sure everyone familiar with him would assume, he communicates fully and clearly.

Now I know what to expect and what I have been missing all these years.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 29, 2008, 01:03:27 PM
Excellent, Mike. Thanks. You bring it to life.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 29, 2008, 01:09:07 PM
Wow, great write-up, Mike.  And I guess I didn't realize you hadn't heard Bernstein in this piece.  His CD with the NYPO (the DG one from the mid-1980s) is still one of my favorite versions, and this DVD sounds like it is similarly riveting. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 29, 2008, 07:33:18 PM
The Bernstein '73 M2 is VERY reverberant. It's recorded in a large cathedral, and I find the basses boomy, treble imprecise, and middle dynamically-compressed. Very flawed technically...

but musically I don't need to say much...it's Bernstein, of course it's emotionally deep and all. Just make sure you like your Mahler beefed up instead of straight-talkers' approach like Abbado.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on June 29, 2008, 09:41:51 PM
Quote from: meh on June 29, 2008, 07:33:18 PM
but musically I don't need to say much...it's Bernstein, of course it's emotionally deep and all. Just make sure you like your Mahler beefed up instead of straight-talkers' approach like Abbado.

I don't think knight thinks in such general musical terms. His review is much more detailed and perceptive than that.

Which reminds me - knight: there was a big Mahler festival in London in the early 80s where Abbado conducted all the symphonies with the LSO, is that correct? If so, did you take part in some of these performances?

I have one question though since it's been ages since I watched this film:

Quote from: meh on June 29, 2008, 07:33:18 PM
The Bernstein '73 M2 is VERY reverberant. It's recorded in a large cathedral, and I find the basses boomy, treble imprecise, and middle dynamically-compressed. Very flawed technically...
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2008, 12:20:21 PM
The sound is close, very, there is not a lot of sense of the vast space in which they are performing.

So what is the sound like, very close or VERY reverberant?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 29, 2008, 09:46:25 PM
M, No I was not involved in the Mahler festival at all. I was out of the big choirs by then, living in rural England.

As to the recording; the sound is very close and full, little reverb at all. Soloists and choir also forward in the soundpicture.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 29, 2008, 10:50:42 PM
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2008, 09:46:25 PM
M, No I was not involved in the Mahler festival at all. I was out of the big choirs by then, living in rural England.

As to the recording; the sound is very close and full, little reverb at all. Soloists and choir also forward in the soundpicture.

Mike

Are we talking about the same recording? It's Bernstein's M2 with LSO and Edinburgh Festival Chorus right? 1973 LIVE in Ely cathedral? With visible audience? I have that DVD and I watched it no less than 4 times, and the sound is VERY reverberant. I say what I heard, believe it or not. Try it for yourself and see...

I doubt either one of us received a defective copy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 29, 2008, 11:02:23 PM
Yes, it is the same recording. I heard very close sound. The instruments are at the front of the soundpicture as though you were in amongst them. It is not what you would hear from half way back in the cathedral, which is how some recordings are designed. In those, reverb is frequent as the effect of the building itself is then quite clear on the overall sound. One of the worst I know of is the Maazel Don Giovanni that was used as the sountrack to the Losey film. It sounds like it was recorded in a hugh bathroom. Perhaps you are referring to reverb in a different and more technical way.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 30, 2008, 06:29:01 AM
QuoteIt sounds like it was recorded in a hugh bathroom.
:D
Have you ever heard played, or heard played electric guitar in a large bathroom with reverb all the way up? I'm pretty sure i have...... now that's REVERBANT!  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 30, 2008, 12:08:42 PM
Having dug up the DVD to have a listen again, the sound on the Bernstein M2 may not be up to the standard we would expect; I personally find it a tad hollow and distant at times, but i wouldn't go as far as saying VERY reverberant.

For what it is worth, although I am not comparing like for like, I have attended my first classical concert (rehearsals and performance) in the Ely cathedral, and putting the emotional bias aside, the sound of the DVD is indeed coming out much closer than what you you would hear on location (I was about 2/3 of the way down the cathedral, and there was quite a muffle when it reached there).

Yet again, we are talking of a 35 year old recording with our personal perceptions, so i guess it is all relative, my dear Albert  ;D... enjoy the music and go with the flow  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on June 30, 2008, 04:17:37 PM
Quote from: papy on June 30, 2008, 12:08:42 PM
Having dug up the DVD to have a listen again, the sound on the Bernstein M2 may not be up to the standard we would expect; I personally find it a tad hollow and distant at times, but i wouldn't go as far as saying VERY reverberant.

For what it is worth, although I am not comparing like for like, I have attended my first classical concert (rehearsals and performance) in the Ely cathedral, and putting the emotional bias aside, the sound of the DVD is indeed coming out much closer than what you you would hear on location (I was about 2/3 of the way down the cathedral, and there was quite a muffle when it reached there).

Yet again, we are talking of a 35 year old recording with our personal perceptions, so i guess it is all relative, my dear Albert  ;D... enjoy the music and go with the flow  ;)

Wholeheartedly agree. Reverberation isn't always a bad thing, either  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 06, 2008, 04:04:28 AM
A new 5th out last month :

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/611painH%2B6L._SS400_.jpg)

Short review here, off the Times :

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article4248791.ece (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article4248791.ece)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 01:35:05 PM
I tried really hard, but I couldn't think of anything that would interest me less than yet another Mahler 5 with a basically very good  orchestra autopiloting through the piece under the "direction" of yet another of the many wannabee conductors out there. Why? Why?? Why??? There are so many recordings of this piece already, with even better orchestras and vastly more interesting conductors.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 06, 2008, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 01:35:05 PM
I tried really hard, but I couldn't think of anything that would interest me less than yet another Mahler 5 with a basically very good  orchestra autopiloting through the piece under the "direction" of yet another of the many wannabee conductors out there. Why? Why?? Why??? There are so many recordings of this piece already, with even better orchestras and vastly more interesting conductors.
Yeah, why don't they focus their efforts on new music? We've got a couple of really good composers on this site who wouldn't be able to get the London Phil to do a recording of their music in their wildest dreams, yet the music of a dead composer can be recorded hundreds of times.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2008, 05:18:46 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 01:35:05 PM
I tried really hard, but I couldn't think of anything that would interest me less than yet another Mahler 5 with a basically very good  orchestra autopiloting through the piece under the "direction" of yet another of the many wannabee conductors out there. Why? Why?? Why??? There are so many recordings of this piece already, with even better orchestras and vastly more interesting conductors.

I haven't heard Van Zweden's Mahler but I was pleasantly surprised by the high quality of his Beethoven cycle with the Residentie Orchestra (The Hague). Based on that I wouldn't hesitate to audition anything he's recorded.

He seems to have a pretty good pedigree - he made concertmaster of the Concertgebouw Orchestra at age nineteen, as well as making the rounds as guest conductor with various orchestras until he took over the Residentie MD spot. He's now MD of the Dallas Symphony.

Granted we hardly need another recording of warhorse repertoire but sometimes these 'second string' performers can surprise us. Which makes it all worthwhile. Van Zweden's Beethoven cycle is one of those unheralded successes...



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510-G0CxAlL._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 05:36:22 PM
Quote from: donwyn on July 06, 2008, 05:18:46 PM
I haven't heard Van Zweden's Mahler but I was pleasantly surprised by the high quality of his Beethoven cycle with the Residentie Orchestra (The Hague).

I wasn't. At all.

Quote from: donwyn on July 06, 2008, 05:18:46 PM
Based on that I wouldn't hesitate to audition anything he's recorded.

Based on that, I would.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2008, 05:39:50 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 05:36:22 PM
I wasn't. At all.

Based on that, I would.

Perhaps you're just unable to understand it... 8)



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 05:44:34 PM
There isn't much or anything "hard to understand" in there. Faceless, conceptless, fairly well played, of course, and "nicely" recorded, in pleasant sound, a few random expressive touches and highlighting here and there, that's about it. A really completely superfluous product.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 05:59:49 PM
I don't have to because your tone is already insulting. Just saying "you can't understand that" twice without making any points is not good style. You have to explain why you say that. We are supposed to be nice to each other from now on. I am giving you the chance to make up for your insult. I have to run to the supermarket now and pick up some stuff. So that gives you some time to explain to me what is so drastically out of reach for me about these mediocre performances.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2008, 06:12:50 PM
If you had shown genuine interest I would have been happy to elaborate. But you were obviously more interested in beating down my suggestion than engaging in dialog.

Opportunity lost.

However, if you genuinely wish to continue you can still make matters right...'please' isn't so difficult a word...


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 06:56:41 PM
Please enlighten us.

(http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4029/sharkpn0.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2008, 07:21:36 PM
Sorry, things have gotten too fishy in here.

However, if you'd care to take a peek at a couple of general remarks I made earlier on two of the symphonies, look here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12.msg161403.html#msg161403)




Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 07:30:43 PM
Thanks for wasting my time. Few things are as sad as when someone makes big anouncements and then has absolutely nothing to say to back that up. I had looked forward to learning some very special things about Beethoven performance here, things that I haven't been able to see and understand before, and then this. All I have learned now is that you are easily impressed, have a fairly superficial way of hearing, don't really know what "HIP" or "HIP-influenced" means, and that you don't know much about the interpretation history of Beethoven's symphonies in general, that's why this mediocre product impresses you so much, why you think it is something unheard-before and rather special, something only the initiated and highly advanced Beethoven listener (like you) can "understand". In reality, there is nothing there which hasn't been done before and much better, by a lot of people.

So you wasted my time here. ****

Don't make such dramatic statements in the future when there is nothing behind them, OK? You just make yourself look ridiculous. *****
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2008, 07:48:39 PM
 :D

I fear you've misunderstood me. I'm certainly willing to expand on my meaning, but not on your terms.

When I said "you don't understand" I was only reiterating your favorite catch phrase. You use it liberally on this board without back up. Don't be surprised when it's used against you.

Anyway, you've yet to demonstrate you're genuinely interested in dialog. I ask you to say 'please' and then you stick a shark nose in my face! I interpret that as yet another act of hostility on your part. The 'please' meaning nothing in this context.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 07:59:17 PM
Anything to avoid backing up your big statements...******I guess you think just because you actually know who Beethoven was (well, "kind of", at least) makes you think you are really extremely "cultured".

****

When I tell people that I think they don't understand things, then I usually explain why. I have spent a lot of time on these forums doing so. And I am always willing to have detailed discussions. I have them with a number of people. You are apparently not one of those with enough substance to participate. That's OK. But then you shouldn't make such a big show out of it. ***
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on July 06, 2008, 09:19:31 PM
Gentlemen, if you please! :)
There seem to be some antagonism from previous encounters.. Please do not provoke each other and keep out of each others' way. I've seen the need for removing some momentos of the skirmishes... $:)

Hopefully that is the end of it. For now. ::)

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 06, 2008, 09:21:30 PM
Quote from: Que on July 06, 2008, 09:19:31 PM
Gentlemen, if you please! :)
There seem to be some antagonism from previous encounters,. Please do not provoke each other and keep out of each others' way. I've seen the need for removing some momentos of the skirmishes... $:)

Hopefully that is the end of it. For now. ::)

Q

I know you're doing your job with full responsibility, but can you maybe at least let me know you deleted my post by PM next time? That way I know what happened when my message didn't get across to another member...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
Quote from: Que on July 06, 2008, 09:19:31 PM
Gentlemen, if you please! :)
There seem to be some antagonism from previous encounters.. Please do not provoke each other and keep out of each others' way. I've seen the need for removing some momentos of the skirmishes... $:)

Hopefully that is the end of it. For now. ::)

Q

Dang, Q, half the thread is gone! :D That was the juiciest stuff! ;D



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on July 06, 2008, 09:27:55 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 06, 2008, 09:21:30 PM
I know you're doing your job with full responsibility, but can you maybe at least let me know you deleted my post by PM next time? That way I know what happened when my message didn't get across to another member...

I'lll respond via PM.

Quote from: donwyn on July 06, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
Dang, Q, half the thread is gone! :D That was the juiciest stuff! ;D

I'm so sorry, donwyn!  :) But I assure you there was nothing about Mahler..  ;D  0:)

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2008, 09:36:06 PM
Quote from: Que on July 06, 2008, 09:27:55 PM
I'm so sorry, donwyn!  :) But I assure you there was nothing about Mahler..  ;D  0:)


;D



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 09:41:34 PM
Quote from: Que on July 06, 2008, 09:27:55 PM
I'lll respond via PM.

I'm so sorry, donwyn!  :) But I assure you there was nothing about Mahler..  ;D  0:)

Q


There wasn't anything there about Beethoven either. Even though donwyn had announced some very exclusive insights and I asked him nicely to elaborate on his rather vague statements. AND posted a cute animal pic to set a relaxed mood. Who doesn't like cute animal pics?
(http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3848/whiteswns00808468x331zq9.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 06, 2008, 09:51:46 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 09:41:34 PM

There wasn't anything there about Beethoven either. Even though donwyn had announced some very exclusive insights and I asked him nicely to elaborate on his rather vague statements.

Oh, you had some questions about Beethoven?



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 06, 2008, 09:57:00 PM
I have lots of questions about Beethoven, but chances are not very good someone with your background could actually answer them.

However, you announced that you could tell me some things about these particular interpretatoins which I don't understand. Always eager to expand my horizon, I still look forward to these very special insights. Unless that was just hollow rhetorics.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 06, 2008, 09:57:33 PM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 09:41:34 PM

There wasn't anything there about Beethoven either. Even though donwyn had announced some very exclusive insights and I asked him nicely to elaborate on his rather vague statements. AND posted a cute animal pic to set a relaxed mood. Who doesn't like cute animal pics?
(http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3848/whiteswns00808468x331zq9.jpg)

Seeing as you like "cute animal pics" that much, here's one specifically for you, out of my pure kindness and generosity:
(http://blog.orly.ch/files/lolz-you-fail.jpg)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 06, 2008, 10:46:35 PM
Saw lots of activity on this thread, which I don't usually look at, so was tempted to see what's going on. Might have guessed! Nothing to add to such august discussion, except to expand on:

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 27, 2008, 03:18:47 PM
FWIW, it should be noted that it's normal that there should be 'scarcely a pause' between IV and V: it's marked attacca, or "without pause" in plain English.

This attacca is the only way to make sense of the otherwise very odd opening of the last movement, too. The opening A of the the horn is picking up the A of the violins which ends the fourth movement. The pianissimo A in the violins which follows is literally a last vestige of the fourth movement penetrating into the fifth, before the movement proper gets underway, so that we have IV - first hint of V - last echo of IV - V. I'm sure you all knew that, but it may as well be said. Now get back to arguing...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 07, 2008, 12:41:55 AM
 
Do not feed the shark.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 07, 2008, 05:57:20 AM
To be released on the 28th August (UK) for those that may be interested  :-*

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XBs1D45oL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 07, 2008, 06:29:08 AM
Amazing to see that Gergiev still finds time for such a long piece in his very busy schedule. But then the LSO can play that no matter who is posing in front of them, and he has his assistants who do most of the actual rehearsing for him, so all he has to do is show up on time (which he doesn't always do either) and grin diabolically while conducting, then everybody will be happy. Do we need that on disc? Probably not. Even though this is one of the less recorded Mahler symphonies, there are still quite a few very good versions already out there. I may be completely wrong, but I have a feeling Gergiev won't add any particular insights to what is already available.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 07, 2008, 07:35:47 AM
Quote from: M forever on July 06, 2008, 09:57:00 PM
I have lots of questions about Beethoven, but chances are not very good someone with your background could actually answer them.

Ah, yes, you bothered to "ask" me because you were interested in my culturally bankrupt opinion. How could I forget? :D

QuoteHowever, you announced that you could tell me some things about these particular interpretatoins which I don't understand. Always eager to expand my horizon, I still look forward to these very special insights. Unless that was just hollow rhetorics.

Hmm...I remember it differently. I distinctly recall it resembling a kangaroo court with you presiding and me left fending off charges of American inferiority.

Is this how you "expand your horizons"...?



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 07, 2008, 09:44:40 AM
Yes. One should always be open even if it seems unlikely that new insights come from a particular direction (like yours). But - if someone claims to have new and/or special insights, why not have an open ear and check it out? A lot of the times, like this time here with you, there is nothing behind the dramatic claims, but - sometimes there is. You never know.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 07, 2008, 09:51:07 AM
BBC Radio 3 is broadcasting the LSO live each weekday evening this week. Gergiev in Mahler.

Here is a link from which anyone interested can find details.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/performanceon3/pip/9xvdo/

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 07, 2008, 10:00:45 AM
Today I have been listening to Sinopoli's Philharmonia Mahler 6th. So far I am not sure what to think. The first 2 movements are very good. I always appreciate it when the exposition repeat in the first movement is taken. I like how Sinopoli achieves an entire spectrum of dynamics from the orchestra so at times it has a very chambermusic-like feel. But when the music calls for it he gets brass playing from the Philharmonia that is unbelievable, it almost sounds like the Staatskapelle Dresden at times. I am less thrilled with the final two movements. There are times when the phrasing is a exaggerating, like the opening of the finale, when you almost hear a tenuto mark or some kind of accent on the repeated string notes. Throughout the Andante there are highlights and dynamics tweaks that make the music sound extremely intimate and beautiful but somehow doesn't give the moment the forward impetus it needs. He certainly plays this music very freely with an almost 20 minute Andante. Regardless I can't argue this is a very prepared, rehearsed, and thought-out performance that is NOT generic in anyway.

There is a weird noise at 31:17 of the final movement that lasts for about 14 seconds, it sounds like some kind of tape rolling (like in a movie theater) or maybe a percussion part but is sounds like it isn't supposed to be there...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2008, 10:39:33 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 07, 2008, 10:00:45 AM

There is a weird noise at 31:17 of the final movement that lasts for about 14 seconds, it sounds like some kind of tape rolling (like in a movie theater) or maybe a percussion part but is sounds like it isn't supposed to be there...

It's the snare drum...although it certainly sounds like no snare drum I've ever heard. It's clearer in other recordings.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on July 07, 2008, 10:50:22 AM
See? I told you you could only benefit from overcoming your biases there and actually *listening* to these recordings. Are they "the best"? No. Are they "perfect"? Definitely not. Are they the "right way" to play Mahler? Who knows. Nobody really does (apart from Hurwitz, of course). But they certainly are more interesting and have more personality and character than a lot of the other stuff out there. Too many people conduct Mahler because the music is very "popular" now, without really having much to say about the music. Sinopoli does (or did). Plus it is great to hear the very free and individualistic playing of the orchestra. They do blend together well, but they also have very strong individual characters in each section. Yes, the sound may not exactly be the "traditional" kind of "Mahler sound", it may be a little lightweight and lack some power in the bass region, but they make that up by very transparent and well defined playing (and that includes the basses who could be "more" in some places, but they still play their part with great definition and nuance, and that is worth a lot, too). Sinopoli's handling of texture and harmonic elements and balance is very special. He understands both the structural and the musical-expressive value of the elements the music is constructed from, and the way he "deconstructs" the score and lays it open in front of the listener rather than just counting on the orchestral masses to blend together and impress by sheer impact and weight rather than musical argumentation is pretty special, something heard very rarely.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 07, 2008, 11:15:06 AM
Quote from: knight on July 07, 2008, 09:51:07 AM
BBC Radio 3 is broadcasting the LSO live each weekday evening this week. Gergiev in Mahler.

Here is a link from which anyone interested can find details.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/performanceon3/pip/9xvdo/

Mike

Thanks for the heads-up, Mike - Just caught the tail end of the 3rd movement of the Second  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 07, 2008, 11:31:21 AM
The Urlicht on that BBC3 broadcast was quite painful to listen to... that's not a Second i'll put on my shopping list... :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 07, 2008, 11:31:29 AM
Quote from: M forever on July 07, 2008, 06:29:08 AM
Amazing to see that Gergiev still finds time for such a long piece in his very busy schedule. But then the LSO can play that no matter who is posing in front of them, and he has his assistants who do most of the actual rehearsing for him, so all he has to do is show up on time (which he doesn't always do either) and grin diabolically while conducting, then everybody will be happy. Do we need that on disc? Probably not. Even though this is one of the less recorded Mahler symphonies, there are still quite a few very good versions already out there. I may be completely wrong, but I have a feeling Gergiev won't add any particular insights to what is already available.

Bernstein/NYPO on DG for example.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 07, 2008, 11:31:50 AM
Quote from: papy on July 07, 2008, 11:31:21 AM
The Urlicht on that BBC3 broadcast was quite painful to listen to... that's not a Second i'll put on my shopping list... :-\

Care to give specifics?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 07, 2008, 11:37:01 AM
the 1st section of the Urlicht was too fast for my liking, and the overall diction was not clear at all - lots of "chewed" words...  :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 07, 2008, 12:13:40 PM
Quote from: papy on July 07, 2008, 11:37:01 AM
the 1st section of the Urlicht was too fast for my liking, and the overall diction was not clear at all - lots of "chewed" words...  :(

Could it be due to the not exactly breathtaking quality of the streaming audio?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 07, 2008, 12:22:29 PM
i personally put that down to the singing, but you are right too, that streaming was below par..  >:(

and the last movement was way too fast as well... >:(

Boy, i have the "Grumpy Bugger" mode switched on tonight  0:)  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 07, 2008, 09:19:27 PM
Quote from: papy on July 07, 2008, 12:22:29 PM
i personally put that down to the singing, but you are right too, that streaming was below par..  >:(

and the last movement was way too fast as well... >:(

Boy, i have the "Grumpy Bugger" mode switched on tonight  0:)  ;D

Hurry! treat yourself to this before the illness spreads!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G2EG10Y3L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 07, 2008, 09:37:39 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 07, 2008, 09:19:27 PM
Hurry! treat yourself to this before the illness spreads!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G2EG10Y3L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Better yet, treat yourself to this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FC5WXB8AL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Couldn't resist. 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 08, 2008, 06:54:51 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 07, 2008, 09:37:39 PM
Better yet, treat yourself to this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41FC5WXB8AL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


Couldn't resist. 8)
Ohww...that version of the Mahler id like wearing a hair shirt. Not my kind of approach. However, the Kurtag Stele paired with it is pretty stunning music and there are very few versions available.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on July 08, 2008, 06:58:13 AM
Quote from: knight on July 08, 2008, 06:54:51 AM
However, the Kurtag Stele paired with it is pretty stunning music and there are very few versions available.

Mike

You got that right!  Just checked and I don't think we have a thread on that guy...will remedy in a little bit. 

Edit: oops, we certainly DO have a thread on Kurtág, and someone I know started it (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4405.msg205938/topicseen.html#msg205938). :-[

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 09, 2008, 06:06:26 PM

Finally picked up Barbirolli's M6 on EMI. It sure is slow.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 09, 2008, 07:14:17 PM
It's very slow, but utterly gripping. Impossible to forget once you've heard it.

Does it make sense as per score? No idea. But Barbirolli was of the school that read and pondered long over scores before showing up on the podium. So, even though he goes against the grain tempo-wise, I think his interpretation makes sense intellectually. Mahler's long, painful descent to hell may be viewed as a maelstrom of violent emotions, but also as a dark, relentless, slow-motion pounding, complete with flashbacks from happy memories. For me it works both ways. But my appreciation and understanding of Mahler's most important work would be incomplete without Barbiroilli's interpretation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 09, 2008, 11:58:50 PM
I agree completely, LP. Barbirolli's is one of the most compelling readings I know.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on July 10, 2008, 08:32:22 PM
Thanks to On An Overgrown Path, one of my favorite blogs, I'm listening to Valery Gergiev and the LSO in Mahler's Eighth Symphony, rebroadcast on BBC 3 after being performed live earlier tonight from St. Paul's Cathedral.  Given the difficulties of recording in the venue, the sound is quite remarkable.  Here is the link and the personnel.  (Those familiar with the Kirov will recognize some of these soloists.)

Edit: I forgot to mention, you can listen to this for 7 days!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio3.shtml

(You'll hear the end of Sadko, but just stay with it until about 19:12, when the Mahler begins.)

Mahler: Symphony No. 8
London Symphony Orchestra
Valery Gergiev conductor
Victoria Yastrebova soprano
Ailish Tynan soprano
Liudmilla Dudinova soprano
Lili Paasikivi mezzo soprano
Zlata Bulycheva mezzo soprano
Sergey Semishkur tenor
Alexey Markov baritone
Evgeny Nitikin bass
The Choir of Eltham College
London Symphony Chorus
The Choral Arts Society of Washington

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2008, 06:09:50 AM
Thanks, Bruce. Just listened to Part 1, Veni creator. I'm no great Gergiev fan, but I like what he did there. Perhaps the cavernous acoustics of St Paul's made him go slower this time, because he wasn't as rushed as usual. His tempi were good. And 'Accende lumen sensibus' always lifts my spirits.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on July 11, 2008, 06:52:48 AM
I've not been to St. Paul's Cathedral, but those who have say it's acoustically not very good, at least for this kind of music.  (Knight told me you have to be under the dome, or basically the sound is terrible.)  This Gergiev Mahler may be an instance in which the recorded version is actually better than what one would hear live.

But the soloists come through very clearly and distinctly.  In this post (http://www.overgrownpath.com/2008/07/mahler-8-symphony-of-thousand-mistakes.html) on the blog, On an Overgrown Path, Pliable comments on the close miking that was required.  My guess is that if there isn't that sense of spaciousness, the payoff is in greater detail.  And I agree: the slower tempi work better.  (But then, I like Chailly in this piece, who is even slower!)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2008, 07:08:20 AM
Overall, I like it, though it isn't perfect.

There is an interesting review afterwards...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 11, 2008, 02:12:55 PM
The acoustic setting takes a bit of getting used to, but in many ways it adds to the epic quality of the piece. However, to me the greatest drawback is the submerging of the strings who become indistinguishable for long stretches of time. The spectacular organ contribution towards the end does not register strongly.The tempi are fine, sane, nothing too pushed, but in fact, I sense no individual take on the piece, it is an efficient performance, but not distinctive or inspirational. Try Wyn Morris, also live, I think at the Albert Hall and then see how he makes much more of the narrative aspects of the symphony.

I wonder if these performances will appear on CD.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2008, 11:09:19 PM
Quote from: knight on July 11, 2008, 02:12:55 PM
I wonder if these performances will appear on CD.

Yes. The 1st and 5th (IIRC) have already appeared. The 8th will follow in due course. I wonder what magic the sound engineers will have to employ...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 12, 2008, 12:03:28 AM
Jezetha, I have the First and Sixth, I don't think that the Fifth is out there yet. I am assuming the two performances of the Eighth will be patched/edited into live discs. They seem to be rushing the whole cycle through. I suppose I was really wondering whether there were more performances planned, possibly at another venue, which might yield a performance with more flavour, but I guess not.

I enjoyed the two initial issues, though I know the First did not meet with a great deal of approval. I am happy to pick and choose amongst the performances I want. I think his approach is too variable for me to want the whole lot.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 12, 2008, 12:38:23 AM
Critic Edward Seckerson said he almost wanted to walk out during the Ninth, because Gergiev was so unsubtle and insensitive. He also doesn't prepare too well. It's hit or miss with Gergiev. He can be electrifying, but there is a brutality to his approach I can't stomach. 'Gergiev doesn't do charm', as Seckerson (I think) said during that post-concert review...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 12, 2008, 12:52:08 AM
I find a lot more charm in his take on the First than others seem to. (I reviewed the First and Sixth somewhere on this site, perhaps on this thread.)  But the Eighth sounded undercooked to me, not in terms of ensemble, but the detail of an interpretation. Sinopoli is another interesting Eighth if Morris is not available, you can feel the thinking that goes into that kind of approach. I have not always enjoyed Sinopoli's Mahler. A live 2nd felt like assisting at an autopsy; everything splayed out for you to pay attention to, but dead.

Getting the ducks lined up is not getting to the heart of this symphony and the Eighth will probably sound quite good on disc, the acoustic will enhance the soloists for example, but I doubt if it will be thought of as a valuable lasting document.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 12, 2008, 01:25:08 AM
Quote from: knight on July 12, 2008, 12:52:08 AM
I have not always enjoyed Sinopoli's Mahler. A live 2nd felt like assisting at an autopsy; everything splayed out for you to pay attention to, but dead.

;D

Or put differently - the intimacy of the surgeon, not the lover!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 13, 2008, 10:52:15 AM
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/06/why_ive_moved_on_from_mahler.html (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/06/why_ive_moved_on_from_mahler.html)

Off a blog on the Guardian's website.

:-\ ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 13, 2008, 11:21:11 AM
"I suppose the more likely scenario is that the collective consciousness has not moved on at all but, rather, I have."

From Mr Tristan Jakob-Hoff. Here is his full blog biog.

"Tristan Jakob-Hoff is a classical music writer and critic. He studied composition at the University of Auckland and holds decidedly firm opinions on contemporary music as a result. When not writing about music, he likes to spend his time earning a living."


Any interest that becomes obsessional surely is eventually satiated. Had he leavened his obsessiveness, perhaps his Mahler recordings would be enjoying a longer shelf life; rather than a life on the shelf.

I wonder what it is that he does for a living?

Mike

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 13, 2008, 02:33:58 PM
QuoteSo has the shine finally come off Mahler? In a post-9/11 world - a world in which we are fed a constant, wearying diet of terrorism, climate change, genocide and epic natural disasters, but one in which we are crucially short on optimism - has our appetite for Mahler's brand of dualism been diminished? Perhaps the problem is that, while the more extreme passages in his music seem to reflect all too accurately the world in which we live, the sentimental aspects feel more and more like false consolation.

I am profoundly amused by how the world always seems to revolve around American events and concerns, at times. ;D

And on-topic, I am also profoundly amused by how people almost always seem to have to write all sorts of dissertations simply to come to terms with change; in this case, a change of musical taste.

He says it himself, he "moved on": it's about himself and his preferences. How is this about Mahler, other than to appease his insecurity? In fact, he sounds a lot like what he seems to reject in Mahler, most ironically! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 13, 2008, 04:27:28 PM
Quote from: Renfield on July 13, 2008, 02:33:58 PM
I am profoundly amused by how the world always seems to revolve around American events and concerns, at times. ;D

And on-topic, I am also profoundly amused by how people almost always seem to have to write all sorts of dissertations simply to come to terms with change; in this case, a change of musical taste.

He says it himself, he "moved on": it's about himself and his preferences. How is this about Mahler, other than to appease his insecurity? In fact, he sounds a lot like what he seems to reject in Mahler, most ironically! :D
who is this quote from?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on July 14, 2008, 04:57:59 AM
Quote from: knight on July 13, 2008, 11:21:11 AM
I wonder what it is that he does for a living?

Here's hoping his boss isn't an incurable Mahler-phile, lest the next office party end in tears.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 14, 2008, 05:49:37 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 13, 2008, 04:27:28 PM
who is this quote from?

That Guardian blog post about moving on from Mahler, in our post-9/11 world. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 14, 2008, 07:00:59 AM
ah, alright, just read it.

You know, the same thing has pretty much happened with the Brahms symphonies for me. I used to listen to a Brahms symphony just about every day for 2 years straight- and there's only 4 of them, so I got to where i memorized just about every note before long. After awhile, I just stopped listening, had no desire and still don't even though I really really love them. It was just so much that going back to one of those symphonies seems like the "same old" thing.
In fact, I'm listening to Mahler less and less...... but i can't say that I'm actually moving on. I "moved on" from Brahms to Mahler in my main listening, and I've been getting very familiar with the Shostakovich symphonies, but I'm not actually "moving on" to them.
I think it's a similar thing as the author says, just cut back a little bit and the impact will come back.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 14, 2008, 03:39:57 PM
I just listened to the 6th for the first time and.....WOW  :o what a powerful symphony...so hopeless and tragic and discouraging...the build-up to the hammer blows are ingenious.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 14, 2008, 04:23:55 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 14, 2008, 03:39:57 PM
I just listened to the 6th for the first time and.....WOW  :o what a powerful symphony...so hopeless and tragic and discouraging...the build-up to the hammer blows are ingenious.

Hurray! How are you with the 7th, then? ;D

(One by one, you'll get to the 9th one day, that's all that matters. :P)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 15, 2008, 12:11:24 PM
Quote from: Renfield on July 14, 2008, 04:23:55 PM
Hurray! How are you with the 7th, then? ;D

(One by one, you'll get to the 9th one day, that's all that matters. :P)


Renfield is there any particular recording you want to recommend me for no.6? I have Bernstein (both), Abbado, Kubelik, Bertini, Gergiev, de Waart and Solti. Haven't heard all of them yet, however.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 15, 2008, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 15, 2008, 12:11:24 PM
Renfield is there any particular recording you want to recommend me for no.6? I have Bernstein (both), Abbado, Kubelik, Bertini, Gergiev, de Waart and Solti. Haven't heard all of them yet, however.  :)

Wow!  Be careful of an overdose! 

The good Renfield will no doubt respond: my vote - Kubelik and Bernstein are great for older recordings: if you are a collector who wants completeness, then do not forget Boulez on DGG.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2008, 12:22:09 PM
Bonehelm, why not try Barbirolli's Sixth... It's terrific. But be quick with dl'ing, because this Rapidshare account will expire on Thursday and I am not renewing it...

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191887/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_I._Allegro_energico__ma_non_troppo.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191889/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_II._Scherzo._Wuchtig.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191891/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_III_Andante.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123194299/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_IV_Finale__Allegro_Moderato_.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191892/Mahler__Strauss_booklet.pdf
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 15, 2008, 12:25:38 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 15, 2008, 12:20:58 PM
Wow!  Be careful of an overdose! 

The good Renfield will no doubt respond: my vote - Kubelik and Bernstein are great for older recordings: if you are a collector who wants completeness, then do not forget Boulez on DGG.
What does the second "G" stand for in DGG. I keep seeing people use it but Deutsche Grammophon has only one "G" in the entire unabbreviated name. So how come when you abbreviate it, it gains an extra "G"?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2008, 12:27:51 PM
Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft (company).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 15, 2008, 01:08:05 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 15, 2008, 12:27:51 PM
Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft (company).
Thanks, now that makes sense.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: drogulus on July 15, 2008, 01:21:38 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 15, 2008, 12:22:09 PM
Bonehelm, why not try Barbirolli's Sixth... It's terrific. But be quick with dl'ing, because this Rapidshare account will expire on Thursday and I am not renewing it...




     My mind has been poisoned by Szell/Cleveland, so the Barbirolli seems slow. I'll give it another try.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2008, 01:34:35 PM
Quote from: drogulus on July 15, 2008, 01:21:38 PM
     My mind has been poisoned by Szell/Cleveland, so the Barbirolli seems slow. I'll give it another try.

It IS slow. But Barbirolli makes a convincing case, I think (although I don't want 'my' Sixths to be always like that...).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 15, 2008, 01:35:30 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 14, 2008, 03:39:57 PM
I just listened to the 6th for the first time and.....

Quote from: Bonehelm on July 15, 2008, 12:11:24 PM
....I have Bernstein (both), Abbado, Kubelik, Bertini, Gergiev, de Waart and Solti. Haven't heard all of them yet, however.  :)

Bonehelm,
I am easily confused but do you mean you have accumulated those recordings (i assume complete cycles for most?), but never listened to the 6th once until now ? that's err...puzzling.... or is it just me ?  ;D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 15, 2008, 01:40:56 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 15, 2008, 01:34:35 PM
It IS slow.

hi Johan,
Just listening to Barbirolli's 1st movement now ...i am used to the abbado version, so quite a departure as well, but it does work well indeed !!

oh and Dank Je Wel !  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2008, 01:45:35 PM
Quote from: papy on July 15, 2008, 01:40:56 PM
hi Johan,
Just listening to Barbirolli's 1st movement now ...i am used to the abbado version, so quite a departure as well, but it does work well indeed !!

oh and Dank Je Wel !  ;)

C'est rien.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 15, 2008, 02:19:54 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 14, 2008, 07:00:59 AM
ah, alright, just read it.

You know, the same thing has pretty much happened with the Brahms symphonies for me. I used to listen to a Brahms symphony just about every day for 2 years straight- and there's only 4 of them, so I got to where i memorized just about every note before long. After awhile, I just stopped listening, had no desire and still don't even though I really really love them. It was just so much that going back to one of those symphonies seems like the "same old" thing.
In fact, I'm listening to Mahler less and less...... but i can't say that I'm actually moving on. I "moved on" from Brahms to Mahler in my main listening, and I've been getting very familiar with the Shostakovich symphonies, but I'm not actually "moving on" to them.
I think it's a similar thing as the author says, just cut back a little bit and the impact will come back.
Sorry I wrote this post. This is pure nonsense. What can I say, I'm more obsessed with Mahler's 9th than Eric is obsessed with Pelleas et Melisande.  :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 15, 2008, 03:03:45 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 15, 2008, 02:19:54 PM
Sorry I wrote this post. This is pure nonsense. What can I say, I'm more obsessed with Mahler's 9th than Eric is obsessed with Pelleas et Melisande.  :P

An obsession with Mahler's Ninth is ipso facto much less serious than the idee fixe of Monsieur Eric!

As you age, you will go back to things from decades earlier, and wonder why you ever dismissed them, and vice versa!  In recent years I have returned to Schumann and Schubert symphonies now and then, after decades of neglect.  Of course, I now wonder what I heard to enthuse me so much about Penderecki's Second Symphony: it seems unworthy now of my initial approval.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 15, 2008, 03:17:18 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 15, 2008, 03:03:45 PM
An obsession with Mahler's Ninth is ipso facto much less serious than the idee fixe of Monsieur Eric!
Interesting terms.... i've heard the latter and probably the former, but I'm not quite sure what they mean.

Quote from: Cato on July 15, 2008, 03:03:45 PM
Of course, I now wonder what I heard to enthuse me so much about Penderecki's Second Symphony: it seems unworthy now of my initial approval.
Haven't listened to that one for awhile, but this is the exact same feeling I have of Mahler's 8th. Good moments mixed with such overdosed grand statements that have no effect on me at all.... i suspect maybe i was just in the mood for it at first listening? Or maybe I feel it just isn't something I'd listen to again and again?  I don't know, maybe the same is true for you, too?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 15, 2008, 04:22:06 PM
Ipso facto means 'as a consequence'  - litterally "from that fact" (IIRC my high school Latin). And idée fixe (litterally 'fixed idea') simply means something that keeps returning, or that simply won't go away. A motto, a harmless obsession are idées fixes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on July 15, 2008, 05:06:38 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 15, 2008, 03:03:45 PM
Of course, I now wonder what I heard to enthuse me so much about Penderecki's Second Symphony: it seems unworthy now of my initial approval.
I think it's the completely over-the-top cheesiness of the piece....it's almost like a caricature of the post-Romantic symphony, yet it's done with manifest conviction. I pull it out once every year or two and thoroughly enjoy it: even though it's a dreadful load of old rubbish it's a very well-executed load of old rubbish.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bonehelm on July 15, 2008, 05:41:38 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 15, 2008, 12:22:09 PM
Bonehelm, why not try Barbirolli's Sixth... It's terrific. But be quick with dl'ing, because this Rapidshare account will expire on Thursday and I am not renewing it...

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191887/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_I._Allegro_energico__ma_non_troppo.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191889/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_II._Scherzo._Wuchtig.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191891/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_III_Andante.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123194299/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_IV_Finale__Allegro_Moderato_.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191892/Mahler__Strauss_booklet.pdf


Thanks for the links, kind sir. Couldn't appreciate more.  :) Gotta hate using rapidshare without an account!  >:(

@papy: Yes I do have that many cycles but never bothered trying the 6th. I am going in order, 1-10 with DLvDE between 8 and 9. I feel that I must be able to "grasp"  a work well before moving on to the next.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 15, 2008, 07:22:35 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 15, 2008, 12:20:58 PM
The good Renfield will no doubt respond: my vote - Kubelik and Bernstein are great for older recordings: if you are a collector who wants completeness, then do not forget Boulez on DGG.

Good to see you, Cato! (If only briefly, as it might seem.) :)


Quote from: Bonehelm on July 15, 2008, 05:41:38 PM
I am going in order, 1-10 with DLvDE between 8 and 9. I feel that I must be able to "grasp"  a work well before moving on to the next.  :D

That is how I approached the Mahler symphonies, bar the 6th, which "entered" out of order due to a live concert; and I've not at all regretted it! But I left "Das Lied von der Erde" out of the set, to focus on the numbered works.

(Not to say I've never listened to it, but not as carefully as the "symphony" symphonies.) Still, go ahead with your plan. 8)


Regarding the 6th, off the top of my mind I'd recommend Karajan and Bernstein/VPO, first and foremost.


Karajan is somewhat clinical (as often with his Mahler), but in a work that I feel responds very well to that treatment: his slow movement, for instance, is probably the most haunting I've heard, exactly because of the restraint he treats the most sorrowful sections with.

Ditto for the rest of the symphony, grim, steadily and inevitably paced from beginning to end, sharply etched but vividly painted.


Bernstein is, as often, in the extreme end of the "espressivo" scale, but again, the symphony responds well to the treatment. The VPO version is expansive in every sense of the word, aurally and in terms of interpretation, stomping its way to the very, crushing, end.

Definitely over the top, but a both effective and memorable performance throughout - particularly the first movement positively roars!


Other Mahler 6ths I'd recommend:

The Barbirolli version Johan (Jezetha) uploaded, an elegant, poised, but very serious reading; the Szell version (a favourite of many) as a rougher edged, bare-fanged Karajan (to which it's quite similar, stylistically); the Boulez recording Cato mentioned for an even more single-mindedly objective (but musically crystal-clear) approach; and the Abbado/BPO recent release for a more understated catastrophe.

Kubelík I'll admit to not having listened to yet, although I recently did buy his cycle, and there are also quite a few other good (even great) Mahler 6ths I've not room or time to mention here which you would certainly be far from worse off if you picked up!

All in my opinion, of course.


Finally, since you mentioned it, Gergiev made a good impression on me with the 6th, although as a very, very "alternative" reading.

Still, I'd rank it highly "for what it is", as they say. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 15, 2008, 07:38:44 PM
Double-posting towards reminding myself to write a post on the 8th symphony for Greg, when I've more time.

It's perhaps the most special of the pre-9th Mahler symphonies to me; and likely the most self-contained, along with the 6th (in my view). :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 15, 2008, 10:09:11 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 15, 2008, 05:41:38 PM
@papy: Yes I do have that many cycles but never bothered trying the 6th. I am going in order, 1-10 with DLvDE between 8 and 9. I feel that I must be able to "grasp"  a work well before moving on to the next.  :D

that's fair enough, to each his own way  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 15, 2008, 11:44:50 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 15, 2008, 12:22:09 PM
Bonehelm, why not try Barbirolli's Sixth... It's terrific. But be quick with dl'ing, because this Rapidshare account will expire on Thursday and I am not renewing it...

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191889/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_II._Scherzo._Wuchtig.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/123191891/Gustav_Mahler_-_Symphony_No.6_-_III_Andante.mp3

Jezetha, I must inform you that you have the two middle movements the wrong way round!  :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2008, 11:56:45 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 15, 2008, 11:44:50 PM
Jezetha, I must inform you that you have the two middle movements the wrong way round!  :P

You're absolutely right. Barbirolli: II. Andante and III. Scherzo. I seem (unconsciously) to have followed my own preference... Well spotted!  :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 16, 2008, 05:58:31 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 15, 2008, 04:22:06 PM
Ipso facto means 'as a consequence'  - litterally "from that fact" (IIRC my high school Latin). And idée fixe (litterally 'fixed idea') simply means something that keeps returning, or that simply won't go away. A motto, a harmless obsession are idées fixes.

Quite right!  Although I think Eric did go away!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 16, 2008, 06:58:10 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 15, 2008, 04:22:06 PM
Ipso facto means 'as a consequence'  - litterally "from that fact" (IIRC my high school Latin). And idée fixe (litterally 'fixed idea') simply means something that keeps returning, or that simply won't go away. A motto, a harmless obsession are idées fixes.
Cool, thanks for the explanation. I was right about the second one after all (i got an explanation while reading about Takemitsu's orchestral works), the first is new for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 16, 2008, 05:30:58 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 16, 2008, 05:58:31 AM
Quite right!  Although I think Eric did go away!

Aren't Eric's exits only a momentary pause before his next entrance ? The man is obviously an old hand at theatre antics :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 17, 2008, 07:15:12 PM
Two quite fascinating performances of Das Lied von der Erde. Both fatally flawed by technical shortcomings, but worth investigating by the intrepid:

- Bruno Walter and the NYPO, with Kathleen Ferrier and Set Svanholm. Live from Carnegie Hall, 1948. Obviously frayed recording, but it still allows to hear a transcendent interpretation from the conductor. I didn't find much transcendency in the singing, though. Svanholm is a blustery tenor who doesn't convey anything from the poetry he declaims so forcefully. Ferrier is moving but her singing is as usual fraught with intonation problems. My wife, who knows nothing about music exclaimed: elle chante faux!. Unfortunately she was quite right. Although the voice is as ever gloriously rich, the singer simply can't control her emission. The final 'ewigs' are extraordinarily moving, though. Walter's conducting makes this worth hearing. The sepulchral, spooky character of the central orchestral interlude (in Der Abschied) is absolutely stunning. The sound is badly coloured and saturated, quite disagreeable to listen to.

- The mezzo in the other radio broadcast transcript I listened to is Yvonne Minton. Her instrument is absolutely reliable, as well as being tonally refulgent and secure throughout its range. But she is no Ferrier and although she pleases the ear, the attention wanders - a very unfortunate thing in this work. But her colleague Jon Vickers offers ample compensation. He delivers a riveting, spellbinding interpretation and a vocally sterling performance. From stentorian outpourings to mesmerizingly crooned soft notes, he offers the best combination of voice and mind I've heard in this thankless part. Pierre Boulez conducts the Paris orchestra. The sound is atrocious - there's all kind of electronic interferences, the audio signal ping-pongs maddeningly between the right and left channels in the first two minutes, and there's no musical image to speak of. That's too bad, because Boulez seems to conduct a good, well-balanced performance. If ever there was an official release of those 1982 tapes, it would be worth acquiring. It would complement anybody's favourite version with a better female alto.

Speaking of which, I was surprised to read in the liner notes to the Walter recording that it's Walter who imposed the mezzo version around the musical world, after having premiered the work in the tenor - baritone combination. Apparently Mahler envisaged using a female low voice only as an alternative to a male one, "which he favoured". I had always thought it was the other way around. Anybody knows anything about that? 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on August 03, 2008, 01:17:39 PM
anyone know about this?

a review for the Mahler 10 score:

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?item=3140919&cart=3426771296542660&cm_re=289.1.4-_-Results+Item-_-Title


Jokl edition should be banned
"This corrupted edition refers to the 1951 publication and should be banned. There is a better alternative: Cooke and within two years Universal will publish a a new edition of all of the sketches as part of the Kritisache Gesamt Ausgabe"
-- fransbuilder@hotmail.com from The Hague, March 31, 2008


i have no idea what he's talking about..... should i wait 2 years and not buy this one?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on August 05, 2008, 10:23:03 AM
Mahlers 10th - I don't really do anything other than the Adagio, because almost everything else is 'reconstructed'.  There are a number of Mahler 10th 'reconstructions' out there, so don't wait.  I have four different 'reconstructions' and I couldn't bide another one.  The one I recommend most is Barshai with the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie - his reconstruction IMHO is superb, rivalling Cookes famous interpretation...although I cannot tell you why this is so, just a preference for sound quality and Barshais understanding of Mahlers Symphonic temprament.
"Kritisache Gesamt Ausgabe"  -  I haven't a clue either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
That's a thorny question that will be best resolved by personal impressions.  The various completions/reconstructions have been performed by dedicated musicologists who pored over available manuscripts and other sources for thousands of hours before submitting their efforts for publication. I respect that. But whatever their merits, the proof of the pudding is probably not in the various editions. A great interpretation and performance of a given text will still carry more weigth than any scholarly effort brought forth by an ineffectual messenger.

IOW that Barshai version is still the one I look for when (not often) feeling Mahler's last, incomplete and unfathomable thoughts should be heard in performance.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 05, 2008, 07:02:06 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
IOW that Barshai version is still the one I look for when (not often) feeling Mahler's last, incomplete and unfathomable thoughts should be heard in performance.
Hubba, hubba, indeed!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 06, 2008, 09:09:34 PM
Barshai is much too dry for me. Rattle/BPO (Cooke III) is my preference, intense and not mannered as R can sometimes be. Haven't heard Chailly's highly-rated recording. The Wheeler arrangement on Naxos is apparently closer to the sketches (conductor also referred to Cooke in preparation); performance is a good run-through but lacks the last degree of conviction. K Sanderling (Cooke II) has received some praise but, apart from dated sound and less than brilliant ensemble, I thought S hadn't fully grasped the work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on August 06, 2008, 09:27:21 PM
Have you "fully grasped" Mahler's work?

This comment surprised me on many levels. I haven't heard this particular recording, but a lot of the Eterna recordings I have heard from Sanderling and the BSO from the 70s have outstanding sound. They may not have had the most high-end equipment, but the recording engineers they had were extremely well trained musically and technically. Some of these recordings are, as far as recording quality is concerned, among the best I have ever heard. Great stereo placement, very transparent and "natural" - but just not "sweetened" or "beefed up" sound. The playing of the BSO was indeed not as "brilliant" as some "virtuoso" orchestras, but usually very solid and with a hearty, slightly rough and "honest" sonority which I have always enjoyed. So now I am really curious. Maybe I should get this recording.

I haven't heard Rattle/BP nor Chailly/RSOB, but I heard both in concert when they were recorded. So it might be interesting to revisit these performances through the recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on August 12, 2008, 01:51:05 PM
I saw this on wikipedia: (Das Lied von der Erde)

QuoteThe last movement is very difficult to conduct because of its cadenza writing for voice and solo instruments, which often flows over the barlines, "Ohne Rücksicht auf das Tempo" (Without regard for the tempo) according to Mahler's own direction. Bruno Walter related[cite this quote] that Mahler showed him the score of this movement and asked, "Do you know how to conduct this? Because I certainly don't." Mahler also hesitated to put the piece before the public because of its relentless negativity, unusual even for him. "Won't people go home and shoot themselves?" he asked.[

Now that i have the score ( :) )..... ahem, now that anyone with internet can have the score, i decided to take yet another listen to the last movement for now.

I've always found it challenging and have never gotten into it much, though i've always loved the last few minutes. The beginning of Der Abschied is so jerky that it's hard to listen to, and the oboe is so nasal and irritating that it nearly hurts my ears. I don't get why he'd write so many fast woodwind figures like he does.......  i have the Klemperer recording, and i hear that's about the best it gets.  :-\ Really, though, the singing is perfect but i'm not sure i like the way it was recorded much either. I'm almost tempted to only listen to the last ten or so minutes from now on, which is perfect- i mean, if the singer is dwelling on the word "ewig........ewig...." you know it's gotta be good.

Is that last quote really his? If it is, that's great  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on August 18, 2008, 02:57:48 PM
anyone see this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/GT8m8U05ZGo&feature=relate
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on August 25, 2008, 07:42:30 AM
anyone read this yet?

http://www.amazon.com/Gustav-Mahler-Vol-Short-1907-1911/dp/0198163878/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219678526&sr=1-1

I hear it's actually 1700 pages long!  :o
But it's $80, and way out of my price range.
It's the 4th and final volume in a series of biographies, including analysis of his last works- Das Lied, and the last 2 symphonies.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2008, 08:58:25 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on August 25, 2008, 07:42:30 AM
anyone read this yet?

http://www.amazon.com/Gustav-Mahler-Vol-Short-1907-1911/dp/0198163878/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219678526&sr=1-1

I hear it's actually 1700 pages long!  :o
But it's $80, and way out of my price range.
It's the 4th and final volume in a series of biographies, including analysis of his last works- Das Lied, and the last 2 symphonies.



I'm currently reading it. It's 1758 pages long plus another 16 covering the contents, introduction, etc. I really wish it had been split into two volumes. The thing weighs about seven pounds; it's a pain to hold for extended periods. I have the first three volumes too (bought the first in 1977).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on August 25, 2008, 09:06:37 AM
i'm so jealous........

but it isn't a be-all end-all bio, is it?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2008, 09:22:16 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on August 25, 2008, 09:06:37 AM
i'm so jealous........

but it isn't a be-all end-all bio, is it?

As an almost day to day, extremely detailed account of his life, yes, I would describe it as that. For the Mahler fanatic, I think it's a must read. It's an essential reference book too. As a critical study of the music, there are other books that dig deeper.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on August 25, 2008, 10:02:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2008, 09:22:16 AM
As an almost day to day, extremely detailed account of his life, yes, I would describe it as that. For the Mahler fanatic, I think it's a must read. It's an essential reference book too. As a critical study of the music, there are other books that dig deeper.

Sarge
Excellent.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on August 26, 2008, 07:16:23 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2008, 09:22:16 AM
As an almost day to day, extremely detailed account of his life, yes, I would describe it as that. For the Mahler fanatic, I think it's a must read. It's an essential reference book too. As a critical study of the music, there are other books that dig deeper.

Sarge

Have you read Floros' books about Mahler, his literary interests, the musical language of the 19th century as reflected in Mahler's works, and about the symphonies? Extremely interesting. I think only the book about the symphonies has been translated into English.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 27, 2008, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 26, 2008, 07:16:23 PM
Have you read Floros' books about Mahler, his literary interests, the musical language of the 19th century as reflected in Mahler's works, and about the symphonies? Extremely interesting. I think only the book about the symphonies has been translated into English.


I've only read the translated Gustav Mahler The Symphonies.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on August 28, 2008, 04:28:44 PM
I massively recommend reading "Die geistige Welt Gustav Mahlers in systematischer Darstellung" and "Mahler und die Symphonik des 19. Jahrhunderts in neuer Deutung". Both books have enormously influenced and enrichened my view of Mahler and his music, and especially its musical and cultural contexts. I am sure after 30+ years in Germany, you can read those books, if not, ask your wife to read them and translate them for you!
;D $:) 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 28, 2008, 04:48:02 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 28, 2008, 04:28:44 PM
I massively recommend reading "Die geistige Welt Gustav Mahlers in systematischer Darstellung" and "Mahler und die Symphonik des 19. Jahrhunderts in neuer Deutung". Both books have enormously influenced and enrichened my view of Mahler and his music, and especially its musical and cultural contexts. I am sure after 30+ years in Germany, you can read those books, if not, ask your wife to read them and translate them for you!
;D $:) 0:)

Both are OOP. There's one offer at amazon.de for the former: €160 (I think I'll pass  ;D ); one offer for the latter, €105. Maybe the library has copies.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on August 28, 2008, 04:53:49 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 28, 2008, 04:48:02 PM
Maybe the library has copies.
Ha, which library, God's library?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 28, 2008, 05:09:12 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on August 28, 2008, 04:53:49 PM
Ha, which library, God's library?

Good question. I don't even know how libraries work in Germany. It's been decades, literally, since I last borrowed a book from any library. I prefer to own. Since I'm a resident of Worms, I assume I can get a library card (or whatever) and borrow from the city's library.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on August 28, 2008, 05:50:46 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 28, 2008, 05:09:12 PM
Good question. I don't even know how libraries work in Germany.

Same as everywhere. You go in, show your ID, get a library card, select the media you want to check out, and check them out. If you are me, then as a rule, you return them late and pay a lot of unnecessary fees.

These days, you can even research what certain libraries have. They don't seem to have these books in Worms. That doesn't surprise me. But in a lot of cities, you can sometimes get books from other places if you pay a transport fee. Dunno if they do that there. You would have to ask them (or ask your wife to ask them for you).

In any case, if you ever get a chance to borrow or buy or steal these books, don't hesitate. They are really very interesting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on August 28, 2008, 06:33:59 PM
An old book on Mahler in the public domain...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/aebiuxp5tso/gustavmahlerstud00stefuoft.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/aebiuxp5tso/gustavmahlerstud00stefuoft.pdf)

:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2008, 11:16:48 PM
Quote from: M forever on August 28, 2008, 04:28:44 PM
I massively recommend reading "Die geistige Welt Gustav Mahlers in systematischer Darstellung" and "Mahler und die Symphonik des 19. Jahrhunderts in neuer Deutung".

Seconded.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on August 29, 2008, 12:59:00 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on August 28, 2008, 06:33:59 PM
An old book on Mahler in the public domain...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/aebiuxp5tso/gustavmahlerstud00stefuoft.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/aebiuxp5tso/gustavmahlerstud00stefuoft.pdf)

:)
Awesome!  :o
thanks for this......
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2008, 01:14:19 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on August 28, 2008, 06:33:59 PM
An old book on Mahler in the public domain...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/aebiuxp5tso/gustavmahlerstud00stefuoft.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/aebiuxp5tso/gustavmahlerstud00stefuoft.pdf)

:)

Paul Stefan's book is a classic. It gives you a very vivid sense of how Mahler's music appeared to his contemporaries. Excellent service, John!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 10, 2008, 05:07:54 PM
A gift for everyone, whether they like it or not: Das Klangende Lied!

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/8Eto2qXJhuQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/ky8t9jPp7Ao&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/7J_9emospyc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/jN8tnEJv-eA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/F2shtzY3cV8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/0Z2dPeyuzb0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/IMX9VLKWgMw&feature=related








I want people's opinions about this work. I never bought any of the recordings because I've heard clips and wasn't impressed, plus most of them are old and there's hardly any reviews. Now, after listening, it feels kinda weird. I've heard every note of this guy's music that is available..... :(

It does seem like an "amateur" work, but there's flashes of genius here and there and lots of foreshadowing of his symphonies.  In fact, during one part (either the 3rd or 5th video), he wrote something similar to what he does in the second- some marching band-like thing playing out of tempo and in another key, kinda like Ives, I guess. Possibly the most discordant section of Mahler's music, period.

It of course sounds like his early songs- don't have the Piano Quartet in mind, because it doesn't sound too much like that. It was written in 1880 (he was 20) and the Piano Quartet was from 1876 (when he was 16), so it sounds like he went from sounding just like Schumann to creating his own style in 4 years.
I thought the whole thing was pretty much schizophrenic-sounding- up and down, all over the place. It sounds like he was at an age where he had lots of ideas, but didn't know how to refine them.
And if you notice, he tends to end everything in a low drone, which sounds like someone not having an idea how to connect to extremely different passages together. He does this so much throughout the work that it almost seems annoying. This reminds me so much of my own music, lol! (imaginative, but unrefined in a bad way). If he can come from this, and then write his symphonies, makes me feel good about what a creative artist can develop with enough effort .

Here's the score, except it's the wrong version:

http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/c/cf/IMSLP21326-PMLP49216-Mahler_-_Das_Klagende_Lied__orch._score_.pdf
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on September 10, 2008, 05:22:03 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 10, 2008, 05:07:54 PM
Das Klangende Lied!

"Klangende" is not an existing German word.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on September 11, 2008, 08:34:02 AM
Maybe it should be "Das Klingende Lied"?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Gustav on September 11, 2008, 09:00:47 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 10, 2008, 05:07:54 PM
This reminds me so much of my own music, lol! (imaginative, but unrefined in a bad way). If he can come from this, and then write his symphonies, makes me feel good about what a creative artist can develop with enough effort .

Lol, this part is simply hilarious!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 11, 2008, 11:18:48 AM
So everyone is going to be stupid and not watch it?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on September 11, 2008, 02:35:10 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 11, 2008, 11:18:48 AM
So everyone is going to be stupid and not watch it?

Your subsequent review doesn't inspire me to listen but I did anyway (to most of it.)
The performance is fine.  Some passages of the music as you rightly say found its way into his symphonic work.
Pretty good for a 20 yr old.  Don't know how else to respond. 
:P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 11, 2008, 02:39:39 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on September 11, 2008, 02:35:10 PM
Your subsequent review doesn't inspire me to listen but I did anyway (to most of it.)
The performance is fine.  Some passages of the music as you rightly say found its way into his symphonic work.
Pretty good for a 20 yr old.  Don't know how else to respond. 
:P
Yeah, I suppose it wouldn't exactly inspire people to listen.  ;D
But it's a very obscure work, only about 1,000 views each video... just wonder why it isn't sought after more.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PSmith08 on September 11, 2008, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 10, 2008, 05:07:54 PM
I want people's opinions about this work. I never bought any of the recordings because I've heard clips and wasn't impressed, plus most of them are old and there's hardly any reviews. Now, after listening, it feels kinda weird. I've heard every note of this guy's music that is available..... :(

It does seem like an "amateur" work, but there's flashes of genius here and there and lots of foreshadowing of his symphonies.  In fact, during one part (either the 3rd or 5th video), he wrote something similar to what he does in the second- some marching band-like thing playing out of tempo and in another key, kinda like Ives, I guess. Possibly the most discordant section of Mahler's music, period.

It of course sounds like his early songs- don't have the Piano Quartet in mind, because it doesn't sound too much like that. It was written in 1880 (he was 20) and the Piano Quartet was from 1876 (when he was 16), so it sounds like he went from sounding just like Schumann to creating his own style in 4 years.
I thought the whole thing was pretty much schizophrenic-sounding- up and down, all over the place. It sounds like he was at an age where he had lots of ideas, but didn't know how to refine them.
And if you notice, he tends to end everything in a low drone, which sounds like someone not having an idea how to connect to extremely different passages together. He does this so much throughout the work that it almost seems annoying. This reminds me so much of my own music, lol! (imaginative, but unrefined in a bad way). If he can come from this, and then write his symphonies, makes me feel good about what a creative artist can develop with enough effort .

You are aware that Mahler revised Das klagende Lied heavily over twenty years or thereabouts, right? I don't know which version this is, but the piece wasn't premiered until 1901, better than twenty years after he first set down to compose it. With that in mind, it's roughly contemporary with the 3rd. For that reason alone, I tend to think of Das klagende Lied as something more than charming and prescient juvenilia.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 12, 2008, 11:15:56 AM
Quote from: PSmith08 on September 11, 2008, 04:30:50 PM
You are aware that Mahler revised Das klagende Lied heavily over twenty years or thereabouts, right? I don't know which version this is, but the piece wasn't premiered until 1901, better than twenty years after he first set down to compose it. With that in mind, it's roughly contemporary with the 3rd. For that reason alone, I tend to think of Das klagende Lied as something more than charming and prescient juvenilia.
It's the 1880 original version. I wouldn't be surprised if his revised version sounded better.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 12, 2008, 03:07:01 PM
Are you sure it's the original version *1880).  Wiki has this to say about the tortured compositional history of the work:

QuoteThe first performance did not take place until 1901, by which time Mahler had subjected his original score to several major revisions. The first revision of the work took place in the second half of 1893. This featured a significant reduction and re-arrangement of the orchestral and vocal forces, with the number of harps in the first part being reduced from six (!) to two, and the vocal soloists from eleven to four. The boys' voices were also removed. The off-stage orchestra, which had played an important role in the original score, was also completely removed from the second and third parts. In spite of having lavished such detailed effort on revising the work's first part, Mahler then decided (Autumn 1893) to omit it completely.

Further revisions to what was now a work in two parts (after the omission of the original first part) were made between September and December 1898. At this point, Mahler's previous decision to remove the off-stage brass was reversed. The 1898 revisions were in fact so extensive that Mahler had to write out an entirely new manuscript score.

Although it's unmistakably mahlerian, I wouldn't say it's worth losing sleep over. French critics have long advocated the original version, maybe because Boulez recorded it. There's a very strong Mahler streak among French critics, and they happen to have quite particular views of what constitutes an authentic Mahler sound or performance. On the evidence of recorded history and the evolution of tastes, I'd say they have a point, if not chapter and verse. Haitink has staunchly favoured the revised version. In its original garb, I'd say Mahler's Klagende Lied is not that much different form Sibelius' Kullervo symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 12, 2008, 05:01:35 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 12, 2008, 03:07:01 PM
Are you sure it's the original version *1880).  Wiki has this to say about the tortured compositional history of the work:

Although it's unmistakably mahlerian, I wouldn't say it's worth losing sleep over. French critics have long advocated the original version, maybe because Boulez recorded it. There's a very strong Mahler streak among French critics, and they happen to have quite particular views of what constitutes an authentic Mahler sound or performance. On the evidence of recorded history and the evolution of tastes, I'd say they have a point, if not chapter and verse. Haitink has staunchly favoured the revised version. In its original garb, I'd say Mahler's Klagende Lied is not that much different form Sibelius' Kullervo symphony.
Yes, I'm sure unless the person who uploaded the video is lying. It's too small to see from my post, though. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Eto2qXJhuQ

and the scores says this, btw:
QuotePublisher Info.:

Vienna: Universal Edition, n.d. [1901].
Reprint - Mineola, NY: Dover Publications, 2001.
Copyright:

Public Domain
I had a hard time following along until I remembered  that he rewrote it a bunch of times  :o ;D
Do no one should try to put too much effort to follow along, although there are some interesting spots where you can see he didn't do much else besides reorchestrate it, so you might see an oboe line in the score being played by strings in the video.

But yeah, supposedly the jury to which he sent the score to for a competition was headed by Brahms. Just listen to the first video, and imagine Brahms going crazy about it...... hmmm, is it just me or is that hard to imagine?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 18, 2008, 02:48:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KVd7NToZiaw


Quote

Mahler Plays Mahler

"Ging Heut' Morgens ubers Feld"
"Ich ging mit Lust durch einen grunen Wald"
Symphony # 4 (4th movement)
Symphony # 5 (1st movement)

Gustav Mahler, piano
Pickwick CD GLRS 101

treble clef graphicGustav Mahler represents one of the keenest losses to early classical recordings. Despite his present fame as the last of the great German symphonic composers, during his lifetime Mahler was better known as a profoundly influential conductor. His obsessive intensity on the podium fueled headstrong, expressive performances of huge individuality. Mahler was the last and perhaps most extraordinary of all the authentic late-romantic conductors, who never hesitated to mold or even rewrite music to their own taste. Mahler records would provide an enormously valuable key toward reconstructing and understanding the lost performing style of his era. And yet, Mahler died in his prime in 1911, at age 51, without having recorded.

So what's this? Nothing less than Mahler himself at the keyboard--and in digital stereo!

True, these are piano rolls, a medium with a deservedly bad reputation. The integrity of many rolls was compromised by extensive doctoring, both to correct wrong or mistimed notes and to "enhance" the original with new harmonies, runs and doublings. Even when uncorrupted, standard rolls had no quality, as all notes sounded at the same volume and with the same flat, staccato tone. Fine for a barroom, but hardly genuine art.

Mahler's rolls, though, were made in the new Welte-Mignon system, perfected in Germany in 1903. How did it work? We really don't know, since the proprietary process was a closely-guarded secret and the equipment was secured after each session. Apparently, the master was made with ink markings that were then punched as two sets of holes--one for each note and the other for its volume. The latter was a crucial component which transformed the bland mechanical clanking of the traditional piano roll into a genuine performance which replicated the accents, dynamics and overall atmosphere of the original.

Reproduction is achieved not through a player piano, but with a so-called "vorsetzer" unit, which actually plays a concert grand using felt-tipped "fingers" activated by varying degrees of pneumatic pressure triggered by the sets of holes. The result is uncannily realistic and far superior to the limited range of the acoustic disc in conveying the "touch" of an artist. Except for a slight pumping background sound of the pneumatic bellows, the present disc has the full nuance of a genuine performance.

Mahler recorded all four of his rolls in a single session on November 9, 1905. He chose two of his songs, the vocal finale to his Symphony # 4 and the first movement of his Symphony # 5 (which he had completed the previous year), all in arrangements for piano solo. The readings are fast, impulsive and full of highly individual touches, presumably suggesting the manner in which Mahler intended his own works to be interpreted--far more akin to the hysterical passion of Horenstein or Bernstein than the cool modern approach of von Karajan or Haitink.

It may be unfair to infer Mahler's podium style, particularly with respect to other composer's works, from his piano rolls. It is far easier to whip up instantaneous interpretive extremes using only your own hands on a piano than to impart such impulsive desires to an entire ensemble. But whether or not Mahler actually conducted this way, the rolls are our only tangible evidence of his artistic ideals and thus provide invaluable guidance to modern performers who strive for authenticity. And such authenticity is important, as composers of every era wrote with the intention that their works would be performed by artists familiar with the aesthetic norms of their time.

The Mahler rolls themselves consume only 26 minutes of the CD. Also included are performances by modern vocalists using Mahler's rolls as accompaniment. The disc concludes with a half-hour 1960s program of reminiscences of Mahler by retired associates. While this extra stuff is interesting to hear once, it's hardly of the same import as Mahler's performances. The CD would have been a far better value had it included Welte-Mignon rolls by Debussy, Saint-Saens, Grieg or other crucial but underrecorded masters whose performing styles defined their era.


Copyright 1994 by Peter Gutmann



non-piano roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/gdMWb8l3MP0&NR=1
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 18, 2008, 03:15:19 PM
it's tough out there, being a trumpet player.


http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/fgzsPoTp2iA&feature=related
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on September 20, 2008, 01:34:31 AM
The new Gergiev 7th is getting excellent reviews. I rather thought I would stop at his 1st and 6th....but I can see the piggy-bank will get another little raid. It sounds like it will be an excellent contrast with the Bertini and Abbado Chicago versions. Has anyone heard the Gergiev yet?

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2008, 04:33:05 AM
Quote from: knight on September 20, 2008, 01:34:31 AM
The new Gergiev 7th is getting excellent reviews. I rather thought I would stop at his 1st and 6th....but I can see the piggy-bank will get another little raid. It sounds like it will be an excellent contrast with the Bertini and Abbado Chicago versions. Has anyone heard the Gergiev yet?

Mike

I haven't heard Gergiev's Seventh, but if you want a performance that really contrasts with Bertini and Abbado, let me suggest Klemperer  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on September 21, 2008, 02:43:08 AM
Sarge, Thanks....I am such a sucker in this corner of the market. I always think I have enough, then another enticing suggestion comes along. I have Klemperer's DLvDE and 2nd, I don't know why I have not sought out more, I found both of those performances to be as good as any.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on September 21, 2008, 04:33:23 PM
I have the live recording from March 7, 2008, at the Barbican, which is where this CD is sourced from, I believe, although I wonder if they also did touchup sessions because there are some serious accidents in some places. The most "obvious" is at the beginning of the finale where the trumpets try to play it like Star Wars, but fail rather heroically...after all, Murphy retired last year.
Still, overall, the playing is predictably very good. The booboos that are there can be excused because it is a very "live", very flexible and involved performance. It is also rather well directed which, I have to admit, suprised me since this is a piece which many conductors have a hard time figuring out and making it work coherently. Gergiev, with his well deserved reputation of being everywhere, but also leaving some of the prep work to assistants and showing up at the last minute, is not someone who I would have expected to be able to shine some light into this complex and, at times, a little incoherent score. But he holds everything well together and makes his musical points.
So overall, this is a rather good performance. But then again, especially when you listen to it a second time, you notice that as good as things look, they mostly happen on the surface and there is little attention to the fine inner detail and the layering of textures. Rather, the melodic surfaces are cleverly shaped and highlighted, but there is not much probing into the depths of the music.
The high level of playing, despite the occasional live booboos, is not really something which makes this performance particularly interesting since that kind of playing is pretty much standard in many places today.
This must have been a nice concert to go to, but it is not really a recording I "need" to have to refer to. There are a number of overall much more interesting ones.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daedalus on September 22, 2008, 12:43:21 PM
Good evening all,

I was wondering what you all make of Mahler's 10th Symphony (Deryck Cooke performing version)?

I have been saving the 10th Symphony as the last piece of Mahler's music that I discover. To be honest, I have been putting it off for a long time now and finally decided to give it a go after listening to other composers and having a little break from Mahler.

I knew the first movement very well already as it has been an extra in some of the recordings of the 9th that I have purchased. I understand this to be the only movement of the symphony that was fully orchestrated by Mahler.

The question I have is, how much of the rest of the symphony is actually Mahler?

From what I've read, the symphony has been rejected (bar the first movement) by a majority of Mahler interpreters, such as Walter, Bernstein, Abbado, Haitink, Boulez, Kubelik. Some even refuse to perform the opening movement.

I have only listened to the piece once and have yet to make my mind up on the issue. On the whole, I feel that there are some very Mahlerian moments and his musical idiom occasionally shines through. There are some great passages of music although I have yet to get a feeling for how the overall piece ranks in comparison to the rest of his symphony cycle (i.e. in my personal opinion).

As a huge lover of Mahler's music, I had to hear this symphony. I do wonder about Mahler's intentions for the symphony and about Cooke's decision making process for the choices he has made in terms of orchestration in the movements that were scarcely completed.

I would be really interested to hear some of your opinions about this controversial symphony.

D.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on September 22, 2008, 01:13:51 PM
I'm a huge fan of the Tenth Symphony, even if to my brain and ears it feels like (roughly) "90 percent Mahler."  (Or maybe 80%.)  To me the bottom line is: would I rather "not hear" the score?  No, since as you note, there is plenty of Mahler buried in there.  I just listen with the process firmly understood: that it is a second person's fleshing out of Mahler's notes.  After hearing the piece over time, I have gotten to like it immensely.

Although I can totally empathize with those who debate whether the Tenth is "real" Mahler, personally I just like the music, especially since it hints at even more radical developments if he were to have lived and written more symphonies.  So in addition to the musical pleasure, there is some historical value, even knowing that Cooke made some choices that Mahler probably wouldn't have.  (And of course, we will never know.) 

I initially heard the first movement and think it stands fine on its own (for those who want to perform only the completed one), but I do like (and respect) what Cooke achieved.  As long as I'm aware that what I'm hearing is basically "Mahler-Cooke," I don't mind that it's essentially a collaborative project. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on September 22, 2008, 01:21:59 PM
That's so po-mo of you, Bruce  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on September 22, 2008, 01:24:20 PM
I should add that I've heard the Tenth live at least twice that I can recall, by two conductors who make a very good case for it: Chailly and Rattle.  The latter, especially, makes it sound incredibly modern, really emphasizing its weird sonorities and structure.  

Just saw Karl's post... ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 22, 2008, 03:33:03 PM
The only other non-Cooke recording I've heard is this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ljYoZDFIL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Just stick with the Cooke.  :-\
The only differences I remember hearing were orchestration and a few dynamic adjustments, like near the end, when you hear that powerful F# major chord with the G# on top, it's actually quiet in this version, which seemed odd to me. The inner movements are probably very different, but I don't listen to them much so I'm not sure. They don't seem that great, but since they're so incomplete I'm sure he could've made them as good as anything else given time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 22, 2008, 03:46:38 PM
Quote from: Daedalus on September 22, 2008, 12:43:21 PM

I would be really interested to hear some of your opinions about this controversial symphony.

D.
I think it is a great work, regardless of whether it is Cooke, Wheeler, or anyone else putting the finishing touches on it. The ideas and themes are all by Mahler and no one can disguise the genius, the symmetry, and the spontaneity of the music. If you don't think Mahler is capable of matching the level of inspiration he had shown in the 9th symphony then this work will convince you otherwise.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Senta on September 22, 2008, 06:41:47 PM
I like the 10th a LOT, as long as you appreciate it for what it is, you will discover there are a lot of amazing ideas, with some some differing opinions on where they lead in the various completions. Beside the often used Cooke version, I enjoy Barshai's recontruction attempt, recorded with the JDP and paired with M5. I find it well-thought out and it is also very well-played, very involved.

Just saw this:

Quote from: papy on July 06, 2008, 04:04:28 AM
A new 5th out last month :

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/611painH%2B6L._SS400_.jpg)

Short review here, off the Times :

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article4248791.ece (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article4248791.ece)

Well, huh...I didn't know this existed. I'd be curious to hear it. I saw van Zweden do this recently for the Dallas season opening ...my first time to hear the 5th live.

I didn't know what to expect never having heard van Zweden's work, but it was an incredibly thrilling performance live, often for the sheer derring-do. If the 2nd mvmt is "moving stormily"...these sailors must have gotten rather seasick, because I have perhaps never heard such extremes of tempo there. He pushed them very hard tempo-wise in the outbursts, but the orchestra matched every bit of the energy...their chemistry was great. The 1st mvmt had these turn-on-a-dime tempo changes too, and I thought the opening especially was rushed, I prefer a slower Trauermarsch myself. The last 3 mvmts were excellent though, very musical and not as frantic, the Adagietto was taken at a comfortable tempo and had great dynamic work.

My only real complaint was just this feeling of oh-so-closeness in the 1st two mvmts, as he would accelerate so much, and generate such energy from the orchestra...but then get carried away and not pull back at the end of phrases to let that energy pummel you...lots of tension with little release. But on the whole, it was pretty darn good, and played extremely well too, with lots of exuberant and colorful sound from all sections.

Is that 5th only available at the LPO website? I saw his Beethoven mentioned, he has already recorded LvB 5th and 7th with the Dallas SO, sold at their site. I didn't get it while there, as those pieces are just so overrecorded, but it might be something to check out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on September 23, 2008, 03:31:22 AM
So these are "completions" and not 'simply' orchestrations of complete Mahler compositions?

But the first movement of the Tenth is entirely Mahler's work?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2008, 04:09:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 23, 2008, 03:31:22 AM
So these are "completions" and not 'simply' orchestrations of complete Mahler compositions?

But the first movement of the Tenth is entirely Mahler's work?

"Mahler's original manuscript consists of all five movements laid out and numbered, with every bar continuous from first to last, in four-stave open score with a few instrumental cues. The first half of the symphony, up to the thirtieth bar of the Purgatorio is also set forth in orchestral score." Jack Diether, from his notes on the Ormandy CD.

Cooke didn't consider his work to be a "completion" but a performing version of the sketch. He did flesh out parts (particularly the last two movements) and orchestrated the parts that Mahler hadn't. I've never had a problem with this. It sounds like Mahler to me (because it is, essentially) and I'm very glad Cooke and others have given us the opportunity to hear, if not Mahler's final thoughts, his first thoughts anyway. And thanks goes to Ormandy, too, who bucked the trend within his generation of conductors and gave us the first and (to my ears) still the best performance of this astonishing symphony.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on September 23, 2008, 04:13:16 AM
Many thanks for the info, Sarge!  I think I was misled by PW's "ideas and themes" comment, which suggested to me that other hands were dithering with 'em.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 23, 2008, 04:26:23 AM
Yes, I was going to type much the same as Sarge did, so instead let me simply emphasize it: Cooke explicitly said that he didn't want to offer 'his' version or 'his' completion of Mahler 10 - all he wanted to do was to provide the bare minimum to make Mahler's short score audible in an orchestral garb of the general sort Mahler wrote. He was well aware that if Mahler had finished the piece it would bear little resemblance to his [Cooke's] rendition. So to be fair to Mahler and to Cooke it's best to listen to Cooke's version with this in mind.

I have the full score to Cooke's edition, which includes, at the bottom of the page, Mahler's original sketch, exactly as he wrote it, crossings-out, arrows and all, but type-set so that it's easily legible. From the relationship between this and the full score above it it's clear how restrained Cooke was. What's more, the Cooke score simply doesn't look like Mahler - it's much barer, sparser, and often scanty on the figurations that Mahler would undoubtedly have devised for the interior parts. Cooke was well aware of this, of course.

Barshai fleshes things out a lot more, which is probably why some people seem to prefer him on a visceral level as a listening experience (I do myself). But in order to do so he takes more liberties with Mahler's incomplete short score - very musical ones, of course. There's no problem with this imaginative filling-out, but it's important to understand that it was never the direction which Cooke, with his more musicological attitude, wished to take.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 23, 2008, 04:30:32 AM
For illustration, a page of my copy of the Mahler-Cooke, as used long ago on the mystery scores thread:

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on September 23, 2008, 04:33:03 AM
And, many thanks to you also, Luke!

I have some form of the Mahler Tenth at home, thanks to a kindly neighbor.  And I recall vividly how well I enjoyed the Ninth when Levine led the BSO in that 'un, last season . . . I should make some time for the Tenth soon.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 23, 2008, 01:01:48 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 23, 2008, 04:30:32 AM
For illustration, a page of my copy of the Mahler-Cooke, as used long ago on the mystery scores thread:


You got this from a library, didn't you? You can buy it online for a over a hundred bucks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 23, 2008, 02:55:08 PM
No, it's my own copy. I found it in a second hand bookshop for £5, along with many other goodies that day, I recall....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 23, 2008, 02:59:26 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 23, 2008, 02:55:08 PM
No, it's my own copy. I found it in a second hand bookshop for £5, along with many other goodies that day, I recall....
:-X
where the heck do you go shopping, dreamland?

oh yeah, and a few years ago i found a Penderecki score at a yardsale for tree fiddy........
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on September 24, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
M, Thanks for the review of the 7th. I have been away for a few days and had five minutes to dash into an HMV shop....did so, grabbed the disc and when I got to my hotel I opened the bag to discover I had grabbed the 6th....which I already have....and the 7th remains ilusive.

I will return it via another branch soon and I will try to come home with the right one. The reviews I have read don't mention any accidents in the playing, so I guess it got tidied up.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on September 24, 2008, 08:55:51 PM
Quote from: knight on September 24, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
M, Thanks for the review of the 7th. I have been away for a few days and had five minutes to dash into an HMV shop....did so, grabbed the disc

Well, apparently, you haven't actually read my review.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on September 24, 2008, 10:33:24 PM
Yes I did, (Here I would insert an emoticon that rolls its eyes), but I read other and more positive reviews and it seems like it will give me a real contrast with the two versions I have.....and it does not cost much to try it out; roughly what I spend in London on a sandwich and a drink. From having listened to the broadcast; I won't however be going near his 8th.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Guido on September 25, 2008, 07:05:16 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 23, 2008, 02:59:26 PM
:-X
where the heck do you go shopping, dreamland?

oh yeah, and a few years ago i found a Penderecki score at a yardsale for tree fiddy........

I think I know the place that Luke is referring to, and in many ways it is!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 25, 2008, 07:29:17 AM
In this case, I doubt you are - it was a now-closed-down secondhand bookshop in Bury St Edmunds; the same glut of scores also contained (among other things) a few major John Adams scores, £5 each (Harmonium, Harmonielehre, Chairman Dances, Shaker Loops.....); I bought them all even though I already had some of them  ;D Can't harm to have two copies of Harmonium, can it?  0:)

But the one I believe you are referring  to - Brian Jordan's in Cambridge - is probably the scene of my greatest score buying triumphs. The complete Des Canyons aux Etoiles (all three volumes) for £20; Turangalila for £8; Takemitsu's A Flock Descends into the Pentagonal Garden for £5. And so on....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Guido on September 25, 2008, 08:21:50 AM
Yes Brian Jordan's is what I was referring to. A fantastic place. Haven't quite got things as good as yours yet but I did get the full score to Bliss' cello concerto for £3 (my best buy so far) and several cello/piano pieces for even less.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 25, 2008, 08:25:52 AM
You realise that if you and I both went 'upstairs at Brian's' at the same time we would automatically become sworn enemies fighting over the same scores. Either that or some strange space-time thing would happen and the universe would implode.

I forgot - Suk's A Summer's Tale, a huge and gorgeous-looking score, £15. That one made me very happy. Oh, and at the Bury shop where I got the Mahler 10 and all the Adams, Elgar's Gerontius in the big critical edition that sells for about £100. For £5.  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Guido on September 25, 2008, 08:51:26 AM
QuoteYou realise that if you and I both went 'upstairs at Brian's' at the same time we would automatically become sworn enemies fighting over the same scores. Either that or some strange space-time thing would happen and the universe would implode.

Fact.

Quote
I forgot - Suk's A Summer's Tale, a huge and gorgeous-looking score, £15. That one made me very happy. Oh, and at the Bury shop where I got the Mahler 10 and all the Adams, Elgar's Gerontius in the big critical edition that sells for about £100. For £5.

That's a truly astonishing find!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 25, 2008, 10:56:34 AM
You know what, screw you guys.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 25, 2008, 11:05:04 AM
Greg, didn't the mystery score thread give you a faintest clue that I'm a bit of a score addict?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on September 25, 2008, 11:06:36 AM
Greg, dude, keep cool!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on September 25, 2008, 11:30:38 AM
I'm so jealous, I might have to devise a plan to break into Luke's house and steal all of his scores.......


pst, pst, Karl, you got any ideas?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 25, 2008, 11:42:32 AM
An easier option would be to wait until every page of my scores has appeared on the mystery scores thread. May take quite a while, however.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on September 25, 2008, 09:02:37 PM
lukeottevanger, is your avatar in any way related to East Asian philosophy? I think I've seen that symbol somewhere, and it's got something to do with .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Joe_Campbell on September 25, 2008, 09:47:05 PM
lol...I look forward to his answer! ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 26, 2008, 12:32:36 AM
In some ways, and very consciously, yes. And in other ways, no. See my composer's thread from this page and on for a couple more... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,44.msg225088.html#msg225088)  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on September 26, 2008, 01:16:03 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 26, 2008, 12:32:36 AM
In some ways, and very consciously, yes. And in other ways, no. See my composer's thread from this page and on for a couple more... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,44.msg225088.html#msg225088)  ;D

Interesting, the dialogue between Emperor Wu and the Chan/Zen teacher is especially so. Thanks.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on September 28, 2008, 08:21:36 AM
I'm listening to Mahler's second for the second time in about 10 hours... that's surprising and shocking... this hasn't even happened with Beethoven! (That's probably because I didn't have a recording handy (CD or downloaded) when I listened to those works for the first time. ;) )

I would've laughed my rear end off at this thought a week ago!!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on September 30, 2008, 05:03:48 PM
I am going to hear Haitink do Mahler 2 with the CSO in a few weeks. Back in 1995/96 Haitink conducted this same work with the CSO which was his last guest appearance with the CSO before being appointed Principal Conductor in 2006. I'm excited to hear them reprise this work. I was in collge when they did it the last time and it was my first live Mahler 2 - unforgettable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on September 30, 2008, 07:43:08 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on September 30, 2008, 05:03:48 PM
I am going to hear Haitink do Mahler 2 with the CSO in a few weeks. Back in 1995/96 Haitink conducted this same work with the CSO which was his last guest appearance with the CSO before being appointed Principal Conductor in 2006. I'm excited to hear them reprise this work. I was in collge when they did it the last time and it was my first live Mahler 2 - unforgettable.

Lucky you...hope you enjoy it, but please do report back!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Senta on October 01, 2008, 03:45:26 PM
The world is right again...  0:)  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 01, 2008, 07:36:54 PM
Quote from: Senta on October 01, 2008, 03:45:26 PM
The world is right again...  0:)  ;)  ;D

Meaning so predictable ?  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on October 02, 2008, 08:35:15 PM
Quote from: imperfection on September 30, 2008, 07:43:08 PM
Lucky you...hope you enjoy it, but please do report back!

I hope he enjoys it, too, but oddly, I said that before, but my good wishes and O Mensch' response were deleted.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Joe_Campbell on October 02, 2008, 08:55:11 PM
And mine in the midst as well, though admittedly, it wasn't really a needed comment.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on October 03, 2008, 09:45:48 AM
So back to Mahler.  Here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2008/Jul-Dec08/mahler2509.htm) is an interesting review by Bernard Jacobson of the Mahler 8th in Seattle, with Gerard Schwarz and the Seattle Symphony.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on October 03, 2008, 10:14:39 PM
M Forever, I recall that you had a very high opinion on a Mahler 3 recording, but I forgot which one it was. You  said it was one of the best things you've ever heard by anyone, or something to that effect. Was that Chailly/RCO or Boulez or someone else? I want to check it out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on October 03, 2008, 11:33:49 PM
Boulez/WP and Abbado/WP are my top recordings of this symphony because they both get the fairy tale athmosphere and lyrical "Wunderhorn" tone of the music totally "right" and manage to pay attention to all the fine detail while at the same time, everything is put into context. Plus the sound palette of the WP fits this music perfectly, especially the Vienna F horns which are exactly the kind of instrument Mahler heard in his day, and the horns are very prominent in this work. There are many good recordings of this music, but these really stand out clearly. The Chailly recording is very competently done, but I found it rather disappointing because it takes a far too generalized view of the music and only emphasizes the darker, massive aspects of it at the expense of fine detail and lyrical "story telling". The massiveness of the music happens more or less "automatically" in the right places because of the sheer numbers involved and Mahler's extremely carefully layered orchestration. The "devil" is in the detail!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on October 04, 2008, 12:03:55 AM
Quote from: M forever on October 03, 2008, 11:33:49 PM
Boulez/WP and Abbado/WP are my top recordings of this symphony because they both get the fairy tale athmosphere and lyrical "Wunderhorn" tone of the music totally "right" and manage to pay attention to all the fine detail while at the same time, everything is put into context. Plus the sound palette of the WP fits this music perfectly, especially the Vienna F horns which are exactly the kind of instrument Mahler heard in his day, and the horns are very prominent in this work. There are many good recordings of this music, but these really stand out clearly. The Chailly recording is very competently done, but I found it rather disappointing because it takes a far too generalized view of the music and only emphasizes the darker, massive aspects of it at the expense of fine detail and lyrical "story telling". The massiveness of the music happens more or less "automatically" in the right places because of the sheer numbers involved and Mahler's extremely carefully layered orchestration. The "devil" is in the detail!

Thanks for explaining the reason you like them, have you also heard Boulez's 2007 live performance with the Staatskapelle Berlin? The recording is available on symphony share and I would want to know your opinion on it before downloading. Then if I really like it, I'll buy the Boulez/WP.  :D

As for the Abbado/WP, is the one that is part of his complete DG cycle, with the Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Jessye Norman as soprano, 1982?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on October 04, 2008, 12:32:57 AM
Yes. There is also one later recording with the BP, but the earlier WP recording is more "o the point".

I have the live Boulez recording from 2007 but didn't really get to listen to it yet. The version I have doesn't have so good sound (IIRC, I got it from Operashare). I don't know if the one offered on Symphonyshare is the exact same one, or from a better source. The DG recording, BTW, is also extremely well recorded. It almost sounds like you are in the Muskverein, in row 12 or so.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 21, 2008, 09:34:47 AM
M Forever's above comment on DGG's engineering certainly holds true with my recent purchase: the Boulez  Mahler  Eighth Symphony.  The organ at the beginning gives the bass in my surround-sound system a work-out it has rarely had!  Plus the clarity of the lines! Marvelous conducting on the part of Pierre Boulez and on that of DGG technicians.

Highly recommended!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on October 21, 2008, 02:37:27 PM
Does the organ come from the right side?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on October 21, 2008, 08:01:55 PM
After watching the Resurrection DVD with Staatskapelle Berlin, I find Boulez surprisingly clear in his directions (probably not just only in Mahler), whether in his gestures or musical intent. He is so determined with the way the piece is going to go, you could hear and see that right off the bat. I find that quite interesting as he is a very modernist, difficult composer and musician in general anyways. But then, I wonder, would his gestures really be similar in scope when he's doing Bartok, with all that poly rhythmic stuff going on? And 2nd Viennese school works? I should see how he does it sometime.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on October 21, 2008, 08:16:05 PM
Quote from: imperfection on October 21, 2008, 08:01:55 PM
But then, I wonder, would his gestures really be similar in scope when he's doing Bartok, with all that poly rhythmic stuff going on? 

Yes. Because orchestral musicians aren't idiots who need the conductor to show them every single rhythmic figure and subdivision. They are highly trained and experienced professionals who can play all that stuff without somebody doing the human metronome for them. In order for the orchestra to play together, they just need the conductor to outline the basic tempo. Actually, they don't even need that. A lot of the the time, orchestras don't play together because, but in spite of the conductor. Most of the coordination is not done by following the man with the stick (or in Boulez' case, without the stick), but by ear and feeling.

Where the good conductors come in is when they shape the tempo and phrasing and expression flexibly, and good conductors often show that in a simple, unmistakeable, to-the-point way which doesn't look all that "spectacular" to the uninformed observers who think the conductor is there to act out the music and the musicians are there to translate his act into sound. But to the informed observers - including the musicians -, that is what counts and what makes the difference between a stiff time beater, or a podium clown, or somebody who looks like he has a constant spastic attack - and a really good conductor who knows what's going on and who can lead a large group of people in coordinated and alive music making.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2008, 10:16:31 AM
Quote from: M forever on October 21, 2008, 02:37:27 PM
Does the organ come from the right side?

Concerning the Boulez/DGG  Mahler Eighth: The organ seemingly comes from everywhere, but especially from the bass which I have on the floor on the left/center, because of the nature of the room and our furniture.

And on your last comment: one wonders what Mahler and other conductors looked like from that era, as freedom of phrasing and rubato were supposedly much more evident back then.  I have seen silhouettes of Mahler conducting, and they seem fairly espressivo.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on October 22, 2008, 10:27:09 AM
Maybe he was mugging for the silhouettist  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2008, 10:45:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2008, 10:27:09 AM
Maybe he was mugging for the silhouettist  ;D

Wocka Wocka!   0:)

Let's see...Mahler mugging... :D  Hmmm!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on October 22, 2008, 08:44:10 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 22, 2008, 10:16:31 AM
Concerning the Boulez/DGG  Mahler Eighth: The organ seemingly comes from everywhere, but especially from the bass which I have on the floor on the left/center, because of the nature of the room and our furniture.

I see now the recording was actually made in the Jesus-Christus-Kirche in Berlin as a studio recording. I thought it was made in the Philharmonie where the organ is on the right side of the hall, that's why I wondered if it came from there in the recording. But obviously not, because that was made in a different location.

Quote from: Cato on October 22, 2008, 10:16:31 AM
And on your last comment: one wonders what Mahler and other conductors looked like from that era, as freedom of phrasing and rubato were supposedly much more evident back then.  I have seen silhouettes of Mahler conducting, and they seem fairly espressivo.

That doesn't really have anything to do with my last comment.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on October 22, 2008, 09:51:29 PM
Quote from: M forever on October 21, 2008, 08:16:05 PM
Yes. Because orchestral musicians aren't idiots who need the conductor to show them every single rhythmic figure and subdivision. They are highly trained and experienced professionals who can play all that stuff without somebody doing the human metronome for them. In order for the orchestra to play together, they just need the conductor to outline the basic tempo. Actually, they don't even need that. A lot of the the time, orchestras don't play together because, but in spite of the conductor. Most of the coordination is not done by following the man with the stick (or in Boulez' case, without the stick), but by ear and feeling.

Where the good conductors come in is when they shape the tempo and phrasing and expression flexibly, and good conductors often show that in a simple, unmistakeable, to-the-point way which doesn't look all that "spectacular" to the uninformed observers who think the conductor is there to act out the music and the musicians are there to translate his act into sound. But to the informed observers - including the musicians -, that is what counts and what makes the difference between a stiff time beater, or a podium clown, or somebody who looks like he has a constant spastic attack - and a really good conductor who knows what's going on and who can lead a large group of people in coordinated and alive music making.

What do you think about the conductors that have seemingly incomprehensible gestures, like Furtwangler?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: M forever on October 22, 2008, 09:57:20 PM
Furtwängler didn't have "seemingly imcomprehensive" gestures. For the musicians who played under him, it was very clear what he wanted. But it may not be that easy to understand for or explain to people who don't understand the culture of music making that was behind that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on October 29, 2008, 01:38:31 PM
Free with my Gramophone subscription mag came a sampler of Super Audio Hybrid discs. The tracks are from various independent labels. The first track is from a new Mahler 5, Jansons and the Concertgebouw. We get seven minutes from the opening. The sound is stunning,up front and rich, I like what Jansons does in that brief few minutes, so I have ordered it. It is on the orchestra's own label.

The release will be around the middle of November.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on October 29, 2008, 02:22:01 PM
Quote from: knight on October 29, 2008, 01:38:31 PM
Free with my Gramophone subscription mag came a sampler of Super Audio Hybrid discs. The tracks are from various independent labels. The first track is from a new Mahler 5, Jansons and the Concertgebouw. We get seven minutes from the opening. The sound is stunning,up front and rich, I like what Jansons does in that brief few minutes, so I have ordered it. It is on the orchestra's own label.

The release will be around the middle of November.

That sounds interesting, Mike. Any more samples worth mentioning?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on October 29, 2008, 02:47:01 PM
Kurt Nystedt: Imortal Bach sung a'capella by Ensemble 96. I have a different disc of theirs, it is a remarkable choir and the arrangements take unexpected twists. That would be well worth investigating, though there are no actual details of the tracks.

There is also a Nielsen disc from Dacapo, Danish National SO, Orchestral Music, lovely piece from Maskarade, I seem to recall the disc got a lot of praise when it came out.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on October 29, 2008, 04:07:20 PM
Quote from: knight on October 29, 2008, 02:47:01 PM
Kurt Nystedt: Imortal Bach sung a'capella by Ensemble 96. I have a different disc of theirs, it is a remarkable choir and the arrangements take unexpected twists. That would be well worth investigating, though there are no actual details of the tracks.

There is also a Nielsen disc from Dacapo, Danish National SO, Orchestral Music, lovely piece from Maskarade, I seem to recall the disc got a lot of praise when it came out.

Mike

Thanks!  :)
The Dacapo disc is on the wish list for some time (as is Langgaard's Antikrist on the same label).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on October 29, 2008, 04:11:09 PM
I bought Lannggard's Spheres music and throughly enjoyed it; but when I bought some symphonies, I found them very conventional and rather dull.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2008, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: knight on October 29, 2008, 04:11:09 PM
I bought Lannggard's Spheres music and throughly enjoyed it; but when I bought some symphonies, I found them very conventional and rather dull.

Mike
I found both the symphonies and Spheres not just dull, but unbearably dull, alsolutely positively unlistenable. Somehow this hack is herald as some kind of "composer" is beyond me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on October 31, 2008, 12:57:10 AM
Quote from: knight on October 29, 2008, 04:11:09 PM
I bought Lannggard's Spheres music and throughly enjoyed it; but when I bought some symphonies, I found them very conventional and rather dull.

I still haven't gotten that one.
Concerning the symphonies, I'm also rather underwhelmed. After the bombastic majesty of the first symphony and anxious piety of Fra Dybet (a superb Segerstam issue on Chandos) the (few) others I've tried didn't catch my fancy as much. I'll possibly try the new Dausgaard or some other Segerstam issues in the future.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daedalus on November 24, 2008, 04:44:57 AM
Could anyone tell me where I might be able to find the words to Des Knaben Wunderhorn online?

I can't seem to find them anywhere.  :(

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on November 24, 2008, 05:01:27 AM
Quote from: Daedalus on November 24, 2008, 04:44:57 AM
Could anyone tell me where I might be able to find the words to Des Knaben Wunderhorn online?

First volume here (http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/?id=5&xid=3246&kapitel=1#gb_found), second volume here (http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/?id=5&xid=3247&kapitel=1#gb_found), third volume here (http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/?id=5&xid=3248&kapitel=1#gb_found). Enjoy!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daedalus on November 24, 2008, 05:04:20 AM
Thank you Florestan.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on November 24, 2008, 05:06:55 AM
Quote from: Daedalus on November 24, 2008, 05:04:20 AM
Thank you Florestan.  :)

Don't mention.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daedalus on November 24, 2008, 05:28:01 AM
I also made another discovery after some more searching:

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/

It is called 'The Lied an Art Song Texts Page'. A good resource and not just for Mahler actually.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 24, 2008, 08:13:39 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 29, 2008, 04:42:46 PM
I found both the symphonies and Spheres not just dull, but unbearably dull, alsolutely positively unlistenable. Somehow this hack is herald as some kind of "composer" is beyond me.

I find both the symphonies and Spheres to be not just interesting, but intensely interesting, absolutely positively listenable. How this wonderful composer got lost during the twentieth century is beyond me. It's good to see his music is finally being heralded with many fine recordings.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 24, 2008, 01:20:08 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 24, 2008, 08:13:39 AM
I find both the symphonies and Spheres to be not just interesting, but intensely interesting, absolutely positively listenable. How this wonderful composer got lost during the twentieth century is beyond me. It's good to see his music is finally being heralded with many fine recordings.

Sarge

I love Langgaard's music, too. You mustn't expect Langgaard to develop, though. He is almost post-modern, any style can suit his purpose. His symphonies are therefore a varied bunch in all senses of the word (both positive and negative), and they live in two centuries. Some are backward-looking, but very appealingly so (7, 8, 9 for instance); one is visionary (6), another (15) is in two movements, the first of which is filled with Angst, while the second sets a sturdy marine poem; one symphony is more a piano concerto (3), another one like a Straussian tone-poem (10). And I could go on.

I like them all, but for different reasons. Looking critically I'd say Langgaard's 'best' symphonies are 4, 6, 10, 14 and 16. But if you love his voice, you'll find beauty in everything he wrote. And there are his piano pieces and his giant organ work Messis, too... In short - I don't find Langgaard 'dull' at all. But that this rather quirky and erratic 'ecstatic outsider' from Denmark isn't to everyone's taste I can well imagine...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 26, 2008, 05:25:53 PM
Good comment, Johan. My own taste runs more towards 'early Langgaard' (symphonies 1-5 for example), but there's tons of interesting music in there - as opposed to the tons of notes some Langgaard contemporaries have bequeathed us... ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on December 16, 2008, 07:24:32 PM
i leave a Christmas gift for all Mahler fans:

http://www.billandellie.com/sounds/mahler7.mp3
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: zamyrabyrd on December 25, 2008, 08:58:30 AM
Quote from: G$ on December 16, 2008, 07:24:32 PM
i leave a Christmas gift for all Mahler fans:
http://www.billandellie.com/sounds/mahler7.mp3

Further to Mahler and Christmas, there was a nice surprise under the tree with Myung-Wung Chung on Rai International conducting Mahler's 4th Symphony at La Scala. Apparently today, the 25th it was a rerun but should come on again.

http://www.international.rai.it/tv/programmi/scheda.php?id=638
su Raiitalia 1 mercoledì 24 dicembre 2008 alle 17,30 ora italiana; su Raitalia 2 giovedì 25 dicembre alle 1.45 ora italiana; su Raitalia 3 venerdì 26 dicembre alle 10.30 ora italiana


I really liked the way he held the orchestra together like the center of a timepiece, drawing the energy towards himself and back again, some talent he has...

ZB
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on December 28, 2008, 06:01:48 PM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on December 25, 2008, 08:58:30 AM
Further to Mahler and Christmas, there was a nice surprise under the tree with Myung-Wung Chung on Rai International conducting Mahler's 4th Symphony at La Scala. Apparently today, the 25th it was a rerun but should come on again.

http://www.international.rai.it/tv/programmi/scheda.php?id=638
su Raiitalia 1 mercoledì 24 dicembre 2008 alle 17,30 ora italiana; su Raitalia 2 giovedì 25 dicembre alle 1.45 ora italiana; su Raitalia 3 venerdì 26 dicembre alle 10.30 ora italiana


I really liked the way he held the orchestra together like the center of a timepiece, drawing the energy towards himself and back again, some talent he has...

ZB
I'm sure this was a better "gift" than mine.  >:D ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on January 08, 2009, 06:18:51 PM
Forgive me....I know this question has probably been asked before.

I was absolutely spellbound by Mahler's 6th Symphony tonight, listening on headphones in peace & quiet.  Reading up on the work......it stated that the 2nd movement Scherzo and 3rd movement Andante Moderato (on my Tennstedt/LPO copy), was/is more traditionally played in the other order (2nd mvt. Andante Mod., 3rd mvt. Scherzo).  I cannot imagine listening to it in any other order than what I just heard...

Your thoughts?  What is the current practice of conductors these days?  I am hearing this symphony live in May 2009.   :) 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on January 08, 2009, 06:32:44 PM
NOT THAT QUESTION!

I'm kidding. It's a little too late for me to cogently divulge all my present knowledge on this issue. And it would, of course, still be quite limited compared to what a few other posters might have to say; particularly those with advanced theoretical knowledge.

But suffice to say, between Mengelberg's letters, Alma's insistences, and all sorts of other arguments that have come up to support one approach or the other, it does seem to be largely a matter of the individual conductor's preference, rather than based on any sort of consensus.

(Although there are "blocs" of conductors all doing it the same way.)


Personally, I can see it working both ways. I prefer the Scherzo second, likely because that's how I heard it the first time (via the Karajan/BPO recording, on DG), and how I also heard it the one time I've heard the symphony performed live.

But certainly, whether the progression is from one sort of "march" to another sort of march, then an introspective pause, then the finale - or alternatively a march, then quiet, then a march again into the finale, and towards the final "hammer-blows", it makes sense both ways.


Though obviously, I am both grossly oversimplifying the content, and entirely ignorant of tonal progressions from key X to key Y, etc. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on January 08, 2009, 06:36:28 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 08, 2009, 06:18:51 PM
Forgive me....I know this question has probably been asked before.

I was absolutely spellbound by Mahler's 6th Symphony tonight, listening on headphones in peace & quiet.  Reading up on the work......it stated that the 2nd movement Scherzo and 3rd movement Andante Moderato (on my Tennstedt/LPO copy), was/is more traditionally played in the other order (2nd mvt. Andante Mod., 3rd mvt. Scherzo).  I cannot imagine listening to it in any other order than what I just heard...

Your thoughts?  What is the current practice of conductors these days?  I am hearing this symphony live in May 2009.   :) 

IIRC, you are the fellow from B.C., right? The Vancouver symphony is playing it in June this year :) I'm planning to go too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on January 08, 2009, 07:07:20 PM
Quote from: imperfection on January 08, 2009, 06:36:28 PM
IIRC, you are the fellow from B.C., right? The Vancouver symphony is playing it in June this year :) I'm planning to go too.

Who is conducting? :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on January 09, 2009, 09:38:31 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 08, 2009, 06:18:51 PM
Forgive me....I know this question has probably been asked before.

I was absolutely spellbound by Mahler's 6th Symphony tonight, listening on headphones in peace & quiet.  Reading up on the work......it stated that the 2nd movement Scherzo and 3rd movement Andante Moderato (on my Tennstedt/LPO copy), was/is more traditionally played in the other order (2nd mvt. Andante Mod., 3rd mvt. Scherzo).  I cannot imagine listening to it in any other order than what I just heard...

Your thoughts?  What is the current practice of conductors these days?  I am hearing this symphony live in May 2009.   :) 

Wiki has a pretty good section on the continuing debate over the middle movements' order, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._6_(Mahler)#Structure).  And here (http://gatheringnote.com/2008/06/26/a-tragedy-in-four-movements/) is an interesting post by Zach Carstensen, on The Gathering Note.

Over the last few decades, I have heard the Sixth live a number of times (maybe 10 or 12) and generally the order has been Scherzo-Andante, which I prefer (scholarship aside for the moment).  Reversing the order to Andante-Scherzo brings perhaps a different kind of mounting hysteria, a longer wind-up to super-charge the finale.  But generally I'm in the camp preferring the Andante as a quiet break, which better sets up being emotionally pushed off the precipice at the end.

Have a great time...it's a marvelous experience live.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on January 09, 2009, 09:43:15 AM
Quote from: bhodges on January 09, 2009, 09:38:31 AM
Wiki has a pretty good section on the continuing debate over the middle movements' order, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._6_(Mahler)#Structure).  And here (http://gatheringnote.com/2008/06/26/a-tragedy-in-four-movements/) is an interesting post by Zach Carstensen, on The Gathering Note.

Over the last few decades, I have heard the Sixth live a number of times (maybe 10 or 12) and generally the order has been Scherzo-Andante, which I prefer (scholarship aside for the moment).  Reversing the order to Andante-Scherzo brings perhaps a different kind of mounting hysteria, a longer wind-up to super-charge the finale.  But generally I'm in the camp preferring the Andante as a quiet break, which better sets up being emotionally pushed off the precipice at the end.

Have a great time...it's a marvelous experience live.

--Bruce

Thank you Bruce!  :)  See, that's what I'm thinking too.....you need that emotional 'rest' or 'break' before that tornado of the fourth movement comes along.  That way too, the Andante is more 'centered' in the symphony  (Approx 35 minutes after the start and 33 minutes before the end.)  Obviously, give or take conductor and orchestra.   :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on January 09, 2009, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 09, 2009, 09:43:15 AM
Thank you Bruce!  :)  See, that's what I'm thinking too.....you need that emotional 'rest' or 'break' before that tornado of the fourth movement comes along.  That way too, the Andante is more 'centered' in the symphony  (Approx 35 minutes after the start and 33 minutes before the end.)  Obviously, give or take conductor and orchestra.   :D

Yes, and good point about the timing, too, from a "proportions standpoint."  (Of course, the Andante isn't exactly "quiet" all the way through, but that's another story.  ;D)  In his blog post, Carstensen says he prefers Scherzo-Andante, too. 

And all this is not even taking the key relationships into consideration.  Benjamin Zander has this observation:

Zander argues that the back-to-back A-minor horror of the opening movement and the Scherzo might have intimidated Mahler the performer. The conductor justifies his decision by examining the key relationships among the movements. If the A-minor Scherzo is played as the third movement, the modulation that occurs right at the start of the Finale is harmonically unnecessary. If the third movement is the E Flat Major-major Andante moderato, then the Finale's opening modulation makes sense.   [from Classical Net (http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/t/tlc80586a.php)]

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on January 09, 2009, 10:01:42 AM
Quote from: bhodges on January 09, 2009, 09:55:20 AM
Yes, and good point about the timing, too, from a "proportions standpoint."  (Of course, the Andante isn't exactly "quiet" all the way through, but that's another story.  ;D) 

Yes, true enough.  Yet...it is compared to the other three movements.   ;D

*I noticed a deep brass bass theme or motif midway through the Scherzo, which eerily reminded me of the 'Fafner' motif from Wagner's Siegfried.  Anyone else notice this ???

*Please do not stone and pillage this uneducated music lover.  :D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2009, 02:11:30 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 08, 2009, 06:18:51 PM

Your thoughts?  What is the current practice of conductors these days?  I am hearing this symphony live in May 2009.   :) 

We've discussed this in detail in the past. I think you were too busy listening to chamber music to notice  ;)  It's late here but I'll add some thoughts tomorrow when my brain is less alcohol addled (damn those dirty whte mothers)...or maybe I'll find the old threads for you. It is a fascinating question. Like most listeners (and most conductors) I prefer Scherzo first then Andante. I find the music most satisfying that way, both emotionally and technically (i.e., the key relationships).

My next live Sixth will be in Cleveland next May too, directed by Welser-Möst.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on January 09, 2009, 05:05:51 PM
Quote from: bhodges on January 09, 2009, 09:55:20 AM
And all this is not even taking the key relationships into consideration.  Benjamin Zander has this observation:

Zander argues that the back-to-back A-minor horror of the opening movement and the Scherzo might have intimidated Mahler the performer. The conductor justifies his decision by examining the key relationships among the movements. If the A-minor Scherzo is played as the third movement, the modulation that occurs right at the start of the Finale is harmonically unnecessary. If the third movement is the E Flat Major-major Andante moderato, then the Finale's opening modulation makes sense.   [from Classical Net (http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/t/tlc80586a.php)]

--Bruce

Setting aside the business of modulations and harmonic necessities, I'm intrigued by the phrase "back-to-back A-minor horror".

(Especially given that, IIRC, Mahler published the symphony in the Scherzo-Andante order, but performed it the other way around.)

Is it tenable to assume a conductor could be intimidated by his own work to the extent of altering its structure for performance? Certainly, he did alter the structure - my (rather open) question is whether the intimidation claim could hold.


As far as the argument for "emotional rest" goes, however, I still strongly believe it works either way. At the, however vague and "musicotheoretically unrigorous", (subjective) semantic level, I can see the hypothetical "story" unfolding in both ways.

Whether with a more balanced division of the dramatic content towards a more "Classical" overall shape - march, hysteric march, introspection, catharsis - or a "slanted" arrangement, giving the impression of a march, then a pause, then tumbling down a steep slope all the way into the finale, I find it fairly defensible a notion that it would be more (musical) formal elements to decide what goes first. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Symphonien on January 09, 2009, 05:07:14 PM
On the issue of the order of the two middle movements, I tend to agree with Benjamin Zander that there are essentially two Mahler 6ths - the first by the composer-Mahler that includes the three hammer blows and the second by Mahler the performer, the superstitious man that was so scared by what he had created that he removed the third hammer blow from the score and thinned out the orchestration at the moment it was intended to fall. The reversal of the order of the middle movements was related to the removal of the third hammer blow. To quote Zander at length from his discussion about the revisions in his Telarc recording:

Quote from: Benjamin ZanderI feel that Mahler's change in the order of the middle movements is related to the man-Mahler's attempt to soften the impact of what he had created. When the first movement is followed by the Scherzo, there is a sort of monolithic horror to it - these two large movements both in A minor. And although the first movement ends in a very triumphant A Major, that triumph is immediately negated just as it always is with the fate motive pulled inexorably down from major to minor. And now, all that the first movement had achieved in arriving at A Major is held up to mockery by the opening of the Scherzo, which grotesquely distorts so much material that was originally heard in the first movement. The two movements in this way become one thing, in much the same way that the first two movements of Mahler's 5th belong together as a single entity, even though they have distinct beginnings and ends. There's a further point about the order of movements that convinces me that Mahler's original is preferable and that is a harmonic one. The Andante is in E Flat Major, the introduction to the fourth movement begins in C Minor, the key most closely related to E Flat, and then in the course of its first ten measures moves to A Minor for a statement of the familiar fate motive... In other words, the opening ten bars of the fourth movement serve as the modulation from E Flat back to the symphony's tonic key of A minor. If you play the Andante as the second movement and the Scherzo as third, then you already are in A minor at the moment the fourth movement begins making the modulation to the key of A minor superfluous.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Symphonien on January 09, 2009, 05:27:25 PM
Quote from: Renfield on January 09, 2009, 05:05:51 PM
Is it tenable to assume a conductor could be intimidated by his own work to the extent of altering its structure for performance?

Yes, and that is exactly what happened. ;D

However for the most compelling argument the other way, you should read  this booklet  (http://www.posthorn.com/Mahler/Correct_Movement_Order_III.pdf) that has been cited by Slatkin, Jansons, Tilson Thomas and Mehta as justification for performing Andante-Scherzo. It mostly argues based on the fact that Mahler wanted it that way and never changed his mind again to Scherzo-Andante. But to me that was related to the same superstitions that caused him to take out the third hammer blow (i.e. Mahler was wrong :D). But it's interesting reading nonetheless.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on January 09, 2009, 05:30:56 PM
Quote from: Symphonien on January 09, 2009, 05:27:25 PM
However for the most compelling argument the other way, you should read  this booklet  (http://www.posthorn.com/Mahler/Correct_Movement_Order_III.pdf) that has been cited by Slatkin, Jansons, Tilson Thomas and Mehta as justification for performing Andante-Scherzo.

Very interesting; thank you. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on January 09, 2009, 08:40:40 PM
Quote from: Renfield on January 08, 2009, 07:07:20 PM
Who is conducting? :)


Bramwell Tovey. Nowhere near the world's foremost Mahler interpreters, but hey, it's Gustav after all. It can't be that bad.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on January 10, 2009, 12:19:32 AM
Quote from: imperfection on January 09, 2009, 08:40:40 PM
Bramwell Tovey. Nowhere near the world's foremost Mahler interpreters, but hey, it's Gustav after all. It can't be that bad.  :)

No, indeed it can't. Even when whistled, there are rewards to be had from Mahler's music. ;) :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on January 10, 2009, 01:31:02 AM
I have a solution to this problem: extract Mahler's DNA from his bone marrow; clone him, then politely ask him to compose an additional slow movement, then place one on either side of the scherzo 0:)

BTW, I do love the problem he left with the 6th, the discussion it engenders rarely fails to encourage me to relisten to the piece - often with positive results (says the not-very-Mahler-fan...). Regardless of keys, wherever the scherzo is placed, there is still something of an imbalance, emotionally. This is what makes me doubt the claim that this is Mahler's most classically-proportioned symphony - I find the 5th more balanced.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on January 10, 2009, 05:56:26 AM
Quote from: Lethe on January 10, 2009, 01:31:02 AM
I have a solution to this problem: extract Mahler's DNA from his bone marrow; clone him, then politely ask him to compose an additional slow movement, then place one on either side of the scherzo 0:)

is that actually possible?
if only it were so...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on January 10, 2009, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2009, 02:11:30 PM
We've discussed this in detail in the past. I think you were too busy listening to chamber music to notice  ;)   Like most listeners (and most conductors) I prefer Scherzo first then Andante. I find the music most satisfying that way, both emotionally and technically (i.e., the key relationships).

My next live Sixth will be in Cleveland next May too, directed by Welser-Möst.

Sarge

I was most certainly neck deep in chamber music.   0:)  I sent an email to our conductor (Alexander Mickelthwate, Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra) to get his thoughts and plans for the May performance.  :)  He has taken the time to respond to me in the past, so I hope he'll do so again.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dundonnell on January 11, 2009, 01:46:16 PM
Over the past hour I have been watching and listening to the last movement of the 'Resurrection' on YouTube in performances by Bernstein, Rattle, Abbado, Sinopoli and Neeme Jarvi.

The two performances which (once again) made most impact on me were the famous Bernstein from Ely Cathedral with the London Symphony Orchestra filmed in 1973-

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=07oLJ35Xzwo

and Simon Rattle's farewell concert with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra in 1998-

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_HpWDQsNJ3k

I am not normally a great admirer of Rattle but this performance is utterly glorious!

The last few minutes of this great symphony must be amongst the most sublime pages of music ever written!!

I must confess that the tears were pouring down my cheeks :) :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 11, 2009, 01:58:50 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 11, 2009, 01:46:16 PM
The last few minutes of this great symphony must be amongst the most sublime pages of music ever written!! I must confess that the tears were pouring down my cheeks :) :)

I think one has to have a heart of stone not to be intensely moved by that glorious peroration.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on January 11, 2009, 03:54:08 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 11, 2009, 01:46:16 PM
The last few minutes of this great symphony must be amongst the most sublime pages of music ever written!!

I agree wholeheartedly!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Salome on January 12, 2009, 12:15:32 AM
The Mahlerfest article : 'Myth and Reality in Mahler's Sixth Symphony' by Jeffrey Gantz contains an excellent discussion of some of the enduring questions surrounding Mahler's 6th.

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVI/notes_myth_reality.htm

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on January 12, 2009, 12:14:15 PM
Quote from: Salome on January 12, 2009, 12:15:32 AM
The Mahlerfest article : 'Myth and Reality in Mahler's Sixth Symphony' by Jeffrey Gantz contains an excellent discussion of some of the enduring questions surrounding Mahler's 6th.

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVI/notes_myth_reality.htm




that was a good read.
I like this paragraph at the end
Quote

     Commentators perhaps looking to Mahler to confirm their own view of existence have not hesitated to accept the Sixth's "Tragic" subtitle. Wilhelm Furtwängler labeled this symphony "the first nihilist work in the history of music." Bruno Walter argued that it "ends in hopelessness and the dark night of the soul . . . the 'other world' is not glimpsed for a moment." Leonard Bernstein described the Finale as the "catastrophe of homo sapiens himself."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Senta on February 01, 2009, 08:27:33 PM
Quote from: knight on October 29, 2008, 01:38:31 PM
Free with my Gramophone subscription mag came a sampler of Super Audio Hybrid discs. The tracks are from various independent labels. The first track is from a new Mahler 5, Jansons and the Concertgebouw. We get seven minutes from the opening. The sound is stunning,up front and rich, I like what Jansons does in that brief few minutes, so I have ordered it. It is on the orchestra's own label.

The release will be around the middle of November.

Mike

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/86/1050586.jpg)

Yes, I am listening to this right now! Brand-new acqusition and finishing a first spin. I got it at a deal on eMusic (and I think it is on other download sites as well).

This is very much worth a listen. The sound is rather cavernous and obscures some detail, but then again it also sounds very "live" and Concertgebouw-ish which is nice. And the playing is simply gorgeous and so lyrical! The interpretation is far more romantic and expansive than I expected, with string playing so lush you could bathe in the sound. And besides the lovely strings, which I mentioned, the wind and brass playing is also spectacular, notably the large trumpet and horn solos which are played so effortlessly with such control and gleaming tone. This has to be one of my favorite interpretations of the 3rd mvmt obligato horn! And the Adagietto is gentle, warm, and flowing, never draggy, displaying well the strings' remarkable depth of sound. Musically this recording is extremely impressive. In fact, it may be one of the most singing and lyrical performances I have perhaps heard of this work.

Sometimes Jansons sacrifices some energy for this goal, and in the difficult 2nd mvmt sometimes the strings and brass don't quite lock in with each other, but very minor peccadillos, which are more than made up for by the amazing richness and magnificence of the performance as a whole.

Note: I also see this is available on SACD, which I guess I will have to trade up to sometime!

(PS: Does anyone have their Mahler 6? And could someone tell me what is on these front covers? ;D It looks like broken candy pieces!)

 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 01, 2009, 08:39:11 PM
Greta,

Quoting my note to the Listening Thread, coincidentally from a few days ago:

Quote from: Renfield on January 31, 2009, 05:10:58 AM
Hmm...

I'd call this an "eight out of ten" recording, deliberately avoiding numbers for the sake of not awarding it a score as such.

But it's not perfect, nor is it outstanding, mostly due to the slight slackening of pace every once in a while in the latter movements. However, the opening movement is superb, and if the orchestral playing were any more polished, it would reflect itself. :o :P

Do sample for how well Mahler's 5th can be played, but do not sample for how well Mahler's 5th can be performed.


(A shame, as that opening movement, ominously no-nonsense, elicited expectations the rest of the recording did not consistently deliver on. :()


I've been following the Jansons/Concertegbouw cycle, and am generally quite pleased with the results (despite my above grumbling).

Their 6th was very good, something like a moderate cross-breed of Bernstein and Karajan, big and sensitive, but not altogether as over-the-top as Lenny, or as precise as Karajan. Their 1st was also quite good, though Gramophone found it somewhat too ordinary. ::) (I liked it.)


So far, this cycle isn't looking like it's going to top the very best: but it's certainly very welcome in my collection, and no less than interesting.

Finally, the covers are probably pills; crushed pills. :o


Edit:

What makes Jansons' efforts even more interesting for me is that I'm following this cycle in parallel to the faster-progressing (as it's all been recorded) Gergiev, the latter pretty much as far as possible from Janson's aesthetic - but also interesting enough to follow. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 01, 2009, 10:42:54 PM
I'm starting to like Barbirolli's Mahler very much. So far I have heard his 6th and sampled his 5th, but plan on getting it pretty soon too. The former is a very majestic, grandiose, broad performance - very much like Celibidache's Bruckner, except the Englishman doesn't round off the edges and homogenize every sonority. Where it needs to be rough, Barbirolli hits as hard as anybody else, and where it demands lyricism, he creams your face. It really deserves to be in the Greatest Recordings of The Century series, in my opinion. Now I just hope his 5th will be at least half as good as his 6th.

(http://www.esounds.com/esounds/img/packshots/5099921269028-lt.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 01, 2009, 11:01:27 PM
Barbirolli's 5th is great! Only his 9th is a contender for a better Mahler recording from him, IMO.

(That's not meant to disparage his 6th, also a great reading and great recording. Still, the 5th and 9th are challengers for the top, period. :))
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on February 01, 2009, 11:15:10 PM
Quote from: Renfield on February 01, 2009, 11:01:27 PM

(That's not meant to disparage his 6th, also a great reading and great recording. Still, the 5th and 9th are challengers for the top, period. :))

Agreed, I have not found another 9th with the emotional sucker-punch that Barbirolli provides, esprcially in the first movement.

BTW I got the Janssons 5th and found it a dit disappointing. Some of it lacks momentum and the second movement especially seems to be affected.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 02, 2009, 09:21:45 AM
Quote from: Senta on February 01, 2009, 08:27:33 PM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/86/1050586.jpg)
(PS: could someone tell me what is on these front covers? ;D It looks like broken candy pieces!)

I was thinking antidepressants.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: Senta on February 01, 2009, 08:27:33 PM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/86/1050586.jpg)

(PS: And could someone tell me what is on these front covers? ;D It looks like broken candy pieces!)

 

Vitamin C tablets.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on February 02, 2009, 09:24:40 AM
Vitamin C# minor, to be precise. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 09:27:27 AM
Quote from: opus67 on February 02, 2009, 09:24:40 AM
Vitamin C# minor, to be precise. ;)

Ah yes, perhaps they are Flintstone vitamins (I remember them tasting rather sharp :P)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 02, 2009, 11:08:30 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 09:27:27 AM
Ah yes, perhaps they are Flintstone vitamins (I remember them tasting rather sharp :P)
Those things were yummy! If only it weren't bad for your health to eat through the whole bottle, I'd do it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Senta on February 02, 2009, 12:10:48 PM
Not sure what vitamin pills or candy have to do with Mahler....but anyway...

Yes, it seems that we are all hearing the same things about the Jansons M5 and expressing it in our own ways. (Isn't that fun about a classical forum?!)

I agree wholly with you Renfield and Mike, while I enjoy the performance and find it very impressive, the curious moments of slowing of pace and flagging energy make this one knock off a few points. I think it is perhaps more worthy for how finely and musically the orchestra plays, and how well they follow their conductor.

While maybe not wholly satisfying, it is yet a splendid example of how well this conductor and orchestra are working together.

Now, the real reason I gave the recording a spin last night - was to refresh my ears after this, yes, I bit:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513Y57TQWYL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

[[Cue: Opening of Worm Can]]

I don't agree with Hurwitz though didn't love it either, will post thoughts later...still at work..
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 12:24:02 PM
Quote from: Senta on February 02, 2009, 12:10:48 PM
Not sure what vitamin pills or candy have to do with Mahler....but anyway...


Actually had to do with your own post about how you wondered what was on the cover of a particular Mahler CD jacket.....but anyway...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Senta on February 02, 2009, 01:18:53 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 02, 2009, 12:24:02 PM
Actually had to do with your own post about how you wondered what was on the cover of a particular Mahler CD jacket.....but anyway...

LOL...well, rather...what the cover designer thought they had to do with Mahler... ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 02, 2009, 04:03:55 PM
Quote from: Renfield on February 01, 2009, 11:01:27 PM
Barbirolli's 5th is great! Only his 9th is a contender for a better Mahler recording from him, IMO.

(That's not meant to disparage his 6th, also a great reading and great recording. Still, the 5th and 9th are challengers for the top, period. :))

Now I am relieved. Sorry about my wallet, I guess. Also, how would you compare Karajan's live 9th with the Barbirolli 9th?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 02, 2009, 10:48:34 PM
Quote from: imperfection on February 02, 2009, 04:03:55 PM
Also, how would you compare Karajan's live 9th with the Barbirolli 9th?

"Different". Barbirolli goes for the lyrical jugular, whereas Karajan aims for existential transcendence. 0:)

That is the reason I always recommend the Karajan first, it's a qualitatively different approach to "the problem of Mahler's 9th" (my term, there is no such official problem). But Barbirolli's is probably a good as the straight approach can get - quite certainly so among extant recordings! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2009, 04:57:19 AM
Is there a (special) reason why Mahler included a violin solo in every symphony of his? (Maybe I should rephrase it and say every symphony of his that I have heard, which would be 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 04, 2009, 06:21:25 AM
Quote from: Senta on February 02, 2009, 01:18:53 PM
LOL...well, rather...what the cover designer thought they had to do with Mahler... ;)

What I saw when I looked at those covers were crushed anti-depressants. I don't know what the designer's actual intent was, but in an unrelated article/website/blog, this fellow sees a connection between bipolar illness and Mahler. http://www.mcmanweb.com/mahler.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 04, 2009, 07:02:45 AM
Quote from: Senta on February 01, 2009, 08:27:33 PM
[Re. Janssons/RCO]  Does anyone have their Mahler 6?
Not this one, but I do have the Janssons/LSO released recently on LSO Live and acquired during my Mahler Mania binge late this past summer, when I snatched up all of the MTT/SFS recordings so far, plus most of the late Lenny symphonies on DGG, and a few other odds and ends, including the stunningly beautiful Nagano/DSO Berlin Mahler 8th.  I recall admiring the Jannsons 6th quite a bit at the time but haven't heard it since.  Your query reminds me that it's due for another spin, maybe even later today after the Karajan/BP Tapiola (if I find the time after wasting so much here!).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 04, 2009, 08:00:47 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 04, 2009, 07:02:45 AM
I recall admiring the Jannsons 6th quite a bit at the time but haven't heard it since.  Your query reminds me that it's due for another spin, maybe even later today after the Karajan/BP Tapiola (if I find the time after wasting so much here!).

For reference: Gramophone apparently thought the two recordings (LSO/RCO) were very similar, if one accounts for the different orchestras.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 04, 2009, 12:19:29 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 04, 2009, 06:21:25 AM
What I saw when I looked at those covers were crushed anti-depressants. I don't know what the designer's actual intent was, but in an unrelated article/website/blog, this fellow sees a connection between bipolar illness and Mahler. http://www.mcmanweb.com/mahler.html
That was an awesome article, and I have to thank you for it.

Quote
Kay Jamison in "Touched with Fire" describes Mahler as cyclothymic, with a strong family history of mental illness - a brother who committed suicide, a sister with death hallucinations, and another brother with grandiose tendencies.
Stuff like that really makes me think. He did say that if it weren't for how he was, his symphonies wouldn't be how they are...


Quote


Undoubtedly, there is a Mahler in our midst, penning strange and incomprehensible music at this very moment, with a disturbing foretaste of things that may eventuate. This time, it may behoove us wake up and listen.
Yeah, that's right, you heard him- listen to the music I will be writing in the future! It's a commandment!  ;D

really, though, if there was a new Mahler out there, i'd like to know!  :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 04, 2009, 12:26:42 PM
here's an interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclothymia


Quote


This disorder is common in the relatives of patients with bipolar disorder
I have a relative with bipolar disorder... is that why I like Mahler so much?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on February 04, 2009, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: G$ on February 04, 2009, 12:26:42 PM
here's an interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclothymia

"Heeeeeee . . . has his contradicting views.
Sheeeeeee . . . has her cyclothymic moods . . . ."

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21EQWQCGF9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 04, 2009, 12:38:06 PM
leave it up to Karl to find out how to apply King Cromson lyrics in a Mahler thread  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on February 04, 2009, 12:38:41 PM
Quote from: G$ on February 04, 2009, 12:38:06 PM
leave it up to Karl to find out how to apply King Cromson lyrics in a Mahler thread  ;D

You gave the assist, lad!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 04, 2009, 08:38:08 PM
I can't help but love the Andante from the 6th to death. It is such a stark contrast to the rest of the symphony, which is, catastrophic and bleak. It's hard to find a movement as heart aching as this one...but that's probably because I haven't heard the 9th yet--I know I'm not prepared for it, so I'm saving the best for last.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 05, 2009, 03:47:52 AM
Quote from: imperfection on February 04, 2009, 08:38:08 PM
I can't help but love the Andante from the 6th to death. It is such a stark contrast to the rest of the symphony, which is, catastrophic and bleak. It's hard to find a movement as heart aching as this one...but that's probably because I haven't heard the 9th yet--I know I'm not prepared for it, so I'm saving the best for last.  ;)
Heh, if you feel that way about that movement, you're likely to love the 9th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jwinter on February 05, 2009, 05:34:19 AM
Quote from: Renfield on February 02, 2009, 10:48:34 PM
But Barbirolli's is probably a good as the straight approach can get - quite certainly so among extant recordings! :)

Barbirolli's 9th is indeed excellent, I think all of his Mahler is worth hearing.  I think his 6th is my favorite -- the opening march has a rough, dark, brutal quality that really works for this piece.   

For a "straight" 9th I'd also recommend Ancerl & the Czech Philharmonic -- that's a wonderful CD.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on February 05, 2009, 05:36:54 AM
Quote from: jwinter on February 05, 2009, 05:34:19 AM
For a "straight" 9th I'd also recommend Ancerl & the Czech Philharmonic -- that's a wonderful CD.

Hmm, there's a temptation!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2009, 10:54:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 05, 2009, 05:36:54 AM
Hmm, there's a temptation!

Ancerl's Ninth is too "straight" for me, but yeah, it might be just the Ninth for you, Karl. And I mean that in the most positive way.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 05, 2009, 11:12:08 AM
Quote from: jwinter on February 05, 2009, 05:34:19 AM
Barbirolli's 9th is indeed excellent, I think all of his Mahler is worth hearing.  I think his 6th is my favorite -- the opening march has a rough, dark, brutal quality that really works for this piece.   

For a "straight" 9th I'd also recommend Ancerl & the Czech Philharmonic -- that's a wonderful CD.
Is there a Naxos version of this? That recording sounds familiar- I might've listened to it, or at least bits.

This is all I could find, but it itsn't Naxos:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-Ancerl-Philharmonic-Orchestra/dp/B00000359H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233864646&sr=8-1
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2009, 11:16:42 AM
Quote from: G$ on February 05, 2009, 11:12:08 AM
Is there a Naxos version of this?

No, only on Supraphon. It isn't old enough yet for Naxos to steal  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 05, 2009, 02:48:37 PM
Oh, I must've been thinking of another recording, then.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 06, 2009, 03:35:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 05, 2009, 11:16:42 AM
No, only on Supraphon. It isn't old enough yet for Naxos to steal  ;D

Sarge

I believe Supraphon has a complete "Ancerl Gold Edition" (or used to at least) which would therefore need to include a Mahler Ninth.

In the good old days, nearly 50 years ago now,  :o  (Oh great!  I needed to remember that!)  I had a recording of the Ninth by the London Symphony with conductor Leopold Ludwig (How much more Germanic could you get with that name?).

If it is still out there, it would qualify as a "straight" Mahler Ninth

As opposed to those with all the detours: maybe somebody wouldn't stop to ask for directions, and just wandered around doing his own thing?   0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on February 06, 2009, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: jwinter on February 05, 2009, 05:34:19 AM
For a "straight" 9th I'd also recommend Ancerl & the Czech Philharmonic -- that's a wonderful CD.
Seconded with great enthusiasm. I was pointed to this about three or four years ago by Molman, via DavidW, and have been so pleased by the recommendation.

It is indeed a very "straight" reading, but I think he brings out all the emotional depth without any self-indulgent distortions.... and naturally the CzPO winds are amazing. I'm not sure I grasped just how fine a reading it was initially, but the more I listened the more I realized that everything I love in this symphony is superbly brought out here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on February 06, 2009, 02:31:54 PM
Quote from: jwinter on February 05, 2009, 05:34:19 AM
Barbirolli's 9th is indeed excellent, I think all of his Mahler is worth hearing.  I think his 6th is my favorite -- the opening march has a rough, dark, brutal quality that really works for this piece.

And don't forget Barbirolli's groaning and moaning!
Frightening!   

Quote from: jwinter on February 05, 2009, 05:34:19 AM
For a "straight" 9th I'd also recommend Ancerl & the Czech Philharmonic -- that's a wonderful CD.

Ah! I have that one on vinyl!
I 'learned' to appreciate Mahler 9 thanks to this Ancerl recording, after I listened to this work for the first time, some 21 years ago, at Christmas Day 1987 (Concertgebouw Christmas Matinee, Haitink).

There's also another Czech conductor who has recorded a Ninth that I really like: Libor Pešek, with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic. Still available, I think, at Virgin Classics.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 06, 2009, 02:39:41 PM
Quote from: Marc on February 06, 2009, 02:31:54 PM
And don't forget Barbirolli's groaning and moaning!
Frightening!   

:(

Somehow, I don't mind at all.

Not even Bernstein's "thumps" as he jumps on the podium, let alone Glorious John's subtle groaning; only Gould can get to me, on occasion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2009, 12:29:54 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 06, 2009, 02:31:54 PM
And don't forget Barbirolli's groaning and moaning!
Frightening!

Quote from: Renfield on February 06, 2009, 02:39:41 PM
:(

Somehow, I don't mind at all.

Not even Bernstein's "thumps" as he jumps on the podium, let alone Glorious John's subtle groaning; only Gould can get to me, on occasion.

My mistake. I should have written:
And don't forget Barbirolli's groaning and moaning!
Frightening!
;D


But I forgot the biggrin. ;D

I don't mind about the moaning, either.
And it doesn't frighten me, either.

On the other hand (since you mentioned him): Gould sometimes annoys me with his humming. I feel that he disturbs Bach's own counterpoint, by adding that extra part to the score. Still, it's one of those qualities that makes Gould's performance unique.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 07, 2009, 04:25:41 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2009, 12:29:54 AM
Still, it's one of those qualities that makes Gould's performance unique.

True enough. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on February 07, 2009, 04:45:07 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2009, 12:29:54 AM
Still, it's one of those qualities that makes Gould's performance unique.

As unique as having someone humming along their favourite tune while you're trying to listen. Never mind, though, it's technology to the rescue! --> The Glenn Gould De-Vocalizer 2000. (http://www.unpronounceable.com/gould/)

(http://www.unpronounceable.com/gould/media/gould.gif)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2009, 06:24:42 AM
Quote from: Renfield on February 06, 2009, 02:39:41 PM
:(

Somehow, I don't mind at all.

Not even Bernstein's "thumps" as he jumps on the podium, let alone Glorious John's subtle groaning; only Gould can get to me, on occasion.

While listening to a recording I don't mind any of these reminders that actual human beings are making the music...and responding to it emotionally as I am. I find Gould's humming, yodeling and creaking chair completely endearing...as is Toscanini when he turns a duet into a trio in his Bohème  ;D

My favorite example, though, is Hélène Grimaud's orgasmic moans during the first movement of op.110...incredibly sexy  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 07, 2009, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2009, 06:24:42 AM
My favorite example, though, is Hélène Grimaud's orgasmic moans during the first movement of op.110...incredibly sexy  8)
Oh, my!  Not what I expected to find on a Mahler thread.

(Pssst, Sarge...is that on the disc with Masur doing PC#4?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2009, 10:33:04 AM
Please, let's be serious and discrete about this, gentlemen! :D

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2009, 06:24:42 AM
While listening to a recording I don't mind any of these reminders that actual human beings are making the music...and responding to it emotionally as I am. I find Gould's humming, yodeling and creaking chair completely endearing...as is Toscanini when he turns a duet into a trio in his Bohème  ;D

My favorite example, though, is Hélène Grimaud's orgasmic moans during the first movement of op.110...incredibly sexy  8)

Sarge

OK. Endearing, that's a nice word to describe it.
When I watch Bernstein conducting f.i., it certainly gives me some extra positive inspiration.
And this human and emotional element, of which you are speaking, really appeals to me. But in the end I don't recall me saying at any time, after listening to a piece: this is my favourite recording, because of the moaning. ;)
I'm certain that I'd also appreciate Barbirolli's interpretation of Mahler 6 very very much, without his groaning. That's what I wanted to make clear, I think. :)

And, possibly/hopefully my last words about of moaning and groaning in this thread: sure, I believe that Hélène's [:-*] intense orgasms can sound very sexy  .... but I'm not so sure if it really adds something essential to the music she's playing.

I remember once, sitting in the front row, a Dutch conductor moaning, groaning and singing all the time during Bach's Matthäus-Passion. I can assure you: it wasn't easy to endure, almost as tough as carrying the süßes Kreuz.
Then again: if two dashing sopranos would moan during a duetto in Mozart's Così, well, err ....  :-X
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2009, 10:34:38 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on February 07, 2009, 04:45:07 AM
As unique as having someone humming along their favourite tune while you're trying to listen. Never mind, though, it's technology to the rescue! --> The Glenn Gould De-Vocalizer 2000. (http://www.unpronounceable.com/gould/)

(http://www.unpronounceable.com/gould/media/gould.gif)

;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2009, 11:39:28 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 07, 2009, 10:13:16 AM
Oh, my!  Not what I expected to find on a Mahler thread.

(Pssst, Sarge...is that on the disc with Masur doing PC#4?)

Yep...next time your wife is out of the house, slip that into the player, don some headphones (much more intimate that way), and enjoy  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2009, 11:56:09 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 07, 2009, 10:33:04 AM
... but I'm not so sure if it really adds something essential to the music she's playing.

Well, an added emotional rush, the tangible evidence that I'm sharing an experience with another human being (in Grimaud's Beethoven case, a very attractive human being  ;) )  Is that necessary to the music or my enjoyment of it? Of course not. But, as I've said, I've never found it distracting either. I attend quite a few concerts. Mrs. Rock and I usually sit in the front row. If the sounds musicians make while playing music bothered me, we could never enjoy the events. It's no different at home; I don't demand the players perform in silence.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moldyoldie on February 09, 2009, 06:49:32 AM
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?")
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TXP8ST0QL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Mahler: Symphony No. 7 "Song of the Night"
San Francisco Symphony Orchestra
Michael Tilson Thomas, cond.
SAN FRANCISCO SYMPHONY (Hybrid SACD)

I've read myriad reviews on Amazon and elsewhere of this Grammy-winning recording -- oh, and I've just heard it for the first time this morning before doing so again.  Where the recordings by Levine/CSO (my introduction to the Mahler No. 7 many years ago), Bernstein/NYPO, and more recently Gielen/SWRSO each brought unique perspectives to this thorny work and made for thoroughly entertaining listening from beginning to end; Michael Tilson Thomas and the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra bring a workmanlike adherence to a score in very vivid sound that ultimately becomes an interminable listen.  Yes, as did another reviewer, I became bored!   With all the strange and wonderful things that go on in this work, that absolutely shouldn't happen!

I'm not patient enough to delineate each and every fine point of non-concurrence with my personal sensibility, but I will say that when I listen to the Mahler Seventh, I want to be transported to a netherworld of demons and delights, where the magic of the music lifts you away from your safe little world and brings you back as if you'd just awoken from a phantasmagorical suspension in time. Unfortunately, I didn't get that here; this is simply too plain-faced and sober an interpretation, despite the fine playing and recording.  With the overall length of this symphony, I don't think moderate differences in playing time from performance to performance have much to do with "effectiveness" -- depth of detailing and persuasive interpretation certainly do!

Another Amazon reviewer I read bemoans the gimmicky spotlighting of the recording scheme, that it doesn't sound "natural". Yes, the prominent brass and percussion are often forward balanced with violins seemingly emanating from somewhere "beneath" them! Levine's recording on RCA was also oddly balanced, but I never found it obtrusive in this macabre musical setting. Frankly, such oddities done subtly and purposefully can add to the charm of this work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 09, 2009, 07:10:20 AM
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?")

What a strange perspective on this disc!  The sensuousness of both performance and sound quality is one of the reasons this recording is among my favorites of the 7th.  I continue to be thrilled and delighted by the MTT/SFS Mahler cycle, and do not think I'm just blinded by partiality to the local band, else these recordings would not likely enjoy the widespread critical acclaim they've received.  I think I'll pop it in the CD transport right now and crank up the amplifier so I can immerse myself in this heady soundworld!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 09, 2009, 09:47:55 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 09, 2009, 07:10:20 AM
(Pasted from "What Are You Listening To?")

What a strange perspective on this disc!  The sensuousness of both performance and sound quality is one of the reasons this recording is among my favorites of the 7th.  I continue to be thrilled and delighted by the MTT/SFS Mahler cycle, and do not think I'm just blinded by partiality to the local band, else these recordings would not likely enjoy the widespread critical acclaim they've received.  I think I'll pop it in the CD transport right now and crank up the amplifier so I can immerse myself in this heady soundworld!
As I wrote in the original thread, I, too, love MTT's M7. It and the M3 are my favorites in his cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on February 09, 2009, 04:10:17 PM
Moldyoldie, allow me to recomment the famous Tennstedt M7 to you. Plenty of magic and emotion there!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 09, 2009, 07:45:54 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on February 09, 2009, 04:10:17 PM
Moldyoldie, allow me to recomment the famous Tennstedt M7 to you. Plenty of magic and emotion there!
Do you mean the one on EMI or the one from the BBC Legends series? I already have (and love) the EMI, and the BBC version is winging its way across the ocean to me from mdt.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: musimath on February 11, 2009, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: stingo on May 02, 2007, 03:30:52 AM
I'd suggest listening to the Ruckert lieder too.

Specially "Ich bin der Welt...". The Janet Baker - Barbirolli reading is deeply moving.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 11, 2009, 12:30:19 PM
Quote from: musimath on February 11, 2009, 12:26:17 PM
Specially "Ich bin der Welt...". The Janet Baker - Barbirolli reading is deeply moving.
That's my fave!  Welcome to GMG, musimath.  You're off to a good start!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on February 11, 2009, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 09, 2009, 07:45:54 PM
Do you mean the one on EMI or the one from the BBC Legends series? I already have (and love) the EMI, and the BBC version is winging its way across the ocean to me from mdt.
I don't know the BBC one. I've been off that series since I bought the Barbirolli M7/Bruckner 9. That M7 has really awful cowbells.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 11, 2009, 07:16:51 PM
How do Mahler fans here like Sinopoli's DG set with the Philharmonia? I recall that Michael Schaffer, a very informed former member (that sounded weird) had very nice things to say about it on RMCR a while ago.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QMIBbvsVy9M/SSWGXbX3XZI/AAAAAAAACT4/9_oDyil_atU/s400/Mahler+integral+de+Sinopoli..jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 12, 2009, 08:57:57 AM
Quote from: imperfection on February 11, 2009, 07:16:51 PM
How do Mahler fans here like Sinopoli's DG set with the Philharmonia? I recall that Michael Schaffer, a very informed former member (that sounded weird) had very nice things to say about it on RMCR a while ago.
He has also praised Sinopoli's Mahler here.  You do know, don't you, that Michael and "M" (or "M Forever") are one and the same?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on February 12, 2009, 09:28:32 AM
Quote from: imperfection on February 11, 2009, 07:16:51 PM
How do Mahler fans here like Sinopoli's DG set with the Philharmonia? I recall that Michael Schaffer, a very informed former member (that sounded weird) had very nice things to say about it on RMCR a while ago.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QMIBbvsVy9M/SSWGXbX3XZI/AAAAAAAACT4/9_oDyil_atU/s400/Mahler+integral+de+Sinopoli..jpg)

I gave the 7th a try thanks to M's advocacy, and it wasn't just interesting, but very good as well. I haven't heard anyone do the nachtmusik movements like Sinopoli - pure atmosphere, mystery and colour.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on February 12, 2009, 09:32:35 AM
I also like Sinopoli's 7th very much.  Although I don't have the complete set, I have (IIRC) Nos. 2, 5, 7 and 8, and like them all. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 12, 2009, 09:37:45 AM
The Sinopoli is probably one of the few major complete Mahler cycles of note I do not own, yet. But I have heard his 8th, and it (coupled with the praise from M, whose taste mine agrees with) has intrigued me enough to consider the full cycle, despite the price.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 13, 2009, 11:02:26 AM
Quote from: Renfield on February 12, 2009, 09:37:45 AM
The Sinopoli is probably one of the few major complete Mahler cycles of note I do not own, yet. But I have heard his 8th, and it (coupled with the praise from M, whose taste mine agrees with) has intrigued me enough to consider the full cycle, despite the price.
His 5th and 8th are among my favorites.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 13, 2009, 08:50:40 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 13, 2009, 11:02:26 AM
His 5th and 8th are among my favorites.

Could you explain the reasons, please?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 14, 2009, 02:13:54 AM
Quote from: imperfection on February 13, 2009, 08:50:40 PM
Could you explain the reasons, please?
I don't know the vocabulary for describing music. What I do know is that it took me a long time to find a M5 I actually liked listening to. I mentally rejected both Bernsteins, one by Barbirolli, and I can't remember now how many others, before I heard Sinopoli's, and it turned out to be the one I loved. It's kind of like Goldilocks and the three bears (it was just right); or to paraphrase from the old definition of obscenity, "I knew it when I heard it." I first heard Sinopoli's M5 sometime in the late '80s or early '90s, so it became my first, or imprint, version. Over time, I grew to like other versions, incl. Bernstein's on DG, and Tennstedt's.

By the time I heard Sinopoli's M8 in the '00s, I already had two favorite versions, Bernstein's on CBS and Tennstedt's, so it was unusual for another version to break through. But it did, and it became a favorite. I love all three of them now, with Bernstein's probably being my favorite favorite, especially when I play the first movement from the M2 Bernstein Edition version (the original CD version of the first movement is very rough sounding).

I hope this works as some kind of explanation. It's not as simple a matter as liking the sound quality more -- though that is important -- as a lot of people don't like the sound of Bernstein's CBS Mahler, and most of those are my favorite versions and I listen to them to this day.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 16, 2009, 02:42:49 PM
First actual recording I've heard of the Symphonic Prelude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRdgFLEn8M

any other good ones out there?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 16, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Quote from: G Forever on February 16, 2009, 02:42:49 PM
First actual recording I've heard of the Symphonic Prelude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRdgFLEn8M
Thanks. I'd never even heard of the Symphonic Prelude. It sounds more like Bruckner than Mahler, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 17, 2009, 12:29:10 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 16, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Thanks. I'd never even heard of the Symphonic Prelude. It sounds more like Bruckner than Mahler, though.
I agree, it does sound a little bit more Brucknerian... although if you compare it to Mahler's early Piano Quintet, the overall sound is extremely similar.

I'm amazed at how certain works like this and The Song of Sorrow can go unlistened to- or even, unheard of, by people who collect 50 recordings of the same symphony. The only reason I'm even aware of the Symphonic Prelude is completely by mistake! I used to go to this one website, and found it here:

http://www.classicalarchives.com/composer/2937.html#music

wondering if it was even written by him. Then, I read some article about it on here a long time ago and find out it really was his. And now, finally, I hear a non-MIDI  recording.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 17, 2009, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: G Forever on February 17, 2009, 12:29:10 PM
I agree, it does sound a little bit more Brucknerian... although if you compare it to Mahler's early Piano Quintet, the overall sound is extremely similar.

I'm amazed at how certain works like this and The Song of Sorrow can go unlistened to- or even, unheard of, by people who collect 50 recordings of the same symphony. The only reason I'm even aware of the Symphonic Prelude is completely by mistake! I used to go to this one website, and found it here:

http://www.classicalarchives.com/composer/2937.html#music

wondering if it was even written by him. Then, I read some article about it on here a long time ago and find out it really was his. And now, finally, I hear a non-MIDI  recording.  8)

Greg, have you heard the M5 piano rolls that were recorded by the composer himself? Those are priceless, IMO (not to say I like his own interpretations, but still).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 19, 2009, 02:14:52 PM
Quote from: imperfection on February 17, 2009, 07:34:50 PM
Greg, have you heard the M5 piano rolls that were recorded by the composer himself? Those are priceless, IMO (not to say I like his own interpretations, but still).
Yep, at first I found them on youtube, but then got the CD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KVd7NToZiaw

I really don't like the interpretation, though. It doesn't breathe, and there's too many notes added which don't really do anything. The piano doesn't suit his music too well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 19, 2009, 08:50:18 PM
Quote from: G Forever on February 19, 2009, 02:14:52 PM

Yep, at first I found them on youtube, but then got the CD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KVd7NToZiaw

I really don't like the interpretation, though. It doesn't breathe, and there's too many notes added which don't really do anything. The piano doesn't suit his music too well.

I agree. While the piano is a versatile instrument, I think Mahler's scores are much too sophisticated (oh no, I just said the S word) for the piano. The variety of tone colors and complex (oh my, now the C word) orchestration can't really be brought out that well with 88 tiny hammers. Full orchestra is the way to go  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 20, 2009, 01:36:26 PM
There's worse S and C words out there in the world.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 20, 2009, 04:17:46 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TXP8ST0QL._SS500_.jpg)

I just can't stop listening to this M7.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Senta on February 20, 2009, 07:21:25 PM
This 7th comes up frequently around here it seems!  ;)

You know this was the first 7th I actually ever heard, when it came out a year or two ago it was played on the radio on a New Release show and I was spellbound by it! I have a several other recordings now but I still really like this one a lot. The playing is awesome and there is so much detail in the recording.

I also put up video of them playing it at The Proms - there are a few oopsies here and there but as a whole it is quite a performance.

Here is the opening of their stellar last mvmt - the other links can be found to the right of the vids in YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/v/UilOAx6dQZo&fmt=18
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 21, 2009, 01:07:10 AM
Quote from: Senta on February 20, 2009, 07:21:25 PM
This 7th comes up frequently around here it seems!  ;)

You know this was the first 7th I actually ever heard, when it came out a year or two ago it was played on the radio on a New Release show and I was spellbound by it! I have a several other recordings now but I still really like this one a lot. The playing is awesome and there is so much detail in the recording.

New copies are available quite cheaply ($9.43) on Amazon Marketplace right now. Well worth it, IMO, even if you don't have an SACD player. The redbook layer comes through just fine.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2009, 03:42:41 PM
Quote from: G Forever on February 17, 2009, 12:29:10 PM
wondering if it was even written by him....

I'm wondering too. La Grange doesn't mention it, and it isn't included in his list of Mahler works. Gramophone says (reviewing the Järvi recording):

The Symphonisches Praeludium has a couple of distinctly Mahlerian moments, and its Bachian preoccupations might be thought to imply a link with the mature composer. Refreshingly, Peter Franklin's notes make no great claims for its authenticity. (Albrecht Gursching's scoring seems rather thick.)

What do you know about it, Greg? Who said it's authentic? In any case, thanks for the youtube link. An interesting listen.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 21, 2009, 04:11:18 PM
It is being played in Helsinki on April 23rd:

http://www.sinfoniaorkesterit.fi/en/index.php?trg=calendar&q=Helsingin%20kaupunginorkesteri

I will soon post a translation of some information about the work, but need some time.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 21, 2009, 05:03:15 PM
From the Sikorski Music Publishing Company

"In the catalogs of the Sikorski Music Publishing Company is the "Symphonic Prelude" by Gustav Mahler: the story of its creation and rediscovery is noteworthy.  Mahler wrote this work in 1876 in his first year of study in Vienna.  As the editor Albrecht Gürsching relates: 'The work is a grandiose test of talent, oriented toward Bruckner, of the 16-year old Mahler.  It is on sketch-paper notated by a strange hand (Heinrich Tschuppig,  student comrade of Mahler).  Because the piece has survived the past century after it was once torn up (by Mahler??), the reconstruction involved some genuine detective work.  The glued pieces, made even less clear through an inadequate photocopy, let some idea of the composer's intentions get through in rough sections.  Moreover, the copy of this very bulky score (in part at least) was constantly squeezed into two parts (for 2 pianos?)  Therefore, before the actual score there (must have) existed an even more divided sketch, in which implied tones and the contrapuntal voice-leading were determined.  The actual score arose in a comparison with Bruckner's Third Symphony and Mahler's early compositions.' "

http://www.sikorski.de/de/frameloader.html?frame=http%3A//www.sikorski.de/articles/article601.html

The notes from CHANDOS with the Järvi recording are less sure: they cannot be copied, but in summary they say that the work, discovered in Viennese archives in the 1970's, could be a work by Bruckner and copied by his student and Mahler-comrade Rudolf Krzyanowski.  "Structural peculiarities" led musicologists to think it could be a lost student work of Mahler's, but the notes admit the mystery could never be solved. Mahler "must have identified" with it, even if he "did not compose it himself." 

Hans Rott    :o    is also mentioned:

http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%209207.pdf
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 22, 2009, 05:48:45 AM
The Symphonic Prelude can be dowloaded on John Berky's site (it was thought at first to be by Bruckner), but it seems to have disappeared. It's a short but interesting work. I have a file with Lawrence Foster conducting the Berlin RSO (1981). Did anyone upload that ? If not, and if I can figure out how to do it, I'll post it here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 22, 2009, 06:03:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2009, 03:42:41 PM


What do you know about it, Greg? Who said it's authentic? In any case, thanks for the youtube link. An interesting listen.

Sarge

Well, "Gustav" posted a pdf about it a long time ago. I saved it to my computer, but just tried looking for it, and I think I deleted it.


Quote from: Cato on February 21, 2009, 05:03:15 PM
From the Sikorski Music Publishing Company

"In the catalogs of the Sikorski Music Publishing Company is the "Symphonic Prelude" by Gustav Mahler: the story of its creation and rediscovery is noteworthy.  Mahler wrote this work in 1876 in his first year of study in Vienna.  As the editor Albrecht Gürsching relates: 'The work is a grandiose test of talent, oriented toward Bruckner, of the 16-year old Mahler.  It is on sketch-paper notated by a strange hand (Heinrich Tschuppig,  student comrade of Mahler).  Because the piece has survived the past century after it was once torn up (by Mahler??), the reconstruction involved some genuine detective work.  The glued pieces, made even less clear through an inadequate photocopy, let some idea of the composer's intentions get through in rough sections.  Moreover, the copy of this very bulky score (in part at least) was constantly squeezed into two parts (for 2 pianos?)  Therefore, before the actual score there (must have) existed an even more divided sketch, in which implied tones and the contrapuntal voice-leading were determined.  The actual score arose in a comparison with Bruckner's Third Symphony and Mahler's early compositions.' "

http://www.sikorski.de/de/frameloader.html?frame=http%3A//www.sikorski.de/articles/article601.html

The notes from CHANDOS with the Järvi recording are less sure: they cannot be copied, but in summary they say that the work, discovered in Viennese archives in the 1970's, could be a work by Bruckner and copied by his student and Mahler-comrade Rudolf Krzyanowski.  "Structural peculiarities" led musicologists to think it could be a lost student work of Mahler's, but the notes admit the mystery could never be solved. Mahler "must have identified" with it, even if he "did not compose it himself." 

Hans Rott    :o    is also mentioned:

http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%209207.pdf

Can't they tell a difference between the handwriting?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2009, 06:05:21 AM
Cato, Lilas, thanks for the additional info.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2009, 06:43:36 AM
Quote from: G Forever on February 22, 2009, 06:03:22 AM
Well, "Gustav" posted a pdf about it a long time ago. I saved it to my computer, but just tried looking for it, and I think I deleted it.

This might be the pdf you're talking about. Found it on Berky's discography:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf

Edit: Or maybe it isn't. I just read it. It makes a case for Bruckner composing the piece.


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 22, 2009, 07:11:44 AM
Quote from: G Forever on February 22, 2009, 06:03:22 AM

Can't they tell a difference between the handwriting?

Yes, and the two candidates are Krzyanowski and Tschuppig, according to the above sources.  It seems a little premature to claim the work is by Mahler, since, as the CHANDOS notes indicate, the mystery of who composed it "may never be solved."

And yet CHANDOS sells the work on a Mahler Sixth CD, and the work is scheduled for performances at concerts with Mahler's name.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2009, 07:50:09 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2009, 07:11:44 AM
And yet CHANDOS sells the work on a Mahler Sixth CD, and the work is scheduled for performances at concerts with Mahler's name.

The name Mahler sells better than Bruckner  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 22, 2009, 07:51:04 AM
I started watching DEATH IN VENICE last night. Of course I'm familiar with the fact that the M5, M3, and M4 all figure in the movie, but I'd not seen it since discovering Mahler in 1988. I was confused a little at first by the flashbacks. I thought maybe the character was actually Mahler, but no, he was Gustav Aschenbach. But there was the beautiful wife, the daughter, the music, the name Gustav. I was looking all over for the composing shed. I haven't finished it, as I grew tired, but I will watch the rest today. I wasn't able to find the closed captioning at first, so I missed some story points, I think. I found it in time to watch as the man was slopping disinfectant around.

I didn't think Tadzio was all that beautiful. I thought his "boyfriend" (the guy who kept putting his arm around Tadzio) was a lot better looking. The mens' hair, at least Tadzio's and Aschenbach's, was very "of the moment"--the moment it was shot, not the moment the story took place. My hair in 1971 looked just like Tadzio's, only dark brown. And Aschenbach looked a lot like a friend I hadn't met yet when I saw the movie for the first time in 1971.

If this movie were made today, I suspect Aschenbach's advances and stares would have ended up with him in bed with Tadzio, and it would have had an entirely different outcome. I doubt the movie *would* get made today, given the pedophilia-infused storyline, as it hardly makes sense according to today's sensibilities and storytelling to have the two characters so close, and so much within each other's orbit, without their landing in bed together (or at least the old man's trying to bed the boy and being rejected).

I'm saddened to think that the music made no impression on me when I saw the movie for the first time (1971). I could have been listening to Mahler that much longer.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Haffner on February 22, 2009, 08:08:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2009, 07:50:09 AM
The name Mahler sells better than Bruckner  ;)

Sarge


Which, for me at least, is kind of strange. Although Bruckner had his share of repetitious moments/collection of moments, I seem to be more willing to, say, take a journey through a complete set of his symphonies before Mahler. I mean, both composers are Heavy Metal, but Bruckner is EXTREME-APOCALYPSE-IS-NIGH-SO-SAVE-YO'-BEHIND-Metal.

But then, maybe that's why he doesn't sell as well as Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 22, 2009, 02:18:16 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 22, 2009, 07:51:04 AM
I started watching DEATH IN VENICE last night. Of course I'm familiar with the fact that the M5, M3, and M4 all figure in the movie, but I'd not seen it since discovering Mahler in 1988. I was confused a little at first by the flashbacks. I thought maybe the character was actually Mahler, but no, he was Gustav Aschenbach. But there was the beautiful wife, the daughter, the music, the name Gustav. I was looking all over for the composing shed. I haven't finished it, as I grew tired, but I will watch the rest today. I wasn't able to find the closed captioning at first, so I missed some story points, I think. I found it in time to watch as the man was slopping disinfectant around.

I didn't think Tadzio was all that beautiful. I thought his "boyfriend" (the guy who kept putting his arm around Tadzio) was a lot better looking. The mens' hair, at least Tadzio's and Aschenbach's, was very "of the moment"--the moment it was shot, not the moment the story took place. My hair in 1971 looked just like Tadzio's, only dark brown. And Aschenbach looked a lot like a friend I hadn't met yet when I saw the movie for the first time in 1971.

If this movie were made today, I suspect Aschenbach's advances and stares would have ended up with him in bed with Tadzio, and it would have had an entirely different outcome. I doubt the movie *would* get made today, given the pedophilia-infused storyline, as it hardly makes sense according to today's sensibilities and storytelling to have the two characters so close, and so much within each other's orbit, without their landing in bed together (or at least the old man's trying to bed the boy and being rejected).

I'm saddened to think that the music made no impression on me when I saw the movie for the first time (1971). I could have been listening to Mahler that much longer.



Mann's Death in Venice's  homoerotic subtext - well, main subject, in this instance - would certainly be considered X rated today considering it features an obviously underage youth. In Mann's days the whole thing was still closely connected with the greek antiquity concepts of erastes (lover) and his eromenos (loved one). It didn't have 'bedding the boy' as its goal. Indeed, the Greeks clearly distinguished between the platonic, mentor-like relationship and the more sensual attentions that were reserved for the older boys. Pedophilia as we know it today was frowned upon in ancient Greece. Tadzio in Death in Venice is clearly the eromenos of the beach guard (his erastes). Aschenbach's behaviour (his mental torment and useless tailing of the boy) merely depict his realization that an essential aspect of his being had laid closeted within him until that moment. IMO it's more to do with that concept than the actual object of his attentions. In that sense Tadzio was a mere abstraction. It's interesting to note that at the same period Visconti was engaged in precisely that kind of relation with the young Helmut Berger. Years after Viscontis' death, Berger still claimed the older man to be his 'husband'.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 22, 2009, 07:24:04 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on February 22, 2009, 02:18:16 PM
Mann's Death in Venice's  homoerotic subtext - well, main subject, in this instance - would certainly be considered X rated today considering it features an obviously underage youth. In Mann's days the whole thing was still closely connected with the greek antiquity concepts of erastes (lover) and his eromenos (loved one). It didn't have 'bedding the boy' as its goal. Indeed, the Greeks clearly distinguished between the platonic, mentor-like relationship and the more sensual attentions that were reserved for the older boys. Pedophilia as we know it today was frowned upon in ancient Greece. Tadzio in Death in Venice is clearly the eromenos of the beach guard (his erastes). Aschenbach's behaviour (his mental torment and useless tailing of the boy) merely depict his realization that an essential aspect of his being had laid closeted within him until that moment. IMO it's more to do with that concept than the actual object of his attentions. In that sense Tadzio was a mere abstraction. It's interesting to note that at the same period Visconti was engaged in precisely that kind of relation with the young Helmut Berger. Years after Viscontis' death, Berger still claimed the older man to be his 'husband'.
Thanks for the explication. I finished watching it tonight, and I don't know what to make of it. I liked it more in 1971, somehow. I loved the music, of course, but found it confusing that the writer from the book had been turned into some kind of stand-in for Mahler, with the music, and the booing, and the wife and the daughter (and didn't she die?). I didn't understand this aspect at all 38 years ago.

I found the ending hideous. I almost wish I hadn't watched it. I don't want its images to stick in my head when I listen to the music from now on. And again, I still can't figure out why I didn't like the music enough in 1971 to buy a copy. Do you know whose versions they used?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 06:11:46 AM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 22, 2009, 07:24:04 PM
I found the ending hideous. I almost wish I hadn't watched it. I don't want its images to stick in my head when I listen to the music from now on. And again, I still can't figure out why I didn't like the music enough in 1971 to buy a copy. Do you know whose versions they used?

I believe the music was recorded specifically for the soundtrack: Franco Mannino (conductor), L'Orchestra dell'Academia Di Santa Cecilia.

I've never seen the film, and never will. I don't want Mahler's music associated, in my mind, with the obsession and pursuit of boys, no matter how classically pure or metaphorical the meaning.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 23, 2009, 07:24:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 06:11:46 AM
I believe the music was recorded specifically for the soundtrack: Franco Mannino (conductor), L'Orchestra dell'Academia Di Santa Cecilia.

I've never seen the film, and never will. I don't want Mahler's music associated, in my mind, with the obsession and pursuit of boys, no matter how classically pure or metaphorical the meaning.

Well, I did see the film more than 25 years ago, but I have never ever associated the Adagietto with Visconti and a tragic infatuation with a beautiful boy. Call it compartmentalization...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 07:31:13 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 23, 2009, 07:24:47 AM
Well, I did see the film more than 25 years ago, but I have never ever associated the Adagietto with Visconti and a tragic infatuation with a beautiful boy. Call it compartmentalization...

I'm not sure I could do that. For example, ever since seeing Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors I've not been able to hear the Schubert that accompanies the murder scene without that scene flashing into my head. It's ruined the music for me.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 23, 2009, 07:52:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 07:31:13 AM
I'm not sure I could do that. For example, ever since seeing Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors I've not been able to hear the Schubert that accompanies the murder scene without that scene flashing into my head. It's ruined the music for me.

Sarge

Talking of unwanted associations... I have a confession to make and if you read what I write I might have ruined another great musical moment for you... When I hear that final upward scale of Brian's Sixteenth I am always reminded of a similar moment at the end of the signature tune of The Muppets (This is what we call the Muppet SHOW!)  :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on February 23, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
 ;D

Anyone got this, and if so, what's it like?  I've got his [Haitink doing Mahler] 2nd and one of the best 7ths I've heard, and it is somewhat daft of me to consider YET ANOTHER Mahler collection - but what I have from Haitink is outstanding, and maybe he should be considered as a great Mahler interpreter.
However, I need to hear more, and if this collection is as good as the two symphonies I already have, I'll be raving about it for weeks.

But how does it compare say, to the passion of Bernstein, the drive of Tennstedt or the master musicianship of Neumann and the CPO?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on February 23, 2009, 09:29:38 AM
Quote from: John on February 23, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
;D

Anyone got this, and if so, what's it like?  I've got his [Haitink doing Mahler] 2nd and one of the best 7ths I've heard, and it is somewhat daft of me to consider YET ANOTHER Mahler collection - but what I have from Haitink is outstanding, and maybe he should be considered as a great Mahler interpreter.
However, I need to hear more, and if this collection is as good as the two symphonies I already have, I'll be raving about it for weeks.

Best are 2, 3 and... 7. :)

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 23, 2009, 10:50:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 07:31:13 AM
I'm not sure I could do that. For example, ever since seeing Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors I've not been able to hear the Schubert that accompanies the murder scene without that scene flashing into my head. It's ruined the music for me.

Sarge
I have never liked videos. I don't like to have visuals forced upon me that I may never be able to forget. My memory is VERY susceptible that way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 23, 2009, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: Que on February 23, 2009, 09:29:38 AM
Best are 2, 3 and... 7. :)

There's nothing wrong with 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 either. But perhaps I'm biased - these performances were the first Mahler I collected 30 years ago, starting with the Sixth. I have never compared them, though. They are too much a part of what I take Mahler to be...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 11:30:11 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 23, 2009, 07:52:35 AM
When I hear that final upward scale of Brian's Sixteenth I am always reminded of a similar moment at the end of the signature tune of The Muppets (This is what we call the Muppet SHOW!)  :o

Damn you, Johan!!!

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on February 23, 2009, 11:46:28 AM
Quote from: John on February 23, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
;D

Anyone got this, and if so, what's it like?  I've got his [Haitink doing Mahler] 2nd and one of the best 7ths I've heard, and it is somewhat daft of me to consider YET ANOTHER Mahler collection - but what I have from Haitink is outstanding, and maybe he should be considered as a great Mahler interpreter.
However, I need to hear more, and if this collection is as good as the two symphonies I already have, I'll be raving about it for weeks.

But how does it compare say, to the passion of Bernstein, the drive of Tennstedt or the master musicianship of Neumann and the CPO?

I don't have this box, but I do have many of the individual performances and like them very, very much.  (I even like his Eighth, which was the first version of the piece I ever heard.)  IMHO Haitink is absolutely a great Mahler interpreter.  You might also want to look around for this set of live Mahler performances Haitink recorded on Christmas Day matinees.  Here (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Jan01/Mahler_Sets.htm) are Tony Duggan's comments on MusicWeb.  The set has every symphony except Nos. 6 and 8, and if you like live recordings, these are quite excellent.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 12:15:04 PM
Quote from: John on February 23, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
But how does it compare say, to the passion of Bernstein, the drive of Tennstedt or the master musicianship of Neumann and the CPO?

Closest to Neumann...solild, middle-of-the-road readings with no histrionics or exaggerated tempi in either direction. Mahler and the Concertgebouw (the best Mahler band imo) are the stars. Like Johan, Haitink was my introduction to many of the symphonies (2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 9) and I still own those wonderful Philips LP boxes. I don't have many on CD (I've come to prefer Chailly overall with this orchestra) but I think 3 and 9 should be in every collection. In 40+ years attending concerts, Haitink leading the Clevelanders in the Ninth was the best, and the most moving experience I've ever had in the concert hall...which makes me seriously consider that Christmas box that Bruce mentions.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on February 23, 2009, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 12:15:04 PM
....I think 3 and 9 should be in every collection.

Second on the 9th, still one of the finest around.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on February 23, 2009, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Drasko on February 23, 2009, 12:23:32 PM
Second on the 9th, still one of the finest around.

I admit: I should have mentioned Haitink's 9th as well - Mea Culpa! :)

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 23, 2009, 06:59:45 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2009, 06:43:36 AM
This might be the pdf you're talking about. Found it on Berky's discography:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf

Edit: Or maybe it isn't. I just read it. It makes a case for Bruckner composing the piece.


Sarge
I don't think it is, because the article I read was longer and had musical examples.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on February 23, 2009, 07:11:10 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 22, 2009, 07:51:04 AM
I started watching DEATH IN VENICE last night. Of course I'm familiar with the fact that the M5, M3, and M4 all figure in the movie, but I'd not seen it since discovering Mahler in 1988. I was confused a little at first by the flashbacks. I thought maybe the character was actually Mahler, but no, he was Gustav Aschenbach. But there was the beautiful wife, the daughter, the music, the name Gustav. I was looking all over for the composing shed. I haven't finished it, as I grew tired, but I will watch the rest today. I wasn't able to find the closed captioning at first, so I missed some story points, I think. I found it in time to watch as the man was slopping disinfectant around.

I didn't think Tadzio was all that beautiful. I thought his "boyfriend" (the guy who kept putting his arm around Tadzio) was a lot better looking. The mens' hair, at least Tadzio's and Aschenbach's, was very "of the moment"--the moment it was shot, not the moment the story took place. My hair in 1971 looked just like Tadzio's, only dark brown. And Aschenbach looked a lot like a friend I hadn't met yet when I saw the movie for the first time in 1971.

If this movie were made today, I suspect Aschenbach's advances and stares would have ended up with him in bed with Tadzio, and it would have had an entirely different outcome. I doubt the movie *would* get made today, given the pedophilia-infused storyline, as it hardly makes sense according to today's sensibilities and storytelling to have the two characters so close, and so much within each other's orbit, without their landing in bed together (or at least the old man's trying to bed the boy and being rejected).

I'm saddened to think that the music made no impression on me when I saw the movie for the first time (1971). I could have been listening to Mahler that much longer.


I heard about that movie- sounds completely messed up. They could put Mahler in better places- I wish they could put him in a soundtrack for a new Final Fantasy game (Bruckner, Brahms and Shostakovich, too) (the 4 great symphonists). That would be the most epic soundtrack for anything ever realized.

It could start off with a scene of the protagonist awakening in a field to the beginning of Mahler's 1st, and then end with the closing notes of the 9th to him fading off into space (similar to a scene which actually did happen in one of them). They could have Shostakovich string quartets for some of the villages, Bruckner's 6th for the airship music, Brahms' 2nd for forest music, and mainly use Mahler for very long cut scenes.

Man, now I won't be able to get to sleep having thought of this... a game like that would be like a dream come true- combining all of that into one thing. Excuse me while I make a phone call...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 24, 2009, 05:23:34 PM
Haitink's Concertgebouw studio performances of 1, 4 and 7 are from two vintages, apart from one another by about 10 years. If I'm not mistaken the Philips set contains 1 version 2, 4 and 7 versions 1. IMO they should have retained 4 and 7 from the later, late seventies recordings. There is only one studio performance each of 2, 3, and 5-9. IMO they are among the very best and showcase the damned epithet 'musical' as no others do. Apart from a tepid orchestral conclusion to 2 (Resurrection), I would feel safe to recommend 2, 3, 5, 7 and 9 unreservedly. The first 7th is light and transparent, the second (not included in the set) more ruminative in pacing, more somber yet glowing in textures, but lacking the zest and fantasy of the earlier version - take your pick. No 6 is unsettled, unnervingly light of texture and unimposing, whereas 1 and 8 are gloriously apollinian - meaning, they are gorgeously light and classical in feeling, consciously eschewing any effusiveness or theatricality. Think of the mendelssohnian heritage (not just the symphonies, but the Midsummer Night or Walpurgisnacht music).

In short, this set presents a sharply defined point of view, and it highlights both the excellence of the playing and an unmistakable musical tradition. I'm quite sure Mahler would have been proud.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 25, 2009, 05:24:36 AM
Do these contain the same version of Haitink's RCO M7?

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/72/af/dd38024128a05d7f202cf010.L._AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2Bq8UrRT-L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 26, 2009, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 25, 2009, 05:24:36 AM
Do these contain the same version of Haitink's RCO M7?

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/72/af/dd38024128a05d7f202cf010.L._AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2Bq8UrRT-L._SS500_.jpg)

Yes.

Have you also checked out the BPO 7th on DVD? It is coupled with the 4th and I've heard very good things about it. I've only seen the 3rd in the same series and the video/sound quality is absolutely great (not to mention to top-notch performance).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on February 27, 2009, 12:50:40 AM
Quote from: imperfection on February 26, 2009, 10:07:17 PM
Yes.

If I read Lilas' post correctly, according to him they actually are different. Could someone check? :)

I have the single isue on the left and it's recorded in december 1982.

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 27, 2009, 01:17:52 AM
AFAIK the Haitink box contains the performances from the 60s and 70s. That rules out the 1982 7th (which I prefer to the earlier one, too).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on February 27, 2009, 01:36:32 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 27, 2009, 01:17:52 AM
AFAIK the Haitink box contains the performances from the 60s and 70s. That rules out the 1982 7th (which I prefer to the earlier one, too).

Thanks! :)

And for the 4th? I myself prefer the 1st recording with Elly Ameling ('67) instead of the 2nd with Roberta Alexander. I also got the much lauded new recording with Christine Schäfer... but despite all the accolades for that recording I still prefer the one with Ameling. ::)

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on February 27, 2009, 01:50:49 AM
According to Decca site Haitink box contains first versions of all three symphonies in question [bolded].

1st
BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. September 18 & 20, 1962 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. May 18 to 20, 1972 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

4th
BERNARD HAITINK, Elly Ameling, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. February 20 & 22, 1967 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

BERNARD HAITINK, Roberta Alexander, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. October 3 & 4, 1983 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

7th

BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. December 19 & 22, 1969 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)


BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. December 6 to 13, 1982 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 27, 2009, 07:08:12 AM
Quote from: imperfection on February 26, 2009, 10:07:17 PM
Yes.

Have you also checked out the BPO 7th on DVD? It is coupled with the 4th and I've heard very good things about it. I've only seen the 3rd in the same series and the video/sound quality is absolutely great (not to mention to top-notch performance).
Actually, no. I don't think I've ever heard any of Haitink's Mahler. Or very much else by Haitink, for that matter. When I first started listening to classical, I bought a couple of Penguin Guides, and they weren't particularly kind to Haitink.

And thanks, everyone, for the clarification.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2009, 08:46:49 AM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on February 27, 2009, 07:08:12 AM
When I first started listening to classical, I bought a couple of Penguin Guides, and they weren't particularly kind to Haitink.

While not wildly enthusiastic about the entire cycle, the authors have, over the years, consistently singled out 3, 7, and 9  for special praise (I just checked the '75 and '96 editions). Those are the performances that have gotten the most praise in this forum too. They are definitely worth hearing, and owning.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on February 27, 2009, 09:53:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2009, 08:46:49 AM
While not wildly enthusiastic about the entire cycle, the authors have, over the years, consistently singled out 3, 7, and 9  for special praise (I just checked the '75 and '96 editions). Those are the performances that have gotten the most praise in this forum too. They are definitely worth hearing, and owning.

Sarge
Thanks. I have 9. I'll look for 3 and 7.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 27, 2009, 10:52:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2009, 08:46:49 AM
While not wildly enthusiastic about the entire cycle, the authors have, over the years, consistently singled out 3, 7, and 9  for special praise

Coincidentally, I just recently picked up the Haitink/Con'bouw 3rd (reissued as a Philips "Original" with Das klagende Lied) and I can testify that it's a wonderful performance. No detail in particular jumps out at me; it's just really well done by all concerned, all the way through.

Also crying out for mention - Haitink's great recording of Das Lied von der Erde with Baker and King.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 27, 2009, 10:54:20 AM
Quote from: Que on February 27, 2009, 01:36:32 AM
Thanks! :)

And for the 4th? I myself prefer the 1st recording with Elly Ameling ('67) instead of the 2nd with Roberta Alexander. I also got the much lauded new recording with Christine Schäfer... but despite all the accolades for that recording I still prefer the one with Ameling. ::)

Q

Oh yes - Elly Ameling is unforgettable!

Quote from: Spitvalve on February 27, 2009, 10:52:38 AM
Coincidentally, I just recently picked up the Haitink/Con'bouw 3rd (reissued as a Philips "Original" with Das klagende Lied) and I can testify that it's a wonderful performance. No detail in particular jumps out at me; it's just really well done by all concerned, all the way through.

Also crying out for mention - Haitink's great recording of Das Lied von der Erde with Baker and King.

Certainly for Janet Baker and the Concertgebouw itself.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 27, 2009, 07:15:26 PM
Quote from: Drasko on February 27, 2009, 01:50:49 AM
According to Decca site Haitink box contains first versions of all three symphonies in question [bolded].

1st
BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. September 18 & 20, 1962 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. May 18 to 20, 1972 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

4th
BERNARD HAITINK, Elly Ameling, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. February 20 & 22, 1967 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

BERNARD HAITINK, Roberta Alexander, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. October 3 & 4, 1983 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

7th

BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. December 19 & 22, 1969 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)


BERNARD HAITINK, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra
(rec. December 6 to 13, 1982 in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

The decision to choose the inferior 1962 First symphony for inclusion in the complete set is a strange one. The series was completed around 1972 (symphony 8 IIRC), and the new version of 1 was recorded at the same time. Logically Philips should have kept it instead of going back to the much tamer earlier effort.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on February 27, 2009, 07:59:01 PM
I'm sorry I made a mistake. The Haitink performances are different indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on March 04, 2009, 02:13:38 PM
found this:

http://classiclibrary.blogspot.com/2009/03/gustav-mahler-symhopny-no9-in-d-sir.html

a scanned article from Gramophone magazine about Rattle and him conducting the 9th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on March 04, 2009, 02:43:35 PM
Quote from: G Forever on March 04, 2009, 02:13:38 PM
found this:

http://classiclibrary.blogspot.com/2009/03/gustav-mahler-symhopny-no9-in-d-sir.html

a scanned article from Gramophone magazine about Rattle and him conducting the 9th.
Oh, you've made me go shopping. What am I going to do?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
OK........is it wrong for me to absolutely love Mahler's "complete" 10th?  :-[

I just heard it for the first time in this completed version, and I found it incredible!  Stunning.....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on March 13, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
Quote from: KammerNuss on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
OK........is it wrong for me to absolutely love Mahler's "complete" 10th?  :-[

I just heard it for the first time in this completed version, and I found it incredible!  Stunning.....
Whose completion?  I have Cooke's performed by Rattie/BP and Chailly/RCO, and Barshai conducting his own with the German Youth Philharmonic, and prefer the last.

I think you are right to love it.  When I first heard it, I was amazed by the spiritual repose old Gus seems to have found so late in life after so much anguished striving.  Good on you, mate!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on March 13, 2009, 06:43:36 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 13, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
I think you are right to love it.  When I first heard it, I was amazed by the spiritual repose old Gus seems to have found so late in life after so much anguished striving.  Good on you, mate!
Am I the only who thinks nothing sounds quite like the first movement of the Tenth & the Adagio of the 9th (which is like a continuation)? Just wondering... Seems to me like the most original style of sound he's thought up of, second to maybe the opening movement of the 3rd, which is ridiculous (he did say the world has never heard anything like it, after all). With most of his other stuff, you can hear other composers' attitudes in them, even if not obvious at first.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 13, 2009, 06:56:21 PM
Quote from: Gay Cuban Communist on March 13, 2009, 06:43:36 PM
Am I the only who thinks nothing sounds quite like the first movement of the Tenth & the Adagio of the 9th (which is like a continuation)? Just wondering... Seems to me like the most original style of sound he's thought up of, second to maybe the opening movement of the 3rd, which is ridiculous (he did say the world has never heard anything like it, after all). With most of his other stuff, you can hear other composers' attitudes in them, even if not obvious at first.

I commented elsewhere that the Mahler Tenth Adagio is the only possible FInale for Bruckner's Ninth.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on March 13, 2009, 07:06:13 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 13, 2009, 06:56:21 PM
I commented elsewhere that the Mahler Tenth Adagio is the only possible FInale for Bruckner's Ninth.
I'll have to try listening to it like that one day.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on March 13, 2009, 07:16:43 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 13, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
Whose completion?  I have Cooke's performed by Rattie/BP and Chailly/RCO, and Barshai conducting his own with the German Youth Philharmonic, and prefer the last.

I think you are right to love it.  When I first heard it, I was amazed by the spiritual repose old Gus seems to have found so late in life after so much anguished striving.  Good on you, mate!

The Deryck Cooke performing version 1976/1989, with the 2008 DG recording of VP and Daniel Harding.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 14, 2009, 03:34:38 AM
Quote from: Gay Cuban Communist on March 13, 2009, 07:06:13 PM
I'll have to try listening to it like that one day.  :D

Make sure your soul is ready that day!   0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on March 14, 2009, 08:15:27 AM
Quote from: Gay Cuban Communist on March 13, 2009, 06:43:36 PM
Am I the only who thinks nothing sounds quite like the first movement of the Tenth & the Adagio of the 9th (which is like a continuation)? Just wondering... Seems to me like the most original style of sound he's thought up of, second to maybe the opening movement of the 3rd, which is ridiculous (he did say the world has never heard anything like it, after all). With most of his other stuff, you can hear other composers' attitudes in them, even if not obvious at first.
Because I imprinted on the first movement of M10 coming right after the M9 adagio (see avatar), they have always seemed united, one very logically following the other.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on March 14, 2009, 07:26:41 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on March 14, 2009, 08:15:27 AM
Because I imprinted on the first movement of M10 coming right after the M9 adagio (see avatar), they have always seemed united, one very logically following the other.
Never noticed it until just now!  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 19, 2009, 04:57:41 AM
The connnection is definitely there, something that can't escape anyone who listens to the Adagio of 10 for the first time (assuming they know the 9th of course). But the M10 Adagio as finale for Bruckner 9 is something I've never considered. Since I have a backlog of B9s to listen to, I'll try it that way :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on March 24, 2009, 11:43:03 AM
I got someone on Mahler today. He keeps asking for some classical- last time, I could only offer some Stravinsky chamber works, and he didn't like- he ended up asking if I had some Bach instead. Today, he asked again, and I had Boulez conducting the Mahler 2nd symphony, so I let him listen. He said he really, really, liked it and he loved how the music gets so loud and then quiet- "it's awesome". Really, though, I'd have to say it's unexpected since everyone thinks he's the dumb one of the class- including me, but I'll have to rethink that now.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on March 24, 2009, 11:50:49 AM
Quote from: Gay Cuban Communist on March 24, 2009, 11:43:03 AM
I got someone on Mahler today. He keeps asking for some classical- last time, I could only offer some Stravinsky chamber works, and he didn't like- he ended up asking if I had some Bach instead. Today, he asked again, and I had Boulez conducting the Mahler 2nd symphony, so I let him listen. He said he really, really, liked it and he loved how the music gets so loud and then quiet- "it's awesome". Really, though, I'd have to say it's unexpected since everyone thinks he's the dumb one of the class- including me, but I'll have to rethink that now.  ;D
Likes loud and then quiet, eh?  Probably the first time he's ever heard that if all he's familiar with is pop music with the bejeezus compressed out of all dynamic variation.  (Anyone else tickled by the irony that one of the genuine virtues of digital compared with analog is the greater dynamic range, and yet most of today's digital recordings scarcely vary more than 5dB?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on March 24, 2009, 01:02:59 PM
Haha, good point- never thought of it like that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Diletante on March 27, 2009, 10:04:25 AM
I listened to his 3rd symphony for the first time yesterday (from Sinopoli's cycle). I was already familiar with symphonies 1, 2, 4 and 5. From the moment it started I felt uneasy, for some reason it didn't seem like Mahler to me! The first movement sounded like a bunch of disconnected fragments of music for march band. When the snare drum solo kicked in, I got really nervous. "Did Mahler really write this? What the heck is this, it doesn't sound like the other symphonies!".  :o Honestly I'd never felt this nervous when listening to a piece for the first time.

The second movement relaxed me a bit because it sounded more "Mahlerian" to my ears. And the third movement just REEKED of Mahler and calmed me down completely. Not to mention the fifth movement, which seemed to come right out of the fourth symphony (I know it's the other way around, but I was already familiar with the fourth, so...).

Funny thing, I listened to the first movement again this morning and suddenly it made sense and sounded more like him. Weird.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on March 27, 2009, 10:22:38 AM
The third is funky like that. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on March 27, 2009, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: tanuki on March 27, 2009, 10:04:25 AM
I listened to his 3rd symphony for the first time yesterday (from Sinopoli's cycle). I was already familiar with symphonies 1, 2, 4 and 5. From the moment it started I felt uneasy, for some reason it didn't seem like Mahler to me! The first movement sounded like a bunch of disconnected fragments of music for march band. When the snare drum solo kicked in, I got really nervous. "Did Mahler really write this? What the heck is this, it doesn't sound like the other symphonies!".  :o Honestly I'd never felt this nervous when listening to a piece for the first time.

The second movement relaxed me a bit because it sounded more "Mahlerian" to my ears. And the third movement just REEKED of Mahler and calmed me down completely. Not to mention the fifth movement, which seemed to come right out of the fourth symphony (I know it's the other way around, but I was already familiar with the fourth, so...).

Funny thing, I listened to the first movement again this morning and suddenly it made sense and sounded more like him. Weird.

What do you think of the finale? Isn't that some of the most inspiring, heartwarming and soul-stirring music Mahler ever wrote? However, I must say that the ending of Sinopoli's version is not very well done; the tone of the orchestra in the closing bars lack warmth. That is mainly due to overly bright trumpets which may or may not have been the engineer's fault...and the last fermata chord is supposed to be really sustained and rounded off when released, as Mahler specifically says in the score not to abruptly cut the end off. In Sinopoli's version however, the strings don't cut off last and therefore there's no "ring" to the last chord. The whole orchestra cuts off together, therefore it does sound a little sudden and inappropriate for ending such an epic, grandiose movement (and symphony).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Diletante on March 27, 2009, 04:25:16 PM
Quote from: imperfection on March 27, 2009, 10:32:41 AM
What do you think of the finale? Isn't that some of the most inspiring, heartwarming and soul-stirring music Mahler ever wrote?

Oh yes!  :D It reminds me of the finale of Tchaikovsky's Sixth.

Quote from: imperfection on March 27, 2009, 10:32:41 AMHowever, I must say that the ending of Sinopoli's version is not very well done.

I see. Whose version would you recommend?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on March 27, 2009, 06:37:33 PM
Quote from: tanuki on March 27, 2009, 04:25:16 PM
I see. Whose version would you recommend?

I'm not imperfection, but early Bernstein, early Haitink, and Boulez are all superb, with Abbado/VPO, Gielen and Chailly following closely.

(In my opinion, that is. Although if we count all formats, the Abbado DVD with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra is a must.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on March 28, 2009, 07:10:29 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 27, 2009, 06:37:33 PM
I'm not imperfection, but early Bernstein, early Haitink, and Boulez are all superb, with Abbado/VPO, Gielen and Chailly following closely.

(In my opinion, that is. Although if we count all formats, the Abbado DVD with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra is a must.)

I generally agree with Renfield. Would also like to add the Bernstein DG 3rd, which has a gorgeous and spellbinding finale. If you want a DVD, get the Abbado DVD or the Haitink/BPO. I myself prefer the latter because I simply think it is more epic and grandiose, as opposed to Abbado's lyrical, intimate chamber approach.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Diletante on March 28, 2009, 09:29:19 PM
All right! Thanks for the suggestions, I'll try to get the Bernstein.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on March 29, 2009, 06:40:40 PM
Quote from: tanuki on March 28, 2009, 09:29:19 PM
All right! Thanks for the suggestions, I'll try to get the Bernstein.

For the 6th, which I gathered you aren't familiar with yet, try Barbirolli for a majestic, grandiose reading that perfectly fits the epic magnitude of the piece. Bernstein's (DG) is an emotional roller coaster also, perhaps as heavy as the former. However, I think the Italian got the heartbreaking Andante just right, especially at one of the climaxes where the harp glissando adds tonal colour to the mix -- a huge block of lush orchestral sound, that is; the recording literally creamed my pants. Definitely one of the great 6ths. If you get it on the Great Recordings of The Century EMI series, it is coupled with Strauss' A Hero's Life too, but I haven't heard that one yet, although it received fantastic reviews from critics and fans alike.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 06:50:37 PM
Quote from: imperfection on March 29, 2009, 06:40:40 PM
However, I think the Italian got the heartbreaking Andante just right, especially at one of the climaxes where the harp glissando adds tonal colour to the mix -- a huge block of lush orchestral sound, that is; the recording literally creamed my pants.

He was a Londoner, but yes, the recording is very good. Alongside the Barbirolli and the DG Bernstein, I'd definitely recommend the Karajan (recently discussed in the Karajan Legacy thread); as well as any Mitropoulos version you can get your hands on, if you don't mind historical sound.

And "for something completely different", have a look at the Boulez.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on March 29, 2009, 07:05:00 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 06:50:37 PM
He was a Londoner, but yes, the recording is very good. Alongside the Barbirolli and the DG Bernstein, I'd definitely recommend the Karajan (recently discussed in the Karajan Legacy thread); as well as any Mitropoulos version you can get your hands on, if you don't mind historical sound.

And "for something completely different", have a look at the Boulez.
My favorite M6 is Bernstein's on CBS. I couldn't listen to anything else for years. I've heard the others mentioned, and the only one I really like is Karajan's.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Diletante on March 29, 2009, 07:14:32 PM
Gee, thanks, guys. I've never heard anything directed by Barbirolli, so this might be a good chance to try him.

I'm still pretty much ignorant as far as conductors go, so I really appreciate the advice. I just know that I've liked every Bernstein interpretation I've heard. I have DG videos of him with the Wiener Philarmoniker conducting symphonies 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 07:17:33 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on March 29, 2009, 07:05:00 PM
My favorite M6 is Bernstein's on CBS. I couldn't listen to anything else for years. I've heard the others mentioned, and the only one I really like is Karajan's.

From what I remember of it, the CBS Bernstein is indeed very good - I'd just (personally) consider it superseded by the DG. :)

Although I can see how you might not particularly appreciate the expansiveness of the VPO account.


Edit: And no worries, tanuki. Do try Barbirolli, he was an exceptional conductor; more so, make sure to try his Mahler 5th, as well!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on March 29, 2009, 09:24:25 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 07:17:33 PM
From what I remember of it, the CBS Bernstein is indeed very good - I'd just (personally) consider it superseded by the DG. :)

Although I can see how you might not particularly appreciate the expansiveness of the VPO account.


Edit: And no worries, tanuki. Do try Barbirolli, he was an exceptional conductor; more so, make sure to try his Mahler 5th, as well!

Then the 9th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on March 29, 2009, 09:44:04 PM
Quote from: imperfection on March 29, 2009, 09:24:25 PM
Then the 9th.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on March 30, 2009, 03:45:16 PM
I was just listening to Sinopoli's 6th, what an exquisite performance. All instruments are heard, the sound of the orchestra is extremely transparent and clear yet powerful enough to engulf the audience in a tight grip until the epic finale is over. Interpretation wise, bits of unique insight here and there, perhaps the first movement is a bit flaccid if one is accustomed to Barbirolli/Solti/Bernstein, but the playing of the PO is nothing to sneeze at; their blend is gorgeous. Sinopoli uses extreme rubato to create a emotional, but deeply thought over, analyzed reading. The Andante Moderato is almost 20 minutes long! The recorded sound couldn't have been bettered, you can leave your volume knobs at 30% or lower and still hear all the orchestral sound effects and colorful instrumental timbres Mahler wrote in the complex score.

If you have any doubts about the idiosyncratic interpretations of the conductor, at least get this set for the amazing orchestral sound produced by the PO here. It is almost as unique and distinctive as Karajan's BPO, at that's saying something. Renfield, you should get it ASAP so we can discuss it  :). Right now, not a lot of members have this cycle and I'm enjoying this wonderful set all alone... :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on March 30, 2009, 08:14:04 PM
Well, ASAP might take a while, as I have quite a number of things I would rather spend ca. £80 on, than yet another Mahler cycle, and before I've gone through Maazel's, which is still practically in shrink-wrap! But I certainly am interested, so it's probably coming sooner or later. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 06, 2009, 03:32:05 PM
Quote from: Renfield on March 30, 2009, 08:14:04 PM
Well, ASAP might take a while, as I have quite a number of things I would rather spend ca. £80 on, than yet another Mahler cycle, and before I've gone through Maazel's, which is still practically in shrink-wrap! But I certainly am interested, so it's probably coming sooner or later. :)

Nothing to cream your pants about IMO, but a very interesting cycle for peripheral reasons. A more typically "mahlerian" cycle is probably Bertini's, and a more straightforwardly musical one would have Haitink leading the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra. Maazel's Mahler has always reminded me of some stuff like Bernstein's DG remakes of Copland, Harris, Schumann or Brahms: gorgeous stuff from someone who had veered from bracing, exciting music making to something more personal, more reflective - inward vs outward-looking.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 16, 2009, 03:46:44 PM
I have to ask- anyone out there who thinks Mahler 8 is like a drone? Sure, I enjoy it for a few minutes at a time- it's one of the most ecstatic pieces ever written. The problem for me is lack of variation in mood- there's hardly a second which doesn't feel like it's heading towards some joyous apocalyptic orgasm. This is great, but at least for me, it's just too much.

Right now, I've been digging into both Bernstein's and Chailly's sets for the first time. I've heard all of Bernstein and I've heard Chailly's 5th a while ago and thought it was nearly perfect, and have listened to his 10th a few days ago and thought it was as close to perfect as you can get. Seriously, when I listened, I thought I was going to die, it was that good. In contrast to Bernstein's recording of the Adagio, he takes it slower and when that F# major chord opens up, you hear strings, not winds/brass. In my opinion, that's how it should sound! Plus, with Bernstein, it sounds like the cellos are screaming in place of the more important lines, which just sounds weird. Maybe it's a first recording bias, since I'm used to hearing Wigglesworth...

I do like some Bernstein, though. I listened to his Resurrection a few years ago and hated it, but this time I thought it sounded good- especially the second movement, which kind of hesitates to play itself, which I think is good to do after that wild opening movement. All the energy is gone and the last thing I want to hear is something that sounds like a folk song- but in this version, it just makes sense. His 9th is very, very good, but I'm not sure his flavor conforms to my palette, especially with the vibrato in the trumpet- it reminds me too much of jazz, and can sound cheesy to me if I pay too much attention to it.

I can't wait to finish listening to Chailly, I have a feeling he might end up being one of my favorite conductors, if not my favorite...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on April 16, 2009, 06:08:52 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on April 16, 2009, 03:46:44 PM
I have to ask- anyone out there who thinks Mahler 8 is like a drone? Sure, I enjoy it for a few minutes at a time- it's one of the most ecstatic pieces ever written. The problem for me is lack of variation in mood- there's hardly a second which doesn't feel like it's heading towards some joyous apocalyptic orgasm. This is great, but at least for me, it's just too much.

Right now, I've been digging into both Bernstein's and Chailly's sets for the first time. I've heard all of Bernstein and I've heard Chailly's 5th a while ago and thought it was nearly perfect, and have listened to his 10th a few days ago and thought it was as close to perfect as you can get. Seriously, when I listened, I thought I was going to die, it was that good. In contrast to Bernstein's recording of the Adagio, he takes it slower and when that F# major chord opens up, you hear strings, not winds/brass. In my opinion, that's how it should sound! Plus, with Bernstein, it sounds like the cellos are screaming in place of the more important lines, which just sounds weird. Maybe it's a first recording bias, since I'm used to hearing Wigglesworth...

I do like some Bernstein, though. I listened to his Resurrection a few years ago and hated it, but this time I thought it sounded good- especially the second movement, which kind of hesitates to play itself, which I think is good to do after that wild opening movement. All the energy is gone and the last thing I want to hear is something that sounds like a folk song- but in this version, it just makes sense. His 9th is very, very good, but I'm not sure his flavor conforms to my palette, especially with the vibrato in the trumpet- it reminds me too much of jazz, and can sound cheesy to me if I pay too much attention to it.

I can't wait to finish listening to Chailly, I have a feeling he might end up being one of my favorite conductors, if not my favorite...

I have been listening to Chailly for the first time this year, and I share your opinion of his 5th. It's almost impossibly good. Same with his 8th. I could not stop listening to it on Sunday. I listen to it on Sundays a lot, the 8th, usually by Sinopoli or Bernstein (CBS). I used to listen to the 5th a lot on Saturday mornings; the 4th in winter; the 3rd in spring and summer; the 1st in the morning; 7 and 9 at night, anytime of year. 2, anytime of day or year. I think I burned out on the 6th, I've played it so much in the past.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 16, 2009, 07:08:24 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 16, 2009, 06:08:52 PM
I have been listening to Chailly for the first time this year, and I share your opinion of his 5th. It's almost impossibly good. Same with his 8th. I could not stop listening to it on Sunday. I listen to it on Sundays a lot, the 8th, usually by Sinopoli or Bernstein (CBS). I used to listen to the 5th a lot on Saturday mornings; the 4th in winter; the 3rd in spring and summer; the 1st in the morning; 7 and 9 at night, anytime of year. 2, anytime of day or year. I think I burned out on the 6th, I've played it so much in the past.
I think a lot of people think that about the Chailly 5th- when I asked about it, probably a couple thousand pages back on this thread, several people, including M Forever, said it was the best recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 17, 2009, 07:31:37 AM
Listened to Chailly 9 last night (outer movements). I think I like the very slow tempo at the beginning of the first movement. Generally, the quiet sections were well-played, but there are some serious balancing issues in this movement- including some moments were you can't even hear the main line. What I'd like to hear is a recording with a very slow tempo at the beginning that gets the balancing right (and has spark) to the louder moments during the development.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 17, 2009, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on April 17, 2009, 07:31:37 AM
What I'd like to hear is a recording with a very slow tempo at the beginning that gets the balancing right (and has spark) to the louder moments during the development.

Which Bernstein have you heard? And have you heard Klemperer? :)


(Incidentally, I've been away for a while, and will likely be away for a little while more.

If anyone needs something, or I've promised him/her something that I've forgotten, or there's something I should be aware of, let me know!)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 17, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Actually, for the 9th, what I listened to was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZhPE_XFY7I

I have the box set of Bernstein, so I'm just assuming this was the same as from the set. Maybe it's not?...
No, I haven't heard the Klemperer... is his performance what I described?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on April 17, 2009, 08:20:51 PM
Right now I am thoroughly enjoying the ten disc collection of Mahler being conducted by Bernard Haitink. He is one of our outstanding, but sadly often neglected conductors - and he is a  contemporary, still very much alive maestro:

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on April 17, 2009, 09:15:53 PM
I do like the Chailly M5 very much, especially for the jaw-dropping sound Decca gives us. The only reservation I have about the performance is the Adagietto -- perhaps I'm too used to Karajan's massive, extremely polished and drop-dead gorgeous rendition.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 18, 2009, 07:20:56 AM
Quote from: Bahamut on April 17, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Actually, for the 9th, what I listened to was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZhPE_XFY7I

I have the box set of Bernstein, so I'm just assuming this was the same as from the set. Maybe it's not?...
No, I haven't heard the Klemperer... is his performance what I described?

Try Bernstein on DG, with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There are innumerable complaints about how "slow" and "exaggerated" the performance is, but I still agree with the minority(?) who consider it a success; and (if I've understood correctly) it might be very close to what you want. :)


Klemperer (EMI) is one of my benchmark 9ths - and obviously not just mine!

It's measured, a 'reading of proportions', in the Klemperer style, but very effective, and hard to match in terms of balancing the work overall.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on April 18, 2009, 08:00:43 AM
Quote from: Renfield on April 18, 2009, 07:20:56 AM
Try Bernstein on DG, with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There are innumerable complaints about how "slow" and "exaggerated" the performance is, but I still agree with the minority(?) who consider it a success; and (if I've understood correctly) it might be very close to what you want. :)
If it's a minority, then (as is often the case) the minority has it right--Lennie's RCO Nine is mighty fine.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on April 18, 2009, 09:46:15 AM
Quote from: Bahamut on April 17, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Actually, for the 9th, what I listened to was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZhPE_XFY7I

I have the box set of Bernstein, so I'm just assuming this was the same as from the set. Maybe it's not?...
I believe it's the same, the one with the NYPO. It's still my favorite after all these years (21). I am one of those who find the last movement of his DG 9th too slow (though I like the slow 2nd on DG just fine).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 18, 2009, 07:58:40 PM
Quote from: Renfield on April 18, 2009, 07:20:56 AM
Try Bernstein on DG, with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There are innumerable complaints about how "slow" and "exaggerated" the performance is, but I still agree with the minority(?) who consider it a success; and (if I've understood correctly) it might be very close to what you want. :)


Klemperer (EMI) is one of my benchmark 9ths - and obviously not just mine!

It's measured, a 'reading of proportions', in the Klemperer style, but very effective, and hard to match in terms of balancing the work overall.

Excellent- thanks!  :) I'll have to catch that Klemperer.

Ok... i've searched youtube and this is supposedly the DG recording... it doesn't say anywhere on the page but has a cover of that recording on the 3rd video in the set. It sounds like the same tempo as the other, though- maybe it is?  ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjuWwc-H4IY&feature=PlayList&p=62AE77D835E93C9F&index=0&playnext=1

Also, what do you think of Karajan's recording? This is the one that I've based my observations on...

And... out of sheer curiosity, have you heard Bruno Walter?
phewww i'm done.... i won't bother you any more, I promise.  8)

(fingers crossed behind my back)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 18, 2009, 08:47:11 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on April 18, 2009, 07:58:40 PM
Excellent- thanks!  :) I'll have to catch that Klemperer.

Ok... i've searched youtube and this is supposedly the DG recording... it doesn't say anywhere on the page but has a cover of that recording on the 3rd video in the set. It sounds like the same tempo as the other, though- maybe it is?  ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjuWwc-H4IY&feature=PlayList&p=62AE77D835E93C9F&index=0&playnext=1

Also, what do you think of Karajan's recording? This is the one that I've based my observations on...

And... out of sheer curiosity, have you heard Bruno Walter?
phewww i'm done.... i won't bother you any more, I promise.  8)

(fingers crossed behind my back)

Right, one by one:


Firstly, yes, that one seems to be the Concertgebouw recording (in the quoted link).


Secondly, which Karajan? The studio version is cooler, and slightly more 'clinical' (but not necessarily less effective) than the live. And of course, suffice it to say, I quite adore both; but Karajan's reading falls under the 'consistent individual interpretation'* class of Mahler 9ths.

Which is not to denigrate it: it's still my favourite Mahler 9th! In combining suavity, compassion, the most heartfelt irk, and that understanding nod towards it all before the end, i.e. the 'Zen' (so to speak) reading of the 9th, I don't think Karajan has a match.

However, this is still the Mahler 9th we're talking about. It's easily complex enough (understatement) a piece to warrant a number of different possible interpretations, views, 'takes', call-them-what-you-will. And Walter, since you mentioned him, sits in the opposite bank (compared to Karajan): his reading - especially in the 1938 incarnation, which you need to hear if you haven't already - is, for lack of a better term, on fire.

And his much later Columbia recording is also worth hearing, even if not quite as definitive IMO. :)


*As opposed to great readings like Klemperer's, that appear to aim more towards fully highlighting the musical content, without any explicit point-making. Of course, you may question whether this distinction exists; still, compare Chailly to late Bernstein (another 'point-making' reading)!


[Bother at will, now that I'm available; if I suddenly stop responding, you may have to wait for a couple of weeks. ;)]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 19, 2009, 07:51:13 PM
Quote
Secondly, which Karajan?
This one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5173EVG2HJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Quote
Which is not to denigrate it: it's still my favourite Mahler 9th!
lol! That's the only one I'm very much familiar with- if I just decided to play the whole symphony in my head right now, every note would be Karajan's.
I have to say, Karajan does such an excellent job with clarity, too- even during the messy passages. You can hear everything. It's hard to imagine anyone "beating" him. But I have heard things in the two other recordings I've heard recently (Bernstein, Chailly) which have caught my attention in a positive way, even though they sound different from Karajan- just proving your point that the symphony is highly interpretable, eh?  8)


QuoteAnd Walter, since you mentioned him, sits in the opposite bank (compared to Karajan): his reading - especially in the 1938 incarnation, which you need to hear if you haven't already - is, for lack of a better term, on fire.
I'll think of fire when I listen.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Diletante on April 25, 2009, 11:54:41 AM
Listened to the 6th for the first time last night (again from Sinopoli's cycle). Very nice, most of it sounded "typically Mahler" to my ears. There was a part where the music got quiet and you could hear seemingly random percussion in the background (in the 3rd movement, I think). I thought that part sounded really modern, which is a plus in my book.  :)

Big surprise in the end, though. I was listening to those very quiet and entrancing notes in the end. I got very close to the speakers, trying to catch all the fading notes. I was about to turn the volume up so as to not miss any, when BAM!!!!  :o.

Made me jump all right!  ;D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2009, 12:28:27 PM
Quote from: tanuki on April 25, 2009, 11:54:41 AM
Listened to the 6th for the first time last night (again from Sinopoli's cycle). Very nice, most of it sounded "typically Mahler" to my ears. There was a part where the music got quiet and you could hear seemingly random percussion in the background (in the 3rd movement, I think). I thought that part sounded really modern, which is a plus in my book.  :)

Big surprise in the end, though. I was listening to those very quiet and entrancing notes in the end. I got very close to the speakers, trying to catch all the fading notes. I was about to turn the volume up so as to not miss any, when BAM!!!!  :o.

Made me jump all right!  ;D

;D :D ;D  ...yeah, that moment will do that to you. I remember playing my first recording the first time (I'd already heard it live, in Cleveland, Szell conducting). I knew what to expect...but the cat didn't! She was so startled she jumped straight up a good five feet  :D  Actually, that moment still takes me by surprise--the emotional intensity--every single time I hear it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on April 26, 2009, 02:29:03 PM
I've always likened that descent to the threshold of audibility to the reverse of Fafner's awakening in Siegfried. More power to Mahler to have followed it by that frightening sonic explosion. Every good version I've heard makes more of that moment than the two hammerblows combined. Truly one of the most startling effects in all music, equalled only by the savage bass drum thwacks in Verdi's Requiem (Dies Irae).

Something simply unheard of, it punches you in the solar plexus.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 26, 2009, 05:50:50 PM
Was there ever a more 'Nihilistic' work written before the 6th?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2009, 01:31:49 AM
Quote from: Bahamut on April 26, 2009, 05:50:50 PM
Was there ever a more 'Nihilistic' work written before the 6th?

Perhaps certain viol consort music of the 17th century (Purcell comes to mind) but other than that I can't think of any music written before the 20th century whose message is so hopelessly dark. Whenever I've heard the Sixth live, the applause seems incongruous. What are we clapping for? our certain death? I think the audience should remain silent after the final movement, and stay silent until they're in a place where large whiskeys are served  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on April 28, 2009, 02:29:27 AM
The Gergiev 8th got a stunning review in the latest IRR issue. Anybody heard it?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2009, 03:17:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2009, 01:31:49 AM
Perhaps certain viol consort music of the 17th century (Purcell comes to mind) but other than that I can't think of any music written before the 20th century whose message is so hopelessly dark.

Mozart's C minor Piano Concerto KV 491 fits the bill for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 28, 2009, 07:41:36 AM
Quote from: erato on April 28, 2009, 02:29:27 AM
The Gergiev 8th got a stunning review in the latest IRR issue. Anybody heard it?

As often with releases of this sort (and as I'm collecting the Gergiev cycle), I have it, but have not listened to it yet. In fact, I hadn't even listened to his 2nd until about last week, so I wouldn't necessarily hold my breath over my thoughts on it, if I were you. ;)

P.S.: That having been said, Gergiev's treatment of the choral part of the 2nd bodes very well indeed for the 8th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 28, 2009, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2009, 01:31:49 AM
Perhaps certain viol consort music of the 17th century (Purcell comes to mind) but other than that I can't think of any music written before the 20th century whose message is so hopelessly dark. Whenever I've heard the Sixth live, the applause seems incongruous. What are we clapping for? our certain death? I think the audience should remain silent after the final movement, and stay silent until they're in a place where large whiskeys are served  ;D

Sarge
I think you'd agree with the guy who wrote the top comment on this page  ;D :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QheCUBmKD5s&feature=related

(a performance I really like, btw, although I don't like his occasional halt at the end of bars with notes connecting to phrases to the next measure...)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 30, 2009, 05:02:19 AM
FYI

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518)

Mahler, Introduction 1.1

Much more to follow when WETA starts its (as yet not scheduled) Mahler-Month.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on April 30, 2009, 05:20:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 30, 2009, 05:02:19 AM
FYI

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518)

Mahler, Introduction 1.1

Much more to follow when WETA starts its (as yet not scheduled) Mahler-Month.
What a lovely, wonderful article, Jens.

Do you know if other PBS stations will be broadcasting Mahler Month?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on April 30, 2009, 07:54:32 AM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 30, 2009, 05:20:54 AM
What a lovely, wonderful article, Jens.
I particularly enjoyed this line: "'Determination' in Mahler is like a hammer hitting a pool of mercury."  I also agree that Mahler is incomprehensible without some understanding of fin-de-siècle Vienna.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on April 30, 2009, 12:26:52 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2009, 07:54:32 AM
I particularly enjoyed this line: "'Determination' in Mahler is like a hammer hitting a pool of mercury."  I also agree that Mahler is incomprehensible without some understanding of fin-de-siècle Vienna.
I come by it genetically, I guess, my love of Mahler. My mother's father was born in fin-de-siècle Vienna.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 30, 2009, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 30, 2009, 05:20:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 30, 2009, 05:02:19 AM
FYI
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518)
Mahler, Introduction 1.1
Much more to follow when WETA starts its (as yet not scheduled) Mahler-Month.

What a lovely, wonderful article, Jens.

Do you know if other PBS stations will be broadcasting Mahler Month?

Thanks for the kind words.

That's the first 1/3 of just the introduction to a 40 page piece on my favorite versions of the symphonies... snipped off at the end according to word-count. But it works surprisingly well as a stand-alone, I would like to think.

----

I don't know of any other stations that will do a Mahler month... this is solely a local decision if & when it happens. And if so, it'll be because WETA's program manager has built up his "drive time credits" with tenacious Vivaldi- and Spohr-playing to the point where he can indulge us Mahler-nuts thus and thereby go a quite a bit beyond the established consensus of what works well on radio and what doesn't.

I, for one, very much hope that if Mahler month commences, it will be a success and that people will actually congratulate the station for doing that in a time when classical music on radio in the US (outside a few metropolitan areas, perhaps) is not only on the decline but also moving toward greater blandness and predictability. We'll see how things work out. I have my hopes up for some time this summer, maybe.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 01, 2009, 02:57:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 30, 2009, 05:02:19 AM
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518)
Mahler, Introduction 1.1
Much more to follow when WETA starts its (as yet not scheduled) Mahler-Month.

"...there are moments in his symphonies where the music seems more disoriented than a butterfly with ADD."

;D :D ;D ...wonderfully descriptive metaphor. Looking forward to the rest of the article.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 01, 2009, 03:33:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 30, 2009, 02:12:23 PM
I don't know of any other stations that will do a Mahler month... this is solely a local decision if & when it happens. And if so, it'll be because WETA's program manager has built up his "drive time credits" with tenacious Vivaldi- and Spohr-playing to the point where he can indulge us Mahler-nuts thus and thereby go a quite a bit beyond the established consensus of what works well on radio and what doesn't.

I, for one, very much hope that if Mahler month commences, it will be a success and that people will actually congratulate the station for doing that in a time when classical music on radio in the US (outside a few metropolitan areas, perhaps) is not only on the decline but also moving toward greater blandness and predictability. We'll see how things work out. I have my hopes up for some time this summer, maybe.

I have e-mailed my local classical station (WQED) your article and the Carnegie Hall announcement. I hope they'll be interested enough. WQED went nuts over Mahler a few years back when the Pittsburgh Symphony went to Rome and played M2 for the Pope. But mostly it's Baroque and the Single-Movement Movement that get airtime here (though they do air a considerable portion of chamber music I enjoy).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 10, 2009, 11:25:40 AM
I'm listening to a M6 I almost never play, the one by Mitropolous. I didn't like it much when I first bought it, dismissing the first movement as "slow" (Bernstein's on CBS is my favorite, and my imprint, version, so...), but today, over headphones, I'm getting more of a sense of tragedy from Mitropolous than I usually perceive from Bernstein's. It's more the theme for Totalitarianism Takes Over than other versions, at least the first movement. It's more bleak-sounding all over, I'd say, than Bernstein's. I don't think I like it more, but it's a lot more interesting than I orginally thought.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 10, 2009, 02:53:40 PM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on May 10, 2009, 11:25:40 AM
I'm listening to a M6 I almost never play, the one by Mitropolous. I didn't like it much when I first bought it, dismissing the first movement as "slow" (Bernstein's on CBS is my favorite, and my imprint, version, so...), but today, over headphones, I'm getting more of a sense of tragedy from Mitropolous than I usually perceive from Bernstein's. It's more the theme for Totalitarianism Takes Over than other versions, at least the first movement. It's more bleak-sounding all over, I'd say, than Bernstein's. I don't think I like it more, but it's a lot more interesting than I orginally thought.

Mitropolous in the 6th (WDR for me, not NYP--which I don't have) is, for me, about as good as it gets (sound quality apart, obviously). Bleak, craggy, harsh, brutal... relentless and unforgiving. Arrrgh! Barbirolli is of the same mold (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/01/dip-your-ears-no-95.html).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 10, 2009, 08:06:33 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 10, 2009, 02:53:40 PM
Mitropolous in the 6th (WDR for me, not NYP--which I don't have) is, for me, about as good as it gets (sound quality apart, obviously). Bleak, craggy, harsh, brutal... relentless and unforgiving. Arrrgh! Barbirolli is of the same mold (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/01/dip-your-ears-no-95.html).

Nice review of the Barbirolli. Has anyone heard all of the four EMI versions? http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m_9_9?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=mahler+6+barbirolli&x=0&y=0&sprefix=mahler+6+
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 11, 2009, 12:15:19 AM
Quote from: nicht schleppend on May 10, 2009, 08:06:33 PM
Nice review of the Barbirolli. Has anyone heard all of the four EMI versions? http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m_9_9?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=mahler+6+barbirolli&x=0&y=0&sprefix=mahler+6+

3 out of 4. The GroC is the best, SQ-wise (least noise, at least)... but with B's kind of performance, the not-HiFi sound of the Rouge et Noir kind of adds to the atmosphere. Even after knowing the difference I'd not actually go out of my way to replace it (or the gEMIni) with the GRoC. And of course the GRoC has re-re-arranged the movements to fit Barbirolli's intentions (and again-Mahler standard) of "Andante-Scherzo". Barbirolli's intentions notwithstanding, it's just the kind of performance that yearns for "Scherzo-Andante", so that's a disadvantage for me. (Sure we could program our CD players to get around that, but really: who ever does that? CD in, click play, listen. We're all(*) lazy.)

Cheers,

jfl


* Everyone to whom this doesn't apply is hereby exempted. Don't waste a post on telling me that you are not lazy, please.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 11, 2009, 03:26:02 AM
I admire Mitropoulos' Cologne 6th a lot, as well. It's uniquely crushing, in the brutal sense of the word, among the (fairly many) 6ths I'm acquainted with. But I also have the New York broadcast from the recent Music & Arts "Mitropoulos Edition", which I do need to spin before long!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 11, 2009, 05:13:42 AM
Something else I listened to again last night, and find very interesting, is Levine's 7th. It's another one where you get to stop and smell the roses, i.e., all those interesting little details with which Mahler packed this symphony. Excluding the last movement, it's hard for me to understand why this symphony is considered the least, or the worst, of the ten. I like it better -- have always liked it better -- than most of the rest. Of course, it took me no time at all to fall in love with Mahler's music in general, twenty-some years ago.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MDL on May 13, 2009, 01:17:19 PM
Flicking through the Southbank brochure last night, I realised that during the winter2009/spring2010 season, there are four performances of Mahler's Resurrection Symphony (two from Jurowski, one each from Inbal and Alsop). Love Maher 2 as I do, I still can't help thinking that that's too much of a good thing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 13, 2009, 01:33:56 PM
Quote from: MDL on May 13, 2009, 01:17:19 PM
Flicking through the Southbank brochure last night, I realised that during the winter2009/spring2010 season, there are four performances of Mahler's Resurrection Symphony (two from Jurowski, one each from Inbal and Alsop). Love Maher 2 as I do, I still can't help thinking that that's too much of a good thing.

That does seem a bit excessive!  ???

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 14, 2009, 10:02:05 AM
Here; I knew this would happen!  Bruce finally gets a day off from the Mahler-a-Go-Go, and he completely shuts down!  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MDL on May 14, 2009, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: bhodges on May 13, 2009, 01:33:56 PM
That does seem a bit excessive!  ???

--Bruce

Of the four (because it would be stupid not to catch at least one), I think I'll go for the second Jurowski/LPO performance, which is coupled with Kurtag's astounding Stele. The Inbal and Alsop performances are with the Philharmonia.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 16, 2009, 05:23:53 PM
The Bonghartz 6th is back at BRO  !!

QuoteLabel: WEITBLICK
BRO Code: 127153
Label Cat. #: SSS 0053-2
Mahler, Symphony #6. (Leipzig Radio Orchestra/ Heinz Bongartz. Rec. 6/30/69)    
Add to Cart
Price: $6.99

Don't be misled by the relatively unknown orchestra, conductor, recording date and label.  It's one of the great, defining performances of the work. It should please those who swear by Barbirolli's pesante version but secretly wish he'd be slightly more aggressive.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 18, 2009, 09:57:24 AM
I am reeeeallly liking Tennstedt. Listened to the first three symphonies, and they are some of the best I've heard. It was odd to hear the Finale of the 3rd being played so fast, but it seemed to work great, and had just as much punch as any other recording. The brass sounds so perfect and clear in that movement, too.

Also, finished listening to Kaplan's Mahler 2nd I was talking about and also listened to Kondrashin's 6th and Ormandy's 10th. Well, the Kondrashin was amusing, though not much else (being one of the very fastest 6ths out there) and Ormandy's 10th is extremely well-played. I haven't heard better middle movements than this, and they're played so well that the performance almost convinces me to like them. The opening movement, though, is just way too fast for my taste, so I'd still take Chailly over Ormandy just because of that.

And I finished listening to Kubelik's set. The set is okay, but my favorite was definitely the 4th. I thought there couldn't be a recording better than Szell's out there until I heard this one. Szell is more danceable and precise, but Kubelik just seems more fun.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on May 19, 2009, 08:57:43 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on May 18, 2009, 09:57:24 AM
I am reeeeallly liking Tennstedt. Listened to the first three symphonies, and they are some of the best I've heard. It was odd to hear the Finale of the 3rd being played so fast, but it seemed to work great, and had just as much punch as any other recording. The brass sounds so perfect and clear in that movement, too.

Also, finished listening to Kaplan's Mahler 2nd I was talking about and also listened to Kondrashin's 6th and Ormandy's 10th. Well, the Kondrashin was amusing, though not much else (being one of the very fastest 6ths out there) and Ormandy's 10th is extremely well-played. I haven't heard better middle movements than this, and they're played so well that the performance almost convinces me to like them. The opening movement, though, is just way too fast for my taste, so I'd still take Chailly over Ormandy just because of that.

And I finished listening to Kubelik's set. The set is okay, but my favorite was definitely the 4th. I thought there couldn't be a recording better than Szell's out there until I heard this one. Szell is more danceable and precise, but Kubelik just seems more fun.

Interesting...to me, the finale of the 3rd is the movement that practically begs for a Celibidachean interpretation: broad, majestic, spiritual; but above all, utterly beautiful and soulful.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 19, 2009, 09:08:30 PM
Celibidache conducted only one Mahler: Kindertotenlieder; his opinion of Mahler: "He didn't know when to stop."  :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on May 20, 2009, 09:07:23 AM
Last weekend, I watched the DVD of Mahler's 9th WSO Andrey Boreyko (Spring 2006) (not commercially available).

Incredible performance!  And most fascinating was watching the 20+ minutes of footage on the rehearsal of Symphony No. 9.  Very, very interesting, and incredibly insightful for a numbskull like me.  It was riveting to listen to Boreyko trying to draw exactly out of the various musicians what he was interpretting from the score.  Seeing that is making me want to attend every rehearsal of all the performances in the future I'd be seeing!  ;D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 20, 2009, 11:47:05 AM
Quote from: imperfection on May 19, 2009, 08:57:43 PM
Interesting...to me, the finale of the 3rd is the movement that practically begs for a Celibidachean interpretation: broad, majestic, spiritual; but above all, utterly beautiful and soulful.
I think we have the opposite taste in recordings!  :D

When I think about it, there may be an explanation to my preference. The harmonies are so simple in this movement that when played very slow (like every version I've heard until now), it just ends up sounding bland and boring.
Compared to, say, the Adagio of the 10th, which is much more harmonically complex, it needs to be extremely slow for me to work. So, I guess to explain what works for me when it comes to Mahler Adagios is kinda like a balance of two things- tempo and harmonic complexity.

It just sounds like all the lines sing instead of just create some type of atmosphere. The tempo seems nervous and like it's about to break up at times to very dramatic effect, and it does get very slow at key moments to convey the atmosphere. Other recordings sound like they have only atmosphere- so this recording just sounds more dynamic, since I hear both.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on May 23, 2009, 06:16:24 AM
Lost Mahler symphonies?
(From Egon Gartenberg Mahler: The Man and His Music

QuoteThe musicologist Dr. Paul Stefan noted that: "Mengelberg felt that the Mahler First Symphony exhibited such perfection that it had not been a first. His conjecture was borne out when he discovered four youthful symphonies of Mahler in the archives of Baroness Weber, the wife of Carl Maria von Weber's grandson, in Dresden. After examination, Mengelberg and [composer] Max von Schilling actually played the scores on the piano, being so fascinated with them that they took all night and did not finish until six in the morning." Nothing further has been heard of these symphonies, and if they existed (and we have no reason to doubt Mengelberg's account) they presumably were destroyed by the British bombing attack on Dresden in 1945.

Anybody know anything else about this?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 23, 2009, 08:52:07 AM
[On the above:]

Fascinating!

I've also wondered, at times, at the stylistic maturity of the first symphony, so it doesn't seem inconceivable to me that this might be the case. It is a hopeful side-effect of the digital era that such archives will not be as easy to destroy, in future times...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 23, 2009, 09:13:56 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 23, 2009, 08:52:07 AMI've also wondered, at times, at the stylistic maturity of the first symphony....
Well, apparently he starting working on this material while in his teens, so by the time of the final version in 1906, he'd been massaging it for 30 years.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 23, 2009, 11:33:32 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 23, 2009, 09:13:56 AM
Well, apparently he starting working on this material while in his teens, so by the time of the final version in 1906, he'd been massaging it for 30 years.

The highlighted would also be a very good point on its own, that I wasn't taking into consideration.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 24, 2009, 05:55:12 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 23, 2009, 08:52:07 AM
[On the above:]

Fascinating!

I've also wondered, at times, at the stylistic maturity of the first symphony...

Conducting great music, ALL. THE. TIME.?  ;D

And of course fiddling with it over many years and writing some fine music --with vocals and chamber-- prior to that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 24, 2009, 06:31:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 24, 2009, 05:55:12 AM
Conducting great music, ALL. THE. TIME.?  ;D

And of course fiddling with it over many years and writing some fine music --with vocals and chamber-- prior to that.
He began earning his living as a professional conductor at age twenty.  He was almost thirty when the first performance of the first version was given, at which time he did not call it a symphony, but a "Symphonic Poem in Two Parts."  Four years later, after substantial revisions, he premiered it as a programmatic symphony called Titan.  If you are not already familiar with it, Renfield, you might be interested in Das Klagende Lied, written when he was a student in Vienna.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 24, 2009, 12:33:38 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 24, 2009, 06:31:05 AM
If you are not already familiar with it, Renfield, you might be interested in Das Klagende Lied, written when he was a student in Vienna.

I am indeed very interested. Despite my admiration (bordering on adulation) for Mahler, I have so far avoided straying from his complete symphonic works to any consistent extent, with the exception of the Rückert and Kindertotenlieder.

But it might just be the time for me to hear Das Klagende Lied, at the very least... Thanks for the nudge. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 24, 2009, 12:45:02 PM
Quote from: Renfield on May 24, 2009, 12:33:38 PM
I am indeed very interested. Despite my admiration (bordering on adulation) for Mahler, I have so far avoided straying from his complete symphonic works to any consistent extent, with the exception of the Rückert and Kindertotenlieder.

But it might just be the time for me to hear Das Klagende Lied, at the very least... Thanks for the nudge. :)

May I -- out of pure and honest curiosity [no judgmental overtones intended, at all... though I admit to being a tad perplexed] -- ask why?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 24, 2009, 01:47:41 PM
Eugene, You asked me about a Mahler 9 by Judd.

Here is a link, though my copy was issued under the Regis label.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-9-Gustav/dp/B00004S2WE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1243201156&sr=1-2

It is a two disc set, the 9th with the Mahler Youth Orchestra and the Adagio from the 10th played by the European Community Youth Orch; Judd conducts both. The 9th is a surprisingly good version. There is not the gut wrenching of Barbirolli in the first movement, much more a serenity and turbulence, but not that angst I pick up from Barbirolli or Maderna, but there is plenty of contrast in there and excellent playing.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on May 25, 2009, 04:25:26 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 24, 2009, 12:33:38 PM
But it might just be the time for me to hear Das Klagende Lied, at the very least... Thanks for the nudge. :)

You may be in for a surprise.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 27, 2009, 04:01:22 PM
Mailman brought me the box set of the special Mahler edition Kerstmatinees, Bernard Haitink conducting the Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest, and I'll be in Mahler Emporium for a pleasant long time!

Today I watched the first disc, the 1st Symphony recorded in December 1977. It wasn't too long ago when I watched Haitink conduct the same symphony in 1994 with the Berlin Philharmonie, seventeen years apart, there definitely is a difference. It seemed to be much more intense, slower, with emphasis on all the beautiful introspective passages causing me to hold my breath, so as not to disturb the intrinsic structure.

I recall a rehearsal with Claudio Abbado and the Berliners, the hornists played in the last movement standing with their instruments raised, - as Mahler asked his players, - but Abbado told them while he conducts they may remain seated. Not so Haitink: They stood, everyone of them! Glorious music-making!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2009, 12:06:49 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on May 27, 2009, 04:01:22 PM
Mailman brought me the box set of the special Mahler edition Kerstmatinees.

Congrats. It's a lovely, very lovely (in Haitink-typical unspectacular manner). set.

Not something to rock your world, but something to cherish.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 28, 2009, 09:02:35 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on May 27, 2009, 04:01:22 PM
Mailman brought me the box set of the special Mahler edition Kerstmatinees, Bernard Haitink conducting the Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest, and I'll be in Mahler Emporium for a pleasant long time!

Today I watched the first disc, the 1st Symphony recorded in December 1977. It wasn't too long ago when I watched Haitink conduct the same symphony in 1994 with the Berlin Philharmonie, seventeen years apart, there definitely is a difference. It seemed to be much more intense, slower, with emphasis on all the beautiful introspective passages causing me to hold my breath, so as not to disturb the intrinsic structure.

I recall a rehearsal with Claudio Abbado and the Berliners, the hornists played in the last movement standing with their instruments raised, - as Mahler asked his players, - but Abbado told them while he conducts they may remain seated. Not so Haitink: They stood, everyone of them! Glorious music-making!

Lis, I'm envious.  I have the CD set, which I love, but I'd bet seeing them would be even more satisfying.  Where did you get it?  (My apologies if you've mentioned it already.) 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 28, 2009, 09:32:00 AM
No, Luv, I did not mention the source of this treasure before, it was one of our Dutch friends and it should be found here. You look, I look, and we see what we come up with. The seller is a company in Amsterdam - I think! - very friendly when I contacted him by email, and even though he was out of that set, he looked around and found a small supply some place else and sent me one, after I paid him by PayPal.

On disc 1 I watched yesterday, together with the Mahler No. 1, is also Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesellen with Benjamin Luxon. Wellllll, I have heard better Gesellen, but that's not Haitink's fault!  :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 28, 2009, 09:36:12 AM
Now that was easy, Bruce!  ;D
Thanks to the efficiency of my Outlook Express, who had automatically added the Dutch company's email to my addressbook, here it is:

Bergmann, Muziekhandel
E-mail Address(es):
  cd@bergmann.nl

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 28, 2009, 09:39:22 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on May 28, 2009, 09:36:12 AM
Now that was easy, Bruce!  ;D
Thanks to the efficiency of my Outlook Express, who had automatically added the Dutch company's email to my addressbook, here it is:

Bergmann, Muziekhandel
E-mail Address(es):
  cd@bergmann.nl

Ah, dank u wel, Lis!   :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 29, 2009, 10:51:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 28, 2009, 12:06:49 AM

Not something to rock your world, but something to cherish.

Then please, Jens, who would rock my world? Eh em, no conductors departed the world, RIP. Tell me about live ones, the conductors and orchestras rocking your world when conducting Mahler?  ???

I watched Mahler's 3rd yesterday. What a production! Audience packed like sardines; excellent camera work, nice touch with the trumpeter standing in the hallway for his solos effectively using the super acoustic, and Haitink much more agitated in 1983 than in recent performances. That one is a keeper and cherished very, very much!  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 11:01:22 AM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on May 29, 2009, 10:51:46 AM
Then please, Jens, who would rock my world? Eh em, no conductors departed the world, RIP. Tell me about live ones, the conductors and orchestras rocking your world when conducting Mahler?  ???

I watched Mahler's 3rd yesterday. What a production! Audience packed like sardines; excellent camera work, nice touch with the trumpeter standing in the hallway for his solos effectively using the super acoustic, and Haitink much more agitated in 1983 than in recent performances. That one is a keeper and cherished very, very much!  ;)

Are we talking live?

Mahler that recently grabbed me by my.... [no, calm down now: I meant] LAPELS, was conducted by Jurowski. (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=539 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=539))

Stylistically Ivan Fischer is probably closer to Haitink than he is to being a gritty lapel-grabber, but his Mahler can have the same effect.

In any case, it wasn't meant disparagingly in any way shape or form toward Haitink. He'd still be among the first to whose Mahler concerts I'd run. (Ditto MTT, Chailly!!, probably Bychkov...
His recent 4th with the RCO (Haitink's, that is) was stupendous and went straight to the top of my (extensive, more than I should like to admit) list (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html).

My radio station will probably make one of this year's months "Mahler Month" (which is more gutsy for a public classical radio station than it would seem to us Mahler-lovers), so I'll have a chance to finally publish my Mahler-recording articles that I've been writing, amending, and hording for the last four years. The first 3rd of just the introduction has already made it unto the website (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=518).) Some more here: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=168 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=168), some here (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/08/mahler-reviews-on-ionarts.html).

More than you bargained for?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 29, 2009, 06:27:47 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 11:01:22 AM
l=http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/08/mahler-reviews-on-ionarts.html]here[/url].

More than you bargained for?  ;D

Definitely not! I always look forward to your posts, the more the merrier; especially this one because you mentioned one of my favourite, young, vibrant and intelligent conductors: Vladimir Jurowski. It was a few years ago, 2? 3? when I was watching a DVD of Die Fledermaus, a Glyndebourne production, and onto the podium stepped  this young, stunningly good looking male specimen - yes, grabbing me by  ::)  ::)  ::) - , fearing his looks being the only worthwhile attribute. Surprise! This hunk is an awesome conductor! I think it was his first appearance at Glyndebourne and from there on he just kept on going up and up and up. I didn't know he did a Mahler! Thank you for the link!  :-*

I was aware you are connected to WETA, for some reason I never tried to add this NPR station to my Favourites. Wonder if they are one of the rare NPR stations broadcasting the Saturday Met operas. Shall check on that, because my NWPR refuses to broadcast anything on a Saturday morning except that guy from Lake Woebegone - to be repeated the following Sunday afternoon. ::)

Have you listened to the Gergiev Mahler No. 8? And comment?

Lis

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 29, 2009, 06:31:07 PM
Lis, for Met opera broadcasts tune to KXPR, Captal Public Radio in Sacramento. http://www.capradio.org/programs/classicalmusic/ (http://www.capradio.org/programs/classicalmusic/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 29, 2009, 06:34:08 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 11:01:22 AM
Are we talking live?


Sorry, forgot: No, we are not talking live. I have to drive three hours and over two mountain passes to get to Seattle, the nearest chance for experiencing anything, opera and concert, LIVE  :'(

That's why I eliminated the guest room and now have a nice music room!   ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 29, 2009, 06:36:49 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 29, 2009, 06:31:07 PM
Lis, for Met opera broadcasts tune to KXPR, Captal Public Radio in Sacramento. http://www.capradio.org/programs/classicalmusic/ (http://www.capradio.org/programs/classicalmusic/)

Thank you, Luv! It's now listed on my Favourites.  :-*
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 29, 2009, 06:39:50 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on May 29, 2009, 06:36:49 PM
Thank you, Luv! It's now listed on my Favourites.  :-*
Friday nights are also given over to opera broadcasts, from recordings.  Tonight is some kind of listener favorite call-in show, but usually Sean plays a complete opera recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 10:40:56 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 29, 2009, 06:31:07 PM
Lis, for Met opera broadcasts tune to KXPR, Captal Public Radio in Sacramento. http://www.capradio.org/programs/classicalmusic/ (http://www.capradio.org/programs/classicalmusic/)

No, no no. Listen to WETA for your MET broadcasts!  ;D

WETA is also working on a dedicated Opera/Voice internet channel which might be of interest to you, once it is up. (This was a big success with listeners when the station that broadcast classical in DC before WETA re-assumed its classical responsibilities, but as everything else in life, it has to be financed, first... so it took and will take a while to get back up and running.)

I've heard most of the Mahler with Gergiev on CD, but not the 8th. So far I've liked absolutely nothing in that series... Disappointing, as I had particularly high hopes of a ravishing 6th, unwashed and gritty... and then it was another sight-reading effort of the LSO. Argh. Maddening orchestra. And maddeningly inconsistent conductor.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 05:41:27 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 10:40:56 PM
I've heard most of the Mahler with Gergiev on CD, but not the 8th. So far I've liked absolutely nothing in that series...
Of course it's a case of contempt prior to investigation, but I've not heard any of Gergiev's Mahler, thinking the two go together like lobsters and motor oil.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 30, 2009, 06:03:39 AM
I shouldn't, but I say it anyhow: Gergiev and Mahler? Gergiev and cowbells, cuckoos, sunrise and alpine peaks have never met and never will!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 06:08:38 AM
(* sigh *) I'm feelin' the love here  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 30, 2009, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 05:41:27 AM
I've not heard any of Gergiev's Mahler, thinking the two go together like lobsters and motor oil.

;D :D ;D 8)  :-*

Voted the post of the year!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on May 30, 2009, 09:51:58 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 05:41:27 AM
Of course it's a case of contempt prior to investigation, but I've not heard any of Gergiev's Mahler, thinking the two go together like lobsters and motor oil.

Or labdanum and biscotti?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on May 30, 2009, 09:58:44 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 05:41:27 AM
Of course it's a case of contempt prior to investigation, but I've not heard any of Gergiev's Mahler, thinking the two go together like lobsters and motor oil.

:'( There goes my BBQ plans for tonight.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 30, 2009, 10:00:49 AM
Voted running nose to nose with crustaceans and vehicle lubricant!  ;D  ;D  ;D

Isn't anybody out there with an appetising remark about this 8th?  ???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 30, 2009, 10:03:17 AM
I wish I could weigh in, but I haven't heard any of Gergiev's Mahler series yet.  Hope to remedy soon. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 30, 2009, 10:19:55 AM
Oh Bruce, Luv, never mind hearing or watching any of the Gergiev Mahler's, just let us hear/read your expert caveling!  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 30, 2009, 10:22:43 AM
 ;D

I did hear Gergiev and the Kirov do the "Resurrection" a few years ago, and liked it.  The playing was sometimes a little on the scrappy side, but Gergiev definitely "got" the emotional core of the piece.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 30, 2009, 10:33:12 AM
Quote from: bhodges on May 30, 2009, 10:22:43 AM
I did hear Gergiev and the Kirov do the "Resurrection" a few years ago, and liked it.  The playing was sometimes a little on the scrappy side, but Gergiev definitely "got" the emotional core of the piece.
I'd happily hear Gergiev and the Kirov do almost anything--even Debussy!  But I'm not convinced that the LSO really has the requisite cojones for Mahler (apologies to MTT & Jansons, among others  :-\ ).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 30, 2009, 01:01:31 PM
My name is Eugene, and I like Gergiev's Mahler. >:D

Or rather, you could say I appreciate what Gergiev is doing with it. I would never rank Gergiev above the 'usual suspects', but he certainly has an opinion on the pieces (already anathema to some, understandably), and does not hesitate in arguing cohesively for it.

It is certainly a very skewed and somewhat browbeating opinion, but still argued for a) consistently, and b) with impressive musical sensitivity (I'd say), compared to consistent-but-bland Solti, for example. Gergiev's 7th is a good case in point: it tramples over a number of nuances in the score, but it's like a proof: it seems to declare "I will show X and Y", and proceeds to do so.

Again, I am not claiming this sort of 'teleological', ends-before-means Mahler should be to everyone's taste, but I have a point of being likely to accept a position cogently and consistently argued for, and musical opinions are no different. :)


Rewinding the thread slightly, due to my not having been available to respond earlier:


The reason I have heard little Mahler beyond his complete symphonic works (note: not the integral symphonic works, I mean his symphonic works that are complete - that is, not the 10th symphony) is down to how I explore symphonic repertory.

Perhaps part of why I like Mahler so much is that I share his predilection for symphonic worlds, vs. symphonic 'exercises'. I am thus inclined to view an entire symphonic oeuvre as a system, the constituents of which (through their being based on their being grouped by the composer himself into one theme, "symphonies") being the individual works that I can thus contextualise and process, or if you will 'understand' within the context of each other.

But once I'm happy with having a general idea of what a specific symphonic oeuvre is (in the loosest possible sense) 'about', I am then equally happy to turn my attention to the works peripheral to it (as I see them).


Also, many thanks again for the Judd recommendation, Mike! I've already added it to my shortlist, and am highly interested in comparing it to the Walter (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Walter-Conducts-Mahler-Gustav/dp/B00005B0HM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1243717084&sr=1-1) I had mentioned, based on what I gather from your description.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: bhodges on May 30, 2009, 10:22:43 AM
I did hear Gergiev and the Kirov do the "Resurrection" a few years ago, and liked it.  The playing was sometimes a little on the scrappy side, but Gergiev definitely "got" the emotional core of the piece.

Scrappy playing and Gergiev go together quite well, Bruce  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 30, 2009, 02:41:26 PM
Let me just add, if it wasn't clear, that Gergiev seems to clearly impose a rationale to each Mahler symphony, but this is itself a contestable point. I am not saying they necessarily have an 'end' that Gergiev 'finds'! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on May 30, 2009, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 11:01:22 AM
...
His recent 4th with the RCO (Haitink's, that is) was stupendous and went straight to the top of my (extensive, more than I should like to admit) list (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html).

I believe I mentioned this before: I have that Haitink/ Schäfer Mahler 4th and it's nice but IMO Haitink first take with Elly Ameling (with the RCO in 1967) still holds firmly 1st place.

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 30, 2009, 03:39:50 PM
Quote from: Que on May 30, 2009, 03:16:47 PM
I believe I mentioned this before: I have that Haitink/ Schäfer Mahler 4th and it's nice but IMO Haitink first take with Elly Ameling (with the RCO in 1967) still holds firmly 1st place.

Q

That's the recording from the commonly-available box set, is it not? I'm more and more tempted to invest in it, at some point... Yet I do have the 3rd already, and might be able to complement it with the 9th and Das Lied from the Philips twofer.

And I've heard that the 1st is not his best account. So are the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th worth going the extra mile?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on May 30, 2009, 03:53:08 PM
Quote from: Renfield on May 30, 2009, 03:39:50 PM
That's the recording from the commonly-available box set, is it not? I'm more and more tempted to invest in it, at some point... Yet I do have the 3rd already, and might be able to complement it with the 9th and Das Lied from the Philips twofer.

And I've heard that the 1st is not his best account. So are the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th worth going the extra mile?

On the 4th, I dare not say - I have separate issues and Haitink redid the 4th later with Roberta Alexander (definitely not recommendable). I believe the exact contents of the box have been discussed on this thread before. As for the rest: the 6th is a dud, no comment on the 8th (never "got" it ::)) But the rest is very nice - the 2nd, 7th and 9th especially.

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 30, 2009, 04:15:55 PM
Quote from: Que on May 30, 2009, 03:53:08 PMI believe the exact contents of the box have been discussed on this thread before.

Indeed, I should have checked. And after a brief look I had, it does appear to be the Ameling version in the box set. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Diletante on May 31, 2009, 09:37:03 AM
Oh my, I'm listening to Das Lied von der Erde for the first time right now (Sinopoli's cycle) and I'm loving it! Which is weird, because all the other symphonies I know (1 through 6) took me a few listens to like. But so far Das Lied is so beautiful, melodic and instantly likeable! I wonder why no one recommends Mahler beginners to start with Das Lied von der Erde?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on May 31, 2009, 09:57:25 AM
Any insights on Eschenbach's Mahler?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 31, 2009, 10:32:16 AM
Quote from: tanuki on May 31, 2009, 09:37:03 AM
Oh my, I'm listening to Das Lied von der Erde for the first time right now (Sinopoli's cycle) and I'm loving it! Which is weird, because all the other symphonies I know (1 through 6) took me a few listen to like. But so far Das Lied is so beautiful, melodic and instantly likeable! I wonder why no one recommends Mahler beginners to start with Das Lied von der Erde?

Beginning Mahler with a song cycle is a good idea. Maybe some people think the last song of Das Lied is a little tough.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 31, 2009, 11:43:52 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 31, 2009, 09:57:25 AM
Any insights on Eschenbach's Mahler?

Both in concert  (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/12/philadelphia-orchestra-nadia-salerno.html) and more so, still, on disc (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/01/best-recordings-of-2006.html) (excellent 6th) did he positively surprise me. Quite good, indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2009, 12:21:30 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 31, 2009, 09:57:25 AM
Any insights on Eschenbach's Mahler?

You can download his eighth here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.msg245328.html#msg245328).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bunny on May 31, 2009, 02:29:47 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 31, 2009, 09:57:25 AM
Any insights on Eschenbach's Mahler?

Eschenbach's Mahler so far is a mixed bag.  He has a predilection for women with very light vocal timbres so that affects his choice of soloists in the song driven symphonies.  His recording of the 6th is as menacing and crushing as anyone would wish from a 6th.  I know he's got a recording with the Houston Symphony of the Mahler 1st, but I haven't heard that.

I have his recordings of the 6th which as I said before, is excellent, and the 2nd which is slightly less so.  I have also heard him conduct the Philadelphia in the 4th and the 2nd at Carnegie Hall, with mixed results.  The 4th was not an optimal performance. Characterized by ragged play all over the place, it was also cursed with a singer, Marisol Montalves, who just didn't have a voice big enough to fill the hall.  For those critics who didn't like the way Dorothea Röschmann looked on stage, I must say that Montalves looked like the beauty pageant winner she is.  However when you go to a Mahler concert, you aren't there to judge an evening gown competition.  In contrast to the less well dressed Röschmann, Montalves' (I presume light, silvery,) voice was largely inaudible -- a killer for the finale.  

The 2nd was much better, and the chorus sang brilliantly to a rousing finale -- they were the best thing about the concert.  The only fault I can think of is that for some reason the earlier movements didn't generate quite as much emotion and excitement. From the Urlicht through to the finale, however, it was indeed terrific.  The soloists were the same, I believe as in the recording.  Their voices while to my ears a bit too light for Mahler (especially the mezzo whom I did not like as much as the soprano),  were easily heard, and not drowned out by the orchestra as Montalves was to be later in the season.  They also had all of the necessary range, if not heft for the work.  A woman sitting to the side of us went through a pack of Kleenex as the tears streamed down from the Urlicht through the finale, so you will know that all of the right emotional buttons were being pressed. 

The symphony as a whole was very satisfying.  It was aces and spades above Boulez's cold and flat Mahler 2nd which was barely redeemed by excellent vocal performances. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on June 01, 2009, 03:44:00 PM
December 25th, 1987, Concertgebouw Amsterdam, the last strains of Gustav Mahler's 9th Symphony are floating through the packed house, Mahler's well-known portrait is being projected onto the famous organ, Maestro Bernard Haitink raises both arms to conduct the last notes of the long fading coda, ..."he opens his right hand and lets the baton clatter to the floor; his last gesture of control at his final Christmas matinee. This was his penultimate concert as Chief Conductor in Amsterdam with only his farewell performance of Mahler's 8th to follow." [from Kasper Jansen, Music Editor, NRC Handelsblad.]

Then the ovation erupts, and I am breathing again, having spent the afternoon with the DVD of this historical performance.

Thank you, my Dutch friends, who helped me purchase the Philips set.  :-*
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 01, 2009, 04:05:22 PM
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on June 01, 2009, 03:44:00 PM
December 25th, 1987, Concertgebouw Amsterdam, the last strains of Gustav Mahler's 9th Symphony are floating through the packed house, Mahler's well-known portrait is being projected onto the famous organ, Maestro Bernard Haitink raises both arms to conduct the last notes of the long fading coda, he opens his right hand and lets the baton clatter to the floor; his last gesture of control at his final Christmas matinee. This was his penultimate cancert as Chief Conductor in Amsterdam with only his farewell performance of Mahler's 8th to follow. [from Kasper Jansen, Music Editor, NRC Handelsblad.]

Then the ovation erupts, and I am breathing again, having spent the afternoon with the DVD of this historical performance.

Thank you, my Dutch friends, who helped me purchase the Philips set.  :-*

That date is 3 days before I was born. Maybe I should listen to Haitink's Mahler 9...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on June 01, 2009, 04:12:55 PM
Yes, that one, and the 7th, my favourite. Goodgod, that man is totally involved in his Mahler, and so are his musicians!  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 01, 2009, 06:29:50 PM
For many Haitink's Mahler is the Word. Simply because he lets this complex music speak for itself and breathe. Of course, having the COA at his disposal (and his lifelong association with it) is part and parcel of the magic. My first association with symphonies 1, 2, 5, 7, 8 and 9 was though his Philips recordings. They not only made a deep impression, but helped expose the errors and exaggerations of 80% of the other recordings I heard afterwards.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Senta on June 02, 2009, 01:27:51 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on May 31, 2009, 09:57:25 AM
Any insights on Eschenbach's Mahler?

Big fan here. His Mahler has come up several times in earlier pages this thread. From what I understand he seems to be stronger in some of the symphonies than others - does anyone have any experience of him #3, 7, or 10? Would love to hear a 7th from him because he is particularly awesome for in the 5th and 6th.

The Ondine Philly recording of the 6th is excellent, very musical, wonderful playing/recording and packs quite a wallop indeed.

Here is a great video too on YouTube (musically might be even better! and at least as good) with Orch de Paris. Somewhere I have links for those I think.

I. (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c5SLbRkTxg), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc9anRxIE9s), 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c5SLbRkTxg))
II. Scherzo (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWU-UKUdw8M), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtngTvNnORs))
III. Andante (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zwJ1BljEuE), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydextj1GCS8))
IV. (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee3xFRCsFCc), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXsAXclRDc0), 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGKRgFuOrEs), 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QheCUBmKD5s))

The 8th - links to download the vid above - here it is on YouTube as well, again w/ Orch de Paris. For some reason, this one isn't as successful to me - he lets the huge arc of the thing meander and wander at times (always hard with the 8th!)

Part I (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP_nnMerCoY), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs0Nltc3vX8), 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0abSbgp7eR0))
Part II (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULfhIl9pdVY), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z15GUjJuK5k), 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hkme6Fqzxs), 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9jyT1EVu-Q), 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=attz2_DREiM), 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGFzeYu9E5w), 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjiVrc0QTRw))

The 1st - the recording with Houston is from early 90s on Koch and is certainly very good. Spirited playing and interpretation, a well-done live recording worth a hearing.

The 2nd, 3rd, 4th have radio broadcasts floating around either with NDR, Orch de Paris, maybe 2nd w Philly I haven't checked them out yet due to time and some subdued reviews.

The 9th - there was a recording I was impressed with, from radio with the NDR SO in 1996, great performance.
Here is a link:
http://rapidshare.com/files/239895879/M9EschenbachNDRSO1996.rar

Okay - now the 5th. As said, the 5th and 6th are some of his strongest. It is such a pity he never recorded the 5th with Philadelphia, it might've been a new favorite based on their 6th, and on the fact that his general interpretation for me is close to ideal.

There is a great, great video (in HD!) to watch of them in Japan in 2005:

1st mvmt (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdjbkbnkAWk), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95BL0xk8hY))
2nd mvmt (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDUBBfH1gLs), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-penLdW3SA))
3rd mvmt (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UpDi_c6F8g), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3mtWdBdVqk))
4th mvmt (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh2czY4VrnY), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY8N6g1F44s))
5th mvmt (1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5y2DVAxduI), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7iBuiOS9Gc))

The audio of that is here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/239827495/M5EschenbachPhilly2005Japan.rar

Now - there is an extremely interesting and fantastic recording of his 5th with Houston on tour in Vienna in 1992. This one is fascinating interpretively and as such draws me back to it again and again, plus the playing just catches fire by the 2nd mvmt and they really smoke on through to the end.

Eschenbach goes further than he should with many, many things in that performance, though they follow him perfectly and it certainly makes you think of the music in a different way. I honestly can't say that it doesn't work on some level - it is so musical and committed throughout. There are sections in the 2nd mvmt where he just pulls time like taffy, and no more so than in the Adagietto which is very broad and hangs in the air as a misty timeless haze, it is really unique and special. The Philly recording is far less radical, more mellow and straightforward, but he still makes some of the same points.

Here is the Houston recording, was only on a private subscriber CD:
http://rapidshare.com/files/239815244/M5EschenbachHouston1992Vienna.rar

If you get a chance to stumble on some of their other 90s live recordings too, go for it, the awesome Prokofiev 5, the Bruckner 6 on Koch - but skip the DSCH 5.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on June 02, 2009, 08:25:00 AM
A lot of illuminating answers so far, thank you all!  8)
I'm going to begin with the Sixth on Ondine as well as the other online resources so far specified.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 06, 2009, 05:57:13 AM
Just finished watching the Mahler movie.
It was enjoyable, given the subject, though I'm not a big fan of that type of style. The guy looked just like Mahler (especially in the profile).
Overall, though, his life doesn't seem that interesting- probably more exciting would be movies of Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Schoenberg, etc. though I have no idea if there are any movies of them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 06, 2009, 06:37:20 AM
Anyone can comment on the 1956 Mitropoulos 3rd?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on June 06, 2009, 06:50:14 AM
A question on the use of cowbells in the 6th symphony. It's not a musical instrument per se, but is it specified in the score "how" they should be played, or can the cowbell-ist just make soft sounds anyway he or she (or more likely - the conductor) wants to create a pastoral atmosphere?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on June 06, 2009, 08:13:17 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 06, 2009, 06:37:20 AM
Anyone can comment on the 1956 Mitropoulos 3rd?

Very fast and cut, I'm told. Havent' heard it myself.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 06, 2009, 09:05:24 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 06, 2009, 06:37:20 AM
Anyone can comment on the 1956 Mitropoulos 3rd?

Love Mitrop. in general and in Mahler in particular... but avoid this one. In English and heavily cut and bad sound. Only for those who NEED to have every Mitrop. Mahler recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on June 06, 2009, 10:22:15 AM
Quote from: opus67 on June 06, 2009, 06:50:14 AM
A question on the use of cowbells in the 6th symphony. It's not a musical instrument per se, but is it specified in the score "how" they should be played, or can the cowbell-ist just make soft sounds anyway he or she (or more likely - the conductor) wants to create a pastoral atmosphere?


I think it is specified in the score....I'd actually be shocked if it wasn't.  Navneeth, from hearing and seeing this symphony performed live, the percussionist is taking great care with these cowbells, just at times hardly touching them, gliding over the set gently.  Most of the time it is very faint and subtle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on June 06, 2009, 10:27:20 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 06, 2009, 10:22:15 AM
I think it is specified in the score....I'd actually be shocked if it wasn't.  Navneeth, from hearing and seeing this symphony performed live, the percussionist is taking great care with these cowbells, just at times hardly touching them, gliding over the set gently.  Most of the time it is very faint and subtle.

Thanks, Ray. Reply much appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on June 06, 2009, 10:30:15 AM
Quote from: opus67 on June 06, 2009, 10:27:20 AM
Thanks, Ray. Reply much appreciated. :)

As for the hammer blows.......nothing subtle about them.  Whack the large wooden mallet with all the force your body can project.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on June 06, 2009, 10:36:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/UwljE3HsfSM

The cowbell-ists are not cool enough to warrant a YouTube video.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 03:51:52 AM
Thanks for the Mitropoulos 3rd comments guys!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MDL on June 14, 2009, 03:27:55 AM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 06, 2009, 05:57:13 AM
Just finished watching the Mahler movie.
It was enjoyable, given the subject, though I'm not a big fan of that type of style. The guy looked just like Mahler (especially in the profile).

Do you mean Ken Russell's Mahler, with Robert Powell? That's a quirky little film and no mistake. Some bits I love, other bits I watch through my fingers, the conversion scene especially; Mahler as one of the Groucho brothers, then as Stan Laurel?! Ken, what were you thinking?!

Apologies if you're referring to some other Mahler doc/film, by the way.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 14, 2009, 04:32:59 AM
I saw -- or is it "heard"? -- the Pittsburgh Symphony perform the M2 on Friday night. There were at least a points where one of the percussionists used a hammer. How come no big deal is made of this the way it is in the M6?

It was a splendid performance, especially the last two movements.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 14, 2009, 04:47:41 AM
I don't ever recall seeing a hammer used. Here is the list of percussion instruments written into the score:

Percussion
(Requires total of seven players)

Timpani (2 players and 8 timpani, with a third player in the last movement using two of the second timpanist's drums)
Several Snare Drums
Bass Drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Glockenspiel
3 deep, untuned steel rods or bells
Rute, or "switch", to be played on the shell of the bass drum
2 Tam-tams (high and low)
Offstage Percussion in Movement 5:
Bass drum with cymbals attached (played by the same percussionist), Triangle, Timpani

Small hammers may be used for the bells. But if you mean a large mallet, I have no idea what it could have been used for.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 14, 2009, 05:09:27 AM
Quote from: MDL on June 14, 2009, 03:27:55 AM
Do you mean Ken Russell's Mahler, with Robert Powell? That's a quirky little film and no mistake. Some bits I love, other bits I watch through my fingers, the conversion scene especially; Mahler as one of the Groucho brothers, then as Stan Laurel?! Ken, what were you thinking?!

Apologies if you're referring to some other Mahler doc/film, by the way.



Yep, that's the one. It was somewhat amusing- "I'm going to live forever!"  :D

What does everyone think of Tennstedt's 6th? That's definitely my favorite now- not to mention, the most intense recording I know of.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 14, 2009, 06:25:57 AM
Quote from: knight on June 14, 2009, 04:47:41 AM
I don't ever recall seeing a hammer used. Here is the list of percussion instruments written into the score:

Percussion
(Requires total of seven players)

Timpani (2 players and 8 timpani, with a third player in the last movement using two of the second timpanist's drums)
Several Snare Drums
Bass Drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Glockenspiel
3 deep, untuned steel rods or bells
Rute, or "switch", to be played on the shell of the bass drum
2 Tam-tams (high and low)
Offstage Percussion in Movement 5:
Bass drum with cymbals attached (played by the same percussionist), Triangle, Timpani

Small hammers may be used for the bells. But if you mean a large mallet, I have no idea what it could have been used for.

Mike
Thanks, Mike. I was sitting in the orchestra and the stage was truly packed, so I couldn't see many of the instruments besides the strings. Consequently, I'm not sure exactly what was being hit by the thing I thought was a hammer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 14, 2009, 08:25:12 AM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 14, 2009, 05:09:27 AM
Yep, that's the one. It was somewhat amusing- "I'm going to live forever!"  :D

What does everyone think of Tennstedt's 6th? That's definitely my favorite now- not to mention, the most intense recording I know of.

Which one? There's a new one that's just come out that I'm chomping at the bit to hear, but the studio-recorded older one (there's a second live version, as well) didn't register as strongly as, say, his 5th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 14, 2009, 07:15:56 PM
It's the one from his complete box set. True, the brass has quite a few small blunders, but at times, they sound like they are going to come out of your speakers and explode! I've never had the Finale stuck in my head so much and enjoyed it so much as I have recently, all because of that recording. The same could go with the finale of the 3rd.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 16, 2009, 07:14:14 AM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 14, 2009, 07:15:56 PM
It's the one from his complete box set. True, the brass has quite a few small blunders, but at times, they sound like they are going to come out of your speakers and explode! I've never had the Finale stuck in my head so much and enjoyed it so much as I have recently, all because of that recording. The same could go with the finale of the 3rd.

Comparing box sets, after Bernstein's CBS Mahler, I like Tennstedt.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on June 16, 2009, 09:05:23 AM
When reading reviews and articles on Tennstedt's Mahler recordings as they were released, one would believe that all agreed (at least in Gramophone Land) that he was the Greatest Mahler Interpretor Ever.  Now, it seems to me as if his Mahler is not often considered too seriously.  What happend?  Or am I just missing something or misunderstanding? 

Personally, I am a huge fan of Tennstedt's studio cycle.  I have not compared it symphony for symphony to any other, but I do know that my first introduction to Mahler came through Bernstein's CBS recordings and I believed I did not like the composer at all for quite a while.  I do know that many have described Tennstedt's live performances as being far superior to his studio recordings, but I have yet to hear any of them.  The studio recordings, however, seem just fine to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on June 16, 2009, 02:30:52 PM
New blog...

http://www.universaledition.com/mahler/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on June 16, 2009, 02:31:11 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 14, 2009, 07:15:56 PM
It's the one from his complete box set. True, the brass has quite a few small blunders, but at times, they sound like they are going to come out of your speakers and explode! I've never had the Finale stuck in my head so much and enjoyed it so much as I have recently, all because of that recording. The same could go with the finale of the 3rd.

Greg, how is the timing for the finale of the 3rd? I am still searching for a grand, majestic, broad, truly Sehr langsam closing movement to that epic symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on June 16, 2009, 02:53:15 PM
Especially good interview...many thoughts I have tried to express myself, but not nearly as eloquently and efficiently as Barenboim.
http://www.universaledition.com/mahler/daniel-barenboim-on-gustav-mahler/#more-312

QuoteNo, rather the opposite. I remember many concerts that made me dislike it even more, because I found, in the Mahler concerts I had heard, two extremes. One was sort of exaggeratedly emotional, in the sense that the text was used as an excuse for self-expression on the part of the conductor, sometimes at a very high level. Others withdrew from any kind of emotional content, making it rather dry.

I was 'allergic' to what I found at that time to be artificialities in the music.

I also disliked – I'm being very negative on purpose – the fact that Mahler was, and still is, the only composer who is discussed mostly in non-musical terms. Whenever somebody says, "I don't like Mahler", or "I love Mahler", of course, it's psychoanalysis – Sigmund Freud and all these things. And I think this is terrible. You would never think or talk about Beethoven like that, about the deafness or whatever else it may be, or about Chopin's tuberculosis. In other words, the biography of the composer, and the musical diary which he writes – all great composers' works are musical diaries – are not really related. Beethoven wrote some of the most positive music at a time of complete distress, and vice versa.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 16, 2009, 03:04:47 PM
Quote from: imperfection on June 16, 2009, 02:31:11 PM
Greg, how is the timing for the finale of the 3rd? I am still searching for a grand, majestic, broad, truly Sehr langsam closing movement to that epic symphony.
Oh, then you won't like Tennstedt then. Timing is 20:38. The reason why I fell in love with his interpretation is because it's the opposite of how you describe!  ;D It's nervous, agitated, and very powerful.
Maybe you should try Chailly? His 3rd is my favorite, but for that last movement, I'd choose Tennstedt without thinking twice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on June 16, 2009, 05:14:06 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 16, 2009, 03:04:47 PM
Oh, then you won't like Tennstedt then. Timing is 20:38. The reason why I fell in love with his interpretation is because it's the opposite of how you describe!  ;D It's nervous, agitated, and very powerful.
Maybe you should try Chailly? His 3rd is my favorite, but for that last movement, I'd choose Tennstedt without thinking twice.

Oh wow  ;D Thanks for letting me know. I have yet to hear the finale being stretched beyond 26 minutes (Bernstein, DG)...and I thought Bernstein wasn't broad, grandiose, Celibidachean enough... 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 21, 2009, 08:13:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ytKytiaYw

:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 21, 2009, 08:55:15 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 21, 2009, 08:13:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ytKytiaYw

:)
I listened to the first few minutes...... the clips for the Mahler movie where also Haitink, I guess....
i get the impression that his Mahler is lifeless, so I ended up deciding not to check out his symphony cycle.
I'm working on getting Bertini's...... have no idea what to expect there, all i hear is "classical approach" as a description... doesn't sound too promising, but why not, huh?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 21, 2009, 09:19:31 PM
Haitink's Mahler isn't lifeless: at worst, it's clinical. But very deliberately so, it's no auto-pilot.

That having been said, I haven't heard a 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th from him, so I am far from the most authoritative source. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2009, 04:56:40 AM
A new Mahler Cycle in planning:

QuoteMarkus Stenz and the Gürzenich-Orchestra are recording a Mahler cycle on SACD on the label OehmsClassics. This will include the song cycle "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" with Christiane Oelze (soprano) and Michael Volle (baritone). The first release of this cycle will be Mahler's Symphony No. 5 in August 2009. The other symphonies will be released individually until the completion of the cycle in 2012.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 22, 2009, 05:05:39 AM
The final issue in the MTT/SFS Mahler cycle will be released in August, bundling the adagio from the 10th together with the 8th:

Erin Wall, soprano
Elza van den Heever, soprano
Laura Claycomb, soprano
Katarina Karnéus, mezzo-soprano
Yvonne Naef, mezzo-soprano
Anthony Dean Griffey, tenor
Quinn Kelsey, baritone
James Morris, bass-baritone

San Francisco Symphony Chorus Ragnar Bohlin, director
Pacific Boychoir Kevin Fox, director
San Francisco Girls Chorus Susan McMane, director
Recorded live at Davies Symphony Hall, San Francisco
Symphony No. 8 November 19-23, 2008
Adagio from Symphony No. 10 April 6-8, 2006
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 22, 2009, 05:13:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2009, 04:56:40 AM
A new Mahler Cycle in planning:

Nice! I like to hear it whenever a new cycle comes out. Never heard of this conductor, though...


Quote from: Renfield on June 21, 2009, 09:19:31 PM
Haitink's Mahler isn't lifeless: at worst, it's clinical. But very deliberately so, it's no auto-pilot.

That having been said, I haven't heard a 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th from him, so I am far from the most authoritative source. ;)
Well, I'll give him one thing- in the clips I've heard, you can hear everything. I hear all the instruments, but no emotion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 22, 2009, 05:17:38 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2009, 04:56:40 AM
A new Mahler Cycle in planning:


YES! :D

I literally said 'YES' out loud, just now. I've heard orchestra and conductor in combination live on the 6th, and what a concert that was!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 22, 2009, 05:25:47 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 22, 2009, 05:17:38 AM
YES! :D

I literally said 'YES' out loud, just now. I've heard orchestra and conductor in combination live on the 6th, and what a concert that was!
If you're that enthusiastic about it, I think I will be, too!  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 22, 2009, 07:45:50 AM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 21, 2009, 08:55:15 PM
I listened to the first few minutes...... the clips for the Mahler movie where also Haitink, I guess....
i get the impression that his Mahler is lifeless, so I ended up deciding not to check out his symphony cycle.

Your impression is mistaken. This is an approach to Mahler that requires a little more patience. Don't except it to grab you by the throat like Solti. Haitink's Mahler buids very gradually but becomes ever more inevitable and gut wrenching as it nears its climax.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 22, 2009, 01:16:08 PM
Well, I'll give him a shot eventually to see what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2009, 01:33:48 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 22, 2009, 01:16:08 PM
Well, I'll give him a shot eventually to see what you're talking about.

If and when you do: Stay away from his 8th (turned me off Haitink's Mahler--unjustly, except in this case--for YEARS), indulge in his latest Fourth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=449)!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 22, 2009, 01:38:44 PM
Oh, I will. Nice blog, btw.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: imperfection on June 22, 2009, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 21, 2009, 08:55:15 PM
I listened to the first few minutes...... the clips for the Mahler movie where also Haitink, I guess....
i get the impression that his Mahler is lifeless, so I ended up deciding not to check out his symphony cycle.
I'm working on getting Bertini's...... have no idea what to expect there, all i hear is "classical approach" as a description... doesn't sound too promising, but why not, huh?

"Lifeless" is definitely not an adjective I would ever imagine of applying to Haitink's Mahler, at least to the BPO performances of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 7th I have watched on these excellent sounding DVDs they made:

(http://classicalcdreview.com/DVDVIDEO292.jpg) (http://www.iclassics.com/images/local/300/64657E.jpg)

(http://www.universalmusicclassical.com/images/local/300/64658E.jpg)





In fact, I rank these first 3 symphonies among the best I have ever heard (and seen, in this case). The picture and sound quality of these DVDs are mind-blowingly awesome, with a soundstage as deep and impactful as Chailly's 5th on Decca...and that's saying a lot. Any self-respecting Mahlerite ought to give these DVDs an audition, in my opinion. If you want me to go more in-depth and give specifics of the spectacular performances or the recorded sound, let me know, I'll be more than happy to let more people know about this excellent, but perhaps under noticed series.

P.S. Note that all the above performances have nothing to do with the better known Christmas Mahler concerts series (also on DVD) that Haitink had also done. Those ones were done with the Royal Concertgebouw, and these ones were done with the BPO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 23, 2009, 05:08:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2009, 01:33:48 PM
If and when you do: Stay away from his 8th (turned me off Haitink's Mahler--unjustly, except in this case--for YEARS), indulge in his latest Fourth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=449)!
Well, Jens, almost anyone's eighth is enough to turn most folks off to Mahler!  Ever come across one you love truly, madly, deeply?  BTW, I love   Christine Schäfer, making Haitink's latest 4th nearly self-recommending.  Perhaps I will give it a hearing today.  (I was deeply pleased last night when, in casual discussion with my wife and me, our younger son said something to the effect that the 4th is under-appreciated and that he especially loves the 4th movement...clearly we must have done something right in raising him!)

However, I must take exception to one comment (what? only one?  ;) ) in the capsule review you linked to: "only one Mahler recording issued in 2008 really, truly stands out among the lot."  I guess that means you missed the MTT/SFS DLVDE released last fall.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 23, 2009, 08:45:03 AM
The New York Philharmonic just announced digital downloads of Maazel's Mahler cycle, made from live recordings over the last six years.  Information here (http://nyphil.org/buy/eStore/maazelMahler.cfm?utm_medium=homepage&utm_source=banner1_mahlerset_0623).  I was in the audience for Nos. 1, 5 and 6, and enjoyed them very much.  The orchestra certainly played them magnificently. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2009, 10:05:46 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 23, 2009, 05:08:50 AM
Well, Jens, almost anyone's eighth is enough to turn most folks off to Mahler!  Ever come across one you love truly, madly, deeply? 

However, I must take exception to one comment (what? only one?  ;) ) in the capsule review you linked to: "only one Mahler recording issued in 2008 really, truly stands out among the lot."  I guess that means you missed the MTT/SFS DLVDE released last fall.  ;D

1.) Yes, absolutely. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html)
Haitink's 8th is not disatisfactory because it's the 8th. It's just not anywhere near the better recordings of this admittedly weird, "garishly divine" symphony.

Yes, I did miss the MTTSFSDLVDE.   :'(
There are not many I missed, but that one I've not yet got.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 23, 2009, 10:33:11 AM
Quote from: bhodges on June 23, 2009, 08:45:03 AM
The New York Philharmonic just announced digital downloads of Maazel's Mahler cycle, made from live recordings over the last six years.  Information here (http://nyphil.org/buy/eStore/maazelMahler.cfm?utm_medium=homepage&utm_source=banner1_mahlerset_0623).  I was in the audience for Nos. 1, 5 and 6, and enjoyed them very much.  The orchestra certainly played them magnificently. 

--Bruce

Interesting!

I still have Maazel's Vienna cycle to listen to (the sole unlistened-to Mahler cycle in my collection), but especially in FLAC, these downloads are enticing. Not to mention this is the only New York Mahler cycle besides the Bernstein, if I'm not mistaken.

Kudos to the NY Phil for the extensive selection of formats and sources. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on June 23, 2009, 10:51:45 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 23, 2009, 10:33:11 AM
Not to mention this is the only New York Mahler cycle besides the Bernstein, if I'm not mistaken.

Well, since you didn't mention a conductor -- no, this is not the only New York Mahler cycle besides Bernstein's. There is this one (http://nyphil.org/buy/estore/itemDetail.cfm?itemnum=3&itemcategorynum=cds&itemdetail=yes) also.

Okay, it's not a cycle per se.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 23, 2009, 10:57:05 AM
Quote from: opus106 on June 23, 2009, 10:51:45 AM
Well, since you didn't mention a conductor

Cheating! It wasn't planned as an intégrale - therefore, it's a collection, not a cycle, even setting aside the conductor bit. ;D

More seriously, that New York box is what I've promised myself I'll get one day, after I've completed my list of currently-available Mahler cycles (still missing Sinopoli, and maybe Solti). It looks like something to cherish. 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on June 23, 2009, 10:59:39 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 23, 2009, 10:57:05 AM
Cheating! It wasn't planned as an intégrale - therefore, it's a collection, not a cycle, even setting aside the conductor bit. ;D

Duly noted. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 23, 2009, 11:00:27 AM
I also have the Maazel/Vienna cycle...had it for years but still in shrinkwrap. I just can't bring myself to listen to it. For some reason Maazel and Mahler doesn't quite tingle my spine.

My wife almost got me the NYPO (the $225 one) Mahler cycle for Christmas. I caught her trying to order it online and promptly stopped her. It could be pretty nice but for $225 you can get 3 or 4 cycles, or 3 or 4 nice tickets to hear some Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 23, 2009, 12:32:31 PM
Quote from: bhodges on June 23, 2009, 08:45:03 AM
The New York Philharmonic just announced digital downloads of Maazel's Mahler cycle, made from live recordings over the last six years.  Information here (http://nyphil.org/buy/eStore/maazelMahler.cfm?utm_medium=homepage&utm_source=banner1_mahlerset_0623).  I was in the audience for Nos. 1, 5 and 6, and enjoyed them very much.  The orchestra certainly played them magnificently. 

--Bruce
Aw, man..... for some reason, when I read "digital dowloads", I thought "free downloads." But it's not... :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 23, 2009, 01:29:37 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 23, 2009, 10:05:46 AM
1.) Yes, absolutely. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html)
Haitink's 8th is not disatisfactory because it's the 8th. It's just not anywhere near the better recordings of this admittedly weird, "garishly divine" symphony.

Yes, I did miss the MTTSFSDLVDE.   :'(
There are not many I missed, but that one I've not yet got.
Okay, Jens, I just ordered a 'like new' copy of Ozawa's Tanglewood 8th.  Like you, I'm a fan of the Nagano recording, and Sinopoli's, and the DGG Bernstein and Kubelik's are also better than most at making this awkward, ambitious monstrosity hang together.  And our tastes coincide closely enough that I'm happy to try discovering whether Ozawa's 8th hangs fire or catches fire.  (I've never heard Abbado's and have heard Wit's only via Naxos streaming.)

And I've cued up Haitink's latest 4th on Rhapsody but haven't thrown the go switch yet.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 23, 2009, 01:34:14 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 23, 2009, 01:29:37 PM
Okay, Jens, I just ordered a 'like new' copy of Ozawa's Tanglewood 8th.  Like you, I'm a fan of the Nagano recording, and Sinopoli's, and the DGG Bernstein and Kubelik's are also better than most at making this awkward, ambitious monstrosity hang together.

No Chailly?  (I haven't heard Nagano, Kubelik, Rattle/Berlin or Ozawa yet.)  Boulez?  Just curious...

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2009, 01:58:10 PM
Quote from: bhodges on June 23, 2009, 01:34:14 PM
No Chailly?  (I haven't heard Nagano, Kubelik, Rattle/Berlin or Ozawa yet.)  Boulez?  Just curious...

--Bruce

Nope... Boulez' Eigth is--and this coming from someone who loves, not likes, most of Boulez' Mahler--is by far his weakest of the 9+L (too bad he's not indulged us with a 10th). A really disappointment that I rank not much higher than Rattle. And that's one a pretty low rung of my Mahler-8th ladder. I've avoided passing 'official' judgment on it, so far, because I couldn't believe that I really did find it that lackluster. I'll get back to my comparative listening when the Gergiev 8th arrives. [I mightily fear a suckfest, but hey... surprise me, Gergiev.]

Chailly: Should be so good. But somehow it ain't. Mostly because the Chorus Mysticus stays strangely earthbound. That's the problem with Ozawa. No one... No one can do the Chorus Mysticus satisfactorily once you've heard that recording.  ;D

Chailly, btw., is the conductor I would most love to hear Mahler live with (ahead of Boulez, new-and-improved-Barenboim, even Abbado). But live is not the same as on record. Speaking of live: Daniele Gatti delivered a Mahler 4th recently (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/03/ionarts-at-large-mahler-supreme-lulu-to.html) (with the Munich Phil) that knocked my socks off... it was so fu&*$&ing good that it absolutely, positively needs expletives to get the point across.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 23, 2009, 02:08:20 PM
Fot the 8th, if Solti is too turbocharged, try Wyn Morris live, if you can get hold of it. The Witt is also VG as is Sinopoli.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 23, 2009, 02:10:48 PM
Quote from: bhodges on June 23, 2009, 01:34:14 PM
No Chailly?  (I haven't heard Nagano, Kubelik, Rattle/Berlin or Ozawa yet.)  Boulez?  Just curious...
Well, Bruce, you know what a fan I am of both.  Chailly's never quite engaged me and with Boulez I thought that he came closer than most, maybe close enough that I could learn to listen out of real desire to hear it rather than a sense of duty, but that fire didn't catch until I got Nagano's, which seems to be a love it or hate it recording, since which I've not listened to any competing versions but Sinopoli's.  Maybe when the Ozawa disc arrives I'll do a little "competitive" listening.

Of course, since I don't feel that I've ever quite fallen in love with the 8th as I have with the others, I'm hardly the best to judge, and I suspect that if I ever do really fall in love with it, then my feelings toward all of these recordings might change.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 23, 2009, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: knight on June 23, 2009, 02:08:20 PM
Fot the 8th, if Solti is too turbocharged, try Wyn Morris live, if you can get hold of it. The Witt is also VG as is Sinopoli.

Mike
I still haven't heard a recording I liked, for sure, more than Solti's 8th (same with the 7th). I suppose they have to be 'turbocharged' for me, or else they're not very exciting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 23, 2009, 02:46:53 PM
I have a live Boulez M8 from over 30 years ago. I like what Boulez does, a very plastic approach, also exciting. Perhaps over a generation he has rethought it and not to its advantage.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 23, 2009, 02:51:44 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 23, 2009, 02:43:14 PM
I still haven't heard a recording I liked, for sure, more than Solti's 8th (same with the 7th). I suppose they have to be 'turbocharged' for me, or else they're not very exciting.
That's one of the cool things about Mahler's "everything including the kitchen sink" approach to most of his symphonies (the 4th an exception, methinks):  there's something for everyone, from headbangers to chamber music fans.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on June 23, 2009, 02:54:36 PM
Forget ALL of those recordings of the 8th!  ;)
Tennstedt is the way to go.
Based on my previous likes and dislikes, while exploring various other recordings I was certain Solti's (whose often questioned approach I am a fan of in just about everything) would be the one for me...not so in this instance.  Tennstedt beats them all...the organic growth he leads until the final climax is absolutely tremendous.

(Though I still keep Solti on hand for the sheer NOISE of that massive choir and organ  :))
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 23, 2009, 03:09:57 PM
Tennstedt beats them all.........

What all? Have you heard the live Morris, Hornstein, Boulez.....the Wit, Bertini or the Sinopoli?

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2009, 03:57:30 PM
Quote from: Bahamut on June 23, 2009, 02:43:14 PM
I still haven't heard a recording I liked, for sure, more than Solti's 8th (same with the 7th). I suppose they have to be 'turbocharged' for me, or else they're not very exciting.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/214PCRSJ1ZL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
If "turbocharged" is how you need it, surely Neeme Jaervi's account is the one to go with. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000016LY/goodmusicguide-20)

(It's actually much better than some of its detractors claim (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/live-recordings-of-mahlers-eighth.html) or then I would have thought before I actually listened to it.
Speaking of which: Listening to a recording is, despite being considered "optional" in this forum, still the
best way to attain an opinion about a recording, after all.  ;) )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wilhelm Richard on June 23, 2009, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: knight on June 23, 2009, 03:09:57 PM
Tennstedt beats them all.........

What all? Have you heard the live Morris, Hornstein, Boulez.....the Wit, Bertini or the Sinopoli?


Yes on all of them but Wit and Morris.
Do some find it unacceptable that a Tennstedt version (of anything) could be the most preferred?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 23, 2009, 04:08:27 PM
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on June 23, 2009, 02:54:36 PM
Forget ALL of those recordings of the 8th!  ;)
Tennstedt is the way to go.
Based on my previous likes and dislikes, while exploring various other recordings I was certain Solti's (whose often questioned approach I am a fan of in just about everything) would be the one for me...not so in this instance.  Tennstedt beats them all...the organic growth he leads until the final climax is absolutely tremendous.

(Though I still keep Solti on hand for the sheer NOISE of that massive choir and organ  :))
The second movement of Tennstedt's 8th is the only part of his cycle I haven't gotten to yet. I've listened to the 1st movement a couple of times, and it hasn't grown on me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 23, 2009, 09:10:00 PM
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on June 23, 2009, 04:02:08 PM
Yes on all of them but Wit and Morris.
Do some find it unacceptable that a Tennstedt version (of anything) could be the most preferred?

No, but had no idea what 'all' meant, apart from Solti and for 'all' I knew, it might have meant a couple of versions.

As to Jarvi, I was in choir for a performance he conducted. In all I sang the piece about eight times, including for Boulez, the Jarvi was undoubtetedly good and certainly better than Leinsdorf, Gibson, Rudel or Maazel. The weak area was the opening of the 2nd Mvt, where he did noting with the orchestral introduction.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 23, 2009, 10:46:08 PM
Quote from: Wilhelm Richard on June 23, 2009, 02:54:36 PM
Forget ALL of those recordings of the 8th!  ;)
Tennstedt is the way to go.
Based on my previous likes and dislikes, while exploring various other recordings I was certain Solti's (whose often questioned approach I am a fan of in just about everything) would be the one for me...not so in this instance.  Tennstedt beats them all...the organic growth he leads until the final climax is absolutely tremendous.

Absolutely - and thank you for beating me to the punch. I love and adore the Mahler 8th, perhaps only second to the Mahler 9th among his canon, and that is largely because of Klaus Tennstedt. His is the reading that made the planets and suns revolve in my head, not in terms of 'sonic spectacular', but in terms of an attempt at 'mystical communion' not at all unlike the finale of the 2nd symphony.

I could probably write a number of paragraphs on the 8th, and on Tennstedt's reading in particular (especially the live one on DVD, which is possibly even better than the CD release), but I am sure most would be - perhaps rightly - tempted to skip them.

So I'll just note, for those wanting to make sense of the 8th as an organic whole, if any sense is there to be made, I've only decisively felt it in Tennstedt. On the other hand, I also admire Boulez, so perhaps it is my personal expectations that colour this judgement.


[For the record, besides the 2 Tennstedt's, I've heard - in no particular order - Chailly, Sinopoli, the 3 Bernsteins, Boulez, Kubelik, Solti, Bertini, Rattle, Abbado, Horenstein, Gielen, and Neumann (bleh); and I also own Maazel and Gergiev, still on the waiting list.]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on June 24, 2009, 09:17:46 AM
Okay guys: I just listened again to the DGG Boulez version of the Eighth.

I can see where some people want ever more volume and drive: Boulez, however, let's you hear all the music.  There is a chamber clarity to many of the sections.

Especially thrilling is the conclusion of Part I, where the choirs' ascension is more astonishing than any other recording I have ever heard, including the Solti, probably because Boulez slows things down a bit and focuses the ear on them.

The Finale I also find marvelous: I cranked it up on my BOSE Surround Sound ( Mrs. Cato is gone today!   0:)  ) and have no complaints.  The third note on the trumpet calls jumping a ninth is slightly less loud each time, again giving this feeling of ascension.  I can understand where some want it to be at a near-hysteric volume, like the D-Clarinets in the Sixth, but there is a case to be made for this idea.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 24, 2009, 09:27:20 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 24, 2009, 09:17:46 AM
Okay guys: I just listened again to the DGG Boulez version of the Eighth.

I can see where some people want ever more volume and drive: Boulez, however, let's you hear all the music.  There is a chamber clarity to many of the sections.

But for that chamber clarity, how about Abbado's recording?

Ahhh... screw my listening plan... (which would have been Reger): I'll pop in a Mahler 8th now, too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on June 24, 2009, 11:02:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 24, 2009, 09:27:20 AM
But for that chamber clarity, how about Abbado's recording?


I can believe it: I heard him conduct the Berlin Philharmonic at a concert with Arnold Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande and was astounded by the clarity of all the dense counterpoint in the score, which some conductors treat as R. Straussian mush.  One of the greatest performances of the work I have ever heard.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on June 24, 2009, 11:49:54 AM
Quote from: Senta on June 02, 2009, 01:27:51 AM

Now - there is an extremely interesting and fantastic recording of his 5th with Houston on tour in Vienna in 1992. This one is fascinating interpretively and as such draws me back to it again and again, plus the playing just catches fire by the 2nd mvmt and they really smoke on through to the end.

Eschenbach goes further than he should with many, many things in that performance, though they follow him perfectly and it certainly makes you think of the music in a different way. I honestly can't say that it doesn't work on some level - it is so musical and committed throughout. There are sections in the 2nd mvmt where he just pulls time like taffy, and no more so than in the Adagietto which is very broad and hangs in the air as a misty timeless haze, it is really unique and special. The Philly recording is far less radical, more mellow and straightforward, but he still makes some of the same points.

Here is the Houston recording, was only on a private subscriber CD:
http://rapidshare.com/files/239815244/M5EschenbachHouston1992Vienna.rar


I am downloading that now and look forward to a good listen.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on June 24, 2009, 11:50:53 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 24, 2009, 09:17:46 AM
Okay guys: I just listened again to the DGG Boulez version of the Eighth.
I can see where some people want ever more volume and drive: Boulez, however, let's you hear all the music.  There is a chamber clarity to many of the sections.

I totally agree with this. Boulez casually excels in the kind of x-ray transparency that e.g. Rattle obviously struggles for but fails dismally most times he tries.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 24, 2009, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 24, 2009, 11:50:53 AM
I totally agree with this. Boulez casually excels in the kind of x-ray transparency that e.g. Rattle obviously struggles for but fails dismally most times he tries.

That's in any case the easy stereotype of Boulez. And absolutely true for his (excellent) 3rd. But not at all, for example, for his 1st, 5th, 6th, which are (excellent) gushing and warm-blooded beasts. Nor for his 2nd (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/06/boulez-latest-mahler.html). Well, I'll get around to his Eight plenty more times before saving my judgement of it as anything more than cursory & temporary.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on June 24, 2009, 11:46:43 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 24, 2009, 12:16:11 PM
That's in any case the easy stereotype of Boulez. And absolutely true for his (excellent) 3rd. But not at all, for example, for his 1st, 5th, 6th, which are (excellent) gushing and warm-blooded beasts. Nor for his 2nd (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/06/boulez-latest-mahler.html). Well, I'll get around to his Eight plenty more times before saving my judgement of it as anything more than cursory & temporary.

I did not mean it as a negative (neither did I primarily mean it for his Mahler recordings - of which I only own his renditions of the Eighth, the Third and the Second). I find that in his best moments he seems able to combine transparency and effusiveness.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Catison on June 25, 2009, 04:58:34 AM
Great interview from the Mahler blog.

http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=5280231
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 25, 2009, 06:17:23 AM
For those who haven't discovered that site yet, it's http://www.universaledition.com/mahler/ (http://www.universaledition.com/mahler/), already with several interesting brief interviews with leading conductors about Mahler's music and their relationships to it.  It's interesting that so many--Barenboim, Boulez, Welser-Möst--started with the 5th.  It's interesting that all of these men, and Gatti, too, express concern about going too far in using Mahler as a springboard for the conductor's self-expression, that they are respectful of Mahler's carefully worked out directions re. dynamics and tempo, and they recognize that the careful balances and finely crafted architecture of the music can be easily overwhelmed by such self-indulgence.  Boulez and Barenboim's comments about Mahler's judicious dynamic balance between instruments or groups of instruments are instructive--I think this is what W-M was referring to as the finesse of his instrumentation.  And I really liked Barenboim's observation that Mahler is one of the very few symphonists whose symphonies each have a distinctive idiom, which he called "the most wonderful thing" about Mahler's music.

I hope they will add interviews with MTT and Fischer and Abbado and Jansons and Chailly and others (Barshai!) as time goes on, for the plan is to keep adding to the site over the next year+ celebrating the centennial of Mahler's passing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 25, 2009, 09:11:54 AM
What does everyone think about Horenstein's recordings?
After hearing about how much the 3rd and the 8th are admired (as if they are some of the greatest recordings out there), I found out that he's recorded all of them, even though I couldn't find a box set that exists.
Out of curiosity, what does his 3rd and 8th sound like? I might consider checking them out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 25, 2009, 09:27:36 AM
Quote from: God on June 25, 2009, 09:11:54 AM
What does everyone think about Horenstein's recordings?
After hearing about how much the 3rd and the 8th are admired (as if they are some of the greatest recordings out there), I found out that he's recorded all of them, even though I couldn't find a box set that exists.

I don't think he recorded all of them. I don't think there are any recordings by him of the 2nd and the 5th.

I had the famous 3rd in its LP incarnation. It's a good performance, and gives a greater sense of unity than most other performances I've heard. However, I can think of a number of 3rds that are better. I suspect a lot of people rate it so highly for nostalgic reasons - there weren't a lot of Mahler 3rds when it was released, and Horenstein had a "cult conductor" reputation, which added to the mystique I think.

I recommend highly his 1st with the LSO, however - if only for the finale (especially the coda), which is quite spectacular.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 25, 2009, 09:50:33 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 23, 2009, 05:08:50 AM
Well, Jens, almost anyone's eighth is enough to turn most folks off to Mahler!  Ever come across one you love truly, madly, deeply?

Bernstein's on CBS. However, the first one I heard, Tennstedt's, made me ask my friend the critic "What was that?"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 25, 2009, 10:07:41 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on June 25, 2009, 09:27:36 AMI had the famous 3rd in its LP incarnation. It's a good performance, and gives a greater sense of unity than most other performances I've heard. However, I can think of a number of 3rds that are better. I suspect a lot of people rate it so highly for nostalgic reasons - there weren't a lot of Mahler 3rds when it was released, and Horenstein had a "cult conductor" reputation, which added to the mystique I think.

Over the past several years I have often been disappointed on hearing the "cult" favorite recordings of Mahler and Beethoven and Sibelius and so on from the "Golden Age" of the '30s, '40s (!), and '50s.  I agree with you about the role played by nostalgia and mystique, plus I think many of us "imprint" on the first recordings we loved, and I also suspect that in some cases there's a significant component of snobbery involved in praising old and comparatively obscure recordings over recent ones that are more widely known and readily available.  (Psst--buddy.  Yeah, you!  Wanna buy a rare and unknown download in crappy mono sound of a full rehearsal run-through performance of Mahler's Fifth conducted by Bruno Walter's third cousin, Max, leading the St. Monica's School for Girls and the Incurably Insane Symphony Orchestra and Marching Band?  I swear it'll knock yer sox off!  Not even Tony Duggan has a copy of this one!)  

My own belief is that the post-War Pax Americana created an era of peace and prosperity that promoted an incredible flowering in all the arts, that there are now more brilliant musicians and conductors than ever before--and by orders of magnitude--and that despite the intrinsic deficiencies of digital, the maturation of digital recording technology in the 1990s and 2000s spawned a new Golden Age of recording that puts the previous one in the shade.  And furthermore, that this may be more true of Mahler recordings than of most, for it is our contemporary period that has enjoyed the fruit of the first generation of musicians to grow up hearing Mahler and regarding him as a remarkable artist and not as a peculiar oddity.

That said, I have never heard Horenstein's Mahler 8th or his 3rd and I've been around enough to know better than to pass judgment on things I've never experienced!  (Most things, that is.  Do we really have to experience high voltage electrical currents applied to our most sensitive soft tissue to know that it won't likely be our cuppa?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 25, 2009, 10:28:49 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 25, 2009, 10:07:41 AM
Over the past several years I have often been disappointed on hearing the "cult" favorite recordings of Mahler and Beethoven and Sibelius and so on from the "Golden Age" of the '30s, '40s (!), and '50s.  I agree with you about the role played by nostalgia and mystique, plus I think many of us "imprint" on the first recordings we loved, and I also suspect that in some cases there's a significant component of snobbery involved in praising old and comparatively obscure recordings over recent ones that are more widely known and readily available.

Reading some sites (like rmcr), I get the impression that the more obscure a recording is, the more highly it is valued. It helps if the recording is in execrable sound, or on a medium accessible to few, like reel-to-reel tape.

Don't let that dissuade you from trying the Horenstein 3rd, though. It is actually worth hearing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 25, 2009, 12:14:23 PM
Ah, I see... I tried looking for 2 and 5, and couldn't find them- 2 was a CD with a different conductor, and 5 I just imagined seeing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 25, 2009, 01:25:52 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 25, 2009, 09:11:54 AM
Out of curiosity, what does his 3rd and 8th sound like? I might consider checking them out.

I've heard the 3rd, but strongly disliked the sound on the CD transfer. Not its fidelity, its 'texture'. It felt tiring to listen to.

The 8th on BBC Legends has much better sound, and is quite a great performance. I'd rank it close to Stokowski's, which I forgot to mention above, as the two best pre-Tennstedt (call them 'historical') 8ths I've heard. Oh, and Mitropoulos, another excellent historical 8th I forgot, but that one's quite uneven, so I would recommend it only if you're curious and/or a fan of his style. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2009, 01:56:15 PM
Quote
Quote from: Spitvalve on Today at 09:27:36 AM
I had the famous 3rd in its LP incarnation. It's a good performance, and gives a greater sense of unity than most other performances I've heard. However, I can think of a number of 3rds that are better. I suspect a lot of people rate it so highly for nostalgic reasons - there weren't a lot of Mahler 3rds when it was released, and Horenstein had a "cult conductor" reputation, which added to the mystique I think.
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 25, 2009, 10:07:41 AM
Over the past several years I have often been disappointed on hearing the "cult" favorite recordings of Mahler and Beethoven and Sibelius and so on from the "Golden Age" of the '30s, '40s (!), and '50s.  I agree with you about the role played by nostalgia and mystique, plus I think many of us "imprint" on the first recordings we loved, and I also suspect that in some cases there's a significant component of snobbery involved in praising old and comparatively obscure recordings over recent ones that are more widely known and readily available.  

I can't remember EVER having read two such incredibly sane and downright enlightened points [I am not facetious, boys!!!] in a row on the topic of Mahler. Or record collecting in classical music, for that matter. It's REALLY refreshing. Sweet. Sanity & reason will win! (Maybe.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 25, 2009, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: Renfield on June 25, 2009, 01:25:52 PM
I've heard the 3rd, but strongly disliked the sound on the CD transfer. Not its fidelity, its 'texture'. It felt tiring to listen to.

The 8th on BBC Legends has much better sound, and is quite a great performance. I'd rank it close to Stokowski's, which I forgot to mention above, as the two best pre-Tennstedt (call them 'historical') 8ths I've heard. Oh, and Mitropoulos, another excellent historical 8th I forgot, but that one's quite uneven, so I would recommend it only if you're curious and/or a fan of his style. :)
Thanks! Good to know..... the Stokowski is new to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 08:06:04 AM
Holy crap, the Gergiev M6 is fast!  I thought M6 was an 85 minute symphony (on average).  Gergiev and LSO's is 77 minutes (at least one positive part is it fits on 1 CD)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on June 28, 2009, 08:18:20 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 08:06:04 AM
Holy crap, the Gergiev M6 is fast!  I thought M6 was an 85 minute symphony (on average).  Gergiev and LSO's is 77 minutes (at least one positive part is it fits on 1 CD)
That's about five minutes slower than Kubelik!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: edward on June 28, 2009, 08:18:20 AM
That's about five minutes slower than Kubelik!

Really, wow!  :o  So, who has the longest one?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 28, 2009, 08:54:22 AM
Quote from: edward on June 28, 2009, 08:18:20 AM
That's about five minutes slower than Kubelik!

Takes longer than Kubelik, but isn't slower. If I remember correctly, Kubelik--you are talking about the DG or Audite recording, I take it?--doesn't take the expo-repeat (like Barbirolli), whereas Gergiev does.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on June 28, 2009, 09:00:06 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 28, 2009, 08:54:22 AM
Takes longer than Kubelik, but isn't slower. If I remember correctly, Kubelik--you are talking about the DG or Audite recording, I take it?--doesn't take the expo-repeat (like Barbirolli), whereas Gergiev does.
Yeah. It's one of my knocks against the recording (as it is with Barbirolli).

I haven't heard any of the Gergievs, so wasn't sure if he took the repeat or not.

I rather suspect that the Scherchen live recording is the fastest M6 ever, though the massive cuts make it impossible to assess just from timings. It's definitely too fast for me at times, though it's quite the experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
So, who has the longest one?  ;D

Or do I even need to ask?  Is it Celibidache?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 09:07:14 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 09:00:17 AM
Or do I even need to ask?  Is it Celibidache?

Never mind.  It doesn't look like Celibidache ever recorded any Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 28, 2009, 09:23:04 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 08:06:04 AM
Holy crap, the Gergiev M6 is fast!  I thought M6 was an 85 minute symphony (on average).  Gergiev and LSO's is 77 minutes (at least one positive part is it fits on 1 CD)

I like Gergiev's quite a lot, with a couple of caveats. First, he does the Andante-Scherzo thing, whereas I like it the other way. Second, the sonics are pretty dry, which damps down the climaxes a bit too much, especially in the Finale. But if you like this symphony it's definitely worth checking out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 28, 2009, 09:24:45 AM
Quote from: edward on June 28, 2009, 09:00:06 AM
Yeah. It's one of my knocks against the recording (as it is with Barbirolli).

At Barbirolli's tempo, it makes perfect sense. Can you imagine what a chore that mvt. would be if he took the repeat?  :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 09:28:40 AM
Quote from: Spitvalve on June 28, 2009, 09:23:04 AM
I like Gergiev's quite a lot, with a couple of caveats. First, he does the Andante-Scherzo thing, whereas I like it the other way. Second, the sonics are pretty dry, which damps down the climaxes a bit too much, especially in the Finale. But if you like this symphony it's definitely worth checking out.

I do, so I'll be fair and give it a full listen.  :)

I also don't like the Andante/Scherzo order, much much prefer the Scherzo/Andante order.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2009, 02:46:35 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
So, who has the longest one?

That's a rather personal question!  :D

Sinopoli is probably the longest overall, coming in at 93:12...nine minutes longer than Barbirolli.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on June 28, 2009, 05:57:57 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2009, 02:46:35 PM
That's a rather personal question!  :D

Sinopoli is probably the longest overall, coming in at 93:12...nine minutes longer than Barbirolli.

Sarge

About 20 minutes longer than Kubelik's.
WOW!

I need to hear Sinopoli's.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 28, 2009, 06:02:32 PM
Am I the only here who has heard Kondrashin's Mahler? It might be the fastest one, or close- only 65 minutes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2009, 04:15:28 AM
Quote from: Greg on June 28, 2009, 06:02:32 PM
Am I the only here who has heard Kondrashin's Mahler? It might be the fastest one, or close- only 65 minutes.
Yeah, 65:40 ...although he too omits the first movement exposition repeat (as does Szell, another Sixth that fits on one CD) which skews the results somewhat. Still, Kondrashin is definitely one of the speed demons (Andante 12:40, Finale 24:40).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Diletante on July 06, 2009, 08:58:45 AM
Listened to the Seventh for the first time last night (from Sinopoli's cycle). Beauuuuuuutiful fourth movement! But I found the finale too noisy! My first impression is "I wish it had ended with the fourth movement". Let's see what happens after repeated hearings. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 06, 2009, 09:15:35 AM
New Release update:

From Telos:

TLS 1001: Gustav Mahler, Des Knaben Wunderhorn, (World Premiere Recording), Diana Damrau, sopran, Iván Paley, baritone, Stephan Matthias Lademann, piano
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on July 23, 2009, 06:32:53 AM
Last week, Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic did the Mahler First in Central Park, but the end of the symphony was halted by torrential rains--pretty much the entire last movement, from what I heard.  As a coda to this concert interruptus, the orchestra has put up a recording of the piece that Gilbert did last May in Avery Fisher Hall, which got excellent reviews.  (I have not yet heard it, but friends who have say it's quite fine.) 

It's free and available through July 30 on the orchestra's website. 

www.nyphil.org

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on July 23, 2009, 06:47:39 AM
Information much appreciated, Bruce. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on July 23, 2009, 07:34:03 AM
My pleasure.  :D

PS, just started listening to it now, and I must say, interpretive comments aside for now, the orchestra sounds fabulous.  Even the sometimes-maligned horn section is sounding great. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 08, 2009, 05:10:57 PM
On a Mahler 3 roll last week. I listened to various recordings, trying to make up my mind as to what approach really 'worked' in this gigantic score. My conclusion is that vastly different interpretations can uncover riches and turn a convincing performance, as long as conviction and intensity are brought along in the mix.

First in the player was the notorious 1956 Mitropoulos NYPO. It's notorious because it's cut (first and last movements), it's breathtakingly fast in places (first two movements), and it's hallucinatorily intense troughout. Sound is ok once you get past the shock of hearing this kind of phone booth acoustic in music that calls for the widest sonic expanses. After hearing the others I kept comparing them to this one in my mind and found most of them wanting in exhilaration, a sense of wonder and sheer manic intensity.

Then I put Mitropoulos' final concert disc, hailing from Stuttgart (1960). He died a few days later. This is in mono, but very clear and wide ranging. It's generally considered 'the' Mitropoulos 3rd. I don't know by what criteria though. It's very well played but the stuttgarters don't hold a candle - by far - to the new yorkers in collective or individual virtuosity and intensity of utterance. The whole thing (uncut) sounds rather cautious, as if the orchestra were discovering the music for the first time - which may very well have been the case.  Tempi are rather weighty and tend to plod. A disappointment.

Third in line was Heinz Rögner's 1983 Berlin Radio Symphony version (Berlin Classics). Recorded in Berlin's Jesus-Christus Kirche, this boasts  phenomenal sonics. Huge depth of sound allied to crystal clear placement, unlimited dynamic range and uncluttered textures. It's easily the best *recording* of this symphony, and one of the best of anything I've heard. The orchestra is excellent and very confident. They don't boast the weigth and trenchancy the very best ensembles can bring, but they can't be faulted anywhere. This is the same orchestra used by Chailly in some of his Bruckner and Mahler recordings. Rögner is a sure-footed guide through the work's changing panoramas. His is not a discursive or rambling traversal by any means. There's a fine sense of continuity, but also a feeling everything is under safe control. But Rögner has a few quirky touches that put a stamp of originality on his POV. First, there is the posthorn solo in III. Unusually, this is not heard from a distance, but up close on a muted instrument. The effect is quite rustic, whereas the trend has been to beautify this part - understandably, as the player (usually a trumpetist) is in the spotlight and has a rare chance to wax lyrical with his instrument. Definitely individual. Second, in the beautiful contralto solo, his oboe player plays upward slides the likes of which I haven't heard anywhere else (although Chailly's Concertgebouw oboist comes close). This is ear popping stuff. The American Record Guide reviewer thought very negatively of these two 'effects', whereas I was delighted with the results. Lastly, after a relatively sober and unexceptional approach to tempos, Rögner takes the coda of VI in an exultant romp, producing an exciting sense of homecoming. The obverse side though is that this fast coda negates the expected feeling of nobility brought to the point of exaltation. Altogether, I found this version exceptional on purely aural grounds, excellent in terms of playing and quite original for its conducting. Currently available in its original format at BRO. It's been reissued in by Berlin Classics in a no frills cardboard gatefold, for twice the price.

Chailly and the Concertgebouw (2004) were next. This is an exceptional traversal from a purely orchestral standpoint, and the sound is quite jaw-dropping in its beauty and power. Note that the bass drum - and just about anything low-lying (winds or brass) have more presence and sound more natural in the Rögner Berlin version. Nonetheless, I found Chailly's very coherent version quite satisfying in its own right. There is a restraint that does not quite allow the music to take flight. The grotesque, swooning, exultant, inebriated character that form the very character of the first movement are held in symphonic check. The posthorn solo is beautifully played, as is the rest of the movement (the work's pivot IMO). Surprisingly, Chailly goes for the wide slides on the oboe counterpointing the alto's voice in IV. Once again, this is a startling effect, the more so since it's the first sign of conductorial quirkiness  since the work started over an hour ago. The pacing of the final Adagio is perfect. This Rolls-Royce of an orchestra cover themselves in glory in the final blaze of golden brass, firm and noble timpani poundings and lush, firm, vibrant bed of strings. Comfy and beautifully played and recorded, but not compelling enough.

I then turned the clock back some 35 years and went for Kubelik's classic rendering on DG. Confident and hugely characterful playing from the BRSO (listen to the sizzling onslaught of basses following the initial horn call in I - unreplicated anywhere, although the Berlin basses come close). Kubelik's is an urgent traversal of I, and he attends to its myriad mood changes without ever putting a foot wrong. This is an excellent version of the symphony until the contralto solo movement. Unfortunately Norma Procter's vocal intensity is of the wrong kind, producing edgy results where one would wish for an oasis of purity and beauty. The final movement is superb. The sound is very good, though quite light in the bass. Perfectly serviceable, but it pales in comparison to the gorgeous Berlin and Amsterdam.

As a final try I put on the Delos with Litton conducting the Dallas Symphony. This was taken from 4 live performances. The same cautiousness and application heard in Stuttgart are heard here, but in better sound. Overall Litton is a faithful guide through the score, but he doesn't reveal anything special. The contralto solo is ho-hum. Although at first hearing the sound appears to be commendably big and wide-ranging, it's also seriously unbalanced and tends to get cloudy here and there. For some reason the winds are heard way in the back, as if from far behind the rest of the orchestra. Not a good idea.

No cigars then, but a cigarillo to the gorgeous Rögner, the faithful and touching Kubelik, and the hyperintense, perverse NY Mitropoulos versions. Nobody should feel shortchanged with the Chailly Concertgebouw discs. You can't ask for a more glorious orchestral execution, captured in superb sound. It just lacks distinction and persuasion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 08, 2009, 09:23:56 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 08, 2009, 05:10:57 PM

First in the player was the notorious 1956 Mitropoulos NYPO. It's notorious because it's cut (first and last movements), it's breathtakingly fast in places (first two movements), and it's hallucinatorily intense throughout.

You're not hallucinating. It really _is_ sung in English.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on August 09, 2009, 02:24:15 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 08, 2009, 05:10:57 PM


Then I put Mitropoulos' final concert disc, hailing from Stuttgart (1960). He died a few days later. This is in mono, but very clear and wide ranging. It's generally considered 'the' Mitropoulos 3rd. I don't know by what criteria though. It's very well played but the stuttgarters don't hold a candle - by far - to the new yorkers in collective or individual virtuosity and intensity of utterance. The whole thing (uncut) sounds rather cautious, as if the orchestra were discovering the music for the first time - which may very well have been the case.  Tempi are rather weighty and tend to plod. A disappointment.



Ask Hurwitz, that is his point of view (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=544). For me it is ok but far too straight forward for Mitropoulos, perhaps reflecting his poor health at time of performance. There is part of it I quite like though, the bim-bams. He somehow makes that movement sound uncharacteristically dark and ominous instead like usual chirpy annoyance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 09, 2009, 09:42:07 AM
Speaking of bim-bams, the NY performance is not only sung in English, but by women alone. Not a boy within earshot ! This is from the broadcast performance, a 90 minute program with spoken introduction. Hence the cuts. There were 3 subsequent performances that week of April 1956, none cut. I wish one of these had been recorded instead.

This reviewer (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=1657) and this one (http://www.operatoday.com/content/2006/11/mahler_symphony.php) have an opinion opposite to Hurwitz' or Chakwin (from ARG). Which is ok. Mahler opinions tend to run strong and are subject to overemphasis.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on August 09, 2009, 01:04:37 PM
Lilas, have you ever listened to Haitink/CSO or Martinon/CSO in Mahler 3?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 09, 2009, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on August 09, 2009, 01:04:37 PM
Lilas, have you ever listened to Haitink/CSO or Martinon/CSO in Mahler 3?

Or Levine/CSO, one of my favorite M3s

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 10, 2009, 09:28:27 PM
Quote from: tanuki on July 06, 2009, 08:58:45 AM
Listened to the Seventh for the first time last night (from Sinopoli's cycle). Beauuuuuuutiful fourth movement! But I found the finale too noisy! My first impression is "I wish it had ended with the fourth movement". Let's see what happens after repeated hearings. :)
That finale is in its way the biggest "shock" in Mahler :)  I think of the 7th as the most childish and innocent symphony (even more than the 4th), and the finale should really be just flat-out fun.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on August 11, 2009, 08:17:40 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 10, 2009, 09:28:27 PM
That finale is in its way the biggest "shock" in Mahler :)  I think of the 7th as the most childish and innocent symphony (even more than the 4th), and the finale should really be just flat-out fun.
I'm not sure I'd agree with this view of the work. To me, part of the greatness of the 7th is that it can be successfully played in almost any way you care. (If you can find a copy of Hermann Scherchen conducting the Toronto Symphony Orchestra in the Canadian premiere of the work, you can even hear the finale being played as a wild ride into Hell.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 11, 2009, 01:16:34 PM
I haven't listened to the Martinon, Haitink or Levine 3rds (the CSO ones). ARG had great things to say about the Haitink, and both the Martinon and Levine are among their staple recommendations. The others I've heard (used to have) are the Haitink Amsterdam, LSO Horenstein, Bernstein DG, Abbado VPO (DG). I have heard the Boulez DG and Bernstein Sony only once, not enough to form an opinion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 12, 2009, 04:59:08 AM
In the past few days I've listened to three 3rds--Sinopoli/Philharmonia, MTT/SFS, and Abbado/WP--and loved each of them.  This used to be my least loved of the nine, along with the 8th, but I have come to love it right along with the rest (still working on the 8th, however  ;) ).  Think I'll be spinning Boulez, Kubelik, Salonen next, then Bernstein while I seek a copy of the Rögner recording Lilias liked so much.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 13, 2009, 04:25:33 PM
David, the Rögner is available on BRO. If it's gone, PM me  ;).

I, too, have some trouble with the 8th. Along with 1 and 7, I sometimes am in its thrall, sometimes can't listen through to the end.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Häuschen on August 13, 2009, 07:06:56 PM
Quote from: bhodges on July 23, 2009, 06:32:53 AM
Last week, Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic did the Mahler First in Central Park, but the end of the symphony was halted by torrential rains--pretty much the entire last movement, from what I heard.  As a coda to this concert interruptus, the orchestra has put up a recording of the piece that Gilbert did last May in Avery Fisher Hall, which got excellent reviews.  (I have not yet heard it, but friends who have say it's quite fine.) 

It's free and available through July 30 on the orchestra's website. 

www.nyphil.org

--Bruce

And follow along with Mahler's annotated score!  Incredible!  Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MDL on September 11, 2009, 03:30:30 AM
Mahler 10 was performed by the Leipzig Gewandhaus under Chailly at the Proms on Monday 7/9/09. Despite a surprising number of flubs from the brass, it was a beautiful performance. I'd never heard the LGO in the flesh before and they made a gorgeous sound.

But Chailly had a big surprise in store. At the very end of the fourth movement, and throughout the finale, the single drum thwacks were replaced by a triplet figure (ba-ba-bum). It was actually extremely effective, I thought, but I've never heard the drum strokes played that way in any other performance, and I've got at least half a dozen recordings of various completions.

Has this been tried by any other conductor?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: secondwind on October 02, 2009, 06:54:02 PM
Listening to Mahler's 6th this week.  I'm not that familiar with Mahler.  Now I'm a bit worried.  Is Mahler addictive?  I found myself listening to the 2nd movement repeatedly for a couple of days, and now I feel compelled to do that with the other movements in turn. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 02, 2009, 08:15:22 PM
Quote from: secondwind on October 02, 2009, 06:54:02 PM
Listening to Mahler's 6th this week.  I'm not that familiar with Mahler.  Now I'm a bit worried.  Is Mahler addictive?  I found myself listening to the 2nd movement repeatedly for a couple of days, and now I feel compelled to do that with the other movements in turn. 

Hmmm... what second movement?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on October 02, 2009, 10:02:24 PM
That's cruel.  >:D

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 02, 2009, 11:24:42 PM
Quote from: secondwind on October 02, 2009, 06:54:02 PM
Now I'm a bit worried.  Is Mahler addictive? 

yes.

period.

;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 02, 2009, 11:28:22 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 02, 2009, 08:15:22 PM
Hmmm... what second movement?

Quote from: knight on October 02, 2009, 10:02:24 PM
That's cruel.  >:D
Mike

;D


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 12:14:52 AM
Quote from: secondwind on October 02, 2009, 06:54:02 PM
Listening to Mahler's 6th this week.  I'm not that familiar with Mahler.  Now I'm a bit worried.  Is Mahler addictive?

Nah, not addictive at all. I only have 214 recordings of the symphonies. I can stop buying anytime I want..really, I can...and I will, rght after I complete the MTT cycle...and the Fischer...and the Gergiev...and the....


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 03, 2009, 12:47:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 12:14:52 AM
Nah, not addictive at all. I only have 214 recordings of the symphonies. I can stop buying anytime I want..really, I can...and I will, rght after I complete the MTT cycle...and the Fischer...and the Gergiev...and the....


Sarge

1.) I hate to disappoint you, but Fischer won't complete the cycle.

[Though perhaps someone else will conduct the missing M-Symphonies (at least the 8th, possibly more) for Channel Classics to round out the 'cycle'.]

2.) I'm really excited to announce that November will be Mahler Month at Classical WETA. Gutsy choice for a public classical radio station (you might have read how Mahler is not on the playlist for the new New York Classical Station) and all the more commendable.

3.) I can't believe you mention Gergiev's cycle ahead of Zinman's. Or Stenz'. Or...  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 01:23:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 03, 2009, 12:47:42 AM
1.) I hate to disappoint you, but Fischer won't complete the cycle.

ARRRGGGHHH!!!!

Quote from: jlaurson on October 03, 2009, 12:47:42 AM
3.) I can't believe you mention Gergiev's cycle ahead of Zinman's. Or Stenz'. Or...  ;D

I haven't heard any of Zinman or Gergiev's Mahler yet so had no way to order them correctly. I take it you lean more towards Zinman  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 03, 2009, 01:42:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 01:23:50 AM
ARRRGGGHHH!!!!

If he doesn't like the 8th, why would you want him to conduct it? (You might end up with a snoozer like Haitink's Concertgebouw 8th.)
I find his attitude admirable, saying there are others better suited to conducting certain works... and letting them do it.

Quote
I haven't heard any of Zinman or Gergiev's Mahler yet so had no way to order them correctly. I take it you lean more towards Zinman  :D

Sarge

Right. Zinman is lovely, if rarely exciting.  Gergiev is not lovely, and rarely exciting. Zinman's 3rd I find very persuasive.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 02:21:00 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 03, 2009, 01:42:51 AM
If he doesn't like the 8th, why would you want him to conduct it?

I wouldn't. My expression of severe disappointment wasn't meant to be taken seriously.  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 03, 2009, 04:23:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 12:14:52 AM
Nah, not addictive at all. I only have 214 recordings of the symphonies. I can stop buying anytime I want..really, I can...and I will, rght after I complete the MTT cycle...and the Fischer...and the Gergiev...and the....


Sarge

Will Powaaaaa !!!!

;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 05:09:47 AM
Quote from: secondwind on October 02, 2009, 06:54:02 PM
Listening to Mahler's 6th this week.  I'm not that familiar with Mahler.  Now I'm a bit worried.  Is Mahler addictive?  I found myself listening to the 2nd movement repeatedly for a couple of days, and now I feel compelled to do that with the other movements in turn. 

Was it the Andante movement, or the Scherzo?  They are interchanged, depending on the conductor.  I love this entire symphony (my favorite of Mahler's), but that Andante is incredibly powerful and stirs my innards!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: secondwind on October 03, 2009, 05:53:57 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 05:09:47 AM
Was it the Andante movement, or the Scherzo?  They are interchanged, depending on the conductor.  I love this entire symphony (my favorite of Mahler's), but that Andante is incredibly powerful and stirs my innards!  :)
The Andante.  Okay, so I'm in trouble now.  Good new, I'm in the WETA listening area, so I'l get som freebie intros.  But then. . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 03, 2009, 06:09:54 AM
Quote from: secondwind on October 03, 2009, 05:53:57 AM
The Andante.  Okay, so I'm in trouble now.  Good new, I'm in the WETA listening area, so I'l get som freebie intros.  But then. . .

And WETA is also available as a free radio stream through iTunes et al. ("Classica WETA 90.9")
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 06:35:14 AM
Quote from: secondwind on October 03, 2009, 05:53:57 AM
The Andante. 

Ah...I understand the addiction. That's my single favorite movement. I've listened to it more than any other bit of Mahler.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: secondwind on October 03, 2009, 09:06:43 AM
Thanks, all.  Arriving in the mail today, to feed my new addiction, the BBC music magazine and disc, featuring Mahler, Das Lied von der Erde (German spelling approximate and from memory)...  So move over Mozart, time for another of the big M's. . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Tomo on October 03, 2009, 09:31:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 12:14:52 AM
Nah, not addictive at all. I only have 214 recordings of the symphonies. I can stop buying anytime I want..really, I can...and I will, rght after I complete the MTT cycle...and the Fischer...and the Gergiev...and the....


Sarge

Wow!!!  I bow down, Sarge.  From this point on, I feel that I will use the term "Sargential proportions" when making reference to a collection which has my admiration. :)

I'd say compulsive is a better word for me personally than addictive.  When I was going through my "Mahler gathering" stage, I'd keep on saying, "Ah, finally got my Mahler collection in cement."  Then, somebody would start raving about the new wave of recordings and I couldn't let things be. 

Now, I'm attempting to have only two recordings per piece on my computer.  This is harder than one might think.  Preferences do shift.  Should I go for a faster or slower interpretation?  Last night, I was going through his fifth and was surprised which recording I preferred most.  I also included what might prove to be an unpopular choice for my Das Lied as one of my two.  Thing is that I just love the two recordings and, although they might not be the most lauded, I would regret it if they weren't on my personal playlist.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 03, 2009, 09:42:27 AM
which versions by work did you narrow it down to, tomo ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Tomo on October 03, 2009, 10:48:35 AM
The No. 5 I was referring to was the Barshai.  Listened to it last night and the enthusiastic, spirited playing with the vitality of the live performance just breathes with excitement. I don't care if the players are young.  They just bring all they have to the table.

The other choice for 5 is still up in the air right now.  The Chailly might end up being the choice, but I'm not sure.  Might have to explore recordings beyond what I have heard in the past.

As for Das Lied, one was the Klemperer with Ludwig, which would be a popular choice.  The other, which I chose over others that probably would be more recommended, was the Oue/Minnesota.  I have an emotional attachment with that in that it was the first recording of the work I owned, but, more so, I do love the performances, especially Michele DeYoung, who brings a sensitive, almost fragile, beauty in her singing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 02:45:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2009, 06:35:14 AM
Ah...I understand the addiction. That's my single favorite movement. I've listened to it more than any other bit of Mahler.

Sarge

Ditto Sarge.....ditto!  0:)  Sarge, since you have so many recordings of the 6th, what are some of your favorites recordings (specifically of the Andante movement, or overall)?  I absolutely love the Tennstedt/LPO.....highly dramatic!

:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 03, 2009, 06:16:55 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 02:45:13 PM
Ditto Sarge.....ditto!  0:)  Sarge, since you have so many recordings of the 6th, what are some of your favorites recordings (specifically of the Andante movement, or overall)?  I absolutely love the Tennstedt/LPO.....highly dramatic!

:)
:o
Thank you for saying that!
That's by far my favorite recording as well... it sounds completely different from all of the other recordings I've heard, and in a good way. He's the only conductor that got me to finally fall in love with the Finale.

I'm starting to think we have some extremely similar tastes- not just this, but several other things as well...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 06:21:26 PM
Quote from: Greg on October 03, 2009, 06:16:55 PM
:o
Thank you for saying that!
That's by far my favorite recording as well... it sounds completely different from all of the other recordings I've heard, and in a good way. He's the only conductor that got me to finally fall in love with the Finale.

I'm starting to think we have some extremely similar tastes- not just this, but several other things as well...

Harry would probably also agree on the Tennstedt/LPO.  I know he loves that set a lot.

Hmmm, I can't say that I have particularly noticed whether we have extremely similar tastes, but perhaps it is the case!  If so, then you obviously have great taste in music!  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 03, 2009, 06:28:24 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 06:21:26 PM
Harry would probably also agree on the Tennstedt/LPO.  I know he loves that set a lot.

Hmmm, I can't say that I have particularly noticed whether we have extremely similar tastes, but perhaps it is the case!  If so, then you obviously have great taste in music!  ;D
Well, here's one example:

in the recent Shostakovich thread:

you wrote: 6th, 11th and 13th for me.
i wrote: 6, 11, and 14.

BUT I could just as easily take 13.

Also, that Brahms chamber music...... and fact that Bruckner grew on you and became one of your favorite symphonists.
I think there might be more, but that's all I can think of for now.

Though you really like Beethoven, right? That'd be our biggest difference, possibly... sometimes I do enjoy some of his stuff, but other times it somehow makes me nauseous...

But yeah, we both have good taste.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 06:58:09 PM
Quote from: Greg on October 03, 2009, 06:28:24 PM
Well, here's one example:

in the recent Shostakovich thread:

you wrote: 6th, 11th and 13th for me.
i wrote: 6, 11, and 14.

BUT I could just as easily take 13.

Also, that Brahms chamber music...... and fact that Bruckner grew on you and became one of your favorite symphonists.
I think there might be more, but that's all I can think of for now.

Though you really like Beethoven, right? That'd be our biggest difference, possibly... sometimes I do enjoy some of his stuff, but other times it somehow makes me nauseous...

But yeah, we both have good taste.  ;) ;D

Yes, those are all good examples.  Bruckner has become and still remains my favorite symphonist.  And, Brahms chamber music......ahhhh bliss!

Alas, Beethoven is still overall my favorite composer Greg.   :) Sorry to disappoint.  ;D

I had said 6, 11 and 13th originally in the Shostakovich thread as my favorites of the so-called 'non favorites' of his, but I had not noticed # 8 in that list.  So really, my choices would have been 6, 11 and 8.  Nothing wrong with 13 though.  10th is still by far my favorite there from the 'more popular' Shostakovich symphonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 03, 2009, 07:25:33 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 06:58:09 PM
I had said 6, 11 and 13th originally in the Shostakovich thread as my favorites of the so-called 'non favorites' of his, but I had not noticed # 8 in that list.  So really, my choices would have been 6, 11 and 8.  Nothing wrong with 13 though.  10th is still by far my favorite there from the 'more popular' Shostakovich symphonies.

Lol, that's actually pretty similar to me still.  :D
10 would be my second favorite (right after 4), and today I listened to 8 again. I enjoyed it more than I remembered- actually, I could probably just as easily have my list as 6, 11, and either 13, 14, or 8.

See, that's why I'm confused why I don't I never quite got Beethoven, even though I keep on giving him a try. I might have such similar tastes with someone like you or a few others on here, but it's completely different when it comes to him. I don't know why- it's weird.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 04:02:27 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 03, 2009, 02:45:13 PM
Ditto Sarge.....ditto!  0:)  Sarge, since you have so many recordings of the 6th, what are some of your favorites recordings (specifically of the Andante movement, or overall)?  I absolutely love the Tennstedt/LPO.....highly dramatic!
:)

These are the Sixths I own (copied and pasted from my master list--sorry for the caps). Favorites in bold (Zander for including the third hammerblow, which makes his Finale a must hear). My favorite Andante is Karajan's--the most beautiful recording he ever made but not stinting on the drama either. Sinopoli's is stark and very slow (almost 20  minutes long). He finds an almost unbearable sadness in the music--which, if you can stand the pain, is very compelling.

I find Tennstedt's Sixth (and Eschenbach's) rather special but haven't lived with either long enough to form a definite opinion. They may deserve a mention in bold too eventually  ;)  Actually, there are very few Sixths I don't like. Boulez and Bertini don't do anything for me. Neumann I can take or leave.

SZELL           CLEVELAND
BERNSTEIN        VIENNA
BERNSTEIN           NEW YORK
SOLTI           CHICAGO
KARAJAN   BERLIN PHIL
T.SANDERLING   ST PETERSBURG PHIL
BARBIROLLI   NEW PHILH
ZANDER           PHILHARMONIA
BOULEZ           VIENNA
BERTINI           KÖLNER RSO
MAAZEL           VIENNA
TENNSTEDT   LPO
CHAILLY           CONCERTGEBOUW
KONDRASHIN   LENINGRAD PHIL
SINOPOLI   PHILHARMONIA
NEUMANN           CZECH PHIL
LEVI                   ATLANTA
DOHNÁNYI           CLEVELAND
RATTLE           CBSO
RATTLE           BERLIN PHIL
GIELEN           SWR BADEN
MITROPOULOS   PHILHARMONIC
ESCHENBACH   PHILADELPHIA

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 05:50:17 AM
Quote from: Greg on October 03, 2009, 07:25:33 PM
See, that's why I'm confused why I don't I never quite got Beethoven, even though I keep on giving him a try....

When I was your age, the Classical era composers (Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven) did nothing for me either. Perhaps you'll experience the Beethoven revelation a little later in life like I did. In the meantime, there's no shortage of music to enjoy  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 04, 2009, 07:14:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 04:02:27 AM
These are the Sixths I own... ...Favorites in bold


Kubelik DG   
Kubelik Audite   
Bernstein DG   
Bernstein Sony
Abbado BPh      
Boulez DG   
Sinopoli DG
Gielen Haenssler
Zander Telarc
Rattle EMI
MTT SFSM
Mitropoulos WDRSO
Barbirolli EMI   
Karajan DG
Mackerras BBCMag
Jansons I LSO Live
Jansons II RCO Live
Bertini EMI
Chailly Decca
Zinman RCA
Neumann Supraphon
Gergiev LSO Live
Haitink CSO   Live
Fischer BFO
Eschenbach Ondine
Kondrashin Melodiya
Levi Telarc
Szell Sony
Piano 4H MDG

Why & how will be revealed during Mahler Month on WETA, when I'll post 30 articles on my favorite Mahler recordings--one for each day.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 08:03:02 AM
My favorites (in no particular order) are Boulez, Sanderling, Gielen, Bernstein (VPO) for the 6th (hey notice the first three are in the same style, but the last one is completely different? :D it's just so compelling that I love it even though it's not the usual style that I like).  I have not heard quite everything on Jens list, but I've also heard recordings not on his list so I guess it evens out. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 08:06:41 AM
I'm going to guess Jens bold ones are because: Barbirolli for reversing the movements (and making it work), Zander for having three hammer blows with an explanation of why they are there and where they go, and the others for being stylistically independent of each other (thus covering the interpretative space) and noted, excellent performances.  Am I warm Jens? :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 04, 2009, 09:27:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 08:06:41 AM
I'm going to guess Jens bold ones are because: Barbirolli for reversing the movements (and making it work), Zander for having three hammer blows with an explanation of why they are there and where they go, and the others for being stylistically independent of each other (thus covering the interpretative space) and noted, excellent performances.  Am I warm Jens? :)

If you snuggle up with your favorite blanket, you are...  ;D

1.) Barbirolli didn't reverse the movements, his engineers, when transferring it to CD, did. And that liberty on their part has already been fixed with the latest release.
1.1.) It is true that I prefer Scherzo-Adagio, but I don't need to be convinced that "it works". I think it works naturally and better than Adagio-Scherzo, the "correct" order.

2.) Zander has much more than just three hammer blows (he also includes two, for that matter). He pulls the tempi a bit much, but all in all he manages to kick ass.
And yes, it also contains his best lecture of the ones he's recorded/given so far, which is a bonus that influences my decision. (Incidentally I think the sound of the hammerblows is even better on the lecture-disc than the actual performance.)

Fischer and Karajan belong to the 'soft' Mahler 6th approach. I prefer 'rough', but those two are too darn good to ignore. The rest is all drooling, wild-eyed frenzy. Well, Eschenbach is a bit better behaved, but at least he tries; one of the few recent conductors, Zander apart, who does.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on October 04, 2009, 10:13:52 AM
Quote from: Greg on October 03, 2009, 07:25:33 PM
See, that's why I'm confused why I don't I never quite got Beethoven, even though I keep on giving him a try.

A little secret between you and I, Greg:  Not everyone likes Beethoven!   ;D

Another fact:  Not everyone thinks Bach is actually God.  0:)

:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on October 04, 2009, 10:20:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 04:02:27 AM
These are the Sixths I own (copied and pasted from my master list--sorry for the caps). Favorites in bold (Zander for including the third hammerblow, which makes his Finale a must hear). My favorite Andante is Karajan's--the most beautiful recording he ever made but not stinting on the drama either. Sinopoli's is stark and very slow (almost 20  minutes long). He finds an almost unbearable sadness in the music--which, if you can stand the pain, is very compelling.

I find Tennstedt's Sixth (and Eschenbach's) rather special but haven't lived with either long enough to form a definite opinion. They may deserve a mention in bold too eventually  ;)  Actually, there are very few Sixths I don't like. Boulez and Bertini don't do anything for me. Neumann I can take or leave.

SZELL           CLEVELAND
BERNSTEIN        VIENNA
BERNSTEIN           NEW YORK
SOLTI           CHICAGO
KARAJAN   BERLIN PHIL
T.SANDERLING   ST PETERSBURG PHIL
BARBIROLLI   NEW PHILH
ZANDER           PHILHARMONIA
BOULEZ           VIENNA
BERTINI           KÖLNER RSO
MAAZEL           VIENNA
TENNSTEDT   LPO
CHAILLY           CONCERTGEBOUW
KONDRASHIN   LENINGRAD PHIL
SINOPOLI   PHILHARMONIA
NEUMANN           CZECH PHIL
LEVI                   ATLANTA
DOHNÁNYI           CLEVELAND
RATTLE           CBSO
RATTLE           BERLIN PHIL
GIELEN           SWR BADEN
MITROPOULOS   PHILHARMONIC
ESCHENBACH   PHILADELPHIA

Sarge

Thanks Sarge.  Two Andante movements I've heard recently were Eschenbach/Philadelphia, and Gergiev/LSO.  Both didn't hold a candle to Tennstedt/LPO.  Both of the other ones seemed too short and too rushed, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on October 04, 2009, 10:22:07 AM
I think I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again:

Does anyone actually prefer the Andante-Scherzo order for Symphony No. 6?  ;D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: offbeat on October 04, 2009, 10:33:58 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 04, 2009, 10:22:07 AM
I think I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again:

Does anyone actually prefer the Andante-Scherzo order for Symphony No. 6?  ;D


for me definitely NO!!!!
the andante is for me is one of Mahlers most inspired slow movements -totally beautiful and feel after the manic marching of the first movement and the cynical sneering of the Scherzo - the andante stands out as an island of uneasy calm before the death knell of the massive finale -and of course this order is what im used to  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ChamberNut on October 04, 2009, 10:43:57 AM
Quote from: offbeat on October 04, 2009, 10:33:58 AM
for me definitely NO!!!!
the andante is for me is one of Mahlers most inspired slow movements -totally beautiful and feel after the manic marching of the first movement and the cynical sneering of the Scherzo - the andante stands out as an island of uneasy calm before the death knell of the massive finale -and of course this order is what im used to  ;D

I couldn't have expressed this any better myself!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Keemun on October 04, 2009, 11:54:04 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 04, 2009, 10:22:07 AM
I think I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again:

Does anyone actually prefer the Andante-Scherzo order for Symphony No. 6?  ;D



Not me.  I like being able to skip the first two movements and just play the last two, (Andante and Finale).  ;D  Even when I listen to the entire symphony, I prefer the Scherzo as the second movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on October 04, 2009, 12:08:18 PM
Quote from: Keemun on October 04, 2009, 11:54:04 AM
I like being able to skip the first two movements and just play the last two, (Andante and Finale).  ;D 

Cheater!

;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 12:48:16 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 04, 2009, 07:14:33 AM
Why & how will be revealed during Mahler Month on WETA, when I'll post 30 articles on my favorite Mahler recordings--one for each day.

Really looking forward to that, Jens.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 04, 2009, 06:52:15 PM
I find the Bongartz 6 hard to beat.  Quite similar to Barbirolli in gruffness, deliberation and grandeur, but without the yearning and the affection. Those qualities are replaced by a kind of violent nihilism. He is mean and tough beyond description. This is intimidating listening.

Jens, I've always found the Haitink 8th one I'm happy to return to. The sound is too distant, but it flows and doesn't sound like a collage. I also like the Colin Davis BRSO recording. Another 'honest' reading, with somewhat better soloists and in better sound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: secondwind on October 08, 2009, 05:19:09 PM
Well, I'm easing slowly into my Mahler addiction.  Today was Symphony No. 4.  (BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra; Valdine Anderson, soprano; Ion Marin conducting, for those of you who keep track of such things.)  I am finding the orchestration pretty incredible.  I'll listen to this one again tomorrow.  Today was listening-while-cooking.  Tomorrow will be listening-while-driving.  It's too bad I can't do listening-while-reading, but I really can't--they seem to take too much of the same kinds of attention.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on October 20, 2009, 12:39:12 AM
http://mahlerarchives.net/

Quote[T]he Mahler Archives, the online database created and maintained by The Chicago Mahlerites and the Colorado MahlerFest for the benefits of the global Mahlerian community.

The archives contain Mahlerian gems such as scholarly studies on the musicological aspects of Mahler's works, rare interviews with prominent Mahler experts, obscure historical facts, lectures given at various symposia, and interpretive discussion by various conductors.

Please click on the Archives button on the left to directly access the database. We encourage you to check back often as new articles are added frequently.

That last sentence should be taken with a pinch of salt as it has been over five years since the website was last updated. There are some dead links, as well. Otherwise it contains quite a few articles on Mahler and his compositions, many of them available as PDF files.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 20, 2009, 12:44:57 AM
The Hurwitzer goes all gooey over Alan Gilbert's brand new M9:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12455

Anyone heard it yet?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 20, 2009, 02:59:24 PM
Quote from: opus106 on October 20, 2009, 12:39:12 AM
That last sentence should be taken with a pinch of salt as it has been over five years since the website was last updated. There are some dead links, as well.
Maybe they all died.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 20, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
Quote from: Contents Under Pressure on October 20, 2009, 12:44:57 AM
The Hurwitzer goes all gooey over Alan Gilbert's brand new M9:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12455

Anyone heard it yet?

5.46$ for downloads at eclassical (http://www.eclassical.com/eclassic/eclassical?&page=record_list&cd_nr=BIS1710&method=showpage). You can sample bits from each movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 20, 2009, 10:20:48 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 20, 2009, 04:39:12 PM
5.46$ for downloads at eclassical (http://www.eclassical.com/eclassic/eclassical?&page=record_list&cd_nr=BIS1710&method=showpage). You can sample bits from each movement.

Also available for 4 credits on e-music. I have got it queued up my next month's allowance. the samples there do sound interesting indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 20, 2009, 11:58:06 PM
Quote from: Contents Under Pressure on October 20, 2009, 12:44:57 AM
The Hurwitzer goes all gooey over Alan Gilbert's brand new M9:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12455


Did he write the liner notes?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 21, 2009, 05:28:02 PM
Quote from: papy on October 20, 2009, 10:20:48 PM
Also available for 4 credits on e-music. I have got it queued up my next month's allowance. the samples there do sound interesting indeed.

I've never tried e-music. Do you recommend ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 22, 2009, 12:00:50 AM
Hi Andre

I don't know which type of schemes they offer on your side of the pond but this is what i get :

- £17.99 per 30 days for 50 credits i.e. £0.36 per track

- This is regardless of length. You'll pay 1 credit whether it is for a 2 minutes gymnopedie or the 1st movement of beethoven's 9th

- it is also dependant in how many tracks the CD is split. If you find a naxos CD you wanted with 20 short tracks/credits, it is not worth considering, get the CD instead, so there's a bit of pondering to do in that respect. Symphony CDs are therefore more of a bargain than shorter chamber or piano  works.

- tracks are re-downloadable for a certain period of time. If you download fails halfway, you can always relaunch it from scratch.

- the bitrate varying beetween 180 & 200+ kbps, so more or less acceptable

- I have personnally found the search facility a bit clumsy as it is dependant on how well the CD's have been encoded/tagged...so it can be a bit awkward at the search stage. It may also need some retagging at your end for your own classification/convenience.

- some major albums are not listed (e.g. not seen any DG albums there), but still have quite a choice (naxos, Chandos, Harmonia Mundi...)

- I think it is at its advantage when used as an introductory tool to a work or a composer, as you can get an album right there and for good value. Also worth considering to feed the multiple recordings cravings, whatever yours are !  ;D

- If you are not concerned about getting the CD in the first place, it is very quickly paid for. One example from last month : I got Eschanbach's Mahler Second for 5 credits so £1.80 - it is worth £19.59 on Amazon UK so that was my subsciption recovered already.

- you can upgrade/downgrade your subscription type or cancel it at any time.

Overall, not necessarily ideal but a handy option to have nonetheless.

They normally have a 14-day trial period with 25 free credits available. you might as well give it a go and see if their offering suits your needs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 22, 2009, 06:14:19 AM
Many thanks, Papy! This is a complete, practical guide that will definitely help me figure things out  :D.

I'll probably scan the listings of the site to see if I can make a one month subscription and use all those credits. I suppose you lose them after the subscription is over? Do they carry over into the next 30-day period if you renew ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 22, 2009, 07:36:19 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 22, 2009, 06:14:19 AM
I'll probably scan the listings of the site to see if I can make a one month subscription and use all those credits. I suppose you lose them after the subscription is over? Do they carry over into the next 30-day period if you renew ?

I am pretty sure they don't carry over to the next 30-day period. They haven't been long enough on my account for me to find out so far  ;D

oh and thread duty : Plenty of Resurrections can be found there  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Franco on October 22, 2009, 07:48:40 AM
They do not carry over, which is why I cancelled my account (not so easy to do: do not "suspend" it, you have to re-up for a month if you choose to cancel it later, unless you call and complain like I did) - if you don't plan on buying 30 tracks a month, think carefully before signing up.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 23, 2009, 03:27:43 PM
I'l lmake sure I read the fine prints  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 23, 2009, 04:52:58 PM
Am putting the final touches on the three (!!!) complete Mahler cycles that WETA will play in November. This will twice include "Das Lied von der Erde" and trice the complete 10th Symphony. Now I just have to make sure that the necessary recordings are at the station.

One cycle will be "American", another one of personal favorites, and a third one will be 'integral'. (Seeing that it includes a 10th, that limits it to four cycles, no?)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 26, 2009, 03:57:08 AM
the Mahler releases just keep on comin'

Zinman's M7 has just appeared - I've read a couple of (mostly positive) reviews. Any1 heard it yet?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 26, 2009, 05:16:18 AM
Quote from: Contents Under Pressure on October 26, 2009, 03:57:08 AM
the Mahler releases just keep on comin'

Zinman's M7 has just appeared - I've read a couple of (mostly positive) reviews. Any1 heard it yet?

Yep... it's pretty good. Best 7th on SACD, in any case (MTT, Gergiev.. what else?). But ultimately not impressive or 'special'. So far, only his 3rd I have really taken to. (Haven't heard the 6th yet, I believe, but all the others. Good cycle... sturdy, soft, genteel. Opposite of his Beethoven, in some ways.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 04:32:04 AM
Mahler Month is upon us!

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=966 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=966)

http://www.weta.org/fm/features/month (http://www.weta.org/fm/features/month)



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2009, 05:57:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 04:32:04 AM
Mahler Month is upon us!
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=966 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=966)

About your choices for the American cycle: You missed an all-American combination: Levine in Chicago or Philadelphia. And where's Lenny and the New York Phil? Surely they should have been given at least one spot: the First or Third perhaps? Or the DG Second? And there's too much MTT (DavidRoss may disagree  ;D ) Those are the only quibbles I have. Listeners are going to hear some great performances.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on November 01, 2009, 05:58:03 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=683.0;attach=21735;image)


What is the significance of the peacocks? :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 06:06:59 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2009, 05:57:16 AM
About your choices for the American cycle: You missed an all-American combination: Levine in Chicago or Philadelphia. And where's Lenny and the New York Phil? Surely they should have been given at least one spot: the First or Third perhaps? Or the DG Second? And there's too much MTT (DavidRoss may disagree  ;D ) Those are the only quibbles I have. Listeners are going to hear some great performances.

Sarge

None of Levine's US efforts, save the 4th, are in print. (Neither is Salonen, but it was when I wrote that...)
I am aware that the "most" American of all combos, Lennie-NY isn't present, but none of the recordings made the cut. Still think it's a great complete cycle...
There isn't too much MTT in those three instances, because those are the strong points with MTT. (His 1st is also very good.) It might seem, but doesn't follow, from his triple-presence, that he's *so* much better than the rest... no, probably not. But wonderful sounding recordings very passionately played they are. And I don't mind featuring new, current Mahler efforts, as opposed to the staid and true. Those are my thoughts for having it assembled this way, in any case.

For the "Choice Cycle" I was less concerned with picking new performances... only 'the best' (where available and not American, that is).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 06:08:54 AM
Quote from: opus106 on November 01, 2009, 05:58:03 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=683.0;attach=21735;image)


What is the significance of the peacocks? :)

Pretty.

They are part of the typical type (=font)-ornamentation of the time... decorative elements. There will be a different font from Mahler's time (and slightly later) heading each subsequent Mahler post... part of the attempt to get a bit a bit beyond just the text and the recordings.
Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 04:32:04 AM
Mahler Month is upon us!

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=966 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=966)

http://www.weta.org/fm/features/month (http://www.weta.org/fm/features/month)




Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2009, 06:13:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 06:06:59 AM
None of Levine's US efforts, save the 4th, are in print. (Neither is Salonen, but it was when I wrote that...)


Being in print, was that a self-imposed restriction or one WETA asked for?

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 06:16:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2009, 06:13:36 AM

Being in print, was that a self-imposed restriction or one WETA asked for?

Sarge

Self-imposed. But "in print" becomes an ever more fuzzy concept, especially with ArkivCDs available. In the case of the M8 (Ozawa, Boston -- the only American 'intrusion' into the "Choice Cycle") I'm even actively ignoring it because the performance is simply too good not to be heard. (But in this case it's actually cheaper to get it shipped from Japan on one CD than from Arkiv in the old, two-CD(R) version.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wendell_E on November 01, 2009, 09:09:23 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 04:32:04 AM
Mahler Month is upon us!

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=966 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=966)


QuoteMichael Tilson Thomas and the San Francisco Orchestra are represented with the next two symphonies (including Helen Hunt-Lieberson in the Second Symphony)

Helen Hunt-Lieberson?   :(  It's Lorraine (and no hyphen).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 09:29:08 AM
Quote from: Wendell_E on November 01, 2009, 09:09:23 AM
Helen Hunt-Lieberson?   :(  It's Lorraine (and no hyphen).

Obviously my mind was elsewhere... Mea culpa.  ;D
(http://www.hollywood-celebrity-pictures.com/Celebrities/Helen-Hunt/Helen-Hunt-6.JPG)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on November 01, 2009, 09:34:24 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2009, 06:08:54 AM
They are part of the typical type (=font)-ornamentation of the time... decorative elements. There will be a different font from Mahler's time (and slightly later) heading each subsequent Mahler post... part of the attempt to get a bit a bit beyond just the text and the recordings.

Nice touch. Looking forward to the rest of Mahler Month. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2009, 10:50:27 AM
Quote from: opus106 on November 01, 2009, 09:34:24 AMLooking forward to the rest of Mahler Month. :)

Me too. Especially looking forward to finding out Jens' choices. It give us an opporunity for smug smiles and congratulations (if his choices mirror our own) or hair pulling and curses if the choices go agin us  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 02, 2009, 12:06:17 PM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/MahlerMonth_at_WETA_Condens.png)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/MahlerAmerican-Cycle1.png)

Week 1, American Cycle
(small changes made: 3rd now with Salonen, DLvdE now with MTT)

Tuesday, November 3
Symphony #3 (Los Angeles Philharmonic/Esa-Pekka Salonen)

Wednesday, November 4
Symphony #1 (Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Bernard Haitink)

Thursday, November 5
Symphony #4 (Los Angeles Philharmonic/Esa-Pekka Salonen)

Symphony #5 (Vienna Philharmonic/Leonard Bernstein)

Friday, November 6
Symphony #10 (Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra/Jesús López-Cobos)

Saturday, November 7
Symphony #6 (Philadelphia Orchestra/Christoph Eschenbach)
Das Lied von der Erde (San Francisco Symphony/Michael Tilson Thomas)
Symphony #8 (Vienna Philharmonic/Leonard Bernstein)

Sunday, November 8
Symphony #2 (San Francisco Symphony/Michael Tilson Thomas)
Symphony #7 (Cleveland Orchestra/Pierre Boulez)
Symphony #9 (San Francisco Symphony/Michael Tilson Thomas)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on November 02, 2009, 12:32:23 PM
Gilbert Kaplan is missing for the Second...  >:D

*pulls hair* ;D



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 02, 2009, 01:00:47 PM
Quote from: papy on November 02, 2009, 12:32:23 PM
Gilbert Kaplan is missing for the Second...  >:D

*pulls hair* ;D

Very droll.  ;D

P.S. Kaplan has made two fine recordings. They have their merits... the earlier one more so than the latter, perhaps... but there is nothing in them that at least one real conductor hasn't done better. Kaplan will, in any case, get some mention in my piece on the 2nd.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on November 02, 2009, 01:08:00 PM







<----- Not in a kidding mood...Kaplan's missing....


;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 03, 2009, 01:43:50 AM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/MahlerMonth_at_WETA_Condens.png)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Gustav_Mahler_Introduction.png)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=745 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=745)


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 03, 2009, 09:14:33 AM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/MahlerMonth_at_WETA_Condens.png)

Today, 4:06 pm EST -- a little teaser:
Gustav Mahler
Symphony #3 in D Minor, 2nd movement
San Francisco Symphony | Michael Tilson Thomas

Then, 9:00 pm, the whole thing:
Gustav Mahler
Symphony #3 in D Minor
Los Angeles Philharmonic | Esa-Pekka Salonen (conductor) | Anna Larsson (alto) | Women of The Los Angeles Master Chorale | The Paulist Boy Choristers of California

Listen live: http://www.weta.org/fm/listenlive (http://www.weta.org/fm/listenlive)

Playlist: http://www.weta.org/fm/playlists/classicalweta (http://www.weta.org/fm/playlists/classicalweta)

Ramblings on Mahler: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/ (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on November 03, 2009, 09:32:14 AM
Will there be a re-broadcast at a more reasonable time for us non-Americans? :) ;) Unless I'm utterly depressed, I don't think I would be in a mood to listen to Mahler at half-past-seven in the morning. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 03, 2009, 09:46:51 AM
Quote from: opus106 on November 03, 2009, 09:32:14 AM
Will there be a re-broadcast at a more reasonable time for us non-Americans? :) ;) Unless I'm utterly depressed, I don't think I would be in a mood to listen to Mahler at half-past-seven in the morning. ;D

Nor I. Wait until a better hour, plop in a CD, and think about WETA, instead.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on November 03, 2009, 09:51:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 03, 2009, 09:46:51 AM
Nor I. Wait until a better hour, plop in a CD, and think about WETA, instead.  ;D

Oh, that sounds better. Screw the whole interpretation thing and the reviewer's selections. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on November 03, 2009, 09:53:43 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 02, 2009, 12:06:17 PM
Friday, November 6
Symphony #10 (Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra/Jesús López-Cobos)

Unfortunately, I can't access the WETA site through work.  Just wondering....for the completed 10th, any consideration for Daniel Harding and the Vienna Phil.?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 03, 2009, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: Brahmsian on November 03, 2009, 09:53:43 AM
Unfortunately, I can't access the WETA site through work.  Just wondering....for the completed 10th, any consideration for Daniel Harding and the Vienna Phil.?
Indeed. For lack of access to a version I prefer (Barshai, as you will find out), it was Harding that was chosen for the 10th in the "Choice Cycle".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 04, 2009, 02:02:13 AM
Now up:

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.1 (Part 1) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1000)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_1.png)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Schwind_BegraebnisDesJaeger.png)

Also:

Today in Mahler:

Today, 100 years ago, Gustav Mahler conducted his first concert as Music Director of the New York Philharmonic at Carnegie Hall. On the program were Beethoven's Consecration of the House Overture and Eroica Symphony, Liszt's Symphonic Poem No.6, and Richard Strauss' Till Eulenspiegel.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 05, 2009, 06:53:28 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 04, 2009, 02:02:13 AM
Now up:

Also:

Today in Mahler:

Today, 100 years ago, Gustav Mahler conducted his first concert as Music Director of the New York Philharmonic at Carnegie Hall. On the program were Beethoven's Consecration of the House Overture and Eroica Symphony, Liszt's Symphonic Poem No.6, and Richard Strauss' Till Eulenspiegel.


Jens, I'm mightily impressed by your recordings assessment. Kudos ! Of course it helps that your reviews go along the lines of my own tastes ;D . I'll try to get the Kubelik Audite disc. I think it would fit in with my current views on the symphony. I prefer the 'nature-drenched', eyes wide open and openness to sentiment that I hear in Kubelik DG, Colin Davis BRSO (Novalis) and Walter Sony versions (I always go gaga over that one). Maybe the Haitink CSO would do me some good, too. I haven't heard his Amsterdam recordings in decades, but if memory serves, the early seventies one is as cool as water from a mountain brook.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 06, 2009, 04:31:51 AM
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1037

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.1 (Part 2)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1037)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_1_2.png)

The font used in the title is "Arnold Boecklin Regular"

The "American Mahler Cycle" continues today with the Scherzo from the Fifth Symphony as a teaser at 9:06am and then with the whole symphony played at 9PM. For more and daily details check out the online playlist.

http://www.weta.org/fm/playlists/classicalweta (http://www.weta.org/fm/playlists/classicalweta)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 06, 2009, 07:39:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 06, 2009, 04:31:51 AM
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.1 (Part 2)

Nice to see Judd get a mention. I just listened to clips of the Suitner. They sound marvelous. I must order it. I especially like the tempo of the second movement. I notice there's a Suitner recording of the Second also on Berlin Classics. Have you heard it?

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 06, 2009, 08:19:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 06, 2009, 07:39:58 AM
... I notice there's a Suitner recording of the Second also on Berlin Classics. Have you heard it?

Sarge

I have not, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 07, 2009, 03:02:42 AM
Today on WETA:

Mahler Month
9:06 am
Gustav Mahler
Symphony #6 in A Minor
Philadelphia Orchestra | Christoph Eschenbach (conductor)
Ondine 1084

(A little early for the 6th, if you ask me...)

Mahler Month
4:03 pm
Gustav Mahler
Das Lied von der Erde
San Francisco Symphony | Michael Tilson Thomas (conductor) | Stuart Skelton (tenor) | Thomas Hampson (baritone)
San Francisco Symphony 0019

Mahler Month
9:00 pm
Gustav Mahler
Symphony #8
Vienna Philharmonic | Leonard Bernstein (conductor) | Margaret Price (soprano) | Judith Blegen (soprano) | Gerti Zeumer (soprano) | Trudeliese Schmidt (alto) | Agnes Baltsa (also) | Kenneth Riegel (tenor) | Hermann Prey (baritone) | José van Dam (bass) | Vienna Singverein | Vienna Boys Choir | Vienna State Opera Chorus
DG 435.102
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on November 07, 2009, 03:10:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 07, 2009, 03:02:42 AM
Today on WETA:

Mahler Month
9:06 am
Gustav Mahler
Symphony #6 in A Minor
Philadelphia Orchestra | Christoph Eschenbach (conductor)
Ondine 1084

(A little early for the 6th, if you ask me...)

I'm not complaining. 0:) I'm looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on November 07, 2009, 04:27:06 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 07, 2009, 03:02:42 AM
Today on WETA:

Mahler Month
9:06 am
Gustav Mahler
Symphony #6 in A Minor
Philadelphia Orchestra | Christoph Eschenbach (conductor)
Ondine 1084

(A little early for the 6th, if you ask me...)

Quote from: The WETA peopleOnline Stream Downtime

The online Classical WETA "Listen Live" stream will not be available from approximately 10:00pm on Friday, November 6 until approximately 10:00am on Saturday, November 7 due to a planned power outtage. Thank you for your patience.

Say it ain't true.   :'(  >:(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 07, 2009, 04:46:04 AM
Quote from: opus106 on November 07, 2009, 04:27:06 AM
Say it ain't true.   :'(  >:(

I was wondering why nothing was working, earlier today... crimmeny.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on November 07, 2009, 05:10:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 07, 2009, 04:46:04 AM
I was wondering why nothing was working, earlier today... crimmeny.

Hey, it works! Listening on the Windows Media stream. A few minutes ago, there was NPR news and I thought it was "in place" of the classical one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on November 08, 2009, 05:07:32 AM
I am going to try to hit this for the first time since my Mahler breakthrough.  Only about 40 minutes or so from the house:

http://www.mahlerfest.org/index.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on November 08, 2009, 08:54:24 AM
Quote from: Bogey on November 08, 2009, 05:07:32 AM
I am going to try to hit this for the first time since my Mahler breakthrough.  Only about 40 minutes or so from the house:

http://www.mahlerfest.org/index.html

Wow, this looks like an awesome festival Bill!  Wish we had a yearly 'Mahlerfest'! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 08, 2009, 10:17:25 AM

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1063

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.2 (Part 1)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_2.png)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1063)

               (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Fischpredigt-des-Heiligen-Antonius-in-Padua-300x242.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 08, 2009, 10:35:10 AM
Keep the reviews coming, Jens ! The Second has been long in becoming a favourite. I thoroughly disliked it for almost two decades ! Now I consider it one of his most original works. It may lack the sheer structural perfection of the 5th and 9th and the easy naturalness of the 4th, but in the right hands it's an unforgettable experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on November 08, 2009, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: Brahmsian on November 08, 2009, 08:54:24 AM
Wow, this looks like an awesome festival Bill!  Wish we had a yearly 'Mahlerfest'! :)

I rolled out #3 today for three listens (just finishing up my third), Ray.  One of them was at the supermarket, as the Mrs. loathes grocery shopping, while I do not mind it.  Needless to say I ran into many other carts as my attention was not on the shopping.  I believe I will make Mahler part of my weekly shopping trip.  Mahler at the Market!  ;)

It seems that close together repeat listenings have worked for me.  It was awesome for the 9th and this has been as enjoyable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on November 08, 2009, 07:08:41 PM
I'm currently listening to Mahler 7 via an unknown Scherchen recording (1h 9.5m, so probably not the Toronto one which is apparently 1h 5m). I should probably buy a CD of this conductor/piece combo, as the creaky orchestra, manic tempo changes and dodgy sound quality really underline the macabre and grotesque qualities of this symphony. It's strange - like seeing a horror film in black and white opposed to colour.

I am beginning to understand a little more of why I like this symphony so much, but even these new findings make me wonder whether the accusations of formal incoherence are objectively true. The first and final movements are fine - perhaps the finale may seem a little unusual given the greater weight Mahler places on his final movements in certain other symphonies, and this allowing for some emotional ambiguity in the 7th (which we cannot have, of course, everything must be tragic or happy or pointed out to us :P).

Then the inner movements are just very strange. Not strictly in the odd nocturnal and chamber-like calm of the Nachtmusik movements, but in how large they are - getting towards the length of the opening and closing movements (depending on recording, I could imagine a conductor playing the Nachtmusik movements gently, but the opening and closing ones brisquely, bringing them even closer in length). Then there is the scherzo heart of the symphony, which is simply very small compared to the other movements.

The Nachtmusik movements simply do not work as interludes - they are too substantial, and then there is the question of whether dividing them with a scherzo actually works, or whether Mahler could've constructed the mother of all andante movements with them. While perfect in symmetry from the centre outwards, listening through the symphony does slightly feel as though you are getting lost in detours rather than travelling by the direct route - which could add to the disjointed, odd mood of the work and explain further why some still have difficulties with it. Those qualities also allow me to get lost in the work in a way I cannot with any other Mahler symphony. It's neat...

Also, hail Mahler as an insomina treatment. I'm not tired, but at least entertained.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on November 08, 2009, 07:41:20 PM
If you'll excuse the Americanism, I think you're on to something.

I've always considered Mahler's 7th a 'journey' symphony, the Nachtmusik coming and going like one's surroundings when you're lost, and trying not to be found: one moment you're in a park, then you're walking down an unfamiliar street, and so on. What leads me to this interpretation is the disjointed awe of the final movement, like finding something you didn't realise you were looking for; but your points about the middle movements' proportions compared to the whole might be an even better indicator of its 'getting lostness'.


(I somehow harbour the hope that one of those overlong-yet-strangely-elegant German words exists for 'getting lostness', ending in '-eit'. ;D)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 09, 2009, 03:08:49 AM
Quote from: Renfield on November 08, 2009, 07:41:20 PM
If you'll excuse the Americanism, I think you're on to something.

I've always considered Mahler's 7th a 'journey' symphony, the Nachtmusik coming and going like one's surroundings when you're lost, and trying not to be found: one moment you're in a park, then you're walking down an unfamiliar street, and so on. What leads me to this interpretation is the disjointed awe of the final movement, like finding something you didn't realise you were looking for; but your points about the middle movements' proportions compared to the whole might be an even better indicator of its 'getting lostness'.


(I somehow harbour the hope that one of those overlong-yet-strangely-elegant German words exists for 'getting lostness', ending in '-eit'. ;D)

You mean Verlorenheitsgefühlsstimmung ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on November 09, 2009, 03:26:06 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 09, 2009, 03:08:49 AM
You mean Verlorenheitsgefühlsstimmung ?

:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 09, 2009, 08:48:59 AM
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1090

Maybe I Do Love Mahler: The "International Cycle" on Classical WETA

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/International-Cycle.png)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1090)

Today begins the "International" of the three Gustav Mahler Symphony Cycles that Classical WETA plays as part of Mahler Month. Made up of some of my absolute favorite recordings—to the extend they were in print or available. It is, a Leonard Bernstein appearance in Das Lied von der Erde apart, a Western- and Central European cycle... although that is not to take away from the Aisan and Russian contributions to the Mahler discography, which I will touch upon in the accompanying articles published here, this month....

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on November 09, 2009, 10:50:47 AM
Quote from: Lethe on November 08, 2009, 07:08:41 PM
I'm currently listening to Mahler 7 via an unknown Scherchen recording (1h 9.5m, so probably not the Toronto one which is apparently 1h 5m). I should probably buy a CD of this conductor/piece combo, as the creaky orchestra, manic tempo changes and dodgy sound quality really underline the macabre and grotesque qualities of this symphony. It's strange - like seeing a horror film in black and white opposed to colour.
That is the Toronto one; which is 69 minutes. The VSO one is about 72, and the VSOO studio about 78.

Music and Arts should really reissue the Toronto recording; it's the most extreme of the three Scherchen recordings and is thusfar my favourite non-canonical approach to the symphony. I think we're so familiar with Mahler that we forget the value of music sounding dangerous (something I love in Scherchen's Haydn and Beethoven too).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 09, 2009, 06:56:37 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 09, 2009, 03:08:49 AM
You mean Verlorenheitsgefühlsstimmung ?

Lets' see: verloren = lost, gefühl = feeling,  and stimmung =  mood. What's 'heits' standing for ?

QuoteI've always considered Mahler's 7th a 'journey' symphony,

Lethe, Renfield: You ARE on to something here: absolutely right ! The 7th is THE mahler 'journey' symphony. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2009, 03:14:44 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 09, 2009, 06:56:37 PM
Lets' see: verloren = lost, gefühl = feeling,  and stimmung =  mood. What's 'heits' standing for ?  

"Heit" tacked on the end of a word turns it into a noun: verloren is an adjective; Verlorenheit the noun. You would add s (heits) if you tack on another word like Jens did: Verlorenheitsgefühl.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 10, 2009, 01:38:27 PM
Wow ! So 'heits' has no meaning, only a grammatical function? what do we have, then? A 'feeling of being lost'? as in Ich bin der welt abhanden gekommen?

Mucho interesting. thanks, Sarge!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on November 11, 2009, 08:39:36 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 10, 2009, 01:38:27 PM
Wow! So 'heits' has no meaning, only a grammatical function? what do we have, then? A 'feeling of being lost'? as in Ich bin der welt abhanden gekommen?

Oh dear! This reminds me of an earlier discussion between yours truly & Sarge .... long time ago .... somewhere around springtime 2007, in this thread.
I'm still not sure if that song is relating towards 'a feeling of being lost'. Not in the end, that is. Before those final words, I think the the 'singer' was feeling lost in the Weltgetümmel of the 'normal' world: met der ich sonst viele Zeit verdorben.

But I remember that Sarge did not agree with that. He also came with a similarity between Rückert's lyrics and the Simon & Garfunkel song I am a rock.

Anyway, maybe my interpretation has got more to do with my own personality. In many cases one tends to understand lyrics/movies/music in a rather projectional way, I think. And, to be honest, I wouldn't feel lost within my heaven, my love and my song. It would give me a feeling of Unvergänglichkeit! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 12, 2009, 04:09:07 AM

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p= 1120

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.3 (Part 1)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_3_1.png)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1120)

The Third Symphony, Mahler's longest, has sublime moments and plenty of them, but it can be difficult to find your way to—and around—it: Its quilt of music is complicated and never just straight forward and clear-cut. It has two large outer movements around four smaller movements—the first movement alone takes over half an hour. In my traversing Mahler, only the Seventh was more stubborn in opening itself up to me. The titles that Mahler originally gave the movements, only to withdraw them later, don't offer much help. But the fear that knowing these titles might lead to misunderstanding the symphony is no longer given either, so there is no harm in listing them:

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Sy_3_Titles.png)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on November 12, 2009, 11:49:56 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2009, 03:14:44 AM
"Heit" tacked on the end of a word turns it into a noun: verloren is an adjective; Verlorenheit the noun. You would add s (heits) if you tack on another word like Jens did: Verlorenheitsgefühl.

Sarge

Actually, the 's' is a genitive 's', because the Gefühl belongs to the Verlorenheit, hence Verlorenheit has to be in the Genitive if you're making a compound noun.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 12, 2009, 03:44:09 PM
Rosa                       rosae
rosa                        rosae
rosa                        rosas
rosae                      rosarum
rosae                      rosis
rosas                      rosis

Ah, sweet memories of my youth :-*
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 13, 2009, 07:26:11 AM
Quote from: Mensch on November 12, 2009, 11:49:56 AM
Actually, the 's' is a genitive 's', because the Gefühl belongs to the Verlorenheit, hence Verlorenheit has to be in the Genitive if you're making a compound noun.  ;)

Cases suck  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on November 13, 2009, 07:56:10 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 12, 2009, 03:44:09 PM
Rosa                       rosae
rosa                        rosae
rosa                        rosas
rosae                      rosarum
rosae                      rosis
rosas                      rosis

Ah, sweet memories of my youth :-*

Now, if you'd go on and conjugate ferre, I'd be duly impressed. >:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 13, 2009, 03:30:54 PM
Quote from: Drasko on November 13, 2009, 07:56:10 AM
Now, if you'd go on and conjugate ferre, I'd be duly impressed. >:D

When in doubt, ask a friend (http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin/Grammar/Verbs/ferre.html)  :D

I'm not sure if this is the verb that gave the commonly used French expression 'sans coup férir' (litt: without a blow, meaning win without opposition from the enemy).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 13, 2009, 05:36:10 PM
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1138 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1138)



Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.3 (Part 2)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_3_2.png)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1138)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on November 14, 2009, 05:28:32 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 13, 2009, 03:30:54 PM
When in doubt, ask a friend (http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin/Grammar/Verbs/ferre.html)  :D

I'm not sure if this is the verb that gave the commonly used French expression 'sans coup férir' (litt: without a blow, meaning win without opposition from the enemy).

Oh, no Mr. Pastia that's incomplete, just naming the stems for perfect and participial won't do. We want the whole bloody lot (http://www.allverbs.com/cache/verbtables/9/F/Fero.shtml) $:)

Could be. The verb means to carry, but I've seen law students fall under it sans coup férir at latin exams.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 07:19:13 AM
Then I flunk :'(. I only had 3 years of Latin classes in high school. I was very good in vocabulary, reasonably good with the déclinaisons*, but sweated a lot when it came to verb conjugaisons*.  I'm quite rusted after almost 40 years...

* What are the english terms for those?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 07:26:20 AM
hate to disturb latin-class ("Cum portum plenum erat, Ceasar navigat in aqua"), but did anyone enjoy or at least read the Mahler articles??  ;) ???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on November 14, 2009, 07:44:18 AM
Quote from: Drasko on November 13, 2009, 07:56:10 AM
ferre

fero, tuli, latum, ferre... oh, the memories...!  8)

One can even find Latin declensions on the internet these days:
http://users.ser.sch.gr/statpapako/fero%20k%20feror.pdf (http://users.ser.sch.gr/statpapako/fero%20k%20feror.pdf)


Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 07:26:20 AM
hate to disturb latin-class ("Cum portum plenum erat, Ceasar navigat in aqua"), but did anyone enjoy ... the Mahler articles??  ;) ???

Immensely, Jens.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 07:59:27 AM
Of course, Jens ;). They are extremely well made and quite informative.

What did you make of Maureen Forrester in the Mehta 3rd? Hearing her in that work is one of my most cherished concert experiences. Did you listen to the Rögner version? I found that one so musical.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 08:36:08 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 07:59:27 AM
Of course, Jens ;). They are extremely well made and quite informative.

What did you make of Maureen Forrester in the Mehta 3rd? Hearing her in that work is one of my most cherished concert experiences. Did you listen to the Rögner version? I found that one so musical.

Don't have Roegner, "only" Kubelik DG, Kubelik Audite, Bernstein DG, Bernstein Sony, Abbado BPh, Abbado WPh, Boulez, Gielen, Zander, Rattle, MTT, Haitink RCO, Haitink Kristm.RCO, Mitrop. NY, Horenstein, Mehta LA, Salonen, Zinman, Gergiev, Kondrashin, Levine.

I just noticed that I didn't give my "Top 5" for the 3rd. Mehta makes the cut (as co-5th choice). Forrester is one of the finer (more unique, if you wish) aspects of the performance, but not her absolute best, perhaps.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2009, 08:53:26 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 07:26:20 AM
hate to disturb latin-class ("Cum portum plenum erat, Ceasar navigat in aqua"), but did anyone enjoy or at least read the Mahler articles??  ;) ???

Of course I've been reading your articles...which much interest, nods of agreement and the occasional gnashing of teeth and hair pulling. I have to say your Mahler 3 picks have me puzzled. Not a single recording you mention (nine in total, I believe) would be among my top six. Maybe it's a generational thing (you being the new kid on the block, me being a 50/60s era geezer). Excepting Kubelik, you don 't review any of the older recordings, many long considered classics by most Mahlerites. No Bernstein, Horenstein, Barbirolli, Mitropoulos or Haitink (his first recording with the Concertgebouw). Eight of your nine choices were released between 1995 and 2007. [Edit: actually all your picks fall into that time frame; the Kubelik was released in 2002 although recorded much earlier of course.] That's a very short span of time considering the stereo era began in the 50s and Mahler recording really took off in the 60s. In your opinion, new really is better?

As far as Abbado/Berlin being your first choice...wow. You and I really do have different taste in this music ;D  That's okay. We've done lists before in this forum; every list is different. No two individuals are ever going to choose the same recordings or have the same top preferences. I'm just surprised an earlier generation of Mahler conductors seems to have made so little impression on you.

I noticed one small mistake in your Abbado review. You wrote: "the Berlin audience sits in stunned awe"--that should be "London" audience. It's a live recording from the Royal Festival Hall.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 09:02:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2009, 08:53:26 AM
Of course I've been reading your articles...which much interest, nods of agreement and the occasional gnashing of teeth and hair pulling. I have to say your Mahler 3 picks have me puzzled. Not a single recording you mention (nine in total, I believe) would be among my top six. Maybe it's a generational thing (you being the new kid on the block, me being a 50/60s era geezer). Excepting Kubelik, you don 't review any of the older recordings, many long considered classics by most Mahlerites. No Bernstein, Horenstein, Barbirolli, Mitropoulos or Haitink (his first recording with the Concertgebouw). Eight of your nine choices were released between 1995 and 2007. That's a very short span of time considering the stereo era began in the 50s and Mahler recording really took off in the 60s. In your opinion, new really is better?

As far as Abbado/Berlin being your first choice...wow. You and I really do have different taste in this music ;D  That's okay. We've done lists before in this forum; every list is different. No two individuals are ever going to choose the same recordings or have the same top preferences. I'm just surprised an earlier generation of Mahler conductors seems to have made so little impression on you.

I noticed one small mistake in your Abbado review. You wrote: "the Berlin audience sits in stunned awe"--that should be "London" audience. It's a live recording from the Royal Festival Hall.

Sarge

Funny you mention that. Just a few minutes I added two more sentences to my 3/2 review in which I explain the absence of Horenstein et al.
When it comes to the Third, the answer is: Yes. Newer is better. Better playing, better singing, and very, very importantly: better sonics.
But generally I have noticed that my articles, the record-review core of which is several years old, tends to focus on new recordings. Sometimes purposefully (because the old stuff really isn't any better) but also because my exposure to new recordings was particularly strong at the time. The only Mitrop. I know is the New York recording. Worthless non-starter. I have three of the four commercially available Haitinks (not the BPh)... the last is indeed the best.
Thanks for catching the Abbado error. I should probably listen to that again, too (not with me to have re-checked)... what's not to like?

You will find a much broader range of recording dates for the other symphonies, most especially the 6th. (Where Mitrop./Cologne is one of the top-choices.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 14, 2009, 09:16:12 AM
Jens, if gorgeous sonics are your thing, you can't do better than the Rögner. It's jaw-droppingly natural and beautiful.

I agree with Forreste, she was slightly past her prime at the time - better under Haitink, still one of the most 'natural' versions ever made.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on November 14, 2009, 09:31:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2009, 08:53:26 AM
Excepting Kubelik, you don 't review any of the older recordings, many long considered classics by most Mahlerites. No Bernstein, Horenstein, Barbirolli, Mitropoulos or Haitink (his first recording with the Concertgebouw). Eight of your nine choices were released between 1995 and 2007. [Edit: actually all your picks fall into that time frame; the Kubelik was released in 2002 although recorded much earlier of course.] That's a very short span of time considering the stereo era began in the 50s and Mahler recording really took off in the 60s. In your opinion, new really is better?

I noticed the same thing. No Bruno Walter - who worked under Mahler and was a close friend! :o :)

Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 09:02:37 AM

When it comes to the Third, the answer is: Yes. Newer is better. Better playing, better singing, and very, very importantly: better sonics.

I believe we had a similar discussion on Bach cantata recordings...
Better sonics? Sure!  :) Better playing and singing in Mahler now than in the Old Days? Pure (excusez le mot) nonsense...IMO.

