GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: karlhenning on April 02, 2008, 12:44:20 PM

Title: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on April 02, 2008, 12:44:20 PM

QuoteThus towards the end of his life Webern's mystical tendencies led to a kind of 'Meta-music' which did not need to be written down on paper and realized in sound.  [Cesar?] Bresgen says of this: 'It is highly improbable that Webern worked at any piece of music on paper in those last months of his life in Mittersill:  in any case there is no one to whom he spoke about it.  On the other hand one could often see Webern in most stimulating work, which consisted of drawing with pencil and compasses on a poor quality table or on a wooden board.  I well remember his system of lines, in which could be seen geometrical figures or fixed points with markings.  Once—it was the middle of August 1945—Webern said on one of my visits thaht he had just finished some work which had occupied him a great deal.  He had completely organized a piece, i.e. he had fixed all the notes in it in respect of their pitch (sound) and also their duration in time.  I cannot remember the series, but I remember Webern's remark about "time fulfilled".  With this graphic plan on the table Webern regarded the real work as completed.  More than once he made the assertion that he would never wish to hear his piece (played by musicians).  He said that the work "sounds by itself"—he himself could "hear it right through"—it was enough for him that the piece was now finished in itself:  "the sound is always there"—"a performance would not bring it out as perfectly as it had already become sound in himself".  Apart from this Webern was convinced that what he had done was no private or arbitrary step;  he said "one will hear this music as if it had always been, it will be like a morning breeze, a liberation . . . in fifty years one will find it obvious, children will understand and sing it".'

Walter Kolneder, Anton Webern: An Introduction to His Works, translated by Humphrey Searle, pp. 191-192
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 02, 2008, 01:30:29 PM
Quote
in fifty years one will find it obvious, children will understand and sing it"

Famous last words?


Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on April 03, 2008, 03:40:50 AM
Keep in mind that in 1945, Webern would not have quite reached his 62nd year. I should incline to read in fifty years not so much as pinpoint prophecy, as on the order of I shan't see it in my day, but the hour will come.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: bhodges on April 03, 2008, 10:54:23 AM
Thanks, James, I've bookmarked that for later!  Looks very interesting.

I love Webern, and can't believe we didn't have a thread for him!  Just recently Levine and the MET Orchestra did the Six Pieces, Op. 6, which might be my favorite Webern work.  The percussion section was absolutely awesome, especially in the funeral march.  I have a number of recordings, but seem to gravitate back toward Levine's two, with the MET and Berlin.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: val on April 05, 2008, 12:38:42 AM
The first time I heard Webern's music, it was in a concert by the LaSalle Quartet. They played Webern opus 5, 9 and 28. It was unforgettable. I remember being fascinated by the mystery of this music and also some sort of purity.
After all this years, I still prefer those works. But I learned to appreciate the opus 6, 10 and 21, the choral works, Augenlicht and the two Cantatas and the piano variations opus 27.

The only part of Webern's music that I don't like are the Lieder. In general, Webern doesn't seem very concerned by the poem, using the words just like as a vocal sound, with almost no relation with their meaning. It is very difficult to me to understand such aesthetic (it is the same case in certain moments of Boulez "Pli selon Pli"). 
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on April 05, 2008, 12:58:25 PM
Quote from: val on April 05, 2008, 12:38:42 AM
The only part of Webern's music that I don't like are the Lieder. In general, Webern doesn't seem very concerned by the poem, using the words just like as a vocal sound, with almost no relation with their meaning.

And yet, so many of his poems were written by someone with whom he was well acquainted.  I have scarcely read any of their correspondence, but I get the impression that his treatment of her texts did not displease her at all [?].
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Guido on September 21, 2008, 06:25:53 AM
I have just bought the complete Webern set by Boulez - the six CD one. Where do I start?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Guido on September 21, 2008, 07:11:00 AM
Haha! Well, I got this very cheaply from a market stall of all places!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2008, 08:17:15 AM
Quote from: Guido on September 21, 2008, 06:25:53 AM
I have just bought the complete Webern set by Boulez - the six CD one. Where do I start?

Start with the quartet op.22 for violin, clarinet, tenor saxophone, and piano on the third CD.

Amazingly colorful.

And don't mind James. The DG set is the reference set - it includes music not found on Sony.


Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2008, 09:27:16 AM
Quote from: James on September 21, 2008, 08:30:54 AM
yeah...it includes a lot of juvenilia and the DG set is poorly recorded, i was shocked because usually with Boulez things are up close & clear but not with that set, the music sounds like the orchestra is playing it at the bottom of the Grand Canyon with the listener at the top. the Sony set is superior because it's less ambient and more up close and clear, like being sat amoungst the musicians.

Yes, the sound Columbia achieved for Boulez back in the day was typified by a "close and clear" perspective. Quality stuff, no doubt. However it is also basically on the dry side, lacking depth.

Some listeners prefer this type of sonic perspective. Good for them, I say.

But calling the sound on DG "Grand Canyon-like" shouldn't be taken to mean the quality is poor. Far from it. It's just extremely wide and open with tons of depth and quite opposite what Columbia achieved.

Diffuse and swampy it surely isn't!

The amount of color alone on DG is enough to put the sound in the front ranks. Add to that the brilliance of the dynamic range and what we have here is no less than an aural extravaganza.

I urge everyone not to miss it - juvenilia and all - as the sound (and the music!) has deep impact.



Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Guido on September 21, 2008, 09:45:58 AM
Cheers Donwyn. I remember studying this during my A levels - an extraordinary work to be sure. The only other works I know are the three sets of cello pieces.

I guess I should have asked really - what in people's opinion are the really important and great works? Or are they all of similar high quality?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2008, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: Guido on September 21, 2008, 09:45:58 AM
Cheers Donwyn. I remember studying this during my A levels - an extraordinary work to be sure. The only other works I know are the three sets of cello pieces.

I guess I should have asked really - what in people's opinion are the really important and great works? Or are they all of similar high quality?

Guido,

Just my impression but the works probably most often heard are the Six Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6, and the Variations for Piano, Op.27.

For myself, I'm sort of a Webern 'all-rounder' as I pretty much enjoy everything he wrote.


Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Norbeone on September 21, 2008, 10:23:28 AM
My favourites include Five Pieces Op.5,  Four Pieces Op.4, Six Pieces Op.6, Five Pieces Op.10, Quartet Op.22 and the Concerto Op.24.

Also, his arrangment of Bach's Ricercar 1 6 from the Musical Offering is very interesting.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2008, 10:28:28 AM
Quote from: James on September 21, 2008, 09:35:55 AM
the Sony set does not "lack depth", it gets it just 'right'.....the over abundance of ambience in the DG set is inappropriate to Webern's very particular soundworld, but if you like your Webern all blurred, smudged & smeered than the DG set is definitely for you!

And those poor GMGers who disagree with you must pay the price in blood.

Relax a little.


Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2008, 11:02:56 AM
Guido,

I regret this discussion has become a platform for James's tantrums but I urge you to listen for yourself without prejudice to the DG set.



Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Norbeone on September 21, 2008, 12:58:21 PM
Quote from: James on September 21, 2008, 11:08:56 AM
Yea I agree ... don't take my word, it's just one of the worst recordings of the works I have ever heard, and I heard a lot believe me ...

I agree. The Boulez is indeed a wonderful set that everyone should have. The very acceptable recording quality also makes it great.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2008, 02:50:06 PM
Quote from: Guido on September 21, 2008, 09:45:58 AM
I guess I should have asked really - what in people's opinion are the really important and great works? Or are they all of similar high quality?

Of course, they're late opus-numbers, and comparatively large-scale;  apart from these obvious pointers, the Cantatas are signal high points in Webern's oeuvre . . . these more than any of his music make one weep that his life was cut off.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 21, 2008, 02:51:31 PM
Quote from: donwyn on September 21, 2008, 10:14:54 AM
. . . For myself, I'm sort of a Webern 'all-rounder' as I pretty much enjoy everything he wrote.

I'll sign on there, too.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on September 21, 2008, 04:10:30 PM
Anyone familiar with both the Karajan and Boulez recordings of the op.1?
I've always preferred Karajan...
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2008, 07:22:35 PM
Quote from: James on September 21, 2008, 11:08:56 AM
Yea I agree ... don't take my word, it's just one of the worst recordings of the works I have ever heard, and I heard a lot believe me ...

So you're just going to drag down DG, Boulez, and the entire crew/production team of this DG set with your tantrum? Not to mention the rest of the artists?

They don't deserve it, and potential buyers really need to know that DG does it right on this occasion. Your pettiness in "being right" all the time has no place when defamation is concerned.

If you favor that Sony set, that's fine. But DG has come up aces with this set.


Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2008, 02:50:06 PM
Of course, they're late opus-numbers, and comparatively large-scale;  apart from these obvious pointers, the Cantatas are signal high points in Webern's oeuvre . . . these more than any of his music make one weep that his life was cut off.

Yes, those Cantatas truly are great works!



Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2008, 09:27:41 PM
Quote from: James on September 21, 2008, 09:05:23 PM
You bet. I bought that expensive set and have every right to offer my opinion of it.

Of course, "everybody's entitled to an opinion". But when that opinion is grossly miscalculated the only responsible thing to do is right the wrong.

As I'm attempting to do.


Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Guido on September 22, 2008, 02:10:38 AM
Quote from: donwyn on September 21, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
Yes, those Cantatas truly are great works!

I seem to remember reading that these cantatas may have some antisemitic connotations in the text... Am I remembering correctly?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 22, 2008, 03:43:56 AM
Guido, I'm sure James is right, and you've wasted your money on that DG set (was it from the market stall I'm thinking of?). The best thing you can do, I'm afraid, is to slip it into an envelope and post it to me. I'll bear the burden for you...  0:)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 22, 2008, 03:50:44 AM
(Cor, ain't he the smooth one?)

Oh! and Luke, if your in-box can bear it, there will be more image-files . . . .
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on September 22, 2008, 05:18:18 AM
Quote from: James on September 21, 2008, 09:05:23 PM
Plus no unnecessary juvenilia to wade through...
I don't see how this is a bad thing at all. You get the complete Webern- no worrying about which works you don't have with this set. They might not be that great, but it's nice to see his development as a composer through the early years, and where he came from.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 22, 2008, 05:27:47 AM
Well, James is welcome to feel that the "juvenilia" is "unnecessary."  I find the pre-opus-number pieces well done, and of interest.

