GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 28, 2018, 10:22:24 AM

Title: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 28, 2018, 10:22:24 AM
I have always wondered why. Das Rheingold and Siegfried have always been my favorites from the Ring Cycle (usually Rheingold, although there was a long stretch when I liked Siegfried even more) but never Die Walküre or Götterdämmerung. Don't get me wrong, I love them but when it comes to personal preferences there is no doubt in my mind that Rheingold and Siegfried are superior.

Is the reason for the popularity of Walküre and Götterdämmerung the element of humanity? Rheingold and Siegfried lack particularly likable characters (in fact I find Siegfried's treatment of Mime borderline unbearable) so for all the complex and understandable portrayal of characterizations and motives, all that violence without the soothing element may seem too rough. But that's actually what I don't get: people usually praise Siegmund and nowadays I actually like him - in act 1. In act 2 he becomes unbearably clingy, to the point of declaring that no one else than he (her brother (!) has a right to touch Sieglinde, to the point that he is prepared to kill Sieglinde in her sleep. Yes, very humane indeed. And the popularity of Götterdämmerung can be explained with the fact that it is the only opera of the cycle in which humans in general are really dominant as a race. No more mythological characters (not much, that is).

Or perhaps people like the music in those two operas more? That kind of baffles me, too. Siegfried is pretty murky in the beginning, true, but that makes the slowly emerging light all  the more spectacular. And maybe murky is a wrong word, except for the prelude of act 1 which is pretty gloomy, even if in a good way. Much of act 1 as well as act 2 however has warm sound, in low string instruments, yes, but it feels pleasant to my ears. And the waldweben of act 2 is absolutely sparkling with light, much like Act 3 and much of Das Rheingold.

And the action element - IMO Rheingold and Siegfried are among the most action-oriented Wagner operas (which isn't necessarily saying much, though) whereas Walküre and Götterdämmerung are more static. So what is it that the audience sees in Walküre and Götterdämmerung what Rheingold and Siegfried (supposedly) lack?

Any ideas?

Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2018, 11:31:11 AM
Quote from: Alberich on April 28, 2018, 10:22:24 AMSo what is it that the audience sees in Walküre and Götterdämmerung what Rheingold and Siegfried (supposedly) lack?

Easily explained: Walküre has the "Ride of the Valkyries" and Götterdämmerung has Siegfried's "Rhine Journey" and "Funeral Music"...simple, see?  ;)

Seriously, though, why do you say those two operas are more popular? On what is that assertion based?

Sarge
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 28, 2018, 11:34:51 AM
But Rheingold has the bit with the hammers and anvils!
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 28, 2018, 11:39:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2018, 11:31:11 AM
Easily explained: Walküre has the "Ride of the Valkyries" and Götterdämmerung has Siegfried's "Rhine Journey" and "Funeral Music"...simple, see?  ;)

Seriously, though, why do you say those two operas are more popular? On what is that assertion based?

Sarge

There might not be an objectively correct answer to one of the Cycle Operas being more popular than others, but I would agree that Walkure and Götterdämmerung have more well known or more-often performed moments, or scenes, so that might be where the perception is made.



Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 28, 2018, 11:34:51 AM
But Rheingold has the bit with the hammers and anvils!


But Siegfried has murmurs.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: André on April 28, 2018, 12:46:02 PM
It's a very good and valid interrogation. It just so happens that Walküre and Götterdämmerung are my favourite parts of the cycle, so I guess my 2 cents will be worth their weight in (rhine)gold  ;)

You probably nailed it when you talked about the humanity of the characters in Walküre. The same thing happens in the last Ring Journey. Brünnhilde has put spear and shield in the attic and has happily settled as a hausfrau. Waltraute announces that Wotan is on a diet and will no longer eat Freia's guaranteed-longevity apples. Siegfried has a contract put on his head and is slain in the only part of his body that is not supernaturally protected. The gods' Vegas casino goe into flames. Hoover Dam is blown up and water floods everything. All the gods' powers fail them one by one. Audiences love when the powerful are humbled. In that sense, W and G  have more appeal to our very human feelings than the other two operas. As I said, my 2 cents  :D
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 28, 2018, 03:08:41 PM
I have always felt that Rheingold and Siegfried are more self contained in terms of story. Although they are more action oriented, they lack the kind of tension between characters that are so prominent in the other two.

