GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Classical Music for Beginners => Topic started by: Mutatis-Mutandis on January 29, 2011, 03:30:08 PM

Title: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Mutatis-Mutandis on January 29, 2011, 03:30:08 PM
Hello,

I've just started trying to really get into classical music. But, I want to listen to pieces I'd most likely enjoy rather than those I wouldn't, so I figured I'd give you some information on my musical tastes, and go from there.

The genre I most love is heavy metal, mostly for its passion, intricacy, and musicianship. I like music that displays good musicianship and is well-written and more complex, rather than simplistic. I like music that is powerful. After metal, I love progressive rock (i.e., the 70s prog-rock bands like Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, and Pink Floyd). Progressive metal is my favorite particular genre (bands like Opeth and Between the Buried and Me toping my list). I also like to listen to jazz and jazz-fusion. Aside from that (and usually in small doses), I like classic rock, contemporary rock, and a few indie bands.

I have listened to some Stravinsky and enjoyed it, mainly Firebird. It's a bit too meandering in sections, but the ending climax is just awesome. I've also listend to Gustav Holst's Planets suite, and really love that, especially the first piece inspired by Mars.

So, where do you suggest I go from here?
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Daverz on January 29, 2011, 05:28:37 PM
Try some more Stravinsky like Petrouchka and The Rite of Spring.

Some other things to try:

Janacek: Sinfonietta
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition
Prokofiev: Romeo & Juliet (suites or excerpts)
Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra
Bizet: Carmen Suites
Rimsky Korsakov: Russian Easter Overture
Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances
Ravel: La valse
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Opus106 on January 29, 2011, 10:10:45 PM
Wagner?

http://www.youtube.com/v/r3Q2IhEUCNE#t=279s


Welcome aboard. :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: knight66 on January 30, 2011, 03:38:58 AM
Prokofiev wrote a piece called Romeo and Juliet. Highlights of it fit onto a single disc. This might be something you would enjoy. It has lyrical passages, but here are two dramatic ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljOMXgfflRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz8i68lpBpc

A possible recording:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prokofiev-Royal-Scottish-National-Orchestra/dp/B002EYBNT2/ref=sr_1_10?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1296390540&sr=1-10

Prokofiev also wrote film music, some of the best. His music to the silent film Alexander Nevsky was turned into a cantata that is now often performed. There is a long sequence called 'Battle on the Ice', very exciting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy84N_U5jw0

Possible recording

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prokofiev-Alexander-Nevsky-Lieutenant-Kij%C3%A9/dp/B000001GQC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1296391089&sr=1-1

Mike



Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Mutatis-Mutandis on January 31, 2011, 06:28:28 PM
Thanks for the recommendations, everyone. And thanks for that awesome Vid, Opus. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: jochanaan on February 01, 2011, 06:59:04 AM
If you're into metal, you'd probably like the music of the Second Viennese School: Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern; and you'll like Varèse even more.  Varèse in particular makes some of your "metal masters" look tame. :D This is not your "average" classical music! ;D
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bhodges on February 01, 2011, 11:52:20 AM
And definitely check out Iannis Xenakis, whose work seems to be very popular with metal fans. Here's a fine version of Metastasis, one of his early works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI

--Bruce
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 02, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
It isn't what newbies want to hear, but the music isn't boring... The problem is their tastes. Music is a language and you can't expect to be fluent right off the bat. Sometimes you have to extend yourself andwork to fully understand a piece. Read the liner notes. Google up info on the piece and the composer. Listen carefully several times. Think about what you hear.

If you do that you'll be richly rewarded because with each piece you master the understanding of, it will be easier to master the next. Yourtastes will open up, which is a lot better than trying to pinpoint what you initially like.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Daverz on February 02, 2011, 04:20:45 PM
I don't think that knowing someone likes Metal really gives you any idea what they might respond to.  My own list is pretty much the same one I give every time.  8)

But maybe he'll respond more to Vivaldi or Monteverdi or Dufay.