Webern was 20 when he composed Im Sommerwind, so I don't think the term juvenilia applies to it, in the least.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on September 22, 2008, 05:37:00 AM
The only thing I really can't stand on this set are the songs. I've tried, many times, but they always come across to me as annoying. Same thing with the Piano Variations.
The best stuff for me tends to be the orchestral stuff, since I like Webern with lots of colors. The Cantatas are awesome, too, especially the last movement of the 2nd Cantata, which repeats itself 3 times (one exposition, 2 repeats), i think- at least, that's how it sounds. It's more spooky than abstract- and according to his opus list, this was the last thing he wrote...... i wonder what he'd sound like if he wrote 30 more years?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: lukeottevanger on September 22, 2008, 05:38:55 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 22, 2008, 05:37:00 AM.... i wonder what he'd sound like if he wrote 30 more years?

Yeah, another minute or so of Webern would be great, wouldn't it? ;D
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on September 22, 2008, 05:43:08 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 22, 2008, 05:38:55 AM
Yeah, another minute or so of Webern would be great, wouldn't it? ;D
It wouldn't be much worse than Sibelius....
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 22, 2008, 05:45:54 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on September 22, 2008, 05:38:55 AM
Yeah, another minute or so of Webern would be great, wouldn't it? ;D

:D ;D 8)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 22, 2008, 05:47:33 AM
Hey, I like the Opus 27, Greg!

(Sorry, I mean GGGGRRREEG . . . .)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on September 22, 2008, 05:54:40 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 22, 2008, 05:47:33 AM
Hey, I like the Opus 27, Greg!

(Sorry, I mean GGGGRRREEG . . . .)
i do like the first movement.......

and i do like how the score looks for the next two....  ;D
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Josquin des Prez on September 22, 2008, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: James on September 22, 2008, 08:14:05 AM
Zimmerman's reading of op.27 isn't that good...try Pollini.

No.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 22, 2008, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: Guido on September 22, 2008, 02:10:38 AM
I seem to remember reading that these cantatas may have some antisemitic connotations in the text... Am I remembering correctly?

Guido,

Speaking for myself, I've never heard of anyone having issues with the texts of the Cantatas. But then again I haven't really investigated the idea so there could be info out there I'm not aware of.

Reading over the texts earlier today I can't say as anything really jumps out at me that would point to antisemitism. Unless I'm overlooking some subtle reference that's completely over my head.

It's hard of course not to notice all the other references in these texts, Christian orthodoxy, paganism, demonic ("cloud of hostility"), but beyond that from where I sit it all seems pretty harmless.

How do you feel about it? Is there something that's tugging at you?


Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Symphonien on September 22, 2008, 07:59:57 PM
Quote from: James on September 22, 2008, 08:14:05 AM
Zimmerman's reading of op.27 isn't that good...try Pollini.

I don't know how Zimerman's reading compares as his version is the only one I've heard, but the thing that really bothers me here is how he somehow manages to hum along to this piece! Humming to Webern, of all composers... Nothing particularly discernable, but the noises he makes are just audible enough to distract me! Anyway, this particular piece hasn't really grown on me yet.

I do enjoy most of that DG set however, especially the orchestral works and string quartets. The string orchestra version of Op. 5 has always been a particular favourite of mine.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Guido on September 23, 2008, 02:28:28 AM
Quote from: donwyn on September 22, 2008, 05:18:51 PM
Guido,

Speaking for myself, I've never heard of anyone having issues with the texts of the Cantatas. But then again I haven't really investigated the idea so there could be info out there I'm not aware of.

Reading over the texts earlier today I can't say as anything really jumps out at me that would point to antisemitism. Unless I'm overlooking some subtle reference that's completely over my head.

It's hard of course not to notice all the other references in these texts, Christian orthodoxy, paganism, demonic ("cloud of hostility"), but beyond that from where I sit it all seems pretty harmless.

How do you feel about it? Is there something that's tugging at you?


No it was a bit of trivia that I thought I had picked up, but I'm obviously mistaken.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2008, 04:50:20 AM
Quote from: James on September 21, 2008, 08:30:54 AM
yeah...it includes a lot of juvenilia and the DG set is poorly recorded, i was shocked because usually with Boulez things are up close & clear but not with that set, the music sounds like the orchestra is playing it at the bottom of the Grand Canyon with the listener at the top. the Sony set is superior because it's less ambient and more up close and clear, like being sat amoungst the musicians.

There are performances I enjoy from that perspective (Bernstein's Nielsen 3, for example...the original LP not the remastered CD butchers job) and I've always liked my Columbia box set of LPs (I'll probably buy the CDs too eventually). But if I had to choose, without a doubt I'd take the DG set. I prefer the warmer acoustic and, contrary to your assertion, there is no lack of clarity. Your dismissive description is hyperbolic and actually pretty funny to the many folks here who own this set and can hear it with our own ears (I'm listening to disc 2 at the moment). That you prefer the sound on Sony I have no argument wth...but Guido made no mistake.

You know, James, for someone who claims to love Webern, it's a little disconcerting to hear you dismiss so much of his music as "juvenilia."

Sarge
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2008, 05:30:23 AM
Quote from: James on September 23, 2008, 05:16:16 AM
All Im saying is that there is better out there, DG is often guilty of distance/reverb issues with their recordings...and I especially don't like listening to Webern like that, it's far too ambient and inappropriate.

I've heard Weben often in the concert hall, and ambience is what you get. Not inappropriate at all. Listeners are seldom allowed on stage to sit among the instrumentalists ;D

But, I better understand your point now--and I have no problem with the way you state it now: no claim of inferior recording or mistake made by another forum member. Just an explanation of why you prefer Sony.

Sarge
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 23, 2008, 05:45:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2008, 05:30:23 AM
But, I better understand your point now--and I have no problem with the way you state it now: no claim of inferior recording or mistake made by another forum member. Just an explanation of why you prefer Sony.

Quote from: ClaudiusWhy, now you speak
Like a good child and a true gentleman.
That I am guiltless of th'ambient noise,
And am most sensible in grief for it,
It shall as level to your judgment pierce
As day does to your eye
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Catison on September 23, 2008, 10:15:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2008, 02:51:31 PM
I'll sign on there, too.

I don't think I've ever met anyone who likes only a little Webern.  He's more of an all or nothing type of composer.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on September 23, 2008, 12:59:12 PM
Quote from: James on September 23, 2008, 03:30:22 AM
Me too.
Me 3.



Quote from: Catison on September 23, 2008, 10:15:28 AM
I don't think I've ever met anyone who likes only a little Webern.  He's more of an all or nothing type of composer.
Nice to meet you.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 23, 2008, 04:43:41 PM
Quote from: James on September 23, 2008, 05:16:16 AM
All Im saying is that there is better out there, DG is often guilty of distance/reverb issues with their recordings...and I especially don't like listening to Webern like that, it's far too ambient and inappropriate. I don't like to hear all the instruments smoothed and blurred together like that...painting ambience on top of the music.

Yes, but James, good friend, fellow Webernite, that doesn't apply to the DG set, as we're all at pains to point out to you.

The sound on DG is clean and clear with plenty of warmth and color. And it isn't overloaded with reverb.

So c'mon already! ;D



Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: haydnguy on March 11, 2009, 05:56:12 PM
Is this the Sony Webern set that James referred to as his preference to the DG set??  Thanks...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wFHoZ0CNL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 12, 2009, 01:05:55 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: John Copeland on March 12, 2009, 01:19:13 AM
REPOST FROM "wHAT ARE YOU LISTENING TO"

Some snippets of this online and from discs here and there...

Passacaglia For Orchestra - this is more like it.  Big music with a reflective edge.

Das Augenlicht - The ocular light, The eyes light, The eyesight...translations I got for Das Augenlicht, so it's something to do with eyesight!  Anyway, it's creepy but beautiful, I'll find out more about it.  I love the use of the chorus though at this time I don't know what they're singing.

Cello Sonata - random jumble of Piano and Cello would take some getting used to.  Lasts 1m 49.  Don't know what the point of it is.  Exactly the kind of irregular carry on which made me dismiss the 2nd Viennese lot.

So far, a lot of this stuff is beautiful (Three Poems, etc), but much of it struggles to be musical at all. 
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: sul G on March 12, 2009, 02:00:32 AM
...so I might as well repost here what I just responded to it there  ;D :

My point from yesterday, though (re Schoenberg but obviously applicable here too) is that if the Passacaglia (say - Gurrelieder or Verklarte Nacht in S's case) impresses you, that in itself helps. If you can see that the composer knows what he's about in these earlier works that ought to make it easier to give him a little trust on the trickier ones - so, IOW, not thinking that some of the music 'struggles to be musical' (the composer has proved his musicality) but simply that you struggle to hear it as such, at the moment. So much of appreciating this music lies in not dismissing it because one doesn't get it at first listen, and in trusting in the composer - not that I'm implying you're doing anything other than this.

You're right, though, to imply that the later stuff needs listening to with differrent expectations - IMO it is these expectations which are what one is really struggling to find in oneself, and once one can listen that way, the whole thing clicks. That's true even though the seeds of the later music  are there in the Passacaglia and even earlier.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: haydnguy on March 12, 2009, 08:31:40 AM
Quote from: sul G on March 12, 2009, 02:00:32 AM
...so I might as well repost here what I just responded to it there  ;D :

My point from yesterday, though (re Schoenberg but obviously applicable here too) is that if the Passacaglia (say - Gurrelieder or Verklarte Nacht in S's case) impresses you, that in itself helps. If you can see that the composer knows what he's about in these earlier works that ought to make it easier to give him a little trust on the trickier ones - so, IOW, not thinking that some of the music 'struggles to be musical' (the composer has proved his musicality) but simply that you struggle to hear it as such, at the moment. So much of appreciating this music lies in not dismissing it because one doesn't get it at first listen, and in trusting in the composer - not that I'm implying you're doing anything other than this.