Siegfried and Götterdämmerung were composed when Wagner had developed a better sense of continuous music as well, without hints of a recitative style that we hear sometimes in Rheingold and Walküre. For a long time this is what made me prefer the second two over the first two.

I've come around to enjoy Walküre more only after I had seen a production live. I think Act 1 of Walküre is one of the most perfect single acts that Wagner ever created in terms of the pacing of the tension and the entire emotional arc throughout it. Also, this is Brünnhilde at her best. There's more going on in this opera in terms of a character driven story then there are in Rheingold and Siegfried, and I suspect this is something people really like.

As to at makes Götterdämmerung my personal favourite, well, Siegfried has always been an awful character (criticism of the classic hero archetype) so he is rightly betrayed but with what turns out are rather severe consequences for everyone, pushing the story on to the gods' final downfall. Such a great story and I think a bit more interesting than Walküre because we are discovering the consequences of everything that happened in the earlier parts. And also the music is happens to be my favourite out of the whole Ring.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Mirror Image on April 28, 2018, 07:10:10 PM
Das Rheingold is one of my favorite works from Wagner. Not only do I think it's brilliant from a musical standpoint, but I love the fact that it has a short duration! :)
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: GioCar on April 29, 2018, 02:13:53 AM
Quote from: jessop on April 28, 2018, 03:08:41 PM
I think Act 1 of Walküre is one of the most perfect single acts that Wagner ever created in terms of the pacing of the tension and the entire emotional arc throughout it.

Seconded! Act 1 of Die Walküre could stand alone by itself as a short one-act opera.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 29, 2018, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2018, 11:31:11 AM
Easily explained: Walküre has the "Ride of the Valkyries" and Götterdämmerung has Siegfried's "Rhine Journey" and "Funeral Music"...simple, see?  ;)

Seriously, though, why do you say those two operas are more popular? On what is that assertion based?

Sarge

But Siegfried has Forest Murmurs (nature tone painting at it's finest), a great guessing game which would make one think of Tolkien if only this weren't composed much earlier than The Hobbit, much variety thanks to 12 years break between acts 2 and 3, return of many characters from Rheingold that we didn't see in Walküre, Rheingold has amazing anvil sequence (as Scarpia said), bright Rhinegold!Rhinegold! ensemble, great orchestral colors, a stupendous prelude, great characters, awesomely atmospherical Nibelheim scene, and of course, Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla.

Are myths of R and S more boring compared to psychological drama of W and G?
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Wendell_E on April 30, 2018, 03:02:58 AM
Maybe's it's as simple and shallow as there not being a big "diva" role in Rheingold, and having to wait hours before the diva wakes up in Siegfried? I joke, but I'm serious.

For what it's worth, according to the Met's online database, they've actually done Siegfried more often than Götterdämmerung, but even combined they haven't been done as often as  Walküre (which has two "diva" roles, come to think of it, plus a big "cameo" for Fricka).

Met Ring statistics:

537 Die Walküre
271 Siegfried
236 Götterdämmerung
168 Das Rheingold

113 complete cycles

Next season, they'll do three cycles, plus one extra Rheingold and two extra Walküres.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 30, 2018, 03:11:43 AM
Siegfried has long stretches of singing and this can be boring for some (no action). I wouldn't be surprised if Siegfried was considered one of the most boring of all Wagner operas (not that it is necessarily fair, but this is the reputation).

Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: king ubu on April 30, 2018, 03:21:18 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 28, 2018, 11:39:34 AM
But Siegfried has murmurs.

but, but ... Wagner IS murmurs, nothing but  ::)
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: André on April 30, 2018, 04:35:21 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 30, 2018, 03:11:43 AM
Siegfried has long stretches of singing and this can be boring for some (no action). I wouldn't be surprised if Siegfried was considered one of the most boring of all Wagner operas (not that it is necessarily fair, but this is the reputation).

I recently watched a dvd of Siegfried (the Met Lepage production) and it struck me as the most vivid of the 4 operas, with lots of interaction and tension between the protagonists - certainly more so than Walküre and Götterdämmerung, where a lot of the action is quite static. That being said, I till prefer the music in W and G.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: marvinbrown on April 30, 2018, 05:52:20 AM


  I am going to be a bit controversial when I say that the ring cycle is one whole integral work of art.  There is no such thing as Walkure being more interesting than Siegfried.  That to me is like saying "Oh I prefer the first and third movement of symphony x over the 2nd movement of symphony x. 

