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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: nesf on January 17, 2012, 10:26:10 AM

Title: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 17, 2012, 10:26:10 AM
Just curious, I found a thread but it's 4 years old and didn't want to bump it. I'm experimenting with different kinds of classical at the moment for mindfulness mediation. I've found Mozart's Requiem very good, some of Bruckner seems to work as well but not 100% sure yet. Mindful listening is probably something a lot of you do without realising it, i.e. actively listening instead of passively listening and focusing completely on the sensory experience and not letting your mind do its normal tumult of thought on the future and past. It's big in psychology at the moment as an adjunct treatment for a bunch of mental illnesses and suffering from depression (amongst other things) I've been giving it a good try the past 3 or 4 months. If I can combine it with listening to good music, all the better!

I've found that more complex music is better for holding my attention and constantly surprising me. Anyone else find the opposite works best for them?
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 17, 2012, 10:43:08 AM
Why do you use music to meditate may I ask?
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 17, 2012, 10:47:59 AM
Well, for mindfulness the idea is to put your mind into a state focused completely on the present experience (from my understanding). You can do this with any activity, walking, washing the dishes, whatever. I like music so, it's a good match between something I can enjoy and something that's suitable for total focus upon.

For other kinds of meditation something like classical might even be a hindrance. But I'm not using those methods so it's not an issue for me.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 17, 2012, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: nesf on January 17, 2012, 10:47:59 AM
Well, for mindfulness the idea is to put your mind into a state focused completely on the present experience (from my understanding). You can do this with any activity, walking, washing the dishes, whatever. I like music so, it's a good match between something I can enjoy and something that's suitable for total focus upon.

For other kinds of meditation something like classical might even be a hindrance. But I'm not using those methods so it's not an issue for me.

Thank you for your reply. Good luck with your meditation!
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 17, 2012, 10:56:10 AM
Some details here actually: http://ianellis-jones.blogspot.com/2011/01/listening-to-music-mindfully.html
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: jowcol on January 17, 2012, 11:16:17 AM
I like improvised music for meditation.  Modal Jazz (John Coltrane) and Hindustani classical are good. 

Of the "classical" , for some reason Bach and the minimalists work best for me.  Your milage may vary.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: PaulSC on January 17, 2012, 11:21:28 AM
I think giving music your full attention, and following it actively instead of receiving it passively, is a good strategy for listening. But somehow it bothers me to think of this as "using" the music for a purpose such as meditation. I'd rather think of music listening as an end in itself, rather than a means to some other end.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 17, 2012, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 17, 2012, 11:21:28 AM
I think giving music your full attention, and following it actively instead of receiving it passively, is a good strategy for listening. But somehow it bothers me to think of this as "using" the music for a purpose such as meditation. I'd rather think of music listening as an end in itself, rather than a means to some other end.

If your mind doesn't wander, you're probably meditating.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 17, 2012, 11:30:26 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 17, 2012, 11:21:28 AM
I think giving music your full attention, and following it actively instead of receiving it passively, is a good strategy for listening. But somehow it bothers me to think of this as "using" the music for a purpose such as meditation. I'd rather think of music listening as an end in itself, rather than a means to some other end.

Um, well listening actively and focusing on the music is meditating (mindfulness style Buddhism, not Zen Buddhism). More a case of, if you're going to focus completely on the present it might as well be something you enjoy focusing on. 

That, and you can have your cake and eat it, i.e. have listening to music as an end and meditating as an end.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Holden on January 17, 2012, 11:54:12 AM
I use music to aid in my thinking processes. For example, if I need to write a document of some sort, playing music really helps me in forming my words into meaningful prose. Some music works better than others and baroque is particularly good in this regard.

QuoteIt's big in psychology at the moment as an adjunct treatment for a bunch of mental illnesses and suffering from depression (amongst other things)

When I went through my one serious period of clinical depression I refused to take medication for it as I didn't want any of that stuff, with its other side effects, in my system. I don't know why but I turned to the music of J S Bach as a cure and amazingly, it worked! The only music I listened to was Bach - no Chopin or LvB or anything else. The WTC became almost daily listening. Maybe someone else here can explain why this was effective.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 17, 2012, 12:26:54 PM
Quote from: Holden on January 17, 2012, 11:54:12 AM
When I went through my one serious period of clinical depression I refused to take medication for it as I didn't want any of that stuff, with its other side effects, in my system. I don't know why but I turned to the music of J S Bach as a cure and amazingly, it worked! The only music I listened to was Bach - no Chopin or LvB or anything else. The WTC became almost daily listening. Maybe someone else here can explain why this was effective.