You're right, though, to imply that the later stuff needs listening to with differrent expectations - IMO it is these expectations which are what one is really struggling to find in oneself, and once one can listen that way, the whole thing clicks. That's true even though the seeds of the later music  are there in the Passacaglia and even earlier.

I know the first piece of Schoenberg's I ever turned on was Serenade. It sounded like noise! So I backed up and listened to Verklarte Nacht several times, at one point listened to Gurrelieder and loved it the first time!. Now, I listen to Serenade and it's like listening to anything else. There are STILL pieces I don't get. Maybe there will always be. But as time has gone by, I have "gotten" more and more.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: jowcol on March 12, 2009, 01:52:43 PM
Quote from: Catison on September 23, 2008, 10:15:28 AM
I don't think I've ever met anyone who likes only a little Webern.  He's more of an all or nothing type of composer.

For me-- it's like Neil Young(maybe I'm the first to draw that comparison.)   I go through binges, and then I go through long periods without listening to him. Typically , during stretches when I'm under a lot of stress and not getting much sleep.

wjp
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on March 12, 2009, 03:05:32 PM
QuoteQuote from: Catison on September 23, 2008, 10:15:28 AM
I don't think I've ever met anyone who likes only a little Webern.  He's more of an all or nothing type of composer.
I only like a little Webern- I mean, I like it moderately but I'm not fanatical about his music.
I hear this about a lot of composers- Scriabin is one I can think of... maybe I'm an exception?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on March 12, 2009, 09:26:59 PM
though i generally prefer anything by Webern to Schoenberg, i do prefer Schoenberg's final flowering in the '49 string trio to Webern's austere rigidness in his last corresponding chamber work, str. qrt. op.28.

it seems to me that these guys played hopscotch with my prefenerences, however, were Webern allowed to live i think he would have incorporated the added fantastical/expressive freedom that Schoenberg, for me, only achieved in this last-ish work. to hear what Webern would have done had he started adding back the 6 bagatelles-era special effects to his crystalline world be interesting. i'm thinking late Nono.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: sul G on March 13, 2009, 12:51:37 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 12, 2009, 09:26:59 PM
though i generally prefer anything by Webern to Schoenberg, i do prefer Schoenberg's final flowering in the '49 string trio to Webern's austere rigidness in his last corresponding chamber work, str. qrt. op.28.

it seems to me that these guys played hopscotch with my prefenerences, however, were Webern allowed to live i think he would have incorporated the added fantastical/expressive freedom that Schoenberg, for me, only achieved in this last-ish work. to hear what Webern would have done had he started adding back the 6 bagatelles-era special effects to his crystalline world be interesting. i'm thinking late Nono.

Not doing anything original here, merely reposting the fascianting paragraph Karl quoted in his OP, because it seems highly relevant to questions of 'what would Webern have done if he had lived':

Quote from: Kolneder by way of KarlThus towards the end of his life Webern's mystical tendencies led to a kind of 'Meta-music' which did not need to be written down on paper and realized in sound.  [Cesar?] Bresgen says of this: 'It is highly improbable that Webern worked at any piece of music on paper in those last months of his life in Mittersill:  in any case there is no one to whom he spoke about it.  On the other hand one could often see Webern in most stimulating work, which consisted of drawing with pencil and compasses on a poor quality table or on a wooden board.  I well remember his system of lines, in which could be seen geometrical figures or fixed points with markings.  Once—it was the middle of August 1945—Webern said on one of my visits thaht he had just finished some work which had occupied him a great deal.  He had completely organized a piece, i.e. he had fixed all the notes in it in respect of their pitch (sound) and also their duration in time.  I cannot remember the series, but I remember Webern's remark about "time fulfilled".  With this graphic plan on the table Webern regarded the real work as completed.  More than once he made the assertion that he would never wish to hear his piece (played by musicians).  He said that the work "sounds by itself"—he himself could "hear it right through"—it was enough for him that the piece was now finished in itself:  "the sound is always there"—"a performance would not bring it out as perfectly as it had already become sound in himself".  Apart from this Webern was convinced that what he had done was no private or arbitrary step;  he said "one will hear this music as if it had always been, it will be like a morning breeze, a liberation . . . in fifty years one will find it obvious, children will understand and sing it".'
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on March 14, 2009, 12:21:29 PM
thank you...illuminating.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Catison on June 25, 2009, 04:38:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/NAS_dKaPEmg

Can you tell which Webern piece this is?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 26, 2009, 05:09:35 PM
Quote from: Catison on June 25, 2009, 04:38:44 AM
Can you tell which Webern piece this is?

Hmm...can't tell if Carrol Burnett and Co. are actual fans of modern classical or they hate it. Either way this is a particularly effective parody. ;D
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on June 26, 2009, 07:31:12 PM
Quote from: Catison on June 25, 2009, 04:38:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/NAS_dKaPEmg

Can you tell which Webern piece this is?
:D
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: CRCulver on June 27, 2009, 09:58:24 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 26, 2009, 05:09:35 PM
Hmm...can't tell if Carrol Burnett and Co. are actual fans of modern classical or they hate it. Either way this is a particularly effective parody. ;D

I don't think this is a parody of modern music at all. I think the humour in this comes from a portrayal of a recital by several people who don't actually know how to play instruments or sing.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 05:39:30 AM
I'm of two minds regarding the utter 'tidiness' of construction of some of his pieces.  He pulls it off musically, so I have no quarrel with it;  but for whatever reason, much though I enjoy the music, that model doesn't inspire me, musically (not that Webern is obliged to, in that dimension).
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: not edward on July 06, 2009, 10:40:31 AM
I sometimes wonder if there is a sense in which Webern is "young man's music."

First understanding Webern was a very powerful shock to my musical system; everything fit so logically and the music felt so "right" that though I never agreed with Boulez's 1940s rantings, I could understand the emotions and reasons behind them.

I still think Webern is one of the greatest 20th century composers--but I don't find this "rightness" so compelling now. Perhaps it's that my musical outlook has diversified; perhaps I just find other things more important to me as I have grown older; perhaps others have gone through a similar process?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 03:43:52 AM
Quote from: Greg on March 12, 2009, 03:05:32 PM
I only like a little Webern- I mean, I like it moderately but I'm not fanatical about his music.

What's your catalogue of Webern you like, Greg?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on July 07, 2009, 07:25:19 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 07, 2009, 03:43:52 AM
What's your catalogue of Webern you like, Greg?
Op.1 is still my favorite of his- one of my all-time favorite pieces of music.
After that, I like the Symphony, the Cantatas, Concerto, Variations for Orchestra, 5 Pieces for Strings, 6 Pieces for Orchestra, op.2 Flight to Light Boats, etc. I really have a hard time getting into his songs.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Josquin des Prez on July 08, 2009, 08:01:45 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on June 27, 2009, 09:58:24 AM
I don't think this is a parody of modern music at all. I think the humour in this comes from a portrayal of a recital by several people who don't actually know how to play instruments or sing.

Which is hilarious in itself.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on July 09, 2009, 03:24:32 AM
Quote from: Greg on July 07, 2009, 07:25:19 AM
Op.1 is still my favorite of his- one of my all-time favorite pieces of music.
After that, I like the Symphony, the Cantatas, Concerto, Variations for Orchestra, 5 Pieces for Strings, 6 Pieces for Orchestra, op.2 Flight to Light Boats, etc. I really have a hard time getting into his songs.

Could just be language barrier, which is a hurdle for many.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: greg on July 09, 2009, 04:15:42 PM
Probably it's just from deciding to listen a whole CD of Webern songs in one sitting, which is too hard to digest. In isolation, I bet it'd be much easier to enjoy.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Josquin des Prez on July 09, 2009, 06:17:15 PM
The problem with Webern is that his harmony goes in circles, like a spiral, every voice playing counterpoint with the others at all times. However, when it comes to his lieder we have an hard time with this because we are used to follow the singing as if it was it's own entity. The trick i suppose is to forget that and continue to focus on the continuous rotation of the spiral.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on July 12, 2010, 06:27:18 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 09, 2009, 06:17:15 PM
The problem with characteristic of Webern is that his harmony goes in circles, like a spiral, every voice playing counterpoint with the others at all times.

Corrected.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mirror Image on July 12, 2010, 06:54:25 PM
I like a few of Webern's works, but he's not one of my favorites. Even though I know "Im Sommerwind" is clearly a nod to Richard Strauss, I can't help but to moved by this piece and it's beautiful rise and flow of Romantic lyricism.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2010, 03:31:27 AM
I've been really enjoying the nods in the Cantatas (for instance) to the Flemish contrapuntal masters.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Cato on August 03, 2010, 06:42:52 AM
Upon Karl Henning's recommendation I have been reading The Gesualdo Hex which concerns assorted themes, among the connections among Gesualdo, Schoenberg, and Stravinsky, especially later in life.

While reading a thought came to me, namely, that the embryonic soul of Webern is found in the opening bars (and elsewhere in the work) of Mahler's Ninth Symphony.

The thought is not original with me by any means, but I believe it needs to be remembered.

Would Mahler have accepted Webern'smore idiosyncratic development?  I believe so, given the former's defense of Schoenberg despite misgivings.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on August 20, 2010, 06:52:16 PM
BUMP
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on August 21, 2010, 05:39:21 AM
Just listened this morning to Webern's piano quintet arrangement of Schoenberg's Erste Kammerkonzert, great fun!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe: Passacaglia Op.1
Post by: snyprrr on August 22, 2010, 08:43:03 AM
Would anyone like to discuss the Passacaglia Op.1? I just listened to it, seriously, the other day, and noticed some very Modern elements that I hadn't before. Webern is so,...so,...incisive!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Brahmsian on September 02, 2011, 06:04:08 AM
Well, last night and this morning, after listening to Disc 1 of the 6 Disc Webern complete Edition (Boulez), I am in total awe and swept away!   :)  I expected something really, really unique (which I got), but I did not expect such beauty in the music as well, such incredible beauty.