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 09:38:05 AM
Quote from: Que on November 14, 2009, 09:31:51 AM
I noticed the same thing. No Bruno Walter - who worked under Mahler and was a close friend! :o :)

I believe we had a similar discussion on Bach cantata recordings...
Better sonics? Sure!  :) Better playing and singing in Mahler now than in the Old Days? Pure (excusez le mot) nonsense...IMO.

You must separate interpretation from technical performance. A note missed is a note missed, and it's easy to tell.
You may well think that old interpretations are so superior to new ones, that they make up for all the shoddy playing... but that's not the argument I am making (or care to get into, for that matter). I've rarely heard a 3rd where better execution didn't also lead to a better result.

B.Walter Mahler 3rd???

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2009, 10:04:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 09:02:37 AM
When it comes to the Third, the answer is: Yes. Newer is better. Better playing, better singing, and very, very importantly: better sonics.

How about better conducting? conducting that goes both to the heart of music and has a unique point of view? You left that out. That's where we disagree. For me the conductor's vision is always going to trump playing, singing and sonics. I think that essentially explains our different choices. Many in the older generation had unique personalities whose take on the music was quite individual. And it was music they really believed in. They were pioneers. Today conductors play Mahler because it's expected of them, whether they believe in the music or not. Does Boulez believe? I don't know. He certainly waited long enough to begin programming Mahler.

QuoteAbbado...I should probably listen to that again, too (not with me to have re-checked)... what's not to like?

If Mahler conductors can be classified (e.g., the classical objectivists like Bertini and Szell; modernists like Gielen and Dohnányi; the emotional subjectivists like Bernstein, Barbirolli; the Mahler-Lite of Kubelik, Neumann and Segerstam; the weird interventionists Sinopoli and Maazel), Abbado is Mahler as Mush: the music smoothed out and polite; guaranteed to give no offense; nothing crude or vulgar allowed. It's especially true of his Berlin Phil recordings (an orchestra with no Mahler tradition). Mahler should be crude and vulgar at times; he should give offense. The power should be felt and believed. Abbado fails from the very beginning: Mahler's instructions say Kräftig. Entschieden. Instead Abbado and Berlin sound schwach und unentschieden. At least that's the way I hear it. Your ears may be, probably are, tuned differently ;)


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 10:13:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2009, 10:04:51 AM
How about better conducting? conducting that goes both to the heart of music and has a unique point of view? You left that out. That's where we disagree. For me the conductor's vision is always going to trump playing, singing and sonics. I think that essentially explains our different choices. Many in the older generation had unique personalities whose take on the music was quite individual. And it was music they really believed in. They were pioneers. Today conductors play Mahler because it's expected of them, whether they believe in the music or not. Does Boulez believe? I don't know. He certainly waited long enough to begin programming Mahler.

Well, that's because I didn't mention that part. I don't think the conducting/interpreting has gotten "better". That's not objectively determinable. Perhaps it goes some way in explaining my (lack of) understanding of the Third Symphony that there, more than anywhere else, I consider technical excellence to outweigh personal choices. Also: A lot of the early recordings of the Third I happen to find particularly unsuccessful.

QuoteIf Mahler conductors can be classified (e.g., the classical objectivists like Bertini and Szell; modernists like Gielen and Dohnányi; the emotional subjectivists like Bernstein, Barbirolli; the Mahler-Lite of Kubelik, Neumann and Segerstam; the weird interventionists Sinopoli and Maazel), Abbado is Mahler as Mush: the music smoothed out and polite; guaranteed to give no offense; nothing crude or vulgar allowed. It's especially true of his Berlin Phil recordings (an orchestra with no Mahler tradition). Mahler should be crude and vulgar at times; he should give offense. The power should be felt and believed. Abbado fails from the very beginning: Mahler's instructions say Kräftig. Entschieden. Instead Abbado and Berlin sound schwach und unentschieden. At least that's the way I hear it. Your ears may be, probably are, tuned differently ;)

The Berlin Phil has not a lot less Mahler tradition than the Vienna Phil. So one didn't play much Mahler until the 80s... and the other band did, but grudgingly.  ;D

Neither are the NYP or RCO in that respect. Or Munich, had they not neglected their Mahler tradition at the expense of a Bruckner-only tradition. I agree with Abbado, generally. I respect few conductors as much as C.A., but his Mahler I often find too %^&*(# boring. Too well behaved. Not unlike Jansons. Yawn. Or like Chailly, without the glorious glow. But in the Third... that's a little different. I like the understated approach to that Symphony. What makes a Sixth a failure can make a Third work for me. Perhaps you put more weight on the first movement(s), and I more on the last? Abbado's Berlin 6th? Yikes. His 4th? Nope.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on November 14, 2009, 12:50:26 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 09:38:05 AM
You must separate interpretation from technical performance. A note missed is a note missed, and it's easy to tell.
You may well think that old interpretations are so superior to new ones, that they make up for all the shoddy playing... but that's not the argument I am making (or care to get into, for that matter). I've rarely heard a 3rd where better execution didn't also lead to a better result.

B.Walter Mahler 3rd???

Sure, no Bruno Walter Mahler III.
But I also read your pieces on the 2st & 2nd symphonies - with interest, I might add! :)

So, the Old Masters and their orchestras dropped notes and their successors do not? I don't know... ::) What I do know however, is that recordings are much more "perfected" nowadays than they used to be.

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: Que on November 14, 2009, 12:50:26 PM
Sure, no Bruno Walter Mahler III.
But I also read your pieces on the 2st & 2nd symphonies - with interest, I might add! :)

So, the Old Masters and their orchestras dropped notes and their successors do not? I don't know... ::) What I do know however, is that recordings are much more "perfected" nowadays than they used to be.

Q

I believe I mentioned and recommended (of sorts) the Walter M1. And immediately this praise was singled out for ridicule at some other Mahler forum, where the Walter Columbia M1 was declared crap.
Can't win with the Mahlerites.   ;D


And yes, the orchestral standards--every individual player and the bodies as a whole--have increased, as have the soloistic ones, immensely over the years. From Schnabel to Pollini? That's from gaslight to halogen spots. I know people who prefer gaslight (romance!), but that's interpretation, not technical ability. Even more dramatic increases in sheer ability in chamber groups, esp. string quartets.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on November 15, 2009, 07:19:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 06:07:05 PM
From Schnabel to Pollini? That's from gaslight to halogen spots.

I would have preferred to stay neutral in this discussion, but do permit me to raise an eyebrow at the above.

I don't think expression is discrete from the concept of technical ability: and that's what a number of old recordings are distinguished by. I don't know about you, but I haven't heard, say, Furtwängler's level of orchestral phrasing, lately.

Or Barbirolli's, if you want a Mahler example that's not Walter or Klemperer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 15, 2009, 01:55:25 PM
Quote from: Renfield on November 15, 2009, 07:19:52 AM
I would have preferred to stay neutral in this discussion, but do permit me to raise an eyebrow at the above.

I don't think expression is discrete from the concept of technical ability: and that's what a number of old recordings are distinguished by. I don't know about you, but I haven't heard, say, Furtwängler's level of orchestral phrasing, lately.

Or Barbirolli's, if you want a Mahler example that's not Walter or Klemperer.

Furtwängler was a special artist. There are special artists, today, too--and I hear plenty of them. Time tends to glorify; I've heard too much music to buy into it, I'm afraid--but it is probably also a matter of Musikweltanschauung whether one sees it that way or not. It's not an argument in which facts play a particularly important role, I don't think. Which is in itself one of the fascinating aspects of Music (or Art).

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on November 15, 2009, 02:48:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 15, 2009, 01:55:25 PM
Furtwängler was a special artist. There are special artists, today, too--and I hear plenty of them. Time tends to glorify; I've heard too much music to buy into it, I'm afraid--but it is probably also a matter of Musikweltanschauung whether one sees it that way or not. It's not an argument in which facts play a particularly important role, I don't think. Which is in itself one of the fascinating aspects of Music (or Art).

Well, it is a fact that overall orchestral standards have improved drastically over the past few decades, as a rule. I just have doubts over whether that would effect the exceptions to this rule, regardless of decade, or century (!).

Isn't it the 'special artists' of each era that we ultimately debate between, for a majority of our favourite recordings?


That 'The Past Masters' as a label is often the product of needlessly exclusive (past vs. present) glorification, however, I would be inclined to agree with. But only to the extent that this is not taken to entail the other extreme, viz. disingenuousness about their achievements. I have no doubt Osmo Vänskä is at least as great a conductor as Felix Weingartner, but that does not, IMO, make Felix Weingartner dispensable.

(Unless the deciding factor is recording quality, of course! For me, it isn't. :))
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 15, 2009, 02:52:58 PM
Jens, you should consider also that, as orchestral standards do increase (no doubt about that), the level of indviduality from one orchestra to the next decreases proportionately. What you're gaining in terms of orchestral fluency brings a corresponding decrease in the ability of the players to give a 'face' to their playing. That is particularly true with the so-called world Youth orchestras. There's no way to distinguish one from another. That was certainly not the case in Mahler's time, where each orchestra had its own tone, phrasing, even different instruments.

Personally I lament the fact that some of the really great orchestras like the Concertgebouw have become just like their neighbours in corporate personality. Execution is still immensely polished, their virtuosity probably even greater than before, and recognizable tonally when performing at their home (because of the hall's magnificent acoustics). But it's distinctly not the orchestra that recorded Mahler under Haitink, van beinum let alone Mengelberg (with whom Mahler worked very closely).  The same thing is happening in Vienna and Dresden :(.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 15, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_4.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1157

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.4 (Part 1) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1157)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 16, 2009, 07:24:46 PM
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1170 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1170)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_4_2.png)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.4 (Part 2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1170)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on November 17, 2009, 12:14:38 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 16, 2009, 07:24:46 PM
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.4 (Part 2)

You have unfinished sentence about Ivan Fischer slow movement in there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 04:20:09 AM
Quote from: Drasko on November 17, 2009, 12:14:38 AM
You have unfinished sentence about Ivan Fischer slow movement in there.

Thanks! I took care of the stray.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on November 17, 2009, 07:39:51 AM
A couple of things here...

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2009, 10:04:51 AM
It's especially true of his Berlin Phil recordings (an orchestra with no Mahler tradition).

Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 10:13:09 AM
The Berlin Phil has not a lot less Mahler tradition than the Vienna Phil. So one didn't play much Mahler until the 80s... and the other band did, but grudgingly.  ;D

Neither are the NYP or RCO in that respect. Or Munich, had they not neglected their Mahler tradition at the expense of a Bruckner-only tradition.

I am frankly thinking more and more that this concept of a [insert composer of choice]-tradition within one orchestra or another is complete bunk. The living musicians of a given band do not somehow osmotically absorb an idiomatic approach to a composer's work just because their dead predecessors had one. Yes, there is a certain continuity that can be passed from sitting musicians to newer ones as they enter an orchestra, but the effect of this is exaggerated. Whether or not a collective of musicians has an intuitive grasp for the music of one particular composer is far more the result of their musical training and listening experience, and then most importantly the work of the conductors with whom they have had meaningful relationships. I do think we should more often do blind listening comparisons. These [composer]-traditions I think are far more the product of our prejudice based on our knowledge of an orchestra's history (or marketing hype) than an actual measurable musical manifestation.

Still, I have to correct some statements of yours regarding Mahler "tradition" of the various bands in question. While I think the claims of a lack of Mahler in the pre-Bernstein, pre-Abbado programming of the BPO and VPO is somewhat exaggerated, you simply can't put the Concertgebouw in that group. If there is one orchestra that has consistently devoted itself to the music of Mahler it has got to be that band, having performed Mahler right up to occupation (there is a 1939 live recording of das Lied with Carl Schuricht). The RCO's continuity in Mahlering is clearly evidenced on those wonderful 14-CD sets of historic radio broadcasts they have been issuing on their own label.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 15, 2009, 02:52:58 PM
Jens, you should consider also that, as orchestral standards do increase (no doubt about that), the level of indviduality from one orchestra to the next decreases proportionately. What you're gaining in terms of orchestral fluency brings a corresponding decrease in the ability of the players to give a 'face' to their playing. That is particularly true with the so-called world Youth orchestras. There's no way to distinguish one from another. That was certainly not the case in Mahler's time, where each orchestra had its own tone, phrasing, even different instruments.

Personally I lament the fact that some of the really great orchestras like the Concertgebouw have become just like their neighbours in corporate personality. Execution is still immensely polished, their virtuosity probably even greater than before, and recognizable tonally when performing at their home (because of the hall's magnificent acoustics). But it's distinctly not the orchestra that recorded Mahler under Haitink, van beinum let alone Mengelberg (with whom Mahler worked very closely).  The same thing is happening in Vienna and Dresden :(.

While there is some truth to increased assimilation due to an elevation of technical standards, I would have to disagree with the purported lack of distinction in the sound of different orchestras. The sonic tradition of an orchestra has first and foremost to do with the hall. Drier halls yield clearer, more precise ensembles (e.g. CSO), warmer halls, yield richer, lusher bands (RCO, VPO, BPO, BSO), while German opera orchestras seem to be overcompensating for a lack of bass resonance of their houses by developing a very dark, botttom-heavy sound (SK Dresden, SK Berlin). Overall that doesn't change. Nor does the German orchestras' preference for German rotary trumpets and German oboes with shorts scrape reeds, as opposed to longer scrapes on American oboes and piston trumpets. These basic ingredients of an orchestral sound are still the same.

What *has* changed is one thing: music directors have shorter residencies each season than they used to and their tenures tend to be shorter as well. The seemingly interminable tenures of e.g. Ormandy in Philly, Szell in Cleve, Haitink at the RCO, Karajan in Berlin, are practically unthinkable today. So the lack in distinction is less one resulting from a change in the orchestral sound per se, but a lack of routine in developing one particular soundscape for one particular conductor. I do not think that is a bad thing. I empathize with Salonen when he tells of his futile travails in trying to scrub the Karajan out of the BPO's Sibelius. Today's orchestras are much more flexible in producing *different* soundscapes for different conductors while still retaining their basic identity. There is still no mistaking the BPO for the RCO or the VPO or the CSO. Yet, it never amazes me how much e.g. Haitink can get the CSO to sound like his old RCO when he's in town (BTW, the RCO under Haitink when he guest conducts today does not sound in any way significantly different than the RCO when he was still music director). If you want to compare orchestras over time, you have to look at how they sound under the *same* conductor.

PS: the youth orchestras are not at all the same. E.g., the East-Western Divan has a unique sound based completely on Barenboim's sonic ideals. One would sooner confuse them for the Staatskapelle Berlin than for the UBS Verbier orchestra. Likewise, the Simon Bolivar has a heft and mass of sound stemming from its sheer size that is unmistakable, not to mention their unique sense of rhythm.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2009, 10:04:51 AM
Does Boulez believe? I don't know. He certainly waited long enough to begin programming Mahler.

The question is: does Boulez believe what? I do think he quite seriously believes in Mahler the prescient modernist and that is the angle he presents. Of course he doesn't care for Mahler the heart-on-sleeve purveyor of Weltschmerz any more than he ever cared for raw primordial violence in Stravinsky. That doesn't mean you can accuse Boulez of a lack of individuality of interpretation in Mahler.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 14, 2009, 10:04:51 AM
If Mahler conductors can be classified (e.g., the classical objectivists like Bertini and Szell; modernists like Gielen and Dohnányi; the emotional subjectivists like Bernstein, Barbirolli; the Mahler-Lite of Kubelik, Neumann and Segerstam; the weird interventionists Sinopoli and Maazel), Abbado is Mahler as Mush: the music smoothed out and polite; guaranteed to give no offense; nothing crude or vulgar allowed.

Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 10:13:09 AM
I agree with Abbado, generally. I respect few conductors as much as C.A., but his Mahler I often find too %^&*(# boring. Too well behaved. Not unlike Jansons. Yawn. Or like Chailly, without the glorious glow. But in the Third... that's a little different. I like the understated approach to that Symphony. What makes a Sixth a failure can make a Third work for me. Perhaps you put more weight on the first movement(s), and I more on the last? Abbado's Berlin 6th? Yikes. His 4th? Nope.

Sarge, I'll have to disagree with you here. Firstly, Kubelik is not Mahler-"lite" in any way. What he does is to play out the folkloristic elements in Mahler, an approach that I find extremely rewarding, for it lures the listener in with a certain congeniality that inescapably leads to exposing the grotesqueness of Mahler's music. Barenboim writes intelligently on how much Kubelik in this respect influenced his approach to Mahler. I think this approach yields the most rewards in symphonies like 1, 4, 5 and 7. But I consider e.g. Kubelik's 2nd one of the finest on record, and there is nothing "lite" about it.

I see where you and Jens are coming from on Abbado. I too find Abbado on disc frustrating. There is an insightfulness and attention to detail and naturalness of phrase that contrasts with a certain inescapable blandness on record at times. I'm not sure what that is, whether his performances are just more exciting live than on these (possibly overengineered?) recordings or what. The supposed night-and-day difference between his studio Beethoven cycle and the live version issued shortly thereafter might support that finding. I haven't heard either yet.  Still there is too much I find fascinatingly interesting in Abbado's approach to various details to dismiss him out of hand as "boring". Mahler does not always have to be a roller-coaster ride and I do find both Abbado and e.g. Haitink/CSO massively rewarding in Mahler's 6th despite a superficial lack of initial intensity.

Quote from: jlaurson on November 14, 2009, 06:07:05 PM
From Schnabel to Pollini? That's from gaslight to halogen spots.

But only if you ignore the fact that Pollini's teacher, the late Arturo Bendetti Michelangeli, radiated a pure solar light that Pollini at his best has never approached. ;-)

It's not that simple. Developments aren't always linear. And Birgit Nilsson still beats every Wagnerian soprano that came after her.  ;)

Also, halogen spots burn out awfully fast. I have to fix a light in the kitchen yet again!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 08:30:15 AM
Quote from: Mensch on November 17, 2009, 07:39:51 AM
Still, I have to correct some statements of yours regarding Mahler "tradition" of the various bands in question. While I think the claims of a lack of Mahler in the pre-Bernstein, pre-Abbado programming of the BPO and VPO is somewhat exaggerated, you simply can't put the Concertgebouw in that group. If there is one orchestra that has consistently devoted itself to the music of Mahler it has got to be that band, having performed Mahler right up to occupation (there is a 1939 live recording of das Lied with Carl Schuricht).


I don't know how my sentence was meant to be read, but I know I meant the opposite of what you think I said. I meant to say that ONLY the NYP and the RCO have a living Mahler tradition, whereas the VPO does not. And the MPhil does, but it's nascent. I have excel files of every Mahler performance ever produced by all of these three orchestras, if you are interested.

And thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful reply, in the first place.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 17, 2009, 11:59:10 AM
QuoteWhile there is some truth to increased assimilation due to an elevation of technical standards, I would have to disagree with the purported lack of distinction in the sound of different orchestras. The sonic tradition of an orchestra has first and foremost to do with the hall (...) So the lack in distinction is less one resulting from a change in the orchestral sound per se, but a lack of routine in developing one particular soundscape for one particular conductor. I do not think that is a bad thing. I empathize with Salonen when he tells of his futile travails in trying to scrub the Karajan out of the BPO's Sibelius. Today's orchestras are much more flexible in producing *different* soundscapes for different conductors while still retaining their basic identity. T .

Some time ago there was a thread with a link to a series of recordings by the RCO. Haitink, Kondrashin, Janssons, Bernstein, Harnoncourt, etc.  Same hall, same orchestra, recordings made over some 30 years under various conductors. Should I expect a 'signature sound' ? Obviously the whole series should make for an interesting test on the issue OM mentions.

I just today started listening to one: Beethoven's second symphony, from 2004 (Janssons).  Well, this either gives the lie to the 'continuity', the 'tradition' of sound achieved over generations of musicians in the Concertgebouw, or it gives credence to OM's comment that 'Today's orchestras are much more flexible in producing *different* soundscapes for different conductors while still retaining their basic identity'.  I couldn't possibly recognize the sound as recorded here as that imprinted in my mind (and on numerous discs I own) as being that of the Concertgebouw - I'm speaking both of the orchestra and the hall.

I'm not referring to the Haitink era in particular but, to give two examples, just listen to Kondrashin's Schéhérazade or Harnoncourt's Jupiter symphony (both well-known and widely available commercial discs). They are obviously the work of the same group of musicians. The 'RCO sound'  is instantly recognizable in both cases. Under Janssons, the orchestra plays in a thoroughly unfamiliar way (to MY ears, of course). It could very well be that they're producing a 'different soundscape' because that's what Janssons wants from them. I suppose the amsterdamers are flexible enough to be more chameleon-like in sonority than the berliners (I'm referring to the interesting Salonen-Sibelius comment here).

It's possible also that I'm unsympathetic to what I hear because I thoroughly disliked the interpretation. I've been afflicted by bronchitis lately and what I hear reminds me a lot of how I've been since I became ill: short of breath, unable to speak more than a couple of sentences without breaking into a bout of spastic coughing. This Beethoven has no legato, phrasing is choppy, it never sings, it erupts in loud bursts that come out of nowhere. Totally unsympathetic, unsmiling. Comparison with Jochum's Philips RCO 2nd is very instructive here. Either the orchestra did sound different then, or it's the conductor (Jochum) who simply respected their corporate sound. The deep gurgle of the 1969 RCO horns, their inimitable low winds' organ sounds are what I recall from that era. Maybe I will hear it again as I'll listen to that series of concerts - under Bernstein (Mahler 1), Haitink (Schumann 1, Bizet), Harnoncourt (Schubert 8), Giulini (Dvorak 8), Chung (Saint-Saëns 3) or Kondrashin (Menselssohn 4). Janssons conducts 4 out of 10 works here (Beethoven 2, Brahms 2, Franck, Sibelius 2). Altogether it should be a pretty comprehensive survey. It will certainly take time, but I think I'll have a better idea of the subject. So far I acknowledge that my impressions are just that. They will either be confirmed, modified, or refuted.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on November 17, 2009, 02:49:24 PM
Lilas, two questions for you:

1. How often have you heard the RCO live in person as opposed to on recordings? If we're going to say that the RCO preserved on RCO live today does not sound like the homogeneous productions that emanated from Philips for decades, be they with van Beinum, Jochum, Haitink, Kondrashin or whoever, there is no question the sound has changed. But that is an engineering issue!

2. Do you have any of the RCO 14-CD sets of live broadcasts covering the 1940s to the 1980s? Those give a much better idea of how the orchestra sounded over time.

It's funny you take Jansons to task when I recall reading some behind the scenes comments by Haitink who disliked what Chailly did to the sound of the RCO, praising that Jansons had returnd the "old" RCO sound!

Quote from: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 08:30:15 AM
I don't know how my sentence was meant to be read, but I know I meant the opposite of what you think I said. I meant to say that ONLY the NYP and the RCO have a living Mahler tradition, whereas the VPO does not. And the MPhil does, but it's nascent. I have excel files of every Mahler performance ever produced by all of these three orchestras, if you are interested.

And thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful reply, in the first place.

Fine. But what does a tradition make? Three Mahler performances per year? What's your cutoff? How do you measure this? Why is this meaningful at all?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 17, 2009, 05:00:11 PM
Quote from: Mensch on November 17, 2009, 02:49:24 PM
Fine. But what does a tradition make? Three Mahler performances per year? What's your cutoff? How do you measure this? Why is this meaningful at all?

I didn't respond to that because I kindof agree with you.

But I can tell you what tradition means in my book: An actual historical tradition of performing these works... i.e. premieres under the composer et al.
And continued performance of with that music or, alternatively, experience with music that is relevant to the performance. (If you deal with an orchestra of which no one has grown up prancing around in Lederhosen, absorbing Laendlers and Austrian Folk music, it's going to be awfully difficult to convey in an efficient manner what you want in this bit or that part... You can play the notes, sure... and Mahler gives more instructions than most, but "flavor" is going to be more easily (not exclusively!) attained by those with a performing tradition or cultural kinship.

Meanwhile:

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1192 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1192)


(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_4_3.png)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.4 (Part 3)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1192)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 18, 2009, 04:13:11 PM
OM, the answer is three times. In 1983 under Harnoncourt (all Mozart), 2005 under Davies (Prokofiev), and 2009 under Myung-Whun Chung (Bruckner). I'm going back next year for a Mahler concert under Daniele Gatti (crossing my fingers of course). There's no doubt  that the sound in concert was slightly different from that of commercial records (less reverb). But this is something that's easy to factor in (or out). The closest 'traditional RCO sound' I heard from that limited exposure was under Russell Davies.

It's definitely not an engineering issue. If you have ever sat in the Concertgebouw, I'm sure you've recognized the acoustics immediately, even if your prior experience was through records. But the playing is different. The tone of the brass instruments and winds in particular has changed. BTW my impression is that Philips reproduced the hall's sound better than Decca.

I do have a few CDs from the big centenary boxes (Haitink, Kubelik). And a few others from the Dutch Radio archives, not included in that box AFAIK (but I could be wrong). The sound of course did change, IMO substantially, as the Haitink tenure started. In their  earliest records, it was still van Beinum's orchestra. Personally I prefer their 1960s to mid 70s sound. It was at its most euphonious (not always the case under Beinum) while still preserving unique tonal qualities.

If you compare the sound of the two Beethoven seconds I mention, you can't miss the difference. And it has nothing to do with live vs recorded performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 18, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 18, 2009, 04:13:11 PM
OM, the answer is three times. In 1983 under Harnoncourt (all Mozart), 2005 under Davies (Prokofiev), and 2009 under Myung-Whun Chung (Bruckner). I'm going back next year for a Mahler concert under Daniele Gatti (crossing my fingers of course).

Let's all meet at the Concertgebouw for Mahler. I'm going in February for the 7th under Jansons.  ;)


Meanwhile, Mahler-off-beat:

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1204 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1204)


The Spheres of Mahler
Bukowski, Berio, Caine, and Zimro
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1204)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 18, 2009, 04:42:17 PM
Mine will be June 24 (or 25). Gatti conducts the 5th. Do you plan to attend?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 18, 2009, 05:01:29 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 18, 2009, 04:42:17 PM
Mine will be June 24 (or 25). Gatti conducts the 5th. Do you plan to attend?

After my last experience with Gatti & Mahler, absolutely!

I'll see how February goes. Depends on whether one of the double bassists will put me up.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on November 18, 2009, 06:30:43 PM
Dears, you just reminded me that I will be in NW Germany the first weekend of December. I think a detour to Amsterdam to hear Jansons do the 2nd is in order!  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 21, 2009, 06:27:07 AM
Quote from: Mensch on November 17, 2009, 07:39:51 AM
Sarge, I'll have to disagree with you here. Firstly, Kubelik is not Mahler-"lite" in any way. What he does is to play out the folkloristic elements in Mahler, an approach that I find extremely rewarding, for it lures the listener in with a certain congeniality that inescapably leads to exposing the grotesqueness of Mahler's music. Barenboim writes intelligently on how much Kubelik in this respect influenced his approach to Mahler. I think this approach yields the most rewards in symphonies like 1, 4, 5 and 7. But I consider e.g. Kubelik's 2nd one of the finest on record, and there is nothing "lite" about it.

Thank you (and Jens) for your replies. Yes, perhaps I've misjudged or mischaracterized Kubelik for too long. In the 60s, early 70s, when I had little money and had to choose just one or maybe two recordings of each symphony, Kubelik simply didn't deliver what I was looking for in Mahler. Today it's different of course. I can afford as many versions as I want, and I appreciate different approaches to music I know so well. Anyway, I've ordered Kubelik's Audite Third and also Abbado's Third. I'll give them a fair shake.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 21, 2009, 07:28:44 AM
Shake that Abbado, Sarge. Shake it good!



Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.5 (Part 1)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_5.png)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1218

WETA is closing out Mahler Month with the last six performances of the complete Gielen cycle (the one I chose as the integral to be played), but I've just got going. (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1218)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on November 21, 2009, 08:02:04 AM
I am about to conduct a test.  My wife says that there would be little chance of her enjoying Mahler as she does not care anything much past Beethoven.  So I am going to throw in No. 4 and tell her it is the soundtrack for the recent release of A Christmas Carol.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 21, 2009, 08:18:02 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 21, 2009, 07:28:44 AM
Shake that Abbado, Sarge. Shake it good!

Shaken not stirred...definitely.

Quote from: Bogey on November 21, 2009, 08:02:04 AM
I am about to conduct a test.  My wife says that there would be little chance of her enjoying Mahler as she does not care anything much past Beethoven.  So I am going to throw in No. 4 and tell her it is the soundtrack for the recent release of A Christmas Carol.

Sly, Bill, sly  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on November 21, 2009, 08:19:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 21, 2009, 08:18:02 AM
Shaken not stirred...definitely.

Sly, Bill, sly  ;D

Sarge

She took it hook, line, and sinker.  We both agree (and we came to these conclusions on our own) that pieces of the first movement remind us of some of the John Williams' soundtrack to Home Alone.  I guess if you are going to lift a bit.....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 21, 2009, 12:10:30 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 21, 2009, 07:28:44 AM
Shake that Abbado, Sarge. Shake it good!



Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.5 (Part 1)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_5.png)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1218

WETA is closing out Mahler Month with the last six performances of the complete Gielen cycle (the one I chose as the integral to be played), but I've just got going. (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1218)



Very good, Jens !

For good measure, you should give a hearing to the NYPO Walter and VSSO Scherchen (not the infamously cut version, of course).

Barbirolli, anyone? 80% of the time I just can't jump on Sir John's Mahler 5 bandwagon. But when in the right mood (that's the missing 20% !) he persuades me there's no other way. Also of interest: Barshai is sizzling,  Farberman outbarbirollies everyone else (in glorious sound). My current favourite: the inexpensive Neumann with the Leipzig Gewandhausorchester. 

For those interested, here they are in timing order (from fast to slow): Walter, Scherchen, Neumann, Barshai, Barbirolli and Farberman. From 60 to 79 minutes.... ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 21, 2009, 03:06:11 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 21, 2009, 12:10:30 PM


Very good, Jens !

For good measure, you should give a hearing to the NYPO Walter and VSSO Scherchen (not the infamously cut version, of course).

Barbirolli, anyone? 80% of the time I just can't jump on Sir John's Mahler 5 bandwagon. But when in the right mood (that's the missing 20% !) he persuades me there's no other way. Also of interest: Barshai is sizzling,  Farberman outbarbirollies everyone else (in glorious sound). My current favourite: the inexpensive Neumann with the Leipzig Gewandhausorchester. 

Not to worry. Scherchen's VSSO recording gets a good trashing in Part 2. Ditto NYPO Walter.  ;D
Neumann is one of the top five choices, what a fabulous performance that you can actually hear. Barbirolli I don't like... too sweet in the 5th. So unlike his stupendous 6th. Barshai gets a strong recommendation, also.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on November 21, 2009, 08:57:29 PM
Another very worthwhile but underappreciated Mahler 5, IMHO, is Barenboim/CSO: flexible, detailed, superbly played, logically progressing as a whole. It's somewhat in the Kubelik mold, but with a bit more energy. Agree with your estimation of Kubelik, BTW. One of the top choices IMHO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 22, 2009, 02:15:10 PM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_5_2.png)



Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.5 (Part 2)


(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1230)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on November 22, 2009, 02:34:00 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 22, 2009, 02:15:10 PM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_5_2.png)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1230

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.5 (Part 2)


(//http://)

Bad link, Jens. :)


Edit: And good to see mention of Stenz. I've said more than once, here, how very impressed I was by a Mahler 6th I heard from him and the Gürzenich-Orchester Köln 2-3 years back, so it's nice to hear his Mahler is such a gripping affair in general.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2009, 04:57:53 AM
Quote from: Mensch on November 21, 2009, 08:57:29 PM
Agree with your estimation of Kubelik, BTW. One of the top choices IMHO.

The last time I listened to Kubelik's Fifth was in July 1976. I recall the dog started to howl along with the opening trumpet  ;D  That was pretty much how I felt. Maybe it's time I gave it another go.

Favorite Fifths at the moment: the Leipzig Neumann and Dohnányi with the Cleveland. Both surprised me on first hearing. I didn't expect to like either one.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 23, 2009, 05:04:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2009, 04:57:53 AM
The last time I listened to Kubelik's Fifth was in July 1976.

Good Lord, how do you know this? Do you have a chart indicating exactly when you listened to certain pieces of music, or just an exceptionally good memory?

(thread duty: I think the Kubelik M5 is pretty good, but my overall favorite is Chailly)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2009, 05:27:55 AM
Quote from: Contents Under Pressure on November 23, 2009, 05:04:24 AM
Good Lord, how do you know this? Do you have a chart indicating exactly when you listened to certain pieces of music, or just an exceptionally good memory?

July 1976 was perhaps the most memorable period of my life. I'd been dating the future Mrs. Rock nine months at that point. Her family went on a four week vacation to the North Sea, leaving us alone with a big house to play in  ;)  I recall vividly the evening we heard the Mahler (although if it hadn't been for the dog's response to the music, that moment might have slipped my memory). I  bought Barbirolli and Karajan's versions a short time later and preferred them.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 26, 2009, 05:25:25 AM
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1254 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1254)



Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.6 (Part 1)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_6.png)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1254)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 26, 2009, 05:26:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2009, 05:27:55 AM
July 1976 was perhaps the most memorable period of my life. I'd been dating the future Mrs. Rock nine months at that point. Her family went on a four week vacation to the North Sea, leaving us alone with a big house to play in  ;)  I recall vividly the evening we heard the Mahler (although if it hadn't been for the dog's response to the music, that moment might have slipped my memory). I  bought Barbirolli and Karajan's versions a short time later and preferred them.

Sarge

That story reminds me of the *other* Bukowski poem I quoted.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 28, 2009, 09:00:24 AM
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1338 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1338)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.7 (Part 1)



(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_7_1.png)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Mahler_Lindloff_copy_S_PNG.png)




(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1338)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 28, 2009, 09:05:36 AM
...and also:
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_6_3.png) & (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_6_2.png)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1291 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1291)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1307 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1307)


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 29, 2009, 04:17:38 PM
Very good posts, Jens. This is a good cross spectrum of available 6th symphony recordings. There are two more Barbirollis out there, one with the Berlin Philharmonic, wchich was panned mercelessly by the Classicstoday Mahler pundits (Hurwitz and Hüss). But I've seen good reviews from 'ordinary' listeners. There's also a live Royal Festival Hall interp with the New Philharmonia, practically contemporary from the studio version. The surprise is that Glorious John takes some 11 minutes less on that occasion. apparently the sound is excellent. Anyone heard that ?

Jens, I don't think you were fair to the Szell version. It needs to be played at a much higher than usual playback level. Once you get there, it springs to life with urgency and not a little orchestral virtuosity.

And of course there's that killer Bongartz... ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 29, 2009, 05:03:37 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 29, 2009, 04:17:38 PM
Very good posts, Jens. This is a good cross spectrum of available 6th symphony recordings. There are two more Barbirollis out there, one with the Berlin Philharmonic, wchich was panned mercelessly by the Classicstoday Mahler pundits (Hurwitz and Hüss). But I've seen good reviews from 'ordinary' listeners. There's also a live Royal Festival Hall interp with the New Philharmonia, practically contemporary from the studio version. The surprise is that Glorious John takes some 11 minutes less on that occasion. apparently the sound is excellent. Anyone heard that ?

Jens, I don't think you were fair to the Szell version. It needs to be played at a much higher than usual playback level. Once you get there, it springs to life with urgency and not a little orchestral virtuosity.

And of course there's that killer Bongartz... ;)



Found Bongartz better than Szell, but not by that much... very tame beginning for such an alleged killer. But very fine playing, indeed.
Irrelevant for my review, though, since it's hopelessly out of print (at least as an individual performance), I understand.
Barbirolli Testament Berlin 6th has unacceptably bad playing--but I'm intrigued to hear of a third performance I did not know.
Hurwitz tends to prefer recordings for which he wrote the liner notes.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 30, 2009, 05:36:23 PM
Hmmm, Jens. How do you listen to music? Does the hen hatch the egg, or the egg becomes a hen? Methink you seem to be of the former persuasion  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 30, 2009, 05:48:05 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 30, 2009, 05:36:23 PM
Hmmm, Jens. How do you listen to music? Does the hen hatch the egg, or the egg becomes a hen? Methink you seem to be of the former persuasion  ;)

I'm afraid I don't know to what you are referring. But purely scientifically speaking, the egg came first.

Meanwhile:

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_7_1.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1338 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1338)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_7_2.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1351 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1351)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_8.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_8_2.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_DLvdE_1.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1397 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1397)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 30, 2009, 06:28:13 PM
The hen hatches the egg. In one second it's there. Can it look anything else  than just another hen's egg? You don't know what happened in the hen's body. It's like Minerva who was 'hatched' fully armoured from Jupiter's cranium (no wonder he had a giant headache).

Or it can be the egg that becomes a hen. You see the egg, you see it moving, then cracks appear, a chick comes out, and it takes it a good while to grow up and become an adult. Could be a hen or a rooster. There are options all along.

It seems to me you are prompt to categorize musical interpretations as so many eggs - small, medium, large, jumbo... I prefer to see hens and roosters growing, and take my time before deciding what to think of it ;).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 01, 2009, 01:15:52 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 30, 2009, 06:28:13 PM
The hen hatches the egg. In one second it's there. Can it look anything else  than just another hen's egg? You don't know what happened in the hen's body. It's like Minerva who was 'hatched' fully armoured from Jupiter's cranium (no wonder he had a giant headache).

Or it can be the egg that becomes a hen. You see the egg, you see it moving, then cracks appear, a chick comes out, and it takes it a good while to grow up and become an adult. Could be a hen or a rooster. There are options all along.

It seems to me you are prompt to categorize musical interpretations as so many eggs - small, medium, large, jumbo... I prefer to see hens and roosters growing, and take my time before deciding what to think of it ;).

I still don't follow the analogy, quite frankly. You object to my questioning the Bongartz performance's "Killer status" based on the opening bars?.

What about your egg story. I thought you were referring to the alleged, age-old conundrum: "What came first, the chicken or the egg."  :)

And the answer to that is: "The egg." Every chicken, without exception, hatches and has ever hatched from an egg, and so did the first ever chicken. But the chicken hasn't always existed, so some other creature (very chicken-like, depending on where you draw the line in this continual process) must have lain that egg from with the genetic mutation now known as "chicken" hath hatched.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 01, 2009, 07:45:07 AM
Just laying an analogy between a seemingly vexating conundrum and the impossibility (for me) to come to definite conclusions about interpretive matters in music. Things can be either clear cut, or in a constant state of evolution.

What I meant to say is that you seem to be of the first persuasion, while others (including me) are from the latter. Just like the egg&hen, there's no right or wrong way, but recognizing the differences in thought processes may be useful and interesting.

re: Bongartz' M6: why just the opening bars? More than any other Mahler symphony, the 6th is really over only when it's over. Seldom has a work ended in such cataclysmic devastation. By that time, the opening bars are a long way. The whole first movement is actually just a prelude. I'd never gauge an interpretation just on that movement, let alone the opening bars...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 01, 2009, 05:32:51 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 01, 2009, 07:45:07 AM
Just laying an analogy between a seemingly vexating conundrum and the impossibility (for me) to come to definite conclusions about interpretive matters in music. Things can be either clear cut, or in a constant state of evolution.

What I meant to say is that you seem to be of the first persuasion, while others (including me) are from the latter. Just like the egg&hen, there's no right or wrong way, but recognizing the differences in thought processes may be useful and interesting.

Well... conclusions are either definite or they are not conclusions. However flawed any assessment of any artistic subject inevitably has to be, If I could not share opinions/conclusions, I might well never have started writing about Mahler recordings and just selectively quoted anecdotes from Henri-L. d.L.G.   ;D
I don't deny the substantial, perhaps even dominating, aspect of subjectivity and such questions, though... if that puts you at ease.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 01, 2009, 07:45:07 AMre: Bongartz' M6: why just the opening bars? More than any other Mahler symphony, the 6th is really over only when it's over. Seldom has a work ended in such cataclysmic devastation. By that time, the opening bars are a long way. The whole first movement is actually just a prelude. I'd never gauge an interpretation just on that movement, let alone the opening bars...

Nor do I. I just asked if that had been your perception and thus precipitated the chicken-egg thing, in the first place.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2009, 08:47:09 AM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Gustav_Mahler_DLvdE_2.png)

Gustav Mahler – Das Lied von der Erde (Part 2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1438)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 09, 2009, 05:32:13 PM
Excellent review, Jens, and I agree with most of your choices !! 

I haven't heard the recent Nagano MSO version - I don't like Nagano, I'm not really fond of the all-male version of the work and am not in need of a new Das Lied anyway. But, following your enthusiastic review I'd certainly be inclined to lend an ear to this release  ;).

Other options I would suggest are: Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra (live, 1967) - much more flexible than the Reiner recording (that makes 3 of them with that particular pair or Forrester and King!) . Also, the Boulez with Vickers and Yvonne Minton (unofficial) is reather special, as is the oft-cited (and sometimes reviled !) one with Fischer-Dieskau, James King, the WP and Leonard Bernstein (my first DLVDE ever).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on December 10, 2009, 01:04:07 PM
Hmmm--on the strength of Jens's review and his top-drawer Mahler 8th, I foresee Nagano's DLVDE in my future!  (Although MTT's excellent recording should more than suffice for the high-test(osterone) version.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 10, 2009, 05:37:00 PM
I listened to the van Beinum 6th this week (live from the Concertgebouw), on Tahra. This was one instance in which I just couldn't get past the ghastly sound.  I found the first movement rather disjointed. Unsettled would be more charitable I suppose, but I couldn't make sense of the conductor's herky-jerky way with the score. The interpretation is at its considerable best in the fervent, fervid Andante (placed second). The scherzo doesn't leave much of an impression. The finale is imposing and exciting. No hammerblows - some other device was used, probably an extra loud thwack on the bass drum, coupled with a big timpani roll (not in the score). The final kaboom is frightening, even with the unfortunate anticipatory pre-echo - it spoils the effect a bit. The great Amsterdam orchestra was clearly having a rough time keeping up with the conductor. Any second tier orchestra plays better than that nowadays. Still, they have their moments. I don't think I'll listen to this one again, except maybe if I go on a comparison binge.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 12, 2009, 04:02:01 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on December 12, 2009, 03:34:29 AM
Saw a concert listing recently for Mahler's 10th in a "reconstruction" by Nicola Samale and Giuseppe Mazzuca, also known for their part in various completions of Bruckner's 9th.

Anybody heard this, or know of a recording?


There is only one recording available with that version, and that's Martin Sieghart's with the Arnheim PO on Exton (SACD)

(http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/I/518jt5lb9AL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Gusav Mahler
Symphony No.10
Samale-Mazzucca "Ricostruzione" (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00164PPU4?ie=UTF8&tag=jlaurson-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B00164PPU4)

I've not heard this version on CD or live.
I've provided the German Amazon link, although I suppose few people would want to spend the 518 (!!!) Euros on it  :o , for which it is officially listed. (Free shipping, though.  ;)
Still expensive in Japan (http://www.amazon.co.jp/Mahler-Symphony-10-2sacd-Lt/dp/B00164PPU4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260622239&sr=8-3), but more reasonable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 12, 2009, 07:25:41 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on December 12, 2009, 07:15:02 AM
And much more reasonable still if you go for the normal SACD (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/2707429) instead of the "limited edition" "direct cut" one (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/2707441) (whatever that is.)

Oh, yes... I didn't even see the extra digit on the Amazon.co.jp item. Obviously 37000 Yen is not really "more reasonable" for any CD. 3700 is... sort of. Now I've found the German Amazon link for that one, too... HERE (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00164PPR2?ie=UTF8&tag=klassikinfo-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B00164PPR2), where 42 Euros for two SACD seems the less outrageous. No wonder it's hard to find with their spelling of "Mahler".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on December 12, 2009, 08:23:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 12, 2009, 07:25:41 AM
No wonder it's hard to find with their spelling of "Mahler".

That's Gusrav for you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on December 12, 2009, 09:36:09 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 12, 2009, 04:02:01 AM

Gusav Mahler
Symphony No.10
Samale-Mazzucca "Ricostruzione" (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00164PPU4?ie=UTF8&tag=jlaurson-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B00164PPU4)

What a bargain! One might have the urge to buy a 517.99 € shovel and beat them sellers to death with it.

Quote from: jlaurson on December 12, 2009, 07:25:41 AM
No wonder it's hard to find with their spelling of "Mahler".

Gusrav Marler, the symphonist.  $:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on December 12, 2009, 01:14:20 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on December 12, 2009, 09:36:09 AM
Gusrav Marler, the sympronist.  $:)

Corrected!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 01:27:12 PM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Gustav_Mahler_9_1.png)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 1) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:02:51 PM
Too bad Mahler's 4th is still under-appreciated by many who regard themselves as Mahler devotees.  It's a peach. 

Who was it said, "Tragedy's easy, comedy's hard?"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 15, 2009, 10:36:19 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:02:51 PM
Too bad Mahler's 4th is still under-appreciated by many who regard themselves as Mahler devotees.  It's a peach. 

One reason for this IMHO is that it was one of the few works that got played frequently during the decades of overall Mahler neglect. Hence, it got a reputation as "Mahler for those who don't like Mahler."

I read some classical music guide published in the 1940s or so, and it said something to the effect of, "Many listeners find Mahler's symphonies long-winded and badly structured. The 4th however is a delightful exception..." A common sentiment in those days.

As a Mahler devotee, I don't like it as much as the other symphonies because it lacks the large-scale, dramatic, apocalyptic element that I regard as part of the essential Mahler style. Also for this reason, it's not a work I would recommend to a Mahler newbie. It doesn't give an accurate picture of the composer.

It's a nice piece for sure, but it doesn't rock my world.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on December 16, 2009, 12:16:05 AM
The 4th is my favorite. Perhaps because it more traditional forms requires him to structure his thoughts. Always a good thing in an artist I think. Probably why Brahms is my favorite romantic composer as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 02:29:34 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 15, 2009, 03:02:51 PM
Too bad Mahler's 4th is still under-appreciated by many who regard themselves as Mahler devotees.  It's a peach. 

Who was it said, "Tragedy's easy, comedy's hard?"


I see no evidence whatsoever for an alleged neglect of the Fourth... it is, after all, one of the three most popular and most often performed of his symphonies.
The reason for not being appreciated as much by the harder core of "Mahler devotees"---if we can make that conjecture at all---might be because it is not Mahlerian enough? Because it doesn't continue the wretched and glorious bombast? As Alma Mahler said when she, then still a wise-cracking tween with a Zemlinsky-fetish, first saw the score: "For that sort of thing I prefer Haydn".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 02:47:41 AM
The 4th is my most beloved Mahler symphony.
I consider it his most balanced work, of which I could not choose a favourite movement.
Although sopranos like Elly Ameling, Helen Donath and Lucia Popp sometimes do serious attempts to convince me that the Finale is the most beautiful one! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 03:44:06 AM
For me, the Mahler 4th - especially on evidence of performances like Zinman's in the Edinburgh Festival last summer - is easily one of Mahler's most tragic works. It's not aggressive about it in any way, perhaps this being the issue with many listeners, but the emotional undercurrent, down to the sharp irony of the finale, is heart-wrenching. It's like singing a lullaby to a dying child.

Case in point, the slow movement of the 4th is the clearest precursor to the 9th I'm aware of, in Mahler's output; the 'obvious' last movement of the 3rd is only second for me, in that respect. Even more so, the fact that the 4th is so structurally balanced can make it even more poignant than the 9th, in sheer terms of crushing melancholy. The 9th accepts its fate.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 16, 2009, 04:02:11 AM
Quote from: erato on December 16, 2009, 12:16:05 AM
The 4th is my favorite.

Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 02:29:34 AM
I see no evidence whatsoever for an alleged neglect of the Fourth

Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 02:47:41 AM
The 4th is my most beloved Mahler symphony.

I appear to be outnumbered. Maybe I should surrender?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 04:16:47 AM
Quote from: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 03:44:06 AM
... the finale, is heart-wrenching. It's like singing a lullaby to a dying child.


Wow... where's the dying child coming from?  ;D
You don't think there is anything genuinely happy that Mahler ever wrote?

"This movement is about baby lambs  and little ducklings...
...
... ON THE WAY TO THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE!"


"This movement is about two children playing with their red rubber ball, laughing in the sunshine...
...
...TRYING TO COVER THEIR TEARS AS THEIR PARENTS ARE BEING BURIED.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 16, 2009, 04:31:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 04:16:47 AM
"This movement is about two children playing with their red rubber ball, laughing in the sunshine...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Happy_fun_ball.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2009, 05:33:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 04:16:47 AM
Wow... where's the dying child coming from?  ;D

Well, the last movement is about children in heaven. They're already dead! I like Renfield's interpretation. It is the kind of poem, and the kind of tune that might be used to soothe a very young, dying child, promising them a fairy tale heaven. But we adults know better--so yes, given its juxtaposition with the third movement it can be heard as a tragic finale. Maybe that's why I prefer the slower versions (e.g., Maazel and Chailly) that reinforce that view.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2009, 05:38:01 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 16, 2009, 04:02:11 AM
I appear to be outnumbered. Maybe I should surrender?

Maybe you should  ;D  I too love the Fourth. I spin it more than any other Mahler symphony which would, I guess,  make it my favorite if judged solely by the number of times heard.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 16, 2009, 06:26:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2009, 05:33:54 AM
Well, the last movement is about children in heaven. They're already dead!
Sarge
No Sarge, the last movement is about a child's view or heaven. It is one of the most uplifting movements Mahler ever wrote. Children do not see lamb and cattle being slaughtered as anything cruel or inhumane.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2009, 07:10:29 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 16, 2009, 06:26:07 AM
No Sarge, the last movement is about a child's view or heaven.

No, the song is not about a view of heaven--it's about children already in heaven. It says Wir genießen die himmlishen Freuden not Wir werden die himmlishen Freuden genießen. The only way you get to be in heaven is if you're dead. So yes, the song is about dead children and I can't think of dead children in any way but tragically no matter how cute the poetic images make it seem.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 16, 2009, 07:23:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2009, 07:10:29 AM
No, the song is not about a view of heaven--it's about children already in heaven. It says Wir genießen die himmlishen Freuden not Wir werden die himmlishen Freuden genießen. The only way you get to be in heaven is if you're dead. So yes, the song is about dead children and I can't think of dead children in any way but tragically no matter how cute the poetic images make it seem.

Sarge
My German is a bit rusty. The difference is "We enjoy the heavenly pleasures" instead of "We will enjoy the heavenly pleasures". Is the original poem about dead children?

I suppose if you make the inference that in order to be in heaven then you are dead (which is quite logical BTW) then this movement is about dead children. But I take it as to simply a reflection of what a child would think if you ask him/her what heaven is like. This reminds of me of a song in Kindertotenlieder about a child starving to death because his mother didn't make bread in time (a terribly wrenching song, one that I cannot bear to listen to at all). I guess if you ask THAT child what heaven is like he/she would come up with things you see/hear in the 4th symphony. So maybe that movement is about dying children afterall...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 16, 2009, 08:10:54 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 16, 2009, 07:23:41 AM
This reminds of me of a song in Kindertotenlieder about a child starving to death because his mother didn't make bread in time (a terribly wrenching song, one that I cannot bear to listen to at all). I guess if you ask THAT child what heaven is like he/she would come up with things you see/hear in the 4th symphony. So maybe that movement is about dying children afterall...

That's "Das irdische Leben," which is actually from Des Knaben Wunderhorn, not Kindertotenlieder. But what this all shows is how closely connected the "dying child" motif is in Mahler's work - no doubt rooted in his own (growing up) experience (and foreshadowing his later, adult experience).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 08:42:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2009, 05:33:54 AM
Maybe that's why I prefer the slower versions (e.g., Maazel and Chailly) that reinforce that view.
Somehow I feel we discussed about this before. But I'm too lazy to check it out. ;)

Anyway, Mahler himself wrote about the time indication in a letter to Nathalie Bauer-Lechner: the entire symphony should take about three quarters of an hour!
In his own score Mahler added this division: 15-10-11(:o)-8. Which makes 44 minutes in total.
No conductor manages to do that. However, Kubelik comes close.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 09:02:26 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 16, 2009, 06:26:07 AM
No Sarge, the last movement is about a child's view or heaven. It is one of the most uplifting movements Mahler ever wrote. Children do not see lamb and cattle being slaughtered as anything cruel or inhumane.
Indeed.
The lyrics were adapted from a folk song called Der Himmel hängt voll Geigen, which has a place in the Wunderhorn collection.
In this song, there are no concerns of the (adult) earthly life anymore. It's a peaceful environment, where no judgements are being made. Even King Herod is welcome, even though he is a butcher (very creative childlike thinking! :D). Food and drinks are free.

BTW: the original song is a religious song, written by a certain Peter Marcellus Sturm: Nach Kreuz und ausgestandenem Leiden. This song was sung in Bohemia (where Mahler was born) as a merry :) 'encore' after a Christmas play.

I think the main problem in interpreting 'old' texts is, that we tend to read them with our own 20th/21st eyes and/or spectacles. In earlier Christian days (not so long ago actually), death and the afterlife were considered as a Completion, and as a Redemption. Considering the roots of this particular text, I personally don't believe that Mahler saw this song as a deeply tragic one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 09:41:28 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 09:02:26 AM
Indeed.
The lyrics were adapted from a folk song called Der Himmel hängt voll Geigen, which has a place in the Wunderhorn collection.
In this song, there are no concerns of the (adult) earthly life anymore. It's a peaceful environment, where no judgements are being made. Even King Herod is welcome, even though he is a butcher (very creative childlike thinking! :D). Food and drinks are free.

BTW: the original song is a religious song, written by a certain Peter Marcellus Sturm: Nach Kreuz und ausgestandenem Leiden. This song was sung in Bohemia (where Mahler was born) as a merry :) 'encore' after a Christmas play.

I think the main problem in interpreting 'old' texts is, that we tend to read them with our own 20th/21st eyes and/or spectacles. In earlier Christian days (not so long ago actually), death and the afterlife were considered as a Completion, and as a Redemption. Considering the roots of this particular text, I personally don't believe that Mahler saw this song as a deeply tragic one.

But surely, in interpreting a text, considerations must be made of context and intention.

Especially as, in this case, the text is not read out, but rather sung in the accompaniment of music, and within a greater musical context (the other three movements of the symphony; the previous three symphonies, and the following five-plus-one).

More so, the author, who was not a child, therefore the song's use was necessarily metaphorical in some fashion,  had preceded the 4th symphony with a number of works dealing with death, futility and hopelessness before the inevitable (look at the desperate cry, Bereite dich zu leben! in the 2nd symphony; or the roaring ending of the 1st symphony grinding to a halt; or the dead soldier coming to his fiancee in Des Knaben Wunderhorn). Death was not a new subject to Mahler, nor was tragedy.

And for a grown man leading a life with much turmoil to return to his childhood in a work (from the very sleigh-bells that introduce it), one need not be altogether Freudian to speculate a deeper cause for providing a prima facie happy ending.


From a slightly different perspective, if this helps:

The loneliness of the slow movement is grown up. There is no child there, and I see no reason for perspective to be that of a 'child' for the last movement, if not to indicate something very particular. I also see no way in which a man of Mahler's intelligence would not perceive how otherwise inappropriately naive the song of the finale is, compared to the bipolar tone of the rest of the work.

The text aside, note the transitions between the verses, the idle little tune that doesn't seem to ever evolve like Mahler's material generally does. Then the ending of the movement (and the symphony), which could have been like the first movement's playfully upbeat 'pam POM', but it's not: the melody fades away. From his previous work, Mahler emerges as a songwriter particularly alert to how his songs end, so this cannot have been random. And a child's perfect heaven does not fade away.


And there you have why I generally stay out of discussions on the semantics of Romantic music. Sometimes it feels different ways of approaching these works are so disparate - and often so personal - as to be barely worth comparing or discussing.

However, on the topic of Mahler's deliberate use of existential irony and self-contradicting metaphor, I think the rest of his oeuvre, least of all the textually explicit Das Lied von der Erde, or the 9th symphony, supports me.


...


Or: either way, in the 4th symphony, the Mahler in my head considers the thing he needs the most in his life, the thing he can never retain, innocence, yearns for it, then lets it fade away, because it's already gone. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 16, 2009, 09:45:29 AM
I don't like that movement  :(

I feel like I got cheated. If I wanted a slow movement to end a symphony it better be something like the ending of the 3rd symphony with timpani, and half a dozen each of trombones, trumpets, and horns.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 09:46:01 AM
Quote from: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 09:41:28 AM



However, on the topic of Mahler's deliberate use of existential irony and self-contradicting metaphor, I think the rest of his oeuvre, least of all the textually explicit Das Lied von der Erde, or the 9th symphony, supports me...


Maybe. The problem is... Mahler doesn't.  ;D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 10:09:37 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 09:46:01 AM
Maybe. The problem is... Mahler doesn't.  ;D

How so? I hope for a note scribbled in the margin saying "I, Gustav Mahler, wrote this movement with a direct and un-metaphorical intention to express happiness and completeness as a perfect vision untarnished by adult concerns, and only that". ;D


More seriously, I would certainly be interested in his personal comments on the 4th symphony, if any; particularly on the slow movement. Or an explanation as to how Mahler suddenly exploded with irony and self-conscious allusion, after making it disappear between Des Knaben Wunderhorn and the 5th symphony. Was it failed anger management?


(The author of this post would like to explicitly indicate the presence of irony in the last two sentences. ;) >:D)


Edit: But let me put it beyond doubt that I am genuinely interested in what Mahler might have explicitly said about the 4th symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2009, 10:49:53 AM
Mahler inserted a note in the first edition directing that "The Heavenly Life" should be sung "with a childlike, cheerful expression, entirely without parody."  Make of that what you will.  The text itself is clear, as is this work and this movement as the summary statement of the Wonderhorn symphonies.  To me Mahler's great love and respect for the natural world and the spiritual certainty he sought as an antidote to the tragic ironies of the man-made world receives its tenderest expression here, sweeter than but perfectly consistent with the joyful power of, say, the Resurrection symphony and the deep serenity of the 9th...and where he was going with the 10th!

Of course, it's fundamentally nothing but music, just organized sounds with no intrinsic "meaning," only that which we bring to it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 10:56:37 AM
Quote from: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 10:09:37 AM
But let me put it beyond doubt that I am genuinely interested in what Mahler might have explicitly said about the 4th symphony.
At least that it should be played much faster.

For the rest: sure, it's tricky discussing the one and only and true explanation of the composer's meanings. And I also belong to those music lovers who tend to think in many cases it's 'just' music. Hence my little problem with 19th century romanticism.

But to me, the final song of the 4th is not a lament or a tragedy. There are too many quotations of Es sungen drei Engel for instance.
But maybe there are interprets who might suggest that this 5th part of Mahler 3 should be considered as very ironic or even depressive, too? ???

I can only say this: this almost continuously depressive and gloomy vision on Mahler, who apparently can only fake optimism with the help of irony or sarcasm, is certainly not mine. Sure, the 4th is another tense composition with irony and shadows, but the general idea is (IMHO) not pessimistic, and the final chords are heavenly to me.

But hey, I'm also one of those clowns who even consider Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen as a song of relief and redemption (has been discussed before in some Mahler thread, dunno where).
So pleaze, do not let my optimistic characterizations spoil any other's fun! ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on December 16, 2009, 11:08:43 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 10:56:37 AM
But hey, I'm also one of those clowns who even consider Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen as a song of relief and redemption

Send in the clowns...they uusually have a better grasp of things that the dolts who take themselves too seriously.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 11:25:21 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 16, 2009, 11:08:43 AM
Send in the clowns...they uusually have a better grasp of things that the dolts who take themselves too seriously.  ;D
Usually or sometimes .... ? ::)
Anyway, no offense meant to the more gloomy Mahler lovers. And I won't argue about the final chords of the 6th. ;D

But, being a member of this board and a Mahler lover, I thought: well, let's hear for something else about Number Four.

I once paid money for a Mahler 4 which was interpreted very dark, with slow tempi, and I felt utterly disappointed and empty afterwards. But of course there were others who loved it very much!
There's the objective art form called music for you! :)

EDIT: another thing.
To love or appreciate music, it's really not necessary to fully incorporate the 'orginal meaning' of the composer. I've been at too many lectures of poets, who were very happy with every other well-motivated explanation. It just proves the richness of language they used to say.
Let's celebrate the richness of music, then!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 09:41:28 AM
More so, the author, who was not a child, therefore the song's use was necessarily metaphorical in some fashion,  had preceded the 4th symphony with a number of works dealing with death, futility and hopelessness before the inevitable (look at the desperate cry, Bereite dich zu leben! in the 2nd symphony; [....]
Sorry for this late reaction, but to me there's nothing desperate about this bereite dich ....: it's a wake up call! With death your real life begins!

Mahler was deeply touched by the lyrics of Klopstock at Von Bulow's funeral, and rewrote them for his own use. Auferstehung has a terrifying beginning (first movement), but a glorious and positive ending, comparable to the final verses of the Stabat mater text. To me, although a bit too loud maybe ;), this final chorus is one of the most emotionally impressive comfort bringers I ever heard in music. Amen.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 12:59:42 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 16, 2009, 10:49:53 AM
Mahler inserted a note in the first edition directing that "The Heavenly Life" should be sung "with a childlike, cheerful expression, entirely without parody."  Make of that what you will.

Now that is evidence I won't contest.

Perhaps then a) certain performances of the symphony often grant it a subtext it was not intended to have, or b) I myself am straight-jacketing what seems to genuinely be an isolated case into a paradigm it does not belong to. Or a little of both.

Quote from: DavidRoss on December 16, 2009, 10:49:53 AM
Of course, it's fundamentally nothing but music, just organized sounds with no intrinsic "meaning," only that which we bring to it.

As is this sentence, though you can still read it and be informed as to my communicative intent by virtue of knowing a number of conventions on the use of symbols to represent sounds, and sounds to represent meaning.

Only of course, for music, we lack a common convention. I do see your point; which is why I put the 'Mahler in my head' proviso in the post above. From the moment we decode the sequence of sounds into something we can process, it is inevitably tainted by meaning.


Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 11:25:21 AM
To love or appreciate music, it's really not necessary to fully incorporate the 'orginal meaning' of the composer. I've been at too many lectures of poets, who were very happy with every other well-motivated explanation. It just proves the richness of language they used to say.
Let's celebrate the richness of music, then!

Absolutely, and hence why I responded to your opinion with my own, offering the suggestion that I think it might reflect Mahler's intention based on prior evidence as an explanation of why I've formed it (the opinion), rather than why you need accept it. :)

If I have been abrasive in the manner I've framed my views, that was not at all my intent.

I'm happy with my view of Mahler. But I'm happier yet with the possibility that Mahler was a more complex man than I can represent in any minimalist reduction of him with total accuracy; which would hold true for any real person. ;)


Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 12:52:52 PM
Sorry for this late reaction, but to me there's nothing desperate about this bereite dich ....: it's a wake up call! With death your real life begins!

Mahler was deeply touched by the lyrics of Klopstock at Von Bulow's funeral, and rewrote them for his own use. Auferstehung has a terrifying beginning (first movement), but a glorious and positive ending, comparable to the final verses of the Stabat mater text. Amen.

'Desperate' as in 'really wanting it to be true'. For me, the finale of the 2nd symphony affirms itself to such a constant extent as to make me think Mahler was trying to overwrite the demons of the third movement, more than address them.

You could say even say I think he was trying to do the same with the 4th's finale, even if he meant it literally.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 01:08:09 PM
Quote from: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 12:59:42 PM
'Desperate' as in 'really wanting it to be true'. For me, the finale of the 2nd symphony affirms itself to such a constant extent as to make me think Mahler was trying to overwrite the demons of the third movement, more than address them.

You could say even say I think he was trying to do the same with the 4th's finale, even if he meant it literally.

Dear Renfield, we both love our different Mahlers, me thinks. :)
I know I like mine and will be doing that, because I'm moved by all those naïve (IMO, that is) religious and divine views upon death and resurrection.
But of course believing can be wanting to believe.
So I just want to believe in that carefree Mahlerian child of Number Four, and also in that comforting adult of the Finale of the 2nd. 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 01:08:09 PM
So I just want to believe in that carefree Mahlerian child of Number Four, and also in that comforting adult of the Finale of the 2nd. 0:)

And maybe you are even the better listener for it! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on December 16, 2009, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 04:16:47 AM
Wow... where's the dying child coming from?  ;D
You don't think there is anything genuinely happy that Mahler ever wrote?

"This movement is about baby lambs  and little ducklings...
...
... ON THE WAY TO THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE!"


"This movement is about two children playing with their red rubber ball, laughing in the sunshine...
...
...TRYING TO COVER THEIR TEARS AS THEIR PARENTS ARE BEING BURIED.
ROFL, that's hilarious!  ;D

Just so everyone knows, I love the Mahler 4th. Sure, it's pretty much sunshine all the way through (and I usually despise that), but it just sounds good somehow.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2009, 02:40:49 AM
Quote from: Renfield on December 16, 2009, 10:09:37 AM
Edit: But let me put it beyond doubt that I am genuinely interested in what Mahler might have explicitly said about the 4th symphony.

He refused to give the symphony a specific program but here are a few things he said about it (all quotes taken from La Grange's second volume; Mahler's words in italics):

He defined the basic mood of the symphony as the uniform blue sky which is harder to suggest than any changing and contrasting tints. But sometimes the atmosphere darkens and grows strangely terrifying. Not that the sky itself clouds over: it goes on shining with its everlasting blue. But we suddenly become afraid of it, just as on a brilliant day in the sun-dappled forest one is often overcome by a panic terror.

....a gaiety coming from another sphere, and hence terrifying for humans: only a child can understand and explain it in the end: a child who already belongs to this superior world [i.e., the kid's dead]

The second movement originally bore the subtitle Death strikes up a dance for us; he strokes the fiddle most strangely and plays us up to heaven. The Scherzo is mysterious, confused, uncanny. It will make your hair stand on end.

About the Adagio: A melody both divinely gay and deeply sad pervaded the whole movement. He likens the movement to the faces on prone statues of old knights and prelates one sees lying in churches; a peaceful gentle expression of men who have gained acces to a higher bliss...such is the character of this movement, which also has deeply sad moments, comparable to reminiscences of earthly life... While composing the Adagio he could sometimes see his mother's face as she smiled through her tears.

In the radiant final tutti of the movement, the opening of the gates of heaven, the atmosphere becomes catholic, almost churchlike.

For the Finale Mahler gave no program other than the text itself.

Sarge

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2009, 02:49:38 AM
Quote from: Marc on December 16, 2009, 10:56:37 AM
But maybe there are interprets who might suggest that this 5th part of Mahler 3 should be considered as very ironic or even depressive, too? ???

Yes there are. Mitropoulos and Levine are two who bring out a very dark element in this music.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2009, 03:14:45 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 16, 2009, 07:23:41 AM
My German is a bit rusty. The difference is "We enjoy the heavenly pleasures" instead of "We will enjoy the heavenly pleasures".

Yes, that's right.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2009, 03:32:03 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on December 16, 2009, 10:49:53 AM
Of course, it's fundamentally nothing but music, just organized sounds with no intrinsic "meaning," only that which we bring to it.

Well....yes, but the Romantics did talk about their music in extramusical terms. Maybe Brahms didn't think his music had "meaning" but I'm sure Schumann did, and Mahler too. But you're right. We bring our own baggage to the music. I don't know Renfield's religious views but as a lapsed Lutheran I get no comfort in imagining a heaven with streets paved in gold. I don't think that awaits us after death. Mahler's vision of a child's heaven likewise gives me no comfort. If he actually meant it literally, then it's nothing but kitsch. Very, very beautfiul kitsch but kitsch nonetheless (kitsch defined as banal art that euphemizes life so we won't be troubled by unpleasant realities). Mahler's own words reinforce the view that the Fourth is not all unalloyed joy. As in all his works, there are contradictions, fears even terror in this music. We can pretend a dead child is happy but I think Mahler knew better. Witness his Kindertotenlieder.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on December 17, 2009, 07:11:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2009, 02:40:49 AM
The second movement originally bore the subtitle Death strikes up a dance for us; he strokes the fiddle most strangely and plays us up to heaven. The Scherzo is mysterious, confused, uncanny. It will make your hair stand on end.

About the Adagio: A melody both divinely gay and deeply sad pervaded the whole movement. He likens the movement to the faces on prone statues of old knights and prelates one sees lying in churches; a peaceful gentle expression of men who have gained acces to a higher bliss...such is the character of this movement, which also has deeply sad moments, comparable to reminiscences of earthly life... While composing the Adagio he could sometimes see his mother's face as she smiled through her tears.

In the radiant final tutti of the movement, the opening of the gates of heaven, the atmosphere becomes catholic, almost churchlike.

Yes!

So it does appear 'my' Mahler is not entirely fabricated; or at least, this is very close to my personal impressions of these movements.

In this context, the quote DavidRoss have above might be more exclusively related to establishing dramatic tone, vs. indicating how Mahler intended his own 'author's voice' to come out in the final movement. Food for thought. Thanks Sarge. :)


As for my religious views, suffice it to say I do not live my days towards eternal salvation in a blaze of heavenly glory.

In fact, it's the 'yes and no' way I myself respond to religious music that most makes me feel Mahler's own particular way of expressing his 'conviction' of a peaceful afterlife is not entirely literal; or at the very least not entirely unalloyed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on December 17, 2009, 02:31:02 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2009, 03:32:03 AM
We can pretend a dead child is happy but I think Mahler knew better. Witness his Kindertotenlieder.
The Kindertotenlieder were written by Rückert, after he lost two children. They are mainly about the father's sadness.

The living persons who are left behind are very sad and lamenting, because they are missing their beloved one(s).

The dead person is believed to be happy, for he/she has gained eternal life in paradise. Witness the end of Mahler's fifth selection of Rückert's Kindertotenlieder:
In this weather, in this gale, in this windy storm,
they rest as if in their mother's house:
frightened by no storm,
sheltered by the hand of God.

If your sins will be forgiven, this is also accessible to, and even the ultimate goal for all Christians, even Lutherans ;). Witness Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin.

Though not for lapsed ones: those who once acknowledged the Lord, but decided to go back on Him, are certain of a one-way-ticket to hell, when the Day arrives. Witness the Holy Bible.

Sarge, you and I will share our afterlife together! ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 18, 2009, 09:07:47 AM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Gustav_Mahler_9_2.png)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1518 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1518)


(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Klimt_The_Tree_of_Life_Stoclet_Frieze_D-GK2107.jpg)
Klimt, "Tree of Life", Stoclet Frieze

The font used in the title is "ITC Stocklet Bold"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on December 20, 2009, 04:14:28 PM
Just listened to Mahler 5, the Vaclav Neumann recording with the Gewandhaus orchestra, a recent reissue by Brilliant Classics.  What a wonderful performance!  Lively, expressive, well balanced, with good, perhaps somewhat dry sound.  Lots of little insights upon listening (which is a tall order, given how many times I have heard this symphony).  It is a great shame that the cycle this recording comes from is not available on CD.  Hopefully Brilliant Classics will follow up on this one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 21, 2009, 04:21:18 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 20, 2009, 04:14:28 PM
  It is a great shame that the cycle this recording comes from is not available on CD.  Hopefully Brilliant Classics will follow up on this one.

I'm a little confused. Is there a complete Neumann/Leipzig cycle? He did a complete cycle later with the CzPO (on Supraphon), but I don't know if that's currently available.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 21, 2009, 05:14:16 AM
Quote from: Velimir on December 21, 2009, 04:21:18 AM
I'm a little confused. Is there a complete Neumann/Leipzig cycle? He did a complete cycle later with the CzPO (on Supraphon), but I don't know if that's currently available.

I, too, am not aware of a Neumann/Leipzig cycle. The Supraphon cycle, however, is available in a neat slim box:

(http://www.qualiton.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/334/334_3880.jpg)

Mahler,
Complete Symphonies
Vaclav Neumann / CzPO
Supraphon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FIHZPK?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000FIHZPK)
Quote from: jlaurson on December 18, 2009, 09:07:47 AM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Gustav_Mahler_9_2.png)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1518 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1518)


(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Klimt_The_Tree_of_Life_Stoclet_Frieze_D-GK2107.jpg)
Klimt, "Tree of Life", Stoclet Frieze

The font used in the title is "ITC Stocklet Bold"


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on December 21, 2009, 06:07:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 21, 2009, 05:14:16 AM
I, too, am not aware of a Neumann/Leipzig cycle. The Supraphon cycle, however, is available in a neat slim box:

(http://www.qualiton.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/334/334_3880.jpg)

Mahler,
Complete Symphonies
Vaclav Neumann / CzPO
Supraphon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FIHZPK?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000FIHZPK)

My mistake, not a complete cycle with the Gewandhaus, but I think he did 5, 6, 7 and 9, at least.  I have 5 and 9. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 25, 2009, 07:57:28 AM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Gustav_Mahler_10.png)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 1) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1535 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1535)


(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Mahler-10thSymphony_caption1.png)


The font used in the title is "Auriol Roman"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 29, 2009, 01:04:43 PM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Gustav_Mahler_10_2.png)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1561 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1561)



The font used in the title is "ITC Franklin Gothic"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on December 29, 2009, 02:21:24 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on December 29, 2009, 01:04:43 PM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Gustav_Mahler_10_2.png)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1561 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1561)



The font used in the title is "ITC Franklin Gothic"

I have been enjoying your Mahler surveys as of late, and hopefully in the near future I can go into greater detail over your recording choices in these surveys, many of which I agree with, especially your Mahler 9 choices.


For my taste my favorite Mahler 10's are the Slatkin/Mazetti I on RCA and the Chailly recording.  These recordings sound the most coherent to me, but I wouldn't want to live without any of the recordings of the M10.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 02, 2010, 10:07:23 AM

All the links to the complete Mahler survey
and all my top choices (favorite two + fav.
SACD) in one place:


Mahler Survey

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html)


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on January 02, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
Greetings Jens
Solti is almost universally looked down upon today for Mahler......the common line passed down by critics (and repeated by many who haven't even heard them) is fast superficial reading with no depth or spiritual insights, fortunately I listen for myself despite the critics.  :)

The reference Mahler 2nd is Solti/CSO recorded at Medinah temple in Chicago...........a tremendously powerful vision of the apocalypse final scence, nothing else comes close to it for me..........

Sinopoli's 5th is my favorite performance of his DG cycle, tremendously powerful and dramatic

Horenstein only really worked for Mahler 1,3,8  again he is of a bygone era and does not have modern sound so he is often passed by for the critics darling flavor of the month new SACD recording (not referring to you BTW)

Oue's 6th is extremely hard to get, member Bunny found it originally a few years ago, had to order from HMV Japan  from obscure label Fontec
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 03, 2010, 08:02:27 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on January 02, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
Oue's 6th is extremely hard to get, member Bunny found it originally a few years ago, had to order from HMV Japan  from obscure label Fontec

That was quite a find. Bunny was absolutely right about that performance. The only reason it isn't in my top three is because I don't own a hard copy.

Quote from: jlaurson on January 02, 2010, 11:01:12 AM
I've always found Sinopoli's 5th one of the weak ones in his otherwise excellent cycle.

I agree. In fact I was so disappointed by that performance it put me off Sinopoli's Mahler for twenty years. I've only recently become acquainted with his cycle as a whole and it's become my second favorite (Chailly being my first choice). Still don't like his Fifth though. One problem I have with it: I want a condutor to make a meal of the chorale theme in the second and last movements. Sinopoli breezes right through it; I hear and feel no sense of awe and elation.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 03, 2010, 09:21:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 03, 2010, 08:34:52 AMWe're going to have to have it out about Szell's Sixth though. Your comments did (almost) rattle my cage  ;D 

I thought it might.  ;D I was disappointed after your praise to hear it as a rather flimsy performance. I will, undoubtedly, give it many a second, third, and fourth chance to hear what it is you hear in it.

QuoteKaplan's Second: absolutely the finest Second. I believe that if anyone heard this blind, not knowing that it was an "amateur" conductor, they would rate it as highly as I do. In fact, many critics, and ordinary folk like me, do rate it highly. It's not just me and papy  ;D

I liked it--and praised it--when it came out. But I found Boulez' recording to achieve everything Kaplan does, and then some. I don't hate it, like the "bold" red might suggest. It's just emphatically not my first choice.

QuoteKlemperer's Seventh: not a recommendation. I don't expect anyone else to like it but I love the sound of his fist conducting.

I kind of like it for its extremely personal approach. Also a very Meistersingerish finale. But what a first movement, oy veh... will it ever end?

QuoteUnfortunately I can't debate further right now. Mrs. Rock is displaying signs of hunger so I'd better get her fed before she becomes unruly. Later.

Do go and feed her. Hungry women looming is not a good thing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 04, 2010, 11:07:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 03, 2010, 08:34:52 AM

Kaplan's Second: absolutely the finest Second. I believe that if anyone heard this blind, not knowing that it was an "amateur" conductor, they would rate it as highly as I do. In fact, many critics, and ordinary folk like me, do rate it highly. It's not just me and papy  ;D


you called ?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 04, 2010, 05:48:06 PM
Thanks for the invite, Jens. But I don't think it would add much to your excellent blog. Besides, adding a comment and not bothering to follow up is not really useful, nor elegant, non?.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on January 05, 2010, 07:12:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 05, 2010, 06:23:49 AM
And then my reviews were more than just a list of ten names. I hope.

But of course, very nice page design.

Quote from: jlaurson on January 05, 2010, 06:23:49 AM
2.) Fine choices. (<-- "fine" is measured by the extend to which you agree with me, of course.  ;D)

Of course, don't we all. But do try to hear Walter's live 1953 4th on Tahra, singing is expectedly better than on his studio recording, but so is the sound, unexpectedly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 05, 2010, 07:45:48 AM
Quote from: Drasko on January 05, 2010, 07:12:08 AM
But of course, very nice page design.


I think we are talking at cross purposes. I don't mean my mere "laundry list" at ionarts.
That only exists to link to the 24 essays I wrote about Mahler and the recordings I chose.
(At WETA.)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 05, 2010, 12:26:33 PM
Has anyone heard anything off this set ?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51x7ymp-4rL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)


there are only some short samples of the M1 on the JPC website - the 4th mvt doesn't take any prisoners by the looks of things :

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/5566725 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/5566725)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on January 22, 2010, 02:26:29 PM
A friend posted this link on Facebook.  There's a lot there, almost all pretty hilarious.  Check out the descriptions of the symphonies near the end. 

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gustav_Mahler

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on January 22, 2010, 02:44:00 PM
I skimmed over that one before, but now I'm glad I actually took the time to read through. Brilliant!  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on January 22, 2010, 03:24:00 PM
Well Leo K, an interesting dream Mahler cycle.  Took me a long time to figure it all out, and at any given time things can changed around again.  My favourite 3 cycles I love for different reasons.

1. Inbals Cycle - FRSO - first because it it robust, resonant AND he brings to every symphony a narrative you just don't get with so many interpretations.

2. Neumann - CzPO - You can hear within this cycle some of the finest Mahler ever played.

3. Tennstedt - LPO - Mahler for Mahlerians.

:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 22, 2010, 03:45:38 PM
Quote from: bhodges on January 22, 2010, 02:26:29 PM
A friend posted this link on Facebook.  There's a lot there, almost all pretty hilarious.  Check out the descriptions of the symphonies near the end. 

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gustav_Mahler
Thanks for the link. I'll bookmark it. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 22, 2010, 10:39:35 PM
Bruce, I especially enjoyed this remark....

'He would complete a symphony roughly every two years, and then inflict it on the Vienna Philharmonic for rehearsals during the next season, only to grant the premiere to another unsuspecting city that had utterly no clue what it was in for.'


Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on January 23, 2010, 12:59:54 AM
Quote from: bhodges on January 22, 2010, 02:26:29 PM
A friend posted this link on Facebook.  There's a lot there, almost all pretty hilarious.  Check out the descriptions of the symphonies near the end. 
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gustav_Mahler

That was a fun read. You don't hear many übermorose orchestras these days...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 23, 2010, 01:11:30 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on January 23, 2010, 12:59:54 AM
That was a fun read. You don't hear many übermorose orchestras these days...

Have to say that my contact with them indicated that übermorose was the default setting.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on January 24, 2010, 01:50:38 AM
Quote from: bhodges on January 22, 2010, 02:26:29 PM
A friend posted this link on Facebook.  There's a lot there, almost all pretty hilarious.  Check out the descriptions of the symphonies near the end. 
Amusing, Bruce, though ironically suffering the same flaw as its subject, insufficient use of the blue pencil.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 24, 2010, 02:25:49 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 24, 2010, 01:50:38 AM
Amusing, Bruce, though ironically suffering the same flaw as its subject, insufficient use of the blue pencil.  ;)

Precisely my thoughts.  :D
I was looking for the thumbs-up button on your comment, but forgot this isn't facebook.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Christo on February 09, 2010, 11:14:22 AM
Quote6. Mahler: Symphony No. 2 "Resurrection"; Bernard Hatink conducts the Cleveland, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Staatskapelle Dresden, Philharmonia, Lahti, Berlin Philharmonic, St. Louis, St. Petersburg, Tokyo Metropolitan, Toronto, Warsaw, and European Youth orchestras (all proprietary labels).
Even though he has recorded this symphony four or five times already, Bernard Haitink has decided to take advantage of the recent trend of orchestras producing their own recordings. He has reportedly demanded as part of his contract that they release every performance of Mahler's Second Symphony that he conducts. That means we should get at least 13 new versions in 2010. Haitink's avowed goal is to "Let the music speak for itself," and to ensure that every performance sounds as much like every other as possible. His motto: "Consistency through anonymity." Mahlerians, take note.

(2010: Preview of Major Upcoming Releases by David Hurwitz, Classicstoday.com)  :D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 09, 2010, 12:23:09 PM
Quote from: Christo on February 09, 2010, 11:14:22 AM
(2010: Preview of Major Upcoming Releases by David Hurwitz, Classicstoday.com)  :D

Except it's not funny, it's disrespectful shite; even lower than the crap Lebrecht writes. That's what happens, if you never get out of your apartment: distorted character.
I read a lot of BS by that guy and figure... "it's his shtick". But this was just inane.

Anyway, on-topic:

Mahler Cycle | Concertgebouw | Jansons | M3

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-mahler-cycle.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-mahler-cycle.html)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/S3GouoiUQFI/AAAAAAAABAs/7P60HJsRr5g/s400/Mahler_RCO_2009_10_11.png)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 09, 2010, 01:40:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 09, 2010, 12:23:09 PM
Except it's not funny, it's disrespectful shite; even lower than the crap Lebrecht writes. That's what happens, if you never get out of your apartment: distorted character.
I read a lot of BS by that guy and figure... "it's his shtick". But this was just inane.
This is a new low, indeed, for that pompous turd.  He's sinking into the territory of bottom-feeders like AC/DC Dougie and the Corkster.  Must have gone off his meds.  (Just what is the proper medication protocol for fatheads these days?) 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Christo on February 10, 2010, 01:54:57 AM
I'm surprised. I find David Hurwitz sometimes opiniated, but always entertaining and never short of arguments. As about my compatriot Haitink ... he's simply right, imho

(runs away)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 10, 2010, 02:49:53 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 09, 2010, 01:40:32 PM
This is a new low, indeed, for that pompous turd.

Quote from: Christo on February 10, 2010, 01:54:57 AM
I find David Hurwitz sometimes opiniated, but always entertaining and never short of arguments.

I have mixed feelings about the Hurwitzer. Sure, he's obnoxious, but sometimes he hits the nail on the head. Plus, I'm grateful for some of his recs of composers and discs.

He wrote some good stuff when he was with Fanfare ages ago, before he started up his website.

As for the Haitink bit, it's satire. Heavy-handed as is his style, but I'm not going to get outraged over it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2010, 04:42:12 AM
Quote from: Velimir on February 10, 2010, 02:49:53 AM
I have mixed feelings about the Hurwitzer. Sure, he's obnoxious, but sometimes he hits the nail on the head. Plus, I'm grateful for some of his recs of composers and discs.

How is 'hitting the nail on the head sometimes' an excuse or even mitigating circumstance for being obnoxious? As if somehow he had to be obnoxious to be correct a few times? We're not complaining about everything about him... just the obnoxious part.

Quote

As for the Haitink bit, it's satire. Heavy-handed as is his style, but I'm not going to get outraged over it.

No shit, Sherlock. Satire? Like the satire of Rush Limbaugh. Worse. It's not funny. And it's not even correct in the sense that it mis-assumes underlying causes and motivations (as if it was Haitink who wanted his interpretations recorded; that's BS right there). And satire that  is not rooted in truth but snarkiness alone, and then manages to be unfunny...

By the way, this is just one entry in a string of 10 or 12 other bits all along those line, painfully, excruciatingly shitty pseudo-satire.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 14, 2010, 07:12:59 AM
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/1113907 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/1113907)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 14, 2010, 07:24:48 AM
Quote from: papy on February 14, 2010, 07:12:59 AM
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/1113907 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/1113907)
Put this in big bold letters!  One of the best bargains I've ever seen.  Lenny's DGG cycle, for which I paid more than twice as much and still thought it a bargain!

Anyone who does not own these recordings should jump on this one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2010, 07:33:44 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 14, 2010, 07:24:48 AM
Put this in big bold letters!  One of the best bargains I've ever seen.  Lenny's DGG cycle, for which I paid more than twice as much and still thought it a bargain!

Anyone who does not own these recordings should jump on this one.

To the US MDT might be cheaper, in view of generally high shipping costs from Germany to the US.

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//4778668.htm
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 14, 2010, 07:54:30 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 14, 2010, 07:24:48 AM
Put this in big bold letters!

YES SIR !  :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 14, 2010, 07:59:47 AM
Actually I'm glad that Dave did put it in bold, I don't have those recordings anymore but they are superb a bargain priced rerelease is just what the Dr ordered. :)  Well it would be anyway if I had a shrink that was also a Mahlerian. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2010, 08:06:02 AM
I checked.  jpc wants 12.99 Euros to ship, MDT 4.50 pounds.   All told, $57 from jpc, $53 from mdt (to the US) taking into account taxes, shipping and currency conversion.

I notice that Amazon lists the set as a pre-order at $59.99.  When it is finally released, I expect marketplace sellers to undercut that by a substantial margin.   I might spring for it, depending on how low it goes.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 14, 2010, 09:22:57 AM
Some of these recordings are inspired, but the set as a whole is very uneven. In a few instances Bernstein doesn't quite recapture the excitement and elation of previous NY recordings (2, 3, 6, 7). Elsewhere, some strange choices relegate his recording to an apendix to one's collection (4). In 8 the technical shortcomings are too pronounced to be ignored. Listen to the level of hiss  at the beginning of part II, or the absurdly high level at which the soloists have been recorded ("Blicket auf" is much too loud, as far as could be from what it really sounds like in the concert hall). That's a pity, because Bernstein has great things to say, and he is at a stage in his carreer where his love of the music transcends his love for himself. Symphonies 1 and 9 have a sort of distinction that puts the whole production on a special plane, one where interpretive choices cease to be a matter of discussion.

Chailly's cycle comes at about 40-45$ if one is willing to pick it up at the record store. But admittedly it's not as characterful.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 14, 2010, 09:28:21 AM
Quote from: Barak on February 14, 2010, 09:22:57 AM
Some of these recordings are inspired, but the set as a whole is very uneven. In a few instances Bernstein doesn't quite recapture the excitement and elation of previous NY recordings (2, 3, 6, 7).

Agree on 2, but actually think that #3 doesn't vary that much between the two cycles.  And #6 and 7 are revelatory, the deepest recordings of these pieces that exist.  He might have adopted slow tempos, but it would be hard to find more dramatic readings. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 12:17:34 PM
Quote from: Barak on February 14, 2010, 09:22:57 AM
Some of these recordings are inspired, but the set as a whole is very uneven. In a few instances Bernstein doesn't quite recapture the excitement and elation of previous NY recordings (2, 3, 6, 7). Elsewhere, some strange choices relegate his recording to an apendix to one's collection (4). In 8 the technical shortcomings are too pronounced to be ignored.

Quite right my friend, the only 1980s Bernstein DG versions that equal or surpass the original Sony set are symphonies 1,5 and those can easily and cheaply be picked up on a 2CD DG panorama release. Perfect example of late period Bernstein excess is the glacial pacing of DG 9th at 89 minutes vs Sony 9th at 80 minutes

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417HC8X8YPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I do like the art deco artwork for the individual DG releases but musically I prefer Sony performances
(except 1,5 as noted)

Also mention I kinda like Bernstein's choice of boy to sing "childs view of heaven" in DG 4th, although many are critical of this liberty


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 14, 2010, 01:37:02 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 14, 2010, 09:28:21 AM
Agree on 2, but actually think that #3 doesn't vary that much between the two cycles.  And #6 and 7 are revelatory, the deepest recordings of these pieces that exist.  He might have adopted slow tempos, but it would be hard to find more dramatic readings. :)
Agree, except for your evaluation of 2, which I think one of the finest in the entire catalog.

Quote from: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 12:17:34 PMthe only 1980s Bernstein DG versions that equal or surpass the original Sony set are symphonies 1,5 and those can easily and cheaply be picked up on a 2CD DG panorama release.

Also mention I kinda like Bernstein's choice of boy to sing "childs view of heaven" in DG 4th, although many are critical of this liberty
Agree about 1 & 5, disagree about the rest.  I like the RCO 4th except for Helmut Wittek.

Note these preferences are all matters of opinion.  To me, if you're gonna go for Lenny's interventionist heart-on-sleeve milk-it-for-all-it's-worth interpretations, then go all the way, as he did in the later recordings.  Others' preferences may differ...but they are still just preferences!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on February 14, 2010, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on February 14, 2010, 07:24:48 AM
Put this in big bold letters!  One of the best bargains I've ever seen.  Lenny's DGG cycle, for which I paid more than twice as much and still thought it a bargain!

Twice as much but for box one third bigger, 16 CDs as opposed to 11 CDs. The new box I believe doesn't include any of the lieder, nor Das Lied von der Erde. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 02:07:22 PM
Btw my preference for the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony set does not diminish the overall greatness of the DG set, which if Sony set did not exist DG set would still have to rank as one of the top 2-3 complete sets of all time, a magnificent acheivement.........

Fortunately the later DG set was well documented on film, I love watching the mad scientist Lenny completely in his element unleashing the hounds for final movement of 7th symphony.....no one today is this animated on the podium, where have the great ones gone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjsF9a96I0k&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjsF9a96I0k&feature=related)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 14, 2010, 02:08:26 PM
Obviously, the true Mahlerite needs both cycles  ;D  No, seriously. I prefer the DG 1, 2, 5, 6 and 8, the Sony 3, 4, 7 and 9.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 14, 2010, 02:15:35 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 14, 2010, 02:08:26 PM
Obviously, the true Mahlerite needs both cycles  ;D  No, seriously. I prefer the DG 1, 2, 5, 6 and 8, the Sony 3, 4, 7 and 9.

Sarge

I agree on all those. And regardless of what one's final preference is, Lennie's DG 7 is still an important (ought-to-have-heard) recording, too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 02:40:14 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516pw85rfpL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It's not all good news, there is a catch.........

In order to compress the DG set down to 11 CDs they will have to resort to putting segements of two symphonies on 1 CD for most of the discs, I never like that but that's the only way to fit them on 11 CDs, will be kinda helter skelter

These DG symphonies usually require 2 CDs:

S2 - 93 minutes
S3 - 106
S6 - 84
S7 - 82
S8 - 83
S9 - 89
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 02:54:05 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 02:40:14 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516pw85rfpL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It's not all good news, there is a catch.........

In order to compress the DG set down to 11 CDs they will have to resort to putting segements of two symphonies on 1 CD for most of the discs, I never like that but that's the only way to fit them on 11 CDs, will be kinda helter skelter

These DG symphonies usually require 2 CDs:

S2 - 93 minutes
S3 - 106
S6 - 84
S7 - 82
S8 - 83
S9 - 89

The previous release of symphonies only set from the DG set required 13 CDs, so it will be interesting to see how they divide them up now to fit on only 11 Cds.......

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J4DT8SH9L._SL500_AA240_.gif)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 14, 2010, 02:56:56 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 02:40:14 PM
In order to compress the DG set down to 11 CDs they will have to resort to putting segements of two symphonies on 1 CD for most of the discs, I never like that but that's the only way to fit them on 11 CDs, will be kinda helter skelter


These DG symphonies require 2 CDs:

S2 - 93 minutes
S3 - 106
S6 - 84
S7 - 82
S8 - 83
S9 - 89

If that was the case, I'd hate it. I hate starting a disc on something other than track 1... and it's not necessary. An additional disc costs less than the translator's fee.
Perhaps the DG engineers, who know how to put 83.5 minutes on one disc (see Thielemann's Bruckner 5), have managed to get the 6th??, well possibly the 7th, maybe the 8th on one disc?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 03:03:15 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 14, 2010, 02:56:56 PM
If that was the case, I'd hate it. I hate starting a disc on something other than track 1... and it's not necessary. An additional disc costs less than the translator's fee.
Perhaps the DG engineers, who know how to put 83.5 minutes on one disc (see Thielemann's Bruckner 5), have managed to get the 6th??, well possibly the 7th, maybe the 8th on one disc?

That would surely help.......
I wonder how they manage to go beyond the 80 minute mark for CD format, what is the trick?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on February 14, 2010, 03:04:38 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 14, 2010, 02:56:56 PM
Perhaps the DG engineers, who know how to put 83.5 minutes on one disc (see Thielemann's Bruckner 5), have managed to get the 6th??, well possibly the 7th, maybe the 8th on one disc?

No.

QuoteTrack List    CD 1: Mahler: Symphonies Nos.1 & 2, Movement 1

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.1 in D
1      1. Langsam. Schleppend   [16:28]    
2      2. Kräftig bewegt   [9:01]    
3      3. Feierlich und gemessen, ohne zu schleppen   [10:27]    
4      4. Stürmisch bewegt   [20:10]    
      Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Leonard Bernstein   

   Symphony No.2 in C minor - "Resurrection"
5      1: Allegro maestoso (Totenfeier)   [25:01]    
      New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein   

Total Playing Time [1:21:07]

   CD 2: Mahler: Symphony No.2, Movement 2 - 5

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.2 in C minor - "Resurrection"
1      2: Andante moderato   [12:19]    
2      3: (Scherzo)   [11:26]    
      New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein   

   4: "Urlicht"
3      Sehr feierlich, aber schlicht - "O Röslein rot"   [6:19]    
      Christa Ludwig, New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein   

4      5: Im Tempo des Scherzo   [38:42]    
      Barbara Hendricks, Christa Ludwig, New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein, The Westminster Choir, Joseph Flummerfelt   

Total Playing Time [1:08:46]

   CD 3: Mahler: Symphony No.3, Movement 1 - 3

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.3 in D minor
   Part 1
1      1. Kräftig. Entscheiden   [34:52]    
   Part 2
2      2. Tempo di minuetto. Sehr mäßig   [10:46]    
3      3. Comodo. Scherzando. Ohne Hast   [18:32]    
      New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein   

Total Playing Time [1:04:10]

   CD 4: Mahler: Symphonies Nos.3, Movement 4 - 6 & 6, Movement 1 + 2

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.3 in D minor
   Part 2
1      4. Sehr langsam. Misterioso: "O Mensch! Gib acht!" 'O Mensch! Gib acht'   [9:32]    
      Christa Ludwig, New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein   

2      5. Lustig im Tempo und keck im Ausdruck: "Bimm Bamm. Es sungen drei Engel"   [4:07]    
      Christa Ludwig, New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein, New York Choral Artists, Joseph Flummerfelt, Brooklyn Boys Chorus, James McCarthy   

3      6. Langsam. Ruhevoll. Empfunden   [27:59]    
      New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein   

   Symphony No.6 in A minor
4      1. Allegro energico, ma non troppo. Heftig aber Markig   [23:12]    
5      2. Scherzo (Wuchtig)   [14:17]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein   

Total Playing Time [1:19:07]

   CD 5: Mahler: Symphonies Nos.6, Movement 3 + 4 & 9, Movement 1

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.6 in A minor
1      3. Andante moderato   [16:20]    
2      4. Finale (Allegro moderato)   [33:06]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein   

   Symphony No.9 in D
3      1. Andante comodo   [29:58]    
      Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Leonard Bernstein   

Total Playing Time [1:19:24]

   CD 6: Mahler: Symphony No.9, Movement 2 - 4

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.9 in D
1      2. Im Tempo eines gemächlichen Ländlers. Etwas täppisch und sehr derb -   [17:31]    
2      3. Rondo. Burleske (Allegro assai. Sehr trotzig -   [11:51]    
3      4. Adagio (Sehr langsam)   [29:43]    
      Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Leonard Bernstein   

Total Playing Time [59:05]

   CD 7: Mahler: Symphony No.5

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.5 in C sharp minor
1      1. Trauermarsch (In gemessenem Schritt. Streng. Wie ein Kondukt - Plötzlich schneller. Leidenschaftlich. Wild - Tempo I)   [14:35]    
2      2. Stürmisch bewegt. Mit größter Vehemenz - Bedeutend langsamer - Tempo I subito   [15:05]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein   

3      3. Scherzo (Kräftig, nicht zu schnell)   [19:05]    
      Friedrich Pfeiffer, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein   

4      4. Adagietto (Sehr langsam)   [11:16]    
5      5. Rondo-Finale (Allegro)   [15:02]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein   

Total Playing Time [1:15:03]

   CD 8: Mahler: Symphony No.7, Movement 1 - 4

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.7 in E minor
1      1. Langsam (Adagio)   [21:38]    
2      2. Nachtmusik (Allegro moderato)   [17:08]    
3      3. Scherzo   [10:32]    
4      4. Nachtmusik (Andante amoroso)   [14:47]    
      New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein   

Total Playing Time [1:04:05]

   CD 9: Mahler: Symphonies Nos.7, Movement 5 & 4

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.7 in E minor
1      5. Rondo - Finale (Allegro ordinario - Allegro moderato ma energico)   [18:24]    
      New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein   

   Symphony No.4 in G
2      1. Bedächtig. Nicht eilen - Recht gemächlich   [17:37]    
3      2. In gemächlicher Bewegung. Ohne Hast   [10:12]    
4      3. Ruhevoll (Poco adagio)   [20:32]    
      Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Leonard Bernstein, Jaap van Zweden   

5      4. Sehr behaglich: "Wir genießen die himmlischen Freuden"   [8:44]    
      Helmut Wittek, Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Leonard Bernstein, Jaap van Zweden   

Total Playing Time [1:15:29]

   CD 10: Mahler: Symphonies Nos.10 & 8, Part 1

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.10 in F sharp (unfinished)
1      Andante - Adagio   [26:03]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein   

   Symphony No.8 in E flat - "Symphony of a Thousand"
   Part One: Hymnus "Veni creator spiritus"
2      "Veni creator spiritus"   [1:31]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

3      "Imple superna gratia"   [3:16]    
      Margaret Price, Kenneth Riegel, Judith Blegen, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Hermann Prey, José van Dam, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

4      "Infirma nostri corporis"   [2:44]    
      Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Kenneth Riegel, José van Dam, Hermann Prey, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

5      Tempo I. (Allegro, etwas hastig)   [1:14]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz   

6      "Infirma nostri corporis"   [3:15]    
      José van Dam, Kenneth Riegel, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Hermann Prey, Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz   

7      "Accende lumen sensibus"   [4:24]    
      Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Kenneth Riegel, Hermann Prey, José van Dam, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Wiener Sängerknaben, Uwe Theimer, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

8      Veni, creator spiritus   [4:27]    
      Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Kenneth Riegel, Hermann Prey, José van Dam, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer, Wiener Sängerknaben, Uwe Theimer   

9      "Gloria sit Patri Domino"   [3:22]    
      Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Kenneth Riegel, Hermann Prey, José van Dam, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Wiener Sängerknaben, Uwe Theimer, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

Total Playing Time [50:16]

   CD 11: Mahler: Symphony No.8, Part 2

      Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)
   Symphony No.8 in E flat - "Symphony of a Thousand"
   Part Two: Final scene from Goethe's "Faust"
1      Poco adagio   [6:26]    
2      Più mosso (Allegro moderato)   [3:05]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz   

3      "Waldung, sie schwankt heran"   [4:32]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

4      "Ewiger Wonnebrand"   [1:36]    
      Hermann Prey, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz   

5      "Wie Felsenabgrund mir zu Füßen"   [4:30]    
      José van Dam, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz   

6      "Gerettet ist das edle Glied" - "Hände verschlinget"   [1:06]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer, Wiener Sängerknaben, Uwe Theimer   

7      "Jene Rosen, aus den Händen"   [1:50]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll   

8      "Uns bleibt ein Erdenrest"   [2:23]    
      Trudeliese Schmidt, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

9      "Ich spür' soeben" - "Freudig empfangen wir" - "Hier ist die Aussicht frei"   [1:22]    
      Kenneth Riegel, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Sängerknaben, Uwe Theimer   

10      "Höchste Herrscherin der Welt"   [4:24]    
      Kenneth Riegel, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

11      "Dir, der Unberührbaren" - "Du schwebst zu Höhen"   [3:56]    
      Judith Blegen, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer   

12      "Bei der Liebe" - "Bei dem Bronn" - Bei dem hochgeweihten Orte"   [4:50]    
      Margaret Price, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz   

13      "Neige, neige, du Ohnegleiche"   [1:13]    
      Judith Blegen, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz   

14      "Er überwächst uns schon"   [3:57]    
      Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Wiener Sängerknaben, Uwe Theimer   

15      "Komm! hebe dich zu höhern Sphären"   [1:23]    
      Gerti Zeumer, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz   

16      "Blicket auf zum Retterblick"   [6:01]    
      Kenneth Riegel, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer, Wiener Sängerknaben, Uwe Theimer   

17      "Alles Vergängliche"   [6:28]    
      Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Kenneth Riegel, Hermann Prey, José van Dam, Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, Rudolf Scholz, Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Walter Hagen-Groll, Wiener Singverein, Helmut Froschauer, Wiener Sängerknaben, Uwe Theimer   

Total Playing Time [59:02]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 03:09:56 PM
Drasko thanks for that info.......what a mess  :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 14, 2010, 03:58:29 PM
The Bertini cycle is also rather messy in that regard.

Milos, what it Jaap van Zweden  doing in the 4th? - solo violin ?

Quote5      4. Sehr behaglich: "Wir genießen die himmlischen Freuden"   [8:44]   
      Helmut Wittek, Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Leonard Bernstein, Jaap van Zweden   

BTW, were it not for Master Wittek's raw singing and faulty intonation, the concept of a boy soprano might have worked. Mahler knew the Vienna Boy's Choir and he would have thought of it as an alternative if it had made real musical sense. Note that many sopranos who have sung the M4 part are also able exponents of Strauss' 4 Last Songs, Mozart's Countess and other high-lying roles that require exceptional intonation and breath control.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on February 14, 2010, 04:59:14 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 02:07:22 PM
Btw my preference for the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony set does not diminish the overall greatness of the DG set, which if Sony set did not exist DG set would still have to rank as one of the top 2-3 complete sets of all time, a magnificent acheivement.........

Fortunately the later DG set was well documented on film, I love watching the mad scientist Lenny completely in his element unleashing the hounds for final movement of 7th symphony.....no one today is this animated on the podium, where have the great ones gone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjsF9a96I0k&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjsF9a96I0k&feature=related)

I watched that wee video.
He gave character to his entire repertoire through his on-podium antics.
One of the most unbelievably talented, intelligent and open minded conductors ever.  History remains to etch out a furrow for his own symphonic works.  Wont be long.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 14, 2010, 06:24:36 PM
QuoteI went to the concert because I wanted to see him conduct.... He conducts like an epileptic, in the lyric passages he makes faces as if he ewas going to come, conducts without baton, poses all the time, everything for the public, nothing for the men [the musicians]. In his music for ballet he actually dances. He is a show !
Pierre Monteux, writing in 1945.

Today I listened to an unusually sensitive and eloquent reading of the 9th by the SWF Baden-Baden Orchestra under Hans Rosbaud. Clear and well-balanced 1954 sound. The orchestra sounds well, if rather meagre in numbers. The outer movements came out best, flowing and lyrical, Walter-style. Timings are  roughly 23-16-13-22. Many conductors today take between 25-30 minutes for the bookend slow movements. Rosbaud imparts great logic to tempo relationships in those long movements. One episode flows into another seamlessly (a stumbling block in many readings of the first movement). It's all very sweet and radiant. A very valid POV that complements rather than opposes those of more saturnine, anguished exponents.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 14, 2010, 06:55:27 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 03:09:56 PM
Drasko thanks for that info.......what a mess  :o
There is a better format, and with more music, to boot!.
I have this set of Symphonies 5-7.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515JWGWPW8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
The second disc of Symphony 6 is filled out by Kindertotenlieder, and the second disc of Symphony 7 is filled out by Ruckert Lieder (Hampson was the singer.)
There are two companion sets, for Symphonies 1-4, Fahrenden Gesellen, Knaben Wunderhorn in the first,  and Symphonies 8-10 and LvdE in the other set.
No smooshing of symphonies together, other than the Adagio of 10 is the first track of the CD containing the Part I of 8.
Total Amazon pricing for the three together is about $115 USD, with a total of 16 CDs.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jGPMKdZWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YV35F6CVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It's merely pure laziness that I have yet to get the other two volumes (although I have the individual recording of the 2nd).

Edit:  oopsie.  just realized that Drasko posted about these sets a page ago .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on February 14, 2010, 07:17:43 PM
This is starting to bring back Memories of the Bernstein DG recordings.  I was actually in Avery Fisher Hall when they recording #3, and left impressed by the histrionics on the podium, but unimpressed by what sounded like a sloppy, unenthusiastic performance.  I was curious enough to listen to the DG recording and it was clear they fixed an anticlimactic end to the final movement in the editing room.  With these recovered memories, I've deleted the set from my shopping card.  I agree with those who say the earlier Columbia set was better, with the proviso that the Columbia set is nothing special.   :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 15, 2010, 01:00:43 AM
Quote from: Barak on February 14, 2010, 03:58:29 PM
Milos, what it Jaap van Zweden  doing in the 4th? - solo violin ?

He was the concertmaster of the RCO at the time, hence the solo violin part.

Quote from: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 02:07:22 PM
Fortunately the later DG set was well documented on film...

But the Unitel recordings are not the same as the Deutsche Grammophon Recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 15, 2010, 05:06:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 15, 2010, 01:00:43 AM
But the Unitel recordings are not the same as the Deutsche Grammophon Recordings.

Thanks for pointing that out......

These DVDs actually give us a third complete Mahler set of performances falling between the 1960s Sony CD set and the 1980s DG CD set offering yet another variation on Bernstein's Mahler journey

DVD set for symphonies 1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 are with VPO and symphony 2 features LSO at Ely Cathedral. These date from 1970s, I have DVD volume I set with performance dates:

S1 - 10/1974
S2 - 9/1973 (Janet Baker, Sheila Armstrong)
S3 - 4/1972 (Christa Ludwig)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0044007340899.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 15, 2010, 02:02:49 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EV73SWDZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

As long as we are talking Mahler DVDs, I placed an order for one of Abbados new series with Lucerne.
He seems to be as good as any active conductor today with Mahler and these are widescreen format, will start with Mahler 2nd of course.........

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 16, 2010, 01:15:09 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 15, 2010, 02:02:49 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EV73SWDZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

As long as we are talking Mahler DVDs, I placed an order for one of Abbados new series with Lucerne.
He seems to be as good as any active conductor today with Mahler and these are widescreen format, will start with Mahler 2nd of course.........

I was never a huge Mahler fan...until I saw some of the Abbado performances with Luscerne Orchestra. I loved them.

Speaking of Mezzo, for those interested, I read that the Mezzo channel would be showing Mahler symphonies tonight (#8 and #9) and it looks like they will show #2 (same one from above I think) and perhaps another after that on Thursday as well. Not sure if they show the same programs in every region, so you may want to check the progeam in your area before getting too excited. They also sometimes show the wrong schedules. Still, figured it was worth a mention...

Edit: Looks like Thursday is indeed the 2nd symphony, but Boulez, not Abaddo and a little earlier...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 16, 2010, 06:53:18 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 15, 2010, 05:06:49 AM
  I have DVD volume I set with performance dates:

S1 - 10/1974
S2 - 9/1973 (Janet Baker, Sheila Armstrong)
S3 - 4/1972 (Christa Ludwig)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0044007340899.jpg)

Here we have conclusion of 2nd symphony from Ely Cathedral, perhaps the greatest moment in all of classical music, man meets his creator.......an essential Mahler DVD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf5fM1i3MGQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf5fM1i3MGQ&feature=related)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 19, 2010, 11:53:11 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v341afIAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

released March 1st (amazon UK)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 20, 2010, 04:23:44 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 15, 2010, 02:02:49 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EV73SWDZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

As long as we are talking Mahler DVDs, I placed an order for one of Abbados new series with Lucerne.
He seems to be as good as any active conductor today with Mahler and these are widescreen format, will start with Mahler 2nd of course.........

Very happy with new Abbado Lucerne DVD series, widescreen format upscaled to 1080p using my Oppo Blu Ray player looks fabulous on 52" LCD screen. The camera work is very professional with many interesting shots/angles.....I will be buying these are they are released. As I said before I think Abbado is currently best living Mahler conductor, so it is fortunate we can collect these for reasobable price

I find these DVDs to be extremely useful for discovering all kinds of inside info/details about Mahlers music world and makes your CD listening sessions much more enjoyable as you can recall these images, plus the subtitles allow you to actually understand the words being sung.....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 20, 2010, 04:38:05 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 20, 2010, 04:23:44 PM

Very happy with new Abbado Lucerne DVD series, widescreen format upscaled to 1080p using my Oppo Blu Ray player looks fabulous on 52" LCD screen. The camera work is very professional with many interesting shots/angles.....I will be buying these are they are released. As I said before I think Abbado is currently best living Mahler conductor, so it is fortunate we can collect these for reasobable price

I find these DVDs to be extremely useful for discovering all kinds of inside info/details about Mahlers music world and makes your CD listening sessions much more enjoyable as you can recall these images, plus the subtitles allow you to actually understand the words being sung.....

I still have their 3rd unwatched. But the Abbado/Lucerne partnership, as is well-reported by critical opinion, is indeed something special. Indeed, rather more special than most of the rest of his Mahler, to my ears.

(Though I also consider his 'late' Berlin Mahler of a very high standard, if a little uneven by comparison to his Lucerne work.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on February 20, 2010, 04:45:24 PM
Quote from: Renfield on February 20, 2010, 04:38:05 PM
I still have their 3rd unwatched. But the Abbado/Lucerne partnership, as is well-reported by critical opinion, is indeed something special. Indeed, rather more special than most of the rest of his Mahler, to my ears.

When watching DVD you get to see/know the musicians which is cool..........many are younger than usual and about 20% female so very integrated. Abbado is more animated on podiium than I expected (which is good)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on February 20, 2010, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 20, 2010, 04:45:24 PM

When watching DVD you get to see/know the musicians which is cool..........many are younger than usual and about 20% female so very integrated. Abbado is more animated on podiium than I expected (which is good)

You might be on to something about the added visual effect, even as regards one's musical enjoyment.

I certainly know I feel more motivated to explore a given reading's minutiae when exposed to it live.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on February 28, 2010, 11:27:29 AM
Over in the Vocal Recital thread I have been banging on about how wonderful the baritone Christian Gerhaher is. Looking through his discography I saw that there was a 'Das Lied von der Erde'.

Can I need another one? I have about 12, including two with all male singers, the Schoenberg reduction and a version accompanied by piano. However, this was a version conducted by Nagano and his Mahler 8th is a surprise favourite of mine. So, when it arrived, I had high hopes. I had not read any reviews of this disc before I heard it.

In sum, I am very glad it cost me as little as it did. The tenor, Klaus Florian Vogt is new to me. It is a sweet and plangent voice, but basically in that first song, a boy was sent in to do a man's job and he has to gentle his way to negotiate round some of it, sounding tremulous on occasion. I want a heroic sound to pit against that wall of sound. I just cannot understand why this singer is attempting this music. And yet, and yet....he is a Wagner singer with Lohengrin and Parsifal in his repertoire!

I was so taken aback by what I was hearing that I listened again through headphones and here the detail he puts into the songs is much clearer. He never barks or shouts, but he sounds under pressure, in the wrong way. It is a poetic approach, though why does a Wagner tenor sound taxed at the top of this third song and occasionally under the note? I wonder how much help he needed from the engineers?

Gerhaher seems very self effacing in this instance in the final song. I want him to let go more. He can do the 'big' phrase, but then somehow the piece dies away. It is a subtle but also a rather subdued performance. I don't feel the grip and the epic arc of that final song, it sounds episodic. This in part would be Nagano's approach. I really felt that everyone would have been happier with the Schoenberg reduction. At one point I looked at the sleve to see whether it was a reduced orchestration, but of course it was not, there had been no piano and the opening of the piece was pretty full on. But thereafter there is a restraint for the most part that worked wonderfully in the 8th Symphony, but here failed me.

Gerhaher really deploys the words, but for example in the first song, he almost uses parlando and I much prefer a more defined legato. But it sounds extemporised, which many of the very best performances of music do. Especially in his second song, he unrolls it for us, though is somewhat pushed later in the wilder part of the song as the horses dash through the water, however, he is far from alone in that.

He is aided and abetted by Nagano who really goes for the filigree textures, the detail, but it ultimately feels small scale, despite the detail and beauty of the playing.

Having now read several reports on the disc, including one by Jens, I can see it divides opinion with the tenor being the main bone of contention.

The booklet lists every player in the orchestra, but ignores the words of the poems.

My three favourite performances on disc are:

Klemperer, stoic, unyielding, bleak.
Kubelik, moving, consoling and supporting the singers.
Levine, plush, exotic, dramatic.

In each case the singers are superb.

Here, I may need to live much longer with what feels like a small scale over subtle approach. Perhaps then it will yield to me its secrets, but on the initial hearings, it goes quite low on the list.

Mike

Edited for spelling
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 28, 2010, 11:51:05 AM
Quote from: knight on February 28, 2010, 11:27:29 AM
The booklet lists every player in the orchestra, but ignores the words of the poems.

Saves a lot of money not to print the words of something that isn't public domain.

KFV was 'dubbed in' afterwards; he recorded his parts in the Herkulessaal...
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=732 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=732)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on February 28, 2010, 11:54:42 AM
Well, I assume this was a full price issue at least initially, so I think the words should be available. I understand when it is a budget issue.

I had not felt that there was any dubbing, though one of the reviews I just read implied as much for at least patches.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 28, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
Quote from: knight on February 28, 2010, 11:54:42 AM
Well, I assume this was a full price issue at least initially, so I think the words should be available. I understand when it is a budget issue.

Well, it's still a budget issue, even for full price CDs. I found it disappointing, too, though.

Quote
I had not felt that there was any dubbing, though one of the reviews I just read implied as much for at least patches.

Mine did (link above):

"Instead, it sounds like he phoned his contribution in. Actually, he did, in a way: not in perfect health at the concerts, he recorded his parts later, in Munich. But I'm not sure why Vogt's blandness should be the result of dubbing his part in, a month after the live performances."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 28, 2010, 07:32:47 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 28, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
Well, it's still a budget issue, even for full price CDs. I found it disappointing, too, though.

Mine did (link above):

"Instead, it sounds like he phoned his contribution in. Actually, he did, in a way: not in perfect health at the concerts, he recorded his parts later, in Munich. But I'm not sure why Vogt's blandness should be the result of dubbing his part in, a month after the live performances."

To put it bluntly,  Vogt is so weak in this recording that it completely ruins it for me:  nothing Gerharer or Nagano can do will save it for me.

Gerharer has recorded all the piano versions of Mahler's songs (ie, just about everything  except LvdE) over two discs, including the last of the Ruckert Lieder that was never orchestrated by Mahler: even, odd as it may sound (baritone with piano?!) the Urlicht movement of the Second.  The second disk came out about the same time as this LvdE; I highly recommend it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on February 28, 2010, 07:47:22 PM
Listened to Vaclav Neumann's Mahler 4, with the Czech Philharmonic.   The first movement is nicely done, lively with just enough weight.  I am always struck that the opening trumpet theme from the 5th symphony seems to be derived from a very similar passage in the first movement of the 4th.  Aside from that, I am reminded that this is far from my favorite music by Mahler.  No revelations here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 10:50:44 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kM-OW-QcL._SS500_.jpg)


Finished this 2 DVD set last night, all three with WP, none of these performances are on CD versions BTW,
Amazon sellers $23 new:

Symphony 4 - 5/1972 (young Edith Mathis)
Symphony 5 - 4/1972
Symphony 6 - 10/1976 (Bernstein has full beard, very unusual looking)

A few comments on the symphony 6 DVD, wonderful camera shots of Bernstein and highlighting instrument sections as they are called upon, highly detailed showing valve workings on french horns, oboe etc. Interesting to see all the unsual sound generators like line of cowbells and bunch of branches beaten agains a flat board, lots of xylophone etc

The star is the huge wooden mallet raised overhead and striking down on a wood platform with loose board on top......I had no idea it was this massive, used three times in this version of 6th

Viewing system is 52" Sony LCD with Oppo Blu Ray player up scaling DVD to 1080P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on February 28, 2010, 07:47:22 PM
Listened to Vaclav Neumann's Mahler 4, with the Czech Philharmonic.   The first movement is nicely done, lively with just enough weight.  I am always struck that the opening trumpet theme from the 5th symphony seems to be derived from a very similar passage in the first movement of the 4th.  Aside from that, I am reminded that this is far from my favorite music by Mahler.  No revelations here.

For Neumann I think his best Mahler work was done with Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in 1960s

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/17/175390.JPG)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on March 06, 2010, 12:22:49 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 06, 2010, 11:09:24 AM

For Neumann I think his best Mahler work was done with Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in 1960s

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/17/175390.JPG)

Agreed.   Just listened to the Czech Phil Mahler 5 from Neumann, and no comparison with this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Mv3K8OjXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on March 13, 2010, 07:08:08 AM
In connection with the 150th anniversary of Gustav Mahler's birth, as well as Christoph Eschenbach's 70th anniversary in 2010, christoph-eschenbach.com, in collaboration with the websites of the Orchestre de Paris and Medici TV will each offer a unique free streaming experience of all of Gustav Mahler's Symphonies.

Each month, starting on February 19, 2010 and then on the 15th of each month thereafter, a new symphony of Gustav Mahler will be put online for free streaming. Each symphony was recorded with the Orchestre de Paris under the direction of Christoph Eschenbach and filmed by the director François Goetghebeur. By October 15, 2010 the complete symphonies will be online for streaming and remain accessible until at least July 2011.


http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on March 13, 2010, 09:10:18 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 13, 2010, 07:08:08 AM
In connection with the 150th anniversary of Gustav Mahler's birth, as well as Christoph Eschenbach's 70th anniversary in 2010, christoph-eschenbach.com, in collaboration with the websites of the Orchestre de Paris and Medici TV will each offer a unique free streaming experience of all of Gustav Mahler's Symphonies.

Each month, starting on February 19, 2010 and then on the 15th of each month thereafter, a new symphony of Gustav Mahler will be put online for free streaming. Each symphony was recorded with the Orchestre de Paris under the direction of Christoph Eschenbach and filmed by the director François Goetghebeur. By October 15, 2010 the complete symphonies will be online for streaming and remain accessible until at least July 2011.


http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/
Cool!  Should be interesting, at least.  I rather enjoyed what Eschenbach had to say regarding Mahler here: http://mahler.universaledition.com/christoph-eschenbach-on-mahler/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on March 13, 2010, 07:08:56 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 13, 2010, 07:08:08 AM
In connection with the 150th anniversary of Gustav Mahler's birth, as well as Christoph Eschenbach's 70th anniversary in 2010, christoph-eschenbach.com, in collaboration with the websites of the Orchestre de Paris and Medici TV will each offer a unique free streaming experience of all of Gustav Mahler's Symphonies.

Each month, starting on February 19, 2010 and then on the 15th of each month thereafter, a new symphony of Gustav Mahler will be put online for free streaming. Each symphony was recorded with the Orchestre de Paris under the direction of Christoph Eschenbach and filmed by the director François Goetghebeur. By October 15, 2010 the complete symphonies will be online for streaming and remain accessible until at least July 2011.


http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/

Many thanks for the heads-up.

I know from experience that the Eschenbach/Paris partnership produces some glorious sounds in concert, and I've heard good things about what he does with Mahler (besides what he has to say about him, which is also interesting).

So I'll definitely tune in. Thanks again! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on March 14, 2010, 06:53:55 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414B62KAD6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Just watched the 8th in this great Bernstein DVD series recorded Sept 1975, this really is a symphony to be seen as well as heard, the forces assembled are really impressive. The venue changes to the larger Vienna Concert House and behind the enlarged WP orchestra we have Vienna Boys Choir center flanked by two large adult choirs, a distinguished soloist group and in a loft behind Bernstein we have a smaller orchestra with their own conductor......small organ in center has two large sets of timpani drums below it, and Bernstein takes their full measure of these assembled forces, a great performance of the 8th that maybe his best on record, better then DG version for sure.

For Bernstein fans you must get this DVD set of Mahler symphonies with WP from the 1970s, this represents a complete 3rd symphony set to go with 1960s Sony and 1980s DG sets on CD

I am also collecting the new Abbado DVD series of Mahler symphonies, the sound and picture quality are much better and Abbado is very good in his own way, but Bernstein is so impassioned in his performance and dramatic in style that the oppportunity to view these performances cannot be missed by any serious Mahler fan
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 14, 2010, 11:18:50 AM
I assume the semi orchestra is all brass, otherwise, any idea what the purpose of it is?

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on March 14, 2010, 11:59:19 AM
Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 11:18:50 AM
I assume the semi orchestra is all brass, otherwise, any idea what the purpose of it is?
Mike

I believe the remote small group in balcony is intended to impart a "heavenly" fanfare effect, and they are all brass as far as I can tell. Only shown on camera during the closing minutes......provide a spiritual answer to the earthbound brass clarion call, check them out at 4:45 and 5:40 of the grand finale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4zScwFBMTs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4zScwFBMTs)

Also you can see the general layout set for Bernstein......
I do think a more powerful prominent cathedral size organ bass would be even better here, I like to shake the heavens
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 14, 2010, 12:58:56 PM
Thanks, terrific, there are some wonderfully resonant bases in the choir at the start of that extract. Bernstein is utterly clear about what he wants, even subdividing the beats in a subtle but visible way. The full organ can blot out the singers. I have been in a performance where I was close to the longest organ pipes and it obliterated all the sound around me.

Excellent soprano soloists in that final few minutes.

Tempting....very tempting.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on March 14, 2010, 01:24:21 PM
Quote from: knight on March 14, 2010, 12:58:56 PM
Thanks, terrific, there are some wonderfully resonant bases in the choir at the start of that extract. Bernstein is utterly clear about what he wants, even subdividing the beats in a subtle but visible way. The full organ can blot out the singers. I have been in a performance where I was close to the longest organ pipes and it obliterated all the sound around me.

Excellent soprano soloists in that final few minutes.

Tempting....very tempting.

Yes like angelic voices floating above the frey, quite a beautiful work indeed.

Also keep in mind the 2 DVD set with both symphonies 7 and 8 is only $24 new at Amazon sellers, cheaper than many CD versions of these two symphonies by other conductors (and these Bernstein performances are  not available on any CD)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 14, 2010, 02:15:40 PM
When there is no initial show of hands at the question & answer time, Küppers seems eager to wrap it up. He is preempted by three hands that hastily shoot up. The questions are for Thielemann and include: "What's your relationship with Mahler"? "Why do you ask that?" CT shoots back, moodily. "Uh, oh... professional curiosity?" stumbles the journalist half cowed, half defiant. "Well, I have a troubled relationship with Mahler's music. But then you knew that, which is why you asked, no?" Touché. But what follows changes the mood in the room changes completely. "Mahler's music lends itself most to those conductors" Thielemann reflects, "who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement. That doesn't exactly accommodate my conducting style; I've not been terribly successful at that yet. The music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve, eventually. Not always to enhance something. I'm currently trying to wean myself off that in Strauss, actually..." Thielemann thus continues a solid three minutes on his fallibility as a conductor in Mahler, about trying to break habits and improving—a touching, beautifully honest moment.

from: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html)

A Mahler Cycle And Uncomfortable Silence: The Munich Philharmonic in 2010/11 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Kaiser on March 19, 2010, 07:28:50 PM
Hello! I'm pretty new here and certainly new to appreciating Mahler. I have been purchasing a few recordings here and there, quite blindly in fact. But my first introduction was an inherited LP copy of Frtiz Reiner's "Das Lied Von Der Erde". At first I couldn't make heads or tails of it until I listened to it again after returning home from a good friend's wake (not trying to be morbid here, but I found the piece quite comforting strangely enough). I then found a Naxos CD of Mahler's 1st "Titan" Symphony. I took to this piece immediately! I'm sure there are more well-regarded recordings, but this was the first time I felt like I really "got" a Mahler piece. Pretty exciting! I've since scored a CD of Karajan's famous 5th (still working on that one) and tonight I chanced upon a copy of Solti's famous 8th. Listening to that 8th for the first time right now and again I'm enjoying this right away! For some reason I had the impression that Mahler was a difficult composer to get into, but I'm happy to discover this is not really true. I've been reading through this thread a bit - very interesting observations and reflections here. I don't exactly have anything profound to add except that I appreciate all the input here and look forward to reading more from the Mahler "faithful". I also found this site on the internet and have found it helpful for newbies (of which I qualify):

http://www.andante.com/profiles/Mahler/symph1.cfm

Cheers!    --------------- Chris
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on March 19, 2010, 10:33:56 PM
Hi, Chris; I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying what you have heard so far of Mahler's works.

Quote from: Kaiser on March 19, 2010, 07:28:50 PMFor some reason I had the impression that Mahler was a difficult composer to get into, but I'm happy to discover this is not really true.

I can relate to you as I was in a very similar position over a year ago. I downloaded a live performance of Mahler's second (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.msg250014.html#msg250014) -- the Resurrection-- when curiosity got the better of me, and I was immediately in love with sound world on first listening to it. It's a strange and wonderful feeling when that happens, when you know that you have a lot of music, by the same composer and maybe even others from the same time to be explored.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 19, 2010, 10:42:53 PM
Chris, I hope it is the start of a long love affair. Some of Mahler's Symphonies are supposedly more accessable than others, but it is really down to what you can cope with. I have read people on this board who have great difficulty enjoying the 8th and have to make friends with it slowly. I like the Solti a great deal and have quite a few versions. If you were interested to discover how different it can sound, Witt on Naxos or Nagano provide considerable contrast to the high energy of Solti.

But that way lies madness and penury, as most who post here have discovered.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on March 20, 2010, 03:09:27 AM
Quote from: knight on March 19, 2010, 10:42:53 PMBut that way lies madness and penury, as most who post here have discovered.
Madness and penury indeed.  But if you're going to be frightened off by such trifles then you should probably avoid this forum altogether!

I love Das Lied, Chris, particularly Der Abschied, which I regard as one of the loveliest and most moving bits of music in the entire repertoire.  I'm not surprised that you found it comforting following your friend's wake.  Thanks for the link to the Mahler articles at andante.  The biographical information regarding Das Lied helped contextualize the piece and started me thinking about the famous meeting between Mahler and Sibelius in November, 1907, after Mahler had immersed himself in the poems on which Das Lied is based.  Then the description that follows in the section titled "Style and Language" makes the piece sound almost Sibelian--the economy of means, the lean textures, the interrelated motifs, the melodic material all built from a single cell--which got me wondering all the more about the influence their discussion may have had on Mahler's thinking about symphonic structure in general and this piece in particular.  No wonder it's my favorite work by Mahler!  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 20, 2010, 03:22:55 AM
Mine too David, as I write I am loading the Bernstein, Fischer Dieskau version onto my iPod. I think I have a dozen versions, only one of which is, relatively, a dud (Nagano). It yields to quite a range of approaches.

The only time I was ever at a Karajan BPO performance was DLVDE at Edinburgh. I was in the choir stalls and faced him. He kept his eyes closed throughout. I had only previously known the Klemperer and I still rate it very highly, but Karajan's opulent approach and sweep seemed alien to me then in this piece up against Klemperer's austerity. I would like to re-encounter the performance live and see how I felt about it now, impossible of course. I have never investigated his recorded version.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on March 20, 2010, 03:58:27 AM
Mike--Following Jens's review, I was considering nabbing Nagano's DLVDE--especially in light of his terrific 8th--but then saw earlier comments by you regarding it and decided I should hear it first.  Bernstein's was the standard for a baritone performance until MTT's with Hampson, which for me is so good (and not just the orchestra, though it is superb!) that I scarcely miss Ms Ludwig, Ms Baker, or Ms Urmana.

I've not heard Karajan's DLVDE, nor--given my generally tepid response to his recordings--have I ever had any interest.  But your mention of him does remind me that, aside from Bruckner, I usually enjoy Herbie the most when conducting opera or other music including substantial vocal material.  So now I'm a bit curious about what he would have made of it.  8)

edit:  Hmmm...I see he had Ludwig & Kollo--not bad, and the disc can be had for a song (!) these days.  Oh...but I see on Amazon that the "Santa Fe Listener" loves it.  Not a good sign, IMO.  And one of the other 5 star reviews raves about Fritz Wunderlich's performance.  You don't say....  Maybe I'd better try to hear that one before buying as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Kaiser on March 20, 2010, 06:29:31 AM
Quote from: knight on March 19, 2010, 10:42:53 PM


But that way lies madness and penury, as most who post here have discovered.

Mike

That's a kind of madness I can look forward to! Thanks Mike and all who've responded with excellent suggestions and supportive words. I have been digging into the works of other composers (Haydn, Bruckner, Stravinsky, etc.....) on a more structured level, but Mahler's works have taken me by surprise and I've been swept into the fray so to speak. This forum has been invaluable for me in my journey so far. I quite enjoyed the information at the andante site - knowing the historical context in which Mahler wrote his pieces has helped my appreciation so far. I was very surprised at how he considered his first symphony his "child of sorrow" - how strange since it seems so instantly appealing. Perhaps modern ears can hear it better than when it was first premiered in Mahler's own time. Such a fascinating character he was! I'll have to check out the link to Mahler's 2nd - haven't heard that one yet. Cheers!
------------ Chris
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 20, 2010, 07:41:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 14, 2010, 02:15:40 PM
A Mahler Cycle And Uncomfortable Silence: The Munich Philharmonic in 2010/11

Jens, a good write-up of what must have been a very uncomfortable, tension-filled news conference.

Quote from: jlaurson on March 14, 2010, 02:15:40 PM
"Mahler's music lends itself most to those conductors" Thielemann reflects, "who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement...

Of course I don't agree with that. While I enjoy Mahler performances that are more restrained (Szell's Mahler, for example, or Haitink's) the big, bold, extroverted approach works, too, obviously. I'm disappointed he thinks he has to change his style before tackling the works. It makes me wonder if he actualy likes Mahler. He has a natural affinity for Wagner and Bruckner. The list of German and Austrian conductors who conducted those composers but avoided Mahler is significant. Maybe Thielemann is simply carrying on the "tradition."

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 20, 2010, 07:57:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 20, 2010, 07:41:50 AM
Jens, a good write-up of what must have been a very uncomfortable, tension-filled news conference.

Oh, I had a blast! It must have been uncomfortable for the dim journalists who got barked at. Hopefully I made it more uncomfortable for the politico Kueppers who is an ignorant arse. And the Intendant certainly must have wished himself anywhere else, just not there.

I may now never get a job at the Munich Phil--though I love the orchestra institution dearly. But I've got rapport with Thielemann, who nearly giggled at the two pointed questions about the future of the orchestra and 'bravado in an orchestra'.

Quote"Mahler's music lends itself most to those conductors" Thielemann reflects, "who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement...

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 20, 2010, 07:41:50 AMOf course I don't agree with that. While I enjoy Mahler performances that are more restrained (Szell's Mahler, for example, or Haitink's) the big, bold, extroverted approach works, too, obviously. I'm disappointed he thinks he has to change his style before tackling the works. It makes me wonder if he actualy likes Mahler. He has a natural affinity for Wagner and Bruckner. The list of German and Austrian conductors who conducted those composers but avoided Mahler is significant. Maybe Thielemann is simply carrying on the "tradition."

Well, a conductor tends to know what works. The fact that he said the same thing about Richard Strauss suggests that it is not dislike of the music; nor a matter of 'not getting it', but a genuine impression.

How many "underliners and exclamation-mark putter-downers" work in Mahler? Bernstein, I suppose. Perhaps Zander--but already he is controversial. The understatement types--Kubelik  (probably who CT thinks most of), Haitink (who he explicitly mentioned), Jansons (boring), et al.--are the more commonly successful conductors of Mahler, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 20, 2010, 07:16:09 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 20, 2010, 07:57:58 AM

How many "underliners and exclamation-mark putter-downers" work in Mahler? Bernstein, I suppose. Perhaps Zander--but already he is controversial. The understatement types--Kubelik  (probably who CT thinks most of), Haitink (who he explicitly mentioned), Jansons (boring), et al.--are the more commonly successful conductors of Mahler, though.

I'd add Gergiev to the list of "underliners, etc."--with the caveat that he doesn't always punctuate correctly.  And when he tries to be understated,  he merely tapers off into boring (the just released Fourth, for example, where he seemed to try to be restrained on both ends of the emotional spectrum--the scherzo didn't seem very frenetic, and the adagio seemed more dreary than restful.  Warning--I wrote that after only one listen!)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 20, 2010, 11:51:42 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on March 20, 2010, 07:16:09 PM
I'd add Gergiev to the list of "underliners, etc."--with the caveat that he doesn't always punctuate correctly.  And when he tries to be understated,  he merely tapers off into boring (the just released Fourth, for example, where he seemed to try to be restrained on both ends of the emotional spectrum--the scherzo didn't seem very frenetic, and the adagio seemed more dreary than restful.  Warning--I wrote that after only one listen!)

Well, if Gergiev is any indication of how Thielemann's Mahler might (have) sound(ed) like, then silence is definitively to be preferred.
I like conductors who are open (and conscious) of their own shortcomings. Some think they ought to (be able) to do everything. On that note: I'm looking forward with part dread, part genuine interest, how Gergiev's forthcoming Parsifal will go over. When I heard that with him live, it was the worst Wagner performance I ever had to suffer through... though the blame was hard to pinpoint--with the orchestra playing their notes with palpable incomprehension.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 28, 2010, 12:03:07 PM
I've downloaded an EMI set of Mahler 7 by Klemperer. Unfortunately the link for the last movement is not working.

Can anyone upload that Finale here?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 29, 2010, 01:59:17 AM
Quote from: Barak on March 28, 2010, 12:03:07 PM
I've downloaded an EMI set of Mahler 7 by Klemperer. Unfortunately the link for the last movement is not working.

Can anyone upload that Finale here?  ;D

Check PM
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on March 29, 2010, 10:55:42 AM
Sarge
Did I read somewhere that you purchased the Bernstein DVD set............

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 29, 2010, 11:44:45 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on March 29, 2010, 10:55:42 AM
Sarge
Did I read somewhere that you purchased the Bernstein DVD set............

I did...you were very persuasive.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 11:20:31 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on March 31, 2010, 07:49:20 AM
I don't know if this qualifies as "super-duper", but picked this one up, new for $33, on Amazon Marketplace.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516pw85rfpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Used the proceeds from selling the Neumann/Czech, which was really dull.

I friend who is very knowledgeable about Mahler symphonies have this DG set and the following recently remastered Sony set, he feels the Sony set is better.  I bought this Sony set last year and gave him the heads up on its availability ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tKWrrM7PL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 11:20:31 AM
I friend who is very knowledgeable about Mahler symphonies have this DG set and the following recently remastered Sony set, he feels the Sony set is better.  I bought this Sony set last year and gave him the heads up on its availability ...

Alot of people feel that way, but I personally a prefer the slower more heartfelt masterful conducting in the later DG cycle, which feels etched out of experience.  The Sony cycle shows a young man giving a bracingly fast interpretation that is not as deep as his later one. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on April 03, 2010, 12:12:20 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 12:10:22 PM
Alot of people feel that way, but I personally a prefer the slower more heartfelt masterful conducting in the later DG cycle, which feels etched out of experience. 

Is it true that one or more of his DG symphonies are made up of patched-up concert performances, i.e. each movement from different concerts or something like that?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 12:53:45 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 03, 2010, 12:12:20 PM
Is it true that one or more of his DG symphonies are made up of patched-up concert performances, i.e. each movement from different concerts or something like that?

Uh no, not at all.  Where did you even hear that?  I've never heard that before. ???  These are all studio recordings from the 80s.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on April 03, 2010, 12:55:32 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 12:53:45 PM
Uh no, not at all.  Where did you even hear that?  I've never heard that before. ???  These are all studio recordings from the 80s.

Oh, okay... thanks. I don't know where I read that... at Amazon, perhaps? I'm not really sure. :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on April 03, 2010, 01:02:09 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 03, 2010, 12:55:32 PM
Oh, okay... thanks. I don't know where I read that... at Amazon, perhaps? I'm not really sure. :-\

Oh yes, I read (and misremembered/misunderstood?) it at Amazon.com. Speaking about the recording of No. 2, the Hurwtizer says:

This is the most imposing performance of this symphony currently available. The tempos are rather slow, but Leonard Bernstein sustains the music's tension superbly, and the climaxes are every bit as overwhelming as they must be to justify the time he takes getting there. The concerts from which this recording derives were among the musical events of a lifetime, and much of that sense of occasion has found its way onto this disc. If you want to be blown away by music, then this baby's for you. --David Hurwitz (http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-2-Gustav/dp/B000001G96/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270328194&sr=1-13)

He was probably just talking about the concerts that took place around the time of the recording.  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 01:08:00 PM
Well if the second symphony was done by several live concerts then wow! I had no idea. :o

I have heard three of his 2nds, the first is the sony from the 60s which was a studio recording with the nypo, and then the 2nd (sony also) was live with the lso, and the 3rd (dg) was I assumed a studio recording with the nypo, but I stand corrected! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on April 03, 2010, 01:25:55 PM
Bernstein's first (CBS/Sony) Mahler cycle: AFAIK, all studio recordings.
Bernstein's second cycle (made for the telly, now on DVD with DG): all live.
Bernstein's third Mahler cycle (DG) is 'live', too, although with a lot of restoration work afterwards .... as I once read in an article of a Dutch journalist, who was invited for one of those 'restoration settings', where coughing et al was absolutely prohibited!

If you want a REAL Mahler live experience with Lenny: go for his 9th with the Berliner Phil (DG). The entire trombone section remains silent at the climax of the final movement!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 01:39:18 PM
Despite that big mistake, I think that BPO recording is excellent. 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on April 03, 2010, 01:58:51 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 01:39:18 PM
Despite that big mistake, I think that BPO recording is excellent. 0:)
At least I think it's must if one's a Mahler & Lenny fan, because it's an once-in-a-lifetime experience. It was the only time that the Berliner & Bernstein made music together.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 02:06:11 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 03, 2010, 01:58:51 PM
At least I think it's must if one's a Mahler & Lenny fan, because it's an once-in-a-lifetime experience. It was the only time that the Berliner & Bernstein made music together.

I wonder why.  I thought Karajan and Bernstein were pretty good friends.  Since Bernstein only outlived Karajan by about a year, if he never had the chance to conduct the BPO during Karajan's lifetime, he basically did not have the chance.  Knowing how Karajan ran the BPO, Karajan clearly had a last say on whether if a conductor could conduct his BPO.  On the other hand, I do not believe Karajan had ever conducted the NYPO when Lenny was running the show either, i.e. in the 60's.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 03, 2010, 02:25:40 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 03, 2010, 12:12:20 PM
Is it true that one or more of his DG symphonies are made up of patched-up concert performances, i.e. each movement from different concerts or something like that?

I know that some of the performances were recorded live.  I was in Avery Fisher Hall for a performance of Mahler 3 that was used in this set.  I see nothing wrong with selecting different takes from different concerts (and maybe some material from rehearsals or post-concert sessions) to make a full recording.   Studio recordings are sometimes recorded literally a few bars at a time.  The live recordings, even with some editing, seem to me to be a more authentic musical experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 03, 2010, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 11:20:31 AM
I friend who is very knowledgeable about Mahler symphonies have this DG set and the following recently remastered Sony set, he feels the Sony set is better.  I bought this Sony set last year and gave him the heads up on its availability ...

How wonderful for your very knowledgeable friend.  I am also very knowledgeable, in that I know what I like.  I've heard Bernstein's Columbia/Sony recordings and I do not get much pleasure from them.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 03:27:39 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 03, 2010, 02:27:59 PM
How wonderful for your very knowledgeable friend.  I am also very knowledgeable, in that I know what I like.  I've heard Bernstein's Columbia/Sony recordings and I do not get much pleasure from them.

But which Sony version did you listen to?  You probably listened to the old version, which my friend did not like either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 03:48:37 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 03:27:39 PM
But which Sony version did you listen to?  You probably listened to the old version, which my friend did not like either.

I've heard both masterings, it's a subtle improvement and certainly doesn't change the performance any! :D

I'm surprised to see you defending the old NYPO recordings over the fine RCO, especially given your preferences... :-X
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 03:53:31 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 03:48:37 PM
I've heard both masterings, it's a subtle improvement and certainly doesn't change the performance any! :D

I'm surprised to see you defending the old NYPO recordings over the fine RCO, especially given your preferences... :-X

I just ordered the version by Klaus Tennstedt and that will be it for my Mahler collection.  It has taken me years to start appreciating Mahler music.  But Mahler is no JS Bach or Beethoven, whose works I just adore.  For me, this version of Mahler by Bernstein recorded during the golden era of the NYPO is good enough.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on April 04, 2010, 07:35:01 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 20, 2010, 03:58:27 AMMike--Following Jens's review, I was considering nabbing Nagano's DLVDE--especially in light of his terrific 8th--but then saw earlier comments by you regarding it and decided I should hear it first.  Bernstein's was the standard for a baritone performance until MTT's with Hampson, which for me is so good (and not just the orchestra, though it is superb!) that I scarcely miss Ms Ludwig, Ms Baker, or Ms Urmana.
Through the generosity of a kind friend, I have now heard Nagano's DLVDE twice.  The orchestra sounds very good with no shortcomings apparent to my ears.  As some reviewers have noted, Nagano embraces the chamber-music-like quality of Mahler's music, emphasizing tonal beauty and timbral contrast.  While I appreciate the clarity and transparency, I miss the sensuousness and languid world-weariness of some others' interpretations.  I love Gerhaher's tone and naturalness; even though he's a bit less hefty than Hampson, he, too, makes a good case for the baritone instead of an alto.  Vogt, however, is worse than disappointing.  He sounds much too smooth and light and pretty, lacking the forcefulness (Kraft) required.  The first movement is the worst, perhaps due to the curious mixing required with him literally mailing in his contribution, for the sound balance is unconvincing and he is dreadfully underpowered.  Much better is the third movement, Von der Jugend, in which the sound picture is more natural, the balance is fine, and Vogt's light approach feels more appropriate to the text and mood.

I'm dumbfounded by the high praise some reviewers have heaped on this recording and on Vogt in particular, for I agree with Mike that his shortcomings here make this otherwise worthy disc a no-go.

Quote from: DavidW on April 03, 2010, 12:10:22 PM[re. Bernstein's Mahler cycles] I personally a prefer the slower more heartfelt masterful conducting in the later DG cycle, which feels etched out of experience. 
Ditto.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 04, 2010, 07:37:19 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 03:27:39 PM
But which Sony version did you listen to?  You probably listened to the old version, which my friend did not like either.

I'll concede, I did listen to the previous incarnation of the Bernstein/NYPO cycle.  The only reason to listen to Bernstein is to wallow in an absurdly self-indulgent interpretation.  In the 60's cycle, he maintained some modicum of self-restraint, and you are left with middle of the road performances by a not-particularly-talented conductor in lousy sound.  The final cycle has that excitement associated with train wrecks or car crashes.  For 30 bucks, why not.  I'm looking in my mailbox for it every day.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 04, 2010, 07:45:33 AM
To update what I wrote in February concerning Bernstein's Mahler: The true Mahlerite needs both all three cycles. About which CD box is better? Well, I prefer the DG 1, 2, 5, 6 and 8, the Sony 3, 4, 7 and 9.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 04, 2010, 07:48:10 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 04, 2010, 07:37:19 AM
I'll concede, I did listen to the previous incarnation of the Bernstein/NYPO cycle.  The only reason to listen to Bernstein is to wallow in an absurdly self-indulgent interpretation.  In the 60's cycle, he maintained some modicum of self-restraint, and you are left with middle of the road performances by a not-particularly-talented conductor in lousy sound.  The final cycle has that excitement associated with train wrecks or car crashes.  For 30 bucks, why not.  I'm looking in my mailbox for it every day.

For someone 'not particularly talented', he sure left us some great recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on April 04, 2010, 10:03:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 04, 2010, 07:45:33 AM
To update what I wrote in February concerning Bernstein's Mahler: The true Mahlerite needs both all three cycles. About which CD box is better? Well, I prefer the DG 1, 2, 5, 6 and 8, the Sony 3, 4, 7 and 9. Sarge

Sarge, indeed Bernstein's 1970s VPO cycle on DVD is equally as compelling as either CD set......
I prefer the 1960s Bernstein/NYPO CD set performances over later DG set except for symphony 5......symphony 1 is a coin flip. (for 2,6 I much prefer the original Sony performances)

I have both original NYPO/Sony CD set and remastered "Carnegie Hall" set of Bernstein and there is really only marginal difference/improvement in sound despite ravings of some reviewers, not enough reason to buy new set if you have current Sony set......I have high end stereo and get very good sound from original Sony set masterings, very finely detailed and spacious presentation. Symphony 8 does expose limitations in older Sony set compared to better sound in DG 8th, but other symphonies sound great on my gear.......DG has a lusher richer sound to go with the generally slower DG performances, Sony sound is vibrant and detailed to match more dramatic early performance style

The packaging for new Sony "Carnegie Hall" set is not great, there are two folded over cardboard sleeves that hold 2CDs and the access slots are inside center making it very difficult to get out without damaging sleeves, CDs or both  :(

As mentioned recently here the new bargain packaging of DG set is a fiasco with most symphonies broken up on multiple Cds to fit on fewest CDs possible......buyer beware
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on April 04, 2010, 10:56:34 AM
David R, I am glad you rescued some pleasure from the DLVDE performance by Nagano. Back to Bernstein for me.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 04, 2010, 06:44:03 PM
Quote from: ukrneal on April 04, 2010, 07:48:10 AM
For someone 'not particularly talented', he sure left us some great recordings.

Very few, I would say. 

From a technical point of view, I don't think he could compare with the best.  He was a master of he "heart on your sleeve" approach.   Things that stand out in my mind are that Tchaikovski 6 with the absurdly slow final movement, the Sibelius 2 with the slow-motion second movement.  It is interesting to see him test the limits and bend a piece to the breaking point.  If he is doing a standard interpretation, I'll take Karajan/Szell/Solti/Reiner/Bohm/Boult/Haitink, etc any day of the week.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 04, 2010, 09:52:39 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 04, 2010, 07:37:19 AM
I'll concede, I did listen to the previous incarnation of the Bernstein/NYPO cycle.  The only reason to listen to Bernstein is to wallow in an absurdly self-indulgent interpretation.  In the 60's cycle, he maintained some modicum of self-restraint, and you are left with middle of the road performances by a not-particularly-talented conductor in lousy sound.

Interesting POV. I don't fully agree, but I think to some extent you're right. So many more Mahler recordings have come down the pike since then, that these recordings don't seem quite so groundbreaking and "essential" as they appeared at one time.

I still think some of it holds up quite well (e.g. 3, 9, 2), but the much-vaunted 6 & 7 are quite scrappy and ordinary-sounding to my ears now.

IMHO, where Bernstein excelled most of all was in American music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on April 05, 2010, 03:06:10 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 04, 2010, 06:44:03 PM
From a technical point of view, I don't think [Bernstein] could compare with the best.

[...]

If he is doing a standard interpretation, I'll take Karajan/Szell/Solti/Reiner/Bohm/Boult/Haitink, etc any day of the week.

You might be interested to know that Reiner apparently thought more highly of Bernstein's techniqute than of any other of his students, to the extent of awarding him the only perfect grade he ever gave, during the latter's years in the Curtis Institute.

Sadly, I can't presently locate the source for that particular statement, though I'm sure I've come across it more than once.

But even if false, the story still feels quite consistent with my personal view of Bernstein as one of the most technically proficient conductors of the last century; something the extreme examples you offer do not quite do justice!


When he wasn't distorting the music on purpose (however artfully), Bernstein presented a more rigorously structural view of symphonic music than most conductors I can think of: this is especially evident in his Brahms, as well as his Bruckner.

It might be slow, and there might be wallowing. But even if so, Bernstein still wallowed in a supremely structure-conscious manner.


Returning to the thread topic slightly, I have mostly given up trying to pick which Bernstein Mahler 'era' I prefer.

The early cycle has a strongly-argued 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th; but the 1st, 4th and 5th I could do without. The late cycle is strongly-argued in its entirety, but the 3rd's recorded sound hurts my ears, and the argument is for Bernstein as much as it is for Mahler. The middle cycle is, to me, thoroughly 'in-between', bar the fantastic 2nd with the LSO.

Musically, the latter cycle is probably more authoritative, and definitely offers a view of Mahler impossible to find elsewhere, quasi-religious and milking the human condition for all it's worth. But frankly, and even though I really like both the Concertgebouw and Berlin 9ths, it's his New York account that makes the most sense as I listen to it; ditto the 3rd from that cycle, and also to an extent the 2nd, 7th and 8th, compared to the later versions.

Which brings me right back to your original feelings about the early cycle being "middle of the road". If by "middle of the road" you mean "straight", then yes it is - but I can't think of another cycle that's as 'straight' without feeling clinical, or going for a 'this' sound or 'that' sound, e.g. Chailly's dark and brooding Mahler, Kubelik's lighter touch, etc. By comparison, the early Bernstein is 'just' Mahler; even if it obviously couldn't possibly be, it still feels that way.

And for me, that's a strength, possibly not unrelated to its original impact. More so, it is also something the late cycle most emphatically is not - making the contrast between them a desirable possibility to keep open, as Sarge pointed out above.

So, all in all, I don't feel the late cycle is worth discarding the early cycle over, even if, on the other hand, the late cycle is probably a better 'deal' (in the broad sense), and a more authoritative artistic landmark.



(Apologies if I went a little M forever with this, but I thought I'd spare Lenny a few words, when the point was apparently reached of casually discussing whether he might not have actually been fairly mediocre, sans any gimmicks.

To me, it's like saying the VPO are about fairly decent, when their strings don't make exceptionally pretty noises.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 06:05:59 AM
That Bernstein was a good student of Reiner doesn't interest me so much.  You brought up Brahms, I thought his VPO Brahms recordings were the worst I have ever heard in my entire life.  For the opening of #3, as he described in an introduction that preceded the television broadcast, he announced his discovery that Brahms' tempo applied to the accompanying figure, not to the melody, and produced the slowest recording of the movement in the history of the grammophon.  The result was utter mush.

If there is one word to describe Bernstein, it is self-indulgent.  Often it is at the expense of the audience.  In Mahler, it works.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on April 05, 2010, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 06:05:59 AMIf there is one word to discuss Bernstein, it is self-indulgent.
I never thought so regarding his '60s recordings with the NYPO: the Mahler cycle, the Sibelius cycle, his Schuman (Wm.), Tchaikovsky, Copland, Harris, Dvořák, Berlioz, Gershwin, Ives, and so on, but I used to think so of the late Lenny--particularly his WP Sibelius and late Mahler recordings with the WP, RCO, and NYPO.  But something happened to me in recent years and I've come to admire some of those late Lenny recordings very much.  Indulgent?  Yes...but not self-indulgent, methinks--rather, indulging in coaxing damn near every last drop of pathos from these works but never straying into bathos.  That there is a large and very appreciative audience for these recordings suggests that many are moved by this indulgence, which very few would enjoy were it self-indulgent, I suspect.  Such judgments are subjective, of course, and as long as we're all well aware of that we're on solid ground.  (And if you really want to hear self-indulgence, try DuPre's Elgar Cto recording with Barenboim at the helm!)

In trying to figure out why I like those recordings now that once repelled me, I suspect it has mostly to do with growing older, more forgiving, more open-minded, more able to enter into others' perspectives rather than insisting on them accomodating mine, a certain softening similar to that which Santayana addressed in observing that ""My old age judges more charitably and thinks better of mankind than my youth ever did."  There may be a transition point in life when our youthful inclination to individuate ourselves is overtaken by a natural propensity to seek more commonality.  Perhaps, for Bernstein, later in life, he realized that the most he had to give was the fullest expression possible of all that the music he loved moved in his own heart, and to share that with those whose hearts similarly are moved.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 08:25:22 AM
The distinction between indulgence and self-indulgence is not easy to define. 

When my collection was modest in size having more than one recording of a piece was unjustifiable when there were so many other pieces that were not represented at all.  In that case, one of Bernstein's (self-)indulgent efforts was often a disaster.  I remember Bernstein's Sibelius 2 was the first recording of the piece I had ever heard and that was no way to understand what Sibelius wrote.  It left me with the impression that the piece was a mess until I heard another recording.  Now I can go back to it and appreciate that by ignoring the composers directions Bernstein is bringing out things hidden in the score, but that only works after I know the piece.  In any case, there are quite a few Bernstein recordings that I cherish for that reason, but none that I would consider a reference recording.

As far as his technique, I was in the Hall when DG recorded Mahler 3 with the New York Philharmonic at Avery Fisher.  I seem to remember a lot of jumping up and down on the podium, but the Orchestra didn't seem to find it so helpful.They had to patch that performance a lot.  The close of the finale didn't hang together in the performance, but sounded wonderful in the patched up recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on April 05, 2010, 09:00:46 AM
Agree absolutely.  I can only imagine how bizarre that Sibelius 2 recording must sound if you're not already familiar with the piece!  Though I generally agree that "reference" recordings should be relatively free from interpretational extremes, sometimes they're just so damned good that they ought not be ignored:  DuPre's Elgar VCC with Barbirolli, for example, or Bernstein's Mahler 2 on DGG.  I'm with Sarge on 1, 5, and 6 also, and number the 9 among my faves as well.  None of these seem extreme to me these days.  I'll have to give the DGG 3rd another listen soon.  ;D

Maybe there's a bit of a "full circle" thing for me in this, too.  Like many others, when young I was drawn to Mahler's own extremism, but that wore on me as I matured and I was drawn to more "objective" views like Kubelik and then Boulez.  Then a couple of years ago I began another round of fascination with Mahler's symphonies, spurred partly by the MTT/SFS cycle, which indulges in the beauty of the orchestration and sheer sound and more nuanced emotion, then more recently boosted again by Sinopoli's Philharmonia set, also quite lush and beautiful.  Maybe drawing closer to the end of my life--and battling cancer along the way--has opened me to something about Mahler's own passion for earthly beauty and ironic amusement at human mawkishness that's connected with his own preoccupation with death, and which certain conductors connect with and express more fully than others.

Enough rumination!  Time for Lenny's patched together DGG 3rd with the NYPO.  (You know, it's hard for me to believe now but until a couple of years ago I never cared much for the 3rd, regarding it as too sprawling and indulgent!  Now it's one of my faves.  8) )

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 09:03:35 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 05, 2010, 09:00:46 AM
Agree absolutely.  I can only imagine how bizarre that Sibelius 2 recording must sound if you're not already familiar with the piece!  Though I generally agree that "reference" recordings should be relatively free from interpretational extremes, sometimes they're just so damned good that they ought not be ignored:  DuPre's Elgar VCC with Barbirolli, for example, or Bernstein's Mahler 2 on DGG.  I'm with Sarge on 1, 5, and 6 also, and number the 9 among my faves as well.  None of these seem extreme to me these days.  I'll have to give the DGG 3rd another listen soon.  ;D

Maybe there's a bit of a "full circle" thing for me in this, too.  Like many others, when young I was drawn to Mahler's own extremism, but that wore on me as I matured and I was drawn to more "objective" views like Kubelik and then Boulez.  Then a couple of years ago I began another round of fascination with Mahler's symphonies, spurred partly by the MTT/SFS cycle, which indulges in the beauty of the orchestration and sheer sound and more nuanced emotion, then more recently boosted again by Sinopoli's Philharmonia set, also quite lush and beautiful.  Maybe drawing closer to the end of my life--and battling cancer along the way--has opened me to something about Mahler's own passion for earthly beauty and ironic amusement at human mawkishness that's connected with his own preoccupation with death, and which certain conductors connect with and express more fully than others.

Enough rumination!  Time for Lenny's patched together DGG 3rd with the NYPO.  (You know, it's hard for me to believe now but until a couple of years ago I never cared much for the 3rd, regarding it as too sprawling and indulgent!  Now it's one of my faves.  8) )

I suspect our life experience affect us in ways that we don't always recognize.  I like the third but I have to skip the movements with singing, especially the part with the children's choir.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 05, 2010, 10:54:03 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 09:03:35 AM
I suspect our life experience affect us in ways that we don't always recognize.  I like the third but I have to skip the movements with singing, especially the part with the children's choir.

I didn't enjoy the Bim Bam movement either for years...not until I heard Levine's performance where he makes it sound almost sinister. Mitropoulos is another conductor who brings out the dark side of the music.

And David and Renfield: three magnificent posts. Thank you for saying what I've been thinking all day.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 12:22:22 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 05, 2010, 10:54:03 AMAnd David and Renfield: three magnificent posts. Thank you for saying what I've been thinking all day.

And my posts are chopped liver, I take it.   >:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on April 05, 2010, 12:40:29 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 12:22:22 PM
And my posts are chopped liver, I take it.   >:D
I take that to mean he agrees with something I said.  Since I agreed with you, it must just be an oversight.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 05, 2010, 12:41:05 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 12:22:22 PM
And my posts are chopped liver, I take it.   >:D

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 05, 2010, 12:40:29 PM
I take that to mean he agrees with something I said.  Since I agreed with you, it must just be an oversight.  ;)

Okay, okay...Scarpia gets a gold star too:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/gold_star.jpg)

;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on April 05, 2010, 12:42:07 PM
Sweet!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on April 05, 2010, 12:43:15 PM
Of course, some folks like chopped liver.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 12:43:38 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 05, 2010, 12:41:05 PM
Okay, okay...Scarpia gets a gold star too:

(http://easyridertraining.com/html/gold_star.jpg)

;)

Sarge

Ok, but I was hoping for platinum.   :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 05, 2010, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 12:43:38 PM
Ok, but I was hoping for platinum.   :(

As JdP pointed out just a few minutes ago, I'm a high priest of Relativism. Everyone's posts are equally worthy and therefore only gold stars are awarded...and everyone gets one  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 05, 2010, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 05, 2010, 12:53:36 PM
As JdP pointed out just a few minutes ago, I'm a high priest of Relativism. Everyone's posts are equally worthy and therefore only gold stars are awarded...and everyone gets one  ;D

Sarge

Well, there's a policy no one can disagree with.   ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 04:36:36 AM
I wish Bernstein had never made the 1980s Mahler DG set......(except for VPO 5th)
since it started a trend followed to this day of conductors slowing down and smoothing all the edges off Mahlers rugged exciting works  :(

I find it useful for reference purposes to own the Bruno Walter VPO 9th from 1938, sound is decent and you can hear someone with direct link to composer, who worked with him and heard it performed by composer with out too much time removed from his death......then compare that to progression of performances since:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VED00ETCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EwNoFuz2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b8/89/c18f828fd7a0658c52972110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Walter VPO (1938) - 69:42
Bernstein NYPO - 79:51
Bernstein RCO - 89:11

It is common now for modern Mahler 9ths to come in around 90 minutes in glacially slow performances......a shame

There are some people fighting the trend like recent Barenboim 9th at 77:55 and I salute him and am buying his series
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 06, 2010, 05:25:46 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 04:36:36 AM
I wish Bernstein had never made the 1980s Mahler DG set......(except for VPO 5th)
since it started a trend followed to this day of conductors slowing down and smoothing all the edges off Mahlers rugged exciting works  :(

I find it useful for reference purposes to own the Bruno Walter VPO 9th from 1938, sound is decent and you can hear someone with direct link to composer, who worked with him and heard it performed by conductor with out too much time removed from his death......then compare that to progression of performances since:

Walter VPO (1938) - 69:42
Bernstein NYPO - 79:51
Bernstein RCO - 89:11

It is common now for modern Mahler 9ths to come in around 90 minutes in glacially slow performances......a shame

There are some people fighting the trend like recent Barenboim 9th at 77:55 and I salute him and am buying his series

Then you may like the new Norrington Mahler 9, which comes in at about 72 minutes.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FlQkJUjpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 05:40:05 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on April 06, 2010, 05:25:46 AM
Then you may like the new Norrington Mahler 9, which comes in at about 72 minutes.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FlQkJUjpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Are you recommending it?

Have no Mahler by Norrington at this time, I have my doubts but will eventually check into it........perhaps not surprising one of my favorite 9ths is the Ancerl/Supraphon at 78:53 (not that fast tempos are my only criteria)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61PDRTHQF7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2010, 05:40:28 AM
Szell 75:32

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/SzellCentBox.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 05:46:12 AM
Sarge
I really like Szell's Mahler 4th & 6th and wonder why he did not record more Mahler........
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 06, 2010, 05:47:28 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 05:40:05 AM

Are you recommending it?

Have no Mahler by Norrington at this time, I have my doubts but will eventually check into it........perhaps not surprising one of my favorite 9ths is the Ancerl/Supraphon at 78:53 (not that fast tempos are my only criteria)

I've not heard it or anything of it. I just happened to be looking at it before you wrote and when I went back, noticed the timings were what you were looking for. JPC has samples.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 06, 2010, 06:01:11 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on April 06, 2010, 05:25:46 AM
Then you may like the new Norrington Mahler 9, which comes in at about 72 minutes.

The one virtue of Norrington performances, they're generally over with fairly quickly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2010, 06:09:21 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 05:46:12 AM
Sarge
I really like Szell's Mahler 4th & 6th and wonder why he did not record more Mahler........

Conductors of his generation were picky, weren't they? Besides 4, 6, 9, 10 (two movements) and Des Knaben Wunderhorn, he also conducted DLVDE (with Janet Baker!). Other than the three works that were released in the 50s and 60s, he was only interested in recording DLVDE as far as I know. A Vickers/Baker DLVDE came really close to fruition but union rules forced a cancellation at the last moment. (6, 9, and DLVDE--with Lewis instead of Vickers--were live and released after his death.)  Since Columbia was invested in Lenny's cycle then, it's unlikely Szell would have been given the opportunity to record more symphonies even if he'd wanted to.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on April 06, 2010, 07:19:28 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 04:36:36 AM
I wish Bernstein had never made the 1980s Mahler DG set......(except for VPO 5th)
since it started a trend followed to this day of conductors slowing down and smoothing all the edges off Mahlers rugged exciting works  :(

I find it useful for reference purposes to own the Bruno Walter VPO 9th from 1938, sound is decent and you can hear someone with direct link to composer, who worked with him and heard it performed by composer with out too much time removed from his death......then compare that to progression of performances since:

Walter VPO (1938) - 69:42
Bernstein NYPO - 79:51
Bernstein RCO - 89:11

It is common now for modern Mahler 9ths to come in around 90 minutes in glacially slow performances......a shame

There are some people fighting the trend like recent Barenboim 9th at 77:55 and I salute him and am buying his series

I'd be sad if the DGG Bernstein Mahler had not been recorded, since that cycle includes several of my favorite performances on record.  Just checked and found a couple others on the shelf under 80 minutes:

Boulez 79:23
Kubelik 77:19

Why do you trust Walter as accurately representing Mahler's practice (or intention)...especially since it was never performed in Mahler's lifetime and we have no sure way to tell how it would have ended up after the inevitable tinkering?

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 07:48:57 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 06, 2010, 07:19:28 AM
I'd be sad if the DGG Bernstein Mahler had not been recorded, since that cycle includes several of my favorite performances on record.  Just checked and found a couple others on the shelf under 80 minutes:

Boulez 79:23
Kubelik 77:19

Why do you trust Walter as accurately representing Mahler's practice (or intention)...especially since it was never performed in Mahler's lifetime and we have no sure way to tell how it would have ended up after the inevitable tinkering?

I really like the Kubelik 9th......especially the Audite label version

I think Bruno Walter gave the first public performance of Mahler 9th in 1912 with VPO, therefore trust his 1938 VPO to be close to composer's vision. During the early 1900s Walter was assistant to Mahler and was mentored by him thus having personal knowledge of Mahler's thoughts and performance style

Like Bernstein however his later Columbia SO version done when he was 84 is much slower

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511QbpNFLiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 06, 2010, 08:07:24 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 06, 2010, 07:19:28 AM
I'd be sad if the DGG Bernstein Mahler had not been recorded, since that cycle includes several of my favorite performances on record.  Just checked and found a couple others on the shelf under 80 minutes:

Boulez 79:23
Kubelik 77:19

Why do you trust Walter as accurately representing Mahler's practice (or intention)...especially since it was never performed in Mahler's lifetime and we have no sure way to tell how it would have ended up after the inevitable tinkering?

Also, Walter's later recording clocks in at 82 minutes or so.  I'm not sure I would regard the 1938 performance, which took place during the emotionally charged point in history at the outbreak of the war, as Walter's best judged performance.

Quote from: DarkAngel on April 06, 2010, 04:36:36 AM
I wish Bernstein had never made the 1980s Mahler DG set......(except for VPO 5th)
since it started a trend followed to this day of conductors slowing down and smoothing all the edges off Mahlers rugged exciting works  :(

Slowing down yes, smoothing all the edges, I don't see.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 06, 2010, 12:06:33 PM
Well, I think I will have to give that Barenboim 9 recording a try.  I have really liked what I have heard of Barenboim/Staatskapel Berlin in recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on April 06, 2010, 12:28:31 PM
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4778825

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/dg4778825.jpg)

Mahler: Symphonies 1-9 (complete) [various conductors, see link]
Symphony No. 10 in F sharp minor
Ed. Deryck Cooke
Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Riccardo Chailly

Das Lied von der Erde
Brigitte Fassbaender
Berliner Philharmoniker, Carlo Maria Giulini

Das klagende Lied
Susan Dunn, Brigitte Fassbaender, Werner Hollweg & Andreas Schmidt
Musikverein, Dusseldorf & Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Riccardo Chailly

Des Knaben Wunderhorn (12 songs, complete)
Anne Sofie von Otter, Ileana Cotrubas & Christa Ludwig
Berliner Philharmoniker & Wiener Staatsopernchor & Wiener Philharmoniker, Zubin Mehta & Claudio Abbado
Blumine (original 2nd movement of Symphony No. 1)
Boston Symphony Orchestra, Seiji Ozawa

Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (4 songs, complete)
Thomas Hampson
Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein

Kindertotenlieder
Thomas Hampson
Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein

Rückert-Lieder (5 songs, complete)
Thomas Hampson
Wiener Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein
Frühlingsmorgen (Lieder und Gesänge aus der Jugendzeit)

Orchestration: Harold Byrns
Bernd Weikl
Philharmonia Orchestra, Giuseppe Sinopoli
Erinnerung (Lieder und Gesänge aus der Jugendzeit)

Anne Sofie von Otter & Ralf Gothoni
Hans und Grete (Lieder und Gesänge aus der Jugendzeit)

Arrangements for Orchestra by Luciano Berio
Thomas Hampson
Philharmonia Orchestra, Luciano Berio

Serenade aus Don Juan (Lieder und Gesänge aus der Jugendzeit)
Anne Sofie von Otter & Ralf Gothoni

Phantasie aus Don Juan (Lieder und Gesänge aus der Jugendzeit)
Anne Sofie von Otter & Ralf Gothoni

Drei frühe Lieder for tenor & piano
Thomas Hampson & David Lutz

Piano Quartet (in one movement) in A minor
Gidon Kremer, Veronika Hagen, Clemens Hagen & Oleg Maisenberg

Weber: Die Drei Pintos: Entr'acte
completed by Gustav Mahler

Russian National Orchestra, Mikhail Pletnev
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Saul on April 08, 2010, 03:23:47 PM
Amazing version of the 8th...

Mahler - Symphony No. 8 - Ending (Rattle, NYOGB)

http://www.youtube.com/v/uYM54vhLYTU&feature=related
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 12, 2010, 06:45:56 PM
I finished listening to the Gielen cycle...
thoughts on the symphonies-

1: best I've heard, possibly
2: too uneven for me
3: don't remember much what i thought about it, other than it isn't my favorite
4: interesting, though i'm not sure what to think
5: second best I've heard, next to Chailly
6: didn't like it at all
7: best one
8: Excellent! This, alongside Bertini's, would have to be my favorite.
9: Surprisingly awesome!  :o He has his own personal interpretation which turns out to be refreshing and very original. It's extremely convincing, and I would put it as my 2nd favorite (right above Bernstein) recording. It even sounds better at moments than Karajan live does.  :o This one really deserves to be heard.
10: The set only has the Adagio, which I thought was okay. I've heard a youtube performance of the whole thing, which I thought was good, but have never heard the recording.


So, must haves would be 1, 5, 7, 8, and 9. That's basically half the set. Two (1 and 7) are definite favorites, and one (8) might be a favorite, if only I were more familiar with Bertini's version to compare it to. The only conductor to pull off three favorites so far would be Chailly (3, 5, and 10). Not to mention Gielen has two "second bests" for me (5 and 9).

My favorite Mahler conductors: Chailly, Gielen, Tennstedt, Karajan...  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 12, 2010, 07:03:30 PM
Greg your impression seems to match fairly well with mine (though I'm so in love with the style that I forgive the weaknesses where you couldn't), and if you want supplements (if you haven't heard these) in the modernist, cool, transparent style of Gielen on a couple of the ones that you don't like try Boulez on the 6th and Klemperer on the 2nd.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 13, 2010, 04:25:18 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 12, 2010, 07:03:30 PMand if you want supplements (if you haven't heard these) in the modernist, cool, transparent style of Gielen on a couple of the ones that you don't like try Boulez on the 6th ...

...except that there is absolutely nothing "cool" or "modernist" about Boulez' Sixth.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2010, 04:34:55 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 06, 2010, 12:28:31 PM
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4778825 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4778825)

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/dg4778825.jpg)

Well, that is certainly l'entchilade entière, isn't it?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on April 14, 2010, 02:37:16 PM
Can anyone tell me the following....
What is the difference between the Audite release of Kubeliks Mahler cycle, and the Mahler cycle by the same conductor and orchestra released by DG?

???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on April 14, 2010, 03:14:54 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 12, 2010, 07:03:30 PM
Boulez on the 6th and Klemperer on the 2nd.
Those are two that I have but haven't listened to in so long that I forgot what they even sound like. I do remember Boulez taking a good tempo at the start of the 6th... Karajan and Berstein are too fast for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2010, 03:23:52 PM
Quote from: Greg on April 14, 2010, 03:14:54 PM
Those are two that I have but haven't listened to in so long that I forgot what they even sound like. I do remember Boulez taking a good tempo at the start of the 6th... Karajan and Berstein are too fast for me.

I listened to Bernstein I last night and it is very fast!  I think a bit too fast. :-\  I'm planning on listening to the Bertini this evening, I recall him being more evenly paced in all things Mahler. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on April 14, 2010, 03:35:03 PM
Quote from: John on April 14, 2010, 02:37:16 PM
Can anyone tell me the following....
What is the difference between the Audite release of Kubeliks Mahler cycle, and the Mahler cycle by the same conductor and orchestra released by DG?

???

The DG cycle consists of studio recordings, the Audite of live recordings at various time, so no relationship, except the same conductor.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on April 14, 2010, 03:40:57 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 14, 2010, 03:35:03 PM
The DG cycle consists of studio recordings, the Audite of live recordings at various time, so no relationship, except the same conductor.

Thank you for that.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on April 14, 2010, 04:06:46 PM
Quote from: John on April 14, 2010, 02:37:16 PM
Can anyone tell me the following....
What is the difference between the Audite release of Kubeliks Mahler cycle, and the Mahler cycle by the same conductor and orchestra released by DG?

I have both sets.......if you could have only one and cost is no factor live Audite set gets overall recommendation, live recordings with very good sound quality and the extra edge a live performance usually delivers, but it will cost you much more since you have to buy each Audite label symphony seperately

You would not be unhappy with studio Kubelik boxset, overall I would rate it in top 5 of complete Mahler sets, very high consistent quality set
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on April 14, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
I did have the DG release but lost it last year, and now I want to replace it...hence my question and the glowing answers.
Looks like I'm going Audite, as I personally believe there is no recorded work better than a LIVE version, where everything is revealed about the music, the conductor and the Orchestra in one take.   8)
Right then.  I'm away to look for it...or them...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on April 14, 2010, 04:29:49 PM
Consider the hedgehog, who neither foils nor tins.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 15, 2010, 01:33:49 AM
Quote from: John on April 14, 2010, 02:37:16 PM
Can anyone tell me the following....
What is the difference between the Audite release of Kubeliks Mahler cycle, and the Mahler cycle by the same conductor and orchestra released by DG?

???
Quote from: Scarpia on April 14, 2010, 03:35:03 PM
The DG cycle consists of studio recordings, the Audite of live recordings at various time, so no relationship, except the same conductor.

That's not exactly true... there are several takes in the Audite-almost-Cycle [the Fourth can't be released due to someone being finicky with the rights--presumably the soprano] where the performance is the 'same' one--on the day before or after, in the same venue, except live (recorded for broadcast).
Then there are other performances that have several years between one another.
Where the performances are from the same run of concerts, the Audite is generally to be preferred (the sound is better), but caveats apply to the 8th. Where the performances are genuinely different it's a matter of choice. The 5th, for example, is stunning in the earlier DG version, but not quite so in the later, slower Audite version from the 80s.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papageno on April 22, 2010, 08:40:22 AM
at 2:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDGBHmKokL8#at=135

What piece is this?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Luke on April 22, 2010, 08:52:28 AM
Yes, it is, the Third Symphony. Nice, isn't it!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2010, 09:07:05 AM
Quote from: Papageno on April 22, 2010, 08:40:22 AM
at 2:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDGBHmKokL8#at=135

What piece is this?

Mahler, Third Symphony, fourth movement, Sehr langsam, Misterioso. The mezzo sings, O Mensch! Gib Acht! Was spricht die tiefe Mitternacht?, words from a poem by Nietzsche.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on April 22, 2010, 11:55:52 AM
New release on MDT - no info on content though....

24/05/10
£34.50

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/6089852.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on April 22, 2010, 11:57:12 AM
Quote from: papy on April 22, 2010, 11:55:52 AM
New release on MDT - no info on content though....

24/05/10
£34.50

At your service. (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/EMI/6089852)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on April 22, 2010, 12:04:04 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 22, 2010, 11:57:12 AM
At your service. (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/EMI/6089852)

thanks Karl  0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on April 22, 2010, 12:07:14 PM
Wow, early '70s Chicago Symphony playing the First? . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on April 22, 2010, 12:07:47 PM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/6945860.jpg)

MAHLER Symphony No. 2. Natalie Dessay, Alice Coote, Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra / Paavo Jarvi. Virgin 2cds

to be released 10/05/2010.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2010, 02:36:00 AM
Quote from: papy on April 22, 2010, 11:55:52 AM
New release on MDT - no info on content though....

24/05/10
£34.50

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/6089852.jpg)

And another complete edition, from DG, for an absurdly low price (http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Complete-Ltd-ed-Quasthoff/dp/B003BZC2RU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1272018732&sr=1-1) at amazon.de

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31yNTjIfWqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Contents here (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=DG+-+4778825)


Sarge

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on April 23, 2010, 04:27:48 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31yNTjIfWqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  vs  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/6089852.jpg)

When comparing these two I would say the DG boxset is stronger overall set of performances........
DG had bigger catalog (DG, Decca, Phillips) to pick best versions from

A good way to "sample" Mahler, I think I already have 90% of all these already in sets or individual issues so I am not a potential buyer
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2010, 04:50:10 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on April 23, 2010, 04:27:48 AM

When comparing these two I would say the DG boxset is stronger overall set of performances........
DG had bigger catalog (DG, Decca, Phillips) to pick best versions from

A good way to "sample" Mahler, I think I already have 90% of all these already in sets or individual issues so I am not a potential buyer

I agree the DG box is more attractive (although there are some classic gems in the EMI box too). DG's choices for the symphonies include some my favorites (excepting Abbado's Sixth). But, like you, I already have most of it (missing the Giulini DLVDE and Chailly Tenth).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on April 23, 2010, 05:07:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2010, 04:50:10 AM
I agree the DG box is more attractive (although there are some classic gems in the EMI box too).

Nice to see that the mania abateth not ; )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2010, 05:11:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 23, 2010, 05:07:24 AM
Nice to see that the mania abateth not ; )

It won't this year, or next...but some relief might come in 2012  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 24, 2010, 01:03:55 PM
Mahler News


forgot to mention: Honeck & Pittsburg are planning to record a whole Mahler Cycle for Exton.

1st already exists, 4th is being edited, 3rd will be recorded in June. Cycle projected over next five, six years.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 30, 2010, 04:03:15 AM


Reviewed, Not Necessarily Recommended: Mahler's Miscellaneous Movements

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/reviewed-not-necessarily-recommended_30.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/reviewed-not-necessarily-recommended_30.html)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kQ--bf4QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Mahler, 4 Movements,
P.Järvi / Frankfurt RSO
Virgin Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0026RQ1IU/nectarandambr-20)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 18, 2010, 11:46:20 AM
In 1995, there was a large Mahler Fest in Amsterdam, because it was 75 years after the first Mahler Fest that was organized by Willem Mengelberg in 1920 .... a rarity in those days.

In 1996, the Dutch telly broadcasted a documentary about Mahler: Conducting Mahler, where the conductors who acted at the 1995 Mahler Fest talked about how to capture Mahler's intentions. You can see and hear Chailly, Muti, Abbado, Rattle & Haitink, also in a lot of rehearsal moments with the Wiener Phil, Berliner Phil and the Concertgebouw Orchestra.

Here are links to the documentary (really one of my personal faves btw :)) .... with Dutch subtitles, but the main language is English (with some German & Dutch exceptions).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTAVi7W2y-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxBtgr_yb6A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbV3UK_7O9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4ztjg8dub0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF0vKn8fGeg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB0K0ndbAbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn_dAgPLkAk
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 18, 2010, 11:58:40 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 18, 2010, 11:46:20 AM
In 1995, there was a large Mahler Fest in Amsterdam, because it was 75 years after the first Mahler Fest that was organized by Willem Mengelberg in 1920 .... a rarity in those days.

In 1996, the Dutch telly broadcasted a documentary about Mahler: Conducting Mahler, where the conductors who acted at the 1995 Mahler Fest talked about how to capture Mahler's intentions. You can see and hear Chailly, Muti, Abbado, Rattle & Haitink, also in a lot of rehearsal moments with the Wiener Phil, Berliner Phil and the Concertgebouw Orchestra.

Here are links to the documentary (really one of my personal faves btw :)) .... with Dutch subtitles, but the main language is English (with some German & Dutch exceptions).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTAVi7W2y-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxBtgr_yb6A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbV3UK_7O9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4ztjg8dub0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF0vKn8fGeg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB0K0ndbAbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn_dAgPLkAk

Now that you mention it, I think I just might have listened to the "incomplete 10th" once (but I still don't remember a note of it!), because those Mahler Feest performances were my introduction to Mahler's works apart from the second symphony*. It contains every major work of his (symphonies and lieder), with the 10th performed by Haitink and GMJ.



*Edit: To be fair, performances from other occasions were actually responsible for introducing me to his first and sixth, also.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 18, 2010, 12:17:47 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 18, 2010, 11:58:40 AM
Now that you mention it, I think I just might have listened to the "incomplete 10th" once (but I still don't remember a note of it!), because those Mahler Feest performances were my introduction to Mahler's works apart from the second symphony*. It contains every major work of his (symphonies and lieder), with the 10th performed by Haitink and GMJ.

*Edit: To be fair, performances from other occasions were actually responsible for introducing me to his first and sixth, also.
So, you actually went to the 'Gebouw' and saw and heard those performances in concert? If so, I really envy you!
(Or did you watch the large screen in the ridge tent?)

Mahler in Amsterdam is always something special, because Mengelberg and his orchestra embraced Mahler's music from the first moment on. And Mahler never disappeared there .... only during the war, when unfortunately Mengelberg accepted without many protests every Nazi theory about Jews and Entartete Musik.

I once walked those famous conductor stairs, because our seats were behind the orchestra, and my heart was really pounding: man, all those great men (and women! All right, Stan, AND WOMEN!) who walked this way up and down, Mahler included! After that walk, we had a great chat with the first trumpet player and then we heard a great performance of Mahler's Fifth by the Minnesota Orchestra & Osmo Vänskä.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 18, 2010, 12:28:30 PM
Quote from: Marc on May 18, 2010, 12:17:47 PM
So, you actually went to the 'Gebouw' and saw and heard those performances in concert? If so, I really envy you!
(Or did you watch the large screen in the ridge tent?)

Haha! ;D Not at all, my friend... I have never seen an orchestra-proper perform live in concert. I was referring to a collection of MP3 files. :)

I just watched the first video from the documentary and I can completely sympathise with Simon Rattle about how he felt after listening to the second, which, co-incidentally, was also my introduction to Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 18, 2010, 12:33:19 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 18, 2010, 12:28:30 PM
Haha! ;D Not at all, my friend... I have never seen an orchestra-proper perform live in concert. I was referring to a collection of MP3 files. :)
;D

Quote from: Opus106
I just watched the first video from the documentary and I can completely sympathise with Simon Rattle about how he felt after listening to the second, which, co-incidentally, was also my introduction to Mahler.
My introductions were the First and Fourth, on vinyl (Haitink/Concertgebouw). But yes, the first time I heard the 2nd, especially the first movement, Urlicht and the closing stages of the Finale, I somehow sensed I would be hooked for life! :)

[EDIT: forgot to mention the third movement (the 'Fischpredigt'), with its poignant rhythms. I remember thinking when I first listened to Scherzi by Shostakovich: Dmitry knew his Mahler! :)]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2010, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 18, 2010, 12:28:30 PM
I just watched the first video from the documentary and I can completely sympathise with Simon Rattle about how he felt after listening to the second, which, co-incidentally, was also my introduction to Mahler.

The Second was my first Mahler too: a library copy of the Klemperer studio performance. The library didn't have any more Mahler. I heard my next Mahler on the radio: the Fifth, a New York Phil concert (I assume Lenny was conducting). Next I heard the Sixth live in Cleveland, conducted by Szell. At that point I was truly hooked. I was 18.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on May 18, 2010, 02:29:25 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2010, 01:56:23 PM
The Second was my first Mahler too: a library copy of the Klemperer studio performance. The library didn't have any more Mahler. I heard my next Mahler on the radio: the Fifth, a New York Phil concert (I assume Lenny was conducting). Next I heard the Sixth live in Cleveland, conducted by Szell. At that point I was truly hooked. I was 18.

And if, as you imply, it convinced you to enlist in the Army to fight in Vietnam, I think I can make a case for the work being banned!  They probably play it in Taliban Mosques in Kandahar.   ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2010, 07:20:48 PM
Since we're onto "my first Mahler"--
I have to admit that I don't remember what it was, or when.  But undoubtedly it was on what used to be Miami's classical music station, the now long gone WTMI, because that's how I got my music as a teenager.

My first Mahler CD is much easier for me to pinpoint: Haitink's 4th with Elly Ameling and the Concertgebouw Orchestra (at that time, they were not yet "Royal").

My second was Levine's 5th with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

And there I stopped.  Partly because my budget for CDs was not as big as it is now (or, more precisely, because back then I paid attention to my budget for CDs) and partly because my focus then was on opera and baroque, and partly because classical radio was alive and well back then, so my own CD library was not so important.

I didn't come back to Mahler until twenty years or more, when I started to buy CDs again once classical radio in any format seemed to have completely died. 

But I've kind of made up for the neglect since then: a rough count indicates that, while I have more recordings of  Bach than  of any other composer, Mahler and Beethoven are neck and neck for second place, with about 100 each.  (My CD collection looks large, but apparently pales in comparison to many others here.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 19, 2010, 04:47:52 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 18, 2010, 07:20:48 PM
[....]
My first Mahler CD is much easier for me to pinpoint: Haitink's 4th with Elly Ameling and the Concertgebouw Orchestra (at that time, they were not yet "Royal").
That was my first vinyl Mahler, still my favourite 4th. IMO, Elly Ameling is ideal for the Finale song. 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 19, 2010, 04:55:16 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 19, 2010, 04:47:52 AM
That was my first vinyl Mahler, still my favourite 4th. IMO, Elly Ameling is ideal for the Finale song. 0:)

She is marvelous...I have a vinyl copy too...but, Haitink takes the music faster than I like.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 19, 2010, 05:49:34 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on May 18, 2010, 02:29:25 PM
And if, as you imply, it convinced you to enlist in the Army to fight in Vietnam, I think I can make a case for the work being banned!

;D :D ;D

The reasons, the relationhships, the events that led me to war were more complicated than a single hearing of a Mahler symphony, but hearing it did have a profound effect on my personal philosophy, and that philosophy had a profound effect on my life.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 19, 2010, 06:02:13 AM
My first Mahler was actually listening to the slow movements of the 1st and 5th from some "relaxing classical" set I found in my house.  ::)

After that, I started checking out CDs from the library, since at the time, I was actually living in an area with a good library system with tons of great stuff (which I even used to work for). I'm not sure at all which symphony was the first one I listened to completely, but if I had to make a guess, it would be his 5th. Before I listened, I had been reading on this forum some criticisms, and they influenced my opinion of it, even though I didn't even really listen that well. After that, probably the 1st... then later on, all but 7, 8, and 10, which came later.

I never really had an epiphany, or any specific moment when I was like, "Aha! This is the best thing ever!"- it just grew on me after the course of a year or so.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 19, 2010, 09:18:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 19, 2010, 04:55:16 AM
She is marvelous...I have a vinyl copy too...but, Haitink takes the music faster than I like.
Well, I mentioned this before somewhere on this board (if I remember well), but Mahler himself wrote in 1900 to Natalie Bauer-Lechner that the entire symphony should last forty-five minutes! He even made a note of the durations in his own autograph score: 15, 10, 11, 8 and the total of 44!
Poco adagio apparently means just a little bit on the slow side or somewhat slowly. He wrote to Bauer-Lechner that in fact it should be played as a 'Moderato'.
So: in this case Haitink is in fact slow, as are all his fellow conductors. :)
Klemperer (EMI) and Kubelik (DG) are 'relatively' fast in the 3rd movement, and overall Kubelik comes rather close to Mahler's wishes, with a total duration of 52 minutes.

I once read that a conductor (forgot his name) said something like if Mahler would have wanted the Fourth to last one hour, he would have written more notes. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on May 19, 2010, 06:55:24 PM
Two more Abbado DVDs ordered, I have complete Abbado set except no 1st or 8th DVD yet released......
Watching Abbado 7th as I write this

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51czzKZiQ2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ismea-5rL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Even if you already have the 1970s Bernstein DVD set this newer set by Abbado is very desireable, the picture and sound quality are far superior and Abbado arguably best living Mahler conductor.

As always DVD cost not much more than CD only release........do what must be done  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 20, 2010, 03:56:31 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 19, 2010, 09:18:58 AM
Well, I mentioned this before somewhere on this board (if I remember well), but Mahler himself wrote in 1900 to Natalie Bauer-Lechner that the entire symphony should last forty-five minutes! He even made a note of the durations in his own autograph score: 15, 10, 11, 8 and the total of 44!

I know. If he were alive today, I'd have a very stern talk with him  ;D

QuotePoco adagio apparently means just a little bit on the slow side or somewhat slowly. He wrote to Bauer-Lechner that in fact it should be played as a 'Moderato'.
So: in this case Haitink is in fact slow, as are all his fellow conductors. :)
Klemperer (EMI) and Kubelik (DG) are 'relatively' fast in the 3rd movement, and overall Kubelik comes rather close to Mahler's wishes, with a total duration of 52 minutes.

Seriously, I'm not disputing anything you've written. It's just a personal preference for a slower tempo and, lucky for me, several conductors give me what I want: Maazel, Chailly, Svetlanov  8)  Still, I'd love to hear Ameling at a slower tempo too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 20, 2010, 05:38:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 20, 2010, 03:56:31 AM
I know. If he were alive today, I'd have a very stern talk with him  ;D

Seriously, I'm not disputing anything you've written. It's just a personal preference for a slower tempo and, lucky for me, several conductors give me what I want: Maazel, Chailly, Svetlanov  8)  Still, I'd love to hear Ameling at a slower tempo too.
Actually, it wasn't really meant to dispute. Pleaze, keep your personal preferences! :)

I just remembered this story and couldn't find my earlier post. The search function wasn't helpful, either (it's a bad searching machine anyway).

For me: like Mahler himself, I prefer the 2nd movement in 10 minutes or so; a slower tempo makes it more spooky. Good example of this: Inbal/Frankfurt.
The 3rd movement can bear both a slow and a faster tempo IMO, as long as it keeps on flowing.
In the 4th part it depends on the (language?) skills of the singer. If the words become totally unintelligible, then the conductor should take a slower tempo. But I understand Mahler's wish for a fast tempo: it shows how excited the child has become by all what he's seeing!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on May 20, 2010, 05:51:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 20, 2010, 03:56:31 AM
Still, I'd love to hear Ameling at a slower tempo too.

Sarge

You should be able to do that, in Audacity or any good audio editor there is option to change tempo while maintaining pitch. Never tried it myself but certain chap Barrington-Coupe had some moderate success with the procedure.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 20, 2010, 05:53:57 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 20, 2010, 05:51:50 AM
You should be able to do that, in Audacity or any good audio editor there is option to change tempo while maintaining pitch. Never tried it myself but certain chap Barrington-Coupe had some moderate success with the procedure.

Yeah, but that's cheating  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on May 25, 2010, 11:50:30 AM
Does it look like the Sinopoli cycle is getting a cheap re-issue ?

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948037421.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/8178248 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/8178248)

3CDs less than the original set... hmm...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: papy on May 25, 2010, 11:50:30 AM
Does it look like the Sinopoli cycle is getting a cheap re-issue ?

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948037421.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/8178248 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/8178248)
3CDs less than the original set... hmm...

Yep. Saw the listing (sans cover) a couple of months back, and when it didn't appear on Amazon.com, I guessed that it was one of those Germany-only boxes from Universal. The new set contains only the symphonies and none of the lieder including DLvDE from the earlier one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Verena on May 25, 2010, 12:50:34 PM
QuoteYep. Saw the listing (sans cover) a couple of months back, and when it didn't appear on Amazon.com, I guessed that it was one of those Germany-only boxes from Universal. The new set contains only the symphonies and none of the lieder including DLvDE from the earlier one.

It does include at least some lieder: the cover heading (below "Die 10 Symphonien") reads "Orchesterlieder", i.e., 'orchestral songs'; the jpc homepage lists the following lieder as part of the contents: Das klagende Lied; Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen; 6 Frühe Lieder ('6 early songs'); Kindertotenlieder; so possibly no DLvDE  :'(


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 25, 2010, 01:18:59 PM
Quote from: papy on May 25, 2010, 11:50:30 AM
Does it look like the Sinopoli cycle is getting a cheap re-issue ?

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948037421.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/8178248 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/8178248)

3CDs less than the original set... hmm...

Yes!

His cycle is IIRC the only 'major' complete one I'm missing, if you don't count Svetlanov (historical) or Inbal (is it really 'major'?) - the main snag having been the price. Most excellent news: thank you. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on May 25, 2010, 02:19:09 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
....none of the lieder including DLvDE from the earlier one.

The cover lists Staatskapelle Dresden and the only Mahler Sinopoli recorded with them for DG is Das Lied von der Erde.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on May 25, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
Quote from: papy on May 25, 2010, 11:50:30 AM
Does it look like the Sinopoli cycle is getting a cheap re-issue ?

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948037421.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/8178248 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/8178248)

3CDs less than the original set... hmm...

My one concern with these German Eloquences is the "AMSI" logo which stands for "Ambient Surround Imaging."  There is very little information available as to what this means, but it seems to be a scheme where the CDs are encoded for Dolby Pro-logic surround processing. 

I got one one of these releases (Guarneri Quartet Beethoven cycle) and it sounded odd.  I ended up selling it off to get the Brilliant Classics issue of the same recordings, which I liked better.



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 25, 2010, 09:25:19 PM
Quote from: Verena on May 25, 2010, 12:50:34 PM
It does include at least some lieder: the cover heading (below "Die 10 Symphonien") reads "Orchesterlieder", i.e., 'orchestral songs'; the jpc homepage lists the following lieder as part of the contents: Das klagende Lied; Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen; 6 Frühe Lieder ('6 early songs'); Kindertotenlieder; so possibly no DLvDE  :'(

Quote from: Drasko on May 25, 2010, 02:19:09 PM
The cover lists Staatskapelle Dresden and the only Mahler Sinopoli recorded with them for DG is Das Lied von der Erde.

My bad. I assume the works are more horrifically split among the fewer number of CDs, then. :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 28, 2010, 07:54:32 PM
While following a commodious vicus of recirculation on the Intertubes, I found this
http://www.gustavmahler2010.cz/Mahler-Hudba.aspx
which is heavily populated by the Neumann/Czech Philharmonic cycle, although not completely, so it may be of interest to anyone who doesn't have the Neumann cycle but is interested in it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 07:10:10 AM
Maazel VPO cycle being ripped as I type this. Impressions will follow, when available. ;)


(And I do remember I also owe my impressions of Tennstedt's latest-issued 2nd. But it has puzzled me in a way few recordings I've ever heard have managed, and so I delay them until I've revisited a couple of other favourite 2nds, first.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on May 29, 2010, 08:04:42 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 07:10:10 AM
Maazel VPO cycle being ripped as I type this. Impressions will follow, when available. ;)


(And I do remember I also owe my impressions of Tennstedt's latest-issued 2nd. But it has puzzled me in a way few recordings I've ever heard have managed, and so I delay them until I've revisited a couple of other favourite 2nds, first.)

I'm one of the nay-sayers on this one.  I got #2 when it first came out and it was wonderful, but when I got the cycle later I was extremely displeased.  The recording of 5 was what turned me, extremely fussy performance, never letting the VPO cut loose or develop any momentum.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 29, 2010, 09:12:59 AM
Why Mahler? with Norman Lebrecht.

Perhaps some Mahlerians on this board are interested in hearing this.

http://rapidshare.com/files/365555182/WHY_MAHLER.mp3
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on May 31, 2010, 09:08:48 AM
Quote from: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 07:10:10 AM
(And I do remember I also owe my impressions of Tennstedt's latest-issued 2nd. But it has puzzled me in a way few recordings I've ever heard have managed, and so I delay them until I've revisited a couple of other favourite 2nds, first.)

Are live, Tennstedt versions of all nine Mahler symphonies readily available?  His is my favorite cycle but it seems that in nearly every discussion of his work you hear that it was even better live.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 09:12:59 AM
Quote from: BMW on May 31, 2010, 09:08:48 AM
Are live, Tennstedt versions of all nine Mahler symphonies readily available?

A live version of the 9th was posted at SymphonyShare (http://groups.google.co.in/group/Symphonyshare/browse_thread/thread/58fcb89b44e0e717) (registration required, and is free) just yesterday. While you're there, you will also find quite a few Bruckner/Tennstedt.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on May 31, 2010, 09:14:17 AM
Quote from: BMW on May 31, 2010, 09:08:48 AM
Are live, Tennstedt versions of all nine Mahler symphonies readily available?  His is my favorite cycle but it seems that in nearly every discussion of his work you hear that it was even better live.

I have the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th (on DVD) live by Tennstedt. I know there's another 1st out there, as well.

Interestingly, all of the above rank among - if they aren't outright - my favourite versions of the respective symphonies. And his studio 4th is probably my favourite on record, making me positively yearn for a hypothetical live one that, following the pattern, tops it!


Edit: These are all officially released. I've no idea what exists unofficially. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on May 31, 2010, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 09:12:59 AM
A live version of the 9th was posted at SymphonyShare (http://groups.google.co.in/group/Symphonyshare/browse_thread/thread/58fcb89b44e0e717) (registration required, and is free) just yesterday. While you're there, you will also find quite a few Bruckner/Tennstedt.

Many thanks for directing me towards this group!  Looks great!

Quote from: Renfield on May 31, 2010, 09:14:17 AM
Interestingly, all of the above rank among - if they aren't outright - my favourite versions of the respective symphonies. And his studio 4th is probably my favourite on record, making me positively yearn for a hypothetical live one that, following the pattern, tops it!

There is one on Symphony Share!  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 31, 2010, 11:40:35 AM
The beginning of yet another Mahler cycle.

Frankfurt. Jaervi.

"Bruckner, I love; but Mahler is an addiction..."

P.J.: "I know exactly what you mean!"

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413CCpsD2qL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
G. Mahler
Symphony No.2
Frankfurt RSO
Jaervi (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0034YLX6Y?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0034YLX6Y)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 11:49:58 AM
How did he manage to record for two different labels at the same time? (I'm assuming that the Bruckner recordings are on-going. And, I have no knowledge of the history of performers extensively recording for different labels during the same period, if any.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 11:51:01 AM
Quote from: BMW on May 31, 2010, 10:12:23 AM
Many thanks for directing me towards this group!  Looks great!

It's my pleasure. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 31, 2010, 11:57:12 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 11:49:58 AM
How did he manage to record for two different labels at the same time? (I'm assuming that the Bruckner recordings are on-going. And, I have no knowledge of the history of performers extensively recording for different labels during the same period, if any.)

Two labels? Three, if not four.

RCA/Sony with Bremen.

Virgin/EMI with Frankfurt.

Telarc with Cincinnati. [Only until the end of this season]

??? with Orchestre d'Paris.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 12:01:19 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 31, 2010, 11:57:12 AM
Two labels? Three, if not four.

RCA/Sony with Bremen.

Virgin/EMI with Frankfurt.

Telarc with Cincinnati. [Only until the end of this season]

??? with Orchestre d'Paris.

Oh! I didn't know that they could do that sort of thing. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 31, 2010, 12:20:35 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 12:01:19 PM
Oh! I didn't know that they could do that sort of thing. ;D

He doesn't have an exclusive contract... simple as that. Just like Yannick Neguet-Seguin records for Atma Classique and EMI or Papa Jaervi for DG, BIS, and whatnot. (Though YN-S will probably be made an exclusive EMI artist as soon as his contractual agreement with the Canadians runs out...)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 31, 2010, 03:23:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 31, 2010, 11:40:35 AM
The beginning of yet another Mahler cycle.

Frankfurt. Jaervi.

"Bruckner, I love; but Mahler is an addiction..."

P.J.: "I know exactly what you mean!"

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413CCpsD2qL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
G. Mahler
Symphony No.2
Frankfurt RSO
Jaervi (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0034YLX6Y?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0034YLX6Y)
Mmmm.... Jarvi- nice!

I saw Norrington mentioned earlier on this thread. Anyone hear it? Just read about it (apparently people don't like it at all), and it's supposed to be the fastest recording of the Adagio. The slowest recording is supposed to be Levine's, I suppose... listening to a clip of that one on youtube, and  :o .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 31, 2010, 03:34:31 PM
Found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eifnz72jLT0

The 5 levels of Mahler enthusiasm. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on May 31, 2010, 05:39:29 PM
And another thing I'd like to share.

http://ipromesisposi.blogspot.com/2010/02/mahler-9-sinfonia.html

Here you can download many different recordings of Mahler 9:
Walter, Barbirolli, Horenstein, Klemperer, Guilini, Bernstein/Berlin, Karajan live, Sinopoli, Boulez, Levine/Munich Phil, Abbado, Chailly, and Rattle.
(13 in all)

I found this since I was looking for Levine... I also hear that his recording with Philadelphia is supposed to be better, since it has better sound, but I still can't wait to listen to this one.

The only other ones I have on this list are: Karajan live and Chailly.  :o
Talk about a nice discovery!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 09:48:07 PM
Quote from: Greg on May 31, 2010, 05:39:29 PM
And another thing I'd like to share.

http://ipromesisposi.blogspot.com/2010/02/mahler-9-sinfonia.html

Here you can download many different recordings of Mahler 9:
Walter, Barbirolli, Horenstein, Klemperer, Guilini, Bernstein/Berlin, Karajan live, Sinopoli, Boulez, Levine/Munich Phil, Abbado, Chailly, and Rattle.
(13 in all)

I found this since I was looking for Levine... I also hear that his recording with Philadelphia is supposed to be better, since it has better sound, but I still can't wait to listen to this one.

The only other ones I have on this list are: Karajan live and Chailly.  :o
Talk about a nice discovery!

That's like an overdose of death.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 01, 2010, 04:53:02 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 31, 2010, 09:48:07 PM
That's like an overdose of death.
LOL
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 04:59:20 AM
Quote from: Greg on May 31, 2010, 05:39:29 PM
And another thing I'd like to share.

http://ipromesisposi.blogspot.com/2010/02/mahler-9-sinfonia.html

Here you can download many different recordings of Mahler 9:
Walter, Barbirolli, Horenstein, Klemperer, Guilini, Bernstein/Berlin, Karajan live, Sinopoli, Boulez, Levine/Munich Phil, Abbado, Chailly, and Rattle.
(13 in all)

I found this since I was looking for Levine... I also hear that his recording with Philadelphia is supposed to be better, since it has better sound, but I still can't wait to listen to this one.

The only other ones I have on this list are: Karajan live and Chailly.  :o
Talk about a nice discovery!

Perhaps the most facepalm-worthy thing for me is when I realised I only lack Levine, Giulini, Boulez and Horenstein, from the above, all by choice, and Sinopoli, which should be finding its way to me by the end of the month; and then felt sad I couldn't be as excited. :(

But yeah, good find if you've only heard these two. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2010, 05:28:54 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 04:59:20 AM
Perhaps the most facepalm-worthy thing for me is when I realised I only lack Levine, Giulini, Boulez and Horenstein, from the above, all by choice, and Sinopoli, which should be finding its way to me by the end of the month; and then felt sad I couldn't be as excited. :(

It's sad, isn't it, that we are both in a place where a discovery like Greg's doesn't raise even a little tingle of excitement. I only lack Levine and Abbado...and like Greg, I'm more interested in Levine's Philly Ninth. Have no interest in Abbado.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 05:44:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2010, 05:28:54 AM
It's sad, isn't it, that we are both in a place where a discovery like Greg's doesn't raise even a little tingle of excitement. I only lack Levine and Abbado...and like Greg, I'm more interested in Levine's Philly Ninth. Have no interest in Abbado.

Sarge

Out of peripheral interest, how's the Boulez?

I know I'm not terribly fond of Giulini's way with Mahler (I find it a bit derivative, compared to the Walters, Klemperers, and Karajans of his time), and I'm pretty sure there was a good reason I struck that Horenstein off my list, possibly due to the quality of the ensemble.


Yet the more I think of it, my lack of interest for Boulez feels potentially unjustified. I love his 3rd and 8th, and have great respect for his 6th; I even rather like his studio 2nd, that seems to have been rather coolly received in general.

Originally, I had felt that his style, and what the 9th specifically demands (or what I demand from the 9th) would be at odds. But that was before his 8th came out, which surprised me to no end with its tenderness and quiet awe... Do you think I should investigate?



P.S.: While I'm at it, to avoid double-posting, have you - or has anyone - heard any of Zinman's recordings?

I heard him live in the 4th, and am still reeling from the impact of that concert, and the extent to which it made me rethink the piece. But I'm skeptical as to whether he's worked similar miracles in the studio; or perhaps whether I'd be impressed as much.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 01, 2010, 05:49:46 AM
Quote from: Greg on May 31, 2010, 05:39:29 PM
And another thing I'd like to share.


The only other ones I have on this list are: Karajan live and Chailly.  :o
Talk about a nice discovery!

Is there any reason why we should assume that the uploading (and downloading) of these files is not illegal and the act of acquiring them not theft?
If that's (not) so, I'm astounded by the impressive callousness with which such sites are being treated by those who allegedly love the music that would never have been possible to make if we lived in a 'theft-is-cool society'.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 01, 2010, 05:56:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2010, 05:28:54 AM
It's sad, isn't it, that we are both in a place where a discovery like Greg's doesn't raise even a little tingle of excitement. I only lack Levine and Abbado...and like Greg, I'm more interested in Levine's Philly Ninth. Have no interest in Abbado.

Sarge

I lack Giulini and Horenstein; Levine is perverse... the longest last movement in the history of the ninth symphony. A friend was at the performance... in fact, at all three. He said it was one of the best concerts in his life and it his favorite recording of the Ninth [indeed, of Mahler], too. But he does admit that his love for it on CD may be colored by the live experience.

I've reviewed a few of those listed a couple years back; with timings given: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html)

Renfield: The Boulez is VERY good... but then so is most of Boulez (except the 8th, which is a dud in my opinion). Stirring, riveting...and then impeccably held (though not mysterious) in the last movement.

I've heard all of the Zinman out there, except the 8th. He's very, very good at not exaggerating anything. Nothing at all. Compare his First, for example, to Honeck's First--night and day. Most of his Mahler has not leapt out at me; but his Third is very good and recommendable especially if you enjoy surround sound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 06:07:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 01, 2010, 05:49:46 AM
Is there any reason why we should assume that the uploading (and downloading) of these files is not illegal and the act of acquiring them theft?
If that's so, I'm astounded by the impressive callousness with which such sites are being treated by those who allegedly love the music that would never have been possible to make if we lived in a 'theft-is-cool society'.

Easy on the trigger, though! Among all of us in this conversation, only Greg has actually expressed interest in downloading the tracks, and I think you know as well as I do that he is not drowning in money.

What the Italians who own the site intend is a matter for Blogspot to adjudicate, for better or for worse.

(Though let me not be misunderstood: I am not supporting them. Just putting this into a more realistic context.)


Re Boulez, given how we seem to be at odds about the 8th, how would you compare it to his 6th?

Re Zinman, I was afraid of that. Perhaps the single most remarkable thing about that concert was how the lack of any 'usual' exaggeration really brought out the emotion in the piece 'underneath' it, in the live setting.

But when there isn't a concert hall with an acoustic as immediate as the Usher Hall to bring the clear-sounding notes home, as it were, and no audience to make sure it's all going somewhere, I'm wondering what happens with Zinman's approach.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 01, 2010, 06:09:18 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 05:44:15 AM
Out of peripheral interest, how's the Boulez?

I had it when it first came out. The first mvt. is quite powerful, but the rest doesn't work for me. The finale was downright repulsive - it was like Boulez performing an emotion-ectomy on the music. I found it so cold that I had to put on the Barbirolli version immediately afterwards, just to get some feeling back.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 01, 2010, 06:10:14 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 06:07:30 AM

Re Boulez, given how we seem to be at odds about the 8th, how would you compare it to his 6th?

Are you kidding? I love, love, adore, kneel before his 6th. Only his 8th I don't like; the rest I feel anywhere from positive, to impressed, to absolutely-ga-ga about. Boulez' 6th is up there with Barbirolli, Gielen, Mitrop.--just better sounding than all the rest.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 01, 2010, 06:10:30 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 05:44:15 AM
I know I'm not terribly fond of Giulini's way with Mahler (I find it a bit derivative, compared to the Walters, Klemperers, and Karajans of his time),


Boy are you lucky that M is not still around. He would have had your entrails across a bed of lettuce for that one. What do you mean anyway? His 9th is superb.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on June 01, 2010, 06:26:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2010, 09:12:59 AM
Why Mahler? with Norman Lebrecht.

Perhaps some Mahlerians on this board are interested in hearing this.

http://rapidshare.com/files/365555182/WHY_MAHLER.mp3

Interesting -- thank you for posting this!

What do you all think about Christa Ludwig saying she never felt Mahler until performing his music with Bernstein (after having sung Das Lied von der Erde with Karajan and Klemperer among others)? 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 01, 2010, 06:38:38 AM
I assume anyone is free to comment on this. I have had the Klemperer recording for not far off 40 years and I heard Ludwig sing DLVDE under Karajan. To me, she sounded detached, but I don't know whether Bernstein made any detectable difference to the outcome. As far as I was concerned, the approach suited the stoic approach of Klemperer and I found the whole Karajan experience a disappointment as nothing in the performance really involved me, it sounded wonderful, but did not have the undertow that Klemperer had and that at that point had been my main point of reference.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 06:39:14 AM
Ack! Too many threads in this thread. :o

Quote from: jlaurson on June 01, 2010, 06:10:14 AM
Are you kidding? I love, love, adore, kneel before his 6th. Only his 8th I don't like; the rest I feel anywhere from positive, to impressed, to absolutely-ga-ga about. Boulez' 6th is up there with Barbirolli, Gielen, Mitrop.--just better sounding than all the rest.

Yeah, I know that. And I know it's a good recording, as I already have it. ;)

The question is, given that our opinions converge about the 6th, how would you compare that commonly-liked recording to the 9th?


Quote from: knight on June 01, 2010, 06:10:30 AM
Boy are you lucky that M is not still around. He would have had your entrails across a bed of lettuce for that one. What do you mean anyway? His 9th is superb.

Mike

I haven't heard his 9th itself, so my impressions from his Chicago 1st that I have heard might not necessarily be appropriate for estimating what he could do with the 9th. Yet based on that 1st, Giulini strikes me as someone who might do good Mahler of a non-histrionic variety (Lenny), that's also not 'concept Mahler'; but next to Klemperer, Walter and Barbirolli, from that time, and Karajan to an extent, who all turned in readings that don't make you (me) think "oh, he's doing a this or that with the finale", and are so utterly persuasive, I somehow don't expect Giulini to have much to add for Mahler's 9th in particular, beyond an excellent performance of the same symphony the others already nailed.

By contrast, his Brahms and his Bruckner are self-recommending on the basis of other things than interpretation, and even in that area have things to add that aren't just 'as good as Karajan', but form an equally strong statement.


Hopefully this makes sense! I realise my assumptions might be completely off the mark. But as a result of them, I wouldn't go after that version by default, like so many of the others in the A list. That's mainly what I was saying, albeit crudely. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2010, 06:39:54 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 05:44:15 AM
Out of peripheral interest, how's the Boulez?

That was the last of his cycle I acquired (just a few weeks ago) and I have not listened to it. Sorry. The only Boulez Mahler I haven't liked, though, is the Sixth. I don't know what's wrong with me. It just didn't make an impression and drew an emotional blank. I can't say that about many M6s! I tend to think the fault is mine though. Maybe I was having a bad hair day or something  ;D I'll give it another try soon. And must hear that Ninth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2010, 06:47:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 01, 2010, 05:56:51 AM
I lack Giulini and Horenstein; Levine is perverse...

Which is why I'm interested  ;D  Owning 28 Mahler Ninths already, I'm looking for something completely different. Perhaps I will order that Munich Ninth (it's available--the OOP Philly Ninth can get expensive!).

Sarge 

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 01, 2010, 06:50:12 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 06:39:14 AM

The question is, given that our opinions converge about the 6th, how would you compare that commonly-liked recording to the 9th?

I'm not as crazy about his 9th as, say, about his 1st and 6th. But it's about up there with his 1st and 7th as far as my preferences go.

To quote myself from 10 minutes ago: "Renfield: The Boulez 9th is VERY good... [...] Stirring, riveting...and then impeccably-held (though not at all mysterious) in the last movement. "
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 06:53:57 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 01, 2010, 06:50:12 AM
I'm not as crazy about his 9th as, say, about his 1st and 6th. But it's about up there with his 1st and 7th as far as my preferences go.

To quote myself from 10 minutes ago: "Renfield: The Boulez 9th is VERY good... [...] Stirring, riveting...and then impeccably-held (though not at all mysterious) in the last movement. "

Yeah, I'd typed that before catching that thread of our discussion, in the other thread. Too many threads!

But thank you. And Sarge, and everyone else for your varied and valuable comments. :)


I am, furthermore, amused that I seem to strongly like both single Boulez performances each of you two strongly dislikes. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 01, 2010, 10:56:29 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2010, 09:12:59 AM
Why Mahler? with Norman Lebrecht.

Perhaps some Mahlerians on this board are interested in hearing this.

http://rapidshare.com/files/365555182/WHY_MAHLER.mp3

thank you for the link, Marc  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 01, 2010, 01:05:18 PM
Quote from: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 06:07:30 AM
Easy on the trigger, though! Among all of us in this conversation, only Greg has actually expressed interest in downloading the tracks, and I think you know as well as I do that he is not drowning in money.
Lol. Yeah, I don't even buy anything for myself, hardly ever... I've been needing new clothes and a new cell phone for months, and am scared of spending the money. One day I'll be able to buy more than a couple of CDs a year...  :-[


Now, I have to add that I have heard Giulini before- I have some live performance that I got from SymphonyShare- he is with Philadelphia, in 1972. Is the recording with Chicago similar sounding? Honestly, I hated the performance so much that I had a hard time listening to it. That... is saying a lot.  ???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 01, 2010, 07:51:33 PM
Quote from: Renfield on June 01, 2010, 05:44:15 AM
Out of peripheral interest, how's the Boulez?

P.S.: While I'm at it, to avoid double-posting, have you - or has anyone - heard any of Zinman's recordings?

I heard him live in the 4th, and am still reeling from the impact of that concert, and the extent to which it made me rethink the piece. But I'm skeptical as to whether he's worked similar miracles in the studio; or perhaps whether I'd be impressed as much.

I have Zinman's 1, 3, 4, 5, 6,  and 7; will probably be getting his 2 and 8 in the near future, and plan on getting the remaining issues as they appear.  So obviously I like his cycle--but the only two I would say "You have to have this one" are 3 and 4 (so apparently he was able to replicate the concert in the recording sessions*.   1 and 5 are good but not top tier; 6 and 7 seem to be the weakest ones--sturdy but don't strike me like other recordings have.  The sonics are among the best I've heard--almost as if the SACD layer can be heard in a regular CD player.

*the recording was made 13-15 November 2006.  Was that simultaneous with the concert you heard?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on June 01, 2010, 10:21:50 PM
Does anyone have a line on inexpensive (/less expensive) copies of La Grange's biography volumes?  I would like to make them a part of my summer reading but is $50+ a volume as good as it gets?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on June 01, 2010, 10:47:21 PM
Quote from: knight on June 01, 2010, 06:38:38 AM
I assume anyone is free to comment on this. I have had the Klemperer recording for not far off 40 years and I heard Ludwig sing DLVDE under Karajan. To me, she sounded detached, but I don't know whether Bernstein made any detectable difference to the outcome. As far as I was concerned, the approach suited the stoic approach of Klemperer and I found the whole Karajan experience a disappointment as nothing in the performance really involved me, it sounded wonderful, but did not have the undertow that Klemperer had and that at that point had been my main point of reference.


Interesting.  I will have to seek out Ludwig's DLVDE recordings (I have only heard a live version of hers with Karajan from Salzburg, 1972).  I was just surprised that she was so matter of fact about Bernstein being the conductor who helped her understand Mahler after others had failed.  I would never challenge a performer's personal feelings about their own work but do her comments suggest that she came to understand Bernstein's Mahler rather than Mahler's music itself?

She sure was not crazy for his tempo here (at 2:20)  :D   --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhGB_bqHrrU

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 02, 2010, 01:03:56 AM
Quote from: BMW on June 01, 2010, 10:21:50 PM
Does anyone have a line on inexpensive (/less expensive) copies of La Grange's biography volumes?  I would like to make them a part of my summer reading but is $50+ a volume as good as it gets?

I think that's it (unless you get lucky at a used book store or something). They retailed at about $100 when they first came out if I remember correctly (more?), so you are saving money!  :o  I know, I know...

EDIT: I was referring here to the most recent volume being $100+ at release, but I see all are quite a bit more at full retail. Yowzers!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 02:07:30 AM
Quote from: BMW on June 01, 2010, 10:21:50 PM
Does anyone have a line on inexpensive (/less expensive) copies of La Grange's biography volumes?  I would like to make them a part of my summer reading but is $50+ a volume as good as it gets?

It's called a library.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Orpheus on June 02, 2010, 02:44:39 AM
What's your opinion on Fedoseyev Mahler recordings?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2010, 03:08:50 AM
Quote from: BMW on June 01, 2010, 10:21:50 PM
Does anyone have a line on inexpensive (/less expensive) copies of La Grange's biography volumes?  I would like to make them a part of my summer reading but is $50+ a volume as good as it gets?

Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=mahler+la+grange&x=21&y=18) has slashed the price of volume 4 ($54) and you can find used copies of volume 1 and 2 for around $45 each. Still expensive, I know, but I haven't seen them cheaper.

Quote from: ukrneal on June 02, 2010, 01:03:56 AM
EDIT: I was referring here to the most recent volume being $100+ at release, but I see all are quite a bit more at full retail. Yowzers!

I own the four books. They've always been expensive. I bought the first volume in 1977. It cost $17.50...which doesn't seem much now but that's approximately $60 in today's money.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on June 02, 2010, 03:33:55 AM
Anyone familiar with this one?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tzm2fg2CL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 03:43:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2010, 03:08:50 AM
Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=mahler+la+grange&x=21&y=18) has slashed the price of volume 4 ($54) and you can find used copies of volume 1 and 2 for around $45 each. Still expensive, I know, but I haven't seen them cheaper.

English speakers/readers beware: No point in getting the old volume 1 (currently covering all of what the new v.1 will be and half of what v.2 is), anyway. Start with 2, then 3, then 4. By the time you've read through them, the all-new, much expanded volume 1 will appear. Translation work on it is nearly finished.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2010, 04:53:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 03:43:06 AM
English speakers/readers beware: No point in getting the old volume 1 (currently covering all of what the new v.1 will be and half of what v.2 is), anyway. Start with 2, then 3, then 4. By the time you've read through them, the all-new, much expanded volume 1 will appear. Translation work on it is nearly finished.

Good point. I have my hundred Euro stashed away in anticipation  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 02, 2010, 05:48:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 03:43:06 AM
English speakers/readers beware: No point in getting the old volume 1 (currently covering all of what the new v.1 will be and half of what v.2 is), anyway. Start with 2, then 3, then 4. By the time you've read through them, the all-new, much expanded volume 1 will appear. Translation work on it is nearly finished.
That's good to know!


Quote from: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 02:07:30 AM
It's called a library.
I tried to get my library to order one of these a long time ago... they wouldn't, though. Right now, I live in a different county with a different library system. Maybe I should try again?...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 02, 2010, 08:11:39 AM
The library. What an excellent point.

Having grown up in a province of a provincial country (!), I've hardly had access to such a useful resource as a well-stocked public library, so I tend to forget they exist. But nowadays I've access to the library of a Russell Group university, even outside my fields of study!

So I might take my cue from BMW and do some Mahler summer reading myself. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on June 02, 2010, 10:26:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 02:07:30 AM
It's called a library.
Quote from: Renfield on June 02, 2010, 08:11:39 AM
The library. What an excellent point.

A library, of course!  I have been working at one of those on my school's campus to help pay for my education there (and for four years before that at one near my home)! 
Unfortunately neither the school's library nor the public libraries near my home have these books.

Thanks for the information about the pricing and the bit about the revised first volume --- I will be keeping my eyes open for a bargain and considering whether or not reading these out of order will drive me too crazy.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 02, 2010, 10:51:18 AM
What about inter-library loan? I mean, which library isn't connected in some greater system anymore, these days? Or which town doesn't have a university/college library that isn't?


Quote from: BMW on June 02, 2010, 10:26:22 AM
A library, of course!  I have been working at one of those on my school's campus to help pay for my education there (and for four years before that at one near my home)! 
Unfortunately neither the school's library nor the public libraries near my home have these books.

Thanks for the information about the pricing and the bit about the revised first volume --- I will be keeping my eyes open for a bargain and considering whether or not reading these out of order will drive me too crazy.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 04, 2010, 12:04:31 PM
Has anyone heard Ozawa's Mahler?

I know there is a complete set, and it's very rare, but I bet someone has it. It just seems like he would be able to do a good job with Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2010, 12:25:23 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 04, 2010, 12:04:31 PM
Has anyone heard Ozawa's Mahler?

I know there is a complete set, and it's very rare...

Rare and expensive. I don't own even a single recording of Ozawa's Mahler. I'm not sure why except I don't recall a joyous critical reception in the pre-internet days. Either that or nothing in the reviews made me think it was special enough to spend money on. I'm slightly more interested today (now that I've got more expendable income and more time to indulge this Mahler addiction). Hurwitz thinks it's a very good cycle, surpassing Haitink, Abbado, Tennstedt and Sinopoli. Since I agree with Hurwitz on Mahler about half the time, I'll continue to reserve final judgment ;D  Ozawa did record a great Gurrelieder, which makes me think his M2, M3 and M8 might be something to hear. I hope someone here has heard the cycle. I'd be interested in their opinion.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 04, 2010, 12:35:42 PM
Ozawa's M2 can be had at £4.45 as an MP3 here :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001GTU8WO/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1275683395&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001GTU8WO/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1275683395&sr=8-4)

Got it a fair while back and i absolutely love it. Very powerful. Definitely in my top tier of M2's.

Edit : It is a live recording. I have personnally found it pretty similar in feel to Mehta's version (in my top tier too  ;D ).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2010, 12:39:52 PM
Quote from: papy on June 04, 2010, 12:35:42 PM
Ozawa's M2 can be had at £4.45 as an MP3 here :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001GTU8WO/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1275683395&sr=8-4 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001GTU8WO/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1275683395&sr=8-4)

Got it a fair while back and i absolutely love it. Very powerful. Definitely in my top tier of M2's.

While the whole cycle is still expensive, even used, I have noticed tonight, at German Amazon, that certain individual symphonies can be gotten cheaply. Saw an Eighth for 9 Euro, for example. Thanks for pointing out the M2 download.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 04, 2010, 12:49:09 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 04, 2010, 12:41:16 PM
Well, I guess Sarge started talking about Boston; Greg merely about Ozawa... so there is room for Saito Kinen, after all. :-)

I did go for Greg's general approach yes  ;D... i didn't know there was a complete set at all to be honest...  0:)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 04, 2010, 12:52:40 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 04, 2010, 12:04:31 PM
Has anyone heard Ozawa's Mahler?

I know there is a complete set, and it's very rare, but I bet someone has it. It just seems like he would be able to do a good job with Mahler.

Ozawa's 8th is the best ever.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382))

The complete cycle is available from Japan for about $150,-

Good things have been said about his Boston 2nd and 5th, I believe... but most of it was apparently lost in the generally muttering about his (allegedly) uninspiring, slightly troubled days of his tenure with the BSO.

No.1 is easily, cheaply available in the West (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000023YR8?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000023YR8), No.5 is  available singly in Europe (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0010323EC?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B0010323EC).

I like his non-Boston (that is: Saito Kinen) 2nd and 9th.  Haven't heard his new M1 with that orchestra yet.

(http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SXS2dc1tL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quote from: papy on June 04, 2010, 12:35:42 PM
Ozawa's M2 can be had at £4.45 as an MP3 here :
Got it a fair while back and i absolutely love it. Very powerful. Definitely in my top tier of M2's.

It's a good 2nd.... makes my cut of top M2 recordings, too: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1103 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1103)
But we're talking Boston here... and this is Saito Kinen. Edit: Well, I guess Sarge started talking about Boston; Greg merely about Ozawa... so there is room for Saito Kinen, after all. :-)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2010, 01:00:06 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 04, 2010, 12:52:40 PM
Ozawa's 8th is the best ever.

I knew there was one critic who really, really liked Ozawa's Eighth. Should have guessed it was you--but guessing at my age is damned dangerous. Better to keep quiet and not expose mental decline  ;D

Mrs. Rock nixed buying the cheap, used copy I found because the seller lists it as just "Akzeptabel." She's probably right. No sense buying a product with visible defects. In these years of Mahler celebrations I'd think, hope, that both Levine and Ozawa's cycles would be re-issued in Europe. Not holding my breath though  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 04, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2010, 01:00:06 PM
I knew there was one critic who really, really liked Ozawa's Eighth. Should have guessed it was you--but guessing at my age is damned dangerous. Better to keep quiet and not expose mental decline  ;D

Mrs. Rock nixed buying the cheap, used copy I found because the seller lists it as just "Akzeptabel." She's probably right. No sense buying a product with visible defects. In these years of Mahler celebrations I'd think, hope, that both Levine and Ozawa's cycles would be re-issued in Europe. Not holding my breath though 

I used to import single-disc copies on the cheap Japanese re-issue on Philips... but they're out of print now, too.  :(
Arkiv's re-print is a little too expensive, because they're basing it on the two-CD set.


The Levine 'cycle' on RCA isn't complete, though... is it??
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2010, 01:23:33 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 04, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
The Levine 'cycle' on RCA isn't complete, though... is it??

:o   Hmmmm...I know there is a complete 10th...and 1, 3 , 4 , 5, 6, 7 and 9. Are 2 and 8 missing? I've always assumed he completed the cycle twenty years ago.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 04, 2010, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: papy on June 04, 2010, 12:49:09 PM
I did go for Greg's general approach yes  ;D... i didn't know there was a complete set at all to be honest...  0:)
What's funny is that I didn't know, either. I just had the thought, "hmm... I wonder who else would probably make a fine Mahler conductor?" Then, "Ozawa would probably be a good one!"
Then I just looked it up.  ;D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 04, 2010, 05:42:34 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2010, 01:23:33 PM
:o   Hmmmm...I know there is a complete 10th...and 1, 3 , 4 , 5, 6, 7 and 9. Are 2 and 8 missing? I've always assumed he completed the cycle twenty years ago.

Sarge

I've got the 2004 re-issue of Levine's Fourth.  The liner notes explicitly state he recorded all the "numbered symphonies" except for 2 and 8.  (I guess that also means he didn't record DLvdE or any of the song cycles).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 04, 2010, 06:39:30 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2010, 01:23:33 PM
:o   Hmmmm...I know there is a complete 10th...and 1, 3 , 4 , 5, 6, 7 and 9. Are 2 and 8 missing? I've always assumed he completed the cycle twenty years ago.

Sarge
I felt like I was having a deja vu... weren't we just talking about this?
Oh, wait... that was Kondrashin. He didn't record 2 or 8, either but recorded the rest (though i guess no 10, so it's not completely the same).


So, I found Ozawa conducting the last movement of the 2nd on youtube. Overall, I think it's pretty good. But- with a better orchestra and better sound quality, I really wonder how great it could be.

I still haven't heard a recording of the 2nd that I like better than my first one, Jansons. There's also a live Boulez recording which I thought was possibly as great, but it's been awhile since I've listened to it, so I'm not sure. I just remember thinking that Boulez sounded perfect, but needed a tad bit more of human warmth, and that's what Jansons provides.

I see that Mehta is one of the most popular recordings. Who does he sound like?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 04, 2010, 08:01:38 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 04, 2010, 06:39:30 PM
I felt like I was having a deja vu... weren't we just talking about this?
Oh, wait... that was Kondrashin. He didn't record 2 or 8, either but recorded the rest (though i guess no 10, so it's not completely the same).


So, I found Ozawa conducting the last movement of the 2nd on youtube. Overall, I think it's pretty good. But- with a better orchestra and better sound quality, I really wonder how great it could be.

I still haven't heard a recording of the 2nd that I like better than my first one, Jansons. There's also a live Boulez recording which I thought was possibly as great, but it's been awhile since I've listened to it, so I'm not sure. I just remember thinking that Boulez sounded perfect, but needed a tad bit more of human warmth, and that's what Jansons provides.

I see that Mehta is one of the most popular recordings. Who does he sound like?

Mehta has made, I think, three recordings of the 2nd: I have the best known one, with the VPO, and the one he made with the Israel Philharmonic; I prefer the latter one: better sonics according to my ears, the chorus is managed better, etc.

Overall, my favorite recording of the 2nd is Bernstein's second, with the NYPO on DG; coming in second is Tilson Thomas/SFO.    But, quite frankly, this symphony is one of my favorites, and I always get caught up in the music before its over, so I can't say I've heard a performance that I don't like.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 04, 2010, 08:14:44 PM
I may have to try that Bernstein/NYPO again one day. I've listened twice, but I just didn't like it at all. I just remember not liking the tempo being so slow at the ending, people saying, "that what makes it so powerful," me saying, "listening to it feels like wearing underwear that has had the elastic stretched out enough to make them unwearable," etc.

But I do remember liking the moments at the end of the first movement- fast and powerful, how it should be, and the second movement starting off so slowly, as if acknowledging it has to bring itself back up after what just happened.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 05, 2010, 01:47:21 AM
Quote from: Greg on June 04, 2010, 08:14:44 PM
I may have to try that Bernstein/NYPO again one day. I've listened twice, but I just didn't like it at all. I just remember not liking the tempo being so slow at the ending, people saying, "that what makes it so powerful," me saying, "listening to it feels like wearing underwear that has had the elastic stretched out enough to make them unwearable," etc.

Ha! It's hard to say what my favourite Mahler 2nd is; but though I do admire Bernstein/NYPO DG a lot, and possibly Bernstein/NYPO Sony even more, I feel the recent live Tennstedt/LPO is a cut above, for the 'kitchen sink', emotional-onslaught approach to the work.


For other styles of M2, two modern ones that come to mind first and foremost are Gielen's, and Ivan Fischer's. Gielen is sparse, but extremely effective, and (to me) affecting, without ever over-stretching, expressively or orchestrally. Fischer is not dissimilarly poised, and he has the advantage of a tremendous recording, and an excellent choir. But he does indulge somewhat in terms of atmosphere - to great effect!

(As does Rattle, for the atmosphere bit, only his finale doesn't have nearly as much impact; and the recording is nowhere near as sharp.)


Of course, there's Klemperer, whose reading is one of those 'great edifices' of the age of recorded music, managing to power through the symphony without losing a single ounce of its cumulative impact; but there have been more human(e)ly affecting readings.

And I also remember hearing a live Walter on Music & Arts that, although noticeably rougher around the edges than his studio recording, has the most extraordinary rendition of the finale, matched only by the live Tennstedt in my book.

But I understand you're not interested in historical versions.


About Mehta/VPO: it's not bad, but I've heard better. I think that sums it up. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 03:49:54 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 04, 2010, 05:42:34 PM
I've got the 2004 re-issue of Levine's Fourth.  The liner notes explicitly state he recorded all the "numbered symphonies" except for 2 and 8.  (I guess that also means he didn't record DLvdE or any of the song cycles).

There is a Levine DLVDE but it's on DG, not RCA, with the Berlin Phil, Jessye Norman and Siegfried Jersusalem. Thanks for confirmation about the incompleteness of the cycle. I can stop waiting for a reissue ;D That frees me up to track down copies of the symphonies I'm missing (4, 6, 7 and 9)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on June 05, 2010, 04:14:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 03:49:54 AM
There is a Levine DLVDE but it's on DG, not RCA, with the Berlin Phil, Jessye Norman and Siegfried Jersusalem. Thanks for confirmation about the incompleteness of the cycle. I can stop waiting for a reissue ;D That frees me up to track down copies of the symphonies I'm missing (4, 6, 7 and 9)
I did a search on some Amazons .... without price restrictions. ;)

Here's # 4:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-4-Gustav/dp/B0001TSWKU
http://www.amazon.de/Class-Lib-Symphony-James-Levine/dp/B0001TSWKU/

Used copies of # 6:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-6/dp/B00000E67Z/
http://www.amazon.de/Levine-Conducts-Mahlers-Symphony-No/dp/B00000E67Z/

New and used copies of # 7:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-Song-Night/dp/B00000E68I/
http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Symphony-Song-Night-US/dp/B00000E68I/

Used copies of # 9:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-9-Gustav/dp/B00000E682/
http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-US-Levine-Phs/dp/B00000E682/

Live performance of the Ninth:
http://www.amazon.de/Sinfonie-9-Levine/dp/B0002JZ2ZC/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 05:24:57 AM
Quote from: Greg on June 04, 2010, 08:14:44 PM
I may have to try that Bernstein/NYPO again one day. I've listened twice, but I just didn't like it at all. I just remember not liking the tempo being so slow at the ending, people saying, "that what makes it so powerful," me saying, "listening to it feels like wearing underwear that has had the elastic stretched out enough to make them unwearable," etc.

;D :D ;D

Quote from: Greg on June 04, 2010, 08:14:44 PM
But I do remember liking the moments at the end of the first movement- fast and powerful, how it should be, and the second movement starting off so slowly, as if acknowledging it has to bring itself back up after what just happened.

The slow final chorus is what I dislike too about the DG Bernstein. The lack of forward momentum spoils what should be a feeling of spiritual uplift. Until that point though I'm with him all the way. If not for the end, it would be my favorite version. The power of his first movement is devastating, the end of the development like a nuclear explosion that few other conductors equal. I just wish the col legno effect a few bars earlier could be heard clearly like in Maazel, Levi and Kaplan's recordings (unfortunately most conductors, and their recording engineers, fail miserably here).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 05:29:47 AM
Quote from: Marc on June 05, 2010, 04:14:47 AM

Thanks for the research, Marc. I think I'll go for this Ninth: seems reasonable  ;D

http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B00000E682/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 05, 2010, 06:02:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 05:24:57 AM
I just wish the col legno effect a few bars earlier could be heard clearly like in Maazel, Levi and Kaplan's recordings (unfortunately most conductors, and their recording engineers, fail miserably here).

Sarge

What do you think about his 2nd?

I'm intending to write overall comments on his cycle once I've heard the lot (up to the 6th right now), but I felt particularly strongly about his 2nd: specifically, that the orchestral part is among the best, and then he BLOWS it - caps! - as soon as the choir enters in the last movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 07:44:57 AM
Quote from: Renfield on June 05, 2010, 06:02:07 AM
What do you think about his 2nd?

I'm intending to write overall comments on his cycle once I've heard the lot (up to the 6th right now), but I felt particularly strongly about his 2nd: specifically, that the orchestral part is among the best, and then he BLOWS it - caps! - as soon as the choir enters in the last movement.

One of my favorites. His first movement, while far more "controlled" is almost as powerful as Bernstein's. Of course, I'm never unaware that Maazel's in charge here, imposing his very strong will on the musicians and the music. But that's one reason I like it 8)

The last time I listened my major complaint was the sound of the closing pages: not nearly as imposing as some recordings but his actual interpretation at this point I thought quite good. But I'll listen again and try to discover what it is that bothers you.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 05, 2010, 08:45:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 07:44:57 AM
One of my favorites. His first movement, while far more "controlled" is almost as powerful as Bernstein's. Of course, I'm never unaware that Maazel's in charge here, imposing his very strong will on the musicians and the music. But that's one reason I like it 8)

The last time I listened my major complaint was the sound of the closing pages: not nearly as imposing as some recordings but his actual interpretation at this point I thought quite good. But I'll listen again and try to discover what it is that bothers you.

Sarge

It could well be related to the sound, but on the whole I found the choral part of his finale the most unconvincing I've ever heard.

I will, though, make a proper write-up after I've gone through the others, possibly following (yet) another spin of that Tennstedt, too. :)


Edit: I mean literally unconvincing, not musically inconsistent, or equivalent. I was so bored I went to the bathroom for a moment, and coming out I caught, or was caught by, 'Bereite dich zu leben!', and momentarily thought I had found myself in a Nuremberg rally.

And when I react like this to my most favourite passage in the whole symphony, something is very wrong.

I will, however, listen to the 8th to cross-reference my assumptions about what that something is before commenting further.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 05, 2010, 03:36:20 PM
Quote from: Renfield on June 05, 2010, 01:47:21 AM
Ha! It's hard to say what my favourite Mahler 2nd is; but though I do admire Bernstein/NYPO DG a lot, and possibly Bernstein/NYPO Sony even more, I feel the recent live Tennstedt/LPO is a cut above, for the 'kitchen sink', emotional-onslaught approach to the work.


For other styles of M2, two modern ones that come to mind first and foremost are Gielen's, and Ivan Fischer's. Gielen is sparse, but extremely effective, and (to me) affecting, without ever over-stretching, expressively or orchestrally. Fischer is not dissimilarly poised, and he has the advantage of a tremendous recording, and an excellent choir. But he does indulge somewhat in terms of atmosphere - to great effect!

(As does Rattle, for the atmosphere bit, only his finale doesn't have nearly as much impact; and the recording is nowhere near as sharp.)


Of course, there's Klemperer, whose reading is one of those 'great edifices' of the age of recorded music, managing to power through the symphony without losing a single ounce of its cumulative impact; but there have been more human(e)ly affecting readings.

And I also remember hearing a live Walter on Music & Arts that, although noticeably rougher around the edges than his studio recording, has the most extraordinary rendition of the finale, matched only by the live Tennstedt in my book.

But I understand you're not interested in historical versions.


About Mehta/VPO: it's not bad, but I've heard better. I think that sums it up. ;D
I remember Klemperer being a pretty decent one. I have that one (on LP), Jansons, Boulez live, Bernstein/NYPO/Sony, Tennstedt, Chailly, Bertini, Kubelik, Gielen, and Kaplan/London.

Most of them I've only heard once, but as I said, Jansons is still my favorite. Perfect tempos, perfect atmosphere that I've never heard equalled in that offstage orchestra part, excellent clarity, powerful drumroll section in the first movement, etc. Other conductors may be able to execute certain parts, but I think Jansons did the the work as a whole better than any I've heard.

(though keep in mind if I ever listened to one of those other 9 recordings again, it's possible my opinion could change)  :D


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 05:24:57 AM
;D :D ;D

The slow final chorus is what I dislike too about the DG Bernstein. The lack of forward momentum spoils what should be a feeling of spiritual uplift. Until that point though I'm with him all the way. If not for the end, it would be my favorite version. The power of his first movement is devastating, the end of the development like a nuclear explosion that few other conductors equal. I just wish the col legno effect a few bars earlier could be heard clearly like in Maazel, Levi and Kaplan's recordings (unfortunately most conductors, and their recording engineers, fail miserably here).

Sarge
I could possibly be with you on that one... when I do revisit it, I'll get back to ya on that.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 05, 2010, 03:47:37 PM
You know, is there really such thing as a first recording bias? I just realized that all of my first Mahler recordings were ones that I still think are pretty good.
Anyone ever have a first recording, start liking the symphony, and then 10 recordings later, start thinking that the first recording they owned was awful?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 05, 2010, 04:00:41 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 05, 2010, 03:47:37 PM
You know, is there really such thing as a first recording bias? I just realized that all of my first Mahler recordings were ones that I still think are pretty good.
Anyone ever have a first recording, start liking the symphony, and then 10 recordings later, start thinking that the first recording they owned was awful?

It would make sense for there to be one.

After all, unless you've studied the score, you compare the second one you hear to your only prior exposure, the first one, and then likely appraise subsequent ones in its context as well, meaning you might find them lacking by virtue of simply not being it!

The closest I've myself come to rejecting a first recording when hearing others is Walter's Mahler 1st, which made a good enough impression on me to want to hear more, but when I heard Kubelik's, it blew me away on a totally different level.


Come to think of it, I haven't revisited that Walter since back then, so I may yet find in it things that are special, and unique it.

(In general, I haven't heard a Walter performance I didn't like, or didn't feel had something to add to my understanding of Mahler.)


And BTW, I'll gently insist that you probably should hear the Fischer, if you want atmosphere. It's really, really worth hearing. Also, the live Tennstedt and the studio Tennstedt are miles apart (and I say that being quite fond of the studio Tennstedt).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 05, 2010, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 05, 2010, 03:47:37 PM
You know, is there really such thing as a first recording bias?


You bet there is: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875)

First Impressions and Shostakovich

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 05, 2010, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 05, 2010, 04:13:35 PM

You bet there is: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1875)

First Impressions and Shostakovich

Lol, I've actually already read this article.  :D



Quote from: Renfield on June 05, 2010, 04:00:41 PM
It would make sense for there to be one.

After all, unless you've studied the score, you compare the second one you hear to your only prior exposure, the first one, and then likely appraise subsequent ones in its context as well, meaning you might find them lacking by virtue of simply not being it!

The closest I've myself come to rejecting a first recording when hearing others is Walter's Mahler 1st, which made a good enough impression on me to want to hear more, but when I heard Kubelik's, it blew me away on a totally different level.


Come to think of it, I haven't revisited that Walter since back then, so I may yet find in it things that are special, and unique it.

(In general, I haven't heard a Walter performance I didn't like, or didn't feel had something to add to my understanding of Mahler.)


And BTW, I'll gently insist that you probably should hear the Fischer, if you want atmosphere. It's really, really worth hearing. Also, the live Tennstedt and the studio Tennstedt are miles apart (and I say that being quite fond of the studio Tennstedt).
That's good to hear about the live Tennstedt. He has a way of bringing out certain things that can make his interpretations stand out, which I like.

Is the Fischer this one? I might listen tomorrow if it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEE5JbwCpXw&feature=related
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 05, 2010, 05:03:48 PM
Quote from: Greg on June 05, 2010, 04:59:32 PM
Is the Fischer this one? I might listen tomorrow if it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEE5JbwCpXw&feature=related

Yep.

Edit: But seemingly just the 1st movement. :(

Edit 2: A further small sample here - http://www.channelclassics.com/mahler-symphony-no-2.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 05, 2010, 05:18:02 PM
Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 06, 2010, 09:30:08 AM
Okay, so yesterday I relistened to the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony 2nd. I'm pretty close to agreeing completely with Sarge on this now.
I guess my opinion was shaped just by the last movement alone- which I just didn't care for. However, all of the others I found great. The sound isn't good, though.  :-\

Listened to the links of the Fischer, and the sound there is excellent. Great atmosphere, but I just don't feel the fire.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 06, 2010, 09:33:40 AM
Thread police: I can see that anyone who wants to discuss any movement, performance or symphony will have to own at least 20 versions of whatever they want to discuss.

Those of us with a mere five versions of any item will have to migrate to a new, 'Mahler Seemingly-Almost-Indifferent' thread. :o :o

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on June 06, 2010, 09:35:07 AM
But if we made another Mahler thread, wouldn't the universe collapse from the weight of all of those Mahler threads?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 06, 2010, 09:37:06 AM
No.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on June 06, 2010, 09:40:23 AM
Quote from: knight on June 06, 2010, 09:33:40 AM
Thread police: I can see that anyone who wants to discuss any movement, performance or symphony will have to own at least 20 versions of whatever they want to discuss.

Those of us with a mere five versions of any item will have to migrate to a new, 'Mahler Seemingly-Almost-Indifferent' thread. :o :o

Mike

:D

No worries, Mike: some of us are just slightly more Mahler-manic than the rest (to stay faithful to the topic).

And especially for Mahler, I just feel (and Sarge probably agrees) that the sheer breadth of viable interpretations on record justifies warrants bringing up recordings addressing multiple angles of a work, more than for any other composer's oeuvre.

But for those lucky ones that actually only want an X or a Y kind of Mahler in their collection, there's no reason to have too many versions!


So it's probably us who should move to an 'Exhaustive Mahlerians' thread, before we exhaust the other Mahlerians, too. 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 06, 2010, 09:43:13 AM
Oh no Eugene, I think you are in the right thread. It makes interesting reading to sit on the sidelines and go through it.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 08, 2010, 05:16:39 AM

Replying here to a response in the PURCHASES thread:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 08, 2010, 04:22:39 AM

QuoteListen what the cat dragged in:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417642PGH9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
G. Mahler,
Symphony No. 6
Solti / CSO
Decca
(http://http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000025OPA?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000025OPA)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41zQE19JIFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
G. Mahler,
A. Zemlinsky
Symphony No. 6 &
Six Maeterlinck Songs op.13
Chailly / RCO / Jard van Nes
Decca
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002424P?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00002424P)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/616CQ4DQRSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
G. Mahler,
Symphony No. 3 & "Bach Suite
Chailly / RCO / Lang
Decca SACD
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001RBVLY?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0001RBVLY)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519NSEN5QCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
G. Mahler,
Symphony No. 5
Sarastre / Finnish RSO
Virgin
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002W11ZE?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0002W11ZE)

[Caustic:] Yeah, thanks Sarge... like I needed more Mahler (and pay for it, to boot). But you and whoever else in the Mahler-Mania thread convinced me I needed to give Solti's 6th a fair shake [listening to it right now; first movement sounds good so far]. And I figured that while at it, I was going to plug a few Chailly gaps. Not the 8th, I really didn't like that one... but even the 3rd, which I wouldn't--didn't--take for free when it came out (because I thought it so inferior to the Boulez, so incredibly blasé...) but well... it's the Bach Suite I kind of wanted... and even a blasé performance can be glorious in great sound and well played.

Now what's missing from the Chailly that I want is the First (with the Berg op.1 souped up)... and, come to think of it: did he ever do  Lied von der Erde? ? ?

It's really curious how different everyone hears music. Even when we love the same composers, the same works, individual performances can evoke such different reactions. Chailly's 3 and 8 (and 5) are to my ears the best parts of his cycle.   

Chailly 5 is definitely a highlight of his cycle. Chailly 3 I will grant others their enjoyment for picking up on things in his interpretation that are not as high on my list of priorities in a Mahler symphony, perhaps. Still, I find it lacks grip and involvement. Chailly's 8th is so high on your list only--and I say this with all the love and respect I naturally have for a fellow Rott-head--because you don't know any better. You've gotten Nagano's 8th now (perhaps even on my advice?) and found it, if I remember correctly, a superb reading. That will have given you some idea of where a good 8th ought to go (and where Chailly's 8th, Part II, doesn't.) His "Kammersinfonie" (Schoenberg) approach is very honorable, but it falls flat in the moment that needs most support, the last 10 minutes cumulating in the Chorus Mysticus. (Try Abbado/Salzburg for that approach to be pulled off with great success.) Now if you only managed to get yourself a copy of Ozawa's 8th (given the out-of-printness I'd even send you a copy; except mine is in Virginia), then you could see why Chailly, no matter how not-bad his 8th is, can't hold a candle to a truly loving shaping of that second part.

Solti's opening of the Scherzo (thanks for placing it 2nd, btw.) could be grittier... but the end of the first mvt. is good.
This is my second time 'round that recording now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2010, 04:44:19 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 08, 2010, 05:16:39 AM
Now if you only managed to get yourself a copy of Ozawa's 8th....

A few days ago Knight PM'd with a link to some used copies. According to the UK seller's last email to me, the CD is on its way. Should be here tomorrow or Saturday. I'll wait until I've heard it, and compared it to Chailly, before responding further. I will say, though, that even if Ozawa is better, that will not lessen my admiration for Chailly. The things I love about it will not change.

Quote from: jlaurson on June 08, 2010, 05:16:39 AM
Solti's opening of the Scherzo (thanks for placing it 2nd, btw.) could be grittier... but the end of the first mvt. is good. This is my second time 'round that recording now.

That coda, and the slight agogic distortion before he launches the coda, are my favorite things about his Sixth. They define, for me, the meaning of not only the first movement, but the symphony as a whole.  I don't want the Scherzo grittier (not in the context of this performance anyway) because I hear the symphony differently than you do. You began your article on the Sixth in the WETA survey by stating:

"His symphonies are generally not of the happy, cheery kind—but at least they occasionally end on a note (or the hope) of optimism. Not so the Sixth. It's brutal, relentless, remorseless—and although it can be tamed to sound beautiful, this symphony simply seems to demand to be ridden as hard as possible; foam at the mouth, wide-eyed, driven to the brink of the abyss. If the Sixth Symphony were a politician, it would promise nothing but blood, toils, tears, and sweat."

Certainly that is one way to look at this symphony. But my preferred way to play the first three movements is with a large degree of optimism and with little angst. I see the first movement almost as a portrait of an action hero: utterly confident, striding forward at a good clip (my favorite Sixths are relatively swift: Solti, Szell, Karajan), always victorious. Critics often blast Solti and Szell Sixths for their lack of "feeling" but, hey, action heroes don't gush, they don't get overly sentimental. Solti's Alma theme doesn't have to be exaggerated because his Alma knows without any doubt how he feels about her. He doesn't have to get down on his knees (change or distort the basic tempo)...in fact, that wimpy show of affection would only turn her off. Of course he has feelings, can reminisce about an idyllic past, but emotions are expressed in a John Wayne manner: manly, and quickly over with, because he has dragons to slay  ;D

In short, Solti (and Szell) play this classically stuctured symphony like a Classical-era symphony, with emotions held in check and the darker elements balanced by optimism and light. To me that makes the tragic events of the last movement all the more devastating because we aren't expecting it. I first heard the Sixth live when Szell conducted it in 1967. I had no idea what was coming...it was traumatic. Really. With a conductor like Barbirolli, hell, you know the hero is doomed from the first couple of measures! That too is a legitimate way of looking at the symphony. I just prefer it my way. (And by prefer, I mean when it comes to the silly but fun and useful business of making "best of" or "desert island" lists or answering someone's question of, Which recording do you like the most?)

Anyway, glad to know you like that first movement coda too. It's such an adrenalin rush.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 16, 2010, 11:41:08 AM
In continuation to a link posted a while back by Navneeth, the video of Eschenbach's 9th is now available there since yesterday :

http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/#movnav (http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/#movnav)

2 / 6 / 1 / 8 / 9 so far.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Orpheus on June 29, 2010, 08:21:26 AM
Which buy?

This

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51r5j1XowhL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

or this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wIW0l9nHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 29, 2010, 08:27:12 AM
Quote from: Orpheus on June 29, 2010, 08:21:26 AM
Which buy?

This
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51r5j1XowhL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
or this?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wIW0l9nHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I can't remember (and can't check, right now) whether both have Andante-Scherzo or the gEMIni still the old ('wrong', because Barb. didn't record it in that order) Scherzo-Andante order. Never compared the sound side-by-side, but didn't notice any particular improvement from the gEMIni to the GRoC. (Whereas I did notice a better quality in the GRoC from the Rouge et Noir (which is definitely S-A).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 09:54:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 29, 2010, 08:27:12 AM
I can't remember (and can't check, right now) whether both have Andante-Scherzo or the gEMIni still the old ('wrong', because Barb. didn't record it in that order) Scherzo-Andante order. Never compared the sound side-by-side, but didn't notice any particular improvement from the gEMIni to the GRoC. (Whereas I did notice a better quality in the GRoC from the Rouge et Noir (which is definitely S-A).

From EMI classics web site:

Gemini:
I. Allegro energico, ma non troppo (1996 Digital Remaster)   21:19
II. Andante (1996 Digital Remaster)   16:30
III. Scherzo (Wuchtig) (1996 Digital Remaster)   13:59
IV. Finale (Allegro moderato) (1996 Digital Remaster)   32:49

GROC:
Symphony No. 6 in A minor 'Tragic' (2002 Digital Remaster)
I. Allegro energico, ma non troppo   21:14
III. Andante   15:51
II. Scherzo (Wuchtig)   13:53
IV. Finale (Allegro moderato)   32:43

That's odd, they changed the numbering of the movements, but not the order on the disc.   ???  I take it the symphony was originally published with Scherzo first, then Mahler changed his mind in later editions.

The double forte version was also A-S.  I don't know about the R-N.  I think I actually have it somewhere.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 29, 2010, 10:13:06 AM
I have just taken delivery of the DG/Decca box of the complete works of Mahler. A mere 18 discs, some of them not so well packed. Just 18 discs worth of music that have generated so much.

It feels almost odd to hold in one hand the entire published output of someone so famous; and it looks such a little thing.

Mahler is the only composer whose complete works I have.

Mike

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 10:21:44 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 09:54:20 AM

That's odd, they changed the numbering of the movements, but not the order on the disc.   ???  I take it the symphony was originally published with Scherzo first, then Mahler changed his mind in later editions.

It's more complicated than that. The autograph score has the Scherzo placed second, the Andante third. When the first edition was published, that was the order. But during the Essen rehearsals Mahler changed his mind (no one knows for certain why) and penciled in his score that the movements should be reversed. Further printings of that first edition and the second edition kept that order (Andante/Scherzo). But subsequently both Mahler and Alma had conversations with Mengelbeg and Mengelberg decided Scherzo/Andante was what Mahler really wanted, and that's how he performed the symphony, writing on his score ("according to Mahler's indications, first Scherzo then Andante"). The first Critical Edition (1963) has that order. However, the latest Critical Edition reversed that decision, saying the Andante should come first  ::)

I much prefer Mahler's original intention. I think he got it right the first time. I'm hoping not many conductors follow the new Critical Edition.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2010, 10:21:44 AM
It's more complicated than that. The autograph score has the Scherzo placed second, the Andante third. When the first edition was published that's the order. But during the Essen rehearsals Mahler changed his mind (no one knows for certain why) and penciled in his score that the movements should be reversed. Further printings of that first edition and the second edition kept that order (Andante/Scherzo). But subsequently both Mahler and Alma had conversations with Mengelbeg and Mengelberg decided Scherzo/Andante was what Mahler really wanted, and that's how he performed the symphony, writing on his score ("according to Mahler's indications, first Scherzo than Andante"). The first Critical Edition (1963) has that order. However, the latest Critical Edition reversed that decision, saying the Andante should come first  ::)

I much prefer Mahler's original intention. I think he got it right the first time. I'm hoping not many conductors follow the new Critical Edition.

Sarge

Well, in a recording the point is moot.  In fact, the performing editions of Mahler symphonies used in my home often omit entire movements.  Particularly ones that include children's choirs singing "bim-bam-bim-bam."    ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 29, 2010, 10:29:12 AM
I do that with Wagner; I guess we could both have given those guys a hand in improving matters.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 10:43:00 AM
Quote from: knight on June 29, 2010, 10:29:12 AM
I do that with Wagner; I guess we could both have given those guys a hand in improving matters.

Just once, I'd like to see a conductor turn to the audience at the beginning of a performance and say "it's going to be shorter than it normally is.  We're only going to play the good parts."

One advantage of the LP, you could generally find the good parts just by looking at the grooves.  It got to the point I thought I could recognize my favorite compositions by the pattern of grooves alone.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 29, 2010, 10:43:56 AM
That was certainly a loss, upon the advent of the compact disc!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 29, 2010, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 10:43:00 AM
One advantage of the LP, you could generally find the good parts just by looking at the grooves.  It got to the point I thought I could recognize my favorite compositions by the pattern of grooves alone.

I used to "read records" that way, as a party game. It only works on orchestral music written after the Classical period, however. All the Haydn and Mozart symphonies basically look the same, for instance. Whereas the Mahler symphonies (or Strauss tone poems, or Stravinsky ballets) each "groove" in a unique way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 29, 2010, 07:06:33 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 29, 2010, 09:54:20 AM
From EMI classics web site:

Gemini:
I. Allegro energico, ma non troppo (1996 Digital Remaster)   21:19
II. Andante (1996 Digital Remaster)   16:30
III. Scherzo (Wuchtig) (1996 Digital Remaster)   13:59
IV. Finale (Allegro moderato) (1996 Digital Remaster)   32:49

GROC:
Symphony No. 6 in A minor 'Tragic' (2002 Digital Remaster)
I. Allegro energico, ma non troppo   21:14
III. Andante   15:51
II. Scherzo (Wuchtig)   13:53
IV. Finale (Allegro moderato)   32:43

That's odd, they changed the numbering of the movements, but not the order on the disc.   ???  I take it the symphony was originally published with Scherzo first, then Mahler changed his mind in later editions.

The double forte version was also A-S.  I don't know about the R-N.  I think I actually have it somewhere.

This is most odd.  I have the GROC.  I have it here on my desk as I type.  This is the full track listing

Compact Disc 1                                    48.41

Richard Strauss
1.  Metamorphosen                             27.13
Gustav Mahler
Symphony No. 6 in A Minor
2.  I. Allergro energico, ma no troppo  21.23

Compact Disc 2                                    62.44

1.  II. Andante.                                    16.02
2.  III. Scherzo: Wuchtig                     13.56
3.  IV. Finale: Allegro moderato           32.45   

The copyright date on my CD is given as 2008.  Could they have given it a third remastering in twelve years?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jwinter on June 30, 2010, 04:22:18 PM
Greetings to all, long time no post :)

I was perusing my local CD shop, and picked up a couple of used discs from Maazel's Vienna cycle for peanuts.  I've tallied them up with the ones I've already scrounged over the years, and find (surprisingly) that I now have the entire cycle except for the 2nd (one of my favorites symphonies) and the 8th (not so much, though it's growing on me).

I've checked around a little online, and most of the used copies I can find of the 2nd are rather pricey, so before I succumb to the completist urge and order one, a query or two for those familiar with Maazel's Mahler:

How would you rate Maazel's Vienna 2nd, both in comparison with the rest of his cycle, and on its own?

Has anyone heard the new New York cycle, available on MP3 from various sources?  How does it compare with the Vienna, in your view?  Another option might be to download the New York 2nd as a replacement for the Vienna -- has anyone here heard both performances?

I'm also tempted to just play Mehta's famous Vienna 2nd instead, and pretend that my eyesight is worse than it is -- hey, they both start with M... ;D

Cheers
JWinter
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 30, 2010, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: jwinter on June 30, 2010, 04:22:18 PM
Greetings to all, long time no post :)

I was perusing my local CD shop, and picked up a couple of used discs from Maazel's Vienna cycle for peanuts.  I've tallied them up with the ones I've already scrounged over the years, and find (surprisingly) that I now have the entire cycle except for the 2nd (one of my favorites symphonies) and the 8th (not so much, though it's growing on me).

I've checked around a little online, and most of the used copies I can find of the 2nd are rather pricey, so before I succumb to the completist urge and order one, a query or two for those familiar with Maazel's Mahler:

How would you rate Maazel's Vienna 2nd, both in comparison with the rest of his cycle, and on its own?

Has anyone heard the new New York cycle, available on MP3 from various sources?  How does it compare with the Vienna, in your view?  Another option might be to download the New York 2nd as a replacement for the Vienna -- has anyone here heard both performances?

I'm also tempted to just play Mehta's famous Vienna 2nd instead, and pretend that my eyesight is worse than it is -- hey, they both start with M... ;D

Cheers
JWinter

The 2nd is the only installment in the cycle that I really liked, and I think it equals any second out there.  The rest of the cycle didn't impress me much.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 05:28:22 AM
Quote from: jwinter on June 30, 2010, 04:22:18 PM
How would you rate Maazel's Vienna 2nd, both in comparison with the rest of his cycle, and on its own?

Hey, dude, good to hear from you. Has it really been six months since your last post? Like Scarpia, I think Maazel's Vienna M2 is terrific (one of my top fives) and along with the Fourth the best performances in his cycle. Whether it's worth the money being asked now for a used copy I can't say (how much are we talking about?). Unlike Scarpia I also like the First and the Seventh.

There are dissenting opinions, of course. You won't get a Maazel recommendation from Jens.  But since you already own much of the cycle you're aware of Maazel's idiosyncracies and can put up with them obviously since you're asking for more  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2010, 07:13:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 05:28:22 AM
Hey,  You won't get a Maazel recommendation from Jens.... 

Yadda, yadda, yadda... I, too, rate Maazel's Fourth among the top versions available.
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1170 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1170)
I have the 8th, too... doesn't do anything for me, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 07:28:53 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2010, 07:13:24 AM
Yadda, yadda, yadda... I, too, rate Maazel's Fourth among the top versions available.

My faith in you is now restored ;)

Quote from: jlaurson on July 01, 2010, 07:13:24 AM[/font][/size]

I have the 8th, too... doesn't do anything for me, though.

I should listen to it again. It didn't do anything for me either but I was only half listening the one time I tried it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jwinter on July 01, 2010, 07:43:48 AM
Thanks for the recommendations, guys!  Sounds like I'll need to get the Maazel Vienna 2nd at some point.

Hmm, I now notice on Amazon that the box set can be had (http://www.amazon.com/Syms-1-10-Kinde-Lorin-Maazel/dp/B00006J45S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1277998725&sr=8-2) for less than $30 -- I may go that route, and sell off some of my singles to cover it.  Less shelf space, and perhaps they've remastered it, who knows?

Has anyone heard the New York recordings?  All of the reviews I've seen complain about how intolerably slow they are, which sounds like Sarge and I might like 'em.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 07:55:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 05:28:22 AM
Hey, dude, good to hear from you. Has it really been six months since your last post? Like Scarpia, I think Maazel's Vienna M2 is terrific (one of my top fives) and along with the Fourth the best performances in his cycle. Whether it's worth the money being asked now for a used copy I can't say (how much are we talking about?). Unlike Scarpia I also like the First and the Seventh.

I also have an individual disc of the 1st, which, come to think of it, ain't bad.  But at some point I got the cycle and didn't like what remained.  The 5th particularly turned me off, the 9th as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 08:10:02 AM
Quote from: jwinter on July 01, 2010, 07:43:48 AM
Has anyone heard the New York recordings?  All of the reviews I've seen complain about how intolerably slow they are, which sounds like Sarge and I might like 'em.  :D

I probably would ;D  I haven't paid any attention to those recordings, though. Where can I find them? They don't seem to be listed at Amazon.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 01, 2010, 08:27:01 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 08:10:02 AM
I probably would ;D  I haven't paid any attention to those recordings, though. Where can I find them? They don't seem to be listed at Amazon.

Sarge

http://nyphil.org/buy/estore/maazelMahler.cfm

Quote
New York Philharmonic and Lorin Maazel: The Complete Mahler Symphonies, Live is released in celebration of Mr. Maazel's seven-year tenure as Music Director of the New York Philharmonic, 2002–2009.

Symphonies Nos. 1-10 are available for download through the links below. This set is exclusively available by digital download and will not be released on CD.

Also, look at the very last entry on this page, for Baggins Day.
http://nyphil.org/broadcast/broadcast_main.cfm
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 08:42:40 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on July 01, 2010, 08:27:01 AM
http://nyphil.org/buy/estore/maazelMahler.cfm

Wow...the Fourth's Finale is even slower than with Battle. Almost comes to a complete halt at times  :o  Love it  ;D
Unfortunately Miss Murphy's voice isn't nearly as seductive. Still, I think I will buy this one anyway. Really appreciate the link, dude.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 08:50:58 AM
My Dad is a huge Mahler fan and collector. He owns every box set (except for Michael Gielen's) and almost every recording ever released. I love Mahler (probably not as much as him), but my favorite cycles are Bertini, Chailly, Abbado, Rattle, Tennstedt, and Bernstein (his first cycle on Sony).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 01, 2010, 09:11:23 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 08:50:58 AM
My Dad is a huge Mahler fan and collector. He owns every box set (except for Michael Gielen's) and almost every recording ever released.

I could never figure out my pop. He seemed to have an occasional interest in classical music. I grew up watching The Bell Telephone Hour, The Voice of Firestone, Bernstein's Young People's Concerts because he always tuned in. And yet he didn't own any classical records and never listened to the radio. (Mom made her own classical music, at the piano.) During the 70s I took him to many Mahler concerts in Cleveland and Akron: the Fourth and Seventh conducted by Maazel; the Ninth Haitink; the Sixth Abbado; the Fifth Bamert; the Second Ormandy. He seemed to enjoy the music. Wish he would have had your dad's interest in Mahler though.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: oabmarcus on July 01, 2010, 11:11:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 08:50:58 AM
My Dad is a huge Mahler fan and collector. He owns every box set (except for Michael Gielen's) and almost every recording ever released. I love Mahler (probably not as much as him), but my favorite cycles are Bertini, Chailly, Abbado, Rattle, Tennstedt, and Bernstein (his first cycle on Sony).
there you go, the perfect father's day present. Buy him the Gielen cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: cosmicj on July 01, 2010, 11:31:41 AM
What do you guys think of the recent Abbado/Berlin Phil cycle?  In particular, I have been thinking of getting the recording of the 3rd.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 12:26:25 PM
Quote from: oabmarcus on July 01, 2010, 11:11:36 AM
there you go, the perfect father's day present. Buy him the Gielen cycle.

I would have bought it for him, but he didn't Neumann's Czech Philharmonic cycle on Supraphon at that time, so I bought it instead. Maybe for Christmas.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 12:45:20 PM
Quote from: cosmicj on July 01, 2010, 11:31:41 AM
What do you guys think of the recent Abbado/Berlin Phil cycle?  In particular, I have been thinking of getting the recording of the 3rd.

My Dad owns all of Abbado's Mahler recordings, but I haven't heard the new ones he made. From what he tells me, they are quite good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 01, 2010, 01:01:51 PM
Is your dad interested in posting here?  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 01:04:57 PM
Quote from: Greg on July 01, 2010, 01:01:51 PM
Is your dad interested in posting here?  :D

He has expressed disdain for public forums to me for years now, so I doubt he will be joining anytime soon (if ever). :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2010, 03:33:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 12:45:20 PM
My Dad owns all of Abbado's Mahler recordings, but I haven't heard the new ones he made. From what he tells me, they are quite good.

Your answer here: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1138 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1138)

Very good, in short.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on July 01, 2010, 04:05:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 12:45:20 PM
My Dad owns all of Abbado's Mahler recordings, but I haven't heard the new ones he made. From what he tells me, they are quite good.

Abbados new Mahler must be purchased in DVD (or Blu ray) format, excellent picture and sound quality.
Abbado is argueably greatest living Mahler conductor so do not hesitate to get the complete muti media Mahler experience
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 04:09:16 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 01, 2010, 04:05:44 PMAbbado is argueably greatest living Mahler conductor

Well, you'd certainly get a spirited argument from me.   :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on July 01, 2010, 04:19:55 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 04:09:16 PM
Well, you'd certainly get a spirited argument from me.   :P

Which conductor do you prefer for complete set still living?

-Rattle
-Chailly
-Wit
-Boulez
-Gielen
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2010, 04:21:34 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 01, 2010, 04:05:44 PM
Abbado is argueably greatest living Mahler conductor so do not hesitate to get the complete muti media Mahler experience
Quote from: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 04:09:16 PM
Well, you'd certainly get a spirited argument from me.   :P

I think he actually is... and yet a surprising lot of his Mahler is not good, at all.
His Berlin Sixth is pathetic, his Fourth distorted, his Ninth not memorable...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 01, 2010, 04:25:07 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 01, 2010, 04:19:55 PM

Which conductor do you prefer for complete set still living?

-Rattle
-Chailly
-Wit
-Boulez

Haitink (the original Concertgebouw set) and Chailly.  I also like the SF cycle from Tilson-Thomas (haven't listened to all of it yet).


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 01, 2010, 04:25:49 PM
Prompted by a comment by Knight in the DFD thread, and posted here for reference purposes.

These are the songs which Mahler composed in a piano version , but which do not have an orchestral version, together with the author or source of the text.   Nine of them are from Des Knaben Wunderhorn
This is based on the tracklisting from the EMI "[not actually]Complete Works" box.

Lieder--texts by Mahler
Im Lenz
Winterlied
Maitanz in Grunen

Lieder und Gesange

Vol. 1
Fruhlingsmorgen (text by Leander)
Erinnerung  (ditto)
Hans und Grete (text by Mahler--a reworking of the text of Maitanz in Grunen)
Serenade aus Don Juan (text by Braunfeld, translated from Tirso de Molina)
Phantasie aus Don Juan (ditto)

Vol 2--All texts from Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Um schlimme Kinder artig zu machen
Ich ging mit Lust durch einen grunen Wald
Aus! Aus!
Starke Einbildungskraft

Vol. 3--all texts from Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Zu Strassburg auf der Schanz'
Ablosung in Sommer
Scheiden und Meiden
Nicht wiedersehen!
Selbstgefuhl

From the Ruckert Lieder, later orchestrated by Puttmann
Liebst du um Schonheit

If there's an error here, please let me know so I can correct it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 04:29:01 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 01, 2010, 04:05:44 PMAbbado is arguably the greatest living Mahler conductor...

I don't agree with that, but he's certainly a fine conductor. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 01, 2010, 04:51:24 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 01, 2010, 04:19:55 PM

Which conductor do you prefer for complete set still living?

-Rattle
-Chailly
-Wit
-Boulez
-Gielen

Thomas

I do like Chailly's 9th, but that's the only one of his I've heard.
Same situation with Wit's 8th--like it, but that's the only one I've heard from him.
Same with Haitink's 4th--like it but that's the only one I've heard from his Concertgebouw cycle.  I've got three of the symphonies he's released on CSO Resound (1,2, 6), and like them.  Is he intending to record the rest with them?
Similar with Abbado's Berlin 7th--like it very much--and 6th--not memorable, but not heard any of the others
Haven't heard any of Gielen that I can remember. 

I have substantial parts, but not all, of the cycles from Rattle, Boulez, Thomas, as well as the not-yet-completed cycles from Zinman and Gergiev.  Each of them has good installments and bad installments; Thomas, to my ears, has more good and fewer bad ones than the others.

My ideal "living" conductor cycle would probably draw from all of them
1--Gergiev*
2--Thomas
3--Zinman or Gergiev
4-Zinman
5--Thomas
6--probably Haitink/CSO --this is the one I'm most undecided about
7--Abbado/Berlin
8--Thomas
DLvdE--Boulez
9--Chailly
10--Rattle

*may change tomorrow once I've heard the Boulez 1st, which I bought today.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2010, 02:31:29 AM
fantasy mahler living conductor cycle*


May have to be updated soon, given the age of some of the gentlemen on this list.
But most of my top choices are with living conductors, anyway (safe for Kubelik, Bernstein, Neumann, Kletzki and a few others).

No. 1 Haitink / CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001Q8UOJ2/goodmusicguide-20) & Boulez / CSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IIX2/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 2 Mehta / WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TEUZ/goodmusicguide-20), Boulez / WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EULVZ4/goodmusicguide-20) & Fischer / BFO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000GPIBOG/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 3 Abbado/ BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063TAJ/goodmusicguide-20), Boulez / WPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008GQTR/goodmusicguide-20) & MTT / SFSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008V6WI/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 4 Haitink / RCO / Schaefer  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TKODEK/goodmusicguide-20) & Inbal / Fr.RSO / Donath (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000034N6/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 5 Stenz / Guerzenich-O Cologne  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002N5KEQK/goodmusicguide-20) & Chailly / RCO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000042I7/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 6  Zander / Philharm. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006FSR9/goodmusicguide-20) & Fischer / BFO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000ACZV2K/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 7  Abbado / BPh (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063WRR/goodmusicguide-20) & Barenboim / Berlin StaKap.  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EGDMSC/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 8 Ozawa / BSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E2NV/goodmusicguide-20)

DLvdE Haitink / RCO / King, Baker (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000041EH/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 9 MTT/ SFSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007YMUFC/goodmusicguide-20)

No. 10 Barshai / JDtPhil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002IQBB2/goodmusicguide-20)



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 02, 2010, 03:13:03 AM
Having been on a Mahler 9 binge lately (the last thing I would have expected from myself) I read your extended Mahler pieces with interest. I wonder how many people would share your view that the inner movements of the 9th are "frivolous filler material", nor do most people leave the concert hall afterwards with the feeling the finale is one of "contentment" rather than "twisted guts"  -  at least that's my guess. Usually you hear people talking about "emotionally draining" when they talk about the finale, something I try to pooh-pooh (it's only music after all), but contentment? I don't think so.

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454

Don't you get the feeling, when you have to dismiss large parts of a major symphony by a mature composer as filler material, you're perhaps missing a point or two and you should possibly think harder? This is not an attack, not at all, it just puzzles me. When I'm asked to write about a book this is always my nr 1 requirement before I start to put my thoughts on paper: I need to see the whole rather than the parts.

That being said I may pursue your Neumann clue, as an companion for the old Haitink (I used to have the live Karajan but it doesn't click with me).

BTW this Mahler 9 binge started when I watched Eschenbach and l'Orchestre de Paris on Medici tv. An interpretation that is marred occasionally by monumentally slow tempi (no swing in the Landler), but is rather interesting in the way Eschenbach makes it a journey from celestial light at the start to yet again celestial light at the end. Great string section in this orchestra, and it was instructive to compare the Bernstein VPO dvd from 1972. The Vienna orchestra is great of course, perhaps the greatest, but my goodness, so many musicians exude these dour and baleful looks. They just wanna go home. This is one thing that has changed in the course of two generations of musicians: how can yo expect the audience to have a good time when you look like you're just doing a job you happen to hate?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2010, 03:28:41 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2010, 03:13:03 AM
Having been on a Mahler 9 binge lately (the last thing I would have expected from myself) I read your extended Mahler pieces with interest. I wonder how many people would share your view that the inner movements of the 9th are "frivolous filler material"

I'm not sure you're doing the piece justice; it's not as if I didn't acknowledge the very question you have about my 'neglect' of the inner movements...
QuoteWho remembers the caustic Scherzo or the contrapuntal density of the Rondo after the grand journey that the finale presents? It's like a Mahler—new yet conventional, a mini-universe of Mahler symphonies unto itself—one no longer wishes to return to after hearing promises of the finale in the first movement.

Henri-Louis de La Grange notices this and writes: "[T]hose who have written about the Ninth have generally tended to focus most of their attention on the supremely beautiful first and last movements, neglecting to ask themselves why the two central ones in rapid tempo are so replete with anger and negativity, why Mahler goes much further down this unsettling path of provocative irony than ever before."

La Grange then sets out to remedy that perceived injustice....

Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2010, 03:13:03 AMThat being said I may pursue your Neumann clue, as an companion for the old Haitink (I used to have the live Karajan but it doesn't click with me).

Ancerl (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00066FAB2/goodmusicguide-20),  you mean, for the 9th?

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 02, 2010, 04:03:27 AM
Sorry, yes, Ancerl. (There's something wrong with my brain...)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2010, 05:05:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 08:50:58 AM
My Dad is a huge Mahler fan and collector. He owns every box set (except for Michael Gielen's) and almost every recording ever released. I love Mahler (probably not as much as him), but my favorite cycles are Bertini, Chailly, Abbado, Rattle, Tennstedt, and Bernstein (his first cycle on Sony).

I own the complete Mahler cycles of:

Chailly
Sinopoli
Boulez
Maazel
Bernstein (Sony)

Bernstein (DG)
Bernstein (DVD)
Gielen
Bertini
Neumann
Tennstedt
Rattle
Svetlanov
Inbal
Kondrashin (his cycle is missing 2 and 8 )
Solti (his first recordings from the 60/70s)

I own very little Abbado or MTT. I'm not fond of either conductor's style of Mahler interpretation (I do like Abbado's Berlin Third and Chicago Seventh...but not as much as my favorites). I don't have Kubelik or Haitink complete but individual symphonies are among my favorites: Haitink 3 and 9 (Concertgebouw), 5 (Berlin Phil); Kubelik 1, 3 and DLVDE (Audite), 5 (DG).

Choosing a favorite cycle is difficult since they all have at least one, and usually more, major weaknesses; for example: Bernstein's serious miscalculation using a treble instead of a soprano in the DG Fourth; Chailly's Second; Sinopoli's Fifth; Boulez's Eighth and Sixth (yeah, I know...a favorite of many here); Gielen's Fourth; Rattle's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10  ;D

When I make a list of favorite individual recordings of the symphonies, no conductor seems to stand out. But if forced to choose favorite cycles, it would be those first five in bold (Maazel and Sinopoli very personal choices that shouldn't be taken as recommendations. I love 'em but they are both very eccentric Mahler conductors. Edit: the same thing could be said about Boulez, too, actually. So, most of my choices are as eccentric as the conductors  :D ).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: cosmicj on July 02, 2010, 05:21:05 AM
Sarge - I listened to the ii and ii mvts of Mahler VII done by Neumann & the Leipzig orchestra lst night.  Enthralling playing - powerful.  Do you know that recording?  (I probably shouldn't need to ask that last question  :))
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2010, 05:35:20 AM
Quote from: cosmicj on July 02, 2010, 05:21:05 AM
Sarge - I listened to the ii and ii mvts of Mahler VII done by Neumann & the Leipzig orchestra lst night.  Enthralling playing - powerful.  Do you know that recording?  (I probably shouldn't need to ask that last question  :))

No, I haven't heard it, but I love his Fifth with the Gewandhaus. Thanks for the recommendation. I just punched the buy button at Amazon,

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 02, 2010, 05:35:36 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2010, 03:13:03 AM
Having been on a Mahler 9 binge lately (the last thing I would have expected from myself) I read your extended Mahler pieces with interest. I wonder how many people would share your view that the inner movements of the 9th are "frivolous filler material", nor do most people leave the concert hall afterwards with the feeling the finale is one of "contentment" rather than "twisted guts"  -  at least that's my guess. Usually you hear people talking about "emotionally draining" when they talk about the finale, something I try to pooh-pooh (it's only music after all), but contentment? I don't think so.
I think I've read opinions like that before, which I have to very strongly disagree with. A statement like that is just a matter of taste. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on July 02, 2010, 05:37:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 01, 2010, 04:29:01 PM
I don't agree with that, but he's certainly a fine conductor. :D

One may not agree, but (as DarkAngel said) the point can sustain an argument ; )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 02, 2010, 05:59:15 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2010, 05:35:20 AM
No, I haven't heard it, but I love his Fifth with the Gewandhaus. Thanks for the recommendation. I just punched the buy button at Amazon,

Far, far superior to the later Czech Philharmonic recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2010, 06:04:30 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 02, 2010, 05:59:15 AM
Far, far superior to the later Czech Philharmonic recording.

Then I've chosen wisely ;)  (Nice winds in that Czech recording, though.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 02, 2010, 07:55:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2010, 06:04:30 AM
Then I've chosen wisely ;)  (Nice winds in that Czech recording, though.)

Czech always plays nicely.  Neumann seems to be asleep at the baton in many of the recordings in that late Czech cycle.  I think he was just tired.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on July 02, 2010, 08:40:52 AM
The unique point about Abbado is he offers the only (nearly) complete modern Mahler cycle (waiting for Mahler 8th) on DVD & Blu Ray by a veteran respected Mahler conductor........in great audio and video quality. Why just get another CD set, get the complete Mahler multi media experience

The Bernstein/VPO DVD set from the 1970s are great performances, but there is no comparison to the high quality audio & video given to Abbado
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2010, 08:49:51 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on July 02, 2010, 08:40:52 AM
The Bernstein/VPO DVD set from the 1970s are great performances, but there is no comparison to the high quality audio & video given to Abbado

That is a compelling reason to own Abbado's DVDs. On the other hand, it's more entertaining to watch Lenny (superb choreography ;D ) even if the sound and picture qualty isn't up to the latest standards. And really, I have no interest in watching hi-def video of Abbado. I'm too aware of his health problems even in low resolution.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on July 02, 2010, 08:58:27 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 02, 2010, 05:59:15 AM
Far, far superior to the later Czech Philharmonic recording.

Yes the Neumann performances of Mahler 5,9 with Leipzig are much more dramatic than the Czech PO complete set......recommended
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 02, 2010, 09:24:11 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2010, 08:49:51 AM
That is a compelling reason to own Abbado's DVDs. On the other hand, it's more entertaining to watch Lenny (superb choreography ;D ) even if the sound and picture qualty isn't up to the latest standards. And really, I have no interest in watching hi-def video of Abbado. I'm too aware of his health problems even in low resolution.

Sarge

Plus you get an extra helping of sideburns in the VPO set.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on July 02, 2010, 09:50:35 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2010, 09:24:11 AM
Plus you get an extra helping of sideburns in the VPO set.

One Mahler VPO DVD performance even has Bernstein sporting a full beard.......looks much better without  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 02, 2010, 12:47:37 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2010, 05:05:37 AM
Choosing a favorite cycle is difficult since they all have at least one, and usually more, major weaknesses; for example: Bernstein's serious miscalculation using a treble instead of a soprano in the DG Fourth; Chailly's Second; Sinopoli's Fifth; Boulez's Eighth and Sixth (yeah, I know...a favorite of many here); Gielen's Fourth; Rattle's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10  ;D

I'd speak up in defense of that boy soprano.   Young Helmut may not have been the best choice, but my ears think he did a better job of it than some of the females I've heard--whoever did it on Gergiev's recording is one example.  It certainly doesn't come close to ruining the performance for me.  (Anyone know what happened to him later? Or was that the summit of his artistic career?)

But I am with you about Boulez's 8th.  The parts are almost all excellent, but somehow it doesn't gel.

And I've just finished listening to what may be the dreariest Third I've ever heard, courtesy of Rattle.

Quote
. I love 'em but they are both very eccentric Mahler conductors. Edit: the same thing could be said about Boulez, too, actually. So, most of my choices are as eccentric as the conductors  :D ).

Sarge

And of course wasn't Bernstein the most eccentric of them all?

Now, if you will excuse me, it's time to listen to Tennstedt's Fifth, and I'll be finished with that EMI big box.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on July 05, 2010, 11:30:58 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2010, 09:24:11 AM
Plus you get an extra helping of sideburns in the VPO set.

The hair-to-dollar ratio is certainly vastly better.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 07, 2010, 08:05:01 AM
happy anniversary, M-boy!


(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/mahler2010_2011.png)

Mahler Today
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2139 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2139)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on July 07, 2010, 08:10:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 07, 2010, 08:05:01 AM
happy anniversary, M-boy!

M forever!

>:D

I'd totally forgotten the date. Many, many weeks ago I planned to begin listening to the cycle on this date, one symphony a day for the next nine days [Rx]. (For 2011, I'll end it with the 9th on 18th May.) I think I still have time to listen to the First before settling down to watch the semi-final.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Joe Barron on July 07, 2010, 08:12:28 AM
The score is now Mahler 150, Ringo 70. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/arts/music/06ringo.html?fta=y)

Peace and love, everyone.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 07, 2010, 08:44:44 AM
As it happens I am listening to the extraordinary Haitink RCO (1969) recording of the Ninth now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Joe Barron on July 07, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2010, 08:44:44 AM
As it happens I am listening to the extraordinary Haitink RCO (1969) recording of the Ninth now.

Is that your favorite? My whole life is a quest for the definitive recording of that symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 07, 2010, 04:17:06 PM
Quote from: Joe Barron on July 07, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
Is that your favorite? My whole life is a quest for the definitive recording of that symphony.

It's very good.  The analog Karajan is probably my favorite. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 07, 2010, 05:21:34 PM
Courtesy of Ionarts.

http://www.mahler150.com/en_GB/home
I notice Jens has already posted his dream cycle there. 
To hear the downloads, it is necessary to register.

The site lists a bunch of OOP recordings as being currently available for purchase, but I didn't see a link to actually purchase them.  One of them is Jens' favorite 8th, the Ozawa.

Mach Spass!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 12:56:22 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on July 07, 2010, 05:21:34 PM
Courtesy of Ionarts.

The site lists a bunch of OOP recordings as being currently available for purchase, but I didn't see a link to actually purchase them.  One of them is Jens' favorite 8th, the Ozawa.



Anybody to vote for their dream cycle on the DG site:


Listen to the "Alles Vergaengliche" of Ozawa's 8th (or don't listen to it and just take my word for it) and vote his Boston recording into the Dream Cycle to see it re-issued, at last!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 08, 2010, 01:01:36 AM
I must say I found the sites intent somewhat confusing.

Will the dream cycle (when voting is finished) actually be released on CD?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 05:14:05 AM
Quote from: erato on July 08, 2010, 01:01:36 AM
I must say I found the sites intent somewhat confusing.

Will the dream cycle (when voting is finished) actually be released on CD?

On the website it says: Mahler – The People's Edition CD box-set. This CD box-set will be released in November 2010.

I'm afraid this will end up being just another box with the versions that have been popular for decades (wanna bet Kubelik's First and Solti's Eighth will be in it?). I'd rather see a box filled with versions that are currently OOP.

So, should I vote for my favorites or vote hoping I'll influence reissues? Decisions, decisions....

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 05:52:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 05:14:05 AM
On the website it says: Mahler – The People's Edition CD box-set. This CD box-set will be released in November 2010.

I'm afraid this will end up being just another box with the versions that have been popular for decades (wanna bet Kubelik's First and Solti's Eighth will be in it?). I'd rather see a box filled with versions that are currently OOP.

So, should I vote for my favorites or vote hoping I'll influence reissues? Decisions, decisions....

Sarge

I will use ionarts, possibly WETA, as a platform to influence the decision along your lines, if you do the GMG grunt-work.

Let's first agree what we want on the "People's Mahler" set...
I don't think it needs to be an all-OOP box... that would be difficult to manipulate... but I think we can agree that there should be no performance doubling the DG complete set. That it should include interesting performances over easiest common denominator performances, if the latter are easily available. What else?

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Solti. CSO ???
7. Abbado. BPh ???
8. Ozawa. BSO !!! (I insist)
9.
10. Chailly, RIAS (for lack of complete alternatives?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 06:22:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 05:52:06 AM
I will use ionarts, possibly WETA, as a platform to influence the decision along your lines, if you do the GMG grunt-work.

Let's first agree what we want on the "People's Mahler" set...
I don't think it needs to be an all-OOP box... that would be difficult to manipulate... but I think we can agree that there should be no performance doubling the DG complete set. That it should include interesting performances over easiest common denominator performances, if the latter are easily available. What else?

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Solti. CSO ???
7. Abbado. BPh ???
8. Ozawa. BSO !!! (I insist)
9.
10. Chailly, RIAS (for lack of complete alternatives?)

I don't have a problem voting for Ozawa's Eighth. I liked your inclusion of Dohnányi Fourth. His Fifth is terrific too. It may not trump Kubelik but it's certainly worthy...a steely "modern" Fifth with some surprising emotional excess in the second movement. (His Bruckner/Mahler with Cleveland should definitely be back in print.) I appreciate your giving me Solti in the Sixth--a fair trade for the Ozawa Eighth?  ;)

I think I'll go for Ozawa in the Second too (never heard it but want to). Or Klemperer's Concertgebouw performance.

The 10th...yeah, Chailly because it's one of the few listed that are actually complete...or Harding/WP. I don't have either so I could go either way. Since you've already picked Chailly, I'll do the same.

One, three and Seven are problematic. Most of the ones listed are readily available. The ones that aren't I have no compelling urge to hear. Edit: just noticed Scherchen's Seventh on the list. Doesn't seem to be in print now. How about Scherchen then? I could vote party-line Ozawa but I don't want people forever thinking I'm a fanboy  :D )

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on July 08, 2010, 06:50:14 AM
If there should be any Scherchen on this, it should be the 7th, in my opinion. OK, he does a much darker Seventh than practically anyone, but for me, he makes it work. (And the studio 7th is the only Scherchen 7th I've *not* heard!)

PS: How about the 1954 Kubelik with the Vienna Philharmonic for the 1st? I'd like to hear this!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 06:57:10 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 06:22:51 AM
I don't have a problem voting for Ozawa's Eighth. I liked your inclusion of Dohnányi Fourth. His Fifth is terrific too. It may not trump Kubelik but it's certainly worthy...a steely "modern" Fifth with some surprising emotional excess in the second movement. (His Bruckner/Mahler with Cleveland should definitely be back in print.) I appreciate your giving me Solti in the Sixth--a fair trade for the Ozawa Eighth?  ;)

Ozawa's 8th needs no horse-trading.  $:) ;)

QuoteI think I'll go for Ozawa in the Second too (never heard it but want to).

It's certainly a symphony that his Saito Kinen recording suggests he's good at.

QuoteThe 10th...yeah, Chailly because it's one of the few listed that are actually complete...or Harding/WP. I don't have either so I could go either way. Since you've already picked Chailly, I'll do the same.

Harding ain't that hot. Chailly it is.

QuoteOne, three and Seven are problematic. Most of the ones listed are readily available. The ones that aren't I have no compelling urge to hear. Edit: just noticed Scherchen's Seventh on the list. Doesn't seem to be in print now. How about Scherchen then? I could vote party-line Ozawa but I don't want people forever thinking I'm a fanboy  :D )

Heaven forbid people think you're an Ozawa fanboy.
Can we vote for the Scherchen without knowing its relative merits? I think Abbado's 7th has such great inner movements that I might go for that, even if it *is* available.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 08, 2010, 07:22:51 AM
Give me your list dammit! I'll vote for whatever you experts tell me to!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 07:35:17 AM
Quote from: erato on July 08, 2010, 07:22:51 AM
Give me your list dammit! I'll vote for whatever you experts tell me to!

1. How about the early Vienna Kubelik?? Or Dohnanyi again?
2. Ozawa. BSO -- or else: how about Blomstedt / SFS. I wonder if I have that, unlistened to.
3. Kubelik again? Or my mainstream Abbado choice?  The two Haitinks' listed are not actually different performances, are they?
4. Dohnányi, ClevO
5. Kubelik is VERY good and not easily available these days. I propose his recording.
6. Solti. CSO
7. Abbado, BPh?
8. Ozawa. BSO
9. Giulini? Anyone know the Haitink / European Orchestra version? Sinopoli is very good...
10. Chailly, RIAS

Where are the Haitink Christmas recordings?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 08:24:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 06:57:10 AM
Ozawa's 8th needs no horse-trading.  $:) ;)

Okay, okay...when my two favorite, but very different critics, the Hurwitzer and the Jenerator, agree on a recording, it must be the one.

QuoteCan we vote for the Scherchen without knowing its relative merits? I think Abbado's 7th has such great inner movements that I might go for that, even if it *is* available.

Good question. Scherchen is one of those eccentric conductors that I usually have to hear. For that reason alone I'm tempted to vote for him. That Edward characterizes it as "dark" seals the deal. I haven't heard your Abbado but are there compelling reasons to prefer it to the Chicago performance; any reason one needs both in their collection? I'm not saying it isn't a great version but I would guess many Mahlerites already have an Abbado Seventh.

Yeah, Kubelik in Vienna with the First could be quite interesting--I agree with Edward and you. And Giulini's Ninth would be a good choice for me. I have the LPs but never bought the CDs.

My proposed vote looks like this then:

1. How about the early Vienna Kubelik?? Or Dohnanyi again?
2. Ozawa. BSO -- or else: how about Blomstedt / SFS. I wonder if I have that, unlistened to.
3. Kubelik again? Or my mainstream Abbado choice?  The two Haitinks' listed are not actually different performances, are they?
4. Dohnányi, ClevO
5. Kubelik is VERY good and not easily available these days. I propose his recording.
6. Solti. CSO
7. Abbado, BPh? Scherchen
8. Ozawa. BSO
9. Giulini Anyone know the Haitink / European Orchestra version? Sinopoli is very good
10. Chailly, RIAS

Still can't decide about a Third. Haitink has been one of my favorites but it's available too. Well, I'll think about it during dinner.

QuoteWhere are the Haitink Christmas recordings?

Weren't they produced by the orchestra? If not, and if Universal owns them, that would change things. Many of those performances I'd love to hear.


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 08:45:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 08:24:51 AM
I haven't heard your Abbado but are there compelling reasons to prefer it to the Chicago performance; any reason one needs both in their collection? I'm not saying it isn't a great version but I would guess many Mahlerites already have an Abbado Seventh.

Yes. The Nachtmusik in the Berlin recording is out of this world. (As it should be, as none others are, however.)
The Chicago recording isn't anywhere near that in character (it has its merits, but it's not in my top 5 or maybe even top 10)... you don't need both; you need the Berlin recording which is my top dog for the sole reason of that unbelievable  Nachtmusik.


QuoteMy proposed vote looks like this then:

1. How about the early Vienna Kubelik?? Or Dohnanyi again?
2. Ozawa. BSO -- or else: how about Blomstedt / SFS. I wonder if I have that, unlistened to.
3. Kubelik again? Or my mainstream Abbado choice?  The two Haitinks' listed are not actually different performances, are they?
4. Dohnányi, ClevO
5. Kubelik is VERY good and not easily available these days. I propose his recording.
6. Solti. CSO
7. Abbado, BPh? Scherchen
8. Ozawa. BSO
9. Giulini Anyone know the Haitink / European Orchestra version? Sinopoli is very good
10. Chailly, RIAS

1. Kubelik, VPO
2. Ozawa. BSO
3. ..............................
4. Dohnányi, ClevO
5. Kubelik
6. Solti. CSO
7. Scherchen
8. Ozawa. BSO
9. Giulini
10. Chailly, RIAS

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 08:24:51 AMWeren't they produced by the orchestra? If not, and if Universal owns them, that would change things. Many of those performances I'd love to hear.

There were issued by Philips, i.e. Universal. But I don't know the rights situation. There are some lovely bits on the set, but nothing I think is particularly 'necessary' or outstanding.


Interesting that the Mengelberg 4th and Neumann / Leipzig 5th are part of their OOP collection that you can listen to... but not among the options you can have included in the People's cycle. (Presumably because they traded away their [US] copyright to other firms for the time being.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 08, 2010, 10:25:13 AM
Is it safe to vote now?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 10:28:39 AM
Quote from: erato on July 08, 2010, 10:25:13 AM
Is it safe to vote now?

since you can still change your vote at a later time -- when your Mahler overlords command you accordingly -- YES, it is safe.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 08, 2010, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 10:28:39 AM
since you can still change your vote at a later time -- when your Mahler overlords command you accordingly -- YES, it is safe.  ;D
Sarge?

PS; After all, he has a military grade, and you...........haven't.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 08:45:35 AM
1. Kubelik, VPO
2. Ozawa. BSO
3. ..............................
4. Dohnányi, ClevO
5. Kubelik
6. Solti. CSO
7. Scherchen
8. Ozawa. BSO
9. Giulini
10. Chailly, RIAS

That's how I'm going to vote (if you don't want to promote Scherchen ahead of Abbado, I understand. Your votes have already been cast anyway). That still leaves the Third undecided.

I just re-read your WETA article on the Third. Once again I'm struck by how much we differ here. My favorites (Horenstein, Bernstein/Sony, Levine, Haitink/Concertgebouw) aren't even mentioned except in a curt dismissal: "There are older recordings that are much admired, too. They are not included because they cannot honestly compete with newer, better sounding versions." I don't agree...but we've been down that road before.

I suppose we could agree on Kubelik but I think (like you do) that the Audite performance is better (and of course not one of the voting options). We may have to go our separate ways here.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 10:36:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 08, 2010, 10:28:39 AM
since you can still change your vote at a later time

You can? Interesting. I wonder if they'll notice a sudden and odd voting spike--all votes for the same performances  ;D

Quote from: erato on July 08, 2010, 10:30:56 AM
Sarge?

Take that hill, trooper! Charge!!!

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 08, 2010, 01:12:47 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 10:36:04 AM
You can? Interesting. I wonder if they'll notice a sudden and odd voting spike--all votes for the same performances  ;D

Take that hill, trooper! Charge!!!

Sarge

I'll vote once the thing lets me register, which at this moment it doesn't seem to want to do.

However, it does show a number of OOP recordings with this comment:
Quote
Many currently out-of-print Mahler recordings have been brought back to the catalogue for this anniversary. You can buy and listen to them while creating your Dream Mahler cycle.

I did the bolding.  I'm assuming the prices are whatever DG will list them for, but I haven't figured out how to get to a purchase link that shows prices. I think you have to register at the site first.  But apparently you don't need to depend on the graces of the DG voting public to get a copy in your hands now.

Among the items shown on this page are the Scherchen 7 and (you may want to consider this for your list) a Mengelberg 4th, both with the notation "International Release Date 7 July 2010"(clip on the CD image for the info). Both are labeled mono. The Ozawa 8th is also shown, but only with its original release date.  There's also a Scherchen 1 with the Adagio of the 10th, and one of the Scherchen 5 recordings that was discussed somewhere around here a little while ago--the studio recording, IIRC.

Edit: just saw what you wrote about Mengelberg not being available in the US.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 08, 2010, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on July 08, 2010, 01:12:47 PM
I'll vote once the thing lets me register, which at this moment it doesn't seem to want to do.

However, it does show a number of OOP recordings with this comment:
I did the bolding.  I'm assuming the prices are whatever DG will list them for, but I haven't figured out how to get to a purchase link that shows prices. I think you have to register at the site first.  But apparently you don't need to depend on the graces of the DG voting public to get a copy in your hands now.


having finally figured things out:
the OOP stuff is apparently available only as downloads, and at the moment only people in the UK can purchase the downloads.  Everyone else can only listen to the streaming downloads.

On the "featured albums" page, which has recordings now in print or soon to be released, only the CD currently in print can be purchased as a CD.  Apparently the not-yet released stuff (such as the Boulez Knaben Wunderhorn) is in the same position as the OOP CDs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 08, 2010, 10:35:25 PM
I went in and voted.

I then had a look at the DLVDE they are reissuing. Davis/Vickers/Norman. It brings details of it up, then nothing. I did not seem to be able to buy it, stream it or download it.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 08, 2010, 11:50:08 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 10:32:28 AM

I just re-read your WETA article on the Third. Once again I'm struck by how much we differ here. My favorites (Horenstein, Bernstein/Sony, Levine, Haitink/Concertgebouw) aren't even mentioned except in a curt dismissal: "There are older recordings that are much admired, too. They are not included because they cannot honestly compete with newer, better sounding versions." I don't agree...but we've been down that road before.

That was my feeling, too. It's a highly ideosyncratic list, often prologued by even more ideosyncratic explanations what the symphonies are supposed to be about. And as soon as we get into the 'sound' issue: many 1965 - 1975 recordings actually sound better than a lot of later recordings (one particularly shitty sounding recording is Karajan's live 9th).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 08, 2010, 11:55:36 PM
Quote from: Joe Barron on July 07, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
Is that your favorite? My whole life is a quest for the definitive recording of that symphony.

the Haitink 1969 may perhaps be my favorite, except for the 4th mvt, which I find rather problematic anyway. I think you need to be in the concert hall, with a really good conductor, for this piece to work. Perhaps Haitink's last Xmas matinee 9th has the added fervor to make it work. However I haven't heard that one in fifteen years. Anyway, I find the 'studio' Haitink a lot better than both Karajans and Bernsteins I know.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2010, 04:03:25 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 08, 2010, 11:50:08 PM
That was my feeling, too. It's a highly ideosyncratic list, often prologued by even more ideosyncratic explanations what the symphonies are supposed to be about. And as soon as we get into the 'sound' issue: many 1965 - 1975 recordings actually sound better than a lot of later recordings (one particularly shitty sounding recording is Karajan's live 9th).

It is an individual list with some surprising choices (and even more surprising dismissals) but that's what I expect from a good critic: a highly personal list that will make me rethink my own choices and consider new ones. Jens is much younger than some of us (most of us?), so he comes to the enterprise with less historical baggage. My own choices tend towards performances from the 60s, 70s not surprisingly: that's when the music first grabbed me. His is a fresh perspective, and one I appreciate even when I'm disagreeing (which isn't that often actually). The Third is where we differ the most and maybe I'm the one who's wearing blinders: M forever and I clashed violently over the same performances (Abbado, Boulez, his top choices).

Anyway, more lists are appearing as the anniversary year progresses. Just read Lebrecht's choices. One thing is certain: every list is going to be different; every list is going to appear idiosyncratic and even wrong to someone.

Quote from: Herman on July 08, 2010, 11:55:36 PM
the Haitink 1969 may perhaps be my favorite, except for the 4th mvt, which I find rather problematic anyway. I think you need to be in the concert hall, with a really good conductor, for this piece to work. Perhaps Haitink's last Xmas matinee 9th has the added fervor to make it work. However I haven't heard that one in fifteen years. Anyway, I find the 'studio' Haitink a lot better than both Karajans and Bernsteins I know.

I too think Haitink 69 is one of the great ones although memories of him conducting the Cleveland in 1973 might be influencing me. He was sensational live. In the last movement he conducted the audience as much as the orchestra. The contrast between the unearthly silence in the hall during the final pages followed by the most explosive ovation I've ever heard was nothing short of volcanic.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 09, 2010, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2010, 04:03:25 AM


I too think Haitink 69 is one of the great ones although memories of him conducting the Cleveland in 1973 might be influencing me. He was sensational live. In the last movement he conducted the audience as much as the orchestra. The contrast between the unearthly silence in the hall during the final pages followed by the most explosive ovation I've ever heard was nothing short of volcanic.

Same here in Amsterdam. At the final Xmas matinee Haitink famously dropped his baton after some moments of rapt silence, and it was years before he set foot again in the concertgebouw. It's been a long time since I listened to this performance last.

The Bernstein Concetgebouw reading used to have mythical status, too, with Bernstein walking around the stage with the score held aloft as if they were Mozes' tablets. However I found the (live) recording didn't hold up that well.

I can't help thinking some of the blame is in the music, and the last movement is just stretched a little too thinly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2010, 05:54:15 AM


The People's Mahler / Mahler to the People
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/07/peoples-mahler-mahler-to-people.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/07/peoples-mahler-mahler-to-people.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2010, 06:15:01 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 10, 2010, 05:54:15 AM

The People's Mahler / Mahler to the People
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/07/peoples-mahler-mahler-to-people.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/07/peoples-mahler-mahler-to-people.html)

Excellent. Let's hope it works.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 10, 2010, 07:10:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2010, 06:15:01 AM
Excellent. Let's hope it works.

Sarge

Pvt.  Kishnevi voted and reported in.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 10, 2010, 07:13:18 AM
I'm smartly at attention as well! Yesss, Sirrreeeeeee!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2010, 07:18:02 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on July 10, 2010, 07:10:29 AM
Pvt.  Kishnevi voted and reported in.

Quote from: erato on July 10, 2010, 07:13:18 AM
I'm smartly at attention as well! Yesss, Sirrreeeeeee!

Stand at ease, Troopers. Well done.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on July 10, 2010, 07:45:03 AM
Ok, voted for many of Jens' suggestions, but I'd be surprised if we can make past usual suspects.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on July 10, 2010, 07:47:25 AM
Same here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2010, 07:50:46 AM
Quote from: Drasko on July 10, 2010, 07:45:03 AM
Ok, voted for many of Jens' suggestions, but I'd be surprised if we can make past usual suspects.

It's a long shot, I know. Worth taking though.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 10, 2010, 08:00:50 AM
What's the value of a new set where everybody votes for their faveorites who they already love and presumably have? Inquiring minds wants to now. A great idea by Universal dragged down bt (the usual) smallest denominator.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2010, 08:37:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2010, 07:50:46 AM
It's a long shot, I know. Worth taking though.

Sarge

Just you wait. I have a radio station at my disposal*. [Evil laughter]


* Disclaimer: I have no power whatsoever over our programming, listener habits, or anything else WETA-related.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Joe Barron on July 10, 2010, 09:39:39 AM
This was exactly the conversation I was hoping to avoid. There are simply too many opinions and too many recordings to make sense of them all, and not eough money to sample everything. For the 9th, I'll stick to the Levine and Walter recordings I have (including Vienna 1938).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2010, 09:50:12 AM
Quote from: erato on July 10, 2010, 08:00:50 AM
What's the value of a new set where everybody votes for their faveorites who they already love and presumably have? Inquiring minds wants to now. A great idea by Universal dragged down bt (the usual) smallest denominator.

Yeah, it's nothing more than a publicity stunt and if the results are the "usual suspects, the "lowest common denominator," then it might actually backfire with few sales. Simply reissuing the rarities, or cycles long out of print, would seem to make more financial sense. But if they did that, we wouldn't be having as much fun  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 10, 2010, 10:01:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 10, 2010, 09:50:12 AM
Yeah, it's nothing more than a publicity stunt and if the results are the "usual suspects, the "lowest common denominator," then it might actually backfire with few sales. Simply reissuing the rarities, or cycles long out of print, would seem to make more financial sense. But if they did that, we wouldn't be having as much fun  :D

Sarge

The problem with these anthologies is that they try to please everyone and please no one.   If I were head of the company I would assemble two sets, one for newbies that would have a selection of most widely admired recordings, and a second "oddball" set with unfamiliar things, like that ancient Kubelik Mahler 1, maybe the Solti London Symphony 9, and other rarities (they must have some old Mengelberg or van Beinem recordings in the Philips catalog, no?).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 11, 2010, 01:08:52 AM
I'm a big Giulini fan generally, but I don't think I'd pick his CSO Mahler 9 as the top choice: where's the agitation? It's all a little too monumental. And of course Chicago is not a Mahler orchestra.

Inclusion in a special edition seems pointless as the Giulini is one of the most available Ninths (just like the Karajan). I'd prefer the old Barbirolli which as it happens is out of circulation right now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on July 11, 2010, 01:14:41 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 11, 2010, 01:08:52 AM
I'd prefer the old Barbirolli which as it happens is out of circulation right now.

He recorded for EMI, didn't he?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 11, 2010, 01:19:26 AM
And if it should be from the Universal catalogue I'd pick Haitink's 1987 final Xmas matinee. That's a rare item indeed, and a stellar performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 11, 2010, 01:21:41 AM
I see Sinopoli's complete cycle at amazon.de for 22 Euros. Any views?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on July 11, 2010, 01:36:01 AM
Quote from: erato on July 11, 2010, 01:21:41 AM
I see Sinopoli's complete cycle at amazon.de for 22 Euros. Any views?

Depends on your reaction to amsi, if that doesn't bother you buy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 11, 2010, 01:39:04 AM
Quote from: Drasko on July 11, 2010, 01:36:01 AM
Depends on your reaction to amsi, if that doesn't bother you buy.
Yes I know they do that. i have the Bach set by Schiff and have no problems with that at least, still a full orchestra might be something different?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on July 11, 2010, 01:46:12 AM
Quote from: erato on July 11, 2010, 01:39:04 AM
Yes I know they do that. i have the Bach set by Schiff and have no problems with that at least, still a full orchestra might be something different?

I have only one amsi-fied disc but don't have different release of the same to compare. The disc in question has Brahms' 1st Symphony by BPO/Karl Bohm from 1959 and Tragic Overture with VPO/Bohm from 70s. So if anyone has Australian Eloquence release of the 1st Symphony or Tragic Overture from the set and is willing to upload maybe we could do A - B comparison.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 11, 2010, 03:37:45 AM
Quote from: erato on July 11, 2010, 01:21:41 AM
I see Sinopoli's complete cycle at amazon.de for 22 Euros. Any views?

Totally! Superb, superb singing and individualistic, often very good performances. For 22 Euros, it's a steal.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2010, 04:22:06 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 11, 2010, 01:08:52 AM
I'm a big Giulini fan generally, but I don't think I'd pick his CSO Mahler 9 as the top choice...I'd prefer the old Barbirolli which as it happens is out of circulation right now.

Quote from: Herman on July 11, 2010, 01:19:26 AM
And if it should be from the Universal catalogue I'd pick Haitink's 1987 final Xmas matinee. That's a rare item indeed, and a stellar performance.

Neither Barbirolli nor Haitink 1987 are among the choices. The choices are these:

Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Carlo Maria Giulini (p) 1977

Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Bernard Haitink, (p) 1970

Philharmonia Orchestra, Giuseppe Sinopoli, (p) 1995

Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Leonard Bernstein, (p) 1986

London Symphony Orchestra, Georg Solti, (p) 1967

Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan, (p) 1981

Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Georg Solti, (p) 1983

Boston Symphony Orchestra, Seiji Ozawa, (p) 1991

Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Pierre Boulez, (p) 1998

The Cleveland Orchestra, Christoph von Dohnanyi, (p) 1999

Berliner Philharmoniker, Leonard Bernstein, (p) 1992

Europa Orchestra, Bernard Haitink, (p) 1993

Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Riccardo Chailly, (p) 2004

Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Rafael Kubelik, (p) 1967

Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan, (p) 1984

Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, Leonard Bernstein, (p) 1986

Wiener Philharmoniker, Claudio Abbado, (p) 1988

Berliner Philharmoniker, Claudio Abbado, (p) 2002


Jens suggested (along with Sinopoli) Giulini and I concurred. I voted for Giulini because that's one of the few from this list that I don't already own. The list that we forum members came up with, and Jens published, is not our best of list (if it were there would be several lists, all completely dfferent :D ) but a list of perfomances, many not readily available, we'd like to see issued as a box set.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 11, 2010, 04:40:33 AM
But the Amsi is a big problem.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 11, 2010, 08:35:15 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 11, 2010, 04:40:33 AM
But the Amsi is a big problem.

It is just an example of idiocy.  I have a DVD issued by DG of some Karajan video from the 60's and they bill AMSI as their method of generating "geniune" surround sound from a 2 channel source (although what is genuine about it I can't imagine).   But what is the logic of using this process to generate surround sound, then distributing it on a CD with 2 channels? 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 11, 2010, 09:01:50 AM
It sounds like voodoo. I read abou it as I have a Karajan DVD that has been given this treatment. Pseudo science.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 11, 2010, 09:11:50 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 11, 2010, 08:35:15 AM
But what is the logic of using this process to generate surround sound, then distributing it on a CD with 2 channels?
Yes, it's totally meaningless, the question is; does it degrade the final 2 ch sound? As mentioned before, I found little wrong with the Schiff Bach set using this method.  I'm still undecided on this set, at the price it seems a risk worth taking.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 11, 2010, 09:16:00 AM
The disc I have sounds fine; though I have no idea how it would have sounded before it was processed. But the entire expensive idea seemed pointless. I have no confidence that what I hear replicates how the orchestra would have sounded in the hall itself. As I was not there...do I care as long as the end result is impressive.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 11, 2010, 10:17:25 AM
Quote from: knight on July 11, 2010, 09:01:50 AM
It sounds like voodoo. I read abou it as I have a Karajan DVD that has been given this treatment. Pseudo science.

At least the Karajan DVD (I believe) makes it optional since there is still a stereo track.  In that context it may have some value if it simply puts some reverberation in your rear surround speakers.  I think I read somewhere that the ADSI cds require prologic processing to reveal the surround, but listening to a prologic encoded signal without the decoding is not ideal.  Bottom line, I avoid them. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on July 11, 2010, 10:20:37 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 11, 2010, 10:17:25 AM
At least the Karajan DVD (I believe) makes it optional since there is still a stereo track.  In that context it may have some value if it simply puts some reverberation in your rear surround speakers.  I think I read somewhere that the ADSI cds require prologic processing to reveal the surround, but listening to a prologic encoded signal without the decoding is not ideal.  Bottom line, I avoid them.

From Emil Berliner Studios:
QuoteAMSI I (Ambient Surround Imaging) has been developed in order to convert
stereo masters/material to (Dolby-Prologic) surround compatible formats.
A Dolby-Prologic Decoder is required for simulating the surround effect.
Such decoders are available in most of the standard amplifiers, as it is
in yours.

A computer-based process uses phase-shifts in the stereo material, which
results in a surround effect for the back loudspeaker channel as well as
for the centre channel.
By means of different specific processes the effect is even improved.

The best possible tuning of the Prologic amplifiers can be achieved with
disabling the additional DSP effects as "stadium", "theatre", etc. Only
this makes sure that the listener has the same conditions as in a
mastering or postproduction studio.

As the successor process we have developed AMSI II:.

AMSI II is a process that depicts stereo audio material into 5.1
Surround Sound, ready for storage on DVD Audio, DVD Video or SACD.
And we have found, for instance, that AMSI II and DVD Video make an
ideal pair: we add the AMSI II-processed Surround version (Dolby AC3
and/or DTS) to the original stereo sound track of DVD Videos.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 11, 2010, 07:37:38 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 11, 2010, 01:14:41 AM
He recorded for EMI, didn't he?
[He meaning Barbirolli]
Yes, he did.  Herman, what recording are you referring to?
I certainly have his 9th with the Berlin Phil on EMI's GROC series and (come to think of it) as part of EMI's Complete Mahler boxset, so that one is definitely available.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 11, 2010, 10:47:12 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on July 11, 2010, 07:37:38 PM
[He meaning Barbirolli]
Yes, he did.  Herman, what recording are you referring to?
I certainly have his 9th with the Berlin Phil on EMI's GROC series and (come to think of it) as part of EMI's Complete Mahler boxset, so that one is definitely available.
Yes, but since this is a Universal setup (from which Giulini is an option for the Dream Mahler cycle), I can't see why Barbirolli on EMI was brought into the fray.....?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 12, 2010, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: erato on July 11, 2010, 10:47:12 PM
Yes, but since this is a Universal setup (from which Giulini is an option for the Dream Mahler cycle), I can't see why Barbirolli on EMI was brought into the fray.....?

Absentmindedness. That's why I proposed the Haitink 1987 Ninth on 2nd thought.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 16, 2010, 05:27:40 AM
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 2)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1561 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1561)

Considerable updates after a few e-mails from Remo Mazzetti Jr.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 16, 2010, 07:41:10 AM
During a recent automobile excursion to Southern California and back, I relied partly on Chailly's Mahler cycle to help preserve my sanity.  Sarge and others might be pleased to hear that I enjoyed what I heard (1 through 5) very much.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 16, 2010, 07:42:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 16, 2010, 05:27:40 AM
Considerable updates after a few e-mails from Remo Mazzetti Jr.

A timely update for me: I just heard the Mazzetti version (Lopéz-Cobos) for the first time two days ago.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 16, 2010, 07:49:47 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 16, 2010, 07:41:10 AM
During a recent automobile excursion to Southern California and back, I relied partly on Chailly's Mahler cycle to help preserve my sanity.  Sarge and others might be pleased to hear that I enjoyed what I heard (1 through 5) very much.

I am pleased.  :)

Edit: But the biggest challenge is Chailly's Sixth and Eighth. Both are broad readings...in the case of the Sixth, very broad in the first movement: like Barbirolli but utterly devoid of passion and warmth. It's an interpretation I like to think of as the Sixth Klemperer could have recorded after he'd finished the Seventh: slow, grim and stoic.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 16, 2010, 07:55:31 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 16, 2010, 07:41:10 AM
During a recent automobile excursion to Southern California and back, I relied partly on Chailly's Mahler cycle to help preserve my sanity.  Sarge and others might be pleased to hear that I enjoyed what I heard (1 through 5) very much.
You must have speeded.   >:D

I mean; how many miles are that? :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 16, 2010, 08:33:17 AM
Quote from: erato on July 16, 2010, 07:55:31 AM
You must have speeded.   >:D

I mean; how many miles are that? :'(

About 1500 miles, somewhat fewer than 500 of them accompanied by Mahler.  Note, however, that we averaged about 3 gallons of fuel per symphony.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on July 16, 2010, 08:35:34 AM
Commendable symphonic economy!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on July 16, 2010, 08:36:07 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 16, 2010, 08:33:17 AM
About 1500 miles, somewhat fewer than 500 of them accompanied by Mahler.  Note, however, that we averaged about 3 gallons of fuel per symphony.  ;D
Not very fuel-efficient those symphonies. Haydn would have been a better choice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 16, 2010, 08:38:04 AM
Quote from: erato on July 16, 2010, 08:36:07 AM
Not very fuel-efficient those symphonies. Haydn would have been a better choice.
;D ;D ;D

Thanks to your tip about jpc, I may test your theory soon!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on July 16, 2010, 11:05:25 AM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/decca4782358.jpg)

[Link (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4782358)]

Is this a chance for a No. 2 other than Ozawa's to come out from a state of out-of-print-ness?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on July 16, 2010, 12:38:49 PM
The stream of Eschenbach's 5th is up since yesterday :

http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/#movnav (http://mahler.christoph-eschenbach.com/#movnav)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 23, 2010, 02:15:16 AM
Quote from: Herman on July 11, 2010, 01:08:52 AM
And of course Chicago is not a Mahler orchestra.


Indeed. That's why Reiner, Solti, Giulini, Abbado, Levine, Boulez, Barenboim, Tennstedt, and Haitink never recorded any Mahler with the CSO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 23, 2010, 03:35:10 AM
Quote from: erato on July 11, 2010, 01:21:41 AM
I see Sinopoli's complete cycle at amazon.de for 22 Euros. Any views?
One of my faves--and that's about a fifth the price I paid, which I have never regretted.  Hope you snatched it up!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 23, 2010, 03:48:50 AM
I just checked out the Universal Mahler site under discussion.  Interesting concept, but the "winning" cycle so far comprises mostly recordings I already have, so my checkbook seems safe!  Looking at the possible selections makes me appreciate how much we're spoiled for choice these days.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 25, 2010, 08:07:07 PM
[As I noted in another thread, I am in something of an impromptu - though extended - summer break. Meaning, I might still not post any further for a while; but I thought I'd share a few relevant thoughts while I'm here, with apologies for lumping them all into a single post!]


Quote from: Herman on July 02, 2010, 03:13:03 AM
BTW this Mahler 9 binge started when I watched Eschenbach and l'Orchestre de Paris on Medici tv. An interpretation that is marred occasionally by monumentally slow tempi (no swing in the Landler), but is rather interesting in the way Eschenbach makes it a journey from celestial light at the start to yet again celestial light at the end.

Interestingly, this description (without having heard the performance itself) feels to me as it if could be describing Maazel's 9th.

As regulars of this thread might remember, I was going through his cycle last month: and even though I will still post detailed impressions at some point in the future, that 9th was one of the most unexpectedly powerful performances in it.

Very, very steely, almost 'industrial Mahler' (cf. Industrial Metal) like a lot of Maazel's Mahler, but it still manages to link up the light at the beginning and the light at the end of that particular tunnel more strongly than most bar, say, Walter 1938 ever manage.

Perhaps Boulez will satisfy similarly, once I get around to hearing his, with less post-apocalyptic barrenness in between.


But yes: firstly, I am very inclined to listen to Eschenbach's 9th, based on your above comment.

And secondly, I am equally inclined to recommend Maazel's, for those who can stomach it (and him).


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2010, 08:24:51 AM
I haven't heard your Abbado but are there compelling reasons to prefer it to the Chicago performance; any reason one needs both in their collection? I'm not saying it isn't a great version but I would guess many Mahlerites already have an Abbado Seventh.

This is strictly my opinion, but I think both Abbado 7ths have their merits. The two performances are fairly similar overall, but the details of the phrasing, the character of the respective orchestra, and certain tweaks here and there end up making them feel surprisingly dissimilar.

The difference, in short, is that the Chicago (as you probably know) is a razor-sharp performance, aggressively lyrical in the Nachtmusik, and sort of hyped-up in the finale; whereas the Berlin 7th, by comparison, feels much more comfortable in its own skin, for lack of a more rigorous term.

It's a little like the difference between the LSO-era, and the CSO-era Solti, only chronologically inverted. To me, the apparent extra amount of security and comfort the BPO had with Abbado pays off more than the CSO's oomph, even if it is less sharp, and the recording somewhat fluffy.



Quote from: Drasko on July 11, 2010, 01:46:12 AM
I have only one amsi-fied disc but don't have different release of the same to compare. The disc in question has Brahms' 1st Symphony by BPO/Karl Bohm from 1959 and Tragic Overture with VPO/Bohm from 70s. So if anyone has Australian Eloquence release of the 1st Symphony or Tragic Overture from the set and is willing to upload maybe we could do A - B comparison.

Milos, I'm not quite sure where, but I do remember having a discussion with Scarpia on AMSI a couple of months ago, leading to each of us uploading a track from Schiff's WTC for an A-B comparison. You might still find the links if you look.

And, I don't think Scarpia posted any comments before my break, but my own impression was that the AMSI version in stereo has a little more reverb to it, and is slightly less aurally focused as a result - a bit 'woolier', if you will, than the original.

But it really is a slight difference: hardly a deal breaker, under most circumstances.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 25, 2010, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Renfield on July 25, 2010, 08:07:07 PMAnd, I don't think Scarpia posted any comments before my break, but my own impression was that the AMSI version in stereo has a little more reverb to it, and is slightly less aurally focused as a result - a bit 'woolier', if you will, than the original.

But it really is a slight difference: hardly a deal breaker, under most circumstances.

I uploaded a track for comparison, but never compared myself.  AMSI is what DG uses to make simulated surround sound for DVD out of old stereo tapes.  On the Eloquence, they go one step farther (apparently) and encode the surround sound in the 2 channel CD for Dolby Pro-logic decoding.   I don't know what happens when you listen to Dolby Prologic encoded audio without the decoding.  Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 25, 2010, 08:26:01 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 25, 2010, 08:15:49 PM
I uploaded a track for comparison, but never compared myself.  AMSI is what DG uses to make simulated surround sound for DVD out of old stereo tapes.  On the Eloquence, they go one step farther (apparently) and encode the surround sound in the 2 channel CD for Dolby Pro-logic decoding.   I don't know what happens when you listen to Dolby Prologic encoded audio without the decoding.  Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Well, it isn't! As I said, there is an observable lack of focus in the sound.

But by 'observable', I mean the original is a little bit quieter and tighter when you listen on headphones. I've no doubt it could be more pronounced on higher-end (£250+) headphones, but I'm sure most people's dedicated amplifiers can decode Dolby Pro-logic, so it should be less of an issue for speakers. It's not a catastrophic difference anyhow: more like an audiophile nuisance, within the context of a substantially smaller asking price. Certainly less substantial than the average difference between remasterings of a historical recording, for example.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 25, 2010, 08:39:19 PM
Quote from: Renfield on July 25, 2010, 08:26:01 PM
Well, it isn't! As I said, there is an observable lack of focus in the sound.

But by 'observable', I mean the original is a little bit quieter and tighter when you listen on headphones. I've no doubt it could be more pronounced on higher-end (£250+) headphones, but I'm sure most people's dedicated amplifiers can decode Dolby Pro-logic, so it should be less of an issue for speakers. It's not a catastrophic difference anyhow: more like an audiophile nuisance, within the context of a substantially smaller asking price. Certainly less substantial than the average difference between remasterings of a historical recording, for example.

Well, you could buy the eloquence set, then, since you legitimately own a copy of the recordings, download a lossless copy of the proper, non-bastardized version from a shady web site.  Just saying, hypothetically.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 25, 2010, 08:42:28 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 25, 2010, 08:39:19 PM
Well, you could buy the eloquence set, then, since you legitimately own a copy of the recordings, download a lossless copy of the proper, non-bastardized version from a shady web site.  Just saying, hypothetically.

Hypothetically, I suppose that's not a bad suggestion!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on July 28, 2010, 09:09:40 PM
Just dropping in to say: Sarge, if you haven't heard Maazel's New York 7th, you really should. It's even slower than the VPO version. Suffice to say, I thought that one held together (though I could see why someone could think otherwise); this one literally crawls to a halt.

Still fascinating, in a Celibidache-does-Mahler kind of way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on July 29, 2010, 06:46:36 PM
Last week on his BBC 3 program "In Search of Mahler" (unfortunately no longer available online) Norman Lebrecht made quite a point of declaring that Mahler was never known to have entered a church after his conversion and marriage.  Yesterday I started Alma's Memories and Letters where she writes that Mahler "could never pass a church without going in; he loved the smell of incense and Gregorian chants."  Does Lebrecht have any evidence to support his claim?  I am well aware of the "Alma Problem" but what reason would she have to make something up about how often her husband entered churches?

Incidentally, the book has been very enjoyable so far (and I look forward to visiting others to learn where Alma stretched the truth).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on July 29, 2010, 06:55:26 PM
I think Lebrecht is the very paragon of the unreliable narrator.

Given the choice between trusting him and Alma Mahler, I suspect many people would choose neither.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 29, 2010, 07:52:06 PM
Quote from: edward on July 29, 2010, 06:55:26 PM
I think Lebrecht is the very paragon of the unreliable narrator.

Given the choice between trusting him and Alma Mahler, I suspect many people would choose neither.

Alma is much more interesting, at least.

I have heard the claim that Mahler never attended church after his baptism, but can not remember at the moment where.  However, it is possible for both Alma and Lebrecht to be correct: to admire the aesthetics of sound and spectacle at a mass and to attend as an act of religious devotion are two entirely different things.

However little he did attend mass, he was at least familiar enough with liturgical texts to recall the words of the Venite almost perfectly when he began to compose the Eighth.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on July 29, 2010, 09:45:28 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on July 29, 2010, 07:52:06 PM
However, it is possible for both Alma and Lebrecht to be correct: to admire the aesthetics of sound and spectacle at a mass and to attend as an act of religious devotion are two entirely different things.

Very true.  But if I remember correctly, Lebrecht's statement would lead the listener to believe that Mahler never even set foot inside a church for any reason after the wedding, a claim I found peculiar at the time and then questionable while reading Alma's book.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 30, 2010, 12:10:37 AM
Quote from: edward on July 29, 2010, 06:55:26 PM
I think Lebrecht is the very paragon of the unreliable narrator.

Given the choice between trusting him and Alma Mahler, I suspect many people would choose neither.

Amen.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on July 30, 2010, 08:18:40 AM
In the middle of listening to Mahler's 7th.  I find I am enjoying it a lot more today than in previous attempts.  It is still such a different symphony.

One comment (and not to be taken as a criticism), but I am wondering why the use of cowbells in the 2nd movement?  They seem, to me, out of place.  At least, I find the use of the cowbells in #6 to be very effective and visually give me the idea that I'm standing in a pasture out in the Alps.  However, I don't get the use of them in Symphony No. 7?  :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 30, 2010, 08:26:43 AM
Quote from: Brahmsian on July 30, 2010, 08:18:40 AM
In the middle of listening to Mahler's 7th.  I find I am enjoying it a lot more today than in previous attempts.  It is still such a different symphony.

One comment (and not to be taken as a criticism), but I am wondering why the use of cowbells in the 2nd movement?  They seem, to me, out of place.  At least, I find the use of the cowbells in #6 to be very effective and visually give me the idea that I'm standing in a pasture out in the Alps.  However, I don't get the use of them in Symphony No. 7?  :-\

Crossing  a  lake.  Still dark, perhaps fog.  From afar, up and around you on the Alms you hear the distant cow bells, assuring you that there is a serene existence, parallel to you.

For example. Or anything else you wish to imagine.  But don't be disheartened, M7 is a tough not to crack and I certainly haven't come close to understanding it yet, either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on July 30, 2010, 08:38:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 30, 2010, 08:26:43 AM
Crossing  a  lake.  Still dark, perhaps fog.  From afar, up and around you on the Alms you hear the distant cow bells, assuring you that there is a serene existence, parallel to you.

For example. Or anything else you wish to imagine.  But don't be disheartened, M7 is a tough not to crack and I certainly haven't come close to understanding it yet, either.

Thanks, Jens.  M7 is a mysterious work.  I must say that the 4th movement (Nachtmusik II) is utterly delightful, and a welcome reprieve to the eerieness and weirdness that pervades the rest of the symphony.  Love the mandolin!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on July 30, 2010, 08:47:03 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 30, 2010, 08:26:43 AM
For example. Or anything else you wish to imagine.  But don't be disheartened, M7 is a tough not to crack and I certainly haven't come close to understanding it yet, either.
I don't actually think I've ever heard anyone say they understand M7. I know I don't.

And for me, that's part of the greatness of the work: there's so many different things it can say, depending on interpreter and listener. (For this reason, it's probably become my favourite Mahler symphony in recent years.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 30, 2010, 10:42:39 AM
What's to understand?  It's music, not a logical proposition.  Understanding just gets in the way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on July 30, 2010, 05:26:21 PM
I don't understand it. I just enjoy the moments.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brunumb on July 31, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 30, 2010, 10:42:39 AM
What's to understand?  It's music, not a logical proposition.  Understanding just gets in the way.

Wow.  Those thoughts were going through my head, I turned the page, and there was your post.
Snap!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on July 31, 2010, 04:57:50 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 30, 2010, 10:42:39 AM
What's to understand?  It's music, not a logical proposition.  Understanding just gets in the way.

Depends on what you mean by understand.  If mean "understand what the composer was trying to get across" I agree understanding is not necessary to enjoy.  But with some works (to some extent M7 in my case) I have trouble coming to terms with (or understanding) what it means to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 31, 2010, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: Brahmsian on July 30, 2010, 08:38:49 AM
Thanks, Jens.  M7 is a mysterious work.  I must say that the 4th movement (Nachtmusik II) is utterly delightful, and a welcome reprieve to the eerieness and weirdness that pervades the rest of the symphony.  Love the mandolin!!

I don't see what's particularly "difficult" about this work, except that the finale is rather startling, and not as good as the rest.

The middle three movements are a great experience, with the scherzo as the heart of darkness of the entire symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on August 10, 2010, 12:44:06 PM
Not sure if anybody is interested (or if this is even a bargain) --- As part of their clearance sale, Arkiv is offering Sinopoli's complete Mahler for $59.99 ... is it any good? (though I am not really in the market for big ticket purchases at the moment.... don't talk it up too much! :) )

Has there been much discussion about single conductor Mahler cycles?  The search engine mostly lead me to threads about building cycles (logical, as this is the best way to get the best).  But what are some favorite overall boxes?  For some reason, even though many don't seem to be huge fans, the Solti set seems to be calling me.  Would be quite the gamble, though. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 10, 2010, 01:06:22 PM
Quote from: BMW on August 10, 2010, 12:44:06 PM
Not sure if anybody is interested (or if this is even a bargain) --- As part of their clearance sale, Arkiv is offering Sinopoli's complete Mahler for $59.99 ... is it any good? (though I am not really in the market for big ticket purchases at the moment.... don't talk it up too much! :) )

Has there been much discussion about single conductor Mahler cycles?  The search engine mostly lead me to threads about building cycles (logical, as this is the best way to get the best).  But what are some favorite overall boxes?  For some reason, even though many don't seem to be huge fans, the Solti set seems to be calling me.  Would be quite the gamble, though.
Sinopoli is EUR 21.99 at JPC.

These days, there are some great boxes at reasonable prices including the above Sinopoli, Bernstein, Bertini, etc.  Others here can help discuss the various boxes (I've not heard so many), but I have been thrilled with Bertini who is consistently good. Solti is probably not such a risk. He has some well regarded versions out there, including the 8th, and these are quite good. Others can provide more detail.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Philoctetes on August 10, 2010, 01:08:49 PM
Quote from: BMW on August 10, 2010, 12:44:06 PM
Not sure if anybody is interested (or if this is even a bargain) --- As part of their clearance sale, Arkiv is offering Sinopoli's complete Mahler for $59.99 ... is it any good? (though I am not really in the market for big ticket purchases at the moment.... don't talk it up too much! :) )

Has there been much discussion about single conductor Mahler cycles?  The search engine mostly lead me to threads about building cycles (logical, as this is the best way to get the best).  But what are some favorite overall boxes?  For some reason, even though many don't seem to be huge fans, the Solti set seems to be calling me.  Would be quite the gamble, though.

I own the Sinopoli, along with the Kubelik, and I find his cycle to be very enjoyable. It's well performed, although I find the orchestra a bit too balanced. (I tend to like my Mahler loud and bombastic, like the CSO with Solti.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 10, 2010, 01:27:51 PM
Quote from: BMW on August 10, 2010, 12:44:06 PM
Not sure if anybody is interested (or if this is even a bargain) --- As part of their clearance sale, Arkiv is offering Sinopoli's complete Mahler for $59.99 ... is it any good? (though I am not really in the market for big ticket purchases at the moment.... don't talk it up too much! :) )


They're ridding themselves of the old set which has already been replaced in Europe by a much cheaper reincarnation of the same cycle. (~21 Euros)
The set itself is one of the most individual and one of the more rewarding. Solti's Mahler, well... let me not repeat myself too much. Shudder.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on August 10, 2010, 01:29:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 10, 2010, 01:27:51 PM
They're ridding themselves of the old set which has already been replaced in Europe by a much cheaper reincarnation of the same cycle. (~21 Euros)
...which has fake dolby-digital surround sound encoding.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 10, 2010, 01:42:37 PM
Quote from: Philoctetes on August 10, 2010, 01:08:49 PM
I own the Sinopoli, along with the Kubelik, and I find his cycle to be very enjoyable. It's well performed, although I find the orchestra a bit too balanced. (I tend to like my Mahler loud and bombastic, like the CSO with Solti.)

The DG Complete Mahler box includes Sinopoli's 7th.  I'm not sure how I rate the performance overall, but one thing I did notice, especially in the first movement, was that much more of the detailing and the inner voices came out: I heard more than I remember hearing in almost any other recording of the symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Philoctetes on August 10, 2010, 01:58:05 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on August 10, 2010, 01:42:37 PM
The DG Complete Mahler box includes Sinopoli's 7th.  I'm not sure how I rate the performance overall, but one thing I did notice, especially in the first movement, was that much more of the detailing and the inner voices came out: I heard more than I remember hearing in almost any other recording of the symphony.

I would agree with that, in regards to Sinopoli.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on August 11, 2010, 12:11:32 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on August 10, 2010, 01:29:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 10, 2010, 05:27:51 PM
They're ridding themselves of the old set which has already been replaced in Europe by a much cheaper reincarnation of the same cycle. (~21 Euros)

...which has fake dolby-digital surround sound encoding.

Guess this particular deal is only a deal if one is in persuit of these recordings sans dolby-digital.

Does anybody know where I could hear the "Conductors Speak about Mahler" and "I Remember Mahler Programs" from the big New York Philharmonic live set (without buying it or the newly remastered Bernstein which only seems to have the latter)?  I only learned of these programs an hour ago and cannot believe that such fascinating documents can exist without getting much more publicity.  I still find it difficult to wrap my mind around the fact that there were so many people who knew Mahler (including the mother of his children!) that lived to see two World Wars, the atomic bomb, the launching of the space program, at least the beginnings of Vietnam.........crazy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 11, 2010, 01:34:40 AM
Quote from: BMW on August 11, 2010, 12:11:32 AM
Guess this particular deal is only a deal if one is in persuit of these recordings sans dolby-digital.

Does anybody know where I could hear the "Conductors Speak about Mahler" and "I Remember Mahler Programs" from the big New York Philharmonic live set (without buying it or the newly remastered Bernstein which only seems to have the latter)?  I only learned of these programs an hour ago and cannot believe that such fascinating documents can exist without getting much more publicity.  I still find it difficult to wrap my mind around the fact that there were so many people who knew Mahler (including the mother of his children!) that lived to see two World Wars, the atomic bomb, the launching of the space program, at least the beginnings of Vietnam.........crazy.

Interesting more in theory than actuality, I found.
I'm sure someone can upload that for you, though...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on August 11, 2010, 05:11:37 AM
Levine's incomplete cycle is coming out boxed from Sony in autumn.

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3889432
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on August 11, 2010, 07:21:44 AM
Ooh, finally. Some of those have been outsider picks for so long.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 11, 2010, 07:59:44 AM
Quote from: Lethe on August 11, 2010, 07:21:44 AM
Ooh, finally. Some of those have been outsider picks for so long.
Gosh, I'm not sure I've ever heard any Mahler recordings by Levine.  I do admire him greatly in selected repertoire, however, so I'm certainly interested in giving him a go.  Which recording(s) do you recommend?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on August 11, 2010, 08:04:56 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 11, 2010, 07:59:44 AM
Gosh, I'm not sure I've ever heard any Mahler recordings by Levine.  I do admire him greatly in selected repertoire, however, so I'm certainly interested in giving him a go.  Which recording(s) do you recommend?

I cannot speak for any of his recordings (well, except for the live recording of the Sixth with the BSO that was released a season or two ago).  Hearing the Ninth in Symphony Hall under Levine's direction was wonderful.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on August 11, 2010, 08:09:03 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 11, 2010, 07:59:44 AM
Gosh, I'm not sure I've ever heard any Mahler recordings by Levine.  I do admire him greatly in selected repertoire, however, so I'm certainly interested in giving him a go.  Which recording(s) do you recommend?

The Fifth from Philadelphia for the solo trumpet of Frank Kaderabek.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on August 11, 2010, 08:14:47 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 11, 2010, 01:34:40 AM
Interesting more in theory than actuality, I found.

Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!    :D

What did you find disappointing about it?  Others seem to think it is worth the cost of the new Bernstein set (the merits of whose remastering I see has already come up on this forum).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 11, 2010, 08:46:52 AM
Quote from: BMW on August 11, 2010, 08:14:47 AM
Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!    :D

What did you find disappointing about it?  Others seem to think it is worth the cost of the new Bernstein set (the merits of whose remastering I see has already come up on this forum).

Sure it's interesting in hearing a 50's, 60's broadcast of interviews of old orchestra musicians that played with Mahler... but no more than "interesting". It wasn't revelatory in any meaningful way. A great bonus to have in that set and to listen to, once, twice...  Part of the superb overall presentation of that remastered, reorganized set but hardly reason to spring for it if you already have the old set and don't care about the slight (but notable) improvement of the sound quality.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on August 11, 2010, 11:20:12 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 11, 2010, 07:59:44 AM
Gosh, I'm not sure I've ever heard any Mahler recordings by Levine.  I do admire him greatly in selected repertoire, however, so I'm certainly interested in giving him a go.  Which recording(s) do you recommend?
I think Sarge is the go-to guy for Levine in Mahler - he has made numerous positive comments. The one I followed up was the 3rd, which I found far more convincing than many in full cycles - I often find myself feeling the 3rd is among the weakest of many cycles. The Levine breathes naturalness, confidence and has a singer on great form.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BMW on August 11, 2010, 11:56:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 11, 2010, 08:46:52 AM
Sure it's interesting in hearing a 50's, 60's broadcast of interviews of old orchestra musicians that played with Mahler... but no more than "interesting". It wasn't revelatory in any meaningful way. A great bonus to have in that set and to listen to, once, twice...  Part of the superb overall presentation of that remastered, reorganized set but hardly reason to spring for it if you already have the old set and don't care about the slight (but notable) improvement of the sound quality.

I have several of Bernstein's Mahler recordings on LP and am not planning on buying the complete CD set anytime soon.  Will continue searching around and keep my fingers crossed for what would be a much appreciated upload!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on August 14, 2010, 05:15:29 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51O%2BwyYkZlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This is the best Mahler disc you can buy today.............
(for highest quality picture and sound)

I previously reported here on the Abbado Mahler DVD set as I acquired them 2,4,5,6,7,9 and we are still waiting for 8th, 1st was just released. All very impressive recent performances in quality widescreen 16:9 format, very happy with them overall.

This 2007 Mahler 3rd in blu ray 1080p format however is just amazing, has raised the realism bar to another level. The picture quality is the best I have seen for any classical disc, you are holding the instruments in your hand and seeing everything in the finest detail, but even more impressive is the sound quality. The 5.1 surround sound is extremely impressive with a massive dynamic range, this is the complete audio visual package. I was completely immersed in Mahler's world and only wish previous releases were also blu ray discs.......

Anyone else have this yet?

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on August 15, 2010, 01:44:09 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on August 14, 2010, 05:15:29 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51O%2BwyYkZlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This is the best Mahler disc you can buy today.............
Sure looks painful with that bow in the eye!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 05, 2010, 12:54:05 AM
another attempt at getting the People's Mahler Edition right.


(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/mahler2010_2011.png)
Make the People's Mahler Interesting
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2282 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2282)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MDL on September 05, 2010, 04:04:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 05, 2010, 12:54:05 AM
another attempt at getting the People's Mahler Edition right.


(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/mahler2010_2011.png)
Make the People's Mahler Interesting
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2282 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2282)

That's a great article, and I'm with you about Kubelik's 3 and 5. I'm not sure about Solti's 6, which I really enjoy but in a Rite of Spring kind of way, rather than a Mahler 6 kind of way. And who the hell is voting for Karajan in 4? Give me Maazel, Chailly, Kubelik... anyone else, really.

And I'm going to have to dig around the murkier corners of GMG to find out what you've got against Solti's 8!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 05, 2010, 04:20:15 AM
Quote from: MDL on September 05, 2010, 04:04:08 AM
That's a great article, and I'm with you about Kubelik's 3 and 5. I'm not sure about Solti's 6, which I really enjoy but in a Rite of Spring kind of way, rather than a Mahler 6 kind of way. And who the hell is voting for Karajan in 4? Give me Maazel, Chailly, Kubelik... anyone else, really.

And I'm going to have to dig around the murkier corners of GMG to find out what you've got against Solti's 8!

No need to dig much...

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/live-recordings-of-mahlers-eighth.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/live-recordings-of-mahlers-eighth.html)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MDL on September 05, 2010, 05:23:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 05, 2010, 04:20:15 AM
No need to dig much...

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/live-recordings-of-mahlers-eighth.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/live-recordings-of-mahlers-eighth.html)

Blimey, you've been busy! I'm going to have to reread these because my head is spinning with all the detail.

Although I've got umpteen recordings of the 8th (Tennstedt, Solti, Kubelik DG, Haitink, Bernstein Sony, Davis, Sinopoli, Rattle, Bertini), I've never been able to make up my mind which one/ones I prefer, whereas I'd have no problems listing my top five recordings of, say, 2, 6 and 9. Based on your recommendations, I'm going to give Sinopoli another whirl. Tennstedt was my first Mahler 8, so not surprisingly, I tend to think of that as being my favourite. Having said that, I need to dig out Bernstein's Sony recording which blew me away a few years ago. Critics seem to have been unanimously impressed by Bertini's Cologne recording, which I really enjoyed last time I played it.

Anyway, Mr Laurson, I'm going to search out the Ozawa online. Based on what you've said, I've got to hear this one.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on October 06, 2010, 05:47:19 AM
Well my friends, if you even had any doubts before now it's official: we are not The People.

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_November10/4779260.htm

To be honest I can't quite remember all of my choices from back then, but I'm pretty positive it was none of these (except Chailly 10, which was more or less by default).

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 06, 2010, 05:58:56 AM
1, 2, 5, & 10 are good choices.  No DLVDE! At the price--$35 for 13 discs--it looks like a great bargain for Mahler noobs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2010, 07:05:50 AM
Those are some of my favorite recordings, and I don't own them anymore so I'm very pleased and will order this set. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on October 06, 2010, 08:28:40 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 06, 2010, 07:05:50 AM
Those are some of my favorite recordings, and I don't own them anymore so I'm very pleased and will order this set. :)
And as a bonus you will find my real name in the booklet!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2010, 08:42:56 AM
Wait, really?  Well it is so long before it comes out that it will arrive someday in January and I'll forget that I had pre-ordered it in October! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on October 07, 2010, 11:08:52 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 06, 2010, 05:58:56 AM
1, 2, 5, & 10 are good choices.  No DLVDE! At the price--$35 for 13 discs--it looks like a great bargain for Mahler noobs.

I was only surprised by two "peoples" choices:

Mahler 4 - Karajan ?
Mahler 9 - Giulini ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on October 07, 2010, 11:15:17 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514Kwhz5C5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The latest Abbado Lucerne DVD - Mahler 1st is another great entry in his almost complete Mahler DVD set (waiting for 8th) performance sound image all very good

The big bonus is Prokofiev 3rd piano concerto by Yuja Wang (unknown to me) really impressed me greatly, much better than I expected...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 07, 2010, 11:47:40 AM
Quote from: DarkAngel on October 07, 2010, 11:08:52 AM

I was only surprised by two "peoples" choices:

Mahler 4 - Karajan ?
Mahler 9 - Giulini ?

I have the Karajan 4 on a late 80's CD and I think it is weak.  The Giulini 9 is supposed to be miraculous, I haven't heard it.  A shame that no oddball recordings were picked. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on October 07, 2010, 12:40:16 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 07, 2010, 11:47:40 AM
I have the Karajan 4 on a late 80's CD and I think it is weak.  The Giulini 9 is supposed to be miraculous, I haven't heard it.  A shame that no oddball recordings were picked.

I would have been less surprised if "people" selected the Karajan 9 (not 4)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5173EVG2HJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 07, 2010, 12:48:42 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on October 07, 2010, 12:40:16 PM

I would have been less surprised if "people" selected the Karajan 9 (not 4)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5173EVG2HJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I don't like that one, and prefer his studio recording. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DarkAngel on October 07, 2010, 01:43:38 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 07, 2010, 12:48:42 PM
I don't like that one, and prefer his studio recording.

I heard somewhere that after the success of Bernstein 9 with BPO, HVK wanted to have another go at it resulting in the live Karajan 9 recording.......

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61x9tscTkYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B002UIWSL4/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5173EVG2HJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 07, 2010, 01:50:15 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel on October 07, 2010, 01:43:38 PM

I heard somewhere that after the success of Bernstein 9 with BPO, HVK wanted to have another go at it resulting in the live Karajan 9 recording.......

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61x9tscTkYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B002UIWSL4/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5173EVG2HJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Hard to reconcile that theory with the fact that both Karajan's live and studio recordings were made after Bernstein's recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 07, 2010, 03:46:52 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 07, 2010, 12:48:42 PM
I don't like that one, and prefer his studio recording.
:o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2010, 03:58:04 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 07, 2010, 11:47:40 AM
I have the Karajan 4 on a late 80's CD and I think it is weak.  The Giulini 9 is supposed to be miraculous, I haven't heard it.  A shame that no oddball recordings were picked.

The Giulini 9 is great.  I don't think that DG has any great 4ths.  Boulez might have been a better choice.  The Bernstein is probably not because I'm like the only person that likes that recording! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on October 09, 2010, 01:22:31 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 06, 2010, 05:58:56 AM
1, 2, 5, & 10 are good choices.  No DLVDE! At the price--$35 for 13 discs--it looks like a great bargain for Mahler noobs.

Should the People's Box figure into my "first Mahler cycle" shopping considerations? It is at pretty much exactly the same price as Bertini and Tennstedt. Currently my guess is Bertini makes the best intro...?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on October 09, 2010, 01:28:34 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2010, 01:22:31 AM
Should the People's Box figure into my "first Mahler cycle" shopping considerations? It is at pretty much exactly the same price as Bertini and Tennstedt. Currently my guess is Bertini makes the best intro...?
Bertini is far cheaper in Europe, check the price on mdt.co.uk eg.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on October 09, 2010, 01:52:01 AM
Quote from: erato on October 09, 2010, 01:28:34 AM
Bertini is far cheaper in Europe, check the price on mdt.co.uk eg.

People's box 25 pounds MDT, Bertini 18.50 pounds MDT. Yeah, I guess that's ten bucks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2010, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2010, 01:52:01 AM
People's box 25 pounds MDT, Bertini 18.50 pounds MDT. Yeah, I guess that's ten bucks.
Plus you get a really good version of Das Lied with Bertini. On the other hand, there is something to be said for a variety of approaches (and many of them are considered top choices). Then again, you can find most of them separately if you are interested.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2010, 04:37:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2010, 01:22:31 AM
Should the People's Box figure into my "first Mahler cycle" shopping considerations? It is at pretty much exactly the same price as Bertini and Tennstedt. Currently my guess is Bertini makes the best intro...?

You probably already know that Hurwitz thinks so: "...on balance this is the finest complete Mahler cycle available." I would modify that by saying it's the safest Mahler cycle. There's really nothing wrong with it, much to admire, but in my case, not enough to love. Excepting the Ninth, it just doesn't stir my passions. It's too straightforward for me; no interpretive quirks leap out. It's just pure Mahler...which is a good thing, I guess, and perhaps for that reason does make the best introduction. For the price, a steal. (One caveat: my computer refuses to play some of the discs; I don't know why. They play normally in my CD players.)

Although everyone but DavidW is disappointed by the contents of the People's Edition--because most of us already own many if not all the performances (I do)--it's also an excellent choice for the Mahler newbie. Excepting Karajan's Fourth, these are all admired performances. In your case I would say a purchase depends on how deep you think you might get into Mahler. If you think he'll remain on the periphery of your musical interests, buy it and be happy that you have some of the best Mahler money can buy. Otherwise you may find it redundant when the Abbado and Bernstein cycles call out to you  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 09, 2010, 05:26:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2010, 04:37:48 AM
Although everyone but DavidW is disappointed by the contents of the People's Edition--because most of us already own many if not all the performances (I do)--it's also an excellent choice for the Mahler newbie. Excepting Karajan's Fourth, these are all admired performances. In your case I would say a purchase depends on how deep you think you might get into Mahler...

What he said. Also check first how it really ended up differing from the Mahler Edition on the same label... and then maybe get that. But either of those "BEST OF" cycles on UNI are ideal beginner's non-cycles that I'd recommend over any one-conductor cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 09, 2010, 06:00:11 AM
I had sold off most of my Mahler recordings a few years back when I found Gielen and Bertini to be my favorites... but I yearn for diversity.  And as Sarge said, if you don't have these recordings, this is a good box. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 09, 2010, 07:50:33 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2010, 01:22:31 AM
Should the People's Box figure into my "first Mahler cycle" shopping considerations? It is at pretty much exactly the same price as Bertini and Tennstedt. Currently my guess is Bertini makes the best intro...?
I'm with Sarge & Jens, Brian.  Bertini is solid throughout but seldom inspiring in the way that, say, Bernstein's WP 5th moves me.  It's a fine "beginners can't go wrong" first cycle due to its uniform quality and vision at a great price.  But if price weren't an issue, I'd recommend Kubelik instead, or maybe even Boulez (!).  However, the "People's Box" is a fine offering, with half the selections among the best choices available and the rest still quite good. (Perhaps Karajan's 4th is the exception.  I've not heard it in years, but a roommate had it on LP back in the '70s and I liked it then.  But good 4ths abound and Szell's has long been at bargain basement prices.)

Re. Sarge's point about how deep you might get into Mahler:  I suspect the best performances in the People's Box are more likely to intoxicate you with Mahler fever, but also more likely to satisfy you enough to feel less need for supplementary recordings.

Either way you can't go wrong!  (Oh, and if you go the PB route, Klemperer's DLVDE is a great choice to fill that hole!)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 09, 2010, 08:29:39 AM
To reinterate:

QuoteCD1 Symphony no. 1: Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra / KUBELIK
CD 2 Symphony no. 2 "Resurrection": Wiener Philharmoniker / MEHTA
CD 3 – 4 Symphony no. 3: Berliner Philharmoniker / ABBADO
CD 5 Symphony no. 4: Berliner Philharmoniker / KARAJAN
CD 6 Symphony no. 5: Wiener Philharmoniker / BERNSTEIN
CD 7 – 8 Symphony no. 6: Wiener Philharmoniker / BERNSTEIN
CD 9 Symphony no. 7: Berliner Philharmoniker / ABBADO
CD 10 Symphony no. 8: Chicago Symphony Orchestra / SOLTI
CD 11 – 12 Symphony no. 9: Chicago Symphony Orchestra / GIULINI
CD 13 Symphony no. 10: Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin / CHAILLY

I'm disappointed that the recordings are all rather standard choices, but I can't dispute the quality, generally.  My main quibble is that Karajan really did some wonderful Mahler and the one that ended up in here is my least favorite.  I think his 5  is splendid, but perhaps Bernstein's 5 can reasonably supersede it because it is the epitome of Bersteinian excess.  If I could change the list, I would have put in the Haitink/Ameling 4 (there really should be some Haitink) and given Karajan the 6th.  Karajan's slow movement in that recording is really a thing apart, and the opening movement, although lacking the Soltian savagery that some prefer, has a brooding, menacing quality that serves the music perfectly.

But I think Universal missed an opportunity.  They could have anticipated that the peoples edition would turn out to be mostly standard stuff, so they should have made their self-picked set more out-of-the-ordinary.  Maybe a "Rebirth of Mahler" set in which they collect all of the early recordings on Decca/Philips/DG.   (There must be some van Beinem, and similar stuff, in the can, no?)  Then they'd have a set for newbies and a set for fanatics.  Now they have two newbie sets.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 09, 2010, 08:40:36 AM
I'm surprised to see that Mehta is on the list which is Decca and not DG.  Have they merged?  I guess so.

Isn't Haitink on the Philips label Scarpia?  How could it be in that cycle if it belongs to a different company?  I don't see anything on the list that is not dg/decca.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 09, 2010, 09:14:56 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 09, 2010, 08:40:36 AM
I'm surprised to see that Mehta is on the list which is Decca and not DG.  Have they merged?  I guess so.

Isn't Haitink on the Philips label Scarpia?  How could it be in that cycle if it belongs to a different company?  I don't see anything on the list that is not dg/decca.

Polygram, the parent of DG, took over Decca and Philips in the 70's.  Now they're called "Universal" I believe.  It is only recently that they have decided that they don't have to keep the catalogs strictly separate.  As of a few years ago Universal no longer has the right to publish Philips recordings under the Philips trademark, and they are called Decca now.  For years Decca and Philips have not had independent offices, they are just a trademark for DG.

The people's choice contest had several Philips options, but none made it, although three Decca recordings made it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 09, 2010, 09:17:21 AM
Oh I see, I keep forgetting how much merging happened.
Title: Is Too Much Mahler Possible?
Post by: Cato on October 13, 2010, 05:56:28 PM
The Wall Street Journal recently carried an article by A.J. Goldman entitled Can There Be Too Much Mahler?

An excerpt:

"Great music never suffers at all from being performed beautifully, but just performing a composer more than he had been performed before can actually be a negative," Mr. Maazel explained backstage after the Duisburg concert. "There is nothing that turns people off more than a mediocre performance," he noted, "so managers and presenters have to be extremely careful that the music they wish to honor is being performed by people who are worthy of the task.

"Henry-Louis de La Grange, author of a monumental four-volume Mahler biography, strongly disagreed with these sentiments. "I think it couldn't possibly hurt to hear a lot of Mahler. After so much neglect, he deserves it. And I think it will help many people to understand Mahler even better," said Mr. de La Grange, 86, speaking by telephone from his home in Paris.

Today we know Mahler as the German-Jewish composer who, straddling the Romantic and Modern eras, produced a powerful and idiosyncratic body of work. But it is easy to forget just how new his popularity is. Not so long ago, a complete Mahler cycle was a once-in-a-lifetime event. Now, the excitement generated by Mahler's symphonies is attested to not only by the recent spate of concerts and the ever-growing catalog of recordings, but also by numerous recent appreciations from musicians and critics.

Much of his appeal seems to derive from the personal connection that people form to his music, but Mr. Maazel contends that rapturous devotion is out of place. "I'm not a Mahler fanatic. I just happen to love great music, and much of what he wrote is of the highest quality. Those who listen uncritically because they are fanatically involved are again doing a disservice to the music. . . . Not every note that he wrote—and this is true of any composer—is of the same quality."

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703720504575377163595791790.html?KEYWORDS=MAhler#articleTabs_comments (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703720504575377163595791790.html?KEYWORDS=MAhler#articleTabs_comments)

I agree with de La Grange: too much Mahler is not a problem!   :D :D  8)
Title: Re: Is Too Much Mahler Possible?
Post by: Scarpia on October 13, 2010, 05:59:45 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 13, 2010, 05:56:28 PM
The Wall Street Journal recently carried an article by A.J. Goldman entitled Can There Be Too Much Mahler?

An excerpt:

"Great music never suffers at all from being performed beautifully, but just performing a composer more than he had been performed before can actually be a negative," Mr. Maazel explained backstage after the Duisburg concert. "There is nothing that turns people off more than a mediocre performance," he noted, "so managers and presenters have to be extremely careful that the music they wish to honor is being performed by people who are worthy of the task.

"Henry-Louis de La Grange, author of a monumental four-volume Mahler biography, strongly disagreed with these sentiments. "I think it couldn't possibly hurt to hear a lot of Mahler. After so much neglect, he deserves it. And I think it will help many people to understand Mahler even better," said Mr. de La Grange, 86, speaking by telephone from his home in Paris.

Today we know Mahler as the German-Jewish composer who, straddling the Romantic and Modern eras, produced a powerful and idiosyncratic body of work. But it is easy to forget just how new his popularity is. Not so long ago, a complete Mahler cycle was a once-in-a-lifetime event. Now, the excitement generated by Mahler's symphonies is attested to not only by the recent spate of concerts and the ever-growing catalog of recordings, but also by numerous recent appreciations from musicians and critics.

Much of his appeal seems to derive from the personal connection that people form to his music, but Mr. Maazel contends that rapturous devotion is out of place. "I'm not a Mahler fanatic. I just happen to love great music, and much of what he wrote is of the highest quality. Those who listen uncritically because they are fanatically involved are again doing a disservice to the music. . . . Not every note that he wrote—and this is true of any composer—is of the same quality."

See:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703720504575377163595791790.html?KEYWORDS=MAhler#articleTabs_comments (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703720504575377163595791790.html?KEYWORDS=MAhler#articleTabs_comments)

I agree with de La Grange: too much Mahler is not a problem!   :D :D  8)

That there could be too much of any composer seems like a silly assertion, since anyone fed up with Mahler, or any other composer, could simply decided not to attend.  Concerns that too much of composer A results in not enough of composer B makes more sense.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:03:31 PM
Until any composer gets as much air time as say the snot-nosed Justin Bieber I don't think there is a thing as too much air time for any composer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 13, 2010, 06:07:34 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:03:31 PM
Until any composer gets as much air time as say the snot-nosed Justin Bieber I don't think there is a thing as too much air time for any composer.
My radio alarm clock once woke me up to the tune "Baaaaby... Ohhhh Baaaabyyyyy." It was one of the worst experiences in my life.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:12:40 PM
If you haven't seen this check out Key of Awesome parody Greg-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_cGo0q7krk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_cGo0q7krk) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 13, 2010, 06:30:37 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:12:40 PM
If you haven't seen this check out Key of Awesome parody Greg-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_cGo0q7krk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_cGo0q7krk) ;D ;D
Haha. Nice!  :D



I still don't know what you call this... suspension seems the closest, though not quite it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_(music)#Escape_tone

Mahler once claimed "a Mahler 8th note is different from everyone else's 8th notes," and I know exactly what he's talking about. It's what he uses all the time- for example a C maj chord being held while the notes D (suspension) and then C (resolution) are being played, or, more strikingly, F maj while B to A as the line.

I still can't find the name for it... there has to be a name to describe this!  :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on October 16, 2010, 03:53:03 PM
Tonight the BSO are playing Harbison's Third Symphony, and Mahler's Fifth (in that order).

The concert begins at 20:00 (Eastern), that is, in somewhat less than ten minutes. And will live stream here (http://www.wgbh.org/995/).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 16, 2010, 04:03:36 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2010, 03:53:03 PM
Tonight the BSO are playing Harbison's Third Symphony, and Mahler's Fifth (in that order).

The concert begins at 20:00 (Eastern), that is, in somewhat less than ten minutes. And will live stream here (http://www.wgbh.org/995/).

Awesome! Just saw this and am looking forward to both.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on October 16, 2010, 05:17:59 PM
I'm late to it, as we dined late. But I've got Mahler up now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 16, 2010, 05:37:09 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2010, 05:17:59 PM
I'm late to it, as we dined late. But I've got Mahler up now.
Man, the 3rd movement is on and I'm probably just going to turn it off. One of the most lifeless performances I've heard.  :-\

The Harbison was pretty fun. Very interesting atmospheric moments.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on October 16, 2010, 05:37:57 PM
Quote from: Greg on October 16, 2010, 05:37:09 PM
Man, the 3rd movement is on and I'm probably just going to turn it off. One of the most lifeless performances I've heard.  :-\

Really?  I've been liking this.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on October 16, 2010, 05:43:09 PM
I am puzzled; this waltz-ish part strikes me as absolutely vigorous!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2010, 05:49:49 PM
Hearing any Mahler symphony live is a treat, having heard the 5th and 6th already.  I am kicking myself now for having missed the WSO opening concert of the season, which featured Mahler's 1st.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on October 16, 2010, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2010, 05:49:49 PM
Hearing any Mahler symphony live is a treat, having heard the 5th and 6th already.  I am kicking myself now for having missed the WSO opening concert of the season, which featured Mahler's 1st.

You can still catch most of the Adagietto fourth movement and on, Ray.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on October 16, 2010, 06:15:58 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2010, 05:43:09 PM
I am puzzled; this waltz-ish part strikes me as absolutely vigorous!
Well, it got pretty lively there in the 3rd movement. The Adagietto (I missed more than the first half of it)... whoa... nearly every version I've heard is too slow, and this one of the slowest I've heard. Ugh. The 5th movement was pretty good, though.


Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2010, 05:49:49 PM
Hearing any Mahler symphony live is a treat, having heard the 5th and 6th already.  I am kicking myself now for having missed the WSO opening concert of the season, which featured Mahler's 1st.
I missed the Resurrection being performed in Orlando, but I doubt there was much to miss...  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2010, 06:21:02 PM
Quote from: Greg on October 16, 2010, 06:15:58 PM
Well, it got pretty lively there in the 3rd movement. The Adagietto (I missed more than the first half of it)... whoa... nearly every version I've heard is too slow, and this one of the slowest I've heard. Ugh. The 5th movement was pretty good, though.

I missed the Resurrection being performed in Orlando, but I doubt there was much to miss...  ::)

I enjoyed the 5th movement a lot tonight, Karl & Greg!  The Adagietto seemed a little slow to me as well, more of a Lentetto or Larghetto.  ;D :P

I can't wait to hear live someday the 2nd, 3rd, 9th and now the 7th (which I'm really starting to dig now, because of, its enigmatic nature).

Perhaps.....even one day, I may even yearn to hear the Symphony of a Thousand Headaches.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on October 16, 2010, 06:42:46 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2010, 06:21:02 PM
I enjoyed the 5th movement a lot tonight, Karl & Greg!  The Adagietto seemed a little slow to me as well, more of a Lentetto or Larghetto.  ;D :P

Jimmy does tend to broader tempi these days; I thought that he and the band held it together wonderfully, though. I was gripped.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 16, 2010, 07:20:51 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 16, 2010, 06:42:46 PM
Jimmy does tend to broader tempi these days; I thought that he and the band held it together wonderfully, though. I was gripped.
Perhaps, then, you'll be in the market for:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417HC8X8YPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 16, 2010, 10:35:49 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2010, 06:21:02 PM


Perhaps.....even one day, I may even yearn to hear the Symphony of a Thousand Headaches.  ;)

...hearing it tonight, actually... with Christian Thielemann. :-)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 05, 2010, 09:46:55 AM


Ionarts-at-Large: Mahler's Eighth Under Christian Thielemann

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/ionarts-at-large-mahlers-eighth-under.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/ionarts-at-large-mahlers-eighth-under.html)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TNQwDBEJx7I/AAAAAAAABT8/A0_dHA_6tEY/s400/MPhil_058_graphics+Kopie.png)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 05, 2010, 02:55:23 PM
I received the People's Edition today.  The liner notes would make a good coffee table book if bigger because it looks so neat and includes:

(1) chronology of Mahler's life
(2) with quotes from Mahler
(3) with quotes about Mahler
(4) nice photos of each conductor featured in the set
(5) the list everyone who voted for the survey, which I noticed included Jed Distler and our own Jens.

I'm going to have a great time listening to this set, these recordings must be blasted on the hifi. 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 05, 2010, 06:53:30 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 05, 2010, 02:55:23 PM
I received the People's Edition today.  The liner notes would make a good coffee table book if bigger because it looks so neat and includes:

(5) the list everyone who voted for the survey, which I noticed included Jed Distler and our own Jens.


WTF? I thought I used a pseudonym.  (Since the edition *totally* didn't turn out the way I wanted it to...  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 05, 2010, 07:06:00 PM
Your cat probably changed it back to your real name when you weren't looking. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on November 16, 2010, 05:43:09 AM
Over the weekend I picked up a Chicago Symphony broadcast concert of Mahler's Seventh Symphony conducted by Pierre Boulez.

Quite frankly, I was stunned and even awed: I have his DGG recording of the work with The Cleveland Orchestra, but have never had the chance to "crank it up" properly, so perhaps I will find the same experience there.

But hearing this Chicago performance in my car (just a 10-year old Malibu  :D  with the usual small speakers (4 of them)) became ever more incredible.  Part of the experience was due to the position of the microphones in the orchestra: I felt like I was sitting among the musicians at times.

But the Boulez touch!!!  The work had a Kammermusik clarity which I had never experienced before: every instrument was heard, especially in the Second Movement: even the contrabasses were distinctive, and one knew exactly that everything they had to "say" was very important.  (Toledobass Allan will be glad to read that!)

And because of this clarity, one could detect links to a Schoenbergian/Webernian future, again especially in the second movement.

If you can find this performance available anywhere on the Internet, I will guarantee that you will not regret spending the time listening to it, no matter how often you have heard the Seventh, or if you think (like Bruno Walter) that it is somehow "weak."  If the latter is your opinion, I suspect you will change it, after hearing this.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 16, 2010, 05:57:13 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 16, 2010, 05:43:09 AM
Over the weekend I picked up a Chicago Symphony broadcast concert of Mahler's Seventh Symphony conducted by Pierre Boulez.

I'm looking forward to it being issued on CSO Resound. And I'm looking forward to hearing Boulez in the same work in Amsterdam in January.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on November 16, 2010, 06:22:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 16, 2010, 05:57:13 AM
I'm looking forward to it being issued on CSO Resound. And I'm looking forward to hearing Boulez in the same work in Amsterdam in January.

CSO Resound: I will need to look into that!  Normally I do not buy multiple recordings of any work, but this time could be an exception.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on November 16, 2010, 06:56:04 AM
Sweet! Somehow, I find that I own three copies of the Mahler Seventh . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on November 16, 2010, 07:12:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2010, 06:56:04 AM
Sweet! Somehow, I find that I own three copies of the Mahler Seventh . . . .

Wow!  Which ones?

Another footnote on this topic: Bruno Walter, as far as I know, besides opining that the Seventh was "weak," never recorded it.

He did, however, love the Fourth Movement quite a bit.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on November 16, 2010, 07:14:39 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 16, 2010, 07:12:31 AM
Wow!  Which ones?

CSO with Abbado
LSO with Tilson Thomas
Staatskapelle Berlin with Barenboim
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on November 16, 2010, 07:23:05 AM
I've never heard Abbado or Barenboim, but Tilson Thomas I found disappointing (though that was only one listen, a few years ago). I would consider Gielen the best, with Solti as a close second.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 16, 2010, 07:54:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2010, 07:14:39 AM


Staatskapelle Berlin with Barenboim[/font]

My favorite first movement, that interpretation. Awesome...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nLIjRzZuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
G. Mahler
Symphony No.7
Barenboim, Staatskapelle
Warner (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EGDMSC?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000EGDMSC)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on November 16, 2010, 07:57:19 AM
The 7th is fast becoming my favorite Mahler to listen to at the moment. THe Gielen sounds interesting, especially since my only LIVE experience with the work, and the one performance that changed my feeling towards the work, was Gielen, guest conducting the LA Phil. Maybe I should get that one eventually. At the moment, the Boulez and the Tennstedt LIVE would do.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 19, 2010, 03:01:36 AM


Side Notes: Mahler on Vinyl
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/side-notes-mahler-on-vinyl.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/side-notes-mahler-on-vinyl.html)

MTT on 22 LPs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 05:58:20 AM
Why do you say that MTT is the first American Mahler cycle as if Bernstein's first cycle never existed? ???

Anyway you should have talked more about those bad ass liner notes! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on November 19, 2010, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 05:58:20 AM
Why do you say that MTT is the first American Mahler cycle as if Bernstein's first cycle never existed? ???

Anyway you should have talked more about those bad ass liner notes! :)

The Bernstein cycle was not an all-American cycle.  The 8th was recorded in England in the LSO and various British choruses, while DLvdE was recorded in Tel Aviv with the Israel Philharmonic.

Meanwhile on another front,  Rattle's at it again.  Received an EMI email yesterday announcing this

Gustav Mahler's epic Symphony No. 2 'Resurrection' with Simon Rattle and the Berliner Philharmoniker, the Rundfunkchor Berlin and star soloists Kate Royal and Magdalena Kožená, recorded in concert at Berlin's Philharmonie in late October 2010, is now digitally available as an iTunes exclusive digital pre-release. The physical CD will follow in March
2011.


(http://emr.emi.com/AEM/Clients/EMI002/2010/11/18/1734/images/featuredmahler.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on November 19, 2010, 07:47:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 19, 2010, 03:01:36 AM


Side Notes: Mahler on Vinyl
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/side-notes-mahler-on-vinyl.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/side-notes-mahler-on-vinyl.html)

MTT on 22 LPs.

I'm holding out for the 8-track tape edition. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on November 19, 2010, 07:45:13 AM
The Bernstein cycle was not an all-American cycle.  The 8th was recorded in England in the LSO and various British choruses, while DLvdE was recorded in Tel Aviv with the Israel Philharmonic.

Well dlvde is not a symphony, but I forgot about the 8th.  Anyway I don't think I've ever seen the MTT cycle sold that way since there are several American recordings for each symphony, it's not exactly ground breaking to be the first completely American cycle, while the Bernstein cycle is of historical interest.  MTT doesn't really have any historical significance.  Alright what Jens has said is technically true but misleading.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on November 19, 2010, 08:28:56 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
Well dlvde is not a symphony, but I forgot about the 8th.  Anyway I don't think I've ever seen the MTT cycle sold that way since there are several American recordings for each symphony, it's not exactly ground breaking to be the first American cycle.  It doesn't really have any historical significance.  Alright what Jens has said is technically true but misleading.

I believe Mahler had originally designated DSVDE as symphony No 9, but changed the title due to superstition over composers supposedly dying after their 9th symphony.   After that he composed his 10th symphony, which he called Number 9, and died.  It's like those "final destination" horror movies where you can't escape death.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 08:34:26 AM
I've heard that before, but it hard to celebrate myth and fact with all of these hammer blows of fate and the 9th since there is an element of truth to them.  What really matters is that when you consider different Mahler symphony box sets, dldve is clearly considered optional.  It is included in some and left out in others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 09:24:34 AM
I'm sorry, I'm just taking exception to one sentence because I'm cranky today due to lack of sleep.  It is a good article Jens, you managed to explain the whole lp resurgence thing without being offensive to either part (pro and anti vinyl). :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on November 19, 2010, 09:28:43 AM
Well, if people would be honest with themselves, we have the basis for a whole new field.  CDs of lp playback.  I certainly recognize that LPs have their own unique sound which is pleasant in a way.  But I find it crazy to claim this is because something is "lost" in the transfer to CD.  When I transfer one of my LPs to digital audio and listen to it on my CD player that "LP sound" is still there, which would indicate that if there is anything missing from the CD it is because the LP adds something to the pristine signal. 

In any case, for people who like LPs, a CD or SACD of playback of an LP would be heaven.  That nice sound, and no worries about a bit of dust on the stylus.

And, actually in the early days of CD I got a "musicfest" CD from DG which I can swear was made from playback of an LP.  All I can say is they had a much better turntable than I did.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on November 19, 2010, 10:00:49 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 16, 2010, 05:43:09 AM
Over the weekend I picked up a Chicago Symphony broadcast concert of Mahler's Seventh Symphony conducted by Pierre Boulez.

But the Boulez touch!!!  The work had a Kammermusik clarity which I had never experienced before: every instrument was heard, especially in the Second Movement: even the contrabasses were distinctive, and one knew exactly that everything they had to "say" was very important.  (Toledobass Allan will be glad to read that!)

And because of this clarity, one could detect links to a Schoenbergian/Webernian future, again especially in the second movement.

If you can find this performance available anywhere on the Internet, I will guarantee that you will not regret spending the time listening to it, no matter how often you have heard the Seventh, or if you think (like Bruno Walter) that it is somehow "weak."  If the latter is your opinion, I suspect you will change it, after hearing this.
You got what's great about Boulez in Mahler (and most everything else).  The performance was broadcast via Great Performances on PBS and is on their website here: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episodes/chicago-symphony-orchestra-pierre-boulez-conducts-mahler%E2%80%99s-7th/watch-the-full-concert/1038/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on November 19, 2010, 07:05:20 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 08:34:26 AM
I've heard that before, but it hard to celebrate myth and fact with all of these hammer blows of fate and the 9th since there is an element of truth to them.  What really matters is that when you consider different Mahler symphony box sets, dldve is clearly considered optional.  It is included in some and left out in others.

DLvdE is included in the Bernstein I box issued last year. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 20, 2010, 03:25:31 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on November 19, 2010, 07:45:13 AM
The Bernstein cycle was not an all-American cycle.