I also suggest listening to internet radio stations.  I like KUSC.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Mutatis-Mutandis on February 02, 2011, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: Daverz on February 02, 2011, 04:20:45 PM
I don't think that knowing someone likes Metal really gives you any idea what they might respond to.  My own list is pretty much the same one I give every time.  8)

True, but I do say more than just, "I like metal."

And I agree completely, bigshot, but if I'm going to get into classical, I want to start where I will find the most enjoyment. I guess that sounds fickle, but it is what it is. If I start with something I don't like, chances are I won't continue, especially since I can't devote a ton of time to studying classical music (or, I guess I should say I don't really want to).
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 03, 2011, 10:03:39 AM
If you don't intend to study the music, classical isn't for you. This stuff is generally over 100 years old. It's a part of a totally different place and time. If you don't want to expend the effort to understand it in its own context, you're not going to get much out of it, and it will likely seem pretty boring. If you just want nice orchestral background music, the best source for that is the radio.

Perhaps later in life you might see the value in addressing classical music on its own terms, but until then, I'd recommend saving your money and just listen to the radio.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2011, 10:34:28 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 03, 2011, 10:03:39 AM
If you don't intend to study the music, classical isn't for you. This stuff is generally over 100 years old. It's a part of a totally different place and time. If you don't want to expend the effort to understand it in its own context, you're not going to get much out of it, and it will likely seem pretty boring. If you just want nice orchestral background music, the best source for that is the radio.

Perhaps later in life you might see the value in addressing classical music on its own terms, but until then, I'd recommend saving your money and just listen to the radio.
I have to disagree here. He doesn't say he won't expend effort but that he doesn't have a lot of time to devote and that is something many of us face at one time or another.  But there is certainly a lot you can get out of the music with a relatively small amount of 'poking around' shall we say. More important is to just enjoy listening to the music. Even as a kid, I used to love the imagery that many songs created in my mind as I listened. His knowledge of other genres will help him too. And when we like something, we tend to spend more time on it anyway. I've rarely researched a piece before listening to it, and that hasn't stopped me from loving the music.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Rinaldo on February 04, 2011, 01:44:48 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on February 03, 2011, 10:34:28 AMMore important is to just enjoy listening to the music.

Amen to that. All you need is a spark, something you overhear and love and then follow its trail, wherever it leads you. The context is usually helpful and might open your ears to something you didn't find interesting at first, but music is abstract – one can go crazy about a 5 or 500 year old piece without knowing a single thing about its origin.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Lethevich on February 04, 2011, 04:04:54 AM
Quote from: Mutatis-Mutandis on February 02, 2011, 09:27:46 PM
True, but I do say more than just, "I like metal."

No worries, it does help a little - it's amazing how many metal fans wash up on the shores of Classical Island: me included. I would suggest the tone poems of Richard Strauss and Jean Sibelius - here are a few samples:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ht5x83HYPLU http://www.youtube.com/v/bxsvU2fBJgA
http://www.youtube.com/v/yGA867V2EvA http://www.youtube.com/v/KqNyhAGz1oI

The fourth I link is a piece of chamber music for piano and string quartet. When I was initially exploring classical I completely ignored this medium, much to my later regret. Welcome to the forum, by the way!
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: The Diner on February 04, 2011, 04:52:29 AM
BEETHOVEN
BRAHMS
\m/
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: The Diner on February 04, 2011, 05:04:39 AM
Also and especially...
Beethoven Symphonies 5, 7 and 9
Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky
Sibelius's violin concerto
A disc of Wagner's orchestral highlights
Brahms' German Requiem and Symphony 4
Bach Mass in B Minor
Saint-Saens' Danse Macabre

[post 666]  >:D
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: The Diner on February 04, 2011, 05:25:33 AM
Dude, that was post 666.  :o

Very metal.  8)
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 04, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
The way people listen to popular music is entirely different than the way people listen to classical. Popular music is all about riffs and hooks that grab you on first hearing. The music is designed to be listened to informally. Most people multitask with their iPod on shuffle. The length rarely exceeds a casual attention span- under five minutes. People usually have favorites that change with the mode of the day. A lot of popular music that is over a year or two old is forgotten, replaced by current hits.