On this Disc 1 were the following pieces (which I had only ever heard the Passacaglia beforehand, so everything else was brand new to my ears, even the arrangements - which were also incredibly gorgeous):

Passacaglia for Orchestra, Op.1
5 Movements for String Orchestra, Op.5
6 Pieces for Orchestra, Op.6
Orchestral arrangement of Bach's Fuga (Ricercata) a 6 voci from 'The Musical Offering'
Orchestral arrangement of Schubert's German Dances, D820
Im Sommerwind, Idyll for Large Orchestra


Blown away.  I was blown away (perhaps it was the sommerwind).   :D
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Brahmsian on September 02, 2011, 06:15:56 AM
Did I mention I was blown away?  Just making sure!   :) 8)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 06:45:55 AM
Well done, Ray!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Opus106 on September 02, 2011, 06:46:53 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2011, 06:45:55 AM
Well done, Ray!

Ray or Webern? 0:)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 06:50:59 AM
Tangent: Interesting, the German Überlebender is literally equivalent to the source Latin for survivor.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Brahmsian on September 02, 2011, 07:10:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2011, 06:50:59 AM
Tangent: Interesting, the German Überlebender is literally equivalent to the source Latin for survivor.

:-\ ???
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 07:14:04 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 02, 2011, 07:10:52 AM
:-\ ???

Just noticed it on the Abbado disc that James was listening to, from the Schoenberg.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on November 10, 2012, 07:17:39 AM
Was it Midori (or the other one) who just played in DC and leavened her Beethoven program with Crumb(!) and Webern? My curiosity was piqued, and I pulled out the 'Kremerata Musica' cd of works by the Big 3.

All of Webern's music for violin/piano and cello/piano seem to last less than 10mins., but my!, what compactness. The 2 Pieces (1899) for cello/piano still have a Brahmsian autumnal quality, but the 4 Pieces (1910) for violin.piano are a real find. These are dark and enigmatic pieces pulled from the unconscious. There is one section of a strangely rocking minor third repeated almost in minimalist fashion. I could barely hear the inward Langsam.

Frankly, the 3 Small Pieces (1914) for cello/piano, and the Cello Sonata (1914; 1:45) both go by so quickly that I can barely remember what just happened. The Cello Sonata is one arch, very dark.

I do believe this represents Webern's music for 'Piano Trio', and, I don't recall him writing anything else like this. The sax Concerto is the next step up, no? (of course, not considering his other 'string' music)

I would have liked to hear Midori (or the other lady) play these epigrams. The review was much more favorable to her Webern than her LvB (played 'too easy' or something).


Does anyone have a better grasp on these pieces who would like to comment?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: San Antone on August 30, 2013, 04:25:26 AM
Quote from: James on August 30, 2013, 04:09:35 AM
Coming soon .. the re-issue of the historic Sony recordings ..

[asin]B00EC0VW3S[/asin]

I will get it since yesterday I discovered that CD1 (maybe others) of my set has grown some digital rot and now plays with serious audio junk. [BTW, the link for the item does not work, gives me a 404 error.]

Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Opus106 on August 30, 2013, 06:52:45 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on August 30, 2013, 04:25:26 AM
[BTW, the link for the item does not work, gives me a 404 error.]

The link works, it's probably Amazon US who haven't yet listed the item in their repository. Change the domain to one of the European ones.


While we're discussing new re-releases of Webern, let me add, by going off topic by two-thirds of the way, that Karajan's VSII recordings have apparently been boxed up. [Description says there's only one CD, though.]

[asin]B00DY9WWV[/asin]
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Leo K. on March 20, 2014, 11:14:05 AM
Quote from: James on August 30, 2013, 04:09:35 AM
Coming soon .. the re-issue of the historic Sony recordings ..

[asin]B00EC0VW3S[/asin]

This set is still great, was listening to it yesterday.


Also, I'm again discovering Karajan's account of Symphony, Op.21 with the BPO on DG. Incredible! Perhaps my favorite Webern work.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 20, 2014, 03:45:05 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 20, 2014, 11:14:05 AM
Also, I'm again discovering Karajan's account of Symphony, Op.21 with the BPO on DG. Incredible! Perhaps my favorite Webern work.

I love the Symphony. At first I was puzzled by it,  ??? but suddenly everything came together and I got hooked on it, to the point that I had to listen to it every day for a while.

And I recently got that complete Sony set in its original LP incarnation (Columbia).
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Leo K. on March 21, 2014, 08:43:46 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 20, 2014, 03:45:05 PM
I love the Symphony. At first I was puzzled by it,  ??? but suddenly everything came together and I got hooked on it, to the point that I had to listen to it every day for a while.

And I recently got that complete Sony set in its original LP incarnation (Columbia).

I wouldn't be surprised if the original LPs has wonderful warm sound. Great find there!!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 21, 2014, 07:05:21 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on March 21, 2014, 08:43:46 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the original LPs has wonderful warm sound.

It does, yeah. But...it also has lots of pre-echo, which can be pretty distracting with music where silence plays a big role, as it does with Webern.

Still, I'm not gonna complain. It also comes with excellent notes and full texts, and an extended essay by the composer Humphrey Searle, who studied with Webern. Whereas from what I've heard, those cheap Sony box reissues come with no notes at all  >:(
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2014, 04:53:29 AM
Quote from: Velimir on March 21, 2014, 07:05:21 PM
It does, yeah. But...it also has lots of pre-echo [....]

Cor, I'd clean forgot about that phenomenon.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: jlaurson on March 25, 2014, 11:37:04 AM
Krzysztof Chorzelski, violist of the Belcea Quartet, talks Anton Webern and Charles Ives while enjoying a cold one.

Anton Webern, Langsamer Satz, and the Belcea Quartet 

(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Magazine%202014/Ready-Set-Anton-Webern_560.png)


http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/345/Krzysztof-Chorzelski-violist-of-the-Belcea-Quartet-has-a-beer-and-talks-Anton-Webern-and-then-some.aspx (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/345/Krzysztof-Chorzelski-violist-of-the-Belcea-Quartet-has-a-beer-and-talks-Anton-Webern-and-then-some.aspx)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: jlaurson on May 06, 2014, 06:07:33 AM

http://www.youtube.com/v/N2D5u3Nfn1A
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on May 06, 2014, 10:11:44 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 25, 2014, 11:37:04 AM
Krzysztof Chorzelski, violist of the Belcea Quartet, talks Anton Webern and Charles Ives while enjoying a cold one.

Anton Webern, Langsamer Satz, and the Belcea Quartet 

(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Magazine%202014/Ready-Set-Anton-Webern_560.png)


http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/345/Krzysztof-Chorzelski-violist-of-the-Belcea-Quartet-has-a-beer-and-talks-Anton-Webern-and-then-some.aspx (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/345/Krzysztof-Chorzelski-violist-of-the-Belcea-Quartet-has-a-beer-and-talks-Anton-Webern-and-then-some.aspx)

You really work for The Communist Time... er... The Washington Poist? (rhymes with 'moiust')

Where's everyone getting these great gigs? :o


"Webern rocks. So, er, buy his album. Dude."


(after cold ones)


"Fuckin' Webern man. Fuckin' rocks. Buy his fuckin' album dude."


Hire me. :-X



(btw- where in the WP am I missing you?) sorry, just read that Stockhausen review- not your fault- I'm being a dikkey :-[ $:)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: jlaurson on May 06, 2014, 10:21:00 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 06, 2014, 10:11:44 AM
You really work for The Communist Time... er... The Washington Poist? (rhymes with 'moiust')
Where's everyone getting these great gigs? :o
"Webern rocks. So, er, buy his album. Dude."
(after cold ones)
"Fuckin' Webern man. Fuckin' rocks. Buy his fuckin' album dude."
Hire me. :-X
(btw- where in the WP am I missing you?) sorry, just read that Stockhausen review- not your fault- I'm being a dikkey :-[ $:)

Haven't written for the WaPo in eons. Don't live there anymore, either. Sorry to disappoint.  :(
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on May 06, 2014, 10:41:49 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 06, 2014, 10:21:00 AM
Haven't written for the WaPo in eons. Don't live there anymore, either. Sorry to disappoint.  :(

How could I be disappointed that someone actually made it out alive? Good for you, haha!!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 05:01:57 AM
I watched Webern's "Six Pieces for Orchestra" on the Berlin DCH last night. I was expecting myself to just sit through it confused. I did feel puzzled, but the music also made me feel quite sad. Especially in the last piece (or it may have been the fifth, I forget) -- this lyrical violin solo played and it just seemed like -- so out of place. Like a shard of romanticism that just wasn't wanted in the post-WWI world. In this respect it almost made me think of Ravel's spectacular "La Valse", but the Ravel's out-of-place 19th century puts up a fight whereas Webern's wanders in, sees that it isn't wanted, and leaves quietly. I was surprised to get some sort of emotional response from this. It seemed so academic before.

EDIT: By the way, I love how when I searched for "Webern" in the composer thread the engine responds "You may have meant 'Weber'". :laugh:
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe MORE WEBERN THAN WEBERN??
Post by: snyprrr on May 18, 2014, 05:14:25 PM
Who out-Weberns Webern? Seriously asking (in crystalline purity and economy, etc.,...)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe MORE WEBERN THAN WEBERN??
Post by: Mandryka on May 18, 2014, 10:32:13 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 18, 2014, 05:14:25 PM
Who out-Weberns Webern? Seriously asking (in crystalline purity and economy, etc.,...)

I think this is a really interesting question - who wrote music where you can hear the strong influence of the op 27 variations, the op 28 quartet, the op 30 Variations for orchestra? I hope someone will answer.