True, but the first recorded Mahler cycle was a "wholly" American one: Abravanel's with the Utah Symphony. I think most if not all his soloists were American too. Maybe Jens doesn't consider Abravanel to be an American since he wasn't born in the USA. But he was a U.S. citizen by the time he recorded the cycle.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 20, 2010, 06:13:17 AM
Sarge, I was going to mention Abravanel but I just didn't know if it was complete.  His recordings had enough merit to make the cut for Duggan's survey but not enough to completely remain in print. :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 20, 2010, 10:02:49 AM
Quote from: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 05:58:20 AM
Why do you say that MTT is the first American Mahler cycle as if Bernstein's first cycle never existed? ???


London. That's why. I see kishnevi already explained. And Sarge answered his own Abravanel question. And Das Lied von der Erde is most certainly one of the Symphonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on November 20, 2010, 11:21:35 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 20, 2010, 10:02:49 AM
[Das Lied von der Erde is most certainly one of the Symphonies.
Die Beste!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jared on November 20, 2010, 11:28:33 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on November 20, 2010, 11:21:35 AM
Die Beste!

^^^ David!   This is where you hang out these days... I hope you are keeping well...  8)

I have been playing 'Das Lied' quite a bit this summer, and would certainly equate it with a Symphony in it's breadth of scope..

anyway, I have mainly been enjoying the original:

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Late%20Romantic/41YSTJSX9YL__SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on November 20, 2010, 01:10:04 PM
Hey, Jared--welcome to GMG! 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 22, 2010, 04:40:19 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 16, 2010, 07:57:19 AM
The 7th is fast becoming my favorite Mahler to listen to at the moment. THe Gielen sounds interesting, especially since my only LIVE experience with the work, and the one performance that changed my feeling towards the work, was Gielen, guest conducting the LA Phil. Maybe I should get that one eventually. At the moment, the Boulez and the Tennstedt LIVE would do.
Do you know, in recent months, I keep returning to this symphony lately. I have Kondrashin (got for a steal) and Bertini. It's the Kondrashin that really hooked me and is the one I keep listening to.  Both are good, but I was thinking that I would get a more modern version in glorious sound. So I was focusing on the CSO/Abbado version or NYPO/Bernstein/Sony version. My question is - are the sonics good enough? The online clips make the Bernstein sound like they were conducted in a bathtub. The Abbado sound better, but listening to clips of Mahler like this is impossible. So not really seeing much complaint about the Bernstein sound, I was wondering how much of a difference I would really notice.

I know you will tell me to get both, but let's assume only one is in the budget. Which would you pick (keeping in mind what I already have)?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on November 22, 2010, 04:46:14 AM
Welcome, Jared!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on November 22, 2010, 06:08:50 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 22, 2010, 04:40:19 AMThe online clips make the Bernstein sound like they were conducted in a bathtub. The Abbado sound better, but listening to clips of Mahler like this is impossible. So not really seeing much complaint about the Bernstein sound, I was wondering how much of a difference I would really notice.

The Sony Berstein cycle has appalling sound.  I had the second to last attempt to remaster it.  There are claims that the last attempt "fixes" it but you can't put back what isn't there to begin with.  (I suspect it is like Windows 7 vs Vista.  If you want a better experience, you get a Mac.)  In Mahler that is a big problem.  In the glorious sound catagory Chailly and MTT come to mind.  (I have not heard the 7th yet in either cycle, but other symphonies in those cycles are splendid.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on November 22, 2010, 06:19:12 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on November 22, 2010, 04:40:19 AM
Do you know, in recent months, I keep returning to this symphony lately. I have Kondrashin (got for a steal) and Bertini. It's the Kondrashin that really hooked me and is the one I keep listening to.  Both are good, but I was thinking that I would get a more modern version in glorious sound. So I was focusing on the CSO/Abbado version or NYPO/Bernstein/Sony version. My question is - are the sonics good enough? The online clips make the Bernstein sound like they were conducted in a bathtub. The Abbado sound better, but listening to clips of Mahler like this is impossible. So not really seeing much complaint about the Bernstein sound, I was wondering how much of a difference I would really notice.

I know you will tell me to get both, but let's assume only one is in the budget. Which would you pick (keeping in mind what I already have)?

For me, the Abbado takes the nod because of the sound quality at least. I also think it's the better performance.

I guess I should look to get the Kondrashin.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on November 22, 2010, 07:50:10 PM
Quote from: springrite on November 22, 2010, 06:19:12 AM
For me, the Abbado takes the nod because of the sound quality at least. I also think it's the better performance.

I guess I should look to get the Kondrashin.

I would point to  Abbado/Berlin not just for the sound but as my overall favorite recording of this symphony.  The MTT recording has just as good sound, but I rate it slightly less--Abbado catches the inner movements a shade or two better.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 22, 2010, 11:56:51 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on November 22, 2010, 07:50:10 PM
I would point to  Abbado/Berlin not just for the sound but as my overall favorite recording of this symphony.  The MTT recording has just as good sound, but I rate it slightly less--Abbado catches the inner movements a shade or two better.

Abbado-Berlin is where it's at, for the Nachtmusik. (MTT, although I expected something great precisely in that symphony from him, was a letdown; one of the few in the otherwise fine MTT/SFSO cycle.)

But don't not consider Boulez (best finale; alongside the otherwise perversely long Klemperer) and Barenboim, with the most intriguing first movement. (And no, I haven't a favorite for the very middle movement, though I suppose I'll take the Abbado/Berlin one along with the other middle movements.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: RJR on December 05, 2010, 06:41:22 AM
To Isolde,

If you are curious to know what Mahler would have written if he had not died so young then listen to a recording of his 10th Symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: RJR on December 05, 2010, 06:57:41 AM
There are several other composers who recorded some of their works on the Welte-Mignon piano rolls:

Debussy, Ravel, Grieg and several others. What a treat!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on December 12, 2010, 04:28:01 PM
Here's a random question.

Is there any else out there absolutely confused as to why the 7th is subtitled "Song of the Night"? To me it expresses "morning" or "early afternoon" more than almost any other music I've heard (probably only the beginning of the first symphony expresses "morning" more clearly).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on December 12, 2010, 08:48:17 PM
Quote from: Greg on December 12, 2010, 04:28:01 PM
Here's a random question.

Is there any else out there absolutely confused as to why the 7th is subtitled "Song of the Night"? To me it expresses "morning" or "early afternoon" more than almost any other music I've heard (probably only the beginning of the first symphony expresses "morning" more clearly).

I think there's a statement by Mahler that refers to a connection with the night--s sort of journey that ends with the dawn  (so you're partly correct).  Plus of course the fact that two of the inner movements are titled "Nachtmusik" suggests that Mahler was not thinking of daylight hours :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 17, 2010, 01:54:46 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on December 12, 2010, 08:48:17 PM
I think there's a statement by Mahler that refers to a connection with the night--s sort of journey that ends with the dawn  (so you're partly correct).  Plus of course the fact that two of the inner movements are titled "Nachtmusik" suggests that Mahler was not thinking of daylight hours :)

About that:
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1351 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1351)


BRSO - M3 - Jansons
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/ionarts-at-large-mariss-jansons-in.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/ionarts-at-large-mariss-jansons-in.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on January 07, 2011, 03:56:13 PM
How is Rafael Kubelik and the Bavarian Radio Symphony with Mahler 1?  How about Solti and the LSO?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2011, 04:12:52 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 07, 2011, 03:56:13 PM
How is Rafael Kubelik and the Bavarian Radio Symphony with Mahler 1?  How about Solti and the LSO?


Solti's account with the CSO is very good, but I have not heard his earlier LSO recording. Kubelik's recording, however, with the BRSO is excellent. I've heard it several times.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: greg on January 07, 2011, 04:44:47 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 07, 2011, 03:56:13 PM
How is Rafael Kubelik and the Bavarian Radio Symphony with Mahler 1?  How about Solti and the LSO?
Kubelik is known to have one of the best Mahler 1sts ever... it's hard for me to have a strong opinion on any recording of this symphony, though I remember liking both.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on January 07, 2011, 05:02:31 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 07, 2011, 03:56:13 PM
How is Rafael Kubelik and the Bavarian Radio Symphony with Mahler 1?  How about Solti and the LSO?

Kubelik is a favorite of mine, although in these works state of the art audio engineering is a big plus.  Regarding the Solti, I tend to prefer his LSO recordings to the later CSO recordings.  That applies to the other recordings, 2, 3 and 9.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 07, 2011, 05:38:24 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 07, 2011, 03:56:13 PM
How is Rafael Kubelik and the Bavarian Radio Symphony with Mahler 1?  How about Solti and the LSO?

Kubelik is widely, if not universally, regarded as having providing "the" M1 with the DG / BRSO recording you presumably refer to. Though it should be noted that the audite live recording (also BRSO; same venue) that came a little later is yet again an improvement--including sonically.

I'm not keen on almost any of Solti's Mahler (although I have been semi-converted to his Sixth by Sarge) and that solidly extends to the LSO 1st.

FYI: M1 Survey, WETA
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gustav_Mahler_1_2.png)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1000 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1000)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1037 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1037)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on January 07, 2011, 05:46:52 PM
Thanks, folks and thank you for the WETA link!  This was the one I am considering, and it seems to line up nicely with what you are saying here:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/37/378762.JPG)

The only wrinkle is that I am considering it on new vinyl, but the engineering should be excellent.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2011, 08:48:04 PM
Quote from: Bogey on January 07, 2011, 05:46:52 PM
Thanks, folks and thank you for the WETA link!  This was the one I am considering, and it seems to line up nicely with what you are saying here:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/37/378762.JPG)

The only wrinkle is that I am considering it on new vinyl, but the engineering should be excellent.


What about this DG remastered version, which I'm sure is cheap:


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EJV0XJ2GL.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on January 07, 2011, 09:00:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2011, 08:48:04 PM

What about this DG remastered version, which I'm sure is cheap:


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EJV0XJ2GL.jpg)

Not the same recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2011, 09:15:34 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 07, 2011, 09:00:50 PM
Not the same recording.


Oh, okay, I just read about it. The one he has pictured is a live recording from the late '70s. Very cool. I'd like to hear it myself.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on January 08, 2011, 05:42:34 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2011, 09:15:34 PM

Oh, okay, I just read about it. The one he has pictured is a live recording from the late '70s. Very cool. I'd like to hear it myself.

As Jens pointed out in his link, you can get the cd for about 12 bones:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TQUC/weta909-20
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 22, 2011, 04:47:46 PM


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TTt-1qC-XgI/AAAAAAAABaY/asybxGTdT1w/s400/MPHIL_ESCHENBACH_MAHLER9.png)


Ionarts-at-Large: Eschenbach in Munich

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/ionarts-at-large-eschenbach-in-munich.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/ionarts-at-large-eschenbach-in-munich.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 23, 2011, 10:44:05 AM
I have just found this on Youtube


Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
Lorraine Hunt Lieberson and David Rendall join Edo de Waart and the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra in this live performance of Mahler's great work. Utrecht, 1999.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZW-U0CPjts

The complete performance has been uploaded on one 'track' lasting 65 minutes. I will not get a chance to hear this for a few days, but I was surprised to find such a long track. The same member uploaded Elgar's 'Music Makers' complete at around half an hour and the sound quality is very good.

Mike

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on January 23, 2011, 10:47:03 AM
Muy fantastiche!  Thanks, Mike!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 23, 2011, 10:51:41 AM
David, I am about to go out, but started it off, but beyond bizarre....it starts with the final song!

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 25, 2011, 09:54:01 AM

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TT8Yry3NvOI/AAAAAAAABaw/ch9uerd796s/s400/RCO_Boulez_M7.png)

Ionarts-at-Large: Boulez' Mahler in Amsterdam
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/ionarts-at-large-boulez-mahler-in.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/ionarts-at-large-boulez-mahler-in.html)


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TTt5YgVMdUI/AAAAAAAABaQ/cmyWb1NboPw/s400/CBSO_Nelsons_M1_Lugansky.png)

Ionarts-at-Large: Birmingham in Amsterdam
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/ionarts-at-large-birmingham-in.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/ionarts-at-large-birmingham-in.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on January 25, 2011, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: knight on January 23, 2011, 10:51:41 AM
David, I am about to go out, but started it off, but beyond bizarre....it starts with the final song!
Listening now, Mike.  Bizarre, indeed.  They labeled it right, but sho 'nuff, it's "Bye, y'all" and not "Bottoms up!"

Not one of Ms Hunt's best days, sorry to say.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on January 25, 2011, 12:31:19 PM
Quote from: knight on January 23, 2011, 10:44:05 AM
Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
Lorraine Hunt Lieberson and David Rendall join Edo de Waart and the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra in this live performance of Mahler's great work. Utrecht, 1999.

Someone elsewhere uploaded audio recording (in supposedly good stereo) in correct order of songs and including Adagio from 10th, which was the other piece on program for the night.

http://rapidshare.com/files/341429800/RFO990926.zip
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on February 05, 2011, 06:43:37 AM
Quote from: Drasko on January 25, 2011, 12:31:19 PM
Someone elsewhere uploaded audio recording (in supposedly good stereo) in correct order of songs and including Adagio from 10th, which was the other piece on program for the night.

http://rapidshare.com/files/341429800/RFO990926.zip

Thanks for the link.
Listened to the Adagio and the first two songs: rather good performances so far, IMHO. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on February 07, 2011, 11:59:49 AM
Mahler's "Insurrection" Symphony  ;D

Letter to Lorin Maazel (http://www.terryjohns.net/letters-lines-spaces/letter-to-lorin-mazel/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on February 07, 2011, 01:53:00 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 07, 2011, 11:59:49 AM
Mahler's "Insurrection" Symphony  ;D

Letter to Lorin Maazel (http://www.terryjohns.net/letters-lines-spaces/letter-to-lorin-mazel/)
Good one. Will save me the money of ever buying a single recording by Lorin Mazel ever again.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on February 07, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
Quote from: erato on February 07, 2011, 01:53:00 PM
Good one. Will save me the money of ever buying a single recording by Lorin Mazel ever again.

Now, one must separate the man from the music still. His old Vienna Sibelius cycle is quite a scorcher.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on February 07, 2011, 02:01:10 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 07, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
Now, one must separate the man from the music still. His old Vienna Sibelius cycle is quite a scorcher.
I already have it.  ;D

And while I tend to agree, I find it easier to do this separation of man and work after the man is dead, as in Reiner and Bøhm.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on February 16, 2011, 11:49:04 AM
I just finished listening to this one for the first time.

[asin]B00004SR4X[/asin]

Will the collective GMG-hood forgive me, if I say that in this case I prefer the studio DG version to this live iteration? Here is my problem: this is far and away the most virtuosic of Mahler's symphonies, and the BRSO of that time simply wasn't (yet) a top flight virtuoso orchestra. It's an inspired performance, no doubt, and it's amazing just how well Kubelik judges the pacing, and of course orchestral balances, of which he was an absolute master. But the first two movements have a few bothersomely raw moments, with all too noticeable wrong notes, as if the orchestra wasn't yet warmed up. The Scherzo also somehow doesn't want to congeal into a whole in this performance, not quite as well, at least, as on the studio version. The Adagietto is incredibly well judged, however, one of the finest. I have no complaints about the last movement either. But in the case of the first two especially, but also the third, the controlled studio environment produced the better musical results.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2011, 11:58:26 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 16, 2011, 11:49:04 AM
I just finished listening to this one for the first time.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004SR4X.01.L.jpg)
G. Mahler
Symphony No.5
Kubelik / BRSO
live, 1981
audite (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SR4X/nectarandambr-20)

Will the collective GMG-hood forgive me, if I say that in this case I prefer the studio DG version to this live iteration?

Oh, f_*# it. The DG is *much* preferable to this one, in my book. http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1218 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1218)
Not even the sound is notably better, if I recall correctly.


QuoteHere is my problem: this is far and away the most virtuosic of Mahler's symphonies, and the BRSO of that time simply wasn't (yet) a top flight virtuoso orchestra...

But your reasoning is, if I may be frank, bollocks. For starters, the BRSO has been a top flight virtuoso orchestra [considering the time and international competition then] even before Kubelik began work there.

Then you go on preferring the same orchestra in the DG version? Which was recorded a decade or two before this one? And a studio recording vs. a live recording? Individual mistakes get chalked up to the fact that this was a *real* live performance; no patching, no "studio live" conditions. Live then is different from "live" now.

And while I completely agree that Kubelik in this particular remake had lost much of the zip that made the earlier incarnation so, well... zippy and coolly exciting and excellent, it's just not sensible to blame it on the orchestra. They may not be a particularly emotional band, nor one with a particular 'sound', but they can play, alright. I know them better now, of course, than then, but precision and virtuosity (I prefer the word: agility) have always been their strong suits. Today they are among a handful orchestras (Cleveland, Berlin-under-Rattle come to mind) that exhibit that particular characteristic so powerfully.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on February 16, 2011, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 16, 2011, 11:58:26 AM
But your reasoning is, if I may be frank, bollocks. For starters, the BRSO has been a top flight virtuoso orchestra [considering the time and international competition then] even before Kubelik began work there.

Then you go on preferring the same orchestra in the DG version? Which was recorded a decade or two before this one? And a studio recording vs. a live recording? Individual mistakes get chalked up to the fact that this was a *real* live performance; no patching, no "studio live" conditions. Live then is different from "live" now.

And while I completely agree that Kubelik in this particular remake had lost much of the zip that made the earlier incarnation so, well... zippy and coolly exciting and excellent, it's just not sensible to blame it on the orchestra. They may not be a particularly emotional band, nor one with a particular 'sound', but they can play, alright. I know them better now, of course, than then, but precision and virtuosity (I prefer the word: agility) have always been their strong suits. Today they are among a handful orchestras (Cleveland, Berlin-under-Rattle come to mind) that exhibit that particular characteristic so powerfully.

Look, I adore Kubelik. He's hands down one of my very top favorite conductors. I have collected a ton if his BRSO recordings, and have quite a bit of Jochum's even older BRSO stuff, and am quite familiar with some of Jansons' and Maazel's work there, too. Yes, when Jochum created it, he had his pick of superb virtuosos for his first chairs. But that quality did not *at that time* extend through the depth of the rear of each section. In familiar repertoire they sounded great, especially when they had the benefit of studio edits. But put a more challenging, or not so frequently played piece (even if it's a Kubelik staple) before them, and the results are mediocre at best. E.g. I have a live Janacek Sinfonietta with Kubelik which is frankly hard to listen to on account of the really sketchy brass intonation and ensemble. Yes, today, they absolutely belong among the very top orchestras in the world, but they didn't in the 60s and 70s. Not by any stretch. If you compare to, e.g. the Cleveland and Berlin you mention, but I would also add Chicago and Concertgebouw, from all of whom historic broadcasts exist from throughout the past six decades at least, you hear much more disciplined orchestras who could maintain the same level of virtuosity live that they did in the studio, with nary a lapse to betray the live nature - and they maintained that quality throughout the decades! The BRSO today is brilliant, yes. But not back then.

PS: the two recordings are exactly ten years apart - DG 1971, Audite 1981.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 16, 2011, 12:38:37 PM
Quote from: Mensch on February 16, 2011, 12:11:28 PM
The BRSO today is brilliant, yes. But not back then.

"Back then"... all the way in 1981 they were "not by any stretch" a top orchestra? After 20 years of Kubelik? I tend to disagree. When did they suddenly get so good precise? Under Colin Davis and Lorin Maazel? [Skeptical look over the rims of my glasses.] It's in the very nature and their daily work that Radio Symphony Orchestras, if the level of player-talent is sufficient, are more accurate, disciplined, and spontaneous orchestras... and that was the business they had been in for 30 years at that point.

In any case it's odd that you should like the earlier recording but then suggest it's the crappy orchestra* (ten years later) that makes this Mahler 5th less satisfactory.

*rather than a bad day for the orchestra
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on February 16, 2011, 12:47:55 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 16, 2011, 12:38:37 PM
"Back then"... all the way in 1981 they were "not by any stretch" a top orchestra? After 20 years of Kubelik? I tend to disagree. When did they suddenly get so good precise? Under Colin Davis and Lorin Maazel? [Skeptical look over the rims of my glasses.] It's in the very nature and their daily work that Radio Symphony Orchestras, if the level of player-talent is sufficient, are more accurate, disciplined, and spontaneous orchestras... and that was the business they had been in for 30 years at that point.

I'd credit Maazel probably. I haven't followed them that closely to pinpoint the exact moment, but he is, for all his flaws, without doubt a fine and uncompromising orchestra builder. Every orchestra he directed improved appreciably technically under his leadership. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the one who whipped them into shape, but again I don't know that precisely.

Quote from: jlaurson on February 16, 2011, 12:38:37 PM
In any case it's odd that you should like the earlier recording but then suggest it's the crappy orchestra* (ten years later) that makes this Mahler 5th less satisfactory.

*rather than a bad day for the orchestra

You're misrepresenting my logic here. I prefer the studio performance not because of its earlier date, but because it is a controlled studio performance that benefited from judicious edits and patches. Compared to some other live performances I have (e.g. the aforementioned Janacek Sinfonietta), they aren't having all that bad of a day at all in the '81 Mahler 5. In the last two movements especially everything is going according to plan. It's just that when your other choices include Kubelik's studio recording, Chailly's RCO recording, the surprisingly amazing Barshai, and four excellent Mahler 5s from the CSO that made this piece its international calling card for the past four decades, then the lapses in the first two movements take this recording out of the running as a serious contender.

I have enough live broadcast performances, official and bootlegs, of the BRSO from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s to judge quite well that they were not completely solidly reliable in earlier decades and only became so in the last twenty years. Sorry if that offends you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2011, 02:15:20 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 16, 2011, 12:47:55 PM
You're misrepresenting my logic here. I prefer the studio performance not because of its earlier date, but because it is a controlled studio performance that benefited from judicious edits and patches...

I didn't try to misinterpret your logic. It just sounded like you liked one recording (DG), but not the other (Audite), because the orchestra was yet good enough.
What was missing--hence the confusion--was the part where you suggested that the orchestra wasn't (in your opinion) yet good enough for live performances (though good enough for studio performances, ten years earlier). Without being aware of that distinction, it sounded you loved one performance, but not another--because the orchestra was no good in general. Which would have been odd. Anyway... there's lots of early, completely live Mahler with the BRSO (the First with Kubelik, not the least of them), that suggests at the very least that they had their days. Listen to the live Berlin Phil Mahler from around that time and tell me, honestly, if that's any better.

Anyway, speaking of the BRSO in Mahler:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-D6AZsmppim0/TV27y32JQ8I/AAAAAAAABcw/1BldEwcTfZs/s400/BRSO_Haitink_Mahler.png)

Ionarts-at-Large: Mahler Seventh with Bernard Haitink

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/02/ionarts-at-large-mahler-seventh-with.html
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/02/ionarts-at-large-mahler-seventh-with.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on February 18, 2011, 07:25:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 18, 2011, 02:15:20 AM
I didn't try to misinterpret your logic. It just sounded like you liked one recording (DG), but not the other (Audite), because the orchestra was yet good enough.
What was missing--hence the confusion--was the part where you suggested that the orchestra wasn't (in your opinion) yet good enough for live performances (though good enough for studio performances, ten years earlier). Without being aware of that distinction, it sounded you loved one performance, but not another--because the orchestra was no good in general. Which would have been odd. Anyway... there's lots of early, completely live Mahler with the BRSO (the First with Kubelik, not the least of them), that suggests at the very least that they had their days. Listen to the live Berlin Phil Mahler from around that time and tell me, honestly, if that's any better.

It's peculiar that, given that I never spelled it out the way you misread it, you would choose to misread my argument in such an apparently self-contradictory and illogical fashion. If indeed I didn't express myself clearly, you could have at least asked me to clarify, before deeming my reasoning "bollocks". Can we try that approach next time?  ;)

Berlin was indeed technically inconsistent during certain phases in their history, though still considerably more consistent than BRSO. But it was you who brought them up as a comparison. I'd still argue Concertgebouw, CSO and Cleveland have been far more technically consistent over the course of their histories, as evidenced in live broadcasts over the past six decades at least.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2011, 08:52:56 AM
Quote from: Mensch on February 18, 2011, 07:25:48 AM
It's peculiar that, given that I never spelled it out the way you misread it...

QuoteWill the collective GMG-hood forgive me, if I say that in this case I prefer the studio DG version to this live iteration? Here is my problem: this is far and away the most virtuosic of Mahler's symphonies, and the BRSO of that time simply wasn't (yet) a top flight virtuoso orchestra.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on February 18, 2011, 09:06:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 18, 2011, 08:52:56 AM


Yes, which is why a studio version is not surprisingly better than the live version, even when there were ten years between the studio and live versions. As I said, I perhaps didn't spell things out for you, but the contradiction you perceived simply wasn't there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2011, 09:16:18 AM
You really think whether the BRSO was a virtuoso orchestra in 1969 is resolvable or worth arguing about?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2011, 09:24:52 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 18, 2011, 09:16:18 AM
You really think whether the BRSO was a virtuoso orchestra in 1969 is resolvable or worth arguing about?

I thought we were bickering about language, by now. Language is always worth arguing about.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on February 18, 2011, 09:58:29 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 18, 2011, 09:16:18 AM
You really think whether the BRSO was a virtuoso orchestra in 1969 is resolvable or worth arguing about?

I really didn't imagine that to be an even remotely controversial statement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 18, 2011, 11:32:35 AM
I'm about to put on MTT/SFS's recording of Mahler's 4th, one of my mostest favoritest symphonies.  To me it seems more whimsical and innocent rather than ironic and cynical, as well as more lyrical and less bombastic than many of his works.  I also love the chamber music-like clarity of the orchestration--it seems so respectful of all the voices and their contributions.

What I like in general about MTT's approach to Mahler is that he combines the clarity I like so much in Boulez and Abbado with a sensuousness that seems essential to the Maherian soundworld fashioned in fin-de-siecle Vienna.  It's been awhile since I've heard this particular recording--one of the first MTT/SFS Maher discs I acquired--and I recall being very favorably impressed by Laura Claycomb's Heavenly Life.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 25, 2011, 10:38:39 AM
Here is a top ten list of my favorite Mahler recordings from 2010. What are yours?

Mahler: Symphony No. 6
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
Mark Wigglesworth (Conductor)
Melbourne Symphony Orchestra (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TJY83gyJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Mark Wigglesworth's timings are just right, with tempo transitions and key passages phrased with nuance and elan, without losing the sense of urgency. I agree with a review from Amazon that describes this recording as "Disciplined and Passionate."

The Melbourne really shines, there's nothing I didn't enjoy in the execution. Details in the inner voices are very much appreciated.

Each movement seems to develop naturally from the next, as if caught in an inevitable progress. Wigglesworth has good sense not to rush the calmer, lyrical passages, such as the pastoral episodes in the faster movements. Somehow, he dwells on these passages without slowing down or holding up the urgent proceedings. The Andante doesn't sound dead in the water. There is a beautiful flowing consistancy, and doesn't feel like it takes forever to get to the finale.

While listening, I heard shades of Karajan, Sanderling, Boulez and Bertini, but Wigglesworth is definitely his own man, and I have to say, he shows that the M6 has a sensitive, gentle side too, without holding back on the climaxes. The stillness of the first trio in the scherzo is an excellant example of this effect.


Mahler: Symphony No. 9 [Hybrid SACD - DSD]
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
David Zinman (Conductor)
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B4QhTb9QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Zinman's M9 is simply a knock out.  It reminds me somewhat of Nott's recent account, but sounds like it was created on a bigger scale, or larger canvas.  Nott's is perhaps a little more personal in tone, but Zinman's interpretation is both personal, AND cosmic.

You can be rest assured about the climaxes...the sonics and orchestra are more than up to the challenge.  As a matter of fact, Zinman's orchestra is the one element that puts him slightly ahead of Nott.  Nott's M9 is like a sister to Zinman's account.  I like both, and both are of the highest standard in playing, tone, and drama for an M9 of the 21st Century.  I have a feeling you will be very impressed with the playing.

I still love the Rattle Berlin M9, but it can't compete in terms of sonics. Zinman, Nott, Oue, and Thomas are the creme of the crop in terms of sonics.

The third climax in the first movement may be the most impressive sonically, in terms of hearing all that is in the score here.  The rusticity of the minuet will make you smile, again, I have to mention how fine the orchestra is, especially in dynamics.

The blooming crescendos in the Rondo will surprise you. AND the final climax in the Adagio will blow your mind. The sonics are perhaps the best of the cycle. Matching and perhaps exceeding his M3, M6 and M8 recordings.

The tempos, again, are like Nott, meaning that Zinman is patient, and there is no unnecessary rushing during any of the climaxes, thank God.  I like how the climaxes in I. are not rushed.  The tempos are treated with thought, and care, during the transitions all over the score.  Energy is not wasted, and this brings huge dividends later as the score progresses movement to movement.

Mahler: Symphony 7 [Hybrid SACD - DSD]
Gustav Mahler (composer)
Residentie Orch the Hague (Orchestra),
Neemi Jarvi (Conducter)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51j7-4ZisrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Finally, I can hear the manic terror of the Nachtmusik movements and scherzo. I rarely listen to Scherchen these days (the bad sonics keep me away), but this recording is a good Scherchen-like replacement if you want an exciting alternative view of this work.

Jarvi's vision is very consistant here, and I never felt it was too fast...the M7 sounds great with a little power and drive added. 

As much as I love Mahler's orchestration in this work, I like to move along too.  I like the idea that this symphony is a "travelogue" of sorts.  It's a Schuberterian work in many ways.  Also, the early 20th Century modernity of the work reminds me of Joyce's Ulysses, in that each movement is almost a different style than the previous.  Jarvi seems to highlight this Schubertian and Modernist quality in spades.


Mahler: Songs With Orchestra - Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Ruckert-Lieder, Des Knaben Wunderhorn [Hybrid SACD - DSD, Import]

Susan Graham (mezzo-soprano)
Thomas Hampson (baritone)
Mahler (Composer)
Michael Tilson Thomas (Conductor)
San Francisco Symphony (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419%2Bnl6dbuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I return to this recording a lot (the iTunes download), and can happily express my joy and satisfaction over the experience.  Especially The Ruckert Lieder.  Bravo to Susan Graham.  Her voice is rich and expressive, with refinement and nuance.  Kudos to Michael Tilson Thomas and the SFSO for letting the music sound so transparent and un-intrusive. For those with reservations for MTT's Mahler, I'm sure the Ruckert Lieder will please very much.

I was also blown away by Thomas Hampson, but his mature voice is a mixed bag for some people.  I happen to like his mature voice on this recording, as well as his other release with MTT, on Das Lied von der Erde. He is in good form here.

I just wish the whole of Das Knaben Wunderhorn was recorded!  As it is, the selections here are very fine, and a joy to listen to over and over again.


Mahler:Symphony No 7 [Hybrid SACD - DSD]
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
David Zinman (Conductor)
Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WcG2bmrwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Mahler 7 haunts my listening life. It's the last nut I haven't cracked with Mahler, and perhaps that's a good thing.  Perhaps the whole work is really just social night music like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusic?  The music of the M7 reminds me of the rarefied air of Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde, with each movement projecting a different objective picture with no subjectivity added; purely show and NO tell.  This is how I hear Macal conduct Mahler's 7th; an intriguing concept and seems to work with the M7. 

The M7 was the first work of Mahler I heard live and for many years the M7 was my favorite symphony.  It's always been a mysterious work and perhaps I've been over anxious to get some answers and this is the cause for my frustration with the work the last few years.  It is a very important and transitional work in Mahler's ouevre and I think for personal reasons I've been too hard on it.  Perhaps I need to relax and just let the music wash over me like I once did.

In comparing Zinman to Bernstein's classic '60s account I have to say Lenny's is hard to beat in terms of drama, color and forward motion.  ON the other hand, Zinman provides a cooler look into this score not heard in Lenny's account.  By "cooler" I mean Zinman plays the M7 straight (but not boring). Because of this the spooky parts and romantic parts suddenly jump out you, surprising you and providing contrast with the straightforward tempos that serve to highlight the details of the score and harmonic progression. AND the sonics are among the most impressive for M7 on SACD.  I'm glad to have these two different approaches on hand.


Mahler: Symphony No.3
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
Petra Lang (Contralto)
American Boy Choir
Alan Gilbert (Conductor)
New York Philharmonic (Orchestra)


(Broadcast featured on iTunes and HD Tracks)

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hdtrack_img/HD844185042383_185.jpg)

I'm amazed by this performance.  Wow.  The nuance and orchestral detail are special, and fun to hear.  I don't think I've ever heard the 1st movement paced so well, with action and adventure at every turn.  For me this is up there with the Abbado Berlin account on DG and Zinman's recent account on RCA. 

The Gilbert Mahler 3 is among the best structured I've experienced, meaning, as each movement is heard there appears to be a flow and progress without the feeling of getting stuck or bored.  The whole symphony glows with beautiful sound.


Mahler: Symphony No.9
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
Lorin Maazel (Conductor)
New York Philharmonic (Orchestra)


(Broadcast featured on iTunes and HD Tracks)

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hdtrack_img/844185073158_185.jpg)

I was overjoyed to hear the inspiration of the middle movements here...what character and detail!  What humor and madness.  Usually these movements are more or less a waystation between the first and last movements, but here they command my attention just as much. 

In this performance the first and last movements are sublime.  The string sound is as enjoyable as the recent Rattle and Oue...and the brass and percussion jump out...listen to those timpani.

I notice that Maazel's new M9 has a strong "line" of nuance and control that appears to connect the whole work, every ebb and flow makes sense and collects this huge structure together quite dramatically and convincingly (to me).

Mahler: Symphony No.6
Gustav Mahler (composer)
Lorin Maazel (Conductor)
New York Philharmonic (Orchestra)


(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hdtrack_img/844185083157_185.jpg)

(Broadcast featured on iTunes and HD Tracks)

The Mahler 6 from Maazel's new cycle is probably the best recorded 6th I've ever heard. And the performance, like the powerful 9th from this cycle, is a revelation in terms of detail and dynamics. This recording taught me more about this symphony than I've heard in a long time. It is amazing in terms of drama. It simply has to be heard to be believed.  If anything, listen to how the instruments are lovingly captured in the sonics.  I've never heard so much of the score as in this performance.  The instumentalists were truly playing from inspiration here. 

Even those who don't like 18 minute Andantes may love what he does in the other movements. 


Mahler: Symphony No.2
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
Simon Rattle (Conductor)
Kate Royal and Magdalena Kožená (soloists)
Rundfunkchor Berlin (Chorus)


(iTunes exclusive...official CD release in Feb 2011)

(http://www.emiclassics.com/pack_image.php?icpn=5099964736358&size=190)

I've been listening to the Rattle/BPO M2 everyday almost, and find it amazing. I want to review it soon, but I will say, the sonics are probably the best that Rattle has had. It is truly beautifully recorded. The organ is great, so are the tamtam and strings; the whole performance is mind boggling. I had stopped buying M2 for awhile, the Fischer, MTT, and Macal were my recent favorites. But this Rattle is more powerful than those.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on March 07, 2011, 10:43:56 AM
Anybody know this:

Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fritz Wunderlich (tenor) & Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (baritone)

Wiener Symphoniker, Josef Krips

2011 is also a Mahler anniversary year – we commemorate the 100th anniversary of his death on 18 May. In conjunction with this anniversary we present a treasure from the archives: the Wunderlich / Fischer-Dieskau Das Lied von der Erde.

Mahler's great symphony of six songs on texts from an anthology of Chinese poetry was composed in summer 1908 – a period of anxiety and grief for the composer. The work celebrates the pleasures of wine and beauty and the joys of friendship, culminating in the overwhelming Abschied, a movement lasting half an hour, in which the poet takes farewell from his friend and from life.

Our CD is a live recording of a sold-out concert from the Vienna Festival, given at the Musikverein there on 14 June 1964, with tenor and baritone soloists. Josef Krips conducts the Wiener Symphoniker.

It is being released for the first time, using a unique source in the Krips family archive, a copy of the original ORF (Austrian Radio) tape, which is no longer to be found. Faithfully restored by the expert engineers at the Emil Berliner Studios in Berlin, it is a marvel of singing from the two great soloists, who were both closely associated with this great work.

Booklet notes by Thomas Voigt fill out the story with recollections from Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Harrietta Krips, the conductor's widow; illustrations include extracts from the original concert programme booklet and newspaper cuttings of the time. Full sung texts and translations included (German, English, French).


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 14, 2011, 06:02:40 PM
M7 is my favourite! I prefer the Tennstedt.

I've been making my way slowly through the Rattle box, and was listening to a bit of the 3rd this morning. I like Rattle's way with it, except that he doesn't smooth those rough transitions at all, making parts of it sound very patchwork. I'm still not a fan of this symphony. A lot of it is stuff I think he did better elsewhere, i.e. for the 2nd movement see the 4th symphony, for the 3rd movement see the 7th (and bits of 1, 2 and 4). The 4th movement I always find dreary. I do enjoy the 5th movement, but admit it's a bit of a Christmas card. I've always found the finale too long, contra the many who find it totally awesome. (And I can't help mentally singing "I'll be seeing you in all the old familiar places..." at certain points!) But I won't give up on it just yet.

Of the rest of the set, I haven't thought much of the Birmingham stuff in terms of playing or sound (M3 seems the best so far). I was underwhelmed by the M2. I do like his Berlin 5th a lot, and I like the Vienna 9th too, despite the criticism it has received (haven't heard the Berlin). The finale could stand to be more intense, but otherwise, very good. I already had the 10th, and still like it, though it's not perhaps the last word (how could it be?).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 15, 2011, 12:44:49 AM
For those who have access to it, the impending BBC music magazine will have a CD of a live Mahler 8 conducted by Runnicles. I don't know any other information, but I will be looking out for it.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 19, 2011, 03:04:10 AM
Quote from: knight66 on March 15, 2011, 12:44:49 AM
For those who have access to it, the impending BBC music magazine will have a CD of a live Mahler 8 conducted by Runnicles. I don't know any other information, but I will be looking out for it.

Mike

It has been published. I grabbed it yesterday. I was surprised it was with my old choir, the Edinburgh Festival Chorus.

Don't bother with it. Whatever excitements it holds there are two substantial problems. The main one is the poor sound. The choir is very distant, the sound is muddy and overall has a haze and little impact. The other problem is a fairly dire tenor: Simon O'Neill. He has the very occasional good note, but getting onto it and getting off it are painful for him and for us.

The conducting generates a lot of excitement and he provides periods of repose. Considering it comes from 2010, the sound is exceptionally disappointing. The Usher Hall is a difficult venue, but surely not more difficult than the Albert Hall. All three of the live Mahler 8s that I have from that venue, even one over 30 years old, are much better engineered.

What a letdown.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 20, 2011, 08:09:30 PM
I guess the 8 is hard to record? I liked the Neeme Jarvi performance which was rereleased in a Brilliant mixed cycle - except that it sounded like the choir was recorded with the mic in a bathtub, and a couple of the singers are poor. I could make some allowance for the sound, but in this work you really need every singer to be of high quality, or else not bother.

What I liked in Jarvi's take, BTW, was the lack of OTT hystrionicness, and almost classical clarity and beauty. I haven't made a survey of this work yet, but from what I've heard, Abbado may suit my needs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 20, 2011, 11:18:46 PM
I have been in choir for that piece a fair few times and with some well known conductors. The one with Jarvi was one of the best. Spontanious and flexible. The only blot was the opening of the 2nd movement which was oddly stiff. It was a pity that one was not recorded.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 23, 2011, 02:22:50 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 14, 2011, 12:17:27 PM
Ordered yesterday : Gilbert Kaplan - the Mahler Album

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519VLevl6xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Quote from: Brewski on March 14, 2011, 12:31:13 PM
This is a beautiful book, and filled with treasures. If you like Mahler (or perhaps even if you don't), you'll enjoy this a lot.
--Bruce

I have had a first run through this book and I will have to second Bruce's comment. This book is fascinating in its contents and very well presented indeed :

Introductory entries :

- A Portrait of Mahler by Kaplan
- Mahler's Life : chronology
- Mahler's works

Photo Sections :
1 - Mahler
2 - Family and relatives
3 - Homes and Halls
4 - Paintings, Drawings, Sculptures
5 - Cartoons, Caricatures
6 - Posthumous Art
7 - Postage stamps

A superb complement to any biography. I will try and post a couple of pics of inside pages over the week-end.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on April 19, 2011, 11:42:01 AM
Gergiev / LSO - 7th,  Live at Salle Pleyel symphony here for a limited time :

http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/_c/php/emission/popupMP3.php?e=80000054&d=425000715 (http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/_c/php/emission/popupMP3.php?e=80000054&d=425000715)

starts at about 4'30.


10th and 9th here :

http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/_c/php/emission/popupMP3.php?e=80000054&d=425000718 (http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/_c/php/emission/popupMP3.php?e=80000054&d=425000718)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on April 20, 2011, 06:00:29 AM
You can also watch a video of Gergiev and LSO perform Mahler 9 & 10 (Adagio) here:

http://www.citedelamusiquelive.tv/Concert/0960360.html (http://www.citedelamusiquelive.tv/Concert/0960360.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on April 20, 2011, 06:14:46 AM
Quote from: klingsor on April 20, 2011, 06:00:29 AM
You can also watch a video of Gergiev and LSO perform Mahler 9 & 10 (Adagio) here:

http://www.citedelamusiquelive.tv/Concert/0960360.html (http://www.citedelamusiquelive.tv/Concert/0960360.html)

That site is a new addition to the bookmarks. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on April 20, 2011, 11:33:12 AM
Ditto, thank you for the link, Klingsor  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on April 21, 2011, 03:53:08 AM
If anyone is interested in the somewhat rare and wonderful Mahler 6 from Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony (CD rip), I have it upped here:

https://rapidshare.com/files/219662767/Mahler_-_Symphony_6-_BSO-Leinsdorf.part1.rar
https://rapidshare.com/files/219678420/Mahler_-_Symphony_6-_BSO-Leinsdorf.part2.rar
https://rapidshare.com/files/219682352/Mahler_-_Symphony_6-_BSO-Leinsdorf.part3.rar

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 06, 2011, 02:21:07 AM


I Like This Guy a Lot: Thomas Hampson on Gustav Mahler (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=3077)
May is Mahler Month on WETA, remembering the composer who
died on May 18th, one hundred years ago. Mahler is a reoccurring
topic in this column and you can find all the Mahler-themed posts
at this link  (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?cat=24)and an overview of the WETA Mahler Survey here (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html).

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=3077 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=3077)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2011, 02:50:11 AM
Thanks, Klingsor, for the Leinsdorf Sixth.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2011, 03:19:32 AM
Quote from: klingsor on April 21, 2011, 03:53:08 AM
If anyone is interested in the somewhat rare and wonderful Mahler 6 from Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony (CD rip), I have it upped here:

https://rapidshare.com/files/219662767/Mahler_-_Symphony_6-_BSO-Leinsdorf.part1.rar
https://rapidshare.com/files/219678420/Mahler_-_Symphony_6-_BSO-Leinsdorf.part2.rar
https://rapidshare.com/files/219682352/Mahler_-_Symphony_6-_BSO-Leinsdorf.part3.rar

Thanks for these links!
Resulting in the first listening to Mahler for ages .... :)

When was it recorded? Around 1964/1965?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 06, 2011, 04:15:03 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 06, 2011, 03:19:32 AM
Thanks for these links!
Resulting in the first listening to Mahler for ages .... :)

When was it recorded? Around 1964/1965?

Yes, 1964 I'm pretty sure. Leinsdorf does not take the repeat in the First Movement. I love the way percussion sounds in this recording, you can really hear all of it, even the cowbells :). Let us know what you think after hearing it
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2011, 04:35:13 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 06, 2011, 04:15:03 AM
Yes, 1964 I'm pretty sure. Leinsdorf does not take the repeat in the First Movement. I love the way percussion sounds in this recording, you can really hear all of it, even the cowbells :). Let us know what you think after hearing it

I finished listening just now and I really liked this performance. But I haven't been listening to Mahler that much for the last three or four years. So, it's not easy to compare this one to other recordings.
I didn't mind about the mainly swift tempi used by Leinsdorf, even though I sometimes had the feeling that things went a (tiny) bit 'messy'. IMO, such small problematic moments give the listener the idea of a live performance, which I generally like in Mahler.
As far as I'm concerned, Leinsdorf and the orchestra really manage to maintain the tension throughout the entire work, even in the long Finale.
And, like you, I also appreciate the 'open' recording quality.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2011, 04:57:15 AM
Just listened to the first movement. And I like it! Remember - in those days the Mahler revival had only just started and the Sixth was still considered a dark and obscure work. So Leinsdorf didn't have much of a performance tradition to fall back on. Taking that into consideration, his interpretation - of that first movement at least - is very assured and convincing. I like his tempi, I like the exciting drive. I don't listen to Mahler that often anymore (he was the main composer of my adolescent years), but listening to this I know again exactly what I like(d) about him.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 06, 2011, 05:09:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2011, 04:57:15 AM
Just listened to the first movement. And I like it! Remember - in those days the Mahler revival had only just started and the Sixth was still considered a dark and obscure work. So Leinsdorf didn't have much of a performance tradition to fall back on. Taking that into consideration, his interpretation - of that first movement at least - is very assured and convincing. I like his tempi, I like the exciting drive. I don't listen to Mahler that often anymore (he was the main composer of my adolescent years), but listening to this I know again exactly what I like(d) about him.

I am pretty certain this was the first stereo recording of M6. I have an aircheck somewhere of the first live perf in Boston, essentially the same perf, but mono.

Like some of you, I have gone in and out of Mahler enthusiasm. He tends to inspire obsessive devotion, then after a while you need a break from it. But when I went back to Mahler a couple of years ago, it was full throttle  :o. I still feel like I can't get enough of this man's music.

I have some other Mahler rarities and oddities I can share in future
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 06, 2011, 06:35:48 PM
Here's an excellent Mahler 7, Boulez and Chicago Sym from 2006

https://rapidshare.com/files/425966544/Mahler_Sym_7_-_Chicago_-_Boulez__2006_.rar
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 12:06:08 AM
Thanks for that new link, Klingsor! The Seventh, especially the opening movement, has been a favourite of mine since my teens.


Re the Leinsdorf Sixth - my judgment remains very positive. Though there are some slight blotches in the Finale, the performance as a whole is very compelling and the sound nicely up close.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 02:48:47 PM
I agree, Klingsor: that Mahler 7 with Boulez is excellent. The 'problematic' Finale - where you don't know whether the jubilation is ironic or serious -  is especially well done.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 09, 2011, 03:09:14 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 02:48:47 PM
I agree, Klingsor: that Mahler 7 with Boulez is excellent. The 'problematic' Finale - where you don't know whether the jubilation is ironic or serious -  is especially well done.

My thoughts exactly. The finale of M7 is the only movement of his I don't like much,but Boulez redeems it in this perf

glad you like it
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 09, 2011, 03:46:29 PM
I think I've posted this elsewhere, but here are my thoughts on the 7th:

I think it's about a child's dreams at night.

I. Child is restless in bed but finally enters dreamland
II. Exterior nightscape
III. Bad dreams
IV. Exterior nightscape
V. Dream of a grand parade!

Note the structure was reused for the 10th, which I believe is about coping with the death of his daughter Maria.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 09, 2011, 05:28:03 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 09, 2011, 03:46:29 PM
I think I've posted this elsewhere, but here are my thoughts on the 7th:

I think it's about a child's dreams at night.

I. Child is restless in bed but finally enters dreamland
II. Exterior nightscape
III. Bad dreams
IV. Exterior nightscape
V. Dream of a grand parade!

Note the structure was reused for the 10th, which I believe is about coping with the death of his daughter Maria.

If you have ever seen the Ken Russell film MAHLER, the best scene is a nightmare the young composer has in which he encounters a white horse in the forest. The music you hear is from the 7th.

So in your layout, the finale is exorcising the fears of the other movements?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 09, 2011, 07:36:25 PM
No, I wouldn't say the finale exorcises anything (or arrives at any capital-C Conclusion), it just chooses to end on a positive aspect. It's like a suite or serenade in that respect, but I don't think that makes it a lesser work.

Haven't seen the Russell film. Is there nudity?  0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 08:52:47 AM
Probably!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on May 10, 2011, 08:53:01 AM
I don't think the finale even needs to be positive. (Scherchen in Toronto is perhaps the most extreme example of this, where the light at the end of the tunnel is definitely a train, but he's hardly the only conductor to view the finale in a far-from-joyous light.)

What I like best about M7 is how much ambiguity there is in it--there are so many interpretations of this work which all seem entirely valid and convincing. Anyway, thanks for this Boulez version that's been linked--I'll be taking a listen to it when I can.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 10, 2011, 10:26:25 AM
Quote from: edward on May 10, 2011, 08:53:01 AM
I don't think the finale even needs to be positive. (Scherchen in Toronto is perhaps the most extreme example of this, where the light at the end of the tunnel is definitely a train, but he's hardly the only conductor to view the finale in a far-from-joyous light.)

What I like best about M7 is how much ambiguity there is in it--there are so many interpretations of this work which all seem entirely valid and convincing. Anyway, thanks for this Boulez version that's been linked--I'll be taking a listen to it when I can.

Not be argumentative, but I always experience the finale of M7 as positive. Mahler was going for an upbeat, joyful conclusion, in my opinion (I only used the word 'exorcise' based on eyeresist's suggest titles for the other movements). The finale makes reference to the Meistersinger overture and to the Merry Widow waltz, and I think its rondo form is first-cousin to the finale of M5, as is the overall spirit of the music. Perhaps after so much ambiguity, as you say, Mahler felt he wanted an unambiguous conclusion. But knowing how much trouble he had getting started on this symphony, I have suspected the Seventh never formed as fully in his mind the way his others did. The result is a work open to numerous interpretations, mine being only one among them.

let us know what you think of the Boulez/Chicago
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 11:10:37 AM
After listening to the symphony for almost 35 years (on and off, of course!) I must say I agree with Edward's view - that the Finale is the ambiguous close to an ambiguous work. I also agree with Klingsor's remark that it's first-cousin to the one in the Fifth. The difference between these two works, though, is that No. 5 follows the Beethovenian battle-and-victory scheme in a highly original manner, whereas No. 7 is much more like a kaleidoscopic exploration of moods and landscapes. I liked eyeresist's idea of a child's dreams at night. My own childhood was marked by very vivid dreams and nightmares, so for me to like this work so much makes sense...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 10, 2011, 04:03:55 PM

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HN6uKjOLVes/TcnOJlnoRaI/AAAAAAAABfs/G2gMwXDU1Zo/s400/BRSO_Jansons_Mahler6.png)


Ionarts-at-Large: Jansons' Mahler Six


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/ionarts-at-large-jansons-mahler-six.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/ionarts-at-large-jansons-mahler-six.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 11, 2011, 02:15:03 AM
thanks for that link to the Jansons  :), jlaurson
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 11, 2011, 05:39:06 PM
Grrrrrrr, andante FIRST, godamit.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on May 11, 2011, 05:58:54 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 11, 2011, 05:39:06 PM
Grrrrrrr, andante FIRST, godamit.

The nerve!  If I listen to a CD with the Andante as the 2nd movement (RE: The 6th), I just program the track to play 1,3,2,4.
Problem solved!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 11, 2011, 06:06:31 PM
No, I think you misunderstood - that's the opposite of what I meant. I WANT the andante to be first, which Jansons didn't do.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on May 11, 2011, 06:10:50 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 11, 2011, 06:06:31 PM
No, I think you misunderstood - that's the opposite of what I meant. I WANT the andante to be first, which Jansons didn't do.

Oh......you are correct, I misunderstood.   :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 11, 2011, 10:54:36 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 11, 2011, 05:39:06 PM
Grrrrrrr, andante FIRST, godamit.

Why ? ? ? ?

I know that's the closest we can get to approximating G.M.'s final wishes/intentions (if one can use so strong a word in this case). But are there compelling musical / dramatic reasons for preferring the Andante ahead of the Scherzo? The only 'reason' I can see (but then again, I'm not looking very hard to justify that order), is the similarity of the Opening movement with the Scherzo... but then it's precisely that opening double blow -- LEFT. RIGHT. Wham. Bam! -- that I find fascinating... before the Andante prepares one for the devastating finale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 12, 2011, 02:19:49 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 11, 2011, 06:06:31 PM
No, I think you misunderstood - that's the opposite of what I meant. I WANT the andante to be first, which Jansons didn't do.

I prefer the Andante before the Scherzo as well. Not just because it was Mahler's final decision. I think the Andante works as a contrast to the Allegro we've just heard (and which in some performances can seem devastating), then we hear the Scherzo, whose opening can recall the relentlessness of the Allegro. It works for me, because the start of the Finale is a  long, slow section. To be honest, both movement orders work for me, but I do prefer Andante-Scherzo.

I have only heard the First Movement of the Jansons, and I liked it quite a lot, nicely audible percussion and celesta, I even heard the cowbells. Unfortunately, the player did not let me pause and start again with the Second Movement, so I'll have to go back from the beginning.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 02:47:16 AM
I think the main reason people object to the andante first is that they've been listening to it scherzo first for fifty years, so of course any other way sounds wrong. The younger generation will have its own opinion...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 12, 2011, 03:24:32 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 02:47:16 AM
I think the main reason people object to the andante first is that they've been listening to it scherzo first for fifty years, so of course any other way sounds wrong. The younger generation will have its own opinion...

1.) Most people have not been listening to the Scherzo first for 50 years; more conductors have performed (at all times, I dare say -- esp. if you discount cheating on LPs or CDs where engineers reversed the order)  A-S than S-A.
2.) I *AM* part of the younger generation and I do have my own opinion... and yet it doesn't seem to be the same as yours. (Which is why I asked you for actual reasons in the first place... because rather than a reading a flippant reference to "habits and stupidity" as preferences for S-A on other people's part, I'm genuinely interested in why exactly you [or others] think A-S is to be preferred, musically. I'd like to hear from Fischer Ivan, for example, who performed it differently every performance for a whole tour... and eventually settled on A-S over S-A for his (superb!) recording... But I never got into details with him about that yet So I'm still waiting to hear a compelling, non-biographical argument.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2011, 03:34:03 AM
The first time I heard the Sixth was 35 years ago, when I was 15. 2 LPs, Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra. The order was S-A. And in the two decades or so following that, that was the order I heard on recordings and in the concert hall. But the funny thing is - I always had a bit of a problem with S-A, because the movements are so similar. I often wondered why Mahler should want to stay in the same atmosphere as the first movement for quite so long. When I read that the preferred order was A-S, it didn't surprise me. But I still, when I think of the symphony, have that original order imprinted in my brain...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 12, 2011, 04:11:01 AM
New release of interest[asin]B003JC4E4Y[/asin]



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2011, 04:36:42 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2011, 03:34:03 AMI often wondered why Mahler should want to stay in the same atmosphere as the first movement for quite so long.

But he doesn't. It's a completely different "atmosphere" --the Scherzo being a parody of the first movement, or an ironic restatement. At least that's the way I hear it. Heard that way it works most effectively coming right after the first movement. It is a huge contrast (despite the similarity in tempo).

I can't find it now but I swear I read there has been a recent discovery that proves Mahler changed his mind before he died, reverted to S-A. In any case S-A was the way it was composed and he had good reasons for that order. First thoughts often are best thoughts.

Those who argue that it should be A-S because that's the way Mahler did it, well, Mahler said future conductors could change his music if they thought it could be improved (the way Mahler himself changed Beethoven and Schumann). If he could have heard what Bernstein or Boulez or (choose your favorite conductor here) did with the score, I don't think he would have objected.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 12, 2011, 05:04:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2011, 04:36:42 AM
I can't find it now but I swear I read there has been a recent discovery that proves Mahler changed his mind before he died, reverted to S-A. In any case S-A was the way it was composed and he had good reasons for that order. First thoughts often are best thoughts.

Perhaps there is... and that's what Jansons was referring to? I was surprised that he'd refer to 'new evidence' (for S-A) that was in fact "old evidence" that has since been unmasked as academic fraud (by the former president of the Gustav Mahler Society. He, too, was convinced that Mahler's original idea -- S-A -- was superior, so he concocted evidence that Mahler changed his mind late in his life.  When that came out to be fraud/false, even HLdLG had to climb down from his very prominent pro S-A stance to merely saying: "I think it makes more sense that way..."

It would be ironic if he was to be correct, after all... (though I do think that the guy is correct about the preferred order of the movements, of course.

Here's a bit from one of the WETA pieces on the Sixth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1291):

QuoteBarbirolli and Bernstein's view of this symphony were very likely influenced by the greatest Mahlerian since Mengelberg and Walter, and by far the most exciting next to Bernstein: Dimitri Mitropoulos. Mitropoulos gave the first American performances of the Sixth (Andante/Scherzo) in 1947. A recording from 1955 (also Andante/Scherzo) with the New York forces is floating around (notably in the New York Philharmonic $200-plus luxury box set) and is said to be played better—but the live-recording with the WDR Sinfonieorchester Köln from 1959 (at time when "live" meant live!) is riveting, raw, individualistic (still shy of eccentric); truly an edge-of-the-seat reading. (Issued on the Mitropoulos set as part of EMI's prematurely aborted "Greatest Conductors of the 20th Century" edition, it is still available... while I'm not sure if I trust the sound on the Urania issue (not having heard it but given bad experience with the label), that's one currently in print.) That the orchestra struggles in several passages can be troubling—or alternatively seen as furthering that pushed-to-the-brink feeling. The order of the movements here is Scherzo/Andante and that's how it has been published in all its outings on CD... Mitropoulos curiously having changed the movement-order four years prior to the International Gustav Mahler Gesellschaft's critical edition suggesting the Scherzo be placed first. (Most likely Erwin Ratz, founder and editor of the IGMG, and the irrationally ardent supporter of the Scherzo-Andante order mentioned above, had convinced him to do so before a performance in Vienna in 1957.) The sound is admittedly rather limited for most of the first movement but it gets better from thereon... and the rest of the modest quality is adjusted for by the ears. Not a 'first' recommendation but a dedicated Mahler listener or any fan of the Sixth won't pass it up. This recording, unlike some other old and low-fi recordings I have criticized, is one where you definitely can hear and enjoy the interpretive choices.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on May 12, 2011, 06:13:31 AM
I prefer Scherzo-Andante for two reasons:

*The serenity and break from the insanity is sorely needed (for me) just before that final, mammoth hammer-blows movement begins, and the Andante prepares us for this apocalyptic movement.

*The Scherzo is almost/not quite, a continuation of the 1st movement.  One could argue that it could be played without a break in between the first and second movement, am I right?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2011, 06:25:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2011, 04:36:42 AM
But he doesn't. It's a completely different "atmosphere" --the Scherzo being a parody of the first movement, or an ironic restatement. At least that's the way I hear it. Heard that way it works most effectively coming right after the first movement. It is a huge contrast (despite the similarity in tempo).


I find the the main themes of both movements very similar. Of course, the one marches and the other stumbles and stutters, but still, that stamping is identical. Yes, there is glorious lyrical contrast in the first movement, but the irony is already in action, too, in that mocking sound you can hear in those descending trills, reinforced by the xylophone. So I have always felt the Scherzo as more of an extension of some elements in the first movement than 'something completely different'.


Saw this later. But I concur:

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 12, 2011, 06:13:31 AM

*The Scherzo is almost/not quite, a continuation of the 1st movement.  One could argue that it could be played without a break in between the first and second movement, am I right?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 12, 2011, 05:29:53 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 12, 2011, 03:24:32 AM
... I asked you for actual reasons in the first place... because rather than a reading a flippant reference to "habits and stupidity" as preferences for S-A on other people's part, I'm genuinely interested in why exactly you [or others] think A-S is to be preferred, musically. ... So I'm still waiting to hear a compelling, non-biographical argument.)

My opinion on the music aligns with Klingsor and Herrenberg. The first time I heard the symphony, not knowing anything of the disputed movement order, it just sounded wrong to me. Following the first movement with the scherzo seemed to me a case of "over-egging the pudding", as people who know how pudding is made might say. So, when I eventually discovered the controversy, it all made sense to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 13, 2011, 05:24:58 AM
That Jansons M6 link is dead now  :(

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 14, 2011, 08:20:25 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 13, 2011, 05:24:58 AM
That Jansons M6 link is dead now  :(

I think that was a temporary downage of the website. Works again.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 18, 2011, 03:10:41 AM

HOW TO MARK TODAY: 100TH ANNIVERSARY OF MAHLER'S DEATH
http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/05/how-to-mark-today.html (http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/05/how-to-mark-today.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2011, 03:26:23 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 18, 2011, 03:10:41 AM
HOW TO MARK TODAY: 100TH ANNIVERSARY OF MAHLER'S DEATH
http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/05/how-to-mark-today.html (http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/05/how-to-mark-today.html)

Thanks for the link.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 18, 2011, 05:03:05 AM
A musician named Lev Parikian says, on Twitter:

"Celebrate Mahler Day by having repeated, extended and noisy orgasms, followed by long periods of gloomy introspection and death."

;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 18, 2011, 05:14:40 AM
When Mahler took Manhattan

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/18/opinion/18Davis.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/18/opinion/18Davis.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on May 18, 2011, 05:24:06 AM
I enjoyed that article (well both actually) klingsor.  Will be listening to the Hampson/MTT recording of Das Lied von der Erde later today.

[asin]B001DPC3Q0[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 18, 2011, 05:54:55 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 18, 2011, 05:24:06 AM
I enjoyed that article (well both actually) klingsor.  Will be listening to the Hampson/MTT recording of Das Lied von der Erde later today.

[asin]B001DPC3Q0[/asin]

An excellent performance of DAS LIED  :)

If you want to continue your Mahler day, here is the new Discovering Music program on Sym 2--

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tn54 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tn54)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on May 18, 2011, 05:57:13 AM
Oh nice, I'll have to see if I can get to it this evening. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2011, 06:26:39 AM
Testify, Leon!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 18, 2011, 07:09:28 AM
After the rousing finale of Rach's Sym. Dances, I'm in no mood listen to Mahler for the rest of evening, but I just got a mail from Gramophone saying that they've put up a few lists of Mahler symphonies/cycles

http://email.gramophone.net/q/1NbM4ZkRfWNpRk/wv
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2011, 07:15:38 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 18, 2011, 06:23:11 AM
Now that I have finally conquered my Wagner, Liszt and organ phobias,    :o   the final frontier will be Mahler and Bruckner.

Mahler: the final frontier. To boldly go where no Leon has gone before.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2011, 07:21:38 AM
For me, I haven't quite taken to the Bruckner symphonies yet.  Some day!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on May 18, 2011, 07:23:32 AM
I will listen to Boulez Mahler 6 on this occasion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2011, 07:37:07 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 18, 2011, 07:34:34 AM
I've heard a smattering of Mahler (I've got the Bernstein set and one that came with a big Brilliant symphony box) and while I certainly don't find the music objectionable, his work has never beckoned to me in such a way that I find myself dipping into it very often.  Bruckner, OTOH, will constitute an almost  entirely new territory.  I have the Karajan cycle and some of Jochum's - but actually never heard a note.

Maybe I should being with Bruckner's organ works?   :-\

The first Bruckner to really sell me were the Masses and Motets. YMMV, of course!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2011, 08:03:37 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 18, 2011, 07:34:34 AM
Maybe I should being with Bruckner's organ works?   :-\

The organ works are minor Bruckner. I think even among dedicated Brucknerites few have heard them. You could start there but it won't tell you very much about Bruckner.

I never know what to recommend as a starting point: the masses, motets, the symphonies? Should you jump right into the masterpieces? or work your way up chronologically? I don't know. I do know that there is never a consensus here when the question is asked, Where to begin? Myself, the first Bruckner I heard was the Third (and since it was dedicated to my hero Wagner, I thought the perfect place to start). But it bored me silly...bored me so much it put me off Bruckner for years. Then I heard the Fourth and it all came together. But the thing is: now it's the Third I listen to the most...and the Fourth the least.

Anyway, the Fifth through the Ninth are all bloody perfect masterpieces. Choose any one and you'll be hearing Bruckner at his best. Still, that Third is so much fun...especially the original version with the blatant Wagner quotes.  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 18, 2011, 08:29:33 AM
If you're starting with Bruckner, I would suggest the 7th--the one that sold me on him--a magnificent, melodic feast from start to finish.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 18, 2011, 08:29:45 AM
Mahler... poor guy, died hundred years ago and his memorial here is about an intro to Bruckner.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 18, 2011, 08:35:14 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 18, 2011, 08:29:45 AM
Mahler... poor guy, died hundred years ago and his memorial here is about an intro to Bruckner.

:o  Back to Mahler --
I just heard the BBC3 docu on Mahler 2-- pretty good, but not essential listening after all, imho

I've been mildly obsessed with M3 lately, so I may go home and listen to that.
Just heard the new Thomas Hampson Wunderhorn songs---very good stuff
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 18, 2011, 08:39:33 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 18, 2011, 08:35:14 AM
I've been mildly obsessed with M3 lately, so I may go home and listen to that.

I'm going to take after Brian in this regard, the symphonies will be too much now, so I'll listen to some of the songs on the 'Pod before I go to sleep.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 18, 2011, 08:47:25 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 18, 2011, 08:43:55 AM
commodo indulgeo mihi

I have no idea what that means, but I know the Andante Comodo when I hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/v/4j2mSULqbYg
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2011, 08:47:42 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 18, 2011, 08:43:55 AM
OH, mea culpa - that was my post, but I did not intend to derail the thread, commodo indulgeo mihi

:-[

And you can blame my senility....I seldom know what thread I'm in  ;D

Sarge the Geezer
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 18, 2011, 08:55:28 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 18, 2011, 08:51:49 AM
My Latin is very rusty (high school was a long time ago for me), and I was hoping to write "please forgive me" but got a lousy translation - I think a better phrase would be "Mihi ignoscas" - as if the thread were not derailed wenough, I've now gone off into Latin phrases ....   :-X

Thanks to you, I now know two more Latin phrases. And I'm actually listening to a Mahler symphony tonight -- contrary to what I said earlier -- thanks to the Latin/video. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2011, 09:21:12 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 18, 2011, 08:51:49 AM
My Latin is very rusty (high school was a long time ago for me), and I was hoping to write "please forgive me" but got a lousy translation

When your Latin is in doubt, consult our own Cato  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2011, 10:01:31 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 18, 2011, 08:47:25 AM
I have no idea what that means, but I know the Andante Comodo when I hear it.

Walking into a water closet.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 18, 2011, 08:47:25 AM
I have no idea what that means, but I know the Andante Comodo when I hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/v/4j2mSULqbYg


Thanks! Nice way of commemorating the centenary of Mahler's immortality.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on May 18, 2011, 10:28:33 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2011, 10:01:31 AM
Walking into a water closet.

Going comfortably, of course.

The oddest marking I have seen is "moderato non troppo"  or "moderately, but not to much."  What does "not too moderately" mean?  Is that slower than moderately or faster than moderately?

Equally puzzling, "molto moderato" or "very moderately."  Huh? 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 18, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 18, 2011, 10:28:33 AM
The oddest marking I have seen is "moderato non troppo"  or "moderately, but not to much."  What does "not too moderately" mean?  Is that slower than moderately or faster than moderately?

Equally puzzling, "molto moderato" or "very moderately."  Huh? 

Exactly! Is a puzzlement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on May 18, 2011, 10:39:12 AM
http://sohothedog.blogspot.com/2011/05/strauss-and-mahler-re-enact-your.html

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid is my favorite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 18, 2011, 10:47:47 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 18, 2011, 10:28:33 AM
Equally puzzling, "molto moderato" or "very moderately."  Huh?

I've only seen that one in P.D.Q. Bach.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on May 18, 2011, 10:48:43 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 18, 2011, 10:47:47 AM
I've only seen that one in P.D.Q. Bach.

Look at Schubert's last piano sonata.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on May 18, 2011, 11:08:37 AM
Quote from: Drasko on May 18, 2011, 10:39:12 AM
http://sohothedog.blogspot.com/2011/05/strauss-and-mahler-re-enact-your.html

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid is my favorite.

That was funny.  It's a Wonderful Life was my fav, followed by The Seventh Seal.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2011, 12:28:31 PM
Marked The Day by listening to the Levine/Munich 9th this morning.
Then Amazon cooperatively arranged, as part of my order from last week, to have the Gergiev 5th and Zinman 10th arrive today.
So I listened to them this afternoon.  Will have to listen to them again before I even start to offer an opinion, although I have to say that the Gergiev was much better than his Fourth, which is probably the worst of that series. 
The Zinman uses the Carpenter version, btw, which I never heard before.

I have to say that, whatever else you think of his Mahler Cycle, Zinman's Ninth is one you should have.  His last movement is the opposite of angst/death--if it's death, it's not the farewell to earth that Zinman shows in the Adagio, but the entrance of the soul into Heaven--it's a musical climb into serenity.

Then continued the day by ordering (on Amazon Marketplace) the MTT 1 (used copy, cross my fingers) and Nagano 8 (new).   They are being reissued next month (at least, the MTT is being reissued in the UK and available from Presto, and the Nagano as part of the HM Gold series). but I didn't want to wait a month!

And, as prelude, last night I pre-ordered the EMI box of Tennstedt's complete Mahler recordings (16 CDs, including alternate recordings of 5, 6, and 7) and the Wunderlich/DFD/Krips recording of DLvdE.    I won't, however, get those until about this time next month.

Now off to decide what I want to do this evening, while I listen to the Vivaldi CD's that also arrived today from Arkivmusic.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 18, 2011, 03:38:43 PM
I will listen to Mahler 10/Chailly today...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 20, 2011, 05:00:17 AM
If anyone wants to hear the Christopher White recording of Mahler 10 (Cooke) arranged for piano solo

https://rapidshare.com/users/M7AOB7/0 (https://rapidshare.com/users/M7AOB7/0)

Hope the links work, let me know if they don't

(http://bigpondmusic.com/images/AlbumCoverArt/53/XXL/Mahler-Symphony-No-104.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 20, 2011, 05:04:54 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 20, 2011, 05:00:17 AM
If anyone wants to hear the Christopher White recording of Mahler 10 (Cooke) arranged for piano solo

https://rapidshare.com/users/M7AOB7/0 (https://rapidshare.com/users/M7AOB7/0)

Hope the links work, let me know if they don't

(http://bigpondmusic.com/images/AlbumCoverArt/53/XXL/Mahler-Symphony-No-104.jpg)

Dude, you didn't make it to our concert yesterday by any chance?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 20, 2011, 05:16:25 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 20, 2011, 05:00:17 AM
If anyone wants to hear the Christopher White recording of Mahler 10 (Cooke) arranged for piano solo

https://rapidshare.com/users/M7AOB7/0 (https://rapidshare.com/users/M7AOB7/0)

Hope the links work, let me know if they don't

(http://bigpondmusic.com/images/AlbumCoverArt/53/XXL/Mahler-Symphony-No-104.jpg)


Now downloading. Ergo: they work. Thanks!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 20, 2011, 06:01:26 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2011, 05:04:54 AM
Dude, you didn't make it to our concert yesterday by any chance?

No I did not. I rarely go out on weeknights. Did it go well?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 20, 2011, 06:02:19 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 20, 2011, 05:16:25 AM

Now downloading. Ergo: they work. Thanks!

Good to know. Tell us what you think after listening.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on May 20, 2011, 06:12:26 AM
Very nicely, thanks!  There will be a recording, if you might be interested.

(Sorry to de-rail the Mahler thread, gents!)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 20, 2011, 07:36:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2011, 06:12:26 AM
Very nicely, thanks!  There will be a recording, if you might be interested.

(Sorry to de-rail the Mahler thread, gents!)


It's ok, Mahler can take it--remember the Sixth Symphony  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 20, 2011, 08:00:17 AM
Just listened to the Purgatorio movement first, as a 'light' taster. I think the transcription is miraculously done, most (all?) of the detail is there. The playing is excellent, too. This movement is one of my favourites in all Mahler, it is inexpressibly haunting and poignant (some of the material comes from a Wunderhorn song, of course).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 20, 2011, 10:43:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 20, 2011, 08:00:17 AM
Just listened to the Purgatorio movement first, as a 'light' taster. I think the transcription is miraculously done, most (all?) of the detail is there. The playing is excellent, too. This movement is one of my favourites in all Mahler, it is inexpressibly haunting and poignant (some of the material comes from a Wunderhorn song, of course).

Yes that movement is particularly well-played. It almost works as a piano piece too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 20, 2011, 12:06:22 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 20, 2011, 08:00:17 AM
Just listened to the Purgatorio movement first, as a 'light' taster. I think the transcription is miraculously done, most (all?) of the detail is there. The playing is excellent, too. This movement is one of my favourites in all Mahler, it is inexpressibly haunting and poignant (some of the material comes from a Wunderhorn song, of course).

Just got back from the 10th 'in the flesh and blood'... MDR SO with Jun Maerkl as part of the International Mahler Leipzig Festival (Yesterday Salonen with Dresden Staatskapelle in M3).

What a piece, indeed. A good deal of spotty playing at first (not that Dresden was all that great,  though Leipzig [Chailly M2, the only performance I had to miss] apparently WAS)... but the saved the real bliss for the unbelievable finale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 22, 2011, 03:07:56 AM
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on May 22, 2011, 01:50:18 AM
Not sure if this has been posted before (and if it has, then apologies) but the MDR website has a page devoted to the Mahler festival (http://www.mdr.de/mahler) that Jens is referring to.  On it at the moment is a video of a complete Mahler 7 conducted by Nézet-Séguin in the Gewandhaus. 

The Seventh (4th and 5th movement) was AMAZING. Unbelievable.

Here from Night No.2:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Salonen - Dresden - Third Symphony

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kqilU6eehto/TdhR_oUEDGI/AAAAAAAABgE/mJ19JRoZh1k/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_3_Dresden_Salonen.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-salonen-dresden.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-salonen-dresden.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 22, 2011, 03:43:40 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 22, 2011, 03:07:56 AM
The Seventh (4th and 5th movement) was AMAZING. Unbelievable.
Thanks to Soapy and you for this! Enjoyed it tremendously!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 22, 2011, 03:52:30 AM
Thank you for that link, more Mahler on video  is always welcome
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 22, 2011, 06:18:48 AM
Tonight's listening will be the Second (Chailly LGO) from the Festival.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 22, 2011, 10:33:20 AM
I just watched the M10 with MDR Sinfonieorchester and Märkl -- a super performance, highly recommended. By all means watch or download it
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2011, 04:49:49 AM
Mahler in Leipzig


Mahler in Leipzig

Here from Night No.3:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Märkl - MDR SO - Tenth Symphony

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hf3aJegbYkw/TdkSWMQN01I/AAAAAAAABgM/ulpLF4-msVE/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_10_MDRSO_Markl.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-markl-mdr-so.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-markl-mdr-so.html)



Here from Night No.4:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Nezét-Séguin - BRSO - Seventh Symphony

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1ScFUxxakWU/TdpRmqBW0CI/AAAAAAAABgs/fLV5J6rg_q4/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_7_BRSO_Nezet_Seguin.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-nezet-seguin.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-nezet-seguin.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 24, 2011, 08:27:56 AM
(http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/files/jihlava-courtesy-2.jpg)

NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY on MAHLER

Info and watch a brief making-of docu here:

http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/2011/05/23/mahler/ (http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/2011/05/23/mahler/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 24, 2011, 08:32:09 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 24, 2011, 08:27:56 AM
(http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/files/jihlava-courtesy-2.jpg)

NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY on MAHLER

Info and watch a brief making-of docu here:

http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/2011/05/23/mahler/ (http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/2011/05/23/mahler/)
Nice! Can't wait to watch this one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 24, 2011, 08:33:58 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 24, 2011, 08:27:56 AM
(http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/files/jihlava-courtesy-2.jpg)

NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY on MAHLER

Info and watch a brief making-of docu here:

http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/2011/05/23/mahler/ (http://blogs.praguepost.com/music/2011/05/23/mahler/)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 24, 2011, 09:25:46 AM
Mahler in Leipzig

Here from Night No.5:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Luisi - Concertgebouw - Das Lied von der Erde

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JnSpuHMuPTE/Tdvo10vhcjI/AAAAAAAABg8/0KMDwanO7Zw/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_DLvdE_RCO_Luisi.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-luisi.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-luisi.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 25, 2011, 02:22:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 24, 2011, 09:25:46 AM
Mahler in Leipzig

Here from Night No.5:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Luisi - Concertgebouw - Das Lied von der Erde

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JnSpuHMuPTE/Tdvo10vhcjI/AAAAAAAABg8/0KMDwanO7Zw/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_DLvdE_RCO_Luisi.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-luisi.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-luisi.html)

Enjoying your reviews. I have been watching the online versions. In the case of Das Lied, the singers' microphones eliminate the problem of balance with the orchestra. The tenor is especially impressive here. I hear this as a fine interpretation of a work that seems to be lucky in its performance history. (I'll be hearing the Abbado Berlin with Kaufmann and van Otter in the coming days.)

I also noted some flubs in the Salonen M3. The young man on solo trumpet could not hide a grimace after one especially notable one. I would say this is an efficient, mostly well-played M3, with only the posthorn solo, mezzo-soprano, and choruses as standouts. Salonen is not my favorite Mahler conductor. He seems too matter-of-fact, the somewhat blasé expression on his face doesn't help when you see it so often. I kept wishing they'd show a lot less of him and more of the orchestra.

In M10, the strings of the MDR really impressed me and I was nearly overwhelmed by the the great Adagio. Märkl really plumbs some Mahlerian depths there, and later in the symphony. While it may not have been a perfectly played concert, I came away feeling very convinced by this work (first time I see any performance of it).

I have yet to hear the M7, 2, 1, and 5 from this series. Your comments on the M7 have piqued my interest especially in that one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 25, 2011, 03:25:29 AM

Mahler in Leipzig

Here from Night No.6:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Gergiev - LSO - First Symphony

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SptclRBS2oE/Tdw4m0H7OyI/AAAAAAAABhE/A_EB0cEw8B4/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_1_LSO_GERGIEV.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-gergiev-lso.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-gergiev-lso.html)

(the nadir.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2011, 06:56:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 25, 2011, 03:25:29 AM
Mahler in Leipzig

Here from Night No.6:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Gergiev - LSO - First Symphony

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SptclRBS2oE/Tdw4m0H7OyI/AAAAAAAABhE/A_EB0cEw8B4/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_1_LSO_GERGIEV.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-gergiev-lso.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-gergiev-lso.html)

(the nadir.)

Maybe it's different performances, or simply different ears on different heads, but  I found the performance of the 10th Adagio that fills out Gergiev's recording of the 2nd to be an excellent one--perhaps the best I've heard yet of the movement in isolation.  Certainly better than the 2nd.   And while I wouldn't call it the best recording of the 1st, I think the LSO Live recording of that symphony is above average.    That recording of the 5th, OTOH,  seems fairly mainstream to me--not a bad one by any means,but nothing to get excited over, and every time I've played it, I keep wondering "Okay, what did Jens hear that I'm not hearing?"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 25, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 25, 2011, 06:56:30 AM
Maybe it's different performances, or simply different ears on different heads, but  I found the performance of the 10th Adagio that fills out Gergiev's recording of the 2nd to be an excellent one--perhaps the best I've heard yet of the movement in isolation.

Hmm... I have to listen to it; after this Adagio I can't even imagine he *could* do a good Adagio.

QuoteCertainly better than the 2nd.   And while I wouldn't call it the best recording of the 1st, I think the LSO Live recording of that symphony is above average.    That recording of the 5th, OTOH,  seems fairly mainstream to me--not a bad one by any means,but nothing to get excited over, and every time I've played it, I keep wondering "Okay, what did Jens hear that I'm not hearing?"

"Not bad" is indeed some achievement in my view of Gergiev's Mahler.  ;) I think it's "mainstream ++". It has grip and it doesn't slacken. That puts it above many other M5s and in a category with Jaap van Zweden / LPO et al. Perhaps a touch grit added (so absent in the First).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2011, 07:56:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 25, 2011, 07:06:00 AM
Hmm... I have to listen to it; after this Adagio I can't even imagine he *could* do a good Adagio.


I'd encourage you.  But bear in mind that I seem to have a better opinion of his Mahler than you do--I particularly like the 3rd and 6th, and the 7th close behind; the only one I don't really like at all is the 4th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2011, 12:26:02 PM

Mahler in Leipzig

Here from Night No.6:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Gilbert - NY Phil - Fifth Symphony / Kindertotenlieder

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ivtTyw_MfWA/Td6zGOGaq6I/AAAAAAAABhM/UlQydUFM9mA/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_5_NYP_Gilber.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-gilbert-ny-phil.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-gilbert-ny-phil.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 27, 2011, 09:53:33 AM
Mahler in Leipzig

Here from Night No.7:

Mahler Festival Leipzig: Zinman - Tonhalle Zurich - Sixth Symphony

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-r9dDg2VHfaw/Td_gWwGB4mI/AAAAAAAABhU/n20nxcC05rg/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_6_Tonhalle_Zinman.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-zinman-tonhalle.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-zinman-tonhalle.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2011, 07:04:00 AM

Mahler in Leipzig

Here from Night No.8:


Mahler Festival Leipzig: Harding - Mahler Chamber Orchestra - Fourth Symphony


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gebHpo_apOw/TeELx0d4AeI/AAAAAAAABhc/LoACikVAd4Q/s400/Leipzig_Mahler_4_MCO_Harding.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-harding-mahler.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-harding-mahler.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2011, 01:49:07 PM
Just saw seven songs excerpted from Des Knaben Wunderhorn by Hanno Muller-Brachmann, LPO, Jurowski. Terrific! I've been having a very hard time relating to much in Mahler's symphonies, but the wit, emotional immediacy, amazing orchestration, and no doubt the brevity of the lieder were very appealing to me. The lack of overbearing angst and self-absorption reminded me of snatches of Symphony 1 but no other Mahler symphony I've heard so far. Terrific stuff; I could have easily listened to the whole song cycle. Is this the Mahler breakthrough I'm looking for? What symphony should I tackle next?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2011, 02:04:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2011, 01:49:07 PM
Just saw seven songs excerpted from Des Knaben Wunderhorn by Hanno Muller-Brachmann, LPO, Jurowski. Terrific! I've been having a very hard time relating to much in Mahler's symphonies, but the wit, emotional immediacy, amazing orchestration, and no doubt the brevity of the lieder were very appealing to me. The lack of overbearing angst and self-absorption reminded me of snatches of Symphony 1 but no other Mahler symphony I've heard so far. Terrific stuff; I could have easily listened to the whole song cycle. Is this the Mahler breakthrough I'm looking for? What symphony should I tackle next?

There is no (or only a little) "overbearing angst and self-absorption" in the Fourth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1157)and the Ninth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)Symphonies. Symphonies 1 through 4 are the "Wunderhorn" Symphonies; drawing on themes from that (non-) cycle*... Three is a strange beast for a newcomer.... though the last movement has what it takes to squeeze tears from a stone. Second is grand, bordering pompous... the First tempestuous, wild; the Fourth (relatively) serene.

(* The only Song Cycle Mahler declared a cycle and wanted it performed as such are the Kindertotenlieder.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2011, 02:46:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 28, 2011, 02:04:04 PM
There is no (or only a little) "overbearing angst and self-absorption" in the Fourth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1157)and the Ninth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)Symphonies. Symphonies 1 through 4 are the "Wunderhorn" Symphonies; drawing on themes from that (non-) cycle*... Three is a strange beast for a newcomer.... though the last movement has what it takes to squeeze tears from a stone. Second is grand, bordering pompous... the First tempestuous, wild; the Fourth (relatively) serene.

(* The only Song Cycle Mahler declared a cycle and wanted it performed as such are the Kindertotenlieder.)

Thanks, sir! 1 is an old friend; 2 drives me up the wall until that glorious finish. I will definitely try No 4 now, and am attending a performance of No 3 live in Warsaw (WPO/Wit) in two weeks, so we'll see how that turns out.

By the way, the baritone was supposed to be Christian Gerhaher, whom I'd hyped up to my visiting and attending father, but Gerhaher was indisposed and Muller-Brachmann jumped quite admirably into the breach.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2011, 02:53:29 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2011, 02:46:41 PM
Thanks, sir! 1 is an old friend; 2 drives me up the wall until that glorious finish. I will definitely try No 4 now, and am attending a performance of No 3 live in Warsaw (WPO/Wit) in two weeks, so we'll see how that turns out.

By the way, the baritone was supposed to be Christian Gerhaher, whom I'd hyped up to my visiting and attending father, but Gerhaher was indisposed and Muller-Brachmann jumped quite admirably into the breach.

Obviously I think Gerhaher is the bee's knees and then some (see the most recent WETA column (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=3151)), but Mueller Brachmann is really fine. A different style baritone; somber... Reminds me of Fischer-Dieskau minus the manneredness.
Have fun with the Third.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on May 28, 2011, 02:56:45 PM
Yes Brian try 4, and also try Kindertotenlieder, despite the subject is beautiful and not over wrought.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 28, 2011, 02:57:09 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 28, 2011, 02:04:04 PM
There is no (or only a little) "overbearing angst and self-absorption" in the Fourth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1157)and the Ninth (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1454)Symphonies. Symphonies 1 through 4 are the "Wunderhorn" Symphonies; drawing on themes from that (non-) cycle*... Three is a strange beast for a newcomer.... though the last movement has what it takes to squeeze tears from a stone. Second is grand, bordering pompous... the First tempestuous, wild; the Fourth (relatively) serene.

(* The only Song Cycle Mahler declared a cycle and wanted it performed as such are the Kindertotenlieder.)
The 4th yes, but the 9th?...  ???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2011, 03:03:36 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 28, 2011, 02:53:29 PMMueller Brachmann is really fine. A different style baritone; somber... Reminds me of Fischer-Dieskau minus the manneredness.

Yes, but his "cuckoo" sound effects brought a smile to the face, too. I didn't miss Gerhaher, which was a very good thing.

Thanks for the further comments, gents! Carry on discussing :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 28, 2011, 04:27:13 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2011, 01:49:07 PM
What symphony should I tackle next?
4

& DLVDE
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 28, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
"Every time a hammer blow of fate sounds, an angel expediently surrenders to the darkness that resides in every soul."

Priceless.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 28, 2011, 06:24:40 PM
I just watched Claudio Abbado conduct Das Lied von der Erde, Berlin Phil, Jonas Kaufmann and Anne Sophie von Otter. A magnificent performance. Kaufmann sings like a man possessed (in a good way). He has to reach notes and conjure up so much vocal power during the first song that I was staggered by his artistry, which also includes a  palpable sense of introspection when called for. Beautiful, poetic singing. If Van Otter does not seem to have the vocal heft for this work, she more than makes up for it in artistry as well--intelligent word coloring and deep musicality at all times. She never-- at least in a video recording--seems overpowered by the orchestra, except at a couple of points where Mahler simply drowns out any soloist. And the orchestra, well it's in top form.

For some reason, Abbado avoided this work until now. I read somewhere that he had 'issues' with it, and I'd like to know what they were. I am guessing it has to do with the theme of the piece: the transitory nature of all life, including human, expressed through a profound love for the Earth and nature. Since he is now an old man who has suffered some serious health problems, I am guessing Abbado has turned to Das Lied finally because he may feel there won't be a lot of time left in the future.

I hope this performance is issued on DVD, so others can see it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on May 28, 2011, 07:07:57 PM
Quote from: klingsor on May 28, 2011, 06:24:40 PM
I just watched Claudio Abbado conduct Das Lied von der Erde, Berlin Phil, Jonas Kaufmann and Anne Sophie von Otter.
So was that this: http://www.myscreenevent.com/index.php?id=94 ? An interesting phenomenon.  Glyndebourne's Die Meistersinger is due up in June.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 29, 2011, 03:26:45 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 28, 2011, 07:07:57 PM
So was that this: http://www.myscreenevent.com/index.php?id=94 ? An interesting phenomenon.  Glyndebourne's Die Meistersinger is due up in June.

Yes that is it. I have not yet heard the 10th Adagio. Anyone can pm me if they want links do download the video
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2011, 07:19:08 AM
I have been trying for years to get hold of Mahler Das Lied with Jessye Norman and Jon Vickers, Colin Davis conducting. It was not greatly admired as Vickers, even 30 years ago, was clearly past his best. I had it on a Phillips LP disposed of 25 years ago; but have now run it to earth second hand. The DG/Universal site supposedly had it available to download, but no dice, nothing to click to make it happen.

It is all round better than I had recalled. Vickers does fairly well in the first song, apart from being unable to articulate the grace notes, which he fudges. But he achieves the epic quality it needs and the doom laden atmosphere is well evoked. In the third, Davis is much too fast and Vickers wild. The fifth song is rather better paced allowing Vickers the verbal acuity he was famous for. But he does suddenly blast a couple of phrases at you. Ten years earlier, but then Norman would not have been his partner.

This was Norman's first take on the work, I have long enjoyed her plushness in the much later Levine version. Here in the second song, 'The Lonely One in Autumn', Davis produces a chilly, remote atmosphere. In the forth, there is a sensible speed for the young men on their horses and a lot of detail laid out both in the orchestra and by Norman. The final song is very long at 35 minutes, it holds together and the LSO players are characterful, filling out the plangent woodwind phrasing, Davis encourages some rasping brass chords. Despite it being a song symphony, the long orchestral passage half way through that last song is often my favourite part and Davis encompases a whole symphony in the passage. Mystery and regret heavily emphesised. It is moving and Norman's voice fits the piece as well as any, solemn, reflective, burnished.

The sound is excellent and close and detailed. I think the disc has been underrated, not perfect, but certainly worth looking out for.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2011, 07:35:02 AM
Quote from: knight66 on May 29, 2011, 07:19:08 AM
The sound is excellent and close and detailed. I think the disc has been underrated, not perfect, but certainly worth looking out for.
Mike

Thanks for the review, Mike. Sounds interesting. I found a used copy for a decent price.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 29, 2011, 07:39:46 AM
Do let me know what you think....I am going through that last song yet again. It almost becomes like the narcotic Tristan that Carlos Kleiber produced.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 29, 2011, 10:26:43 AM
Never cared  for Vickers's voice, but here it is....

[asin]B0000040W8[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 29, 2011, 07:05:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2011, 01:49:07 PM
Just saw seven songs excerpted from Des Knaben Wunderhorn by Hanno Muller-Brachmann, LPO, Jurowski. ... The lack of overbearing angst and self-absorption reminded me of snatches of Symphony 1 but no other Mahler symphony I've heard so far. Terrific stuff; I could have easily listened to the whole song cycle. Is this the Mahler breakthrough I'm looking for? What symphony should I tackle next?

As mentioned, the 4th. I also recommend the 7th, my own favourite, though the finale doesn't always succeed. You should also hear the 2nd, "Resurrection"; there's some angst in it, but also a great diversity of delightful music, and a powerful choral ending.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2011, 01:06:06 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 29, 2011, 07:05:42 PM
As mentioned, the 4th. I also recommend the 7th, my own favourite, though the finale doesn't always succeed. You should also hear the 2nd, "Resurrection"; there's some angst in it, but also a great diversity of delightful music, and a powerful choral ending.

How is the 7th not brimming with "overbearing angst and self-absorption"? The Sixth is my favorite, by some measure, but I'd never recommend it after what he said. Never mind that the 7th is probably the hardest to make sense of, of the whole lot. (Even if your relationship with it proves to be an exception.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 30, 2011, 01:20:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2011, 01:06:06 AM
How is the 7th not brimming with "overbearing angst and self-absorption"? The Sixth is my favorite, by some measure, but I'd never recommend it after what he said. Never mind that the 7th is probably the hardest to make sense of, of the whole lot. (Even if your relationship with it proves to be an exception.)

I really don't understand this reaction. For me, the 7th is a glorious fantasia - yes, it has its shadows, but the overall feeling is of fairytale delight.  (Possibly the recording you have works against this?)

OTOH, the 9th, which you recommended, is to me a great ennervation in four acts - I have to be in the right mood to hear it, and it usually leaves me in a rather grey and unhappy mood. I'm listening to the last minutes of the Bertini recording right now, just to make sure of my reaction - I indeed remembered correctly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2011, 01:24:10 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 30, 2011, 01:20:10 AM
I really don't understand this reaction. For me, the 7th is a glorious fantasia - yes, it has its shadows, but the overall feeling is of fairytale delight.  (Possibly the recording you have works against this?


I think I agree. The 7th is a beautiful return to the soundworld of the Wunderhorn symphonies by someone now too old to be so innocent, which adds the dark colouring. I find it enchanting. And the opening movement is one of the best things Mahler ever did.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2011, 01:43:01 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 30, 2011, 01:20:10 AM
I really don't understand this reaction. For me, the 7th is a glorious fantasia - yes, it has its shadows, but the overall feeling is of fairytale delight.  (Possibly the recording you have works against this?)

You are joking*, right?  No, I don't think that's the problem.  ;)

Quote
OTOH, the 9th, which you recommended, is to me a great ennervation in four acts ...

I recommended it because if you skip three movements and get to the Adagio... it ends on a note that is unique in Mahler, which is to say: exclamation marks, not question marks. It's the bit where Mahler comes closest to Bruckner... to acceptance.



*Kubelik DG, Kubelik Audite, Bernstein DG, Bernstein Sony, Abbado BPh, Abbado CSO, Abbado Lucerne, Boulez, Sinopoli, Gielen, Rattle, MTT SFSO, MTT London, Gergiev, Kondrashin, Svetlanov, Barenboim, Inbal, Schwarz, Klemperer, Chailly, Zinman, Haitink Christmas, Jansons Oslo, Jansons BRSO, Neumann Leipzig, Barbirolli BBC, N.Jaervi Hague, Scherchen, Piano 4H





Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 30, 2011, 06:11:59 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2011, 01:43:01 AM
You are joking*, right?  No, I don't think that's the problem.  ;)

*Kubelik DG, Kubelik Audite, Bernstein DG, Bernstein Sony, Abbado BPh, Abbado CSO, Abbado Lucerne, Boulez, Sinopoli, Gielen, Rattle, MTT SFSO, MTT London, Gergiev, Kondrashin, Svetlanov, Barenboim, Inbal, Schwarz, Klemperer, Chailly, Zinman, Haitink Christmas, Jansons Oslo, Jansons BRSO, Neumann Leipzig, Barbirolli BBC, N.Jaervi Hague, Scherchen, Piano 4H

I was thinking in particular of late Bernstein, who tended to work against practically everything he performed (IMVVHO).
I was reading through the Third Ear guide on this symphony last night: the reviewer humourously reported that Klemp was in this case so slow that collectors were given the impression their turntables were faulty!  The reviewer was interesting on the question of tempo relationships in this symphony, which he said were the great interpretive problem.  He was surprisingly harsh on Abbado CSO for this reason (his later recs were NA at the time of review), but OTOH gave Rattle far too much credit for "innovation".
I have Tennstedt, Masur Leigzig, Bertini, Bernstein Sony, plus a couple of lesser names I don't recall (had the Barbirolli but junked it). The one that converted me, and to which I usually return, is Tennstedt. (Be warned, his horn in the first movement does have intonation problems.)


Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2011, 01:43:01 AM
I recommended it because if you skip three movements and get to the Adagio... it ends on a note that is unique in Mahler, which is to say: exclamation marks, not question marks. It's the bit where Mahler comes closest to Bruckner... to acceptance.

Hmm... I've read in more than one place about the "sublimity" of this movement, but it's just not there for me. Honestly, I would recommend the 6th above the 9th in this matter, as it is at least more colourful and exciting (another one to argue about!).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 30, 2011, 06:28:54 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2011, 01:43:01 AM
I recommended it because if you skip three movements and get to the Adagio... it ends on a note that is unique in Mahler, which is to say: exclamation marks, not question marks. It's the bit where Mahler comes closest to Bruckner... to acceptance.

Try Zinman's recording: he treats the Adagio not as a fading of the light into eternal night (which is how some conductors seem to view it), but as a climb into serenity, sort of the soul's entrance into Heaven and the Light that never fades. 

The middle movements, no matter who the conductor is, sound rather like a German oompah band that is playing some waltzes after having rather too much of that gutes Bier.     Yet Mahler made it all work together, somehow.

As for the Seventh, I agree that's a relatively optimistic work,  in part because of the spell worked first by the Andante amoroso and then  by the finale on the rest of it: all the discomforts and possible horrors dissolve in an explosion of sunlight, just a like a good fairy tale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 30, 2011, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2011, 01:43:01 AM
I recommended it because if you skip three movements and get to the Adagio... it ends on a note that is unique in Mahler, which is to say: exclamation marks, not question marks. It's the bit where Mahler comes closest to Bruckner... to acceptance.
To me it's like trying to accept the death of the universe and all life. Like having it in your hand and trying to accept that it will slip away, but you never come to terms with it and it slips away anyways.

That's why I find it to be the most painful music in the world. When I listen to Pettersson, it's like living in prison, but accepting it as normal. When I listen to Shostakovich, it's like living in a Communist prison, but making fun of the officials in private. They're both dark, but have some sort of feeling of acceptance in their music. With Mahler's 9th, it sounds like he's constantly putting up a fight for something "higher", but never turns it into reality. The "acceptance" part is nothing like Bruckner- as we go to sleep, we may fight trying to go to sleep all we want, but eventually we succumb to it. In the ending of the 9th, it's simply him succumbing to death, not "accepting" it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 12:09:35 AM
Quote from: Greg on May 30, 2011, 06:42:32 PM
The "acceptance" part is nothing like Bruckner- as we go to sleep, we may fight trying to go to sleep all we want, but eventually we succumb to it. In the ending of the 9th, it's simply him succumbing to death, not "accepting" it.


I agree. The Ninth bleeds to death to these ears. No transcendence, no light, simply morendo and - gone.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 31, 2011, 12:23:31 AM
Quote from: Greg on May 30, 2011, 06:42:32 PM
In the ending of the 9th, it's simply him succumbing to death, not "accepting" it.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 12:09:35 AM
I agree. The Ninth bleeds to death to these ears. No transcendence, no light, simply morendo and - gone.

Kinda agree.

Das Lied von der Erde, Der Abschied: death in a transcendental light, with a new life glowing on the horizon, like an eternal repeat.
Symphony no. 9, Adagio: death as the end, an inevatable destiny, no matter our final resistance.

About the 7th: to me, it's character is similar to the 5th. From darkness to light. Overall, one of Mahler's optimistic creations IMO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 31, 2011, 12:34:17 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2011, 01:24:10 AM
I think I agree. The 7th is a beautiful return to the soundworld of the Wunderhorn symphonies by someone now too old to be so innocent, which adds the dark colouring. I find it enchanting. And the opening movement is one of the best things Mahler ever did.

In fact, it's my favourite Mahler movement. It offers everything he has to give.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 12:50:30 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 31, 2011, 12:34:17 AM
In fact, it's my favourite Mahler movement. It offers everything he has to give.


Come to think of it, it might be mine, too. Other eternal favourites: I-3; III-1, 2, 3; IV; V-3; VI; the rest of VII; VIII-1; IX-1; X.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on May 31, 2011, 02:21:01 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 12:50:30 AM

Come to think of it, it might be mine, too. Other eternal favourites: I-3; III-1, 2, 3; IV; V-3; VI; the rest of VII; VIII-1; IX-1; X.


IX-1 - Andante Comodo, that's still my favorite Mahler movement. I agree with some who say it's the greatest movement in all his music. I think it contains a whole world of experience --nothing specific, I hate all the Mahler-biography-tied-to-music stuff. I hear it as a titanic struggle between some kind of transcendent nostalgia and an annihilating force. Life vs death? perhaps, but I like to just hear it as music, some of the most deeply beautiful music I have ever heard (and I've been listening to 'classical music' for decades). Just my 2-cents, of course  :)
I love Mahler so much that it's easier to just say the only movement of his I don't love is VII-5, the finale that just doesn't work for me because it goes on too long...again, just my humble opinion
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2011, 08:23:51 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 31, 2011, 02:21:01 AM
I love Mahler so much that it's easier to just say the only movement of his I don't love is VII-5, the finale that just doesn't work for me because it goes on too long...again, just my humble opinion

I began reading that sentence exactly as the jubilation of the movement started. About 15 minutes to go now. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 31, 2011, 10:47:19 AM
Quote from: klingsor on May 31, 2011, 02:21:01 AM
I love Mahler so much that it's easier to just say the only movement of his I don't love is VII-5, the finale that just doesn't work for me because it goes on too long...again, just my humble opinion

I understand. I've always liked V-5 better. It somehow sounds more concentrated.
About movements that take too long IMO: I-IV & III-1.
Apologies for that 2nd choice, Jezetha. For the rest, I see we have much faves in common, like IV and VI in its entirety, and V-3, VII-1, VIII-1 & IX-1.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 11:18:51 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 31, 2011, 10:47:19 AM
I understand. I've always liked V-5 better. It somehow sounds more concentrated.
About movements that take too long IMO: I-IV & III-1.
Apologies for that 2nd choice, Jezetha. For the rest, I see we have much faves in common, like IV and VI in its entirety, and V-3, VII-1, VIII-1 & IX-1.

No apologies necessary. III-1 isn't exactly a marvel of concision. But as it wants to portray, if at all musically possible, the awakening of Nature, it needs a big canvas. And I think Mahler fills it very well. Of course it sprawls a bit and takes its time, but I don't mind...

--Johan
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 31, 2011, 11:34:44 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 11:18:51 AM
No apologies necessary. III-1 isn't exactly a marvel of concision. But as it wants to portray, if at all musically possible, the awakening of Nature, it needs a big canvas. And I think Mahler fills it very well. Of course it sprawls a bit and takes its time, but I don't mind...

Should have placed a ;) next to the apology. ;)
Apart from that: in some performances, maybe caused by the movement's length, it feels like Nature is falling asleep .... ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2011, 11:44:26 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 31, 2011, 11:34:44 AM
Should have placed a ;) next to the apology. ;)
Apart from that: in some performances, maybe caused by the movement's length, it feels like Nature is falling asleep .... ;D


:D  The God Pan in need of a reboot...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on June 01, 2011, 03:55:32 AM
Absolutely love M3-I. It's like M9-I, though utterly different, a world unto itself (to my ears). Even if M3-I sounds unwieldy (and it can in some perfs), it contains so many great moments that I never get impatient with it. In M3, I only get a little impatient with VI--the beloved slow finale that sometimes seems to go on too long for me
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2011, 04:07:05 AM
Quote from: klingsor on June 01, 2011, 03:55:32 AM
Absolutely love M3-I. It's like M9-I, though utterly different, a world unto itself (to my ears). Even if M3-I sounds unwieldy (and it can in some perfs), it contains so many great moments that I never get impatient with it. In M3, I only get a little impatient with VI--the beloved slow finale that sometimes seems to go on too long for me


That's right. It's a symphony-within-a-symphony. And I love it for that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on June 01, 2011, 04:42:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2011, 04:07:05 AM

That's right. It's a symphony-within-a-symphony. And I love it for that.

I have always felt that is why Mahler designated the First Movement in M3 as Part One, and wants a long pause before the next movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 01, 2011, 04:45:09 AM
Quote from: klingsor on June 01, 2011, 04:42:05 AM
I have always felt that is why Mahler designated the First Movement in M3 as Part One, and wants a long pause before the next movement.

AFAIK he didn't so much want a long pause before the next movement... he merely didn't object to it. :-)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on June 01, 2011, 05:36:17 AM
M3-I was the first Mahler I've ever heard. I was spellbound. I played it over and over again. It's still my favorite Mahler movement, followed by the Adagietto from the 5th and the Funeral March form the 1st.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on June 01, 2011, 05:47:42 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 01, 2011, 04:45:09 AM
AFAIK he didn't so much want a long pause before the next movement... he merely didn't object to it. :-)

I have always heard that Mahler asks for the pause. From conversation with Natalie Bauer-Lechner:

QuoteI will make the first movement the first part and then have a long pause. Now I really
do want to call the whole piece "Pan, Symphonic Poems." . . .etc
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on June 01, 2011, 06:26:23 AM
Currently, these are my personal Mahler symphony favorites (in approximate order).  It could and likely will change in the next hour or day!!  :D

#6
#9
#7
#5
#10 (incomplete or complete)
#3
#2
#1
#8
#4
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 01, 2011, 07:45:06 AM
Quote from: klingsor on June 01, 2011, 05:47:42 AM
I have always heard that Mahler asks for the pause. From conversation with Natalie Bauer-Lechner:

Perhaps that was from early on in the compositional process when he was still thinking of programmatic titles?

It's the Second Symphony in which he specifically called for a long pause after the first movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: klingsor on June 01, 2011, 07:53:11 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 01, 2011, 07:45:06 AM
Perhaps that was from early on in the compositional process when he was still thinking of programmatic titles?

It's the Second Symphony in which he specifically called for a long pause after the first movement.

No actually he asks for a long pause after M3-I

QuoteWhen it is performed, a short interval is sometimes taken between the first movement (which alone lasts around half an hour) and the rest of the piece. This is in agreement with the manuscript copy of the full score (held in the Pierpont Morgan Library, New York), where the end of the first movement carries the inscription Folgt eine lange Pause! ('there follows a long pause')
Admittedly not in the published score, but for me the manuscript and Mahler's correspondence are enough to support it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on June 01, 2011, 08:51:43 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2011, 01:24:10 AM

I think I agree. The 7th is a beautiful return to the soundworld of the Wunderhorn symphonies by someone now too old to be so innocent, which adds the dark colouring. I find it enchanting. And the opening movement is one of the best things Mahler ever did.

The 7th has always been my favorite, too, though I have probably not managed to listen to the entire finale often, if I had the choice to walk away (i.e. at home). You can do the Seventh dark and you can do it semi-dark, and maybe you can even do an optimistic Seventh.

The most impressive Seventh I ever heard was in 1990 or 1991 at the Concertgebouw, Bernard Haitink visiting with the London Philharmonic (Haitink had only been away from the RCO a couple of years). It was pitch black, from the first timpani roll a couple bars in. The Scherzo was menacing, scary and the climax at the end of the cello-horn tune in the second Nachtmusik was hysterical.

One of the things I like about the Seventh is it is a very hard piece to reduce to cheap program talk. "When Mahler was writing this he was feeling X." You see this a lot, also on this thread, people who seem to have direct access to Mahler's thoughts and feelings and being able to put them in a few words, whereas Mahler himself needed hundreds of pages of music for it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2011, 11:31:37 AM
Quote from: Herman on June 01, 2011, 08:51:43 AM
The 7th has always been my favorite, too, though I have probably not managed to listen to the entire finale often, if I had the choice to walk away (i.e. at home). You can do the Seventh dark and you can do it semi-dark, and maybe you can even do an optimistic Seventh.

The most impressive Seventh I ever heard was in 1990 or 1991 at the Concertgebouw, Bernard Haitink visiting with the London Philharmonic (Haitink had only been away from the RCO a couple of years). It was pitch black, from the first timpani roll a couple bars in. The Scherzo was menacing, scary and the climax at the end of the cello-horn tune in the second Nachtmusik was hysterical.

One of the things I like about the Seventh is it is a very hard piece to reduce to cheap program talk. "When Mahler was writing this he was feeling X." You see this a lot, also on this thread, people who seem to have direct access to Mahler's thoughts and feelings and being able to put them in a few words, whereas Mahler himself needed hundreds of pages of music for it.

I am pleased to see we're in agreement here, Herman. That Haitink performance sounds very enticing... I wonder whether it was broadcast at the time, because then I am sure to have listened to it, too. Your final observation is highly interesting - I had never thought of the 7th in this way, but you are right, there isn't a 'big confession' going on in this piece and it defies easy analysis along emotional lines. As for the Finale, it depends on the performance whether it comes off as a half satirical send-up with really majestic and magical episodes or as just so much puzzling noise.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 01, 2011, 11:43:21 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2011, 11:31:37 AM


I am pleased to see we're in agreement here, Herman. That Haitink performance sounds very enticing... I wonder whether it was broadcast at the time, because then I am sure to have listened to it, too. Your final observation is highly interesting - I had never thought of the 7th in this way, but you are right, there isn't a 'big confession' going on in this piece and it defies easy analysis along emotional lines. As for the Finale, it depends on the performance whether it comes off as a half satirical send-up with really majestic and magical episodes or as just so much puzzling noise.

In the YNS-BRSO performance in Leipzig (still available online??), the finale was zero-satirical, and it worked in amazing ways! Just WOW.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on June 01, 2011, 08:08:46 PM
I have not yet taken to the 3rd, except for the first movement and the bim-bams. For the rest, I don't think it's his strongest or best developed material. I have the impression of him trying to outdo his 2nd, but falling short.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on June 01, 2011, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 01, 2011, 06:26:23 AM
Currently, these are my personal Mahler symphony favorites (in approximate order).  It could and likely will change in the next hour or day!!  :D

Absolutely NO CHANGING in the middle of listening to a work!


Mine at the moment:

7
9
1
6
3
4
2
5
8
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on June 02, 2011, 12:44:55 AM
4-6-2-9-3-5......-8

Probably not my final words on the subject
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on June 02, 2011, 12:53:24 AM

Putting it roughly:  7, 2, 6, 4, 5, 10, 9, 1, 3, DLVDE, 8

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on June 02, 2011, 12:54:45 AM
Guess I nees to relsitem to the 7th - been a long time. And including the DLVDE would put it high on my list as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on June 02, 2011, 12:58:02 AM
Quote from: The new erato on June 02, 2011, 12:54:45 AM
I nees to relsitem

Is this Bokmal or Nynorsk?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on June 02, 2011, 12:58:49 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 02, 2011, 12:58:02 AM
Is this Bokmal or Nynorsk?  ;D
It's the local dialect crappola.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 05, 2011, 11:38:22 AM
Strictly speaking, this query ought to be in the Recordings area, I suppose . . . what is folks' experience with this commemmorative set?

[asin]B003BZC2RU[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on June 05, 2011, 12:06:32 PM
There's definitely some good stuff in that set: Kubelik's 1st, Mehta's 2nd, Boulez's 4th, Bernstein's 5th, Chailly's 10th and Das Klagende Lied are all recordings I think very highly of. (And that Quasthoff/von Otter/Abbado collaboration in the Wunderhorn songs sounds extremely tempting.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 05, 2011, 12:58:04 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 01, 2011, 08:08:46 PM
I have not yet taken to the 3rd, except for the first movement and the bim-bams. For the rest, I don't think it's his strongest or best developed material. I have the impression of him trying to outdo his 2nd, but falling short.
That one didn't click with me for the longest time, but when it did I fell in love.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 05, 2011, 11:38:22 AM
Strictly speaking, this query ought to be in the Recordings area, I suppose . . . what is folks' experience with this commemmorative set?
Quote from: edward on June 05, 2011, 12:06:32 PM
There's definitely some good stuff in that set: Kubelik's 1st, Mehta's 2nd, Boulez's 4th, Bernstein's 5th, Chailly's 10th and Das Klagende Lied are all recordings I think very highly of. (And that Quasthoff/von Otter/Abbado collaboration in the Wunderhorn songs sounds extremely tempting.)
What he said.  And Sinopoli's 7th.  And at $40, a terrific bargain.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on June 05, 2011, 06:18:11 PM
Quote from: edward on June 05, 2011, 12:06:32 PM
There's definitely some good stuff in that set: Kubelik's 1st, Mehta's 2nd, Boulez's 4th, Bernstein's 5th, Chailly's 10th and Das Klagende Lied are all recordings I think very highly of.

I've heard most of these and hated them! So won't be buying. Didn't like the EMI set either :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 05, 2011, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 05, 2011, 11:38:22 AM
Strictly speaking, this query ought to be in the Recordings area, I suppose . . . what is folks' experience with this commemmorative set?

[asin]B003BZC2RU[/asin]

I have (naturlich) both the DG and EMI box.  I think overall the DG box is stronger, and what is best in the EMI box--the well known historical recordings of the song cycles--can be easily obtained as separate CDs.   The only real drawback to the box (which also applies to the EMI version) is that you may already have a few of the recordings they chose to use.   

Other highlights of the DG box include Karajan's 9th and Hampson's recording with Bernstein of the song cycles.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2011, 02:52:51 AM
Sounds perfect for me, though, as I've never been a "Mahler collector" (I've three recordings of the Seventh, none of them the Sinopoli included here).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on June 06, 2011, 05:26:29 PM
Karl, do you have Tennstedt's 7th? You should.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 06, 2011, 08:16:50 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 06, 2011, 05:26:29 PM
Karl, do you have Tennstedt's 7th? You should.
[asin]B004OGDW4M[/asin]

Which one?  This one contains, besides the "official" cycle, live recordings of 5, 6, and 7.  (I haven't seen performance details, so I won't know the dates on those until I get the set later this month.)

EDIT:  Hopefully the link now works.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on June 06, 2011, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 06, 2011, 08:16:50 PM
[asin]B004OGDW4M [/asin]
Which one?  This one contains, besides the "official" cycle, live recordings of 5, 6, and 7.  (I haven't seen performance details, so I won't know the dates on those until I get the set later this month.)

That link didn't work for me.

It looks like EMI have got the rights to the BBC performance for their set. I haven't heard that one, just the one from the complete cycle.
The reviews for the BBC release go on about how Bernstein is the touchstone for this symphony, which is a load of bull.  >:(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 06, 2011, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2011, 02:52:51 AM
Sounds perfect for me, though, as I've never been a "Mahler collector" (I've three recordings of the Seventh, none of them the Sinopoli included here).

DG did an excellent job at picking actual- and consensus-favorites for this box... the only limitation perhaps being that they insisted on having a different conductor for each symphony -- when here or there one conductor might arguably have offered a "best solution" not just in one but two cases. (I'd like to think Sarge, one of our biggest Mahler-addicts of temperate and sound disposition, will more or less agree with this assessment.)
The only serious draw-back of this box is that Mahler collector's have all, or almost all, the performances therein. You may still not find every performance to your liking (either now or later, after you've been more thoroughly been infected with Mahleria), but that'll be due to subjective preferences, not any objective flaws with any of these recordings. In short: this box really does sound like an excellent pick for you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 07, 2011, 02:08:18 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on June 06, 2011, 10:07:34 PM
That link didn't work for me.

Sorry for that.  Link is now fixed (see below)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on June 07, 2011, 02:16:05 AM
Hey, it works now! I wasn't sure if it was me or not, because I usually browse with a bunch of options turned off, just for speed and lack of visual noise.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 07, 2011, 01:55:05 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 05, 2011, 07:46:29 PM
I have (naturlich) both the DG and EMI box.  I think overall the DG box is stronger, and what is best in the EMI box--the well known historical recordings of the song cycles--can be easily obtained as separate CDs.   The only real drawback to the box (which also applies to the EMI version) is that you may already have a few of the recordings they chose to use.   

Other highlights of the DG box include Karajan's 9th and Hampson's recording with Bernstein of the song cycles.

Quote from: jlaurson on June 06, 2011, 11:01:57 PM
DG did an excellent job at picking actual- and consensus-favorites for this box... the only limitation perhaps being that they insisted on having a different conductor for each symphony -- when here or there one conductor might arguably have offered a "best solution" not just in one but two cases. (I'd like to think Sarge, one of our biggest Mahler-addicts of temperate and sound disposition, will more or less agree with this assessment.)
The only serious draw-back of this box is that Mahler collector's have all, or almost all, the performances therein. You may still not find every performance to your liking (either now or later, after you've been more thoroughly been infected with Mahleria), but that'll be due to subjective preferences, not any objective flaws with any of these recordings. In short: this box really does sound like an excellent pick for you.

Agree with both of these. It's about as good a set you can get for the money. Apart from the very idiosyncratic but apparently universally beloved Bernstein VPO 5, all the choices stand up well to the competition and some are really top choice (well, I might also quibble about the Mehta 2, which I think hasn't aged as well as its supporters think, but that's me). The Kremer and friends take on the quintet movement was a surprising gem for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on June 09, 2011, 05:05:34 AM
Being somewhat behind the times, I noticed that the Gewandhaus/Neumann Mahler 5 has been reissued on Brilliant Classics. Is this the one that keeps cropping up in people's "best 5ths" lists, or is it a different Neumann recording which does?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on June 09, 2011, 05:15:56 AM
Quote from: edward on June 09, 2011, 05:05:34 AM
Being somewhat behind the times, I noticed that the Gewandhaus/Neumann Mahler 5 has been reissued on Brilliant Classics. Is this the one that keeps cropping up in people's "best 5ths" lists, or is it a different Neumann recording which does?

That's the one, also had brief appearance on Regis (that's where I have it) and multiple ones on Edel/Berlin Classics (currently very cheap in Germany).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 09, 2011, 05:35:32 AM
Hi everyone,

Mahler's 3, 4, 7 and 9 are ones that at some point have been considered my favorite, although the 3rd will always have the edge, still nothing like it in music, truly a one of a kind.

Funny Mahler story...was at a Dallas Symphony performance of Mahler's 2nd symphony, and about two-thirds through the first movement after the great climax, when it repeats back to the beginning of the movement, the crowd started clapping as if the piece was over!!! Poor Andrew Litten was waving his non-baton hand at the crowd as if to yell, "Stop!Stop! We are still playing!!" Very awkward moment.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2011, 06:29:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 06, 2011, 11:01:57 PM
DG did an excellent job at picking actual- and consensus-favorites for this box... the only limitation perhaps being that they insisted on having a different conductor for each symphony -- when here or there one conductor might arguably have offered a "best solution" not just in one but two cases. (I'd like to think Sarge, one of our biggest Mahler-addicts of temperate and sound disposition, will more or less agree with this assessment.)

I agree with you (and everyone else who's commented with the exception of eyeresist who is resisting the consensus  ;D ) although DG's edge over EMI is not overwhelming (remember the EMI has the Szell Wunderhorn, Klemperer 2 and DLVDE, Barbirolli 6, the DF-D/Furtwängler Wayfarer, the Baker/Barbirolli Rückert). Still, if I were in Karl's place I'd go for the DG: includes some of my favorites: Karajan 9. Solti 8, Boulez 4, Haitink 3, Kubelik 1.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 09, 2011, 07:09:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2011, 06:29:50 AM
(remember the EMI has the Szell Wunderhorn, Klemperer 2 and DLVDE, Barbirolli 6, the DF-D/Furtwängler Wayfarer, the Baker/Barbirolli Rückert).
Sarge

But all of those are available as invidual recordings in the GROC series, as well as Barbirolli's 5 and 9, except possibly the DF-D Furtwangler, which I think I've seen on the GAOC series.  In fact,  I have all those individual recordings except for the DF-D Furtwangler and the Ferrier-Walter Kindertotenlieder which is also in the EMI box, and is I think also available in the GAOC series.   Never underestimate EMI's devotion to re-releasing older recordings in as many versions as possible :)  And I think the Hampson recording of the song cycles, which is in the DG box, is equal to those in the EMI box.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 09, 2011, 07:12:31 AM
Clearly they have the sales numbers to look at and know what sells, but I would have thought Universal would have done better with a box of oddball recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2011, 07:15:08 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 09, 2011, 07:12:31 AM
Clearly they have the sales numbers to look at and know what sells, but I would have thought Universal would have done better with a box of oddball recordings.

Many of us thought that. We were hoping the "People's Choice" set would have included hard-to-get "oddballs." Alas, most people just voted for the usual suspects. Sad, and a needless reissue.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 09, 2011, 07:17:08 AM
Quote from: edward on June 09, 2011, 05:05:34 AM
Being somewhat behind the times, I noticed that the Gewandhaus/Neumann Mahler 5 has been reissued on Brilliant Classics. Is this the one that keeps cropping up in people's "best 5ths" lists, or is it a different Neumann recording which does?

The same. Very good stuff, indeed. As is his Seventh with the Gewandhaus.
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1230 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1230)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2011, 06:29:50 AM
I agree with you ... I'd go for the DG [too]: includes some of my favorites: Karajan 9. Solti 8, Boulez 4, Haitink 3, Kubelik 1.

I don't want to miss this opportunity to dump on Solti's 8th as one of the most overrated, least idiomatic Mahler records of all time.   ;)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1375)

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 09, 2011, 07:12:31 AM
Clearly they have the sales numbers to look at and know what sells, but I would have thought Universal would have done better with a box of oddball recordings.

This box was the right one to make, methinks. But to allow the "Mahler of the People" box to be a mere copy of this one... that's where they failed. They should just have issued a 'Great Rarities' box.

[Edit: I see, Sergeant was there first.]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2011, 07:23:13 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 09, 2011, 07:17:08 AM
I don't want to miss this opportunity to dump on Solti's 8th as one of the most overrated, least idiomatic Mahler records of all time.   ;)

I was expecting your backlash   :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 09, 2011, 07:26:16 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 09, 2011, 07:17:08 AMThis box was the right one to make, methinks. But to allow the "Mahler of the People" box to be a mere copy of this one... that's where they failed. They should just have issued a 'Great Rarities' box.

The people's choice was a good gimmick, but it has the same problem as in our democracy, "the people" tend to be idiots.   :P   Universal should have taken a page from the banana republics, held the election then tampered with the results to make the set they wanted.   Why not, there is no legal mandate for record companies to follow their own polls.   But I can picture Jimmy Carter on CNN, "we have discovered voting irregularities, certainly in the 6th and probably in the 7th and Das Lied von der Erde as well.  Everyone who tried to vote for Karajan was apparently told the server is busy."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 09, 2011, 07:27:40 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 09, 2011, 07:26:16 AM
The people's choice was a good gimmick, but it has the same problem as in our democracy, "the people" tend to be idiots.   :P

Don't be hatin' on American Idol!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on June 09, 2011, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 09, 2011, 07:27:40 AM
Don't be hatin' on American Idol!

(Never watch that bilge, myself . . . .)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 08:52:34 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 09, 2011, 07:26:16 AM
The people's choice was a good gimmick, but it has the same problem as in our democracy, "the people" tend to be idiots.   :P   

This was an amusing reply to Jens because he is one of "the people", his name is on the list! :D  Well I'll admit that I screwed up buying the people's edition, the big box that Karl got is better.  I'll order it and sell the people's edition.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 09, 2011, 09:04:34 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 08:52:34 AM
This was an amusing reply to Jens because he is one of "the people", his name is on the list! :D  Well I'll admit that I screwed up buying the people's edition, the big box that Karl got is better.  I'll order it and sell the people's edition.

These bastards put my name on the list... and I didn't vote for any (well, one -- Chailly's 10th, I think) of the symphonies in the box. In fact, I tried my bit to influence the voting... but my radio station didn't play ball by picking the topic up on the air. :-(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 09, 2011, 09:12:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 08:52:34 AM
This was an amusing reply to Jens because he is one of "the people", his name is on the list! :D  Well I'll admit that I screwed up buying the people's edition, the big box that Karl got is better.  I'll order it and sell the people's edition.

Well, only "the people" are only idiots in a statistical sense.  Sort of like, "I want to live in San Francisco,"  "I want to live in New York" so lets buy a house in Shawnee Oklahoma. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 09:12:45 AM
Ah well you tried Jens. :)  Still I think the concept of a fan choice is interesting... the only problem is since when do classical music listeners represent a uniform front?  If we tried that with say Bach's vocal (non-cantata) works we would end up with a mish-mash of MI, HIP and everything inbetween!  Actually that would be fun... :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 09, 2011, 09:32:56 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 09:12:45 AM
Ah well you tried Jens. :)  Still I think the concept of a fan choice is interesting... the only problem is since when do classical music listeners represent a uniform front?  If we tried that with say Bach's vocal (non-cantata) works we would end up with a mish-mash of MI, HIP and everything inbetween!  Actually that would be fun... :)

I remember a story on NPR about a person who circulated a poll about what people like and don't like in a song.  Then they hired composers to write songs which matched for most favorite and least favorite elements.    The song with least favorite elements featured rapping by a soprano opera singer over a polka band and cowboy guitar, or something along those lines.  The most favorite was more boring, something like an Aretha Franklin tune.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 09, 2011, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 08:52:34 AM
This was an amusing reply to Jens because he is one of "the people", his name is on the list! :D  Well I'll admit that I screwed up buying the people's edition, the big box that Karl got is better.  I'll order it and sell the people's edition.

Where is that list of names? I voted for a few and was asked whether I wanted my name included and I explicitly told them 'no' and asked to be removed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 12:52:23 PM
Quote from: MishaK on June 09, 2011, 11:57:25 AM
Where is that list of names? I voted for a few and was asked whether I wanted my name included and I explicitly told them 'no' and asked to be removed.

It's in the liner notes.  If you PM me your name I could check to see if it's in there or not tonight when I'm home.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on June 09, 2011, 01:42:42 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 09, 2011, 07:27:40 AM
Don't be hatin' on American Idol!

I could take that show more seriously if they actually represented the broad spectrum of music, not just pop and country.  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 04:18:06 PM
Quote from: JetsNut on June 09, 2011, 01:42:42 PM
I could take that show more seriously if they actually represented the broad spectrum of music, not just pop and country.  ::)

Hey Ray, do you guys have Canadian Idol? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on June 09, 2011, 04:20:49 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 09, 2011, 04:18:06 PM
Hey Ray, do you guys have Canadian Idol? ;D ;D

Yup, and I've never, ever watched it.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Parsifal on June 10, 2011, 03:16:11 AM
My name is in the CD booklet because I chose to vote. Did I think the results would be a revelation of originality? No. Some of the recordings I voted for are consensus good or great performances, but none of the unusual ones I liked made it to the set. A few of the recordings that made it are a bit overrated, imho (ALWAYS a subjective opinion, no matter who you are), but it's a solid 'safe' collection. I really only voted because I'm a Mahler freak and it's kind of fun to know my name is part of a DG collection, however minor my contribution may have been.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 10, 2011, 01:48:23 PM
They should have allowed people to vote only after actually listening to *all* the performances on the site.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 10, 2011, 01:49:16 PM
Is there a good collection of all of Mahler's orchestral songs?  I have more symphonies that I know what to do with, but a collection of songs would fill some gaps.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 10, 2011, 08:14:01 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 10, 2011, 01:49:16 PM
Is there a good collection of all of Mahler's orchestral songs?  I have more symphonies that I know what to do with, but a collection of songs would fill some gaps.

Like the symphonies, there's too many options.
Des Knaben Wunderhorn--my favorite is the one with Fischer Dieskau and Schwarzkopf, followed by D F-D doing it all on his own, with Barenboim and the BPO.  That comes (in my copy at least, which is a fairly old one) with  the Wayfarer songs.  I haven't heard the relatively recent ones by Boulez, Thomas and Hampson.
Wayfarer/Kindertotenlieder/Ruckert Lieder--my favorite is Hampson conducted by Bernstein, and Baker conducted by Barbirolli.   But there's also Boulez conducting Quasthoff, von Otter and Urmana in one cycle
each.
Das Lied von der Erde--you're on your own there. 
There is this one, which omits the Ruckert Lieder.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C3VT928HL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And although you asked about orchestral songs,  don't forget about Christian Gerharer's two CDs of the piano versions (or in the case of Kindertotenlieder, Schonberg's arrangment for chamber ensemble).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 12, 2011, 02:27:26 PM
I'll second Baker/Barbirolli.  For DKW I like recent Chailly/Bonney/Goerne.  DLVDE--The classic for me is Klemperer/Ludwig/Wunderlich, but Boulez/Urmana/Schade and MTT/Hampson/Skelton are strong contenders.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 12, 2011, 02:46:47 PM
Has anyone noticed a strange technical flaw in Abbado's first version of Mahler's Symphony No. 9? I recently bought the 1995 box set, and have become captivated by this version of the 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic.

However, I'm noticing the strangest technical glitch I've ever found on a CD. Instead of being divided into four tracks, one per movement, the 9th Symphony is broken into 31 separate tracks. And on more than one occasion, the volume goes up or down for no apparent reason as one track gives way to the next.

In Movement 1, volume goes down as track marked "Schattenhaft" fades into track marked "Etwas Fliessender."

In Mov. 3, the volume goes down as "Clarinets" passes into "Tempo 1, Subito."

In Mov. 4, volume goes up as "A Tempo" passes into "Stets Sehr Gehalten," then back down again as "Stets Sehr Gehalten" transitions into "Fliessender, Doch Durchaus Nicht Eilend."

Has anyone else noticed this, either in this set or in the original CD from the 1980s?

It's a wonderful performance, maybe my favorite. What a shame it's marred by this technical flaw.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 12, 2011, 02:48:32 PM
No (don't have it), but I love Diebenkorn.  ;D 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 12, 2011, 02:56:29 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 12, 2011, 02:48:32 PM
No (don't have it), but I love Diebenkorn.  ;D 8)
Isn't Diebenkorn wonderful? I love his Ocean Park series.

http://www.google.com/search?q=diebenkorn+ocean+park&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=s9E&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=AUT1Tf2BH8LVgQegqsnOCw&ved=0CBkQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=724
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 12, 2011, 02:59:57 PM
Quote from: Jay F on June 12, 2011, 02:56:29 PM
Isn't Diebenkorn wonderful? I love his Ocean Park series.

http://www.google.com/search?q=diebenkorn+ocean+park&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=s9E&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=AUT1Tf2BH8LVgQegqsnOCw&ved=0CBkQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=724
Yeah yeah!  Nice collection of jpegs!  Are you from the Bay Area?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 12, 2011, 03:03:06 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 10, 2011, 08:14:01 PM
Like the symphonies, there's too many options.
Des Knaben Wunderhorn--my favorite is the one with Fischer Dieskau and Schwarzkopf, followed by D F-D doing it all on his own, with Barenboim and the BPO.  That comes (in my copy at least, which is a fairly old one) with  the Wayfarer songs.  I haven't heard the relatively recent ones by Boulez, Thomas and Hampson.
Wayfarer/Kindertotenlieder/Ruckert Lieder--my favorite is Hampson conducted by Bernstein, and Baker conducted by Barbirolli.   But there's also Boulez conducting Quasthoff, von Otter and Urmana in one cycle
each.
Das Lied von der Erde--you're on your own there. 
There is this one, which omits the Ruckert Lieder.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C3VT928HL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And although you asked about orchestral songs,  don't forget about Christian Gerharer's two CDs of the piano versions (or in the case of Kindertotenlieder, Schonberg's arrangment for chamber ensemble).

Thanks for the helpful comments!

Getting these pieces is a confusing enterprise since some can be sung by male or female voices.

DLvDE I have covered by Barenboim/CSO/Meier/Jerusalem and Karajan/Ludwig/Kollo, perhaps some others, I've  lost track of which Mahler cycles include DLvDE.

Dieder eines fahrende Gessellen by Fischer-Dieskau/Kubelik and Baker/Barbirolli

Knaben Wunderhorn by Fischer/Dieskay/Schwartz/Szell

Kindertotenlieder by Ferrier/Walter, Baker/Barbirolli and Karajan/Ludwig

Ruckert Lieder by Karajan/Ludwig and Baker/Barbirolli

The only one I do not have at all is Das Klangende Lied, and I'm trying to decide between Chailly and Tilson-Thomas.  I'm leaning towards Chailly because it is on a 2-fer which has various other bits of Mahler Lieder.  I also think another Knaben Wunderhorn may be in order and I think that Haitink collection, which will fill the gap an give good coverage of other pieces.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 12, 2011, 03:05:22 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 12, 2011, 02:59:57 PM
Yeah yeah!  Nice collection of jpegs!  Are you from the Bay Area?

No, I live in Pittsburgh, PA. Grew up in NJ. Lived in Ocean Park once, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on June 12, 2011, 03:16:54 PM
Quote from: Herman on June 01, 2011, 08:51:43 AM
[....]
One of the things I like about the Seventh is it is a very hard piece to reduce to cheap program talk. "When Mahler was writing this he was feeling X." You see this a lot, also on this thread, people who seem to have direct access to Mahler's thoughts and feelings and being able to put them in a few words, whereas Mahler himself needed hundreds of pages of music for it.

IMHO, it's simply impossible to put music into words in a really satisfying way. Period.

So, in that case, I could describe this board as being useless. :P

Most people here are writing about their own thoughts and feelings, I guess. In general I'm not unhappy about the fact that their attributions don't last HUNDREDs of pages. ;)

Problem with Mahler and his music is: he himself also used HUNDREDs of pages and efforts to describe in words what his music meant, wanting both to be iconoclastic and understood, adding programs and explanations, then withdrawing them or adding them again, changing movements, writing exhaustively in letters and talking to friends and foes about what his music meant, et cetera and et al.
In a way, with all his struggling to find the right notes for the right feelings, thoughts & descriptions and vice versa, I feel that Mahler himself has proven that music is a language of its own, and that he has invited us all to struggle and experience the same. Hence this thread of more than one HUNDRED pages. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 12, 2011, 03:43:29 PM
Quote from: Jay F on June 12, 2011, 03:05:22 PM
No, I live in Pittsburgh, PA. Grew up in NJ. Lived in Ocean Park once, though.
So is that where you learned to love Diebenkorn?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 12, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 12, 2011, 03:03:06 PM
Thanks for the helpful comments!
The only one I do not have at all is Das Klangende Lied, and I'm trying to decide between Chailly and Tilson-Thomas.  I'm leaning towards Chailly because it is on a 2-fer which has various other bits of Mahler Lieder.  I also think another Knaben Wunderhorn may be in order and I think that Haitink collection, which will fill the gap an give good coverage of other pieces.

I don't know off the top of my head... but I seem to ... wait, no... yes... both of those performances are of the THREE-part "Klagende Lied".  (Part 1 was suppressed by Mahler, but whereas his last wishes seem to be the overriding argument in matters Sixth Symphony, here they are cast aside and the 3-part version is now the only one performed & recorded.) In any case, Chailly is superior... and the added Wunderhorn (3), Ruecker (5), Wayfarer (4) and Kindertoten-lieder (all 5, that being Mahler's only actual cycle) with Fassbaender are very, very good.

Not half bad is the disc with Masur / Gewandhaus and Suitner / StaKap Berlin on Berlin Classics where Siegfried Lorenz sings the Kindertotenlieder, Wayfarer 1-4, Rueckert, and four Wunderhorn Lieder. And by "not half bad" I mean: Overlooked, different, excellent, cheap.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gyxSnTajL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Mahler
Orchestral Songs
Siegfried Lorenz
K.Masur, O.Suitner
Berlin Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JJS7ES/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 12, 2011, 05:59:23 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 12, 2011, 03:43:29 PM
So is that where you learned to love Diebenkorn?

No, actually, I knew someone who owned an art gallery in NY who had some of his paintings. I used to go to NY galleries and the museums a lot when I was younger.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 12, 2011, 07:02:49 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
I don't know off the top of my head... but I seem to ... wait, no... yes... both of those performances are of the THREE-part "Klagende Lied".  (Part 1 was suppressed by Mahler, but whereas his last wishes seem to be the overriding argument in matters Sixth Symphony, here they are cast aside and the 3-part version is now the only one performed & recorded.) In any case, Chailly is superior... and the added Wunderhorn (3), Ruecker (5), Wayfarer (4) and Kindertoten-lieder (all 5, that being Mahler's only actual cycle) with Fassbaender are very, very good.

Not half bad is the disc with Masur / Gewandhaus and Suitner / StaKap Berlin on Berlin Classics where Siegfried Lorenz sings the Kindertotenlieder, Wayfarer 1-4, Rueckert, and four Wunderhorn Lieder. And by "not half bad" I mean: Overlooked, different, excellent, cheap.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gyxSnTajL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Mahler
Orchestral Songs
Siegfried Lorenz
K.Masur, O.Suitner
Berlin Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JJS7ES/goodmusicguide-20)

Thanks for the interesting comments!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 12, 2011, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
I don't know off the top of my head... but I seem to ... wait, no... yes... both of those performances are of the THREE-part "Klagende Lied".  (Part 1 was suppressed by Mahler, but whereas his last wishes seem to be the overriding argument in matters Sixth Symphony, here they are cast aside and the 3-part version is now the only one performed & recorded.) In any case, Chailly is superior... and the added Wunderhorn (3), Ruecker (5), Wayfarer (4) and Kindertoten-lieder (all 5, that being Mahler's only actual cycle) with Fassbaender are very, very good.

Not half bad is the disc with Masur / Gewandhaus and Suitner / StaKap Berlin on Berlin Classics where Siegfried Lorenz sings the Kindertotenlieder, Wayfarer 1-4, Rueckert, and four Wunderhorn Lieder. And by "not half bad" I mean: Overlooked, different, excellent, cheap.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gyxSnTajL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Mahler
Orchestral Songs
Siegfried Lorenz
K.Masur, O.Suitner
Berlin Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JJS7ES/goodmusicguide-20)

My enjoyment of the Chailly is marred by the fact that he uses a boy soprano.  Is that something which Mahler wrote and everyone else ignored, or some artistic decision on the part of Chailly?   
I also have the Thomas recording and the one made by Rattle (it's part of the EMI Complete Mahler box).  I don't like the Rattle for a multitude of reasons--it just sound wrong to my ears at a number of points, so the Thomas is perforce my preferred version.  I can't comment on the lieder included in the Chailly two-for because I have it as part of the DG Complete Mahler box. 

I recently saw a two-for of Haitink's Third on Philips which was filled out by his recording of the two-part Klagende Lied.   Don't know if it's available in any other format.

On a completely unrelated tangent, does anyone have any strong opinions on Inbal's cycle?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on June 13, 2011, 01:06:38 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 10, 2011, 01:49:16 PM
Is there a good collection of all of Mahler's orchestral songs?  I have more symphonies that I know what to do with, but a collection of songs would fill some gaps.

This week's 'Building a Library' on BBC radio 3 was on Des Knaben Wunderhorn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011txw4

(starts 30 minutes into program)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on June 13, 2011, 04:14:50 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 12, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
[....]
Not half bad is the disc with Masur / Gewandhaus and Suitner / StaKap Berlin on Berlin Classics where Siegfried Lorenz sings the Kindertotenlieder, Wayfarer 1-4, Rueckert, and four Wunderhorn Lieder. And by "not half bad" I mean: Overlooked, different, excellent, cheap.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gyxSnTajL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Mahler
Orchestral Songs
Siegfried Lorenz
K.Masur, O.Suitner
Berlin Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JJS7ES/goodmusicguide-20)

This little gem is now available for a laughable € 3,39 at Amazon.de!!

http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000JJS7ES/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 13, 2011, 04:46:47 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 12, 2011, 07:08:39 PM
My enjoyment of the Chailly is marred by the fact that he uses a boy soprano.  Is that something which Mahler wrote and everyone else ignored, or some artistic decision on the part of Chailly?   
I also have the Thomas recording and the one made by Rattle (it's part of the EMI Complete Mahler box).  I don't like the Rattle for a multitude of reasons--it just sound wrong to my ears at a number of points, so the Thomas is perforce my preferred version.  I can't comment on the lieder included in the Chailly two-for because I have it as part of the DG Complete Mahler box. 

I recently saw a two-for of Haitink's Third on Philips which was filled out by his recording of the two-part Klagende Lied.   Don't know if it's available in any other format.

On a completely unrelated tangent, does anyone have any strong opinions on Inbal's cycle?

A boy-ALTO, please. I find it much less distracting than Bernstein's boy-soprano in his DG Fourth. Not at all distracting, actually, and with a beautiful voice.

The DKL exists in three versions if you wish: Original 3 movement, Revised 2 movement, and Hybrid Revised 3 movement (the second version with the Waldmaerchen tacked on).
I think I have all but the Boulez-collage (Sony), but can't even remember my memory of DKL/Rattle, for example. Chailly and MTT, I know, are Hybrid-3 Movement versions. Reasons of economy alone suggest the revised version over the original.  Is Nagano the only recording (un)available of the true original version with "Fernorchester"? I haven't got it... unfortunately.

I know that boy-soloists (S & A) were called for in the original... but no longer in the revised version. Chailly includes his boy alto "ad libitum", as indicated in the score... So he follows Mahler along optional paths; others opt not to do so.
It's just a little part in "Es klingt so traurig und doch so schoen"? No... the stanza right after that... Spielmann, lieber Spielmann something-something. [Edit: Right... the boy is the voice of the dead brother as it comes from the flute. One stanzas...  once in the second, once in the third part.]

Quote
From WETA: Gustav Mahler – Introduction (1.2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=745)

...There are just a few recordings of this work and of the few there are, fewer still seem currently, or easily, available in the U.S.. Sinopoli's* and Rattle's recordings are available as part of their complete box sets (DG, EMI), Michael Tilson Thomas' 1996 RCA recording is again attainable from San Francisco Symphony media, remastered in the hybrid-SACD format. Haitink's Concertgebouw Third, re-issued, happily comes with the two-movement verison of it. Inbal is hard to come by and Nagano out of print, but at least the excellent Chailly (Decca) is available again. At least that is more than just a few years ago, which is good because Das Klagende Lied is not only a beautiful work (whether in three, or—as revised—two movements), but also echt-Mahler. As such, it might even seem more confident than his First Symphony with its oversized, glued-on tail. In Das Klagende Lied can be discerned the seeds of material that Mahler would later harvest—notably for the Songs of a Wayfarer, but even as late in his career as when writing Das Lied von der Erde. [* Sinopoli's recording has since been made available via the ArkivMusic service]

The Haitink Third & 2-part DKL is excellent in part because of the smoothly flowing Third that it comes with... not a 'stunning' performance, but a wholly gratifying one... working, as Haitink often does, on subtlety. That format is the only way Haitinks DKL is currently available.

You'll be hard pressed to find really strong opinions on the Inbal Cycle... but I can give you my lighthearted opinion of it being one of the best and coherent. His Fourth is among my top three favorites... Seventh and Tenth are excellent.... and none are bad in any way. His problem, if you wish to put it that way, is that there are so many other cycles that, without being better, have other reasons that has them end up chosen over Inbal. Bernstein on Sony, for example, isn't really "better", but hey: it's Bernstein... which adds a flavor Inbal doesn't. And Bernstein DG is so OTT that it makes it special in a way Inbal is not. And Kubelik is the understated classic... not unlike Inbal is... but with the difference that Kubelik is the "classic", and Inbal is not. And Gielen has so many standout performances in his cycle that they make up for the weaknesses (Fourth, for example) and have it recommended over Inbal for being 'more interesting'. And Inbal doesn't have the RCO, so some people will choose Haitink and Chailly over him on that account. And so on and so forth. Doesn't make it a less superb cycle, though. Would choose it over Bertini and Neumann/CzPO and Zinman and Gergiev and whatever else is out there; the sound on DENON was exemplary for its time and still great.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 13, 2011, 06:53:56 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2011, 04:46:47 AM
A boy-ALTO, please. I find it much less distracting than Bernstein's boy-soprano in his DG Fourth. Not at all distracting, actually, and with a beautiful voice.


DG's track listings say "boy soprano".  Of course we know that track listings and liner notes are never wrong. ;)
(and thanks for the info on DKL)
I may be in a very small minority, but I actually like Bernstein's boy.    Or at least, I don't find it distracting and don't think it mars the performance. 

Quote

You'll be hard pressed to find really strong opinions on the Inbal Cycle... but I can give you my lighthearted opinion of it being one of the best and coherent. His Fourth is among my top three favorites... Seventh and Tenth are excellent.... and none are bad in any way. His problem, if you wish to put it that way, is that there are so many other cycles that, without being better, have other reasons that has them end up chosen over Inbal. Bernstein on Sony, for example, isn't really "better", but hey: it's Bernstein... which adds a flavor Inbal doesn't. And Bernstein DG is so OTT that it makes it special in a way Inbal is not. And Kubelik is the understated classic... not unlike Inbal is... but with the difference that Kubelik is the "classic", and Inbal is not. And Gielen has so many standout performances in his cycle that they make up for the weaknesses (Fourth, for example) and have it recommended over Inbal for being 'more interesting'. And Inbal doesn't have the RCO, so some people will choose Haitink and Chailly over him on that account. And so on and so forth. Doesn't make it a less superb cycle, though. Would choose it over Bertini and Neumann/CzPO and Zinman and Gergiev and whatever else is out there; the sound on DENON was exemplary for its time and still great.

Thank you.  Inbal will be the next cycle, then, after the Tennstedt box arrives (that's the new one from EMI with the extra recordings of 5, 6 and 7).

I think, btw, you may be underrating Zinman.  The only installment of his cycle I would call mediocre or worse is the 10th, and that may the fault of the version he uses (Carpenter's).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on June 13, 2011, 07:15:43 PM
Quote from: Jay F on June 12, 2011, 02:46:47 PM
Has anyone noticed a strange technical flaw in Abbado's first version of Mahler's Symphony No. 9? I recently bought the 1995 box set, and have become captivated by this version of the 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic.

However, I'm noticing the strangest technical glitch I've ever found on a CD. Instead of being divided into four tracks, one per movement, the 9th Symphony is broken into 31 separate tracks. And on more than one occasion, the volume goes up or down for no apparent reason as one track gives way to the next.
Pretty much describes my burned copy of Karajan's live performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on June 13, 2011, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 13, 2011, 04:46:47 AM
[....]
You'll be hard pressed to find really strong opinions on the Inbal Cycle... but I can give you my lighthearted opinion of it being one of the best and coherent. His Fourth is among my top three favorites... Seventh and Tenth are excellent.... and none are bad in any way. His problem, if you wish to put it that way, is that there are so many other cycles that, without being better, have other reasons that has them end up chosen over Inbal. Bernstein on Sony, for example, isn't really "better", but hey: it's Bernstein... which adds a flavor Inbal doesn't. And Bernstein DG is so OTT that it makes it special in a way Inbal is not. And Kubelik is the understated classic... not unlike Inbal is... but with the difference that Kubelik is the "classic", and Inbal is not. And Gielen has so many standout performances in his cycle that they make up for the weaknesses (Fourth, for example) and have it recommended over Inbal for being 'more interesting'. And Inbal doesn't have the RCO, so some people will choose Haitink and Chailly over him on that account. And so on and so forth. Doesn't make it a less superb cycle, though. Would choose it over Bertini and Neumann/CzPO and Zinman and Gergiev and whatever else is out there; the sound on DENON was exemplary for its time and still great.

My memories from Inbal's cycle: very good and natural recording sound.
Highlights: a beautiful 4th (with Helen Donath!), an impressive 5th and a breathtaking choral ending of the 2nd (even though Doris Soffel never convinced me).
And, like all German broadcast orchestras, the Radio Sinfonie Orchester Frankfurt is very good!

Overall cycle: a bit uneven maybe, but hey: which cycle isn't?
(But I wouldn't choose it over Bertini though.)

Bought it some 10 years ago for around 25 euro .... and although I'm struck with flu right now, only that recollection makes me feel better. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 14, 2011, 01:21:01 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on June 13, 2011, 06:53:56 PM
DG's track listings say "boy soprano".

I think, btw, you may be underrating Zinman.  The only installment of his cycle I would call mediocre or worse is the 10th, and that may the fault of the version he uses (Carpenter's).

Alto all the same.  ;)

I may be underrating Zinman's Mahler... and in fact I've not even yet opened / heard 6, 8, 9, 10 (I like that he went for Carpenter, at least in theory). Among the others, I only thought the 3rd was special. In concert, however, his Sixth recently (Leipzig) was amazing. Very nearly convinced Riccardo Chailly to perform the symphony "A-S" in the future... though I tried to quell that thought immediately with a look of horror on my face and an amateur's passionate plea for "S-A". 

I like the idea of Bernstein's boy soprano... but the execution makes me want to shoot little innocent Seppi. The alto in Chailly's DKL is a different story altogether; a touch of 'boyish insecurity wobble' only at the beginning and then a clear-yet-reedy stable alto voice throughout his bit(s).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 14, 2011, 05:00:08 AM
Quote from: Greg on June 13, 2011, 07:15:43 PM
Pretty much describes my burned copy of Karajan's live performance.

Greg - I just discovered that that's exactly my problem. These flaws exist only in the files I ripped to my computer. The discs play fine. I'm listening to them now on headphones, and there's not a single issue. Everything plays fine.

Do you know why this happens on computer files? It's never happened to me before that I know of. I'm using iTunes 10.2.2.12 for Windows, FWIW.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on June 14, 2011, 06:13:51 AM
It probably has something to do with ripping in general, because I used Windows Media Player to rip and burn. You could try googling "ripping causes volume problems" or something like that, and you might be able to find an answer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 14, 2011, 06:49:41 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 14, 2011, 05:00:08 AM
Greg - I just discovered that that's exactly my problem. These flaws exist only in the files I ripped to my computer. The discs play fine. I'm listening to them now on headphones, and there's not a single issue. Everything plays fine.

Do you know why this happens on computer files? It's never happened to me before that I know of. I'm using iTunes 10.2.2.12 for Windows, FWIW.

I don't use iTunes, but some programs have a "feature" where they automatically adjust the volume of all tracks to a standard level.  Usually this feature can be disabled in some obscure dialog box which it takes 45 minutes to find.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 14, 2011, 09:37:39 AM
Quote from: Greg on June 14, 2011, 06:13:51 AM
It probably has something to do with ripping in general, because I used Windows Media Player to rip and burn. You could try googling "ripping causes volume problems" or something like that, and you might be able to find an answer.

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on June 14, 2011, 06:49:41 AM
I don't use iTunes, but some programs have a "feature" where they automatically adjust the volume of all tracks to a standard level.  Usually this feature can be disabled in some obscure dialog box which it takes 45 minutes to find.

Exactly. I found out I had a box checked in iTunes called Soundcheck, and that's what was causing the problem. To find it, go to Edit > Preferences > Playback > Soundcheck. Uncheck the box, and your music plays like the CD you ripped it from.

What was the point of breaking movements into all these smaller files? It's something I used to see it on some of my original CDs, but it went away eventually. That's what set Soundcheck off, that and the dynamic range in Mahler symphonies.

Thanks to everyone who helped me out with this. I had never heard such a thing before.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 14, 2011, 09:45:23 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 14, 2011, 09:37:39 AMWhat was the point of breaking movements into all these smaller files? It's something I used to see it on some of my original CDs, but it went away eventually. That's what set Soundcheck off, that and the dynamic range in Mahler symphonies.

I like the extra breaks in very long movements.  One of my first CDs was Karajan's Alpine Symphony, which had a single ~60 minute track.  Very annoying.  Later they reissued it with each of Strauss's cue points as a separate track, although the music remained continuous.  Even if you want to listen to the thing straight through, it is helpful to be able to look at the CD player and see where you are in Strauss's scheme.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 14, 2011, 07:31:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 14, 2011, 01:21:01 AM


I may be underrating Zinman's Mahler... and in fact I've not even yet opened / heard 6, 8, 9, 10 (I like that he went for Carpenter, at least in theory). Among the others, I only thought the 3rd was special. In concert, however, his Sixth recently (Leipzig) was amazing. Very nearly convinced Riccardo Chailly to perform the symphony "A-S" in the future... though I tried to quell that thought immediately with a look of horror on my face and an amateur's passionate plea for "S-A". 


I tend to think that Zinman's 3rd is the best of his cycle, but 9 gives it a very good run for the money.   No,  change that to 9 is the best  of the cycle, and 3 gives it a run for the money.  Chiefly because the last movement is one of the best performances I've heard.   I thought 6 was good, but not as good as others I've heard.  Of course, that may simply mean the performance you heard was better than the one actually recorded.    As for 8--well, it's fine enough but Ozawa need not be afraid that you've found someone to replace him in your heart.    As for 10--not sure if I don't like it because I'm simply unfamiliar with Carpenter's version or whether it's because Carpenter's version is not as good as the ones I'm familiar with (Cooke and derivatives thereof, and the Naxos recording of the Wheeler version).


Meanwhile,  the Amazon cat dragged in two plump Mahler goodies today for me:  the Wunderlich/Fischer Dieskau/Krips recording of DLvdE just released on DG, and the Tennstedt complete recordings set EMI just issued.    Someone speculated that the extra recordings of 5-7 in that box were with the BBC Symphony.  They're not; they all with the LPO,  live performances for the second cycle he didn't live to complete  Performance dates in order are
5-13 Dec 1988 [the same recording is part of EMI's Complete Mahler box] 6-4 & 7 Nov 1991  7-14/15 May 1993.  The rest of the box is the studio cycle, including DLvdE.

The Fritz and Dietrich show is vocally very good--first listen makes me think both do better here than on their more familiar recordings with Ludwig/Klemperer and King/Bernstein.  Since it's a live recording, there's some audience noise and what I think are some flubs in the horns and winds at one or two points.     The only real flaw is that the recording is mono--or else not very good stereo--the singers are recorded close but the orchestra often sounds rather flat and distant.  The booklet doesn't say which.   The performance itself was on 14 June 1964--ha! 47 years ago from tomorrow (or today by the time you probably read this).
Title: Dudamel in Mahler 8 - Feb. 4, 2012 in Los Angeles
Post by: bhodges on June 20, 2011, 12:35:47 PM
OK, this got my attention: just found out that Gustavo Dudamel will conduct the Mahler Eighth next February in Los Angeles, at the Shrine Auditorium. (FYI, the place seats 6,300 people.)

The Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra will be combined with the Simón Bolívar Symphony Symphony Orchestra of Venezuela - vocal soloists TBD - plus some fifteen choirs, for a total of over 1,000 people onstage.

http://www.laphil.com/tickets/performance-detail.cfm?id=4683

--Bruce

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 20, 2011, 12:47:08 PM
I wonder how it will go bringing so many choirs together. I have done it when combined with other choruses; BBC SO Chorus, Choir of Philadelphia Orchestra on another occasion; each time the sound was less incisive than if a single choir that is used to one another was involved. Different choirs respond differently depending who trained them.

But I am sure it will be exciting. I imagine there will be a DVD.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on June 20, 2011, 12:49:41 PM
Quote from: knight66 on June 20, 2011, 12:47:08 PM
I wonder how it will go bringing so many choirs together. I have done it when combined with other choruses; BBC SO Chorus, Choir of Philadelphia Orchestra on another occasion; each time the sound was less incisive than if a single choir that is used to one another was involved. Different choirs respond differently depending who trained them.

But I am sure it will be exciting. I imagine there will be a DVD.

Mike

Yes, quite true: the coordination of all those groups could be dicey. But given the venue (photos on the website below) it's certain to be an event. And I hope they film it.

http://www.shrineauditorium.com/index.html

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 20, 2011, 12:49:59 PM
I hope they distribute complementary aspirin tablets before the concert.   8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 20, 2011, 12:58:29 PM
It does look like an impressive venue. With this piece, there are no good performances; it is either terrific or an also ran. Some of the best ones I have been in are not necessairly the ones one would assume would be best.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on June 20, 2011, 01:06:33 PM
Quote from: knight66 on June 20, 2011, 12:58:29 PM
It does look like an impressive venue. With this piece, there are no good performances; it is either terrific or an also ran. Some of the best ones I have been in are not necessairly the ones one would assume would be best.

You are probably very familiar with it, it is the place they do the Academy Awards, Oscars, various Beauty Pagents, etc.  I don't know if the acoustics are any good.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 24, 2011, 04:56:17 PM

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NwquG2EGiYE/TgTqd1I7zGI/AAAAAAAABi0/XSfCusaVe9w/s400/MPhil_Nagano_M7.png)

Ionarts-at-Large: Mahler in Munich - Nagano's Seventh


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/ionarts-at-large-mahler-in-munich.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/ionarts-at-large-mahler-in-munich.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: techniquest on June 26, 2011, 12:08:32 PM
QuoteI like the idea of Bernstein's boy soprano... but the execution makes me want to shoot little innocent Seppi. The alto in Chailly's DKL is a different story altogether; a touch of 'boyish insecurity wobble' only at the beginning and then a clear-yet-reedy stable alto voice throughout his bit(s).
Bernsteins' boy singer (Helmut Wittek) does take a lot of getting used to and is nowhere near as good as Max Emmanuel Cencic on an obscure Nanut recording I have heard. He carries it off perfectly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on June 26, 2011, 12:12:59 PM
Quote from: Brewski on June 20, 2011, 12:49:41 PM
Yes, quite true: the coordination of all those groups could be dicey. But given the venue (photos on the website below) it's certain to be an event. And I hope they film it.

http://www.shrineauditorium.com/index.html

--Bruce

Large sections of the Eighth are very quiet, almost chamber-like. I wonder how that is going to work in a mammoth hall like this
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 26, 2011, 01:48:13 PM
Quote from: techniquest on June 26, 2011, 12:08:32 PM
Bernsteins' boy singer (Helmut Wittek) does take a lot of getting used to and is nowhere near as good as Max Emmanuel Cencic on an obscure Nanut recording I have heard. He carries it off perfectly.

Cencic of course went on to have a (just-budding) great counter tenor career.

I was mistaken with "Seppi" -- that's a boy soprano for Harnoncourt in his first Cantata Cycle somewhere.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on June 26, 2011, 02:47:48 PM
Cencic was definitely better than Wittek, but to me it still sounds like better idea on paper.

http://www.youtube.com/v/SCFuGG8MAWo
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on June 26, 2011, 08:57:56 PM
BBC Music magazine had a cover disc of M8 recently, conducted by Runnicles I think. I listened to the first half last night. It seemed a decent performance, but impossible to judge due to the awfully dull and unbalanced sound. I'd like to hear something besides the soloists, you know!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Amfortas on July 01, 2011, 03:23:01 AM
Hear a complete performance of the Mahler piano quartet movement as orchestrated by Colin Matthews:

http://www.rnw.nl/english/radioshow/dangerous-seducer (http://www.rnw.nl/english/radioshow/dangerous-seducer)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 01, 2011, 09:02:54 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51srYtdMtAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This new Mahler 2 has been given a standout rave review by Gramophone. The Ulricht is on the Gramophone site to listen to. It is a live performance and certainly the review reads like it should be a superb recording. I have ordered it: though I need another M2 like I need another hole in my head.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Amfortas on July 07, 2011, 02:05:31 AM
  ;) ;) ;) ;) HAPPY 151st BIRTHDAY! ! ! ! ! ! !  :) :)

(http://www.delo.si/assets/media/picture/20110701/670x420_mahler4.jpg)

New Mahler statue in Ljubljana, Slovenia, July 2011


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 07, 2011, 04:19:12 PM
http://www.carnegiehall.org/ch/pages/1-2-1-left.aspx?pageid=2147483701&id=4294967691

A Portrait of Mahler in New York
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 07, 2011, 05:42:42 PM
Quote from: Amfortas on July 07, 2011, 02:05:31 AM
(http://www.delo.si/assets/media/picture/20110701/670x420_mahler4.jpg)

New Mahler statue in Ljubljana, Slovenia, July 2011[/center]

Hmm, not very happy with that statue. Makes him look like a flasher.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on July 10, 2011, 08:57:28 AM
LINK (http://www.4shared.com/audio/gfBnLep_/Sehr_behaglich_Wir_geniessen_d.html)

I don't understand why Mahler always sounds appealing to me in excerpts but something about the way the whole work is stitched together tends to put me off. A friend messaged me while they were in town, asking for a small (mobile phone connection-friendly) clip of the 4th - I don't know why, maybe they heard it mentioned in conversation. So I made this clip for them, and found myself listening to is multiple times due to its beauty, and yet I know that if I go to listen to the full piece I won't reall enjoy it. Grrr :-X
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 10, 2011, 06:45:09 PM
Well, there's obviously something wrong with you  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2011, 05:25:26 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 10, 2011, 08:57:28 AM
I don't understand why Mahler always sounds appealing to me in excerpts but something about the way the whole work is stitched together tends to put me off.

Maybe his abrupt mood swings within movements disturb you? The juxtaposition of the serious and satirical, profound and banal, ecstatic and depressive. The music is the very definition of bipolar. One reason Bruno Walter didn't conduct the Sixth was because he couldn't understand why Mahler introduces the soaring Alma theme into the grim march. It made no sense to him. Maybe you have a similar problem with the music?

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on July 11, 2011, 07:39:01 AM
Aye, it might be. The movement orders of, say, 2 and 3 never seem to strike me with the crushing inevitability as I would like (also balance issues), and in the more classical later symphonies, a clear long line still wouldn't go amiss. I used to think that there was something in the composer's way of shaping themes and melodic material that grated me, but it could just be their presentation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on July 11, 2011, 07:41:10 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 11, 2011, 07:39:01 AM
Aye, it might be. The movement orders of, say, 2 and 3 never seem to strike me with the crushing inevitability as I would like (also balance issues), and in the more classical later symphonies, a clear long line still wouldn't go amiss. I used to think that there was something in the composer's way of shaping themes and melodic material that grated me, but it could just be their presentation.

Your objections are in line with my own prior caveats with Mahler, Sara. I don't know if I can be of much use to you, though . . . I think I just drank the Kool-Aid one day . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 11, 2011, 04:45:56 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 11, 2011, 07:39:01 AM
Aye, it might be. The movement orders of, say, 2 and 3 never seem to strike me with the crushing inevitability as I would like (also balance issues), and in the more classical later symphonies, a clear long line still wouldn't go amiss. I used to think that there was something in the composer's way of shaping themes and melodic material that grated me, but it could just be their presentation.

Perhaps this was Mahler's way of saying that there is not necessarily any "inevitability" or logical link between events in our lives.   

Of course, Mahler himself had problems figuring out the movement orders in several of his symphonies; as an instance, I recently read (don't quite remember where) that he thought the Andante of the 2nd didn't really belong in that symphony at all.  And of course there's the Scherzo/Andante of the 6th.....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 11, 2011, 05:44:01 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 10, 2011, 08:57:28 AM
I don't understand why Mahler always sounds appealing to me in excerpts but something about the way the whole work is stitched together tends to put me off. A friend messaged me while they were in town, asking for a small (mobile phone connection-friendly) clip of the 4th - I don't know why, maybe they heard it mentioned in conversation. So I made this clip for them, and found myself listening to is multiple times due to its beauty, and yet I know that if I go to listen to the full piece I won't reall enjoy it. Grrr :-X
Mahler's excess sometimes strikes me as self-defeatingly self-indulgent.  He not only makes a point, but makes it over and over again, bludgeoning his audience with one neurotic fetish after another.  In the hands of lesser musicians he's tiresome and tedious.  But in the hands of great musicians, when your attention is sharp and you can give yourself over to the music without drowsing off, the breadth and depth of his passion and his mastery of orchestration, drama, and song make for a musical experience like no other.

I happened on this terrific performance of the 2nd on youtube and thought of you.  See if this doesn't get your juices flowing!

http://www.youtube.com/v/HyeeRqZq7bE
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 11, 2011, 05:53:33 PM
What DavidRoss said. I still have uncertainties about Mahler's overextended movements, but when it's right, it's right.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lethevich on July 11, 2011, 07:30:08 PM
I love over-extended music (Bruckner's original version of the 3rd, Furtwängler's symphonies), and also histrionics (Tchaikovsky at his most unbound, Pettersson). From the cover blurb, Mahler should be my favourite composer. I suppose the secret is to just shut up and listen :) Danke for the suggestions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 11, 2011, 11:36:07 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 11, 2011, 05:44:01 PM

Mahler's excess sometimes strikes me as self-defeatingly self-indulgent....

self-indulgent? you haven't yet seen self-indulgent! ;D


http://www.youtube.com/v/YmkVaYYCVNQ
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 11, 2011, 11:45:16 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 11, 2011, 11:36:07 PM
self-indulgent? you haven't yet seen self-indulgent! ;D


http://www.youtube.com/v/YmkVaYYCVNQ
That conductor sure does get into it. Who does he pitch against next?  :o

EDIT: It looks like he is trying to swim, dance, pitch, jump (like a pogo stick), and conduct all in the space of 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: cilgwyn on July 12, 2011, 12:42:30 AM
He's no Nikisch!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 12, 2011, 07:58:15 AM
Thanks, Jens--I never knew Stephen Wright was also a conductor!

(http://standanddeliver.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/stevenwrightblog.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 12, 2011, 08:10:48 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 11, 2011, 11:45:16 PM
EDIT: It looks like he is trying to swim, dance, pitch, jump (like a pogo stick), and conduct all in the space of 10 minutes.

I especially like the rutting stork dance at around the eight minute mark.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 13, 2011, 10:12:14 AM
Now that I've gone through all of Solti's cycle (finally), I have to update my favorites list.  ;)

Let me (temporarily) update my (possible) favorite Mahler list:

1- Solti                   
2- Jansons                 
3- Chailly
4- Szell
5- Solti
6- Tennstedt
7- Solti
8- Solti
9- Solti
10- Chailly


Notes:
1- honestly, this was my first recording of the first. Other than the last movement, it's hard to tell apart recordings at all.
2- the only recording I have no complaints about, but... this was also my first recording.  ::)
3- clear choice for everything but last movement, which no one does better than Tennstedt.
4- clear choice... somewhat.
5- similar scenario to 9- "better than Chailly? I'll only be able to tell over time, but it really is that good."
6- clear choice.
7- depending on the day, I might prefer Gielen.
8- there might be a couple I haven't listened to enough that I thought I liked at least as much Solti's.
9- better than Karajan? I'll only be able to tell over time, but it really is that good.
10- clear choice.



So, obviously, many aren't so clear-cut. But still, his cycle is one of the best if you're looking for intensity and action. Still, he doesn't really sacrifice detail in order to achieve this, so it's a pretty decent balance of two things I appreciate. The only one I'd call a "dud" in this entire cycle is the 3rd, and then there are a couple that are just okay. Overall, though, this might be favorite set.



(i should note that again that before the last few days, I was very familiar with 1, 7, 8- the rest are new to me)...

(another note: 1, 2, 4, 7, and 8 are all first recordings- it'll take a while to see, but that's 5/10 on my list that are first recordings. More familiarity with other may change that eventually).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2011, 10:18:02 AM
Quote from: Greg on July 13, 2011, 10:12:14 AM
(i should note that again that before the last few days, I was very familiar with 1, 7, 8- the rest are new to me)...

So (like myself), you are new to the Mania?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 13, 2011, 07:24:33 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 13, 2011, 10:18:02 AM
So (like myself), you are new to the Mania?
lol, well, I was familiar with Solti's 1st, 7th and 8th, but the rest of the cycle ended up being even better than I expected.

One thing that I just realized after talking to my little brother was that the 6th is the only of his 10 symphonies that ends in a minor key. I just never thought of that until now...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Amfortas on July 14, 2011, 05:46:10 AM
 :o I am so deeply afflicted with Mahler-mania that I can't even participate in this thread. It's just Mahler, Mahler, Mahler almost all the time for me....that music....incredible....that Andante Comodo, that Stürmisch bewegt, mit grösster Vehemenz....no life without it....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 14, 2011, 12:00:47 PM
it'll pass
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on July 15, 2011, 05:02:19 AM
Quote from: Amfortas on July 14, 2011, 05:46:10 AM
:o I am so deeply afflicted with Mahler-mania that I can't even participate in this thread. It's just Mahler, Mahler, Mahler almost all the time for me....that music....incredible....that Andante Comodo, that Stürmisch bewegt, mit grösster Vehemenz....no life without it....
And a "nicht schleppend" and "etwas bewegter" to you, Amfortas.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Amfortas on July 15, 2011, 08:43:30 AM
Quote from: Jay F on July 15, 2011, 05:02:19 AM
And a "nicht schleppend" and "etwas bewegter" to you, Amfortas.

:D "Dunkel is das Leben, ist der Tod" back atcha!

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on July 15, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
Quote from: Amfortas on July 15, 2011, 08:43:30 AM
:D "Dunkel is das Leben, ist der Tod" back atcha!
Right now "Im Tempo Eines Gemaechlichen Laendlers" (M9, Abbado VP)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 15, 2011, 06:37:46 PM
Jens that was one of the funniest youtubes I've seen in awhile! :D  Thanks for that. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roberto on July 16, 2011, 07:03:42 AM
This was my new Mahler album this week:
[asin]B0000034LX[/asin]

I think I am going and give a chance to it.  :)
(I like Inbal's 3rd and 10th but I don't his 7th.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on July 22, 2011, 09:17:55 AM
Quote from: Greg on July 13, 2011, 10:12:14 AM
5- Solti

Try his later, digital remake, recorded live on tour in Vienna in 1990.

[asin]B0000041ZH[/asin]

Same impact, but more fluidity and color, and far better sonics. The one included in the complete Solti Mahler cycle is the old 1970 5th, recorded in Urbana-Champaign, which -- I admit is a bit more athletic, if that's what you want -- but is also seriously shrill, and the brass blow out the equipment in the climax of the scherzo, giving you just undefined noise.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on July 23, 2011, 08:54:44 AM
Mahler 2: LPO Jurowski live recording

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Vladimir+Jurowski+mahler

I am surprised no one has picked up on this performance. It got a rave review in Gramophone: which I know for some here may rule it out of court.

I have linked to a couple of other comments and sourced the best price I could find it at when I ordered it.

I know this best of all Mahler's symphonies and yet, as promised, it felt fresh and often raised goosebumps. There is a great deal of almost gossamer delicacy and elbow room without a moment of dragging. Overall the timing means it has to go onto two discs. But mere timings can be deceptive.

I love the rubato and the portamanto, neither of which sound like indulgences. The big moments are not underplayed. It feels organic rather than containing hysterical gear changes.

The orchestra sound is terrific and the recording is close in without undue highlighting of individual players.

The landler in the second movement is delicate rather than rustic. The dialogue of plucked strings quite playful. The third movement points and lifts the rhythms and the momentry drama towards the end of the movement comes through and makes its mark and the last two minutes shift like a mirage from playful to forboding.

I could go on. But really, I feel this is worth getting hold of, even if like me you thought you really did not need yet another Mahler 2.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 27, 2011, 06:30:45 PM
Quote from: MishaK on July 22, 2011, 09:17:55 AM
Try his later, digital remake, recorded live on tour in Vienna in 1990.

[asin]B0000041ZH[/asin]

Same impact, but more fluidity and color, and far better sonics. The one included in the complete Solti Mahler cycle is the old 1970 5th, recorded in Urbana-Champaign, which -- I admit is a bit more athletic, if that's what you want -- but is also seriously shrill, and the brass blow out the equipment in the climax of the scherzo, giving you just undefined noise.
Cool!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 07:57:29 AM
From: Havergal Brian, 'The Mahler Revival' (1930) in: Havergal Brian on Music, Volume Two: European and American Music, ed. Malcolm MacDonald, p. 83-85:


"Was there an absence of vitality in the music that caused the first impressions of the Bruckner and Mahler Symphonies to fade away so quickly? Such interest as remained from the pioneer performances has been kept alive by a few enthusiasts who possessed the scores. It is entirely a speculative question if the same repeated performances which followed the new works by Strauss had been given to Bruckner and Mahler, whether they would have just as quickly obtained a sympathetic and interested following as did Strauss. Supposing that the symphonic poems of Strauss and the symphonies of Tchaikovsky had met with the same indifference as those of Bruckner and Mahler, would there ever have been a public clamouring for them? A symphonic work cannot be thoroughly enjoyed or appreciated until it is really known. Intimate understanding is only gained by repeated hearing."


"We feel quite sanguine of the ultimate success of the Bruckner and Mahler symphonies."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 09, 2011, 06:06:21 PM
The Orchestra of Paris doesn't come to mind as one of the great Mahler orchestras, but y'all still might enjoy this:

http://www.christoph-eschenbach.com/mahler/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Amfortas on August 10, 2011, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 09, 2011, 06:06:21 PM
The Orchestra of Paris doesn't come to mind as one of the great Mahler orchestras, but y'all still might enjoy this:

http://www.christoph-eschenbach.com/mahler/

Thanks, some of these are quite good. I have them all and can recommend. The orchestra sounds very good. Eschenbach's Mahler 6 begins with a nicely scary quality. But I found his 9th begins too slowly and the Andante doesn't hold together very well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 11:20:25 AM
Quote from: Amfortas on August 10, 2011, 11:16:26 AM
Thanks, some of these are quite good. I have them all and can recommend. The orchestra sounds very good. Eschenbach's Mahler 6 begins with a nicely scary quality.


That whole performance is very good. I listened to it a few months ago thanks to the link provided here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 11:21:59 AM
Quote from: Amfortas on August 10, 2011, 11:18:10 AM
The recent and well-received performance of DAS KLAGENDE LIED from the Proms, in good audio.

Mahler: Das klagende Lied (original version)

Christian Tetzlaff (violin) Melanie Diener (soprano) Anna Larsson (mezzo-soprano) Stuart Skelton (tenor) Christopher Purves (baritone) Augustus Bell (treble) Matthew Lloyd-Wilson (treble) Oluwatimilehin Otudeko (treble) Theodore Beeny (treble) Thomas Fetherstonhaugh (treble) Timothy Fairbairn (treble) BBC Singers BBC Symphony Orchestra Edward Gardner (conductor)

3 Parts in 3 Files:

http://www.4shared.com/folder/gbGTp4tc/Mahler_-_Das_Klagende_Lied_-_B.html (http://www.4shared.com/folder/gbGTp4tc/Mahler_-_Das_Klagende_Lied_-_B.html)


Thanks! I am sure to listen to it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:51:01 PM
I am 20 pages behind. :'(

And that's after I'd caught up at some point, without posting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 10, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
I've been so pleased by some of Gielen's Mahler (specifically 2,3,&6) that I've been considering springing for 9 as well. Consequently I've been listening to some favorites among those I already have.  Earlier today, Barbirolli and Boulez, and now MTT.  Do I really need another?

Nah....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 05:37:19 PM
Quote from: knight66 on March 19, 2011, 03:04:10 AM
It has been published. I grabbed it yesterday. I was surprised it was with my old choir, the Edinburgh Festival Chorus.

Don't bother with it. Whatever excitements it holds there are two substantial problems. The main one is the poor sound. The choir is very distant, the sound is muddy and overall has a haze and little impact. The other problem is a fairly dire tenor: Simon O'Neill. He has the very occasional good note, but getting onto it and getting off it are painful for him and for us.

The conducting generates a lot of excitement and he provides periods of repose. Considering it comes from 2010, the sound is exceptionally disappointing. The Usher Hall is a difficult venue, but surely not more difficult than the Albert Hall. All three of the live Mahler 8s that I have from that venue, even one over 30 years old, are much better engineered.

What a letdown.

Mike

I'm still catching up, but let me (belatedly) note that I was actually there when that 8th was recorded.

It's sad to hear the sound quality didn't really deliver, and that tenor could've been better, but the sound must be terrible indeed if Erin Wall's spectacular (in the 'artistically sound' sense) soprano didn't deserve at least a mention!

Also of particular interest to me at the time - though again, the sound might blur that - was Runnicles' very 'Wagnerianly solemn' reading of both parts of the work. The way he brought the 'church music' (which it isn't), and the less contentious second half together under the same idiom was, given how rarely it's attempted, a very pleasant surprise.

In essence, it felt like Mahler's 8th delivered like a one-two punch, the traversal of a single block of symphonic music, rather than a compilation, enhanced by a very forceful vocal delivery from everyone involved (possibly related to the tenor issues).

It's a shame this didn't come through on disc, since it really was a very strongly argued performance.


However, I do think MTT used Erin Wall as well, and have been looking forward to acquiring his 8th ever since. If only the complete cycle didn't cost an absurd amount, I would've actually invested in it, given David's consistent praise.


Edit:

Quote from: DavidRoss on August 10, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
I've been so pleased by some of Gielen's Mahler (specifically 2,3,&6) that I've been considering springing for 9 as well. Consequently I've been listening to some favorites among those I already have.  Earlier today, Barbirolli and Boulez, and now MTT.  Do I really need another?

Nah....

Speak of the devil. :D For what it's worth, I find Gielen's 9th to be as good as his 3rd, and better than his 6th. It channels a little of the Schönberg in Mahler (or should that be the other way around?); a kind of 'naturalistic noir' effect, not unlike his 3rd and 7th to my ears. I don't prefer it to Barbirolli, but it wouldn't sound wrong to put it on par with the Boulez.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 06:02:02 PM
Quote from: Greg on May 30, 2011, 06:42:32 PM
To me it's like trying to accept the death of the universe and all life. Like having it in your hand and trying to accept that it will slip away, but you never come to terms with it and it slips away anyways.

That's why I find it to be the most painful music in the world. When I listen to Pettersson, it's like living in prison, but accepting it as normal. When I listen to Shostakovich, it's like living in a Communist prison, but making fun of the officials in private. They're both dark, but have some sort of feeling of acceptance in their music. With Mahler's 9th, it sounds like he's constantly putting up a fight for something "higher", but never turns it into reality. The "acceptance" part is nothing like Bruckner- as we go to sleep, we may fight trying to go to sleep all we want, but eventually we succumb to it. In the ending of the 9th, it's simply him succumbing to death, not "accepting" it.

And still catching up... However, I wanted to note how wonderful this paragraph is! :D

I agree entirely that Mahler is no Bruckner at all. Except that I feel this slipping away may just be the final answer that Mahler was looking for, after all. He fights, he struggles, he aspires, and then perhaps at that final moment of going away, he does so willingly. If there was to be a true acceptance of death, this is how I would see it, and I think Mahler may have seen it too. But the way it's written (I'm referring to literally the last three notes), you couldn't tell either way.

I like to think that this is intentional: that even if one had found his answer, it - and he - would be gone when, or as he did.


Edit: Interestingly, though, even though Bruckner was always finding answers every single time he wrote a symphony, so to speak, I think part of Bruckner's idiom is that he never did find any answers at all. Bruckner's music fundamentally evokes insurmountable doubt far beyond anything written by Mahler ever did, to me. However, as Greg suggests (I think), Bruckner sounds like he may have come to terms with that. Which would - ironically, given his doubts - make him a truly great Christian, if my purely speculative reading of his disposition is correct. :D Not that we are likely to know, either way.


Edit 2: I realise this whole discussion may be a little to hand-wavey mystical mumbo-jumbo folk psychology for many reading; it certainly is to me, when offered as anything other than a hunch. And that's all I'm offering it as.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 06:31:04 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 14, 2011, 01:21:01 AM
Alto all the same.  ;)

I may be underrating Zinman's Mahler... and in fact I've not even yet opened / heard 6, 8, 9, 10 (I like that he went for Carpenter, at least in theory). Among the others, I only thought the 3rd was special. In concert, however, his Sixth recently (Leipzig) was amazing. Very nearly convinced Riccardo Chailly to perform the symphony "A-S" in the future... though I tried to quell that thought immediately with a look of horror on my face and an amateur's passionate plea for "S-A". 

I've said it before (I think), but the best Mahler 4th I've heard was a live one by Zinman, with his Zürich orchestra. It was so shatteringly beautiful, so vulnerable and so lyrical a performance that it took Sarge's recommendation for Maazel to even get me to listen to the piece again, half a year later. Which was great, but I'd still prefer the Zinman, if they issued it and (given Mike's and eyeresists' comments on the Runnicles 8th) it was well-recorded. [Almost done catching up!]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 06:50:52 PM
Consolidating the rest, to avoid going beyond four posts in a row:

Quote from: eyeresist on June 06, 2011, 10:07:34 PM
That link didn't work for me.

It looks like EMI have got the rights to the BBC performance for their set. I haven't heard that one, just the one from the complete cycle.
The reviews for the BBC release go on about how Bernstein is the touchstone for this symphony, which is a load of bull.  >:(

I believe that live 7th is not the one released on BBC Legends that we all love. It's an earlier live release on EMI.

I can't confirm this at the moment, as it's the one Tennstedt Mahler recording on EMI I don't have, but I'm pretty sure the reason for that is my having the BBC Legends one, and thus not expecting a lesser-known prior issue would improve on it.

(And then I go and buy seven different recordings of the same Beethoven symphony from Karajan. Go figure! :D)


Quote from: knight66 on July 23, 2011, 08:54:44 AM
Mahler 2: LPO Jurowski live recording

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Vladimir+Jurowski+mahler

I am surprised no one has picked up on this performance. It got a rave review in Gramophone: which I know for some here may rule it out of court.

I have linked to a couple of other comments and sourced the best price I could find it at when I ordered it.

I know this best of all Mahler's symphonies and yet, as promised, it felt fresh and often raised goosebumps. There is a great deal of almost gossamer delicacy and elbow room without a moment of dragging. Overall the timing means it has to go onto two discs. But mere timings can be deceptive.

I love the rubato and the portamanto, neither of which sound like indulgences. The big moments are not underplayed. It feels organic rather than containing hysterical gear changes.

The orchestra sound is terrific and the recording is close in without undue highlighting of individual players.

The landler in the second movement is delicate rather than rustic. The dialogue of plucked strings quite playful. The third movement points and lifts the rhythms and the momentry drama towards the end of the movement comes through and makes its mark and the last two minutes shift like a mirage from playful to forboding.

I could go on. But really, I feel this is worth getting hold of, even if like me you thought you really did not need yet another Mahler 2.

Mike

Like I said on Facebook, it sounds like this may be the real deal. Mind, I am extremely skeptical about anyone that young pulling of something like the Mahler 2nd, but Rattle did it, and at least he's not Yannick Nézet-Séguin. :P

Seems like my next two classical purchases, when I can afford the venture, will be that and Rattle's new version, which may just be form-conscious and well-played enough to improve on his previous version, for my taste.


Quote from: jlaurson on July 11, 2011, 11:36:07 PM
self-indulgent? you haven't yet seen self-indulgent! ;D


http://www.youtube.com/v/YmkVaYYCVNQ

This evokes the balletic wizard duels of the Harry Potter films to a distressing extent.

(http://bloghogwarts.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/voldemort.PNG)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roberto on August 10, 2011, 11:06:19 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 06:02:02 PM
Edit: Interestingly, though, even though Bruckner was always finding answers every single time he wrote a symphony, so to speak, I think part of Bruckner's idiom is that he never did find any answers at all. Bruckner's music fundamentally evokes insurmountable doubt far beyond anything written by Mahler ever did, to me. However, as Greg suggests (I think), Bruckner sounds like he may have come to terms with that.
Music of Bruckner is like a segment of the infinite line of numbers (for me of course). Virtually no matter where you cut a slice you never could show the entire infinity and the slices are almost the same. But every moment, every point also contains the infinity.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 11, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 05:37:19 PM
However, I do think MTT used Erin Wall as well, and have been looking forward to acquiring his 8th ever since. If only the complete cycle didn't cost an absurd amount, I would've actually invested in it, given David's consistent praise.
I like his 8th better than most, but not as much as that of his East Bay colleague, Kent Nagano.  As for collecting the cycle, I didn't intend to, but once I heard the 4th and the 2nd, then the 1st and the 6th, I was pretty well hooked.  And buying the last several one at a time as they were released kept the price down.  At $175 for the set it's rather steep.  One could easily get two or three other fine cycles for that amount.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on August 11, 2011, 01:27:39 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 09, 2011, 06:06:21 PM
The Orchestra of Paris doesn't come to mind as one of the great Mahler orchestras, but y'all still might enjoy this:

http://www.christoph-eschenbach.com/mahler/
There are some cute boys in that orchestra.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on August 11, 2011, 02:22:23 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 06:02:02 PM
And still catching up... However, I wanted to note how wonderful this paragraph is! :D
Wow, that was so long ago that I forgot I even wrote it.  :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 11, 2011, 04:33:27 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 11, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
I like his 8th better than most, but not as much as that of his East Bay colleague, Kent Nagano.  As for collecting the cycle, I didn't intend to, but once I heard the 4th and the 2nd, then the 1st and the 6th, I was pretty well hooked.  And buying the last several one at a time as they were released kept the price down.  At $175 for the set it's rather steep.  One could easily get two or three other fine cycles for that amount.

Don't forget MTT is, like the Zinman and Gergiev, SACD.  And unlike the Zinman and like the Gergiev, a self release by the orchestra.

I like the MTT 8th but it does have at least one distinct problem--James Morris seems to like chewing up the words instead of singing them during the Pater Profundus section of Part II.  He's not the first to do this--John Shirley Quirk did it for Solti but not as badly as Morris--but it's an obvious defect.  I've only listened to the Nagano once, but liked what I heard and didn't really hear anything I didn't like.  I also liked Inbal when I listened to it as part of his cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roberto on August 11, 2011, 10:31:41 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 11, 2011, 04:33:27 PM
I also liked Inbal when I listened to it as part of his cycle.
Inbal's 8th is impressive and the sound of the Denon recording is good (although sometimes suffers from the 2-microphone recording). I have the Solti's 8th and I've downloaded the Boulez but I ended listening after the first part. He misses so many beautiful moment which I like in Solti's and his structural sense was so chaotic for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 12, 2011, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 11, 2011, 04:33:27 PM
Don't forget MTT is, like the Zinman and Gergiev, SACD.  And unlike the Zinman and like the Gergiev, a self release by the orchestra.
There's a consistent quality in MTT's Mahler that's distinctive and intoxicating, for this fellow at least--a sort of cerebral sensuousness that luxuriates in the sheer beauty of sound while careening from wry detachment to emotional longing, from nostalgia for the old order to prescient dread of the coming new one, from working-class brashness to mystical yearning, presented with clarity respectful of and celebrating Mahler's masterful orchestration and with sound quality in no way deficient.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 12, 2011, 01:37:16 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 12, 2011, 06:51:08 AM
There's a consistent quality in MTT's Mahler that's distinctive and intoxicating, for this fellow at least--a sort of cerebral sensuousness that luxuriates in the sheer beauty of sound while careening from wry detachment to emotional longing, from nostalgia for the old order to prescient dread of the coming new one, from working-class brashness to mystical yearning, presented with clarity respectful of and celebrating Mahler's masterful orchestration and with sound quality in no way deficient.

That's a good way of putting it.  Of the three (Zinman, Gergiev, MTT) I'd rate MTT's cycle best.  Zinman has some individual symphonies that are outstanding--1,3,4, and above all 9--with the rest being good but not as good as the competition--and one (10) being a complete bust (although that might be due to his use of the Carpenter version, which is otherwise totally unknown to me).  Similarly, Gergiev has a couple that are outstanding--3 and 7--a couple that are nearly so--1 and 6--one complete flop (4), and the remaining three (2,5,8) maybe good but nowhere as good as the competition. I'd say his rendition of the Adagio from 10 is the best performance of the movement in isolation I've heard, but he didn't record the complete symphony. Neither did MTT.  [Gergiev's 9 is still unreleased, isn't it?] Whereas MTT has a consistently high quality--no flops, and while no single performance might be my top pick for a particular symphony,  they would all be among the top picks (especially 2 and 7).  Even 8, floundering James Morris and all.

Another thing in MTT's favor is that his cycle includes Das Klagende Lied, DLvdE, and most of the song cycles (he only includes a few from Des Knaben Wunderhorn). Zinman and (apparently) Gergiev don't.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2011, 08:48:08 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 12, 2011, 06:51:08 AM
There's a consistent quality in MTT's Mahler that's distinctive and intoxicating, for this fellow at least--a sort of cerebral sensuousness that luxuriates in the sheer beauty of sound while careening from wry detachment to emotional longing, from nostalgia for the old order to prescient dread of the coming new one, from working-class brashness to mystical yearning, presented with clarity respectful of and celebrating Mahler's masterful orchestration and with sound quality in no way deficient.

The sound indeed is one of the great attributes of MTT's cycle. Warm yet detailed, deep though with a comforting spread, and with a naturalness that recalls the concert hall.

It's the perfect complement to MTT's overarching viewpoint, giving him ample room to parade all those orchestral felicities written in the score (whichever score).

I have six from his cycle (1,2,3,4,7,9) and the more I listen the more impressed I am with his conception.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 12, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2011, 08:48:08 PM
The sound indeed is one of the great attributes of MTT's cycle. Warm yet detailed, deep though with a comforting spread, and with a naturalness that recalls the concert hall.

It's the perfect complement to MTT's overarching viewpoint, giving him ample room to parade all those orchestral felicities written in the score (whichever score).

I have six from his cycle (1,2,3,4,7,9) and the more I listen the more impressed I am with his conception.

MTT is very good; very few duds (7th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/eine-riesengrosse-nachtmusik-mtt.html), even if it isn't actually bad).
9th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html) has one of the best last movements.
2nd (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/mahler-symphony-no-2-resurrection.html) very good, not the least thanks to Hunt-Lieberson. 3rd (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html) shot straight into my Mahler Survey selections (as the SACD choice), as did his Lied von der Erde (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html). The 6th (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1307) has a better story ("9/12") than it actually sounds (still very good), 4th (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1170) and 5th (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1230) not as memorable (apparently), 1st (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1037) very good. 8th (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382) not bad... no more.

Quote...Perhaps that's an East coast thing: Michael Tilson Thomas (SFS Media,) does the same thing with the San Francisco Symphony: aided by some of the most refined, gentlest string sound—and only at such sound can this successfully pulled off—does he span the movement over an astonishing 26 minutes. (The average is a little over 21 minutes, Kondrashin and Walter have it over and done with in under 18.) With him the music seems to be taking a deep, natural breath after each phrase. No real complaints about his soprano, Laura Claycomb, but nothing to write home about, or lift this glorious performance far above the mass of other wonderful performances...

... Tilson Thomas (SFS Media, ) is not usually part of that lot, being more a neutralized Bernstein-type (heart on the sleeve, but with cuff-links), but his Fifth would qualify. At their best, they can deliver fantastic Mahler; at their worst they come with faultless, pristine comity. I quite prefer the kind of personal Mahler recordings that Benjamin Zander (Telarc, ) makes, which rank higher in my estimation than my scant mention of him so far might suggest....

...Michael Tilson Thomas (S-A) and Simon Rattle (A-S) both offer very fine Sixths and I admit being a bit surprised in both cases: In MTT's case because his mix of elegance and beauty would seem to offer little more in the Sixth than Abbado or Jansons... except more re-touching and rubato. But what he delivers is a broad, colorful performance with wildly changing, often slow tempos, and exclamation-mark ritardandos. It must have been a harrowing night for the audience to listen to this onslaught on September 12th, 2001... and brutally appropriate. But preserved on disc, it cannot ultimately live up to the momentous moment it presented then and doesn't challenge, among the SACD competition, Fischer and Eschenbach....

...St Paul's acoustic, just shy of making the Eighth a mess, is tremendously helpful in creating the necessary atmosphere, and it especially pays off in the final minutes where Gergiev manages to be better than most, creating steam out of vapor, a fearsomely fierce storm around a lavishly dominating organ: Imposing and uplifting and far and away the best Gergiev-Mahler contribution yet. So much that he even beats the recent SACD-competition of Michael Tilson Thomas whose gear-change heavy Eighth I see in line with Boulez and Gielen II, ahead of the former, behind the latter, in terms of ambiance Mysticus-feel. As with Gielen, you can scarcely tell it's a live recording, so much does it sound like the only recent studio recording, Boulez'...

Altogether the best SACD cycle by far... unless one REALLY likes the no-pulls-no-pushes-just-the-notes Zinman, who has a very good 3rd, and much timidity or possibly blandness. Zinman live with the Sixth was awesome recently... but on CD it feels like a lesser reincarnation of Kubelik, minus his personality. The orchestra is fantastic, though.

Gergiev / LSO splits opinions; mine is fairly solidly down the negative side; found the Sixth and Seventh huge disappointments, the others lesser disappointments, the third marred by ridiculously bad singing -- no, wait... the Third is quite OK, actually.... good finale. It's the 2nd that's shite...

Quote...no shame for Zlata Bulycheva's bizarre, incomprehensible contribution on the more recent LSO recording (LSO Live ) with Gergiev, though. What a mess—and not a performance to make up for it from the Russian and his band, either...

...the 8th very good, the 5th very good, the rest (as was said, the 9th has not been issued; it and the 5th had not been done properly in the first round, so they had to wait for a second touring-cycle to record them.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 13, 2011, 07:28:40 AM
Taste's a funny thing.  Jens, you and I probably agree at least 4 out of 5 times, yet we're oddly divided on the MTT/SFS 7th--one of my faves in the set and the one you least like.  And I recall that of the two very fine recent recordings of the 4th, you preferred Haitink with Schäfer while I chose Fischer and Persson.  But I happened on a webcast of the 4th by Haitink, Schäfer, and the RCO that I thought was absolutely terrific and makes me want to hear the CD again! http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=9068963
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 13, 2011, 09:53:59 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 12, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
MTT is very good; very few duds (7th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/eine-riesengrosse-nachtmusik-mtt.html), even if it isn't actually bad).
9th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html) has one of the best last movements.
2nd (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/mahler-symphony-no-2-resurrection.html) very good, not the least thanks to Hunt-Lieberson. 3rd (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html) shot straight into my Mahler Survey selections (as the SACD choice), as did his Lied von der Erde (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html). The 6th (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1307) has a better story ("9/12") than it actually sounds (still very good), 4th (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1170) and 5th (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1230) not as memorable (apparently), 1st (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1037) very good. 8th (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1382) not bad... no more.

To be honest, it's a cycle (or what I have of it) that had me scratching my head in the beginning. Before I knew it I was the proud owner of six (expensive) recordings from the MTT cycle but for some reason hadn't the enthusiasm for them I thought I should have. Part of it I think was MTT's approach: I didn't really hear the "wild mood swings" that are present in Bernstein/DG (who I cut my Mahler teeth on) or even Chailly. I began to think that "too smooth" Mahler just wouldn't be my cup of tea.

But ultimately "smooth" is just as relative a term as "wild" and what eventually determines success is the language the conductor speaks in. This should be self-evident I suppose but with Mahler I just didn't 'get him' unless the schizophrenia was turned clear on up to distorting levels. Hence my admiration for Bernstein/DG (still do admire him).

But with MTT I feel the schizophrenia is every bit as alive but given over just a bit to a sort of sophistication. I get passion, drive, and - *gulp* - even nuance. But wouldn't nuance be something akin to a momentum killer in Mahler? I thought so in the beginning but now with time I see the wisdom in MTT's conception. Not a momentum killer, but the extra ingredient which can make Mahler special.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on August 13, 2011, 10:21:11 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 11, 2011, 12:58:22 PM
I like his 8th better than most, but not as much as that of his East Bay colleague, Kent Nagano.  As for collecting the cycle, I didn't intend to, but once I heard the 4th and the 2nd, then the 1st and the 6th, I was pretty well hooked.  And buying the last several one at a time as they were released kept the price down.  At $175 for the set it's rather steep.  One could easily get two or three other fine cycles for that amount.

I saw Nagano's 8th on offer recently (offline), so maybe I'll give it a chance as I wait for a good price on MTT's cycle. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 16, 2011, 10:38:54 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 12, 2011, 01:37:16 PM[Gergiev's 9 is still unreleased, isn't it?] ...

Speaking of the devil: I got home for a brief laundry&refuel pit-stop and Gergiev's 9th was waiting for me in the mail box. 
More about it anon.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 17, 2011, 07:34:52 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 16, 2011, 10:38:54 PM
Speaking of the devil: I got home for a brief laundry&refuel pit-stop and Gergiev's 9th was waiting for me in the mail box. 
More about it anon.

Amazon gives an official release date of 13 September.  I'll get it, if only because, having all the others, I'd feel like an idiot if I don't complete the series--even if it's a totally worthless recording.

Meanwhile, I have the Haitink/RCO live Fourth and the Jurowski LPO Second in transit to me from Amazon Marketplace sellers;  they may conceivably arrive today.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 17, 2011, 02:58:08 PM
Hmmm.  Pleasantly surprised (again!) by Zinman's Mahler, this time the 7th. As usual it shows Zinman having a nice ear for detail and orchestral balance of voices, and a flexible mastery of rhythms.  Up to this point my general impression of the cycle is that it's well-played and more than competent, but not particularly distinguished.  But the 7th is much more idiosyncratic than its predecessors and may be the most successful of them all.  Zinman's approach to the inner movements is unconventional, even radical, presenting them as experimental in a way presaging later 20th Century developments--the scherzo especially.  There's nothing spooky or macabre about Zinman's approach; it's more playful, even whimsical at times, and seems quite revolutionary to my ears.

Next up--the 8th.  I'll need some time to prepare myself for that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 07:35:14 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 17, 2011, 02:58:08 PM
Hmmm.  Pleasantly surprised (again!) by Zinman's Mahler, this time the 7th. As usual it shows Zinman having a nice ear for detail and orchestral balance of voices, and a flexible mastery of rhythms.  Up to this point my general impression of the cycle is that it's well-played and more than competent, but not particularly distinguished.  But the 7th is much more idiosyncratic than its predecessors and may be the most successful of them all.  Zinman's approach to the inner movements is unconventional, even radical, presenting them as experimental in a way presaging later 20th Century developments--the scherzo especially.  There's nothing spooky or macabre about Zinman's approach; it's more playful, even whimsical at times, and seems quite revolutionary to my ears.

Next up--the 8th.  I'll need some time to prepare myself for that.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on Zinman's M7, and I agree with your comments.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 07:36:29 AM
By the way, it's nice to read some good thoughts on MTT's SACD cycle. That cycle has really grown on me, and it has become my favorite modern cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 21, 2011, 07:38:26 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 12, 2011, 06:51:08 AM
There's a consistent quality in MTT's Mahler that's distinctive and intoxicating, for this fellow at least--a sort of cerebral sensuousness that luxuriates in the sheer beauty of sound while careening from wry detachment to emotional longing, from nostalgia for the old order to prescient dread of the coming new one, from working-class brashness to mystical yearning, presented with clarity respectful of and celebrating Mahler's masterful orchestration and with sound quality in no way deficient.

A great way to describe MTT's sound in Mahler.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 21, 2011, 11:53:29 AM
Thanks for your kind comments, Leo.  I've finished hearing the Zinman set (in 320kbps mp3).  While it has much to recommend it, with admirable playing from the orchestra and beautiful sound (if lossy mp3 was that good, I expect CD and SACD to be even better), only the 7th struck me as particularly distinguished in a way that piques my interest to hear it again soon.  At the current price of ~$100 for the cycle, I would not recommend it to anyone seeking a first, second, or third complete set, nor would I be inclined to add it to my own collection.  But it's different and well-done enough that once it falls to somewhere between $50 and $30, I will probably acquire a set for myself.  Given the current wealth of good Mahler cycles on record, and the quality of the competition, I doubt it will be a long wait.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 22, 2011, 04:51:43 PM

Australians might like to know that SBS TV is showing Abbado's Lucerne performance of Mahler's 9th this Saturday, at 1pm (Eastern Standard time). This performance is quite long, apparently :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on August 23, 2011, 07:07:54 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 22, 2011, 04:51:43 PM
Australians might like to know that SBS TV is showing Abbado's Lucerne performance of Mahler's 9th this Saturday, at 1pm (Eastern Standard time). This performance is quite long, apparently :)

~86 minutes seems just a tad right to the usual duration.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 24, 2011, 05:40:18 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 23, 2011, 07:07:54 AM
~86 minutes seems just a tad right to the usual duration.

The TV guide says it starts at 1pm and the next program starts at 2.40.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on August 24, 2011, 10:57:32 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 24, 2011, 05:40:18 PM
The TV guide says it starts at 1pm and the next program starts at 2.40.


Perhaps some sort of introduction to the work is included. (And take some time for commercials? between the shows.)

Anyway, I hope you enjoy it (can one really say that to someone who is about listen to M9? :-\). The audience was one of the nicest bunch. They stay pretty quiet till the last note fades and few seconds more, and only after that do they applaud.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 24, 2011, 11:20:51 PM
Yes, regardless of the details, I am expecting it to be pretty awesome! Of course, this will be my first experience of Abbado's Mahler, so you never know...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 25, 2011, 03:13:21 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 17, 2011, 07:34:52 AM
Amazon gives an official release date of 13 September.  I'll get it, if only because, having all the others, I'd feel like an idiot if I don't complete the series--even if it's a totally worthless recording.


It's not worthless, I'm happy to say. Finally found time to listen to it (only once, while working). Curiously dampened sound quality, which smoothes the effort... but with a very nice flow to it. Might just go give it another spin right now, once I'm through with the Hans Gál Violin Concerto (Gramola) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004R7Z3FE/goodmusicguide-20).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 25, 2011, 10:31:44 AM
Received the Norrington Mahler recordings I ordered from Arkiv yesterday, so right now I'm in the middle of a mini Mahler marathon, starting with 1 (which I liked, although it won't necessarily be my favorite), continuing with 2, which seriously underwhelmed me (especially the mezzo in Urlicht, who seemed either to be trying to sound childlike or else to have no chest capacity), and now on 4, which also underwhelms me, especially in the third movement (now playing), where I'm noticing the lack of vibrato, and not in a good way.  Really, Roger, would even a little vibrato now and then kill you? 5 and 9 will come up in due course.

I was going to order Norrington's Bruckner before they go off sale at Arkiv.  Now I'm not so sure.

ETA: or maybe I will go ahead with it.  The last movement of 4 was very good, and more than made up for the underwhelming third movement.  And 5 is off to a promising start, at least.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 25, 2011, 01:18:58 PM
Finished the mini-marathon of Norrington.

1--good, but too many others are at least as good.
2--meh.  in fact, so meh I'll have to give it another listen in a couple of days to make sure.
4-a not all that great third movement in a performance that otherwise ranged from good to excellent (the final movement).
5--excellent.  may turn out to be one of my favorites.
9--excellent as well.  I like my 9ths slow, but this is a very good performance of the faster paced variety (72:10 in all, with the Adagio coming in at 19:24), and the inner movements come off better than in some other recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 25, 2011, 07:59:06 PM

Thanks for the report, Jeffrey. I've had my eye on the 9th for a little while...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 05:41:23 PM
The free-to-air Australian TV channel SBS showed Abbado's Lucerne performance of the 9th this last Saturday. It was very good, quite straight-forward until the finale, which had more pauses and extreme rubato. It doesn't displace Walter 1938 for me, because although Walter doesn't luxuriate in the moments as later conductors do, he makes clear the rhetorical line that carries the listener through this rather long and difficult work.

I found out why the broadcast time was so long, and was reminded of why I dislike classical concertising - the ENDLESS clapping, the endless bows, the forced standing ovations. To this Abbado added two minutes of silence during which his musicians held their instruments in the attitude of playing, while he stood there with his eyes closed looking piously solemn. This isn't music making - this is just pretention. And just watch the musicians pop up like jackrabbits when Claudio finally gives the nod - all grateful to get some feeling back in their arses!

[/cynicism]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 28, 2011, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 05:41:23 PM
...To this Abbado added two minutes of silence during which his musicians held their instruments in the attitude of playing, while he stood there with his eyes closed looking piously solemn. This isn't music making - this is just pretention....
[/cynicism]

:) 
I'm all the way with you:

Quote
The Kit-Kat‡ Conductor: Notes from the 2011 Salzburg Festival ( 13 ) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/08/kit-kat-conductor-notes-from-2011.html)

...The first thing Rubiķis displayed was that he has all the pompous conductor-poses down pat: Starting with ostentatiously shaking the concert master's hand, then generously-portentously gesturing the orchestra to sit (an elongated, studied circular wave) and finally going for the obnoxious applause-prevention-conclusion-pose that fakes rapt post-performance audience-silence when the music (or performance) itself wasn't sufficient to do so. Once invented to keep the early eager clappers in check, it's become a bad habit that has spread to almost every conductor in every piece that ends with anything less than a triple-fortissimo chord. ...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 11:25:52 PM
Thanks for that :)

I just amused myself by imagining conducting a performance of Prokofiev's 7th, including the busy upbeat flourish at the end - and then holding my hands aloft for an endless age, glaring at the players and daring them to break the spell.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 28, 2011, 11:32:41 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 05:41:23 PM
I found out why the broadcast time was so long, and was reminded of why I dislike classical concertising - the ENDLESS clapping, the endless bows, the forced standing ovations. To this Abbado added two minutes of silence during which his musicians held their instruments in the attitude of playing, while he stood there with his eyes closed looking piously solemn. This isn't music making - this is just pretention. And just watch the musicians pop up like jackrabbits when Claudio finally gives the nod - all grateful to get some feeling back in their arses!

[/cynicism]
I much prefer that to the cries of Bravo while the music is still ongoing. Nothing worse than that in my opinion.  I like it when there is a pause of some sort before the conductor puts his hands down and the crowd goes wild (or whatever).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 12:45:45 AM

I wonder if these bravo-ers suffer from prematurity in other areas of life as well?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2011, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 28, 2011, 11:32:41 PM
I much prefer that to the cries of Bravo while the music is still ongoing. Nothing worse than that in my opinion.  I like it when there is a pause of some sort before the conductor puts his hands down and the crowd goes wild (or whatever).


This is exactly what happened at the Proms 'Gothic'. My cries of 'Bravo!' were there, too (to be heard on YouTube, my channel [Jezetha], second clip)...


Quote from: eyeresist on August 29, 2011, 12:45:45 AMI wonder if these bravo-ers suffer from prematurity in other areas of life as well?


"As above, so below."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on August 29, 2011, 11:08:05 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 28, 2011, 05:41:23 PM
I found out why the broadcast time was so long, and was reminded of why I dislike classical concertising - the ENDLESS clapping, the endless bows, the forced standing ovations. To this Abbado added two minutes of silence during which his musicians held their instruments in the attitude of playing, while he stood there with his eyes closed looking piously solemn. This isn't music making - this is just pretention. And just watch the musicians pop up like jackrabbits when Claudio finally gives the nod - all grateful to get some feeling back in their arses!

Ah. So they weren't necessarily all that nice after all.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
Out on October 3rd, 2011 :

[asin]B005HMKFMO[/asin]

Re-issue of some sort ?

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 06, 2011, 01:41:59 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
Out on October 3rd, 2011 :

Levine, Mahler 2

Re-issue of some sort ?

No, released for the first time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 01:48:44 PM
thanks Jens.

I guess that could come as a nice complement to his partial RCA set. Saved in the basket for now.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
Out on October 3rd, 2011 :

[asin]B005HMKFMO[/asin]

Thanks for the heads-up, Papy.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 02:00:36 PM
Another couple of forthcoming releases :

27/09/11 - Kondrashin - 6th

[asin]B005ILYMI2[/asin]

17/10/11 - Klemperer - Boxset

[asin]B005EVV5GI[/asin]


Definitely considering the Klemperer as I only have his Philarmonia and BRSO Resurrections so far.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 02:24:02 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 02:00:36 PM
Another couple of forthcoming releases :

17/10/11 - Klemperer - Boxset

[asin]B005EVV5GI[/asin]


Definitely considering the Klemperer as I only have his Philarmonia and BRSO Resurrections so far.

You have to get it Papy: the greatest M7 ever! (Well, I think so anyway  ;D )

I'll have to get the box for the Fourth--which has proven impossible to track down.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 02:28:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 02:24:02 PM

I'll have to get the box for the Fourth--which has proven impossible to track down.

Sarge

A couple of 4th used here :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B000005GV1/ref=sr_1_18_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1315348032&sr=8-18&condition=used (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B000005GV1/ref=sr_1_18_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1315348032&sr=8-18&condition=used)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 02:35:47 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 02:28:59 PM
A couple of 4th used here :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B000005GV1/ref=sr_1_18_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1315348032&sr=8-18&condition=used (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B000005GV1/ref=sr_1_18_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1315348032&sr=8-18&condition=used)

Thanks for finding that! It will same me some needless duplication  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on September 06, 2011, 03:18:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 02:24:02 PM
You have to get it Papy: the greatest slowest M7 ever!

There fixed that for you! *ducks!* ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 06, 2011, 03:18:03 PM
There fixed that for you! *ducks!* ;D


Well, it is that too so I'll withhold fire for the moment  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on September 06, 2011, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 03:22:33 PM

Well, it is that too so I'll withhold fire for the moment  ;)

Sarge

Ah, c'mon Sarge!  I think that was totally 'machine gun' worthy!   :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 06, 2011, 06:16:53 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 01:48:44 PM
thanks Jens.

I guess that could come as a nice complement to his partial RCA set. Saved in the basket for now.  :)

The link is not working for me, and an Amazon US search isn't showing it.  In the meanwhile, this was released about six months ago.  Performance from 1989.
[asin]B004DKDO06[/asin]

Helicon is the Israel Philharmonic's own label.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 06, 2011, 08:08:56 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
Out on October 3rd, 2011 :

[asin]B005HMKFMO[/asin]

Re-issue of some sort ?

I saw it on MDT, earlier this week. Not sure if the second is Levine's kind of thing, though - going purely on prejudice, I'd expect it to be Maazel-style, only even less flexible, and I already had a mixed reaction to Maazel's M2.


(Although I liked almost all of the rest of Maazel's Mahler, and much of Levine's. So I guess I'll wait for Sarge's verdict. ;D)



These, however...

Quote from: Papy Oli on September 06, 2011, 02:00:36 PM
Another couple of forthcoming releases :

27/09/11 - Kondrashin - 6th

[asin]B005ILYMI2[/asin]

17/10/11 - Klemperer - Boxset

[asin]B005EVV5GI[/asin]


Definitely considering the Klemperer as I only have his Philarmonia and BRSO Resurrections so far.

Yes, and yes! I've been looking for Klemperer's 4th and 7th for quite a while; and Kondrashin is a sure bet. Thanks. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 07, 2011, 06:41:43 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 06, 2011, 06:16:53 PM
The link is not working for me, and an Amazon US search isn't showing it.

Funny that the cover image displays here but the link doesn't work! You will find this item at amazon.co.uk.
Title: NY Phil 9/11 Mahler "Resurrection" on YouTube
Post by: bhodges on September 12, 2011, 02:17:47 PM
(Repost)

I was in the audience Saturday night for the New York Philharmonic's quite moving performance of the Mahler "Resurrection." It's going to be released on DVD next month, but in the meantime, they've already posted it on YouTube, in five parts. (Note: Opening segment with The Star-Spangled Banner and Alan Gilbert's remarks was removed, for some reason.)

http://www.youtube.com/user/NewYorkPhilharmonic#p/c/A14FEF2CC69E90C8/1/RrBVl7UyDFc

Edit: OK, I have no idea what's going on, but Part 1, the opening segment, is now back up.  ???

http://www.youtube.com/user/NewYorkPhilharmonic#p/c/A14FEF2CC69E90C8/0/g2DnTe19WhI

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 12, 2011, 08:34:40 PM
Prompted by the "Favourite Mahler symphony" poll, I am listening to Nanut conducting the 6th - after giving up on Gergiev's recent attempt, which frankly I think trivialises the music. Nanut's timings are almost as brief as Gergiev's (except the Andante), but, unlike the LSO, Nanut's orchestra doesn't sound rushed, and, thanks to balanced tempo relationships, you actually get a coherent sense of the structure. Also, his Radio Symphony Orchestra Ljubljana certainly do not disgrace themselves.

Verdict: This is proper Mahler!

Movement timings:
               Nanut    Gergiev
I.             21.56    21.59
II. (Andante)  15.34    13.53
III.(Scherzo)  12.36    12.34
IV.            29.51    28.45
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 13, 2011, 03:31:37 AM
Is that legit, though? As far as I'm aware, Nanut's name is attached to less-than-legal reproductions of famous recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 13, 2011, 03:35:55 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 13, 2011, 03:31:37 AM
Is that legit, though? As far as I'm aware, Nanut's name is attached to less-than-legal reproductions of famous recordings.


It's Nanut's birthday... Be gentle with him.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 13, 2011, 03:55:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 13, 2011, 03:35:55 AM

It's Nanut's birthday... Be gentle with him.  ;D

Of course, the real Anton Nanut could likely have delivered a satisfying Mahler 6th as well.

Better? ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 13, 2011, 04:33:58 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 13, 2011, 03:55:25 AM
Of course, the real Anton Nanut could likely have delivered a satisfying Mahler 6th as well.

Better? ;D


:'(  Moved to tears.  :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on September 13, 2011, 08:50:28 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 13, 2011, 03:31:37 AM
Is that legit, though? As far as I'm aware, Nanut's name is attached to less-than-legal reproductions of famous recordings.

If he was, then that is not of his own doing. Nanut was music director in Ljubljana (Slovenia) for many many years. Must have recorded about as much symphonic repertoire as Karajan. And much of it quite decently so.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 13, 2011, 11:31:55 AM
Quote from: MishaK on September 13, 2011, 08:50:28 AM
If he was, then that is not of his own doing. Nanut was music director in Ljubljana (Slovenia) for many many years. Must have recorded about as much symphonic repertoire as Karajan. And much of it quite decently so.

Yes, obviously he's not the one doing it! :)

Either way, I've not heard a Nanut, or faux-Nanut recording, so I can't speak for their quality.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 14, 2011, 06:17:06 PM
Quote from: Renfield on September 13, 2011, 11:31:55 AM
Yes, obviously he's not the one doing it! :)

Either way, I've not heard a Nanut, or faux-Nanut recording, so I can't speak for their quality.

Most of my Nanut recordings are on the Point Classics label (now semi-defunct), but this M6 is on ZYX. He is generally reliable, sometimes outstanding. I value his recording of Rimsky's Sheherezade as one of my favourites. His Mahler is very fine (he is credited as recording 1, 4, 5, 6 & DLvdE), except I recall being disappointed by his M4 - possibly this was an example of rebranding under his name? - and was not impressed by Das Lied, all though this is not a work I care for anyway. Also on Point are the Brahms piano concertos with Dubravka Tomsic; I think these are genuine, as I've read an Amazon review by someone claiming to be one of Tomsic's students. There are fine recordings of Tchaikovsky's 4-6, if you like that sort of thing ;)

There is a Shostakovich 7 of which I've heard good things - must get around to buying it one day. Basically, whatever the provenance of the "Nanut" recordings, my experiences have generally been very good, and I'd recommend him as a name to look for.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on September 15, 2011, 09:34:53 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 14, 2011, 06:17:06 PM
possibly this was an example of rebranding under his name?

Why would anyone do that? Wouldn't it be the other way around - a Nanut recording posing for something else (since non-Slavs have trouble pronouncing Ljubljana)?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 15, 2011, 06:30:31 PM
Quote from: MishaK on September 15, 2011, 09:34:53 AM
Why would anyone do that?

I think it's precisely because Nanut is a name known to aficionados of excellent bargains :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on September 18, 2011, 09:33:06 AM
Streaming video of a superb performance of Mahler 5 with Honeck/Pittsburgh on tour in the Philharmonie in Berlin from a week ago.

http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/PSO_Mahler/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on September 18, 2011, 10:36:11 AM
Quote from: MishaK on September 18, 2011, 09:33:06 AM
Streaming video of a superb performance of Mahler 5 with Honeck/Pittsburgh on tour in the Philharmonie in Berlin from a week ago.

http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/PSO_Mahler/

Thanks for the link.
Now, almost at the end of the 2nd movement, and, on first hearing, I have to say that there's more musically happening in this performance than in NYPO/Gilbert's 2nd on 9-11 2011 in New York.

Pittsburgh/Honeck looks a good marriage to me!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 10:38:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on September 18, 2011, 10:36:11 AM
Thanks for the link.
Now, almost at the end of the 2nd movement, and, on first hearing, I have to say that there's more musically happening in this performance than in NYPO/Gilbert's 2nd on 9-11 2011 in New York.

Pittsburgh/Honeck looks a good marriage to me!


Yes, I like it, too! Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 18, 2011, 10:41:57 AM
Received an email from AmazonUK touting among other upcoming releases, the Chailly/Gewandhaus performances of M2 and M8 that were part of the Leipzig Mahlerfest a few weeks ago, on Blu-Ray DVD.  IIRC, these were two performances Jens didn't see...I think they'll be out in November in the UK.  No mention of any non-BluRay version or of a US release date, if it's different.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 18, 2011, 10:48:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 25, 2011, 03:13:21 AM
It's not worthless, I'm happy to say. Finally found time to listen to it (only once, while working). Curiously dampened sound quality, which smoothes the effort... but with a very nice flow to it. Might just go give it another spin right now, once I'm through with the Hans Gál Violin Concerto (Gramola) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004R7Z3FE/goodmusicguide-20).

Received it and played it last night  [it being Gergiev/LSO Ninth].  I thought it was a very good performance, actually, although my previous favorites will remain my favorites--it might be the best installment of Gergiev's Mahler cycle.

Sound quality didn't sound much different from almost any other recording I have that was taped at the Barbican...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on September 18, 2011, 10:52:02 AM
Quote from: MishaK on September 18, 2011, 09:33:06 AM
Streaming video of a superb performance of Mahler 5 with Honeck/Pittsburgh on tour in the Philharmonie in Berlin from a week ago.

http://liveweb.arte.tv/de/video/PSO_Mahler/

Quote from: Marc on September 18, 2011, 10:36:11 AM
Thanks for the link.
Now, almost at the end of the 2nd movement, and, on first hearing, I have to say that there's more musically happening in this performance than in NYPO/Gilbert's 2nd on 9-11 2011 in New York.

Pittsburgh/Honeck looks a good marriage to me!

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 10:38:10 AM
Yes, I like it, too! Thanks for the link.

The 3rd movement (Scherzo) is certainly one of my Mahler faves.
I'm always getting moved by the horn solo, beginning from around 34 mins 20 secs in this specific one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 18, 2011, 07:38:22 PM
I have a question. What is the x equivalent to a Mahler symphony?

1) movie
2) book
3) video game
4) artwork

by that, I mean, what makes you feel the same way after finishing?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 11:07:00 PM
Quote from: Greg on September 18, 2011, 07:38:22 PM
I have a question. What is the x equivalent to a Mahler symphony?

1) movie
2) book
3) video game
4) artwork

by that, I mean, what makes you feel the same way after finishing?


Mahler was a very literary man, who liked his Shakespeare, Goethe, Jean Paul and Dostoevsky. In their length and variety, his symphonies are a bit novel-like. So I'd say - a book.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on September 19, 2011, 02:53:34 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 11:07:00 PM

Mahler was a very literary man, who liked his Shakespeare, Goethe, Jean Paul and Dostoevsky. In their length and variety, his symphonies are a bit novel-like. So I'd say - a book.

I interpret the question as "Name a movie/book/artwork/videogame which is a cinematic/literary/artistic-visual-paintingy/zombie-making equivalent to a Mahler symphony".

Perhaps Greg should clarify his question a little more: which Mahler symphony? I can't pigoen-hole them all into "one feeling". In the early days, all of them were 'exhausting' to me, even at the surface level, but I suspect that people like Sarge and others hardly feel so.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on September 19, 2011, 04:39:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 11:07:00 PM

Mahler was a very literary man, who liked his Shakespeare, Goethe, Jean Paul and Dostoevsky. In their length and variety, his symphonies are a bit novel-like. So I'd say - a book.

:D  Yes, Mahler's 30 minute movements are akin to some of Dostoesvky's 10 page paragraphs (no word of exaggeration, because in both Crime & Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov, there are paragraphs that are literally almost 10 pages long).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Amfortas on September 19, 2011, 08:32:48 AM
I have the recent Mahler 7 with Berlin and Rattle upped here in good audio:

http://www.4shared.com/folder/zSsxySNe/Mahler_7_-_BPO_Rattle__Aug_201.html
(http://www.4shared.com/folder/zSsxySNe/Mahler_7_-_BPO_Rattle__Aug_201.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 09:00:11 AM
Thanks! I'll download the first movement (one of my Mahlerian favourites) and see what Rattle and the BPO do with it...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 19, 2011, 09:00:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 11:07:00 PM

Mahler was a very literary man, who liked his Shakespeare, Goethe, Jean Paul and Dostoevsky. In their length and variety, his symphonies are a bit novel-like. So I'd say - a book.
My bad... I guess I didn't phrase the question right.
I meant- what movie feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what book feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what video game feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what artwork feels the same as a Mahler symphony?

But are the authors he was into write books that feel somewhat Mahlerian? I don't think I've read Goethe or Jean Paul, but what I've read by Shakespeare and Dostoevsky, they don't feel Mahlerian. Or is there nothing comparable in any medium to his music? (hopefully not)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 09:05:35 AM
The question behind your question is - what is the Mahlerian experience? If you answer that, we can look if this experience can be/has ever been reproduced in another medium...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Amfortas on September 19, 2011, 09:07:12 AM
Quote from: Greg on September 19, 2011, 09:00:35 AM
My bad... I guess I didn't phrase the question right.
I meant- what movie feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what book feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what video game feels the same as a Mahler symphony? what artwork feels the same as a Mahler symphony?

But are the authors he was into write books that feel somewhat Mahlerian? I don't think I've read Goethe or Jean Paul, but what I've read by Shakespeare and Dostoevsky, they don't feel Mahlerian. Or is there nothing comparable in any medium to his music? (hopefully not)

I don't think there is any real analog to Mahler's music. It's one reason why many of us love his work, it seem wholly original, even if we can point to influences within it. To me, his music really creates its own world.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 19, 2011, 11:21:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 09:05:35 AM
The question behind your question is - what is the Mahlerian experience? If you answer that, we can look if this experience can be/has ever been reproduced in another medium...
I could give an attempt to try to define that, but words really wouldn't be good enough.
Hmm... here'a lousy attempt:
-epic
-profoundly expressive
-but not dark/horror-ish, as many things tend to be
-in touch with nature, but at the same time, complex


kind vague, and can only really be understood through experience...

The only things that come somewhat close in each medium that I can think of:
-books- Ayn Rand's Anthem? (but it's too short)
-games- FF7
-art- can't think of anything
-film- Kurosawa's Ran
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 12:03:11 PM
Quote from: Greg on September 19, 2011, 11:21:03 AM
I could give an attempt to try to define that, but words really wouldn't be good enough.
Hmm... here'a lousy attempt:
-epic
-profoundly expressive
-but not dark/horror-ish, as many things tend to be
-in touch with nature, but at the same time, complex


kind vague, and can only really be understood through experience...

The only things that come somewhat close in each medium that I can think of:
-books- Ayn Rand's Anthem? (but it's too short)
-games- FF7
-art- can't think of anything
-film- Kurosawa's Ran


I think, as Amfortas says, that no artist in another medium is or has been like Gustav Mahler. But I think that aspects of his work do find some sort of equivalent in poetry (Paul Celan, harrowingness), fiction (Kafka, absurdity; Dostoevsky, blackness, emotion, volubility; Tolkien (?), in the weird imagination and the epic quality)... I could go on, but I won't. Mahler is Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 19, 2011, 12:38:33 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 12:03:11 PM

I think, as Amfortas says, that no artist in another medium is or has been like Gustav Mahler. But I think that aspects of his work do find some sort of equivalent in poetry (Paul Celan, harrowingness), fiction (Kafka, absurdity; Dostoevsky, blackness, emotion, volubility; Tolkien (?), in the weird imagination and the epic quality)... I could go on, but I won't. Mahler is Mahler.
Good suggestions. Actually, Tolkien is another I would have listed if I thought of it. Dostoevsky to me seems very comparable to Shostakovich. I have not read Kafka yet, and Celan I've never heard of before. Yeah, stuff that shares similarities is about as close as you'll get, I suppose.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 19, 2011, 12:58:23 PM
I definitely have an answer to 'game' - Planescape: Torment. This really is extremely close to Mahler's world.

Books? Bukowski often makes me think of Mahler, not just because he liked him too.

Hemingway too, in his more sombre moments (Farewell to Arms), and of course Rückert (I'd reckon - haven't read him beyond the lieder), and many of Shakespeares' introspective passages (esp. sonnets). Dostoyevski? Not so much. But maybe Poe.


Art? Klimt is very aptly used for all those Mahler album covers, IMO, and not just because of any historical, or personal relation.

Also Munch, Hammershøi, and Gerhard Richter's depictions of death, off the top of my head,  relate to Mahler thematically.


Movies? You've got me there.

I simply don't have cinephile lore reaching into the period where I might expect to find Mahler-esque cinema, though modern art-cinema like - odd example that comes to mind - 'The Counterfeiters' (Die Fälscher carries the late Mahler tragic, dark, ironic edge.

Still, I openly admit to being a clueless 'dipper-in' about cinema, compared to people who really care about it.

Maybe Corey might have an idea?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 19, 2011, 02:15:05 PM
Quote from: Renfield on September 19, 2011, 12:58:23 PM
I definitely have an answer to 'game' - Planescape: Torment. This really is extremely close to Mahler's world.

Books? Bukowski often makes me think of Mahler, not just because he liked him too.

Hemingway too, in his more sombre moments (Farewell to Arms), and of course Rückert (I'd reckon - haven't read him beyond the lieder), and many of Shakespeares' introspective passages (esp. sonnets). Dostoyevski? Not so much. But maybe Poe.


Art? Klimt is very aptly used for all those Mahler album covers, IMO, and not just because of any historical, or personal relation.

Also Munch, Hammershøi, and Gerhard Richter's depictions of death, off the top of my head,  relate to Mahler thematically.


Movies? You've got me there.

I simply don't have cinephile lore reaching into the period where I might expect to find Mahler-esque cinema, though modern art-cinema like - odd example that comes to mind - 'The Counterfeiters' (Die Fälscher carries the late Mahler tragic, dark, ironic edge.

Still, I openly admit to being a clueless 'dipper-in' about cinema, compared to people who really care about it.

Maybe Corey might have an idea?
Wow, good stuff here. Planescape:Torment I will play one day. I played the first 10 minutes of OgreBattle 64, and I wonder just how that may turn out  8).

Farewell to Arms I read when I was in middle school, but let's just say I just failed at "getting" it. That was so long ago- let's just pretend I never read it.  ;)

Klimt is a good mention (this was the guy whose artwork was in Elfen Lied, after all). Speaking of anime, there are countless I could think of worthy of mentioning, but almost all have a setting completely alien to Mahler's world. Monster takes place in Germany, and is very much intriguing and epic, but lacks the emotional touch of Mahler. If I had to choose what resembles his emotional touch in any format other than music, I'd go with Mahou Shoujo Madoka- precisely the last few episodes. That's like the visual depiction of the Adagio of the 9th right there!  :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 19, 2011, 04:26:19 PM
I think there is a certain cadence that should be called the "Mahler cadence."


(key of C maj)
Treble
E        D C

Bass
F
B           E
D           G
G           C

aka V7add6-V7-I

(even my little brother recognized it). His favorite music right now, if he had to choose, would be the 7th or 8th symphony, but he's not completely familiar with all of his stuff yet.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 19, 2011, 06:50:22 PM
Quote from: Greg on September 19, 2011, 02:15:05 PM

Farewell to Arms I read when I was in middle school, but let's just say I just failed at "getting" it. That was so long ago- let's just pretend I never read it.  ;)



Someone had you read "Farewell to Arms" in middle school!  I don't think it's possible for someone that age to "get" it, unless they were extraordinarily mature for their age. 

And I don't think FtA would be the most Mahler like work--if you were going to pick Hemingway, I'd go for The Old Man and the Sea or Death in the Afternoon.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 19, 2011, 07:59:58 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 19, 2011, 06:50:22 PM
Someone had you read "Farewell to Arms" in middle school!  I don't think it's possible for someone that age to "get" it, unless they were extraordinarily mature for their age. 
Well, I chose to read it. We all had to read books and take tests and get a certain amount of points by the end of each semester. I don't remember why I chose it, but I bet it was because it had a lot of points.  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 20, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 19, 2011, 06:50:22 PM
Someone had you read "Farewell to Arms" in middle school!  I don't think it's possible for someone that age to "get" it, unless they were extraordinarily mature for their age. 

And I don't think FtA would be the most Mahler like work--if you were going to pick Hemingway, I'd go for The Old Man and the Sea or Death in the Afternoon.

Yeah, by no means was I going for 'most Mahler-like Hemingway'. Just an example of Hemingway 'Mahlering', as it were.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2011, 12:22:36 PM
Quote from: Greg on September 19, 2011, 04:26:19 PM

...my little brother....His favorite music right now, if he had to choose, would be the 7th or 8th symphony

Your kid brother likes the Eighth? Wow. I'm impressed. Really. It's unusual. Half the self-professed Mahlerites on this forum don't like it  ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 20, 2011, 12:38:30 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2011, 12:22:36 PM
Your kid brother likes the Eighth? Wow. I'm impressed. Really. It's unusual. Half the self-professed Mahlerites on this forum don't like it  ;D


Sarge

They're just in denial. $:)

For what it's worth, the 8th was within the first three Mahler symphonies I came to love - the last one (of the nine) being the 3rd.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
Quote from: Renfield on September 20, 2011, 12:38:30 PM...the last one (of the nine) being the 3rd.

The Third was my problem child too. Loved the first movement but couldn't get beyond that for...well, decades.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 20, 2011, 01:24:47 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
The Third was my problem child too. Loved the first movement but couldn't get beyond that for...well, decades.

Sarge

I guess I should be glad I managed a somewhat shorter incubation period!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 20, 2011, 03:00:52 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2011, 12:22:36 PM
Your kid brother likes the Eighth? Wow. I'm impressed. Really. It's unusual. Half the self-professed Mahlerites on this forum don't like it  ;D


Sarge
Yeah, I like it, too, but am not exceptionally crazy about it- my least favorite out of all of them. Having 7 and 8 as favorites is like having the two most difficult symphonies to appreciate/understand that he's written. I told him that a lot of people have a hard time understanding the 7th, but he said, "What's there to understand? It's just music!"  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 20, 2011, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2011, 12:22:36 PM
Your kid brother likes the Eighth? Wow. I'm impressed. Really. It's unusual. Half the self-professed Mahlerites on this forum don't like it  ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
The Third was my problem child too. Loved the first movement but couldn't get beyond that for...well, decades.
Sarge
Quote from: Greg on September 20, 2011, 03:00:52 PM
I told [my little brother] that a lot of people have a hard time understanding the 7th, but he said, "What's there to understand? It's just music!"

I find that the dislike of the 8th among Mahlerites is to some very considerable degree affected; it's part of the 'good tone' to not like the 8th, "that tearjerker" of a symphony. Perhaps because they are afraid of association with the seemingly juvenile.
But it's hardly a difficult-to-understand Symphony (on a superficial level; on a deeper level one ought perhaps know Faust II as well as Mahler did himself, which was very nearly by heart). And the finale is simply awesome... as is the fact that it's gargantuan and big and loud and this and that. Every conductor can (if so inclined) feel like a kid again. (Not that those are the performances with the best results, of course.)

The 3rd, now... yes. Toughest nut, save for the 7th.

Greg's little brother seems to have the best answer to it... a beautiful answer. A lot like Yannick N-S's (musical) answer, actually.  (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-nezet-seguin.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 21, 2011, 04:41:43 AM
I liked the the 7th right from the start, the 3rd not at all but listened occasionally out of a sense of duty until one day I suddenly loved it and now it's one of my faves. But I've never liked the 8th much and rarely choose to put it on.  Front-loaded with too much bombast, yet there is much loveliness within. 

P.S. Unlike Jens, I'd have thought that liking the 8th is to some degree affected, as the mark of the true Mahlerian who gets what lesser mortals fail to appreciate. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on September 21, 2011, 05:36:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 20, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
The Third was my problem child too. Loved the first movement but couldn't get beyond that for...well, decades.

Really? How could you live without the last movement for so long?  ;)

8 was and still is my problem child. I just can't warm up to it. Had trouble with 7 for a long while too but it's now a favorite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on September 21, 2011, 08:13:51 AM
I never had trouble with the 7th, don't get why it's supposed to be "difficult".  The 8th is problematic due to the difficulty in hearing everything and hearing the gist of where everything is going.  On top of that the bombastic opening doesn't fit at all with the rest of the symphony.  In comparison, the 7th has a much stronger sense of narrative.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 21, 2011, 08:45:24 AM
One thing that applies to the 8th to a very great extent is the old 'you have to hear it live' caveat. Despite coming to love the 8th long before I heard it in concert, the experience really is quite enhanced by having it resolve itself around you (cf. 'planets and suns').

Presumably, those of you with extremely high-end audio systems that can precisely replicate concert hall acoustics may manage to replicate the experience, given a spectacularly well-recorded performance; but that (the latter) is in itself a great challenge.


Either way, the 'bombastic' ending (presumably the bit after that apotheosis of tenderness that is Alles Vergängliche) really does become - or to my ears became - a kind of aural picture of transcendence, rather than any sort of triumphal gesture, when you're 'in it'.

Which I guess may be the problem with many people: the being 'in it', in general - a core requirement to feeling the 8th, so to speak.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on September 21, 2011, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 21, 2011, 08:45:24 AM
One thing that applies to the 8th to a very great extent is the old 'you have to hear it live' caveat. Despite coming to love the 8th long before I heard it in concert, the experience really is quite enhanced by having it resolve itself around you. Presumably, those of you with extremely high-end audio systems that can precisely replicate concert hall acoustics may have a similar experience, given a spectacularly well-recorded; which is in itself a great challenge.

Either way, the 'bombastic' ending (presumably the bit after that apotheosis of tenderness that is Alles Vergängliche) really does become - or to my ears became - a kind of aural picture of transcendence, rather than any sort of triumphal gesture, when you're 'in it'.

Which I guess may be the problem with many people: the being 'in it', in general - a core requirement to feeling the 8th, so to speak.

Sounds like someone else discussing the Gothic.  ;)

I have heard neither one LIVE but based on the recording(s), I marginally prefer the Gothic, even though I am much more a Mahlerite and a Brianite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 21, 2011, 08:49:02 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 21, 2011, 08:47:14 AM
Sounds like someone else discussing the Gothic.  ;)

I have heard neither one LIVE but based on the recording(s), I marginally prefer the Gothic, even though I am much more a Mahlerite and a Brianite.

Drat, you've quoted me before I was done editing. Now the versions are inconsistent! /pendant


But yes, I won't attempt to deny the charge of Johanning(!) over the Mahler 8th. I love the piece dearly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on September 21, 2011, 08:51:34 AM
Premature quotation deeply regretted.

:-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 08:54:42 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 21, 2011, 08:49:02 AM
Drat, you've quoted me before I was done editing. Now the versions are inconsistent! /pendant


But yes, I won't attempt to deny the charge of Johanning(!) over the Mahler 8th. I love the piece dearly.


Pardon?!  ;D


I have always loved the opening movement of the Eighth, by the way....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on September 21, 2011, 08:57:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 08:54:42 AM

I have always loved the opening movement of the Eighth, by the way....

It's the only part of the 8th that I like so far. At this rate, I should crack the work in its entirety before I reach 100, by which time I hope I still have my hearing in tact.

Good thing the work is loud enough.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 21, 2011, 09:11:35 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 21, 2011, 08:51:34 AM
Premature quotation deeply regretted.

:-[

:D


Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 08:54:42 AM

Pardon?!  ;D


Whoever said it's a bad thing?!

'to Johan over' - to express passionate admiration; to effervesce apropos of something, or its qualities.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 09:13:46 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 21, 2011, 09:11:35 AM
Whoever said it's a bad thing?!

'to Johan over' - to express passionate admiration; to effervesce apropos of something, or its qualities.


Detractors will take it as a synonym for 'to gush'! But it's a flattering neologism all the same. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 21, 2011, 09:39:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 09:13:46 AM

Detractors will take it as a synonym for 'to gush'! But it's a flattering neologism all the same. :)

'Detractors gonna detract', to adapt another neologism. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 21, 2011, 06:18:23 PM
I think a large part of the reason for the difficulty of the 8th is that many (including myself) find operatic singing problematic.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on September 21, 2011, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 21, 2011, 06:18:23 PM
I think a large part of the reason for the difficulty of the 8th is that many (including myself) find operatic singing problematic.

My problem is "Romantic" operatic singing, which I find veers towards simply screaming/screeching at certain points. I have absolutely no prblem with Barouqe or Classical singing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 21, 2011, 09:49:57 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 21, 2011, 09:26:30 PM
My problem is "Romantic" operatic singing, which I find veers towards simply screaming/screeching at certain points. I have absolutely no prblem with Barouqe or Classical singing.

Heh! Maybe Norrington will attempt to give us a Haydnesque 8th?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on September 21, 2011, 10:00:10 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 21, 2011, 09:49:57 PM
Heh! Maybe Norrington will attempt to give us a Haydnesque 8th?

Don't want that either. :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 21, 2011, 10:41:30 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 21, 2011, 10:00:10 PM
Don't want that either. :P

A lot of conductors try to de-pompositize the Mahler 8th, emphasizing the (plenty!) chamber-music-like qualities in it. Chailly likens it to Schoenberg's Kammersymphonie; Abbado's 8th for example, is very transparent. Wouldn't mind a Haydn-like approach to it. Especially not if it is like Haydn's Creation under McCreesh (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html). :-)

[P.S. I don't actually think that the result of Chailly's recorded M8 is particularly great...]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on September 21, 2011, 11:01:53 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 21, 2011, 10:41:30 PM
A lot of conductors try to de-pompositize the Mahler 8th, emphasizing the (plenty!) chamber-music-like qualities in it. Chailly likens it to Schoenberg's Kammersymphonie; Abbado's 8th for example, is very transparent.

Thanks for those suggestions. Will give those a try.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 11:15:28 PM
Being a  Wagnerian, I don't mind the singing. But why Part 2 of Symphony No. 8 isn't a movement I listen to very often is because the musical invention is too thin and, more importantly, there is no conflict. As there is nothing at stake, the whole piece becomes a series of static tableaux, with an assured outcome. (I have this problem too with Bruckner's Te Deum.) In Part 1 there is the threat of disintegration in the extended 'Accende' stretch in the middle, which makes the return of the 'Veni' all the more triumphant. No such dangers in Part 2.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on September 21, 2011, 11:23:58 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 11:15:28 PM
Being a  Wagnerian, I don't mind the singing. But why Part 2 of Symphony No. 8 isn't a movement I listen to very often is because the musical invention is too thin and, more importantly, there is no conflict. As there is nothing at stake, the whole piece becomes a series of static tableaux, with an assured outcome. (I have this problem too with Bruckner's Te Deum.) In Part 1 there is the threat of disintegration in the extended 'Accende' stretch in the middle, which makes the return of the 'Veni' all the more triumphant. No such dangers in Part 2.

I agree entirely.
I sometimes feel that Movement 1 of this symphony is underrated.
Nevertheless I admit: it's sometimes too massive for my taste.
But the build-up is great, and the closing bars are breathtaking.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 22, 2011, 11:24:06 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 11:15:28 PM
Being a  Wagnerian, I don't mind the singing. But why Part 2 of Symphony No. 8 isn't a movement I listen to very often is because the musical invention is too thin and, more importantly, there is no conflict. As there is nothing at stake, the whole piece becomes a series of static tableaux, with an assured outcome. (I have this problem too with Bruckner's Te Deum.) In Part 1 there is the threat of disintegration in the extended 'Accende' stretch in the middle, which makes the return of the 'Veni' all the more triumphant. No such dangers in Part 2.

A fascinating angle I'd not considered before. For me, the emotional power of Part 2 comes not from the outcome, which is as you say assured, but from sharing the musical experience of Faust's redemption, almost like a tone-poem with vocal commentary.

Consider the Hostias section of a Mass, wherein God is finally expected to accept the sacrifice, and accept the faithful into the eternal world (your Te Deum comparison being extremely apt).: it's the tension of the faithful's desire, and then subsequent expectation that 'makes the [liturgic] moment', so to speak. The thematic bridge between parts 1 and 2 in the Mahler 8th centres on this, in my view.

[That is to say, the believers subsequently expect their redemption, as I'd expect the morning bus, but in itself it is still powerful.]

Part 1 is about the desire for transcendence, and the uncertainty that it may never arrive.

Part 2 is about, first the expectation for, then the actual fulfillment of Part 1's wish, and the celebration of what it was that made the difference: what took us as listeners from unrequited desire, to categorical fulfillment, and transcendence. Namely love.


I admit I have not read the whole of Faust, least of all in German, but I'd expect the original text to not be dissimilar in spirit.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2011, 12:16:03 PM
Hm. Your contribution makes me think in my turn, Eugene! I must confess I have always found it difficult to see the connection between the Easter hymn of Part 1 and Part 2's Faust setting. Your post argues eloquently for the philosophical connection. It is certainly backed up by the musical connections that are there aplenty.


I 'know' Faust. I have read Faust 1 (in German) several times, and of Faust 2 (which is an enormously long, symbolic and rather undramatic work) I really love that final Act 5 of which Mahler sets a part of the conclusion. The problem for me there is that Mahler is very very selective - he only picks the transcendent, other-worldly bits. No Mephisto, no beautiful boy angels that catch the devil's eye, so that Faust's soul can be saved in the nick of time! Schumann's Faust setting is much more faithful to the richness of Goethe's text.


That said, from the moment the 'Blicket auf!' section starts, I shut up and the music carries me along.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 22, 2011, 01:01:16 PM
I see now what you'd be missing in the 'Faust' bit of the 8th. (And once again renew my promise to myself to read Faust.)

Re: philosophical connections, I suppose part of why I 'get' all of Mahler's symphonies quite naturally is that very predisposition I have of modelling everything conceptually, and looking for bits that match; of which there are aplenty in Mahler, both textually and musically.

(Of course, I may well sometimes find bits that 'match' only by accident, or in a different way than I 'match' them!)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on September 29, 2011, 11:24:14 AM
Has anybody read that one please ? any good ?

[asin]1571134670[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 29, 2011, 01:41:15 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 11:15:28 PM
Being a  Wagnerian, I don't mind the singing. But why Part 2 of Symphony No. 8 isn't a movement I listen to very often is because the musical invention is too thin and, more importantly, there is no conflict. As there is nothing at stake, the whole piece becomes a series of static tableaux, with an assured outcome. (I have this problem too with Bruckner's Te Deum.) In Part 1 there is the threat of disintegration in the extended 'Accende' stretch in the middle, which makes the return of the 'Veni' all the more triumphant. No such dangers in Part 2.
I love this.  It reminds me of just how much reasonable people can differ, depending on their tastes and experience.  It's Part 1 that I have trouble with, not Part 2.  ;D 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 29, 2011, 11:20:48 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 29, 2011, 01:41:15 PM
I love this.  It reminds me of just how much reasonable people can differ, depending on their tastes and experience.  It's Part 1 that I have trouble with, not Part 2.  ;D 8)


Why? That would interest me!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 29, 2011, 11:49:11 PM
I'm actually fairly certain a lot of people have trouble with Act 1, in so far as it's the most 'unsymphonic' thing Mahler has written.

(At least prima facie - of course, its structure is very symphonic indeed, least of all for how Mahler uses the choirs like instruments.)


Edit: Nor a song cycle, obviously. It is quite unique.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on September 29, 2011, 11:54:01 PM
On a tangent to the post above: I suspect a transcription of the 8th for symphonic orchestra and organ(s) - standing in for the choir parts - might work very well, both musically and as a way to illustrate the structure that the LOUD FERVENT SINGING can obscure.

Now all I need is a lot of money and someone to commission it from.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 30, 2011, 05:46:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 29, 2011, 11:20:48 PM
Why? That would interest me!
This is a large part of the reason:
Quote from: Renfield on September 29, 2011, 11:54:01 PM
LOUD FERVENT SINGING
There are beautiful passages, but I have a low threshold for bombast.  Reflecting on how long the 3rd eluded me and how much I love it now, I keep trying with the 8th, even though I start wincing at the first bar. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2011, 01:11:15 AM
I don't regard it as bombast. To me it's just strong and massive. I like that. Bombast is when the material is thin and being inflated. I don't hear that in Part 1.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on October 02, 2011, 07:58:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/n2HLGdw309o
What does everyone think of this?
Mahler 9 Adagio for Organ.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 02, 2011, 08:07:01 PM
Quote from: Greg on October 02, 2011, 07:58:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/n2HLGdw309o
What does everyone think of this?
Mahler 9 Adagio for Organ.

Enjoyed that, thanks for sharing.  ;D

that movement could be played on kazoos and still be beautiful.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 02, 2011, 08:59:45 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2011, 01:11:15 AM
I don't regard it as bombast. To me it's just strong and massive. I like that. Bombast is when the material is thin and being inflated. I don't hear that in Part 1.

There's nothing wrong with some good, old fashion bombast. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 03, 2011, 06:02:53 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 21, 2011, 10:41:30 PM
A lot of conductors try to de-pompositize the Mahler 8th, emphasizing the (plenty!) chamber-music-like qualities in it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 08, 2011, 04:42:35 PM
Perhaps the Mahler Maniacs around here might enjoy this review by John Adams in last Sunday's Pravda...er...New York Times Book Review:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/books/review/gustav-mahler-by-jens-malte-fischer-book-review.html?_r=1
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on October 09, 2011, 01:11:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 02, 2011, 08:59:45 PM
There's nothing wrong with some good, old fashion bombast. :)
But why post it here?   ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Renfield on October 10, 2011, 03:50:59 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 08, 2011, 04:42:35 PM
Perhaps the Mahler Maniacs around here might enjoy this review by John Adams in last Sunday's Pravda...er...New York Times Book Review:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/books/review/gustav-mahler-by-jens-malte-fischer-book-review.html?_r=1

Thanks for the link!

I bought the Fischer book on my birthday, so the Adams perspective on it is quite informative as a sort of 'forward' to the volume.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on October 12, 2011, 05:48:45 PM
Here's some Weber that Mahler reconstructed and orchestrated.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DS4NAH4ft2I

I don't listen to Weber... does he normally sound like this? I know Mahler often conducted Weber, but many stretches of this sound like it could be in a Mahler scherzo. I'd imagine maybe Weber was a pretty big influence...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 12, 2011, 06:23:39 PM
Okay, so...

I was walking through a forest yesterday (a long story involving Seventh Graders and a field trip) by myself, and after several minutes I noticed that the Kalliwoda Symphony #4, which I had been running through my head, had faded away and something else was there now.

I was listening to it, without realizing precisely what it was, but it fit the rhythm of my marching feet and the autumnal forest surrounding me perfectly.

Yes!  The jaunty march from the First Movement of Mahler's Third Symphony had appeared in my mental ear to accompany my steps through the misty moisty flora!   8)

Has anything similar happened to you?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 14, 2011, 03:00:28 AM
Quote from: Greg on October 12, 2011, 05:48:45 PM
Here's some Weber that Mahler reconstructed and orchestrated.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DS4NAH4ft2I

I don't listen to Weber... does he normally sound like this?

No, Weber doesn't sound like this. This part of the reconstruction is almost entirely Mahler.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 14, 2011, 03:06:51 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 12, 2011, 06:23:39 PM

Yes!  The jaunty march from the First Movement of Mahler's Third Symphony had appeared in my mental ear to accompany my steps through the misty moisty flora!   8)

Has anything similar happened to you?

I live near the Rhine. Whenever I cross the Rheinbrücke in Worms, the second movement of Schumann's Third ("Rhenish") pops into my head. It's automatic and it's been happening for twenty years.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 14, 2011, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 14, 2011, 03:06:51 AM
I live near the Rhine. Whenever I cross the Rheinbrücke in Worms, the second movement of Schumann's Third ("Rhenish") pops into my head. It's automatic and it's been happening for twenty years.

Sarge

Very appropriate! 

The opening march of Mahler's Sixth Symphony was storming through me earlier...for a very good reason stemming from the indolence and ennui of my colleagues!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on October 18, 2011, 10:43:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 14, 2011, 03:00:28 AM
No, Weber doesn't sound like this. This part of the reconstruction is almost entirely Mahler.

Sarge
oh, hmmm that kinda sucks  :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 18, 2011, 12:22:04 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 14, 2011, 09:18:08 AM
Very appropriate! 

The opening march of Mahler's Sixth Symphony was storming through me earlier...for a very good reason stemming from the indolence and ennui of my colleagues!
Not the opening of Holst's Mars

BTW, I made a ring tone of the 6th's opening bars for my cell phone.  It lets me know when my wife is calling. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on October 21, 2011, 10:16:17 AM
QuoteThe next release, planned for December, will feature Sarah Connolly performing Mahler’s 'Totenfeier' and 'Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen' with the OAE under Vladimir Jurowski.

Yikes!!!

That's from Signum Classics, by the way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 25, 2011, 05:41:40 AM
About time I joined this topic, Mahler being my absolute favourite composer! (hence username! ;) )
I connect with Mahler more than with any other composer, so much is expressed is his music to the highest degree possible!
I love all his symphonies - although my absolute two favourites would be no.6 and no.9, these two pieces are my absolute favourite pieces of all time.

So I was rather excited to see the release of a new recording of no.6 from Pappano and his excellent orchestra in Saint Cecilia. This is a favourite combination of mine in terms of performers. However, I have never heard Pappano in Mahler before, can anyone tell me what he is like?
[asin]B005MLQF06[/asin]

As well as the Pappano, there is also the new Salonen recording I am looking forward to hearing soon. Anyone else excited about these new recordings? :)

Well, looking forward to sharing my love of Mahler with all of you!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 25, 2011, 05:50:53 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 25, 2011, 05:41:40 AM

So I was rather excited to see the release of a new recording of no.6 from Pappano and his excellent orchestra in Saint Cecilia. This is a favourite combination of mine in terms of performers. However, I have never heard Pappano in Mahler before, can anyone tell me what he is like?

As well as the Pappano, there is also the new Salonen recording I am looking forward to hearing soon. Anyone else excited about these new recordings? :)

Well, looking forward to sharing my love of Mahler with all of you!

I've briefly mentioned my response to Salonen 6th, but at least I agree with you that he's always a conductor, not just in Mahler, to always look forward to.

But how, why on earth would Pappano and Santa Cecilia be favorite performers of yours (or anyone, for that matter)??? What have they ever done that was exciting?
On record or live, I have never found them more, but occasionally well less than serviceable. And in Mahler, of all composers? Live? I can't imagine that this wasn't a
stipulation of Pappano for his EMI work that EMI only published because the RAI master cost them nothing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 25, 2011, 06:01:38 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 25, 2011, 05:50:53 AM
I've briefly mentioned my response to Salonen 6th, but at least I agree with you that he's always a conductor, not just in Mahler, to always look forward to.

But how, why on earth would Pappano and Santa Cecilia be favorite performers of yours (or anyone, for that matter)??? What have they ever done that was exciting?
On record or live, I have never found them more, but occasionally well less than serviceable. And in Mahler, of all composers? Live? I can't imagine that this wasn't a
stipulation of Pappano for his EMI work that EMI only published because the RAI master cost them nothing.

Yes, I remember reading about your disappointment in the Salonen Mahler 6, I'm going to give it a go though.

Hmmm... maybe 'favourite performers' was a little bit of an exaggeration... ;) My favourite combination would be Berlin Phil/Rattle probably, who I really hope would release some more Mahler recordings together!
But Pappano and that orchestra have made quite a few good recordings - such as the Tchaikovsky and Respighi recordings. These probably would not be a first choice for me anyway though...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 25, 2011, 06:41:34 AM
Oh, boy!  Another new Mahler disc to hear, always in hopes of finding something wonderful that lets me hear it in a new way.  On the other hand, I already have so many Mahler recordings that trying to do even a modest comparative listening survey is proving rather daunting!  (It would be easier if so many of them weren't so good!)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 25, 2011, 07:03:14 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 25, 2011, 06:41:34 AM
Oh, boy!  Another new Mahler disc to hear, always in hopes of finding something wonderful that lets me hear it in a new way.  On the other hand, I already have so many Mahler recordings that trying to do even a modest comparative listening survey is proving rather daunting!  (It would be easier if so many of them weren't so good!)

haha :) There have certainly been many recent Mahler recordings released! Out of some of the most recent recordings, I still have a lot of the Nott, Jurowski, Zinman and Tilson Thomas to listen to! It's going to take a lot to beat my old favourites of Solti, Chailly, Sinopoli and Bernstein though!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on October 25, 2011, 07:23:47 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 21, 2011, 10:16:17 AM
QuoteThe next release, planned for December, will feature Sarah Connolly performing Mahler's 'Totenfeier' and 'Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen' with the OAE under Vladimir Jurowski.

Yikes!!!

That's from Signum Classics, by the way.

Okay, I'll spell it out for you guys: Mahler to be played by an PI orchestra who specialise in Bach and Mozart!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 25, 2011, 07:31:23 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on October 25, 2011, 07:23:47 AM
Yikes!!!

That's from Signum Classics, by the way.


Okay, I'll spell it out for you guys: Mahler to be played by an PI orchestra who specialise in Bach and Mozart!

I'm seeing that orchestra in a concert of French impressionist music conducted by Rattle next year! Surely that's as different to their normal repetoire! Just goes to show they don't just do baroque/classical... not sure what the sound will be like though...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on October 25, 2011, 07:39:46 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 25, 2011, 07:31:23 AM
I'm seeing that orchestra in a concert of French impressionist music conducted by Rattle next year!

That's interesting. I wonder, if the programme has been planned over a year in advance, they must have had some success in doing this, dare I say, anachronistic business, yet I haven't seen a word written about this. (Not that I read read every review out there, but it should have caused at least a slight stir. ::))

Quotenot sure what the sound will be like though...

That's what I'm curious about. We have already seen how some people have reacted to Norrington's Mahler, but now this will probably be (for them) taking things too far (or long ago ;)).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 01, 2011, 09:27:48 AM
Hmmm, wonderful thread, Mahler was a genius  :)
Gustav Mahler is surely one of my favourite composers of all time; his music is extremely beautiful, overwhelming and thrilling, inspired by deep and intense feelings, it can always touch my heart so much!
I really love how Mahler moves the tonal language till the limits of its possibilities, with the brilliant use of a big orchestration, so to create such a powerful and involving music.
I especially adore the Symphonies, but also Das Lied von der Erde, Des Knaben Wunderhorn and Das Klagende Lied are very stunning.
What a pity Karajan, my absolute favourite conductor, never recorded all Mahler's symphonies.......
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bulldog on November 01, 2011, 09:36:45 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 25, 2011, 05:50:53 AM
But how, why on earth would Pappano and Santa Cecilia be favorite performers of yours (or anyone, for that matter)??? What have they ever done that was exciting?
On record or live, I have never found them more, but occasionally well less than serviceable. And in Mahler, of all composers? Live? I can't imagine that this wasn't a
stipulation of Pappano for his EMI work that EMI only published because the RAI master cost them nothing.

I don't have any Pappano recordings; his repertoire hasn't been enticing to me.  However, I'm aware of the praise he's received from many reviewers for recordings such as his Rossini Stabat Mater and the Verdi Requiem.  Mahler's 6th does entice me, so I'm likely to acquire this disc.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 01, 2011, 09:40:08 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 01, 2011, 09:27:48 AM
Hmmm, wonderful thread, Mahler was a genius  :)
Gustav Mahler is surely one of my favourite composers of all time; his music is extremely beautiful, overwhelming and thrilling, inspired by deep and intense feelings, it can always touch my heart so much!
I really love how Mahler moves the tonal language till the limits of its possibilities, with the brilliant use of a big orchestration, so to create such a powerful and involving music.
I especially adore the Symphonies, but also Das Lied von der Erde, Des Knaben Wunderhorn and Das Klagende Lied are very stunning.
What a pity Karajan, my absolute favourite conductor, never recorded all Mahler's symphonies.......

Hello Ilaria! :)

Obviously I agree with everything you say! :)
I agree, I which Karajan had recorded more Mahler!

Quote from: Bulldog on November 01, 2011, 09:36:45 AM
I don't have any Pappano recordings; his repertoire hasn't been enticing to me.  However, I'm aware of the praise he's received from many reviewers for recordings such as his Rossini Stabat Mater and the Verdi Requiem.  Mahler's 6th does entice me, so I'm likely to acquire this disc.
A lot of his repetoire in concert is very exciting, but not always his recording repetoire, at least for me! Obviously Mahler 6, being my favourite piece of all time, does entice me as well! So am very interested in it! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 01, 2011, 09:54:57 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 25, 2011, 05:41:40 AM

So I was rather excited to see the release of a new recording of no.6 from Pappano and his excellent orchestra in Saint Cecilia. This is a favourite combination of mine in terms of performers. However, I have never heard Pappano in Mahler before, can anyone tell me what he is like?
[asin]B005MLQF06[/asin]

I listened to Pappano's recording; it's certainly as passionate and powerful as I expect for Mahler's music, but the rythm isn't fast enough I think, a bit too slow.....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 01, 2011, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 01, 2011, 09:54:57 AM
I listened to Pappano's recording; it's certainly as passionate and powerful as I expect for Mahler's music, but the rythm isn't fast enough I think, a bit too slow.....

Thank you for your opinion - do you think it is still worth buying? Still not released in the UK yet, I don't think, so have a bit of time to decide! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 01, 2011, 01:11:00 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 01, 2011, 10:43:42 AM
Thank you for your opinion - do you think it is still worth buying? Still not released in the UK yet, I don't think, so have a bit of time to decide! :)

Well, I personally prefer other recordings, but of course it could be worth buying, why not? :) Anyway I suggest you to have a listen to it before purchasing, so you could judge better  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 01, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 01, 2011, 01:11:00 PM
Well, I personally prefer other recordings, but of course it could be worth buying, why not? :) Anyway I suggest you to have a listen to it before purchasing, so you could judge better  :)

Thank you Ilaria. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 02, 2011, 02:52:17 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 01, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
Thank you Ilaria. :)

You're welcome :)

Here are excerpts from Pappano's Mahler No.6, I don't know if you have already listened to them....
http://www.amazon.com/Antonio-Pappano-Mahler-6/dp/B005WAO6JY (http://www.amazon.com/Antonio-Pappano-Mahler-6/dp/B005WAO6JY)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on November 02, 2011, 02:57:29 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on November 02, 2011, 02:52:17 PM
You're welcome :)

Here are excerpts from Pappano's Mahler No.6, I don't know if you have already listened to them....
http://www.amazon.com/Antonio-Pappano-Mahler-6/dp/B005WAO6JY (http://www.amazon.com/Antonio-Pappano-Mahler-6/dp/B005WAO6JY)

Thank you for these Ilaria. Have listened to them before, they certainly do sound a little slow, and maybe a little dull as well... I'd still be interested to hear the whole recording though. Do  you know the new Salonen release, Ilaria? This one looks tempting to me, but I remember Jens found it less than satisfying...

Have a nice evening Ilaria! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 02, 2011, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on November 02, 2011, 02:57:29 PM
Thank you for these Ilaria. Have listened to them before, they certainly do sound a little slow, and maybe a little dull as well... I'd still be interested to hear the whole recording though. Do  you know the new Salonen release, Ilaria? This one looks tempting to me, but I remember Jens found it less than satisfying...

Have a nice evening Ilaria! :)

Of course I had already heard about the new Salonen release, I remember you also posted a reply about it on the "New Releases" thread, didn't you?  :) I admit I'm rather curious to listen to the whole recording, I usually like Salonen's conducting style very much.

Hmm, maybe Jens might be right, at least about what concerns the first movement; when I listened to it, it didn't completely give me that impression of huge beauty, intensity and power I expect for Mahler's music.
But I don't want to judge it by listening to only the excerpts.....

Have a nice evening too Daniel! ;)



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on November 12, 2011, 10:29:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/C4n9qurXr44
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on November 12, 2011, 11:39:53 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 12, 2011, 10:29:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/C4n9qurXr44

Wish I was born in the Big Apple around 1950 .... long live Lenny (and Gustav ;)).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on December 16, 2011, 11:06:31 PM
No posts in this thread for a month - What the hell is going on with GMG?

I have recently become a fan of the 8th symphony. In fact, it happened last night. After my boss treated me to Xmas dinner (+ nice wine) I came home and, on a whim, put on the Bertini recording. (I have recently been trying to encounter the Mahler works less familiar to me: Das Klangende Lied, the songs, DLvdE, the 3rd symphony - but based on an initial negative impression hadn't thought to bother with the 8th).

The choice of the Bertini recording was, in retrospect, vital. The musicianship is excellent across the board, and the sound is terrific. Anyway, after my initial surprise at not being repulsed by the bombast of the opening, I listened through it, paying attention and discovering all sorts of lovely moments it, like sweet fruit in an especially rich Xmas pudding.

When it was over, without pausing, I put the Rattle recording in the CD player. The sound in comparison was disappointing (and the baritone had too much wobble on his low notes) but the interpretation really worked for me. Rattle's rhetorical gestures tied the work together and made it cohere. The only problem was the ending: maybe Rattle was tired, maybe the engineers didn't give the sound the heft that earlier sections had enjoyed, but it just lacked the necessary transcendent quality. Hopefully Rattle will fix this in a Berlin recording.

After this, it was time for Solti. Overall, it is a "mixed bag": Obviously the sound is older, but richer and more exciting than that given to Rattle. The sound congests in the climaxes, and actually breaks up badly at the end of part 1. There are a few aural oddities as the result of studio foolery. Also, the tenor on the right side of the stereo sounds like he is stuck down the bottom of a well - most unfortunate. There is some great singing, and moments of great beauty, but as always with Solti one feels that the final degree of delicacy can not be provided as needed.

I listened to the above on headphones. This morning I listened to Tennstedt's first recording on speakers. As much as I like Tennstedt in Mahler, I can't call this a great performance. The interpretation seems "bitty", without an overall vision. Also, the sound is not pleasant, and in part 2 a solo tenor flats some high notes painfully.

So at the moment I'd put Bertini and Rattle at the top of my list. The Bertini demonstrates the importance of good sound for recordings of this vastly complicated work, so I'm really not interested in older recordings. But easygoing Bertini is not the last word in interpretation; for that, I would turn to Rattle, despite the above equivocations.

Any other recommendations for the glorious 8th?



EDIT: I hesitate to make the comparison, but part 2 reminds me of side 2 of the Beatles Abbey Road album - in the way it is an overabundance of great individual moments that sort of tumble over each other in an orgy of melodism.

EDIT 2: I have so far not looked at the libretto. I am one who believes that music should not be subservient to prose, so I want to get familiar with the music before I get round to discovering what the singers are singing about.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 17, 2011, 01:12:48 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 16, 2011, 11:06:31 PM

Any other recommendations for the glorious 8th?

First and foremost, Ozawa. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html)

Lacking availability, this one: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-3.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/12/best-recordings-of-2011-3.html)



QuoteEDIT 2: I have so far not looked at the libretto. I am one who believes that music should not be subservient to prose, so I want to get familiar with the music before I get round to discovering what the singers are singing about.

The composers whose music you appreciate might not agree with you. Faust II was elemental to Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 17, 2011, 03:11:09 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 16, 2011, 11:06:31 PM
Any other recommendations for the glorious 8th?


Glad you are becoming a fan of the 8th. Such a glorious, beautiful piece. I agree with most of the comments you say.
My highest recommendation for this symphony would be Sinopoli's, it is definitely my absolute favourite recording of the work. An absolutely stunning reading of the score, and a highlight of his cycle.
Here it is, coupled with an excellent reading of the adagio from 10.
[asin]B000024573[/asin]

I really cannot recommend it enough!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 17, 2011, 05:16:53 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 16, 2011, 11:06:31 PM
Any other recommendations for the glorious 8th?

I definitely recommend Bernstein's version on DG, it's the most powerful, intense and passionate recording of Mahler No.8 I've ever listened to.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ACPW4NFBL._SL500_AA300_.gif)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on December 17, 2011, 06:47:58 AM
I agree regarding the Bertini from his EMi box set. The Bertini M8 is blazing, and impeccably paced with great uplifting detail...and the soloists are among the best blends I've heard. 

The DVD of Rattle's EMI commercial recording is better than the CD...oh man, the sound is miles above the CD, and the score is opened in a glorious rush of sound with interesting twists and turns, the tempos well chosen and very elegantly handled by the singers and instruments.  Splendid! 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61qUiDWekdL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Boulez M8 is also very good, with great climaxes, and this CD has great sound.  His Part II is reminiscent of Maazel's reading (from his first cycle), in particular the slowness of the orchestral prelude, only with better sound. Edward Seckerson (Gramophone) stated that he never heard a performance that was so unidiomatic of Mahler, been so enjoyable to listen to.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gHkVz2AYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qF4MsWYAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've been comparing MTT's M8 with Zinman's account and find I love both equally...with the MTT sounding better sonically. 

The MTT M8 sounds more impressive after each hearing.  What impresses me most is the playing of the SFSO and the sonics.  The playing sounds so esquisite and the sonics beautifully capture the acoustics of the hall. 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tEDPtJunL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F78C8UvUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Both Witt and Gergiev revealed to me the true wonder and spirit of the M8...and frankly, these recordings make me truly love the M8, the hardest nut to crack in the Mahler canon for me.  I am totally floored and really, what can I really say to do justice to the power of these performances?

As I lover of echo and reverb, I was simply in heaven when listening to Gergiev's account (recorded in St.Paul's Cathedrel) but the details still shine through (like the Antoni Wit acccount on Naxos).

For me, the Horenstein, Gergiev and Witt are cosmic sounding M8s. They sound like Mahler's description of his original inspiration.

The Zinman and MTT, are among the most musical, and beautiful I have heard.

Rattle (EMI) and Inbal's (on Denon) accounts are among the most exciting.

There are so many...thank God!



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on December 17, 2011, 07:31:37 PM
I've listened over the past couple of days to two new DVD releases of M2--Gilbert/NYPhil and Chailly/Gewandhaus. (Both are released by Accentus.) A slight preference for the Chailly, although I haven't listened to either one enough to give detailed criticisms.   Two possible reasons--Chailly (who is filmed much more prominently than Gilbert) has a clear attitude that shows he's enjoying the music;  Gilbert is rather more serious looking.  Maybe he really enjoys it, but he doesn't show it much.  Second,  the New York DVD has a false sense of occasion--it was the NYPhil's observance of the 10th anniversary of 9/11. So we get shots of New York skyline and the crowd outside watching the concert on big screens, and some stray shots of New York traffic (not very relevant in the Andante, but very witty--a speeded up clip of Times Square at night--in the Scherzo), plus the National Anthem and a little speech by Gilbert.  The Leipzig DVD focuses entirely on the music.

BTW, Chailly  actually observes a slight break after the first movement--not as long as Mahler's instructions, but still long enough,  stepping off the podium and standing for a minute or so in a prayerful attitude before looking up with an eager smile and stepping back onto the podium (where he then waits for the soloists to make their entrance on to the stage and take their seats).

The Chailly/Gewandhaus DVD of M8 is on back order; I'll report on that when I get it.

Currently my favorite M8s (all on CD) are MTT (except for a chewy James Morris), Inbal (the most overall coherence) and Bernstein/Sony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 01:02:30 PM
A fascinating snippet of Deryck Cooke interviewing composer Egon Wellesz about Mahler the conductor:


http://www.viddler.com/explore/DeryckCookeWeb/videos/7/ (http://www.viddler.com/explore/DeryckCookeWeb/videos/7/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 01:02:30 PM
A fascinating snippet of Deryck Cooke interviewing composer Egon Wellesz about Mahler the conductor:


http://www.viddler.com/explore/DeryckCookeWeb/videos/7/ (http://www.viddler.com/explore/DeryckCookeWeb/videos/7/)

Very interesting. Thanks for that, Johan. I'm a bit skeptical though. How accurate is memory 50+ years after the fact? Wellesz would have been between 12 and 22 when he heard Mahler conduct. Considering my own experience: if I didn't have recordings to reinforce memory, I wonder what I would recall, and say about, for example, George Szell's conducting?

It's a tragedy (for Mahlerites, anyway) that he didn't live another ten to fifteen years. If he had, we'd have recordings.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 01:30:45 PM
I'm a bit skeptical though. How accurate is memory 50+ years after the fact? Wellesz would have been between 12 and 22 when he heard Mahler conduct. Considering my own experience: if I didn't have recordings to reinforce memory, I wonder what I would recall, and say about, for example, George Szell's conducting?

It's a tragedy (for Mahlerites, anyway) that he didn't live another ten to fifteen years. If he had, we'd have recordings.


Well, he could have kept a diary. Or he could simply have been very alert and alive. I know I was, even as young as 12. At that age things can strike you and imprint themselves on the brain like in no other period of your life.


And yes - why did Mahler have to die so young? And I'm 50 myself now...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 01:50:07 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 01:36:54 PMAt that age things can strike you and imprint themselves on the brain like in no other period of your life.

That's what our brains tell us...but I wonder if that's really true. I have frequent debates with old friends about what really happened when we were 16, 17. We seldom agree  ;D

Anyway, the contradictions, between his memory and the memory of others, bother me. I don't know who to believe.

Edit: And the recordings by his disciples don't help: can there be three more diverse conductors of Mahler than Mengelberg, Walter and Klemperer?

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 01:54:52 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 01:50:07 PM
That's what our brains tell us...but I wonder if that's really true. I have frequent debates with old friends about what really happened when we were 16, 17. We seldom agree  ;D


:D  Well, I still have hundreds of pages of notes which chart my intellectual journey. But that's the writer for you...

QuoteAnyway, the contradictions, between his memory and the memory of others, bother me. I don't know who to believe.


I see your point. Have you read the whole of De la Grange? I haven't. But does Wellesz' description differ much from what you can learn there?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 02:01:05 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 01:54:52 PM
:D  Well, I still have hundreds of pages of notes which chart my intellectual journey. But that's the writer for you...

Yes, I often win debates simply because I've kept every letter I've ever received (and reposessed many I sent). And because I wrote poetry about my experiences. It's fun to produce evidence. That gotcha moment is priceless  ;D

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 01:54:52 PM
I see your point. Have you read the whole of De la Grange? I haven't. But does Wellesz' description differ much from what you can learn there?

The impression I've always had is the same as Cooke's: that Mahler was far more flexible than Wellesz maintains. But maybe my memory is faulty here  ;)


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on December 18, 2011, 04:40:41 PM
Thanks to those who responded regarding the 8th. BTW, after blowing out on this work over the weekend, I am now absolutely sick of it and do not want to hear it again for at least a year!

Is it true that Mahler wrote it in 10 weeks?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on December 18, 2011, 07:29:53 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 01:50:07 PM
That's what our brains tell us...but I wonder if that's really true. I have frequent debates with old friends about what really happened when we were 16, 17. We seldom agree  ;D

Just this weekend I got together with one of my two best friends and tried to piece together the story of how we met - which happened just three and a half years ago. It took us an hour and several glasses of stout to figure out how we met, but then we turned to how we met the other two members of our nuclear friend-circle and were, and remain, completely stumped. I only have solid, firm memories of meeting one of these three people, but her memory directly contradicts mine. So I can honestly say I don't remember how I met any of my best friends, only a few years after making them.

On the other hand, I can remember Neeme Jarvi conducting Tubin in Detroit when I was 13, and his podium style at the time. We classical music fans - the musical parts of our memories are much, much sharper than everything else, I think!  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on December 18, 2011, 10:31:43 PM
I have written elsewhere about performances I have been involved in. It is not merely memory that is unreliable. I lambasted Boulez for his inflexible Mahler 8. There were so many vivid memories around that specific performance and the opinion of the performance itself was formed at once and agreed with by those around me in the choir.

Over 20 years later an off-air BBC recording of the performance surfaced and I had to eat my words most thoroughly. I contrasted this with a fascinating Mahler 2 I had been in, which had been recorded for TV and which, when broadcast, came over as plain old boring. When I explained this Karl commented that sometimes the soldiers in the trenches are not best placed to grasp how the battle went.

I know that is from a specific point of view from within performances; but I have lots of other memories of simply attending: I wonder how accurate they are? Some folk do have excellent memories; but that needs to be allied to good critical judgement to have any real use to it.

Memory is a mysterious creature.

BTW, although no more Mahler 8s are being asked for, I suggest two live ones: Wyn Morris and the newly released live Tennstedt.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 03:02:51 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 18, 2011, 04:40:41 PM
Thanks to those who responded regarding the 8th. BTW, after blowing out on this work over the weekend, I am now absolutely sick of it and do not want to hear it again for at least a year!

Is it true that Mahler wrote it in 10 weeks?

:o  ;)

Well, in a years time, make sure to listen to the Sinopoli!

Maybe you should move on to Mahler 6 now! :D

And I think 10 weeks sounds about right.... he wrote it within the summer of 1906.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2011, 03:49:19 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 03:02:51 AM
.... he wrote it within the summer of 1906.

Yes, from mid-June to mid-August during his annual vacation. "On the first morning morning of vacation I went up to my Häuschen in Maiernigg, firmly resolved to be lazy (I needed it so badly) and gather my strength. As soon as I entered my old, familiar workroom, the Spiritus creator took hold of me, shaking me and scourging me for eight weeks, until the main part was finished."

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2011, 03:49:19 AM
Yes, from mid-June to mid-August during his annual vacation. "On the first morning morning of vacation I went up to my Häuschen in Maiernigg, firmly resolved to be lazy (I needed it so badly) and gather my strength. As soon as I entered my old, familiar workroom, the Spiritus creator took hold of me, shaking me and scourging me for eight weeks, until the main part was finished."

Sarge

Amazing how such a masterpiece with such powerful forces in size and duration could be completed in such a short time.... I really must visit Mahler's working hut one day, and make it a pilgrimage!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2011, 05:44:42 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
Amazing how such a masterpiece with such powerful forces in size and duration could be completed in such a short time.... I really must visit Mahler's working hut one day, and make it a pilgrimage!
You mean you haven't been there? And you call yourself a Mahler fan!!!  :-* :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2011, 05:48:57 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
Amazing how such a masterpiece with such powerful forces in size and duration could be completed in such a short time....

What are you talking about?! Two months' uninterrupted composing? Luxury! : )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 05:58:01 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2011, 05:44:42 AM
You mean you haven't been there? And you call yourself a Mahler fan!!!  :-* :)

I have been hoping to for a while - the problem is that I live in England - persuading my parents to take me to Vienna is rather difficult, considering my mum is not too keen on music, plus we would have to drag my sister who would moan the whole time and ruin the experience as she is one of those people who claims classical music is boring when she spends her time listening to the likes of Justin Bieber and so on.....
I was told though that they may take me there as a present after graduation. ;)

Quote from: karlhenning on December 19, 2011, 05:48:57 AM
What are you talking about?! Two months' uninterrupted composing? Luxury! : )
not often do us composers get it....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2011, 06:02:33 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 05:58:01 AM
I have been hoping to for a while - the problem is that I live in England - persuading my parents to take me to Vienna is rather difficult, considering my mum is not too keen on music, plus we would have to drag my sister who would moan the whole time and ruin the experience as she is one of those people who claims classical music is boring when she spends her time listening to the likes of Justin Bieber and so on.....
I was told though that they may take me there as a present after graduation. ;)
Oops. I was just ribbing you. It is not exactly free either. Does Bieber ever perform in Vienna? Two birds, one stone... :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 06:08:49 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2011, 06:02:33 AM
Oops. I was just ribbing you. It is not exactly free either.
Ah  :P
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2011, 06:02:33 AM
Does Bieber ever perform in Vienna? Two birds, one stone... :)

I hope he doesn't....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 19, 2011, 07:07:03 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
Amazing how such a masterpiece with such powerful forces in size and duration could be completed in such a short time.... I really must visit Mahler's working hut one day, and make it a pilgrimage!

QuoteYou mean you haven't been there? And you call yourself a Mahler fan!!!

:)

You've already been in Italy, but I don't think you've already visited Dobbiaco (Toblach): there Mahler spent his summer holidays from 1908 to 1910 and composed the 9th symphony, the unfinished 10th symphony and Das Lied von Der Erde, and there are several places commemorating the great austrian composer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 07:11:18 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on December 19, 2011, 07:07:03 AM
:)

You've already been in Italy, but I don't think you've already visited Dobbiaco (Toblach): there Mahler spent his summer holidays from 1908 to 1910 and composed the 9th symphony, the unfinished 10th symphony and Das Lied von Der Erde, and there are several place commemorating the great austrian composer.

Thank you for telling me of this, Ilaria. I shall try and persuade my parents to take me there as well! ;) I have sent your card by the way, Ilaria. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 19, 2011, 07:16:43 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 07:11:18 AM
Thank you for telling me of this, Ilaria. I shall try and persuade my parents to take me there as well! ;) I have sent your card by the way, Ilaria. :)

Thank you so much Daniel, I will send mine tomorrow (when I came back from school today, the post office has still been closed :( ).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 08:01:44 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on December 19, 2011, 07:16:43 AM
Thank you so much Daniel, I will send mine tomorrow (when I came back from school today, the post office has still been closed :( ).

Pleasure! :) Thank you! :) I hope our cards arrive in time!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 09:13:38 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2011, 06:02:33 AM
Oops. I was just ribbing you. It is not exactly free either. Does Bieber ever perform in Vienna? Two birds, one stone... :)


Bieber in Wien. Has a nice ring. Don't forget your camera for your Bieber shot.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on December 19, 2011, 09:47:02 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 19, 2011, 06:02:33 AM
Does Bieber ever perform in Vienna? Two birds, one stone... :)
More like two stones, one dead lesbian...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on December 19, 2011, 03:45:41 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 19, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
Amazing how such a masterpiece with such powerful forces in size and duration could be completed in such a short time.... I really must visit Mahler's working hut one day, and make it a pilgrimage!

All that way, just to look at a shed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 12:45:42 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 19, 2011, 03:45:41 PM
All that way, just to look at a shed.

I once drove 1250 miles just to look at poet Conrad Aiken's gravestone. Well, more than look: it's shaped like a bench. He wanted people to come and sit with him   8)  There are some pilgrimages one simply has to make.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 20, 2011, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 19, 2011, 03:45:41 PM
All that way, just to look at a shed.


I would be honoured and excited to just stand on the same ground as Mahler did.... to see the place where some of the world's greatest creations (his works) were written would be amazing.... 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on December 20, 2011, 05:14:14 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 20, 2011, 03:47:49 AM
I would be honoured and excited to just stand on the same ground as Mahler did....

Mahler visited London in 1892. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 20, 2011, 07:15:41 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on December 20, 2011, 05:14:14 AM
Mahler visited London in 1892. ;)

;D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on December 20, 2011, 11:16:34 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 20, 2011, 03:47:49 AM
I would be honoured and excited to just stand on the same ground as Mahler did.... to see the place where some of the world's greatest creations (his works) were written would be amazing....

It is a reconstruction: Ken Russell firebombed it for the opening sequence of his 'Mahler' film.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on December 26, 2011, 10:29:21 AM
(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-mtt-mahler8.jpg)

More and more, this recording convinces me of the greatness of this work. The performance is truly engrossing and the orchestral detail is ear candy.

8)





Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on December 26, 2011, 05:26:06 PM
Quote from: Leo K on December 26, 2011, 10:29:21 AM
(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-mtt-mahler8.jpg)

More and more, this recording convinces me of the greatness of this work. The performance is truly engrossing and the orchestral detail is ear candy.

8)

Yes, mostly.  The only problem I have with it is James Morris in Part II--he's not the only singer who has chewed his way through that passage (Shirley-Quirk under Solti is another prime example).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on December 27, 2011, 09:12:28 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 26, 2011, 05:26:06 PM
Yes, mostly.  The only problem I have with it is James Morris in Part II--he's not the only singer who has chewed his way through that passage (Shirley-Quirk under Solti is another prime example).

I actually like what James Morris does in Pt. II. So it goes! The Solti recording, on the other hand, kept me from the M8 for many years.

8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: stingo on December 27, 2011, 06:32:34 PM
The first I heard of the MTT M8 was in a preconcert conversation in Philadelphia (where of course they were playing M8). I was initially struck by the level of detail in the recording. I can't comment on the interpretation, but I would it imagine it pretty good based on MTT's comments about it on an NPR interview.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on December 27, 2011, 11:36:48 PM
Lots of Luscious Listening:

[ASIN]B000JJS7ES[/ASIN]
Siegfried Lorenz sings Kindertotenlieder, 5 Ruckert songs, Wayfarer songs, and four Wunderhorn songs (conducted by Masur, Herbig, Suitner)

[ASIN]B004CN8HWE[/ASIN]
Des Knaben Wunderhorn sung by Sarah Connolly and Dietrich Henschel, conducted by Herreweghe

[ASIN]B0001ZXMPO[/ASIN]
"Songs of youth", three other early songs, and the Wayfarer songs sung by Janet Baker with Geoffrey Parsons at the piano

All received or bought today, the first two because I thought the samples sounded terrific, the last for the sake of completeness, although I'm not really a Baker fan. Any recommendations for alternate "songs of youth" recordings? I don't suppose anyone has orchestrated them....

Are these all the songs there are?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on December 28, 2011, 06:54:17 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 27, 2011, 11:36:48 PM


[ASIN]B0001ZXMPO[/ASIN]
"Songs of youth", three other early songs, and the Wayfarer songs sung by Janet Baker with Geoffrey Parsons at the piano

All received or bought today, the first two because I thought the samples sounded terrific, the last for the sake of completeness, although I'm not really a Baker fan. Any recommendations for alternate "songs of youth" recordings? I don't suppose anyone has orchestrated them....

Are these all the songs there are?

I just ordered this off of Hyperion's "Please Buy Me" page. So the price now showing (5.6 GBP) may change very soon.  Obviously I can't tell you yet whether it's worth ordering in the first place.

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67392

The EMI and DG Complete Mahler boxes both offer a smorgasbord approach to the "Songs of Youth",  both offering a mix of performances:

DG:  Bernd Weikl/Sinopoli/Philharmonia Orchestra; Anne Sofie von Otter/Ralf Gothoni piano; Thomas Hampson/Luciano Berio/Philharmonia Orchestra; Thomas Hampson/David Lutz piano

not all of the orchestrations involved were by Mahler; the two songs which Berio conducted were orchestrated by him.

EMI:  Christa Ludwig/Gerald Moore piano; Katarina Karneus/Roger Vignoles piano; Brigitte Fassbaender/Irwin Gage piano; Alice Coote/Julius Drake piano; Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau/Daniel Barenboim piano.

I have no idea of the availability of the original releases, or what else was recorded with them by these artist.  The three earliest songs (they are the ones included in the Baker recording), were recorded specially for the EMI box by Ian Bostridge and Antonio Pappano (as pianist) and therefore are not available elsewhere;  in the DG box, they are part of the Hampson/Lutz performances.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 29, 2011, 12:02:54 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on December 27, 2011, 11:36:48 PMAny recommendations for alternate "songs of youth" recordings? I don't suppose anyone has orchestrated them....

These six (on the Baker disc) were orchestrated by Harold Byrns. They were coupled with Sinopoli's M2. They are also included in the box of complete Sinopoli Mahler recordings and, as Jeffrey said, in the complete Mahler box by DG.

Frühlingsmorgen
Zu Straßburg auf der Schanz
Ablösung im Sommer
Um schlimme Kinder artig zu machen
Selbstgefühl
Nichtwiedersehen


If you prefer Lucia Popp to Baker, this disc has a nice selection:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june2010/PoppMBlieder.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/mahlerpoppparsons.jpg)


Sarge



Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on January 03, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
I'm back, baby!

Thanks all for the recommendations. I am definitely interested in orchestrations of the early songs, so it looks like Weikl/Sinopoli and Hampson/Berio will be on the list. I only recently realised I have one of the Berio orchestrations in my Rattle Mahler box  - Ablösung im Sommer, appended to the 3rd because that symphony uses its themes. The orchestration of this would not have been too difficult, as Mahler' symphonic model could be used. BTW, the Wunderhorn songs with Keelyside and Rattle are really excellent - I'll have to see if Keelyside has done any more Mahler.

I returned to the 5th symphony this week, and listened through a bunch of versions. What do people think of this one - good, bad, indifferent? It was the first Mahler symphony I really got into, years ago, but now I'm not sure about it.... :( The outer movements seem a bit banal to me. The first mvt makes a lot of dramatic gestures, but I'm really not sure what it's saying. The finale is a showpiece, but I think I much prefer the "flashy" finale of the 7th, for all that it's almost twice as long.

BTW, Bertini really disproves his slowpoke reputation in this symphony. I think he has the shortest timings since Walter. One of his best. His 3rd, on the other hand, I'm afraid I've had to write off as just too long and too slack.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 04, 2012, 08:06:27 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on January 03, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
The first mvt makes a lot of dramatic gestures, but I'm really not sure what it's saying.
To me, emptiness and angst (in the development section).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 04, 2012, 08:30:26 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on January 03, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
I'm back, baby!

Thanks all for the recommendations. I am definitely interested in orchestrations of the early songs, so it looks like Weikl/Sinopoli and Hampson/Berio will be on the list. I only recently realised I have one of the Berio orchestrations in my Rattle Mahler box  - Ablösung im Sommer, appended to the 3rd because that symphony uses its themes. The orchestration of this would not have been too difficult, as Mahler' symphonic model could be used. BTW, the Wunderhorn songs with Keelyside and Rattle are really excellent - I'll have to see if Keelyside has done any more Mahler.

I returned to the 5th symphony this week, and listened through a bunch of versions. What do people think of this one - good, bad, indifferent? It was the first Mahler symphony I really got into, years ago, but now I'm not sure about it.... :( The outer movements seem a bit banal to me. The first mvt makes a lot of dramatic gestures, but I'm really not sure what it's saying. The finale is a showpiece, but I think I much prefer the "flashy" finale of the 7th, for all that it's almost twice as long.

BTW, Bertini really disproves his slowpoke reputation in this symphony. I think he has the shortest timings since Walter. One of his best. His 3rd, on the other hand, I'm afraid I've had to write off as just too long and too slack.

Actually, Bertini's M5 is my top choice. Also, Haitink's RCO (Phillips) and Bernstein's VPO (DG) helps make the M5 make sense. It is a very difficult work to enjoy, to be honest, but as a concept, it may be one of Mahler's most intriguing works. I love it, but it had to grow on me. It literally took years.



8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2012, 08:59:43 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on January 03, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
I returned to the 5th symphony this week, and listened through a bunch of versions. What do people think of this one - good, bad, indifferent? It was the first Mahler symphony I really got into, years ago, but now I'm not sure about it.... :( The outer movements seem a bit banal to me. The first mvt makes a lot of dramatic gestures, but I'm really not sure what it's saying. The finale is a showpiece, but I think I much prefer the "flashy" finale of the 7th, for all that it's almost twice as long.

BTW, Bertini really disproves his slowpoke reputation in this symphony. I think he has the shortest timings since Walter. One of his best. His 3rd, on the other hand, I'm afraid I've had to write off as just too long and too slack.

The 5th symphony was the first Mahler symphony I heard in full, along with the 4th symphony. They were both programmed in a BBC Prom concert, the performers being the World Orchestra for Peace conducted by Gergiev. It was a wonderful concert, and it was really the 5th symphony that made the greater impression on me, the 4th required a few listenings for me to fully understand it I suppose... But the 5th I loved from that very first time I heard it and I still love it very much now. Sure, it may not be quite as powerful or passionate as the symphonies to follow (my favourites!) but it is still an excellent piece IMHO, and I love it very much as I do all the Mahler symphonies. It's the inner movements that I love particularly.

In terms of recordings, mine has remained the RCO/Chailly recording. I am still yet to start the Bertini cycle although it is there waiting in my collection....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on January 05, 2012, 09:29:36 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on January 03, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
I returned to the 5th symphony this week, and listened through a bunch of versions. What do people think of this one - good, bad, indifferent? It was the first Mahler symphony I really got into, years ago, but now I'm not sure about it.... :( The outer movements seem a bit banal to me. The first mvt makes a lot of dramatic gestures, but I'm really not sure what it's saying. The finale is a showpiece, but I think I much prefer the "flashy" finale of the 7th, for all that it's almost twice as long.

When I hear the Fifth (in a good performance) I think it's my favorite Mahler symphony, and the final movement might be my favorite Mahler movement of all. Of course, then I hear No. 6 and have to completely re-evaluate...

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 05, 2012, 08:59:43 AM
In terms of recordings, mine has remained the RCO/Chailly recording. I am still yet to start the Bertini cycle although it is there waiting in my collection....

I've not heard Bertini's yet, but Chailly's is my favorite, too: his interpretation makes a lot of sense (no doubt, too "sensible" for some), and the orchestral playing is just phenomenal.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on January 05, 2012, 10:28:48 PM
Regarding the 5th, according to the liner notes for the Inoue CD, Mahler adjusted the orchestration each time he conducted the work, and in the last year of his life told a friend he wanted to reorchestrate the whole thing, saying something like "I can't believe I blundered like such a greenhorn!" Doubtless this gives permission for the completers to turn their attentions from the 10th to the 5th :D

I've been listening to recordings of the 7th. Tennstedt remains my favourite by far. Everyone else is too hard-bitten, trying to make it a Serious enterprise in a similar vein to 5 and 6. Only Tennstedt lets fantasy and whimsy rule.... :)


What are people's views on the Sinopoli cycle? I've begun considering it as a result of looking for recordings of the orchestrated early songs, but the reviews of the symphonies are rarely really positive. The impression I get is that the interpretations are generally slow and slack, albeit nicely recorded.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 06, 2012, 08:03:25 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on January 05, 2012, 10:28:48 PM



What are people's views on the Sinopoli cycle? I've begun considering it as a result of looking for recordings of the orchestrated early songs, but the reviews of the symphonies are rarely really positive. The impression I get is that the interpretations are generally slow and slack, albeit nicely recorded.

The most complete cycle, one of the most individual ones, and one of the most underrated.
All in all, one of the cycles I highly recommend.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 08:32:40 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on January 05, 2012, 10:28:48 PM
What are people's views on the Sinopoli cycle? I've begun considering it as a result of looking for recordings of the orchestrated early songs, but the reviews of the symphonies are rarely really positive.

Quote from: jlaurson on January 06, 2012, 08:03:25 AM
The most complete cycle, one of the most individual ones, and one of the most underrated.
All in all, one of the cycles I highly recommend.

Yeah, the reviews were rarely kind (as Jens said, underrated). But it's one of my favorite cycles too even though I'm no fan of his 2 and 5. He can be mannered (extreme tempos, especially on the slow side--which I love but you might not appreciate; odd but revealing instrumental balances). If you want those early songs it might be better, and far less expensive, to seek out a used copy of the Second. But if you're brave, and think you can stomach some quite individual ideas about Mahler, go for the cycle.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on January 06, 2012, 08:56:24 AM
If anyone wants Mahler 5 to talk to them, ie; music that seems to have a hidden narrative, it has got to be Inbal and the FRSO.  Inbal is one of my favourite conductors because he seems to do this in everything he does - his interpretations sound like the music is trying to speak to you, and what its saying is written all over the score.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 06, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
I have never moved on from the Barbirolli 5th. In this instance it was an example of the first version I heard getting so into my blood stream that I have never truly moved on from it despite enjoying other versions. Exactly the same has happened with the 9th and Barbirolli, though I do think the live Karajan is marvellous.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 06, 2012, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: knight66 on January 06, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
I have never moved on from the Barbirolli 5th. In this instance it was an example of the first version I heard getting so into my blood stream that I have never truly moved on from it despite enjoying other versions. Exactly the same has happened with the 9th and Barbirolli, though I do think the live Karajan is marvellous.

Mike

I generally love the Barbirolli 5th as well... although, I find the last movement a little too slow for my liking....

I agree with you about the Karajan 9th.... yet to hear the Barbirolli though, although, I have it ready for listening in my collection!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 01:00:40 PM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 06, 2012, 08:56:24 AM
If anyone wants Mahler 5 to talk to them, ie; music that seems to have a hidden narrative, it has got to be Inbal and the FRSO.  Inbal is one of my favourite conductors because he seems to do this in everything he does - his interpretations sound like the music is trying to speak to you, and what its saying is written all over the score.

During your absence I recalled what you said about Inbal and the Fifth, and with, admittedly skeptical ears, I listened to it. Surprise! It's everything you say, one of the great M5s. It's been added to my list of favorites.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 06, 2012, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 06, 2012, 08:56:24 AM
If anyone wants Mahler 5 to talk to them, ie; music that seems to have a hidden narrative, it has got to be Inbal and the FRSO.  Inbal is one of my favourite conductors because he seems to do this in everything he does - his interpretations sound like the music is trying to speak to you, and what its saying is written all over the score.

I agree that is a special M5. It's been awhile since I listened to it, but I remember feeling a narrative (for the first time) in hearing this symphony. I also love his M8, one of my favorites!

8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on January 06, 2012, 03:15:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 01:00:40 PM
During your absence I recalled what you said about Inbal and the Fifth, and with, admittedly skeptical ears, I listened to it. Surprise! It's everything you say, one of the great M5s. It's been added to my list of favorites.
Sarge

Thank you Leo K and Sarge.  It is great when we all hear the same thing.   :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on January 06, 2012, 05:51:33 PM
Quote from: knight66 on January 06, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
I have never moved on from the Barbirolli 5th. In this instance it was an example of the first version I heard getting so into my blood stream that I have never truly moved on from it despite enjoying other versions. Exactly the same has happened with the 9th and Barbirolli, though I do think the live Karajan is marvellous.

Mike
I felt that about Barbirolli for a long time with both symphonies; while I still rate the Barbirolli highly, it wasn't till I found Chailly and the Leipzig Neumann (in the 5th) and Ancerl (in the 9th) that I found recordings that added something extra to my view of the works. (Well, maybe the Scherchen 5ths for sheer fury and a hugely distended Adagietto, but there's no way they're on the same planet as anything remotely canonical.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 07, 2012, 06:15:15 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 06, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
I have never moved on from the Barbirolli 5th. In this instance it was an example of the first version I heard getting so into my blood stream that I have never truly moved on from it despite enjoying other versions. Exactly the same has happened with the 9th and Barbirolli, though I do think the live Karajan is marvellous.

Mike

I can share the feeling about me and the Bernstein 5th (on DG); althought I also love other versions of that symphony (Karajan, Solti, Zinman, Chailly, Abbado), I couldn't move on from Bernstein's performance, IMHO it's certainly one of the best recordings of Mahler No.5 ever made, for the perfect tempo, the great intensity, the inner beauty and passion and the orchestral brilliance.

I totally agree about the Karajan 9th, what a sublime recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 12:45:10 AM
There are very few recordings of anything non vocal where my first recording ends as my highly personal definitive one, but I do respond to Barbirolli's way, with music, I like the warmth he engenders. With the Mahler 9' someone here suggested that I try the Ancerl. He is a conductor I like a great deal. But I found his version too unemotional. For some of course, that would be a selling point, but I could not see it as a valid way to approach the piece.

Other Mahler 9s that I recommend are the live Maderna. This sounds to my ears like the music is being pushed forward and being made to sound more like the world of Schoenberg. Maderna was a composer and it is always interesting to experience one composer's view of another.

I like the Klemperer, clear eyed and less overt than Barbirolli. It is dark and dramatic and a quality I value in Klemperer that I notice strongly in his 2nd is the feeling of inevitability about the interpretation, the architecture is so thoroughly thought through. With that 9th you also get an itinally delicate then dramatic rendering of the Wagner Siegfried Idyll. The sound on this oldish recording is very good.

Finally, one that Tony T got me on to and that I would otherwise have ignored, to my loss. James Judd with the Mahler Youth Orchestra. This is a surprising front runner and has excellent sound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 08, 2012, 06:53:50 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 12:45:10 AM
Finally, one that Tony T got me on to and that I would otherwise have ignored, to my loss. James Judd with the Mahler Youth Orchestra. This is a surprising front runner and has excellent sound.

Sounds interesting.... shall go and search for it. Thank you Mike.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on January 08, 2012, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 12:45:10 AM
Other Mahler 9s that I recommend are the live Maderna. This sounds to my ears like the music is being pushed forward and being made to sound more like the world of Schoenberg. Maderna was a composer and it is always interesting to experience one composer's view of another.

I like the Klemperer, clear eyed and less overt than Barbirolli. It is dark and dramatic and a quality I value in Klemperer that I notice strongly in his 2nd is the feeling of inevitability about the interpretation, the architecture is so thoroughly thought through. With that 9th you also get an itinally delicate then dramatic rendering of the Wagner Siegfried Idyll. The sound on this oldish recording is very good.
That Maderna version has been on my wishlist for years. I really should just go ahead and get it: composers' Mahler often seems interesting (Boulez, Gielen and Zender all being exceptional interpreters of Mahler's music, without even mentioning Bernstein)

Good to see a mention of Klemperer's 9th, which seems to have somewhat disappeared behind the wayside; I've been particularly impressed by the finale in his reading--for me it comes over as stoic rather than tragic, and very effective I find it too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 08, 2012, 07:54:15 AM
Quote from: edward on January 08, 2012, 07:45:13 AM
Good to see a mention of Klemperer's 9th, which seems to have somewhat disappeared behind the wayside; I've been particularly impressed by the finale in his reading--for me it comes over as stoic rather than tragic, and very effective I find it too.

The first and last mvts. are the Klemp/Philh. partnership at their best. I have trouble with the rather sluggish inner mvts., though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 08:25:31 AM
Quote from: edward on January 08, 2012, 07:45:13 AM
That Maderna version has been on my wishlist for years. I really should just go ahead and get it: composers' Mahler often seems interesting (Boulez, Gielen and Zender all being exceptional interpreters of Mahler's music, without even mentioning Bernstein)

Good to see a mention of Klemperer's 9th, which seems to have somewhat disappeared behind the wayside; I've been particularly impressed by the finale in his reading--for me it comes over as stoic rather than tragic, and very effective I find it too.

Stoic is also the word I have used to describe the famous DLVDE recording with Wunderlich and Ludwig. He finds the balance between detachment and over emotionalism, if I have to choose one or other side of that line, I prefer too much to too little.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 08:26:24 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 08, 2012, 06:53:50 AM
Sounds interesting.... shall go and search for it. Thank you Mike.

I hope you enjoy it, it ought to be available at bargain price. It is paired with the Mahler 10 Adagio.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 08, 2012, 09:24:16 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 08:26:24 AM
I hope you enjoy it, it ought to be available at bargain price. It is paired with the Mahler 10 Adagio.

Mike

Thanks Mike! It seems to be rather rare though... only found a few Amazon MP sellers selling it for a rather high price... I'll keep on looking.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 09:38:20 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 08, 2012, 09:24:16 AM
Thanks Mike! It seems to be rather rare though... only found a few Amazon MP sellers selling it for a rather high price... I'll keep on looking.

It is here in good condition for just over £10. There are two discs in the set.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00004R8N2/ref=sr_1_cc_1_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1326047783&sr=1-1-catcorr&condition=used

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 08, 2012, 10:04:27 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 09:38:20 AM
It is here in good condition for just over £10. There are two discs in the set.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00004R8N2/ref=sr_1_cc_1_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1326047783&sr=1-1-catcorr&condition=used

Mike

Thanks for this Mike - shall add to the amazon wishlist and hopefully will purchase soon! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brunumb on January 09, 2012, 02:49:49 PM
You could try this eBay seller for the Judd Mahler 9 :
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/G-Mahler-Symphony-9-More-/270858269554?pt=B%C3%BCcher_Unterhaltung_Music_CDs&hash=item3f10693372
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 10, 2012, 08:12:30 AM
Quote from: brunumb on January 09, 2012, 02:49:49 PM
You could try this eBay seller for the Judd Mahler 9 :
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/G-Mahler-Symphony-9-More-/270858269554?pt=B%C3%BCcher_Unterhaltung_Music_CDs&hash=item3f10693372

Thank you!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 11, 2012, 01:15:57 PM
My next Mahler cycle has arrived today! :)
Extremely excited to hear the rest of this cycle after Sinopoli's 8th became my favourite recording of the work a while ago.
Next cycle to get: MTT. :)
[asin]B003LQSHBO[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 12, 2012, 01:15:47 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 11, 2012, 01:15:57 PM
My next Mahler cycle has arrived today! :)
Extremely excited to hear the rest of this cycle after Sinopoli's 8th became my favourite recording of the work a while ago.
Next cycle to get: MTT. :)
[asin]B003LQSHBO[/asin]

MTT's cycle has become my favorite cycle, with Bertini very near it. Its' the combination of sound, performance nuance, and overall beauty of the readings that bowl me over.

Enjoy the Sinopoli! I really love what he does with the M6, especially the slower tempo for the "Alma" theme in the 1st movement, that is a moment of absolute sublimity.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 12, 2012, 01:19:32 PM
Quote from: Leo K on January 12, 2012, 01:15:47 PM
MTT's cycle has become my favorite cycle, with Bertini very near it. Its' the combination of sound, performance nuance, and overall beauty of the readings that bowl me over.

Enjoy the Sinopoli! I really love what he does with the M6, especially the slower tempo for the "Alma" theme in the 1st movement, that is a moment of absolute sublimity.
It sounds great! There have been some criticisms of parts of it though, plus the price, which has put me off in the past. But after hearing some of no.2, I am more keen to get this cycle than ever before!
Thank you Leo! That sounds excellent - the Alma theme is possibly my favourite melody of all time, so I particularly look forward to hearing that. I am sure it will be a contrast to my current favourite M6 which is Solti. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2012, 02:44:49 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 12, 2012, 01:19:32 PM
It sounds great! There have been some criticisms of parts of it though, plus the price, which has put me off in the past. But after hearing some of no.2, I am more keen to get this cycle than ever before!
Thank you Leo! That sounds excellent - the Alma theme is possibly my favourite melody of all time, so I particularly look forward to hearing that. I am sure it will be a contrast to my current favourite M6 which is Solti. :)

It's perhaps the cycle most the opposite of MTT... and very highly enjoyable. As has been pointed out: a tremendous 8th, a fabulous 9th (listen to the opening brass: it's like trees are being felled), powerful 6th et al.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 13, 2012, 09:25:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2012, 02:44:49 PM
It's perhaps the cycle most the opposite of MTT... and very highly enjoyable. As has been pointed out: a tremendous 8th, a fabulous 9th (listen to the opening brass: it's like trees are being felled), powerful 6th et al.

Yes - the 8th is the only one I know from Sinopoli's cycle at this moment and I have to say that it is absolutely my favourite M8 that I have ever heard! :)
Thanks for the feedback, Jens.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 06:23:00 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 12, 2012, 09:41:44 AM
Please let me know what this is like, Sarge! I really want this cycle - and shall be asking for it for my birthday probably!

I need to listen again. I'm not sure I trust my initial judgment that, like most MTT Mahler I've heard, he tends to smooth things out, rendering the music too polite with insufficient emotional depth. That's perhaps less important in the Fourth, the lightest, most carefree of the symphonies, but still... It's an undeniably gorgeous, at times breathtaking performance, but it seldom moved me, least of all in the Finale. Part of the problem there is the soprano--not that she doesn't sing it well, she does--I just don't care for the sound of her voice. She certainly doesn't make me forget Donath (Inbal) or Battle (Maazel) or Schäfer (Haitink) or Raskin (Szell) or Bonney (Chailly) or Sunhae Im in the recent Honeck Fourth.

Damn...I think I'm being too harsh. With 32 versions in my collection maybe I'm jaded (ya think?  ;D ) It really is a very good performance (with spectacular sound; I particularly like his sleighbells). The fussy and constant stop and go phrasing that bothers me in his Second is not a problem here; everything seems natural, not mannered. I'm sure you'll be happy with it. And it does have one extraordinary feature which makes me glad I bought it, and to which I'll be returning often: the slowest (I believe) performance of the third movement (Ruhevoll). At almost 26 minutes, it's an example of the magic MTT and San Francisco can accomplish at an almost impossibly slow pace. I love it--even though I wish he had punched home the climax with a bit more power.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2012, 08:28:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 06:23:00 AM
I need to listen again. I'm not sure I trust my initial judgment that, like most MTT Mahler I've heard, he tends to smooth things out, rendering the music too polite with insufficient emotional depth. That's perhaps less important in the Fourth, the lightest, most carefree of the symphonies, but still... It's an undeniably gorgeous, at times breathtaking performance, but it seldom moved me, least of all in the Finale. Part of the problem there is the soprano--not that she doesn't sing it well, she does--I just don't care for the sound of her voice. She certainly doesn't make me forget Donath (Inbal) or Battle (Maazel) or Schäfer (Haitink) or Raskin (Szell) or Bonney (Chailly) or Sunhae Im in the recent Honeck Fourth.

Damn...I think I'm being too harsh. With 32 versions in my collection maybe I'm jaded (ya think?  ;D ) It really is a very good performance (with spectacular sound; I particularly like his sleighbells). The fussy and constant stop and go phrasing that bothers me in his Second is not a problem here; everything seems natural, not mannered. I'm sure you'll be happy with it. And it does have one extraordinary feature which makes me glad I bought it, and to which I'll be returning often: the slowest (I believe) performance of the third movement (Ruhevoll). At almost 26 minutes, it's an example of the magic MTT and San Francisco can accomplish at an almost impossibly slow pace. I love it--even though I wish he had punched home the climax with a bit more power.

Sarge

Thank you for your feedback, Sarge! That slow movement certainly does sound great!
32 recordings of M4 that you own! Very impressive.... Out of interest Sarge, how many complete cycles do you own?

Thank you again for your feedback Sarge!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:04:25 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2012, 08:28:12 AM
Thank you for your feedback, Sarge! That slow movement certainly does sound great!
32 recordings of M4 that you own! Very impressive.... Out of interest Sarge, how many complete cycles do you own?

Fourteen, including the almost complete Levine and Kondrashin:

BERNSTEIN SONY
BERNSTEIN DG
BERNSTEIN DVD
MAAZEL
BERTINI
NEUMANN
SINOPOLI
RATTLE
TENNSTEDT
SVETLANOV
INBAL
BOULEZ
CHAILLY
GIELEN
KONDRASHIN
LEVINE

Total Mahler Symphony CDs:

1 - 29
2 - 29
3 - 19
4 - 32
5 - 32
6 - 28
7 - 23
8 - 18
9 - 29
10 - 12
DLvdE - 18


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2012, 09:43:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:04:25 AM
Fourteen, including the almost complete Levine and Kondrashin:

BERNSTEIN SONY
BERNSTEIN DG
BERNSTEIN DVD
MAAZEL
BERTINI
NEUMANN
SINOPOLI
RATTLE
TENNSTEDT
SVETLANOV
INBAL
BOULEZ
CHAILLY
GIELEN
KONDRASHIN
LEVINE

Total Mahler Symphony CDs:

1 - 29
2 - 29
3 - 19
4 - 32
5 - 32
6 - 28
7 - 23
8 - 18
9 - 29
10 - 12
DLvdE - 18


Sarge

Very impressive Sarge! Slightly surprised you don't own the Solti though. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 10:01:16 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2012, 09:43:30 AM
Very impressive Sarge! Slightly surprised you don't own the Solti though. :)

I have most of it--or rather, the most of a Solti Mahler cycle, including what I think are the best parts of his first Mahler recordings: 2, 5, 6, 7, 8. I have his LSO 1, Concertgebouw 4 and Chicago DLvdE too but have always preferred, from the old days, Horenstein's First, Szell's Fourth and Haitink's Das Lied.  I'm only missing 3 and 9.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2012, 10:16:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 10:01:16 AM
I have most of it--or rather, the most of a Solti Mahler cycle, including what I think are the best parts of his first Mahler recordings: 2, 5, 6, 7, 8. I have his LSO 1, Concertgebouw 4 and Chicago DLvdE too but have always preferred, from the old days, Horenstein's First, Szell's Fourth and Haitink's Das Lied.  I'm only missing 3 and 9.

If Number Nine is concerned: if available, try to get his first one, with the London SO. Less slick recording, but much more tension, as far as I'm concerned. Especially the first movement is thrilling.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2012, 10:31:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 10:01:16 AM
I have most of it--or rather, the most of a Solti Mahler cycle, including what I think are the best parts of his first Mahler recordings: 2, 5, 6, 7, 8. I have his LSO 1, Concertgebouw 4 and Chicago DLvdE too but have always preferred, from the old days, Horenstein's First, Szell's Fourth and Haitink's Das Lied.  I'm only missing 3 and 9.

Sarge

Solti's 6th is one of my favourite readings of the work, so I am glad you have that. :) The CSO M1 is also excellent, I do not know the LSO 1 at this moment though so cannot compare...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 11:21:50 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2012, 10:31:28 AM
Solti's 6th is one of my favourite readings of the work, so I am glad you have that. :)

I wouldn't be without it. Solti is my desert island pick. I've owned it for 40 years. Szell, Zander, Chailly, Sinopoli, Eschenbach, Bernstein (DG), Karajan (for the gorgeous Andante) I also rate highly.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 11:25:30 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2012, 10:16:33 AM
If Number Nine is concerned: if available, try to get his first one, with the London SO.

Yes, that is the one I would be interested in. I wasn't even aware it had ever been released on CD.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 14, 2012, 11:37:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:04:25 AM
Fourteen, including the almost complete Levine and Kondrashin:

BERNSTEIN SONY
BERNSTEIN DG
BERNSTEIN DVD
MAAZEL
BERTINI
NEUMANN
SINOPOLI
RATTLE
TENNSTEDT
SVETLANOV
INBAL
BOULEZ
CHAILLY
GIELEN
KONDRASHIN
LEVINE

Total Mahler Symphony CDs:

1 - 29
2 - 29
3 - 19
4 - 32
5 - 32
6 - 28
7 - 23
8 - 18
9 - 29
10 - 12
DLvdE - 18


Sarge

Man - really slack'en on #3 - they might suspend your Mahler membership!  :o :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 11:50:24 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 14, 2012, 11:37:06 AM
Man - really slack'en on #3 - they might suspend your Mahler membership!  :o :P

The explanation: 1) for years it was the one Mahler symphony I didn't get in its entirety. My least favorite, in other words. And 2) my first recording, Horenstein, satisfied so completely (the parts I did get) I seldom looked for alternatives...not like the other symphonies anyway.

And today: I would be quite happy just owning Horenstein, Levine and the first Haitink.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 14, 2012, 11:54:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:04:25 AM
Total Mahler Symphony CDs:

1 - 29
2 - 29
3 - 19
4 - 32
5 - 32
6 - 28
7 - 23
8 - 18
9 - 29
10 - 12
DLvdE - 18


Sarge

Pfew... Relatively speaking, i am normal  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 14, 2012, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 11:50:24 AM
The explanation: 1) for years it was the one Mahler symphony I didn't get in its entirety. My least favorite, in other words. And 2) my first recording, Horenstein, satisfied so completely (the parts I did get) I seldom looked for alternatives...not like the other symphonies anyway.

And today: I would be quite happy just owning Horenstein, Levine and the first Haitink.

Sarge
I know I was teasing, but my most recent Mahler 3 was Horenstein (a few years ago), and I haven't gotten another #3 since. So I guess you are on to something!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2012, 11:59:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 11:25:30 AM
Yes, that is the one I would be interested in. I wasn't even aware it had ever been released on CD.

Bought my copy around 1990, I think.

One issue left at Amazon (probably a CD-R from ArkivMusic):

(http://i42.tinypic.com/ety64w.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-Wagner-Siegfried-Idyll/dp/B00000E4L8/

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2012, 12:07:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 11:50:24 AM
The explanation: 1) for years it was the one Mahler symphony I didn't get in its entirety. My least favorite, in other words. And 2) my first recording, Horenstein, satisfied so completely (the parts I did get) I seldom looked for alternatives...not like the other symphonies anyway.

And today: I would be quite happy just owning Horenstein, Levine and the first Haitink.

Makes me curious about Levine, because I share a lot of your opinions 'bout and personal relationship with the third. Haitink and Horenstein are my faves, too.
Regarding Haitink: his live reading (Concertgebouw Christmas Matinee boxset) is even better than the studio recording IMO. I especially like his approach of the finale. No nonsense lyricism, and that proofs to be breathtaking. The Berlin live DVD is another good example of that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on January 14, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 14, 2012, 11:59:38 AM
Bought my copy around 1990, I think.

One issue left at Amazon (probably a CD-R from ArkivMusic):

(http://i42.tinypic.com/ety64w.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-Wagner-Siegfried-Idyll/dp/B00000E4L8/

No need for that. If anyone really needs it it can be had for cheaper:

http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Symphonie-Nr-Georg-Solti/dp/B00008LDN6
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 01:37:20 PM
Quote from: Drasko on January 14, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
No need for that. If anyone really needs it it can be had for cheaper:

http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Symphonie-Nr-Georg-Solti/dp/B00008LDN6

Cool...thanks, Drasko.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 01:40:05 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 14, 2012, 11:54:24 AM
Relatively speaking, i am normal  ;D

You are...and be grateful  :D  I should be called madaboutmahler...with the emphasis on mad...but someone else already owns that name  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 14, 2012, 01:41:07 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 01:40:05 PM
You are...and be grateful  :D  I should be called madaboutmahler...with the emphasis on mad...but someone else already owns that name  ;D

Sarge

Sorry Sarge! ;) You could be 'alsomadaboutmahler' ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2012, 01:55:17 PM
Quote from: Drasko on January 14, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
No need for that. If anyone really needs it it can be had for cheaper:

http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Symphonie-Nr-Georg-Solti/dp/B00008LDN6

Thumbs up! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 14, 2012, 03:48:25 PM
Solti's 9th is one of the best out there.
For a while, I thought it might come out on top as my favorite, beating Karajan live. But after a few listens... despite being such an intense recording and actually being able to hear the bass, the performers don't play together in sync well enough. They aren't "tight" enough. In comparison, Karajan live is like a well-designed machine with everything running in sync at optimum levels with no flaws at all.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brunumb on January 14, 2012, 10:19:30 PM
Quote from: Drasko on January 14, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
No need for that. If anyone really needs it it can be had for cheaper:

http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Symphonie-Nr-Georg-Solti/dp/B00008LDN6

Or here :
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SOLTI-GEORG-LSO-SINFONIE-9-CD-ALBUM-DECCA-NEU-/360410987146?pt=B%C3%BCcher_Unterhaltung_Music_CDs&hash=item53ea2b3a8a
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 15, 2012, 04:15:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:04:25 AM

Total Mahler Symphony CDs:

1 - 29
2 - 29
3 - 19
4 - 32
5 - 32
6 - 28
7 - 23
8 - 18
9 - 29
10 - 12
DLvdE - 18


Sarge

amateur.


:-)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2012, 06:01:09 AM
I own a total of 16 Mahler recordings and 7 of them are Boulez recordings, how's that for amateur?   ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 15, 2012, 06:58:33 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2012, 06:01:09 AM
I own a total of 16 Mahler recordings and 7 of them are Boulez recordings, how's that for amateur?   ;D

:o

I probably own a total of just over 80 at the moment... my collection is still growing though!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 15, 2012, 08:23:13 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2012, 06:01:09 AM
I own a total of 16 Mahler recordings and 7 of them are Boulez recordings, how's that for amateur?   ;D

No, that's just normal.  The epitaph "amateur" applies among complete nutters, when the're less completely nutty than the main nut.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2012, 08:27:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 15, 2012, 08:23:13 AM
No, that's just normal.  The epitaph "amateur" applies among complete nutters, when the're less completely nutty than the main nut.  ;)

True...I still retain a sliver of sanity but there is absolutely no hope for Laurson. He is a professional nutjob ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2012, 08:32:51 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 15, 2012, 06:58:33 AM
I probably own a total of just over 80 at the moment...

Which is absolutely astonishing for someone your age. I had zero Mahler recordings at the same age. At age 21 I had zero Mahler recordings  ;D  I was 22 and married before I could boast of owning four (Horenstein 1 & 3, Haitink 2, Solti 6).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on January 15, 2012, 08:34:18 AM
You don't mean that Mrs Rock drove you to . . . Mahler?! ; )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2012, 08:41:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2012, 08:32:51 AM
Which is absolutely astonishing for someone your age. I had zero Mahler recordings at the same age. At age 21 I had zero Mahler recordings  ;D  I was 22 and married before I could boast of owning four (Horenstein 1 & 3, Haitink 2, Solti 6).

Sarge


Well, I've got you beat on that, my first Mahler recording I owned was in high school. My brother rushed home one day going bonkers about an awesome trombone solo he just heard. That being from Mahler's 3rd, Bernstein's DG recording with NYPhil. That was about the time he began alternating between Metallica and Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2012, 08:43:45 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 15, 2012, 08:34:18 AM
You don't mean that Mrs Rock drove you to . . . Mahler?! ; )

Well, it was the first Mrs. Rock, not the second and current. And yes, she drove me to many things...including divorce  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2012, 08:49:39 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2012, 08:41:14 AM

Well, I've got you beat on that, my first Mahler recording I owned was in high school. My brother rushed home one day going bonkers about an awesome trombone solo he just heard. That being from Mahler's 3rd, Bernstein's DG recording with NYPhil. That was about the time he began alternating between Metallica and Mahler.

Lucky you. I only made 10 dollars a week in my junior and senior years of high school. I could afford the occasional budget issue (like Vox and Vanguard Everymans) but the major Mahler recordings were way out of my financial reach. I had to make do with the pitiful selection at the Barberton (Ohio) public library.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2012, 08:53:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2012, 08:43:45 AM
Well, it was the first Mrs. Rock, not the second and current. And yes, she drove me to many things...including divorce  ;D

Sarge


I feel you, the first Mrs. Moeller could barely make it to intermission during a Dallas S.O. concert...I should have read the signs then, could have saved a few years.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 15, 2012, 10:20:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2012, 08:32:51 AM
Which is absolutely astonishing for someone your age. I had zero Mahler recordings at the same age. At age 21 I had zero Mahler recordings  ;D  I was 22 and married before I could boast of owning four (Horenstein 1 & 3, Haitink 2, Solti 6).

Sarge

Well, thank you Sarge!

Very good choices you made for your first four! I think my first few were Chailly 5, Sinopoli 8 and then the Solti and Rattle sets. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 15, 2012, 10:37:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:04:25 AM
Total Mahler Symphony CDs:

1 - 29
2 - 29
3 - 19
4 - 32
5 - 32
6 - 28
7 - 23
8 - 18
9 - 29
10 - 12
DLvdE - 18

Quote from: jlaurson on January 15, 2012, 04:15:07 AM
amateur.

:-)

;D

(Nutjob :P.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 15, 2012, 10:41:20 AM
By the way - just about to start now:

http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/play/2943 (http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/play/2943)

Mahler 5
National Youth Orchestra of Germany/Stenz

A free live concert on the BPO's Digital Concert Hall.

edit: Wonder what this youth orchestra will be like... especially in such a challenging piece! You can hear the principal trumpeter practising his solo offstage at this very moment! Sounds good! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 15, 2012, 04:48:07 PM
Someone should write more Mahler symphonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 03:23:29 AM
Quote from: Greg on January 15, 2012, 04:48:07 PM
Someone should write more Mahler symphonies.

Why, composers have:

DSCH-4th. Berio. Rott (a prequel, actually)... others will think of more, ottotheads.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on January 16, 2012, 04:12:14 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 03:23:29 AM
Why, composers have:

Berio.

Are you referring to the Sinfonia?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 04:23:05 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 16, 2012, 04:12:14 AM
Are you referring to the Sinfonia?

Yep. A stretch perhaps, but part of my "Spheres of Mahler - Afterglow" universe.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 16, 2012, 04:23:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 03:23:29 AM
Why, composers have:

DSCH-4th. Berio. Rott (a prequel, actually)... others will think of more, ottotheads.
Except that the prequel is the only one that actually sounds somewhat like him... (reusing his material doesn't count)
Maybe by 2050?...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on January 16, 2012, 04:27:45 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 04:23:05 AM
Yep. A stretch perhaps, but part of my "Spheres of Mahler - Afterglow" universe.

Thanks. I'm not questioning your assertion, as the piece is new to me, but since I happen to be in a "Mahler mood" today I just wanted to make sure that I listen to the right work. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 01:05:11 PM
Oh boy... "amateur" my rear! Looks like you got me. I know I'm missing a few records (with my collection split between continents and some collections not considered), but not many and probably not enough to meaningfully tilt the balance. :-)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2012, 09:04:25 AM

Total Mahler Symphony CDs:

1 - 29 | 28
2 - 29 | 30
3 - 19 | 21
4 - 32 | 30
5 - 32 | 33
6 - 28 | 36
7 - 23 | 24
8 - 18 | 21
9 - 29 | 29
10 - 12 | 14
DLvdE - 18 | 13


Sarge

DKL:  Rattle I, Chailly / DSO, Haitink / RCO, MTT



No.1:

Abbado / BPh
Bernstein / NYPhil
Bernstein / RCO DG
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
Eschenbach / DSO
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / CSO
Haitink / RCO Christmas
Jansons / BRSO
Jansons / RCO
Judd / Florida
Kondrashin / Leningrad
Kondrashin / NDRSO
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Kubelik / BRSO DG
MTT / SFSO
Ormandy
Rattle I
Sinopoli
Solti / CSO
Suitner
Svetlanov
Walter / Columbia
Zander / Philharmonia
Zinman / Tonhalle
Honeck / Pittsburgh
Hermus
Ancerl 1 / CzPO
Levine/LSO
No.2:

Abbado / CSO
Abbado / Lucerne
Bernstein / NYPhil
Bernstein / NYPhil DG
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
Eschenbach / Philly
Fischer / Budapest
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / CSO
Jarvi, P / FRSO
Kaplan I
Kaplan II
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Kubelik / BRSO DG
Mehta / WPh
MTT / SFSO
Nott
Ozawa / SK
Rattle / Berlin
Rattle I
Sinopoli
Solti / CSO
Stenz
Svetlanov
Tennstedt / LPO
Walter / NYPhil
Zinman / Tonhalle
Suitner
No.3:

Abbado / Berlin
Bernstein / NYPhil
Bernstein / NYPhil DG
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / CSO
Haitink / RCO
Haitink / RCO Christmas
Horenstein
Kondrashin / Leningrad
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Kubelik / BRSO DG
Mitrop. / NYPh
MTT / SFSO
Rattle I
Salonnen / LAPhil
Svetlanov
Zander / Philharmonia
Zinman / Tonhalle
Roegner
+Levine / CSO
No.4:

Abbado / Berlin
Bernstein / NYPhil
Bernstein / RCO
Bernstein / Vienna DVD
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
Fischer / Budapest
Gatti
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / RCO Christmas
Haitink / RCO Live
Inbal
Kletzki
Kondrashin / Leningrad
Kubelik / BRSO DG
Maazel
MTT / SFSO
Rattle I
Reiner
Salonnen / LAPhil
Sinopoli
Sinopoli / Dresden
Stenz
Svetlanov
Szell
Walter / NYPhil
Zander / Philharmonia
Zinman / Tonhalle
Levine / CSO
Macal
Haitink / BPh
No.5:

Abbado / Berlin
Barbirolli
Barshai / JDPhil
Bernstein / NYPhil
Bernstein / Vienna
Bernstein / Vienna DVD
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
Dudamel / VSBO
Gatti
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / RCO Christmas
Jansons / BRSO
Jansons / RCO
Kondrashin / Leningrad
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Kubelik / BRSO DG
Levi
MTT / SFSO
Oramo / Birmingham
Rattle I
Rogg (organ)
Sarastre / FnRSO
Scherchen / WPh
Sinopoli
Solti / Tonhalle
Stenz
Svetlanov
van Zweden
Walter / NYPhil
Zander / Philharmonia
Zinman / Tonhalle
Haitink / BPh
Neumann / Leipzig
Levine / Philly
No.6:

Abbado / Berlin
Barbirolli
Bernstein / NYPhil
Bernstein / Vienna
Bernstein / Vienna DVD
Bongartz
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
Eschenbach / Philly
Fischer / Budapest
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / CSO Live
Herbig
Jansons / LSO
Jansons / RCO
Karajan
Kondrashin / Leningrad
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Kubelik / BRSO DG
Mackerras
Mitrop. / WDR
MTT / SFSO
Neumann I
Pappano
Rattle I
Salonen / Phila
Sarastre / Oslo
Sinopoli
Solti / CSO
Svetlanov
Szell
Zander / Philharmonia
Zenker/Trenkner (Piano Duo)
Zinman / Tonhalle
Darlington / Duisburg
+
Levine / LSO
No.7:

Abbado / Berlin
Abbado / CSO
Barenboim
Bernstein / NYPhil
Bernstein / NYPhil DG
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / RCO Christmas
Inbal
Jansons / BRSO
Jansons / Oslo
Kondrashin / Leningrad
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Kubelik / BRSO DG
MTT / SFSO
Rattle I
Schwarz
Sinopoli
Svetlanov
Zenker/Trenkner (Piano Duo)
Zinman / Tonhalle
MTT / London
Neumann / Leipzig
+
Levine CSO
No.8:

Abbado / BPh
Bernstein / LSO
Bernstein / Vienna
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
DeBilly
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / RCO
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Kubelik / BRSO DG
Mitrop. / S'burg
MTT / SFSO
Nagano
Ozawa / Tanglewood
Rattle I
Sinopoli
Solti / CSO
Svetlanov
Tennstedt / LPO
Wit
DLvdE:

Bernstein / Vienna
Boulez
Gielen / SWR
Herreweghe (Ch.V)
Klemperer
Kletzki
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Matt / EChS (Ch.V.)
MTT / SFSO
Nagano
Oue
Rattle I
Walter / NYPhil
No.9:

[Ozawa / SK]
Abbado / Berlin
Barenboim
Bernstein / BPh
Bernstein / NYPhil
Bernstein / RCO
Boulez
Chailly / RCO
Gergiev
Gielen / SWR
Haitink / RCO Christmas
Karajan / BPh I
Karajan / BPh II
Kondrashin / Leningrad
Kubelik / BRSO audite
Kubelik / BRSO DG
MTT / SFSO
Norrington
Nott
Rattle / Berlin
Rattle I
Salonen / Phila
Sarastre / WDR
Sinopoli
Sinopoli / Dresden
Svetlanov
Walter / Columbia
Zander / Philharmonia
Sanderling I
Sanderling II
Sanderling III
Ancerl 9
+
Levine / Philly
No.10:

[Litton]
[Slatkin]
Levine / Philly
Barshai / JDPhil
Chailly / RIAS
Gielen / SWR
Inbal
Lopez Cobos
Oslon
Rattle I
Rattle II
Sanderling
Harding
Noseda



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2012, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 01:05:11 PM
Oh boy... "amateur" my rear! Looks like you got me. I know I'm missing a few records (with my collection split between continents and some collections not considered), but not many and probably not enough to meaningfully tilt the balance. :-)
No Bertini?!?! Mahlerite indeed!  :'(  :o :P  Seriously, a wonderful DLvdE.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2012, 01:17:36 PM
No Bertini?!?! Mahlerite indeed!  :'(  :o :P  Seriously, a wonderful DLvdE.

I have three Bertinis... incl. 6th. But not, I think, the DLvdE.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 16, 2012, 01:22:41 PM
and I have more 2nds than either of them... I am not as normal as I hoped I was....  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2012, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 01:21:04 PM
I have three Bertinis... incl. 6th. But not, I think, the DLvdE.
It's a corker. Heppner is fantastic. The 8th is also very good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2012, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 16, 2012, 01:22:41 PM
and I have more 2nds than either of them... I am not as normal as I hoped I was....  ;D
:o   :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2012, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 01:05:11 PM
Oh boy... "amateur" my rear! Looks like you got me. I know I'm missing a few records (with my collection split between continents and some collections not considered), but not many and probably not enough to meaningfully tilt the balance. :-)

DKL:  Rattle I, Chailly / DSO, Haitink / RCO

If my calculations are correct, you have 273 symphonies and I have 269. So you are slightly ahead of me.

But I can make up the difference if we add our DKLs. I have seven to your three:


BOULEZ   LSO LEAR/SÖDERSTRÖM/HOFFMAN/BURROWS
RATTLE   CBSO DOESE/HODGSON/TEAR
SINOPOLI   PHILHARMONIA STUDER/MEIER/GOLDBERG/ALLEN
CHAILLY   DSO BERLIN DUNN/FASSBAENDER/HOLLWEG/SCHMIDT
HAITINK   CONCERTGEBOUW HARPER/FORRESTER/PROCTER/HOLLWEG
MORRIS   NEW PHILHARMONIA REYNOLDS/ZYLIS-GARA/KAPOSY
THOMAS   SAN FRANCISCO DEYOUNG/SHOGUSH/MOSER/LEIFERKUS

That makes us even. How about a tie-breaker? How many complete Wunderhorns do you have? I have five:

PROHASKA SO VIENNA FESTIVAL FORRESTER/REHFUSS
BERNSTEIN CONCERTGEBOUW POPP/SCHMIDT
SZELL LSO  SCHWARZKOPF/FISCHER-DIESKAU
CHAILLY CONCERTGEBOUW BONNEY/GOERNE
BOULEZ CLEVELAND KOZENA/GERHAHER


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2012, 01:36:51 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 16, 2012, 01:22:41 PM
and I have more 2nds than either of them... I am not as normal as I hoped I was....  ;D

Papy! You are deranged! Welcome to the club  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 01:52:33 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2012, 01:30:45 PM
If my calculations are correct, you have 273 symphonies and I have 269. So you are slightly ahead of me.

But I can make up the difference if we add our DKLs. I have seven to your three:


BOULEZ   LSO LEAR/SÖDERSTRÖM/HOFFMAN/BURROWS
RATTLE   CBSO DOESE/HODGSON/TEAR
SINOPOLI   PHILHARMONIA STUDER/MEIER/GOLDBERG/ALLEN
CHAILLY   DSO BERLIN DUNN/FASSBAENDER/HOLLWEG/SCHMIDT
HAITINK   CONCERTGEBOUW HARPER/FORRESTER/PROCTER/HOLLWEG
MORRIS   NEW PHILHARMONIA REYNOLDS/ZYLIS-GARA/KAPOSY
THOMAS   SAN FRANCISCO DEYOUNG/SHOGUSH/MOSER/LEIFERKUS

That makes us even. How about a tie-breaker? How many complete Wunderhorns do you have? I have five:

PROHASKA SO VIENNA FESTIVAL FORRESTER/REHFUSS
BERNSTEIN CONCERTGEBOUW POPP/SCHMIDT
SZELL LSO  SCHWARZKOPF/FISCHER-DIESKAU
CHAILLY CONCERTGEBOUW BONNEY/GOERNE
BOULEZ CLEVELAND KOZENA/GERHAHER


Sarge

I have certainly:

Hampson II
Stenz
Vignoles (not orchestral)
Damrau / Lademann (not orchestral)
Szell
Haitink

I might well have Boulez and Herreweghe sent to me already, but wouldn't know.

Also just found Levine/5, Darlington/6, MTT-London/7, Neumann-Leipzig/7, Neumann-Leipzig/5, Ancerl/9, 3 (!) different Sanderling/9, Honeck/1, Hermus/1, Suitner/2, Roegner/3, Haitink-BPh/4, Haitink-BPh/5, Macal/4, Levine/4, MTT/DKL... (sorry)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 16, 2012, 01:55:36 PM
nutters....  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on January 17, 2012, 04:33:40 PM
I've sold off my cd collection so I'm officially cured of Mahleria... time to buy some more Mahler recordings! ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:38:44 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 16, 2012, 01:55:36 PM
nutters....  ;D

Hey, you have to tell us your # of recordings for the Resurrection!

I'm severely deformed, methinks, having a tally of two for No 1 (Kubelik/Audite and the Naxos - thought I had Bernstein/DG around here somewhere though!), one of No 2 (Fischer/Budapest), and none of the others at all  ??? ??? still need to grab that first recording of No 3 at least, since I love the piece.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 17, 2012, 10:37:18 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:38:44 PM
Hey, you have to tell us your # of recordings for the Resurrection!

That looks like this :

Das Klagende Lied         1   
Symphony No. 1             16
Symphony No. 2             37
Symphony No. 3             12
Symphony No. 4             19
Symphony No. 5             17
Symphony No. 6             23
Symphony No. 7             14
Symphony No. 8             10
Das Lied von der Erde     7
Symphony No. 9             17
Symphony No. 10           15

total                                188

Other                              25 (other full/partial Lieder, Piano Qt, Totenfeier...)



Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2012, 04:38:44 PM
I'm severely deformed, methinks, having a tally of two for No 1 (Kubelik/Audite and the Naxos - thought I had Bernstein/DG around here somewhere though!), one of No 2 (Fischer/Budapest), and none of the others at all  ??? ??? still need to grab that first recording of No 3 at least, since I love the piece.

there you go :

[asin]B000E8N7QW[/asin]


Sorted.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 18, 2012, 08:32:02 AM
Wonderful to witness this competition! :D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: brunumb on January 17, 2012, 04:18:07 PM
I think my Mahlerian OCD may top a few here.
Not counting CDs of song cycles, my collection of the symphonic works consists of :
Das Klagende Lied            5
Symphony No. 1             33
Symphony No. 2             50
Symphony No. 3             41
Symphony No. 4             37
Symphony No. 5             37
Symphony No. 6             37
Symphony No. 7             23
Symphony No. 8             25
Das Lied von der Erde     40
Symphony No. 9             33
Symphony No. 10           19
   
TOTAL                       380    :o

And there's more in the mail.
OMG.  Somebody stop me !!!   :-[

And we have a winner! The men in white coats will be arriving shortly. Congratulations  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 18, 2012, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 01:19:01 PM
And we have a winner! The men in white coats will be arriving shortly. Congratulations  8)

Sarge

One Mahler a day doesn't keep the doctor away then....   ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 18, 2012, 01:42:00 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 01:19:01 PM
And we have a winner! The men in white coats will be arriving shortly. Congratulations  8)

Sarge

My warmest congratulations! You are a true Mahlerian! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on January 18, 2012, 08:34:42 PM
i just want to thank y'all for the comforting knowledge that I actually have a small Mahler collection.  I used to think that (including both those I have as part of full cycles ( 8 ) and as individual performances)  having approximately 25 recordings of M2 and M9 might be a little overboard, but obviously I'm just a novice.  None of the other symphonies and song cycles top twenty--M8 comes closest.   

Wait--that's 27 M2s and 25 M9s. I forget to add in the two DVD performance I recently acquired :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 18, 2012, 10:21:51 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 18, 2012, 08:34:42 PM
i just want to thank y'all for the comforting knowledge that I actually have a small Mahler collection.  I used to think that (including both those I have as part of full cycles ( 8 ) and as individual performances)  having approximately 25 recordings of M2 and M9 might be a little overboard, but obviously I'm just a novice.  None of the other symphonies and song cycles top twenty--M8 comes closest.   

Wait--that's 27 M2s and 25 M9s. I forget to add in the two DVD performance I recently acquired :)

Oh, we're counting DVDs as well?

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 18, 2012, 08:32:02 AM
Wonderful to witness this competition! :D

Isn't it!?  :)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1-TqS83K6NE/TxfEfuEYmxI/AAAAAAAAByI/MFu1sOLzIy8/s400/mahlercollection.PNG)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2012, 02:11:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 18, 2012, 10:21:51 PM
Oh, we're counting DVDs as well?

I didn't include my DVDs either. Well, this changes everything   :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on January 20, 2012, 02:03:27 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 03:23:29 AM
Why, composers have:

DSCH-4th. Berio. Rott (a prequel, actually)... others will think of more, ottotheads.

Bits of Schnittke
...
Liszt's Heroide Funebre
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on January 20, 2012, 04:48:59 AM
If we're done counting cds/lps/wax cylinders who here also likes the live Klemperer Mahler 2nd? :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 20, 2012, 05:03:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2012, 04:48:59 AM
If we're done counting cds/lps/wax cylinders who here also likes the live Klemperer Mahler 2nd? :)

I almost ordered that the other day but the reviews were confusing--all over the map with no consensus: either its much better than the studio recording or its vastly inferior with sloppy execution compared to the studio or it doesn't matter which you own because the performances are so similiar.  ???

The only thing everyone seems to agree on is that Janet Baker is wonderful.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on January 20, 2012, 09:38:33 AM
I think that it's slightly more emotional than the studio.  I wouldn't throw either one in the dust bin, but I do like it better than the studio.  And yes Janet Baker as always is stunning! :)

Those amazonians always have to go over the top with their reviews! >:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2012, 10:07:13 AM
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2012, 09:38:33 AM
Those amazonians always have to go over the top with their reviews! >:D

GO BUY THIS NOW! NOW!!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 21, 2012, 01:54:02 PM
Heard a little of Jansons' Mahler today and was very impressed... so wonderful whether to get these:
[asin]B00005UVXB[/asin]
[asin]B002UO73YU[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 04:25:31 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 21, 2012, 01:54:02 PM
Heard a little of Jansons' Mahler today and was very impressed... so wonderful [wondering?] whether to get these:

Which of Jansons' Mahler did you hear that you found impressive/wonderful?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 22, 2012, 04:45:08 AM
And no one is counting Das Klagende Lied?...  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 22, 2012, 04:56:32 AM
Quote from: Greg on January 22, 2012, 04:45:08 AM
And no one is counting Das Klagende Lied?...  ::)


We did count it:


Quote from: jlaurson on January 16, 2012, 01:05:11 PM
Oh boy... "amateur" my rear! Looks like you got me. I know I'm missing a few records (with my collection split between continents and some collections not considered), but not many and probably not enough to meaningfully tilt the balance. :-)

DKL:  Rattle I, Chailly / DSO, Haitink / RCO, MTT

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2012, 01:30:45 PM
If my calculations are correct, you have 273 symphonies and I have 269. So you are slightly ahead of me.

But I can make up the difference if we add our DKLs. I have seven to your three...

Quote from: Papy Oli on January 17, 2012, 10:37:18 PM
That looks like this :

Das Klagende Lied         1


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 22, 2012, 05:07:27 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 04:25:31 AM
Which of Jansons' Mahler did you hear that you found impressive/wonderful?

Thanks for correcting me!
It was the funeral march from his recording of no.1 with the Oslo Philharmonic. To my delight, it was what our 'General Musicianship class' teacher at the Academy decided to spend the lesson studying. :D The performance sounded so great, I enjoyed it so much that I just had to ask the teacher who the performers were! Sounded excellently recorded as well!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 05:29:26 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 22, 2012, 05:07:27 AM
Thanks for correcting me!
It was the funeral march from his recording of no.1 with the Oslo Philharmonic. To my delight, it was what our 'General Musicianship class' teacher at the Academy decided to spend the lesson studying. :D The performance sounded so great, I enjoyed it so much that I just had to ask the teacher who the performers were! Sounded excellently recorded as well!

I must have every Jansons-Mahler recording there is, official and unofficial... but I've not yet heard the Simax recordings.
Perhaps early Jansons with an excited Oslo orchestra makes for good Mahler; I've found in every other instance, live or recorded, that Mahler and Jansons are not really an ideal match. Too much micromanaging going on... with impressive, perfectly bland results.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 22, 2012, 05:39:24 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 05:29:26 AM
I must have every Jansons-Mahler recording there is, official and unofficial... but I've not yet heard the Simax recordings.
Perhaps early Jansons with an excited Oslo orchestra makes for good Mahler; I've found in every other instance, live or recorded, that Mahler and Jansons are not really an ideal match. Too much micromanaging going on... with impressive, perfectly bland results.

Thank you for the feedback, Jens. What I heard certainly did not sound bland, it sounded so detailed, perfectly balanced, exciting etc. I have not heard any of Jansons' recent Mahler recordings with the RCO, but could completely understand your suggestion that earlier Jansons could be better.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 05:53:37 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 22, 2012, 05:29:26 AM
I must have every Jansons-Mahler recording there is, official and unofficial... but I've not yet heard the Simax recordings.
Perhaps early Jansons with an excited Oslo orchestra makes for good Mahler; I've found in every other instance, live or recorded, that Mahler and Jansons are not really an ideal match. Too much micromanaging going on... with impressive, perfectly bland results.

I must retract the "every other instance" remark: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/ionarts-at-large-jansons-mahler-six.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/ionarts-at-large-jansons-mahler-six.html)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 22, 2012, 06:00:27 AM
About Jansons' Mahler No.1, I particularly like the 2nd movement Kräftig Bewegt,Doch Nicht Zu Schnell: incredibly enjoyable and passionate, very beautiful, perfect rythm, great brilliance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 22, 2012, 07:27:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 22, 2012, 04:56:32 AM

We did count it:



Sarge
Oh, ok, I missed that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 22, 2012, 08:10:31 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 22, 2012, 06:00:27 AM
About Jansons' Mahler No.1, I particularly like the 2nd movement Kräftig Bewegt,Doch Nicht Zu Schnell: incredibly enjoyable and passionate, very beautiful, perfect rythm, great brilliance.

Thank you for the feedback, Ilaria. I love that movement! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on January 22, 2012, 08:56:55 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 22, 2012, 05:39:24 AM
Thank you for the feedback, Jens. What I heard certainly did not sound bland, it sounded so detailed, perfectly balanced, exciting etc. I have not heard any of Jansons' recent Mahler recordings with the RCO, but could completely understand your suggestion that earlier Jansons could be better.

I have the Jansons/RCO M1 and found it very unimpressive.   It's probably been about three years at least since I've played it, which should give you an idea of how little I like it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on February 06, 2012, 05:15:50 AM
It has a cover now.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kugC%2BAulL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005SJIP1E/?tag=goodmusicguideco-21
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 05:18:21 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 06, 2012, 05:15:50 AM
It has a cover now.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kugC%2BAulL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005SJIP1E/?tag=goodmusicguideco-21

::)

How many times is Sony going to release this set? I mean they're just so ridiculous.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on February 06, 2012, 05:19:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 05:18:21 AM
::)

How many times is Sony going to release this set? I mean they're just so ridiculous.

As long as there are people to buy it, would be my guess.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 05:37:19 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 06, 2012, 05:19:55 AM
As long as there are people to buy it, would be my guess.

Why don't they just reissue the older box set? Why do they feel the insistent need to keep re-doing the box and putting it out? I mean this just shows the company doesn't have a clue as to what to do or how to market classical music. These box sets they've been releasing lately are just cheap and I don't understand why they can't put some effort into their liner notes? Okay, rant over...:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 06, 2012, 05:39:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 05:18:21 AM
::)

How many times is Sony going to release this set? I mean they're just so ridiculous.
Until they get it right! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 05:44:44 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 06, 2012, 05:39:50 AM
Until they get it right! :)

It seems like each set keeps getting cheaper and cheaper looking. This is my favorite incarnation of the Bernstein Mahler set:

[asin]B0000589BP[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 06, 2012, 07:07:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 05:18:21 AM
::)

How many times is Sony going to release this set? I mean they're just so ridiculous.

Quote from: Opus106 on February 06, 2012, 05:19:55 AM
As long as there are people to buy it, would be my guess.

Correct answer... and in a way answering the others...
It's a good sign when a set like that is never out of print and goes through several incarnations.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 05:37:19 AM
Why don't they just reissue the older box set? Why do they feel the insistent need to keep re-doing the box and putting it out? I mean this just shows the company doesn't have a clue as to what to do or how to market classical music. These box sets they've been releasing lately are just cheap and I don't understand why they can't put some effort into their liner notes? Okay, rant over...:D

Why? Because re-issuing an 'old' box set (once it is sold out) is no less, if anything: more, cumbersome than producing a new one. Once a set sells out, they might just as well put a new one on the market, rather than try re-creating the old one. Then there's the issue of regional editions; although they are multi-nationals, the regional offices of the big record companies often do their own thing. (And sometimes don't have an idea what another branch is doing.) Decca-Italy or Decca-Korea, for example, are quite independent. Probably not that different with Sony-RCA-BMG-DHM.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 06, 2012, 05:39:50 AM
Until they get it right! :)

They've gotten it 'right' with the re-mastered edition: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-1.html)
Terrific edition, from A-Z.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 05:44:44 AM
It seems like each set keeps getting cheaper and cheaper looking. This is my favorite incarnation of the Bernstein Mahler set:

See above: the re-mastered edition with interview excerpts was quite lovely and much nicer than the original CD incarnation.
Title: Dudamel in Mahler 7 and 9
Post by: bhodges on February 06, 2012, 01:32:44 PM
Just heard from a friend in Los Angeles who was in the audience for Gustavo Dudamel in Mahler 7 and 9 - the former with the Simón Bolívar Symphony Orchestra of Venezuela and the latter with the Los Angeles Philharmonic. In his words: "An amazing cycle with a great, great conductor...the 9th Friday night was the greatest one I have ever heard...live or recorded. I sat right in back of the tympani, virtually in the orchestra, completely immersed in the conductor and the music. It was transformative..."

Here's Mark Swed's beautiful review:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2012/02/music-review-gustavo-dudamel-conducts-mahlers-seventh-and-ninth.html

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 06, 2012, 01:36:59 PM
The composer (and trombonist) Karim Elmahmoudi was also in the audience. I don't think he'll mind my relaying what he wrote to me yesterday:


"Dudamel/Mahler 8 was simply stunning. I wept being so overcome by the beauty and the magic of the event. I thought the performance was revelatory in that I tend to not be the biggest fan of Mahler's 8 finding it a bit long and dragging in parts but this performance really emphasized the beauty and transcendence in a way I hadn't really felt before with this work. Beautiful, mature interpretation by Dudamel and I believe they recorded it because there was a decca-tree above him. Since we sat on the front row, obviously there were balance issues – the 100 plus children's chorus was hard to hear because they were overwhelmed from first violins (I believe there were maybe 30 first violins) but I think this is something completely based on where we sat about 6 feet from first violins. This sold out a year ago so I took any seat I could. Basically, someone couldn't make it so they returned their ticket which I picked up. There was a palpable energy in the venue and everyone was giddy with excitement. I fell in love with the soprano right in front of me because her passion was so deep and beautiful. It was an event!"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on February 06, 2012, 01:46:15 PM
Johan, thanks so much for sharing that! Another friend of mine went to the dress rehearsal for the Eighth (which was at the Shrine Theater, rather than Disney Hall) and had similar feelings. He wasn't thrilled that Dudamel chose the Shrine - a vast, acoustically imperfect room with a less-than-desirable organ (compared to the magnificent instrument at Disney) - but he said in effect, "Never mind - after it all got underway it didn't matter."

I have tickets to see the Mahler 8 on Feb. 18 at a local movie theater (similar to the Met Opera broadcasts), when the same forces do it live from Caracas, and can hardly wait. Have no idea what the hall is like, but never mind: just to see Dudamel do the piece with over 1,000 performers will be an experience.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 06, 2012, 01:55:45 PM
I envy you, Bruce! When Dudamel is good, he is really good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on February 06, 2012, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 06, 2012, 01:55:45 PM
I envy you, Bruce! When Dudamel is good, he is really good.

I suspect one or the other of these Eighths (i.e., in Los Angeles or Caracas) will be available either on audio or on DVD, so you'll probably be able to hear it at some point. (And I totally agree with you. Just imagine what he's going to be like in say, ten years.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 07, 2012, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 06, 2012, 01:36:59 PM
The composer (and trombonist) Karim Elmahmoudi was also in the audience. I don't think he'll mind my relaying what he wrote to me yesterday:


"Dudamel/Mahler 8 was simply stunning. I wept being so overcome by the beauty and the magic of the event. I thought the performance was revelatory in that I tend to not be the biggest fan of Mahler's 8 finding it a bit long and dragging in parts but this performance really emphasized the beauty and transcendence in a way I hadn't really felt before with this work. Beautiful, mature interpretation by Dudamel and I believe they recorded it because there was a decca-tree above him. Since we sat on the front row, obviously there were balance issues – the 100 plus children's chorus was hard to hear because they were overwhelmed from first violins (I believe there were maybe 30 first violins) but I think this is something completely based on where we sat about 6 feet from first violins. This sold out a year ago so I took any seat I could. Basically, someone couldn't make it so they returned their ticket which I picked up. There was a palpable energy in the venue and everyone was giddy with excitement. I fell in love with the soprano right in front of me because her passion was so deep and beautiful. It was an event!"

I can certainly imagine it being absolutely amazing, having seen the photos of the 1000+ performers through facebook! Would have loved to seen it. I share the hope that a DVD may become available.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 07, 2012, 12:13:45 PM
Amazon UK release 21/02/12

[asin]B006XOBFTM[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 07, 2012, 05:17:38 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 06, 2012, 05:15:50 AM
It has a cover now.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kugC%2BAulL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005SJIP1E/?tag=goodmusicguideco-21

Why is the pic older Bernstein when this is his first cycle? ???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 07, 2012, 10:09:23 PM
Quote from: Brewski on February 06, 2012, 01:46:15 PM
I have tickets to see the Mahler 8 on Feb. 18 at a local movie theater (similar to the Met Opera broadcasts), when the same forces do it live from Caracas, and can hardly wait. Have no idea what the hall is like, but never mind: just to see Dudamel do the piece with over 1,000 performers will be an experience.

--Bruce

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 06, 2012, 01:55:45 PM
I envy you, Bruce! When Dudamel is good, he is really good.
He may be good, but his style of conducting really irritates me. I have to stop watching and just listen or I get too critical because of it. I always feel like every movement is choreographed for the camera and that he is just a fake (and makes Karajan look like a neophyte in this regard). Unfortunately, the few performances I've heard so far were not that good (on disc), but a couple live bits I've seen on TV were much better. In the hall, it might be easier with his back to you.
Title: Mahler US Trip
Post by: bwalle on February 08, 2012, 09:20:22 PM
Is anyone aware of any biographical material on Gustav Mahler during his U.S. trip from 1908-1911?  I'm looking for more information about his Metropolitan Opera performances and in particular how he managed to keep up the number of performances and demands as conductor.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on February 09, 2012, 05:08:17 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 07, 2012, 12:13:45 PM
Amazon UK release 21/02/12

[asin]B006XOBFTM[/asin]

Included here: Kindertotenlieder, DLVDE, the 9th Symphony, and Adagietto from the 5th Symphony (available in Amazon UK, US release 13/3/12)
[asin]B006MO0O0Y[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 08:22:55 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 07, 2012, 10:09:23 PM
He may be good, but his style of conducting really irritates me. I have to stop watching and just listen or I get too critical because of it. I always feel like every movement is choreographed for the camera and that he is just a fake (and makes Karajan look like a neophyte in this regard). Unfortunately, the few performances I've heard so far were not that good (on disc), but a couple live bits I've seen on TV were much better. In the hall, it might be easier with his back to you.


Even in a concert-hall I tend to concentrate on the music and often close my eyes. Only when the sheer spectacle of it (think 'Gothic' in my case) is part of the overall effect, I'll look at what's happening on stage. I don't think Dudamel is a fake. Of course, he is telegenic and that counts for a lot in these visual times, but there is a real musician there, of a very fiery sort (when he is inspired), and I like that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 09, 2012, 08:49:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 08:22:55 AM

Even in a concert-hall I tend to concentrate on the music and often close my eyes. Only when the sheer spectacle of it (think 'Gothic' in my case) is part of the overall effect, I'll look at what's happening on stage. I don't think Dudamel is a fake. Of course, he is telegenic and that counts for a lot in these visual times, but there is a real musician there, of a very fiery sort (when he is inspired), and I like that.

I don't think sol, either. Not anymore, at least. Not after members of the BPhil believably assured me that rehearsals (!!) with Dudamel were some of the best they have had.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on February 15, 2012, 07:43:58 AM
Fine piece by Mark Swed reporting from Caracas, where Dudamel, the Los Angeles Philharmonic and Simón Bolívar Symphony Orchestra of Venezuela are repeating their Mahler cycle. It all concludes on Saturday, with the Eighth.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2012/02/gustavo-dudamel-with-the-los-angeles-philharmonic-in-caracas-.html

And Daniel Wakin comments in The New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/arts/music/gustavo-dudamel-and-los-angeles-philharmonic-hailed-in-caracas.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1329325399-1w/%20PMHwECRCMZMXa1EvJQ

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on February 22, 2012, 04:47:17 PM

I'm currently listening to Hampson's later recording of the Wunderhorn. It's good, but I seem to have imprinted on Keenlyside's recordings with Rattle! Part of this is simply due to the richness and detail of that EMI recording.... On the plus side, Hampson doesn't overdo the emotion of Der Tamboursg'sell the way Keenlyside does. OTOH, Revelge sounds much too slow. The whole thing is a bit on the slow side, actually. I'll have to get this home and relisten on speakers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 28, 2012, 12:44:04 PM
Tony Duggan 1954-2012

In Memoriam


Sadly, Tony Duggan has passed on. His reviews were what I turned to when I first started to collect Mahler recordings.

Rest in peace.






Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 28, 2012, 12:54:26 PM
Quote from: Leo K on February 28, 2012, 12:44:04 PM
Tony Duggan 1954-2012

In Memoriam


Sadly, Tony Duggan has passed on. His reviews were what I turned to when I first started to collect Mahler recordings.

Rest in peace.







I was just at the musicweb site too. So sad. He was so young.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 28, 2012, 02:10:03 PM
That is sad to hear, his Mahler survey really helped me out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on February 29, 2012, 09:37:18 PM
.[ASIN]B000009KFB[/ASIN]

I wonder how many people have the above, Hampson recording of Berio's orchestration of the Lieder und Gesange? I got it because I want to hear orchestral versions of the early songs, and I liked the recording of 'Ablosung im Sommer' by Keenlyside and Rattle. Sadly, while that arrangement sounds idiomatic, being based on Mahler's use of the song in the 3rd mvt of the 3rd symphony, the other arrangements don't sound right to me. They sound more like Strauss (Johann II or Richard), generic late romantic stuff, and I especially dislike the overstuffed tuttis (especially the start of 'Scheiden und Meiden').

The samples of the six arrangements by Harold Byrns sound much better .... Shame he didn't do more.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WoGjamaKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Gustav-Mahler-Symphony-Resurrection-Wayfarer/dp/B00000E33J/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330583346&sr=1-3)


EDIT: The Wayfarer songs and other early songs done with piano on the Hampson disc are great. I think Lutz is much more comfortable in the accompaniment than is Parsons on the Janet Baker disc (the only other complete collection of the early songs to my knowledge). 

I also want to mention I'm getting much pleasure from the disc of Siegfried Lorenz singing the three song cycles that are not the Wunderhorn cycle (surely there is an easier way to refer to them?). Overall, I think "lovely" would be the right word here. (Oddly, the weakest performances are in the four appended Wunderhorn songs, all of a military nature, which I don't think suits Lorenz's voice.)
Very much recommended.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scion7 on March 01, 2012, 12:16:43 AM
Hey, that's a shame about Tony!   I was just going thru his Mahler articles in-depth a few months ago.

" British writer and Mahler specialist Tony Duggan has died. He suffered a massive stroke Wednesday night and passed away Thursday without ever regaining consciousness. He was 58. "
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 11, 2012, 08:18:20 PM
I've been listening to the songs a LOT - these two discs, to be specific:

[ASIN]B00432QNQ6[/ASIN] [ASIN]B00000JIRT[/ASIN]

I think I prefer baritones for these works*, and these recordings are of high quality and very satisfying.  I'm particularly happy to discover the Siegfried Lorenz CD, which I bought, despite its complete obscurity, after carefully comparing MP3 samples on Amazon. Check it out.



(*But I still prefer a "mixed" DLvdE.)
Title: Dudamel Mahler 8 at UK movie theatres in April
Post by: bhodges on March 21, 2012, 06:50:17 AM
Just found out the February LA Phil LIVE broadcast of the Mahler Eighth (from Caracas, Venezuela), with Gustavo Dudamel leading over 1,400 performers, will be shown in the UK in April. I saw the concert and thought it well worth seeing - if nothing else, for the sheer number of people onstage. Soloists vary from OK to good - didn't think any of them were stellar, but it didn't matter.

Screenings at the following cinemas and dates:

Apollo Picadilly Circus, April 16, 2012, at 6:30 pm
Vue Westfield, London, April 16, 2012, at 7:30 pm
Showcase CDL Bristol, April 19, 2012, at 7:30 pm
Showcase CDL Derby, April 19, 2012, at 7:30 pm
Showcase CDL Leicester, April 19, 2012, at 7:30 pm
Bluewater, April 19, 2012, at 7:30 pm
Reading, April 19, 2012, at 7:30 pm

Tickets and more info here (http://omniversevision.com/).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 21, 2012, 08:46:09 AM
I bought the Chailly box set some weeks ago, it's my third Mahler Symphonies Cycle; I've listened to almost the whole set, except symphonies No.9 and 10. I was rather impressed till now, this box set is certainly gorgeous, thrilling and wonderfully played, absolutely brilliant. So far, my favourite recordings of this cycle are symphonies No.1, No.5 and No.7; instead I was quite disappointed by the 6th, which was enjoyable but with a too slow rythm, not as powerful and haunting as I expected for Mahler's work; I think both the Bernstein and the Solti are much better. Similar speech for the 8th, slow rythm at the beginning which made the piece lack some strenght and expressive power, although the rest of the symphony was intense and passionate enough.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on March 21, 2012, 05:01:38 PM
Agreed on the 5th and 7th in Chailly. I probably prefer Leipzig/Neumann in the 5th and Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim in the 7th, but it's only by a hair at most.

Meanwhile, I finally heard the semi-legendary Bruno Maderna recording of the 9th. Been a long, long time since any recording of anything has completely floored me like this. Wow.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 21, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
Quote from: edward on March 21, 2012, 05:01:38 PM
Agreed on the 5th and 7th in Chailly. I probably prefer Leipzig/Neumann in the 5th and Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim in the 7th, but it's only by a hair at most.

Meanwhile, I finally heard the semi-legendary Bruno Maderna recording of the 9th. Been a long, long time since any recording of anything has completely floored me like this. Wow.

I'm always a sucker for another 9th, so how could I not get this one after reading your comment?  Ordering it in another tab of my browser as I  post this....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 23, 2012, 09:48:15 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 21, 2012, 08:49:41 PM
I'm always a sucker for another 9th, so how could I not get this one after reading your comment?  Ordering it in another tab of my browser as I  post this....

I assume this is the BBC Legends disk? Oh yes, I agree, a magnificant interpretation!

8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 23, 2012, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: Leo K on March 23, 2012, 09:48:15 AM
I assume this is the BBC Legends disk? Oh yes, I agree, a magnificant interpretation!

8)

Yes, it is (I posted it in the Purchases Today thread).  And I found a copy of Scherchen's First with the Royal Philharmonic coupled with his 10th-Adagio with the Vienna State Opera Orch.  in the used CD bin for $4.99.  Played it this afternoon.  Both sounded fabulous, although they're in mono, of course.  (The CD I have was issued by DG under the rubric of Westminster: The Legacy--or at least the copyright holder is named as DG.  Apparently there are other issues floating around with other couplings for each of these performances, so that's why I'm being specific.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on March 25, 2012, 12:55:03 PM
This disc recently came to me from my grandfather's collection. But I've never heard Mahler's Fourth Symphony (!) and am wondering if it's a good place to begin.

[asin]B00000E3HM[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 25, 2012, 01:34:02 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 25, 2012, 12:55:03 PM
This disc recently came to me from my grandfather's collection. But I've never heard Mahler's Fourth Symphony (!) and am wondering if it's a good place to begin.

[asin]B00000E3HM[/asin]

Every Mahler's symphony is a good place to begin, and if Karajan is the conductor you can't get wrong!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 05:01:51 PM
Without having actually heard this recording, I would say your experience will depend on how you feel about Karajan.


I watched my recently bought DVD of Bernstein conducting the Lieder. Despite my misgivings about Bernstein, it was overall excellent, and I think I will have to get the Bernstein/Hampson CD.
As one who rarely reads the lyrics while listening to vocal music, it was interesting to watch with the subtitles on: I have increased respect for Mahler's Gesellen lyrics, particularly the first two songs (plus of course I've gained more knowledge of the Wunderhorn tradition, which obviously influenced him).
The Ruckert songs compare well with the Lorenz/Suitner recording, and I prefer Bernstein here because he leans into the ending of Leibst du um Schonheit much more, whereas Suitner is comparatively abrupt. I do, however, prefer these songs done in numerical order, because I think it makes the most dramatic sense.
I was slightly disappointed by the Kindertotenlieder though, which seemed somehow superficial, and a bit rushed. I'm not sure if this video performance is the same as the one on CD, which I recall as being pulled about a bit much.
The Wunderhorn was a mixed bag. The Israel PO doesn't have as good a sound as the Wiener Phil. I'm not a fan of "mixed" Wunderhorns, and think it's rather simple minded to insist that the songs with "he" and "she" parts be duets. In this performance, the unnecessaryness of this arrangement is magnified by the fact that Lucia Popp sings solo several songs which are from the male viewpoint. Groenroos starts pretty badly but improves as the set proceeds, as indeed does the performance as a whole. He is especially enjoyable in the more comic numbers. Unfortunately he labours beneath a truly awful haircut.

[ASIN]B000QCQ71I[/ASIN]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 05:13:34 PM
Mel Gibson: Mahler gives you wings . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 05:27:10 PM

What?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 06:15:24 PM
In Conspiracy Theory, his character (Jerry, I think the name is) has a line, "Love gives you wings."

And Lenny looks like he's tryin' to fly, there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 06:25:05 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 06:15:24 PMIn Conspiracy Theory, his character (Jerry, I think the name is) has a line, "Love gives you wings."

And Lenny looks like he's tryin' to fly, there.


Yes, he looks like he should be miniaturised and stuck on the front of a Rolls Royce!

"Love gives you wings" only reminded me of the animated ad for "smart drink" Red Bull. Slogan: "Red Bull gives you wings". I think this might be Australia only.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 06:56:31 PM
Oh, mebbe here, too; it's just one of those commercial artifacts I filter out, visually.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 25, 2012, 06:57:45 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 05:13:34 PM
Mel Gibson: Mahler gives you wings . . . .
Certainly truer than Red Bull.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 25, 2012, 07:15:12 PM
The Cleveland Orchestra has been doing a "residency" in Miami for the last couple of years--that is, they come three or four times during the concert season to give full weekend's worth of concerts in downtown Miami. 
They've announced  next years concerts, which will begin with a weekend in November with the featured work being Mahler's Third   The chorus are local, the soloist's name I recognized when I read it in this morning's paper, but can not for the life of me remember right now.  Franz Welser-Most will conduct.  (How is he in Mahler?)
This means I will drag myself into downtown Miami for the first time in years. 

I'm assuming that they will also be giving the work in Cleveland either before or after the concerts in Miami, so Cleveland area folks might want to take notice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on March 25, 2012, 08:57:29 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 25, 2012, 12:55:03 PM
This disc recently came to me from my grandfather's collection. But I've never heard Mahler's Fourth Symphony (!) and am wondering if it's a good place to begin.

The Fourth has some of the least 'neurotic' Mahler of the lot along with the First, perhaps even less, but it doesn't have an overly long last movement; in that sense, it's not "true" Mahler, I suppose. But it has it's share of really good moments. Yes, give it a try, I'd say.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 25, 2012, 08:57:29 PMThe Fourth has some of the least 'neurotic' Mahler of the lot along with the First, perhaps even less, but it doesn't have an overly long last movement; in that sense, it's not "true" Mahler, I suppose. But it has it's share of really good moments. Yes, give it a try, I'd say.

I would certainly dispute this. The joyous pastorale is an important aspect of Mahler. See the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer songs, symphonies 1 and 4 (as mentioned), and individual movements from all the non-vocal symphonies excepting 6.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on March 25, 2012, 09:44:54 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 09:30:44 PM
I would certainly dispute this. The joyous pastorale is an important aspect of Mahler. See the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer songs, symphonies 1 and 4 (as mentioned), and individual movements from all the non-vocal symphonies excepting 6.

I didn't say it wasn't an aspect of his music, but only emphasising that it's just that -- a component of a whole (also comprising the "neurosis"), which, to me, defines Mahler. But in these symphonies, the crazy and depressed side of his doesn't show up as much, if at all, compared to the others.

I wouldn't really be listening to Mahler as much if (what I'd like to call) his inner Bohemian hadn't contrasted so much with struggling artist in these works. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 10:21:03 PM
Although it's the aspect newcomers notice most, I don't think neurosis is the defining characteristic of Mahler, or even the prime characteristic, though undoubtedly his emotional sensitivity and openness to the darker aspects of life is the reason his work is so powerful. But most of his symphonies end happily, after all.

I do worry that emphasising der schmerz over all will scare off people who find the uniformly dour and angst-ridden tiresome (I'm thinking of Karl in particular here :) ).

(But I do like a good helping of dourness and angst myself - provided there's a good tune attached.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 25, 2012, 11:28:04 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 10:21:03 PM
Although it's the aspect newcomers notice most, I don't think neurosis is the defining characteristic of Mahler, or even the prime characteristic
I do worry that emphasising der schmerz over all will scare off people who find the uniformly dour and angst-ridden tiresome (I'm thinking of Karl in particular here :) ).


Very much agreed with! That's the Mahler that's left after he's been filtered through his own cliche. There's a reason for it, but it's a pitfall, too. Much the same with Nietzsche, esp. in translations, which invariably (Kaufmann-translations excepted) sound more Nietzschean in English than in the original.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 11:38:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 25, 2012, 11:28:04 PMVery much agreed with! That's the Mahler that's left after he's been filtered through his own cliche. There's a reason for it, but it's a pitfall, too. Much the same with Nietzsche, esp. in translations, which invariably (Kaufmann-translations excepted) sounds more Nietzschean in English than in the original.

"When thou goest to woman, take thy whip." That always gives me a chuckle :D


Opus106, I do recommend familiarising yourself, if you haven't already, with Mahler's orchestral songs (Das Knaben Wunderhorn, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen ('Songs of a Wayfarer'), Kindertotenlieder, and the Five Ruckert Songs). I came to them fairly recently but I think they have really rounded out my understanding of Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on March 26, 2012, 03:42:17 PM
I think there's been a misunderstanding! I'm not a newcomer to Mahler; I'm a newcomer to Mahler's Fourth. And I have the Karajan/DG/Mathis recording now and was wondering, is that a good introduction to the symphony?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 26, 2012, 06:14:57 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 11:38:57 PM


Opus106, I do recommend familiarising yourself, if you haven't already, with Mahler's orchestral songs (Das Knaben Wunderhorn, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen ('Songs of a Wayfarer'), Kindertotenlieder, and the Five Ruckert Songs). I came to them fairly recently but I think they have really rounded out my understanding of Mahler.

Hmm, I've always felt the Wayfarer songs to be the epitome of schmerz--but most of the darker Wunderhorn songs are not really sentimental,  just dark and sometimes macabre.  Kindertotenlieder, which you would think would be another epitome of schmerz, is really the transcending of sentimentality and very life affirming.  Nothing neurotic there.  And the Ruckert Lieder are simply transcendental. 

Symphony 4 is at points a parody of sentimentality, but then you have the Ruhevoll movement, which someone I know once said is the greatest movement any composer ever wrote.  But the only Mahler by Karajan I have is the 9th, so I don't know how good an introduction to the Fourth that one really is. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 26, 2012, 07:40:39 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 26, 2012, 06:14:57 PMHmm, I've always felt the Wayfarer songs to be the epitome of schmerz--but most of the darker Wunderhorn songs are not really sentimental,  just dark and sometimes macabre.  Kindertotenlieder, which you would think would be another epitome of schmerz, is really the transcending of sentimentality and very life affirming.  Nothing neurotic there.  And the Ruckert Lieder are simply transcendental.
Schmerz = pain, not "sentimentality".

I dislike accusations of sentimentality, an imprecise term which some use to mean "a strong expression of emotion, of which I disapprove". It's not a serious criticism.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 26, 2012, 07:57:55 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 26, 2012, 07:40:39 PM
Schmerz = pain, not "sentimentality".

I dislike accusations of sentimentality, an imprecise term which some use to mean "a strong expression of emotion, of which I disapprove". It's not a serious criticism.

Well, it's hard enough to agree sometimes on what an English word means in English,  so no wonder that it may be hard to agree on what a German word means in English.

To me, the pain associated with "schmerz" is self inflicted pain--the sort where you twist the knife into yourself, so to speak.  But for me the major meaning is sentimentality, which for me means emotion that is purposely manufactured or manipulated.   Fake emotion, in other words, or at least emotion that doesn't really come from the heart.  It's self indulgent in the worst sense.  This sometimes works out to something approaching the definition that you give for sentimentality, of course, but not always. 

However, if we stick to your definition of 'schmerz', I think my description of the Mahler song cycles are still valid.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 26, 2012, 09:14:45 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 26, 2012, 07:57:55 PMBut for me the major meaning is sentimentality, which for me means emotion that is purposely manufactured or manipulated.   Fake emotion, in other words, or at least emotion that doesn't really come from the heart.  It's self indulgent in the worst sense.

Ultimately this would have to be a matter of opinion, of course. This is a subject which has exercised me recently.  I was reading a book about writing in which the author (obviously of the Hemingway O'Hara school of he-man writing) tried to deal with the topic of sentimentality.

First, he quoted his negative example, something like, "She sat on the bed and wept. It was all over. Would she ever find someone who would love her again? The tears rolled down her cheeks." Now, the bit about the tears is obvious a cliche, and thus banal. But the rest is a legitimate expression of strong emotion through the close third person perspective (admittedly a bit crude, but I think it was better in the original example).

Next, he contributed his example of how to deal unsentimentally with a powerful emotional scene, in this case a man facing the death of his mother in hospital. It went something like, "He looked at the drip hanging by the bed, then looked at his mother, dead on the bed. The nurse wanted to speak to him. She was very tall. He wondered if she had just begun her shift, or was nearing its end. After she had gone to get a coffee, he went outside and looked up at the stars. Cold rain began to fall on his face."

There are several problems with this. First, recital of bare facts can be dramatically effective, but if done without skill it can make the writer seem like an OCD psychopath, which is what I think happens here (there was a great deal more meaningless detail in this example, but I can't recall it all now). The guy's mother just died, so this emphasis on idle thoughts about the nurse is just bathetic (odd thoughts can certainly appear to one in stressful situations, but one is always struck by their oddity, a reaction the writer fails to address here). Also, this stuff about looking at the stars and rain falling on one's face is a cliche no less lamentable than the cheek-rolling tears, I would say.
(He had also previously asserted that writing ideally would describe objective events but never go into the characters' heads, but he broke this rule to give us the irrelevant speculation about the nurse.)

So yeah, that's what I've been thinking about. Sorry to go so far off topic.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 26, 2012, 11:15:27 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 26, 2012, 03:42:17 PM
I think there's been a misunderstanding! I'm not a newcomer to Mahler; I'm a newcomer to Mahler's Fourth. And I have the Karajan/DG/Mathis recording now and was wondering, is that a good introduction to the symphony?

Wouldn't that question make more sense before settling on a recording? Now you'll listen to it anyway, as you should, if you've never heard M4.

And yes, like 90% of all recordings of M4, it's a perfectly fine recording. For that matter, it's better than just "perfectly fine". And M4 is not a work that either stands or falls with an interpretive nuance here or there different that you might like. I'm not particularly keen on very old recordings of the Fourth (early Walter) -- the bad SQ is not just a nuance, it's a nuisance.  And I'm not keen on certain sopranos (Gielen/Whittlesey, Abbado/Fleming) or boy's voices (Bernstein, DG)... but even that shouldn't keep anyone from listening to M4 at last.

Classical WETA:
Mahler, 4th Symphony
Parts 1 - 3
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1157 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1157)
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1170 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1170)
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 26, 2012, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 26, 2012, 07:57:55 PM
Well, it's hard enough to agree sometimes on what an English word means in English,  so no wonder that it may be hard to agree on what a German word means in English.

To me, the pain associated with "schmerz" is self inflicted pain--the sort where you twist the knife into yourself, so to speak.  But for me the major meaning is sentimentality, which for me means emotion that is purposely manufactured or manipulated.   Fake emotion, in other words, or at least emotion that doesn't really come from the heart.  It's self indulgent in the worst sense.  This sometimes works out to something approaching the definition that you give for sentimentality, of course, but not always. 

However, if we stick to your definition of 'schmerz', I think my description of the Mahler song cycles are still valid.

The primary meaning of "Schmerz" is "Pain" -- no two ways about it.

If a German speaker meant to tune the word into covering realms more bathetic, he or she would do so by adding another noun to it, or more, and celebrating a Wortneuschöpfung, which is of course German for 'new-word-creation'.

Schmerz, the English loan-word, does have other connotations, though... some that go more into the direction that eyeresist feels the word ought to have. Why that is is hard to say -- perhaps because it traveled over the ocean while it was still attached to Welt. But those meanings are perfectly valid to consider, because Mahler got the Schmerz-label attached in English, rather than in German... and so it accurately describes others' description of Mahler's music. (Still, that doesn't make Mahler's music so.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mszczuj on March 27, 2012, 01:05:26 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 25, 2012, 10:21:03 PM
But most of his symphonies end happily, after all.