  But I will play along and say, no way is Siegfried boring or any less thrilling musically than either W or G.  This is what Siegfried has that is truly spectacular:

  1) The sword forcing scene
  2) the Fafner vs Siegfried combat scene
  3) the Brunhilde Siegfried awakening and then love scene
  4) the 3 question exchange between Mime and the wanderer
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 30, 2018, 06:53:55 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 30, 2018, 05:52:20 AM
That to me is like saying "Oh I prefer the first and third movement of symphony x over the 2nd movement of symphony x. 

Why can't one prefer one movement of a work to other?  8)
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: marvinbrown on April 30, 2018, 07:13:06 AM
Quote from: Alberich on April 30, 2018, 06:53:55 AM
Why can't one prefer one movement of a work to other?  8)

  One can prefer one movement over the other I suppose.  But I tend to view the 4 operas of the ring as more integrated than movements of a symphony (I admit that was not a good example).  Let me try this approach, sometimes, due to time contraints  I will divide the ring cycle into acts whereby on one day I will listen to the first 2 acts of Walkure and then the following day the last act of Walkure followed by the first act of Siegfried. I don't feel that musically I am listening to a different works.  It all ties in, with the repeating leitmotifs to present a unified whole.  Well that's just my opinion anyway.
 
  I guess the danger with viewing them as separate operas is that you could lose sight of the unifying themes that bind them all together.

  marvin
 
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Rinaldo on April 30, 2018, 12:12:52 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 30, 2018, 03:11:43 AMI wouldn't be surprised if Siegfried was considered one of the most boring of all Wagner operas (not that it is necessarily fair, but this is the reputation).

In my experience, the reputation is merited. After Walküre captivated me pretty much from start to finish, Siegfried was such a letdown. To my heathen ears (I enjoy the cycle but don't study it vigorously), the music is simply boring.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 30, 2018, 12:27:31 PM
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 30, 2018, 05:52:20 AMI am going to be a bit controversial when I say that the ring cycle is one whole integral work of art.  There is no such thing as Walkure being more interesting than Siegfried.  That to me is like saying "Oh I prefer the first and third movement of symphony x over the 2nd movement of symphony x.

I am at a loss to understand why you think that the fact that the Ring is an integral work of art means that one part of it can't be more interesting than another.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: marvinbrown on May 01, 2018, 02:28:36 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 30, 2018, 12:27:31 PM
I am at a loss to understand why you think that the fact that the Ring is an integral work of art means that one part of it can't be more interesting than another.

  Well musically, the leitmotifs repeat or are presented again in varying situations throughout the 4 operas.  For example the love duet at the end of Siegfried is heard again in Gotterdammerung.  The leitmotif at the beginning of Rheingold is presented again in a darker form in the Siegfried funeral march in Gotterdammerung, The leitmotif representing the giants, the wanderer, etc. are repeated, sometimes in varying forms throughout the 4 operas.   I can see how one might prefer the action sequence in one ring opera over another, but I tend to view the whole thing as one piece.  Just me I suppose. 

  marvin
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Cato on May 01, 2018, 03:58:52 AM
Many decades ago I had study scores of all four operas and listened for many hours to them.

I found myself listening to Goetterdaemmerung the most, followed by Das Rheingold, Die Walkuere, and Siegfried.

The latter was not uninteresting musically, and I did enjoy especially the interaction between Mime and Siegfried.

But now, decades later, I can see why some people (like my younger self) might miss the charms of Siegfried: like Beowulf, it is in one sense almost a meditation on heroism, a pondering of the hero's duty and nature, rather than a showcase of the hero in action.   Of course, it also acts as a long, ominous crescendo toward Goetterdaemmerung, the apotheosis of the story, and so if it seems to have few scenes which are less than thrilling, and more scenes with subtler psychological menace and dread, that is by design of the tetralogy.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 01, 2018, 08:40:03 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 01, 2018, 02:28:36 AM
  Well musically, the leitmotifs repeat or are presented again in varying situations throughout the 4 operas.  For example the love duet at the end of Siegfried is heard again in Gotterdammerung.  The leitmotif at the beginning of Rheingold is presented again in a darker form in the Siegfried funeral march in Gotterdammerung, The leitmotif representing the giants, the wanderer, etc. are repeated, sometimes in varying forms throughout the 4 operas.   I can see how one might prefer the action sequence in one ring opera over another, but I tend to view the whole thing as one piece.  Just me I suppose. 

  marvin

Clearly there are crucial thematic connections mediated by the leitmotifs, but that doesn't exclude the possibility they were used more effectively in one than another. He did put it aside for 12 years and write two operas before resuming with a refined technique.