You (at least I think it was you) wrote a post ages ago saying that you prefer the hyper-expressionistic late Schoenberg to the hyper-pure late Webern. You gave the AS's op 45 trio as an example, comparing it unfavorably with AW's op 20. I feel the opposite in fact.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe MORE WEBERN THAN WEBERN??
Post by: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 03:00:10 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 18, 2014, 05:14:25 PM
Who out-Weberns Webern? Seriously asking (in crystalline purity and economy, etc.,...)
Well, no one. The closest anyone has come is probably Feldman even though the result is totally different. That being said, no one out-Feldmans Feldman. 8)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on May 19, 2014, 11:52:04 AM
Quote from: James on May 19, 2014, 01:29:18 AM
No one out Webern's Webern. He was his own man! (as it should be) Webern had tremendous influence on many composers, and I reckon he still is an inspiration to musicians from all over who come into contact with his thing. But most of the reputable ones developed their own voice and didn't end up being an imitation of him. (as it should be)

that's what i thought


Quote from: Mandryka on May 18, 2014, 10:32:13 PM
I think this is a really interesting question - who wrote music where you can hear the strong influence of the op 27 variations, the op 28 quartet, the op 30 Variations for orchestra? I hope someone will answer.

You (at least I think it was you) wrote a post ages ago saying that you prefer the hyper-expressionistic late Schoenberg to the hyper-pure late Webern. You gave the AS's op 45 trio as an example, comparing it unfavorably with AW's op 20. I feel the opposite in fact.

boy! takin those memory pills huh?!! haha - someone (James?) mentioned the two of them playing musical hopscotch! I guess I was saying AS won- only because Webern was SHOT!!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on May 19, 2014, 12:10:05 PM
I guess, after Webern, it went from 'economy of means' to 'proliferation of means'? Webern distilled it, and then Boulez went and added the yeast?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Brahmsian on May 24, 2014, 01:25:16 PM
First Listen to Disc 4 - Lieder

Some gorgeous stuff!  :)

Christiane Oelze, soprano
Eric Schneider, piano

[asin]B00004R9F0[/asin]
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: EigenUser on June 30, 2014, 01:39:40 AM
Is there anything Webern composed that is as frightening and powerful as the end of the 4th piece from "Six Pieces for Orchestra"?

I'm addicted to this!! All of them!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 30, 2014, 03:02:59 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on June 30, 2014, 01:39:40 AM
Is there anything Webern composed that is as frightening and powerful as the end of the 4th piece from "Six Pieces for Orchestra"?

I find the Op. 1 Passacaglia extraordinarily gripping and disturbing. It's like a late Mahler symphony condensed into 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2014, 04:52:19 AM
Well, you've got to hope that there is more on that CD than just the Op.21 . . . .
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: EigenUser on August 08, 2014, 12:24:02 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 08, 2014, 04:52:19 AM
Well, you've got to hope that there is more on that CD than just the Op.21 . . . .
These would be perfect for Webern:
[asin]B00005NHGP[/asin]
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Artem on April 12, 2015, 01:25:12 PM
How is his Webern?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Uhor on January 30, 2016, 03:58:17 PM
Webern's clear methods are a stepping stone in music ever since.

Op. 6 Six Pieces for large orchestra shows in it's richness the importance of absorbing Debussy and some help from late Mahler

Op. 21 Symphony, the momentousness of Renaissance technique.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on February 20, 2017, 07:44:30 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 30, 2014, 03:02:59 PM
I find the Op. 1 Passacaglia extraordinarily gripping and disturbing. It's like a late Mahler symphony condensed into 10 minutes.

time to break out the Webern...
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Monsieur Croche on March 26, 2017, 10:51:48 PM
for the image you seek, maybe Odilon Redon got it all in one....
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Karl Henning on August 12, 2017, 03:02:02 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 11, 2017, 11:30:03 PM
Call it what you will but I think Webern's Op 9 & 10 are the two most important early 20th century works. More important that The Rite of spring, Jeux or Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra.

Well?  And what makes the Webern more important than these landmarks in the literature?  You should know that the discussion is always more interesting than the assertion (because, you know, the assertion may just be dead wrong)  8)


(Fixed a typo.)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on August 12, 2017, 08:26:29 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 11, 2017, 11:30:03 PM
Call it what you will but I think Webern's Op 9 & 10 are the two most important early 20th century works. More important that The Rite of spring, Jeux or Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra.


What is it about Webern? there's always something almost God-like about his work  ???


(I would also mention Op 5 & 6, also both a SQ and orchestra work but they're both slightly more rooted in tradition, despite their innovations)

Baggy-tales and 5 Pieces... I'll take them to work today.... lol, less than 10 minutes of music...
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2017, 04:58:45 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 12, 2017, 03:02:02 AM
Well?  And what makes the Webern more important than these landmarks in the literature?  You should know that the discussion is always more interesting than the assertion (because, you know, the assertion may just be dead wrong)  8)

(Fixed a typo.)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Karl Henning on August 13, 2017, 05:02:00 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 12, 2017, 08:55:33 PM
Unlike Stravinsky and Schoenberg, Webern really doesn't sound like the music of his time to me, there's just really something off about his innovations. It really doesn't sound like music someone (even an innovative composer) would write in 1910, you feelin' me?  ???

That's quite possibly true; I suppose I am still waiting for the explanation of why this makes it of greater importance than Le sacre, Jeux, or the Schoenberg Op.16   0:)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: snyprrr on August 13, 2017, 08:42:31 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 12, 2017, 08:51:21 PM
I listened to Op 10 on loop for over an hour on loop this morning without realizing it.

One of the many amazing things about Webern, is that if you pay different levels of attention to the same piece, it sounds like another piece   :laugh:

It's too long. Try Ives!



























Naw dawg, that wuz jus 4 da lolz!!! :laugh:


Op.10 (Abbado/DG)

I could have sworn the big Webern orchestral piece was on that Levine disc, but, huh, wait, what is this?, has Op.10 kind of just slipped under the radar? I guess I thought I was hearing an orchestral version of one of the SQs, but, again, I might have been confusing with Schoenberg (all the Webern discs I have seem to have Schoenberg and Berg also, bla bla)...

So, on it goes...


Yes, very crystalline, with the "tinkle instrument", oh what is that celesta, glock, vibe, chimes??... all those timbres confuse me, also my most beloved... oh, the tinkle!,...

Then,... there's an outburst...


Wait,... we're already half way through,... I can't tell the changes,... all sounds... very rarified European black forests,... empty town with three souls,... night,... "A Clean, Well Lit Place" with no people,... lots of tinkle,...


OK, now we're into the Bach thing, (Variations)couldn't tell the dif, lol,...



I dunno, I listened a few times,... yes, extraordinarily crystalline, the most for it's time,... but,... poof!,... it's over,...  lol, I almost felt cheated, like a bad hand job ??? :o ???


PROLIFERATION IS THE KEY!!



Sounds like Kurtag :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



Now I have no idea what to take today???......!!....?....!.... quick quick, only 5mins to choose..............??...gotta Post....
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Omicron9 on August 25, 2017, 09:50:48 AM
My first exposure to Webern (now one of my very favorite composers) was the LaSalle quartet's recording of "Five Movements for string quartet," op. 5.  My mouth fell open at the col legno chords at the very beginning.  I still get almost knocked over every time I hear it.

The Boulez box on DG is wondrous.  As is the LaSalle quartet box set of the 2nd Viennese School on DG.  Vital.

-09
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 12:03:21 AM
Bumped. Because I can.


- D.Trump

Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 12:23:32 AM
21 is on that CD, that's all I have. You'll not be surprised that I'll be avoiding the Lieder. I just checked some out on YouTube and TBH it was more terrifying than being trapped in a lift with Diamanda Galas. 🙀
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 06:47:26 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 27, 2017, 12:59:57 AM
Sweet, what are your thoughts?  :)

I love it, I love the whole album. The music seems pared right down to its essential beauty, nothing extraneous.

Quote
If I was trapped in a lift with Diamanda Galas, I don't think I'd ever leave  ;)  :laugh:

Not alive, no.

Godnose what the expression on your face would be.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mahlerian on August 27, 2017, 07:55:23 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 27, 2017, 01:02:30 AM
I've seen people praising unpublished/non-opus works like "Im Sommerwind" but to be completely honest, if it's a Webern work without an opus number, then I don't care about it. Those early primarily romantic works are just not the Webern I love  :(

Im Sommerwind is okay, but neither as good as the best late Romantic music nor as good as Webern's later works.  His early non-opus numbered String Quartet and the Langsamer Satz (which has become quite popular) are quite excellent, though.

Quote from: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 12:23:32 AM
21 is on that CD, that's all I have. You'll not be surprised that I'll be avoiding the Lieder. I just checked some out on YouTube and TBH it was more terrifying than being trapped in a lift with Diamanda Galas. 🙀

If they were from the Boulez/Columbia recording (which is the set everyone draws from), I am not surprised.  The singer and ensemble have a harsh tone that is entirely at odds with Webern's intent.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 08:10:09 AM
It was this:


https://youtu.be/Emb2XPEq8aU
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mahlerian on August 27, 2017, 08:33:11 AM
Quote from: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 08:10:09 AM
It was this:


https://www.youtube.com/v/Emb2XPEq8aU

I do remember that performance, but don't remember how good it was.  Fair enough.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 08:35:10 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on August 27, 2017, 08:33:11 AM
I do remember that performance, but don't remember how good it was.  Fair enough.

Me and singing. It's a blind spot. Or deaf spot.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe OH, THE DRAMA!!
Post by: snyprrr on August 28, 2017, 07:52:21 AM
Quote from: nodogen on August 27, 2017, 08:35:10 AM
Me and singing. It's a blind spot. Or deaf spot.

Let's start a Club!!

It's not your fault, it is the fault of whomever said that Classical Music singers had to all sound like warbling Opera singers, everything deriving from some misbegotten notion of what the human voice is supposed to sound like.

I'm sure you have a favorite "singer",... say, Linda Ronstadt or Peter Gabriel or Frank Sinatra. HAS IT EVER OCCURED to anyone what Classical Music would sound like with "natural" singers?

Jan deGaetani and all those new fangled singers from the 60s, had NO VIBRATO and sang as pure as they were able. I can't think of any singer today emulating their style.

If Christina Aguilera(?) really has such a good voice (or Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey), why do we not ever hear ANY "normal" singer go rouge.

Or even if Diamanda Galas (I just pop a boner writing that, lol!!) would sing Webern as it was meant to be sung...


I dunno, Classical Music singers just seem like a waste to me :( :'( :-[
\


I think I have SOME singing of Classical Music that actually SOUNDS GOOD!!