In my definitive (the one when you understand all) Mahler listening some years ago I discovered that all his symphonies end happily.

Final of the 6th is triumphal as the whole movement  even if the very end of it is tragic. But in the nature of spiritual triumph is that it is beyond the time. So it doesn't matter how the story ends. What is important is its high point. In my definitive Mahler listening I thought that revelation of this was the aim of being tragic in the 6th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on March 27, 2012, 03:05:47 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 26, 2012, 11:15:27 PM
Wouldn't that question make more sense before settling on a recording?

It would, but the disc is now in my hands having come from my Alzheimer's-plagued grandmother's collection, which she doesn't know how to play anymore.

Quote from: jlaurson on March 26, 2012, 11:15:27 PM
Now you'll listen to it anyway, as you should, if you've never heard M4.

And yes, like 90% of all recordings of M4, it's a perfectly fine recording. For that matter, it's better than just "perfectly fine". And M4 is not a work that either stands or falls with an interpretive nuance here or there different that you might like. I'm not particularly keen on very old recordings of the Fourth (early Walter) -- the bad SQ is not just a nuance, it's a nuisance.  And I'm not keen on certain sopranos (Gielen/Whittlesey, Abbado/Fleming) or boy's voices (Bernstein, DG)... but even that shouldn't keep anyone from listening to M4 at last.

Classical WETA:
Mahler, 4th Symphony
Parts 1 - 3
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1157 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1157)
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1170 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1170)
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192)

Thanks very much, Jens.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 27, 2012, 08:08:51 PM
Quote from: edward on March 21, 2012, 05:01:38 PM
Agreed on the 5th and 7th in Chailly. I probably prefer Leipzig/Neumann in the 5th and Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim in the 7th, but it's only by a hair at most.

Meanwhile, I finally heard the semi-legendary Bruno Maderna recording of the 9th. Been a long, long time since any recording of anything has completely floored me like this. Wow.

Listened to it tonight, and it is a good representative of schmerzfree Mahler.  But I think the Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle is better artistically and certainly far superior sonically.  Edward, have you heard that performance?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 27, 2012, 11:36:53 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on March 27, 2012, 01:05:26 AMFinal of the 6th is triumphal as the whole movement  even if the very end of it is tragic. But in the nature of spiritual triumph is that it is beyond the time. So it doesn't matter how the story ends. What is important is its high point. In my definitive Mahler listening I thought that revelation of this was the aim of being tragic in the 6th.

This argument seems confused to me. The 6 finale is triumphant even though it ends on a downer, because it has triumphant elements? The triumphalism of the finale is generally agreed to be ironic: the music begins ambiguously, and ends morosely, and the triumphalist moments between those two endpoints are always undercut (the famous hammer blows of fate). As for your idea that the ending doesn't matter in comparison with whatever high point is reached during the movement, I simply disagree. I'm with the ancient Greeks on this, who said you can't call a person's life good or bad until you know how they died.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mszczuj on March 28, 2012, 04:16:54 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 27, 2012, 11:36:53 PM
This argument seems confused to me. The 6 finale is triumphant even though it ends on a downer, because it has triumphant elements? The triumphalism of the finale is generally agreed to be ironic: the music begins ambiguously, and ends morosely, and the triumphalist moments between those two endpoints are always undercut (the famous hammer blows of fate). As for your idea that the ending doesn't matter in comparison with whatever high point is reached during the movement, I simply disagree. I'm with the ancient Greeks on this, who said you can't call a person's life good or bad until you know how they died.

Symphonies are not stories about one's life. Especially good great symphonies. They are models of the universe revealing how it works and how individual mind works inside universal spirit and how it can work. The aim of Mahler music is usuallyto show the way to the Absolute, to show how in spiritual world is possible to understand that  all can be well even sorrow (life and sorrow and world and dream),  to "ziehen hinan". The exception is the 6th. Is it really?

Should it be readed straightforwardly?

"My Sixth will propound riddles the solution of which may be attempted only by a generation which has absorbed and truly digested my first five symphonies."

"My Sixth seems to be yet another hard nut, one that our critics' feeble little teeth cannot crack."

What did he mean?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on March 28, 2012, 04:54:16 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 27, 2012, 08:08:51 PM
Listened to it tonight, and it is a good representative of schmerzfree Mahler.  But I think the Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle is better artistically and certainly far superior sonically.  Edward, have you heard that performance?
I've not heard any of the Zinman recordings; I've been expanding my Mahler collection very slowly of late as I have somewhere between 5 and 15 recordings of each symphony, so I tend to only pick up a new one when I find it very cheaply.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 28, 2012, 04:26:31 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on March 28, 2012, 04:16:54 AMSymphonies are not stories about one's life. Especially good great symphonies. They are models of the universe revealing how it works and how individual mind works inside universal spirit and how it can work. The aim of Mahler music is usuallyto show the way to the Absolute, to show how in spiritual world is possible to understand that  all can be well even sorrow (life and sorrow and world and dream),  to "ziehen hinan".

I'd say this all comes from you, not Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mszczuj on March 28, 2012, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 28, 2012, 04:26:31 PM
I'd say this all comes from you, not Mahler.

I'd say part of this all was chosen by Mahler to be placed in his works and part of this chosen was written by Mahler himself.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 28, 2012, 04:54:45 PM
^ Please rewrite this last for clarity.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mszczuj on March 28, 2012, 05:20:55 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on March 28, 2012, 04:54:45 PM
^ Please rewrite this last for clarity.

I quoted Mahler's words. So not all comes from me. Mahler's words come from Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 28, 2012, 05:34:58 PM
Which words were Mahler's?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 28, 2012, 05:56:55 PM
I've just been reading an interview with Herbert Blomstedt, in which he said some interesting things about Mahler (and also Bruckner):

QuoteWhen I compare the two, what surprises me is how modern Bruckner was compared to Mahler. What Bruckner wrote in 1868 is much more daring than what Mahler wrote in 1890, harmonically speaking. And he did it with the same orchestra as Beethoven used; not more instruments. ... Mahler perhaps in 1908, 1909, 1910, 1911, by the 10th Symphony, would have approached something like this, maybe also in the 9th Symphony there were some harmonically daring progressions. But the Mahler of the 1890s was not going in that direction. He developed other parts of his musical language that really made up Mahler. Mahler did not have to be more modern; he had to be more Mahler.

Beethoven was not telling us about his being afraid, about becoming deaf or of his anguish. He speaks for man as a species. I feel the same with Bruckner; he speaks for man as a species. Whereas Mahler speaks absolutely for himself and he shows us that this is also part of you. We can have sympathy for him and he appeals to us 'Oh, yes, I have something similar in me'. And that's why we like him so much; 'He suffered just as I do'. But Bruckner's music is on another kind of level. It's very personal, but it is not so subjective. This is why I feel with Bruckner's music you get a sense of the truth; this is like it is. It is real. One of the most wonderful passages in Mahler's music is the one where he gives an idea of an ideal world, of ideal happiness, in heaven – in his 'Wunderhorn-Lieder', 'I long to be in heaven'. And you have a wonderful feeling that this is where you want to be. But with Bruckner's music, you are there! And it's real, you know! It's not only a vision that you forget three bars later. Mahler's says that it's something to be hopeful for, but it's not real, it doesn't exist, but you must not forget to dream about it and hope for it and work towards it, but really, it does not exist. Whereas Bruckner creates a situation where it does exist, and it's here! ... Bruckner's music tells us there is also a line, that there is a vision there, that there is a hope for eternity. For Mahler, eternity is only a dream, but for Bruckner it's real.

[Mahler] said to his students 'If something in my works does not work in terms of balance, change it', or 'If you feel that the oboe is too weak here, use the clarinet instead, and if it's still too weak, double it, triple it, or put the piccolo on top' and he did not only give his students free hand to do it, but he said that they must do it! This is completely foreign to our feeling today where everything Mahler wrote is sacrosanct – you don't change a note, you don't change one instrument. The job of the conductor is to change the sound balances so that everything can be maximally clearly heard and so on, but you don't change the colours; that's a crime!

I don't have nearly as many questions for Mahler as I'd have for Bruckner because Mahler was much more detailed when he wrote his scores. There is hardly one note that doesn't have a special marking – a dot, an accent, a wedge or a dynamic marking. Sometimes there are two, three or even four markings for one note. So you can pretty well read his thoughts when you read the score. Bruckner was not so detailed in some of his works, but perhaps more than many people – much more detailed than Beethoven or Mozart and so on. But for me, Bruckner is more enigmatic than Mahler. I feel that Mahler's message is pretty clear to me. This does not mean that I know it for all times. Tomorrow, I might have other ideas. It's like that with any great music; you can never come close enough to it.

The basic temperament of a musician is melancholic. He's happy when others are happy, he's sad when others are sad; he is very influenceable. He has to have a lot of empathy. Without this empathy you cannot be a musician, you cannot really be an interpreter of somebody else's thoughts. But the other side of the coin is that you're lonely. ... This feeling of being alone is very close to me, I know it very well. So I can sympathize with Mahler who was always alone, he was never really at home – only when he was in his own world.

[Mahler's 9th] After the first movement, and from the very outset, it's a farewell [sings] 'Leb wohl'. But he was accustomed to saying goodbye all his life; goodbye to his brothers and sisters who died; goodbye to his wife who went astray; goodbye to his child that died; goodbye to Vienna; goodbye to his wonderful opera house and wonderful singers; to the orchestra; goodbye, goodbye. And also the American episode was so short. ... It fits perfectly with his fate.

http://mahler.universaledition.com/herbert-blomstedt-on-gustav-mahler/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mszczuj on March 28, 2012, 06:03:29 PM
Songs of a Wayfarer ends with:

"I did not know how life went on,
and all was well again!
All! All, love and sorrow
and world and dream!"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on March 28, 2012, 06:16:14 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on March 28, 2012, 06:03:29 PMSongs of Wayfarer ends with:

"I did not know how life went on,
and all was well again!
All! All, love and sorrow
and world and dream!"

Maybe Mahler should have orchestrated "Row, row, row your boat" :)


EDIT: BTW, it's well worth following the link in my previous post, as it collects a number of interviews with conductors to mark the Universal Mahler edition.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 28, 2012, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: edward on March 28, 2012, 04:54:16 AM
I've not heard any of the Zinman recordings; I've been expanding my Mahler collection very slowly of late as I have somewhere between 5 and 15 recordings of each symphony, so I tend to only pick up a new one when I find it very cheaply.

I seem to accumulate Mahler recordings at the drop of a hammer, so to speak--especially box set.  But for the Second and the Ninth I have--well, let's just I could play a different recording of the Second every day for a month and not need to repeat any, and the Ninth is not far behind.

When and if you do get around to Zinman, i would suggest going for his Ninth, Third and Fourth.  I think his Ninth Adagio is the greatest performance of that movement I've ever heard--it's rather like what ascending into Heaven must be like in sonic terms. The Third and Fourth impressed me greatly.   The others, except for the Tenth, which is a total misfire, are good but not outstanding. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on March 29, 2012, 04:53:47 AM
Thanks for the suggestions! I may well look into the Fourth specifically, as it's one I'm probably due to spend some time with soon.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on March 31, 2012, 01:05:47 PM
Quote from: Brian on March 26, 2012, 03:42:17 PM
I think there's been a misunderstanding! I'm not a newcomer to Mahler; I'm a newcomer to Mahler's Fourth. And I have the Karajan/DG/Mathis recording now and was wondering, is that a good introduction to the symphony?
see http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=9068963  complete performance starts at about 10:05
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 02, 2012, 03:53:48 AM
I saw M3 live in concert yesterday, the LSO/Bychkov.

It was an absolutely beautiful concert, which moved me very much. The performance was outstanding, very expressive. Certainly one of the most thrilling first movements I have heard, plus the trombone solo was excellent. And one of the most emotional, powerful performances of the finale I have heard too. And all the inner movements were excellent too, the fourth movement with the soprano Christianne Stotijn was heavenly.

The third symphony is just so amazing! This was the first time I had seen it performed live, so it was an amazing experience. Now, I just have to see no.2, 7 and 8 live, and I will have seen them all live at least once! Of course I intend to see them many more times though, and hopefully conduct them in the future too... :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on April 03, 2012, 07:39:12 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 02, 2012, 03:53:48 AM
I saw M3 live in concert yesterday, the LSO/Bychkov.

The third symphony is just so amazing! This was the first time I had seen it performed live, so it was an amazing experience....

How about the offstage trumpet??

I heard M3 live in June in Poland - Warsaw/Antoni Wit - and count it the best orchestral playing I've ever seen anywhere. I think back and figure my memory must be faulty and it can't possibly be that good, except that during the concert I distinctly remember thinking, multiple times, "Now, in the future you will look back on this and think 'your memory must be faulty, it couldn't have been that good,' but don't worry, it is." I just don't have words to describe it. Partly it was the majesty and incredible color of the music, partly the incredibly intimate acoustic, partly I've never just heard any orchestra like that before. When you're a few years along and have travel money, check the WPO/Wit schedules in case Mahler or something similarly grandiose comes up. Wizzair flights are only about 45 pounds each way and you can live (unhealthily) off the paczkis. :)

Mahler's Third is on my "500 miles" list. That is, I would go 500 miles to see it live. Oh wait... I lived in London and flew to Warsaw and that's 1,000 miles!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 04, 2012, 02:41:15 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2012, 07:39:12 PM
How about the offstage trumpet??

I heard M3 live in June in Poland - Warsaw/Antoni Wit - and count it the best orchestral playing I've ever seen anywhere. I think back and figure my memory must be faulty and it can't possibly be that good, except that during the concert I distinctly remember thinking, multiple times, "Now, in the future you will look back on this and think 'your memory must be faulty, it couldn't have been that good,' but don't worry, it is." I just don't have words to describe it. Partly it was the majesty and incredible color of the music, partly the incredibly intimate acoustic, partly I've never just heard any orchestra like that before. When you're a few years along and have travel money, check the WPO/Wit schedules in case Mahler or something similarly grandiose comes up. Wizzair flights are only about 45 pounds each way and you can live (unhealthily) off the paczkis. :)

Mahler's Third is on my "500 miles" list. That is, I would go 500 miles to see it live. Oh wait... I lived in London and flew to Warsaw and that's 1,000 miles!

The offstage flugelhorn solo was absolutely beautiful. The atmosphere in the hall, with just the flugelhorn sounding amongst those hushed tremelo violins... it was heavenly!

Wow... must have been an amazing concert! I think the Bychkov performance reached that kind of response from me too, it certainly was absolutely amazing.
haha :) I would certainly be interested in seeing Wit's Mahler, so when I have the money, yes, I'll keep an eye out for them. ;)
Mahler 3 would be on my '500 miles' list too! I would have certainly gone to Berlin to see Rattle's recent performance for example. And there must be many other great performances being held of it around the world...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 04, 2012, 06:12:43 AM
Bumping this post for benefit of Daniel Brian and anyone else who's interested.


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 25, 2012, 07:15:12 PM
The Cleveland Orchestra has been doing a "residency" in Miami for the last couple of years--that is, they come three or four times during the concert season to give full weekend's worth of concerts in downtown Miami. 
They've announced  next years concerts, which will begin with a weekend in November with the featured work being Mahler's Third   The chorus are local, the soloist's name I recognized when I read it in this morning's paper, but can not for the life of me remember right now.  Franz Welser-Most will conduct.  (How is he in Mahler?)
This means I will drag myself into downtown Miami for the first time in years. 

I'm assuming that they will also be giving the work in Cleveland either before or after the concerts in Miami, so Cleveland area folks might want to take notice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 04, 2012, 08:12:51 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 04, 2012, 06:12:43 AM
Bumping this post for benefit of Daniel Brian and anyone else who's interested.

Thank you for that, Jeffrey. Certainly sounds like a great concert. If only I could persuade my parents to take me to America for the concert... ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 04, 2012, 08:20:18 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 04, 2012, 08:12:51 AM
Thank you for that, Jeffrey. Certainly sounds like a great concert. If only I could persuade my parents to take me to America for the concert... ;D

Just convince them that November is the best time to visit Disney World.    It's only about four hours to drive from Orlando to Miami.  (I know Brits seem to think that American distances are vast.   But that's not really a long way.  And you can take them to South Beach as their reward after the concert.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on April 04, 2012, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 04, 2012, 06:12:43 AM
Bumping this post for benefit of Daniel Brian and anyone else who's interested.

Oh man. Can I make it to Miami in November? I'll put it in the calendar and weigh the decision around July/Aug. ... right now I'm afraid the plane tickets would take up about 15% of my life savings.  :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2012, 03:11:27 PM
M3 for me, later this month. With Fischer, Ivan.

Old news to me, the work, and usually disappointing... but the first time my better half will hear it. Not just live, but probably ever. I envy her.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 05, 2012, 03:15:18 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 04, 2012, 03:11:27 PM
M3 for me, later this month. With Fischer, Ivan.

Old news to me, the work, and usually disappointing... but the first time my better half will hear it. Not just live, but probably ever. I envy her.

Well, it sounds like a great performance, Jens! I saw Fischer in M1 last summer at the BBC Proms which was a thrilling concert. Let us know what it's like! :) 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 05, 2012, 04:02:35 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 05, 2012, 03:15:18 AM
Well, it sounds like a great performance, Jens! I saw Fischer in M1 last summer at the BBC Proms which was a thrilling concert. Let us know what it's like! :)

Dutifully, I will.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 05, 2012, 08:14:51 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2012, 02:56:25 PM
Oh man. Can I make it to Miami in November? I'll put it in the calendar and weigh the decision around July/Aug. ... right now I'm afraid the plane tickets would take up about 15% of my life savings.  :(

http://www.clevelandorchestra.com/news-and-media/news-releases/2012/Mar-23-Miami.aspx

Friday, November 16, 2012 at 8 p.m.
Saturday, November 17, 2012 at 8 p.m.

Knight Concert Hall, Adrienne Arsht Center for the Performing Arts
Franz Welser-Möst, conductor
Bernarda Fink, mezzo-soprano
University of Miami Frost Symphonic Women's Chorus
     Karen Kennedy, director
Miami Children's Chorus
     Timothy A. Sharp, music director

MAHLER           Symphony No. 3


I have assumed that they'll be doing the same works in Cleveland around that time, but digging through their website I couldn't find any mention of their plans for the 2012/3 season in Cleveland.

Actually, looking over the listing, there's at least one thing on each concert that I've never heard live and would be interested in hearing live--Beethoven 9 (Gurn, are you listening?),  Beethoven VC and PC4, Shostakovich 10.    (Symphonie Fantastique--meh.)  I may yet spring for the full bill....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 05, 2012, 11:07:18 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 05, 2012, 08:14:51 AM
MAHLER           Symphony No. 3[/i]

I have assumed that they'll be doing the same works in Cleveland around that time, but digging through their website I couldn't find any mention of their plans for the 2012/3 season in Cleveland.

It's too early for them to release next season's schedule. But I hope they do perform it in Cleveland too. I usually go back to Ohio in the Fall. A Mahler 3, in Cleveland, in October or early November, would be an added incentive to make the trip. I heard W-M conduct the Fifth a few years ago. Marvelous performance, with an unusually slow first movement that worked really well and flawless orchestral execution that reminded me of the Szell years.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 07, 2012, 11:56:04 AM
If anyone is interested in taking part in the Blind Comparison for Mahler 6 that I have started, please take a look and register on the thread which is linked below. :) Should be great fun!!!!

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20315.msg618303/topicseen.html#msg618303 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20315.msg618303/topicseen.html#msg618303)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 11:12:17 AM

Glad i found this thread!
Thanks to all of you who directed me to it!
There's a lot to read so i'll catch you later!! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2012, 11:20:24 AM
This one's (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,437.msg8065.html#msg8065) good, too, although at some point it's more for sheer entertainment . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2012, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2012, 11:20:24 AM
This one's (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,437.msg8065.html#msg8065) good, too, although at some point it's more for sheer entertainment . . . .

I completely forgot about that thread. I'll have to re-read, yes, for the entertainment value. I don't even remember writing this in defense of Shostakovich in the face of an attack by the strange Sydney Grew:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2008, 05:58:46 AM
We contend that it is completely possible to be a sensitive and discriminating person and still possess a pair of balls and the ability to use your ears like a man.

Sarge

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2012, 12:06:14 PM
That was one for the ages, Sarge!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on April 09, 2012, 12:10:44 PM
Now, that's one I could use in my next psychotherapy workshop.

I have used a few from GMG, believe me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2012, 12:12:15 PM
(Uh-oh . . . .)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 01:41:40 PM

What are peoples thoughts on this collection?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SJfK0bWoL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 09, 2012, 01:47:26 PM
Quote from: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 01:41:40 PM
What are peoples thoughts on this collection?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SJfK0bWoL._SS400_.jpg)

That has many great recordings in it, so would probably be a good choice, Mark, and a good introduction to Mahler's entire output. At some point, I would highly recommend that you get the Bernstein set of the Mahler symphonies on DG though. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 01:55:59 PM

Thanks for that!
Is this the Bernstein set?
Reviews are pretty good!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CMHNZEMRL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 09, 2012, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 01:41:40 PM
What are peoples thoughts on this collection?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SJfK0bWoL._SS400_.jpg)
G. Mahler
"Complete Works"
EMI (~£21)
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003D0ZNWY/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B003D0ZNWY)

Hodge-podge of excellence and so-so stuff. (See below) Barbirolli M6, Giulini M1 are the top draw here. And, depending on how you feel about them, some of the older recordings with F'wangler, Walter, Szell...

Ultimately it depends on what you already have, or what else you have... but all things being equal, the DG-box is superior, and by a considerable margin.  [Except: WTF: It's already out of print? Geeez. Well, there goes that set's competitiveness.]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DeOQ6ra4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
G. Mahler
"Complete Works"
DG (~£75)
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003BZC2RU/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B003BZC2RU)


CD 1 - "Das Klagende Lied". Simon Rattle/C.B.S.O., 1983/84 [Nothing wrong with that version]
Piano Quartet movement. Domus, 1988

CD 2 - "Songs Of A Wayfarer". D. Fischer-Dieskau/Furtwaengler/Philharmonia, 1952 [Aged classic]
Symphony #1. Giulini/Chicago Symphony, 1971 [Very fine, underrated performance]

CD 3 - Symphony #2. Klemperer/Philharmonia (studio version), 1961

CD 4 - Three Early Songs. Ian Bostridge/A. Pappano (piano), 2010
14 "Lieder & Gesaenge". Sung by var. big names from EMI catalog.
Symphony #3, Mvt. 1. Rattle/C.B.S.O./Birgirt Remmert (mezzo), 1997

CD 5 - Sym. #3, Mvts. II - VI. Rattle/CBSO.
"Blumine". P. Jarvi/Frankfurt R.S.O., 2009 [review here (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/reviewed-not-necessarily-recommended_30.html)]

CD 6 - Sym. #4. Horenstein/L.P.O./M. Price (sop), 1970

CD 7 - Sym. #5. K. Tennstedt/L.P.O. - "live", 1988

CD 8 - "Kindertotenlieder". K. Ferrier/B. Walter/V.P.O., 1949 [Even more aged classic]
"Five Ruckert Lieder". J. Baker/Barbirolli/New Phil., 1969
Sym. #6, Mvt. I. J. Barbirolli/New Philharmonia, 1967 [one of the best performances of that symphony]

CD 9 - Sym. #6, Mvts. II - IV. Barbirolli/New Phil., 1967

CD 10 - Sym. #7. Rattle/C.B.S.O., 1991 (Aldeburgh Festival) [so/so]

CD 11 - "Des Knaben Wunderhorn". Schwarzkopf/Fischer-Dieskau/G.Szell/L.S.O., 1968 [classic]
Sym. #8, Part I. Tennstedt/L.P.O., 1986

CD 12 - Sym. #8, Part II. Tennstedt/L.P.O., 1986 [classic let-down]

CD 13 - "Das Lied von der Erde". C. Ludwig/Wunderlich/Klemperer/Phil., 1966 [classic]

CD 14 - Sym. #9. Barbirolli/Berlin Phil., 1964 [fine, but not at the level of his 6th, esp. compared to competition]

CD 15 - Sym. #10. S. Rattle/Berlin Phil., 1999 [Many prefer his CoBSO Cooke II version. Not my favorite, but I find it competitive.]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 09, 2012, 01:58:53 PM
Quote from: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 01:55:59 PM
Thanks for that!
Is this the Bernstein set?
Reviews are pretty good!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CMHNZEMRL._SS400_.jpg)

Yes, this is it!

I am sure that nearly everyone here will agree that these are classic performances. Bernstein had a very special take on Mahler which anyone who listens to Mahler needs to hear. So, this would be a very good choice! ;)

Glad to see that you are so enthuastic about diving into the music of Mahler! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 09, 2012, 02:04:34 PM
Here's some Mahler stuff to read, if you have too much time.

Discusses complete cycles and individual performances.
Part 1 is usually more general comments; part 2 includes recommendations. (Always very much a personal matter in Mahler, though some amount of common ground can be found among most Mahlerites.

Intro 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=518

Intro 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=745

M1
part 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1000
part 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1037

M2
part 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1063
part 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1103

M3
part 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1120
part 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1138

M4
part 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1157
part 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1170
part 3
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192

M5
part 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1218
part 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1230

M6
part 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1254
part 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1291
part 3
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1307

M7
part 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1338
part 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1351

M8
part 1
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1375
part 2
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1382

DLVDE
part 1
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde_01.html
part 2
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde.html

M9
part 1
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-1.html
part 2
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html

M10
part 1
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html
part 2
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-2.html







Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 09, 2012, 02:08:04 PM
Quote from: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 01:55:59 PM
Reviews are pretty good!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CMHNZEMRL._SS400_.jpg)

Bernstein's Mahler Symphonies Cycle is almost near perfection, it contains many of the most thrilling, beautiful performances of Mahler's works I've ever heard. Same speech for Das Lied von der Erde, such a powerful, brilliant interpretation. I agree you can't certainly get wrong with this set. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 02:21:06 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 09, 2012, 01:58:53 PM
Yes, this is it!

I am sure that nearly everyone here will agree that these are classic performances. Bernstein had a very special take on Mahler which anyone who listens to Mahler needs to hear. So, this would be a very good choice! ;)

Glad to see that you are so enthuastic about diving into the music of Mahler! :)
From what i gather,some people find it difficult to get into Mahler's music straight away.
He seems to be a composer that grows on people (if at all) then they are a commited admirer of him and his work.
I've only heard smphony No4 and No5 but i do like what i've heard so far.
I don't know how far removed Tchaikovsky,Bach and Debussy (I've got recordings of these composers) are from Mahler but i like all i've heard so far.
I'm very,very new to this kind of music so i can easily get lost in the complexities of it but i appreciate the help from fellow forumers! ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 09, 2012, 02:04:34 PM
Here's some Mahler stuff to read, if you have too much time.

Discusses complete cycles and individual performances.
Part 1 is usually more general comments; part 2 includes recommendations. (Always very much a personal matter in Mahler, though some amount of common ground can be found among most Mahlerites.

Wow!!!!! :o
I'll have to take a month off work to read that! ??? Ha-Ha!! :D
Thanks for the links!! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 02:29:02 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 09, 2012, 02:08:04 PM
Bernstein's Mahler Symphonies Cycle is almost near perfection, it contains many of the most thrilling, beautiful performances of Mahler's works I've ever heard. Same speech for Das Lied von der Erde, such a powerful, brilliant interpretation. I agree you can't certainly get wrong with this set. ;D
Thanks for the advice Lisztianwagner!!
If you all recommend it,it must be good!! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 09, 2012, 02:41:32 PM
Quote from: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 02:24:32 PM
Wow!!!!! :o
I'll have to take a month off work to read that! ??? Ha-Ha!! :D
Thanks for the links!! :D

More than half of the links in your quote (which is to say: mine, before I just altered them) are faulty. Adjusted links in my original post above.
Graphics unfortunately missing from the WETA column...  :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 03:06:00 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 09, 2012, 02:41:32 PM
More than half of the links in your quote (which is to say: mine, before I just altered them) are faulty. Adjusted links in my original post above.
Graphics unfortunately missing from the WETA column...  :(
Ok, no problem!
Still plenty of reading stiil to browse through! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on April 09, 2012, 06:07:07 PM
Quote from: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 01:55:59 PMThanks for that!
Is this the Bernstein set?
Reviews are pretty good!

Are you a Bernstein Booster?

Once again I am persuaded that Madaboutmahler and Lisztianwagner are pretty much the same person ;)


Quote from: jlaurson on April 09, 2012, 01:57:56 PM
Symphony #3, Mvt. 1. Rattle/C.B.S.O./Birgirt Remmert (mezzo), 1997

You forgot to rate this one. I think it's good. Certainly has great sound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 09, 2012, 06:19:02 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 09, 2012, 06:07:07 PM
Are you a Bernstein Booster?

Once again I am persuaded that Madaboutmahler and Lisztianwagner are pretty much the same person ;)


You forgot to rate this one. I think it's good. Certainly has great sound.

...whereas (again, chaconne a son gout obviously applies here)  I think Rattle's is the worst performance of the 3rd I've heard.  He manages to make everything boring....

I do think Jens hit the mark in comparing the EMI and DG boxes--EMI has some historically interesting performances, but DG has the better ones, overall.  And the EMI box depends heavily on Rattle, so if you don't like Rattle,  you'll be in trouble.  (To be clear, that Third is the only Rattle Mahler performance I don't like.)  I think the DG box is worth the price being asked, actually, although of course it's a good deal more than I paid when it came out, and that fifty quid difference from the EMI set does make the EMI set a very rational choice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on April 09, 2012, 08:27:03 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 09, 2012, 06:19:02 PM...whereas (again, chaconne a son gout obviously applies here)  I think Rattle's is the worst performance of the 3rd I've heard.  He manages to make everything boring....

I do think Jens hit the mark in comparing the EMI and DG boxes--EMI has some historically interesting performances, but DG has the better ones, overall.  And the EMI box depends heavily on Rattle, so if you don't like Rattle,  you'll be in trouble.  (To be clear, that Third is the only Rattle Mahler performance I don't like.)  I think the DG box is worth the price being asked, actually, although of course it's a good deal more than I paid when it came out, and that fifty quid difference from the EMI set does make the EMI set a very rational choice.

I'd say both the boxes (actually I think there are two slightly different DG boxes) are a mixed bunch, and unless you're an absolute beginner, you'd be better off buying recordings individually.

Re Rattle, his 3rd is the only one of his Bournemouth Mahler recordings I like (though 8 has its moments). For a really boring 3rd, you can't beat Bertini! That's the only one that has me crying "Oh God" and switching it off. He just drags out the tempos beyond (my) endurance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 09, 2012, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 09, 2012, 08:27:03 PM
I'd say both the boxes (actually I think there are two slightly different DG boxes) are a mixed bunch, and unless you're an absolute beginner, you'd be better off buying recordings individually.

Re Rattle, his 3rd is the only one of his Bournemouth Mahler recordings I like (though 8 has its moments). For a really boring 3rd, you can't beat Bertini! That's the only one that has me crying "Oh God" and switching it off. He just drags out the tempos beyond (my) endurance.

DG issued a symphonies only box called "The People's Mahler"  which ended being mostly DG best sellers that would mostly likely appeal only to a "beginner" in Mahler.  I bought both boxes, and some of them duplicated recordings I have, but the largest batch of duplications was in the EMI box. 

But you're probably right about the invidivual recordings, but the box is also good for a completist.  How many times have Mahler's early early songs been recorded?  And while not lacking the catalog, recordings of Klagende Lied and the Piano Quartet movement are not exactly numerous.  (And both sets scant Mahler's contribution to Die Drie Pintos, and make no attempt to cover his transcriptions of otherr composers--no Bach Suite, for instance.)

As for Bertini's Third--I don't remember it being that bad.  But the Third is my least favorite Mahler, and I seem to remember Bertini's timing were on the long side.   My favorites to date in the Third are Zinman and Gergiev.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on April 09, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 09, 2012, 06:07:07 PM
Once again I am persuaded that Madaboutmahler and Lisztianwagner are pretty much the same person ;)

For the first few days I assumed that MI, m-a-m and LW were one and the same person.

(Sheff)Mark,
          I haven't gone through the links that Jens has provided, so I don't know if he's already mentioned it there, but a couple of years ago, the Bernstein cycle from DG was re-(re-re-?)released, and it's much cheaper than the earlier incarnation.

[asin]B0033QC0WY[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 10, 2012, 12:11:53 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on April 09, 2012, 06:07:07 PM
Once again I am persuaded that Madaboutmahler and Lisztianwagner are pretty much the same person ;)
Quote from: Opus106 on April 09, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
For the first few days I assumed that MI, m-a-m and LW were one and the same person.

Hahaha, really?? :D

No, Daniel and I are two distinct persons; but that's true that our taste often coincides as we have quite a few favourite composers in common. Gustav Mahler is one of them. ;D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 10, 2012, 03:25:19 AM
Quote from: sheffmark on April 09, 2012, 02:21:06 PM
From what i gather,some people find it difficult to get into Mahler's music straight away.
He seems to be a composer that grows on people (if at all) then they are a commited admirer of him and his work.
I've only heard smphony No4 and No5 but i do like what i've heard so far.
I don't know how far removed Tchaikovsky,Bach and Debussy (I've got recordings of these composers) are from Mahler but i like all i've heard so far.
I'm very,very new to this kind of music so i can easily get lost in the complexities of it but i appreciate the help from fellow forumers! ;)

Yes, some people after many years of listening to music find it hard to enjoy Mahler still. And some people never enjoy Mahler in their listening lives.... so we are the lucky ones! And yes, once you start listening to Mahler, he definitely grows on you. Here is a quote from a short biography about Mahler which I like, which explains it a little more:

'It is hard to think of a composer who arouses equal loyalty. The worship of Mahler amounts almost to a religion... Mahler's music stirs something imbedded in the subconscious and his admirers approach him mystically.'

:D

It is great to hear that you are enjoying Mahler so far. Please continue to update us with how your Mahler journey goes! :)

And yes, the other box set that Navneeth points out is the better option, the same great performances, but cheaper. ;)
Hope you have a nice day, Mark!

Quote from: eyeresist on April 09, 2012, 06:07:07 PM
Are you a Bernstein Booster?

Once again I am persuaded that Madaboutmahler and Lisztianwagner are pretty much the same person ;)
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 10, 2012, 12:11:53 AM
Hahaha, really?? :D

No, Daniel and I are two distinct persons; but that's true that our taste often coincides as we have quite a few favourite composers in common. Gustav Mahler is one of them. ;D

haha :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2012, 03:39:06 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on April 09, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
[asin]B0033QC0WY[/asin]

That is a wonderfully amusing cover!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on April 10, 2012, 05:29:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 10, 2012, 03:39:06 AM
That is a wonderfully amusing cover!

Triple-X-L all the way!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 10, 2012, 05:35:01 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 10, 2012, 03:25:19 AM


And yes, the other box set that Navneeth points out is the better option, the same great performances, but cheaper. ;)


The newer box set doesn't have everything in the earlier more expensive set--it leaves out the song cycles including DLvdE;  you'll need to buy those as individual CDs, although even with that supplement,  it will come out less expensive.    The three shorter song cycles, sung by Thomas Hampson,  among which is what I think of as the best performance of the Ruckert Lieder in existence,  are part of the complete DG box we were discussing yesterday. (Come to think of it, I don't have the Wunderhorn performance from that cycle, and have no idea about its availability.  Must check into it.)   Most people think highly of the DLvdE, which features King and Fischer Dieskau, and I am among them.

There is a third alternative for the DG Bernstein:  a set of three smaller boxes in DG's "Leonard Bernstein Collector's Edition, which split more or less into early, middle and late Mahler,  and contain all the symphonies and song cycles.  It's been some time since I checked on availability and pricing (like two or three years ago), but at that time at least you could get the three smaller boxes for slightly less than the complete bigger box.

And of course that still leaves you with the need to acquire at some point Bernstein's first Mahler cycle, now on Sony (available as a budget box), and the DG/Unitel DVD cycle, which presents yet another series of performances given about ten years before those on the DG CD cycle.

And finally, there's a  recording of the Ninth which Bernstein made with the Berlin Philharmonic--famous as the only time he conducted that orchestra--also on DG and which I think is ruined by audience noise.

Are there any other individual Bernstein Mahler recordings floating around ?

ETA--almost forgot that at point prior to issuing the FedEx covered box,  DG issued a symphonies only box set at some point.  No idea of its availability.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 10, 2012, 05:55:42 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 10, 2012, 05:35:01 PM
The newer box set doesn't have everything in the earlier more expensive set--it leaves out the song cycles including DLvdE;  you'll need to buy those as individual CDs, although even with that supplement,  it will come out less expensive.    The three shorter song cycles, sung by Thomas Hampson,  among which is what I think of as the best performance of the Ruckert Lieder in existence,  are part of the complete DG box we were discussing yesterday. (Come to think of it, I don't have the Wunderhorn performance from that cycle, and have no idea about its availability.  Must check into it.)   Most people think highly of the DLvdE, which features King and Fischer Dieskau, and I am among them.

There is a third alternative for the DG Bernstein:  a set of three smaller boxes in DG's "Leonard Bernstein Collector's Edition, which split more or less into early, middle and late Mahler,  and contain all the symphonies and song cycles.  It's been some time since I checked on availability and pricing (like two or three years ago), but at that time at least you could get the three smaller boxes for slightly less than the complete bigger box.

And of course that still leaves you with the need to acquire at some point Bernstein's first Mahler cycle, now on Sony (available as a budget box), and the DG/Unitel DVD cycle, which presents yet another series of performances given about ten years before those on the DG CD cycle.

And finally, there's a  recording of the Ninth which Bernstein made with the Berlin Philharmonic--famous as the only time he conducted that orchestra--also on DG and which I think is ruined by audience noise.

Are there any other individual Bernstein Mahler recordings floating around ?

ETA--almost forgot that at point prior to issuing the FedEx covered box,  DG issued a symphonies only box set at some point.  No idea of its availability.

The Bernstein Ninth with Berlin is usually berated for the trombone section falling asleep and entering wildly late. Audience noise is less a problem. That flub, though massive by modern performance standards (the BPh wasn't very used to Mahler then... Barbirolli had basically (re) introduced Mahler to them), is overrated. As is the performance. (The only time Karajan allowed Bernstein to conduct/record 'his' BPh.)

The DVD cycle is very skippable, too... Like the DG CD cycle, but less of everything, including quality. There are more important Mahler performances to be had before one needs a third Bernstein cycle.

DLvdE with King & FD is da bomb, though. (And that work - never scrutinized and edited by Mahler, due to untimely death - can use all the help it can get.)

You should't get the idea that Bernstein's is the only way to do Mahler, though. He is, however, emblematic of one very important aspect of the school of Mahler-conducting: Either you re-compose the music as you conduct it (as did Bernstein, who might have felt he was the second coming of Mahler), or you 'just play the notes'*. The first two cycles ever made (Kubelik and Bernstein/New York) not only outline that dual-alternative approach, they still represent some of the best examples ever entered into the increasingly competitive Mahler-race. Especially Kubelik is a genius in the way he can 'leave the notes alone', yet never make anything sound boring.

That said, I wouldn't try to discover Mahler by way of boxed set at all... I would do it one-symphony-at-a-time... very slowly. Otherwise the intensity doesn't come across as easily... and Mahler needs to that to work his devious, unhealthy magic. (Unhealthy? This is why: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg593033.html#msg593033 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg593033.html#msg593033))

Quote*he questions are for Thielemann and include: "What's your relationship with Mahler"? "Why do you ask that?" CT shoots back, moodily. "Uh, oh... professional curiosity?" stumbles the journalist half cowed, half defiant. "Well, I have a troubled relationship with Mahler's music. But then you knew that, which is why you asked, no?" Touché. But what follows changes the mood in the room completely. "Mahler's music lends itself most to those conductors" Thielemann reflects, "who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement. That doesn't exactly accommodate my conducting style; I've not been terribly successful at that yet. The music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve, eventually. Not always to enhance something. I'm currently trying to wean myself off that in Strauss, actually..." Thielemann thus continues a solid three minutes on his fallibility as a conductor in Mahler, about trying to break habits and improving—a touching, beautifully honest moment... from
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 10, 2012, 06:12:22 PM
1) DG issued a single DVD with one movement from each of the symphonies (no song cycles or DLvdE) that might make a decent stand in for the entire set.
2) Since I discovered Mahler one work at a time, in a very scattered fashion,  I can't disagree that one at a time is the way to go.  But if there is a "beginner's boxset",  I'd suggest Inbal.  If not Inbal, then probably anyone except Bernstein--and the first (Sony) Bernstein cycle before the DG cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 10, 2012, 07:00:32 PM
Allow me to suggest another set of older recordings, but still with great sound:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519-xbo3nKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2012, 03:20:58 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 10, 2012, 05:55:42 PM
The Bernstein Ninth with Berlin is usually berated for the trombone section falling asleep and entering wildly late.

Just the sort of [in]activity which preserves the trombonists' notoriety. Which is how they like it.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on April 15, 2012, 12:13:36 PM
12 things that Daniel should not do with his hammer :

http://youtu.be/qTloV4Bn10I (http://youtu.be/qTloV4Bn10I)

;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on April 15, 2012, 12:18:28 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on April 15, 2012, 12:13:36 PM
12 things that Daniel should not do with his hammer :

http://youtu.be/qTloV4Bn10I (http://youtu.be/qTloV4Bn10I)

;D

:P

haha  ;D I love that video, it has made me laugh every time I have seen it! :D
Highly recommended to anyone who has not seen it yet! Thanks for sharing, Olivier! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on April 16, 2012, 09:20:00 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/?cfomd80b712810u

A performance of No. 1 by the RCO with Bernstein, from '87 -- the only recording that's vanished from http://kco.radio4.nl/?lang=en.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2012, 04:34:10 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 05, 2012, 08:14:51 AM
Friday, November 16, 2012 at 8 p.m.
Saturday, November 17, 2012 at 8 p.m.
MAHLER           Symphony No. 3


I have assumed that they'll be doing the same works in Cleveland around that time, but digging through their website I couldn't find any mention of their plans for the 2012/3 season in Cleveland.

The Cleveland's 2012/13 season was announced this week. The opening concert will be the Mahler Third, Sep 20 & 22. I'm planning on camping out at my mother's for nine months  ;D  It looks to be a great season, my kind of season:

Mahler 1 - Dohnányi
Mahler 3 - Welser-Möst
Mahler 7 - Boulez
Shostakovich 10 - Welser-Möst
Shostakovich VC1 - Zimmerman/Welser-Möst
Tchaikovsky PC2 - Ohlsson/Welser-Möst
Nielsen 3 -Blomstedt  :o
Beethoven 7 - Blomstedt
Prokofiev Alexander Nevsky - Steinberg
Bartok Dance Suite - Welser-Möst
Prokofiev 6 - Noseda
Handel Te Deum - Koopman
Haydn 45 - Koopman
Mozart PCs 17 & 25 - Uchida
Dvorak 6 - Welser-Möst


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 22, 2012, 04:40:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2012, 04:34:10 AM
The Cleveland's 2012/13 season was announced this week. The opening concert will be the Mahler Third, Sep 20 & 22. I'm planning on camping out at my mother's for nine months  ;D  It looks to be a great season, my kind of season:

Mahler 1 - Dohnányi
Mahler 3 - Welser-Möst
Mahler 7 - Boulez

Hmm... just back from an M3 last night. (Fischer Ivan, Munich Phil.) One of the less disappointing M3rds I've heard in a while... very possibly the best second movement I've heard. But the finale always sets such impossibly high expectations, that it is hard not to be let down.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 22, 2012, 06:25:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2012, 04:34:10 AM
The Cleveland's 2012/13 season was announced this week. The opening concert will be the Mahler Third, Sep 20 & 22. I'm planning on camping out at my mother's for nine months  ;D  It looks to be a great season, my kind of season:
Funny. The opening concert of the Orlando Phil will also be Mahler's 3rd, on Sep.29.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 22, 2012, 02:14:04 PM


Dip Your Ears, No. 115 (Manfred Honeck and Mahler)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/04/manfred-honeck-and-mahler.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/04/manfred-honeck-and-mahler.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 22, 2012, 03:30:35 PM




Ionarts-at-Large: Fischer Iván's Touch for Mahler

(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Mahler_cndctng_Sy3_560banner.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/04/ionarts-at-large-fischer-ivans-touch.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/04/ionarts-at-large-fischer-ivans-touch.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 23, 2012, 02:03:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 22, 2012, 02:14:04 PM
Dip Your Ears, No. 115 (Manfred Honeck and Mahler)

I have the four that have been released so far (1, 3, 4, 5). The only disappointment was 5 (but that symphony is always hard to please me). I agree with you about 1, and 4 too was similarly impressive.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on April 27, 2012, 08:29:26 PM
Okay, which of you wise guys rewrote the Wikipedia page for Mahler's Tenth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._10_%28Mahler%29)? Not funny! I mean... it is funny... okay it's really funny.

EDIT: Wow, the page has already been restored. Wikipedia is REALLY good at stopping vandalism. Here's the "reinterpreted" version. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Symphony_No._10_%28Mahler%29&oldid=489559746)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on April 29, 2012, 07:09:00 PM
Quote from: Brian on April 27, 2012, 08:29:26 PMOkay, which of you wise guys rewrote the Wikipedia page for Mahler's Tenth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._10_%28Mahler%29)? Not funny! I mean... it is funny... okay it's really funny.
I didn't think it was funny.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on April 30, 2012, 11:28:17 AM
He dedicated his 69th symphony to Alma?

Giggity.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2012, 01:36:36 PM
New Mahler!
(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Haitink_Mahler_9_BRSO_ionarts.png)
G.Mahler,
Symphony No.9
Bernard Haitink / BRSO
BR Klassik 900113 (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0081QU2Q2/goodmusicguidede-21)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0081QU2Q2/goodmusicguidede-21)


Not released outside Germany yet, linked accordingly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 09, 2012, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2012, 04:34:10 AM
The Cleveland's 2012/13 season was announced this week. The opening concert will be the Mahler Third, Sep 20 & 22. I'm planning on camping out at my mother's for nine months  ;D  It looks to be a great season, my kind of season:

Mahler 1 - Dohnányi
Mahler 3 - Welser-Möst
Mahler 7 - Boulez
Shostakovich 10 - Welser-Möst
Shostakovich VC1 - Zimmerman/Welser-Möst
Tchaikovsky PC2 - Ohlsson/Welser-Möst
Nielsen 3 -Blomstedt  :o
Beethoven 7 - Blomstedt
Prokofiev Alexander Nevsky - Steinberg
Bartok Dance Suite - Welser-Möst
Prokofiev 6 - Noseda
Handel Te Deum - Koopman
Haydn 45 - Koopman
Mozart PCs 17 & 25 - Uchida
Dvorak 6 - Welser-Möst


Sarge

Wow, I need to move to Cleveland. 10 pieces in there I would easily pay good money to see live.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on May 09, 2012, 06:22:57 PM
Nostalgia! It was the Cleveland Orchestra who played the Shostakovich Tenth, first ever I heard it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 09, 2012, 06:28:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2012, 04:34:10 AM
The Cleveland's 2012/13 season was announced this week. The opening concert will be the Mahler Third, Sep 20 & 22. I'm planning on camping out at my mother's for nine months  ;D  It looks to be a great season, my kind of season:

Mahler 1 - Dohnányi
Mahler 3 - Welser-Möst
Mahler 7 - Boulez
Shostakovich 10 - Welser-Möst
Shostakovich VC1 - Zimmerman/Welser-Möst
Tchaikovsky PC2 - Ohlsson/Welser-Möst
Nielsen 3 -Blomstedt  :o
Beethoven 7 - Blomstedt
Prokofiev Alexander Nevsky - Steinberg
Bartok Dance Suite - Welser-Möst
Prokofiev 6 - Noseda
Handel Te Deum - Koopman
Haydn 45 - Koopman
Mozart PCs 17 & 25 - Uchida
Dvorak 6 - Welser-Möst


Sarge

Mein Gott what an extraordinary schedule, and what great artists coming in, too. I want to see all those things, except possibly Christoph D.'s Mahler 1; he really let me down in London with "same old, same old" interpretations of Schubert, Mozart, and Beethoven. Also... can't help thinking that's William Steinberg coming in for Nevsky.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 09, 2012, 07:02:59 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 09, 2012, 06:28:18 PMAlso... can't help thinking that's William Steinberg coming in for Nevsky.

Ol' blue eyes is back!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 12:23:12 PM
I'm really excited to announce this but I'm digging Mahler's music a lot right now. I know I'll need to spend a lot more time with the music, because it has been so long since I've had a 'Mahler phase,' but I plan on making his music one of my top priorities right now. The reason being is because I think he was one of the most important and innovative composers of the late 19th/early 20th Century. His influence is heard in so many other composers and it just seems like people can't get enough of his music these days with conductors churning out one recording after another. His music is pretty much standard repertoire now it seems. I'm revisiting M7 right now and it's certainly as good, if not better, than I remembered. Beautiful, powerful music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 02:03:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 12:23:12 PM
I'm really excited to announce this but I'm digging Mahler's music a lot right now. I know I'll need to spend a lot more time with the music, because it has been so long since I've had a 'Mahler phase,' but I plan on making his music one of my top priorities right now. The reason being is because I think he was one of the most important and innovative composers of the late 19th/early 20th Century. His influence is heard in so many other composers and it just seems like people can't get enough of his music these days with conductors churning out one recording after another. His music is pretty much standard repertoire now it seems. I'm revisiting M7 right now and it's certainly as good, if not better, than I remembered. Beautiful, powerful music.

Really glad to hear this, John! I look forward to hearing about your Mahler journey! Keep us posted! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:05:34 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 02:03:09 PM
Really glad to hear this, John! I look forward to hearing about your Mahler journey! Keep us posted! :)

I'm listening to the 3rd right now with Haitink and the RCO. Very good! This first movement is like one huge symphonic poem. :) Wunderbar!!! 8)

Edit: Checkout my new avatar, Daniel. :) Cool, huh? Mahler with a moustache.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:05:34 PM
I'm listening to the 3rd right now with Haitink and the RCO. Very good! This first movement is like one huge symphonic poem. :) Wunderbar!!! 8)

Oh, certainly, the first movement is absolutely amazing! Glad to hear you are enjoying it, John! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:10:15 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 02:07:38 PM
Oh, certainly, the first movement is absolutely amazing! Glad to hear you are enjoying it, John! :)

I really am. My Dad was surprised when he heard I wanted to add all of that Mahler on one of my iPods. His exact words were "Really? You must be delirious?" What he didn't know, or shall I say remember, is that I had a Mahler phase several years ago.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:12:36 PM
Just for clarification, here's what I put on my iPod:

Hatink set
Kubelik set
Boulez recordings
Rattle set
Bertini set
Chailly set
Tennstedt set
Abbado set
Solti set

Sets I didn't put on (yet): Inbal (Brilliant Classics), Gielen (Hanssler), Bernstein (Sony, DG), Zinman (RCA), Levine (partial set), Maazel (Sony), Neumann (Supraphon), Svetlanov (Warner), Sinopoli (DG)

My Dad also owns a ton of individual recordings, which most of them he hasn't ripped to iTunes yet, so there's a lot there to choose from as well. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 02:16:51 PM
haha - yes, good profile picture choice, John!

I really am so very pleased to hear this, John! And I hope that you continue to enjoy your journey! Many great sets you put on your ipod. As I have mentioned many times, I particularly love the Solti, I think he hasa thrilling way with Mahler which works especially well in symphonies such as no.1-7. I still have quite a few more cycles to listen to, including Sinopoli, Tennstedt and Bertini on the listening pile which I am all looking forward to! Various single symphony recordings too, including some from Ivan Fischer, MTT etc. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 16, 2012, 02:18:07 PM
By the way, why haven't you uploaded the Karajan performances on your iPod either? Did you want just complete cycles?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:22:06 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 02:16:51 PM
haha - yes, good profile picture choice, John!

I really am so very pleased to hear this, John! And I hope that you continue to enjoy your journey! Many great sets you put on your ipod. As I have mentioned many times, I particularly love the Solti, I think he hasa thrilling way with Mahler which works especially well in symphonies such as no.1-7. I still have quite a few more cycles to listen to, including Sinopoli, Tennstedt and Bertini on the listening pile which I am all looking forward to! Various single symphony recordings too, including some from Ivan Fischer, MTT etc. :)

Yes, I do remember enjoying Solti's cycle quite a bit. He does has an emotional way with Mahler. I don't think I've heard any of Sinopoli's Mahler performances. My Dad owns all of those as well but not as a set but as individual releases. Tennstedt is very intense, Daniel. You'll enjoy his Mahler a lot I think. I'm still gaga for his 5th and 6th. These are rollercoaster performances for sure --- so thrilling.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:24:01 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 16, 2012, 02:18:07 PM
By the way, why haven't you uploaded the Karajan performances on your iPod either? Did you want just complete cycles?

I haven't gotten to the single releases yet, Ilaria. In due time, I have a ton to listen to right now. Many of these sets I have heard before, but it's been so long since I've listened to them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 02:27:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:22:06 PM
Yes, I do remember enjoying Solti's cycle quite a bit. He does has an emotional way with Mahler. I don't think I've heard any of Sinopoli's Mahler performances. My Dad owns all of those as well but not as a set but as individual releases. Tennstedt is very intense, Daniel. You'll enjoy his Mahler a lot I think. I'm still gaga for his 5th and 6th. These are rollercoaster performances for sure --- so thrilling.

Certainly! :)
I had a single release of Sinopoli's 8th. I have to say that this is my personal favourite 8th I have heard, I think Sinopoli really understand the score. A very moving performance! So I am very excited to hear the whole cycle!
Yes, from what I have heard, the Tennstedt sounds absolutely great. I have heard a few excerpts from his 3rd and 6th, both of which sounded outstanding. I look forward to hearing those!

Keep us updated, John! :) Again, so pleasing to hear! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:32:40 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 16, 2012, 02:27:10 PM
Certainly! :)
I had a single release of Sinopoli's 8th. I have to say that this is my personal favourite 8th I have heard, I think Sinopoli really understand the score. A very moving performance! So I am very excited to hear the whole cycle!
Yes, from what I have heard, the Tennstedt sounds absolutely great. I have heard a few excerpts from his 3rd and 6th, both of which sounded outstanding. I look forward to hearing those!

Keep us updated, John! :) Again, so pleasing to hear! :)

One of the best 8th performances I've heard was, believe it or not, Boulez's. I do have a soft spot for Solti's and Tennstedt's. I need to hear Sinopoli's then.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 16, 2012, 02:38:45 PM
No problem, John, enjoy those ones you put on! The Solti is absolutely beautiful, thrilling; and so is also the Chailly (althought his 6th symphony has a bit too slow tempo). :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:42:31 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 16, 2012, 02:38:45 PM
No problem, John, enjoy those ones you out on! The Solti is absolutely beautiful, thrilling; and so is also the Chailly (althought his 6th symphony has a bit too slow tempo). :)

Chailly's 3rd is one of the best on record IMHO. I haven't been impressed by this symphony until I heard this Chailly performance. He convinced me of it's merit and musical worth. As for the 5th, that's a long, and deep subject, as this is one Mahler symphony I've heard at least 20 different performances of. The 6th, as I mentioned in a post above, I favor Tennstedt's a lot. Another 3rd performance that I remember enjoying was Salonen's. Fantastic!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 04:25:09 PM
I'm listening to Symphony No. 6 right now with Solti conducting the CSO. Such an amazing performance. Got to love that CSO brass!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 05:19:25 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 07:24:19 AM
Boulez slated to record the Eighth, eh?

Just as long as he doesn't touch Shostakovich, whom he famously derided as "third-pressing Mahler"  ;D

Who was "second-pressing Mahler" then?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
I've been keeping a Mahler listening log in a journal and so far today I have listened to:

Symphony No. 7 - Simon Rattle, CBSO, EMI
Symphony No. 3 - Bernard Haitink, RCO, Philips
Symphony No. 6 - Georg Solti, CSO, Decca
Symphony No. 4 - Claudio Abbado, Vienna Philharmonic, DG
Symphony No. 9 - Gary Bertini, Cologne Radio Symphony, EMI

Tomorrow I might take a little break and resume back on Friday.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 07:37:53 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 12:23:12 PMI'm revisiting M7 right now and it's certainly as good, if not better, than I remembered. Beautiful, powerful music.

Welcome back to the prodigal! Which version are you listening to? I always recommend Tennstedt for this one. (His 3 and DLvdE are also tops.)
EDIT: Ah, I see it was the Rattle - not my favourite.

From your iPod selection, I'd also highlight Bertini's 8 as a "sleeper" (I haven't heard Sinopoli yet).


Mahler with moustache makes me think of Inspector Clouseau :(  "Do you have for me the massage?"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 07:53:48 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 07:37:53 PM
Welcome back to the prodigal! Which version are you listening to? I always recommend Tennstedt for this one. (His 3 and DLvdE are also tops.)
EDIT: Ah, I see it was the Rattle - not my favourite.

From your iPod selection, I'd also highlight Bertini's 8 as a "sleeper" (I haven't heard Sinopoli yet).


Mahler with moustache makes me think of Inspector Clouseau :(  "Do you have for me the massage?"

I've really always admired Mahler's music. I just like to give our friend, Daniel (madaboutmahler), a hard time about him. :D I went through a huge Mahler phase a couple of years ago. I think he deserves all the compliments and recordings he can get! His music is of another world, but there's something so earthbound about this music that I feel a strong connection to it. It seems to me that a lot of his music is about human suffering and I relate to this because I've been an outcast my entire life and it certainly wasn't by choice, but now it certainly is and I'm loving every minute of it. :D But seriously, I relate to Mahler's music for it's poetic expression and it's heartfelt honesty. Every note that came from him was important and crucial. There's nothing misplaced in a Mahler symphony IMHO.

Anyway, I'm not too concerned with what's the best of this or that, because we'll all have our favorites. I've never met two Mahler fans that could agree on anything anyway, so there you have it. 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 08:17:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 07:53:48 PMHis music is of another world, but there's something so earthbound about this music that I feel a strong connection to it. It seems to me that a lot of his music is about human suffering and I relate to this because I've been an outcast my entire life and it certainly wasn't by choice, but now it certainly is and I'm loving every minute of it. :D But seriously, I relate to Mahler's music for it's poetic expression and it's heartfelt honesty. Every note that came from him was important and crucial. There's nothing misplaced in a Mahler symphony IMHO.

Welcome to GMG - we're all outsiders now!

Yes, I think Mahler came closer than anyone to including the whole world in his symphonies, as he said he wanted to do. There's something for everyone there, if they're prepared to listen.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 08:17:30 PMYes, I think Mahler came closer than anyone to including the whole world in his symphonies, as he said he wanted to do. There's something for everyone there, if they're prepared to listen.

Well, certainly. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on May 16, 2012, 09:09:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:05:34 PM
Edit: Checkout my new avatar, Daniel. :) Cool, huh? Mahler with a moustache.

Okay, so I'll have to mistake your posts for Hadi's until your Villa-Lobos phase starts anew. :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 09:21:16 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on May 16, 2012, 09:09:37 PM
Okay, so I'll have to mistake your posts for Hadi's until your Villa-Lobos phase starts anew. :-\

I'm leaving the Mahler avatar up for awhile now just to confuse you...hahahaha (in sinister laughter). >:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 01:46:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:42:31 PM
Chailly's 3rd is one of the best on record IMHO. I haven't been impressed by this symphony until I heard this Chailly performance. He convinced me of it's merit and musical worth. As for the 5th, that's a long, and deep subject, as this is one Mahler symphony I've heard at least 20 different performances of. The 6th, as I mentioned in a post above, I favor Tennstedt's a lot. Another 3rd performance that I remember enjoying was Salonen's. Fantastic!

Yes, Chailly's 3rd is absolutely remarkable, such a brilliant, beautiful performance. His complete cycles was the latest one I listened to and I extremely enjoyed it; from No.1 to No.5, plus No.7 and No.9, the symphonies are one better than the other, absolutely thrilling and powerful. The 6th is very fine and well played, with a passionate, vibrant Alma Theme, but it lacks energy in the march because of the tempo chosen. I think the best recording of Chailly's set-box is definitely the 5th symphony.
About No.6, my favourites are the Solti, the Bernstein and the Karajan. I also listened to Tennstedt's, I agree it's excellent; same speech for Haitink's.

I saw you were going to listen to Solti No.6, Haitink No.3 and Abbado No.4, wonderful choices! ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 08:00:37 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 01:46:08 AM
Yes, Chailly's 3rd is absolutely remarkable, such a brilliant, beautiful performance. His complete cycles was the latest one I listened to and I extremely enjoyed it; from No.1 to No.5, plus No.7 and No.9, the symphonies are one better than the other, absolutely thrilling and powerful. The 6th is very fine and well played, with a passionate, vibrant Alma Theme, but it lacks energy in the march because of the tempo chosen. I think the best recording of Chailly's set-box is definitely the 5th symphony.
About No.6, my favourites are the Solti, the Bernstein and the Karajan. I also listened to Tennstedt's, I agree it's excellent; same speech for Haitink's.

I saw you were going to listen to Solti No.6, Haitink No.3 and Abbado No.4, wonderful choices! ;D

I can't say Chailly's 5th has impressed me all that much. People seem to think highly of this performance but I don't remember anything remarkable about it really. My favorite 5ths, right now, are Barshai and Abbado (live CSO performance).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 17, 2012, 08:12:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:42:31 PM
Chailly's 3rd is one of the best on record IMHO.
Yep.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 08:31:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 08:00:37 AM
I can't say Chailly's 5th has impressed me all that much. People seem to think highly of this performance but I don't remember anything remarkable about it really. My favorite 5ths, right now, are Barshai and Abbado (live CSO performance).

Well, it's not my favourite version either, it's the Bernstein; but the Chailly is very beautiful and intense too though, incredibly powerful.
I have never listened to Barshai in Mahler, how is his 5th symphony?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 08:40:18 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 08:31:31 AM
Well, it's not my favourite version either, it's the Bernstein; but the Chailly is very beautiful and intense too though, incredibly powerful.
I have never listened to Barshai in Mahler, how is his 5th symphony?

I'm too fond of Bernstein's 5th performances either. I'm very particular in this symphony as it's one of my favorites and like I've mentioned in another post that I've probably heard more performances of the 5th than any other of Mahler's symphonies. The Barshai is excellent. He handles every movement with enthusiasm and a freshness that I don't always hear in other Mahler conductors. Another aspect of Barshai's performance that I find interesting is his choice of orchestra: the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie which is made up of top conservatory students. This orchestra sounds as good as any professional orchestra performing today. Incredible orchestra. Barshai also turned in a great performance of the 10th with his completed version of the symphony. He employs the same orchestra, the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, as he did in the 5th and the results are no less satisfying. Both of these recordings can be bought very cheaply as they've been reissued on Brilliant Classics.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 09:57:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:32:40 PM
I need to hear Sinopoli's then.

You must! :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:42:31 PM
Another 3rd performance that I remember enjoying was Salonen's. Fantastic!

Have not heard that performance yet... instantly interested to!

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
I've been keeping a Mahler listening log in a journal and so far today I have listened to:

Symphony No. 7 - Simon Rattle, CBSO, EMI
Symphony No. 3 - Bernard Haitink, RCO, Philips
Symphony No. 6 - Georg Solti, CSO, Decca
Symphony No. 4 - Claudio Abbado, Vienna Philharmonic, DG
Symphony No. 9 - Gary Bertini, Cologne Radio Symphony, EMI

Tomorrow I might take a little break and resume back on Friday.

Great, John! Looking forward to seeing more from this journal!

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 07:53:48 PM
I've really always admired Mahler's music. I just like to give our friend, Daniel (madaboutmahler), a hard time about him. :D I went through a huge Mahler phase a couple of years ago. I think he deserves all the compliments and recordings he can get! His music is of another world, but there's something so earthbound about this music that I feel a strong connection to it. It seems to me that a lot of his music is about human suffering and I relate to this because I've been an outcast my entire life and it certainly wasn't by choice, but now it certainly is and I'm loving every minute of it. :D But seriously, I relate to Mahler's music for it's poetic expression and it's heartfelt honesty. Every note that came from him was important and crucial. There's nothing misplaced in a Mahler symphony IMHO.

Anyway, I'm not too concerned with what's the best of this or that, because we'll all have our favorites. I've never met two Mahler fans that could agree on anything anyway, so there you have it. 8)

haha - thanks, John! ;) Very glad to hear this! :)

Quote from: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 08:17:30 PM
Yes, I think Mahler came closer than anyone to including the whole world in his symphonies, as he said he wanted to do. There's something for everyone there, if they're prepared to listen.

Excellent statement! :)

So glad that you are enjoying all the Mahler, John, and I am very excited to continue hearing about your Mahler journey! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 10:05:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 08:40:18 AM
I'm too fond of Bernstein's 5th performances either. I'm very particular in this symphony as it's one of my favorites and like I've mentioned in another post that I've probably heard more performances of the 5th than any other of Mahler's symphonies. The Barshai is excellent. He handles every movement with enthusiasm and a freshness that I don't always hear in other Mahler conductors. Another aspect of Barshai's performance that I find interesting is his choice of orchestra: the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie which is made up of top conservatory students. This orchestra sounds as good as any professional orchestra performing today. Incredible orchestra. Barshai also turned in a great performance of the 10th with his completed version of the symphony. He employs the same orchestra, the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, as he did in the 5th and the results are no less satisfying. Both of these recordings can be bought very cheaply as they've been reissued on Brilliant Classics.

I extremely love it too, such haunting and passionate music; its powerful finale always makes me hold my breath. The 5th was the first symphony I've ever listened to (Karajan/BPO) and it was my absolute favourite for a long time before I improved my knowledge of Mahler's music.
Great, that's quite impressive that Barshai has obtained a so excellent result with a non-professional orchestra, I would be really interested in hearing his performance; thank you for the feedback, John. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 10:11:38 AM
Seeing pictures of Mahler with the moustache is rather strange....... ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 10:28:01 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 10:05:08 AM
Great, that's quite impressive that Barshai has obtained a so excellent result with a non-professional orchestra, I would be really interested in hearing his performance; thank you for the feedback, John. :)

My pleasure, Ilaria.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 10:32:53 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 09:57:37 AM
You must! :)

Have not heard that performance yet... instantly interested to!

Great, John! Looking forward to seeing more from this journal!

haha - thanks, John! ;) Very glad to hear this! :)

So glad that you are enjoying all the Mahler, John, and I am very excited to continue hearing about your Mahler journey! :)

And thank you, Daniel, for you enthusiasm for Mahler's music. I owe you much thanks for getting me to listen to Mahler again. I've been pretty busy today (I washed my truck, did some chores around the house), but I was able to finish Mahler's 2nd with Tennstedt and this is a good performance, but my favorite 2nd comes from Bernstein and the NYPO on Sony. I also think very highly of Rattle's with the CBSO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 17, 2012, 10:51:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 16, 2012, 02:12:36 PM
Just for clarification, here's what I put on my iPod:

Hatink set
Kubelik set
Boulez recordings
Rattle set

Bertini set
Chailly set
Tennstedt set

Abbado set
Solti set


Sets I didn't put on (yet): Inbal (Brilliant Classics), Gielen (Hanssler), Bernstein (Sony, DG), Zinman (RCA), Levine (partial set), Maazel (Sony), Neumann (Supraphon), Svetlanov (Warner), Sinopoli (DG)

My Dad also owns a ton of individual recordings, which most of them he hasn't ripped to iTunes yet, so there's a lot there to choose from as well. :)

The current conjunction of avatars makes conversations between John and Daniel not a little like a Monty Python skit or a theater of the absurd, with visions of Mahler talking with himself across the years.

Back to actual topic:
In John's original post,  I bolded the sets which I own as complete sets or complete series (as Zinman), italicized the ones from which I own at least a couple but not the complete series (with Rattle and Boulez being the most complete), and struck through the ones from which I have not a single recording.  Haitink doesn't fall into any of these categories, because I have only one recording (the Fourth) from his Philips set, but have the recordings of 1-3 he did on the CSO Resound label and the 4 he did on the RCO Live label.

Of the complete sets you listed, my favorites at the moment would be Chailly and Inbal, considered as all around cycles--meaning that while any of the individual recordings might be bettered by other individual recordings of the same work from the other cycles,  the quality across the series is high enough to make them good choices as a set. Bernstein on DG is a favorite but not as much as these first two.  Bertini and Tennstedt I'm not sure about yet--complicated in Tennstedt's case by the fact that I have the set which includes both the studio cycle and the live performances of 5-7--the cycle plus, so to speak.   A cycle I like as much as the Chailly and Inbal, but you didn't list there, is the MTT you just got for your father,   and then there's Gergiev, which is a very mixed bag (like Zinman's, in fact, but in different ways).

And I join my voice to those that like Barshai's recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 11:27:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 10:32:53 AM
And thank you, Daniel, for you enthusiasm for Mahler's music. I owe you much thanks for getting me to listen to Mahler again. I've been pretty busy today (I washed my truck, did some chores around the house), but I was able to finish Mahler's 2nd with Tennstedt and this is a good performance, but my favorite 2nd comes from Bernstein and the NYPO on Sony. I also think very highly of Rattle's with the CBSO.

Oh, it's a pleasure, John! It really is so incredibly pleasing to see your rise in enthusiasm for Mahler! I hope you continue to enjoy his music, by the sounds of it, you will! Well, your 5 Mahler symphonies in a day yesterday, was highly impressive, and makes me rather jealous! ;) Glad to hear you enjoyed the Tennstedt performance of no.2. The Bernstein performance you mention is excellent, the Rattle too.

Glad to hear that you enjoyed the Solti 6 too, John! Have you any favourite recordings of this symphony? As I have probably mentioned, Solti's is mine overall. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 17, 2012, 10:51:59 AM
The current conjunction of avatars makes conversations between John and Daniel not a little like a Monty Python skit or a theater of the absurd, with visions of Mahler talking with himself across the years.

Back to actual topic:
In John's original post,  I bolded the sets which I own as complete sets or complete series (as Zinman), italicized the ones from which I own at least a couple but not the complete series (with Rattle and Boulez being the most complete), and struck through the ones from which I have not a single recording.  Haitink doesn't fall into any of these categories, because I have only one recording (the Fourth) from his Philips set, but have the recordings of 1-3 he did on the CSO Resound label and the 4 he did on the RCO Live label.

Of the complete sets you listed, my favorites at the moment would be Chailly and Inbal, considered as all around cycles--meaning that while any of the individual recordings might be bettered by other individual recordings of the same work from the other cycles,  the quality across the series is high enough to make them good choices as a set. Bernstein on DG is a favorite but not as much as these first two.  Bertini and Tennstedt I'm not sure about yet--complicated in Tennstedt's case by the fact that I have the set which includes both the studio cycle and the live performances of 5-7--the cycle plus, so to speak.   A cycle I like as much as the Chailly and Inbal, but you didn't list there, is the MTT you just got for your father,   and then there's Gergiev, which is a very mixed bag (like Zinman's, in fact, but in different ways).

And I join my voice to those that like Barshai's recordings.

Well, as we all know, every cycle will have weak and strong points. Chailly's cycle is good, I haven't listened to any of Inbal's performances in quite some time. Bertini, like Chailly, is probably one of the more consistent cycles I've heard. Everything is extremely well played. Ilaria comments that Chailly's 6th has slow tempi, but if I recall correctly so did Boulez's 6th, which I'm keen on listening to very soon. Yes, I haven't heard a note of the MTT cycle. I'm actually still waiting for it to be delivered. I don't recall thinking much of Zinman's cycle, but do think the audio quality was noteworthy. I really enjoyed Haitink's 3rd with the RCO on Philips. A great performance. I'll be interested to hear how he fares in the rest of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 11:39:24 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 11:27:52 AM
Oh, it's a pleasure, John! It really is so incredibly pleasing to see your rise in enthusiasm for Mahler! I hope you continue to enjoy his music, by the sounds of it, you will! Well, your 5 Mahler symphonies in a day yesterday, was highly impressive, and makes me rather jealous! ;) Glad to hear you enjoyed the Tennstedt performance of no.2. The Bernstein performance you mention is excellent, the Rattle too.

Glad to hear that you enjoyed the Solti 6 too, John! Have you any favourite recordings of this symphony? As I have probably mentioned, Solti's is mine overall. :)

Thank you, Daniel. 8)

Yes, the Solti 6th was excellent. You were spot on with your description of this performance. Favorite 6th performances? I like Bernstein (DG), Abbado (BPO live DG) and Tennstedt but I'm really still getting my feet wet in regards to this symphony. I've never listened to it as much as you or many have, but I'm going to hopefully change this soon.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 17, 2012, 11:48:13 AM
Chailly's 6th is about the same length,  as Haitink's with the CSO on CSO Resound--for both the final movement lasts right around 30 minutes.  Don't have the Boulez recording to compare.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 11:52:53 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 11:39:24 AM
Thank you, Daniel. 8)

Yes, the Solti 6th was excellent. You were spot on with your description of this performance. Favorite 6th performances? I like Bernstein (DG), Abbado (BPO live DG) and Tennstedt but I'm really still getting my feet wet in regards to this symphony. I've never listened to it as much as you or many have, but I'm going to hopefully change this soon.

:)

Thanks, John! Oh, Bernstein DG is absolutely amazing! Particularly the finale, which is surely the most outstanding M6 finale on record! I am very excited to hear the Tennstedt cycle... I have heard nothing but good things about it. Glad to hear it, John! If pushed, I would have to say that no.6 is my favourite Mahler symphony. along with the 9th ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 11:59:36 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 11:52:53 AMThanks, John! Oh, Bernstein DG is absolutely amazing! Particularly the finale, which is surely the most outstanding M6 finale on record! I am very excited to hear the Tennstedt cycle... I have heard nothing but good things about it. Glad to hear it, John! If pushed, I would have to say that no.6 is my favourite Mahler symphony...along with the 9th. ;)

No need to be quiet about the 9th, Daniel. It is one of the most engrossing, deeply felt symphonies I've ever heard. I've said this many years ago though. I've always loved the 9th. I can understand how some can't listen to it very often because of it's almost overwhelming sense of despair, but this is the kind of music that I've always gravitated towards. I mean after all Pettersson's 7th remains a favorite of mine. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 17, 2012, 12:00:29 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 11:52:53 AM
Particularly the finale, which is surely the most outstanding M6 finale on record! I am very excited to hear the Tennstedt cycle... I have heard nothing but good things about it.
Funny to read this... I'll be interested in what you think of Tennstedt's 6th. Let's just say that Tennstedt is the only guy I need to go to for the 6th symphony now; the last movement I was actually quite unsure of what to think, even after hearing many different versions. Then I listened to Tennstedt and was blown away, feeling like I finally completely understood the music. I don't think this is a very common opinion, but he performs that last movement unlike anyone else, and still is the only satisfactory version for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 12:25:24 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 11:59:36 AM
No need to be quiet about the 9th, Daniel. It is one of the most engrossing, deeply felt symphonies I've ever heard. I've said this many years ago though. I've always loved the 9th. I can understand how some can't listen to it very often because of it's almost overwhelming sense of despair, but this is the kind of music that I've always gravitated towards. I mean after all Pettersson's 7th remains a favorite of mine. ;)

Don't worry, John, I just meant that I can't really decide which I love more, the 6th or the 9th. :) I absolutely agree, to me, it is some of the most incredibly powerful, beautiful, heavenly music ever written. The finale moves me to tears, real tears, every single time. I always say of the finale that in it, Mahler writes himself to heaven, and for the duration of the piece, takes us with him.  0:)
I cannot listen to the 9th too often, I don't want to lose those feelings of how special it is to me. A very spiritual, beautiful experience for me when I do listen to it though. For the 9th, I tend to turn to Karajan's second recording, or the Rattle BPO for a more modern reading. Both outstanding. :)

Quote from: Greg on May 17, 2012, 12:00:29 PM
Funny to read this... I'll be interested in what you think of Tennstedt's 6th. Let's just say that Tennstedt is the only guy I need to go to for the 6th symphony now; the last movement I was actually quite unsure of what to think, even after hearing many different versions. Then I listened to Tennstedt and was blown away, feeling like I finally completely understood the music. I don't think this is a very common opinion, but he performs that last movement unlike anyone else, and still is the only satisfactory version for me.

Thanks for your feedback on the Tennstedt, Greg, very interesting thoughts. I am very excited to hear it! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 01:08:32 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 12:25:24 PM
Don't worry, John, I just meant that I can't really decide which I love more, the 6th or the 9th. :) I absolutely agree, to me, it is some of the most incredibly powerful, beautiful, heavenly music ever written. The finale moves me to tears, real tears, every single time. I always say of the finale that in it, Mahler writes himself to heaven, and for the duration of the piece, takes us with him.  0:)
I cannot listen to the 9th too often, I don't want to lose those feelings of how special it is to me. A very spiritual, beautiful experience for me when I do listen to it though. For the 9th, I tend to turn to Karajan's second recording, or the Rattle BPO for a more modern reading. Both outstanding. :)

I remember the first time I heard Pettersson's 7th (the Segerstam BIS recording), I actually had tears in my eyes, especially when those moments of light penetrate the darkness. I don't cry to music very often, but this symphony was especially moving for me. Also, the Adagietto from Mahler's 5th. That has had quite an effect on me and I'm sure many others have been moved by it. The slow movement to Casella's Sinfonia "Symphony No. 3" is also something that continues to haunt me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 01:19:30 PM
Mahler listening log: Day 2:
------------------------------------

-Symphony No. 2, Klaus Tennstedt, London Philharmonic, EMI
-Symphony No. 5, Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, DG
-Symphony No. 9, Simon Rattle, Berlin Philharmonic, EMI
-Symphony No. 7, Georg Solti, Chicago Symphony Orch., Decca

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't heard Solti's 7th performance yet, but it will be my Mahler listening for the day. Highlights for me today (so far) have been Kubelik's 5th and Rattle's 9th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 01:34:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 01:08:32 PM
I remember the first time I heard Pettersson's 7th (the Segerstam BIS recording), I actually had tears in my eyes, especially when those moments of light penetrate the darkness. I don't cry to music very often, but this symphony was especially moving for me. Also, the Adagietto from Mahler's 5th. That has had quite an effect on me and I'm sure many others have been moved by it. The slow movement to Casella's Sinfonia "Symphony No. 3" is also something that continues to haunt me.

I would be interested to hear that Pettersson symphony....
There are a few specific pieces that make me cry, quite a lot of Mahler, R.Strauss, Elgar. The ending of the Ring Cycle did, 'Juliet's Death' from Prokofiev's R+J always does, the climax of the Daybreak from Ravel D+C too. A few others also. Those are the ones that instantly come into mind.
Oh, the Adagietto from M5 certainly is beautiful. Such incredibly romantic, moving music!
We could start a whole new thread on pieces that have this kind of affect on us! :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 01:19:30 PM
Mahler listening log: Day 2:
------------------------------------

-Symphony No. 2, Klaus Tennstedt, London Philharmonic, EMI
-Symphony No. 5, Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, DG
-Symphony No. 9, Simon Rattle, Berlin Philharmonic, EMI
-Symphony No. 7, Georg Solti, Chicago Symphony Orch., Decca

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't heard Solti's 7th performance yet, but it will be my Mahler listening for the day. Highlights for me today (so far) have been Kubelik's 5th and Rattle's 9th.

Great, John! Rattle's BPO M9 is truly outstanding. My favourite M9 along with Karajan II. Hope you enjoy Solti's M7, it's excellent! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 02:29:07 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 17, 2012, 01:34:52 PM
I would be interested to hear that Pettersson symphony....
There are a few specific pieces that make me cry, quite a lot of Mahler, R.Strauss, Elgar. The ending of the Ring Cycle did, 'Juliet's Death' from Prokofiev's R+J always does, the climax of the Daybreak from Ravel D+C too. A few others also. Those are the ones that instantly come into mind.
Oh, the Adagietto from M5 certainly is beautiful. Such incredibly romantic, moving music!
We could start a whole new thread on pieces that have this kind of affect on us! :)

Great, John! Rattle's BPO M9 is truly outstanding. My favourite M9 along with Karajan II. Hope you enjoy Solti's M7, it's excellent! :)

Wow, you must go through a box of tissues in a few days. ;) :D After Rattle's 9th finishes, Solti's 7th is up next. Can't wait to hear it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on May 17, 2012, 02:32:12 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 02:29:07 PM
Wow, you must go through a box of tissues in a few days. ;)
He's such a wimp, our Daniel.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 02:38:21 PM
Quote from: North Star on May 17, 2012, 02:32:12 PM
He's such a wimp, our Daniel.  ;D

:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on May 17, 2012, 03:10:03 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 17, 2012, 01:46:08 AM
Yes, Chailly's 3rd is absolutely remarkable, such a brilliant, beautiful performance. His complete cycles was the latest one I listened to and I extremely enjoyed it; from No.1 to No.5, plus No.7 and No.9, the symphonies are one better than the other, absolutely thrilling and powerful. The 6th is very fine and well played, with a passionate, vibrant Alma Theme, but it lacks energy in the march because of the tempo chosen. I think the best recording of Chailly's set-box is definitely the 5th symphony.
Would definitely agree with the raves for 3, 5 and 7; it's definitely nuanced Mahler rather than Bernsteinian Mahler, so those who prefer a more in-your-face approach may not like it so much. Chailly's 3rd and 5ths were the recordings that got me back into these symphonies after overplaying the works when I was younger (this might be a good point to randomly recap M Forever's "underrated Mahler 3"--Armin Jordan on Virgin, which has many of the same merits as Chailly).

I'd be tempted to praise the 10th as highly as anything in this set, though: I imprinted on the 1980 Rattle but after a few listenings the more understated Chailly became my favourite--in particular, the string and woodwind playing in the more optimistic music in the finale is extraordinarily gentle and tender, and so utterly right to my ears.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 03:58:22 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 16, 2012, 07:37:53 PMMahler with moustache makes me think of Inspector Clouseau :(  "Do you have for me the massage?"

I always thought Mahler looked like Frank Bridge in my avatar. :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 07:05:43 PM
The slow movement of the 4th (3rd movement -- Ruhevoll, poco adagio) towards the end sounds like the slow movement (Adagietto) of the 5th. It's beautiful, of course, but it's played at almost the volume of a whisper. It's like the Adagietto of the 5th symphony's ghost! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 17, 2012, 07:37:36 PM

I remember Naxos put out a "Mahler Adagio" album. I can just imagine some unsuspecting person putting that on for some background relaxation music .... and then slowly getting freaked out  >:D :D



[ASIN]B0000014CQ[/ASIN]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 17, 2012, 07:37:36 PM
I remember Naxos put out a "Mahler Adagio" album. I can just imagine some unsuspecting person putting that on for some background relaxation music .... and then slowly getting freaked out  >:D :D



[ASIN]B0000014CQ[/ASIN]

:P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 09:20:52 PM
Here's what my listening log is going to look like for tomorrow:
--------------------------------------

-Symphony No. 3, Riccardo Chailly, Royal Concertgebouw, Decca (listening to this one now actually)
-Symphony No. 1, Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orch., DG
-Symphony No. 6, Pierre Boulez, Vienna Philharmonic, DG
-Symphony No. 2, Simon Rattle, City of Birmingham Symphony Orch., EMI
-Symphony No. 8, Bernarnd Haitink, Royal Concertgebouw, Philips

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've already marked these down in my journal except for the one highlighted which I don't know if I'll have time to listen to or not. Right now, Chailly's 3rd is as good as I remembered it being. Absolutely wonderful.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 08:33:03 AM
By the way, Daniel, I have to say that I wasn't overly impressed with Solti's 7th. I did, however, like the way he handled the last movement. I thought both Nachtmusik movements weren't very convincing. Solti didn't seem very sensitive to the more melodic aspects of these movements, but Solti has never been a subtle conductor anyway, so the fault definitely lies with him here IMHO. They were just missing a certain magic that I think Rattle and Abbado deliver in spades.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 11:29:15 AM
I will conclude my Mahler listening for the day later on this evening with this recording:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/cc/94/b5a0793509a0ecc419d52110.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on May 18, 2012, 01:27:08 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 17, 2012, 02:29:07 PM
Wow, you must go through a box of tissues in a few days. ;) :D After Rattle's 9th finishes, Solti's 7th is up next. Can't wait to hear it.
Quote from: North Star on May 17, 2012, 02:32:12 PM
He's such a wimp, our Daniel.  ;D

haha!  :P

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 08:33:03 AM
By the way, Daniel, I have to say that I wasn't overly impressed with Solti's 7th. I did, however, like the way he handled the last movement. I thought both Nachtmusik movements weren't very convincing. Solti didn't seem very sensitive to the more melodic aspects of these movements, but Solti has never been a subtle conductor anyway, so the fault definitely lies with him here IMHO. They were just missing a certain magic that I think Rattle and Abbado deliver in spades.

Sorry to hear that, John! I really do enjoy this performance, especially of the first movement. I can however agree that Solti could be more subtle in the Nachtmusik movements. I think I am going to listen to MTT's LSO M7 soon, which I am really looking forward to. The Rattle certainly is great, if lacking in a slight bit of excitment compared to other recordings. I, and I believe Sarge too, feel that Abbado is a bit 'safe'. Or maybe I've just been listening to too much Solti! ;) We all have such different views when it comes to the performance of Mahler! :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 11:29:15 AM
I will conclude my Mahler listening for the day later on this evening with this recording:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/cc/94/b5a0793509a0ecc419d52110.L.jpg)

A great performance, John! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 01:48:31 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on May 18, 2012, 01:27:08 PM
haha!  :P

Sorry to hear that, John! I really do enjoy this performance, especially of the first movement. I can however agree that Solti could be more subtle in the Nachtmusik movements. I think I am going to listen to MTT's LSO M7 soon, which I am really looking forward to. The Rattle certainly is great, if lacking in a slight bit of excitment compared to other recordings. I, and I believe Sarge too, feel that Abbado is a bit 'safe'. Or maybe I've just been listening to too much Solti! ;) We all have such different views when it comes to the performance of Mahler! :)

A great performance, John! :)

I disagree with your opinion of Abbado, but you already know I LOVE Abbado's Mahler, so nothing you or anyone else can say can change that! LONG LIVE ABBADO'S MAHLER!!! :D I also disagree that the Rattle 7th 'lacks excitement.' On the contrary, I think it's one of the more spirited 7th performances I've heard, but, again, Rattle doesn't need to prove himself as an heir to Solti or Bernstein or Walter or Boulez, Rattle is Rattle and what I listen to in his performance is what I admire the most: he brings a detail-oriented approach that works well with the 7th because of the inherent structural complexity this symphony contains. Simply put, Rattle made this symphony click for me and for that I'm grateful.

All of this said, there are a myriad of ways to approach Mahler's music. Each symphony presents unique challenges for every conductor and orchestra.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
Symphony No. 7

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lcjJSHdzyuI/S-Y8H29td8I/AAAAAAAAB8E/OYI0PH1tmaw/s1600/dark-forest-queen-night-31000.jpg)

Probably Mahler's most enigmatic symphony, this work, for me, conjures up so many strong images, but one of the most vivid is perhaps a lone horseman galloping in a state of panic through a forest with an unknown force slowly closing in on him, especially in the more intense, faster paced sections of the symphony.

What do you think Mahler is trying to express in this symphony?

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about each individual movement:

1st movement-

The movement is in sonata form. It begins with a slow introduction, launched by a dark melody played by a baritone horn (German Tenorhorn). The accompanimental rhythm was said to have come to Mahler whilst rowing on the lake at Maiernigg after a period of compositional drought. Bitter and anguished cries emerge from various members of the woodwind and brass families and lead to a passionate climax. (The principal trumpet in the orchestra for the work's première even confronted Mahler, saying "I'd just like to know what's beautiful about blowing away at a trumpet stopped up to high C-sharp" Mahler had no answer, but later pointed out to Alma that the man did not understand the agony of his own existence).[7] The pace quickens and the music launches into a strangely confused dance—part Viennese waltz, part grotesque stomp, and part militaristic march—which yields to a lyrical theme introduced by a pair of horns. The swaying and swooping of the violins in this section was inspired by the wildlife and scenery of the Carinthian Mountains in summer. An abrupt return to the double basses heralds an inexorable build-up of passion which only finds its final resolution in the brisk and robust—but curiously bitter-sweet—march with which the movement ends.

2nd movement-

The second movement opens with horns calling to each other across the mountain valleys in the gathering dusk. The first of the two "Nachtmusik" ("Night Music") movements, this is said to represent a "walk by night", and could represent a musical recreation of Rembrandt's Night Watch, which impressed Mahler; he had spent considerable time at the Rijksmuseum on his first trip to the Netherlands in 1904. Mahler, however, described the movement in more vague terms.[8] Scampering woodwind pass off into the distance as the horns introduce a rich, somewhat bucolic theme, surrounded by dancing strings. The rural mood is heightened by a gentle, rustic dance - typical of Mahler at his most carefree and childlike - as well as by high fluttering woodwind bird-calls and the gentle clanking of distant cow-bells. At the end, the movement gradually descends into silence. Night has finally fallen.

3rd movement-

There is an undercurrent of night about the spooky third movement; while Scherzo means 'joke', this movement is remarkably gloomy and even grim. Nonetheless, as the Spanish musicologist José L. Pérez de Arteaga points out (Pérez de Arteaga, José L.: Mahler, Barcelona, Salvat, 1987, p. 148), this movement is really "a most morbid and sarcastic mockery of the Viennese waltz". Eerie timpani and low wind instruments set off on a threatening waltz, complete with unearthly woodwind shrieks and ghostly shimmerings from the basses. At one point, the strings are instructed to play pizzicato with the volume fffff, with the footnote, pluck so hard that the strings hit the wood. Curious instrumental effects give this movement a strongly nightmarish quality.

4th movement-

The fourth movement (the second "Nachtmusik"), with its "amorous" marking and reduced instrumentation—trombones, tuba and trumpets are silent and woodwinds reduced by half—has been described as "a long stretch of chamber music set amidst this huge orchestral work". A solo violin introduces the movement, while a horn solo above the gentle tones of a guitar and mandolin create a magical serenade character.
5th movement-

Boisterous timpani, joined in the fray by blazing brass, set the scene for the riotous fifth movement. Here is quasi-film music, pomp and pageantry and great dramatic gestures all rolled into a piece that demands intense orchestral display. Formally, the movement is a rondo that acts as the theme for a set of eight variations, capped off by a dramatic coda. There are parodies of Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, Franz Lehár's The Merry Widow,[9] as well as of Mahler's own Fifth Symphony[citation needed] and the famous Lutheran Hymn "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott",[citation needed] not to mention other ironic and sarcastic references.[citation needed] Little wonder that, of all the Symphony's movements, this has come in for the greatest amount of criticism and puzzlement (it has been seen by many as something of a let-down and somewhat superficial,[citation needed] dodging questions set by the previous movements): its virtually unrelenting mood of celebration seems quite at odds with the dark character of the earlier movements - "a vigorous life-asserting pageant of Mahlerian blatancy", is how Michael Kennedy describes it. For his part Mahler described it simply as a depiction of "broad daylight"[citation needed] and the outrageously exuberant ending, with passing references to the very opening theme, seems to encapsulate the blazing brilliance of the noonday sun.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on May 18, 2012, 04:07:47 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
What do you think Mahler is trying to express in this symphony?
Buggered if I know, but it's possible to make it express almost anything. So I guess it's about life. ;)

I'm rather partial to Scherchen's view of the last movement, which sometimes seems close to "... and you wake up, and discover the light at the end of the tunnel is a train." Of course, none of his 7ths were ideally executed (the Toronto version is near to complete disintegration at times); I guess one could regard Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim as something of a modern analogue--I certainly find the rejoicing in the last movement leaves a nasty taste in one's mouth in this recording.

But there's so many things you can do with this symphony--and make them work--which is what makes it so infinitely rewarding to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 04:14:05 PM
Quote from: edward on May 18, 2012, 04:07:47 PM
Buggered if I know, but it's possible to make it express almost anything. So I guess it's about life. ;)

I'm rather partial to Scherchen's view of the last movement, which sometimes seems close to "... and you wake up, and discover the light at the end of the tunnel is a train." Of course, none of his 7ths were ideally executed (the Toronto version is near to complete disintegration at times); I guess one could regard Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim as something of a modern analogue--I certainly find the rejoicing in the last movement leaves a nasty taste in one's mouth in this recording.

But there's so many things you can do with this symphony--and make them work--which is what makes it so infinitely rewarding to me.

But if we were to look at the structure alone, it's abnormal even for a Mahler symphony. :) Then there's the music, this symphony is a strange brew of sounds of the forests with several episodes of demonic firebreathing. Saying the symphony is about 'life' is pretty obvious since everything Mahler wrote came from his soul and reflected his innermost thoughts, but what were those thoughts in this symphony? Why were two movements titled Nachtmusik, what relation do these two movements have with the rest of the work? A mind wonders...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 05:43:40 PM
Mahler listening log for today:
----------------------------------

-Symphony No. 1, Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony, DG
-Symphony No. 3, Riccardo Chailly, Royal Concertgebouw, Decca
-Symphony No. 6, Pierre Boulez, Vienna Philharmonic, DG
-Symphony No. 7, Bernard Haitink, Royal Concertgebouw, Philips
-Symphony No. 5, Claudio Abbado, Berlin Philharmonic, DG

------------------------------------------------------------------

The one bolded is the one I haven't listened to yet. Particular highlights for me today were Kubelik's performance of the 1st symphony and Chailly's performance of the 3rd. Both amazing performances. Haitink's 7th is a bit of a misfire as I don't think he fully understands this symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2012, 05:56:35 PM
Currently listening for the first time to a Hanssler Classic "historical recording" released last year
Mahler Symphony No. 6
SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden Baden und Freiburg
Kirill Kondrashin, conductor.

Studio recording 13-15 January 1981
As I write this the last movement is (I think this is a fair adjective to use) hurtling to its end. (Quick edit;  slows down to merely rapid strides in the last few minutes.)
i:   Allergo energico                   17:02
ii:  Scherzo: Wuchtig                 12:09
iii: Andante moderato               13:26
iv: Finale: Andante moderato    25:25

I assume there are cuts in the first movement, but my ears didn't detect any missing landmarks.    Total time is 68:24.  At least some of the brief times in the outer movements can be attributed to using tempos on the fast side.   Certainly an effective rendition.

It is a trifle depressing to see a recording described as "historical" when it was recorded a year after one graduated college.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on May 18, 2012, 06:26:28 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 18, 2012, 05:56:35 PM
I assume there are cuts in the first movement, but my ears didn't detect any missing landmarks.
No cuts, just a very rapid tempo and skipping the first-movement repeat (if I remember rightly, the Melodiya recording is actually faster).

Kondrashin in the 6th I find interesting but ultimately too one-dimensional to be amongst my favourites--it really is a merciless performance. I really like his studio 7th, though. (I should get hold of the Amsterdam live performance, I guess, but my Mahler 7s are ballooning.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2012, 07:24:42 PM
Quote from: edward on May 18, 2012, 06:26:28 PM
No cuts, just a very rapid tempo and skipping the first-movement repeat (if I remember rightly, the Melodiya recording is actually faster).

Kondrashin in the 6th I find interesting but ultimately too one-dimensional to be amongst my favourites--it really is a merciless performance. I really like his studio 7th, though. (I should get hold of the Amsterdam live performance, I guess, but my Mahler 7s are ballooning.)

Thanks for the confirmation.  (To be clear, skipping the repeat is what I call a cut--although I thought I heard at least the beginning of that repeat!)

And yes, merciless is a good way to describe this performance. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 20, 2012, 05:56:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2012, 04:14:05 PMBut if we were to look at the structure alone, it's abnormal even for a Mahler symphony. :)

It's a close match for the 10th, actually....
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on May 24, 2012, 06:45:48 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 20, 2012, 05:56:19 PM
It's a close match for the 10th, actually....

I also feel the 7th is a close match for the 10th, and wonder if that says something about the nature of the 10th? At least interpretively.



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on May 24, 2012, 05:36:23 PM
Quote from: Leo K on May 24, 2012, 06:45:48 AMI also feel the 7th is a close match for the 10th, and wonder if that says something about the nature of the 10th? At least interpretively.

I've posted my theory elsewhere - I think 7 is Mahler's most innocent and whimsical symphony, about a child's dreams at night. 10 I think is inspired by the death of his daughter Maria Anna. The twin structures indicate the mirroring of these ideas, happy and hellish.

BTW, last time I listened to 9 and 10 in order, it struck me that the opening adagio of 10 may in part be parodying the themes of the closing adagio of 9. Has anyone else noticed this?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 24, 2012, 06:51:00 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 24, 2012, 05:36:23 PM
BTW, last time I listened to 9 and 10 in order, it struck me that the opening adagio of 10 may in part be parodying the themes of the closing adagio of 9. Has anyone else noticed this?
Maybe, but then again, another possibility is that it just sounds similar (I'd have to know specifically which parts you're talking about). Both adagios use a certain type of melodic formula which is quite specific, so it's also a possibility that similarities may not have been intentional.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 29, 2012, 10:38:32 AM
The Mahler Blind Testing going on, courtesy discoboble (?) inspired me to salvage more of the 2009 Mahler Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/search/label/G.Mahler%20Survey) from WETA to ionarts.

Working my way backwards through the 25 'episodes', I've now arrived at Symphony 8, PART 1 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no8-part-1.html) and PART 2 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no8-part-2.html). (And will have to do some formatting of the previously salvaged ones, to get a coherent look, update information, and fix graphics where links are broken.)
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: pbarach on June 30, 2012, 08:43:29 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on May 24, 2012, 05:36:23 PM
I've posted my theory elsewhere - I think 7 is Mahler's most innocent and whimsical symphony, about a child's dreams at night. 10 I think is inspired by the death of his daughter Maria Anna.

10 is inspired by Mahler finding out Alma was getting it on with Gropius. Handwritten inscriptions over the manuscript of the last movement make this clear.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2012, 02:39:51 PM
Quote from: pbarach on June 30, 2012, 08:43:29 AM
10 is inspired by Mahler finding out Alma was getting it on with Gropius. Handwritten inscriptions over the manuscript of the last movement make this clear.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html)

yep. the score is littered with such and similarly gloomy\pathetic remarks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 01, 2012, 04:08:19 AM
Quote from: edward on May 18, 2012, 06:26:28 PM
No cuts, just a very rapid tempo and skipping the first-movement repeat (if I remember rightly, the Melodiya recording is actually faster).

Kondrashin in the 6th I find interesting but ultimately too one-dimensional to be amongst my favourites--it really is a merciless performance. I really like his studio 7th, though. (I should get hold of the Amsterdam live performance, I guess, but my Mahler 7s are ballooning.)
It's worth it I think though. There are a couple fluffs (it is live), but the playing of the orchestra is generally quite good and better than the Leningrad PO. The timings are nearly identical though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 01, 2012, 05:56:40 PM
Quote from: pbarach on June 30, 2012, 08:43:29 AM10 is inspired by Mahler finding out Alma was getting it on with Gropius. Handwritten inscriptions over the manuscript of the last movement make this clear.

No, he wrote most of the music before he found out about Alma/Walter.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2012, 02:22:29 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 01, 2012, 05:56:40 PM
No, he wrote most of the music before he found out about Alma/Walter.

Mahler had had his doubts throughout, but started (rightly) suspecting matters were taking an unprecedentedly 'involved' turn around June 1910, when A. curtailed her correspondence to G. (Partly because she was shagging W.G., partly because she had secretly left the Tobelbad Spa for Vienna). A.'s mother, too, was in on it... and helped facilitate meetings between A. & W.G.. (Nice! note to self: quality of mother-in-law matters)

G. was writing on his 10th at the time, starting around July 11th / 18th spontaneously -- when a fortnight before that, he had no plans yet to write another symphony.
The third and fourth movement are littered with the anguished outbursts... the finale is rather an attempt or the achievement of overcoming this.
On July 30th (??) G. received W.G.'s 'misadressed letter' -- and the young architect had the temerity to show up in Toblach. After August 7th he started writing again.
His date with Freud was August 25th, between the 28th and September 2nd he would still have had time to continue on the 10th... after that, he probably didn't touch it anymore.

So how is the 10th 'not that much' influenced by these events?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 06:04:56 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2012, 02:22:29 AMG. was writing on his 10th at the time, starting around July 11th / 18th spontaneously -- when a fortnight before that, he had no plans yet to write another symphony.
The third and fourth movement are littered with the anguished outbursts... the finale is rather an attempt or the achievement of overcoming this.
On July 30th (??) G. received W.G.'s 'misadressed letter' -- and the young architect had the temerity to show up in Toblach. After August 7th he started writing again.

Mahler began working on the symphony around 7 July (his birthday), three weeks before Walter's letter arrived on 29 July. Thus, the work was already conceived and planned - only an amateur improvises a symphony. The first two movements are not marked by any Alma-directed exhortations (not even the cataclysm of the first movement). Thus, the bad news may have informed the later part of the short score, but did not shape the work entire. Possibly Alma's betrayal would have had a larger effect on the work had Mahler lived to revise it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 04, 2012, 03:33:55 AM
QuoteMahler wrote huge works but he also had a kind of mania about clarity. Everything had to be audible. He wanted the listener to hear every instrument and relish every detail. ~Charles Mackerras

QuoteMahler suffers greatly from being subjected to sentimental mediocrities, with heart-on-sleeve performances that stretch, pull and exaggerate the music. ~Lorin Maazel

Just two quotes of interest from Gramophone's "Mahler by the World's Greatest Conductors"  (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/mahler-by-the-worlds-greatest-conductors?page=0,0)
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: pbarach on July 04, 2012, 10:02:31 AM
Maazel of all people is complaining about exaggerated Mahler performances??
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 04, 2012, 10:08:57 AM
Quote from: pbarach on July 04, 2012, 10:02:31 AM
Maazel of all people is complaining about exaggerated Mahler performances??

No, he's against sentimental performances. His Mahler is not sentimental. Sometimes mannered, frequently broad, idiosyncratic, rigid, in complete control, yes, but I can't think of an overly sentimental moment.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 04, 2012, 05:36:51 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 02, 2012, 06:04:56 PM
Mahler began working on the symphony around 7 July (his birthday), three weeks before Walter's letter arrived on 29 July. Thus, the work was already conceived and planned - only an amateur improvises a symphony. The first two movements are not marked by any Alma-directed exhortations (not even the cataclysm of the first movement). Thus, the bad news may have informed the later part of the short score, but did not shape the work entire. Possibly Alma's betrayal would have had a larger effect on the work had Mahler lived to revise it.
It probably had more of an influence after he had been writing it for a while...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 05, 2012, 01:01:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 04, 2012, 10:08:57 AM
No, he's against sentimental performances. His Mahler is not sentimental. Sometimes mannered, frequently broad, idiosyncratic, rigid, in complete control, yes, but I can't think of an overly sentimental moment.

Sarge

along similar lines:

QuoteWhen there is no initial show of hands at the question & answer time, Küppers seems eager to wrap it up. He is preempted by three hands that hastily shoot up. The questions are for Thielemann and include: "What's your relationship with Mahler"? "Why do you ask that?" CT shoots back, moodily. "Uh, oh... professional curiosity?" stumbles the journalist half cowed, half defiant. "Well, I have a troubled relationship with Mahler's music. But then you knew that, which is why you asked, no?" Touché. But what follows changes the mood in the room completely. "Mahler's music lends itself most to those conductors" Thielemann reflects, "who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement. That doesn't exactly accommodate my conducting style; I've not been terribly successful at that yet. The music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve, eventually. Not always to enhance something. I'm currently trying to wean myself off that in Strauss, actually..." Thielemann thus continues a solid three minutes on his fallibility as a conductor in Mahler, about trying to break habits and improving—a touching, beautifully honest moment.http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html)

As part of these comments, Thielemann mentioned Haitink explicitly, as someone he admires in Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 05, 2012, 06:16:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 05, 2012, 01:01:45 AM
along similar lines:

As part of these comments, Thielemann mentioned Haitink explicitly, as someone he admires in Mahler.

Concerning the "holding back" and not adding anything, perhaps that explains Pierre Boulez and his later-in-life Mahler cycle?

Not that Boulez was a stranger to Mahler before that: over 40 years ago I purchased the complete Das Klagende Lied which he recorded with (I believe) the London Symphony and Chorus.  A great interpretation, if it is still available.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2012, 06:23:13 AM
Kremerata Baltica recorded the Adagio from the Tenth, arranged for strings by Mel Stottlemyre Hans Stadlmair.  I think, though, that it is too sunny a day to listen to it in the daylight hours.  This evening, perhaps . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2012, 06:34:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 05, 2012, 06:16:10 AM
Concerning the "holding back" and not adding anything, perhaps that explains Pierre Boulez and his later-in-life Mahler cycle?

Not that Boulez was a stranger to Mahler before that: over 40 years ago I purchased the complete Das Klagende Lied which he recorded with (I believe) the London Symphony and Chorus.  A great interpretation, if it is still available.

I  have that too. Double LP gatefold. And, yes, Boulez included Waldmärchen  8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/klagendeboulez.jpg)

CDs can be found used. Here for example. (http://www.amazon.de/Das-Klagende-Lied-Pierre-Boulez/dp/B000026I58/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1341498668&sr=1-4)


Sarge


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2012, 06:38:26 AM
Ah, and with the late Evelyn Lear, no less! God rest her saule.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 05, 2012, 06:41:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2012, 06:34:48 AM
I  have that too. Double LP gatefold. And Boulez included Waldmärchen  8)

Did he splice that in later, though?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2012, 06:51:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2012, 06:38:26 AM
Ah, and with the late Evelyn Lear, no less! God rest her saule.

She was one of the first sopranos I was truly aware of by name. Some of my first classical purchases featured Lear: her Marie and Lulu (in Böhm's Wozzeck and Lulu); her Marschallin (de Waart's Rosenkavalier); this Mahler.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2012, 06:54:35 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 05, 2012, 06:41:16 AM
Did he splice that in later, though?

I think so. Söderström replaces Lear, and Waldmärchen is on the second LP with Der Spielmann and Hochzeitsstück occupying the first LP.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 05, 2012, 07:15:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/YfiA6wUHOI4

Jonas Kaufmann may be the best I've ever heard in this, and von Otter is much better than I expected. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 05, 2012, 03:11:42 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 05, 2012, 06:34:48 AM
I  have that too. Double LP gatefold. And, yes, Boulez included Waldmärchen  8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/klagendeboulez.jpg)

CDs can be found used. Here for example. (http://www.amazon.de/Das-Klagende-Lied-Pierre-Boulez/dp/B000026I58/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1341498668&sr=1-4)


Sarge

Thanks, Sarge!  My 2-record set had a large flower spread over the cardboard:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bb8HJzXWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2012, 06:11:41 PM
Went by a local used vinyl LP/CD store in Fort Lauderdale, and walked out with (among other things) three Mahler recordings--on LP, Bruno Walter conducting the NY Philharmonic in Symphony 4, Desi Halban soprano.  It was a re-issue on the Odyssey lable, so there's no recording data to say when it was originally recorded.  Since I don't have an LP player or an MP3 coverter thingy,  it may be a while before I actually listen to this one.
On CD--Symphony 1,  BBC Symphony Orchestra conducted by Martin Honeck.   Struck me as a reasonably good performance, but no revelation.
And the prize--Symphony No. 4--Moscow Philharmonic conducted by David Oistrakh, Galina Vishnevskaya coupled with the Adagio from No. 10,  USSR State Radio and Television Symphony Orchestra conducted by Gennadi Rozhdestvensky, on the Yedang Classics label.  These are apparently radio broadcasts (a live concert in the case of the Fourth) remastered for this release, which came out in 2001.  The Fourth dates to 22 January 1967, the Adagio to 1963 (no precise date for this one).  Why they chose a picture of Vishnevskaya with Mr. Vishneskaya for the cover I don't know, since Slava had nothing to do with this performance other than possibly sit in the audience. 
[asin]B0002DRBTS[/asin]
Currently listed on this page as New $1.00 Used $0.88 The Amazon reviewer was apparently listening to a a completely different recording.  I heard one cough during the entire symphony.  Or maybe the performance was good enough that I didn't notice audience noise.
[asin]B007WVPBHC[/asin]
The listing on this page is for an Amazon CD-R version.
[asin]B000006BAR[/asin]
Same performance, different mastering, and I suspect that means it won't sound as good on this issue.
Overall an excellent performance, and Vishneskaya was actually able to achieve a child like tone in her singing,  per Mahler's intentions. 
The Adagio was very good, too, and one of the best I've heard of that movement performed in isolation (that is, not as part of the complete symphony.)
The audio is monaural, but it's superb, and in much of the Fourth you might even think it's stereo if you didn't know otherwise.  Yedang/Pipeline Music did a superb job with this one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on July 13, 2012, 10:19:17 AM
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/MahlerNoir.jpg)

Just out of curiosity, how was the 1st received at its premier?  I gave it two complete spins last night and would have been blown away....just sayin'.(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100131124444/mafiawars/images/3/37/Thumb_Item_ness_fedora_75x75_03.gif)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 13, 2012, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: Bogey on July 13, 2012, 10:19:17 AM
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/MahlerNoir.jpg)

Just out of curiosity, how was the 1st received at its premier?  I gave it two complete spins last night and would have been blown away....just sayin'.(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100131124444/mafiawars/images/3/37/Thumb_Item_ness_fedora_75x75_03.gif)

None of the first performances were successful. In Vienna the first movement was met with boredom and uneasiness, incomprehension. The second movement warmly applauded but the Funeral March laughed at and booed. After the last movement there were some "timid bravos" that were drowned out by hissing. Then pandemonium broke out and Mahler fled. In general, the symphony was given a hostile reception everywhere, by both audience and critics.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on July 13, 2012, 11:13:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 13, 2012, 11:09:24 AM
None of the first performances were successful. In Vienna the first movement was met with boredom and uneasiness, incomprehension. The second movement warmly applauded but the Funeral March laughed at and booed. After the last movement there were some "timid bravos" that were drowned out by hissing. Then pandemonium broke out and Mahler fled. In general, the symphony was given a hostile reaction everywhere, by both audience and critics.

Sarge

Hah!  Actually sounds like a great time!  Thanks, Sarge.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on July 13, 2012, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 13, 2012, 11:09:24 AM
None of the first performances were successful. In Vienna the first movement was met with boredom and uneasiness, incomprehension. The second movement warmly applauded but the Funeral March laughed at and booed. After the last movement there were some "timid bravos" that were drowned out by hissing. Then pandemonium broke out and Mahler fled. In general, the symphony was given a hostile reaction everywhere, by both audience and critics.

Sarge
Slightly reminiscent of Le Sacre du Printemps
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 15, 2012, 05:50:40 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 13, 2012, 02:45:45 PMSlightly reminiscent of Le Sacre du Printemps

Important to remember that in the case of the Rite, and probably at Vienna too, we're looking at organised factional barracking, not spontaneous outbursts.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 15, 2012, 06:24:56 PM
That's not how Monteux relates the story. The Rite was preceded by Les Sylphides, as classical a ballet as ever has been staged. This was a subscription concert, attended by the usual crowd of rich and snobs.  When the curtain went up, "the audience was treated to the sight of the dancers with their knees bent, standing pigeon-toed, which is the exact opposite of classical ballet's first position. This immediate violation of ballet's basic principles may have ignited the audience's fuse, for the French like to think they "own" ballet, much as Americans feel about jazz and Italians about opera" (John Canarina in his Monteux biography, Maître) . The description continues with the catcalls and imprecations of the well-heeled patrons, along with the voices of those trying to quell the disturbance. A clear case of one side fueling the other. It did not help that apparently Nijinsky himself confused every one on stage with his choreographic indications, shouted from the right wing, just out of view of the audience. Stravinsky, standing next to him, wrote : "I wondered what on earth these numbers had to do with the music, for there are no "thirteens" or "seventeens" in the metrical scheme of the score" (letter from Stravinsky to Craft, 1959). It should be noted that the public dress rehearsal of the previous night, attended by musical luminaries such as Ravel, Debussy and Schmitt, had gone without incident. The public of the first performance expected an agreeable show, they got a musical revolution. No wonder it caused a ruckus.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 15, 2012, 07:40:51 PM
Quote from: André on July 15, 2012, 06:24:56 PMThe public of the first performance expected an agreeable show, they got a musical revolution.

Interesting, thanks, but from what you say it seems the dancing was the issue, not the music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2012, 06:55:39 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 15, 2012, 07:40:51 PM
Interesting, thanks, but from what you say it seems the dancing was the issue, not the music.

Yes, the riot was more a reaction to the choreography than to the music, which the noise of the crowd often drowned out.

Thread Duty:

So Benny Haitink has a new Ninth due for release the end of this month, eh? . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on July 18, 2012, 07:22:46 AM
He does? Any chance it's the one live from the 'Gebouw which I downloaded a long time ago but never got around to the listening bit? ;D

EDIT: Never mind. It's one with a bunch called the Rundfunks. Well, at least your post reminded of me the un-listened-to music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2012, 11:51:59 AM
What's the best M3 on Naxos Music Library? I just gave tries to Tennstedt live '86 on ICA (brass lines after the dread drumbeats were too blurred and sloppy) and Nagano on Apex (everything chillingly precise) but was frustrated with each after just 2 minutes. Other options: Wit/Radio, Litton/Dallas, Abravanel, Rogner, Rattle, Tennstedt (studio), Tilson Thomas, Haitink (Chicago), Schwarz (Liverpool), Kubelik (Bavaria '67), Bychkov, Gielen, Mitropoulos, Gergiev, Nott, a few others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2012, 12:01:38 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 18, 2012, 11:51:59 AM
What's the best M3 on Naxos Music Library? I just gave tries to Tennstedt live '86 on ICA (brass lines after the dread drumbeats were too blurred and sloppy) and Nagano on Apex (everything chillingly precise) but was frustrated with each after just 2 minutes. Other options: Wit/Radio, Litton/Dallas, Abravanel, Rogner, Rattle, Tennstedt (studio), Tilson Thomas, Haitink (Chicago), Schwarz (Liverpool), Kubelik (Bavaria '67), Bychkov, Gielen, Mitropoulos, Gergiev, Nott, a few others.

I haven't heard it yet but have ordered Bychkov (twice...the first seller reneged on the deal). Tony Duggan raved about it, calling it the best "modern" Third...or something like that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 18, 2012, 12:33:33 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 18, 2012, 11:51:59 AM
What's the best M3 on Naxos Music Library? I just gave tries to Tennstedt live '86 on ICA (brass lines after the dread drumbeats were too blurred and sloppy) and Nagano on Apex (everything chillingly precise) but was frustrated with each after just 2 minutes. Other options: Wit/Radio, Litton/Dallas, Abravanel, Rogner, Rattle, Tennstedt (studio), Tilson Thomas, Haitink (Chicago), Schwarz (Liverpool), Kubelik (Bavaria '67), Bychkov, Gielen, Mitropoulos, Gergiev, Nott, a few others.

Quote...Kubelik's live recording from April 20<sup>th</sup> 1967 on Audite is a very moving performance—the gingerly played high trumpet notes in the Wunderhorn-referencing Scherzando of the third movement are just (barely, but still) on the right side of dread and accuracy: Appropriate for the grotesquerie of a bucolic postcard-version of nature and the mockery that the animals make of it ("Oxen, taking each other by the hoofs, in a triumphal ring-a-ring-o' roses" , Adorno)...

QuoteMichael Tilson Thomas' 2002 effectual recording with Michelle DeYoung ... establishes very naturally, immediately, that there is greatness at work. A gripping and detailed first and third movement, a moving, moaning Misterioso fourth movement, a superbly singing chorus marvelously caught by the engineers, and a heart-wrenchingly affectionate finale. It's easily enough for me to rank among the best, and possibly ahead of Salonen, Mehta, and Kubelik.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 18, 2012, 04:42:48 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 18, 2012, 11:51:59 AM
What's the best M3 on Naxos Music Library? I just gave tries to Tennstedt live '86 on ICA (brass lines after the dread drumbeats were too blurred and sloppy) and Nagano on Apex (everything chillingly precise) but was frustrated with each after just 2 minutes. Other options: Wit/Radio, Litton/Dallas, Abravanel, Rogner, Rattle, Tennstedt (studio), Tilson Thomas, Haitink (Chicago), Schwarz (Liverpool), Kubelik (Bavaria '67), Bychkov, Gielen, Mitropoulos, Gergiev, Nott, a few others.

I found the Rattle to be deadly dull, a good cure for insomnia.  It might even cure Daniel of Mahlermadness, it's that boring.

Jens has pointed to MTT and Kubelik; I agree about MTT but haven't heard the Kubelik.   Personally I like both Zinman and Gergiev in the Third, but  others disagree.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 18, 2012, 07:12:29 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 18, 2012, 11:51:59 AMWhat's the best M3 on Naxos Music Library? I just gave tries to Tennstedt live '86 on ICA (brass lines after the dread drumbeats were too blurred and sloppy) and Nagano on Apex (everything chillingly precise) but was frustrated with each after just 2 minutes. Other options: Wit/Radio, Litton/Dallas, Abravanel, Rogner, Rattle, Tennstedt (studio), Tilson Thomas, Haitink (Chicago), Schwarz (Liverpool), Kubelik (Bavaria '67), Bychkov, Gielen, Mitropoulos, Gergiev, Nott, a few others.

I don't know many of these...
Rattle made a strong first impression, and it's the best-sounding of his Bournemouth recordings, but I'm a bit tired of its straining for novelty, and now return to Tennstedt studio, my favourite.
Bertini's attempt was for me the low point of his cycle - everything was just far ... too ... slow ....
I haven't heard Wit, but imagine it would be pretty good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ggluek on July 18, 2012, 07:39:47 PM
This has probably been covered here before, but I can't go down through all 133 pages to find it, so here goes:

In my circle, we generally agree that much as we appreciate what Deryk Cooke did to make the 10th listenable, we all think we could produce a better, more Mahlerian, orchestration.  So it's been instructive that over the past decade other versions have now been recorded -- Clinton Carpenter's, Joe Wheeler's, Barshai's, both Mazetti versions, etc.

So my question is:  What do you all think?  Do any of them send you more than either Cooke -- even realizing that many of them are by less than top rate bands?  I'll save my opinion until I've heard some of yours'.

geoge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 18, 2012, 07:45:47 PM
I've heard Wheeler and Barshai.
The performance for Wheeler wasn't great, and some of the orchestration just sounded wrong to me.
Barshai added percussion, which in theory I am in favour of, but he tends to pile on all the percussion near the beginning of each movement, which is not idiomatic at all. I'd like to hear Cooke with (tastefully) added percussion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2012, 07:54:45 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 18, 2012, 07:12:29 PM
I haven't heard Wit, but imagine it would be pretty good.

Wit M3 was what I heard today 'cuz I had a craving and needed satisfaction fast. Excellent conducting - exactly the way I want the symphony done, all through - but you really, really yearn for a better orchesta and more sophisticated sound. The final movement, sadly, has the Katowice strings+trumpets sounding thin and ragged. I saw Warsaw/Wit do M3 live in '11, and it was the most awe-inspiring feat of orchestral playing (& band-conductor synergy) I've ever witnessed. I had to remind myself mid-symphony that it was really happening. Would kill for even a radio broadcast.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 18, 2012, 08:20:49 PM
Quote from: ggluek on July 18, 2012, 07:39:47 PM
This has probably been covered here before, but I can't go down through all 133 pages to find it, so here goes:

In my circle, we generally agree that much as we appreciate what Deryk Cooke did to make the 10th listenable, we all think we could produce a better, more Mahlerian, orchestration.  So it's been instructive that over the past decade other versions have now been recorded -- Clinton Carpenter's, Joe Wheeler's, Barshai's, both Mazetti versions, etc.

So my question is:  What do you all think?  Do any of them send you more than either Cooke -- even realizing that many of them are by less than top rate bands?  I'll save my opinion until I've heard some of yours'.

geoge

Wheeler--mmph.  Carpenter--failed for me.  Don't know if this was the conductor's fault (Zinman) or the orchestrator, since apparently Zinman's is the first recording of that version.  Barshai--sort of liked. 
Have not heard either Mazetti version.

But  I find Cooke to satisfy me most of the time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 18, 2012, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2012, 12:01:38 PM
I haven't heard it yet but have ordered Bychkov (twice...the first seller reneged on the deal). Tony Duggan raved about it, calling it the best "modern" Third...or something like that.

I have it. The first time I listened to it I felt let down (not sure why). The second time I listened I had quite an enjoyable time. Definitely want to hear it again.

Great sonics, for one thing. And whether by Bychkov's hand or the characteristics of the orchestra influencing things (or both) it's quite a colorful performance. Something I admire in general. 

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 19, 2012, 02:12:34 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on July 18, 2012, 07:45:47 PM
I've heard Wheeler and Barshai.
The performance for Wheeler wasn't great, and some of the orchestration just sounded wrong to me.
Barshai added percussion, which in theory I am in favour of, but he tends to pile on all the percussion near the beginning of each movement, which is not idiomatic at all. I'd like to hear Cooke with (tastefully) added percussion.

The real problem is that anyone wishing to improve on what exists is invariably held back by the fact that they can't take any valid extant attempts and work off that (because that would infringe on their copyright and is too expensive to bother with) and instead have to come up with novel solutions of their own, even if they aren't better at all. It's like if you wanted to improve the translation of a poem by just changing a handful of words of a fine extant translation, but aren't allowed to... so you have to surround your improvements with a gratuitously different new translation of the rest, too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on July 19, 2012, 05:23:34 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 19, 2012, 02:12:34 AMThe real problem is that anyone wishing to improve on what exists is invariably held back by the fact that they can't take any valid extant attempts and work off that (because that would infringe on their copyright and is too expensive to bother with) and instead have to come up with novel solutions of their own, even if they aren't better at all. It's like if you wanted to improve the translation of a poem by just changing a handful of words of a fine extant translation, but aren't allowed to... so you have to surround your improvements with a gratuitously different new translation of the rest, too.

OTOH, there shouldn't be anything preventing conductors from modifying these performing editions however they see fit.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ggluek on July 19, 2012, 07:08:38 PM
I'm not really sure you can copyright an orchestration.  Look at the various versions of Pictures at an Exhibition and note how much they steal from each other.

Also, Mahler's draft of the 10th did include marginal notations indicating some of the instrumentation, which the arrangers use as a guide -- but they're far from comprehensive.

Anyway, here are my thoughts:  Joe Wheeler's version is really uneven and doesn't move me much.  Carpenter's I liken to a pizza with everything on it -- he pours in everything but the kitchen sink -- which is fun, but not the version you want to listen to all the time.  Rudolph Barshai's sounds to me to be basically a further revision of Cooke II.  Mazetti I has merit, but suffers from the recording by Slatkin -- who seems to be a very unidiomatic Mahler conductor.

Which brings us to my personal winner:  Mazetti II.

It's almost hard to separate his achievement from the interpretation provided by Jesus Lopes-Cobos  (who?), who conducts the 2nd-tier Cincinnati Symphony as if it were one of the world's great orchestras.  By itself, it's a wonderful performance.  The Purgatorio is one of the best I've ever heard.  The "dance band" passages in the 4th movement are absolutely frighteningly delightful.  And the final pages of the finale are heartrending.  All in all, it's (unexpectedly) one of my favorite performances.

I find the Mazetti reconstruction much more Mahlerian than either Cooke.  For one, he gets rid of the damn xylophone in the 4th movement.  The shrill passages are less so (and Mahler was never shrill).  And does something I've always wanted to hear:  He combines the drumstrokes that end the 4th movement and begin the 5th, and uses a single stroke to segue one into the other.  (I've wondered about that since I first heard Ormandy's premiere Cooke recording in the late 1960s.)

It's a version and a performance that's much worth hearing and I recommend it.

Another thing about the 10th that strikes me after hearing all these recordings is how bullet-proof the first movement is.  It's not my favorite Mahler movement, but hearing so many different takes on it, I was surprised to note that not one of them was bad or sounded less than convincing.

george
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2012, 12:45:28 AM
Quote from: ggluek on July 19, 2012, 07:08:38 PM
I'm not really sure you can copyright an orchestration.  Look at the various versions of Pictures at an Exhibition and note how much they steal from each other.

Also, Mahler's draft of the 10th did include marginal notations indicating some of the instrumentation, which the arrangers use as a guide -- but they're far from comprehensive.


Obviously you can use anything that's fallen out of copyright protection. But just as naturally any creative work is under copyright... do you think you can just take the Cooke/Matthews work and run with it? (Incidentally I'm not making any of this up, it's David Matthews who alerted me to the problem in the first place.)

Quote from: eyeresist on July 19, 2012, 05:23:34 PM
OTOH, there shouldn't be anything preventing conductors from modifying these performing editions however they see fit.

This, I should think, would indeed be their prerogative, but they couldn't publish a version, if it relied on work previously done by others. Slatkin, for example, makes claims that Mazetti II is really partly/mostly his work. (See Mahler Survey, 10/2 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-2.html))
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 24, 2012, 05:59:39 PM
Quote from: ggluek on July 19, 2012, 07:08:38 PM
I'm not really sure you can copyright an orchestration.  Look at the various versions of Pictures at an Exhibition and note how much they steal from each other.

Also, Mahler's draft of the 10th did include marginal notations indicating some of the instrumentation, which the arrangers use as a guide -- but they're far from comprehensive.

Anyway, here are my thoughts: (...)

I find the Mazetti reconstruction much more Mahlerian than either Cooke.  For one, he gets rid of the damn xylophone in the 4th movement.  The shrill passages are less so (and Mahler was never shrill).  And does something I've always wanted to hear:  He combines the drumstrokes that end the 4th movement and begin the 5th, and uses a single stroke to segue one into the other.  (I've wondered about that since I first heard Ormandy's premiere Cooke recording in the late 1960s.)

It's a version and a performance that's much worth hearing and I recommend it.

Another thing about the 10th that strikes me after hearing all these recordings is how bullet-proof the first movement is.  It's not my favorite Mahler movement, but hearing so many different takes on it, I was surprised to note that not one of them was bad or sounded less than convincing.

george

George, your instincts are right about the initial Adagio.

All the rest is open to conjectures, even the Purgatorio movement that Mahler did finish - at the time. How long would it ave taken him to get back to it in the context of a finished tenth? All these putative 'finished' tenths should be taken for what they are: sincere attempts  by dedicated scholars to enter into a great composer's mind and figure out what 'might have been'. The Bible got it right: on the seventh day God took off his shoes and called it a day. Who would have guessed that at bednight time on the sixth day?

In the end, all that counts is the communicative power of the interpretation of whatever version of the tenth the conductor has put his faith in.

Tip: try to download the Goldschmidt version. This might solve the issue of the transition between IV and V. Not a matter of conjecture, but of conviction.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 29, 2012, 05:49:30 PM
I listened twice to the Ashkenazy Czech Philharmonic version of the 6th symphony (SACD on the Exton label). It had been a long while since a version of that work made me sit up and take notice. This one did, in spades. It has a commitment, a burning desire to communicate that sweeps all before it. Many times over the course of the recording I was surprised by some detail that had never emerged with such force and clarity. The scherzo in particular was a revelation. In Ashkenazy's hands it becomes as feverish and bold as that of the ninth. Wind balances are astonishing, a stunning presence. The first and last movements are simply staggering. Climaxes explode with immense force. It's not just a matter of decibels. The rage behind the gesture is intimidating. A great listening experience. 77 minutes including repeat in I. That's about 10 minutes less than Zander, Sinopoli, Farberman and a few others. Timings are 21:17  / 12:16 / 15:43 / 27:58.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 05, 2012, 06:56:07 PM
I listened to some of Sony's Bruno Walter edition over the weekend.

[asin]B006XOBFTM[/asin]

So far the surprise highlight has been the wayfarer songs. Walter's tempos as usual tend to be quick, sometimes too quick, but Mildred Miller's singing is wonderful! Simple, sensitive, beautiful tone, very touching. (And unlike certain others, she actually sounds female.) Till now, I have preferred baritone recordings. It's nice to finally have an alternative :)

I enjoyed Walter's broad tempos for the middle movements of the 9th, but the finale somehow sounds rushed, even though it is several minutes slower than his Vienna recording, which sounded fine to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 05, 2012, 07:05:30 PM
I initially thought Walter's speeds for the 9th's finale were quite swift, but I was soon won over by the seamlessness he imparts to the movement. There's always a danger of the musical argument breaking down in sections, but not so here. Walter's warmth and powerful embrace fuse to make this an intense, very emotional experience. I recall having been blaaah'd by that 9th as a teenager. I now find it simply perfect. This 9th is my favourite. The slow, 'lunar landscape' portions of the scherzo are also wonderfully done. Orchestral playing is good and the sound is fantastic even not considering the age of the recording.

I have the box too, but haven't listened  to the Wayfarer Songs yet, so thanks for that interesting preview !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 05, 2012, 07:22:57 PM
Quote from: André on August 05, 2012, 07:05:30 PMWalter's warmth and powerful embrace fuse to make this an intense, very emotional experience. I recall having been blaaah'd by that 9th as a teenager. I now find it simply perfect. This 9th is my favourite. The slow, 'lunar landscape' portions of the scherzo are also wonderfully done. Orchestral playing is good and the sound is fantastic even not considering the age of the recording.

I've read people slighting the Columbia orchestra, but have no complaints, and can only put the put-downs down to snobbery.

Re the 9th, I do worry that I don't really seem to like the first movement these days.  I'll have to review a number of performances and see who can make it work for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 06, 2012, 05:11:37 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on August 05, 2012, 07:22:57 PM
I've read people slighting the Columbia orchestra, but have no complaints, and can only put the put-downs down to snobbery.

Re the 9th, I do worry that I don't really seem to like the first movement these days.  I'll have to review a number of performances and see who can make it work for me.

Hmm, reading this you made me realize that I've never really heard a performance of the first movement that's gripped me or moved me in the way the other movements do.  There's no drunken oompah band playing like there is in the middle movements; there's no ascent to heaven or slow glide to nothingness (depending on the conductor) like the last movement.  The only part of that sticks out for me is the fragmentary motives which begin the symphony;  otherwise the first movement hits me mostly as setting the scene or establishing the atmosphere.    It's preparatory to the rest,  allowing one to acclimate to the emotional surges that come later in the symphony.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 06, 2012, 05:29:12 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 06, 2012, 05:11:37 PM
Hmm, reading this you made me realize that I've never really heard a performance of the first movement that's gripped me or moved me in the way the other movements do.  There's no drunken oompah band playing like there is in the middle movements; there's no ascent to heaven or slow glide to nothingness (depending on the conductor) like the last movement.  The only part of that sticks out for me is the fragmentary motives which begin the symphony;  otherwise the first movement hits me mostly as setting the scene or establishing the atmosphere.    It's preparatory to the rest,  allowing one to acclimate to the emotional surges that come later in the symphony.

For me its generally the opposite feeling, that the II, III, and IV movs. don't measure up to the first movement. The last movement almost does, but not quite. That said, I'm obsessed with the Mahler 9 and have probably a hundred or so recordings of it!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on August 06, 2012, 05:34:09 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 06, 2012, 05:29:12 PM
That said, I'm obsessed with the Mahler 9 and have probably a hundred or so recordings of it!

I once knew a priest - Requiescat in pace - who had the same obsession.  He told me once he had "every" recording of the work, and would travel almost anywhere - within a few hundred miles - to hear it live.  Living in Toledo, that opened up everything from Chicago to Pittsburgh and Detroit to Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on August 06, 2012, 06:06:28 PM
Last night I listened to the Neumann/Leipzig recording of the 9th (from the Brilliant box) - or bits of it! I was called away before the first movement finished, so have no idea how that turned out. Later listened to the finale (while ironing) - started well, but then he started doing some things I didn't expect, including taking some quite rapid tempos. That broke the mood for me. He managed to slow down again for the ending, but then the last chord was short and stopped abruptl

I've been contemplating the EMI Klemperer box for a while. I'm not a huge fan of his 2nd, as the finale doesn't work for me, but I'd like to hear some individual takes on the other symphonies, and see what he does with the 9th first movement - presumably less heaving about than most, which I think might work well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 06, 2012, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 06, 2012, 05:29:12 PM
For me its generally the opposite feeling, that the II, III, and IV movs. don't measure up to the first movement. The last movement almost does, but not quite. That said, I'm obsessed with the Mahler 9 and have probably a hundred or so recordings of it!

I have, what with complete cycles and one offs,  about thirty, possibly a little over that now.  My favorite is Zinman, because of the finale.    But this thread has prompted me to change my listening plans and put on Mitropolous conducting  from Jan 1960, out of the Mitropolous Mahler (West Hill Radio Archives) set I just got, for a first listen.  Also in the pile is the Sinopoli cycle and the Neumann eyeresist wasn't taken with.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 08, 2012, 05:55:11 PM
The 9th is my favourite Mahler symphony. I don't have as many versions of it than some of you guys. Maybe a couple dozens. I like it in many different ways, but the scherzo and finale is the crux of the work for me. The way the main theme of IV is softly heralded in the 'moonscape' episode of III always breaks my heart.  It's the most sheerly beautiful symphonic creation I know.

Some conductors underline its toughness, others its beauty, or its classical perfection. Still others see in it an hymn to the afterlife. I listened to it about 20 times in the past 12 months.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 11, 2012, 06:44:22 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 06, 2012, 06:29:17 PM
I have, what with complete cycles and one offs,  about thirty, possibly a little over that now.  My favorite is Zinman, because of the finale.    But this thread has prompted me to change my listening plans and put on Mitropolous conducting  from Jan 1960, out of the Mitropolous Mahler (West Hill Radio Archives) set I just got, for a first listen.  Also in the pile is the Sinopoli cycle and the Neumann eyeresist wasn't taken with.

Jeffrey, I agree the Zinman M9 is quite extraordinary in each movement, and it holds a high place in my fav M9s. Zinman doesn't play down the finale climax as many recent accounts do, and there is no compression because of the low level recording, the loud sections shine in detail without distortion.

Horenstein's account (with the LSO) on the Music and Arts label has my favorite finale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 11, 2012, 05:49:03 PM
Some time ago I,purchased a 6CD set on the Memories label. Live performances where Klaus Tennstedt conducts the LPO in M3 (1986, not the commercial EMI) , 4 (Boston , 1977), 5 (COA 1990), 6 (NYPhil, 1986) and 7 (Cleveland Orchestra, 1978).

This is my first go at the set, starting with the 3rd. Waltraud Meier is the alto soloist. She's not really an alto, but she scores well in the musicality and expressivity departments. I was disappointed early on with the conductor though. This is a rather cautious traversal, as if the orchestra was not familiar with the score, and conductor and orchestra with each other. This is of course not the case, Tennnstedt having been the LPO Music Director for some years already when this was done in the Royal Festival Hall. Horn flubs abound in III and IV, where they are cruelly exposed, phrasing is unoriginal, tempi are resolutely middle of the road. The first movement sounds slow and tepid even though it clocks in at a standard 32:30. II passes by unnoticed. III is marred by insecure execution. IV and V are good because Meier raises the emotional température. But as I was starting to think these two movements were really excellent, it dawned on me that Meier sounds great because the rest is so neutral, non-committal. Truth to tell, this is unusually emotive, operatic singing. And very good, too.

Kudos to the wonderful boys choir in V (Eton College lads), who make a pure, joyous sound, and phrase like angels. No eyebrows were raised by the upward scoops some oboists use in IV. That's not in Tennstedt's mahlerian vocabulary. Goldschmidt and Rattle use this trick to astounding effect. The score is somewhat obscure at that point. Maybe because of the standardized music-making on display here I missed hearing it.

The final movement is one of those ethereal, full-blooded adagios Mahler penned as if they had been lovingly cooked up in heaven by the finest seraphims. Tennstedt is very emotional here, ejaculating prematurely midway through (starting around 11:45), after which you expect the movement to quickly expire. But no, it goes on. Not to imply that it lacks anything, but the effect is that of the whole thing starting over again. Lack of flow was the chief defect of I. In VI the feeling is that of a fervent prayer intoned in multiple strophes, something I'd expect - and welcome - in the Orthodox tradition. The end is suitably grand, and the orchestra wells up nicely before the dim. passage that heralds the solar coda. The end is abrupt, an effect I don't care for. Where is the rainbow of sound, Entrance into Valhalla-like that should propulse the orchestra into ffff inextinguishable, blinding light ?

Next on disc 2 is the 4th symphony with the BSO and Phyllis Bryn-Julson. Will report later.

Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 11, 2012, 07:56:28 PM
Andre, I am unfamiliar with that set and I appreciate your report!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 11, 2012, 08:31:37 PM
Well, here's some more ( the rest will be for some other day :D) .

The fourth symphony is a better integrated performance, and better played too. Generally speaking I tend to prefer interpretations that bring out the chamber music quality of this work, esp. in the first two  movements. For what it's worth, I think that productions that are miked close do just that, whereas more natural engineering produces a generalised sound world. IOW I welcome technical fakes here  :D.

Boston Symphony Hall is one of the best halls anywhere in the world, but I've heard more exciting sound in  broadcasts from Munch's time (1950s to early 60s) than this. In Leinsdorf's tenure the sound was prone to blast. Then in the late 60s and early 70s DGG engineers caught the orchestra's sound to perfection. Just for the sound factor I still hold some DG BSO recordings of the period as benchmarks of orchestral  sound. All this to say that this Tennstedt 4th is good enough but rather too distant and homogenized in sound. Wish that the mikes had captured the orchestra's principal chairs closer. In short this is a good 4th, with a surprisingly fast I and a very nice interpretation from soprano Bryn-Julson. I didn't expect much, knowing her primarily for her Sibelius, Schoenberg and Dallapicola - not exactly harbingers of  idiomatic folk-derived mahlerian vocal writing. She is indeed very wordy in delivery - you could learn German just listening to her enunciate the text. But she is also very musical and fresh-sounding. I just wish the sound was more immediate. As an interpretation I was reminded of Solti's early 60s Concertgebouw recording, my introduction to the world of Mahler. In terms of sound it's totally different.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 12, 2012, 04:07:15 AM
Quote from: André on August 11, 2012, 08:31:37 PM
Well, here's some more ( the rest will be for some other day :D) .

I hope it won't be too long before you report on the Cleveland Seventh. Is the exact date given? Mrs. Rock and I attended the Saturday performance, March 25th.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 12, 2012, 05:24:10 AM
Quote from: André on August 08, 2012, 05:55:11 PM
The way the main theme of IV is softly heralded in the 'moonscape' episode of III always breaks my heart.  It's the most sheerly beautiful symphonic creation I know.


+1
I completely agree, Andre, hauntingly beautiful. If pushed, those would be my favourite movements of the symphony too, although I do love the entire piece so incredibly much. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 12, 2012, 08:39:36 AM
Andre mentioned in the "Conductors" thread:
Quote from: André on July 15, 2012, 09:59:03 AM
Berthold Goldschmidt introduced that effect in the alto solo movement of the 3rd symphony. Apparently the score has an ambiguous indication at that point, something that translates as 'pulling up'. That Goldschmidt performance (LSO ca. 1960) is available on The Metrognome website. It is rather extraordinary, although in very variable,sound. Apparently Rattle was familiar with it and believes this is the true way to play that oboe solo.

Wow, I'm currently listening to Mahler's 3rd conducted by Goldschmidt, and it IS extraordinary indeed, the phrasing in the opening bars sound different than I've ever heard, and that's just the beginning of one of the most convincing M3's I've ever experienced. It certainly doesn't pull any punches. The color of the orchestration is particularly highlighted throughout.



8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 12, 2012, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 12, 2012, 04:07:15 AM
I hope it won't be too long before you report on the Cleveland Seventh. Is the exact date given? Mrs. Rock and I attended the Saturday performance, March 25th.

Sarge

Give me 75  minutes. The disc just started. This one can't be criticized for distant sound. It's extremely lively, bordering on shrillness. Plenty of hiss too ( 3rd also had an unusually high level of hiss, but that's something I quickly adjust to).

The box has no notes, just the discs in plastic sleeves. The back cover mentions «23-25 March 1978 Severence Hall Cleveland Live». You can tell by the spelling mistake that this is a rather careless production. They probably had that set of dates as an indication without bothering to check which evening the tape was from. Do you recall if your March 25 concert was taped? Normally the mics dangling from the ceiling are pretty obvious. Funny, as all the other performances in the set have a single date.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 12, 2012, 11:59:19 AM
Quote from: André on August 12, 2012, 11:32:40 AM
The box has no notes, just the discs in plastic sleeves. The back cover mentions «23-25 March 1978 Severence Hall Cleveland Live». You can tell by the spelling mistake that this is a rather careless production. They probably had that set of dates as an indication without bothering to check which evening the tape was from. Do you recall if your March 25 concert was taped? Normally the mics dangling from the ceiling are pretty obvious. Funny, as all the other performances in the set have a single date.

With the caveat that memory is hazy after 35 years, I seem to recall microphones at every concert we attended in the 1977-80 timeframe (dozens). I know the local radio station, WCLV, taped every program for later broadcast (what treasures they must have in the archives!). Whether they taped every concert in any given week, I don't know.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 12, 2012, 03:16:46 PM
Klaus Tennstedt conducing the Cleveland Orchestra in the 7th symphony. Live broadcast from Severance Hall in March 1978.

A very, very different experience than the good and very good 3rd and 4th symphonies heard in that Memories set. A certain sense of caution informed the LPO 3, whereas the 4th was properly bouncy and wide-eyed, but similarly prone to make sure that everything was in place. Lack of rehearsal time in Boston? In any case, this 7th is a Yahoo performance. From the get go the orchestra adopts a singularly bold, ringing and edge-of-seat approach to the score. The 7th is a kaleidoscopic display of orchestral colours, from the very dark to the shrill and garish. The musical text itself is like a collage.

The arch-like structure is sophisticated. So what is a conductor to make of this, a very coherent structure, music that constantly alternates between the droll, tipsy, raucous, ghostly, somber, all clad in the most outlandish orchestration ever thought of by Mahler? To the cowbells of the 6th he adds prominent parts for the mandolin and triangle. To top it off, the composer displays the most virtuosic wind and brass writing he had yet come up with.

Critics of the work usually accuse the composer of trying to hide the paucity of his ideas and the disjointed nature of the musical phrases under a garish display of colours and orchestral fireworks. Plenty of noise and very little music. Bull manure of course. If ever Mahler composed a work as if in a trance, totally free from musical conventions, this is it. It's not easy to bring off simply because it's hard to find an aesthetic angle that will work through 75 minutes without having to change gears in mid-argument. IOW you can't present the 7th as a'classical' work. Something's got to give.

What I hear Tennstedt do here is to hold the score tightly together while entrusting his players with the bulk of the performance's 'face'. Like an improvised dialogue, sometimes zany, sometimes amorous, ubuesque, scary, whatever fits the argument. An impromptu concerto for orchestra within a symphonic structure. I think it's a brilliant conception. Things go out the window in the process, but Tennstedt clearly has his eyes on the screwball last movement as the key to the whole work. We all know how it starts, with that volley of timpani and yodeling horns. Here it's dangerously tipsy, chaotic (in feeling, not in execution). It's hard to think of an orchestra that would have been game to let it all out like this. Certainly not in Boston!

It's not an unqualified success. The sound is very shrill, acidic and almost certainly do not present the orchestra's timbres accurately. Through the hiss and garish sound I do hear an exceptionally strong execution. Strings are bold and really take the listener for a ride. Trumpets scream unpleasantly, but I'm sure it's the sound. Horns are fantasticabulous throughout. Percussion have a field day, but here the engineering plays havoc. Sometimes the timps and bass drum are slighted whereas the pair of mics placed on each side of the triangle player definitely are killing the results through overexposure. What are supposed to be cowbells sound like Uncle Roger fumbling in his toolbox. The salient feature of the execution thoughout is the incredible playing of the wind section. What a band! Impossible not to be exhilarated by the incredible colours and personality brought at the beginning of the first Nachtmusik. Makes me think of the Critics section in Don Quixote. When it's well done you almost laugh out loud.

A couple of interpretive conductorial choices that warrant attention: a singularly punchy view of the accents in the score: trenchant, bold sforzandos. In the schattenhaft scherzo Tennstedt brings out the disjointed waltz rythm to the fore. It sounds like Petrouchka walked into the wrong score after having smoked some really good stuff.

It's not an everyday version. IMO it presupposes one knows the work well. Possibly through readings by trusted curators of the Mahler idiom such as Haitink COA or Kubelik. And let's not forget that the sound is definitely sub par. IMO it seriously distorts what must have been a glorious sounding orchestral experience.

EDIT: The timings for this 7th are 21:03 / 15:08 / 09:12 / 12:24 / 16:43. Total duration = 74:30.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 14, 2012, 05:25:15 PM
Klaus Tennstedt conducting the 5th symphony with the KCOA on December 9, 1990. This very same broadcast appears in the official KCOA Anthology, volume 4. I haven't heard it, but another poster who is currently going through the box lauds the sound without reservation. This must obviously be from good, official tapes. The Memories set I listened it from is probably not legit and if I can say so, it sounds like it. No decent modern radio tape would offer such a level of hiss, and the whole orchestra seems to ne playing under a thick veil of gaze.

I've listened to this work in the Concertgebouw a few years ago with another GMG poster (2009?) and I'm glad that both sound and execution were so much better than here. The first trumpet must have had an off day. The whole thing sounds tired and cautious, possibly due to Tennstedt's low-key, slow approach. His Mahler 5th simmers emotionally while it should boil and sizzle. The first two movements are deathly undramatic and the work almost never recovers. The Scherzo is similarly lumpish but the horn playing is good. The Adagietto proceeds at a snail's pace but features some beautiful string tone and great harp playing. The Finale is very good, if you have read that far and wonder about it.

Even in excellent sound I don't think I'd warm up to this. Timings are 14:40, 15:50, 18:35, 12:10 and 14:50, total over 76 minutes.  That's 5-10 minutes more than my favoured interpretations. Tme not well spent IMO. Mind you, I have an almost 80 minute version under Farberman, and love it. It boasts what is probably the most beautiful sound ever accorded to this symphony.

This Tennstedt set is proving disappointing. Only the 7th so far sounds like it was a special performance, played at the top level.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 17, 2012, 04:12:46 PM
Ok, so I fimished the Tennstedt box on a high note: The 6th symphony is played by the New York Philharmonic. It's from an October 1986 concert. I suspect that the well-heeled patrons of the Phil must have returned home quite shaken.

It's very infortunate that the sound is so bad. It's very wide ranging, but the engineering has been 'equalized' to make everything sound at the same relentless fff. Chamber music passages blast from the loudspeakers while the fortissimos suddenly recoil to a transistor radio level. Infuriating as it is, the ear adjusts and what comes through is a searingly intense, tragic intepretation of immense power. The orchestra surpass themselves ( the NYP can be a crass band when they are 'off'). Incredible double basses at the beginning, fantastic brass throughout, luminous strings and winds in the andante. Tremendous control from the podium.

If another mastering of this exists I'd like to hear it. The exact date is October 23, 1996.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2012, 07:29:17 AM
Thanks, André, for the Tennstedt reviews. A pity about the sound quality. I'd love to hear that Cleveland Seventh in good sound.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 18, 2012, 07:41:45 AM
Yes Andre, I appreciate that! Thanks from me too!


At the moment, I'm listening to Horenstein conduct the 3rd from a broadcast tape in 1960 with Helen Watts, Highgate School Choir, Orpington Junior Singers London Symphony Chorus and Orchestra Royal Festival Hall, London. This of course is not the Unicorn CD performance from 1970.

I LOVE Horenstein's 1960 version much better than his 1970, although the sound is mono and not studio quality, it's got an awesome presence! And the performance has more excitement and drive.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on August 18, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
Here is the link for the new Blind Comparison for Mahler's 1st symphony, which shall be starting next week. If you want to take part, please place a post on the thread! From the 24 recordings I have selected, I think this is going to be a pretty thrilling comparison! :D http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20853.msg652953/topicseen.html#msg652953
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 18, 2012, 06:10:39 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 18, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
Here is the link for the new Blind Comparison for Mahler's 1st symphony, which shall be starting next week. If you want to take part, please place a post on the thread! From the 24 recordings I have selected, I think this is going to be a pretty thrilling comparison! :D http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20853.msg652953/topicseen.html#msg652953

Hi Maddie :D. Unfortunately technical contingencies forbid me to enter the sweepstakes. My music room has just that: a conventional sound system. I listen music from here, although I stay connected to GMG and your fantastic thread through my IPad. My computer is upstairs and its sonic output is decidedly low-end. It would be hard to distinguish between Mantovani and Giulini, the WP and 101 Strings (you're probably too young to catch that one ;)).

But I read all the posts in it and relish all the comments I read. You know what? Forced to comment on an unknown recording, your thread's posters suddenly become discursive, inventive and imaginative when it comes to describing their response to the recordings. Most of them are normally content to post a commentless picture in the 'What are you listening?' thread  :P.  Kudos, for this is very, very nice. Maybe some of our veterans will gain confidence in their reviewer's abilities. Trust your guts, guys. 98% of the time they give you the right time of the day  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 18, 2012, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 18, 2012, 07:41:45 AM
Yes Andre, I appreciate that! Thanks from me too!


At the moment, I'm listening to Horenstein conduct the 3rd from a broadcast tape in 1960 with Helen Watts, Highgate School Choir, Orpington Junior Singers London Symphony Chorus and Orchestra Royal Festival Hall, London. This of course is not the Unicorn CD performance from 1970.

I LOVE Horenstein's 1960 version much better than his 1970, although the sound is mono and not studio quality, it's got an awesome presence! And the performance has more excitement and drive.

Thanks for this, Leo. I've been hovering around that 1960 download for months, figuring it must be half-formed, less confidently executed and deficient sounding in comparison to the 1970 recording (my first ever Mahler purchase, on a Nonesuch LP  twofer with very attractive psychedelic art cover ;)) . I'll plunge and relish.

I should have known: the ear-opening Goldschmidt LSO from the same period is one of the milestones in Mahler interpretation history. And Horenstein hailed Goldschmidt's conception. When it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 19, 2012, 09:43:23 AM
Quote from: André on August 18, 2012, 06:21:48 PM
Thanks for this, Leo. I've been hovering around that 1960 download for months, figuring it must be half-formed, less confidently executed and deficient sounding in comparison to the 1970 recording (my first ever Mahler purchase, on a Nonesuch LP  twofer with very attractive psychedelic art cover ;)) . I'll plunge and relish.

I should have known: the ear-opening Goldschmidt LSO from the same period is one of the milestones in Mahler interpretation history. And Horenstein hailed Goldschmidt's conception. When it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Indeed! The Goldschmidt performance is ear-opening and fast becoming a treasured favorite personally. It sounds so new to my ears, a refreshing new I've haven't heard for the 3rd in quite some time.

8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 19, 2012, 09:47:59 AM
I'll cross my post from the Horenstein thread to the Mahler thread:


I am amazed to finally find a recording of Horenstein's Mahler 5, with the Berlin Philharmonic, live, August 31, 1961, Edinburgh Festival!

Expected poor sound, I was pleasantly surprised to hear the sound wasn't too bad. The blog I found this on has restored this recording really well:

http://metrognomemusic.blogspot.com/

I listened to it last night and was immediately taken with it. This performance captures all the dark orchestral effects like I haven't heard before, and the tempo holds it all together and time flys by. The BPO sound is incredible!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 19, 2012, 06:20:15 PM
From the 14-disc RCA box set of Stokowski stereo recordings, I've listened almost incredulously to the 2nd symphony. Recorded on 1974 with the LSO. Soloists are Brigitte Fassbaender and Margaret Price.

Stokowski has some definite ideas about tempos. Both for whole movements and tempo relationships within movements. The First movement for example is generally slow, massive, a truly pesante approach. Yet there are moments of spontaneous combustion when suddenly things fly at great speed with incredible urgency. It's not just a trick, these outbursts make total musical sense. Throughout the movement the tension is high, very high or incredibly high. The cascading octaves for full orchestra in the coda took me totally unawares and left me gasping for air - both times, a good sign.

The second movement is played straight and unsentimentally. The scherzo is also played stright, but with moments of great vehemence. The opening timpani tattoo is one such instance. The Urlicht is played quite fast, with little sense of mystery. No mystic profundity here. The fly in the ointment of this recording is the voice of Fassbaender. She has little resonance, is dry sounding and almost hooty of tone. No match for the many great altos that made their mark here.

The finale is a triumph. This movement can sound very sectional, like the first of symphony 3. The conductor must bind everything expertly with the big payoff clearly in mind. Everything follows logically here. The entrance of the soprano gives goose bumps not because of its otherworldliness (it's recorded a bit close) but because of the incredible performance of Margaret Price. What purity, what volume, what glorious sound on high! The choral parts are superb. Again the tension is masterfully gauged, the screws tightening with every passing minute. The final moments are cataclysmic. Unfortunately, just like the Haitink COA recording, the last chord sounds puny. At that point I would have welcomed some trickery from the engineers. Another slight regret: I couldn't hear the organ part. Maybe with earphones?

It has been a very long while indeed since I last heard a Resurrection pump up my blood pressure like that. I have seen reviews in the past and I had never gotten the impression that this recording figured high on anyone's list. I wonder why?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on August 19, 2012, 06:56:27 PM
Quote from: André on August 19, 2012, 06:20:15 PM

It has been a very long while indeed since I last heard a Resurrection pump up my blood pressure like that. I have seen reviews in the past and I had never gotten the impression that this recording figured high on anyone's list. I wonder why?

Because it's Stowkowski.  I think people don't think of him as being a Mahlerian.  (And he was--among other things, he conducted the American premiere of the Eighth.)

But you have at least persuaded me to put this set on the wish list.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 20, 2012, 04:19:13 AM
Quote from: André on August 18, 2012, 06:21:48 PM
....the 1970 recording (my first ever Mahler purchase, on a Nonesuch LP  twofer with very attractive psychedelic art cover ;))

What a coincidence! Horenstein's M3 was my first Mahler purchase too (circa early 1972)  8)  I still have the LPs (left click to enlarge):

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/P8200325_outside.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/P8200326_inside.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 26, 2012, 10:41:41 AM
Has anyone heard the Mahler 7, BPO broadcast from 1999, with Rattle conducting the M7? It's possibly my favorite Mahler performance, at least one of the most incredible in terms of exciting execution. Since coming across it I've been listening to it every Saturday afternoon. If it is true this performance got him the BPO job I can certainly believe it. I can't put words how profound this performance sounds, it will haunt me till my dying day.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 26, 2012, 11:57:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 20, 2012, 04:19:13 AM
What a coincidence! Horenstein's M3 was my first Mahler purchase too (circa early 1972)  8)  I still have the LPs (left click to enlarge):

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/P8200325_outside.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/P8200326_inside.jpg)


Sarge
Hey, I still have that LP set with the same cover! Still listen to it, too!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 26, 2012, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 26, 2012, 11:57:27 AM
Hey, I still have that LP set with the same cover! Still listen to it, too!

This LP has incredible sound compared to the Unicorn CD of the same recording!

I love it too  8)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on August 26, 2012, 01:37:48 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 26, 2012, 12:25:08 PM
This LP has incredible sound compared to the Unicorn CD of the same recording!

I love it too  8)
Don't have the CD but generally prefer analog sound. I like the CD cover art much better, however. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on August 26, 2012, 02:29:55 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 20, 2012, 04:19:13 AM
What a coincidence! Horenstein's M3 was my first Mahler purchase too (circa early 1972)  8)  I still have the LPs (left click to enlarge):
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/P8200325_outside.jpg)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/P8200326_inside.jpg)
Sarge

Thats pretty groovy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on August 26, 2012, 08:00:29 PM
Quote from: Leo K on August 26, 2012, 10:41:41 AM
Has anyone heard the Mahler 7, BPO broadcast from 1999, with Rattle conducting the M7? It's possibly my favorite Mahler performance, at least one of the most incredible in terms of exciting execution. Since coming across it I've been listening to it every Saturday afternoon. If it is true this performance got him the BPO job I can certainly believe it. I can't put words how profound this performance sounds, it will haunt me till my dying day.

I heard the same story. I generally don't like what Rattle does. Too finicky and unspontaneous. But if this concert secured him the BP job, it must have been really special. Has it ever been issued commercially?

I would probably choose something else to listen to every Saturday until my dying moment, though. Wait: isn't that a good subject for a new thread ?   ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on September 05, 2012, 04:59:45 AM
From Bertini's Mahler thread...

Quote from: Mirror Image on September 04, 2012, 09:11:36 PM
In my (more recent) traversal of Mahler cycles, one set rose above the crop and it was Abbado's on DG. I also liked Kubelik's a lot. One thing I look for in a cycle is consistency. I can't say your Inbal cycle did much for me. If anything, Inbal is a mediocre conductor who rarely rises above the occasion. Your other favorite Tennstedt is quite good, but I don't listen to it often. But, all of this said, I don't listen to Mahler much, but when I do Bertini, Kubelik, Abbado, and Chailly are within walking distance.

So what is it with Bertinis' Mahler that is so good, apart from the sound?  Can ANYONE who knows this let us me know.  What is it that Bertini does with Mahlers soundworld that makes listeners think it is so good?  I've not heard any particular phrases or movements which makes Bertinis release stand out at all.  Played well and sounding good is STILL not the essence of what Mahler was about.  This Bertini thing is doing my nut in, it has become necessary to find out just what I am missing in it...because if I am missing something, I will have to upgrade my ears.  Tonight I am going to do a personal blind listening test on the matter, so furious and confused I have become. 

QuoteInbal is a mediocre conductor...
A shocking statement.  He may not be first draft pick for the BPO or the VPO, but he did draw out interpretative elements in Mahler and does have the unplanned habit of making symphonic output something of a symphonic story.  Even his Bruckner set, especially the original 4rth, has a way about it (though it's not my favourite). 

LATER:  I have just found this quotation by Inbal himself on his Mahler:
"For me, Mahler's symphonies are a unity, one gigantic symphony in eleven movements, better still a single great novel with eleven chapters [...]".   That is exactly how he plays it, I've always said so, and I am amazed I was right about his approach.  But what does Bertini do?  He plays the symphonies.  But what else?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 05:29:41 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 05, 2012, 04:59:45 AM
From Bertini's Mahler thread...

So what is it with Bertinis' Mahler that is so good, apart from the sound?  Can ANYONE who knows this let us me know.  What is it that Bertini does with Mahlers soundworld that makes listeners think it is so good?  I've not heard any particular phrases or movements which makes Bertinis release stand out at all.  Played well and sounding good is STILL not the essence of what Mahler was about.  This Bertini thing is doing my nut in, it has become necessary to find out just what I am missing in it...because if I am missing something, I will have to upgrade my ears.  Tonight I am going to do a personal blind listening test on the matter, so furious and confused I have become. 
Well, I think in part it depends what you want from Mahler. I find Bernstein, for example, too hysterical or extreme for my Mahler preferences. He luxuriates over some things that I prefer he'd just get on with (too much angst). What this affects for me is the line and broad cohesion of the piece. Kondrashin is the one who helped me for this particular composer. I get the overarching lines with Kondrashin - he makes sense of the overall picture, allowing me to enjoy the details (which I can find frustrating sometimes when I don't feel the overall picture). I wonder if we would agree about what exactly the 'essence' of Mahler is anyway.

Bertini is, for me, similar to Kondrashin in this way. He plays it straight in such a way that I can 1) See the big picture, 2) Appreciate the details, and 3) Get massive pleasure from the music. I also like that in many of the slower movements - they have a nice balance, drawing out some beautiful lyricism. I love the Das Lied here, particularly the tenor (Heppner), who is glorious. The 8th is the other highlight for me (if one sticks to two).

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ataraxia on September 05, 2012, 05:32:40 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 05:29:41 AM
Well, I think in part it depends what you want from Mahler. I find Bernstein, for example, too hysterical or extreme for my Mahler preferences. He luxuriates over some things that I prefer he'd just get on with (too much angst). What this affects for me is the line and broad cohesion of the piece. Kondrashin is the one who helped me for this particular composer. I get the overarching lines with Kondrashin - he makes sense of the overall picture, allowing me to enjoy the details (which I can find frustrating sometimes when I don't feel the overall picture). I wonder if we would agree about what exactly the 'essence' of Mahler is anyway.

Bertini is, for me, similar to Kondrashin in this way. He plays it straight in such a way that I can 1) See the big picture, 2) Appreciate the details, and 3) Get massive pleasure from the music. I also like that in many of the slower movements - they have a nice balance, drawing out some beautiful lyricism. I love the Das Lied here, particularly the tenor (Heppner), who is glorious. The 8th is the other highlight for me (if one sticks to two).

Good post. Got me curious about Mahler again.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 05, 2012, 05:44:29 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 05, 2012, 04:59:45 AM
From Bertini's Mahler thread...

So what is it with Bertinis' Mahler that is so good, apart from the sound?  Can ANYONE who knows this let us me know.  What is it that Bertini does with Mahlers soundworld that makes listeners think it is so good?  I've not heard any particular phrases or movements which makes Bertinis release stand out at all.

You're right, I think. There's nothing in Bertini's Mahler that really stands out...I mean, nothing that I haven't heard from other conductors. Nothing terribly memorable. But there's nothing wrong with it either. As Neal says, it's Mahler played straight and in that respect it makes perhaps the best basic reference set, a set to get your Mahler bearings. And the sound is really good. I agree with you: you want more than that in Mahler but just luxuriating in the sound isn't bad  :) I think some of Bertini's Mahler dull and disappointing (his Sixth especially). Other performances (his Ninth, his Second) I find quite appealing if not earth-shattering (nothing like Lenny's Second or Karajan's Ninth). It's not a set I couldn't live without though. If I had to start discarding my box sets (I have 15), Bertini would be one of the first to go.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 05, 2012, 06:01:36 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 05, 2012, 04:59:45 AM
But what does Bertini do?  He plays the symphonies.  But what else?
Isn't that what he should do? Some of us admire that more than we like distortions imposed on the music by interventionist conductors who put their own stamp on it. That's not the same thing as conductors who reveal or emphasize elements usually overlooked. It's like the difference between HJ Lim and Wm. Kempff in the Beethoven sonatas...with, say, Goode as the guy who plays it straight but with consummate technique and attention to detail.

Though my preference these days tends toward conductors who savor the deliciousness of Mahler's wry sensitivity and get under the skin of his cultural cosmopolitanism and pantheistic spirituality--like Bernstein, Barbirolli, and MTT, for instance--there are very few with the temperament and experience to "draw out more Mahler" rather than to express more of the interventionist conductor's personality. And I have always enjoyed those who find Mahler offers quite enough of an emotional roller coaster on his own and have the humility to play the music relatively "straight" rather than burdening it with their need to express "themselves." Bertini is one of these, and he's a good enough Mahlerian to be an ardent advocate for ALL of the symphonies, getting them all pretty right and with none of the awfulness that mars many another conductor's cycle.

Finally, I was quite surprised when Bertini's 6th impressed me so favorably in Daniel's blind listening test recently. (Though I haven't listened to the whole thing through to see if it holds up as well as the samples suggested.)

Does that help you to understand why so many value his set so highly?  You don't have to agree with us in order to understand, right?

And it doesn't hurt that the set is probably the most consistently good one available at such a reasonable price, which is why it's so often recommended to Mahler newbies.

P.S.  FWIW I'm with Sarge in that it would probably be the first to go if I had to relinquish some of my complete cycles. I almost never listen to anything from it, having several other preferences for each of the other symphonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 05:39:13 PM
Bertini vs Inbal - Bertini is sometimes (or often) dull, but Inbal is always bland. He offers nothing beyond competence, as far as I can hear (I've heard his Mahler, Bruckner and Ravel). Bertini, by contrast, even when he is too stodgy, understands something of Mahler's essence and brings out the essential darkness and grit.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on September 05, 2012, 06:11:14 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 05:39:13 PM
Bertini vs Inbal - Bertini is sometimes (or often) dull, but Inbal is always bland. He offers nothing beyond competence, as far as I can hear (I've heard his Mahler, Bruckner and Ravel). Bertini, by contrast, even when he is too stodgy, understands something of Mahler's essence and brings out the essential darkness and grit.

Sad. Where is the essential darkness and grit?  WHERE???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 05, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 05:39:13 PM
Bertini vs Inbal - Bertini is sometimes (or often) dull, but Inbal is always bland. He offers nothing beyond competence, as far as I can hear (I've heard his Mahler, Bruckner and Ravel). Bertini, by contrast, even when he is too stodgy, understands something of Mahler's essence and brings out the essential darkness and grit.

In the Bertini thread, you said you felt that Inbal never rises to the occasion.  I wold turn that upside down and say that Inbal never falls beneath the occasion. 

Truth to tell, in Inbal's cycle there are no performances which I would point to as the "best recording of the ....Symphony ever made".  But they are all good--say, all of them A minuses is we were grading them school style.  Almost everyone other cycle is less consistent--there may be some A plus performances, but there are also some Bs and even Cs from time to time, so the overall "average grade" may be lower. (meaning of course cycles I've heard--at this point, that's Zinman, MTT, Gergiev, Tennstedt, Bertini, Inbal, Lenny I and Lenny II,  plus copious amounts of Abbado, Rattle,  and Boulez, and Levine's incomplete cycle.  Sinopoli sits in the "to be listened to" pile.)

Other cycles have some hits and misses.  Inbal doesn't have any hits, but he also has no misses, which in the end is just as important.

My one thorough listen to Bertini left me feeling his cycle is truly all over the place.  Some humdrum, some great, a few of them simply run of the mill.  Although it's been long enough since I listened, and will be long enough before I will listen again (for exramusical reasons) that I don't want to descend into vague details of what exactly I did and did not enjoy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 07:25:02 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 05, 2012, 07:13:05 PMIn the Bertini thread, you said you felt that Inbal never rises to the occasion.

That wasn't me.


Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 05, 2012, 07:13:05 PMTruth to tell, in Inbal's cycle there are no performances which I would point to as the "best recording of the ....Symphony ever made".  But they are all good--say, all of them A minuses is we were grading them school style....

For me the best description of Inbal's set is that favourite faintly damning phrase beloved of the critics, "good concert performances". I assume I don't need to explain what the phrase implies. When it comes to Mahler, I'd rather a conductor take risks and fail completely than merely rise to adequacy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 05, 2012, 07:41:12 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 07:25:02 PM


That wasn't me.


[Goes back to look]  Oh, yes, I see what it was.  Mirror Image John used the phrase, and you said you agreed with him. 

I suppose I'm either more accepting of Inbal or less forgiving of failure than you are....and I would not use the "good concert performance" phrase in relation to his cycle. 

Actually, I would, but that's because I tend to like 'concerto performances over studio recordings micromanages and massaged to perfection on paper. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 05, 2012, 08:17:25 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 05, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
In the Bertini thread, you said you felt that Inbal never rises to the occasion.  I wold turn that upside down and say that Inbal never falls beneath the occasion. 

Truth to tell, in Inbal's cycle there are no performances which I would point to as the "best recording of the ....Symphony ever made".  But they are all good--say, all of them A minuses is we were grading them school style.  Almost everyone other cycle is less consistent--there may be some A plus performances, but there are also some Bs and even Cs from time to time, so the overall "average grade" may be lower. (meaning of course cycles I've heard--at this point, that's Zinman, MTT, Gergiev, Tennstedt, Bertini, Inbal, Lenny I and Lenny II,  plus copious amounts of Abbado, Rattle,  and Boulez, and Levine's incomplete cycle.  Sinopoli sits in the "to be listened to" pile.)

Other cycles have some hits and misses.  Inbal doesn't have any hits, but he also has no misses, which in the end is just as important.

My one thorough listen to Bertini left me feeling his cycle is truly all over the place.  Some humdrum, some great, a few of them simply run of the mill.  Although it's been long enough since I listened, and will be long enough before I will listen again (for exramusical reasons) that I don't want to descend into vague details of what exactly I did and did not enjoy.

Re, your last paragraph: I'm with you here. I haven't listened to the whole set, just a couple of the symphonies. I can't recall which ones though. Contrary to my systematic habit, I put the discs back in their order in the box (1-11) instead of taking the latest one I listened to and putting it at the end of the set. I do recall having been very neutrally impressed, which is rather a letdown of sorts. I'm *almost*  sure I heard # 3 and 7, two of the most difficult works to carry off, to be sure.

Inbal impresses me as a natural Mahler interpreter. As Haitink première manière was (his 1960s COA recordings). And the sound of his orchestra is just what you'd hear in the concert hall. Inbal's Mahler is rather sibelian or nielsenian in outline. And his orchestra and sound engineers are both excellent. He's not mediocre, that's for sure. He's tasteful and thoughtful, two qualities I admire im Mahler conducting.

For some reason - is it genuinely artistic or is it tinted (tainted?) by marketing intentions, it seems every jewish conductor has conducted Mahler symphonies: Szell, Solti, Bernstein, Inbal, Bertini, Walter, Klemperer, Horenstein, Ormandy, Zinman, Goldschmidt, Ashekenazy, Tilson-Thomas, Barshai,  Oistrakh, Farberman, Slatkin among those in my collection, and I'm sure I miss a few. And yet, I can't find a common 'jewish style' in these conductors' aesthetic or interpretive style (the most obvious instance being in the first symphony). Inbal and Bernstein, Walter and Klemperer, Oistrakh and Szell for example sit at opposite poles of interpretative discourse. And even though some of those conductors have given us ne plus ultra performances, they aren't alone to have done so: Haitink, Kubelik, Karajan, Sinopoli, Giulini, even Colin Davis, Saraste or Scherchen all gave us great Mahler performances.

Which is why I think there's no reason to buy a full cycle for the conductor's POV. There is no such thing as a consistently 'true' Mahler style. Even from conductors you'd think to be naturally attuned to the style and idiom.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 09:28:48 PM
Quote from: Scots John on September 05, 2012, 06:11:14 PM
Sad. Where is the essential darkness and grit?  WHERE???
Ah, but there isn't as much darkness and grit as you think there is. Mahler doesn't have to be played this way and I am generally happier with it when the darkness doesn't overwhelm the piece. Thus, Bertini is not one you will enjoy.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 09:53:23 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 09:28:48 PMAh, but there isn't as much darkness and grit as you think there is. Mahler doesn't have to be played this way and I am generally happier with it when the darkness doesn't overwhelm the piece. Thus, Bertini is not one you will enjoy.

No, I'm not saying Bertini emphasises darkness and grit (I don't think anyone who'd actually heard his set would say that), but these elements are nonetheless present.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 10:12:54 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 09:53:23 PM
No, I'm not saying Bertini emphasises darkness and grit (I don't think anyone who'd actually heard his set would say that), but these elements are nonetheless present.
Errr, that's what I was saying.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 10:34:41 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 09:28:48 PMAh, but there isn't as much darkness and grit as you think there is. Mahler doesn't have to be played this way and I am generally happier with it when the darkness doesn't overwhelm the piece. Thus, Bertini is not one you will enjoy.

^ You seem to be saying that Bertini lets darkness etc overwhelm his Mahler performances.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 10:38:36 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 10:34:41 PM
^ You seem to be saying that Bertini lets darkness etc overwhelm his Mahler performances.
What I meant to say, clearly not very well, was that Mahler's symphonies don't have as much darkness and grit as Scot's John thinks there is. Thus, he won't like Bertini because Bertini doesn't go after this angle like some (and the music doesn't require it). SO we are very much in concord on this point I think.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 05, 2012, 10:44:05 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 10:38:36 PMWhat I meant to say, clearly not very well, was that Mahler's symphonies don't have as much darkness and grit as Scot's John thinks there is. Thus, he won't like Bertini because Bertini doesn't go after this angle like some (and the music doesn't require it). SO we are very much in concord on this point I think.

Ok, I think the confusion was because you didn't realise Scots John was merely being sarcastic at my expense :) I would assume that he doesn't like too much gritttttttt, given his liking of Inbal. How about a word from the man himself?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on September 05, 2012, 11:31:34 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2012, 10:38:36 PM
What I meant to say, clearly not very well, was that Mahler's symphonies don't have as much darkness and grit as Scot's John thinks there is. Thus, he won't like Bertini because Bertini doesn't go after this angle like some (and the music doesn't require it). SO we are very much in concord on this point I think.

$:)
WTF? I didn't say there was darkness and grit in Mahlers symphonies.
Someone else said that, and I asked where, in Bertinis output, it was.   I do not and have never advocated 'darkness and grit' with Mahler.  Well...maybe some darkness!   :D  Someone else used these descriptive attributes.  I questioned their authenticity in Bertinis Mahler and made an immature, weak effort at being sarcastic on the matter.  I deserve a boot in the wallabies from eyeresist for that, so...er...I apologise eyeresist.

'Darkness and grit'  in particular the 'grit' bit are not at all what I like to hear in Mahler. 
:'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 12:00:03 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 05, 2012, 11:31:34 PMI deserve a boot in the wallabies from eyeresist for that, so...er...I apologise eyeresist.

Thanks, but no apology is necessary. It's all part of the friendly rough-and-tumble of GMG.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 06, 2012, 01:16:42 AM
Quote from: Scots John on September 05, 2012, 11:31:34 PM
$:)
WTF? I didn't say there was darkness and grit in Mahlers symphonies.
Someone else said that, and I asked where, in Bertinis output, it was.   I do not and have never advocated 'darkness and grit' with Mahler.  Well...maybe some darkness!   :D  Someone else used these descriptive attributes.  I questioned their authenticity in Bertinis Mahler and made an immature, weak effort at being sarcastic on the matter.  I deserve a boot in the wallabies from eyeresist for that, so...er...I apologise eyeresist.

'Darkness and grit'  in particular the 'grit' bit are not at all what I like to hear in Mahler. 
:'(
Sorry. Your posts confuse me sometimes. I have difficulty figuring out when you are being funny, serious, sarcastic, etc. Nevertheless, I always enjoy your posts. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 06, 2012, 07:47:18 AM
My latest Mahler purchases arrived in yesterday's mail. With our older son visiting for a few days, I've chosen to spend my time otherwise than giving them a proper hearing, but I'm very much looking forward to giving them a go on the "serious" hi fi rig (as soon as I finish remodeling my wife's studio and get her furnishings out of the music room!):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dgizzevSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T0PUXbrWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I hear plenty of darkness in Mahler's symphonies, like the brooding, implacable, martial music of the 6th. I also hear his music as deeply authentic and not sentimental (in the pejorative sense used in relation to the arts) and that seems like "grit" to me (in the sense Charles Portis used it in True Grit). "Grit" is what's needed when the low strings dig in after nature's awakening in the 1st. That sort of grit is usually found under conductors with an ear sensitive to Mahler's brilliant orchestration who clarify the "chamber-music-like" texture of his polyphony instead of drowning it in a flood of syrupy sound.

Edit: corrected a glaring typo!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 06, 2012, 07:47:18 AMI also hear his music as deeply authentic and not sentimental (in the pejorative sense used in relation to the arts)

I think there is sentiment in this sense in Mahler, but it's included knowingly, in the same way he uses brash marches and folksy dances.

Currently contemplating getting Maazel's Mahler....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 06, 2012, 08:39:30 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 06, 2012, 07:43:32 PM
I think there is sentiment in this sense in Mahler, but it's included knowingly, in the same way he uses brash marches and folksy dances.

Currently contemplating getting Maazel's Mahler....
Sentiment ≠ sentimentality.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Augustine on September 12, 2012, 03:03:38 PM
The hardest Mahler symphony for me to come to terms with, apart from the 8th, was the 6th and I have finally found the ultimate Mahler 6th, in my opinion which features Sir Simon Rattle and the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. It's absolutely a savagely beautiful performance. It literally spent a week in my car. I had to download it from Amazon but did find a hard copy on CD. I even reviewed it there. It's a much slower pace than people might be used to but it yields many treasures from beginning to end.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on September 13, 2012, 08:34:15 PM
Kind of weird, but after listening to my favorite thing ever (aka the Adagio of the 9th), I don't get the same effect any more. This has been happening for a while even though I hardly ever listen to it any more.

The only time I actually feel something is in the quiet parts... I don't know if I've worn it out for a LONG time or something else. Would be nice to feel how I used to when listening to it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: Greg on September 13, 2012, 08:34:15 PMKind of weird, but after listening to my favorite thing ever (aka the Adagio of the 9th), I don't get the same effect any more. This has been happening for a while even though I hardly ever listen to it any more.

The only time I actually feel something is in the quiet parts... I don't know if I've worn it out for a LONG time or something else. Would be nice to feel how I used to when listening to it.

Sadly, it is possible to wear out a piece of music by overuse. There are a number of pieces I only listen to occasionally for just this reason. I'd suggest giving the piece a rest for a few months, or even a few years. Then maybe return with a recording you don't currently know.

In the meantime, there's always the finale of the 3rd :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 14, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 13, 2012, 08:56:12 PM
Sadly, it is possible to wear out a piece of music by overuse. There are a number of pieces I only listen to occasionally for just this reason. I'd suggest giving the piece a rest for a few months, or even a few years

Absolutely true. Harvested fields must lie fallow for a while, otherwise the soil will stop yielding the necessary nutrients. I overused works such as Turandot (many years ago my GMG moniker was Calaf :D), Parsifal or Schubert's Unfinished. I outgrew the Schubert 8th famine and can now listen to it any time for the great masterpiece it is. But I know I was many years without being able to listen to it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 15, 2012, 05:22:44 AM
Quote from: Greg on September 13, 2012, 08:34:15 PM
Kind of weird, but after listening to my favorite thing ever (aka the Adagio of the 9th), I don't get the same effect any more. This has been happening for a while even though I hardly ever listen to it any more.

The only time I actually feel something is in the quiet parts... I don't know if I've worn it out for a LONG time or something else. Would be nice to feel how I used to when listening to it.

The 9th is a piece I rarely listen to (well, at least with the outer movements). It is musical heaven to me, and my favourite piece (along with M6). I just can't listen to it too often, the effect it has on me cannot be given too often and I know that. But, when I do listen to it, which is probably around 2 - 4 times in a year, the emotional experience really is overwhelming and so incredibly heavenly and powerful.  0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 05:57:05 PM
I'm not taking part in the Mahler 1 thread, but over the weekend I conducted my own little survey of all the recordings in my collection (excepting Bernstein's NY, and Simonov from that old Brilliant box). I listened to some of the recordings twice for comparison purposes, but I confess I didn't always listen to all of the finale - it is IMO the least interesting of the four movements. Anyway, the results quite surprised me!

The top two were quite clear:

BERTINI
I'd previously not much bothered with this, but paying full attention I realised what I'd missed. This is the most "characteristic" of all the performances. The instruments sound fruitcake-rich and really invested in the piece, and Bertini's rubato and tempo changes show he's really thought about the structure of the piece as a whole. The ambience of the sound is also terrific.

INBAL
I've previously been unkind to Inbal's Mahler in this thread, but at least in this case I was in error. The sound isn't quite as miraculous as Bertini's, and the playing doesn't have the folksy-ness of the Koln orchestra, but otherwise this is top notch, a well played and really committed interpretation.

And the rest:

NANUT
An obscure one and a sentimental favourite. The sound is older than Inbal's and the interpretation isn't quite as deep, but the Llubjana orchestra are playing at their best, and it's a thoroughly satisfying performance.

WALTER 1 & 2
There's little difference between Walter's two recordings in the Sony set, except for stereo separation in the later one. Interestingly, he is swifter than most in all movements except the third, in which his timings are a minute longer than the norm. These are fine performances but I don't think Walter has anything special to say about this music. In modern sound he might be above Nanut, but this grey, ungratifying historical sound really can't compete for colour or detail.

BERNSTEIN
My chief reaction here was one of disappointment. Bernstein and the Concertgebouw produce a proficient recording of a top international standard, but I can't help feeling they think the music is second-rate. The playing doesn't have the commitment of the above recordings, and many of Bernstein's rubati and tempo changes seem pro forma, rather than part of an overall vision of the work. I expected him to wring some extra grotesquerie out of the third movement, but no.

TENNSTEDT
Another disappointment. First thing to mention is the terrible shrill sound. Lowering the treble response helps, but then you lose detail. The sound is also grey and fairly distant. And this is the remaster! Was the original actually worse? The performance itself is capable, but doesn't say anything special about the music.

RATTLE
Rattle has good sound, and at first his distinctive touches highlight unnoticed details and make the music sound fresh, although somewhat fragmented. But cumulatively the effect is artificial, especially with the last movement, which is just infuriating in its waywardness. It's a very interesting recording as far as interpretation goes, but ultimately not pleasurable.


So there you have it! I look forward to seeing how my own assessment compares with the result of the poll.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on September 17, 2012, 01:42:15 PM
Cross-post

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/OC648.jpg)

First movement is a touch too fast for me (33:25), which makes it frustrating rather than satisfying that Stenz does such a good job maintaining his tempo. The minuet is speedy and outbursty too, but the posthorn solos are utterly wonderful, 'O Mensch' very atmospheric, and the final movement well put-together - until the last chord, the energy and power of which decrease rather than increase as it is sustained. So close! But the search for a great Mahler 3 in great sound on Naxos Music Library continues.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 17, 2012, 01:43:51 PM
Thanks for posting your thoughts on that one, Brian. I'm very interested in Stenz's Mahler! :)

And thanks, Eye, for posting those thoughts, very interesting! We'll see! :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sammy on September 17, 2012, 01:50:31 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 17, 2012, 01:42:15 PM
Cross-post

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/OC648.jpg)

First movement is a touch too fast for me (33:25), which makes it frustrating rather than satisfying that Stenz does such a good job maintaining his tempo. The minuet is speedy and outbursty too, but the posthorn solos are utterly wonderful, 'O Mensch' very atmospheric, and the final movement well put-together - until the last chord, the energy and power of which decrease rather than increase as it is sustained. So close! But the search for a great Mahler 3 in great sound on Naxos Music Library continues.

Interesting.  One of our MusicWeb comrades, John Quinn, reviewed the recording and considered it a "tremendous performance".  I'll give it a spin on NML.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 17, 2012, 02:23:55 PM
I've heard Stenz's 1st, 3rd, 4th, & 5th. Jens ranks the 5th among his top choices. I thought it was good, but not extraordinary. (I'm not sure there is an extraordinary 5th, excepting Lenny's DGG disc with the WP ... and maybe Barshai.)  All of Stenz's Mahler symphony recordings have been good, especially the 4th, with Christiane Oelze doing a fine job (even if a bit loud at times), and IIRC the 1st.  It seems that everyone is turning out a good Mahler cycle these days. Recordings that would have been top choices a decade or two ago now get released faster than we can keep up with them!

I've flagged the cycle as one I'm likely to buy once it's complete and boxed, as long as the quality remains consistently high, but so far none of the individual issues have seemed singular enough to compel purchase. Taken as a set, however, Stenz is on track to produce a great one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on September 17, 2012, 03:34:25 PM
Quote from: Sammy on September 17, 2012, 01:50:31 PM
Interesting.  One of our MusicWeb comrades, John Quinn, reviewed the recording and considered it a "tremendous performance".  I'll give it a spin on NML.
That's exactly why I looked it up on NML for a listen, actually. I was all prepared to stand down from my mixed feelings about the first movement and join the cheering, but as the final chord grew more and more static I figured he was going to end it with one final crescendo. Nope.

By the way, I agree with JQ's praise of Michaela Schuster.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 17, 2012, 05:52:18 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 17, 2012, 01:42:15 PM(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/OC648.jpg)

First movement is a touch too fast for me (33:25)

Looking at the three versions I have to hand, timings are:

Bertini       34:03
Rattle        33:36
Tennstedt 33:16

- so Stenz seems to be in the average range. I must say, my impression of Bertini is that he was generally too slow in this symphony, but I haven't listened to that performance for a while (perhaps today's the day?).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2012, 03:39:51 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 17, 2012, 02:23:55 PMI'm not sure there is an extraordinary 5th, excepting Lenny's DGG disc with the WP ... and maybe Barshai. 

I agree it is not easy to find a great Fifth...or at least a Fifth that satisfies one personally, and completely. It took me 18 attempts (including Lenny and Barshai) before I found one a few years ago I really liked (Neumann). But since then I've discovered a string of winners; a veritable flood:

Neumann/Leipzig

Boulez/Vienna

Chailly/Concertgebouw

Stenz/Gürzenich

Dohnányi/Cleveland

Kubelik/SOBR (DG...a case where the studio version is superior to the live Audite)

Inbal/Frankfurt

Solti/Chicago

Haitink/Berlin (Not a general recommendation; it's too slow, too ponderous; an interpretation almost completely devoid of charm, lightness and light. It's like the music has been swallowed by the dark side. Even the Rondo-Finale brings no relief.)

But I know from the blind comparisons, most of you will not agree with my list--at least not wholly agree. But I'm finally satisfied with a surfeit of great Fifths  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 18, 2012, 04:59:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2012, 03:39:51 AM
I agree it is not easy to find a great Fifth...or at least a Fifth that satisfies one personally, and completely. It took me 18 attempts (including Lenny and Barshai) before I found one a few years ago I really liked (Neumann). But since then I've discovered a string of winners; a veritable flood:

Neumann/Leipzig

Boulez/Vienna

Chailly/Concertgebouw

Stenz/Gürzenich

Dohnányi/Cleveland

Kubelik/SOBR (DG...a case where the studio version is superior to the live Audite)

Inbal/Frankfurt

Solti/Chicago

Haitink/Berlin (Not a general recommendation; it's too slow, too ponderous; an interpretation almost completely devoid of charm, lightness and light. It's like the music has been swallowed by the dark side. Even the Rondo-Finale brings no relief.)

But I know from the blind comparisons, most of you will not agree with my list--at least not wholly agree. But I'm finally satisfied with a surfeit of great Fifths  8)

Sarge

Seconded in everything, except for  And Dohnányi and Solti, which I can't second due to ignorance.

Alongside Inbal and Stenz, I see a few others that are very fine, if slightly on the 'inoffensive' side... van Zweden/LPO, Gergiev/LSO (against all odds), Darlington/Duisburg. None of them must-haves like Neumann, Boulez, Chailly (if only for the sound), and Kubelik, though.

Oh, and Honeck. I think Honeck's First is very good... more distinct than the just above named.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 18, 2012, 05:07:48 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 05:57:05 PM
I'm not taking part in the Mahler 1 thread, but over the weekend I conducted my own little survey of all the recordings in my collection (excepting Bernstein's NY, and Simonov from that old Brilliant box). I listened to some of the recordings twice for comparison purposes, but I confess I didn't always listen to all of the finale - it is IMO the least interesting of the four movements. Anyway, the results quite surprised me!

The top two were quite clear:

BERTINI
I'd previously not much bothered with this, but paying full attention I realised what I'd missed. This is the most "characteristic" of all the performances. The instruments sound fruitcake-rich and really invested in the piece, and Bertini's rubato and tempo changes show he's really thought about the structure of the piece as a whole. The ambience of the sound is also terrific.

INBAL
I've previously been unkind to Inbal's Mahler in this thread, but at least in this case I was in error. The sound isn't quite as miraculous as Bertini's, and the playing doesn't have the folksy-ness of the Koln orchestra, but otherwise this is top notch, a well played and really committed interpretation.

And the rest:

NANUT
An obscure one and a sentimental favourite. The sound is older than Inbal's and the interpretation isn't quite as deep, but the Llubjana orchestra are playing at their best, and it's a thoroughly satisfying performance.

WALTER 1 & 2
There's little difference between Walter's two recordings in the Sony set, except for stereo separation in the later one. Interestingly, he is swifter than most in all movements except the third, in which his timings are a minute longer than the norm. These are fine performances but I don't think Walter has anything special to say about this music. In modern sound he might be above Nanut, but this grey, ungratifying historical sound really can't compete for colour or detail.

BERNSTEIN
My chief reaction here was one of disappointment. Bernstein and the Concertgebouw produce a proficient recording of a top international standard, but I can't help feeling they think the music is second-rate. The playing doesn't have the commitment of the above recordings, and many of Bernstein's rubati and tempo changes seem pro forma, rather than part of an overall vision of the work. I expected him to wring some extra grotesquerie out of the third movement, but no.

TENNSTEDT
Another disappointment. First thing to mention is the terrible shrill sound. Lowering the treble response helps, but then you lose detail. The sound is also grey and fairly distant. And this is the remaster! Was the original actually worse? The performance itself is capable, but doesn't say anything special about the music.

RATTLE
Rattle has good sound, and at first his distinctive touches highlight unnoticed details and make the music sound fresh, although somewhat fragmented. But cumulatively the effect is artificial, especially with the last movement, which is just infuriating in its waywardness. It's a very interesting recording as far as interpretation goes, but ultimately not pleasurable.


So there you have it! I look forward to seeing how my own assessment compares with the result of the poll.

Bertini has always been one of my favourites. He's in the bunch with Gielen, Chailly, Bernstein and, occasionally, Honeck, Gilbert and Haitink. Fischer starts to grab my attention too. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2012, 05:45:37 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 18, 2012, 04:59:48 AMNone of them must-haves like Neumann, Boulez, Chailly (if only for the sound), and Kubelik, though.

Those are my favorite M5s too, with the cool and razor-sharp Dohnányi rounding out a Top 5.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 18, 2012, 06:22:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2012, 03:39:51 AM
I agree it is not easy to find a great Fifth...or at least a Fifth that satisfies one personally, and completely. It took me 18 attempts (including Lenny and Barshai) before I found one a few years ago I really liked (Neumann). But since then I've discovered a string of winners; a veritable flood:
I really like the Neumann 5th, too. Jens pointed me that way, and to Stenz, too, which also is quite good. Boulez's is good. Chailly's is good. And so are Schwarz, Shipway, an Gatti. I like MTT & Sinopoli as well. And that's the "problem" with the 5th: There are so many good ones--well-played, well-recorded, and more than satisfying! Among such a fine lot, which, if any, stands out as extraordinary, when the ordinary is so very good?

My favorite "Golden Age" 5th, as usual, is Barbirolli's, this time with the Philharmonia. Perhaps I'm overdue to hear that one again, for if any of the many very good 5ths I know have the unique and compelling character necessary to distinguish itself as "extraordinary" along with Lenny & Rudy's, it's probably Sir John's. I don't know the Dohnanyi/CO disc, however, and since it seems so unlikely yet Sarge likes it so much it must be worth hearing, even discounting for his bias toward Cleveland (as others no doubt discount for my bias toward SF :D ).

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on September 18, 2012, 06:26:05 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 17, 2012, 05:52:18 PM
Looking at the three versions I have to hand, timings are:

Bertini       34:03
Rattle        33:36
Tennstedt 33:16

- so Stenz seems to be in the average range. I must say, my impression of Bertini is that he was generally too slow in this symphony, but I haven't listened to that performance for a while (perhaps today's the day?).
That was the odd thing. When I looked at my collection, Stenz was the slowest guy in it, for that movement. How I got the impression that it was a fast performance is a little odd - maybe it's the rigidity of tempo throughout, that he doesn't speed up for some things and then hit the brakes for other things.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 18, 2012, 07:24:51 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 18, 2012, 06:22:59 AM
I don't know the Dohnanyi/CO disc, however, and since it seems so unlikely yet Sarge likes it so much it must be worth hearing, even discounting for his bias toward Cleveland (as others no doubt discount for my bias toward SF :D ).

My thoughts exactly.
I know I'll be adding it to my collection.  :)


(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/015/MI0001015156.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
G.Mahler
Symphony No.5
Dohnányi
Cleveland Orchestra
Penguin Classics
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009275TI/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 18, 2012, 08:07:00 AM
Just finished Barbie's M5. Oh, yeah...go to the head of the class! (At least until the next time I hear another of my faves!)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HEXC5JH4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2012, 08:55:15 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 18, 2012, 07:24:51 AM

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/015/MI0001015156.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
G.Mahler
Symphony No.5
Dohnányi
Cleveland Orchestra
Penguin Classics
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0009275TI/goodmusicguide-20)

Hm, that link takes me to Beethoven played by the Quatuor Mosaïques
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2012, 08:58:21 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 18, 2012, 07:24:51 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 18, 2012, 06:22:59 AM
. . . I don't know the Dohnanyi/CO disc, however, and since it seems so unlikely yet Sarge likes it so much it must be worth hearing, even discounting for his bias toward Cleveland (as others no doubt discount for my bias toward SF :D ).

My thoughts exactly.
I know I'll be adding it to my collection.  :)

This is a party I am chronically late to. I have only recently loaded up the [rest of] symphonies from the DG box.

Sarge's post here has driven me, too, the the Marketplace
; )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 18, 2012, 09:35:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 18, 2012, 08:58:21 AM
My thoughts exactly.
I know I'll be adding it to my collection.  :)

This is a party I am chronically late to. I have only recently loaded up the [rest of] symphonies from the DG box.

Sarge's post here has driven me, too, the the Marketplace
; )
Sarge's description of Dohnányi as "cool and razor-sharp" sounds probable and in high-relief contrast to the 3 Bs--Barbirolli, Barshai, & Bernstein, none of whom are remotely cool. If you ever refer to Tony Duggan as a guide to Mahler recordings, it helps to note that he doesn't much like "cool" and much prefers his Mahler "hot" (but not overcooked), thus his dismissal of Dohnányi's Mahler as "an empty vessel" might be taken with several grains of salt.

Glad you're giving old Gus more of a try, Karl. Even though he's a bit longwinded, he's still one of the best, head and shoulders above his romantic predecessors. Just steep yourself in turn-of-the-century Viennese Weltschmaltz and settle in for the ride.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2012, 10:12:46 AM
I like that conflation of Schmaltz and Weltschmertz, Dave!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on September 18, 2012, 10:33:27 AM
 >:(
Oh God, no!  No, no, nay I say unto thee!
It has been mentioned above.
The return of Bertini...   :-\     :-[     :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: trung224 on September 18, 2012, 11:22:04 AM
  I think in all Mahler's symphonies, the fifth is the easiest symphony to appreciate and therefore has so many good-to-great performance. Alongside with the first, the fifth is only Mahler's symphony I can hear and enjoy all the time (some symphonies like the Second, Sixth and Ninth is too much emotional, turbulent, and dark)
   My favorites are
1. Barshai (contrapunctual, clarity texture with the best finale, full of joy)
2. Barbirolli (gentle but heart-feel)
3. Tennstedt (the live one on EMI Mahler's box or DVD, which has extreme tempo and emotion, turbulent and hysterical quality, but feel more natural than Bernstein with VPO)
4. Shipway (overall conception is similar with Karajan's performance, but much more involved and expressive, less homogenial)

the best recent Mahler 5 IMHO are from Stenz and Gergiev, but none of them can compete with the best in the past. Stenz is too straightformard though still imaginative, Gergiev is too wayward
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 18, 2012, 11:59:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 18, 2012, 10:12:46 AM
I like that conflation of Schmaltz and Weltschmertz, Dave!
I didn't want to insult anyone's intelligence by pointing out that it wasn't a typo, Karl!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 18, 2012, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: trung224 on September 18, 2012, 11:22:04 AM
1. Barshai (contrapunctual, clarity texture with the best finale, full of joy)
2. Barbirolli (gentle but heart-feel)
3. Tennstedt (the live one on EMI Mahler's box or DVD, which has extreme tempo and emotion, turbulent and hysterical quality, but feel more natural than Bernstein with VPO)
4. Shipway (overall conception is similar with Karajan's performance, but much more involved and expressive, less homogenial)
1) One that is often recommended to me, so I am very keen to hear it.
2) Due a listen soon!
3) Considering Tennstedt's 5th is the closest to being slightly disappointing in his box set I am currently exploring (concerning that set, I'm up to no.7 on the studio cycle), I shall be interested to see how his live performance compares. :)
4) Must admit that I have never heard of that conductor before.... maybe one I'll explore at some point! :)

As I normally mention, my absolute favourite in the 5th so far is Chailly and the Concertgebouw, this one is perfect for me. Out of all the other 5ths I have heard, no-one comes close! (IMHO) :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: trung224 on September 18, 2012, 01:57:29 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 18, 2012, 12:34:02 PM
1) One that is often recommended to me, so I am very keen to hear it.
2) Due a listen soon!
3) Considering Tennstedt's 5th is the closest to being slightly disappointing in his box set I am currently exploring (concerning that set, I'm up to no.7 on the studio cycle), I shall be interested to see how his live performance compares. :)
4) Must admit that I have never heard of that conductor before.... maybe one I'll explore at some point! :)

As I normally mention, my absolute favourite in the 5th so far is Chailly and the Concertgebouw, this one is perfect for me. Out of all the other 5ths I have heard, no-one comes close! (IMHO) :)
Shipway is an British and the music director of Sao Paolo Orchestra in Brazil, but he studied with Barbirolli and Karajan. He recorded only Mahler 5, Shostakovich 10 and Tchaikovsky 5, but everything he did is great.  His CDs are on budget price and you can buy easily on amazon. Surprisingly all my favorite Mahler 5 are very cheap (I bought the Barshai with only 5 Euro, Shipway 4 Euro, Tennstedt on EMI's Mahler box is only 22 Euro for 16 disc  ;D)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 18, 2012, 02:17:43 PM
Quote from: trung224 on September 18, 2012, 01:57:29 PM
   Shipway is an British and the music director of Sao Paolo Orchestra in Brazil, but he studied with Barbirolli and Karajan. He recorded only Mahler 5, Shostakovich 10 and Tchaikovsky 5, but everything he did is great.  His CDs are on budget price and you can buy easily on amazon. Surprisingly all my favorite Mahler 5 are very cheap (I bought the Barshai with only 5 Euro, Shipway 4 Euro, Tennstedt on EMI's Mahler box is only 22 Euro for 16 disc  ;D)

Thank you for the feedback! I shall try and get hold of Shipway's M5 at some point. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 18, 2012, 05:36:15 PM
Quote from: trung224 on September 18, 2012, 01:57:29 PM
   Shipway is an British and the music director of Sao Paolo Orchestra in Brazil, but he studied with Barbirolli and Karajan. He recorded only Mahler 5, Shostakovich 10 and Tchaikovsky 5, but everything he did is great.  His CDs are on budget price and you can buy easily on amazon. Surprisingly all my favorite Mahler 5 are very cheap (I bought the Barshai with only 5 Euro, Shipway 4 Euro, Tennstedt on EMI's Mahler box is only 22 Euro for 16 disc  ;D)

Shipway was, to my knowledge, never MD of the OSESP -- but a regular guest conductor and much, much liked by the orchestra. (Current MD is Marin Alsop, before that Tortellier as care-taker and before that the infamous John Neschling.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 18, 2012, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 18, 2012, 07:24:51 AM
My thoughts exactly.
I know I'll be adding it to my collection.  :)


(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/015/MI0001015156.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
G.Mahler
Symphony No.5
Dohnányi
Cleveland Orchestra
Penguin Classics
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000I936/goodmusicguide-20)

Quote from: karlhenning on September 18, 2012, 08:55:15 AM
Hm, that link takes me to Beethoven played by the Quatuor Mosaïques
Oooops. Fixed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 18, 2012, 05:49:21 PM
Marketing seems to have creeped in the Shipway reviews. Let me mention right from the start that I have not listened to it. But I'm quite suspicious of the mention that he studied with Barbiroli, let alone Karakan. AFAIK Karajan had hundreds of eager budding conductors attend his master classes, but never had any student. As for Barbrolli, I don't think he had students either. First of all, he was not the product of any school of conducting and had nothing but his extraordinary individuality and sensibility to bring to the world of music. Tony Duggan in his review of the Shipway 5th points out how different the younger conductor is from Barbie's own interpretation of the work.

Let Shipway stand or fall on his own merits.

Sarge, don't judge Haitink from his Berlin recordings. His COA 1970 version is better conceived, better played and better recorded. One of the very best IMHO. I actually hold it as ideal in movements 1-3. For the whole package, Neumann has it all. Probably stands at the top of the heap, actually. But Haitink has even better playing and sound, if less excitement in the last movement. Barshai, Farberman, Barbirolli and Kubelik all bring a great deal of personality and commitment.

Next in the queue is a live 1970 Carnegie Hall Steinberg Pittsburgh concert that clocks in at a zippy 64 minutes. I shall report.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: trung224 on September 19, 2012, 01:31:26 AM
Quote from: André on September 18, 2012, 05:49:21 PM
Marketing seems to have creeped in the Shipway reviews. Let me mention right from the start that I have not listened to it. But I'm quite suspicious of the mention that he studied with Barbiroli, let alone Karakan. AFAIK Karajan had hundreds of eager budding conductors attend his master classes, but never had any student. As for Barbrolli, I don't think he had students either. First of all, he was not the product of any school of conducting and had nothing but his extraordinary individuality and sensibility to bring to the world of music. Tony Duggan in his review of the Shipway 5th points out how different the younger conductor is from Barbie's own interpretation of the work.

Let Shipway stand or fall on his own merits.

Sarge, don't judge Haitink from his Berlin recordings. His COA 1970 version is better conceived, better played and better recorded. One of the very best IMHO. I actually hold it as ideal in movements 1-3. For the whole package, Neumann has it all. Probably stands at the top of the heap, actually. But Haitink has even better playing and sound, if less excitement in the last movement. Barshai, Farberman, Barbirolli and Kubelik all bring a great deal of personality and commitment.

Next in the queue is a live 1970 Carnegie Hall Steinberg Pittsburgh concert that clocks in at a zippy 64 minutes. I shall report.
I always feel Shipway is the same categories kind of conductors like Carlos Kleiber , who does not create individual or personal interpretation, but carry the  conventional approach to perfection.
     As much I admire Haitink in Debussy, Richard Strauss, Shostakovich and Bruckner 6, almost none of Haitink's Mahler performance impresses me, possibly except his first Mahler 3. His Mahler is always cool, musical but low-key, too much neutral, big and strong but not turbulent, lyrical but not sentimental, not Romantics but not modern, to sum up, good-medium but hardly memorable. I think the same character will apply to most of Mahler's performance in RCOA, from Haitink, Chailly and Jansons, except Mengelberg.
   Mahler 3, the most natural and least forceful Mahler's symphony, is much suites with Haitink (or RCOA in general from Haitink, Chailly and Jansons)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 19, 2012, 02:15:27 AM
Quote from: André on September 18, 2012, 05:49:21 PM
Sarge, don't judge Haitink from his Berlin recordings. His COA 1970 version is better conceived, better played and better recorded. One of the very best IMHO. I actually hold it as ideal in movements 1-3.

I know Haitink's Concertgebouw recording. It was my first M5 actually; a two LP box bought in 1972 along with his 2, 7 and 9. Still in my collection:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/P9190339_crop.jpg)

I prefer the Berlin performance for exactly the "negative" reasons I listed  ;D  I wanted to warn off any potential buyers by explaining that they would be getting a highly unusual Fifth, one I appreciate but others may not.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 19, 2012, 05:00:37 AM
Quote from: trung224 on September 19, 2012, 01:31:26 AM
     As much I admire Haitink [...] His Mahler is always cool, musical but low-key, too much neutral, big and strong but not turbulent, lyrical but not sentimental, not Romantics but not modern, to sum up, good-medium but hardly memorable.
Sounds like a list of virtues to me, not faults! I suppose that's why Haitink seldom attracts fanatical admirers, unlike some other conductors whose egoism exceeds their professionalism. And why, as you note, nothing particularly distinctive sticks in the memory about his performances ... except, that is, for his impeccable competence and service to the music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 19, 2012, 09:13:27 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 18, 2012, 12:34:02 PM
1) One that is often recommended to me, so I am very keen to hear it.
2) Due a listen soon!
3) Considering Tennstedt's 5th is the closest to being slightly disappointing in his box set I am currently exploring (concerning that set, I'm up to no.7 on the studio cycle), I shall be interested to see how his live performance compares. :)
4) Must admit that I have never heard of that conductor before.... maybe one I'll explore at some point! :)

As I normally mention, my absolute favourite in the 5th so far is Chailly and the Concertgebouw, this one is perfect for me. Out of all the other 5ths I have heard, no-one comes close! (IMHO) :)

You can say that again. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: eyeresist on September 19, 2012, 05:37:37 PM
Quote from: Scots John on September 18, 2012, 10:33:27 AM>:(
Oh God, no!  No, no, nay I say unto thee!
It has been mentioned above.
The return of Bertini...   :-\     :-[     :'(

Just for this, I am taking back the nice things I said about Inbal.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on September 24, 2012, 08:02:24 AM
Exton is on Naxos Music Library!! But Honeck's Mahler isn't uploaded yet. :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 08:09:23 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 24, 2012, 08:02:24 AM
Exton is on Naxos Music Library!! But Honeck's Mahler isn't uploaded yet. :(
His splendid M1's on Spotify, Brian, and there's an M5 on youtube.
Title: Re: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on September 24, 2012, 08:33:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2012, 05:45:37 AM
Those are my favorite M5s too, with the cool and razor-sharp Dohnányi rounding out a Top 5.

Sarge

BTW, this baby has landed ... will give 'er a spin to-night or to-morrow.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 09:29:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2012, 08:33:45 AM
BTW, this baby has landed ... will give 'er a spin to-night or to-morrow.
Mine showed up, too. I'll wait 'til you've heard it before sharing my impressions, pro or con. Not that you're likely to be influenced, anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on September 24, 2012, 09:35:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2012, 08:33:45 AM
BTW, this baby has landed ... will give 'er a spin to-night or to-morrow.

Which one?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 24, 2012, 09:37:43 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 24, 2012, 09:35:22 AM
Which one?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61bJMuMWBrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on September 25, 2012, 12:03:35 PM
Collated Gergiev Cycle out late October :

[asin]B0096SLCN6[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on September 25, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
And some may have forgotten about this one:
This title will be released on March 4, 2013.
[asin]B004NO5HLG[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 01:11:23 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 25, 2012, 12:03:35 PM
Collated Gergiev Cycle out late October :
(http://th399.photobucket.com/albums/pp73/ezgoin_photos/th_yawn.gif)
Quote from: North Star on September 25, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
And some may have forgotten about this one:
Already have 'em. (Would buy if I didn't, however. :) )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 01:11:23 PM
(http://th399.photobucket.com/albums/pp73/ezgoin_photos/th_yawn.gif)

Already have 'em. (Would buy if I didn't, however. :) )

;D
So, is anyone going to get the Gergiev cycle?

Owning the complete Boulez cycle will be of interest to me at some point.... as soon as I have had the money to get MTT! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on September 25, 2012, 01:19:43 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 01:15:08 PM
;D
So, is anyone going to get the Gergiev cycle?

Owning the complete Boulez cycle will be of interest to me at some point.... as soon as I have had the money to get MTT! :)
But.... the Boulez is a lot less expensive!
In any case, Amazon Spain has the MTT complete box for 135 € plus delivery:
http://www.amazon.es/Gustav-Mahler-Michael-Tilson-Thomas/dp/B004WSX6DO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1348607907&sr=1-1

Gergiev has some fans.
(http://www.char4u.com/images/char4u/calligraphy/z_fan_lovebound.jpg)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on September 25, 2012, 01:21:33 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 25, 2012, 01:11:23 PM
(http://th399.photobucket.com/albums/pp73/ezgoin_photos/th_yawn.gif)

I have his M2 and M6; I don't intend to investigate any further either... :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 01:25:17 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 25, 2012, 01:19:43 PM
But.... the Boulez is a lot less expensive!
In any case, Amazon Spain has the MTT complete box for 135 € plus delivery:
http://www.amazon.es/Gustav-Mahler-Michael-Tilson-Thomas/dp/B004WSX6DO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1348607907&sr=1-1

Gergiev has some fans.
(http://www.char4u.com/images/char4u/calligraphy/z_fan_lovebound.jpg)

Do you know how much the Boulez is yet? It doesn't say on the amazon website....
I have wanted the MTT box for absolutely ages, it just sounds so great! Thanks for letting me know of that, I think that would be the cheapest I've seen it.... :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on September 25, 2012, 02:04:08 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 01:25:17 PM
Do you know how much the Boulez is yet? It doesn't say on the amazon website....
I have wanted the MTT box for absolutely ages, it just sounds so great! Thanks for letting me know of that, I think that would be the cheapest I've seen it.... :)
Amazon UK: £27.60
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Boulez-Conducts-Mahler-Gustav/dp/B004NO5HLG/ref=pd_sim_m_h__1

The Spanish Amazon has very good prices on much of the stuff I've looked for - even some Hyperion offerings (Hamelin DSCH), I've purchased mostly from there since discovering this in May.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 02:09:55 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 25, 2012, 02:04:08 PM
Amazon UK: £27.60
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Boulez-Conducts-Mahler-Gustav/dp/B004NO5HLG/ref=pd_sim_m_h__1

The Spanish Amazon has very good prices on much of the stuff I've looked for - even some Hyperion offerings (Hamelin DSCH), I've purchased mostly from there since discovering this in May.

Thanks for the feedback, Karlo. :) It's confusing how Amazon lists it as only 1 cd.... it is the whole cycle for that price isn't it?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on September 25, 2012, 02:21:26 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 02:09:55 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Karlo. :) It's confusing how Amazon lists it as only 1 cd.... it is the whole cycle for that price isn't it?

Well, it's hard to say as it's not released yet, but I can't think what it could be if it isn't, and why it was posted over a year before the release date.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 25, 2012, 02:28:24 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 25, 2012, 02:21:26 PM
Well, it's hard to say as it's not released yet, but I can't think what it could be if it isn't, and why it was posted over a year before the release date.

Good point, Karlo. So, let's hope it is a full cycle for that price!! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: trung224 on September 25, 2012, 02:35:08 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 25, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
And some may have forgotten about this one:
This title will be released on March 4, 2013.
[asin]B004NO5HLG[/asin]
Though I'm not Boulez's fan, I'm not hesitate to buy this collections. Boulez always has something special to say about music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 25, 2012, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 25, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
And some may have forgotten about this one:
This title will be released on March 4, 2013.
[asin]B004NO5HLG[/asin]

Boulez's interpretation of Mahler's music is quite fine, I think this set could be very interesting! But before the Boulez, I would get the Tennstedt, the MTT or the Bertini.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on September 25, 2012, 03:23:17 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 25, 2012, 03:15:22 PM
Boulez's interpretation of Mahler's music is quite fine, I think this set could be very interesting! But before the Boulez, I would get the Tennstedt, the MTT or the Bertini.
Hmm. I probably will get a set at some point (2013 or later). The EMI 150th ann. box has Tennstedt's live 5th, very nice indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: CriticalI on September 26, 2012, 05:38:19 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on September 25, 2012, 12:03:35 PMCollated Gergiev Cycle out late October :

[asin]B0096SLCN6[/asin]

Ignore now to avoid the rush! ;) Can't wait for Santa Fe Listener struggling to justify this effort from the "greatest living conductor".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 26, 2012, 06:59:35 PM
Quote from: CriticalI on September 26, 2012, 05:38:19 PM
Ignore now to avoid the rush! ;) Can't wait for Santa Fe Listener struggling to justify this effort from the "greatest living conductor".

I think Gergiev did a good job with 1, 3 and 7, and an absolutely horrible job with 4.  The rest for me are meh-meh, so I wouldn't suggest this set to anyone.  But Jens seems to have a moderate enthusiasm for his M5 and M8.  So perhaps there is more to him than meets the ear....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 27, 2012, 12:24:00 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 26, 2012, 06:59:35 PM
I think Gergiev did a good job with 1, 3 and 7, and an absolutely horrible job with 4.  The rest for me are meh-meh, so I wouldn't suggest this set to anyone.  But Jens seems to have a moderate enthusiasm for his M5 and M8.  So perhaps there is more to him than meets the ear....

His Mahler 3? I seem to remember his finale being incredibly rushed....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 27, 2012, 05:33:16 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 27, 2012, 12:24:00 PM
His Mahler 3? I seem to remember his finale being incredibly rushed....

It's been a while, I must admit--but in the Third, it's the first movement that sets the tone for me, literally and figuratively, and he did a good job with that,  and I think kept the other movements at a pace that co-ordinated well with the first.

Of course, this is Gergiev, and his "Walking pace" can sometimes be mistaken for a slow jog   ;D

And getting out my copy, I can see why you might think it rushed

I--32'22
II--9'41
III--17'20
IV--8'35
V--3'50
VI--20'22               
Total timing 92'10
Which is about 8 minutes faster overall than most of the others I have--most of them take the last movement in either 22 minutes and odd seconds, or 26 minutes and odd seconds, with one or two at 24 minutes.  But his final movement is about only 20 seconds faster than Tennstedt.  Does Klaus seem rushed to you (as a point of comparison)?

The key is not that a movement have some objectively ideal timing or tempo, but that the tempos within the movement and in relation to the other movements make a coherent structure, and I think Gergiev managed that with the Third (unlike a few others in the cycle).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 04:57:29 AM
Hmmm---

I just followed up the link to the Boulez Mahler set above. It's a poor joke.

Release date--Dec. 31, 2020
# of discs--1
Label--Roc-A-Fella
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Opus106 on September 28, 2012, 07:14:30 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 04:57:29 AM
Hmmm---

I just followed up the link to the Boulez Mahler set above. It's a poor joke.

Release date--Dec. 31, 2020
# of discs--1
Label--Roc-A-Fella

Try the UK store. It's even had a price on it for many months, now. Disc count is still one, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 28, 2012, 07:33:09 AM
Heard MTT/SFS perform Mahler's 5th last night at Mondavi. No longer a member and subscriber (too poor these days  :'( ), made do with front row balcony seats instead of center orchestra as we used to have. Took me awhile to figure out what why I was disappointed a little by the performance. I think hearing it as a distant single source of sound is quite a bit different from hearing it as a wall of sound washing over and around us. Like listening to mono instead or stereo--or, more accurately, like listening to a radio playing in another room when you're accustomed to hearing it in a prime seating position in front of a very good hi fi stereo system.

It was their first performance of the 5th this season and it seemed to start a little fast to me, but they had their groove on by halfway through the first movement, and maintained it throughout. The adagietto was heart-breakingly beautiful, the finale rousing and in the end, exhilarating. Yet I still felt a bit let down by it all and only later decided that the seat location probably had a lot to do with it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 28, 2012, 12:54:52 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 27, 2012, 05:33:16 PM
It's been a while, I must admit--but in the Third, it's the first movement that sets the tone for me, literally and figuratively, and he did a good job with that,  and I think kept the other movements at a pace that co-ordinated well with the first.

Of course, this is Gergiev, and his "Walking pace" can sometimes be mistaken for a slow jog   ;D

And getting out my copy, I can see why you might think it rushed

I--32'22
II--9'41
III--17'20
IV--8'35
V--3'50
VI--20'22               
Total timing 92'10
Which is about 8 minutes faster overall than most of the others I have--most of them take the last movement in either 22 minutes and odd seconds, or 26 minutes and odd seconds, with one or two at 24 minutes.  But his final movement is about only 20 seconds faster than Tennstedt.  Does Klaus seem rushed to you (as a point of comparison)?

The key is not that a movement have some objectively ideal timing or tempo, but that the tempos within the movement and in relation to the other movements make a coherent structure, and I think Gergiev managed that with the Third (unlike a few others in the cycle).

Thanks for the feedback, Jeffrey. Concerning the Tennstedt, I thought it was pretty much perfect. And no, certainly did not think he was rushing, so I am slightly surprised he is only 20 seconds faster than Gergiev. What I think Gergiev does, making the performance sound slightly more rushed, is to form a massive accel towards the very peak of a climax. Just how I remember it....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 29, 2012, 03:27:04 PM
I had high hopes for the Gergiev cycle. What with all these lightning bolts and dramatic skies on the art covers :D.

So far no cigar. I downloaded  5 of the symphonies and find most of them wanting, sometimes severely. Sound and execution are definitely below standard. No concert hall ambiance, no spatial imaging. Very much a caramel sundae with strawberry coulis type of thing. There's nothing actively wrong with them, but nothing I hear that has not been bettered a few times, sometimes decades ago.

I'll wait and see before downloading some more.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 29, 2012, 05:44:44 PM
Quote from: André on September 29, 2012, 03:27:04 PM
I had high hopes for the Gergiev cycle. What with all these lightning bolts and dramatic skies on the art covers :D.

So far no cigar. I downloaded  5 of the symphonies and find most of them wanting, sometimes severely. Sound and execution are definitely below standard. No concert hall ambiance, no spatial imaging. Very much a caramel sundae with strawberry coulis type of thing. There's nothing actively wrong with them, but nothing I hear that has not been bettered a few times, sometimes decades ago.

I'll wait and see before downloading some more.

I'm curious to know which five you've listened to.  If you read below you'll see which three I like and which one I loathe, which leaves five I find mediocre (but two of those five Jens seems to like).    Part of the problems you refer to may be in the venue--a lot of people seem to think the Barbican is not a good place to record in.  The Eighth was recorded in St. Paul's Cathedral, and the reverb is unmistakeable, especially in the concluding moments of each part
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 30, 2012, 03:39:04 AM
Quote from: André on September 29, 2012, 03:27:04 PM
I had high hopes for the Gergiev cycle. What with all these lightning bolts and dramatic skies on the art covers :D.

So far no cigar. I downloaded  5 of the symphonies and find most of them wanting, sometimes severely. Sound and execution are definitely below standard. No concert hall ambiance, no spatial imaging. Very much a caramel sundae with strawberry coulis type of thing. There's nothing actively wrong with them, but nothing I hear that has not been bettered a few times, sometimes decades ago.

I'll wait and see before downloading some more.


5 & 8 jazz my bell... otherwise i'm more or less with the above. 9 i haven't heard yet. or have i and forgotten?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on October 02, 2012, 08:03:21 AM
Two and a half years ago I saw Marin Alsop conduct Mahler 1 live and thought the first three movements very good and the finale spectacular. Now here comes Captain Hurwitz (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/alsops-mostly-very-good-mahler-first/) reviewing her CD, and he also thinks the finale is spectacular, but is more dismissive of the funeral march. Guess Alsop really does connect with the ending as I thought she did years ago... gotta ask yourself if one excellent movement is worth investing, though. I'll try it on NML, at least.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on October 02, 2012, 01:08:04 PM
Will be interested to hear what you think, Brian. I'm quite willing to give Alsop's Mahler a chance.... ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 02, 2012, 05:24:57 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 29, 2012, 05:44:44 PM
I'm curious to know which five you've listened to.  If you read below you'll see which three I like and which one I loathe, which leaves five I find mediocre (but two of those five Jens seems to like).    Part of the problems you refer to may be in the venue--a lot of people seem to think the Barbican is not a good place to record in.  The Eighth was recorded in St. Paul's Cathedral, and the reverb is unmistakeable, especially in the concluding moments of each part

I thought I had five of them, it's actually four (1, 3, 5 and 9). Unless I have another one I can't trace at the moment. I really should start a catalogue of my collection... :P

The latest I listened to was the 9th, sometime last spring. I see I have placed it toward the end among my M9s (21 out of 22 to be precise).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 02, 2012, 06:12:48 PM
Quote from: André on October 02, 2012, 05:24:57 PM
I thought I had five of them, it's actually four (1, 3, 5 and 9). Unless I have another one I can't trace at the moment. I really should start a catalogue of my collection... :P

The latest I listened to was the 9th, sometime last spring. I see I have placed it toward the end among my M9s (21 out of 22 to be precise).
Okay,  that's two of the three I like, so I won't  press the matter further.  But I have to ask you who number 1 and number 22 are on your list.  (And if you've heard Zinman's, I'm curious to know what you think of it.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on October 03, 2012, 06:31:56 AM
Bonjour.   :D
When I first joined GMG I had the moniker "mahler10th" instead of Scots John.  This was because Mahlers 10th (Adagio) was the only music that brought me to tears.  Here's a link to a discography of Mahler 10ths.  I only ever listen to the adagio, I am not interested in 'realizations'. 

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/symph10.html (http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/symph10.html)

It is in French, but there are links to discographies of all his symphonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 03, 2012, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 02, 2012, 06:12:48 PM
Okay,  that's two of the three I like, so I won't  press the matter further.  But I have to ask you who number 1 and number 22 are on your list.  (And if you've heard Zinman's, I'm curious to know what you think of it.)

Numbers are just that. I'll give you 1-5 and 18-22:

Walter, Columbia Symphony
Barbirolli, BPO
Maderna, BBC Symphony
Karajan I
Karajan II
(...)
Salonen, Philharmonia O.
Rosbaud, SWF O.
Svetlanov
Gergiev
Mitropoulos NYPO

Another 10 await my good will, but after having listened to 22 versions in about 8 months, I'll take my time to return to it.

Edit: I haven't heard Zinman, nor any of his Mahlers. Should I ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 04, 2012, 06:28:53 PM
Quote from: André on October 03, 2012, 08:14:58 PM
Numbers are just that. I'll give you 1-5 and 18-22:

Walter, Columbia Symphony
Barbirolli, BPO
Maderna, BBC Symphony
Karajan I
Karajan II
(...)
Salonen, Philharmonia O.
Rosbaud, SWF O.
Svetlanov
Gergiev
Mitropoulos NYPO

Another 10 await my good will, but after having listened to 22 versions in about 8 months, I'll take my time to return to it.

Edit: I haven't heard Zinman, nor any of his Mahlers. Should I ?

Last question first--Zinman's Ninth is my favorite recording of the symphony, mainly because the last movement is taken as a long serene ascent to Heaven.  No emotional angst for the boys from Zurich!

My second favorite is Levine/Munich Phil., who goes for the angst route.  So you see I like both approaches. 

Maderna comes close behind those two, and if you like Maderna, I think you'll like Zinman.  But the Bruno Walter recording--that one's pretty fresh in my memory, since I played it recently.  And it may interest you (or at least amuse you) to see why it's not my favorite.  Here's what I posted in the WAYLT thread.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 30, 2012, 07:24:40 PM
Mahler Symphony No. 9  Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony Orchestra 1961 
From the Sony "Bruno Walter conducts Mahler" budget box

First listen to this performance.  Sound is an obvious improvement for the famous 1938 recording;  outer movements are rich and burnished in tone;  inner movements are unfortunately too coherent (I like the second and third movements to sound as if the orchestra is teetering on the edge of falling apart,  the aural equivalent of a gyroscope losing its balance).  Last movement is decent, but too brisk for my taste;  the speed means all the tension is lost (timing is 21:04).   Certainly no emotional descent into the abyss that some conductors make of this movement, nor the gradual ascent to the celestial spheres that I hear in, for example, Zinman's recording--more the feeling of simply coming home from work, taking a nice cold drink and relaxing on the porch as you watch the sun set over the neighboring woods.

I'd also say Zinman's Third is worth hearing.  The rest of his cycle is rather variable, and you may or may not like any one of the others.  The only one from his set I don't like is the Tenth, which he recorded in Carpenter's version.  And not having any other recording of the Carpenter version to compare it to,  I can't say if it's Zinman's fault or Carpenter's.  (Is there another recording of Carpenter's version? I remember reading somewhere there is not.)

Another Ninth you might find of interest but which no one seems to ever mention here  is Gilbert/Stockholm.  It was his last recording with them before he took over the NYPO.  (The recording is on BIS.)  No trails blazed but very solid work all around.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 05, 2012, 06:12:51 AM

I previously had the Bernstein/NYPO/CBS set of Mahler symphonies.

[asin]B0000589BP[/asin]

which, when it was released, was claimed to be an improved remastering job.  I thought it was dreary.

But recently I've picked up this one:

[asin]B005SJIP1E[/asin]

This appears to be a bargain issue of the "Carnegie Hall Edition," where for the first time they went back to the original session tapes.   I've only listened to the 5th symphony, but Wow!  This is one of the rare instances where a remix changed my view of the recordings in a basic way.  On another note, astonishing that CBS/Sony managed to produce such poor sound for their previous issues when the source material sounded this good.  I wonder how much other horrid-sounding Columbia material could be improved.  Szell?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 05, 2012, 06:26:43 AM
That is just a reissue of the Carnegie Hall edition of 2009 right?  The only changes being a lower price point, and a disingenuous picture of Bernstein as an old man right?  That cover art is highly misleading, my initial impression was that this was the middle cycle, on dvd, finally released on cd.  But no it is only the overhyped cycle from the 60s when Bernstein was an impetuous youth. 

I prefer the DGG cycle with the thoughtful introspection of the older, sage Bernstein. And I want to hear those 70s recordings from the middle cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 05, 2012, 06:31:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 05, 2012, 06:26:43 AM
But no it is only the overhyped cycle from the 60s when Bernstein was an impetuous youth. 

I prefer the DGG cycle with the thoughtful introspection of the older, sage Bernstein. And I want to hear those 70s recordings from the middle cycle.

After hearing this edition, I no longer think Bernstein's 60's Maher is overhyped.  I have the DG cycle as well, but I'm afraid the older Bernstein was more self-indulgent than sage.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:55:28 AM
Welcome back, Scarps!

Guess now I'll have to look into a remastered remastered Lenny/NYPO cycle, even though I already have the older one, and even though--along with DaveW--I prefer his DGG cycle
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 05, 2012, 07:18:14 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 05, 2012, 06:26:43 AMBut no it is only the overhyped cycle from the 60s when Bernstein was an impetuous youth.

Yeah, he was barely out of knee pants, a mere stripling of 42 to 50 years old when he recorded this first cycle  ;D

Quote from: DavidW on October 05, 2012, 06:26:43 AM
I prefer the DGG cycle with the thoughtful introspection of the older, sage Bernstein. And I want to hear those 70s recordings from the middle cycle.

I like both but prefer the Sony 1, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 9.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 05, 2012, 08:03:55 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 06:55:28 AM
Welcome back, Scarps!

Guess now I'll have to look into a remastered remastered Lenny/NYPO cycle, even though I already have the older one, and even though--along with DaveW--I prefer his DGG cycle

Thanks.

I can't do an A/B comparison with the older one, which I've already sold off.  But I've uploaded a flac sample from the new one, which you can use to judge whether the improvement justifies the $20 that the set costs.  Anyone who wants to hear it can PM me and I will provide a link.


The new packaging is cute, with an album cover replica for each CD and a brief booklet.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 08:27:07 AM
Thanks, Scarps--for $20 I once would have just bought the thing, but I'm relatively poor these days and already burdened my groaning shelves with 2 Mahler cycle purchases in the past month, so hearing some of it first in good sound seems a good idea. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on October 05, 2012, 10:33:34 AM
I've heard both masterings back to back, me and Dark Angel thought that the sound quality is about the same.  Daverz and LeoK thought otherwise.  At the time MI had not heard the newer, but I think he now has and is on board with Daverz and LeoK?  We should totally do a poll! ;D

Sound quality wise I've heard better from that same decade too, but it's not bad by any means.  But if sound quality is what you want all of the modern cycles would run circles around that 60s era Columbia cycle for detail, transparency, acoustics and dynamics.

Where do you lean Sarge on the masterings?

I'm fine with the Mahler, but I wish that Lenny's Columbia Sibelius cycle was shown as much love in remasterings (if it is even in print anymore).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 10:48:04 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 05, 2012, 10:33:34 AM
I'm fine with the Mahler, but I wish that Lenny's Columbia Sibelius cycle was shown as much love in remasterings (if it is even in print anymore).
Yeah!
But Sibelius is still far out of the mainstream, whereas Mahler now owns it. (His time has come, indeed!)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 05, 2012, 11:28:37 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 05, 2012, 10:33:34 AM
Where do you lean Sarge on the masterings?

No opinion yet. I only own this one and haven't heard any other masterings:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/MahComBern.jpg)

After reading Scarpia's post, I ordered the new box (it's so cheap, I thought, what the hell, why not?). Should have it early next week.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 05, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 05, 2012, 11:28:37 AM
No opinion yet. I only own this one and haven't heard any other masterings:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/mahler/MahComBern.jpg)

After reading Scarpia's post, I ordered the new box (it's so cheap, I thought, what the hell, why not?). Should have it early next week.

Sarge

I hope it will turn out to be money well spent.  I don't think the fact that I am listening to the new set on my B&W Nautilus's instead of those Dell computer speakers had any influence on my judgement.  (Just kidding!)

In any case, I am going by memory, anyone who wants to compare can PM me and download the sample (M5, 1st movement).

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 05, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
I don't think the fact that I am listening to the new set on my B&W Nautilus's instead of those Dell computer speakers had any influence on my judgement.  (Just kidding!)
;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 01:45:10 PM
After listening  to my CD of the older set side by side with the clip from the newer set, I promptly visited Amazon and bought a copy of the newer edition. The clip was the first movement of the 5th. The difference between the muddy, recessed sound of the old one and the clear, full sound of the new one is like night and day.

Thanks for the heads up, Scarps, and the opportunity to hear the difference for myself first. I had heard that the sound was better on the newer set, but had also heard that it wasn't that significant, so I thought it was mostly a marketing tactic, so never really considered the newer one despite the bargain price.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 05, 2012, 02:39:58 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 05, 2012, 01:45:10 PM
After listening  to my CD of the older set side by side with the clip from the newer set, I promptly visited Amazon and bought a copy of the newer edition. The clip was the first movement of the 5th. The difference between the muddy, recessed sound of the old one and the clear, full sound of the new one is like night and day.

Thanks for the heads up, Scarps, and the opportunity to hear the difference for myself first. I had heard that the sound was better on the newer set, but had also heard that it wasn't that significant, so I thought it was mostly a marketing tactic, so never really considered the newer one despite the bargain price.

Glad you liked it, but sorry for the ding to your account balance. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 06, 2012, 08:01:18 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 04, 2012, 06:28:53 PM
Last question first--Zinman's Ninth is my favorite recording of the symphony, mainly because the last movement is taken as a long serene ascent to Heaven.  No emotional angst for the boys from Zurich!

My second favorite is Levine/Munich Phil., who goes for the angst route.  So you see I like both approaches. 

Maderna comes close behind those two, and if you like Maderna, I think you'll like Zinman.  But the Bruno Walter recording--that one's pretty fresh in my memory, since I played it recently.  And it may interest you (or at least amuse you) to see why it's not my favorite.  Here's what I posted in the WAYLT thread.

I'd also say Zinman's Third is worth hearing.  The rest of his cycle is rather variable, and you may or may not like any one of the others.  The only one from his set I don't like is the Tenth, which he recorded in Carpenter's version.  And not having any other recording of the Carpenter version to compare it to,  I can't say if it's Zinman's fault or Carpenter's.  (Is there another recording of Carpenter's version? I remember reading somewhere there is not.)

Another Ninth you might find of interest but which no one seems to ever mention here  is Gilbert/Stockholm.  It was his last recording with them before he took over the NYPO.  (The recording is on BIS.)  No trails blazed but very solid work all around.

Thanks, Jeffrey! I'll certainly look for the Zinman. I have the Levine MPO in the can (mp3 download), along with a few others I haven't listened to yet.

I understand you reaction to the Walter. It was exactly what I thought when a friend loaned it to me 35 years ago. I was used to the cooler, more objective yet big and lively Haitink COA version. I have left the 9th alone for many years before interest was rekindled. My view of it was so set that I didn't feel any urge for the occasional listen, let alone multiplying versions. During my run of listening sessions in the past couple of years I gave both Walters a few hearings. There is no doubt that the Vienna is a very special document (the finale is the swiftest I know). But the Columbia Symphony remake has 'fallen into place' for me as it had never done before. What I hear in Walter's finale is an ardent love song. Others make it sound like a valedictory farewell to life, complete with abandon, rebellion, blood, sweat and tears (check the El Greco painting Laocoon for a visual equivalent).

It's fascinating to hear that kind of approach be taken boldly and turbulently, or with slow motion, bigger-than-life gestures. Timings for that same approach are all over the place. Walter is one of the very few to emphasize the lyrical, effusive strain in the music. In the scherzo he emphasizes the otherworldly, moonscape passages instead of the savagery of the opening music.

Other versions I like very much are Giulini CSO, Leopold Ludwig LSO, Ancerl, the two Sinopolis, Berstein Berlin, Chailly, and of course Haitink. My first choices are pretty much set for the time being, but it's a very strong field. Any of the first 12-15 will come down the shelf and be listened to with great pleasure.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to like Maderna. I picked it out of curiosity after reading a few Amazon reviews. It bowled me over by its originality and the boldness of conception. I haven't heard the Soltis and the other Bernsteins. MTT SFSO is also waiting in the wings, plus a few more that don't come to mind right now.

And, following Scarpia's comment, I too have ordered the remastered Lennys :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 06, 2012, 09:50:08 AM
Quote from: André on October 06, 2012, 08:01:18 AM

Other versions I like very much are Giulini CSO, Leopold Ludwig LSO, Ancerl, the two Sinopolis, Berstein Berlin, Chailly, and of course Haitink. My first choices are pretty much set for the time being, but it's a very strong field. Any of the first 12-15 will come down the shelf and be listened to with great pleasure.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to like Maderna. I picked it out of curiosity after reading a few Amazon reviews. It bowled me over by its originality and the boldness of conception. I haven't heard the Soltis and the other Bernsteins. MTT SFSO is also waiting in the wings, plus a few more that don't come to mind right now.

And, following Scarpia's comment, I too have ordered the remastered Lennys :D

I didn't need to order the remastered Lenny, since I jumped for the Carnegie Hall box when it first came out*.

Actually, for me, the Lennies are down in the middle of the pack.   My problem with the Berlin Lenny is the audience noise, especially one person who seemed to cough through half of the performance, and someone else who kept allowing the exit doors to bang shut when someone came in or out.  Normally I'm okay with audience noise,  but this time it was not only excessive but ruinous to the music.  Supposedly the brass in that performance had intonation problems, but I was so busy swearing at the cougher and the door banger I didn't notice them.

I agree that the Chailly is a fine recording, and I've got the Sinopoli set waiting in the listening pile.  MTT SFSO is good, but I'm not sure I would call it great.   The others you mention, including the other Sinopoli,  I don't have.  (And I used to think that with about 30 different recordings, I had sort of covered the field!)

Another one I like, btw, is Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle.


*From which comes the memory of a woman in Borders who was looking at the set on the day it came out, and after finding out it was music Mahler, turned away in disgust because she had seen Bernstein's name on the box and was hoping the set contained Gerswhin or West Side Story.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 16, 2012, 05:28:25 AM
My remastered Lenny/NYPO Mahler set arrived yesterday. Hope to hear it soon--think I'll start with #3 when I get a chance.

Mahler maniacs might be interested in the interviews with notable Mahler conductors published by Gramophone, here:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/gustav-mahler-1860-1911 (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/gustav-mahler-1860-1911)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: johndoe21ro on October 16, 2012, 10:25:29 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 16, 2012, 05:28:25 AM
My remastered Lenny/NYPO Mahler set arrived yesterday. Hope to hear it soon--think I'll start with #3 when I get a chance.

Mahler maniacs might be interested in the interviews with notable Mahler conductors published by Gramophone, here:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/gustav-mahler-1860-1911 (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/gustav-mahler-1860-1911)

Oh my God. There's something wrong with Gramophone or I am seriously malfunctioning. I don't see too much (if any) Bernstein, Haitink, Chailly, Bertini, Gielen, MTT, Klemperer... and this if I forget to mention the new good stuff like Fischer, Honeck, Gilbert.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on October 16, 2012, 02:03:19 PM
Quote from: johndoe21ro on October 16, 2012, 10:25:29 AM
Oh my God. There's something wrong with Gramophone or I am seriously malfunctioning. I don't see too much (if any) Bernstein, Haitink, Chailly, Bertini, Gielen, MTT, Klemperer... and this if I forget to mention the new good stuff like Fischer, Honeck, Gilbert.
;)

Oh, yeah -- their recommended recordings list is pretty funny. But it does include Klemp's DLVDE, Sir John's song cycles with Janet Baker, Abbado's CSO 7th, and Kubelik's 1st. Many of the backup choices listed below it are better.

However, the conductor interviews are interesting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scarpia on October 17, 2012, 06:27:26 AM
I've been listening to Bernstein's first cycle, and he is ascending in my estimation.  Symphonies 5 and 9 so far.  Probably 6 next.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Bogey on October 28, 2012, 10:23:04 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lEoTSU6cL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

No. 8 just finished.  Some compare it to Mahler's 4th.  Agree?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on November 30, 2012, 10:46:17 AM
(http://www.tonedeafcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/13191749722011-11-16-What-Mahler-Symphony-Did-You-Hear-.gif)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on December 04, 2012, 03:06:36 AM
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on December 04, 2012, 03:16:08 AM
That's such rattlin' good fun, I posted it onto my Facebook wall.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on December 04, 2012, 03:29:19 AM
Now I'd like to see a similar chart for Haydn.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on December 04, 2012, 04:02:41 AM
And what do you suppose Gurn has been at work on all this time? ; )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on December 04, 2012, 04:22:39 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 04, 2012, 04:02:41 AM
And what do you suppose Gurn has been at work on all this time? ; )

Hah!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: xochitl on December 18, 2012, 02:13:36 PM
does anyone know if there is any recording of the 'original' 1904 5th symphony?

after hearing the description of the percussion im extremely curious
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 01, 2013, 07:15:20 AM
Updated list of Mahler reviews (in concert) on ionarts. I will likely have missed a few (and didn't include concerts that featured only a bit like Blumine), but it stands at 45 right now.


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6-2_YBRCuo0/UOMJpl1s5JI/AAAAAAAAFWo/QmqSwxxqlhc/s1600/Mahler_OTHER_laurson_600.jpg)
Mahler Reviews on Ionarts
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/08/mahler-reviews-on-ionarts.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/08/mahler-reviews-on-ionarts.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2013, 07:14:24 AM
Look out Mahler fans!

[asin]B000VXLHWG[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 18, 2013, 02:58:19 PM
Thought's on Rattle's live 1999 Mahler 7 with the BPO, compared with his EMI account.

IN BERLIN the strongest personality is here, and Rattle brings out markedly darker colours from the strings. ON Rattle's EMI account of the 7th I couldn't detect any particular personality. In any case, the sound is so markedly different between the live and EMI that engineering choices clearly take precedence. EMI is hazy and has exaggerated front to back depth, making the wind choirs very recessed indeed. To make sure I played the scherzo, and the theme played by the solo trumpet seems to have been recorded a mile aways. Winds are almost like wallpaper. Slick, glitzy engineering. Nice in a way, but too cotton candy-like for Mahler. These two Rattle's are amazingly different from one another (I listened to them whole recently). One feature I noticed is that Rattle, in both recordings - but especially so in Berlin - starts the work not with shimmering, hazy violin tremolos, but with sharply accented, electrically charged ones. The other end of the spectrum, the sound is bright, glowing and very precise at all levels. Altogether, this is extremely impressive and it certainly imposes itself as one of the incontournables (our French word of the day) among modern versions.

The live Berlin account is a sleeker, silkier string sound, and the brass tone has character, in sound, but sharper in profile. In Berlin Rattle clearly has sound, the harmonie as a conspectus instead of a series of individual sections with their own identity. That is most apparent in the first movement. Or maybe I just got used to it and stopped noticing anything unusual. The interpretation is tight-coiled and tense, determined but not hurried, powerful but never overbearing. The control over the mass of sound is amazing, and the very difficult rhythmic frame is x-rayed with uncommon clarity.

The EMI lacks any indication that the conductor has found that deep layer of heart-on-sleeve emotion that lies at the core of the first two movements. It's not cold (this is Bournemouth after all), but it's never very warm. The coda of the finale is particularly disappointing in that respect. It never radiates as it does in many, many recordings. Another disturbing element is the recording's total lack of soft dynamics. Forget about pp or ppp: a healthy p or mf is just about all we get. Is it the engineer's or the conductor's doing, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on January 22, 2013, 08:03:15 AM
Thanks, Leo. Your post reminds me that I've yet to peel back the shrink wrap from the Rattle/CBSO cycle I purchased last fall. Hard to imagine Rattie not OVER-emphasizing emotionalism, whether intrinsic to the music or read into it. Nor would I have imagined a "deep layer of heart-on-sleeve emotion that lies at the core of the first two movements" of the 7th, for in my admittedly imperfect memory I hear it as fundamentally intellectual, not emotional.

Guess I'm due for a fresh-eared listen!

Hmmm...think I'll set the stage by starting with the Abbado/Lucerne 7th on blu-ray that my sweet wife got me for Christmas (even though her own tolerance for Mahler is quite limited).

Okay, after listening to the first two movements of both, I still feel that "heart on sleeve emotionalism" would be a mistake, but I can certainly see them with a Wordsworthian "emotion recollected in time of tranquility" sensibility. And how interesting (as a counter-example to stereotypes) that Rattle here is restrained and Abbado is not! I'm surprised by how much I like this Rattle M7. Interests me in hearing the Berlin M7 you describe, apparently made shortly before Abbado's splendid BP M7 recording. It looks as if that's a bootleg recording, however there is a 2011 M7 Rattie/BP performance available in the BP's digital concert hall.

Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 25, 2013, 04:50:29 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on January 22, 2013, 08:03:15 AM
Thanks, Leo. Your post reminds me that I've yet to peel back the shrink wrap from the Rattle/CBSO cycle I purchased last fall. Hard to imagine Rattie not OVER-emphasizing emotionalism, whether intrinsic to the music or read into it. Nor would I have imagined a "deep layer of heart-on-sleeve emotion that lies at the core of the first two movements" of the 7th, for in my admittedly imperfect memory I hear it as fundamentally intellectual, not emotional.

Guess I'm due for a fresh-eared listen!

Hmmm...think I'll set the stage by starting with the Abbado/Lucerne 7th on blu-ray that my sweet wife got me for Christmas (even though her own tolerance for Mahler is quite limited).

Okay, after listening to the first two movements of both, I still feel that "heart on sleeve emotionalism" would be a mistake, but I can certainly see them with a Wordsworthian "emotion recollected in time of tranquility" sensibility. And how interesting (as a counter-example to stereotypes) that Rattle here is restrained and Abbado is not! I'm surprised by how much I like this Rattle M7. Interests me in hearing the Berlin M7 you describe, apparently made shortly before Abbado's splendid BP M7 recording. It looks as if that's a bootleg recording, however there is a 2011 M7 Rattie/BP performance available in the BP's digital concert hall.

Thanks David, sorry it took so long for me to reply, I am interested on reading your thoughts on Rattle's CBSO account when you get the chance :)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 25, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
I am now thinking of something crazy. No - not crazy - nutso. I had decided after a recent Mahler purchase that I would NOT buy any more Mahler for the rest of the year. He is not my favorite composer, and I already have several versions of pretty much all the symphonies. But then a crazy idea occurred to me, because I did eventually cave in and buy from the L'abeille sale. Those of you who have bought there before know they have points they give you after purchases. Well I got 42 points, or the same as 16.8 Euros. If you are with me so far, here comes the crazy part...

I could get the Mahler project set (Tilson Thomas) for about $125-130 if I use those points. The SFSO has this set for $175 (and I have not seen it lower than this at their site). I seem to remember it possible to get it on sale somewhere for $160, but it was at least a year ago. Amazon has it for no less than $200 (if new). Importcds has it for $169 (when importcds had their 10% discount, it still would have been $153). Arkiv has it for $260. Presto has it for $238 (so unlikely to go below $175 on sale). Now, I don't need any more Mahler, but I do know I would like #1 here as I ranked it second in the blind listening contest. Alas, MTT was not included in #6. But the reviews seem favorable for 6,7, and 8 (three of my favorites). I like the songs more the symphonies, but I don't really know how these compare.

Thing is, I probably would not listen to this right away (though one never knows). I would be buying it just to take advantage of a pretty good price. I have only until the end of the month to make a decision (assuming it stays in stock). So I would like to know 1) Is it really worth getting, 2) How are the songs, 3) I could always wait for a better sale somewhere, so has anyone seen a better price, and 4) Is it important to take advantage of the SACD layer or are the regular performances just fine? Thanks for your help in possibly spending my money!  :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 25, 2013, 06:23:44 PM
Isn't there something else, Neal, that you could buy instead? If you're not a big Mahler fan, then I don't see any value in owning something that you know could very well sit there for quite some time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on January 25, 2013, 08:23:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 25, 2013, 06:23:44 PM
Isn't there something else, Neal, that you could buy instead? If you're not a big Mahler fan, then I don't see any value in owning something that you know could very well sit there for quite some time.

John's very much on target.  No matter how good a deal it is,  and how good the performances are,  if you aren't going to listen to it,  it's not worth getting. 

Of course, I have sets that have been waiting months for me to play....

In answer to your questions out of order:  the non SACD layers are very good in terms of sonics;  the songs are variable, with a very good DLvdE  and Hampson singing Ruckert Lieder very well, but not as well as he did with Bernstein and the VPO--and only some of the Wunderhorn songs are included.  As for prices and possible sales, your guess is at least as good, and probably better, than mine.  I think several of the symphonies are given top of the line performances, including 7. 

I would say to get it if you really are going to listen to it
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 26, 2013, 06:45:24 AM
Neal, I understand the temptation, especially for such a beautifully recorded set of Mahler. It's in my top three Mahler cycle choices. You don't need the SACD player for these (unless you have 5.1 set up), I've listened to these on my SACD player and my iPhone and get the same enjoyment, probably because the mastering is so well done, the CD layer is great.

On the other hand, if Mahler is not your favorite, I would settle on getting the 1st symphony recording of this set, and perhaps the 2nd, 4th or the 9th as a second choice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 26, 2013, 07:57:30 AM
Revisting two of Bertini's live M9s, which I had ordered from Japan. I was interested in these because as much as I enjoy his M9 in the EMI box, it sounds murky.



(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/14/2/9/301.jpg)

Beatitude occurs in this performance...an ultimate surrender taken with peace and bliss. I was slightly let down by the playing of TMSO; it's not as secure as say, Bertini's own German orchestra who recorded the work for EMI previously. The Rondo (with captivating strides) has great energy, color and contrast, its twists and turns are very uplifting and exciting. The excellent sound catches every line of the Rondo as the music breathes and rotates. The Adagio is on the level of Bernstein's BSO account, and rises, sharp and intense with great impact in the climax...wow...thats the way I always wanted to hear that passage (Bernstein's BSO M9 comes close). All the climaxes are shattering with the low brass powerful and easily heard. The scherzo soars with powerful pastorale winds, rustic landscapes and dances with the successful execution from this studious orchestra. The first big crescendo near the beginning of the Andante Comodo is an example. This is a Bernstein/Karajan hybrid, and that describes this performance really well.


(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/26/6/3/802.jpg)

I. 28:09
II. 15:27
III. 13:09
IV.28:29

The orchestra's brass and woodwind sections make a few mistakes that are quite noticeable. This is surprising considering that they should have been well established in playing Mahler by the mid 80's in which it was recorded. Straight, earnest quality in the strings and strong brass make the adagio among the most tender and life affirming Adagios I have ever heard. This M9th is distinguished by Bertini's well controlled leadership and the smooth orchestral playing by VSO. The recording sound, which is a production of OTF, is pretty good too (the first movement are a highlight of this recording). Although not essential, I warmly recommend this for fans of Bertini's art. This performance has nuances not heard in his other accounts and I wouldn't want to be without it. The Adagio is on a par with his TMSO M9, but mistakes are heard here and there. Bertini guides the orchestra with strength and sculpts a performance that touches and uplifts. The sound is quite good for a live recording, with a somewhat limited dynamic range, but with wonderful balance and detail in the louder climaxes. Simply put this is a very good M9 from February of 1985. In interpretation it retains the hallmarks of Bertini's later recorded M9's but with "rougher" and edgy playing from the Vienna Symphony (even more rough than the TMSO), which brings a sense of innocence and discovery to the score.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2013, 08:50:48 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 26, 2013, 07:57:30 AM
[review of two live Mahler 9 performances, conducted by Gary Bertini]

Thanks Leo, interesting to read. I think Bertini is an excellent Mahlerian.
But from my chair, it would be too much ado to find and grab a copy of these recordings. And I'm also a bit 'fertig' with buying Mahler. I've already purchased loads of discs with his compositions and right now I'm more interested in .... other music.

Apart from that: I had this association when I read about the Bernstein climax. I dunno the Boston live performance you're mentioning, it's another rarity, but I think that the most dramatic M9 climax ever must have been realized during the performance by Bernstein and the Berliner Phil (1979). Apparently, the tension was rising so dramatically that a visitor, sitting behind the brass section, fell victim to a heart attack and died almost immediately (some noise can be heard if one's listening with headphones). This upset the entire trombone section and because of that they missed their cue.

(http://i50.tinypic.com/35l5l37.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 26, 2013, 09:30:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2013, 08:50:48 AM
Thanks Leo, interesting to read. I think Bertini is an excellent Mahlerian.
But from my chair, it would be too much ado to find and grab a copy of these recordings. And I'm also a bit 'fertig' with buying Mahler. I've already purchased loads of discs with his compositions and right now I'm more interested in .... other music.

Apart from that: I had this association when I read about the Bernstein climax. I dunno the Boston live performance you're mentioning, it's another rarity, but I think that the most dramatic M9 climax ever must have been realized during the performance by Bernstein and the Berliner Phil (1979). Apparently, the tension was rising so dramatically that a visitor, sitting behind the brass section, fell victim to a heart attack and died almost immediately (some noise can be heard if one's listening with headphones). This upset the entire trombone section and because of that they missed their cue.

(http://i50.tinypic.com/35l5l37.jpg)

Thanks Marc, the Bernstein M9 Boston recording I mention is on this release (unfortunately out of print). Not essential but fascinating and my favorite of Bernstein's M9s:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PTW0aahNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I LOVE the Berlin account too, despite the trombone problem! I haven't heard your version of this interesting upset during that concert. As you mention, if you listen with headphones, and turn it up really loud, you'll hear that something happened. Somebody had a heart attack, or fell out of a chair, etc. Something weird like that happened that night. There's a noise, like somebody falling, and then a few voices talking near there. You really have to listen for it, but it's there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2013, 10:23:09 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 26, 2013, 09:30:10 AM
Thanks Marc, the Bernstein M9 Boston recording I mention is on this release (unfortunately out of print). Not essential but fascinating and my favorite of Bernstein's M9s:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PTW0aahNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I LOVE the Berlin account too, despite the trombone problem! I haven't heard your version of this interesting upset during that concert. As you mention, if you listen with headphones, and turn it up really loud, you'll hear that something happened. Somebody had a heart attack, or fell out of a chair, etc. Something weird like that happened that night. There's a noise, like somebody falling, and then a few voices talking near there. You really have to listen for it, but it's there.

If I'm not mistaken, one can also hear some hesitation in the horns section (the entire brass section were sitting together IIRC).
I recently read this tragic story of the heart attack and that it was told by one of these hornists in an interview, but apparently it had appeared on the Amazon review site:

http://ypsmusic.blogspot.com/2012/06/missing-trombones-in-bernsteins-famous.html

And here's a link to Bernstein on Mahler 9 (check the follow-ups on the site itself):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SjAgSo7uro

I think what Lenny distinguishes from some other Mahler conductors (like Boulez) is said from about 6:20 in the first part of this documentary. The impossibility to save energy in the first climaxes, and the urge and necessity to give it all from bar 1 until the end.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 26, 2013, 11:31:10 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2013, 08:50:48 AM
(http://i50.tinypic.com/35l5l37.jpg)

Oh, I'm rather surprised to know that Bernstein made a performance with the Berliner Philharmoniker during the Karajan age! I knew Bernstein let Karajan conduct the NY Philharmonic, but Karajan never did the same with him and the BPO.
Anyway, it must be an excellent recording, Bernstein is absolutely one of the finest conductors of Mahler's music!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on January 26, 2013, 12:27:24 PM
Neal, the only Mahler cycles I have are Levine and Bernstein/NY, so I'm not qualified to comment, but if you have about $125 to burn on Mahler, maybe you'd consider the DVDs or Blu-Rays of the Concertgebouw's recent multi-conductor cycle? I saw the Blu-Ray set on MDT for $85.

EDIT: It does not include the Jansons Mahler 1 - it is with Harding instead, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 27, 2013, 08:39:41 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 27, 2013, 12:32:58 AM
it was the only time. lennie conveniently rehearsed the BPh to get ready for the M9 HvK would then go on to record with them.

So it was just for a rehearsal? I understand, thank you for the explanation.
That must have been a singular event....rehearsal with Bernstein and recording with Karajan; two conductors that had different conduting style and way of interpretation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 27, 2013, 08:54:40 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 27, 2013, 08:39:41 AM
So it was just for a rehearsal? I understand, thank you for the explanation.
That must have been a singular event....rehearsal with Bernstein and recording with Karajan; two conductors that had different conduting style and way of interpretation.

It was an actual concert if my memory serves me correctly! 8) A unique event not without it's drama.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 27, 2013, 08:55:37 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 27, 2013, 08:39:41 AM
So it was just for a rehearsal? I understand, thank you for the explanation.
That must have been a singular event....rehearsal with Bernstein and recording with Karajan; two conductors that had different conduting style and way of interpretation.

It wasn't a rehearsal. It was an actual concert.
Lenny did two Mahler 9 charity performances with the Berliner Phil in 1979 for Amnesty International. One of them was recorded, the famous 'no trombones' one. It was not an officially DG recording, but just for German broadcasting. After Lenny's death, the performance was licensed by DG and issued on CD.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 27, 2013, 09:06:13 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 27, 2013, 08:54:40 AM
It was an actual concert if my memory serves me correctly! 8) A unique event not without it's drama.
Quote from: Marc on January 27, 2013, 08:55:37 AM
It wasn't a rehearsal. It was an actual concert.
Lenny did two Mahler 9 charity performances with the Berliner Phil in 1979 for Amnesty International. One of them was recorded, the famous 'no trombones' one. It was not an officially DG recording, but just for German broadcasting. After Lenny's death, the performance was licensed by DG and issued on CD.

Now it's clearer, thank you gentlemen!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on January 27, 2013, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 27, 2013, 03:15:32 PM
No no... as clarified below. But he did get to rehears the work with the BPh (they didn't have much Mahler experience at all, then... only some guest performances by Barbirolli, really, since well before the war) -- and HvK's performances and recordings with the BPh in that repertoire greatly benefited from those rehearsals. That's what I meant.

All right, thank you for the clarification, Jens.
Well, the orchestra didn't have a too little Mahler experience, they had already recorded both the fifth and the sixth symphony before that time. Yes, I suppose they couldn't go without taking benefits in that repertoire from Bernstein's rehearsals.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on January 27, 2013, 06:22:26 PM
As I remember from the one time I've played that recording (Lenny/BP/M9) there's an awful lot of noise in the all--coughing,  doors opening/closing--enough that I missed whatever missed brass entrances and deaths in the audience there might have been.   

There was in fact enough offstage/audience noise that I've never really wanted to play the recording again.  It ruined the musical performance for me.

Reading about one of the audience members dying in the middle of the symphony only re-inforces that, I'm sad to say.

There was apparently a recording of Lenny conducting the Israel Philharmonic in M9 released last year (on the IP's own label, Helicon).  Has anyone heard that one?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 28, 2013, 09:42:28 AM
(http://www.cdbiblio.com/eingang/cdimages/img_mahler/mahler0023.jpg)
(The above is my preferred version of this recording, because it has nostalgic value)

If I do achieve an appreciation that eluded me before, it unfolds with difficulty, and a certain mistrust. I know enough about human psychology to know that I may be giving in to what I am supposed to believe, know, appreciate, love rather than really believing, knowing, appreciating and loving it. It has certainly been that way with my problem with the middle movement's of Mahler's 9th. Despite this, among the thousands of CDs in my collection, most are Mahler's 9 recordings, commercial and broadcast. I am fascinated by the genius and apparent problems with this work and Barbirolli's BPO M9 hovers at the top of my short list of recordings that ties the work together, somehow and brilliantly.

First, the question of the middle movements. Tchaikovsky's Symphony no.6 in B minor 'Pathétique' has helped me embrace Mahler's 9th symphony, especially the middle movements. Mahler appears to adopt the concept of Tchaikovsky's Pathétique symphony for his own ninth. Was the Shape of Mahler's Ninth Symphony inspired by the Tchaikovsky Sixth Symphony? Deryk Cooke pointed out that the shape of Mahler's Ninth is similar to that of the Pathétique. Both works have large first movements, with slow and fast passages: both begin and end quietly; both have dance-like movements, the Mahler alternating waltzes with ländler, the Tchaikovsky in 5/4 meter, which has been described as a 3/4 waltz with a limp; both third movements feature virtuoso marches; both have powerful adagio finales, which do not end so much as die out. It is implied that Mahler copied the form of Pathétique.

Sometime, circa 1901, Mahler was discussing the Pathétique with Guido Adler, a well-known musicologist and friend of his. As Natalie Bauer-Lechner notes (Recollections of Gustav Mahler by NBL), Mahler told Adler that he considered Pathétique,"...a shallow, superficial, distressingly homophobic work no better than salon music. Tchaikovsky's coloring is fake, sand thrown in someone's eyes! If you look closely, there is precious little there. Those rising and falling arpeggios, those meaningless sequences of chords, can't disguise the fundamental lack of invention and the emptiness." Why would Mahler copy the shape of a symphony he loathed? Why, after ignoring the Pathétique for some 16 or 17 years, did Mahler finally conduct it six times within a year (from the first time in January 1910 to the last time in January 1911)? All six performances (except one, in Rome, with an Italian orchestra) were with the New York Philharmonic in Carnegie Hall and in the Brooklyn Academy of Music.

Mrs. George R. Sheldon, the wife of a prominent banker, had established a committee with the aim of engaging Mahler to lead a "Mahler Orchestra" (really a revamping of the floundering New York Philharmonic). This would have guaranteed her heroic status in Mahler annals except that she and her New York Philharmonic Guarantors of well-to-do matrons plagued Mahler by dictating what should be on the programs (and occasionally criticizing his conducting!). Could it be that Mrs. Sheldon loved the Pathétique and insisted that Mahler conduct it frequently? We'll never know the connection.

I don't think I have ever read or heard anyone say that any movement of Barbirolli's M9 recording is too anything. One must not underestimate Barbirolli's importance as a Mahler conductor. Is it right to deprive Mahler of his neurotic polarities? Strictly speaking, no, but the result is sunny, ravishing and enjoyable. Barbirolli sees the symphony as a huge arc, as a Romantic symphony wearing modern clothes. To my ears, there is none of the push-pull, exaggerated (more or less) emphasis so many other recordings, even other great recordings, adopt with varying degrees. Glorious sound on my copy (EMI 1989 mastering) glorious playing, and a glorious interpretation. In his hands the great first movement flows without rhythmic complications. Even the most turbulent eruptions are sweet-sounding. This recording is the truth of Mahler's 9. At least for me personally.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 28, 2013, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 28, 2013, 07:15:57 AM
I'm not sure I understand you properly, but are you suggesting that the orchestra, by virtue of having recorded two symphonies some time before then, they did in fact have "not too little" (=sufficient??) "Mahler experience"?

Because in that case I'd counter with "You cannot be serious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY)". The numbers don't even begin to compare with other orchestras... even those that cracked down on Mahler during Third Reich compliance.

I dunno much about the history of the Berliner Phil, but I always understood that, apart from just making records, the Berliner Phil did also play Mahler in concerts during the Karajan period, yet not with Karajan himself.
Conductors like Böhm, Kubelik, Barbirolli and Giulini did do Mahler performances with the Berliner. It was Karajan himself who waited a long time to do Mahler, not the orchestra. But I guess that the orchestra was experienced enough, and of course they were very skilled and professional.

I must admit that I have never read the story about Bernstein rehearsing with the Berliner Phil in advance to the Karajan recording before. From what I've read about it, the entire Bernstein concert had nothing to do with either Karajan nor Deutsche Gramophon. Bernstein was invited by the Berliner Festwochen, who organized the Amnesty charity concert. And the Berliner Phil were the 'house orchestra' for the Berliner Festwochen. If even he had wanted to (because f.i. Bernstein's approach to Mahler was rather different), Karajan could not interfere with it.

EDIT: I see that Leo has just posted a Barbirolli with Berlin story .... an interesting read.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on January 28, 2013, 11:08:55 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on January 28, 2013, 10:02:26 AM
sure, skilled and professional is one thing. idiomatic familiarity helps, too, though... very interesting to see the data on various performances of Mahler in an orchestra's history. Even Vienna started very slow, until Bernstein made them perform the music which they were very reluctant to touch. Only RCO has been playing on all cylinders throughout, followed by NYPO.

Also didn't mean to suggest that Bernstein was actually meant to rehearse the BPh for HvK's Mahler... only cheeky statement that that's what he ended up doing de facto.  ;)

You can't be serious! No mistakes so far, eh? There was chalk dust!
You dude, you are a disgrace to this sport board!


Well, at least you gave me the chance to watch some clips of me ole fave Big Mac again! ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 29, 2013, 04:26:05 AM

Going through the Berlin-Mahler numbers right now and finding some morsels. Furtwaengler conducting Mahler 3 (Hilde Ellger singing), for example.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on January 29, 2013, 04:27:47 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 28, 2013, 09:42:28 AM
I don't think I have ever read or heard anyone say that any movement of Barbirolli's M9 recording is too anything. One must not underestimate Barbirolli's importance as a Mahler conductor. Is it right to deprive Mahler of his neurotic polarities? Strictly speaking, no, but the result is sunny, ravishing and enjoyable. Barbirolli sees the symphony as a huge arc, as a Romantic symphony wearing modern clothes. To my ears, there is none of the push-pull, exaggerated (more or less) emphasis so many other recordings, even other great recordings, adopt with varying degrees. Glorious sound on my copy (EMI 1989 mastering) glorious playing, and a glorious interpretation. In his hands the great first movement flows without rhythmic complications. Even the most turbulent eruptions are sweet-sounding. This recording is the truth of Mahler's 9. At least for me personally.
Barbirolli is certainly in the front rank of Mahler conductors for me--all three EMI recordings are very fine and have much to say about the work (the 5th and 9th closer to the mainstream than the 6th, obviously). I should revisit these recordings: the 5th and 9th were outright favourites for a long time before I heard Barshai, Chailly and Gewandhaus/Neumann (in the 5th) and Ancerl and Maderna (in the 9th).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 10:51:13 AM
I need to revisit those Barbirolli Mahler recordings. I recall them being excellent. I remember liking his 9th a lot.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 30, 2013, 04:42:31 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 29, 2013, 10:51:13 AM
I need to revisit those Barbirolli Mahler recordings. I recall them being excellent. I remember liking his 9th a lot.

I also want to revisit Barbirolli's M6, which I feel I've overlooked for too many years, it's so original and memorable, only Karajan's M6 and Lenny's DG M6 makes such a mark on my mind. Lenny's DG M6 is my usual go-to, and will always be special. I have many, many accounts of the M6, and it's been fun, but not many stick out like Barbirolli, Karajan, Haitink, and Bernstein. I often look over my Mahler M6 shelves and think, "I could live with just Barbirolli, Karajan, Haitink and Bernstein, why don't I just sell the rest?" But as a collector it takes all those other accounts to remind me of the really amazing accounts. And as a collector, I'm not always out to get my mind blown!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2013, 07:07:23 AM
QuoteI'm not sure I understand you properly, but are you suggesting that the orchestra, by virtue of having recorded two symphonies some time before then, they did in fact have "not too little" (=sufficient??) "Mahler experience"?

No, they were only two examples, strictly concerning the Karajan age. Anyway, I don't know all the history of the BPO recordings, but Mahler's music wasn't new to the orchestra before Bernstein's rehearsals/concerts, they made performances with Barbirolli, Bohm, Kempe, Horenstein and Karajan, without forgetting that Mahler himself conducted the Berliner Philharmoniker for the premiere of his Symphony No.2. Maybe they didn't have as much experience as other orchestras had, but it wasn't too little though.

It seems that we tend to tease each other a little about Karajan.....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 02, 2013, 07:23:12 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2013, 07:07:23 AM
No, they were only two examples, strictly concerning the Karajan age. Anyway, I don't know all the history of the BPO recordings, but Mahler's music wasn't new to the orchestra before Bernstein's rehearsals/concerts, they made performances with Barbirolli, Bohm, Kempe, Horenstein and Karajan, without forgetting that Mahler himself conducted the Berliner Philharmoniker for the premiere of his Symphony No.2. Maybe they didn't have as much experience as other orchestras had, but it wasn't too little though.

My opinion too, the BPO was certainly not lacking in experience with Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 02, 2013, 08:17:44 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cp7pX1N1L._SL500_SS500_.jpg)
(Note: my preferred mastering of this recording is the EMI release)

Time is important, too. To understand Mahler's 9th symphony means not just to hear it with today's ears. If you know the context in which and from which it was born, not only biographically, historically and socially but also artistically, then you have another facet of its "meaning" to help appreciate the gestalt. While it is born of a time and place the music should transcend its time, like any great music, it must also transcend it. It must provide the listener with the totality of time, a continuum. Mahler evokes the existential qualities but does not transcend them, it is all struggle. In my opinion, other performances do not capture the totality of the emotions in the music as heard in this 1938 recording. A modern recording may skate over the surface and may be beautifully recorded but that is not enough. Walter was on hand with his technical assistants to commit this event to disc. Listening to this extraordinary performance today, one becomes an eavesdropper on a vanished style of orchestral playing: the players, with their studied lilt, their poised rubato and their unanimous portamenti, are speaking a shared local dialect. This is how Mahler himself made them sound, one imagines, and theirs is an artistic tradition, soon to be despoiled, that for a memorable hour or so on that winter evening was still perfectly coherent and intact.

I'll cut to the quick and assert that this recording of Mahler's 9th is one of the great ones. With who is it comparable is not a meaningful question because in the last analysis any great recording rises above comparison. There are, rather, other facets that need to be looked at. Yes, not to the degree that would compromise the power of the performance. My only significant reservation is that the last movement is taken a little bit too quickly to be a true adagio (for what it is worth, I have heard that Walter later complained that the recording team made him play it faster than he wanted to). On the 16th January 1938, in the old hall of the Musikverein, Bruno Walter conducted the Vienna Philharmonic in a valedictory performance of Mahler's 9th symphony. The occasion was special in many ways. Walter was the work's dedicatee, and had given its premiere a quarter of a century before; the orchestra was Walter's own, as it had once been Mahler's; notables, including Austrian Chancellor, Kurt von Schuschnigg, were present in the hall, and F.W. Gaisberg, the pioneering record producer. Lovers of Maestro Mahler's music deserve to have this CD in their collection. Although there are a number of very fine performances of this symphony in good stereo sound, this historic interpretation, given in the shadow of the Nazi takeover of Austria that everyone present knew was just about to occur, has a headlong urgency and intensity that, in my opinion, no subsequent recording has fully matched.

Walter phrases with a natural elasticity of rubato, especially in the opening andante commodo movement, that highlights the marked fluctuations of tension within the music and projects its expressive rhetoric into sharper relief. Moreover, the prewar Vienna Philharmonic further enhances these qualities with its distinctive way of leaning into phrases that, in my opinion, imparts to them added profile and force. There are, admittedly, imprecision of ensemble here and there, but those who already have a Mahler 9 and wish to supplement their valuable Mahler collection with historical recordings and alternative interpretations, have no hesitation whatsoever in purchasing this CD! One can get no more historical. This was Bruno Walter's last prewar performance with the VPO before he fled the Drittes Reich. Listen to the music and feel the tension of those last remaining days before the war. One can argue about the quality of playing, no one can say the sound quality is high (though in view of the date - 1938, the engineers in charge of remastering my EMI copy have done themselves proud). But listen carefully and you'll realize beneath the noise the performance is white-hot in intensity. No other Mahler 9s I have heard, except maybe Barbirolli and Karajan in Berlin, approaches that level of emotion. Listening is believing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on February 02, 2013, 11:56:45 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 02, 2013, 08:17:44 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cp7pX1N1L._SL500_SS500_.jpg)

If you don't know this recording and think you should, you don't have to rush out and buy it. You can hear it via several sources on the web, here at youtube, for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3eUKpw21ASc
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 02, 2013, 04:18:19 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2013, 07:07:23 AM
No, they were only two examples, strictly concerning the Karajan age. Anyway, I don't know all the history of the BPO recordings, but Mahler's music wasn't new to the orchestra before Bernstein's rehearsals/concerts, they made performances with Barbirolli, Bohm, Kempe, Horenstein and Karajan, without forgetting that Mahler himself conducted the Berliner Philharmoniker for the premiere of his Symphony No.2. Maybe they didn't have as much experience as other orchestras had, but it wasn't too little though.

It seems that we tend to tease each other a little about Karajan.....

Quote from: Leo K. on February 02, 2013, 07:23:12 AM
My opinion too, the BPO was certainly not lacking in experience with Mahler.

Less opinion, more facts:

The Berlin Philharmonic, prior to Bernstein's October 1979 M9 performance, had played that symphony only on 11 occasions.

Further, in just over half a century (from February 29 until that October), the BPh had performed it on only 5 occasions! That's once per decade.

But after Bernstein, starting in 1982, Karajan took that Symphony and performed it on seven occasions (and more than once on many of those occasions) in the 80s alone.


While it is true that the BPh had a Mahler history (eight performances of Mahler Symphonies by 1911 and a notable 80 performances in the next twenty years leading up to 1931), that history came to a crashing halt thanks to the Hitlerites. In the next three decades -- the 30s, 40s, and 50s, the BPh managed only for 23 performances. A slow recovery in the 60s (21 performances) and then jumping on the Mahler-boom-town-band-wagon in the 70s with 42 performances. Fewer in the 80s, but now with a Karajan-Mahler-Cycle. (Who knew!)

From then on,  they were in lockstep with other modern orchestras and their Mahler-embrace.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 03, 2013, 05:14:30 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 28, 2013, 09:42:28 AM
(http://www.cdbiblio.com/eingang/cdimages/img_mahler/mahler0023.jpg)
(The above is my preferred version of this recording, because it has nostalgic value)

If I do achieve an appreciation that eluded me before, it unfolds with difficulty, and a certain mistrust. I know enough about human psychology to know that I may be giving in to what I am supposed to believe, know, appreciate, love rather than really believing, knowing, appreciating and loving it. It has certainly been that way with my problem with the middle movement's of Mahler's 9th. Despite this, among the thousands of CDs in my collection, most are Mahler's 9 recordings, commercial and broadcast. I am fascinated by the genius and apparent problems with this work and Barbirolli's BPO M9 hovers at the top of my short list of recordings that ties the work together, somehow and brilliantly.

First, the question of the middle movements. Tchaikovsky's Symphony no.6 in B minor 'Pathétique' has helped me embrace Mahler's 9th symphony, especially the middle movements. Mahler appears to adopt the concept of Tchaikovsky's Pathétique symphony for his own ninth. Was the Shape of Mahler's Ninth Symphony inspired by the Tchaikovsky Sixth Symphony? Deryk Cooke pointed out that the shape of Mahler's Ninth is similar to that of the Pathétique. Both works have large first movements, with slow and fast passages: both begin and end quietly; both have dance-like movements, the Mahler alternating waltzes with ländler, the Tchaikovsky in 5/4 meter, which has been described as a 3/4 waltz with a limp; both third movements feature virtuoso marches; both have powerful adagio finales, which do not end so much as die out. It is implied that Mahler copied the form of Pathétique.

Sometime, circa 1901, Mahler was discussing the Pathétique with Guido Adler, a well-known musicologist and friend of his. As Natalie Bauer-Lechner notes (Recollections of Gustav Mahler by NBL), Mahler told Adler that he considered Pathétique,"...a shallow, superficial, distressingly homophobic work no better than salon music. Tchaikovsky's coloring is fake, sand thrown in someone's eyes! If you look closely, there is precious little there. Those rising and falling arpeggios, those meaningless sequences of chords, can't disguise the fundamental lack of invention and the emptiness." Why would Mahler copy the shape of a symphony he loathed? Why, after ignoring the Pathétique for some 16 or 17 years, did Mahler finally conduct it six times within a year (from the first time in January 1910 to the last time in January 1911)? All six performances (except one, in Rome, with an Italian orchestra) were with the New York Philharmonic in Carnegie Hall and in the Brooklyn Academy of Music.

Mrs. George R. Sheldon, the wife of a prominent banker, had established a committee with the aim of engaging Mahler to lead a "Mahler Orchestra" (really a revamping of the floundering New York Philharmonic). This would have guaranteed her heroic status in Mahler annals except that she and her New York Philharmonic Guarantors of well-to-do matrons plagued Mahler by dictating what should be on the programs (and occasionally criticizing his conducting!). Could it be that Mrs. Sheldon loved the Pathétique and insisted that Mahler conduct it frequently? We'll never know the connection.

Coinsidently, I was comparing the emotional structures of Tchaikovsky 6 and Mahler 9 myself a little while ago so I find this very interesting, Leo. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 03, 2013, 05:53:37 AM
Thanks for reading Daniel! The 'Pathétique' and the M9 are endlessly fascinating works, and due to Mahler's comments and performance history with Tchaikovsky's symphony, a comparison can certainly be investigated.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 03, 2013, 05:56:21 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 03, 2013, 05:53:37 AM
Thanks for reading Daniel! The 'Pathétique' and the M9 are endlessly fascinating works, and due to Mahler's comments and performance history with Tchaikovsky's symphony, a comparison can certainly be investigated.

My pleasure! And yes, two of my favourites in fact, so it would be very fascinating to investigate further into their comparison! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 03, 2013, 06:02:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 02, 2013, 04:18:19 PM

Less opinion, more facts:


QuoteEight performances of Mahler Symphonies by 1911 and a notable 80 performances in the next twenty years leading up to 1931, in the next three decades -- the 30s, 40s, and 50s, the BPh managed only for 23 performances. A slow recovery in the 60s (21 performances) and then jumping on the Mahler-boom-town-band-wagon in the 70s with 42 performances.

Since you are not interested in my opinion, thanks for providing the facts to support my opinion that the BPO had a Mahler history before Bernstein.  :) Thats plenty of Mahler performances before Bernstein.



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 03, 2013, 06:54:05 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 03, 2013, 06:02:11 AM
Since you are not interested in my opinion, thanks for providing the facts to support my opinion that the BPO had a Mahler history before Bernstein.  :) Thats plenty of Mahler performances before Bernstein.

You're welcome. That's the beauty of numbers: everyone can make their own conclusions based on them, but at least then there's a fix, commonly accepted premise to which one can draw on and point to.

(Incidentally my original point was specifically about the Ninth Symphony and how Bernstein's rehearsals laid the groundwork for HvK's subsequent performances and recordings.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 03, 2013, 11:11:42 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 03, 2013, 06:54:05 AM
(Incidentally my original point was specifically about the Ninth Symphony and how Bernstein's rehearsals laid the groundwork for HvK's subsequent performances and recordings.) At least then there's a fix, commonly accepted premise to which one can draw on and point to.


Ah I see, you mean the 9th symphony, not Mahler's works in general. That makes sense.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 11, 2013, 12:19:10 PM
Mahler: Symphony No. 6
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
Mark Wigglesworth (Conductor)
Melbourne Symphony Orchestra (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TJY83gyJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Mark Wigglesworth's timings are just right, with tempo transitions and key passages phrased with nuance and elan, without losing the sense of urgency. I agree with a review from Amazon that describes this recording as "Disciplined and Passionate."

The Melbourne really shines, there's nothing I didn't enjoy in the execution. Details in the inner voices are very much appreciated.

Each movement seems to develop naturally from the next, as if caught in an inevitable progress. Wigglesworth has good sense not to rush the calmer, lyrical passages, such as the pastoral episodes in the faster movements. Somehow, he dwells on these passages without slowing down or holding up the urgent proceedings. The Andante doesn't sound dead in the water. There is a beautiful flowing consistancy, and doesn't feel like it takes forever to get to the finale.

While listening, I heard shades of Karajan, Sanderling, Boulez and Bertini, but Wigglesworth is definitely his own man, and I have to say, he shows that the M6 has a sensitive, gentle side too, without holding back on the climaxes. The stillness of the first trio in the scherzo is an excellant example of this effect.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 08:36:32 AM
 
Mahler: Symphony No. 9 [Hybrid SACD - DSD]
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
David Zinman (Conductor)
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B4QhTb9QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Zinman's M9 reminds me somewhat of Nott's recent account, but sounds like it was created on a bigger scale, or larger canvas.  Nott's is perhaps a little more personal in tone, but Zinman's interpretation is both personal, AND cosmic.

You can be rest assured about the climaxes...the sonics and orchestra are more than up to the challenge.  As a matter of fact, Zinman's orchestra is the one element that puts him slightly ahead of Nott.  Nott's M9 is like a sister to Zinman's account.  I like both, and both are of the highest standard in playing, tone, and drama for an M9 of the 21st Century.  I have a feeling you will be very impressed with the playing.

I still love the Rattle Berlin M9, but it can't compete in terms of sonics. Zinman, Nott, Oue, and Thomas are the creme of the crop in terms of sonics.

The third climax in the first movement may be the most impressive sonically, in terms of hearing all that is in the score here.  The rusticity of the minuet will make you smile, again, I have to mention how fine the orchestra is, especially in dynamics.

The blooming crescendos in the Rondo will surprise you. AND the final climax in the Adagio will blow your mind. The sonics are perhaps the best of the cycle. Matching and perhaps exceeding his M3, M6 and M8 recordings.

The tempos, again, are like Nott, meaning that Zinman is patient, and there is no unnecessary rushing during any of the climaxes, thank God.  I like how the climaxes in I. are not rushed.  The tempos are treated with thought, and care, during the transitions all over the score.  Energy is not wasted, and this brings huge dividends later as the score progresses movement to movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 13, 2013, 08:46:21 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 08:36:32 AM

Mahler: Symphony No. 9 [Hybrid SACD - DSD]
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
David Zinman (Conductor)
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B4QhTb9QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Zinman's M9 reminds me somewhat of Nott's recent account, but sounds like it was created on a bigger scale, or larger canvas.  Nott's is perhaps a little more personal in tone, but Zinman's interpretation is both personal, AND cosmic.

You can be rest assured about the climaxes...the sonics and orchestra are more than up to the challenge.  As a matter of fact, Zinman's orchestra is the one element that puts him slightly ahead of Nott.  Nott's M9 is like a sister to Zinman's account.  I like both, and both are of the highest standard in playing, tone, and drama for an M9 of the 21st Century.  I have a feeling you will be very impressed with the playing.

I still love the Rattle Berlin M9, but it can't compete in terms of sonics. Zinman, Nott, Oue, and Thomas are the creme of the crop in terms of sonics.

The third climax in the first movement may be the most impressive sonically, in terms of hearing all that is in the score here.  The rusticity of the minuet will make you smile, again, I have to mention how fine the orchestra is, especially in dynamics.

The blooming crescendos in the Rondo will surprise you. AND the final climax in the Adagio will blow your mind. The sonics are perhaps the best of the cycle. Matching and perhaps exceeding his M3, M6 and M8 recordings.

The tempos, again, are like Nott, meaning that Zinman is patient, and there is no unnecessary rushing during any of the climaxes, thank God.  I like how the climaxes in I. are not rushed.  The tempos are treated with thought, and care, during the transitions all over the score.  Energy is not wasted, and this brings huge dividends later as the score progresses movement to movement.
Just FYI - I haven't commented on any of your lengthy posts, but I have been reading them with pleasure. Keep up the listening (and posting!)!
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 10:15:36 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 13, 2013, 08:46:21 AM
Just FYI - I haven't commented on any of your lengthy posts, but I have been reading them with pleasure. Keep up the listening (and posting!)!

Thank you very much Mc urkrneal :)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 13, 2013, 10:48:43 AM
Me too, thank you for the posts, Leo, always interesting!

I might have to investigate that Zinman M9 then.... the Rattle BPO you mention is a favourite, alongside the classic Karajan later. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 13, 2013, 10:49:19 AM
I had a few minutes to go back and catch the comments on the Tchaikovsky Sixth and Mahler's time in New York.

Mahler might have conducted it out of mercenary considerations: that is a possibility.  But I suspect that after the third or fourth time he might have balked.  And why bother to conduct it in Rome, where the New York dowagers were not involved?

I suspect that as time passed Mahler re-evaluated his attitude, and hearing the work with older ears he discovered admirable things.

The egos of artists can be strange things, and may prevent them from admitting at first that another composer - and every composer is a rival suitor for the ears, hearts, and souls of the audience - has produced a great work.

I noticed in the quotation from Bauer-Lechner this line:

QuoteMahler told Adler that he considered Pathétique,"...a shallow, superficial, distressingly homophobic work no better than salon music.

I am betting that should be homophonic instead!   0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on February 13, 2013, 10:58:21 AM
Nice post, Cato.  And especially:

Quote from: Cato on February 13, 2013, 10:49:19 AM
. . . I suspect that as time passed Mahler re-evaluated his attitude, and hearing the work with older ears he discovered admirable things.

Early on, Schoenberg did not think particularly well of Mahler, IIRC.  And later, he changed his mind.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 13, 2013, 11:28:38 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 08:36:32 AM

Mahler: Symphony No. 9 [Hybrid SACD - DSD]
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
David Zinman (Conductor)
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B4QhTb9QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Zinman's M9 reminds me somewhat of Nott's recent account, but sounds like it was created on a bigger scale, or larger canvas.  Nott's is perhaps a little more personal in tone, but Zinman's interpretation is both personal, AND cosmic.

You can be rest assured about the climaxes...the sonics and orchestra are more than up to the challenge.  As a matter of fact, Zinman's orchestra is the one element that puts him slightly ahead of Nott.  Nott's M9 is like a sister to Zinman's account.  I like both, and both are of the highest standard in playing, tone, and drama for an M9 of the 21st Century.  I have a feeling you will be very impressed with the playing.

I still love the Rattle Berlin M9, but it can't compete in terms of sonics. Zinman, Nott, Oue, and Thomas are the creme of the crop in terms of sonics.

The third climax in the first movement may be the most impressive sonically, in terms of hearing all that is in the score here.  The rusticity of the minuet will make you smile, again, I have to mention how fine the orchestra is, especially in dynamics.

The blooming crescendos in the Rondo will surprise you. AND the final climax in the Adagio will blow your mind. The sonics are perhaps the best of the cycle. Matching and perhaps exceeding his M3, M6 and M8 recordings.

The tempos, again, are like Nott, meaning that Zinman is patient, and there is no unnecessary rushing during any of the climaxes, thank God.  I like how the climaxes in I. are not rushed.  The tempos are treated with thought, and care, during the transitions all over the score.  Energy is not wasted, and this brings huge dividends later as the score progresses movement to movement.

Thanks for the great description, Leo, it's very interesting! I've enjoyed Zinman's recordings of Mahler No.5 & 6 very much, I would like to listen to the 9th symphony too.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 12:51:19 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 13, 2013, 10:49:19 AM
I had a few minutes to go back and catch the comments on the Tchaikovsky Sixth and Mahler's time in New York.

Mahler might have conducted it out of mercenary considerations: that is a possibility.  But I suspect that after the third or fourth time he might have balked.  And why bother to conduct it in Rome, where the New York dowagers were not involved?

I suspect that as time passed Mahler re-evaluated his attitude, and hearing the work with older ears he discovered admirable things.

The egos of artists can be strange things, and may prevent them from admitting at first that another composer - and every composer is a rival suitor for the ears, hearts, and souls of the audience - has produced a great work.

I noticed in the quotation from Bauer-Lechner this line:

I am betting that should be homophonic instead!   0:)

I am embarrassed over my typo! Thanks for correcting that Cato, and thanks for thoughtful post. I am also of
the opinion that Mahler regarded the Tchaikovsky 6 in better terms over time. This similarity between Tchaikovsky's 6 and Mahler's 9 is endlessly fascinating to me personally.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 13, 2013, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 12:51:19 PM
I am embarrassed over my typo! Thanks for correcting that Cato, and thanks for thoughtful post.

I am also of the opinion that Mahler regarded the Tchaikovsky 6 in better terms over time. This similarity between Tchaikovsky's 6 and Mahler's 9 is endlessly fascinating to me personally.

Well, Freud would have his own theories,  ;)   but more prosaically one sees that "B"  and "N" are right next to each other!

It is interesting that an Ergebung vor dem Tode haunts both works, even though both composers were working on large-scale compositions for the future.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: trung224 on February 13, 2013, 02:09:00 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 08:36:32 AM

Mahler: Symphony No. 9 [Hybrid SACD - DSD]
Gustav Mahler (Composer)
David Zinman (Conductor)
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B4QhTb9QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Zinman's M9 reminds me somewhat of Nott's recent account, but sounds like it was created on a bigger scale, or larger canvas.  Nott's is perhaps a little more personal in tone, but Zinman's interpretation is both personal, AND cosmic.

You can be rest assured about the climaxes...the sonics and orchestra are more than up to the challenge.  As a matter of fact, Zinman's orchestra is the one element that puts him slightly ahead of Nott.  Nott's M9 is like a sister to Zinman's account.  I like both, and both are of the highest standard in playing, tone, and drama for an M9 of the 21st Century.  I have a feeling you will be very impressed with the playing.

I still love the Rattle Berlin M9, but it can't compete in terms of sonics. Zinman, Nott, Oue, and Thomas are the creme of the crop in terms of sonics.

The third climax in the first movement may be the most impressive sonically, in terms of hearing all that is in the score here.  The rusticity of the minuet will make you smile, again, I have to mention how fine the orchestra is, especially in dynamics.

The blooming crescendos in the Rondo will surprise you. AND the final climax in the Adagio will blow your mind. The sonics are perhaps the best of the cycle. Matching and perhaps exceeding his M3, M6 and M8 recordings.

The tempos, again, are like Nott, meaning that Zinman is patient, and there is no unnecessary rushing during any of the climaxes, thank God.  I like how the climaxes in I. are not rushed.  The tempos are treated with thought, and care, during the transitions all over the score.  Energy is not wasted, and this brings huge dividends later as the score progresses movement to movement.
Excellent review, Leo K. I am not fan of Zinman, but his Mahler 9  is very good, with highlight on clarity and clear voice. I think his approach suits best with the somewhat modern-influence symphony like the Seventh, Eight and Ninth. Even though, I still dissatisfies with the first movement of the Ninth, when despair feeling and emotion contrast was solely lacking.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 13, 2013, 07:34:04 PM
Quote from: trung224 on February 13, 2013, 02:09:00 PM
    Excellent review, Leo K. I am not fan of Zinman, but his Mahler 9  is very good, with highlight on clarity and clear voice. I think his approach suits best with the somewhat modern-influence symphony like the Seventh, Eight and Ninth. Even though, I still dissatisfies with the first movement of the Ninth, when despair feeling and emotion contrast was solely lacking.

Thank you Trung, I appreciate your thoughts, I also feel Zinman is highly successful in 7,8 and 9.

Zinman's M3 is possibly my favorite of his cycle. It's a slow grower but it hits you after numerous listens!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 10:35:36 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on February 13, 2013, 10:58:21 AM
Early on, Schoenberg did not think particularly well of Mahler, IIRC.  And later, he changed his mind.

Quote from: Arnold Schoenberg. . . Here I must confess that I, too, at first considered Mahler's themes banal.  I consider it important to admit that I was Saul before I became Paul, since it may thence be deduced that those 'fine discriminations' of which certain opponents are so proud were not foreign to me. But they are foreign to me now, ever since my increasingly intense perception of the beauty and magnificence of Mahler's work has brought me to the point of admitting that it is not fine discrimination, but, on the contrary, the most blatant lack of the power of discrimination, which produces such judgements. I had found Mahler's themes banal, although the whole work had always made a profound impression on me. Today, with the worst will in the world, I could not react this way. Consider this: if they were really banal I should find them far more banal today than formerly.  For banal means rustic, and describes something which belongs to a low grade of culture, to no culture at all. In lower grades of culture there is found, not what is absolutely false or bad, but what used to be right, what is obsolete, what has been outlived, what is no longer true. The peasant does not behave badly, but archaically, just as those of a higher rank behaved before they knew better. Therefore, the banal represents a backward state of ethics and state of mind, which was once the state of mind of the higher ranks; it was not banal from the beginning, but became banal only when it was pushed aside by new and better customs. But it cannot rise up again — once it is banal, it must stay banal. And if I now maintain that I can no longer find these themes banal, they can never have been so; for a banal idea, an idea which appears obsolete and worn-out to me, can only appear more banal on closer acquaintance — but in no case noble. But if now I discover that the oftener I look at these ideas the more new beauties and noble traits are added to them, doubt is no longer possible: the idea is the opposite of banal. It is not something that we were long ago done with and cannot misunderstand, but something the deepest meaning of which is as yet far from completely revealed, something so profound that we have not become aware of more than its superficial appearance. And, in fact, this has happened not only to Mahler, but also to nearly all other great composers, who had to submit to the accusation of banality. I call to mind only Wagner and Brahms. I think that the change in my feeling provides a better yardstick than the judgement on first hearing which everyone is very quick to come out with as soon as he runs into a situation which he really does not understand.

From Style and Idea: Selected Writings of Arnold Schoenberg pp.455-456.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 14, 2013, 07:13:16 PM
Zinman's M9 has been my favorite recording of that symphony since I first heard it, principally on the strength of the last movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: NJ Joe on February 15, 2013, 05:57:07 PM
Hello.  I'm going to be honest:  it has taken me longer to get my head around Mahler than any other composer.  I tried on and off over the course of several years, purchasing various recordings of several different symphonies. Don't know what it was...perhaps my own expectations of what the music was going to be...but I just couldn't connect.  It was actually quite frustrating.

I'm certain it was partly because I couldn't or wouldn't accept his "everything but the kitchen sink" approach...the extreme mood changes within a matter of minutes...the roller coaster ride was too much.

But about three months ago, it finally began to click. On the way to work one morning I heard part of a recording of the 9th symphony, preceded by commentary about the work.  I really enjoyed what I heard. I e-mailed the DJ and asked who it was, and he replied that it was Benjamin Zander.  Not long after, I purchased the remastered Bernstein NYPO set. I started with the third symphony and was immediately captivated. It's been in my regular rotation ever since. 

I have since purchased several recordings recommended on this thread and am discovering this great music for the first time.  It is an extraordinary experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 15, 2013, 06:18:16 PM
Dudamel is taking another stab at Mahler.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518BZ2HezsL._SY300_.jpg)
Official release date is next week. 

Searching for the image on Amazon,  I noticed that last year's performance of the Eighth in Caracas was released on DVD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cwIVOrNlL._SY300_.jpg)
I'm pretty sure at least one GMGer was impressed by his Eighth. 

Hopefully these will be better than his First, which is also available on DVD.   
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 16, 2013, 06:50:50 AM
Quote from: Jersey Joe on February 15, 2013, 05:57:07 PM
Hello.  I'm going to be honest:  it has taken me longer to get my head around Mahler than any other composer.  I tried on and off over the course of several years, purchasing various recordings of several different symphonies. Don't know what it was...perhaps my own expectations of what the music was going to be...but I just couldn't connect.  It was actually quite frustrating.

I'm certain it was partly because I couldn't or wouldn't accept his "everything but the kitchen sink" approach...the extreme mood changes within a matter of minutes...the roller coaster ride was too much.

But about three months ago, it finally began to click. On the way to work one morning I heard part of a recording of the 9th symphony, preceded by commentary about the work.  I really enjoyed what I heard. I e-mailed the DJ and asked who it was, and he replied that it was Benjamin Zander.  Not long after, I purchased the remastered Bernstein NYPO set. I started with the third symphony and was immediately captivated. It's been in my regular rotation ever since. 

I have since purchased several recordings recommended on this thread and am discovering this great music for the first time.  It is an extraordinary experience.

Good post, and I have to say, it has also taken me years to listen to Mahler, and my views on the music have changed over time. I struggle with him sometimes, yet his symphonies occupy more of my collection that anything else!

Mahler is the modern composer par excellence. His music mirrors almost all our current hopes and anxieties, and this it does for many, many people. A new generation of scholars tells us it is about love. Can't it be both? What is more quintessentially Romantic than this mingling of love and mortality? Mahler's symphonies are excitingly close to our contemporary life and reality. We critical mindset doesn't easily allow for mixed emotions. Even in music, we seem limited to only letting music be one thing at a time.

Many years ago, many conductors and musicologists thought the Adagietto of the Fifth Symphony was about death, now (in a way) that feels truthful. This state of being seems far removed from our modern mindset- we live in an era of taking sides. Life today is held to be happy or sad, not happy and sad. Our public discourse says Gustav Mahler is the composer of contradictions and paradoxes. He is the composer of ambiguities, contrasts, complexities and cognitive dissonance. A huge part of Mahler's genius is in his ability to create music in which seemingly incompatible ideas are able to coexist.

On the other hand, Mahler's music appears to be a continuation of Joseph Haydn, a gigantic-romantic version of Papa. Mahler's need to sweep up folk song, military musical recollections and country dances to form his symphonies put him surprisingly close to Haydn who, in his Symphony No. 100, was collecting earlier artifacts for similar reasons. Haydn brought "Turkish" military sounds to his London audience to spice music already livened by Austrian country dances and courtly musical references.

In both there is a sense of singing melodic line — of melodies rooted in song, as in Mahler's early symphonies, or in the chamber music of Haydn's. Another is a penchant for wresting substantial music from concise thematic ideas, for "developing" brief motifs in consequential ways. Finally, the works of each composer often entail arresting musical dramas. and anxieties, and this it does for many, many people. Mahler's own compositions — his great symphonies and song cycles — seem, on first consideration, quite unlike those of Haydn. In contrast to the Classical proportions, demeanor and economy of Haydn's work, Mahler created on an expansive scale and ventured extremes of musical expression. But for all their superficial differences, the music of Haydn and Mahler displays a triumphant conclusion only at the end of a long and surprising musical journey.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: NJ Joe on February 16, 2013, 10:12:35 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 16, 2013, 06:50:50 AM
Good post, and I have to say, it has also taken me years to listen to Mahler, and my views on the music have changed over time. I struggle with him sometimes, yet his symphonies occupy more of my collection that anything else!

Mahler is the modern composer par excellence. His music mirrors almost all our current hopes and anxieties, and this it does for many, many people. A new generation of scholars tells us it is about love. Can't it be both? What is more quintessentially Romantic than this mingling of love and mortality? Mahler's symphonies are excitingly close to our contemporary life and reality. We critical mindset doesn't easily allow for mixed emotions. Even in music, we seem limited to only letting music be one thing at a time.

Many years ago, many conductors and musicologists thought the Adagietto of the Fifth Symphony was about death, now (in a way) that feels truthful. This state of being seems far removed from our modern mindset- we live in an era of taking sides. Life today is held to be happy or sad, not happy and sad. Our public discourse says Gustav Mahler is the composer of contradictions and paradoxes. He is the composer of ambiguities, contrasts, complexities and cognitive dissonance. A huge part of Mahler's genius is in his ability to create music in which seemingly incompatible ideas are able to coexist.

On the other hand, Mahler's music appears to be a continuation of Joseph Haydn, a gigantic-romantic version of Papa. Mahler's need to sweep up folk song, military musical recollections and country dances to form his symphonies put him surprisingly close to Haydn who, in his Symphony No. 100, was collecting earlier artifacts for similar reasons. Haydn brought "Turkish" military sounds to his London audience to spice music already livened by Austrian country dances and courtly musical references.

In both there is a sense of singing melodic line — of melodies rooted in song, as in Mahler's early symphonies, or in the chamber music of Haydn's. Another is a penchant for wresting substantial music from concise thematic ideas, for "developing" brief motifs in consequential ways. Finally, the works of each composer often entail arresting musical dramas. and anxieties, and this it does for many, many people. Mahler's own compositions — his great symphonies and song cycles — seem, on first consideration, quite unlike those of Haydn. In contrast to the Classical proportions, demeanor and economy of Haydn's work, Mahler created on an expansive scale and ventured extremes of musical expression. But for all their superficial differences, the music of Haydn and Mahler displays a triumphant conclusion only at the end of a long and surprising musical journey.

Thanks Leo K., for this fantastic post.  The bolded lines really nail it for me.  I think that's what was giving me the most trouble.  At times, the music seemed to be almost like a film score in terms of those contrasts.  I was trying to pigeon-hole the music into how I thought a symphony should be constructed.  Once I was able to free myself of those preconceived notions and let the music flow, it was unlocked.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on February 16, 2013, 01:04:27 PM
Quote from: Jersey Joe on February 16, 2013, 10:12:35 AM
Thanks Leo K., for this fantastic post.  The bolded lines really nail it for me.  I think that's what was giving me the most trouble.  At times, the music seemed to be almost like a film score in terms of those contrasts.  I was trying to pigeon-hole the music into how I thought a symphony should be constructed.  Once I was able to free myself of those preconceived notions and let the music flow, it was unlocked.

I got 'spanked' once (in some Dutch music board) when I said that I liked Mahler because he was ablo to compose both deeply felt high class art and kitsch in one and the same piece. Man, people went mad and angry!

But, to me, Mahler's dualism is still the main attractive force in his music. Sometimes I think his personality could be a very intense combination (and confrontation) between German Tiefernst and Jewish irony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mszczuj on February 17, 2013, 01:10:40 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 16, 2013, 06:50:50 AM
We critical mindset doesn't easily allow for mixed emotions. Even in music, we seem limited to only letting music be one thing at a time.

This made me very curious about who is this yours "we"  - as I have listened to some amount of music (probably about 10 000 of records) and really can't remind any minute of experience in which music was for me only one thing at a time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on February 19, 2013, 01:53:57 PM
Hi all!
I was just wondering if there is a right and proper way to start listening to Mahler.
I have symphony 4 & 5 and love both but should i have started at no 1 and finished at 10?
Or doesn't it matter?
Which ones are easiest to get into as a new Mahler fan?
Which ones are the best?
Thanks all for your time! :)

Mark.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on February 19, 2013, 02:05:09 PM
Quote from: sheffmark on February 19, 2013, 01:53:57 PM
Hi all!
I was just wondering if there is a right and proper way to start listening to Mahler.
I have symphony 4 & 5 and love both but should i have started at no 1 and finished at 10?
Or doesn't it matter?
Which ones are easiest to get into as a new Mahler fan?
Which ones are the best?
Thanks all for your time! :)

Mark.

Hi Mark, good to see you around here again! Don't worry! My two first Mahler symphonies were no.4 and 5 also, as I saw them both in the same concert at a BBC Prom, Gergiev conducting the World Orchestra for Peace, a few years ago. I then saw Maazel do both 1 and 6 live the following spring, and following that I was a dedicated Mahlerian convert! I don't think it's too important to listen to them in order. Although, I would say definitely leave no.9 (and 10) till last, as that will give you the best possible appreciation of the extreme power and emotion in the two.
I would say listen to either 1, 2 or 6 next. Favourite recordings: 1 - Jansons, 2 - Tennstedt and 6 - Solti. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 19, 2013, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: sheffmark on February 19, 2013, 01:53:57 PM
Hi all!
I was just wondering if there is a right and proper way to start listening to Mahler.
I have symphony 4 & 5 and love both but should i have started at no 1 and finished at 10?
Or doesn't it matter?
Which ones are easiest to get into as a new Mahler fan?
Which ones are the best?
Thanks all for your time! :)

Mark.

There are more difficult ones, conceptually (3rd, 7th), but even those (3rd, at least) offer moments of glory.

Fourth and Fifth are popular and obvious and good first chocies...

If you already call yourself a fan, you almost can't do wrong from this point on, except perhaps not give it enough time and/or (temporarily) overdosing.

There used to be a survey of Mahler on WETA... the last 8 (of 24) parts of which are also to be found here:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html)

(will be complete/restored, eventually)

Still, the 3 favorite recordings of that cycle (Over all and specially on SACD / always contentious, such 'favorite/best' lists) are still listed for each symphony.

A list of reviews of Mahler Symphonies on ionarts (both CD and in concert) can be found here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/08/mahler-reviews-on-ionarts.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/08/mahler-reviews-on-ionarts.html)

Lots of reading: hardly definitive, but hopefully helpful.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: sheffmark on February 19, 2013, 02:12:57 PM
Great stuff guys!
Thanks for the advice and links and thanks also for the welcome back madaboutmahler! ;)

Mark.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 21, 2013, 09:54:38 AM
Has anybody yet found any info on the "Boulez conducts Mahler" due out for release on March 4th ? I have dropped a line to Decca/Universal customer services to see if they will confirm the contents of this release. Will keep you posted if/when i hear back.

[asin]B004NO5HLG[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on February 21, 2013, 10:22:12 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 21, 2013, 09:54:38 AM
Has anybody yet found any info on the "Boulez conducts Mahler" due out for release on March 4th ? I have dropped a line to Decca/Universal customer services to see if they will confirm the contents of this release. Will keep you posted if/when i hear back.

[asin]B004NO5HLG[/asin]
Nothing more than what is on the UK site, Olivier.
One thing is sure; that thing is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
Obviously everyone wants to see what they reply, if they do!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 21, 2013, 10:40:15 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 21, 2013, 10:22:12 AM
One thing is sure; that thing is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

If it is indeed one CD only, that's a bit too expensive to take a random stab on as well....but if it is the full cycle....hmmmm... 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on February 21, 2013, 10:47:02 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 21, 2013, 10:40:15 AM
If it is indeed one CD only, that's a bit too expensive to take a random stab on as well....but if it is the full cycle....hmmmm...
It can't really be anything else, unless that price is there just to throw us off...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 21, 2013, 06:04:44 PM
Found it!  It's not the cycle, and it's not one single CD either.

It's Das Klagende Lied--and some Lulu too...

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/dg4779891.jpg)
release date per Presto is 4 March
Quote
Pierre Boulez conducts Mahler & Berg
Berg:   
Lulu-Suite (Five Symphonic Pieces) for soprano and orchestra

Anna Prohaska (soprano)

Mahler:   
Das klagende Lied

Dorothea Röschmann (soprano), Anna Larsson (contralto), Johan Botha (tenor)

Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor


Wiener Philharmoniker, Pierre Boulez

Pierre Boulez is an icon of today's classical scene and closely associated with the works of Mahler.

Featuring the acclaimed Vienna Philharmonic and the chorus of the Vienna State Opera – historically connected to Mahler, Berg and Boulez.

These performances were recorded live at the opening concert of the prestigious Salzburg Festival in 2011, conceived as a tribute to Gustav Mahler, and will be released to coincide with the maestro's 88th birthday in March.

Mahler's 2-act Das Klagende Lied is a mythical tale of fratricide, guilt and retribution, based on stories by the Grimm brothers and Ludwig Bechstein.   



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 21, 2013, 10:14:36 PM
Thank you for the info Jeffrey !...but Amazon does have a different entry/ASIN for this Klagende Lied one.... just an error maybe on the other one then ??

[asin]B005F23JV0[/asin]

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on February 22, 2013, 04:12:52 AM
Those seem to be different things, as Olivier said
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=boulez+mahler&rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Aboulez+mahler
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 22, 2013, 04:15:09 AM
Decca, or Universal support actually, has replied...and are now asking me to contact DG...  >:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2013, 04:40:36 AM
Quote from: North Star on February 22, 2013, 04:12:52 AM
Those seem to be different things, as Olivier said
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=boulez+mahler&rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Aboulez+mahler

I say: It's the complete box... and it was delayed for over a year -- possibly -- to include Das Klagende Lied?
based on hunch and zero research.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on February 22, 2013, 08:21:51 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on February 22, 2013, 04:40:36 AM
I say: It's the complete box... and it was delayed for over a year -- possibly -- to include Das Klagende Lied?
based on hunch and zero research.
Seems plausible, and the delay was realized a long time ago, since the item, along with the current release date, has been there for about a year now.

Quote from: North Star on February 26, 2012, 09:52:28 AM
The Mahler seems likely
[asin]B004NO5HLG[/asin]
Quote from: The new erato on February 26, 2012, 10:35:42 AM
Interesting label and release date:

Audio CD (December 31, 2020)
Number of Discs: 1
Format: Import
Label: Roc-A-Fella
ASIN: B004NO5HLG

Those details were at the US page, Amazon UK had 2013 all the time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Octave on February 22, 2013, 08:47:16 AM
Rebooted, indeed!  Expansion into all possible markets.

QuoteInteresting label and release date:
Audio CD (December 31, 2020)
Label: Roc-A-Fella

(http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/J/Jay-Z-507696-2-402.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 11:14:07 AM
Mahler: Songs With Orchestra - Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Ruckert-Lieder, Des Knaben Wunderhorn [Hybrid SACD - DSD, Import]

Susan Graham (mezzo-soprano)
Thomas Hampson (baritone)
Mahler (Composer)
Michael Tilson Thomas (Conductor)
San Francisco Symphony (Orchestra)


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419%2Bnl6dbuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I return to this recording a lot (the iTunes download), and can happily express my joy and satisfaction over the experience.  Especially The Ruckert Lieder.  Bravo to Susan Graham.  Her voice is rich and expressive, with refinement and nuance.  Kudos to Michael Tilson Thomas and the SFSO for letting the music sound so transparent and un-intrusive. For those with reservations for MTT's Mahler, I'm sure the Ruckert Lieder will please very much.

I was also blown away by Thomas Hampson, but his mature voice is a mixed bag for some people.  I happen to like his mature voice on this recording, as well as his other release with MTT, on Das Lied von der Erde. He is in good form here.

I just wish the whole of Das Knaben Wunderhorn was recorded!  As it is, the selections here are very fine, and a joy to listen to over and over again.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 22, 2013, 11:34:08 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2013, 04:15:09 AM
Decca, or Universal support actually, has replied...and are now asking me to contact DG...  >:D

I have gone in circles with them for another reason: be prepared for DGG to say "contact DECCA"    >:(  >:D   !!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2013, 12:45:51 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2013, 04:15:09 AM
Decca, or Universal support actually, has replied...and are now asking me to contact DG...  >:D

Hold on... I know who to ask. Be right back with the answer.


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4ls9SAVgK_I/USenSifFpZI/AAAAAAAAGL4/U65BayABBQo/s1600/MAHLER_02_laurson_600.jpg)

Ionarts-at-Large: Mahler With Mehta and Angel Blue
Seriously, "Angel Blue" is not a stripper?

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/02/ionarts-at-large-mahler-with-mehta-and.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/02/ionarts-at-large-mahler-with-mehta-and.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 22, 2013, 04:44:14 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 15, 2013, 06:18:16 PM
Dudamel is taking another stab at Mahler.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518BZ2HezsL._SY300_.jpg)
Official release date is next week. 


This landed today, and I'm listening to the concluding moments now.

First impression may be a little overenthusiastic, but (barring a massive pratfall in the last five minutes) Dudamel has turned in an outstanding performance here: 10/10 as Hurwitz would put it.  He brings out the kaleidoscopic side of this symphony, without letting it descend into confusion, and the last movement is neither serene acceptance of death nor anguished fight against the inevitable dark,  but instead an attempt to enjoy every moment of life available, even trying to slow down time to make the feeling of life last longer.
Overall time is 86 minutes, so movements 1 and 2 are on CD 1 and movements 3 and 4 are on CD 2.

My overall favorite for M9 remains Zinman, but this has a healthy chance of slipping into the number two spot ahead of Levine/Munich.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 22, 2013, 07:47:02 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 22, 2013, 04:44:14 PM
This landed today, and I'm listening to the concluding moments now.

First impression may be a little overenthusiastic, but (barring a massive pratfall in the last five minutes) Dudamel has turned in an outstanding performance here: 10/10 as Hurwitz would put it.  He brings out the kaleidoscopic side of this symphony, without letting it descend into confusion, and the last movement is neither serene acceptance of death nor anguished fight against the inevitable dark,  but instead an attempt to enjoy every moment of life available, even trying to slow down time to make the feeling of life last longer.
Overall time is 86 minutes, so movements 1 and 2 are on CD 1 and movements 3 and 4 are on CD 2.

My overall favorite for M9 remains Zinman, but this has a healthy chance of slipping into the number two spot ahead of Levine/Munich.

Thanks Jeffrey for your impressions, it appears I'm going to have to get this at some point, even though I've held off buying Mahler 9's for awhile! I've got 86 versions already.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 23, 2013, 07:13:08 AM
Memories of Abbado’s DG Mahler 3.

(http://www.cdbiblio.com/eingang/cdimages/img_mahler/mahler0080.jpg)

I was enjoying the performance. They never hear how beautiful it is. It was slow enough like a Stanislavsky super-task feeling and I was collapsed by neither orchestra nor the superbly natural. It was like was it absolutely gorgeous. Expressive, it was meaningful, it was in a car, tuned to KUAZ and I discovered it as I left a grocery store, I sat away in my seat, holding the wheel. The playback system was up and running and I spent the next hour listening, it truly was phenomenal but it was not constrained. They were playing the opining of the Mahler 3rd. I got instantly hypnotized immediately taken with the playing.

It was elegant and it was like never before. The orchestra was breathing with sound.  All of it was incredibly smart. Mahler’s 3rd was quickly drove home and the six movements flew like a dream and had some second underlying super-meaning.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on February 23, 2013, 02:42:07 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 22, 2013, 04:15:09 AM
Decca, or Universal support actually, has replied...and are now asking me to contact DG...  >:D

Got this response from DG tonight :

QuoteDear Olivier,

Thank you very much for your email and your interest in Deutsche Grammophon.
Unfortunately, I cannot identify the product B004NO5HLG. At the beginning of march we will release only "Das klangende Lied". Please follow the link to view the product page: http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4779891 (http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4779891)

With best wishes,
Deutsche Grammophon Customer Service Team

Bizarrely, the Boulez/Mahler ASIN now shows "Sign up to be notified when this item becomes available" on Amazon UK... it still shows "within 2-4 week" on DE at 97 euros, out of stock at 86  euros on FR, nothing on IT or ES.... make of that what you will  :blank:


Quote from: jlaurson on February 22, 2013, 12:45:51 PM
Hold on... I know who to ask. Be right back with the answer.

any luck on your side, Jens ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 23, 2013, 03:02:35 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on February 23, 2013, 02:42:07 PM
Got this response from DG tonight :

QuoteDear Olivier,

Thank you very much for your email and your interest in Deutsche Grammophon.
Unfortunately, I cannot identify the product B004NO5HLG. At the beginning of march we will release only "Das klangende Lied".

Well, there is no such thing as an Imperfect Participle in German, but maybe the representative invented it!  0:)

"The Was-Ringing Song"  ?

Anyway, it looks like something or other will be released next month!


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 23, 2013, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 15, 2013, 06:18:16 PM

Searching for the image on Amazon,  I noticed that last year's performance of the Eighth in Caracas was released on DVD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cwIVOrNlL._SY300_.jpg)
I'm pretty sure at least one GMGer was impressed by his Eighth. 


This afternoon,  I put this one into the DVD player.

Overall result:  good but not great.   Tempos were a little too quick in Part II for my liking, and the choral entrance for the Chorus Mysticus was nowhere near as soft as it could be, and not anything like the "hush" Mahler used to in his directions for those measures.    I've often been dissatisfied by basses who sing the Pater Profundus passage in a way that sounds like they're chewing the words, and mangling the text in the process.  The bass in this performance went too far in the opposite direction--he was so careful in his enunciation that he seemed to have forgotten to actually sing a couple of phrases.  There was also some noticeable coughing during the opening of Part II, and what seemed like control room chatter seeped into the recording at about the same point.   But those were the only real flaws I noticed on a first viewing, and they were not enough to keep me from wanting a second viewing.

On the plus side,  the recording engineers did a great job of bringing out the chamber-like passages of this symphony--those times when Mahler pared the instruments down to only two or three in company with a soloist or a portion of the chorus, and the camera helped by highlighting them during many of these passages.  I had never realized, or more likely forgotten, there's a short passage for mandolin in the middle of Part II;  but the mandolin player got his moment in the limelight on this recording--and many of these intimate passages can get lost on other recordings.  This might be a good performance to use to study the score.  And when the tuttis came along,  the engineering got them with no problems.

I have one other M8 on DVD--Chailly's Leipzig performance from 2011, and I prefer Dudamel to Chailly here mostly because Chailly's seemed to lack some sort of essential spirit, even if it was note perfect.  Dudamel caught that spirit.

Overall time for the symphony was 82 minutes, with 8 minutes or so of applause and credits, and a 17 minute extra in which the musicians from LA and Caracas demonstrate what a delightful thing it is for musicians to dwell in unity together.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 24, 2013, 11:22:35 AM
Thanks for that review Jeffrey, I've never heard Dudamel, To be honest his pretty-boy image, conducting style and marketing campaign bug me. I think he's too young to be conducting Mahler already.

Like I said already, I'll get his Mahler 9, cause I collect the M9, and I'll try to listen with an open mind.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 24, 2013, 12:12:07 PM


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51j7-4ZisrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Finally, I can hear the manic terror of the Nachtmusik movements and scherzo. I rarely listen to Scherchen these days (the bad sonics keep me away), but this recording is a good Scherchen-like replacement if you want an exciting alternative view of this work.

Jarvi's vision is very consistant here, and I never felt it was too fast...the M7 sounds great with a little power and drive added. 

As much as I love Mahler's orchestration in this work, I like to move along too.  I like the idea that this symphony is a "travelogue" of sorts.  It's a Schuberterian work in many ways.  Also, the early 20th Century modernity of the work reminds me of Joyce's Ulysses, in that each movement is almost a different style than the previous.  Jarvi seems to highlight this Schubertian and Modernist quality in spades.




(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WcG2bmrwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Mahler 7 haunts my listening life. It's the last nut I haven't cracked with Mahler, and perhaps that's a good thing.  Perhaps the whole work is really just social night music like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusic?  The music of the M7 reminds me of the rarefied air of Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde, with each movement projecting a different objective picture with no subjectivity added; purely show and NO tell.  This is how I hear Zinman conduct Mahler's 7th; an intriguing concept and seems to work with the M7. 

The M7 was the first work of Mahler I heard live and for many years the M7 was my favorite symphony.  It's always been a mysterious work and perhaps I've been over anxious to get some answers and this is the cause for my frustration with the work the last few years.  It is a very important and transitional work in Mahler's ouevre and I think for personal reasons I've been too hard on it.  Perhaps I need to relax and just let the music wash over me like I once did.

In comparing Zinman to Bernstein's classic '60s account I have to say Lenny's is hard to beat in terms of drama, color and forward motion.  ON the other hand, Zinman provides a cooler look into this score not heard in Lenny's account.  By "cooler" I mean Zinman plays the M7 straight (but not boring). Because of this the spooky parts and romantic parts suddenly jump out, surprising you and providing contrast with the straightforward tempos that serve to highlight the details of the score and harmonic progression. AND the sonics are among the most impressive for M7 on SACD.  I'm glad to have these two different approaches on hand.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 24, 2013, 12:28:10 PM
Two more Mahler 7's today:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Oct07/Mahler7_Tennstedt_bbcl42242.jpg)
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Jun02/Mahler7_Tahra.jpg)

This release of the Tennstedt M7 on BBC Legends is a good complement to the Kondrashin M7 on Tahra, both captured on tape from the later 1970s or early 1980s.  Tennstedt's is very "outside" the lines, in almost every bar he is loose and messy, and sometimes a little too slow, but all the same I enjoyed this performance for it's utter vulgar humour and sometimes sad tone...Mahler in a "Bizarro" world. 

I think it may be one of the most radical M7's I heard, in the same spirit as Scherchen M7 (in Toronto) at least.  The sonics on this recording is actually fine, not as good as the Kondrashin, but still impressive for a broadcast. I was very impressed by the resonant bells, very well captured during the finale. 

The Kondrashin M7 on Tahra is completely the opposite...refined, heroic, glorious, and romantic.  Since both broadcasts were recorded around the same period, they make a good pair, and both exhibit how different this work can be under different personalities.  If you want a couple of really good sounding historical  M7's...these two are a good choice (the sound on both is really that good).  The Kondrashin M7 is still available on Tahra (can be found at HMV Japan).

I warmly recommend this for those who like historical recordings, or like something off the beaten path.  If you're already happy with Barenboim, Bernstein, and Kobayashi you probably don't need this, unless you really what a mutant in your collection!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 24, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 24, 2013, 12:28:10 PM
Two more Mahler 7's today:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Oct07/Mahler7_Tennstedt_bbcl42242.jpg)
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Jun02/Mahler7_Tahra.jpg)

This release of the Tennstedt M7 on BBC Legends is a good complement to the Kondrashin M7 on Tahra, both captured on tape from the later 1970s or early 1980s.  Tennstedt's is very "outside" the lines, in almost every bar he is loose and messy, and sometimes a little too slow, but all the same I enjoyed this performance for it's utter vulgar humour and sometimes sad tone...Mahler in a "Bizarro" world. 

I think it may be one of the most radical M7's I heard, in the same spirit as Scherchen M7 (in Toronto) at least.  The sonics on this recording is actually fine, not as good as the Kondrashin, but still impressive for a broadcast. I was very impressed by the resonant bells, very well captured during the finale. 

The Kondrashin M7 on Tahra is completely the opposite...refined, heroic, glorious, and romantic.  Since both broadcasts were recorded around the same period, they make a good pair, and both exhibit how different this work can be under different personalities.  If you want a couple of really good sounding historical  M7's...these two are a good choice (the sound on both is really that good).  The Kondrashin M7 is still available on Tahra (can be found at HMV Japan).

I warmly recommend this for those who like historical recordings, or like something off the beaten path.  If you're already happy with Barenboim, Bernstein, and Kobayashi you probably don't need this, unless you really what a mutant in your collection!

The Kondrashin is also available at jpc. I'm not sure I'd call it historic in the usual sense as it was recorded in 1979, but it is a pretty remarkable performance. For those who find the playing of his usual Mahler band a bit rough, this will really give a flavor for what he could do.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 24, 2013, 07:21:30 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 24, 2013, 11:22:35 AM
Thanks for that review Jeffrey, I've never heard Dudamel, To be honest his pretty-boy image, conducting style and marketing campaign bug me. I think he's too young to be conducting Mahler already.

Like I said already, I'll get his Mahler 9, cause I collect the M9, and I'll try to listen with an open mind.

To be perfectly honest, Dudamel did a far better job than I expected in M9.   His M5 is fine, but nothing outstanding;  I heard him conduct M1 in a TV broadcast of his first concert with the LAPhil, and was not impressed (the concert is available on DVD).   I think the strongest point of his M9 was how well he handled the second and third movements. 

In regard to your other posts--first, do you have Zinman's M9, and if so what do you think of it?  second, have you heard Kondrashin's M6 available on Hanssler Classic--a live performance that turned out to be among his last concerts.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 25, 2013, 01:59:38 PM
Thanks Neal and Jeffrey!

Jeffrey, I'm curious now about Dudamel's M9, the middle movements are one of my biggest deal breakers, so I'm interested in his solution.

Yes, I have Zinman's M9 and I think it's great, and somehow underrated! Which amazes me. I post more thoughts in that one soon, I want to check my notes on that one again.

Haven't heard the M6 you mention, sounds interesting!
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 28, 2013, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 24, 2013, 07:21:30 PM
To be perfectly honest, Dudamel did a far better job than I expected in M9.   His M5 is fine, but nothing outstanding;  I heard him conduct M1 in a TV broadcast of his first concert with the LAPhil, and was not impressed (the concert is available on DVD).   I think the strongest point of his M9 was how well he handled the second and third movements. 

In regard to your other posts--first, do you have Zinman's M9, and if so what do you think of it?  second, have you heard Kondrashin's M6 available on Hanssler Classic--a live performance that turned out to be among his last concerts.

Zinman’s account is really good for such an expansive performance. The first movement is over 30 minutes, and the finale goes past 28. The two inner movements are basically normal, no surprises in a good way. I really like Zinman's second movement. Overall, Zinman's 9th  reminds me a lot of the Levine/Philly one, but with much better sound.

In terms of hearing all that is in the score the third climax in the first movement is impressive.  The rusticity of the minuet is fine and detailed, especially in dynamics. The sonics are perhaps the best of the cycle. Matching and perhaps exceeding his M3, M6 and M8 recordings. I feel like I'm in the hall, not too close to the orchestra. For me, all of Zinman's Mahler cycle sounds like this, it's one of the features I really like about this cycle.

The tone of Zinman's interpretation doesn't sound gentle to me (as claimed by others online, but this is subjective. The beginning of the first movement is anything but unsettled. I hear confidence from the orchestra. I hear a strong sense of self.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 28, 2013, 05:57:26 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on February 28, 2013, 10:30:00 AM
Zinman's account is really good for such an expansive performance. The first movement is over 30 minutes, and the finale goes past 28. The two inner movements are basically normal, no surprises in a good way. I really like Zinman's second movement. Overall, Zinman's 9th  reminds me a lot of the Levine/Philly one, but with much better sound.

In terms of hearing all that is in the score the third climax in the first movement is impressive.  The rusticity of the minuet is fine and detailed, especially in dynamics. The sonics are perhaps the best of the cycle. Matching and perhaps exceeding his M3, M6 and M8 recordings. I feel like I'm in the hall, not too close to the orchestra. For me, all of Zinman's Mahler cycle sounds like this, it's one of the features I really like about this cycle.

The tone of Zinman's interpretation doesn't sound gentle to me (as claimed by others online, but this is subjective. The beginning of the first movement is anything but unsettled. I hear confidence from the orchestra. I hear a strong sense of self.

Thanks for that.  I agree about the sonics in Zinman's cycle, btw.

For me the great virtue of Zinman's Ninth is the final movement--and it's this movement that I think might be the origin of the "gentle" descriptor:  it's an extremely serene intrepretion, in which the dominant element is not on some struggle against death or fading out into blackness,  but a calm ascent ("serene" is the most apt word I can use for it) into the celestial realms.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on March 01, 2013, 09:15:53 AM
I wanted to listen to impressive Mahler music, yet without much ado.
I picked Neeme Järvi conducting Symphony 6.

(http://i50.tinypic.com/ofdjys.jpg)

Järvi delivers fine, I like his approach better than I remembered, and the sound quality is just phantastic IMO. Open, clear, detailed, without getting fragmented.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 04:56:07 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 01, 2013, 09:15:53 AM
I wanted to listen to impressive Mahler music, yet without much ado.
I picked Neeme Järvi conducting Symphony 6.

(http://i50.tinypic.com/ofdjys.jpg)

Järvi delivers fine, I like his approach better than I remembered, and the sound quality is just phantastic IMO. Open, clear, detailed, without getting fragmented.

Sounds like a winner Marc, thanks for the heads up  8)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on March 02, 2013, 09:24:07 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 01, 2013, 04:56:07 PM
Sounds like a winner Marc, thanks for the heads up  8)

You'll have to accept crazy speed in the 1st movement. In fact, the entire symphony is played fast. But the Royal Scottish National Orchestra can handle it.

Järvi sr. isn't my favourite conductor, because many times he's too superficial to me. I found f.i. his Tchaikovsky 6 very disappointing, and also Grieg's Peer Gynt, praised by many, didn't convince me. But if the listener loves to hear a beautiful orchestral sound, he/she is not in an emotional Mahler-Bernstein mood, and the orchestra is able to follow his speedy conductor, then this Mahler 6 is certainly recommendable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on March 02, 2013, 04:17:47 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 24, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
The Kondrashin is also available at jpc. I'm not sure I'd call it historic in the usual sense as it was recorded in 1979, but it is a pretty remarkable performance. For those who find the playing of his usual Mahler band a bit rough, this will really give a flavor for what he could do.
Always liked Kondrashin's M7s; I think the piece lends itself well to Kondrashin's particularly driven approach just because it's so hard to pin down as a work. While something like the 6th is highly compelling in Kondrashin's hands, it can seem a bit one-dimensional--no chance of that in the 7th.

There's a sense in which I think perhaps the best modern analogue to Scherchen's 7ths might be Barenboim's with the Staatskapelle Berlin. Much better played than any of Scherchen's, naturally, but I think Barenboim--like Scherchen--sees the work as having a very significant dark side throughout, including the finale. The way Barenboim pulls sudden emotional handbrake turns, particularly in the first movement, always reminded me of Scherchen as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 05, 2013, 10:31:32 AM
NDR Radiophilharmonie
Eiji Oue (conductor)
Exton

A revist of Oue's Mahler 9. I thought, what the heck I'd gather my notes and lay 'em out here.

(http://www.sa-cd.net/covers/6138.jpg)

In the first movement, my ONLY quibble is that the timpani do not roll a little longer in the first climax like I heard in Zinman's M9 broadcast from Aspen Colorado in 1998 (the best I heard this passage played). There are three basic approaches to the first movement of the M9. Oue takes the third approach, which is "taking all the faster passages slower" rather than contrasting between slow and fast (1st approach) or taking the slower music faster than usual (2nd approach).

As in Sinopli's Dresden M9, the 3rd approach creates a large, single arch, and generally runs 30 minutes or more...so Oue's approach does remind one of Sinopoli in Dresden here in this recording. The difference between Oue and Sinopoli is that in Sinopoli the third climax is more an anti-climax with softer timpani, and Oue's timpani sound like thunder...and the third climax in the first movement is an explosion in sound. The string textures vivid, with attention paid to nuances and atmospheric in tone.

In the Adagio, those sections where the horn sings with the strings not as sweet as I've heard elsewhere, as in Horenstein's LSO account. As much as Macal (with the CPO on Exton) is a surgeon in the first movement, or deconstructionist...Oue is the full-on, heart on sleeve romantic, almost like Bernstein in his late style, except the strings are rawer than the BPO or Vienna, and hence, gives Oue's romanticism a harder edge.

Like MTT, Oue milks many details in the transitions, which I tend to savor, but to one more inclined to Alan Gilbert's objective approach, may not like at all. Each climax is earth shaking and very vividly captured in the sound quality (the tamtam as exploding as Olson's latest M9 from Colorado, but perhaps sounding even larger)...the bass drum and timpani jump from the texture...the low brass show a natural biting texture, especially in the third climax. I am thankful Oue does not rush the climaxes, therefore allowing all the details to be heard, with high woodwinds, high strings, and horns heard clearly...lifting us up into the wild rollercoaster of sound only to be drowned into an abyss after each climatic moment...very atmospheric in recorded sound...as good if not better than the sound of Macal's M9 on Exton. The raw-like string textures are vivid in the quieter moments, and Oue's slower tempi keep the tension ala Walter's late style...and the music sounds more humorous than usual too. It takes getting used to at first, but if anything it shows another viewpoint for this music. This second movement made me think of Klemperer...who at his best could make a slower tempo really effective and his Landlers movement is almost as long as Oue's. Is Oue ultimately successful here? Well, I never got the feeling of being tired, or impatient, so perhaps he makes it work. Time will tell.

The Rondo has power, and also reminds me of Klemperer, as the progression is not eloquent but rather lumbering in pace. It is also not as sarcastic or "fast dashing to the finish line" as a Bernstein, Macal or Barenboim, but effective in the brass details and overall enthusiasm heard in the execution, and the middle section sounds very raw, but romantic and cosmopolitan too...a quality I really love, since this is how I hear Bernstein's way with this movement too in his later accounts. Like Bertini, Oue takes the middle section a little slower than most. The final moments to the Rondo are truly breathtaking and heroic, and sound larger than life, thanks to the awesome timpani.

Yes, this performance is on the long side with many moments of frank overindulgence, but the tempo relationships and fluctuations still flow naturally and the orchestral detail is really captured like I've never heard before. This is the SACD (DSD stereo) layer I'm reviewing here.

The low brass and strings, percussion, and high strings are captured equally and the woodwood and horns are often heard arising from the texture of the orchestra with great beauty...produced and engineered by the same guy who does all the Exton Mahler recordings (his name slips my mind at the moment). I personally feel Oue is as intense as Bernstein's RCO account on DG...at least in the first and fourth movements, and almost as powerful as Lenny in the Rondo (on DG). If only Oue had the RCO here, or the BPO...but the NDR is really fantastic here...showing powerful forces in the climaxes, and atmospheric sound during the quiet moments. I have no large complaints with the playing.

NOTE: This disk doesn't have a 5.1 SACD layer.

Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 05, 2013, 12:14:04 PM
Quote from: edward on March 02, 2013, 04:17:47 PM
Always liked Kondrashin's M7s; I think the piece lends itself well to Kondrashin's particularly driven approach just because it's so hard to pin down as a work. While something like the 6th is highly compelling in Kondrashin's hands, it can seem a bit one-dimensional--no chance of that in the 7th.

There's a sense in which I think perhaps the best modern analogue to Scherchen's 7ths might be Barenboim's with the Staatskapelle Berlin. Much better played than any of Scherchen's, naturally, but I think Barenboim--like Scherchen--sees the work as having a very significant dark side throughout, including the finale. The way Barenboim pulls sudden emotional handbrake turns, particularly in the first movement, always reminded me of Scherchen as well.

Well said and I agree, I really like the comparison with Scherchen and Barenboim, good call.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 12, 2013, 12:15:34 PM
 
Mahler: Symphony No.3
Petra Lang (Contralto)
American Boy Choir
Alan Gilbert (Conductor)
New York Philharmonic (Orchestra)


(Broadcast featured on iTunes and HD Tracks)

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hdtrack_img/HD844185042383_185.jpg)

I'm amazed by this performance.  Wow.  The nuance and orchestral detail are special, and fun to hear.  I don't think I've ever heard the 1st movement paced so well, with action and adventure at every turn.  For me this is up there with the Abbado Berlin account on DG and Zinman's recent account on RCA.

The Gilbert Mahler 3 is among the best structured I've experienced, meaning, as each movement is heard there appears to be a flow and progress without the feeling of getting stuck or bored.  The whole symphony glows with beautiful sound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 13, 2013, 07:04:17 PM
Have you heard Gilbert's recording of M9 with his old orchestra (Royal Stockholm) on BIS.  Not necessarily an outstanding or must hear performance, but to my ears a solid and effective recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 15, 2013, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 13, 2013, 07:04:17 PM
Have you heard Gilbert's recording of M9 with his old orchestra (Royal Stockholm) on BIS.  Not necessarily an outstanding or must hear performance, but to my ears a solid and effective recording.

Hello Jeffrey,

Yes, I have that one and agree with you, the performance is not essential but it is a nice M9 for fans of the one-disk M9. I wish he would've had the NYPO on the BIS recording. Perhaps one day he'll do another M9 with the NYPO.



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 16, 2013, 06:55:06 AM
I can sense a bit of a Mahler listening time coming soon and I am ripe for a new cycle I think.

The main contenders missing in my collection are :

Kubelik / BRSO (i have his M1 already plus 4 or 5 of his Audite recordings)
Inbal / Frankfurt (not heard any)
Svetlanov (not heard any)
Haitink / Concertgebouw (only have his RCO M3/Dqs Lied and his M2/M6 with the CSO)
Kondrashin (not heard any)

Any particular picking order for those please ? I am not against off-the-path approaches btw.

Thanks

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 16, 2013, 08:37:40 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 16, 2013, 06:55:06 AM
I can sense a bit of a Mahler listening time coming soon and I am ripe for a new cycle I think.

The main contenders missing in my collection are :

Kubelik / BRSO (i have his M1 already plus 4 or 5 of his Audite recordings)
Inbal / Frankfurt (not heard any)
Svetlanov (not heard any)
Haitink / Concertgebouw (only have his RCO M3/Dqs Lied and his M2/M6 with the CSO)
Kondrashin (not heard any)

Any particular picking order for those please ? I am not against off-the-path approaches btw.

Thanks

In order of urgency (not necessarily quality):

Kubelik - (even if this means doubling up on the often but not always similar audite recordings... not the least because the 5th (only) on DG is superb!)
Inbal - (...then again, you might take Inbal first, just as well... a wildly underrated cycle with one of the finest 4th, but also 7th, 5th, LvdE...)

Kondrashin -  (this one, simply because it's the hmm... most Russian among radically different cycles, with one of the most gruesome-awesome 7th ever.
(That said, it's rather hit and miss, now that Sarge's point below reminds me. And the singing... not always world class. Oh, and it's incomplete. True that.)






Haitink - (because you never knew just how beautiful boring can be! His outlier Berlin recordings are more interesting, and his most recent Mahler greatly improved... (CSO, RCO, BRSO))





Svetlanov (all the difference of Kondrashin, almost none of its quality very different uhmm quality. There's something to it, and I can't quite say what it is... and just when I seem to get it I realize that, no... not actually, not really. Yes, this beats Tabakov. But that's not the measure we ought to take to any Mahler cycle.)

P.S. It's like Bernstein's bastard Soviet cousin... but just not as attractive as that actually sounds.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 16, 2013, 11:58:42 PM
Thank you Jens !

And errr... Sarge ?....Not sure where Sarge's post has gone  ??? there was one, wasn't there ?? Did he change his mind on Svetlanov over dinner ?  ;D

I seem to remember Scots John praising the Inbal a few times as well in the old WAYLT...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 17, 2013, 02:51:39 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 16, 2013, 11:58:42 PM
Thank you Jens !

And errr... Sarge ?....Not sure where Sarge's post has gone  ??? there was one, wasn't there ?? Did he change his mind on Svetlanov over dinner ?  ;D


Huh. Yes. He preferred Svetlanov over Kondrashin... not ready to equate the latter with quality and much less so the former with lack thereof, agreeing, however, that both were very different... from all the others and from each other.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on March 17, 2013, 05:37:31 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 16, 2013, 06:55:06 AM
I can sense a bit of a Mahler listening time coming soon and I am ripe for a new cycle I think.

The main contenders missing in my collection are :

Kubelik / BRSO (i have his M1 already plus 4 or 5 of his Audite recordings)
Inbal / Frankfurt (not heard any)
Svetlanov (not heard any)
Haitink / Concertgebouw (only have his RCO M3/Dqs Lied and his M2/M6 with the CSO)
Kondrashin (not heard any)

Any particular picking order for those please ? I am not against off-the-path approaches btw.

Thanks

I.c. Haitink: of his Concertgebouw period, I would recommend the CD or DVD box with the Christmas Matinee Recordings (live recordings for Dutch/Eurovision broadcast in the 70/80s). They have been (re-)released by Universal, but unfortunately they are difficult to get. Nos 6 & 8 are missing, but you already have his CSO 6, and his early 'studio' 8 isn't particularily interesting. His Farewell to Amsterdam 8 in 1988 was much better, but hasn't been released yet, AFAIK.

However, there is a YouTube link of that performance:

http://www.youtube.com/v/x6IqKmHMErc
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 17, 2013, 03:35:08 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 16, 2013, 06:55:06 AM
I can sense a bit of a Mahler listening time coming soon and I am ripe for a new cycle I think.

The main contenders missing in my collection are :

Kubelik / BRSO (i have his M1 already plus 4 or 5 of his Audite recordings)
Inbal / Frankfurt (not heard any)
Svetlanov (not heard any)
Haitink / Concertgebouw (only have his RCO M3/Dqs Lied and his M2/M6 with the CSO)
Kondrashin (not heard any)

Any particular picking order for those please ? I am not against off-the-path approaches btw.

Thanks

Haitink! Inbal! :)
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 17, 2013, 03:40:50 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 16, 2013, 08:37:40 AM

Haitink - (because you never knew just how beautiful boring can be!)


Perfect summary of Haitink's style. I'm particularly impressed with his live Mahler broadcasts.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 18, 2013, 01:41:56 AM
Hi Marc, Hi Leo,

Thank you both for your feedback !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 18, 2013, 06:58:51 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 16, 2013, 11:58:42 PM
Thank you Jens !

And errr... Sarge ?....Not sure where Sarge's post has gone  ??? there was one, wasn't there ?? Did he change his mind on Svetlanov over dinner ?  ;D


Sorry I disappeared....literally disappeared  ;D  After posting I realized I wouldn't be making it back soon (as promised) so I decided to remove the message, hoping you hadn't seen it.

Here's how I would acquire them: first Svetlanov, then Inbal. I'm just not enthusiastic about the boxed cycles of Kubelik, Haitink or Kondrashin (although there are marvelous performances from each of course; e.g., Kubelik's Fifth, Haitink's Third and Ninth; Kondrashin's Seventh). Haitink is, I think, better collected individually with recordings from various periods and orchestras (I prefer his Berlin Fifth to the earlier Concertgebouw, for example). The live Audite are often superior to Kubelik's studio efforts, and I plain don't enjoy much of Kondrashin's Mahler (and it isn't complete anyway, missing 2 and 8 ).

Svetlanov is broadly paced and mannered (reminding me of Maazel's Mahler), with some odd orchestral balances highlighting often new, sometimes odd detail. Percussion is prominent and explosive. In other words, my kind of recording  :D  To give you an idea, here's the first movement of the Second:

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/KdQGJcw1/01-001_Part_1__Allegro_maestro.html


Unfortunately the solo voices (in 2 and 4) are too closely, and hugely, miked, really distorting their relationship with the orchestra and making listening difficult (to get the voices under control the volume needs to be turned down to the orchestra's detriment). But that's the only downside....for me. It's certainly not a first, second...or even sixth choice for a complete Mahler cycle but, I think, a very interesting one for someone with an already extensive collection like yourself.

Quote from: jlaurson on March 16, 2013, 08:37:40 AM
Inbal - (...then again, you might take Inbal first, just as well... a wildly underrated cycle with one of the finest 4th, but also 7th, 5th, LvdE...)

Agree completely with Jens.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 18, 2013, 07:41:40 AM
Welcome back Sarge  ;D and thanks for your comments and the Svetlanov sample. Will check it out this evening.

Totenfeier as a sample as well... you crafty bugger !!!  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 18, 2013, 07:48:11 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 18, 2013, 07:41:40 AM
Welcome back Sarge  ;D and thanks for your comments and the Svetlanov sample. Will check it out this evening.

Totenfeier as a sample as well... you crafty bugger !!!  ;D

Yes, that was quite deliberate. I picked that particular movement just to sway you  >:D


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2013, 07:49:16 AM
Tactically done, Sarge ; )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 18, 2013, 07:51:41 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 18, 2013, 07:49:16 AM
Tactically done, Sarge ; )

Military training pays off  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 18, 2013, 11:41:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 18, 2013, 06:58:51 AM
Svetlanov is broadly paced and mannered (reminding me of Maazel's Mahler), with some odd orchestral balances highlighting often new, sometimes odd detail. Percussion is prominent and explosive. In other words, my kind of recording  :D  To give you an idea, here's the first movement of the Second:

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/KdQGJcw1/01-001_Part_1__Allegro_maestro.html


23 minutes later, I am not sure if I am thrilled by it... or petrified... or both... it is a bit all over the shop in the first few minutes... but quite an intense version overall...and at least, he takes the final notes in the right pace for my liking  0:) .... right, I am intrigued now...  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2013, 04:21:36 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 18, 2013, 11:41:21 AM
23 minutes later, I am not sure if I am thrilled by it... or petrified... or both... it is a bit all over the shop in the first few minutes... but quite an intense version overall...and at least, he takes the final notes in the right pace for my liking  0:) .... right, I am intrigued now...  ;D

His style, his interpretive choices (a ten minute Rondo-Burleske!) are quite individual...even odd at times, and his orchestra unpolished, raw (still possessing that unique Soviet "color"). That's why I wanted you to hear a slice: to have some idea what you'd be getting into if you chose Svetlanov. Any of the other four (even Kondrashin) are safer bets.

Me, I just bought the Zinman cycle. Jeffrey's incessant plugging for Zinman's Ninth finally got to me  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: John Copeland on March 19, 2013, 04:34:31 AM
But what of the Inbal 80's Denon cyle?  Masterful in that Inbal reads these symphonies with almost narrative like delivery...you will have read all of Mahler by the time you've listened to the Inbal set.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2013, 04:36:42 AM
Svetlanov in Mahler, eh? (and . . . is this me considering this? . . .)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2013, 04:43:36 AM
Quote from: Scots John on March 19, 2013, 04:34:31 AM
But what of the Inbal 80's Denon cyle?  Masterful in that Inbal reads these symphonies with almost narrative like delivery...you will have read all of Mahler by the time you've listened to the Inbal set.

Yes, he shouldn't forget Inbal....and it is remarkably inexpensive from Amazon Kraut (http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Sinfonien-1-10-Inbal-Eliahu/dp/B00008Q03A/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363696806&sr=1-1): €29


Sarge

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2013, 04:54:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 19, 2013, 04:36:42 AM
Svetlanov in Mahler, eh? (and . . . is this me considering this? . . .)

Hey, Karl. If you are interested in great Mahler interpretation and performance, in good sound, there are many other cycles you should consider first. On the other hand, if you have a particular interest in Russian orchestras and conductors, it's a must have, I think (as is the Kondrashin box).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2013, 05:01:20 AM
Thanks for the word, Sarge!  Anyway, I've yet to make my way completely through the "all-star" DG box . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 19, 2013, 05:30:47 AM
Quote from: Scots John on March 19, 2013, 04:34:31 AM
But what of the Inbal 80's Denon cyle?  Masterful in that Inbal reads these symphonies with almost narrative like delivery...you will have read all of Mahler by the time you've listened to the Inbal set.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2013, 04:43:36 AM
Yes, he shouldn't forget Inbal....and it is remarkably inexpensive from Amazon Kraut (http://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Sinfonien-1-10-Inbal-Eliahu/dp/B00008Q03A/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363696806&sr=1-1): €29

Sarge

I have seen the Inbal steadily at 29 euros on JPC as well (I should have clinched it months ago when it was at 19 !!) . There are a couple other symphony sets I am eyeing too from there (Pettersson CPO at 49 euros, Toch, Peterson-Berger as well...). I think there will be a bundle from JPC soon...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 19, 2013, 06:07:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2013, 04:21:36 AM


Me, I just bought the Zinman cycle. Jeffrey's incessant plugging for Zinman's Ninth finally got to me  :D

Sarge

:P

It's not just his Ninth that I like:  I think he does a very good job with 3 and 4. 
But I'll be most interested  in what you think of his Tenth, because it struck me as a failure. 
The rest-1,2, 5-8--hit me as somewhere between workmanlike excellence and first class, but  not as outstanding.

And now you've got me intrigues with Svetlanov.....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 19, 2013, 06:45:52 AM
hmmm... Might have to re-assess Zinman too... I bought his M1 when he started the cycle and found it bland at the time. I never really looked into his cycle after that...

MTT is another one (not been convinced by his M2 and didn't take it further either).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2013, 07:05:47 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 19, 2013, 06:45:52 AM
MTT is another one (not been convinced by his M2 and didn't take it further either).

Yeah, same here. MTT's M2 turned me off. The continuous speeding up, slowing down within phrases gave me motion sickness :D  I ignored MTT for many years. However, the recent M1 blind comparison revealed an M1 I really liked...enough to buy. His M4 too turned out to be a pleasant surprise.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Octave on March 23, 2013, 11:26:49 PM
I know I would like to have Haitink's LIED VON DER ERDE, and it seems I am spoilt for choice.  Aside from a Philips/Eloquence single disc from 2000, there are two doubles.  Am I better served by one of these?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C3VT928HL._SX300_.jpg)(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/MuzeAudioArt/Large/33/1175733.jpg)

The only question for me was which had the more robust filler, the other orchestral songs or the #9.  I've run across some compliments of everything present here, but only glowing/shortlisting praise for the LIED VON DER ERDE.  John Grabowski at Amazon said this Ninth was one of the greats, but I don't always concur with his judgments; plus I actively dislike his electronic personality.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on March 24, 2013, 12:36:01 AM
Quote from: Octave on March 23, 2013, 11:26:49 PM
I know I would like to have Haitink's LIED VON DER ERDE, and it seems I am spoilt for choice.  Aside from a Philips/Eloquence single disc from 2000, there are two doubles.  Am I better served by one of these?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C3VT928HL._SX300_.jpg)(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/MuzeAudioArt/Large/33/1175733.jpg)

The only question for me was which had the more robust filler, the other orchestral songs or the #9.  I've run across some compliments of everything present here, but only glowing/shortlisting praise for the LIED VON DER ERDE.  John Grabowski at Amazon said this Ninth was one of the greats, but I don't always concur with his judgments; plus I actively dislike his electronic personality.

I like Hermann Prey very much in the 'Fahrende Geselle' and the Kindertotenlieder. But yes, I agree with mister Grabowski that the Ninth is indeed a great one. It's genuine Haitink: a performance without antics, frills and mannerism, and it's beautifully played by the Concertgebouw Orchestra.
In my younger years, I decided to buy both issues, because of my sentiments towards the Prey LPs (which I already knew) and also because of my memories of Haitink's last Christmas Matinee with the Ninth in 1987 (which is another performance btw).
In later years, I bought the complete Haitink/Mahler symphonies box, which is a solid choice IMHO, with the exception of a shallow 8th. Mind you, this box does not include the song cycles nor Das Lied von der Erde. So, if you're already thinking of extending your Haitink's Mahler collection with the symphonies boxset in the (near) future, the combi Das Lied/Lieder might be the best choice.

http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Gustav-Mahler/dp/B00000E58A/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Octave on March 24, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
Thanks for that kind advice, Marc; your latter suggestion was what I was initially thinking of doing (symphs box + orchestral lieder 2cd), but for whatever reason I'd ruled out the box set...I don't know why, because I think I like Haitink's approach in almost everything I've heard.  (I feel like I enjoy his RCO Brahms more than most people I hear talk about it.)
But I imagine that the Decca juggernaut will probably do some subsequent box with all of this in it, and my whole question will be moot.

Unrelated: I am very happy to have another shot at the Abbado cycle as part of that upcoming Abbado retrospective box from DG.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 24, 2013, 03:13:46 AM
Quote from: Octave on March 23, 2013, 11:26:49 PM
I know I would like to have Haitink's LIED VON DER ERDE, and it seems I am spoilt for choice.  Aside from a Philips/Eloquence single disc from 2000, there are two doubles.  Am I better served by one of these?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C3VT928HL._SX300_.jpg)(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/MuzeAudioArt/Large/33/1175733.jpg)

Tough one, indeed. Marc's answer hits it on the nail, though: If you are likely to get the 9th in another format, go with the all-singing disc. If not, the 9th is one of Haitink's finest achievements in Mahler from that time (several other splendid accounts have followed, since, including a 9th with the BRSO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN//B0081QU2Q2/goodmusicguide-20)) and the more gratifying 'filler'. Then again, if you have mmpteenth 9ths in your collection already...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on March 30, 2013, 02:14:27 AM
About Haitink's Mahler 9 et al, here's a short thread of the old forum (still available for just 2 days):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13388.0.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Octave on March 30, 2013, 03:45:14 AM
Thanks for that pointer, Marc.

The following is coffee-fueled chatter; everyone is encouraged to skip it.

I already asked a hasty question in the Shost thread re: his #4 (opinions on the options were easier to find than I'd thought), but I will risk doing this again and mention aloud that I have whittled my next full cycle down to:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EJiNBFkcL._SY300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UQ0wNr8gL._SY300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2BvgWrOl-L._SY300_.jpg)
Chailly.........Sinopoli..........Abravanel
(with Abbado in the works for late this year)

My points of reference being the EMI "Complete" sampler; Bernstein/NY/Sony; Walter (recent Sony bargain box, incomplete); Levine (ditto); Kubelik (DG); Bertini; and assorted one-off encounters (believe it or not, I do sometimes buy recordings in batches of less than ~10 discs).
The Chailly seems like a sure shot pending distortions in my own taste; but the less-frequently-recommended (?) and, in my experience, occasionally derided Sinopoli sounds fascinating.  Sarge, for example, recommended that and also the Maazel, with caveats.  I think I am at least as interested in a "personal" [~"eccentric"] Mahler as I would be in a more conservative or careful reading, to wit the next sentence.  The Abravanel sounds interesting for roughly opposite reasons, though I admit that my main source of recommendation for that remains a prolific Amazon review who I think I do not "trust" entirely, if that is the right word in affairs of the heart i.e. music.   

Rather hard for me to "sample" works of music like these and know if I'll be happy living with them; I have tried, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 30, 2013, 04:31:13 AM
Quote from: Octave on March 30, 2013, 03:45:14 AM....but the less-frequently-recommended (?) and, in my experience, occasionally derided Sinopoli sounds fascinating.  Sarge, for example, recommended that and also the Maazel, with caveats.

I also recommended Chailly. That is my desert island set. Except for an under-powered Second, I love every performance in that box. Between Sinopoli and Chailly, which to purchase first? Flip a coin  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 30, 2013, 09:21:33 AM
Chailly and Sinopoli are both good; the only thing I can suggest is to get them both.
(Helpful, am I not?)
One thing to warn you about:  the Sinopoli box, as you pictured it, is a rather verstupte, vertummelte, verklumpte  ding, as they say in Yiddish: the symphonies are for the most part not in chronological order and many of them are split across 2 CDs.  Some of them of course there was no choice because of performing times, but even some of the symphonies that run under 80 minutes are split up over two CDs.  So you may find yourself a little zedrayte in dealing with it (but it's worth the trouble).

On the other hand, the Chailly box does not include the rather interesting couplings which filled out the original individual issues, which Chailly picked to help illuminate the main event (many if not most of these fillers not being Mahler's work);  however at least some of those individual issues are now OOP, so the box is the only reasonably priced option.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Octave on March 30, 2013, 09:29:27 AM
Thanks Jeffrey and Sarge!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 30, 2013, 10:34:58 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 30, 2013, 09:21:33 AM
Chailly and Sinopoli are both good; the only thing I can suggest is to get them both.
(Helpful, am I not?)

Given that you already have Bertini and Kubelik - go with Sinopoli. Chailly is superb, too, but more in the interpretative 'mainstream' where as Sinopoli makes for a nicely individualistic change. (While being totally unlike Bernstein.) Chailly is the better -- perhaps the best -- sounding cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on April 01, 2013, 12:03:06 PM
Chailly's M2 is quite stunning. One of the best out there. It's very underated for some reason.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 03:28:33 AM
Hello, Gustav Goons, Mahler-Heads,

I'm interested in some Das Lied Von Der Erde and Kindertotnlieder recs. I just indulged in a few more 4th and 8th recordings (exploring Mahler's vocal pieces) and want to continue exploring. I know these pieces quite well but never looked further than just what I've heard on radio or recently online.
Thanks in advance!!!  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 07, 2013, 03:48:43 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 03:28:33 AM
Hello, Gustav Goons, Mahler-Heads,

I'm interested in some Das Lied Von Der Erde and Kindertotnlieder recs. I just indulged in a few more 4th and 8th recordings (exploring Mahler's vocal pieces) and want to continue exploring. I know these pieces quite well but never looked further than just what I've heard on radio or recently online.
Thanks in advance!!!  8)

[asin] B000023Z0N[/asin]

[asin] B0000041EH[/asin]


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Octave on April 07, 2013, 03:58:05 AM
I just got that Haitink, and it is doooooope.  I'm also crazy about the LIED by Kubelik on Audite, also with Janet Baker (1970), which I think has already gotten much love around here.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71oOPZGBx5L._SL1400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on April 07, 2013, 03:58:17 AM
Das Lied can take contrasting approaches. There is the stoic Klemperer and the more overt, almost sensuous, Levine. In between is a live Kubelik.

I value all of these, none above the other. The singers are all excellent. Levine's Norman can on some recordings be too plush, but here the music sounds as though written for her voice. Wunderlich is a touchstone of voice production for Klemperer, but when comparing him to the less beautiful Kmentt for Kubelik, the latter works harder at the words, and they tell. I think that the partnership of Kubelik and Janet Baker is as good as it gets and the architecture of the final movement is like a vast spanned bridge journying into darkness.

There are many other excellent recordings and you may prefer a baritone in the non-tenor spongs, if so I suggest Fischer-Dieskau with Kletzki.

Kindertotenlieder again yields to two of the foregoing singers, Baker with Barbirolli or DFD. Also Fassbaender mines these songs movingly. My own preferences steer me away from Hampson who never to me sounds inside the music. To my ears his considerable technique is all laid on and it is like watching Lawrence Olivier wheeling in his assemblages of ticks and eye flutterings to construct a character. I cannot find authenticity in Hampson's work, but others would recommend him.

Mike

Ps, I see that while typing others were having some similar thoughts.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 07:20:36 AM
Great food for thought to begin with, thanks Sarge, Octave and kinght66.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 07, 2013, 06:21:01 PM
Quote from: knight66 on April 07, 2013, 03:58:17 AM
Das Lied can take contrasting approaches. There is the stoic Klemperer and the more overt, almost sensuous, Levine. In between is a live Kubelik.

I value all of these, none above the other. The singers are all excellent. Levine's Norman can on some recordings be too plush, but here the music sounds as though written for her voice. Wunderlich is a touchstone of voice production for Klemperer, but when comparing him to the less beautiful Kmentt for Kubelik, the latter works harder at the words, and they tell. I think that the partnership of Kubelik and Janet Baker is as good as it gets and the architecture of the final movement is like a vast spanned bridge journying into darkness.

There are many other excellent recordings and you may prefer a baritone in the non-tenor spongs, if so I suggest Fischer-Dieskau with Kletzki.

Kindertotenlieder again yields to two of the foregoing singers, Baker with Barbirolli or DFD. Also Fassbaender mines these songs movingly. My own preferences steer me away from Hampson who never to me sounds inside the music. To my ears his considerable technique is all laid on and it is like watching Lawrence Olivier wheeling in his assemblages of ticks and eye flutterings to construct a character. I cannot find authenticity in Hampson's work, but others would recommend him.

Mike

Ps, I see that while typing others were having some similar thoughts.

Slightly late to the game, but--
if you want Wunderlich and Fischer Dieskau,  there's a live recording of the two performing DLvdE under Josef Krips with the Vienna Symphony.  The sound is sometimes not the best, and the orchestral playing is also sometimes not the best,  but I think the two singers give a better performance in that recording than either does on their more celebrated ones (Fritz with Klemperer, Dietrich with Bernstein or Kletzki).

And although it's not quite germane to your actual question,  I think Hampson's recording of Ruckert Lieder with Bernstein is the best available.  (I thinik his Kindertotenlieder is good but doesn't outclass others, and the recording Hampson did with MTT a couple of years ago is not quite as good as the Bernstein.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Octave on April 07, 2013, 06:47:43 PM
Quote from: knight66 on April 07, 2013, 03:58:17 AM
I think that the partnership of Kubelik and Janet Baker is as good as it gets and the architecture of the final movement is like a vast spanned bridge journying into darkness.
[...]
Kindertotenlieder again yields to two of the foregoing singers, Baker with Barbirolli or DFD. Also Fassbaender mines these songs movingly.

Mike-Knight, that image you provide of the Kubelik/Baker/Kmentt ERDE is as close to adequate* as anything I've heard to the experience of the music.  Your description is the reason I keep coming back to the piece.  It's an obsession. 
Has anyone read anything about the piece (article, book, online) that they would recommend for a deeper understanding of it?  Analysis is welcome, though it would be a more uphill trudge for me.

Also, Mike-Knight, you mention Fassbaender's KINDERTOTENLIEDER: I'm assuming you mean the one with Chailly?  I like her voice very much, but I think I've not heard her in Mahler yet.

* (I just read back over that, and maybe I should emphasize that I was complimenting your description; I meant "adequate" in a "glass more than half full way", not as "faint praise".  If you'll pardon me a little neurotic jot-jot.  It was a lovely description and immediately seemed like my experience of the music.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on April 07, 2013, 11:28:22 PM
Octave, Yes, it is the Chailly version. Caught probably a bit late in the day, Fassbaender brings a lifetime of experience to the songs. She had a wonderfully distinctive voice and always provided new lights on what she sang.

Good to see someone balancing my negativity about Hampson. Part of my problem with him was a very early experience of his singing. I was in a short tour of chamber size performances of Dido and Aneas with Janet Baker. The Aneas was a young singer we did not know of; Hampson. The part of Aneas is small, but he yelled it at his considerable top volume and distorted the performance. Many years later I heard him do the same thing in Thais. So, deaf, or deafened,  to his good points, I nevertheless acknowledge lots of people think highly of him.

I don't know of any reading about Das Lied specifically beyond the usual material about how it came to be written and how the texts were adapted. What does help me is following the piano/vocal score and trying to sing the low voice songs.....not for public performance at all, just for pleasure and to understand them better.

I had forgotten the Wunderlich/DFD version....think I will go a'hunting.

Mike

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 10, 2013, 12:52:03 PM
Is there any evidence that Mahler had heard the hymn "abide with me" (sometime on a New York trip perhaps), or are the phrases in the finale of the ninth a coincidence?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: elotito on June 15, 2013, 09:53:01 AM
I've read through dozens of pages on this forum, as well as loads of reviews, and I still can't decide on a 3rd.
I have Horenstein but I'm not really happy with the recording quality, I would love something a bit more modern. I have been thinking of Chailly or Honeck. Are there any other modern recordings (well recorded/good interpretation) that I should be considering. I was also looking at Litton but I read some mixed reviews of that ranging from terrible to one of the best ever so I don't know what to think about that one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 15, 2013, 12:00:06 PM
Quote from: elotito on June 15, 2013, 09:53:01 AM
I've read through dozens of pages on this forum, as well as loads of reviews, and I still can't decide on a 3rd.
I have Horenstein but I'm not really happy with the recording quality, I would love something a bit more modern. I have been thinking of Chailly or Honeck. Are there any other modern recordings (well recorded/good interpretation) that I should be considering. I was also looking at Litton but I read some mixed reviews of that ranging from terrible to one of the best ever so I don't know what to think about that one.
Hi, Elotito - I've listened to many Mahler 3s over the years -- it's been a consistent favorite since I started listening to Mahler in 1987 -- and there are two I think combine great interpretation with glorious sound, those by Michael Tilson-Thomas and Esa Pekka Salonen. I have an SACD player, so I don't know if the non-SACD layer sounds as good, but the Salonen has always sounded wonderful to me.

My favorite M3 interpretation, however, has always been Bernstein's on CBS. It's currently available in DSD sound in the box set below. Even on its original CD version, I never had a problem with the 1960s sound. As I write this, on 6/15/13, it's available new for <$25 shipped on Amazon Marketplace. I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. You also get my favorite M1 (not an opinion shared by many), M6, M7, M8, and M9, and a great M2 (I like Abbado/Chicago and Bernstein on DG better).

[asin]B00008V6WI[/asin]

[asin]B0000062D6[/asin]

[asin]B005SJIP1E[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: elotito on June 15, 2013, 04:42:32 PM
Thanks Jay F, the Salonen recording is another one that I've heard both great things and not so good things but I will definitely check it out, sounds like it could be a winner. I was going to stay away from Bernstein, I was under the impression his recordings of Mahler were somewhat bloated but perhaps I should give them some consideration as well.
Why do there have to be so many choices for Mahler!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: techniquest on June 16, 2013, 08:23:57 AM
I'm happy to second Jay F re. the Bernstein CBS/Sony recording; it really is excellent and well worth buying - the clarity and depth of the recording belies it's age.
I haven't heard the Salonen or MTT recordings so can't comment on them, but I would like to add Rattle/CBSO on EMI as another recommendation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Parsifal on June 16, 2013, 08:51:00 AM
Quote from: elotito on June 15, 2013, 04:42:32 PM
Thanks Jay F, the Salonen recording is another one that I've heard both great things and not so good things but I will definitely check it out, sounds like it could be a winner. I was going to stay away from Bernstein, I was under the impression his recordings of Mahler were somewhat bloated but perhaps I should give them some consideration as well.

Berstein's second cycle on CD (released by DG) contains some very individual (some would say self-indulgent) performances but his first cycle on Columbia/Sony is more self disciplined and the most recent release has significantly improved sonics (due to going back to original session tapes).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 16, 2013, 07:03:03 PM
Quote from: techniquest on June 16, 2013, 08:23:57 AM
I'm happy to second Jay F re. the Bernstein CBS/Sony recording; it really is excellent and well worth buying - the clarity and depth of the recording belies it's age.
I haven't heard the Salonen or MTT recordings so can't comment on them, but I would like to add Rattle/CBSO on EMI as another recommendation.

To show how opinions can differ:
the Rattle you like is my least favorite recording of M3.  I found it plodding and just plain boring.   I liked both Bernstein recordings, but neither one wowed me.  (But the remastered CBS set is very much worth getting.) Same for the MTT.  Don't have the Salonen.

My own favorite M3s are both relatively recent: Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle and Gergiev/LSO.

I'm not sure I would use the word "bloated" to describe Bernstein's DGG cycle,  but it's certainly a unique take--Scarpia's term "individual" is le mot juste--almost necessary to listen to so you can decide for yourself.  And my favorite M2 is Bernstein/DG.

At the moment, I'm listening to M1 from Ozawa/BSO, to finish up a first listen to Ozawa's cycle.  This is rather like Inbal--no performance is a top pick of that particular symphony, but there's not a bad performance (IMO) in the bunch.  I was not as impressed by Ozawa's Eighth as Jens is,  but I don't want to underrate it.  If anyone is considering the set,  I would say to go for it.

There is actually one performance in that set I would consider a top pick "reference recording"--Kindertotenlieder, with Jessye Norman.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on June 16, 2013, 08:02:01 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 16, 2013, 07:03:03 PM
To show how opinions can differ:
I love MTT's 3rd, love Lenny's on DGG (exquisitely indulgent), love Barbirolli's and Sinopoli's and all of Abbado's, like Salonen and Boulez and Kubelik and Gielen very much, and from the sturm und drang contingent, also love Bychkov and Horenstein. I even love Haitink's CSO recording. Zinman, however, leaves me cold and I haven't liked Gergiev at all in this repertoire. And I've no opinion regarding Rattie or Tennstedt, having acquired theirs belatedly just as my latest Maher obsession peaked and suddenly died. It may be years before I get around to them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 17, 2013, 08:07:41 AM
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 16, 2013, 08:02:01 PM
I love MTT's 3rd, love Lenny's on DGG (exquisitely indulgent), love Barbirolli's and Sinopoli's and all of Abbado's, like Salonen and Boulez and Kubelik and Gielen very much, and from the sturm und drang contingent, also love Bychkov and Horenstein. I even love Haitink's CSO recording. Zinman, however, leaves me cold and I haven't liked Gergiev at all in this repertoire. And I've no opinion regarding Rattie or Tennstedt, having acquired theirs belatedly just as my latest Maher obsession peaked and suddenly died. It may be years before I get around to them.

Well, I seem to like Gergiev better than some other people, but even I think he's had more misses than hits with Mahler.  The only ones of his cycle I really like are the Third, the Sixth and the Seventh, and the Adagio from the 10th (which is coupled with his Second, not an outstanding performance), and possibly the First.   I actively dislike his Fourth--it might rank as the second worst Mahler recording I've ever heard.* Gergiev's  Fifth, Eighth and Ninth are solid performances but nothing more. (I think Jens thinks well of the Fifth, and almost nothing else in that cycle.)

The Haitink CSO is a good recording--I can understand why you like it,  but I'm simply not as enthusiastic about it. 

For me,  a good performance of the Third needs a strong beginning,  getting off on the right foot, so to speak,  with the opening march.  Gergiev and Zinman both to that, and Zinman in particular seems to make all the right choices from that point on.

*Of course, there are plenty of Mahler recordings I haven't heard, and the list of Bad Mahler Recordings is a very short one:

Starting with the worst one first
Rattle/CBSO Third
Gergiev/LSO Fourth
Abbado/VPO Second
Smithsonian Chamber Players--Chamber version of DLvdE, because I didn't really like the chamber version
Walter's Columbia Ninth, because it seems to have massive cuts inflicted on it
Bernstein's Berlin Ninth--because there seems to be an enormous among of audience noise (banging doors, coughing, etc.)
Levine's Salzburg Second--because of bad audio engineering relating to the placement of soloists, etc.

As you will see, three of the recordings get a fail from me for reasons not really under control of the performers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 17, 2013, 08:22:40 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 17, 2013, 08:07:41 AM
Well, I seem to like Gergiev better than some other people, but even I think he's had more misses than hits with Mahler.  The only ones of his cycle I really like are the Third, the Sixth and the Seventh, and the Adagio from the 10th (which is coupled with his Second, not an outstanding performance), and possibly the First.   I actively dislike his Fourth--it might rank as the second worst Mahler recording I've ever heard.* Gergiev's  Fifth, Eighth and Ninth are solid performances but nothing more. (I think Jens thinks well of the Fifth, and almost nothing else in that cycle.)

...and the Eighth, which I think is well served by St.Paul's (overly?) reverberant acoustic.

My Thirds of choice are, for different reasons, are Abbado/BPh, Boulez/WPh, and MTT/SFSO. Zinman's Third is one of the better of his set... and above average.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html)
Haven't gotten around to resurrecting (mhwaw!) the essays on the Third yet...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 17, 2013, 08:48:42 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 17, 2013, 08:22:40 AM
...and the Eighth, which I think is well served by St.Paul's (overly?) reverberant acoustic.


True.  But in that case the credit should go to Wren and not Gergiev, shouldn't it?

However, if I can put recordings on the Bad List because of acoustics, than certainly this Eighth can go on the Very Good List for the same reason.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: valtys on June 27, 2013, 08:43:46 AM
Quote from: elotito on June 15, 2013, 09:53:01 AM
I've read through dozens of pages on this forum, as well as loads of reviews, and I still can't decide on a 3rd.
I have Horenstein but I'm not really happy with the recording quality, I would love something a bit more modern. I have been thinking of Chailly or Honeck. Are there any other modern recordings (well recorded/good interpretation) that I should be considering. I was also looking at Litton but I read some mixed reviews of that ranging from terrible to one of the best ever so I don't know what to think about that one.

If you were thinking of the Chailly recording, do not hesitate to buy it. It is absolutely splendid. It may actually be my top choice right now. I grew up on Horenstein, Barbirolli, Kubelik and Bernstein's Sony recording, and felt like I had everything I needed for M3. But Chailly and Gielen have both surpassed all of those recordings for me. Gielen's first movement may be the best of that movement I've ever heard. Although taken as a whole, Chailly's slightly edges Gielen for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 27, 2013, 11:46:02 AM
that's err...different... :o

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oUoSAJKPL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Sterne-Symphony-Tragic-Transcription/dp/B00BIBQTQE/ref=pd_luc_wl_02_01_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Sterne-Symphony-Tragic-Transcription/dp/B00BIBQTQE/ref=pd_luc_wl_02_01_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 14, 2013, 09:03:09 AM


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l3cZP3kRCEQ/UeLX-8TIfDI/AAAAAAAAGqM/8xGyrpzzS70/s320/MPhil_Mariinsky_Gergiev_M5.png)

Ionarts-at-Large: Bavaro-Russian Peace Orchestra with Gergiev

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/ionarts-at-large-bavaro-russian-peace.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/ionarts-at-large-bavaro-russian-peace.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roberto on July 14, 2013, 10:16:22 AM
I would recommend Inbal's Mahler 3rd on Denon CD but it is hard to find. Maybe the Brilliant Classics reissue is more available. I like that recording very much, I think it is the biggest gem of his Mahler cycle. The early Denon digital sound is also very lovely (although it is not so early since Denon makes digital recordings since '73).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 31, 2013, 04:25:39 AM

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZhxJkXHCu9A/UfjwlGc41TI/AAAAAAAAGyc/G-HelfVWATg/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_3_1.png)
WETA / ionarts
Gustav Mahler Survey – Symphony No.3 (Part 1)


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-1.html)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N9PGZkXpPlY/Ufj2TPUeqpI/AAAAAAAAGzU/XprSMTDgP1c/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_3_2.png)
WETA / ionarts
Gustav Mahler Survey – Symphony No.3 (Part 2)


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 31, 2013, 07:44:54 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 31, 2013, 04:25:39 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZhxJkXHCu9A/UfjwlGc41TI/AAAAAAAAGyc/G-HelfVWATg/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_3_1.png)
WETA / ionarts
Gustav Mahler Survey – Symphony No.3 (Part 1)


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-1.html)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N9PGZkXpPlY/Ufj2TPUeqpI/AAAAAAAAGzU/XprSMTDgP1c/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_3_2.png)
WETA / ionarts
Gustav Mahler Survey – Symphony No.3 (Part 2)


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-2.html)


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IPkrK-57VLU/UfFuIMEi-QI/AAAAAAAAGt8/hWkrJhEEoRs/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2013.jpg)

Notes from the 2013 Salzburg Festival ( 3 )
El Sistema • Simón Bolívar Orchestra
Glorious Venezuelan Mahler


http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-3-el.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-3-el.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 07, 2013, 04:00:56 AM
Resurrecting the WETA Mahler Survey
to go along with coverage of part of the Salzburg Mahler Cycle


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P6H22KDd6dw/UgFGyyJ0t9I/AAAAAAAAG5U/R-igMN9QkJc/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_7_1.png)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.7 (Part 1)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html)


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BZS1d24Ctts/UgH63jkBZQI/AAAAAAAAG6U/Qu8O4SPCQcE/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_7_2.png)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.7 (Part 2)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 08, 2013, 03:37:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on August 07, 2013, 04:00:56 AM
Resurrecting the WETA Mahler Survey
to go along with coverage of part of the Salzburg Mahler Cycle


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P6H22KDd6dw/UgFGyyJ0t9I/AAAAAAAAG5U/R-igMN9QkJc/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_7_1.png)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.7 (Part 1)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html)


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BZS1d24Ctts/UgH63jkBZQI/AAAAAAAAG6U/Qu8O4SPCQcE/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_7_2.png)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.7 (Part 2)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html)

Resurrecting the WETA Mahler Survey
to go along with coverage of part of the Salzburg Mahler Cycle


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zQuX36FiGmY/UgLpngKHnoI/AAAAAAAAG8o/-kS16k69Vyw/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_5_2.png)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.5 (Part 2)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no5-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no5-part-2.html)



Notes from the 2013 Salzburg Festival ( 9 )
Vienna Philharmonic • Zubin Mehta
Mahler in the Morning


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IPkrK-57VLU/UfFuIMEi-QI/AAAAAAAAGt8/hWkrJhEEoRs/s1600/notesfromthesalzburgfestival2013.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/notes-from-2013-salzburg-festival-9.html)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brunumb on September 05, 2013, 08:03:18 PM
The 1950 live recording of Symphony No. 8 with Leopold Stokowski has been released on a number of labels including Music & Arts and Archipel.  This August, a new release appeared on the United Classics label:

http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Thousand-Stokowski-Conducts-Orchestra/dp/B00D2K1YLY/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1378439251&sr=1-2&keywords=mahler+stokowski

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/unitedclassicst2cd2013008.jpg)
`

Does anyone know if there is any difference in the sound quality of these editions, and can you make a recommendation of which would be the preferred one to obtain?  Thank you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on October 02, 2013, 12:40:21 PM
I have just ordered the new Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde, Yannick Nézet-Séguin, LPO, Sarah Connolly, Toby Spence.

Connolly is getting wonderful notices for just about everything she sings. Toby Spence has recently recovered from cancer and I wonder if this is a calling card to suggest he is returned to his former terrific form. The Sunday Times likened his performance to that of Wunderlich. I hope that is true and not soft soap. But it may at least suggest that Spence's voice is in excellent health.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 02:21:02 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81aqCnrHvLL._SL1440_.jpg)
Gustav Mahler
Music of Gustav Mahler from between 1903 and 1940
Urlicht AudioVisual (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EIPIL2M/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EIPIL2M/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EIPIL2M/goodmusicguideuk-21)
Not available in the US, currently.

The Mahler box, it is said, has distinct sonic improvements on all previous versions, includes material previously unavailable, brings together a comprehensive and complete collection from the period and backs it up with uniquely extensive notes by Sybil Werner. Curiously not distributed in Germany yet, as distributor claims insufficient interest.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on October 10, 2013, 12:53:11 AM
Mahler: Das Lied von Der Erde Nezet-Seguin, LPO, Sarah Connolly, Toby Spence

Each time I review another Das Lied, I suggest that I have enough performances, yet, my decision is easily undermined. Somehow, I felt this would be special and it is. This is a live performance from Feb 2011. That is important to what you hear in a couple of ways. It was recorded before Toby Spence became ill. He is back to performing again, but I don't know whether he sounds as overwhelmingly healthy as here....I do hope so. The other significance is that being live and in very close up sound, the singers provide for the audience and the placing robs the dynamics of some of the marked ppp, or pp markings. But the performers are nevertheless obviously sensitive to the dynamics, though deliberately depart from them several times and as is obvious, this is a performance choice and perhaps some decisions are taken to 'make sure', not a slur, but sheer professionalism.