None of that applies to classical music. In fact, if you attempt to listen to classical music that way, you'll end up bored and impatient for the music to hurry up and get to the "good parts".

The main reason newbies have trouble figuring out how to get into classical music is because they try to listen to it like other types of music. That just doesn't work. Although there is an emotional level to the music that is direct and immediate, there is also a structural and contextual level to the music that is absolutely necessary to try to grasp if you are going to appreciate it.

The great pianist, Schnabel once explained that he resisted recording because his respect for Beethoven was so great that he couldn't bear the thought that someone might listen to the Hammeklavier in their bathrobe at the kitchen table eating a ham sandwich. That's a really funny idea, but there's a germ of truth to it too.

We all want to share our passion for music with others, but we need to be honest with them that there is more involved with an appreciation of classical music than just finding some classical tunes that sound like heavy metal. Structurally, the nursery rhyme repetition of power riffs is a million miles away from the rigid form of the sonata or the long form architecture of a Mahler symphony. If one tries to address these sorts of pieces in the same way, one is bound to be disappointed.

Learning about anything new in this world requires effort. You don't sit down at a piano and automatically know how to play, and just because you can hold a pencil doesn't mean you know how to draw. Understanding and appreciating classical music, fine art, ballet or any other sophisticated and multilayered art form requires a willingness to put in the time and effort to learn about what you're looking at.

Listening to classical music with ignorance about what it really is can only lead to an ignorant reaction to it.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 04, 2011, 11:19:50 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 04, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
The way people listen to popular music is entirely different than the way people listen to classical. Popular music is all about riffs and hooks that grab you on first hearing. The music is designed to be listened to informally. Most people multitask with their iPod on shuffle. The length rarely exceeds a casual attention span- under five minutes. People usually have favorites that change with the mode of the day. A lot of popular music that is over a year or two old is forgotten, replaced by current hits.

None of that applies to classical music. In fact, if you attempt to listen to classical music that way, you'll end up bored and impatient for the music to hurry up and get to the "good parts".

The main reason newbies have trouble figuring out how to get into classical music is because they try to listen to it like other types of music. That just doesn't work. Although there is an emotional level to the music that is direct and immediate, there is also a structural and contextual level to the music that is absolutely necessary to try to grasp if you are going to appreciate it.

The great pianist, Schnabel once explained that he resisted recording because his respect for Beethoven was so great that he couldn't bear the thought that someone might listen to the Hammeklavier in their bathrobe at the kitchen table eating a ham sandwich. That's a really funny idea, but there's a germ of truth to it too.

We all want to share our passion for music with others, but we need to be honest with them that there is more involved with an appreciation of classical music than just finding some classical tunes that sound like heavy metal. Structurally, the nursery rhyme repetition of power riffs is a million miles away from the rigid form of the sonata or the long form architecture of a Mahler symphony. If one tries to address these sorts of pieces in the same way, one is bound to be disappointed.

Learning about anything new in this world requires effort. You don't sit down at a piano and automatically know how to play, and just because you can hold a pencil doesn't mean you know how to draw. Understanding and appreciating classical music, fine art, ballet or any other sophisticated and multilayered art form requires a willingness to put in the time and effort to learn about what you're looking at.

Listening to classical music with ignorance about what it really is can only lead to an ignorant reaction to it.
Again, I must disagree. We are all able to appeciate much music knowing little to nothing about it. How do you get into classical without listening to it first? You are suggesting that one must study it first, and that is not the way it usually happens. I would say that studying 'sonata form', for example,  doesn't mean anything until one has heard it.

For example, I knew nothing about Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony (#6) the first time I heard it. But I came away with all sorts of impressions and ideas. Most importantly, I came away motivated, interested, impassioned, and excited. Music is not just an intellectual exercise (although it can be that too), but an emotional one. That is why I think anyone can love classical music. Knowing jazz in itself (as the OP lists as a liked genre) is an 'in' as one can immediately appreciate composers who incorporate elements of jazz in their writing. From there, one can appreciate the precursors of jazz and so on.

But one can also hear a piece that is totally new and have a new world open. This is where the OP and many people are today. Even many of us that love classical music are still there in some of the sub-genres of classical such as the Second Viennese School or Baroque for example.

