nodogen's post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23302.msg1076856.html#msg1076856) set my thoughts to wondering . . . just which 10 would these be? I was going to ask,
Well, what about [name of opera]?, and I second-guessed myself—is (e.g.)
The Magic Flute really as well-loved as I was supposing?
Here are my guesses:
- Aïda
- Rigoletto
- Il trovatore
- Carmen
- Norma
- La traviata
- La Bohème
- Le nozze di Figaro
- Tosca
- Die Fledermaus
Some which I did not cast up there:
Die Zauberflöte, Così fan tutte | However well regarded Mozart maybe among musicians, I had to yield to the nagging feeling that general affection for these does not rise to the level of the Top 10.
Wagner | He enjoys a loyal fanbase, yes. But whether considered politically/socially, or as a matter of the stamina demanded of the listener, does Wagner somehow remain too polarizing a figure, to be genuine a Top 10 most-loved opera writer?
Les Troyens | I love it, but Berlioz is arguably a more cult figure (in the opera world) than even Wagner 8)
Anything Russian | As I consider the matter of popular operas, I just do not see any Russian opera (in the non-Russophone world) vying with the Italian or French literature in the matter of general popularity.
Or anything in English, for that matter.
The 10 most often performed operas in 2015/16: (from http://operabase.com/top.cgi?lang=en)
La traviata
Die Zauberflöte
Carmen
La Bohème
Tosca
Madama Butterfly
Il barbiere di Siviglia
Le nozze di Figaro
Don Giovanni
Rigoletto
Cosi fan tutte is no. 15, followed by Eugene Onegin.
Quote from: North Star on July 21, 2017, 05:04:11 AM
The 10 most often performed operas in 2015/16: (from http://operabase.com/top.cgi?lang=en (http://operabase.com/top.cgi?lang=en))
La traviata
Die Zauberflöte
Carmen
La Bohème
Tosca
Madama Butterfly
Il barbiere di Siviglia
Le nozze di Figaro
Don Giovanni
Rigoletto
Cosi fan tutte is no. 15, followed by Eugene Onegin.
Thanks,
Karlo! You both made it an easier, statistical question, and gainsaid my misdoubt viz. the
K.620 :)
In the composer rankings, I am glad to see Janáček at 17 (and Britten at 16) - but Berlioz is way behind at 36, followed by Prokofiev, and behind Stravinsky!
I've known about this sort of data for opera performances before, but that site is more detailed, I think.
What interests me is the colossal number of performances in Germany, and indeed the German-speaking countries taking into account relative size.
Quote from: ørfeo on July 21, 2017, 06:38:33 AM
I've known about this sort of data for opera performances before, but that site is more detailed, I think.
What interests me is the colossal number of performances in Germany, and indeed the German-speaking countries taking into account relative size.
What is utterly alien to the US is, that any German town of a certain size, they've got a Post Office, a Police Station, and an Opera House. It's absolutely part of the cultural fabric.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 21, 2017, 06:53:21 AM
What is utterly alien to the US is, that any German town of a certain size, they've got a Post Office, a Police Station, and an Opera House. It's absolutely part of the cultural fabric.
It being alien to the US doesn't surprise me. What surprises me far more is that somewhere like Italy doesn't come close to matching.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 21, 2017, 06:53:21 AM
What is utterly alien to the US is, that any German town of a certain size, they've got a Post Office, a Police Station, and an Opera House. It's absolutely part of the cultural fabric.
What would be even greater is, if the Opera House doubled as the Police Station . . . .
Quote from: ørfeo on July 21, 2017, 06:58:33 AM
It being alien to the US doesn't surprise me. What surprises me far more is that somewhere like Italy doesn't come close to matching.
Aye, that is of interest.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 21, 2017, 04:52:21 AM
Here are my guesses:
- Aïda
- Rigoletto
- Il trovatore
- Carmen
- Norma
- La traviata
- La Bohème
- Le nozze di Figaro
- Tosca
- Die Fledermaus
Spot on sir! 🤗
There are some things in those statistics, when you dig into them, that are questionable (Bach St John's Passion?) and some that are downright bad (Beethoven's 9th symphony, Schubert's Winterreise?!?!).