So, where is this performance on that continuum from the stoic approach of Klemperer to the heady opulence of Levine? It is more towards the latter, but less voluptuous. The orchestra playing is also very upfront and the soloists forward. I like this ventilated sound, the soloists from the orchestra, especially the woodwind sound as lovely as I have ever heard. The conductor is sane and accommodates the singers without indulging them. He is especially impressive during that compressed symphony in the final song, the funeral march clear, but the arc of the piece doing its work and taking us into the mists across that bridge. That hectic passage where the young men ride through the water is kept in superb control, so the singer and orchestra stay in harness, but it is not at all cautious.

Spence is plain out terrific, the voice is forward, open, ringing. I don't know just how big the voice is, but on the recording it is heroic and he pits himself against the wall of sound in the first movement. He does as well as just about anyone. There are brief moments of strain, but less so than with most who have recorded this work. I won't mention the usual comparators, it stands on its own as a satisfying performance. He has the verbal acuity of the other songs under his belt, though does not shade the tone colour much.

Connelly: What a completely beautiful sound, I have never heard her sound more lovely. It is rich, grave and even through the range. This is a highly detailed reading with nothing bland. I did notice that often at the end of phrases crotchets become minims, but this is live and the moments are taken and I see that as expression within the bounds of the art of performance. It is never done in such a way as to slow the music down at all.

That final song, the core of the work is half an hour of terrific concentration with considerable flexibility and is very moving. At many points I felt gooseflesh as the words were made to tell. This is a living, organic performance, not a cold distant delivery of the notes.

The close sound does not quite allow the final dissolve into nothingness, but this is one of the very best performances I have heard and I will be keeping it by me to mine it time and again.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on October 10, 2013, 02:18:39 AM
Many thanks for the review and information Mike.

The button has been pressed
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Que on October 12, 2013, 02:28:11 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 02:21:02 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81aqCnrHvLL._SL1440_.jpg)
Gustav Mahler
Music of Gustav Mahler from between 1903 and 1940
Urlicht AudioVisual (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EIPIL2M/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EIPIL2M/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EIPIL2M/goodmusicguideuk-21)
Not available in the US, currently.

The Mahler box, it is said, has distinct sonic improvements on all previous versions, includes material previously unavailable, brings together a comprehensive and complete collection from the period and backs it up with uniquely extensive notes by Sybil Werner. Curiously not distributed in Germany yet, as distributor claims insufficient interest.

Great, thanks. :) I am into old fashioned Mahler so this might just be the thing for me. 8)

It took me consirable trouble to find a listing of the content, but I found it at MDT (http://www.mdt.co.uk/mahler-the-music-of-1903-1940-issued-78s-urlicht-8cds.html).

I noted that the 4th by Mengelberg and the RCO is not included, which is fine by me - I already got that covered.

Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on November 23, 2013, 10:06:16 AM
First listen to this magnificent performance!  Love that final movement, especially.  :)

Das Lied von der Erde

Christa Ludwig, contralto
Fritz Wunderlich, tenor

Otto Klemperer
New Philharmonia Orchestra

Recording:  Studio - 1964

EMI Classics

[asin]B003D0ZNWY[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on November 23, 2013, 02:54:05 PM
First listen to this performance.  Good performance, I did enjoy.  :)

Symphony No. 9 in D

Sir John Barbirolli
Berliner Philharmoniker

Recording:  Studio - 1964

EMI Classics

[asin]B003D0ZNWY[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on November 24, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
I think I can safely say that both Mahler's 6th and 7th are my equal favourite Mahler symphonies!

Listening to the 7th right now.   Ahhhh, yes!  Nachtmusik II - will you marry me?   :D

[asin]B00000C2KM[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 27, 2013, 10:34:19 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 23, 2013, 02:54:05 PM
First listen to this performance.  Good performance, I did enjoy.  :)

Symphony No. 9 in D

Sir John Barbirolli
Berliner Philharmoniker

Recording:  Studio - 1964

EMI Classics

[asin]B003D0ZNWY[/asin]

The particular recording has grown on me for over twenty years, and it only gets better as I listen.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on November 27, 2013, 10:37:49 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 27, 2013, 10:34:19 AM
The particular recording (Barbirolli/Ninth Symphony) has grown on me for over twenty years, and it only gets better as I listen.

Barbirolli had his defects now and then, but lack of passion or insight into the music...never!  Yes, a most excellent performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 27, 2013, 05:21:32 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 27, 2013, 10:34:19 AM
The particular recording has grown on me for over twenty years, and it only gets better as I listen.

Welcome back, Leo! Long time, no see!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on December 05, 2013, 03:14:10 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 27, 2013, 10:34:19 AM
The particular recording has grown on me for over twenty years, and it only gets better as I listen.

It is my touchstone for the work and i find myself almost groaning over the opening minutes.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Steve Nash on December 13, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Quote from: Que on October 12, 2013, 02:28:11 AM
Great, thanks. :) I am into old fashioned Mahler so this might just be the thing for me. 8)

It took me consirable trouble to find a listing of the content, but I found it at MDT (http://www.mdt.co.uk/mahler-the-music-of-1903-1940-issued-78s-urlicht-8cds.html).

I noted that the 4th by Mengelberg and the RCO is not included, which is fine by me - I already got that covered.

Q

That one was first released on LP, not 78s, so it didn't qualify...

FWIW the US distributor is nearly out and most European distributors are low on stock. And, of course, it's still not distributed in Germany, so your best bet to get it is MDT or Presto Classical. I got mine at Harold Moore's on a trip to London a couple of months ago. It's a really terrific set.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on December 13, 2013, 01:38:58 PM
Quote from: Steve Nash on December 13, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
That one was first released on LP, not 78s, so it didn't qualify...

FWIW the US distributor is nearly out and most European distributors are low on stock. And, of course, it's still not distributed in Germany, so your best bet to get it is MDT or Presto Classical. I got mine at Harold Moore's on a trip to London a couple of months ago. It's a really terrific set.
Welcome to the forum, Steve!
Feel free to post an introduction thread in the appropriate forum. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on December 16, 2013, 12:39:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 27, 2013, 05:21:32 PM
Welcome back, Leo! Long time, no see!

Thanks man, good to see you too! Again I was busy this month, but I plan to be around more :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2013, 02:15:43 PM


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DX4_ve7EuZ4/UqB-_O57r4I/AAAAAAAAHWI/4SfdDkEziXY/s1600/KonzerthausGrosserSaal.png)

Hungarian Mahler Goodness from Vienna's Konzerthaus

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/12/ionarts-at-large-hungarian-mahler.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/12/ionarts-at-large-hungarian-mahler.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on December 17, 2013, 12:04:04 AM


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DX4_ve7EuZ4/UqB-_O57r4I/AAAAAAAAHWI/4SfdDkEziXY/s1600/KonzerthausGrosserSaal.png)

Kožená Shines, Rattle Struggles, Vienna Phil Sleeps, Mahler Suffers

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/12/kozena-shines-rattle-struggles-vienna.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/12/kozena-shines-rattle-struggles-vienna.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 24, 2013, 06:56:54 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 24, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
I think I can safely say that both Mahler's 6th and 7th are my equal favourite Mahler symphonies!

Listening to the 7th right now.   Ahhhh, yes!  Nachtmusik II - will you marry me?   :D

[asin]B00000C2KM[/asin]

Same, Ray! Tennstedt is just so great here as well. The live performances are out of this world..! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on December 24, 2013, 06:59:30 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 24, 2013, 06:56:54 AM
Same, Ray! Tennstedt is just so great here as well. The live performances are out of this world..! :)

Hi Daniel.  This set is all studio recordings.  Equally as delicious!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 24, 2013, 07:00:57 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 24, 2013, 06:59:30 AM
Hi Daniel.  This set is all studio recordings.  Equally as delicious!  :)

Ah I see, the studio recordings are indeed great too! Have you heard the live recordings, Ray?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on December 24, 2013, 07:10:49 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 24, 2013, 07:00:57 AM
Ah I see, the studio recordings are indeed great too! Have you heard the live recordings, Ray?

Only the 5th live.  I'd say I enjoyed it equally to the studio recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on December 24, 2013, 07:12:29 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 24, 2013, 07:10:49 AM
Only the 5th live.  I'd say I enjoyed it equally to the studio recording.

Fair enough - definitely listen the live 6th, it will blow you away! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 06, 2014, 12:47:13 PM
I've been on a personal Mahler 8 Fest since the Holidays.

I've revisited the MTT, Wit, and heard the Nott for the first time. I heard the Stenz M8 and immediately enjoyed it. The engineering is top notch, the orchestra and choir soar with lyrical execution, nothing sounds forced. The soloists sound inspired. The orchestra is on fire. It's a direct M8 without sacrificing lyricism and beauty. I also love Gergiev's huge sounding account in St. Paul's Cathedral.

I also acquired some broadcasts, like a Bernstein/NYP broadcast from 1965, will listen soon.

I think my overall favorite M8 is the Wit (the singers are my favorite overall). I still love Inbal's account on the Denon label. And I like the MTT M8 for the CD mastering, a real nice quality recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on January 09, 2014, 01:39:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 20, 2010, 11:51:42 PM
Well, if Gergiev is any indication of how Thielemann's Mahler might (have) sound(ed) like, then silence is definitively to be preferred.
I like conductors who are open (and conscious) of their own shortcomings. Some think they ought to (be able) to do everything...

Believe it or not I have read through this entire thread (well, maybe I skimmed over a few bits...). Jens's comments on Thielemann were interesting. This comparison between him and Gergiev seems even more noteworthy now. When it was written, Munich had run off the former but had not yet hired the latter. Fire away!

One of these days I'll write something that's actually about Mahler.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 11, 2014, 02:15:47 AM
Release in February - an M2 for small orchestra... *intrigued*  ;D

[asin]B00HI9IKYE[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 11, 2014, 06:24:25 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 11, 2014, 02:15:47 AM
Release in February - an M2 for small orchestra... *intrigued*  ;D
???

Oh boy... well, I guess it could probably work out somehow...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 11, 2014, 08:14:48 PM
I think it will be one I will avoid. I did not enjoy his full score renditions, bought them both and junked them.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on January 12, 2014, 06:14:00 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 11, 2014, 08:14:48 PM
I think it will be one I will avoid. I did not enjoy his full score renditions, bought them both and junked them.

Mike

I like his second recording, but chamber reductions of Mahler always fail with me.  If I ever listen to it, it will be as a curiousity: I think size matters in this symphony (although it may not in other Mahler symphonies).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on January 12, 2014, 06:26:33 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 12, 2014, 06:14:00 AM
I like his second recording, but chamber reductions of Mahler always fail with me.  If I ever listen to it, it will be as a curiousity: I think size matters in this symphony (although it may not in other Mahler symphonies).

I am still hoping for a reduced chamber version of Symphony No. 8 "Symphony of a Thousand Without Words".   Still waiting..... :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 06:28:15 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 12, 2014, 06:26:33 AM
I am still hoping for a reduced chamber version of Symphony No. 8 "Symphony of a Thousand Without Words".   Still waiting..... :D

One to a part?  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 06:30:53 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 11, 2014, 08:14:48 PM
I think it will be one I will avoid. I did not enjoy his full score renditions, bought them both and junked them.

Mike

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 12, 2014, 06:14:00 AM
I like his second recording...

I like both (in fact, Kaplan's are my favorite Resurrections) but would probably take the Vienna recording to the desert island. I'm with Papy...a chamber version is intriguing.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on January 12, 2014, 06:47:10 AM
Reading the Product Blurb, he's obviously in the great tradition (which Mahler participated in) of producing reduced scores to reach a larger audience
Quote
Now, with his third recording based on a live performance at the Konzerthaus in
Vienna, Kaplan is set to make history once again, providing an opportunity for chamber, community, and regional opera orchestras to
perform this work that normally requires more than 100 musicians (there are only 56 musicians performing on this recording).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 12, 2014, 07:03:40 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 12, 2014, 06:14:00 AM
I like his second recording, but chamber reductions of Mahler always fail with me.  If I ever listen to it, it will be as a curiousity: I think size matters in this symphony (although it may not in other Mahler symphonies).

I could recommend that one for the M4 Jeffrey, if you have not heard it before :

[asin]B0009OJ9LS[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 12, 2014, 07:06:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 06:30:53 AM
I like both (in fact, Kaplan's are my favorite Resurrections) but would probably take the Vienna recording to the desert island. I'm with Papy...a chamber version is intriguing.

Sarge

Not that another M2 would hurt us anyway... :blank:

I love his VPO recording so that's definitely in the basket for February this one. I have never heard his LSO version so I have ordered a used copy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 12, 2014, 07:06:28 AM
Not that another M2 would hurt us anyway... :blank:

Exactly...another one in our collections won't even be noticed  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on January 12, 2014, 09:51:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 06:30:53 AM
I like both (in fact, Kaplan's are my favorite Resurrections) but would probably take the Vienna recording to the desert island. I'm with Papy...a chamber version is intriguing.

Sarge

I know people like his interpretation, but for me, it is forensically laid out and dead.

Mahler 8 reduction, Symphony of a Dozen.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 11:21:15 AM
Quote from: knight66 on January 12, 2014, 09:51:21 AM
Mahler 8 reduction, Symphony of a Dozen.


;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: madaboutmahler on January 20, 2014, 12:47:43 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 11, 2014, 02:15:47 AM
Release in February - an M2 for small orchestra... *intrigued*  ;D

[asin]B00HI9IKYE[/asin]

hmmm... anyone know how 'small'? ;)
My dad owns one of Kaplan's earlier recordings, haven't heard it yet..
Quote from: knight66 on January 12, 2014, 09:51:21 AM
Mahler 8 reduction, Symphony of a Dozen.

Mike

;D ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 20, 2014, 01:09:38 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 20, 2014, 12:47:43 PM
hmmm... anyone know how 'small'? ;)
My dad owns one of Kaplan's earlier recordings, haven't heard it yet..
;D ;D

From the amazon UK notes :

Now, with his third recording, based on a live performance at the Konzerthaus in Vienna, Kaplan is set to make history once again - not only capturing the imagination of his vast worldwide followers, but also providing an opportunity for chamber, community and regional opera orchestras to perform this work which normally requires more than 100 musicians (there are only 56 musicians performing on this recording). His recording with the Vienna Chamber Symphony sets the benchmark.

;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on March 02, 2014, 04:23:31 AM
Alright Mahlerites, I need to know.

I'm listening to Symphony No.8, Simon Rattle and the City of Birmingham Symphony Chorus and Orchestra. And most of it is pissing me off.

This is the first time I've listened to the symphony for over 2.5 years, but I remember I had the same reaction before, when I tried the symphony several times in the period after buying this disc. I just do not like it very much at all. Interminably happy shouting is about the best description I can come up with. There are some sections that I find effective (including the very final chorus), but honestly, a lot of it seems over-the-top operatic nonsense that lacks sincere feeling.

Now, what I'm curious about is: is it the work, or the performance?  I've read some commentary suggesting that the Eighth is somewhat different from most of Mahler's work, and that in fact some afficionados don't consider it to be up to the standards of his other works. That made me feel like less of a Philistine. Besides, all the other Mahler I have (Symphony No.5 (also Rattle), Das Lied von der Erde, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Kindertotenlieder, the other Rueckert-Lieder), I like.

Or is it Rattle? Are there other performances of this symphony with a bit more poise and less bluster?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 02, 2014, 07:39:45 AM
I like the piece a great deal, but some don't take to the predominance of voices in a symphony. Try Kent Nagano for contrast, a very thoughtful take on it: very well recorded, played and sung.

My own favourites are
Wyn Morris, Solti, Sinopoli, Anton Wit and Nagano, that covers a few possible approaches.

The first movement should have lots of adrenal rush, the words are treated as an ecstatic invite to be filled up and overflow with the Holy Spirit.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on March 02, 2014, 07:41:23 AM
Never have liked Mahler's 8th at all. For me, the only downside to what is, otherwise, an excellent, and rewarding, musical journey.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on March 02, 2014, 08:08:40 AM
The Eighth was the third Mahler symphony I listened to, after #1 and #4, and my first thought upon hearing #8 was "This? This is a symphony?" Not even the beautiful last movement of #4 could prepare me for the first movement of #8. On further examination, I decided that yes, it surely did seem like a "Symphony of 1,000," and I settled in with the glorious second movement.

My favorite version, Bernstein's on CBS, split the movements on two discs, isolating the second movement on its own CD. I played that a whole lot of times on its own. Eventually, I bought the Tennstedt version Gramophone was kvelling over, and realized that part of what I didn't like about Bernstein's first movement was the very rough sound quality.

Over time, Bernstein's first movement was remastered to heighten its potential for palatability, and that version of #8 has remained my favorite.

I also like Tennstedt's version on EMI, Sinopoli's, and Abbado's. I have never enjoyed Solti's version, even though much of the Mahler universe cites it as the best #8. I have never heard Rattle's version.

Many people think of #8 as Mahler's least good work. I don't cast it quite that far down, but it is not my favorite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on March 02, 2014, 12:13:55 PM
Thank you for the tips. I might see what happens if I sample some of those other versions - particularly Nagano as I'd already read some other comments that suggested that one might be a sufficiently different approach to elicit a different response.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 02, 2014, 12:43:35 PM
I hope the Nagano turns the piece on for you.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on March 02, 2014, 01:10:29 PM
Okay, maybe it's just because I'm listening via my computer speakers rather than a CD with headphones, but Nagano's choir and soloists are already irritating me a little less. Well, except the tenor soloist is booming out a little bit.

EDIT: Nope, doing a quick side-by-side comparison on Spotify confirms that at the very least I prefer the choir on Nagano. As much as anything that might be because the instrumental parts are heard more strongly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on March 02, 2014, 01:37:02 PM
Yes, do try another version. Have not heard Nagano yet, but comments (like Mike's above, and from other friens) are quite positive. I also like Sinopoli and Tennstedt, and (especially) Chailly, particularly for the spectacular sound quality.

Solti's was the first version made with the sound quality that the symphony requires, but I find his tempos a bit too driven; other conductors allow Mahler's lines a little more breathing room.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 02, 2014, 01:43:29 PM
There is a live Tennstedt that is terrific, much more organic than his studio version which disappointed me.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on March 02, 2014, 03:26:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 02, 2014, 07:41:23 AM
Never have liked Mahler's 8th at all. For me, the only downside to what is, otherwise, an excellent, and rewarding, musical journey.
I cannot stand 8. Partly it might be my liking for small scale, Symphony of 200 I might have been able to stand :)
I haven't heard Solti's or Rattle's either -- and I own them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 02, 2014, 06:16:53 PM
Part of the problem with the Eighth is the size and scope of the work:  you have several hundred people performing a contrapuntally complex piece of music that can last almost an hour and a half, so it's easy for a conductor to not be able to nail down every single element needed.

I don't know of a recording I would consider a complete home run.  Nagano and Wit come close.  So does Tilson Thomas and Chailly on CD.  But everyone has a moment or two or four in which the excellence gets a scratch on it.  MTT, for instance,  has a baritone who seems to chew up the words in his solo towards the start of Part II.   John Shirley-Quick does the same thing to Solti--although Solti is not a favorite of mine.

I suppose I'd suggest one of the four I mentioned as possibles.  Also be aware that I specified Chailly on CD because his DVD version (with the Gewandhaus) is a rather boring affair.  (So is Dudamel's DVD.)   That's a little puzzling, in fact, because the DVD of the Second Symphony is a top notch affair--performed and released at the same time as the DVD of the Eighth, and with more or less the same forces.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 02, 2014, 07:25:06 PM
My problem with Mahler's 8th is that while I really, really like bits of it, I don't like the whole thing.
The beginning of the second movement is great, and so is...

http://www.youtube.com/v/4GuyifwENck


The beginning and 3:30, the note at 3:41, 4:40, 5:00... this is Mahler. This is what makes his music my favorite thing in the world. It always seemed to me like in this symphony he would weave in and out of using the Mahler notes, while in the 9th symphony he solidified his language to where it is a constrant stream of Mahler notes in the first and last movements. And which Mahler symphony is my favorite and least favorite? (despite the fact that I still really like it). Yep...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 03, 2014, 08:24:17 AM
The Antoni Wit M8 on Naxos is my current (favorite) top choice. The work is a hard nut to crack, but over time I've come to embrace it because of Wit's account, and also Gergiev's amazing account at St. Pauls Cathedral.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on March 03, 2014, 04:52:46 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 02, 2014, 06:16:53 PM
Part of the problem with the Eighth is the size and scope of the work:  you have several hundred people performing a contrapuntally complex piece of music that can last almost an hour and a half, so it's easy for a conductor to not be able to nail down every single element needed.

I don't know of a recording I would consider a complete home run.  Nagano and Wit come close.  So does Tilson Thomas and Chailly on CD.  But everyone has a moment or two or four in which the excellence gets a scratch on it.  MTT, for instance,  has a baritone who seems to chew up the words in his solo towards the start of Part II.   John Shirley-Quick does the same thing to Solti--although Solti is not a favorite of mine.

I suppose I'd suggest one of the four I mentioned as possibles.  Also be aware that I specified Chailly on CD because his DVD version (with the Gewandhaus) is a rather boring affair.  (So is Dudamel's DVD.)   That's a little puzzling, in fact, because the DVD of the Second Symphony is a top notch affair--performed and released at the same time as the DVD of the Eighth, and with more or less the same forces.
And which, Jeffrey, is your preferred technique for a root canal?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 04, 2014, 10:57:08 AM
Concerning Mahler's Symphony #8:

One can detect a certain willfulness in the concept: yet musically the two-movement structure is similar to other two-movement sonatas or symphonies, e.g. Beethoven's last Piano Sonata and Prokofiev's Second Symphony.

It is possible that the texts mask the structure for some people: one could try ignoring the texts and simply treat the voices as additional instruments.  On the other hand, such a listening experience would lessen the richness of the initial concept, i.e. that an ideational link exists between the Veni Creator Spiritus of Hrabanus Maurus and the last part of Goethe's Faust, which the musical development binds together, if one listens carefully.

Certainly when dealing with issues as large as the Cosmos and Divinity as Love and Humanity's roles, one can understand why Mahler wanted a large orchestra.

To be sure, a case can be made for addressing such wonders in subtle ways, but Mahler obviously did not choose such a path.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 04, 2014, 10:58:14 AM
Well, I ought soon-ish to revisit the Eighth.  Why, I think I even still have the score . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 04, 2014, 02:58:22 PM
I blame my initial hatred of the M8 on Solti's famous cso recording. It took me years (and more pleasant recordings) to hear the beauty of the M8 and discover love for it. Obviously, no one has to love it, I'm not trying to preach here :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 04, 2014, 09:51:01 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 03, 2014, 08:24:17 AM
The Antoni Wit M8 on Naxos is my current (favorite) top choice. The work is a hard nut to crack, but over time I've come to embrace it because of Wit's account, and also Gergiev's amazing account at St. Pauls Cathedral.

Agree with that (largely) and your reaction to the Solti.


Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.8 (Part 1)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DgJD7VhBr_w/T-2enjwwZlI/AAAAAAAACoo/evD2q5K9GuM/s400/Gustav_Mahler_8_1_survey_laurson.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no8-part-1.html)


Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.8 (Part 2)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8IrfhudU_0M/T-2epHtRnVI/AAAAAAAACo0/CwAjqf-uYjM/s400/Gustav_Mahler_8_2_survey_laurson.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no8-part-2.html)

QuoteFor a while, the Mahler Eight with Antoni Wit and the Warsaw Philharmonic on Naxos was the only recording (easily) available in the U.S. that comes close to Ozawa's splendor. Classics Today sings its praises loudly (then again, Classics Today sings "The 5 Browns" praises loudly, too) and indeed, it is a grand, a weighty, a magnificent reading. The timings are incidentally similar to Ozawa's: 6:25 for "Alles Vergängliche," 23:56 for "Veni, Creator Spiritus"—although minutes and seconds rarely tell the whole story about any Mahler symphony. Wit knows how to handle large orchestral forces: His 2000 recording of Messiaen's Symphonie Turangalila (with the Polish Radio SO) was the disc that turned me on to Naxos as a high quality in label in the first place; a Turangalila to hold its pride of place against Chung (DG) and Nagano (Warner). The Mahler meanwhile is well paced (at just under 81 minutes the Naxos engineers were sadly unable to fit it onto one disc, eating up the Naxos price advantage), this is the kind of "Continental" interpretation I need to hear in the Eighth.

QuoteUnlikely relief comes from Valery Gergiev (LSO Live, SACD). Having found his Mahler thus far aimless, pointless, and of little interest, my hopes for his Eighth were low. It's easy to exceed low expectations, of course; there are politicians who have made careers of doing nothing else. But Gergiev's live recording from July 2008 enjoys the natural reverberation of St Paul's Cathedral instead of the small, dry acoustic of the Barbican Hall. His crony-ist all-Russian selection of singers acquits itself well enough, the London Symphony Orchestra performs with routine, jazzed up by a touch of dedication. Gergiev is fairly quick (77 min.), especially considering that he has to deal with more natural reverb than other conductors, but it is evidently a mistake to assume a direct correlation of length, breadth, and atmospheric momentousness.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on March 04, 2014, 11:37:55 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2014, 10:57:08 AM
It is possible that the texts mask the structure for some people: one could try ignoring the texts and simply treat the voices as additional instruments.  On the other hand, such a listening experience would lessen the richness of the initial concept, i.e. that an ideational link exists between the Veni Creator Spiritus of Hrabanus Maurus and the last part of Goethe's Faust, which the musical development binds together, if one listens carefully.

Well, I've already noted that the Nagano reading was immediately a bit more appealing, simply because the voices were treated a bit more like additional instruments, in terms of the balance.

I've already observed in the Mahler 2 blind listening, also, that a reading which placed the voice very much to the forefront in Urlicht was not to my liking. One of the attractions of Mahler to me is his very skilful and colourful orchestral scoring. It's definitely my preference to avoid the voices dominating the texture. And indeed, some of the linkages between the movements are in the instrumental parts, not the vocal ones.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on March 05, 2014, 01:14:27 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2014, 10:57:08 AM
Concerning Mahler's Symphony #8:

One can detect a certain willfulness in the concept: yet musically the two-movement structure is similar to other two-movement sonatas or symphonies, e.g. Beethoven's last Piano Sonata and Prokofiev's Second Symphony.

It is possible that the texts mask the structure for some people: one could try ignoring the texts and simply treat the voices as additional instruments.  On the other hand, such a listening experience would lessen the richness of the initial concept, i.e. that an ideational link exists between the Veni Creator Spiritus of Hrabanus Maurus and the last part of Goethe's Faust, which the musical development binds together, if one listens carefully.

Certainly when dealing with issues as large as the Cosmos and Divinity as Love and Humanity's roles, one can understand why Mahler wanted a large orchestra.

To be sure, a case can be made for addressing such wonders in subtle ways, but Mahler obviously did not choose such a path.

Words of wisdom.

I see I'm in the minority here that hasn't struggled with this work; in fact, it's been one of the reasons I loved Mahler when I first listened to his music oh, so many years ago. The second-part Faust setting always makes me think how awesome a fully-fledged Mahler opera would be.

Segerstam, Nagano and Wit are my top favourite renditions; the most memorable version I've heard recently being a surprisingly good Gergiev, it easily being the most memorable rendition in his otherwise quite problematic Mahler cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 05, 2014, 04:13:30 AM
I had no problem either and it was the first of his symphonies I encountered. I did learn it by singing in Chorus when I was 18, so perhaps just listening would have been more challenging. The one I cannot crack is No 3, where I don't get the relationship between the movements, it hits me as random. I rarely listen to it all the way through.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on March 05, 2014, 04:33:49 AM
Quote from: knight66 on March 05, 2014, 04:13:30 AM
I had no problem either and it was the first of his symphonies I encountered. I did learn it by singing in Chorus when I was 18, so perhaps just listening would have been more challenging. The one I cannot crack is No 3, where I don't get the relationship between the movements, it hits me as random. I rarely listen to it all the way through.

Mike
I find that about 3 too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 05, 2014, 05:46:59 AM
Mahler wanted to convey everything in the world and by the end of the third movement I feel he has succeeded and time to finish already. Sheesh!

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roberto on March 22, 2014, 11:06:19 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on March 05, 2014, 01:14:27 AM
Words of wisdom.
I agree! Mahler 8 is not my favorite Mahler symphony but I like both recordings I have: Solti on Decca and Inbal on Denon. (Although they have chosen different approach.)

QuoteThe one I cannot crack is No 3, where I don't get the relationship between the movements, it hits me as random. I rarely listen to it all the way through.
I love the first three movement of the 3rd but last movement is always too long for me...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 25, 2014, 09:24:23 AM
Quote from: knight66 on March 05, 2014, 05:46:59 AM
Mahler wanted to convey everything in the world and by the end of the third movement I feel he has succeeded and time to finish already. Sheesh!

Mike

That's what I feel in the 6th!

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on March 25, 2014, 09:27:22 AM
Quote from: knight66 on March 05, 2014, 04:13:30 AM
The one I cannot crack is No 3, where I don't get the relationship between the movements, it hits me as random. I rarely listen to it all the way through.

Mike

The M3 was difficult for me too, eventually I read somewhere that this 'randomness' between movements was what made Mahler a modernist in his time, and that helped me except the M3 and the M5 (similar to the M3 in it's random quality).

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on March 27, 2014, 10:22:40 AM
Ah Leo, so much is in the ear of the listener. I have never had any trouble with the 5th which feels pretty much like a normally structured symphony to me. Some critics have problems with the structure of the 7th. But again, despite the then unconventional arrangement of the movements, I did not find it incoherent in the way I have difficulty with the 3rd.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on April 10, 2014, 10:12:49 PM
I just listened to Klemperer's 7th for the first time. I thought the inner movements were outstanding. As for the outer movements, well, I still have trouble with them in general (my others are Bernstein/Sony and Barenboim).

This piece may not ever click with me. The first movement reminds me of why I previously disliked Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2014, 12:17:31 AM
Quote from: Pat B on April 10, 2014, 10:12:49 PM
I just listened to Klemperer's 7th for the first time. I thought the inner movements were outstanding. As for the outer movements, well, I still have trouble with them in general (my others are Bernstein/Sony and Barenboim).

This piece may not ever click with me. The first movement reminds me of why I previously disliked Mahler.

That 1st movement is vintage Mahler .... in its extremes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 11, 2014, 03:17:37 PM
I started off listening to the middle and late symphonies, 5, 6, 7, 9, Das Lied and 10.

I thought they were absolutely marvelous, just my idea of what music should be and Das Lied and the 9th, I thought and still do, were amongst the greatest pieces of music ever.

I never 'got' the 8th, and never have. I think it's cos I don't understand the whole Faust thing. Goethe's Faust just seems very silly to me, not a masterpiece of world literature.

Then when I got around to the early symphonies (2-4) I found that they were full of good things, but quite weak compared to the later symphonies, there's nothing in them that isn't in the later symphonies. I think they're kind of optional.

As for 1, it's one of those pieces of music that is so over the top it's quite good. I listen to it quite often (and usually with the Blumine movement, which seems to give it more balance).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 11, 2014, 04:29:10 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 11, 2014, 03:17:37 PM

I never 'got' the 8th, and never have. I think it's cos I don't understand the whole Faust thing. Goethe's Faust just seems very silly to me, not a masterpiece of world literature.

I am unsure whether you saw my previous comments:

Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2014, 10:57:08 AM
Concerning Mahler's Symphony #8:

One can detect a certain willfulness in the concept: yet musically the two-movement structure is similar to other two-movement sonatas or symphonies, e.g. Beethoven's last Piano Sonata and Prokofiev's Second Symphony.

It is possible that the texts mask the structure for some people: one could try ignoring the texts and simply treat the voices as additional instruments.  On the other hand, such a listening experience would lessen the richness of the initial concept, i.e. that an ideational link exists between the Veni Creator Spiritus of Hrabanus Maurus and the last part of Goethe's Faust, which the musical development binds together, if one listens carefully.

Certainly when dealing with issues as large as the Cosmos and Divinity as Love and Humanity's roles, one can understand why Mahler wanted a large orchestra.

To be sure, a case can be made for addressing such wonders in subtle ways, but Mahler obviously did not choose such a path.

The Faust story goes back centuries before Goethe composed his epic variation on it, where Faust is redeemed from his pact with Mephistopheles by das Ewig-Weibliche.

Trust me: Goethe's version of Faust is not "very silly!"  Try the Norton Critical Edition.  Given Goethe's accomplishments in other works (Werther, Die Wahlverwandtschaften, the dozens and dozens of poems, etc.) one should give him the benefit of the doubt in his Faust tale.  One can say that the prose-poem-drama experiment does not convince for whatever reason, but certainly a fellow genius like Mahler would never have used something "very silly" for a composition he believed to be highly spiritual and a universe in itself.

By using the Veni, Creator Spiritus Mahler connects the Holy Spirit's power to the wandering of Faust's soul toward Heaven, a wandering needing the "Eternal-Feminine" to speak for Faust's redemption from his assorted crimes. 

It has perhaps not been sufficiently appreciated that one interpretation of Mahler's thematic linkage is to view the Holy Spirit as a feminine creative principle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on April 11, 2014, 05:34:49 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 11, 2014, 03:17:37 PM
I started off listening to the middle and late symphonies, 5, 6, 7, 9, Das Lied and 10.

I thought they were absolutely marvelous, just my idea of what music should be and Das Lied and the 9th, I thought and still do, were amongst the greatest pieces of music ever.

I never 'got' the 8th, and never have. I think it's cos I don't understand the whole Faust thing. Goethe's Faust just seems very silly to me, not a masterpiece of world literature.

Then when I got around to the early symphonies (2-4) I found that they were full of good things, but quite weak compared to the later symphonies, there's nothing in them that isn't in the later symphonies. I think they're kind of optional.

As for 1, it's one of those pieces of music that is so over the top it's quite good. I listen to it quite often (and usually with the Blumine movement, which seems to give it more balance).

Ahh, but have you actually ever read Goethe's Faust itself? It really is a masterpiece. Don't judge it by Mahler's awful symphony. (actually it has spawned other bombastic pieces as well.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 12, 2014, 03:56:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 11, 2014, 04:29:10 PM

The Faust story goes back centuries before Goethe composed his epic variation on it, where Faust is redeemed from his pact with Mephistopheles by das Ewig-Weibliche.

Trust me: Goethe's version of Faust is not "very silly!"  Try the Norton Critical Edition.  Given Goethe's accomplishments in other works (Werther, Die Wahlverwandtschaften, the dozens and dozens of poems, etc.) one should give him the benefit of the doubt in his Faust tale.  One can say that the prose-poem-drama experiment does not convince for whatever reason, but certainly a fellow genius like Mahler would never have used something "very silly" for a composition he believed to be highly spiritual and a universe in itself.

By using the Veni, Creator Spiritus Mahler connects the Holy Spirit's power to the wandering of Faust's soul toward Heaven, a wandering needing the "Eternal-Feminine" to speak for Faust's redemption from his assorted crimes. 

It has perhaps not been sufficiently appreciated that one interpretation of Mahler's thematic linkage is to view the Holy Spirit as a feminine creative principle.

I first heard the Eighth Symphony via Leonard Bernstein's 1960's recording with the London Symphony, a thrilling, energetic performance.  Decades later I was fortunate to be present for a live performance by the Cleveland Orchestra with Robert Shaw conducting. 

The second movement as the equivalent of Adagio-Scherzo-Finale never bothered me, and to be sure, the Veni, Creator Spiritus + Faust - Final Act needed some thought, and I understand why some people do not accept the pairing.

Still, new things come to me with every hearing: I now have the DGG/Boulez and can recommend it highly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 15, 2014, 03:22:36 AM
Quote from: Ken B on April 11, 2014, 05:34:49 PM
Ahh, but have you actually ever read Goethe's Faust itself? It really is a masterpiece. Don't judge it by Mahler's awful symphony. (actually it has spawned other bombastic pieces as well.)

Let's not confuse Faust I (the "masterpiece" you refer to) & Faust II here, though. Bit of a difference. Mahler knew the latter by heart; different times. Nowadays no one would want to.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on May 12, 2014, 03:54:18 AM
Does anyone have this box set?  Or individual CD's from it?  What think ye? 

Apparently some of the recordings go back 40 years, but according to reviews have been transferred quite well:

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]

Mainly 5-star reviews on Amazon!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 12, 2014, 05:19:00 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 12, 2014, 03:54:18 AM
Does anyone have this box set?  Or individual CD's from it?  What think ye? 

Apparently some of the recordings go back 40 years, but according to reviews have been transferred quite well:

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]

Mainly 5-star reviews on Amazon!

I like his 6th so much, it's one of the only versions I listen to all the way through instead of giving up and playing Bernstein. I have tinnitus, so I tend not to comment on sound quality, but it sounds fine to me. I have Levine's M7 -- the original CD, not the one in this box set -- and like it, too. But I like lots of M7s (just the opposite of the way I react to M6s).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 12, 2014, 11:55:44 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 12, 2014, 03:54:18 AM
Does anyone have this box set?  Or individual CD's from it?  What think ye? 

Apparently some of the recordings go back 40 years, but according to reviews have been transferred quite well:

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]

Mainly 5-star reviews on Amazon!

Levine's Fifth was one of my first CD purchases back when, and after all the other Mahler I've heard in the last few years, remains a favorite.   I do have the set now, and have no complaints.  True, it does not contain the Second and Eighth,  but given the one recording I have of Levine doing the Second (at Salzburg) I'm not sure that's a flaw.....

What I think is Levine's true marvel of a Mahler, however, is not part of this  set.  It's his recording of the Ninth with the Munich Philharmonic,  issued on Oehms.

And there should be no problem with the sound.  We are not talking about transfers from 78s recorded in 1938 or something.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2014, 12:02:38 PM
Levine's Chicago Third is one of my favorites. The Bimm-bamm fifth movement has a darkness to it that, although not altogether unique, is a rare interpretive choice. I think he sustains a protracted finale beautifully.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on May 12, 2014, 12:20:41 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 12, 2014, 03:54:18 AM
Does anyone have this box set? 

It is one of my favorites.  A former gmger turned me onto the set.  I think it is awesome!  The sq is not bad but lacks the transparency and detail of modern sound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on May 12, 2014, 12:24:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2014, 12:02:38 PM
Levine's Chicago Third is one of my favorites. The Bimm-bamm fifth movement has a darkness to it that, although not altogether unique, is a rare interpretive choice. I think he sustains a protracted finale beautifully.

Sarge

Many thanks to everyone for the nice responses!

The Third Symphony I suppose is an acquired taste.  I recall reading something decades ago about how the outer movements needed a trim, but obviously Mahler did not think so!

I used to listen to it much more often 50 years ago, when I had no adult responsibilities...like a job!   ;)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 12:39:00 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 12, 2014, 12:24:03 PM
The Third Symphony I suppose is an acquired taste. 

It is the first Mahler I've ever heard (Vaclav Neumann / Czech PO) and it was love at first sight. I even thought it to be far above, and way beyond, my beloved Beethoven. Not so anymore, but I still love it.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 07:53:23 AM
Quote from: Cato on May 12, 2014, 12:24:03 PM
The Third Symphony I suppose is an acquired taste.

It was for me. It took me more than a decade to move happily beyond the first movement (which I adored). I don't know why the other movements appealed so little to me then. Ignorant youth  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 13, 2014, 08:38:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 07:53:23 AM
It was for me. It took me more than a decade to move happily beyond the first movement (which I adored). I don't know why the other movements appealed so little to me then. Ignorant youth  ;D

Sarge

I loved Mahler's Third from the moment I first heard it (Bernstein CBS, original US CD). It was hard to believe such wonderful, beautiful music had existed all those years and I had never heard it. I'm so happy popular music crapped out in the '80s for me. That was how I came to listen to classical.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 08:59:59 AM
Quote from: Jay F on May 13, 2014, 08:38:43 AM
I loved Mahler's Third from the moment I first heard it (Bernstein CBS, original US CD). It was hard to believe such wonderful, beautiful music had existed all those years and I had never heard it. I'm so happy popular music crapped out in the '80s for me. That was how I came to listen to classical.

It may have been that beauty that prevented me from appreciating it (beyond the first movement)--that and it's relative lack of "drama." I had a similiar long-term struggle with the Fourth (possibly Mahler's most beautiful creation). Mahler's other symphonies came easily to me, especially the Second, Fifth and Sixth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on May 13, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 08:59:59 AM
Mahler's other symphonies came easily to me, especially the Second, Fifth and Sixth.


Mahler is always better when he is confused and/or lost.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on May 13, 2014, 09:34:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 08:59:59 AM
It may have been that beauty that prevented me from appreciating it (beyond the first movement)--that and it's relative lack of "drama." I had a similiar long-term struggle with the Fourth (possibly Mahler's most beautiful creation). Mahler's other symphonies came easily to me, especially the Second, Fifth and Sixth.

Sarge

Quote from: springrite on May 13, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
Mahler is always better when he is confused and/or lost.

Given the "nature" of the work in the opening 3 movements, you will not hear much or any of those things!   0:)

On the other hand, Nature and Man have their violent brutalities and tragedies.   But Mahler wanted to express something different.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on May 13, 2014, 10:04:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 08:59:59 AM
the Fourth (possibly Mahler's most beautiful creation).
Sarge

Really?!   ??? :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 13, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 08:59:59 AM
It may have been that beauty that prevented me from appreciating it (beyond the first movement)--that and it's relative lack of "drama." I had a similiar long-term struggle with the Fourth (possibly Mahler's most beautiful creation). Mahler's other symphonies came easily to me, especially the Second, Fifth and Sixth.

Sarge

The sixth is my favorite. I've never liked 4 or 5, or 9, for that matter, as much as 2, 3, 6, and 7.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 11:19:29 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 13, 2014, 10:04:14 AM
Really?!   ??? :D

Of course  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 13, 2014, 11:21:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 07:53:23 AM
It was for me. It took me more than a decade to move happily beyond the first movement (which I adored). I don't know why the other movements appealed so little to me then. Ignorant youth  ;D

Whilst I liked many of the next movements and considered the first far too endless. I still do btw, I heard the 3rd live last december and was rather pleased that Pan's Entrance finally came to an end. I appreciate the work mainly for its 3rd (Posthorn!) and 6th movement (Finale), as long as the conductor keeps a steady (and almost hypnotic) pulse in the latter.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 11:25:33 AM
M3 is still my favorite Mahler symphony and I don't think it'll ever be replaced, period.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 11:26:32 AM
Quote from: Marc on May 13, 2014, 11:21:17 AMI heard the 3rd live last december and was rather pleased that Pan's Entrance finally came to an end.

But isn't that glorious ending worth waiting for?  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 11:28:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 11:26:32 AM
But isn't that glorious ending worth waiting for?  ;)

Sarge

A glorious ending which crowns a glorious start.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on May 13, 2014, 11:30:45 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 11:28:42 AM
A glorious ending which crowns a glorious start.  8)

OK.
I can live with that.

:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 01:06:32 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 11:28:42 AM
A glorious ending which crowns a glorious start.  8)

I need to listen to it now  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on May 13, 2014, 01:39:24 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 11:19:29 AM
Of course  8)

Sarge
He said possibly. Anything is possible.

:)

I think the 4th really is prettiest. It is a good choice for first Mahler to hear.
Also the only one I have ever heard (or likely will hear) live.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on May 13, 2014, 01:45:56 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 13, 2014, 11:25:33 AM
M3 is still my favorite Mahler symphony and I don't think it'll ever be replaced, period.  ;D
My choice has always been 6, but I think that is changing. I might go for 2 now. I need to get to know 9 better. The bottom has dropped out on 5 for me, which is odd as after 6 it was long my second choice. But Mahler has been in decline for a while. 8 should be expunged of course, but there have been periods when I really liked 7. Can't say 3 has ever appealed overly much, in toto, though there are good movements.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 13, 2014, 01:39:24 PM
I think the 4th really is prettiest. It is a good choice for first Mahler to hear.
Also the only one I have ever heard (or likely will hear) live.

Are you not living near an orchestra?

I've heard them all live now (took me 58 years  ;) )

1 - Lane/Cleveland, Maazel/Vienna Phil

2- Ormandy/Cleveland, Järvi/Frankfurt, plus an unknown conductor and orchestra at the Rosengarten Mannheim in 1975 (my first date with the future Mrs. Rock...I wasn't paying much attention to the music  ;D )

3- Chailly/Gewandhaus

4 - Maazel/Cleveland

5 - Bamert/Cleveland, Welser-Möst/Cleveland

6 - Szell/Cleveland, Abbado/Cleveland, Segerstam/Rheinland-Pfalz (with three hammerblows!)

7 - Tennstedt/Cleveland, Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

8 - Boulez/Staatskapelle Berlin

9 -  Haitink/Cleveland, Pesek/Royal Liverpool

10 - Harding/Vienna Phil


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on May 13, 2014, 02:11:57 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2014, 01:56:23 PM
Are you not living near an orchestra?

I've heard them all live now (took me 58 years  ;) )

1 - Lane/Cleveland, Maazel/Vienna Phil

2- Ormandy/Cleveland, Järvi/Frankfurt, plus an unknown conductor and orchestra at the Rosengarten Mannheim in 1975 (my first date with the future Mrs. Rock...I wasn't paying much attention to the music  ;D )

3- Chailly/Gewandhaus

4 - Maazel/Cleveland

5 - Bamert/Cleveland, Welser-Möst/Cleveland

6 - Szell/Cleveland, Abbado/Cleveland, Segerstam/Rheinland-Pfalz (with three hammerblows!)

7 - Tennstedt/Cleveland, Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

8 - Boulez/Staatskapelle Berlin

9 -  Haitink/Cleveland, Pesek/Royal Liverpool

10 - Harding/Vienna Phil


Sarge
Priorities!
Anyway that's an impressive list Sarge.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on May 14, 2014, 04:12:36 PM
Hmm... Sarge, you've got me trying to remember who I heard the Mahler symphonies with. I didn't hear 8 that's for sure. I think my live Mahler list is:

1 - Duisburg Philharmonic/Weil, Eschenbach/CSO (Ravinia), Eschenbach/Philly (Frankfurt Alte Oper), Dudamel/CSO (Chicago - twice)

2 - Haitink/CSO (Chicago), Rattle/Philly (Carnegie), Haitink/CSO (15 years after the first one - Chicago)

3 - Jansons/NYPO, Conlon/Juilliard Orchestra (Carnegie), Spano/Brooklyn Phil (BAM), Boulez/VPO (Carnegie), Conlon/CSO (Ravinia), Haitink/CSO (Chicago)

4 - Haitink/CSO (Chicago)

5 - Barenboim/CSO (four different occasions - Chicago (x 2), Carnegie (x 2)), Maazel/VPO (Carnegie), Chailly/RCO (Avery Fisher), Chailly/Leipzig (Chicago), Lewanski/DePaul Symphony Orchestra (DePaul)

6 - Eschenbach/NYPO, MTT/SFSO (Carnegie), Haitink/CSO (Chicago)

7 - Ashkenazy/Czech PO (Avery Fisher), Barenboim/CSO (Carnegie), Boulez/CSO (Chicago), Oundjian/Civic Orchestra of Chicago (Chicago)

8 - none

9 - Barenboim/CSO (Philharmonie Berlin), MTT/LSO(Frankfurt Alte Oper), Grant Park SO/Kalmar (Millennium Park) MTT/CSO (Chicago)

10 - Adagio only - MTT/SFSO (Carnegie), Robertson/Civic Orchestra of Chicago (Chicago)

Lied Von der Erde - Nott/CSO (Chicago)

I'll have to check my stash of old programs.

*edit: I just checked my stash of old programs and updated the above.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 14, 2014, 08:00:05 PM
I have heard:

M2 Pittsburgh SO. Manfred Honeck.

M3 Philadelphia. Eschenbach
M3 Baltimore. Zinman (IIRC)
M3 Pittsburgh. ?

M6 Carnegie Mellon Student Orchestra

M7 Pittsburgh. Mariss Jansons

M8 National Symphony Orchestra. ?

M9 National Symphony Orchestra. James Conlon

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: stingo on May 15, 2014, 04:25:10 AM
Mine would be

1, 3-8, Das Lied: Philadelphia Orchestra, various conductors
9: Utah Symphony, Keith Lockhart - his final performance as the orchestra's music director

2: Philadelphia Orchestra, Nezet-Seguin this coming season will round out my live Mahler concert going.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2014, 04:39:20 AM
Listening to Lenny's live recording of the Fifth with the Wieners, I feel I could be in danger of becoming a Maniac . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on May 21, 2014, 07:25:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2014, 04:39:20 AM
I feel I could be in danger of becoming a Maniac . . . .

Maybe in Boston where the standards are substantially lower than NY, Atlanta and let's not forget California.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on May 21, 2014, 08:01:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2014, 04:39:20 AM
Listening to Lenny's live recording of the Fifth with the Wieners, I feel I could be in danger of becoming a Maniac . . . .
Splendid!
I think I'll give Chailly's recording a spin later today. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: snyprrr on May 24, 2014, 07:20:12 AM
Am I ready for Mahler?

I tried him back in my DSCH days, and, of course, liked DSCH better. I had the old (Walter?) Sony 6th, the classic EMI 5th with that British conductor,... but, mm, I never really got into Mahler. Right now I'd be more interested in any particular recording that gives me something special... I guess I'd go back and try 6 again?

I loved how No.1 was used in Caan's film 'The Gambler', but it's slower there than any recording I've found.

So, if there was only one Mahler recording for snyprrr, what would you recommend?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: ibanezmonster on May 24, 2014, 07:26:15 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 24, 2014, 07:20:12 AM
So, if there was only one Mahler recording for snyprrr, what would you recommend?
All of them. I'm sure you have the time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2014, 08:04:01 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 24, 2014, 07:20:12 AMI had the old (Walter?) Sony 6th the classic EMI 5th with that British conductor

Not Walter's 6th...no such thing. He didn't like it, didn't record it. I don't think he ever conducted it.

Quote from: snyprrr on May 24, 2014, 07:20:12 AM
So, if there was only one Mahler recording for snyprrr, what would you re
commend?

Klemperer's 7th. Try the middle movements (Nachtmusik I, Scherzo, Nacthmusiik II). Some seriously weird stuff going on there, Mahler's and Klemperer's  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on May 24, 2014, 09:00:12 AM
Bernstein's Sony 4th is the one that opened the floodgates for me. But, other 4ths like Szell or Kletzki probably would have done the same.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 24, 2014, 09:14:49 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 24, 2014, 07:20:12 AM
Am I ready for Mahler?

I tried him back in my DSCH days, and, of course, liked DSCH better. I had the old (Walter?) Sony 6th, the classic EMI 5th with that British conductor,... but, mm, I never really got into Mahler. Right now I'd be more interested in any particular recording that gives me something special... I guess I'd go back and try 6 again?

I loved how No.1 was used in Caan's film 'The Gambler', but it's slower there than any recording I've found.

So, if there was only one Mahler recording for snyprrr, what would you recommend?
I always thought of you as a Bruckner sort of guy. Is that strange? I might try #2 with Abbado and the Lucerne forces. You can get a sense of it here:
http://www.youtube.com/v/KSGRSU0S3_0
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on May 24, 2014, 09:35:35 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 24, 2014, 09:14:49 AM
I always thought of you as a Bruckner sort of guy. Is that strange? I might try #2 with Abbado and the Lucerne forces. You can get a sense of it here:


Just curious, was this the one Papy Oli found dull?  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Papy Oli on May 24, 2014, 09:47:23 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 24, 2014, 09:35:35 AM
Just curious, was this the one Papy Oly found dull?  :D

Dull would still be too complimentory a word....in my opinion of course   ;)




Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Papy Oli on May 24, 2014, 09:52:34 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 24, 2014, 07:20:12 AM
So, if there was only one Mahler recording for snyprrr, what would you recommend?

I'll bite for 3 :

Mahler 4th with Reiner / Della Casa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVDwcj4lZR0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVDwcj4lZR0)

Mahler 5th - Tennstedt Live 1988
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H57VKzHVQpI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H57VKzHVQpI)


bonus : Mahler 1st - last mvt with Maazel / VPO :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1eGoWoNMMU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1eGoWoNMMU)

8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Brahmsian on May 24, 2014, 09:53:40 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on May 24, 2014, 09:47:23 AM
Dull would still be too complimentory a word....in my opinion of course   ;)

:D  Oh, and I've amended my spelling mistake on Oli, Olivier.  :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2014, 10:50:35 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 24, 2014, 09:14:49 AMI might try #2 with Abbado and the Lucerne forces. You can get a sense of it here:

Of course you'd recommend the one I absolutely hate  8)  We're still batting a 1000, Neal  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: snyprrr on May 25, 2014, 10:36:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2014, 08:04:01 AM
Not Walter's 6th...no such thing. He didn't like it, didn't record it. I don't think he ever conducted it.

Klemperer's 7th. Try the middle movements (Nachtmusik I, Scherzo, Nacthmusiik II). Some seriously weird stuff going on there, Mahler's and Klemperer's  8)

Sarge

1) Whatever the Sony cheapie of No.6 was (back in the day) SuperDuperSaver?

2) Listened a bit (is every movement 20mins.????  :laugh:)- sounds like primal Schnittke to me- a bit more polite, but definitely I get the feeling Mahler's trying to be 'ironic'- playing 'normal' music and 'doing things' to it. 6-7 seem to be the axis of darkness? And 10? Of course, I can't tell what is Mahler and what is Klemperer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 25, 2014, 10:48:22 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on May 24, 2014, 09:47:23 AM
Dull would still be too complimentory a word....in my opinion of course   ;)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2014, 10:50:35 AM
Of course you'd recommend the one I absolutely hate  8)  We're still batting a 1000, Neal  ;D

Sarge
Dull!?!? Hate!?!?! I think we live in parallel universes, because I find it among the few that captures the true essence of the work. Which ones do you like?

Oh, and there is something to be said for consistency! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2014, 11:33:44 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 25, 2014, 10:48:22 AM
Dull!?!? Hate!?!?! I think we live in parallel universes, because I find it among the few that captures the true essence of the work. Which ones do you like?

I have 33 versions. Top 5 would be Kaplan/Vienna, Maazel/Vienna, Boulez/Vienna (I think I see a pattern here  ;D ) Bernstein/NY (DG), Slatkin/St.Louis.


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on May 25, 2014, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 25, 2014, 10:48:22 AM
Dull!?!? Hate!?!?! I think we live in parallel universes, because I find it among the few that captures the true essence of the work. Which ones do you like?

My top tier (out of 41) would include those :

Kaplan/Vienna
Boulez/Vienna (Live version from GMG)
Bernstein/LSO (DVD - Live in Ely Cathedral)
Ozawa/Boston
Mehta/Vienna
Klemperer / BRSO
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on May 25, 2014, 11:55:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2014, 11:33:44 AM

Slatkin/St.Louis.


hmmm, I should revisit that one. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2014, 12:15:50 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on May 25, 2014, 11:55:37 AM
hmmm, I should revisit that one.

A dark horse, for sure. Easily overlooked.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 25, 2014, 12:48:25 PM
Maybe I will get the Kaplan since you both really like that one. I could also go for the Boulez, but I would be tempting fate there I think...

I have the Bernstein DG, which is very dynamic, but his opening tempo always seems to be a bit too slow and loses momentum. But I like it nonetheless.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 25, 2014, 01:00:29 PM
Another thumbs up for the Kaplan. 
My favorite is probably Chailly on DVD (Gewandhaus) and then Lenny DG.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 25, 2014, 01:29:30 PM
Favorite M2s:

Bernstein DG
Bernstein NYPO Sony
Solti LSO
Klemperer Bayerischen Rundfunk
Abbado Chicago

[asin]B000001G96[/asin]
[asin]B005SJIP1E[/asin]
[asin]B000PMFTCW[/asin]
[asin]B00000AF4T[/asin]
[asin]B000001GY5[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2014, 12:49:42 AM
   My top three (top 2 & best SACD version) as per a few years ago in the Mahler Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html):

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/135836.jpg)
Mahler, Symphony No.2,
Boulez / WPh
DG
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EULVZ4/goodmusicguide-20)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/37/376590.JPG)
Mahler, Symphony No.2,
Mehta
Decca (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TEUZ/goodmusicguide-20)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/94/946181.jpg)
Mahler, Symphony No.2,
Fischer /BFO
Channel Classics SACD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000GPIBOG/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on May 26, 2014, 12:11:19 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2014, 12:49:42 AM
   My top three (top 2 & best SACD version) as per a few years ago in the Mahler Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html):

Speaking of which, any chance you'll have time to restore the remaining entries?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 27, 2014, 03:37:15 AM
Quote from: Pat B on May 26, 2014, 12:11:19 PM
Speaking of which, any chance you'll have time to restore the remaining entries?

Yes, I will... that sort of work comes in fits... but I definitely look forward to getting the remaining 9 essays up.

it's heartening, actually, even to hear interest to that end expressed! Thanks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2014, 07:41:29 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 24, 2014, 07:20:12 AM
Am I ready for Mahler?

I tried him back in my DSCH days, and, of course, liked DSCH better. I had the old (Walter?) Sony 6th, the classic EMI 5th with that British conductor,... but, mm, I never really got into Mahler. Right now I'd be more interested in any particular recording that gives me something special... I guess I'd go back and try 6 again?

I loved how No.1 was used in Caan's film 'The Gambler', but it's slower there than any recording I've found.

So, if there was only one Mahler recording for snyprrr, what would you recommend?

Sorry, seem to have bypassed Mahler and went straight to Late DSCH. :-[ :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on May 27, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
Nachtmusik II. Andante Amoroso is awesome!!!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 27, 2014, 05:16:46 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 27, 2014, 04:52:56 PM
Natchmusik II. Andante Amoroso is awesome!!!  :)

Natch.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on May 27, 2014, 05:21:44 PM
Quote from: Jay F on May 27, 2014, 05:16:46 PM
Natch.

Oops.   :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on May 28, 2014, 09:47:19 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 27, 2014, 05:21:44 PM
Oops.   :D

It is awesome, though. It's my second or third favorite movement in Mahler. The andante moderato in No. 6 is my favorite, and the two Nachtmusiks in No. 7 tie for second and third. I have no idea why people think No. 7 isn't one of Mahler's better works. I like it more than any except No. 6 (and sometimes No. 2).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on May 30, 2014, 10:52:29 PM
I have been paying homage to M1 this week. Today:

Mahler: Symphony No 1    Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich/Zinman

[asin] B000MNP2Y4[/asin]

I had not heard Zinman's Mahler before so I approached this recording with trepidation as I had read some pretty mixed reviews (about the cycle). From a sound perspective I was very impressed - clear and crisp, but still embedded with warmth. I need to hear it over again, but it came across as an extremely competent and well defined recording. In terms of performance it was perhaps a bit more technical than passionate ( I prefer the latter in Mahler), but these are just simple impressions of his M1.  What is the general view of Zinman's Mahler cycle here at GMG? As it ended I was severely tempted to listen to it again...

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 31, 2014, 09:29:55 AM
I got it as it came out individually.  Some of it is meh, some very good, one is plain lousy,  and one is my favorite performance of that symphony...but I will not say which is which so you can discover and judge for yourself. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on May 31, 2014, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 31, 2014, 09:29:55 AM
I got it as it came out individually.  Some of it is meh, some very good, one is plain lousy,  and one is my favorite performance of that symphony...but I will not say which is which so you can discover and judge for yourself.

Most cycles seems to be a blend of ups and downs. No wonder the "pros" recommend building a collection of individual releases! I guess cycles just serve as a prelude to Mahler mania? However, it would be pretty sad if one's interest in Mahler declined due to a bad initial cycle exposure.....     Hmm, I doubt I will be able to ID your favorite performance? Besides, it will take years..   :D :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on June 14, 2014, 08:30:29 AM
Bumping for Herr Karl.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 17, 2014, 11:21:31 AM
Sept 2014 :

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31q7owKqw3L.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: snyprrr on June 26, 2014, 10:05:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2014, 08:04:01 AM
Not Walter's 6th...no such thing. He didn't like it, didn't record it. I don't think he ever conducted it.

Klemperer's 7th. Try the middle movements (Nachtmusik I, Scherzo, Nacthmusiik II). Some seriously weird stuff going on there, Mahler's and Klemperer's  8)

Sarge

Well, I was looking for 7ths on Amazon yesterday- just to see who/what/where/when- obviously eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody picks the pretty exact same performances. Concerning that Klemperer Scherzo- if I liked that (and I'm assuming you think it's an extreme performance?), does that mean I'm going to be disappointed by others? (this is my fear of starting out with a most extreme performance in - ehhhm- good "old" sound). I mean, in Mahler 7, if I may be bold, I'd like the kitchen sink! Sound + outrageous awesomeness- good tempo management (at least good to the ears- or whatever- you know).

I'm juuust saying- Abbado 'live' is less than $1,- maybe I need "Premium Recs" and "Budget Recs"???? hahaha!!!

I'm just not going to pay a lot for that muffler!!

So,- I must admit that when approaching Mahler I begin to get weary of Bernstein popping up all the time with unanimous TheOne&Only- I'm just saying, not that I have a problem- per se- with it, haha! But, reeeally?? no one? (no, I know everyone has a clutch of pet faves, with sound and without)


frankly, is it too much to ask to have it all in one recorded performance i n good sound? is it? really? it's just madness!!!!


at this point I will believe anything you say! I want TRANSCENDENCE!! RAPTURE!!!  HAPPY ENDING!!! (ok, not for Mahler!)


777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777


might as well throw a few 6s in there too


666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: snyprrr on June 26, 2014, 05:13:46 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 26, 2014, 10:05:25 AM
Well, I was looking for 7ths on Amazon yesterday- just to see who/what/where/when- obviously eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody picks the pretty exact same performances. Concerning that Klemperer Scherzo- if I liked that (and I'm assuming you think it's an extreme performance?), does that mean I'm going to be disappointed by others? (this is my fear of starting out with a most extreme performance in - ehhhm- good "old" sound). I mean, in Mahler 7, if I may be bold, I'd like the kitchen sink! Sound + outrageous awesomeness- good tempo management (at least good to the ears- or whatever- you know).

I'm juuust saying- Abbado 'live' is less than $1,- maybe I need "Premium Recs" and "Budget Recs"???? hahaha!!!

I'm just not going to pay a lot for that muffler!!

So,- I must admit that when approaching Mahler I begin to get weary of Bernstein popping up all the time with unanimous TheOne&Only- I'm just saying, not that I have a problem- per se- with it, haha! But, reeeally?? no one? (no, I know everyone has a clutch of pet faves, with sound and without)


frankly, is it too much to ask to have it all in one recorded performance i n good sound? is it? really? it's just madness!!!!


at this point I will believe anything you say! I want TRANSCENDENCE!! RAPTURE!!!  HAPPY ENDING!!! (ok, not for Mahler!)


777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777


might as well throw a few 6s in there too


666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ???

I didn't write that! :o ??? :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Ken B on June 26, 2014, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 26, 2014, 10:05:25 AM
Well, I was looking for 7ths on Amazon yesterday- just to see who/what/where/when- obviously eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody picks the pretty exact same performances. Concerning that Klemperer Scherzo- if I liked that (and I'm assuming you think it's an extreme performance?), does that mean I'm going to be disappointed by others? (this is my fear of starting out with a most extreme performance in - ehhhm- good "old" sound). I mean, in Mahler 7, if I may be bold, I'd like the kitchen sink! Sound + outrageous awesomeness- good tempo management (at least good to the ears- or whatever- you know).

I'm juuust saying- Abbado 'live' is less than $1,- maybe I need "Premium Recs" and "Budget Recs"???? hahaha!!!

I'm just not going to pay a lot for that muffler!!

So,- I must admit that when approaching Mahler I begin to get weary of Bernstein popping up all the time with unanimous TheOne&Only- I'm just saying, not that I have a problem- per se- with it, haha! But, reeeally?? no one? (no, I know everyone has a clutch of pet faves, with sound and without)


frankly, is it too much to ask to have it all in one recorded performance i n good sound? is it? really? it's just madness!!!!


at this point I will believe anything you say! I want TRANSCENDENCE!! RAPTURE!!!  HAPPY ENDING!!! (ok, not for Mahler!)


777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777


might as well throw a few 6s in there too


666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ???
FWIW my attitude to Mahler is ABB, anybody but Bernstein.  Mehta before Bernstein!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: kishnevi on June 26, 2014, 05:52:38 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 26, 2014, 05:39:11 PM
FWIW my attitude to Mahler is ABB, anybody but Bernstein.  Mehta before Bernstein!

Mehta=metaBernstein?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Ken B on June 26, 2014, 06:17:55 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 26, 2014, 05:52:38 PM
Mehta=metaBernstein?
The very thought makes me queasy.

I had Lennie NY Mahler at 17 or 18, when I suffered from Mahleria. The cure is either a surfeit of Lennie's orgasmatron mahler machine, or a strong dose of Stravinsky. I took both. But Lennie's Mahler prompts an anaphylactic response.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: snyprrr on June 26, 2014, 08:41:50 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 26, 2014, 06:17:55 PM
The very thought makes me queasy.

I had Lennie NY Mahler at 17 or 18, when I suffered from Mahleria. The cure is either a surfeit of Lennie's orgasmatron mahler machine, or a strong dose of Stravinsky. I took both. But Lennie's Mahler prompts an anaphylactic response.

that looks swollen!

seriously, I understand you're sentence better than any musical des cription. So lenny's just a wanker, like some guy playing a guitar solo with his... errrr???  It's really quite funny! :D


Quote from: Ken B on June 26, 2014, 05:39:11 PM
FWIW my attitude to Mahler is ABB, anybody but Bernstein.  Mehta before Bernstein!


My problem is- back in the day, all the different Cycles had the same "Series Covers', so, I can't remember if it was a Lenny 5, or Abbado 7, or Levine 2, cause i can't distinguish the covers. :P


I'd prefer perhaps a grotesque performance, I don't know- aye aye- help me. I mean, DDD, GreatCity Symphony Orchestra, Super Engineer, Magical Conductor, Perfect tempi, HAND CRAFTED INSTRUMENTS!!,- Lushness- Terror- Solos- Cigarette

I mean,


I mean


I'll look at some more reviews, but I'm going to need more than just a vote AGAINST Lenny!! :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 03:40:14 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 26, 2014, 08:41:50 PM
I'd prefer perhaps a grotesque performance, I don't know- aye aye- help me. I mean, DDD, GreatCity Symphony Orchestra, Super Engineer, Magical Conductor, Perfect tempi, HAND CRAFTED INSTRUMENTS!!,- Lushness- Terror- Solos- Cigarette

I mean,


I mean


I'll look at some more reviews, but I'm going to need more than just a vote AGAINST Lenny!! :laugh:

In 7 Klemperer and Bernstein are my Top 2 but you've apparently ruled them out. So, look at Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin, Boulez/Cleveland and Abbado/Chicago (his later Berlin recording is much the same as an interpretation but the Berlin Phil is no Mahler orchestra).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Jay F on June 27, 2014, 04:01:41 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 03:40:14 AM
In 7 Klemperer and Bernstein are my Top 2 but you've apparently ruled them out. So, look at Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin, Boulez/Cleveland and Abbado/Chicago (his later Berlin recording is much the same as an interpretation but the Berlin Phil is no Mahler orchestra).

Sarge

My two favorites are by Bernstein, but I also like Abbado/Chicago. I wonder, however, whether someone who doesn't like my two favorites, will like my third favorite. I also like Tilson-Thomas and Barenboim. I haven't heard Klemperer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 04:32:44 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 27, 2014, 04:01:41 AMI haven't heard Klemperer.

I don't actually recommend Klemp's M7 unless extreme interpretations interest you. His tempos are very slow. In the first movement there is essentially no difference between the Langsam introduction and the following Allegro risoluto. The orchestral execution is ragged at times. The finale is more than 24 minutes long! But his Nachtmusik I is fascinating. He makes the music sound like something from the Second Viennese dudes; could almost be Webern.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: jlaurson on June 27, 2014, 04:57:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 03:40:14 AM
In 7 Klemperer and Bernstein are my Top 2 but you've apparently ruled them out. So, look at Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin, Boulez/Cleveland and Abbado/Chicago (his later Berlin recording is much the same as an interpretation but the Berlin Phil is no Mahler orchestra).

Sarge

I disagree re: Abbado M7. Don't find the recordings all that similar and in fact the Berlin a lot better. And I think if the CSO is a Mahler orchestra, the BPh is THE Mahler orchestra. (I have data to prove it, btw... they ARE a Mahler Orchestra... the myth of them re-discovering Mahler via Barbirolli and Bernstein isn't borne out by the sheer numbers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on June 27, 2014, 05:05:51 AM
Hmm, sounds like a good idea for a new thread (if there isn't one already existing).  We often talk about which conductors seem to 'get' or are well known for their interpretations of certain composers' music, certain pieces.

Which orchestras are known for their outstanding interpretations of certain composers' music/works?  (ie. Staatskapelle Dresden - Richard Strauss), just as an example.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 07:01:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 27, 2014, 04:57:36 AM
I disagree re: Abbado M7. Don't find the recordings all that similar and in fact the Berlin a lot better.

Timings don't tell us everything, of course, or maybe even much...but just look at the first, third and fifth movements  ;D

Abbado Chicago  21:27  16:37  8:55  14:01  17:45

Abbado Berlin     21:35  15:54  8:53  12:58  17:45


I appreciate the fact that he takes more time over Nachtmusik II in Chicago.

I just spot checked the two recordings to refresh my memory. I still maintain Abbado didn't change his interpretation much overall. But I do prefer Chicago. It has more rhythmic swagger, the brass and winds sound more Mahlerian (not something I can explain but, like porn, I know it when I hear it  ;) ) And the recording is much better. It has more bite, more detail. The opening of the Berlin Rondo, for example, sounds conjested. snyprrr is concerned about getting good sound. DG was more successful in Chicago than Berlin; more successful in the studio than live.

I'm afraid this is one of the rare instances when we disagree about a Mahler recording.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2014, 07:36:06 AM
Listening to the stereo Klemp 7, first movement, for the first time.
I like this tremendously. This times out at almost 28 minutes! I think I have found my new favorite!
Finished 1. This is the very first time the closing thumps have not sounded awkward and galumphing. This is definitely the best version of that movement I have heard.

Now movement 2, also pleasingly slooooooow.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 08:15:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 04:32:44 AM
I don't actually recommend Klemp's M7 unless extreme interpretations interest you. His tempos are very slow. In the first movement there is essentially no difference between the Langsam introduction and the following Allegro risoluto. The orchestral execution is ragged at times. The finale is more than 24 minutes long! But his Nachtmusik I is fascinating. He makes the music sound like something from the Second Viennese dudes; could almost be Webern.

Sarge

See? But after listening to that Klemp/Nacht1 and liking it- how am I NOT going to be disappointed by anything less? I mean, I now think this is the way the music is supposed to sound- and I would be demanding 'extremity' here. Ugh, see what the problem is? As soon as someone gets "good sound" they get all coy and scared to make rude sounds. CALL THE WAAAAH-MBULANCE!!!

Plus that review for Abbado 'live' said the Nachts were soooooo mysterious. HOW am I supposed to recover from that??? (did I mention it was $1?)


aye aye aye


But- what Mahler has exotic instruments? I know there's the cowbell in 7. Waaah, I'm starting to confuse myself.... oxygfen.... need.... oxygen....



I have a mental block right now. I ASSUMED that there would be just as many NEW DDD AWESOME recordings of Mahler like there are for DSCH (competing RattlevsJansons and such), but it seems as though it's STILL the "same old classics" here. ok, I'm going to hold my breath and see if anything happens.... hold on.



Nope, that didn't work. :(


How am I going to forget the Klempster? sarge, I will look into those other two...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 08:22:55 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2014, 07:36:06 AM
Listening to the stereo Klemp 7, first movement, for the first time.
I like this tremendously. This times out at almost 28 minutes! I think I have found my new favorite!

If you're serious (and why wouldn't you be  ;D ) that makes, worldwide...let me count again now, make sure I have it right...yes, that makes two of us who claim Klemp as their favorite!  8)

The real challenge, though, is the fifth movement Rondo. If you can make it through that...

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2014, 08:33:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 08:22:55 AM
If you're serious (and why wouldn't you be  ;D ) that makes, worldwide...let me count again now, make sure I have it right...yes, that makes two of us who claim Klemp as their favorite!  8)

The real challenge, though, is the fifth movement Rondo. If you can make it through that...

Sarge
I will get to the rondo, ... eventually.
I am perfectly serious. I am generally slow as a mental conductor, and like late Klemp a lot partly because he is slow. Now I am tempted to get the Klemp Mahler box. Like I need more boxes, discs, or Mahler. But this is really quite revelatory so far. The only Klemp Mahler I know is das Lied.

We need a thread for cheers for conductors.

Who do we want? KLEMPERER!
When do we want him? IN HIS OWN SWEET TIME!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 08:38:01 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 08:15:24 AM
Plus that review for Abbado 'live' said the Nachts were soooooo mysterious. HOW am I supposed to recover from that??? (did I mention it was $1?)

Jens thinks it pretty special too ("Those middle movements have never sounded better; the nightscape of movements two and four has never been evoked more realistically, tenderly, movingly. It is better even than Bernstein (either on Sony or live on DG, both with the New York Philharmonic) in that regard. There is much more mist over that midnight lake and the tempi are steadier.".--from his WETA Mahler survey)  Like I said, I still prefer Chicago but if you can get Berlin for buck? Go for it.

Quote
But- what Mahler has exotic instruments? I know there's the cowbell in 7. Waaah, I'm starting to confuse myself.... oxygfen.... need.... oxygen....

The Seventh has mandolin and guitar.

Quote
How am I going to forget the Klempster? sarge,

You aren't. It's in your bones now. You're doomed  >:D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2014, 08:39:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 08:38:01 AM
Jens thinks it pretty special too ("Those middle movements have never sounded better; the nightscape of movements two and four has never been evoked more realistically, tenderly, movingly. It is better even than Bernstein (either on Sony or live on DG, both with the New York Philharmonic) in that regard. There is much more mist over that midnight lake and the tempi are steadier.".--from his WETA Mahler survey)  Like I said, I still prefer Chicago but if you can get Berlin for buck? Go for it.

The Seventh has mandolin and guitar.

You aren't. It's in your bones now. You're doomed  >:D

Sarge

The bells in 7 sound like guitar.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 08:42:59 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 27, 2014, 08:33:09 AM
Who do we want? KLEMPERER!
When do we want him? IN HIS OWN SWEET TIME!

;D :D ;D

I'll be back later with some comments on Klemp's Mahler tempos (he's often on the swift side actually). But I must feed Mrs. Rock now.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 27, 2014, 09:06:49 AM
FWIW I am with Jens on Abbado v Abbado.  Second favorite after Abbado Berlin is MTT, followed by (truly a dark horse!) Gergiev.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Brahmsian on June 27, 2014, 09:29:24 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 08:15:24 AM
See? But after listening to that Klemp/Nacht1 and liking it

It is all irrelevant, because although Symphony No. 7 Nachtmusik I is truly great, Nachtmusik II eats Nacht I for breakfast!  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 09:58:20 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 27, 2014, 09:06:49 AM
FWIW I am with Jens on Abbado v Abbado.  Second favorite after Abbado Berlin is MTT, followed by (truly a dark horse!) Gergiev.

We have absolutely nothing in common, Mahler-wise  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2014, 10:18:21 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 09:58:20 AM
We have absolutely nothing in common, Mahler-wise  ;D

Sarge
It's terrifying how wrong one man can be isn't it? Now I am worried about letting Jeffrey out in traffic unsupervised.  :) 8) ??? 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 27, 2014, 10:52:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 08:22:55 AM
If you're serious (and why wouldn't you be  ;D ) that makes, worldwide...let me count again now, make sure I have it right...yes, that makes two of us who claim Klemp as their favorite!  8)

The real challenge, though, is the fifth movement Rondo. If you can make it through that...

I don't have a favorite right now (the others I own are Barenboim and Bernstein/Sony) but I do enjoy Klemperer. I would generally recommend it to someone who already has other recordings, or to anybody with a penchant for slowness (which I don't, but I also don't have an aversion to it).

Haven't heard Abbado yet, but I have the BPO one on order and the CSO one on hold at the library.

Ken, if you don't have Klemperer's 2, then his set is well worth getting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted 7th FINAL PREP!!!!!!!MASUR????
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 01:00:32 PM
Just some final 7th research yielded the Masur with the Gewandhaus (Berlin)- this would interest me, but surely the sound isn't transcendent?

So, and there ARE budgets here to consider-

1) Abbado/Berlin

2) MTT (which one?)

3) Masur

4) I think Levine is coming to the library



Unless Masur trumps Abbado, it looks like he'll be My First 7th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted ((( SYMPHONY NO.7)))
Post by: Jay F on June 27, 2014, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 27, 2014, 07:01:07 AM
Timings don't tell us everything, of course, or maybe even much...but just look at the first, third and fifth movements  ;D

Abbado Chicago  21:27  16:37  8:55  14:01  17:45

Abbado Berlin     21:35  15:54  8:53  12:58  17:45


I appreciate the fact that he takes more time over Nachtmusik II in Chicago.

I just spot checked the two recordings to refresh my memory. I still maintain Abbado didn't change his interpretation much overall. But I do prefer Chicago. It has more rhythmic swagger, the brass and winds sound more Mahlerian (not something I can explain but, like porn, I know it when I hear it  ;) ) And the recording is much better. It has more bite, more detail. The opening of the Berlin Rondo, for example, sounds conjested. snyprrr is concerned about getting good sound. DG was more successful in Chicago than Berlin; more successful in the studio than live.

I'm afraid this is one of the rare instances when we disagree about a Mahler recording.

Sarge

Agreed, Sarge. I play Abbado's Chicago M7 regularly, after all these years. I listened to it a number of times this week. The Berlin version, I let a friend "borrow" that one a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted 7th FINAL PREP!!!!!!!MASUR????
Post by: Jay F on June 27, 2014, 01:57:26 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 01:00:32 PM

2) MTT (which one?)

I only have the SACD from the San Francisco Symphony. It's one of my favorites.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted 7th FINAL PREP!!!!!!!MASUR????
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 03:18:32 PM
Quote from: Jay F on June 27, 2014, 01:57:26 PM
I only have the SACD from the San Francisco Symphony. It's one of my favorites.

"They're" saying the London is TheOne

Any word on Masur? My M6 quest turns into a pumpkim at midnight! :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 27, 2014, 04:16:40 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 26, 2014, 05:39:11 PM
FWIW my attitude to Mahler is ABB, anybody but Bernstein.   

Love my Bernstein.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted 7th FINAL PREP!!!!!!!MASUR????
Post by: Jay F on June 27, 2014, 06:25:52 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 27, 2014, 03:18:32 PM
"They're" saying the London is TheOne
Buy both. Let "us" know.

QuoteAny word on Masur? My M6 quest turns into a pumpkim at midnight! :o
I've never heard his Mahler. Not a note.

I like Bernstein's M6 on Sony. But you don't want Bernstein. You lose.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted 7th FINAL PREP!!!!!!!MASUR????
Post by: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:24:41 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 27, 2014, 06:25:52 PM
Buy both. Let "us" know.
I've never heard his Mahler. Not a note.

I like Bernstein's M6 on Sony. But you don't want Bernstein. You lose.

Actually,  Bernstein 6 on SONY is only 50 cents!


I DID pull the plug on Abbado/Berlin 7- and the "veiled sonority of the orchestra" is what ultimately swayed me- I guess I thought I'd get more 'mystery' here? Anyhow, again, it was 5 cents (but always with that wonderful $4 S+H).


I'm not saying I will only spend pennies, though, in the 6th it is Boulez who is going for pennies-


Can I get a completely BIZARRE 6th? (or-is that Lenny?) Ridiculous? Sarge- the 6th here is something I'd be willing to try any outrageous recording, maybe the more feral the better? With the 7th I think I'd want 'lush', but with the 6th, 'insane, raw, scraping,feral'.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:35:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2014, 08:04:01 AM
Not Walter's 6th...no such thing. He didn't like it, didn't record it. I don't think he ever conducted it.
Sarge

It was Szell that I had in 6 on the cheap SONY. I can't remember the performance but I'm pretty sure it was acquired through Penguin Guide strong arm tactics (their top recommends). But a lot of reviews find Szell to zippy or something, not smelling the dying roses?


I did get Abbado/Berlin for 7 (only 5 cents, can't blame me there, haha!), but I'm stuck on 6. I really want something horribly terrifying or shocking or something- maybe it IS Lenny SONY? (though his DG gets the "one of a kind" sticker)


I'm sorry I'm being such a pain, but economic collapse is right around the corner and I NEED soundtrack material! NOW!!!






But seriously- I get soooo tired of endless amazon review pages just saying BernsteinBernsteinBernstein- but maybe once I get over this mental block I'll fall right in line.




Segerstam 6 ??? Jarvi ??? (the strangest and the fastest?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2014, 08:57:33 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:35:54 AM
It was Szell that I had in 6 on the cheap SONY. I can't remember the performance but I'm pretty sure it was acquired through Penguin Guide strong arm tactics (their top recommends). But a lot of reviews find Szell to zippy or something, not smelling the dying roses?


Szell's Sixth is one of my Top 3. It's partly nostalgic (it's a live recording and I was in the audience) but mostly because it's so different than my other favorites (Bernstein DG, Solti/Chicago, Chailly/Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Karajan/Berlin, Eschenbach/Philly). It's fast and Classically restrained...until the end. But that restraint makes the final catastrophe even more chilling. It's downright scary.

Quote from: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:35:54 AM
I did get Abbado/Berlin for 7 (only 5 cents, can't blame me there, haha!), but I'm stuck on 6. I really want something horribly terrifying or shocking or something- maybe it IS Lenny SONY? (though his DG gets the "one of a kind" sticker)

If you are going to get a Bernstein M6, get the DG. It seems to me it's everything you want: terrifying, shocking But have you considered Solti? That's my desert island Sixth. No one launches the first movement coda with such a bang: the agogic distortion, Solti's slight hesitation, his holding the orchestra in check (lasts only a fraction of a second) before releasing his forces in a pure explosion of joy, is just breathtaking. Almost every other conductor just plows straight into the coda.


Quote from: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:35:54 AM
But seriously- I get soooo tired of endless amazon review pages just saying BernsteinBernsteinBernstein...

Then go for Solti. I think it's terrific.



Quote from: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:35:54 AM
Segerstam 6 ??? Jarvi ??? (the strangest and the fastest?)

The strangest M6 is probably Chailly. As slow as Barbirolli in the first movement but zombie-like. Most of the emotion has been drained, leaving nothing but stark grimness. It's like hearing the walking dead  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Jay F on June 28, 2014, 12:21:04 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2014, 08:57:33 AMBut have you considered Solti? That's my desert island Sixth. No one launches the first movement coda with such a bang: the agogic distortion, Solti's slight hesitation, his holding the orchestra in check (lasts only a fraction of second) before releasing his forces in a pure explosion of joy, is just breathtaking. Almost every other conductor just plows straight into the coda.

Then go for Solti. I think it's terrific.

Thanks, Sarge. I haven't had Solti's Sixth on CD. I used to love his Fifth and Sixth on LP. So, I just ordered the box set on AM. "Like New" for $36 in the fatboy packaging, which I really prefer.

And thanks to you, too, Snyprrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, for bringing it up.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2014, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2014, 08:57:33 AM

Szell's Sixth is one of my Top 3. It's partly nostalgic (it's a live recording and I was in the audience) but mostly because it's so different than my other favorites (Bernstein DG, Solti/Chicago, Chailly/Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Karajan/Berlin, Eschenbach/Philly). It's fast and Classically restrained...until the end. But that restraint makes the final catastrophe even more chilling. It's downright scary.

If you are going to get a Bernstein M6, get the DG. It seems to me it's everything you want: terrifying, shocking But have you considered Solti? That's my desert island Sixth. No one launches the first movement coda with such a bang: the agogic distortion, Solti's slight hesitation, his holding the orchestra in check (lasts only a fraction of second) before releasing his forces in a pure explosion of joy, is just breathtaking. Almost every other conductor just plows straight into the coda.


Then go for Solti. I think it's terrific.



The strangest M6 is probably Chailly. As slow as Barbirolli in the first movement but zombie-like. Most of the emotion has been drained, leaving nothing but stark grimness. It's like hearing the walking dead  ;D

Sarge

Chailly is my go to guy for Mahler in general. I begin to suspect he ought to be my go to guy period, since I have yet to hear one weak performance. Pricey most of the time though.  :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2014, 04:21:27 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 28, 2014, 01:42:29 PM
Chailly is my go to guy for Mahler in general.

If I had to choose just one Mahler cycle, I'd choose Chailly too. More hits than misses (only 2 disappoints but not seriously so).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2014, 04:37:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2014, 04:21:27 AM
If I had to choose just one Mahler cycle, I'd choose Chailly too. More hits than misses (only 2 disappoints but not seriously so).

Sarge

What are the misses, Sarge? I've only heard the 8th from the Chailly set, which I own and yes I'm a fan of the 8th. How's the 9th, 4th and 7th? These would be the ones that would interest me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2014, 04:42:01 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2014, 04:37:26 AM
What are the misses, Sarge? I've only heard the 8th from the Chailly set, which I own and yes I'm a fan of the 8th. How's the 9th, 4th and 7th? These would be the ones that would interest me.

Only 2 disappoints me. The "Totenfeier" is, relative to my favorites, understated.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Brahmsian on June 29, 2014, 04:59:10 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2014, 04:37:26 AM
What are the misses, Sarge? I've only heard the 8th from the Chailly set, which I own and yes I'm a fan of the 8th. How's the 9th, 4th and 7th? These would be the ones that would interest me.

Tennstedt/LPO studio has apparently, a great performance of the 8th.  I love Tennstedt's Mahler, but unfortunately can't stand the 8th symphony.  :P  I'm still looking for a performance without words, or a reconstructed version that has an orchestral prelude to it?   :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 06:46:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2014, 04:42:01 AM
Only 2 disappoints me. The "Totenfeier" is, relative to my favorites, understated.

Sarge
As I recall, it's been a while, yeah that was not as good as some other versions. But it isn't bad.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 07:22:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2014, 08:57:33 AM

Szell's Sixth is one of my Top 3. It's partly nostalgic (it's a live recording and I was in the audience) but mostly because it's so different than my other favorites (Bernstein DG, Solti/Chicago, Chailly/Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Karajan/Berlin, Eschenbach/Philly). It's fast and Classically restrained...until the end. But that restraint makes the final catastrophe even more chilling. It's downright scary.

If you are going to get a Bernstein M6, get the DG. It seems to me it's everything you want: terrifying, shocking But have you considered Solti? That's my desert island Sixth. No one launches the first movement coda with such a bang: the agogic distortion, Solti's slight hesitation, his holding the orchestra in check (lasts only a fraction of a second) before releasing his forces in a pure explosion of joy, is just breathtaking. Almost every other conductor just plows straight into the coda.


Then go for Solti. I think it's terrific.



The strangest M6 is probably Chailly. As slow as Barbirolli in the first movement but zombie-like. Most of the emotion has been drained, leaving nothing but stark grimness. It's like hearing the walking dead  ;D

Sarge

See? Now you've sold me on Chailly for 6. Walking Dead? Grim? YES PLEASE!!! flippin expensive though




The Solti reviews scared me! :o They definitely said he just massacres the piece from front to back, never letting up. At first I was put off, but then the Abuse side of my mind kicked in and thought the Punishment would be good for me!!

Lenny also gets marks for being slam-bang.

But when you mention Zombies- I'd throw all that Maaadness out the window for some Zombie. Would you say Chailly is, inversely, to the 6th what Klemp is to the 7th? (if not, who's the Klemp/anti-Klemp in the 6th?)

For Prokofiev 5 I NEEDED M.O.R. (I sit up at night thinking, "Sarge called me MOR!")- but, for DSCH 8, or Mahler 6, I want that Sanderling 15/Klemperer 7 treatment- fast or slow, it doesn't matter,- as long as the graveyard is in full view! For Prokofiev 5 I want sheen sheen sheen, but for DSCH8/Mahler6 I want to hear string snapping and brass chocking and percussion death and all manner of grave sounds.

Frankly, I was going to go for Sinopoli in 6 (which I would think would be lush, contradicting my own desires), but I heard a sample of his 2 and the DG sound seemed to have "THAT" DG digital sound that we all complain about (I could be wrong). What's good about Sinopoli?


You had me at "zombie"!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 29, 2014, 07:41:02 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 07:22:59 AM
The Solti reviews scared me! :o They definitely said he just massacres the piece from front to back, never letting up.

Yes, he's unrelenting.

Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 07:22:59 AM
But when you mention Zombies- I'd throw all that Maaadness out the window for some Zombie. Would you say Chailly is, inversely, to the 6th what Klemp is to the 7th? (if not, who's the Klemp/anti-Klemp in the 6th?)

In fact I've suggested that somewhere in these threads: that if Klemp had recorded the Sixth late in his career it would have sounded like Chailly's.

Quote from: snyprrr on June 29, 2014, 07:22:59 AM
Frankly, I was going to go for Sinopoli in 6 (which I would think would be lush, contradicting my own desires), but I heard a sample of his 2 and the DG sound seemed to have "THAT" DG digital sound that we all complain about (I could be wrong). What's good about Sinopoli?

A monumental, over-the-top Andante...which many hate:

(Sinopoli delivers an Andante that seems to go on for ever, more the hothouse of Wagner's Tristan than the simple song without words of Mahler's maturity. --Tony Dugan)


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 07:49:32 AM
 Let me toss in a very good word for Abravanel, which I am currently listening to. Radically anti-Bernstein. Clean, swift, structural. Alas the orchestra makes some errors in intonation. But as a reading it's splendid.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: jlaurson on June 30, 2014, 12:59:32 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:35:54 AM

... but I'm stuck on 6. I really want something horribly terrifying or shocking or something- maybe it IS Lenny SONY? (though his DG gets the "one of a kind" sticker)


What you want is Barbirolli!!! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001EC6JOE/nectarandambr-20) Try to get it in an edition where the Scherzo comes before the Andante. That's not how he recorded it, or wanted it, but the engineers overruled him at the time... and although that's hard to swallow... I think they are right. The effect you want can ONLY be reached if the Andante comes before the finale... that way, dramaturgically, it's STRAIGHT LEFT to the face. HOOKED RIGHT on the smacker. dainty dancing steps to lull you into security... and then SMASHING YOU THREE* TIMES INTO THE GROUND WITH AN IRON FOLDING CHAIR.

(Trying to write in a way you will understand. Caps and excitement and all.  ;) )

Zander II (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006FSR9?ie=UTF8&tag=weta909-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00006FSR9) would be an excellent option, too... in better sound than Barbirolli... and a little fleeter but just as brutal.

Mahler Survey No.6 isn't restored yet, I'm afraid... otherwise you might have had something to read there.

Szell is not what you want. Bernstein II more like it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 08:07:45 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 30, 2014, 12:59:32 AM
What you want is Barbirolli!!! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001EC6JOE/nectarandambr-20) Try to get it in an edition where the Scherzo comes before the Andante. That's not how he recorded it, or wanted it, but the engineers overruled him at the time... and although that's hard to swallow... I think they are right. The effect you want can ONLY be reached if the Andante comes before the finale... that way, dramaturgically, it's STRAIGHT LEFT to the face. HOOKED RIGHT on the smacker. dainty dancing steps to lull you into security... and then SMASHING YOU THREE* TIMES INTO THE GROUND WITH AN IRON FOLDING CHAIR.

(Trying to write in a way you will understand. Caps and excitement and all.  ;) )

Zander II (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006FSR9?ie=UTF8&tag=weta909-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00006FSR9) would be an excellent option, too... in better sound than Barbirolli... and a little fleeter but just as brutal.

Mahler Survey No.6 isn't restored yet, I'm afraid... otherwise you might have had something to read there.

Szell is not what you want. Bernstein II more like it.
I understand! ;)


btw- I got Levine 7 from the library- but- is it too 'beautiful'????
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted AM I READY FOR MAHLER YET?
Post by: Drasko on June 30, 2014, 08:33:16 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 30, 2014, 08:07:45 AM
btw- I got Levine 7 from the library- but- is it too 'beautiful'????

Nobody ever accused Scherchen of being beautiful, though at least some of it is down to orchestra. Try him:

http://www.youtube.com/v/O5c_l87KfFk

Or if that is too rough and ready for you try Gielen.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 30, 2014, 11:02:11 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 29, 2014, 07:49:32 AM
Let me toss in a very good word for Abravanel, which I am currently listening to. Radically anti-Bernstein. Clean, swift, structural. Alas the orchestra makes some errors in intonation. But as a reading it's splendid.

Seconded. The Utah Symphony is short in numbers, but they often make points in individuality when pitted against the slicker, bigger ensembles.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 30, 2014, 11:08:26 AM
Milos, is that the MCA version with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2014, 11:27:25 AM
What 9th recordings (interpretations) are similar to Boulez? I've passed on Bernstein's and Karajan, perhaps I don't like Mahler being overly Romantic? I'm not sure, but anyway thank you in advance for any recs.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 30, 2014, 12:26:51 PM
Non-romantic 9ths: Leopold Ludwig LSO, Klemperer, NPO, Bertini BBCSO, Abravanel Utah SO, Ancerl CzPO. All are more interesting than Boulez.

EDIT: I didn't mean Bertini, but MADERNA  :-X
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2014, 12:30:15 PM
Quote from: André on June 30, 2014, 12:26:51 PM
Non-romantic 9ths: Leopold Ludwig LSO, Klemperer, NPO, Bertini BBCSO, Abravanel Utah SO, Ancerl CzPO. All are more interesting than Boulez.

That's what I was looking for, André. Thanks, friend!
I'll search for those on Internet radios to get a sample.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on June 30, 2014, 12:56:03 PM
Quote from: André on June 30, 2014, 11:08:26 AM
Milos, is that the MCA version with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra ?

Yes it is. Westminster studio recording, later on MCA CD or DG/Westminster reissue. Dated recording, tentative playing from smallish sounding orchestra but still I like it, probably irrationally. I find certain The Third Man post war Vienna mystique about it.

Quote from: André on June 30, 2014, 12:26:51 PM
Non-romantic 9ths: Leopold Ludwig LSO, Klemperer, NPO, Bertini BBCSO, Abravanel Utah SO, Ancerl CzPO. All are more interesting than Boulez.

I'll second the Ancerl/CzPO.     
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2014, 01:01:20 PM
Sampling Ludwig/LSO's 9th right now, this is sounding mighty fine. Although searching on Amazon I only came across a used disc for $45 or a CD-R from Everest Records for $9.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 30, 2014, 01:46:57 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2014, 11:27:25 AM
What 9th recordings (interpretations) are similar to Boulez? I've passed on Bernstein's and Karajan, perhaps I don't like Mahler being overly Romantic? I'm not sure, but anyway thank you in advance for any recs.
Abravanel for sure. I don't think it is one of the best in his cycle -- those would be 7, 6, 4 -- but it is cool and more interested in inner voices than most.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2014, 01:59:44 PM
Thank you Drasko (welcome back, btw) and Mr. Nyman for the additional recs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 30, 2014, 02:23:55 PM
Scherchen's 7th is the bee's knees, warts and all. Go for it !

The Ludwig 9th may appear from time to time on cheapo issues. I paid mine 5$. Just wait for some Everest sale, it shouldn't be far in the future. Sound is somewhat up close and unrefined, but it fits the performance - direct, unfussy and mightily dramatic in the right places. Above all, it has that "coming home" feeling that an arch-like structure gives and that is often missed when the movements are individually characterized. Ancerl has the same type of bluntness and directness., while putting much feeiling in the adagio episodes.

Maderna's is probably the most singular account of them all. Among the BBC Legends cohort it deserves to be singled out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 30, 2014, 02:58:42 PM
Quote from: Drasko on June 30, 2014, 12:56:03 PM
I find certain The Third Man post war Vienna mystique about it.

I haven't listened to it yet (currently have Haitink's Chicago 3 on) but what an intriguing description!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 30, 2014, 03:01:10 PM
Quote from: André on June 30, 2014, 12:26:51 PM
Non-romantic 9ths: Leopold Ludwig LSO, Klemperer, NPO, Bertini BBCSO, Abravanel Utah SO, Ancerl CzPO. All are more interesting than Boulez.

EDIT: I didn't mean Bertini, but MADERNA  :-X

I will second the Klemperer. Also, I think Haitink/Conc'bouw might fit the bill, but it's been a long time since I heard it.

Quote from: André on June 30, 2014, 02:23:55 PM
Maderna's is probably the most singular account of them all. Among the BBC Legends cohort it deserves to be singled out.

Lots of people say this, without saying why it's so singular. Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on June 30, 2014, 05:21:40 PM
Quote from: Velimir on June 30, 2014, 03:01:10 PM
Lots of people say this, without saying why it's so singular. Care to elaborate?
I'm not Andre, but as someone who raves about the Maderna I can try...

It's probably not the easiest recording to describe in broad brush strokes, because in many ways it's an interpretation of opposites. The first movement is all extremes, slow tempi for the most part with sudden accelerandi that decay over the subsequent pages. The inner movements are ferocious, yet the "preview of the finale" section in the Rondo-Burleske is very carefully paced to mirror the tempi used for similar material in the finale (there are a lot of little details like that which I didn't pick up on first hearing).

But just as it seems like this is an interpretation that's heavily focused on the Romantic side of the work, the finale is surprisingly swift and light. In the closing pages Maderna lets the speed drop dramatically, which I find extremely effective but I am not sure everyone would. (Emotionally restrained, yet still thoroughly cathartic, perhaps?)

Basically, there's nothing like it, and it's the sort of recording you'll probably either love or hate. It, much like Maderna himself, isn't very interested in the safe middle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 30, 2014, 05:51:56 PM
This is very well put.

The crux of this reading lies in the Finale, which, much to my surprise, sounds hugely effective at that flowing tempo. Maderna's is a very volatile, 'of the moment' interpretation. It is anything but heart-on-sleeve. The ninth can sound like a beautiful eulogy, a very elegant musical corpse. Here it is alive to many moods and situations. Contorted, colourful and slightly neurotic like those Klimt pictures, but at the same time very organic and organized. Disturbing but convincing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 30, 2014, 07:45:17 PM
What thinkst thou, worthy gentleman, of Messers Bertini and Zander?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 01, 2014, 01:19:49 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2014, 11:27:25 AM
What 9th recordings (interpretations) are similar to Boulez? I've passed on Bernstein's and Karajan, perhaps I don't like Mahler being overly Romantic? I'm not sure, but anyway thank you in advance for any recs.

Depends on what you find particular about Boulez. For one, except for the finale, Boulez is average to slightly above (or rather below ... i.e. longer) average with his timings/tempi... He's got clarity and purpose, but it's not actually cold. (Though not as far from the stereotype as his warm-blooded excellent Fifth.)

From:
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 2) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html)

QuotePierre Boulez' first movement has the enthralling element in common with Ančerl, his inner movements are pleasantly ambiguous: not at all the stereotype of scorn and satire. The Chicago Symphony plays splendidly under Boulez, which is to say: with all its usual glory, except also tasteful. Unfortunately Boulez' last movement goes a little too far in avoiding stereotypes: at just over 21 minutes the 'sublime arc' becomes a breezy affair, there is no danger of it ever collapsing and consequently no stirring relieve afterwards, when it hasn't.

I second Maderna and Ančerl as very fine 9th... esp. Ančerl.
Ozawa/Saito Kinen (Philips) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0002ZEZRM?ie=UTF8&tag=weta909-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B0002ZEZRM) might fall into that category...

Abbado III (Berlin) is not dissimilar, except less interesting in just about every respect.

(See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html))
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 02, 2014, 12:41:49 PM
Don't know if yall are familiar with Uri Caine's Mahler reinterpetations, such  klezmer versions of the first movement 5th Symphony and third movement of the First. 

https://www.youtube.com/v/urtnR6iFDpE

https://www.youtube.com/v/x3efe-G2mxo
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on July 08, 2014, 12:01:24 PM
I have been listening to Mahler heavily for nearly the past year. I started with 4, then, per suggestions here, I took my time listening to the others nearly in order (with most of the song cycles mixed in early on). I'm happy with that approach as most of the symphonies took multiple listens to really appreciate. I'm still not quite there with 8 and DLVDE. But this afternoon I think I will listen to 9 for the first time.

It has been a wonderful journey. I can't help but feel a twinge of sadness.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on July 08, 2014, 12:23:43 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 08, 2014, 12:01:24 PM
I have been listening to Mahler heavily for nearly the past year. I started with 4, then, per suggestions here, I took my time listening to the others nearly in order (with most of the song cycles mixed in early on). I'm happy with that approach as most of the symphonies took multiple listens to really appreciate. I'm still not quite there with 8 and DLVDE. But this afternoon I think I will listen to 9 for the first time.

It has been a wonderful journey. I can't help but feel a twinge of sadness.

But now you can start over from the beginning....    :)

In retrospect, do you still feel that M4 was the best gateway to Mahler's symphonies?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on July 08, 2014, 01:29:55 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 08, 2014, 12:01:24 PM
I have been listening to Mahler heavily for nearly the past year. I started with 4, then, per suggestions here, I took my time listening to the others nearly in order (with most of the song cycles mixed in early on). I'm happy with that approach as most of the symphonies took multiple listens to really appreciate. I'm still not quite there with 8 and DLVDE. But this afternoon I think I will listen to 9 for the first time.

It has been a wonderful journey. I can't help but feel a twinge of sadness.

Don't be sad. Mahler will let you listen to Mahler as often as you like. There are months when I play nothing else (well, maybe a little Shostakovich, Beethoven, and the Beatles). I'm listening to Solti's Mahler now, something I've only heard in bits and pieces over the past twenty-seven years. I probably won't like it as much as Bernstein, but I won't know unless I listen.

FWIW, I have never liked Das Lied very much, either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on July 08, 2014, 01:34:23 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on July 08, 2014, 12:23:43 PM
But now you can start over from the beginning....    :)

In retrospect, do you still feel that M4 was the best gateway to Mahler's symphonies?

I won't be able to recreate the sense of discovery. There is tons of other music to discover, but it's rare to find things that have a similar effect on me.

1 or 4 would have been the best gateways for me. The weird thing about my first listen of 1 was how many times I was reminded of other works (3 of Beethoven, 2 of pieces composed after M1). That might have been a bigger distraction if I hadn't already gotten into the 4th. The others are just too long and at times brash to have made a good introduction, even though I now love most of them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on July 08, 2014, 02:04:15 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 08, 2014, 12:01:24 PM
I have been listening to Mahler heavily for nearly the past year. I started with 4, then, per suggestions here, I took my time listening to the others nearly in order (with most of the song cycles mixed in early on). I'm happy with that approach as most of the symphonies took multiple listens to really appreciate. I'm still not quite there with 8 and DLVDE. But this afternoon I think I will listen to 9 for the first time.

It has been a wonderful journey. I can't help but feel a twinge of sadness.
I know what you mean. To forget all of Mozart, or Die Schoene Muellerin, and discover it all afresh ...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on July 08, 2014, 02:58:24 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 08, 2014, 01:34:23 PM
I won't be able to recreate the sense of discovery. There is tons of other music to discover, but it's rare to find things that have a similar effect on me.

1 or 4 would have been the best gateways for me. The weird thing about my first listen of 1 was how many times I was reminded of other works (3 of Beethoven, 2 of pieces composed after M1). That might have been a bigger distraction if I hadn't already gotten into the 4th. The others are just too long and at times brash to have made a good introduction, even though I now love most of them.

Hmm, yes, the sense of discovery is a precious commodity. At least you found time in your life to walk that path which is a gift in itself. I guess classical music has so many moments of discovery which perhaps explains our obsession with exploring music?  Fortunately, I still have Mahler gems to dwell on..  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 08, 2014, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 08, 2014, 01:34:23 PM
I won't be able to recreate the sense of discovery. There is tons of other music to discover, but it's rare to find things that have a similar effect on me.

True: one way to approach a kind of "first-time" discovery would be to hear different conductors handling the works.

The other is to discover composers who can be seen as his heirs, at least in part: e.g. Schoenberg, Krenek, Hartmann, Shostakovich, Britten, ???
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on July 08, 2014, 03:23:16 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 08, 2014, 12:01:24 PM
I have been listening to Mahler heavily for nearly the past year. I started with 4, then, per suggestions here, I took my time listening to the others nearly in order (with most of the song cycles mixed in early on). I'm happy with that approach as most of the symphonies took multiple listens to really appreciate. I'm still not quite there with 8 and DLVDE. But this afternoon I think I will listen to 9 for the first time.

It has been a wonderful journey. I can't help but feel a twinge of sadness.
The adagio finale of 9 is amazing and amazingly sad. Some of the saddest music I've ever heard.

I haven't yet heard 3 or 8. The only one I didn't like so far was 6. I think my top three Mahler would be 7, 1, and either 2 or "Das Lied van der Erde" (which I'm listening to now). I love DLVDE, which I didn't expect.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on July 08, 2014, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 08, 2014, 03:18:15 PM
True: one way to approach a kind of "first-time" discovery would be to hear different conductors handling the works.

The other is to discover composers who can be seen as his heirs, at least in part: e.g. Schoenberg, Krenek, Hartmann, Shostakovich, Britten, ???

I keep finding wonderful music, and new music. 2014 has been a good year so far, with a few previously neglected composers found,  Lou Harrison for example, and above all one short piece, Feast of Love, by Virgil Thomson. So I'm not complaining  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on July 08, 2014, 09:21:07 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on July 08, 2014, 03:23:16 PM
The adagio finale of 9 is amazing and amazingly sad. Some of the saddest music I've ever heard.

I haven't yet heard 3 or 8. The only one I didn't like so far was 6. I think my top three Mahler would be 7, 1, and either 2 or "Das Lied van der Erde" (which I'm listening to now). I love DLVDE, which I didn't expect.
DLVDE divides even Mahlerians, which surprised me, as I think it is gorgoeous. Have you heard Schonberg's arrangement for 9 instruments? If not, do so. This is the one I have, and can recommend.
[asin]B000FDFO30[/asin]

My choices would be 7, 6, 2 and 9. I hope you did not listen to a Bernstein 6 ...
Or maybe I hope you did, because then your dislike might be easily reversed  >:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on July 09, 2014, 05:56:42 AM
Quote from: Ken B on July 08, 2014, 09:21:07 PM
DLVDE divides even Mahlerians, which surprised me, as I think it is gorgoeous.
I don't think I know too many people who don't rate the work.

Having said that, I don't listen to it all that often, perhaps because Janet Baker in Der Abschied is rather too intense an experience for everyday listening.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on July 09, 2014, 10:26:49 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on July 08, 2014, 03:23:16 PM
I haven't yet heard 3 or 8. The only one I didn't like so far was 6. I think my top three Mahler would be 7, 1, and either 2 or "Das Lied van der Erde" (which I'm listening to now). I love DLVDE, which I didn't expect.

Interesting. How many times have you listened to them? For me, 6 was a relatively tough nut to crack, but 7 was tougher still. Even most of the earlier ones required multiple listens.

I like 3 a lot but it is loooong.

Thanks to all for the responses and suggestions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on July 09, 2014, 10:50:59 AM
Quote from: Pat B on July 09, 2014, 10:26:49 AM
For me, 6 was a relatively tough nut to crack, but 7 was tougher still. Even most of the earlier ones required multiple listens.
I don't understand what is difficult about giving a work "multiple listens." I expect to listen to a piece of music many times if I like it, or suspect I will like it. I want to have "multiple listens." I liked 6 and 7 immediately and they are still my two of my four favorites hundreds of listens later (the others being 2 and 3). Mahler was not a "tough nut to crack" for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 09, 2014, 11:02:05 AM
Quote from: Ken B on July 08, 2014, 09:17:09 PM
I keep finding wonderful music, and new music. 2014 has been a good year so far, with a few previously neglected composers found,  Lou Harrison for example, and above all one short piece, Feast of Love, by Virgil Thomson. So I'm not complaining  :)

And if you like Mahler, one way to re-create that "first time" experience is to hear the only symphony by Mahler's friend and classmate at the Vienna Conservatory:

Hans Rott!

Here is a taste, if you do not know the work:

https://www.youtube.com/v/RR5mJM4b1XE

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on July 09, 2014, 12:19:22 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 09, 2014, 10:26:49 AM
Interesting. How many times have you listened to them? For me, 6 was a relatively tough nut to crack, but 7 was tougher still. Even most of the earlier ones required multiple listens.
I've heard #2 twice, at least, maybe three times (I've heard the scherzo of this many times). I've heard #6 only once. I wasn't in any hurry to hear it again, but I plan on it. I have heard #7 at least five times -- not necessarily because I'm trying to figure it out, but because I love it. Same with #9.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on July 09, 2014, 01:37:11 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 09, 2014, 11:02:05 AM
And if you like Mahler, one way to re-create that "first time" experience is to hear the only symphony by Mahler's friend and classmate at the Vienna Conservatory:

Hans Rott!

Here is a taste, if you do not know the work:

https://www.youtube.com/v/RR5mJM4b1XE

Thank you, Cato. It gets Mahlery to the max in places. It may be the Mahleriest music Mahler didn't make. Thanks as well for the most good grumble on superlatives and comparatives.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 09, 2014, 02:05:06 PM
Quote from: Jay F link=topic=683.msg815242#msg815242 It may be the Mahleriest music Mahler didn't make.
/quote]
Even more than Shostakovich?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on July 09, 2014, 02:35:13 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 09, 2014, 11:02:05 AM
And if you like Mahler, one way to re-create that "first time" experience is to hear the only symphony by Mahler's friend and classmate at the Vienna Conservatory:

Hans Rott!

Here is a taste, if you do not know the work:

https://www.youtube.com/v/RR5mJM4b1XE
Ever since Nate brought shame upon himself and his descendants unto the 7th generation for prefering 1 to several other symphonies, I have been urging him to listen to Rott's symphony; he already likes it.  >:D  :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on July 09, 2014, 02:43:32 PM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 09, 2014, 02:05:06 PM
Quote from: Jay F link=topic=683.msg815242#msg815242 It may be the Mahleriest music Mahler didn't make.

Even more than Shostakovich?
/quote]

Have you listened to it? It's Mahlerier in places than anything I know by Shostakovich, though I invite you to prove me wrong. I am new to Shostakovich, particularly the symphonies, and because I bought them all in one 2010s chunk (Barshai's Super Big Super Cheap Super Box), I don't have much sense of differentiation among them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on July 09, 2014, 07:51:36 PM
Quote from: Jay F on July 09, 2014, 10:50:59 AM
I don't understand what is difficult about giving a work "multiple listens." I expect to listen to a piece of music many times if I like it, or suspect I will like it. I want to have "multiple listens." I liked 6 and 7 immediately and they are still my two of my four favorites hundreds of listens later (the others being 2 and 3). Mahler was not a "tough nut to crack" for me.

Apparently I wasn't clear. By "require multiple listens" I meant I didn't start to appreciate those works until after several listens.

4 is the only one I immediately took to. Next I listened to 1, which was love on second or third listen. The remainder (with the possibly surprising exception of 3) took longer, but at each point I liked the previous ones enough that I expected the current one to be worth the effort -- and that always turned out to be true. I nearly gave up on 7, then it finally clicked. The jury is still out on 8, DLVDE, and 9, but I like their chances. ;)

Before this recent listening spree I had heard some Mahler, but that was years ago. I don't remember which ones.

ETA: usually my listening is not this regimented. But it worked. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on July 09, 2014, 08:27:15 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 09, 2014, 07:51:36 PM
Apparently I wasn't clear. By "require multiple listens" I meant I didn't start to appreciate those works until after several listens.

4 is the only one I immediately took to. Next I listened to 1, which was love on second or third listen. The remainder (with the possibly surprising exception of 3) took longer, but at each point I liked the previous ones enough that I expected the current one to be worth the effort -- and that always turned out to be true. I nearly gave up on 7, then it finally clicked. The jury is still out on 8, DLVDE, and 9, but I like their chances. ;)

Before this recent listening spree I had heard some Mahler, but that was years ago. I don't remember which ones.

ETA: usually my listening is not this regimented. But it worked. :)

I took to all but 8 immediately, 6 and 7 in particular, 1 less than the others. Over the years Mahler has dropped a lot for me, but periodically rebounds. I have developed a permanent aversion to the Bernstein approach. He's not the only one of those of course. Long ago I would want any Bach recording Grammophone dismissed as "pedantic". Now I seek out cold, passionless, clinical Mahler. Not that those are good things, but they are scode for "puts the structure and flow above indulgence and bombast". I like the Boulez I have heard. Chailly is still my top pick. Klemps  might be the best 7.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on July 10, 2014, 03:12:15 AM
There was a blind listening going on with No.2, and it seems to have ground to a halt. Which is a great pity, because it could have provided me with a lot of information about which conductors would suit my own personal tastes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted (((ABBADO/BERLIN 777))) virgin mahler listen
Post by: snyprrr on July 15, 2014, 02:17:04 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on June 28, 2014, 08:35:54 AM
It was Szell that I had in 6 on the cheap SONY. I can't remember the performance but I'm pretty sure it was acquired through Penguin Guide strong arm tactics (their top recommends). But a lot of reviews find Szell to zippy or something, not smelling the dying roses?


I did get Abbado/Berlin for 7 (only 5 cents, can't blame me there, haha!), but I'm stuck on 6. I really want something horribly terrifying or shocking or something- maybe it IS Lenny SONY? (though his DG gets the "one of a kind" sticker)


I'm sorry I'm being such a pain, but economic collapse is right around the corner and I NEED soundtrack material! NOW!!!






But seriously- I get soooo tired of endless amazon review pages just saying BernsteinBernsteinBernstein- but maybe once I get over this mental block I'll fall right in line.




Segerstam 6 ??? Jarvi ??? (the strangest and the fastest?)

How many weeks later Abbado/Berlin 7 arrives! Half way through...

Mvmt 1- Sounds like  boat ride down the Rhine... turbulence at @7mins (is Abbado MOR here? I could see Lenny overdoing this part!!).... very flowing boat ride... Wagner chords...

Mvmt 2- 'Fantasy Variations on the Valkyre Theme'- Mahler seems obsessed with Wagner?


After so much Shosty, Mahler seems so much like 'normal' music, but this 7th has an opulent richness to it, as if you're travelling a scenic path and all this incidental detail comes and goes, whilst the pulse remains steady. The 7th sounds to me like a High Society Bash, a Party Night on the Rhine- at least in Abbado/Berlin I'm not hearing 'Psychological' as much as 'Ecological'? Still, it sounds like a looot of cholesterol!!

As far as this Abbado/Berlin- mm- it sounds like a real good band playing, that much is clear!- The actual SOUNDS hitting the ear are very tickling and juicy. Perhaps I sense a lack of danger, but why would I want danger at a Beach Party for the Elite?

I did get a feeling that everything was just... slightly... 'perfect'... meaning, there could be something missing, but frankly, the sheer lushness going on here will keep your attention from moment to moment. I have no idea what the Reviewers meant by their comments about the 'atmosphere'- I didn't feel any 'misterioso'- things were pretty much here-they-are-in-all-their-glory, though, the actual 'ambience/atmosphere' does have a perfect aura to it. There is almost a New Yyears Gala feel to the proceedings-

Well, I guess if Beethoven ate mushrooms, this is what would happen?



So, this is "one" of the very best, eh?   Well, it sounds great! Not knowing the music, there was only a moment or two where I would have asked about what I was hearing, such must be the credit to Abbado for steering well. Above all else, this music comes off as a Large Viennese Symphonic Travelling Montage Landscape with Dancing! and some Gnomes thrown in for good measure! Hippy Mendelssohn
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted (((ABBADO/BERLIN 777))) virgin mahler listen
Post by: Brahmsian on July 15, 2014, 02:27:28 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 15, 2014, 02:17:04 PM

Well, I guess if Beethoven ate mushrooms, this is what would happen?


:laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted (((ABBADO/BERLIN 777))) virgin mahler listen
Post by: Jay F on July 15, 2014, 08:30:15 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 15, 2014, 02:17:04 PM
How many weeks later Abbado/Berlin 7 arrives!

So, this is "one" of the very best, eh?

I like Abbado's Chicago version more. I gave the Berlin to a friend. But since you rejected Bernstein's two M7s early on, what you like and what I like will probably not mesh. Or even dovetail.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 15, 2014, 08:43:03 PM
Quote from: Ken B on July 09, 2014, 08:27:15 PM
I took to all but 8 immediately, 6 and 7 in particular, 1 less than the others. Over the years Mahler has dropped a lot for me, but periodically rebounds. I have developed a permanent aversion to the Bernstein approach. He's not the only one of those of course. Long ago I would want any Bach recording Grammophone dismissed as "pedantic". Now I seek out cold, passionless, clinical Mahler. Not that those are good things, but they are scode for "puts the structure and flow above indulgence and bombast". I like the Boulez I have heard. Chailly is still my top pick. Klemps  might be the best 7.
Pretty similar for me. Chailly is one of my favorites and Bernstein I normally don't get into. The thing about his music is that you don't need to dramatize it too much, because it is already so dramatic that sometimes even a cold and clinical score will sound dramatic enough. Any more so can be pointless and it'll lose any sense of logic and flow.



Quote from: Ken B on July 08, 2014, 09:21:07 PM
DLVDE divides even Mahlerians, which surprised me, as I think it is gorgoeous.
I actually never hear criticism of DLVDE, which makes me feel odd, since it's probably the only Mahler work I feel indifferent to (everything else I like, besides maybe a few songs here and there in his song cycles). I like the ending, but even then, much of it just sounds too simple and uninteresting to appeal to me. I have the Klemperer recording which I can tell is great, so I'm sure it's the music itself that I have a problem with.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on July 16, 2014, 05:11:58 AM
Quote from: orfeo on July 10, 2014, 03:12:15 AM
There was a blind listening going on with No.2, and it seems to have ground to a halt. Which is a great pity, because it could have provided me with a lot of information about which conductors would suit my own personal tastes.

Indeed.  I was very impressed with P3 (1st movt) and would really like to discover who that is.  It sounds sort of middle-aged, and in a large acoustic, and it's one of the slowest takes (23:07) though not absolutely the slowest, and I suspect maybe Tennstedt. 

Regarding the 7th, I put in a word for Gielen by the way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted (((ABBADO/BERLIN 777))) virgin mahler listen
Post by: snyprrr on July 16, 2014, 08:38:50 AM
Quote from: Jay F on July 15, 2014, 08:30:15 PM
I like Abbado's Chicago version more. I gave the Berlin to a friend. But since you rejected Bernstein's two M7s early on, what you like and what I like will probably not mesh. Or even dovetail.

Well, I had Levine to compare against. Levine's recording is transparent studio, but otherwise,- it's harder comparing with Mahler than with Shosty?? Anyhow, I could surely try Lenny, or what not... fine though the Abbado is (the 'Objective Approach'??), there can obviously be other ways around the horn- I DO like the Klemperer- it turns it into creepy horror music which I like- there is none of that in Abbado, not a bit to my ears- even Levine played up the "minor key" a bit more than Abbado. I do like Abbado's recording, and his percussion sizzles! Levine's is a bit big (maybe not boomy- but, RCA vintage)...

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted (((ABBADO/BERLIN 777))) virgin mahler listen
Post by: Jay F on July 24, 2014, 01:10:46 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 16, 2014, 08:38:50 AM
Well, I had Levine to compare against. Levine's recording is transparent studio, but otherwise,- it's harder comparing with Mahler than with Shosty?? Anyhow, I could surely try Lenny, or what not... fine though the Abbado is (the 'Objective Approach'??), there can obviously be other ways around the horn- I DO like the Klemperer- it turns it into creepy horror music which I like- there is none of that in Abbado, not a bit to my ears- even Levine played up the "minor key" a bit more than Abbado. I do like Abbado's recording, and his percussion sizzles! Levine's is a bit big (maybe not boomy- but, RCA vintage)...
Today I am listening to Tennstedt's M7. The opening has a certain dire quality that made me think of you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 06, 2014, 02:58:05 AM
Does the opening section of Nachtmusik I (sym 7) remind anyone of music from the first Star Trek movies? Every time I hear it, I cannot shake the connection.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on August 06, 2014, 03:08:11 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 06, 2014, 02:58:05 AM
Does the opening section of Nachtmusik I (sym 7) remind anyone of music from the first Star Trek movies? Every time I hear it, I cannot shake the connection.
I haven't seen any Star Trek, but it does remind me of some really famous Arabian-sounding rock song that I don't know the name of (anyone?). I'm sure most people here would know it even if you don't know what I'm talking about. It's always on TV/commercials.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on August 06, 2014, 03:26:22 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 06, 2014, 02:58:05 AM
Does the opening section of Nachtmusik I (sym 7) remind anyone of music from the first Star Trek movies? Every time I hear it, I cannot shake the connection.

Finally I hear someone else notice this too! I can't shake the connection and it distracts me from Mahler's world. I only see a slow pan across the USS Enterprise in my mind.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on August 06, 2014, 05:06:47 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 06, 2014, 02:58:05 AM
Does the opening section of Nachtmusik I (sym 7) remind anyone of music from the first Star Trek movies? Every time I hear it, I cannot shake the connection.
I guess it's a good thing I didn't see a Star Trek movie until I'd been listening to Mahler for ten years.

Quote from: EigenUser on August 06, 2014, 03:08:11 AM
I haven't seen any Star Trek, but it does remind me of some really famous Arabian-sounding rock song that I don't know the name of (anyone?). I'm sure most people here would know it even if you don't know what I'm talking about. It's always on TV/commercials.

I am listening to it now. I will tell you if it reminds me of any Arabian rock. I can tell you it has not done so in 26 years.

However, at around 6:45 and 18:45 in the first movement of Bernstein's M9 (NYPO), I do feel as if I'm riding through Egypt on a camel. I see pyramids, I tell you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on August 10, 2014, 12:58:12 PM
Just now I finished listening to the Eigth under Bertini. He is of the fast, almost furious persuasion, especially in the turbocharged first Part. I was a bit uncomfortable, as this is (to me) 'music of the spheres', swinging majestically and rocking enthusiastically until the glorious last chord. The second Part is more coherent and settled, yet alive to the music's many facets.

Which brings me to this: the Eight is a beast of the first magnitude. I can't say I like it all that much. And I rarely hear a version that speaks to me from first note to last. It is just too uncouth to handle. Even the Seventh is easier to take. And the ninth is a rapturous, mozartean gem in comparison.

In any case this Bertini version is not the thing. Soloists are variable, with the top lungs (tenor and sopranos) souunding ssometimes distressed, when they should soar creamily high above. The Solti and Davis recordings achieve high marks here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on August 22, 2014, 07:59:06 PM
I just first-listened to Bernstein's DG 4th. The young soloist certainly has a different sound than we're accustomed to, but I don't understand all the hate. My biggest complaint is the unnatural recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidRoss on September 05, 2014, 02:33:56 PM
Quote from: Pat B on August 22, 2014, 07:59:06 PM
I just first-listened to Bernstein's DG 4th. The young soloist certainly has a different sound than we're accustomed to, but I don't understand all the hate. My biggest complaint is the unnatural recording.
I'd have to listen to it again.  It's been years since I first heard it, and an equal number of years since I heard it last. I was reaching for it to play just after reading your post, but en route I spotted Haitink's recording with Christine Schäfer and Fischer's with Miah Persson and thought, "Helmut Wittek ... really? Would you eat Alpo when you could have filet mignon?"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on September 06, 2014, 08:08:02 PM
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 05, 2014, 02:33:56 PM
I'd have to listen to it again.  It's been years since I first heard it, and an equal number of years since I heard it last. I was reaching for it to play just after reading your post, but en route I spotted Haitink's recording with Christine Schäfer and Fischer's with Miah Persson and thought, "Helmut Wittek ... really? Would you eat Alpo when you could have filet mignon?"

I chuckled. That Haitink will probably be my next 4th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on September 12, 2014, 10:47:02 AM
Quote from: Pat B on September 06, 2014, 08:08:02 PM
I chuckled. That Haitink will probably be my next 4th.

It wasn't. Instead I picked up the Slowik-led recording of a chamber reduction. I like the chamberness, though the piano can be a bit distracting. The violin solo in the scherzo is rather exaggerated, which is appropriate for the reduction -- it's inherently less distinct from the rest when the whole thing is one-instrument-per-part.

The booklet text (14 pages of text, English only, by Slowik) looks interesting, with a lot about Schoenberg and Mengelberg. It's not the usual basic-composer-bio stuff. I haven't had a chance to read it completely yet.

I'll have to listen again, especially since life prevented me from paying close attention to the finale, but this is an interesting disc for sure.

[asin]B0000CERI4[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 02, 2014, 01:56:36 PM
Resurrection, 8 hands, 2 pianos...

[asin]B00NBFASM6[/asin]

samples here :

http://www.melbarecordings.com.au/catalogue/album/mahler-symphony-no-2-resurrection (http://www.melbarecordings.com.au/catalogue/album/mahler-symphony-no-2-resurrection)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 07, 2014, 02:50:34 AM
Mahler at the Konzerthaus, Season 2014 / 15

we have Mahler for you here and then:

Hans Rott Quartett / Cornelius Meister
Mittwoch, 15. Oktober 2014, 12:30pm
Schubert-Saal
...
Gustav Mahler
Klavierquartettsatz a-moll (1876)

Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra / Frang / Stenz
Samstag, 18. Oktober 2014, 19:30PM   
Großer Saal
...
Gustav Mahler: Symphonie Nr. 5

Liederabend Kate Royal
Donnerstag, 20. November 2014, 19:30pm
Mozart-Saal
...
Gustav Mahler
Frühlingsmorgen (1889 vor)
Erinnerung (Lieder und Gesänge aus der Jugendzeit Nr. 2) (1880-1883)
Scheiden und Meiden (Des Knaben Wunderhorn) (1888-1891)
Ich atmet' einen linden Duft (Rückert-Lieder) (1901)
Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen (Rückert-Lieder) (1901)

Kammerkonzert der Wiener Symphoniker
Montag, 12. Jänner 2015, 19:30 Uhr   
Mozart-Saal
Renaud Capuçon, Violine
...
Gautier Capuçon, Violoncello
Philippe Jordan, Klavier
...
Gustav Mahler: Quartett für Klavier und Streichtrio a-moll (Quartettsatz)

London Symphony Orchestra / Trpceski / Cargill / Ticciati
Donnerstag, 22. Jänner 2015, 19:30 Uhr   
Großer Saal
...
Gustav Mahler
Symphonie Nr. 4 G-Dur für großes Orchester und Sopran-Solo (1899-1901)

NDR Sinfonieorchester / Kopatchinskaja / Hengelbrock
Samstag, 28. Februar 2015, 19:30 Uhr   
Großer Saal
...
Gustav Mahler
Symphonie Nr. 1 D-Dur «Titan» (Hamburger Fassung) (1888)

Wiener Philharmoniker / Harding «Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde»
Samstag, 9. Mai 2015, 19:30 Uhr   
Großer Saal
Klaus Florian Vogt, Tenor
Matthias Goerne, Bariton
...
Gustav Mahler
Das Lied von der Erde / Eine Symphonie für Tenor, Bariton und Orchester (1908-1909)

ORF Radio-Symphonieorchester Wien / Hahn / Meister
Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2015, 19:30 Uhr   
Großer Saal
...
Gustav Mahler
Symphonie Nr. 9 (1908-1909)

Orchestre Philharmonique du Luxembourg / Goerne / Krivine
Sonntag, 7. Juni 2015, 19:30 Uhr   
Großer Saal
...
Gustav Mahler
Kindertotenlieder für eine Singstimme und Orchester (1901-1904)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 07, 2014, 06:07:37 PM
Goerne ist sehr gut....
Aber Zwei!!!Quartettsatz?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 08, 2014, 02:04:17 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 07, 2014, 06:07:37 PM
Goerne ist sehr gut....
Aber Zwei!!!Quartettsatz?

We don't, sadly, expect all Quartettsatz lovers to be able to make it to both concerts. :-)

(ORF and VSO do their own programming, by and large... and that's a doubling I think few people would mind, if there is any audience overlap at all.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on December 04, 2014, 11:27:40 AM
Yikes, page 5! BUMP.

I'm listening to Barshai's completion of the 10th.
[asin]B003E1QDH6[/asin]

First listen to this version, and only my second listen to any completion. The other one was Ormandy, so I haven't heard any of Cooke's updates. I started to write about how idiomatic this Barshai sounds, and almost at that moment the xylophone entered. ;) But then, completions are inherently speculative, and this one seems plausible, and it works.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2014, 11:21:28 AM
I don't usually post about Mahler, however, this recording from the 1960 Prague Spring Festival is something quite special, which had me on the edge of my seat. I have never heard this great symphony performed with such urgency and tension and the recording from Czech Radio holds up very well:
[asin]B00O29Y9NE[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on December 12, 2014, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on August 06, 2014, 03:26:22 PM
Finally I hear someone else notice this too! I can't shake the connection and it distracts me from Mahler's world. I only see a slow pan across the USS Enterprise in my mind.
It reminds me of Castrol GTX. (The older Brits on the forum will know what I mean.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on December 12, 2014, 06:12:56 PM
Quote from: edward on December 12, 2014, 05:33:20 PM
It reminds me of Castrol GTX. (The older Brits on the forum will know what I mean.)
I know what you mean, but not because I'm an older Brit. I just found the old commercial after reading about its use.
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 05, 2015, 06:04:24 PM
I have been revisiting the Solti M8 from the 'Originals' reissue.

(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/05/62cb2d30b83d1fd147e3f152b4d8bff3.jpg)

I always thought this recording was not my taste, but hearing it years later on this edition, it's suddenly fantastic and brilliant! Wow! Perhaps my ears were closed all those years ago, but now Solti has captured my attention!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on January 06, 2015, 03:24:58 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on January 05, 2015, 06:04:24 PM
I have been revisiting the Solti M8 from the 'Originals' reissue.

(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/05/62cb2d30b83d1fd147e3f152b4d8bff3.jpg)

I always thought this recording was not my taste, but hearing it years later on this edition, it's suddenly fantastic and brilliant! Wow! Perhaps my ears were closed all those years ago, but now Solti has captured my attention!

Which one did you have before? I recently acquired the "Legends" iteration but have not listened to it yet. There was also a 1990 release, not part of any series.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on January 07, 2015, 04:35:15 AM
I have a question for Mahler experts (Sarge?) -- about the 6th.

I've been listening to the 6th a lot recently and liking it more and more (oddly, the first time I heard it, it was one of the few things of his I didn't like when I was going through his symphonies last June). The hammer blows -- my score has three. It is an old "Kalmus orchestral library" conductor's score, which means it is likely a reprint of the first Universal Edition edition. Then I read on Wikipedia that there were originally three, but he took one out. Then I read somewhere else that there were originally as many as five! Has anyone heard about that before?

It seems that most recordings use only two, but are there any that have three?

It's funny, because I got my score used and it was clearly used in a performance because the conductor wrote markings and cues all over in colored pencil. For the first two hammer blows, he drew a little stick-figure symbol of a hammer over the note. On the third, he didn't.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Artem on January 07, 2015, 06:01:47 AM
I have the 6th with Antonio Pappano, which I quite like, and true, there're two strikes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on January 07, 2015, 07:45:03 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on January 07, 2015, 04:35:15 AM
It seems that most recordings use only two, but are there any that have three?

There are several. I believe the list includes: Solti, Rattle (Birmingham), Zander, Bernstein (Vienna), Segerstam, and probably others.

Among those I have heard Solti and Rattle. I preferred Rattle as an overall performance (not necessarily for the hammer blows). But I've only listened to the Solti once.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on January 07, 2015, 08:41:10 AM
Lenny B goes for three, twice: http://www.fugato.com/pickett/mahler6-4.shtml
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 07, 2015, 08:46:16 AM
If it's of any use, there's a thread in the Spanish-language Mahler forum (of which I am a member) which makes a partial listing of Mahler Sixth recordings, stating whether there's a re-exposition of the theme in the first movement or not ("c/r" or "s/r"), whether the order of the central movements is scherzo-andante or viceversa ("S/A" or "A/S"),  and whether there are two hammer blows ("2M") or three ("3M") in the finale. The best summary is this post:

Quote from: FGT
Adler: s/r, A/S, 3M
Mitropoulos (Colonia): s/r, S/A, ¿? (*)
Leinsdorf: s/r, S/A, 2M
Bernstein (Sony): c/r, S/A, 3M
Horenstein (Bournemouth): c/r, S/A, 2M
Donhányi: c/r, S/A, 2M
Barbirolli (BPO): s/r, A/S, 3M
Barbirolli (NPO): s/r, A/S, 2M
Szell: s/r, S/A, 2M
Solti (Chicago): c/r, S/A, 3M
Abbado (WPO): c/r, S/A, 2M
Bernstein (DVD): c/r, S/A, 3M
Abravanel: s/r, S/A, 2M
Kondrashin: s/r, S/A, 2M
Farberman (LSO): c/r, A/S (**), 3M
Neumann (Checa): c/r, S/A, 2M
Maazel: c/r, S/A, 2M
Inbal (Frankfurt): c/r, S/A, 2M
Leinsdorf (1984): s/r, S/A, 2M
Bernstein (DG): c/r, S/A, 3M
Haitink (Mahlerfeest): c/r, S/A, 2M
Rattle (BSO): c/r, A/S, 3M
De Waart: c/r, S/A, 2M
Sinopoli (Stuttgart): c/r, S/A, 2M
Boulez: c/r, S/A, 2M
Bertini (Tokio): c/r, S/A, 2M
Segerstam: c/r, S/A, 3M
Ashkenazy: c/r, S/A, 2M
Herbig: s/r, S/A, 2M
Jansons (LSO): c/r, A/S, 2M
Eschenbach: c/r, S/A, 2M
Gergiev: c/r, A/S, 2M

http://gustav-mahler.foroactivo.com.es/t101p20-quienes-se-animan-al-tercer-golpe-de-martillo?highlight=martillo

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2015, 08:58:16 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on January 07, 2015, 04:35:15 AMThen I read somewhere else that there were originally as many as five! Has anyone heard about that before?

Originally there were five hammer blows (marked with a blue pencil in the autograph). Two were in the first movement (bar 9 and bar 530). They were crossed out and not included in the first edition. The final hammer blow (the third in the last movement) was omitted by Mahler in the second edition.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 07, 2015, 01:14:38 PM
Quote from: Pat B on January 06, 2015, 03:24:58 PM
Which one did you have before? I recently acquired the "Legends" iteration but have not listened to it yet. There was also a 1990 release, not part of any series.
I have the 1990 release, which I'm listening to again to compare. I find it sounds excellent, so I suppose the performance itself won me over finally :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on January 07, 2015, 03:54:50 PM
This is all outstanding information. Thanks! I'm interested in hearing some of the variations.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 07, 2015, 03:58:52 PM
The Benjamin Zander version (Telarc, Philharmonia Orchestra) is a 3-disc set in which the first two are of the symphony per se (with exposition repeat and 3 hammerblows in IV). The 3rd disc is an 80 minute lecture of all the interesting points of the score and its variants (repeat, order of the movemnts and number of hammerblows). It is not only quite convincing, but a magnificent interpretation, execution and recording of the worc. I recommend it highly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on January 07, 2015, 04:01:09 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on January 07, 2015, 03:54:50 PM
This is all outstanding information. Thanks! I'm interested in hearing some of the variations.

Well, you know what to do then!

I have no clear recollection of the number of thwacks in the recordings I know. It isn't really an important part of the performance to me I guess. It's such a complex (and long) piece that details are less interesting than the general approach. Fast, slow, gushy, restrained, lyrical.

Quote from: André on January 07, 2015, 03:58:52 PM

Thanks, sounds interesting.
The Benjamin Zander version (Telarc, Philharmonia Orchestra) is a 3-disc set in which the first two are of the symphony per se (with exposition repeat and 3 hammerblows in IV). The 3rd disc is an 80 minute lecture of all the interesting points of the score and its variants (repeat, order of the movemnts and number of hammerblows). It is not only quite convincing, but a magnificent interprétation, execution and recording of the worc. I recommend it highly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brunumb on January 07, 2015, 09:30:18 PM
This should be of interest concerning the hammer blows and much else in Mahler's 6th:

Myth and Reality in Mahler's Sixth Symphony
by Jeffrey Gantz

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVI/notes_myth_reality.htm
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 07, 2015, 11:50:27 PM
Quote from: brunumb on January 07, 2015, 09:30:18 PM
This should be of interest concerning the hammer blows and much else in Mahler's 6th:

Myth and Reality in Mahler's Sixth Symphony
by Jeffrey Gantz

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVI/notes_myth_reality.htm

How old is that article??

Incidentally, Mariss Jansons has reverted back to Scherzo-Andante (in his only ever riveting performance (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/ionarts-at-large-jansons-mahler-six.html) which I HOPE has been preserved on record, because it would blow his lame-duck M6s with the RCO and LSO so out of the water...!), and allegedly based on "new information". I tend to think that he received some old information, actually, and thought it was new... and that the scholarly consensus remains the same: "conceptually there is probably no case to be made against Andante-Scherzo", and musically it very much depends on the performance (Ivan Fischer and David Zinman can make excellent cases for A-S, live... nearly convinced Riccardo Chailly to do so, also [I've tried, to the laughably modest extent of my abilities, to discourage that]... but dramatically should be bloody obvious that Scherzo-Andante is hugely preferable.


Quote...The Andante was pure gorgeousness, liquid and untroubled (but of course askew) as if nothing had happened: A pastoral lie, and what a beautiful lie at that! Played by the orchestra to smooth perfection, seamless and soothing, we don't... we never question that lie for as long as the movement lasts. "Of course you won't die." We cling to that. Dum spiro spero. But why the sudden unrest? Why the palpitations? The music knows it is too early to resist... fate leaves us a comforting lack of choice here, and rage is futile. Mahler gently closes your eyes for a little longer and lets you float on an all-encompassing wave of music until the poor soul gets dropped at the foot of the last movement, where neither dreaming nor denial can carry the load of life any further...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 08, 2015, 06:28:57 AM
I can't find the complete filmed interview now, but in a series devoted by Universal Edition to conductors talking about Mahler's music, Pierre Boulez had this to say about the third hammer blow:

Quote from: Universal EditionQ: He deleted the third hammer blow in the 6th.

Boulez: Yes, that I can understand, because it does not fit at all. That's not the same context. With the first two Hammerschläge you have a main melody playing with the trumpet, both times the same melody playing. The third time it's the introduction which comes back, and the hammer has nothing to do with this reprise, this repetition, from the very beginning. And so there is no hammer there.

Q: It has nothing to do with reasons outside the music?

Boulez: No, I don't believe anything else. Well maybe he wanted a third one, but finally he said that's absolutely illogical to have a third one in this context, simply that. And what Alma, after that, had written about the drama; I don't believe a word of it. She invented quite a lot of things.

Q: So we should protect Mahler from these legends?

Boulez: From Alma, yes, but it's too late now [laughs]...

Transcript from this page: http://www.douban.com/group/topic/7091480/

Excerpts of intreview here: http://mahler.universaledition.com/pierre-boulez-on-mahler/

Regards,
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on January 08, 2015, 03:47:25 PM
Quote from: ritter on January 08, 2015, 06:28:57 AM
I can't find the complete filmed interview now, but in a series devoted by Universal Edition to conductors talking about Mahler's music, Pierre Boulez had this to say about the third hammer blow:

Transcript from this page: http://www.douban.com/group/topic/7091480/

Excerpts of intreview here: http://mahler.universaledition.com/pierre-boulez-on-mahler/

Regards,
I learned very quickly not to believe Alma Mahler. Didn't she go back and edit her husband's journals after he died?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 09, 2015, 03:39:40 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on January 08, 2015, 03:47:25 PM
I learned very quickly not to believe Alma Mahler. Didn't she go back and edit her husband's journals after he died?
AFAIK, there's no record of Mahler keeping a diary. Had there been one, Alma would  have probably tinkered with it anyway... ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on January 09, 2015, 03:57:31 AM
Quote from: ritter on January 09, 2015, 03:39:40 AM
AFAIK, there's no record of Mahler keeping a diary. Had there been one, Alma would  have probably tinkered with it anyway...

...and then cheated on it with another diary.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 10, 2015, 05:10:38 PM
Re Boulez's opinion on the third hammer blow, I don't see why the third has to be associated with the same musical material as the first two. It is the charcteristic of hammer blows of fate, after all, to come unexpectedly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2015, 01:04:00 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 10, 2015, 05:10:38 PM
Re Boulez's opinion on the third hammer blow, I don't see why the third has to be associated with the same musical material as the first two. It is the charcteristic of hammer blows of fate, after all, to come unexpectedly.

I feel the same way; Boulez' argument is dramatically weak. It is precisely the delayed onset of the third blow that makes it so effective, when used... you expect it at the 'usual' point... then you think, for a brief moment, that maybe everything will be alright after all... that just maybe, yes, perhapKRABBBBBUUUUM!. Oh. Never mind. [Dissipate into nothingness.]

But Boulez and HLdlG are pretty much lockstep on this issue and it's hard to tell who influences whom. I reckon HLdlG influences Boulez more than the other way around.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on January 11, 2015, 03:57:54 AM
As usual, Boulez's argument is an intellectual one as opposed to a visceral one.

At first I liked the idea of three hammer blows, but now I'm not so sure. People always seem to refer to the 'hero' of the symphony. Perhaps he was so weak by the first two hammer blows that it didn't take a third hammer blow to kill him. Maybe all Bowser had to do was just throw a ball of fire and...

(I AM sorry, but I cannot listen to this movement without thinking about Mario vs. Bowser -- I suspect Greg would understand).
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on January 28, 2015, 10:16:40 PM
Listening to Mahler's 6th Symphony conducted by Mitropoulos/NYPO/1955.

Like Hermann Scherchen and Jascha Horenstein, Mitropoulos manages to be great and sloppy at the same time. Such a great and powerful performance!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on February 11, 2015, 01:09:00 PM
Second listen to Honeck's rarely-discussed first first, with the BBCSO, on a BBC Music Magazine disc.

It's slow, except in the Scherzo (total time is about 58:30 before applause), with more rubato than most. Dynamics are -- well, I'm not doing comparative listening, but I can say they're not understated. That's a good thing in my book. The third movement has less of a klezmer feel than I am accustomed to. The sound is probably about what you'd expect for a 1998 live performance in Royal Festival Hall, not known for spectacular acoustics. The finish is one of the more exciting ones I've heard.

Overall, not a primary recommendation, but an interesting alternative. I found it cheap locally and am glad I did.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on February 11, 2015, 04:11:01 PM
Quote from: Pat B on February 11, 2015, 01:09:00 PM
Second listen to Honeck's rarely-discussed first first, with the BBCSO, on a BBC Music Magazine disc.

It's slow, except in the Scherzo (total time is about 58:30 before applause), with more rubato than most. Dynamics are -- well, I'm not doing comparative listening, but I can say they're not understated. That's a good thing in my book. The third movement has less of a klezmer feel than I am accustomed to. The sound is probably about what you'd expect for a 1998 live performance in Royal Festival Hall, not known for spectacular acoustics. The finish is one of the more exciting ones I've heard.

Overall, not a primary recommendation, but an interesting alternative. I found it cheap locally and am glad I did.
Thanks for the review - I have not heard it yet!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 23, 2015, 04:58:38 PM
Via Bruckner's Abbey: assorted articles on Mahler and his works are available.


Quote
QuoteThe abruckner.com website is now the official Internet home of the Bruckner Society of America. The organization has been legally reactivated as a non-profit organization. We are in the process of selecting members to the board of directors and we have completed our first project which was the digitalization of the society's journal, "Chord and Discord" which was published sporadically from 1932 to 1998. Those publications are now available in the Articles section of this website (see below).


Yes, they have scanned all the issues of Chord and Discord, a music journal that was published irregularly.  But, when it arrived, it was full of GREAT STUFF!  8)

I still have my copies from the 1950's and 1960's.  One of my favorite articles was not on Bruckner per se, but on Mahler's Das Klagende Lied by the great Jack Diether

Here is the pdf. link:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1969/1969-c.pdf (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1969/1969-c.pdf)

And check out the Table of Contents from the 1950 issue!!!  Articles by Robert Simpson, Donald Mitchell, Desmond Taylor, and of course Jack Diether!  Are there things like this around today?

Instinct and Reason in Music - Ernest  M. Lert 1
Mahler's Eighth: The Hymn to Eros - Gabriel Engel 12
All in the Family - Philip Greeley Clapp 33
The Eighth Symphony of Bruckner -  Robert Simpson 42
Mahler's Third in Iowa City  - Charles L. Eble 56
An Introduction to Bruckner's Mass in E Minor - Jack Diether 60
Mahler Eighteen Years Afterward -  Parks Gran  66
The Songs of Alma Mahler  -Warren Storey Smith 74
Bruckner on Records - Herman Adler 79
Some Notes on Gustav Mahler (1860-1911) - Donald Mitchell 86
Bruckner and Mahler in Australia  - Wolfgang Wagner 92
The Length of Mahler - Desmond Shawe Taylor 104
Bruckner's Eighth in Chicago -  Charles L. Eble 107
Music of Gustav Mahler Ranks with the Greatest - Louis Biancolli 113
The Ninth Symphony of Anton Bruckner - Robert Simpson 11
Mahler's Eighth Cheered by 18,000 in Hollywood  - 118
Ovation for Mahler's Second by Tanglewood Audience - 127
American Premiere of Mahler's Tenth  - 129
New York City Opera Company as a National Cultural Institution - 130
A Memorable Elektra - Robert G. Grey 133
Symphonic Chronicle  137
A Memorable Ninth .

See:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1950/1950-c.pdf (http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/thebrucknersociety2/1950/1950-c.pdf)





Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on February 28, 2015, 10:56:36 AM
New Mahler Cycle
Paavo Järvi / Frankfurt RSO

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xRF3Lu1f5dk/VPDXRI5SHiI/AAAAAAAAIDQ/TVDeeGltNLU/s1600/Mahler_Cycle_Paavo-Jaervi_Symphonies_5%2B6_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/02/new-mahler-cycle-from-frankfurt.html)
Title: Re: Stefan Zweig, Mahler, and Rachmaninov
Post by: Cato on March 03, 2015, 12:58:33 PM
From Stefan Zweig's memoirs The World of Yesterday, in comments about life in Vienna:

QuoteAll of us who lived there in our youth have brought a stern and implacable standard of artistic performance into our lives from those years.  Those who saw discipline exercised down to the smallest detail at the Opera House under Gustav Mahler, and vitality combined with meticulous accuracy taken as the norm in music played by the Philharmonic, are rarely entirely satisfied with theatrical or musical performances today.

I am reminded of Rachmaninov's comments about his delight in working with Mahler in New York on the former's Third Piano Concerto, because Mahler was so meticulous in examining the score for details and in wanting to rehearse the work until things were just right.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on March 04, 2015, 11:55:28 AM
Jens,

Some of that Järvi/Frankfurt Mahler appears to be up on the HR Sinfoniorchester's youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/hrSinfonieorchester/search?query=mahler

Misha
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on March 09, 2015, 03:50:20 PM
Another new Mahler cycle, it seems: Inbal, Tokyo:
http://www.octavia.co.jp/mahler.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on April 03, 2015, 02:38:39 PM
I hope these are good...
Has anybody here read Fischer's biography?


[asin] 0300134444[/asin]

[asin] 0193151596[/asin]

[asin] 0801443407[/asin]

[asin] 0801436540[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 03:58:33 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 03, 2015, 02:38:39 PM
I hope these are good...
Has anybody here read Fischer's biography?


I'm surprised Fischer (an insufferably pompous person) has been translated, but de La Grange not into German (where Fischer's presence might have prevented that for the time being).

I'm biased, because de La Grange is impeccably wonderful in correspondence... but I found that if you are willing to work your way through the massive de La Grange translation, there's nothing that Fischer offers that hasn't been already extolled, except his opinion. He has the advantage of being somewhat more concise, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 10:12:44 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 03:58:33 AM
I'm surprised Fischer (an insufferably pompous person) has been translated, but de La Grange not into German (where Fischer's presence might have prevented that for the time being).

I'm biased, because de La Grange is impeccably wonderful in correspondence... but I found that if you are willing to work your way through the massive de La Grange translation, there's nothing that Fischer offers that hasn't been already extolled, except his opinion. He has the advantage of being somewhat more concise, though.

Just starting out but Fischer is definitely...errr....very detailed! Could it possibly be the nature of the translation? The first chapter is completely focused on Mahler's body in terms of appearance/s and habits. An unusual approach!
Amazingly, the la Grange series is OOP and the first volume has yet to be republished by Oxford UP. I think I read somewhere that it will (could) happen in 2017. Otherwise these volumes are not exactly affordable so libraries can be a blessing at times.  Did you read the multivolume La Grange biography? Would you recommend any other Mahler biography?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 10:12:44 AM
Just starting out but Fischer is definitely...errr....very detailed! Could it possibly be the nature of the translation? The first chapter is completely focused on Mahler's body in terms of appearance/s and habits. An unusual approach!
Amazingly, the la Grange series is OOP and the first volume has yet to be republished by Oxford UP. I think I read somewhere that it will (could) happen in 2017. Otherwise these volumes are not exactly affordable so libraries can be a blessing at times.  Did you read the multivolume La Grange biography? Would you recommend any other Mahler biography?

I read La Grange 2-4; I have the old volume 1 which has overlap with the new volume 2, I think? Kindof still waiting for the new and revised volume 1. I find that all that I have read of it, has been essential.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 02:58:11 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 02:40:21 PM
I read La Grange 2-4; I have the old volume 1 which has overlap with the new volume 2, I think? Kindof still waiting for the new and revised volume 1. I find that all that I have read of it, has been essential.

Three thousand pages of pure bliss?    ;) 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 03:19:55 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 02:58:11 PM
Three thousand pages of pure bliss?    ;) 

Not a page-turner... but if you have some external motivation that keeps the pages turning, yes, something like that. :-)

What I like about HLdLG is that he gives you an immersion into the time. Rather than focus on Mahler in abstract, he gives you a time and environment in which Mahler could not have been... in other words, we are not as prone as we might otherwise be, to create our Mahler-as-if-today and think of him in present terms, which would be silly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 03:23:51 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 03:19:55 PM
Not a page-turner... but if you have some external motivation that keeps the pages turning, yes, something like that. :-)

What I like about HLdLG is that he gives you an immersion into the time. Rather than focus on Mahler in abstract, he gives you a time and environment in which Mahler could not have been... in other words, we are not as prone as we might otherwise be, to create our Mahler-as-if-today and think of him in present terms, which would be silly.

So a complete culture/time immersion? Perhaps reading these volumes will provide an opportunity to listen through and/or revisit one's Mahler cycles/recordings? I do like biographers that allow the reader to enter a different time and space. Did you by any chance read Fischer's volume?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 11:34:49 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 03:23:51 PM
So a complete culture/time immersion? Perhaps reading these volumes will provide an opportunity to listen through and/or revisit one's Mahler cycles/recordings? I do like biographers that allow the reader to enter a different time and space. Did you by any chance read Fischer's volume?

I have peeked at a few chapters in my friend's copy (in German) but did not want to contribute to the book doing well by getting my own copy. Maybe I should have asked for one from the publisher and then just kept mum about it.  ::) But it feels wrong to approach a book as prejudiced as I would have.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 11:43:55 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 04, 2015, 11:34:49 PM
I have peeked at a few chapters in my friend's copy (in German) but did not want to contribute to the book doing well by getting my own copy. Maybe I should have asked for one from the publisher and then just kept mum about it.  ::) But it feels wrong to approach a book as prejudiced as I would have.

I presume that every Mahler biographer has to tackle his life from a different perspective or by using "new" research to be able to have their own niche in the Mahler universe. I suspect that some of these books can be grueling depending on the perspective and writing style.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 05, 2015, 02:48:30 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on April 04, 2015, 11:43:55 PM
I presume that every Mahler biographer has to tackle his life from a different perspective or by using "new" research to be able to have their own niche in the Mahler universe. I suspect that some of these books can be grueling depending on the perspective and writing style.

I would assume that the German writing style would be considerably worse and unpleasant than English... but perhaps not much worse than French? And that a really good English translation could be superior to the original certainly in the German and well possibly in the French as well. Certainly the academic style in Germany is abominable, even if Fischer is, by all accounts, not the worst proponent.

From the New York Times: an excerpt from John Adams' review:

QuoteThe summa of all Mahler study, the first source of reference for anyone seriously interested in Mahler, is the massive multi­volume biography by Henry-Louis de La Grange. This is a work of exhaustive and exhausting research that does for its subject what similar studies by Joseph Frank did for Dostoyevsky and Leon Edel for Henry James. But de La Grange's study amounts to several thousand dense pages in which genuinely important information is mixed in with tedious data about long-forgotten singers, ticket sales and contract negotiations, along with more footnotes than a David Foster Wallace novel (and nowhere near as much fun).

For those who desire a more manageable overview of this artist's extraordinary life and work, Jens Malte Fischer's "Gustav Mahler" (translated from the German by Stewart Spencer) is a good place to start. At 700-plus pages, Fischer's book is no bagatelle either, but it is the work of a sympathetic writer who takes pains to establish the historical and cultural milieu that informs Mahler's music. His affection for his subject is palpable, the descriptions of the rural setting of the composer's Bohemian childhood are evocative, and the discussions of the symphonies and song cycles are original and refreshingly opinionated. He frequently cites Theodor Adorno's writings on Mahler, for both their positive and their pejorative appraisals, and in reading them one is yet again reminded of how musically penetrating that philosopher's statements can be, despite the often ­koan-like perplexities of their expression. It was Adorno who addressed what was for many a persistent and uncomfortable issue about the banality of some of Mahler's musical ideas by pointing out that he had turned "cliché" into "event."

I'm browsing German reviews and will post about them later.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 10, 2015, 06:04:07 AM
In June 2016, at the Théâtre des Champs-Elysées in Paris (and elsewhere, I would presume), the Vienna Philharmonic under Daniele Gatti will be performing Das Lied von der Erde, with the peculiarity that star tenor Jonas Kaufmann will sing all the lieder of the piece  ???

(http://i57.tinypic.com/6y2j4p.jpg)

http://2016.theatrechampselysees.fr/la-saison/orchestre/orchestres-residents/orchestre-philharmonique-de-vienne-1

I much admire Mr. Kaufmann's artistry, but this looks more like a circus act than anything else. Furthermore, I think that robbing DLvdE of the alternation between two voices can make it reeeeally tedious  ::)

The question is, of course, will they be doing the version for tenor and mezzo, or that for tenor and baritone?  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 10, 2015, 08:30:57 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 10, 2015, 06:04:07 AM


I much admire Mr. Kaufmann's artistry, but this looks more like a circus act than anything else. Furthermore, I think that robbing DLvdE of the alternation between two voices can make it reeeeally tedious  ::)



You are probably right.  But Kaufmann is one of the few singers who might be able to pull it off.  Gerharer is another one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 10, 2015, 09:34:13 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 10, 2015, 06:04:07 AM
In June 2016, at the Théâtre des Champs-Elysées in Paris (and elsewhere, I would presume), the Vienna Philharmonic under Daniele Gatti will be performing Das Lied von der Erde, with the peculiarity that star tenor Jonas Kaufmann will sing all the lieder of the piece  ???

(http://i57.tinypic.com/6y2j4p.jpg)

http://2016.theatrechampselysees.fr/la-saison/orchestre/orchestres-residents/orchestre-philharmonique-de-vienne-1

I much admire Mr. Kaufmann's artistry, but this looks more like a circus act than anything else. Furthermore, I think that robbing DLvdE of the alternation between two voices can make it reeeeally tedious  ::)

The question is, of course, will they be doing the version for tenor and mezzo, or that for tenor and baritone?  ;D

Kaufmann's fee is so bloody high, they couldn't afford a decent mezzo anymore.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on April 28, 2015, 08:32:38 AM
From the listening thread:

Quote from: sanantonio on April 28, 2015, 03:54:30 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xfrHAD3ZL.jpg)

I would like to see Immerseel take up Mahler with a smaller more period authentic band.  This is kind of in that style.

You may know this already, but Herreweghe has done 4, Das Lied, and the Wunderhorn songs, the latter also with Connolly. Slowik and his Smithsonian group have also done 4 (in a chamber arrangement) and Das Lied. I have Slowik's 4 and like it. I sampled Herreweghe's 4 but was really turned off by the soprano.

In the case of Mahler, I'm not sure that smaller is period authentic. Regardless, I'm all for exploring different performance styles and configurations.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on April 28, 2015, 09:15:02 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on April 28, 2015, 08:43:05 AM
I thought of that as I was posting, but would like to hear Mahler done with more transparency anyway.

Sorry for the semantic quibble -- I knew what you meant.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2015, 06:15:33 PM
Quote from: Pat B on April 28, 2015, 08:32:38 AM


In the case of Mahler, I'm not sure that smaller is period authentic. Regardless, I'm all for exploring different performance styles and configurations.

With Mahler there is no question what his intentions were as his scores and directions are meticulous. Invariably he calls for a huge orchestra with the largest complement of strings. It might be interesting to hear his works performed by a smaller ensemble but there is nothing HIP or authentic with these performances.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on April 28, 2015, 06:48:23 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2015, 06:15:33 PM
With Mahler there is no question what his intentions were as his scores and directions are meticulous. Invariably he calls for a huge orchestra with the largest complement of strings. It might be interesting to hear his works performed by a smaller ensemble but there is nothing HIP or authentic with these performances.

In the case of DLvdE, the arrangement was by Schoenberg within a few years of Mahler's death, so it certainly meets the HIP test. Do not know about the Fourth.

I have both the Herreweghe and Smithsonian DLvdE recordings.  The smaller forces underwhelmed me, which is why I did not check into the chamber version of the Fourth.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on April 28, 2015, 09:17:52 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 28, 2015, 06:15:33 PM
With Mahler there is no question what his intentions were as his scores and directions are meticulous. Invariably he calls for a huge orchestra with the largest complement of strings. It might be interesting to hear his works performed by a smaller ensemble but there is nothing HIP or authentic with these performances.

Oh, it sounds like you know a lot about this. What size string section did Mahler specify for the 4th symphony?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 29, 2015, 08:09:02 AM
Quote from: Pat B on April 28, 2015, 09:17:52 PM
Oh, it sounds like you know a lot about this. What size string section did Mahler specify for the 4th symphony?

An excellent question ! But we can do some simple math to figure out one out. In works like sym 2, 3, or 7 where Mahler wanted "The largest possible contingent of strings" I have seen live performances where the string section is 12/12/10/10/8 so that would be considered "large". You can even argue that Mahler wanted more strings if they are available based on "largest possible". Comparing the orchestration of No. 3 and 4 shows that symphony no. 4 has 4 less horns, 1 less trumpet 4 less trombones, one less tuba, one or two less clarinet, and maybe one less percussion player. So disregarding the strings symphony number 4 has 12-13 less players on stage but mostly the reduction is in the brass section. The woodwinds are more or less the same. So one way would be to proportionally reduce the number of strings to maybe 8/8/8/8/6. You can also argue that since the reduction in the orchestra in number 4 is by entire sections (no trombones, tubas, 4 less horns) the basic balance should stay the same in that case you keep the 12/12/10/10/8 string numbers.

In any case a good Mahler performance IS already very transparent, you don't need to reduce the size of the orchestra to achieve that.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on April 29, 2015, 10:09:34 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 29, 2015, 08:09:02 AM
An excellent question ! But we can do some simple math to figure out one out. In works like sym 2, 3, or 7 where Mahler wanted "The largest possible contingent of strings" I have seen live performances where the string section is 12/12/10/10/8 so that would be considered "large". You can even argue that Mahler wanted more strings if they are available based on "largest possible". Comparing the orchestration of No. 3 and 4 shows that symphony no. 4 has 4 less horns, 1 less trumpet 4 less trombones, one less tuba, one or two less clarinet, and maybe one less percussion player. So disregarding the strings symphony number 4 has 12-13 less players on stage but mostly the reduction is in the brass section. The woodwinds are more or less the same. So one way would be to proportionally reduce the number of strings to maybe 8/8/8/8/6. You can also argue that since the reduction in the orchestra in number 4 is by entire sections (no trombones, tubas, 4 less horns) the basic balance should stay the same in that case you keep the 12/12/10/10/8 string numbers.

In any case a good Mahler performance IS already very transparent, you don't need to reduce the size of the orchestra to achieve that.

I see. I was hoping that by "his directions are meticulous" and "invariably he calls for the largest complement of strings," you meant something other than "I can estimate sizes proportionally based on a live performance I saw of a different work."

Regardless, Herreweghe's 4 uses string sections of 12-12-9-8-6 which fits right in with your estimates.

And of course, orchestral size is only one of many performance decisions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 29, 2015, 11:01:52 AM
Quote from: Pat B on April 29, 2015, 10:09:34 AM
I see. I was hoping that by "his directions are meticulous" and "invariably he calls for the largest complement of strings," you meant something other than "I can estimate sizes proportionally based on a live performance I saw of a different work."

Regardless, Herreweghe's 4 uses string sections of 12-12-9-8-6 which fits right in with your estimates.

And of course, orchestral size is only one of many performance decisions.

No I saw live 4th also. It was 12-12 first/second violins. Where I was sitting I couldn't count the exact number of cellos, violas and basses so it was comparable to the orchestra size of other "larger" works.

There is a M4 on youtube also with Haitink and the orchestra size is about 12/12/10/10/8 also.

12-12-9-8-6? Is that for 1st vln/2nd vln/violas/cellos/basses? 9 is a weird number for cello or violas ?

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on April 29, 2015, 04:55:04 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 29, 2015, 11:01:52 AM
No I saw live 4th also. It was 12-12 first/second violins. Where I was sitting I couldn't count the exact number of cellos, violas and basses so it was comparable to the orchestra size of other "larger" works.

There is a M4 on youtube also with Haitink and the orchestra size is about 12/12/10/10/8 also.

Those are conventional string-section sizes for orchestras these days. I was trying to understand your assertions in post #3272.

If you're interested, Herreweghe's liner notes (available online here (http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/symphonie-no-4-lph-001/booklet)) touch briefly on what HIP means in Mahler, among other things.

Quote
12-12-9-8-6? Is that for 1st vln/2nd vln/violas/cellos/basses? 9 is a weird number for cello or violas ?

Yes. Yes. Even numbers are the norm but odd numbers are not unheard of.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 29, 2015, 06:04:07 PM
Quote from: Pat B on April 29, 2015, 04:55:04 PM


If you're interested, Herreweghe's liner notes (available online here (http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/symphonie-no-4-lph-001/booklet)) touch briefly on what HIP means in Mahler, among other things.

Nice article. Herreweghe isn't very specific though. He mentions respect for the 'style' of instrumental practice, but didn't give a single example as to what that style might be. Or maybe there isn't a defined style since those of Klemperer and Walter are so different like he said. He mentions the bowing of his orchestra tries to maintain the way a vocal line is maintained and not equalization, which is really nothing new. And I fail to see how "nurtured by baroque and classical practice" has any relevance to performing Mahler, and Herreweghe doesn't explain. The only concrete item related to performance is the use of guy strings and different wind and brass, which again is not new.

I don't have that recording. So what does he do differently?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on April 30, 2015, 10:36:30 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 29, 2015, 06:04:07 PM
Nice article. Herreweghe isn't very specific though. He mentions respect for the 'style' of instrumental practice, but didn't give a single example as to what that style might be. Or maybe there isn't a defined style since those of Klemperer and Walter are so different like he said. He mentions the bowing of his orchestra tries to maintain the way a vocal line is maintained and not equalization, which is really nothing new. And I fail to see how "nurtured by baroque and classical practice" has any relevance to performing Mahler, and Herreweghe doesn't explain. The only concrete item related to performance is the use of guy strings and different wind and brass, which again is not new.

I don't have that recording. So what does he do differently?

I wish he had gone into more detail, but the performance and the lack of wild theories are consistent with Herreweghe's reputation as an HIP moderate. If you think gut strings and a different approach to bowing are "nothing new" for a Mahler recording, then I'm not sure what else to tell you.

I just listened to it in full on spotify. It's pretty great aside from the soprano.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 01, 2015, 06:09:07 AM
Quote from: Pat B on April 30, 2015, 10:36:30 PM
If you think gut strings and a different approach to bowing are "nothing new" for a Mahler recording, then I'm not sure what else to tell you.

I just listened to it in full on spotify. It's pretty great aside from the soprano.

I meant using gut strings is nothing new. Without going to at least some level of detail Herreweghe comes across (at least in the notes) as one that tries to make gut strings, shrill winds and brasses as somehow tantamount to "authenticity". Did he try to duplicate the instruments of Mahler's time or is it a one-size-fits-all thing? We would never know. Instead of spending valuable time digressing on Mahler's orchestration of Beethoven's 9th or what Mahler would have thought when someone messes with his scores Herreweghe should have spent more time on "period instrument Mahler" which is exactly what he is seeking out to do in this recording.

What I find particularly astonishing (coming from a Baroque specialist like him) is what exactly does a culture cultivated in playing Baroque music has anything to do with playing Mahler. That in itself is an interesting subject. By that extension ensembles like the Academy or Ancient Music or Tafelmusik would make great Mahler orchestras.

FYI the entire work can be heard free on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mh3nwx3MAI&index=2&list=PL4RzGT98rL9Am32s-p0dCIm0_MSQhfHLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mh3nwx3MAI&index=2&list=PL4RzGT98rL9Am32s-p0dCIm0_MSQhfHLg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on May 01, 2015, 06:39:46 AM
Herreweghe did a very good Bruckner 7 with the Orchestre d'Champs Elysee, so late 19th century is not a foreign country to him.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on May 01, 2015, 06:54:10 AM
Golly;  I find that I love, but love Lenny's recording of the Fifth with the NY Phil!  And, of course, now I have all the remaining eight still waiting for me in The Box . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on May 03, 2015, 01:16:04 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 01, 2015, 06:54:10 AM
Golly;  I find that I love, but love Lenny's recording of the Fifth with the NY Phil!  And, of course, now I have all the remaining eight still waiting for me in The Box . . . .

+1

:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Minor Key on May 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PM
I want to preface my comments by saying that I'm a musical moron. I have absolutely no talent or musical education whatsoever. The reason I'm on this forum is due to a recently discovered passion for classical music. So what I say means nothing. But I would like to hear your learned opinions and comments.

Recently I purchased the Barshai recording of Mahler's 10th. And I love it!
What are your thoughts on this recording or on the reconstructed Mahler 10's out there? Is one better than the other?

FWIW, I love all Mahler's symphonies except the 3rd and 8th, which I haven't really given a chance yet. I particulary love Abbado's 6th, 7th and 9th and Maazel's 2nd.
I look forward to learning from your comments.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on May 18, 2015, 06:08:31 PM
Quote from: Minor Key on May 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PM
I want to preface my comments by saying that I'm a musical moron. I have absolutely no talent or musical education whatsoever. The reason I'm on this forum is due to a recently discovered passion for classical music. So what I say means nothing. But I would like to hear your learned opinions and comments.

Recently I purchased the Barshai recording of Mahler's 10th. And I love it!
What are your thoughts on this recording or on the reconstructed Mahler 10's out there? Is one better than the other?

FWIW, I love all Mahler's symphonies except the 3rd and 8th, which I haven't really given a chance yet. I particulary love Abbado's 6th, 7th and 9th and Maazel's 2nd.
I look forward to learning from your comments.

No need to call yourself a moron. We're all still learning.

I like Barshai's 10. He used his own completion. Some of the orchestration doesn't sound very Mahlerian -- but in some sense, that seems appropriate for a completion. There are several other completions. Most recordings use one of the versions by Deryck Cooke. I only have Barshai and Ormandy. I haven't had the urge to collect lots of recordings of 10 (unlike the other Mahler symphonies).

8 is my least favorite Mahler symphony and probably his least popular. But 3 is great!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on May 18, 2015, 06:21:28 PM
Quote from: Minor Key on May 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PM
I want to preface my comments by saying that I'm a musical moron. I have absolutely no talent or musical education whatsoever. The reason I'm on this forum is due to a recently discovered passion for classical music. So what I say means nothing. But I would like to hear your learned opinions and comments.

Recently I purchased the Barshai recording of Mahler's 10th. And I love it!
What are your thoughts on this recording or on the reconstructed Mahler 10's out there? Is one better than the other?

FWIW, I love all Mahler's symphonies except the 3rd and 8th, which I haven't really given a chance yet. I particulary love Abbado's 6th, 7th and 9th and Maazel's 2nd.
I look forward to learning from your comments.

Many of started out the same way. You're not a moron, you're a journier in a vast realm.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Minor Key on May 18, 2015, 06:46:12 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 18, 2015, 06:21:28 PM
Many of started out the same way. You're not a moron, you're a journier in a vast realm.
Quote from: Pat B on May 18, 2015, 06:08:31 PM
No need to call yourself a moron. We're all still learning.
Thanks for the kind words!

Quote from: Pat B on May 18, 2015, 06:08:31 PM
Most recordings use one of the versions by Deryck Cooke. I only have Barshai and Ormandy. I haven't had the urge to collect lots of recordings of 10 (unlike the other Mahler symphonies).

8 is my least favorite Mahler symphony and probably his least popular. But 3 is great!

I'm thinking of trying the Cooke version by Sanderling next.
And I'm diving into Mahler's 3rd symphony! Thanks to Pat B's inspiration!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 10:16:15 PM
Quote from: Minor Key on May 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PMI want to preface my comments by saying that I'm a musical moron. I have absolutely no talent or musical education whatsoever.

Someone who is new classical music is who are and a moron you're most certainly not. Don't put yourself down. We're all still learning, developing, and experiencing new things. My only suggestion is to not overwhelm yourself. Take things slow and one composer at a time.

This said, we're glad you're here and want you to continue to post. When you start getting into Sibelius, let me know. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 19, 2015, 02:55:12 AM
Quote from: Minor Key on May 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PM
I want to preface my comments by saying that I'm a musical moron. I have absolutely no talent or musical education whatsoever. The reason I'm on this forum is due to a recently discovered passion for classical music. So what I say means nothing. But I would like to hear your learned opinions and comments.

Recently I purchased the Barshai recording of Mahler's 10th. And I love it!
What are your thoughts on this recording or on the reconstructed Mahler 10's out there? Is one better than the other?

FWIW, I love all Mahler's symphonies except the 3rd and 8th, which I haven't really given a chance yet. I particulary love Abbado's 6th, 7th and 9th and Maazel's 2nd.
I look forward to learning from your comments.

Welcome, indeed. Morons are only those who think they are not. Straight to your point: Barshai's Mahler 10th is splendid!

There's more about the various version at the ionarts Mahler survey: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html)

Specifically here: Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 1) (http://xn--gustav%20mahler%20%20symphony%20no-s74u.10%20(part%201)) and here Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 2 (http://xn--gustav%20mahler%20%20symphony%20no-s74u.10%20(part%201))

QuoteRudolf Barshai set upon his own draft, drawing on all available versions and coming up with what I find to be by far the best attempt of presenting a coherent, exciting Mahler symphony. Excellent sound and a wildly inspired playing Junge Deutsche Philharmonie add tremendously. Barshai uses an almost bewildering variety of instruments in his Tenth, thereby moving further from the score in that regard than anyone else. Some might find the sounds of the guitar, castanets, or xylophones as uncharacteristic of Mahler (the Mahler of Symphonies 1-9 that is) or could think the atmosphere 'congested'. Maybe, but it makes for tremendous excitement. Of course we have no idea what Mahler would have ended up using for the final version of the Tenth—and despite the curiously large number of percussion instruments that Barshai uses, the tender and sparse, 'broken' orchestral texture of the symphony never gets disturbed. No one else sets the two gates in the first and last movement down in such a deliciously terrifying manner; Barshai successfully circumnavigates those rare moments where Cooke sounds oddly un-Mahlerian or too literal. The additional meat he hangs on the bones of the Mahler skeleton—as compared with Wheeler's leaner attempt—make for generally more satisfactory listening.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on May 19, 2015, 07:27:00 AM
Quote from: Minor Key on May 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PM
I want to preface my comments by saying that I'm a musical moron. I have absolutely no talent or musical education whatsoever. The reason I'm on this forum is due to a recently discovered passion for classical music. So what I say means nothing. But I would like to hear your learned opinions and comments.

Recently I purchased the Barshai recording of Mahler's 10th. And I love it!
What are your thoughts on this recording or on the reconstructed Mahler 10's out there? Is one better than the other?

FWIW, I love all Mahler's symphonies except the 3rd and 8th, which I haven't really given a chance yet. I particulary love Abbado's 6th, 7th and 9th and Maazel's 2nd.
I look forward to learning from your comments.

Mahler's realm is indeed mesmerizing. Welcome aboard, Minor Key! I was completely enthralled by Boulez's rendition of Das klagende Lied last week! Ahhh, I think I will dig it up for my morning commute! 
You are probably already familiar with Tony Dugan's wonderful musings about different Mahler recordings (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html)? Great inspiration for wandering through these soundscapes!

:) :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on May 19, 2015, 10:16:06 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 19, 2015, 07:27:00 AM
You are probably already familiar with Tony Dugan's wonderful musings about different Mahler recordings (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html)? Great inspiration for wandering through these soundscapes!

Great resource indeed, thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on May 19, 2015, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: Minor Key on May 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PM
I want to preface my comments by saying that I'm a musical moron. I have absolutely no talent or musical education whatsoever. The reason I'm on this forum is due to a recently discovered passion for classical music. So what I say means nothing. But I would like to hear your learned opinions and comments.

Recently I purchased the Barshai recording of Mahler's 10th. And I love it!
What are your thoughts on this recording or on the reconstructed Mahler 10's out there? Is one better than the other?

FWIW, I love all Mahler's symphonies except the 3rd and 8th, which I haven't really given a chance yet. I particulary love Abbado's 6th, 7th and 9th and Maazel's 2nd.
I look forward to learning from your comments.

First of all, welcome to the forum!

The Barshai Mahler 10 is excellent, one of the top two renditions as far as I'm concerned. The other one is the RSO-Berlin/Chailly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on May 19, 2015, 03:16:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 18, 2015, 10:16:15 PM
We're all still learning, developing

Well, not Nate. He became a Stockhausen fan. So sad.
Pretty soon he will be cutting and pasting large sections of advertising flyers into the comments.

>:D :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on May 19, 2015, 04:16:36 PM
Quote from: Florestan on May 19, 2015, 10:16:06 AM
Great resource indeed, thanks for pointing it out.

Of course!  ;)
It makes great reading and it becomes quite tempting to find some of the recordings....  >:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 19, 2015, 05:07:21 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 19, 2015, 07:27:00 AM
Mahler's realm is indeed mesmerizing. Welcome aboard, Minor Key! I was completely enthralled by Boulez's rendition of Das klagende Lied last week! Ahhh, I think I will dig it up for my morning commute! 
You are probably already familiar with Tony Dugan's wonderful musings about different Mahler recordings (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html)? Great inspiration for wandering through these soundscapes!

:) :)

Makes for interesting reading, some recommendations are totally laughable (Abbado and Rattle in the 3rd symphony???). The guy never heard a Horenstein or Barbirollin recording he didn't love. You really have to take whatever he says with a grain of salt. I think he throws in a couple of good mainstream recommendations in there so that he be taken seriously for the various ridiculous Horenstein, Barbirolli, or British-biased picks that he makes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 20, 2015, 03:40:21 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 19, 2015, 05:07:21 PM
Makes for interesting reading, some recommendations are totally laughable (Abbado and Rattle in the 3rd symphony???). The guy never heard a Horenstein or Barbirollin recording he didn't love. You really have to take whatever he says with a grain of salt. I think he throws in a couple of good mainstream recommendations in there so that he be taken seriously for the various ridiculous Horenstein, Barbirolli, or British-biased picks that he makes.

British-bias is an almost amusing thing among the Brits. Mind you, it's better to be biased FOR your own than AGAINST those who are not (as in German or French bias, if I may grossly simplify), but still.
The 10 Best Bach recordings on Gramophone's site are ALL by British artists. Very droll. Will publish an alternative on Forbes... have a few ideas (including several English artists, who are often magnificent) but would like to hear others', too. If you have suggestions, perhaps you could post them in a relevant Bach-thread? Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on May 20, 2015, 07:36:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 19, 2015, 02:55:12 AM
Welcome, indeed. Morons are only those who think they are not. Straight to your point: Barshai's Mahler 10th is splendid!

There's more about the various version at the ionarts Mahler survey: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html)

Specifically here: Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 1) (http://xn--gustav%20mahler%20%20symphony%20no-s74u.10%20(part%201)) and here Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.10 (Part 2 (http://xn--gustav%20mahler%20%20symphony%20no-s74u.10%20(part%201))

The Cooke performing version has fascinated me, ever since I bought the score c. 40 + years ago.  To be sure, one can never know what (especially in the finale) Mahler would have done in the finished product: would some harmonically fleshed out sections been left empty, allowing the melody to float like a single line of lamenting Gregorian chant, and like the opening "motto" in the first movement?   

Or would we have a ten-voice chord somewhere, again like in the first movement?

I was discussing the Scriabin Prefatory Action, now known as Mysterium/Universe, which was "completed" by the apparently obsessive Alexander Nemtin over several decades.  In that last version of the completion, which goes on for 3 CD's, one wonders whether the last two sections are not Nemtin trying to become Scriabin.

The music certainly sounds like something Scriabin might have composed.  So if Barshai wants to try his hand, and the result sounds like Mahler from an alternate universe where he lived until 1912 or 1913, I am fine with that!   0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on May 20, 2015, 10:30:06 AM
Am I a philistine if my favorite Mahler symphony is the 3rd?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 20, 2015, 10:35:49 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 20, 2015, 10:30:06 AM
Am I a philistine if my favorite Mahler symphony is the 3rd?

No. You are a Philistine if your favorite Mahler symphony is the 8th.  ;)

The finale of the Third is Mahler at his most Mahlerian... it's amazing. (When done well.)

(The 9th is the least Mahlerian; the 7th the most easily dismissed, the 6th my favorite.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on May 20, 2015, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 20, 2015, 10:35:49 AM
No. You are a Philistine if your favorite Mahler symphony is the 8th.  ;)

The finale of the Third is Mahler at his most Mahlerian... it's amazing. (When done well.)

(The 9th is the least Mahlerian; the 7th the most easily dismissed, the 6th my favorite.)

The 3rd is the first Mahler symphony I´ve ever heard. It was a birthday gift from a very good friend of my father: a Supraphon double LP, with Vaclav Neuman and the Czech PO. Right on the spot back then (1985 or 86) it displaced Beethoven as my favorite composer. 30 years later I know better, but it still gives me goosebumps every time I hear it (work or performance, it doesn´t matter).  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on May 20, 2015, 10:47:14 AM
A philistine would probably favor the 5th (because of the adagietto) or the 1st (because comparably short and sweet).

I find the 9th very Mahlerian. The 3rd (too long and sprawling for me) is the "summit" of the early Mahler, pantheistically embracing the natural world and even some medieval-childish "earthly paradise" (the finale of the 4th was originally be supposed to be another part of the 3rd "Was mir das Kind erzählt" (or "Was mir die Engel erzählen", the other one is the Bimmbamm-Movement)).
The 9th is the summit of the late Mahler: renunciation of the world, but more "abstract" than in "Das Lied von der Erde".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2015, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on May 20, 2015, 10:55:52 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 20, 2015, 10:47:14 AM
A philistine would probably favor the 5th (because of the adagietto)

Hah! This posts belongs in the snobbery thread.   ;)

(* chortle *)

I love the Adagietto, and I don't care who knows it  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on May 20, 2015, 11:03:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 20, 2015, 10:58:16 AM
I love the Adagietto

Me too! It´s like Late Romanticism as you won´t hear it too often...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Minor Key on May 20, 2015, 12:31:29 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 19, 2015, 07:27:00 AM
You are probably already familiar with Tony Dugan's wonderful musings about different Mahler recordings (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html)? Great inspiration for wandering through these soundscapes!

Thanks everyone for the kind words and information!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 12, 2015, 10:41:19 AM
I am not Mahlerian in the normal sense of the word. I do like his music but most of his works I've listened so far have opened to me rather slowly, and I'm not even sure why. 1st symphony and 5 first movements of das Lied von der Erde were exceptions, those I liked instantly. I appreciate the last movement of Erde more nowadays than I used to. Very autumnal, almost Brahmsian feeling. I still prefer the earlier movements, though, especially the happier ones (Von der Schönheit indeed). 2nd symphony I haven't yet learned to like so far. 3rd I didn't get at all first, but nowadays it is probably my favorite of those Mahler symphonies I've heard, (unless you count Erde, that's my all-time favorite composition from him.) Slow start with 4th, but I learned to like it much faster than 3rd one, even if I now consider no. 3 superior. I get similar feeling from Mahler 4 what I gain from Sibelius no. 6. Lighter, delicate works, in the good sense of the word. 9th was a very difficult work for me. First, I felt almost no emotion listening to it. But slowly, like having achieved slow step-by-step Nirvana, I started to see those wonderful qualities in it, like music from other world, music of death, if you will (or maybe an acceptance of it, embracing it). Especially the last movement. I still struggle with the symphony at times, but I see it as a pleasant challenge, I like music that doesn't open easily, for ex. Grosse Fuge by Beethoven. That proves the composer has skills, more than anything. Of course there is also difficult music which I just plain old don't like.

I still haven't heard symphonies 5-8.

Clearly the guy had skills and genius. Too bad he dismissed Sibelius as a composer, which probably had something to do with a bad choice of works of Jean that he had a chance to hear while in Finland. Although it's possible he would have dismissed Jean's symphonies as well, since their concept of what was most important in symphony was opposite. He possibly thought Sibbe was Finland's Offenbach (no offence to Offenbach, I like his music, but I still don't see him as the most serious composer there is, not that there is anything bad in it).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2015, 10:45:31 AM
Try the Rückert-Lieder!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 12, 2015, 11:27:06 AM
Mahler Top 10:

1. 6
2. 7
3. 2
4. 3
5. 4
6. 5
7. 8
8. 9
9. 1
10. 10
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on June 13, 2015, 05:34:48 PM
I'm planning to listen to all of the Mahler symphonies over the next, IDK, month or two maybe. They're a definite gap in my repertoire knowledge, I only having heard 1, 6, 7 and 9 (and Das Lied) and not remembering any of them very clearly.

So far, I like No. 1 (although it feels paradoxically insubstantial for a 55 minute symphony, lol) and think No. 2 has some interesting ideas although I'm not convinced by the whole. (I like without reservations the middle three movements, but the 1st movement doesn't feel like it ever gets off the ground and I'm not that invested in the finale until the choir comes in... I understand why he wrote tge orchestral bit the way he did, I just don't connect with it, emotionally?) No. 3's first movement seemed like a rehash of the first movement of No. 2 in some respects but I ran out of time and couldn't listen to the rest, so withholding judgment. I'll listen to the whole thing including the 1st mvt again at some point soon.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on June 13, 2015, 07:08:59 PM
Quote from: Alberich on June 12, 2015, 10:41:19 AMClearly the guy had skills and genius. Too bad he dismissed Sibelius as a composer, which probably had something to do with a bad choice of works of Jean that he had a chance to hear while in Finland. Although it's possible he would have dismissed Jean's symphonies as well, since their concept of what was most important in symphony was opposite. He possibly thought Sibbe was Finland's Offenbach (no offence to Offenbach, I like his music, but I still don't see him as the most serious composer there is, not that there is anything bad in it).

Why these two composers even met in the first place is quite puzzling. The two didn't have anything in common whatsoever. I suppose they were seen as 'rivals' or some such assertion, but their meeting didn't really accomplish anything. One stated that he preferred this while the other clearly preferred something else. Strange indeed. I'd love, however, to have a transcript of their conversation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 14, 2015, 12:17:22 AM
Quote from: amw on June 13, 2015, 05:34:48 PM
So far, I like No. 1 (although it feels paradoxically insubstantial for a 55 minute symphony, lol)
I agree with the paradox. The same is true about the 4th I think, but in that case the "insubstantiality" is clearly on purpose. I have a fondness for the 1st and like some parts a lot (e.g. the beginning of the first movement and the 3rd movement) but altogether it feels like less than the sum of its parts. And despite the quotations the finale seems sometimes like an entirely new piece not really connected to the rest.

Quote
and think No. 2 has some interesting ideas although I'm not convinced by the whole. (I like without reservations the middle three movements, but the 1st movement doesn't feel like it ever gets off the ground and I'm not that invested in the finale until the choir comes in... I understand why he wrote tge orchestral bit the way he did, I just don't connect with it, emotionally?)
I think the orchestral portion of the finale is too long by 50% or so. I still find the whole symphony impressive (and I like the first movement better than you do). To put it slightly maliciously, to me the outer movements of the 2nd seem like pieces inspired by Beethoven's 9th but worked out by a composer who for whatever reason does not (yet) have the appropriate sense of pace and proportions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on June 14, 2015, 01:38:38 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 12, 2015, 11:27:06 AM
Mahler Top 10:

1. 6
2. 7
3. 2
4. 3
5. 4
6. 5
7. 8
8. 9
9. 1
10. 10
My list:
1. 7 (My first full Mahler symphony, still my favorite, I even like the weird finale)
2. 6 (didn't like it at first!)
3. 1 (love this one)
4. 9
5. 2 (my favorite scherzo out of all )
6. 4 (sleigh bells, mis-tuned violin solo, unexpected song finale!)
7. Des Knaben Wunderhorn song cycle
8. dLvdE
9. 5 (don't remember, other than the adagietto and scherzo)
10. 3 (couldn't finish)

Never heard 8 or 10.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on June 14, 2015, 01:59:20 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 14, 2015, 12:17:22 AM
I agree with the paradox. The same is true about the 4th I think, but in that case the "insubstantiality" is clearly on purpose. I have a fondness for the 1st and like some parts a lot (e.g. the beginning of the first movement and the 3rd movement) but altogether it feels like less than the sum of its parts. And despite the quotations the finale seems sometimes like an entirely new piece not really connected to the rest.
I think the orchestral portion of the finale is too long by 50% or so. I still find the whole symphony impressive (and I like the first movement better than you do). To put it slightly maliciously, to me the outer movements of the 2nd seem like pieces inspired by Beethoven's 9th but worked out by a composer who for whatever reason does not (yet) have the appropriate sense of pace and proportions.

I generally agree with this. Even though I consider myself (still) a 'Mahlerian', this doesn't mean that I (have to) like everything he made.

I never really found a 'click' with the Finales of f.i. nos. 1, 2 (apart from the chorus and its 'flute' intro) and 7, and also with the opening movement of no. 3. Too much directionless hoity-toity for my taste.

The opener of no. 2 is one of my favourites, though. The first time I heard it live I was completely flabbergasted. I really needed that relaxed Andante moderato to recover. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on June 14, 2015, 03:55:06 PM
QuoteTo put it slightly maliciously, to me the outer movements of the 2nd seem like pieces inspired by Beethoven's 9th but worked out by a composer who for whatever reason does not (yet) have the appropriate sense of pace and proportions.
^ agree with that.

I don't mind the finale of No. 1 actually; it's got a fair amount of drive and some good tunes, and if you tacked on the introduction to the first movement it would make a passable Strauss tone poem, maybe. >.>

No. 3's first movement still doesn't do much for me, still sounds like the first movement of No. 2 just with the funeral march traded out for a 'wacky' satirical(?) march. In general I think the symphony starts out weak and gets stronger towards the end—the dance movements aren't v memorable, then the two vocal movements are nice in a Knaben Wunderhorn sort of way, and the finale is much stronger than anything else in the work and is the first movement by Mahler I've heard to suggest he is a 'great' composer (although I don't completely like it, it's definitely great music whether I enjoy it or not, if that makes sense).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 14, 2015, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on June 14, 2015, 01:38:38 AM

Never heard 8

So young and yet so wise.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 15, 2015, 02:09:07 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 14, 2015, 04:57:26 PM
So young and yet so wise.

*Guffaws loudly*
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on June 15, 2015, 04:42:13 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on June 14, 2015, 01:38:38 AM
Never heard 8

If you fused the "Ride of the Valkyries" with monastic chant . . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on June 16, 2015, 02:57:18 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 14, 2015, 12:17:22 AMThe same is true about the 4th I think, but in that case the "insubstantiality" is clearly on purpose.
I find the finale of no. 4, in particular, to feel like more than the sum of its parts—although that also has something to do with coming right after the second of the four (?) 'Mahler Adagios', which makes the 4th feel a fair bit weightier just on its own. Agree that the 1st is definitely 'trying too hard'.

Also I haven't talked much about interpretations so far but have to say, Frederica von Stade is actually amazing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 16, 2015, 03:34:07 AM
Quote from: amw on June 16, 2015, 02:57:18 AM
I find the finale of no. 4, in particular, to feel like more than the sum of its parts—although that also has something to do with coming right after the second of the four (?) 'Mahler Adagios', which makes the 4th feel a fair bit weightier just on its own. Agree that the 1st is definitely 'trying too hard'.

Also I haven't talked much about interpretations so far but have to say, Frederica von Stade is actually amazing.

I absolutely adore the last Haitink recording with Christine Schaefer (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TKODEK?ie=UTF8&tag=weta909-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000TKODEK)!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 16, 2015, 04:12:23 AM
I might even agree that the 4th is more than the sum of its parts. The 1st somehow wants to be BOTH a huge romantic symphony (especially in the finale) AND subvert the huge romantic symphony ironically (in some parts of the first 3 movements).
The 4th pretends to be a "rollback" to classicism but especially in the adagio it gets closer to the transcendent, mystic quality the big romantic symphony is supposed to evoke than the 1st and most of the 2nd (except Urlicht, which is again small scale and naive, and the last 10 minutes or so with the choir).

So the "insubstantiality" is very different in both cases.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2015, 06:42:11 AM
Quote from: amw on June 16, 2015, 02:57:18 AM
Also I haven't talked much about interpretations so far but have to say, Frederica von Stade is actually amazing.

She is amazing. My favorite mezzo. I saw her perform the Fourth (and Les Nuits d'été) with Maazel and Cleveland in the 70s. Memorable.

Are you listening to Levi or Abbado? Abbado's Fourth I'm not so fond of.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on June 16, 2015, 10:39:25 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2015, 06:42:11 AM
She is amazing. My favorite mezzo. I saw her perform the Fourth (and Les Nuits d'été) with Maazel and Cleveland in the 70s. Memorable.

Are you listening to Levi or Abbado? Abbado's Fourth I'm not so fond of.

Sarge
You think Levi's better? I didn't know she made more than one, I should check that out.

@JL Schäfer is an excellent singer in the 18th-century repertoire I've heard, wouldn't be surprised if she also slays in post-romantic. I thought she was a straight soprano though, p sure Mahler calls specifically for a mezzo.
(It seems to be a bit variable actually from the recordings I can see, lots of sopranos as well as mezzos and Bernstein even has a boy soprano, which I think I'll be skipping >.>)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2015, 04:46:29 AM
Quote from: amw on June 16, 2015, 10:39:25 PM
You think Levi's better? I didn't know she made more than one, I should check that out.

Levi is a more natural Mahlerian, I think. And his recording has superb sound. But Frederica was twenty years older. Her voice isn't as fresh, has a darker tone, probably not ideal for the music. Still a superb interpretation. 

Quote from: amw on June 16, 2015, 10:39:25 PM
@JL Schäfer is an excellent singer in the 18th-century repertoire I've heard, wouldn't be surprised if she also slays in post-romantic. I thought she was a straight soprano though, p sure Mahler calls specifically for a mezzo.
(It seems to be a bit variable actually from the recordings I can see, lots of sopranos as well as mezzos and Bernstein even has a boy soprano, which I think I'll be skipping >.>)

According to La Grange, Mahler asks for a soprano. Most of the recordings I own (33) are with soprano, including light lyric sopranos like Battle, Bonney, Upshaw.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 17, 2015, 07:26:20 AM
Quote from: amw on June 16, 2015, 10:39:25 PM
You think Levi's better? I didn't know she made more than one, I should check that out.

@JL Schäfer is an excellent singer in the 18th-century repertoire I've heard, wouldn't be surprised if she also slays in post-romantic. I thought she was a straight soprano though, p sure Mahler calls specifically for a mezzo.
(It seems to be a bit variable actually from the recordings I can see, lots of sopranos as well as mezzos and Bernstein even has a boy soprano, which I think I'll be skipping >.>)

As Sarge has mentioned, the FOURTH Symphony certainly calls for a soprano. Schaefer, whose voice - alas - is now shot, was caught at her most glorious.

Other than that, it's often the lyric sopranos who do really well here... Bonney and Battle and the like... but also a young Helen Donath! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000034N6/goodmusicguide-20)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 07:56:31 AM
Restoring the Mahler Survey, post-by-post:

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.2 (Part 1)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZJwnQEl-bLQ/VYM8gRWs6BI/AAAAAAAAIR4/etGFq8FKPBk/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_2.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-1.html)


Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.2 (Part 2)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Mys3pW-RFzo/VYWMuyc8lKI/AAAAAAAAITE/Vp8VQkhvrd8/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_2_2.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 20, 2015, 11:02:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 07:56:31 AM
Restoring the Mahler Survey, post-by-post:

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.2 (Part 1)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZJwnQEl-bLQ/VYM8gRWs6BI/AAAAAAAAIR4/etGFq8FKPBk/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_2.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-1.html)


Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.2 (Part 2)

Thanks, Jens. I am now contemplating buying the Boulez box set.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Mys3pW-RFzo/VYWMuyc8lKI/AAAAAAAAITE/Vp8VQkhvrd8/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_2_2.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 11:58:35 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 20, 2015, 11:02:25 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 07:56:31 AM
Restoring the Mahler Survey, post-by-post:

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.2 (Part 1)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZJwnQEl-bLQ/VYM8gRWs6BI/AAAAAAAAIR4/etGFq8FKPBk/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_2.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-1.html)


Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.2 (Part 2)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Mys3pW-RFzo/VYWMuyc8lKI/AAAAAAAAITE/Vp8VQkhvrd8/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_2_2.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html)
Thanks, Jens. I am now contemplating buying the Boulez box set.

You could do worse! I think it's probably one of the best sets -- as it contains only one true dud, the 8th. And you know where to go for the 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html), right? :-)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 20, 2015, 12:49:33 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 11:58:35 AM
Thanks, Jens. I am now contemplating buying the Boulez box set.


You could do worse! I think it's probably one of the best sets -- as it contains only one true dud, the 8th. And you know where to go for the 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html), right? :-)
To hell, where it plays continuously.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 12:55:33 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 20, 2015, 12:49:33 PM
To hell, where it plays continuously.

;D  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on June 20, 2015, 01:08:50 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 07:56:31 AM
Restoring the Mahler Survey, post-by-post:

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.2 (Part 1)


(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-1.html)

Great posts (1 & 2) on Mahler's 2nd symphony, Jens! Interesting reading as always! Thanks!   :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2015, 02:20:47 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 11:58:35 AM

You could do worse! I think it's probably one of the best sets -- as it contains only one true dud, the 8th. And you know where to go for the 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html), right? :-)
Did David Hurwitz help write that review? Review is long but actual substance can be summed up in about 2 sentences. The rest of the review is just personally opinions with no facts included whatsoever.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 21, 2015, 07:33:47 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 20, 2015, 11:58:35 AMAnd you know where to go for the 8th (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/07/alles-vergngliche-ozawas-mahler-eighth.html), right? :-)

I just ordered the CD. I had it on LP years ago. It may have been pressed on defective vinyl, or ruined on a bad turntable setup before I bought it (used), but for non-musical reasons, it was unlistenable. My favorite M8s include Bernstein (Sony), Sinopoli, and Abbado, and I have never understood why Solti's is adored, cherished and revered, so this may be one I like.

I chose to buy Boulez' M2 only, not the box set. I bought his 6 and 7 when they came out, and they became discs I gave to friends who would otherwise have been Mahler-less. The Second is one I can listen to no matter who's conducting/performing. It's kind of like pizza and sex: even when it's not great, it's still pretty good.

Thanks again, Jens.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 21, 2015, 04:17:50 PM
Quote from: Jay F on June 21, 2015, 07:33:47 AM

I chose to buy Boulez' M2 only, not the box set. I bought his 6 and 7 when they came out, and they became discs I gave to friends who would otherwise have been Mahler-less. The Second is one I can listen to no matter who's conducting/performing. It's kind of like pizza and sex: even when it's not great, it's still pretty good.

Thanks again, Jens.

Funny... I think those are particularly strong w/Boulez. The Sixth over-all and all-over... and the Seventh for delivering the (second)most Meistersingerish Finale I know on disc. (After or alongside Klemperer; I've also heard it just that way with Nezet Seguin.)

Boulez M7 live: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/ionarts-at-large-boulez-mahler-in.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/ionarts-at-large-boulez-mahler-in.html)
Boulez M7 DG: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html)
(Boulez M6: yet to be revived for ionarts.)


Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2015, 02:20:47 PM
Did David Hurwitz help write that review? Review is long but actual substance can be summed up in about 2 sentences. The rest of the review is just personally opinions with no facts included whatsoever.

I need no one's help when it comes to writing insubstantial, opinionated reviews devoid of facts whatsoever, thankyouverymuch!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 21, 2015, 09:59:10 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2015, 02:20:47 PM
Did David Hurwitz help write that review? Review is long but actual substance can be summed up in about 2 sentences. The rest of the review is just personally opinions with no facts included whatsoever.

Music reviews do tend to involve the authors' opinions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 22, 2015, 02:56:57 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 20, 2015, 02:20:47 PM
Review is long but actual substance can be summed up in about 2 sentences.

That probably means Wagner wrote it.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on June 22, 2015, 05:17:40 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 21, 2015, 04:17:50 PM
Funny... I think those are particularly strong w/Boulez. The Sixth over-all and all-over... and the Seventh for delivering the (second)most Meistersingerish Finale I know on disc. (After or alongside Klemperer; I've also heard it just that way with Nezet Seguin.)


The Sixth under Boulez has an ever increasing tension and power which explode in the final movement.  The Seventh under him will make you think of Webern during the Nachtmusik movements.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 22, 2015, 05:26:25 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 22, 2015, 05:17:40 AM
Boulez ...  The Seventh under him will make you think of Webern during the Nachtmusik movements.

Hell no. Boulez's Seventh is great!


;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on June 22, 2015, 05:52:52 AM
Quote from: Ken B on June 22, 2015, 05:26:25 AM
Hell no. Boulez's Seventh is great!


;)

Heh-heh!  I also heard part of a broadcast of Boulez conducting the Seventh with the Chicago Symphony, and it maybe even surpassed his DGG recording, at least for the 15 minutes I heard.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 22, 2015, 01:13:02 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 22, 2015, 05:52:52 AM
Heh-heh!  I also heard part of a broadcast of Boulez conducting the Seventh with the Chicago Symphony, and it maybe even surpassed his DGG recording, at least for the 15 minutes I heard.

Since I was at that concert I'm just gonna say that it did.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 23, 2015, 03:42:40 AM
Quote from: Pat B on June 21, 2015, 09:59:10 PM
Music reviews do tend to involve the authors' opinions.

Yes, I did rather wonder myself exactly which facts were supposed to be included. Things like "there are 9 numbered symphonies"?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on June 23, 2015, 03:47:32 PM
Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 03:42:40 AM
Yes, I did rather wonder myself exactly which facts were supposed to be included. Things like "there are 9 numbered symphonies"?
"This recording is a CD. It is made of shiny plastic. When placed into a machine capable of reading it, the machine will produce sounds similar to a Mahler symphony. Mahler is currently a skeleton, but was formerly a human being who lived in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. At a certain point prior to writing this symphony, he was a baby."

Of course, you would need to provide citations for all those claims, but that's definitely a start
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 24, 2015, 03:16:10 AM
"This is Symphony No.2. It was written after Symphony No.1 but before Symphonies 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9."

Of course, with some composers you might not actually get away with that kind of statement...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 24, 2015, 08:15:06 AM
Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 03:42:40 AM
Yes, I did rather wonder myself exactly which facts were supposed to be included. Things like "there are 9 numbered symphonies"?

Well, whether something is played in tune, together, rhythmically as indicated in the score, properly balanced so all voices are audible, phrased as indicated in the score, etc. these are factual statements that can be made without getting into subjective issues.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 25, 2015, 02:06:23 AM
Quote from: MishaK on June 24, 2015, 08:15:06 AM
Well, whether something is played in tune, together, rhythmically as indicated in the score, properly balanced so all voices are audible, phrased as indicated in the score, etc. these are factual statements that can be made without getting into subjective issues.

I doubt that all of those things are as objective as you think. I've been reading a fair few reviews of both Shostakovich and Mahler in the last week, and it's perfectly possible to get one reviewer saying that the playing isn't polished enough and another reviewer saying it's great that the playing has the passion and drama the music needs, about the exact same performance. One reviewer might complain that the horns go out of tune a bit when they're fortissimo, another reviewer might delight in the same thing because it conveys the ugliness they think the composer was trying to depict. We don't actually have a universally shared agreement about what's important to the quality of a performance of a given work.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I think we had a conversation very much along these lines in a blind listening test (possibly Ravel's Gaspard de la nuit?) because the things you were looking for were almost exactly the opposite of the things I was looking for. Our conceptions of what the music needed were poles apart.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 25, 2015, 05:20:00 AM
I used the link that Jens provided to his review of the Mahler 8 conducted by Ozawa. I have almost nothing by him; so the claim that this is THE best 8th available raised my eyebrows. I have quite a few sets, including many of the ones mentioned. In addition I have the Wyn Morris and live Tennstedt, both of which I rate highly. So, in scepticism I went to Spotify. Outcome, I have ordered the Ozawa and will now do a bit of delving into his legacy. Thanks Jens, a shock of the right kind. It is as you describe it and it it the impressive ebb and flow of the second movement that I enjoy so much.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2015, 05:26:02 AM
Fascinating.  That was 1980, and well before the slouch into complacency.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 25, 2015, 05:39:06 AM
No I am in the UK, what an odd arrangement! Well, the last two tracks may tempt you to explore the recording in more depth.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2015, 05:55:32 AM
Quote from: knight66 on June 25, 2015, 05:20:00 AM
I used the link that Jens provided to his review of the Mahler 8 conducted by Ozawa. I have almost nothing by him; so the claim that this is THE best 8th available raised my eyebrows. I have quite a few sets, including many of the ones mentioned. In addition I have the Wyn Morris and live Tennstedt, both of which I rate highly. So, in scepticism I went to Spotify. Outcome, I have ordered the Ozawa and will now do a bit of delving into his legacy. Thanks Jens, a shock of the right kind. It is as you describe it and it it the impressive ebb and flow of the second movement that I enjoy so much.

Mike

That is very gratifying to hear, thanks much!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 25, 2015, 07:36:36 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 25, 2015, 05:55:32 AM
That is very gratifying to hear, thanks much!!

My pleasure: what else from him do you think is especially fine?

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 25, 2015, 08:22:35 AM
Quote from: orfeo on June 25, 2015, 02:06:23 AM
I doubt that all of those things are as objective as you think. I've been reading a fair few reviews of both Shostakovich and Mahler in the last week, and it's perfectly possible to get one reviewer saying that the playing isn't polished enough and another reviewer saying it's great that the playing has the passion and drama the music needs, about the exact same performance. One reviewer might complain that the horns go out of tune a bit when they're fortissimo, another reviewer might delight in the same thing because it conveys the ugliness they think the composer was trying to depict. We don't actually have a universally shared agreement about what's important to the quality of a performance of a given work.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I think we had a conversation very much along these lines in a blind listening test (possibly Ravel's Gaspard de la nuit?) because the things you were looking for were almost exactly the opposite of the things I was looking for. Our conceptions of what the music needed were poles apart.

I agree with Misha. Performances can be judged objectively. As we discussed recently in the Haydn thread, the objective aspects aren't always the most important, but they can always be described. However, some professional music critics aren't good arbiters of these things.

But I do also expect reviews to include a healthy dollop of subjective judgement, like the examples you gave. I consider delight in out-of-tune horns in some specific context to be a subjective judgement. That the horns are out of tune is objective; delighting in it is subjective.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on June 25, 2015, 08:31:51 AM
Quote from: knight66 on June 25, 2015, 07:36:36 AM
My pleasure: what else from him do you think is especially fine?

Mike

I think Mahler, generally, saw him at his best (that I know of).

His M2, both in the Boston Cycle but also with the Saito Kinen Orchestra, I think highly of: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html)

Boston #5 I have a memory of very much liking it...

Also the Saito Kinen M9: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html)

His Prokofiev (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SA89/goodmusicguide-20) is controversial but beautiful. (Or controversial because of it.)

I think highly of his Turangalila (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013AWX10/goodmusicguide-20)... although there's much competition with many excellent versions.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 25, 2015, 10:13:37 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 25, 2015, 08:31:51 AM
I think Mahler, generally, saw him at his best (that I know of).

His M2, both in the Boston Cycle but also with the Saito Kinen Orchestra, I think highly of: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html)

Boston #5 I have a memory of very much liking it...

Also the Saito Kinen M9: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html)

Thanks, I will follow up the suggestions.

Mike

His Prokofiev (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SA89/goodmusicguide-20) is controversial but beautiful. (Or controversial because of it.)

I think highly of his Turangalila (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013AWX10/goodmusicguide-20)... although there's much competition with many excellent versions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MishaK on June 25, 2015, 10:48:20 AM
Quote from: Pat B on June 25, 2015, 08:22:35 AM
As we discussed recently in the Haydn thread, the objective aspects aren't always the most important, but they can always be described. However, some professional music critics aren't good arbiters of these things.

Exactly. Sadly, few reviewers have the proper musical training to know what they are talking about. There are certain reviewers that routinely make me wonder whether they attended the same concert I did.

Quote from: Pat B on June 25, 2015, 08:22:35 AM
But I do also expect reviews to include a healthy dollop of subjective judgement, like the examples you gave. I consider delight in out-of-tune horns in some specific context to be a subjective judgement. That the horns are out of tune is objective; delighting in it is subjective.

Horns can sound 'ugly' in the sense of sounding brassy and rough (see e.g. Giardino Armonico in the Bach Brandenburgs), but they still shouldn't be out of tune. I don't think that is the quality that is being appreciated when delighting in the roughness of certain horns.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 25, 2015, 11:32:58 AM
Quote from: MishaK on June 25, 2015, 10:48:20 AM
I don't think that is the quality that is being appreciated when delighting in the roughness of certain horns.

You may be right. I have read many comments about intonation, with follow-ups that made it clear the author really meant tone.

ETA: though in the case of the Frère Jacques section of Mahler 1, I do like it to be a bit out of tune. In my response to orfeo I was imagining a dissonant effect (in Shostakovich, perhaps), but I can't think of any examples of that.

ETA: listening to Mahler 1 and I should say that it's one or two specific sections, not the entire 3rd movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on June 25, 2015, 06:51:26 PM
Mahler Update:
I liked No. 5, especially the finale, and all the ridiculous counterpoint (at many points i was like 'ok, are we really gonna do this? yeah, we're doing it'). The symphony doesn't stick as strongly in the memory as the finale of no. 3, but it's good fun and maybe I'll get a recording—definitely a thing I might want to listen to in the future.

No. 6 doesn't do much for me, still. It has its longueurs and the consistently angry passages in the outer movements reach the point of emotional exhaustion and 'inability to care'. Also I was following with the score and Dohnányi doesn't seem to emphasize the percussion parts enough, and uncharacteristically messes with dynamics and orchestration a lot, but maybe there's more than one edition, i don't know
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 25, 2015, 08:24:59 PM
Quote from: amw on June 25, 2015, 06:51:26 PM
No. 6 doesn't do much for me, still. It has its longueurs and the consistently angry passages in the outer movements reach the point of emotional exhaustion and 'inability to care'. Also I was following with the score and Dohnányi doesn't seem to emphasize the percussion parts enough, and uncharacteristically messes with dynamics and orchestration a lot, but maybe there's more than one edition, i don't know

I know what you mean. 6 took me a while to get into. 7 even longer. Now, though, I love both.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on June 26, 2015, 01:47:00 AM
Quote from: Pat B on June 25, 2015, 08:24:59 PM
I know what you mean. 6 took me a while to get into. 7 even longer. Now, though, I love both.
7 was somehow my favorite at first listen. I distinctly remember not liking 6, though, the first time I heard it. Now I love it almost as much as 7.

The finale of 7 is a bit odd, though still enjoyable. It seems over-inflated and strangely bombastic compared to the rest of the work (does anyone else get this?). Like Wagner's Meistersingers on steroids.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 26, 2015, 08:20:24 AM
Mahler's Sixth Symphony has been my favorite piece of classical music since the first time I heard it (1987), on Sony's first US CD release of Bernstein's version (green cover, released with the Eighth Symphony). I loved it immediately, and came to love the Eighth (I think) because the last movement of 6 rolled into the first of 8 on the middle CD. I've played those three CDs probably more than any other.

Perhaps because Bernstein's opening is so fast, I haven't ever really liked listening to other versions of the Sixth. I totally imprinted on it, and when I start another version, the first movement sounds off, and more often than not, I switch to Lenny. I'm more than happy to listen to any and all versions of my other favorites, Nos. 2, 3, 7, and sometimes 8. But not No. 6. It must be Bernstein's CBS/Sony version or it must go. There is an exception, however: I'm perfectly happy to land on anyone's version of the Andante.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 26, 2015, 04:20:32 PM
Quote from: Jay F on June 26, 2015, 08:20:24 AM
Mahler's Sixth Symphony has been my favorite piece of classical music since the first time I heard it (1987), on Sony's first US CD release of Bernstein's version (green cover, released with the Eighth Symphony). I loved it immediately, and came to love the Eighth (I think) because the last movement of 6 rolled into the first of 8 on the middle CD. I've played those three CDs probably more than any other.

Perhaps because Bernstein's opening is so fast, I haven't ever really liked listening to other versions of the Sixth. I totally imprinted on it, and when I start another version, the first movement sounds off, and more often than not, I switch to Lenny. I'm more than happy to listen to any and all versions of my other three favorites, Nos. 2, 3, 7, and sometimes 8. But not No. 6. It must be Bernstein's CBS/Sony version or it must go. There is an exception, however: I'm perfectly happy to land on anyone's version of the Andante.

:D MY first exposure to the sixth was through Barbirolli's NPO version back around 1975. DUM  - DUM - DUM - DUM to Bernstein's or Solti's dumdumdumdum .... :P I've always favoured Barbi's or Farberman's gloom and doom visions because of that initial exposure.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 27, 2015, 12:19:14 AM
@Jay F: Have you heard Kondrashin/Melodiya in #6? I think he is overall even more aggressive than Bernstein (although maybe not quite as fast in the first movement and IIRC he skips the repeat).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on June 27, 2015, 02:15:57 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 26, 2015, 08:20:24 AM
Mahler's Sixth Symphony has been my favorite piece of classical music since the first time I heard it (1987), on Sony's first US CD release of Bernstein's version (green cover, released with the Eighth Symphony). I loved it immediately, and came to love the Eighth (I think) because the last movement of 6 rolled into the first of 8 on the middle CD. I've played those three CDs probably more than any other.

Perhaps because Bernstein's opening is so fast, I haven't ever really liked listening to other versions of the Sixth. I totally imprinted on it, and when I start another version, the first movement sounds off, and more often than not, I switch to Lenny. I'm more than happy to listen to any and all versions of my other three favorites, Nos. 2, 3, 7, and sometimes 8. But not No. 6. It must be Bernstein's CBS/Sony version or it must go. There is an exception, however: I'm perfectly happy to land on anyone's version of the Andante.
Agreed! I love Bernstein's opening.

MTT is pretty fast at the beginning. I was listening to his the other day (just parts of it). Some weird things happen just after the first hammer-blow in the finale, though (orchestra not quite together).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 27, 2015, 07:05:40 AM
Quote from: André on June 26, 2015, 04:20:32 PM
:D MY first exposure to the sixth was through Barbirolli's NPO version back around 1975. DUM  - DUM - DUM - DUM to Bernstein's or Solti's dumdumdumdum .... :P I've always favoured Barbi's or Farberman's gloom and doom visions because of that initial exposure.
I don't think I've heard Farberman, but Barbirolli was one of the most disappointing, perhaps because I'd read such raves about it, and it took EMI a long time to release it on CD in the USA. After waiting so long, I was expecting or, more likely, hoping, to be blown away like the Maxell tape guy in the Le Corbusier chair, but it never got any more interesting than sitting and waiting for the bus.


Quote from: Jo498 on June 27, 2015, 12:19:14 AM
@Jay F: Have you heard Kondrashin/Melodiya in #6? I think he is overall even more aggressive than Bernstein (although maybe not quite as fast in the first movement and IIRC he skips the repeat).
This is one I came to like about ten years ago, and I continue to listen to it from time to time.


Quote from: EigenUser on June 27, 2015, 02:15:57 AM
Agreed! I love Bernstein's opening.

MTT is pretty fast at the beginning. I was listening to his the other day (just parts of it). Some weird things happen just after the first hammer-blow in the finale, though (orchestra not quite together).
Though MTT is not among my favorites in No. 6, I enjoy the sound quality of his Mahler cycle enormously when I listen to it on my iPhone (which I mention since you've mentioned you listen to classical at the gym). It's the only one I have on my iPhone, in fact.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on June 27, 2015, 01:28:53 PM
Quote from: André on June 26, 2015, 04:20:32 PM
:D MY first exposure to the sixth was through Barbirolli's NPO version back around 1975. DUM  - DUM - DUM - DUM to Bernstein's or Solti's dumdumdumdum .... :P I've always favoured Barbi's or Farberman's gloom and doom visions because of that initial exposure.

Barbirolli's 6th has been a steady favourite of mine, too.
IMO, he's making the work sound as it should sound like: WUCHTIG.

(I also like Glorious John's moaning and groaning. :))
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: xochitl on June 28, 2015, 12:19:56 AM
shout-out to Farberman's 6th!

one of the few that still give me the heebie jeebies
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: EigenUser on June 28, 2015, 02:40:58 AM
Quote from: Jay F on June 27, 2015, 07:05:40 AM
Though MTT is not among my favorites in No. 6, I enjoy the sound quality of his Mahler cycle enormously when I listen to it on my iPhone (which I mention since you've mentioned you listen to classical at the gym). It's the only one I have on my iPhone, in fact.
Mahler's 6th is a favorite for the gym! I've set so many PRs to it 8).

Really, though, the strings and brass fall apart for a few seconds just after the first hammer. It's painfully noticeable. Seems fine other than that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on June 28, 2015, 05:14:17 AM
I did some spot comparisons of M6 between Bernstein, Boulez and Barbirolli. Have to say Bernstein is the clear winner so far, though the sound's dated and I don't like his brass.

I'll come back to this piece in a while, time to move on now... it's still not my thing. Have to say I love the ending and its double subversion though. "Okay yeah we're going to aim for a bittersweet happy ending in the ma- oh, nope, there's that 'chaos chord' again. Alright well at least we can end in a dignified, solemn manner with this trombone chora-" *DUM. DUM. DADADUM DUM DUM.* Always makes me smile.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2015, 05:23:25 AM
I only know Bernstein's Vienna/DG recording, just realized that most people were probably talking about the NYC/CBS (Sony)...?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 28, 2015, 07:07:30 AM
I have never even heard of Farberman!
Meanwhile, any advance word on this?
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/635212036228.png)
Each symphony gets two CDs.  Live recordings from 2011.
SARGE ALERT!!!

Apparently Maazel went for the leisurely tempos throughout.
The Eighth has a total timing of 97'57!!!  About a minute or two shorter than many recordings of the Third .  The Seventh clocks in at 87'40 and the Ninth at 95'52,  including a 35 minute first movement.

Detailed track listing here
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_SIGCD362&utm_medium=DM&utm_source=DM201507&dm_i=10ZR,3GJPI,51XK73,CDRQ6,1
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 28, 2015, 07:45:59 AM
Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 28, 2015, 07:53:15 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 28, 2015, 07:45:59 AM
Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

No, it is a great composition, very dramatic with some fine orchestral writing. I just can't grasp it as a "symphony" in any sense of the word. Had it been called anything else but a symphony it probably wouldn't get half the negativity it sometimes gets.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2015, 07:53:31 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 28, 2015, 07:45:59 AM
Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

I shouldn't call it bad composition.  Part II is marvelous, IMO.  My own quarrel with Part I is not compositional, but more a quarrel with taking that musical tone to set the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus;  really just a difference in musical opinion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 08:02:59 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 28, 2015, 07:07:30 AM
Meanwhile, any advance word on this?
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/635212036228.png)
Each symphony gets two CDs.  Live recordings from 2011.
SARGE ALERT!!!

I have the first volume (1, 2, 3...the Resurrection is spectacular). Haven't picked up the second vol. (4, 5, 6) because his Vienna 4 (with Battle) is my favorite M4 and I really doubt that can be improved upon. I'm considering this last volume but haven't decided to commit. Will probably wait for reviews.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on June 28, 2015, 08:03:47 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 28, 2015, 07:45:59 AM
Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

It's a superb composition, grand, poignant and majestic. It only gets negativity from a vocal minority of the Talibanate of Orchestral Worshipers, who somehow get very upset at the idea that a composer can name his work differently from what they expect him to.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 08:10:17 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 28, 2015, 07:45:59 AM
Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?

Mahler thought it was his greatest work. The master has spoken. End of argument  ;)  When I heard it live (Boulez with the Staatskapelle Berlin) the 90 minutes passed so quickly I was actually shocked when the final chorus began. A thrilling first movement and an utterly mesmerizing second.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on June 28, 2015, 08:40:14 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 28, 2015, 08:03:47 AM
It's a superb composition, grand, poignant and majestic. It only gets negativity from a vocal minority of the Talibanate of Orchestral Worshipers, who somehow get very upset at the idea that a composer can name his work differently from what they expect him to.
Well, some of us are not members of that alleged Talibanate you mention, love the work of Gustav Mahler, and still have reservations about the 8th:

Quote from: ritter on April 24, 2015, 02:21:28 PM
My main objection to Mahler's Eighth (well, apart from the choristers singing their lungs out at the beginning..."Veni! Veni! VEEEENI!"  >:( ) is best described by this illustration:

(http://www.webislam.com/media/2013/09/58051_palanca_big.png)

It's as if the shorter, bombastic Part I could be balanced by the longer and quieter Part II...this is IMHO not the case, alas, and I think the piece has serious structural problems (well, and there's  that thing of the choristers singing their lungs out  ;) )...

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 08:10:17 AM
When I heard it live (Boulez with the Staatskapelle Berlin) the 90 minutes passed so quickly I was actually shocked when the final chorus began. A thrilling first movement and an utterly mesmerizing second.
I do admit that heard live, the Eighth can make a great impression...and yes, the final measures (from Mater Gloriosa's "Komm! Hebe dich zu höhern Sphären!" through the end) can only be described as sublime  :)

Cheers,
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2015, 08:53:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 28, 2015, 07:53:31 AM
I shouldn't call it bad composition.

I blush to consider that this sounds like pussyfooting.  Not bad in the least!  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 28, 2015, 09:13:49 AM
Chorus members singing their lungs out on that Veni is actually nothing compared to what Beethoven does in his Ninth, or even worse in the Missa Solemnis (which I have sung in)....take a look at the Credo in the MiSol., especially the et resurrexit.....et ascendit, and see how he abuses the human vocal system there (top or nearly top of the vocal range, held for a full staff at full volume!).  My throat remembers it to thus day,  nearly forty years later.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on June 28, 2015, 09:19:07 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 24, 2015, 02:21:28 PM
It's as if the shorter, bombastic Part I could be balanced by the longer and quieter Part II...this is IMHO not the case, alas, and I think the piece has serious structural problems (well, and there's  that thing of the choristers singing their lungs out  ;) )...

This is a classic example of how a work can fall victim to false expectations. There's no intrinsic reason why one part should "balance" the other. It could just as well be that one part completes, negates, juxtaposes, or acts as the preamble to the other. Ultimately, one should approach a musical composition such as this on its own terms and the composer's intentions and understanding becomes much easier. The Eighth may be described as an operatic scene opened by an ouverture-cantata to give a sense of its structure and still be perceived as a great choral symphony. Mahler knew very well what he was doing and I applaud him for it.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2015, 09:21:01 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 28, 2015, 07:45:59 AM
Is the 8th really that bad of a composition?
I can't really say. I hate it so much I can never really engage with it, and it's been 15 years since I even tried. I know perfectly sensible people of taste who like it. It was one friend's favourite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on June 28, 2015, 09:40:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 08:10:17 AM
Mahler thought it was his greatest work. The master has spoken. End of argument  ;)  When I heard it live (Boulez with the Staatskapelle Berlin) the 90 minutes passed so quickly I was actually shocked when the final chorus began. A thrilling first movement and an utterly mesmerizing second.

Sarge

Amen!  I heard it live in Cleveland, probably 20 years ago now, with Robert Shaw conducting the Cleveland Orchestra.

I have never had reservations about the work: complaints about it not being a "symphony" I really do not understand, since the musical and psychological links are present.  One of the theological and philosophical links between the two (seemingly disparate) texts is Mahler's musical assertion that the Creator Spiritus is Das Ewig-Weibliche.

Certainly one is free to reject that idea!   0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on June 28, 2015, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: Cato on June 28, 2015, 09:40:08 AM
I have never had reservations about the work: complaints about it not being a "symphony" I really do not understand, since the musical and psychological links are present.  One of the theological and philosophical links between the two (seemingly disparate) texts is Mahler's musical assertion that the Creator Spiritus is Das Ewig-Weibliche.

Unreservedly seconded.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on June 28, 2015, 10:37:46 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on June 28, 2015, 09:19:07 AM
This is a classic example of how a work can fall victim to false expectations. There's no intrinsic reason why one part should "balance" the other. It could just as well be that one part completes, negates, juxtaposes, or acts as the preamble to the other. Ultimately, one should approach a musical composition such as this on its own terms and the composer's intentions and understanding becomes much easier. The Eighth may be described as an operatic scene opened by an ouverture-cantata to give a sense of its structure and still be perceived as a great choral symphony. Mahler knew very well what he was doing and I applaud him for it.  8)
I must say I have never had any "false expectations" about the piece, and I've approached it "in itself", not in comparison to other Mahler symphonies (or those of any other composer, for that matter). Where you see a work in which one part "completes, negates, juxtaposes..." the other, I see a work that fails exactly in that endeavour  >:(... despite the sublime ending  :).

As far as intrinsic reasons for one part "balancing" the other, surely a sense of cohesion, of form, of structure is a virtue in musical composition (be it a short song, be it a mammoth choral-orchestral score), even when the composer thrives to overcome established or inherited forms. There's even a "secret of form in Richard Wagner"  ;). The form of the Eighth has elluded me for the 40 years I've been acquainted with the work  :(

And really, if Mahler had wanted to write an "operatic scene", he could just have gone ahead and composed an opera, don't you think? (God knows he was intimately familiar with the ins and outs of the operatic genre). Following that approach, we'd be led to conclude that the Eighth is a failure as a symphony and as an opera. But don't get me wrong: I don't view the work in that light, as I cannot see anything remotely operatic in the Eighth.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 28, 2015, 09:13:49 AM
Chorus members singing their lungs out on that Veni is actually nothing compared to what Beethoven does in his Ninth, or even worse in the Missa Solemnis (which I have sung in)....
Ah, the Missa Solemnis...another work whose virtues ellude me  :-[ . But (and don't get me wrong on this Jeffrey  ;) ), as a listener I'm not really bothered if Mahler or Beethoven abuse the capabilities of the perfomers, what bothers me is that they abuse the sensibilities of the audiences (in these specific works)... :D

Cheers,
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 28, 2015, 12:33:26 PM
I really like the 8th. More so than his 1st, 5th and 6th (runs away).


(Quickly returns) I do have a question concerning the 9th, what is the slowest 3rd mvt - Rondo on record?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2015, 12:41:36 PM
This is probably not answerable by just looking at timings because the middle section (with a variant of a theme from the finale) is much slower than the first section with the Rondo theme. And there are many I have not heard. But as far as I recall the earlier (1980s?) Gielen recording (originally on intercord) has one of the fastest last movements (21 min or so) and a rather slow Rondo Burleske.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 28, 2015, 12:33:26 PM
I really like the 8th. More so than his[....]5th and 6th (runs away).

I haven't been tempted to load my bazooka in many a moon, but I just may now!  >:(

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 28, 2015, 12:50:07 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 12:46:55 PM
I haven't been tempted to load my bazooka in many a moon, but I just may now!  >:(

Sarge

I knew you'd feel betrayed, Sarge. I deserve the bazooka.   :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on June 28, 2015, 12:52:08 PM
Quote from: ritter on June 28, 2015, 10:37:46 AM
The form of the Eighth has eluded me for the 40 years I've been acquainted with the work  :(

Have you followed it with a score?  Perhaps that would help?  The only thing I can say is that the musical structure is cohesive: through the miracle of Google Books, musicologist Richard Specht's famous analysis demonstrates this quite clearly, and he addresses right at the beginning the objections to the  work as a "symphony."

https://books.google.com/books?id=DUdGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=thematic+analysis+mahler%27s+Eighth+Symphony&source=bl&ots=E_QndDq3sg&sig=TrB2W8UVEd5b98thFQPb2AujaGs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zVyQVfjhLMSyggTIj7PABg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=thematic%20analysis%20mahler's%20Eighth%20Symphony&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=DUdGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=thematic+analysis+mahler%27s+Eighth+Symphony&source=bl&ots=E_QndDq3sg&sig=TrB2W8UVEd5b98thFQPb2AujaGs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zVyQVfjhLMSyggTIj7PABg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=thematic%20analysis%20mahler's%20Eighth%20Symphony&f=false)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 12:52:56 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 28, 2015, 12:50:07 PM
I knew you'd feel betrayed, Sarge. I deserve the bazooka.   :-[

Well, I can't shoot a man showing genuine contriteness  ;D

Actually, I should rejoice. You like the 8th...that's unusual, and admirable!

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on June 28, 2015, 01:06:42 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 28, 2015, 12:52:08 PM
Have you followed it with a score?  Perhaps that would help?  The only thing I can say is that the musical structure is cohesive: through the miracle of Google Books, musicologist Richard Specht's famous analysis demonstrates this quite clearly, and he addresses right at the beginning the objections to the  work as a "symphony."
Thanks for the link, Cato! No, I haven't followed the Eighth with a score, only on record and in live performance (where, as I've said before, it makes a great impression--an impression, I add now, that to a certain extent masks what I perceive as the weaknesses of the work). But just for the record: I have no objections with the work as a "symphony". I simply don't appreciate it as a whole per se.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on June 28, 2015, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Cato on June 28, 2015, 12:52:08 PM
Have you followed it with a score?  Perhaps that would help?  The only thing I can say is that the musical structure is cohesive: through the miracle of Google Books, musicologist Richard Specht's famous analysis demonstrates this quite clearly, and he addresses right at the beginning the objections to the  work as a "symphony."

https://books.google.com/books?id=DUdGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=thematic+analysis+mahler%27s+Eighth+Symphony&source=bl&ots=E_QndDq3sg&sig=TrB2W8UVEd5b98thFQPb2AujaGs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zVyQVfjhLMSyggTIj7PABg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=thematic%20analysis%20mahler's%20Eighth%20Symphony&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=DUdGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=thematic+analysis+mahler%27s+Eighth+Symphony&source=bl&ots=E_QndDq3sg&sig=TrB2W8UVEd5b98thFQPb2AujaGs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zVyQVfjhLMSyggTIj7PABg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=thematic%20analysis%20mahler's%20Eighth%20Symphony&f=false)

A salient excerpt:

QuoteBut there is no musician today who would cavil on formal grounds at the symphonic structur of the gigantic first movement, which is divided in clearest design; of First Part, development - with the famous great double fugue that takes up the main theme and the interweaving voices - the reprise and coda ("Gloria" of the choir of boys).  And  nothing could be easier than to distinguish in the Second Part the three sub-sections of an Andante ("Waldung sie schwankt heran"), of a Scherzo ("Jene Rosen aus der Haenden") and a Finale ("Alles Vergaengliche ist nur ein Gleichnis")...For, all of the Second Part is determined in its themes by the First Part; its motives have grown out of those in the beginning, and now attain their real significance, both in the musical view and in the cosmic vision that the whole work reveals..

(My emphasis above.)

Quote from: ritter on June 28, 2015, 01:06:42 PM
Thanks for the link, Cato! No, I haven't followed the Eighth with a score, only on record and in live performance (where, as I've said before, it makes a great impression--an impression, I add now, that to a certain extent masks what I perceive as the weaknesses of the work). But just for the record: I have no objections with the work as a "symphony". I simply don't appreciate it as a whole per se.

You are quite welcome: maybe the analysis will lead to an "Aha" moment when you listen again!  0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2015, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 12:46:55 PM
I haven't been tempted to load my bazooka in many a moon, but I just may now!  >:(

Sarge
Here, let me pass you the ammo!
:laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on June 28, 2015, 02:48:10 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 28, 2015, 07:53:31 AM
I shouldn't call it bad composition.  Part II is marvelous, IMO.  My own quarrel with Part I is not compositional, but more a quarrel with taking that musical tone to set the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus;  really just a difference in musical opinion.

I've always preferred the first movement, because of its density.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on June 28, 2015, 02:54:39 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 12:52:56 PM
Well, I can't shoot a man showing genuine contriteness  ;D

Actually, I should rejoice. You like the 8th...that's unusual, and admirable!

Sarge
That's right, Sarge. You keep him distracted while I sneak around behind him ...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 28, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
Quote from: Ken B on June 28, 2015, 02:54:39 PM
That's right, Sarge. You keep him distracted while I sneak around behind him ...

:blank: 

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 29, 2015, 01:03:12 AM
I don't think there's anything wrong with the Eighth on a basic compositional level. It's just that, as I've said before in relation to the only recording that I'm familiar with, I don't enjoy listening to that length of over-the-top joyousness. It becomes tiresome. Happy shouting is fun for a while, but then you're over it.

Someone mentioned Beethoven's 9th. Sure, the finale of Beethoven's 9th is a big ode to joy, but it's just one movement out of four, and it's about 20 minutes of joyousness, not about 75 minutes.

I might say I've had much the same reaction to some experiences of opera, such as certain parts of Wagner's Ring. Siegfried and Brunnhilde singing ecstatically of their love for each other is good for a while, but there comes a point where I desperately want them to move on.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on June 29, 2015, 04:35:14 AM
The best fatboy CD set ever (from $1.99+):

[asin]B00000DS76[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on June 29, 2015, 09:30:47 AM
Someone mentioned Beethoven's 9th.

That was me.  I was comparing it not on the basis of how the listener might react, but on the basis of what the chorus is expected to sing.  If uttering the top note of your vocal range for several bars at top volume can properly be called singing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 29, 2015, 10:59:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 28, 2015, 08:02:59 AM
I have the first volume (1, 2, 3...the Resurrection is spectacular).
Sarge

oh, you had to say that, didn't you...  >:D

damn it....  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2015, 11:34:08 AM
Yea, or Nay?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517BdKwf85L._SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 12:24:48 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2015, 11:34:08 AM
Yea, or Nay?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517BdKwf85L._SX425_.jpg)

Of course there's lots of Yay in this... but by a rigid standard: Nay
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on July 02, 2015, 12:43:14 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2015, 11:34:08 AM
Yea, or Nay?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517BdKwf85L._SX425_.jpg)

HUGE YEA

HUGE
HUGE
HUGE YES BUY THIS

Superlative 5, maybe the best I have heard. Nothing less than good, some incredibly great, and no #8!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: Ken B on July 02, 2015, 12:43:14 PM
HUGE YEA

HUGE
HUGE
HUGE YES BUY THIS

Superlative 5, maybe the best I have heard. Nothing less than good, some incredibly great, and no #8!

No. 5 *is* pretty darn good. But  easily available as a stand-alone. And for his 9th, the Oehms is crazier, still. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2015, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 12:55:36 PM
No. 5 *is* pretty darn good. But  easily available as a stand-alone. And for his 9th, the Oehms is crazier, still. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html)

A 32 min finale? Wowzer. Thanks for the link, Jens.


Quote from: Ken B on July 02, 2015, 12:43:14 PM
Superlative 5, maybe the best I have heard. Nothing less than good, some incredibly great, and no #8!

You're such a 8ter.   :-[  :)
Thanks for the reply, Ken.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on July 02, 2015, 02:17:56 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2015, 01:47:18 PM
A 32 min finale? Wowzer. Thanks for the link, Jens.


You're such a 8ter.   :-[  :)
Thanks for the reply, Ken.

It's the best cycle, as far as 8 goes!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 02, 2015, 08:01:28 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on July 02, 2015, 12:55:36 PM
No. 5 *is* pretty darn good. But  easily available as a stand-alone. And for his 9th, the Oehms is crazier, still. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/05/mtt-in-mahlers-9th.html)
I like the set.  But Jens is very right about that Munich 9th.  It is one of four in my top echelon for M9.  The other three being Zinman, Maderna, and (dark horse time!) Dudamel.

ETA. His Salzburg 2nd can skipped with no regret.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 02, 2015, 11:14:52 PM
I got the Levine Box when it came out dirt cheap. I think the 3rd is also quite famous but I never got around listening to more than two discs or so. As far as I remember I was not all that happy with the 5th (the only thing I distinctly remember), especially the sound. Both in terms of "artificial" sound quality and inappropriate "American brass" (which many Chicago fans probably love but I not so much for Mahler). I have kept the set because it is a fairly slim box and the day might come when I'll be glad to have it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on July 03, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2015, 11:34:08 AM
Yea, or Nay?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517BdKwf85L._SX425_.jpg)

Yea, if you really dig chest hair!!  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jfdrex on July 03, 2015, 11:57:11 AM
Yea!  But with reservations.  (How's that for equivocation? ;))

Given that the set involves three very different orchestras recorded in at least three different venues in the early days of digital recording, and is lacking Nos. 2 & 8*, it's not a "library reference" set.  Moreover, I've never been crazy about Levine's interpretations of Nos. 1 & 4 in particular.  Nonetheless, be that as it may, I'm glad to have this set in my collection.  And it's certainly worth the low price of admission just for the performance of Symphony No. 3.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on July 03, 2015, 12:11:16 PM
Quote from: jfdrex on July 03, 2015, 11:57:11 AM
... Nonetheless, be that as it may, I'm glad to have this set in my collection.  And it's certainly worth the low price of admission just for the performance of Symphony No. 3.
That Third was a favourite of my father's (a fervent mahlerian). I have fond memories of seeing this cover in his collection:

(http://991.com/NewGallery/Mahler-Symphony-No-3-in-533934.jpg)

I should listen to it again sometime soon, after so many years...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on July 03, 2015, 12:14:23 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 03, 2015, 09:45:17 AM
Yea, if you really dig chest hair!!  :D
Gone 8 months and you post about chest hair!  ::) :laugh:
Welcome back!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 03, 2015, 11:58:19 PM
Quote from: ritter on July 03, 2015, 12:11:16 PM
That Third was a favourite of my father's (a fervent mahlerian). I have fond memories of seeing this cover in his collection:

(http://991.com/NewGallery/Mahler-Symphony-No-3-in-533934.jpg)

This certainly deserves a place in the gallery of funny and appropriate covers!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on July 04, 2015, 10:44:34 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 03, 2015, 11:58:19 PM
This certainly deserves a place in the gallery of funny and appropriate covers!

It's by Maurice Sendak!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 04, 2015, 06:46:16 PM
Tuesday (7th July) is Mahler's birthday... and mine!

I've ordered the BBC recording of Horenstein conducting Das Lied. I hope it arrives in time for me to listen to it on that day and say "Happy Birthday Gustav".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on July 05, 2015, 12:56:35 PM

Dip Your Ears, No. 198 (Mahler Transcribed)


Mahler Doubling Down on Ivory

What do you give the Mahlerian who already has everything and of each Symphony
five or twenty recordings? Why, piano transcriptions of those symphonies—in this
case of Symphonies One and Two, arranged by ...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00CGUSRVG.01.L.jpg) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/07/dip-your-ears-no-198-mahler-transcribed.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 05, 2015, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: Pat B on July 04, 2015, 10:44:34 AM
It's by Maurice Sendak!
Wow, interesting! "Where the wild things are" is still one of the greatest children's books. (My brother absolutely loved it. Even as an adult he had a poster with the wild things (I got that one from a friend's mother who worked at a bookstore) for some time in his room and one gf once gave him a few "wild things" as stuffed plush animals.)
That creature on the left with the torch almost looks like one of the wild things "dressed up" in 18th century garb.

Mahler is visited by an angel in his "Komponierhäuschen" in the Tyrolian mountains and the animals seem to be inspired by the erstwhile title of the 3rd? movement: "What the animals in the forest tell me" (Was mir die Tiere im Walde erzählen). The boar on the right blows the posthorn solo from that movement, the rabbit or hare the trombone solo from the first movement.

I'd like to have poster of that cover...

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on July 06, 2015, 05:03:32 AM
Quote from: Ken B on July 03, 2015, 12:14:23 PM
Gone 8 months and you post about chest hair!  ::) :laugh:
Welcome back!

:laugh:  Thanks, Ken.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on July 06, 2015, 08:35:08 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on July 05, 2015, 11:51:34 PM
Wow, interesting! "Where the wild things are" is still one of the greatest children's books. (My brother absolutely loved it. Even as an adult he had a poster with the wild things (I got that one from a friend's mother who worked at a bookstore) for some time in his room and one gf once gave him a few "wild things" as stuffed plush animals.)
That creature on the left with the torch almost looks like one of the wild things "dressed up" in 18th century garb.

Mahler is visited by an angel in his "Komponierhäuschen" in the Tyrolian mountains and the animals seem to be inspired by the erstwhile title of the 3rd? movement: "What the animals in the forest tell me" (Was mir die Tiere im Walde erzählen). The boar on the right blows the posthorn solo from that movement, the rabbit or hare the trombone solo from the first movement.

I'd like to have poster of that cover...

Yes! It's titled "What the Night Tells Me," which is apparently an abandoned or alternate title for the 4th movement. I'm not aware of posters of it, but the vinyl LP is findable.

Since you seem interested: he also designed several opera productions. I know there are posters for The Magic Flute from Houston.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 06, 2015, 08:49:29 PM
Well, the CD arrived (Horenstein Das Lied), and I listened to it for both our birthdays.

The sound is amazingly good compared to the other Bruckner and Mahler BBC Horensteins and it's instantly become my favourite Lied. The only slight reservation I have is is that both singers make a few mistakes in pronouncing the German (my German is hopeless, but you can tell they're not native speakers).

;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 07, 2015, 03:57:15 AM
I hope no-one gets offended by what I am about to say. After having listened to that giant last movement of 8th, I start to get one of my problems with Mahler: he just keeps hammering the same point in over and over and over again: God is mighty etc. I have no problem with religion itself, several of my favorite operas and books are religious, but the point is: they have other messages too. Mahler mostly adds human voice to his symphonies only to sing always about the exact same thing. And Mahler seems to forget that there are other aspects in religion too which could be explored. But no, almost always the same thing. Erde is one of the exceptions where it gets a little more varied. Sure, it has its religious tones too (especially the last movement) but that is much more subtle and varied and in general it's more about the aspects of life rather than after-life. No wonder it's the song of the earth since it explores about what happens here on earth rather than in heaven. But for ex. in 8th symphony, like someone here already said, he shouts for 55 minutes in a row about the same thing. At those moments Mahler reminds me of those people who come to ring my doorbell and want to talk about religion. Of course, with Mahler, I am the one who makes the decision to listen to his music. And I do want to listen to his music, he is a genius. But at times he seems repetitive and bombastic and too drawn-out (yes, ironic for a Wagner fan to say that), which is not helped by the fact that I often have hard time hearing clear melodies in his works at first.

I haven't heard the 8th enough times to say whether I like it or not. There were moments so beautiful it was spine-tingling.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: xochitl on July 07, 2015, 04:31:21 AM
i too often find Mahler as draining as listening to a preacher go on and on, but a supremely talented preacher who demands your attention tho you may disagree on the subject matter

i have a question to you experts: did Gustav drink at all? i have no idea. i was listening to the finale of symphony #1 after a few ipas and it just spoke to me like never before. BTW this is the first time ive ever listened to Mahler tipsy. i usually reserve the pleasure for beethoven or heavy metal but this is pretty great
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 07, 2015, 04:35:57 AM
Quote from: xochitl on July 07, 2015, 04:31:21 AM
i have a question to you experts: did Gustav drink at all?

An essential part of being a genius is drinking like a horse  8) Seriously though, I don't know. He could be an absolutist for all I know.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2015, 04:51:21 AM
In his youth, following the "teachings" of Wagner, Mahler became a vegan and gave up alcohol. However, in later life he regained his sanity and was a moderate drinker and meat eater  8)


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2015, 05:02:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2015, 04:51:21 AM
In his youth, following the "teachings" of Wagner, Mahler became a vegan and gave up alcohol. However, in later life he regained his sanity and was a moderate drinker and meat eater  8)


Sarge

Admiring Wagner and giving up alcohol is a lethal combination  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on July 07, 2015, 05:33:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2015, 04:51:21 AM
In his youth, following the "teachings" of Wagner, Mahler became a vegan and gave up alcohol. However, in later life he regained his sanity and was a moderate drinker and meat eater  8)

Sarge

"In his youth, following the "teachings" of Wagner, Mahler became a vegan and gave up alcohol. However, in later life he regained lost his sanity..."

Fixed that for you. (who knows how many works his later carnivorous ways cost us?  maybe I should consult Dr. Dean Ornish on this matter).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 07, 2015, 05:54:01 AM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on July 07, 2015, 05:33:14 AM
"In his youth, following the "teachings" of Wagner, Mahler became a vegan and gave up alcohol. However, in later life he regained lost his sanity..."

Fixed that for you. (who knows how many works his later carnivorous ways cost us?  maybe I should consult Dr. Dean Ornish on this matter).

Mahler's heart condition and his health in general are nicely summarized here:

http://www.hektoeninternational.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=366 (http://www.hektoeninternational.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=366)

An excerpt:

Quote...Dr. Blumenthal reassured Frau Mahler that her health was fine. Then, as if on whim, he examined the maestro, only to discover a heart murmur, becoming the first to discover Mahler's rheumatic valve disease. Eventually confirmed by the famed Viennese cardiologist Friedrich Kovacs, Mahler's diagnosis, the sounds of which likely meant mitral stenosis and regurgitation, required a strict regimen of rest; Kovacs even forced Mahler to carry a pedometer to measure (and thus limit) his exertion. Although typical for that time, these restrictions made Mahler feel like an invalid, filling his brain with thoughts of imminent death. The result was the Ninth Symphony of 1909.

In his Harvard Lectures of 1973 Leonard Bernstein stated that the opening bars of the Ninth are indeed "an imitation of the arrhythmia of his failing heartbeat."6 While insightful, Bernstein's observation is medically incorrect: in fact, the opening bars reflect a rendition of Mahler's murmur. He and his wife had long become painfully aware of the sound, as Frau Mahler noted, "for years I had been frightened by the whistling sound that could be heard very loudly on the second beat."7...

I am not quite so sure that the Ninth was the "result" of this diagnosis: I am sure that Mahler would have continued composing without such a specific diagnosis.  What might be argued is that the nature of his Ninth Symphony arose because of the knowledge of his heart's condition.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on July 08, 2015, 06:11:28 AM
Quote from: Alberich on July 07, 2015, 03:57:15 AM
I hope no-one gets offended by what I am about to say. After having listened to that giant last movement of 8th, I start to get one of my problems with Mahler: he just keeps hammering the same point in over and over and over again: God is mighty etc. I have no problem with religion itself, several of my favorite operas and books are religious, but the point is: they have other messages too. Mahler mostly adds human voice to his symphonies only to sing always about the exact same thing. And Mahler seems to forget that there are other aspects in religion too which could be explored. But no, almost always the same thing. Erde is one of the exceptions where it gets a little more varied. Sure, it has its religious tones too (especially the last movement) but that is much more subtle and varied and in general it's more about the aspects of life rather than after-life. No wonder it's the song of the earth since it explores about what happens here on earth rather than in heaven. But for ex. in 8th symphony, like someone here already said, he shouts for 55 minutes in a row about the same thing. At those moments Mahler reminds me of those people who come to ring my doorbell and want to talk about religion. Of course, with Mahler, I am the one who makes the decision to listen to his music. And I do want to listen to his music, he is a genius. But at times he seems repetitive and bombastic and too drawn-out (yes, ironic for a Wagner fan to say that), which is not helped by the fact that I often have hard time hearing clear melodies in his works at first.

I haven't heard the 8th enough times to say whether I like it or not. There were moments so beautiful it was spine-tingling.

So far, the 8th is the only place that I've had this kind of reaction.

Mind you, I still have about 6.5 numbered symphonies to go. There was a blind listening of the 2nd that told me enough to know that not all Totenfeiers or Urlichts are created equal, without telling me the identity of the Totenfeiers and Urlichts that I liked. The worst of all possible results?

But yes, I like the 5th, and Das Lied von Erde, and the three shorter song cycles I have, and the two movements of the 2nd that I know. At this stage I assume I basically have a problem with the 8th, not with Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 08, 2015, 04:40:18 PM
I think a lot of negative reactions to the 8th are caused by not being German/Austrian and therefore not having any exposure to the whole Faust thing.

I've read translations of Faust (both parts) and I can't see what the fuss is about. Ergo I'm a bit cool on the 8th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2015, 12:50:07 AM
Your second statement seems to contradict the first, or what am I missing? Do you think that the translation is the problem?

I do not think readers of German do love the final scene from Faust II (a very "esoteric" piece, although the words of the very last "chorus" are well known, the first part of Faust is much better known and usually read in school) so much that they THEREFORE love Mahler's 8th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 09, 2015, 06:49:57 AM
Intriguing. I like the second part of Faust probably more.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 09, 2015, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 08, 2015, 04:40:18 PM
I think a lot of negative reactions to the 8th are caused by not being German/Austrian and therefore not having any exposure to the whole Faust thing.

I've read translations of Faust (both parts) and I can't see what the fuss is about. Ergo I'm a bit cool on the 8th.

What I meant in my second statement was I have read translations of Faust, I don't think it's a great piece of literature therefore I don't listen the 8th very often, or enjoy it much when I do.

There is a phenomenon of a work of literature which really only works in the language it was written in, because the beauty of the language conceals the problems with it. Specifically with Faust, if Goethe wanted to write a complex neo-platonic allegory, why use a creaky old medieval morality play as the framework?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2015, 11:04:43 PM
It's certainly not my call to defend Goethe's Faust as my only qualification is that of German speaker who has read both parts.
But it has a long and complex history. There was an "Urfaust" Goethe had sketched in the 1770s, even closer to the medieval play and the first part in its final form was written 2 decades before the second part was finished. The first part is not all that allegorical and in any case neo-platonist elements would not be out of place for a renaissance magician and alchemist like Faust.

But this was not really my point. Rather that I do not think that Mahler's 8th can draw all that much on the popularity of the final scene of Faust II in Germany or Austria. Because that final scene is not very famous (compared to lots from the first part), except for the words of the finale chorus.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 10, 2015, 06:59:14 AM
Faust should have been titled Mephistofeles, because he is clearly a superior character to Faust. Not that Faust himself is bad one, in any way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on July 11, 2015, 09:42:15 AM
(In posts I've collected over years from the Mahler Board, here are some interesting thoughts regarding the Mahler 8th, all written by Barry Guerrero)

In many ways, the 8th summarizes everything that had happened in western music up to that very moment. At the very least, that's certainly true for the Austro-German line of composers. In a way, the 8th is the Beethoven's 9th of the Belle Epoch, or Art Nouveau ear. At the start of Part II, Mahler is "tone painting" in the classic way that Schubert or others would have. He's setting the scene for Goethe's text. But then the music shifts into Wagner-like episodes, beginning with the first loud outburst, and going all the way until the first entrance of the children's chorus (right after the bass baritone solo). At the point Mahler switches to Mendelssohn, with strong overtones of his "Midsummer Night's Dream". At the very least, you could certainly argue that the text for the three penitent women is well worth ignoring, unless you take the whole issue of  redemption quite seriously, or literally.

Mahler tried to express all this in a letter to wife his; one in which he became a bit tongue-tied. He tried to make it clear that the focus was on the "Chorus Mysticus" and what it was that Goethe was attempting to express with it. It's little wonder that "cosmic", psychedelic children of the '60s could relate so easily relate to Mahler. Goethe and Mahler are sort of making an acid trip of the soul. As with so many other "heaven storming" moments throughout his entire oeuvre, Mahler reveals heaven as little more than sheer energy - a much more medieval idea of what heaven is about. It's simply too bright and powerful to observe or comprehend from Earth.

So what am I saying?   .    .     .   forget the text, once you've read the bloody thing. All that truly matters is the tone painting aspects of Part II, and then the final "Chorus Mysticus".
In the 8th symphony, it's the very beginning. It becomes much more obvious during the big double fugue. The inversion of the "Veni, Creator Spiritus" theme is used as a second subject during the fugue. Deryck Cooke made the interesting observation that in Mahler's 8th, it's the liturgical text that receives the march treatment, while the secular text - Goethe's text - receives the chorale treatment (for the most part). That's just the opposite of what one would expect.


I had stated that there was no more "heaven storming" a composer than Gustav Mahler. I think it's interesting to note how heaven is musically represented by Mahler. At the end of the "Resurrection" symphony, the church organ and pious-sounding brass are accompanied by the tolling of deep bells and tam-tams (large gongs of unspecified pitch). This sort of brings the temple to the church, as the gongs introduce an Asiatic flavor. In the fourth symphony, the child's view of heaven is, indeed, sitting around on puffy white clouds; but with plenty of earthly food to devour, and with earthly games to play as well. If Mahler's piano rolls are to be taken seriously, those clouds float along at a fairly good clip, too. But before we get to the fourth movement of the fourth symphony, the climax of the slow movement is the second of Mahler's several portrayals (sp?) of heaven being little more - from the human perspective, that is (hence, existentialist) - as a blinding source of energy - something that can not be fully perceived or viewed by mere mortals. Mahler gives us his first "heavenly portrait" - one in which heaven is sheer, blinding energy - at the climax of the long brass chorale in M3/6. Right at the last cymbal crash, Mahler writes a fully harmonized, fortissimo brass chorale with a pedal point "D" in the bass - the home key of the sympony. Musically speaking, it's as though Bach meets Wagner.

But the greatest of these "sheer energy" portraits of heaven is at the end of the eighth symphony. Here, Mahler brings back the church organ (a huge one!); brings back the gong and cymbals; brings back the solid, fixed pedal point in the bass (accompanied with a bass drum roll, no less), and divides his brass between onstage and offstage forces. In many ways, it sums up all of Western music up to that pre-WWI (pre-disullusionment) point.



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on July 16, 2015, 03:55:16 AM
Belated update on my ~Mahler Journey~ *w*

I have kept the Leonard Bernstein (NYPD) version of No. 6 on standby in case I ever feel like coming back to it. (the piece—I have not heard the recording, but apparently it literally changed Jay F's life and can cure cancer and improve your car's fuel efficiency) So far, not yet.

No. 7 is a mixed bag and I admit I got a bit bored at various points in the first movement and Nachtmusiken. That said the second movement gets stuck in one's head very easily, so that's a plus. The finale is kind of bombastic, but yknow, Mahler. (I sort of liked it actually, though I sort of wish it had a less generic main theme instead of Standard Mahler Main Theme Involving Descending Fourths #27)

I liked No. 8 quite a bit actually. It's the Mahler opera we never got and, particularly in Part II, it can abandon symphonic logic for the pacing of the theatre (something that would have greatly benefited the finale of the Resurrection tbh). Musically it doesn't at all come across as a loose series of episodes due to the fact that the musical materials generating the entire symphony are few in number and extremely simple—he's no longer trying to stuff 62 different main ideas into a symphony à la Wagner, but instead looking back at Beethoven who generally used no more than three. This creates a sense of unity even where none exists that can be 'proven by analysis'. Anyways if I could find a recording with 8 solo singers with acceptable voices, I'd probably get it and listen to it like, once every 5 years or something.

Next time: 9 and 10
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 16, 2015, 04:07:41 AM
Quote from: amw on July 16, 2015, 03:55:16 AM

I liked No. 8 quite a bit actually. It's the Mahler opera we never got and, particularly in Part II, it can abandon symphonic logic for the pacing of the theatre (something that would have greatly benefited the finale of the Resurrection tbh). Musically it doesn't at all come across as a loose series of episodes due to the fact that the musical materials generating the entire symphony are few in number and extremely simple—he's no longer trying to stuff 62 different main ideas into a symphony à la Wagner, but instead looking back at Beethoven who generally used no more than three. This creates a sense of unity even where none exists that can be 'proven by analysis'.

Allow me to quote this from earlier: Specht would probably disagree with your last statement.


Quote from: Cato on June 28, 2015, 12:52:08 PM
Have you followed it with a score?  Perhaps that would help?  The only thing I can say is that the musical structure is cohesive: through the miracle of Google Books, musicologist Richard Specht's famous analysis demonstrates this quite clearly, and he addresses right at the beginning the objections to the  work as a "symphony."

https://books.google.com/books?id=DUdGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=thematic+analysis+mahler%27s+Eighth+Symphony&source=bl&ots=E_QndDq3sg&sig=TrB2W8UVEd5b98thFQPb2AujaGs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zVyQVfjhLMSyggTIj7PABg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=thematic%20analysis%20mahler's%20Eighth%20Symphony&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=DUdGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=thematic+analysis+mahler%27s+Eighth+Symphony&source=bl&ots=E_QndDq3sg&sig=TrB2W8UVEd5b98thFQPb2AujaGs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zVyQVfjhLMSyggTIj7PABg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=thematic%20analysis%20mahler's%20Eighth%20Symphony&f=false)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on July 16, 2015, 04:25:34 AM
Fair enough! I didn't analyse the thing at all, just listened to it. Certainly the ear hears the relationships between sections even when a quick glance at the score doesn't reveal anything that initially looks like a relationship. The structure makes sense when you're listening.

(Also to whoever said it was loud and shouty, that honestly applies to about 10 minutes in total of a 90 minute piece. It's not any worse than any other Mahler symphony in that regard. Just happier and less angry and depressed and stuff)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 16, 2015, 04:32:27 AM
Quote from: amw on July 16, 2015, 04:25:34 AM
(Also to whoever said it was loud and shouty, that honestly applies to about 10 minutes in total of a 90 minute piece.

Thank you. I've never understood that criticism (that the Eighth is a bombastic 90 minute scream fest). It's like they're hearing a totally different work, one I've never heard.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2015, 04:35:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 16, 2015, 04:32:27 AM

Quote from: amw on July 16, 2015, 04:25:34 AM
(Also to whoever said it was loud and shouty, that honestly applies to about 10 minutes in total of a 90 minute piece. It's not any worse than any other Mahler symphony in that regard. Just happier and less angry and depressed and stuff)

Thank you. I've never understood that criticism (that the Eighth is a bombastic 90 minute scream fest). It's like they're hearing a totally different work, one I've never heard.

Sarge

Oh, agreed.  At this point I can tolerate Part I (if I don't think of the text as an ancient hymn, for instance);  but at first listen, yes, I was so put off by the initial shouts, that it was a couple of years before I even tried Part II.

Part II is so exquisite, that if I tolerate Part I, it is because Part II is too wonderful to do without   0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 16, 2015, 04:33:32 PM
Quote from: amw on July 16, 2015, 04:25:34 AM
Fair enough! I didn't analyse the thing at all, just listened to it. Certainly the ear hears the relationships between sections even when a quick glance at the score doesn't reveal anything that initially looks like a relationship. The structure makes sense when you're listening.

(Also to whoever said it was loud and shouty, that honestly applies to about 10 minutes in total of a 90 minute piece. It's not any worse than any other Mahler symphony in that regard. Just happier and less angry and depressed and stuff)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 16, 2015, 04:32:27 AM
Thank you. I've never understood that criticism (that the Eighth is a bombastic 90 minute scream fest). It's like they're hearing a totally different work, one I've never heard.

Sarge

Amen!  I first heard the Eighth via the London Philharmonic/Leonard Bernstein performance from 1966.  The waves of sound were just great, even on a crappy 1960's stereo, and I never found the work oppressive in any way.   
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 25, 2015, 03:22:53 PM
I've been listening to this.

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.554811.gif)

I think the Wheeler performing version of 10th is more Mahlerian than the Cooke version.

What do other people think?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 25, 2015, 04:10:44 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 25, 2015, 03:22:53 PM
I've been listening to this.

(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.554811.gif)

I think the Wheeler performing version of 10th is more Mahlerian than the Cooke version.

What do other people think?

Not sure it is more Mahlerian (and what exactly does "Mahlerian" mean?), but it is a good recording, worth having in one's CD racks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 26, 2015, 05:32:26 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 25, 2015, 04:10:44 PM
(and what exactly does "Mahlerian" mean?)

Yelling about the exactly same thing in almost every work for hour and a half?  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 26, 2015, 05:58:08 PM
Quote from: Alberich on July 26, 2015, 05:32:26 AM
Yelling about the exactly same thing in almost every work for hour and a half?  ;)

What I mean by "mahlerian" above is if you listen to the Ninth, then listen to a performing version of Tenth, whichever version sounds more like something that Mahler would have written next (the Wheeler version in my view).
Title: Mahler 5, MTT/Boston, live from Tanglewood
Post by: bhodges on August 13, 2015, 07:29:42 AM
A friend alerted me to this video, recorded live at Tanglewood on July 25: Michael Tilson Thomas and the Boston Symphony Orchestra, in an apparently tremendous Mahler Fifth Symphony, plus Emanuel Ax in Mozart Piano Concerto No. 14.

http://www.wgbh.org/programs/The-Boston-Symphony-Orchestra-in-Concert-1641#63792

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on August 22, 2015, 10:49:42 AM
A thought I just had while listening to Mahler 6 at the Proms. The Ninth is (as far as I'm aware) the only one of Mahler's symphonies not to have a theme/motif that recurs in a later movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on August 22, 2015, 11:22:37 AM
An important theme of the last movement of the Ninth occurs already in the "trio"-like contrasting section of the "Rondo Burleske"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on August 23, 2015, 11:58:56 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 22, 2015, 11:22:37 AM
An important theme of the last movement of the Ninth occurs already in the "trio"-like contrasting section of the "Rondo Burleske"

Is it? I haven't spotted that myself. Unless it's really obvious (like in the same key or at least the same rhythm), I struggle to spot recurrences of themes. For instance, it took me years to work out exactly which theme the idée fixe in Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique was.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on August 23, 2015, 11:31:01 PM
I think it is fairly obvious (more so than anything in the 7th or 3rd I could think of, but I do not know these pieces so well). The passage in the Rondo-Burleske sticks out very strongly because it is the first/main lyrical episode in that hectic and angry piece. The correspondence is the second main theme of the last movement. Both are characterized by a "turn".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on August 24, 2015, 01:00:25 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 23, 2015, 11:31:01 PM
I think it is fairly obvious (more so than anything in the 7th or 3rd I could think of, but I do not know these pieces so well). The passage in the Rondo-Burleske sticks out very strongly because it is the first/main lyrical episode in that hectic and angry piece. The correspondence is the second main theme of the last movement. Both are characterized by a "turn".

I just had a quick listen to that section in the Rondo-Burleske and I can hear it now. The theme that appears as a counterpoint in fortissimo horns at the recapitulation of the finale's first theme.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2015, 03:33:04 PM
Went to a concert featuring Symphony 3 in London tonight (BBC SO, Oramo). What an extraordinary work. I have never heard it in concert before and for some reason am largely unfamiliar with it  :o. I very much enjoyed it and you can see how this influenced Shostakovich for example. The symphony is a bit mad but my attention was gripped throughout. Is Horenstein the best CD version? The only one I have is Boult conducting the BBC SO with Kathleen Ferrier (1947).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on September 24, 2015, 03:52:17 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 24, 2015, 03:33:04 PM
Went to a concert featuring Symphony 3 in London tonight (BBC SO, Oramo). What an extraordinary work. I have never heard it in concert before and for some reason am largely unfamiliar with it  :o. I very much enjoyed it and you can see how this influenced Shostakovich for example. The symphony is a bit mad but my attention was gripped throughout. Is Horenstein the best CD version? The only one I have is Boult conducting the BBC SO with Kathleen Ferrier (1947).

I only had his version on LP, and the sound was awful. I never bought it on CD.

My favorites are Bernstein's first version, Michael Tilson-Thomas', and Esa-Pekka Salonen's M3. But it's one of those pieces that works no matter who does it. Some also like Solti, but I had the bad fortune of having a visually perfect, sonically horrendous version of the LP, and I could never listen to it again. It got me to stop buying classical records, actually.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vandermolen on September 24, 2015, 04:05:15 PM
Quote from: Jay F on September 24, 2015, 03:52:17 PM
I only had his version on LP, and the sound was awful. I never bought it on CD.

My favorites are Bernstein's first version, Michael Tilson-Thomas', and Esa-Pekka Salonen's M3. But it's one of those pieces that works no matter who does it. Some also like Solti, but I had the bad fortune of having a visually perfect, sonically horrendous version of the LP, and I could never listen to it again. It got me to stop buying classical records, actually.

Hope this helps.
That is really helpful - thank you. I have ordered the Bernstein Sony boxed set of the complete Mahler symphonies for £14 on Amazon which is incredibly inexpensive. At the moment I'm enjoying Boult's 1947 performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wieland on September 25, 2015, 05:22:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 24, 2015, 04:05:15 PM
That is really helpful - thank you. I have ordered the Bernstein Sony boxed set of the complete Mahler symphonies for £14 on Amazon which is incredibly inexpensive. At the moment I'm enjoying Boult's 1947 performance.
That's a good choice, with Lennys first cycle (on vinyl) I became familiar with Mahler. That actually was my starting point of becoming seriously involved with classical music. I had the great fortune to have been in the audience of Avery Fisher Hall when Lenny conducted Mahler 2 and 3 for the DGG cycle. Two of my most thrilling concert experiences.
The above mentioned Esa-Pekka Salonen is also one of my favourites. Of MTT I know only the LSO recording which I did not find that special, probably his SFSO remake is preferable at least from what I have of that cycle. I still have a soft spot for the Horenstein and also for the 1960 Mitropoulos in Cologne, but that is in mono.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 28, 2015, 10:52:53 AM

Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

SEP 28, 2015
Gergiev Starts Munich Tenure With Mahler

...The concert opened inauspiciously when a man who didn't bother to introduce himself (it was
Hans-Georg Küppers, head of Munich's Department of Culture) gave a dry speech of the self-
congratulatory (or circle-jerk) variety which wasted everyone's time... except it might plausibly
have been used to cover the fact that the maestro was stuck in traffic, coming in from the airport.
(If that wasn't the case on this occasion, with Valery Gergiev as music director, that scenario
isn't far fetched at all.)...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/28/gergiev-starts-munich-tenure-with-mahler/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/09/Gergiev__Valery_Alberto_Venzago-1940x1290.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/28/gergiev-starts-munich-tenure-with-mahler/)
Valery Gergiev
Photo courtesy Munich Philharmonic
© Alberto Venzago


latest on ionarts:
Grigory Sokolov refuses Cremona Music Award because this Guy's also on the List

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RebBSswW8ws/Vge6_PUcbXI/AAAAAAAAIlc/Px9fBvCYHyE/s640/Sokolov_refuses_prize_because_List_also_includes_Norman_Lebrecht_cremona_ru.png)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/09/grigory-sokolov-refuses-cremona-music.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/09/grigory-sokolov-refuses-cremona-music.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 28, 2015, 12:11:05 PM
The Third is the first Mahler symphony I heard in concert (Mehta, with Maureen Forrester). For my money the Horenstein is still the yardstick by which to judge others. But I also adore the old Haitink Concertgebouw (Forrester again). I have lstened to many, many performances and most don't match the frisson and elation I got from the studio Horenstein and Haitink performances.

The Third is often thought of as a complicated, garrulous, posturing, picturesque and overlong work. That is not true. Inasmuch as one is able to go through the 2nd and 5th symphonies and find one whistling as a bell while shaving the morning after, I don't see why the third should prove hard to digest. Actually I find Beethoven's Pastoral harder  to chew than this Mahler symphony, filled as it is with candy floss, guimauve and assorted bonbons.

The Horenstein versions boasts the impressive LSO horn section, the Haitink boasts the whole orchestra's impressive roaster and, going farther down the Wizard of Oz golden road, I find Bernstein's NYPO a superb alternative.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2015, 02:21:53 PM
Quote from: André on September 28, 2015, 12:11:05 PM
The Third is the first Mahler symphony I heard in concert (Mehta, with Maureen Forrester). For my money the Horenstein is still the yardstick by which to judge others. But I also adore the old Haitink Concertgebouw (Forrester again).

Horenstein and Haitink are my top picks also (I've known the Horenstein since 1972). I'm also fond of Levine's M3 in which he brings out the dark undercurrents in the bimm bamm movement.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vandermolen on September 29, 2015, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: André on September 28, 2015, 12:11:05 PM
The Third is the first Mahler symphony I heard in concert (Mehta, with Maureen Forrester). For my money the Horenstein is still the yardstick by which to judge others. But I also adore the old Haitink Concertgebouw (Forrester again). I have lstened to many, many performances and most don't match the frisson and elation I got from the studio Horenstein and Haitink performances.

The Third is often thought of as a complicated, garrulous, posturing, picturesque and overlong work. That is not true. Inasmuch as one is able to go through the 2nd and 5th symphonies and find one whistling as a bell while shaving the morning after, I don't see why the third should prove hard to digest. Actually I find Beethoven's Pastoral harder  to chew than this Mahler symphony, filled as it is with candy floss, guimauve and assorted bonbons.

The Horenstein versions boasts the impressive LSO horn section, the Haitink boasts the whole orchestra's impressive roaster and, going farther down the Wizard of Oz golden road, I find Bernstein's NYPO a superb alternative.
Thank you.  :)
The Horenstein Unicorn version is rather expensive so I gave ordered a Horenstein live recording which was well reviewed. I agree with your comments about Symphony 6 and it was wonderful to hear it live. Didn't Alma Mahler complain that he had written the whole thing for the drum? What struck me was the influence it must have had on Shostakovich.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 09, 2015, 05:57:53 AM

Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

NOV 8, 2015
Bang-Bang: The European Union Youth Orchestra's
Summer Shenanigans


...Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as surprise...

A good youth orchestra has at its disposal a terrific weapon of surprise, namely
that it somehow lulls you into suspecting less than you would from a big name
professional orchestra... and then delivers more...

It should be surprising, actually, if a good youth orchestra were not better than
their professional colleagues on anything but an exceptional day. So I cannot
feign particular surprise at the performance of Mahler's Fifth Symphony at the
2015 Grafenegg Festival by the EUYO, which was of a quality that established
bands would well be glad to achieve.

Punchy and poignant, the symphony was tight but elaborate, well-articulated
but without exaggeration. It was Mahler as good as one can decently wish for...
not a rare, glorious moment in Mahler-Five history, but as the on-demand
stream from Austrian Radio confirmed to me a few weeks after the same initial
impression in concert: This Fifth – and especially its first movement – could
have withstood a good deal of competition in an over-crowded market of re-
corded Fifths...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/08/bang-bang-the-european-union-youth-orchestras-summer-shenanigans/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/11/Forbes-EUYO_Grafenegg_Bang_bang.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/08/bang-bang-the-european-union-youth-orchestras-summer-shenanigans/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on November 09, 2015, 06:45:17 AM
" For those seven that survived."

Many thanks for the review, Jens!  Can you explain the last sentence of the review?  Is it a glitch of some sort?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on November 09, 2015, 11:22:48 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 09, 2015, 06:45:17 AM
" For those seven that survived."

Many thanks for the review, Jens!  Can you explain the last sentence of the review?  Is it a glitch of some sort?

Did you read the whole of it? It refers to the BANG-BANG game they played on tour.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2015, 03:19:41 AM
I've been listening to Michael Finnissy's string trio, an old recording by The Gagliano Trio which someone sent me last week.

Anyway, according to Gramophone's review of the recording, the music is inspired by Mahler 9 in several ways. The review mentions Mahler's use of "melodic archetypes" in the symphony - "small melodic units which embrace a wide range of emotional states." Apparently Finnissy does the same.

I'd like to find out more about these melodic archetypes, not least because it reminds me of some concepts in early music. Has anyone explored the idea?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on December 18, 2015, 10:32:55 PM
The Meaning of Mahler
(http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/meaning-gustav-mahler/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on December 19, 2015, 09:43:26 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on December 18, 2015, 10:32:55 PM
The Meaning of Mahler
(http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/meaning-gustav-mahler/)

Nice report. I'm listening to Tennstedt today, #2, now #3.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on December 25, 2015, 12:11:39 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on December 18, 2015, 10:32:55 PM
The Meaning of Mahler
(http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/12/17/meaning-gustav-mahler/)

Thanks Tassos, an interesting piece.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 01, 2016, 09:19:09 AM
Slipped Disc reports the sad news of Gilbert Kaplan's passing (http://slippedisc.com/2016/01/sad-news-gilbert-kaplan-has-died/). Kaplan devoted most of his life to Mahler, and the Second symphony in particular. RIP.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 01, 2016, 01:19:32 PM
Very sad news indeed. I have always avoided buying one of his recordings of the Resurrection, all the while keeping an eye on articles and critics. Until now. I just bought for peanuts the IMP (Conifer) version, the one with the glorious alto of Maureeen Forrester. It's the disc he sponsored with his own money. After that he never had to put his hands in his pockets again.

RIP and let's glory in the music. How appropriate he zeroed on a piece called Auferstehung (Resurrection)

(http://www.cdbiblio.com/eingang/cdimages/img_mahler/mahler0005.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ehJkNY2WL.jpg)


By the time he re-recorded the work, he had taken a slightly more elastic view (broader tempi here and there).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on April 14, 2016, 12:55:46 AM
latest on ionarts... or actually just dusting off of a post that has languished for almost ten years after WETA dumped their blog including the Mahler survey I wrote for them. Here is, at nearly-last (Symphony 4 has yet to be restored), the Introduction:

Gustav Mahler – A Brief Introduction

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_HHFGspBp8E/Vw7ogVS0JYI/AAAAAAAAJDs/VFFAyuxBa54PIQe2kaCiYGpIXm0GLld3wCLcB/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_Introduction.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-brief-introduction.html)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-brief-introduction.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-brief-introduction.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 11, 2016, 02:22:07 AM


Boston Symphony's Gift To Mahler In Vienna (http://bit.ly/BSO-in-Vienna)

...And that was achieved, and with perfectly hushed tones in the bargain, interrupted only by the
marimba ringtone of a goddamned iPhone, the owner of which was undoubtedly tarred and
feathered and thrown into the Danube Canal immediately following the concert...

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/05/BostonSO_Musikverein_Marco-Borggreve_Andris-Nelsons-1200x798.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/05/10/boston-symphonys-gift-to-mahler-in-vienna/ (http://bit.ly/BSO-in-Vienna)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 11, 2016, 02:45:25 AM
Good to read, thanks. Although I enjoy Nelson's Shostakovich, I hope we get wider samples of his performances from DG. I always enjoy his Mahler and for that matter his Wagner etc, etc. Glad we already have a deal od Strauss and some Stravinsky as well as the best New World Symphony that I know of.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on May 11, 2016, 05:52:20 AM
Quote from: knight66 on May 11, 2016, 02:45:25 AM
Good to read, thanks. Although I enjoy Nelson's Shostakovich, I hope we get wider samples of his performances from DG. I always enjoy his Mahler and for that matter his Wagner etc, etc. Glad we already have a deal od Strauss and some Stravinsky as well as the best New World Symphony that I know of.

Mike

Not to forget a SUPERB account of the Beethoven and Berg concertos (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002A9ZNHO/goodmusicguide-20)... second, in that combo, only to Faust-Abbado... if that. The LvB is particularly special for Nelsons, the Berg for the violinist.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on May 11, 2016, 09:06:30 AM
I was lucky to catch my addiction when he was in Birmingham and I could get to see him. Here's hoping he feels inclined to come to the Edinburgh Festival some time.

Mike
Title: Complete Mahler (audio/video) w/Eschenbach/Paris
Post by: bhodges on May 13, 2016, 03:41:04 PM
This may have been posted before, but here are all of Mahler's symphonies, filmed by François Goetghebeur, with Christoph Eschenbach and the Orchestre de Paris. Can't vouch for the interpretive qualities (haven't watched any - just found out about this a few minutes ago), but still...all of the symphonies in what looks like superb audio and video...for free.

http://www.christoph-eschenbach.com/mahler/#movnav

--Bruce
Title: Re: Complete Mahler (audio/video) w/Eschenbach/Paris
Post by: ritter on May 14, 2016, 12:12:51 AM
Quote from: Brewski on May 13, 2016, 03:41:04 PM
This may have been posted before, but here are all of Mahler's symphonies, filmed by François Goetghebeur, with Christoph Eschenbach and the Orchestre de Paris. Can't vouch for the interpretive qualities (haven't watched any - just found out about this a few minutes ago), but still...all of the symphonies in what looks like superb audio and video...for free.

http://www.christoph-eschenbach.com/mahler/#movnav

--Bruce
I saw the Fourth live at the Salle Pleyel with these forces in 2009, and it was a memorable performance (the symphony was preceded by the Rückert-Lieder, also with Christine Schäfer). I don't know whether it was the same concert that was filmed, though, as I didin't notice any cameras in the hall.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on June 12, 2016, 06:04:45 AM
This month's BBC MUsic Mag includes a very good Mahler 9 recorded live at a 2014 prom by the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under their recently departed conductor Donald Runnicles. It is a great shame for us in Scotland that he has now gone. This performance is well worth catching. It is a successful and moving interpretation. It proves how fine even the regional orchestras of countries really are and how well the BBC sound engineers are now catch what is played in the Royal Albert Hall. The sound is close up and detailed.

There are reviews on-line of the concert to help people decide whether to give the recording a try and of course stuck to the magazine, it may well be the cheapest recording on the market.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on August 03, 2016, 07:28:59 PM
On YouTube someone has posted Bernard Haitink's Mahler "Keerstmatinees" with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, recorded in the hall. There are seven, I believe - all but Nos. 6 and 8. Here's No. 1, recorded in 1977, and it's a beauty.

http://www.youtube.com/v/HJqUPtF1UxU

--Bruce
Title: Upcoming broadcast: Levine at Ravinia in Mahler 2
Post by: bhodges on August 09, 2016, 05:40:07 AM
Next Monday, WFMT.com will broadcast James Levine with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and Chorus in Mahler's Symphony No. 2. The concert was taped July 23 at the Ravinia Festival, and was the first time Levine had returned to the festival since 1993.

http://blogs.wfmt.com/offmic/2016/08/08/wfmt-broadcast-james-levines-return-ravinia/

EDIT: To clarify, the broadcast will be audio only, not video. Available both on the WFMT.com website, and on the radio.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Upcoming broadcast: Levine at Ravinia in Mahler 2
Post by: NikF on August 09, 2016, 08:16:10 AM
Quote from: Brewski on August 09, 2016, 05:40:07 AM
Next Monday, WFMT.com will broadcast James Levine with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and Chorus in Mahler's Symphony No. 2. The concert was taped July 23 at the Ravinia Festival, and was the first time Levine had returned to the festival since 1993.

http://blogs.wfmt.com/offmic/2016/08/08/wfmt-broadcast-james-levines-return-ravinia/

--Bruce

Looks interesting. Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Simula on August 14, 2016, 07:37:18 AM
I love Mahler's 11th Symphony! Best piece in the world!
Title: Lucerne Festival: Chailly Mahler 8 on Arte
Post by: bhodges on August 14, 2016, 08:20:54 AM
Last Friday, Riccardo Chailly opened the 2016 Lucerne Festival with the Mahler Eighth, and it's available for viewing on Arte here:

http://concert.arte.tv/fr/riccardo-chailly-dirige-le-concert-douverture-du-festival-de-lucerne

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on August 14, 2016, 08:56:21 AM
Quote from: Simula on August 14, 2016, 07:37:18 AM
I love Mahler's 11th Symphony! Best piece in the world!

Absolutely terrific. Heard it performed at the Salzburg Festival some years ago! (With Rattle)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/09/notes-from-salzburg-festival-15th-and.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/09/notes-from-salzburg-festival-15th-and.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on August 29, 2016, 03:25:37 AM
I'm beginning to realise how the Adagietto of the Fifth Symphony is quite literally a beautiful interruption. Bearing in mind that the horn effectively has the last word in the scherzo, ending on an A. Which is exactly the same note with which the same solo horn begins the finale (albeit in a different dynamic). It's like the horn is saying "Right then, where were we?" before continuing on the journey from the previous three movements.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on September 08, 2016, 12:08:12 PM
This evening I listened to this:

Quote from: Marc on September 08, 2016, 11:23:40 AM
Mahler, Symphony no. 4 in G-Major
Barbara Bonney, soprano
Wiener Philharmoniker
Conductor: Riccardo Muti

(Live radio broadcast recording of May 8th, 1995, as part of the Mahler Feest in the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam)

[...]

https://www.youtube.com/v/p-e5cngpkr4

I think this is truly a great performance.
Just could not stop listening.
The Wiener are in top shape here, and Bonney is perfect for the closing song.
Lucky those who were at the Festival that day.
(I couldn't afford the tickets, of course.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2016, 12:16:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 08, 2016, 12:08:12 PM
The Wiener are in top shape here, and Bonney is perfect for the closing song.

I agree that Bonney has the perfect voice for this music (she's featured in the Chailly/Concertgebouw recording, and I love her in that). I'll have to listen to this Muti performance.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on September 08, 2016, 12:25:21 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 08, 2016, 12:16:39 PM
I agree that Bonney has the perfect voice for this music (she's featured in the Chailly/Concertgebouw recording, and I love her in that). I'll have to listen to this Muti performance.

Sarge

AFAIK, there are no worldwide commercial issues of these Festival performances.
I recall an impressive 9th with Abbado on the Dutch radio. Another electrifying performance.

There's a very pleasant DVD, with interviews with the conductors (IIRC Haitink, Muti, Abbado, Rattle and Chailly), combined with rehearsal clips.
It's called Conducting Mahler.
Officially OOP, but maybe still available somewhere...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 08, 2016, 11:03:57 PM
Quote from: Marc on September 08, 2016, 12:25:21 PM
There's a very pleasant DVD, with interviews with the conductors (IIRC Haitink, Muti, Abbado, Rattle and Chailly), combined with rehearsal clips.
It's called Conducting Mahler.
Officially OOP, but maybe still available somewhere...

Good stuff. There were really two Mahler DVDs in that series, if I remember correctly. Still remember some of the quotes from watching that, which must be 12, 13 years back, now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on September 08, 2016, 11:09:46 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on September 08, 2016, 11:06:37 PM
I LOVE Mahler, what is the best box? So that I don't have to youtube him anymore

Ps. I already own a few of his Symphonies
BOULEZ IS THE GREATEST MAHLER INTERPRETER OF ALL TIME and Gielen coming in second place. I don't know if Gielen's recordings come in a box but Boulez's certainly do!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on September 08, 2016, 11:28:56 PM
Quote from: jessop on September 08, 2016, 11:09:46 PM
I don't know if Gielen's recordings come in a box ...
Et voilà:

[asin]B000269QUM[/asin]
It includes the adagio only from the 10th, not the whole Deryck Cooke completion (which Gielen did record and is available on a separate disc). Also, no Das Lied von der Erde (again, available under Gielen on a single disc).

Cheers,

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on September 08, 2016, 11:31:22 PM
I don't think I would be going for Boulez as my main choice for Mahler's works. It depends whether you want a single view of his soundworld or do you just want good recordings of as much as possible as reasonably as possible. I find Boulez too cool and sane and Bernstein too hyper-emotional. I also dislike Haitink's non-interventionalist approach.

I have very much enjoyed Bertini's set and it has gathered a lot of praise over the years.

I sugget the following EMI compolation of the complete works, available very inexpensively.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gustav-Mahler-Complete-Works-Anniversary/dp/B003D0ZNWY/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1473405800&sr=1-1&keywords=Mahler+complete


This has a number of classic performances, some go back to Furtwangler, Barbirolli, others take in Rattle and other living musicians. I have a number of these recordings, so don't have the box itself, but I suggest it if you want a full set of the works, not just the symphonies. As to sets by one conductor, for me I prefer Chailly or Abbado or Sinopoli.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 12:50:47 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on September 08, 2016, 11:06:37 PM
I LOVE Mahler, what is the best box? So that I don't have to youtube him anymore

Ps. I already own a few of his Symphonies


Gustav Mahler – A Brief Introduction

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-brief-introduction.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-brief-introduction.html)

Contrary to the opinion below, I find Boulez absolutely not cold or analytical, except for the 3rd... in which I actually very much appreciate him. His First and especially Fifth are warm and emotional; the Sixth is brutal and gloves-off... all in all, and given the price, I actually would join the recommendation for Boulez's set.



(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71fd-5ms4UL._SX522_.jpg)
Complete Mahler, Pierre Boulez
DG (http://amzn.to/2cHrrKZ)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71sa-tpDWdL._SX522_.jpg)
Complete Mahler, Michael Gielen
Haenssler (http://amzn.to/2cHtn6m)


I think his First, Second, Fifth Sixth, Seventh are top drawer; among my favorites in each of those symphonies... and the Third [in Boulez-stereotypical way], too.

There is one total dud, the Eight. Just. not. good. at. all. But every set has at least one dud and usually more... or simply a lower average across the board. So that's not a concern. Replace it with Ozawa (http://amzn.to/2cisxi1).

Gielen, the recommendation of whose set I would also second, has his dud in the 4th, where the singer sounds like she has designs on cannibalizing Haensel... i.e. more witch than angel. Replace it with Haitink/Chicago (http://amzn.to/2caNj1x). I love Gielen's additional pieces on the individual discs which are, alas, not included in the box. Note that the Classics Today ratings are to be taken with a grain of salt; Hurwitz wrote the liner notes for the whole series... then gave them 10/10 ratings more or less throughout. Sketchy. Still, it's a great over all set.

There's something to be said about Bertini (EMI) and Tennstedt (EMI), but I find them too milquetoast. If you are interested in way too much about Mahler and recordings, the Mahler Survey here (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html)) might be of interest. The first ever set is terrific, still: Kubelik (http://amzn.to/2c4hbRf)... a good standard from which to explore Mahler into different directions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on September 09, 2016, 01:13:39 AM
jlaurson i agree with your thoughts on Boulez Mahler 3 and imo it is the least good. Gielen's Mahler 3 is imo one of the strongest of his Mahler recordings though! It really sounds like it encompasses the whole world more than any other Mahler 3!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on September 09, 2016, 02:03:40 AM
Quote from: jessop on September 09, 2016, 01:13:39 AM
jlaurson i agree with your thoughts on Boulez Mahler 3 and imo it is the least good. Gielen's Mahler 3 is imo one of the strongest of his Mahler recordings though! It really sounds like it encompasses the whole world more than any other Mahler 3!
One thing that Boulez does get very right (IMO, at least) in his Third is how the oboe plays the passages marked "hinaufziehen (wie ein Naturlaut" in the fourth movement. Quite stiunning indeed. In more general terms, the "Boulez-stereotypical way" that Jens points out suits this "excessive" symphony particularly well, and the Frenchman's grasp of the "long form" manages to keep the whole piece (which sometimes can sound "episodic") remarkably coherent. Still my go to Third is Abbado's first with Vienna on DG (not least for Jessye Norman's sublime rendition of O Mensch).

I too was disappointed by Boulez's Eighth, and some of the vocal soloists were not up to the task, IMO. I read somewhere that Boulez recorded the piece just to complete his cycle, as he had previously had doubts about the need of committing it to disk.  I myself am not much of an admirer of the work, but do enjoy Ozawa's and Sinopoli's recordings of it.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on September 09, 2016, 03:52:14 AM
My relative unfamiliarity with no. 8 does indeed make my judgement rather flawed when considering which Boulez Mahler is the least good. Perhaps it is no. 8, but I have heard some Mahler 3s I like a little more than Boulez's. Not to say I don't like it at all! Boulez is still my go to conductor for anything Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on September 09, 2016, 05:50:53 AM
Boulez does very well with Mahler, from what I've heard.
His 9th with Chicago is really excellent, one of the very best, esp the inner movements.

Overall, my favorite Mahler conductors are Solti, Walter, Abbado, who all made consistently fine recordings of Mahler symphonies and song cycles.
Reiner and Giulini did not leave big Mahler discographies - but what they did record is truly superb - Reiner - #4, and DLvDE [Lewis,Forrester]
Giulini's #9 is my overall favorite, a great performance, stunning playing by the CSO. His CSO Mahler #1 is also top-notch, my favorite overall, brilliantly played and recorded [EMI]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 09, 2016, 05:54:34 AM
The purpose of a boxed set is not to get the best performances around. There is no such thing. I see it more as a way to get a specific viewing angle on the corpus, one that is both interesting and rewarding. I don't think Boulez fits the bill in that regard. Some Amazon reviewers point to the variability of the results. I have not heard all of them, but I have not been tempted to pursue after hearing 1, 3, 5, 8 and 9.

With that "specific" sound/conception in mind, I like the sets by Bernstein in NY and that of Inbal in Frankfurt. Haitink's COA set is also a favourite, although I may be one of the very few to hold that position  :D . I actually prefer his latest views on the 2nd and 3rd (Chicago) and 9th (BRSO). Gielen's is an excellent set, with great production values but I find it emotionally constipated. Bernstein and Gielen complement one another in many ways. Get both for best results.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 09, 2016, 06:46:00 AM
Quote from: Heck148 on September 09, 2016, 05:50:53 AM

Reiner and Giulini did not leave big Mahler discographies - but what they did record is truly superb - Reiner - #4, and DLvDE [Lewis,Forrester]

Another for for the Reiner Das Lied and Sym #4, both essential listening. I particularly like Das Lied as it featured one of the very greatest Mahlerian singers in M. Forrester.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 06:53:01 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on September 09, 2016, 12:58:35 AM
Thanks for that! Is that your blog too?
Really well written.

Though I'm not a newbie to Mahler (the only symphonies I haven't heard is the 3rd and 4th.
I own the 1st, 7th and 9th. They're brilliant, though getting it over with and obtaining the entire cycle would be great!  :)

Indeed, more or less my blog, and the place where I learned to write. If that piece is well written, though, it's because it's been re-re-re-re-re-written so many times now... It was one of the first long pieces I wrote and was years in the making before it ever was published by WETA. And now I might take it apart and update it and put it together again, I feel... I've had a few years of low-level Mahler intensity and I feel like I might be ready again.

In fact, I willingly popped in a Mahler CD just now, that was still on the To-Listen-Mahler-Pile.

I know I didn't expect much of this, because I want my Sixth knock-out hard and biting and gritty and suspected that Zinman might go all soft and flabby on it. But when I heard that combo live at the Leipzig Mahler Fest (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-zinman-tonhalle.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-zinman-tonhalle.html)) I was very, very pleasantly surprised how good it sounded and how rough. Some of that seems to translate in the recording, one movement in. But he does of course take the movements in the correct, which is to say: wrong order.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cr6uTA5XEAA2Rjk.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Mahler w/@DavidZinman & #Tonhalle on RCA/@sonly_classical: Symphony ... http://ift.tt/2cj9DYk  (http://amzn.to/2c3uRJk)

The longer and more I listen to Mahler, the further I move away from Bernstein, it feels. I suppose I really only still absolutely love his Lied (DFD, King, Decca (http://amzn.to/2c5geIe)) Only Sarge was able to make me check out and subsequently really appreciate Solti in Mahler's Sixth (http://amzn.to/2c3Anvp)... otherwise I think Solti and Mahler are not a good mix and that famous Eighth makes me furious, because I think it's so wrong and stupid. Haitink I found too polite, but his last recordings, much like his late Bruckner, with different orchestras for different labels tended to be really terrific.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on September 09, 2016, 06:58:17 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 12:50:47 AM
. The first ever set is terrific, still: Kubelik (http://amzn.to/2c4hbRf)... a good standard from which to explore Mahler into different directions.

KUBELIK !!!  I wore out my vinyl records of his performances, especially the Sixth!

[asin]B00004SA86[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on September 09, 2016, 07:30:30 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 06:53:01 AM
I know I didn't expect much of this, because I want my Sixth knock-out hard and biting and gritty

Then Solti/CSO would be the runaway winner...really hard-edged and brutal - spectacular playing, and great recording...Solti does relent in the slow mvt however, which is lyrical and poignant...for me, the best Mahler 6 I've ever heard....recently heard Nelsons/BSO play it live - very fine, wonderful concert.

QuoteThe longer and more I listen to Mahler, the further I move away from Bernstein, it feels.

I tend to agree - I think Bernstein often tries too hard - he's trying to hit us over the head with how great this music is, instead of letting the music speak for itself...I love Lenny as a conductor, overall - he did so many things well, but I don't worship him as a Mahler conductor - tho his NYPO/CBS #7 was excellent, and so is his NYPO/DGG #3 remake is terrific also.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on September 09, 2016, 07:34:33 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 09, 2016, 06:46:00 AM
Another for for the Reiner Das Lied and Sym #4, both essential listening. I particularly like Das Lied as it featured one of the very greatest Mahlerian singers in M. Forrester.

Yes, Forrester is absolutely first-rate...The final song "Abscheid" is quite magical. Forrester sounds almost otherwordly - the ensemble between singer and orchestra is amazing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on September 09, 2016, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 08, 2016, 11:03:57 PM
Good stuff. There were really two Mahler DVDs in that series, if I remember correctly. Still remember some of the quotes from watching that, which must be 12, 13 years back, now.

I think you are referring to a 2nd DVD from 2004 with the documentary I Have Lost Touch With The World, which was made by the same director, Frank Scheffer. This documentary was filmed during Chailly's last season in Amsterdam and was, IIRC, entirely dedicated to Das Lied and Mahler 9. Mahler-connaisseur Henry-Louis de la Grange was interviewed for that one, too.

Some ten years ago, both DVD's were released for the international market in a 2-DVD boxset.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 09, 2016, 09:28:17 AM
Quote from: Heck148 on September 09, 2016, 07:30:30 AM
Then Solti/CSO would be the runaway winner...really hard-edged and brutal - spectacular playing, and great recording...Solti does relent in the slow mvt however, which is lyrical and poignant...for me, the best Mahler 6 I've ever heardso.

Solti's was my first M6 recording (have acquired 28 more since that purchase in the early 70s) and still my desert island pick.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 09, 2016, 11:24:36 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 08, 2016, 11:28:56 PM
Et voilà:

[asin]B000269QUM[/asin]
It includes the adagio only from the 10th, not the whole Deryck Cooke completion (which Gielen did record and is available on a separate disc). Also, no Das Lied von der Erde (again, available under Gielen on a single disc).

Cheers,

Gielen's Lied is wierd: the tenor movements were recorded ten years before the mezzo movements.  And the seams show.

My recommendation for a complete set for someone not like me (ie, not someone with 18 cycles) is Inbal,  good quality all the way through even if no one recording is the best.  Or Tilson Thomas, if your budget will stand the strain.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 01:44:22 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 09, 2016, 11:24:36 AM
Gielen's Lied is wierd: the tenor movements were recorded ten years before the mezzo movements.  And the seams show.

My recommendation for a complete set for someone not like me (ie, not someone with 18 cycles) is Inbal,  good quality all the way through even if no one recording is the best.  Or Tilson Thomas, if your budget will stand the strain.

True: Inbal is a good set, too. His Fourth is among the best, and his Seventh and Eighth are excellent... and there is, so far as I can remember and/or have heard them, no outright dud in the lot. The set is not in any interpretative way outrageous and wouldn't, I should think, pre-dispose you to any particular style of Mahler interpretation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2016, 01:58:22 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 01:44:22 PM
True: Inbal is a good set, too. His Fourth is among the best, and his Seventh and Eighth are excellent... and there is, so far as I can remember and/or have heard them, no outright dud in the lot. The set is not in any interpretative way outrageous and wouldn't, I should think, pre-dispose you to any particular style of Mahler interpretation.

Nice to see the support for Inbal, and especially the Fourth. One of my faves for sure.
Inbal's set (collected by Brilliant Classics) also offers Das Lied, but maybe not everyone will like the voice of Jard van Nes.

For a complete set, I would probably recommend, as other GMG members already did, Gary Bertini.

But I haven't made much new Mahler purchases in the last 10 to 15 years or so.
My Mahler collection is mainly a gathering of old (or dead) men.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2016, 02:04:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 09, 2016, 06:58:17 AM
KUBELIK !!!  I wore out my vinyl records of his performances, especially the Sixth!

[asin]B00004SA86[/asin]

Yeah, that's a great one, too.
Bertini, Kubelik, Haitink and Inbal are good examples for a solid 'starter's set'.
And IMO each of them is solid enough to remain the 'only' set, if one's love for Mahler is limited... or the contents of one's wallet.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 10, 2016, 06:26:27 AM
I discarded my Bertini set (as well as Chailly's). Kept only those by Inbal, Bernstein, Haitink and Abravanel.

Abravanel's Utah orchestra is very fallible. But I love the interpretations, and the sound is still spectacular.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 08:19:42 AM
Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 06:26:27 AM
I discarded my Bertini set (as well as Chailly's). Kept only those by Inbal, Bernstein, Haitink and Abravanel.

Abravanel's Utah orchestra is very fallible. But I love the interpretations, and the sound is still spectacular.

I never quite got Bertini, either... all fine, but was it really a better incarnation of Kubelik? I don't think I could get rid of Chailly... there are some gems among his Mahler... though a lot of them are actually the NON-Mahler pieces on those discs, I'll grant. His Fifth is still an audiophile dream. Seven, Six, Ten are good if I recall rightly; as is the Third even though I always found it rather overrated when it was outright raved about. Oh, and the Fourth with Babs Bonney is super.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsAFwTTWgAA7Frh.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Mahler No.1 w/@yle_rso & @hlintu on @ondineRecords
Not nearly a grim as he makes it look. A rather friendly and chirpy and charming
and great-sounding interpretation. Lots of nature and subtleties and softness,
but never boring or Zinmanish.   (#post_morninglisteningto#MahlerNo1wyle_rsoamphlintuonondineRecordsNotnearlyagrimashemakesitlookAratherfriendlyandchirpyandcharmingandgreat-soundinginterpretationLotsofnatureandsubtletiesandsoftnessbutneverboringorZinmanish)http://ift.tt/2cLo45W (http://ift.tt/2cLo45W)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 10, 2016, 11:07:54 AM
I forgot: I kept Kubelik and Levine's quasi cycle (RCA).

I did like Chailly in some of the symphonies (the 6th in particular has a high ooomph level). But what I'm after in a cycle is a point of view that is clear, consistent and easily distinguishable from others. That brings my level of understanding to a higher level, and sharpens my understanding of the music.

For the same reason as Chailly's Mahler, I recently discarded Colin Davis' Staatskapelle cycle of the Beethoven symphonies. Although it contains what is possibly the best Eroica I know. I'll repurchase it as a single. Having it alone in my collection will confer it its true meaning. Buried in a solid but comfy, laid back cycle of the 9 deprives it of its special stature.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 02:12:04 PM
Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 11:07:54 AM
I forgot: I kept Kubelik and Levine's quasi cycle (RCA).

I did like Chailly in some of the symphonies (the 6th in particular has a high ooomph level). But what I'm after in a cycle is a point of view that is clear, consistent and easily distinguishable from others. That brings my level of understanding to a higher level, and sharpens my understanding of the music.

For the same reason as Chailly's Mahler, I recently discarded Colin Davis' Staatskapelle cycle of the Beethoven symphonies. Although it contains what is possibly the best Eroica I know. I'll repurchase it as a single. Having it alone in my collection will confer it its true meaning. Buried in a solid but comfy, laid back cycle of the 9 deprives it of its special stature.

I like it. I like that approach very much.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 10, 2016, 04:12:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 10, 2016, 08:19:42 AM
I never quite got Bertini, either... all fine, but was it really a better incarnation of Kubelik? I don't think I could get rid of Chailly... there are some gems among his Mahler... though a lot of them are actually the NON-Mahler pieces on those discs, I'll grant. His Fifth is still an audiophile dream. Seven, Six, Ten are good if I recall rightly; as is the Third even though I always found it rather overrated when it was outright raved about. Oh, and the Fourth with Babs Bonney is super.


Have you viewed any of Chailly's DVD cycle?
I posted about the Second in the New Ears thread a couple of days ago,  and also have  the Eighth, which I found a bit hum-ho.  Have considered but never got any of the rest. Not even sure if, at this point, it's a complete cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on September 11, 2016, 08:17:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 06:53:01 AM
But he does of course take the movements in the correct, which is to say: wrong order.

Thanks for clearing that up. ;)

I'm an A-S man. I can't remember who thinks that right or wrong.

It seems a lot of people move away from Bernstein in Mahler. I haven't, at least not yet. A couple nights ago I watched his video 2nd from the 1970s and enjoyed it. Musically, that is; his podium antics might be more entertaining in other repertoire. And the sound was not ideal, though my ear adjusted quickly. But it is a great performance, with Janet Baker singing a beautiful Urlicht.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on September 11, 2016, 08:19:15 PM
Quote from: André on September 10, 2016, 11:07:54 AM
For the same reason as Chailly's Mahler, I recently discarded Colin Davis' Staatskapelle cycle of the Beethoven symphonies. Although it contains what is possibly the best Eroica I know. I'll repurchase it as a single. Having it alone in my collection will confer it its true meaning. Buried in a solid but comfy, laid back cycle of the 9 deprives it of its special stature.

This may be counterintuitive to some, but it makes perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on September 11, 2016, 09:03:12 PM
Last night I finally watched the Ferenc Fricsay documentary. In it, somebody mentioned that one of his unfulfilled plans was to record a Mahler cycle -- which would have been a novel and possibly crazy idea at the time. He had a substantial discography but the only Mahler is the Rückert Lieder (which I haven't heard yet). I wish he had gotten to at least one of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 11, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: Pat B on September 11, 2016, 08:17:32 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. ;)

I'm an A-S man. I can't remember who thinks that right or wrong.


I'm very firmly an S-A man. 'A-S' is considered correct by "as last willed/performed by Mahler", whereas S-A is considered a better fit musically and dramatically.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on September 12, 2016, 03:17:34 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 11, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
I'm very firmly an S-A man. 'A-S' is considered correct by "as last willed/performed by Mahler", whereas S-A is considered a better fit musically and dramatically.

From what I've read, 'A-S' is simply "as performed by Mahler".

Never heard the piece myself...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on September 12, 2016, 03:19:16 AM
what do A-S and S-A mean?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on September 12, 2016, 03:32:56 AM
Andante-Scherzo & Scherzo-Andante aka the M6 middle movements controversy.

I endorse the A-S crowd.


Edit: Andante.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 03:34:15 AM
Quote from: jessop on September 12, 2016, 03:19:16 AM
what do A-S and S-A mean?

It refers to the order of the inner two movements: Andante-Scherzo or Scherzo-Andante. There has always been uncertainty about Mahler's intent and the Gustav Mahler Society has waffled on the issue, too.
There's more about that here: Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.6 (Part 1) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html), if you are interested.

Quote...The latest decision of the International Gustav Mahler Society reverses its course and now places the slow movement before the Scherzo with an air of unassailable certainty. What can be said with certainty is that Mahler did not mind the order A-S at all and, pace Henri-Louis de La Grange, seems to have had no second thoughts about it after the final decision in favor of A-S at the premiere in Essen.

I have yet to meet anyone who can argue A-S on musical grounds... or rather: I've not talked about it with them. (Fischer Adam and David Zinman are two conductors who seem to find that it works better for them, that way. Might have to do something with how they see the work as such. I'm all for the 1-2 Punch, then the Adagio, then the devastating Finale. With the Scherzo before the finale, it seems to lose so much of its ferociousness.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on September 12, 2016, 03:37:08 AM
in 1904 Mahler published the original version of the 6th symphony with the movements in the order
I. Allegro energico, ma non troppo
II. Scherzo. Wuchtig
III. Andante moderato
IV. Sostenuto - Allegro energico

after the first performance, he made some revisions and requested the publication of a new version in which, among other things, the order of the two middle movements was reversed:
I. Allegro energico, ma non troppo
II. Andante moderato
III. Scherzo. Wuchtig
IV. Sostenuto - Allegro energico
the other notable change being the removal of one of the three hammer-strokes in the original version of the finale. This version was published in 1910 I think.

Alma Mahler reported that he changed his mind again shortly before his death and on that basis advised conductors to use the 1904 order of movements. That said, the 1910 order was more common up until Erwin Ratz's 1965 publication of the score in 1904 movement order (and with some more extensive changes to the orchestration) which then most conductors adopted until basically the 21st century, during and shortly before which many scholars began to consider the 1910 version to be definitive.

Since the 1960s was also the start of the Mahler renaissance, the majority of recordings and performances have used the 1904 order and that's the one most people are used to. The 1910 order is gaining traction mostly based on scholarly opinion but hasn't totally displaced 1904 in the hearts and minds of audiences (though of course some listeners and conductors supported it the whole time).

I personally think both versions are fine.

edit: hmm I type slow

edit 2: I can argue 1910 on musical grounds: having 2 large movements in same key sharing similar thematic material was probably something Mahler wished to avoid; slow movement gains more of a sense of distance and being forever lost when placed before the scherzo; first movement material returning in the scherzo prepares the synthesis of the finale. On the other hand, the key relationship between scherzo and introduction of finale makes not much sense (a retransition back to A minor after an entire movement in that key?).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on September 12, 2016, 03:40:18 AM
Ah yes thanks for that! I was unaware of the acronym. For many years I had been more convinced by S-A until I heard A-S performed live this year, and this is how I have come to prefer it now. Minus the third hammer! I think that after the opening movement, the calmer andante seems to simply follow better than the immediate reiteration of the tonic that the scherzo begins with.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on September 12, 2016, 03:53:14 AM
Is it after the first performance? From what I had read, I was under the impression that Mahler switched the order before the first performance.

Wikipedia, for one, suggests it was during rehearsals, but I thought I'd read the same elsewhere.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 04:19:12 AM
Quote from: amw on September 12, 2016, 03:37:08 AM


edit 2: I can argue 1910 on musical grounds: having 2 large movements in same key sharing similar thematic material was probably something Mahler wished to avoid; slow movement gains more of a sense of distance and being forever lost when placed before the scherzo; first movement material returning in the scherzo prepares the synthesis of the finale. On the other hand, the key relationship between scherzo and introduction of finale makes not much sense (a retransition back to A minor after an entire movement in that key?).

Thanks for the detailed explanation of the two different versions. Alma's claim about Mahler having changed his mind has never been verified, as far as I (which is to say HLdlG, my source of most Mahler-knowledge) know.
I get your argument, but that's the reason suggested why Mahler might have been induced to change his mind for the Essen performance. I find it superficial and in fact I not only think that the Scherzo following the similar first movement is not nearly as upsetting to the structure than having the Scherzo sap the Finale's energy by offering two same-ish last movements... I actually think that it works particularly fine here, delivering, as I always call it, that one-two punch in the kisser right up front, lulling you into a sense of innocence with the Andante... and then just chopping your unsuspecting head off. Also, Scherzo in the second position is typical Mahler. Not that that's necessarily a good argument...

What we know for sure is that Mahler was never 100% certain that it MUST be one way or the other... was flexible to change the order on a dime, even though we DO know he composed it in the S-A order (which one can, as you point out, read from the harmonic progression), so it comes down what dramatic or pragmatic view one has of the work or the performance and how it will be received. A good performance will always overcome this controversy on its own merits, though.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on September 12, 2016, 04:38:33 AM
Orfeo yeah, maybe. No expert. I know it had something to do with the first performance though.


Scherzo-Finale is not quite so samey as Allegro-Scherzo because (a) the Finale is basically half slow—exposition, development and recap all begin with extensive slow sections (and coda is also slow)—and therefore at least initially one has a feeling of fast-slow rather than 2 fast movements; (b) the movements don't share as much thematic material.

Mahler was also probably thinking about the 7th symphony at the time which places the scherzo centrally with slow music on either side (although of very different character), and that may have been the kind of form he was interested in during that premiere performance. I believe he may have been interested in having a second slow movement in the 6th at some point during sketching/writing the work. (Whether it would be 2nd or 4th movement, no idea.) He did end up publishing the Andante-Scherzo order so he must have thought it worked, but, who knows. They're both valid, either way.

The 5th may have also affected him since it starts with 3 fast movements in a row and maybe he found this to be exhausting in performance. Which tbf, it kinda is a little. And then didn't want to repeat this mistake in the 6th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2016, 05:02:27 AM
Quote from: amw on September 12, 2016, 04:38:33 AM
The 5th may have also affected him since it starts with 3 fast movements in a row and maybe he found this to be exhausting in performance. Which tbf, it kinda is a little. And then didn't want to repeat this mistake in the 6th.

Except the Fifth doesn't have 3 fast movements in a row: the first movement is a funeral march, marked In gemessenem Schritt. Streng. Wie ein Kondukt (At a measured pace. Strict. Like a funeral procession.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 06:31:04 AM
Quote from: amw on September 12, 2016, 04:38:33 AM
He did end up publishing the Andante-Scherzo order so he must have thought it worked, but, who knows. They're both valid, either way.

As HenriLdlGrange suggests, Mahler wasn't above caving to advice from outsiders to give his works a better short at being well received. He was a neurotic mess and quite insecure and Angsty about his works not doing well, which becomes clear from his correspondence with Richard Strauss. But that still leaves us at: "Either Way", true.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 08:35:39 AM

I wonder why Fanfare never published that letter about Lynn René Bayley's review. (Or maybe I never sent it, seeing that I might have been writing for them, at the time.)


Blast from the Past: An Open Letter on Matters Gustav Mahler

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/09/an-open-but-unsent-letter-to-fanfare.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/09/an-open-but-unsent-letter-to-fanfare.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 11:16:42 AM
latest on Forbes:

106 Years Mahler Eighth: The Best Recordings
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/09/Mahler_conducting_Gustav_Mahler_laurson_Sy3_schli-1200x505.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#2da82ef9be0c (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#2da82ef9be0c)


(link fixed)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on September 12, 2016, 11:45:48 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 11:16:42 AM
latest on Forbes:

106 Years Mahler Eighth: The Best Recordings
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/09/Mahler_conducting_Gustav_Mahler_laurson_Sy3_schli-1200x505.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#2da82ef9be0c (http://hhttp://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#2da82ef9be0c)
Very interesting, Jens (even for someone, like me, who really doesn't like the Eighth that much  ;) ). Thanks for this. And, yes, Sinopoli rocks in this symphony  :)

Your link didn't work in my case. This one did: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#9eaeda9be0c8
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on September 12, 2016, 12:35:32 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 11, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
S-A is considered a better fit musically and dramatically.

Not by me. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on September 12, 2016, 01:06:21 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 04:19:12 AM
What we know for sure is that Mahler was never 100% certain that it MUST be one way or the other... was flexible to change the order on a dime, even though we DO know he composed it in the S-A order (which one can, as you point out, read from the harmonic progression), so it comes down what dramatic or pragmatic view one has of the work or the performance and how it will be received. A good performance will always overcome this controversy on its own merits, though.

We also DO know he performed it in the A-S order.

FWIW I didn't have a strong opinion on this until I heard Karajan's (otherwise excellent) version. So it's possible that my beef is with Karajan more than A-S.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on September 12, 2016, 01:17:13 PM
I enjoyed the survey of Mahler's Eighth, especialy as I agree on all the ones I know. I have a great fondness for the Wyn Morris version which has wonderful suspended moments where time seems irrelevant. It is a live recording with some slight mishaps, but I put it high on my list.

I have a different Boulez Mahler 8th than the one specified. I can't altogether recommend it. It is with BBC orchestral forces and the then Scottish National Orchestra Chorus. Remedios is splendid in the first movement, then disasterously falls apart in the second movement. This would rule it out for many; but the BBC sound is remarkably forward and full and the pacing is very interesting with great plasticity. I was in choir for the performance and it is much more of a pleasure to hear it than it was to perform on that specific night. It may not be easily available.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on September 12, 2016, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2016, 11:16:42 AM
latest on Forbes:

106 Years Mahler Eighth: The Best Recordings
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/09/Mahler_conducting_Gustav_Mahler_laurson_Sy3_schli-1200x505.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#2da82ef9be0c (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#2da82ef9be0c)


(link fixed)

Well, I'm interested in the opinion of anyone who tells me Rattle's version is crap, because it's the only one I know and it drives me nuts.

Also, I know some of you recommended Nagano to me, and I sampled online and it did have promise. The singers weren't ecstatically shouting at me quite so often.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on September 12, 2016, 02:54:27 PM
I heard the Rattle live and did not enjoy it. The Negano is very fine, lots of filligree textures and elbow room for expressivity.

I have a Neme Jarvi, it is quite good, but not a favourite.

There is a live Tennstedt and as with the live 2nd, it is a great deal better than the studio issues. The 8th is exciting and ecstatic, a special performance and it has very good sound.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on September 12, 2016, 04:59:06 PM
The Bernstein London Symphony performance of the Eighth Symphony was a wild ride, as I recall...1960's stereo sound: by chance I see that it is being reissued this week!

And it has the same album cover I recall from the good ol' days!  I recall the choruses being not very clear, but the overall impression was of a roller coaster of excitement.  Some have found it wrong-headed, but...

[asin]B01HLDYQ2Q[/asin]





Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 13, 2016, 01:04:57 AM
Quote from: ørfeø on September 12, 2016, 02:42:22 PM
Well, I'm interested in the opinion of anyone who tells me Rattle's version is crap, because it's the only one I know and it drives me nuts.

Also, I know some of you recommended Nagano to me, and I sampled online and it did have promise. The singers weren't ecstatically shouting at me quite so often.

Quote from: knight66 on September 12, 2016, 02:54:27 PM
I heard the Rattle live and did not enjoy it. The Negano is very fine, lots of filligree textures and elbow room for expressivity.

I have a Neme Jarvi, it is quite good, but not a favourite.

There is a live Tennstedt and as with the live 2nd, it is a great deal better than the studio issues. The 8th is exciting and ecstatic, a special performance and it has very good sound.

Mike

Thanks for the tip: I'll pop in that Tennstedt 8th from the 'live-included' box just now, after Bach.

I'm glad to hear that the hype about Rattle's Eighth has about worn off... or so it seems. Wrote about it when it came out and felt like a prophet in the desert:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/live-recordings-of-mahlers-eighth.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/07/live-recordings-of-mahlers-eighth.html) Granted, a negative prophet... no one ever really likes those. ("Don't follow that guy. He's bad news! Worship somewhere else, no matter what he promises you.") But at the same time I offered the Nagano as a positive (which was absolutely torn to shreds in Gramophone in the same issue where they featured the Rattle 8th). It had been hampered by price, back then, too... 2 SACDs made it a costly affair, only because it went a few minutes over the capacity of one disc.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 13, 2016, 01:11:11 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 12, 2016, 11:45:48 AM
Very interesting, Jens (even for someone, like me, who really doesn't like the Eighth that much  ;) ). Thanks for this.

Thanks much. And cricket lovers will appreciate the tiny Easter egg I inserted.  ;D
Oh, and an American Football (specifically Tennessee) Easter egg, too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on September 13, 2016, 03:06:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 13, 2016, 01:11:11 AM
Thanks much. And cricket lovers will appreciate the tiny Easter egg I inserted.  ;D
Oh, and an American Football (specifically Tennessee) Easter egg, too.

Bunch of malarkey, that. :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 13, 2016, 03:08:53 AM
Quote from: Draško on September 13, 2016, 03:06:49 AM
Bunch of malarkey, that. :laugh:
Very good, fellow traveler.  ;) Titanic effort, though, on my part.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Drasko on September 13, 2016, 03:18:17 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 13, 2016, 03:08:53 AM
Very good, fellow traveler.  ;) Titanic effort, though, on my part.

Less so on theirs, they got zeused by the Vikings. Or should that be odined?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: jlaurson on September 13, 2016, 03:51:47 AM
Quote from: Draško on September 13, 2016, 03:18:17 AM
Less so on theirs, they got zeused by the Vikings. Or should that be odined?

Hammered, by Thor! And Skål Vikings, at that, my team! Just listened to the Tennstedt -- but the live 8th is NOT included in the EMI box... must be a LPO-release? In any case, I was again not at all astounded by the Tennstedt, either, which was also considered one of the staple recordings for so many years.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on September 13, 2016, 08:28:11 AM
Sorry, I should have made it clear that it was not an EMI Tennstedt version: I used to have that studio recording and actually got rid of it. I found it conjested in several ways and the sound only opens out to be spectacular in the last moments of the piece. I also did not particularily take to the soloists.

Although the live version was recorded by the BBC the engineering is better. It was issued on the London Philharmonic label. I also recommend the Mahler 2nd from the same source.

Additionally I have the Ozawa which is good without blowing me out of the water: and I am not sure that a good performance of this piece is any damned good at all. Ditto the Runnicles from the BBC magazine, which is available on Amazon. I keep that more from sentimental reasons.

Again via the BBC the well regarded Horenstein, though I am really unclear what causes it to be well regarded. The playing is far from what we now expect, the soloists are OK, his pacing does not either excite me or elevate me in the relevent places. I have retained it for its rep and try it now and again. I may well give it one final chance and perhaps ditch it.

Finally, I have the Solti and although I retain a fondness for it, the older I get the less I agree with the approach to the whole of Part II.

In sum, for me.....

Tennstedt
Morris
Nagano
Sinopoli
Wit

As an adjunct I have sung it with Jarvi, Gibson, Boulez, Maazel and Nesthingia. Surprisingly, on the night the Jarvi seemed the most successful, though he really did nothing with the opening orchestral passage of Part II.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on September 13, 2016, 09:06:14 AM
My pick for the Eighth would be live Tennstedt as well, although the one I'm familiar with is the DVD released by EMI from the same concert series as the BBC CD but on a different date.  The sound quality is significantly better than the studio CD version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: hpowders on September 15, 2016, 05:58:42 AM
I love the Boulez Mahler 8th. For me it is one of his very greatest performances.

Haven't heard the Tennstedt.

As for the latter, he has for me the greatest performance of Mahler 5, in a priceless once in a lifetime live performance with the NY Philharmonic, which I am lucky enough to possess.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on September 21, 2016, 06:48:32 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on September 21, 2016, 06:13:45 PM
I'm listening to Rückert-Lieder, and what I have really come to deeply love with Mahler's music is that it is both really poignant and melancholic at the same time as very moving, very exciting. Rückert-Lieder, Symphony no 9 and Symphony no 5 can really bring a tear to the eye.  :'( Yet, Symphonies 6,7,8, Wunderhorn are really exciting and grandiose.  8)

All I can really say is, I LOVE MAHLER.  :)

Great! I really like Mahler's music a lot and while I'm far from a 'Mahlerian,' there are many works of his that I enjoy immensely. Kindertotenlieder, Symphonies 4, 5, 7, & 9, and Das Lied van der Erde.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 30, 2016, 06:51:26 PM
Crosspost from the WAYLT thread

.Finished a run through of this tonight
[asin]B019MX8HS2[/asin]
Judgment after first listen.
This joins Inbal as a set to suggest to people who only want one set.  Although no performance is "best in its class" there are no duds.  Everything is at least well done.  Only "lack" is that the Tenth is not presented in a completed version, but Adagio only.
Other pluses are good sonics and every CD is given its own CD or pair of CDs.  The Second, Third, and Sixth take up a pair of CDs each, although Two and Six are actually only a little over the 80 minute mark.  Stenz in fact can give a fast pacing: the Third takes 94 minutes.  Only Gergiev matches that among the recordings I have.  Similar albeit not so distinctive pacings in the rest.  But he makes it work.

Next up on the Mahler watch will be Nott, although not immediately.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 03, 2016, 02:30:25 PM
I personally very much enjoye the rather more speedy renditions of the 3rd. Particularly with the first movement during that exciting build up around two thirds of the way through. I like Solti's tempo and all others I've heard were slower.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 03, 2016, 05:07:50 PM
Quote from: jessop on October 03, 2016, 02:30:25 PM
I personally very much enjoye the rather more speedy renditions of the 3rd. Particularly with the first movement during that exciting build up around two thirds of the way through. I like Solti's tempo and all others I've heard were slower.

In that case, avoid Tilson Thomas and make sure to hear Gergiev.

But most of my recordings of the Third hover around 99-100 minutes.  I don't think I have Solti.
Some Thirds are boring.  But the only Third I never want to hear again is Rattle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 03, 2016, 05:22:46 PM
The Third is a mighty, delicate beast. It is not only multi-faceted (what catches the eye/ear) but multi-layered and, as such, welcomes undercurrents that may not be detectable at first hearing, but that leave you with puzzled feelings.

Some versions successfully capitalize on the first movement and tend to meander and get lost thereafter (as I said, it's a beast).

I have heard dozens of versions and know which ones I like (or don't) but still don't know if there is a "recipe".

One of my current favourites is the recent (2007) Chicago Symphony Orchestra recording under Bernard Haitink. The best of both (or many) worlds.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 03, 2016, 05:27:30 PM
I'm highly satisfied with Bernstein's 3rd on Deutsche Grammophon. Bernstein is, after all, my favorite Mahlerian.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 03, 2016, 05:33:59 PM
It's a very solid version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 03, 2016, 05:34:42 PM
I probably don't have a favorite Third.  And it can stand different interpretations.  I mentioned Gergiev for speed and MTT for slow.
But the fact is, I like both.

The archetype for boring Third in my mind is the recording in which I first heard the work, a rather unfortunate introduction.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VqDhF64bL.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vandermolen on October 04, 2016, 12:55:12 AM
Quote from: André on October 03, 2016, 05:22:46 PM
The Third is a mighty, delicate beast. It is not only multi-faceted (what catches the eye/ear) but multi-layered and, as such, welcomes undercurrents that may not be detectable at first hearing, but that leave you with puzzled feelings.

Some versions successfully capitalize on the first movement and tend to meander and get lost thereafter (as I said, it's a beast).

I have heard dozens of versions and know which ones I like (or don't) but still don't know if there is a "recipe".

One of my current favourites is the recent (2007) Chicago Symphony Orchestra recording under Bernard Haitink. The best of both (or many) worlds.
A friend of mine with whom I saw the Third live in London some months ago (a great experience for me as I hardly knew the work) kindly sent me the famous Horenstein version on Unicorn which I'm looking forward to hearing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 04, 2016, 02:51:30 AM
Quote from: André on October 03, 2016, 05:22:46 PM
The Third is a mighty, delicate beast. It is not only multi-faceted (what catches the eye/ear) but multi-layered and, as such, welcomes undercurrents that may not be detectable at first hearing, but that leave you with puzzled feelings.

Agreed entirely.


Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.3 (Part 1)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZhxJkXHCu9A/UfjwlGc41TI/AAAAAAAAGyc/G-HelfVWATg/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_3_1.png) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-1.html)
QuoteThe Third Symphony, Mahler's longest, has sublime moments and plenty of them, but it can be difficult to find your way to—and around—it: Its quilt of music is complicated and never just straight forward and clear-cut...

...What did the job of giving me access to this symphony, eventually, was the combined glory of the Vienna Philharmonic, Anne Sofie von Otter (!), and Pierre Boulez: A recording of stunning clarity, von Otter's silvery voice ethereally high (almost soprano-like), superb playing and attention paid to every detail. Boulez is lifting the rug for you in this symphony and lets you have a peek at what it is all about...

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 04, 2016, 04:45:55 AM
I remember feeling when I first heard it that Boulez's Third had the best trombone solo in the first movement compared to the other versions I knew (including Solti and the aforementioned Haitink 2007).  The solo is one of the best parts of that massive movement if handled correctly, but the pacing needs to give it the proper weight for it to work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on October 04, 2016, 06:41:40 AM
My favourite 3rd is Charles Adler conducting the Wiener Symphoniker. It's from the early '50s, so doesn't have the best sound, but it has been remastered decently in recent years and isn't such a major hurdle to deal with.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on October 05, 2016, 05:23:07 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 04, 2016, 04:45:55 AM
I remember feeling when I first heard it that Boulez's Third had the best trombone solo in the first movement compared to the other versions I knew

My favorite trombone solo for M3 is Jay Friedman/Levine/CSO....
Joe Alessi/Bernstein/NYPO II is very good also. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Ok, I'm looking for some recs, sooooo....Best Das Lied von der Erde on record....GO!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:17:21 PM
Quote from: Heck148 on October 05, 2016, 05:23:07 AM
My favorite trombone solo for M3 is Jay Friedman/Levine/CSO....
Joe Alessi/Bernstein/NYPO II is very good also.

When the Alessi recording came out, i was floored by it. What power it possessed. But the more I explored other performances I realized that Alessi's was lacking the lyricism that other's offer. The solos from the Boulez/Vienna and Chailly/RCO (their names slip my mind) I feel convey the proper tone for this solo, they carry the weight but also at times seem as if the trombone is truly singing. The Jay Friedman solo is also quite powerful. But all great trombonist no doubt, and all deserve to be heard.

But on the subject of the 3rd, nothing matches the mystical and other-worldly beauty of Bernstein/NYP on DG recording. It's massive.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2016, 07:20:51 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Ok, I'm looking for some recs, sooooo....Best Das Lied von der Erde on record....GO!

There many of them but my vote goes to Karajan/Berliners (w/ Ludwig and Kollo) on DG. This recording is absolutely sumptuous. Bernstein's account (also w/ Ludwig and Kollo) with the Israel Philharmonic is also worth your time. Almost the polar opposite of HvK.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:21:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 11, 2016, 07:20:51 PM
There many of them but my vote goes to Karajan/Berliners (w/ Ludwig and Kollo) on DG. This recording is absolutely sumptuous. Bernstein's account (also w/ Ludwig and Kollo) with the Israel Philharmonic is also worth your time. Almost the polar opposite of HvK.

I do like Ludwig, so thanks for these, John.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 11, 2016, 07:27:45 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:21:46 PM
I do like Ludwig, so thanks for these, John.

You're welcome, Greg. I need to listen to Das Lied von der Erde as it's been too long.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2016, 04:53:26 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Ok, I'm looking for some recs, sooooo....Best Das Lied von der Erde on record....GO!

Only 1 recommendation so far? Im disappointed in GMG  :'(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 12, 2016, 05:01:13 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2016, 04:53:26 PM
Only 1 recommendation so far? Im disappointed in GMG  :'(

How about Haitink/King/Baker or Tennstedt/Koenig/Baltsa?  I enjoy both of those.  Schoenberg's transcription is surprisingly valuable too, but I don't own a recording of that myself.

I found Reiner's disappointing despite some good singing, as the conductor's take on Mahler sounds false to me.  Boulez's has the opposite problem.  The conducting and playing are great, the singing is less stellar.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 12, 2016, 05:30:12 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2016, 04:53:26 PM
Only 1 recommendation so far? Im disappointed in GMG  :'(
I am sure you will get a lot of good recommendations. Of more recent vintage i think this one is fantastic:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41542AKoNbL._SX425_.jpg)

You will find some fabulous orchestral playing and Michelle DeYoung in top voice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 12, 2016, 06:06:27 PM
Krips/Wunderlich/Fischer Dieskau/Vienna Symphony
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on October 12, 2016, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2016, 04:53:26 PM
Only 1 recommendation so far? Im disappointed in GMG  :'(

There is an entire thread on the subject. Here is a link to a modern recording that I reviewed.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,699.msg863705.html#msg863705



The recordings I listen to most are:
Klemperer with Wunderlich and Ludwig
Kubelik live with Janet Baker
Levine with Norman and Jerusalem
And the above one that I have linked to.

MIke
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on October 13, 2016, 01:55:06 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2016, 04:53:26 PM
Only 1 recommendation so far? Im disappointed in GMG  :'(

Well you asked for the best on record. I own and know one. I don't feel qualified to offer a recommendation.

Meanwhile on the Faure thread I'm suffering a similar fate when it comes to asking people about the Requiem.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 13, 2016, 01:38:06 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2016, 04:53:26 PM
Only 1 recommendation so far? Im disappointed in GMG  :'(

Why, here's a whole bunch:
Gustav Mahler – Das Lied von der Erde (Part 1)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VxKeplJcTSY/Tg2j_R6_3EI/AAAAAAAABkE/i_zRfJC0_dQ/s400/Gustav_Mahler_DLvdE_2.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde_01.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde_01.html)

Bernstein (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001IVQU/goodmusicguide-20), Haitink (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z337/goodmusicguide-20), Nagano (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001XTLB14/goodmusicguide-20) et al.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 13, 2016, 11:46:00 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 13, 2016, 01:38:06 PM
Why, here's a whole bunch:
Gustav Mahler – Das Lied von der Erde (Part 1)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VxKeplJcTSY/Tg2j_R6_3EI/AAAAAAAABkE/i_zRfJC0_dQ/s400/Gustav_Mahler_DLvdE_2.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde_01.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde_01.html)

Bernstein (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001IVQU/goodmusicguide-20), Haitink (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z337/goodmusicguide-20), Nagano (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001XTLB14/goodmusicguide-20) et al.
Great to see the (relatively obscure) Kletzki recording receive high praise, Jens! My favourites are:

[asin]B000B668U4[/asin]
[asin]B010OVTONS[/asin]

Cheers,
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 14, 2016, 01:46:39 AM
Quote from: ritter on October 13, 2016, 11:46:00 PM
Great to see the (relatively obscure) Kletzki recording receive high praise, Jens! My favourites are:


Cheers,

It's wonderful, indeed, and I was very happy to have Kletzki pointed out to me; turns out that he is a wonderful conductor altogether.

On LvdE: Nagano-Gerhaher-Vogt would be higher, still, if the latter hadn't been spliced in in the studio, I think. Drats.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on October 16, 2016, 05:06:05 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Ok, I'm looking for some recs, sooooo....Best Das Lied von der Erde on record....GO!

Walter/NYPO/Miller, Haefliger
Reiner/CSO/ Forrester, Lewis

wouldn't want to be without either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on October 16, 2016, 05:09:12 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:17:21 PM
But on the subject of the 3rd, nothing matches the mystical and other-worldly beauty of Bernstein/NYP on DG recording. It's massive.

Yes, Bernstein/NYPO II is very fine, one of my favorites. Top billing goes to Levine/CSO, tho, for me....and for the finale Adadio - Martinon/Chicago - live from 1967 [CSO in 20th Century archival set] is unmatched, really magical...must have been amazing in live concert hall.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 16, 2016, 08:49:30 AM
I am enjoying this new recording of No. 2 by Gergiev and the Muenchner Philharmonic

(http://opdwarner.com/sites/wmgtmseu01.prod.acquia-sites.com/files/styles/med/public/MPHL0001_Mahler2.jpg?itok=q-JxiIVi)

http://www.warnerclassics.com/shop/3251597,0793052112042/muenchner-philharmoniker-mahler-symphony-no-2-resurrection

It is an energetic performance and faster tempos compared to contemporary recordings which seemed to have seriously slowed down post Lenny II.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Reckoner on October 16, 2016, 09:07:33 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 16, 2016, 08:49:30 AM
I am enjoying this new recording of No. 2 by Gergiev and the Muenchner Philharmonic

...

It is an energetic performance and faster tempos compared to contemporary recordings which seemed to have seriously slowed down post Lenny II.

His recording of the 2nd with the LSO is even quicker by about three minutes in total.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 16, 2016, 09:18:55 AM
Quote from: Reckoner on October 16, 2016, 09:07:33 AM
His recording of the 2nd with the LSO is even quicker by about three minutes in total.  :)

Yes, but it wasn't a good interpretation.  I am enjoying this interpretation.  It won't knock the best out of the running but it is enjoyable and high quality.  BUT...I haven't heard the finale yet.  Will report back in 35 minutes.

EDIT: Ok, now done.

One of my favorite things to do on a Sunday morning...sipping coffee while listening to a great work like Mahler 2 and following along in the full score.

I love the distant horn sound in the fifth movement. 

I love the trombone choral and its slow build up but really wished the horns at rehearsal 11 (Weider Breit) really came through stronger here.  I love how Inbal treats this section.  Just check out Inbal's phenomenal horns at rehearsal 11 here:

https://youtu.be/Aw0W3Mb-Gjo?t=3517
(https://youtu.be/Aw0W3Mb-Gjo?t=3517)
And especially take note of the Frankfurt horns at 59:34.  Have they ever been bettered?

Ok, back to Gergiev/Muenchner.  The bells sound small, like orchestral chimes rather than cathedral bells.   Again, the horns at fff are under powered in rehearsal 16. 

The chorus and soloists are very fine and I love the solemnity at the choral entrance.  I would say the emphasis of this performance is on beauty.  The final 15 minutes when the chorus enters is very, very beautiful and well phrased.  There is a delicate touch to the phrasing.  If you prefer power and thunder, you might find this slightly underwhelming.  Organ entrance is nicely balanced but not thundering.

This is a live recording and the occasional stage noises and audience sounds can be heard but are never distracting.  This recording has great clarity and I sense it isn't a humongous orchestra (by Mahler 2 standards).  For example, the pizzicato strings are very clear and don't have a large body sound but rather a tight sound.

My overall conclusion is this is a solid new recording, tempos are very well judged and the recording quality is of consistently high standards.  It is a somewhat measured reading and is not earth shattering which is fine if you think of this as very good music.  If you think this is something bigger than just very good music, then you might prefer more grandiosity from interpreters like Bernstein (both with LSO and NYPhil) who conducted this as if his life depended on the performance or Ivan Fischer which this recording does not displace.  I find Inbal to be a good balance between other worldly apocalypse and this being one of the great musical achievements of late romanticism and he also really pushes his fantastic horn section of the Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra in those important climaxes. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on October 18, 2016, 02:32:09 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Ok, I'm looking for some recs, sooooo....Best Das Lied von der Erde on record....GO!

Klemperer '67 with Fritz Wunderlich and Christa Ludwig is my personal favourite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 18, 2016, 02:35:54 AM
I have never forgiven Klemperer for the time he butchered Symphony number 7..................................
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on October 18, 2016, 02:41:59 AM
Quote from: jessop on October 18, 2016, 02:35:54 AM
I have never forgiven Klemperer for the time he butchered Symphony number 7..................................

That was a rough one, but not legitimate reason to discount his Second or Das Lied, both of which are excellent.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 18, 2016, 03:13:09 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on October 18, 2016, 02:41:59 AM
That was a rough one, but not legitimate reason to discount his Second or Das Lied, both of which are excellent.
Ah yes, the 2nd is good but the one which most people cite as his 'great' recording of the 2nd has been edited slightly for CD release so it can fit in under 80 minutes I think........
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on October 18, 2016, 03:16:20 AM
Quote from: jessop on October 18, 2016, 03:13:09 AM
Ah yes, the 2nd is good but the one which most people cite as his 'great' recording of the 2nd has been edited slightly for CD release so it can fit in under 80 minutes I think........

Next time I listen I'll probably spend the whole time listening for edits. Thanks...

Oh well, it isn't my favourite second, so not to worry.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 18, 2016, 03:34:15 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on October 18, 2016, 03:16:20 AM
Next time I listen I'll probably spend the whole time listening for edits. Thanks...

Oh well, it isn't my favourite second, so not to worry.
From what I am aware, the recording was ever so slightly digitally sped up for the first CD release. I don't think it is noticeable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2016, 08:34:18 PM
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of Rückert-Lieder? This has become a bit of a pet work of mine lately or so it seems. I was absolutely enchanted with Hampson/Bernstein the other night, but have since listened to Ludwig/HvK, Baker/Barbirolli, and Fischer-Dieskau/Bohm. My preference is for a baritone and the rich timbre of Hampson really hits me in the right spots. Bernstein's accompaniment is also assertive, but soulful and, ultimately, heart-wrenching, especially by the time we get to Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen, which needs no introduction or elaboration.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 19, 2016, 03:36:02 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2016, 08:34:18 PM
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of Rückert-Lieder? This has become a bit of a pet work of mine lately or so it seems. I was absolutely enchanted with Hampson/Bernstein the other night, but have since listened to Ludwig/HvK, Baker/Barbirolli, and Fischer-Dieskau/Bohm. My preference is for a baritone and the rich timbre of Hampson really hits me in the right spots. Bernstein's accompaniment is also assertive, but soulful and, ultimately, heart-wrenching, especially by the time we get to Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen, which needs no introduction or elaboration.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71-N82NKa4L._SL1500_.jpg)
Rückert-Lieder, Kindertotenlieder, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (http://amzn.to/2e7eW0e)

The best singer to tackle these.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: amw on October 19, 2016, 03:39:01 AM
Yes, get that one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 19, 2016, 06:09:40 AM
Maureen Forrester with Ferenc Fricsay (DGG)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 19, 2016, 08:37:13 AM
A late Thank You to those that posted their pics for Das lied per my request. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 19, 2016, 12:21:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2016, 08:34:18 PM
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of Rückert-Lieder? This has become a bit of a pet work of mine lately or so it seems. I was absolutely enchanted with Hampson/Bernstein the other night, but have since listened to Ludwig/HvK, Baker/Barbirolli, and Fischer-Dieskau/Bohm. My preference is for a baritone and the rich timbre of Hampson really hits me in the right spots. Bernstein's accompaniment is also assertive, but soulful and, ultimately, heart-wrenching, especially by the time we get to Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen, which needs no introduction or elaboration.
IMO, you got the best one right at the start.  H/B is for me best not only in Ruckert Lieder but also Kindertotenlieder.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 19, 2016, 07:35:30 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 19, 2016, 12:21:35 PM
IMO, you got the best one right at the start.  H/B is for me best not only in Ruckert Lieder but also Kindertotenlieder.

Thanks for your input here, Jeffrey. Also a thank you to all who have responded to my question. I actually bought the Gerhaher/Nagano tonight after much back-and-forth. I'd like to pick-up a performance of a Ludwig performance of Ruckert-Lieder (I know she has several) and it's too bad that Magdalena Kožená's performance with Abbado isn't available on record, but I do have this particular performance on blu-ray. I was quite taken with the performance overall even though I've already specified that I preferred a baritone in Mahler's orchestral songs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 20, 2016, 01:03:07 PM
As for me, the warm, golden, glowing sound of a dark mezzo or contralto brings the best out of Mahler's alternately low and high tessiture in his songs. When it's a baritone I have the feeling the vocal/emotional range is narrower. I miss the contralto overtones and harmonics.

Mind you, I'm venturing far afield in a domain I know little about (singing techniques). What I say is what I understand from what I have heard and read over the years. Experts feel free to correct me !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2016, 06:14:18 AM
Quote from: André on October 20, 2016, 01:03:07 PM
As for me, the warm, golden, glowing sound of a dark mezzo or contralto brings the best out of Mahler's alternately low and high tessiture in his songs. When it's a baritone I have the feeling the vocal/emotional range is narrower. I miss the contralto overtones and harmonics.

Mind you, I'm venturing far afield in a domain I know little about (singing techniques). What I say is what I understand from what I have heard and read over the years. Experts feel free to correct me !

From what I've read, Mahler preferred a baritone in these songs, but it's nice to have different kinds of vocalists in these works IMHO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 07:19:16 PM
I can't get enough of Mahler's 3rd. I've listened to it twice in the last 24 hours (Bernstein/New York Phil. on DG and Abbado/Wiener on DG --- both outstanding performances). The movement where the soprano enters for the first time (Sehr langsam—Misterioso) is absolutely beautiful. I've heard this symphony many times and only until more recently has this music opened up for me. Like I said, I may end up being the biggest Mahlerian on GMG. ;) ;D Just kidding as I can't best the others who have lived and breathed this music for as long as I've been alive. I'm still a novice compared to these guys. Anyway, also, the last movement, Langsam—Ruhevoll—Empfunden is just magnificent --- there are no other words.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 23, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 07:19:16 PM
only until more recently has this music opened up for me.
Only took over thirty-five thousand posts :P ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 07:58:40 PM
Quote from: jessop on October 23, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
Only took over thirty-five thousand posts :P ;D

Hah! :P Some composers click right away for some people. Mahler took me a little more time and experience. The great thing is I have nothing extramusical to add to the music to enhance or intrigue me --- the music, as it should always be, was enough this time around. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 08:02:46 PM
By the way, I picked up this baby on 180g vinyl today from my local Barnes & Noble:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qBzgTmsXL.jpg)

I've never seen a vinyl recording of Mahler before until today (there aren't any record stores around where I live and never have been). Perhaps, in time, I'll get the others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Vaulted on October 23, 2016, 08:07:03 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoellerOk, I'm looking for some recs, sooooo....Best Das Lied von der Erde on record....GO!
Tennstedt. Great dark glistening Mahler sound, and the most amazing Abschied.
[asin]B00000DNRN[/asin]
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2016, 08:34:18 PMWhat are everyone's favorite recording(s) of Rückert-Lieder? This has become a bit of a pet work of mine lately or so it seems. I was absolutely enchanted with Hampson/Bernstein the other night, but have since listened to Ludwig/HvK, Baker/Barbirolli, and Fischer-Dieskau/Bohm. My preference is for a baritone and the rich timbre of Hampson really hits me in the right spots.
Hampson is great. This set sung by Siegfried Lorenz (Berlin classics) is little known but also very good.
[asin]B00000JIRT[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 08:39:32 PM
Quote from: Vaulted on October 23, 2016, 08:07:03 PMHampson is great. This set sung by Siegfried Lorenz (Berlin classics) is little known but also very good.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000JIRT.01.L.jpg)

Thanks! I'll definitely keep it under my radar. I have a recording of Lorenz singing Schoenberg's Die Jakobsleiter. Quite a good voice he possesses.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: GioCar on October 23, 2016, 09:05:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 07:19:16 PM
I can't get enough of Mahler's 3rd. I've listened to it twice in the last 24 hours (Bernstein/New York Phil. on DG and Abbado/Wiener on DG --- both outstanding performances). The movement where the soprano enters for the first time (Sehr langsam—Misterioso) is absolutely beautiful. I've heard this symphony many times and only until more recently has this music opened up for me. Like I said, I may end up being the biggest Mahlerian on GMG. ;) ;D Just kidding as I can't best the others who have lived and breathed this music for as long as I've been alive. I'm still a novice compared to these guys. Anyway, also, the last movement, Langsam—Ruhevoll—Empfunden is just magnificent --- there are no other words.

I've got a couple of favorites: Horenstein/London SO and, more recently, Chailly/Concertgebouw. Have you heard them? If not, please do it, you'll thank me   :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Vaulted on October 24, 2016, 12:53:52 AM
Quote from: GioCar on October 23, 2016, 09:05:58 PMI've got a couple of favorites: Horenstein/London SO and, more recently, Chailly/Concertgebouw. Have you heard them? If not, please do it, you'll thank me   :)
Dare I mention Tennstedt again?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 24, 2016, 06:07:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 07:58:40 PM
Hah! :P Some composers click right away for some people. Mahler took me a little more time and experience. The great thing is I have nothing extramusical to add to the music to enhance or intrigue me --- the music, as it should always be, was enough this time around. :)

And Mahler would be glad to hear that you don't need any extramusical crutches.  His music was meant to stand on its own, and anything biographical or programmatical is secondary.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: The new erato on October 24, 2016, 06:53:38 AM
(http://hornmatters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/peanutsMahler.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 07:00:26 AM
Quote from: The new erato on October 24, 2016, 06:53:38 AM
(http://hornmatters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/peanutsMahler.jpg)

Haha! Totally stole this cartoon strip of Peanuts for my signature. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 07:02:58 AM
Quote from: GioCar on October 23, 2016, 09:05:58 PM
I've got a couple of favorites: Horenstein/London SO and, more recently, Chailly/Concertgebouw. Have you heard them? If not, please do it, you'll thank me   :)

I probably have years ago, but I'm perfectly happy with Bernstein and Abbado from my collection at the moment.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: GioCar on October 24, 2016, 07:58:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 07:02:58 AM
I probably have years ago, but I'm perfectly happy with Bernstein and Abbado from my collection at the moment.

Huh? Ok, sorry for bothering you...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 09:56:29 AM
Quote from: GioCar on October 24, 2016, 07:58:22 AM
Huh? Ok, sorry for bothering you...

I appreciate your recommendations, GioCar. I'm just being honest. By the way, I now recall Chailly's 3rd and actually wrote a simpleton review of it on Amazon. I recall being very impressed with it at the time. 8)

Here's my review of Chailly's 3rd (written in '09):

Riccardo Chailly's Mahler cycle is one of the best recorded and performed I've heard (and I own them all). I'm reviewing this performance of Mahler's third symphony, because I think it stands as one of the great achievements of Chailly's cycle. The Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra play amazingly well here. After hearing this performance, I was fully convinced of the beauty this symphony had to offer.

Chailly is up against some very stiff competition in this symphony: Bertini, Abbado, Bernstein, Tennstedt, Salonen (one of two Mahler recordings he made, the other being "Symphony No. 4"), Haitink (his newer CSO recording is fantastic), Rattle, Horenstein, Mehta, Kubelik, and Boulez. All of these recordings offer great performances, but it is Chailly's that pulls ahead. I think there are three elements that sets this performance apart from the others: the sheer intensity, emotional content, and the pure virtuosity of the RCO.

The first movement "Kräftig - Entschieden," which lasts around 34 minutes is one of the best I've heard from any conductor or orchestra. Chailly has an unbelievable ear for the structure of this long movement. The last minute of this symphony is so intense and just downright exuberant you will think you're speakers are about to explode! The singing from Petra Lang is also first-rate.

Mahler's third isn't recorded as much as his first, second, fourth, fifth, sixth, or ninth, but I think this performance has a lot going for it. I highly recommend Chailly's entire Mahler cycle as the single releases of this cycle are quite expensive. Mahler fans who don't own Chailly's cycle, but aren't sure whether to purchase the box set yet, should try this recording first. If this performance doesn't convince you, then nothing will.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 24, 2016, 12:50:42 PM
MI what is your assessment  of Ashkanzy's Mahler 3?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 12:52:45 PM
Quote from: jessop on October 24, 2016, 12:50:42 PM
MI what is your assessment  of Ashkanzy's Mahler 3?

I haven't heard it, but Ashkenazy doesn't strike me as a Mahlerian. :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on October 24, 2016, 01:27:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 09:56:29 AM

Here's my review of Chailly's 3rd (written in '09):

Riccardo Chailly's Mahler cycle is one of the best recorded and performed I've heard (and I own them all).

You owned all Mahler cycles when you didn't even like Mahler?

Then you must try Bernstein's and Abbado's first No. 3. I like them more than the later versions. And since you own them all, easy peasy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 24, 2016, 01:38:44 PM
Ashkenazy's 6th symphony (Czech Philharmonic, Exton label) is a sterling account. And in the case of the 6th I use this qualifyer very sparingly.

Chailly's 3rd is indeed a great performance (by dint of fantastic playing/engineering). No argument. As for the rest of his cycle, it's all over the Richter scale.

But when it's all been said, few versions equal the frisson of Horenstein's LSO M3 version on Nonesuch. Haitink's M3 is also to be reckoned with, whether in his homespun, unsophisticated first try on Philips, or in his infinitely wise, classy and powerful CSO account (une main de fer dans un gant de velours, as they say).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 24, 2016, 01:41:09 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 12:52:45 PM
I haven't heard it, but Ashkenazy doesn't strike me as a Mahlerian. :-\
Seems competent to me but that's about it
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 24, 2016, 01:48:01 PM
Isn't "competent" in Mahler an acknowledgment of high technical and artistic proficiency ? Just asking...  :-\

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 24, 2016, 02:04:15 PM
Quote from: André on October 24, 2016, 01:48:01 PM
Isn't "competent" in Mahler an acknowledgment of high technical and artistic proficiency ? Just asking...  :-\


It certainly is! But it isn't outstanding especially for Ashkenazy's standards.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 02:10:59 PM
Quote from: Jay F on October 24, 2016, 01:27:35 PM
You owned all Mahler cycles when you didn't even like Mahler?

Then you must try Bernstein's and Abbado's first No. 3. I like them more than the later versions. And since you own them all, easy peasy.

My dad owns them all, which I didn't feel the need to put in the review, which was written seven years ago. As I stated in my posting past on GMG, my dad was initially the Mahlerian in the family. He collected everything he could get and, alas, a huge collection was formed. Abbado's first 3rd (w/ the Wiener Philharmoniker) is excellent indeed. I don't remember Bernstein's 3rd on Columbia off-hand, but his DG remake makes me less curious about his first go-around as I don't think anything could top this one. Not even Chailly's. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on October 24, 2016, 02:51:50 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 23, 2016, 07:19:16 PM
I can't get enough of Mahler's 3rd........ Anyway, also, the last movement, Langsam—Ruhevoll—Empfunden is just magnificent --- there are no other words.

Yup.. the final Adagio of Mahler # is one of the great ones....many do it very well - but the best I've ever heard is Martinon/CSO - live from 3/67 [Archival set "CSO in 20th Century"] - it is magical - develops so beautifully and convincingly - great dynamic contrasts.
amazing execution after the grand climax at the end - the orchestra is absolutely blowing the roof off the hall - shatteringly loud - then hushed silence - the trumpet/trombone entrance is so perfect - pianissimo, dolce - the far off "call of eternity", so to speak. quite magical....
I wish I'd been there for the live performance - the audience must have gone totally nuts....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 03:05:27 PM
Quote from: Heck148 on October 24, 2016, 02:51:50 PM
Yup.. the final Adagio of Mahler # is one of the great ones....many do it very well - but the best I've ever heard is Martinon/CSO - live from 3/67 [Archival set "CSO in 20th Century"] - it is magical - develops so beautifully and convincingly - great dynamic contrasts.
amazing execution after the grand climax at the end - the orchestra is absolutely blowing the roof off the hall - shatteringly loud - then hushed silence - the trumpet/trombone entrance is so perfect - pianissimo, dolce - the far off "call of eternity", so to speak. quite magical....
I wish I'd been there for the live performance - the audience must have gone totally nuts....

Sounds like a great performance indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 24, 2016, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: Heck148 on October 24, 2016, 02:51:50 PM
Yup.. the final Adagio of Mahler # is one of the great ones....many do it very well - but the best I've ever heard is Martinon/CSO - live from 3/67

Sadly, Jean Martinon did not have the happiest years in Chicago.

Quote...Martinon drew savage reviews from the Chicago Tribune's all-powerful Claudia Cassidy. Those critical drubs — combined with a nasty imbroglio that pitted a hapless Martinon against the musicians union and the late Ray Still (an outspoken Martinon detractor whom the conductor tried to remove as principal oboe) — finally prompted him to resign and head back to France. The modest maitre enjoyed later success as principal conductor of the French National Orchestra (1968-73) before his untimely death in 1976, at 66.

Martinon's CSO recordings came in for consistently high praise among reviewers, and in fact these razor-sharp performances of scores by Bartok, Varese, Ravel, Hindemith, Carl Nielsen, Albert Roussel and Frank Martin remain benchmarks roughly a half-century after their initial release...

...Delving through this trove of treasures, I was reminded of Martinon's prowess as a composer, with the return to circulation of his craggy, powerfully argued Symphony No. 4 ("Altitudes"), commissioned for the CSO's 75th anniversary. The score repays repeated listenings, as does its disc-mate, Peter Mennin's athletic, hard-boned Symphony No. 7 ("Variation Symphony")....

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/vonrhein/ct-classical-recordings-20150804-column.html (http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/vonrhein/ct-classical-recordings-20150804-column.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 24, 2016, 04:47:28 PM
Claudia Cassidy was the Hillary Clinton of critics. Such a nasty woman  !

Sorry, but one has to laugh at all the misogynous scorn heaped upon her (both Claudia and Hillary  >:D)

Oups ! Wait: this isn't the Diner, it's a regular musical thread... Sooooooorry... ::)

.....................................................

Back to the subject at hand:

Martinon was one of the very few conductors born outside the Prussian or Austro-Hungarian Empire of his time to have performed Mahler symphonies - ever ! His CSO broadcast recordings of the 3rd and 10th symphonies are apparently classics. Wish they were more widely available.

Meanwhile, there's that superb RCA set, which contains sublime, ancient greek statuary examples of what classical music could sound when in the right hands (conductor and players):

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91TiZTYCkmL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 24, 2016, 05:13:23 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 02:10:59 PM
My dad owns them all, which I didn't feel the need to put in the review, which was written seven years ago. As I stated in my posting past on GMG, my dad was initially the Mahlerian in the family. He collected everything he could get and, alas, a huge collection was formed. Abbado's first 3rd (w/ the Wiener Philharmoniker) is excellent indeed. I don't remember Bernstein's 3rd on Columbia off-hand, but his DG remake makes me less curious about his first go-around as I don't think anything could top this one. Not even Chailly's. :)
I would rank Lenny's SONY M3 as one of his finest recordings and a reference recording if there is one on this work. THe DG version is still excellent but really doesn't improve upon the SONY effort, which unlike some in the set is recorded in excellent analog sound. The final Adagia ebbs and flows like a single phrase, a remarkable achievement.

THe Chailly is very fine also. I just think it is a bit heavy and dark and times and misses some of the fairytale nature of this work. But it does not take away from this excellent recording much. A darkhorse recommendation is Litton/Dallas fantastically played and recorded.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on October 24, 2016, 05:47:30 PM
Quote from: André on October 24, 2016, 04:47:28 PM
Martinon was one of the very few conductors born outside the Prussian or Austro-Hungarian Empire of his time to have performed Mahler symphonies - ever ! His CSO broadcast recordings of the 3rd and 10th symphonies are apparently classics. Wish they were more widely available.

Yes, both 3 and 10 are from live concerts...both are outstanding....Martinon used the then-new Cooke version of 10, basically the same used by Ormandy/Phila....under Martinon, it sounds like a totally different piece!! wild, diabolical, almost frenzied at times...
I have both, wouldn't want to be without either.

QuoteMeanwhile, there's that superb RCA set, which contains sublime, ancient greek statuary examples of what classical music could sound when in the right hands (conductor and players)

That's a great set - I had most of those disc individually, but the complete set is mastered better - the sound is better. outstanding collection - highly recommended - some real recorded classics - Nielsen #4, Bartok "Miraculous Mandarin", Varese Arcana"; Hindemith "Noblissima Visione", Bizet Sym  in C, etc, etc....some real top-liners here...

Quote(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91TiZTYCkmL._SX522_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 24, 2016, 05:51:14 PM
Quote from: André on October 24, 2016, 04:47:28 PMMartinon was one of the very few conductors born outside the Prussian or Austro-Hungarian Empire of his time to have performed Mahler symphonies - ever !

Mitropoulos and Mengelberg come to mind as other early champions of Mahler who were not from that area.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Vaulted on October 24, 2016, 05:57:46 PM
Quote from: Heck148 on October 24, 2016, 05:47:30 PMYes, both 3 and 10 are from live concerts...both are outstanding....Martinon used the then-new Cooke version of 10, basically the same used by Ormandy/Phila....under Martinon, it sounds like a totally different piece!!
I didn't know he'd recorded 10. What year was that?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on October 24, 2016, 06:00:27 PM
Quote from: Vaulted on October 24, 2016, 05:57:46 PM
I didn't know he'd recorded 10. What year was that?
recorded from live concert - 5/66 - Archival set- "CSO- First 100 Years"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Vaulted on October 24, 2016, 06:10:06 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 24, 2016, 07:42:24 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 24, 2016, 05:51:14 PM
Mitropoulos and Mengelberg come to mind as other early champions of Mahler who were not from that area.

Mengelberg, of course... How could I have possibly not thought of him in relation to Mahler...  ::)

As for Mitropoulos, he was a bit late in the day, don't you think?

My hunch is that "very few conductors" were hailing from outside Mittel Europa in the period following Mahler's death - and of course, his "rehabilitation" after WWII.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 24, 2016, 08:22:23 PM
Quote from: André on October 24, 2016, 07:42:24 PMMengelberg, of course... How could I have possibly not thought of him in relation to Mahler...  ::)

I couldn't tell you either, because he was a good personal friend of Mahler's and possibly Mahler's greatest champion in the period after his death, establishing a Mahler tradition in the Netherlands that lasts to this day, including a Mahler festival.

Of course, there's not much record of this in the discography, but Mahler was not part of the repertoire yet at that time, so it's not too surprising that producers didn't jump to put his works on stacks of 35s.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 24, 2016, 08:28:47 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 24, 2016, 08:23:56 PM
Hey Mahlerian my friend, I've never asked oddly enough but what is your favorite Mahler symphony?  :)

Why, the Sixth of course.  Like I said in the thread dedicated to it, it's about as close as a symphony can get to absolute perfection.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 24, 2016, 08:32:46 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 24, 2016, 08:28:47 PM
Why, the Sixth of course.  Like I said in the thread dedicated to it, it's about as close as a symphony can get to absolute perfection.
The only way for it to reach perfection is if the middle movements are the other way around  $:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 08:58:42 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 24, 2016, 05:13:23 PM
I would rank Lenny's SONY M3 as one of his finest recordings and a reference recording if there is one on this work. THe DG version is still excellent but really doesn't improve upon the SONY effort, which unlike some in the set is recorded in excellent analog sound. The final Adagio ebbs and flows like a single phrase, a remarkable achievement.

THe Chailly is very fine also. I just think it is a bit heavy and dark and times and misses some of the fairytale nature of this work. But it does not take away from this excellent recording much. A darkhorse recommendation is Litton/Dallas fantastically played and recorded.

I'll definitely give Bernstein's first go-around with the 3rd another listen, but, as I mentioned previously, I don't think I can come away from it with the same kind of enthusiasm as I had for his DG remake. There is something truly special about his DG recording and the fact of the matter is that right now I can't get it out of my mind.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on October 24, 2016, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 08:58:42 PM
I'll definitely give Bernstein's first go-around with the 3rd another listen, but, as I mentioned previously, I don't think I can come away from it with the same kind of enthusiasm as I had for his DG remake. There is something truly special about his DG recording and the fact of the matter is that right now I can't get it out of my mind.

I feel the same way, except the opposite. I love Bernstein's CBS M3, while the DG version sounds off somehow. I hardly ever play it. Imprint concept at work, I suppose. It was my first M3. I like some others, though: Abbado/Vienna, Tilson-Thomas, Esa-Pekka Salonen. Just not Bernstein's DG version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: GioCar on October 24, 2016, 11:26:46 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2016, 09:56:29 AM
I appreciate your recommendations, GioCar. I'm just being honest. By the way, I now recall Chailly's 3rd and actually wrote a simpleton review of it on Amazon. I recall being very impressed with it at the time. 8)

Here's my review of Chailly's 3rd (written in '09):

Riccardo Chailly's Mahler cycle is one of the best recorded and performed I've heard (and I own them all). I'm reviewing this performance of Mahler's third symphony, because I think it stands as one of the great achievements of Chailly's cycle. The Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra play amazingly well here. After hearing this performance, I was fully convinced of the beauty this symphony had to offer.

Chailly is up against some very stiff competition in this symphony: Bertini, Abbado, Bernstein, Tennstedt, Salonen (one of two Mahler recordings he made, the other being "Symphony No. 4"), Haitink (his newer CSO recording is fantastic), Rattle, Horenstein, Mehta, Kubelik, and Boulez. All of these recordings offer great performances, but it is Chailly's that pulls ahead. I think there are three elements that sets this performance apart from the others: the sheer intensity, emotional content, and the pure virtuosity of the RCO.

The first movement "Kräftig - Entschieden," which lasts around 34 minutes is one of the best I've heard from any conductor or orchestra. Chailly has an unbelievable ear for the structure of this long movement. The last minute of this symphony is so intense and just downright exuberant you will think you're speakers are about to explode! The singing from Petra Lang is also first-rate.

Mahler's third isn't recorded as much as his first, second, fourth, fifth, sixth, or ninth, but I think this performance has a lot going for it. I highly recommend Chailly's entire Mahler cycle as the single releases of this cycle are quite expensive. Mahler fans who don't own Chailly's cycle, but aren't sure whether to purchase the box set yet, should try this recording first. If this performance doesn't convince you, then nothing will.

Nice review, John.
I didn't know you belonged to a true Mahlerian family  :)
What about Horenstein/LSO? What do you think of it?
(https://img.discogs.com/1jPbfMECMT07xj4_gZ4mUDpmHww=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-6523921-1421187011-9781.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: GioCar on October 24, 2016, 11:34:47 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 24, 2016, 09:37:28 PM
I'm not a Mahlerian so forgive my potential ignorance.

One thing that I've noticed listening to the majority of his work, is that there seems to be connections between some of his works, especially symphonies.
Was Mahler doing a Shostakovich/Varese/Zappa thing with continuity?

I find this quite fascinating (it's something I've been doing in my own music for a long time already)  :)

Well, surely there is a strong connection between his symphonies 1-5 and his early Lieder/Wunderhorn Lieder. Beside that I let someone else more expert than me (Mahlerian?) answering your question.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 06:15:23 AM
Quote from: Jay F on October 24, 2016, 09:17:46 PM
I feel the same way, except the opposite. I love Bernstein's CBS M3, while the DG version sounds off somehow. I hardly ever play it. Imprint concept at work, I suppose. It was my first M3. I like some others, though: Abbado/Vienna, Tilson-Thomas, Esa-Pekka Salonen. Just not Bernstein's DG version.
I actually listened to the DG Lenny M3 first, before I got to know his earlier CBS version. The earlier effort just feels a bit more spontaneous. It almost seems like the DG remake is trying too hard, as if Lenny is trying to out-do himself which is tall orders even for him. By doing that he misses some of the Wunderhorn nature of the work. Not every passage needs massaging, in the ealier CBS effort he was content to let large sections sort of play themselves yet achieve remarkable results.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 25, 2016, 06:20:43 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 24, 2016, 09:37:28 PM
I'm not a Mahlerian so forgive my potential ignorance.

One thing that I've noticed listening to the majority of his work, is that there seems to be connections between some of his works, especially symphonies.
Was Mahler doing a Shostakovich/Varese/Zappa thing with continuity?

I find this quite fascinating (it's something I've been doing in my own music for a long time already)  :)

GioCar is right in pointing out connections between the songs and the symphonies (and there are many of them), but it's also true that there are connections between some of the symphonies as well.  There's a trumpet figure in the Fourth that opens the Fifth, the major-minor motif of the Sixth appears in the first Nachtmusik of the Seventh, a scalar figure at climaxes in both the Seventh and Eighth, and, because of the way the works were composed, there are a good number of connections between the Third and the Fourth.

More obscure, Mahler reworked a passage from Das klagende Lied for his First Symphony, and Das klagende Lied itself drew on the earliest songs that we have by Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2016, 06:39:16 AM
Quote from: Jay F on October 24, 2016, 09:17:46 PM
I feel the same way, except the opposite. I love Bernstein's CBS M3, while the DG version sounds off somehow. I hardly ever play it. Imprint concept at work, I suppose. It was my first M3. I like some others, though: Abbado/Vienna, Tilson-Thomas, Esa-Pekka Salonen. Just not Bernstein's DG version.

I don't think any of Bernstein's Mahler performances whether they be on Columbia or DG sound off to me except for maybe the inclusion of the boy soprano in the last movement of the 4th on his DG remake. I was onboard with this originally, but now just find it strange, but the rest of the symphony is stunningly performed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2016, 06:41:36 AM
Quote from: GioCar on October 24, 2016, 11:26:46 PM
Nice review, John.
I didn't know you belonged to a true Mahlerian family  :)
What about Horenstein/LSO? What do you think of it?
(https://img.discogs.com/1jPbfMECMT07xj4_gZ4mUDpmHww=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-6523921-1421187011-9781.jpeg.jpg)

:) The best I can remember the Horenstein is very good indeed. I may need to revisit it at some juncture.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 07:54:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2016, 06:41:36 AM
:) The best I can remember the Horenstein is very good indeed. I may need to revisit it at some juncture.
Is that the UNICORN 3rd? I think it is ok, probably in the bottom 3rd of the ones I have listened to. Nothing really spectacular regarding the playing, interpretation, or recording (actually there are some really weird balances in the 1st movement like the miking shifted during the middle of some sustained notes). I suppose when it first came out there weren't that many stereo M3 so it was the top of the heap but right now it is outclassed by pretty much everything out there. Sorry.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 25, 2016, 09:57:08 AM
That Unicorn issue had horrible sound, certainly in its LP incarnation.  Very odd because it was engineered by Bob Auger who was a favourite with audiophiles (or 'Hi-Fi enthusiasts' as they were known back then  ;D ) but he did always seem to favour a brittle sound.

But I agree with this:

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 24, 2016, 05:13:23 PM
I would rank Lenny's SONY M3 as one of his finest recordings and a reference recording if there is one on this work.

Like some others this was my first brush with Mahler. 
My second was a record which is very rarely mentioned these days - Das Klagende Lied conducted by Boulez/LSO
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 25, 2016, 11:37:16 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 25, 2016, 06:20:43 AM
GioCar is right in pointing out connections between the songs and the symphonies (and there are many of them), but it's also true that there are connections between some of the symphonies as well.  There's a trumpet figure in the Fourth that opens the Fifth, the major-minor motif of the Sixth appears in the first Nachtmusik of the Seventh, a scalar figure at climaxes in both the Seventh and Eighth, and, because of the way the works were composed, there are a good number of connections between the Third and the Fourth.

More obscure, Mahler reworked a passage from Das klagende Lied for his First Symphony, and Das klagende Lied itself drew on the earliest songs that we have by Mahler.

I've always felt a resemblance in the very last few bars of the Second and Eighth Symphonies...not one being a clone of the other, but siblings.  As if Gustav, writing the closing bars of a massive choral work, recycled the closing bars of his earlier massive choral work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 11:51:15 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 25, 2016, 09:57:08 AM
That Unicorn issue had horrible sound, certainly in its LP incarnation.  Very odd because it was engineered by Bob Auger who was a favourite with audiophiles (or 'Hi-Fi enthusiasts' as they were known back then  ;D ) but he did always seem to favour a brittle sound.



Yes that is the word I was looking for "brittle". When you hear it you will know it. Initially I thought it was just this release that screwed up the sound:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ieZusZo4L.jpg)

but then I bought this and it was the same:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91bSMcHYtoL._SX466_.jpg)


I think if someone is dying to hear the LSO in this work both Solti or M. Tilson Thomas are top-notch and wonderfully recorded.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 25, 2016, 12:26:33 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 25, 2016, 11:37:16 AM
I've always felt a resemblance in the very last few bars of the Second and Eighth Symphonies...not one being a clone of the other, but siblings.  As if Gustav, writing the closing bars of a massive choral work, recycled the closing bars of his earlier massive choral work.

They are similar, and not just because they're in the same key.  They both have the gongs and the fanfares and such, and even if the thematic material is different, its shape is similar.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 12:30:01 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 25, 2016, 09:57:08 AM
That Unicorn issue had horrible sound, certainly in its LP incarnation.  Very odd because it was engineered by Bob Auger who was a favourite with audiophiles (or 'Hi-Fi enthusiasts' as they were known back then  ;D ) but he did always seem to favour a brittle sound.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 11:51:15 AM
Yes that is the word I was looking for "brittle". When you hear it you will know it. Initially I thought it was just this release that screwed up the sound:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ieZusZo4L.jpg)

but then I bought this and it was the same:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91bSMcHYtoL._SX466_.jpg)

I think if someone is dying to hear the LSO in this work both Solti or M. Tilson Thomas are top-notch and wonderfully recorded.

You and I have had this conversation before, PW. While I acknowledge the, at times, not ideal balance (winds, brass and percussion are very prominent), I don't hear this recording as being poor. Maybe I have tin ears  ;) or maybe, since it was my first M3 (LPs), the sound just seems right for this symphony or maybe I have better pressings (both LP and CD). In any case, I've never had a problem with the sound, and the orchestra's performance and Horenstein's interpretation are stunning. I agree with Tony Dugan: "This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down."

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 25, 2016, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 12:30:01 PM
You and I have had this conversation before, PW. While I acknowledge the, at times, not ideal balance (winds, brass and percussion are very prominent), I don't hear this recording as being poor. Maybe I have tin ears  ;) or maybe, since it was my first M3 (LPs), the sound just seems right for this symphony or maybe I have better pressings (both LP and CD). In any case, I've never had a problem with the sound, and the orchestra's performance and Horenstein's interpretation are stunning. I agree with Tony Dugan: "This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down."

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player  ;D

Sarge

I have the Brilliant set.
I agree with PW about the sound, and with Sarge about the performance.

Quote from: Mahlerian on October 25, 2016, 12:26:33 PM
They are similar, and not just because they're in the same key.  They both have the gongs and the fanfares and such, and even if the thematic material is different, its shape is similar.

Thanks! Nice to know my ears work correctly from time to time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2016, 12:56:08 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 12:30:01 PM
You and I have had this conversation before, PW. While I acknowledge the, at times, not ideal balance (winds, brass and percussion are very prominent), I don't hear this recording as being poor. Maybe I have tin ears  ;) or maybe, since it was my first M3 (LPs), the sound just seems right for this symphony or maybe I have better pressings (both LP and CD). In any case, I've never had a problem with the sound, and the orchestra's performance and Horenstein's interpretation are stunning. I agree with Tony Dugan: "This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down."

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player  ;D

Sarge

"What am I even DOING here? I'm a kazoo player, fer gosh sakes ...."

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 01:42:11 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 12:30:01 PM
You and I have had this conversation before, PW. While I acknowledge the, at times, not ideal balance (winds, brass and percussion are very prominent), I don't hear this recording as being poor. Maybe I have tin ears  ;) or maybe, since it was my first M3 (LPs), the sound just seems right for this symphony or maybe I have better pressings (both LP and CD). In any case, I've never had a problem with the sound, and the orchestra's performance and Horenstein's interpretation are stunning. I agree with Tony Dugan: "This remains one of the greatest recordings of any Mahler symphony ever set down."

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player  ;D

Sarge
No wonder I am having a bit of a deja vu ! It might have been 10 yrs ago? But my opinion regarding Horenstein have not changed. I rather like his Mahler 1st which I think is much better recorded. With his 3rd I wonder in a blind listening test whether it will be as favorable. I can't really think of a BAD recording of this (well maybe SOLTI/CSO...)

HAVEN'T  heard the Solti/LSO in awhile so maybe I will give it another spin when I get a chance. My recollection is that the posthorn solo is rather forward and doesn't have the distant hazy feel you hear in other recordings. It could just be that it is less manipulated than others.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 25, 2016, 04:47:03 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 01:42:11 PM
No wonder I am having a bit of a deja vu ! It might have been 10 yrs ago? But my opinion regarding Horenstein have not changed. I rather like his Mahler 1st which I think is much better recorded. With his 3rd I wonder in a blind listening test whether it will be as favorable. I can't really think of a BAD recording of this (well maybe SOLTI/CSO...)

HAVEN'T  heard the Solti/LSO in awhile so maybe I will give it another spin when I get a chance. My recollection is that the posthorn solo is rather forward and doesn't have the distant hazy feel you hear in other recordings. It could just be that it is less manipulated than others.

I can give you two bad recordings
Mehta with the Bavarian SRO on Farao
Rattle

Rattle's is the worst by far I have heard (I haven't heard the Solti, to the best of my memory). Mehta is merely bland and sometimes boring. Rattle is at its best boring, usually dreary.  The march episodes sound like a march done on a field of muddy jello....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 05:15:02 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 25, 2016, 04:47:03 PM
I can give you two bad recordings
Mehta with the Bavarian SRO on Farao
Rattle

Rattle's is the worst by far I have heard (I haven't heard the Solti, to the best of my memory). Mehta is merely bland and sometimes boring. Rattle is at its best boring, usually dreary.  The march episodes sound like a march done on a field of muddy jello....
Interesting...I don't have too many Rattle recordings but those that I do have are mixed. The Dvorak tone poems are rather good but the Beethoven Symphonies are about as dull as they get (with the Vienna Phil no less).

Regarding SOLTI, my copy of the LSO M2 has a bad edit so the last 20 seconds or so is missing(!) Anyone has that problem or do I just have a bad disc (it is brand new).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on October 25, 2016, 05:24:41 PM
Solti/CSO Mahler 3 is very good...terrific playing, of course, tho overall I think I like Levine's better...the trombone solo [Friedman] on Levine/CSO is really outstanding.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 25, 2016, 05:33:36 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 25, 2016, 09:57:08 AM
That Unicorn issue had horrible sound, certainly in its LP incarnation.  Very odd because it was engineered by Bob Auger who was a favourite with audiophiles (or 'Hi-Fi enthusiasts' as they were known back then  ;D ) but he did always seem to favour a brittle sound.

But I agree with this:

Like some others this was my first brush with Mahler. 
My second was a record which is very rarely mentioned these days - Das Klagende Lied conducted by Boulez/LSO

That recording - like his Gurrelieder on Columbia - is one of the best recordings of that work!  I wore my copy down to nearly nothing!

Jascha Horenstein was always an all-around fave! 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2016, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 12:30:01 PM

And to be further condradictory, the Solti/LSO M3 is not recommendable. The posthorn movement in particular is just ghastly. I don't know what the hell is going on with that solo. I think they hired a kazoo player  ;D

Sarge

Hah! I don't like any of Solti's Mahler and he's definitely on the bottom of my list. I've never been a big fan of his to begin with though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 25, 2016, 06:45:03 PM
I'd appreciate everyone to participate in my Mahler poll (if you can). Thanks!

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26329.msg1010974.html#new (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26329.msg1010974.html#new)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: violadude on October 26, 2016, 12:29:04 AM
Mahler has almost always been one of my favorite composers. I'm very familiar with all the symphonies except for #8 and #10 (something I need to change soon) and I pretty much love all of them.

I've always admired the great lengths to which Mahler sought to diversify his music, both from symphony to symphony as well as within each symphony. Each symphony is a completely different animal, from the youthful, Romantic symphony #1, to the lean childlike glitter, mystery and innocent grotesque of Symphony #4, to the bitter reality reflected in Symphony #6, to the transcendent, profound themes presented in DLVDE.

Each symphony seems to contain everything, folk music, elegant song-writing, "nature sounds", simple effective harmonies alongside the most cutting edge tonal complexities of the time, seemingly every instrument and instrumental combination available to a turn of the century composer.

Grandeur, dark, light, sad, angry, playful, nostalgic, cold, intense, other-worldly, mysterious, mystical, innocent, bitter, hesitant...pick an adjective, any adjective, you can find it expressed in a Mahler symphony.

Another thing that had me hooked on Mahler after extended listening was the way he constantly reinvents, or reinterprets, traditional forms. Newcomers to Mahler often complain that his symphonies are formless or meandering. The fact that his symphonies so often come off this way at first, and yet every single movement he wrote is related to a traditional classical form in one way or another, is a testament to the lengths he went to re-configure the old to express the new.