OH THE DRAMA!!!! :o
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe OH, THE DRAMA!!
Post by: nodogen on August 28, 2017, 08:12:09 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 28, 2017, 07:52:21 AM
Let's start a Club!!

It's not your fault, it is the fault of whomever said that Classical Music singers had to all sound like warbling Opera singers, everything deriving from some misbegotten notion of what the human voice is supposed to sound like.

I'm sure you have a favorite "singer",... say, Linda Ronstadt or Peter Gabriel or Frank Sinatra. HAS IT EVER OCCURED to anyone what Classical Music would sound like with "natural" singers?

Jan deGaetani and all those new fangled singers from the 60s, had NO VIBRATO and sang as pure as they were able. I can't think of any singer today emulating their style.

If Christina Aguilera(?) really has such a good voice (or Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey), why do we not ever hear ANY "normal" singer go rouge.

Or even if Diamanda Galas (I just pop a boner writing that, lol!!) would sing Webern as it was meant to be sung...


I dunno, Classical Music singers just seem like a waste to me :( :'( :-[
\


I think I have SOME singing of Classical Music that actually SOUNDS GOOD!!

OH THE DRAMA!!!! :o

Crumbs, I understood your post and agree with you. One of us has messed our meds up.

I do indeed hate opera.

Classical singing doesn't have to be....the way it is. Gorecki's Symphony no.3 is completely divine.

(Please don't mention Galas singing Webern to alien. He'd never survive the popping)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe OH, THE DRAMA!!
Post by: nodogen on August 29, 2017, 02:32:37 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 28, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
Agreed, there are exceptions but I am generally quite indifferent to the standard vocal style in classical music. I don't get why classical tradition thinks that it has to sing like that, it's often to hard to get into as well  >:(

I think the first opera that I actually liked (and indeed fell straight in love with) was Ligeti's Le Grande Macabre which may be semi-ironic considering that it is in part mocking opera (and existentialism conceptually). You already know how much I love Stockhausen's Licht, so I'll keep that one out of this  ;)

There are operatic and vocal pieces I like such as Monteverdi's Orfeo, Mahler's Wunderhorn, Schubert's songs etc but they seem to be strange exceptions. I guess I'm always in a reluctant spot with this stuff  ::)

It seems weird (but not) to point out that Renaissance music means the world to me, considering how much of it is vocal music  :laugh: Though they are often 'vocal ensembles' in a sense, so it's not focused on specific voices; rather a wash of lots of polyphonic voices.


If you ever want me to slit my throat, put on a Mozart or Verdi opera  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  >:D


Galas, like Xenakis' vocal works (Ais, Oresteia etc), is VIOLENT/aggressive/ritualistic and that is what I wish I saw more of in classical music  :'( :'( :'(
The 20th century avant garde has produced the greatest classical vocal works IMO.

;D

Yes I have various vocal stuff, such as Ligeti and Tallis, it's not vocal music in principle I don't enjoy, it's the typical "style." To my ignorant ears it doesn't sound "natural." 😕
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: nodogen on August 31, 2017, 12:30:03 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 30, 2017, 11:28:07 PM
Nodogen, have you heard Op 6?


Yep, it's on the Ulster Orchestra / Yuasa CD that I have.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe OH, THE DRAMA!!
Post by: snyprrr on August 31, 2017, 08:38:49 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 28, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
Agreed, there are exceptions but I am generally quite indifferent to the standard vocal style in classical music. I don't get why classical tradition thinks that it has to sing like that, it's often to hard to get into as well  >:(

I think the first opera that I actually liked (and indeed fell straight in love with) was Ligeti's Le Grande Macabre which may be semi-ironic considering that it is in part mocking opera (and existentialism conceptually). You already know how much I love Stockhausen's Licht, so I'll keep that one out of this  ;)

There are operatic and vocal pieces I like such as Monteverdi's Orfeo, Mahler's Wunderhorn, Schubert's songs etc but they seem to be strange exceptions. I guess I'm always in a reluctant spot with this stuff  ::)

It seems weird (but not) to point out that Renaissance music means the world to me, considering how much of it is vocal music  :laugh: Though they are often 'vocal ensembles' in a sense, so it's not focused on specific voices; rather a wash of lots of polyphonic voices.


If you ever want me to slit my throat, put on a Mozart or Verdi opera  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  >:D


Galas, like Xenakis' vocal works (Ais, Oresteia etc), is VIOLENT/aggressive/ritualistic and that is what I wish I saw more of in classical music  :'( :'( :'(
The 20th century avant garde has produced the greatest classical vocal works IMO.

;D

I think we're all on the same page here. What's funny is, we all agree that ANYTHING BUT, as Nielien said, Mozart or Verdi, is actually GOOD Vocal Music. I love the Gregg Smith Singers, lol, maybe they've sung Mozart!

Elizabeth Soderstrom ::)

I quail at the thought of 2nd Viennese Lieder/Leider (what is it again?), even if Roger Daltry were singing,




wait...what???


btw- it's too hard for me not to take Op.6 for granted. I agree, though, that it is actually quite bizarre, but I do hear the rustic rustling of leaves still just a bit- it is still human- whereas Selsi writes as if FROM the other side of the door Webern was opening. It's still a human experience with Webern- though, the Op.28 I might say is going abstrea

my computer >:D

wtf do I keep accidentally hitting?? >:D >:D >:D

Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: You did it on December 06, 2017, 02:07:10 AM
The day Smalin/Musanim does a video of Webern's Symphony, I will be able to die satisfied  :D
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 04:50:53 PM
Hmm, no Webern talk in 2019...

In 2019, Anton Webern became one of my very favorite composers. I have grown to love his music very much. Everything from richly contrapuntal, overripe Romanticism of the Passacaglia and Im Sommerwind, to the deeply expressive primal scream of op.5 and op.6, to the esoteric symbology and bizarre yet always fascinating orchestration of the many Lieder, to the mystery and mysticism of the Symphony, the two Cantatas, and the String Quartet... there is very much to appreciate in his music. It's been a journey, coming to understand and appreciate his music, and I'm still in the early stages.

Apologies in advance for making this personal for a moment, but last week marked 15 years since my mother's death, and I can't believe it, because even after all this time, the loss is still an open wound. Webern's op.6, Six Pieces for Orchestra, is a work that I think captures in sound better than any other music I've heard the shock and aftermath of the death of a loved one. The composer wrote it in response to the death of his own mother and it's obvious to me what he was trying to get across, and it is like something that could have come out of my own head. Listening to it always helps me to process those old feelings that never really went away. I am very grateful to have found this piece of music.

Anyway, I listened to that and a handful of other Webern orchestral works tonight, and I just wanted to recommend this excellent box set to anyone who doesn't have it:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dRlOE1hFL._SL1500_.jpg)

Well then, anyone listening to Webern lately?!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: San Antone on December 29, 2019, 05:38:13 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 29, 2019, 04:50:53 PM
Hmm, no Webern talk in 2019...

In 2019, Anton Webern became one of my very favorite composers. I have grown to love his music very much. Everything from richly contrapuntal, overripe Romanticism of the Passacaglia and Im Sommerwind, to the deeply expressive primal scream of op.5 and op.6, to the esoteric symbology and bizarre yet always fascinating orchestration of the many Lieder, to the mystery and mysticism of the Symphony, the two Cantatas, and the String Quartet... there is very much to appreciate in his music. It's been a journey, coming to understand and appreciate his music, and I'm still in the early stages.

Apologies in advance for making this personal for a moment, but last week marked 15 years since my mother's death, and I can't believe it, because even after all this time, the loss is still an open wound. Webern's op.6, Six Pieces for Orchestra, is a work that I think captures in sound better than any other music I've heard the shock and aftermath of the death of a loved one. The composer wrote it in response to the death of his own mother and it's obvious to me what he was trying to get across, and it is like something that could have come out of my own head. Listening to it always helps me to process those old feelings that never really went away. I am very grateful to have found this piece of music.

Anyway, I listened to that and a handful of other Webern orchestral works tonight, and I just wanted to recommend this excellent box set to anyone who doesn't have it:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dRlOE1hFL._SL1500_.jpg)

Well then, anyone listening to Webern lately?!

At various times Webern has been a composer that I've listened to quite a bit, and one I have listed as among my Top Ten Favorite Composers.  He is my favorite of the three in the Second Viennese School. 

I don't have that box, but have the Boulez Complete Music, which contains the recordings I have heard the most.  I am always interested in listening to Webern, and will look for that Sinopoli box, since you are not the first to speak highly of it.  Or I might just look for some of his Webern recordings, individually.

8)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: San Antone on December 29, 2019, 05:40:28 PM
Okay, I found that set on Spotify, but with a different cover.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41E0OYTYguL._SY355_.jpg)

Listening to the Five Orchestral Pieces, op. 10
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 01:44:27 AM
^Awesome. I think Sinopoli is at his best with the early and middle works, but really all of his interpretations are worth hearing, if not for his conducting than for the amazing clarity of the Dresden Staatskapelle, one of my favorite orchestras. I've seen a lot of people rip on the artwork for the recent reissue, and I think the Mondriaan-esque fits with the music a little better, but I can't complain as I got the one that I pictured for like $15 and the older issue is going for a lot more than that.

As for Boulez, I have the earlier of his two traversals, on Sony, which is not complete per se, but it does contain all of his works that were assigned an opus number. From what I've heard of the DG box, I tend to like the Sony performances better, but I'll be getting the DG box as soon as I can find an affordable one just to satisfy that completist urge with Webern's music. Doesn't hurt that I'm a huge Boulez fan too, as performer and composer.

Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 03:37:57 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 01:44:27 AM
^Awesome. I think Sinopoli is at his best with the early and middle works, but really all of his interpretations are worth hearing, if not for his conducting than for the amazing clarity of the Dresden Staatskapelle, one of my favorite orchestras. I've seen a lot of people rip on the artwork for the recent reissue, and I think the Mondriaan-esque fits with the music a little better, but I can't complain as I got the one that I pictured for like $15 and the older issue is going for a lot more than that.