Assuming it was listening actively that helped you: The way mindfulness works in depression is that it breaks the cycle of negative thinking that normally spirals out of control when you're depressed. It's getting trapped in your head and all the negative and delusional thoughts that the depression produces that can make depression much more unpleasant to go through. Mindfulness takes you out of your head and keeps you in the present giving you a break from all the crap in your head. Focused listening to Bach would be as good for doing this as any focused breathing exercise. The evidence I've seen for mindfulness in depression is that people who meditate regularly (in whatever way) get depressed less often, need less medication and require fewer appointments with their psychiatrist per year. They were really pushing this on us last time I was in psychiatric hospital as a drug free, risk free way to make life a bit more liveable. Usually as a compliment to other therapies like CBT or medication. It can't replace either talk therapy or medication completely though. It just helps, and when you're depressed if you're able to meditate it can bring some relief to your day and stop a bad day turning into a terrible one.


You can see this is people without mental illness who use music to take their mind off something that's bothering them or to escape from the stress of the world etc. It's the same principle, it's just more acute a problem for someone who is depressed. You can see this again with people who get some relief from depression at work but who deteriorate badly when they're back home and left to their own devices (i.e. when they have a chance to get lost in their own thinking again).
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 17, 2012, 12:37:27 PM
What does meditating to music means? I always found myself unable to move my attention away from the music, unless its something i don't like, in which case i simply don't listen to it. The idea of listening to music while doing something else has always been strange to me. I just find it irritating after a while and simply turn it off.

The best place for meditation is nature, the shower and the toilet bowl. 8)
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 17, 2012, 12:43:42 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 17, 2012, 12:37:27 PM
What does meditating to music means? I always found myself unable to move my attention away from the music, unless its something i don't like, in which case i simply don't listen to it. The idea of listening to music while doing something else has always been strange to me. I just find it irritating after a while and simply turn it off.

The best place of meditation is nature, the shower and the toilet bowl. 8)

This form of meditation is all about just focusing on your present action and not letting your mind wander. So in this case it's about focusing intently on the music, listening actively and keeping bringing your mind back when it wanders. To take great notice of the experience of listening, the feeling of the bass notes, the way a note fades slowly and so on. As I said originally, I imagine a lot of you are doing this anyway when you listen to music! Other forms of meditation are very different.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: jowcol on January 17, 2012, 02:00:32 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 17, 2012, 12:37:27 PM
What does meditating to music means? I always found myself unable to move my attention away from the music, unless its something i don't like, in which case i simply don't listen to it. The idea of listening to music while doing something else has always been strange to me. I just find it irritating after a while and simply turn it off.
I read a book on psychological aspects of music that was pretty forgettable, except for one point that he made.  That, while some people would have very clear emotional reactions to music, some would have an "immersive" reaction in which they'd be basically drowning in it, and get more a a timeless feel where they would not be aware of their normal surroundings, etc. He didn't put much stock in it- but I thought that was the most valid point-- as I have that reaction a lot.



Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 17, 2012, 12:37:27 PM
The best place for meditation is nature, the shower and the toilet bowl. 8)

I couldn't have said it better, except that nature may be overrated.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: John Copeland on January 17, 2012, 04:49:40 PM
Yes nesf, very interesting.  I do this quite often.  Avro Part is very useful for this, as are things like the Tallis variations (V Williams) and by all the Gods, Bach!  Bach is very complex!    :D   Bach is more complex than the Classical period that came after him, and is quite brilliant for honing mindfulness.  Interesting that as an aetheist I find the best music to meditate by is music written for, or inspired by, religion.  Like Professor Dawkins said, 'I am a most religious non-believer.'  But I guess thats for another thread... :o
I am with you on this, beliefs or no beliefs.  Music can edify the spirit, and some of it we can use to do so.   0:)
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 18, 2012, 12:35:24 AM
Yeah, same here, committed agnostic (invisible tea pot agnostic) and no time for healing crystals and all that stuff. I found this book rather interesting: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Confession-Buddhist-Atheist-Stephen-Batchelor/dp/0385527071/ref=pd_cp_b_2 (it's about secular Buddhism for the non-believers)

And yeah, sacred music is great, believer or no.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: jowcol on January 18, 2012, 03:03:30 AM
Quote from: nesf on January 18, 2012, 12:35:24 AM
Yeah, same here, committed agnostic (invisible tea pot agnostic) and no time for healing crystals and all that stuff. I found this book rather interesting: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Confession-Buddhist-Atheist-Stephen-Batchelor/dp/0385527071/ref=pd_cp_b_2 (it's about secular Buddhism for the non-believers)

And yeah, sacred music is great, believer or no.