Having said that, all the biggest numbers do seem to be legitimate.
Quote from: ørfeo on July 21, 2017, 06:38:33 AM
I've known about this sort of data for opera performances before, but that site is more detailed, I think.
What interests me is the colossal number of performances in Germany, and indeed the German-speaking countries taking into account relative size.
I recall a quite wonderful performance of
Janacek's Jenufa some years ago - during the summer! - in Aachen!
Small American towns often used to have an "opera house," e.g. a restored one can still be visited outside of Dayton in the village of Clifton:
https://www.facebook.com/village.of.clifton.opera.house/ (https://www.facebook.com/village.of.clifton.opera.house/)
Whether actual operas were in fact staged there, I don't know. Concerts with arias were probably given.
Quote from: ørfeo on July 21, 2017, 07:07:06 AM
There are some things in those statistics, when you dig into them, that are questionable (Bach St John's Passion?) and some that are downright bad (Beethoven's 9th symphony, Schubert's Winterreise?!?!).
Which statistics are you referring to here?
I don't think that the top 10-15 opera statistics are badly skewed by far more opera per capita in Germany, Austria and some other countries because the top contenders (Carmen, Bohème, Traviata etc.) are also very popular in German-speaking countries and The Magic Flute is the most popular German language opera abroad.
There are a few pieces that are far more popular in Germany/Austria than abroad, mainly Haensel und Gretel and Freischuetz but they don't skew the whole picture too badly.
As for opera houses, smaller/middle sized German towns usually have a theater that plays both opera and drama, sometimes ballett as well. They are not big operas like Dresden or Berlin, of course, and they often could not do the big Wagner and Strauss pieces. But they will do Mozart, Verdi, some Puccini or other stuff that does not necessarily need a huge orchestra.
And bigger cities (say 200-300k inhabitants) will usually have opera houses that play Wagner and other big pieces. Of course it depends on several factors, e.g. in the Ruhrgebiet there are so many large cities that they will not all have a big focus on opera but the next decent opera house will not be far away.
Historically the cause seems mainly to be that there were several centuries of many smallish states and residences and after Germany became one political entity a lot of this cultural infrastructure was kept alive because people were really fond of music and opera, I guess. This is also true of Italy but maybe another reason is that Germany is and was more wealthy than Italy and also not as narrowly focussed on opera.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 21, 2017, 08:56:16 AM
Which statistics are you referring to here?
??? The ones on that site. If you go far enough into them you see they are counting performances of works that are not operas.
Quote from: ørfeo on July 21, 2017, 09:02:35 AM
??? The ones on that site. If you go far enough into them you see they are counting performances of works that are not operas.
They might be staged as operas, perhaps? I know that this has been done with the St Matthew Passion (also Schoenberg's Gurrelieder) and I suppose it could be done with Winterreise, but I really struggle to see how you could stage Beethoven's Ninth.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 21, 2017, 06:53:21 AM
What is utterly alien to the US is, that any German town of a certain size, they've got a Post Office, a Police Station, and an Opera House. It's absolutely part of the cultural fabric.
Not sure about the police station.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 21, 2017, 08:56:16 AM
This is also true of Italy but maybe another reason is that Germany is and was more wealthy than Italy and also not as narrowly focussed on opera.
Berlusconi cut most of the subsidies to culture and to opera houses in particular. And those monies havnt come back. A swiss opera lover who sees 80 operas/year in all european countries says that it also did impact the quality of italian productions.
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 21, 2017, 09:11:19 AM
They might be staged as operas, perhaps? I know that this has been done with the St Matthew Passion (also Schoenberg's Gurrelieder) and I suppose it could be done with Winterreise, but I really struggle to see how you could stage Beethoven's Ninth.
You just need people on stage being joyful! ;)
I think this is somehow messed up. It has Messiah at 210. Now there might be an occasional staging of Messiah (although I cannot really imagine it, unlike Hercules at 286) but not that many. And it cannot be just any performance of Messiah because there would be far more.