For example, one of the major changes he made to a form like sonata form, is to (almost) never include traditional repetition of material. Structural points in Classical forms that were traditionally more or less the same, whether that be the exposition repeat, the recapitulation, the da capo repeat of a minuet or Scherzo, under Mahler's pen are all completely transformed every time save three exceptions (Symphony #1 1st movement exposition and second movement, symphony #6 1st movement  exposition).  This makes what could be endless drudgery through paint-by-numbers formula writing into an experience that is always engaging, always surprising, always fluid and subject to change. This makes the music fascinating.

As I got into Mahler's symphonies more, I was also very impressed with how Mahler handled thematic unity and transformation. Everything is inter-related, and nothing is wasted. The first time you listen to a piece, you might notice some theme in one place, the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time you listen to the piece you might notice the theme actually appeared much earlier than you thought (I'm thinking specifically of the 1st movement of symphony #4, the second theme of the second exposition, the sweet calm section right before the development proper,  appears very briefly in the background within the first minute of the movement on most recordings). Every theme is placed strategically, with the grand plan of the entire symphony always in mind. Take symphony #9 the first movement, every single important theme of the movement is presented one after another in a short few seconds. Of course, this first movement has the traditional demarcations of Sonata Form (E D R C) more or less where you would expect them in a 25 minute movement, but strictly from a thematic point of view (not an harmonic one) the first few seconds might as well be the exposition, the rest is just development of those first few themes and it's so masterful.

I love Mahler's orchestration too. I swear there are at least 20 or 30 different sounds that didn't exist in music before Mahler wrote them.

I haven't listened to his music much lately because I know much of it so well. There was a period of time earlier in my life when I was incredibly enchanted with his music, you could say I was in the "honeymoon phase" with my love for his symphonies. During this time, I felt as though lots of other composers wrote music that was good, great even, but somehow Mahler's music was more than just music to me. It was like some indescribable philosophy or something. I still feel that to a certain degree, although as I've expanded my palette that ultra degree of special I felt from Mahler's music has waned a bit. But of course that doesn't mean he wasn't an incredibly unique composer. That's a fact whether anyone feels that special toward his music or not.





Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 26, 2016, 12:41:23 AM
I really love your post, dude. Much of what you have said are things I've always noticed in his music as well. I remember listening to the opening movement of the 7th one time and discovering such remarkable instrumental combinations of which I can't imagine earlier examples. It's one of the reasons I'm most fascinated by that symphony in particular.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 26, 2016, 01:06:12 AM
Very nice post, indeed, violadude! And welcome to GMG, btw.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: GioCar on October 26, 2016, 01:16:04 AM
Thank you for your great post, violadude.
Good to see you over here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 26, 2016, 05:55:47 AM
Great post, violadude. Mahler's music is indeed incredibly special and one-of-a-kind. Please keep those posts coming! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 27, 2016, 04:24:37 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 05:15:02 PM
Regarding SOLTI, my copy of the LSO M2 has a bad edit so the last 20 seconds or so is missing(!) Anyone has that problem or do I just have a bad disc (it is brand new).

My copy is okay. I have "Tthe Originals" (from 2007).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on October 27, 2016, 09:02:08 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 25, 2016, 05:15:02 PMRegarding SOLTI, my copy of the LSO M2 has a bad edit so the last 20 seconds or so is missing(!) Anyone has that problem or do I just have a bad disc (it is brand new).

I have the Originals version, too, and it plays straight through to the end.

I wonder how old your CD player is. One of mine would stop playing CDs that went past a certain point (75 minutes?). Another would make this enormous clacking sound when it got to the end of a too-long CD. Of course, the CD in question is only 71 minutes long, so this probably isn't the issue.

[asin]B00160XIJ8[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 27, 2016, 08:03:26 PM
Speaking of the playability of the Solti 2nd on Originals remaster/reissue, my dad owns it and he said it played fine for him. 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 28, 2016, 03:14:06 AM
An interesting bit of memorabilia: The Guardian has reproduced the review it published of the world-première of the Eighth in Munich in 1910:

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/65f247af243d9bf2ba085d79e2bb6b160c04fcea/0_0_1274_680/master/1274.jpg?w=1065&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=ced915638659a10238e3fcfbf6857161)

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/oct/26/from-the-classical-archive-the-premiere-of-mahler-eighth-symphony-emotional-power-and-uplifting-strength
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 28, 2016, 05:48:34 AM
Quote from: Jay F on October 27, 2016, 09:02:08 AM
I have the Originals version, too, and it plays straight through to the end.

I wonder how old your CD player is. One of mine would stop playing CDs that went past a certain point (75 minutes?). Another would make this enormous clacking sound when it got to the end of a too-long CD. Of course, the CD in question is only 71 minutes long, so this probably isn't the issue.

[asin]B00160XIJ8[/asin]
Same Originals version...

CD player plays other long CDs just fine. Could just be a defect. Oh well. Sucks the ending doesn't work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 28, 2016, 02:23:53 PM
Better than the beginning not working. At least you can have 74 minutes of pleasure before it stops.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 28, 2016, 03:12:49 PM
Quote from: ritter on October 28, 2016, 03:14:06 AM
An interesting bit of memorabilia: The Guardian has reproduced the review it published of the world-première of the Eighth in Munich in 1910:

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/65f247af243d9bf2ba085d79e2bb6b160c04fcea/0_0_1274_680/master/1274.jpg?w=1065&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=ced915638659a10238e3fcfbf6857161)

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/oct/26/from-the-classical-archive-the-premiere-of-mahler-eighth-symphony-emotional-power-and-uplifting-strength

Quotetaking over one hour and thirty minutes to perform

So almost all, if not all, modern performances, are much faster than Mahler's own pacing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 28, 2016, 04:27:09 PM
My favorite version of DLVDE has been Bruno Walter/NYPO.  I am currently listening to this:
(https://www.lpo.org.uk/recordings-and-gifts/index.php?option=com_tessitura_bridge&task=thumbnail&width=650&height=400&path=/images/merchandise/CD0073cover.jpg)
https://www.lpo.org.uk/recordings-and-gifts/117-cd-mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde.html

It is good but Bruno Walters is so much more musical.  The phrasing is exceptional.  Even Bernstein can't match Walters in terms of musicality.  There is such a sense of longing as if someone understood the subtext.  Yannick Nezet-Seguin might be technical but lacks the more important subtext.  Bernstein takes it as an opera where Walters takes it as poetic.

Has this been topped?

https://youtu.be/1VA7OLh-2ZA?t=3163
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 28, 2016, 05:13:47 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 28, 2016, 03:12:49 PM
So almost all, if not all, modern performances, are much faster than Mahler's own pacing.

It's could be that Mahler took an extended break of a few minutes between part I and part II.....I think he did so in another symphony but I can't remember exactly which one (between first and second movements of the 2nd symphony?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 28, 2016, 05:22:48 PM
Quote from: jessop on October 28, 2016, 05:13:47 PM
It's could be that Mahler took an extended break of a few minutes between part I and part II.....I think he did so in another symphony but I can't remember exactly which one (between first and second movements of the 2nd symphony?)

Yes, in fact he instructed performers to take that break.  Chailly did it in Liepzig DVD performance, stepping off the podium but remaining onstage. Probably other conductors.  And several recordings that are on 2 CDs cite Mahler's instruction to explain why they split the recording at that point. And of course a bunch of recordings just ignore it.

But as far as I know Mahler did not do so with the 8th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 28, 2016, 06:59:03 PM
Quote from: relm1 on October 28, 2016, 04:27:09 PM
My favorite version of DLVDE has been Bruno Walter/NYPO.  I am currently listening to this:
(https://www.lpo.org.uk/recordings-and-gifts/index.php?option=com_tessitura_bridge&task=thumbnail&width=650&height=400&path=/images/merchandise/CD0073cover.jpg)
https://www.lpo.org.uk/recordings-and-gifts/117-cd-mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde.html

It is good but Bruno Walters is so much more musical.  The phrasing is exceptional.  Even Bernstein can't match Walters in terms of musicality.  There is such a sense of longing as if someone understood the subtext.  Yannick Nezet-Seguin might be technical but lacks the more important subtext.  Bernstein takes it as an opera where Walters takes it as poetic.

Has this been topped?

https://youtu.be/1VA7OLh-2ZA?t=3163

These three performances seem to be the standard recommendations for Das Lied von der Erde: Ludwig/Wunderlich/Klemperer, Fischer-Dieskau/King/Bernstein, and Baker/King/Haitink.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 29, 2016, 02:38:40 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 28, 2016, 05:22:48 PM
Yes, in fact he instructed performers to take that break.  Chailly did it in Liepzig DVD performance, stepping off the podium but remaining onstage. Probably other conductors.  And several recordings that are on 2 CDs cite Mahler's instruction to explain why they split the recording at that point. And of course a bunch of recordings just ignore it.

But as far as I know Mahler did not do so with the 8th.

As far as I know, that was not Mahler's idea, but another conductor's and Mahler "enthusiastically" agreed, but Henri Louis de la Grange argues, convincingly, that this was more out of an effort to encourage the other conductor to YES, PLEASE perform it, and do WHATEVER it takes. Mahler was desperate, desperate to have his work performed and was willing to agree to just about anything. (Very much the opposite of Strauss; who would have liked to have Mahler's success as a conductor but has his own works -- and indeed those of Mahler, where he had influence -- performed quite easily.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 06:59:40 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 28, 2016, 03:12:49 PM
So almost all, if not all, modern performances, are much faster than Mahler's own pacing.

I doubt the veracity of that report, which could easily be exaggerated.  After all, whenever we have actual timings for a Mahler performance of one of his works, they are faster than today's average.  The Adagietto of the Fifth was around eight minutes I believe.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 29, 2016, 07:11:56 AM
Living With Mahler: A Few Thoughts

I thought I would post a few thoughts here since I've had such a strong Mahler resurgence happen in my life. Over the past seven years, Mahler's music has been in and out of my life. My dad, as I've mentioned many times in my posting past, is huge fan of Mahler. He has tried and tried to get to me to understand Mahler's music over the course of these seven years and, while I did enjoy the music, it just didn't hit me in the same way other composers I loved had done previously. Within these seven years many events have happened to me and my family: my own dad's medical diagnosis ( he has Iga Nephropathy aka Berger's Disease), a falling out with my brother and grandfather, death of an uncle, and my hospitalization (due to a kidney stone), but when I returned to Mahler over the course of each of these events, it's as if the music completely opened up to me anew and I was hearing this composer's soul speak directly to me. I finally felt this music and the glorious emotional power it has over me is beyond words. I suppose this is me saying, in my own rambling way, that it took me this long to understand Mahler, but I never gave up on him because I knew there was something there in his music that I would, over time, find completely compelling, and, most of all, human. Where has Mahler's music been all of my life? Patiently waiting around that musical corner. I may not be the greatest Mahlerian here right now, but give me time and I may very well be. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 29, 2016, 07:11:56 AM
Living With Mahler: A Few Thoughts

I thought I would post a few thoughts here since I've had such a strong Mahler resurgence happen in my life. Over the past seven years, Mahler's music has been in and out of my life. My dad, as I've mentioned many times in my posting past, is huge fan of Mahler. He has tried and tried to get to me to understand Mahler's music over the course of these seven years and, while I did enjoy the music, it just didn't hit me in the same way other composers I loved had done previously. Within these seven years many events have happened to me and my family: my own dad's medical diagnosis ( he has Iga Nephropathy aka Berger's Disease), a falling out with my brother and grandfather, death of an uncle, and my hospitalization (due to a kidney stone), but when I returned to Mahler over the course of each of these events, it's as if the music completely opened up to me anew and I was hearing this composer's soul speak directly to me. I finally felt this music and the glorious emotional power it has over me is beyond words. I suppose this is me saying, in my own rambling way, that it took me this long to understand Mahler, but I never gave up on him because I knew there was something there in his music that I would, over time, find completely compelling, and, most of all, human. Where has Mahler's music been all of my life? Patiently waiting around that musical corner. I may not be the greatest Mahlerian here right now, but give me time and I may very well be. ;D

I'm sorry to hear about the circumstances that led you to Mahler, but there's always room under the tent for another person.

As for becoming the biggest Mahlerian, though...you still have to read this first (not my photo):
(http://alexrossmusic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/07/img_2612_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 29, 2016, 07:35:28 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:28:03 AM
I'm sorry to hear about the circumstances that led you to Mahler, but there's always room under the tent for another person.

As for becoming the biggest Mahlerian, though...you still have to read this first (not my photo):
(http://alexrossmusic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/07/img_2612_3.jpg)

Thanks, Mahlerian. Of course, I was just joking around about being the greatest Mahlerian here. It's not a competition. Those Oxford books look rather interesting. I own this Mahler photo album that I'm going to read through today:

[asin]0810998335[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: GioCar on October 29, 2016, 08:03:08 AM
The truth is that Henry-Louis de La Grange is the greatest Mahlerian of all.
Even the cat seems to agree... :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2016, 12:07:28 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:28:03 AM
As for becoming the biggest Mahlerian, though...you still have to read this first (not my photo):
(http://alexrossmusic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/07/img_2612_3.jpg)

I'm still in the running then  ;) ;D

My photo, my books (Edit: updated the photo)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/PA292015_800.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2016, 12:09:20 PM
Quote from: GioCar on October 29, 2016, 08:03:08 AM
The truth is that Henry-Louis de La Grange is the greatest Mahlerian of all.
Even the cat seems to agree... :D

As do the boys and me

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on October 29, 2016, 05:56:09 PM
Okay Mahlerians. Rather than re-read 180+ pages, I would appreciate recommendations for:

Das Klagende Lied

The 14 Lieder "aus der Jugendzeit"

Symphony No.1


(for the Symphonies I might still just go ahead and buy a box, either Bernstein or Kubelik, but humour me right now).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on October 29, 2016, 06:10:36 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 29, 2016, 05:56:09 PM
Okay Mahlerians. Rather than re-read 180+ pages, I would appreciate recommendations for:

Das Klagende Lied

The 14 Lieder "aus der Jugendzeit"

Symphony No.1


(for the Symphonies I might still just go ahead and buy a box, either Bernstein or Kubelik, but humour me right now).

In order:

Chailly

Doesn't really matter. The only recordings I have of those lieder are in the EMI Complete and DG Complete boxsets.

James Judd/Florida Philharmonic (okay , it's my Florida bias showing, but the FP has been out of business for years now). Or at least one with the Blumine movement attached.

For a full cycle, of the two you mention, Kubelik. Bernstein should be one's second cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on October 29, 2016, 06:17:00 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:28:03 AMAs for becoming the biggest Mahlerian, though...you still have to read this first (not my photo):
(http://alexrossmusic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/07/img_2612_3.jpg)

I had that mug, two cats and one dog ago.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 06:52:33 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 29, 2016, 05:56:09 PM
Okay Mahlerians. Rather than re-read 180+ pages, I would appreciate recommendations for:

Das Klagende Lied

The 14 Lieder "aus der Jugendzeit"

Symphony No.1


(for the Symphonies I might still just go ahead and buy a box, either Bernstein or Kubelik, but humour me right now).

For Das klagende Lied, Chailly is definitely a fine option, though any Mahlerian should eventually hear his original thoughts as well.  They've only been recorded twice, on a disc by Nagano (which I haven't heard) and Jurowski, on DVD:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71x%2BHyQHnpL._SY445_.jpg)

For the early songs, I recommend Hampson.  Some of the songs are orchestrated by Berio, who takes his cues from Mahler's own scorings in many cases:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WvTMTLcOL._SX425_.jpg)

As for Symphony No. 1?  There are lots of great recordings.  It's the symphony that even those who don't otherwise "get" Mahler can get right.  Kubelik is always a good bet here though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 06:56:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2016, 12:07:28 PM
I'm still in the running then  ;) ;D

My photo, my books (Edit: updated the photo)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/PA292015_800.jpg)


Ah, I don't own the set.  Alas, I only read it.  At another forum that made me the greatest Mahlerian by default.  I defer to you in this matter, then!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 29, 2016, 07:00:29 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 29, 2016, 05:56:09 PMDas Klagende Lied

For the first version of the work: Pierre Boulez (but Chailly is also brilliant)
For the revised version of the work: Pierre Boulez
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on October 29, 2016, 07:10:37 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 06:52:33 PM
For the early songs, I recommend Hampson.  Some of the songs are orchestrated by Berio, who takes his cues from Mahler's own scorings in many cases:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WvTMTLcOL._SX425_.jpg)

I saw that disc. I do like Hampson (I have his Mahler with Bernstein, and also have him in Barber). However, the Berio orchestrations are a significant question mark for me.

EDIT: There is a version by Janet Baker and Geoffrey Parsons that might fit my bill...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:13:52 PM
Quote from: jessop on October 29, 2016, 07:00:29 PM
For the first version of the work: Pierre Boulez (but Chailly is also brilliant)
For the revised version of the work: Pierre Boulez

Boulez didn't record the true first version.  He recorded the original Part 1 together with the revised Parts 2 and 3, as did Chailly and most others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:14:49 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 29, 2016, 07:10:37 PM
I saw that disc. I do like Hampson (I have his Mahler with Bernstein, and also have him in Barber). However, the Berio orchestrations are a significant question mark for me.

EDIT: There is a version by Janet Baker and Geoffrey Parsons that might fit my bill...

I wasn't bothered by Berio's work at all.  It doesn't sound quite like Mahler, but it's not especially obtrusive either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 29, 2016, 07:45:44 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:13:52 PM
Boulez didn't record the true first version.  He recorded the original Part 1 together with the revised Parts 2 and 3, as did Chailly and most others.

You pedant :P

I do like the original Part 1, but I don't know the piece well enough to know the difference between the original and revised versions of 2 and 3, thanks for making me aware of this :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on October 29, 2016, 07:46:26 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 29, 2016, 06:10:36 PM
James Judd/Florida Philharmonic (okay , it's my Florida bias showing, but the FP has been out of business for years now). Or at least one with the Blumine movement attached.

I'm not sure you're showing that much bias. Reading up on this one for Symphony No.1, and I've spotted quite a few favourable mentions and no negative ones so far.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 29, 2016, 07:46:33 PM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 29, 2016, 07:35:13 PM
Best conductor of the 20th century: Pierre Boulez?


I think I could stand by that, I have him conducting probably half of my classical CD collection, lol

8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:51:45 PM
Quote from: jessop on October 29, 2016, 07:45:44 PM
You pedant :P

I do like the original Part 1, but I don't know the piece well enough to know the difference between the original and revised versions of 2 and 3, thanks for making me aware of this :)

Once you've heard the original, you won't forget the differences.  One section has the off-stage band playing in a key a semitone away from the main orchestra, and the percussion scoring of Part 3 is heavier.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 29, 2016, 07:56:50 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:51:45 PM
Once you've heard the original, you won't forget the differences.  One section has the off-stage band playing in a key a semitone away from the main orchestra, and the percussion scoring of Part 3 is heavier.
Gosh I need to hear this then...I don't even think I have even heard Nagano's recording or not :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2016, 09:38:32 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 29, 2016, 05:56:09 PM
Okay Mahlerians. Rather than re-read 180+ pages, I would appreciate recommendations for:

Das Klagende Lied

The 14 Lieder "aus der Jugendzeit"

Symphony No.1


(for the Symphonies I might still just go ahead and buy a box, either Bernstein or Kubelik, but humour me right now).

As long as you choose a version that includes the Waldmärchen (must have that!) you can't go wrong. I have Sinopoli, Rattle, MTT, Chailly, Boulez (Sony). Chailly has the best sound. Sinopoli has Studer. Boulez has the best interpretation (for my taste). MTT has magic. Boulez would get my vote if it had better sound--not that it's bad but there is some congestion in heavily scored passages, limited dynamic range, and voices too forwardly balanced. Even so, it still might get my vote :D  But Chailly is the safe recommendation.

The Lieder: I only have Reynolds/Parsons so I can't really make an informed comment.

Symphony No.1:  Honeck/Pittsburgh has won my heart. I still like, though, Maazel/Vienna, Bernstein/Concertgebouw, Abbado/Berlin and Horenstein/LSO. Kubelik not so much these days. If you want Blumine too, Jeffrey's Judd/FL is a good choice...or Levi/Atlanta (keeping the choices in the South  8) )

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 30, 2016, 10:17:38 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on October 29, 2016, 05:56:09 PM
Okay Mahlerians. Rather than re-read 180+ pages, I would appreciate recommendations for:

Das Klagende Lied

Symphony No.1



Das Klagende Lied

I'll second and tenth everyone else with suggesting Chailly:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61mI5EUQEcL.jpg)
Mahler: Das Klagende Lied & Lieder
Riccardo Chailly  (http://amzn.to/2f6oF1J)

If I didn't think that it was better to have the whole shebang, i.e. including the Third Movement, I'd go with Blunier / Braun Guera on MDG, though:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/614Vbc6v7qL.jpg)
Das Klagende Lied / Blumine / Adagio Sy. No.10 (http://amzn.to/2dT7GEc)

Symphony No.1

Here's some reading on that, with recommended & compared versions... and the results (updated): (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bhqCNReuT24/UjnXBRt-QgI/AAAAAAAAHNA/cWqzeNoEv-8/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_1.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/gustav-mahler-symphony-no1-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/gustav-mahler-symphony-no1-part-1.html)


1. Rafael Kubelik, BRSO, Audite (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TQUC/goodmusicguide-20)

2. Pierre Boulez, CSO, DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IIX2/weta909-20)

3. Manfred Honeck, Pittsburgh, Reference (http://amzn.to/2f6rsYX)

4. Otmar Suitner, Staatskapelle Dresden, Berlin Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008K4X2/weta909-20)

5. Rafael Kubelik, BRSO, DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GX9/weta909-20)

5. Bernard Haitink, CSO, CSO Resound (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001Q8UOJ2/weta909-20)

5. Michael Tilson Thomas, SFS, SFSMedia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006L3X0/weta909-20)

Notably, this list does not include a Titan, the symphony as it originally stood... with the Blumine movement and considerably different in orchestration. Just adding Blumine to the Vienna version kind of doesn't do the trick... though Judd/Florida is certainly a good first that does just that.

The Budapest and esp. Hamburg & Weimar Versions are legitimately called "Titan"; they both include Blumine. Good options here are Jan Willem de Vriend (Challenge) (http://amzn.to/2fkiGeW) (Hamburg 1893) and Hermus (Hagen Phil.; oop). Wyn Morris, Hiroshi Wakasugi, Ole Kristian Ruud, Roger Norrington [?], and Antony Hermus also recorded that or the "Weimar" version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 30, 2016, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:13:52 PM
Boulez didn't record the true first version.  He recorded the original Part 1 together with the revised Parts 2 and 3, as did Chailly and most others.

Quote from: jessop on October 29, 2016, 07:45:44 PM
You pedant :P

Just to raise the pedantry stakes, actually he recorded Parts 2 and 3 (but labelled as parts 1 and 2 - tut!), and then recorded Part 1 some time later, issued coupled with the Symphony 10 Adagio..
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 12:07:15 PM
The discussion of Das Klagende Lied is an interesting one as this is one work I don't know well at all. :-[ Thankfully, I have the Chailly performance on the way to help familiarize myself with the work. I do own Boulez's as well, but I suppose I'd just like to wait for the Chailly and let that be my refresher.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 12:08:14 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2016, 09:38:32 AM
As long as you choose a version that includes the Waldmärchen (must have that!) you can't go wrong. I have Sinopoli, Rattle, MTT, Chailly, Boulez (Sony). Chailly has the best sound. Sinopoli has Studer. Boulez has the best interpretation (for my taste). MTT has magic. Boulez would get my vote if it had better sound--not that it's bad but there is some congestion in heavily scored passages, limited dynamic range, and voices too forwardly balanced. Even so, it still might get my vote :D  But Chailly is the safe recommendation.

The Lieder: I only have Reynolds/Parsons so I can't really make an informed comment.

Symphony No.1:  Honeck/Pittsburgh has won my heart. I still like, though, Maazel/Vienna, Bernstein/Concertgebouw, Abbado/Berlin and Horenstein/LSO. Kubelik not so much these days. If you want Blumine too, Jeffrey's Judd/FL is a good choice...or Levi/Atlanta (keeping the choices in the South  8) )

Sarge

A question, Sarge, since you mentioned MTT: what do you think of his SFSO cycle overall?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2016, 12:33:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 12:08:14 PM
A question, Sarge, since you mentioned MTT: what do you think of his SFSO cycle overall?

I haven't heard the whole cycle but what I have heard makes me seasick. Or, maybe it's motion sickness. His, to me, excessive rubato (which, I admit, may be how Mahler conducted) and his extreme tempo fluctuations, are not attractive to me. The Second is actually painful to listen to. The First and Fourth are less a problem but would not be considered favorites. Klagende is the best Mahler I've heard from him...the fairy tale atmosphere palpable. There may be other performances I could relate to. I know some think well of his Ninth.

Sarge   

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2016, 12:33:01 PM
Makes me seasick. Or, maybe it's motion sickness. His, to me, excessive rubato (which, I admit, may be how Mahler conducted) and his extreme tempo fluctuations, are not attractive to me. The Second is actually painful to listen to. The First and Fourth are less a problem but would not be considered favorites. Klagende is the best Mahler I've heard from him...the fairly tale atmosphere palpable. But I haven't heard the whole cycle and there may be other performances I could relate to. I know some think well of his Ninth.

Sarge

Thanks, I suppose why I haven't bothered with MTT's Mahler, or really a lot of MTT's performances in general, is what I perceive to be a superficiality in his music-making. He's done a smashing Janacek recording of Glagolitic Mass and his Ives and Copland are generally well-liked, but when it comes to Germanic repertoire, I just can't take him seriously. Perhaps my own perception is off the mark? Could very well be, but that's how I perceive his Mahler performances to be like.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on October 30, 2016, 02:10:15 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 30, 2016, 10:17:38 AM

If I didn't think that it was better to have the whole shebang, i.e. including the Third Movement, I'd go with Blunier / Braun Guera on MDG, though:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/614Vbc6v7qL.jpg)
Das Klagende Lied / Blumine / Adagio Sy. No.10 (http://amzn.to/2dT7GEc)

I might get this just because of the Klimt painting of Adele Bloch-Bauer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 02:19:04 PM
Quote from: Jay F on October 30, 2016, 02:10:15 PM
I might get this just because of the Klimt painting of Adele Bloch-Bauer.

That seems like a strange motivation to buy a recording or are you just humoring us? :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on October 30, 2016, 02:24:14 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 02:19:04 PM
That seems like a strange motivation to buy a recording or are you just humoring us? :-\

No. Not humoring. I know I like the music, and I know I like "The Woman in Gold." It has quite a history. My mother's father was from Austria, which enhances my level of interest, I suppose. My mother would have had a a brother, and I an uncle, but he died in Dachau early in WWII.

http://www.neuegalerie.org/content/gustav-klimt-and-adele-bloch-bauer-woman-gold
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on October 30, 2016, 02:25:34 PM
Hmm. I've seen enough separate nominations of Kubelik on Audite as first choice for Symphony No.1 that it might be the winner...

Heck. Even David Hurwitz loves it.

EDIT: Although, no exposition repeat in 1st movement. Why do people do that?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
Quote from: Jay F on October 30, 2016, 02:24:14 PM
No. Not humoring. I know I like the music, and I know I like "The Woman in Gold." It has quite a history.

http://www.neuegalerie.org/content/gustav-klimt-and-adele-bloch-bauer-woman-gold

Quite a history indeed. Can't say I like that particular painting from Klimt, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on October 30, 2016, 02:36:05 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
Quite a history indeed. Can't say I like that particular painting from Klimt, though.

Well, you didn't always like Mahler, either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 03:19:20 PM
Quote from: Jay F on October 30, 2016, 02:36:05 PM
Well, you didn't always like Mahler, either.

Okay... :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 30, 2016, 04:41:24 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
Quite a history indeed. Can't say I like that particular painting from Klimt, though.

You know that there was a Hollywood movie recently about that painting featuring Ryan Reynolds playing Schoenberg's grandson?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 30, 2016, 04:41:24 PM
You know that there was a Hollywood movie recently about that painting featuring Ryan Reynolds playing Schoenberg's grandson?

Nope, I had no idea. What was the name of the film?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 30, 2016, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 04:44:04 PM
Nope, I had no idea. What was the name of the film?

Woman in Gold: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2404425/

Needless to say, Reynolds looks very little like Randy Schoenberg...

(http://hsuuntied.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RS_MG_0151-cropped.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 04:51:03 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 30, 2016, 04:47:40 PM
Woman in Gold: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2404425/

Needless to say, Reynolds looks very little like Randy Schoenberg...

(http://hsuuntied.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/RS_MG_0151-cropped.jpg)

Cool thanks. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 05:14:07 PM
What are everyone's favorite performances of the 6th? I've really connected with this symphony over the past month or so. In fact, it's surpassed the 5th as one of my favorites. The 3rd, 6th, and 9th are my favorite Mahler symphonies, although I still have much love for the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 7th. The 1st and 8th haven't quite grabbed me yet, but I plan a revisit of the 1st and the 8th tomorrow.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 30, 2016, 05:17:37 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 29, 2016, 07:28:03 AM
I'm sorry to hear about the circumstances that led you to Mahler, but there's always room under the tent for another person.

As for becoming the biggest Mahlerian, though...you still have to read this first (not my photo):
(http://alexrossmusic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/07/img_2612_3.jpg)
Cute cat.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on October 30, 2016, 05:18:16 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 30, 2016, 05:17:37 PM
Cute cat.

Alex Ross's photo, not mine.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 06:08:35 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on October 30, 2016, 05:18:16 PM
Alex Ross's photo, not mine.

What in the world are you doing with Alex Ross' cat? ;) ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on October 30, 2016, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 29, 2016, 06:10:36 PM
James Judd/Florida Philharmonic (okay , it's my Florida bias showing, but the FP has been out of business for years now). Or at least one with the Blumine movement attached.

That one is excellent -- a better choice than Levi, not that Levi is bad -- and no Florida bias here. But I do not find Blumine essential.

I've heard most of the above-mentioned recommendations for 1 and don't think any would be a bad choice. I didn't notice a huge difference between the two Kubeliks.

Can't help on Klagende Lied -- I have the elusive Nagano but not any others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on October 31, 2016, 05:06:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 05:14:07 PM
What are everyone's favorite performances of the 6th?.....

Solti/CSO from '70. Great performance, so well recorded - unrivaled in its vicious, savage intensity - tho the Andante is played with an almost sweet, lyrical, cantabile style which contrasts well with the surrounding storm and torment. Overall, tho pretty brutal....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on October 31, 2016, 05:22:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 05:14:07 PM
What are everyone's favorite performances of the 6th?
[...]

Barbirolli, New Philharmonia.

Skips the repeat in first movement, still... my first choice.

Relentless.
Wuchtig.
Sans pitié.
Shattering.

(Et al.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2016, 06:27:53 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 05:14:07 PM
What are everyone's favorite performances of the 6th?

Of the 29 versions I own, two very different performances are top of my favorites list:

Solti (desert island companion, for the reasons Heck listed plus I love the way he launches the first movement's coda with a slight rhythmic hesitation. Bonus: three hammerblows!)

Szell (for the emotional restraint shown up until the final blast of the fate motif which, considering what's come before, is shocking and shattering in its intensity)

Also like:

Karajan (for the most exquisitely beautiful Andante)

Chailly (for the uniquely grim and stoic, and slow, first movement)

Bernstein/Vienna

Eschenbach/Philadelphia
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 31, 2016, 07:01:56 AM
I don't think I've heard a performance of the 6th that I downright hated.  Bernstein (DG) really impressed me here as did Haitink/Concertgebouw.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 31, 2016, 07:36:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2016, 05:14:07 PM
What are everyone's favorite performances of the 6th? I've really connected with this symphony over the past month or so. In fact, it's surpassed the 5th as one of my favorites. The 3rd, 6th, and 9th are my favorite Mahler symphonies, although I still have much love for the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 7th. The 1st and 8th haven't quite grabbed me yet, but I plan a revisit of the 1st and the 8th tomorrow.
Quote from: Marc on October 31, 2016, 05:22:59 AM
Barbirolli, New Philharmonia.

Skips the repeat in first movement, still... my first choice.
Relentless, Wuchtig, Sans pitié, Shattering.
(Et al.)

Seconded.

l
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2016, 06:27:53 AM
Solti (desert island companion, for the reasons Heck listed plus I love the way he launches the first movement's coda with a slight rhythmic hesitation. Bonus: three hammerblows!)

Seconded, also... thanks to Sarge I overcame my Solti-hesitancy (I don't like his Mahler or Bruckner, as a rule) and gave this a fair shake: It's terrific.

Here's the obligatory link to the Mahler survey:

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xW1s3W_WvFk/VwF5iKF-3ZI/AAAAAAAAJCU/ufzQMaNosYg1wZywN0OAgqa0pIwXV_vLA/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_6.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html)

Like Sarge, I think there are (at least) two very different ways to success in the Sixth and I like him I have favorites in both camps. Solti, because the survey hasn't been updated since, would make my Top Choices, easily; Szell not at all, though. Between the two different approaches, though, I'll be the first to admit that I prefer it Rough.



Mahler 6 "Rough" Choices

1. Benjamin Zander, Philharmonia, Telarc (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006FSR9/goodmusicguide-20)

2. Pierre Boulez, WPh, DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GOZ/goodmusicguide-20)

3. John Barbirolli, New Philharmonia, EMI/Warner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001EC6JOE/goodmusicguide-20)

4. Dimitri Mitropoulos, WDR SO, EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006J3L9/goodmusicguide-20) [SQ caveat]

5. Michael Gielen, SWR SO BB/F, Hässler (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Y4NS/goodmusicguide-20)

Mahler 6 "Neat" Choices

1. Iván Fischer, Budapest FO, Channel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EULVZ4/goodmusicguide-20)

2. Herbert von Karajan, BPh, DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TEUZ/goodmusicguide-20)

3. Michael Tilson Thomas, SFS, SFSMedia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Z3YI/goodmusicguide-20)


Mahler 6 SACD Choice

Christoph Eschenbach, Philadelphia, Ondine (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000GPIBOG/goodmusicguide-20)

Iván Fischer, Budapest FO, Channel Classics (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006A9F5A/goodmusicguide-20)

P.S. Because everyone seems to do it:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5593/30573144242_758bf84148_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 31, 2016, 07:38:49 AM
Thanks for the links, Jens. 8) Also, thanks to everyone for the your feedback. It's always fascinating to read about other people's favorite performances, because not one of them will be the same.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on October 31, 2016, 12:11:04 PM
Besides the Barbirolli / Fischer / Mitropoulos, 2 other versions have ended in my personal favorites over time :

Thomas Sanderling - Saint Petersbourg Phil. Orch. (pretty much D/L only unfortunately)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xAEk8h2YL.jpg)

and that Haitink CSO Resound version - one of the best ends to Mvt IV for me.

[asin]B0015DM3L0[/asin]

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on October 31, 2016, 02:47:23 PM
Probably because it is my imprint version, Bernstein's CBS recording makes every other recording sound wrong, particularly in the first movement. Nearly everything else seems slow. It's my favorite. Back when I used to listen to CDs, I would sometimes put someone else on (Karajan, Barbirolli, Tennstedt, Abbado, Mitropoulous, Cortese), and change to LB halfway through the first movement. "Hey, I could be listening to Bernstein!", like the V8 commercials.

All of that said, there is no version I don't like. I find myself listening to Sinopoli, Levine, Solti, Abbado I, Abbado II. I can't say why, but I find it easier to listen to other versions nowadays. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 31, 2016, 02:54:49 PM
Quote from: Jay F on October 31, 2016, 02:47:23 PM
Probably because it is my imprint version, Bernstein's CBS recording makes every other recording sound wrong, particularly in the first movement. Nearly everything else seems slow. It's my favorite. Back when I used to listen to CDs, I would sometimes put someone else on (Karajan, Barbirolli, Tennstedt, Abbado, Mitropoulous, Cortese), and change to LB halfway through the first movement. "Hey, I could be listening to Bernstein!", like the V8 commercials.

All of that said, there is no version I don't like. I find myself listening to Sinopoli, Levine, Solti, Abbado I, Abbado II. I can't say why, but I find it easier to listen to other versions nowadays.

Levine's 6th is a performance I'm highly interested in as I bought the original CD issue on RCA a few nights ago. I've only heard Levine's 5th and I found that particular performance rather good. What do you think of Levine's other Mahler recordings? His 3rd seems to be one of the most highly rated.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on October 31, 2016, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 30, 2016, 10:17:38 AM
The Budapest and esp. Hamburg & Weimar Versions are legitimately called "Titan"; they both include Blumine. Good options here are Jan Willem de Vriend (Challenge) (http://amzn.to/2fkiGeW) (Hamburg 1893) and Hermus (Hagen Phil.; oop). Wyn Morris, Hiroshi Wakasugi, Ole Kristian Ruud, Roger Norrington [?], and Antony Hermus also recorded that or the "Weimar" version.

The NDRSO with Hengelbrock recently recorded the 1893 Hamburg version for Sony. Sounds great to me, but I haven't heard the ones you listed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 31, 2016, 06:33:32 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on October 31, 2016, 12:11:04 PM

and that Haitink CSO Resound version - one of the best ends to Mvt IV for me.

[asin]B0015DM3L0[/asin]

What do you think of Haitink's CSO recordings of Mahler in general, Olivier? I rather like his Concertgebouw and Berliner cycles (so far).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on November 01, 2016, 12:57:45 PM
I had a slight panic when listening to samples of this for second time...

[asin]B00004TQUC[/asin]

...when I heard a quite loud cough from the audience. I'm instinctively a bit wary of live recordings.

However, I'm listening to the whole 1st movement at the moment via streaming, and I get the impression I stumbled across the loudest cough in the whole thing. Overall the audience seems pretty quiet.

For those that know it, any comments on how this compares to live recordings generally?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on November 01, 2016, 01:00:54 PM
And here's my preferred Sixth:

(http://www.scena.org/blog/uploaded_images/12-Mahler6-782317.jpg)

Also available here:

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/L/P/LPO0100.jpg)

I don't need to say again which recording I despise beyond all others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on November 01, 2016, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 31, 2016, 02:54:49 PM
Levine's 6th is a performance I'm highly interested in as I bought the original CD issue on RCA a few nights ago. I've only heard Levine's 5th and I found that particular performance rather good. What do you think of Levine's other Mahler recordings? His 3rd seems to be one of the most highly rated.

I don't have a lot to say about them, really. I've listened to Levine's 3rd twice since you asked, and very few times prior to this, as is the case for the rest of it. Nothing seems bad about Levine's Mahler. You should try it for yourself, of course. It could hardly cost less. The box set is now available for what you'd have spent on a single CD back in the '80s (look in Amazon Marketplace). I don't think I've listened to all of it more than once all the way through, though (I think at times I have too much Mahler).

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041LXX2G/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 01, 2016, 07:09:15 PM
Quote from: Jay F on November 01, 2016, 01:12:11 PM
I don't have a lot to say about them, really. I've listened to Levine's 3rd twice since you asked, and very few times prior to this, as is the case for the rest of it. Nothing seems bad about Levine's Mahler. You should try it for yourself, of course. It could hardly cost less. The box set is now available for what you'd have spent on a single CD back in the '80s (look in Amazon Marketplace). I don't think I've listened to all of it more than once all the way through, though (I think at times I have too much Mahler).

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041LXX2G/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks for your feedback, Jay. Actually, I bought most of the Levine recordings for blowout prices in their original CD issues on RCA. I suppose the collector inside of me thought that owning the original releases would somehow be better. Anyway, those Sony budget sets are quite convenient and cheap as hell, but I only lack the 1st and 10th now, so I'll keep my eyes out for those (if I can get them for a good price).

I received Levine's 3rd in the mail today, so if I may have to post some thoughts on it once I finish giving it a test drive. Kudos, my friend.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on November 01, 2016, 10:01:36 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on November 01, 2016, 12:57:45 PM
I had a slight panic when listening to samples of this for second time...

[asin]B00004TQUC[/asin]

...when I heard a quite loud cough from the audience. I'm instinctively a bit wary of live recordings.

However, I'm listening to the whole 1st movement at the moment via streaming, and I get the impression I stumbled across the loudest cough in the whole thing. Overall the audience seems pretty quiet.

For those that know it, any comments on how this compares to live recordings generally?

I don't remember audience noise being obtrusive, but you may be more sensitive to it than I am. I'll try to give it a spin this week.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 02, 2016, 08:51:51 AM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 02, 2016, 08:44:06 AM
Just bought:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61g4du0TiIL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71gjLw-BJkL._SL1000_.jpg)

I recall hearing Tennstedt's live M2 a few years ago and being quite impressed with Tennstedt's musicality and the way lovingly shapes certain phrases. Look forward to hearing the whole set plus this live M3, which I've read good things about. I haven't thought much of his studio recordings as the audio quality seemed to somehow compress the large range of dynamics that occur in this music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 02, 2016, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 01, 2016, 07:09:15 PM

I received Levine's 3rd in the mail today, so if I may have to post some thoughts on it once I finish giving it a test drive. Kudos, my friend.

Don't you love the cover on this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81vV5wAz9wL._SL1257_.jpg)

Pretty much sums up what this work is about doesn't it?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on November 02, 2016, 12:30:14 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 02, 2016, 10:21:29 AM
Don't you love the cover on this:

I have commented on that cover before. The back label mentions that it is by Maurice Sendak on commission from RCA. I assume it was much more expensive than most classical record covers. At first I thought, "they wouldn't do that anymore." But really it was probably an outlier even at the time.

Regardless, very cool.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 02, 2016, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 02, 2016, 10:21:29 AM
Don't you love the cover on this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81vV5wAz9wL._SL1257_.jpg)

Pretty much sums up what this work is about doesn't it?

It's certainly a nice cover, but I'm not sure if it sums up the music. That's a bit of a difficult question.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: cilgwyn on November 03, 2016, 03:54:46 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 02, 2016, 10:21:29 AM
Don't you love the cover on this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81vV5wAz9wL._SL1257_.jpg)

Pretty much sums up what this work is about doesn't it?
Wow! I see the vinyl version is only £432.45 on Amazon uk! :o If I found it on a market stall,I'd be half expecting a pop-up story book inside! ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 03, 2016, 02:58:26 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 03, 2016, 03:54:46 AM
Wow! I see the vinyl version is only £432.45 on Amazon uk! :o If I found it on a market stall,I'd be half expecting a pop-up story book inside! ;D
There is one selling on amazon.com in the US for $5.75 in LIKE NEW condition. No option to ship oversees though.

I might buy it just to get a good look at that picture even though I don't have a turntable.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 02, 2016, 06:57:51 PM
It's certainly a nice cover, but I'm not sure if it sums up the music. That's a bit of a difficult question.
Oh come on. If you give Mahler that painting (incidentally titled "What The Night Tells Me") and asked him to write a piece of music about it he would likely have come up with something like the 3rd Symphony. Full moon, Mahler in a gazebo, an angel giving him a bouquet of flowers, one animal on a trombone, another on a flugelhorn. Doesn't get better than that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 03, 2016, 06:47:38 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 03, 2016, 02:58:26 PM
Oh come on. If you give Mahler that painting (incidentally titled "What The Night Tells Me") and asked him to write a piece of music about it he would likely have come up with something like the 3rd Symphony. Full moon, Mahler in a gazebo, an angel giving him a bouquet of flowers, one animal on a trombone, another on a flugelhorn. Doesn't get better than that.

Well, I don't really read too much into album covers. It's the music that determines what I hear and what kind of imagery that it brings to mind is of my own creation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 04, 2016, 01:54:13 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 03, 2016, 02:58:26 PM

Oh come on. If you give Mahler that painting (incidentally titled "What The Night Tells Me") and asked him to write a piece of music about it he would likely have come up with something like the 3rd Symphony. Full moon, Mahler in a gazebo, an angel giving him a bouquet of flowers, one animal on a trombone, another on a flugelhorn. Doesn't get better than that.

And what you can't see, but clever Sendak included, is Mahler also getting a BJ from Anna von Mildenburg in his composition hut. The two dogs on the left caught a glimpse and now they are trying to awkwardly look the other way.  ;)

crosspost:


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwVxNl9XAAAQ2N5.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Mahler's 2nd w/@Munich_Phil & @ValeryGergiev on the new label of the... http://ift.tt/2ffj2Ck (http://amzn.to/2fBBarp)

Review of one of the two concerts this was recorded from: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/28/gergiev-starts-munich-tenure-with-mahler/#1cb752d25329 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/28/gergiev-starts-munich-tenure-with-mahler/#1cb752d25329)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on November 04, 2016, 10:41:01 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 04, 2016, 01:54:13 AM
And what you can't see, but clever Sendak included, is Mahler also getting a BJ from Anna von Mildenburg in his composition hut. The two dogs on the left caught a glimpse and now they are trying to awkwardly look the other way.  ;)

:D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 04, 2016, 06:45:03 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 04, 2016, 01:54:13 AM
And what you can't see, but clever Sendak included, is Mahler also getting a BJ from Anna von Mildenburg in his composition hut. The two dogs on the left caught a glimpse and now they are trying to awkwardly look the other way.  ;)

Mahler porn? :-\ :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 06:58:02 AM
I just wanted to drop by and say I enjoyed every Levine performance I've heard so far. I listened to the 3rd, 4th, and 7th last night. Today, I'll listen to his 5th, 6th, and 9th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on November 07, 2016, 07:01:27 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 06:58:02 AM
I just wanted to drop by and say I enjoyed every Levine performance I've heard so far. I listened to the 3rd, 4th, and 7th last night. Today, I'll listen to his 5th, 6th, and 9th.
And when you're done,  may want to try this   ;):

[asin]B005HMKFMO[/asin]

...or this:

[asin]B004DKDO06[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 07:16:27 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 07, 2016, 07:01:27 AM
And when you're done,  may want to try this   ;):

[asin]B005HMKFMO[/asin]

...or this:

[asin]B004DKDO06[/asin]

Thanks, Rafael. The Orfeo looks especially good as I love the Wiener Philharmoniker in Mahler's music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 07:52:33 AM
I suppose the 8th is the only Mahler symphony which Levine hasn't recorded?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on November 07, 2016, 08:24:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 07:52:33 AM
I suppose the 8th is the only Mahler symphony which Levine hasn't recorded?
So it seems...and I have not heard of any bootleg recordings of live performances, either.

This might be of interest to you, John (if you haven't yet read it); the Hurwizter praising Levine's Mahler: http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15769/

I am tempted by these recordings, I must admit. My late father (a fervent Mahlerian all his life) really liked Levine's takes on the symphonies, and I still recall the old LPs  on the bookshelves at home in Caracas... :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 08:28:06 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 07, 2016, 08:24:14 AM
So it seems...and I have not heard of any bootleg recordings of live performances, either.

This might be of interest to you, John (if you haven't yet read it); the Hurwizter praising Levine's Mahler: http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15769/

I am tempted by these recordings, I must admit. My late father (a fervent Mahlerian all his life) really liked Levine's takes on the symphonies, and I still recall the old LPs  on the bookshelves at home in Caracas... :)

I did happen to catch that Hurwitz review. It seems that, overall, Levine gets high marks from a lot of different online sources. It seems I'm heading down that fervent path that your dad has treaded as well. :) I can see now where you get your good tastes in music. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on November 07, 2016, 08:54:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 08:28:06 AM
I did happen to catch that Hurwitz review. It seems that, overall, Levine gets high marks from a lot of different online sources. It seems I'm heading down that fervent path that your dad has treaded as well. :) I can see now where you get your good tastes in music. ;)

I don't know his records all that well, but I can speak to a wonderful Mahler 6 I heard live from Levine a few years ago when he led the BSO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 09:08:27 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 07, 2016, 08:54:45 AM
I don't know his records all that well, but I can speak to a wonderful Mahler 6 I heard live from Levine a few years ago when he led the BSO.

I bet that was some concert! So jealous. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on November 07, 2016, 07:52:15 PM
Quote from: ritter on November 07, 2016, 07:01:27 AM
And when you're done,  may want to try this   ;):

[asin]B005HMKFMO[/asin]

...or this:

[asin]B004DKDO06[/asin]

I was disappointed in both, mostly because of the sonics. I remember the Israeli performance as slightly better.

That said, the only Resurrection I truly dislike is Abbado/VPO, which managed to make it a boring symphony.  And you have to work at  making M2 a bore.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 07:57:24 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 07, 2016, 07:52:15 PM
I was disappointed in both, mostly because of the sonics. I remember the Israeli performance as slightly better.

That said, the only Resurrection I truly dislike is Abbado/VPO, which managed to make it a boring symphony.  And you have to work at  making M2 a bore.

Wow..I'll be sure not to listen to Abbado's 2nd. ;) Both of Bernstein's are outstanding. This symphony, along with the 8th, don't get much play from me, but what would you say are your favorite performances of both of these symphonies?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on November 07, 2016, 08:50:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 07:57:24 PM
Wow..I'll be sure not to listen to Abbado's 2nd. ;) Both of Bernstein's are outstanding. This symphony, along with the 8th, don't get much play from me, but what would you say are your favorite performances of both of these symphonies?

Abbado/CSO is in fact a very good one. He did three recordings that I know of.  I hold his Lucerne one as merely average.
My overall favorite is probably Bernstein DG for the Second, and MTT/SFSO for the Eighth.

But I love both symphonies, and there are not many recordings of either I actively dislike.  I think I have close to fifty M2s, and the only real important difference among most of them is usually the sonics.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 08:54:56 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 07, 2016, 08:50:00 PM
Abbado/CSO is in fact a very good one. He did three recordings that I know of.  I hold his Lucerne one as merely average.
My overall favorite is probably Bernstein DG for the Second, and MTT/SFSO for the Eighth.

But I love both symphonies, and there are not many recordings of either I actively dislike.  I think I have close to fifty M2s, and the only real important difference among most of them is usually the sonics.

Okay, I think the Abbado 8th that I own is the CSO, so I'm in good shape, then. ;) I'm not sure how many Mahler 2nd recordings my dad owns, but I'm sure it's close to yours. 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 08, 2016, 01:04:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 08:54:56 PM
Okay, I think the Abbado 8th that I own is the CSO, so I'm in good shape, then. ;) I'm not sure how many Mahler 2nd recordings my dad owns, but I'm sure it's close to yours. 8)

It's interesting to see that Abbado (already?!) is no longer being overrated, which was becoming a little ridiculous. I know when I fell off the hype-train, myself. Must have been his Berlin Mahler 6th, which I thought really wasn't very good. I first listened to the M2 from Lucerne before that, so maybe I was still enthralled un-objectively, but I found that -- and the Berlin Third -- quite good, actually. Also the inner movements of his Berlin 7th, which I think are as good as it gets. Also: there is only one Mahler 8th from Abbado, if I am not mistaken, and that's the live recording from Berlin.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61BCfFxoF7L.jpg)
Mahler, Symphony No.8
Claudio Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic
Cheryl Studer, Sylvia McNair, Andrea Rost,
A.S.von Otter, R.Lang, P.Seiffert, B.Terfel,
J.H.Rootering
DG
(http://amzn.to/2fAoUm3)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on November 08, 2016, 01:36:18 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 08, 2016, 01:04:45 AM
Also: there is only one Mahler 8th from Abbado, if I am not mistaken, and that's the live recording from Berlin.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61BCfFxoF7L.jpg)
Mahler, Symphony No.8
Claudio Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic
Cheryl Studer, Sylvia McNair, Andrea Rost,
A.S.von Otter, R.Lang, P.Seiffert, B.Terfel,
J.H.Rootering
DG
(http://amzn.to/2fAoUm3)
Indeed, that's the only one. He was going to perfom it in Lucerne in 2012 (IIRC), but then changed the program (to the Mozart Requiem plus some other piece). Friends of mine who are diehard "Abbadiani+Mahelrians" were rather upset about this, as they had already made plans to attend the festival.

Funnily, in some interview (I don't remember where, but I think it was a Spanish magazine) Abbado had to be reminded that he had recorded the work (even if it was a live concert), as he seemed to have no recollection of that. Yet another leading Mahlerian who apparently didn't care that much for the Eighth.  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 08, 2016, 02:39:28 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 08, 2016, 01:36:18 AM

Funnily, in some interview (I don't remember where, but I think it was a Spanish magazine) Abbado had to be reminded that he had recorded the work (even if it was a live concert), as he seemed to have no recollection of that. Yet another leading Mahlerian who apparently didn't care that much for the Eigtht.  ::)

Ouch! :-)

Indeed: Haitink, Abbado, I.Fischer, Boulez... who else? I can imagine Salonen not being a particular fan (but I haven't heard from him on the issue).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on November 08, 2016, 09:02:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 07, 2016, 07:57:24 PM
Wow..I'll be sure not to listen to Abbado's 2nd. ;) Both of Bernstein's are outstanding. This symphony, along with the 8th, don't get much play from me, but what would you say are your favorite performances of both of these symphonies?

I like this M2 by Abbado:

[asin]B00000E4D7[/asin].

Are both your Bernstein M2s with the NYPO? Those are favorites of mine, too. I didn't like his first CD release, recorded in Ely Cathedral with the LSO. The sound quality was the worst I'd heard since I began buying CDs, save the first release of the Rolling Stones CDs. Just digihorrible.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on November 08, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: Jay F on November 08, 2016, 09:02:16 AM
I like this M2 by Abbado:

[asin]B00000E4D7[/asin].

Are both your Bernstein M2s with the NYPO? Those are favorites of mine, too. I didn't like his first CD release, recorded in Ely Cathedral with the LSO. The sound quality was the worst I'd heard since I began buying CDs, save the first release of the Rolling Stones CDs. Just digihorrible.

That's the one I thought was the best by far of his three M2 recordings. It may be more easily available in this issue, with an above average M4
[asin]B000001GY5[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2016, 06:41:01 PM
Quote from: Jay F on November 08, 2016, 09:02:16 AM
I like this M2 by Abbado:

[asin]B00000E4D7[/asin].

Are both your Bernstein M2s with the NYPO? Those are favorites of mine, too. I didn't like his first CD release, recorded in Ely Cathedral with the LSO. The sound quality was the worst I'd heard since I began buying CDs, save the first release of the Rolling Stones CDs. Just digihorrible.

Yes, that's the Abbado I own and as I was reading some of the previous posts it seems this CSO performance is a good one and, now, you confirmed it. As for the Bernstein, yes, I own both of New York PO performances. I didn't realize he recorded an earlier one with the LSO. I'll be sure to stay clear of that one. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 08, 2016, 06:43:14 PM
Let me ask you guys a question: do you think Salonen likes Mahler's music?

Judge for yourself...

https://www.youtube.com/v/R-EjpcFv_wQ

I mean it's perfectly fine for anyone to not like Mahler. He's not for everyone of course, but I'm picking up some strange vibes from Salonen. Weirdest interview with Salonen I've ever seen. He's quite fidgety and seems quite nervous.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 09, 2016, 04:25:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2016, 06:43:14 PM
I mean it's perfectly fine for anyone to not like Mahler. He's not for everyone of course, but I'm picking up some strange vibes from Salonen. Weirdest interview with Salonen I've ever seen. He's quite fidgety and seems quite nervous.

I've found interviewing ESP quite difficult; Finnish people are not great at talking... at least not when they don't feel very comfortable with the vis-a-vis and/or are buzzed. But yes, in that interview (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-salonen-dresden.html), he also offered some pointed remarks on Mahler that suggested, at the least, that he's not an indiscriminate fanboy. But why would or should he be.

QuoteWhen do you get sick of Mahler?

Well, I'm not doing that much Mahler this year

You got it out of your system two years ago...

...I figured the world will be absolutely saturated with Mahler and I thought I'd try not to add to the pollution
I'm doing this [the Third in Leipzig and Dresden with the Staatskapelle] and then I'm doing the Second Symphony in London a year from now... and Number Six in Chicago. That's all.

But there can be too much Mahler...

Well... [seven seconds of silence] there cannot be too much music... good music, that's for sure. But sometimes these anniversaries have this kind of almost opposite effect... that the birthday boy, or the death-day boy, becomes sort of a monster that eats everything else on its path. And of course, ironically, Mahler is the one composer who doesn't need this kind of celebration, because his music is played all the time. He is perhaps the most popular composer in the repertoire at the moment – in many big metropolitan areas. So in a sense I would rather see lesser known but good, interesting, important composers celebrated. For whatever reason... so that their music would be lifted into the consciousness of the wider public. Mahler is doing just fine.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 09, 2016, 05:38:21 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 09, 2016, 04:25:36 AM
I've found interviewing ESP quite difficult; Finnish people are not great at talking... at least not when they don't feel very comfortable with the vis-a-vis and/or are buzzed. But yes, in that interview (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-salonen-dresden.html), he also offered some pointed remarks on Mahler that suggested, at the least, that he's not an indiscriminate fanboy. But why would or should he be.

Well, my suspicions were correct then. I wonder why UE felt the need to interview someone who doesn't really like Mahler's music? I suppose they wanted to get a different perspective?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 09, 2016, 07:44:38 AM
A very interesting interview ! And very plain, honest answers, too.

I don't think Mahler needs overanalysing and especially not the hand wringing, explosive type of performance sometimes heard.  That's why I particularly admire Haitink and Inbal in these works.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 09, 2016, 10:06:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 09, 2016, 05:38:21 AM
Well, my suspicions were correct then. I wonder why UE felt the need to interview someone who doesn't really like Mahler's music? I suppose they wanted to get a different perspective?
I guess EPS fancies himself a composer and probably feels jealous of Mahler. He did record a fabulous M3 with the LAPO on SONY.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on November 09, 2016, 11:33:20 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2016, 06:43:14 PM
Let me ask you guys a question: do you think Salonen likes Mahler's music?

Judge for yourself...

https://www.youtube.com/v/R-EjpcFv_wQ

I mean it's perfectly fine for anyone to not like Mahler. He's not for everyone of course, but I'm picking up some strange vibes from Salonen. Weirdest interview with Salonen I've ever seen. He's quite fidgety and seems quite nervous.

I like his M3 very much. One of my favorites.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on November 09, 2016, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 09, 2016, 10:06:33 AM
I guess EPS fancies himself a composer

I guess conductors fancying themselves as composers has rather a strong precedent in this thread.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 09, 2016, 01:03:49 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on November 09, 2016, 12:48:51 PM
I guess conductors fancying themselves as composers has rather a strong precedent in this thread.
Except other than Lenny none of them are really all that interesting - other than Mahler of course.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on November 09, 2016, 01:25:18 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 09, 2016, 01:03:49 PM
Except other than Lenny none of them are really all that interesting - other than Mahler of course.

I was referring to Mahler. I'm glad the irony at least partially caught up with you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 10, 2016, 12:03:26 PM
Quote from: André on November 09, 2016, 07:44:38 AM
A very interesting interview ! And very plain, honest answers, too.

I agree. I do think he knows a lot of about Mahler and Mahler's music but approaches Mahler from a rather detached and not a personal way.

To call moments in the first movement of the 3rd and the the whole 2nd movement of the 7th as "incredibly banal" is rather incredulous. Banality in itself is a form of expression for Mahler.

A spontaneous and un-rehearsed interview.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 10, 2016, 01:16:55 PM
Exactly. Not all conductors are in awe and tears before a Mahler score.

Actually, I suspect the vast majority do not "understand" Mahler in the sense that Barbirolli had in mind when he mentioned it took him years to understand one of the symphonies  (not "read it", he went on, but internalising its meaning and figuring a way to express it).

Salonen is so very right when, asked about Mahler's notation (innumerable markings), he mentions that Mahler did not trust interprets (probably did not expect them to "understand" his scores in the way that Barbirolli was referring to).

Consequently and by way of contrast, considering the 350%, or 1000%  increase in technical expertise (players and conductors) in the last 100  years, should we not be prepared to give some license to the interprets and trust our own feelings as listeners as to what constitutes a great interpretation of Mahler's music ? And of course accept and celebrate differing opinions  ?

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on November 10, 2016, 01:44:40 PM
Quote from: André on November 10, 2016, 01:16:55 PMActually, I suspect the vast majority do not "understand" Mahler in the sense that Barbirolli had in mind when he mentioned it took him years to understand one of the symphonies  (not "read it", he went on, but internalising its meaning and figuring a way to express it).

Tennstedt, who came to Mahler as an adult, said that younger people cannot fully understand Mahler's works, except for the First, and Schoenberg likewise only came to understand Mahler after first rejecting his music.

There have been a number of Mahler conductors who understood his music pretty poorly: Karajan, Reiner...possibly Gergiev.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 10, 2016, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 10, 2016, 01:44:40 PM
Tennstedt, who came to Mahler as an adult, said that younger people cannot fully understand Mahler's works, except for the First, and Schoenberg likewise only came to understand Mahler after first rejecting his music.

There have been a number of Mahler conductors who understood his music pretty poorly: Karajan, Reiner...possibly Gergiev.
Karajan and Reiner are debatable, but Gergiev has no business touching Mahler's music with a pair of tongs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 10, 2016, 03:34:49 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 10, 2016, 03:19:43 PM
Karajan and Reiner are debatable, but Gergiev has no business touching Mahler's music with a pair of tongs.

Karajan came late to Mahler, but he arrived; his 6th and 9th(s) certainly show plenty of willingness and ability. And they're not as emoting and kitschy as Bernstein, at least. (Although cynics will point out that the BPh would not have played Mahler -- esp. the 9th -- so well, had it not for Barbirolli and Bernstein getting the orchestra used to it.

Reiner's claim to Mahler-fame really only rests on that Fourth, doesn't it?

Gergiev touches everything, granted, whether it's 'his' territory or not; his Mahler, if nothing else, improved steadily... and features some fine, if not exactly riveting, performances. To suggest he had no business conducting it is hyperbole rather than a particularly meaningful statement. LSO 8th and 5th are very good (the first 5th was so bad it was not used for the cycle, although it was recorded); his Munich 2nd struck me as quite fine when I listened to it recently and certainly was fine (if hardly great) in concert.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 10, 2016, 06:40:56 PM
I think it's important for any conductor, and listener, to approach Mahler in their own way. I think conductors should be aware of what Mahler wanted notationally-speaking, but we've heard this music butchered and we've heard it hurled up on it's shoulders and hoisted into a glorious victory march. I don't think Salonen dislikes Mahler's music, but rather offered some realistic criticism and, of course, his own opinion, which we're all entitled to. Some of these UE Mahler interviews were actually kind of painful to watch like Rattle's for example.

https://www.youtube.com/v/7Bsz-2_47cY
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 10, 2016, 06:42:02 PM
Quote from: Jay F on November 09, 2016, 11:33:20 AM
I like his M3 very much. One of my favorites.

I'll have to check it out, Jay. I believe Salonen has recorded (besides the 3rd) the 4th, 6th, and 9th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on November 10, 2016, 06:43:10 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 10, 2016, 03:34:49 PM
Karajan came late to Mahler, but he arrived; his 6th and 9th(s) certainly show plenty of willingness and ability.

I find his Sixth absolutely horrifying.  It is an interpretation that works against the score and its meaning at every juncture.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 11, 2016, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 10, 2016, 03:34:49 PM


Reiner's claim to Mahler-fame really only rests on that Fourth, doesn't it?

Gergiev touches everything, granted, whether it's 'his' territory or not; his Mahler, if nothing else, improved steadily... and features some fine, if not exactly riveting, performances. To suggest he had no business conducting it is hyperbole rather than a particularly meaningful statement. LSO 8th and 5th are very good (the first 5th was so bad it was not used for the cycle, although it was recorded); his Munich 2nd struck me as quite fine when I listened to it recently and certainly was fine (if hardly great) in concert.
Don't forget Reiner's Das Lied.

Gergiev just has very to say about Mahler's music. He is more or less or a "big tune" conductor but Mahler is anything BUT a big tune composer. Mahler's music the different lines often run up against one other in stark juxtaposition, and there is where Gergiev misses most of the points. I THINK #2 is a good performance, 3 is ok but the finale sucks as the ending is completely botched. Haven't heard 6 as Mahlerian said.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2016, 07:01:51 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 11, 2016, 04:48:13 AM
Don't forget Reiner's Das Lied.

Gergiev just has very to say about Mahler's music. He is more or less or a "big tune" conductor but Mahler is anything BUT a big tune composer. Mahler's music the different lines often run up against one other in start juxtaposition, and there is where Gergiev misses most of the points. I THINK #2 is a good performance, 3 is ok but the finale sucks as the ending is completely botched. Haven't heard 6 as Mahlerian said.

I also don't think Gergiev is too good of a Mahlerian. As you said, Mahler's music isn't 'big tune' music. It's about taking the listener on an emotional and spiritual journey. There needs to be on ongoing narrative expressed and Gergiev's interpretation just seems to be going from one musical episode to another without any kind of understanding for how the music got there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 11, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 11, 2016, 07:01:51 AM
I also don't think Gergiev is too good of a Mahlerian. As you said, Mahler's music isn't 'big tune' music. It's about taking the listener on an emotional and spiritual journey. There needs to be on ongoing narrative expressed and Gergiev's interpretation just seems to be going from one musical episode to another without any kind of understanding for how the music got there.
Not to bash Gergiev but he conducts everything like its Tchaikovsky whether it is Bruckner, mahler or Beethoven...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2016, 07:53:04 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 11, 2016, 07:28:05 AM
Not to bash Gergiev but he conducts everything like its Tchaikovsky whether it is Bruckner, mahler or Beethoven...

I like Gergiev's Shostakovich and Prokofiev, but have found his approach to the Germanic repertoire to be disappointing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on November 11, 2016, 08:00:52 AM
I sold all my Gergiev. FOP.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on November 11, 2016, 03:34:35 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 10, 2016, 01:44:40 PM
There have been a number of Mahler conductors who understood his music pretty poorly: Karajan, Reiner...possibly Gergiev.

Reiner didn't record alot of Mahler - but the ones he did - #4, and DLvdE are really outstanding...both at the top of the list...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on November 11, 2016, 03:37:06 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 10, 2016, 03:34:49 PM
Reiner's claim to Mahler-fame really only rests on that Fourth, doesn't it?
Das Lied von der Erde - with Forrester/Lewis....outstanding performance = along with Walter/NYPO, my favorite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on November 11, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
Quote from: Heck148 on November 11, 2016, 03:34:35 PM
Reiner didn't record alot of Mahler - but the ones he did - #4, and DLvdE are really outstanding...both at the top of the list...

The reputation of his Das Lied puzzles me.  The singing is absolutely fine, but his conducting is against the score and the fact that he didn't like Mahler's music shines through his perverse take.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 11, 2016, 06:37:50 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 11, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
The reputation of his Das Lied puzzles me.  The singing is absolutely fine, but his conducting is against the score and the fact that he didn't like Mahler's music shines through his perverse take.

Glad I never bothered with that recording!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 12, 2016, 07:28:55 AM

Regarding Gergiev. In this video there are 9 horns where the score calls for 8:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN-GYEdKKs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN-GYEdKKs)

You also see 9 horns here. I am not an expert but is the practice common?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZ6XgRotTY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZ6XgRotTY)


Quote from: Mahlerian on November 11, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
The reputation of his Das Lied puzzles me.  The singing is absolutely fine, but his conducting is against the score and the fact that he didn't like Mahler's music shines through his perverse take.
Really? I agree it is certainly different as Reiner emphasizes voices that you don't hear in other recordings. But the playing (especially horns) is stunning. It is very lean and has a crystalline quality as if you can see through the music. You won't hear the walls of strings sounds. It is worlds away from the likes of Klemperer but I find equally valid.
But just as there are Horenstein cultists out there count me as a Reiner cultist so my views are naturally biased :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 12, 2016, 10:55:57 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 12, 2016, 07:28:55 AM
Regarding Gergiev. In this video there are 9 horns where the score calls for 8:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN-GYEdKKs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN-GYEdKKs)

You also see 9 horns here. I am not an expert but is the practice common?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZ6XgRotTY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZ6XgRotTY)

Really? I agree it is certainly different as Reiner emphasizes voices that you don't hear in other recordings. But the playing (especially horns) is stunning. It is very lean and has a crystalline quality as if you can see through the music. You won't hear the walls of strings sounds. It is worlds away from the likes of Klemperer but I find equally valid.
But just as there are Horenstein cultists out there count me as a Reiner cultist so my views are naturally biased :D

It is just a utility horn.  Basically like an assistant 1st horn due to the physical strain of playing horn.   It's very common in modern large venues playing late romantic or big pieces to have a utility horn to allow the principal a rest from tight embouchure.  Some of it is also psychological.  Like knowing if I start cramping up in my lips, I have an extra set of lips sitting next to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on November 12, 2016, 02:07:39 PM
Well, you learn something new every day. Today it's about utility horns.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 12, 2016, 06:01:42 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on November 12, 2016, 02:07:39 PM
Well, you learn something new every day. Today it's about utility horns.

Yeah, you got to understand the physical strain it takes to play modern symphonic works. When you practice Mahler or Shostakovitch, there is a tremendous physical strain on your body.  Nearly all pro players have physical injuries from practicing and rehearsing these works.  That is why an instrument such as the horn which has an added stress on the embrasure needs some help.  Other brass players employ an assistant as well but the horn has a greater strain than most because they play more frequently than trumpets and trombones.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 13, 2016, 05:01:33 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 12, 2016, 06:01:42 PM
Yeah, you got to understand the physical strain it takes to play modern symphonic works. When you practice Mahler or Shostakovitch, there is a tremendous physical strain on your body.  Nearly all pro players have physical injuries from practicing and rehearsing these works.  That is why an instrument such as the horn which has an added stress on the embrasure needs some help.  Other brass players employ an assistant as well but the horn has a greater strain than most because they play more frequently than trumpets and trombones.
So you think it is more the norm than the exception that utility horns are used? That's an extra player an orchestra has to pay for.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 13, 2016, 06:25:34 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 13, 2016, 05:01:33 AM
So you think it is more the norm than the exception that utility horns are used? That's an extra player an orchestra has to pay for.

I think it really depends on the repertoire and the orchestral budget since it is a bit of a luxury.  The LA Philharmonic has a huge budget (I believe their 2016-17 budget was $125 million and they have 5 to 6 horns on their roster.  They are actually auditioning to have a utility horn in their roster.  You'll frequently see this player in their big works like Strauss, Mahler, Shosty, etc. but not in Mozart, Brahms, or Haydn.  Most orchestras might just hire the utility horn on an as needed basis rather than have that player in their payroll.  I played in an orchestra and contracted for them frequently and the principal horn would routinely ask for a hand on something like Mussorgsky's Pictures or Stravinsky, etc., basically the more demanding works.

I found this from the Horn society website:
Utility Horn can be called upon to play any part.  It is a title usually designated in conjunction with another title. Many players in professional orchestras have in their contract that their position is "2nd Horn and Utility Horn," or "Assistant Principal and Utility Horn." It simply means that their main duty will be the assigned part (like 2nd or Assistant), but the conductor, personnel manager, or Principal Horn can also ask the player to play any other part that is required.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 16, 2016, 08:30:00 AM
Das Lied von der Erde

(http://media.keepingscore.org/mahler/photos/art304346_popup.jpg)

Although seemingly a set of songs with orchestra, this is for all intents and purposes Mahler's ninth symphony. Das Lied represents a refinement and concentration of the means and expression of the Eighth Symphony. In Das Lied, the same contrapuntally oriented style prevails, but the thinner textures make it seem more pronounced. Also, the more intimate and personal nature of much of the writing is a direct response to the private musings of the Chinese poems rather than a major stylistic upheaval.

Das Lied is an integrated symphonic whole, as the six songs are organized into four parts analogous to symphonic movements. Mahler's harmonic and expressive language is so powerful that he was able to create a progressive effect that unite these songs into a single semantic and artistic entity.

"Das Trinklied vom Jammer der Erde" (The Drinking Song of Earth's Sorrow). The first song is a hybrid of strophic song and sonata form. It stands by itself, not only formally, but in its black, uncompromising defiance of grief in the face of mortality. The powerfully sweeping opening is contrasted with an ethereal central section, but eventually culminates in a weird and shrieking evocation of Man's fate.

"Der Einsame im Herbst" (The Lonely One in Autumn). This resigned song evokes the mists of Fall as the poet grieves over the loss of summer and life. The thin textures and wandering lines perfectly capture bitter loneliness.

"Von der Jugend" (Of Youth). This and the next two songs comprise the "scherzo" of the symphonic structure. They are all shorter, lighter in tone, and nostalgic in mood. Here, memories of young people drinking tea is captured with light and airy pentatonic lines, invoking the innocence and carefree attitude of youth.

"Von der Schönheit" (Of Beauty). A romantic scene. The gentle innocence of the girls is depicted with a delicately moving Andante. At the appearance of the horsemen there is a sudden military outburst in the orchestra, while the voice accelerates into a breathless melody, effectively portraying the maidens' fluttering hearts.

"Der Trunkene im Frühling" (The Drunk in Spring). In spite of a longing central passage, this song is mostly comic in its evocations of nature and a young man's drunken reeling. Mahler here uses an astonishing variety of harmonic and orchestral effects.

"Der Abschied" (The Farewell). There are two separate poems here. The first depicts a solitary figure waiting for a friend to come for a last farewell, the second is the farewell itself. By far the longest movement of the work, Mahler precedes each poem with a lengthy orchestral section, also making this the most instrumentally oriented movement. The first is longing and plaintive, repeated in part after the voice finally enters. The second is a long and moving funeral march, culminating in a huge and tragic climax. In the final stanza, as the poet looks back at life, Mahler composed a resigned and expansive coda.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This has become a work of immense pleasure for me. It's such a gratifying work and one that feels like no other. I'd like to research this work more in-depth, but I know I'll never gain a complete understanding of it as there's such a myriad of approaches that could be taken from it. Right now, my favorite performance is Baker/King/Haitink, but I do like several others: Ludwig/Kollo/Bernstein and Ludwig/Kollo/Karajan. I've never quite warmed to Wunderlich/Ludwig/Klemperer, which seems to still get critical acclaim. What do you guys think of the work and, of the newer performances, have there been any that have impressed you? I just bought the Spence/Connolly/Nezet-Seguin recording and have read good things about it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 16, 2016, 10:13:23 AM
I've gone to the extremes with versions by Vickers (Davis, Steinberg) and Forrester, a very plush and vibrant voice (Reiner, Walter, the same Steinberg, and Szell). It's hard to find an interpretation that encompasses all the emotions and musical marvels that Mahler wrote in the score. In a sense, it's bigger than any interpretation can possibly convey. But I don't think I'll add another version any time soon. I feel kind of saturated.

The NS disc is excellent. Some may consider it bland, I think it has a purity and chasteness that are very touching.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on November 16, 2016, 11:47:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2016, 08:30:00 AM
Das Lied von der Erde

(http://media.keepingscore.org/mahler/photos/art304346_popup.jpg)


That is a very nice picture that is often used in conjunction with Das Lied except that it is a bit anachronistic. The painting is by an artist from the Ming dynastic (ca 1500AD):

http://intelart.blogspot.com/2015/11/british-museum-china-ming-dynasty-ad.html (http://intelart.blogspot.com/2015/11/british-museum-china-ming-dynasty-ad.html)

whereas the Chinese poems on which Das Lied is based are from the Tang Dynasty (around 700AD) so you are off by some 800 yrs.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spineur on November 16, 2016, 07:03:27 PM
The score of the resurrection symphony will be auctioned in Hamburg on Nov 29th.

http://www.cmuse.org/original-score-from-mahlers-resurrection-symphony-exhibited-before-auction/    (http://www.cmuse.org/original-score-from-mahlers-resurrection-symphony-exhibited-before-auction/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 16, 2016, 07:45:47 PM
Quote from: André on November 16, 2016, 10:13:23 AM
I've gone to the extremes with versions by Vickers (Davis, Steinberg) and Forrester, a very plush and vibrant voice (Reiner, Walter, the same Steinberg, and Szell). It's hard to find an interpretation that encompasses all the emotions and musical marvels that Mahler wrote in the score. In a sense, it's bigger than any interpretation can possibly convey. But I don't think I'll add another version any time soon. I feel kind of saturated.

The NS disc is excellent. Some may consider it bland, I think it has a purity and chasteness that are very touching.

Das Lied von der Erde goes through such a myriad of emotions that one or two interpretations could never be enough to get the full picture of the work. I'm looking forward to hearing the DeYoung/Villars/Oue on Reference Recordings (I received this one today) and the Connolly/Spence/Nezet-Seguin on the London Philharmonic house label.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Turner on November 16, 2016, 09:42:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2016, 08:30:00 AM
Das Lied von der Erde
................ Right now, my favorite performance is Baker/King/Haitink, but I do like several others: Ludwig/Kollo/Bernstein and Ludwig/Kollo/Karajan. I've never quite warmed to Wunderlich/Ludwig/Klemperer, which seems to still get critical acclaim ............

Nice to see Bernstein/Ludwig/Kollo/IsraelPO on cbs-sony mentioned; normally I´m not a fan of that orchestra´s recordings, but it´s my favourite. Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig comes second (of the 14 I´ve got), but like you, I find something somehow missing there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2016, 06:02:36 AM
Quote from: Turner on November 16, 2016, 09:42:19 PM
Nice to see Bernstein/Ludwig/Kollo/IsraelPO on cbs-sony mentioned; normally I´m not a fan of that orchestra´s recordings, but it´s my favourite. Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig comes second (of the 14 I´ve got), but like you, I find something somehow missing there.

Yes and what's nice is the Ludwig/Kollo/Bernstein recording is now available in a cheap budget reissue now:

[asin]B004ARZJG4[/asin]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that something was missing in the Ludwig/Wunderlich/Klemperer performance. I've heard some of Klemperer's other Mahler recordings in the past and I never really felt any kind of connection with the way he conducted this composer. His Beethoven, on the other hand, is top-shelf.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on November 17, 2016, 06:35:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2016, 08:30:00 AM
Das Lied von der Erde



Although seemingly a set of songs with orchestra, this is for all intents and purposes Mahler's ninth symphony. Das Lied represents a refinement and concentration of the means and expression of the Eighth Symphony. In Das Lied, the same contrapuntally oriented style prevails, but the thinner textures make it seem more pronounced. Also, the more intimate and personal nature of much of the writing is a direct response to the private musings of the Chinese poems rather than a major stylistic upheaval.

Das Lied is an integrated symphonic whole, as the six songs are organized into four parts analogous to symphonic movements. Mahler's harmonic and expressive language is so powerful that he was able to create a progressive effect that unite these songs into a single semantic and artistic entity.

"Das Trinklied vom Jammer der Erde" (The Drinking Song of Earth's Sorrow). The first song is a hybrid of strophic song and sonata form. It stands by itself, not only formally, but in its black, uncompromising defiance of grief in the face of mortality. The powerfully sweeping opening is contrasted with an ethereal central section, but eventually culminates in a weird and shrieking evocation of Man's fate.

"Der Einsame im Herbst" (The Lonely One in Autumn). This resigned song evokes the mists of Fall as the poet grieves over the loss of summer and life. The thin textures and wandering lines perfectly capture bitter loneliness.

"Von der Jugend" (Of Youth). This and the next two songs comprise the "scherzo" of the symphonic structure. They are all shorter, lighter in tone, and nostalgic in mood. Here, memories of young people drinking tea is captured with light and airy pentatonic lines, invoking the innocence and carefree attitude of youth.

"Von der Schönheit" (Of Beauty). A romantic scene. The gentle innocence of the girls is depicted with a delicately moving Andante. At the appearance of the horsemen there is a sudden military outburst in the orchestra, while the voice accelerates into a breathless melody, effectively portraying the maidens' fluttering hearts.

"Der Trunkene im Frühling" (The Drunk in Spring). In spite of a longing central passage, this song is mostly comic in its evocations of nature and a young man's drunken reeling. Mahler here uses an astonishing variety of harmonic and orchestral effects.

"Der Abschied" (The Farewell). ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This has become a work of immense pleasure for me. It's such a gratifying work and one that feels like no other. I'd like to research this work more in-depth, but I know I'll never gain a complete understanding of it as there's such a myriad of approaches that could be taken from it. Right now, my favorite performance is Baker/King/Haitink, but I do like several others: Ludwig/Kollo/Bernstein and Ludwig/Kollo/Karajan. I've never quite warmed to Wunderlich/Ludwig/Klemperer, which seems to still get critical acclaim. What do you guys think of the work and, of the newer performances, have there been any that have impressed you? I just bought the Spence/Connolly/Nezet-Seguin recording and have read good things about it.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg749136/topicseen.html#msg749136


Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2016, 06:37:24 AM
Quote from: knight66 on November 17, 2016, 06:35:05 AM
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg749136/topicseen.html#msg749136


Mike

Excellent review, Mike. Glad I made a good choice. 8)
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 08:20:44 AM
It took years for me to "get" the Klemperer but now it's probably my top choice. It really demonstrates the symphonic aspect of the score more than other recordings I know (and I've heard a lot!).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2016, 08:35:30 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 08:20:44 AM
It took years for me to "get" the Klemperer but now it's probably my top choice. It really demonstrates the symphonic aspect of the score more than other recordings I know (and I've heard a lot!).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have you heard the Baker/King/Haitink performance per chance, Leo? If yes, what did you think about it?
Title: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 09:22:54 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2016, 08:35:30 AM
Have you heard the Baker/King/Haitink performance per chance, Leo? If yes, what did you think about it?

It's been awhile (I must revisit this again) but it's a very beautifully balanced and solid account - again another symphonic take thanks to Haitink's rigorous battle with form, which is always fascinating and illuminating. Haitink is one of my favorite Mahler conductors next to Abbado.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 04:45:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2016, 08:35:30 AM
Have you heard the Baker/King/Haitink performance per chance, Leo? If yes, what did you think about it?

I'm revisiting this recording tonight, and wow - it's eye opening. The orchestral detail has bite. It's so amazing!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 04:46:45 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2016, 07:45:47 PM
Das Lied von der Erde goes through such a myriad of emotions that one or two interpretations could never be enough to get the full picture of the work. I'm looking forward to hearing the DeYoung/Villars/Oue on Reference Recordings (I received this one today) and the Connolly/Spence/Nezet-Seguin on the London Philharmonic house label.

I haven't heard the Oue yet but I have it. The Nezet-Seguin is fantastic!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 17, 2016, 06:54:44 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 04:46:45 PM
I haven't heard the Oue yet but I have it. The Nezet-Seguin is fantastic!

I'm glad you find it to your liking. I do, too. He's a hometown boy I've followed for the past 20 years, so I never know if my perception is objective  :). 

I was present at a few of his recordings (Bruckner 3, 6, 9 on the ATMA label). Very peculiar experiences: no dramatic gestures, lots of eye contact, lots of "meaning" conveyed through body language. YNS is very short but has a surprisingly broad torso: his upper body conveys a lot of "animal" power. I'm pretty sure he has integrated this characteristic in his conducting.

About this Das Lied: Sarah Connolly is absolutely wonderful. She and NS obviously saw eye to eye for the Abschied. A real, close partnership. Altogether (the tenor and orchestra are important, too  :)) this is a very personal and sincere Das Lied
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 17, 2016, 07:07:03 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 04:46:45 PMI haven't heard the Oue yet but I have it. The Nezet-Seguin is fantastic!

Quote from: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 04:45:10 PMI'm revisiting this recording tonight, and wow - it's eye opening. The orchestral detail has bite. It's so amazing!

Quote from: Leo K. on November 17, 2016, 09:22:54 AMIt's been awhile (I must revisit this again) but it's a very beautifully balanced and solid account - again another symphonic take thanks to Haitink's rigorous battle with form, which is always fascinating and illuminating. Haitink is one of my favorite Mahler conductors next to Abbado.

Agreed on every word. Haitink is one of my favorite Mahlerians, too. Good to hear you enjoyed the Nezet-Seguin. Can't wait to get my copy. 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 20, 2016, 06:49:39 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2016, 08:35:30 AM
Have you heard the Baker/King/Haitink performance per chance, Leo? If yes, what did you think about it?

The Haitink DLvDE is so good, so powerful that I'm going to re-listen to more if not all of his original RCO cycle. Starting with the 9th. Aces!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on November 20, 2016, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 20, 2016, 06:49:39 AM
The Haitink DLvDE is so good, so powerful that I'm going to re-listen to more if not all of his original RCO cycle. Starting with the 9th. Aces!

Glad you enjoy Haitink's Das Lied von der Erde. It's outstanding.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on November 22, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 11, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
The reputation of his Das Lied puzzles me.  The singing is absolutely fine, but his conducting is against the score and the fact that he didn't like Mahler's music shines through his perverse take.

??? Reiner's DLvdE is top-notch - great playing, singing, conducting....I hear nothing perverse or "against the score" at all... 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Heck148 on November 22, 2016, 03:04:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 11, 2016, 06:37:50 PM
Glad I never bothered with that recording!

you're missing a great one!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on December 02, 2016, 06:48:22 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on November 01, 2016, 12:57:45 PM
I had a slight panic when listening to samples of this for second time...

[asin]B00004TQUC[/asin]

...when I heard a quite loud cough from the audience. I'm instinctively a bit wary of live recordings.

However, I'm listening to the whole 1st movement at the moment via streaming, and I get the impression I stumbled across the loudest cough in the whole thing. Overall the audience seems pretty quiet.

For those that know it, any comments on how this compares to live recordings generally?

I finally got back to this. I heard very little audience noise, even between movements. There is no applause at the end. I'm curious where the cough was (though don't expect you to remember after a month).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on December 02, 2016, 10:57:09 PM
Quote from: Pat B on December 02, 2016, 06:48:22 PM
I finally got back to this. I heard very little audience noise, even between movements. There is no applause at the end. I'm curious where the cough was (though don't expect you to remember after a month).

Nope, don't remember, other than from what I said it must have been in one of the excerpts that iTunes uses as a preview. I haven't yet listened to that recording which was part of my massive Presto order, it might well be another month until I get to it because I decided it was going to be the last of the 4 Mahler discs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 04, 2016, 01:16:17 PM
QuoteMahler was 18 years old, when he composed Das Klagende Lied, a work as ambitious and vast in proportions as we'd expect from Mahler, who is already showing his hand here, musically. There are moments in it, where you just expect the first symphony or Des Knaben Wunderhorn  songs to emerge. It is also no wonder he did not get anyone to put on the whole three-movement work with its outsized demands on presenters and performers. It calls for big orchestra, chorus, soloists, boy soloists, and off-stage orchestra, which isn't just expensive to put on, but also – as the ORF RSO performance under Cornelius Meister showed to a considerable degree – difficult to keep all in order.

It was miked, and I suspect a recording to come forth on Capriccio before long. If they manage to capture the long line and atmosphere of the concert and the proper entries of offstageorchestra and chorus of the dress rehearsal, it might be good. Quicker than Chailly... but then again, still not in the same league.

Krenek, Mahler Rarity, Knock-Out Trebles And Velvet Suits
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/12/ORF_Radio_Symphony-Orchestra-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/12/04/krenek-mahler-rarity-knock-out-trebles-and-velvet-suits/#5c7746fb62f5 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/12/04/krenek-mahler-rarity-knock-out-trebles-and-velvet-suits/#5c7746fb62f5)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cy3TQ0BWQAAKmcK.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on December 10, 2016, 06:36:08 PM
Finishing up a first listen of this set
[asin]B01EZBKYFU[/asin]
I would recommend this as an all around set. Everything is done well, and some is more than that, but most importantly, nothing is done less than that. Even level of quality with no misses and a couple of home runs.
The Third and Seventh are top tier performances, the Eighth and Ninth nearly so, the rest perhaps not top tier but certainly nothing to complain about.

Among "21st Century" cycles, this is bettered only by MTT/San Francisco, and given the current pricing of the latter, this set is the better buy. The cycle led by Markus Stenz, which I went through not long ago, is good, but has no clearly superior performances.  Zinman and Gergiev have hits and misses, especially Gergiev.

So Thumbs Up on this set.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 10, 2016, 06:50:38 PM
Thanks for your feedback about the Nott, Jeffrey. I ought to give it a spin at some point.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on January 27, 2017, 02:00:07 PM
Mahler's Sixth Symphony: The Andante Theme
(https://aquicknoteblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/mahler-6.png)
Melodic Analysis of its Three Appearances
(https://aquicknoteblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/27/mahlers-sixth-the-andante-theme/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 11:11:15 AM
I am floored.

I don't think I have listened at all to the Third Symphony before last night.  And (he adds, rather sheepishly) I still have not heard most of it.  One or two souls on GMG know of my presently urgent(-ish) project of getting mp3s of a sizeable chunk of my music library loaded onto portable media so that I have music in the car (no CD player in the 2017 Honda Civic);  so some of the work is, converting .wav and .wma files to .mp3, and some of it is (at last) creating soft copy of (say) 100 CDs.  Chief among those, has been the 37-CD Haydn Symphonies cube (DRD/Stuttgart) . . . but I have also at last seen to the Mahler symphonies in the Lenny Symphony Edition.  These latter (in a couple of cases) required some extra sound-file management, since the movements were split over two CDs, so that the movements appear in correct order as sound files.

One such was the Third Symphony, whose final (sixth) movement is the first track of a CD otherwise occupied by the Randall Thompson e minor Symphony.  On almost a whim, while I continued with "production," I slipped this CD into the player to listen to the conclusion of the Mahler Third.

Many long-standing GMG-ers already know that many years passed before I 'warmed' to the Mahler Symphonies, and even then it was a gradual process.  One experience which helped a great deal was, Jimmy leading the BSO in an incandescent performance of the Ninth.  At any rate, the spotty history of my reconciliation to the Mahler Symphonies resulted in a near-oversight of the fact that the last of the lot for me to get around to hearing, is the Third.

My ears now are much "bigger" (in the Zappa sense), so it is impossible to say such a thing with certainty;  but I wonder, if I had heard Lenny's account of the last movement of the Third, here with the NY Phil, early on, maybe I should have become a Mahler devotee much sooner.  The sixth movement is so exquisite and lush . . . I am floored.

I'm listening again, this afternoon.  Wow.

Just:  Wow.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on February 22, 2017, 12:48:32 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2017, 11:11:15 AM
I am floored.

I don't think I have listened at all to the Third Symphony before last night.  And (he adds, rather sheepishly) I still have not heard most of it.  One or two souls on GMG know of my presently urgent(-ish) project of getting mp3s of a sizeable chunk of my music library loaded onto portable media so that I have music in the car (no CD player in the 2017 Honda Civic);  so some of the work is, converting .wav and .wma files to .mp3, and some of it is (at last) creating soft copy of (say) 100 CDs.  Chief among those, has been the 37-CD Haydn Symphonies cube (DRD/Stuttgart) . . . but I have also at last seen to the Mahler symphonies in the Lenny Symphony Edition.  These latter (in a couple of cases) required some extra sound-file management, since the movements were split over two CDs, so that the movements appear in correct order as sound files.

One such was the Third Symphony, whose final (sixth) movement is the first track of a CD otherwise occupied by the Randall Thompson e minor Symphony.  On almost a whim, while I continued with "production," I slipped this CD into the player to listen to the conclusion of the Mahler Third.

Many long-standing GMG-ers already know that many years passed before I 'warmed' to the Mahler Symphonies, and even then it was a gradual process.  One experience which helped a great deal was, Jimmy leading the BSO in an incandescent performance of the Ninth.  At any rate, the spotty history of my reconciliation to the Mahler Symphonies resulted in a near-oversight of the fact that the last of the lot for me to get around to hearing, is the Third.

My ears now are much "bigger" (in the Zappa sense), so it is impossible to say such a thing with certainty;  but I wonder, if I had heard Lenny's account of the last movement of the Third, here with the NY Phil, early on, maybe I should have become a Mahler devotee much sooner.  The sixth movement is so exquisite and lush . . . I am floored.

I'm listening again, this afternoon.  Wow.

Just:  Wow.

Sounds like your experience with the Third was akin to Schoenberg's "thunderbolt."  He too was a Mahler skeptic before he was a convert.

Heck, even my own first experiences with Mahler, while not explicitly negative, were far from wholly positive.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 22, 2017, 02:00:45 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2017, 11:11:15 AM
I am floored.

...  a near-oversight of the fact that the last of the lot for me to get around to hearing, is the Third.

My ears now are much "bigger" (in the Zappa sense), so it is impossible to say such a thing with certainty;  but I wonder, if I had heard Lenny's account of the last movement of the Third, here with the NY Phil, early on, maybe I should have become a Mahler devotee much sooner.  The sixth movement is so exquisite and lush . . . I am floored.

I'm listening again, this afternoon.  Wow.

Just:  Wow.

It could be that this particular performance is what made everything attractive to your ears! 0:)

Allow me to suggest something (which I have never seen in notes to recordings nor in any other books on Mahler and Bruckner, possibly because the following is just wrong  ;)  ), but to my ears the slow movements of the symphonies of Bruckner - in a collective sense - are an influence in Mahler's Third Symphony, especially for the final movement.  I think in particular of the slow movement for Bruckner's Sixth Symphony, with its little funeral march, and of the Seventh, but possibly others  influenced Mahler as well here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on February 22, 2017, 02:44:25 PM
IIRC the 3rd was my first Mahler symphony recording (Horenstein LSO on Nonesuch). Or maybe it was the 4th with the RCOA under Solti ? In any case, that 3rd was played to death before I reached my 20th anniversary. And I still love it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 04:06:35 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2017, 02:00:45 PM
It could be that this particular performance is what made everything attractive to your ears! 0:)

Could be! Lenny was an important proselytizer on Gustav's behalf.  I used to half-resent that he recorded the Mahler symphonies multiple times, but he never did all six of the Nielsen symphonies.  But at the least, it meant that he really believed in the cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 22, 2017, 04:20:15 PM
Quote from: André on February 22, 2017, 02:44:25 PM
IIRC the 3rd was my first Mahler symphony recording (Horenstein LSO on Nonesuch). Or maybe it was the 4th with the RCOA under Solti ? In any case, that 3rd was played to death before I reached my 20th anniversary. And I still love it.

Hi Andre'!

Yes, Jascha Horenstein was one of the greats!

[asin]B000027HC0[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2017, 02:00:45 PM
Allow me to suggest something (which I have never seen in notes to recordings nor in any other books on Mahler and Bruckner, possibly because the following is just wrong  ;)  ), but to my ears the slow movements of the symphonies of Bruckner - in a collective sense - are an influence in Mahler's Third Symphony, especially for the final movement.  I think in particular of the slow movement for Bruckner's Sixth Symphony, with its little funeral march, and of the Seventh, but possibly others  influenced Mahler as well here.

Your ears are far better versed in all these symphonies, so I lend you credence gladly. Whence else had he gotten the nerve for a 25-minute Adagio? That was no casual invention.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 22, 2017, 04:43:49 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
Your ears are far better versed in all these symphonies, so I lend you credence gladly. Whence else had he gotten the nerve for a 25-minute Adagio? That was no casual invention.
You should listen to Neumann/Czech PO then. The finale clocks in at UNDER 20minutes which is the fastest I have ever heard.

Anyway the finale of the 3rd is in my opinion the greatest single movement in all of music. From the soft opening strings to the glorious brass fanfare Mahler creates such unstoppable momentum. I was fortunate to have listened to it live twice - both times under Haitink with 2 different orchestras and it sounds every bit as good live as it does on recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on February 22, 2017, 07:48:31 PM
Gergiev on LSO Live does that movement in 20'22.  But he still managed to do a very good Third, possibly the best installment in his (admittedly not my favorite) cycle.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on February 22, 2017, 09:18:13 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 22, 2017, 04:43:49 PM
You should listen to Neumann/Czech PO then. The finale clocks in at UNDER 20minutes which is the fastest I have ever heard.

Anyway the finale of the 3rd is in my opinion the greatest single movement in all of music. From the soft opening strings to the glorious brass fanfare Mahler creates such unstoppable momentum. I was fortunate to have listened to it live twice - both times under Haitink with 2 different orchestras and it sounds every bit as good live as it does on recording.

Haitink has a special feel for this movement IMO.
One long flow, without any setbacks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on February 23, 2017, 05:00:19 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
Your ears are far better versed in all these symphonies, so I lend you credence gladly. Whence else had he gotten the nerve for a 25-minute Adagio? That was no casual invention.

It turned out so well that he dropped his original plan for a 7th movement ...

Lennie/NYPO can't be beat in this particular symphony, IMHO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on February 23, 2017, 10:52:32 AM
Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2017, 02:00:45 PM
It could be that this particular performance is what made everything attractive to your ears! 0:)

Allow me to suggest something (which I have never seen in notes to recordings nor in any other books on Mahler and Bruckner, possibly because the following is just wrong  ;)  ), but to my ears the slow movements of the symphonies of Bruckner - in a collective sense - are an influence in Mahler's Third Symphony, especially for the final movement.  I think in particular of the slow movement for Bruckner's Sixth Symphony, with its little funeral march, and of the Seventh, but possibly others  influenced Mahler as well here.

Mahler's relationship with Bruckner is an interesting subject.  On the one hand he grew to dislike his predecessor's approach to form and development (he criticized most of the Romantic-era composers for similar reasons), while on the other he appreciated the grandeur of Bruckner's themes and conceptions.  For all that he took inspiration from late Beethoven and Wagner, though, Bruckner was his forebear in symphonic writing.  He was co-arranger (or sole arranger, perhaps) of the piano transcription of Bruckner's Third, and he was one of the few who stuck through the disastrous premiere of that work.

I've always thought that the most Brucknerian movement in Mahler's output is the scherzo of the First symphony.  It has the ostinatos, the rustic Austrian flavor, and the relatively straightforward form of a Bruckner scherzo, though he truncates the repeat of the first section (as was also done in the Schalk version of Bruckner's Fifth, but that hadn't been performed or published yet when Mahler wrote his work).  One can certainly find influence of individual moments in later Mahler works, and the finale of the Third may be a good example.

Still, there was next to no precedent for ending a work with a slow movement.  Bruckner died after the work's completion, and thus his Ninth ending with the third movement adagio could not have been a model (Mahler refused to conduct the work, for reasons we can only guess).  Tchaikovsky's Sixth is the only prominent example that existed.  Mahler was not fond of the work, although he conducted it several times in New York at the request of the Philharmonic society.  Still, if the form and character of the two movements were not so different from each other, one might be tempted to cite the Pathetique as an influence.

Mahler himself found the idea of ending a work with a slow movement so successful that he did it twice more, in the Eighth and in the Ninth (the Tenth also, the fifth movement of which has two slow sections enclosing a faster section).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 23, 2017, 12:10:18 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on February 23, 2017, 10:52:32 AM
Mahler's relationship with Bruckner is an interesting subject.  On the one hand he grew to dislike his predecessor's approach to form and development (he criticized most of the Romantic-era composers for similar reasons), while on the other he appreciated the grandeur of Bruckner's themes and conceptions.  For all that he took inspiration from late Beethoven and Wagner, though, Bruckner was his forebear in symphonic writing.  He was co-arranger (or sole arranger, perhaps) of the piano transcription of Bruckner's Third, and he was one of the few who stuck through the disastrous premiere of that work.

I've always thought that the most Brucknerian movement in Mahler's output is the scherzo of the First symphony.  It has the ostinatos, the rustic Austrian flavor, and the relatively straightforward form of a Bruckner scherzo, though he truncates the repeat of the first section (as was also done in the Schalk version of Bruckner's Fifth, but that hadn't been performed or published yet when Mahler wrote his work).  One can certainly find influence of individual moments in later Mahler works, and the finale of the Third may be a good example.

Still, there was next to no precedent for ending a work with a slow movement.  Bruckner died after the work's completion, and thus his Ninth ending with the third movement adagio could not have been a model (Mahler refused to conduct the work, for reasons we can only guess).  Tchaikovsky's Sixth is the only prominent example that existed.  Mahler was not fond of the work, although he conducted it several times in New York at the request of the Philharmonic society.  Still, if the form and character of the two movements were not so different from each other, one might be tempted to cite the Pathetique as an influence.

Mahler himself found the idea of ending a work with a slow movement so successful that he did it twice more, in the Eighth and in the Ninth (the Tenth also, the fifth movement of which has two slow sections enclosing a faster section).
Great points as usual Mahlerian. I also cannot think of another precedent of a completed symphony ending with a slow mvt. The closet I got was Sibelius First but that was a few yrs after M3.

Regarding the great finale these comments describe it perfectly:

http://symphonysalon.blogspot.com/2005/12/mahler-symphony-no3.html
(http://symphonysalon.blogspot.com/2005/12/mahler-symphony-no3.html)
THE SIXTH MOVEMENT follows the fifth with no break. All the previous contrasts seem to be resolved in the peaceful calm of this, Mahler's first great symphonic Adagio. The opening theme quotes from the slow movement of Beethoven's last string quartet (Op. 135) - the resemblance is too great to be accidental. The continuation, however, is more in the spirit of Bruckner - one of the few times that Bruckner's and Mahler's styles are really close. The manuscript bears the following inscription, adapted from Des Knaben Wunderhorn:

Vater, sieh an die Wmienn mein!
Kein Wesen lass verloren sein!

Father, look upon my wounds,
Let no creature be lost!

The movement is based on two themes: a simple and soft D-major chorale melody and a more intense and dramatic minor-mode theme. The two themes and their variations alternate - and their developments include subtle recalls of fragments both from the first movement's tragic episodes and a comforting moment from the fifth. All these conflicting impulses are finally united in the powerful closing section, where the dynamics rise to fortissimo (Mahler warns: "not with raw force but with a saturated, noble tone") as the monumental symphony reaches its glorious and ecstatic conclusion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on February 23, 2017, 04:41:37 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 22, 2017, 02:00:45 PM
It could be that this particular performance is what made everything attractive to your ears! 0:)

Allow me to suggest something (which I have never seen in notes to recordings nor in any other books on Mahler and Bruckner, possibly because the following is just wrong  ;)  ), but to my ears the slow movements of the symphonies of Bruckner - in a collective sense - are an influence in Mahler's Third Symphony, especially for the final movement.  I think in particular of the slow movement for Bruckner's Sixth Symphony, with its little funeral march, and of the Seventh, but possibly others  influenced Mahler as well here.


Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
Your ears are far better versed in all these symphonies, so I lend you credence gladly. Whence else had he gotten the nerve for a 25-minute Adagio? That was no casual invention.

Herbert Blomstedt on Bruckner and Mahler at c. 6:30, but the entire interview is worth your time!

"For me, Bruckner is more enigmatic than Mahler."

https://www.youtube.com/v/issTb4oM3O8&feature=share
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 23, 2017, 05:01:23 PM
Quote from: Cato on February 23, 2017, 04:41:37 PM



https://www.youtube.com/v/issTb4oM3O8&feature=share
Man he looks PISSED !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 21, 2017, 03:06:53 PM
Somebody has been placing classic recordings of Mahler's symphonies with so-called "3-D" sound.  Here is the one, the only, Leopold with the Eighth Symphony from 1950:

https://www.youtube.com/v/T8Uf3A4aM-I&feature=share

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JRJoseph on March 21, 2017, 03:23:13 PM
It helps a lot to have heaps any of the Mahler or Bruckner symphonies live since their orchestration are so vast and there is so much going on for such a long time.  When listening to recorded sound you can feel the music more realistically.  At least I can.  It also helps to have great audio equipment of course.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on March 23, 2017, 05:56:09 AM
Quote from: JRJoseph on March 21, 2017, 03:23:13 PM
It helps a lot to have heaps any of the Mahler or Bruckner symphonies live since their orchestration are so vast and there is so much going on for such a long time.  When listening to recorded sound you can feel the music more realistically.  At least I can.  It also helps to have great audio equipment of course.

What some of your favorite Mahler recordings?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JRJoseph on March 28, 2017, 05:38:44 AM
MI. I'm glad you asked this question.  Below are just some of the Mahler symphonies versions I own:

Full sets
Bernstein NY Phil. and Vienna Phil.
Boulez Chicago and Vienna Phil.
Two complete Mahler editions with various conductors and orchestras on DG and EMI
Abbado, Lucerne Festival O. (Blue Ray)
New York Phil. Broadcasts 1948-1982) many great conductors from Barbirolli, Walter, Mitropoulos, etc.
I have many more singles and sets including Zander, Horenstein, Jurowski, Levine

If I had the time I could go on and on.  I believe I have over 200 CDs and 39 DVDs and Blue Rays.  I am not just showing off here.  It just shows my classical music compulsion but at least I do enjoy it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2017, 05:42:24 AM
Quote from: JRJoseph on March 28, 2017, 05:38:44 AM
MI. I'm glad you asked this question.  Below are just some of the Mahler symphonies versions I own:

Full sets
Bernstein NY Phil. and Vienna Phil.
Boulez Chicago and Vienna Phil.
Two complete Mahler editions with various conductors and orchestras on DG and EMI
Abbado, Lucerne Festival O. (Blue Ray)
New York Phil. Broadcasts 1948-1982) many great conductors from Barbirolli, Walter, Mitropoulos, etc.
I have many more singles and sets including Zander, Horenstein, Jurowski, Levine

If I had the time I could go on and on.  I believe I have over 200 CDs and 39 DVDs and Blue Rays.  I am not just showing off here.  It just shows my classical music compulsion but at least I do enjoy it.

This thread is right up your street, then!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2017, 06:36:21 AM
Quote from: JRJoseph on March 28, 2017, 05:38:44 AM


If I had the time I could go on and on.  I believe I have over 200 CDs and 39 DVDs and Blue Rays.  I am not just showing off here.  It just shows my classical music compulsion but at least I do enjoy it.

Don't worry. You wouldn't be in danger of being thought of as showing off, even if you said that you have over 200 CDs and 39 DVDs just of Mahler!. This place is a zoo and we all love bananas!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2017, 06:54:08 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2017, 06:36:21 AM
This place is a zoo and we all love bananas!


Exactly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on March 28, 2017, 08:26:16 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 28, 2017, 06:36:21 AM
Don't worry. You wouldn't be in danger of being thought of as showing off, even if you said that you have over 200 CDs and 39 DVDs just of Mahler!.

You mean that isn't what he meant?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 09, 2017, 08:44:04 AM
Here's to late-night revelations.  My early experience of the score of Mahler's Sixth Symphony was through the Eulenberg score edited by Redlich, who wrote an introductory essay on the work.  At the time, I had little experience in either score reading or analysis, so I was inclined to accept his statements as fact, but among other suspect things stated in the essay, there were two that stuck with me:

- That the finale cannot be in sonata form because the chorale never returns

- That the slow movement's only connection to the rest of the work is how distant it is in terms of key

The first of these is wrong, because the chorale does indeed form a key structural piece of the finale by transforming into the second theme group of the allegro.  As I discovered when mapping out the movement, it is structured in a modified sonata form, but with a lengthy intro and a two-part development, the second part of which begins with the false recapitulation of the introduction.

The second is also wrong, as I discovered when analyzing the movement in greater detail.  E-flat major, the key of the movement, is reached at the heart of the opening allegro movement, and E-flat minor appears in the latter parts of the first movement and the scherzo.  Although the major-minor motif is not present in this one movement, a minor-major motif inverting it is.  Several other elements of the movement's themes and development are more or less closely related to the other movements, but I had never figured out what connection, if any, the opening theme had to the rest of the work until now.

In the middle of the second theme of the first movement, Mahler places a jaunty march variation of the theme, and the associated motif becomes the foundation of the retransition to the recapitulation later in the movement.  Seeing as it links the first and second themes, it's a very logical choice.  Interestingly, this section does not return in the recapitulation, as the second theme is reduced entirely to a single gesture.  It does, however, return in the coda, in the key of e-flat minor (very distant from A minor/major).

The theme of the Andante Moderato is, in  fact, directly derived from the head motif of this section, with only the minor alteration of a major to a minor second (though Mahler composed the inner movements first and thus the derivation goes the other way).

Redlich really should have taken Schoenberg seriously when the latter said that there was absolutely nothing extraneous in this work.
Title: Gustav Mahler [1860-1911] - a new Das Lied . . .
Post by: Scion7 on April 10, 2017, 05:48:13 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VjlbJxBlL._SX425_.jpg). [asin]B01MZZXR1G[/asin]

^ Anyone have it / any good?
Since you know from a previous post I have like seven versions of this,
doubt I spring for it.
Title: Re: Gustav Mahler [1860-1911] - a new Das Lied . . .
Post by: kishnevi on April 10, 2017, 06:08:58 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 10, 2017, 05:48:13 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VjlbJxBlL._SX425_.jpg). [asin]B01MZZXR1G[/asin]

^ Anyone have it / any good?
Since you know from a previous post I have like seven versions of this,
doubt I spring for it.

I can vouch for the quality of Nott's Tudor DLvdE, but I too have held off on this one .
Title: Re: Gustav Mahler [1860-1911] - a new Das Lied . . .
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2017, 06:13:43 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 10, 2017, 05:48:13 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VjlbJxBlL._SX425_.jpg). [asin]B01MZZXR1G[/asin]

^ Anyone have it / any good?
Since you know from a previous post I have like seven versions of this,
doubt I spring for it.

As I prefer a tenor and mezzo or alto in Das Lied, this Kaufmann recording is definitely not a recording that interests me. Kaufmann must have some kind of hellacious, inflated ego to have conceived this kind of project.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 10, 2017, 06:27:05 PM
Excerpts are widely available on the net.  In this new recording the tenor songs are the ones that don't convince me. Mind you, two types of tenor voice are ideal here: heroic in I, lyric in III and V.

As for the high/low voice alternation, no doubt that Mahler knew what he was doing..

But I refrain from condemning the venture. The WP under Nott seem to be a host of angels playing. THAT really caught my attention.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on April 10, 2017, 06:42:49 PM
Quote from: André on April 10, 2017, 06:27:05 PM
Excerpts are widely available on the net.  In this new recording the tenor songs are the ones that don't convince me. Mind you, two types of tenor voice are ideal here: heroic in I, lyric in III and V.

As for the high/low voice alternation, no doubt that Mahler knew what he was doing..

But I refrain from condemning the venture. The WP under Nott seem to be a host of angels playing. THAT really caught my attention.

The Wiener Philharmoniker do have that rustic, burnished sound that just begs for Das Lied to be performed. :) There's no denying that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted: Thoughts on The Ninth (Again!)
Post by: Cato on April 22, 2017, 03:04:35 AM
On a Mahler FaceBook page, someone asked about Mahler's Ninth and "interpretations," so here were my comments:

"Allow me to add a few more thoughts: note the fragmentary opening (i.e. bars 1-7), as if Mahler foresaw - or "foreheard" - the future atomistic concepts of Webern. These fragments, or musical cells, will be used as the basis (in general) of much of what is to come. Turning fragments into a cohesive whole, attempting to change the fragments into something stronger, this could be the unconscious imperative of the work. The 4 bass notes of the harp (F#-A-B-A), a kind of variation on the *Dies Irae* (C-B-C-A) will be heard later at various times, and in variations e.g. the last four notes of the violas in the last bars of the final movement (i.e. G-Ab-Bb-Ab) act as an echo of that opening fragment. Trying to construct a musical universe from atoms, Mahler is perhaps trying to construct an expression of his own life. Two clues about the symphony are found in a letter to Bruno Walter: Mahler said it is "closest to the Fourth" but is also "completely different." Another clue is that Mahler mentioned the work comes after some of the "brutalen Lebensstrudel" ("brutal maelstrom of Life"). If the Fourth deals with the transitory nature of Life in a "voelkisch" or naive manner, the Ninth deals with the same transitory theme with disdain, anger, but especially with resignation. Note the final direction in the score is "Ersterbend" i.e. "dying away."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted M6
Post by: snyprrr on April 22, 2017, 09:52:13 AM
tTried to get excited over M6 today,... couldn't do it :(...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted M6
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 10:32:23 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on April 22, 2017, 09:52:13 AM
tTried to get excited over M6 today,... couldn't do it :(...

Sounds like a personal problem. I LOVE Mahler's 6th. One of the most exquisite pieces of music I know.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted M6
Post by: bwv 1080 on April 24, 2017, 11:42:21 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on April 22, 2017, 09:52:13 AM
tTried to get excited over M6 today,... couldn't do it :(...

there ought to be a pill to help with that
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on April 24, 2017, 11:52:42 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 09, 2017, 08:44:04 AM
Here's to late-night revelations.  My early experience of the score of Mahler's Sixth Symphony was through the Eulenberg score edited by Redlich, who wrote an introductory essay on the work.  At the time, I had little experience in either score reading or analysis, so I was inclined to accept his statements as fact, but among other suspect things stated in the essay, there were two that stuck with me:

- That the finale cannot be in sonata form because the chorale never returns

- That the slow movement's only connection to the rest of the work is how distant it is in terms of key

The first of these is wrong, because the chorale does indeed form a key structural piece of the finale by transforming into the second theme group of the allegro.  As I discovered when mapping out the movement, it is structured in a modified sonata form, but with a lengthy intro and a two-part development, the second part of which begins with the false recapitulation of the introduction.

The second is also wrong, as I discovered when analyzing the movement in greater detail.  E-flat major, the key of the movement, is reached at the heart of the opening allegro movement, and E-flat minor appears in the latter parts of the first movement and the scherzo.  Although the major-minor motif is not present in this one movement, a minor-major motif inverting it is.  Several other elements of the movement's themes and development are more or less closely related to the other movements, but I had never figured out what connection, if any, the opening theme had to the rest of the work until now.

In the middle of the second theme of the first movement, Mahler places a jaunty march variation of the theme, and the associated motif becomes the foundation of the retransition to the recapitulation later in the movement.  Seeing as it links the first and second themes, it's a very logical choice.  Interestingly, this section does not return in the recapitulation, as the second theme is reduced entirely to a single gesture.  It does, however, return in the coda, in the key of e-flat minor (very distant from A minor/major).

The theme of the Andante Moderato is, in  fact, directly derived from the head motif of this section, with only the minor alteration of a major to a minor second (though Mahler composed the inner movements first and thus the derivation goes the other way).

Redlich really should have taken Schoenberg seriously when the latter said that there was absolutely nothing extraneous in this work.

This is great. I knew there was *something* going on there, but I could never quite put my finger on it. Mahler's economic use of materials never fails to astound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 12:05:01 PM
Quote from: Crudblud on April 24, 2017, 11:52:42 AM
This is great. I knew there was *something* going on there, but I could never quite put my finger on it. Mahler's economic use of materials never fails to astound.

+1 Mahlerian's write-ups on Mahler are quite pleasing to read and informative too!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 24, 2017, 04:03:56 PM
Quote from: Crudblud on April 24, 2017, 11:52:42 AM
This is great. I knew there was *something* going on there, but I could never quite put my finger on it. Mahler's economic use of materials never fails to astound.

Agreed.

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 24, 2017, 12:05:01 PM
+1 Mahlerian's write-ups on Mahler are quite pleasing to read and informative too!

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 12, 2017, 08:41:50 PM
Just watched Mahler 1 with Tennstedt in Chicago. A few of the tempo changes are a bit much for me, but otherwise an excellent performance. Well-directed video, too, with very few shots where I wished to see something else.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on June 13, 2017, 05:34:53 AM
I love the 6th but just don't get the 5th.  :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on June 13, 2017, 05:42:06 AM
Quote from: Alberich on June 13, 2017, 05:34:53 AM
I love the 6th but just don't get the 5th.  :-[
That makes two of us...yep, the adagietto is beautiful, and I think the ending is rather fanatstic, but there's something in the structure of the Fifth I don't quite grasp... :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 13, 2017, 06:56:42 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 13, 2017, 05:42:06 AM
That makes two of us...yep, the adagietto is beautiful, and I think the ending is rather fanatstic, but there's something in the structure of the Fifth I don't quite grasp... :-[

I don't know if this will help, but I did a full analysis of the Fifth a few years ago.  I bet I could do better now, but here's a summary.

Mahler parsed out the structure into three parts for a good reason-it shows the way the material of the work is used.  Each part's movements share themes and motifs (there are recurring motifs developed across the entire span of the work, too).

Part 1
I, II - The funeral march acts as an extended introduction to the second movement, which is the traditional sonata form, and the main movement of Part 1.  I say traditional, but it's actually a movement so strange in trajectory and so short for the contrasts involved that it cannot stand on its own.  It links to both the third and the fifth movements.  The first theme of the Scherzo is a transformation of the main theme of the movement, and the rhetoric of the Scherzo appears near the end of the development.  The connection to the finale is more obvious; the chorale that will appear at the end of the work begins to form before it is submerged into darkness, in the key of D major which will be the ending key of the work.

Part 2
III - The Scherzo is the longest and most complex movement, and it needs to be here because it is the dramatic linchpin of the Symphony, bursting out of the gloom and tragedy of the second movement and forging on despite countless interruptions and threats of violence.  It is the first movement in D major, and the work becomes oriented towards that key for the rest of the Symphony.

Part 3
IV, V - As in Part 1, the first of these movements acts as an introduction to the second, and also shares some material with it.  The Adagietto in F is the only movement in a flat key (though of course they appear incidentally), and balances out the excessive sharpness of the first movement.  Likewise, in terms of orchestration, here we have an emphasis on strings in contrast to the wind and brass-heavy preceding movements.  Its middle section especially is taken up and developed further in the finale.  The Rondo-Finale brings the work back around to the D major of the Scherzo, but not beset by the same tendency to violence and reorientation; this movement charges straight forward, and when the chorale appears again it simply proceeds right to the end, with only a sudden unison B-flat interrupting the momentum before the final cadence.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on June 13, 2017, 07:04:32 AM
Many thanls for that, Mahlerian!. Will try to listen to the Fifth sometime soon, taking your comments into account... :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 13, 2017, 07:08:11 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 13, 2017, 07:04:32 AM
Many thanks for that, Mahlerian!. Will try to listen to the Fifth sometime soon, taking your comments into account... :)

No problem.  More generally, the work is filled with the motivic tic of a large leap (ninth, tenth, etc.) acting as an appoggiatura, and this is in all of the movements.  The span of the leap changes depending on the moment, but it's a prominent feature of the work.  The most important climaxes are initiated with versions of this motif.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 13, 2017, 05:12:25 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 13, 2017, 06:56:42 AM
The Adagietto in F is the only movement in a flat key (though of course they appear incidentally), and balances out the excessive sharpness of the first movement.

Excessive sharpness?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 13, 2017, 05:52:18 PM
Quote from: Pat B on June 13, 2017, 05:12:25 PM
Excessive sharpness?

The first movement is in C# minor (four sharps), as most know, which is tonally very far away from D major (two sharps), the goal of the symphony.  In traditional symphonic writing, any movement towards the dominant (sharp) side is balanced by a corresponding movement towards the subdominant (flat) side, and Mahler's use of tonal areas generally corresponds to this principle.  Throughout his works, he was very careful in his treatment of tonal relationships, using keys to intimate things to come as well as mark off important formal divisions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on June 14, 2017, 08:29:46 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 13, 2017, 05:52:18 PM
The first movement is in C# minor (four sharps), as most know, which is tonally very far away from D major (two sharps), the goal of the symphony.  In traditional symphonic writing, any movement towards the dominant (sharp) side is balanced by a corresponding movement towards the subdominant (flat) side, and Mahler's use of tonal areas generally corresponds to this principle.  Throughout his works, he was very careful in his treatment of tonal relationships, using keys to intimate things to come as well as mark off important formal divisions.

Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware of this notion of balance, but it makes sense.

In terms of sharps and flats, F is slightly more distant from D than C#m is. But F is D's parallel minor's relative major...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on July 06, 2017, 05:36:11 AM
Yet another person can't follow Mahler and claims that his music is nonsense:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/mahler-said-his-time-would-come-the-question-now-for-me-is-when-it-will-go/

The fact that a critic hasn't grasped the connections between the movements of the symphonies does not in any way imply that there are no connections between them.  All of the works are very tightly written in terms of the material they use, and it's only Mahler's wide-ranging, always purposeful development that allows them to span such extraordinary lengths.

What do the middle movements of the Third have to do with the outer movements?  Quite a bit!  The fourth and fifth movements rework the first and second theme groups of the first movement, for example, and the second and third movements relate further to those two.

The adagietto of the Fifth is not only a respite between the raucous and joyful movements that flank it (nihilism was not in Mahler's vocabulary, much less did he employ it in a movement he described as "a man in the prime of his life"), but it also transforms the motif that binds the whole symphony together and introduces what will become the secondary theme of the finale.

At any rate, even if the movements were completely separate from each other and formed a sequence of moods, why would that matter?  That would be the traditional symphonic form of many of his predecessors.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 11, 2017, 03:11:24 AM
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/07/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_DG_Mahler-7_Simon-Bolivar-Dudamel_1200_Laurson-1200x469.jpg?width=960)

CD Of The Week: Dudamel's Scherzo To Remember (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/07/07/cd-of-the-week-dudamels-scherzo-to-remember/#64882eb852ef)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on July 11, 2017, 03:21:33 AM
Dudamel's 7th is fairly nice, but a bit of fluff from what I recall
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on July 11, 2017, 05:26:14 AM
Hi Jens ! Thanks for sharing your reviews. They're always a pleasure to read !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 11, 2017, 08:08:16 AM
Quote from: André on July 11, 2017, 05:26:14 AM
Hi Jens ! Thanks for sharing your reviews. They're always a pleasure to read !

Thanks for the kind words. Feedback (of any kind, except for name-calling, perhaps) is much appreciated and valued well beyond what you might think!

Quote from: jessop on July 11, 2017, 03:21:33 AM
Dudamel's 7th is fairly nice, but a bit of fluff from what I recall

You could make that the executive summary of my review, actually. :-)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on July 21, 2017, 10:34:29 AM
Now I enjoy no. 2 and even no. 5 more. I still have some doubts about some aspects of them. For example the Urlicht movement in no. 2, charming for the most part but then there come the lines "Ich bin von Gott und will wieder zu Gott, Der liebe Gott wird mir ein Lichtchen geben". I really dislike the musical accompaniment of those lines although partly it may derive from my dislike of those lines as a text anyway. With 5th I have mixed feelings about the famous Adagietto. On the other hand its calm beauty is pretty, at least in instrumental sound but there is something missing, maybe with the melody itself. The first 2 movements which on the first listenings made no effect on me whatsoever, now have captivated me more or less completely, especially the first movement. Third movement I don't remember much about. 5th movement is ok, what with its Tannhäuser bell motive sounding harmonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on July 21, 2017, 11:17:00 AM
Quote from: Alberich on July 21, 2017, 10:34:29 AM
Now I enjoy no. 2 and even no. 5 more. I still have some doubts about some aspects of them. For example the Urlicht movement in no. 2, charming for the most part but then there come the lines "Ich bin von Gott und will wieder zu Gott, Der liebe Gott wird mir ein Lichtchen geben". I really dislike the musical accompaniment of those lines although partly it may derive from my dislike of those lines as a text anyway.

The same music returns (modified) in the finale, accompanying the transition from the soprano-alto duet to the choral apotheosis.

Quote from: Alberich on July 21, 2017, 10:34:29 AMWith 5th I have mixed feelings about the famous Adagietto. On the other hand its calm beauty is pretty, at least in instrumental sound but there is something missing, maybe with the melody itself. The first 2 movements which on the first listenings made no effect on me whatsoever, now have captivated me more or less completely, especially the first movement. Third movement I don't remember much about. 5th movement is ok, what with its Tannhäuser bell motive sounding harmonies.

The whole Fifth Symphony is interconnected, as I mentioned above, and with repeated listens the connections should be clearer.  The Adagietto is really best thought of as either an interlude or an introduction to the finale.  It is not the goal of the work, but a lovely landmark on the roadside.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on July 25, 2017, 09:09:25 AM
Do we really need another Mahler cycle?  Somehow I doubt it, however here is the first fruit of the projected cycle by Vänskä with the Minnesota Orchestra, on the BIS label.

[asin]B0711CKS48[/asin]
The 5th is among my least favourite of Mahler symphonies however this one caught my attention straight away, an energetic performance and startlingly detailed recording has put this straight to the top of my pile of Mahler 5ths.  Admittedly, it's only a very small pile, comprising just Bernstein/VPO and Gielen, up to now.  This feels like a modern improvement on the Bernstein, perhaps a bit more 'driven', and the Gielen is just too relaxed and provincial-sounding in the company of the other two.

This recording is currently available on introductory offer of high-res (96/24 FLAC) at 'normal' price, from eClassical (http://www.eclassical.com)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on July 27, 2017, 07:37:30 AM
I have a question about Des Knaben Wunderhorn, specifically "Der Schildwache Nachtlied". Some recordings switch between baritone and soprano for the contrasting sections, so that—for example—the "Ich kann und mag nicht fröhlich sein" and "Lieb' Knabe du musst nicht traurig sein" are made to further stand out from each other than they ordinarily would. I find it to be a grating overemphasis, but then I first came to enjoy this song cycle listening to the Boulez disc, which does not use that arrangement. Is this the invention of a would be "clever" conductor or publisher that has since been adopted by others, or did Mahler intend for it to be a performance option like the baritone substitution in Das Lied von der Erde?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: GioCar on July 27, 2017, 07:51:07 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 25, 2017, 09:09:25 AM
Do we really need another Mahler cycle?  Somehow I doubt it, however here is the first fruit of the projected cycle by Vänskä with the Minnesota Orchestra, on the BIS label.

[asin]B0711CKS48[/asin]
The 5th is among my least favourite of Mahler symphonies however this one caught my attention straight away, an energetic performance and startlingly detailed recording has put this straight to the top of my pile of Mahler 5ths.  Admittedly, it's only a very small pile, comprising just Bernstein/VPO and Gielen, up to now.  This feels like a modern improvement on the Bernstein, perhaps a bit more 'driven', and the Gielen is just too relaxed and provincial-sounding in the company of the other two.

This recording is currently available on introductory offer of high-res (96/24 FLAC) at 'normal' price, from eClassical (http://www.eclassical.com)

I've heard it and very honestly I think it is very good, in spite of the terrible Hurwitzian review.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 27, 2017, 08:18:40 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on July 27, 2017, 07:37:30 AM
I have a question about Des Knaben Wunderhorn, specifically "Der Schildwache Nachtlied". Some recordings switch between baritone and soprano for the contrasting sections, so that—for example—the "Ich kann und mag nicht fröhlich sein" and "Lieb' Knabe du musst nicht traurig sein" are made to further stand out from each other than they ordinarily would. I find it to be a grating overemphasis, but then I first came to enjoy this song cycle listening to the Boulez disc, which does not use that arrangement. Is this the invention of a would be "clever" conductor or publisher that has since been adopted by others, or did Mahler intend for it to be a performance option like the baritone substitution in Das Lied von der Erde?

If my score is any indication, a reproduction of the Universal Edition of 1905, Mahler's score simply has "Voce" and no indication is given of it being a duet. 

IMSLP also shows reproductions of turn-of-the-last-century scores with only "Voce" indicated, and no switch between a man and woman.  Certainly the idea of alternating makes sense, but...

Let me check Bruno Walter's recordings!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 27, 2017, 08:55:29 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 27, 2017, 08:18:40 AM

Let me check Bruno Walter's recordings!

Well....

I am amazed: I cannot find a complete recording of Des Knaben Wunderhorn with Bruno Walter conducting.  I thought such an animal would be a clue as to his preference.

There are recordings of other songs as "fillers" but so far...no luck with Der Schildwache Nachtlied.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 27, 2017, 09:04:21 AM
This lists one recording of KW by Walter, limited to two songs, both with the same singer (Hilde Guden)

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/knaben.html

Singing some (four or five, depending on the recording) of the songs as duets seems to have started in the early 1960s with recordings by Kraus, Morris and Bernstein. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 27, 2017, 10:08:35 AM
It is strictly speaking wrong, i.e. neither in the score nor was it common in Mahler's lifetime but some otherwise very impressive recordings (like Baker/Evans/Morris) do some songs as duets: Der Schildwache Nachtlied, Trost im Unglück, Lied des Gefangenen im Turm...
Fortunately it is usually restricted to a few songs. If one looks into the texts, several of them have different narrative voices, e.g. mother and child in "Das irdische Leben", ghost lover (or parting Soldier) and bride in "Wo die schönen Trompeten blasen", but these ones are usually not sung as duets.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 27, 2017, 10:54:37 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 27, 2017, 09:04:21 AM
This lists one recording of KW by Walter, limited to two songs, both with the same singer (Hilde Guden)

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/knaben.html

Singing some (four or five, depending on the recording) of the songs as duets seems to have started in the early 1960s with recordings by Kraus, Morris and Bernstein.

From a book by Mark Gibson called The Beat Stops Here: Lessons On and Off the Podium for Today's Conductor p. 111:

Quote
...there is no evidence that Mahler wanted those songs that feature two characters,  Der Schildwache Nachtlied, for example, to be sung as a duet, with two singers. The duet approach (wrong-headed though some consider it to be) was popularized through a landmark recording of Leonard Bernstein with...Christa Ludwig and her husband...Walter Berry.  I cannot believe that Mahler would have objected strenuously to this approach...  That said, the documentary evidence seems to suggest that the songs are not designed as duets...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2017, 11:13:51 AM
Lenny, you got some 'splainin' to do!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 27, 2017, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 27, 2017, 11:13:51 AM
Lenny, you got some 'splainin' to do!

Would Mr. Bernstein have considered a trio of voices for Schubert's Erlkoenig ?   ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on July 27, 2017, 12:49:36 PM
Lenny may have popularized the idea, but he did not invent it. It was first used in 1962 by Kraus,  then 1966 by Morris, then in 1967 (orchestral) and 1968 (piano) by Bernstein. In the latter year Szell did it with Schwarzkopf and DFD, a threesome capable of resisting the bubble popularity, I think. After them, the duet format was used by, inter alia, Haitink, Inbal, Tennstedt, Colin Davis, and Gielen, not to mention two later recordings by Bernstein and recordings by lesser conductors.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 27, 2017, 01:32:53 PM
Quote from: Cato on July 27, 2017, 12:40:54 PM
Would Mr. Bernstein have considered a trio of voices for Schubert's Erlkoenig ?   ;)
For Erlkoenig one could argue for four: narrator, father, child, Erlkoenig. And on top of that the narrator enters into a dialogue with himself in the first stanza!
I guess Goethe did that maybe to prefigure the question - answer structure of later stanzas and probably also because it makes a good attention-capturing beginning.

And Erlkoenig has been done by "trios"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ60QF6map0

Apparently there is also a version with 3 singers on Vol. 24 "A Goethe Schubertiad" of the Hyperion Schubert series.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 28, 2017, 02:54:31 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 27, 2017, 12:49:36 PM
Lenny may have popularized the idea, but he did not invent it. It was first used in 1962 by Kraus,  then 1966 by Morris, then in 1967 (orchestral) and 1968 (piano) by Bernstein. In the latter year Szell did it with Schwarzkopf and DFD, a threesome capable of resisting the bubble popularity, I think. After them, the duet format was used by, inter alia, Haitink, Inbal, Tennstedt, Colin Davis, and Gielen, not to mention two later recordings by Bernstein and recordings by lesser conductors.
I tend to think that is rather pointless and is worthwhile only as some kind of stunt. The whole point of the work is how one singer can use his/her voice to animate 4 different personalities in a span of about 3 minutes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on August 04, 2017, 01:18:39 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 28, 2017, 02:54:31 PM
The whole point of the work is how one singer can use his/her voice to animate 4 different personalities in a span of about 3 minutes.

I guess some singers are not up to the task.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on August 10, 2017, 07:12:27 PM
I'm taking a class in Mahler's symphonies this fall. 15 weeks x almost 3 hours, nothing but Mahler. I can hardly wait.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 10, 2017, 09:43:49 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on August 04, 2017, 01:18:39 AM
I guess some singers are not up to the task.

Voices, not singers. I don't think that Erlkoenig is convincing sung by a woman. As a light soprano I would never attempt it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on August 17, 2017, 07:38:40 AM
Thanks for clearing that up folks! Sorry I haven't been around, it's been a busy few weeks.

Now I have another question. Did Totenfeier and the first movement of the second symphony grow out of parts of "Der Spielmann", the second movement of Das klagende Lied? I've start to listen through Sinopoli's Mahler recordings (of the modern Mahler conductors Sinopoli is one of the few who seems to approach Mahler with a philosophy beyond "gotta do that Mahler ain't I?", and it makes for an interesting listen, though his propensity for conducting with his vocal cords can be a little off-putting) and noticed some strong similarities between the two, especially in the openings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on August 17, 2017, 07:45:47 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on August 17, 2017, 07:38:40 AM
Thanks for clearing that up folks! Sorry I haven't been around, it's been a busy few weeks.

Now I have another question. Did Totenfeier and the first movement of the second symphony grow out of parts of "Der Spielmann", the second movement of Das klagende Lied? I've start to listen through Sinopoli's Mahler recordings (of the modern Mahler conductors Sinopoli is one of the few who seems to approach Mahler with a philosophy beyond "gotta do that Mahler ain't I?", and it makes for an interesting listen, though his propensity for conducting with his vocal cords can be a little off-putting) and noticed some strong similarities between the two, especially in the openings.

There are semi-quotes from Das klagende Lied in both the First and Second symphonies, as well as the early set of songs usually grouped as Three Lieder that constitutes the earliest music we have outside of the Piano Quartet.

The connection between Das klagende Lied and the opening movement of the Second (as well as its original version, Totenfeier) is in Mahler's particular treatment of the Dies Irae motif.  I'd also point to the "sleeping" motif in the cantata as being similar to the second theme of that movement, as well as related to Wagner's Walkure.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on August 17, 2017, 07:51:43 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on August 17, 2017, 07:45:47 AM
There are semi-quotes from Das klagende Lied in both the First and Second symphonies, as well as the early set of songs usually grouped as Three Lieder that constitutes the earliest music we have outside of the Piano Quartet.

The connection between Das klagende Lied and the opening movement of the Second (as well as its original version, Totenfeier) is in Mahler's particular treatment of the Dies Irae motif.  I'd also point to the "sleeping" motif in the cantata as being similar to the second theme of that movement, as well as related to Wagner's Walkure.

Thanks! This is just what I was looking for.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on September 04, 2017, 08:45:49 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 20, 2017, 02:35:58 AM
I don't mean to be cliche but why is the adagietto from his 5th so overwhelming.

The theme is just like a heart killer. You have the three note scale leading into the somber major 7th to crack it off and it kills me, it's so powerful, fuck me  :'( :'( :'( :'(


I can't get Mahler out of my head lately (same with certain late century modernists I've been talking about elsewhere).

I find the climax towards the end of the Adagietto to be almost unbearable. I hear more than a mere 'love letter' in this music. It's as if someone has thrown in the towel and can't deal with their depression any longer. They no longer know what to do. Mahler is always in my head, too. Not that this is a bad thing --- far from it. He was an incredible composer who wore his heart on his sleeve. People can fault him all they want to, but he wrote what he knew he had to and what he had to express. If anything, you've got to admire his honesty.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2017, 09:24:23 AM
Do our Mahler enthusiasts recommend this?—

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on September 25, 2017, 09:46:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2017, 09:24:23 AM
Do our Mahler enthusiasts recommend this?—

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]

Levine is quite a good Mahler conductor overall. His 3rd was especially well thought of in all of the reviews I've read.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2017, 09:49:59 AM
Thanks!


For my part, when Jimmy conducted the BSO in the Ninth here in Symphony Hall, it was a luminous experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on September 25, 2017, 09:52:44 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2017, 09:49:59 AM
Thanks!


For my part, when Jimmy conducted the BSO in the Ninth here in Symphony Hall, it was a luminous experience.

Much welcome, my friend. I bet Levine was spectacular in concert. In all honesty, I've never heard a 'bad' performance from him.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on September 25, 2017, 12:43:06 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2017, 09:24:23 AM
Do our Mahler enthusiasts recommend this?—

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]
My enthusiasm for Mahler has waned (temporarily?) over the past couple of years, so I don't know if I qualify. Furthhmore, I do not (yet?) own that set.....but  ;):

1) My late dad, who was a lifelong Mahler enthusiast, had Levine's recordings in the highest esteem (I can still see--figurately--the LP sets in our library back home).

2) Not too long ago,  I caught the Das himmlische Leben movement from the Fourth Symphony on Spanish National Radio, and (not knowing who was playing) thought to myself "This is superb!". And, yes, when it finished, the announcer said it was Levine's CSO recording with Judith Raskin.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 25, 2017, 04:37:59 PM
I find it's a remarkable set. Everything oozes dedication from the players and persuasion from the conductor.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 25, 2017, 05:32:32 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61IqR9s-v6L._SX522_.jpg)

Listening to the last minutes of the 10th under Nézet-Séguin as I type.

I have 5 versions of the completed 10th symphony (Levine, Goldschmidt, Barshai, Inbal and this). Some are of the first Cooke completion, others from the second, and there is Barshai's own take on the work.I have never heard a version that made me think this was one of Mahler's best works. Both the first and the last movement are extraordinary. In between are some very good things, but I think the level of accomplishment is variable.

The most striking versions are this one (YNS) and the Goldschmidt. The difference in timing is about 13 minutes. I don't think it's a matter of version (text), but a totally different interpretive perspective. Goldschmidt is resolutely modern and provocative. YNS is romantic, yearning and nostalgic.

Any comments on the 10th and its various disc incarnations ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on September 25, 2017, 07:20:10 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2017, 09:24:23 AM
Do our Mahler enthusiasts recommend this?—

[asin]B0041LXX2G[/asin]

Yes...but I would suggest seeking out his recording of M9 with the Munich Philharmonic, on Oehms. It's one of the best out there, as your concert experience might suggest. OTOH, I have two live performances of M2 from him which I don't recommend (in part because of sonics, but only in part).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 26, 2017, 12:21:39 AM
Quote from: André on September 25, 2017, 05:32:32 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61IqR9s-v6L._SX522_.jpg) (http://a-fwd.to/17WRDNv)

Listening to the last minutes of the 10th under Nézet-Séguin as I type.

Any comments on the 10th and its various disc incarnations?

Some here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html) - but this doesn't include listenings to recent M10s yet -- such as the Nezet Seguin you mention, or the one on Wergo, or Seattle's with Schwartz.

The Wergo one is more interesting in theory than practice. My favorite is still the very colorful Barshai version & recording.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on September 26, 2017, 05:39:32 AM
Quote from: ritter on September 25, 2017, 12:43:06 PM
My enthusiasm for Mahler has waned (temporarily?) over the past couple of years, so I don't know if I qualify. Furthhmore, I do not (yet?) own that set.....but  ;):

1) My late dad, who was a lifelong Mahler enthusiast, had Levine's recordings in the highest esteem (I can still see--figurately--the LP sets in our library back home).

2) Not too long ago,  I caught the Das himmlische Leben movement from the Fourth Symphony on Spanish National Radio, and (not knowing who was playing) thought to myself "This is superb!". And, yes, when it finished, the announcer said it was Levine's CSO recording with Judith Raskin.

Quote from: André on September 25, 2017, 04:37:59 PM
I find it's a remarkable set. Everything oozes dedication from the players and persuasion from the conductor.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 25, 2017, 07:20:10 PM
Yes...but I would suggest seeking out his recording of M9 with the Munich Philharmonic, on Oehms. It's one of the best out there, as your concert experience might suggest. OTOH, I have two live performances of M2 from him which I don't recommend (in part because of sonics, but only in part).

Thanks, all!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on September 26, 2017, 07:18:39 AM
Quote from: André on September 25, 2017, 05:32:32 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61IqR9s-v6L._SX522_.jpg)

Listening to the last minutes of the 10th under Nézet-Séguin as I type.

I have 5 versions of the completed 10th symphony (Levine, Goldschmidt, Barshai, Inbal and this). Some are of the first Cooke completion, others from the second, and there is Barshai's own take on the work.I have never heard a version that made me think this was one of Mahler's best works. Both the first and the last movement are extraordinary. In between are some very good things, but I think the level of accomplishment is variable.

The most striking versions are this one (YNS) and the Goldschmidt. The difference in timing is about 13 minutes. I don't think it's a matter of version (text), but a totally different interpretive perspective. Goldschmidt is resolutely modern and provocative. YNS is romantic, yearning and nostalgic.

Any comments on the 10th and its various disc incarnations ?

The Tenth is, like all of Mahler's other symphonies, a unique structure, and so it needs to be taken individually.  It's best to think of it as consisting of two parts:

Part 1
I, II

Part 2
III, IV, V

Conversely, you could set it up like the Fifth and split it into three parts with the Purgatorio in the center by itself, but there's a good reason to put it with the last two movements.  The comparison with the Fifth is revealing because the Tenth is its opposite in several ways.  The Fifth has a center-heavy structure, where the scherzo forms the complex central pillar that defines the relationships to the outer parts, while the Seventh, like the Tenth, has a symmetrical structure focused on the outer movements.

Dramatically, the Purgatorio is the turning-point of the structure, forcing the symphony to break away from the F# center of the first two movements and introducing the thematic material that dominates the last three.  These things are all resolved in the finale when the massive dissonant chord from the first movement returns and melts into the theme of that movement, finishing off the work in the initial key of F# major.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 26, 2017, 08:20:41 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 26, 2017, 12:21:39 AM
Some here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html) - but this doesn't include listenings to recent M10s yet -- such as the Nezet Seguin you mention, or the one on Wergo, or Seattle's with Schwartz.

The Wergo one is more interesting in theory than practice. My favorite is still the very colorful Barshai version & recording.

Thanks for that, it's a very informative essay. Reinforces the work in progress impression, the idea that there is still a lot that will remain unclear about the work. Completions are just that: best intentions and best efforts toward a respectful and meaningful artistic solution. Reminds me of the still unfinished work on Gaudi's Sagrada Familia: how would it stand today if Gaudi had been around to see it finished ?

Time to relisten to Barshai and Slatkin (forgot I had that, too !).

.........................................................................................

Very interesting, Mahlerian. I'll keep those points in mind next time I listen to the 10th !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on September 26, 2017, 09:00:30 AM
Quote from: André on September 26, 2017, 08:20:41 AMVery interesting, Mahlerian. I'll keep those points in mind next time I listen to the 10th !

Glad I could help!  Remember that all of that stuff about form and content (as opposed to details of instrumentation) comes directly from Mahler, and it will apply to all completions of the work equally.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 27, 2017, 02:31:42 AM
Quote from: André on September 26, 2017, 08:20:41 AM
Thanks for that, it's a very informative essay. Reinforces the work in progress impression, the idea that there is still a lot that will remain unclear about the work. Completions are just that: best intentions and best efforts toward a respectful and meaningful artistic solution. Reminds me of the still unfinished work on Gaudi's Sagrada Familia: how would it stand today if Gaudi had been around to see it finished ?

Time to relisten to Barshai and Slatkin (forgot I had that, too !).




Thanks for the kind words. You're welcome. (There's a second part to it; easy to miss, because the links are so small. That lists most of the available recordings up to two years ago: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Senta on October 02, 2017, 01:00:07 PM
Some may have caught this livestream yesterday, but if you didn't it's up for another 24 hours -

Salonen/Philharmonia in a simply ravishing, searing 3rd featuring a luminous Michelle DeYoung.

Glorious playing and so much beautiful detail. Quite emotional too (couldn't help but tear up in the last movement!)

I've always loved what he does with M3!

https://www.youtube.com/v/8rg0VYnTHog

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on October 09, 2017, 05:33:54 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 25, 2017, 07:20:10 PM
Yes...but I would suggest seeking out his recording of M9 with the Munich Philharmonic, on Oehms. It's one of the best out there, as your concert experience might suggest. OTOH, I have two live performances of M2 from him which I don't recommend (in part because of sonics, but only in part).

Many thanks, again, Jeffrey.  I have as yet listened only to the closing Adagio (seems to be my current "hang-up"), and it is indeed exquisite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 09, 2017, 08:11:38 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 09, 2017, 05:33:54 AM
Many thanks, again, Jeffrey.  I have as yet listened only to the closing Adagio (seems to be my current "hang-up"), and it is indeed exquisite.

Great to hear you're enjoying Mahler's music, Karl! 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 07:04:18 AM
What is your favorite recording of Mahler's No. 2?  Basically if you were going to introduce someone to this work which recording would you demonstrate the work with?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 09, 2017, 07:30:21 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 07:04:18 AM
What is your favorite recording of Mahler's No. 2?  Basically if you were going to introduce someone to this work which recording would you demonstrate the work with?

1. Pierre Boulez, WPh, DG (http://a-fwd.to/4dZD8w3)

2. Zubin Mehta, WPh, Decca (http://a-fwd.to/9Oy3qeZ)

3. Michael Gielen SWRSO, Hänssler (http://a-fwd.to/1rqFO6p)

4. Seiji Ozawa, Saito Kinen FO, Sony (http://a-fwd.to/6JlIqPb)

5. Iván Fischer, Budapest FO, Channel Classics (http://a-fwd.to/1gsDhaM)

See also the  below, where the reasoning for the above choices is given. Granted, it does not take into consideration some of the most recent M2s on the market, like Gergiev II, Stenz, Nott... (the latter two are v.good, generally speaking).

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZJwnQEl-bLQ/VYM8gRWs6BI/AAAAAAAAIR4/etGFq8FKPBk/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_2.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-1.html)

+


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Mys3pW-RFzo/VYWMuyc8lKI/AAAAAAAAITE/Vp8VQkhvrd8/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_2_2.png)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no2-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kyjo on November 09, 2017, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 07:04:18 AM
What is your favorite recording of Mahler's No. 2?  Basically if you were going to introduce someone to this work which recording would you demonstrate the work with?

I very much like VPO/Mehta on Decca.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on November 09, 2017, 01:30:55 PM
I don't own a Mahler 2. There was a blind listening a few years ago that never got completed, and so I have a 1st movement that I know I really enjoyed but no idea who the conductor and orchestra were.

Which is going to make picking a version to buy harder. It's going to have to match, to a fair degree, the qualities of that blind listening candidate even if it isn't the same performance. Hopefully I'll track it down in other people's top choices.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on November 09, 2017, 01:34:56 PM
A couple of years ago, somebody started a blind comparison of the 2nd with "Urlicht" then left the forum before identifying most of the contenders. (He did identify the one that I and the group liked least, Bernstein on DG.) I eventually determined my favorite from that slate to be the critically-disdained Jansons in Oslo on Chandos, and bought that. But at both ends my judgement was primarily about the style of the alto, not necessarily representative of the overall performance.

I currently own 7 versions and have heard a few more, but TBH I'd have trouble, without resorting to head-to-head comparisons, putting any of them in front of the others. (That's somewhat unusual for me.)

In case anyone cares, my inventory is:
Mehta on Decca (my first)
Klemperer studio on EMI
Bernstein on Sony
Bernstein video
Walter on Sony
Kaplan with LSO
Jansons on Chandos

EDIT: I wrote this before ørfeo posted his comment. But I was in a different listening group.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on November 09, 2017, 01:38:02 PM
I can heartily second the Boulez and Gielen from Jens' list. I also have Klemperer's recording, which I haven't heard in a long time, but also recall liking. The Boulez and Gielen have better sound quality, the Boulez fits on a single disc, but the Gielen has marvelous fillers in Kurtág's Stele and Schoenberg's Kol Nidre..
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2017, 01:48:42 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 09, 2017, 07:30:21 AM
1. Pierre Boulez, WPh, DG (http://a-fwd.to/4dZD8w3)

I like the Boulez too. A good choice for an introduction to this marvelous symphony. Consider also Kaplan/Vienna.

My other favorites are too individual (i.e., mannered) to recommend so I won't bother listing them.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Parsifal on November 09, 2017, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2017, 01:48:42 PM
I like the Boulez too. A good choice for an introduction to this marvelous symphony. Consider also Kaplan/Vienna.

My other favorites are too individual (i.e., mannered) to recommend so I won't bother listing them.

Sarge

Boulez, Meh. Nobody mentioned my favorite:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41-6bH08ffL.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2017, 01:50:39 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 09, 2017, 01:49:29 PM
Boulez, Meh. Nobody mentioned my favorite:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41-6bH08ffL.jpg)

That's mine too, but like I said, I wouldn't recommend it for a first experience.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Parsifal on November 09, 2017, 01:51:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2017, 01:50:39 PM
That's mine too, but like I said, I wouldn't recommend it for a first experience.

Sarge

It was my first experience, didn't do me any harm.  :)

(I got mine before they invented the double jewel case, so it came in two separate jewel cases.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2017, 01:57:46 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 09, 2017, 01:51:59 PM
It was my first experience, didn't do me any harm.  :)

That's debatable  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Parsifal on November 09, 2017, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2017, 01:57:46 PM
That's debatable  ;D

Sarge

;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 04:34:44 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2017, 01:50:39 PM
That's mine too, but like I said, I wouldn't recommend it for a first experience.

Sarge

Explain sarge.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
One thing I find extremely interesting, the consensus seems to be a Mahler 2 virgin should get a different version than a Mahlerian.  I am very curious for more details about this.  I consider myself an expert (I have performed it and own 11 recordings and it was the first professional concert I ever attended) but find no single recording to fulfill my imagination of the work.  Though I have heard it a bazillian times, I must confess still tearing up at hearing it this morning.  Though the performances I heard left me lacking. What a fantastic work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on November 09, 2017, 05:18:02 PM
Of forty plus recordings I have there are three I dislike: Norrington, Abbado/VPO, and Abbado/Lucerne. My top favorites are Bernstein/DG, MTT/SFO, and Abbado/CSO. For a newbie, I would suggest Mehta/VPO, Kaplan/VPO or even better, a DVD--Chailly/Gewandhaus.

But other than those three I specified above, there is not an M2 I would not gladly listen to, and that does not give me an emotional uprush when the chorus kicks in.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brunumb on November 09, 2017, 05:45:00 PM
This is the recording that started my Mahler addiction:

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61JtWQd02UL._AC_US436_QL65_.jpg)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on November 09, 2017, 06:09:28 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
One thing I find extremely interesting, the consensus seems to be a Mahler 2 virgin should get a different version than a Mahlerian.

I think the idea is to avoid causing someone to imprint on an idiosyncratic or controversial version. For example, my first version of Beethoven 4 was Leinsdorf, which is mostly fine, but he changes the rhythm at the first Allegro vivace, and it took me a long time to accept the correct rhythm. I haven't heard Maazel's Mahler 2 but I suspect he takes some part of it unusually slowly, or made some other love-it-or-hate-it interpretive decision.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 09, 2017, 07:04:32 PM
True. Listening to the 6th symphony in Barbirolli's version would have that same effect on a newcomer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Parsifal on November 09, 2017, 08:16:44 PM
Quote from: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
One thing I find extremely interesting, the consensus seems to be a Mahler 2 virgin should get a different version than a Mahlerian.  I am very curious for more details about this.  I consider myself an expert (I have performed it and own 11 recordings and it was the first professional concert I ever attended) but find no single recording to fulfill my imagination of the work.  Though I have heard it a bazillian times, I must confess still tearing up at hearing it this morning.  Though the performances I heard left me lacking. What a fantastic work.

I'm not so sure I agree, but the rational may be that a newbie would benefit from a mainstream performance but someone that already has several recordings of the work would gain more by getting an oddball recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 10, 2017, 01:05:16 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
One thing I find extremely interesting, the consensus seems to be a Mahler 2 virgin should get a different version than a Mahlerian.  I am very curious for more details about this.  I consider myself an expert (I have performed it and own 11 recordings and it was the first professional concert I ever attended) but find no single recording to fulfill my imagination of the work.  Though I have heard it a bazillian times, I must confess still tearing up at hearing it this morning.  Though the performances I heard left me lacking. What a fantastic work.

Maybe there's something to it: That someone who knows the work well can appreciate deviation from it better... or at least knows not to be mislead by it.
Sometimes I think an interpretation is very suitable for a beginner, because it allows a particular insight that helps. If you had asked about M3 and I had answered with Boulez again, that would have been such a case... because in the Third Boulez lives up to the stereotype and delivers a see-through account; accurate and transparent like few others. But usually Boulez's Mahler is quite passionate and searing, actually. (Only his 8th is a dead-on-arrival-dud.) Point being that, in this case, I should like to point out that my recommendations were straight up; I think these are among the very best recordings of the work for veteran and newbie alike.


Meanwhile I agree w/Jeffrey's dislike for Abbado/Vienna, though not Abbado/Lucerne; Maazel is one of the few cycles I don't have; I dislike the Solti (most of Solti's Mahler, actually, except his Sixth, which Sarge thankfully converted me to!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on November 10, 2017, 02:02:37 AM
Quote from: Pat B on November 09, 2017, 06:09:28 PM
I think the idea is to avoid causing someone to imprint on an idiosyncratic or controversial version.
Sure, but this seems in no way special about Mahler or a particular symphony of his.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bwv 1080 on November 10, 2017, 07:18:53 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 09, 2017, 07:04:18 AM
What is your favorite recording of Mahler's No. 2?  Basically if you were going to introduce someone to this work which recording would you demonstrate the work with?

Kubelik
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pat B on November 10, 2017, 07:47:03 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2017, 02:02:37 AM
Sure, but this seems in no way special about Mahler or a particular symphony of his.

It isn't.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on November 10, 2017, 08:34:18 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on November 09, 2017, 01:30:55 PM
... There was a blind listening a few years ago that never got completed, and so I have a 1st movement that I know I really enjoyed but no idea who the conductor and orchestra were.

Me too!  It was P3 in my case.  I still listen to it and prefer it to any other I've heard so far, with the exception of Bernstein/DG (which is similar, but even more over-wrought).  I never listen past the 1st movement anyway, it stands alone very well IMHO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on November 12, 2017, 03:23:51 AM
Quote from: bwv 1080 on November 10, 2017, 07:18:53 AM
Kubelik

Amen!  0:)

I came across this rarity on YouTube: Arnold Schoenberg conducts the second movement of Mahler's Second for a radio broadcast in 1934 from New York:

Dreadful quality, but if you can blank out the noise there would seem to be a Viennese Schlagobers sound to some of the playing  ???  8)  :

https://www.youtube.com/v/F9KGqRoKGiY&feature=player_embedded

Dig the picture of Arnold Baby with half of a smirking smile! 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 27, 2017, 11:39:54 AM
This is a very long thread, so forgive me if someone has already posted this link:


http://www.orchestralibrary.com/reftables/mahler2gloss.html#N (http://www.orchestralibrary.com/reftables/mahler2gloss.html#N)

It's a glossary of the german musical terms (and their english translation) used by Mahler in his works. I find it very useful.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on December 02, 2017, 05:20:45 AM
Anyone for a resurrection rumba ?  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axr_9-mOON4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axr_9-mOON4&feature=youtu.be)

(found on the gustavmahlerboard.com)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: motoboy on December 02, 2017, 10:21:15 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 12, 2017, 03:23:51 AM
Amen!  0:)

I came across this rarity on YouTube: Arnold Schoenberg conducts the second movement of Mahler's Second for a radio broadcast in 1934 from New York:

Dreadful quality, but if you can blank out the noise there would seem to be a Viennese Schlagobers sound to some of the playing  ???  8)  :

https://www.youtube.com/v/F9KGqRoKGiY&feature=player_embedded

Dig the picture of Arnold Baby with half of a smirking smile! 0:)

I love the phrasing and the way he lets the music breathe. It reminds me of Mehta a little. Maybe a little indulgent, but I would really love to hear a high quality recording of this.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kyjo on December 02, 2017, 02:59:44 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on December 02, 2017, 05:20:45 AM
Anyone for a resurrection rumba ?  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axr_9-mOON4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axr_9-mOON4&feature=youtu.be)

(found on the gustavmahlerboard.com)

Great stuff! 8) I also love the same artist's rumba version of the second movement of Beethoven 7: https://youtu.be/mZRb0FyAa9s (https://youtu.be/mZRb0FyAa9s)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on December 02, 2017, 11:35:54 PM
I actually find that the Beethoven 7th works better than the Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 15, 2017, 12:40:09 AM

Classical CD Of The Week: Mahler Most Charming, Made In East Germany
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/11/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_MAHLER_Suitner_Lorenz_Symphony5_BERLIN-CLASSICS_Laurson_960.jpg?width=960)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/13/classical-cd-of-the-week-mahler-most-charming-made-in-east-germany/#498a7b1b2253 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/13/classical-cd-of-the-week-mahler-most-charming-made-in-east-germany/#498a7b1b2253)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on December 15, 2017, 10:18:52 AM
Mahlermaniacs, is my new pic really one of Gustav? I found it yesterday while looking for one that no one else is using, but I can only find pages in Spanish and Italian that refer to it. From what I'm able to translate, it should be Mahler, but the guy in the pic looks a little more like Mahler as played by Patrick Dempsey, Adrien Brody, or perhaps Timothee Chalamet.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on December 15, 2017, 10:24:01 AM
I think it's from the Ken Russell film (which I haven't seen, but have certainly heard about).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on December 15, 2017, 10:31:17 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on December 15, 2017, 10:24:01 AM
I think it's from the Ken Russell film (which I haven't seen, but have certainly heard about).

Right: that is definitely from the movie!

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0729/0023/products/Mahler_Display_Front.jpg?v=1509242166)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on December 15, 2017, 10:31:46 AM
So that is how Harry Potter ages!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jay F on December 16, 2017, 10:52:26 PM
Thank you all very much. I guess I'll keep looking.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DaveF on December 23, 2017, 06:45:21 AM
While looking at percussion parts of no.5 for a workshop performance early next year, I made the surprising (to me) discovery that in the revised version there is an exposition repeat marked in the second movement, ending where the first subject kicks back in (5 after fig.9 in the Peters score, exactly 4 minutes into the Barbirolli recording).  Does anyone ever play this, or are there any recordings that do?  It would make the movement almost 1/3 long again and radically alter the proportions of things.  As it's in the revised edition (at least according to IMSLP), I suppose it represents GM's final thoughts.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on December 23, 2017, 06:49:07 AM
Quote from: DaveF on December 23, 2017, 06:45:21 AM
While looking at percussion parts of no.5 for a workshop performance early next year, I made the surprising (to me) discovery that in the revised version there is an exposition repeat marked in the second movement, ending where the first subject kicks back in (5 after fig.9 in the Peters score, exactly 4 minutes into the Barbirolli recording).  Does anyone ever play this, or are there any recordings that do?  It would make the movement almost 1/3 long again and radically alter the proportions of things.  As it's in the revised edition (at least according to IMSLP), I suppose it represents GM's final thoughts.

As I recall, it's the other way around.  He wrote an exposition repeat in, and then removed it in the process of revisions.  I'm pretty sure the critical edition score doesn't have it, so it's never played that way (though I seem to vaguely recall hearing one recording that did, but couldn't tell you which).  Good thing too, as that repeat would stop the momentum of the movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on December 23, 2017, 07:20:27 AM
It became Mahler's practice to have a score printed as soon as he had finished a work to his initial satisfaction. He did this with the 5th and the Peters edition (Leipzig 1904) was the first printed edition of the symphony. Shortly afterwards Mahler had two private run-throughs with the Vienna Philharmonic and began to make changes which he then sent to his publisher. The exposition repeat was one of the first things to go and never made it into any subsequent editions of the score or (probably) any public performance. Mahler continued to tinker with the orchestration to the end of his life and never heard his final version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DaveF on December 23, 2017, 12:53:43 PM
Interesting!  Thanks, both.  I've looked at all the numerous available recordings on Spotify, and all second movements come in between 14-15 minutes, so none of them includes it.  And I had never previously thought of those first 4 minutes as a sonata-allegro 2-subject exposition.  The rest of the moment could hardly be called sonata-form!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on December 23, 2017, 05:36:56 PM
Quote from: DaveF on December 23, 2017, 12:53:43 PM
Interesting!  Thanks, both.  I've looked at all the numerous available recordings on Spotify, and all second movements come in between 14-15 minutes, so none of them includes it.  And I had never previously thought of those first 4 minutes as a sonata-allegro 2-subject exposition.  The rest of the moment could hardly be called sonata-form!

Mahler certainly thought of the second movement as the "sonata-allegro" of the piece, and the first movement as a kind of introduction.  You can analyze the movement as a sonata-allegro with two themes, development, and recapitulation, but there are a number of strange things about this:

- The key relationships of the themes are non-standard (a minor - f minor)
- The development deals in large part with themes/motivic relationships that are separate, either those introduced in the first movement or yet to come in the third
- The recapitulation moves the second theme into a key other than the tonic, and in fact moves to one of the furthest keys from the tonic (e-flat minor)
- A premonition of the finale of the work prevents the ending of the movement from feeling final in any way
- Only in the coda is A minor finally restored permanently

In summary, it "is" a sonata-allegro form, but probably only in the barest sense possible.  It only really makes sense in the context of the complete symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on December 24, 2017, 01:02:26 AM
Just to add to Mahlerian's excellent post, Mahler described the second movement as the 'Hauptsatz' - 'head' or main movement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on December 24, 2017, 03:16:22 AM
Quote from: Biffo on December 24, 2017, 01:02:26 AM
Just to add to Mahlerian's excellent post, Mahler described the second movement as the 'Hauptsatz' - 'head' or main movement.

Thank you.  Yes, and he also told the publishers that the symphony should not be given a key designation because the "Hauptsatz" came second, was in a different key from the introductory movement, and also in a different tonality entirely from the key of the finale.  It's really quite meaningless to say that the work is "in" C# minor for those reasons.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 29, 2017, 01:26:03 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
What's everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)

Chailly/Conc'bouw (released around 1998) is the one that scores highest with me, great playing all the way thru, and a coherent, steady approach from the conductor. Great sound too.

I like the old Kubelik/BRSO, but I have it on a rather muddy-sounding LP. Still a good interpretation throughout. Levine/Philly (if you're not boycotting him) is another good one. I liked Sinopoli for its attention to detail, but haven't heard it in a long time.

This is a difficult symphony to get right. There are a number of classic interpretations (Barbirolli, Bernstein, Solti) that I've never clicked with, usually because of issues related to tempo or articulation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DaveF on December 29, 2017, 01:39:51 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
What's everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)

Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonie (coupled in the box I have with an equally good 10th).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 29, 2017, 02:02:28 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
What's everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)

I own 35 M5s. My favorites:

CHAILLY CONCERTGEBOUW
NEUMANN   GEWANDHAUS LEIPZIG
DOHNÁNYI CLEVELAND
BOULEZ VIENNA PHIL
KUBELIK SOBR (studio recording)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on December 29, 2017, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)

Every movement of the work draws upon the same motivic elements, and it's only Mahler's virtuosic treatment of those motifs that makes the materials seem disparate on the first hearing (or first few).  I'd go so far as to say (contrary to what a lot of people seem to say on the internet) that the Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth are Mahler's most coherent works, in the sense that they are created with only a very few motifs which undergo constant transformation.  Then again, I think all of Mahler's symphonies are masterpieces, and all wonderfully different from each other.

I've always liked Klaus Tennstedt's performances, and his live Fifth is excellent, if on the slow side.  Boulez's recording with Vienna, Abbado's with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra, and the late live version by Solti round out my list of favorites.

I don't really care for either of Bernstein's, or Gergiev's (or any other Mahler he does), nor von Karajan's (he didn't like Mahler's music, and it shows in everything he recorded of it), but the real badge of shame goes to Ozawa here, for the worst version of Mahler's Fifth I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 29, 2017, 04:27:53 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)

Bernstein's 5th on Deutsche Grammophon has been a long-standing favorite. I also admire Abbado's Chicago 5th (also on DG). I can't say I've heard any other performance that brings this symphony together into a satisfying whole as these two I just mentioned.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on December 29, 2017, 05:01:02 PM
Levine with the Philadelphia.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bwv 1080 on December 29, 2017, 05:06:07 PM
Quote from: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)

(https://www.popsike.com/pix/20110528/170647559085.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 07:14:12 PM
Thanks for the diverse feedback everyone! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 29, 2017, 07:25:49 PM
Mahler 5th: Neumann, Leipzig Gewandhaus (Berlin Classics) ; Haitink, Concertgebouw (Philips studio); Barshaï, Junge Deutsche Philharmonie (Brilliant).

2 of these recordings are extremely cheap to boot!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 30, 2017, 01:36:27 AM
Quote from: kyjo on December 29, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)

From the Mahler Survey on ionarts:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NZ58v0FUAcM/UgOAz1uSDeI/AAAAAAAAG9g/YJhEimuI2J8/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_5.png)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.5 (Part 1) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no5-part-1.html)

&

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zQuX36FiGmY/UgLpngKHnoI/AAAAAAAAG8o/-kS16k69Vyw/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_5_2.png)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.5 (Part 2) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no5-part-2.html)

My recommendations still stand, more or less... except that Chailly, although it is one of the most gloriously recorded recordings of any Mahler symphony, might have dipped a little... notably beneath Boulez, whom I've only come to appreciate more. Still, for what I think you are looking for -- coherence and cohesion -- I'd go with Neumann. Despite the age of the recording. And the Suitner is cut of similar cloth... ("VEB Mahler Most Charming (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/13/classical-cd-of-the-week-mahler-most-charming-made-in-east-germany/#29ca1ac52253)", Forbes). And what you least want would be Bernstein on DG, then...

1. Vaclav Neumann, Leipzig Gewandhaus, Berlin Classics / Brilliant (http://a-fwd.to/5zCWVEw)

2. Riccardo Chailly, RCO, Decca (http://a-fwd.to/4w5y9eG)

3. Rudolf Barshai, Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, Brilliant (http://a-fwd.to/48u4W2K)

4. Pierre Boulez, WPh, DG (http://a-fwd.to/3rJDahH)

5. Markus Stenz, Gürzenich, Oehms (SACD) (http://a-fwd.to/6ebAHpO)

P.S. Kubelik, as mentioned by Sarge and the Archaic Torso of Apollo, might be up your alley, too:

From said survey:
QuoteWhy is Kubelik's Fifth on DG not in print in North America? He makes such a strong, dramatic case from the first to the last note, it's beguiling. Kubelik keeps this symphony on his toes—as usual—and he makes a crisp, no-nonsense case for it. It's not rushed, it is dynamic; it does not confuse slowness with gravitas nor speed alone with excitement. The four-note attack of the opening trumpets growing subtly more aggressive on each attempt is just the first of many lovable details (one where Bernstein/New York falls flat, while Zinman/Tonhalle come close)—and the usual lack of bass response on his DG recordings is scarcely noticeable. Alas, it is only available in the Kubelik box of the complete symphonies and the Audite version with the same performers, although similar, is slightly more relaxed, slacker, and effectively less gripping. It is a live recording, of course, and while offering the usual increase in depth and bass over the DG sound, I thought this 1981 recording to be less clear, even a bit muddier, than some of the earlier recordings on Audite.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 30, 2017, 04:59:53 AM
Thanks Jens, this is wonderful (I read the whole article). Not least since you concur with 2 of my 3 top choices  ;D.

Based on your recommendation I'll probably give a try to Boulez, whom I normally find dry, academic, ultimately unexciting in practically everything, from Stravinsky to Debussy, or Bruckner and Mahler (I have nos 3, 6, 8, 9)..

On the wilful, idiosyncratic, unrecommendable side, I must confess my unflinching affection for Scherchen (Vienna State Orchestra) and Farberman (London Symphony), warts and all. But truthfully, they cannot really hold a candle to the certified top dogs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on December 30, 2017, 05:35:52 AM
Quote from: André on December 30, 2017, 04:59:53 AMBased on your recommendation I'll probably give a try to Boulez, whom I normally find dry, academic, ultimately unexciting in practically everything, from Stravinsky to Debussy, or Bruckner and Mahler (I have nos 3, 6, 8, 9)..

I've never understood this point of view.  I find Boulez's conducting, whether in Stravinsky, Debussy, Bruckner, or Mahler, alive, rhythmically supple, and finely shaped.  He does tend to underplay intermediate climaxes compared to many conductors, but that's all in service of the longer arc of a piece.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 30, 2017, 05:38:43 AM
Quote from: André on December 30, 2017, 04:59:53 AM
Thanks Jens, this is wonderful (I read the whole article). Not least since you concur with 2 of my 3 top choices  ;D.

Based on your recommendation I'll probably give a try to Boulez, whom I normally find dry, academic, ultimately unexciting in practically everything, from Stravinsky to Debussy, or Bruckner and Mahler (I have nos 3, 6, 8, 9)..

On the wilful, idiosyncratic, unrecommendable side, I must confess my unflinching affection for Scherchen (Vienna State Orchestra) and Farberman (London Symphony), warts and all. But truthfully, they cannot really hold a candle to the certified top dogs.

Thanks for the kind words. Always balm to the soul and fingertips.

Just to white-balance our tastes along Boulezian lines:

I find his 8th a total, flat failure... a non-starter.
I think that his 3rd is about his only Mahler that comes close to the stereotypical Boulez: Analytical, transparent, laser-like, see-through. For various reasons, I think that CAN help in the appreciation of the symphony, but isn't the real McCoy (See also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no3-part-1.html)). His Ninth I find quite good, but suffering from lack of mysticism in the Finale. (see: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html)). I am quite convinced of his Sixth, though, with one of the best final movements on record; really working out the Wagner-aspects. The First is a surprise impassioned winner like 5. The whole cycle, given the sole dudd in the 8th (which it shares with several cycles as a point of weakness), is probably one of the most recommendable in my book... up there with Gielen.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 30, 2017, 06:57:34 AM
Just finished listening to the Kubelik 5th (DGG, not Audite), part of the box set of all the symphonies. I think I'll elevate this to the top echelon of 'real' Mahler conducting: alive to every facet of the score, never underlining nor skimming over the work's childlike, tragic, dreamy or coruscating aspects: it's all there. A real kaleidoscope of brilliant touches, each given its due without being forced through the prism of the conductor's agenda. And the tempo giusto from first note to last.

The biggest surprise though is the recorded sound, whuch is astonishingly lifelike: luminous, with perfect concert hall depth and vertical expansion. It does lack a true bass, but that has always been a characteristic of the Herkulessaal, at least in those days. It's more like the hall boasts a fabulous middle register that freely expands downward, a bit like those soprano voices that never show breaks when using their lower register (I'm thinking of Gundula Janowitz, Schwarzkopf or Régine Crespin here). Either through hall modifications or equipment improvement, more recent recordings do boast a 'real' bass in that hall (Nézet-Séguin's Mahler 1), but I can't say the older recording's characteristics bother me.

As for Boulez, I stand by everything I said. It puts me in the enviable position of eventually reassessing my judgment and be delighted in the process  ;). I recall my early infatuation with every note sung by Maria Callas. From up there the real risk was that it could only go downward, and so it proved  :-[, if even by a notch or two.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 01, 2018, 02:17:48 AM
Seeing that his second recording of the Mahler Sixth is one of my favorites (Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.6 (Part 1) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html)), Benjamin Zander's new recording with the Boston Philharmonic (http://href="http://a-fwd.to/4Ymto7o) [sic] would seem to be of some interest. Anyone here heard it yet? Made it onto two Best-of-Year lists (Chicago, Boston; see "Meta-Best-of" List (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/29/a-meta-list-the-best-of-best-of-the-year-in-classical-music/2/#69f43d4a3793)) and might be more than local(ish) cheerleading.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 01, 2018, 02:59:02 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 01, 2018, 02:17:48 AM
Seeing that his second recording of the Mahler Sixth is one of my favorites (Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.6 (Part 1) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html)), Benjamin Zander's new recording with the Boston Philharmonic (http://href="http://a-fwd.to/4Ymto7o) [sic] would seem to be of some interest. Anyone here heard it yet? Made it onto two Best-of-Year lists (Chicago, Boston; see "Meta-Best-of" List (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/12/29/a-meta-list-the-best-of-best-of-the-year-in-classical-music/2/#69f43d4a3793)) and might be more than local(ish) cheerleading.

I have Zander's recordings of Symphonies Nos 1, 3, 4 & 6, all with the Philharmonia Orchestra. I wouldn't say any of them was a first choice but I enjoyed them all. The discussion discs that accompany them are very interesting, as is the opportunity to hear the original version of the Finale of No 6. I will have to give his new No 5 a try even though I keep vowing not to buy any more Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 01, 2018, 11:28:38 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 29, 2017, 01:26:03 PM
I like the old Kubelik/BRSO, but I have it on a rather muddy-sounding LP. Still a good interpretation throughout.

I have to retract this statement. I ran this Kubelik thru the Spin-Clean and now it sounds great. Not "muddy-sounding" at all, for you vinylists who might be paying attention.

Also, adding my approval for the Barshai recording with his German youth orchestra, already mentioned by some of you.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 02, 2018, 06:46:14 AM
Well, it's only taken me somewhere near seven years since WETA took down their blog for me to completely* restore my Mahler Survey in full... but now it's done, with the three short essays on No.4

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.4 (Part 1)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WijgJMnoP4E/WktXsGlkUgI/AAAAAAAAJ9o/LvgUjelWUo8rq8b_a4jnaSpNgfUPh6wXgCLcBGAs/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_4.png)

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/01/gustav-mahler-symphony-no4-part-1.html)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.4 (Part 2)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Gq4SYsctSfM/WktcQb4KKtI/AAAAAAAAJ-A/mRh1RJcuf7AGmr0wYlQFBTUxHmMayV5dQCLcBGAs/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_4_2.png)

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/01/gustav-mahler-symphony-no4-part-2.html)

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.4 (Part 3)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JVk6zaFNh9Y/Wkuf1KqpOdI/AAAAAAAAJ-4/bdVEsvlUoNYsvpPvlAErVcGE5cBJtJDAwCLcBGAs/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_4_3.png)

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/01/gustav-mahler-symphony-no4-part-3.html)

(* second part of the introduction is still missing...)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 02, 2018, 12:32:03 PM
That's less than a year per symphony, which isn't bad in my book given the scope of the undertaking.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 02, 2018, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on January 02, 2018, 12:32:03 PM
That's less than a year per symphony, which isn't bad in my book given the scope of the undertaking.

True, but the sorry fact is, that all the text (except for a few updates) had already been written -- so it was 'merely' an act of restoring all the links and the graphics and cleaning a messy file of raw, unreliable html code up... Still, I'm glad it's all up now. :-) Cheers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 02, 2018, 01:34:18 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 02, 2018, 12:36:41 PM
True, but the sorry fact is, that all the text (except for a few updates) had already been written -- so it was 'merely' an act of restoring all the links and the graphics and cleaning a messy file of raw, unreliable html code up... Still, I'm glad it's all up now. :-) Cheers.

Yes, but I reckon THAT is the tricky bit.

Just yesterday I looked, not for the first time, at whether I can turn my Holmboe pages on Blogger into a proper website. With a proper database of works and recordings. I've got almost no idea how to do it, which is why I resorted to Blogger in the first place.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Turner on January 04, 2018, 02:39:17 AM
The upcoming Membran Scherchen Mahler 10CD release - some details now at

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Sym-1-2-3-6-7-8-9-10-Adagio-Kindertotenlieder-Scherchen-Rpo-Vienna-State-Opera-O-Lipzig-Rso_8466235
(actually the detailed description in Japanese mentions the 5th Symphony as there, in the VStOpO 1953 recording)

Provided details:

1 / RPO 1954
2 / WStOpO 1958
Kindertoten / WStOpO, West 1958
3 / Leipzig, the Tahra issue 1960
5 / WStOpO 1953
6 / Leipzig, the Tahra issue 1960
7 / WSO live 1960 (the westminster/MCA release with WStOpO is from 1953)
10 /live 1960 (Leipzig, tahra?)
8 / WSO live 1951, Nasys, Ilitz, Ogle, Wieler ...
9 / WSO live 1951 (the Orfeo release with these forces says 1950)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 13, 2018, 02:20:14 PM
A performance of the First Symphony from the Cincinnati Symphony last Friday, James Conlon conducting,  is available to be heard online.

http://inconcert.cincinnatisymphony.org/ (http://inconcert.cincinnatisymphony.org/)

The website at one spot gives Mahler's dates as 1685-1750    ???    which many will recognize as Bach's dates.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2018, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 13, 2018, 02:20:14 PM
The website at one spot gives Mahler's dates as 1685-1750    ???    which many will recognize as Bach's dates.

Copy - Paste - Modify . . . well, two out of three ain't bad, right? . . .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 14, 2018, 03:59:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 14, 2018, 02:45:55 AM
Copy - Paste - Modify . . . well, two out of three ain't bad, right? . . .

As Jack Nicholson reminds us in Mars Attacks!

https://www.youtube.com/v/VakU20APPdw

Today, my 8th Graders will in Latin II will hear the opening movement of Mahler's 8th Symphony "Veni, Creator Spiritus."  They received the Sacrament of Confirmation a week ago, so this seems appropriate!

Pierre Boulez on DGG with the Staatskapelle Berlin Orchestra.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 14, 2018, 06:04:21 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 14, 2018, 03:59:36 AM

Today, my 8th Graders will in Latin II will hear the opening movement of Mahler's 8th Symphony "Veni, Creator Spiritus."  They received the Sacrament of Confirmation a week ago, so this seems appropriate!

Pierre Boulez on DGG with the Staatskapelle Berlin Orchestra.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! [throws himself between students and stereo system in bullet-catching fashion] Not Boulez!!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on March 14, 2018, 10:28:14 AM
Admittedly, Boulez' earlier performance (1971, with BBC forces) is more involved. Generally speaking I find the same qualities in his Debussy and his Mahler: objective to a fault, with little in the way of colouring or emotional involvement. If it's in the score, Pierre will find it. But he won't make any suggestions for a more eventful journey. His conducting reminds me a bit of the synthetic voice on my GPS: « In 300 feet, take the next exit and keep left until the next set of lights ».

For some reason I think he excels in Ravel. Because Maurice is a wizard with orchestral colours and textures, a conductor with an analytic set of ears will reveal the score's felicities especially well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 14, 2018, 10:54:14 AM
Quote from: André on March 14, 2018, 10:28:14 AM
Admittedly, Boulez' earlier performance (1971, with BBC forces) is more involved. Generally speaking I find the same qualities in his Debussy and his Mahler: objective to a fault, with little in the way of colouring or emotional involvement. If it's in the score, Pierre will find it. But he won't make any suggestions for a more eventful journey. His conducting reminds me a bit of the synthetic voice on my GPS: « In 300 feet, take the next exit and keep left until the next set of lights ».

For some reason I think he excels in Ravel. Because Maurice is a wizard with orchestral colours and textures, a conductor with an analytic set of ears will reveal the score's felicities especially well.

Well, I think a lot of the Boulez-stereotypes don't actually fit in Mahler, which is passionate, involving, even warm (1, 2, 5), riveting (6, 7), reasonably long-lined (4, 9)... or where it applies (cool, see-through), it works well (3). But the Eighth is an uninvolved chore, ungladly performed, run down without involvement or insight. It's arguably worse than Solti, because even if Solti (or Rattle) also get it really wrong, the former has great sound and some sort of sportive passion on his side.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on March 14, 2018, 02:22:49 PM
Quote from: André on March 14, 2018, 10:28:14 AM
Admittedly, Boulez' earlier performance (1971, with BBC forces) is more involved. Generally speaking I find the same qualities in his Debussy and his Mahler: objective to a fault, with little in the way of colouring or emotional involvement. If it's in the score, Pierre will find it. But he won't make any suggestions for a more eventful journey. His conducting reminds me a bit of the synthetic voice on my GPS: « In 300 feet, take the next exit and keep left until the next set of lights ».

For some reason I think he excels in Ravel. Because Maurice is a wizard with orchestral colours and textures, a conductor with an analytic set of ears will reveal the score's felicities especially well.

It was Ravel who declared performers are slaves. No doubt he would not have at all appreciated anyone making "suggestions for a more eventful journey".

There's an interesting more general discussion there about music versus, say, performances of plays, or reading audio books.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 14, 2018, 02:30:12 PM
Quote from: André on March 14, 2018, 10:28:14 AM
Admittedly, Boulez' earlier performance (1971, with BBC forces) is more involved. Generally speaking I find the same qualities in his Debussy and his Mahler: objective to a fault, with little in the way of colouring or emotional involvement. If it's in the score, Pierre will find it. But he won't make any suggestions for a more eventful journey. His conducting reminds me a bit of the synthetic voice on my GPS: « In 300 feet, take the next exit and keep left until the next set of lights ».

For some reason I think he excels in Ravel. Because Maurice is a wizard with orchestral colours and textures, a conductor with an analytic set of ears will reveal the score's felicities especially well.

I have found myself unsatisfied with almost all of Boulez' later recordings with DGG because to my ears they have a 'clinical' sound, which I attribute to the style of audio engineering. They strike me as sounding different from the typical DGG recordings of the time and I suspect that was how Boulez wanted them to sound. They just don't appeal to me. I find myself enjoying his older Columbia/Sony recordings much more.

I think my favorite Boulez recording form his later years was the Schoenberg Pelleas et Melisande recorded by Erato, with the CSO I think. Remarkable transparency, which I consider the hallmark of a Boulez recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 14, 2018, 03:51:38 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 14, 2018, 06:04:21 AM
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! [throws himself between students and stereo system in bullet-catching fashion] Not Boulez!!!

What do you have against Boulez's interpretations of Mahler? Personally, I find he is able to bring all elements of the counterpoint and orchestration together with very sensitively shaped phrasing and an amazing sense of some kind of underlying structural propulsion that makes his performances sound very cohesive. What I admire most about Boulez is his ability not just to shape the lines of counterpoint or melody that appear on the surface, but also to phrase the underlying melodic lines, motifs and gestures that exist beneath it. Even though Mahler wasn't one who wrote Hauptstimme and Nebenstimme into his scores, Boulez understands perfectly where and when they occur in the orchestral texture, shapes them accordingly and manages to make all lines of music exist interdependently but with utmost clarity.

But I am curious to hear what a pro music critic thinks :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 14, 2018, 03:55:26 PM
Quote from: jessop on March 14, 2018, 03:51:38 PM
What do you have against Boulez's interpretations of Mahler? Personally, I find he is able to bring all elements of the counterpoint and orchestration together with very sensitively shaped phrasing and an amazing sense of some kind of underlying structural propulsion that makes his performances sound very cohesive. What I admire most about Boulez is his ability not just to shape the lines of counterpoint or melody that appear on the surface, but also to phrase the underlying melodic lines, motifs and gestures that exist beneath it. Even though Mahler wasn't one who wrote Hauptstimme and Nebenstimme into his scores, Boulez understands perfectly where and when they occur in the orchestral texture, shapes them accordingly and manages to make all lines of music exist interdependently but with utmost clarity.

^^^This is why I still haven't sold off my Boulez/Mahler Box, even though I don't count myself as owning it any more. I need to guard against the possibility that I will read a paragraph like this and buy the stinker again. (It's happened to me before.) :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 14, 2018, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: jessop on March 14, 2018, 03:51:38 PM
What do you have against Boulez's interpretations of Mahler? Personally, I find he is able to bring all elements of the counterpoint and orchestration together with very sensitively shaped phrasing and an amazing sense of some kind of underlying structural propulsion that makes his performances sound very cohesive. What I admire most about Boulez is his ability not just to shape the lines of counterpoint or melody that appear on the surface, but also to phrase the underlying melodic lines, motifs and gestures that exist beneath it. Even though Mahler wasn't one who wrote Hauptstimme and Nebenstimme into his scores, Boulez understands perfectly where and when they occur in the orchestral texture, shapes them accordingly and manages to make all lines of music exist interdependently but with utmost clarity.

But I am curious to hear what a pro music critic thinks :)

I had no idea of the antipathy toward the DGG Boulez recording, but Mr. Jessop parallels here what my ears perceive!  :D  One of the reasons why I play this one for the students is that the text is fairly clear all the time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 14, 2018, 04:39:17 PM
Actually I find it very interesting whenever I hear someone disparage Boulez's Mahler. Evidently they are hearing something in his interpretation that I am not, so I do wish to learn more. One of fellow composition student friends says Boulez 'has no heart' in his interpretations of music in the Romantic and Classical traditions, but unfortunately I cannot hear the heartlessness in how he very convincingly moves from one tempo to another, or how he balances and subtly phrases different lines of counterpoint, or how he cohesively creates a sense of underlying movement throughout an entire thirty minute stretch of music. I don't know where the heartlessness is. I would be interested in having it pointed out to me. Perhaps I am not listening properly or something.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 14, 2018, 05:42:39 PM
Quote from: jessop on March 14, 2018, 04:39:17 PM
Actually I find it very interesting whenever I hear someone disparage Boulez's Mahler. Evidently they are hearing something in his interpretation that I am not, so I do wish to learn more. One of fellow composition student friends says Boulez 'has no heart' in his interpretations of music in the Romantic and Classical traditions, but unfortunately I cannot hear the heartlessness in how he very convincingly moves from one tempo to another, or how he balances and subtly phrases different lines of counterpoint, or how he cohesively creates a sense of underlying movement throughout an entire thirty minute stretch of music. I don't know where the heartlessness is. I would be interested in having it pointed out to me. Perhaps I am not listening properly or something.

To alter a famous Latin phrase: De auribus non est disputandum!  8)  The odds are that you are listening quite properly, in a way that suits you, and any heartlessness will never be obvious.

Consider that my brother-in-law closed his eyes and yawned within 30 seconds during a demonstration of my surround-sound system - with the opening of the last movement of Mahler's First Symphony roaring - and announced that it was putting him to sleep. :o :o :o ??? ??? ??? ::) ::) ::)

He heard "relaxing classical music," while I heard the wildest forces of The Id unchained!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on March 14, 2018, 06:03:56 PM
I can't say Boulez' Mahler is insensitive or leaves me cold. It does not. I can feel the rightness, the sense of total security he brings to his performances of Mahler's music.

In the movie Andreï Rublev, there's this strange, oniric scene in the Prologue where Rublev escapes in a balloon. Rublev lived in the 15th century and the hot air balloon was not invented before the 18th. Right there at the start of the movie you have that strong disconnect with objective reality and at the same time the intrusion of a total fantasy that challenges the reason. You know you're in for something really special in the next 3 hours.

That's the feeling I like to experience when listening to Mahler: a sense of mental levitation, of being totally out of touch and out of reach. Mahler's music challenges the listener to experience that kind of subjectivity. Not every conductor achieves that. Boulez, in my experience, does not. What he offers instead is total objectivity with regard to the score. Not everybody achieves that either, so there's something to reflect on.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 14, 2018, 06:19:10 PM
Quote from: jessop on March 14, 2018, 04:39:17 PM
Actually I find it very interesting whenever I hear someone disparage Boulez's Mahler. Evidently they are hearing something in his interpretation that I am not, so I do wish to learn more. One of fellow composition student friends says Boulez 'has no heart' in his interpretations of music in the Romantic and Classical traditions, but unfortunately I cannot hear the heartlessness in how he very convincingly moves from one tempo to another, or how he balances and subtly phrases different lines of counterpoint, or how he cohesively creates a sense of underlying movement throughout an entire thirty minute stretch of music. I don't know where the heartlessness is. I would be interested in having it pointed out to me. Perhaps I am not listening properly or something.
If we take a specific example, like the 7th, his tempi are rather frustrating for me. The first movement in particular feels plodding at times (it doesn't always, there are good moments), and I think that this distorts the line too much. The end of the first movement seems so lacking to me in terms of that wonderful explosion of sound. There is no buildup whatsoever and it sort of limps along where almost any other interpretation gives me such a high there.

If it makes you feel better, my favorite is Kondrashin and I think Serge bought it partially because I raved about it and I think he hated it (apologies if this is not true, but I seem to remember it this way (and apologies if it is true for buying something you don't listen to!). Sometimes something just clicks. Someone wrote recently about how horrible the Mahler 2 Abaddo/Lucerne is. Well, it's the first Mahler anything where I heard what so many others were already hearing. I love it. So as good as some versions may be, not everyone wants the same aspects of the work emphasized.

The other thing I'd add is that finding a conductor who is universally loved in Mahler is quite difficult to find. There are always people who think someone else performs his work better (for the most part meaning they really just bring out something else in the work), which dovetails nicely with Andre's last comment.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on March 14, 2018, 06:57:12 PM
Quote from: jessop on March 14, 2018, 04:39:17 PM
Actually I find it very interesting whenever I hear someone disparage Boulez's Mahler. Evidently they are hearing something in his interpretation that I am not, so I do wish to learn more. One of fellow composition student friends says Boulez 'has no heart' in his interpretations of music in the Romantic and Classical traditions, but unfortunately I cannot hear the heartlessness in how he very convincingly moves from one tempo to another, or how he balances and subtly phrases different lines of counterpoint, or how he cohesively creates a sense of underlying movement throughout an entire thirty minute stretch of music. I don't know where the heartlessness is. I would be interested in having it pointed out to me. Perhaps I am not listening properly or something.
It seems to be—if you'll forgive the terminology—a meme. When Boulez began conducting Mahler the name on everyone's lips was Bernstein, and Bernstein tends to imprint on the music he conducts, especially Mahler, who many conductors do seem to see as the most interpretable composer in the repertoire (though often "interpret" apparently means "make a wet handkerchief of"). As the one most often credited with bringing Mahler into the mainstream, Bernstein is still The Man for many people when it comes to this music. Some might cite Kubelík or Walter, Klemperer or even Scherchen, but for most people Bernstein and Mahler are inextricably bound together. Boulez seems much more monastic in his approach, as if he views the score as a higher power than himself; despite his reputation as a mud slinger and a bully I think his recorded body of work reveals a musician of great humility and empathy. At the risk of oversimplifying and sparking a row: Boulez gives you what Mahler wrote, Bernstein gives you an elaboration, what he thinks Mahler meant by what he wrote. Why people prefer one over the other is a meaningless question, but if Boulez is cold then perhaps Mahler is cold too.

That's not to say Boulez is the perfect conductor or anything. He does of course interpret, it's impossible not to, and he has his weaknesses like anyone else. On that note, I wish—and I am not talking about Boulez specifically—more conductors would be like Walter and Klemperer and recognise that maybe one symphony or another just isn't for them. The "Everestism" about "doing a Mahler cycle" is a fad that needs to end, most of them are totally interchangeable exercises in the main, and only a symphony or two in the entire set might have something interesting in it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 12:33:27 AM
Quote from: jessop on March 14, 2018, 03:51:38 PM
What do you have against Boulez's interpretations of Mahler? Personally, I find he is able to bring all elements of the counterpoint and orchestration together with very sensitively shaped phrasing and an amazing sense of some kind of underlying structural propulsion that makes his performances sound very cohesive. What I admire most about Boulez is his ability not just to shape the lines of counterpoint or melody that appear on the surface, but also to phrase the underlying melodic lines, motifs and gestures that exist beneath it. Even though Mahler wasn't one who wrote Hauptstimme and Nebenstimme into his scores, Boulez understands perfectly where and when they occur in the orchestral texture, shapes them accordingly and manages to make all lines of music exist interdependently but with utmost clarity.

But I am curious to hear what a pro music critic thinks :)

Nothing. Quite the opposite, I love Boulez' Mahler. I think his cycle may be the new standard-setter, surpassing Gielen in that respect. At his best he's among the best (1, 5, 6, 7), elsewhere he's at least very good (2, 4, 9), and in 3 he brings unique qualities (x-ray vision) to the work that I happen to love.

If anything, I may have been among the earlier GMG-Mahler-heads to point out that Boulez has recorded Mahler that goes well beyond the stereotype we might have of him. And, if I remember correctly, a lot of what I stated in my Mahler-Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html) was borne out by the occ. blind listening we did here. (See post above/below)

But the 8th stinks. It's just atrocious. He hated it and you can hear it. Similar to Haitink's case, who also didn't get the work and couldn't muster a great performance.

Quote
Quote from: André on March 14, 2018, 10:28:14 AM
Admittedly, Boulez' earlier performance (1971, with BBC forces) is more involved. Generally speaking I find the same qualities in his Debussy and his Mahler: objective to a fault, with little in the way of colouring or emotional involvement. If it's in the score, Pierre will find it. But he won't make any suggestions for a more eventful journey. His conducting reminds me a bit of the synthetic voice on my GPS: « In 300 feet, take the next exit and keep left until the next set of lights ».

For some reason I think he excels in Ravel. Because Maurice is a wizard with orchestral colours and textures, a conductor with an analytic set of ears will reveal the score's felicities especially well.

Well, I think a lot of the Boulez-stereotypes don't actually fit in Mahler, which is passionate, involving, even warm (1, 2, 5), riveting (6, 7), reasonably long-lined (4, 9)... or where it applies (cool, see-through), it works well (3). But the Eighth is an uninvolved chore, ungladly performed, run down without involvement or insight. It's arguably worse than Solti, because even if Solti (or Rattle) also get it really wrong, the former has great sound and some sort of sportive passion on his side.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on March 15, 2018, 01:08:06 AM
I too am an admirer of Boulez's Mahler (no surprise there), as I think, by avoiding an overtly emotional approach to the works, he underlines their purely musical values. IMHO, in music such as this, emphasizing the music's (real or alleged) "message"—à la Bernstein e.g.—simply brings one aspect of it to the forefront, often masking others which I personally find more attractive, such as the baffling counterpoint, orchestration, thematic development, etc.

Having said that, I am with Jens regarding the Boulez's Eighth. I read in an interview he really didn't care much for the work (neither do I, FWIW), and was not sure he would record it. Then, surprisingly, he did, and I read somewhere he actually funded the recording himself. If the latter is true, I suppose the idea of having a complete cycle (his DG traversal of Mahler's music is actually the most complete, except for the completion of the 10th, which he—along with other noted conductors—completely dismissed) imposed itself over any reservations he had about the Eighth. The result is a performance that IMHO is not that successful, and doesn't show the qualities one (or at least I) associates with Boulez in Mahler. The vocal soloists aren't that great either IMO. FWIW, my go-to Eighth is Sinopoli's ( the "anti-Boulez"?).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on March 15, 2018, 01:37:59 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 12:33:27 AM
If anything, I may have been among the earlier GMG-Mahler-heads to point out that Boulez has recorded Mahler that goes well beyond the stereotype we might have of him. And, if I remember correctly, a lot of what I stated in my Mahler-Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html) was borne out by the occ. blind listening we did here.

In the blind comparison of recordings of the 6th symphony, Boulez was ranked 5th (out of 24) and 5th out of 5 in the final round.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.240.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.240.html)
Shortly after that the subject for comparison was the 1st symphony, and Boulez was ranked 13th (out of 24), unlucky not to make it into round 2.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20853.140.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20853.140.html)
A later blind comparison of the 2nd symphony sadly didn't get past the first round, but at least Boulez was not among the 8 (out of 32) 1st-round fallers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 01:40:18 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 15, 2018, 01:37:59 AM
In the blind comparison of recordings of the 6th symphony, Boulez was ranked 5th (out of 24) and 5th out of 5 in the final round.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.240.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.240.html)
Shortly after that the subject for comparison was the 1st symphony, and Boulez was ranked 13th (out of 24), unlucky not to make it into round 2.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20853.140.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20853.140.html)
A later blind comparison of the 2nd symphony sadly didn't get past the first round, but at least Boulez was not among the 8 (out of 32) 1st-round fallers.

Hmm... I sort of had thought he might have had higher finishes. I was probably just pleased by comments in general agreement with my takes that Sarge made, which stick to my mind disproportionately strongly.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on March 15, 2018, 01:51:02 AM
I wasn't intending to refute what you had written - just putting the information out there for reference  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 15, 2018, 02:09:41 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 15, 2018, 12:33:27 AM
Nothing. Quite the opposite, I love Boulez' Mahler. I think his cycle may be the new standard-setter, surpassing Gielen in that respect. At his best he's among the best (1, 5, 6, 7), elsewhere he's at least very good (2, 4, 9), and in 3 he brings unique qualities (x-ray vision) to the work that I happen to love.

If anything, I may have been among the earlier GMG-Mahler-heads to point out that Boulez has recorded Mahler that goes well beyond the stereotype we might have of him. And, if I remember correctly, a lot of what I stated in my Mahler-Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html) was borne out by the occ. blind listening we did here. (See post above/below)

But the 8th stinks. It's just atrocious. He hated it and you can hear it. Similar to Haitink's case, who also didn't get the work and couldn't muster a great performance.

Well, I think a lot of the Boulez-stereotypes don't actually fit in Mahler, which is passionate, involving, even warm (1, 2, 5), riveting (6, 7), reasonably long-lined (4, 9)... or where it applies (cool, see-through), it works well (3). But the Eighth is an uninvolved chore, ungladly performed, run down without involvement or insight. It's arguably worse than Solti, because even if Solti (or Rattle) also get it really wrong, the former has great sound and some sort of sportive passion on his side.




Ah right I missed one of your posts outlining you were only referring to the 8th. I haven't ever listened to the 8th enough to have a preference of recording so I can't say anything regarding the matter.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 15, 2018, 02:16:06 AM
There is so much to take in here, there has been a lot of activity since I last visited - it is probably best to start with the 8th Symphony. I find this symphony problematic and have done ever since my first encounter with it - Bernstein/LSO for CBS. Quite often I don't get to the end though I did in the most recent version I acquired (as part of a large Harmonia Mundi box of assorted choral works), Ngano and his Berlin forces. In so far as I have a favourite, it is Chailly/Concergebouw. Solti is too fenzied and Haitink just plain dull. I can't comment on Boulez as I don't have his recording.

My thoughts on Boulez and Mahler are that he is fine in the later symphonies but doesn't inhabit the 'Wunderhorn' world of the earlier works very comfortably; I didn't enjoy his No 3 though I see other posters did. The first Boulez Mahler I ever heard was his recording of Waldmarchen coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. The Adagio is a poor performance made worse by using a corrupt edition of the score. Waldmarchen was interesting as it was the first ever recording but I find it goes against the Boulez stereotype by being too emotional, often to the point of being overwrought.

I am obviously not 'most' people. I was introduced to Mahler by a fellow student and his Haitink/Concertgebouw records of Symphonies 1 - 4. This was followed by Solti (No 1) and Kubelik (No 9) borrowed from a record library. The first Mahler I bought was Das Lied von der Erde (Klemperer) and Des Knaben Wunderhorn (Szell). The first numbered symphony was No 5 (Barbirolli/NPO), followed by No 6 (Kubelik/BRSO) - Bernstein (Nos 7,8 & 9) came later as did the Haitink set. Supplemented by Horenstein's No 3 (my first duplication!) these recording formed my impressions of Mahler for many years. The lunacy of multiple CD versions was still in the future.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 15, 2018, 03:34:46 AM
Many thanks for all the comments!

The Bernstein/N.Y. Philharmonic performance of the Eighth was the first I had heard, and it is a mighty one!  I recall not liking the Solti in comparison with the Bernstein: there seemed to be some "monkeying around" in the recording booth and I found those effects jarring.

I believe this has been offered earlier: a c. 10-minute interview with Pierre Boulez specifically about Mahler:

https://www.youtube.com/v/bfLoQ1fDvEQ

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 15, 2018, 04:10:48 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 15, 2018, 03:34:46 AM
Many thanks for all the comments!

The Bernstein/N.Y. Philharmonic performance of the Eighth was the first I had heard, and it is a mighty one!  I recall not liking the Solti in comparison with the Bernstein: there seemed to be some "monkeying around" in the recording booth and I found those effects jarring.

I believe this has been offered earlier: a c. 10-minute interview with Pierre Boulez specifically about Mahler:

https://www.youtube.com/v/bfLoQ1fDvEQ

The Bernstein 8th I bought was recorded in London. It followed a live performance in the Royal Albert Hall and the record box rather misleadingly had a picture of that event on the front cover. The recording itself was made in Walthamstow Assembly Hall with, I believe, smaller forces. I recall reading it was an attempt to get a massive sound in a much smaller hall. I always found the sound rather congested and not comfortable to listen to. I have to add this was on LP and not very sophisticated hi-fi. I have recently bought the CBS/Sony cycle in its latest remastering. I have been working my through it but haven't reached the 8th yet; it should be interesting to hear it again after many years and in modern sound and on better equipment.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on March 15, 2018, 05:31:27 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 15, 2018, 03:34:46 AM
I believe this has been offered earlier: a c. 10-minute interview with Pierre Boulez specifically about Mahler:

"Did you talk to Bernstein about Mahler?"
[smiles] "I think there was an agreement we don't touch this kind of subject."   ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 15, 2018, 05:35:47 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 15, 2018, 01:37:59 AM
In the blind comparison of recordings of the 6th symphony, Boulez was ranked 5th (out of 24) and 5th out of 5 in the final round.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.240.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.240.html)
Shortly after that the subject for comparison was the 1st symphony, and Boulez was ranked 13th (out of 24), unlucky not to make it into round 2.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20853.140.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20853.140.html)
A later blind comparison of the 2nd symphony sadly didn't get past the first round, but at least Boulez was not among the 8 (out of 32) 1st-round fallers.

My sense is that Boulez's Mahler builds over long stretches, so in clips it can sound less than enthralling, while over the course of a movement or a symphony it becomes electric.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 15, 2018, 06:06:17 AM
Blind listening can be instructive and occasionally puncture prejudices. I was resistant to Karajan's Mahler for many years. Eventually I bought the 5th Symphony when it became available as a bargain price disc; I didn't enjoy it and never listened to it again. A couple of years ago I downloaded a free app which contained a Mahler symphony cycle (Nos 1 - 9).  It was an eclectic bunch of recordings and had no documentation whatsoever, in some case not even metadata. No 5 was particularly frustrating as it was dramatic performance that had me gripped. I was finally able to access the metadata by transferring it to my PC. The performance was Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, the same performance I had disdained on CD.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on March 15, 2018, 06:20:17 AM
The interview with Boulez is fascinating in many respects, particularly for the lucidity, honesty and candidness of his views. Not to mention his impeccable command of the language - he was even more fluent in German, I think. A master thinker, no less.

When I wrote about the « levitation » I look for in Mahler's music, let me add that I don't find that in « overinterepreted » performances, quite the contrary. Therefore none of Bernstein's recordings makes it to my top 3 for any given symphony. Certainly I am much taken with some (not all) very intense, impassioned performances, whether fast or slow, like those of Scherchen, Barbirolli, Morris or Horenstein.

As a rule, though, my tastes go toward clean, direct, no-nonsense conducting like Haitink's, Kubelik's or even Abravanel's. For some reason they manage (IMHO) to find the right geist in their Mahler interpretations and that arises strictly from their cool, lucid, uninterventionist way with the scores. In sum, I enjoy many different types of approaches, but it's the affection and sincerity that win the day. Intensity is like salt and sugar: too much can ruin the plate.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Draško on March 17, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
I've noticed there was a discussion of Tennstedt's Mahler, can't find it now but here's my two cents. I've heard couple of his studio recordings on EMI ages ago and they've made barely any impression but heard recently his live Resurrection with LPO on their own label and was blown away, incredible, the best I've heard in years and definitely one of the best I have ever heard.
It's a superbly dramatic, emotional performance, in Bernstein vein, nowhere near middle of the road. Very slow overall but tension is maintained at all times, tempos are extremely flexible, lyrical passages often slowed down but played with lovely inflections and lots of fine detail, never losing the line. Big moments really let rip. This type of interpretation can sound maudlin and sentimental but this one never does, there is honesty and utter conviction to it, and orchestra really gives their all, kind of playing I think I never heard from LPO. Same goes for chorus. And even recorded sound is pretty spectacular, given that is late 80s live. I generally prefer more propulsive accounts but this one is absolutely worth hearing even to those who like somewhat different Mahler. My definite recommendation.

As for Tennstedt, from this recording, then live broadcast of Boston Bruckner 8th, and the video of Siegfried's funeral march on youtube I'd say he is one of those conductors who is night and day in studio and live.
I most certainly intend to pursue more of his live Mahler, there is more of it on LPO's own label, ICA, BBC Legends and Hanssler. Don't think I'll bother with any of his studio stuff.   
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 17, 2018, 10:00:51 AM
Quote from: Draško on March 17, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
I've noticed there was a discussion of Tennstedt's Mahler, can't find it now but here's my two cents. I've heard couple of his studio recordings on EMI ages ago and they've made barely any impression but heard recently his live Resurrection with LPO on their own label and was blown away, incredible, the best I've heard in years and definitely one of the best I have ever heard.
It's a superbly dramatic, emotional performance, in Bernstein vein, nowhere near middle of the road. Very slow overall but tension is maintained at all times, tempos are extremely flexible, lyrical passages often slowed down but played with lovely inflections and lots of fine detail, never losing the line. Big moments really let rip. This type of interpretation can sound maudlin and sentimental but this one never does, there is honesty and utter conviction to it, and orchestra really gives their all, kind of playing I think I never heard from LPO. Same goes for chorus. And even recorded sound is pretty spectacular, given that is late 80s live. I generally prefer more propulsive accounts but this one is absolutely worth hearing even to those who like somewhat different Mahler. My definite recommendation.

As for Tennstedt, from this recording, then live broadcast of Boston Bruckner 8th, and the video of Siegfried's funeral march on youtube I'd say he is one of those conductors who is night and day in studio and live.
I most certainly intend to pursue more of his live Mahler, there is more of it on LPO's own label, ICA, BBC Legends and Hanssler. Don't think I'll bother with any of his studio stuff.

I think his studio versions of most of the symphonies are fine, even if they don't have the same fire as his live recordings.  An exception is the Second, which I think is rather limp.  The live version you mentioned is immeasurably superior.  (His live Eighth is also much better than his studio equivalent, and the early 80s live Sixth is one of the most intense versions I've heard.)

Still, at his best, Tennstedt was very unlike Bernstein in that his interpretation, while free, doesn't do anything against the text, and he certainly never tries to simplify Mahler's textures to make him a melody+accompaniment composer, which destroys his music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 19, 2018, 03:14:49 PM
I have re-listened twice now to the second movement of the DGG Boulez performance of Mahler's Eighth Symphony, and I still find it magical, evoking the mystery in both the text and music to a great degree, especially in the last 10 minutes or so.  And throughout the performance the clarity of the lines, remarked upon earlier by several people here, is remarkable...and yes, I followed along with my study score.

I should mention the Boulez performance of the Seventh Symphony with the Chicago Symphony (probably at Carnegie Hall, 2006?), a performance which parallels his incredible Cleveland Orchestra/DGG version.  I caught the former on the radio, and for several split seconds thought I was listening to Webern, when the Scherzo came on!

See:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E5DB1431F932A25751C1A9609C8B63 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E5DB1431F932A25751C1A9609C8B63)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 20, 2018, 03:00:40 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 19, 2018, 03:14:49 PM
I have re-listened twice now to the second movement of the DGG Boulez performance of Mahler's Eighth Symphony, and I still find it magical, evoking the mystery in both the text and music to a great degree, especially in the last 10 minutes or so.  And throughout the performance the clarity of the lines, remarked upon earlier by several people here, is remarkable...and yes, I followed along with my study score.

I should mention the Boulez performance of the Seventh Symphony with the Chicago Symphony (probably at Carnegie Hall, 2006?), a performance which parallels his incredible Cleveland Orchestra/DGG version.  I caught the former on the radio, and for several split seconds thought I was listening to Webern, when the Scherzo came on!

See:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E5DB1431F932A25751C1A9609C8B63 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E5DB1431F932A25751C1A9609C8B63)

Do you know the Ozawa recording of the 8th? Most successful 2nd mvt. I know.

As per M7 & Boulez, I had a cutely similar-ish experience -- well, at least one with the same ingredients: I was listening to rehearsals of the RCO with Boulez conducting. M7 was on the program (and indeed the reason I was there). He rehearsed something else, first; I didn't know what but I assumed it was one of his own pieces. I listened... began to really like it, and thought to myself: Oh Geez, Boulez, you're really becoming an lush romantic on your old days! Turns out it was Webern Six Pieces.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 20, 2018, 03:01:56 AM
I don't quite understand the criticism of Boulez's recording of Mahler's 7th symphony, in terms of the tempo of the first movement. I really love how natural and smooth the tempo changes in the first section, leading up to and including the Allegro con Fuoco. Even though the Allegro con Fuoco is much slower than what one might expect, Boulez actually uses the slower tempo to the music's advantage, bringing out and emphasising the alterations to the original first couples of phrases, like when the strings take over immediately after them. They get a beautifully phrased melody, and likewise the brass countermelody is phrased to complement it without ever overriding it. Sudden homorhythms are given adequate space to breathe, intensifying the dissonant chords where appropriate and further pushing the rather dissonant side of Mahler's music towards not only its temporally distant resolution but a more satisfying one.

Just one of example under the microscope of how he uses tempo to justify a short term resolution to a passage of music:

As Boulez has established a tendency in the introduction to have fluidity in his tempo, he uses it appropriately at bar 92 (zart aber ausdrucksvoll=tender but expressive) to even point out a moment of melody that comments on the introduction of the chromatic gestures of the horns in the previous phrases. The rhythm that Mahler opts for is a two note upbeat, undoubtedly related to other two note upbeats that permeate the entire movement, but specifically recalls those earlier horn gestures and develops their motif by inverting the direction of pitches. It seems to my ears that Boulez slows down a little on those two quavers not just to draw out their melodic importance, not just to make them sound more 'tender but expressive' but as a means of using their melodic importance as a development on the horns' previous chromatically descending gestures. It takes the music in a different direction where Boulez adds rhythmic tension by using the oboes', cor anglais' and clarinets' triplets crotchets to propel the music back to the original tempo he uses for the Allegro con Fuoco. The 'tender but expressive' is performed the way it is for the purpose of being a passage from which Boulez can audibly and naturally build up the tension of the music before releasing that tension into the passage beginning bar 99.

I might also add, that the cello line to which I refer is sometimes played underneath the less interesting melody that is going on in the violins at the same time (SBSO/Dudamel, BRSO/Janssons, Düsseldorf/Fischer, SaarbrückenRSO/Zender). Mahler gives no indication in the score through any Hauptstimme marking or through a difference in dynamic that the cello line is the most important part here, but he does through the register of the cello and thematic relationship to previous material. Also, most other recordings I have heard do not use the reed triplets in the way Boulez does to aid the change of tempo into bar 99, and when a conductor does use those triplets rhythms as a means of transitioning to a more stable bar 99 then the accel happens so late that it compresses and distorts the rhythm so that it is much less audibly another occurrence of the triplet motif such as in Bernstein's 2nd audio recording. Most of the time, however, a conductor simply zips through passages like these where Mahler takes the time and effort to write in a few hints to open up interesting interpretative possibilities. ;D

But in the end, different conductors do different things, and whilst I am not typically fond of the first movement of this symphony played on the slow side I actually find Boulez's interpretation to be one of the more convincing approaches to tempo in any Mahler recording I have ever heard. It never really sounds plodding, it always allows the music to have a bit of breathing space and Boulez uses this breathing space to push and pull a bit at the speed very naturally without having to distort the line ever.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on March 20, 2018, 04:04:30 AM
A small part of what you describe may be attributed to the very involving nature of DG's "4D" recording style of the mid-'90s - which seems to divide opinion though personally I love it.

I never listen to the outer movements of the 7th but do very much enjoy the middle three, and in these I find Boulez a bit quick for my taste - though the clarity of the recording is just wonderful.  Gielen for example takes the two Nachtmusiken a bit slower, or if I'm feeling hardcore, there is always Klemperer ...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 20, 2018, 04:10:26 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 20, 2018, 04:04:30 AM
A small part of what you describe may be attributed to the very involving nature of DG's "4D" recording style of the mid-'90s - which seems to divide opinion though personally I love it.

I never listen to the outer movements of the 7th but do very much enjoy the middle three, and in these I find Boulez a bit quick for my taste - though the clarity of the recording is just wonderful.  Gielen for example takes the two Nachtmusiken a bit slower, or if I'm feeling hardcore, there is always Klemperer ...

They only thing that I could love more in Boulez 7th was, if he had taken the Nachtmusiken still more Italianate. They're so full of Italian opera references... but mostly to music that Boulez probably didn't like... possibly didn't even know. That's where the Abbado II recording score big-time. But his finale is the best, methinks... and the first movement is second only to Barenboim's, and that only on account of the very opening of the movement, where Barenboim gets those 'shuddering dog / starting-a-car-at-30-below' ripples so damn right.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 20, 2018, 06:27:49 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 20, 2018, 04:10:26 AM
They only thing that I could love more in Boulez 7th was, if he had taken the Nachtmusiken still more Italianate. They're so full of Italian opera references... but mostly to music that Boulez probably didn't like... possibly didn't even know. That's where the Abbado II recording score big-time. But his finale is the best, methinks... and the first movement is second only to Barenboim's, and that only on account of the very opening of the movement, where Barenboim gets those 'shuddering dog / starting-a-car-at-30-below' ripples so damn right.

Wasn't the start of the first movement supposedly inspired by the sound of oars in the water Mahler heard on a boat ride ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 20, 2018, 06:29:06 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 20, 2018, 06:27:49 AM
Wasn't the start of the first movement supposedly inspired by the sound of oars in the water Mahler heard on a boat ride ?

Yes, he said that oars on the lake by his summer home provided the rhythmic impulse for the opening.

Incidentally, I fully agree with Jessop here; Boulez's first movement may seem really slow at first, and for me there's always a bit of mental adjustment involved in listening to its opening moments, but the momentum he builds over the course of the whole structure is magnificent, and when he reaches the B major section at the climax of the development, it's breathtaking because he has worked to achieve that goal for the last 15 minutes or so.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 20, 2018, 07:36:19 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 20, 2018, 06:29:06 AM
Yes, he said that oars on the lake by his summer home provided the rhythmic impulse for the opening.

Incidentally, I fully agree with Jessop here; Boulez's first movement may seem really slow at first, and for me there's always a bit of mental adjustment involved in listening to its opening moments, but the momentum he builds over the course of the whole structure is magnificent, and when he reaches the B major section at the climax of the development, it's breathtaking because he has worked to achieve that goal for the last 15 minutes or so.
No. That's the problem. You wait and wait for some sort of release to the tension and it NEVER comes. It's the ultimate tease. Even with versions I like less, I still get the tingle (or goosebumps). But with this one, you don't get it.

And that ignores that it plods along, often a pretty plod mind you, but a plod never the less. By the time the flutes come in for the opening, you feel like you are walking in quicksand (with every step straining to hold your boot), not rowing a boat on the lake.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 20, 2018, 08:00:50 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 20, 2018, 07:36:19 AM
No. That's the problem. You wait and wait for some sort of release to the tension and it NEVER comes. It's the ultimate tease. Even with versions I like less, I still get the tingle (or goosebumps). But with this one, you don't get it.

And that ignores that it plods along, often a pretty plod mind you, but a plod never the less. By the time the flutes come in for the opening, you feel like you are walking in quicksand (with every step straining to hold your boot), not rowing a boat on the lake.

Mahler wrote symphonies, not tone poems.  The source of the inspiration is ultimately irrelevant, and the musical effect paramount.  I am sorry that you do not enjoy Boulez's recording of the work, but I certainly do feel that frisson of excitement when the height of the development is reached, so while you may speak for yourself and for others as well, you do not speak for me or my own experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 20, 2018, 02:15:05 PM
I think Boulez really brings out the structure of the work, makes the excitement come not too often, but gives the music the music the momentum to arrive there when it does come. I can hear Boulez doing this subtly on a smaller scale (like my earlier example) and more obviously on a larger scale at the height of the development and nearing the return of the Allegro con Fuoco at the end. No conductor builds the music up over such a long period of time like Boulez can here, and, as I said previously, he uses tempo, orchestral balance and phrasing of each line (contrapuntal or not) to get there. He makes a temporally distant climax/resolution all the more satisfying and exciting to me, and along the way he brings out the smaller structures subtly but also with a lot more consideration than I can hear in other interpretations.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on March 20, 2018, 02:21:41 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 20, 2018, 04:04:30 AM
A small part of what you describe may be attributed to the very involving nature of DG's "4D" recording style of the mid-'90s - which seems to divide opinion though personally I love it.

I never listen to the outer movements of the 7th but do very much enjoy the middle three, and in these I find Boulez a bit quick for my taste - though the clarity of the recording is just wonderful.  Gielen for example takes the two Nachtmusiken a bit slower, or if I'm feeling hardcore, there is always Klemperer ...

Ahaha, yes the recording style is rather different to the more unified sound of many earlier recordings, but it doesn't badly affect Boulez's interpretation thankfully. The record engineering is fantastic and also gives some of the more densely contrapuntal passages some clarity to really hear what Boulez can do.

Personally I enjoy the faster Nachtmusik movements, but Gielen's recording is also great. I haven't yet been able to really get into Klemperer's, but I might reconsider my opinion of it later to see if I can listen to it without my personal prejudices getting in the way. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 20, 2018, 02:56:54 PM
Quote from: jessop on March 20, 2018, 02:15:05 PM
I think Boulez really brings out the structure of the work, makes the excitement come not too often, but gives the music the music the momentum to arrive there when it does come. I can hear Boulez doing this subtly on a smaller scale (like my earlier example) and more obviously on a larger scale at the height of the development and nearing the return of the Allegro con Fuoco at the end. No conductor builds the music up over such a long period of time like Boulez can here, and, as I said previously, he uses tempo, orchestral balance and phrasing of each line (contrapuntal or not) to get there. He makes a temporally distant climax/resolution all the more satisfying and exciting to me, and along the way he brings out the smaller structures subtly but also with a lot more consideration than I can hear in other interpretations.

Amen!   0:)

Many thanks to all for the replies above!

The 4D CD's from DGG sound really great on my BOSE SurroundSound system, now approaching 15 years of age.  Two of the best are Boulez performances, but this time of the complete Firebird ballet of Stravinsky (Second-best) and (First Place) Mahler's First Symphony!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on March 20, 2018, 04:00:46 PM
I like Boulez in the 7th, but my personal choice is Gielen. Right from the start, the way he phrases those tremolos really gets me going.

One of my favourites apart from that is the wonderfully bizarre Scherchen recording from 1965 with the Toronto Symphony Orchestra. The orchestra is not great, and the players make a lot of mistakes, but Scherchen's approach has a "just works" kind of thing going on no matter how crazy it might seem at first. The return of the first movement theme in the finale hits home in a way I've never heard in any other recording.

Scherchen's Mahler track record is quite spotty. Aside from his eccentric choices in interpretation he was often saddled with second (sometimes third, fourth, or fifth) rate orchestras, or inadequate forces, or short rehearsal times, and some of his recordings, like the infamous 5th with the RAI Milan orchestra, have huge chunks cut out of the score (the Scherzo lasts just five minutes!), but the Toronto 7th and the excellent 1958 2nd are both well worth hearing. There's also a disc with the 1st and 10th (Adagio) on Westminster (some imprint of DGG) that I like very much.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on March 21, 2018, 02:08:49 AM
There are also uncut Studio 5th and 7th with Scherchen on Westminster from the mid-1950s.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on March 21, 2018, 04:42:25 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 21, 2018, 02:08:49 AM
There are also uncut Studio 5th and 7th with Scherchen on Westminster from the mid-1950s.

Indeed, and for my money they beat 90% of the versions that followed. Not bad for 60 year old recordings!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Draško on March 21, 2018, 04:55:03 AM
Another vote for Scherchen Mahler. I love most of it (1, 2, 5, 7 especially), shabby but atmospheric. I'd never recommend it to anyone though.

And another vote to Gielen's Baden-Baden 7th. Fantastic recording, and easy to recommend.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Traverso on March 21, 2018, 05:12:39 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 15, 2018, 02:16:06 AM
There is so much to take in here, there has been a lot of activity since I last visited - it is probably best to start with the 8th Symphony. I find this symphony problematic and have done ever since my first encounter with it - Bernstein/LSO for CBS. Quite often I don't get to the end though I did in the most recent version I acquired (as part of a large Harmonia Mundi box of assorted choral works), Ngano and his Berlin forces. In so far as I have a favourite, it is Chailly/Concergebouw. Solti is too fenzied and Haitink just plain dull. I can't comment on Boulez as I don't have his recording.

My thoughts on Boulez and Mahler are that he is fine in the later symphonies but doesn't inhabit the 'Wunderhorn' world of the earlier works very comfortably; I didn't enjoy his No 3 though I see other posters did. The first Boulez Mahler I ever heard was his recording of Waldmarchen coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. The Adagio is a poor performance made worse by using a corrupt edition of the score. Waldmarchen was interesting as it was the first ever recording but I find it goes against the Boulez stereotype by being too emotional, often to the point of being overwrought.

I am obviously not 'most' people. I was introduced to Mahler by a fellow student and his Haitink/Concertgebouw records of Symphonies 1 - 4. This was followed by Solti (No 1) and Kubelik (No 9) borrowed from a record library. The first Mahler I bought was Das Lied von der Erde (Klemperer) and Des Knaben Wunderhorn (Szell). The first numbered symphony was No 5 (Barbirolli/NPO), followed by No 6 (Kubelik/BRSO) - Bernstein (Nos 7,8 & 9) came later as did the Haitink set. Supplemented by Horenstein's No 3 (my first duplication!) these recording formed my impressions of Mahler for many years. The lunacy of multiple CD versions was still in the future.

I hope that "the lunacy "brought you some happiness. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 21, 2018, 05:31:49 AM
Quote from: Traverso on March 21, 2018, 05:12:39 AM
I hope that "the lunacy "brought you some happiness. :D

A great deal of happiness and it continues. Every time I make a vow not to buy any more Mahler something interesting comes along (a CD or a book) and I succumb.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on March 21, 2018, 05:34:13 AM
The 2nd with Scherchen is probably the easiest to recommend. It has the best sound, even stereo and while a few tempi are very slow (the poor singer in "Urlicht" needs a lot of breath...) it is not that excentric. The sound in 1,5,7 ist not too bad, fairly average 1950s mono although in the 1st the triangle or some similar instruments is too prominent. Of these I found the 5th comparably uninteresting. Overall, with so much Mahler in very good sound around, they are probably more for listeners with special interest in the conductor or in Mahler performances before the composer became widely popular through the stereo recordings of the 1960s by Bernstein and other usual suspects.
I have not heard any of the wild live recordings, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on March 21, 2018, 06:44:35 AM
A distant link to Mahler...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81K5lB0it-L._SX522_.jpg)

Karl Rankl is not well known nowadays, but his place in the history of musical performances is very interesting. A student of
Schönberg and, later, of Webern, he was a member of the Society for Private Performances headed by his teacher. Both as a player and arranger, he participated in many performances by the group and, along with others (it was a kind of pioneering composition atelier) he arranged Mahler's Wunderhorn lieder as well as Bruckner's 7th symphony (recorded by the Linos Ensemble).

He also participated in premieres of Schönberg's Die Glückliche Hand and Von Heute auf Morgen and, as conductor, premiered Stauss' Die Frau Ohne Schatten in Austria, as well as Ernst Krenek's Karl V. He left Austria to take refuge in the UK. After the War he was named MD of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden. When he left in 1951 he became a peripatetician conductor. One of his return performances in Vienna was recorded: this 1954 performance of Mahler's 4th symphony, the tapes of which lay dormant in the ORF archives for the next 50 years.

This performance was recorded in the Grosser Saal, in Vienna's Musikverein. The sound (mono) is therefore very good:  wide, open, natural, undistorted. As the performance unfolded I had the impression the score was being written right there before my eyes/ears. I don't think I've heard a more naturally expressive performance of the 4th as this. Every tempo is completely natural, with flexible phrasing yet convincing logic and direction. Instrumental strands and balances are clearly audible, never overwrought or unnaturally manipulated.

There's a heart-stopping pause when the Gates of Heaven open in the slow movement and yet, the climax itself is unforced, almost a glimpse rather than a point of arrival (I was reminded of The Dream of Gerontius when God flashes before Gerontius' eyes). The movement's conclusion is a moment of musical levitation. Unforgettable. The playful finale for once makes sense: the whole symphony is a child's view of the world in music, not just its last, fairy-tale appendix. Sena Jurinac is the excellent soloist. More an adolescent Hansel than a child Gretel, maybe, very different from Teresa Stich-Randall under van Otterloo. This is a clear-eyed, wondrously affectionate yet natural account of the 4th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 21, 2018, 07:22:01 AM
Quote from: André on March 21, 2018, 06:44:35 AM
A distant link to Mahler...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81K5lB0it-L._SX522_.jpg)

Karl Rankl is not well known nowadays, but his place in the history of musical performances is very interesting. A student of


This performance was recorded in the Grosser Saal, in Vienna's Musikverein. The sound (mono) is therefore very good:  wide, open, natural, undistorted. As the performance unfolded I had the impression the score was being written right there before my eyes/ears. I don't think I've heard a more naturally expressive performance of the 4th as this. Every tempo is completely natural, with flexible phrasing yet convincing logic and direction. Instrumental strands and balances are clearly audible, never overwrought or unnaturally manipulated.

There's a heart-stopping pause when the Gates of Heaven open in the slow movement and yet, the climax itself is unforced, almost a glimpse rather than a point of arrival (I was reminded of The Dream of Gerontius when God flashes before Gerontius' eyes). The movement's conclusion is a moment of musical levitation. Unforgettable. The playful finale for once makes sense: the whole symphony is a child's view of the world in music, not just its last, fairy-tale appendix. Sena Jurinac is the excellent soloist. More an adolescent Hansel than a child Gretel, maybe, very different from Teresa Stich-Randall under van Otterloo. This is a clear-eyed, wondrously affectionate yet natural account of the 4th.

Many thanks for the tip!  Here is the performance - broken up by movements - on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/v/nZgE2zVYWkU
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on March 23, 2018, 02:12:20 PM
This afternoon I watched the Mahler 8, broadcast live from Rotterdam's De Doelen, with Yannick Nézet-Séguin, the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra, an excellent slate of soloists, and four choirs -- all on medici.tv. The pacing was luxurious and leisurely, but didn't feel slow. Nézet-Séguin showed admirable patience, and the orchestra was in really fine form. Of particular note: the small moments, like the many solos for the concertmaster, and the beautiful wind playing.

Most recently I watched Chailly's Lucerne performance on DVD. It's marvelous -- shows many of the same chamber music qualities of his studio recording with the Concertgebouw years ago -- but the soloists seem to be pushing, over-singing a bit, and nothing like that happened this afternoon.

As usual, the broadcast will be available to watch (likely at no charge) for awhile afterward. Those who admire the piece should definitely check it out.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 27, 2018, 11:37:57 PM
I had my ups and downs listening to Mahler 5 with Boulez

[asin]B004NO5HLG[/asin]

The first part (consisting of two movements) was striking, and I heard things, particularly, in the crazy episode towards the end of the funeral march, that I had not taken notice of before. Beautifully managed. I always feel that the second part (third movement) goes on too long in this piece, and Boulez did not resolve this for me. The Third part started off well, the Adagietto comes off (how can you mess it up, oh Abbado did) and the final movement begins well, the fugal writing having satisfying transparency of texture. But the big ending where the choral style theme from the second movement returns lacked grandeur. Too fast, too much clarity, it came off as almost prosaic. If I may use the K. work, Karajan slowed down and let the music have more time to unfold, and produced an ensemble from the Berlin Philharmonic that was looser, as though the different sections were at odds, giving the close a greater atmosphere of cataclysm. Barbirolli also slowed down a lot more and produced a more dramatic result.

Boulez was worth listening to, but far from my favorite version. Maybe I'll listen to Haitink again.

(Cross posted from the "what are you listening to" thread.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: motoboy on March 28, 2018, 04:07:44 AM
Does anyone have a favorite recording of the 3 part Klagende Lied? I have not yet heard the Waldmarchen.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 28, 2018, 07:13:21 AM
Quote from: motoboy on March 28, 2018, 04:07:44 AM
Does anyone have a favorite recording of the 3 part Klagende Lied? I have not yet heard the Waldmarchen.

Thanks!

Go for the real original version, with the unrevised parts 2 and 3 as well as part 1:
[asin]B0012K53TU[/asin]

Also available on a Nagano disc that I haven't heard.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 28, 2018, 07:15:53 AM
Quote from: motoboy on March 28, 2018, 04:07:44 AM
Does anyone have a favorite recording of the 3 part Klagende Lied? I have not yet heard the Waldmarchen.

Thanks!

This is problematic,  there is only one (as far as I am aware) authentic recording of the original 3 part DKL - Nagano with the Halle Orchestra, Choir & soloists and it is hard to find. All others are the two part, much revised version(s) (originally parts 2 & 3) that Mahler left with Waldmarchen bolted on.  The original version was composed in 1878-80 and never performed in Mahler's lifetime. Years later in Hamburg he revised the work dropping Waldmarchen and eventually publishing it in 1898/99 - this is the version most often performed. He revised it again and had it published in 1906 and made further changes after that.

Waldmarchen resurfaced in the 1970s and was performed and recorded by Pierre Boulez; it was issued coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. He had already recorded the two part work and CBS later coupled all three parts and issued them as 'Das Klagende Lied'. Over the years various companies have followed suit, not always making it clear that it is a hybrid work and not one that Mahler ever performed. Mahler's last word was the two-part version.

If you are just interested in hearing Waldmarchen you could go for one of these hybrids -  I have Rattle/CBSO and Chailly/Deutsches Symphonie Orchester Berlin. Both fine performances though Rattle has the advantage of being on a single disc.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 28, 2018, 07:19:46 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 28, 2018, 07:13:21 AM
Go for the real original version, with the unrevised parts 2 and 3 as well as part 1:
[asin]B0012K53TU[/asin]

Also available on a Nagano disc that I haven't heard.

Thanks Mahlerian, I didn't know this version existed - I will have to check it out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 28, 2018, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 28, 2018, 07:19:46 AM
Thanks Mahlerian, I didn't know this version existed - I will have to check it out.

No problem.  The original version is less refined than the later one (he really goes too far with the percussion in the original part 3) and reflects his inexperience, but it has a number of fascinating details that were chopped out for one reason or another, and I think it makes for a worthwhile listen.  I just might go for that disc later today...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 28, 2018, 08:03:14 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 28, 2018, 07:29:35 AM
No problem.  The original version is less refined than the later one (he really goes too far with the percussion in the original part 3) and reflects his inexperience, but it has a number of fascinating details that were chopped out for one reason or another, and I think it makes for a worthwhile listen.  I just might go for that disc later today...

I have the Nagano version on CD so know what to expect musically. I have already ordered the Jurowski! For some reason the two disc version is cheaper than the single disc (Amazon UK, marketplace sellers). Some of the Amazon reviews aren't too enthusiastic about the additional material but if the performance is a good one I won't complain. There is also a complaint that the booklet doesn't explain the differences between the versions but I already have plenty of info about that already.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: motoboy on March 28, 2018, 08:16:24 AM
Thanks, guys. I will definitely try this out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 28, 2018, 08:43:55 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 28, 2018, 08:03:14 AM
I have the Nagano version on CD so know what to expect musically. I have already ordered the Jurowski! For some reason the two disc version is cheaper than the single disc (Amazon UK, marketplace sellers). Some of the Amazon reviews aren't too enthusiastic about the additional material but if the performance is a good one I won't complain.

Including mine, if I recall correctly.  The second disc is a waste of space and the interview is rather uninteresting, but the concert is perfectly satisfactory.  Hope you enjoy, and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts when you see it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on March 28, 2018, 09:37:15 AM
Boulez for me.  I bought the vinyl of parts 2 & 3 (as now is) when it was first released (mid-70s?) and always enjoyed it, and technically one of CBS best recordings of that period.  The later release of Waldmarchen strangely seemed to be a less succesful recording from the engineering point of view, with the massed choral passages overloading the vinyl and running into distortion.  Still, I long ago needledropped these LPs for my continued listening pleasure. 
I listened to the Chailly recently but couldn't get past about 10 minutes of it, one of the female soloists, Fassbaender I think, sounded truly horrible to my ears.  :o  I also have Rattle but don't recall ever actually having listened to that one.

On another tack, I really like the cover art for the new Vanska recording of Symphony 6.  Sadly I won't be buying it as I don't much like that symphony and already have it well covered, but I look forward to this standard being maintained for the 7th or 9th ...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ufNoJUrQL._SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: kishnevi on March 28, 2018, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on March 28, 2018, 09:37:15 AM
Boulez for me.  I bought the vinyl of parts 2 & 3 (as now is) when it was first released (mid-70s?) and always enjoyed it, and technically one of CBS best recordings of that period.  The later release of Waldmarchen strangely seemed to be a less succesful recording from the engineering point of view, with the massed choral passages overloading the vinyl and running into distortion.  Still, I long ago needledropped these LPs for my continued listening pleasure. 
I listened to the Chailly recently but couldn't get past about 10 minutes of it, one of the female soloists, Fassbaender I think, sounded truly horrible to my ears.  :o  I also have Rattle but don't recall ever actually having listened to that one.

On another tack, I really like the cover art for the new Vanska recording of Symphony 6.  Sadly I won't be buying it as I don't much like that symphony and already have it well covered, but I look forward to this standard being maintained for the 7th or 9th ...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91ufNoJUrQL._SX425_.jpg)

It should be, since this is actually the second installment of his Mahler
[asin]B0711CKS48[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on March 29, 2018, 01:54:13 AM
Yes I bought that 5th and like it, though I believe some people here have reservations about it.  Of course, the competition is pretty stiff.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: motoboy on March 29, 2018, 03:49:11 AM
That 6th reminds me of:

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on April 07, 2018, 06:40:48 AM
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Kindertotenlieder-June-STRAUSS-Verklärung/dp/B075DR227H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523097383&sr=8-1&keywords=Mahler+fassbaender+Strauss

Celibidache, live in a 1983 concert of Kindertotenlieder and Tod und Verklärung
This very much reminds me of a live Giulini Les Nuits d'ete with Janet Baker. As there with Baker, so with Fassbaender. Each has to cope with the conductor's slowed down tempi, each piece surviving the vivisection, both singers sailing through it revealing detail after detail.

This is like a meditation, like trying to walk underwater in a dream. In each performance I mentioned, success hinges on the the synergy of the exceptional singers and their visionary conductors avoiding any grotesqueness. There is so much detail to hear and enormous concentration. Never have the songs sounded more like a symphony, so much of a piece, an arc across all five songs. Fassbaender recorded the piece again about eight years later, but by then the top of the voice had loosened, the vibrations under pressure edging towards the uncomfortable. Here she sounds completely glorious. The voice is very forward, but the orchestra is well balanced and is not relegated to accompaniment. The performance goes right to the top of my list with Baker's and Fischer Dieskau's.

Without applause or interval we move into the Strauss, maintaining the solemn, almost religious atmosphere.

As to be expected Celi provides a very elongated demise: it is completely riveting. The sound is warm, glamorous even and the various solos spring out, as they do in the Mahler. The music unfolds as yet another meditation. The journey has its excitements, which are more integrated rather than pointed up as contrasts. The long breathed ending feels inevitable and benedictory, light, iridescent, calm, a letting go and a release.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on April 09, 2018, 06:21:44 AM
Thankyou.  I was very pleased to hear this, especially after my critical remark about Fassbaender upthread (in Das Klagende Lied).  Bought.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 09, 2018, 06:40:09 AM
Quote from: motoboy on March 28, 2018, 04:07:44 AM
Does anyone have a favorite recording of the 3-part Klagende Lied? I have not yet heard the Waldmarchen.

Thanks!

I always thought that the old Boulez 1970's performance of Das Klagende Lied was most excellent.

Waldmaerchen was deleted - despite its marvelous music - because of Mahler's worries about dramatic concision.  By keeping it, the fratricide is repeated an extra time obviously, and so he said good-bye to it.  These days, when we want more Mahler and not less, this decision seems unfortunate, albeit understandable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on April 09, 2018, 06:44:12 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on April 09, 2018, 06:21:44 AM
Thankyou.  I was very pleased to hear this, especially after my critical remark about Fassbaender upthread (in Das Klagende Lied).  Bought.

I hope you enjoy it, do let me know.

Cheers,

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on April 10, 2018, 09:29:17 AM
I did listen to the Celi/Fassbaender Kindertotenlieder and it was much as you described it - unfortunate that the orchestra is somewhat recessed vs the voice, but other than that it's very fine - though I'm no connoisseur of vocal music generally - very broad tempi as you might expect, and the lady in fine voice, certainly preferable to her later Mahler recordings with Chailly.  As you said, the total effect is almost like a symphony.  I didn't download the Strauss.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DkrVjF3sL._SX466_.jpg)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: motoboy on April 10, 2018, 10:12:12 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 09, 2018, 06:40:09 AM
I always thought that the old Boulez 1970's performance of Das Klagende Lied was most excellent.

Waldmaerchen was deleted - despite its marvelous music - because of Mahler's worries about dramatic concision.  By keeping it, the fratricide is repeated an extra time obviously, and so he said good-bye to it.  These days, when we want more Mahler and not less, this decision seems unfortunate, albeit understandable.

Thank you! I see what you mean.

I found that I already had a recording in a big Mahler box with Rattle & and the City of Birmingham. It has not left the car's cd player in a week.

I love finding stuff like this. I was so wrapped up in the symphonies that I neglected the songs until now. It's like growing up and finally reading the appendices in The Return of The King. Delightful, deep and surprising.

I hear Wagner in there, but also bits looking forward even to M10.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 10, 2018, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: motoboy on April 10, 2018, 10:12:12 AM
Thank you! I see what you mean.

I found that I already had a recording in a big Mahler box with Rattle & and the City of Birmingham. It has not left the car's cd player in a week.

I love finding stuff like this. I was so wrapped up in the symphonies that I neglected the songs until now. It's like growing up and finally reading the appendices in The Return of The King. Delightful, deep and surprising.

I hear Wagner in there, but also bits looking forward even to M10.

The Purgatorio of the Tenth owes much to the Lieder!

Let me recommend one of Mahler's greatest songs (from the Rueckert-Lieder): Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen

https://www.youtube.com/v/PoZSJ6q5j_s&list=RDPoZSJ6q5j_s&t=40


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 10, 2018, 11:13:12 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 10, 2018, 10:34:03 AM
The Purgatorio of the Tenth owes much to the Lieder!

It and the rest of part 2 of the Tenth (that is, movements 3-5) are indebted to Das Lied von der Erde in particular.  The obvious link, though, is between the Purgatorio and Das iridische Leben, of course.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 12, 2018, 05:05:02 PM
The sequence of keys in the last part of the Sixth's Andante is a reversal of the last part of the development of the first movement, if you ignore one detail in each case:

1st movement, starting from the midway point of the development to the recapitulation
Eb - B - (g) - a

Andante, starting from about 2/3 of the way through
a - (c#) - B - Eb

The climactic chord in the andante, too, contains the same notes as the climactic chord of the first movement, revoiced to the most dissonant inversion possible (I don't know if I mentioned this here before).  I think it's safe to say that Mahler considered both the scherzo and the andante to be reversals of the first movement's triumphant ending, or reappraisals of it at the least.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 12, 2018, 05:54:57 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 12, 2018, 05:05:02 PM
The sequence of keys in the last part of the Sixth's Andante is a reversal of the last part of the development of the first movement, if you ignore one detail in each case:

1st movement, starting from the midway point of the development to the recapitulation
Eb - B - (g) - a

Andante, starting from about 2/3 of the way through
a - (c#) - B - Eb

The climactic chord in the andante, too, contains the same notes as the climactic chord of the first movement, revoiced to the most dissonant inversion possible (I don't know if I mentioned this here before).  I think it's safe to say that Mahler considered both the scherzo and the andante to be reversals of the first movement's triumphant ending, or reappraisals of it at the least.

The detail need not be ignored, as it is a diminished fifth (cf. also the a to Eb), whose parts are a whole step away from the next key, i.e. from g to a, and c# to B.  Therefore, a parallelism is present.  I vaguely recall reading an analysis many years ago, where such considerations were mentioned.  Many thanks for the comment!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 13, 2018, 09:57:54 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 12, 2018, 05:54:57 PM
The detail need not be ignored, as it is a diminished fifth (cf. also the a to Eb), whose parts are a whole step away from the next key, i.e. from g to a, and c# to B.  Therefore, a parallelism is present.  I vaguely recall reading an analysis many years ago, where such considerations were mentioned.  Many thanks for the comment!

Ah, you're right of course!  Thanks for the correction.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 13, 2018, 01:24:54 PM
I have a question: I've been listening to different versions of Schoenberg's Chamber symphony no 1 and in the second section (track 2 in both Rattle versions) I hear strong echoes of Mahler's 7th symphony, esp. the first Nachtmusik (I think - not absolutely sure).

Any thoughts on that ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 13, 2018, 01:34:22 PM
Quote from: André on April 13, 2018, 01:24:54 PM
I have a question: I've been listening to different versions of Schoenberg's Chamber symphony no 1 and in the second section (track 2 in both Rattle versions) I hear strong echoes of Mahler's 7th symphony, esp. the first Nachtmusik (I think - not absolutely sure).

Any thoughts on that ?

Oh absolutely.  It's a fascinating connection, because Mahler's Seventh hadn't yet been performed in public when Schoenberg's work was written, so if he knew it, it was from the score or from private performances.  You're right, too, in pegging the "scherzo" section of the Schoenberg work, but it's the second Nachtmusik, the "Andante amoroso," where the motif originates.

Other connections between the two works are more tenuous, but both have a strong emphasis on the interval of the perfect fourth, and the chains of fourths found in the first movement of Mahler's symphony find their way into every corner of Schoenberg's.  We do know that Schoenberg loved and admired the Seventh.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 13, 2018, 01:45:06 PM
Gee, thanks for these details, Mahlerian ! Wasn't sure which Nachtmusik, and didn't feel like putting the whole disc to verify.  I knew it couldn't be a coincidence. I mean, these whiffs of the Andante amoroso coming in and out of the orchestral texture are striking once you focus on them, which I had never done before. I like that Schoenberg work, but a friend of mine positively adores it. He made me a cdr with copies of some of the versions he owns. I got to listen to it 3 times in a row  8).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 15, 2018, 02:04:42 AM
I have always thought there was a similarity between Mahler's 7th and Schoenberg's 1st.......nice to know this info, Mahlerian.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 26, 2018, 05:28:54 PM
Can someone please summarize the issue with the Symphony No. 6 inner movement orders?  Why is there so much dispute and what is the general consensus?  Most likely because I first encountered the work this way, the adagio feels better as a third movement because it heightens the contrast with the finale's angst. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 26, 2018, 05:35:23 PM
There is no general consensus. Opinions diverge sharply on the subject. Go for what you actually prefer after listening to the 2 options  :).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 26, 2018, 05:41:35 PM
Quote from: André on April 26, 2018, 05:35:23 PM
There is no general consensus. Opinions diverge sharply on the subject. Go for what you actually prefer after listening to the 2 options  :).

Why did Mahler struggle with this?  I find the Osmo Vanska/Minnesota jarring though a very find interpretation because of the movement order. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 26, 2018, 05:44:49 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 26, 2018, 05:41:35 PM
Why did Mahler struggle with this?  I find the Osmo Vanska/Minnesota jarring though a very find interpretation because of the movement order.

Blame it on perfectionism and self-doubt.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 27, 2018, 12:04:50 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 26, 2018, 05:28:54 PM
Can someone please summarize the issue with the Symphony No. 6 inner movement orders?  Why is there so much dispute and what is the general consensus?  Most likely because I first encountered the work this way, the adagio feels better as a third movement because it heightens the contrast with the finale's angst.

I can. Mahler composed it Scherzo-Adagio. He only ever performed it Adagio-Scherzo. He is subsequently only known to have opted for that latter form (i.e. publishing the parts accordingly).

The resumption of Scherzo-Adagio is based on a mistake and Alma Mahler misremembering and a Mahler Society Editor playing loose with the truth.

There is objective musicological reason to favor Scherzo-Adagio. There is subjective dramatic reason to favor Scherzo-Adagio. (You're onto some of it.) But about the last bit opinions differ. (Ivan Fischer, for example, was open to have it either way and after trying it in concert both ways, several times, he opted for Adagio-Scherzo.)

More details here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html)

If you are a stickler to "last-known-idea-is-definitive" thinking, you have to go Adagio-Scherzo. But if you are inquisitive, there seems to be as much reason to go Scherzo-Adagio as vice-versa ... in which case it comes down to which you deem a more fitting approach. Myself, I am wholly in the Scherzo-Adagio camp.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on April 27, 2018, 12:58:08 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 27, 2018, 12:04:50 AM
I can. Mahler composed it Scherzo-Adagio.

To be clear - do you mean that at the time of composition (or conception) he had an intent to use that order - or is it a simple matter of that being the order in which he wrote the music regardless of the later order of assembly?
Because if the latter - I don't think we can read very much into that, after all you could extend it to say he composed it Scherzo-Adagio-Half of Symphony 7-Finale of 6.

I must say (with Karajan's recording fresh in mind  :) ) that Scherzo first just makes it sound like an extension of the first movement, whether that's good or bad I'm not sure ...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 27, 2018, 01:24:55 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on April 27, 2018, 12:58:08 AM
To be clear - do you mean that at the time of composition (or conception) he had an intent to use that order - or is it a simple matter of that being the order in which he wrote the music regardless of the later order of assembly?

Because if the latter - I don't think we can read very much into that, after all you could extend it to say he composed it Scherzo-Adagio-Half of Symphony 7-Finale of 6.

I must say (with Karajan's recording fresh in mind  :) ) that Scherzo first just makes it sound like an extension of the first movement, whether that's good or bad I'm not sure ...

I meant that it was composed with the intent of the Scherzo being followed by the Adagio. Not just that he happened to compose one movement before another. The musicological analysis, of which I am not capable myself, would back that claim up.


The reason being given for Mahler's change of heart after the GP and before the first performance was that it was suggested to him by people he trusted that the first and second movement were far too similar; that the listeners would respond better to the fast-slow-fast-FINALE structure.*


We think of Mahler having a robust ego, certainly compared to Bruckner. But he wasn't at all that confident about his works as his letters (esp. those to Strauss) reveal. He was very eager to have his works performed and pleased to engage in just about any kind of compromise to give them a start.

*That may be true: but I happen to believe that this is the point of the symphony: A ONE, TWO Blow to the kisser courtesy movements 1 & 2. Then recovery and hope in the Adagio. Then the devestating Finale. What the Scherzo-as-second movement loses following the similar First, the Finale loses trice over, following the Scherzo-as-third.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 27, 2018, 05:59:22 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 27, 2018, 01:24:55 AM
I meant that it was composed with the intent of the Scherzo being followed by the Adagio. Not just that he happened to compose one movement before another. The musicological analysis, of which I am not capable myself, would back that claim up.

Yes.  In fact, it was initially published in that order, before the composer decided to reverse the two movements before the initial performance.  It's a little misleading to talk about "all of the performances" Mahler gave, because the first round was such a flop and the reviews so vitriolic that it's only a slight exaggeration to say that the Sixth Symphony was the straw that broke the camel's back and forced Mahler to leave his job at the Vienna Court Opera.

As for the order the movements were composed in, like several of the other symphonies, the Sixth was composed from the inside out.  The inner movements came first (forget which was the first, probably the Scherzo) then the first movement, then the last, but with the structure already more or less formed in Mahler's mind from the beginning.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 27, 2018, 01:24:55 AMThe reason being given for Mahler's change of heart after the GP and before the first performance was that it was suggested to him by people he trusted that the first and second movement were far too similar; that the listeners would respond better to the fast-slow-fast-FINALE structure.*

*That may be true: but I happen to believe that this is the point of the symphony: A ONE, TWO Blow to the kisser courtesy movements 1 & 2. Then recovery and hope in the Adagio. Then the devestating Finale. What the Scherzo-as-second movement loses following the similar First, the Finale loses trice over, following the Scherzo-as-third.

I think it's helpful to look at the work as being in three parts: the first movement, the inner movements, then the finale.  This way the piece functions whether the scherzo or the andante follows the opening allegro.

The first movement presents a conflict between two types of themes; let's say the strident and the lyrical.  The whole movement inverts the normal dramaturgy of a sonata-allegro form, with the highest tension at the outer points and the lowest tension in the exact center.  In the end, the lyrical theme takes hold, but only by taking on the characteristics of the strident theme.

The two central movements re-examine what just occurred, focusing on separate aspects.  The scherzo takes up the strident theme type and in fact goes over the same harmonic territory as the first movement all over again, with the exception that it ends in wearied collapse.  The tension in this movement more or less stays at a high level.  The andante takes up the lyrical theme type (though actually derived from a more martial sounding passage from the first movement) and takes the key of the lowest point of tension from the first movement as its home.  The development of tension in this movement is something like the first, but less gradual, with mercurial shifts in mood.  The climax near the end marks the point at which the conflicts in the music throughout rise to the surface, and it is resolved with seeming forthrightness before ending in wistful recollections of some of the earlier motifs (the movement's "theme" does not return after the climax).

A tonally ambiguous gesture sets the finale into motion, and its drama stems from constant and almost regular waves of tense striving and uneasy meditation.  The main themes of the movement combine characteristics of both the strident and the lyrical types from the opening allegro, and the finale turns at those points where the orchestral setting becomes most opulent in the Straussian vein.  As with the andante, these will always collapse, and here they do so with violence.  We find that the triumph of the first movement's coda cannot be recaptured and the interior movements pointed towards the ultimate conclusion of the work in defiant destruction.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 27, 2018, 11:16:08 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 26, 2018, 05:28:54 PM
Can someone please summarize the issue with the Symphony No. 6 inner movement orders?  Why is there so much dispute and what is the general consensus?  Most likely because I first encountered the work this way, the adagio feels better as a third movement because it heightens the contrast with the finale's angst. 

m8 you really know how to open a can of worms
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 28, 2018, 03:49:44 AM
 :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on May 16, 2018, 07:16:49 AM
A few days ago my wife and I were driving in Cincinnati, and on I-270 we came across a car with an Ohio license plate displaying...:

Quote
Quote                                    MAHLER 9


We honked and waved and gave a thumbs up!   :D

I once knew a priest (he died some years ago) who said he owned every known recording of Mahler's Ninth and would travel hundreds of miles to hear it played live.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2018, 07:30:17 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 16, 2018, 07:16:49 AM
A few days ago my wife and I were driving in Cincinnati, and on I-270 we came across a car with an Ohio license plate displaying...:



We honked and waved and gave a thumbs up!   :D

I once knew a priest (he died some years ago) who said he owned every known recording of Mahler's Ninth and would travel hundreds of miles to hear it played live.

That's so cool! I'm actually listening to Mahler's 9th as I type this: it's certainly a symphony I'd love to see in concert just to be engulfed into that sound-world.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on May 16, 2018, 11:41:44 PM
I saw Haitink with his CO perform Mahler 9 in London, oooh, 45 years ago.  About the time of his first recording on Philips.  The 'bells' (geat slabs of rough-cast grey metal) towards the end of the first movement were EPIC and so other-worldly.  On some recordings you hardly hear them at all, but live the weird sound they made just got everywhere.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 29, 2018, 06:51:06 AM
What do you guys think about this recording?

[asin]B000056TKE[/asin]

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on May 29, 2018, 07:40:30 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 29, 2018, 06:51:06 AM
What do you guys think about this recording?

[asin]B000056TKE[/asin]

I remember being impressed but it is years since I listened to it. Seems to be the only Mahler that Jochum recorded - he had an experienced Mahler orchestra and soloists (Merriman, at least, not sure about Haefliger).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 29, 2018, 10:50:40 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 29, 2018, 06:51:06 AM
What do you guys think about this recording?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000056TKE.01.L.jpg)

Noble and wonderful!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 29, 2018, 10:58:03 AM
Quote from: Biffo on May 29, 2018, 07:40:30 AM
I remember being impressed but it is years since I listened to it. Seems to be the only Mahler that Jochum recorded - he had an experienced Mahler orchestra and soloists (Merriman, at least, not sure about Haefliger).


Was Merriman an experienced Mahler soloist? Kind of mind boggling that she and Ernst Haefliger recorded this work twice, with the same orchestra no less.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 29, 2018, 03:19:05 PM
Does anyone have any information or could direct me to any resources that discuss the expressive intent of Mahler's style of orchestration?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on May 29, 2018, 05:54:05 PM
Quote from: jessop on May 29, 2018, 03:19:05 PM
Does anyone have any information or could direct me to any resources that discuss the expressive intent of Mahler's style of orchestration?

I've never read any studies of it, though we know that the Second Viennese School certainly learned from his treatment of the orchestra.

As he described it, Mahler's intent was to heighten every single contrast as much as possible, rather than simply to use color in a picturesque way.  So a clarinet could play a trumpet call if a more muted timbre would give the precise nuance he wanted.  Lines are often broken up among various instruments or groups simply as a way of modulating the color and therefore reflecting the complexity of a line more precisely.

Earlier composers had thought of the orchestra primarily in terms of sections, with the winds grouped together, the brass and so on.  Mahler seems to have thought in a very soloistic way, where any color can be used to complement any other, even if it doesn't result in a typically "balanced" combination.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 29, 2018, 05:58:59 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on May 29, 2018, 05:54:05 PM
I've never read any studies of it, though we know that the Second Viennese School certainly learned from his treatment of the orchestra.

As he described it, Mahler's intent was to heighten every single contrast as much as possible, rather than simply to use color in a picturesque way.  So a clarinet could play a trumpet call if a more muted timbre would give the precise nuance he wanted.  Lines are often broken up among various instruments or groups simply as a way of modulating the color and therefore reflecting the complexity of a line more precisely.

Earlier composers had thought of the orchestra primarily in terms of sections, with the winds grouped together, the brass and so on.  Mahler seems to have thought in a very soloistic way, where any color can be used to complement any other, even if it doesn't result in a typically "balanced" combination.

This is interesting and I have noticed that a bit. I am currently looking around for musicologists/theorists who have articles focussed primarily on timbre and articulation in western composition, but they are hard to come by (and also the only advice I have ever received from professors is to just 'look at scores').
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on May 29, 2018, 07:45:19 PM
Quote from: jessop on May 29, 2018, 03:19:05 PM
Does anyone have any information or could direct me to any resources that discuss the expressive intent of Mahler's style of orchestration?

Quote from: jessop on May 29, 2018, 05:58:59 PM
This is interesting and I have noticed that a bit. I am currently looking around for musicologists/theorists who have articles focussed primarily on timbre and articulation in western composition, but they are hard to come by (and also the only advice I have ever received from professors is to just 'look at scores').

Jessop,
I was researching the aspect of orchestration and came across this article:  A much broader perspective, but definitely pondering the issue of orchestration. I certainly found it quite interesting. Have fun!  :P

'SO KLINGT WIEN': CONDUCTORS, ORCHESTRAS, AND VIBRATO IN THE NINETEENTH AND EARLY TWENTIETH CENTURIES (https://classicstoday-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Music-and-Letters-2012-Hurwitz-final.pdf)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 29, 2018, 08:01:46 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on May 29, 2018, 07:45:19 PM
Jessop,
I was researching the aspect of orchestration and came across this article:  A much broader perspective, but definitely pondering the issue of orchestration. I certainly found it quite interesting. Have fun!  :P

'SO KLINGT WIEN': CONDUCTORS, ORCHESTRAS, AND VIBRATO IN THE NINETEENTH AND EARLY TWENTIETH CENTURIES (https://classicstoday-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Music-and-Letters-2012-Hurwitz-final.pdf)


Ah, this I do know, but it's also relevant to Mahler as a composer-conductor.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on July 15, 2018, 09:53:24 AM
Having listened to all of the Mahler symphonies again (including Das Lied von der Erde of course, and even Das klagende Lied because I love it, don't question my decision to include it...) I find myself so puzzled by the 10th again. Make no mistake, I'm a huge fan of the work and have no objections with it being performed. But it is such a strange piece! I really feel like it stands a world apart from Mahler's earlier output, even though it's unmistakably his work and there are obvious connections to some of this previous pieces. Does this make any sense? Maybe it doesn't have to. And it's not like I'm not puzzled by the 9th as well!

Meanwhile, my appreciation of Das Lied von der Erde is exponentially growing. It really is a piece for a lifetime! I think the last movement might be my favourite movement out of everything that Mahler wrote.

I am humbled, overwhelmed and moved to the core by this man's stunning achievement as a musician, as an artist. What a privilege it is to be able to listen to this music!

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 15, 2018, 10:25:38 AM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on July 15, 2018, 09:53:24 AM

I find myself so puzzled by the 10th again. Make no mistake, I'm a huge fan of the work and have no objections with it being performed. But it is such a strange piece! I really feel like it stands a world apart from Mahler's earlier output, even though it's unmistakably his work and there are obvious connections to some of this previous pieces. Does this make any sense? Maybe it doesn't have to. And it's not like I'm not puzzled by the 9th as well!

Meanwhile, my appreciation of Das Lied von der Erde is exponentially growing. It really is a piece for a lifetime! I think the last movement might be my favourite movement out of everything that Mahler wrote.

I am humbled, overwhelmed and moved to the core by this man's stunning achievement as a musician, as an artist. What a privilege it is to be able to listen to this music!

Both the Ninth and Tenth Symphonies show certain possible paths into the future: the extension of dissonance (of course, one finds that in late Bruckner in the 1890's, in works of Scriabin (e.g. the last 4 piano sonatas) and Richard Strauss (e.g. Elektra) and Schoenberg's early works), fragmented motifs, a tendency toward a chant-like simplicity, seemingly unusual juxtapositions which, nevertheless, are integrated well into the work.

We do live in wonderful times concerning recorded music: our machines give us the ability to hear so much, which normally would have been available only to those (with some money) in large cities with orchestras.  The alternative was piano reductions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 15, 2018, 04:28:57 PM
When you mention 10th, one must clarify if they are referring to the first movement or the complete score presumably from Cooke III?  I regard Cooke III as a first draft of what Mahler intended given that he was prone to frequent revisions however it is a significant draft of the intent and shouldn't be disguarded.  I really hate when "complete" cycles omit Cooke III considering it incomplete since there is so much significant music composed and none of the variants differ all that much so there is pretty much clarity on what Mahler intended. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on July 15, 2018, 06:54:40 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 15, 2018, 04:28:57 PM
When you mention 10th, one must clarify if they are referring to the first movement or the complete score presumably from Cooke III?  I regard Cooke III as a first draft of what Mahler intended given that he was prone to frequent revisions however it is a significant draft of the intent and shouldn't be disguarded.

He was prone to frequent revisions of his work, but in his maturity, these never concerned structure (not after he wrote out a complete continuity draft as here).  We can assume that if his normal practice had been followed in the case of the Tenth, its structure would remain unchanged from the version he left us.

If we want to be precise, we can say that the Ninth and Das Lied von der Erde are first drafts, given that we know for a fact that Mahler's normal practice was to test the work in orchestral performance, make revisions, and then perform it in a more refined version.

Quote from: relm1 on July 15, 2018, 04:28:57 PMI really hate when "complete" cycles omit Cooke III considering it incomplete since there is so much significant music composed and none of the variants differ all that much so there is pretty much clarity on what Mahler intended.

The Tenth as we have it is a fascinating work, and it's Mahler's own work as well (with the exception of the Carpenter version, of course).  There's too much wonderful music in there to discard the whole thing, and even though the composer wished it destroyed, we should be grateful to Alma for disregarding her husband's wishes once more.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on July 16, 2018, 02:12:24 AM
I get on most with the Wheeler version, mainly because it doesn't have the excessive percussion writing other versions seem to revel in. But really I don't find any of the completions/performing versions/whatever satisfying, it just doesn't sound like Mahler somehow. Having worked with the first scherzo a couple of years back I know that it is Mahler, of course, but the realisations have been curiosities at best for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 16, 2018, 05:00:23 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 15, 2018, 04:28:57 PM
When you mention 10th, one must clarify if they are referring to the first movement or the complete score presumably from Cooke III?  I regard Cooke III as a first draft of what Mahler intended given that he was prone to frequent revisions however it is a significant draft of the intent and shouldn't be disregarded. I really hate when "complete" cycles omit Cooke III considering it incomplete since there is so much significant music composed and none of the variants differ all that much so there is pretty much clarity on what Mahler intended.

Quote from: Mahlerian on July 15, 2018, 06:54:40 PM
He was prone to frequent revisions of his work, but in his maturity, these never concerned structure (not after he wrote out a complete continuity draft as here).  We can assume that if his normal practice had been followed in the case of the Tenth, its structure would remain unchanged from the version he left us.

If we want to be precise, we can say that the Ninth and Das Lied von der Erde are first drafts, given that we know for a fact that Mahler's normal practice was to test the work in orchestral performance, make revisions, and then perform it in a more refined version.

The Tenth as we have it is a fascinating work, and it's Mahler's own work as well (with the exception of the Carpenter version, of course).  There's too much wonderful music in there to discard the whole thing, and even though the composer wished it destroyed, we should be grateful to Alma for disregarding her husband's wishes once more.

Yes, the orchestration is what Mahler would most probably have tinkered with, rather than any recomposition of the work.

And yes again, the work is complete "enough" for Cooke's performing versions (III being the last word) to be considered valid and part of the canon.

Quote from: Crudblud on July 16, 2018, 02:12:24 AM
I get on most with the Wheeler version, mainly because it doesn't have the excessive percussion writing other versions seem to revel in. But really I don't find any of the completions/performing versions/whatever satisfying, it just doesn't sound like Mahler somehow. Having worked with the first scherzo a couple of years back I know that it is Mahler, of course, but the realisations have been curiosities at best for me.


Mahler
was changing: the Mahler of the Ninth is not the Mahler of the Fourth.  Although...the inclusion of the Purgatorio movement - right in the middle! -  of the Tenth has always intrigued me, as if Mahler were reminding himself and his listeners of his origins, and that the outer movements have their origins, their souls, in the little Third Movement, and emanate therefrom.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on July 16, 2018, 07:42:00 AM
Of course Mahler was changing, I know well enough that from one work to the next I have grown as a composer. But something in these realisations is missing, it is not 100% Mahler—therein lies my difficulty. Of course it is good music, but it will forever be incomplete. I also have to imagine that, since even the oldest realisations are "new" compared to the works that were completed in Mahler's lifetime, and the reluctance or refusal of many conductors to bother with them at all, a real performing tradition for the 10th has yet to be established. Perhaps things will get better in the decades to come.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on July 27, 2018, 07:06:25 AM
I've known Mahler's symphonies for over 10 years now, but I'm still spotting new things about them. Like today, it's only just clicked with me how Mahler uses a very similar motif in No. 6 (opening bars), No. 7 (main theme of 1st movt.), and No. 8 (again at the beginning, "Veni, veni creator...")
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 27, 2018, 07:29:19 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on July 16, 2018, 07:42:00 AM
something in these realisations is missing, it is not 100% Mahler

Everyone has their own sliding scale of where a realisation/completion is effective/valid/chimes with one's own feelings towards a composer and work or not.  So wholly subjectively for me:

Mahler 10 - works
Bruckner 9 - doesn't work (probably for the illogical reason that the end of the existing 3rd movement seems destined for eternity anyway)
Elgar 3 - works
Moeran 2 - really doesn't work

and others I can't immediately think of.......!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 27, 2018, 08:59:53 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 27, 2018, 07:29:19 AM
Everyone has their own sliding scale of where a realisation/completion is effective/valid/chimes with one's own feelings towards a composer and work or not.  So wholly subjectively for me:

Mahler 10 - works
Bruckner 9 - doesn't work (probably for the illogical reason that the end of the existing 3rd movement seems destined for eternity anyway)
Elgar 3 - works
Moeran 2 - really doesn't work

and others I can't immediately think of.......!

For the Bruckner Ninth completion done by the quartet of musicologists, I feel that the final movement is at least complementary to the preceding three.  If it does not surpass the Adagio, the movement contains enough drama and surprises to punch the ears.  The final bars - at least in the Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic performance - are quite convincing and satisfying.

Mahler's Tenth via Deryck Cooke has always sounded fine to me, ever since I first obtained a copy of the score c. 1970.  0:)  But I do understand those who cannot find an attachment to both works.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on July 27, 2018, 09:23:36 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 27, 2018, 07:06:25 AMI've known Mahler's symphonies for over 10 years now, but I'm still spotting new things about them. Like today, it's only just clicked with me how Mahler uses a very similar motif in No. 6 (opening bars), No. 7 (main theme of 1st movt.), and No. 8 (again at the beginning, "Veni, veni creator...")

Mahler certainly did like those descending octaves. 

Quote from: Cato on July 27, 2018, 08:59:53 AMFor the Bruckner Ninth completion done by the quartet of musicologists, I feel that the final movement is at least complementary to the preceding three.  If it does not surpass the Adagio, the movement contains enough drama and surprises to punch the ears.  The final bars - at least in the Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic performance - are quite convincing and satisfying.

I don't really like that recording too much, though I'm prepared to believe that the problem I have is with Rattle's performance.  I didn't like his Mahler Tenth with Berlin either, and that was the first version of that work that I listened to.  It took hearing others' treatment of the score to be convinced by it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on July 27, 2018, 11:15:03 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 27, 2018, 08:59:53 AM
For the Bruckner Ninth completion done by the quartet of musicologists, I feel that the final movement is at least complementary to the preceding three.  If it does not surpass the Adagio, the movement contains enough drama and surprises to punch the ears.  The final bars - at least in the Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic performance - are quite convincing and satisfying.

Mahler's Tenth via Deryck Cooke has always sounded fine to me, ever since I first obtained a copy of the score c. 1970.  0:)  But I do understand those who cannot find an attachment to both works.

I'm getting used to the B9 with a finale, although I'm still not convinced that what is currently on offer (any of the completions) is on the same level as the first 3 movements. IOW despite appreciating its strong brucknerian traits, I feel let down slightly, which is disappointing. Had Bruckner finished the recap and coda and left, say, sketches only for the development, it might be a different story.

As for the M10, I do like it, but in this case it's the textures/harmonies/orchestration that sow doubt. After the Adagio first movement I always feel the rest sounds, shall I say, skeletal...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 27, 2018, 04:21:03 PM
Quote from: André on July 27, 2018, 11:15:03 AM
I'm getting used to the B9 with a finale, although I'm still not convinced that what is currently on offer (any of the completions) is on the same level as the first 3 movements. IOW despite appreciating its strong brucknerian traits, I feel let down slightly, which is disappointing. Had Bruckner finished the recap and coda and left, say, sketches only for the development, it might be a different story.

As for the M10, I do like it, but in this case it's the textures/harmonies/orchestration that sow doubt. After the Adagio first movement I always feel the rest sounds, shall I say, skeletal...

I really agree with you but the judgement shouldn't be based on "is this what Mahler would have written had he lived" but rather "is what we are left with of substantial quality that it deserves to be preserved as his intentions even if they were a first draft" given that he was a superb composer, I would side on yes.  Cooke III is the best we have of what Mahler wanted given we don't have Mahler's fully envisioned version and it deserves to be heard.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 27, 2018, 11:58:46 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 27, 2018, 07:29:19 AM
Everyone has their own sliding scale of where a realisation/completion is effective/valid/chimes with one's own feelings towards a composer and work or not.  So wholly subjectively for me:

Mahler 10 - works
Bruckner 9 - doesn't work (probably for the illogical reason that the end of the existing 3rd movement seems destined for eternity anyway)
Elgar 3 - works
Moeran 2 - really doesn't work

and others I can't immediately think of.......!

Bruckner 9 doesn't QUITE work, but it's important and it works for the 3rd movement -- precisely to demystify this "destined for eternity" nonsense. :-)
Mahler 10 works like a dream; my favorite being Barshai's completion; it takes risks and succeeds.
Elgar 3... oiks. However -- compared to the Elgar Piano Concerto, which decidedly does not work, I suppose it could be said to work.
Moeran 2nd is now on my explore-list.
Puccini's Turandot works, obviously.
As does Berg's Lulu, in either version I know.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 28, 2018, 05:49:13 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 27, 2018, 11:58:46 PM
Bruckner 9 doesn't QUITE work, but it's important and it works for the 3rd movement -- precisely to demystify this "destined for eternity" nonsense. :-)
Mahler 10 works like a dream; my favorite being Barshai's completion; it takes risks and succeeds.
Elgar 3... oiks. However -- compared to the Elgar Piano Concerto, which decidedly does not work, I suppose it could be said to work.
Moeran 2nd is now on my explore-list.
Puccini's Turandot works, obviously.
As does Berg's Lulu, in either version I know.

Which recording of Barshai's orchestration of 10 do you recommend?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 29, 2018, 04:42:01 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 28, 2018, 05:49:13 AM
Which recording of Barshai's orchestration of 10 do you recommend?

I believe there is only his, but happily it is not just my favorite for the version but also the playing.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-2.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on July 29, 2018, 09:20:07 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 29, 2018, 04:42:01 AM
I believe there is only his, but happily it is not just my favorite for the version but also the playing.

There is also Ashkenazy conducting the Sydney Symphony Orchestra, a recording from 2012. I haven't heard it myself, but just thought to let you know!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on July 29, 2018, 10:30:37 AM
Listening to Mahler 1 currently (CBSO/Rattle), and I always feel like the first movement never really gets into full stride. It starts slowly and then begins to accelerate, but never feels like it has reached full speed. It's in a constant state of acceleration, if that makes any sense.

Meanwhile, I've literally just now noticed how similar the main theme of the 2nd movement is to the theme blared out by the brass in the middle of the scherzo of Symphony No. 2.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on July 29, 2018, 10:52:31 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 29, 2018, 10:30:37 AM
Listening to Mahler 1 currently (CBSO/Rattle), and I always feel like the first movement never really gets into full stride. It starts slowly and then begins to accelerate, but never feels like it has reached full speed. It's in a constant state of acceleration, if that makes any sense.

I think that Mahler was going for an effect of alternating stasis and animation.  Tonally, too, the movement spends most of its time in the environment of D minor and major, and the development section, which unusually begins by returning to the tonality as well as the atmosphere of the introduction, only really starts moving quite late into the movement.

If I could speculate, I think that Mahler wants the first movement to not gain too much internal momentum so that its conflicts can be resolved later with the finale (which recapitulates large chunks of the first movement).

Quote from: Maestro267 on July 29, 2018, 10:30:37 AMMeanwhile, I've literally just now noticed how similar the main theme of the 2nd movement is to the theme blared out by the brass in the middle of the scherzo of Symphony No. 2.

Yeah, they're both triadic horn call figures of a pretty standard type.  I think the scherzo of the Second is a much more interesting movement, though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 29, 2018, 12:14:14 PM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on July 29, 2018, 09:20:07 AM
There is also Ashkenazy conducting the Sydney Symphony Orchestra, a recording from 2012. I haven't heard it myself, but just thought to let you know!

Oh, yes, I had not realized that before. Thanks much for pointing it out!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bwv 1080 on August 02, 2018, 07:54:47 AM
Think I may have posted some of this before, but Jazz pianist Uri Caine has done two albums of Mahler arrangements that often reveal some of the roots of the music, for example here is the Funeral March from the 5th Symphony done by a Klemzer band

https://www.youtube.com/v/urtnR6iFDpE

and the march from the first symphony

https://www.youtube.com/v/x3efe-G2mxo
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on August 04, 2018, 06:37:11 PM
This recording of the 10th is quite an experience:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71OzOZmv76L._SX569_PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)

The Musicweb reviewer was moved to write at great length on it, going so far as getting a score of Ganzou's realization to fully understand the conductor's intent:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Nov/Mahler_sy10_WER51222.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Nov/Mahler_sy10_WER51222.htm)

In his own writing on the work Ganzou states that we'll never know how the work would have sounded, therefore any realization is a matter of conjecture. It does at times sound wild and garish, but I'd rather have that than the 'skeletal' impression I have alluded to in another post.

This performance is a one-off and, as Marc Bridle (Musicweb) correctly states, « a performance today would no doubt sound very different ». My own reaction throughout was one of awe and total adherence. I was sucked in the listening experience as I rarely am. When listening to a performance of the 10th I usually have the feeling of watching a documentary. It was emphatically not the case here. Recorded in concert at the Philharmonie, Berlin. With the sound turned up, the impact was tremendous.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on August 07, 2018, 01:15:38 PM
Thank you Andre, I had no idea of this version. I have ordered it as it sounds fascinating.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on August 07, 2018, 01:24:55 PM
Noting this with great interest as well. "Wild and garish" in this case might be pluses.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 07, 2018, 02:21:18 PM
Quote from: André on August 04, 2018, 06:37:11 PM
This recording of the 10th is quite an experience:

Quote from: knight66 on August 07, 2018, 01:15:38 PM
Thank you Andre, I had no idea of this version. I have ordered it as it sounds fascinating.

Yes, thank you for uncovering this M10. I've also ordered it (although I have doubts it will eclipse Cooke/Levine).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on August 07, 2018, 03:29:53 PM
Geez, I feel some heat...  8)


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 22, 2018, 02:50:25 PM
I'm sure one of you will be able to answer this question.

My first recording of Das Lied was a cassette bought around 1982 from one of those budget labels of the time. The only thing i remember about it was that the cover was black with white lettering and some red.

Can anyone tell me the performers?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on August 22, 2018, 03:12:34 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 22, 2018, 02:50:25 PM
I'm sure one of you will be able to answer this question.

My first recording of Das Lied was a cassette bought around 1982 from one of those budget labels of the time. The only thing i remember about it was that the cover was black with white lettering and some red.

Can anyone tell me the performers?

Best I can do is send you to this list.  Hopefully one of the covers looks familiar:
http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/daslied.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 22, 2018, 04:11:20 PM
Quote from: André on August 04, 2018, 06:37:11 PM
This recording of the 10th is quite an experience:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71OzOZmv76L._SX569_PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)

The Musicweb reviewer was moved to write at great length on it, going so far as getting a score of Ganzou's realization to fully understand the conductor's intent:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Nov/Mahler_sy10_WER51222.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Nov/Mahler_sy10_WER51222.htm)

In his own writing on the work Ganzou states that we'll never know how the work would have sounded, therefore any realization is a matter of conjecture. It does at times sound wild and garish, but I'd rather have that than the 'skeletal' impression I have alluded to in another post.

This performance is a one-off and, as Marc Bridle (Musicweb) correctly states, « a performance today would no doubt sound very different ». My own reaction throughout was one of awe and total adherence. I was sucked in the listening experience as I rarely am. When listening to a performance of the 10th I usually have the feeling of watching a documentary. It was emphatically not the case here. Recorded in concert at the Philharmonie, Berlin. With the sound turned up, the impact was tremendous.

I found this online and am listening now.  Not convinced it is special but holding out hope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe3spGupjro
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on August 23, 2018, 05:22:59 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 22, 2018, 02:50:25 PM
I'm sure one of you will be able to answer this question.

My first recording of Das Lied was a cassette bought around 1982 from one of those budget labels of the time. The only thing i remember about it was that the cover was black with white lettering and some red.

Can anyone tell me the performers?

Google image searching and discogs suggest this Klemperer version as a slight possibility. https://www.discogs.com/master/view/529369

Because:

1. Discogs records it as having being released in Australia on World Record Club/World Cassette Club on a couple of occasions in the 1970s, and

2. At least some issues of the recording would fit your description. However it's difficult to tell because these things get reissues SO many times in so many covers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2018, 01:07:35 PM
Quote from: Madiel on August 23, 2018, 05:22:59 AM
Google image searching and discogs suggest this Klemperer version as a slight possibility. https://www.discogs.com/master/view/529369

Because:

1. Discogs records it as having being released in Australia on World Record Club/World Cassette Club on a couple of occasions in the 1970s, and

2. At least some issues of the recording would fit your description. However it's difficult to tell because these things get reissues SO many times in so many covers.

It might have been that one, but I should have said that in 1982 I was located in the UK. I know these recordings get repackaged when reissued, but there haven't been that many recordings of DLvdE, or there hadn't by 1982. I'm surprised myself that a google image search didn't bring up the image.

Perhaps this is the question to ask, in the early 1980s in the UK there were two budget classical labels, one was Classics for Pleasure (and the recording I have in mind wasn't the CfP Gibson recording) and there was another one, can anyone remind me what it was called?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on August 23, 2018, 01:19:27 PM
Not one of these, was it?


George Solti, Lied von der Erde,  Chicago Symphony, René Kollo, Yvonne Minton

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/SBsAAOSwY71ZtJ7D/s-l640.jpg)

(http://www.soundfountain.eu/mahler/lied-mahler-minton-kollo-solti-decca_500.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/21KGGmg38yL.jpg) (http://a-fwd.to/7GZSfKo)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 12:10:39 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2018, 01:07:35 PM
It might have been that one, but I should have said that in 1982 I was located in the UK. I know these recordings get repackaged when reissued, but there haven't been that many recordings of DLvdE, or there hadn't by 1982. I'm surprised myself that a google image search didn't bring up the image.

Perhaps this is the question to ask, in the early 1980s in the UK there were two budget classical labels, one was Classics for Pleasure (and the recording I have in mind wasn't the CfP Gibson recording) and there was another one, can anyone remind me what it was called?

One of the other bargain lables was Ace of Clubs and it was owned by Decca, but I don't recall any Das Lied and the obvious candidate, Ferrier/Walter was kept as a premium recording for decades. The BBC went through a phase of issuing live recordings at bargain price. They had a Leppard Das Lied with Janet Baker. I don't know whether they ever issued cassettes.

All the big lables had cheap offshoots. But as you don't recall any names from the version you had, I don't suppose looking at the big name catalogue listings will ring bells.

Mike


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 12:18:18 AM
Quote from: André on August 04, 2018, 06:37:11 PM
This recording of the 10th is quite an experience:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71OzOZmv76L._SX569_PJautoripBadge,BottomRight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg)

The Musicweb reviewer was moved to write at great length on it, going so far as getting a score of Ganzou's realization to fully understand the conductor's intent:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Nov/Mahler_sy10_WER51222.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Nov/Mahler_sy10_WER51222.htm)

In his own writing on the work Ganzou states that we'll never know how the work would have sounded, therefore any realization is a matter of conjecture. It does at times sound wild and garish, but I'd rather have that than the 'skeletal' impression I have alluded to in another post.

This performance is a one-off and, as Marc Bridle (Musicweb) correctly states, « a performance today would no doubt sound very different ». My own reaction throughout was one of awe and total adherence. I was sucked in the listening experience as I rarely am. When listening to a performance of the 10th I usually have the feeling of watching a documentary. It was emphatically not the case here. Recorded in concert at the Philharmonie, Berlin. With the sound turned up, the impact was tremendous.


Got it and listened yesterday. It certainly tests the HiFi system with the extremes of dynamics. I could barely hear the opening, then almost blew the windows out. I need to get better acquainted with it. Although I enjoyed that first run through, I was not keen on the much repeated thwacking of the bass drum.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 12:26:26 AM
As an aside, tonight i will be in chorus for piano rehearsals of the Mahler 8 with Daniel Harding. I think he has only conducted it twice before. His first performance was live streamed and I felt quite encouraged, as he allowed the music to breathe without it becoming sluggush. I am looking forward to it. Orchestral rehearsals are on Sat/Sun, with the performance closing the Edinburgh Festival on Sunday evening.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 24, 2018, 06:41:04 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 12:26:26 AM
As an aside, tonight i will be in chorus for piano rehearsals of the Mahler 8 with Daniel Harding. I think he has only conducted it twice before. His first performance was live streamed and I felt quite encouraged, as he allowed the music to breathe without it becoming sluggush. I am looking forward to it. Orchestral rehearsals are on Sat/Sun, with the performance closing the Edinburgh Festival on Sunday evening.

Mike

What's it like to play that work with such a massive orchestra on stage in front of you and with such thunderous volumes?  I imagine you can't hear the chorus, only the immediate members near you.  I play bass trombone and on large loud works, I can see the strings giving it their all but only hear myself and the instrument next to me, plus percussion if we are at fff or above.  All other instruments get drowned out.  Of course in the concert hall where the audience is, the various tone will blend.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on August 24, 2018, 06:41:52 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 12:26:26 AM
As an aside, tonight i will be in chorus for piano rehearsals of the Mahler 8 with Daniel Harding. I think he has only conducted it twice before. His first performance was live streamed and I felt quite encouraged, as he allowed the music to breathe without it becoming sluggush. I am looking forward to it. Orchestral rehearsals are on Sat/Sun, with the performance closing the Edinburgh Festival on Sunday evening.

Mike

Best of luck to all of you!

I'm going to be attending a performance of the Third this evening.  Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 08:05:55 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 24, 2018, 06:41:04 AM
What's it like to play that work with such a massive orchestra on stage in front of you and with such thunderous volumes?  I imagine you can't hear the chorus, only the immediate members near you.  I play bass trombone and on large loud works, I can see the strings giving it their all but only hear myself and the instrument next to me, plus percussion if we are at fff or above.  All other instruments get drowned out.  Of course in the concert hall where the audience is, the various tone will blend.

Years ago in Milan I was singing in a Berlioz Requiem for Gary Bertini. I was right behind the timps. There were 10 or 11 sets of them and when they got going it was like a curtain of sound blotting everything out and making the air crackle. It made me shake with the astonishing energy in the air which felt the air was moving.

One trumpet can cover an entire chorus if the player is determined. In the Mahler you generally hear quite a lot, as much of it is filligre. Also, what is probably difficult to detect, a lot of phrasing pulls one line of the chorus out of the textures while the others merge volume in support. Usually the writing is such that we can hear the soprano soloists and the tenor.

Last week I could not hear the harp or the cellos in the Ravel, even when I could see them.

There are areas in the Mahler where we are going hell for leather and the conductor has so much to control that we have to listen for one another and keep absolutely in synch with the other sections. It is written in two choirs, but even with the size of choir we have, probably 150 plus kids, we patch other parts. I am mainly 1st bass 1st choir and patch the second choir bases and second tenors, plus my choir second tenors.....it all gets quite complicatedto follow at speed.

Tonight is our special time with the conductor, the piano rehearsal where all kinds of detail is nourished: then from tomorrow we have to balance up to be heard, so many subtleties have to be junked.

This week we did the Dvorak Requiem with Jakub Hrusa. He is the first for a very long time who controlled his orchestra to permit us to sing to the markings in the score, it was quite an experience. It was also very taxing to sing so much pp and ppp on the voice, but so very quietly. He is working increasingly in the US, I urge you to watch out for him, he is special.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 08:08:30 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on August 24, 2018, 06:41:52 AM
Best of luck to all of you!

I'm going to be attending a performance of the Third this evening.  Looking forward to it.

Thanks.....is that Nelsons' Mahler? If so, then I am especially jealous. I used to travel to Birmingham, (England), when he was there to catch as much of his work as I could.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on August 24, 2018, 08:12:52 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 08:08:30 AM
Thanks.....is that Nelsons' Mahler? If so, then I am especially jealous. I used to travel to Birmingham, (England), when he was there to catch as much of his work as I could.

Mike

Yes; Andris Nelsons conducting, with Susan Graham as the mezzo soloist.  I've been hearing the BSO play Mahler at Tanglewood for years now, and it's always been a great experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 08:16:03 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on August 24, 2018, 08:12:52 AM
Yes; Andris Nelsons conducting, with Susan Graham as the mezzo soloist.  I've been hearing the BSO play Mahler at Tanglewood for years now, and it's always been a great experience.

I am sure it will be terrific. I did one tour of the summer venues of the US orchestras, but unfortunately not Tanglewood.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on August 25, 2018, 11:24:57 AM
Quote from: knight66 on August 24, 2018, 08:16:03 AM
I am sure it will be terrific. I did one tour of the summer venues of the US orchestras, but unfortunately not Tanglewood.

Mike

The concert was wonderful.  The Koussevitzky Shed was only about half full, but there were lots of people on the lawn as well, which was enough to make the traffic a huge mess when driving out.

Write-up will be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on August 27, 2018, 09:22:30 AM
Last Thursday I heard my first ever live Mahler 8th - it was a magnificent experience, something I will treasure for the rest of my life. It is a truly stunning work. Hannu Lintu conducted the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, with an army of choirs and soloists. Amazing!

What a great start for the season, during which the orchestra will play all of the symphonies except Das Lied von der Erde and the performance edition of the 10th (they will only do the Adagio). I already have tickets for the 1st, the 3rd, the 4th and the 6th. The rest will follow in the spring...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on August 27, 2018, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on August 25, 2018, 11:24:57 AM
The concert was wonderful.  The Koussevitzky Shed was only about half full, but there were lots of people on the lawn as well, which was enough to make the traffic a huge mess when driving out.

Write-up will be forthcoming.

I'm positively green with envy - the Third is my favorite Mahler symphony. I've never heard any Mahler performed in concert - IIRC my local orchestra performed the First a year or two ago, but I wasn't able to attend.

Looking forward to the review!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on August 28, 2018, 06:05:13 PM
Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on August 27, 2018, 09:22:30 AM
Last Thursday I heard my first ever live Mahler 8th - it was a magnificent experience, something I will treasure for the rest of my life. It is a truly stunning work. Hannu Lintu conducted the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, with an army of choirs and soloists. Amazing!

What a great start for the season, during which the orchestra will play all of the symphonies except Das Lied von der Erde and the performance edition of the 10th (they will only do the Adagio). I already have tickets for the 1st, the 3rd, the 4th and the 6th. The rest will follow in the spring...

How great. The Eighth live is quite an experience, and it sounds like you got a good one!

And if this is an example, you have a fun year ahead. 😁

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on September 08, 2018, 07:41:22 PM
Played this DVD tonight.
[asin]B071V61TRG[/asin]
The Chorus Mysticus was a tad too quick for my taste, but all around a very good performance. Much better than his earlier DVD with the Gewandhaus.
Apparently it can be viewed on YouTube.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2018, 09:14:47 PM
Entire performance of Teodor Currentzis and SWR Symphonieorchester performing Mahler's 3rd on YouTube from a concert last month...

Edit: I also notice several microphones, perhaps a recording was made for a future release?

https://www.youtube.com/v/xyAkS-9wRPc
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2018, 10:07:51 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 05, 2018, 09:14:47 PM
Entire performance of Teodor Currentzis and SWR Symphonieorchester performing Mahler's 3rd on YouTube from a concert last month...

Edit: I also notice several microphones, perhaps a recording was made for a future release?

https://www.youtube.com/v/xyAkS-9wRPc

The SWR is a Radio orchestra - its performances are always taped for broadcast.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2018, 03:06:52 AM
Mania, is right!  0:)

A concert-goer rustled a bag of gum during a Mahler symphony. A 'violent attack' ensued. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/22/concert-goer-rustled-bag-gum-during-mahler-symphony-violent-attack-ensued/?utm_term=.f16e0ce0284b)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 27, 2018, 12:57:43 AM
A radio interview (sound quality is sketchy, alas) about Mahler's 8th, aimed at the casual listener / Mahler-novice.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds2U_54XcAEiHTY.png)
Church and Culture – November 24, 2018 – Hour 2 – Deal Hudson and Jens F. Laurson introduce Mahler's 8th Symphony, 'The Symphony of a Thousand'

https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-november-24-2018-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR2n3nEUqHf6y9wmR_Jc1fXbcF05_eBe2r7YBctpwCAGSTbVX0dm2AcTGP0 (https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-november-24-2018-hour-2/?fbclid=IwAR2n3nEUqHf6y9wmR_Jc1fXbcF05_eBe2r7YBctpwCAGSTbVX0dm2AcTGP0)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 28, 2018, 06:15:47 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61LUrWp8chL._SX569_.jpg)

Listened to the Currentzis version this afternoon - once only. Paul (Springrite) did it twice, back to back. :)

Some specifics first: issued on a single disc of nearly 85 minutes. Great job, Sony ! The first movement repeat is observed, and the order of the middle movements is scherzo/andante. 2 hammerblows of the 'standard' kind - no custom built special machine à la Zander.

The orchestra is a large one, with a string complement of 18/18/17/16/11 - the orchestra members are listed in the booklet, so I would assume that all are playing. The winds and brass numbers are slightly augmented: an extra flute, oboe, bassoon and horn are listed. Currentzis employs 4 harps. The score demands 2, « reinforced in IV ». All told, 111 musicians plus the conductor.

The engineering sounds superlative, with the huge forces cleanly caught in a recording of great amplitude and nice spatial depth. More kudos to the Sony team.

I listened to this interpretation with great interest and satisfaction. There is quite a bit of tempo adjustments in the first movement, but it sounds natural  most of the time. The only exception which bothered me a bit was toward the end when the music seems to agonize and suddenly lurches forward with powerful fff brass pronouncements. It's much too fast and some power is lost due to the rushed tempo. Compare with Barbirolli, who is much more imposing and menacing, allowing the low brass to fill the soundstage with terrific lung power.

That being said, it is the only miscalculation I could reproach. You can't really blame Currentzis for not being Barbirolli. The scherzo is expertly played, alternating grimacing energy and playfulness. The andante is perfectly paced and finds a perfect balance between yearning and sadness, passion and repose. Especially noteworthy is the orchestra's transparency even in the most thickly orchestrated passages. I usually find that the sound saturates and loses definition in that movement's episodes of heavy breathing. Not so here. This is masterful conducting. I found the sound of the cowbells slightly disappointing: not distant enough and not bell-like, with a hint of the tinny and metallic.

The finale is where Currentzis may seem a wee bit controversial, as one might expect storms of sound and fury but find instead perfectly controlled (fast) tempi, and normal balances (no spotlighting from the engineers or italicizing from the conductor). Personally I found it gripping and very satisfying in its refusal to overplay this orchestral leviathan. As I mentioned the hammerblows are not heart-stopping and show-stealing moments. Momentum is strictly maintained. I really like the way Currentzis keeps the strings whizzing like a demented swarm of bees, spending all energy before running out of gas at the end. Wonderful concluding brass chorale. The final chords do not sound apoplectic so much as a last gasp from the dying beast.

I can understand that one may feel the performance too controlled, at risk of sounding micromanaged and lacking a bit in spontaneity. But I 'clicked' with the conductor's agenda and stayed aboard for the whole journey. I can only admire the level of excellence on display here. My favourite 6ths remain Barbirolli and Zander, with Farberman and Currentzis not far behind.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 14, 2018, 01:39:31 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zY6j7-9lL.jpg)

Listened to Macal's version of the 7th symphony today. A good interpretation, very well executed and recorded. I found Macal's view too horizontal for this to work for me. He is more concerned with the narrative and symphonic development than the incidentals, the weird colours and rythms, the fireworks display of the 7th. I may be wrong, but I like to think of the 7th as Mahler's cubist symphony. Not like Picasso (too blocky) but more like Juan Gris with his detail-packed, colourful canvases.

At this point I have not really elected a favourite version of the 7th. I don't listen to it all that often, maybe once every second year. Not enough to remember everything from the other versions when I listen to one. So I'm always going back to square one, unable to pinpoint a favourite.

What version do GMGers recommend ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on December 14, 2018, 03:02:55 PM
For me you asking the easiest question in Mahler discography.
Abbado/BPO

It's all the other symphonies that I have no clear favorite for. (Well, the Ninth I have several favorites.)

I am btw just started with that Sanderling BerlinSO trio, DLvdE first up to bat.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 14, 2018, 03:34:35 PM
Quote from: JBS on December 14, 2018, 03:02:55 PM
For me you asking the easiest question in Mahler discography.
Abbado/BPO

It's all the other symphonies that I have no clear favorite for. (Well, the Ninth I have several favorites.)

I am btw just started with that Sanderling BerlinSO trio, DLvdE first up to bat.

I can second that. There's no perfect M7, but the inner movements - the Nachtmusiken, especially, of that recording alone make it so outstanding: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html)

Favorite first movement CD: Barenboim, favorite finale CD: Boulez (in concert: Nezet-Seguin), favorite inner movements live: Roberto Abbado.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 14, 2018, 04:21:45 PM
Thanks, so that makes 2 votes for Abbado. I have his Berlin 9th, a wonderful performance. Will definitely keep an eye open. Speaking of the 9th, I will hear NS perform it next week.

I should sample the Boulez too. Not my favourite Mahler conductor, but he might be just the ticket for that 'abstract' POV I find so interesting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daverz on December 14, 2018, 04:50:19 PM
For No. 7, I usually opt for Bernstein on Sony.  For a long time it was Abbado/Chicago.  I still sort of get lost somewhere in the finale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 14, 2018, 05:09:22 PM
Those I currently have are:

Abravanel
Bernstein Sony
Haitink COA 1971
Inbal
Klemperer
Kubelik
Levine
Macal
Scherchen
Svetlanov

I have ditched Rattle Birmingham and Abbado Chicago a long time ago. If memory serves, the one I was most impressed with was the LP of Haitink's second RCOA version - very hard to find.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted: Boulez and Chicago
Post by: Cato on December 14, 2018, 06:06:11 PM
Lurking somewhere in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's archives (and at PBS, which broadcast the concert)  is the full recording, but here is a taste: as good as his DGG effort with the Cleveland Orchestra,

https://www.youtube.com/v/FO7JFVdZJ_w
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on December 15, 2018, 02:37:36 AM
Still Bernstein/NYPO (CBS/Sony) after all these years. Neumann/Czech PO would be a winner but for the disastrously slow Nachtmusik II.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Draško on December 15, 2018, 03:38:53 AM
Quote from: André on December 14, 2018, 01:39:31 PM
At this point I have not really elected a favourite version of the 7th.

What version do GMGers recommend ?

My first choice modern recording, pretty flawless if you ask me is Gielen.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CBvNHGXwL.jpg)

Two other recordings I like, but not without it's problems are Kondrashin/Concertgebouw and Scherchen/VSOO.
Kondrashin drives the orchestra beyond their capabilities at times but it's a thrilling ride. Scherchen's orchestra doesn't have much capabilities to begin with but it's the most atmospheric recording I know.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51K1dpN9BEL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RLy575j%2BL.jpg)

There is also live Gielen recording with Berlin Philharmonic from mid 90s on Testament that's got some great reviews but I haven't heard it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 15, 2018, 06:12:07 AM
I haven't listened to the Scherchen in years but will soon. I remember having been bowled over by its originality. His fifth with the same forces is also quite something.

Gielen and Kondrashin sound interesting. Gielen's second is one of my favourites. So musical. The integral set is on sale at JPC...

Yesterday I sampled clips from 3 Leipzig versions (Masur, Chailly, Neumann). The opening of I and II will test anyone's tolerance for watery/braying/vibrato-laden brass playing. I wasn't tempted to explore further. The finale's opening timpani salvo under Chailly is quite something though.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on December 15, 2018, 06:36:00 AM
There is also a Melodiya studio recording with Kondrashin that is quite impressive. I have not heard the Concertgebouw but the Russian one is also rather different from most others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 15, 2018, 09:03:07 AM
Abbado/CSO has been my No. 1 choice for decades now. I also like Gielen for a "leaner" view.

The super-slow Klemperer is in a class of its own. I don't know if it works, but it's fascinating and deserves at least one listen.

Quote from: André on December 14, 2018, 05:09:22 PM
If memory serves, the one I was most impressed with was the LP of Haitink's second RCOA version - very hard to find.

I remember this one. It got good reviews when it came out, but as you say, is hard to find now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on December 15, 2018, 09:38:18 AM
Inner movements only (I never listen to the first or last movements) I think Boulez is a very fine recording, but he rushes things a little.  Klemperer is extreme, but it works for me, and his is the only version where I can make any sense at all of the final movement.  Recording is OK but not really competitive with the best modern versions.  I also listen to Gielen (good pace overall, but slightly lack-lustre recording) and Bernstein (DG) (heading back into Klemperer territory and a better recording).
I must listen to Abbado given the comments above.  I don't have a single Abbado recording in my collection.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on December 15, 2018, 09:48:12 AM
For Mahler 7, I have listened to Tennstedt (Cleveland, LIVE, on Memories) and Gielen
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on December 15, 2018, 10:30:46 AM
Quote from: André on December 14, 2018, 05:09:22 PM
...the one I was most impressed with was the LP of Haitink's second RCOA version - very hard to find.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=145325

8),

LKB
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 15, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
Quote from: LKB on December 15, 2018, 10:30:46 AM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=145325

8),

LKB

Duly noted, thanks !

Right now I'm listening to the Scherchen version from this disc:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41XK3K3XCBL.jpg)

The first Nachtmusik is playing - cowbells have just sounded. I remember it sounded well, but I didn't think it was that good-sounding. It's impossible to miss the stereo with such wide, deep, clear and well-balanced mono sound. The amount of detail is simply amazing. Even in the thickest passages there is not a hint of peaking or overloading. The notes to the MCA reissue do not specify the venue, but it's either the Konzerthaus (my guess) or the Musikverein. The orchestra is WP-based - the VSOO and the Philharmonic shared most of their players in those days (July 1953).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 15, 2018, 12:45:16 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 15, 2018, 09:38:18 AM

cording).
I must listen to Abbado given the comments above.  I don't have a single Abbado recording in my collection.

Do! I've cooled on Abbado's recordings FAST over the last 10 years -- but there was a time where he seemed to be on a run and many of those recordings retain their appeal. And some of his Lucerne/Berlin Mahler is among that - and the Seventh certainly so. (See also: The 13 Best Recordings of Claudio Abbado: A Remembrance (https://www.forbes.com/sites/laursonpieler/2014/03/02/in-memoriam_claudio_abbado_discography/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 15, 2018, 02:01:07 PM
Quote from: André on December 15, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
Duly noted, thanks !

Right now I'm listening to the Scherchen version from this disc:

I've been listening to this Scherchen on YouTube. It reminds me how great he was at making music spontaneous, like it's being improvised right in front of you rather than played from a score. The sometimes fallible playing even helps in this respect. An endlessly interesting (if sometimes wayward) conductor.

I wonder what the original LP sounds like - anyone heard it?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 15, 2018, 02:34:28 PM
Mahler protégé Oskar Fried gave the Berlin premiere of the 7th in 1911. A young Scherchen played in the viola section on that occasion. When the Westminster recording was made in 1953 it was his first reacquaintance with the work since playing it under Fried. And yes, it sounds as if it's being composed on the spot. The first 2 movements in particular sound totally sui generis.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2018, 09:56:40 PM
Quote from: André on December 15, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
Duly noted, thanks !

Right now I'm listening to the Scherchen version from this disc:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41XK3K3XCBL.jpg)

The first Nachtmusik is playing - cowbells have just sounded. I remember it sounded well, but I didn't think it was that good-sounding. It's impossible to miss the stereo with such wide, deep, clear and well-balanced mono sound. The amount of detail is simply amazing. Even in the thickest passages there is not a hint of peaking or overloading. The notes to the MCA reissue do not specify the venue, but it's either the Konzerthaus (my guess) or the Musikverein. The orchestra is WP-based - the VSOO and the Philharmonic shared most of their players in those days (July 1953).

There's another recording of it that he made in Toronto in 1965, well worth catching. There's something small scale about what he does with the music, I'm not sure whether I like it or not.

Quote from: André on December 15, 2018, 02:34:28 PM
Mahler protégé Oskar Fried gave the Berlin premiere of the 7th in 1911. A young Scherchen played in the viola section on that occasion. When the Westminster recording was made in 1953 it was his first reacquaintance with the work since playing it under Fried. And yes, it sounds as if it's being composed on the spot. The first 2 movements in particular sound totally sui generis.

Thanks for posting this, I didn't know it, though I had heard he'd studied Mahler with Fried. Where did you get this information from?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Draško on December 16, 2018, 02:45:35 AM
Quote from: André on December 15, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41XK3K3XCBL.jpg)

The notes to the MCA reissue do not specify the venue, but it's either the Konzerthaus (my guess) or the Musikverein.

Guessed it right: Konzerthaus, Mozartsaal.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 16, 2018, 02:55:04 AM
Quote from: Draško on December 16, 2018, 02:45:35 AM
Guessed it right: Konzerthaus, Mozartsaal.  8)

How do you fit a Mahler 7 Orchestra into the Mozart Saal??? (Which wasn't even called Mozart Sall back then, I reckon?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Draško on December 16, 2018, 03:15:08 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 16, 2018, 02:55:04 AM
How do you fit a Mahler 7 Orchestra into the Mozart Saal??? (Which wasn't even called Mozart Sall back then, I reckon?)

Ask DG (click on track):

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4712632?start=10&total=23&SearchString=scherchen

Maybe the chairs weren't fixed back in the day? Or a wooden platform over the chairs? Or judging from the recording Scherchen's orchestra wasn't all that big? Who knows.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 16, 2018, 03:19:13 AM
Quote from: Draško on December 16, 2018, 03:15:08 AM
Ask DG (click on track):

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4712632?start=10&total=23&SearchString=scherchen

Maybe the chairs weren't fixed back in the day? Or a wooden platform over the chairs? Or judging from the recording Scherchen's orchestra wasn't all that big? Who knows.

I mean, it's a GREAT hall... just not for a Mahler orchestra, you'd think. Just a bit too small for any orchestral fortissimo. But you can remove the rows of seats even as it is without much hassle... so it's v. possible they used the floor. Or DG mistyped.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Draško on December 16, 2018, 04:15:33 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 16, 2018, 03:19:13 AM
Or DG mistyped.

Possibly. It was originally a Westminster production, and I've even seen doubts raised that the VSOO in their recordings is not quite the VSOO, but mainly a free-lance staffed pick-up band named thus through some loophole. So if there was mistype or misattribution I'm more likely to think them the culprit.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 16, 2018, 05:10:22 AM
Mandryka: it's from the disc's liner notes, culled in part from private documents provided by Myriam Scherchen. I have the MCA edition, the one I posted the pic from. I don't know what kind of notes the reissued Westminster box provides.

Re: the VSOO and the Konzerthaus. From what I've read many years ago, the orchestra was a rather « mobile » one, with viennese players hopping from one formation to the other rather freely. I don't think the viennese concert scene was compartmentalized then (1953). But there seems to be a consensus that most of the State Opera Orchestra members were working as the city's Philharmoniker.

The reason I guessed it was the Konzerthaus is indeed because the sense of space is quite different from the Musikverein's. More intimate, compact yet crystal clear in sound. In this particular recording the amount of percussion detail is amazing. Check the second movement for example. You can pinpoint quite precisely the spatial localization of even the faintest cymbal brushes. The thickly scored finale is muddier though. On headphones the effect is squarely monophonic. I listened to it both ways.

EDIT: I just read that conductor Otto Nicolai instituted a rule by which a musician could join the Philharmoniker only after having held a position with the State Opera orchestra. So there is indeed a direct link, and it seems to be contractual. It doesn't specify if a position can be held in both formations simultaneously, though.

https://theculturetrip.com/europe/austria/articles/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-vienna-philharmonic-orchestra/ (https://theculturetrip.com/europe/austria/articles/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-vienna-philharmonic-orchestra/)


Picture of the Konzerthaus:

(https://img.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/01747.jpg)

The Musikverein:

(https://img.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/31709.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 16, 2018, 08:25:18 AM
I think there's some confusion here. The pix you are showing are the Konzerthaus' "GROSSER SAAL" and of course the Musikverein's "GOLDEN HALL". The former is considerably bigger in volume (if not audience capacity -- but that's because they cram 'em in there, in the MV, like the Sardines) than the Musikverein... and eminently well suited to romantic music (built in 1913, after all) whereas everything from Beethoven 9th and upward already demands taking real care with the acoustics in the Musikverein. (DSCH and Mahler can be a real challenge, except for the three regular orchestras in there, which know how to handle it.) So decidedly not more intimacy in the Konzerthaus' Grosser Saal... though more clarity, due to the much wider (sound) stage.

The Mozart Saal (https://konzerthaus.at/mozart-hall), however, is the Konzerthaus' second (of the three traditional) halls; one of the best chamber venues that I know anywhere in the world.

(https://konzerthaus.at/CustomResources/image/konzerthaus/0f5d5e41-e6c8-4379-9880-7ea216f1cd0b.jpg?w=600)

But the stage isn't suited for a full orchestra, which is why I was baffled for a bit. But this hall would certainly give credence to the intimacy argument. And if it wasn't a full orchestra (just think the famous Walter 9th - recorded with an orchestra at 1/3 strength), they would have fit there just snugly, I reckon.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 16, 2018, 08:38:13 AM
I can't tell, honestly. The pics I posted are taken from the link I provided. I merely culled them because some people won't open an url they don't know. If the Mahler 7th was recorded in the Mozartsaal, it does indeed seem quite small for the undertaking.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 16, 2018, 08:46:31 AM
I also have Scherchen's VSOO versions of the 2nd from June 1958, and the 5th from July 1953. The latter date is identical with that of the 7th symphony recording, so I would assume they were recorded in the same venue. But the Resurrection, with the choir, could not, I think, have been taped in the Mozart Saal. Maybe someone can find details on that ? The liner notes to the MCA discs do not provide any clue.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on December 16, 2018, 09:43:32 AM
I can see M7 working in the Mozartsaal.

Speculating, but one layout might have had brass in the balconies, assuming they were available at the time. Standard percussion,  guitar, mandolin & harp deployed on the stage. Remove the seats, and you have just enough room for strings and woodwinds.

And of course, l may be completely wrong...

::),

LKB
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 16, 2018, 02:22:32 PM
Quote from: LKB on December 16, 2018, 09:43:32 AM
I can see M7 working in the Mozartsaal.

Speculating, but one layout might have had brass in the balconies, assuming they were available at the time. Standard percussion,  guitar, mandolin & harp deployed on the stage. Remove the seats, and you have just enough room for strings and woodwinds.

And of course, l may be completely wrong...

::),

LKB

You could just clear all the chairs and make it a recording studio, I suppose. But a M2, that might be pushing it even then. Although they might then fit into the back balcony. The hall isn't tiny; it fits 704 audience members.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on December 19, 2018, 06:04:58 AM
This peculiar 7-disc box set is currently on offer at Presto Classical, the discs cheaper than the downloads.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/512Zrtoa1IL._SX355_.jpg)

Each of the 3 symphonies is presented twice, first in a (remastered) 1960s recording by Kiril Kondrashin and the Moscow Philharmonic Orch, then in a 2016 recording by Alexander Sladkovsky with the Tatarstan Symphony Orch.  I stumbled across this while looking at the Sladkovsky complete set of Shostakovich symphonies.  The Sladkovsky recordings don't appear to be available separately.

I've only listened to the Sladkovsky Mahler 9th, via Spotify.  It's a very good recording and an unusually sweet sound in the 9th, treading lightly through the music where most other conducters adopt a heavier-seeming, almost dragging, approach in the 1st movement.  I was enjoying it a lot until that pivotal episode in the 1st movement where the orchestral bells put in a brief appearance.  Tubular bells, no, just ... no!   :(  This is admittedly a deal-breaker for me in several otherwise fine Mahler 9ths.  I was spoilt by seeing Haitink conduct the CO (I don't think it was Royal back then) and their rack of bell plates were like rough-cast slabs of old iron, but just the lightest touch from the percussionist filled the Albert Hall with a juddering sound like the dinner-gong from Hell.  What a concert that was.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on January 09, 2019, 05:47:51 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mGjo0ML0L._SX569_.jpg)

I had a listen to the Totenfeier from this new Vanska/Minnesota issue today.  Sadly I was a bit underwhelmed.  The opening seemed a bit rushed, and a bit restrained and lacking in weight, and then on reaching the first lyrical passage there was a massive slow-down and an injection of sweetness.  This pattern was repeated throughout the movement, with the dramatic passages taken quicker than average for this music, and the lyrical passages taken very slowly indeed, almost at a standstill at times.  No sense of stoic onward propulsion.  In the end the sweetness wins out and the music finishes in that mode - no pathos, no sadness, no rejection - just drips of saccharine.
On the plus side the transparent nature of the recording and the slow tempi brought through several musical details that I'd never noticed before, especially near the end of the longest lyrical passage, around halfway through in total, some wonderful bits of newly-heard detail there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 09, 2019, 06:13:52 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on December 19, 2018, 06:04:58 AM

  Tubular bells, no, just ... no!  :(  This is admittedly a deal-breaker for me in several otherwise fine Mahler 9ths.  I was spoilt by seeing Haitink conduct the CO (I don't think it was Royal back then) and their rack of bell plates were like rough-cast slabs of old iron, but just the lightest touch from the percussionist filled the Albert Hall with a juddering sound like the dinner-gong from Hell.  What a concert that was.


I will need to check my score later today (I am at school right now), but does Mahler specify the kind of Glocken ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2019, 08:41:53 AM
Speaking of Mahler: My next Discography -- highly overdue, somehow -- will be, as per Twitter-Poll stipulation, of Mahler Symphonies.

Let me float a few ideas.

For a quick overview of what a cycle contains, I've thought about a "traffic-light" system of indicating the completeness.

Here are the possibilities:

< 1-9 ("incomplete")

1-9 exactly ("bare minimum")

1-9 + Lied ("more than minimum but not complete")

1-9 + Adagio 10th ("more than minimum but not complete")

1-9 + 10th ("more than minimum but not complete")

1-9 + more other than the above ("more than minimum but not complete")

1-9 + Lied + Adagio 10th ("complete")

1-9 + Lied + 10th ("complete with honors")

all that and more (i.e. Das Klagende Lied) ("completist")

How many categories does it make sense to divide these into?


[1-9 + Adagio 10th] is very common... but it could also be lumped into a group of the "more than minimum but not complete" sets.

Does that make sense... would it help... would it be overkill and unwieldy?

Also, sorting by conductor might, in this case, make more sense than sorting by date... because it is interesting to see and directly compare how many cycles any given conductor has undertaken... and because there is often enough overlap between such cycles.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 09, 2019, 09:26:00 AM
Are there sets of just 1-9 ? I would have imagined they all contain the Adagio of the 10th as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 09, 2019, 09:40:49 AM
Quote from: André on January 09, 2019, 09:26:00 AM
Are there sets of just 1-9 ? I would have imagined they all contain the Adagio of the 10th as well.
Solti?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 09, 2019, 10:08:40 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 09, 2019, 09:40:49 AM
Solti?

You're right ! He might have a category unto himself, then. Unless there are others, that is.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2019, 10:37:44 AM
Quote from: André on January 09, 2019, 10:08:40 AM
You're right ! He might have a category unto himself, then. Unless there are others, that is.

Abbado II, Simonov. "BR Klassik Cycle". Nott*. Kubelik. Solti, as mentioned. "Telarc Cycle". Tennstedt Big Box Cycle... possibly others, as I'm not through the whole list yet.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 09, 2019, 10:47:50 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2019, 10:37:44 AM
Abbado II, Simonov. "BR Klassik Cycle". Nott*. Kubelik. Solti, as mentioned. "Telarc Cycle". Tennstedt Big Box Cycle... possibly others, as I'm not through the whole list yet.

Kubelik/DG includes the Adagio from 10.

As far as I am concerned 1-9 is a cycle. 1-9 + the adagio from 10 is a cycle with icing on the cake. The completions of 10 may be interesting, but they're not Mahler. The various lieds are only needed if you want to claim "complete works of..."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 09, 2019, 12:05:19 PM
I don't think he means various Lied, I suspect he specifically means Das Lied von der Erde. Which is often labelled as equivalent to the symphonies in all but name.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 09, 2019, 12:13:49 PM
Quote from: Madiel on January 09, 2019, 12:05:19 PM
I don't think he means various Lied, I suspect he specifically means Das Lied von der Erde. Which is often labelled as equivalent to the symphonies in all but name.

I guess you can make a case, but I tend to be literalist in such matters. He didn't call it a symphony (although he did tentatively call it a symphony in a draft, I recall).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 09, 2019, 12:19:04 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 09, 2019, 12:13:49 PM
I guess you can make a case, but I tend to be literalist in such matters. He didn't call it a symphony (although he did tentatively call it a symphony in a draft, I recall).

Oh sure, and I can see arguments both ways. I just mean that in terms of the boxes Jens is looking to tick in a discography, it's DLvdE that's being considered specifically because that is something a lot of people would be looking for.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2019, 12:22:16 PM
Quote from: Madiel on January 09, 2019, 12:19:04 PM
Oh sure, and I can see arguments both ways. I just mean that in terms of the boxes Jens is looking to tick in a discography, it's DLvdE that's being considered specifically because that is something a lot of people would be looking for.

Correct. And, although it ultimately comes down to personal taste, I do very much consider "Das Lied" the Symphony 8.5.  Or 9.0, with the 9th 9.1. Or something along those lines.

Ghost is right, of course, re: Kubelik.

Would something like the below be distinctive enough...?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 09, 2019, 06:11:53 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2019, 10:37:44 AM
Abbado II, Simonov. "BR Klassik Cycle". Nott*. Kubelik. Solti, as mentioned. "Telarc Cycle". Tennstedt Big Box Cycle... possibly others, as I'm not through the whole list yet.
Just looking at my shelves I see Neumann/Czech PO only has 1-9.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2019, 10:28:16 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 09, 2019, 06:11:53 PM
Just looking at my shelves I see Neumann/Czech PO only has 1-9.

Not even right after the First Symphony? The newer box (I overlooked it at first, too) has it, at least.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 14, 2019, 11:29:43 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2019, 10:28:16 PM
Not even right after the First Symphony? The newer box (I overlooked it at first, too) has it, at least.
You are correct my bad.

Does this hodge-podge count?
[asin]B000063WA1[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 11:36:47 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 09, 2019, 10:28:16 PM
Not even right after the First Symphony? The newer box (I overlooked it at first, too) has it, at least.

Easy to miss because Amazon has it under a misleading title ("1-9") even though the 10 Adagio is there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 14, 2019, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 14, 2019, 11:29:43 AM
You are correct my bad.

Does this hodge-podge count?
[asin]B000063WA1[/asin]

Yes, I might include that, actually.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 01:12:26 PM
I don't know what counts as an "incomplete cycle" but one possibility is Neuman/Gewandhaus. I have seen 5, 6, 7 and 9. It is possible there are others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 14, 2019, 01:19:01 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 01:12:26 PM
I don't know what counts as an "incomplete cycle" but one possibility is Neuman/Gewandhaus. I have seen 5, 6, 7 and 9. It is possible there are others.

Neuman Gewandhaus is awfully incomplete -- but that which is in it is soooo good, so I might include it -- if I can find all albums in one place or in print.
If so, then I would also include non-cycle cycles of Walter and Klemperer, Tennstedt LIVE, and Barbirolli.

Other incomplete cycles (more obviously cycles, at that) are Haitink/Berlin, Haitink/Kerstmatinees, Kondrashin, Levine, Mácal, Abbado/Lucerne, Chailly/Leipzig.


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 14, 2019, 01:51:40 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 14, 2019, 12:40:23 PM
Yes, I might include that, actually.
It is actually not bad, number 2 and 8 are pretty weak but the rest are actually surprisingly good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 01:53:34 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 14, 2019, 01:19:01 PM
Neuman Gewandhaus is awfully incomplete -- but that which is in it is soooo good, so I might include it -- if I can find all albums in one place or in print.
If so, then I would also include non-cycle cycles of Walter and Klemperer, Tennstedt LIVE, and Barbirolli.

Other incomplete cycles (more obviously cycles, at that) are Haitink/Berlin, Haitink/Kerstmatinees, Kondrashin, Levine, Mácal, Abbado/Lucerne, Chailly/Leipzig.

They are hard to find. I have 5 on Brilliant Classics and 9 on Berlin Classics. I don't know how to get the others.

It might be worth making some reference to fragments accompaning complete cycles, such as Neuman Gewandhaus along side Neuman Czech, Haitink/Berlin along side Haitink Concertgebouw, Chailly/Leipzig alongside Chailly Concertgebouw, etc.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 14, 2019, 03:38:11 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 01:53:34 PM
They are hard to find. I have 5 on Brilliant Classics and 9 on Berlin Classics. I don't know how to get the others.

7 seems readily available also from Berlin Classics:

[asin]B0002C5Z56[/asin]

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 03:58:21 PM
Good find. My googling skills failed me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 14, 2019, 04:17:53 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 03:58:21 PM
Good find. My googling skills failed me.
6 seems to be available from some scalper:

[asin]B000025DFN[/asin]
(what odd coupling !)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2019, 01:49:01 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 14, 2019, 01:53:34 PM
They are hard to find. I have 5 on Brilliant Classics and 9 on Berlin Classics. I don't know how to get the others.

It might be worth making some reference to fragments accompaning complete cycles, such as Neuman Gewandhaus along side Neuman Czech, Haitink/Berlin along side Haitink Concertgebouw, Chailly/Leipzig alongside Chailly Concertgebouw, etc.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Namely -- that instead of going strictly chronological in this presentation, I will go Alphabetically by conductor. This makes the presentation of such almost-cycles much more natural, I should think.

Thanks for finding the Neumann 6th. Now it's just down to waiting for Berlin Classics to re-issue it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 15, 2019, 04:54:31 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 15, 2019, 01:49:01 AM
That's exactly what I'm thinking. Namely -- that instead of going strictly chronological in this presentation, I will go Alphabetically by conductor. This makes the presentation of such almost-cycles much more natural, I should think.

Thanks for finding the Neumann 6th. Now it's just down to waiting for Berlin Classics to re-issue it.

Preferably on a single disc, Beethovenless.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 02:15:03 AM
Quote from: André on January 15, 2019, 04:54:31 PM
Preferably on a single disc, Beethovenless.

Indeed. More preferably still, perhaps, boxed with the other three Mahler Symphonies from Leipzig with him.

In fact, I could also think of a neat historic GDR Mahler cycle, methinks. With some Roegner, Herbig, Neumann et al. Anyone fancy that idea?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 16, 2019, 02:23:51 AM
I have Symphonies 4, 5 & 9 on Brilliant discs, they are part of a Symphonies Edition in cardboard sleeves and they are numbered CD73, 74 and 79. I bought them individually on ebay.  No 4 is from Harmut Haenchen and the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra, Nos 5 & 9 from Neumann and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. Presumably this edition contained a complete Mahler cycle but who conducted the others I have no idea.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2019, 02:53:33 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 16, 2019, 02:23:51 AM
I have Symphonies 4, 5 & 9 on Brilliant discs, they are part of a Symphonies Edition in cardboard sleeves and they are numbered CD73, 74 and 79. I bought them individually on ebay.  No 4 is from Harmut Haenchen and the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra, Nos 5 & 9 from Neumann and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. Presumably this edition contained a complete Mahler cycle but who conducted the others I have no idea.
Brilliant once came out with a big box called the Complete Symphony Set. It had 200+ symphonies and I believe this is where you got those cds from.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 16, 2019, 03:09:59 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2019, 02:53:33 AM
Brilliant once came out with a big box called the Complete Symphony Set. It had 200+ symphonies and I believe this is where you got those cds from.

Thanks for the info. Checking my collection, I have the complete Mozart Symphonies (Jaap ter Linden/Mozart Akademie Amsterdam) and Haydn's London Symphonies (Adam Fischer/Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra) from the same box. Several years ago there was a seller on ebay who broke up Brilliant Boxes and sold the discs individually or in batches. No idea what his source was, presumably returns.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 16, 2019, 03:26:15 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 16, 2019, 03:09:59 AM
Thanks for the info. Checking my collection, I have the complete Mozart Symphonies (Jaap ter Linden/Mozart Akademie Amsterdam) and Haydn's London Symphonies (Adam Fischer/Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra) from the same box. Several years ago there was a seller on ebay who broke up Brilliant Boxes and sold the discs individually or in batches. No idea what his source was, presumably returns.
Here's a link http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=176769. Arkiv seems to be the only one still with a listing (or perhaps it had another name).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 16, 2019, 07:00:38 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 02:15:03 AM
Indeed. More preferably still, perhaps, boxed with the other three Mahler Symphonies from Leipzig with him.

In fact, I could also think of a neat historic GDR Mahler cycle, methinks. With some Roegner, Herbig, Neumann et al. Anyone fancy that idea?

Absolutely ! Herbig is excellent in the Mahler 5th and 6th - overlapping with Neumann, though. Rögner's 3rd is one of my top 3 versions for that work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 07:13:09 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv1GACwWsAAojDf.jpg)
(https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1080096453643722752)
"Can you put the #Mahler #Symphonies on my iPod?"

Here's my choice of 1-10 + Lied + Blumine

#iPod #MahlerCycle: Rules: Every conductor only once. Intentionsl bias towards modern recordings:

1) #RiccardoChailly, @rcoamsterdam, @deccaclassics

#2) #SeijiOzawa, #BostonSymphony, #Philips/#Decca

#3) #MichaelTilsonThomas, #SFSymphony, SFSM

#4) #BernardHaitink, #ChristineSchäfer, #ConcertgebouwOrkest, #RCOLive

#5) #MarkusStenz, @guerzenichorch, @oehmsclassics (replacing Neumann/Leipzig on spontaneous decision)

#6) #PierreBoulez, #GustavMahlerJugendOrchester #GMYO, @PreiserRecords private reserve

#7) #KirillKondrashin, #LeningradPhilharmonicOrchestra, @firmamelodia - a classic amid this list

#8) #MichaelGielen, #SWRSinfonieorchester #BadenBaden & #Freiburg, #HaensslerClassic

#LvdE) #OttoKlemperer, #PhilharmoniaOrchestra, @FritzWunderlich, #ChristaLudwig, #EMI A stone-cold classic

#9) #IvanFischer, #BudapestFestivalOrchestra, #ChannelClassics

#10) (#CookeII) #KurtSanderling, #konzerthausorchesterberlin, #BerlinClassics

#Blumine, #Totenfeier, #Adagio of the 10th, #WhatTheWildFlowersTellMe (#BenjaminBritten arrangement), Paavo Jaervi, Frankfurt RSO, Virgin/Erato
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on January 16, 2019, 04:45:57 PM
Quote from: Biffo on January 16, 2019, 03:09:59 AM
Thanks for the info. Checking my collection, I have the complete Mozart Symphonies (Jaap ter Linden/Mozart Akademie Amsterdam) and Haydn's London Symphonies (Adam Fischer/Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra) from the same box. Several years ago there was a seller on ebay who broke up Brilliant Boxes and sold the discs individually or in batches. No idea what his source was, presumably returns.

I have the  big box, a 100CD set. Most of the cycles are, or were, issued separately. It included the whole of Fischer's Haydn.
The Mahler is the hodgepodge cycle posted a few days ago on this thread, now OOP and pricey.
[asin]B000063WA1[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 17, 2019, 03:18:06 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 07:13:09 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv1GACwWsAAojDf.jpg)
(https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1080096453643722752)
"Can you put the #Mahler #Symphonies on my iPod?"

Here's my choice of 1-10 + Lied + Blumine

#iPod #MahlerCycle: Rules: Every conductor only once. Intentionsl bias towards modern recordings:

1) #RiccardoChailly, @rcoamsterdam, @deccaclassics

#2) #SeijiOzawa, #BostonSymphony, #Philips/#Decca

#3) #MichaelTilsonThomas, #SFSymphony, SFSM

#4) #BernardHaitink, #ChristineSchäfer, #ConcertgebouwOrkest, #RCOLive

#5) #MarkusStenz, @guerzenichorch, @oehmsclassics (replacing Neumann/Leipzig on spontaneous decision)

#6) #PierreBoulez, #GustavMahlerJugendOrchester #GMYO, @PreiserRecords private reserve

#7) #KirillKondrashin, #LeningradPhilharmonicOrchestra, @firmamelodia - a classic amid this list

#8) #MichaelGielen, #SWRSinfonieorchester #BadenBaden & #Freiburg, #HaensslerClassic

#LvdE) #OttoKlemperer, #PhilharmoniaOrchestra, @FritzWunderlich, #ChristaLudwig, #EMI A stone-cold classic

#9) #IvanFischer, #BudapestFestivalOrchestra, #ChannelClassics

#10) (#CookeII) #KurtSanderling, #konzerthausorchesterberlin, #BerlinClassics

#Blumine, #Totenfeier, #Adagio of the 10th, #WhatTheWildFlowersTellMe (#BenjaminBritten arrangement), Paavo Jaervi, Frankfurt RSO, Virgin/Erato

On one level I want to check this out. On another I'm thinking: bugger, why is the live recording of No.1 by Kubelik no longer the "right" choice, that's as far as my collection had got...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2019, 04:14:25 AM
Quote from: Madiel on January 17, 2019, 03:18:06 AM
On one level I want to check this out. On another I'm thinking: bugger, why is the live recording of No.1 by Kubelik no longer the "right" choice, that's as far as my collection had got...
[/b]

Rafael Kubelik is always a right choice!  0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 17, 2019, 04:30:30 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 16, 2019, 07:13:09 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv1GACwWsAAojDf.jpg)
(https://twitter.com/ClassicalCritic/status/1080096453643722752)
...
#6) #PierreBoulez, #GustavMahlerJugendOrchester #GMYO, @PreiserRecords private reserve
...
Interesting list, Jens.  :)

I've never heard of that Sixth with PB and the GMYO. I know the classic VPO on DG, one with the Lucerne Festival Academy on Accentus, and a live bootleg of an early performance with the BBCSO.

I've never heard of the "Presier Reserve" label either (of "Presier" tout court I have many—mainly historic opera—in my collection, of course).

Is a CD of this Sixth you recommended available anywhere? I can't find mention of it anywhere . :-[

Thanks and regards.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 04:37:12 AM
Quote from: Madiel on January 17, 2019, 03:18:06 AM
On one level I want to check this out. On another I'm thinking: bugger, why is the live recording of No.1 by Kubelik no longer the "right" choice, that's as far as my collection had got...

Still totally a right choice, Kubelik is. :-)  But I did love the fact that Chailly had the orchestrated Berg Sonata on the disc.




By the way, I'm thinking: What ARE the absolutely totally CLASSIC choices for best in each symphony? You know what I mean?

1.) Kubelik/BRSO/DG [lock]
2.) Mehta/WPh/Decca (I think that should be a lock; is Klemperer's still competitive? Would the English absolutely insist on either Rattle recording?)
3.) Bernstein? Abbado/Lucerne?
4.) Maazel?
5.) Chailly/RCO/Decca (I think that's a lock. Or can Bernstein II/DG? creep in?)
6.) Barbirolli/EMI?
7.) Is there one? Can there be one? I'd go with Boulez/DG, which would be fairly recent for a "classic choice". Abbado/Chicago, probably.
8.) Solti/CSO/Decca [lock]
DLvdE.) Klemperer / EMI [lock]
9.) Karajan II/Berlin/DG [lock?]
10.) Rattle

Again, these are not MY favorites (though I agree with the absolute excellence of most, except perhaps Rattle 10, Abbado/Chicago 7, and of course Solti 8, which I sortofhate) but the ones that I think are the most established, consensus-friendly, widely acknowledged picks.

Quote from: ritter on January 17, 2019, 04:30:30 AM
Interesting list, Jens.  :)
centus, and a live bootleg of an early performance with the BBCSO.

I've never heard of the "Presier Reserve" label either (of "Preiser" tout court I have many—mainly historic opera—in my collection, of course).
Is a CD of this Sixth you recommended available anywhere? I can't find mention of it anywhere . :-[

Thanks and regards.

Dear Ritter,

no. "Private Reserve" was my joke about this being a recording that is not publically available. It was made by Preiser for MunichRe members (who presumably sponsored a concert or a tour of the GMYO) but not to be released. I threw it in, to be honest, to be 'a little special'. :-) Anyone having Boulez' commercial account is of well enough; it's not this is somehow wildly superior to other recordings only for being near-impossible to get.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 17, 2019, 04:46:28 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Jens. The Boulez completist in me will have to do with the DG and Accentus releases for the time being, but will not rest until I locate a copy of this elusive GMYO recording (even if I have to stalk the PR director of Munich RE to achieve this  ;D).

Cheers,
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 05:59:17 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 04:37:12 AM
Still totally a right choice, Kubelik is. :-)  But I did love the fact that Chailly had the orchestrated Berg Sonata on the disc.

By the way, I'm thinking: What ARE the absolutely totally CLASSIC choices for best in each symphony? You know what I mean?

1.) Kubelik/BRSO/DG [lock]
2.) Mehta/WPh/Decca (I think that should be a lock; is Klemperer's still competitive? Would the English absolutely insist on either Rattle recording?)
3.) Bernstein? Abbado/Lucerne?
4.) Maazel?
5.) Chailly/RCO/Decca (I think that's a lock. Or can Bernstein II/DG? creep in?)
6.) Barbirolli/EMI?
7.) Is there one? Can there be one? I'd go with Boulez/DG, which would be fairly recent for a "classic choice". Abbado/Chicago, probably.
8.) Solti/CSO/Decca [lock]
DLvdE.) Klemperer / EMI [lock]
9.) Karajan II/Berlin/DG [lock?]
10.) Rattle

Again, these are not MY favorites (though I agree with the absolute excellence of most, except perhaps Rattle 10, Abbado/Chicago 7, and of course Solti 8, which I sortofhate) but the ones that I think are the most established, consensus-friendly, widely acknowledged picks.


I think this proposed list shows the difficulty of choosing recordings that can be called CLASSIC, let alone 'totally CLASSIC.

I agree about Kubelik for No 1, after that I have extreme difficulties.

I heard Mehta conduct No 2 with the Philharmonia many years ago and for a long time rated it the worst performance of anything I had heard by a professional orchestra. I went completely off Mehta after that. I haven't heard the recording in question. Klemperer is always competitive in this symphony.

For No 3, if by Bernstein you mean Bernstein/NYPO I think it is a reasonable choice but would prefer Horenstein/LSO

Again, I don't know Maazel's No 4 but he is another conductor I went off after too many disappointing live performances though I never heard him in Mahler. I find it nearly impossible to nominate a 'classic' No 4 though Iknow many rate Horenstein again.

Barbirolli is my choice for No 5. I bought the Chailly cycle individually as they were released; many of them got tepid reviews but I enjoyed them all - Nos 2 & 8 are my favourites but probably not classics.

I would nominate Kubelik/BRSO for No 6 and Bernstein/NYPO for No 7.

Like the poster I don't like Solti in No 8 but find it hard to say what else has classic status. For me, it is Mahler's most problematic symphony.

Klemperer/Philharmonia etc is my all time top choice for DLvdE and my top choice of any Mahler recording.

I don't know the Karajan, I have his other recording of No 9 and would nominate Haitink/Concertgebouw (his first studio recording)

I suppose Rattle/Bournemouth is the best No 10 though I have heard little of the competition.

I am sure many reading this will have profound disagreements and their own nominations.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 17, 2019, 06:30:10 AM
I agree with Biffo on 3/Horenstein. When people talk about classic 3rds, this is the one I hear being talked about

5- it's between Chailly and Barbirolli I think

Just some different ideas"
4- Szell
6- Karajan
7- Tennstedt live 7th? Probably not well known enough, for all that it's been around awhile.
8 - could be Ozawa perhaps? Still, it's likely Solti.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 06:51:18 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 17, 2019, 06:30:10 AM
I agree with Biffo on 3/Horenstein. When people talk about classic 3rds, this is the one I hear being talked about

5- it's between Chailly and Barbirolli I think

Just some different ideas"
4- Szell
6- Karajan
7- Tennstedt live 7th? Probably not well known enough, for all that it's been around awhile.
8 - could be Ozawa perhaps? Still, it's likely Solti.

Forgot about Szell, excellent choice.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 17, 2019, 06:51:59 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 04:37:12 AM
By the way, I'm thinking: What ARE the absolutely totally CLASSIC choices for best in each symphony? You know what I mean?


[...] the ones that I think are the most established, consensus-friendly, widely acknowledged picks.

With that in mind, I would insist on Horenstein/LSO for 3 (and possibly 1), and Szell for 4. Bernstein for 6 (even though I personally don't like it) because for years it was considered the polar opposite approach to Barbirolli, but equally valid.

For the 9th, there are too many classic recordings to pick just one - both Walters, Barbirolli, Haitink, possibly Giulini or Klemperer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 06:53:35 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 05:59:17 AM
I think this proposed list shows the difficulty of choosing recordings that can be called CLASSIC, let alone 'totally CLASSIC.
I agree about Kubelik for No 1, after that I have extreme difficulties.

Then that's done.  ;D

QuoteI heard Mehta conduct No 2 with the Philharmonia many years ago and for a long time rated it the worst performance of anything I had heard by a professional orchestra. I went completely off Mehta after that. I haven't heard the recording in question. Klemperer is always competitive in this symphony.

Oh, I don't doubt that. Old Mehta (even what for you must be "many years" ago) could be TERRIBLY boring and tedious. But his firebrand early recordings -- of the 2nd especially (https://amzn.to/2TUDd96) but also of the 3rd in LA (https://amzn.to/2SY70h5) -- are VERY good.

QuoteFor No 3, if by Bernstein you mean Bernstein/NYPO I think it is a reasonable choice but would prefer Horenstein/LSO

Aren't both Bernstein 3rds with the NYPO? I mean the DG one. But you and mc ukrneal are right, the "Classic" is probably Horenstein. [Here we already notice that what someone considers THE classic does age you. Horenstein, for example, was already no longer the classic when I grew up. And it was exemplified by the fact that it was out of print for the longest time. (Is it still?)

QuoteAgain, I don't know Maazel's No 4 but he is another conductor I went off after too many disappointing live performances though I never heard him in Mahler. I find it nearly impossible to nominate a 'classic' No 4 though Iknow many rate Horenstein again.

Again, another conductor, like Mehta, that I suffered through in New York AND Munich. Ugh! But again, there are exceptions... none of these guys got their reputation on nothing. And Maazel's Fourth (https://amzn.to/2FKvXcn) is very good; one of the top five recordings of the work, I'd say. Certainly Top 10. Kathleen Battle really fits the part.

QuoteBarbirolli is my choice for No 5. I bought the Chailly cycle individually as they were released; many of them got tepid reviews but I enjoyed them all - Nos 2 & 8 are my favourites but probably not classics.

Chailly's Fifth is probably still considered THE audiophile (for regular CDs) Fifth. That's the one that never got tepid reviews. I long found it too slick, myself, but it really is very good. (I might be tempted to include Kubelik's DG 5th here, but it's not "as" classic. You're right to mention the Barbirolli 5th, which is a good contender for that spot.

QuoteI would nominate Kubelik/BRSO for No 6 and Bernstein/NYPO for No 7.

Really? Kubelik's 6th? I never knew it had that status. I'll listen to it right now; by good fortune and coincidence, the new Kubelik remastered set just arrived today. You're right about Bernstein/NY for the 7th... that one should at least be considered.

QuoteLike the poster I don't like Solti in No 8 but find it hard to say what else has classic status. For me, it is Mahler's most problematic symphony.
By all means, call me "Jens". :-) Solti's the classic, no two ways about it. I could only begin to imagine that it might be rivalled by Abravanel... and that only in the US. But not seriously. This still is "the" 8th, as much as it enervates me. Gets so under my skin, I tried to throw it under the bus in a radio interview about Mahler's 8th (https://avemariaradio.net/audio-archive/church-and-culture-november-24-2018-hour-2/), recently. :-)

QuoteKlemperer/Philharmonia etc is my all time top choice for DLvdE and my top choice of any Mahler recording.
We agree again.

QuoteI don't know the Karajan, I have his other recording of No 9 and would nominate Haitink/Concertgebouw (his first studio recording)

The Karajan is terrific -- but the Haitink is superb, too... I think those two probably vie for that spot.

QuoteI suppose Rattle/Bournemouth is the best No 10 though I have heard little of the competition.


Again, we're not looking for the "best" (it wouldn't be my choice for best, either), but "the classic". You might be right all the same... but I think the 10th only made it mainstream with the second Rattle recording from Berlin. (My favorite reocrdings, at least of several years back, can be found here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/mahler-survey.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 17, 2019, 06:57:09 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 06:53:35 AM

Chailly's Fifth is probably still considered THE audiophile (for regular CDs) Fifth. That's the one that never got tepid reviews. I long found it too slick, myself, but it really is very good.

I remember how staggered I was by the sound of that one, when I first got it back in 1999 or so. Great performance too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 17, 2019, 06:30:10 AM
I agree with Biffo on 3/Horenstein. When people talk about classic 3rds, this is the one I hear being talked about

5- it's between Chailly and Barbirolli I think

Just some different ideas"
4- Szell
6- Karajan
7- Tennstedt live 7th? Probably not well known enough, for all that it's been around awhile.
8 - could be Ozawa perhaps? Still, it's likely Solti.

It's not Ozawa for the 8th. That's the BEST recording. Not the "Classic" recording. Was out of print for years; much underappreciated. Perhaps I flatter myself, but I think that I might have had a v. small part (at least here on GMG) in restoring it to its rightful reputation.  8) :-\

Same "problem" with your 7th... if it is not well known enough, it's not a classic. I wouldn't consider that a likely fit.

However, you're spot on with the 4th. THAT's probably "THE Classic". And I hear you, re: Karajan's 6th. (I also happen to like that one very much; as I do the Barbirolli... though personal preference is besides the point here.)

I didn't stipulate those rules, but for myself I'm playing with them, anyway: I don't want any conductor more than once on this list; using Herbie for No.6 frees No.9 for Haitink...

As for the 5th, I think that's a question of when you went to college.  ;D Between 1950 and 1975: Barbi. Between 1975 and 2000: Chailly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 06:59:51 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 17, 2019, 06:51:59 AM
With that in mind, I would insist on Horenstein/LSO for 3 (and possibly 1), and Szell for 4. Bernstein for 6 (even though I personally don't like it) because for years it was considered the polar opposite approach to Barbirolli, but equally valid.

For the 9th, there are too many classic recordings to pick just one - both Walters, Barbirolli, Haitink, possibly Giulini or Klemperer.

Good mention of Walter! I'm not sure if he makes the cut but he belongs in the discussion. If it weren't Kubelik for No.1, he might have a shot there, too. And the 9th is very famous. (Although it's a recording with a souped-up chamber orchestra that isn't in the least "authentic" in any proper way. But it was Walter... so, presto. :-))

OK, List as modified:

1.) Kubelik (https://amzn.to/2CqoMTg)/BRSO/DG [lock]
2.) ___________________Mehta/WPh/Decca
3.) Horenstein (https://amzn.to/2T29JGy)/LSO/Kancha-Unicorn Bernstein? Abbado/Lucerne?
4.) Szell (https://amzn.to/2MgfFZR)/Raskin/Cleveland/Sony [lock]
5.) ___________________Chailly/RCO/Decca or Bernstein/DG or Barbirolli/EMI?
6.) ___________________Barbirolli/EMI or Bernstein/NY?
7.) ___________________Abbado/Chicago/DG or Bernstein/NY?
8.) Solti (https://amzn.to/2MfuvzQ)/CSO/Decca [lock]
DLvdE.) Klemperer (https://amzn.to/2Mh4jEP)/EMI [lock]
9.) __________________Karajan II/Berlin/DG or Haitink/RCO I or Walter/Columbia
10.) ___________________Rattle/Berlin/EMI?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 07:03:32 AM
A couple of clarifications. It was Mehta in the mid-70s and it was shocking, worse because about the same time I heard an absolutely stunning performance from Levine with the LSO (soloists Jessye Norman and Margaret Price).

For Mahler 3 I mean Bernstein's CBS (now Sony) recording. The later DG recording shows the benefit of his experience with the work but he seems to have slowed down (haven't checked the timings) and is not as fresh as the earlier versions.

Probably Kubelik doesn't qualify as 'classic' in No 6 but still my favourite. You could replace him with Szell or Barbirolli's live the Philharmonia, recorded at the same time as the studio recording but better though doesn't seem to have the status.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on January 17, 2019, 07:10:51 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 05:59:17 AM
I think this proposed list shows the difficulty of choosing recordings that can be called CLASSIC, let alone 'totally CLASSIC.

I agree about Kubelik for No 1, after that I have extreme difficulties.

I heard Mehta conduct No 2 with the Philharmonia many years ago and for a long time rated it the worst performance of anything I had heard by a professional orchestra. I went completely off Mehta after that. I haven't heard the recording in question. Klemperer is always competitive in this symphony.

For No 3, if by Bernstein you mean Bernstein/NYPO I think it is a reasonable choice but would prefer Horenstein/LSO

Again, I don't know Maazel's No 4 but he is another conductor I went off after too many disappointing live performances though I never heard him in Mahler. I find it nearly impossible to nominate a 'classic' No 4 though Iknow many rate Horenstein again.

Barbirolli is my choice for No 5. I bought the Chailly cycle individually as they were released; many of them got tepid reviews but I enjoyed them all - Nos 2 & 8 are my favourites but probably not classics.

I would nominate Kubelik/BRSO for No 6 and Bernstein/NYPO for No 7.

Like the poster I don't like Solti in No 8 but find it hard to say what else has classic status. For me, it is Mahler's most problematic symphony.

Klemperer/Philharmonia etc is my all time top choice for DLvdE and my top choice of any Mahler recording.

I don't know the Karajan, I have his other recording of No 9 and would nominate Haitink/Concertgebouw (his first studio recording)

I suppose Rattle/Bournemouth is the best No 10 though I have heard little of the competition.

I am sure many reading this will have profound disagreements and their own nominations.

The Mehta VP Second is an excellent recording, but if pressed I would nominate either Bernstein on DG or Tilson Thomas/SFO as my preference. The one conductor I would avoid in this symphony is Abbado. Only one of his three recordings is good (CSO). The Luzern recording is okay but nothing more.  His VPO recording is my choice for worst Mahler recording by a well known conductor.
Come to think of it,  Mehta is runner-up in that category, with his recording of the Third with the Bavarian RSO.

My list
1--no clear preference
2--Bernsteun DG
3--Gergiev LSO
4--no clear preference
5--Karajan
6--Barbarolli
7--Abbado Berlin
8--MTT/SFO
9--Zinman Zurich
10-Rattle Berlin
DLvdE--Krips with Wunderlich and DFD
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 07:16:05 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 17, 2019, 07:10:51 AM
The Mehta VP Second is an excellent recording, but if pressed I would nominate either Bernstein on DG or Tilson Thomas/SFO as my preference. The one conductor I would avoid in this symphony is Abbado. Only one of his three recordings is good (CSO). The Luzern recording is okay but nothing more.  His VPO recording is my choice for worst Mahler recording by a well known conductor.
Come to think of it,  Mehta is runner-up in that category, with his recording of the Third with the Bavarian RSO.

My list
1--no clear preference
2--Bernsteun DG
3--Gergiev LSO
4--no clear preference
5--Karajan
6--Barbarolli
7--Abbado Berlin
8--MTT/SFO
9--Zinman Zurich
10-Rattle Berlin
DLvdE--Krips with Wunderlich and DFD

Yeah, that M3 with Mehta @ Munich is not a winner.

Btw.: We're trying to put together a list not of our preferences or what we think is necessarily "good" or "best" (for once  ;D) but what might/would be considered the absolute "Classic" recordings/recommendations for each Mahler symphony...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on January 17, 2019, 07:35:01 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 07:16:05 AM
Yeah, that M3 with Mehta @ Munich is not a winner.

Btw.: We're trying to put together a list not of our preferences or what we think is necessarily "good" or "best" (for once  ;D) but what might/would be considered the absolute "Classic" recordings/recommendations for each Mahler symphony...

In that case, substitute Bernstein DG for everything except 5,6, 10, and DLvdE :D

My own opinion is that a lot of the older famous recordings are not really better than the modern ones, and often modern sonics gives the latter definite advantage.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 17, 2019, 07:46:34 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 17, 2019, 07:35:01 AM

My own opinion is that a lot of the older famous recordings are not really better than the modern ones, and often modern sonics gives the latter definite advantage.

It occurred to me some years ago that even with a cutoff point of 1970, you could still put together a really good Mahler cycle:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19198.0.html

Also, there's an intangible something about those pioneering recordings which I miss in more recent ones.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 07:54:41 AM
I will try again, this time choosing recordings that I can remember being consistently praised since ca. 1970

(1) Kubelik/BRSO
(2) Klemperer/Philharmonia (studio recording)
(3) Horenstein/LSO
(4) Szell/Cleveland
(5) Barbirolli/New Philharmonia (has his detractors)
(6) Still can't say, possibly Szell again
(7) Bernstein/NYPO
(8) Solti/Chicago SO
(9) Haitink/Concertgebouw - the 'ideal Mahler 9' according to Gramophone
(10) Rattle/Bournemouth SO
DLvdE - Walter/VPO/Ferrier/Patzak

I realise most (all?) now also have vintage status but can't think of more modern recordings that have achieved 'classic' status or anything approaching a consensus for that status.

Until joining this forum I had only heard good opinions of Abbado. I have generally enjoyed his Mahler recordings but, No 7 apart, don't revisit them very often.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2019, 07:56:17 AM
Leopold Ludwig  must be an option for a classic Mahler Ninth Symphony.


[asin]B0000023HN[/asin]

My original record had some hiss, but perhaps this remastering has tamed that snake?  Anyway, a marvelous performance!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 08:14:12 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 17, 2019, 07:59:49 AM
Looks like I chose the wrong time to talk about Mahler songs with SQ.  ::)

I did listen to the 'Wayfarer' songs from this album but couldn't find much to say that was very positive or very negative. In the end I refrained from commenting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 08:16:57 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 17, 2019, 07:35:01 AM
In that case, substitute Bernstein DG for everything except 5,6, 10, and DLvdE :D

My own opinion is that a lot of the older famous recordings are not really better than the modern ones, and often modern sonics gives the latter definite advantage.

I'm with you on that. That's the nature of "golden age" recordings. The reception of it works into how we appreciate it. We remember our impression, not the thing itself. Fascinating sub-genre or record-reviewing psychology. :-)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2019, 08:25:41 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 17, 2019, 07:56:17 AM
Leopold Ludwig  must be an option for a classic Mahler Ninth Symphony.


[asin]B0000023HN[/asin]

My original record had some hiss, but perhaps this remastering has tamed that snake?  Anyway, a marvelous performance!

Found it on YouTube, and the hiss seems to be gone!

From early stereo days: 1959!  This was my "imprint" for the Mahler Ninth Symphony!  Played it dozens and dozens of times!

https://www.youtube.com/v/_mK_9oVvACs
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 17, 2019, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 17, 2019, 08:25:41 AM
Found it on YouTube, and the hiss seems to be gone!

From early stereo days: 1959!  This was my "imprint" for the Mahler Ninth Symphony!  Played it dozens and dozens of times!

https://www.youtube.com/v/_mK_9oVvACs

My favourite M9, the antithesis of all the neurotic farewells to the world we usually get.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:23:21 PM
Quote from: Biffo on January 17, 2019, 07:54:41 AM
I will try again, this time choosing recordings that I can remember being consistently praised since ca. 1970

(1) Kubelik/BRSO
(2) Klemperer/Philharmonia (studio recording)
(3) Horenstein/LSO
(4) Szell/Cleveland
(5) Barbirolli/New Philharmonia (has his detractors)
(6) Still can't say, possibly Szell again
(7) Bernstein/NYPO
(8) Solti/Chicago SO
(9) Haitink/Concertgebouw - the 'ideal Mahler 9' according to Gramophone
(10) Rattle/Bournemouth SO
DLvdE - Walter/VPO/Ferrier/Patzak

That would be (almost) my list of classic performances. I'd substitute Solti's Sixth for Szell's (although I love that one too and, in fact, was in the audience at one of those performances in 1967) and Ormandy's 10th for Rattle's (hate it). Ormandy really digs into the emotional depths of the last movement. Rattle is just meh.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:23:21 PM
That would be (almost) my list of classic performances. I'd substitute Solti's Sixth for Szell's (although I love that one too and, in fact, was in the audience at one of those performances in 1967) and Ormandy's 10th for Rattle's (hate it). Ormandy really digs into the emotional depths of the last movement. Rattle is just meh.

Sarge

I recently got the enormous Szell box, maybe the Mahler 6th will be the first thing I dig out of there.

Unless there are other suggestions....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 17, 2019, 12:30:06 PM
You realise I'm going to have to go back over the last page and take notes for future reference...

I'm still bummed that a blind listening on Symphony No.2 collapsed partway through and I never found out just which version it was that I'd be enjoying in the opening roudns.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:36:29 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
I recently got the enormous Szell box, maybe the Mahler 6th will be the first thing I dig out of there.

Unless there are other suggestions....

Szell's Sixth is rather objective, classically restrained until the final A minor fate chord...and that chord is absolutely devastating.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:42:25 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
I recently got the enormous Szell box, maybe the Mahler 6th will be the first thing I dig out of there.

Unless there are other suggestions....

Try his Kodály Háry János and Janáček Sinfonietta (majestic fanfares).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2019, 12:45:45 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
I recently got the enormous Szell box, maybe the Mahler 6th will be the first thing I dig out of there.

Unless there are other suggestions....

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:42:25 PM
Try his Kodály Háry János and Janáček Sinfonietta.

Sarge

Amen!   0:)

Are the 4symphonies of Robert Schumann in it?  Put those near the top of the list!  Or a "Ring der Nibelungen" highlights?  That one too!  It was so fantastic that critics were urging Szell to record all four operas!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:47:26 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 17, 2019, 12:45:45 PM
Amen!   0:)

Are the 4symphonies of Robert Schumann in it?  Put those near the top of the list!  Or a "Ring der Nibelungen" highlights?  That one too!  It was so fantastic that critics were urging Szell to record all four operas!

Completely agree with the Wagner highlights, and Szell's 2 and 4 Schumann.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 17, 2019, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:36:29 PM
Szell's Sixth is rather objective, classically restrained until the final A minor fate chord...and that chord is absolutely devastating.

Sarge

That sounds appealing.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:42:25 PM
Try his Kodály Háry János and Janáček Sinfonietta.

Sarge

Oooooh, I wasn't even aware he recorded the Janacek. I'll put the Janacek and Kodaly at the top of the list with the Mahler.

Quote from: Cato on January 17, 2019, 12:45:45 PM
Amen!   0:)

Are the 4symphonies of Robert Schumann in it?  Put those near the top of the list!  Or a "Ring der Nibelungen" highlights?  That one too!  It was so fantastic that critics were urging Szell to record all four operas!

It's got all of the Columbia (now Sony) recordings. The Schumann is one of the things I already have (and enjoy).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 01:34:26 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 17, 2019, 12:23:21 PM
That would be (almost) my list of classic performances. I'd substitute Solti's Sixth for Szell's (although I love that one too and, in fact, was in the audience at one of those performances in 1967) and Ormandy's 10th for Rattle's (hate it). Ormandy really digs into the emotional depths of the last movement. Rattle is just meh.

Sarge

Ah, that's it! Ormandy is the classic-classic 10th, of course.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 17, 2019, 01:45:25 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 17, 2019, 01:34:26 PM
Ah, that's it! Ormandy is the classic-classic 10th, of course.

Yes, even though it lacks Cooke's later thoughts about the movements, it remains a powerful version!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 17, 2019, 03:21:35 PM
I enjoy all the recordings everyone mentioned above.

My favorite Mahler 9th is this one:

[asin]B000ENC6VE[/asin]

Just a really atmospheric, edgy recording with a focus rarely heard. THe audience noise is a bit upsetting at times but that's about it. It has been OOP for a long time but you can listen to it on youtube for free.

Another recording I really like is Chailly's RCO M3, gloriously played and recorded.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 17, 2019, 05:04:32 PM
Actually, Maderna's is a joint favourite with the Ludwig version. Edgy and atmospheric is a good description.

For the Szell 6th (Sony) the volume must be turned up quite a bit for best effect. The recording is light in bass. But what an edge of seat performance !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on January 18, 2019, 04:21:34 AM
I'll throw in Ancerl for the 9th and Reiner for the 4th   8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 18, 2019, 04:25:21 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 17, 2019, 08:26:54 AM
I thought it was noteworthy mainly from the standpoint of hearing the orchestral songs stripped down to string quartet.  But maybe I am alone in being interested in that kind of thing.  I would like to hear more recordings with different singers.

Mahler composed versions with piano accompaniment for all the songs in this album. They are available from various singers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 18, 2019, 05:08:55 AM
Quote from: San Antone on January 17, 2019, 08:26:54 AM
I thought it was noteworthy mainly from the standpoint of hearing the orchestral songs stripped down to string quartet.  But maybe I am alone in being interested in that kind of thing.  I would like to hear more recordings with different singers.
While there is nothing wrong with SQ arrangements, it is hardly a totally new perspective because all these songs so exist in "officially stripped down" (or rather often original) versions for piano and singer. For a bunch there are also chamber arrangements by prominent musicians from the Schoenberg circle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 18, 2019, 05:57:00 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 18, 2019, 04:21:34 AM
I'll throw in Ancerl for the 9th and Reiner for the 4th   8)

I think Reiner is a good challenge for the Szell as "the Classic". (Ancerl, while I think it's one of the GREAT recordings of the 9th, never was a 'classic'; it might, however, be in the running for Top 9th in the "Dark Horse" cycle. :-))

I think we can see generational lines along the Ludwig vs. Haitink question in the 9th, or Reiner vs. Szell in the 4th, or Bernstein vs. Abbado/Chicago in the 7th, or even Ormandy vs. Rattle in the 10th.

One has to balance recency bias (very much relatively speaking) with UR-golden-age imprint.

OK, List as modified:

1.) Kubelik (https://amzn.to/2CqoMTg)/BRSO/DG [lock]
2.) ___________________ Mehta/WPh/Decca vs. Klemperer/Philharmonia/EMI*
3.) Horenstein (https://amzn.to/2T29JGy)/LSO/Kancha-Unicorn Bernstein? Abbado/Lucerne?
4.) Szell (https://amzn.to/2MgfFZR)/Raskin/Cleveland/Sony [lock]
5.) ___________________Chailly/RCO/Decca or Bernstein/DG or Barbirolli/EMI?
6.) ___________________Barbirolli/EMI or Bernstein/NY?
7.) ___________________Abbado/Chicago/DG or Bernstein/NY?
8.) Solti (https://amzn.to/2MfuvzQ)/CSO/Decca [lock]
DLvdE.) Klemperer (https://amzn.to/2Mh4jEP)/EMI [lock] (or Walter/Ferrier/Patzak/Decca, after all? A MASSIVELY overrated recording, but that's, if anything, suggesting it does belong here. Would free up Klemperer for No.2)
9.) __________________Karajan II/Berlin/DG or Haitink/RCO I or Walter/Columbia
10.) Ormandy/Philadelphia/Sony
[/quote]














No.#Modern Classic CycleUR-Classic Cycle
No.1Kubelik/BRSO??-??
No.2Mehta/WPhKlemperer?
No.3Bernstein/NY/DGHorenstein
No.4SzellReiner
No.5ChaillyBarbirolli
No.6Barbirolli??-??
No.7Abbado/CSOBernstein/NYP
No.8SoltiAbravanel
DLvdEKlemperer/Wunderlich/LudwigWalter/Patzak/Ferrier
No.9Haitink/RCO ILudwig? Walter*
No.10Rattle IIOrmandy

Or the modern classic LvdE is actually Bernstein/King/Fischer-Dieskau and the classic is Klemperer?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on January 18, 2019, 06:49:23 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 18, 2019, 05:57:00 AM
Or the modern classic LvdE is actually Bernstein/King/Fischer-Dieskau and the classic is Klemperer?
What about Haitink/Baker/King?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 18, 2019, 06:51:45 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 18, 2019, 06:49:23 AM
What about Haitink/Baker/King?

+1 The best Das Lied I've heard and I own most of them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 18, 2019, 06:58:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 18, 2019, 06:51:45 AM
+1 The best Das Lied I've heard and I own most of them.

A fine performance but I still go with Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on January 18, 2019, 07:10:41 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 18, 2019, 06:58:40 AM
A fine performance but I still go with Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig.
Perhaps it would be more realistically offered as the classic, instead of the modern classic, at 55 years old. The Baker/King/Haitink is no spring chicken either, of course.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 18, 2019, 07:20:32 AM
Quote from: North Star on January 18, 2019, 07:10:41 AM
Perhaps it would be more realistically offered as the classic, instead of the modern classic, at 55 years old. The Baker/King/Haitink is no spring chicken either, of course.

Haitink/Baker/King is 43 years old (rec. 9/75) and I agree with your point. The Haitink No 9 (rec 6/69) is 48 (soon to be 49) years old, the Ludwig recording dates from 1959 only a decade older. This distinction between 'classic' and 'modern classic' is a bit iffy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 18, 2019, 07:25:47 AM
Ceterum censeo that no baritone version of Das Lied can ever become the main recommendation or classic!

@San Antone, here are the Wayfarer songs in chamber versions

[asin]B000084I33[/asin]

There are also choral versions  of some pieces like the adagietto or "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" (I think by Clytus Gottwald or Eric Ericson, maybe also others) but cannot point to a recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 18, 2019, 07:31:44 AM
Quote from: Biffo on January 18, 2019, 07:20:32 AM
Haitink/Baker/King is 43 years old (rec. 9/75) and I agree with your point. The Haitink No 9 (rec 6/69) is 48 (soon to be 49) years old, the Ludwig recording dates from 1959 only a decade older. This distinction between 'classic' and 'modern classic' is a bit iffy.

All of these distinctions are a bit iffy.  :) But we muddle through.

Amazing, though, if you put it like that: That the Haitink 9th that so many of us consider a stalwart recording is half a century old, already! And yes, Haitink/King/Baker is in what... among the top 4 classic Das Lied recordings. And also still among the best.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 18, 2019, 07:52:16 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 18, 2019, 07:31:44 AM
All of these distinctions are a bit iffy.  :) But we muddle through.

Amazing, though, if you put it like that: That the Haitink 9th that so many of us consider a stalwart recording is half a century old, already! And yes, Haitink/King/Baker is in what... among the top 4 classic Das Lied recordings. And also still among the best.

Yes indeed and I got my arithmetic wrong - should have said '49 soon to be 50'.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 18, 2019, 09:23:41 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 18, 2019, 07:25:47 AM
Ceterum censeo that no baritone version of Das Lied can ever become the main recommendation or classic!

I, in turn, propose that that's a bunch of malarkey. Why would that be? It's as viable a choice... and certainly King/Dieskau has attained that status. On average, I'd even say that tenor/baritone versions tend to be more successfu. (Dickie/FiDi, ehm... Gerhaher/Vogt...) although then again perhaps not, because some really great ones (King/Baker, Wunderlich/Ludwig, arguably Kment/Baker) are T/A. Inconclusive. But the thing's called "Das Lied von der Erde. Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte"). Von Gustav Mahler", so I don't see why a version for tenor and low voice must necessarily have a mezzo/alto fulfill that duty lest it be considered a priori inferior.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 18, 2019, 11:03:09 AM
 Not inferior, but different enough for personal preferences to show a marked bias. For my taste, the mezzo/contralto voice has a warmth, sensuality and luminosity that the baritone voice often (not always) lacks. Entirely subjective of course... 0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 18, 2019, 01:24:30 PM
It's true, the problem is usually the tenor anyway.
But I have heard Fi-Di with Kletzki? and the Rattle and disliked both. As the former is often recommended but does not come close to merely decent alto/tenor versions, so I decided no to waste anymore time with it. If one wants less than 5 recordings of the piece, I would not get a tenor/baritone.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 18, 2019, 02:43:03 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 18, 2019, 09:23:41 AM
I, in turn, propose that that's a bunch of malarkey. Why would that be? It's as viable a choice... and certainly King/Dieskau has attained that status. On average, I'd even say that tenor/baritone versions tend to be more successfu. (Dickie/FiDi, ehm... Gerhaher/Vogt...) although then again perhaps not, because some really great ones (King/Baker, Wunderlich/Ludwig, arguably Kment/Baker) are T/A. Inconclusive. But the thing's called "Das Lied von der Erde. Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte"). Von Gustav Mahler", so I don't see why a version for tenor and low voice must necessarily have a mezzo/alto fulfill that duty lest it be considered a priori inferior.

I call bulls*** on your malarkey. :) Mahler made it an alternative to increase prospects for the work being widely performed. I put it at the same level as the Brahms "(oder Bratsche)" specified in the Brahms Clarinet Sonatas. Yes, it is a good vehicle for a viola soloists, but not the preferred realization of the piece.

Das Lied von der Erde may be a good piece for a bass/baritone to sing, but a bass/baritone is not the best performer for the piece.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on January 18, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 18, 2019, 02:43:03 PM
I call bulls*** on your malarkey. :) Mahler made it an alternative to increase prospects for the work being widely performed. I put it at the same level as the Brahms "(oder Bratsche)" specified in the Brahms Clarinet Sonatas. Yes, it is a good vehicle for a viola soloists, but not the preferred realization of the piece.

Das Lied von der Erde may be a good piece for a bass/baritone to sing, but a bass/baritone is not the best performer for the piece.

I call malarkey on that
Of course I am a baritone...

This is probably the best male/male recording.
[asin]B003JC4E4Y[/asin]
Some reservations about the orchestra, but FW was better here than he was with Klemperer, and DFD better than he was with Bernstein.

No one seems to have mentioned the Reiner recording, which I have a fondness for because it was my first acquaintance with DLvdE.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on January 18, 2019, 03:27:10 PM
BTW, another recent (2017)entry into the sweepstakes
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Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 18, 2019, 03:38:04 PM
Quote from: JBS on January 18, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
I call malarkey on that
Of course I am a baritone...

This is probably the best male/male recording.
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Some reservations about the orchestra, but FW was better here than he was with Klemperer, and DFD better than he was with Bernstein.

No one seems to have mentioned the Reiner recording, which I have a fondness for because it was my first acquaintance with DLvdE.

I have always found DFD unpalatable, more or less in anything.

In any case, my interest in this issue is limited, because I always found the best parts of DLVDE are when no one is singing...

I've only listened to three that I remember, Karajan/Berlin, Boulez/WPO, Barenboim/Chicago. I liked Karajan best, Boulez runner up.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61yTiCiFyTL.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 18, 2019, 08:39:30 PM
...I've finally realised the Kubelik no.1 you all agree on is not the one I have or was talking about.

The one I have is live and on the Audite label, and more than one source praised it as even better than Kubelik's DG recording. I think our current author was one of those sources...

Honestly, it's tiring enough listening to a Mahler symphony, never mind working out which versions to own.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 19, 2019, 12:33:34 AM
Well, you can also have DLvdE with neither a contralto nor a baritone  ;D:

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Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 19, 2019, 01:07:48 AM
People are of course free to like the baritone version. For some reason I got the Fi-Di/Dickie instead of the one with King. Probably someone loudly preferred it on the internet... So I might have missed the best version.
Of course I am simply used to the alto version, having listened to it for more than 20 years almost exlusively. But I think there are musical reasons, too, it sounds better with a higher voice (many "altos" who sange it have actually been mezzos), there is more variety in the whole with a male and a female voice.
Except for the first one, the tenor songs are trifles, so for me the core is how does the tenor manage the extremely demanding first song and what do I prefer in "Der Abschied (which is almost half of the piece, after all). That's alto/mezzo for me and "Von der Schönheit" also is far more seductive for this phallo-logokrat with a female voice.

Regardless of clear personal preferences I think it can be defended to have only/mainly alto versions when concerned with "classic" recordings or standard recommendations.
There are so many between "classics" like Klemperer, Ferrier/Walter,  another of Walter's, Haitink, maybe Reiner, maybe a more recent one in good sound and "alternatives like the live Kubelik/Kmentt/Baker, maybe the Kleiber (Kmentt/Wunderlich) or other dark horses that the baritone versions would rank somewhere between Das Klagende Lied and the first symphony with Blumine in my preferences and recommendations.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 19, 2019, 01:28:15 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 18, 2019, 09:23:41 AM
I, in turn, propose that that's a bunch of malarkey. Why would that be? It's as viable a choice... and certainly King/Dieskau has attained that status. On average, I'd even say that tenor/baritone versions tend to be more successfu. (Dickie/FiDi, ehm... Gerhaher/Vogt...) although then again perhaps not, because some really great ones (King/Baker, Wunderlich/Ludwig, arguably Kment/Baker) are T/A. Inconclusive. But the thing's called "Das Lied von der Erde. Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte"). Von Gustav Mahler", so I don't see why a version for tenor and low voice must necessarily have a mezzo/alto fulfill that duty lest it be considered a priori inferior.

That is the publisher's title not Mahler's. The baritone option doesn't appear anywhere in the manuscripts of either the orchestral or piano versions. Mahler muddied the waters by writing on the copyist's score next to the second movement 'if needs be, can also be sung by a baritone'. It is debatable that this remark applies to movements 4 & 6.

At the first performance in Munich Bruno Walter used a tenor and alto but for the second performance in Vienna he used a tenor and baritone; afterwards he said 'Never again'. Later he said he thought that had Mahler lived he would have discarded the baritone option.

I vastly prefer an alto. If you have to have a baritone go for Thomas Hampson with Rattle. His recording with Tilson-Thomas is ravishingly beautiful with superb playing from the SFSO but the performance as a whole is bland. I can't listen to Bernstein/Fischer-Dieskau, I find it gruesome. If you want DF-D go for his recording with Kletzki; for Bernstein try his later version with Ludwig and Kollo (though I am not a Kollo fan).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 19, 2019, 01:38:43 AM
That's interesting, Biffo. You also prefer an an alto but you recommend for the baritone the two recordings I have heard and disliked sufficiently so that I decided not to bother with baritones in this music.
I got rid of the Rattle/Hampson years ago and the Kletzki/Fi-Di is on my "not sure I'll keep shelf"...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 19, 2019, 01:51:25 AM
I got the FiDi with Kletzki as a bonus with the conductor's Fourth Symphony (which was what I was really looking for, as it was the first Mahler recording I ever listened to on LP in my childhood—my dad had it on LP). I was won over by FiDi in this, and think he is just wonderful in "Der Abschied" (which, to be honest, is the only movement of DLvdE I really enjoy—the rest of the work bores me to tears  :-[). I still see Ludwig / Klemperer as the nec plus ultra, but can say that FiDi convinced me of the relative merits of the baritone version (I haven't listened to the FiDi / Bernstein, as I really don't like that conductor in Mahler).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on January 19, 2019, 02:21:35 AM
Quote from: ritter on January 19, 2019, 01:51:25 AM
I got the FiDi with Kletzki as a bonus with the conductor's Fourth Symphony (which was what I was really looking for, as it was the first Mahler recording I ever listened to on LP in my childhood—my dad had it on LP). I was won over by FiDi in this, and think he is just wonderful in "Der Abschied" (which, to be honest, is the only movement of DLvdE I really enjoy—the rest of the work bores me to tears  :-[). I still see Ludwig / Klemperer as the nec plus ultra, but can say that FiDi convinced me of the relative merits of the baritone version (I haven't listened to the FiDi / Bernstein, as I really don't like that conductor in Mahler).

Fischer-Dieskau was convinced that Mahler wrote Der Abschied with a baritone in mind though the evidence (probably not available to DF-D at the time) suggests otherwise.

As I said I vastly prefer an alto though I have four (at least) baritone versions I very rarely listen to them.

The Kletzki recording seems to have been released in various formats. I have it as a single disc. I acquired the 4th Symphony in a two-disc set coupled with Sibelius 2, a work I heard Kletzki conduct with the CBSO many years ago.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 19, 2019, 04:31:12 AM
Yesterday I listened to the Ninth Symphony performed by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Leopold Ludwig in the 1959 recording now available on YouTube.  It is a remastering which has eliminated the somewhat high hiss on the original vinyl record.

I bought that record over 50 years ago, and probably have not heard it since the late 1970's.  So revisiting it evoked various memories and associations, especially when the YouTube screen showed the cover of the original album box, and the last movement was playing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 19, 2019, 01:22:20 PM
Quote from: Biffo on January 19, 2019, 02:21:35 AM
Fischer-Dieskau was convinced that Mahler wrote Der Abschied with a baritone in mind though the evidence (probably not available to DF-D at the time) suggests otherwise.

As I said I vastly prefer an alto though I have four (at least) baritone versions I very rarely listen to them.

The Kletzki recording seems to have been released in various formats. I have it as a single disc. I acquired the 4th Symphony in a two-disc set coupled with Sibelius 2, a work I heard Kletzki conduct with the CBSO many years ago.
I am sorry I have trouble listening to this work without the alto. A quick glance at Wikipedia shows 49 recordings with tenor/alto and only 10 with baritone, with DFD singing in 3 of them if you can believe it (and Thomas Hampson in 2 of them). So between DFD and Hampson they occupy half of the tenor/baritone recordings which is pretty crazy if you ask me.

The list of mezzo/altos in these recordings do read like the hall of fame of soloists. Some others I enjoyed over the years are:

Nan Merriman/Ernst Haefliger (Van Beinem or Jochum): pretty cool you get the same two soloists with 2 very different conductors
Michelle DeYoung/Jon Villars (Oue): Probably the version to go to if I have to choose a version recorded in the last 10-15 yrs or so. If you enjoy hearing the orchestra this is your version. The Minnesota Orch. sounds stunning in this recording, especially in the interlude in the final song. Of course the soloists are no slouch either.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 19, 2019, 11:44:45 PM
It's not crazy, rather it seems an indication that two prominent baritones are very fond of the piece and most of the rest of the world (like you and me) clearly prefers the alto version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on January 20, 2019, 08:33:51 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 19, 2019, 11:44:45 PM
It's not crazy, rather it seems an indication that two prominent baritones are very fond of the piece and most of the rest of the world (like you and me) clearly prefers the alto version.

Three, actually:  Two of the other recordings are by Gerharer.

But perhaps the "preference" is simply a self-reinforcing loop.  If a conductor/label think most people prefer the alto version,  they'll tend to look for an alto on the assumption that is more saleable. 

Of course, the true way to  solve the question is to get a male alto to take on the job.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 20, 2019, 09:18:19 AM
Sure, but that the preference is self-reinforcing does not at all mean that it was not justified in the first place (before the re-inforcing). The most famous baritone (at least as a singer of lieder) of the last 60 years made two recordings for major labels, the older of which was recorded almost 60 years ago when probably not more than a handful of the recordings with alto were around. So there was plenty of time for the preferences to change.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2019, 09:20:41 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 20, 2019, 08:33:51 AM


Of course, the true way to  solve the question is to get a male alto to take on the job.

;D ??? ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 20, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: JBS on January 20, 2019, 08:33:51 AM
Of course, the true way to  solve the question is to get a male alto to take on the job.

The horror!...the horror!

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 20, 2019, 12:23:27 PM
The recording catalogue is absolutely full of examples of musicians deciding that actually they'd rather like to perform something despite not being in line with the composer's stated preferences as to use of instrument. Including cases where the composer agreed to a 2nd option in an effort to improve the chances of performance.

I don't see why Mahler singers would be immune to this effect.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 20, 2019, 03:52:24 PM
Quote from: Madiel on January 20, 2019, 12:23:27 PM
The recording catalogue is absolutely full of examples of musicians deciding that actually they'd rather like to perform something despite not being in line with the composer's stated preferences as to use of instrument. Including cases where the composer agreed to a 2nd option in an effort to improve the chances of performance.

I don't see why Mahler singers would be immune to this effect.

There is no arguing with that. I certainly don't hesitate to listen to a piece performed in a manner which is not quite what the composer expected or considered ideal if I find the result musically successful. Mahler expressed preference for an alto but authorized a Bass/Baritone as an acceptable substitute.

My preference is not really tied to Mahler's intention, so much as to the fact that I don't find bass/baritone vocals attractive and much prefer the sound of an alto. In fact, I prefer Schubert's Wintrese sung by an alto, even though that is certainly not what Schubert intended.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on January 20, 2019, 04:36:06 PM
Parallel with this mini-topic is the use of boy singers for the dead brother in Das Klagende Lied.  I have read that Mahler dropped the idea in his later revision of the work.

What say ye to that idea?  I am thinking of Chailly's DECCA CD from 30 years ago with a boy singer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2019, 04:49:53 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 20, 2019, 03:52:24 PM
...In fact, I prefer Schubert's Wintrese sung by an alto, even though that is certainly not what Schubert intended.

Oh boy, you do have eclectic taste.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on January 20, 2019, 04:52:14 PM
Quote from: Cato on January 20, 2019, 04:36:06 PM
Parallel with this mini-topic is the use of boy singers for the dead brother in Das Klagende Lied.  I have read that Mahler dropped the idea in his later revision of the work.

What say ye to that idea?  I am thinking of Chailly's DECCA CD from 30 years ago with a boy singer.

Well, given that several recordings use the first part of the original in conjunction with the two parts of the revised version, I think it fair to say that Mahler's intentions with dKL are disregarded routinely.