Buddhism is about as far from theistic as you can get, and doesn't require much to believe in other than the human condition eventually involves sickness, old age and death.  One of my favorite treatises is by a well respected Theravadan Monk called 'No Religion'
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: jowcol on January 18, 2012, 03:05:08 AM
Quote from: Scots John on January 17, 2012, 04:49:40 PM
Yes nesf, very interesting.  I do this quite often.  Avro Part is very useful for this, as are things like the Tallis variations (V Williams) and by all the Gods, Bach!  Bach is very complex!    :D   Bach is more complex than the Classical period that came after him, and is quite brilliant for honing mindfulness.  Interesting that as an aetheist I find the best music to meditate by is music written for, or inspired by, religion.  Like Professor Dawkins said, 'I am a most religious non-believer.'  But I guess thats for another thread... :o
I am with you on this, beliefs or no beliefs.  Music can edify the spirit, and some of it we can use to do so.   0:)

One thing I'd say is that Bach does tend to keep a very even beat, and that provides an repetitive anchor as you get lost in the polyphony.  (I'm not being critical here-- I LOVE Bach.)
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 18, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
Quote from: jowcol on January 18, 2012, 03:03:30 AM
Buddhism is about as far from theistic as you can get, and doesn't require much to believe in other than the human condition eventually involves sickness, old age and death.  One of my favorite treatises is by a well respected Theravadan Monk called 'No Religion'

The issues I've seen is with the deva and other spiritual rather than theistic beliefs bothering some committed agnostics and theists. Personally I just find it all fairly interesting though I badly need to read more about it. :)
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Bogey on January 18, 2012, 06:40:38 PM
Vintage film footage of me meditating to my music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uv1PxInJnY&feature=related
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: jowcol on January 19, 2012, 02:20:43 AM
Quote from: nesf on January 18, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
The issues I've seen is with the deva and other spiritual rather than theistic beliefs bothering some committed agnostics and theists. Personally I just find it all fairly interesting though I badly need to read more about it. :)

There has been discussion on another thread you may wish to check out.  A short answer is that Buddhism does not discourage other faiths/beliefs if they lead towards enlightenment, but the Buddha was avoided excess speculation about the afterlife, etc. 

Anyway--  if you wish to pursue this further, I'd go to this thread here...


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19529.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19529.0.html)

Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 19, 2012, 07:26:22 AM
Quote from: nesf on January 18, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
The issues I've seen is with the deva and other spiritual rather than theistic beliefs bothering some committed agnostics and theists. Personally I just find it all fairly interesting though I badly need to read more about it. :)

Try poking around here. Tons of free info.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 19, 2012, 07:55:08 AM
Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: BobsterLobster on January 19, 2012, 09:00:26 AM
Hmm... coming next... watching TV for meditation.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: BobsterLobster on January 19, 2012, 09:03:36 AM
I should add that when I did a Vipashana course, one of my main problems was turning off the music in my head which burst into life after a few days and distracted me from my meditation.
Nobody would claim that being absorbed in watching a film is a valid and worthwhile form of meditation, so what is the difference with music?!
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 19, 2012, 09:27:14 AM
An interesting topic to google, Bobster.

The fewer distractions the better for newbies.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: PaulSC on January 19, 2012, 09:28:18 AM
Quote from: BobsterLobster on January 19, 2012, 09:03:36 AM
Nobody would claim that being absorbed in watching a film is a valid and worthwhile form of meditation,

Is that true?
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 19, 2012, 09:33:55 AM
Quote from: BobsterLobster on January 19, 2012, 09:03:36 AM
Nobody would claim that being absorbed in watching a film is a valid and worthwhile form of meditation, so what is the difference with music?!

Well to start, define valid and worthwhile. What are your goals with meditation and similar. Mindful living is somewhat different to formal meditative practice both are applications of meditation techniques though.

Edit: Actually defining meditation would be the start. I'd go with a scientific definition of the brain being in a particular state. You might have quite a different one and we'd both end up with quite different opinion on what is and what is not meditation.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2012, 09:36:56 AM
I could just about see watching a film meditationally.  Would perhaps depend upon the tone of the film, and off the top of my head, I should think that a movie which I have already seen a few times would be more conducive . . . but I should not call the act at all impossible.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 19, 2012, 09:50:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 19, 2012, 09:36:56 AM
I could just about see watching a film meditationally.  Would perhaps depend upon the tone of the film, and off the top of my head, I should think that a movie which I have already seen a few times would be more conducive . . . but I should not call the act at all impossible.