My perspective is perhaps influenced by the fact that my life circumstances would never allow me the time to listen to the entire ring sequentially and absorb it as a whole.  Getting through one act is difficult.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Rinaldo on May 14, 2022, 11:09:13 PM
A little thread necromancy after yesterday's Siegfried in Vienna I had the pleasure attending. Well, pleasure – the orchestra played their viennese hearts out, the singers were mostly solid, but the staging was the epitome of blandness. I'm all for simple, stark productions, but save for a wonderful dying Fafner towering over Siegfried, this was a school-level effort. A hole for a grave here, a spear-that-doesn't-break-but-has-to-be-awkwardly-switched there, everything bathing in shades of grey... It all felt like one giant post-covid budget cut and the uninspired direction didn't help.

That said, I've certainly warmed to the music in the first two acts. And by warmed I mean I liked it a lot. The third still seems too disjointed and patchwork. The long gap shows – and not in a good way. I don't hear a master who took serious time to ponder how to sort things out, but a guy suddenly remembering he had a deadline twelve years ago.

And the chief problem that persists? Siegfried is such a repellent dunce. I know he's supposed to be a Tarzan-like man-child, condemned to a destiny he didn't choose, but calling this simpleton heroic? Until *gasp* seeing a woman, he doesn't have to overcome anything. The guy just stumbles from one scene to another and whoops, I've killed a dragon, well, let's have a nap and wait for a bird to tell me what to stumble into next.

Hard to fall for a drama built around its least interesting character.
Title: Re: Why Rheingold and Siegfried are less popular than Walküre and Götterdämmerung?
Post by: Cato on July 11, 2022, 11:54:28 AM
Quote from: Rinaldo on May 14, 2022, 11:09:13 PM
A little thread necromancy after yesterday's Siegfried in Vienna I had the pleasure attending. Well, pleasure – the orchestra played their viennese hearts out, the singers were mostly solid, but the staging was the epitome of blandness. I'm all for simple, stark productions, but save for a wonderful dying Fafner towering over Siegfried, this was a school-level effort. A hole for a grave here, a spear-that-doesn't-break-but-has-to-be-awkwardly-switched there, everything bathing in shades of grey... It all felt like one giant post-covid budget cut and the uninspired direction didn't help.

That said, I've certainly warmed to the music in the first two acts. And by warmed I mean I liked it a lot. The third still seems too disjointed and patchwork. The long gap shows – and not in a good way. I don't hear a master who took serious time to ponder how to sort things out, but a guy suddenly remembering he had a deadline twelve years ago.

And the chief problem that persists? Siegfried is such a repellent dunce. I know he's supposed to be a Tarzan-like man-child, condemned to a destiny he didn't choose, but calling this simpleton heroic? Until *gasp* seeing a woman, he doesn't have to overcome anything. The guy just stumbles from one scene to another and whoops, I've killed a dragon, well, let's have a nap and wait for a bird to tell me what to stumble into next.

Hard to fall for a drama built around its least interesting character.

Many thanks for the review!

Here is what I wrote some years ago:

Quote from: Cato on May 01, 2018, 03:58:52 AM

Many decades ago I had study scores of all four operas and listened for many hours to them.

I found myself listening to Goetterdaemmerung the most, followed by Das Rheingold, Die Walkuere, and Siegfried.

The latter was not uninteresting musically, and I did enjoy especially the interaction between Mime and Siegfried.

But now, decades later, I can see why some people (like my younger self) might miss the charms of Siegfried: like Beowulf, it is in one sense almost a meditation on heroism, a pondering of the hero's duty and nature, rather than a showcase of the hero in action.   Of course, it also acts as a long, ominous crescendo toward Goetterdaemmerung, the apotheosis of the story, and so if it seems to have a few scenes which are less than thrilling, and more scenes with subtler psychological menace and dread, that is by design of the tetralogy.


Wagner's text follows the tradition of the naive hero, or even a dunce hero, whose innocence or lack of understanding of the world, including (especially?) sexuality, allows him in fact to conquer the evil around him.

In essence, if he eats of the apple, he loses his power over evil.  There is also something of Rousseau's Noble Savage in the idea, i.e. corruption of civilization vs. the pristine nature of the incorruptible "natural man."

One can debate whether any of that is true to any degree.  Wagner apparently had no trouble with accepting it!