As for Boulez, I have the earlier of his two traversals, on Sony, which is not complete per se, but it does contain all of his works that were assigned an opus number. From what I've heard of the DG box, I tend to like the Sony performances better, but I'll be getting the DG box as soon as I can find an affordable one just to satisfy that completist urge with Webern's music. Doesn't hurt that I'm a huge Boulez fan too, as performer and composer.

I have both sets, and actually prefer the 1-31 opp. set because it leaves out the works without opus numbers.  But, as far which performances I prefer?  I can't answer that since I don't listen that way and don't try to make comparisons.  Each box has its strengths and for a Webern fan, I'd say having both would not be a tragedy.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 06:16:27 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 03:37:57 AM
I have both sets, and actually prefer the 1-31 opp. set because it leaves out the works without opus numbers.  But, as far which performances I prefer?  I can't answer that since I don't listen that way and don't try to make comparisons.  Each box has its strengths and for a Webern fan, I'd say having both would not be a tragedy.

To the bolded text, what a strange comment to make. There are many fine works in Webern's oeuvre that don't have opus numbers.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 06:33:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 06:16:27 AM
To the bolded text, what a strange comment to make. There are many fine works in Webern's oeuvre that don't have opus numbers.

What can I say?  Strange as it may seem to you, I don't share your appreciation for those works.

8)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 06:42:38 AM
Quote from: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 06:33:37 AM
What can I say?  Strange as it may seem to you, I don't share your appreciation for those works.

8)

There's not one work amongst the works with opus numbers that you even like? Well, to be fair, I'm not a big Webern fan, so I don't really appreciate him like I do Schoenberg for example.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 07:14:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 06:42:38 AM
There's not one work amongst the works with opus numbers that you even like? Well, to be fair, I'm not a big Webern fan, so I don't really appreciate him like I do Schoenberg for example.

I am not interested in Webern's music prior to his mature style, i.e. the spare, pointillistic, serial music.  Contrary to you, I prefer Webern's work, especially the mid- to late works, to anything Schoenberg or Berg composed.  But of those two, I will probably make more of an effort to listen to Berg's operas.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Jo498 on December 30, 2019, 08:27:11 AM
I think that stuff like "Im Sommerwind" or that early slow movement for string quartet show, like Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht etc., that Webern could have become a composer fully immersed in late/impressionist romanticism instead of moving into a more austere direction. There are very few people around nowadays who seriously claim that Schoenberg and his pupils composed "ugly modern" music because they were unable to do "better" but these early works very clearly disprove such nonsense.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 02:57:59 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on December 30, 2019, 08:27:11 AM
I think that stuff like "Im Sommerwind" or that early slow movement for string quartet show, like Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht etc., that Webern could have become a composer fully immersed in late/impressionist romanticism instead of moving into a more austere direction. There are very few people around nowadays who seriously claim that Schoenberg and his pupils composed "ugly modern" music because they were unable to do "better" but these early works very clearly disprove such nonsense.

Yes, hearing Webern's Passacaglia and Sommerwind, Berg's great piano sonata, and most of all Schoenberg's Gurrelieder was big for me in understanding these composers. These early, late-Romantic works really illuminated the way into the rest of the music for me. I want to echo Mirror Image that there are many great Webern works sans opus, and I want to echo San Antone that I much prefer Webern to Berg or Schoenberg, both of whom I also love. Well, it's not fair to say that, it's just that Webern's music speaks to me on a much more direct, personal level than does the music of the other two Viennese. I'm a devoted student of the whole trio, though, and my musical listening life has become very enhanced through the discovery of this fascinating music over the past year or so.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 04:21:23 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 02:57:59 PM
Yes, hearing Webern's Passacaglia and Sommerwind, Berg's great piano sonata, and most of all Schoenberg's Gurrelieder was big for me in understanding these composers. These early, late-Romantic works really illuminated the way into the rest of the music for me. I want to echo Mirror Image that there are many great Webern works sans opus, and I want to echo San Antone that I much prefer Webern to Berg or Schoenberg, both of whom I also love. Well, it's not fair to say that, it's just that Webern's music speaks to me on a much more direct, personal level than does the music of the other two Viennese. I'm a devoted student of the whole trio, though, and my musical listening life has become very enhanced through the discovery of this fascinating music over the past year or so.

I suppose one reason for my allegiance to Schoenberg stems from the fact that he was the first composer of the Second Viennese School that really opened my ears. When I first heard Verklärte Nacht and read the criticism that it was "as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet," I became rather intrigued by his music. I didn't start appreciating 12-tone Schoenberg until much later, but it was these early works, especially from Schoenberg and Berg that have stayed with me. Webern was always more elusive to me even though I certainly have a better understanding of his music now, but this is only because I've spent more time trying to get inside of his music. After all of these years, I'm still in awe of what these three composers achieved. I even have a t-shirt with Arnie on it. 8)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 04:37:02 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 04:21:23 PM
I suppose one reason for my allegiance to Schoenberg stems from the fact that he was the first composer of the Second Viennese School that really opened my ears. When I first heard Verklärte Nacht and read the criticism that it was "as if the score of Tristan had been smeared while the ink was still wet," I became rather intrigued by his music. I didn't start appreciating 12-tone Schoenberg until much later, but it was these early works, especially from Schoenberg and Berg that have stayed with me. Webern was always more elusive to me even though I certainly have a better understanding of his music now, but this is only because I've spent more time trying to get inside of his music. After all of these years, I'm still in awe of what these three composers achieved. I even have a t-shirt with Arnie on it. 8)

That's a badass T-shirt ;D Of the three, Schoenberg was and still is the toughest nut to crack – even the early works! Pierre Boulez once criticized Webern's music for being "too simple", and while he was definitely wrong, or being insincere, there is something to that. I think his music is by far the most straightforward of the three, or at least he is the only one of them whose music clicked with me from the first listen. However, if I had first heard one of the 12-tone Webern works as an introduction to his music rather than the Passacaglia and the 5 Pieces op.5 and 6 Pieces op.6, I think my opinion of him may have been different. By listening from the beginning in chronological order, in light of the very personal response I had to his early works that I described in an earlier post, I was "inside" right from the beginning, and it was only natural working through the remainder of the works.

Anyway, enough about me; everyone hears his music differently! You wouldn't be wrong if you were to describe Schoenberg as the more accomplished composer, or the composer of more advanced music. I love Schoenberg, but I wonder if his music will ever cease to challenge me. I hope it doesn't!

I always thought that description of Verklärte Nacht was apt. It's like Wagner meets Brahms meets Strauss – the birth of expressionism. Did you first hear the sextet or the string orchestra version? I prefer the sextet personally.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 04:37:02 PM
That's a badass T-shirt ;D Of the three, Schoenberg was and still is the toughest nut to crack – even the early works! Pierre Boulez once criticized Webern's music for being "too simple", and while he was definitely wrong, or being insincere, there is something to that. I think his music is by far the most straightforward of the three, or at least he is the only one of them whose music clicked with me from the first listen. However, if I had first heard one of the 12-tone Webern works as an introduction to his music rather than the Passacaglia and the 5 Pieces op.5 and 6 Pieces op.6, I think my opinion of him may have been different. By listening from the beginning in chronological order, in light of the very personal response I had to his early works that I described in an earlier post, I was "inside" right from the beginning, and it was only natural working through the remainder of the works.

Anyway, enough about me; everyone hears his music differently! You wouldn't be wrong if you were to describe Schoenberg as the more accomplished composer, or the composer of more advanced music. I love Schoenberg, but I wonder if his music will ever cease to challenge me. I hope it doesn't!

I always thought that description of Verklärte Nacht was apt. It's like Wagner meets Brahms meets Strauss – the birth of expressionism. Did you first hear the sextet or the string orchestra version? I prefer the sextet personally.

One of my all-time favorite works is Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra. For me, it is better than anything that has come before and after in his oeuvre. I'm a huge fan of this middle period or as it's been called 'free atonal period' where there's no rules and is completely up in the air as far as where the music goes. Five Pieces for Orchestra resonates deeply for me because you can hear a composer that knows he can no longer accept the German/Austrian tradition (even though he never truly abandoned it and, ironically, felt he was a part of the same lineage as Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, etc.). Schoenberg, of course, never fully turned his back on tonality and many of his works embraced it. He's actually not difficult to crack at all, but he does require much listening in order to fully assimilate everything that is happening in his music. I, too, prefer the string sextet arrangement of Verklärte Nacht, but I like the string orchestra arrangement as well.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 05:03:33 PM
This is the image I used for my Schoenberg t-shirt:
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 05:13:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 04:53:41 PM
One of my all-time favorite works is Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra. For me, it is better than anything that has come before and after in his oeuvre. I'm a huge fan of this middle period or as it's been called 'free atonal period' where there's no rules and is completely up in the air as far as where the music goes. Five Pieces for Orchestra resonates deeply for me because you can hear a composer that knows he can no longer accept the German/Austrian tradition (even though he never truly abandoned it and, ironically, felt he was a part of the same lineage as Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, etc.). Schoenberg, of course, never fully turned his back on tonality and many of his works embraced it. He's actually not difficult to crack at all, but he does require much listening in order to fully assimilate everything that is happening in his music. I, too, prefer the string sextet arrangement of Verklärte Nacht, but I like the string orchestra arrangement as well.

Perhaps not in a general sense, but for me, he is, especially compared to supposedly "difficult" composers like Webern and Boulez who came to me very easily. It's much the same way that I feel about Brahms. His music is a constantly rewarding challenge, a puzzle for my brain to work together. It's all so layered, dense, and contrapuntal, and there is always so much going on as you allude to. For this reason it is extremely rewarding to repeated listens. I feel the same way about late Webern, but again, I find it much more simple on a fundamental level.

Speaking of late Webern, I got two CDs today that contain recordings of the piano variations. I'm listening to one of them now...:

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Pretty damn good recording, I think. More fiery than my preferred recording, from a young Idil Biret.

This is the other one I got:

[asin]B00000JYTV[/asin]

Have yet to hear it, but the Schoenberg on there is pretty damn solid!
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 05:15:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 30, 2019, 05:03:33 PM
This is the image I used for my Schoenberg t-shirt:

Awesome, I love that self-portrait. Schoenberg was one hell of a painter!