I'd see it as possible to actively watch a film and pay attention to all the stimuli in watching it as at the very least approaching a meditative state. This isn't watching a film in the sense I think BobsterLobster means though I imagine.

Edit: I should say that I'm not sure if it'd be possible to follow the story or anything in what I describe above.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: PaulSC on January 19, 2012, 10:08:01 AM
Quote from: nesf on January 19, 2012, 09:33:55 AM
Actually defining meditation would be the start. I'd go with a scientific definition of the brain being in a particular state.
Rhode Island? ;D
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 19, 2012, 10:12:52 AM
Quote from: nesf on January 18, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
The issues I've seen is with the deva and other spiritual rather than theistic beliefs bothering some committed agnostics and theists. Personally I just find it all fairly interesting though I badly need to read more about it. :)

The problem with theist religions is not that they are theist per-se, but that they are overtly exoteric. I don't want to derail this thread, but if you are curious try to look for perennial philosophers like Guenon, Schuon and Martin Lings. You'll see there exist a lot of common elements among all major religions, and that from an esoteric point of view they all tend to resemble Indian religions such as Buddhism. Sufism for instance is exactly such a case, and is a good example considering the insane level of exoteric dogmatism which plagues the Muslim world. 
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2012, 10:13:48 AM
Would it be a matter of the brain being in a particular state, or of its performong certain operations? Or of non-performance? (I could qualify there, I think . . . .)
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 19, 2012, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 19, 2012, 10:08:01 AM
Rhode Island? ;D

:P
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 19, 2012, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: nesf on January 17, 2012, 12:43:42 PM
This form of meditation is all about just focusing on your present action and not letting your mind wander. So in this case it's about focusing intently on the music, listening actively and keeping bringing your mind back when it wanders. To take great notice of the experience of listening, the feeling of the bass notes, the way a note fades slowly and so on. As I said originally, I imagine a lot of you are doing this anyway when you listen to music! Other forms of meditation are very different.

I suppose what you are referring to has more to do with concentration then meditation as understood in a typical sense. In that respect, i tend to favor contrapuntal music the most, such as is the case with the Renaissance masters, Bach, or even late artists like Brahms or Enescu. The effort required to comprehend this music has an almost purifying effect on my mind.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 19, 2012, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 19, 2012, 10:13:48 AM
Would it be a matter of the brain being in a particular state, or of its performong certain operations? Or of non-performance? (I could qualify there, I think . . . .)

From my understanding there's a fair amount of evidence that the brain has two basic modes of operation, one dealing with awareness of the environment and one dealing with thought, analysis and so on. With mindfulness you are purposefully putting your mind into the first mode and work to keep it there. The reason this is so helpful for depression, stress, pain relief etc is that all of these are worse when the brain is in the latter mode.

This is all from psychology sources not traditional sources, so the above may not be agreed upon by someone coming from the latter starting point.


Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 19, 2012, 10:15:31 AM
I suppose what you are referring to has more to do with concentration then meditation as understood in a typical sense. In that respect, i tend to favor contrapuntal music the most, such as is the case with the Renaissance masters, Bach, or even late artists like Brahms or Enescu. The effort required to comprehend this music has an almost purifying effect on my mind.

What do you understand to be meditation? (curious)
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2012, 10:28:19 AM
Quote from: nesf on January 19, 2012, 10:22:08 AM
From my understanding there's a fair amount of evidence that the brain has two basic modes of operation, one dealing with awareness of the environment and one dealing with thought, analysis and so on. With mindfulness you are purposefully putting your mind into the first mode and work to keep it there. The reason this is so helpful for depression, stress, pain relief etc is that all of these are worse when the brain is in the latter mode.

This is all from psychology sources not traditional sources, so the above may not be agreed upon by someone coming from the latter starting point.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 19, 2012, 10:49:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 19, 2012, 10:28:19 AM
Thanks.

Kind of stuff I'm reading about it at the moment: http://www.wisebrain.org/papers/MindfulnessPsyTx.pdf

Most of the stuff I know about this comes from psychologists telling me about it rather than seeing the papers myself. Trying to rectify this but a) no journal access anymore and b) depressed at the moment so concentration isn't the best.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: jowcol on January 19, 2012, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: BobsterLobster on January 19, 2012, 09:03:36 AM
I should add that when I did a Vipashana course, one of my main problems was turning off the music in my head which burst into life after a few days and distracted me from my meditation.
Nobody would claim that being absorbed in watching a film is a valid and worthwhile form of meditation, so what is the difference with music?!