When I suggested using a male alto, I had in mind Bernstein's use of a boy soprano in the Fourth Symphony. Most people think it didn't work, although I think it does work better than most people give it credit for.

I seem to remember a countertenor who recorded several Mahler songs, including the Wunderhorn song included in the Second Symphony, bit don't remember his name. (So did Hampson in his recording with MTT.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 20, 2019, 07:26:12 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 20, 2019, 04:49:53 PM
Oh boy, you do have eclectic taste.  ;D

Faesbaender's recording is very well regarded, no?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 20, 2019, 07:28:33 PM
Quote from: JBS on January 20, 2019, 04:52:14 PM
Well, given that several recordings use the first part of the original in conjunction with the two parts of the revised version, I think it fair to say that Mahler's intentions with dKL are disregarded routinely.

When I suggested using a male alto, I had in mind Bernstein's use of a boy soprano in the Fourth Symphony. Most people think it didn't work, although I think it does work better than most people give it credit for.
The character depicted in the Mahler 4 finale is a child, or at least child like. You can't say the same about the alto voice in DLVDE.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 21, 2019, 12:55:38 AM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 20, 2019, 07:26:12 PM
Faesbaender's recording is very well regarded, no?

Sure; I'd say that for a long time it was the only one that got any mainstream traction. Heck, I even like Christine Schaefer's Winterreise (http://a-fwd.to/3e3XInq). Not when it first came out, incidentally, but once I'd heard her in concert I 'got' it, what she was trying to do.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on January 21, 2019, 03:43:26 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 21, 2019, 12:55:38 AM
Sure; I'd say that for a long time it was the only one that got any mainstream traction. Heck, I even like Christine Schaefer's Winterreise (http://a-fwd.to/3e3XInq). Not when it first came out, incidentally, but once I'd heard her in concert I 'got' it, what she was trying to do.
I find Frau Schäfer's Winterreise superb.... :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 21, 2019, 10:22:05 AM
Quote from: ritter on January 21, 2019, 03:43:26 AM
I find Frau Schäfer's Winterreise superb.... :)

I also have and enjoy that one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 07, 2019, 03:33:17 PM
I was listening to the 7th recently and it occurred to me that I hadn't heard anyone articulate what I think it a commonsense interpretation of the symphony. I think that people have seen the first four movements as exploring the psychological effect of night on the psyche, but then have been disappointed by the perceived banality of the fifth movement. But ever since I have known the work I have always interpreted the fifth movement not as waking up to reality in the morning, but as a series of delusive and glorious dreams. So when Mahler described the movement as saying 'the world is mine!', he should have added '...in your dreams'!

Does anyone else understand it that way?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on March 08, 2019, 04:57:10 PM
Just added that Leopold Ludwig M9 to my Amazon wishlist. André's description of it as "the antithesis of all the neurotic farewells to the world we usually get" makes me think it might be right up my street. As I recently said on another thread, I've never bought into that maudlin notion that the Ninth is Mahler's "farewell." So an unsentimental reading (which is what I take André's meaning to be) would suit me just fine.

(And as I also said elsewhere, the Ninth continues to elude me somewhat. I love all of the others [well, except maybe the Eighth, but I'm hardly alone there], so my failure with this one - and I acknowledge that the failure is mine - continues to puzzle me.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on March 08, 2019, 05:08:10 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on March 08, 2019, 04:57:10 PM
Just added that Leopold Ludwig M9 to my Amazon wishlist. André's description of it as "the antithesis of all the neurotic farewells to the world we usually get" makes me think it might be right up my street. As I recently said on another thread, I've never bought into that maudlin notion that the Ninth is Mahler's "farewell." So an unsentimental reading (which is what I take André's meaning to be) would suit me just fine.

(And as I also said elsewhere, the Ninth continues to elude me somewhat. I love all of the others [well, except maybe the Eighth, but I'm hardly alone there], so my failure with this one - and I acknowledge that the failure is mine - continues to puzzle me.)

If you want nonneurotic Ninths, I suggest Zinman and Maderna.
Zinman sounds to me like a serene ascent to the celestial spheres, so it is not exactly a non-farewell, but certainly not angsty.

The Eighth is a problem because there is no one sure great recording. All of them have flaws.  It's a piece with dozens of moving parts and hundreds of performers, and human nature means inevitably in every performance something will be off.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2019, 05:26:57 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on March 08, 2019, 04:57:10 PM
Just added that Leopold Ludwig M9 to my Amazon wishlist. André's description of it as "the antithesis of all the neurotic farewells to the world we usually get" makes me think it might be right up my street. As I recently said on another thread, I've never bought into that maudlin notion that the Ninth is Mahler's "farewell." So an unsentimental reading (which is what I take André's meaning to be) would suit me just fine.

(And as I also said elsewhere, the Ninth continues to elude me somewhat. I love all of the others [well, except maybe the Eighth, but I'm hardly alone there], so my failure with this one - and I acknowledge that the failure is mine - continues to puzzle me.)

The 9th, along with the 3rd, are favorite Mahler symphonies. I think both represent a yin and yang in Mahler's oeuvre. They are both greatly contrasting symphonies with plenty to sink your teeth into. The 9th has had many great recordings over the years, but my favorite is Bernstein's on Deutsche Grammophon followed by the more 'emotionally-centered' (for lack of a better phrase) Chailly performance on Decca. I also greatly admire Haitink's first go-around with it on Philips. I'm not the biggest Mahler fan as, between my dad and I, he's actually the Mahlerian, but I can recommend performances of this symphony, because I do love it and think it's one of his greatest achievements along with the afore mentioned 3rd, but also the song cycles and Das Lied von der Erde. Of course, I agree that the 9th is far from Mahler's 'farewell to the world' as he didn't know how much time he had left, but I do think it's a deeply troubled work that, once it gets you hooked in, can take you on an emotional and remarkable journey.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on March 08, 2019, 08:07:34 PM
Quote from: JBS on March 08, 2019, 05:08:10 PM
If you want nonneurotic Ninths, I suggest Zinman and Maderna.
Zinman sounds to me like a serene ascent to the celestial spheres, so it is not exactly a non-farewell, but certainly not angsty.

Thanks, Jeffrey! Appreciate the recommendations. I have the Maderna recording - I should dig it back out. I think I've only listened to it once.

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2019, 05:26:57 PM
The 9th, along with the 3rd, are favorite Mahler symphonies. I think both represent a yin and yang in Mahler's oeuvre. They are both greatly contrasting symphonies with plenty to sink your teeth into. The 9th has had many great recordings over the years, but my favorite is Bernstein's on Deutsche Grammophon followed by the more 'emotionally-centered' (for lack of a better phrase) Chailly performance on Decca. I also greatly admire Haitink's first go-around with it on Philips. I'm not the biggest Mahler fan as, between my dad and I, he's actually the Mahlerian, but I can recommend performances of this symphony, because I do love it and think it's one of his greatest achievements along with the afore mentioned 3rd, but also the song cycles and Das Lied von der Erde. Of course, I agree that the 9th is far from Mahler's 'farewell to the world' as he didn't know how much time he had left, but I do think it's a deeply troubled work that, once it gets you hooked in, can take you on an emotional and remarkable journey.

The Third is my favorite, too; I'm not sure which one is up there with it - possibly the Seventh.

And thank you for the recommendations as well, M.I. I've heard the Bernstein and Haitink recordings - again once each, I believe. I think I have a mental block against the Bernstein: I always think about how people say there's an egregious miscue in it (during the final movement, I think it is) allegedly caused by an audience member having a medical emergency. So I'm unable to consider it a possible "go-to" performance. My hangup, I guess.

But I haven't heard Chailly. I'll keep it in mind.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2019, 08:10:04 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on March 08, 2019, 08:07:34 PMThe Third is my favorite, too; I'm not sure which one is up there with it - possibly the Seventh.

And thank you for the recommendations as well, M.I. I've heard the Bernstein and Haitink recordings - again once each, I believe. I think I have a mental block against the Bernstein: I always think about how people say there's an egregious miscue in it (during the final movement, I think it is) allegedly caused by an audience member having a medical emergency. So I'm unable to consider it a possible "go-to" performance. My hangup, I guess.

But I haven't heard Chailly. I'll keep it in mind.

You're welcome. I think you'll find the Chailly may be right up your alley.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on March 08, 2019, 08:43:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 08, 2019, 08:10:04 PM
You're welcome. I think you'll find the Chailly may be right up your alley.
Of the completish sets I have or have heard I think the Chailly is the best overall. Second: Boulez and Levine (which is not complete).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on March 08, 2019, 09:21:15 PM
Quote from: Ken B on March 08, 2019, 08:43:43 PM
Of the completish sets I have or have heard I think the Chailly is the best overall. Second: Boulez and Levine (which is not complete).

Yeah, my dad thinks highly of the Chailly as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on March 09, 2019, 01:00:47 AM
Hmm. I had been thinking that with Mahler I would pick up symphonies one at a time over time, but I'm increasingly giving consideration to Chailly. This is partly because I like his Brahms so much.

And partly because I think the covers are nice, though that's only true of the individual releases!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ken B on March 09, 2019, 06:28:26 AM
Quote from: Madiel on March 09, 2019, 01:00:47 AM
Hmm. I had been thinking that with Mahler I would pick up symphonies one at a time over time, but I'm increasingly giving consideration to Chailly. This is partly because I like his Brahms so much.

And partly because I think the covers are nice, though that's only true of the individual releases!
For me it was a no brainer, as it was a special edition in Canada,at about $25 US. The sound is outstanding.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on March 09, 2019, 09:38:51 AM
Quote from: Madiel on March 09, 2019, 01:00:47 AM
Hmm. I had been thinking that with Mahler I would pick up symphonies one at a time over time, but I'm increasingly giving consideration to Chailly. This is partly because I like his Brahms so much.

And partly because I think the covers are nice, though that's only true of the individual releases!
Some of the individual releases also have interesting fillers but the box is more economical. (I have not heard any of his Mahler, I think.) The same is true of the Gielen on Haenssler, again only in the individual releases.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on March 09, 2019, 09:42:07 AM
Quote from: JBS on March 08, 2019, 05:08:10 PM
If you want nonneurotic Ninths, I suggest Zinman and Maderna.
Maderna's 9th (BBC) is great but I remember it as quite intense.  I have not heard Zinman. Klemperer is (too) slow in the Burleske but also quite "objective". So is Gielen (there are at least two recordings), in better sound, with a slowish, non-hysterical Burleske and a flowing, rather "cool" finale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 09, 2019, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Ken B on March 09, 2019, 06:28:26 AM
For me it was a no brainer, as it was a special edition in Canada,at about $25 US. The sound is outstanding.
I would say Chailly is hard to beat also.

Among modern cycles I would pick Chailly, Gielen, and Bertini. All very different each equally convincing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on March 09, 2019, 12:42:40 PM
Righto. Investigation of Chailly and Gielen is on my to-do list.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 09, 2019, 06:43:44 PM
Generally have a high opinion of Chailly's Mahler, and especially his Bruckner cycle. Haven't heard his Brahms, although I have it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on March 10, 2019, 09:27:10 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 09, 2019, 12:01:21 PM
I would say Chailly is hard to beat also.

Among modern cycles I would pick Chailly, Gielen, and Bertini. All very different each equally convincing.

Would Tennstedt and Inbal count as modern?  I would add them.  In fact, in terms of maintaining an evenly high level of quality over the length of the cycle, I would point to Inbal.  Inbal has no hits, meaning no individual performance that is clearly above the rest, but they are consistently high quality, and none are misses. And Boulez is worth more than a short look.

Among very recent cycles, I would suggest taking a look at Nott/Bamberger Symphoniker. I think he shares Inbal's ability to maintain a high level of quality in every symphony.    There is also Stenz/Gurzenich Orch.-Koln, but I thought that was merely good, not great.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 10, 2019, 09:47:51 AM
Quote from: JBS on March 10, 2019, 09:27:10 AM
Would Tennstedt and Inbal count as modern?  I would add them.  In fact, in terms of maintaining an evenly high level of quality over the length of the cycle, I would point to Inbal.  Inbal has no hits, meaning no individual performance that is clearly above the rest, but they are consistently high quality, and none are misses. And Boulez is worth more than a short look.

Among very recent cycles, I would suggest taking a look at Nott/Bamberger Symphoniker. I think he shares Inbal's ability to maintain a high level of quality in every symphony.    There is also Stenz/Gurzenich Orch.-Koln, but I thought that was merely good, not great.
Inbal is pretty good, but really not distinctive in any way. But if you want a cycle to study the score with I would say it is as good as any as everything comes through beautifully. The Nott and Stenz are on my list to listen to, just have not felt the need to listen to Mahler at this very moment.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 07, 2019, 03:25:14 PM
Bump for a great composer.

I have gone in this past year from utter indifference to full-blown obsession with the music of Gustav Mahler. I think he is certainly one of the greatest composers to ever have lived, despite having only written a couple dozen works. Almost every single one of them is at least worthy, and most of them are phenomenal, important works of art. I think he is, alongside his younger friend Arnold Schoenberg, one of the most psychological composers in all classical music. His music is all symbols and archetypes and double meanings. Sometimes when listening to his music, I am almost embarrassed for Mahler the man, because he has laid down so much of his life in the music, and is almost "naked" on the pages of the score, but at the same time I am always in awe of Mahler the artist, as he has created with his sounds and symbols something so poignant, so universal that it speaks to me, a Millennial, born near a century after his death, on a direct, personal level. I think, barring all cultural differences, we would have gotten along.

When I was first turned off by (what I saw as) the grandiosity and self-importance of his music, I think I was completely missing the point. Whatever his lofty ambitions (to paraphrase his words to a young Jean Sibelius, "a symphony must embrace the whole world"), I think he was always writing a more personal, psychical drama. Likewise, I think people are wrong when they say that he is melodramatic or that he is a complainer (as far as his music is concerned anyway; I'm not familiar enough with his real-life persona to say). He is a realist; a magical realist. His music reflects his world, no more, no less. He is one of the larger-than-life characters in all music, alongside Beethoven, Wagner, John Coltrane, Bob Dylan, David Bowie, etc etc.

Anyway, gushy essay over. I am listening to, for the first time, and enjoying the Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony recording of Mahler's 1st symphony. The 3rd and 4th movements of this performance, I must say, are the best I've ever heard; only Kubelik's (wildly different) approach comes close. I think it really shows that Walter was a good friend of Mahler's, and idolized him as a conductor.

I have heard all of his symphonies but one: the 9th. I'm saving it for a later date and spending time with the other 8 (and DLvdE, perhaps his greatest work...?) for now. I will likely hear first the Bernstein/NYPO on Sony, as I love the rest of the set. Aside from this, what are some great recordings? I plan on checking out the Karajan/BPO live as I've heard great things about it.

Final note: I think his music does not benefit from overexposure. His symphonies must be taken in small doses, infrequently, or they can lose their power. Speaking for myself, anyway.

Well, I could go on and on about Mahler, but I'm going to stop now. Anyone else listening to his music lately...?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on September 07, 2019, 04:53:19 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 07, 2019, 03:25:14 PM
Bump for a great composer.

I have gone in this past year from utter indifference to full-blown obsession with the music of Gustav Mahler. I think he is certainly one of the greatest composers to ever have lived, despite having only written a couple dozen works. Almost every single one of them is at least worthy, and most of them are phenomenal, important works of art. I think he is, alongside his younger friend Arnold Schoenberg, one of the most psychological composers in all classical music. His music is all symbols and archetypes and double meanings. Sometimes when listening to his music, I am almost embarrassed for Mahler the man, because he has laid down so much of his life in the music, and is almost "naked" on the pages of the score, but at the same time I am always in awe of Mahler the artist, as he has created with his sounds and symbols something so poignant, so universal that it speaks to me, a Millennial, born near a century after his death, on a direct, personal level. I think, barring all cultural differences, we would have gotten along.

When I was first turned off by (what I saw as) the grandiosity and self-importance of his music, I think I was completely missing the point. Whatever his lofty ambitions (to paraphrase his words to a young Jean Sibelius, "a symphony must embrace the whole world"), I think he was always writing a more personal, psychical drama. Likewise, I think people are wrong when they say that he is melodramatic or that he is a complainer (as far as his music is concerned anyway; I'm not familiar enough with his real-life persona to say). He is a realist; a magical realist. His music reflects his world, no more, no less. He is one of the larger-than-life characters in all music, alongside Beethoven, Wagner, John Coltrane, Bob Dylan, David Bowie, etc etc.

Anyway, gushy essay over. I am listening to, for the first time, and enjoying the Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony recording of Mahler's 1st symphony. The 3rd and 4th movements of this performance, I must say, are the best I've ever heard; only Kubelik's (wildly different) approach comes close. I think it really shows that Walter was a good friend of Mahler's, and idolized him as a conductor.

I have heard all of his symphonies but one: the 9th. I'm saving it for a later date and spending time with the other 8 (and DLvdE, perhaps his greatest work...?) for now. I will likely hear first the Bernstein/NYPO on Sony, as I love the rest of the set. Aside from this, what are some great recordings? I plan on checking out the Karajan/BPO live as I've heard great things about it.

Final note: I think his music does not benefit from overexposure. His symphonies must be taken in small doses, infrequently, or they can lose their power. Speaking for myself, anyway.

Well, I could go on and on about Mahler, but I'm going to stop now. Anyone else listening to his music lately...?

That is the thing about Mahler.  We are sort of like Roy Neary from Close Encounters of the Third Kind where everyone around us that we've known all our lives doesn't seem to understand what it is we've been privy to.  At first, I didn't like his music but when the light bulb went off, it was all consuming.  I've heard the same with others.  It is hard to explain other than to say he is probably the single most transcending composer ever.   For me, he was life changing, I hear that often in my line of work and there are many other very good (arguably great) composers you will never hear them described that way but Mahler's name is commonly referenced. 

I totally related to your post and how you described coming to understand his music.  I completely agree, he should be savored.  Not a fan of large orchestras putting on a symphony cycle in a month (LA Phil, Dudamel) I just believe this is music that should be experienced over years.  He is also one of those composers that I feel the need to revisit in different guises (interpretations).  There is no perfect version - his music supersedes all interpretations I have ever heard of it.  Some get it right in some places but none get it right throughout.  I keep hoping but haven't felt that yet.  I also lament the loss of his first four juvenilia symphonies that predate his mature "Titan" Symphony and hoping they might one day surface (I'm a dreamer and I know it's very, very unlikely).  Even if they are flawed, I haven't heard a single work of his that I didn't feel enriched from in some way. 

I do find his legacy very rich and strong with modern composers and in that I find enduring satisfaction.  It might not be overt, but it is detectable. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on September 08, 2019, 01:48:01 AM
Gradually going through the Gielen set. And while I wouldn't qualify for full-blown obsession, I do generally agree with you and find Mahler an incredibly interesting composer. Who is best dosed on very occasionally.

Point of order, the "young" Jean Sibelius was only 5 years younger than Mahler. They're basically peers, though utterly different from each other.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 08, 2019, 04:09:36 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 08, 2019, 01:48:01 AM
Gradually going through the Gielen set. And while I wouldn't qualify for full-blown obsession, I do generally agree with you and find Mahler an incredibly interesting composer. Who is best dosed on very occasionally.

Point of order, the "young" Jean Sibelius was only 5 years younger than Mahler. They're basically peers, though utterly different from each other.

That's fair. They do both represent the same turn-of-the-century era, though indeed in completely different ways. A 5-year age gap can be a big difference, but in this case both were at roughly similar stages in their careers.

How do you like the Gielen set? I've heard nothing but great things about the guy, but have heard none of his music. The only Mahler cycle I have is the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony, but I have tons of additional individual recordings of the various symphonies. I think I would benefit from an additional full cycle, I'm thinking Bertini or Kubelik, but I need to pace myself, maybe sometime next year.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on September 08, 2019, 05:08:40 AM
I'm attempting to reply and the site is going haywire. 403 Forbidden error.

Let me try again within this post and some plain text...

So far so good, though I'm the exact opposite: I have fairly few individual releases to compare with, some of which I haven't listened to for years and couldn't really tell you what they're like, and bought Gielen on the basis of reviews.

Some of the individual releases I do know well enough to remember, I haven't yet got to that work in Gielen's set so I'm not much use to you. Thus far I've only listened to the first 3 symphonies, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen and Des Knaben Wunderhorn.

I definitely got a lot out of the disc which has the Knaben Wunderhorn songs on it, and having Urlicht as the final song was... just magic. That was the transcendent moment thus far.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 08, 2019, 10:11:13 AM
Awesome. Well, enjoy, my friend. You're in for a treat with the 4th, if you like the Wunderhorn songs. Mahler's 4th is the one that made me re-evaluate his music in the first place, as before that I'd only ever heard the 8th, and I was under the impression that Mahler was all doom & gloom & bombast. When I heard the 4th I realized that the key to Mahler's music was subtlety. It may still be my favorite, though I also love 1, 2, and 5 a great deal. I found 3, 6, 7, and especially 8 to be more challenging. I love all of the Lieder that I've heard. Hearing the Lieder cycles was what convinced me that Mahler was truly an important composer.

I do like what I've heard with Gielen. I think you probably made a good choice with his cycle, though there are too damn many out there for any one to be a definitive choice. Plus, the nature of his music rewards varying interpretations, I think.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 08, 2019, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: Madiel on September 08, 2019, 05:08:40 AM
I'm attempting to reply and the site is going haywire. 403 Forbidden error.

I'm having the same problems. And the site is sloooooooooooow, for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 08, 2019, 12:44:23 PM
GMG appears to be suffering serious server issues. This has been an intermittent problem ever since I joined up last month. I hope these issues are able to be overcome soon. This is a great site.

I listened to Klemperer's Das Lied von der Erde earlier. It was good, but I think I was not quite in the right mood. Anyway, I kept comparing it against the Haitink/RCO that I know and love. I'm sure I'll return in due time. Now, I really want to get my hands on one of Bruno Walter's DLvdE recordings. Someone should tell me which is the one to get...? Also, are there any fans here of the Reiner/Chicago DLvdE? I haven't heard it but I love his Mahler 4th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on September 08, 2019, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Madiel on September 08, 2019, 05:08:40 AM
I'm attempting to reply and the site is going haywire. 403 Forbidden error.

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 08, 2019, 12:44:23 PM
GMG appears to be suffering serious server issues. This has been an intermittent problem ever since I joined up last month. I hope these issues are able to be overcome soon. This is a great site.

Please see the "Bug report" thread in GMG News. Rob is on the case.

(But now, back to Mahler.  :) )

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on September 08, 2019, 01:05:55 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 08, 2019, 12:44:23 PM
GMG appears to be suffering serious server issues. This has been an intermittent problem ever since I joined up last month. I hope these issues are able to be overcome soon. This is a great site.

I listened to Klemperer's Das Lied von der Erde earlier. It was good, but I think I was not quite in the right mood. Anyway, I kept comparing it against the Haitink/RCO that I know and love. I'm sure I'll return in due time. Now, I really want to get my hands on one of Bruno Walter's DLvdE recordings. Someone should tell me which is the one to get...? Also, are there any fans here of the Reiner/Chicago DLvdE? I haven't heard it but I love his Mahler 4th.

I posted a comment in the main listening thread in reply to yours there...
But in respect to your post here...
I have Walter's recording with the NYPO [or the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, depending on which re-issue you look at], and it felt rather "meh" to me. Never heard the one with Ferrier and the VPO. Those seem to be the two main options, although there seem to be a couple of in-concert recordings available.

In fact, I have been underwhelmed by all of Walter's Mahler I have heard, except for the famous Vienna Ninth. Perhaps he was better before WWII?

As for Reiner..that recording was my very first Mahler recording, and I still like it very much, even with all the other recordings I have heard since then. Amazon shows an Archipel CD of a Reiner DLvdE in which Ludwig appears, not Forrester.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 08, 2019, 01:17:19 PM
Quote from: JBS on September 08, 2019, 01:05:55 PM
I posted a comment in the main listening thread in reply to yours there...
But in respect to your post here...
I have Walter's recording with the NYPO [or the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, depending on which re-issue you look at], and it felt rather "meh" to me. Never heard the one with Ferrier and the VPO. Those seem to be the two main options, although there seem to be a couple of in-concert recordings available.

In fact, I have been underwhelmed by all of Walter's Mahler I have heard, except for the famous Vienna Ninth. Perhaps he was better before WWII?

As for Reiner..that recording was my very first Mahler recording, and I still like it very much, even with all the other recordings I have heard since then. Amazon shows an Archipel CD of a Reiner DLvdE in which Ludwig appears, not Forrester.

Reiner's recording of the 4th was the first Mahler I ever listened to and enjoyed. He was a hell of a conductor, even if Mahler was not exactly his specialty.

Bruno Walter's Mahler 1st (Columbia SO, late 1950s-early 1960s, not sure specifics) is so good! I just got it yesterday, but I was really impressed. The finale finally made sense, and the 3rd movement was about as well done as I've ever heard it. As for his DLvdE, I think the Ferrier/VPO is the one I'm leaning toward, but I need to sample both. I think it's necessary to have one of his recordings considering he premièred the work. We don't always have the luxury of getting to hear recordings (especially in near-modern sound) from conductors who première such great works.

Thanks for the responses. I always appreciate having people to talk Mahler with, as my girlfriend can't stand Mahler and I don't have a lot of other friends into classical music, period.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: stingo on September 08, 2019, 03:00:37 PM
I am pleased (and feel very privileged) to say I've heard Mahler's symphonies live in concert. Most have been with the Philadelphia Orchestra, but the standout was a truly marvelous performance of the 9th with the Utah Symphony Orchestra. I believe it was Keith Lockhart's final outing with the ensemble that led to wondrous, luminous performance that lasted well after the last note was played.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 08, 2019, 04:02:58 PM
A great experience indeed, Stingo !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 08, 2019, 04:49:25 PM
Does anyone have a favorite singer of Mahler's Lieder? There are a few I really like: Christa Ludwig, whose Kindertotenlieder and Rückert-Lieder with Karajan/BPO is just phenomenal, and then Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, who recorded a great Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen with Kubelik and the Bavarian RSO. Hermann Prey's Wayfarer songs with Haitink and the RCO is also very good. Honorable mention to Janet Baker, who I need to hear more of. She is phenomenal on Haitink's Das Lied von der Erde, which is my favorite of the few recordings I've heard, largely because of her. There is a recording of her singing the Kindertotenlieder with the Israeli Philharmonic under the baton of Lenny Bernstein, as part of his Mahler symphony cycle that I own, and I have yet to hear it. I just might have to correct this in the morning.

Damn it, I was hoping I could avoid this, but I think I feel a slight resurgence coming on in my obsession with Mahler... I went a good month and a half without hearing any of his symphonies. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on September 08, 2019, 05:21:40 PM
As I said the Purchases thread, Hampson's Ruckertlieder is I think the best recording.

DFD did an excellent one singer version of Knaben Wunderhorn, as well as participate in one of the best two singer versions (with Schwarzkopf).

For the piano versions--which for most of the songs were the original versions--I like Gerharer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 09, 2019, 12:24:23 AM
I have not heard Hampson but I think most of the Rückert-Lieder are better with contralto. I have Hampsons Kindertotenlieder as filler for the 6th with Bernstein and his piano accompanied Wunderhorn. Overall, I'd say he is good but not extraordinary. My favorite Hampson are the early Lieder in Berio's orchestration. (I think by now there are some other recordings of at least some of these but 20 years ago it was the first and only one; of course there are several of the original piano version)
The older recordings of Ludwig with Klemperer (?) on EMI are also recommendable. Another great contralto, Maureen Forrester, has done the Rückert with Fricsay (maybe hard to find, they were a filler to something else?) and what might still be the best orchestral Wunderhorn (with Rehfuss and Prohaska on Vanguard). I don't care for Schwarzkopf.
Another great but probably hard to find Wunderhorn is Baker/Evans/Morris although this is rough in some spots and especially Sir Geraint's diction doesn't make it a first recommendation. He yields to noone in sometimes rough characterization and even comedy as in the ass-cuckoo-contest
One CD version has a very nice "Gesellenlieder" with Roland Herrmann, but Fi-Di is also good in them as is Ludwig (although I prefer a baritone to contralto in this cycle.
And Baker/Evans do some of the songs (Schildwache Nachtlied, Lied des Verfolgten im Turm, Vergebliche Mueh and the Hussar's farewell (Wohlan die Zeit ist 'kommen) as "duets" which is philologically wrong. (I still like the theatrical effect although some find it silly)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 09, 2019, 02:31:12 AM
Well, JBS, I ended up ordering that Hampson/Bernstein/DG Lieder disc after reading your praise for it. I like what I heard and I found it for very cheap. I'll be excited to explore that.

I really need to get my hands on a Mahler Lieder disc with piano accompaniment! Looks like Gerhaher may be the one to get. I was also looking at the Janet Baker disc on Hyperion (?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on September 09, 2019, 06:17:51 AM
I have the Janet Baker Hyperion disc, because it's the easiest way to get all of the early piano-based songs. To be honest I'm not sure that the songs besides Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (which is included) are anything special, and I mean the compositions rather than the performances. But if you want those songs it seems a good means of getting them.

I don't know what is "philologically" wrong with duet versions of certain songs that clearly have more than one character in them, someone will have to explain that one to me. It can't be any more wrong than having contraltos singing songs that have a male perspective.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 09, 2019, 08:03:25 AM
No. There is a clear difference. Many songs are singable by ONE male or ONE female voice (with transposition if octave won't work). But alternating singers as in an operatic duet would be clearly indicated in the score, it would say "duet for alto and baritone" not "song for middle/high/low voice" or whatever. There is nothing in Mahler's scores indicating that two singers should alternate in e.g. "Der Schildwache Nachtlied" (the guard and the girl he remembers or dreams about).
There are hundreds of songs with dialogues or more than one lyrical voice, like in Schubert's Erlkönig narrator, father, son and erl king are all sung by one singer. (There were orchestral arrangements using two in the early 20th century but even they didn't use 4 as the poem could suggest).
That's why it is wrong to alternate singers within one song. And I thought it was hardly done anymore nowadays. I have a soft spot for the practice in some songs (maybe because I got to know them with Baker/Evans) but it can also get silly to some extent. And there are other songs that are even more clearly dialogues where it is usually not done, e.g. "Das irdische Leben" and "Wo die schönen Trompeten blasen".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 09, 2019, 11:33:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 09, 2019, 12:24:23 AM
I have not heard Hampson but I think most of the Rückert-Lieder are better with contralto. I have Hampsons Kindertotenlieder as filler for the 6th with Bernstein and his piano accompanied Wunderhorn. Overall, I'd say he is good but not extraordinary. My favorite Hampson are the early Lieder in Berio's orchestration. (I think by now there are some other recordings of at least some of these but 20 years ago it was the first and only one; of course there are several of the original piano version)
The older recordings of Ludwig with Klemperer (?) on EMI are also recommendable. Another great contralto, Maureen Forrester, has done the Rückert with Fricsay (maybe hard to find, they were a filler to something else?) and what might still be the best orchestral Wunderhorn (with Rehfuss and Prohaska on Vanguard). I don't care for Schwarzkopf.
Another great but probably hard to find Wunderhorn is Baker/Evans/Morris although this is rough in some spots and especially Sir Geraint's diction doesn't make it a first recommendation. He yields to noone in sometimes rough characterization and even comedy as in the ass-cuckoo-contest
One CD version has a very nice "Gesellenlieder" with Roland Herrmann, but Fi-Di is also good in them as is Ludwig (although I prefer a baritone to contralto in this cycle.
And Baker/Evans do some of the songs (Schildwache Nachtlied, Lied des Verfolgten im Turm, Vergebliche Mueh and the Hussar's farewell (Wohlan die Zeit ist 'kommen) as "duets" which is philologically wrong. (I still like the theatrical effect although some find it silly)

+ 1 for the Forrester Rückert Lieder. She is in glorious voice and gets excellent support from Fricsay. It is available coupled with Prohaska's excellent Das Knaben Wunderhorn (Forrester again, with the equally superb Heinz Rehfuss) on the Praga label. This is one indispensable Mahler recording !

+ 1 too for the Wyn Morris Wunderhorn !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 10, 2019, 04:30:23 AM
As for the early songs, I have not heard Baker's on hyperion (rather late in her career, I believe). They are not essential pieces but with a composer who wrote so litte as Mahler it, they are nice to have. And some are not inferior to the slighter ones from the Wunderhorn collection (like Wer hat dies Liedlein erdacht or Verlorne Müh).
My favorites are "Zu Strassburg auf der Schanz" (the first "deserter song" by Mahler), "Nicht wiedersehen" and "Ich ging mit Lust" (similar mood and almost on the level of "Ging heut morgen übers Feld"). Then there are ones like the dead cuckoo whose tunes were re-used in symphonies etc. Anyway, the Hampson/Berio disc is highly recommendable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 15, 2019, 10:20:35 AM
Finally, I heard Mahler's 9th for the first time today. It was the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony performance. While I thought the opening movement was just incredible, I don't think the other three movements quite lived up to its promise. However, I suspect the problem is with my ears rather than the work itself, and will allow it plenty of time to grow on me, as I've had to do with the great Das Lied von der Erde.

Anyway, I also read and enjoyed the late Lewis Thomas' essay on Mahler's 9th, which I thought did a great job of summing up, in a few short paragraphs, the existential crisis of the late 20th century, which I think Mahler's music (as a whole) tended to foreshadow. Has anyone read it?

Finally, what are our favorite recordings of the work? As I've mentioned, it's new to me and I haven't heard very many. But I have been told great things about the Karajan/BP live recording, the Giulini/Chicago, and several others. I'm personally curious about the Klemperer and Walter recordings. I'm a big fan of Bernstein's Mahler and own his whole set (the first, Sony/Columbia cycle) but think it's worthwhile to branch out and hear other interpretations.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 15, 2019, 10:33:23 AM
The Klemperer and Walter (1959) recordings are indeed remarkable.

Maybe you shoud give the third movement a good listen (or two  :)). It is the work's musical pivot, in which the negative (nihilistic) influences try to gain the upper hand, but give way to the lambently beautiful 'moonscape' theme which ends up getting the upper hand in the last movement, bringing the work to its consolatory conclusion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 15, 2019, 02:09:55 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 15, 2019, 10:20:35 AM
Finally, I heard Mahler's 9th for the first time today. It was the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony performance. While I thought the opening movement was just incredible, I don't think the other three movements quite lived up to its promise. However, I suspect the problem is with my ears rather than the work itself, and will allow it plenty of time to grow on me, as I've had to do with the great Das Lied von der Erde.

Anyway, I also read and enjoyed the late Lewis Thomas' essay on Mahler's 9th, which I thought did a great job of summing up, in a few short paragraphs, the existential crisis of the late 20th century, which I think Mahler's music (as a whole) tended to foreshadow. Has anyone read it?

Finally, what are our favorite recordings of the work? As I've mentioned, it's new to me and I haven't heard very many. But I have been told great things about the Karajan/BP live recording, the Giulini/Chicago, and several others. I'm personally curious about the Klemperer and Walter recordings. I'm a big fan of Bernstein's Mahler and own his whole set (the first, Sony/Columbia cycle) but think it's worthwhile to branch out and hear other interpretations.

Here are some thoughts on that symphony -- and some favorite recordings:

Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 1) (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-1.html)
Gustav Mahler – Symphony No.9 (Part 2) (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/07/gustav-mahler-symphony-no9-part-2.html)

...including these. The last movement is Mahler being the closest he ever was to Bruckner. (As, ironically, Bruckner is the closest to Mahler in his (pen?)ultimate movement in HIS 9th.

4. Bernard Haitink, Royal Concertgebouw, Philips/Decca

5. Simon Rattle, Berlin Philharmonic, EMI

6. Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic, DG (studio)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 15, 2019, 03:20:07 PM
^Thanks for that, I just skimmed the whole thing. Interesting thoughts, especially about Bernstein's (and, to a lesser degree (...?) Barbirolli's) presence in Berlin having informed the famous Karajan recordings. I am actually considering both the Barbirolli and Karajan live (one or the other) to have and explore at a later date. The Barbirolli/Berlin/EMI is affordable for very cheap on Amazon, brand new, while the Karajan is not easy or cheap to find at all, but I'm more curious about that one, having heard so many good things. Going to sample both of them.

To change the subject, I'm listening to that Hampson/Bernstein/Vienna Lieder disc, the Rückert-Lieder. So incredibly lush, with surprisingly phenomenal DG early digital sound. As for Hampson, he has a beautiful voice and sings these great, but I think I just prefer an alto. Bernstein's tempi are slightly weird; his "Um Mitternacht" is very slow, as is my favorite of these Lieder, "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen". Overall I enjoy it and will be spending more time with it along with the rest of the songs on the disc.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on September 15, 2019, 05:18:45 PM
My own favorites
Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle
Levine/Munich Philharmonic (on Oehms)
Maderna/BBC Symphony Orch (on the BBC label)
Dudamel (I think it'd both a very good one, and also his only good Mahler recording so far)
Bernstein's DG recording
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on September 16, 2019, 12:30:36 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 15, 2019, 10:20:35 AM
Finally, I heard Mahler's 9th for the first time today. It was the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony performance. While I thought the opening movement was just incredible, I don't think the other three movements quite lived up to its promise. ...

It's fairly common for the 1st movement to be the best part of a symphony.  I would say this not just of Mahler, but of Haydn, Beethoven, and pretty much anyone else in between.
Symphonies are big things, and by their nature to some extent uneven - with strong bits and weaker bits.  Where this is the case, the strength is, more often than not, in the first movement.

Haitink's early '70s recording wth the CO is my favourite, of the few I know.  Levine is good but like so many recordings of the 9th it falls down weakly at 'the bells moment' (about 2/3 of the way through the 1st movement).  This episode only lasts 20 seconds or so out of an 80-minute symphony and so I shouldn't allow it to colour my view of an entire recording - but I do - tubular bells are just so wrong here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 16, 2019, 02:00:53 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 16, 2019, 12:30:36 AM
It's fairly common for the 1st movement to be the best part of a symphony.  I would say this not just of Mahler, but of Haydn, Beethoven, and pretty much anyone else in between.
Symphonies are big things, and by their nature to some extent uneven - with strong bits and weaker bits.  Where this is the case, the strength is, more often than not, in the first movement.

Haitink's early '70s recording wth the CO is my favourite, of the few I know.  Levine is good but like so many recordings of the 9th it falls down weakly at 'the bells moment' (about 2/3 of the way through the 1st movement).  This episode only lasts 20 seconds or so out of an 80-minute symphony and so I shouldn't allow it to colour my view of an entire recording - but I do - tubular bells are just so wrong here.

Glad to see I'm not alone in that evaluation, but I still think I just need to spend more time with the music. There is clearly a lot going on, more than one can pick up in one listen.

I'm curious about that Haitink you mention. I really love his Das Lied von der Erde from around the same time, with Janet Baker and James King.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 16, 2019, 02:45:02 AM
But in Haydn's time the first movement was almost always the longest and/or most elaborate. This began to change with Beethoven although it's still largely true for most of his work. It's quite different with Bruckner where at least 5 and 8, maybe also the 4th are finale-heavy.
It's not obviously true with Mahler although of his more or less conventionally structured symphonies only 1 and 6 seem clearly dominated by the finales; the 2nd is probably a borderline case, 3 and 4 are "top-heavy". Not sure about 5 and 7. (The 8th and "lied von der erde" are not conventional enough for such an evaluation to make a lot of sense.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on September 16, 2019, 12:49:09 PM
Where to start...

<makes a mighty but ultimately hopeless effort to not ramble a bit>

Regarding recordings of the Ninth, I'd put Karajan's (mostly) live effort in the " indispensable " category. While his earlier effort is also worthy, the uncorrected early clarinet entrance in the scherzo is quite jarring if the work is familiar, as is the phasing of the final bar of the movement. No such faults in the latter effort, which features truly unearthly sound  from the violins in the final movement.

Also, once again I'll tout the Bernstein DVD set from Deutsche Grammophone. While the sound engineering is not always consistent and some of the choices regarding film editing can be distracting, being able to watch Bernstein living in some of the music which meant the most to him is a joy, as much as the WP in particular are for the ears.

The idea has been posited that Mahler is perhaps best appreciated when heard only infrequently. I myself cannot agree, having had his symphonies and song cycles committed to memory for decades, and frequently present between my ears upon awakening. Imho, Mahler voices the full range of the human experience. Anything and everything which happens in our universe, on every scale, is perceptible at various points in his works. For me, " infrequent Mahler " is tantamount to " infrequent living ".

More rambling later...

LKB
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 17, 2019, 02:43:08 AM
Quote from: LKB on September 16, 2019, 12:49:09 PM
Where to start...

<makes a mighty but ultimately hopeless effort to not ramble a bit>

Regarding recordings of the Ninth, I'd put Karajan's (mostly) live effort in the " indispensable " category. While his earlier effort is also worthy, the uncorrected early clarinet entrance in the scherzo is quite jarring if the work is familiar, as is the phasing of the final bar of the movement. No such faults in the latter effort, which features truly unearthly sound  from the violins in the final movement.

Also, once again I'll tout the Bernstein DVD set from Deutsche Grammophone. While the sound engineering is not always consistent and some of the choices regarding film editing can be distracting, being able to watch Bernstein living in some of the music which meant the most to him is a joy, as much as the WP in particular are for the ears.

The idea has been posited that Mahler is perhaps best appreciated when heard only infrequently. I myself cannot agree, having had his symphonies and song cycles committed to memory for decades, and frequently present between my ears upon awakening. Imho, Mahler voices the full range of the human experience. Anything and everything which happens in our universe, on every scale, is perceptible at various points in his works. For me, " infrequent Mahler " is tantamount to " infrequent living ".

More rambling later...

LKB

I was mostly speaking for myself there, and wasn't really trying to posit any kind of universality. For a while, I was listening to Mahler all the time, one symphony per day, minimum, and I could feel the diminishing returns. Where I would once get chills when the choir comes in near the end of the 2nd symphony, I am now less affected. I still appreciate the music of course, but it lacks some of the visceral punch that it carried when I was hearing it infrequently. If you can listen to Mahler every day and enjoy it just as much every time, then by all means, do it. For me, these "peak" experiences are really very valuable, and (again, for me), they can be cheapened with overexposure.

Anyway, that Bernstein DVD set sounds fascinating. As I might have alluded to before, I'm a big fan of Bernstein in Mahler, and I have his earlier Sony Mahler symphonies cycle and really enjoy it. As for the Karajan live 9th, it seems consensus states that it's the best out there. I must get it. I'm also looking at the Barbirolli/Berlin/EMI which is currently very cheap on Amazon.

I am listening to Das Lied von der Erde this morning. This is the recording with Paul Kletzki and the Philharmonia Orchestra, with tenor Murray Dickie and baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing the alto part. This is a seriously beautiful version. It has really made me rethink the meanings of this work, which I think may be Mahler's greatest achievement. I am impressed with Kletzki's conducting and want to hear more, I know he also recorded the 1st and 4th symphonies. It seems he has been somewhat forgotten.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on September 17, 2019, 11:32:29 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 17, 2019, 02:43:08 AM
I was mostly speaking for myself there, and wasn't really trying to posit any kind of universality. For a while, I was listening to Mahler all the time, one symphony per day, minimum, and I could feel the diminishing returns. Where I would once get chills when the choir comes in near the end of the 2nd symphony, I am now less affected. I still appreciate the music of course, but it lacks some of the visceral punch that it carried when I was hearing it infrequently. If you can listen to Mahler every day and enjoy it just as much every time, then by all means, do it. For me, these "peak" experiences are really very valuable, and (again, for me), they can be cheapened with overexposure.

Anyway, that Bernstein DVD set sounds fascinating. As I might have alluded to before, I'm a big fan of Bernstein in Mahler, and I have his earlier Sony Mahler symphonies cycle and really enjoy it. As for the Karajan live 9th, it seems consensus states that it's the best out there. I must get it. I'm also looking at the Barbirolli/Berlin/EMI which is currently very cheap on Amazon.

I am listening to Das Lied von der Erde this morning. This is the recording with Paul Kletzki and the Philharmonia Orchestra, with tenor Murray Dickie and baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing the alto part. This is a seriously beautiful version. It has really made me rethink the meanings of this work, which I think may be Mahler's greatest achievement. I am impressed with Kletzki's conducting and want to hear more, I know he also recorded the 1st and 4th symphonies. It seems he has been somewhat forgotten.

It seems l expressed myself poorly, always a danger when rambling ( For me anyway ).

When l refer to having Mahler in my daily life, I'm not talking about listening. I'm talking about thinking. The symphonies and song cycles have resided in memory for many years now, and it's not unusual for that stereo - between - the - ears to be running even before I'm fully awake. ( Which is fine if it's the beginning of Symphonies 1 or 4, both of which present an easy opening to anyone's day. If it's no. 6, ruh roh... )

In truth, l rarely listen to the symphonies now. But it's not unusual for me to have several keep me company at work, an internal soundtrack embellished by humming, whistling or quietly singing if l can manage it without disturbing anyone.

That is what l was referring to.

From the standpoint of listening, l would agree that his music is served best in isolation. A Mahler symphony is a banquet of ideas and emotions, and a listener should have an opportunity for digestion afterwards. ( Haitink knows this, and in years past has programmed the Seventh as a concert in itself while on tour. )

You can't really follow Mahler with anything (imho)... except more Mahler, i.e. the Adagio from no. 10 or, perhaps, Blumine.

For whatever it's worth, my preferred recordings:

Symphony no. 1
Bernstein/WP/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

Symphony no. 2
CBSO/Auger, Baker/Rattle/EMI

Symphony no. 3
Bernstein/WP/Ludwig, Wiener Knabenchor/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

Symphony no. 4, tie:

Bernstein/Mathis/WP/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

Haitink/COA/Ameling/Philips

Symphony no. 5
Bernstein/WP/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

( Readers will possibly have discerned a pattern at this point...  8))

Symphony no. 6
von Karajan/BPO/Deutsche Grammophone

Symphony no. 7
Haitink/COA/Philips 1983

Symphony no. 8
Solti/Soloists, Wiener Singverein, Wiener Knabenchor/CSO/Decca

Symphony no. 9
von Karajan/BPO/Deutsche Grammophone Live 1982

Symphony no. 10 Adagio
Bernstein/WP/Deutsche Grammophone DVD

Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Szell/Schwarzkopf, Fischer - Dieskau/LSO/EMI

Kindertotenlieder, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Rückert Lieder
Barbirolli/Baker/HO/EMI

Das Klagende Lied
Haitink/COA/Philips

Das Lied von der Erde, tie:

von Karajan/Kollo, Ludwig/BPO/Deutsche Grammophone

Haitink/King, Baker/COA/Philips

Cheers,

LKB





Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 17, 2019, 12:57:42 PM
^Interesting thoughts. I find his music tends to follow me throughout the day, too. I can't stop thinking about Das Lied von der Erde after starting the day with it. (Wow, that Kletzki was a phenomenal performance...) I can't believe what a beautiful experience that Mahler has created in that song cycle.

Anyway, speaking of DLvdE, it appears we share a favorite recording, the Haitink/RCO with Janet Baker and James King. It's the first I heard and, I think, the best all-around of the few I've heard. Baker is incredible here. But I'm new to the work and must hear more. I am new to Mahler as a whole, I started listening to and loving his music in around April.

Thanks for sharing your favorites! If I were to undertake such an exercise, the results would be pretty uninteresting (a lot of Bernstein/NYPO). I'm not really in a phase of seeking out new recordings at the moment, but I will likely pick up one or two additional recordings of the 9th and possibly also DLvdE, which is quickly becoming my favorite of Mahler's works. Of the former I am leaning towards Karajan and Barbirolli; as for the latter, I really want to get the Krips/Wunderlich/DFD and also the Walter/VPO/Ferrier, possibly even the Karajan/Ludwig/Kollo you've mentioned. I love what I've heard of each of these.

Enough rambling for me, again, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 17, 2019, 02:13:29 PM
Quote from: LKB on September 17, 2019, 11:32:29 AM

For whatever it's worth, my preferred recordings:


I have over 400 Mahler CDs and LPs and it amazes me that many of your favorites coincide with my top 1, 2 or 3:


Symphony no. 1
Honeck/Pittsburgh
Bernstein/Concertgebouw

Symphony no. 2
Kaplan/Vienna
Bernstein/New York (DG)
Maazel/Vienna

Symphony no. 3
Horenstein/LSO
Bernstein/New York (Sony)

Symphony no. 4
Maazel/Vienna with Battle
Szell/Cleveland with Raskin

Symphony no. 5
Dohnányi/Cleveland
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Neumann/Gewandhaus Leipzig

Symphony no. 6
Solti/Chicago
Karajan/Berlin
Szell/Cleveland

Symphony no. 7
Klemperer/Philharmonia (An eccentric first choice, I know...but I love old Klemp)
Bernstein/New York (Sony)

Symphony no. 8
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Solti/Chicago

Symphony no. 9
Karajan/Berlin Live 1982
Haitink/Concertgebouw

Symphony no. 10 (Cooke) Philly rules in this symphony  8)
Ormandy/Philadelphia
Levine/Philadelphia

Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Boulez/Cleveland with Kozena and Gerharer
Szell/LSO with Schwarzkopf/Fischer-Dieskau

Kindertotenlieder, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Rückert Lieder
Barbirolli/Hallé with Baker

Das Klagende Lied
Sinopoli/Philharmonia with Studer/Meier/Goldberg/Allen
Chailly/DSO Berlin with Dunn/Fassbaender/Hollweg/Schmidt

Das Lied von der Erde
Haitink/Concertgebouw with King/Baker
Klemperer/Philharmonia with Wunderlich/Ludwig


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on September 17, 2019, 02:41:49 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 16, 2019, 02:45:02 AM
It's not obviously true with Mahler although of his more or less conventionally structured symphonies only 1 and 6 seem clearly dominated by the finales; the 2nd is probably a borderline case, 3 and 4 are "top-heavy". Not sure about 5 and 7. (The 8th and "lied von der erde" are not conventional enough for such an evaluation to make a lot of sense.)

I would suggest Mahler's 2nd is one of the most obvious examples of a front-heavy symphony.
4 is an oddity being classical in spirit but the 3rd movement is dominant.  3 seems surprisingly well-balanced considering its unconventional layout.

But some of this music begs the question "what is a symphony?".  (Answer: the composer called it a symphony, end of.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 17, 2019, 11:43:00 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 17, 2019, 02:41:49 PM
I would suggest Mahler's 2nd is one of the most obvious examples of a front-heavy symphony.
Why? I personally find the finale not so great, but it is a huge movement and considerably longer than the first one. It might be debatable, but it's hardly obvious that a 30 min movement with a choir and gong and stuff is not heavy enough as counterweight for a fairly conventional first movement that is not that far from Beethoven's or Bruckner's 9th.

Quote
4 is an oddity being classical in spirit but the 3rd movement is dominant.  3 seems surprisingly well-balanced considering its unconventional layout.

But some of this music begs the question "what is a symphony?".  (Answer: the composer called it a symphony, end of.)
I think only the 8th begs that question to some extent. (Even that one is not quite as odd as Berlioz "Romeo & Juliette" two generations earlier.) Some of the others might show some oddities (such as the slight song finale of the 4th) but mostly share similar types of and sequences of movements with other late romantic symphonies contemporary with or shortly before Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on September 18, 2019, 01:23:58 AM
Joining in the listing of favourite recordings:

Symphony No. 1
Kubelík 1979

Symphony No. 2
Scherchen 1958
Gielen 1996

Symphony No. 3
Adler 1952
Boulez 2001

Symphony No. 4
Reiner 1959
Mengelberg 1939

Symphony No. 5
Walter 1947
Barshai 2001

Symphony No. 6
Eschenbach 2005
Tennstedt 1983

Symphony No. 7
Gielen 1993
Scherchen 1965

Symphony No. 8
Abbado 1995
Scherchen 1951

Das Lied von der Erde
Klemperer 1967
Walter 1960

Symphony No. 9
Barbirolli 1964
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 18, 2019, 12:25:08 PM
So the Barbirolli/Berlin 9th is worthy, eh? I may have to pick one up while it's cheap on amazon.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on September 18, 2019, 11:07:47 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 18, 2019, 12:25:08 PM
So the Barbirolli/Berlin 9th is worthy, eh? I may have to pick one up while it's cheap on amazon.
Well, I certainly like it very much. I would have perhaps put Walter 1961 in there as well. Barbirolli is more on the balanced and economical side, the music is not dragged out, nor is the first movement given too much prominence. I'm not so keen on the ~90 minute "soggy handkerchief" interpretation that some conductors go for.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 19, 2019, 02:41:59 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on September 18, 2019, 11:07:47 PM
Well, I certainly like it very much. I would have perhaps put Walter 1961 in there as well. Barbirolli is more on the balanced and economical side, the music is not dragged out, nor is the first movement given too much prominence. I'm not so keen on the ~90 minute "soggy handkerchief" interpretation that some conductors go for.
When you put it that way, I'm not so sure I'd appreciate such an interpretation either, ;D

Walter is one I also need to check out. I'm listening to Walter's Mahler 1st now, with the Columbia SO, very good, maybe the best recording of this symphony, though Kubelík is also great and I will always love the Bernstein/NYPO. I have ordered the Karajan/Berlin live 9th recently and am really excited to hear it. (Does this count as a "soggy handkerchief" version, I wonder). I hear that Giulini/Chicago is also worthy, though I'm not really a huge Giulini guy. So many choices....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on September 19, 2019, 03:37:00 AM
Concerning the Mahler Ninth Symphony, I have earlier mentioned this recording from nearly 60 years ago.

[asin]B00EB1QXE6[/asin]

Leopold Ludwig is not remembered much today...but he should be!

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 19, 2019, 02:41:59 AM

I hear that Giulini/Chicago is also worthy, though I'm not really a huge Giulini guy. So many choices....


Yes, it is quite worthy!

As for the other symphonies, never to be forgotten is the set by Rafael Kubelik on DGG and the newer set by Pierre Boulez also on DGG.

The George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recordings of Mahler are always on the list!   0:)

Two specific recordings which always stand out:  Leonard Bernstein's Columbia recording of the Symphony #8 and Eugene Ormandy's RCA recording of the Symphony #2.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 19, 2019, 03:47:40 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 19, 2019, 02:41:59 AM
When you put it that way, I'm not so sure I'd appreciate such an interpretation either, ;D

Walter is one I also need to check out. I'm listening to Walter's Mahler 1st now, with the Columbia SO, very good, maybe the best recording of this symphony, though Kubelík is also great and I will always love the Bernstein/NYPO. I have ordered the Karajan/Berlin live 9th recently and am really excited to hear it. (Does this count as a "soggy handkerchief" version, I wonder). I hear that Giulini/Chicago is also worthy, though I'm not really a huge Giulini guy. So many choices....

Not a Giulini guy myself, but the Chicago Mahler is terrific. For great Mahler 1sts that are not historic, here are some other greats: Nezet-Seguin/BRSO (http://a-fwd.to/7uOqr3v). Boulez/CSO (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IIX2/weta909-20). And Haitink/CSO (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001Q8UOJ2/weta909-20)... surprisingly, perhaps. And, one historic one that's very gruff and great: Suitner/Dresden (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008K4X2/weta909-20).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on September 19, 2019, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 19, 2019, 02:41:59 AM
I have ordered the Karajan/Berlin live 9th recently and am really excited to hear it. (Does this count as a "soggy handkerchief" version, I wonder).
It has been quite a while since I heard it last, but I recall it being well balanced in spite of exhibiting some qualities that normally bother me in this symphony (and Mahler in general, he is unfortunately a swooner magnet). According to some notes I made the scherzo isn't played roughly enough for my taste, but apart from that pretty decent stuff.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 20, 2019, 02:29:50 AM
Well, I'll be excited to hear it. I also ordered the Barbirolli 9th, just because it was cheap. Between Lenny, Karajan, and Sir John I'll be set for a while on Mahler 9th recordings.

I'm listening to Pierre Boulez's Mahler 5th right now and it's very good, though I think it loses a bit of steam during the scherzo (though this could be a problem with the symphony itself...?) - very very good first two movements though.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Wy4LH8uPL._SX355_.jpg)

Edit: NOOOO, there is tons of artifact on the 5th movement  :-[
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on September 20, 2019, 03:30:06 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 20, 2019, 02:29:50 AM

I'm listening to Pierre Boulez's Mahler 5th right now and it's very good, though I think it loses a bit of steam during the scherzo (though this could be a problem with the symphony itself...?) - very very good first two movements though.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Wy4LH8uPL._SX355_.jpg)

Edit: NOOOO, there is tons of artifact on the 5th movement  :-[


I do not understand what that phrase means: something negative, of course, seems to be involved.  ;)   Can you give us more specific comments?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: J on September 20, 2019, 08:14:11 AM
Perhaps he meant "artifice".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on September 20, 2019, 09:25:04 AM
I thought he meant his CD is faulty, with clicks and pops.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on September 20, 2019, 05:36:43 PM
Quote from: North Star on September 20, 2019, 09:25:04 AM
I thought he meant his CD is faulty, with clicks and pops.

This was my interpretation as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 21, 2019, 05:10:57 AM
Quote from: North Star on September 20, 2019, 09:25:04 AM
I thought he meant his CD is faulty, with clicks and pops.
This is exactly what I meant. I apologize, I thought that was a commonly understood term.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on September 21, 2019, 07:18:22 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 21, 2019, 05:10:57 AM
This is exactly what I meant. I apologize, I thought that was a commonly understood term.

Ah, you must have mistakenly received the Stockhausen arrangement of the piece. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: j winter on September 22, 2019, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 20, 2019, 02:29:50 AM
Well, I'll be excited to hear it. I also ordered the Barbirolli 9th, just because it was cheap. Between Lenny, Karajan, and Sir John I'll be set for a while on Mahler 9th recordings.


If you enjoy Lenny, I think you'll almost certainly enjoy the Barbirolli -- his Mahler is always passionate, and interesting in approach.

When you eventually feel that you need a few more ninths, here's a classic to consider, particularly if you don't have any Czech orchestras in Mahler...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61PDRTHQF7L._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 22, 2019, 12:35:06 PM
^Well, I don't have any Czech orchestras in Mahler ;D ...and I have been impressed with what I've heard of maestro Ancerl, mostly recordings of Martinu. Mahler himself was born in what is now the Czech Republic, no?

Edit: Re:Barbirolli, that is good to hear. From what I've heard, Lenny is downright tame compared to Barbirolli's Mahler. :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: j winter on September 22, 2019, 02:02:22 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 22, 2019, 12:35:06 PM
^Well, I don't have any Czech orchestras in Mahler ;D ...and I have been impressed with what I've heard of maestro Ancerl, mostly recordings of Martinu. Mahler himself was born in what is now the Czech Republic, no?

Edit: Re:Barbirolli, that is good to hear. From what I've heard, Lenny is downright tame compared to Barbirolli's Mahler. :laugh:

Don't know that I'd ever call Lenny tame in Mahler, but Barbirolli definitely takes a similarly romantic approach.  My favorite Barbiroli Mahler is his 6th -- that's one for the ages IMO...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 22, 2019, 02:50:53 PM
Quote from: j winter on September 22, 2019, 02:02:22 PM
Don't know that I'd ever call Lenny tame in Mahler, but Barbirolli definitely takes a similarly romantic approach.  My favorite Barbiroli Mahler is his 6th -- that's one for the ages IMO...
This may be sacrilege, but I'm not big on the 6th, not yet anyway. Could be that I haven't heard a recording that I really like, but I find the music too heavy, too brutal, and too depressing (read (perhaps): hits too close to home) for regular listening. That being said, it's certainly great and maybe, indeed, one of his greatest symphonies. I wouldn't call it programmatic, but I would say that the arc of the music calls to mind the story of a lifelong struggle with loss, or mental illness, or perhaps both.

That Barbirolli 6th recording is extremely controversial, I gather. One either loves it or finds it a crime against humanity. Kind of the same story with Klemperer's Mahler 7th. I intend to check out both at some point in my life, though the latter terrifies me – I love Klemperer, but why is it a full 20 minutes longer than Lenny's Mahler 7th?

OK, with all that out of the way, if anyone else wants to talk about great recordings of the 6th that might change my mind, you have the floor. I've heard the Abbado/Berlin live is supposed to be pretty good. I also am interested in the Abbado/Chicago/DG Mahler 7th. The 7th is a great and underrated symphony I think.

I listened to the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony Mahler 9th earlier and really enjoyed it, even more than I did last week. Still trying to figure out what he was going for with the inner movements! The Rondo-Burleske sounds almost schizophrenic to my ears. It's a great, multifaceted symphony which rewards, I think, both repeat listening and (perhaps) varying interpretations. To Bernstein, it is a death ode to himself; to the music he loves, the great Austro-Germanic tradition; and (this part may be a stretch) to Western civilization itself, as it existed to that point in time. I don't know whether this is true. From all signs, Mahler did not see his own imminent death coming by this time and seemingly had a lot of life left in him. Of course, his whole life he was obsessed with death, but I wonder if this symphony really is by nature more elegiac than any of his other works.

Man, it feels weird having heard all of Mahler's music now... (aside from Das klagende Lied–I'm working on getting my hands on a copy–and the completed 10th). Not too long ago I was a complete neophyte, and now, I'm full-blown obsessive. What a great composer.

Rant over.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 22, 2019, 03:23:59 PM
I find Barbirolli's 6th only mildly controversial. Many a conductor has taken to his heavy, deliberate, Bydlo-style approach to the first movement. For its time the recording was sensational, with a huge soundstage. You really felt engulfed in the proceedings. I still put it on my personal M6 podium.

Zander and Farberman are also controversially slow, yet hugely engrossing interpretations, in spectacular sound. At the other end of the range, there is Szell in Cleveland (fast, tough, unremitting) and Bongartz from East Germany, with very slow outer movements and very fast inner ones, making for a Punch and Judy (or Petrushka and the Moor?) musical experience. One of my favourites.

Among the more recent recordings the Currentzis made a huge impression, despite its very objective view of the last movement. Molten lava stuff.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 22, 2019, 11:18:05 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 22, 2019, 02:50:53 PM
This may be sacrilege, but I'm not big on the 6th, not yet anyway. Could be that I haven't heard a recording that I really like, but I find the music too heavy, too brutal, and too depressing (read (perhaps): hits too close to home) for regular listening. That being said, it's certainly great and maybe, indeed, one of his greatest symphonies. I wouldn't call it programmatic, but I would say that the arc of the music calls to mind the story of a lifelong struggle with loss, or mental illness, or perhaps both.

That Barbirolli 6th recording is extremely controversial, I gather. One either loves it or finds it a crime against humanity. Kind of the same story with Klemperer's Mahler 7th. I intend to check out both at some point in my life, though the latter terrifies me – I love Klemperer, but why is it a full 20 minutes longer than Lenny's Mahler 7th?

OK, with all that out of the way, if anyone else wants to talk about great recordings of the 6th that might change my mind, you have the floor. I've heard the Abbado/Berlin live is supposed to be pretty good. I also am interested in the Abbado/Chicago/DG Mahler 7th. The 7th is a great and underrated symphony I think.

I, too, would disagree with the idea that Barbirolli's 6th is as controversial as Klemperer's 7th. There may be enough detractors from the former to keep it from being a consensus-choice front-runner, but it's widely (and rightly, IMO) well regarded. It is, however, a prime example of everything you say you don't (yet) like in the 6th, so I'm not surprised it's not done the trick for you, yet. However, I think I have a recommendation for a Sixth for you, which might prove to be the lede towards yet greater appreciation of the work: Fischer's 6th (http://a-fwd.to/68XZuMw). It's to M6 what Vanska is to Beethoven's 4th. (If you know that recording (http://a-fwd.to/42wB1FZ). Apotheosis of dance, indeed!

Abbado's Chicago 7th was special when it came out and is one of those cases of "once-a-recommendation-always-a-recommendation". Certainly the inner movements are considerably more interesting and atmospheric in his Berlin remake. The 7th is certainly the strangest of the symphonies.


Eine Riesengrosse Nachtmusik: MTT & Mahler's 7th (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/eine-riesengrosse-nachtmusik-mtt.html) (A somewhat dated review.)

QuoteI listened to the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony Mahler 9th earlier and really enjoyed it, even more than I did last week. Still trying to figure out what he was going for with the inner movements! The Rondo-Burleske sounds almost schizophrenic to my ears. It's a great, multifaceted symphony which rewards, I think, both repeat listening and (perhaps) varying interpretations. To Bernstein, it is a death ode to himself; to the music he loves, the great Austro-Germanic tradition; and (this part may be a stretch) to Western civilization itself, as it existed to that point in time. I don't know whether this is true. From all signs, Mahler did not see his own imminent death coming by this time and seemingly had a lot of life left in him. Of course, his whole life he was obsessed with death, but I wonder if this symphony really is by nature more elegiac than any of his other works.

It's one approach and it works -- but actually, Mahler's finale of the 9th is the first and seemingly only time (in a symphony, at least), that he stopped composing in question marks. It's an accepting of things as they are, rather than a struggle against it, as we've not heard from him before (and which he will overthrow completely in the 10th). It's as close to Bruckner as Mahler ever comes. Serenity reigns.

QuoteMan, it feels weird having heard all of Mahler's music now... (aside from Das klagende Lied–I'm working on getting my hands on a copy–and the completed 10th). Not too long ago I was a complete neophyte, and now, I'm full-blown obsessive. What a great composer.

That's exactly how it went with most of us, too. The addiction works fast!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on September 23, 2019, 12:57:38 AM
I have never heard Barbirolli's Mahler 6 called controversial before but at around 84 mins his studio recording is on the slow side. If you want something quicker try Barbirolli - his two live recordings (Testament) clock in at 74 mins. The live recording with the New Philharmonia Orchestra is probably the one to go for as it is in stereo.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on September 23, 2019, 01:15:05 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 22, 2019, 12:35:06 PM
^Well, I don't have any Czech orchestras in Mahler ;D ...and I have been impressed with what I've heard of maestro Ancerl, mostly recordings of Martinu. Mahler himself was born in what is now the Czech Republic, no?

Edit: Re:Barbirolli, that is good to hear. From what I've heard, Lenny is downright tame compared to Barbirolli's Mahler. :laugh:

Mahler was born in the Kingdom of Bohemia, at the time part of the Austrian Empire and now the Czech Republic. Mahler always described himself as Bohemian, never German or Austrian.

There is a long tradition of performing Mahler in the Czech Republic (and its predecessor Czechoslovakia) going back to Vaclav Talich in the interwar years. More recentlly Vaclav Neumann has recorded a complete cycle with the Czech Philharmonic for Supraphon; the sound quality is variable and his 7th is marred by an excessively slow 4th movement but the cycle is well worth exploring.

Ancerl recorded the 1st and 9th symphonies. Apparently he wasn't too comfortable with Late Romantic music preferring the later repertoire though the Ancerl Gold Edition has various examples. The 1st Symphony is disappointingly bland but the modernist 9th is excellent. He only recorded the 1st because Barbirolli cancelled owing to the political situation in 1968. There is a live recording of Barbirolli in No 1 with the Czech Philharmonic dating fro 1960 (Barbirolli Society).

My favourite Czech conductor for Mahler (and a lot more) is Rafael Kubelik but he recorded mainly with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 23, 2019, 02:23:39 AM
Maybe it's not so controversial. There was recently a Mahler 6th thread on another forum that I frequent, and there were pages and pages of back-and-forth regarding Barbirolli's 6th, with one camp proclaiming that the conductor has completely betrayed Mahler's intentions with his tempi and other stylistic choices (including, if I'm not mistaken, his use of the Scherzo-Andante order) resulting in an interpretation that is far more bleak than "Mahler would have intended" it should be, as if any of them could know such a thing. Of course, this is where the comparison with Klemperer's 7th comes into play. It was a silly argument, but it went on and on and on. Maybe outside of a forum setting this is not nearly as much of an issue.

In any case, I will surely hear the Barbirolli Mahler 6th at some point before I die, but I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks for the recommendations, everyone. I'll try and check out the Fischer (that one has been recommended to me before), and I'm still considering the Abbado/Berlin.

I'm listening again to the Kletzki/Dickie/Fischer-Dieskau DLvdE, which is really good. Quickly becoming a favorite. DFD really blows me away in Der Einsame im Herbst, and Kletzki seems to be himself a great Mahler conductor. I wonder why we don't hear about him much anymore...?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-2f4isQFL.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on September 23, 2019, 02:39:46 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 23, 2019, 02:23:39 AM
Maybe it's not so controversial. There was recently a Mahler 6th thread on another forum that I frequent, and there were pages and pages of back-and-forth regarding Barbirolli's 6th, with one camp proclaiming that the conductor has completely betrayed Mahler's intentions with his tempi and other stylistic choices (including, if I'm not mistaken, his use of the Scherzo-Andante order) resulting in an interpretation that is far more bleak than "Mahler would have intended" it should be, as if any of them could know such a thing. Of course, this is where the comparison with Klemperer's 7th comes into play. It was a silly argument, but it went on and on and on. Maybe outside of a forum setting this is not nearly as much of an issue.

In any case, I will surely hear the Barbirolli Mahler 6th at some point before I die, but I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks for the recommendations, everyone. I'll try and check out the Fischer (that one has been recommended to me before), and I'm still considering the Abbado/Berlin.

I'm listening again to the Kletzki/Dickie/Fischer-Dieskau DLvdE, which is really good. Quickly becoming a favorite. DFD really blows me away in Der Einsame im Herbst, and Kletzki seems to be himself a great Mahler conductor. I wonder why we don't hear about him much anymore...?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-2f4isQFL.jpg)

The Scherzo-Andante order argument is best avoided, it just goes on and on. Barbirolli respected Mahler's wishes, it was EMI who switched the order.

You are right to say 'as if any of them could know such a thing'.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 23, 2019, 02:16:58 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 23, 2019, 02:23:39 AM
Maybe it's not so controversial. There was recently a Mahler 6th thread on another forum that I frequent, and there were pages and pages of back-and-forth regarding Barbirolli's 6th, with one camp proclaiming that the conductor has completely betrayed Mahler's intentions with his tempi and other stylistic choices (including, if I'm not mistaken, his use of the Scherzo-Andante order) resulting in an interpretation that is far more bleak than "Mahler would have intended" it should be, as if any of them could know such a thing. Of course, this is where the comparison with Klemperer's 7th comes into play. It was a silly argument, but it went on and on and on. Maybe outside of a forum setting this is not nearly as much of an issue.


Whatever this one camp proclaimed about Barbirolli completely betraying Mahler's intentions is utter nonsense. Not the least because it is not 100% straightforward what his intentions were. Barbirolli ALWAYS used the Andante-Scherzo order... Now that is the order which Mahler used and never deviated from. So it is, by all rights, the order that might be more closely connotated with "his intentions", conventionally interpreted, at least. Now, I -- and many scholars, including H.L.de la Grange, and conductors -- firmly favor Scherzo-Andante, but if one movement-order MUST be called authentic over the other, it's Andante-Scherzo.

The Mahler Society people (i.e. Mr. Ratz) meanwhile changed the order around (fudging some evidence to make reality conform to their [again: in my opinion correct] hunch that S-A is to be preferred) and therefore the engineers of Barbirolli's M6 simply reversed the movements on the recording he issued, much to his dismay, apparently.

I've got one of those recordings and I enjoy it much better that way, so I'm not complaining. But the accusation of him allegedly betraying Mahler is absurd beyond belief.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on September 23, 2019, 11:20:48 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 23, 2019, 02:23:39 AM
In any case, I will surely hear the Barbirolli Mahler 6th at some point before I die, but I'm not in a hurry.

The GMG Mahler 6 blind comparison thread (from 2012, 24 recordings compared) is here, it's still an excellent read:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.60.html (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.60.html)

It's no secret that Barbirolli was the winner.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 27, 2019, 02:28:51 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 20, 2019, 02:29:50 AM
Well, I'll be excited to hear it. I also ordered the Barbirolli 9th, just because it was cheap. Between Lenny, Karajan, and Sir John I'll be set for a while on Mahler 9th recordings.

I'm listening to Pierre Boulez's Mahler 5th right now and it's very good, though I think it loses a bit of steam during the scherzo (though this could be a problem with the symphony itself...?) - very very good first two movements though.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Wy4LH8uPL._SX355_.jpg)

Edit: NOOOO, there is tons of artifact on the 5th movement  :-[

Vers La Flamme - prompted by your positive comments regarding this Boulez performance I listened to it again yesterday.  My memory from previous encounters had been feeling singularly underengaged.  And I have to say I felt exactly the same again!  Not that I'm a particular fan of the Bernstein approach of hyper-emotionalism and wringing sentiment from every phrase but I found this Boulez to be too objective.  To the point where I wondered if he actually likes (or identifies with) the piece at all.  The playing is excellent and the engineering good so lots of interesting detail and orchestral textures to enjoy but as a musical "journey" about as flat and unvaried as it could be.  No sense of 'release' or 'arrival' at all - with big moments seemingly to be willfully pushed through.  OK - there might be a performing tradition to broaden out here or do an unwritten rallentando there - but sometimes these unwritten traditions are NOT just lazy accretions to the pure urtext score - they are added because they WORK!

Which did lead me onto the following thought - sometimes (purely subjectively of course) you get a real sense of pleasure in a performance from players/conductors etc.  It struck me that I'm not sure I've ever thought Boulez "loved" playing a piece.  Perhaps it tweaked his intellect or he admired the construction/technique of a work - but good old fashioned emotional love I'm not sure.

I've got this whole Boulez/Mahler cycle so perhaps on reflection that was not a smart buy by me!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on September 27, 2019, 02:37:43 AM
I have most of Boulez' Mahler Cycle and have mixed feelings about them. I don't think he inhabits the world of the Wunderhorn symphonies at all comfortably. His recording of No 3 got some excellent reviews but leaves me cold.  I don't recall finding No 5 quite as bad as you did so I will have to add it to the lsist of discs to be revisited.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 27, 2019, 02:43:24 AM
Quote from: Biffo on September 27, 2019, 02:37:43 AM
I have most of Boulez' Mahler Cycle and have mixed feelings about them. I don't think he inhabits the world of the Wunderhorn symphonies at all comfortably. His recording of No 3 got some excellent reviews but leaves me cold.  I don't recall finding No 5 quite as bad as you did so I will have to add it to the lsist of discs to be revisited.

The thing is I wouldn't say it is "bad" - with that orchestra and a not-wilful interpretation how could it be.  But it simply seems to try to avoid ANY kind of sentiment or emotion that surely has to be part of the Mahlerian experience.......
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 27, 2019, 03:08:37 AM
@Roasted Swan. I've heard people say that, about Boulez's Mahler lacking emotion. Frankly, I don't buy it. I found plenty of emotionality in Boulez's interpretation, and moreover it seemed obvious to me that he loved the work and that he was working within a great tradition. My one complaint is that the Adagietto was a bit on the dry side, but I otherwise found it a moving experience through and through. It's all there in the score. As you say, any non-willful interpretation of this great piece is bound to be good at least. But in my perspective I heard no such attempt to suppress or avoid sentiment or emotion.

Edit: Full disclosure, my favorite Mahler conductor is Bernstein. Make of that what you will.

In any case, I'm honored that my comments inspired you to re-evaluate a performance that you didn't like in the past, even if in the end you did come to the same conclusion.  ;D

Just to hazard a guess here, perhaps you are not such a fan of Boulez's own music, either? People say that it is cold and objective, but I find it warm, rich, sensuous and full of life. To my point of view this is an unfounded criticism.

By the way, if you need someone to take that Boulez/Mahler set off your hands for cheap....  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 27, 2019, 04:56:53 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 27, 2019, 03:08:37 AM
@Roasted Swan. I've heard people say that, about Boulez's Mahler lacking emotion. Frankly, I don't buy it. I found plenty of emotionality in Boulez's interpretation, and moreover it seemed obvious to me that he loved the work and that he was working within a great tradition. My one complaint is that the Adagietto was a bit on the dry side, but I otherwise found it a moving experience through and through. It's all there in the score. As you say, any non-willful interpretation of this great piece is bound to be good at least. But in my perspective I heard no such attempt to suppress or avoid sentiment or emotion.

Edit: Full disclosure, my favorite Mahler conductor is Bernstein. Make of that what you will.

In any case, I'm honored that my comments inspired you to re-evaluate a performance that you didn't like in the past, even if in the end you did come to the same conclusion.  ;D

Just to hazard a guess here, perhaps you are not such a fan of Boulez's own music, either? People say that it is cold and objective, but I find it warm, rich, sensuous and full of life. To my point of view this is an unfounded criticism.

By the way, if you need someone to take that Boulez/Mahler set off your hands for cheap....  ;)

I used to be involved in performing groups in London that were contemporary music specialists.  Curiously I don't remember ever doing a piece by Boulez - I simply don't know his music so cannot comment.  I had colleagues who were in the BBC SO at the time of his holding the principal conductorship and they spoke highly of him on both a musical and personal level.  I am in awe of his technical ability but I guess I respond more to a generally "heart" rather than "head" approach.

I (almost) never off-load recordings I don't respond to because a) I might change my mind and b) I find it as instructive to listen to versions of pieces I don't like as I do of version I enjoy!  When I do get rid of things it is because I think the performance in question is simply poor - musically and technically OR the price I can sell the item for is too tempting!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 27, 2019, 06:02:32 AM
Aw, too bad. I do really want to hear the full Boulez/Mahler cycle at some point in life, but I can't justify to myself paying full price right now.  ;)

Re:Boulez's compositions, I was just curious, because I often see the same criticism leveled against both his conducting and his music, often by the same people. I don't agree that it applies to either!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 28, 2019, 07:41:22 AM
I just listened to Mahler's 6th again, the Leonard Bernstein/NYPO recording from the '60s.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/417meHekycL.jpg)

... and somehow, I enjoyed it more than ever. I found it absolutely phenomenal, moving, and, in turns, shocking and totally life-affirming. It is definitely one of the darkest symphonies ever written by anyone. I can see why the young Alban Berg and Anton Webern were so enamored with it. Berg once wrote to Webern thus:

"Es gibt doch nur eine VI. trotz der Pastorale." (There is only one Sixth, despite the Pastoral.)

A great work. I would probably now agree that it's one of his best. I'm sure I will be playing it back in my head all day.

After all, I still need to find a recording that makes a good case for the Andante-Scherzo order. I found the symphony to exhibit a beautiful architecture even with the "wrong" order. Still, I am leaning toward the Abbado/Berlin live recording.

Has anyone else listened to the "Tragic" symphony this week?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on September 28, 2019, 07:55:04 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 28, 2019, 07:41:22 AM
I just listened to Mahler's 6th again, the Leonard Bernstein/NYPO recording from the '60s.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/417meHekycL.jpg)

... and somehow, I enjoyed it more than ever. I found it absolutely phenomenal, moving, and, in turns, shocking and totally life-affirming. It is definitely one of the darkest symphonies ever written by anyone. I can see why the young Alban Berg and Anton Webern were so enamored with it. Berg once wrote to Webern thus:

"Es gibt doch nur eine VI. trotz der Pastorale." (There is only one Sixth, despite the Pastoral.)

A great work. I would probably now agree that it's one of his best. I'm sure I will be playing it back in my head all day.

After all, I still need to find a recording that makes a good case for the Andante-Scherzo order. I found the symphony to exhibit a beautiful architecture even with the "wrong" order. Still, I am leaning toward the Abbado/Berlin live recording.

Has anyone else listened to the "Tragic" symphony this week?

I haven't listened to the Sixth for a while though Bernstein/NYPO was the last version I heard. I no longer worry about the movement order and just play it in the order the conductor has chosen. Bernstein was the first  version I heard, on LP with the infamous 'garden gnome' cover, but somehow it made no impact on me. The first version I bought was Kubelik/Bavarian Radio SO and that is probably still my favourite though it has the movements in the 'wrong' order. For a performance with Andante- Scherzo I usually go for Barbirolli, live with the Philharmonia Orchestra (Testament).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 28, 2019, 10:08:33 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 27, 2019, 06:02:32 AM
Aw, too bad. I do really want to hear the full Boulez/Mahler cycle at some point in life, but I can't justify to myself paying full price right now.  ;)

Full price? It seems about 35 Euros/Dollars (http://a-fwd.to/3mYTSJ2), depending on where you are (only a touch more expensive in the UK, on Amazon, at least)... which isn't so bad for a 14 disc set of fairly modern recordings from a major label. Not a freebe, granted, but a pretty good deal, I think... and no more expensive than any other cycle I can think of.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 28, 2019, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 28, 2019, 10:08:33 AM
Full price? It seems about 35 Euros/Dollars (http://a-fwd.to/3mYTSJ2), depending on where you are (only a touch more expensive in the UK, on Amazon, at least)... which isn't so bad for a 14 disc set of fairly modern recordings from a major label. Not a freebe, granted, but a pretty good deal, I think... and no more expensive than any other cycle I can think of.
Point being, I'm not buying Mahler cycles right now, period, unless I happen to be getting one for the cost of shipping from someone who has one and hates it enough to ditch it. :P I have more Mahler than I have time to listen, and my collection isn't jack compared to some of those I see talked about here. The only complete Mahler cycle that I have is the Bernstein/NYPO, and I plan to keep it that way for at least another year or so. I am very new to Mahler.

Having gotten all that out of the way, you're right, $35 is an excellent price for that Boulez set. More than fair. But I'm looking for freebies here.  :laugh:

@Biffo. Can you show me this garden gnome cover?  :o You're not the first I've heard to recommend the Barbirolli live recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on September 28, 2019, 02:25:25 PM
I bought the Pierre Boulez cycle as the CD's appeared and was always happy with what I heard! 

#1, #7, #3, and #8 stood out especially, but I was not disappointed: they compare well with Kubelik and Bernstein, I think.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on September 29, 2019, 01:33:14 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on September 28, 2019, 01:27:54 PM
Point being, I'm not buying Mahler cycles right now, period, unless I happen to be getting one for the cost of shipping from someone who has one and hates it enough to ditch it. :P I have more Mahler than I have time to listen, and my collection isn't jack compared to some of those I see talked about here. The only complete Mahler cycle that I have is the Bernstein/NYPO, and I plan to keep it that way for at least another year or so. I am very new to Mahler.

Having gotten all that out of the way, you're right, $35 is an excellent price for that Boulez set. More than fair. But I'm looking for freebies here.  :laugh:

@Biffo. Can you show me this garden gnome cover?  :o You're not the first I've heard to recommend the Barbirolli live recording.

It has been mentioned  a couple of times in the Worst looking CD/LP artwork thread, most recently just over a week ago. It is on p173, #3442.

The issue came up a few years ago in CM forum of Amazon UK during a discussion of LB's Mahler 6. Someone mentioned 'the one with the garden gnome on the cover' and several people seemed to know what he was talking about. I was baffled, I borrowed the album from a record library years ago and had no recollection of any garden gnomes on the cover. The cover reappeared in this forum and I immediately remembered the full horror of it. It is not actually a garden gnome but looks to me like a piece of naff pseudo-classical statuary. Either way it is hideous; what was the cover designer thinking of? Or more likely taking.

This is what real garden gnomes look like -

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSPFa6aHxRbuwKb-nAu9mQpS_L5gQ:1569748330306&q=garden+gnomes&tbm=isch&source=univ&sxsrf=ACYBGNSPFa6aHxRbuwKb-nAu9mQpS_L5gQ:1569748330306&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjb_vSc2PXkAhVCt3EKHdayBacQsAR6BAgIEAE&biw=1440&bih=757#imgrc=LDLbhMpmw8L_EM
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on September 29, 2019, 05:33:08 AM
^I see, I found that other thread you mentioned. Wow, that is an ugly cover. You're right that it's not exactly a garden gnome, which explains why I got no hits when I googled "Mahler 6 garden gnome".  :laugh:

I am listening to the Barbirolli Mahler 9th:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JZarhot4L._SY355_.jpg)

Pretty good so far. Not terribly far removed from the Bernstein/NYPO in interpretation, but it is leaner, more incisive, and more direct, I think. The adagio is also, I think, better, at least so far. More lyrical, less nebulous. The only recordings I have heard are the Bernstein and then this Barbirolli. I'm not on a mission to explore all of the many other recordings, at least not at this juncture, but I have somehow ended up with four recordings in the past couple weeks.  ???

Overall, I think I prefer the Bernstein, though the adagio here is indeed better. Anyway, I am at an early stage in my appreciation with this symphony. This is the third time I've ever heard it. Take all my comments with as many grains of salt as necessary.

Has anyone else listened to Mahler's 9th in the past week or so? What recording, and what did you think? If you haven't, rectify that immediately! This 9th month of 2019 is almost over, make it count.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 01, 2019, 02:19:40 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VE77yNmFL._SY355_.jpg)

This is an absolutely brilliant performance of the 4th symphony. I bought it impulsively, but I would highly recommend it to any fan of this great symphony – for me, it was the 4th that won me over on Mahler in the first place, the Reiner/Chicago recording. This one may be even better.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 13, 2019, 12:05:12 PM
What does Mahler's 9th symphony mean to you? I think it might be the most ambiguous and challenging of all his works.

Did it take you several listens to "crack" Mahler's 9th, or did it make sense right away? I feel like it's music that I need to slowly unfold. Maybe I should even take a break and come back at a later point in life. I think it is a strange, beautiful, and massive work. There are parts of it that I still can't make heads or tails of, especially the inner movements. The adagio makes more sense every time I hear it.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 13, 2019, 01:00:50 PM
Although I've always loved the ninth, there was something in it I couldn't relate to. A few years ago I found out that the key to the finale lies in the slow sections of the scherzo. Ever since then the emotional climax of the work has shifted from the second half of I to the second half of IV. For me it's the apex of all Mahler's oeuvre.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 13, 2019, 01:06:07 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 13, 2019, 12:05:12 PM
What does Mahler's 9th symphony mean to you? I think it might be the most ambiguous and challenging of all his works.

Did it take you several listens to "crack" Mahler's 9th, or did it make sense right away? I feel like it's music that I need to slowly unfold. Maybe I should even take a break and come back at a later point in life. I think it is a strange, beautiful, and massive work. There are parts of it that I still can't make heads or tails of, especially the inner movements. The adagio makes more sense every time I hear it.

Well, I can tell you what it isn't to me: Mahler's "farewell" to life, as is often said about it. That's a load of sentimental rubbish as far as I'm concerned. As I've said before, if this symphony is supposed to be his farewell, what was the Tenth intended to be? His "just kidding, I'm not dead yet" symphony? And, as Tom Service points out, "far from going gently into a sort of pre-deathly contemplation, Mahler was full of plans, action, and music in the years when he was writing the Ninth Symphony. He was taking up his post at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, writing Das Lied von der Erde, preparing for the premiere of the Eighth Symphony, and writing, but not completing, what would truly be his last symphony, the Tenth."

I love all of Mahler's symphonies (well, that may be a stretch when it comes to the Eighth, but even in it there are some lovely moments). But the Ninth has always been problematic for me. I love the first movement, and the finale is all right (though when it comes to slow endings, I like the Third's more), but those two inner movements just don't do much for me. There's one passage, I believe in the third movement, where the strings are playing a high, almost screaming melody - I'm always glad when it's over.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 13, 2019, 02:15:29 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on October 13, 2019, 01:06:07 PM
Well, I can tell you what it isn't to me: Mahler's "farewell" to life, as is often said about it. That's a load of sentimental rubbish as far as I'm concerned. As I've said before, if this symphony is supposed to be his farewell, what was the Tenth intended to be? His "just kidding, I'm not dead yet" symphony? And, as Tom Service points out, "far from going gently into a sort of pre-deathly contemplation, Mahler was full of plans, action, and music in the years when he was writing the Ninth Symphony. He was taking up his post at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, writing Das Lied von der Erde, preparing for the premiere of the Eighth Symphony, and writing, but not completing, what would truly be his last symphony, the Tenth."

I love all of Mahler's symphonies (well, that may be a stretch when it comes to the Eighth, but even in it there are some lovely moments). But the Ninth has always been problematic for me. I love the first movement, and the finale is all right (though when it comes to slow endings, I like the Third's more), but those two inner movements just don't do much for me. There's one passage, I believe in the third movement, where the strings are playing a high, almost screaming melody - I'm always glad when it's over.

Very interesting. Thank you for your perspective. I'm so used to Mahler fans saying that the 9th is his greatest work or some such, that it's almost refreshing to see someone who doesn't care for it as much. I won't say that the inner movements do nothing for me at all, but I do find them somewhat confusing. The Rondo-Burleske is just bizarre. I'm still trying to piece it all together in my head. I won't make any call about whether or not I like the symphony or its greatness until I hear it at least another 5-10 times.

So considering you don't like the 8th much either (nor do I, certainly my least favorite Mahler symphony alongside the 3rd, though I still need to give both another fair shot)... how do you rate late Mahler in general? Do you like Das Lied von der Erde? Or the 10th symphony?

Personally, I adore DLvdE – I'm listening to it now, in fact. I have yet to give a fair shot to the 10th symphony. But I think it's safe to say that Mahler's late-period works tend to be much more challenging than his earlier or middle works.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 13, 2019, 04:38:36 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 13, 2019, 02:15:29 PM
[...] So considering you don't like the 8th much either (nor do I, certainly my least favorite Mahler symphony alongside the 3rd, though I still need to give both another fair shot)... how do you rate late Mahler in general? Do you like Das Lied von der Erde? Or the 10th symphony?

Personally, I adore DLvdE – I'm listening to it now, in fact. I have yet to give a fair shot to the 10th symphony. But I think it's safe to say that Mahler's late-period works tend to be much more challenging than his earlier or middle works.

I like DLvdE well enough. I have to confess I'm not a big fan of classical-style singing in general, so I don't listen to much of it. But I've heard DLvdE many times. Given that blind spot I have, it's more than tolerable.

(Having said that, I have to add that the Third is my favorite Mahler symphony even though it has some singing in it. :-\)

I can say about the same for the Tenth. It's been a long time since I've heard one of the completions - and I believe one or the other of the Cooke versions are the only ones I've heard - so all I can say is that I don't remember disliking it. That first movement, which Mahler did complete, is interesting in how it hints at the coming "atonal" revolution, especially that one dramatic chord that comes along near the end (? - I think). One wonders what kind of music Mahler might have written if he'd lived until 1920 or so - not only in what it might have sounded like, but how he would have reacted to the generally much smaller scale of works produced in the wake of the Second Viennese School. There certainly weren't many 80- or 90-minute symphonies written after 1910 or so.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 14, 2019, 12:35:33 AM
I see this reply is doomed to end-of-page oblivion, so ...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 14, 2019, 12:40:22 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 13, 2019, 12:05:12 PM
What does Mahler's 9th symphony mean to you? I think it might be the most ambiguous and challenging of all his works.

I took to Mahler's 9th straight away.  I find it far less 'challenging' than his 6th, 7th or 8th symphonies and to my ears it's a pretty straightforward work, beautifully conceived and constructed.  The inner movements don't seem any more or less incongruous than in many of his other symphonies, or in symphonies by others - Beethoven's Eroica for example.

I heard it first in Haitink's recording of around 1970, and I also attended a concert of the same forces, Haitink/Concertgebouw, at a RAH Prom.  Had to stand through the whole performance, but even so it was special, as is the recording.  By then I was also familiar with recordings of the 3rd (Bernstein), 4th (Kletzki) and 1st (Solti) acquired in that order**.  I like these four but I have never fully come to terms with any of the other symphonies, although I enjoy playing individual movements, which, since I am listening to recordings rather than attending concerts, I can do of course.
** I nearly forgot - also the Klagende Lied (Boulez).

I often listen to the first movement only, of the 2nd.  Even in performance Mahler recommended a pause for recovery of some minutes after this movement anyway - so I am happy to treat it as standalone music.
I often listen to the middle 3 movements of the 7th, avoiding the 1st and last movements which I think are awful.
I often listen to movements 3, 4 and 5 of the 3rd, without committing to the over-long outer movements.
I often play just the 1st movement of the 9th.  I still like Haitink's recording the best of all, though I have listened to many others.
I often 'cut' the final movement of the 4th.

I could wish Mahler had explored his cowbells effects a bit further - they are used with great restraint in the 6th and 7th symphonies and in a way that definitely leaves me wanting more!  The brief but telling 'bells' episode in the 1st movement of the 9th is like a development of the same theme.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brunumb on October 14, 2019, 01:18:04 AM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on October 13, 2019, 01:06:07 PM

But the Ninth has always been problematic for me. I love the first movement, and the finale is all right (though when it comes to slow endings, I like the Third's more), but those two inner movements just don't do much for me.


We seem to be on exactly the same page when it comes to the 9th.  I have always felt that something was wrong with me as a Mahler obsessive when I couldn't see it as one of the great symphonies of the 20th century, let alone Mahler's greatest.  To me, Mahler seemed to have run out of inspiration in the middle movements, and with the final movement my reaction was something like "Oh no, not another fade to black adagio".  I'm just a musical numpty, so there could be something vital that I am missing.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on October 14, 2019, 01:21:39 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 14, 2019, 12:40:22 AM


I often listen to the middle 3 movements of the 7th, avoiding the 1st and last movements which I think are awful.

That last movement of the 7th is so awful that I almost think maybe it was intentional, an irony or spoof. When I think that way, it sounds absolutely perfect!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on October 14, 2019, 01:22:45 AM
There weren't too many 80-90 minutes symphonies written *before* 1910 either!
The popularity of Mahler and Bruckner should not deceive us, that a "typical" late/post romantic symphony was closer to 50 min than to 80. Actually, all of Bruckner's have been conducted in less than 80 min, although the 5th and 8th exceed this mark in slow readings.

Nevertheless, I don't think a longer-lived Mahler would have cut down the scale and written shorter "orchestral pieces" like his younger contemporaries.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on October 14, 2019, 01:40:43 AM
A rough model for the movement sequence in Mahler's 9th is very probably Tchaikovsky's 6th. This also has a slow finale and two scherzando/dance-Movements in the middle. To some extent Mahler's 2nd and 3rd already had "huge first movement in moderate tempo - bunch of shorter movements, often scherzando/dance/song - huge finale" in the 3rd the finale is also slow, in the 2nd it is a large movement with different tempi.
I encountered the first for the first time when I was ca. 17-18 and somewhat familiar with his 4th, 1st, 2nd, maybe also the 5th. The first couple of times I found the horn solo at the beginning simply ugly and couldn't make head or tail of the piece. But about two years later or so, I loved it and it has been my favorite Mahler symphony and my favorite 20th cent. symphony every since.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 10:09:50 AM
How do you guys like the Zinman cycle?  I'm sure it has been discussed somewhere in this thread, but the search function is acting up and perhaps there are new perspectives to harvest?

[asin] B0045TN2MK[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 14, 2019, 10:28:34 AM
^Prejudice on my behalf colors Zinman as somewhat of a lightweight–though I'll say this much, he is responsible for at least one landmark recording, and that is Górecki's third symphony with Dawn Upshaw and the London Sinfonietta–so I haven't heard so much as five minutes from his Mahler cycle. But I was just earlier today reading someone's good word regarding his recording of Mahler's 9th, in which the writer described his reading as the "anti-Bernstein", characterized by subtlety and slow build-up. This piqued my interest, but not enough for me to seek out his cycle in light of all of the many other great Mahler recordings I still must work through first.

If anyone can speak from an informed perspective on the matter, please do tell, as now I'm curious too.

So I've decided I'm going to listen to all of Mahler's symphonies in the coming few weeks, culminating in the completed 10th which I have not heard. I listened to the first symphony this morning, will listen to the second tomorrow, and so on until the end. I've never done this before. I'm hoping to gain some perspective on his development as an artist throughout time.

Has anyone done this before? Gratuitous though it may be, it's entirely possible in this age of high-definition recorded sound. Even worse yet, has anyone marathoned the entire 10 symphonies in a single day?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 10:34:32 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 14, 2019, 10:28:34 AM
^Prejudice on my behalf colors Zinman as somewhat of a lightweight–though I'll say this much, he is responsible for at least one landmark recording, and that is Górecki's third symphony with Dawn Upshaw and the London Sinfonietta–so I haven't heard so much as five minutes from his Mahler cycle. But I was just earlier today reading someone's good word regarding his recording of Mahler's 9th, in which the writer described his reading as the "anti-Bernstein", characterized by subtlety and slow build-up. This piqued my interest, but not enough for me to seek out his cycle in light of all of the many other great Mahler recordings I still must work through first.

If anyone can speak from an informed perspective on the matter, please do tell, as now I'm curious too.

So I've decided I'm going to listen to all of Mahler's symphonies in the coming few weeks, culminating in the completed 10th which I have not heard. I listened to the first symphony this morning, will listen to the second tomorrow, and so on until the end. I've never done this before. I'm hoping to gain some perspective on his development as an artist throughout time.

Has anyone done this before? Gratuitous though it may be, it's entirely possible in this age of high-definition recorded sound. Even worse yet, has anyone marathoned the entire 10 symphonies in a single day?  :laugh:
It sounds like an exciting journey!    :P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on October 14, 2019, 10:50:43 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 14, 2019, 10:28:34 AM
^Prejudice on my behalf colors Zinman as somewhat of a lightweight–though I'll say this much, he is responsible for at least one landmark recording, and that is Górecki's third symphony with Dawn Upshaw and the London Sinfonietta–so I haven't heard so much as five minutes from his Mahler cycle. But I was just earlier today reading someone's good word regarding his recording of Mahler's 9th, in which the writer described his reading as the "anti-Bernstein", characterized by subtlety and slow build-up. This piqued my interest, but not enough for me to seek out his cycle in light of all of the many other great Mahler recordings I still must work through first.

If anyone can speak from an informed perspective on the matter, please do tell, as now I'm curious too.

So I've decided I'm going to listen to all of Mahler's symphonies in the coming few weeks, culminating in the completed 10th which I have not heard. I listened to the first symphony this morning, will listen to the second tomorrow, and so on until the end. I've never done this before. I'm hoping to gain some perspective on his development as an artist throughout time.

Has anyone done this before? Gratuitous though it may be, it's entirely possible in this age of high-definition recorded sound. Even worse yet, has anyone marathoned the entire 10 symphonies in a single day?  :laugh:

I am probably the one who said that about Zinman's 9th. Frankly, it's the one truly excellent installment of his cycle. His 3rd and 4th are well above average, but the rest of the set is merely average, and in the case of the 10th, actually one of the worst on record.

I can't imagine listening to all of them in a single day. Just hearing two in the same day leaves me mentally exhausted.

BTW, re the 9th, Maderna/BBC Symphony O. is in a similar vein but not quite as good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on October 15, 2019, 12:59:09 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 14, 2019, 10:28:34 AM
^Prejudice on my behalf colors Zinman as somewhat of a lightweight–though I'll say this much, he is responsible for at least one landmark recording, and that is Górecki's third symphony with Dawn Upshaw and the London Sinfonietta–so I haven't heard so much as five minutes from his Mahler cycle. But I was just earlier today reading someone's good word regarding his recording of Mahler's 9th, in which the writer described his reading as the "anti-Bernstein", characterized by subtlety and slow build-up. This piqued my interest, but not enough for me to seek out his cycle in light of all of the many other great Mahler recordings I still must work through first.

If anyone can speak from an informed perspective on the matter, please do tell, as now I'm curious too.

So I've decided I'm going to listen to all of Mahler's symphonies in the coming few weeks, culminating in the completed 10th which I have not heard. I listened to the first symphony this morning, will listen to the second tomorrow, and so on until the end. I've never done this before. I'm hoping to gain some perspective on his development as an artist throughout time.

Has anyone done this before? Gratuitous though it may be, it's entirely possible in this age of high-definition recorded sound. Even worse yet, has anyone marathoned the entire 10 symphonies in a single day?  :laugh:

So much to comment on so will start with Zinman's Mahler. I bought Symphony No  1 when it was first released. I found it beautifully played and recorded and that was about it. I wasn't tempted to any more instalments in the cycle. I got into trouble in another forum when I criticised his Beethoven symphony cycle so it is better to draw a veil over that. The only recording of his I would unreservedly recommend is Koechlin Jungle Book.

I have tried to listen to Mahler cycles on successive (or sometimes alternate) days but never got beyond No 7. No 8 is usually the sticking point, I need to be in a special mood to attempt it. Most recently I listened to the Gielen cycle with the same result - Nos 1 - 7 fairly quickly but not on successive days. After a few days rest I listened to No 8 and Das Lied von der Erde. Then I ran out of steam; it was several weeks before I tried Nos 9 & 10. Sadly, I found both disappointing, until then the cycle had been good or very good.

I couldn't even imagine listening to all the symphonies in one day. I the Amazon Classical Music forums (US and UK) there was at least one person who quite often made posting along the lines of 'listened to four recordings of Mahler 6 this morning' . I found this mind-boggling, one performance of Mahler 6 leaves me shattered and not wanting to listen to anything else for the rest of the day.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 15, 2019, 01:30:00 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 14, 2019, 10:28:34 AM
^Prejudice on my behalf colors Zinman as somewhat of a lightweight–.

I have avoided Zinman's Mahler because I had this precise response to his Strauss which was widely lauded.  I'm not sure what the point is in playing Strauss with its large and opulent scoring if the approach is anti-opulent/grandly sweeping!  Likewise I found the playing of the Swiss orchestra to be neat and of a high quality but with little sense of anything ever being on the edge - control for control's sake can be a limiting/inhibiting thing to my mind......
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 15, 2019, 02:59:14 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 14, 2019, 10:09:50 AM
How do you guys like the Zinman cycle?  I'm sure it has been discussed somewhere in this thread, but the search function is acting up and perhaps there are new perspectives to harvest?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71APTwJIzkL._SX522_.jpg)
Mahler 1-10
Zinman
RCA re-issue (http://a-fwd.to/2cJN3ty)

Zinman's Mahler, either on SACD or in this cheap RCA re-issue, started out rather lukewarm; there's often a sense of someone accelerating but with the parking brake still engaged.

But there's plenty good about it, too, foremost (and perhaps most surprising) the 6th:

Quote from: jlaurson on September 09, 2016, 06:53:01 AMI know I didn't expect much of this, because I want my Sixth knock-out hard and biting and gritty and suspected that Zinman might go all soft and flabby on it. But when I heard that combo live at the Leipzig Mahler Fest (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-zinman-tonhalle.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-zinman-tonhalle.html)) I was very, very pleasantly surprised how good it sounded and how rough. Some of that seems to translate in the recording, one movement in. But he does of course take the movements in the correct, which is to say: wrong order.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cr6uTA5XEAA2Rjk.jpg)
#morninglistening to #Mahler w/@DavidZinman & #Tonhalle on RCA/@sonly_classical: Symphony ... http://ift.tt/2cj9DYk  (http://amzn.to/2c3uRJk)

kishnevi, if I remember correctly, contents that his 9th is one of the best in the cycle and one of his favorite 9ths, generally. Off the top of my head, I don't have a valid opinion of it; not even the memory of an opinion. Must re-listen.

Hurwitz was high on his 1st: https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-13597/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-13597/), 4th https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14244/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14244/?search=1), 3rd https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14003/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14003/?search=1), 6th https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14740/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14740/?search=1), not so much on his 9th https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-16072/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-16072/?search=1) and 7th https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15331/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15331/?search=1), of Goodish opinion re: the Second https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-13788/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-13788/?search=1), and didn't think much of the 5th.

I remember finding the 4th really OK, the 2nd quite good, the 3rd excellent. I also still need to listen to his Olson 10th.



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 15, 2019, 03:58:50 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 14, 2019, 10:28:34 AM
So I've decided I'm going to listen to all of Mahler's symphonies in the coming few weeks, culminating in the completed 10th which I have not heard. I listened to the first symphony this morning, will listen to the second tomorrow, and so on until the end. I've never done this before. I'm hoping to gain some perspective on his development as an artist throughout time.

A bit late now since you've already listened to it, but I do think that in the right hands (Honeck springs to mind) the very opening 4 minutes of the 1st Symphony sounds like, well, the opening of the entire symphony cycle.  Similar to the opening of Das Rheingold starting off the entire 4 operas of Der Ring.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on October 15, 2019, 10:56:35 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 15, 2019, 02:59:14 AM


kishnevi, if I remember correctly, contents that his 9th is one of the best in the cycle and one of his favorite 9ths, generally. Off the top of my head, I don't have a valid opinion of it; not even the memory of an opinion. Must re-listen.


Nota bene: kishnevi was my old name, before the Great Server Switch.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 16, 2019, 01:14:32 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 15, 2019, 10:56:35 AM
Nota bene: kishnevi was my old name, before the Great Server Switch.

Ah, I see. Well, JSB is a much better handle, if I may say.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 16, 2019, 02:39:24 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 13, 2019, 12:05:12 PM

What does Mahler's 9th Symphony mean to you? I think it might be the most ambiguous and challenging of all his works.


Well, what is the meaning of a walk through the hills and meadows, or the mountains, or the gorges?  What is the meaning of a journey to a faraway land?

After nearly 60 years of hearing the symphony, which is a great favorite, and over 60 years of listening to Classical Music in general, I can say that I have no idea of what it means to me.   8)

For my own works, I have no idea what my Trio New Year's Resolution means.  I do know that my choral work, Exaudi me, is a lamentation, using a Latin prayer of hope and contrition.  But...what does it mean?  I again cannot say.

Mahler's Ninth Symphony produces a flurry of memories, images, emotions, but they do not cohere into a meaning of any kind.  I believe Mahler called his symphonies universes or worlds.   While listening to the Ninth Symphony, you are exploring that faraway land, where you will find surprises, fulfill a sense of discovery, and have all sorts of other experiences.  And similar to visiting a faraway country for the twentieth time, where you will find people and things changed from your last visit, your twentieth visit to this symphony will bring you both the old and the new, a universe in a kaleidoscope.

And what do the images in a kaleidoscope mean, or the sounds of this symphony?  Perhaps you will be positive that they mean something, something inchoate, something vaguely comprehensible, something just beyond Kant's Ding an sich, and your mind will tell you that you understand...some thing.

And then you turn the kaleidoscope, or the music continues, and that sense of comprehension fades away.

Those are my thoughts.  Yours may or will be quite different, which trait is the nature and glory of Art! 

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Moonfish on October 16, 2019, 02:57:33 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 16, 2019, 02:39:24 PM
Well, what is the meaning of a walk through the hills and meadows, or the mountains, or the gorges?  What is the meaning of a journey to a faraway land?

After nearly 60 years of hearing the symphony, which is a great favorite, and over 60 years of listening to Classical Music in general, I can say that I have no idea of what it means to me.   8)

For my own works, I have no idea what my Trio New Year's Resolution means.  I do know that my choral work, Exaudi me, is a lamentation, using a Latin prayer of hope and contrition.  But...what does it mean?  I again cannot say.

Mahler's Ninth Symphony produces a flurry of memories, images, emotions, but they do not cohere into a meaning of any kind.  I believe Mahler called his symphonies universes or worlds.   While listening to the Ninth Symphony, you are exploring that faraway land, where you will find surprises, fulfill a sense of discovery, and have all sorts of other experiences.  And similar to visiting a faraway country for the twentieth time, where you will find people and things changed from your last visit, your twentieth visit to this symphony will bring you both the old and the new, a universe in a kaleidoscope.

And what do the images in a kaleidoscope mean, or the sounds of this symphony?  Perhaps you will be positive that they mean something, something inchoate, something vaguely comprehensible, something just beyond Kant's Ding an sich, and your mind will tell you that you understand...some thing.

And then you turn the kaleidoscope, or the music continues, and that sense of comprehension fades away.

Those are my thoughts.  Yours may or will be quite different, which trait is the nature and glory of Art!

Hear! Hear!

Ah, Cato! I love your philosophical stance and the lens you use to ponder the meaning of music! 

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 16, 2019, 03:42:59 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 16, 2019, 02:57:33 PM
Hear! Hear!

Ah, Cato! I love your philosophical stance and the lens you use to ponder the meaning of music!

Many thanks for the nice response!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 16, 2019, 04:42:48 PM
Quote from: San Antone on October 16, 2019, 04:32:35 PM
I enjoyed reading this.   8)

+ 1

I love the image of the kaleidoscope. Music is reborn every time you hear it...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 16, 2019, 08:42:28 PM
Quote from: springrite on October 14, 2019, 01:21:39 AM
That last movement of the 7th is so awful that I almost think maybe it was intentional, an irony or spoof. When I think that way, it sounds absolutely perfect!
That's how i've always understood it too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 16, 2019, 11:59:16 PM
Quote from: springrite on October 14, 2019, 01:21:39 AM
That last movement of the 7th is so awful that I almost think maybe it was intentional, an irony or spoof. When I think that way, it sounds absolutely perfect!
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 16, 2019, 08:42:28 PM
That's how i've always understood it too.

I've always seen the finale of the 7th Symphony something like "the prelude to Die Mesistersinger gone mad". ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on October 17, 2019, 12:50:43 AM
Quote from: ritter on October 16, 2019, 11:59:16 PM


I've always seen the finale of the 7th Symphony something like "the prelude to Die Mesistersinger gone mad". ;)

Cosima Wagner's Apprentice's Merry Pranks
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 17, 2019, 02:13:24 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 16, 2019, 08:42:28 PM
That's how i've always understood it too.

That's a modern -- and I would argue: mistaken -- interpretation that started in the 70s when we loved Mahler enough to admire him but were suspicious enough of C-major to allow for it, unless it was ironic. A bit more on that here: https://www.steinway.com/zh_TW/artists/gustav-mahler (https://www.steinway.com/zh_TW/artists/gustav-mahler)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 17, 2019, 02:31:38 AM
Wow, so many amazing posts since I last checked in here a few days ago. I have much to respond to, so I'll start here:

Quote from: aukhawk on October 15, 2019, 03:58:50 AM
A bit late now since you've already listened to it, but I do think that in the right hands (Honeck springs to mind) the very opening 4 minutes of the 1st Symphony sounds like, well, the opening of the entire symphony cycle.  Similar to the opening of Das Rheingold starting off the entire 4 operas of Der Ring.

I think the opening of Mahler's 1st owes much to the opening of Das Rheingold and also the opening of Beethoven's 9th.  Either way, it's quite a courageous way to start a symphony cycle, big shoes to fill. In any case, we all know that fill them he did, and more, so I guess it worked to his advantage in the end. I think that under the capable baton of Bruno Walter (the recording I listened to, with the Columbia Symphony) the exact effect you describe is realized nicely. In fact, it was hearing that recording that made me want to begin this foolhardy quest in the first place.

@Cato, very eloquently written, my friend. I guess that's one of the things that music is for, expressing meanings that we cannot express with words. In any case, I'm sure the Mahler 9th means many things to many people, and may also mean nothing at all. But it's true that whatever any "meaning" behind it all exists, it is impossible to express in the written word. I will say this much, I'm beginning to disagree more and more that it is supposed to be some kind of big farewell to life or a death ode for himself, though I respect the interpretations of those who see it that way. One final thought for you, Cato; I just wanted to express my gratitude for your point of view from a long life spent with Mahler's music and all the perspective it brings. I got into Mahler's music about 6 months ago, so I am very new to it all, so your experienced perspective is greatly appreciated.

Well, I am continuing my Mahler symphonies quest with the fourth symphony today. I am still quite obsessed with the George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recording, and this is the one I'm listening to:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81SMW8j0rGL._SL1500_.jpg)

I think what he does with bringing out the playful counterpoint of the symphony, especially the first movement, is just amazing and has brought so much new perspective on the symphony to my eyes (and ears). I now find this actually a very dark work. It is playful and indulgent and ebullient, yet also concise and tragic; one must take the good with the bad. This is the work which brought me to Mahler in the first place, and I still rank it as a favorite.

Yesterday, I listened to the third symphony in its entirety in one sitting for, I believe, the first time. I listened to the Leonard Bernstein/New York Philharmonic recording on Sony, and I found it absolutely phenomenal. I now believe it may yet be the greatest of the Wunderhorn symphonies. I will be spending more time with this recording in the future. I would often listen to single movements at a time, just given the extreme length of the work, but I believe it to be much more powerful when played in full.

I have discovered another new favorite in the Bruno Walter/New York Philharmonic recording of the 2nd symphony. I'll detail my thoughts later, as this message is already getting to be quite long.

Anyway, sorry for the novel. Just wanted to share some of my thoughts. I am really crazy about Mahler lately and enjoying this listening project very much. I have no real rules about it and I'm listening to different conductors and orchestras for each symphony. I don't know if I'd be quite so patient if it were a single cycle that I was listening to!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 17, 2019, 03:36:40 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 16, 2019, 02:57:33 PM
Hear! Hear!

Ah, Cato! I love your philosophical stance and the lens you use to ponder the meaning of music! 



Quote from: San Antone on October 16, 2019, 04:32:35 PM
I enjoyed reading this.   8)

Quote from: André on October 16, 2019, 04:42:48 PM
+ 1

I love the image of the kaleidoscope. Music is reborn every time you hear it...


Quote from: vers la flamme on October 17, 2019, 02:31:38 AM

@Cato, very eloquently written, my friend. I guess that's one of the things that music is for, expressing meanings that we cannot express with words. In any case, I'm sure the Mahler 9th means many things to many people, and may also mean nothing at all. But it's true that whatever any "meaning" behind it all exists, it is impossible to express in the written word. I will say this much, I'm beginning to disagree more and more that it is supposed to be some kind of big farewell to life or a death ode for himself, though I respect the interpretations of those who see it that way. One final thought for you, Cato; I just wanted to express my gratitude for your point of view from a long life spent with Mahler's music and all the perspective it brings. I got into Mahler's music about 6 months ago, so I am very new to it all, so your experienced perspective is greatly appreciated.

Well, I am continuing my Mahler symphonies quest with the fourth symphony today. I am still quite obsessed with the George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recording, ...



The question from Vers La Flamme was an intriguing one, an excellent catalyst. 

Certainly one can understand why people interpret the Ninth Symphony as a "farewell," but no, the music can summon forth quite different ideas.

"Music is reborn every time you hear it!"   0:)   Amen!

George Szell was a great conductor, no matter the composer: I do not know of any extant recording in which he seems to have gone awry.  Possibly somebody somewhere has a candidate, but I do not know of any.  Beethoven, Schubert, Wagner, Dvorak, Mahler etc. they are all excellent: and the Cleveland Orchestra in the later 1950's and '60's was not all that well paid by any means: many members had part-time jobs to make ends meet!  Yet they gave their all for the music and to work for the admittedly temperamental Mr. Szell.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 17, 2019, 04:39:38 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 17, 2019, 02:31:38 AM
Well, I am continuing my Mahler symphonies quest with the fourth symphony today. I am still quite obsessed with the George Szell/Cleveland Orchestra recording, and this is the one I'm listening to:

The Szell recording of the 4th haa always held a very high place indeed in the list of available recordings.
I've never heard it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 17, 2019, 04:59:06 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 17, 2019, 04:39:38 AM
The Szell recording of the 4th haa always held a very high place indeed in the list of available recordings.
I've never heard it.

Thank you, YouTube!

https://www.youtube.com/v/aDhb0ztacM0
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 17, 2019, 07:08:28 PM
Jens, please forgive a pedantic question. In your article you say:

QuoteMahler was at the time exacerbated about Richard Strauss's mercantilist attitude to art ...

I've never seen the word exacerbated used in this way. Do you mean exercised?

Sorry. Pedantic mode off. Please continue, folks. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 18, 2019, 02:44:59 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 17, 2019, 04:39:38 AM
The Szell recording of the 4th haa always held a very high place indeed in the list of available recordings.
I've never heard it.
Well worth a listen, my friend. I just picked it up on CD and I have been loving it.

Today I am listening again to Pierre Boulez conducting Mahler's 5th. The 5th was an early favorite in Mahler, but lately it just hasn't been making sense the way it used to. Maybe it's the recording. It blew me away the first time I heard it, so I don't really think that's the problem, but who knows.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2019, 05:04:32 AM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on October 17, 2019, 07:08:28 PM
Jens, please forgive a pedantic question. In your article you say:

I've never seen the word exacerbated used in this way. Do you mean exercised?

Sorry. Pedantic mode off. Please continue, folks. :)

Hmmm... for a second you had me wonder! I suppose "exercised" would work, although that wouldn't have been in my active vocab. for that occasion. Either means a variation of "indignant", "apoplectic", breathlessly outraged... I think "exacerbated" works, even if it mightn't be ideal.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 18, 2019, 08:02:12 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2019, 05:04:32 AM
Hmmm... for a second you had me wonder! I suppose "exercised" would work, although that wouldn't have been in my active vocab. for that occasion. Either means a variation of "indignant", "apoplectic", breathlessly outraged... I think "exacerbated" works, even if it mightn't be ideal.

The primary meaning of "exacerbate" is "to increase or worsen a negative condition," e.g. bitterness of feeling, or a disease.

My dictionary lists "embitter the feelings of" or "exasperate" as secondary definitions.  I would probably have written "exasperated by," or "appalled by," but apparently it is not impossible to use "exacerbate."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 18, 2019, 09:01:02 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 18, 2019, 08:02:12 AM
The primary meaning of "exacerbate" is "to increase or worsen a negative condition," e.g. bitterness of feeling, or a disease.

My dictionary lists "embitter the feelings of" or "exasperate" as secondary definitions.  I would probably have written "exasperated by," or "appalled by," but apparently it is not impossible to use "exacerbate."

The pedant in me wants to say that this would only work if Mahler had been agitated about someone else's mercenary (not mercantilist) dealings and Strauss's similar actions made it worse. 😀
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 02:23:19 AM
I'm listening today to Mahler's infamous 8th symphony, for maybe the 3rd time in my life. I'm determined to understand it, but I am not sure whether this recording (Haitink/RCO) will be the one to make it "click" for me. I'll say this much, I've never appreciated the orchestral introduction to the Faust scene as much as I do now.

My local symphony, the Atlanta SO, will be performing this work soon. I'm no great fan of the symphony but you can bet your ass I'm gonna be there, how many chances will I get in my life to see the "Symphony of a Thousand"? I understand they have recorded it in the past with former maestro Robert Shaw, to mixed reviews.

What do you think of Mahler's "Symphony of a Thousand"? So far I must say I like Part II more than Part I. It was starting to feel like I was being bludgeoned to death with religion, and by a composer whom I know to be wavering at best in his own conviction.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on October 21, 2019, 02:30:29 AM
People here have previously tried to help me with the 8th, after my first recording (Rattle) felt like overbearing joyous shouting. I know one of the suggestions was Nagano, which I did sample and thought there might be something there but I don't think I tried the whole thing.

Now I have the Gielen box, which I'm slowly working through. So I'm not up to the 8th yet, but I'll listen with slight trepidation. The fact is a lot of people who like Mahler take an exception to the 8th, and I might well be one of them. The overbearing joyous shouting might be inherent in the music and it remains to be seen whether any conductor can save me from it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on October 21, 2019, 02:55:50 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 02:23:19 AM
I'm listening today to Mahler's infamous 8th symphony, for maybe the 3rd time in my life. I'm determined to understand it, but I am not sure whether this recording (Haitink/RCO) will be the one to make it "click" for me. I'll say this much, I've never appreciated the orchestral introduction to the Faust scene as much as I do now.

My local symphony, the Atlanta SO, will be performing this work soon. I'm no great fan of the symphony but you can bet your ass I'm gonna be there, how many chances will I get in my life to see the "Symphony of a Thousand"? I understand they have recorded it in the past with former maestro Robert Shaw, to mixed reviews.

What do you think of Mahler's "Symphony of a Thousand"? So far I must say I like Part II more than Part I. It was starting to feel like I was being bludgeoned to death with religion, and by a composer whom I know to be wavering at best in his own conviction.

I think Haitink once said that he himself was not really into the 8th when he recorded it for Philips for his Amsterdam integral. Appreciaton for the work grew when he himself grew older.
Funny enough, I myself always kinda liked the Atlanta/Shaw 8, despite the sometimes awful pronouncation of the German language.

In general, my 'consoling' advice would be: if you don't like/grab/understand the 8th, don't worry. You're not alone.

My personal fav recording is Ozawa, btw. (For what it's worth, it's been too long since I last listened to it.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on October 21, 2019, 03:18:07 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 02:23:19 AM
I'm listening today to Mahler's infamous 8th symphony, for maybe the 3rd time in my life. I'm determined to understand it, but I am not sure whether this recording (Haitink/RCO) will be the one to make it "click" for me. I'll say this much, I've never appreciated the orchestral introduction to the Faust scene as much as I do now.

My local symphony, the Atlanta SO, will be performing this work soon. I'm no great fan of the symphony but you can bet your ass I'm gonna be there, how many chances will I get in my life to see the "Symphony of a Thousand"? I understand they have recorded it in the past with former maestro Robert Shaw, to mixed reviews.

What do you think of Mahler's "Symphony of a Thousand"? So far I must say I like Part II more than Part I. It was starting to feel like I was being bludgeoned to death with religion, and by a composer whom I know to be wavering at best in his own conviction.

The 8th is my least favourite by a long way and I have to be in a special mood to appreciate it. Haitink/Concertgebouw is not a good choice, I found it generally lacklustre and I am a great fan of Haitink in Mahler. On the other hand I find it difficult to think of a recommendation, possibly Chailly/Concertgebouw.

I have never heard the 8th live but think you should definitely do so if you have the chance, I am sure it will be an overwhelming experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2019, 03:50:37 AM
I agree with the others: Haitink's 8th is not good and even Haitink was not holding back with his general dislike of the work. And boy, you can hear it if a conductor doesn't really like the work. Same with Boulez, who only recorded it to finish the cycle. And there's a reason Fischer Ivan hasn't recorded it (yet?) - he can't stand it either and told me once that he'd never record it, simply because there are others out there, that would do so much of a better job at it, than he. I REALLY hope he'll stick to it and be so gutsy and bold and wonderfully honest to invite a guest conductor to lead the BFO in the 8th when it comes to finishing the cycle, which I assume they'd like to do.

I back the consensus re: Ozawa... in fact, on self-indulgent days, I'd like to think that I had a bit of a hand in reviving the wider appreciation of that recording. I've been its disciple - and vociferous about it, too - for something like the last 15 years, if not longer.

Re: The above point of not liking the 8th: Liking it too much can be bad, too: Conductors that tend towards enjoying clowning-about, 'great moments', spectacular hops and grand gestures a little too much (I'm looking at you, Leonard Slatkin... and pretty much any Bernstein student) will push it over the top.  Neither do I like the tres sportif approach (Rattle, Solti, Gielen I) that turns it into an athletic challenge and drives through it in linear fashion. I prefer those best, who really turn it into musical fantasy-land Debussy. Colors, hovering. And neverending, Shepard-tone-style climaxes in the shape of question marks.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 21, 2019, 06:14:31 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 02:23:19 AM
I'm listening today to Mahler's infamous 8th symphony, for maybe the 3rd time in my life. I'm determined to understand it, but I am not sure whether this recording (Haitink/RCO) will be the one to make it "click" for me. I'll say this much, I've never appreciated the orchestral introduction to the Faust scene as much as I do now.

My local symphony, the Atlanta SO, will be performing this work soon. I'm no great fan of the symphony but you can bet your ass I'm gonna be there, how many chances will I get in my life to see the "Symphony of a Thousand"? I understand they have recorded it in the past with former maestro Robert Shaw, to mixed reviews.

What do you think of Mahler's "Symphony of a Thousand"? So far I must say I like Part II more than Part I. It was starting to feel like I was being bludgeoned to death with religion, and by a composer whom I know to be wavering at best in his own conviction.

I've seen it in concert several times and it can pack a real emotional punch in the right hands.  I absolutely adored the gargantuan forces used with Dudamel and the combined chorus's (several Los Angeles choirs), and LA Phil plus Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra.  I was in the front row because the event was completely sold out but called box office every day (as ticketing services told me to do) checking to see if there had been a return ticket.  Every day I called and finally on the day of the concert, I got a returned ticket I was able to pick up!  I was right in front of the very beautiful soloist and I couldn't keep my eyes off her she was so entranced and almost tearing up at the beauty of the spectacle.  The soloist was Manuela Uhl and she made the whole concert feel so intimate.  I hope I didn't freak her out because I couldn't keep my eyes off her even when she was sitting with tremendous noises surrounding us, my focus was on her.  They used 1,200 forces I believe and the experience was unforgettable.  Another nice event that day was bumping in to Dame Julie Andrews who was also in the audience and looked elegant and lovely as you'd expect.  The work isn't flawless but is an experience and in the right hands very moving. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2019, 06:54:13 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2019, 03:50:37 AM
I agree with the others: Haitink's 8th is not good and even Haitink was not holding back with his general dislike of the work. And boy, you can hear it if a conductor doesn't really like the work. Same with Boulez, who only recorded it to finish the cycle. And there's a reason Fischer Ivan hasn't recorded it (yet?) - he can't stand it either and told me once that he'd never record it, simply because there are others out there, that would do so much of a better job at it, than he. I REALLY hope he'll stick to it and be so gutsy and bold and wonderfully honest to invite a guest conductor to lead the BFO in the 8th when it comes to finishing the cycle, which I assume they'd like to do.

I back the consensus re: Ozawa... in fact, on self-indulgent days, I'd like to think that I had a bit of a hand in reviving the wider appreciation of that recording. I've been its disciple - and vociferous about it, too - for something like the last 15 years, if not longer.

Re: The above point of not liking the 8th: Liking it too much can be bad, too: Conductors that tend towards enjoying clowning-about, 'great moments', spectacular hops and grand gestures a little too much (I'm looking at you, Leonard Slatkin... and pretty much any Bernstein student) will push it over the top.  Neither do I like the tres sportif approach (Rattle, Solti, Gielen I) that turns it into an athletic challenge and drives through it in linear fashion. I prefer those best, who really turn it into musical fantasy-land Debussy. Colors, hovering. And neverending, Shepard-tone-style climaxes in the shape of question marks.

I never have liked Mahler's 8th and even upon revisiting it a year or so ago, I turned it off. It's so over-the-top and swims in its' own grandiosity. Thank goodness this symphony didn't end the cycle! This would have been a terrible footnote to an otherwise stellar symphonic cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: j winter on October 21, 2019, 07:05:39 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 21, 2019, 02:30:29 AM
... The fact is a lot of people who like Mahler take an exception to the 8th, and I might well be one of them. ...

+1  I've listened to a lot of Mahler for years, and I agree, the 8th is by far my least favorite.  Even watching Lenny do it on video leaves me cold.  But then I also tend to prefer the orchestral to the vocal side of things, so I think it's largely a matter of personal taste for me. 


But I have to admit, my recent attempts have been few and far between.  It's possible I haven't given it a fair chance -- I'd be curious if anyone recommends a recording that really opened it up for them....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2019, 07:21:01 AM
Quote from: j winter on October 21, 2019, 07:05:39 AM
+1  I've listened to a lot of Mahler for years, and I agree, the 8th is by far my least favorite.  Even watching Lenny do it on video leaves me cold.  But then I also tend to prefer the orchestral to the vocal side of things, so I think it's largely a matter of personal taste for me. 


But I have to admit, my recent attempts have been few and far between.  It's possible I haven't given it a fair chance -- I'd be curious if anyone recommends a recording that really opened it up for them....

The fact that you haven't spent a lot of time with the symphony speaks volumes and you haven't felt the need to revisit it. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 21, 2019, 07:40:12 AM
Interesting to read the negativity on the 8th. For a lot of Mahler fans, it's the least favorite.

I heard Marin Alsop conduct it at Ravinia this year, and the first part was tremendous, just as a sonic experience. Plus it was done with the necessary fervor and dedication. The part where I lost interest was the long middle of the second half, i.e. all that solo singing before the big choral finish and after the instrumental intro. I just couldn't stay interested in what these people with Latin names were trying to tell me.

Still, it is a hell of a piece to hear live, and it got a huge ovation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: j winter on October 21, 2019, 08:02:09 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 21, 2019, 07:21:01 AM
The fact that you haven't spent a lot of time with the symphony speaks volumes and you haven't felt the need to revisit it. ;)

It's a fair cop...  $:)   Honestly, I try to keep an open mind, but there's only so much time, and an awful lot of music out there to be heard...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on October 21, 2019, 08:31:05 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 21, 2019, 07:40:12 AM
what these people with Latin names were trying to tell me.

Is this an unused title for an eighth movement of the Third Symphony?  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on October 21, 2019, 09:31:24 AM
Blame Goethe. It's not Mahler's fault but that weird final scene of the weird second part of Faust. (And the Latin names are not the weirdest feature by some margin.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 21, 2019, 09:50:43 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 21, 2019, 08:31:05 AM
Is this an unused title for an eighth movement of the Third Symphony?  ;)

:laugh:

Quote from: Jo498 on October 21, 2019, 09:31:24 AM
Blame Goethe. It's not Mahler's fault but that weird final scene of the weird second part of Faust. (And the Latin names are not the weirdest feature by some margin.)

Yes, I tried reading Faust Part II years ago and didn't get very far. For a supposed drama, it's quite anti-dramatic. Maybe it should be read as a philosophical treatise in verse, or something like that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on October 21, 2019, 10:10:45 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 21, 2019, 07:40:12 AM
Interesting to read the negativity on the 8th. For a lot of Mahler fans, it's the least favorite.

I heard Marin Alsop conduct it at Ravinia this year, and the first part was tremendous, just as a sonic experience. Plus it was done with the necessary fervor and dedication. The part where I lost interest was the long middle of the second half, i.e. all that solo singing before the big choral finish and after the instrumental intro. I just couldn't stay interested in what these people with Latin names were trying to tell me.

Still, it is a hell of a piece to hear live, and it got a huge ovation.

Think of Part II as a long hymn to the Virgin, with a quick epiphanic glimpse of the "Mater Gloriosa" that leads to Faust being triumphally escorted into Heaven (although of the actual characters in Faust, only Margaret shows up in this scene, as "a Penitent").  You might want to ignore the actual text and simply listen to what Mahler does with the musical material.

But there are a lot of moving parts in this symphony, and therefore lots of places for it to go off kilter. My favorite is probably Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco, and even he suffers from a common problem: the baritone soloist near the start of Part II sounds like he is singing the passage while trying to chew the words.

I think Chailly/Gewandhaus on DVD is a good option as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 21, 2019, 11:09:05 AM
Greetings and Salutations to All!

You will most probably not be surprised to read that the Eighth Symphony is a favorite of mine! 

Quote from: Biffo on October 21, 2019, 03:18:07 AM

I have never heard the 8th live but think you should definitely do so if you have the chance, I am sure it will be an overwhelming experience.


Absolutely!  I heard it in the 1990's in Cleveland with Robert Shaw conducting!  A marvelous experience on all levels!

Quote from: JBS on October 21, 2019, 10:10:45 AM

Think of Part II as a long hymn to the Virgin, with a quick epiphanic glimpse of the "Mater Gloriosa" that leads to Faust being triumphally escorted into Heaven (although of the actual characters in Faust, only Margaret shows up in this scene, as "a Penitent").  You might want to ignore the actual text and simply listen to what Mahler does with the musical material.

But there are a lot of moving parts in this symphony...


Yes, which therefore links it to the Trinity hymn of Movement I.

"But there are a lot of moving parts in this symphony..."   ;)   8)

True in more than one sense!   0:)    I have the Boulez DGG recording: excellent performance!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 21, 2019, 12:34:04 PM
I've never been much of a fan of the Eighth, I must admit. I perceive structural problems in it, which can be summarised in this image:

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSM_fU_J-1A0w0WvC28hm8ACHBbMq6nlkE4-WJBRtNF6Pyttem5VA)

The 100 kg ball of course representing the dense, unrelenting shorter first part, where IMHO the listener gets not a moment of rest from the very start, with the chorus shouting their lungs out "Veni, Veni, VEEENIII". The second part has its longueurs, but to me at least is more agreeable in general. And, I must say, the ending, from Mater Gloriosa's lines "Komm! Hebe dich zu höhern Sphären!" onwards, is simply sublime...music of the spheres! (For purely personal, nostalgic reasons related to me childhood, I am also particularly fond of the "Blicket auf..." segment).

Also, seeing the work (shortcomings and all) live is a great experience . I had the chance to do so some years ago here in Madrid with the Spanish National Orchestra and (reinforced) Chorus, with distinguished vocalists, under Josep Pons. The performance was luckily filmed and released by DG on DVD (a lavishly produced set), but AFAIK only distributed in the Spanish domestic market.

[asin]B0189B4IT0[/asin]

Of the performances on record, the only one I find generally satisfying is Giuseppe Sinopoli's with the Philharmonia Orchestra on DG (an interesting but irregular cycle IMHO, with its strengths—such as the Fourth and the Eighth, which he nails—, and it's weaknesses—particularly the Sixth, which I can only describe as "irritatingly eccentric"  ::)).

[asin]B00005ONMO[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 21, 2019, 01:38:12 PM
I'm not crazy about the 8th but certainly do not dislike it. And I love Haitink's version of it  >:D.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 21, 2019, 02:01:12 PM
Quote from: ritter on October 21, 2019, 12:34:04 PM

The 100 kg ball of course representing the dense, unrelenting shorter first part, where IMHO the listener gets not a moment of rest from the very start, with the chorus shouting their lungs out "Veni, Veni, VEEENIII"


Some hyperbole there: perhaps it seems that way, but allow me to point out the nearly Kammermusik atmosphere beginning at Cue 19 (p. 21 of the Universal Edition score), which is played mainly pp and the continuation of that atmosphere into Cue 23 and beyond, played at various levels of softness, as it goes through a quasi-Webernian fragmentation (pages 26-28 of the score).  Another respite from the forte/fortissimo occurs at Cue 69 and last for nearly 10 more cues.

Perhaps the performances heard are with conductors who do not observe the quiet sections properly?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 02:57:07 PM
Back to Boulez for a moment. I see SurprisedByBeauty says that Boulez did not like the work and recorded it only to complete the cycle. Is this true, do you have a source on it? Boulez has actually recorded Mahler's 8th multiple times. I'm listening to it now on Youtube and the sound is phenomenal, great singing, GREAT bass... I'm thinking of maybe getting it. On the other hand I am also looking at the Antoni Wit/Warsaw recording on Naxos which also sounds phenomenal from what I've heard. I think this work may demand modern digital sound.

I am determined to like this music. I'll buy 10 recordings until I find the right one if I have to!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2019, 03:40:13 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 02:57:07 PM
Back to Boulez for a moment. I see SurprisedByBeauty says that Boulez did not like the work and recorded it only to complete the cycle. Is this true, do you have a source on it? Boulez has actually recorded Mahler's 8th multiple times. I'm listening to it now on Youtube and the sound is phenomenal, great singing, GREAT bass... I'm thinking of maybe getting it. On the other hand I am also looking at the Antoni Wit/Warsaw recording on Naxos which also sounds phenomenal from what I've heard. I think this work may demand modern digital sound.

I am determined to like this music. I'll buy 10 recordings until I find the right one if I have to!  :laugh:

I would have to dig up the source re: Boulez. Unfortunately I don't have it off the top of my head. Re: "recorded it multiple times" - really? I was unaware of that, nor could I find anything on a cursory google- and youtube-search. It would certainly surprised me, if there was anything out there that wasn't part of those performances from which the CD recording was ultimately made.

Wit is VERY good, indeed, as far as my ears are concerned. Perhaps this will give you further ideas: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 04:04:13 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2019, 03:40:13 PM
I would have to dig up the source re: Boulez. Unfortunately I don't have it off the top of my head. Re: "recorded it multiple times" - really? I was unaware of that, nor could I find anything on a cursory google- and youtube-search. It would certainly surprised me, if there was anything out there that wasn't part of those performances from which the CD recording was ultimately made.

Wit is VERY good, indeed, as far as my ears are concerned. Perhaps this will give you further ideas: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/12/106-years-mahler-eighth-the-best-recordings/)

I saw this earlier:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IasAAOSwNXpch2hF/s-l1600.jpg)

Couldn't find much more information on it, but looks like clearly a different recording, with the BBC Symphony, a younger Boulez.

Thanks for the word on Wit. I'm a big fan of his. I'll have to check it out some more.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 04:14:55 PM
It's odd that you said that about Boulez disliking the 8th, and wrote it in that Forbes article, as I actually remember reading a Boulez interview in which he praised Mahler's 8th, saying that it was one of the best in the cycle, but I can't find it now. Could have even been a video interview.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on October 21, 2019, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 04:04:13 PM
I saw this earlier:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IasAAOSwNXpch2hF/s-l1600.jpg)

Couldn't find much more information on it, but looks like clearly a different recording, with the BBC Symphony, a younger Boulez.

Thanks for the word on Wit. I'm a big fan of his. I'll have to check it out some more.

I prefer this BBC version over the Berlin one. It has more of a sense of occasion - really kicks some a...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2019, 04:31:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 04:04:13 PM
I saw this earlier:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IasAAOSwNXpch2hF/s-l1600.jpg)

Couldn't find much more information on it, but looks like clearly a different recording, with the BBC Symphony, a younger Boulez.
Thanks for the word on Wit. I'm a big fan of his. I'll have to check it out some more.

Right! That 1975 recording. I remember now being just as surprised on finding out about its existence as I was now, again. :-) I haven't heard it, but I believe André readily that it's more momentous than the Berlin one. Come to think of it, there must be a 1974 New York performance (pirated) somewhere, too.

As to the interview where he might have spoken positively about M8, it might have been one with Jörg Königsdorf. I can't find it now (was it included among the Universal Edition interviews?) but could ask him if Boulez said anything about the 8th that was either positive or not.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 21, 2019, 05:09:41 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2019, 04:31:23 PM
Right! That 1975 recording. I remember now being just as surprised on finding out about its existence as I was now, again. :-) I haven't heard it, but I believe André readily that it's more momentous than the Berlin one. Come to think of it, there must be a 1974 New York performance (pirated) somewhere, too.

As to the interview where he might have spoken positively about M8, it might have been one with Jörg Königsdorf. I can't find it now (was it included among the Universal Edition interviews?) but could ask him if Boulez said anything about the 8th that was either positive or not.

So in the 1970's Boulez was recording large choral "symphonies" by the Central Europeans Mahler and Schoenberg: the complete original Das Klagende Lied

(https://img.discogs.com/pZX80KQ7_86S88sZH_Kxx_rSKNY=/fit-in/291x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4312347-1361448310-6289.jpeg.jpg)

and one of the greatest recordings ever...

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~bkAAOSwdGFYzvuC/s-l640.jpg)

I would say that conductors do not usually conduct large, expensive choral works without having some affinity, if not enthusiasm, for the works and the composers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 21, 2019, 08:39:01 PM
It's ironic, isn't it? The Eighth was a big success when Mahler himself conducted its premiere in 1910 - one of the few he enjoyed in his lifetime. And now it's his least popular symphony. Tempora mutantur.

And I'm afraid I have to include myself in the chorus (ha) of those who feel rather indifferent, to put it charitably, about this symphony. I'm not a fan of much classical-style singing anyway, so to have so much of it just ain't my cuppa tea.

(On the other hand, the Third is my favorite Mahler symphony and the Second is somewhere in the top half, and they both have singing in them ... well, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, right? :D)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2019, 08:44:55 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on October 21, 2019, 08:39:01 PM
It's ironic, isn't it? The Eighth was a big success when Mahler himself conducted its premiere in 1910 - one of the few he enjoyed in his lifetime. And now it's his least popular symphony. Tempora mutantur.

And I'm afraid I have to include myself in the chorus (ha) of those who feel rather indifferent, to put it charitably, about this symphony. I'm not a fan of much classical-style singing anyway, so to have so much of it just ain't my cuppa tea.

(On the other hand, the Third is my favorite Mahler symphony and the Second is somewhere in the top half, and they both have singing in them ... well, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, right? :D)

Mahler's 3rd is most definitely one of my favorites. It's kind of an unwieldy animal, but I think it works well. The 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th are prime Mahler, IMHO. Then there's all those wonderful song cycles and Das Lied von der Erde.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 21, 2019, 11:06:16 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 21, 2019, 02:01:12 PM
Some hyperbole there perhaps...
Yes, perhaps...but only a teensy bit of hyperbole.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 22, 2019, 01:22:11 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 02:57:07 PM
I am determined to like this music. I'll buy 10 recordings until I find the right one if I have to!  :laugh:

I don't understand the need for this.  Here is another example, from the Sibelius thread:

Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 21, 2019, 02:31:28 PM
... I never was too keen on the 4th, its dark and much more introspective nature is still impenetrable to me, but I haven't given up yet. I hope at any moment it clicks on me.

Why bother?  There is enough very good music out there to last anyone a lifetime, without spending valuable time listening to stuff you don't like.  I'm picky about how I spend my time with music, and if something doesn't engage me (it might even be a favourite recording that I've just turned to at the wrong moment) I'll put it aside straight away and turn to something else.  I'm listening at home, I can do that - not tied to a concert-hall middle seat.  And I have very little impulse to explore new avenues or to stray far from my well-trodden paths.  Of course I know I miss a lot of very fine music this way (including the complete outputs of some top-tier composers), but the stuff I do know is more than sufficient.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 01:27:41 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on October 22, 2019, 01:22:11 AM
I don't understand the need for this.  Here is another example, from the Sibelius thread:

Why bother?  There is enough very good music out there to last anyone a lifetime, without spending valuable time listening to stuff you don't like.  I'm picky about how I spend my time with music, and if something doesn't engage me (it might even be a favourite recording that I've just turned to at the wrong moment) I'll put it aside straight away and turn to something else.  I'm listening at home, I can do that - not tied to a concert-hall middle seat.  And I have very little impulse to explore new avenues or to stray far from my well-trodden paths.  Of course I know I miss a lot of very fine music this way (including the complete outputs of some top-tier composers), but the stuff I do know is more than sufficient.

The reason is because there is so much music that did not engage me at all upon first listen – let's take Mahler, at large, as an example – that I now count among my favorites. If I would have given up on Mahler so quickly my life would have lost a lot of richness, as he's now one of my very favorite composers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2019, 03:33:07 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 01:27:41 AM
The reason is because there is so much music that did not engage me at all upon first listen – let's take Mahler, at large, as an example – that I now count among my favorites. If I would have given up on Mahler so quickly my life would have lost a lot of richness, as he's now one of my very favorite composers.

Yes!  Some years ago here at GMG I recounted my first attempts with Pelleas und Melisande by Arnold Schoenberg.  To be sure I was rather young, but I had followed other complex works.  This one I could not grasp at first: it simply did not cohere as a "story."  Yet I knew that 1. Arnold Schoenberg was a great composer and 2. he was at least a spiritual descendant of Mahler and Bruckner, and a musico-spiritual descendant of BrahmsSchoenberg would be worth the effort.

Then upon a fourth or fifth attempt, everything came together!  And now it is among my most favorite works!  And things like Jakobsleiter and the Violin Concerto (also great favorites) I later easily apprehended.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2019, 05:59:03 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 01:27:41 AM
The reason is because there is so much music that did not engage me at all upon first listen – let's take Mahler, at large, as an example – that I now count among my favorites. If I would have given up on Mahler so quickly my life would have lost a lot of richness, as he's now one of my very favorite composers.

Quote from: Cato on October 22, 2019, 03:33:07 AM
Yes!  Some years ago here at GMG I recounted my first attempts with Pelleas und Melisande by Arnold Schoenberg...

Yes, and yes. For me it would have been the Eroica lost if I hadn't persisted over several years.

La flamme, I admire your persistence with the M8 and, as one of the few lovers of the 8th here, I really hope it eventually clicks for you. It's a stunning symphony. I think that first movement one of the most thrilling pieces Mahler composed--even though it feels occasionally like blows to the body, ears, and senses delivered repeatedly by the hammer borrowed from the 6th  8) Recommendations? Wit, yes, and Jens' Ozawa. My personal favorite is Chailly.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 06:10:53 AM
I just ordered the Wit, y'all talked me out of the Boulez - but I'm still curious and will probably go for it, too, eventually!

@Surprised, I may have been mixing it up with another conductor's interview. I watched the Universal Edition interview again and Boulez's comments on the 8th could be described as neutral more than favorable, discussing the challenges in maintaining tempo throughout such a massive movement as Part 2 of the 8th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 22, 2019, 06:24:12 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 06:10:53 AM
... I may have been mixing it up with another conductor's interview. I watched the Universal Edition interview again and Boulez's comments on the 8th could be described as neutral more than favorable, discussing the challenges in maintaining tempo throughout such a massive movement as Part 2 of the 8th.
I also recall reading (in a Spanish music magazine) an interview with Boulez stating that he thought he wouldn't record the Eighth, as he didn't care that much for the work. I think that interview was later included in an anthology of such conversations made by Gerard Akoka (in French), but I cannot locate it now (I've recently moved into a new flat, and my books are on their shelves, but not yet in any kind of order  ::)).

Later I was told by a friend (no certifiable source mentioned) that Boulez financed the DG recording of the Eighth himself with the sole intention of completing his cycle.

The earlier version from the BBC is not a "recording", but rather the broadcast of a live concert at the Proms IIRC. I have it, but haven't listened to it yet (and again, my CDs are completely disorganized at this point, so I can't locate it--I think I have some work to do this weekend in this respect  ;)).

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on October 22, 2019, 06:33:41 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 21, 2019, 05:09:41 PM
I would say that conductors do not usually conduct large, expensive choral works without having some affinity, if not enthusiasm, for the works and the composers.

But conductors do conduct symphonies they're not fond of in order to fulfil a contractual obligation to complete a cycle.

I'm not sure what the point is of bringing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder into it, either. It doesn't follow that if (presumably) Boulez liked Gurrelieder, he must therefore like some other large choral work. That makes about as much sense as saying that because I like playing a particular piano sonata I like playing piano sonatas as a general class. Heck, the fact that I love playing some Beethoven piano sonatas doesn't mean I like playing each and every one of them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on October 22, 2019, 01:37:52 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 22, 2019, 06:33:41 AM
But conductors do conduct symphonies they're not fond of in order to fulfil a contractual obligation to complete a cycle.

I'm not sure what the point is of bringing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder into it, either. It doesn't follow that if (presumably) Boulez liked Gurrelieder, he must therefore like some other large choral work. That makes about as much sense as saying that because I like playing a particular piano sonata I like playing piano sonatas as a general class. Heck, the fact that I love playing some Beethoven piano sonatas doesn't mean I like playing each and every one of them.

No, I was simply reminiscing that he brought out recordings of large choral works in the 1970's, and that one of them was a Mahler work.  Certainly if the money is good enough, a conductor might take on a work not at the top of his list of favorites.   ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on October 22, 2019, 01:42:26 PM
Quote from: Cato on October 22, 2019, 01:37:52 PM
No, I was simply reminiscing that he brought out recordings of large choral works in the 1970's, and that one of them was a Mahler work.  Certainly if the money is good enough, a conductor might take on a work not at the top of his list of favorites.   ;)

Well, I'd say that Gurrelieder and Klagende Lied are the works were Mahler and Schoenberg (early Schoenberg, at least) approach each other most closely,
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 22, 2019, 01:42:26 PM
Well, I'd say that Gurrelieder and Klagende Lied are the works were Mahler and Schoenberg (early Schoenberg, at least) approach each other most closely,
I remember reading a post here once in which someone posited that there was a link between Das Klagende Lied, Gurre-Lieder, Sibelius' Kullervo and Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony, all early, huge choral works with many similarities from four composers who went in completely different directions from one another. Sign of the times, maybe.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on October 22, 2019, 01:57:15 PM
The appetite for huge and the appetite for choral were both much larger at that point in history, yes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 23, 2019, 02:58:03 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JZarhot4L.jpg)

Listening to the Barbirolli/Berlin Mahler 9th this morning. I swear, this symphony is a slow burn, ever revealing itself to me, layer by layer. This has definitely been my most meaningful listening experience with this work. I think hearing the previous 8 symphonies and Das Lied in the weeks leading up to today have helped me to understand where he was coming from with this music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 23, 2019, 03:23:13 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 23, 2019, 02:58:03 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JZarhot4L.jpg)
Mahler 9, Barbirolli (https://amzn.to/2BA0l5L)

Listening to the Barbirolli/Berlin Mahler 9th this morning. I swear, this symphony is a slow burn, ever revealing itself to me, layer by layer. This has definitely been my most meaningful listening experience with this work. I think hearing the previous 8 symphonies and Das Lied in the weeks leading up to today have helped me to understand where he was coming from with this music.

Thumbs up!

It helps, probably, that when having reached the Ninth, you will have already made your way through three of the four more 'difficult' Mahler symphonies, consecutively (7, 8, DLvdE). Reaching the Ninth is almost like feeling: "Ah, that's what you've been after, all these years."
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on October 23, 2019, 03:52:28 AM
I'd say Das Lied von der Erde is actually one of the least difficult symphonies, or in the middle. For me the most difficult were/are 8,3,7,6 and 9, but except for 8 all with parts/movements that are fairly accessible.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 23, 2019, 06:15:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 23, 2019, 03:52:28 AM
I'd say Das Lied von der Erde is actually one of the least difficult symphonies, or in the middle. For me the most difficult were/are 8,3,7,6 and 9, but except for 8 all with parts/movements that are fairly accessible.

In order of difficulty (however loose a concept that may be), for me:

7
Lied
3

...and the rest I've kind-of always loved. In the Ninth I always forget about the inner movements and the Eighth can have its longeurs in the second part, but I jumped on those very readily. The Lied may be simpler, but for whatever reason, it didn't click with me for the longest time. Six I also loved right out of the gate. With Barbirolli, actually. At least that was when I realized just how much I love the 6th. And with No.3 I found that Boulez' recording helped me immensely in sort-of lifting the carpet and letting me look at the machinations inside. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on October 23, 2019, 07:10:35 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 23, 2019, 06:15:07 AM
In order of difficulty (however loose a concept that may be), for me:

7
Lied
3

...and the rest I've kind-of always loved. In the Ninth I always forget about the inner movements and the Eighth can have its longeurs in the second part, but I jumped on those very readily. The Lied may be simpler, but for whatever reason, it didn't click with me for the longest time. Six I also loved right out of the gate. With Barbirolli, actually. At least that was when I realized just how much I love the 6th. And with No.3 I found that Boulez' recording helped me immensely in sort-of lifting the carpet and letting me look at the machinations inside. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.)

I fell in love with the inner movements of the Ninth the very first time I heard them (which would have been Walter's 1938 VPO recording, btw).  The Finale merely sealed the deal.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on October 23, 2019, 09:06:59 AM
For me it is/was sheer length with the 3rd. It's not more complex than most of the others but I tend to feel tired already after the first movement. Than a 15 min menuet which is kind of boring and so on. So it's less perplexity than a mixture of "so what?" and "Why not everything half as long?". The 8th I still don't know well enough to really comment on.
I found 1,2,4 and 5 fairly accessible early on, the first two finales are too sprawling but usually entertaining enough. I think I had some problems, maybe again failing concentration at the end of a lengthy piece with "Der Abschied" as a newbie and the two short tenor songs are very lightweight and may appear trivial, but overall Das Lied was emotionally quite easy to get. (I also liked most of the other Mahler song cycles almost immediately and knew many of them before several of the symphonies.) Admittedly, I still don't quite think of it as a symphony but a huge song cycle that is more symphonically integrated than the other song cycles.

The 9th has a tough first movement, but once one is somewhat familiar with it, all is well as the 3 remaining movements are less complex and more accessible in most respects.
With the 6th for me again the finale is the problem. By far the most difficult movement of the work (whereas the 1st movement is maybe one of the most clearly and obviously structured Mahler pieces) and one has already spent 45 min with sometimes dark and harrowing music. Still, the 6th is probably my favorite after the 9th now. The 7th has a first movement that is only rivalled by the 9th in difficulty, I think, then 3 fairly easy (if maybe confusing because of their different characters) pieces and a finale that for most seems more an emotional than a musical stumbling block. While "Rondo" might play down some of the complexity, it basically is just a huge Rondo after all and once one accepts the hilarity there is no reason not to enjoy the ride.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 23, 2019, 10:46:42 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 23, 2019, 03:52:28 AM
I'd say Das Lied von der Erde is actually one of the least difficult symphonies, or in the middle. For me the most difficult were/are 8,3,7,6 and 9, but except for 8 all with parts/movements that are fairly accessible.

Agreed! @Surprised, I also agree that having 7, 8, and DLvdE to lead up to the 9th was helpful! I find the 9th to be one of the more challenging ones, but less so than the 8th and maybe the 7th. Das Lied was love on first listen for me but I understand some find it more challenging too.

That was an extremely enjoyable listen this morning though!! Great performance!! I have had themes from the symphony in my head all day
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 24, 2019, 01:08:12 AM
I don't see anything difficult or challenging about the 9th at all.  The first movement is Mahler at his absolute best, sustained from start to finish.  The middle movements can be viewed (as in many other symphonies) as light relief.  I remember seeing Roger Norrington conduct the 9th (on a televised Prom) and at the end of the 2nd movement he drew a laugh from the audience - it ends on a trite little upturned phrase on the flute and as he conducted this he turned to the audience and made a comical clown-like gesture.
Having stood through an entire 9th myself - with the more serious-minded Haitink conducting - such relief is very welcome.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on October 24, 2019, 01:30:18 AM
It all depends. When I was 17 I had been listening to classical for about 3 years or less. I think I had heard Mahler's 4th and mayb also the 1st and 2nd. I listened to or taped #9 from the radio. The very sound of the beginning with the muted horn was irritating to me and an almost 30 min first movement was very difficult, almost regardless of how difficult the music was. TBH I still find such long movements taxing.
One could also argue that someone who does not find a huge complex movement like the first of Mahler's 9th at least somewhat challenging, is missing something. That's not Zigeunerbaron (despite quoting another Strauss waltz), it's supposed to be demanding music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on October 24, 2019, 01:45:39 AM
I won't rise to that  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 24, 2019, 08:42:56 AM
I disagree that the inner movements are any lighter than the first and fourth. They are only just beginning to make sense to me. Each movement is its own tour de force, but especially the first. Talk about an emotional roller coaster. This is music of immense power, but I think it does not reveal itself to the listener all at once, but rather bit by bit. This is my listening experience anyway, YMMV, obviously. The only symphonies I find more challenging than the 9th are 3, 6, 8 and possibly 7. In my book, the bigger the challenge, the bigger the reward. Beginning to understand Mahler's 9th over the past couple months has been extremely enriching.

I listened to the Karajan live Mahler 9 this morning. Amazing stuff... it's as good as people say.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on October 24, 2019, 05:51:52 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 24, 2019, 01:30:18 AM
It all depends. When I was 17 I had been listening to classical for about 3 years or less. I think I had heard Mahler's 4th and mayb also the 1st and 2nd. I listened to or taped #9 from the radio. The very sound of the beginning with the muted horn was irritating to me and an almost 30 min first movement was very difficult, almost regardless of how difficult the music was. TBH I still find such long movements taxing.
One could also argue that someone who does not find a huge complex movement like the first of Mahler's 9th at least somewhat challenging, is missing something. That's not Zigeunerbaron (despite quoting another Strauss waltz), it's supposed to be demanding music.

When I first heard M9, I wondered why they didn't edit out the instruments warming up at the start of the symphony. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: springrite on October 24, 2019, 08:02:53 PM
Quote from: JBS on October 24, 2019, 05:51:52 PM
When I first heard M9, I wondered why they didn't edit out the instruments warming up at the start of the symphony. :)
Really? M9 opening is fairly conventional. It is the Berg VC that truly sound like tuning.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 25, 2019, 01:46:20 AM
Quote from: springrite on October 24, 2019, 08:02:53 PM
Really? M9 opening is fairly conventional. It is the Berg VC that truly sound like tuning.

Conventional in what way? What other symphony do you know that starts anything like that? Agreed re: Berg. A beautiful piece.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on October 25, 2019, 07:28:06 AM
The Berg VC was written more than 20 years later. The beginning of Mahler's 9th may not be avantgarde for 1910. But for someone who has listened a few years to classical, mostly Mozart tto Brahms/Dvorak/Tchaikovsky it can be rather alienating. As I said at 17-18 I found the sounds the horn makes  simply ugly, could hardly make out any tunes etc. Compared to that the beginning of his 2nd or 6th is very straightforward and easily identiable for anyone familiar with Beethoven's and Brahms' symphonies (although these two were not quite as obsessed with alla marcia).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 15, 2019, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 17, 2019, 11:43:00 PM
. . . . . . . Some of the others might show some oddities (such as the slight song finale of the 4th)
Slight song finale of the 4th? How, I wonder, would you have a child's view of heaven portrayed then?
Maybe you prefer the Wagnerian approach some vocalists inflict this movement with?
On the other hand I confess the text can come across as almost absurd unless rendered with an innocent 'childish' feeling and tone of voice
such as Schwarzkopf demonstrated.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on November 16, 2019, 12:47:01 AM
You are missing the point. The provocation is to have  a child's view of paradise (which is more like "Schlaraffenland" (Cockaigne) as a symphonic finale at all. It certainly was uncommon in late romanticism to have a lied within a symphony at all but clearly Urlicht in the second or the lied movements in the third as short intermezzi within a long symphony are less jarring than a lied as finale.
I think people who have basically grown up with Mahler whose music has been well established for at least half a century by now, can hardly appreciate how odd a lot of it must have appeared to the contemporaries.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 16, 2019, 01:16:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 16, 2019, 12:47:01 AM
You are missing the point. The provocation is to have  a child's view of paradise (which is more like ";" (Cockaigne) as a symphonic finale at all. It certainly was uncommon in late romanticism to have a lied within a symphony at all but clearly Urlicht in the second or the lied movements in the third as short intermezzi within a long symphony are less jarring than a lied as finale.
I think people who have basically grown up with Mahler whose music has been well established for at least half a century by now, can hardly appreciate how odd a lot of it must have appeared to the contemporaries.
Thank you for the symphonic musicology lecture. However, my comment was made due to the use of 'slight' as in "Some of the others might show some oddities (such as the slight song finale of the 4th)" 
Your usage of 'provocation' however I also find problematic. Problematic to whom? Modern audiences or one being exposed to the 4th at it's first performance? If the later I can agree. However the comment "Some of the others might show some oddities (such as the slight song finale of the 4th)' does not in any way reduce my objection to the use of 'slight'. If the final movement of Mahler's 4th can be described as slight with any accuracy I wish there were more such 'slight' movements to enjoy.
I can assure you my reaction upon first hearing the last movement of the 4th was to sink without question into its meaning and mood. Possibly that first exposure via Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's recording tainted my view forever as I find most subsequent performances lacking the innocence, youthful joy and childlike tone she managed to conveyso very convincingly
It is often claimed one's initial exposure to a work biases our view of those heard subsequently. I'm happy to be accused of that in this instance.

I cannot, no matter which way I look at or listen to the last movement of the 4th see anything odd about it unless some overly forceful prima donna taints it with a more 'mature' approach as most unfortunately have.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on November 16, 2019, 01:44:25 AM
I think you are reading a criticism or denigration into my remarks that was not intended at all.
Simply look at the symphonic tradition Mahler clearly was a part of. Vocal parts are rare, even in programmatic pieces and more often it is a choir for making a piece ever more monumental (like Mahler out-Beethovening Beethoven's 9th in his 2nd).
The whole 4th symphony is at least odd or challenging within this tradition. It uses a pseudo-Haydnesque tone at some places in the first movement and to have a 10 min song as a finale is very strange. And it is obviously slight compared to any instrumental finale by Brucker, Brahms or Beethoven and also compared to Mahler 1-3. This is simply stating facts, not denigrating the fourth or Das himmlische Leben as a bad piece. This is not at all my opinion or intention.

Note also that an older plan for the 3rd symphony was to have "Das himmlische Leben" as another intermezzo movement "Was mir das Kind erzählt" ("what the child tells me"; the eventual movements 2-6 had similar subtitles like "what the flowers tell me" etc.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on November 16, 2019, 02:19:22 AM
I tend to agree with Jo498's post above, and add that the Fourth is probably my favourite of all of Mahler's symphonies. Yes, it may be the odd man out, but it's oddities (mainly the subdued final lied movement) are strokes of genius IMHO.

Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 15, 2019, 05:26:37 PM
On the other hand I confess the text can come across as almost absurd unless rendered with an innocent 'childish' feeling and tone of voice
such as Schwarzkopf demonstrated.
Strange how we can perceive performances in different ways. Mme. Schwarzkopf (in the Klemperer recording) sounds to me not in the least childlike and innocent, but rather like an angry Hausfrau.  :D

Welcome to the forum, btw, dissily Mordentroge.  :)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 16, 2019, 04:29:07 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 16, 2019, 02:19:22 AM

Strange how we can perceive performances in different ways. Mme. Schwarzkopf (in the Klemperer recording) sounds to me not in the least childlike and innocent, but rather like an angry Hausfrau.  :D


Yes. ;D ;) I always feel like I'm sternly being reminded of not riding my bicycle on the pavement, listening to Schwarzkopf.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 16, 2019, 05:17:51 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 16, 2019, 12:47:01 AM
You are missing the point. The provocation is to have  a child's view of paradise (which is more like "Schlaraffenland" (Cockaigne) as a symphonic finale at all. It certainly was uncommon in late romanticism to have a lied within a symphony at all but clearly Urlicht in the second or the lied movements in the third as short intermezzi within a long symphony are less jarring than a lied as finale.
I think people who have basically grown up with Mahler whose music has been well established for at least half a century by now, can hardly appreciate how odd a lot of it must have appeared to the contemporaries.

+1.

Placed in its proper historical context the 4th is indeed a very unconventional work, esp. given that it was labeled a symphony, coming a mere 15 years after Brahms' own 4th symphony, a work that for many represents the acme of the symphonic form.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on November 16, 2019, 11:30:14 AM

Crossxposted from the WAYL2 thread:

Quote
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81jm4OOW1uL._SX522_.jpg)

This stretches the concept of Schönberg's chamber performances for the Association for Private Musical Performances. Schönberg did start the work and called for an ensemble of string quintet, wind quartet, horn, piano, harmonium and 2 percussionists - a total of 14 players. He got halfway through the first movement before leaving it off in mid air. The Association folded very shortly after and Schönberg didn't return to the work. It was left to german composer Rainer Riehn (1941-2015) to finish the task along the lines of Schönberg's instrumental specifications.

There's another such arrangement that picks up on the Schönberg/Riehn concoction and twitches it to a different end, increasing the number of players (24) and singers (soprano, alto, tenor and baritone). It has been recorded by conductor/arranger Hansjörg Albrecht. I was very impressed by it. The 'pure' Schönberg/Riehn score has been recorded a few times and is no doubt played with some regularity. Whatever validity one is prepared to confer on that type of endeavour, in the end it's the musical results that justifies (or sinks) it.

Among the many emotions and feelings the original (Mahler) generates, the only one I miss here is the sensation of wallowing in a sea of beauty, with massed strings and triple/quadruple winds and brass. Mahler scored very transparently most of the time, with individual voices like contrabassoon, mandolin, harps given plenty of exposure. Obviously the huge orchestral textures cannot be replicated in an orchestral reduction, therefore expectations will not be the same. Within that entirely different perspective one hears the interplay of voice and instruments with startling clarity - much more immediate, with the feeling that everything is exposed, with no place to hide - musical hypervigilance, somto speak.

On this recording both voices are exceptionally well chosen (not always the case, marketing considerations often imposing less than ideal choices). As a matter of fact, I'd return to this recording just for the pleasure of hearing two healthy, easily produced voices singing with feeling and intelligence. A very valid alternative.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 16, 2019, 01:13:21 PM
Quote from: ritter on November 16, 2019, 02:19:22 AM
I tend to agree with Jo498's post above, and add that the Fourth is probably my favourite of all of Mahler's symphonies. Yes, it may be the odd man out, but it's oddities (mainly the subdued final lied movement) are strokes of genius IMHO.
Strange how we can perceive performances in different ways. Mme. Schwarzkopf (in the Klemperer recording) sounds to me not in the least childlike and innocent, but rather like an angry Hausfrau.  :D

Welcome to the forum, btw, dissily Mordentroge.  :)
Now that's a scary thought, Schwarzkopf as an angry Hausfrau. Myself I can't hear it in that recording, not even a hint of it. Subjectivity at work again.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 16, 2019, 01:38:54 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 22, 2019, 01:27:41 AM
The reason is because there is so much music that did not engage me at all upon first listen – let's take Mahler, at large, as an example – that I now count among my favorites. If I would have given up on Mahler so quickly my life would have lost a lot of richness, as he's now one of my very favorite composers.
During my early teenage years I was lucky enough to be exposed to Mahler via Bernstein and Walter's recordings. I suspect if I'd first encountered his symphonies and song cycles today I'd have been thoroughly turned off. I experience the majority of todays' performances as repressing the drama and often 'cosmological scale' of these works in what I take to be an attempt not to scare audiences. Others find Bernstein and Walter's et al far too theatrical, even hysterical.
In my misguided early teenage years I inherited my uncles high-end stereo system. A group of us rose to the challenge of listening to all of Mahler's symphonies in chronological order one after another. Took us an entire weekend but the experience has never left me. We also made the mistake of playing the entirety of Wagner's Ring Cycle over another weekend. I was a mess at the end of that little exercise as were a few others. I can't understand how live audiences will inflict the same discipline on themselves at Beirut.

As to first exposures to particular works not impressing one I have a long list of composers who repulsed me upon first listen but after repeated exposure have me enjoying them unreservedly. Messian, and Ligetti amongst them. On the other hand I've never been able to enjoy much of Bruckner or Sibelius's symphonies despite repeated attempts. This I cannot explain other than revealing I experience them as 'Much ado about nothing'.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 16, 2019, 01:41:47 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 16, 2019, 04:29:07 AM
Yes. ;D ;) I always feel like I'm sternly being reminded of not riding my bicycle on the pavement, listening to Schwarzkopf.
Well then, you should cease riding your bicycle on the pavement.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 16, 2019, 04:38:52 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 25, 2019, 01:46:20 AM
Conventional in what way? What other symphony do you know that starts anything like that? Agreed re: Berg. A beautiful piece.

What year were you born?  1870?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 16, 2019, 05:00:50 PM
Quote from: André on November 16, 2019, 05:17:51 AM
+1.

Placed in its proper historical context the 4th is indeed a very unconventional work, esp. given that it was labeled a symphony, coming a mere 15 years after Brahms' own 4th symphony, a work that for many represents the acme of the symphonic form.
'Acme of symphonic form'? Who writes these rules? Convention is one thing, musical necessity another.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on November 17, 2019, 02:53:42 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 16, 2019, 04:38:52 PM
What year were you born?  1870?
1995, actually.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 17, 2019, 06:38:55 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 17, 2019, 02:53:42 AM
1995, actually.  ;D

I guess I didn't follow your comment about "what other symphony starts that way [as Mahler 9]" which seemed like you were comparing symphonies to Brahms era and ignoring all that came after that.  Anyway, my point was stupid or could have been better worded.  Why wouldn't you consider Shosti 11 opening similar to Mahler 9 for example?  Gliere 3?  Haug 1 and 2?  I didn't really follow your reasoning for saying what other work starts like M9 unless you meant contemporaneously to M9.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on November 17, 2019, 08:34:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 17, 2019, 06:38:55 AM
I guess I didn't follow your comment about "what other symphony starts that way [as Mahler 9]" which seemed like you were comparing symphonies to Brahms era and ignoring all that came after that.  Anyway, my point was stupid or could have been better worded.  Why wouldn't you consider Shosti 11 opening similar to Mahler 9 for example?  Gliere 3?  Haug 1 and 2?  I didn't really follow your reasoning for saying what other work starts like M9 unless you meant contemporaneously to M9.
Yes, I meant contemporaneously to Mahler's 9th. Not contemporaneous to Brahms. And certainly not in terms of later music. Even in light of the music that came after, in what way is the opening to Mahler's 9th conventional? Just because that Shostakovich symphony might start out in a similar way (keeping in mind that Shostakovich was heavily influenced by Mahler, after all), that doesn't mean that Mahler's 9th is suddenly conventional.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on November 17, 2019, 09:32:41 AM
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on November 16, 2019, 01:38:54 PM
We also made the mistake of playing the entirety of Wagner's Ring Cycle over another weekend. I was a mess at the end of that little exercise as were a few others. I can't understand how live audiences will inflict the same discipline on themselves at Beirut.

Maybe you overdosed. The place is Bayreuth.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 17, 2019, 11:29:38 AM
Funnily enough at the first Ring performance some of the stage props (made in England) never arrived because they were mistakenly sent to Beirut instead. So Seigfried fought Fafner the dragon who had no neck section and it seemed like the Germanic hero was simply being cruel to a disabled reptile! True story.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on November 17, 2019, 03:19:13 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 17, 2019, 11:29:38 AM
Funnily enough at the first Ring performance some of the stage props (made in England) never arrived because they were mistakenly sent to Beirut instead. So Seigfried fought Fafner the dragon who had no neck section and it seemed like the Germanic hero was simply being cruel to a disabled reptile! True story.

:laugh: :laugh:

That's one of the funniest things I've ever read here. I sincerely hope that the missing dragon parts are still in a Lebanese museum somewhere...

... I wonder if they ever have mini Wagner festivals in Beirut. That would actually be a great idea.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 17, 2019, 03:56:11 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 17, 2019, 08:34:56 AM
Yes, I meant contemporaneously to Mahler's 9th. Not contemporaneous to Brahms. And certainly not in terms of later music. Even in light of the music that came after, in what way is the opening to Mahler's 9th conventional? Just because that Shostakovich symphony might start out in a similar way (keeping in mind that Shostakovich was heavily influenced by Mahler, after all), that doesn't mean that Mahler's 9th is suddenly conventional.

Thanks for that extra context.  Now I understand what I meant. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on November 17, 2019, 11:22:29 PM
This is probably beside the point but I don't think that the beginning of DSCH 11 is like Mahler 9 at all. It's somewhat similar to Mahler 1. And supposedly both depict dawn/daybreak, so that's even less surprising.
As it is impossible to listen to pieces that are 100 or 200 or more years old "fresh" like a contemporary would have heard them, one should not stress this point (strange, shocking, unconventional etc. for a contemporary) too much. But I don't think it is irrelevant and often helpful to get a better perspective on a piece.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 12, 2020, 10:53:47 AM
A good deal of Mahler on ClassicsToday. This one from me:


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQbLwMrXkAAo17D?format=jpg&name=small)
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/gattis-fine-concertgebouw-video-mahler/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/gattis-fine-concertgebouw-video-mahler/)
As with cocaine from a dodgy dealer, you never know what you get with Daniele Gatti:
An enormous high or a bum experience. Whereas my information on the former is based
on hearsay, the latter is based on repeat exposure, with an array of both...

This is Victor Carr Jr. on YNS's M8

(https://classicstoday-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Yannick-Mahler-8-100x100.jpg)
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/nezet-seguins-dehydrated-mahler-8th/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/nezet-seguins-dehydrated-mahler-8th/)

...and Hurwitz on Vanska's M4. (Which I reviewed for the Klassik-Heute (formerly the German sister-site of ClassicsToday),
wondering how David H. would feel about it, because he's slammed Vanska's Mahler so far and I found this one reall
rather good.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQas2izXsAA68s8?format=jpg&name=small)
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/vanskas-much-improved-mahler-4th/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/vanskas-much-improved-mahler-4th/)


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2020, 05:13:08 AM
I believe the first performance of the 8th had over 800 musicians.

Is there an extreme large scale recording?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 12, 2020, 05:30:04 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 12, 2020, 05:13:08 AM
I believe the first performance of the 8th had over 800 musicians.

Is there an extreme large scale recording?

According to the booklet for the Chailly/Concertgebouw recording Mahler had a chorus of 850 (this included 350 boys) and an orchestra of 170. There is no indication of how many took part in Chailly's recording.

Judging by the photo of Solti's recording session in Vienna (with the Chicago SO) he had considerably fewer. I am sure someone will no the answer to your question.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on March 12, 2020, 06:17:03 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 12, 2020, 05:13:08 AM
I believe the first performance of the 8th had over 800 musicians.

Is there an extreme large scale recording?

The Dudamel recording had over 1,000 performers. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrH9Kh2vOpo

I was in the front row for the performance about five feet from the vocalist.  She and her singing were so beautiful, I immediately fell in love with her and we are now facebook friends.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2020, 06:25:36 AM
Thanks for these responses. I've been listening to Boulez's 1975 London prom performance, which set me thinking.

When it was written, was there any precedent for anything on such a scale?

Unfortunately I don't have La Grange's books to see what he says about it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 12, 2020, 08:52:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 12, 2020, 06:25:36 AM
Thanks for these responses. I've been listening to Boulez's 1975 London prom performance, which set me thinking.

When it was written, was there any precedent for anything on such a scale?

Unfortunately I don't have La Grange's books to see what he says about it.

Berlioz employed very large forces for his Requiem, Te Deum and Funeral and Triumphal Symphony - the size varied depending on the venue and what was available. He performed other works with large forces in very large venues - would need to look them up. Apparently there was a tradition dating from the Revolutionary period for performing works with massive forces.

He was also inspired by hearing a concert in St Paul's Cathedral with a huge choir of children. In the 19th century Messiah was sometimes performed with a huge chorus.

I don't know if it was common in the Austro-German lands that Mahler knew.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2020, 10:29:52 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 12, 2020, 08:52:06 AM
Berlioz employed very large forces for his Requiem, Te Deum and Funeral and Triumphal Symphony - the size varied depending on the venue and what was available. He performed other works with large forces in very large venues - would need to look them up. Apparently there was a tradition dating from the Revolutionary period for performing works with massive forces.

He was also inspired by hearing a concert in St Paul's Cathedral with a huge choir of children. In the 19th century Messiah was sometimes performed with a huge chorus.

I don't know if it was common in the Austro-German lands that Mahler knew.

Interesting. I'm going to try to listen to Dudamel. Having extremely large forces must make quite a difference to the feel of the music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on March 21, 2020, 06:45:04 AM

A friend sent me this (very detailed) description of the 1920 Mahler Festival. It is really worth a reading. It was a huge event. Attendees included Schönberg, Webern, Alma Mahler, Nadia Boulanger, Carl Nielsen, Johan Alvorsen, Alfredo Casella, Egon Wellesz, Adolf Busch, Artur Schnabel, Florent Schmitt, Cyril Scott, Adrian Boult, Klemperer, Hermann Abendroth and many renowned Dutch composers (Dopper, Zweers, Diepenbrock, Wagenaar, Röntgen, etc.)

There is a long description by composer Egon Wellesz that gives fascinating insights into the event. Another interesting article is the one at the end, which traces the lineage between Nadia Boulanger (close friend of Mengelberg), who brought back Mahler scores to Paris, and Aaron Copland, who studied her Mahler scores when studying under Boulanger, then to Bernstein, who discovered Mahler through the advocacy of Copland.

Quote

May 1920 : Mahler Festival in Amsterdam.

First conductor, all the concerts : Willem Mengelberg ; second conductor, rehearsals : Cornelis Dopper.
Soloists
Aaltje Noordewier-Reddingius (soprano) . Adolf Busch (violin) .
Alexander Schmuller (violin) .
Alfredo Casella (piano) .
Carl Flesch (violin) .
Cornelis Dopper (harmonium) .
Cyril Scott (piano) .
Dirk Speets (first trumpet, « Concertgebouw » Orchestra) .
Elise Menage Challa (soprano) .
Gertrude Förstel (soprano) .
Gerard von Brucken Fock (piano) .
Haagmans (trombone, tenor horn, « Concertgebouw » Orchestra) . Hans Duhan (baritone) .
Ilona Durigo (alto) .
Jacques Urlus (tenor) .
                     
Joseph Groenen (baritone) .
Judith Bokor (cello) .
Leonid Kreutzer (piano) .
Louis Robert (organ) .
Louis Zimmermann (violinist, « Concertgebouw » Orchestra) . Marix Loevensohn (cellist, « Concertgebouw » Orchestra) . Meta Reidel (alto) .
Moritz Loevensohn (cello) .
Oscar Back (violin) .
Sarah Charles Cahier (alto) . Sang at the creation of « Das Lied von der Erde » in 1911. Sigrid Hoffmann-Onegin (alto) .
Thomas Denijs (bass) .
Willem Andriessen (piano) .
Ensembles
: Karel Hoffmann (1st violin) , Josef Suk (2nd violin) , Jeří Herold (viola) , Ladislav Zelenka
: Herman Leydensdorff (1st violin) , Bram Mendes (2nd violin) , Corf Kint (viola) , Thomas Canivez
« Apollo » Choir. Director : Frederic Roeske. « Toonkunst » Choir.
« Kunst na Arbeid » Male Choir.
               Bohemian String Quartet
(cello) .
  Dutch String Quartet
(cello) .
   
  « Volkszang » Boys Choir. Director : Herman Johannes den Hertog. « Madrigaal Vereniging » .

...

During the 15 days of the « Mahler Feest » in May 1920, orchestra and conductor perform the 9 completed
Symphonies, « Das klagende Lied » , « Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen » , « Kindertotenlieder » , « Das Lied von der
Erde » and the 5 « Rückert-Lieder » .

Present are Alma Mahler (who is staying on the « Museumplein » with a noble lady) and Arnold Schœnberg, another
of Mengelberg's « protégés » .

Alma noted :

« Arrival in Amsterdam ... port ... ships' masts ... rigging ... hustle and bustle ... chilly, overcast ... in a nutshell, Holland. Evening, Mahler's Second in an unsurpassed performance. »

........

«  Just as Bayreuth has become the model and the standard for all performances of Wagner's works, Amsterdam has
been made the spiritual centre of Mahler's art. »
These are the words of its organiser, Doctor Rudolf Mengelberg, a distant cousin of the conductor's. Amsterdam would
become the foremost Mahler city.
         
The festival ended with the Symphony No. 8. The Ninth was not performed. At the time, Symphony No. 9 was still seen
as Mahler's swan-song (sketches for the incomplete Symphony No. 10 were not published until 1923) , and was played
on the anniversary of Mahler's death on May 15 with the earnest request that the audience withhold their applause
at the end of the concert in memory of the composer.
Afterwards, the Festival was characterized as the « Peace Conference of Amsterdam » because the participants who
came from so many different countries found each other in a sharing a universal feeling.
 
..

In May 1920, the 1st ever Mahler Festival was held in Amsterdam under the conductor Willem Mengelberg. The Viennese composer Egon Wellesz wrote a detailed report on the events in two separate articles for the Neue Freie Presse :

17 May 1920 : « Neue Freie Presse » , Doctor Egon Wellesz: ...

It's a degree of recognition that no other composer could possibly expect. In the coming days, here in Amsterdam, we
shall hear the complete works of Gustav Mahler. A sequence of events and coincidences has meant that the combination of a culture-mad citizenry, along with conductor Willem Mengelberg have established Amsterdam as a citadel where his Symphonies are cultivated as nowhere else. Thus, a circle is completed that started with genius, inflamed a conductor to be the prophet of new, never-heard-before beauty, a new greatness and now having inspired a large community, they in devoted gratitude, return to their provider in order to honour him.

Willem Mengelberg has been conductor of the « Concertgebouw » Orchestra in Amsterdam for 25 years - he has
brought it to a standard that could never have been imagined. One has no feeling of any separation between
musicians and conductor ; rather together, they form a higher-unity that grows closer in the course of performance.
This is an understanding that can only develop over a period of decades of mutual hard work and discipline. The best
is merely just good enough. This singleness of purpose between conductor and Orchestra is even carried over to the
public who, over the years, have come to understand the works of Mahler as nowhere else - not even in Vienna itself.
It was here, in Amsterdam, that Mahler enjoyed his 1st, unqualified success ; and it was from here that he returned
home with new inspiration and a desire to carry-out new work. It was here that, in 1903, he conducted his 1st and
3rd, in 1904 ; his 2nd and 4th, in 1906 ; his 5th and 7th, in 1909. And if one takes in the number of performances
conducted by Mengelberg which were taking place around the same time as those conducted by the controversial
Mahler, then once can come to appreciate how it is that the Chorus and the Orchestra have become the composer's
own instruments of choice : Amsterdam is to the cultivation and preservation of Mahler's music what Bayreuth, in its
more glorious years, was to Wagner.

Isn't it odd that, as a Viennese, one has to travel to Amsterdam to celebrate Mahler's 60th birthday ? Vienna, which is
so besotted with both the arts and artists, simply ignored this event. And it is here in dour but appreciative
Amsterdam, that the spirit of Mahler thrives. Everyone here appears to have known him, to have adored and valued
him. His eccentricities were met with the healthy respect one brings to such personalities - personalities in which such
things are both anticipated and appreciated. The spirit that dwells in his Symphonies, the mystic and the religious are
deeply felt. The reception here has been open for the broadest arc of his creativity ; the significance of the most
minute detail followed him here. One maintained in this city, without betraying oneself or one's artistic opinions, a
respectful distance to the artist.

Mengelberg was meant to have received a particular recognition from his friends in Amsterdam ; instead of personal
recognition, he requested that Amsterdam be the city where a Mahler Festival could be held to which people from all
over the world would come in order the hear all of Mahler's work in Mengelberg's definitive interpretation. The still
unclear (political) relationships which continue to plague our world today did not seem to represent the slightest
hindrance to this goal. The Festival committee took-up the challenge with unprecedented generosity. It was decided to
make those participants from beyond the Dutch borders Holland's special guests (they covered the arrangements for
travel, accommodation and all expenses) only because of this act of generosity was it possible for us Viennese to
attend.

The journey started in a happy mood for our small group of fellow-travellers in the comfortable, not too crowded carriages of the « Holland Express » .We crossed all borders without difficulties and arrived without any delays in Amsterdam.We were met by members of the Festival committee who took charge of our luggage and brought us all
to our respective quarters : some in hotels and some in private accommodation. The tickets to all of the events were
already waiting for us in our quarters, along with the programme. Everything worked perfectly : nothing was forgotten
- every need, no matter how trivial was met. The Viennese were met with particular generosity and courtesy. The locals
are well-aware of the deprivations and difficulties we still suffer in our homeland and have tried their best to make us
as comfortable as possible, if only to make their sympathy and understanding clear to us, that even abroad, we are
united by a shared, and valued culture. It was in this context that the Viennese were accorded the principal addresses
in the opening events.

« Hofrat » (Imperial Court Council ; a uniquely Austrian title) Guido Adler opened the events with a warmly
appreciative speech in Mahler's memory that touched on the artist and the man. He spoke of their common home and
their youthful years together along with their very 1st departure into the wide world. He spoke about the roots of
Mahler's creativity and its relationship with the nature of the folk-song, march rhythms and (militaristic) signal calls
that characterize his works. He recalled both the military and the country-folk poetry that would develop into his «
Wunderhornlieder » .

Paul Stefan gave a lively speech without notes about Mahler, the Theatre director. He sketched-out in short sections
what Mahler had contributed to the stage-craft of Opera and how he managed to force the visual presentation to ever
more fantastic and enchanting images - he outlined everything that he achieved in order to reach never imagined
experiences. Both speeches were received with the greatest of sympathy. The 3rd speech was delivered by the Italian
Alfredo Casella who has also spent a good deal of time in France. His speech was a profound declaration for a new,
international life of the artistic and intellectual spirit. He accentuated how for the 1st time since the end of the War,
people from all countries had come together where the concepts of friend, foe and neutral no longer existed - such
was the spirit of Mahler that had been able to create this unity. He concluded with something we all felt :
« Art has always existed apart from worldly matters. It will no longer be debased or exalted as a means of
propaganda that supports or defiles different peoples. Humanity now unites those who previously had called each other
enemies. To the ruthlessness of war-fare that had previously broken all spiritual bonds and after the flood of hate and distrust had now appeared the dove of peace. »

One arrives in the auditorium of the « Concertgebouw » for the very 1st Festival event. The podium is covered with
wreaths of red azaleas and laurel trees have been placed behind the seating for the Chorus that surrounds the
Orchestra. At the very front is a bust of Mahler. Mengelberg walks-out to applause that last many minutes, followed by
a vacuum-like silence. He makes a gesture and the Chorus rises without a sound. A sharp wrap of the baton and we
hear the opening of « Das Klagende Lied » .

A rehearsal with Mengelberg : the hall is divided from the stage by a large curtain - where, normally, the Chorus are
sat, we find musicians and conductors from everywhere in the world, whom Mengelberg has specially invited to observe
him at work. It is only here since Mahler's own lifetime that it is possible to experience what a rehearsal of one of
his works should be. External perfection is demanded and any passage that even slightly sounds shoddy is repeated.
After the general rehearsal, Mengelberg meets the strings the following day to rehearse a particular figure in the 1st
achieves the intensity of desired expression. There was never a loud or discourteous word. The Orchestra knows that
everything he demands is fully-justified and yields without question to his will.

Mengelberg's significance in this city is felt in the manner by which all of Amsterdam is caught-up in the spirit of the
Festival. The music shops all offer scores of Mahler Symphonies in their displays, and the book-stores all offer copies of
a publication in honour of Mengelberg, meant as a permanent manifestation of what he has achieved. The original
consists in its entirety of 7 volumes of testimonies (including a volume of drawings) by musicians and important
personalities of his time. It was presented to him in special chest designed by (Jan) Toorop, which now holds pride of
place in his home, itself a tiny museum filled with paintings, wood-cuttings and stained glass. One notes that the
influence of this man extends well beyond his own discipline as conductor. His mere presence has had a galvanizing
and determining effect on all the local arts. He is an educator in the highest-meaning of the word ; both servant to
the work and its creative interpreter. He has taken on a responsibility, the successful execution of which was doubted
by many. Nevertheless, he seems to have managed it and without fatigue. As proof, on every 2nd day from the 6th to
the 21st of May, he will perform a work of Mahler. It is this work of love and indeed piety with which he will build
his most lasting monument.


31 May 1920 : « Neue Freie Presse » , Doctor Egon Wellesz:

This is the very 1st time that one has the opportunity of becoming acquainted with the complete works of Mahler. It
is the most difficult of all cycles to pull-off. Only a very few will last the course. All weakness will be doubly felt, all
the limits of talent will be unforgivably apparent. So much of devoted relevance has been written already throughout
this journey that I feel that I can save myself the words needed to express thoughts on each individual work, by
relating instead the totality of the experience.

One thing that must be 1st stated is that Mahler's works come into sharper relief through their cyclic performance. One work simply prepares us for the next without one overshadowing the other. One experiences an upward journey from the 1st piece to his 9th Symphony and there is not one work that one would feel did not belong in its rightful place.What both Mengelberg and his Orchestra have accomplished in these last days borders on the incomprehensible.

One of Germany's leading conductors said to me after a performance, that he would rather give-up altogether after
experiencing such accomplishment. But the musicians are also aware of their unique central role, amongst the Viennese
Arnold Schœnberg, who attended each and every rehearsal. And there were other representatives from America, Sweden, Norway, Germany and Italy. The precision of the bowing under the Concert-Master Zimmerman and the warmth of sound were astonishing. The moment Mengelberg hears the slightest discrepancy, he responds with « Systematic ! »
which means « not good » . At this point, he starts to rehearse without mercy each and every individual tone and
every point within the phrasing. « System » is the word that encapsulates his method with the Orchestra over the last
25 years. In reality, « System » is simply a means of achieving exactness in execution, not losing one's head and to
maintain a consistent pulse and tempo. For our ears, we find the oboes sound very strange. They have a strong nasal
sound and are weaker in dynamic than our Viennese instruments. The flutes, on the other hand, are dignified and full-
sounding ; trumpets and trombones are excellent. Another extraordinary brass player is the bass-tuba, who wears gloves in order that his fingers not have direct contact with the keys of his instrument.

Mengelberg's conducting gestures are precise. He beats sharply and energetically with the right-hand. His left, often
balled in a fist, is used for conveying expression and indicating entrances. He reaches climaxes by swinging his entire,
rather small body about before this hot-head rises above proceedings. He has an agreeable manner of dealing with his
Orchestra which comes from many years working in mutual trust and understanding with the same people.
Occasionally, the atmosphere in rehearsals seems to balance on a knife-edge ; at this point, he tells a joke and rescues
the situation. He rehearses long stretches and, only afterwards, does he tell the Orchestra what he wishes to change.
He not only explains the technical, he tells the Orchestra what the individual intentions of the composer were. When
he speaks with his sonorous, resonant voice, nobody else makes a sound.

One senses an inner-contact, and it is in this manner that he can achieve the best results from his players - just as a virtuoso gets the best out of his instrument. They tune precisely and co-operate through each rehearsal of a transitional passage. Nobody thinks of marking during rehearsal - Mengelberg demands full sound at all times and the highest-degree of tension and concentration. One of the typical rehearsal programmes went along the following lines :
From 9h00 until 13h00, he rehearses the 4th and 5th Symphonies. In the evening, there are rehearsals of the 9th and
5th from 20h00 to 22h00. At 22h00, he rehearses the Chorus for the 8th Symphony while the 2nd Concert-Master
rehearsed the « Adagietto » from the 5th. He makes sure that the musicians are rested during their breaks. They're
given milky coffee and an endless supply of cheese sandwiches. After rehearsals, Mengelberg returns home and studies
the scores for the next day's rehearsals until deep in the night.

Yet, there is nothing that is taken for granted on his part. He gets-up in the morning, refreshed and must re-establish
his authority from zero - he betrays no sense of entitlement by replacing his attempts to achieve expression by mere
routine. For us who have come to observe, it's a revelation the way he can create tension without snapping and elicit
emotion without losing control. These Festival performances are unique. They have never been matched in the devotion
shown by those giving the performances or those attending them. Any attempt at repeating such a venture will be
doomed to failure - if there is a repetition of such an undertaking, it would demand an entirely different approach.

Itis the 1st time that we have the entirety of Mahler's work separated from its creator and finally launched into the
wider world. Mahler no longer belongs just to Vienna, to Austria or to Europe, but has now been handed-over to the
entire world. For example : this winter, the 8th Symphony will be performed in New York, and Mengelberg will continue
to present Mahler's works in various other American cities. This elementary effect of Mahler's music on the masses of
music-lovers must come as a surprise to those who had admired him from the very beginning. But that his day of
musical resurrection would be so soon - well none of us could ever have anticipated it.

Amsterdam's Mahler Festival is set chronologically with performances of his Symphonies and orchestral songs and can
be heard over 9 evenings' of performances to which may be added 4 public rehearsals and 5 performances of
international, contemporary chamber-music. The performances start in Amsterdam at 19h30 and carry-on until 22h30
or even 23h00. In the 1st concert on the 6th of May, we heard « Das Klagende Lied » , « Lieder eines fahrenden
Gesellen » and the 1st Symphony. One could not have heard a more complete version of « Das Klagende Lied » even
under Mahler himself. This work of exuberant youthful talent, orchestrated by the experienced composer, was offered to
devastating effect. Just as surprising in its impression, was the effect of the last movement of the 1st Symphony, which
many, including myself, regarded until the present performance as one of his weakest works. Mengelberg knew how to
draw the pieces together in order to create an entirely different picture.

The next day brought us the lectures about Mahler that we have already reported as well as a general rehearsal of
the 2nd Symphony. This was followed, the next day, with a performance that will never be forgotten by those who
were present and able to appreciate the mystery and quietness of the Chorus' entrance : « Arisen - yes ! Arisen ! »
after the call in the horns and the trumpets. Nor can we forget the performance of « Urlicht » or the powerful surge
of the final when Mengelberg extracted the final reserves of both Chorus and Orchestra.

The performance of the 3rd Symphony, on Monday the 10th of May, resulted in a particular celebration for Mengelberg.
The Prince Consort Heinrich handed-over both laurel and floral wreaths and was introduced to both visiting and local
music-lovers, all of whom had made the effort to honour the life and work of Gustav Mahler. The 4th Festival concert,
on Wednesday the 12th of May, brought us the 4th and 5th Symphonies. The latter, in Holland as in Vienna, one of the
most seldom performed. Yet, under Mengelberg's direction, it left an exceptional and lasting impression. The 4th, on the
other hand, was met as more of a « succès d'estime » . The combination of both Symphonies in a single evening's
performance was a challenge to any public while, at the same time, offering a unique opportunity of comparing the 2
works. It is apparent that, in the 4th symphony, Mahler can be heard departing from the style of his earliest works as
he begins to become more polyphonic. Within the 5th symphony, this principal has already developed masterly.

The following day was completely free and brought both performers and listeners a well-needed period of respite. In
the afternoon, we set-out togehter to view an Indian steamship which offered an opportunity of viewing the local
harbour in the course of its day-to-day activities as we watched the arrival of freighters, no doubt returning from the
colonies in order to unload their goods. Everything appeared to be a part of a greater whole and offered the
impression of a population that semed to have survived the scorched earth of recent years and now, with double
energy, was bringing different nations together with a broader cultural mission.

One anticipated the performance of the 6th Symphony with a certain anxiousness. This work is also less well-known in
Amsterdam than its predecessors and « Das Lied von der Erde » . And, again, we experienced a triumph. If I recall the
1st performance of this work in Vienna under Mahler, I sense that, here, the percussion and brass are softer - indeed,
almost muted in comparison. The last movement, which must be one of the greatest and most plastic of any within
Mahler's Symphonies, was particularly rewarding under Mengelberg's direction. He was able to control the steady
development to the climax by unyielding control and instrumental balance, never arriving too soon, and splendidly
unravelling the dense knot of musical subjects.

The 7th Symphony has a very special place for Mengelberg as he owns Mahler's manuscript and sees it very much as
« his » Symphony. However, there are many inward connections that give this Symphony its own Amsterdam
attachment. Mahler's 1st « Nachtmusik » was inspired by Rembrandt's « Night-Watchman » . Mengelberg explained to
the Orchestra that the music is not to be understood by the painting itself, but in the sequence of visions that
viewing the picture unleashed in Mahler : a nightly round ; moonlight on the rooftops of the city ; lovers whispering ;
the distant sounds of a herdsman's bells. Mengelberg explained the meaning of the work - the technical aspects have
long been settled. 2 weeks before the performance, he handed-over to his trusted deputy Dopper both the strings and
brass so that could be rehearsed separately and prepared to the point that Mengelberg needed only to file away a
few rough edges, thus, adding wings to the work's spirit.

Following the performance of the 7th, the chronological sequence of works was disrupted in order to accommodate the
technical requirements demanded of the 8th Symphony. There followed, therefore, the most transfigured of Mahler's
works : « Das Lied von der Erde » and the 9th Symphony, the performance of which fell on the day commemorating
Mahler's death. It is not possible to express in words the reverence that was demonstrated by this performance, the
mystical transformation of the musicians. With the sound of the last note resonating in the hall, there followed only
silence, which was maintained as we departed from the auditorium.

The monumental high-point of the Festival was the grandiose performance of the 8th symphony. The 1st violins were
led by Carl Flesch ; the violas by Adolf Busch. The 1st soprano was as ever Mrs. Gerturd Förstel ; 2nd soprano was Mrs.
Noordewter-Reddingtus ; the altos were Mrs. Cahier and Mrs. Burigo ; the tenor, Mister Urlis. At the piano sat Leonid
Kreutzer. Again, there were endless rehearsals that went on until deepest night, and involved both Chorus and
Orchestra. These were followed by individual rehearsals with the soloists, with the harps and with the piano. All stood
in the grip of the transcendental, indefatigable power of Mengelberg and everyone marvelled and allowed him to do
with them as he wished.

In addition to the fullness of the Symphonic performances were added 5 chamber performances on the free-days in-
between. These took place under the direction of Professor Alexander Schmullers and in organization with the pianists
Lamond, Kreutzer, Schnabel, Mrs. Stokowski and Moritz Löwensohn, the marvellous cellist. Together, they presented a
series of representative contemporary chamber-music recitals consisting of works by, amongst many others, the Italian
composer Casella, the Frenchman Florent Schmitt, and an important vocal work by Artur Schnabel.

An additional 2 lectures were offered to bring the work and person of Gustav Mahler closer to the public. Felix Salten
gave us a graphic depiction of the atmosphere that Mahler's work elicited and the role that was played by both his
person and the city of Vienna ; Richard Specht, the trusted biographer of Mahler, spoke of the artist and the triumphs
of his vision, which Mengelberg has so visibly transmitted to us all in recent days. It has been agreed that these
lectures will be kept as a perpetual memorial to this Festival in Amsterdam and are to be published.

There is something special about the performance of works in the context of a Festival.While we experienced these
days, we already sensed the memory of earlier performances slipping away, only to remain as something we cannot
describe. Yet, despite this, something permanent survives that will bind all of us together as we go our separate ways
throughout the world.

That this event could take place at all is thanks to the committee led by his Excellence Köell, Mister K. van Rees and
Mister Dudok van Heel. For the production and presentation of the programme along with the writing of the
accompanying notes, we thank Mister Rudolf Mengelberg, who also organised the guest-lists and events. For the
administration of the Festival, we thank Mister Benkers van Ogtrop and Mister Frejer along with Mister de Marez
Oyens.

For us, Viennese, this was not only an enormous gain artistically, but also a display of great humanity. One was again
surrounded by friendship and love. The generosity of our hosts was such that we could again believe in the words (of
  Schiller, set by Beethoven in his 9th Symphony): « Alle Menschen werden Brüder, wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt. » The
shared goal of something artistic brought us out of, and beyond ourselves, and created an atmosphere of artistic and
profound seriousness. That this could happen, we are indebted to the man who is Mengelberg and his circle of
supporters and friends.

May the spirit of goodness that came from this place continue to support all that is beautiful so that people are, once
again, bound together in everlasting friendship.


................

BEHIND GUSTAV MAHLER'S ANNIVERSARIES

Orchestras don't usually need special reasons to highlight the music of the late-Romantic Austrian composer Gustav
Mahler. His titanic Symphonies and delicate Songs have shaped musical life in the 20th and 21st Centuries, and they
have a secure place on orchestral programmes around the world. But anniversary celebrations like the one in Amsterdam in 2020, where several orchestras will perform Mahler's works over the course of 2 weeks, offer special glimpses into Mahler's musical after-life and into the ideas and attitudes of those who celebrate his legacy.

Next year's Festival [2020] actually marks the 100th Anniversary of an important starting point in my book, « Aaron Copland and the American Legacy of Gustav Mahler » . In 1920, in Amsterdam, the Dutch conductor Willem Mengelberg presided over the first significant festival of Mahler's music, and it took place in a climate of international cooperation after the devastation of World War I. Over the course of 2 weeks, Mengelberg, who had been Mahler's friend and colleague, his own 25 years in charge of the « Concertgebouw » Orchestra by conducting most of Mahler's works. 40 years later, another momentous Mahler Festival took place, this time in New York City.

As part of it, Leonard Bernstein went on national television with the New York Philharmonic to extol Mahler's music. As Bernstein pointed out, that year, 1960, actually marked 2 anniversaries : one was the Centenary of Mahler's birth, and the second was the 50th anniversary of Mahler's first season as music-director of the same orchestra. Bernstein would go on to make Mahler's music a central part of his own musical and personal identity, and it is fitting that Mahler featured in last year's celebrations of Bernstein's own Centenary. At a New York Philharmonic- sponsored event in Lincoln Center dubbed « Bernstein's Mahler Marathon » in 2018, audiences listened all day to Bernstein's recordings of Mahler's Symphonies.

When it comes to assessing the musical after-life of a composer like Mahler, why are anniversary festivals like the ones
in Amsterdam in 1920, or New York in 1960, so important ? For one, these big public events could well have a lasting
effect on a composer's stature, placing that figure into the spotlight and inviting new audiences into the fold. They
also offer historians an opportunity to take the temperature of critical (and sometimes even public) opinion at a
particular moment, and they serve as focal points for investigating how a composer's legacy can reflect the broader
priorities of musical communities.

But for the story I tell in « Aaron Copland and the American Legacy of Gustav Mahler » , these festivals do even
more : they serve as part of a larger story of how ideas about music flow, both in public and private realms, over
time. And it's what happens behind the scenes of these events (and how they're connected) that especially fascinates
me.

One of the attendees of the 1920 Mahler Festival was Nadia Boulanger. She would become a towering figure in 20th Century music, especially as a performer and educator. And she was at the Festival to celebrate not Mahler, toward whose heavy Austro-German music she was ambivalent, but rather Mengelberg, her friend. And Mahler's music moved her enough that she wrote a positive review of it in the periodical « Le Monde musical » .

Boulanger was also intrigued enough to bring copies of Mahler's scores home with her to Paris - a decision that
turned out to have a lasting effect on Mahler's reception. The year after the 1920 Festival, the young composer Aaron
Copland traveled to France, where he would become Boulanger's composition student. In her Paris studio, at her
direction, he studied the very same Mahler scores Boulanger brought back from Amsterdam. It was there that he
developed a deep connection to Mahler's music.

One reason this detail is so significant is that, without Copland, Leonard Bernstein's involvement with Mahler's music
would look quite different. Correspondence reveals that as early as 1940, Copland pointed Bernstein toward Mahler's
music. Bernstein was about the same age Copland was when Copland first discovered Mahler. It is no coincidence that
later, in lectures at the 1960 Mahler Festival, Bernstein borrowed Copland's own insights about Mahler, using them to
support the larger vision he presented for 20th Century music.

The consequences on Mahler's reception of Boulanger's presence at Mengelberg' 1920 Festival, then, were profound.
Through Copland, she unintentionally set the stage for Bernstein's own highly-visible Mahler advocacy. So, if you're lucky enough to attend the 2020 Amsterdam Mahler Festival, you could commemorate the 1920 Festival's significance by
doing what Nadia Boulanger did exactly 100 years earlier : pick-up some copies of Mahler's Symphonies and bring
them home with you.


It is worth noting that the centenary of this momentous Mahler festival is in 2 months (May 2020).

Concerts and celebrations are scheduled, but will they ever take place ?


https://mahlerfoundation.org/en/mahler/plaatsen/netherlands/amsterdam/mahler-festival-amsterdam-2020 (https://mahlerfoundation.org/en/mahler/plaatsen/netherlands/amsterdam/mahler-festival-amsterdam-2020)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 21, 2020, 02:59:13 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 12, 2020, 06:25:36 AM
Thanks for these responses. I've been listening to Boulez's 1975 London prom performance, which set me thinking.

When it was written, was there any precedent for anything on such a scale?

Unfortunately I don't have La Grange's books to see what he says about it.

As Biffo mentions, there was some precedent for using massed forces in various contexts, especially with choral-orchestral works. Musically, Mahler was inspired by Bach's motets and the St. Matthew Passion, which use divided antiphonal choirs.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on March 21, 2020, 03:04:33 PM
Great to see you back here on GMG, Mahlerian It's been a while. Hope you are doing fine.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on March 21, 2020, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: ritter on March 21, 2020, 03:04:33 PM
Great to see you back here on GMG, Mahlerian It's been a while. Hope you are doing fine.

Thanks, just really busy finishing up my master's degree, although now I'm doing it while stuck at home.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 06:46:36 AM
Thoughts on Bernard Haitink's recordings of Mahler with the Royal Concertgebouw...? Are there highlights of the cycle that are worth seeking out over others? I know the 9th is supposed to be good, but I've not heard it. I really love the few Haitink Mahler recordings I have: the song cycles, including Das Lied von der Erde. The Concertgebouw sounds excellent...!

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 08, 2020, 07:19:07 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 06:46:36 AM
Thoughts on Bernard Haitink's recordings of Mahler with the Royal Concertgebouw...? Are there highlights of the cycle that are worth seeking out over others? I know the 9th is supposed to be good, but I've not heard it. I really love the few Haitink Mahler recordings I have: the song cycles, including Das Lied von der Erde. The Concertgebouw sounds excellent...!

I bought Symphonies 1 - 4 back in LP days and they were my standby for many years. I still have great affection for them. I know Haitink's Concertgebouw recordings of the middle symphonies less well - the 8th hasn't had very good reviews down the the years. No 9 and Das Lied von der Erde are very fine indeed. When the 9th was first released it was described as the 'perfect Mahler 9' - forgotten by who, possibly Deryck Cooke.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 08, 2020, 07:25:55 AM
Haitink's RCOA versions of nos 5, 7 (two of them) and 9 are magnificent. I also happen to appreciate his sobriety and perfect pacing in nos 2, 3 and 8. The latter needs to be played at a higher volume level, otherwise it sounds distant and dull. In the end, it the orchestra's show, not the conductor's, and it satisfies me more than most other cycles.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 07:51:59 AM
Thanks for your thoughts, André and Biffo. He recorded much of the cycle (if not all of it...?) with the Berlin Philharmonic as well, and it looks like some duplicates with the RCO (I see two Mahler 4ths with different singers, same orchestra). I think what I'm most interested are the '60s recordings, but I'm curious as well to see if there is any love for the BPO Haitink records?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 08, 2020, 07:58:48 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 07:51:59 AM
Thanks for your thoughts, André and Biffo. He recorded much of the cycle (if not all of it...?) with the Berlin Philharmonic as well, and it looks like some duplicates with the RCO (I see two Mahler 4ths with different singers, same orchestra). I think what I'm most interested are the '60s recordings, but I'm curious as well to see if there is any love for the BPO Haitink records?

I have Nos 1 & 5 with the Berlin Philharmonic but don't rate them very highly, greatly prefer him in No 1 with the Concertgebouw. I also have him with the Dresden Staatskapelle in No 2 - a bit of a mixed bag, he seems to be trying too hard to rethink the work though the Finale is shattering.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 08:12:42 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 08, 2020, 07:58:48 AM
I have Nos 1 & 5 with the Berlin Philharmonic but don't rate them very highly, greatly prefer him in No 1 with the Concertgebouw. I also have him with the Dresden Staatskapelle in No 2 - a bit of a mixed bag, he seems to be trying too hard to rethink the work though the Finale is shattering.

Interesting, thanks. Am I alone in thinking that the Berlin Philharmonic is not the greatest Mahler orchestra in the world? Outside of a couple great recordings of the 9th (Barbirolli and Karajan live) I have not been terribly impressed with any BPO Mahler. They are a damn fine orchestra, surely. I just seem to usually prefer the Concertgebouw, the VPO, or even the New York Philharmonic when it comes to Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: André on April 08, 2020, 07:25:55 AM
Haitink's RCOA versions of nos 5, 7 (two of them) and 9 are magnificent. I also happen to appreciate his sobriety and perfect pacing in nos 2, 3 and 8. The latter needs to be played at a higher volume level, otherwise it sounds distant and dull. In the end, it the orchestra's show, not the conductor's, and it satisfies me more than most other cycles.

I'll give his 8th another chance. Thanks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 08, 2020, 10:20:08 AM
Andre, you were wondering about the 2020 Amsterdam Mahler Festival.

It has been cancelled due to the pandemic and social distancing.

People had been working on this for two years, organising things, and it is all gone. Imagine how that must feel...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 08, 2020, 10:26:12 AM
About Haitink Mahler recordings.

Somehow the BPO recordings get little love, but I have 6 and 7 and like them fine (having to admit though that I have a hard time taking 'listening to Mahler on a home system' 100 % seriously. The music is a theatrical experience to me.)

I believe Haitink performed the Sixth with the Berliner Ph at a BBC Promenade concert in the late nineties, too. Now that performance was unforgettable. Just as a live performance with the London Philharmonic of the Seventh around 1992.

His Concertgebouw recordings are obviously great (best of which perhaps the Lied), a lot of people prefer the Xmas Matinee performances, and maybe you see where this is going. A man as repressed as Haitink did his best work in the concert hall and we really need a box with radio recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 08, 2020, 12:41:49 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 06:46:36 AM
Thoughts on Bernard Haitink's recordings of Mahler with the Royal Concertgebouw...? Are there highlights of the cycle that are worth seeking out over others? I know the 9th is supposed to be good, but I've not heard it. I really love the few Haitink Mahler recordings I have: the song cycles, including Das Lied von der Erde. The Concertgebouw sounds excellent...!

I like that version of Das Lied as well. Some people have problems with the extremely dry acoustic, but I'm also fond of this recording, and the aforementioned acoustic means that a lot of the details are brought out:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61UDd-Smv9L.jpg)

Funny story about that Ninth. My undergrad school's library had a copy, but I was never able to listen to it, because the CD was damaged! Maybe that's why I never returned to that particular recording.


I heard the Second Symphony under Haitink at Tanglewood over a decade ago. I remember that being a fantastic experience, too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 08, 2020, 03:15:57 PM
I'm listening to the Haitink Mahler 8 again. So far, I think, I'm enjoying it more than the last time. The sound is a little recessed which doesn't do the massive forces required of the work any favors. But the soloists are incredible, including Heather Harper and Hermann Prey. We'll see how I feel by the end of the disc, but I don't think it's as bad as people give it credit for.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 09, 2020, 11:09:06 PM
Haitink's well-publicised lack of interest in nr 8 cannot have helped in the reputation of his recordings of said work.

His Xmas matinee recording of the piece is IMHO terrific, except of course for Gwyneth Jones' infamous glitch in the last minute of the piece.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 10, 2020, 04:31:47 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 09, 2020, 11:09:06 PM
Haitink's well-publicised lack of interest in nr 8 cannot have helped in the reputation of his recordings of said work.

His Xmas matinee recording of the piece is IMHO terrific, except of course for Gwyneth Jones' infamous glitch in the last minute of the piece.

This being the case, we have only the excellent playing of the orchestra, and the great singing to thank, as André said: "it's the orchestra's show". Somehow, his lack of interest in the work was not enough to completely stifle the music-making, because in the end I really enjoyed it. I finally had that "lightbulb" moment with Mahler's 8th where I realized what great music it is.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 10, 2020, 11:13:47 PM
No, no, you don't get a good Eighth by just letting the orchestra do its work.

It's more complicated than that. In the moment Haitink used to get into it, but in his typical fashion he used to say he didn't really like performing the Eighth. That kind of puts a damper on it.

Overall Haitink has been pretty vocal about things he didn't like in his typical 'letting steam off afterwards' fashion. His bad English (after living in England for decades) did not help either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 02:22:17 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 10, 2020, 11:13:47 PM
No, no, you don't get a good Eighth by just letting the orchestra do its work.

It's more complicated than that. In the moment Haitink used to get into it, but in his typical fashion he used to say he didn't really like performing the Eighth. That kind of puts a damper on it.

Overall Haitink has been pretty vocal about things he didn't like in his typical 'letting steam off afterwards' fashion. His bad English (after living in England for decades) did not help either.

Ah, OK. You know a lot more about Haitink than I do. All I know is I enjoyed the performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 11, 2020, 03:11:04 AM
Haitink's Xmas Matinee M8 is still my go to / guilty pleasure.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 04:05:44 AM
This may be a morbid question, but was there ever a tenor to sing Der Trunkene im Frühling who was a bona fide addict? I can see this being interesting kind of like how Kathleen Ferrier sung Der Abschied so beautifully while knowing she was near death.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 05:01:34 AM
Favorite recordings of Das klagende Lied...? I ought to listen to it I think.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 11, 2020, 05:11:57 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 04:05:44 AM
This may be a morbid question, but was there ever a tenor to sing Der Trunkene im Frühling who was a bona fide addict? I can see this being interesting kind of like how Kathleen Ferrier sung Der Abschied so beautifully while knowing she was near death.
Well, the much lamented Fritz Wunderlich (who appears in the legendary Klemperer recording of DLvdE) apparently was quite fond of his drink. The talk in musical circles in Vienna was that the tragic fall that led to his untimely dead was caused by the fact that he was completely inebriated when it happened.  :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 11, 2020, 05:12:12 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 05:01:34 AM
Favorite recordings of Das klagende Lied...? I ought to listen to it I think.

Most recordings are of a hybrid version that Mahler never sanctioned, grafting the original Part I onto the revised Parts II and III (because Part I was cut out of the revision entirely).  If you don't mind that, the Chailly has served me well over the years:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51diok5gAxL._SX466_.jpg)

This video recording has the complete original version, which to my knowledge was only otherwise recorded by Kent Nagano:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71x%2BHyQHnpL._SY445_.jpg)

There are a LOT of differences between the revised and unrevised versions of the later movements. The orchestration is, naturally, far more refined in the revised versions, and he definitely improved some things, but the original is still worth hearing.


Musically I think Das klagende Lied is certainly not a mature work; it's interesting and contains some good parts but a lot of really awkward things too that would never appear in any of Mahler's later writing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 11, 2020, 05:58:44 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 05:01:34 AM
Favorite recordings of Das klagende Lied...? I ought to listen to it I think.

There are three versions of Das Klagende Lied

(1) The original three-part version - as far as I know only Nagano/Halle has recorded this on CD; there is a DVD from Jurowski and the LPO
(2) The heavily revised two-part version that Mahler performed. There are several recordings of this; I have Haitink, Boulez (DG) and Kubelik, all fine recordings, it depends on what you want as a coupling.
(3) The hybrid version confected by the record companies. When Mahler revised the work he discarded the first part, Waldmärchen; the score survived. Starting with Boulez (CBS) the work was issued as Das klagende Lied but it was really Mahler's two part version with Waldmärchen bolted on to it. Chailly, Rattle and others have done this. This hybrid is not what Mahler wanted and it is not always easily possible to tell this from the disc information. However, if you want to hear all three parts you may want to go for one of these version, try Rattle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 06:38:09 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 11, 2020, 05:11:57 AM
Well, the much lamented Fritz Wunderlich (who appears in the legendary Klemperer recording of DLvdE) apparently was quite fond of his drink. The talk in musical circles in Vienna was that the tragic fall that led to his untimely dead was caused by the fact that he was completely inebriated when it happened.  :(

Wow!! I was actually listening to the Wunderlich recording of Der Trunkene when I wrote that post. I had no idea. He has long been my favorite tenor performer of the work, but I will have to listen again very soon. That is chilling.

Thanks Biffo & Mahlerian for the thoughts on DKL. I am curious to hear Nagano (which has been recommended to me before, but I didn't realize it was a "definitive" version as such) as well as Chailly. The fact that Mahler himself didn't sanction this version doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 11, 2020, 06:59:53 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 06:38:09 AM
Wow!! I was actually listening to the Wunderlich recording of Der Trunkene when I wrote that post. I had no idea. He has long been my favorite tenor performer of the work, but I will have to listen again very soon. That is chilling.

Thanks Biffo & Mahlerian for the thoughts on DKL. I am curious to hear Nagano (which has been recommended to me before, but I didn't realize it was a "definitive" version as such) as well as Chailly. The fact that Mahler himself didn't sanction this version doesn't bother me.

Nagano is only the 'definitive' version of Mahler's original from ca. 1880. The revised work dates from 1898 onwards - Mahler revised it at least three times (see Mahlerian also). The Chailly version is excellent but I only have it as a reissue (Decca 2CD) and it has minimal notes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 11, 2020, 08:24:00 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 08, 2020, 10:20:08 AM
Andre, you were wondering about the 2020 Amsterdam Mahler Festival.

It has been cancelled due to the pandemic and social distancing.

People had been working on this for two years, organising things, and it is all gone. Imagine how that must feel...

It's really sad. The article I shared about the 1920 Mahler Festival was actually much longer. I cut the part about all the logistics and preparation that went into it. Amazing commitment, almost fanatical devotion to the cause, ordinary folks participation, etc. From flowers to tramway stop announcements, invitation cards, hotel and private house accommodations, city tours etc.

I'm sure the 2020 edition would have been something to remember... :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 11, 2020, 10:19:28 AM
^Damn, so they've cancelled it outright? No chance they'll just push it back a year?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2020, 12:01:41 PM
Quote from: Herman on April 09, 2020, 11:09:06 PM
Haitink's well-publicised lack of interest in nr 8 cannot have helped in the reputation of his recordings of said work.

His Xmas matinee recording of the piece is IMHO terrific, except of course for Gwyneth Jones' infamous glitch in the last minute of the piece.

If only it were a Xmas matinee performance.
Then it would have been part of the Xmas matinee DVD/CD boxset(s).

Haitink never finished the Mahler cycle for Christmas, because of his goodbye in 1988. He did the 8th as his farewell concert though, April 1988.
As a performance, it was indeed much better and intense than the studio recording imho, despite the glitches. I must admit that I have never been that fond of Jones' voice though, but that is, of course, a matter of preference(s).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R57d8qvZt_g
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 11, 2020, 01:40:34 PM
ThNks for that link, Marc ! I wasn't aware of its existence.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 04:52:37 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71vGPk3Lt4L._SL500_.jpg)

Is this 1951 performance by Klemperer w/ the Concergebouw the fastest Resurrection on record, at 71 minutes? I really love his classic performance with the Philharmonia, but I'm curious to hear this one now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 12, 2020, 05:09:44 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 04:52:37 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71vGPk3Lt4L._SL500_.jpg)

Is this 1951 performance by Klemperer w/ the Concergebouw the fastest Resurrection on record, at 71 minutes? I really love his classic performance with the Philharmonia, but I'm curious to hear this one now.

A different issue of what must be the same performance (Guild Historical) has a timing of 77:08 - a couple of minutes faster than the Philharmonia and BRSO performances.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Apr06/Mahler2_Klemperer_GHCD2210.htm
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 05:25:41 AM
Yes, looks like that is the same performance. Odd, I wonder which of these listed track times is wrong...:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71x1KT78pdL._SL500_.jpg)

Comparing this with the mp3 tracks that are on Amazon, it seems to line up. I'll have to listen and find out!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 12, 2020, 05:30:43 AM
The Guild disc includes introduction and conclusion comments from the radio announcer (the performance was broadcast) as well as some applause, but i don't know if it adds up to the timing difference.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 12, 2020, 05:41:23 AM
The same performance on Decca Historical, available on Spotify, has a timing of 71 mins!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: knight66 on April 12, 2020, 12:50:29 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 21, 2019, 04:04:13 PM
I saw this earlier:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IasAAOSwNXpch2hF/s-l1600.jpg)

Couldn't find much more information on it, but looks like clearly a different recording, with the BBC Symphony, a younger Boulez.

Thanks for the word on Wit. I'm a big fan of his. I'll have to check it out some more.

Coming very late to this. The recording is live, it was a broadcast BBC Prom. I was in the then SNO Choris. I have the recording and the engineering is surprisingly good with the epic scale coming across. There is one serious blot: the tenor Alberto Remedios sings very well in part one, but really does not manage at all in part 2. Boulez seemed very disengaged, but the performance has great flexibility and he gets a lot of the detail to be heard.

Mike
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 12, 2020, 01:10:53 PM
Quote from: knight66 on April 12, 2020, 12:50:29 PM
Coming very late to this. The recording is live, it was a broadcast BBC Prom. I was in the then SNO Choris. I have the recording and the engineering is surprisingly good with the epic scale coming across. There is one serious blot: the tenor Alberto Remedios sings very well in part one, but really does not manage at all in part 2. Boulez seemed very disengaged, but the performance has great flexibility and he gets a lot of the detail to be heard.

Mike
I have that recording but, as mentioned earlier in this thread, still haven't listened to it (got it at a sale of one of the largest CD collections in Spain, after its owner had died—my friends and I spent hours there, unearthing some really rare, long OOP stuff). It was the Boulez completist in me, rather than the fan of Mahler's Eighth—which I must admit I'm not—that led me to buy it. When I listen to it, I'll be able to say I know (virtually, at least) someone who's singing in it, Mike!  :)

Cheers,
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 13, 2020, 10:33:30 AM
Cross posted from the WAYL2 thread:

Mahler, symphony no 8. Bernard Haitink, RCOA, choirs and soloists. From Haitink's farewell concert as RCOA Music director in 1988. While a few minor mishaps occur here and there, this is a great, great performance. Typical Haitink, which is what I was looking for, with a more active percussion section and heftier choral forces than in the 1971 recording. Fantastic brass playing.

Thanks, Marc!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 14, 2020, 12:22:54 AM
Quote from: Marc on April 11, 2020, 12:01:41 PM
If only it were a Xmas matinee performance.
Then it would have been part of the Xmas matinee DVD/CD boxset(s).

Haitink never finished the Mahler cycle for Christmas, because of his goodbye in 1988. He did the 8th as his farewell concert though, April 1988.
As a performance, it was indeed much better and intense than the studio recording imho, despite the glitches. I must admit that I have never been that fond of Jones' voice though, but that is, of course, a matter of preference(s).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R57d8qvZt_g

Maybe it was not a Matinee. I have a hard time, though, picturing this as his final Mahler performance as Chief Conductor. Wasn't this Mahler 9, at the end of which Haitink theatrically let go of his baton? One can tell Haitink is exhausted at the end of M8, which is of course a very complex work to conduct, big orchestra, a busload of singers and the entire choir, even though the music is fairly straightforward

It's virtually impossible to get a impeccable line-up of singers for a live performance of pf a work as taxing as M8, and in this case Jones was the weak spot. Although I recall the tenor coming in for some comments, too.

I saw these concerts in real time (though not in the Concertgebouw, tickets used to be sold out long in advance). They're wonderful performances and of course great ways of seeing again the seventies, eighties bunch, like 1st trumpet Peter Masseurs (the silver-haired guy), Julia Studebaker in the horn line up, Viktor Liberman (M8) or Jaap van Zweden (M9) on 1st violin and the intriguing violist Matthias Maurer, and many many others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 14, 2020, 06:05:16 AM
I can forgive Jones' difficult balance beam near fall at the end, since she sings powerfully and almost in tune before that. But that tenor...! Strained on top (where Mahler mercilessly pushes him again and again) would be a charitable way to describe it. But in the end those glitches matter a lot less than the cumulative effect of a great performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 14, 2020, 06:37:54 AM
Quote from: André on April 14, 2020, 06:05:16 AM
I can forgive Jones' difficult balance beam near fall at the end, since she sings powerfully and almost in tune before that. But that tenor...! Strained on top (where Mahler mercilessly pushes him again and again) would be a charitable way to describe it. But in the end those glitches matter a lot less than the cumulative effect of a great performance.

I agree. It's my go to.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 14, 2020, 11:55:29 AM
Well, I think I've descended, at least temporarily, back into full-swing Mahler Mania. I've listened to two symphonies and two song cycles today, mostly Klemperer and Walter. The former is becoming possibly my favorite Mahlerian conductor and the latter is fascinating to me, and I must hear more at once. I'm thinking of getting his 9th with the Columbia SO (the greatest Hollywood-soundtrack-musicians pickup orchestra ever...?) even though I have 4 other recordings (that I am neglecting). I want to hear more of what he has to say in Mahler's music. He was after all the composer's protégé, and premiered the 9th and DLvdE.

I still want to hear more of Haitink's Mahler, too, but I think I can wait for good deals to come around. For some reason, at the moment, I'm only really interested in the late works, the Wunderhorn symphonies, & the song cycles. I haven't had any urge to listen to symphonies 5, 6 or 7 (or 3 for that matter). But I can't get enough of 1, 2, 4, 8 & Das Lied.

I'm glad to be back in a receptive phase for Mahler. I went months without listening to his music at all. But I'm afraid now my enthusiasm will be at the expensive of other composers.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 14, 2020, 12:58:37 PM
Go for that Walter 9. It's one of the great Mahler recordings, even sonically. Some prefer their Mahler more angst-ridden, but Walter's effusive embrace is heart-rending.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 14, 2020, 02:19:22 PM
Quote from: André on April 14, 2020, 12:58:37 PM
Go for that Walter 9. It's one of the great Mahler recordings, even sonically. Some prefer their Mahler more angst-ridden, but Walter's effusive embrace is heart-rending.

That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. There is a kind of simple tenderness in Walter's conducting of Mahler that I find appealing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 14, 2020, 04:24:17 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 14, 2020, 11:55:29 AMI haven't had any urge to listen to symphonies 5, 6 or 7 (or 3 for that matter).

:'( :'( :'(

I'm steeped in the Sixth right now (preparing a large-scale paper and presentation on the work) and I can't ever seem to stop finding new things in it. Schoenberg was right when he said it's a work in which absolutely nothing is superfluous.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 14, 2020, 07:18:11 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 14, 2020, 04:24:17 PM
:'( :'( :'(

I'm steeped in the Sixth right now (preparing a large-scale paper and presentation on the work) and I can't ever seem to stop finding new things in it. Schoenberg was right when he said it's a work in which absolutely nothing is superfluous.

I love the 6th! I didn't always, but it's grown on me a lot. It's just that I haven't felt drawn to it for whatever reason lately. Until a couple of weeks ago I'd gone months without feeling that strong pull to Mahler at all, but it's coming back.

What recording(s) of the 6th are you listening to lately? I have two, Abbado/Berlin and Bernstein/NYPO. I like both, but I prefer the Bernstein.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 15, 2020, 04:09:05 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 14, 2020, 07:18:11 PM
I love the 6th! I didn't always, but it's grown on me a lot. It's just that I haven't felt drawn to it for whatever reason lately. Until a couple of weeks ago I'd gone months without feeling that strong pull to Mahler at all, but it's coming back.

What recording(s) of the 6th are you listening to lately? I have two, Abbado/Berlin and Bernstein/NYPO. I like both, but I prefer the Bernstein.

I was joking a little bit!

Lately, I've been listening to Tennstedt/LPO live and Boulez/VPO, but I also know and enjoy both of the recordings you mentioned. As far as Abbado's recordings of the work go, I preferred his performance with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra, on video. I also used to really love Bernstein's late DG recording with Vienna, but haven't listened to it in a while.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 15, 2020, 04:34:27 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 15, 2020, 04:09:05 AM
I was joking a little bit!

Lately, I've been listening to Tennstedt/LPO live and Boulez/VPO, but I also know and enjoy both of the recordings you mentioned. As far as Abbado's recordings of the work go, I preferred his performance with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra, on video. I also used to really love Bernstein's late DG recording with Vienna, but haven't listened to it in a while.

I want to hear the Bernstein/VPO, I sampled it at one point and was really impressed. I haven't heard much anything out of that cycle, but I do love Bernstein's Mahler. As his Sony cycle was my introduction to most of the symphonies, I'm trying to expand my horizons and spend time with other Mahler conductors now: Haitink, Walter, Klemperer mostly.

I know Klaus Tennstedt is highly lauded as a Mahlerian, but I haven't heard any of his recordings. Would it be possible to describe his approach to Mahler's music in a few words? May be easier said than done, but I'm curious. Boulez I already know is a most excellent Mahler conductor, though I haven't heard his 6th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 15, 2020, 04:45:41 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 15, 2020, 04:34:27 AM
I want to hear the Bernstein/VPO, I sampled it at one point and was really impressed. I haven't heard much anything out of that cycle, but I do love Bernstein's Mahler. As his Sony cycle was my introduction to most of the symphonies, I'm trying to expand my horizons and spend time with other Mahler conductors now: Haitink, Walter, Klemperer mostly.

His later cycle tends to be slower and more drawn out, but it works surprisingly well and he gets wonderful playing from his orchestras. The NYPO set has a lot of fire, but it's very early in the Mahler revival and there's a sense that the players don't quite understand how the music should sound.

Walter and Klemperer both worked directly with Mahler early on, though neither left a recording of the Sixth (Walter never conducted it even once and hated the work's pessimism). If you haven't heard it yet, definitely listen to the 1930s Bruno Walter Ninth.

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 15, 2020, 04:34:27 AMI know Klaus Tennstedt is highly lauded as a Mahlerian, but I haven't heard any of his recordings. Would it be possible to describe his approach to Mahler's music in a few words? May be easier said than done, but I'm curious. Boulez I already know is a most excellent Mahler conductor, though I haven't heard his 6th.

Tennstedt's Mahler also tends towards slower tempi, but it's nothing like, say, Celibidache's Bruckner where everything is drawn out excessively. He brings out the innately polyphonic nature of the music by letting all of its layers breathe musically and shapes every phrase and every movement so that it has meaning for the whole, without playing down the disjunctive surface of the music. I feel some conductors treat Mahler's symphonies as if they were a collection of moments, but Tennstedt and Boulez both treat them as cohesive works without smoothing them out, which is especially important in the Sixth.

His live performances are generally best, but his studio recordings aren't bad either. None of his recordings have the vivid (very close-mic) sound that one finds on more recent renditions, but for me that's secondary.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 15, 2020, 04:52:10 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 15, 2020, 04:45:41 AM
His later cycle tends to be slower and more drawn out, but it works surprisingly well and he gets wonderful playing from his orchestras. The NYPO set has a lot of fire, but it's very early in the Mahler revival and there's a sense that the players don't quite understand how the music should sound.

Walter and Klemperer both worked directly with Mahler early on, though neither left a recording of the Sixth (Walter never conducted it even once and hated the work's pessimism). If you haven't heard it yet, definitely listen to the 1930s Bruno Walter Ninth.

Tennstedt's Mahler also tends towards slower tempi, but it's nothing like, say, Celibidache's Bruckner where everything is drawn out excessively. He brings out the innately polyphonic nature of the music by letting all of its layers breathe musically and shapes every phrase and every movement so that it has meaning for the whole, without playing down the disjunctive surface of the music.

His live performances are generally best, but his studio recordings aren't bad either. None of his recordings have the vivid (very close-mic) sound that one finds on more recent renditions, but for me that's secondary.

I'm not much for historical orchestral recordings, but I'll have to hear the Walter/Vienna 9th at least once. Right now I'm looking into getting his Columbia SO 9th from shortly before his death. 

Thanks for the description of Tennstedt. That does sound interesting. The big box on Warner/EMI used to be really cheap, and contains all his studio recordings plus a handful of live. I was considering getting it at one point (before I bought the Bernstein cycle) but I don't think I need that much Mahler at this point. But I'll owe it to myself to check him out at least.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 15, 2020, 06:00:41 AM
For what it is worth, these are now distant memories, I heard Tennstedt conduct the Resurrection Symphony with  the LPO and it left no impression whatsoever, unlike Levine and the LSO (stunning) and Mehta and the Philharmonia (stunningly bad) in the same work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 15, 2020, 10:47:03 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 14, 2020, 04:24:17 PM
:'( :'( :'(

I'm steeped in the Sixth right now (preparing a large-scale paper and presentation on the work) and I can't ever seem to stop finding new things in it. Schoenberg was right when he said it's a work in which absolutely nothing is superfluous.

I used to be obsessed with the 6th back when I was an undergrad at Michigan. Will never forget the discussions I had with Professor Bolcom on the work. He was much less impressed with it than I - and ultimately got on my case for being too deeply into it - he said I was "emotionally interested in Mahler" and needed to broaden my horizons. I can't say that he was wrong!

But I still consider it Mahler's most tightly argued and motivically unified symphony. I totally agree with Schoenberg that there is nothing superfluous in it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on April 15, 2020, 10:54:25 AM
The Bertini and Currentzis recordings made the work click for me - leaving somehow more space, broadness and varied details to the work, both sonically and as regards the interpretation, than some of the more hectic versions, Scherchen/Leipzig being the extreme example. In both cases, a timing around 83 minutes. I could survive with Currentzis only.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 15, 2020, 11:58:30 AM
Quote from: krummholz on April 15, 2020, 10:47:03 AM
I used to be obsessed with the 6th back when I was an undergrad at Michigan. Will never forget the discussions I had with Professor Bolcom on the work. He was much less impressed with it than I - and ultimately got on my case for being too deeply into it - he said I was "emotionally interested in Mahler" and needed to broaden my horizons. I can't say that he was wrong!

But I still consider it Mahler's most tightly argued and motivically unified symphony. I totally agree with Schoenberg that there is nothing superfluous in it.

My own current composition teacher is far less enamored of Mahler than I am, even though our tastes are otherwise quite similar. What was Bolcom like as a teacher? I only know a few of his songs and miscellaneous piano works.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 15, 2020, 03:52:20 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on April 15, 2020, 10:54:25 AM
The Bertini and Currentzis recordings made the work click for me - leaving somehow more space, broadness and varied details to the work, both sonically and as regards the interpretation, than some of the more hectic versions, Scherchen/Leipzig being the extreme example. In both cases, a timing around 83 minutes. I could survive with Currentzis only.

I think Currentzis is the current (pun not intended) modern reference.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 15, 2020, 04:50:30 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 15, 2020, 11:58:30 AM
My own current composition teacher is far less enamored of Mahler than I am, even though our tastes are otherwise quite similar. What was Bolcom like as a teacher? I only know a few of his songs and miscellaneous piano works.

Bolcom was a very supportive kind of teacher, at least to me. He did his best to encourage me through a very fallow period. He did not do any extensive formal training with me, though I recall he had me working counterpoint exercises for a while. I remember him as one of the two composition teachers there that I really liked - the other was Albright, who shepherded me through writing a movement for string quartet that eventually became my String Quartet No. 1, some 45 years later. I didn't finish anything of any consequence while working with Bolcom, though that was certainly my fault not his.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 05:58:13 AM
Could someone recommend me a good book about Mahler? Please, don't say de la Grange. I'm not looking to read four massive tomes about his life right now, just something that works as an overview of his life and works with maybe a good balance of musical and biographical analysis. Is that too much to ask for?  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 16, 2020, 06:02:09 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 05:58:13 AM
Could someone recommend me a good book about Mahler? Please, don't say de la Grange. I'm not looking to read four massive tomes about his life right now, just something that works as an overview of his life and works with maybe a good balance of musical and biographical analysis. Is that too much to ask for?  :)

This one was pretty good, although I think the author leans too far towards the Adorno view of Mahler as pessimist:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51LerNPHdzL.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on April 16, 2020, 06:03:45 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 05:58:13 AM
Could someone recommend me a good book about Mahler? Please, don't say de la Grange. I'm not looking to read four massive tomes about his life right now, just something that works as an overview of his life and works with maybe a good balance of musical and biographical analysis. Is that too much to ask for?  :)

For single tomes, I enjoyed the Blaukopfs :

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KhLdWwIYL._SX350_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 16, 2020, 06:12:58 AM
It's a pity the condensed La Grange has not been translated into English AFAIK. It is available in French, Italian and Spanish. Actually, two friends and myself started translating it into Spanish several years ago (after on if us received a verbal go ahead from the author), but were beat to publication by another chap.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 06:18:10 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 16, 2020, 06:12:58 AM
It's a pity the condensed La Grange has not been translated into English AFAIK. It is available in French, Italian and Spanish. Actually, two friends and myself started translating it into Spanish several years ago (after on if us received a verbal go ahead from the author), but were beat to publication by another chap.

Hmm, I can read French. Might look into that then.

Thanks much, guys. I ordered a copy of the Blaukopfs' book (which seems to contain a lot of unedited primary sources, correspondence and such) and the Fischer looks good too, but I'm looking for a cheaper copy. At the same time I just ordered the full score to Das Lied von der Erde for quite cheap, so I'm very much looking forward to getting that! I don't own any Mahler scores and it's high time I changed that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 16, 2020, 06:35:21 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 06:18:10 AM
Hmm, I can read French. Might look into that then.

It's this one:

[asin]B005OKYQS8[/asin]
Much cheaper in Europe, but OOP as far as I can see. Perhaps AbeBooks has cheaper copies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 16, 2020, 08:17:09 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 14, 2020, 11:55:29 AM
Well, I think I've descended, at least temporarily, back into full-swing Mahler Mania.

Did you get a doctor to test you for this?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 16, 2020, 08:18:16 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 14, 2020, 04:24:17 PM
:'( :'( :'(

I'm steeped in the Sixth right now (preparing a large-scale paper and presentation on the work) and I can't ever seem to stop finding new things in it. Schoenberg was right when he said it's a work in which absolutely nothing is superfluous.

I'm very much interested in the Sixth, too, now.

Which I haven't been for such a long time that I can't even find a recording in my house, so I have order the Boulez.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 08:32:37 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 16, 2020, 08:18:16 AM
I'm very much interested in the Sixth, too, now.

Which I haven't been for such a long time that I can't even find a recording in my house, so I have order the Boulez.

I have been looking at the Boulez/Vienna 6th too. His 5th with them is so great. I love the artwork for his Mahler series.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 16, 2020, 09:04:25 AM
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-Boulez-1995-04-11/dp/B01M3WDVT3/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=boulez+mahler+4&qid=1587060188&sr=8-4)
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 08:32:37 AM
I have been looking at the Boulez/Vienna 6th too. His 5th with them is so great. I love the artwork for his Mahler series.

I have ordered nr 6. Used singles are very cheap because there's a box set, so many people dumped those pretty singles recordings.

(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-Boulez-1995-04-11/dp/B01M3WDVT3/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=boulez+mahler+4&qid=1587060188&sr=8-4)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 16, 2020, 09:07:43 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 08:32:37 AM
I have been looking at the Boulez/Vienna 6th too. His 5th with them is so great. I love the artwork for his Mahler series.

I really wish they had kept using expressionist artwork for all of the covers, because I discovered some really fascinating paintings that way.

The one for his Ninth is great too:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61l1wwA3ncL.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 10:32:29 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 16, 2020, 09:07:43 AM
I really wish they had kept using expressionist artwork for all of the covers, because I discovered some really fascinating paintings that way.

The one for his Ninth is great too:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61l1wwA3ncL.jpg)

Ah, I forgot they decided to get photographic for 2, 3 and 8. Yes, they should have kept going with the beautiful paintings.

@Herman, that's a good point. I considered getting the boxed set but I don't really think I need all that much Boulez Mahler. But I am going to jump on the 6th. I've found it for four dollars on ebay.

Man, is anyone enjoying the 8th as much as I am lately? I've been listening to the Haitink/RCO and today the Bernstein/London/Sony.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616G4ghYArL._SX800_.jpg)

What an excellent symphony. It's very different from any of his others, & I think that's why I didn't like it for so long. But it's definitely no lesser than any of his other work. I've heard critics say that its optimism is unconvincing. Well, I don't know if optimism is the word I would use, nor would I call it any less convincing than, say, the "pessimism" or "nihilism" (and again, I don't think these words capture the whole story) of the 6th.

I'm going to listen to my other recording, Wit/Warsaw/Naxos, sometime next week, and I have the very famous Solti/Chicago en route to me as well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 16, 2020, 10:58:55 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 10:32:29 AMWhat an excellent symphony. It's very different from any of his others, & I think that's why I didn't like it for so long. But it's definitely no lesser than any of his other work. I've heard critics say that its optimism is unconvincing. Well, I don't know if optimism is the word I would use, nor would I call it any less convincing than, say, the "pessimism" or "nihilism" (and again, I don't think these words capture the whole story) of the 6th.

That was certainly Adorno's view. I think, as perceptive as he was regarding Mahler's music (and remember that he was one of the first to really take Mahler's music seriously), his own blind spots came into play there. Mahler considered the Eighth his best work at one point.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 12:09:12 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 16, 2020, 10:58:55 AM
That was certainly Adorno's view. I think, as perceptive as he was regarding Mahler's music (and remember that he was one of the first to really take Mahler's music seriously), his own blind spots came into play there. Mahler considered the Eighth his best work at one point.

I think there is some truth to that. I think I had it all wrong before, thinking about it as some kind of arrogant expression of grandeur when in reality, that's not at all what it is, but something more mystical, more mysterious, maybe more existential. In any case, it's really quite approachable considering the headiness of its subject matter. I look forward to spending much more time with it over the years.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on April 16, 2020, 04:34:26 PM
The only 8th I've had is Rattle's, and it's unbearably happy-shouty-joyous.

I'll be listening to Gielen's shortly.

People recommended Nagano to me as non-happy-shouty-joyous but I'm yet to try the whole thing. Samples were promising.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 16, 2020, 05:08:16 PM
Quote from: Madiel on April 16, 2020, 04:34:26 PM
The only 8th I've had is Rattle's, and it's unbearably happy-shouty-joyous.

I'll be listening to Gielen's shortly.

People recommended Nagano to me as non-happy-shouty-joyous but I'm yet to try the whole thing. Samples were promising.

Which one of Rattles 8?  They are not of equal quality.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on April 16, 2020, 05:09:30 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 16, 2020, 05:08:16 PM
Which one of Rattles 8?  They are not of equal quality.

I didn't know he had more than one. City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 16, 2020, 05:42:42 PM
Same with Gielen. He recorded it twice, with quite different results. His second version is a full 12 minutes longer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 16, 2020, 05:47:04 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 10:32:29 AM
Ah, I forgot they decided to get photographic for 2, 3 and 8. Yes, they should have kept going with the beautiful paintings.

@Herman, that's a good point. I considered getting the boxed set but I don't really think I need all that much Boulez Mahler. But I am going to jump on the 6th. I've found it for four dollars on ebay.

Man, is anyone enjoying the 8th as much as I am lately? I've been listening to the Haitink/RCO and today the Bernstein/London/Sony.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616G4ghYArL._SX800_.jpg)

What an excellent symphony. It's very different from any of his others, & I think that's why I didn't like it for so long. But it's definitely no lesser than any of his other work. I've heard critics say that its optimism is unconvincing. Well, I don't know if optimism is the word I would use, nor would I call it any less convincing than, say, the "pessimism" or "nihilism" (and again, I don't think these words capture the whole story) of the 6th.

I'm going to listen to my other recording, Wit/Warsaw/Naxos, sometime next week, and I have the very famous Solti/Chicago en route to me as well.

The Bernstein was my first hearing of it: he slam dunks the work!  The Solti/Chicago...well, make up your own mind about it!   ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on April 16, 2020, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: André on April 16, 2020, 05:42:42 PM
Same with Gielen. He recorded it twice, with quite different results. His second version is a full 12 minutes longer.

Well I've got whatever's in the box set.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81wc5jq9YjL._SX466_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 16, 2020, 07:38:23 PM
Quote from: Cato on April 16, 2020, 05:47:04 PM
The Bernstein was my first hearing of it: he slam dunks the work!  The Solti/Chicago...well, make up your own mind about it!   ;)

I agree, that Bernstein recording was damn good. I thought there were a few faults with the sound but after a short while they didn't bother me a bit. I'm going to listen to it again soonish. I also plan on hearing Wit/Warsaw/Naxos soon which came highly recommended to me. I love Wit's work with Polish composers like Szymanowski, Penderecki & Lutoslawski, but haven't heard any of his Mahler—it seems he generally takes slower tempi with Mahler, no? The majority of his Naxos Mahler recordings are 2CDs. Solti can probably wait. I've heard it before and wasn't impressed then, but this is before I really had any love for the symphony at all.

I want to hear more of them too. I feel like there's a lot that can be done with this work interpretively speaking. But then another part of me is saying just pick one and be done with it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 16, 2020, 10:53:07 PM
I seem to recall that Solti's nr 8 was a recommendation long time ago, when most things Solti did were a recommendation and we seemed to live in a world where you had Solti and Karajan if you wanted to be completely sure you had 'the best'.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 16, 2020, 11:09:41 PM
The box should have the more recent Gielen recording with the SWF. There was an older one on Sony that was live from the re-opening of the Alte Oper, Frankfurt in the early 1980s and among other things, sonically far from ideal.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 17, 2020, 05:06:18 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 16, 2020, 10:53:07 PM
I seem to recall that Solti's nr 8 was a recommendation long time ago, when most things Solti did were a recommendation and we seemed to live in a world where you had Solti and Karajan if you wanted to be completely sure you had 'the best'.

That's before my time. I got into classical music in an era when everyone hated Solti and Karajan.  ;D

It seems Solti/CSO Mahler 8 is still a recommendation, especially for its cast of soloists and recorded sound, but I've seen more than a few reviewers say that he misses the mark. In any case it's still more highly regarded than any of his other Mahler recordings. I've heard it once in the past and thought it pretty good, along with the Solti/London Resurrection with Heather Harper and Helen Watts.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 17, 2020, 06:07:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 16, 2020, 11:09:41 PM
The box should have the more recent Gielen recording with the SWF. There was an older one on Sony that was live from the re-opening of the Alte Oper, Frankfurt in the early 1980s and among other things, sonically far from ideal.

A turbocharged reading with distant sound. For a rather similar experience, but in more immediate sonics, there's Järvi père on BIS.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 17, 2020, 06:27:42 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 16, 2020, 05:47:04 PM
The Bernstein was my first hearing of it: he slam dunks the work!  The Solti/Chicago...well, make up your own mind about it!   ;)

Is this Bernstein/LSO No. 8 the same one in the DG box set since they never recorded that symphony, they used a pre-existing or live performance for the box set but which performance?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 17, 2020, 06:38:11 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 17, 2020, 06:27:42 AM
Is this Bernstein/LSO No. 8 the same one in the DG box set since they never recorded that symphony, they used a pre-existing or live performance for the box set but which performance?

The track listing (Amazon) for the Bernstein DG Mahler 8 in the box set has the orchestra as the Vienna Philharmonic plus three Viennese choirs. One of the reviews states that the performance is the 'almost identical' to the one in the Vienna DVD cycle
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 17, 2020, 09:56:14 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 17, 2020, 06:38:11 AM
The track listing (Amazon) for the Bernstein DG Mahler 8 in the box set has the orchestra as the Vienna Philharmonic plus three Viennese choirs. One of the reviews states that the performance is the 'almost identical' to the one in the Vienna DVD cycle

I was under the impression that it was the same performance as the DVD cycle; he never got around to re-recording the 8th before his death, so they reused that one from a previous traversal.

The London recording is part of the Sony/NYP box, as he never recorded it in New York (or at least not completely, to my knowledge). I have it as part of that great box set.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 17, 2020, 03:24:42 PM
I'm curious to explore a few Mahler conductors that I'm not altogether familiar with... if anyone out there has enough time on their hands and wants to help me with this, what are a few essential Mahler recordings of, and general thoughts on, the following conductors?

Klaus Tennstedt
Simon Rattle
Riccardo Chailly
Rafael Kubelík

Finally, are there any great Mahlerian conductors that I should check out that I didn't name here? Some of those I already like are Bernstein, Klemperer, Walter & Haitink, and to a lesser extent Abbado, Barbirolli & Boulez. Part of me wants to get another cycle of the symphonies, but I wonder if any of them are consistent enough to justify getting the whole set.

Thanks much in advance to anyone willing to indulge me here.  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 17, 2020, 04:12:29 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 17, 2020, 03:24:42 PM
I'm curious to explore a few Mahler conductors that I'm not altogether familiar with... if anyone out there has enough time on their hands and wants to help me with this, what are a few essential Mahler recordings of, and general thoughts on, the following conductors?

Klaus Tennstedt

Check out his live 6th and 2nd on BBC classics. Sound quality isn't wonderful, but the performances are as intense as any you'll find.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514mYOsqc%2BL._SX425_.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41BO8GUyEFL._SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: some guy on April 17, 2020, 04:14:05 PM
Kubelik's fifth was the first Mahler I heard and liked. It's what got me hooked.

For what it's worth.

I recently (in the past decade or so) found Gielen's recordings of Mahler's ninth and fourth to be very impressive. These are two Mahler symphonies I've never really liked all that much. In Gielen's performances, they not only make total sense but come across as quite obviously likeable. I found his sixth and seventh, however (the only two others of his that I've heard), to be quite unpalatable. But since Bernstein has done impeccable recordings of both, it mattereth not one whit.

I have yet to hear a recording or a performance of Rattle that I enjoy. And I generally like everything that Abbado did. Well, except for that disagreement with Hélène Grimaud. But that's as may be. He was a fine conductor.

For me, it's Abbado for the first, Haitink for the 2nd and 3rd, Gielen for the 4th, Kubelik for the 5th, Bernstein for the 6th and 7th, and Gielen for the ninth.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 17, 2020, 04:26:10 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 17, 2020, 06:27:42 AM
Is this Bernstein/LSO No. 8 the same one in the DG box set since they never recorded that symphony, they used a pre-existing or live performance for the box set but which performance?

The cover above is the one on the Columbia LP with the London Symphony.

Quote from: Biffo on April 17, 2020, 06:38:11 AM
The track listing (Amazon) for the Bernstein DG Mahler 8 in the box set has the orchestra as the Vienna Philharmonic plus three Viennese choirs. One of the reviews states that the performance is the 'almost identical' to the one in the Vienna DVD cycle
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on April 17, 2020, 04:37:22 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 17, 2020, 03:24:42 PM
I'm curious to explore a few Mahler conductors that I'm not altogether familiar with... if anyone out there has enough time on their hands and wants to help me with this, what are a few essential Mahler recordings of, and general thoughts on, the following conductors?

Klaus Tennstedt
Simon Rattle
Riccardo Chailly
Rafael Kubelík

Finally, are there any great Mahlerian conductors that I should check out that I didn't name here? Some of those I already like are Bernstein, Klemperer, Walter & Haitink, and to a lesser extent Abbado, Barbirolli & Boulez. Part of me wants to get another cycle of the symphonies, but I wonder if any of them are consistent enough to justify getting the whole set.

Thanks much in advance to anyone willing to indulge me here.  ;D

Abbado; the 7th with Berlin, I think one of the best Mahler recordings ever done. Some prefer the 7th he did at Chicago. The Second he did at Chicago is very good., but the one he did at Vienna is horrible (I think) and the one from Lucerne is meh. The Chicago can be found coupled with a good Fourth.

Tennstedt: there's a set with the full cycle and three live performances as extras (including the two Mahlerian posted). I think the whole set is good.

Chailly: pick any, they are all good.

Kubelik: same

Rattle: what Some Guy said, but qualified by an above average 10th.

Four Ninths by conductors you didn't mention: Zinman, Barenboim, Levine with the Munich Philharmonic,  Maderna with the BBC Symphony

Two sets I think are good throughout by conductors not always mentioned are Inbal and Nott.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Alek Hidell on April 17, 2020, 05:14:38 PM
I kind of OD'd on Mahler a while back and haven't revisited much lately, but Rattle's CBSO recording of the Second is my favorite recording of that work (it's Alex Ross' desert-island choice too, or at least it was a few years back).

I recall liking Chailly's Fifth, and I believe it's generally well-regarded.

I have the Kubelik set but I don't think I've heard any of it after the Third (his First is excellent).

One great Mahlerian (and speaking of which: welcome back, Mahlerian! :)) I haven't seen mentioned here lately is Horenstein. He didn't record an entire cycle (lacking the Second and Fifth, IIRC) but what he did record is very good. His Third is a classic, of course, and his First is also quite fine. I remember less of the others I've heard but I recall also liking his Fourth.

vers la flamme, you might also check out the Bertini cycle. He's kind of an obscure conductor but his set is very solid - just nice and consistent. And then there's also Michael Tilson Thomas, whose SFSO cycle is consistently solid and in very fine sound (though also quite pricey if you buy the box set). His Third in that set is my favorite, and outside that cycle he also did a very good Seventh with the LSO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 17, 2020, 05:38:24 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 17, 2020, 03:24:42 PM
I'm curious to explore a few Mahler conductors that I'm not altogether familiar with... if anyone out there has enough time on their hands and wants to help me with this, what are a few essential Mahler recordings of, and general thoughts on, the following conductors?

Klaus Tennstedt
Simon Rattle
Riccardo Chailly
Rafael Kubelík

Finally, are there any great Mahlerian conductors that I should check out that I didn't name here? Some of those I already like are Bernstein, Klemperer, Walter & Haitink, and to a lesser extent Abbado, Barbirolli & Boulez. Part of me wants to get another cycle of the symphonies, but I wonder if any of them are consistent enough to justify getting the whole set.

Thanks much in advance to anyone willing to indulge me here.  ;D

I know that I have mentioned Leopold Ludwig in previous years: the sound may not be the highest quality, but the power and attention to detail come through.

Unfortunately, only a CD with the Ninth Symphony seems to be available.

[asin]B00EB1QXE6[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 17, 2020, 11:47:55 PM
Maybe it's good, when listing conductors, to divide them into two camps.

There are conductors who are into making beautiful music out of Mahler, and there are conductors who are into unleashing the drama inherent in the music. It goes back to the ur-opposition between Klemperer and Walter. You can figure out which approach you prefer and focus on those conductors.

From what I know, Tennstedt focuses on the drama first. Abbado is more about creating a beautiful orchestral picture.

The downside, of course, is that in the recording studio all conductors tend to move towards the beautiful end. So Haitink live belongs to the drama camp, but in the studio he was pushed towards the beautiful camp.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 18, 2020, 02:01:27 AM
Kubelik would be my top choice for a complete cycle; his Nos 1 & 6 are my top choices for those works. He did a fine live Das Lied von der Erde with Janet Baker and Waldemar Kmentt.

Chailly's cycle with the Concertgebouw is uniformly good but none of them would be a first choice except perhaps No 8 but that is my own idiosyncratic taste. The sound quality is excellent and there are also some interesting couplings (there was with the individual issues.

Not enamoured at all with Tennstedt.

Rattle is variable, Nos 3 & 7 are the pick of the cycle. I thought his No 2 over-hyped. I heard him conduct No 6 twice and was impressed, less so with his CBSO recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 18, 2020, 05:23:46 AM
Quote from: Cato on April 17, 2020, 05:38:24 PM
I know that I have mentioned Leopold Ludwig in previous years: the sound may not be the highest quality, but the power and attention to detail come through.

Unfortunately, only a CD with the Ninth Symphony seems to be available.

[asin]B00EB1QXE6[/asin]

Ludwig's M9 is one of my top three versions, along with Maderna BBC and Walter Columbia Symphony. Very lucid, unsentimental, direct, unvarnished. Possibly the most classically symphonic reading I've heard.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 18, 2020, 06:44:30 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 17, 2020, 03:24:42 PM
I'm curious to explore a few Mahler conductors that I'm not altogether familiar with...

Quote from: Biffo on April 18, 2020, 02:01:27 AM
Chailly's cycle with the Concertgebouw is uniformly good but none of them would be a first choice except perhaps No 8 but that is my own idiosyncratic taste.

I agree with Biffo about Chailly. None save the 8th is an absolute first choice for me but his cycle as a whole is, along with Bernstein/Sony/DG and Maazel/Vienna, my favorite because his interpretations are nearly always very individual.

I have around 20 to 30 recordings of each symphony, Keeping the list down to three per, these are my picks:

1

Honeck/Pittsburgh
Maazel/Vienna
Bernstein/Concertgebouw (DG)

2

Kaplan/Vienna (brings out details like the col legno effect in the first movement like no other conductor)
Maazel/Vienna
Bernstein/New York (DG)

3

Horenstein/LSO
Haitink/Concertgebouw
Bernstein/New York (Sony)

4

Maazel/Vienna with Battle
Szell/Cleveland with Raskin
Boulez/Cleveland with Banse

5

Dohnányi/Cleveland
Chailly/Concertgebouw
Neumann/Gewandhaus

6

Solti/Chicago
Szell/Cleveland
Bernstein/Vienna (DG)

7

Klemperer/Philarmonia
Maazel/Vienna
Bernstein/New York (Sony)

8

Chailly/Concertgebouw
Ozawa/Boston
Sinopoli/Philarmonia

9

Karajan/Berlin
Haitink/Concertgebouw
Levine/Munich

10

Levine/Philadelphia
Ormandy/Philadelphia
Barshai/Junge Deutsche Phil
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 18, 2020, 07:43:59 AM
Wow, there are some serious Mahler heads here, to put my comparatively minuscule collection to shame  :o

I should have known better than to ask such an open ended question. Now, I have more suggestions to work through than I can wrap my head around. That being said, a few of these jump out at me as something that I should hear ASAP...: Tennstedt/LPO live 2 (and possibly 6), Horenstein 3, Chailly 8, Kubelik/Audite Das Lied (been recommended to me so many times I've lost count).

I also ordered the Haitink/Berlin Mahler 3 because I found a copy for cheap. Any fans of this? I liked what I heard. It seems Mahler 3 was something of a signature work for Haitink. He's recorded it at least four times, if not more. I really wanted the Concertgebouw 3, the old one, but couldn't find it anywhere.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on April 18, 2020, 08:08:59 AM
You seem less interested in historical recordings, but for some very different Mahler performances compared to the previous suggestions (and probably in line with the degree of performance creativity of Mahler's own conducting age), try Scherchen - often frantic, exaggerated, sweeping, ebb-and-flow Mahler like you haven't heard it before:

- Symphony 6 / Leipzig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE34RHaIN1o
- Symphony 5 / Philadelphia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbUDZN5zHo8
- Symphony 7 / Toronto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIQMuf8Z3MI
- Symphony 1 / Vienna, mono https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epbz1tyA3Z0
- Symphony 2 / Vienna, stereo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf00l3cG3mw


Also: Maderna recordings, likewise sometimes creative sadly often has poor sound,
but this 5 has OK sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIEfGLVe23w

Mitropoulos for example has some of the same feverish traits, but the sound tends to be poor. Here's a 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHBE14AHex8

and of course early Walter and Mengelberg's recordings whereas Fried's have really bad sound and Adler is less eccentric.

Kondrashin has an intense 9, which I like for its condensed style, almost classicist, less brooding and dragged out, making the work a less depressing experience than it can be at times https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRKuheTfHy0

Rögner has a very fine 3, where he does peculiar things in the 4th movement 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRS2qq2FKkw&list=OLAK5uy_kmR_nv0qt3uuyhmw7nu7v4ckuqTkYR5zE&index=16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOY8xa6Q6Po&list=OLAK5uy_kmR_nv0qt3uuyhmw7nu7v4ckuqTkYR5zE&index=17





Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 18, 2020, 08:20:10 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on April 18, 2020, 08:08:59 AM
You seem less interested in historical recordings, but for some very different Mahler performances compared to the previous suggestions (and probably in line with the degree of performance creativity of Mahler's own conducting age), try Scherchen - often frantic, exaggerated, sweeping, ebb-and-flow Mahler like you haven't heard it before:

- Symphony 6 / Leipzig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE34RHaIN1o
- Symphony 5 / Philadelphia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbUDZN5zHo8
- Symphony 7 / Toronto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIQMuf8Z3MI
- Symphony 1 / Vienna, mono https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epbz1tyA3Z0
- Symphony 2 / Vienna, stereo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf00l3cG3mw


Also: Maderna recordings, likewise sometimes creative sadly often has poor sound,
but this 5 has OK sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIEfGLVe23w

Mitropoulos for example has some of the same feverish traits, but the sound tends to be poor. Here's a 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHBE14AHex8

Kondrashin has an intense 9, which I like for its condensed style, almost classicist, less brooding and dragged out, making the work a less depressing experience than it can be at times https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRKuheTfHy0

Rögner has a very fine 3, where he does peculiar things in the 4th movement 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRS2qq2FKkw&list=OLAK5uy_kmR_nv0qt3uuyhmw7nu7v4ckuqTkYR5zE&index=16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOY8xa6Q6Po&list=OLAK5uy_kmR_nv0qt3uuyhmw7nu7v4ckuqTkYR5zE&index=17

I second Mitropoulos but for No 6 with the WDR Symphony Orchestra, Cologne - the most heart-rending performance I know. It has been available in the Great Conductors of the 20th Century series, not sure if it is still around.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on April 18, 2020, 08:20:46 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 18, 2020, 07:43:59 AM
I really wanted the Concertgebouw 3, the old one, but couldn't find it anywhere.

At that vintage Bernstein's NYPO Mahler 3 outshines all others.  Still my favourite nearly 60 years on.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 18, 2020, 10:54:26 AM
+ 1 for the Horenstein and Rögner 3rd - my favourites, followed by Haitink COA.

In the 4th symphony I cherish 4 old recordings, all in quite good sound:

Karel Sejna (Czech Philharmonic - extraordinary winds - with Maria Tauberova). From 1950, Supraphon studio recording.
Karl Rankl (Wiener Symphoniker, Sena Jurinac). Live, 1954. Excellent mono broadcast sound. Available on Guild.
Willem van Otterloo (Hague Philharmonic, recorded in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw, with Teresa Stich-Randall - fabulous). 1956, Decca-Philips-Epic.
Hans Swarowsky (Czech Philharmonic, Gerlinde Lorenz), 1972 Supraphon.

The Rankl and van Otterloo versions are my favourites, bar none. I recall with fondness the Solti Concertgebouw version (Sylvia Stahlman, 1961 Decca) but have not listened to it in decades, so maybe I'd change my mind about it, as I am not a fan of Solti in Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 18, 2020, 12:57:29 PM
Thoughts on Nagano's Mahler 3, anyone?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71pRIHliM0L._SS500_.jpg)

@MusicTurner, I do appreciate the suggestions, but I think I am less interested in historical recordings at this juncture, or at least pre-'50s. Mahler just doesn't sound good to my ears in mono, unfortunately. I suspect that will change, eventually. I have however been looking at a recording by Mitropoulos with the NYPO of the 6th, from the mid '50s:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71AkCEdxMsL._SL500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on April 18, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 18, 2020, 12:57:29 PM


@MusicTurner, I do appreciate the suggestions, but I think I am less interested in historical recordings at this juncture, or at least pre-'50s. Mahler just doesn't sound good to my ears in mono, unfortunately. I suspect that will change, eventually. I have however been looking at a recording by Mitropoulos with the NYPO of the 6th, from the mid '50s:

(...)

Yes. Note however that Rögner, Kondrashin and Scherchen 2 are stereos, Rögner has excellent sound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 18, 2020, 02:05:27 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on April 18, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Yes. Note however that Rögner, Kondrashin and Scherchen 2 are stereos, Rögner has excellent sound.

OK, thanks. My interest in them has now effectively doubled.  ;)

Honestly, though, I'd never heard of Rögner. And I didn't know Kondrashin did Mahler. I like his Shostakovich a lot, what I've heard of it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on April 18, 2020, 05:15:21 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 18, 2020, 12:57:29 PM
Thoughts on Nagano's Mahler 3, anyone?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71pRIHliM0L._SS500_.jpg)

@MusicTurner, I do appreciate the suggestions, but I think I am less interested in historical recordings at this juncture, or at least pre-'50s. Mahler just doesn't sound good to my ears in mono, unfortunately. I suspect that will change, eventually. I have however been looking at a recording by Mitropoulos with the NYPO of the 6th, from the mid '50s:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71AkCEdxMsL._SL500_.jpg)

I have Nagano's 8th and some of his Bruckner, and based on that, probably this is a good one. But I haven't heard this recording.

Mitropoulos is good but the sound can be, let's say, not great.   What I have is again not that precise recording, but this set. The 6th is from Cologne.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41LKmc29QzL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61yC9wcSItL.jpg)
Only purchase I ever made from a post in the Ugly CD Covers thread. :laugh:  My set is now listed by Amazon as completely unavailable.
This listing may be the same group of recordings, but Amazon has too little information to be sure.
[asin]B00008LLCD[/asin]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 18, 2020, 05:16:13 PM
Rögner, like Kegel, Konwitschny, Masur and Sanderling spent many years working in the former GDR (aka East Germany). For that reason they are not all that well known - except Masur and Sanderling in their late career, after their emigration to the West. They rank with the best conductors from Germany. Rögner's Bruckner cycle has good claims for a first spot (he conducts 4-9, nos 1-3 are given to other conductors).

Fear not, for that M3 recording is excellently played and recorded.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on April 18, 2020, 06:52:39 PM
Quote from: André on April 18, 2020, 05:16:13 PM
Rögner, like Kegel, Konwitschny, Masur and Sanderling spent many years working in the former GDR (aka East Germany). For that reason they are not all that well known - except Masur and Sanderling in their late career, after their emigration to the West. They rank with the best conductors from Germany. Rögner's Bruckner cycle has good claims for a first spot (he conducts 4-9, nos 1-3 are given to other conductors).

Fear not, for that M3 recording is excellently played and recorded.  :)

+1, some very fine Bruckner.

Roegner's orchestral Janacek is surprisingly bland however, maybe he didn't have enough time to prepare for that recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 07:27:42 AM
I finally went back to the 5th today. I started to listen to the Karajan/BPO recording, but I turned it off after the first movement. There appeared to be something missing, but I couldn't tell what. I know it's a controversial recording with more detractors than admirers, but I enjoyed it on first listen. Today, not so much.

So I started over with Boulez and Vienna. What a difference. For one, the VPO are just about the perfect orchestra for Mahler (alongside the Concertgebouw, IMO) though they came to his music relatively late—which raises the question, who was it who "whipped them into shape" to being one of the great Mahler orchestras? Are we to give full credit to Bernstein, there? But I digress. The real highlight of the recording is Boulez's signature clarity of textures. This is the only recording I've heard where I feel like I can hear everything that's going on at all times. I can follow the thread more easily. On the other hand, it seems he is a bit unflexible with tempi compared to any other conductor. He keeps it very steady, which might be seen as a fault. I enjoyed it, particularly in this symphony. I could see that kind of an approach being less effective in e.g. the 3rd.

Anyway, no qualms with calling this my favorite recording, but I feel like I owe it to myself to have a recording on hand that is the opposite, ie. very dramatic, dark and intense. I thought Karajan might be just that, but meh, it appears not. Still I'll keep it and give it another shot in the future. So I'm considering one of Tennstedt's recordings, the famous Barbirolli, maybe. Where does Rattle's BPO recording fall on the spectrum? It seems to have garnered good reviews; from what I can tell from samples it seems to be another detail-oriented reading like Boulez, with maybe a little more flexibility. Note I have Bernstein/NY and I do like it, especially the extremely beautiful Adagietto, but I have some problems with the two outer movements.

Anyway, the fifth was even better than I remembered it. Anyone else listening to the 5th lately?

PS. I ordered Boulez's recording of the 6th on the strength of this one. Excited to hear it!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 19, 2020, 07:56:07 AM
Have you heard the Bernstein/Vienna 5th from the 1980s (DG)?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 19, 2020, 09:28:43 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 19, 2020, 07:56:07 AM
Have you heard the Bernstein/Vienna 5th from the 1980s (DG)?
Today it's probably my favorite Mahler 5. On first hearing though, both the Scherzo and the Rondo-Finale sounded too slow, so this version might be an acquired taste.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 19, 2020, 09:34:23 AM
It's overall fairly slow but consistent, I'd say.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 19, 2020, 09:54:49 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 07:27:42 AM
I finally went back to the 5th today. I started to listen to the Karajan/BPO recording, but I turned it off after the first movement. There appeared to be something missing, but I couldn't tell what. I know it's a controversial recording with more detractors than admirers, but I enjoyed it on first listen. Today, not so much.

Karajan had no affinity for Mahler at all. He rebalanced all of the orchestration and it sounds like the work of a different (and significantly worse) composer. There's one place in the scherzo of the Sixth where he speeds up when Mahler says to slow down and slows down when Mahler says to speed up. He tries to make Mahler sound like Strauss, and I can think of few worse things to do to him.

Edit: I will say, though, that the worst Mahler 5 I've heard wasn't Karajan's, but Ozawa's with the BSO. I don't know how it went so wrong, but it surely did.

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 07:27:42 AMSo I started over with Boulez and Vienna. What a difference. For one, the VPO are just about the perfect orchestra for Mahler (alongside the Concertgebouw, IMO) though they came to his music relatively late—which raises the question, who was it who "whipped them into shape" to being one of the great Mahler orchestras? Are we to give full credit to Bernstein, there? But I digress. The real highlight of the recording is Boulez's signature clarity of textures. This is the only recording I've heard where I feel like I can hear everything that's going on at all times. I can follow the thread more easily. On the other hand, it seems he is a bit unflexible with tempi compared to any other conductor. He keeps it very steady, which might be seen as a fault. I enjoyed it, particularly in this symphony. I could see that kind of an approach being less effective in e.g. the 3rd.

I agree for the most part, just a quibble that Boulez's tempi are actually more flexible than most people seem to realize, but they aren't exaggerated to the same degree as a lot of conductors.

I once read someone say that in the Ninth's second movement he didn't differentiate at all between the three different tempo markings, but this is not at all true. I once checked with a metronome and the difference between the fastest and slowest was something on the order of 40 BPM! We should be careful not to confuse subjective perceptions of fast and slow with musical tempo.

Also, Boulez's Third is fantastic. Don't pass it up!

Re: The Vienna Philharmonic and Mahler, I think that (although before the Anschluss they performed his music under Mahler himself, Walter, and others), the modern tradition was probably developed at least in part by Bernstein.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 10:16:53 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 19, 2020, 09:54:49 AM
Karajan had no affinity for Mahler at all. He rebalanced all of the orchestration and it sounds like the work of a different (and significantly worse) composer. There's one place in the scherzo of the Sixth where he speeds up when Mahler says to slow down and slows down when Mahler says to speed up. He tries to make Mahler sound like Strauss, and I can think of few worse things to do to him.

I agree for the most part, just a quibble that Boulez's tempi are actually more flexible than most people seem to realize, but they aren't exaggerated to the same degree as a lot of conductors.

I once read someone say that in the Ninth's second movement he didn't differentiate at all between the three different tempo markings, but this is not at all true. I once checked with a metronome and the difference between the fastest and slowest was something on the order of 40 BPM! We should be careful not to confuse subjective perceptions of fast and slow with musical tempo.

Also, Boulez's Third is fantastic. Don't pass it up!

Re: The Vienna Philharmonic and Mahler, I think that (although before the Anschluss they performed his music under Mahler himself, Walter, and others), the modern tradition was probably developed at least in part by Bernstein.

What do you think about Karajan's live Mahler 9? I love it. I originally bought his 5th on the strength of that 9th, it doesn't live up to it at all.

Boulez's tempi are not totally inflexible, you're right. He just seemed much steadier than others in the 5th. I haven't heard any of his other Mahler records yet. But as you've mentioned it, I'll look out for the 3rd if I can find it cheap. Listening to samples now, it sounds quite good. I'm still curious about the Nagano 3rd, and I might pick up a copy while it's still available cheaply. I also ordered the Haitink/Berlin 3. The 3rd is a symphony I'm still working on trying to crack. I enjoy parts of it very much, but I seldom find myself in the mood to hear the whole thing. I only have the Bernstein/NY/Sony which I think is supposed to be one of the greatest. 

Quote from: Jo498 on April 19, 2020, 07:56:07 AM
Have you heard the Bernstein/Vienna 5th from the 1980s (DG)?

No I have not. I'm debating whether I want to get the Bernstein/DG box while it's still available for REALLY cheap, or whether to just seek out individual releases. The only DG Bernstein Mahler I have is the great Lieder disc with the VPO and Thomas Hampson.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 19, 2020, 10:34:19 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 10:16:53 AM
What do you think about Karajan's live Mahler 9? I love it. I originally bought his 5th on the strength of that 9th, it doesn't live up to it at all.

Probably unfairly, I haven't listened to that 9 because I hated the Mahler recordings I've heard from him so much (Fifth, Sixth, and the Kindertotenlieder, despite a fine performance from Ludwig). I really should listen to it at some point, and try to be as unbiased as I can.

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 10:16:53 AMBoulez's tempi are not totally inflexible, you're right. He just seemed much steadier than others in the 5th. I haven't heard any of his other Mahler records yet. But as you've mentioned it, I'll look out for the 3rd if I can find it cheap. Listening to samples now, it sounds quite good. I'm still curious about the Nagano 3rd, and I might pick up a copy while it's still available cheaply. I also ordered the Haitink/Berlin 3. The 3rd is a symphony I'm still working on trying to crack. I enjoy parts of it very much, but I seldom find myself in the mood to hear the whole thing. I only have the Bernstein/NY/Sony which I think is supposed to be one of the greatest.

I haven't heard Nagano's Third. I'm not too much of a fan of his conducting generally. I've enjoyed both of Haitink's recordings of the piece, as well as Boulez, Bernstein in his VPO video recording, and the live performance I attended at Tanglewood a few years ago led by Nelsons. Solti was my introduction to the work (as well as the Eighth), but I don't think I'd care for that version as much now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 19, 2020, 11:10:02 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 07:27:42 AM
I finally went back to the 5th today. I started to listen to the Karajan/BPO recording, but I turned it off after the first movement. There appeared to be something missing, but I couldn't tell what. I know it's a controversial recording with more detractors than admirers, but I enjoyed it on first listen. Today, not so much.

So I started over with Boulez and Vienna. What a difference. For one, the VPO are just about the perfect orchestra for Mahler (alongside the Concertgebouw, IMO) though they came to his music relatively late—which raises the question, who was it who "whipped them into shape" to being one of the great Mahler orchestras? Are we to give full credit to Bernstein, there? But I digress. The real highlight of the recording is Boulez's signature clarity of textures. This is the only recording I've heard where I feel like I can hear everything that's going on at all times. I can follow the thread more easily. On the other hand, it seems he is a bit unflexible with tempi compared to any other conductor. He keeps it very steady, which might be seen as a fault. I enjoyed it, particularly in this symphony. I could see that kind of an approach being less effective in e.g. the 3rd.

Anyway, no qualms with calling this my favorite recording, but I feel like I owe it to myself to have a recording on hand that is the opposite, ie. very dramatic, dark and intense. I thought Karajan might be just that, but meh, it appears not. Still I'll keep it and give it another shot in the future. So I'm considering one of Tennstedt's recordings, the famous Barbirolli, maybe. Where does Rattle's BPO recording fall on the spectrum? It seems to have garnered good reviews; from what I can tell from samples it seems to be another detail-oriented reading like Boulez, with maybe a little more flexibility. Note I have Bernstein/NY and I do like it, especially the extremely beautiful Adagietto, but I have some problems with the two outer movements.

Anyway, the fifth was even better than I remembered it. Anyone else listening to the 5th lately?

PS. I ordered Boulez's recording of the 6th on the strength of this one. Excited to hear it!

Avoid Barbirolli, then. I came to appreciate his interpretation, but at first I thought it overly slow, with blunted edges. Kubelik is intense and dramatic, but not dark. Different visions, different results. Farberman is very slow but extremely dark (love it). Barshai, Neumann and Haitink COA give it to you straight. I find them dramatic and intense. They may well be my favourites.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 19, 2020, 11:13:21 AM
Boulez is very scrupulous in having the oboe and cor anglais play hinaufziehend in the fourth movement, "O Mensch", of the Third. Look out for that if you get the recording, vers la flamme, because it's a rather spectacular effect.

Having said that, my go-to Mahler Third is Abbado's first recording with the VPO, not least for Jessye Norman's simply incomparable and breathtaking rendition of "O Mensch". One of the most beautiful vocal renditions of anything I know.

I'm not that much of a fan of the Fifth, but am glad you enjoyed PB's recording of it. You're absolutely right about the clarity of textures, which is a great advantage in thus work. FWIW, some years ago in the (now dormant) Spanish language Mahler forum, based on a "blind tasting" of the finale of the symphony, the Boulez recording "won" by a significant margin (followed by the often overlooked but superb Gary Bertini and then by Abbado with the CSO).

As for Boulez's Sixth with the VPO, you're in for a treat. The recording caused a minor sensation when it was first released in the nineties, and remains a high point of the conductor's whole Mahler cycle. The nadir, IMHO, is the Eighth, which was the last to be recorded; Boulez—along with other distinguished Mahlerians—never showed much enthusiasm for the work. The only "strange" thing about Boulez's Sixth is the prominence of the cowbells in the andante. One would thing a whole herd of Simmental cattle had been let loose in the Konzertverein  :D

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 11:35:26 AM
@Mahlerian, please do check out that recording. I think with complete honesty you will find something good in it. I haven't heard his studio 9th, which has its partisans, but I'm of the opinion that the live record is a stone cold classic.

@ritter, thanks for your post; I will keep that in mind for whenever I hear Boulez's 3rd. I'm so pumped to hear the 6th! It's en route to me now and I hope to hear it by the end of the week. Somehow I managed to land a copy for $1.29 on ebay, VG, with cheap shipping—I had to jump on it. Too bad about the 8th. I've just come around on it and I think it's brilliant music in every sense of the word. I had a feeling that Boulez's clarifying style would be just perfect for the detailed score. But you're not the first one I've heard rate it poorly (though I do have a couple of friends who swear by it).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 19, 2020, 12:11:01 PM
Gielen also has the Oboe effect in the 3rd, I don't remember how Nagano's woodwind players do it, unfortunately.

As for Bernstein/Vienna or more generally his DG recordings; some of these were among my first Mahler recordings (1,4,5,6) I got in the late 1980s, so they have a special place for me, even if as in the 1st and especially the 4th I am not totally convinced. I have not heard the others (because I eventually got the complete NY recordings and I am not enough of a fan to get also the DG complete). The originally issues have quite beautiful covers, so this might be a reason for some collectors to get them separately.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 19, 2020, 12:11:01 PM
Gielen also has the Oboe effect in the 3rd, I don't remember how Nagano's woodwind players do it, unfortunately.

As for Bernstein/Vienna or more generally his DG recordings; some of these were among my first Mahler recordings (1,4,5,6) I got in the late 1980s, so they have a special place for me, even if as in the 1st and especially the 4th I am not totally convinced. I have not heard the others (because I eventually got the complete NY recordings and I am not enough of a fan to get also the DG complete). The originally issues have quite beautiful covers, so this might be a reason for some collectors to get them separately.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You're right, those are beautiful covers, especially 5, 6 & 3. But the whole set for ~$20 is hard to pass up on, really hard. I already have the Bernstein/New York/Sony cycle, so that's the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on that deal right now. Maybe someday, in the future.

Another cycle I'm trying desperately not to buy is Kubelik/Bavarian RSO, also on DG. I don't *need* another Mahler cycle, but... I think this is the one I don't need. :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 19, 2020, 12:29:18 PM
The Bernstein/DG is probably worth it although you will always find partisans for either the NYPO or the Vienna? video recordings.

Kubelik also used to be really cheap. Most of it was also dirt cheap as singles on DG resonance/Musikfest (at a time when Bernstein/DG was whopping full price). Again I have about half of it (1,4-7) and some of it is very good. The 1st is probably my favorite among the 10-12 I have heard.
The sound is not that great, but it is very idiomatic. (I think one Israeli guy in a another forum used to claim that only Walter and Kubelik got the Klezmer inspired passages in the 1st and 5th right.)
But the best Kubelik Mahler I have heard is maybe the live LvdE on Audite with Kmentt and Baker
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 19, 2020, 12:45:10 PM
The Kubelik cycle could also be bought really cheap in this set, but it seems to be OOP now:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81qGUc9Dq%2BL._SL1500_.jpg)

The LvB cycle there is really interesting, with each symphony entrusted to a different orchestra. The Pastoral with the a Orchestre de Paris is delightful.

I concur with Jo498 regarding Kubelik's Mahler First, which was my first encounter with the work ( in a 2 LP set the also included Fischer-Diskau's fabulous Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen); it's a very, very good rendition. OTOH, I was very disappointed with the Seventh, which I found surprisingly (given the forces involved) sloppy in terms of orchestral execution, and wayward in terms of conception.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on April 19, 2020, 12:47:40 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 10:16:53 AM

No I have not. I'm debating whether I want to get the Bernstein/DG box while it's still available for REALLY cheap, or whether to just seek out individual releases. The only DG Bernstein Mahler I have is the great Lieder disc with the VPO and Thomas Hampson.

In that case you already have the best installment of the DG cycle. (I think it's the greatest recording of the Lieder ever made, in fact.)
I think the DG 2nd is among the best recordings of that symphony.
He used a boy soprano in the Fourth, I seem to be one of the few people who think that choice was not a mistake.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 19, 2020, 12:53:46 PM
Quote from: JBS on April 19, 2020, 12:47:40 PM
...
I think the DG 2nd is among the best recordings of that symphony.
...
I think that recording is marred by the tempo of the second movement. The andante moderato turns into a plodding adagio (at moments, I feel as if  the music is going to grind to a complete halt).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 02:13:39 PM
Quote from: JBS on April 19, 2020, 12:47:40 PM
In that case you already have the best installment of the DG cycle. (I think it's the greatest recording of the Lieder ever made, in fact.)
I think the DG 2nd is among the best recordings of that symphony.
He used a boy soprano in the Fourth, I seem to be one of the few people who think that choice was not a mistake.

I've been curious about that 4th; I don't think the choice to use a boy soprano is a mistake in and of itself, but I can see how it might lead to something bad. I do like his NYPO 4th with Reri Grist.

As for Kubelik I might collect the Audite releases if and when I find them for cheap. I found his Audite Mahler 1 at a record store in a budget box for $3 just before all this quarantining started going down. I'm sure that Das Lied is great too, but I have enough favorites already to not be seeking out alternatives for that work at the moment.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on April 20, 2020, 12:27:10 AM
A big +1 for Boulez's 3rd.  Also don't overlook the developing cycle by Vanska/Minnesota (1,2,4,5,6 so far) or that by Ivan Fischer/Budapest.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 02:50:26 AM
I don't have a recording of Totenfeier in my library. How much am I missing out? Ie. how much does it differ from the first movement of the Resurrection?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 20, 2020, 02:52:52 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 02:50:26 AM
I don't have a recording of Totenfeier in my library. How much am I missing out? Ie. how much does it differ from the first movement of the Resurrection?

It is interesting to hear but not essential, Boulez and others have recorded it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 20, 2020, 04:03:31 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 19, 2020, 02:13:39 PM
I've been curious about that 4th; I don't think the choice to use a boy soprano is a mistake in and of itself, but I can see how it might lead to something bad. I do like his NYPO 4th with Reri Grist.
I can't recommend the Bernstein NYPO 4th strongly enough, a wonderful performance, both by the orchestra and Ms. Grist. I'm not sure, either, whether the choice of a boy soprano in his DG 4th was a mistake in and of itself, but I find this particular performance to be cringeworthy. My personal favorite is the classic Szell reading with the Cleveland Orchestra and Judith Raskin, but Bernstein/Grist is a very close second.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 04:06:45 AM
Quote from: krummholz on April 20, 2020, 04:03:31 AM
I can't recommend the Bernstein NYPO 4th strongly enough, a wonderful performance, both by the orchestra and Ms. Grist. I'm not sure, either, whether the choice of a boy soprano in his DG 4th was a mistake in and of itself, but I find this particular performance to be cringeworthy. My personal favorite is the classic Szell reading with the Cleveland Orchestra and Judith Raskin, but Bernstein/Grist is a very close second.

My first two choices are the same as yours, though I will be revisiting the first 4th I ever heard, Reiner/Chicago, when it comes in the mail... I just ordered it.

Moreover, I'm afraid I must admit that my willpower has failed me, and I ordered this...:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DoJ-H7f0L._SL500_.jpg)

My philosophy is buy it now while it's cheap ($20, shipping included!—less than half the price of any other copy I could find on the internet), open it in a year. As I may have mentioned I'm trying to take a break from Lenny's Mahler, but I have long been curious about his DG cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 20, 2020, 04:55:41 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 02:50:26 AM
I don't have a recording of Totenfeier in my library. How much am I missing out? Ie. how much does it differ from the first movement of the Resurrection?

The orchestration is different (and shows how Mahler improved as an orchestrator over the course of his career), and there's a short section near the end of the development that was cut and replaced with a shorter passage.

Like Biffo said, it's interesting but far from essential. The final version is a distinct improvement, and I don't think Boulez's recording of Totenfeier is all that good in terms of performance, either (though I like his recording of the Second itself pretty well).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 09:18:05 AM
Thanks, I think I'll pass on Totenfeier until it turns up as filler on some CD or another.

I returned to Bernstein's Mahler 4 after spending a lot of time with other recordings (Szell/Cleveland, Klemperer/Philharmonia, Levi/Atlanta) and I think I can say for certain that it's my favorite. I do have the Reiner/Chicago CD en route to me now, and I'm also considering getting the Maazel/Vienna. I'm not crazy about Maazel normally, but I have heard great things about that Mahler 4.

Anyone else as crazy about the 4th as I am? It was my introduction to Mahler, and my opinion on it tends to waver, but right now it seems I'm hooked.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 21, 2020, 10:11:09 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 09:18:05 AM
...
Anyone else as crazy about the 4th as I am? It was my introduction to Mahler, and my opinion on it tends to waver, but right now it seems I'm hooked.
My favourite Mahler symphony by a wide margin (followed by the Ninth and then, probably, the Sixth). For me, it was also my first exposure to Mahler (at age 6 or so--just a couple of years ago, that is  ;)). There's a restraint--or reining in of excesses--that makes this piece very "classical" and very alluring to me, all four movements. But it has one short passage in the first movement (I believe it's marked "10" in the score, fliessend ohne Hast, just 16 measures or so), in which the flutes play a "bucolic" theme, underpinned by warbling figures of the strings and with interjections of the clarinet and bassoon, which is pure magic. The scoring in this passage is paired down to the minimum, and there's a transparency in the music which is admirable and highlights some wonderful counterpoint. One of my favourite musical passages ever--not only by Mahler.

Favourite recording: Abbado's first attempt with the VPO, one of the great Mahler recordings of all time IMHO. And the unexpected use of a mezzo in the final lied works wonderfully. Frederica von Stade is both childlike and warm at the same time. Really beautiful singing.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616S4Xe756L._SX425_.jpg)
Even the cover is great  ;)

A recording I didn't like at all: Michael Gielen's on Hänssler (form the otherwise admirable cycle). To me it's like a caricature of what an "objective" interpretation should be, and soprano Christine Whittlesey in the last movement sounds like a characer out of that 1930s movie serial The Little Rascals (a.k.a. Our Gang)--not a glimose of any heavenly innonce there!  ::) I read some guy likes this particular recording. À chacun son goût.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 21, 2020, 10:49:44 AM
I think the Gielen Mahler 4th is pretty good but severely marred by the soprano and therefore one of the overall less successful of his Mahler. (Admittedly, I have not heard any of his Mahler Lieder or LvdE).
My favorite Mahler 4th is Abranavel/Davrath (Vanguard) although I have not heard several of the usual suspects such as Stade/Abbado or Szell.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 21, 2020, 10:11:09 AM
My favourite Mahler symphony by a wide margin (followed by the Ninth and then, probably, the Sixth). For me, it was also my first exposure to Mahler (at age 6 or so--just a couple of years ago, that is  ;)). There's a restraint--or reining in of excesses--that makes this piece very "classical" and very alluring to me, all four movements. But it has one short passage in the first movement (I believe it's marked "10" in the score, fliessend ohne Hast, just 16 measures or so), in which the flutes play a "bucolic" theme, underpinned by warbling figures of the strings and with interjections of the clarinet and bassoon, which is pure magic. The scoring in this passage is paired down to the minimum, and there's a transparency in the music which is admirable and highlights some wonderful counterpoint. One of my favourite musical passages ever--not only by Mahler.

Favourite recording: Abbado's first attempt with the VPO, one of the great Mahler recordings of all time IMHO. And the unexpected use of a mezzo in the final lied works wonderfully. Frederica von Stade is both childlike and warm at the same time. Really beautiful singing.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/616S4Xe756L._SX425_.jpg)
Even the cover is great  ;)

A recording I didn't like at all: Michael Gielen's on Hänssler (form the otherwise admirable cycle). To me it's like a caricature of what an "objective" interpretation should be, and soprano Christine Whittlesey in the last movement sounds like a characer out of that 1930s movie serial The Little Rascals (a.k.a. Our Gang)--not a glimose of any heavenly innonce there!  ::) I read some guy likes this particular recording. À chacun son goût.  :)

Wow, nice! It seems it's not the favorite of a lot of Mahlerians, with some even saying it's one of his worst or "least Mahler-like". I couldn't disagree more.

You've inspired me to listen and read along w/ the score again to find that moment you've mentioned, which I will probably do tomorrow. I have the Levi/Atlanta which also features Ms. von Stade and she does deliver a nice performance, yes, though my copy is marred with a glitch which makes it unlistenable. But that Abbado/Vienna looks great. I'm going to check it out. I'm trying to hear more of Abbado's Mahler. Seems folks either love him or hate him.

Thoughts on the Karajan Mahler 4, anyone?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 21, 2020, 12:52:27 PM
Abbado is a fine Mahler conductor, but not among the best for my taste. I feel he keeps the music at arm's length - musical distancing, so to speak. I recall liking that 4th symphony very much, but it's just too long ago for a firm opinion - had it on cassette, way back when...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 01:50:20 PM
Abbado seems to divide opinion, both in Mahler in elsewhere. Some seem to rate him as a favorite while others see him as no more than a fraud. I have two CDs of his Mahler: the 7th w/ the Chicago Symphony from his original cycle, and the 6th from his later cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic. Both are quite good but I find myself questioning what exactly is Abbado's vision for Mahler. I like his 6th because it's less histrionic than my other recording, Bernstein/NYPO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2020, 02:42:43 PM
Quote from: ritter on April 21, 2020, 10:11:09 AM
A recording I didn't like at all: Michael Gielen's on Hänssler (form the otherwise admirable cycle). To me it's like a caricature of what an "objective" interpretation should be, and soprano Christine Whittlesey in the last movement sounds like a characer out of that 1930s movie serial The Little Rascals (a.k.a. Our Gang)--not a glimose of any heavenly innonce there!  ::) I read some guy likes this particular recording. À chacun son goût.  :)



I agree, Whittlesey is a ghastly soloist. Ruins the entire performance. I'm not a fan of Gielen's cycle, at all, but it is the Fourth that I really hate. It is the low point.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2020, 02:47:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 01:50:20 PM
Abbado seems to divide opinion, both in Mahler in elsewhere.

Count me among the naysayers. Although von Stade is one of my favorite mezzos (heard her do the Fourth live with Maazel and the Cleveland) I'm not a fan of Abbado's Fourth.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 02:52:40 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2020, 02:47:23 PM
Count me among the naysayers. Although von Stade is one of my favorite mezzos (heard her do the Fourth live with Maazel and the Cleveland) I'm not a fan of Abbado's Fourth.

Sarge

Should I take it from your dislike of both Gielen and Abbado that you favor the more "hot blooded" school of Mahlerian conducting, Sarge? Bernstein, Tennstedt, Horenstein, maybe?

Edit: going back to your post a few pages back with your top three of each symphony, it looks like this isn't far from the truth!  :)

How would you describe Maazel's Mahler? It seems you're one of the few champions of his cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 21, 2020, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: André on April 21, 2020, 12:52:27 PM
Abbado is a fine Mahler conductor, but not among the best for my taste. I feel he keeps the music at arm's length - musical distancing, so to speak. I recall liking that 4th symphony very much, but it's just too long ago for a firm opinion - had it on cassette, way back when...

I've heard nothing but very positive things from performers who have performed under Abbado on Mahler.  It might be the sort of thing where the performance doesn't fully translate to a recording.  But several players I know said his interpretation (or at least the experience of it) was a phenomenal and unforgettable experience.  Listeners don't always experience the same gravitas as the performers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on April 21, 2020, 05:14:43 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 11:35:51 AM


Thoughts on the Karajan Mahler 4, anyone?

I very much like Karajan's Fifth and Sixth recordings, but have no remembrance of his Fourth beyond knowing I have it...so it must have struck me as being on a much lesser plane.

Abbado conducted both one of my favorite Mahler recordings (7th with Berlin) and my least favorite Mahler recording (2nd with Vienna).  Not every conductor can be that hit or miss! Although now that I think of it, Zinman accomplished the same thing: his 9th is my favorite recording of that symphony, but I never want to hear his 10th again.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 21, 2020, 09:40:43 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2020, 02:42:43 PM


I agree, Whittlesey is a ghastly soloist. Ruins the entire performance. I'm not a fan of Gielen's cycle, at all, but it is the Fourth that I really hate. It is the low point.

Sarge

;D I'm glad to see we're still in lockstep re: Most of Mahler and this recording in particular.

My favorite remains Haitink IV; The recent Vanska is very good, too. Both are propelled by very nicely suited voices!

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/01/gustav-mahler-symphony-no4-part-3.html

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JVk6zaFNh9Y/Wkuf1KqpOdI/AAAAAAAAJ-4/bdVEsvlUoNYsvpPvlAErVcGE5cBJtJDAwCLcBGAs/s1600/Gustav_Mahler_4_3.png) (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2018/01/gustav-mahler-symphony-no4-part-3.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 21, 2020, 11:40:05 PM
Quote from: JBS on April 21, 2020, 05:14:43 PM

Abbado conducted...my least favorite Mahler recording (2nd with Vienna).  Not every conductor can be that hit or miss!
I don't know the Vienna recording, but found his first approach (with Chicago) utterly undistinguished. Perhaps good old Claudio didn't have much affinity with the work.

Now that I think of it, I have another recording of the Second conducted by Abbado (from Lucerne, included in "Claudio Abbado Symphony Edition"), but haven't listened to it. Hopefully,  "third time lucky" applies here.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 22, 2020, 04:27:26 AM
Quote from: JBS on April 21, 2020, 05:14:43 PMAbbado conducted both one of my favorite Mahler recordings (7th with Berlin) and my least favorite Mahler recording (2nd with Vienna).  Not every conductor can be that hit or miss! Although now that I think of it, Zinman accomplished the same thing: his 9th is my favorite recording of that symphony, but I never want to hear his 10th again.

Well, Zinman did use the horrific Carpenter "completion" of the Tenth, which is enough to make any recording unlistenable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2020, 06:41:01 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 02:52:40 PM
Should I take it from your dislike of both Gielen and Abbado that you favor the more "hot blooded" school of Mahlerian conducting, Sarge? Bernstein, Tennstedt, Horenstein, maybe?

In general, yes, I prefer emotional heat, even exaggerated heat, although I enjoy a variety of interpretive styles, e.g., my favorite Sixths are Solti and Bernstein (three hammer blows!), Chailly (slow and grim), Szell (classically restrained until the shattering final appearance of fate) and Karajan (sheer beauty); five very different approaches.



Quote from: vers la flamme on April 21, 2020, 02:52:40 PM
How would you describe Maazel's Mahler? It seems you're one of the few champions of his cycle.

Detail driven and controlling (like Klemperer you feel a fist conducting) and mannered (often the music doesn't flow naturally but is distinctly guided), given to slow tempos and powerful climaxes. That reads like a series of negatives, but I love this quirkiness. In his Vienna cycle the only disappointment is his Fifth. He rushes the chorale, ruining the second movement for me. (I confess I prefer conductors in this symphony who make a meal of that moment, like Dohnányi, Chailly, Neumann, Boulez, Kubelik, Solti; dislike especially conductors who I assumed would shine here but fail to deliver, like Bernstein and Maazel and so many others. I bought 18 Fifths before I finally found a wholly satisfying chorale: Neumann/Leipzig.) If you sample just one Maazel performance, please make it the Fourth with Kathleen Battle. Simply gorgeous.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 21, 2020, 09:40:43 PM
;D I'm glad to see we're still in lockstep re: Most of Mahler and this recording in particular.

Yes we are usually in agreement (other than about Maazel, that is  ;) )

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 22, 2020, 08:18:21 AM
Just listened to the 8th with Kubelik (the commercial performance on DG).

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81d3%2BDA2CwL._AC_SL425_.jpg)

Superb, almost ideal even as I quibble with a few aspects of the performance and recording. I see that Jens likes this version very much too. Funny that we feel so differently about Haitink in this work. Oh well, that's the whole point of listening, comparing and choosing  ;D.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 22, 2020, 11:08:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2020, 06:41:01 AM
In general, yes, I prefer emotional heat, even exaggerated heat, although I enjoy a variety of interpretive styles, e.g., my favorite Sixths are Solti and Bernstein (three hammer blows!), Chailly (slow and grim), Szell (classically restrained until the shattering final appearance of fate) and Karajan (sheer beauty); five very different approaches.



Detail driven and controlling (like Klemperer you feel a fist conducting) and mannered (often the music doesn't flow naturally but is distinctly guided), given to slow tempos and powerful climaxes. That reads like a series of negatives, but I love this quirkiness. In his Vienna cycle the only disappointment is his Fifth. He rushes the chorale, ruining the second movement for me. (I confess I prefer conductors in this symphony who make a meal of that moment, like Dohnányi, Chailly, Neumann, Boulez, Kubelik, Solti; dislike especially conductors who I assumed would shine here but fail to deliver, like Bernstein and Maazel and so many others. I bought 18 Fifths before I finally found a wholly satisfying chorale: Neumann/Leipzig.) If you sample just one Maazel performance, please make it the Fourth with Kathleen Battle. Simply gorgeous.

Yes we are usually in agreement (other than about Maazel, that is  ;) )

Sarge

I just bought two 4ths (Reiner/Chicago & Bernstein/DG as part of the cycle); otherwise I'd pick up the Maazel right away. It's available dirt cheap and I want to see what all the fuss is about. But it's on the list of 4ths to check out, for sure, along with Abbado/Vienna.

I'm thinking about getting the Szell 6th too. I love his 4th and I've heard his 6th is just as good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2020, 12:20:46 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 22, 2020, 11:08:32 AM
I just bought two 4ths (Reiner/Chicago & Bernstein/DG as part of the cycle); otherwise I'd pick up the Maazel right away. It's available dirt cheap and I want to see what all the fuss is about. But it's on the list of 4ths to check out, for sure, along with Abbado/Vienna.

I'm thinking about getting the Szell 6th too. I love his 4th and I've heard his 6th is just as good.

I think so but I may be prejudiced: I was in the audience for the Saturday concert in 1967. My first M6. I don't know if that is the 6th that made it to the recording but I assume all three performances that week were uniformly great.

Edit: I don't know the Reiner 4th but I do dislike Bernstein's DG performance. Cannot stand boy singers.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 22, 2020, 12:25:24 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2020, 12:20:46 PM
I think so but I may be prejudiced: I was in the audience for the Saturday concert in 1967. My first M6. I don't know if that is the 6th that made it to the recording but I assume all three performances that week were uniformly great.

Sarge

Wow, that's great. I didn't even know it was a live record. Must have been a hell of a time!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 22, 2020, 12:33:50 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 22, 2020, 12:25:24 PM
Wow, that's great. I didn't even know it was a live record. Must have been a hell of a time!

It was. I hadn't heard the Sixth before that evening. Didn't know what to expect. I was emotionally devastated by it. I remember thinking after that shattering A minor chord and the fading out, Why in the world is everyone applauding? Life has just ended!

Forgive me, I was only 18  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on April 22, 2020, 12:53:23 PM
Quote from: ritter on April 21, 2020, 11:40:05 PM
I don't know the Vienna recording, but found his first approach (with Chicago) utterly undistinguished. Perhaps good old Claudio didn't have much affinity with the work.

Now that I think of it, I have another recording of the Second conducted by Abbado (from Lucerne, included in "Claudio Abbado Symphony Edition"), but haven't listened to it. Hopefully,  "third time lucky" applies here.  ;)
If I have the chronology right, the Vienna was his first, the Chicago his second attempt.  I liked the Chicago, in fact.  The Lucerne recording....I will keep my mouth shut on that one so as not to bias your ears.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 22, 2020, 04:48:56 PM
How many full Mahler cycles has Abbado recorded? At least two three, right? The first one w/ various orchestras (Chicago, Vienna, Berlin...?), a later cycle of live recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic (during or after his tenure as music director...?), plus the Lucerne Festival video cycle. Is there more?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on April 22, 2020, 05:10:21 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 22, 2020, 04:48:56 PM
How many full Mahler cycles has Abbado recorded? At least two three, right? The first one w/ various orchestras (Chicago, Vienna, Berlin...?), a later cycle of live recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic (during or after his tenure as music director...?), plus the Lucerne Festival video cycle. Is there more?

I think the Lucerne Second is the one used to complete the Berlin cycle. But I may be wrong. I didn't know he had done a video cycle.

As for video cycles, the two installments of Chailly's Gewandhaus on Accentus that I have are very good (2 and 8).  I think that cycle is complete.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 22, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: JBS on April 22, 2020, 05:10:21 PM
I think the Lucerne Second is the one used to complete the Berlin cycle. But I may be wrong. I didn't know he had done a video cycle.

As for video cycles, the two installments of Chailly's Gewandhaus on Accentus that I have are very good (2 and 8).  I think that cycle is complete.

Now that you mention it, I don't know whether the Abbado/Lucerne videos covers the whole cycle. There's this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Lk0bYLR7L._SL500_.jpg)

... and also a 9th. Can't seem to find an 8th.

And you're right, the Berlin cycle includes the 2nd with Lucerne. Did he not record the 2nd in Berlin during that time?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 22, 2020, 11:43:45 PM
Quote from: JBS on April 22, 2020, 12:53:23 PM
If I have the chronology right, the Vienna was his first, the Chicago his second attempt.  I liked the Chicago, in fact.  The Lucerne recording....I will keep my mouth shut on that one so as not to bias your ears.
Not that it's of any importance, but the CSO Abbado Resurrection (with Marilyn Horne and Carol Neblett) was his first studio recording, from 1977. The Vienna recording (with Cheryl Studer and Waltraut Meier) is from the ca. 1994.

There is a much earlie bootleg recording with the a very young Abbado leading the VPO, and vocalists Stefania Woytowicz and Lucretia West, live from Salzburg in 1965.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 23, 2020, 12:40:37 AM
The 70s/80s "Feather covers" lacks the 8th, I think. It's Chicago in 1,2,5,6,7 and Vienna in 3,4,9 and 10 (adagio). I think this 9/10 is also already a live recording.
For some reason (maybe to represent the Berliner with more than one symphony?) the DG Klimt cover box replaces 1 and 5 with Berlin and 2 with Vienna and adds the Berlin 8th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 23, 2020, 01:54:27 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 22, 2020, 04:48:56 PM
How many full Mahler cycles has Abbado recorded? At least two three, right? The first one w/ various orchestras (Chicago, Vienna, Berlin...?), a later cycle of live recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic (during or after his tenure as music director...?), plus the Lucerne Festival video cycle. Is there more?

Funny you should ask. (As I'm working on my Mahler Cycle Survey.)

The answer is: 1

The second cycle overlaps with the first (1, 5, 8 )
and the third cycle (Eurovision) lacks an 8th, overlaps with the second (2), and needs a 9th from Accentus to be even reasonably complete.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 23, 2020, 03:35:55 AM
A friend of mine once interviewed Abbado for a local magazine, and in that conversation the conductor didn't even remember that the (live) Eighth had been released to complete the second cycle. It seemed clear that Abbado didn't care much for the work... ;)

IIRC, he was going to perform it in Lucerne in 2012, but a couple of months before the concert the program was changed "for artistic reason" to the Mozart Requiem and some other piece. Again, friends  mine had bought tickets, and were quite disillusioned. They also had tickets that summer for Parsifal in Bayreuth, and when I told them the festival had cancelled those performances "for artistic reasons", and would offer Die Fledemaus instead, for a split second they thought I was being serious.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 23, 2020, 04:14:55 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 23, 2020, 03:35:55 AM

IIRC, he was going to perform it in Lucerne in 2012, but a couple of months before the concert the program was changed "for artistic reason" to the Mozart Requiem and some other piece. Again, friends  mine had bought tickets, and were quite disillusioned. They also had tickets that summer for Parsifal in Bayreuth, and when I told them the festival had cancelled those performances "for artistic reasons", and would offer Die Fledemaus instead, for a split second they thought I was being serious.  :D

Oh, come on; that's hardly fair to Mozart.  ;D

Thanks for clarification, everyone. I was looking at the DG "Klimt cover" cycle as well as the later "Abbado Mahler" DG cycle, just out of curiosity, because I think Abbado's Mahler is worthy of greater representation in my library. But I'll stick with single issues for now.

I'm getting hooked on Lenny's Mahler recordings again. The NY/Sony cycle is what I imprinted on when I first got into Mahler about this time last year, and no one does it like him. I'm listening to his New York 5th now and I think it's better than some folks give it credit for.

Thoughts on Bernstein's London 2nd for Sony/Columbia, w/ Janet Baker & Sheila Armstrong? I didn't know it existed until now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 23, 2020, 05:45:40 AM
Cross-post from "What are you listening 2 now"...:

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 23, 2020, 05:44:57 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BVN-YO6XL._SL500_.jpg)

Gustav Mahler: Symphony No.10 in F-sharp major. Simon Rattle, Berlin Philharmonic.

I had put on the 6th, a recording with Boulez & the Vienna Philharmonic that I'd just gotten, but I got about halfway through the first movement & realized that I'm just not in the mood for the 6th (still). I will try again in the morning. I just can't seem to make it through the 6th & the 9th lately. I don't know what it is?

... So instead I decided to put on a work that I have long had trouble with—the Mahler 10th, here presented in the so-called Cooke III performance edition. Rattle clearly knows this score inside and out & from time to time I decide to give this recording another chance. I can never seem to wrap my head around it all the way, even the roughly "completed" Adagio tends to lose me. I don't hear the same cohesion that Mahler had come to master in his late music; think the Andante of the 9th, or anything from Das Lied.

Someone help me figure out what I'm missing. Maybe I ought to hear another recording... Rattle/Bournemouth? Sanderling/Berlin Symphony? Wigglesworth/BBC Wales? The latter I used to always see at my local record store before they closed their doors for the pandemic, and I would always pass it up. I think when they reopen I'll go down there and pick it up right away.

Is there any good reading material out there about Mahler's 10th? Specifically the Deryck Cooke version as that seems to be the one to get to know (first).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 23, 2020, 06:45:13 AM
The Adagio that opens the Tenth is a lot like the first movement of the Ninth in terms of form. It's based on a main recurring theme in F# major (that we first hear at the entry of the full orchestra, after the introduction in the violas) and a subsidiary theme in F# minor (in that introduction). The tension gradually builds until the sudden outburst in A-flat minor and the 9(?) note dissonance that follows, after which the primary theme brings the movement to a gentle close.

That whole trajectory is important, because a lot of it is revisited in the Finale, which brings back the introductory theme, as well as the climactic dissonant chord. But before that, we have two scherzos and the Purgatorio.

The first scherzo is buoyant and playful, the second dark and demonic. It is the Purgatorio which bridges this gap and introduces the minor third motif which will dominate the rest of the symphony.

(And because the form and material were completely worked out by Mahler in his draft, these details will apply to any version.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 24, 2020, 05:24:40 AM
The Purgatorio is the one movement I can't quite wrap my head around... it's probably the shortest single movement in all of Mahler's symphonies (possible exception: Urlicht) and it is built on sharp contrasts to a degree rare in Mahler. Some writers have speculated that he would have scrapped it in the final version and ended up with a four-movement symphony, but the motives introduced there become so important later on - especially in the Finale - that I can't see that. I wonder if he might have expanded it instead... yet I think I read that he had already scored a fair amount of it, so even that seems doubtful. It's an enigma, for sure.

Edit: the Morning Bells movement of the 3rd might be as short, too... maybe shorter than Urlicht, at least in performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 24, 2020, 05:47:34 AM
Quote from: krummholz on April 24, 2020, 05:24:40 AM
The Purgatorio is the one movement I can't quite wrap my head around... it's probably the shortest single movement in all of Mahler's symphonies (possible exception: Urlicht) and it is built on sharp contrasts to a degree rare in Mahler. Some writers have speculated that he would have scrapped it in the final version and ended up with a four-movement symphony, but the motives introduced there become so important later on - especially in the Finale - that I can't see that. I wonder if he might have expanded it instead... yet I think I read that he had already scored a fair amount of it, so even that seems doubtful. It's an enigma, for sure.

Edit: the Morning Bells movement of the 3rd might be as short, too... maybe shorter than Urlicht, at least in performance.

The movement has a recapitulation indicated by 'Da Capo'. In the introduction to his performing version Deryck Cooke writes 'The Da Capo... would no doubt have been realised with a varied and possibly extended repeat , rather than with an exact one but nothing can be done about that'

I have always found this movement odd and thought Mahler might have eventually left it out. Levine's recording is the only one I have heard that makes it sound convincing for me though I am not sure why.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 24, 2020, 06:46:07 AM
I liked the Purgatorio. I actually found it more interesting than the scherzi, probably because of Mahler's own extant orchestration.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 24, 2020, 08:05:43 AM
I love the Adagio of the Tenth Symphony as a stand-alone piece
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 24, 2020, 08:19:40 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 24, 2020, 06:46:07 AM
I liked the Purgatorio. I actually found it more interesting than the scherzi, probably because of Mahler's own extant orchestration.

Mahler did start orchestrating the first Scherzo as well, but the draft is clearly not very complete. The Purgatorio, likewise, is actually only orchestrated for the first few pages.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 24, 2020, 08:28:53 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 24, 2020, 08:05:43 AM
I love the Adagio of the Tenth Symphony as a stand-alone piece

So do I, that's how I got to know it. It came as the fill-up on the fourth LP side of Kubelik's recording of Symphony No 6. At some point, can't remember when but possibly around the time it was first issued, I borrowed Ormandy's recording of the completion from a record library but it was many years before I bought a complete version of my own (possibly Rattle/Berlin PO).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 24, 2020, 10:32:25 AM
The Adagio is the only movement that Bernstein ever recorded, I believe, because it's the only one that he felt was in final form at the time of Mahler's death. I think I read that it is the only one that he had completed in full score, and that seems to be borne out by the three performances I've heard, or maybe four (Ormandy, Levine, Rattle... maybe Sinopoli? I'll have to check)

It is definitely beautiful, but I agree with Deryck Cooke (I think it was) who said that trying to glean Mahler's intentions for the 10th Symphony on the basis of the Adagio and Purgatorio alone would be like trying to understand the 5th going entirely from the first movement and the Adagietto. The Finale of the 10th, in particular, contains some of the most strikingly beautiful music (IMO) that he ever composed. I've always wondered if that movement would have signaled a sea change in his music going forward, or would have proven to be just a singular example of a different, somewhat simpler style. Mahler's music overall became more chromatic in his later years and some have speculated that he might have broken out of tonality soon after Schoenberg did, had he lived. Obviously, we'll never know.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 24, 2020, 10:58:36 AM
I just listened to the Haitink and Rattle recordings of the 10 Adagio. Both with the Berlin Philharmonic.

I can't help but think that Rattle brings out the dark and light better, notably with those shrieking oboe and flute choirs, and those low stretched-out double-bass notes. Haitink is making a beautiful narrative. Rattle delivers despair. Obviously very few conductors have spent that much time with this work as Rattle.

I used to have the Rattle / Bournemouth LPs in the eighties.

Alas I cannot help but think the rest of nr 10 is incomplete, it's mostly bare bones, which is not what Mahler is about. It also gets a little too close to a musical demonstration of his psychic state at the time, rather than music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 24, 2020, 02:26:52 PM
Quote from: Herman on April 24, 2020, 10:58:36 AM
I just listened to the Haitink and Rattle recordings of the 10 Adagio. Both with the Berlin Philharmonic.

I can't help but think that Rattle brings out the dark and light better, notably with those shrieking oboe and flute choirs, and those low stretched-out double-bass notes. Haitink is making a beautiful narrative. Rattle delivers despair. Obviously very few conductors have spent that much time with this work as Rattle.

I used to have the Rattle / Bournemouth LPs in the eighties.

Alas I cannot help but think the rest of nr 10 is incomplete, it's mostly bare bones, which is not what Mahler is about. It also gets a little too close to a musical demonstration of his psychic state at the time, rather than music.

Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that Rattle is delivering the Adagio as the first movement of a great symphony, while Haitink is performing it as a standalone piece? Just a thought, I haven't heard the Haitink.

I would agree that the 10th sounds totally incomplete to my ears. People like to point to the fact that every bar is accounted for by Mahler's hand, but that doesn't mean as much to me as some would have it. Still worth hearing, for sure. Some people even say this is their favorite Mahler symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on April 24, 2020, 03:52:06 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 24, 2020, 02:26:52 PM
Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that Rattle is delivering the Adagio as the first movement of a great symphony, while Haitink is performing it as a standalone piece? Just a thought, I haven't heard the Haitink.

I would agree that the 10th sounds totally incomplete to my ears. People like to point to the fact that every bar is accounted for by Mahler's hand, but that doesn't mean as much to me as some would have it. Still worth hearing, for sure. Some people even say this is their favorite Mahler symphony.

I think the best Adagio as a stand alone movement is the one Gergiev did for his LSO cycle.  He gets the emotion of the movement better than anyone else. (I would call it anguish, not despair.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 24, 2020, 04:18:39 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 24, 2020, 02:26:52 PMI would agree that the 10th sounds totally incomplete to my ears. People like to point to the fact that every bar is accounted for by Mahler's hand, but that doesn't mean as much to me as some would have it. Still worth hearing, for sure. Some people even say this is their favorite Mahler symphony.

It is structurally complete, and unless Mahler changed his normal procedures, what we have contains the primary argument of the Tenth as it would have been if he had lived another year or two. What would have happened is that he would have filled things in, fleshed out the instrumentation, and so forth, but what survives doesn't require any guesswork on the part of editors regarding form or melodic development or (mostly) harmony.

The manuscript is available online for anyone to view.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.10_(Mahler%2C_Gustav)

(Under the "Sketches and Drafts" tab)


I don't think of it as a completed Mahler work like the other 9 (or 10, if you count Das Lied), but what we do have is valuable and shows that the composer was still at the height of his creative powers until the very end.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 24, 2020, 11:56:34 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 24, 2020, 02:26:52 PM
Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that Rattle is delivering the Adagio as the first movement of a great symphony, while Haitink is performing it as a standalone piece? Just a thought, I haven't heard the Haitink.


Hard to say, since I tend to listen to both as standalone. The funny thing of course (same with Bruckner 9) is that one's experience and investment in this piece (the Adagio) has been shaped by the historical fact that it's usually performed as a standalone piece. The end with the ever higher ever more etherical strings seems to encourage that perception.

There are two differences between Rattle and Haitink vis a vis the 10 Adagio. Rattle is a fierce advocate of nr 10, in Cooke's completion. Haitink has to my knowledge never performed the whole symphony and my guess is he only recorded the Adagio as a way to fill out LPs (Concertgebouw) or CDs (Berlin). From 1985 onwards Haitink (that makes the second half of his career) has been steadily de-experimenting and shrinking his repertoire. Rattle went to Berlin with the explicit agenda to play wild stuff. Rattle recorded the entire symphony nr 10 with the Bournemouth, Birmingham and Berlin. No conductor has performed the Cooke version as frequently as Rattle.

I have a recollection (I tried checking this online) that the only time Rattle conducted the Concertgebouw was in 1986, with this symphony, and after this concert the orchestra said "Don't call us, we'll call you," and consequently didn't. Amsterdam likes its Mahler a certain way. After this Rattle has either conducted the Rotterdam Philharmonic or visited Amsterdam with the LSO or Berlin Ph. It's one of the big missed opportunities in the music world.

The other difference is the EMI recording of Nr 10 with the Berlin is a live recording, which may account for the greater rethorical liveliness.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 25, 2020, 12:52:15 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 24, 2020, 11:56:34 PM
Hard to say, since I tend to listen to both as standalone. The funny thing of course (same with Bruckner 9) is that one's experience and investment in this piece (the Adagio) has been shaped by the historical fact that it's usually performed as a standalone piece. The end with the ever higher ever more etherical strings seems to encourage that perception.

There are two differences between Rattle and Haitink vis a vis the 10 Adagio. Rattle is a fierce advocate of nr 10, in Cooke's completion. Haitink has to my knowledge never performed the whole symphony and my guess is he only recorded the Adagio as a way to fill out LPs (Concertgebouw) or CDs (Berlin). From 1985 onwards Haitink (that makes the second half of his career) has been steadily de-experimenting and shrinking his repertoire. Rattle went to Berlin with the explicit agenda to play wild stuff. Rattle recorded the entire symphony nr 10 with the Bournemouth, Birmingham and Berlin. No conductor has performed the Cooke version as frequently as Rattle.

I have a recollection (I tried checking this online) that the only time Rattle conducted the Concertgebouw was in 1984 or something, with this symphony, and after this concert the orchestra said "Don't call us, we'll call you," and consequently didn't. Amsterdam likes its Mahler a certain way. After this Rattle has either conducted the Rotterdam Philharmonic or visited Amsterdam with the LSO or Berlin Ph. It's one of the big missed opportunities in the music world.

The other difference is the EMI recording of Nr 10 with the Berlin is a live recording, which may account for the greater rethorical liveliness.

Some interesting thoughts there on the Concertgebouw. While he was their Chief Conductor Chailly recorded a Mahler cycle but for the completed No 10 he used the Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin. Presumably the Concertgebouw weren't prepared to play it. The booklet offers no enlightenment.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 25, 2020, 01:08:02 AM
The Concertgebouw ethos is very much about Beaty and Truthfulness.

Truthfulness to the composer is hard to achieve when you're looking at the Tenth, where the truth is very hard to find from the second mvt onwards. I think something snapped when Rattle was advocating playing nr 10; add to this Rattle's habit of underlining certain phrases in a way that the RCOA doesn't find in line with either Beauty nor Truth. (Of course the mystery is they loved playing with Bernstein in the same era, who wasn't averse to some emphasis either, apart from other quirks.)

The weird thing is, virtually no one who was in the orchestra in the early eighthies is in the orchestra now. And still these things are set in stone forever. We don't do Mahler 10. We won't play with Rattle. I mean, if you can choose between playing with Rattle or with Gatti, the choice seems easy....

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Total Rafa on April 25, 2020, 02:09:13 AM
I realise some people can't get on board with a 'full' 10th, but the finale is a wonderful piece of music. A slow procession with epic clangs of bass drum lead to a glorious flute passage, and then from there it is a vintage Mahler adagio.

I recall Gielen does a really startling opening to this movement. Thomas Dausgaard with the Seattle Symphony is another worthwhile recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 25, 2020, 02:22:27 AM
Quote from: Herman on April 24, 2020, 11:56:34 PM
Rattle recorded the entire symphony nr 10 with the Bournemouth, Birmingham and Berlin.

Are you sure he recorded it with Birmingham? I think only Bournemouth and Berlin, actually. (Unless there's a BBC Magazine recording or something of that sort that I'm overlooking.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 25, 2020, 02:42:17 AM
You're right. I jumped to conclusions seeing new cover art for the same old Bournemouth recording, assuming it was with the Birmingham.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 25, 2020, 03:31:47 AM
Quote from: JBS on April 24, 2020, 03:52:06 PM
(I would call it anguish, not despair.)

Very likely it's what I'm hearing, in these times...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 25, 2020, 04:05:31 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 24, 2020, 04:18:39 PM
It is structurally complete, and unless Mahler changed his normal procedures, what we have contains the primary argument of the Tenth as it would have been if he had lived another year or two. What would have happened is that he would have filled things in, fleshed out the instrumentation, and so forth, but what survives doesn't require any guesswork on the part of editors regarding form or melodic development or (mostly) harmony.

The manuscript is available online for anyone to view.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.10_(Mahler%2C_Gustav)

(Under the "Sketches and Drafts" tab)


I don't think of it as a completed Mahler work like the other 9 (or 10, if you count Das Lied), but what we do have is valuable and shows that the composer was still at the height of his creative powers until the very end.

I knew all that. When I say that it still feels incomplete, what I think I'm saying is that the process of fleshing out the instrumentation, from Mahler's own hand, adds so much to the music. I'm guessing, based on my contrasting reactions between the 10th and any other Mahler symphony, is that this is where the music really comes alive, for me. Of course, the structure is important, and I'm glad we have these performing editions. They're worth hearing, and I wouldn't go as far as saying the Cooke version is "not Mahler" as so many have. But I don't think I will ever like the 10th as much as any other Mahler symphony because it is missing those final completing touches.

Essentially, I agree with your final statement. I wouldn't say his powers were on the wane or anything like that.

Mahlerian—and actually I hope others feel free to weigh in on this too—do you have any perspective on the opinion I've sometimes heard repeated that the 9th and Das Lied are also "incomplete" because he never got to hear them performed and subsequently edit them?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on April 25, 2020, 04:29:14 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 25, 2020, 04:05:31 AM
I knew all that. When I say that it still feels incomplete, what I think I'm saying is that the process of fleshing out the instrumentation, from Mahler's own hand, adds so much to the music. I'm guessing, based on my contrasting reactions between the 10th and any other Mahler symphony, is that this is where the music really comes alive, for me. Of course, the structure is important, and I'm glad we have these performing editions. They're worth hearing, and I wouldn't go as far as saying the Cooke version is "not Mahler" as so many have. But I don't think I will ever like the 10th as much as any other Mahler symphony because it is missing those final completing touches.

Essentially, I agree with your final statement. I wouldn't say his powers were on the wane or anything like that.

Mahlerian—and actually I hope others feel free to weigh in on this too—do you have any perspective on the opinion I've sometimes heard repeated that the 9th and Das Lied are also "incomplete" because he never got to hear them performed and subsequently edit them?


I am not sure about the 9th Symphony but Mahler had DLvdE engraved and published so he must have been reasonably satisfied with it. However, he did that with other symphonies and then revised them. You have to ask how far you want to go as Mahler never heard the final version of the 5th Symphony; he continually revised the orchestration and only handed the score over to a colleague to have published shortly before he died.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 25, 2020, 06:09:11 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 25, 2020, 04:05:31 AM
Mahlerian—and actually I hope others feel free to weigh in on this too—do you have any perspective on the opinion I've sometimes heard repeated that the 9th and Das Lied are also "incomplete" because he never got to hear them performed and subsequently edit them?

It is true that he would regularly make changes to orchestration after he got the opportunity to hear his works played in rehearsal, a process which led to, say, the addition of the piano in the Eighth to reinforce the sonority of harp and celesta, or the removal of a lot of the percussion from the Sixth's outer movements.  Still, the basic sound of the piece wasn't changed by these alterations; they were merely a way of refining and clarifying the sound that was already there.

There are places in the first and third movements of the Ninth that I think might have ended up being lightened as a result of this process, but for the most part, I think that both of his last completed works contain some of the best orchestration of Mahler's career. I wouldn't say they were any more incomplete than the Sixth Symphony in its first published version, before all of the orchestration changes he made in rehearsals for the first performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 25, 2020, 06:23:51 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 25, 2020, 06:09:11 AM
both of his last completed works contain some of the best orchestration of Mahler's career. I wouldn't say they were any more incomplete than the Sixth Symphony in its first published version, before all of the orchestration changes he made in rehearsals for the first performance.

My guess is his technique for orchestration and just the entire pack of skills needed to create great symphonic music got better and better as time passed and more Mahler symphonies were finished and premiered.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 25, 2020, 03:40:31 PM
I'm listening to Mahler's 4th, the Reiner/Chicago recording which I've finally got on CD. It was the first I ever heard and I still call it a great recording, one of the more fleet footed ones, but with some nice clarity and excellent playing from the '50s Chicagoans.

Anyway, I'm reading along with the score and there are some mind blowing details in the score that I've never noticed before. I really paid attention to that "bucolic" moment that Ritter spoke of the other day, and wow, I never realized how eloquently scored that moment is. Further, and I may have noticed this before, but a trumpet during the development (I believe it's after rehearsal mark 17) plays the exact opening theme to the 5th symphony, down to the same key. Anyone else notice this? I got the chills when I heard it while reading along with the score.

I can't remember my thoughts on Lisa della Casa in the finale as it's been so long since I've heard it. OK, she's really good, too, though I think I prefer Reri Grist in the Bernstein/New York.

Overall a phenomenal performance. I think the 2nd movement is the best I've ever heard. The 3rd is really good too despite being maybe a little too brisk.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KvdgTbsj/image-2020-04-25-T170430-991.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 27, 2020, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 25, 2020, 03:40:31 PM
Further, and I may have noticed this before, but a trumpet during the development (I believe it's after rehearsal mark 17) plays the exact opening theme to the 5th symphony, down to the same key. Anyone else notice this? I got the chills when I heard it while reading along with the score.

Oh yes, definitely. It's a perfect example of foreshadowing. I've always wondered if Mahler had already conceived of the Trauermarsch at that point, and was intentionally planting a foretaste of it there, in one of the darker passages of the 4th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 27, 2020, 11:18:00 PM
OTOH such march/signal motives abound in Mahler's music since the 1st symphony, so maybe it is almost coincidental. Or he really liked this one and made it prominent in the 5th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on April 27, 2020, 11:32:52 PM
Well, Mahler's "prophetical" qualities don't only apply to his own work. In the first movement of the Third, we fleetingly can hear a snippet from the 1920 popular song When you're smiling by Shay, Fischer and Goodwin, and in the climax of the ruhevoll, poco adagio of the Fourth, we can hear the beginning of Richard Strauss's Rosenkavalier waltz.  ??? :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 28, 2020, 03:40:14 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 27, 2020, 11:32:52 PM
Well, Mahler's "prophetical" qualities don't only apply to his own work. In the first movement of the Third, we fleetingly can hear a snippet from the 1920 popular song When you're smiling by Shay, Fischer and Goodwin, and in the climax of the ruhevoll, poco adagio of the Fourth, we can hear the beginning of Richard Strauss's Rosenkavalier waltz.  ??? :D

Not to mention that he foretold the popular song "I'll be seeing you in all the old familiar places" in the last movement of the 3rd...  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on April 28, 2020, 06:16:26 AM
There's also a bit of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer in the Second's Urlicht...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 28, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 28, 2020, 06:16:26 AM
There's also a bit of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer in the Second's Urlicht...

I'll have to listen again and see if I can pick it out, but I love Urlicht and I've never made that connection.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 28, 2020, 10:30:32 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 28, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
I'll have to listen again and see if I can pick it out, but I love Urlicht and I've never made that connection.  :D

My guess: he's referring to the piccolo figure 4 bars after rehearsal mark 4...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 28, 2020, 01:41:41 PM
Ha, this could be a thread "popular tunes prefigured in the classics". My favourite: "Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree" in the finale of the Emperor Concerto.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on April 30, 2020, 09:28:57 AM
About the Amsterdam 2020 Mahler Festival, which has been cancelled due to the pandemic.

It has been announced today that the Concertgebouw wants to do a digital Mahler Festival this summer, broadcasting the symphonies via social media, and do some peripheral stuff. All performances would be by the Concertgebouw Orchestra.

I have not been able to find a program on the Concertgebouw site yet.

Keeping you posted.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on April 30, 2020, 12:13:33 PM
Much appreciated, Herman !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on April 30, 2020, 12:37:49 PM
Quote from: Herman on April 30, 2020, 09:28:57 AM
About the Amsterdam 2020 Mahler Festival, which has been cancelled due to the pandemic.

It has been announced today that the Concertgebouw wants to do a digital Mahler Festival this summer, broadcasting the symphonies via social media, and do some peripheral stuff. All performances would be by the Concertgebouw Orchestra.

I have not been able to find a program on the Concertgebouw site yet.

Keeping you posted.

I'll be there... looking forward to updates.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 07, 2020, 10:30:15 AM
Here's news about the online Amsterdam Mahler Festival.

Tonight, May 8th, the Mahler Festival Online starts at 20.30 Amsterdam time with streams on Facebook.com/concertgebouw and mahlerfestival.nl. That's tomorrow, for Symphony nr 1.

I'm sorry a lot of this material (on the Mahlerfestival site) is counterintuitive and in Dutch.

I believe they stream a symphony every successive night.

•Symfonie nr. 1 o.l.v. Mariss Jansons (2013)

•Symfonie nr. 2 o.l.v. Daniele Gatti (2016)

•Symfonie nr. 3 o.l.v. Mariss Jansons (2010)

•Symfonie nr. 4 o.l.v. Iván Fischer (2010)

•Symfonie nr. 5 o.l.v. Daniele Gatti (2010)

•Symfonie nr. 6 o.l.v. Lorin Maazel (2010)

•Symfonie nr. 7 o.l.v. Pierre Boulez (2011)

•Symfonie nr. 8 o.l.v. Mariss Jansons (2011)

•Symfonie nr. 9 o.l.v. Bernard Haitink (2011)

•Das Lied von der Erde o.l.v. Fabio Luisi (2011)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on May 07, 2020, 03:55:39 PM

I was there for the Gatti #5, along with another GMGer ! Can it be 10 years already ?  ???

Nos 6 and 9 interest me. Thanks, Herman!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on May 08, 2020, 02:14:45 AM
Oh, these are recorded performances from years past? For some reason I was expecting live performances streamed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on May 08, 2020, 02:46:55 AM
You can't put an orchestra together right now, and I doubt that streaming technology is really good enough to coordinate a large orchestra remotely and get a good outcome.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 08, 2020, 05:40:32 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 08, 2020, 02:14:45 AM
Oh, these are recorded performances from years past? For some reason I was expecting live performances streamed.

You know orchestras are in quarantaine now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 08, 2020, 05:42:18 AM
There are introductory talks before every symphony. Today the RCOA's leader of the double bass section talks about the solo in the First Symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2020, 11:27:22 AM
Re: the Amsterdam Online Mahler Festival, since the symphonies are all recycled video concerts, the extras, talks with musicians and conductors and others are the really interesting part.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 14, 2020, 10:31:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC6EGMGEENc

Mahler 7 tonight, Concertgebouworkest, Boulez
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on May 14, 2020, 01:21:01 PM
Thanks Herman! Do you know how long the link remains available?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 21, 2020, 02:58:44 AM
The latest announcement by the Concertgebouw Orchestra is they are going to have a Mahler Festival, with international orchestras in the summer of 2021. Those orchestras will be swinging by on their way from a Leipzig festival at the same time.

The program will feature Mahler symphonies 1 thru 6.

And that's the last Mahler I will be hearing. I'd like a Sibelius Festival in 2025 or so. The Concertgebouw hardly ever performs Sibelius.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2020, 04:40:31 AM
Hurwitz is a funny man...


https://www.youtube.com/v/UBvECavsdog
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2020, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2020, 04:40:31 AM
Hurwitz is a funny man...

While I can't debate any of his criticisms of Svetlanov's cycle (Hurwitz is actually spot on), I still enjoy its eccentricities (the extremely broad tempos in particular). I just wish the sonics weren't so unbalanced especially the vocal contributions.

I've been enjoying the Hurwitzer's YouTube series...maybe because he so often mirrors my own taste. His top Schubert Ninth (Szell/Cleveland) is mine. He mentions Chailly, Solti and Bernstein in his review of the Mahler Sixth,, all my favorites too. And Maazel and Chailly along with Lenny, are among those chosen for the Mahler Fourth. I couldn't agree more.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2020, 02:51:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2020, 12:34:45 PM
While I can't debate any of his criticisms of Svetlanov's cycle (Hurwitz is actually spot on)...

What's the saying about a stopped watch being right twice a day?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 18, 2020, 06:02:30 PM
Mahler's 1st and 6th are my least favorite of his lot, and that's not saying I think they are bad, I just haven't made a strong connection to them the way I have the other eight, or nine. But this morning I listened to Barbirolli's 1968 recording with the Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI of Mahler's tragic 6th, and I think I have found the reason why I never really connected to the 6th, because I had never listened to Barbirolli's 1968 recording with the Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI!!
Now this one seems much slower in tempi than what I have heard before, if my memory serves me right even Lenny's DG performance wasn't this slow. And even though I don't always advocate for slow-Mahler I think I definitely prefer the 6th to glum as much as possible. However the finale is speedier in the right spots, enhancing those heavier moments even more. And holy crap that timpani during the final chord is the MVP, and the separation between that chord and the pizzicato to close out the piece is perfect.

I'm no expert on this piece, and I'm sure I'll get schooled on this thread regarding this and other recordings of the 6th, but this one from Barbirolli/Philharmonia really perked up my ears more than ever. I just ordered a copy, the first image I posted, but there seems to be four different covers available.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81IlvLakZZL._SX355_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513h55G1LwL._SY325_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on June 18, 2020, 06:26:21 PM
I have it in this  issue.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/7101CQYtWwL.jpg)
The Metamorphosen is not to be slighted, btw, although it's not quite the match of the Klemperer performance  that  is coupled with the latter's M9.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 18, 2020, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: JBS on June 18, 2020, 06:26:21 PM
I have it in this  issue.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/7101CQYtWwL.jpg)
The Metamorphosen is not to be slighted, btw, although it's not quite the match of the Klemperer performance  that  is coupled with the latter's M9.

I have seen that variant as well!
And I have the Klemperer Wagner/Strauss box set that includes the Metamorphosen, yes it is quite good!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on June 19, 2020, 12:56:46 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 18, 2020, 06:02:30 PM
Mahler's 1st and 6th are my least favorite of his lot, and that's not saying I think they are bad, I just haven't made a strong connection to them the way I have the other eight, or nine. But this morning I listened to Barbirolli's 1968 recording with the Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI of Mahler's tragic 6th, and I think I have found the reason why I never really connected to the 6th, because I had never listened to Barbirolli's 1968 recording with the Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI!!
Now this one seems much slower in tempi than what I have heard before, if my memory serves me right even Lenny's DG performance wasn't this slow. And even though I don't always advocate for slow-Mahler I think I definitely prefer the 6th to glum as much as possible. However the finale is speedier in the right spots, enhancing those heavier moments even more. And holy crap that timpani during the final chord is the MVP, and the separation between that chord and the pizzicato to close out the piece is perfect.

I'm no expert on this piece, and I'm sure I'll get schooled on this thread regarding this and other recordings of the 6th, but this one from Barbirolli/Philharmonia really perked up my ears more than ever. I just ordered a copy, the first image I posted, but there seems to be four different covers available.


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81IlvLakZZL._SX355_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513h55G1LwL._SY325_.jpg)

This raises the perennial thorny question of movement order. Mahler wanted Andante-Scherzo and that is how Barbirolli performed it. EMI in their wisdom reversed the order to the then more familiar order Scherzo-Andante without consulting Barbirolli and that is how it stayed for various issues until they finally decided to follow his wishes (posthumously). Not sure which of those covers it is. I have it spread over two discs and this makes it impossible to re-program the order of movements. Fortunately, there are two live performances, both on Testament, with the Berlin Philharmonic and the Philharmonia. The Philharmonia performance was made shortly before the studio recording and is 10 minutes quicker and it is the one I prefer.

Obviously, if you want the slow version you need one of the studio issues.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 02:16:29 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 19, 2020, 12:56:46 AM
This raises the perennial thorny question of movement order. Mahler wanted Andante-Scherzo and that is how Barbirolli performed it. EMI in their wisdom reversed the order to the then more familiar order Scherzo-Andante without consulting Barbirolli and that is how it stayed for various issues until they finally decided to follow his wishes (posthumously). Not sure which of those covers it is. I have it spread over two discs and this makes it impossible to re-program the order of movements. Fortunately, there are two live performances, both on Testament, with the Berlin Philharmonic and the Philharmonia. The Philharmonia performance was made shortly before the studio recording and is 10 minutes quicker and it is the one I prefer.

Obviously, if you want the slow version you need one of the studio issues.

The Rouge et Noir release has the Scherzo-Andante movement order. It was done in accordance with the then 'official movement ordering' as pronounced by the Gustav Mahler Society. (See also: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html))

Later, when the GMS reversed its decision (again, back to A-S), Barbirolli's original movement order was restored. This is in part because the arguments for S-A by the Critical Mahler Edition were indeed highly flawed; perhaps even falsified. However, it is very doubtful whether a waterproof (or even low-leakage) claim can be made, that Mahler himself "wanted" it to be S-A. He merely performed it that way, on the advice of well-wishers... but he didn't perform it often. Then, of course, the highly pragmatic (and surprisingly insecure) Mahler was *quite* willing to do just about anything to get his works performed... and acceded to breaks between movement that hadn't necessarily been intended, or performances of stand-alone movements.

While Alma's telegraph to Mengelberg "Scherzo first, definitely" cannot be trusted, either, the dramatic and harmonic evidence suggests very strongly that S-A is a better fit; only a very conventional view of what a proper symphony should look like (partly due to the fact that superficially, the Sixth appears to be in 'proper' symphony form) would suggest that A-S is more appropriate.

Mahler experts disagree and vary wildly and change their minds on this, both ways. (Jansons - not that I'd call him a Mahler expert and Ivan Fischer are two examples I can think of, who have performed it both ways. Fischer more conscientiously, in an attempt to find out what works. That he ultimately found that A-S works better for him doesn't detract from his good-faith willingness to try it both ways.) Henri-Louis de la Grange, not the least among Mahler experts, was of course strongly and unwaveringly in the S-A camp. [As am I.]

In short, it's impossible to stipulate that there is a right and a wrong way to do this... but I would suggest that the "Auffuehrungspraxis" arguments for S-A are weaker than the arguments of the S-A side, which actually looks at the structure. (Which is the much better argument than that of the order of composition, S-A, itself, of course, because it's not like Mahler hadn't on many occasions composed / finished movements of his symphonies in any given order... or taken movements from one symphony to make them movements of other symphonies.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on June 19, 2020, 02:52:23 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 02:16:29 AM
The Rouge et Noir release has the Scherzo-Andante movement order. It was done in accordance with the then 'official movement ordering' as pronounced by the Gustav Mahler Society. (See also: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/gustav-mahler-symphony-no6-part-1.html))

Later, when the GMS reversed its decision (again, back to A-S), Barbirolli's original movement order was restored. This is in part because the arguments for S-A by the Critical Mahler Edition were indeed highly flawed; perhaps even falsified. However, it is very doubtful whether a waterproof (or even low-leakage) claim can be made, that Mahler himself "wanted" it to be S-A. He merely performed it that way, on the advice of well-wishers... but he didn't perform it often. Then, of course, the highly pragmatic (and surprisingly insecure) Mahler was *quite* willing to do just about anything to get his works performed... and acceded to breaks between movement that hadn't necessarily been intended, or performances of stand-alone movements.

While Alma's telegraph to Mengelberg "Scherzo first, definitely" cannot be trusted, either, the dramatic and harmonic evidence suggests very strongly that S-A is a better fit; only a very conventional view of what a proper symphony should look like (partly due to the fact that superficially, the Sixth appears to be in 'proper' symphony form) would suggest that A-S is more appropriate.

Mahler experts disagree and vary wildly and change their minds on this, both ways. (Jansons - not that I'd call him a Mahler expert and Ivan Fischer are two examples I can think of, who have performed it both ways. Fischer more conscientiously, in an attempt to find out what works. That he ultimately found that A-S works better for him doesn't detract from his good-faith willingness to try it both ways.) Henri-Louis de la Grange, not the least among Mahler experts, was of course strongly and unwaveringly in the S-A camp. [As am I.]

In short, it's impossible to stipulate that there is a right and a wrong way to do this... but I would suggest that the "Auffuehrungspraxis" arguments for S-A are weaker than the arguments of the S-A side, which actually looks at the structure. (Which is the much better argument than that of the order of composition, S-A, itself, of course, because it's not like Mahler hadn't on many occasions composed / finished movements of his symphonies in any given order... or taken movements from one symphony to make them movements of other symphonies.)

I take all your points except the one highlighted. I have never seen that before and Mahler went to the trouble of having the publisher insert an erratum slip. It was the loss of this slip that caused Mengelberg to consult Alma.

There is a precedent  - Mahler switched the order Scherzo-Andante in the 2nd Symphony but this was long before publication.

My view is pragmatic (or just lazy). I got to know the work from Kubelik and he followed the IGMG edition (Ratz). As this was the only version I had for many years it is the order I got used to and in any case I wasn't even aware there was a problem. Now I have numerous versions I simply play them as given even though I could re-program many of them. Deep down I suppose I prefer S-A but think Mahler's final version should be followed (A-S).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 19, 2020, 07:05:25 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 02:16:29 AMLater, when the GMS reversed its decision (again, back to A-S), Barbirolli's original movement order was restored. This is in part because the arguments for S-A by the Critical Mahler Edition were indeed highly flawed; perhaps even falsified. However, it is very doubtful whether a waterproof (or even low-leakage) claim can be made, that Mahler himself "wanted" it to be S-A. He merely performed it that way, on the advice of well-wishers... but he didn't perform it often.

The Sixth Symphony didn't survive long beyond the premiere. He conducted it again in Vienna and that was pretty much it. The critical response was so overwhelmingly negative that it may very well have contributed to the anti-Semitic campaign to oust him from his position. I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about his preferred version on account of which one he performed for that reason; it was such a short period of time that he wouldn't have thought to reconsider his reconsideration.

Personally, I think Scherzo-Andante makes more musical sense. Both the segue from Allegro to Scherzo and that from Andante to Finale are smoother than the alternatives. I've heard it performed both ways, though, and I'll respect the order chosen by a given conductor.

It's remarkable, considering Mahler's stature over a century later, but the first recordings of the Sixth date from the 1950s, and this in spite of champions like Schoenberg, who considered it one of his most perfect works (as do I).

Seth Monahan on the Finale:
Quote from: Seth MonahanNothing in Mahler's earlier works--indeed, nothing in the Western canon at large--could have prepared fin-de-siecle audiences for the Finale of the Sixth Symphony. Never before had instrumental music been asked to bear a calamity of this scale or intensity. Perhaps only Strauss's Salome, premiered the year before (1905), had ever used the post-Wagnerian orchestra for such diabolically noxious ends. Even the earlier movements of the Sixth itself--demonic enough in their own right--pale in comparison to the half-hour sonic assault that closes the symphony, one that "bewildered" early audiences...and sent critics scrambling to decry this hyperbolically dark "hypertrophically" scored monstrosity.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 07:10:54 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 19, 2020, 07:05:25 AM
The Sixth Symphony didn't survive long beyond the premiere. He conducted it again in Vienna and that was pretty much it. The critical response was so overwhelmingly negative that it may very well have contributed to the anti-Semitic campaign to oust him from his position. I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about his preferred version on account of which one he performed for that reason; it was such a short period of time that he wouldn't have thought to reconsider his reconsideration.

Personally, I think Scherzo-Andante makes more musical sense. Both the segue from Allegro to Scherzo and that from Andante to Finale are smoother than the alternatives. I've heard it performed both ways, though, and I'll respect the order chosen by a given conductor.

It's remarkable, considering Mahler's stature over a century later, but the first recordings of the Sixth date from the 1950s, and this in spite of champions like Schoenberg, who considered it one of his most perfect works (as do I).

If I had to pick one, the 6th would be my favorite Mahler symphony, too. And like you, I really don't think we can properly speak of "Mahler's last wishes" as something particularly meaningful in this case. It's more a snapshot that happened to come out that way. Like that one time Napoleon scratched his belly during the painting session, and now everyone thinks he always stood around with his hand in his waistcoat. :-)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 19, 2020, 07:12:16 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 19, 2020, 07:05:25 AM
The Sixth Symphony didn't survive long beyond the premiere. He conducted it again in Vienna and that was pretty much it. The critical response was so overwhelmingly negative that it may very well have contributed to the anti-Semitic campaign to oust him from his position. I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about his preferred version on account of which one he performed for that reason; it was such a short period of time that he wouldn't have thought to reconsider his reconsideration.

Personally, I think Scherzo-Andante makes more musical sense. Both the segue from Allegro to Scherzo and that from Andante to Finale are smoother than the alternatives. I've heard it performed both ways, though, and I'll respect the order chosen by a given conductor.

It's remarkable, considering Mahler's stature over a century later, but the first recordings of the Sixth date from the 1950s, and this in spite of champions like Schoenberg, who considered it one of his most perfect works (as do I).

+ 1. Very well said.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 07:12:42 AM
Quote from: Biffo on June 19, 2020, 02:52:23 AM
I take all your points except the one highlighted. I have never seen that before ...

The argument brought forth to him during rehearsals was, that the public wouldn't accept two such similar movements in direct succession.

Of course, I think that what gives the symphony its dramatic poignancy: RIGHT PUNCH. LEFT PUNCH. Lulling you into security. FINAL KNOCKOUT... with descent into unconsciousness.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 19, 2020, 07:24:23 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 07:12:42 AM
The argument brought forth to him during rehearsals was, that the public wouldn't accept two such similar movements in direct succession.

Of course, I think that what gives the symphony its dramatic poignancy: RIGHT PUNCH. LEFT PUNCH. Lulling you into security. FINAL KNOCKOUT... with descent into unconsciousness.

That, too, is very well said ! The boxing analogy is entirely apt !
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on June 19, 2020, 10:31:00 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 07:10:54 AM
If I had to pick one, the 6th would be my favorite Mahler symphony, too. And like you, I really don't think we can properly speak of "Mahler's last wishes" as something particularly meaningful in this case. It's more a snapshot that happened to come out that way. Like that one time Napoleon scratched his belly during the painting session, and now everyone thinks he always stood around with his hand in his waistcoat. :-)

If you go through 19th century portraiture and photographers, you'll find a lot of military officers used the same pose.  Sample here, the unknown officer standing next to Grant. Grant is using another standard solution to the problem of what do with one's hands while standing still for a long time.
(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/i8hqgrTS0APo/v2/800x-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 19, 2020, 12:39:01 PM
So as a new fan of Barbirolli's 6th, where would some of you suggest I go next? I own, or have heard, the 6th's from Bernstein x2, Boulez, Abbado, Zinman and Currentzis, which this may not look like the go-to list of Mahler conductors, but I never sought out for the best performances either.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 19, 2020, 12:54:42 PM
Mitropoulos (NY or Cologne whatever is easier to find). He is on the slow and bleak side.
The opposite is Kondrashin/Melodiya who is (too) fast and brutalist.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2020, 01:04:10 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 19, 2020, 12:39:01 PM
So as a new fan of Barbirolli's 6th, where would some of you suggest I go next?

If you like a slow 6th then I suggest hearing Chailly...very slow and very grim.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on June 19, 2020, 01:38:20 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 19, 2020, 12:39:01 PM
So as a new fan of Barbirolli's 6th, where would some of you suggest I go next? I own, or have heard, the 6th's from Bernstein x2, Boulez, Abbado, Zinman and Currentzis, which this may not look like the go-to list of Mahler conductors, but I never sought out for the best performances either.

Thanks!
I can't think of a 6th as heavy and trudging as Barbirolli. Boulez and Abbado are both generally solid choices. I don't rate Bernstein's Mahler much these days, I think he hams it up way too much—great for Tchaikovsky, not so much here. My personal favourite is Eschenbach, but I don't know how readily available it is currently.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 19, 2020, 04:17:44 PM
Benjamin Zander's Telarc version is quite fantastic IMO. Still, Barbirolli rules the roost.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 19, 2020, 04:33:46 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 19, 2020, 12:54:42 PM
Mitropoulos (NY or Cologne whatever is easier to find). He is on the slow and bleak side.
The opposite is Kondrashin/Melodiya who is (too) fast and brutalist.

Thanks!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2020, 01:04:10 PM
If you like a slow 6th then I suggest hearing Chailly...very slow and very grim.

Sarge

I do have Chailly conducting the 3rd, 5th, and 8th and all are very good, so I'll definitely check out the 6th.

Quote from: Crudblud on June 19, 2020, 01:38:20 PM
I can't think of a 6th as heavy and trudging as Barbirolli. Boulez and Abbado are both generally solid choices. I don't rate Bernstein's Mahler much these days, I think he hams it up way too much—great for Tchaikovsky, not so much here. My personal favourite is Eschenbach, but I don't know how readily available it is currently.

Just found a few from Eschenbach/Philly to stream online, will give them a spin. Thanks!

Quote from: André on June 19, 2020, 04:17:44 PM
Benjamin Zander's Telarc version is quite fantastic IMO. Still, Barbirolli rules the roost.

I knew I may have peaked too early.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: Crudblud on June 19, 2020, 01:38:20 PM
I can't think of a 6th as heavy and trudging as Barbirolli. Boulez and Abbado are both generally solid choices. I don't rate Bernstein's Mahler much these days, I think he hams it up way too much—great for Tchaikovsky, not so much here. My personal favourite is Eschenbach, but I don't know how readily available it is currently.

Boulez/VPhil  (https://amzn.to/30YhROT)is an excellent choice; mainstream in the best sense, and with real bite. (I also have a recording of him doing it with the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra, and that's just about as good. (Although not appreciably better for being rare.  ;)) Abbado/Berlin (https://amzn.to/3fGBgbd) is dull as dishwater and flaccid. Perhaps his Chicago version (https://amzn.to/30YhNi7) is better (the orchestra would lend itself to it, although that's not saying much in and of itself), but if it is, I don't remember it. And Eschenbach/Philadelphia (http://a-fwd.to/Ca4FRac) (Ondine; still readily available) is a real sleeper (in the good sense). Another slow-burning type of 6th and nicely coupled with the Quintet.

That said, I'm still a sucker for some other versions, including the Zander II (https://amzn.to/311n8oP) (out of 3), Gielen (https://amzn.to/2zR8ndi)(the standard issue one, not the early mainstream recording or the noodling late effort; also: Love the couplings there!), and Fischer Ivan (https://amzn.to/2YjkLw1), which might be the most successful 'soft' interpretation of the 6th that I know. Oh, and there's something oddly noncommittal about Karajan (https://amzn.to/3fLL7Nb), in the way he opts for an interpretation (or doesn't), but the result is mechanically compelling in such a way, that I would rank his also among the Top 10 of recordings of the Sixth.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on June 19, 2020, 11:51:15 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 19, 2020, 11:21:32 PM
Boulez/VPhil  (https://amzn.to/30YhROT)is an excellent choice; mainstream in the best sense, and with real bite. (I also have a recording of him doing it with the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra, and that's just about as good. (Although not appreciably better for being rare.  ;)) Abbado/Berlin (https://amzn.to/3fGBgbd) is dull as dishwater and flaccid. Perhaps his Chicago version (https://amzn.to/30YhNi7) is better (the orchestra would lend itself to it, although that's not saying much in and of itself), but if it is, I don't remember it. And Eschenbach/Philadelphia (http://a-fwd.to/Ca4FRac) (Ondine; still readily available) is a real sleeper (in the good sense). Another slow-burning type of 6th and nicely coupled with the Quintet.

That said, I'm still a sucker for some other versions, including the Zander II (https://amzn.to/311n8oP) (out of 3), Gielen (https://amzn.to/2zR8ndi)(the standard issue one, not the early mainstream recording or the noodling late effort; also: Love the couplings there!), and Fischer Ivan (https://amzn.to/2YjkLw1), which might be the most successful 'soft' interpretation of the 6th that I know.
Abbado isn't entirely convincing. I do think the finale is very well done, though the first three movements are merely okay, and in structural/narrative terms I find Andante-Scherzo less convincing than the more common ordering. Boulez is certainly more consistent; I think his only "mistake", for want of a better word, is to undermine climaxes in the finale a little too much.

Is that Gielen the same one as on the Hänssler box set? The individual releases with the "filler" pieces from other composers seem to be hard to find these days, had some of them out from the library at one time but have never actually seen them available for purchase anywhere. I enjoy Gielen's Mahler quite a lot, his 7th is by far my favourite recording of that work, and he is excellent in the 2nd, 5th, and 9th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 20, 2020, 12:18:31 AM
You can get it used (I am not sure if the Schubert "10th" fragment was available in any other way.

[asin]B01K8N5ZK8[/asin]

If you go to German amazon there are cheap copies, even with s&h they should be affordable.

https://www.amazon.de/Mahler-Symphony-Sinfonieorchester-Baden-Baden-Freiburg-2001-08-20/dp/B01K8N5ZK8/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=gielen+mahler+6&link_code=qs&qid=1592641065&sourceid=Mozilla-search&sr=8-4&tag=firefox-de-21
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 20, 2020, 01:38:19 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on June 19, 2020, 11:51:15 PM
Is that Gielen the same one as on the Hänssler box set? The individual releases with the "filler" pieces from other composers seem to be hard to find these days, had some of them out from the library at one time but have never actually seen them available for purchase anywhere. I enjoy Gielen's Mahler quite a lot, his 7th is by far my favourite recording of that work, and he is excellent in the 2nd, 5th, and 9th.

Based on the timings Amazon shows on that link, it would be the same as the one in the SWR Music box set (which I have).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on June 20, 2020, 01:54:32 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 18, 2020, 06:02:30 PM
I'm no expert on this piece, and I'm sure I'll get schooled on this thread regarding this and other recordings of the 6th, but this one from Barbirolli/Philharmonia really perked up my ears more than ever. I just ordered a copy, the first image I posted, but there seems to be four different covers available.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81IlvLakZZL._SX355_.jpg)

Barbirolli came out top in the Mahler 6 Blind Comparison (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20334.240.html) - out of 24 runners and riders.  The whole thread is a great read, to get a handle on some of the other well-respected recordings out there.  (Of course it pre-dates Currentzis and Vanska by several years.)

I have no idea why I'm butting in, since the 6th is music I don't like and never listen to  ::)

But I do like that Giacometti cover image though - never seen that one before.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on June 20, 2020, 03:00:48 AM
Thanks to Jo and Madiel for suggestions/confirmations above.

All this 6th talk put me in mind of a memorable recording I heard recently: Harold Farberman conducting the London Symphony Orchestra. Memorable in ways both good and bad. He obviously has ideas about how the music should sound, and his Scherzo is absolutely killer, I've never heard anyone take the tempi so vigorously, he's practically in Mengelberg 4 territory with the decelerandi and sudden returns to tempo. However, the LSO brass is often criminally bad, sounding overloud, out of tune, and off-beat in many many places throughout. I was surprised to hear such a renowned orchestra playing so badly*, but I recalled that around the same time as this recording was made, Kent Nagano was recording two volumes of Frank Zappa's orchestral music with the LSO, and Zappa was not shy about decrying a lack of professionalism especially among the brass players. Anyway, the recording, while I don't think of it as being great in any sense, has impressed me on some level, and I think it is this sense of a battle between conductor and orchestra that is felt throughout. It makes me think of Scherchen struggling with the Toronto Symphony to get his 7th (one of my favourite Mahler recordings in all its bizarreness), although here that drama is less compelling since overall the reading leans more toward the ordinary than anything else.

*in fairness, the strings are brilliant and elevate the generous Andante, but that brass... mein Gott!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 20, 2020, 03:39:04 AM
Quote from: Madiel on June 20, 2020, 01:38:19 AM
Based on the timings Amazon shows on that link, it would be the same as the one in the SWR Music box set (which I have).

That's the one. The two others have been released in a more recent commemorative issue; the 70s recording having also made appearances under fictional conductors on budget labels like Pilz.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on June 20, 2020, 07:29:04 AM
For recordings of the 6th Symphony, check out Currentzis also. Probably the single one I'd choose. A good mixture of lyricism and tragedy, very good, transparent sound, and a suitable sense of line or broadness.

I've likewise got
CD   Tennstedt,LPO/emi 99 572 941-2
CD   Scherchen,LeipRSO/tahra mono 60-96 4cd 147 & membran documents 10cd 600452
CD   Gielen,SwFunk/swr 17cd 17swr19042
CD   Bertini,soli,KölnRSO/emi 11cd 0946 3402382
CD   Kondrashin,MoscowRSO/melodiya 1972-xx, no number
LP    Kubelik,BayRSO/dg 14 lp 2720 033
CD   Bernstein,NYPO/cbs 12cd 8869 7943 332
LP    Levine,LSO/rca 2lp rl 03213
LP    Barbirolli,NewPO/emi 82 cfp 41 4424 3
LP    Karajan,BPO/dg 2lp 2707 106
LP    F.C.Adler,WienO/spa mono 2lp spa59-60
LP    Horenstein,StPO/nones 2lp HB73029 (cover: Brautigam)
DWL Bernstein/VPO/DG
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on June 20, 2020, 05:13:15 PM
What is your favorite version of the completed No. 10? I haven't yet heard this but it looks very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=WKMlG5czgks&feature=emb_logo
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 20, 2020, 05:33:37 PM
Quote from: relm1 on June 20, 2020, 05:13:15 PM
What is your favorite version of the completed No. 10? I haven't yet heard this but it looks very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=WKMlG5czgks&feature=emb_logo

For Cooke's version I've always liked Rattle/Berlin on EMI, but I've been spinning the new Seattle/Dausgaard a ton lately. It boasts better sound which is perfect for hearing all of the harmonies and its instrumentation.

And for Mazzetti's version I like the Slatkin/St.Louis, which was my first intro to the work more than 20 years ago. And the only other recording I have of Mazzetti's is from Lopez-Cobos/Cincinnati which is actually just as fine, and with that Telarc digital boom!

I also own the Sanderling/Berlin SO recording of the 10th which is Cooke.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on June 20, 2020, 05:39:04 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 20, 2020, 05:33:37 PM
For Cooke's version I've always liked Rattle/Berlin on EMI, but I've been spinning the new Seattle/Dausgaard a ton lately. It boasts better sound which is perfect for hearing all of the harmonies and its instrumentation.

And for Mazzetti's version I like the Slatkin/St.Louis, which was my first intro to the work more than 20 years ago. And the only other recording I have of Mazzetti's is from Lopez-Cobos/Cincinnati which is actually just as fine, and with that Telarc digital boom!

I also own the Sanderling/Berlin SO recording of the 10th which is Cooke.

I always felt Cooke was too safe.  I preferred Mazzetti's version but didn't like Slatkins recording (it wasn't close to as good to his live recording version of it).  So I'm preferring the version I liked to.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 20, 2020, 05:42:11 PM
I didn't like Rattle's very much. For Cooke I preferred Harding. The Lopez-Cobos using Mazetti's version is also very enjoyable.

But my answer to most Mahler 10 questions is: anything but Carpenter!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 21, 2020, 03:01:34 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 20, 2020, 05:13:15 PM
What is your favorite version of the completed No. 10? I haven't yet heard this but it looks very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=WKMlG5czgks&feature=emb_logo

Barshai (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003E1QDH6/goodmusicguide-20), by a mile. But any good Cooke II or III version will do the trick (Chailly (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004T769/goodmusicguide-20), for example; Gielen (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CQM4NS/goodmusicguide-20)most of all); most conductors add their own little touches, anyway, as they should. I don't mind Wheeler (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006669V/goodmusicguide-20), I have to say. It's a good spartan counter to the busier version.

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-1.html)

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-2.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no10-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on June 21, 2020, 03:44:29 AM
Has anyone besides Barshai himself recorded his version? My recollection is that Barshai's recording has an over-loud, blown-out sound quality with a lot of clipping, which for me makes it quite difficult to listen to. It's a shame because the 5th it comes packaged with is surely one of the best on record and has great sound to match.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 21, 2020, 04:05:03 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on June 21, 2020, 03:44:29 AM
Has anyone besides Barshai himself recorded his version? My recollection is that Barshai's recording has an over-loud, blown-out sound quality with a lot of clipping, which for me makes it quite difficult to listen to. It's a shame because the 5th it comes packaged with is surely one of the best on record and has great sound to match.

Not that I know of. Unfortunately. It might simply be too expensive? (UE holding the rights.)

At least the score can be read through on their site. https://www.universaledition.com/gustav-mahler-448/works/10-symphonie-7112 (https://www.universaledition.com/gustav-mahler-448/works/10-symphonie-7112)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on June 21, 2020, 07:51:17 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 20, 2020, 05:42:11 PM

But my answer to most Mahler 10 questions is: anything but Carpenter!

Amen!

I have the Slatkin recording, and thought it went overboard way too much with the drum, so I guess I don't like Mazetti.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 21, 2020, 08:06:05 AM
Quote from: JBS on June 21, 2020, 07:51:17 AM
Amen!

I have the Slatkin recording, and thought it went overboard way too much with the drum, so I guess I don't like Mazetti.

The Lopez-Cobos is actually a revised Mazetti that's much less interventionist than the earlier one, but still more so than Cooke.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 21, 2020, 07:05:23 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 20, 2020, 05:42:11 PM
I didn't like Rattle's very much. For Cooke I preferred Harding. The Lopez-Cobos using Mazetti's version is also very enjoyable.

But my answer to most Mahler 10 questions is: anything but Carpenter!

Who are the carpenters (carpenterites?). Sorting the various versions is rather tricky.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on June 21, 2020, 07:21:22 PM
Quote from: André on June 21, 2020, 07:05:23 PM
Who are the carpenters (carpenterites?). Sorting the various versions is rather tricky.

Zinman. It's lousy.  IIRC no one else.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on June 22, 2020, 01:43:37 AM
Andrew Litton has done a Carpenter too with the Dallas SO:

(https://d1kn5i7nlzd2nj.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/01153031/DE-3295-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on June 22, 2020, 04:43:09 AM
Thanks, gents.

I have Barshai, Slatkin, Gamzou, Nézet-Séguin and Goldschmidt. The last two are my favourites, but I confess a fondness for Gamzou's extravagant conception.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on June 22, 2020, 06:30:36 AM
This is so beautiful.  Mahler 10 ending (Mazzuca ending) in a new recording.
https://youtu.be/WKMlG5czgks?t=4493 (https://youtu.be/WKMlG5czgks?t=4493)

This made me obsessed with Mahler 10 and I looked through the extant material and read about the differences between all the versions which seems to be 13 to date if you include the multiple iterations such as Cook I, II, III.  It seems the general take away is Cooke III is the most researched in that they didn't just review all the extant material and full score of movement 1, 2 but this included the sketches which in some cases the later short score copies incorrectly and Cooke/Matthews bros corrected for.  Barshai was the most informed in that he used Cooke III but revised the sketches and some cases makes judgements based on his experience as a Mahler conductor, what Cooke did, and what he felt Mahler intended based on the sketches.  In other words, everyone after Cooke benefited from the work Cooke did in that they had a completed version to use and compare with.  Mazzuca says he didn't refer to Cooke but returned to the original however it seems there is strong evidence of influence by Cooke.

Here is what exists of No. 10, all available on IMSLP:
* Composer sketches with lots of ideas some discarded some retained, some yet to be flushed out.  They are not in order.
* Short score draft of the entire work in order with some harmonic and counterpoint omissions.  As if there were place holders that Mahler would have flushed out.  All the melodic or principal material is there throughout.  The second movement has clear indications of instrumentation.  Not all the harmony and some good indications of instrumentation as it follows 4 staves so you can see generally first stave is winds, second is brass, third is perc/harp or third/fourth are strings.  Using this, you can definitely get a performance version but it wouldn't be exactly what Mahler would have done.  There are errors/discrepancies/second guessing which is one of the big differences between the various versions is how the arranger makes a judgement call.  Example: was something a copying error between the sketch and short score or a revision?  It isn't always clear.   Cooke might have felt it was an error and Barshai thought it was a revision for example. 
* Orchestrated full score of the first movement

After looking through the short score (which is complete except for a few gaps in harmony or simplified counterpoint and lacking dynamics), I still think it is far enough along that one could say this is where Mahler was going and it deserves to be heard rather than ignored.  The essence is there and it is convincing.  I also believe Mahler was an obsessive tinkerer and would have continued to refine and tweak the work even had he lived another 10 years.  I understand the latest revised version of the Mahler Symphony No. 2 was from just a few years ago for example so probably if Mahler lived, he would have revised his other works too.  A composer like this is never really done with his works and there is a point where others say its close enough to where it was going to be that this is the best possible version of that work unless further information is learned later and it is still worth hearing though it might be 90% what they would have given us as a first performance version. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 22, 2020, 07:00:23 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 22, 2020, 06:30:36 AM
This is so beautiful.  Mahler 10 ending (Mazzuca ending) in a new recording.
https://youtu.be/WKMlG5czgks?t=4493 (https://youtu.be/WKMlG5czgks?t=4493)

This made me obsessed with Mahler 10 and I looked through the extant material and read about the differences between all the versions which seems to be 13 to date if you include the multiple iterations such as Cook I, II, III.  It seems the general take away is Cooke III is the most researched in that they didn't just review all the extant material and full score of movement 1, 2 but this included the sketches which in some cases the later short score copies incorrectly and Cooke/Matthews bros corrected for.  Barshai was the most informed in that he used Cooke III but revised the sketches and some cases makes judgements based on his experience as a Mahler conductor, what Cooke did, and what he felt Mahler intended based on the sketches.  In other words, everyone after Cooke benefited from the work Cooke did in that they had a completed version to use and compare with.  Mazzuca says he didn't refer to Cooke but returned to the original however it seems there is strong evidence of influence by Cooke.


The benefit of Cooke III is of limited use to anyone who tries to do their own version. (As is any other previous attempt... because you are not allowed to copy. And when word gets out that you are trying to complete the Mahler 10th (or Bruckner 9th), you have a cease and desist letter in your house before you've even put down a note. The authors and their publishers guard their versions like sharks on speed and are litigious and will make sure you don't even accidentally use some solution from a previous version.

All at the expense of the consumer, who would most benefit from an amalgamate "best-of" version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 22, 2020, 07:04:36 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 22, 2020, 07:00:23 AM
The benefit of Cooke III is of limited use to anyone who tries to do their own version. (As is any other previous attempt... because you are not allowed to copy. And when word gets out that you are trying to complete the Mahler 10th (or Bruckner 9th), you have a cease and desist letter in your house before you've even put down a note. The authors and their publishers guard their versions like sharks on speed and are litigious and will make sure you don't even accidentally use some solution from a previous version.

All at the expense of the consumer, who would most benefit from an amalgamate "best-of" version.

I get that music publishers are struggling nearly dead, but it seems unnecessarily punitive to do this in a case where the musical material itself is public domain, and especially because the original editor is gone.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on June 22, 2020, 04:36:48 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 22, 2020, 07:00:23 AM
The benefit of Cooke III is of limited use to anyone who tries to do their own version. (As is any other previous attempt... because you are not allowed to copy. And when word gets out that you are trying to complete the Mahler 10th (or Bruckner 9th), you have a cease and desist letter in your house before you've even put down a note. The authors and their publishers guard their versions like sharks on speed and are litigious and will make sure you don't even accidentally use some solution from a previous version.

All at the expense of the consumer, who would most benefit from an amalgamate "best-of" version.

Damn, I was so much hoping for a musicological response to my post and instead got this irrelevant response. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2020, 07:05:31 PM
Quote from: relm1 on June 22, 2020, 06:30:36 AM
This is so beautiful.  Mahler 10 ending (Mazzuca ending) in a new recording.
https://youtu.be/WKMlG5czgks?t=4493 (https://youtu.be/WKMlG5czgks?t=4493)


Thanks for posting! This disc seems to be a challenge to find for purchase at a decent price, or perhaps I'm not looking in the right areas.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 23, 2020, 02:50:30 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 22, 2020, 04:36:48 PM
Damn, I was so much hoping for a musicological response to my post and instead got this irrelevant response.

How is it irrelevant? To me it seems directly relevant to what you're discussing. You said that everyone after Cooke benefited from Cooke. The response is that in fact people are not allowed to build on previous work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on June 23, 2020, 05:58:25 AM
Quote from: Madiel on June 23, 2020, 02:50:30 AM
How is it irrelevant? To me it seems directly relevant to what you're discussing. You said that everyone after Cooke benefited from Cooke. The response is that in fact people are not allowed to build on previous work.

Nah, I was just in a weird mood yesterday.  Cooke III is absolutely influential regardless of copyright.  One is reacting to it in their own versions and in some cases state that (Barshai) but use their own judgement on when to deviate from it or make a different judgement call when faced with ambiguity. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 27, 2020, 09:24:41 AM
Leon Botstein says some interesting things near the end of an essay on Berg, primarily dealing with the opera Lulu:
Quote from: Leon BotsteinIn the immediate postwar era, while Helene controlled Berg's estate, critical reception focused on his distinctive place as a modernist, though in that regard there were many skeptics.107 But by the time a completed opera version of Lulu was performed in 1979, four major historical shifts had occurred that would ultimately favor the work, rendering irrelevant the misgivings of the late 1940s and early 1950s.108 The first, which began in the mid-1970s, was the turn away from modernism among composers. The residues of Expressionism, tonality, and the sound world of Mahler were revived and young composers embraced them as attuned to the times. Modernism between 1945 and 1975 had failed precisely where Berg had succeeded, in persuading audiences of the necessary link between musical means and expressive intent.

...

The last (and most parochial) shift was an irreversible by-product of the other three: the lasting success of the Mahler revival that began in the late 1950s. It elevated Berg's beloved composer from the margins to the center of public taste, paralleling a reassessment of the history of twentieth-century music in which Shostakovich
would emerge as central and Schoenberg as peripheral.109
Likewise, the drift at the end of the twentieth century toward cultural nostalgia helped spark a revival of interest in Wagnerian music drama and the music of post-Wagnerian late Romanticism. This augured well for a revival of the operas of Zemlinsky and Schreker. Insofar as Lulu rather than Wozzeck evoked that tradition (as would the Lyric Suite and Violin Concerto), its prospects were more promising.110

As many people here probably know, I'm one of those people who sees Schoenberg as central and Shostakovich as peripheral to 20th century music. I've wondered at the fact that so many seem to think of Mahler as primarily a Romantic figure, rather than a Modern one. To me, Mahler's music leads directly to Berg's, and the modern aspects of his writing, from the motivic saturation to the use of irony and satire or the klangfarbenmelodie orchestration that treats every player as a soloist in an ever-shifting kaleidoscope of color, are an inextricable part of his music, inseparable from the substance of the writing.

I understand that many others feel the opposite, that the important thing about Mahler is his Romantic side, and the Modern aspects are either secondary or, perhaps, not connected to the Second Viennese School in any significant way. This is why I often see people say X composer is "like Mahler" and am baffled, because they are discussing music from a completely different perspective that locates Mahler's identity in other aspects of the music. For me, seeing Mahler allied with anti-modernism is baffling.

Which aspects do people here see as important?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on June 27, 2020, 09:47:15 AM
I had to Google klangfarbenmelodie (thanks!) but yes - that is possibly the single most attractive aspect of Mahler's 'style' to me - it gets my attention and keeps hold of it.  I was collecting together various recordings of Symphony 7 Nachtmusik I the other day, for a possible blind listen - and that movement is a great example of this technique (and what I take to be a certain irony as well).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 27, 2020, 10:15:04 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 27, 2020, 09:47:15 AM
I had to Google klangfarbenmelodie (thanks!) but yes - that is possibly the single most attractive aspect of Mahler's 'style' to me - it gets my attention and keeps hold of it.  I was collecting together various recordings of Symphony 7 Nachtmusik I the other day, for a possible blind listen - and that movement is a great example of this technique (and what I take to be a certain irony as well).

If you did that blind listen, I'd be interested to participate. Looking forward to it!

The Nachtmusik movements of the Seventh are wonderful character pieces; did you know he wrote them the same summer as he wrote the finale of the Sixth? I can't imagine much of a greater contrast.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 07:20:49 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2020, 09:24:41 AM
Leon Botstein says some interesting things near the end of an essay on Berg, primarily dealing with the opera Lulu:
As many people here probably know, I'm one of those people who sees Schoenberg as central and Shostakovich as peripheral to 20th century music. I've wondered at the fact that so many seem to think of Mahler as primarily a Romantic figure, rather than a Modern one. To me, Mahler's music leads directly to Berg's, and the modern aspects of his writing, from the motivic saturation to the use of irony and satire or the klangfarbenmelodie orchestration that treats every player as a soloist in an ever-shifting kaleidoscope of color, are an inextricable part of his music, inseparable from the substance of the writing.

I understand that many others feel the opposite, that the important thing about Mahler is his Romantic side, and the Modern aspects are either secondary or, perhaps, not connected to the Second Viennese School in any significant way. This is why I often see people say X composer is "like Mahler" and am baffled, because they are discussing music from a completely different perspective that locates Mahler's identity in other aspects of the music. For me, seeing Mahler allied with anti-modernism is baffling.

Which aspects do people here see as important?

It's not an either/or dichotomy. I certainly don't see the Second Viennese School as divorced from what went before them. But neither do I see them as representing the core of 'Modern' and Shostakovich as some random offshoot. The parallels between Mahler and Schoenberg are obvious but so are the parallels between Mahler and Shostakovich, especially before Shostakovich was forced to change his style.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on June 27, 2020, 10:41:47 PM
Not sure many people listen to music with a sort of musical-historical score card, getting more enjoyment out of it as the composer does more historically 'important' things.

What people respond to (and a lot don't, by the way) is whether a composer (and any creative) is putting himself on the line. That may be in terms of pushing the musical envelope, pushing the language onwards, but then you get a big problem in the twentieth century, when "neo" schools popped up.

Stravinsky and indeed Shostakovich, constantly reinventing their language by borrowing gestures from past masters and putting them in a new frame.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on June 28, 2020, 12:47:04 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2020, 10:15:04 AM
The Nachtmusik movements of the Seventh are wonderful character pieces; did you know he wrote them the same summer as he wrote the finale of the Sixth? I can't imagine much of a greater contrast.

As a way of easing his writer's block, wasn't it?  He was having trouble formulating his 6th Finale, and turned to writing this contrasting material as a form of therapy?