Even people with a short attention span can love classical music, listening to waltzes and mazurkas or marches. A short attention span is something we accuse people of across a wide range of the arts (or younger generation), and this is something that can be learned. But one must begin somewhere. And with all the people that like film scores and other genres, I don't think it is such a difficult issue that you seem to feel it is.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bhodges on February 04, 2011, 11:29:24 AM
Quote from: ukrneal on February 04, 2011, 11:19:50 AM
Again, I must disagree. We are all able to appeciate much music knowing little to nothing about it. How do you get into classical without listening to it first? You are suggesting that one must study it first, and that is not the way it usually happens. I would say that studying 'sonata form', for example,  doesn't mean anything until one has heard it.

Yes, I have to disagree, as well (and agree with the above). I have many friends whose entry into classical music was through very nontraditional portals, e.g., a rock drummer who discovered the second Viennese school. After falling in love with Berg, Schoenberg and Webern, he is now working his way back (and forward), catching up on other composers. But he's not a scholar; he just likes the way the music sounds.

And then there are people who really don't care for Beethoven or Bach, or Mendelssohn or Mahler (at least, at first), who are totally enthralled by Ligeti, or Gesualdo, or Berio, or David Lang. I think there are many different entry points into the universe of "classical" music--perhaps as many as there are listeners.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: knight66 on February 04, 2011, 11:33:42 AM
You can tell that Bruce really, really means it.

I was dumped into classical music around the age of 10, left to watch Rossini's William Tell while my father socialised with friends in the cast. Same evening Traviata.....had no background in it, no knowledge of it. I did not dash out and look for lots of classical music, but interest started then. I agree, learning comes later, if you feel like it. It enriches the experience for some, not for others.

Mike

Mike

I really, really mean it too.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bhodges on February 04, 2011, 11:36:28 AM
Quote from: knight on February 04, 2011, 11:33:42 AM
You can tell that Bruce really, really means it.

...

Mike

Mike

I really, really mean it too.

;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Scarpia on February 04, 2011, 11:38:13 AM
In my case, incidental exposure did not stick, but learning a bit about it did the trick.  But it was not one before the other.  The two processes were coincident.  Listen, be curious, learn, listen to more, be curious, learn more, etc.   Nowadays it should be easier because you can just google the stuff.  You don't have to go the the library and read actual books. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: knight66 on February 04, 2011, 11:44:15 AM
I did learn a bit from the good linear notes and always read the texts carefully. Now that is more difficult with a lot of discs giving next to no information. I supplemented it by reading Gramophone, then books. But to be honest, my googling tends to be too much hit and run without the digging that a decent book provides.

Mike
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Scarpia on February 04, 2011, 11:47:17 AM
Quote from: knight on February 04, 2011, 11:44:15 AM
I did learn a bit from the good linear notes and always read the texts carefully. Now that is more difficult with a lot of discs giving next to no information. I supplemented it by reading Gramophone, then books. But to be honest, my googling tends to be too much hit and run without the digging that a decent book provides.

For music I usually dispense with Google and look in Wikipedia.  But linear notes were certainly a good resource, and in the days of LPs you could usually read them in the record store before buying the album.

Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Mirror Image on February 04, 2011, 02:20:06 PM
Quote from: Mutatis-Mutandis on January 29, 2011, 03:30:08 PM
Hello,

I've just started trying to really get into classical music. But, I want to listen to pieces I'd most likely enjoy rather than those I wouldn't, so I figured I'd give you some information on my musical tastes, and go from there.

The genre I most love is heavy metal, mostly for its passion, intricacy, and musicianship. I like music that displays good musicianship and is well-written and more complex, rather than simplistic. I like music that is powerful. After metal, I love progressive rock (i.e., the 70s prog-rock bands like Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, and Pink Floyd). Progressive metal is my favorite particular genre (bands like Opeth and Between the Buried and Me toping my list). I also like to listen to jazz and jazz-fusion. Aside from that (and usually in small doses), I like classic rock, contemporary rock, and a few indie bands.