(https://www.akg-images.co.uk/Docs/AKG/Media/TR5/2/2/b/1/AKG43541.jpg)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: San Antone on December 30, 2019, 05:21:12 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 05:13:28 PM
This is the other one I got:

[asin]B00000JYTV[/asin]

Have yet to hear it, but the Schoenberg on there is pretty damn solid!

That Peter Hill recording is very good, IMO.  It has become my go-to recording for the solo piano music of these composers.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: staxomega on June 06, 2021, 07:59:51 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 30, 2019, 05:13:28 PM
Perhaps not in a general sense, but for me, he is, especially compared to supposedly "difficult" composers like Webern and Boulez who came to me very easily. It's much the same way that I feel about Brahms. His music is a constantly rewarding challenge, a puzzle for my brain to work together. It's all so layered, dense, and contrapuntal, and there is always so much going on as you allude to. For this reason it is extremely rewarding to repeated listens. I feel the same way about late Webern, but again, I find it much more simple on a fundamental level.

Speaking of late Webern, I got two CDs today that contain recordings of the piano variations. I'm listening to one of them now...:

[asin]B000001GQK[/asin]

Pretty damn good recording, I think. More fiery than my preferred recording, from a young Idil Biret.

This is the other one I got:

[asin]B00000JYTV[/asin]

Have yet to hear it, but the Schoenberg on there is pretty damn solid!

How do you think Op. 27 variations from Peter Hill compares to Pollini? Glenn Gould's are also really good if you haven't heard them.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Leo K. on October 06, 2022, 08:08:55 AM
Been listening to various recordings of Webern's Symphony, Op.21. Perhaps my favorite symphony of all time, or close. Right now I'm playing Robert Craft's account on Naxos. Earlier I played Takuo Yuasa's account, also on Naxos. I have no direct favorite recording as they each look at this work with a valid interpretation.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Lisztianwagner on October 16, 2022, 02:24:00 PM
Webern is still the toughest nut of the Second Viennese School to crack for me, but his music has an aspect I admire, I mean, the quality of concentrating the expressive power and the inspiring intent into a small form, that in any case is able to be meaningful and inventive, in an aphoristic way; as a matter of fact, works like Variations Op. 30, the Piano Variations, Five and Six Orchestral Pieces and the Concerto Op. 24 are short, but suggestive, with an essential, but effective orchestration. His fragmented textures, developed through a wide trimbric variety, are quite thrilling too.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mandryka on October 16, 2022, 08:26:05 PM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 06, 2022, 08:08:55 AM
Been listening to various recordings of Webern's Symphony, Op.21. Perhaps my favorite symphony of all time, or close.

Yes I can understand why you might say that. Did you see that Heinz Holliger released a recording of it a couple of months ago? I'm not sure I like what he makes of it but maybe . . .
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Leo K. on October 17, 2022, 09:25:33 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 16, 2022, 08:26:05 PM
Yes I can understand why you might say that. Did you see that Heinz Holliger released a recording of it a couple of months ago? I'm not sure I like what he makes of it but maybe . . .
I was not aware of the new Holliger recording so thanks very much! I will check it out for sure.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mandryka on October 17, 2022, 01:22:12 PM
Holliger really slows things down. It's extraordinary how fresh the music sounds in all its uncomfortable strangeness. Timeless I guess. There's an early recording by Craft which I like very much.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Leo K. on October 20, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 17, 2022, 01:22:12 PM
Holliger really slows things down. It's extraordinary how fresh the music sounds in all its uncomfortable strangeness. Timeless I guess. There's an early recording by Craft which I like very much.
It seems Eliahu Inbal stretched the first movement out too (on the Denon label) - very transfixing account, like walking in Kafka's world. Yes I love the strangeness and the almost-reference to Mahler's 9 (the beginning) so it looks backward too.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2022, 11:21:53 AM
Quote from: Leo K. on October 20, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
It seems Eliahu Inbal stretched the first movement out too (on the Denon label) - very transfixing account, like walking in Kafka's world. Yes I love the strangeness and the almost-reference to Mahler's 9 (the beginning) so it looks backward too.

Thanks for that, I'm listening now and I like it very much.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Atriod on May 28, 2023, 07:07:42 AM
Robert Craft is getting a big Sony mega box of recordings. I wrote this box off based off my impressions of the 4 CD Webern set which I immediately ordered without streaming given the lack of Webern recordings. My first (and only) impression was not so favorable, Craft is a literalist almost to a fault. Contrast this to Boulez on DG that would paint these sparse, haunting images in pieces like the cantatas that made me immediately fall for Webern. I'm open to revisiting this Craft set again.

Someone on another board says the Schoenberg is the main highlight of the upcoming 44 disc Craft box and up until now these have never been on digital so I'd only be able to hear them if someone transferred their LP and uploaded it to you Youtube. I find Craft a fine conductor of Schoenberg and Stravinsky on Naxos and enjoyed two of his books on Stravinsky, he is clearly someone that understands this music.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716fbm4U3OL._SL500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: vers la flamme on May 28, 2023, 08:00:50 AM
Quote from: Atriod on May 28, 2023, 07:07:42 AMRobert Craft is getting a big Sony mega box of recordings. I wrote this box off based off my impressions of the 4 CD Webern set which I immediately ordered without streaming given the lack of Webern recordings. My first (and only) impression was not so favorable, Craft is a literalist almost to a fault. Contrast this to Boulez on DG that would paint these sparse, haunting images in pieces like the cantatas that made me immediately fall for Webern. I'm open to revisiting this Craft set again.

Someone on another board says the Schoenberg is the main highlight of the upcoming 44 disc Craft box and up until now these have never been on digital so I'd only be able to hear them if someone transferred their LP and uploaded it to you Youtube. I find Craft a fine conductor of Schoenberg and Stravinsky on Naxos and enjoyed two of his books on Stravinsky, he is clearly someone that understands this music.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716fbm4U3OL._SL500_.jpg)

I was going to get this until I saw a few unfavorable reviews similar to your own, after which my interest waned. Webern is one of my favorite composers, so I do think I ought to hear this eventually, but there is so much music to hear and so little time, so we'll see when.

However, I am very interested to hear Inbal's take on Webern.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Atriod on June 03, 2023, 09:16:34 AM
Reinvigorated in my prior indifference for Eschanbach performances (main issue his tempo choices though he often makes it work) after hearing a stunning Mahler Symphony 5 from him I decided to look for some Eschenbach recordings I haven't heard before which lead me to discovering his Koch recording of Schönberg's Pelleas und Melisande and Webern's Passacaglia. In that search I came across this well thought out opinion of Webern's Passacaglia which is precisely how I hear it, I could possibly even agree with the author saying that it might have sounded like Mahler's 11th symphony :)

I also feel like Schönberg and Berg were still romantics composing in a new idiom whereas other than the Passacaglia Webern (and Boulez more so!) completely divorced himself from this. My logical progression of how I see them as Wagner, Mahler (explored dissonance later on, departed from unmemorable classical prose or writing symphonies that who knows you could throw a dart at it could be any one of said composer's), Schönberg (still inspired by Brahms and Wagner) and lastly Webern and Boulez.

I don't quite share the same enthusiasm as the author for Eschenbach's performance of the Passacaglia. Pelleas und Melisande is very good, good enough that I'll see about making a post about it. The insanely good Mahler 5 will definitely be written up once I have heard it a few more times. For Passacaglia I continue to prefer Karajan and Boulez (Berlin or Lucerne Festival Academy of the four recordings). Eschenbach comfortably hangs with fine versions like Dohnányi.

QuoteWebern's Passacaglia makes an ideal coupling with Pelleas. Composed some five years later, it plumbs and reveals a similar psycho-emotional territory, despite important differences in approach. Both works are products of considerable intellectual discipline, but while Schoenberg's displays a Straussian robustness, opulence, and generosity, Webern's is brief highly concentrated, a kaleidoscopic sequence of emotional states of exquisitely horrifying intensity. A brilliant product of the sort of sensibility that used to be termed "neurasthenic," the work conveys a feeling of hysterical anxiety in dread of imminent catastrophe that often suggests late Mahler who was writing his Ninth Symphony at the time). In fact, the Passacaglia often sounds as if it were Mahler's Eleventh Symphony condensed into fourteen minutes. As someone who firmly believes that the works of Webern's maturity represent one of the most inauspicious dead-ends in all of music, I nevertheless feel that this Op. 1, written when the composer was twenty-five, is a masterpiece of the period. Both these works are truly of their time — a time when the fundamental emotions underlying and motivating human behavior were addressed by the arts with greater insight and sensitivity than they had been before or have been since Eschenbach's readings are both highly expressive and deeply analytical, although the Houston Symphony may not project the sense of spiritual authenticity as thoroughly as do Karajan's recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic (now available only within a three-disc set). But these are meticulously executed, subtly nuanced interpretations, which benefit significantly from a recording technique that provides extraordinary transparency of detail without compromising richness of sonority, thus enabling striking orchestral effects to be heard more clearly than they usually do on recording, let alone in live performances, where they are usually lost completely. Steve Smith's intelligent and informed program notes are a further enhancement. This disc is strongly recommended to aficionados of late-romantic music who might have avoided these works because of a reflexive aversion to the composers' names.

Source: https://walter-simmons.com/writings/343
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: vers la flamme on August 20, 2023, 05:47:53 PM
Favorite recordings of Webern's complete string quartets?
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Luke on August 20, 2023, 06:50:35 PM
I like this one



(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71K4o6pTd8L._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Lisztianwagner on August 21, 2023, 02:21:39 AM
I'll vote for the Neues Leipziger Streichquartett too.
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: DavidW on August 21, 2023, 06:16:54 AM
Also LaSalle

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.pOYuxx8AR-Lf0nbpkbJB2gHaHf%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=d9d6765b044555788bd6952e25fc11c7f93e38a22838abc5c984b55aeb28332b&ipo=images)
Title: Re: Webern's Vibe
Post by: Atriod on August 21, 2023, 07:16:44 AM
The best performances I've heard are from Quatuor Diotima and Arditti Quartet.