After the 1st movement of the 9th, the Nachtmusik I is my favourite movement in all of Mahler.  But I am a sucker for all forms of nature music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2020, 01:06:35 AM
I have been to the alps many times and have heard cowbells frequently as well but once I stayed at a hut at the end of some valley and in the early evening one got the somewhat disembodied sound not quite localizable cowbells in the distance but not that far away. It was both homely and strange at the same time and I can never hear Mahler's cowbells now without being remined of that particular mood.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on June 28, 2020, 04:44:05 AM
Cowbells heard en masse as in the Alps are a fantasically complex and stimulating sound, especially the traditional squarish bells, not so much the bell-like bells that seem to be more common now - I could listen to them for hours.
I once cycled uphill (that is, up-mountain) on a road with cattle to the left and the right, for a complete surround cowbell experience - the thing is that each individual bell would doppler-shift downward in pitch as I rode past, as I say a fantastically complex uber-chromatic aural stimulus. I wish I had recorded it - though my heavy breathing might have spoiled the effect.

And I once stayed within earshot of the church bells at Beckenried on the south shore of beautiful Lake Lucerne - the entire peal of bells are that same squarish cowbell shape, and typically the highest not would ring first, and then progressively lower and lower notes added into the mix, until finally in the cacophany you get that bellowing booming CLONK like two supertankers colliding - and you look out to check if the church tower is really still standing.
I Googled 'Swiss church bells' looking for a recording of these bells, but all I could find was pages of hate mail by people who couldn't stand the sound of bells ringing at night.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on June 28, 2020, 06:03:21 AM
This is semi-out of topic but I enjoyed this orchestrated version of Mahler's early quartet including the unfinished second movement arranged by Marlijn Helder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=IrWrEs3mGqQ&

Sorry, I'll never learn how to do an embedded youtube video.  >:(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 28, 2020, 06:09:28 AM
Quote from: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 07:20:49 PM
It's not an either/or dichotomy. I certainly don't see the Second Viennese School as divorced from what went before them. But neither do I see them as representing the core of 'Modern' and Shostakovich as some random offshoot. The parallels between Mahler and Schoenberg are obvious but so are the parallels between Mahler and Shostakovich, especially before Shostakovich was forced to change his style.

I don't see how any of this contradicts what I said. Shostakovich was a fine composer, and of course his music also responded to Mahler's. As I've said before on this site, I think the Shostakovich Fourth Symphony is one of the best musical responses to Mahler's Sixth, along with Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra. Nor do I think of Shostakovich as a "random offshoot" of 20th century music. He too was clearly influenced by Schoenberg, Berg, and Stravinsky (and Hindemith).

Quote from: Herman on June 27, 2020, 10:41:47 PM
Not sure many people listen to music with a sort of musical-historical score card, getting more enjoyment out of it as the composer does more historically 'important' things.

Nor do I.  I don't think Shostakovich was less important because his music was less innovative. I enjoy the conservative music of Franz Schmidt (far more conservative for its time than Shostakovich) and actually I prefer Prokofiev, due in part to the latter's melodic gift.

Quote from: Herman on June 27, 2020, 10:41:47 PMWhat people respond to (and a lot don't, by the way) is whether a composer (and any creative) is putting himself on the line. That may be in terms of pushing the musical envelope, pushing the language onwards, but then you get a big problem in the twentieth century, when "neo" schools popped up.

Stravinsky and indeed Shostakovich, constantly reinventing their language by borrowing gestures from past masters and putting them in a new frame.

Stravinsky is absolutely at the core of my personal 20th century canon. The same language of reinventing gestures from past masters could be equally applied to Schoenberg, I feel.



My main point with responding to Botstein's "view of history that sees Shostakovich as central and Schoenberg as peripheral" is that I think sometimes people hear Mahler as leading, not to Shostakovich or Britten, but to a host of very conservative post-romantics like Schmidt (who, despite my enjoyment of his music, absolutely does not bear any resemblance to Mahler).

I'm still interested in hearing from both of you, though. Which elements in Mahler seem to form the core of his identity to you? My main question wasn't about history or influence, but about the parts of his music that are most characteristic.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 28, 2020, 06:11:02 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 28, 2020, 01:06:35 AM
I have been to the alps many times and have heard cowbells frequently as well but once I stayed at a hut at the end of some valley and in the early evening one got the somewhat disembodied sound not quite localizable cowbells in the distance but not that far away. It was both homely and strange at the same time and I can never hear Mahler's cowbells now without being remined of that particular mood.

That was exactly what he was trying to evoke, that sense of distance and isolation which one can feel upon hearing some barely recognizable familiar sound without seeing the source.

So few writers on the Sixth Symphony seem to mention the way that the cowbells return at the climax of the movement, as if in a mocking reversal of their appearance at the E major section, where they were allied with that moment of transcendent tranquility, but to me it's one of the many fascinating touches of Mahler's music, where the meaning of a particular timbre shifts over time and takes on greater nuance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on June 28, 2020, 04:22:23 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 28, 2020, 06:09:28 AM
I don't see how any of this contradicts what I said. Shostakovich was a fine composer, and of course his music also responded to Mahler's. As I've said before on this site, I think the Shostakovich Fourth Symphony is one of the best musical responses to Mahler's Sixth, along with Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra. Nor do I think of Shostakovich as a "random offshoot" of 20th century music. He too was clearly influenced by Schoenberg, Berg, and Stravinsky (and Hindemith).

You described Shostakovich as peripheral.

Sorry, but conversations with you regularly devolve into you rejecting every attempt to understand what you're saying as inadequate. I shan't bother playing along on this occasion, because it really isn't worth the energy. I will inevitably get it 'wrong' as I apparently already have. Because you say all this after saying Shostakovich was peripheral... I'm not chasing the ball.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on June 28, 2020, 11:37:15 PM
Mahlerian took up "peripheral" from a quote. "paralleling a reassessment of the history of twentieth-century music in which Shostakovich
would emerge as central and Schoenberg as peripheral." This quote is IMO an obvious exaggeration. It seems clearly true to me that until the late 20th century Shostakovich had been in fact considered peripheral and Schoenberg central. This was not only rooted in the "modernists" dominance in musicology as among critics and musicians not totally on board with the modernist view Shostakovich was often also considered peripheral, or simply ignored, sometimes for political reasons. (Counting recordings and performances in the West, I am pretty certain that Prokofiev easily beats DSCH until the early 1980s or even early 90s) Boulez was no champion of DSCH but neither was Karl Boehm. While there has been a huge rise in popularity of Shostakovich in the last decades and he is no longer seen as peripheral, I very much doubt that the inversion Botstein claims has generally taken place in musical history and musicology, it does seem a minority opinion. Central does not just mean that someone wrote some important music (this seems hardly denied, so in that respect there was a revaluation of Shostakovich) but also that this music was extremely influential for the further development of musical history etc. It would be interesting how Botstein would back up such a claim wrt to the relative positions of Schoenberg and DSCH. So Botstein has a very bold thesis here whereas Mahlerian is basically sticking to the communis opinio of Western musicology (and many Western musicians) that prevailed until very recently.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Total Rafa on June 29, 2020, 06:50:02 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on June 27, 2020, 09:24:41 AM
As many people here probably know, I'm one of those people who sees Schoenberg as central and Shostakovich as peripheral to 20th century music.

[...]

I understand that many others feel the opposite, that the important thing about Mahler is his Romantic side, and the Modern aspects are either secondary or, perhaps, not connected to the Second Viennese School in any significant way. This is why I often see people say X composer is "like Mahler" and am baffled, because they are discussing music from a completely different perspective that locates Mahler's identity in other aspects of the music. For me, seeing Mahler allied with anti-modernism is baffling.

Which aspects do people here see as important?

Well I think that the 'modern' aspects of Mahler's music are quite important in assessing his significance and influence.

Having said that, I find the supposed link between Mahler's music and the Second Viennese School to be highly flattering to the latter group of composers. Similar in a way to the 'Brahms the progressive' thesis. Composers like Schoenberg felt like they had to keep on making the point that they were continuing some sort of tradition, as if to attach greater importance to their own music. For me, Mahler's mastery of form, expression, orchestration, aesthetic, structure, etc. is on a completely higher level, irrespective of whether his 'successors' were writing tonal or 12-tone music.

I hadn't previously read much on the influence of the Second Viennese School on Shostakovich, something which doesn't strike me as particularly obvious. Any attempt to cast Shostakovich aside to any kind of 'periphery' presumably is largely down to his persistence with a tonal language deep into the 20th century, something which clearly wouldn't sit with Boulez and other 'modernists'.

The lasting appeal and greatness of Shostakovich's music transcends any and all trivial debate.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerian on June 29, 2020, 07:36:22 AM
Quote from: Total Rafa on June 29, 2020, 06:50:02 AM
Well I think that the 'modern' aspects of Mahler's music are quite important in assessing his significance and influence.

Having said that, I find the supposed link between Mahler's music and the Second Viennese School to be highly flattering to the latter group of composers. Similar in a way to the 'Brahms the progressive' thesis. Composers like Schoenberg felt like they had to keep on making the point that they were continuing some sort of tradition, as if to attach greater importance to their own music. For me, Mahler's mastery of form, expression, orchestration, aesthetic, structure, etc. is on a completely higher level, irrespective of whether his 'successors' were writing tonal or 12-tone music.

The link is not at all incidental; the Second Viennese School were heavily linked to Mahler in technique and expression, and they were the only ones who actually appreciated Mahler's music at a time when the wider musical world thought of him as either an incomprehensible noisemaker or a creator of overblown bombastic monstrosities (to list only the views that didn't openly express anti-Semitism).

Schoenberg's Society for Private Musical Performances programmed Mahler often, and he was likewise to be a part of the famous Skandalkonzert of 1913 if Berg's songs hadn't been interrupted by rioting. Webern conducted a performance of Mahler's Sixth in the 1930s that was supposedly quite revelatory, and Schoenberg conducted the slow movement from the Second in a performance that survives in recording.

On top of that, one can point to all kinds of reflections of Mahler in the use of particular timbres in the Second Viennese School, from the guitar and mandolin in Webern's Five Pieces Op. 10 or Schoenberg's Serenade to the hammerblows of Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra, aside from the general soloistic character mentioned above, which contemporary critics linked to Mahler even while he was still alive. Mahler himself was good friends with Schoenberg (although they clashed often, as one might expect from two such egos), and purchased a whole bunch of his paintings anonymously simply to support his struggling friend.

Naturally, the music of any composer is not important because of its links to earlier important music, and none of this music would have had the staying power it has if it weren't successful on its own merits.

Quote from: Total Rafa on June 29, 2020, 06:50:02 AMI hadn't previously read much on the influence of the Second Viennese School on Shostakovich, something which doesn't strike me as particularly obvious. Any attempt to cast Shostakovich aside to any kind of 'periphery' presumably is largely down to his persistence with a tonal language deep into the 20th century, something which clearly wouldn't sit with Boulez and other 'modernists'.

I don't consider Shostakovich's music any more tonal than the later Schoenberg. While he uses a lot of triads and diatonic elements, his music doesn't employ functional harmony except for occasional effect (which one can say of the later Schoenberg just as easily).

Anyway, Shostakovich admired Berg his whole life and said so frequently, despite the official Soviet line that disparaged the 12-tone method as bourgeois formalism. One of his early commentaries has him listing Schoenberg as well amid his foremost influences:

Quote from: WikiArticles Shostakovich published in 1934 and 1935 cited Berg, Schoenberg, Krenek, Hindemith, "and especially Stravinsky" among his influences.

Quote from: Total Rafa on June 29, 2020, 06:50:02 AMThe lasting appeal and greatness of Shostakovich's music transcends any and all trivial debate.

I wasn't attempting to disparage Shostakovich. I was simply saying that he's not central to my personal view of the 20th century. Some of his music is quite good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 06, 2020, 01:27:59 PM
Happy birthday Gustav!
(Also happens to be mine!)  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 06, 2020, 03:35:47 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 06, 2020, 01:27:59 PM
Happy birthday Gustav!
(Also happens to be mine!)  :)

Happy birthday. It's nice sharing your birthday with a great master—I share mine with Bob Dylan, which I always thought was pretty cool  ;D

I'm going to listen to a Mahler symphony in the morning, haven't decided which... likely 6, 8 or 9.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 06, 2020, 07:23:58 PM
Ah yes, it's Mahler's birthday tomorrow. I guess I should listen to something, too. ;) I'll probably listen to the 3rd and then one of his song cycles. After this, I think I'll listen to his 7th since I've been meaning to swing back around to this symphony for quite some time.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 21, 2020, 02:58:21 AM
I have a question about Barbirolli's 9th. I have an old CD from French EMI:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JZarhot4L._SY500_.jpg)

I think the sound leaves a bit to be desired. Is there any remaster on either the GRoC or the more recent Warner reissues of this that would justify the upgrade?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 22, 2020, 11:17:31 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2020, 02:58:21 AM
I think the sound leaves a bit to be desired. Is there any remaster on either the GRoC or the more recent Warner reissues of this that would justify the upgrade?

I had the old CD, and then the GRoC. To my ears the GRoC was an improvement (a greater sense of ambience and presence). A subtle difference, but it adds up as you listen and I think it's worth replacing.

Haven't heard the Warner.

BTW here's a review that backs me up:

"While the original CD incarnation of the Barbirolli (on EMI 63115) was good this one is smoother, richer, fuller and does not tire the ear. More important, I can now hear and appreciate individual instruments as the parts relate to the whole. This is true of so many places that specific references mean little, but I found myself saying "yes" as I heard them."

http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/e/emi67926a.php
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scion7 on October 12, 2020, 02:52:20 AM
re: Titan (tone poem)

Stated to be inspired by Jean Paul's (Johann Paul Friedrich Richter, d. 1825) multi-volume novel of the same name.
The novel is Bible-length.  I cannot read German, so must rely on English translations . . .

QuoteThe old man spoke, behind the speech-grating of sleep, with dead ones who had journeyed with him over the morning meadows of youth, and addressed with heavy lip the dead Prince and his spouse. How sublimely did the curtain of the venerable countenance, pictured over with a long life, hang down before the pastoral world of youth dancing behind it, and how touchingly did the gray form roam round with its youthful crown in the cold evening dew of life, taking it for morning-dew, and looking toward the east, and toward the sun! The youth ventured only to touch lovingly a lock of the old man; he meant to leave him, in order not to alarm him with a strange form, before the rising moon should have touched his eyelids and awakened him. Only he would first crown the teacher of his loved one with the twigs of a neighboring laurel. When he came back from it, the moon had already penetrated with her radiance through the great eyelids, and the old man opened them before the exalted youth, who, with the glowing rosy moon of his countenance, glorified by the moon overhead, stood before him like a genius with the crown. "Justus!" cried the old man, "is it thou?" He took him for the old Prince, who, with just such blooming cheeks and open eyes, had passed before him in the under-world of dreams.

But he soon came back out of the dreamy Elysium into the botanical, and knew even Albano's name. The Count, with open mien, grasped his hands, and said to him how long and profoundly he had respected him. Spener answered in few and quiet words, as old men do who have seen everything on the earth so often. The glory of the moonlight flowed down now on the tall form, and the quietly open eye was illumined,—an eye which not so much penetrates as lets everything penetrate it. The almost cold stillness of the features, the youthful gait of the tall form, which bore its years upright as a crown upon the head, not as a burden upon the back, more as flowers than as fruit, the singular mixture of former manly ardor and of womanly tenderness,—all this called up before Albano the image of a prophet of the Eastern land. That broad stream which came roaring down through the alps of youth, glides now calmly and smoothly through its pastures; but throw rocks before it, and again it starts up roaring.

. . . this hits me as more in mood to Der Abschied than anything else.
Paul is regarded as one of Germany's best writers.  Has anyone here dug into this book - what is your verdict?  It would be a long endeavor to read it all. Is it satisfying?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on October 12, 2020, 03:09:36 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on October 12, 2020, 02:52:20 AM
re: Titan (tone poem)

Stated to be inspired by Jean Paul's (Johann Paul Friedrich Richter, d. 1825) multi-volume novel of the same name.
The novel is Bible-length.  I cannot read German, so must rely on English translations . . .

. . . this hits me as more in mood to Der Abschied than anything else.
Paul is regarded as one of Germany's best writers.  Has anyone here dug into this book - what is your verdict?  It would be a long endeavor to read it all. Is it satisfying?

I haven't read the novel but I have read Reading Mahler: German Culture and Jewish Identity in Fin-de-Siecle Vienna by Carl Niekerk. Niekerk discusses Jean-Paul and Titan at some length, including a synopsis. He also discusses E.T.A Hoffmann, the other author who influenced Mahler in his symphonic poem. Despite the obvious literary references to Jean Paul, Mahler later denied any link to Titan the novel but then he scrapped all the literary paraphenalia, including the title, when the revised the work.

The novel seems too daunting for me to even attempt.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on December 04, 2020, 05:17:24 AM
I wonder if the sixth movement of Symphony No. 3 would have ended the way it does if Mahler had decided to keep the seventh movement which became the Fourth Symphony's finale? Also, if Heavenly Life was kept in the Third Symphony, would Mahler simply have had the contralto who appears in mvts. 4 and 5 sing it instead of the soprano who sings it in the 4th Symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 04, 2020, 09:51:33 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 04, 2020, 05:17:24 AM
I wonder if the sixth movement of Symphony No. 3 would have ended the way it does if Mahler had decided to keep the seventh movement which became the Fourth Symphony's finale? Also, if Heavenly Life was kept in the Third Symphony, would Mahler simply have had the contralto who appears in mvts. 4 and 5 sing it instead of the soprano who sings it in the 4th Symphony.

I'm not sure, but what Mahler decided to do ended up making the 3rd a masterpiece, IMHO. Glad his clear thinking prevailed!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 03, 2021, 08:25:27 PM
I've just been listening to the Sixth, Barbirolli with the New Philharmonia. I first listened to the Sixth in that recording in the late 70s when I was a teenager (of course I've listen to it and other recordings in the interim!). When I first listened to it the finale seemed to last forever, now when I listen to it it seems as brisk and quite-the-right-length as a Haydn finale!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on March 04, 2021, 05:51:49 AM
I enjoyed listening to Vanska's new M10.  Very clear and precise audio and playing, somewhat lacking in the Bernsteinian sweep I was hoping for but solid overall.  I was thinking while listening, performing a great Mahler symphony must take so much care and rehearsal.  Almost like each phrase needing to be sculpted, not just read correctly. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on March 04, 2021, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 04, 2021, 05:51:49 AM
I enjoyed listening to Vanska's new M10.  Very clear and precise audio and playing, somewhat lacking in the Bernsteinian sweep I was hoping for but solid overall.  I was thinking while listening, performing a great Mahler symphony must take so much care and rehearsal. Almost like each phrase needing to be sculpted, not just read correctly.

Supposedly conductors vary in their approach, but Barbirolli said that it took him one year to prepare for a good Mahler symphony performance.

BTW I have a few of Barbirolli Mahler recordings, but haven't yet checked, if several performances by him exist of the same work; if so, it would be interesting if there were marked differences between them, like for instance between his early and later recordings generally, say in Sibelius' 2nd ... And it would somehow erode his claim, if he didn't reach a conclusive idea about the work anyway ...

EDIT: there's at least a Mahler 6th also with the BPO, besides the more well-known New Philharmonia one, but I haven't heard it. The biggest differences would probably be between early and late Barbirolli. There are very likely further examples. BBC Legends a good place to look, I guess.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on March 04, 2021, 01:03:39 PM
The EMI M6 should have the middle movements in the order Barbirolli wanted (Andante-Scherzo) but for whatever reason it was issued the other way around. Other live performances of the work by Barbirolli, including the Berlin one, have the Andante first. Besides that, I can't say the Berlin performance scores over the studio one in any way, certainly not in quality of playing or sound. Barbirolli's Mahler is an acquired taste for some, indispensable for others.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on March 04, 2021, 01:45:29 PM
Quote from: André on March 04, 2021, 01:03:39 PM
The EMI M6 should have the middle movements in the order Barbirolli wanted (Andante-Scherzo) but for whatever reason it was issued the other way around. Other live performances of the work by Barbirolli, including the Berlin one, have the Andante first. Besides that, I can't say the Berlin performance scores over the studio one in any way, certainly not in quality of playing or sound. Barbirolli's Mahler is an acquired taste for some, indispensable for others.

OK, thank you for the information. For me, he often tends to be too slow in Mahler, but I've kept the stuff anyway, also for a possible, revised opinion (1,5,6,9 and some song cycles).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on March 04, 2021, 04:15:49 PM
Quote from: MusicTurner on March 04, 2021, 09:32:18 AM
Supposedly conductors vary in their approach, but Barbirolli said that it took him one year to prepare for a good Mahler symphony performance.

BTW I have a few of Barbirolli Mahler recordings, but haven't yet checked, if several performances by him exist of the same work; if so, it would be interesting if there were marked differences between them, like for instance between his early and later recordings generally, say in Sibelius' 2nd ... And it would somehow erode his claim, if he didn't reach a conclusive idea about the work anyway ...

EDIT: there's at least a Mahler 6th also with the BPO, besides the more well-known New Philharmonia one, but I haven't heard it. The biggest differences would probably be between early and late Barbirolli. There are very likely further examples. BBC Legends a good place to look, I guess.

But that's the conductor needing a year.  Not the same as rehearsal time.  For example, Dudamel did the 9 symphonies in a month with the LA Philharmonic.  He might have spent a year or 10 years before but they didn't have that time to rehearse!  Of the concerts I attended, they were masterful so it wasn't just a rush job either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 05, 2021, 12:29:44 AM
Quote from: MusicTurner on March 04, 2021, 09:32:18 AM
Supposedly conductors vary in their approach, but Barbirolli said that it took him one year to prepare for a good Mahler symphony performance.

BTW I have a few of Barbirolli Mahler recordings, but haven't yet checked, if several performances by him exist of the same work; if so, it would be interesting if there were marked differences between them, like for instance between his early and later recordings generally, say in Sibelius' 2nd ... And it would somehow erode his claim, if he didn't reach a conclusive idea about the work anyway ...

EDIT: there's at least a Mahler 6th also with the BPO, besides the more well-known New Philharmonia one, but I haven't heard it. The biggest differences would probably be between early and late Barbirolli. There are very likely further examples. BBC Legends a good place to look, I guess.

There are three Barbirolli recordings of Mahler 6 available. The EMI studio recording, originally issued with Scherzo-Andante against Barbirolli's wishes: I have it in a two-disc format making it difficult to play in the correct order. There are two live performances, both on Testament, with the Berlin Philharmonic (1966) and the New Philharmonia (1967).  Both are brisker than the studio performance which I find preferable and there is nothing to choose between them except the NPO recording is in stereo.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on March 05, 2021, 05:54:03 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 05, 2021, 12:29:44 AM
There are three Barbirolli recordings of Mahler 6 available. The EMI studio recording, originally issued with Scherzo-Andante against Barbirolli's wishes: I have it in a two-disc format making it difficult to play in the correct order. There are two live performances, both on Testament, with the Berlin Philharmonic (1966) and the New Philharmonia (1967).  Both are brisker than the studio performance which I find preferable and there is nothing to choose between them except the NPO recording is in stereo.

I believe Mahler recordings are best when they are from a single concert.  The nature of the music and its meticulous phrasing is such that even the same conductor with the same orchestra can have different results on different days.  I know the MTT/SFO cycle recorded several days of concerts of a given work and edited them to provide a cleaned up listening experience but at the cost of spontaneity.  I don't mind if 90% of the audio is from a single performance and the orchestra does a patch up of flubs and coughs, etc., since the that's like patching holes on the wall without interfering with the architecture, but when they use bar 1 to 23 from Friday's concert, bar 24 to 30 from Saturday's, Bar 31 to 33 from Sunday's, bar 34 to 41 from Friday, etc., etc., you don't really get a homogeneous performance even though it might be more correct and Mahler suffers from the result more than other composers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: 5against4 on March 10, 2021, 12:31:48 AM
(cross-posting this from the Great Recordings and Reviews thread, in the hope one of you can help!)

i've recently finished journeying through Simon Rattle's EMI box set of all the Mahler Symphonies (https://www.discogs.com/Mahler-Simon-Rattle-Berliner-Philharmoniker-City-Of-Birmingham-Symphony-Orchestra-Wiener-Philharmoni/release/15643440), and was struck by an oddity that occurs on one of the final discs. Tagged onto the end of the Das Klagende Lied disc, there's a 3-minute 'extract' from Der Abschied featuring Anne Sofie von Otter. The complete version of Das Lied Von Der Erde is on the next disc and features Thomas Hampson and Peter Seiffert, so it's left me wondering about that tantalising 3-minute recording.

The same extract is included on one of Simon Rattle's 'Leaving Home' discs (https://www.discogs.com/Simon-Rattle-City-Of-Birmingham-Symphony-Orchestra-Leaving-Home-1-An-Introduction-To-20th-Century-Mu/release/8625754) (accompanying the TV series), but that's all i can find. There doesn't appear to have ever been a complete release of Das Lied Von Der Erde featuring von Otter with the CBSO and Simon Rattle.

Does anyone know anything more about this - perhaps a recording i've missed? Or maybe that extract was recorded specifically for the TV series?
It's such a gorgeous 3-minute clip that it left me gagging to hear them do a complete performance!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 10, 2021, 12:50:26 AM
Quote from: 5against4 on March 10, 2021, 12:31:48 AM
(cross-posting this from the Great Recordings and Reviews thread, in the hope one of you can help!)

i've recently finished journeying through Simon Rattle's EMI box set of all the Mahler Symphonies (https://www.discogs.com/Mahler-Simon-Rattle-Berliner-Philharmoniker-City-Of-Birmingham-Symphony-Orchestra-Wiener-Philharmoni/release/15643440), and was struck by an oddity that occurs on one of the final discs. Tagged onto the end of the Das Klagende Lied disc, there's a 3-minute 'extract' from Der Abschied featuring Anne Sofie von Otter. The complete version of Das Lied Von Der Erde is on the next disc and features Thomas Hampson and Peter Seiffert, so it's left me wondering about that tantalising 3-minute recording.

The same extract is included on one of Simon Rattle's 'Leaving Home' discs (https://www.discogs.com/Simon-Rattle-City-Of-Birmingham-Symphony-Orchestra-Leaving-Home-1-An-Introduction-To-20th-Century-Mu/release/8625754) (accompanying the TV series), but that's all i can find. There doesn't appear to have ever been a complete release of Das Lied Von Der Erde featuring von Otter with the CBSO and Simon Rattle.

Does anyone know anything more about this - perhaps a recording i've missed? Or maybe that extract was recorded specifically for the TV series?
It's such a gorgeous 3-minute clip that it left me gagging to hear them do a complete performance!

That is interesting. I have the Rattle/CBSO recording of DKL as a separate disc and it has no extras.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: 5against4 on March 10, 2021, 12:57:20 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 10, 2021, 12:50:26 AM
That is interesting. I have the Rattle/CBSO recording of DKL as a separate disc and it has no extras.
i'm guessing they included it in the box set to be as 'complete' as possible as regards to recordings by Rattle. But it's kind of odd to have just three minutes of a 30-minute song! And, as i say, it's gorgeous - so it just leaves you desperate to hear the whole thing!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 10, 2021, 12:59:45 AM
Quote from: 5against4 on March 10, 2021, 12:57:20 AM
i'm guessing they included it in the box set to be as 'complete' as possible as regards to recordings by Rattle. But it's kind of odd to have just three minutes of a 30-minute song! And, as i say, it's gorgeous - so it just leaves you desperate to hear the whole thing!

As far as I can determine von Otter hasn't recorded Das Lied von der Erde with anybody. A pity as she has recorded quite a lot of Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: 5against4 on March 10, 2021, 01:10:06 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 10, 2021, 12:59:45 AM
As far as I can determine von Otter hasn't recorded Das Lied von der Erde with anybody. A pity as she has recorded quite a lot of Mahler.

Blimey, it didn't occur to me that she would never have recorded Das Lied with anyone!

But it looks like you're right. Apart from two performances of Das Lied featuring her in the Berlin Phil Digital Concert Hall (one with Abbado (https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2922), the other with Rattle (https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2493)), i can't find any other recordings listed.

Which only makes that 3-minute extract all the more puzzling!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 10, 2021, 01:18:20 AM
Quote from: 5against4 on March 10, 2021, 01:10:06 AM
Blimey, it didn't occur to me that she would never have recorded Das Lied with anyone!

But it looks like you're right. Apart from two performances of Das Lied featuring her in the Berlin Phil Digital Concert Hall (one with Abbado (https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2922), the other with Rattle (https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2493)), i can't find any other recordings listed.

Which only makes that 3-minute extract all the more puzzling!

I recently had a free subscription to the BPO Digital Concert Hall but didn't notice those performances in the archive. I will have to remember to look up those performances if I get the chance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2021, 11:49:05 AM
Quote from: 5against4 on March 10, 2021, 01:10:06 AM
Blimey, it didn't occur to me that she would never have recorded Das Lied with anyone!

But it looks like you're right. Apart from two performances of Das Lied featuring her in the Berlin Phil Digital Concert Hall (one with Abbado (https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2922), the other with Rattle (https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2493)), i can't find any other recordings listed.

Which only makes that 3-minute extract all the more puzzling!

Yeah, to my knowledge, she's never been a featured soloist in Das Lied on record, which is a shame, because I do admire her voice and musicality.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on March 10, 2021, 03:54:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 10, 2021, 11:49:05 AM
Yeah, to my knowledge, she's never been a featured soloist in Das Lied on record, which is a shame, because I do admire her voice and musicality.

Why would you say that if there is a link to a video of her performing as soloist with Berlin/Rattle above? 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: 5against4 on March 10, 2021, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 10, 2021, 03:54:03 PM
Why would you say that if there is a link to a video of her performing as soloist with Berlin/Rattle above?

Well of course, the key word here is record (i.e. not video), and in any case my query was about her performing with the CBSO, not Berlin. Strange she never recorded an album of this piece.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on March 10, 2021, 06:00:43 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 10, 2021, 03:54:03 PM
Why would you say that if there is a link to a video of her performing as soloist with Berlin/Rattle above?

Record not video.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 11, 2021, 01:31:12 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 10, 2021, 03:54:03 PM
Why would you say that if there is a link to a video of her performing as soloist with Berlin/Rattle above?

There isn't a link. To access the concert you have to subscribe to the Digital Concert Hall.

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/home
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 11, 2021, 03:28:10 AM
This is different, even unexpected!

The U.S. Navy Concert Band:


https://www.youtube.com/v/Dcua8t6J7bE
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on March 11, 2021, 03:50:06 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 11, 2021, 03:28:10 AM
This is different, even unexpected!

The U.S. Navy Concert Band:


https://www.youtube.com/v/Dcua8t6J7bE

But nearer to what Mahler wanted than we usually hear. He used a chamber orchestra though slightly larger than the one here. Also he had this song sung by a baritone, Friedrich Weidermann.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on March 11, 2021, 04:29:48 AM
Quote from: Biffo on March 11, 2021, 03:50:06 AM
But nearer to what Mahler wanted than we usually. hear. He used a chamber orchestra though slightly larger than the one here. Also he had this song sung by a baritone, Friedrich Weidermann.


True, and I found my own impression of this rather interesting, for I was reminded more and more of the Schoenberg of the Second String Quartet.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 20, 2021, 09:53:04 AM
Haven't thought about getting a new Mahler recording in awhile, but I'm definitely thinking about this one. Coming in June, Gustavo Dudamel and the Los Angeles Philharmonic in Mahler 8, recorded at Walt Disney Concert Hall in May 2019 as the season finale. Sounds like the sonics could be excellent. More info here:

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-news/gustavo-dudamel-mahler-symphony-8/

(https://www.udiscovermusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Dudamel__Mahler8_cover.jpg)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 20, 2021, 10:50:00 AM
Weird the soloist singers aren't named.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2021, 11:54:09 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 20, 2021, 10:50:00 AM
Weird the soloist singers aren't named.

As if the only name of any importance is Dudamel's
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 20, 2021, 12:56:11 PM
It's one of those Eighths that goes for the maximum largest choir, which isn't necessarily better.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2021, 12:57:33 PM
Quote from: Herman on May 20, 2021, 12:56:11 PM
It's one of those Eighths that goes for the maximum largest choir, which isn't necessarily better.



Truly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on May 20, 2021, 12:58:38 PM
Very recently I objected to this:

(https://img.discogs.com/B2jWasriBRi89chC9pJuF6Z9iH0=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-7550878-1492322998-4341.jpeg.jpg)

In both cases, a shamefully egotistic behaviour.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 20, 2021, 01:03:22 PM
Quote from: Herman on May 20, 2021, 10:50:00 AM
Weird the soloist singers aren't named.

I agree, especially since after looking at the list (below), there are some excellent ones.

https://www.laphil.com/events/performances/185/2019-05-30/dudamel-conducts-mahlers-eighth

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 20, 2021, 11:54:09 AM
As if the only name of any importance is Dudamel's

Yes. I do like him, but sometimes think his "handlers" go for the cult of personality a bit too much. He's actually quite a thoughtful musician, but sometimes all that gets a bit buried.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on May 20, 2021, 02:06:35 PM
Quote from: Brewski on May 20, 2021, 09:53:04 AM
Haven't thought about getting a new Mahler recording in awhile, but I'm definitely thinking about this one. Coming in June, Gustavo Dudamel and the Los Angeles Philharmonic in Mahler 8, recorded at Walt Disney Concert Hall in May 2019 as the season finale. Sounds like the sonics could be excellent. More info here:

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-news/gustavo-dudamel-mahler-symphony-8/

(https://www.udiscovermusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Dudamel__Mahler8_cover.jpg)

--Bruce

Perhaps my dream has come true and this is an instrumental only, non vocal performance of Mahler's 8th. The Symphony of a Thousand without words!!! Yay! 🥂  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on May 20, 2021, 06:32:02 PM
I have his DVD of M8. It's a decent performance, but nothing more than that.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51p1SZ5AfsL.jpg)

His M9 recording otoh is a top tier performance well worth getting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: North Star on May 20, 2021, 07:21:45 PM
Quote from: Herman on May 20, 2021, 10:50:00 AM
Weird the soloist singers aren't named.

Actually a reasonably common practice to leave most of the names for the back cover, as with so many names in this work you need a magnifying glass to read them anyway.

(https://img.discogs.com/1f5H_G6XsgZjyPVR4aqAMcBGJz8=/fit-in/600x592/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-8353905-1563643271-6608.jpeg.jpg) (https://e.snmc.io/i/600/s/bf88ce89258342aecf532ccef9e2d74c/1623804) (https://i.imgur.com/ZAWoIxg.jpg) (https://static.universal-music.de/asset_new/131977/195/view/mahler-symphony-no-8-0028947765970.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on May 20, 2021, 11:21:12 PM
Quote from: North Star on May 20, 2021, 07:21:45 PM
Actually a reasonably common practice to leave most of the names for the back cover, as with so many names in this work you need a magnifying glass to read them anyway.

I was talking about the link

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-news/gustavo-dudamel-mahler-symphony-8/

which doesn't mention any soloists either.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on May 21, 2021, 08:36:42 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 20, 2021, 11:21:12 PM
I was talking about the link

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-news/gustavo-dudamel-mahler-symphony-8/

which doesn't mention any soloists either.

The soloists are listed about a third of the way into the article. For anyone wondering, they are:

Tamara Wilson, Leah Crocetto, Erin Morley, Mihoko Fujimura, Tamara Mumford, Simon O'Neill, Ryan McKinny and Morris Robinson.

LKB
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2021, 03:18:47 AM
A fairly mammoth survey of Mahler cycles from Hurwitz.  I do wonder quite how much of these things he is shooting from the hip of memory.  Given the quantity of material - videoed/written that he produces by my reckoning there are simply not the hours in the day for detailed/multiple listenings before formulating opinions.  I'm not saying I don't think he has heard the discs but I wonder how recently before recording these talks....

The usual pops at the "the British Critical Establishment" are tedious - a kind of QAnon does music criticism - the faintly unknown power base pulling strings behind the scenes.  Also, why does he delight in mangling pronunications of titles that are not in English.  But again, once you get past his (for me irritating) manner the content is usually pretty solid.  The main recommendations (to save folk sitting through the 45+ minutes) are;

Bernstein DG & Sony
Bertini EMI (not sure its been re-released by Warner?)
Gielen/SWR music
Haitink/Phillips (as was)
& top reccomendation Chailly/Decca
Kubelik/DG

honourable mentions to;
Ozawa
Sinopoli
Neumann
Abravanal
Solti(ish)
Abbado(ish)
Boulez
Tennstedt

Dislikes
Svetlanov ("worst ever")
Nott
Stenz
Rattle (big big dislike - "CBSO 2nd rate orchestra.....")
Maazel - especially live Philharmonia
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on July 30, 2021, 04:35:16 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2021, 03:18:47 AM
A fairly mammoth survey of Mahler cycles from Hurwitz.  I do wonder quite how much of these things he is shooting from the hip of memory.  Given the quantity of material - videoed/written that he produces by my reckoning there are simply not the hours in the day for detailed/multiple listenings before formulating opinions.  I'm not saying I don't think he has heard the discs but I wonder how recently before recording these talks....

The usual pops at the "the British Critical Establishment" are tedious - a kind of QAnon does music criticism - the faintly unknown power base pulling strings behind the scenes.  Also, why does he delight in mangling pronunications of titles that are not in English.  But again, once you get past his (for me irritating) manner the content is usually pretty solid.  The main recommendations (to save folk sitting through the 45+ minutes) are;

Bernstein DG & Sony
Bertini EMI (not sure its been re-released by Warner?)
Gielen/SWR music
Haitink/Phillips (as was)
& top reccomendation Chailly/Decca
Kubelik/DG

honourable mentions to;
Ozawa
Sinopoli
Neumann
Abravanal
Solti(ish)
Abbado(ish)
Boulez
Tennstedt

Dislikes
Svetlanov ("worst ever")
Nott
Stenz
Rattle (big big dislike - "CBSO 2nd rate orchestra.....")
Maazel - especially live Philharmonia

I don't have the intention of watching his video, in part because of his irritating mannerisms and in part because he has become so predictable. I note that among his top recommendations I ended selling the Bertini and Chailly cycles - solid but all too often faceless. I've retained Haitink, Bernstein Sony, Inbal, Abravanel and Kubelik DG as well as individual issues of some of the others. I wouldn't touch Rattle with a ten-foot pole. His highly touted CBSO Resurrection is highly regarded by many here, but to me it's an overblown caricature.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 30, 2021, 04:43:23 AM
I certainly disagree with him about Nott. It's a solid piece of musicianship, even if it isn't top tier. No reason to dislike it.

Rattle isn't always bad, but a horrendous Third and much of the rest just middling. The Tenth (with Berlin, not Birmingham) is the only installment of his cycle I would recommend.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2021, 05:01:41 AM
Quote from: André on July 30, 2021, 04:35:16 AM
I don't have the intention of watching his video, in part because of his irritating mannerisms and in part because he has become so predictable. I note that among his top recommendations I ended selling the Bertini and Chailly cycles - solid but all too often faceless. I've retained Haitink, Bernstein Sony, Inbal, Abravanel and Kubelik DG as well as individual issues of some of the others. I wouldn't touch Rattle with a ten-foot pole. His highly touted CBSO Resurrection is highly regarded by many here, but to me it's an overblown caricature.

Inbal didn't get a mention at all - good, bad or indifferent!  He made a big thing of saying there no point to 2nd tier orchestras playing Mahler if you could have the best.  I think that's a sweeping generalisation.  For example - I dipped into a really cheap/"2nd tier" recording of Anton Nanut in Ljubljana doing No.6.  I'm not making any absurd claims for that disc but actually its a rather compelling performance - emotionally and technically quite raw but not at all badly played and very dramatic.  In fact a performance I was glad to have revisited.....

Chailly I have and do enjoy the actual sound of it - but I'm not sure a single performance would be my go-to version.  Safe and slick is probably my overall view....
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on July 30, 2021, 05:25:06 AM
Indeed, RS ! Second rate orchestras can be hugely involved in a Mahler performance whereas some first rate orchestras sound just plain bored and boring. As an example, the two most spellbinding Mahler fourths I've heard are from 1950s german radio broadcasts - second rate orchestras and mono sound be damned. They are by Karl Rankl and Willem van Otterloo, conductors no one would label as mahlerians of the front rank.

The trick with Mahler is to observe all the tiny orchestral details, bring forth transparent textures and set the whole thing in a flowing, naturally paced narrative. Grand Statements and a cult of the Big Sound are Mahler's worst enemies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 30, 2021, 05:43:34 AM
Compared to Chicago, Vienna etc. one could regard not only Birmingham and Utah but also Cologne, SWR and Bavarian Radio could be considered 1b orchestras and this apparently did not keep Hurwitz. Of course, nowadays and even 40-50 years ago there were some very good orchestras beyond the most famous ones.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 30, 2021, 07:44:22 AM
Chailly is his top?  It is a little bland to be the pinnacle of sets.  My current favorite is Kubelik.  But hardly matters when I mostly stream, easier to think outside the box.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 30, 2021, 08:07:30 AM
In general I find the earlier, pioneering Mahler performances more interesting than today's note-perfect, audio-perfect ones. The early recordings have a sense of exploration and intensity to them, and the occasional imperfections and the sense of strain add to the excitement. Today's orchestras are so familiar with Mahler that they can just go through the motions and produce a decent performance.

You can make a great Mahler cycle from recordings made not later than 1970 or so. Here's a thread we did on the subject:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19198.0.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on July 30, 2021, 09:10:20 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 30, 2021, 08:07:30 AM
In general I find the earlier, pioneering Mahler performances more interesting than today's note-perfect, audio-perfect ones. The early recordings have a sense of exploration and intensity to them, and the occasional imperfections and the sense of strain add to the excitement. Today's orchestras are so familiar with Mahler that they can just go through the motions and produce a decent performance.

You can make a great Mahler cycle from recordings made not later than 1970 or so. Here's a thread we did on the subject:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19198.0.html

Thanks for that link, ATA. I've read interesting things in it - and contributed my own list  :laugh:.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 30, 2021, 10:44:54 AM
It is weird to see my list from a decade ago.  Many are still my favorites, but some are headscratchers.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 30, 2021, 11:32:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 30, 2021, 10:44:54 AM
headscratchers

What causes you to scratch your head?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 30, 2021, 11:01:19 PM
Quote from: André on July 30, 2021, 05:25:06 AM
Indeed, RS ! Second rate orchestras can be hugely involved in a Mahler performance whereas some first rate orchestras sound just plain bored and boring. As an example, the two most spellbinding Mahler fourths I've heard are from 1950s german radio broadcasts - second rate orchestras and mono sound be damned. They are by Karl Rankl and Willem van Otterloo, conductors no one would label as mahlerians of the front rank.

The trick with Mahler is to observe all the tiny orchestral details, bring forth transparent textures and set the whole thing in a flowing, naturally paced narrative. Grand Statements and a cult of the Big Sound are Mahler's worst enemies.

I think you are spot on.  In fact Hurwitz kind of agrees with you too although he contradicts himself with his "2nd rate orchestras" comment.  Early in his talk he makes the - fair - point that playing/recording Mahler has become very much a norm rather than being an exceptional event.  The upside is of course orchestras/players have a degree of familiarity with this often very hard music that means the technical level of performance is enhanced.  However, they ARE exceptional/extraordinary works in the literal sense of the words.  If orchestras (or conductors) approach them with any sense of "Oh, God its Mahler 5 AGAIN...sigh" the battle is already lost.  Hurwitz recomends the Abravanal cycle for exactly the point you make about flowing natural pace - he likes the "simplicity" of Abravanal's approach and an avoidance of the kind of epic/superhero filmscore sound that is very exciting but not really where the essence of Mahler resides.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on July 31, 2021, 03:16:11 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 30, 2021, 08:07:30 AM
In general I find the earlier, pioneering Mahler performances more interesting than today's note-perfect, audio-perfect ones. The early recordings have a sense of exploration and intensity to them, and the occasional imperfections and the sense of strain add to the excitement. Today's orchestras are so familiar with Mahler that they can just go through the motions and produce a decent performance.

You can make a great Mahler cycle from recordings made not later than 1970 or so. Here's a thread we did on the subject:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19198.0.html

I had a glance at the link but will have to go back and examine it more closely.

I bought my first Mahler LP in 1970 and the cycle I put together over the next couple of years was from Haitink, Bernstein, Kubelik, Barbirolli, Horenstein and Klemperer. These are still pretty much my favourites. The lieder etc were from Szell, Boulez, Morris and Barbirolli.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on August 16, 2021, 03:51:34 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 30, 2021, 08:07:30 AM
In general I find the earlier, pioneering Mahler performances more interesting than today's note-perfect, audio-perfect ones. The early recordings have a sense of exploration and intensity to them, and the occasional imperfections and the sense of strain add to the excitement. Today's orchestras are so familiar with Mahler that they can just go through the motions and produce a decent performance.

You can make a great Mahler cycle from recordings made not later than 1970 or so. Here's a thread we did on the subject:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19198.0.html

From this thread I see that F. Charles Adler is one that came up a few times in symphony 3 and some other chap on TalkClassical that tends to have similar tastes as me rated fairly highly as well. I thought I'd heard all the oldies by this point but this was a really nice surprise, a great performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on August 16, 2021, 04:22:01 PM
I have to say I've really become rather taken with Chailly's Mahler, which was criticized by Andre as being 'faceless', but yet, he praises Haitink who follows a similar interpretation as Chailly in simply letting the music speak for itself. The wonderful thing about Mahler is there isn't a 'right' way to interpret his music. There's only our preferences and, for me, there's room in my collection for Chailly just like there's room for Haitink, Tennstedt or Bernstein (both cycles are glorious and I'll never choose between them). Anyway, the standouts, IMHO, of the Chailly set are the 3rd (absolutely first-rate!), 5th and the 9th. I could careless about the 10th since it wasn't finished by Mahler himself and only the Adagio stands, which is a pretty nice piece on its own without the Cooke or whoever manipulations.

Mahler conductors I don't like or remain ambivalent about in general: Inbal, Abravanel, Boulez (although his earlier performances on Columbia were good), Gergiev, Vänskä, Gielen, Tilson Thomas, Rattle, Dudamel and Solti (one of the most overrated conductors of all-time for me).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2021, 09:35:42 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 30, 2021, 11:32:01 AM
What causes you to scratch your head?

Oh I missed this!  Sorry

Some of the recordings on the list I barely remember owning and it is a big blank in my memory instead of some amazing recording for all time to treasure for the rest of my life.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on August 22, 2021, 06:56:14 AM
I revisited MTT/LSO 7th, it is as I remember one of the best performances of this I've ever heard. I listened to the SFS cycle once and wasn't too impressed, but just based off that LSO 7th and being a rather difficult symphony I have to give MTT credit.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Symphonic Addict on September 15, 2021, 08:51:33 PM
How realistic he looks like:

(https://i.imgur.com/VB28VTY.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 15, 2021, 10:43:36 PM
Would a red tie not be a bit gaudy? (I seriously don't know)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on September 16, 2021, 05:55:11 AM
This is my colorization/restoration of him. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on September 16, 2021, 06:49:50 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 15, 2021, 10:43:36 PM
Would a red tie not be a bit gaudy? (I seriously don't know)

Yeah, I don't think Mahler would have worn a red bowtie.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 16, 2021, 07:36:05 AM
The charcoal grey seems more likely for early 1900s than the brown suit but I am by no means a style expert ;)
But it's amazing what digital colorization can do today, looks all very natural.
(When I was a child in the 1970s and early 1980s we only had b/w TV. When on occasion I watched at relatives or friends color TV the colors seemed totally artificial and ugly; they probably were in most 1970s sets but it was of course mostly not being accustomed to the colors.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on September 21, 2021, 05:40:59 AM
What is your most recommended recording of No. 5? 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 21, 2021, 09:44:40 AM
Bernstein/Vienna/DG although the Adagietto is too slow (as often) and it was my first recording 30 years ago, so I am biased. For a dark horse alternative (with a fastish adagietto but slowish tempi elsewhere) Wyn Morris/some London orchestra/Collins?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 21, 2021, 10:39:01 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 21, 2021, 05:40:59 AM
What is your most recommended recording of No. 5?

Chailly/Conc'bouw. After living with it for about 20 years, I still find it near-perfect, and it sounds spectacular.

For an older recording, Kubelik/BRSO/DG.

I find that the 5th may be the Mahler symphony with the most ways to go wrong, and these 2 versions get everything right, in my view.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on September 21, 2021, 01:04:00 PM
The Kubelik BRSO is indeed unimpeachable. Other favourites are Neumann Gewandhaus Orch, Haitink's COA version and, surprisingly (for me) Dohnanyi Cleveland.

For a slow version I like the Farberman. Morris seems interesting. I'll check that one out  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on September 21, 2021, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 21, 2021, 09:44:40 AM
Bernstein/Vienna/DG although the Adagietto is too slow

Same.

But I don't think I've heard a fifth I didn't like.  I even like the Zinman that most seem to despise!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on September 21, 2021, 03:03:31 PM
Recordings not part of a cycle, I'd go for Barshai.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81UofGM-DKL.jpg)
The companion recording of the Tenth (Barshai's own completion) is just as good.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 21, 2021, 05:26:29 PM
Quote from: JBS on September 21, 2021, 03:03:31 PM
Recordings not part of a cycle, I'd go for Barshai.

That's a very good one, with a (very dedicated) youth orchestra no less, and great sonics. My only quibble is that the finale is too slow for my taste.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 21, 2021, 05:40:59 AM
What is your most recommended recording of No. 5? 

It took me 20+ years and 18 misfires before finally hearing a M5 that gave me what I wanted; a performance that milked the big chorale tune/climax in the second movement as slowly as possible. Even Bernstein let me down. Neumann finally did it to my satisfaction and that somehow opened the flood gates to these marvelous recordings (the first three my top recommendations:

Dohnányi/Cleveland
Neumann/Gewandhaus
Chailly/Concertgebouw

Boulez/Vienna
Stenz/Gürzenich
Kubelik/SOBR (DG)
Inbal/Frankfurt
Solti/Chicago
Haitink/Berlin (Not a general recommendation; it's too slow, too ponderous; an interpretation almost completely devoid of charm, lightness and light. It's like the music has been swallowed by the dark side. Even the Rondo-Finale brings no relief.)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 29, 2021, 12:34:02 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2021, 03:08:52 PM

Dohnányi/Cleveland
Neumann/Gewandhaus
Chailly/Concertgebouw

Boulez/Vienna
Stenz/Gürzenich
Kubelik/SOBR (DG)
Inbal/Frankfurt
Solti/Chicago
Haitink/Berlin (Not a general recommendation; it's too slow, too ponderous; an interpretation almost completely devoid of charm, lightness and light. It's like the music has been swallowed by the dark side. Even the Rondo-Finale brings no relief.)

Sarge

My choice, as almost always in Mahler, is the same as Sarge's, only slightly re-shuffled.

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no5-part-1.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no5-part-1.html)
https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no5-part-2.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no5-part-2.html)


1. Vaclav Neumann, Leipzig Gewandhaus, Berlin Classics / Brilliant

2. Riccardo Chailly, RCO, Decca

3. Rudolf Barshai, Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, Brilliant

4. Pierre Boulez, WPh, DG

... Markus Stenz, Gürzenich, Oehms

... Dohnányi / Cleveland (got to know this after the survey above)

... Kubelik BRSO

Almost Zweden, LPO (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/apr09/Mahler5_Neumann_93278.htm) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/apr09/Mahler5_Neumann_93278.htm)), Bernstein for willful occ. exuberance, Haitink/Berlin for perversion...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on September 29, 2021, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
It took me 20+ years and 18 misfires before finally hearing a M5 that gave me what I wanted; a performance that milked the big chorale tune/climax in the second movement as slowly as possible.

[...]

Kubelik/SOBR (DG)

Solti/Chicago
I apparently misunderstand your argument because these two, the only two of your list I have, don't take the chorale slowly, unless I am completely mistaken about the passage in question.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2021, 06:14:20 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 29, 2021, 12:46:52 AM
I apparently misunderstand your argument because these two, the only two of your list I have, don't take the chorale slowly, unless I am completely mistaken about the passage in question.

The bit I'm referring to begins at 11:03 in the Kubelik/DG with the climactic passage beginning at 11:51. In  Solti's performance it's 10.54 and 11:35. Solti does speed up as he approaches the climax but then slams on the brakes quite dramatically when he gets there...just what I want.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on September 29, 2021, 06:34:07 AM
I quite like this No.5.  Zubin Mehta/LA PHil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJhm1P5G3SM
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on September 29, 2021, 08:50:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2021, 03:08:52 PM
It took me 20+ years and 18 misfires before finally hearing a M5 that gave me what I wanted; a performance that milked the big chorale tune/climax in the second movement as slowly as possible. Even Bernstein let me down. Neumann finally did it to my satisfaction and that somehow opened the flood gates to these marvelous recordings (the first three my top recommendations:

Dohnányi/Cleveland
Neumann/Gewandhaus
Chailly/Concertgebouw

Boulez/Vienna
Stenz/Gürzenich
Kubelik/SOBR (DG)
Inbal/Frankfurt
Solti/Chicago
Haitink/Berlin (Not a general recommendation; it's too slow, too ponderous; an interpretation almost completely devoid of charm, lightness and light. It's like the music has been swallowed by the dark side. Even the Rondo-Finale brings no relief.)

Sarge

I demand to know why I don't have that recording!!!

Big favorites of mine are Barbirolli, Haitink/Concertgebouw from his old Philips cycle, and Neumann/Czech Phil. I do have Neumann/Gewanghaus, which I should listen to the next time I try to listen to Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 08, 2021, 04:19:56 AM
I don't know whether or not anyone has posted a link to this before, but I remembered having watched a very nice documentary (along with a performance) with Michael Tilson Thomas and the San Francisco Symphony some time back.

Hope that you enjoy it!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DfYcT5icY

PD
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on October 08, 2021, 07:22:39 AM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 08, 2021, 04:19:56 AM
I don't know whether or not anyone has posted a link to this before, but I remembered having watched a very nice documentary (along with a performance) with Michael Tilson Thomas and the San Francisco Symphony some time back.

Hope that you enjoy it!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DfYcT5icY

PD

Living fairly close to the city for decades, I've had ample opportunities to attend SFS Mahler performances under both MTT and Herbert Blomstedt. The last concert was not long before Covid-19 began to change our lives, and by then l had reached a couple of conclusions:

1) MTT is better with mid- and later Mahler,
I'd say from Symphony no. 5 onward. ( He and the orchestra can deliver truly amazing work in the Adagio from Symphony no. 10 )

The last Mahler concert l saw before Covid-19 was Symphony no. 1, and l was thoroughly underwhelmed. The ensemble seemed uninterested and under-rehearsed, with poor balance, which raised suspicions that...

2) The orchestra has been playing too much Mahler.

We've all heard the old saw, " Familiarity breeds contempt. " I've been performing since the 1960's, and l know this happens with music and musicians if there's too  much exposure and not enough relief.

SFS might benefit greatly from a couple of Mahler-less seasons, and more time with other music. For instance, I heard them deliver an adequate Bruckner 4, and kept thinking that they might not be that far from a truly wonderful Fourth.

But then, that Adagio was truly special...

::),

LKB
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on October 08, 2021, 07:36:50 AM
I currently don't really have a single, favourite 5th. But it's probably time to relisten to some of them. Tennstedt/HMV has been one of the most listened to, but it's also a bit slow at times.

Now, a complete Mengelberg, not just the Adagietto - that would have been extremely interesting and probably idiosyncratic ...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 08, 2021, 07:41:53 AM
Quote from: LKB on October 08, 2021, 07:22:39 AM
Living fairly close to the city for decades, I've had ample opportunities to attend SFS Mahler performances under both MTT and Herbert Blomstedt. The last concert was not long before Covid-19 began to change our lives, and by then l had reached a couple of conclusions:

1) MTT is better with mid- and later Mahler,
I'd say from Symphony no. 5 onward. ( He and the orchestra can deliver truly amazing work in the Adagio from Symphony no. 10 )

The last Mahler concert l saw before Covid-19 was Symphony no. 1, and l was thoroughly underwhelmed. The ensemble seemed uninterested and under-rehearsed, with poor balance, which raised suspicions that...

2) The orchestra has been playing too much Mahler.

We've all heard the old saw, " Familiarity breeds contempt. " I've been performing since the 1960's, and l know this happens with music and musicians if there's too  much exposure and not enough relief.

SFS might benefit greatly from a couple of Mahler-less seasons, and more time with other music. For instance, I heard them deliver an adequate Bruckner 4, and kept thinking that they might not be that far from a truly wonderful Fourth.

But then, that Adagio was truly special...

::),

LKB
Interesting to read your comments.  Do you like all of his No. 5 and onward recordings of Mahler LKB?

PD
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 08, 2021, 07:45:14 AM
Can't get enough of the 8th in recent weeks. It's been the famous, polarizing Solti recording that's been doing it for me. What a work; what a performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on October 08, 2021, 08:09:03 AM
I was referring exclusively to the live performances I've attended.

The only MTT/Mahler recording I've ever owned is his Third with the LSO, from the 80's on CBS, back when he was their chief conductor. It was fairly well reviewed in Grammophone, and features Dame Janet Baker ( a favorite of mine ) in the fourth movement.

I would readily admit to not giving MTT a fair shake where his Mahler recordings are concerned, but this is not due to anything personal. The fact is, nobody currently conducting gets a fair shake. I've had all of Mahler's works memorized for many years, and when l do decide it's time for a fix l invariably go to a trusted favourite from decades past.

Is this foolishness on my part? Probably.

Will my knowledge of the probability alter my behavior? Probably not, since we like what we like.

:D,

LKB

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on October 08, 2021, 09:23:34 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 08, 2021, 07:45:14 AM
Can't get enough of the 8th in recent weeks. It's been the famous, polarizing Solti recording that's been doing it for me. What a work; what a performance.

Yes! For years I didn't really like the Solti but one day I was listening and it suddenly hit me how incredible it was. It's soars to the top of M8's rightfully (my personal list of course). Aces!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 09, 2021, 04:43:59 AM
Quote from: LKB on October 08, 2021, 08:09:03 AM
I was referring exclusively to the live performances I've attended.

The only MTT/Mahler recording I've ever owned is his Third with the LSO, from the 80's on CBS, back when he was their chief conductor. It was fairly well reviewed in Grammophone, and features Dame Janet Baker ( a favorite of mine ) in the fourth movement.

I would readily admit to not giving MTT a fair shake where his Mahler recordings are concerned, but this is not due to anything personal. The fact is, nobody currently conducting gets a fair shake. I've had all of Mahler's works memorized for many years, and when l do decide it's time for a fix l invariably go to a trusted favourite from decades past.

Is this foolishness on my part? Probably.

Will my knowledge of the probability alter my behavior? Probably not, since we like what we like.

:D,

LKB
That's o.k. and yes, I understood that you were referring to the performances that you had seen, but since you were a big Mahler fan, I figured that you either owned--or had at least heard--his recordings of them.  :)

And, yes, I can be stubborn too about which performances I like and connect with.  ;D

PD
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on October 10, 2021, 05:13:44 AM
Quote from: hvbias on August 22, 2021, 06:56:14 AM
I revisited MTT/LSO 7th, it is as I remember one of the best performances of this I've ever heard. I listened to the SFS cycle once and wasn't too impressed, but just based off that LSO 7th and being a rather difficult symphony I have to give MTT credit.

With the recent discussion of the MTT/SFS purely by coincidence I ended up listening to the full cycle last week finishing with the 9th last night. I haven't changed my mind on it except the 4th was significantly better than I remembered and I'd now include as one of my top choices. Das Klagende Lied was also exceptional but I believe this recording predated the recording of the cycle?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 10, 2021, 06:06:03 AM
Quote from: hvbias on October 10, 2021, 05:13:44 AM
With the recent discussion of the MTT/SFS purely by coincidence I ended up listening to the full cycle last week finishing with the 9th last night. I haven't changed my mind on it except the 4th was significantly better than I remembered and I'd now include as one of my top choices. Das Klagende Lied was also exceptional but I believe this recording predated the recording of the cycle?

Yes, Das Klegende Lied is this recording from RCA Victor, re-released on the symphony's label:
https://www.discogs.com/release/8967511-Mahler-Michael-Tilson-Thomas-San-Francisco-Symphony-Chorus-Das-Klagende-Lied

I also like the No. 6 from this cycle but have personal attachment to it as the recording was from Sept 13, 2001, and I was at the concert/recording.  It was a very sad affair and everyone's mind was elsewhere on the events of a few days prior.  It was hard to sit through the concert without wondering if there was significant news but briefly, the music powerfully helped take our minds off the tragedy of those days.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 07, 2021, 08:20:57 AM
Earlier this year I listened to a commercial recording of the 4th symphony played by the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra under the Austrian conductor Hans Swarowsky. It has joined my short list of best 4ths.

From a Musicweb article I learned that:
Quote
as a musician his teachers included Busoni and Rosenthal in piano, Schoenberg and Webern in theory, Weingartner and Franz Schalk in conducting in addition to lessons with Richard Strauss and Clemens Krauss. He would later succeed Krauss as Professor of Conducting at the Conservatory and act as uncredited collaborator on the libretto for Strauss's Capriccio with him.

Under his professorship in Vienna his students included Abbado, Jansons, Sinopoli and Mehta (Zubin Mehta is hohorary President of the Hans Swarowsky Akademie).

QuoteMahler 3 with Mahler's notes

In April 1920, Swarowsky hears Mahler's third symphony for the first time (conducted by Furtwängler) and due to this impression decides to become a conductor – this symphony should take a special place throughout his entire life; for his 21st birthday, Julia Laszky acquires an Edition of Mahler's 3rd symphony from Universal Edition as a birthday present; Swarowsky will conduct from this score throughout the rest of his life. This score (first edition) contains corrections Mahler made after performances conducted by himself
[from hansswarowsky.com]
.

Link to a live performance of the 3rd symphony with Swarowsky conducting the Berlin Radio Symphony (Fricsay's old orchestra) in 1963:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hce83sGtKZ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hce83sGtKZ4)

The sound is reasonably good broadcast quality, precise and wide-ranging, but tape hiss and a number of electronic noises creep in here and there. I don't think this is cause for avoiding this superb performance though. The way the development and coda of I are brought off is nothing short of magnificent: every single strand of the huge orchestra is brought in with precise placement in terms of balancing and dynamics. It's like watching a flower bloom under one's very eyes. Very fine and poetic playing in the 3rd, 'posthorn' movement, with a thrilling coda. The Nietzsche movement has the mic stuck in the mezzo's throat. We hear a giant-sized organ (very fine btw), but the bloom on the voice is so beautiful that I didn't object to the overexposure. There is also a discreet version of the controversial upward slide on the oboe and english horn (after O Mensh, gib acht). The final movement clocks in at 21 minutes, a fervent, hymnic paean to Love that gives the symphony an uplifting, surging, life-affirming conclusion. No cosmic wandering among distant galaxies for Prof. Swarowsky. It may well be the swiftest performance of that movement I know (same as with Rögner with the same orchestra). A very special experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 08, 2021, 11:26:03 AM
Just in case you need another Mahler cycle.  This week's FREE download from Classic Selections is the old Vox/Abravanel/Utah cycle here;

https://www.classicselectworld.com/collections/free-downloads/products/big-mahler-box-13-hour-digital-download

You simply put it in the basket and proceed with a purchase as normal but the price is £0.00.  Not the best ever and not the highest nit rates but well-worth hearing and Netania Devrath in the finale to No.4 is worth the price of admission(!) alone........
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 08, 2021, 11:31:00 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 08, 2021, 11:26:03 AM
Just in case you need another Mahler cycle.  This week's FREE download from Classic Selections is the old Vox/Abravanel/Utah cycle here;

https://www.classicselectworld.com/collections/free-downloads/products/big-mahler-box-13-hour-digital-download

You simply put it in the basket and proceed with a purchase as normal but the price is £0.00.  Not the best ever and not the highest nit rates but well-worth hearing and Netania Devrath in the finale to No.4 is worth the price of admission(!) alone........

Thanks for the alert, RS. What is the bitrate? I personally won't except anything lower than 256 kbps AAC.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 08, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 08, 2021, 11:31:00 AM
Thanks for the alert, RS. What is the bitrate? I personally won't except anything lower than 256 kbps AAC.

Its variable so I suppose averaging around 230.  But these performance were never hi-fi in the first place and they are worth hearing.  Abravanel in Mahler certainly has something to say - quite different from the post-Bernstein confessional style....... and anyway its Free!

PS:  I just dipped into the start of No.8 to see how the audio coped and actually its remarkably good!  I like the way Abravanel splits his two main choirs and the soloists - no big names make a pretty good fist of things too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 08, 2021, 11:38:18 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 08, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
Its variable so I suppose averaging around 230.  But these performance were never hi-fi in the first place and they are worth hearing.  Abravanel in Mahler certainly has something to say - quite different from the post-Bernstein confessional style....... and anyway its Free!

Thanks, but I'll pass. :) My dad owns this Abravanel set already. I was just going to see if I could save myself from having to rip to my computer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on December 10, 2021, 08:14:47 AM
I've been getting into Mahler again after a few years, via the wonderful 4th symphony, which somehow I underrate how amazing it is. I have tons of recordings of it and have no preference for a favorite - I like just to put one on and listen. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on December 10, 2021, 08:54:42 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on December 10, 2021, 08:14:47 AM
I've been getting into Mahler again after a few years, via the wonderful 4th symphony, which somehow I underrate how amazing it is. I have tons of recordings of it and have no preference for a favorite - I like just to put one on and listen. :)
Good to read! Probably (no, certainly) my favourite Mahler symphony.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 11, 2021, 02:21:51 PM
Thanks to Roasted Swan's notice I downloaded the Abravanel cycle and have been listening to it.

I'm very impressed with it, given that these are 60s/70s recordings (?) the quality is very good, and whilst the interpretation isn't at the very highest level that you get with the greatest conductors, they are good, plain interpretations that sometimes made to you think 'oh, I'd never noticed that passage before', or, 'that's an interesting way to play it'. I have listened to 5, 6 and 9 so far and there's nothing in those accounts that would make me not recommend listening to them.

Pity he didn't do a Das Lied.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2021, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 11, 2021, 02:21:51 PM
Thanks to Roasted Swan's notice I downloaded the Abravanel cycle and have been listening to it.

I'm very impressed with it, given that these are 60s/70s recordings (?) the quality is very good, and whilst the interpretation isn't at the very highest level that you get with the greatest conductors, they are good, plain interpretations that sometimes made to you think 'oh, I'd never noticed that passage before', or, 'that's an interesting way to play it'. I have listened to 5, 6 and 9 so far and there's nothing in those accounts that would make me not recommend listening to them.

Pity he didn't do a Das Lied.

What was the bitrate of the download?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 11, 2021, 10:03:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2021, 08:52:02 PM
What was the bitrate of the download?

The only figure in the metadata is 44.1khz, which of course isn't a bitrate. Anyway, sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on December 11, 2021, 10:29:58 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on December 10, 2021, 08:14:47 AM
I've been getting into Mahler again after a few years, via the wonderful 4th symphony, which somehow I underrate how amazing it is. I have tons of recordings of it and have no preference for a favorite - I like just to put one on and listen. :)

That's the ticket.

The only recording that doesn't quite satisfy me is Bernstein's -- only the final movement with the boy soprano (who sings perfectly well). A worthy experiment, but I prefer the timbre that a female soprano brings to the part.

That symphony also has one of my favorite Mahler slow movements. Just listened to the Boulez/Cleveland recording, which will do just fine. Like you, I have no preference for a favorite. So many good ones to choose from.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 12, 2021, 05:38:27 AM
The 4th has my favorite Mahler adagio of them all. It's amazing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2021, 05:45:19 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 11, 2021, 10:03:44 PM
The only figure in the metadata is 44.1khz, which of course isn't a bitrate. Anyway, sounds good to me.

Ah, okay. Yeah, that doesn't really tell anything, but thanks for the feedback.

P.S. I'm downloading this Abravanel set now, so I'll let you, and anyone else who is wondering, what bitrate is used.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2021, 05:46:37 AM
Quote from: Brewski on December 11, 2021, 10:29:58 PM
That's the ticket.

The only recording that doesn't quite satisfy me is Bernstein's -- only the final movement with the boy soprano (who sings perfectly well). A worthy experiment, but I prefer the timbre that a female soprano brings to the part.

That symphony also has one of my favorite Mahler slow movements. Just listened to the Boulez/Cleveland recording, which will do just fine. Like you, I have no preference for a favorite. So many good ones to choose from.

--Bruce

It should be noted that Bruce is referring to Bernstein's DG recording and not the fantastic Columbia recording. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 12, 2021, 05:50:07 AM
The Bernstein/NY on Columbia/Sony is I think my favorite. With Reri Grist in the 4th movement. Amazing. I also love the Reiner/Chicago with Lisa della Casa and Szell/Cleveland with Judith Raskin.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2021, 05:54:03 AM
Some of my favorite 4th symphony performances: Bernstein (Columbia), Karajan and Iván Fischer.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 12, 2021, 05:55:55 AM
Never heard the Karajan, I wonder why it doesn't get talked about as much as his 5th, 6th and 9th (live) recordings. I really enjoy all of his Mahler recordings though I know they have their haters here (Mahlerian who doesn't post here anymore was a fervent anti-Karajanist) and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 12, 2021, 06:02:40 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 11, 2021, 02:21:51 PM
Thanks to Roasted Swan's notice I downloaded the Abravanel cycle and have been listening to it.

I'm very impressed with it, given that these are 60s/70s recordings (?) the quality is very good, and whilst the interpretation isn't at the very highest level that you get with the greatest conductors, they are good, plain interpretations that sometimes made to you think 'oh, I'd never noticed that passage before', or, 'that's an interesting way to play it'. I have listened to 5, 6 and 9 so far and there's nothing in those accounts that would make me not recommend listening to them.

Pity he didn't do a Das Lied.

I think that's a very fair summary of the Abravanel cycle which I recall was recorded from the mid 60's to the mid 70's.  Again from memory, it was one of the first single conductor/orchestra cycles and the first all American cycle (Bernstein's NYPO cycle had the LSO in No.8....)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on December 12, 2021, 06:06:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 12, 2021, 05:46:37 AM
It should be noted that Bruce is referring to Bernstein's DG recording and not the fantastic Columbia recording. :)

Yes, that's right. The previous one, with Reri Grist, is just fine. (PS, I haven't seen the Vienna Philharmonic DVD with Edith Mathis, but have enjoyed some of Bernstein's other Mahler DVDs.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on December 12, 2021, 06:10:01 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 12, 2021, 05:55:55 AM
Never heard the Karajan, I wonder why it doesn't get talked about as much as his 5th, 6th and 9th (live) recordings. I really enjoy all of his Mahler recordings though I know they have their haters here (Mahlerian who doesn't post here anymore was a fervent anti-Karajanist) and elsewhere.

Though I've heard some of Karajan's Mahler, haven't heard the 4th yet. (Too much Mahler running around!) Used to play his No. 6 to death (speaking of fine slow movements), and his outlook on the 9th is quite marvelous.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2021, 06:16:19 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 12, 2021, 05:55:55 AM
Never heard the Karajan, I wonder why it doesn't get talked about as much as his 5th, 6th and 9th (live) recordings. I really enjoy all of his Mahler recordings though I know they have their haters here (Mahlerian who doesn't post here anymore was a fervent anti-Karajanist) and elsewhere.

I've always adored Karajan's conducting. Do I like him in everything? Absolutely not, but I really don't understand the hate. Anyway, it's okay there's plenty of people who hate Bernstein's Mahler recordings, too. Honestly, if I'm moved by the performance, another person's opinion doesn't matter to me nor does it hinder my enjoyment of the music.

You should check out his 4th. I'm sure it's online somewhere, but the only I could find it in a physical format was a Japanese reissue, because I couldn't find an original issue of it:

(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/18edea70-95ed-42d4-b13a-c73f0148ac9a_1.93465e4dc48c4729b6ed124143d62efe.jpeg?odnWidth=612&odnHeight=612&odnBg=ffffff)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2021, 06:20:19 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention another 4th symphony performance I love:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY0MTIwNS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MzY0NzE5MzR9)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on December 12, 2021, 07:20:37 AM
Quote from: Brewski on December 12, 2021, 06:06:55 AM
Yes, that's right. The previous one, with Reri Grist, is just fine. (PS, I haven't seen the Vienna Philharmonic DVD with Edith Mathis, but have enjoyed some of Bernstein's other Mahler DVDs.)

--Bruce

I've owned all of the DG DVDs for years, and can recommend the double-disc set which offers the Fourth through Sixth symphonies.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on December 12, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
Quote from: LKB on December 12, 2021, 07:20:37 AM
I've owned all of the DG DVDs for years, and can recommend the double-disc set which offers the Fourth through Sixth symphonies.  ;)

Thanks! I've seen No. 2, but don't recall seeing any of the others. (Again, too much Mahler around, which is a nice problem to have.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on December 12, 2021, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 12, 2021, 06:16:19 AM
I've always adored Karajan's conducting. Do I like him in everything? Absolutely not, but I really don't understand the hate. Anyway, it's okay there's plenty of people who hate Bernstein's Mahler recordings, too. Honestly, if I'm moved by the performance, another person's opinion doesn't matter to me nor does it hinder my enjoyment of the music.

You should check out his 4th. I'm sure it's online somewhere, but the only I could find it in a physical format was a Japanese reissue, because I couldn't find an original issue of it:

(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/18edea70-95ed-42d4-b13a-c73f0148ac9a_1.93465e4dc48c4729b6ed124143d62efe.jpeg?odnWidth=612&odnHeight=612&odnBg=ffffff)
???
There's several used copies on Amazon MP, although only a few can be called reasonably priced.
This should be the link.

[Asin]B00000E3HM[/asin]

I just ordered it. I'm one of those who like Karajan's Mahler.

I might mention that I don't mind the boy soprano in Bernstein's DG recording, although it's not my favorite 4th
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 12, 2021, 07:43:55 PM
Quote from: JBS on December 12, 2021, 05:57:27 PM
???
There's several used copies on Amazon MP, although only a few can be called reasonably priced.
This should be the link.

[Asin]B00000E3HM[/asin]

I just ordered it. I'm one of those who like Karajan's Mahler.

I might mention that I don't mind the boy soprano in Bernstein's DG recording, although it's not my favorite 4th

Thanks for the link, Jeffrey. That's cool you ordered it. I hope you enjoy it!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on December 12, 2021, 09:06:04 PM
Quote from: Brewski on December 12, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
Thanks! I've seen No. 2, but don't recall seeing any of the others. (Again, too much Mahler around, which is a nice problem to have.)

--Bruce

My favorite volume is the first, which offers Symphonies 1-3. When the evangelical mood takes me, I'll occasionally loan it out to people who have heard of Mahler and enjoy orchestral music, but aren't prepared or able to invest in an unknown. They're excellent performances in good sound, particularly 1 and 3 ( which, btw, features an honest-to-goodness posthorn for the third movement ).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on December 12, 2021, 09:33:09 PM
Count me in as a member of the Karajan's Mahler Club as well.

The ( mostly ) live Ninth is practically mandatory for any serious Mahler collector, and I'd say the Sixth and Das Lied von der Erde have much to offer as well.

4 and 5 aren't quite as impressive imho, but they both have their moments, 4 in particular.

Karajan's Mahler was a work in progress. If memory serves, he referred during an interview to plans for eventually recording both the Third and the Eighth with the BPO. How unfortunate it is that the infamous personnel drama around Sabine Meyer should poison his relationship with the orchestra, and nullify those plans.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on December 13, 2021, 06:46:43 AM
On the topic of Karajan and Mahler I find his live recording of Symphony 4 with Edith Mathis even better than the one he made for DG, this was recorded shortly after the DG. The DG studio recording was first released as a Galleria CD, these are usually very cheap online.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 13, 2021, 06:54:05 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 13, 2021, 06:46:43 AM
On the topic of Karajan and Mahler I find his live recording of Symphony 4 with Edith Mathis even better than the one he made for DG, this was recorded shortly after the DG. The DG studio recording was first released as a Galleria CD, these are usually very cheap online.

Is this live recording you're talking about a commercial release? Link? Thanks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on December 13, 2021, 07:22:06 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 13, 2021, 06:54:05 AM
Is this live recording you're talking about a commercial release? Link? Thanks.

http://78experience.com/welcome.php?mod=disque&disque_id=1614

I have it on a Japanese bootleg label. I haven't heard the above transfer, everything I've heard from St. Laurent is exceptional; all of these roughly prewar era or before. He goes for the purist approach and doesn't use any processing like noise reduction.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 13, 2021, 07:36:36 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 13, 2021, 07:22:06 AM
http://78experience.com/welcome.php?mod=disque&disque_id=1614

I have it on a Japanese bootleg label. I haven't heard the above transfer, everything I've heard from St. Laurent is exceptional; all of these roughly prewar era or before. He goes for the purist approach and doesn't use any processing like noise reduction.

Ah okay. So it's not a commercial release. Thanks anyway.

Oh and I still love Karajan's studio 4th. ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on December 14, 2021, 08:33:15 AM
But why judge recordings of the 4th on the merits of the soprano, as though she's the main event?  She's a 9-minute contribution at the end of a 55-minute symphony, and the success of the recording is surely decided long before you get to that point.  Granted, it's possible to have a really awful sung contribution that spoils an otherwise fine performance, but in that (hopefully rare) case we can always push the stop button.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on December 14, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
You have a point there, but others may feel that the soprano movement is a make or break element (I do). The sung finale does not take anything off the first three movements, but it is crucial in making the symphony work as a whole.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2021, 11:08:07 AM
I agree. The soprano can, if not ruin, seriously mar a performance. I am not so much into the 3rd but I suspect that it's similar with the alto solo and while I do not recall spontaneously a horrible "Urlicht" this would also totally spoil Mahler's second for me. (FWIW I also think that many recordings of Beethoven's 9th are marred by singers not up to the very demanding solos).
To put it bluntly, these 8-9 min cannot *make* a Mahler 4th but can get close to *breaking* it. The boy in Bernstein's DG is such a liability (but maybe interesting in other way), I am not sure, if I remember correctly, but I think Walter's CBS recording is spoiled for me by the soprano and there are probably more, if I re-listened to the recordings I have.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on December 14, 2021, 11:12:09 AM
Agree, and I find myself increasingly idiosyncratic as regards singers, finding that there are so many potential faulty aspects, so it's an essential part.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on December 14, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
Quote from: LKB on December 12, 2021, 09:33:09 PM
Karajan's Mahler was a work in progress. If memory serves, he referred during an interview to plans for eventually recording both the Third and the Eighth with the BPO. How unfortunate it is that the infamous personnel drama around Sabine Meyer should poison his relationship with the orchestra, and nullify those plans.

Karajan and the 8th could have been very interesting, I think he would have had the sensitivity for it, but I could see the sonics being dreadful. This came up as the most mentioned least favorite Mahler symphony on a TalkClassical thread several weeks ago by a pretty wide margin, my guess was because people only heard the rather poor famous performance from Solti. If I could see any symphony live more often than any other 8th would be my choice.


Quote from: Mirror Image on December 13, 2021, 07:36:36 AM
Ah okay. So it's not a commercial release. Thanks anyway.

Oh and I still love Karajan's studio 4th. ;)

If this is for sound quality reasons it sounds like it could have been a commercial album. There is certainly nothing wrong with the DG studio, the relative interpretive differences between the two isn't that great, the live one just has that bit "extra" that great live performances sometimes do and I love the way Karajan shapes the adagio in it.

Going to listen to Ivan Fischer that you mentioned on the previous page which I haven't heard in a really long time and enjoy quite a bit, followed by Barbirolli's BBC.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on December 14, 2021, 04:54:00 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2021, 11:08:07 AM
I agree. The soprano can, if not ruin, seriously mar a performance. I am not so much into the 3rd but I suspect that it's similar with the alto solo and while I do not recall spontaneously a horrible "Urlicht" this would also totally spoil Mahler's second for me. (FWIW I also think that many recordings of Beethoven's 9th are marred by singers not up to the very demanding solos).
To put it bluntly, these 8-9 min cannot *make* a Mahler 4th but can get close to *breaking* it. The boy in Bernstein's DG is such a liability (but maybe interesting in other way), I am not sure, if I remember correctly, but I think Walter's CBS recording is spoiled for me by the soprano and there are probably more, if I re-listened to the recordings I have.

Renee Fleming on Abbado's Berlin recording seems to a disfavorite with many.

In reference to Beethoven, Bruggen's second cycle is almost perfect but has two  male soloists in the 9th who are bad enough to make the rest of the set seem not worth listening to.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on December 15, 2021, 05:47:41 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 14, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
Karajan and the 8th could have been very interesting, I think he would have had the sensitivity for it, but I could see the sonics being dreadful. This came up as the most mentioned least favorite Mahler symphony on a TalkClassical thread several weeks ago by a pretty wide margin, my guess was because people only heard the rather poor famous performance from Solti. If I could see any symphony live more often than any other 8th would be my choice.


If this is for sound quality reasons it sounds like it could have been a commercial album. There is certainly nothing wrong with the DG studio, the relative interpretive differences between the two isn't that great, the live one just has that bit "extra" that great live performances sometimes do and I love the way Karajan shapes the adagio in it.

Going to listen to Ivan Fischer that you mentioned on the previous page which I haven't heard in a really long time and enjoy quite a bit, followed by Barbirolli's BBC.

Is there a performance of Karajan doing Mahler 2?  That would be interesting to hear.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on December 15, 2021, 07:45:34 AM
To my knowledge, there is no Mahler with Karajan beyond what he recorded in the studio, i.e. eventually surfacing live recordings would not have different repertoire: Das Lied v. d. Erde, Rücker + Kindertoten-Lieder, symphonies 4,5,6,9.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on December 15, 2021, 05:20:47 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 15, 2021, 07:45:34 AM
To my knowledge, there is no Mahler with Karajan beyond what he recorded in the studio, i.e. eventually surfacing live recordings would not have different repertoire: Das Lied v. d. Erde, Rücker + Kindertoten-Lieder, symphonies 4,5,6,9.

Wow, really?  Even not in concert?  That's a bit odd.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on December 16, 2021, 02:45:28 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 14, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
Karajan and the 8th could have been very interesting, I think he would have had the sensitivity for it, but I could see the sonics being dreadful. This came up as the most mentioned least favorite Mahler symphony on a TalkClassical thread several weeks ago by a pretty wide margin, my guess was because people only heard the rather poor famous performance from Solti. If I could see any symphony live more often than any other 8th would be my choice.


If this is for sound quality reasons it sounds like it could have been a commercial album. There is certainly nothing wrong with the DG studio, the relative interpretive differences between the two isn't that great, the live one just has that bit "extra" that great live performances sometimes do and I love the way Karajan shapes the adagio in it.

Going to listen to Ivan Fischer that you mentioned on the previous page which I haven't heard in a really long time and enjoy quite a bit, followed by Barbirolli's BBC.

The 8th was problematic for me from the very first hearing - Bernstein/LSO on LP (CBS). Several years later I bought a recording by Wyn Morris at one of his concerts (Mahler 5) and it did nothing to endear me to the work, I am not sure I ever listened to it all the way through.

In the CD era I have acquired numerous recordings, mainly as part of complete cycles. None of them have really grabbed me with Chailly/Concertgebouw being the best of the bunch.

I recall the Solti being very favourably reviewed but I don't like it. I find Part I frenzied and noisy and Part II just goes on too long but I find that with just about everybody.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on December 16, 2021, 03:17:58 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 15, 2021, 05:20:47 PM
Wow, really?  Even not in concert?  That's a bit odd.
I have not read a biography about HvK, so other might correct me.
But it seems that he came very late to Mahler overall, didn't conduct any Mahler before 1970 (except maybe Lieder?) and with the preparation needed for this perfectionist he didn't get beyond the ones he actually recorded. In the early 1980s he was also apparently so bewitched by digital technology that he could be easily persuaded to (re-)record Beethoven, Brahms, some Bruckner, Strauss etc. and a few years later his health declined rather rapidly. And when he did the Mahler in the mid-1970s he of course also re-recorded lots of standard stuff, apparently this was more important to him. Or he didn't like the other Mahler pieces so much.
I am a bit too young to remember well but looking at videos the decline is pretty startling (both general frailty and I think back problems), look at the NYD Vienna 1987 vs. the late 1988 concerto with Kissin.

In general, Mahler was far more niche before the 1980s. I remember that Mahler was considered an acquired taste or for more advanced listeners when I got into classical music in the mid-late 1980s. Lots of conductors of Karajan's age conducted little or no Mahler. Some (Celibidache, Wand) are even on record with rather negative (or at least distancing) comments about the composer. Others, like Giulini, conducted some Mahler, but were apparently even more picky than Karajan.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on December 16, 2021, 04:08:17 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 16, 2021, 03:17:58 AM
I have not read a biography about HvK, so other might correct me.
But it seems that he came very late to Mahler overall, didn't conduct any Mahler before 1970 (except maybe Lieder?) and with the preparation needed for this perfectionist he didn't get beyond the ones he actually recorded. In the early 1980s he was also apparently so bewitched by digital technology that he could be easily persuaded to (re-)record Beethoven, Brahms, some Bruckner, Strauss etc. and a few years later his health declined rather rapidly. And when he did the Mahler in the mid-1970s he of course also re-recorded lots of standard stuff, apparently this was more important to him. Or he didn't like the other Mahler pieces so much.
I am a bit too young to remember well but looking at videos the decline is pretty startling (both general frailty and I think back problems), look at the NYD Vienna 1987 vs. the late 1988 concerto with Kissin.

In general, Mahler was far more niche before the 1980s. I remember that Mahler was considered an acquired taste or for more advanced listeners when I got into classical music in the mid-late 1980s. Lots of conductors of Karajan's age conducted little or no Mahler. Some (Celibidache, Wand) are even on record with rather negative (or at least distancing) comments about the composer. Others, like Giulini, conducted some Mahler, but were apparently even more picky than Karajan.

For the early part of Karajan's career he was primarily an operatic conductor and in any cas e Mahler's music was banned up to 1945. Post-war he was still largely operatic though he started to expand his orchestral repertoire. When he started to conduct the Philharmonia Orchestra in the 1950s he was restricted to some extent by the HMV/EMI Repertore Committee - for example, he wanted to record Shostakovich 8 it was rejected as 'too esoteric'.

In 1960, the Mahler Centenary year he conducted three performances of Das Lied von der Erde with the Vienna Philharmonic. I have no ideea how the performances went but when he conducted the same work with the Berlin Philharmonic in the same yearit was, apparently, a disaster and this may have put him off Mahelr for the time being.

During the 1970s the Berlin Philharmonic performed quite a bit of Mahler, mainly with Barbirolli, so Karajan didn't need to. It was only after Barbirolli's death in 1970 that he began to show an interest.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on December 18, 2021, 02:21:38 PM
Quote from: hvbias on December 14, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
This came up as the most mentioned least favorite Mahler symphony on a TalkClassical thread several weeks ago by a pretty wide margin, my guess was because people only heard the rather poor famous performance from Solti.

That's a lousy guess.

QuoteIf I could see any symphony live more often than any other 8th would be my choice.

The fact that it would be your choice doesn't mean it has to be anybody else's.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 19, 2021, 04:45:11 AM
Mahler's 8th is pretty high on the list for me of symphonies I want to see live.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on December 21, 2021, 05:32:56 PM
Quote from: Madiel on December 18, 2021, 02:21:38 PM
That's a lousy guess.

An educated guess based off discussions of Mahler's 8 there.

Quote
The fact that it would be your choice doesn't mean it has to be anybody else's.

What an obviously blatant observation, where did I say it would be anyone else's choice?

It's a majorly problematic symphony to record for conventional playback (stereo).

Quote from: vers la flamme on December 19, 2021, 04:45:11 AM
Mahler's 8th is pretty high on the list for me of symphonies I want to see live.

It's quite stunning when performed well. I would love to see either Ivan Fischer or Honeck do it at some point if they ever chose to.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2021, 05:34:35 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 19, 2021, 04:45:11 AM
Mahler's 8th is pretty high on the list for me of symphonies I want to see live.

I wouldn't mind seeing it for sure. Schoenberg's Gurre-Lieder, too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2021, 02:15:37 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 21, 2021, 05:32:56 PM
An educated guess based off discussions of Mahler's 8 there.

Well I've never heard Solti's 8th, and the 8th is still my least favourite Mahler symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on December 22, 2021, 07:31:02 AM
Interesting comments on the Eighth, which I love, but it took recordings other than Solti's to get there, e.g., Haitink and Chailly. Some conductors focus too much on the big moments in the piece, when the reality is that (like much of Mahler) there are many quieter, chamber music-like sequences, too. The contrast between them is what makes the symphony work: Fortissimos shrinking down to pianissimos, and gargantuan tuttis alongside intimate solos.

Also, the work really does need great soloists and an expert chorus, all of whom have signed on to "you don't always need to sing your guts out." Otherwise, the score can seem monolithic, and/or overblown, or even dull. It's a tricky balancing act to pull off.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on December 22, 2021, 07:35:57 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 21, 2021, 05:32:56 PM
It's a majorly problematic symphony to record for conventional playback (stereo).

It's quite stunning when performed well. I would love to see either Ivan Fischer or Honeck do it at some point if they ever chose to.

Yes to both of these points. Fischer or Honeck would be terrific choices. (I would love to see what Reference Recordings would do for Honeck, since that label is doing superb work for him and Pittsburgh these days.)

I've been very lucky to have heard the Eighth live four or five times, with Chailly, Levine, and others I can't recall at the moment. Like many large scores, it shows its true colors when you hear it in a large room (i.e., not at home).

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 23, 2021, 04:58:13 AM
Sadly if I recall correctly Iván Fischer has stated he's not a fan of the 8th and does not plan on recording it.  :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on December 23, 2021, 06:29:11 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 23, 2021, 04:58:13 AM
Sadly if I recall correctly Iván Fischer has stated he's not a fan of the 8th and does not plan on recording it.  :(

Ah, too bad. His lean approach and rhythmic vitality (e.g., in Bartók and Mozart) might have served him well in this piece.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on December 23, 2021, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: Brewski on December 22, 2021, 07:31:02 AM
Interesting comments on the Eighth, which I love, but it took recordings other than Solti's to get there, e.g., Haitink and Chailly. Some conductors focus too much on the big moments in the piece, when the reality is that (like much of Mahler) there are many quieter, chamber music-like sequences, too. The contrast between them is what makes the symphony work: Fortissimos shrinking down to pianissimos, and gargantuan tuttis alongside intimate solos.

Also, the work really does need great soloists and an expert chorus, all of whom have signed on to "you don't always need to sing your guts out." Otherwise, the score can seem monolithic, and/or overblown, or even dull. It's a tricky balancing act to pull off.

--Bruce

The Solti is brash, lacking in sensitivity and the mic'ing is too hot. I like Chailly quite a bit as well and it has been forever since I have heard Haitink, IIRC he never recorded this live with the Concertgebouw?

My favorite performance and perhaps unpopular opinion is Horenstein on BBC.

I have only seen Rattle with the CBSO and it was absolutely stunning. I almost didn't bother (Rattle... and wanting to get over jet lag faster) but I was having dinner with a former consultant I was training under and thought might as well make an evening of it. Perhaps the best last minute decision I've ever made  ;D

DG have the right idea with recording Dudamel's second performance in Atmos, I suspect this will get you much closer to hearing this symphony as it should be (not a comment on if Dudamel can execute it). I have not been too serious about multichannel playback for classical; the ratio of high quality performances to number of MCH recordings is far too low. I would like to upgrade to Atmos at some point for films.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2021, 07:28:32 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 23, 2021, 04:58:13 AM
Sadly if I recall correctly Iván Fischer has stated he's not a fan of the 8th and does not plan on recording it.  :(

Oh well, there are plenty of fantastic performances out there. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on December 23, 2021, 07:51:10 PM
Quote from: hvbias on December 23, 2021, 01:17:08 PM
The Solti is brash, lacking in sensitivity and the mic'ing is too hot. I like Chailly quite a bit as well and it has been forever since I have heard Haitink, IIRC he never recorded this live with the Concertgebouw?

My favorite performance and perhaps unpopular opinion is Horenstein on BBC.

I have only seen Rattle with the CBSO and it was absolutely stunning. I almost didn't bother (Rattle... and wanting to get over jet lag faster) but I was having dinner with a former consultant I was training under and thought might as well make an evening of it. Perhaps the best last minute decision I've ever made  ;D

DG have the right idea with recording Dudamel's second performance in Atmos, I suspect this will get you much closer to hearing this symphony as it should be (not a comment on if Dudamel can execute it). I have not been too serious about multichannel playback for classical; the ratio of high quality performances to number of MCH recordings is far too low. I would like to upgrade to Atmos at some point for films.

Youtube has the video of Rattle conducting the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain in the Eighth during the 2002 Proms.
https://youtu.be/LKof4e_7cYA
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on December 24, 2021, 11:15:10 AM
Quote from: hvbias on December 23, 2021, 01:17:08 PM
The Solti is brash, lacking in sensitivity and the mic'ing is too hot. I like Chailly quite a bit as well and it has been forever since I have heard Haitink, IIRC he never recorded this live with the Concertgebouw?

My favorite performance and perhaps unpopular opinion is Horenstein on BBC.

I have only seen Rattle with the CBSO and it was absolutely stunning. I almost didn't bother (Rattle... and wanting to get over jet lag faster) but I was having dinner with a former consultant I was training under and thought might as well make an evening of it. Perhaps the best last minute decision I've ever made  ;D

DG have the right idea with recording Dudamel's second performance in Atmos, I suspect this will get you much closer to hearing this symphony as it should be (not a comment on if Dudamel can execute it). I have not been too serious about multichannel playback for classical; the ratio of high quality performances to number of MCH recordings is far too low. I would like to upgrade to Atmos at some point for films.

Agree about the Solti. Too pushed; he doesn't let the score breathe. And AFAIK, Haitink only made the one studio recording, not any live -- a pity. (But I heard through the grapevine that he was another conductor who didn't really care for the score.)

And I actually have not yet heard Horenstein, which is something of a classic. (First UK performance, maybe?)

Your Rattle experience must have been overwhelming. When he is "on" -- and choral music often brings out the best in him -- he can be magnificent. With similar fervor, a few years ago Dudamel did the piece in Caracas with the combined Simón Bolívar and LA Phil orchestras. He definitely knows and likes the piece. Not sure if the concert hall acoustics there did anyone any favors, but oh well.

Quote from: JBS on December 23, 2021, 07:51:10 PM
Youtube has the video of Rattle conducting the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain in the Eighth during the 2002 Proms.
https://youtu.be/LKof4e_7cYA

Thank you so much! I will likely use this for holiday listening, either today or tomorrow.  8)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on January 04, 2022, 04:27:33 PM
Quote from: Brewski on December 24, 2021, 11:15:10 AM
Agree about the Solti. Too pushed; he doesn't let the score breathe. And AFAIK, Haitink only made the one studio recording, not any live -- a pity. (But I heard through the grapevine that he was another conductor who didn't really care for the score.)

And I actually have not yet heard Horenstein, which is something of a classic. (First UK performance, maybe?)

Your Rattle experience must have been overwhelming. When he is "on" -- and choral music often brings out the best in him -- he can be magnificent. With similar fervor, a few years ago Dudamel did the piece in Caracas with the combined Simón Bolívar and LA Phil orchestras. He definitely knows and likes the piece. Not sure if the concert hall acoustics there did anyone any favors, but oh well.

Thank you so much! I will likely use this for holiday listening, either today or tomorrow.  8)

--Bruce

I would say the Rattle was a top 5 concert experience. And to show just how little I follow his career I was surprised that he has actually recorded it twice! I'm not sure if Horenstein was the first UK recording, a while back I was A/B comparing it against a few different versions and Antoni Wit's overall conception of Part 1 was not too dissimilar, though I didn't make it past the first part.

The most recent one I heard was Thierry Fischer with Utah, I will have to revisit this one as it did sound promising though if anything the first part sounded a bit pushed. Nagano is another I need to hear.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on January 04, 2022, 06:36:35 PM
I've attended performances of M8 twice. Both were acceptable, if not brilliant, but a truly brilliant live M8 is, I suspect, among the rarest concert experiences one might encounter.

I have owned four recordings:  Solti, Bernstein on CBS/Sony, Bernstein DG DVD, and the Haitink studio recording from the 70's.

I prefer Solti, because his soloists are favorites of mine and acquit themselves well enough, and also for the CSO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2022, 08:15:45 PM
Quote from: LKB on January 04, 2022, 06:36:35 PM
I've attended performances of M8 twice. Both were acceptable, if not brilliant, but a truly brilliant live M8 is, I suspect, among the rarest concert experiences one might encounter.

I have owned four recordings:  Solti, Bernstein on CBS/Sony, Bernstein DG DVD, and the Haitink studio recording from the 70's.

I prefer Solti, because his soloists are favorites of mine and acquit themselves well enough, and also for the CSO.

It is a rather difficult symphony to get right I think, but I'm slowly coming around to it with each successive listen. I'll have to give a listen to the Solti since you rate it so highly.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on January 04, 2022, 09:24:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2022, 08:15:45 PM
It is a rather difficult symphony to get right I think, but I'm slowly coming around to it with each successive listen. I'll have to give a listen to the Solti since you rate it so highly.

The Solti certainly has more competition than it did when it was released nearly 50 years ago. Rattle and Tennstedt in particular are worthy interpreters.

But Solti has Shirley-Quirk, Popp, Kollo, Watts and Talvela among his soloists, all of whom were among the best in the business at that time, and it shows. As for the CSO and Wiener Singverein, they are more than adequate to the challenge.

Give the Solti a try and let us know what you think.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 05, 2022, 07:02:24 AM
There's a new recording of the 6th symphony under Adam Fischer:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTI1Mjc3NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MzQwMzU2ODh9)

On the Presto website audio extracts are available. At first I was somewhat surprised and intrigued by what seemed like little phrase pullings, HIP style. Then I read that Fischer explains in the booklet notes :

«  Here we have a great number of slight rubatos that are not easy to carry out in practice. If you are too afraid of losing control and you play these passages too mechanically, the music loses its character. On the other hand, it should not sound unstable, as if you were weak in the knees. These passages require precise chamber-music-making among the orchestra groups. In the immediate wake of massive tuttis, this becomes a delicate matter. If you succeed in getting it right if the oboes, the bassoon, and the violins manage to play those rubatos together and breathe together the result can be fantastic. (from Adam Fischer's remarks of the booklet texts)

  https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252774--mahler-symphony-no-6  (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252774--mahler-symphony-no-6)

So it appears Mahler wanted (wrote in ?) these tiny fluctuations. I couldn't make up my mind after hearing 30second bits of course, but then I figured if this goes on for the full 80 minutes, the symphony will definitely sound different. Good or bad ? Anyone heard that recording ?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2022, 07:12:19 AM
Quote from: LKB on January 04, 2022, 09:24:29 PM
The Solti certainly has more competition than it did when it was released nearly 50 years ago. Rattle and Tennstedt in particular are worthy interpreters.

But Solti has Shirley-Quirk, Popp, Kollo, Watts and Talvela among his soloists, all of whom were among the best in the business at that time, and it shows. As for the CSO and Wiener Singverein, they are more than adequate to the challenge.

Give the Solti a try and let us know what you think.  ;)

I'll certainly get around to it some day.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Maestro267 on January 05, 2022, 07:42:30 AM
My one gripe with Solti's Mahler 8...why do the soloists sound like they're standing in a single-file line in Part I? You can hardly hear the tenor!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 05, 2022, 09:56:02 AM
Wasn't one or more of the soloists mixed in? They never were in the same hall when singing this, I think I read somewhere!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on January 05, 2022, 06:01:59 PM
Quote from: LKB on January 04, 2022, 09:24:29 PM
The Solti certainly has more competition than it did when it was released nearly 50 years ago. Rattle and Tennstedt in particular are worthy interpreters.

But Solti has Shirley-Quirk, Popp, Kollo, Watts and Talvela among his soloists, all of whom were among the best in the business at that time, and it shows. As for the CSO and Wiener Singverein, they are more than adequate to the challenge.

Give the Solti a try and let us know what you think.  ;)

Shirley-Quirk unfortunately is one of many singers who end up chewing their words in that part of Pater Estaticus. (This is perhaps the most frequent flaw I've found in M8 recordings. I'm guessing Mahler didn't write the part to come smoothly off the tongue, so it's hard to enunciate without making an extra effort.)

Ewiger Wonnebrand,
Glühendes Liebeband,
Siedender Schmerz der Brust,
Schäumende Gotteslust.
Pfeile, durchdringet mich,
Lanzen, bezwinget mich,
Keulen, zerschmettert mich,
Blitze, durchwettert mich!
Daß ja das Nichtige
Alles verflüchtige,
Glänze der Dauerstern,
Ewiger Liebe Kern.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 05, 2022, 06:06:53 PM
Tongue twisting, tripping stuff indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 05, 2022, 11:16:15 PM
Quote from: André on January 05, 2022, 07:02:24 AM
There's a new recording of the 6th symphony under Adam Fischer:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTI1Mjc3NC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MzQwMzU2ODh9)

On the Presto website audio extracts are available. At first I was somewhat surprised and intrigued by what seemed like little phrase pullings, HIP style. Then I read that Fischer explains in the booklet notes :

« Here we have a great number of slight rubatos that are not easy to carry out in practice. If you are too afraid of losing control and you play these passages too mechanically, the music loses its character. On the other hand, it should not sound unstable, as if you were weak in the knees. These passages require precise chamber-music-making among the orchestra groups. In the immediate wake of massive tuttis, this becomes a delicate matter. If you succeed in getting it right if the oboes, the bassoon, and the violins manage to play those rubatos together and breathe together the result can be fantastic. (from Adam Fischer's remarks of the booklet texts)

  https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252774--mahler-symphony-no-6  (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252774--mahler-symphony-no-6)

So it appears Mahler wanted (wrote in ?) these tiny fluctuations. I couldn't make up my mind after hearing 30second bits of course, but then I figured if this goes on for the full 80 minutes, the symphony will definitely sound different. Good or bad ? Anyone heard that recording ?

Without wading through 263 pages of the score, I wouldn't assume this is an argument based on things Mahler explicitly wanted as opposed to an argument about performance practice. You yourself described it as "HIP style".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on January 06, 2022, 05:47:37 AM
Quote from: Madiel on January 05, 2022, 11:16:15 PM
Without wading through 263 pages of the score, I wouldn't assume this is an argument based on things Mahler explicitly wanted as opposed to an argument about performance practice. You yourself described it as "HIP style".

Agree. It has been many years since I looked at the score of the 6th, but I don't recall seeing explicit tempo fluctuations in this part (Fischer is referring to the Scherzo, and because he mentions the "altvaterisch" designation, I assume it's the twice-occurring Trio section that he means). That's not to say they're not written in there, just that I don't recall seeing them. Also, I know that some conductors (e.g. Bernstein) make heavy use of little hesitations and speedings-up in this trio, but others do not, and there are definite differences in tempo for the transition back to and return of the Scherzo proper between e.g. Bernstein and e.g. Barbirolli. My feeling is these are just differences in performance practice in the absence of explicit instructions from the composer... but then again, I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on January 06, 2022, 08:37:28 AM
Quote from: krummholz on January 06, 2022, 05:47:37 AM
Agree. It has been many years since I looked at the score of the 6th, but I don't recall seeing explicit tempo fluctuations in this part (Fischer is referring to the Scherzo, and because he mentions the "altvaterisch" designation, I assume it's the twice-occurring Trio section that he means). That's not to say they're not written in there, just that I don't recall seeing them. Also, I know that some conductors (e.g. Bernstein) make heavy use of little hesitations and speedings-up in this trio, but others do not, and there are definite differences in tempo for the transition back to and return of the Scherzo proper between e.g. Bernstein and e.g. Barbirolli. My feeling is these are just differences in performance practice in the absence of explicit instructions from the composer... but then again, I could be wrong.

My feeling, too. If it was in the score it would be common knowledge among conductors/players. I think Fischer feels these tiny adjustments help the results. What Fischer does for example is hold a note and slightly fine down the vibrato so that at the end it is played senza vibrato. That's what my ears detected and what I referred to when I mentioned it's a bit HIP-like.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on January 15, 2022, 08:20:15 AM
Last night on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, actor Bradley Cooper revealed he loves Mahler's 2nd ("Resurrection") Symphony. Colbert turned to bandleader Jon Batiste:

"Got any Mahler's Resurrection?"

JB: "We don't have enough instruments for that."

;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 15, 2022, 08:52:16 AM
They could have done a chamberish version of Urlicht, or even better the St. Antony fish sermon scherzo!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on January 15, 2022, 09:09:47 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 15, 2022, 08:52:16 AM
They could have done a chamberish version of Urlicht, or even better the St. Antony fish sermon scherzo!

I would have loved to see them pull one of those out of the hat! (Batiste has the knowledge and the chops, too.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on January 15, 2022, 09:52:51 PM
If that had occurred, I'd probably consider that program mandatory for life.

And now l suppose l should discover who this Bradley Cooper is...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on January 15, 2022, 11:47:52 PM
The name sounded vaguely familiar but I didn't know who he was either but now I looked it up and remember him from "Alias" in the early 2000s. That's the only production with him I have seen, quite a long time ago.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on January 16, 2022, 12:31:05 AM
I've wiki'd him, but the only work l recognized was his voicing of Rocket Raccoon.

Still, he plugged M2 and that gets him points in my book.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 16, 2022, 12:48:53 AM
*idly watches a bit of popular culture fly way overhead in the distance*
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on January 16, 2022, 08:19:25 AM
Apparently Cooper is working on a new movie about Leonard Bernstein, called Maestro, set to be released later this year.

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/periods-genres/film-tv/bradley-cooper-classical-conducting-maestro/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Iota on January 16, 2022, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: LKB on January 15, 2022, 09:52:51 PM
If that had occurred, I'd probably consider that program mandatory for life.

And now l suppose l should discover who this Bradley Cooper is...

He's very good indeed in A Star is Born, which he also directed and co-wrote.


Quote from: Brewski on January 16, 2022, 08:19:25 AM
Apparently Cooper is working on a new movie about Leonard Bernstein, called Maestro, set to be released later this year.

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/periods-genres/film-tv/bradley-cooper-classical-conducting-maestro/

--Bruce

Interesting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 14, 2022, 04:38:09 PM
I'm a fan of Symphony No. 10 and believe it should be in canon.  The most popular performance edition is Cooke and he was assisted by David and Colin Matthews.  But one thing I'm surprised to realize is how extremely young the Matthew brothers were.  According to their own biographies, they were 19 and 16 years old when they assisted Cooke but claim their formal training came in the decade later.  So, its a bit confusing how or why Cooke would enlist such young students in constructing a completed version of such a monumental composer's final work.  How did this happen?  Isn't that like asking a student to help decipher the Rosetta Stone?  It just doesn't make sense regardless of how talented they are as composers in their maturity. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 15, 2022, 01:52:15 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 14, 2022, 04:38:09 PM
I'm a fan of Symphony No. 10 and believe it should be in canon.  The most popular performance edition is Cooke and he was assisted by David and Colin Matthews.  But one thing I'm surprised to realize is how extremely young the Matthew brothers were.  According to their own biographies, they were 19 and 16 years old when they assisted Cooke but claim their formal training came in the decade later.  So, its a bit confusing how or why Cooke would enlist such young students in constructing a completed version of such a monumental composer's final work.  How did this happen?  Isn't that like asking a student to help decipher the Rosetta Stone?  It just doesn't make sense regardless of how talented they are as composers in their maturity.

They probably worked as interns (ie unpaid).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 15, 2022, 02:43:27 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 15, 2022, 01:52:15 AM
They probably worked as interns (ie unpaid).
Maybe. Or they were the ones most interested in that kind of work. Guy Gavriel Kay worked with Chr. Tolkien to edit what became the Silmarilion as a 20 yo student. Sometimes projects that eventually become quite famous started very modest and especially with modest financial means, basically depending on volunteers (or quasi-volunteers like (not even graduate) students).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 08:00:50 AM
I can't claim to be a big fan of the 10th myself. Mahler is in my "Top 5" of favorite composers, but for the life of me, I struggle to appreciate what Cooke has done with it and cannot help thinking that Mahler would've gone in a completely different direction. I do like the Adagio, but this is only because its' been completed by the composer himself. With completions, whatever the intentions may be, I have never come away fully satisfied by any of them. FWIW, Mahler's 9th (a symphony not heard in his lifetime), remains, for this listener, his last will and testament.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on April 15, 2022, 08:10:15 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 08:00:50 AM
I can't claim to be a big fan of the 10th myself. Mahler is in my "Top 5" of favorite composers, but for the life of me, I struggle to appreciate what Cooke has done with it and cannot help thinking that Mahler would've gone in a completely different direction. I do like the Adagio, but this is only because its' been completed by the composer himself. With completions, whatever the intentions may be, I have never come away fully satisfied by any of them. FWIW, Mahler's 9th (a symphony not heard in his lifetime), remains, for this listener, his last will and testament.

I'd say this sums up my views as well. Thanks, MI, for saving me the trouble.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on April 15, 2022, 08:34:04 AM
Barshai comes the closest to what I would think of as a "Mahlerian" sounding Tenth, but it will always remain an unfinished work as far as I'm concerned, and I don't view the symphony as a whole as authentic Mahler in any version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on April 15, 2022, 02:06:18 PM
I've yet to finish my Gielen box. It includes both an Adagio and a completed 10, as Gielen changed his own feeling towards the completion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 15, 2022, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 08:00:50 AM
I can't claim to be a big fan of the 10th myself. Mahler is in my "Top 5" of favorite composers, but for the life of me, I struggle to appreciate what Cooke has done with it and cannot help thinking that Mahler would've gone in a completely different direction. I do like the Adagio, but this is only because its' been completed by the composer himself. With completions, whatever the intentions may be, I have never come away fully satisfied by any of them. FWIW, Mahler's 9th (a symphony not heard in his lifetime), remains, for this listener, his last will and testament.

He DID complete the 10th symphony.  Only the first two movements were completed in full score but the symphony in its entirety was written in sketch first.  Then he made another pass of the full work flushing it out (the draft score).  He died while orchestrating it.  The complexity of the 10th is that in some cases, the sketch is more flushed out than the draft and vice versa and that's where interpretation comes in...which version is the "truer" one.  None of those versions are all that different showing just how finished the work was.  Mahler is also a composer who never stopped finicking with any of his works.  There was just a new "critical" version of his Symphony No. 4 as scholars further discovered comments he wrote through various performances of it.   
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 15, 2022, 04:13:15 PM
Quote from: Crudblud on April 15, 2022, 08:34:04 AM
Barshai comes the closest to what I would think of as a "Mahlerian" sounding Tenth, but it will always remain an unfinished work as far as I'm concerned, and I don't view the symphony as a whole as authentic Mahler in any version.

My favorites are Barshai and Remo Mazzetti Jr. (1997 version).  I think Barshai is best at approximating late Mahler and Mazzetti 3 at where he might have gone.  Since Mahler constantly revised his music, he never heard 10 so this is only his first ideas of the completed work that we have.  But I would advocate that we lose out by not hearing the full work even though we'll never know exactly what he would have done because everything we hear from the completed versions is pure Mahler - just maybe not where he would have landed after multiple rehearsals and subsequent revisions.  Sort of like how there is something wonderful to be gained from hearing his very early Das Klagende Lied which he heavily revised and abandoned the massive last movement.  We can gain some insight in what he struggled with and what he would have been fine with too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on April 15, 2022, 07:59:49 PM
Yes, the 10th was very much complete at least in sketch as Mahler left it, but we do not know exactly how he would have orchestrated it, except for the first movement and the first half (I think) of the third movement (Purgatorio). I think a stronger case can be made for considering the completed Mahler 10th canon than in the case of Bruckner's 9th, where despite the extensive sketches for the finale, anyone desiring to prepare a performing version of those sketches has to fill in conjectural material in places where Bruckner's sketches were either lost or never written, and we do not know exactly how Bruckner would have ended it.

I have only heard Cooke's first version (Ormandy) and his last (Levine, Rattle) and have no idea how the other performing versions compare. Of those two I prefer Cooke's last, and I prefer Rattle's reading to Levine's (by far). I must give a listen to some other "completions" at some point (the scare quotes are because Cooke never called his versions that, and was careful to say that he had only made a "performing version of the sketch").

So much music to hear, so little time!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 08:07:41 PM
Quote from: LKB on April 15, 2022, 08:10:15 AM
I'd say this sums up my views as well. Thanks, MI, for saving me the trouble.  8)

Great minds think alike. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 08:11:30 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 15, 2022, 04:02:55 PM
He DID complete the 10th symphony.  Only the first two movements were completed in full score but the symphony in its entirety was written in sketch first.  Then he made another pass of the full work flushing it out (the draft score).  He died while orchestrating it.  The complexity of the 10th is that in some cases, the sketch is more flushed out than the draft and vice versa and that's where interpretation comes in...which version is the "truer" one.  None of those versions are all that different showing just how finished the work was.  Mahler is also a composer who never stopped finicking with any of his works.  There was just a new "critical" version of his Symphony No. 4 as scholars further discovered comments he wrote through various performances of it.   

Despite what information has been gathered about the 10th, my position about it has remained unchanged and I doubt I'd ever have any kind of serious change of heart about it. I've had some other Mahlerians go as far to tell me that I'm not a Mahler fan for upholding this view, but my doubts are not without foundation and I have heard the 10th numerous times, but I'm just left with more questions than anything that was musically satisfying.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on April 15, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 08:00:50 AM
I can't claim to be a big fan of the 10th myself. Mahler is in my "Top 5" of favorite composers, but for the life of me, I struggle to appreciate what Cooke has done with it and cannot help thinking that Mahler would've gone in a completely different direction. ...

Someone should be keeping track, because it seems to me you have mentioned at least a hundred "Top 5" composers. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on April 15, 2022, 11:45:29 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 08:07:41 PM
Great minds think alike. ;) ;D

And so, it seems, do ours.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brahmsian on April 16, 2022, 04:47:36 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 15, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Someone should be keeping track, because it seems to me you have mentioned at least a hundred "Top 5" composers. :)

:laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on April 16, 2022, 06:18:49 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 15, 2022, 09:17:39 PM
Someone should be keeping track, because it seems to me you have mentioned at least a hundred "Top 5" composers. :)

;D I can't hide the fact that they used to change like the wind, but these days I'm much stable with my "Top 5", which is Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Sibelius and Bartók.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on April 16, 2022, 06:19:13 AM
Quote from: LKB on April 15, 2022, 11:45:29 PM
And so, it seems, do ours.  :laugh:

:P
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 02, 2022, 02:09:27 PM
This past weekend, for his final concerts as Houston Symphony Music Director, Andrés Orozco-Estrada led the ensemble in Mahler 2, and the broadcast is available on YouTube. Haven't watched yet, but certainly will soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi0Bed3fMRc

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2022, 02:12:00 PM
Quote from: Brewski on May 02, 2022, 02:09:27 PM
This past weekend, for his final concerts as Houston Symphony Music Director, Andrés Orozco-Estrada led the ensemble in Mahler 2, and the broadcast is available on YouTube. Haven't watched yet, but certainly will soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi0Bed3fMRc

--Bruce

Hey Bruce, I like your Schnittke quote! Now that is a memorable quote. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on May 02, 2022, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2022, 02:12:00 PM
Hey Bruce, I like your Schnittke quote! Now that is a memorable quote. :)

Thank you, John. Memorable on its own, and describes a lot of his music very well.  8)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2022, 03:05:35 PM
Quote from: Brewski on May 02, 2022, 02:14:43 PM
Thank you, John. Memorable on its own, and describes a lot of his music very well.  8)

--Bruce

Yes, indeed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 02, 2022, 05:25:35 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 08:11:30 PMI've had some other Mahlerians go as far to tell me that I'm not a Mahler fan for upholding this view...

My experience is that the more Mahlerian the fan the less likely they are to countenance the performing versions of the 10th. As for me I'm a picky Maherlian, I can do entirely without symphonies 1-3 (and the finale of 4!), and his great symphonies in my view are 5, 6, 9 (+Das Lied) ... and 10.

10 seems to me the beginning of a whole new cycle of symphonies that alas he didn't live to write. My favourite version is Barshai's, but the main problem with the performing versions is that neither Barshai, Cooke nor Wheeler are as great an orchestrator as Mahler was. In particular I think that late Mahler orchestration is both very massive and very delicate and none of the orchestrators get this quite right in their versions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on May 02, 2022, 05:59:56 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 02, 2022, 05:25:35 PM
My experience is that the more Mahlerian the fan the less likely they are to countenance the performing versions of the 10th. As for me I'm a picky Maherlian, I can do entirely without symphonies 1-3 (and the finale of 4!), and his great symphonies in my view are 5, 6, 9 (+Das Lied) ... and 10.

10 seems to me the beginning of a whole new cycle of symphonies that alas he didn't live to write. My favourite version is Barshai's, but the main problem with the performing versions is that neither Barshai, Cooke nor Wheeler are as great an orchestrator as Mahler was. In particular I think that late Mahler orchestration is both very massive and very delicate and none of the orchestrators get this quite right in their versions.

My least favorite Mahler symphonies are the 1st and 8th. The rest are absolutely brilliant and contain some desert island music for me. The 10th is where I get of the Mahlerian ship as it's not Mahler any longer, but someone else's music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on May 18, 2022, 05:53:02 PM
Just raising a glass to GM. He died on May 18th, 1911.  :blank:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 14, 2022, 06:46:23 AM
If you're listening to Mahler these days, what Mahler are you listening to?

For me, lots of these recordings:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgQRQPk4/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fWphpc0Z/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LHv0Xj1/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zG5D2C9v/image.png)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on July 14, 2022, 06:53:50 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 14, 2022, 06:46:23 AM
If you're listening to Mahler these days, what Mahler are you listening to?

For me, lots of these recordings:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgQRQPk4/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fWphpc0Z/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LHv0Xj1/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zG5D2C9v/image.png)

Not sure why but having a bit of a fallow period of listening to Mahler, despite having all the discs you have shown (and numerous others).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 07:03:10 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 14, 2022, 06:46:23 AM
If you're listening to Mahler these days, what Mahler are you listening to?

For me, lots of these recordings:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgQRQPk4/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fWphpc0Z/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LHv0Xj1/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zG5D2C9v/image.png)

All great discs, too, vers la flamme. 8) I haven't listen to a lot of Mahler lately --- I think the last recordings I listened to were these two with Klemperer:

(https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music5/v4/cf/a8/8b/cfa88b32-19d4-a133-a5ab-935c11df4487/724356725553.jpg/600x600bb.jpg)(https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music113/v4/ff/38/e7/ff38e7b1-ab28-7f2a-7e67-51552b146322/190295264192.jpg/600x600bb.jpg)

Both were outstanding in every way!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 14, 2022, 07:13:32 AM
I'm watching:

https://youtu.be/oUBx_Q-xw2M

Mahler Symphony no. 2 from the 1984 Christmas Matinee with the RCO, soloists and Haitink.

Anyone here who may think that Haitink was dour, boring, plodding etc. should go to the last few minutes of the work. By the very end, Haitink is on afterburner, he " out- Bernstein's " Bernstein. It's really quite something to see.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 07:52:41 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 14, 2022, 07:13:32 AM
I'm watching:

https://youtu.be/oUBx_Q-xw2M

Mahler Symphony no. 2 from the 1984 Christmas Matinee with the RCO, soloists and Haitink.

Anyone here who may think that Haitink was dour, boring, plodding etc. should go to the last few minutes of the work. By the very end, Haitink is on afterburner, he " out- Bernstein's " Bernstein. It's really quite something to see.

Those Matinee concerts are FANTASTIC! I own the CD box set, which I bought as a Japanese import, but its worth its weight in gold:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/f5/8a/a4f58a4dbb522c1d4ec608a1482f7184.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mapman on July 14, 2022, 09:55:02 AM
Earlier this year, I received the new Berliner Philharmoniker box as a gift, and listened to most of it.

(https://i.discogs.com/gzcM36U2CRlGX5xOQAyn27BY5KICnAiAeADbu2zP4Jg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:377/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE3MjA4/NTg5LTE2NDUwMzUy/NDYtNDQ1Ni5qcGVn.jpeg)

I'm now, slowly, working through the Gielen box.

(https://i.discogs.com/xgEiHm-rJEJ2yC_t0CQoekIhIa5r1afqULiQPvCssJI/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTExMzk3/MzUxLTE1MTU1OTg3/MzItNDM1OC5qcGVn.jpeg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 14, 2022, 10:53:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 07:52:41 AM
Those Matinee concerts are FANTASTIC! I own the CD box set, which I bought as a Japanese import, but its worth its weight in gold:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/f5/8a/a4f58a4dbb522c1d4ec608a1482f7184.jpg)

That exists!?  I had only heard bootlegs and YT streams.  I didn't know that there was an official release.  Wow I'll have to see if I can stream it.

Edit: nope I cannot.  This marks the triumph of MI as the cd collector.  Every other time MI you boasted about having something rare I easily found it on streaming.  But not this time!  You win.  I'll have to see if I can buy it (if it is still available).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 11:24:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2022, 10:53:38 AM
That exists!?  I had only heard bootlegs and YT streams.  I didn't know that there was an official release.  Wow I'll have to see if I can stream it.

Edit: nope I cannot.  This marks the triumph of MI as the cd collector.  Every other time MI you boasted about having something rare I easily found it on streaming.  But not this time!  You win.  I'll have to see if I can buy it (if it is still available).

:P I bought this set from Amazon Japan, but I imagine you could find it also on CD Japan or HMV Japan. Good luck!  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 14, 2022, 11:43:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 11:24:01 AM
:P I bought this set from Amazon Japan, but I imagine you could find it also on CD Japan or HMV Japan. Good luck!  ;)

Okay it is unavailable on Amazon JP and HMV Japan... but I found it on CD Japan (but it does say availability to be confirmed).  So I put my order in.  Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 14, 2022, 12:14:20 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2022, 11:43:19 AM
Okay it is unavailable on Amazon JP and HMV Japan... but I found it on CD Japan (but it does say availability to be confirmed).  So I put my order in.  Fingers crossed.
[/quote

I have the DVD set of these performances - GREAT hairstyles!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on July 14, 2022, 12:59:13 PM
Gielen.

My Mahler rate rarely exceeds about one symphony every 6-9 months. They need to gestate.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 14, 2022, 01:52:09 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 14, 2022, 06:46:23 AM

If you're listening to Mahler these days, what Mahler are you listening to?

For me, lots of these recordings:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgQRQPk4/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fWphpc0Z/image.png)



Excellent recordings there: the CD of the First Symphony with Boulez on DGG is what convinced me to buy his Mahler cycle as it was released.

Recently, I returned to this classic performance of Das Lied von der Erde: an excellent restoration!


https://www.youtube.com/v/XU_vuKSP2Z0&t=811s



Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 14, 2022, 04:05:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 07:52:41 AM
Those Matinee concerts are FANTASTIC! I own the CD box set, which I bought as a Japanese import, but its worth its weight in gold:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/f5/8a/a4f58a4dbb522c1d4ec608a1482f7184.jpg)

I'll be picking that up, hopefully without excessive difficulty or expense.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 05:29:39 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 14, 2022, 11:43:19 AM
Okay it is unavailable on Amazon JP and HMV Japan... but I found it on CD Japan (but it does say availability to be confirmed).  So I put my order in.  Fingers crossed.

Cool. Hopefully, you will be able to snag a copy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 14, 2022, 06:26:46 PM
There is a used copy listed on Amazon US for approximately $114. The vendor seems to be located in Japan.

Or you could opt for the new copy being offered for $298.

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphonies-Christmas-Bernard-Haitink/dp/B01HV9BD8A/
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2022, 07:15:09 PM
Quote from: LKB on July 14, 2022, 04:05:17 PM
I'll be picking that up, hopefully without excessive difficulty or expense.

Good luck, LKB! Yes, I hope you'll be able to buy the set as well.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 15, 2022, 04:28:27 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 14, 2022, 06:46:23 AM
If you're listening to Mahler these days, what Mahler are you listening to?

For me, lots of these recordings:

https://i.postimg.cc/mgQRQPk4/image.png

https://i.postimg.cc/fWphpc0Z/image.png

https://i.postimg.cc/7LHv0Xj1/image.png

https://i.postimg.cc/zG5D2C9v/image.png

I'm always sampling new performances, but I don't buy much. Some of my best purchases from this year:

Thierry Fischer Mahler 8 - almost as good as Horenstein. Discussed several pages ago in this thread.

Ancerl Mahler 9 (Czech Phil) - phenomenal performance of Mahler's 9. The "gold series" CD that has noise reduction, the earlier postage stamp CD sounds better.

Neumann's incomplete second cycle. I listened to the Supraphon cycle many times to determine if I wanted to buy this. Both area very good, but I find the performances superior on the second cycle.

(https://i.imgur.com/v9D1O9D.jpg)

In my to hear pile (I pretty much never make blind buys, this was $1) - Kaplan Mahler 2 with LSO. I don't mind the Vienna performance, I don't have any strong positive or negative opinions on Kaplan. My favorite performances are more deeply passionate than his more structured, detailed (micromanaged?) reading, I estimate I play it every five years or so, I was curious about the LSO performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 15, 2022, 09:05:00 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 14, 2022, 04:05:17 PM
I'll be picking that up, hopefully without excessive difficulty or expense.

My order was confirmed at CD Japan, which meant that their supplier had it in stock.  I should receive it in 1-2 weeks.  It was $86 shipped.  Much better than the scalper's price online.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 15, 2022, 09:08:10 AM
My recent Mahler is relistening to old favs: Gielen, Bernstein II and Chailly.  And also listening to new to me: the two Fischers and Vanska.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 15, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 15, 2022, 09:08:10 AM
My recent Mahler is relistening to old favs: Gielen, Bernstein II and Chailly.  And also listening to new to me: the two Fischers and Vanska.

Thoughts on Vänskä?

I just watched that really long Dave Hurwitz video on Mahler cycles, and as it turns out your old favs are his top three picks.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 15, 2022, 02:01:58 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 15, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Thoughts on Vänskä?

I just watched that really long Dave Hurwitz video on Mahler cycles, and as it turns out your old favs are his top three picks.

I will reserve judgment for now.  I will say that if Hurwitz also really likes Bertini and Kubelik, then I think that we are on the exact same page for Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 15, 2022, 06:39:49 PM
Hurwitz posted a new video today, apparently Breitkopf and Härtel have published a new edition of Das Lied von der Erde which corrects a minor percussion discrepancy by utilizing Mahler's autograph score.

It's not anything revelatory, but Hurwitz seems excited about it.

https://youtu.be/SCL40iEqS0o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 16, 2022, 03:59:53 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 15, 2022, 02:01:58 PM
I will reserve judgment for now.  I will say that if Hurwitz also really likes Bertini and Kubelik, then I think that we are on the exact same page for Mahler.

What don't you like about Kubelik's cycle, and I assume you mean DG? His live Audite performances are more often superior, but won't change your opinion if you don't like him. I have been meaning to revisit the Bertini cycle. Hurwitz often misses the feel for the music (unless it's from his dear Bernstein, then he will actually talk about interpretation more) but instead champions perfect orchestral playing, excitement, etc.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 05:11:32 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 16, 2022, 03:59:53 AM
What don't you like about Kubelik's cycle, and I assume you mean DG? His live Audite performances are more often superior, but won't change your opinion if you don't like him. I have been meaning to revisit the Bertini cycle. Hurwitz often misses the feel for the music (unless it's from his dear Bernstein, then he will actually talk about interpretation more) but instead champions perfect orchestral playing, excitement, etc.

I think you misread me.  I was saying that Kubelik is one of my top cycles.  And yes I do mean the Audite.  I really have no idea walked away from my post thinking I didn't like Kubelik!  But I did similar gross misreading of a post on the listening thread, so whatever. ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 16, 2022, 05:16:15 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 05:11:32 AM
I think you misread me.  I was saying that Kubelik is one of my top cycles.  And yes I do mean the Audite.  I really have no idea walked away from my post thinking I didn't like Kubelik!  But I did similar gross misreading of a post on the listening thread, so whatever. ;D

A gross misreading for sure! ??? I don't even have a good excuse, as I've already pulled two shots this morning
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 16, 2022, 05:38:50 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 15, 2022, 02:01:58 PM
I will reserve judgment for now.  I will say that if Hurwitz also really likes Bertini and Kubelik, then I think that we are on the exact same page for Mahler.

Indeed, he put Bertini in the same rank as Gielen, Bernstein and Chailly. Kubelík he rated somewhat lower but still had favorable things to say about it. I'm keeping my eyes peeled for an affordable box of the Kubelík cycle, other than that I'm not sure if I'm interested in picking up whole Mahler cycles from anyone.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: André on July 16, 2022, 05:54:46 AM
I culled the Bertini and Chailly sets from my shelves (so many discs, so little space  :o). Both have some good things but as a whole I feel they don't make the cut.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 06:13:54 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 16, 2022, 05:16:15 AM
A gross misreading for sure! ??? I don't even have a good excuse, as I've already pulled two shots this morning

My reaction was D**N he starts early!  And then I was like oh wait espresso... 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 06:16:42 AM
Quote from: André on July 16, 2022, 05:54:46 AM
I culled the Bertini and Chailly sets from my shelves (so many discs, so little space  :o). Both have some good things but as a whole I feel they don't make the cut.

I suppose we should have different tiers

1. I must own it on cd!
2. I need to retain a digital download/cd rip.
3. I'll stream if it I want to hear it again.
4. If I never hear it again it will be too soon!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 16, 2022, 06:18:43 AM
Someone recommend me a Mahler 3? I have Haitink/BRSO on BR Klassik (a true killer) and Bernstein/NY on Sony (the classic). Maybe something different from either of these?

Any thoughts on Abbado's 3rd? I liked what I heard, sampling some of his first recording in Vienna and his later Berlin recording.

Boulez?

Horenstein in London I know is a classic and I see an affordable copy currently. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 16, 2022, 06:26:16 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 16, 2022, 06:18:43 AM
Someone recommend me a Mahler 3? I have Haitink/BRSO on BR Klassik (a true killer) and Bernstein/NY on Sony (the classic). Maybe something different from either of these?

Any thoughts on Abbado's 3rd? I liked what I heard, sampling some of his first recording in Vienna and his later Berlin recording.

Boulez?

Horenstein in London I know is a classic and I see an affordable copy currently. Thoughts?

If you can find it for a good price, the Tennstedt/LPO live 3rd on the ICA Classics label is one of my favorites:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f1/60/15/f16015c3ad34be030ce20b03783e5ab7.jpg)

Another incredibly fine 3rd is the Abbado/Wiener Philharmoniker you mentioned (Jessye Norman is on it and sings wonderfully). I'm less impressed with his live Berliner recording. Chailly is also one of the great performances.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 06:28:39 AM
My favorite is Ivan Fischer. 

I like Abbado's Berlin, I haven't heard the Vienna.

The Boulez M3 is one of the few Boulez Mahler recordings I haven't heard.  I'm sure MI and Traverso will jump in though.

Ivan Fischer's style is very transparent and detailed (and he has that gorgeous and controversial upward oboe glissando) but I think it might be a mistake to label him as classicist or modernist.  There is plenty of passion to be found here.  I would just say that he is unique. 

It provides great contrast to my second favorite, the Bernstein NYPO which you already own.

(https://www.theartsdesk.com/sites/default/files/images/stories/CLASSICAL/graham_rickson/Mahler%203%20Fischer.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 16, 2022, 07:08:01 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 16, 2022, 06:18:43 AM
Someone recommend me a Mahler 3?

Haitink's first recording (1960s, on Philips originally) has lasted really well with me, although if you already have a Haitink, you may not want him twice. Chailly with the same orchestra is also good and has killer sound.

I have the Horenstein on LP. Nowadays, the playing and sonics would not be competitive. It's worth hearing for the interpretation, which presents a very unified conception of the piece.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 16, 2022, 07:15:51 AM
For M3, try the filmed performance of the VPO  with Bernstein from the '70's. Decent sound, Christa Ludwig is excellent in mvmt. 4, and an actual post horn for the off- stage solos in mvmt. 3.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 16, 2022, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 16, 2022, 05:38:50 AM
Indeed, he put Bertini in the same rank as Gielen, Bernstein and Chailly. Kubelík he rated somewhat lower but still had favorable things to say about it. I'm keeping my eyes peeled for an affordable box of the Kubelík cycle, other than that I'm not sure if I'm interested in picking up whole Mahler cycles from anyone.
The main complaint about Kubelik I have seen is the sound. I don't think it's bad but it's rather average for ca. 1970.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 08:35:03 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 16, 2022, 07:08:01 AM
I have the Horenstein on LP. Nowadays, the playing and sonics would not be competitive. It's worth hearing for the interpretation, which presents a very unified conception of the piece.

And the cds are mostly oop and bronzed.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 16, 2022, 08:35:21 AM
A very left field Mahler 3 - not instead of any of the main recommendations but an "as well as"

Armin Jordan/L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/082/MI0001082648.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

I bought this for the Zemlinsky but most definitely stayed for the Mahler.  A live performance but quite a thriller.  As I say perhaps not the "One Mahler 3 to rule them all" but certainly worth hearing.......
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 16, 2022, 06:50:03 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 16, 2022, 06:18:43 AM
Someone recommend me a Mahler 3? I have Haitink/BRSO on BR Klassik (a true killer) and Bernstein/NY on Sony (the classic). Maybe something different from either of these?

Any thoughts on Abbado's 3rd? I liked what I heard, sampling some of his first recording in Vienna and his later Berlin recording.

Boulez?

Horenstein in London I know is a classic and I see an affordable copy currently. Thoughts?

Zinman does a good job with the Third.
Jens has long advocated for the Boulez.

There are two recordings I would say should be avoided: Rattle and Mehta/BRSO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 17, 2022, 07:01:46 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 16, 2022, 06:28:39 AMThe Boulez M3 is one of the few Boulez Mahler recordings I haven't heard.  I'm sure MI and Traverso will jump in though.

Absolutely! Love the Boulez recording of the 3rd. But this was to be expected as I like the Mahler Boulez cycle in general.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 17, 2022, 08:21:56 AM
Pulled the trigger on Abbado/Vienna. But I appreciate all these other recs and hope to hear them all some day.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 17, 2022, 02:12:11 PM
Anyone listening to the Wunderhorn-Lieder lately? It's kind of just clicking with me how amazing they are! Chailly/RCO with Barbara Bonney, Matthias Goerne, Sara Fulgoni and Gösta Winbergh. What recordings do y'all like?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: VonStupp on July 17, 2022, 02:30:17 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 17, 2022, 02:12:11 PM
Anyone listening to the Wunderhorn-Lieder lately? It's kind of just clicking with me how amazing they are! Chailly/RCO with Barbara Bonney, Matthias Goerne, Sara Fulgoni and Gösta Winbergh. What recordings do y'all like?

It has been a very, very long time. Not necessarily tops, the last three I listened to were:

Bernstein/Ludwig/Berry
Tilson-Thomas/Graham/Hampson
Abbado/von Otter/Quasthoff

Quasthoff is a favorite baritone of mine, so I am biased.

VS
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 17, 2022, 02:42:55 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 17, 2022, 02:12:11 PM
Anyone listening to the Wunderhorn-Lieder lately? It's kind of just clicking with me how amazing they are! Chailly/RCO with Barbara Bonney, Matthias Goerne, Sara Fulgoni and Gösta Winbergh. What recordings do y'all like?

The " historically indispensable " recording ( by most accounts ) features Fischer-Dieskau and Schwarzkopf with Szell conducting the LSO on EMI.

https://a.co/d/gZIOqS1

While I've never been a fan of Schwarzkopf, I'd agree that if you can only have one recording, it's probably the best choice.

My other favorite features Jesse Norman with John Shirley-Quirk, supported by Haitink and the RCO on Philips. It's not as memorable as the EMI overall, but I'll take Norman over Schwarzkopf any day.

https://a.co/d/hnEVGdQ

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 17, 2022, 05:05:19 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 17, 2022, 08:21:56 AM
Pulled the trigger on Abbado/Vienna. But I appreciate all these other recs and hope to hear them all some day.

This must be the most American colloquialism  ;D

Someone mentioned bronzing CDs on the Horenstein Mahler 3, mine are bronzed but they play fine. It's among my favorite performances. This is my other favorite performance of Mahler 3, I'm looking forward to hearing Bychkov's cycle. Maybe someone would care to comment on the 4th that has been out a few weeks now.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51C1BouKbGL.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 17, 2022, 07:07:32 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 17, 2022, 08:21:56 AM
Pulled the trigger on Abbado/Vienna. But I appreciate all these other recs and hope to hear them all some day.

A fine choice, but you didn't post this is in the "Purchases" thread. ;) :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 17, 2022, 11:37:05 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 17, 2022, 05:05:19 PM
This must be the most American colloquialism  ;D

Someone mentioned bronzing CDs on the Horenstein Mahler 3, mine are bronzed but they play fine. It's among my favorite performances. This is my other favorite performance of Mahler 3, I'm looking forward to hearing Bychkov's cycle. Maybe someone would care to comment on the 4th that has been out a few weeks now.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51C1BouKbGL.jpg)

DO make a disc copy of your Horenstein set as soon as you can or at very least rip a WAV/lossless digital file.  Thos bronzed discs WILL fail or at least start skipping etc and probably fairly soon........
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 18, 2022, 11:14:54 AM
I listened to the Boulez recording of Mahler's 5th Symphony and I enjoyed it very much; Boulez has a precise, full tone and a conducting style of great clearness and incisiveness that fit very well to 20th century composers, but not so perfectly to Romantic/Late Romantic composers in my opinion; but this recording surprised me in a positive way, it was better than I thought: the first two movements didn't exactly have all the passionate intensity and all the depth and richness of emotions that I expected for Mahler's music (like, for example, in the Bernstein, the Solti or the Tennstedt), the performances resulted a little dry and analytic, although they were very remarkable and they showed meticulousness in the construction of the sound structure; while the Scherzo, the Adagietto and the Rondò-Finale were very beautiful and suggestive.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2022, 12:08:22 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 18, 2022, 11:14:54 AM
I listened to the Boulez recording of Mahler's 5th Symphony and I enjoyed it very much; Boulez has a precise, full tone and a conducting style of great clearness and incisiveness that fit very well to 20th century composers, but not so perfectly to Romantic/Late Romantic composers in my opinion; but this recording surprised me in a positive way, it was better than I thought: the first two movements didn't exactly have all the passionate intensity and all the depth and richness of emotions that I expected for Mahler's music (like, for example, in the Bernstein, the Solti or the Tennstedt), the performances resulted a little dry and analytic, although they were very remarkable and they showed meticulousness in the construction of the sound structure; while the Scherzo, the Adagietto and the Rondò-Finale were very beautiful and suggestive.

And you see, this is why I like the Boulez Mahler recordings --- they allow you to hear everything without a conductor's interference, although I think with Boulez, he probably made some textural adjustments (possibly with tempi, too) to get it closer to how he hears the music beyond the score itself. He does a remarkable job and I prefer him to the Gielen who Boulez is sometimes compared to, although I believe Gielen's recording of the 7th is just as inspired as Boulez's. One of the nice things about the Gielen Mahler series were the couplings --- Ives, Schreker and even good ol' Boulez. I'll have to revisit some of the Boulez recordings while I'm on vacation as I've been meaning to as I believe I stopped on the 4th in my last attempted run-through.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 18, 2022, 12:25:58 PM
My library is lacking in recordings of the Concertgebouw playing Mahler. Any recommendations, especially as far as individual recordings go—I'm not really trying to pick up a whole cycle right now, though I wouldn't mind getting the Chailly/RCO cycle at some point in my life if I can find it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 18, 2022, 12:33:20 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 18, 2022, 12:08:22 PM
One of the nice things about the Gielen Mahler series were the couplings --- Ives, Schreker and even good ol' Boulez.

Actually those couplings were only in the individual releases, in the box sets they were discarded.  Both of us enjoyed them, but most listeners did not and just skipped them.

I'm kind of surprised how much love everyone here has for Boulez's Mahler.  They're not bad but pretty middle of the road.  Good.  But I've heard many recordings that are more interesting.

I'm the anti-Hurwitz here because I don't enjoy Boulez's conducting that much over all, but I like some of his compositions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 18, 2022, 12:52:33 PM
For his live cycle on DG, Bernstein recorded with the RCO  ( or " COA ", as they were known back in the '80's when these recordings were made ) for Mahler's First, Fourth and Ninth Symphonies.

The First and Ninth can be conditionally recommended, as Bernstein takes minor liberties at times. None of these indulgences are especially damaging, but they're there and if you're a purist they might annoy you. The end of the Ninth, it should be noted, is exceedingly slow.

The Fourth is rather unusual in that it features a boy soprano for the final movement, a curious choice and not one I'm comfortable with. But the first three movements are great, so it comes down to your ability to tolerate the last movement.

Chailly's set has a strong reputation, and while Haitink has earlier sound in most cases, his latter digital Seventh is very good, my favorite in fact.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 18, 2022, 12:55:28 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 18, 2022, 12:25:58 PM
My library is lacking in recordings of the Concertgebouw playing Mahler. Any recommendations, especially as far as individual recordings go—I'm not really trying to pick up a whole cycle right now, though I wouldn't mind getting the Chailly/RCO cycle at some point in my life if I can find it.

I would recommend you Jansons' recordings with the Concertgebouw Orchestra; Bernstein's DG recordings of No.1, No. 4 and NO.9 too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2022, 01:02:02 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 18, 2022, 12:33:20 PM
Actually those couplings were only in the individual releases, in the box sets they were discarded.  Both of us enjoyed them, but most listeners did not and just skipped them.

I'm kind of surprised how much love everyone here has for Boulez's Mahler.  They're not bad but pretty middle of the road.  Good.  But I've heard many recordings that are more interesting.

I'm the anti-Hurwitz here because I don't enjoy Boulez's conducting that much over all, but I like some of his compositions.

Yeah, I was talking about the individual releases and should've been more specific. Actually, Hurwitz isn't much of a fan of Boulez either (I think he likes his earlier recordings for Columbia, though). He practically worships Bernstein, though, and Leonard Slatkin, too, but I think this is only because they're very good friends.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: VonStupp on July 18, 2022, 02:34:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 18, 2022, 12:25:58 PM
My library is lacking in recordings of the Concertgebouw playing Mahler. Any recommendations, especially as far as individual recordings go—I'm not really trying to pick up a whole cycle right now, though I wouldn't mind getting the Chailly/RCO cycle at some point in my life if I can find it.

I believe Solti did at least Mahler 4 and Das Lied von der Erde with the Concertgebouw. I don't think, however, any were recommendable over what he led with London and Chicago. Perhaps misremembering too...I am well overdue for a visit with Mahler.

VS
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 18, 2022, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 18, 2022, 12:08:22 PM
And you see, this is why I like the Boulez Mahler recordings --- they allow you to hear everything without a conductor's interference, although I think with Boulez, he probably made some textural adjustments (possibly with tempi, too) to get it closer to how he hears the music beyond the score itself. He does a remarkable job and I prefer him to the Gielen who Boulez is sometimes compared to, although I believe Gielen's recording of the 7th is just as inspired as Boulez's. One of the nice things about the Gielen Mahler series were the couplings --- Ives, Schreker and even good ol' Boulez. I'll have to revisit some of the Boulez recordings while I'm on vacation as I've been meaning to as I believe I stopped on the 4th in my last attempted run-through.

Good point, I understand what you mean; Boulez' interpretation is certainly fascinating for the timbral fullness, the clarity and the meticulousness of the sound texture (Mahler's orchestral structure is always dense and complex), but, as Mahler's music is very introspective and meditative about the world, but at the same time very personal about the composer himself, I think it can't be too cold and analytic, because otherwise it would lack in suggestive power and in what the composer wanted to evoke and describe with his works; of course, it shouldn't exceed in passion and energy either, or it would be pathetic. Not that the Boulez recording is completely lacking in intensity and powerful feelings, but it hangs on a more synthetic approach than other versions.
Same thing for his Wagner, for example, that I find terribly good, but too dry.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 18, 2022, 03:23:39 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 18, 2022, 12:25:58 PM
My library is lacking in recordings of the Concertgebouw playing Mahler. Any recommendations, especially as far as individual recordings go—I'm not really trying to pick up a whole cycle right now, though I wouldn't mind getting the Chailly/RCO cycle at some point in my life if I can find it.

Haitink's early Mahler cycle with the Con'bouw contains some still classic performances - the 3rd, the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde.

I haven't heard the whole of Chailly's cycle but his 5th is my overall favorite of all 5ths ever! One of those recordings where just everything goes right.

Quote from: LKB on July 18, 2022, 12:52:33 PM
while Haitink has earlier sound in most cases, his latter digital Seventh is very good, my favorite in fact.

Are you referring to the one recorded around 1982? That's a good one, might be hard to find nowadays.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 18, 2022, 04:50:58 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 18, 2022, 03:23:39 PM
Haitink's early Mahler cycle with the Con'bouw contains some still classic performances - the 3rd, the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde.

I haven't heard the whole of Chailly's cycle but his 5th is my overall favorite of all 5ths ever! One of those recordings where just everything goes right.

Are you referring to the one recorded around 1982? That's a good one, might be hard to find nowadays.

Yes, released in 1983 iirc. Arkivmusic produced it on license before they went into hiatus, but it's still available elsewhere:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-7-Gustav/dp/B00000E2N9/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=38JRJGFGMTX2R&keywords=Haitink+Mahler+7&qid=1658191724&sprefix=haitink+mahler+7%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-1#
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2022, 05:12:04 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 18, 2022, 02:48:05 PM
Good point, I understand what you mean; Boulez' interpretation is certainly fascinating for the timbral fullness, the clarity and the meticulousness of the sound texture (Mahler's orchestral structure is always dense and complex), but, as Mahler's music is very introspective and meditative about the world, but at the same time very personal about the composer himself, I think it can't be too cold and analytic, because otherwise it would lack in suggestive power and in what the composer wanted to evoke and describe with his works; of course, it shouldn't exceed in passion and energy either, or it would be pathetic. Not that the Boulez recording is completely lacking in intensity and powerful feelings, but it hangs on a more synthetic approach than other versions.
Same thing for his Wagner, for example, that I find terribly good, but too dry.

As it has been said before but there's more than one way to skin a cat. One of the more remarkable things about Boulez's approach is how, as we both mentioned, the scoring becomes more clear and there is music that sometimes is buried in other performances. For this reason, Haitink is another one of my favorite Mahlerians. He performs the music as it is and brings out all of the emotions that are within the work, it's just that they aren't over-the-top in their emotionalism. We have to remember that this isn't Expressionistic music, it's Late-Romantic that has a clear hindsight into the future and what was to come or, at least, in Germanic music. Anyway, it's just a different Mahler altogether and it's an approach that works for me, but I know Boulez has many detractors.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 18, 2022, 05:14:21 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 18, 2022, 02:48:05 PM
Good point, I understand what you mean; Boulez' interpretation is certainly fascinating for the timbral fullness, the clarity and the meticulousness of the sound texture (Mahler's orchestral structure is always dense and complex), but, as Mahler's music is very introspective and meditative about the world, but at the same time very personal about the composer himself, I think it can't be too cold and analytic, because otherwise it would lack in suggestive power and in what the composer wanted to evoke and describe with his works; of course, it shouldn't exceed in passion and energy either, or it would be pathetic. Not that the Boulez recording is completely lacking in intensity and powerful feelings, but it hangs on a more synthetic approach than other versions.
Same thing for his Wagner, for example, that I find terribly good, but too dry.

I agree.  That is also why I love Bertini and Kubelik so much.  They deliver such balanced performances.  Neither cold nor drunk with passion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 19, 2022, 01:11:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 18, 2022, 05:12:04 PM
As it has been said before but there's more than one way to skin a cat. One of the more remarkable things about Boulez's approach is how, as we both mentioned, the scoring becomes more clear and there is music that sometimes is buried in other performances. For this reason, Haitink is another one of my favorite Mahlerians. He performs the music as it is and brings out all of the emotions that are within the work, it's just that they aren't over-the-top in their emotionalism. We have to remember that this isn't Expressionistic music, it's Late-Romantic that has a clear hindsight into the future and what was to come or, at least, in Germanic music. Anyway, it's just a different Mahler altogether and it's an approach that works for me, but I know Boulez has many detractors.

Of course, there's not one single way to appreciate Mahler (as well as composers in general) and that someone prefers Bernstein's intertepretation, Boulez's or another one, in any case, uns bliebe gleich die heil'ge Mahlers Kunst.  ;)
I'll test Boulez' style with the 8th Symphony, that Schönberg considered the peak of Mahler's music.  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on July 19, 2022, 05:06:23 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 18, 2022, 03:23:39 PM
Haitink's early Mahler cycle with the Con'bouw contains some still classic performances - the 3rd, the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde.

I was also going to cite Haitink's first recording of M9.  Marvellous music and a superb orchestral recording - though dating from the very early '70s this was a Philips 'golden age' for recording quality, and especially in the Concertgebouw.
I think I've read, elsewhere on this site, that a recent Decca-branded remaster of these recordings has done them damage.  I don't know how true this is, but I would seek out an older Philips-branded version to be safe.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 19, 2022, 06:03:37 AM
What do you all think of Erich Leinsdorf's Mahler?  I've only heard No. 1 with Boston I think and thought quite highly of it but don't see him frequently mentioned.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 06:27:44 AM
What are y'all's favorite Mahler 10ths? For any of the completions I've only heard the Rattle/Berlin. For the adagio standalone I only have Bernstein. Really do not know this symphony well.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: VonStupp on July 19, 2022, 06:28:49 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 06:27:44 AM
What are y'all's favorite Mahler 10ths? For any of the completions I've only heard the Rattle/Berlin. For the adagio standalone I only have Bernstein. Really do not know this symphony well.

Ormandy for a classic & Inbal to set beside Rattle.

VS
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2022, 06:38:56 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 19, 2022, 01:11:12 AM
Of course, there's not one single way to appreciate Mahler (as well as composers in general) and that someone prefers Bernstein's intertepretation, Boulez's or another one, in any case, uns bliebe gleich die heil'ge Mahlers Kunst.  ;)
I'll test Boulez' style with the 8th Symphony, that Schönberg considered the peak of Mahler's music.  :)

Indeed and I will say that Bernstein is my favorite Mahler conductor overall or, at least, in the symphonies and song cycles, but both of his recordings of Das Lied von der Erde come up short for me. For Das Lied von der Erde, it's still difficult to best Baker/King/Haitink, but certainly there some others that come close for me like Ludwig/Wunderlich/Klemperer and the more recent Connolly/Smith/Jurowski.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on July 19, 2022, 06:48:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 19, 2022, 06:03:37 AM
What do you all think of Erich Leinsdorf's Mahler?  I've only heard No. 1 with Boston I think and thought quite highly of it but don't see him frequently mentioned.

Leinsdorf also recorded the Third but I don't recall it being anything special.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 08:44:02 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 19, 2022, 06:03:37 AM
What do you all think of Erich Leinsdorf's Mahler?  I've only heard No. 1 with Boston I think and thought quite highly of it but don't see him frequently mentioned.

Was that the recording that included the "Blumine" movement? Or am I thinking of Ormandy/Phila?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 08:47:08 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 06:27:44 AM
What are y'all's favorite Mahler 10ths? For any of the completions I've only heard the Rattle/Berlin. For the adagio standalone I only have Bernstein. Really do not know this symphony well.

For the final Cooke version I do like the Rattle. My only comparison is Levine, which I really didn't like. For the first Cooke I've only heard Ormandy, but that performance really blew me away the first time I heard it. I do think the final Cooke scoring sounds more Mahlerian, especially in the last two movements.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 19, 2022, 09:25:19 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2022, 06:38:56 AM
Indeed and I will say that Bernstein is my favorite Mahler conductor overall or, at least, in the symphonies and song cycles, but both of his recordings of Das Lied von der Erde come up short for me. For Das Lied von der Erde, it's still difficult to best Baker/King/Haitink, but certainly there some others that come close for me like Ludwig/Wunderlich/Klemperer and the more recent Connolly/Smith/Jurowski.

About Das Lied von der Erde, I think the Bernstein is very fine, though my favourite version is Ludwig/Kollo/Karajan; another beautiful recording is Carlos Kleiber's in my opinion. But apart from those ones, I must confess I don't know other recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 19, 2022, 09:50:23 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 06:27:44 AM
What are y'all's favorite Mahler 10ths? For any of the completions I've only heard the Rattle/Berlin. For the adagio standalone I only have Bernstein. Really do not know this symphony well.

For the Adagio only, I think Gergiev and Tilson Thomas are the best. Both were released as couplings for the Second Symphony.
In the case of Gergiev, it's the only part of his Mahler cycle that's really first rate.
You can listen to it via Youtube here
https://youtu.be/cJEkTW9Ydcg
I think MTT's Second is one of the best, so I won't post a video but tell you to buy it.😈
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 19, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 08:47:08 AM

For the first Cooke I've only heard Ormandy, but that performance really blew me away the first time I heard it.

I do think the final Cooke scoring sounds more Mahlerian, especially in the last two movements.




Amen to both opinions!

When I was in college, I used to frequent a music store in Dayton where I bought music paper and the occasional fountain pen.

One day I was absolutely astonished to see the score of Cooke's completion of Mahler's Tenth Symphony...

...for $12.00 !!!

To be sure, this was back when $12.00 bought much more than today!  At the time I was working for the U.S. minimum wage of $1.40 per hour, but this was such a bargain that I was positive somebody had mis-marked the price.  $21.00 was much more likely, given the price of the (not very many) study scores in the store. 

Yes, I still have it: with the exception of the paper turning slightly yellow, it is in fine shape...not unlike its owner!   8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2022, 10:44:49 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 19, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
[ snip]
...for $12.00 !!!

To be sure, this was back when $12.00 bought much more than today!  At the time I was working for the U.S. minimum wage of $1.40 per hour, but this was such a bargain that I was positive somebody had mis-marked the price.  $21.00 was much more likely, given the price of the (not very many) study scores in the store. 


There are Timex ads strewn though the Laugh-In pilot ... their luxury watch was priced then at $15.95.


One of these days, I should listen to the entire Tenth.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: classicalgeek on July 19, 2022, 10:51:27 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 08:47:08 AM
For the final Cooke version I do like the Rattle. My only comparison is Levine, which I really didn't like. For the first Cooke I've only heard Ormandy, but that performance really blew me away the first time I heard it. I do think the final Cooke scoring sounds more Mahlerian, especially in the last two movements.

I'll second the recommendation for Rattle... I imprinted on his first version of the Cooke completion. It's coupled with a great version of the Brahms/Schoenberg Piano Quartet:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WC5GBCpoL._SX425_.jpg)

And there an excellent, more recent version (also of the Cooke completion) by the Seattle Symphony (shout out for my hometown band!):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71G9DosslrL._SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 10:52:54 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 19, 2022, 10:34:18 AM
Amen to both opinions!

When I was in college, I used to frequent a music store in Dayton where I bought music paper and the occasional fountain pen.

One day I was absolutely astonished to see the score of Cooke's completion of Mahler's Tenth Symphony...

...for $12.00 !!!

To be sure, this was back when $12.00 bought much more than today!  At the time I was working for the U.S. minimum wage of $1.40 per hour, but this was such a bargain that I was positive somebody had mis-marked the price.  $21.00 was much more likely, given the price of the (not very many) study scores in the store. 

Yes, I still have it: with the exception of the paper turning slightly yellow, it is in fine shape...not unlike its owner!   8)

I envy you! When I was in 11th grade, a friend and I took a trip to the Detroit Public Library's Main Branch, where they supposedly had a copy of the score - this was 1971, so I believe it had to be the first version. Unfortunately, it was locked away and we could not even see it from outside a case, much less examine it. :(
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2022, 12:47:15 PM
Quote from: classicalgeek on July 19, 2022, 10:51:27 AM
I'll second the recommendation for Rattle... I imprinted on his first version of the Cooke completion. It's coupled with a great version of the Brahms/Schoenberg Piano Quartet:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WC5GBCpoL._SX425_.jpg)

I'm game to try!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: classicalgeek on July 19, 2022, 10:51:27 AM
I'll second the recommendation for Rattle... I imprinted on his first version of the Cooke completion. It's coupled with a great version of the Brahms/Schoenberg Piano Quartet:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WC5GBCpoL._SX425_.jpg)

And there an excellent, more recent version (also of the Cooke completion) by the Seattle Symphony (shout out for my hometown band!):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71G9DosslrL._SX425_.jpg)

I've heard neither of those two versions. This is the one I was thinking of (I always assumed it came before the Birmingham recording):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61SFAocKkKL.jpg)

Rattle made some changes to Cooke's score for this performance - notably, restoring the cymbal crash at the end of II (from Cooke's first version I believe), and joining IV and V via the bass drum stroke, rather than repeating it. In the latter I think he was correct; the former is a matter of taste and may or may not have been what Mahler intended.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mapman on July 19, 2022, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 01:24:22 PM
I've heard neither of those two versions. This is the one I was thinking of (I always assumed it came before the Birmingham recording):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61SFAocKkKL.jpg)

Rattle made some changes to Cooke's score for this performance - notably, restoring the cymbal crash at the end of II (from Cooke's first version I believe), and joining IV and V via the bass drum stroke, rather than repeating it. In the latter I think he was correct; the former is a matter of taste and may or may not have been what Mahler intended.

According to Discogs, those Rattle CDs are the same recording. On the other one, they split the symphony between two CDs, and added the Brahms coupling. (Maybe they couldn't put 76 minutes of music on one CD yet?)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 19, 2022, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 06:27:44 AM
What are y'all's favorite Mahler 10ths? For any of the completions I've only heard the Rattle/Berlin. For the adagio standalone I only have Bernstein. Really do not know this symphony well.

Neither does anyone else, so you have lots of company.  ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 19, 2022, 01:52:12 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 19, 2022, 09:25:19 AM
About Das Lied von der Erde, I think the Bernstein is very fine, though my favourite version is Ludwig/Kollo/Karajan; another beautiful recording is Carlos Kleiber's in my opinion. But apart from those ones, I must confess I don't know other recordings.

Von Karajan's is also my favorite, and l turn to Haitink when l want a change.

I've heard a few others including Kleiber's, but l must say none of them impressed me much.

( Corrected an error in punctuation - LKB )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on July 19, 2022, 01:56:05 PM
Quote from: classicalgeek on July 19, 2022, 10:51:27 AM
I'll second the recommendation for Rattle... I imprinted on his first version of the Cooke completion. It's coupled with a great version of the Brahms/Schoenberg Piano Quartet:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61WC5GBCpoL._SX425_.jpg)

And there an excellent, more recent version (also of the Cooke completion) by the Seattle Symphony (shout out for my hometown band!):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71G9DosslrL._SX425_.jpg)

Another vote for Rattle/Bournemouth, and for the Seattle recording, as well. The latter is in exceptionally good sound, as are most of the orchestra's recent recordings. My favorite is Chailly/RSO Berlin, again in great sound.

In other news, for anyone in or near NYC on August 4: two pianists -- Stewart Goodyear and Jed Distler -- are doing a two piano/four hands version of Mahler's Ninth at the Catacombs at Green-Wood Cemetery in Brooklyn. I've been to a few of the concerts there, and the venue is unique: actual catacombs, in a long, narrow space with thick walls. Sound is quite good, and only about 150 people can fit inside, so it's intimate.

I can't go, but am mightily curious to hear the arrangement.

https://www.green-wood.com/event/mahlers-9th-for-four-hands/2022-08-04/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2022, 01:57:57 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 06:27:44 AM
What are y'all's favorite Mahler 10ths? For any of the completions I've only heard the Rattle/Berlin. For the adagio standalone I only have Bernstein. Really do not know this symphony well.

I have not yet listened to any of it apart from the Adagio. It may be heresy, but I esp. love the Kremerata Baltica string arrangement of the Adagio.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: JBS on July 19, 2022, 09:50:23 AM
For the Adagio only, I think Gergiev and Tilson Thomas are the best. Both were released as couplings for the Second Symphony.
In the case of Gergiev, it's the only part of his Mahler cycle that's really first rate.
You can listen to it via Youtube here
https://youtu.be/cJEkTW9Ydcg
I think MTT's Second is one of the best, so I won't post a video but tell you to buy it.😈

Thanks for the recs. I've heard nothing but negativity toward Gergiev's cycle, until this post. I would like to hear more of MTT's Mahler. I have his recording of the 7th with the LSO from the '90s, and it's really damn good actually. (In fact, I like all my recordings of the 7th, with the exception of Klemperer which I just do not get.) I'll keep my eyes peeled for that 2nd. You are speaking of the SFS recording right?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71GKxPQTZRL._SL1281_.jpg)

I think I'll plan on listening to the Rattle/Berlin 10th one of these days (if not today). Seems folks like the earlier Bournemouth better; maybe that's the one I ought to have gotten. I'd pick it up as it's really quite cheap but I'm not sure I like Rattle enough as a conductor to own two recordings of his of the same symphony. Oh well.

I do want to check out the Ormandy. It looks great, and I don't think I've heard him conduct Mahler, but I suspect he'd be good at it (as would I expect the Philadelphians to be good at playing Mahler).

Like a lot of us these days, I am on a Mahler bender. But I've been avoiding 2, 6, DLvdE & 9. Those symphonies are special and I'm afraid I may have burned them all out heavily a couple of years back. However I did just pick up the Karajan/Berlin 6th and ought to give it a spin one of these days just to see what it's all about. Kind of a controversial recording for some.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2022, 02:05:18 PM
Quote from: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 08:47:08 AM
For the final Cooke version I do like the Rattle. My only comparison is Levine, which I really didn't like. For the first Cooke I've only heard Ormandy, but that performance really blew me away the first time I heard it. I do think the final Cooke scoring sounds more Mahlerian, especially in the last two movements.

I also recommend Ormandy...but I love Levine too. Both conductors are passionate in the closing pages unlike any others. I think Rattle/Bournemouth is cold here; he completely misses the passion inherent in the music (Mahler's love letter to Alma).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 19, 2022, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2022, 02:05:18 PM
I also recommend Ormandy...but I love Levine too. Both conductors are passionate in the closing pages unlike any others. I think Rattle/Bournemouth is cold here; he completely misses the passion inherent in the music (Mahler's love letter to Alma).

Sarge

You remind me that I need to spend more time with this box, Sarge.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 19, 2022, 02:18:42 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 02:04:37 PM
Thanks for the recs. I've heard nothing but negativity toward Gergiev's cycle, until this post. I would like to hear more of MTT's Mahler. I have his recording of the 7th with the LSO from the '90s, and it's really damn good actually. (In fact, I like all my recordings of the 7th, with the exception of Klemperer which I just do not get.) I'll keep my eyes peeled for that 2nd. You are speaking of the SFS recording right?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71GKxPQTZRL._SL1281_.jpg)

I think I'll plan on listening to the Rattle/Berlin 10th one of these days (if not today). Seems folks like the earlier Bournemouth better; maybe that's the one I ought to have gotten. I'd pick it up as it's really quite cheap but I'm not sure I like Rattle enough as a conductor to own two recordings of his of the same symphony. Oh well.

I do want to check out the Ormandy. It looks great, and I don't think I've heard him conduct Mahler, but I suspect he'd be good at it (as would I expect the Philadelphians to be good at playing Mahler).

Like a lot of us these days, I am on a Mahler bender. But I've been avoiding 2, 6, DLvdE & 9. Those symphonies are special and I'm afraid I may have burned them all out heavily a couple of years back. However I did just pick up the Karajan/Berlin 6th and ought to give it a spin one of these days just to see what it's all about. Kind of a controversial recording for some.

I'm local to San Francisco, have been since 1971 save seven years when l lived in Kansas. As one might expect, I've attended San Francisco Symphony concerts many times, and have heard MTT conduct Mahler in most of the symphonies.

My advice would be to ignore MTT in Mahler 1-4, and seek him out in 7-9 and 10 Adagio. ( In other words, l find his early Mahler forgettable and his late Mahler very worthwhile. )

And by the way, von Karajan's 6th kick's a$$ big time. I've owned that recording since it was released, and the end scares the s**t right out of me every time.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 19, 2022, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: Biffo on July 19, 2022, 06:48:56 AM
Leinsdorf also recorded the Third but I don't recall it being anything special.

It looks like there is a sixth too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FShptpKEl8g
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 19, 2022, 04:41:44 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 19, 2022, 02:04:37 PM
Thanks for the recs. I've heard nothing but negativity toward Gergiev's cycle, until this post. I would like to hear more of MTT's Mahler. I have his recording of the 7th with the LSO from the '90s, and it's really damn good actually. (In fact, I like all my recordings of the 7th, with the exception of Klemperer which I just do not get.) I'll keep my eyes peeled for that 2nd. You are speaking of the SFS recording right?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71GKxPQTZRL._SL1281_.jpg)

I think I'll plan on listening to the Rattle/Berlin 10th one of these days (if not today). Seems folks like the earlier Bournemouth better; maybe that's the one I ought to have gotten. I'd pick it up as it's really quite cheap but I'm not sure I like Rattle enough as a conductor to own two recordings of his of the same symphony. Oh well.

I do want to check out the Ormandy. It looks great, and I don't think I've heard him conduct Mahler, but I suspect he'd be good at it (as would I expect the Philadelphians to be good at playing Mahler).

Like a lot of us these days, I am on a Mahler bender. But I've been avoiding 2, 6, DLvdE & 9. Those symphonies are special and I'm afraid I may have burned them all out heavily a couple of years back. However I did just pick up the Karajan/Berlin 6th and ought to give it a spin one of these days just to see what it's all about. Kind of a controversial recording for some.

That's the MTT2 I meant. The presence of LHL obviously helps.

I am generally negative towards Gergiev's Mahler. Only this 10th Adagio and possibly the Third are really worth hearing.

I don't have Rattle Bournemouth but I have almost all of Karajan's Mahler and like it a lot. (I only have one of his M9 recordings.)

Two complete 10th recordings to avoid are Zinman and Slatkin, mostly because of the versions they use (Mazetti and Carpenter iirc).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on July 19, 2022, 05:02:02 PM
All the talk about the Tenth, I realized I hadn't listened to Vänskä and Minnesota, so doing that now, and it definitely seems like a contender. The dynamic range is enormous: I had to crank up the volume quite a bit, and now am slightly amused and anxious at how loud the climaxes are likely to be. Never mind. It's a great reading, filled with mystery and surprises.

(https://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h5319/5065319-origpic-2ca204.jpg)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on July 20, 2022, 01:09:31 AM
Regarding the 10th, I understand the recording by Barshai (of his own completion) is highly regarded.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81pVrsO9HqL._SS500_.jpg)
Mahler, Symphony No.10 - Rudolf Barshai
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on July 20, 2022, 02:11:41 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 19, 2022, 08:47:08 AM
(...) Mahler 10 (...)

Rattle/Bournemouth, Wigglesworth/BBC Magazine CD,  also Barshai/brilliant and Rattle/Berlin.

Less so Morris and Ormandy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 20, 2022, 06:02:49 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 20, 2022, 01:09:31 AM
Regarding the 10th, I understand the recording by Barshai (of his own completion) is highly regarded.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81pVrsO9HqL._SS500_.jpg)
Mahler, Symphony No.10 - Rudolf Barshai

Like others, for the 10 Adagio alone, I love Bernstein and MTT.  For the completion, I like Barshai too and also Slatkin/St. Louis which is the rarely performed Remo Mazzetti, Jr. completion.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81hDNlOHjWL._SS500_.jpg)

None of these have major changes from Cooke III.  The basis of the different versions is it's not always clear what was intended, and some interpreters make different judgements.  I've frequently posted about this throughout this thread because I believe the full No. 10 should be canon.  But to summarize:

1. Mahler first wrote sketches.  These can be thought of as general ideas, some pan out, some go nowhere, some are developed and worked into...
2. Short score: the music is crafted mostly sequentially and can be considered composed here but not fully orchestrated except that he might include instrumentational details here.
3. Full manuscript: this is the completed orchestral work which includes the first movement in its entirety and most of the scherzo.  There is also 1/3 of Purgatory.  So roughly 1/3 of the work exists completed in Mahler's manuscript where the rest of it is in short score and in some places with instrumental details. 

The challenge is, of what remains, sometimes the sketches are more flushed out than the short score though the short score came later.  This requires some judgement - was Mahler abandoning earlier ideas or just using the short score as a bit of a place holder since he knew where he was going.  Cooke III might rely on the short score, but Barshai might rely more on the sketches for some of those details.  In some cases, those introduce harmonic changes.  All of the music is still 100% Mahler.  I also believe, had Mahler lived to complete the manuscript wouldn't have solved these issues as he's known to have flip flopped himself and frequently second guessed his own ideas throughout his life.  His symphonies are still regularly updated as we find new updates based on contemporary parts having instructions that he must have made that haven't made their way back in the scores.  For example, Symphony No. 4 just got a new critical edition in...2022!!!!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Q9V1xSM6A.  I'll grant it would be authoritative if we knew his ideas when he died but he likely would have kept tweaking it for years had he lived so we never would know his final thoughts on how he wanted it either.  So, I land on it is us who benefit from hearing where he was heading with this work by hearing an approximation of it as it's quite different from just hearing the Adagio alone and incredibly beautiful completion though he almost certainly would have kept tweaking it for years had he lived.

The details of the instrumentation in the sketches are fairly clear, sometimes missing dynamics, sometimes missing doublings, and this is where some liberties are taken but I would say never straying that far from Mahler's late style.  Some are more successful than others.  Cooke III is probably the most reasonable guess, and they did a tremendous number of analyses even showing their completion side by side with Mahler's original and all of this is available online.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 20, 2022, 06:11:23 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 19, 2022, 01:52:12 PM
Von Karajan's is also my favorite, and l turn to Haitink when l want a change.

I've heard a few others including Kleiber's, but l must say none of them impressed me much.

( Corrected an error in punctuation - LKB )

I listened to Haitink's recording for the first time yesterday, and although the Karajan is still my favourite, I agree it's absolutely stunning, such a very powerful, beautifully intense performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 20, 2022, 06:47:04 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on July 20, 2022, 06:11:23 AM
I listened to Haitink's recording for the first time yesterday, and although the Karajan still my favourite, I agree it's absolutely stunning, such a very powerful, beautifully intense performance.

Indeed. While James King was more than adequate for Haitink & company, Janet Baker was, for me, incomparable in Mahler. I would have paid nearly anything to hear her perform it in concert...


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 20, 2022, 07:43:59 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 20, 2022, 06:02:49 AM
Like others, for the 10 Adagio alone, I love Bernstein and MTT.  For the completion, I like Barshai too and also Slatkin/St. Louis which is the rarely performed Remo Mazzetti, Jr. completion.

None of these have major changes from Cooke III.  The basis of the different versions is it's not always clear what was intended, and some interpreters make different judgements.  I've frequently posted about this throughout this thread because I believe the full No. 10 should be canon.  But to summarize:

1. Mahler first wrote sketches.  These can be thought of as general ideas, some pan out, some go nowhere, some are developed and worked into...
2. Short score: the music is crafted mostly sequentially and can be considered composed here but not fully orchestrated except that he might include instrumentational details here.
3. Full manuscript: this is the completed orchestral work which includes the first movement in its entirety and most of the scherzo.  There is also 1/3 of Purgatory.  So roughly 1/3 of the work exists completed in Mahler's manuscript where the rest of it is in short score and in some places with instrumental details. 

The challenge is, of what remains, sometimes the sketches are more flushed out than the short score though the short score came later.  This requires some judgement - was Mahler abandoning earlier ideas or just using the short score as a bit of a place holder since he knew where he was going.  Cooke III might rely on the short score, but Barshai might rely more on the sketches for some of those details.  In some cases, those introduce harmonic changes.  All of the music is still 100% Mahler.  I also believe, had Mahler lived to complete the manuscript wouldn't have solved these issues as he's known to have flip flopped himself and frequently second guessed his own ideas throughout his life.  His symphonies are still regularly updated as we find new updates based on contemporary parts having instructions that he must have made that haven't made their way back in the scores.  For example, Symphony No. 4 just got a new critical edition in...2022!!!!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Q9V1xSM6A.  I'll grant it would be authoritative if we knew his ideas when he died but he likely would have kept tweaking it for years had he lived so we never would know his final thoughts on how he wanted it either.  So, I land on it is us who benefit from hearing where he was heading with this work by hearing an approximation of it as it's quite different from just hearing the Adagio alone and incredibly beautiful completion though he almost certainly would have kept tweaking it for years had he lived.

The details of the instrumentation in the sketches are fairly clear, sometimes missing dynamics, sometimes missing doublings, and this is where some liberties are taken but I would say never straying that far from Mahler's late style.  Some are more successful than others.  Cooke III is probably the most reasonable guess, and they did a tremendous number of analyses even showing their completion side by side with Mahler's original and all of this is available online.

The only place I'll disagree with you is calling the 10th canon - and that only because we do not have even a preliminary full manuscript. But yes, what you say agrees with my understanding, that UNlike the case of Bruckner's 9th, Mahler's 10th was fully composed, at least in an initial form, at the time of his death. The main problem is ambiguities due to inconsistencies between the sketches and the short score; otherwise, guesswork is only needed in places for the instrumentation and registration. I have never heard Cooke II, but there were numerous changes of instrumentation between Cooke I and III, especially in the 4th and 5th movements.

And I agree with Cooke that the 10th decisively refutes the idea that Mahler in the 9th was bidding life a final farewell as he (purportedly) knew he was dying. From what I've read, he knew no such thing, and in fact he didn't die of his chronic heart problem (a damaged heart valve, possibly from rheumatic fever) but of an infection that that problem made him more vulnerable to (bacterial endocarditis), that he only contracted the following winter. If Ken Russell is to be believed (and I take his Mahler with a HUGE grain of salt), the 9th was a farewell *to love*... well, maybe. But the 10th's coda is apparently a love song to Alma (attested to by Mahler's scribblings in the sketch), IMO one of the most beautiful things Mahler ever wrote, so who knows? Whatever, the 10th is worth hearing in its entirety for anyone who wants to understand where Mahler was heading in his last year, even if, as you say, we would probably never know his final thoughts on the work.

BTW, I was unaware of the new Critical Edition of the 4th... must check this out!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on July 20, 2022, 08:01:11 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 20, 2022, 06:47:04 AM
Indeed. While James King was more than adequate for Haitink & company, Janet Baker was, for me, incomparable in Mahler. I would have paid nearly anything to hear her perform it in concert...

I heard her sing DLE only once but under less than ideal conditions. It was in the Royal Festival Hall, London and I was in the seats behind the orchestra usually occupied by the choir; I have met people who love these seats but I am not one of them. It was the only seat I could get.

It was the London Philharmonic conducted by Bernard Haitink with the Czech tenor Vilem Pribyl. It was a wonderful experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 20, 2022, 06:51:08 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 20, 2022, 06:02:49 AM
Like others, for the 10 Adagio alone, I love Bernstein and MTT.  For the completion, I like Barshai too and also Slatkin/St. Louis which is the rarely performed Remo Mazzetti, Jr. completion.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81hDNlOHjWL._SS500_.jpg)

None of these have major changes from Cooke III.  The basis of the different versions is it's not always clear what was intended, and some interpreters make different judgements.  I've frequently posted about this throughout this thread because I believe the full No. 10 should be canon.  But to summarize:

1. Mahler first wrote sketches.  These can be thought of as general ideas, some pan out, some go nowhere, some are developed and worked into...
2. Short score: the music is crafted mostly sequentially and can be considered composed here but not fully orchestrated except that he might include instrumentational details here.
3. Full manuscript: this is the completed orchestral work which includes the first movement in its entirety and most of the scherzo.  There is also 1/3 of Purgatory.  So roughly 1/3 of the work exists completed in Mahler's manuscript where the rest of it is in short score and in some places with instrumental details. 

The challenge is, of what remains, sometimes the sketches are more flushed out than the short score though the short score came later.  This requires some judgement - was Mahler abandoning earlier ideas or just using the short score as a bit of a place holder since he knew where he was going.  Cooke III might rely on the short score, but Barshai might rely more on the sketches for some of those details.  In some cases, those introduce harmonic changes.  All of the music is still 100% Mahler.  I also believe, had Mahler lived to complete the manuscript wouldn't have solved these issues as he's known to have flip flopped himself and frequently second guessed his own ideas throughout his life.  His symphonies are still regularly updated as we find new updates based on contemporary parts having instructions that he must have made that haven't made their way back in the scores.  For example, Symphony No. 4 just got a new critical edition in...2022!!!!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Q9V1xSM6A.  I'll grant it would be authoritative if we knew his ideas when he died but he likely would have kept tweaking it for years had he lived so we never would know his final thoughts on how he wanted it either.  So, I land on it is us who benefit from hearing where he was heading with this work by hearing an approximation of it as it's quite different from just hearing the Adagio alone and incredibly beautiful completion though he almost certainly would have kept tweaking it for years had he lived.

The details of the instrumentation in the sketches are fairly clear, sometimes missing dynamics, sometimes missing doublings, and this is where some liberties are taken but I would say never straying that far from Mahler's late style.  Some are more successful than others.  Cooke III is probably the most reasonable guess, and they did a tremendous number of analyses even showing their completion side by side with Mahler's original and all of this is available online.

I have to voice a loud objection to the Mazzetti version. It has one significant difference: it lets the timpani go wild. Too much banging; at points it sounds like a timpani concerto got cut and pasted in to the score.

Supposedly Mahler was inspired to include a prominent drumstroke (or series of drumstrokes) by a funeral procression he saw in New York, but Mazzetti takes it far too strenuously.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 20, 2022, 07:35:38 PM
Mahler mania has swept GMG --- LOVE IT! 8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 20, 2022, 08:33:32 PM
Speaking of Mania..

One of my favorite Mahler moments is from the 3rd Symphony, and it's the transition from the third movement Scherzo into the fourth movement. The closing minutes of the third mvt cover so many moods from lyrically soft and subdued, to an intensely dark, then lifted up, to a triumphant fortissimo ending. Only to bring the listener back down to the mysterious atmosphere for the fourth mvt. And hearing the alto slide in with "O Mensch!" never fails to give me chills. 

Gives me an idea for the polling station, "Top 10 Favorite Mahler Moments"!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 20, 2022, 09:41:44 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 20, 2022, 07:35:38 PM
Mahler mania has swept GMG --- LOVE IT! 8)

+50  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:38:59 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 20, 2022, 08:33:32 PM
Gives me an idea for the polling station, "Top 10 Favorite Mahler Moments"!

https://youtu.be/YDjUWH1Ot0o (https://youtu.be/YDjUWH1Ot0o)

8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 21, 2022, 05:37:53 AM
Quote from: JBS on July 20, 2022, 06:51:08 PM
I have to voice a loud objection to the Mazzetti version. It has one significant difference: it lets the timpani go wild. Too much banging; at points it sounds like a timpani concerto got cut and pasted in to the score.

Supposedly Mahler was inspired to include a prominent drumstroke (or series of drumstrokes) by a funeral procression he saw in New York, but Mazzetti takes it far too strenuously.

Do you mean the drums at the start of the last movement?  One important point - I heard this version live with Slatkin and sometimes, the live performance is superior to a recorded version with the same forces - just a sense of occasion is lacking in the recording that was present in the performance.  So, for me, it is hard to not think of the visceral cathartic experience of that live performance when evaluating Mazzetti.  There is also another performance with Cincinatti/López-Cobos that might be more to your liking.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 21, 2022, 05:49:24 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 20, 2022, 07:43:59 AM
The only place I'll disagree with you is calling the 10th canon - and that only because we do not have even a preliminary full manuscript. But yes, what you say agrees with my understanding, that UNlike the case of Bruckner's 9th, Mahler's 10th was fully composed, at least in an initial form, at the time of his death. The main problem is ambiguities due to inconsistencies between the sketches and the short score; otherwise, guesswork is only needed in places for the instrumentation and registration. I have never heard Cooke II, but there were numerous changes of instrumentation between Cooke I and III, especially in the 4th and 5th movements.

And I agree with Cooke that the 10th decisively refutes the idea that Mahler in the 9th was bidding life a final farewell as he (purportedly) knew he was dying. From what I've read, he knew no such thing, and in fact he didn't die of his chronic heart problem (a damaged heart valve, possibly from rheumatic fever) but of an infection that that problem made him more vulnerable to (bacterial endocarditis), that he only contracted the following winter. If Ken Russell is to be believed (and I take his Mahler with a HUGE grain of salt), the 9th was a farewell *to love*... well, maybe. But the 10th's coda is apparently a love song to Alma (attested to by Mahler's scribblings in the sketch), IMO one of the most beautiful things Mahler ever wrote, so who knows? Whatever, the 10th is worth hearing in its entirety for anyone who wants to understand where Mahler was heading in his last year, even if, as you say, we would probably never know his final thoughts on the work.

BTW, I was unaware of the new Critical Edition of the 4th... must check this out!

I doubt non-scholars would notice anything different in the new critical edition of the 4th.  There was a new critical edition of the 2nd not long ago maybe in the 1990's and I couldn't hear anything different though it had maybe hundreds of fixes albeit that work has millions of notes.  Earlier changes in his symphonies are much more noticeable - are there two or three hammer blows in the 6th?  What's the 6th's Adagio order?  Blumine in No. 1?  The instrumentation changed a lot in No. 1 as well.  Was sitting next to a friend in a rehearsal of No. 1 and we both had the score.  I had Dover which was the public domain probably first edition and had lots of omissions.  He had Universal Edition which included Horn 7 and trombone 4 part which aren't in mine.  Plus, we know Mahler made lots of corrections throughout rehearsals based on the minutia of his performance indications.  Not all of these alterations make their ways back in to the full score and sometimes they are contradictory.  I think this gives a sense of his personality - he was probably manic, had ideas that he struggled to get right but it does seem subsequent versions always improved on the original.   

The reason I argue this must be in canon is if conductors only play the first Adagio, it gives a very different impression of what he was actually saying.  Especially coming off the heels of No. 9, it paints a very dark and depressive ambivalence to life and that's the complete opposite of what he was saying.  In its final pages, it ends with radiance and catharsis and a very different message - that all the suffering he endured was worth it for the love he had for Alma.  That comes through and that was completed by Mahler.   
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 21, 2022, 07:44:50 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 21, 2022, 05:37:53 AM
Do you mean the drums at the start of the last movement?  One important point - I heard this version live with Slatkin and sometimes, the live performance is superior to a recorded version with the same forces - just a sense of occasion is lacking in the recording that was present in the performance.  So, for me, it is hard to not think of the visceral cathartic experience of that live performance when evaluating Mazzetti.  There is also another performance with Cincinatti/López-Cobos that might be more to your liking.

Thanks, I'll keep it mind.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 21, 2022, 08:36:34 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:38:59 AM
https://youtu.be/YDjUWH1Ot0o (https://youtu.be/YDjUWH1Ot0o)

8)

Oh yes, one of my favorite moments. The vid reminds of a live performance I saw (Segerstam conducting the Rheinland-Pfalz).I was seated near the front and could not see past the rows of strings. But when the first hammerblow approached I saw the hammer rise above the strings then disappear with the downward slam. I saw it again of course, and then thrillingly, a third time! Segerstam had restored it. Definitely one of my most memorable concert experiences.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on July 21, 2022, 08:45:58 AM
Quote from: LKB on July 20, 2022, 09:41:44 PM
+50  :D

And there's no mania like Mahler mania, like no mania I know!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 21, 2022, 09:06:24 AM
Quote from: relm1 on July 21, 2022, 05:49:24 AM
The reason I argue this must be in canon is if conductors only play the first Adagio, it gives a very different impression of what he was actually saying.  Especially coming off the heels of No. 9, it paints a very dark and depressive ambivalence to life and that's the complete opposite of what he was saying.  In its final pages, it ends with radiance and catharsis and a very different message - that all the suffering he endured was worth it for the love he had for Alma.  That comes through and that was completed by Mahler.

Oh don't get me wrong - I'm 1000% in favor of performing the entire symphony as opposed to just the 1st mvt - and for exactly the reason you say, the 1st mvt alone gives a very slanted and inaccurate impression of what the work as a whole has to say in music. I just don't believe in calling any symphony "canon" that was not at least fully scored in preliminary form by the composer. The 10th just doesn't quite meet that standard, for me. YMMV.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 21, 2022, 11:50:45 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have strong feelings one way or the other about Simon Rattle conducting Mahler? I imagine he must have his fans. He's recorded all of the symphonies, some of them more than once, but I never hear him get much mention. I do like his 10th with Berlin, not having heard any others.

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor? I'm not sure whether or not I do. I learned the music from the Bernstein/NY/Sony recordings, and I still do love that cycle, but it's not quite what I want to hear in Mahler's music these days, I think. Anyway, it seems most here share the oft-repeated opinion that no one gets everything right.

P.S. I'm also curious whether anyone likes Seiji Ozawa's Mahler performances. I really enjoyed the little I heard when I was exploring his recordings earlier.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 21, 2022, 12:43:41 PM
My favorite Mahler Conductors are probably Haitink (the early RCO cycle) and Neumann. Maazel and Chailly are also up there. There are some non-cycle performances which I find extremely compelling, Barbirolli fifth, Karajan ninth and sixth (analog). Admittedly I've not listened through as many Mahler symphony cycles as some here.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 21, 2022, 12:53:41 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2022, 11:50:45 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have strong feelings one way or the other about Simon Rattle conducting Mahler? I imagine he must have his fans. He's recorded all of the symphonies, some of them more than once, but I never hear him get much mention. I do like his 10th with Berlin, not having heard any others.

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor? I'm not sure whether or not I do. I learned the music from the Bernstein/NY/Sony recordings, and I still do love that cycle, but it's not quite what I want to hear in Mahler's music these days, I think. Anyway, it seems most here share the oft-repeated opinion that no one gets everything right.

I never cared much for Rattle's Mahler --- any of it. The interpretations whether in Birmingham or Berlin strike me as lacking nuance and just flat-out dull. Bernstein, Tennstedt, Haitink, Klemper and Chailly remain my favorite Mahlerians. I also like Kubelik and Neumann, but to a much lesser degree than the afore mentioned favorites.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 21, 2022, 12:59:58 PM
My favourite Mahler conductors are Bernstein, Solti and Karajan (although he never recorded a complete symphonies cycle, such a great pity); especially about Bernstein, I think he felt that music like no one else, his recordings are very striking and powerfully mesmerizing. Absolutely honorable mentions are also Chailly, Tennstedt and Haitink (the latter for Das Lied von der Erde).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 21, 2022, 01:06:53 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2022, 11:50:45 AM

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor?

As a complete cycle, Chailly. I find only his Second disappointing. Maazel in second place. Boulez third. Bernstein fourth (equally divided between his Sony and DG cycles).

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 21, 2022, 01:13:48 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 21, 2022, 01:06:53 PM
As a complete cycle, Chailly. I find only his Second disappointing. Maazel in second place. Boulez third. Bernstein fourth (equally divided between his Sony and DG cycles).

Sarge

Which Maazel cycle, Sarge? Wiener or Philharmonia?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 21, 2022, 01:18:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 21, 2022, 01:13:48 PM
Which Maazel cycle, Sarge? Wiener or Philharmonia?

Vienna. I keep forgetting that he recorded more than one cycle.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: VonStupp on July 21, 2022, 01:33:44 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2022, 11:50:45 AM
Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor? I'm not sure whether or not I do. I learned the music from the Bernstein/NY/Sony recordings, and I still do love that cycle, but it's not quite what I want to hear in Mahler's music these days, I think. Anyway, it seems most here share the oft-repeated opinion that no one gets everything right.

I enjoy James Levine in Mahler quite a bit, although his cycle has its oddities - Levine never got around to the 2nd and 8th, and he uses the Chicago SO, London SO, and The Philadelphia Orchestra across his cycle. Neither of these two aspects bother me at all, though.  :)

VS
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 21, 2022, 02:09:23 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 17, 2022, 11:37:05 PM
DO make a disc copy of your Horenstein set as soon as you can or at very least rip a WAV/lossless digital file.  Thos bronzed discs WILL fail or at least start skipping etc and probably fairly soon........

Good point, I have it ripped, I just tried it again and it sailed through dbpoweramp secure mode in under a few minutes. I was under the impression that once these started to bronze by this point they would either play or not; ie any deterioration has ceased by now. I also think different factories were affected more, bronzed PDO UK is one I almost never have any success with (mostly Pearl CDs).

Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2022, 11:50:45 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have strong feelings one way or the other about Simon Rattle conducting Mahler?

I saw him conduct the 8th and it is up there with the greatest concerts I've ever seen. I am not as keen on his recordings, I have the new one on the Berlin Phil's label in my to hear list.

Quote
Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor?

Horenstein, Barbirolli, Bernstein. If forced to pick one then I guess Barbirolli as I like all the EMI and most of the BBC recordings. He was even one of the earliest that performed the 6th as Andante-Scherzo (not my preference though lol), which in my mind puts him as a bit of a visionary.

Edit I have to include Klemperer and Karajan as well. Once you look past some conductor's less than truly top tier performances, there are many, many incredible Mahler conductors.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 21, 2022, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 21, 2022, 01:18:56 PM
Vienna. I keep forgetting that he recorded more than one cycle.

Sarge

Don't worry I'm the same way with his Sibelius. For me, there's only his cycle Wiener. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 21, 2022, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 21, 2022, 12:53:41 PM
I never cared much for Rattle's Mahler --- any of it. The interpretations whether in Birmingham or Berlin strike me as lacking nuance and just flat-out dull. Bernstein, Tennstedt, Haitink, Klemper and Chailly remain my favorite Mahlerians. I also like Kubelik and Neumann, but to a much lesser degree than the afore mentioned favorites.

Rattle is a case in point for me where his concert performances are superior to his recordings.  Same with Dudamel.  They are generally electric live and come across as safe in recording.  They're clearly perfectionists and start to lose some of that "edge of your seat" feel you get in a live performance when they go for perfection.  Sometimes the most musical performance might not be note perfect - people who love vintage recordings know this.  Some of the greatest recordings have lots of errors but are more of an electrifying "musical performance".  Generally speaking, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Bernstein, etc. are reliably fine and might have mistakes in the recordings. 

Some might find this story interesting from film music world where during a recording, a stage noise such as a mute was dropped, and the performer called out "well that's a take" while the conductor was still conducting.  In that case, the performer was fired because NO ONE calls a take but the composer/conductor because they are looking for a performance not a take.  Sometimes the one with the stage noise or missed entrance is in fact the best performance that they select.  If a conductor and producer are looking bar by bar for perfection, they can find it but they might miss out on the best overall musical experience which could include a flaw they deem acceptable.  At best, the conductors bring something unique...something special to the work.  To me, Bernstein, Walter, Tennstedt, Klemper do.  Chailly not as much.  He doesn't rise to the very greats but I'm quite picky.  I would put Chailly in the same place as Rattle...accomplished but doesn't knock off the top tier the completion is just so damn high.  For some reason, I prefer 1980's Rattle to 2010's Rattle.  Similarly, I generally prefer 1960's Bernstein to 1980's audio quality notwithstanding. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:02:21 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2022, 11:50:45 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have strong feelings one way or the other about Simon Rattle conducting Mahler? I imagine he must have his fans. He's recorded all of the symphonies, some of them more than once, but I never hear him get much mention. I do like his 10th with Berlin, not having heard any others.

Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor? I'm not sure whether or not I do. I learned the music from the Bernstein/NY/Sony recordings, and I still do love that cycle, but it's not quite what I want to hear in Mahler's music these days, I think. Anyway, it seems most here share the oft-repeated opinion that no one gets everything right.

P.S. I'm also curious whether anyone likes Seiji Ozawa's Mahler performances. I really enjoyed the little I heard when I was exploring his recordings earlier.

Rattle: I think that he is fine.  Others make it out like he is terrible, but his real crime is not being special.  I still have fond memories of blasting his Birmingham M10 on my walkman.
Favorite: I have no single favorite conductor.  I don't think there is anyone that absolutely nails each symphony beyond everyone else.  The field is just too crowded.
Ozawa: has one of the greatest Mahler 2's on record!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 21, 2022, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:02:21 PM
Ozawa: has one of the greatest Mahler 2's on record!

Is this the one with Saito Kinen Orchestra or BSO? I bought the former last year, but I have to really be in the mood to hear the second symphony, and haven't got to it yet.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: classicalgeek on July 21, 2022, 04:20:32 PM
Quote from: VonStupp on July 21, 2022, 01:33:44 PM
I enjoy James Levine in Mahler quite a bit, although his cycle has its oddities - Levine never got around to the 2nd and 8th, and he uses the Chicago SO, London SO, and The Philadelphia Orchestra across his cycle. Neither of these two aspects bother me at all, though.  :)

VS

I've enjoyed Levine quite a bit in Mahler too - my favorites are the recordings with Chicago (numbers 3, 4, and 7, I believe.)

Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2022, 11:50:45 AM
Open ended question: do you have an overall favorite Mahler conductor?


I've got to go with Bernstein; I love both of his cycles, though I'm more familiar with the DG one. I also really enjoy Gary Bertini for his overall consistency - there's not a weak one in his set. And of course there are individual performances I love: Slatkin and St. Louis in #2 on Telarc. Karajan's live #9 with Berlin. And of course Barbirolli (with the incomparable Janet Baker) in the song cycles.

Quote from: vers la flamme on July 21, 2022, 11:50:45 AM
I'm also curious whether anyone likes Seiji Ozawa's Mahler performances. I really enjoyed the little I heard when I was exploring his recordings earlier.


I haven't listened to them all, but I imprinted on Ozawa's #1 and #4 with Boston, and I remember enjoying them quite a bit. I've heard good things about his #2 and #9 with Saito-Kinen, although I haven't heard either.

Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:02:21 PM
Rattle: I think that he is fine.  Others make it out like he is terrible, but his real crime is not being special.  I still have fond memories of blasting his Birmingham M10 on my walkman.
Favorite: I have no single favorite conductor.  I don't think there is anyone that absolutely nails each symphony beyond everyone else.  The field is just too crowded.
Ozawa: has one of the greatest Mahler 2's on record!

Just curious, David - are you referring to his Boston recording, or his Saito-Kinen one? (edit: I see hvbias has already asked!  ;D)

I'm ambivalent on Rattle's Mahler, with the exception of that Cooke-completed 10th he recorded with Bournemouth early on. That one I really like!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:21:22 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 21, 2022, 04:18:36 PM
Is this the one with Saito Kinen Orchestra or BSO? I bought the former last year, but I have to really be in the mood to hear the second symphony, and haven't got to it yet.

The former.  I just learned about the latter five minutes ago when I read the other read.  I guess I have more Mahler to listen to. $:)

And the Haitink Christmas set is on the way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:22:54 PM
Quote from: classicalgeek on July 21, 2022, 04:20:32 PM
I'm ambivalent on Rattle's Mahler, with the exception of that Cooke-completed 10th he recorded with Bournemouth early on. That one I really like!

Oh Bournemouth!  I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:26:22 PM
Quote from: classicalgeek on July 21, 2022, 04:20:32 PM
I'm ambivalent on Rattle's Mahler, with the exception of that Cooke-completed 10th he recorded with Bournemouth early on. That one I really like!

I wonder if part of the problem is the legendary Tony Duggan survey.  He heavily promoted Rattle's recordings as some of the top and none of them even belonged in the company for any of the symphonies.  And for a long time that was the reference online for digging into Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: classicalgeek on July 21, 2022, 04:29:57 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:22:54 PM
Oh Bournemouth!  I stand corrected.

It appears this is the only recording he made with the Bournemouth Symphony, oddly enough! Whereas he made dozens with the City of Birmingham, which was of course "his" orchestra.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 21, 2022, 04:52:53 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 21, 2022, 03:53:19 PM
Rattle is a case in point for me where his concert performances are superior to his recordings.  Same with Dudamel.  They are generally electric live and come across as safe in recording.  They're clearly perfectionists and start to lose some of that "edge of your seat" feel you get in a live performance when they go for perfection.  Sometimes the most musical performance might not be note perfect - people who love vintage recordings know this.  Some of the greatest recordings have lots of errors but are more of an electrifying "musical performance".  Generally speaking, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Bernstein, etc. are reliably fine and might have mistakes in the recordings. 

Some might find this story interesting from film music world where during a recording, a stage noise such as a mute was dropped, and the performer called out "well that's a take" while the conductor was still conducting.  In that case, the performer was fired because NO ONE calls a take but the composer/conductor because they are looking for a performance not a take.  Sometimes the one with the stage noise or missed entrance is in fact the best performance that they select.  If a conductor and producer are looking bar by bar for perfection, they can find it but they might miss out on the best overall musical experience which could include a flaw they deem acceptable.  At best, the conductors bring something unique...something special to the work.  To me, Bernstein, Walter, Tennstedt, Klemper do.  Chailly not as much.  He doesn't rise to the very greats but I'm quite picky.  I would put Chailly in the same place as Rattle...accomplished but doesn't knock off the top tier the completion is just so damn high.  For some reason, I prefer 1980's Rattle to 2010's Rattle.  Similarly, I generally prefer 1960's Bernstein to 1980's audio quality notwithstanding.

Very good post and much to agree with! Several of the miscreants I named in my prior post would fit in with what you described as performances I really love :laugh:

I have been meaning to revisit Chailly's cycle for some time because I have read nothing but praise for it (see every post on this page as well), I thought to just keep my mouth shut on it since my initial opinion on it must have been very wrong. Boulez's Mahler is another that comes to mind.

"Doesn't rise to the very greats" - that is pretty much what I am looking for these days, and it's not unattainable given the huge number of recordings available to us often in sound just as good as Chailly's cycle (Iván Fischer, Bychkov in 3, Tilson Thomas in the earlier recording of the seventh, Neumann's Exton cycle, Thierry Fischer in 8, etc)

I think Rattle is an easy punching bag because he comes off as smug, namely that back handed compliment to Karajan is one that stands out. Not that I'm saying his Mahler recordings are anything special, but it's easy to be extra hard on him for this.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on July 21, 2022, 10:46:14 PM
Perhaps Rattle is his own worst enemy, in the sense that he's so much there, people get tired. Also he's not a real joy to watch conducting, with his grimacing.
However, I watched a Mahler 10 Adagio last night, Rattle / LSO and it was good. I went to YNS and the Rotterdam for sloppy seconds and YNS is just a conductor I have never understood. So incredibly fussy and jumpy.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 21, 2022, 10:54:38 PM
Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2022, 04:02:21 PM
Rattle: I think that he is fine.  Others make it out like he is terrible, but his real crime is not being special.  I still have fond memories of blasting his Birmingham M10 on my walkman.
Favorite: I have no single favorite conductor.  I don't think there is anyone that absolutely nails each symphony beyond everyone else.  The field is just too crowded.
Ozawa: has one of the greatest Mahler 2's on record!

Bournemouth M10?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 22, 2022, 03:15:48 AM
Another open ended question: Do you all like Das klagende Lied? I have to admit it never did much for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on July 22, 2022, 03:56:30 AM
I think it is a strange but interesting and highly original piece that clearly shows Mahler didn't need Rott or anyone else to show him his way. I like it but I never bothered to sort out the different versions and rarely listen to it. I have Boulez/Sony with a hybrid version that seems by now to be considered philologically unsound and not/rarely performed, then Haitink with the two-part and Nagano/Teldec with what I take to be the philologically correct 3 part version.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 22, 2022, 04:10:08 AM
I haven't heard it in years. There's some striking imagery in the text, but only the very end made much of an impression. It's the only significant work of Mahler's I've ever felt decidedly " meh " about. But then, he was still developing.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 22, 2022, 04:30:02 AM
I haven't heard Das Klagende Lied in decades, literally. I used to have an old LP album that included the original first movement that Mahler discarded (I think it was called Waldmärchen), I forget who the conductor was now. I always thought the most interesting thing about the work was how so many of the ideas in it turn up in his later works, especially in the 1st Symphony and in Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on July 22, 2022, 04:39:31 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2022, 10:44:49 AM

There are Timex ads strewn through the Laugh-In pilot ... their luxury watch was priced then at $15.95.].



"It takes a licking but keeps on ticking!"   :D


Concerning Mahler's  Symphony #10:

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2022, 10:44:49 AM

One of these days, I should listen to the entire Tenth.


We welcome all to the Tenth Symphony at whatever time!

One will notice that Mahler continues in the vein of the Ninth Symphony: those who complain that the Tenth seems "sparse," and blame that on the lack of a complete Urfassung, have perhaps not examined the Ninth Symphony carefully enough.

To be sure, not every "sparse" page or section was meant to be that way.  However, it is possible that an unadorned line is what the composer intended, rf. the opening of the work!

Also dann, guten Appetit!


Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 22, 2022, 04:52:49 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 22, 2022, 03:15:48 AM
Another open ended question: Do you all like Das klagende Lied? I have to admit it never did much for me.

I rarely listen to it, but I find it a very appreciable piece because of the similarities with the Mahler of the first symphonies; I especially like the dense, colurful orchestration and the combination of light and dark tones given by the continuous alterations of the orchestral dynamics, that creates fine contrasting effects between light and shadow. And as bonus point, the choirs remind me of the Wagner of Tannhäuser and Lohengrin.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Biffo on July 22, 2022, 05:05:58 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 22, 2022, 04:30:02 AM
I haven't heard Das Klagende Lied in decades, literally. I used to have an old LP album that included the original first movement that Mahler discarded (I think it was called Waldmärchen), I forget who the conductor was now. I always thought the most interesting thing about the work was how so many of the ideas in it turn up in his later works, especially in the 1st Symphony and in Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen.

The first recording of Waldmärchen was made by Pierre Boulez with the LSO, it was coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. Boulez had already recorded the two-part Das klagende Lied, the version Mahler intended to be heard. Later, CBS bolted the two albums together as Das klagende Lied. Several other record companies later did the same. Kent Nagano was the first to record the original three-part work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 22, 2022, 06:03:50 AM
Quote from: Biffo on July 22, 2022, 05:05:58 AM
The first recording of Waldmärchen was made by Pierre Boulez with the LSO, it was coupled with the Adagio from Symphony No 10. Boulez had already recorded the two-part Das klagende Lied, the version Mahler intended to be heard. Later, CBS bolted the two albums together as Das klagende Lied. Several other record companies later did the same. Kent Nagano was the first to record the original three-part work.

I almost wrote that I thought it might have been Boulez, but then balked as I was unsure. In light of your new information, I'll state with confidence that it was Boulez; and yes, it was coupled with the Adagio from #10.

I remember being struck at the time by the thematic ties with later works, but also (being a Tolkien fan at the time) by the parallel between the tale of fratricide in Waldmärchen and the story of the hobbits Smeagol and Deagol, another "legend" where one brother kills another out of jealousy for something of great beauty. It's a pretty common theme in literature so perhaps it's coincidence; but then maybe not, as Tolkien was famously familiar with Germanic folk legends and would certainly have known the Grimm brothers story on which Waldmärchen was based.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 22, 2022, 03:02:51 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 21, 2022, 04:18:36 PM
Is this the one with Saito Kinen Orchestra or BSO? I bought the former last year, but I have to really be in the mood to hear the second symphony, and haven't got to it yet.

Now I can say definitely the former.  I listened to the latter (BSO) and overall it was good but it has weak moments where it should not.  I posted on the listening thread.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on July 22, 2022, 03:03:16 PM
I received that Haitink set today, what fast shipping!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on July 23, 2022, 02:58:47 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 22, 2022, 03:15:48 AM
Another open ended question: Do you all like Das klagende Lied? I have to admit it never did much for me.

Sort of.

I have the Chailly disc which combines the original Part 1 with the revised Parts 2 and 3.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71KfF+K5QrL._SX425_.jpg)

And more than anything, knowing the history of the piece, it's pretty clear why Mahler omitted the first part. So much of the narrative of Part 1 gets repeated in Part 2 that it makes the piece a lot less interesting. Mahler isn't exactly known for his concision, but in this case he worked out that he'd overdone things. It's not that the first Part is bad music, it's just that the cumulative effect is to make the work drag.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 23, 2022, 04:52:01 AM
Quote from: DavidW on July 22, 2022, 03:02:51 PM
Now I can say definitely the former.  I listened to the latter (BSO) and overall it was good but it has weak moments where it should not.  I posted on the listening thread.

I listened to Saito Kinen last night after seeing your post. On headphones so I couldn't get the full power and emotional impact of the music, I was still able to appreciate this was a fine performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 23, 2022, 08:03:18 AM
Cross posting from WAYL2:

Quote from: vers la flamme on July 23, 2022, 07:46:31 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzRV38SH/image.png)

Gustav Mahler: Symphony No.5 in C-sharp minor. Sir John Barbirolli, New Philharmonia Orchestra

Awesome recording of one of my favorite Mahler symphonies. (Though I guess my favorite Mahler symphony is whichever I happen to be listening to at the time ;D)

When I was first getting into Mahler, I used to frequent another classical music forum which shall not be named, and everyone there went completely gaga over Barbirolli's Mahler. Nowadays I never hear anyone talk about it. Do Sir John's Mahler recordings have their fans here on GMG? I haven't heard much, but I kind of like it. This one gives me a very "dark Romantic" kind of feeling, very intense, almost grotesque, like the kind of music you might read Edgar Allan Poe or Mary Shelley to. But it's a VERY solid conception of the work; everything flows, every note perfectly succeeds what came before. The funeral march really does sound like a funeral march here, which is something I can't say about some of the other recordings I love (i.e. Boulez/Vienna, Karajan/Berlin).

Very happy to be revisiting this performance right now!

Thoughts on JB's Mahler? The Warner budget box with symphonies 1, 5, 6 & 9 (plus the Lieder with Baker) can be had for REALLY cheap right now, and it's tempting.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 23, 2022, 09:34:33 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 23, 2022, 08:03:18 AM
Thoughts on JB's Mahler? The Warner budget box with symphonies 1, 5, 6 & 9 (plus the Lieder with Baker) can be had for REALLY cheap right now, and it's tempting.

It's a strange thing, but I've never warmed to Barbirolli's famous 5th. Maybe I just didn't listen to the right issue or mastering or whatever, but I remember it struck me as sluggish.

The reason it's strange is because I like all other JB Mahler. The 6th, with its slow tempi and monumental feel, is a fine example of a "great wrongheaded" recording (i.e. one that sounds eccentric and shouldn't work, but does). I also come back to the BPO 9th a lot, it's sort of in the other direction - lighter and faster and more like a traditional romantic symphony, granted the playing is a bit awkward at times but there's a lot of "soul" in it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 23, 2022, 01:02:27 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 23, 2022, 09:34:33 AM
The 6th, with its slow tempi and monumental feel, is a fine example of a "great wrongheaded" recording (i.e. one that sounds eccentric and shouldn't work, but does). I also come back to the BPO 9th a lot, it's sort of in the other direction - lighter and faster and more like a traditional romantic symphony, granted the playing is a bit awkward at times but there's a lot of "soul" in it.

What do you make of him conducting it Andante-Scherzo? That overall dark, grim conception combined with placing the Scherzo before the final movement adds to just how bleak it is. I actually rearrange to Scherzo-Andante when I listen to it, but that sort of throws off the balance a bit with his first movement. I suppose I should go back to hearing it as he and Mahler preferred it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 23, 2022, 01:19:57 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 23, 2022, 01:02:27 PM
What do you make of him conducting it Andante-Scherzo? That overall dark, grim conception combined with placing the Scherzo before the final movement adds to just how bleak it is. I actually rearrange to Scherzo-Andante when I listen to it, but that sort of throws off the balance a bit with his first movement. I suppose I should go back to hearing it as he and Mahler preferred it.

I've always preferred Scherzo-Andante. I like that big island of contrasting slow music before the very long finale starts. Did Mahler ever fully make up his mind on the correct order?

The great thing about a recording is that I can listen to the mvts. in any order I want.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 23, 2022, 01:25:48 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 23, 2022, 01:19:57 PM
I've always preferred Scherzo-Andante. I like that big island of contrasting slow music before the very long finale starts. Did Mahler ever fully make up his mind on the correct order?

The great thing about a recording is that I can listen to the mvts. in any order I want.

Research points to it pretty much unequivocally being Andante-Scherzo, what Mahler signed off on his final transcript. Some confusion with Mengelberg, consulting Alma, and a rogue publisher changing the order back to the first edition shouldn't be the definitive version IMO.

Having said that I prefer S-A as well lol, the balance with the lighter Andante sounds more right before the finale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on July 23, 2022, 05:48:35 PM
I prefer Scherzo-Andante as well, mostly because of the key relationships: the Andante ends in E-flat, the Finale begins as if in C Minor (the relative minor), and when A major-minor bursts in it is like a blast from another world, since last we heard that key was several minutes earlier. That effect is completely lost if the A minor Scherzo directly precedes the Finale.

But I agree that research by Gilbert Kaplan and others has proven beyond any doubt that Mahler never changed his mind again, or at least that if he did, he never made his wishes publicly known. Could he have communicated a change of intentions to Alma (who then conveyed it to Mengelberg)? Possible, but doubtful, since unless this last change happened in 2010 (when he and Alma were not exactly close), then he would have had plenty of time to convey his wishes to his publisher.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 23, 2022, 06:56:37 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 23, 2022, 08:03:18 AM
Cross posting from WAYL2:

Thoughts on JB's Mahler? The Warner budget box with symphonies 1, 5, 6 & 9 (plus the Lieder with Baker) can be had for REALLY cheap right now, and it's tempting.

I urge you to give into temptation. I'vd always liked them. [Tangentially, the budget Sibelius set is also worth getting.]
In fact, I'm gearing up to order some Barbirolli Society CDs of Mahler (among others) he didn't record for HMV/Pye--Symphonies 2 and 7, and an alternate performance of Symphony 1 (Czech Philharmonic).

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 23, 2022, 07:48:16 PM
Quote from: hvbias on July 23, 2022, 01:25:48 PM
Research points to it pretty much unequivocally being Andante-Scherzo, what Mahler signed off on his final transcript. Some confusion with Mengelberg, consulting Alma, and a rogue publisher changing the order back to the first edition shouldn't be the definitive version IMO.

Having said that I prefer S-A as well lol, the balance with the lighter Andante sounds more right before the finale.

My preference is for A-S. The scherzo seems like a continuation of the mood of the first movement. I find it more convincing for the andante to break the mood of the first movement, then have it return before the summation of the finale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 25, 2022, 02:57:57 AM
I'm not usually the biggest fan in the world of Lorin Maazel's conducting but his Mahler 4th with the VPO is just stellar. Must be one of the best I've ever heard. Are any of the other recordings in his cycle this good?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 28, 2022, 08:54:09 AM
The Chailly/RSO Berlin 10th sounds really good. Any fans?

(https://i.postimg.cc/KzzJ2RgS/mahler10chailly.jpg)

Are any of the non-Cooke completions worth checking out?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on July 28, 2022, 09:14:29 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 28, 2022, 08:54:09 AM
The Chailly/RSO Berlin 10th sounds really good. Any fans?

(https://i.postimg.cc/KzzJ2RgS/mahler10chailly.jpg)

Are any of the non-Cooke completions worth checking out?

Oh hell, yes!

*cough cough* I mean, yes.  ;D

(And sorry, can't weigh in on the non-Cooke query; I've only heard that version.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 28, 2022, 09:29:11 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 28, 2022, 08:54:09 AM
The Chailly/RSO Berlin 10th sounds really good. Any fans?

(https://i.postimg.cc/KzzJ2RgS/mahler10chailly.jpg)

Are any of the non-Cooke completions worth checking out?

Sure, definitely! As for Chailly's Mahler in general.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on July 28, 2022, 09:53:57 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 28, 2022, 08:54:09 AM
The Chailly/RSO Berlin 10th sounds really good. Any fans?

It's my favourite version by far.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 28, 2022, 10:01:27 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 25, 2022, 02:57:57 AM
I'm not usually the biggest fan in the world of Lorin Maazel's conducting but his Mahler 4th with the VPO is just stellar. Must be one of the best I've ever heard. Are any of the other recordings in his cycle this good?

I've made the comment somewhere around here, but No 2 is remarkable (the original release was my first Mahler CD). I think the cycle is generally outstanding (although I have not listened all of it yet). But then, I'm a big fan of Maazel.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on July 29, 2022, 08:15:50 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 25, 2022, 02:57:57 AM
I'm not usually the biggest fan in the world of Lorin Maazel's conducting but his Mahler 4th with the VPO is just stellar. Must be one of the best I've ever heard. Are any of the other recordings in his cycle this good?

That 4th is one of the very best. VLF how about getting Bruckner mania going, I'm having a hard time breaking through with the first three symphonies in this new cycle, and my brain won't allow me to hear it out of order and jump to my favorites  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on July 29, 2022, 08:24:00 AM
" Bruckner mania "... < ears perk up >
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 30, 2022, 05:14:57 AM
Quote from: hvbias on July 29, 2022, 08:15:50 AM
That 4th is one of the very best. VLF how about getting Bruckner mania going, I'm having a hard time breaking through with the first three symphonies in this new cycle, and my brain won't allow me to hear it out of order and jump to my favorites  ;D

Check the what are you listening 2 thread  ;D

Still more in a Mahlerian mood but it's good to get back to a bit of Bruckner.

Remind me, though what cycle are you listening to?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on July 30, 2022, 06:35:12 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 22, 2022, 03:15:48 AM
Another open ended question: Do you all like Das klagende Lied? I have to admit it never did much for me.

Das klagende Lied is an alright piece --- it's certainly not a work I listen to with any frequency. The first, and, for me, best recording of the work is Boulez's on Columbia (Sony), but I also enjoyed Chailly and Nagano. There's something about this work that does feel incomplete to me and I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that it's earlier work and lacks a certain confidence that he would no doubt exhibit later. Still, there are some nice sections, but I find it to be rather unmemorable overall.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on July 30, 2022, 01:07:36 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 22, 2022, 03:15:48 AM
Another open ended question: Do you all like Das klagende Lied? I have to admit it never did much for me.

I don't dislike it, if that answers your question. And if I had the choice to book tickets for a concert of either Das klagende Lied or almost anything else, I'd probably book almost anything else.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 30, 2022, 01:25:05 PM
Yeah I'm not crazy about DKL; but I suppose I owe it another chance.

Wow, the MTT/LSO 7th is such a killer performance. Really, really enjoying it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on July 30, 2022, 01:36:34 PM
I must admit I don't hold Das klagende Lied in high regard. Of course there are some interesting passages, and glimpses of the mature Mahler to come, but taken as a whole it strikes me like an adolescent attempt to "out-Wagner" Wagner. "Ach, Spielmann, lieber Spielmann mein"  ::)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 30, 2022, 01:58:56 PM
I know Antoni Wit's recording of Mahler's 8th has quite a few fans here. I wanted to ask if any of his other Mahler recordings are of the same stature? How is his 2nd?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 01, 2022, 04:30:03 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 30, 2022, 01:58:56 PM
I know Antoni Wit's recording of Mahler's 8th has quite a few fans here. I wanted to ask if any of his other Mahler recordings are of the same stature? How is his 2nd?

Wit's Resurrection has many of the same virtues as his "Symphony of a Thousand".  Very well played and sung - I don't think any choirs beat German/Eastern European groups for the sheer focus and power of their singing.  The soloists are good but not anyhting more than that. The engineering is remarkably successful too.  Wit is a centre-ground Mahlerian - nothing to take offense at but not really much to get you reaching for the stars either.  But given you can find this on Amazon UK for just £1.24 + p&p it is certainly well worth that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on August 04, 2022, 11:05:35 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 28, 2022, 08:54:09 AM
The Chailly/RSO Berlin 10th sounds really good. Any fans?

(https://i.postimg.cc/KzzJ2RgS/mahler10chailly.jpg)

Are any of the non-Cooke completions worth checking out?
My favourite 10th by a long way, though I've not heard too many. Chailly doesn't try to milk the emotion in it, and the tenderness of the flute/strings passage in the finale--surely the emotional core of the work--is exactly what it needs, IMO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on August 04, 2022, 11:11:33 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 23, 2022, 08:03:18 AM
Cross posting from WAYL2:

Thoughts on JB's Mahler? The Warner budget box with symphonies 1, 5, 6 & 9 (plus the Lieder with Baker) can be had for REALLY cheap right now, and it's tempting.
If you've not bought it yet, I encourage you to. IMO the 9th is one of the finest on record (I probably prefer Ančerl, but only by a touch), and the 5th and 6th are excellent (though more controversial). And perhaps it's just me, but I think the Lieder disc with Baker is literally one of the finest recordings ever made--not just of Mahler, but of anything.

There's also a number of very interesting live JB recordings out there. The live 6th with the BPO (my copy is on Testament) is astonishing and in many ways a polar opposite to the studio 6th; white-hot, fast, intense and never letting up.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on August 04, 2022, 06:50:18 PM
Quote from: not edward on August 04, 2022, 11:11:33 AM
If you've not bought it yet, I encourage you to. IMO the 9th is one of the finest on record (I probably prefer Ančerl, but only by a touch), and the 5th and 6th are excellent (though more controversial). And perhaps it's just me, but I think the Lieder disc with Baker is literally one of the finest recordings ever made--not just of Mahler, but of anything.

There's also a number of very interesting live JB recordings out there. The live 6th with the BPO (my copy is on Testament) is astonishing and in many ways a polar opposite to the studio 6th; white-hot, fast, intense and never letting up.

The reason I've held off so far is because I realized that I already have most of the recordings with the exception of 5 and 6. But, if you or anyone else can convince me that the Warner set has a new remaster that's worth hearing...  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on August 04, 2022, 07:01:33 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 04, 2022, 06:50:18 PM
The reason I've held off so far is because I realized that I already have most of the recordings with the exception of 5 and 6. But, if you or anyone else can convince me that the Warner set has a new remaster that's worth hearing...  ;D

The new remastering is first class.
I also just got some Barbirolli Society CDs of two symphonies he didn't record for HMV/EMI--the Second and the Seventh, and the First with the Czech Philharmonic. They're all live performances. I have yet to listen to any, so I can't tell you how good they are.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on August 05, 2022, 02:44:11 AM
Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2022, 07:01:33 PM
The new remastering is first class.
I also just got some Barbirolli Society CDs of two symphonies he didn't record for HMV/EMI--the Second and the Seventh, and the First with the Czech Philharmonic. They're all live performances. I have yet to listen to any, so I can't tell you how good they are.

Well damn. Now you're making this hard for me  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on August 06, 2022, 08:04:26 AM
Revisiting Scherchen's Toronto recording of Mahler 7 for the first time in a few years and my memory had underestimated just how good it is.... wild, constantly pushing the music just a little bit beyond the boundaries of what ought to work, but still making sense because of the underlying vision behind. I don't think I know a recording that so clearly points up the ambiguity at the heart of the work... bombastic/meditative; optimistic/pessimistic; 19th/20th century? And the finale really borders on "there's light at the end of the tunnel... but is it the sun or is it a train?"
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 06, 2022, 10:51:57 PM
Quote from: not edward on August 06, 2022, 08:04:26 AM
Revisiting Scherchen's Toronto recording of Mahler 7 for the first time in a few years and my memory had underestimated just how good it is.... wild, constantly pushing the music just a little bit beyond the boundaries of what ought to work, but still making sense because of the underlying vision behind. I don't think I know a recording that so clearly points up the ambiguity at the heart of the work... bombastic/meditative; optimistic/pessimistic; 19th/20th century? And the finale really borders on "there's light at the end of the tunnel... but is it the sun or is it a train?"

Don't know the performance but LOVE your description of the work and this version. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: MusicTurner on August 06, 2022, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: not edward on August 06, 2022, 08:04:26 AM
Revisiting Scherchen's Toronto recording of Mahler 7 for the first time in a few years and my memory had underestimated just how good it is.... wild, constantly pushing the music just a little bit beyond the boundaries of what ought to work, but still making sense because of the underlying vision behind. I don't think I know a recording that so clearly points up the ambiguity at the heart of the work... bombastic/meditative; optimistic/pessimistic; 19th/20th century? And the finale really borders on "there's light at the end of the tunnel... but is it the sun or is it a train?"

Agree, a quite exceptional release. The Scherchen/Toronto Kunst der Fuge, but much more low-key of course, is also the best of his versions of that work, I think.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM
Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 11, 2022, 05:56:52 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM
Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?

Would be better if you share a link with a specific time to which you are referring to but my guess is he's attempting to heighten tension of a secondary/contrasting element.  He might start with a primary idea but there is a secondary idea that rears up but isn't dominant the first time it's heard.  Sort of like a character in play where you see an ominous shadow observing the main character, but that ominous shadow doesn't really do anything, you know it will be important later.  Eventually, there is a grand reveal of the darker character with a big climax or something and Mahler will heighten tension around this secondary element with many devices including trills which helps restate the note but also highlight clashing elements.  But if you can provide a link to the exact moment, that would help from guessing what you are referring to in these expansive symphonies.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2022, 06:45:02 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM

Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?



Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2022, 05:56:52 AM

Would be better if you share a link with a specific time to which you are referring to but my guess is he's attempting to heighten tension of a secondary/contrasting element.  He might start with a primary idea but there is a secondary idea that rears up but isn't dominant the first time it's heard.  Sort of like a character in play where you see an ominous shadow observing the main character, but that ominous shadow doesn't really do anything, you know it will be important later.  Eventually, there is a grand reveal of the darker character with a big climax or something and Mahler will heighten tension around this secondary element with many devices including trills which helps restate the note but also highlight clashing elements. But if you can provide a link to the exact moment, that would help from guessing what you are referring to in these expansive symphonies.


If you are talking about Bars 86 ff., note that the section leads to a climax at Bar 92, and as RELM 1 points out above, the trilling theme or motifs are used to heighten the tension.

If you listen carefully, the trilling section can be heard as an extended variation on the four-note motif used at the beginning in the Timpani and throughout the work in variations: F#-A-B-A.  In fact the horn theme in the opening bars can be understood as an immediate variation of those four quarter notes.

Also listen to the last two bars of the last movement, where the Violas play G-Ab-B-Ab, an echo of those opening notes on the Timpani.

As to what Mahler meant, nobody can know that, unless Mahler explicitly said what it meant.  Your interpretation is up to you!

Like the definition of God from Nicholas of Cusa and the definition of the Universe from Giordano Bruno, the symphony is "like an infinite sphere, whose circumference is nowhere and whose center is everywhere."

i.e. The symphony allows an infinity of interpretations.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on August 11, 2022, 07:58:14 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM
Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?

Brings to mind the quote of Vaughan Williams:

QuoteIt never seems to occur to people that a man might just want to write a piece of music.

:)

Maybe Mahler attached some sort of extra-musical significance to every note in his symphonies. If so, I don't want to know about it. I just want to listen to the music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2022, 09:48:03 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 11, 2022, 07:58:14 AM

Maybe Mahler attached some sort of extra-musical significance to every note in his symphonies. If so, I don't want to know about it. I just want to listen to the music.




Quote from: Cato on August 11, 2022, 06:45:02 AM

Like the definition of God from Nicholas of Cusa and the definition of the Universe from Giordano Bruno, the symphony is "like an infinite sphere, whose circumference is nowhere and whose center is everywhere."

i.e. The symphony allows an infinity of interpretations.


I should have added: And any correct interpretation is nowhere.   0:)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on August 11, 2022, 10:47:44 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM
Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?

You'll find sequential trills in most ( if not all ) of Mahler's orchestral works. Aside from what you've already mentioned, they're certainly present in Symphonies 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and Das Lied von der Erde.

I wouldn't ascribe any specific intent to their usage. For the most part, a trill is an ornament and Mahler usually uses it as such.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on August 11, 2022, 01:10:20 PM
I don't have the score of the 9th, so I'm trying to remember the passage @calyptorhynchus is referring to in the 1st movement: mocking trills descending. I can't quite place it in that movement. But the passage fitting that description in the 1st movement of the 10th sound to me like a direct echo of a similar figure in the 1st and 2nd movements of the 6th, where the effect is indeed savagely mocking - often accompanied by xylophone. In the 10th the figure sounds lyrical and even nostalgic to these ears.

Still trying to recall the passage in the 9th... without success.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 11, 2022, 04:32:25 PM
It's also important to keep in mind what might sound "mocking" to us might have sounded yiddish or klezmer to him.  Sounds of his youth in a way.  In Klezmer music, you frequently hear squeaking clarinet trills that are not meant to be subtle but not mocking either.  As I understand it, the attitude is far more nuanced as it can represent music of celebration in times of suffering (like a village wedding celebration while exiled) and Mahler could be using these musical references as he frequently references music, he was exposed to like the drums of No. 10 being the funeral procession of a fireman he heard in his youth.   Similarly, the rute (percussion sticks on bass drum) are Klezmer references that we might miss if only looking at this purely as music.

This excellent documentary worth watching:
https://youtu.be/v5DfYcT5icY?t=1675

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on August 11, 2022, 05:36:55 PM
Quote from: krummholz on August 11, 2022, 01:10:20 PM
I don't have the score of the 9th, so I'm trying to remember the passage @calyptorhynchus is referring to in the 1st movement: mocking trills descending. I can't quite place it in that movement. But the passage fitting that description in the 1st movement of the 10th sound to me like a direct echo of a similar figure in the 1st and 2nd movements of the 6th, where the effect is indeed savagely mocking - often accompanied by xylophone. In the 10th the figure sounds lyrical and even nostalgic to these ears.

Still trying to recall the passage in the 9th... without success.


Go to c. 5:45  Bar 86 marked Fliessend and see if that section is what we are discussing!   8)


https://www.youtube.com/v/ah3mcaRpc9Q
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on August 11, 2022, 07:13:32 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2022, 04:32:25 PM
It's also important to keep in mind what might sound "mocking" to us might have sounded yiddish or klezmer to him.  Sounds of his youth in a way.  In Klezmer music, you frequently hear squeaking clarinet trills that are not meant to be subtle but not mocking either.  As I understand it, the attitude is far more nuanced as it can represent music of celebration in times of suffering (like a village wedding celebration while exiled) and Mahler could be using these musical references as he frequently references music, he was exposed to like the drums of No. 10 being the funeral procession of a fireman he heard in his youth.   Similarly, the rute (percussion sticks on bass drum) are Klezmer references that we might miss if only looking at this purely as music.

This excellent documentary worth watching:
https://youtu.be/v5DfYcT5icY?t=1675

Slight correction: the fireman's funeral was something he saw and heard from his apartment while in New York during his tenure as conductor of the Philharmonic.

So a bit of American influence on the 10th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2022, 09:47:36 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 11, 2022, 05:36:55 PM
Go to c. 5:45  Bar 86 marked Fliessend and see if that section is what we are discussing!   8)


https://www.youtube.com/v/ah3mcaRpc9Q

Seems like I made a big error. The passage I am referring to is in the first (and fifth movement) of the Tenth. I don't have a score of the Tenth, but it's at 8:47 in the first movement in Barshai's recording. Listening to that the other day I was convinced it also occurred in the Ninth, but now I don't think it does (have listened to the first three movements today and couldn't hear it).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on August 12, 2022, 03:54:24 AM
Quote from: Cato on August 11, 2022, 05:36:55 PM
Go to c. 5:45  Bar 86 marked Fliessend and see if that section is what we are discussing!   8)


https://www.youtube.com/v/ah3mcaRpc9Q

"Full screen is unavailable"

And the print is too small for me to read here, though I *think* I have an idea from the page displayed - maybe the rapid figures on (I think) muted strings based on the F#-A-B-F# figure first heard at the opening on the harp? Very unsure if that is what you mean, but those do not strike me as related to the ones in the 10th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on August 12, 2022, 05:28:17 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 11, 2022, 07:58:14 AM
Brings to mind the quote of Vaughan Williams:

At this moment, Vaughan Williams has moved up my listening priority list.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 12, 2022, 06:01:34 AM
Quote from: JBS on August 11, 2022, 07:13:32 PM
Slight correction: the fireman's funeral was something he saw and heard from his apartment while in New York during his tenure as conductor of the Philharmonic.

So a bit of American influence on the 10th.

Ahh...was going off memory but thanks for the correction.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 12, 2022, 06:25:16 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2022, 09:47:36 PM
Seems like I made a big error. The passage I am referring to is in the first (and fifth movement) of the Tenth. I don't have a score of the Tenth, but it's at 8:47 in the first movement in Barshai's recording. Listening to that the other day I was convinced it also occurred in the Ninth, but now I don't think it does (have listened to the first three movements today and couldn't hear it).

I think you are referring to these trills here?
https://youtu.be/8qYqW-otXxI?t=536

If this is what you're referring to, not the same as the trills adding tension as a climax loom which is another devise, just not used here.  I frankly don't hear this as having that much extra-musical meaning but still sounds an awful lot like the music he was exposed to in his youth in his family's tavern.  See that documentary I linked to earlier from MTT/SFO where they play side by side the tavern songs of that day and how those tunes worked their way in to funeral marches.  The specific example, from Mahler's 1st symphony, 3rd movement - the funeral march, starts with a funeral march (not dark or angst filled like Chopin but a solemn procession) but in the middle of it, a slow waltz joins in the procession then another one interrupts the first one.  I think if there is any extra-musical inspiration here, it is that joy and sorrow are bedfellows.

On a side note, I've been reading Mahler's Letters to Alma and from this period, I was very surprised how upbeat and positive Mahler was.  From 1910, just months before his death, he wrote this: "I've come through the year with flying colours, and haven't actually spared myself.  Of the three of us [Mahler, Alma, Alma's mother (his mother in law)], I alone have uninterruptedly enjoyed good health."  This surprised me because at this time he had completed the 9th (his darkest work), was rehearsing the 8th (his greatest public success), and was starting on the 10th.  Mahler is an interesting enigma - his music contains so much passion and he seemed to be in good spirits at the time.  His career was on fire, and he seemed very happy and productive.  But above all, he was more in love than ever.  That same period he told her "Don't you know me better?  I've never been more fond of you than I am now - really never!".  He already knew she had cheated on him several times and she was apologizing for it asking if he thought she was a "scamp"?  During this same time was conducting ten opera productions a month and would spend the summer composing his 10th symphony.  Remember, he spent the summers working on his own music because of his conducting work but he would not live to the following summer as he died May 18, 1911, where he would have completed the full score of the 10th symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on August 12, 2022, 07:24:26 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 12, 2022, 06:25:16 AM
I think you are referring to these trills here?
https://youtu.be/8qYqW-otXxI?t=536

Not sure about @calyptorhynchus, but those are indeed the trills I was referring to, and which to me seem like an echo of the ones in the 6th. But the overall context in which they occur is, I agree, very likely a reference to the music he heard in his youth.

QuoteIf this is what you're referring to, not the same as the trills adding tension as a climax loom which is another devise, just not used here.  I frankly don't hear this as having that much extra-musical meaning but still sounds an awful lot like the music he was exposed to in his youth in his family's tavern.  See that documentary I linked to earlier from MTT/SFO where they play side by side the tavern songs of that day and how those tunes worked their way in to funeral marches.  The specific example, from Mahler's 1st symphony, 3rd movement - the funeral march, starts with a funeral march (not dark or angst filled like Chopin but a solemn procession) but in the middle of it, a slow waltz joins in the procession then another one interrupts the first one.  I think if there is any extra-musical inspiration here, it is that joy and sorrow are bedfellows.

+1. The "interruption of the interruption" in #1, III does indeed sound like klezmer music, and I believe Bernstein even pointed this out in one of his talks on Mahler.

QuoteOn a side note, I've been reading Mahler's Letters to Alma and from this period, I was very surprised how upbeat and positive Mahler was.  From 1910, just months before his death, he wrote this: "I've come through the year with flying colours, and haven't actually spared myself.  Of the three of us [Mahler, Alma, Alma's mother (his mother in law)], I alone have uninterruptedly enjoyed good health."  This surprised me because at this time he had completed the 9th (his darkest work), was rehearsing the 8th (his greatest public success), and was starting on the 10th.  Mahler is an interesting enigma - his music contains so much passion and he seemed to be in good spirits at the time.  His career was on fire, and he seemed very happy and productive. [...]

Indeed. The usual story that Mahler in his last years was dying of a heart ailment and knew it has to be classified as a canard. He had a (probably rheumatic) heart valve defect that certainly predisposed him to the endocarditis infection that felled him in February, 1911, but he was not disabled by it (at least, not after the first few months after his diagnosis when he severely curtailed his physical activities). He was extremely active and as you say, his career was on fire, spending his winters in New York where he was conducting both the Philharmonic and (if memory serves) the Metropolitan Opera, and composing in Europe during the summer.

I tend to agree with Deryck Cooke that the 9th was a phase in Mahler's development, both as a person and as a composer, and that the 10th shows that he was well past that phase and exploring new worlds in his music. It's a terrible pity that antibiotics had yet to be discovered in 1911 - scarcely 30 years later, Mahler's illness would have been curable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on August 12, 2022, 05:03:11 PM
I've been hoping to experience a little Mahler Mania, but these works are so long, even one movement taxes my schedule! :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 06:04:10 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 12, 2022, 05:03:11 PM
I've been hoping to experience a little Mahler Mania, but these works are so long, even one movement taxes my schedule! :)

"If you think you're boring your audience, go slower not faster." - Gustav Mahler
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on August 14, 2022, 06:39:32 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 06:04:10 AM
"If you think you're boring your audience, go slower not faster." - Gustav Mahler

I should have this etched in stone and hung above my stereos. I was commenting in the big box thread that long frantic ballets can't hold my attention, but a thirty minute Mahler movement even at a low volume- I've been so absorbed that I've only later seen the missed call on my phone!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on August 14, 2022, 08:04:35 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 06:04:10 AM
"If you think you're boring your audience, go slower not faster." - Gustav Mahler

I don't begrudge Mahler the heavenly length. I just wish I had the time to experience it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 06:24:40 AM
What's everyone's favorite recording of the 9th?

I really like the Barbirolli/Berlin lately. The new remaster sounds excellent too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on August 15, 2022, 06:40:52 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 06:24:40 AM
What's everyone's favorite recording of the 9th?

I really like the Barbirolli/Berlin lately. The new remaster sounds excellent too.

Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle
Levine/Munich Philharmonic
Maderna/BBC SO
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 15, 2022, 07:16:12 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 06:24:40 AM
What's everyone's favorite recording of the 9th?

I really like the Barbirolli/Berlin lately. The new remaster sounds excellent too.

I particularly love the Bernstein/Concertgebouw Orchestra and the Karajan/Berliner.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 15, 2022, 08:14:58 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 06:24:40 AM
What's everyone's favorite recording of the 9th?

I really like the Barbirolli/Berlin lately. The new remaster sounds excellent too.

I don't have a clear favorite. I like that Barbirolli and listen to it quite a lot; I also like Sinopoli, Giulini, Klemperer, Abbado/Berlin, Haitink, and (for an extreme experience) Bernstein/Conc'bouw. Each is very good in its own way and creates a unique experience.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 15, 2022, 01:13:43 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 06:24:40 AM
What's everyone's favorite recording of the 9th?

Chailly/Concertgebouw and Karajan/Berlin (1982 live)

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 15, 2022, 05:23:44 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 15, 2022, 07:16:12 AM
I particularly love the Bernstein/Concertgebouw Orchestra and the Karajan/Berliner.

Me too.  These are my favorite M9.  I find them very personal and deeply moving.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 05:34:56 PM
Thanks so much for everyone sharing their favorites. Very interesting to see the varieties of opinion.

Like most everyone else, I don't have a single clear favorite. The two I've listened to and enjoyed the most are both with the Berlin Philharmonic: Barbirolli and Karajan (1982 live recording). The other ones I have are Walter/Columbia, Bernstein/New York, Klemperer/New Philharmonia, Rattle/Berlin, Bernstein/Concertgebouw, and Boulez/Chicago. I haven't heard the last two, but of the others, I like them all, but haven't spent as much time with them as I have with the aforementioned Barbirolli and Karajan recordings. For some reason this is a symphony that I don't really take issue with amassing several recordings of it. It's such a remarkable—and somewhat mysterious—piece of music, and I love hearing how different great interpreters make sense of it. I suspect I'll cull some of them out of my collection at some point, but even now, with my already excessive collection, I'm still looking at more  ;D

Two I'm very curious about are Karel Ančerl/Czech Philharmonic and the Haitink/Bavarian RSO on BR Klassik from late in his life. Would love to hear the Haitink/Concertgebouw as well, but it's not easy to find at the moment. (None of Haitink's Concertgebouw recordings seem to be easily available, which is a shame.)

Anyway, I love Mahler's 9th—in a little bit of an obsessive phase with it if y'all couldn't already tell. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on August 15, 2022, 07:07:00 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 05:34:56 PM
For some reason this is a symphony that I don't really take issue with amassing several recordings of it. It's such a remarkable—and somewhat mysterious—piece of music, and I love hearing how different great interpreters make sense of it.

I have (or have heard) more recordings of this piece than any other, and I've heard it live 4 times. It's inexhaustible. My first encounter with it was a Bernstein/VPO broadcast on television, which inspired me to buy Karajan's first recording (the studio one, with the rainbow on the cover).

QuoteWould love to hear the Haitink/Concertgebouw as well, but it's not easy to find at the moment.

Yep, that's a good one (I have the original Philips LP issue).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on August 17, 2022, 06:24:38 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 05:34:56 PM

Thanks so much for everyone sharing their favorites. Very interesting to see the varieties of opinion.


Anyway, I love Mahler's 9th—in a little bit of an obsessive phase with it if y'all couldn't already tell. :)


I knew a priest who said that he owned every known recording of the Mahler Ninth Symphony, and (he lived in Toledo here in Ohio) would travel as far west as Chicago, north to Detroit, east to Pittsburgh, and south to Cincinnati and all points in between (Cleveland!) to hear the work performed live.  But if he had the money at the moment (which was not often), he would fly to hear it played farther away.

He died some years ago: I often wonder to whom he willed his CD collection, which went well beyond Mahler's Ninth.


Anyway...

I am partial to the DGG Boulez CD and the early stereo Leopold Ludwig recording on Everest.

https://www.youtube.com/v/_mK_9oVvACs
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on August 17, 2022, 01:48:01 PM
Quote from: Cato on August 17, 2022, 06:24:38 AM
I knew a priest who said that he owned every known recording of the Mahler Ninth Symphony, and (he lived in Toledo here in Ohio) would travel as far west as Chicago, north to Detroit, east to Pittsburgh, and south to Cincinnati and all points in between (Cleveland!) to hear the work performed live.  But if he had the money at the moment (which was not often), he would fly to hear it played farther away.

He died some years ago: I often wonder to whom he willed his CD collection, which went well beyond Mahler's Ninth.


Anyway...

I am partial to the DGG Boulez CD and the early stereo Leopold Ludwig recording on Everest.

https://www.youtube.com/v/_mK_9oVvACs

Can't remember whether or not I've told you this before but my whole family is from Toledo  ;D That's dedication. I've never seen the 9th live, but I would love to. Definitely don't plan on amassing every available recording of it, but I can see where this guy is coming from.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on August 17, 2022, 04:16:09 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 17, 2022, 01:48:01 PM
Can't remember whether or not I've told you this before but my whole family is from Toledo  ;D That's dedication. I've never seen the 9th live, but I would love to. Definitely don't plan on amassing every available recording of it, but I can see where this guy is coming from.

No, I don't recall that your family is from Toledo! You might have noticed my comments about the Toledo Symphony Orchestra and some of the excellent performances of the Bruckner symphonies.

I heard the Cleveland Orchestra 20 years ago or so play the Mahler Ninth Symphony.  I believe Christoph Von Dohnanyi was the conductor: a near religious experience!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: not edward on August 18, 2022, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 15, 2022, 06:24:40 AM
What's everyone's favorite recording of the 9th?

I really like the Barbirolli/Berlin lately. The new remaster sounds excellent too.
Ančerl. Wonderful CzPO playing and a very subtle, superbly articulated performance. I never know quite why it's so affecting for me, but it is.

Barbirolli and Maderna would probably be the other two if I had to pick... I listened to JB for the first time in a long time recently and it really is as good as its reputation, while for me Maderna pushes to extremes and makes it work.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on August 18, 2022, 04:56:07 PM
Quote from: not edward on August 18, 2022, 01:15:40 PM
Ančerl. Wonderful CzPO playing and a very subtle, superbly articulated performance. I never know quite why it's so affecting for me, but it is.

Barbirolli and Maderna would probably be the other two if I had to pick... I listened to JB for the first time in a long time recently and it really is as good as its reputation, while for me Maderna pushes to extremes and makes it work.

I got the Barbirolli boxed set recently—largely on your good word for that performance—and I agree, that 9th is just amazing. I've been playing it nonstop, most recently a bit earlier tonight. Ančerl/Czech Philharmonic is definitely on my radar too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on August 19, 2022, 04:10:35 AM
Quote from: not edward on August 18, 2022, 01:15:40 PM
Ančerl. Wonderful CzPO playing and a very subtle, superbly articulated performance. I never know quite why it's so affecting for me, but it is.

Barbirolli and Maderna would probably be the other two if I had to pick... I listened to JB for the first time in a long time recently and it really is as good as its reputation, while for me Maderna pushes to extremes and makes it work.

+1 to Ančerl, simply incredible. I am hoping this gets a new transfer from Tower Japan as the Supraphon Gold Series uses noise reduction so I stick with my original 90s CD.

For Maderna I take it you mean the one from 1971 with BBC Symphony? There is also a lesser known late 1972 recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on August 20, 2022, 05:21:20 AM
How bad does the Ančerl Gold release sound? Asking because there's a local record store that has it for I think $3 and I was thinking of driving over there to buy it today.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daverz on August 20, 2022, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 20, 2022, 05:21:20 AM
How bad does the Ančerl Gold release sound? Asking because there's a local record store that has it for I think $3 and I was thinking of driving over there to buy it today.

Sounds good to me, but I haven't heard the older "postage stamp" version.  I'll note that the latter can be streamed on Qobuz:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/ga6sbhlf8036b

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/6b/03/ga6sbhlf8036b_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on August 24, 2022, 11:05:59 AM
Listening live to the end of Mahler 2 with Simon Rattle and the LSO on BBC Radio 3. (The concert will be broadcast again on Sunday, 28 August.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_three

https://lso.co.uk/whats-on/icalrepeat.detail/2022/08/24/2341/-/bbc-proms-2022-mahler-2.html

--Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2022, 06:16:02 AM
I purchased this thinking that it was this month's Gramophone. It was not. It is a Mahler special (I should have checked the price)  ::)
(//)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on September 13, 2022, 09:24:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2022, 06:16:02 AM
I purchased this thinking that it was this month's Gramophone. It was not. It is a Mahler special (I should have checked the price)  ::)
(//)

I hope you're not too annoyed. For my part, I'd be happy to purchase it by mistake, and will probably seek it out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2022, 10:45:31 AM
Quote from: LKB on September 13, 2022, 09:24:25 AM
I hope you're not too annoyed. For my part, I'd be happy to purchase it by mistake, and will probably seek it out.
No, I'm fine with it - just that it's about twice the price of Gramophone. I'm sure that I'll enjoy reading it.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on September 19, 2022, 07:42:52 AM
I have to say I'm really loving the Osmo Vanska Mahler cycle on BIS. The M6 was revelatory to my ears. The M7 is amazing with it's delicacy and colors - a whole different way of hearing it. I'm hearing amazing details I've never heard before in the M2, M4, and M5. There are nice sharp attacks on the beats of various phrases - played with élan!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on September 27, 2022, 09:41:44 PM
The autograph score of Mahler's Symphony No. 2 has been donated to... Cleveland.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/27/arts/music/mahler-resurrection-symphony-manuscript-cleveland-orchestra.html#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16643398988686&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2022%2F09%2F27%2Farts%2Fmusic%2Fmahler-resurrection-symphony-manuscript-cleveland-orchestra.html
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: staxomega on October 01, 2022, 07:47:26 AM
Quote from: LKB on September 27, 2022, 09:41:44 PM
The autograph score of Mahler's Symphony No. 2 has been donated to... Cleveland.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/27/arts/music/mahler-resurrection-symphony-manuscript-cleveland-orchestra.html#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16643398988686&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2022%2F09%2F27%2Farts%2Fmusic%2Fmahler-resurrection-symphony-manuscript-cleveland-orchestra.html

I was under the impression the Kaplan Foundation owned the autograph score, I can't read the article since it's paywalled, the blurb says previous owner was "anonymous." Doing some Google searches brings up an incomplete provenance: https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/compositions/symphony-no-2/symphony-no-2-manuscript/

Edit: Kaplan Foundation auctioned it after Gilbert Kaplan's death, and the purchaser was Herbert G. Kloiber who donated it to Cleveland. https://www.broadwayworld.com/cleveland/article/The-Cleveland-Orchestra-Receives-Gift-Of-The-Autograph-Manuscript-Of-Gustav-Mahlers-Symphony-No-2-20220927
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on October 01, 2022, 05:51:05 PM
Wow, Seiji Ozawa's Mahler is stunning—or at least the two discs I have, the 2nd with the Saito Kinen and the 8th in Boston, are. I wonder why he's not more highly regarded as a Mahler conductor.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on October 01, 2022, 07:51:44 PM
I've always had a great deal of respect for Ozawa. Back in the '70's when WGBH was producing the Evening at Symphony broadcasts l would dutifully plunk myself down in front of our big old RCA TV, and prepare for the ensuing bliss. 😀

Along with Bernstein and Mehta, he introduced me to Mahler via his interpretation of Symphony No. 1, and he introduced me to Berlioz as well.

Ozawa may not be spoken of with the same reverence as other conductors, but in his work with Japanese musicians and his willingness to learn through the decades, he is more than worthy, imho.




Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on October 03, 2022, 07:42:36 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 01, 2022, 05:51:05 PM
Wow, Seiji Ozawa's Mahler is stunning—or at least the two discs I have, the 2nd with the Saito Kinen and the 8th in Boston, are. I wonder why he's not more highly regarded as a Mahler conductor.
I agree, he seems to be underrated accept I know many Mahlerians who love his Mahler, especially the M3 and M9. Great recordings there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mapman on October 03, 2022, 04:03:50 PM
This weekend, I saw my university's orchestra perform Mahler 1. It was a good student performance, although the tempi all seemed a bit relaxed.

In the program notes, the author claims that Mahler quotes Wagner's Parsifal in the first symphony. Does anyone know where that is?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 03, 2022, 04:30:51 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 03, 2022, 07:42:36 AM
I agree, he seems to be underrated accept I know many Mahlerians who love his Mahler, especially the M3 and M9. Great recordings there.

I can't say I've listened to Ozawa's interpretations of Mahler so added to my listening list!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on October 03, 2022, 09:06:33 PM
Quote from: Mapman on October 03, 2022, 04:03:50 PM
This weekend, I saw my university's orchestra perform Mahler 1. It was a good student performance, although the tempi all seemed a bit relaxed.

In the program notes, the author claims that Mahler quotes Wagner's Parsifal in the first symphony. Does anyone know where that is?

Probably the theme in the last movement that first appears in C major. The first three notes - G, A, C - are (transposed) one of the principal motifs from Parsifal (might be the "Grail" motif? not sure).

Edit: not sure if this YouTube link will work, but here's the full motif as it appears in Parsifal (in A-flat in this example):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHOIT83H4AA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHOIT83H4AA)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mapman on October 04, 2022, 10:10:59 AM
Quote from: krummholz on October 03, 2022, 09:06:33 PM
Probably the theme in the last movement that first appears in C major. The first three notes - G, A, C - are (transposed) one of the principal motifs from Parsifal (might be the "Grail" motif? not sure).

Edit: not sure if this YouTube link will work, but here's the full motif as it appears in Parsifal (in A-flat in this example):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHOIT83H4AA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHOIT83H4AA)

That is almost definitely it! Here's a link to where the theme appears in the trumpets near the end of the last movement of Mahler's first.
https://youtu.be/ypClfhEwwCw?t=3235 (https://youtu.be/ypClfhEwwCw?t=3235)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 04, 2022, 04:57:06 PM
Mahler was clearly impacted by Wagner.  Take a look at the concerts he programmed for the NY Phil:  Here are all NY Phil concerts that Mahler conducted.  If you click the blue icon that looks like a book, it will bring a scan of each program booklet.

https://archives.nyphil.org/performancehistory/#artistprogram?npp:ConductorID,npp:SoloistsID=2236|false|false&contextParam=art:ArtistName/Mahler, Gustav (https://archives.nyphil.org/performancehistory/#artistprogram?npp:ConductorID,npp:SoloistsID=2236%7Cfalse%7Cfalse&contextParam=art:ArtistName/Mahler,%20Gustav)

Aside from his own works, composers that keep appearing were:

Wagner
Wagner
R. Strauss
Wagner
Weber
Wagner
Wagner
Wagner
Beethoven
Wagner
Wagner
Wagner
Wagner
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mirror Image on October 04, 2022, 07:15:37 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 13, 2022, 06:16:02 AM
I purchased this thinking that it was this month's Gramophone. It was not. It is a Mahler special (I should have checked the price)  ::)
(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=683.0;attach=91058;image)

Thanks for this alert, Jeffrey. I just bought this special issue. Can't wait to dig through it --- my love of Mahler has grown tremendously over 13 years. In fact, I don't think I could imagine my life without his music. Works like Das Lied von der Erde, Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 & 9 and the song cycles Rückert-Lieder and Kindertotenlieder are desert island works for me.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on October 05, 2022, 03:00:55 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 04, 2022, 04:57:06 PM
Mahler was clearly impacted by Wagner.  Take a look at the concerts he programmed for the NY Phil:  Here are all NY Phil concerts that Mahler conducted.  If you click the blue icon that looks like a book, it will bring a scan of each program booklet.

https://archives.nyphil.org/performancehistory/#artistprogram?npp:ConductorID,npp:SoloistsID=2236|false|false&contextParam=art:ArtistName/Mahler, Gustav (https://archives.nyphil.org/performancehistory/#artistprogram?npp:ConductorID,npp:SoloistsID=2236%7Cfalse%7Cfalse&contextParam=art:ArtistName/Mahler,%20Gustav)

Aside from his own works, composers that keep appearing were:

Wagner
Wagner
R. Strauss
Wagner
Weber
Wagner
Wagner
Wagner
Beethoven
Wagner
Wagner
Wagner
Wagner

And reportedly, in at least one case he programmed a Wagner work, the Die Meistersinger prelude, along with his own, explicitly to draw attention to the close resemblance between the main theme of the Wagner and that of the finale of his 7th Symphony.

But of course, Mahler was also indebted to many other composers and sometimes quoted or almost-quoted them. Going back to the 1st Symphony's finale, others have remarked on the resemblance the final form of the "triumph" theme bears to a chorus from Handel's Messiah ("And he shall reign...") - and on the very Beethovenian main theme of the funeral march that launches the 2nd Symphony on its way.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on October 05, 2022, 03:42:46 AM
FWIW I think the similarities both to the Grail motive and to  "And he shall reign" seem superficial to me. But I admittedly am rather wary of many supposed allusions and quotations...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 05, 2022, 05:29:27 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 05, 2022, 03:42:46 AM
FWIW I think the similarities both to the Grail motive and to  "And he shall reign" seem superficial to me. But I admittedly am rather wary of many supposed allusions and quotations...

I agree with you.  It's like saying the Mahler quoted Beethoven with the bird calls in the same symphony here:
https://youtu.be/9ORsinmqm0M?t=1410

There are similarities with the Wagner operatic brass fanfares but overall, lots of allusions to other music including klezmer and folk.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 05, 2022, 06:19:49 AM
Quote from: krummholz on October 05, 2022, 03:00:55 AM
And reportedly, in at least one case he programmed a Wagner work, the Die Meistersinger prelude, along with his own, explicitly to draw attention to the close resemblance between the main theme of the Wagner and that of the finale of his 7th Symphony.

...
Interesting. Didn't know about that. What I do know is that my first reaction when hearing the finale of the Seventh was "This is the prelude to Die Meistersinger gone berserk!"  ;D

Do you have any source for that report that I could look up?

Cheers.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on October 05, 2022, 07:42:30 AM
Quote from: ritter on October 05, 2022, 06:19:49 AM
Interesting. Didn't know about that. What I do know is that my first reaction when hearing the finale of the Seventh was "This is the prelude to Die Meistersinger gone berserk!"  ;D

Do you have any source for that report that I could look up?

Cheers.

Gosh, it's been so long since I read that, I don't recall the source. I did, however, find this little tidbit in an essay at the website mahlerfoundation.org:

"There is no doubt that he intended to make the connection between the final march subject and Wagner's Meistersinger march. He suggested as much explaining why he programmed the prelude to demise to the singer in the same concert in which he premiers the seventh, hoping that the audience would make the connection."

(No, I have no idea what the word "demise" means in this context; it appears in several places in that paragraph and I suspect the article is a literal translation from a different language.)

From https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/listening-guide/listening-guide-movement-5-rondo-finale/ (https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/listening-guide/listening-guide-movement-5-rondo-finale/)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Crudblud on October 05, 2022, 08:18:17 AM
Quote from: krummholz on October 05, 2022, 07:42:30 AM
(No, I have no idea what the word "demise" means in this context; it appears in several places in that paragraph and I suspect the article is a literal translation from a different language.)
I have a sneaking suspicion that "prelude to demise to the singer" is a mishearing of "Prelude to Die Meistersinger". Possibly a machine transcription error.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on October 05, 2022, 09:15:38 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on October 05, 2022, 08:18:17 AM
I have a sneaking suspicion that "prelude to demise to the singer" is a mishearing of "Prelude to Die Meistersinger". Possibly a machine transcription error.

Could very well be, however if that's the case then one wonders how the machine got "kapellmeister musik" almost correct (spelled musik as "musique"). The weird quirks of software, I guess...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on October 05, 2022, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: krummholz on October 05, 2022, 07:42:30 AM
Gosh, it's been so long since I read that, I don't recall the source. I did, however, find this little tidbit in an essay at the website mahlerfoundation.org:

"There is no doubt that he intended to make the connection between the final march subject and Wagner's Meistersinger march. He suggested as much explaining why he programmed the prelude to demise to the singer in the same concert in which he premiers the seventh, hoping that the audience would make the connection."

(No, I have no idea what the word "demise" means in this context; it appears in several places in that paragraph and I suspect the article is a literal translation from a different language.)

From https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/listening-guide/listening-guide-movement-5-rondo-finale/ (https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/listening-guide/listening-guide-movement-5-rondo-finale/)
Thanks! Will read that with interest.

Quote from: Crudblud on October 05, 2022, 08:18:17 AM
I have a sneaking suspicion that "prelude to demise to the singer" is a mishearing of "Prelude to Die Meistersinger". Possibly a machine transcription error.
Yep, looks very probable that is the case.  :D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on October 05, 2022, 10:41:14 AM
I just went looking through the NYPO program archives
1)He did not perform the Seventh in New York--he did do the First and Fourth, plus Kindertotenlieder, and some songs from the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer cycles.
2) Beethoven appears so often that either he or the Philharmonic audience (or both) must have been obsessed with LvB. A few programs were all Beethoven affairs.
3) They were obsessed almost as much with Wagner. He got some all Wagner programs. (Tchaikovsky got one program to himself.)
4) The Prelude to Act 1 of Die Meistersinger was performed so often, on so many different programs, that the musicians could probably have done it in their sleep.  If it was as popular with German audiences, then (if it did appear on the same concert as the Seventh) the motive was more likely to be "please the crowd" than priming their ears for the symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on October 06, 2022, 05:25:28 AM
Quote from: JBS on October 05, 2022, 10:41:14 AM
I just went looking through the NYPO program archives
1)He did not perform the Seventh in New York--he did do the First and Fourth, plus Kindertotenlieder, and some songs from the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer cycles.
2) Beethoven appears so often that either he or the Philharmonic audience (or both) must have been obsessed with LvB. A few programs were all Beethoven affairs.
3) They were obsessed almost as much with Wagner. He got some all Wagner programs. (Tchaikovsky got one program to himself.)
4) The Prelude to Act 1 of Die Meistersinger was performed so often, on so many different programs, that the musicians could probably have done it in their sleep.  If it was as popular with German audiences, then (if it did appear on the same concert as the Seventh) the motive was more likely to be "please the crowd" than priming their ears for the symphony.

Also his second was in there a few times.  Do you think he was an innovative programmer?  His programs would seem right at home in any concert hall today but that could mean 100 years ago, lots of that music was cutting edge (Richard Strauss was 46 years old so might have been an up and comer).  No one had heard Der Rosenkavalier (1911) yet.  I don't think Mahler was famous as a composer yet so NYC audiences might have found this to be cutting edge European music with some well-known works to pack the hall.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on October 06, 2022, 07:08:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 06, 2022, 05:25:28 AM
Also his second was in there a few times.  Do you think he was an innovative programmer?  His programs would seem right at home in any concert hall today but that could mean 100 years ago, lots of that music was cutting edge (Richard Strauss was 46 years old so might have been an up and comer).  No one had heard Der Rosenkavalier (1911) yet.  I don't think Mahler was famous as a composer yet so NYC audiences might have found this to be cutting edge European music with some well-known works to pack the hall.

I agree. But as to whether the Die Meistersinger prelude was programmed along with M7 purely as a crowd pleaser, as the previous poster said, I wish I could find my original source as it said that Mahler was explicit (possibly in an interview or something he wrote) that he wanted the audience to make the connection between his finale and the Wagner. The essay I linked-to sort of says that (says Mahler "suggested as much, explaining why"), but without the context, and given the other errors in the transcription or whatever it was, it's really hard to say whether that should be taken literally. (Of course, I think it should, but that's because I saw the same claim elsewhere.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on October 06, 2022, 07:54:42 AM
I'm walking on air - I now have tickets to see my 1st Mahler 3rd live in November, with Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota orchestra. I've become a fan of his cycle and I like his Sibelius too (both recorded cycles are excellent).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on October 06, 2022, 08:05:00 AM
I attended a concert with MTT conducting the San Francisco Symphony in the Third maybe thirty years ago.

Tbh, l don't remember all that much. Perhaps because MTT is better with late Mahler, or perhaps because I'm an old fart with a poor memory.

In any event, l hope the stars align and you experience a Third for the ages.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: krummholz on October 06, 2022, 08:08:45 AM
The 3rd is the only Mahler symphony I've ever heard live - but it wasn't by a conductor of MTT's stature, or by an orchestra of the SFSO's standing... it was a local orchestra in Flint, MI, about 15 years ago or so. It was, still, a very good performance.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on October 06, 2022, 07:26:48 PM
Quote from: krummholz on October 06, 2022, 07:08:03 AM
I agree. But as to whether the Die Meistersinger prelude was programmed along with M7 purely as a crowd pleaser, as the previous poster said, I wish I could find my original source as it said that Mahler was explicit (possibly in an interview or something he wrote) that he wanted the audience to make the connection between his finale and the Wagner. The essay I linked-to sort of says that (says Mahler "suggested as much, explaining why"), but without the context, and given the other errors in the transcription or whatever it was, it's really hard to say whether that should be taken literally. (Of course, I think it should, but that's because I saw the same claim elsewhere.)

His use of the Meistersinger march gets extra tang if it was a sort of "top of the pops" selection.
Quote from: relm1 on October 06, 2022, 05:25:28 AM
Also his second was in there a few times.  Do you think he was an innovative programmer?  His programs would seem right at home in any concert hall today but that could mean 100 years ago, lots of that music was cutting edge (Richard Strauss was 46 years old so might have been an up and comer).  No one had heard Der Rosenkavalier (1911) yet.  I don't think Mahler was famous as a composer yet so NYC audiences might have found this to be cutting edge European music with some well-known works to pack the hall.

Debussy and Elgar appear on the programs two or three times each. Busoni and Schwarenka appear as both composers and solo pianists (Schwarenka in one of his own concertos), and you probably know that Rachmaninov was soloist in the American premiere of one of his own concertos.

It should also be remembered that Mahler did not conduct at every NYPO concert--Damrosch was his main alternate--so I didn't check those, and that several programs were on "tour" in Connecticut, upstate New York, and sometimes in the Midwest. The programs tended to be the same on any given tour, no matter which citied were being visited
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on October 10, 2022, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: LKB on October 06, 2022, 08:05:00 AM
I attended a concert with MTT conducting the San Francisco Symphony in the Third maybe thirty years ago.

Tbh, l don't remember all that much. Perhaps because MTT is better with late Mahler, or perhaps because I'm an old fart with a poor memory.

In any event, l hope the stars align and you experience a Third for the ages.  8)
Thank you kindly! I can't wait!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on October 31, 2022, 02:07:25 AM
Last night I listened to the livestream of Mahler 7 (my fave) with Alan Gilbert conducting the NDR in the Elbphilharmonie.

Later I relistened (and watched) Haitink and the RCO in 1985 Xmas Matinee, a performance that much more renders the demonic AND the Mendelssohnian (Midsummernight's Dream!), the light and the dark.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 31, 2022, 05:52:25 AM
Quote from: Herman on October 31, 2022, 02:07:25 AM
Last night I listened to the livestream of Mahler 7 (my fave) with Alan Gilbert conducting the NDR in the Elbphilharmonie.

Later I relistened (and watched) Haitink and the RCO in 1985 Xmas Matinee, a performance that much more renders the demonic AND the Mendelssohnian (Midsummernight's Dream!), the light and the dark.

What a good summation!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on November 03, 2022, 04:03:42 PM
On Friday, Nov. 11, at 9:00pm (EST), Minnesota Public Radio will broadcast (live) the Symphony No. 3, the final installment of Osmo Vänskä's Mahler cycle with the Minnesota Orchestra, with mezzo-soprano Jennifer Johnston, the women of the Minnesota Chorale, and the Minnesota Boychoir.

https://www.mpr.org/

-Bruce

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on November 10, 2022, 07:47:19 PM
A more accurate link for tomorrow's Mahler 3 with Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra:

https://www.yourclassical.org/story/2022/09/19/minnesota-orchestra-2022-23-season

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on November 11, 2022, 06:33:37 AM
Quote from: Brewski on November 10, 2022, 07:47:19 PM
A more accurate link for tomorrow's Mahler 3 with Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra:

https://www.yourclassical.org/story/2022/09/19/minnesota-orchestra-2022-23-season

-Bruce

I haven't heard anything conducted by Vänskä, so perhaps l should start with that link. Thanks for posting it.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 11, 2022, 09:06:45 AM
Quote from: Brewski on November 10, 2022, 07:47:19 PM
A more accurate link for tomorrow's Mahler 3 with Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra:

https://www.yourclassical.org/story/2022/09/19/minnesota-orchestra-2022-23-season

-Bruce

Thanks! I was sick so I wasn't able to go yesterday to see Vanska conduct my beloved Mahler 3 (on 11-10).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: bhodges on November 14, 2022, 08:03:48 PM
Last Thursday's Mahler 7 from Carnegie Hall, with Kirill Petrenko and the Berlin Philharmonic:

https://www.wqxr.org/story/berliner-philharmoniker/

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on November 14, 2022, 09:08:52 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on November 11, 2022, 09:06:45 AM
Thanks! I was sick so I wasn't able to go yesterday to see Vanska conduct my beloved Mahler 3 (on 11-10).

I hope you're feeling better soon, if not already.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: KevinP on November 15, 2022, 02:57:29 AM
What are some of the best Mahler recordings of, say, the last ten years?

One of my all-time favourite composers, but I haven't kept up.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on November 15, 2022, 05:28:04 AM
Quote from: KevinP on November 15, 2022, 02:57:29 AM
What are some of the best Mahler recordings of, say, the last ten years?

One of my all-time favourite composers, but I haven't kept up.

Some people speak highly of the Minnesota Vanska cycle.  I find them a bit unorthodox but that's not a bad thing when there are so many very fine cycles.  Gabriel Feltz's new cycle seems interesting, but I haven't listened yet.  I liked the samples I heard. 

Gabriel Feltz's cycle:
(https://www.dreyer-gaido.de/images/CDCover/21140.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 15, 2022, 05:59:18 AM
Quote from: LKB on November 14, 2022, 09:08:52 PM
I hope you're feeling better soon, if not already.
Thanks so much, I'm still healing from this Bronchitis.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AM
Yesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

I've got one negative thought that might get me in trouble, and then a bunch of positive ones. Negative one first: this piece does in large measure sound derivative of previous Mahler works. People cite Shostakovich as an example of a composer with a "samey" or unchanging sound world, but Mahler's is too: his orchestration has tics (like screeching high clarinets), his harmonies exist in a certain narrow spectrum a lot of the time, and even his melodies share shapes (he has favorite intervals). Listening to 5, 6, and 7, I get the impression that melodic inspiration became more challenging for him after the initial song-cycle wellspring dried up. There are memorable tunes in each, but also many tunes that seem derived from the youthful collections.

The first movement reminded me a lot of the first few minutes of the Third: the march rhythms, gloomy mood, turbulence. The second movement reminded me of the Third's first movement even more, and I heard quotes from the same movement in the finale, too. Now, the good thing is I love the first movement of the Third, so this was a major plus for me.

This is a big, shaggy symphony, and it has some fat. In the first movement, at roughly 6' and 15', I started tiring of the primary thematic material, which is incredibly repetitive and doesn't seem to develop much. But each time, Mahler saves the movement: first with that spectacular nocturnal interlude (a little overlong maybe, but pure magic, and honestly evocative of Richard Strauss at his most expressionist), and then with the big whomp of an ending. The second and third movements immediately jump onto the list of my favorite Mahler movements and moments. What an awesome awesome rondo full of cool ideas Nachtmusik I is. Nonstop fun, and the same goes for the scherzo. Hearing the extremely loud, fierce NYPO tuba, I wondered if that's where Revueltas got the idea for Sensemayá. The viola solo is great.

Nachtmusik II is the hardest for me to process. It's labeled "Andante amoroso," which got me prepared for a romantic nighttime serenade a la Berlioz' love scene from R&J. But no, this is a weird, stuttering serenade, where the romantic warmth I was expecting is only heard two or three times in 15 minutes. Otherwise, it sort of fumbles around. I also didn't like most of the mandolin part (which in this recording sounds more like a zither? huh). I like lots of strumming and sustained notes, which Mahler's mandolin occasionally does, but mostly it plucks along single notes with the orchestra, which feels like misuse/underuse. If I was Christopher Walken, I would say this piece has enough cowbell...but needs more mandolin!

The finale absolutely rules. Mahler always favors bizarre finale structures, whether they're a half-hour long with choir, or a slow movement, or a non-finale song, or bear the weight of the whole symphony's architecture. To me, this is the most successful Mahler finale that could be construed as "normal"-ish. Of course, it is far from normal. But it's a freaking delight. I heard so much stuff, too; it's kind of like a jubilee carnival run by an antiques dealer showing you all the stuff he's collected over the years. The tuning of the timpani reminded me of Renaissance dances. The winds reminded me of his Third. There's a startling Turkish passage that I must say is vastly more Turkish and more convincing than any faux-Turkish music written by any classical composer prior to that point. There are loads of jokes. And the ending, which apparently is controversial??, is absolutely 100% perfect. Immediately made sense to me. The finale absolutely made me grin.

I could have probably lost 3-4 minutes of the first movement and half of Nachtmusik II, but for a very first listen to a humongous and complex piece, this was a total success and a delight. What fun! All that remains to add is that Bernstein, for all his reputation as an emotional/histrionic Mahler conductor, is actually a very clear guide to the score. It's obvious that this is a piece where the conductor can screw up a lot of different stuff. You could hear a balance issue or phrasing choice every 5 seconds. And then there's the structure as a whole, which is enormous and has all sorts of digressions, sidebars, interludes, rondo episodes, repetitions, etc. etc. I can imagine a lot of conductors and orchestras get completely lost. The care that was lavished on this recording session is obvious. Amazing performance.

Woohoo!

TLDR: It's the 1812 Overture with cowbells instead of cannons!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on November 28, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
interesting you like the M7 finale so much. Most people don't.

If you want to give another look at Mahler 7, try the Xmas matinee with Haitink and the Concertgebouw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEoYrRBAGqA&t=4506s
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on November 28, 2022, 01:52:52 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AMYesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

I've got one negative thought that might get me in trouble, and then a bunch of positive ones. Negative one first: this piece does in large measure sound derivative of previous Mahler works. People cite Shostakovich as an example of a composer with a "samey" or unchanging sound world, but Mahler's is too: his orchestration has tics (like screeching high clarinets), his harmonies exist in a certain narrow spectrum a lot of the time, and even his melodies share shapes (he has favorite intervals). Listening to 5, 6, and 7, I get the impression that melodic inspiration became more challenging for him after the initial song-cycle wellspring dried up. There are memorable tunes in each, but also many tunes that seem derived from the youthful collections.

The first movement reminded me a lot of the first few minutes of the Third: the march rhythms, gloomy mood, turbulence. The second movement reminded me of the Third's first movement even more, and I heard quotes from the same movement in the finale, too. Now, the good thing is I love the first movement of the Third, so this was a major plus for me.

This is a big, shaggy symphony, and it has some fat. In the first movement, at roughly 6' and 15', I started tiring of the primary thematic material, which is incredibly repetitive and doesn't seem to develop much. But each time, Mahler saves the movement: first with that spectacular nocturnal interlude (a little overlong maybe, but pure magic, and honestly evocative of Richard Strauss at his most expressionist), and then with the big whomp of an ending. The second and third movements immediately jump onto the list of my favorite Mahler movements and moments. What an awesome awesome rondo full of cool ideas Nachtmusik I is. Nonstop fun, and the same goes for the scherzo. Hearing the extremely loud, fierce NYPO tuba, I wondered if that's where Revueltas got the idea for Sensemayá. The viola solo is great.

Nachtmusik II is the hardest for me to process. It's labeled "Andante amoroso," which got me prepared for a romantic nighttime serenade a la Berlioz' love scene from R&J. But no, this is a weird, stuttering serenade, where the romantic warmth I was expecting is only heard two or three times in 15 minutes. Otherwise, it sort of fumbles around. I also didn't like most of the mandolin part (which in this recording sounds more like a zither? huh). I like lots of strumming and sustained notes, which Mahler's mandolin occasionally does, but mostly it plucks along single notes with the orchestra, which feels like misuse/underuse. If I was Christopher Walken, I would say this piece has enough cowbell...but needs more mandolin!

The finale absolutely rules. Mahler always favors bizarre finale structures, whether they're a half-hour long with choir, or a slow movement, or a non-finale song, or bear the weight of the whole symphony's architecture. To me, this is the most successful Mahler finale that could be construed as "normal"-ish. Of course, it is far from normal. But it's a freaking delight. I heard so much stuff, too; it's kind of like a jubilee carnival run by an antiques dealer showing you all the stuff he's collected over the years. The tuning of the timpani reminded me of Renaissance dances. The winds reminded me of his Third. There's a startling Turkish passage that I must say is vastly more Turkish and more convincing than any faux-Turkish music written by any classical composer prior to that point. There are loads of jokes. And the ending, which apparently is controversial??, is absolutely 100% perfect. Immediately made sense to me. The finale absolutely made me grin.

I could have probably lost 3-4 minutes of the first movement and half of Nachtmusik II, but for a very first listen to a humongous and complex piece, this was a total success and a delight. What fun! All that remains to add is that Bernstein, for all his reputation as an emotional/histrionic Mahler conductor, is actually a very clear guide to the score. It's obvious that this is a piece where the conductor can screw up a lot of different stuff. You could hear a balance issue or phrasing choice every 5 seconds. And then there's the structure as a whole, which is enormous and has all sorts of digressions, sidebars, interludes, rondo episodes, repetitions, etc. etc. I can imagine a lot of conductors and orchestras get completely lost. The care that was lavished on this recording session is obvious. Amazing performance.

Woohoo!

TLDR: It's the 1812 Overture with cowbells instead of cannons!

Thanks for sharing your impressions on the 7th. In my mind the 7th has a stylistic simularity with the 5th through 7th symphonies (although the 3rd symphony does seem to find it's way to the first movement of the 7th).

The 8th seems to hark back to symphonies 2 through 4. The 9th seems it's own world yet it's definitely Mahler's style.

A poster on the Mahler board says the finale of the 7th throws us into the lap of the 8th Symphony and I agree!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Todd on November 28, 2022, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AMYesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

Wow, first time.  Lucky you. 

I suggest Barenboim's recording as a possible follow-up.  He smites all comers, even Lenny.  Sonics are spiffy.  This symphony is very performance dependent for me - in contrast to the First, which typically sounds at least enjoyable - and some conductors whiff big time. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on November 28, 2022, 06:30:16 PM
My favorite Seventh is Abbado/BPO. But Haitink and Barenboim aren't bad choices.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mapman on November 28, 2022, 08:00:48 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AMYesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

I mostly agree with your assessment of Mahler's 7th. When I listened to it for the first time, I also noticed the stylistic similarities to the 3rd symphony. (And that was my first recording, too)

The 2nd movement may be my favorite of the symphony. I sometimes think of the opening as like a "ballet of giant insects".

When I saw the Berliner Philharmoniker perform the 7th recently, I was particularly impressed with their performance of the 4th movement. I think that part of it was that I could hear the mandolin (and guitar) well. (They also played beautifully!)

And the finale is a lot of fun!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 28, 2022, 09:28:17 PM
I wouldn't say the Mahler invented a new composition technique for each symphony, there is stylistic development as well as common mannerisms running through my favorite works, the 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, although the 9th is more of a departure. The 7th recently became a favorite, perhaps second after the 9th, after listening to Vaclav Neumann's recording with the Czech Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on November 29, 2022, 12:31:38 AM
Where are "screeching high clarinets"? Clarinets in Mahler are often playing folksy passages but they rarely are high or screeching, more "bubbling" in the main/middle register and it's mostly ordinary A/B clarinet not the higher E flat clarinet. There is that brief solo at the beginning of the 5th finale that goes up fairly but I don't recall anything as screeching as the witch sabbat variant of the idee fixe in Berlioz.

It's true that Mahler often uses "stock motives", mostly marches and laendler/waltz-like ones (or occasionally chorales or grazioso menuets) but this seems a feature, not a bug and as common in the first 3-4 symphonies (and many songs, especially Wunderhorn collection) as in the later ones.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on December 12, 2022, 06:26:29 AM
Mr. Hurwitz is excited about the recently released Ninth with Rattle conducting the BRSO, recorded live.

I haven't done more than skim through portions of the first movement, but I heard some things I liked, and also a few I'm not sure about.

Here's Movt. 1:

https://youtu.be/YuAd-PrWoJQ
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 12, 2022, 09:47:22 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AMYesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

It's about escape from light. It's about opera, Italian (middle movements) and German (finale)... and thus closely tied to Mahler's experiences at the Hofoper. I'll post some thoughts on the structure of this weirdo later, but now I am summoned to play QUIXX.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on December 12, 2022, 11:33:00 AM
Thanks to all for your comments about M7. Even though I didn't reply immediately, I read and appreciated. I just got the Kubelik cycle (part of the DG Big Box of his complete recordings for them), and hear his Seventh may to be my liking. The general praise for Barenboim, here and in other reviews, has me planning to purchase it on CD (not available to stream on Qobuz, and this is a piece where one likes to revel in the "spiffy" sound). Looking forward to your thoughts, Jens.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on December 12, 2022, 11:31:08 PM
Kubelik is very "natural", IIRC. Main drawback today probably average ca. 1970 sound. For a very different take of the 7th and wild ride, try Kondrashin (totally hysterical Russian brass in the finale). There are one or two live recordings that are supposedly superior (or less extreme?) than the Melodiya but I only know the last one.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2022, 02:05:53 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 12, 2022, 09:47:22 AMIt's about escape from light. It's about opera, Italian (middle movements) and German (finale)... and thus closely tied to Mahler's experiences at the Hofoper. I'll post some thoughts on the structure of this weirdo later, but now I am summoned to play QUIXX.

There's the Mahler Survey, of course...

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-57McH6hs5nE/UgFVJPqPlHI/AAAAAAAAG50/AfAQByeceGY/s1600/Mahler_Lindloff_laurson_600.jpg)
https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html)


(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QnWfBqThoCg/UgIActELhZI/AAAAAAAAG6s/R-YGBN7peLA/s1600/Mahler_NY_Street_laurson_600.jpg)
https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html)

Sometimes I look back on my life as if it had been someone else's. In 2011, dirt-poor (but wise to leveraging the little I had, in position, I set out to better understand the Mahler 7th Symphony and travelled to Amsterdam and Leipzig (and went to a concert at my doorstep in Munich) to hear the work trice within a few months, once with Boulez, once with Haitink, and once with Nezet-Seguin. The latter was the time when I began to understand the 7th a little: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-nezet-seguin.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-nezet-seguin.html)

I then grasped M7 less incompletely, when I had a talk about it with Roberto Abbado, who pointed all the Italian Opera references out to me.

And recently I wrote a brief bit about it how it's really the "Chiaroscuro" Symphony of Mahler's. But that's in German and I have to look for the file. But that makes the Tristan relation even more obvious.

I've always thought that if you could use Barenboim's 1st movement, Abbado/Berlin's Nachtmusiken, Levine's Scherzo, and Boulez' Finale, you'd have your perfect 7th.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on December 13, 2022, 04:14:38 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2022, 02:05:53 AMI've always thought that if you could use Barenboim's 1st movement, Abbado/Berlin's Nachtmusiken, Levine's Scherzo, and Boulez' Finale, you'd have your perfect 7th.

Or you could listen to Vaclav Neumann. :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 13, 2022, 04:37:48 AM
I picked up this Decca twofer recently;

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/t4TX3QbV7kQ/maxresdefault.jpg)

For sure its a pair of exciting even virile performances from the young Mehta.  Very typical of his Decca recordings in the 70's in Los Angeles and Vienna (as well as his operas in the UK).  No.1 is very driven and extreme - exciting if a bit superficial - but well played.  Didn't pay much for this pair of discs so happy to have added them to the collection.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on December 13, 2022, 05:28:41 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 13, 2022, 04:37:48 AMI picked up this Decca twofer recently;

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/t4TX3QbV7kQ/maxresdefault.jpg)

For sure its a pair of exciting even virile performances from the young Mehta.  Very typical of his Decca recordings in the 70's in Los Angeles and Vienna (as well as his operas in the UK).  No.1 is very driven and extreme - exciting if a bit superficial - but well played.  Didn't pay much for this pair of discs so happy to have added them to the collection.

I love his Symphony No. 5 which is with LA Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on December 13, 2022, 06:01:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 12, 2022, 11:31:08 PMKubelik is very "natural", IIRC. Main drawback today probably average ca. 1970 sound. For a very different take of the 7th and wild ride, try Kondrashin (totally hysterical Russian brass in the finale). There are one or two live recordings that are supposedly superior (or less extreme?) than the Melodiya but I only know the last one.
I've heard the Kondrashin Concertgebouw live recording is absolutely crazy and very extreme, on Tahra.

Quote from: relm1 on December 13, 2022, 05:28:41 AMI love his Symphony No. 5 which is with LA Philharmonic.
This is as close as I've gotten to understanding the Fifth, which seems to be a disconnected suite of different ideas to me. But the Mehta/LA recording makes all five individual parts sound really great.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on December 13, 2022, 06:07:45 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2022, 02:05:53 AMThere's the Mahler Survey, of course...

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-57McH6hs5nE/UgFVJPqPlHI/AAAAAAAAG50/AfAQByeceGY/s1600/Mahler_Lindloff_laurson_600.jpg)
https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html)


(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QnWfBqThoCg/UgIActELhZI/AAAAAAAAG6s/R-YGBN7peLA/s1600/Mahler_NY_Street_laurson_600.jpg)
https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html)

One thing I appreciate about your survey is that you collate not just your own wisdom and experience, but that of others. Next time, I'll listen out for the passages that Salonen complained were painfully banal.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on December 13, 2022, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 13, 2022, 06:01:23 AMI've heard the Kondrashin Concertgebouw live recording is absolutely crazy and very extreme, on Tahra.
This is as close as I've gotten to understanding the Fifth, which seems to be a disconnected suite of different ideas to me. But the Mehta/LA recording makes all five individual parts sound really great.

I appreciate why you could think that about No. 5 but suggest you approach it differently.  It's a work in three movements (or sections):

First is the funeral (the first three movements) lasting around 45 minutes though the third movement is more playful. 
Last movement is the triumphant about 15 minutes.
And the fourth movement is the somewhat oddball Adagietto around 11 minutes

The last movement is a rondo that brings back all previous ideas but transforms them into a boisterous finale, much like Beethoven would do.  This is an example of connective tissue but ideas and how I would argue, not a suite, but a traditional Beethoven symphony but through the eyes/ears of Mahler.  Something so important with Mahler is how he delves into the subtext - not just about a folk song or klezmer music but what that meant for him personally.  Have you seen the 1971 movie, Fiddler on the Roof?  I saw that for the first time only a few months ago.  But to me, that is the key to Mahler.  First, you have a guy constantly singing "Tradition!!!!!!!" but as the story progresses, the motif takes on very, very different meanings.  Sometimes happy, sometimes sad, sometimes philosophical, etc.  He's unsure what it even means.  Is it even worth anything?  What if we keep fully the tradition and lose everything?  This is Mahler's 5.  So, you might hear this as a mishmash of joy, despair, hope, hate, sadness, love, whatever, but there is a throughline. 

With Mahler, that's the "fate" motif that starts this symphony.  This darkness is heard throughout but takes on different meanings as the work progresses.  If you listen to this on the surface, you'll hear random musical elements, but the point is the narrative that connects them throughout. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on January 17, 2023, 10:59:29 AM
Thank you for that post. I really will have it open and re-read before listening to the Fifth again.

-

I know I said I would listen to Barenboim or Kubelik next, but could not resist trying this on streaming:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ob/60/kysyml2bf60ob_600.jpg)

Very glad I gave it a try. Obviously this is only my second listen to the work so you should not trust me as an expert, but goodness, what an incredible orchestral performance. The divided violins' parts in the scherzo whiplash from left to right channel with amazing speed. The strings lean hard into glissandi. The woodwinds have tons of character, especially the snappy, savage bassoons. Bloch has his players commit everything to every moment: no holding back, no being tasteful, no saving energy for the next movement. Pizzicato strings feel like you're being hit by darts.

It reminds me of Jens' quote of Bruno Walter as saying that conductors should be unafraid to be vulgar in Mahler. This is an incredibly vulgar, "loud" (in the metaphorical sense) performance, full of detail and color and absurdity. The scherzo is mind-boggling. The mandolin is not spotlit at all in Nachtmusik II, which I appreciate. (In general, the sound is incredible, offering a clear orchestral picture while allowing every single instrument to shine independently. It is the kind of recorded sound [not artistic sound!] I associate with late Boulez DG stuff.) My only critique on the madcap finale, which is very silly and clearly enunciated at all times, is that the "Turkish" stuff is not sufficiently Turkish.

What a sumptuous treat. The first movement of the symphony still leaves me a little tired, and I can hear some of the banality Salonen hears in the second. But man...I think I love this!

Rough timings of the Bloch reading 21 / 15 / 10 / 11 / 17 = 74.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on January 21, 2023, 07:09:32 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2023, 10:59:29 AMThank you for that post. I really will have it open and re-read before listening to the Fifth again.

-

I know I said I would listen to Barenboim or Kubelik next, but could not resist trying this on streaming:

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ob/60/kysyml2bf60ob_600.jpg)

Very glad I gave it a try. Obviously this is only my second listen to the work so you should not trust me as an expert, but goodness, what an incredible orchestral performance. The divided violins' parts in the scherzo whiplash from left to right channel with amazing speed. The strings lean hard into glissandi. The woodwinds have tons of character, especially the snappy, savage bassoons. Bloch has his players commit everything to every moment: no holding back, no being tasteful, no saving energy for the next movement. Pizzicato strings feel like you're being hit by darts.

It reminds me of Jens' quote of Bruno Walter as saying that conductors should be unafraid to be vulgar in Mahler. This is an incredibly vulgar, "loud" (in the metaphorical sense) performance, full of detail and color and absurdity. The scherzo is mind-boggling. The mandolin is not spotlit at all in Nachtmusik II, which I appreciate. (In general, the sound is incredible, offering a clear orchestral picture while allowing every single instrument to shine independently. It is the kind of recorded sound [not artistic sound!] I associate with late Boulez DG stuff.) My only critique on the madcap finale, which is very silly and clearly enunciated at all times, is that the "Turkish" stuff is not sufficiently Turkish.

What a sumptuous treat. The first movement of the symphony still leaves me a little tired, and I can hear some of the banality Salonen hears in the second. But man...I think I love this!

Rough timings of the Bloch reading 21 / 15 / 10 / 11 / 17 = 74.

Great review, Brian! I will certainly give it a try.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vandermolen on January 21, 2023, 12:01:38 PM
My brother's going to hear the 5th Symphony in London (tomorrow night I think).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on January 21, 2023, 04:48:40 PM
I can't think of any concert experience that surpasses Mahler done well. Hopefully, your brother will have such an experience.  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mahlerbruck on January 26, 2023, 05:34:54 AM
One of my favourite early Mahler conductors is Hans Rosbaud.

A few year's ago this in my opinion great Boxset was released.


(https://i.postimg.cc/tCkygQqf/IMG-20220505-130913.jpg)

If you're not already familiar with his Mahler performances, I would strongly recommend you check them out.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on January 26, 2023, 04:37:59 PM
One thing I've been struggling with, I've read the book "Mahler's letters to his wife (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/4155YbP9NfL._AC_SY780_.jpg)". and it paints a different picture of Mahler than the narrative of him being terribly morose and manic.  I think there is a false narrative that he was a manic, negative, depressed man.  Part of me believes his persona was based on Alma's exploitation on the Mahler myth.  Much of his letters including the last ones were very mundane.  Talk about getting paid for a gig, frustrations over a bad review, lots of performance notes (wrong notes, etc), tons of adulations for Alma (from August 1910, "Fairest, dearest one, my lyre...you wonderous thing, what music could I write whose words conveyed to you my mortal plight?"  There is practically no existential dread.  This is very important because he had already completed Das Lied von der Erde and Symphony No. 9 and was working on his final Symphony No. 10.  The reason why this narrative is so important is because he was in a horrible state of mind.  We have his letters to Alma to prove this.  He was glowing with adoration in his final moments.  He was not morose.  He was had no existential dread.  He had eternal love and admiration and his final letters and music prove that.  That's why I strongly believe Symphony No. 10 must be heard in its entirety.  It really must be considered canon.  Otherwise, I would argue, one doesn't truly grasp Mahler. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Herman on January 30, 2023, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2023, 04:37:59 PMThe reason why this narrative is so important is because he was in a horrible state of mind.  We have his letters to Alma to prove this.  He was glowing with adoration in his final moments.  He was not morose.  He was had no existential dread.  He had eternal love and admiration and his final letters and music prove that.

People can be of two minds at the same time.
Also, his glowing adoration for Alma in his letters may be a way to soothe or conquer his fear of her unfaithfulness, a fear which in Mahler's case may at times have had existential dimensions.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on January 30, 2023, 02:52:20 PM
Yeah. I think that Mahler is one of those composers where people have fallen into the trap of wanting to relate everything in the music to personal circumstances.

It's part of a belief system where music is portrayed as being about baring the artist's soul. Which I'm sure music CAN do, but thinking of it in that way ignores all the craft involved, and the fact that composing something can actually take a long period of time during which circumstances change.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on January 30, 2023, 06:50:15 PM
Quote from: Mahlerbruck on January 26, 2023, 05:34:54 AMOne of my favourite early Mahler conductors is Hans Rosbaud.

A few year's ago this in my opinion great Boxset was released.


(https://i.postimg.cc/tCkygQqf/IMG-20220505-130913.jpg)

If you're not already familiar with his Mahler performances, I would strongly recommend you check them out.

I meant to thank you when you posted this. Wasn't aware of his Mahler, and I like the handful of other things, I've heard from him.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Florestan on February 07, 2023, 10:57:03 AM
Quote from: Madiel on January 30, 2023, 02:52:20 PMIt's part of a belief system where music is portrayed as being about baring the artist's soul.

A mostly misguided notion inherited from Romanticism.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on February 07, 2023, 11:56:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on February 07, 2023, 10:57:03 AMA mostly misguided notion inherited from Romanticism.
O ciel, che noia!  ;D

Good evening to you, Andrei, my friend.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 20, 2023, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2023, 04:37:59 PMOne thing I've been struggling with, I've read the book "Mahler's letters to his wife (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/4155YbP9NfL._AC_SY780_.jpg)". and it paints a different picture of Mahler than the narrative of him being terribly morose and manic.  I think there is a false narrative that he was a manic, negative, depressed man.  Part of me believes his persona was based on Alma's exploitation on the Mahler myth.  Much of his letters including the last ones were very mundane.  Talk about getting paid for a gig, frustrations over a bad review, lots of performance notes (wrong notes, etc), tons of adulations for Alma (from August 1910, "Fairest, dearest one, my lyre...you wonderous thing, what music could I write whose words conveyed to you my mortal plight?"  There is practically no existential dread.  This is very important because he had already completed Das Lied von der Erde and Symphony No. 9 and was working on his final Symphony No. 10.  The reason why this narrative is so important is because he was in a horrible state of mind.  We have his letters to Alma to prove this.  He was gloving with adoration in his final moments.  He was not morose.  He was had no existential dread.  He had eternal love and admiration and his final letters and music prove that.  That's why I strongly believe Symphony No. 10 must be heard in its entirety.  It should be considered canon.

Amen!

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on February 24, 2023, 04:05:42 PM
Sort of a PSA...

While I'm no fan of Hurwitz for the most part, today he's done a good thing:

https://youtu.be/ZKMOeS1iNJE

Here's the link to the pertinent page at Tower Japan, there's an option for English on the page. I know it look's long and funky, but it works for me:

https://tower.jp/item/4292732/%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC%EF%BC%9A-%E4%BA%A4%E9%9F%BF%E6%9B%B2%E9%9B%86~%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BB%E3%83%9E%E3%83%81%E3%83%8D%E3%83%BB%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B4(%E7%AC%AC1%E7%95%AA-%E7%AC%AC5%E7%95%AA,-%E7%AC%AC7%E7%95%AA,-%E7%AC%AC9%E7%95%AA),-%E4%BB%96%EF%BC%9C%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%EF%BC%9E

;)

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on February 24, 2023, 04:20:44 PM
Hmm, that's under $50 before any taxes and shipping is added, isn't it?
Tempting.
(And of course I just firmly decided that this Neumann/Czech cycle is the last Mahler set I will get.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 25, 2023, 08:36:09 AM
Yes that set is really good.  I found about it from MI.  I think you might be able to find some of the performances on youtube, if you don't like blind buying.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on February 26, 2023, 02:12:24 PM
Quote from: Mahlerbruck on January 26, 2023, 05:34:54 AMOne of my favourite early Mahler conductors is Hans Rosbaud.

A few year's ago this in my opinion great Boxset was released.


(https://i.postimg.cc/tCkygQqf/IMG-20220505-130913.jpg)

If you're not already familiar with his Mahler performances, I would strongly recommend you check them out.
I agree Rosbaud is a great Mahlerian interpreter, his recordings are excellent for intensity, expressiveness of the orchestral tones, instrumental balance and meticulousness about the construction of the scores; the performance of Das Lied von der Erde of that set is outstanding, one of the best I've listened so far. The only aspect of his Mahler I have reservations about is the choices of the tempi, in the faster sections I think they are a bit too retained, soft, while they work splendidly in the slower ones, so compelling .
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on March 19, 2023, 03:26:02 PM
After not hearing any Mahler for maybe 3-4 months, found this spectacular version of the Sixth, recorded in October 2018, with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony and Andrés Orozco-Estrada.

You hear a performance like this and think, "Well, maybe No. 6 is the greatest of them all."


-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 04:34:12 PM
I have recently fallen in love with Mahler 4.  So beautiful.  At times it feels like a ballet.  I will confess it gets dwarfed somewhat by its siblings but what are your favorite recordings of this work?  It is a very fine work and I hear echos of it in his late symphonies.  It is the BRIDGE between young and old Mahler and shouldn't be dismissed because of its relatively modest scale.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on March 27, 2023, 04:38:42 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 04:34:12 PMI have recently fallen in love with Mahler 4.  So beautiful.  At times it feels like a ballet.  I will confess it gets dwarfed somewhat by its siblings but what are your favorite recordings of this work?  It is a very fine work and I hear echos of it in his late symphonies. 

The 4th was the work that hooked me on Mahler and is still my favorite Mahler symphony. A few of the recordings I love are the Bernstein/New York with Reri Grist, the Szell/Cleveland with Judith Raskin, and the Maazel/Vienna with Kathleen Battle.

(https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music128/v4/7e/b4/67/7eb4676a-44aa-5107-9f43-eebfe9767220/886443110113.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81SMW8j0rGL._SL1500_.jpg)(https://is2-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Features/v4/aa/c4/3f/aac43fd1-fa18-199c-d83a-4f43d2efba68/dj.lsywbryd.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on March 27, 2023, 06:10:25 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 04:34:12 PMI have recently fallen in love with Mahler 4.  So beautiful.  At times it feels like a ballet.  I will confess it gets dwarfed somewhat by its siblings but what are your favorite recordings of this work?  It is a very fine work and I hear echos of it in his late symphonies.  It is the BRIDGE between young and old Mahler and shouldn't be dismissed because of its relatively modest scale.

The Fourth is so lovely. Sometimes it seems the most "pastoral" of all—still with high contrasts and drama, but not as much as some of the others. The Adagio is one of my favorite of all of his slow movements, which is saying something, considering the Andante of the Sixth, the finale of No. 3, and of course, the end of the Ninth.

I like all three of the recordings @vers la flamme mentioned, with perhaps a slight nod to the Clevelanders.

A favorite live performance: a few years ago at Carnegie Hall, with Rattle, Berlin, and Magdalena Kožená as the soloist in the finale. It was interesting enough to write about:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2006/Jan-Jun06/bpo2601.htm

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mapman on March 27, 2023, 06:14:25 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 27, 2023, 04:38:42 PMThe 4th was the work that hooked me on Mahler and is still my favorite Mahler symphony. A few of the recordings I love are the Bernstein/New York with Reri Grist, the Szell/Cleveland with Judith Raskin, and the Maazel/Vienna with Kathleen Battle.

(https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music128/v4/7e/b4/67/7eb4676a-44aa-5107-9f43-eebfe9767220/886443110113.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81SMW8j0rGL._SL1500_.jpg)(https://is2-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Features/v4/aa/c4/3f/aac43fd1-fa18-199c-d83a-4f43d2efba68/dj.lsywbryd.jpg/1200x1200bf-60.jpg)

I also like the Bernstein and Szell.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on March 28, 2023, 01:42:57 AM
Along with the classic recordings mentioned above I would add Kletzki/Philharmonia, available in various EMI incarnations:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T2/images/I/41AXxvADXXS._AC_.jpg)
Mahler 4, Paul Ketzki

I agree about the slow movement by the way - absolutely Mahler's best.

Among recent recordings, I am usually a big fan of the work of Roth/Les Siecles, but I find this is one of their least successful recordings.  Vanska/Minnesota is pretty good.
I would though especially mention and recommend the SWR video stream from early 2019 of Mahler's 4th conducted by Currentzis which is a very fine performance and fascinating to watch.  (I'm aware Currentzis seems to be persona non grata in some circles.)
Mahler 4 Currentzis/SWRSO (https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symphonieorchester/av-o1098811-100.html)
This is a complete concert and the Symphony starts around 36 minutes in. 
Can also be found on YouTube I think, but this SWR stream is likely to have better sound.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: foxandpeng on March 28, 2023, 08:09:57 AM
Thumbs up for Mahler 4, maybe with Osmo Vanska?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Papy Oli on March 28, 2023, 08:25:57 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2023, 04:34:12 PMI have recently fallen in love with Mahler 4.  So beautiful.  At times it feels like a ballet.  I will confess it gets dwarfed somewhat by its siblings but what are your favorite recordings of this work?  It is a very fine work and I hear echos of it in his late symphonies.  It is the BRIDGE between young and old Mahler and shouldn't be dismissed because of its relatively modest scale.

I am very fond of this one (Reiner / Della Casa):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/81dalChvTQL._AC_SY355_.jpg)

Welser-Most / Lott  is odder as it feels much slower than normal but still works (from memory) :

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/61P-kuu4VeL._AC_SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on March 28, 2023, 02:27:52 PM
Bernstein/Grist was my imprint for M4, and l still enjoy the recording.

Over the last 40 years I've also reacted positively to Haitink/Ameling, Reiner/DC and ( rather surprisingly ) von Karajan/Mathis.

I need to hear Tennstedt's again, l believe Lucia Popp was his soprano.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on March 28, 2023, 03:11:53 PM
I too love the Reiner/Chicago/Della Casa recording, which was the first Mahler 4th I ever heard.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 29, 2023, 04:39:01 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 28, 2023, 08:25:57 AMI am very fond of this one (Reiner / Della Casa):

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/81dalChvTQL._AC_SY355_.jpg)

Welser-Most / Lott  is odder as it feels much slower than normal but still works (from memory) :

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/61P-kuu4VeL._AC_SY355_.jpg)

Wasn't the Welser-Most literally his first recording made as a young conductor?  And wasn't it this that prompted the LPO to appoint him to a fairly short and ill-fated principal conductorship?  To be fair he has gone onto far better and greater things so really a case of being just too soon for him in that leadership role.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 04:00:59 AM
Need recommendations for Symphonies No. 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9 that are intense, vigorous, helter-skelter, go for broke and in good sound (available on Spotify too.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on April 17, 2023, 06:13:21 AM
Quote from: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 04:00:59 AMNeed recommendations for Symphonies No. 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9 that are intense, vigorous, helter-skelter, go for broke and in good sound (available on Spotify too.)

No. 1, Concertgebouw Orchestra, Bernstein and Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Nézet-Séguin
No. 2, New York, Bernstein but I prefer his 1960's recording for it's more vigor and fire.
No. 5, I love Zubin Mehta's LA Phil
No. 6, Bernstein (1960's preferred but either 60's or 80's are great) - one has more vigor and intensity, the other more grandeur and gravitas. 
No. 9, I love the Bernstein/Concertgebouw on DG since it sounds like you don't mind heavy handed.  von Karajan (1982) is great too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 17, 2023, 06:28:13 AM
Quote from: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 04:00:59 AMNeed recommendations for Symphonies No. 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9 that are intense, vigorous, helter-skelter, go for broke and in good sound (available on Spotify too.)

1. Solti
2. Mehta
5. Bernstein (DG)
6. Sanderling
9. Chailly
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 07:18:33 AM
Any thoughts on the Petrenko BPO Sixth? I'm curious how he does this stuff with BPO as generally speaking he's better suited to Romantic music than Rattle.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on April 17, 2023, 09:32:24 AM
Quote from: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 07:18:33 AMAny thoughts on the Petrenko BPO Sixth? I'm curious how he does this stuff with BPO as generally speaking he's better suited to Romantic music than Rattle.
I listened to Petrenko's Mahler 6 just once on spotify, but it sounded very fine to me; the orchestra had great intensity and energy, but also lyricism, and in particular, percussion was incredibly thunderous (well, no great suprise as it is the Berliner Philharmoniker, which also showed a clear, detailed sound). He reversed the order of the Scherzo (placed third) and the Andante moderato (placed second), but that wasn't a problem to enjoy the recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 17, 2023, 03:53:19 PM
Quote from: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 04:00:59 AMNeed recommendations for Symphonies No. 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9 that are intense, vigorous, helter-skelter, go for broke and in good sound (available on Spotify too.)


1 - Pierre Boulez DGG, Rafael Kubelik DGG

2 - Eugene Ormandy RCA, Rafael Kubelik DGG

5 - Leopold Ludwig EVEREST, Pierre Boulez DGG

6 - Rafael Kubelik DGG, Leonard Bernstein COLUMBIA/SONY, Pierre Boulez DGG

9 - Leopold Ludwig EVEREST, George Szell Various Labels, 1968, Herbert Von Karajan DGG

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on April 17, 2023, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 17, 2023, 06:28:13 AM1. Solti
2. Mehta
5. Bernstein (DG)
6. Sanderling
9. Chailly

Oh wait got to change that 9th, how could I forget the most intense 9th is Ancerl!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on April 17, 2023, 05:14:26 PM
For the Sixth, I'd suggest Haitink/Chicago (on CSO Resound)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 11:04:48 PM
Any thoughts on the recent Bychkov Mahler discs? Are these high voltage performances or more "stately"?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on April 18, 2023, 01:46:00 AM
I would respectfully suggest that folks recommending von Karajan for the Ninth might want to specify the live 1982 recording, since the earlier studio analogue effort is still available.

Otherwise, imho anyone looking for intensity etc. need go no further than Bernstein.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DaveF on April 18, 2023, 02:17:21 AM
Quote from: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 04:00:59 AMNeed recommendations for Symphonies No. 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9 that are intense, vigorous, helter-skelter, go for broke and in good sound (available on Spotify too.)

I wouldn't particularly recommend Chailly in no.6, but he's worth a listen for the most earth-shattering hammer-blows in the finale (unless anyone else knows different...)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on April 18, 2023, 03:19:43 AM
1. Walter or Kubelik/DG, the latter has better sound but still not particularly great sound. I don't like any other as much, despite sometimes better sound.
2. Probably Mehta for combination of performance+sound
5. Bernstein/DG, Solti/Decca for combination of performance+sound
6. Bernstein/DG, Solti/Decca for combination of performance+sound, Kondrashin/Melodiya (ferocious in decent Soviet sound)
Edit: I skipped #9 because favorites are either in dated sound (Klemperer, Maderna) or in good sound but not fiery (Gielen)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Cato on April 18, 2023, 05:20:56 AM
Quote from: lordlance on April 17, 2023, 11:04:48 PMAny thoughts on the recent Bychkov Mahler discs? Are these high voltage performances or more "stately"?


No idea, but here is a taste:

https://www.semyonbychkov.com/featured-releases/ (https://www.semyonbychkov.com/featured-releases/)


And from 1998:

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: lordlance on April 18, 2023, 06:54:14 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 17, 2023, 09:32:24 AMI listened to Petrenko's Mahler 6 just once on spotify, but it sounded very fine to me; the orchestra had great intensity and energy, but also lyricism, and in particular, percussion was incredibly thunderous (well, no great suprise as it is the Berliner Philharmoniker, which also showed a clear, detailed sound). He reversed the order of the Scherzo (placed third) and the Andante moderato (placed second), but that wasn't a problem to enjoy the recording.

It is not a problem indeed as one can restore it back to Scherzo-Andante. From your description it sounds like it was a good, maybe great, concert that doesn't stand up to the competition.

Quote from: LKB on April 18, 2023, 01:46:00 AMI would respectfully suggest that folks recommending von Karajan for the Ninth might want to specify the live 1982 recording, since the earlier studio analogue effort is still available.

No worries. I know Karajan's remake is universally considered the better of the two records.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on April 18, 2023, 05:48:46 PM
Quote from: LKB on April 18, 2023, 01:46:00 AMI would respectfully suggest that folks recommending von Karajan for the Ninth might want to specify the live 1982 recording, since the earlier studio analogue effort is still available.

I prefer the studio recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 07, 2023, 11:05:45 PM
I've been listening to the 2007 recording of Das Lied sung in Cantonese.

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk2MTAwMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0ODIyMzUwMTB9)

Someone earlier on this thread criticised the recording claiming that it was a poor performance and the words sung 'weren't Cantonese'. (Though this is from memory as I can't find the post again).

As far I can hear this is a pretty good performance from an orchestra that presumably doesn't play much Mahler (and Das Lied is one of the most difficult works in the repertoire). However the recording is very flat, and even boosting the volume doesn't improve it much. The tenor tries very hard and some of his performance is thrilling, with a real sense of the work being performed with the original lyrics (Cantonese was chosen as the pronunciation is closer to Tang dynasty court Chinese than modern Mandarin).

However the main problem is the soprano, who has to sing the majority of the words. She belongs to the 'No consonants need apply' Joan Sutherland school of singing where all you hear is an endless procession of vowels. Most of the time she could be singing almost any language, it could almost be the original German mangled. Only in the last five minutes does her diction get clearer and you can hear that it is in fact Cantonese (or at least some Chinese language).

Was this the problem that the original poster was talking about, or is it a problem with the concept of singing the original vocal line to a translation into a tonal language where the contours of the line contradict the tones?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on May 08, 2023, 07:45:52 AM
I have never heard it and don't know any Chinese but the project seems not attractive to me and a bit misguided. AFAIK, Mahler used free translations (in German) of free translations (from Chinese to French). They were so liberal with the sources that it took scholars a lot of work to identify some of the source poems correctly. It's not authentically Chinese but a European fin de siècle idea about old imperial China as a source of a somewhat different but still compatible kind of wisdom and poetry.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on May 08, 2023, 10:53:37 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 08, 2023, 07:45:52 AMI have never heard it and don't know any Chinese but the project seems not attractive to me and a bit misguided. AFAIK, Mahler used free translations (in German) of free translations (from Chinese to French). They were so liberal with the sources that it took scholars a lot of work to identify some of the source poems correctly. It's not authentically Chinese but a European fin de siècle idea about old imperial China as a source of a somewhat different but still compatible kind of wisdom and poetry.

Agreed.

If Mahler had been able to access an authentic source, and if he had possessed enough practical knowledge of Cantonese and its subtleties to employ it when composing, the resulting work would be something significantly different from the work we know.

While the BIS/Shui might have some academic interest, l don't think it should be accepted as a viable interpretation of DLvdE.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Todd on May 08, 2023, 04:04:46 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81S2Z8wzeUL._SY425_.jpg)


It's been a while since I last bought a new - as in new, new - Mahler 4.  Well, here's one.  Now, Jakub Hrůša ain't new to me.  He waves the stick in FPZ's reference recording of Martinu's VCs as well as in Ivo Kahanek's crackerjack recording of PCs by Dvorak and Martinu.  So the dude can accompany the best of 'em - literally.  This here conductor-oriented work is the first where Hrůša's the main draw.  (Kinda - more on that momentarily.)  He doesn't miss a beat.  The entire symphony is perfectly paced, never sluggish and never rushed, and it packs a wallop when it needs to, especially in the Adagio.  This is a pandemic recording, with players more spread out than normal, and perhaps as a result of that, the sound is strikingly transparent, with different blobs o' instruments sounding pristinely clear.  The playing sounds modern day conservatory perfect.  It's not over the top indulgent (though Mahler's music fairly invites that) and it's not wimpy.  It's top notch.  That gets driven home by what turns out to be the co-main draw: Anna Lucia Richter.  Holy smokes!  When she first enters, her lower register has a heft and perfection that immediately made me think of the great Juliane Banse with Boulez - and things get better from there.  Her high notes, just a bit highlighted, perform the vocal equivalent of throwing cold water in the lister's face, grabbing the listener's lapels, and brusquely yet tenderly seducing the listener, all at once.  So pure is her tone, so ridiculously controlled and precise, so captivating, that she almost pulls of an Isabel Bayrakdarian, forcing the listener to scramble to buy gobs of new recordings.  No, I shan't do that.  I shall restrain myself.  I shall daintily sample her Brahms, and only her Brahms.  I swear. 

Hrůša is now a name I shall seek out, and fortunately the ongoing Brahms/Dvorak outings look enticing.  He must record a complete Mahler cycle.  He must.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 09, 2023, 11:00:35 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 08, 2023, 04:04:46 PM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81S2Z8wzeUL._SY425_.jpg)


It's been a while since I last bought a new - as in new, new - Mahler 4.  Well, here's one.  Now, Jakub Hrůša ain't new to me.  He waves the stick in FPZ's reference recording of Martinu's VCs as well as in Ivo Kahanek's crackerjack recording of PCs by Dvorak and Martinu.  So the dude can accompany the best of 'em - literally.  This here conductor-oriented work is the first where Hrůša's the main draw.  (Kinda - more on that momentarily.)  He doesn't miss a beat.  The entire symphony is perfectly paced, never sluggish and never rushed, and it packs a wallop when it needs to, especially in the Adagio.  This is a pandemic recording, with players more spread out than normal, and perhaps as a result of that, the sound is strikingly transparent, with different blobs o' instruments sounding pristinely clear.  The playing sounds modern day conservatory perfect.  It's not over the top indulgent (though Mahler's music fairly invites that) and it's not wimpy.  It's top notch.  That gets driven home by what turns out to be the co-main draw: Anna Lucia Richter.  Holy smokes!  When she first enters, her lower register has a heft and perfection that immediately made me think of the great Juliane Banse with Boulez - and things get better from there.  Her high notes, just a bit highlighted, perform the vocal equivalent of throwing cold water in the lister's face, grabbing the listener's lapels, and brusquely yet tenderly seducing the listener, all at once.  So pure is her tone, so ridiculously controlled and precise, so captivating, that she almost pulls of an Isabel Bayrakdarian, forcing the listener to scramble to buy gobs of new recordings.  No, I shan't do that.  I shall restrain myself.  I shall daintily sample her Brahms, and only her Brahms.  I swear. 

Hrůša is now a name I shall seek out, and fortunately the ongoing Brahms/Dvorak outings look enticing.  He must record a complete Mahler cycle.  He must.

Recently appointed principal conductor of the Royal Opera House Covent Garden - so you are not alone in your admiration!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Todd on May 09, 2023, 03:33:02 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 09, 2023, 11:00:35 AMRecently appointed principal conductor of the Royal Opera House Covent Garden - so you are not alone in your admiration!

Perhaps I will write a letter encouraging all involved to put on a new production of Lulu.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 10, 2023, 06:01:16 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 09, 2023, 03:33:02 PMPerhaps I will write a letter encouraging all involved to put on a new production of Lulu.

yes do - but he doesn't take over until 2025.......
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Todd on May 10, 2023, 07:31:36 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 10, 2023, 06:01:16 AMyes do - but he doesn't take over until 2025.......

I'd count myself lucky if a new production takes place this decade.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on May 18, 2023, 02:57:30 PM
(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/04/27/7mnjyj-mahlersymp-preview-m3.jpg)
(https://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h7636/5097636-origpic-f2e6a3.jpg)

I just listened to these back to back recently, as I'm catching up on my Mahler 9's released the past few years.

Haitink's approach to Mahler's Symphony No. 9 in his (release in 2021?) recording may be characterized as deliberate and measured. The slower tempos perhaps allow for a deep exploration of the emotional nuances within the score. However, I found the slower pace to be overly cautious, potentially diminishing the momentum and intensity that can be found in faster interpretations.

On the other hand, Vanska's 2023 recording presents a more flowing interpretation, but also somewhat "removed" or "cool" sounding with some interesting "shifts" between sections. The beginning bars sound like Webern. This approach accentuates the symphony's dramatic contrasts and evoked a visceral response from me. I think the straightforward pacing lends itself to a more immediate and immersive experience.

Some listeners may appreciate Haitink's introspective and measured approach, valuing the depth and emotional exploration it offers. Others may gravitate towards Vanska's more "removed" or "cool" interpretation, finding its momentum and immediacy to be more engaging.

This can change with more listens too.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Mapman on May 18, 2023, 05:16:46 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on May 18, 2023, 02:57:30 PM(https://storage.highresaudio.com/2021/04/27/7mnjyj-mahlersymp-preview-m3.jpg)

Haitink's approach to Mahler's Symphony No. 9 in his (release in 2021?) recording may be characterized as deliberate and measured. The slower tempos perhaps allow for a deep exploration of the emotional nuances within the score. However, I found the slower pace to be overly cautious, potentially diminishing the momentum and intensity that can be found in faster interpretations.

The Haitink was recorded in 2017. Here's the full list of recording dates (copied from Discogs):

QuoteRecorded:
• 29 Mar 2019 (Symphony No. 1)
• 15 Dec 2018 (Symphony No. 2)
• 13 Jun 2014 (Symphony No. 3)
• 22 Mar 2014 (Symphony No. 4)
• 27 Oct 2018 (Symphony No. 5)
• 25 Jan 2020 (Symphony No. 6)
• 26 Aug 2016 (Symphony No. 7)
• 18 Sep 2011 (Symphony No. 8 )
• 3 Dec 2017 (Symphony No. 9)
• 18 May 2011 (Adagio Symphony No. 10)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on May 20, 2023, 08:21:40 AM
Next Saturday, May 27, at 7:30 pm (EDT), the Cincinnati May Festival will broadcast the Eighth (looks like audio only) as the festival finale, conducted by Juanjo Mena.

Tune in on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPgKd3qwH_c) or on the Cincinnati Public Radio (https://www.wguc.org/listen/) website.

https://mayfestival.com/concerts-and-events/buy-tickets/2023-season/mahlers-symphony-of-a-thousand/live-broadcast/

-Bruce

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on May 20, 2023, 08:56:01 AM
The Eighth is always an event, regardless of who is performing it. I wish the conductor, orchestra and vocalists all good luck. ( assuming this is live... )  8)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on May 26, 2023, 04:43:31 AM
Quote from: brewski on May 20, 2023, 08:21:40 AMNext Saturday, May 27, at 7:30 pm (EDT), the Cincinnati May Festival will broadcast the Eighth (looks like audio only) as the festival finale, conducted by Juanjo Mena.

Tune in on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPgKd3qwH_c) or on the Cincinnati Public Radio (https://www.wguc.org/listen/) website.

https://mayfestival.com/concerts-and-events/buy-tickets/2023-season/mahlers-symphony-of-a-thousand/live-broadcast/

-Bruce

UPDATE: tomorrow night's conductor is now James Conlon. Interestingly, I heard him 20 years ago in the same piece, when he made his debut with the Minnesota Orchestra. (Rhetorical query: who makes his initial appearance with the Mahler 8? :o )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on May 26, 2023, 06:09:50 AM
Quote from: brewski on May 20, 2023, 08:21:40 AMNext Saturday, May 27, at 7:30 pm (EDT), the Cincinnati May Festival will broadcast the Eighth (looks like audio only) as the festival finale, conducted by Juanjo Mena.

Tune in on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPgKd3qwH_c) or on the Cincinnati Public Radio (https://www.wguc.org/listen/) website.

https://mayfestival.com/concerts-and-events/buy-tickets/2023-season/mahlers-symphony-of-a-thousand/live-broadcast/

-Bruce



Ohh cool!  My friend is in the orchestra, I'll ask him if this is going to be good.  Nah, I'm kidding - I'm sure it will be great!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on May 26, 2023, 06:40:02 AM
Quote from: brewski on May 26, 2023, 04:43:31 AMUPDATE: tomorrow night's conductor is now James Conlon. Interestingly, I heard him 20 years ago in the same piece, when he made his debut with the Minnesota Orchestra. (Rhetorical query: who makes his initial appearance with the Mahler 8? :o )

Rhetorically speaking, it's probably either his first program with the orchestra, or his first time conducting M8.

If it were his debut, that would be quite a feat...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 26, 2023, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: brewski on May 26, 2023, 04:43:31 AMUPDATE: tomorrow night's conductor is now James Conlon. Interestingly, I heard him 20 years ago in the same piece, when he made his debut with the Minnesota Orchestra. (Rhetorical query: who makes his initial appearance with the Mahler 8? :o )
Well, I can think of at least one conductor whose first major conducting appearance was Mahler 3, which they'd never studied through before...and that worked out fine!  :)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Karl Henning on May 26, 2023, 01:46:37 PM
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on May 26, 2023, 01:48:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 26, 2023, 07:33:30 AMWell, I can think of at least one conductor whose first major conducting appearance was Mahler 3, which they'd never studied through before...and that worked out fine!  :)

Who, who? (If I knew, I've forgotten. :-[ )

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on May 26, 2023, 01:50:28 PM
Quote from: LKB on May 26, 2023, 06:40:02 AMRhetorically speaking, it's probably either his first program with the orchestra, or his first time conducting M8.

If it were his debut, that would be quite a feat...

Clarification: AFAIK, it was his first time with the ensemble. (No idea if he had conducted it before, but something tells me he wouldn't have agreed if he didn't have some familiarity.)

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 26, 2023, 02:02:13 PM
Quote from: brewski on May 26, 2023, 01:48:04 PMWho, who? (If I knew, I've forgotten. :-[ )

-Bruce
25-year-old composer Esa-Pekka Salonen flying in last-minute to replace Michael Tilson Thomas at the Philharmonia.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on May 26, 2023, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 26, 2023, 02:02:13 PM25-year-old composer Esa-Pekka Salonen flying in last-minute to replace Michael Tilson Thomas at the Philharmonia.

I'm not sure I ever heard that story! Thank you so much.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on May 26, 2023, 02:54:19 PM
Quote from: brewski on May 26, 2023, 02:35:41 PMI'm not sure I ever heard that story! Thank you so much.

-Bruce
Yeah! He learned conducting just to promote his own music. I'm not sure how Philharmonia found out about him, but that was as far as I know his first real international gig and it turned him into an overnight sensation.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on May 27, 2023, 05:34:36 AM
^That's especially intriguing as I distinctly remember watching a clip of Salonen trash talking the 3rd ;D (he seemed to think that wide swathes of the first movement were nothing but bombastic filler).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on June 14, 2023, 10:03:06 AM
On Friday, 16 June, the Frankfurt Radio Symphony will livestream Mahler 4, with Benedetta Torre, soprano, and conductor Alain Altinoglu. (Alas, it looks like they will not be broadcasting the first half of the program, with Seong Jin Cho as soloist in Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 2.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L85Dpm7Ix_g

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on June 17, 2023, 09:14:55 AM
Listening to the 6th and the 9th a LOT lately. I used to say the 6th was my least favorite but I'm not so sure about that at all anymore.

My favorite conductor in both of these, lately, is Karajan. For some reason his Mahler really does it for me.

Anyone else listening to Mahler's 6th and/or 9th excessively these days?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on June 17, 2023, 02:21:38 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on June 17, 2023, 11:42:59 AMNot so long ago I became quite fixated on the 9th - and Bruno Walter's 1938 Vienna recording in particular - after attending an excellent concert performance.  It is often the way.  Something switches in the brain, and for a while that's all you want to hear. :)

That was my introduction to the Mahler 9!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on July 06, 2023, 04:31:25 PM
Today, I listened to Carpenter's completion of Mahler Symphony No. 10 (Litton/DSO).  I really enjoyed it.  I didn't notice much difference in the first scherzo since that was completed by Mahler.  This version probably includes my favorite version of Purgatorio with small subtle flourishes...it just feels more authentic and flushed out.  The second scherzo features some lovely though sparingly used tranquil passages I hadn't heard before.  Some nice and very subtle references to other works like the bass clarinet solo at the end of scherzo II being from Das Lied von der Erde.  It's very natural and subtle.  The finale is a bit more passionate though in its rising and seething...at times Tristan and Isolde.  Think more operatic but I can't tell how much of that is Litton's interpretation versus Carpenters completion.  In conclusion, it is definitely worth hearing the less familiar completions of this fantastic symphony if you like it.

I've very used to Cooke III but this version includes some interesting choices.  I also think it is a testament to how complete this symphony is that in this very different version of the symphony than Cooke, it is still mostly the same as Cooke. 

I think if I were to assemble my favorite version, it would be:

I.   Adagio: Cooke III
II.   Scherzo I : Carpenter
III.   Purgatorio : Carpenter
IV.   Scherzo II : Carpenter
V.   Finale: Mazzetti II tied with Carpenter

If I had to pick a single completion for the whole work, it would be Barshai and maybe Cooke III after that because that is the one that all others are compared to.  But truthfully, the other versions are NOT that far apart but I think Carpenter is probably the furthest from Cooke III yet not all that different once you get used to it.  Cooke III and Carpenter are probably at opposite ends yet 90% the same.   That remaining 90% is purely Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on July 06, 2023, 06:53:09 PM
Zinman used Carpenter's version for his recording of the 10th. I didn't like it, although it's been long enough since I listened that I don't remember most details. I think there was too much drum for my liking among other things.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 07, 2023, 01:13:09 PM
Happy 163rd to a great composer!

I have not been all the way tuned in to Mahler like I can sometimes get, where his music is the only thing I want to hear for weeks on end. What I've been listening to a good bit of lately is the 9th and, especially, the 6th. Today I'm listening to the 4th, in this very good recording:

(https://i.postimg.cc/R0ywNMHW/image.png)

I almost wrote very good recent recording before checking the date; 1999. Still, much of the Mahler in my collection is a lot older than that. I would love to catch up on some great performances from the past 10 years or so. Any recommendations? (I have way more Mahler than I need as it is, so any recommendations must be absolutely earth-shattering and unmissable  ;D ...)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Lisztianwagner on July 07, 2023, 01:45:13 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on July 07, 2023, 01:13:09 PMHappy 163rd to a great composer!

I have not been all the way tuned in to Mahler like I can sometimes get, where his music is the only thing I want to hear for weeks on end. What I've been listening to a good bit of lately is the 9th and, especially, the 6th. Today I'm listening to the 4th, in this very good recording:

(https://i.postimg.cc/R0ywNMHW/image.png)

I almost wrote very good recent recording before checking the date; 1999. Still, much of the Mahler in my collection is a lot older than that. I would love to catch up on some great performances from the past 10 years or so. Any recommendations? (I have way more Mahler than I need as it is, so any recommendations must be absolutely earth-shattering and unmissable  ;D ...)
Jansons/Royal Concertgebouw (2015) and Jurowski/London Philharmonic (2016) are the most recent recordings that come to my mind; I don't know how earth-shattering they can be considered (older Mahlerian performances as for example Karajan and Bernstein, are still more breathtaking in my opinion), but certainly both of them are suggestive and thrilling; I would especially recommend Jansons/RCO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on July 07, 2023, 08:07:01 PM
For the birthday boy, a rare listen to Kindertotenlieder, with Robert Holl, bass, and Chailly and the Concertgebouw (recorded in 1989). Holl's rich voice is perfect here. (I am not that familiar with his recorded output.)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91lWiD8kthL._SL1500_.jpg)

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: aukhawk on July 08, 2023, 12:47:28 AM
Vanska / Minnesota Orch is a recent cycle (still ongoing, awaiting 3 and 8, I think) which is full of good things IMHO.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on July 08, 2023, 04:57:55 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 08, 2023, 12:47:28 AMVanska / Minnesota Orch is a recent cycle (still ongoing, awaiting 3 and 8, I think) which is full of good things IMHO.

Definitely full of good things. I was in the audience for No. 8 (which the orchestra had on its website for awhile), and heard No. 3 live online. I assume BIS is preparing both for commercial release. The sound quality in the series is great, too.

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Wanderer on July 08, 2023, 05:18:03 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on July 08, 2023, 12:47:28 AMVanska / Minnesota Orch is a recent cycle (still ongoing, awaiting 3 and 8, I think) which is full of good things IMHO.

I've been holding on from buying, waiting for the eventual boxset. Same with the Iván and Ádám Fischer cycles, which I also consider very worthwhile. Streaming is ideal for situations such as these. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on July 08, 2023, 06:04:06 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on July 08, 2023, 05:18:03 AMI've been holding on from buying, waiting for the eventual boxset. Same with the Iván and Ádám Fischer cycles, which I also consider very worthwhile. Streaming is ideal for situations such as these.

Interesting that two brothers are simultaneously recording Mahler cycles. I wonder if they ever get together and compare and contrast their approaches to the music.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: brewski on July 25, 2023, 05:20:33 AM
This Sunday, July 30, at 6:00 pm EDT, Aspen's next livestream: Mahler's Third Symphony with Robert Spano, Kelley O'Connor, AOTVA Treble Chorus and Colorado Children's Chorale, and the Aspen Festival Orchestra

https://www.aspenmusicfestival.com/events/calendar/livestream-aspen-festival-orchestra-5/

-Bruce
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Valentino on August 08, 2023, 12:14:13 PM
(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/1691523679419-png.941775/)
I found this in my (digital) vaults. It's a live recording, presumably from the concerts in the big hall 28, 29 or 31 May 2005. It has the same soloists as the DG "studio" recording. Not the best sound (compression etc as if it's made for FM radio) but I really like the intensity.
Have any of you mahlerians heard it and care to comment?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on August 20, 2023, 08:16:03 AM
What do people think of the Karajan in Mahler 9 DG studio vs DG live? Playing them within a couple of days of each other and I didn't think the differences were all that great. In the past I might have had a preference for the DG live but I might prefer the studio now.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on August 20, 2023, 04:21:10 PM
Quote from: Zauberschloss on August 20, 2023, 08:16:03 AMWhat do people think of the Karajan in Mahler 9 DG studio vs DG live? Playing them within a couple of days of each other and I didn't think the differences were all that great. In the past I might have had a preference for the DG live but I might prefer the studio now.

I always wondered what was the reason he made two recordings of it in such quick succession. Have not yet heard the studio. I'd like to, but I've got more than enough Mahler 9s to keep me busy for a couple of years. The Karajan live 9th is one of the best I know.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on August 22, 2023, 10:55:57 AM
Karajan took his time for Mahler (and only conducted 4-6, 9, LvdE) but it seems the 9th had become a favorite of his, and we also know that he was fascinated by technology and re-recorded a lot of standard repertoire in the 1980s digitally despite some health problems (although I think these came later than 1982). So I'd guess they took the opportunity to bring out a successful live version in DDD. Not sure about video/laserdisc but AFAIK Karajan didn't rerecord any of Mahler 4-6.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on August 22, 2023, 11:01:33 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 22, 2023, 10:55:57 AMKarajan took his time for Mahler (and only conducted 4-6, 9, LvdE) but it seems the 9th had become a favorite of his, and we also know that he was fascinated by technology and re-recorded a lot of standard repertoire in the 1980s digitally despite some health problems (although I think these came later than 1982). So I'd guess they took the opportunity to bring out a successful live version in DDD. Not sure about video/laserdisc but AFAIK Karajan didn't rerecord any of Mahler 4-6.

Von Karajan's studio/analogue 9th and live digital 9th are conceptually very similar, as one might expect. The BPO were in peak form for both, but in the analogue Scherzo the E-Flat clarinet begins his solo a beat early ( how this made it into release has always puzzled me ). Pretty good engineering for both,  with the earlier effort sounding more atmospheric.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 23, 2023, 06:00:51 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 22, 2023, 10:55:57 AMKarajan took his time for Mahler (and only conducted 4-6, 9, LvdE) but it seems the 9th had become a favorite of his, and we also know that he was fascinated by technology and re-recorded a lot of standard repertoire in the 1980s digitally despite some health problems (although I think these came later than 1982). So I'd guess they took the opportunity to bring out a successful live version in DDD. Not sure about video/laserdisc but AFAIK Karajan didn't rerecord any of Mahler 4-6.

I got the impression that Karajan came late to appreciate Mahler and might have conducted more of the symphonies had he started earlier or lived longer rather than intentionally omitting them, but I don't recall how I got this impression.  Do we know if he ever conducted those omitted symphonies in concert but just not recordings?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on August 23, 2023, 06:33:53 AM
I read an interview in either 1977 or '78, in which von Karajan stated an intent to record the Eighth, and possibly the Third ( as l recall, forty-five years on I'm a bit foggy about this, not having seen the interview since ).

Solti's recording of the Eighth was pretty much ruling the roost at that time, and l suspect HvK might have wanted to try and go him one better. If only things hadn't of gone sour with the BPO, what might have come to fruition in his last ten years...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 23, 2023, 06:38:25 AM
It seems to me that Karajan had no serious interest in Mahler for ideological reasons. That this began to change in the later period depended perhaps not on Karajan himself.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 23, 2023, 04:08:33 PM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 23, 2023, 06:38:25 AMIt seems to me that Karajan had no serious interest in Mahler for ideological reasons. That this began to change in the later period depended perhaps not on Karajan himself.

That would apply to everyone though except maybe Bernstein and Bruno Walter.  I recall hearing in the 1960's that none of Berlin/Vienna orchestras had yet played Mahler.  So you can imagine in the 70's it was novel and I would expect this to apply to Karajan too. 
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 23, 2023, 09:18:06 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 23, 2023, 04:08:33 PMThat would apply to everyone though except maybe Bernstein and Bruno Walter.  I recall hearing in the 1960's that none of Berlin/Vienna orchestras had yet played Mahler.  So you can imagine in the 70's it was novel and I would expect this to apply to Karajan too. 

I was often in Vienna in the early 90s and I remember well the expressions on the faces of Viennese friends at the mention of Mahler. They usually spoke of their dislike of Mahler and that he simply did not know what he wanted to say in his symphonies, constantly jumping from one thing to another.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Valentino on August 23, 2023, 09:32:43 PM
According to Wikipedia the Vienna Philharmonic was very keen to premiere the fourth symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on August 24, 2023, 12:01:14 AM
Some of this is obviously wrong as e.g. the Berlin Philharmonic had recorded Mahler in the 1960s with Barbirolli. Mahler was also performed in Vienna (and elsewhere in Germany and Austria) in the 50s and 60s although it was considered rather niche and the most performed pieces were probably 1,4 and LvdE.

Many conductors of Karajan's generation didn't much care for Mahler and recorded none, or only little, or only songs. E.g. Wand, Celibidache, Jochum, Böhm, Sawallisch.

Aa late as the late 1980s when I got into classical both Bruckner and Mahler were considered "difficult" or niche repertoire (compared to Brahms or Tchaikovsky) although by then there were of course plenty of recordings and the pieces were regularly played by the big orchestras
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 24, 2023, 12:12:51 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 24, 2023, 12:01:14 AMSome of this is obviously wrong as e.g. the Berlin Philharmonic had recorded Mahler in the 1960s with Barbirolli. Mahler was also performed in Vienna (and elsewhere in Germany and Austria) in the 50s and 60s although it was considered rather niche and the most performed pieces were probably 1,4 and LvdE.

Many conductors of Karajan's generation didn't much care for Mahler and recorded none, or only little, or only songs. E.g. Wand, Celibidache, Jochum, Böhm, Sawallisch.

Aa late as the late 1980s when I got into classical both Bruckner and Mahler were considered "difficult" or niche repertoire (compared to Brahms or Tchaikovsky) although by then there were of course plenty of recordings and the pieces were regularly played by the big orchestras

I suggested why Karajan had not recorded Mahler for a long time. Of course someone else was performing Mahler, in Berlin, in Vienna, or elsewhere. Since Bruckner is mentioned, it is interesting to trace the reasons for this well-known pattern. Many conductors who often performed Bruckner did not perform Mahler, and vice versa.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on August 24, 2023, 12:29:52 AM
You suggested "ideological reaons" and Relm claimed that "none of the Vienna/Berlin orchestras had played Mahler". The latter is wrong and the former is speculation.
I also pointed out that Mahler was in no way as standard repertoire as it is today until the 1970s or even later, so it should not be that surprising that a famous conductor of the time recorded only little, rather late in his career.

Did Celi, Karajan, Wand etc. all share enough "ideology" to not care or (in HvKs case) come only later in life to Mahler? Very doubtful.

We know that Karajan usually was meticulous in his preparation (AFAIK he didn't conduct any of the Mahler pieces he didn't also record), so at around 70 he might never have had enough time to prepare more Mahler to feel comfortable with it. He also had a few other gaps (never did Sibelius 3, despite high fondness for his 5-7)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 24, 2023, 12:56:11 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 24, 2023, 12:29:52 AMYou suggested "ideological reaons" and Relm claimed that "none of the Vienna/Berlin orchestras had played Mahler". The latter is wrong and the former is speculation.
I also pointed out that Mahler was in no way as standard repertoire as it is today until the 1970s or even later, so it should not be that surprising that a famous conductor of the time recorded only little, rather late in his career.

Did Celi, Karajan, Wand etc. all share enough "ideology" to not care or (in HvKs case) come only later in life to Mahler? Very doubtful.

We know that Karajan usually was meticulous in his preparation (AFAIK he didn't conduct any of the Mahler pieces he didn't also record), so at around 70 he might never have had enough time to prepare more Mahler to feel comfortable with it. He also had a few other gaps (never did Sibelius 3, despite high fondness for his 5-7)

Of course it's speculation. I've never been inside Karajan's head, and can't know for sure why he didn't perform Mahler for a long time. At the same time, some things seem obvious, and need no further proof.

When Karajan did perform Mahler, it seems to me that he was always trying to adjust Mahler's text to his own ideas. This is why Karajan's Mahler sounds rather peculiar. I don't think that Karajan could have had any technical difficulties in the preparation. Perhaps he just didn't play those symphonies which he thought were completely "hopeless".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on August 24, 2023, 04:03:57 AM
It might be useful to recall that by the '70's von Karajan was committed to beauty of tone ( as he understood it ), above all else. 

Mahler, once he reached stylistic maturity, was interested in depicting the human emotional and spiritual universe in all of its variety, beautiful and otherwise.

Might it be that von Karajan waited as long as he did because he needed his medical challenges to provide interpretive insight, before recording the Sixth and Ninth Symphonies?

( This is mere speculation and is probably somewhat superficial, but I've not come across any more plausible explanations for HvK's " late arrival " in recording Mahler's 6th and 9th Symphonies.  )
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 24, 2023, 04:21:35 AM
Quote from: LKB on August 24, 2023, 04:03:57 AMIt might be useful to recall that by the '70's von Karajan was committed to beauty of tone ( as he understood it ), above all else. 

Mahler, once he reached stylistic maturity, was interested in depicting the human emotional and spiritual universe in all of its variety, beautiful and otherwise.

Might it be that von Karajan waited as long as he did because he needed his medical challenges to provide interpretive insight, before recording the Sixth and Ninth Symphonies?

( This is mere speculation and is probably somewhat superficial, but I've not come across any more plausible explanations for HvK's " late arrival " in recording Mahler's 6th and 9th Symphonies.  )


I would not reduce Karajan's art to the beauty of tone alone. I have a complicated history with Karajan. As much as I was attracted to his albums very early, I stopped listening to him for decades. At that time Karajan for me was synonymous with what I didn't want to hear from a conductor. And now I'm back to him again, and it seems to me that when Karajan did something well, there are few if any who can replicate the same level.

Perhaps towards the end of his life Karajan appreciated more and more the harmony, the wholeness, the perfect balance of a piece of music. And Mahler, of course, is not about that at all.

Added: Now, that's interesting. You talk about Mahler's depiction of the human emotional and spiritual universe. Question - should music simply reflect the inner world of man, with all its problematic aspects, or should it show an ideal world of harmony and beauty? A model for soul aspiration? Of course, everyone will answer for himself or herself.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ritter on August 24, 2023, 05:20:46 AM
I get the feeling that Karajan jumped on the Mahler bandwagon because it made sense at the time (mainly from a commercial point of view, I'm afraid). Mahler seems not to have been central to the conductor's interests at any moment.

Concerning other conductors of his generation, passionate Mahlerite friends of mine told me they had read (I cannot find the source) that Karl Böhm pleaded failing eyesight as a reason for not being able to study Mahler's symphonies (he did record and conduct in concert some of the song cycles).

AFAIK, Jochum only tackled Das Lied von der Erde.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 24, 2023, 06:27:40 AM
Interestingly, Mahler was hardly ever recorded in the Soviet Union. I remember Fedoseyev's recording of the 4th Symphony. Several symphonies were recorded by Kondrashin, who fled to the West. Shostakovich's chief performer, Mravinsky, did not record Mahler, despite Mahler's obvious influence on Shostakovich. Who knows, maybe because of this.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on August 25, 2023, 05:58:31 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 24, 2023, 06:27:40 AMInterestingly, Mahler was hardly ever recorded in the Soviet Union. I remember Fedoseyev's recording of the 4th Symphony. Several symphonies were recorded by Kondrashin, who fled to the West. Shostakovich's chief performer, Mravinsky, did not record Mahler, despite Mahler's obvious influence on Shostakovich. Who knows, maybe because of this.

I wonder how Shostakovich came to know Mahler if it wasn't performed in the Soviet Union.

EDIT: I found this (https://dschjournal.com/wordpress/onlinearticles/dsch27_pulcini.pdf) which might answer my question but haven't read it yet.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 25, 2023, 06:13:50 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 25, 2023, 05:58:31 AMI wonder how Shostakovich came to know Mahler if it wasn't performed in the Soviet Union.

EDIT: I found this (https://dschjournal.com/wordpress/onlinearticles/dsch27_pulcini.pdf) which might answer my question but haven't read it yet.

There's a difference between performing and recording. Something of Mahler's must have been performed in the 20s and 30s to influence Shostakovich from the very start.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: BWV 1080 on August 25, 2023, 06:37:49 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 25, 2023, 05:58:31 AMI wonder how Shostakovich came to know Mahler if it wasn't performed in the Soviet Union.

EDIT: I found this (https://dschjournal.com/wordpress/onlinearticles/dsch27_pulcini.pdf) which might answer my question but haven't read it yet.

it says all of Mahler's symphonies, save 6 and 7 were performed in Leningrad between 1922 and 1932, where presumably Shosty heard them
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 25, 2023, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: BWV 1080 on August 25, 2023, 06:37:49 AMit says all of Mahler's symphonies, save 6 and 7 were performed in Leningrad between 1922 and 1932, where presumably Shosty heard them

It's possible. When I started listening to Mahler, much later than Shostakovich, I immediately heard the undeniable similarities. The same love for schmaltz and banalities, passion for exaggeration and lack of a sense of proportion.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on November 14, 2023, 07:44:07 AM
Crosspost from the Recordings You're Considering thread.

Seen on Twitter.
Anyone have opinions on the recordings or conductor?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81R8IVtV6aL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61HZnDnUwnL._UF350,350_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 14, 2023, 08:46:14 AM
Quote from: JBS on November 14, 2023, 07:44:07 AMCrosspost from the Recordings You're Considering thread.

Seen on Twitter.
Anyone have opinions on the recordings or conductor?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81R8IVtV6aL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61HZnDnUwnL._UF350,350_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)

Not heard any of these but why buy this over any number of other versions?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on November 14, 2023, 09:28:23 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 14, 2023, 08:46:14 AMNot heard any of these but why buy this over any number of other versions?

Which is why I enquired.

[waves vaguely at the 20 plus cycles I already have]
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 14, 2023, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: JBS on November 14, 2023, 09:28:23 AMWhich is why I enquired.

[waves vaguely at the 20 plus cycles I already have]

 :o
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 14, 2023, 10:16:43 AM
You can never have too much Mahler!! ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scion7 on November 14, 2023, 11:01:33 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 25, 2023, 07:20:24 AMWhen I started listening to Mahler, much later than Shostakovich, I immediately heard the undeniable similarities. The same love for schmaltz and banalities, passion for exaggeration and lack of a sense of proportion.
I believe your stereo system is in need of repair!!!!  :-\
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: JBS on November 14, 2023, 12:09:09 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 14, 2023, 09:57:05 AM:o

Now that I'm back home and have a chance to doublecheck, it seems I only have 19 cycles.
Does that make it seem better?
 :laugh:
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scion7 on November 14, 2023, 12:13:06 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 25, 2023, 05:58:31 AMI wonder how Shostakovich came to know Mahler if it wasn't performed in the Soviet Union.

some more info on this:

Shostakovich yearned to go to Novosibirsk. He first got there in the summer of 1942, for the first performance of the Seventh Symphony by his favorite orchestra, the Leningrad Philharmonic, and his favorite conductor, Yevgeni Mravinsky. In Novosibirsk he was in his element and could enjoy the sound of orchestral music, of which he had been deprived for almost a year since there was virtually none in Kuibyshev. In Novosibirsk the Leningrad Philharmonic was giving a glittering season of symphony concerts, playing works by Mozart, Brahms, Mahler, Stravinsky, and Soviet composers. It is not surprising that, while he was in the city, Shostakovich had the idea of moving there with his family. - Pages from the Life of Dmitri Shostakovich, Dmitri & Ludmilla Sollertinsky ç1979

Before the revolution, Shostakovich's own city of St Petersburg had been the home of Rimsky-Korsakov, and it was there, in 1908, that Rimsky's pupil Stravinsky had unleashed his First Symphony. There too, music from the west's cutting edge was performed: Reger, Mahler, Debussy, Ravel, Richard Strauss, Les Six. - Classic fm Lifelines-Dmitri Shostakovich, Stephen Jackson ç1997

After 1924 (Russians) heard Mahler and Bruckner for the first time, as well as Paul Hindemith, Darius Milhaud, Arthur Honegger, Ernst Krenek and others. Hindemith, Berg and Milhaud were among several who were invited to Russia to attend and perform their own concerts. For Shostakovich this exposure came late, for he did not start studying these composers until after his graduation in 1926. - The Music of Dmitri Shostakovich: The Symphonies, Roy Blokker with Robert Darling, ç1979
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 14, 2023, 12:18:27 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on November 14, 2023, 11:01:33 AMI believe your stereo system is in need of repair!!!!  :-\

The schmaltz can be explained by a decedent ethernet cable.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scion7 on November 14, 2023, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: JBS on November 14, 2023, 12:09:09 PMNow that I'm back home and have a chance to doublecheck, it seems I only have 19 cycles. Does that make it seem better?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on November 14, 2023, 02:04:14 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 14, 2023, 10:16:43 AMYou can never have too much Mahler!! ;D

So it's different from other life essentials like water and oxygen.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on November 14, 2023, 02:43:50 PM
Quote from: Madiel on November 14, 2023, 02:04:14 PMSo it's different from other life essentials like water and oxygen.

Too much water?  You'll drown.  Too much Mahler, no such thing!!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on November 14, 2023, 08:18:01 PM
Quote from: DavidW on November 14, 2023, 02:43:50 PMToo much water?  You'll drown.  Too much Mahler, no such thing!!

*nods and smiles, backing away slowly*
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on November 15, 2023, 04:08:06 AM
While I would not disagree with the main thrust of DavidW's assertion, I would have edited it slightly:

You can never have too much early Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Scion7 on November 15, 2023, 04:23:02 AM
You prefer his earlier works over ninth, or Song of the Earth, or the Adagio?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on November 15, 2023, 06:14:22 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on November 15, 2023, 04:23:02 AMYou prefer his earlier works over ninth, or Song of the Earth, or the Adagio?

No, l don't. But l do think that the orchestral weight, emotional intensity and audience investment associated with those late works make them less amenable to " binging "... when I've heard a successful DLvdE, l want to cogitate on it for a bit, and not hear another performance of the work anytime soon.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on November 15, 2023, 06:45:45 AM
Quote from: LKB on November 15, 2023, 06:14:22 AMNo, l don't. But l do think that the orchestral weight, emotional intensity and audience investment associated with those late works make them less amenable to " binging "... when I've heard a successful DLvdE, l want to cogitate on it for a bit, and not hear another performance of the work anytime soon.

This makes sense to me. Some of my favourite music is stuff I listen to very rarely.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on November 17, 2023, 02:58:32 PM
Quote from: LKB on November 15, 2023, 06:14:22 AMNo, l don't. But l do think that the orchestral weight, emotional intensity and audience investment associated with those late works make them less amenable to " binging "... when I've heard a successful DLvdE, l want to cogitate on it for a bit, and not hear another performance of the work anytime soon.

True. DLvdE might be my favorite work of his, though it is by far the one I've heard the least (excepting perhaps the 3rd, which is great, but I seldom listen to it due to its unwieldiness.)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: LKB on November 19, 2023, 07:40:19 AM
To clarify my answer a bit: When I'm learning an unfamiliar piece, l actually do binge on it, and will listen repeatedly to its entirety for as long as it takes to commit it to memory. This is the case with both large and small forms, whether simple or complex.

Once memorized, l won't listen to any recordings of the work for an extended period ( frequently years ) so that l can incorporate the internalized version into my daily life without interpretive conflicts.

Once the music is utterly familiar in this internalized form I'll be open to other approaches, and will usually seek out recommended recordings to study. The imprint usually remains the favorite, but not invariably, so l can feel at least somewhat open to new interpretations.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on December 06, 2023, 07:33:41 AM
Hurwitz calls Vanska one of the best conducted, best played, best recorded Mahler 8s ever.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on December 06, 2023, 09:11:20 AM
Well I'm in alignment with Hurwitz (mostly) on Mahler, and I like Vanska's M10 so I might give this M8 a try.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 06, 2023, 12:25:10 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 06, 2023, 07:33:41 AMHurwitz calls Vanska one of the best conducted, best played, best recorded Mahler 8s ever.


How odd, I've never heard him say a positive thing about Vänskä. Then again, I don't recall him ever saying a positive thing about Mahler's 8th, either. Two negatives make a positive, I guess.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Brian on December 06, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 06, 2023, 12:25:10 PMHow odd, I've never heard him say a positive thing about Vänskä. Then again, I don't recall him ever saying a positive thing about Mahler's 8th, either. Two negatives make a positive, I guess.
He gave a 10/10 to Vanska's Beethoven cycle and Wit's Mahler 8...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on December 06, 2023, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 06, 2023, 12:25:10 PMHow odd, I've never heard him say a positive thing about Vänskä. Then again, I don't recall him ever saying a positive thing about Mahler's 8th, either. Two negatives make a positive, I guess.

Well actually Vanska's first Sibelius cycle is one of the reference gold standard sets for Hurwitz.  And I think he generally was a fan of his style pre-Minnesota.

To me Vanska's Mahler sounds like if you took the volume and dynamics of Solti with the transparency of Boulez.  If you're into it, it is a real tour-de-force.  Else it will leave you cold.  I've listened to several of his entries in his Mahler cycle.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Leo K. on December 06, 2023, 01:34:06 PM
The Vanska Mahler 8 is a winner for me. The best sounding Mahler 8 possibly. The performance itself is really direct and flows nicely. No strange quirks. Powerful in the forte passages.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 06, 2023, 01:52:45 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 06, 2023, 12:42:24 PMHe gave a 10/10 to Vanska's Beethoven cycle and Wit's Mahler 8...

I knew he liked Wit's Mahler 8; it was one of the few he discussed in his Mahler 8th video, but his comments about the symphony in general seemed to indicate that it was not one of his favorites. I have definitely heard him disparage Vänskä's Minnesota recordings in his videos. I believe he described his conducting as fussy and micromanaging. Didn't know he liked that Beethoven cycle, but I'll take your word for it.

I would love to hear the new Mahler 8, but I've got like 12 recordings of that symphony already ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on December 06, 2023, 08:28:43 PM
You have heard him disparage Vanska in Minnesota, but somehow missed all of his praise of Vanska in Lahti?

Because the 2 frequently went together. Part of the reason he bemoans the Minnesota Sibelius for example is precisely because he thinks the Lahti Sibelius is excellent.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 07, 2023, 02:41:57 AM
Quote from: Madiel on December 06, 2023, 08:28:43 PMYou have heard him disparage Vanska in Minnesota, but somehow missed all of his praise of Vanska in Lahti?

Because the 2 frequently went together. Part of the reason he bemoans the Minnesota Sibelius for example is precisely because he thinks the Lahti Sibelius is excellent.

Maybe instead of "I've never heard him say a positive thing about Vänskä" what I should have said is that the reason this comes as a surprise is I that have heard him say extremely negative things about Vänskä.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Madiel on December 07, 2023, 03:26:32 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 07, 2023, 02:41:57 AMMaybe instead of "I've never heard him say a positive thing about Vänskä" what I should have said is that the reason this comes as a surprise is I that have heard him say extremely negative things about Vänskä.

Yes, but my point was that almost every time I've heard him say extremely negative things about Vanska, it's been in the vein of "Vanska used to be so great".
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 07, 2023, 04:05:26 AM
Quote from: Madiel on December 07, 2023, 03:26:32 AMYes, but my point was that almost every time I've heard him say extremely negative things about Vanska, it's been in the vein of "Vanska used to be so great".

I concede that.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on December 07, 2023, 04:12:27 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 06, 2023, 01:52:45 PMI would love to hear the new Mahler 8, but I've got like 12 recordings of that symphony already ;D

Oh you're just starting then! ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on December 07, 2023, 06:35:45 AM
Mahler 8 is my holy grail in finding the best performances because of seeing a concert with Rattle (a top five music memory) which moved the symphony from like to love.

As for best sounding Mahler 8 I don't doubt BIS will take the award, this one also sounds really good. Hurwitz and I seem to differ in what we look for in a performance.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71uhYTuH2JL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on December 07, 2023, 07:05:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 06, 2023, 07:33:41 AMHurwitz calls Vanska one of the best conducted, best played, best recorded Mahler 8s ever.


Mahler is one of the composers whose music I used to love 20 or 30 years ago, and whom I hardly listen to now. Of all Mahler's symphonies, the 8th was behind by a wide margin as the least interesting. Even in the best Mahler years I hardly ever listened to it. So I tried Vänskä's recording today. Well. I liked it very much. You could say I heard Mahler's 8th for the first time, finally.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on December 07, 2023, 07:20:11 AM
Quote from: Atriod on December 07, 2023, 06:35:45 AMMahler 8 is my holy grail in finding the best performances because of seeing a concert with Rattle (a top five music memory) which moved the symphony from like to love.

For me I didn't really get into Mahler's 8th until I heard Horenstein live at the Albert Hall on BBC legends.  That is what turned it from like to love.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-XDhc5ls9O_U%2FWVMts26jRUI%2FAAAAAAAAKFg%2Ft_kg8XPjyGAPIPt0vlLPlhYM9iwBjkOXQCLcBGAs%2Fs1600%2Fcover.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=dc1cdca4eaae2cc5be5481d0e4d8a0c520b00a77eab890e842a44bbc2a2ff151&ipo=images)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 07, 2023, 08:04:09 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 07, 2023, 07:20:11 AMFor me I didn't really get into Mahler's 8th until I heard Horenstein live at the Albert Hall on BBC legends.  That is what turned it from like to love.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-XDhc5ls9O_U%2FWVMts26jRUI%2FAAAAAAAAKFg%2Ft_kg8XPjyGAPIPt0vlLPlhYM9iwBjkOXQCLcBGAs%2Fs1600%2Fcover.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=dc1cdca4eaae2cc5be5481d0e4d8a0c520b00a77eab890e842a44bbc2a2ff151&ipo=images)

How's the sound?
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on December 07, 2023, 08:52:44 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 07, 2023, 08:04:09 AMHow's the sound?

A symphony of coughs and so so sound, audiophiles would not be blown away!  No my choice that has a great performance AND great sound is Nagano.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Feclassical.textalk.se%2Fshop%2F17115%2Fart15%2Fh0446%2F4750446-origpic-f1f720.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=14b8f1e3320e09eefd8c1ea0265ab1a92a37449c584d274cae7e1c452c76729f&ipo=images)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on December 07, 2023, 09:04:08 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 07, 2023, 07:20:11 AMFor me I didn't really get into Mahler's 8th until I heard Horenstein live at the Albert Hall on BBC legends.  That is what turned it from like to love.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-XDhc5ls9O_U%2FWVMts26jRUI%2FAAAAAAAAKFg%2Ft_kg8XPjyGAPIPt0vlLPlhYM9iwBjkOXQCLcBGAs%2Fs1600%2Fcover.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=dc1cdca4eaae2cc5be5481d0e4d8a0c520b00a77eab890e842a44bbc2a2ff151&ipo=images)

My favorite performance as well! What do you make of the Antoni Wit recording that Hurwitz said was the best?

I have this Bertini/TMSO in my to hear queue, I like Bertini's EMI cycle recording of it. From what I've heard from ~30 Japanese orchestral Mahler recordings (or romantic music in general) they really love his music, often playing like it's the last performance they're going to give. Inbal's TMSO now my favorite Mahler cycle by a huge margin for a single conductor/orchestra cycle. Many traits of Bernstein's best performances in them.

(https://i.imgur.com/YCRYe3E.jpg)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on December 07, 2023, 09:21:40 AM
Quote from: Atriod on December 07, 2023, 09:04:08 AMMy favorite performance as well! What do you make of the Antoni Wit recording that Hurwitz said was the best?

I have this Bertini/TMSO in my to hear queue, I like Bertini's EMI cycle recording of it. From what I've heard from ~30 Japanese orchestral Mahler recordings (or romantic music in general) they really love his music, often playing like it's the last performance they're going to give. Inbal's TMSO now my favorite Mahler cycle by a huge margin for a single conductor/orchestra cycle. Many traits of Bernstein's best performances in them.

(https://i.imgur.com/YCRYe3E.jpg)

I haven't heard Wit.  I have heard the EMI Bertini but not the Tokyo.  So many great M8s to listen to!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 07, 2023, 12:53:04 PM
Wit/Warsaw is a really good one! I'm a fan of his conducting, and that might be his best recording of anything, that I've heard.

Nagano looks great too. I haven't heard too much of his work but I've liked what I've heard.

Horenstein, I think, was one of Tony Duggan's top picks for that symphony. He seems to rate just about all of Horenstein's Mahler recordings highly. I haven't heard anything from that conductor.

Damn, y'all are making me want to listen to Mahler's 8th again. I kind of burned myself out on it about a month or two back after listening to it every day for a while  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 07, 2023, 12:54:06 PM
Quote from: Atriod on December 07, 2023, 06:35:45 AMMahler 8 is my holy grail in finding the best performances because of seeing a concert with Rattle (a top five music memory) which moved the symphony from like to love.

As for best sounding Mahler 8 I don't doubt BIS will take the award, this one also sounds really good. Hurwitz and I seem to differ in what we look for in a performance.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71uhYTuH2JL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

This also looks good...
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on December 07, 2023, 02:01:34 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 07, 2023, 12:54:06 PMThis also looks good...

I am trying to get it elevated to cult like status because of the Mormons ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: relm1 on December 08, 2023, 05:56:49 AM
I like Dudamel with the combined orchestras of Simon Bolivar and LA Phil.  The first recording, not the second one which was just dull.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_792452-T2/images/I/51fZv1anS-L.jpg)

Simon Rattle's National Youth Orchestra is very good too.

Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: ghmath on December 18, 2023, 03:43:16 AM
Rattle's reading is exquisite IMHO. Specially the last ten minutes.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: vers la flamme on December 18, 2023, 07:40:20 AM
New reissue of Klemperer's EMI Mahler recordings on the way. Worth a buy if anyone here does not already have them.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on December 22, 2023, 07:44:30 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 18, 2023, 07:40:20 AMNew reissue of Klemperer's EMI Mahler recordings on the way. Worth a buy if anyone here does not already have them.

I've heard these transfers from the Klemperer mega box. They sound very good, definitely better than the Abbey Road ART CDs. Klemperer conducting Symphony 7 is still one I have a hard time getting through.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on December 22, 2023, 09:46:07 AM
Quote from: Atriod on December 22, 2023, 07:44:30 AMKlemperer conducting Symphony 7 is still one I have a hard time getting through.

Yeah but the second is great!
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on December 29, 2023, 05:40:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on December 22, 2023, 09:46:07 AMYeah but the second is great!

Agree, I think they're all at a very high level of musicianship. That seventh for me lacks enough contrast between the movements, also slow tempi alone doesn't make it reach into the cosmos like Inbal/Czech Philharmonic who takes more conventional tempi.

I have the two Klemperer Archiphon boxes and sadly there is not much Mahler on them, with the second being the most often recorded. Live Klemperer was not uncommonly quite special, with my favorite second from him being the live concert that EMI recorded.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 11, 2024, 07:18:26 AM
btw I saw on another forum that the Vanska cycle will be boxed and released this year.  Everything I heard I liked so far (have not tried the 8th yet), except the 10th because... I love it, not just like it.  Probably the finest 10th on record.  Currently both the M8 and M9 are half off on eclassical fyi.

Also while I'm at it I saw that the Nott cycle is on sale on JPC.  I ordered it from Groovesland a couple weeks ago, I hope to receive it sometime this week.  I see Nott as the spiritual successor to Bertini as Vanska is for Boulez.  So I can see both being happy on my shelf.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 27, 2024, 11:15:46 PM
I've been listening to the latest reincarnation of Horenstein's Mahler 3 as released by HDTT

(https://www.highdeftapetransfers.ca/cdn/shop/files/Mahler-3rd-Horenstein-Cover_550x550.jpg?v=1707217304)

The "source" for this is very unusal.  This is not yet another "back to the original master tapes" sort of thing.  Instead - at the original sessions an American engineer Jerry Bruck was allowed to set up an experimental 4 microphone surround sound array which he recorded on a system quite independent from the Bob Auger commercial recording for Unicorn.  For whatever reason these raw session tapes were never edited into a performance until now.  The HDTT team have done - to my ears - a pretty extraordinary job at replicating the original release in terms of takes chosen (the original production notes for the 1st movement(s) were lost) and although I could only listen in stereo not the 4.0 'ideal' for an early 1970's analogue recording the sound is genuinely remarkable.

Hurwitz recently consigned this performance to his mocking pile of "mediocre Mahler" but I still find Horenstein's rather monumental slow-burn approach wholly convincing if not the only/last word in Mahler 3 interpretation.  The LSO plays beautifully and the natural balances achieved with this minimalist array is very impressive.  Perhaps I want this to be a revelation so I'm not wholly objective.  It is not clear why Bruck never pursued this concept further - I assume money/rights prevented a parallel release of the Unicorn original so perhaps the deal was always more theoretical/experimental than commercial - until now....

The Death & Transfiguration squeezed into the 6th and last Mahler session gets the same recording treatment and emerges impressively too as a considerable bonus
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 27, 2024, 11:29:07 PM
I listened to this performance in another recording that has been available for years. As it seems to me, too slow and tedious. For years I have read about some incredible versions of Mahler by Horenstein. Accordingly, listened to everything I could find. Never understood the reason for the raves, in my opinion they are mostly far-fetched.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 28, 2024, 07:52:06 AM
I happened to listen to the Bernstein/DG/Concertgebouw the other day. 

(https://i.discogs.com/g_-3q-CEYlEe1Em_4XkiGoRiPDYVJ4F8iECr8_x1NX4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:595/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTYzMTIy/ODItMTQxNjE5NTY5/MC00MDQ0LmpwZWc.jpeg)

It strikes me that this epitomises Bernstein latter approach to these symphonies; great emotional upheavals and dynamic and tempo extremes.  Of course an orchestra like the Concertgebouw can take this in their stride and it certainly makes for a roller coaster exciting listen.  But in the end it makes for a neurotic and rather extreme experience.  This of course seems to chime with the current preference for Mahler of the boiling emotional confessional cauldron emoting to anyone who will listen.

Ultimately we all respond most to music/interpretations that in some degree align with our own world view and preferred emotional landscape.  Hence when push comes to shove I prefer a measured Horenstein to a hysterical Bernstein (I think his earlier NYPO cycle is superb).  I have not reached that opinion by echoing the far-fetched ravings of others.  I completely get why Bernstein's later approach does appeal to many and I'd be lying to say I don't find certain passages/movements exciting.  There's room for both approaches to be considered valid.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 28, 2024, 08:49:22 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 28, 2024, 07:52:06 AMI completely get why Bernstein's later approach does appeal to many and I'd be lying to say I don't find certain passages/movements exciting.  There's room for both approaches to be considered valid.

Yeah but not in the first (for me)!  If I want a volcanic first I go for Solti.  And then my overall favorite is the understated Kubelik/Bavarian Radio.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Jo498 on February 28, 2024, 09:04:35 AM
I actually find Bernstein/Concertgebouw on the "too philharmonic" side in the 1st. Sounds big and beautiful, but e.g. not grotesque enough in the 3rd movement (Kubelik and Walter are the best of the dozen I have heard).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: AnotherSpin on February 28, 2024, 10:10:41 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 28, 2024, 07:52:06 AMI happened to listen to the Bernstein/DG/Concertgebouw the other day. 

(https://i.discogs.com/g_-3q-CEYlEe1Em_4XkiGoRiPDYVJ4F8iECr8_x1NX4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:595/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTYzMTIy/ODItMTQxNjE5NTY5/MC00MDQ0LmpwZWc.jpeg)

It strikes me that this epitomises Bernstein latter approach to these symphonies; great emotional upheavals and dynamic and tempo extremes.  Of course an orchestra like the Concertgebouw can take this in their stride and it certainly makes for a roller coaster exciting listen.  But in the end it makes for a neurotic and rather extreme experience.  This of course seems to chime with the current preference for Mahler of the boiling emotional confessional cauldron emoting to anyone who will listen.

Ultimately we all respond most to music/interpretations that in some degree align with our own world view and preferred emotional landscape.  Hence when push comes to shove I prefer a measured Horenstein to a hysterical Bernstein (I think his earlier NYPO cycle is superb).  I have not reached that opinion by echoing the far-fetched ravings of others.  I completely get why Bernstein's later approach does appeal to many and I'd be lying to say I don't find certain passages/movements exciting.  There's room for both approaches to be considered valid.

If I have to talk about my feeling about Bernstein's Mahler, I'll seem almost entirely negative, and I don't want to ;)
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 28, 2024, 11:21:39 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 27, 2024, 11:15:46 PMHurwitz recently consigned this performance to his mocking pile of "mediocre Mahler" ...

I long ago consigned Hurwitz to my pile of mediocre critics.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 08:53:41 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 28, 2024, 11:21:39 PMI long ago consigned Hurwitz to my pile of mediocre critics.

If you're not insightful or thoughtful, then just be insufferable! ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 29, 2024, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 27, 2024, 11:15:46 PMHurwitz recently consigned this performance to his mocking pile of "mediocre Mahler" but I still find Horenstein's rather monumental slow-burn approach wholly convincing if not the only/last word in Mahler 3 interpretation.  The LSO plays beautifully and the natural balances achieved with this minimalist array is very impressive. 

I have the Unicorn LP original issue of the Horenstein 3rd and the Nonesuch LP issue of the Horenstein/LSO 1st.

I agree with you regarding H's "slow-burn approach," I think it's an impressive display of controlled, accumulated power, whereas Hurwitz thinks it's because H was an incompetent conductor who couldn't shift gears effectively. Whatever - I can only go by what my ears tell me. The real problem (at least with the LP issue) is the sound, which is recessed and lacking in impact.

The LSO 1st is the best I've heard of Horenstein's Mahler, and then mainly because of the finale, which is one of the most daring and monumental I've ever heard. The way he stretches out the coda verges on parody, but it works.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 11:34:04 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 29, 2024, 09:56:46 AMThe LSO 1st is the best I've heard of Horenstein's Mahler, and then mainly because of the finale, which is one of the most daring and monumental I've ever heard. The way he stretches out the coda verges on parody, but it works.

I'll have to give it a listen!  I remember Tony Duggan really overselling the third.  My introduction to the M3 was the Bernstein Columbia recording and when I finally heard Horenstein I was underwhelmed.  Not only that but around that time I got to hear Chailly, Gielen, Boulez, Abbado and I thought they were all more interesting than Horenstein.  But his 8th opened the door for me on that symphony (though I also liked Tennstedt as well which came not much later for me).
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 29, 2024, 01:37:00 PM
Quote from: DavidW on February 29, 2024, 11:34:04 AMI'll have to give it a listen!  I remember Tony Duggan really overselling the third.  My introduction to the M3 was the Bernstein Columbia recording and when I finally heard Horenstein I was underwhelmed.

I think the biggest problem with Horenstein is that he was often let down by the sound or the orchestra or both. The live 7th was considered a "legendary performance" in some circles, but when I finally heard it, it just sounded ordinary when it wasn't being sloppy or mushy. (Hurwitz gave it a 1. I'm more charitable, I'd probably give it a 4.) The 6th with Stockholm is a solid interpretation, but the orchestra just isn't up to the challenge. Same deal with his rather dreary-sounding DLvdE.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on February 29, 2024, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 27, 2024, 11:15:46 PMI've been listening to the latest reincarnation of Horenstein's Mahler 3 as released by HDTT

(https://www.highdeftapetransfers.ca/cdn/shop/files/Mahler-3rd-Horenstein-Cover_550x550.jpg?v=1707217304)

The "source" for this is very unusal.  This is not yet another "back to the original master tapes" sort of thing.  Instead - at the original sessions an American engineer Jerry Bruck was allowed to set up an experimental 4 microphone surround sound array which he recorded on a system quite independent from the Bob Auger commercial recording for Unicorn.  For whatever reason these raw session tapes were never edited into a performance until now.  The HDTT team have done - to my ears - a pretty extraordinary job at replicating the original release in terms of takes chosen (the original production notes for the 1st movement(s) were lost) and although I could only listen in stereo not the 4.0 'ideal' for an early 1970's analogue recording the sound is genuinely remarkable.

Hurwitz recently consigned this performance to his mocking pile of "mediocre Mahler" but I still find Horenstein's rather monumental slow-burn approach wholly convincing if not the only/last word in Mahler 3 interpretation.  The LSO plays beautifully and the natural balances achieved with this minimalist array is very impressive.  Perhaps I want this to be a revelation so I'm not wholly objective.  It is not clear why Bruck never pursued this concept further - I assume money/rights prevented a parallel release of the Unicorn original so perhaps the deal was always more theoretical/experimental than commercial - until now....

The Death & Transfiguration squeezed into the 6th and last Mahler session gets the same recording treatment and emerges impressively too as a considerable bonus

The new mix/microphone setup on the two channel version of the HDTT does sound very good, without doing any comparisons I think it does sound better than the Unicorn CD mix. Interpretively remains one of my favorites, I like Hurwitz but his taste in Mahler/Bruckner is questionable. I listened to many of his favorites when those videos came out, most often exceptionally well played but not particularly interesting. Of course it's not hard to miss on him picking top choices like Bernstein or other obvious ones, those were always going to be there.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 29, 2024, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 29, 2024, 01:37:00 PMI think the biggest problem with Horenstein is that he was often let down by the sound or the orchestra or both. The live 7th was considered a "legendary performance" in some circles, but when I finally heard it, it just sounded ordinary when it wasn't being sloppy or mushy. (Hurwitz gave it a 1. I'm more charitable, I'd probably give it a 4.) The 6th with Stockholm is a solid interpretation, but the orchestra just isn't up to the challenge. Same deal with his rather dreary-sounding DLvdE.

I think you are spot-on in all you say.  Of course the LSO circa 1970 was absolutely at the top of its considerable game and part of what I enjoyed in this performance was the quality of the solo work.  Not just in terms of technical execution but the sense of expressive freedom the players are given to imprint their personalities on that specific musical passage.  Also, given the 4 channel 'limit' there is a real sense that the balance you hear is the way the orchestra was sounding in the hall on the day.  I did notice some acoustic 'slap' when you hear the quick reverberation of a loud crash or whatever bouncing back from the opposite wall but this is a characteristic of many halls so again I felt it added to the 'real' experience more than anything else.  In the past I've found some HDTT productions to be too manipulated to add impact to the original sources.  This I thought was notable for its naturalness.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 29, 2024, 11:30:26 PM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 29, 2024, 09:56:46 AMI have the Unicorn LP original issue of the Horenstein 3rd and the Nonesuch LP issue of the Horenstein/LSO 1st.

I agree with you regarding H's "slow-burn approach," I think it's an impressive display of controlled, accumulated power, whereas Hurwitz thinks it's because H was an incompetent conductor who couldn't shift gears effectively. Whatever - I can only go by what my ears tell me. The real problem (at least with the LP issue) is the sound, which is recessed and lacking in impact.

The LSO 1st is the best I've heard of Horenstein's Mahler, and then mainly because of the finale, which is one of the most daring and monumental I've ever heard. The way he stretches out the coda verges on parody, but it works.

For me this is the kind of comment where a potentially interesting musico-critical observation is expressed in terms that make it simply rude and patronising about a fine artist and musician.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 01, 2024, 06:08:13 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 29, 2024, 11:30:26 PMFor me this is the kind of comment where a potentially interesting musico-critical observation is expressed in terms that make it simply rude and patronising about a fine artist and musician.

He's assuming that Horenstein's interpretations are a result not of the conductor's choices but of the conductor's inability; therefore they're not really interpretations. Broadly speaking, Horenstein's approach to Mahler is to prefer the gradual to the sudden. I don't know how you get incompetence out of that. It's like saying that Carlo Maria Giulini conducted slow because he was incapable of conducting fast.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on March 01, 2024, 06:17:46 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 29, 2024, 01:37:00 PMI think the biggest problem with Horenstein is that he was often let down by the sound or the orchestra or both. The live 7th was considered a "legendary performance" in some circles, but when I finally heard it, it just sounded ordinary when it wasn't being sloppy or mushy. (Hurwitz gave it a 1. I'm more charitable, I'd probably give it a 4.) The 6th with Stockholm is a solid interpretation, but the orchestra just isn't up to the challenge. Same deal with his rather dreary-sounding DLvdE.

That is definitely the problem I have with Horenstein's M9.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 01, 2024, 10:53:38 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 01, 2024, 06:17:46 AMThat is definitely the problem I have with Horenstein's M9.

Which 9th are you referring to? There's the old Vox Vienna mono from the 1950s, and a live LSO from the 60s. I think the LSO is a great performance mostly, but the sonics are seriously lacking. The worst thing is the constant coughing by some bronchitic audience member during the long drawn-out coda of the Adagio. I've never wanted to kill an audience member more!

I'm also sentimentally attached to that one, because it was one of the first CDs I bought.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on March 01, 2024, 11:27:37 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 01, 2024, 10:53:38 AMWhich 9th are you referring to? There's the old Vox Vienna mono from the 1950s, and a live LSO from the 60s. I think the LSO is a great performance mostly, but the sonics are seriously lacking. The worst thing is the constant coughing by some bronchitic audience member during the long drawn-out coda of the Adagio. I've never wanted to kill an audience member more!

I'm also sentimentally attached to that one, because it was one of the first CDs I bought.

The LSO, yeah the sound is miserable and the performance is fine.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 01, 2024, 12:09:23 PM
Re: the Horenstein recordings

I'm always ready to go with a fine performance with poor sound over a uninteresting performances with excellent sound. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey I rarely enjoy modern performances with great sound because I'm always thinking 'with this sound quality I should be enjoying the music more... but I'm not'.

That said I've never been a fan of old mono recordings with surface noise  ;D
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on March 01, 2024, 02:25:07 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 01, 2024, 12:09:23 PMRe: the Horenstein recordings

I'm always ready to go with a fine performance with poor sound over a uninteresting performances with excellent sound. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey I rarely enjoy modern performances with great sound because I'm always thinking 'with this sound quality I should be enjoying the music more... but I'm not'.

That said I've never been a fan of old mono recordings with surface noise  ;D

Recording quality is fairly low in my mind when I'm listening to something, why should I dwell on something that is out of my control. I will never stop listening to the BBC Horenstein Mahler 9, I don't care how it sounds.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: DavidW on March 02, 2024, 06:45:48 AM
Quote from: Atriod on March 01, 2024, 02:25:07 PMRecording quality is fairly low in my mind when I'm listening to something, why should I dwell on something that is out of my control. I will never stop listening to the BBC Horenstein Mahler 9, I don't care how it sounds.

I literally relistened to it on Youtube of all places a few months back and posted about how much I loved it!  So no you totally misread me if you thought that SQ stops me from listening to and enjoying a recording.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Atriod on March 06, 2024, 08:13:58 AM
Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2024, 06:45:48 AMI literally relistened to it on Youtube of all places a few months back and posted about how much I loved it!  So no you totally misread me if you thought that SQ stops me from listening to and enjoying a recording.

I didn't know you listened to it, my comment was a general one not about anyone.
Title: Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
Post by: Daverz on March 08, 2024, 04:03:36 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 27, 2024, 11:15:46 PMI've been listening to the latest reincarnation of Horenstein's Mahler 3 as released by HDTT

(https://www.highdeftapetransfers.ca/cdn/shop/files/Mahler-3rd-Horenstein-Cover_550x550.jpg?v=1707217304)


It seems that 24/96 is the lowest "quality"* they offer?  At $30 I'll pass.

* After 16/44 these numbers don't indicate any better audio quality, it's just numerology.