It is probably performances of pieces like Messiah/Creation/9th symphony that take place in an opera house or theater without any staging that are counted there.
Quote from: ørfeo on July 21, 2017, 07:07:06 AM
There are some things in those statistics, when you dig into them, that are questionable (Bach St John's Passion?) and some that are downright bad (Beethoven's 9th symphony, Schubert's Winterreise?!?!).
Having said that, all the biggest numbers do seem to be legitimate.
Interesting that
St John is so much higher than
St Matthew. 26 & 14 productions of each on the record - considering that they are Easter staples, I can easily accept that there were that many staged productions of each. Same with
The Messiah and Christmas. 29 different staged
Winterreise productions, not so much.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 21, 2017, 04:52:21 AM
nodogen's post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23302.msg1076856.html#msg1076856) set my thoughts to wondering . . . just which 10 would these be? I was going to ask, Well, what about [name of opera]?, and I second-guessed myself—is (e.g.) The Magic Flute really as well-loved as I was supposing?
Here are my guesses:
- Aïda
- Rigoletto
- Il trovatore
- Carmen
- Norma
- La traviata
- La Bohème
- Le nozze di Figaro
- Tosca
- Die Fledermaus
Is
Norma a "loved" opera and if so, by whom?
After just finishing the "Keeper of the Seal" (title bestowed upon Puccini by Verdi, inheritor of the mantle of Italian song), I got more of a heads-up on what makes an opera popular. It's quite simple, actually, the possibility of identifying with the main characters, which is what you don't really get with gods and goddesses. According to the cited poll,
Madame Butterfly is up there in the top ten, and not
Norma, probably because of that very reason.
(One of our new cats, thrust upon us by students now on vacation who can't really take care of him while living in an apartment complex, just jumped on my left arm and stuck his claws in. If Snyprr were here, he could write an epic poem about him.)
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on July 24, 2017, 08:02:18 AM
Is Norma a "loved" opera and if so, by whom?
Yes. Me.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 24, 2017, 08:10:03 AM
Yes. Me.
Me too, but I rate
La Sonnambula higher. It's on my top 5. :)
Quote from: Florestan on July 24, 2017, 08:11:30 AM
Me too, but I rate La Sonnambula higher. It's on my top 5. :)
It's not my 'most' loved opera, but in general, I have come to love much of Bellini.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 24, 2017, 08:10:03 AM
Yes. Me.
I tend to think that musicians would appreciate
Norma more than the general public.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 24, 2017, 08:13:26 AM
It's not my 'most' loved opera, but in general, I have come to love much of Bellini.
One of my favorites opera composers. 8)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 24, 2017, 08:13:26 AM
It's not my 'most' loved opera, but in general, I have come to love much of Bellini.
Add to the list of composers, Donizetti. Out of his 70 operas, many of them were hits then and never lost their popularity.
Quote from: North Star on July 21, 2017, 04:02:50 PM
Interesting that St John is so much higher than St Matthew. 26 & 14 productions of each on the record - considering that they are Easter staples, I can easily accept that there were that many staged productions of each. Same with The Messiah and Christmas. 29 different staged Winterreise productions, not so much.
I doubt that they mean actual stagings. I have heard about stagings of the passions (also balletts) but they are fairly rare. I have never heard about a staging of the Xmas oratorio or Beethoven's 9th. Therefore I believe that they counted also unstaged performances that simply took place in a theater or opera house and therefore appeared on the schedules they used for their statistics.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2017, 08:24:43 AM
I doubt that they mean actual stagings. I have heard about stagings of the passions (also balletts) but they are fairly rare. I have never heard about a staging of the Xmas oratorio or Beethoven's 9th. Therefore I believe that they counted also unstaged performances that simply took place in a theater or opera house and therefore appeared on the schedules they used for their statistics.
Yes, the venue being an opera/theater must be why they're included.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 24, 2017, 08:13:26 AM
It's not my 'most' loved opera, but in general, I have come to love much of Bellini.