It is said the sound is the hardest sensory input to tune out while meditating.  All the harder to turn of the music that plays in ones head.  At least in my case, that is VERY hard.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: jowcol on January 19, 2012, 11:36:11 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on January 19, 2012, 10:15:31 AM
I suppose what you are referring to has more to do with concentration then meditation as understood in a typical sense. In that respect, i tend to favor contrapuntal music the most, such as is the case with the Renaissance masters, Bach, or even late artists like Brahms or Enescu. The effort required to comprehend this music has an almost purifying effect on my mind.

Another possible definition is to lose the sense of one's normal temporal "self"-- ideally this would occur after the concentration.  Much as one is to start by focusing on one's breathing in traditional meditation, it is a tool that lets one reach a point where the awareness of the self no longer gets in they way.  If you are no longer concentrating on  the music-- but "being the music"

I was on a mailing list for an improvisational rock band I like, and one person posted that the reason he liked the group so much was that he could pass out during an song and wake up while it was still playing.  Which is sort of the experience I have-- minus the substance abuse...
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: BobsterLobster on January 19, 2012, 12:20:28 PM
Quote from: jowcol on January 19, 2012, 11:36:11 AM
Another possible definition is to lose the sense of one's normal temporal "self"-- ideally this would occur after the concentration.  Much as one is to start by focusing on one's breathing in traditional meditation, it is a tool that lets one reach a point where the awareness of the self no longer gets in they way.  If you are no longer concentrating on  the music-- but "being the music"

I was on a mailing list for an improvisational rock band I like, and one person posted that the reason he liked the group so much was that he could pass out during an song and wake up while it was still playing.  Which is sort of the experience I have-- minus the substance abuse...

I easily enter this state with music, I would imagine everyone finds this quite easy while watching particularly good TV, a film, an absorbing book, etc. This isn't meditating IMO. I also meditate from time to time... this is a completely different state of awareness. The point is to increase awareness and mindfulness. Absorbing oneself in a piece of music is to shut down awareness of everything else. This is not enlightening or helpful to most people. The ego will be happy though in the illusion of meditating without the usual 'monkey mind' chatter. It can also be relaxing. But it is not a useful tool for increasing awareness and mindfullness.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 19, 2012, 03:06:13 PM
Quote from: BobsterLobster on January 19, 2012, 12:20:28 PM
I easily enter this state with music, I would imagine everyone finds this quite easy while watching particularly good TV, a film, an absorbing book, etc. This isn't meditating IMO. I also meditate from time to time... this is a completely different state of awareness. The point is to increase awareness and mindfulness. Absorbing oneself in a piece of music is to shut down awareness of everything else. This is not enlightening or helpful to most people. The ego will be happy though in the illusion of meditating without the usual 'monkey mind' chatter. It can also be relaxing. But it is not a useful tool for increasing awareness and mindfullness.

I think we're talking about different things. Becoming absorbed in a piece of music is something different, to me, to focusing your awareness on the sensation of listening. The former is quite passive compared to the latter and with the latter you get all the usual "monkey mind" chatter that you get with breathing and bodily meditations.  There's an exercise where you focus your awareness on the music and on your breathing at the same time and try to hold that awareness. This is the kind of awareness I'm talking about, rather than that of merely getting absorbed in a piece of music. Otherwise I'd be calling headbanging at a heavy metal concert meditation. :P

If I've been explaining myself poorly up til now I apologise, my concentration has been abysmal for a few weeks.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Ataraxia on January 19, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
Quote from: nesf on January 19, 2012, 03:06:13 PM
If I've been explaining myself poorly up til now I apologise, my concentration has been abysmal for a few weeks.

Hang in there and keep hanging out here. Thank you.
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: nesf on January 19, 2012, 03:19:18 PM
Quote from: Ataraxia on January 19, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
Hang in there and keep hanging out here. Thank you.

Thank you. Though, to be honest I don't want this place to be somewhere where I vent my frustrations rather than a place where I come to discuss something I enjoy. :)
Title: Re: Anyone else into mindful listening or other forms of meditation using music?
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2012, 05:49:48 AM
That's cool. And don't worry if, as we discuss things, there are times when the two sides of the discussion don't quite match.  I think of that as part of the interest . . . .