Bellini is
great. I Puritani is my favorite. I am about to get I Cappuletti & Montaigu and I Pirata. For this latter one, there is Callas version which is cut so bad it feels like chopped meat, the version of Cabbale (with minor cuts) and the opera rara which is complete but isnt artistically in the same league.
Quote from: North Star on July 21, 2017, 05:04:11 AM
The 10 most often performed operas in 2015/16: (from http://operabase.com/top.cgi?lang=en)
La traviata
Die Zauberflöte
Carmen
La Bohème
Tosca
Madama Butterfly
Il barbiere di Siviglia
Le nozze di Figaro
Don Giovanni
Rigoletto
Cosi fan tutte is no. 15, followed by Eugene Onegin.
The most-often performed may not be the 'most-loved' - if you live in the provinces in the UK, you get few chances to see opera, and might be forgiven for thinking that there only
are those ten operas. If you want to find out about others, you have to buy dvds or emigrate.
Number 3 on the list, 'Carmen', is sometimes despised by true opera buffs, and shows that what makes a performed opera 'most-loved' is the story and its components - character and dramatic structure.
I suppose sales of dvds etc would give a false picture too?
Quote from: Rosalba on August 19, 2017, 01:32:06 AMNumber 3 on the list, 'Carmen', is sometimes despised by true opera buffs, and shows that what makes a performed opera 'most-loved' is the story and its components - character and dramatic structure.
I'd say
Carmen is also proof heaps of good tunes helping an opera become popular, too.
Quote from: North Star on August 19, 2017, 02:49:52 AM
I'd say Carmen is also proof heaps of good tunes helping an opera become popular, too.
Well yes - I think so too! :)
(Was perhaps a little daunted by having heard Carmen sneered at...)
Apart from the fact that the most frequently performed dozen or two as only marginally changed in decades, I think that the selection is not that distorted, i.e. there is no big difference between most performed and most loved (and probably "most-recorded" on CD or DVD neither). Because in Germany and Austria with a lot of opera performances per capita, even in in provincial areas (so their sheer numbers could distort statistics), most of these are also among the most frequently performed, regardless of whether it is a "tourist place" like Dresden or Vienna, an opera in a large but less tourist-centered city like Frankfurt or Stuttgart or a small provincial theater. One can hardly go wrong with those top 10-20 and they are usually also within the means of a smaller theater as far as casting and staging goes.
Quote from: Rosalba on August 19, 2017, 01:32:06 AM
The most-often performed may not be the 'most-loved' - if you live in the provinces in the UK, you get few chances to see opera, and might be forgiven for thinking that there only are those ten operas. If you want to find out about others, you have to buy dvds or emigrate.
Number 3 on the list, 'Carmen', is sometimes despised by true opera buffs, and shows that what makes a performed opera 'most-loved' is the story and its components - character and dramatic structure.
I suppose sales of dvds etc would give a false picture too?
Things have probably changed since I lived up north (born in Darlington). I was a student in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, but would also go to Sunderland, Leeds and York to catch companies such as Scottish Opera, ENO, Glyndebourne Touring and English Opera Group. This was when I first got into opera, and I remember that I would literally try anything. I would go whatever the opera, and it often threw up a few surprises. Operas I assumed I wouldn't like I often enjoyed more than those I thought I would. During this time I was lucky enough to see productions of
The Turn of the Screw
Elegy for Young Lovers
Tristan und Isolde
Pelléas et Mélisande
Idomeneo
Der Rosenkavalier
Lucia di Lammermoor
Un Ballo in Maschera
La Traviata
La Boheme
Werther
Le Nozze di Figaro
The Catiline Conspiracy (Iain Hamilton)
Die Zauberflöte
Aida
Boris Godunov
Eugene Onegin
Il Pirata
Faust
Die lustige Witwe
Die Federmaus
Les Contes d'Hoffmann
Nabucco
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schicchi
Tosca
Il Barbiere di Siviglia
Ariadne auf Naxos
Il Trovatore
Luisa Miller
As you can see, the list includes quite a few operas well outside the mainstream.