I have listened to some Stravinsky and enjoyed it, mainly Firebird. It's a bit too meandering in sections, but the ending climax is just awesome. I've also listend to Gustav Holst's Planets suite, and really love that, especially the first piece inspired by Mars.

So, where do you suggest I go from here?

There's a multitude of directions you can go after hearing some of Stravinsky and Holst. Here are a few works that I think you would enjoy:

Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10
Sibelius: Pohjola's Daughter
Ravel: Piano Concerto in G major
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6 "Pathetique"
Rachmaninov: Symphony No. 2
Honegger: Pacific 231
Prokofiev: Scythian Suite
Revueltas: Sensemaya
Villa-Lobos: Genesis
Debussy: La Mer
Bruckner: Symphony No. 9
Respighi: Church Windows
Barber: Violin Concerto
Schoenberg: Verklarte Nacht (version for string orchestra)
Webern: Im Sommerwind

These should keep you busy for awhile. Listen with an open-mind.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Mutatis-Mutandis on February 04, 2011, 07:37:41 PM
Wow guys, thanks a bunch! This will definitely keep me occupied for some time.

I do want to address what bigshot says, though:

Quote from: bigshot on February 04, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
The way people listen to popular music is entirely different than the way people listen to classical. Popular music is all about riffs and hooks that grab you on first hearing. The music is designed to be listened to informally. Most people multitask with their iPod on shuffle. The length rarely exceeds a casual attention span- under five minutes. People usually have favorites that change with the mode of the day. A lot of popular music that is over a year or two old is forgotten, replaced by current hits.

None of that applies to classical music. In fact, if you attempt to listen to classical music that way, you'll end up bored and impatient for the music to hurry up and get to the "good parts".

The main reason newbies have trouble figuring out how to get into classical music is because they try to listen to it like other types of music. That just doesn't work. Although there is an emotional level to the music that is direct and immediate, there is also a structural and contextual level to the music that is absolutely necessary to try to grasp if you are going to appreciate it.

The great pianist, Schnabel once explained that he resisted recording because his respect for Beethoven was so great that he couldn't bear the thought that someone might listen to the Hammeklavier in their bathrobe at the kitchen table eating a ham sandwich. That's a really funny idea, but there's a germ of truth to it too.

We all want to share our passion for music with others, but we need to be honest with them that there is more involved with an appreciation of classical music than just finding some classical tunes that sound like heavy metal. Structurally, the nursery rhyme repetition of power riffs is a million miles away from the rigid form of the sonata or the long form architecture of a Mahler symphony. If one tries to address these sorts of pieces in the same way, one is bound to be disappointed.

Learning about anything new in this world requires effort. You don't sit down at a piano and automatically know how to play, and just because you can hold a pencil doesn't mean you know how to draw. Understanding and appreciating classical music, fine art, ballet or any other sophisticated and multilayered art form requires a willingness to put in the time and effort to learn about what you're looking at.

Listening to classical music with ignorance about what it really is can only lead to an ignorant reaction to it.

I don't think this is meant to apply to me directly, but if it is, you are making a lot of assumptions as to what I listen to and how I listen to it. I don't listen to a lot of "casual" listening--and, if you knew much about modern metal, you'd know very little of it is for the casual listener. It's intricate, complex, and contains a lot of virtuosic musicianship. But beyond that, a lot of the progressive rock (and metal) I listen to contains many 10+ minute songs and complicated compositions.

Really, the above is a pompous attitude displayed by people (a minority, that is) who are fans of high art, or of any art for that matter. It's a thinking that is along the lines of, "You don't get it, and since I do get it, and have devoted my life to getting it, how dare you try and claim you appreciate it as much as me?" It happens all the time when someone's favorite obscure band hits it big. They will claim that they were there "from the beginning," and that that makes them a "true fan."

I just want to get into classical music.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 04, 2011, 08:07:39 PM
Actually, I do know about progressive rock and heavy metal. But I also know about Mahler, Harlem jazz, country swing, Cuban mambo, rockabilly, bebop, 50s pop vocals, opera and a few dozen other musical styles. When I compare one type of music to another, it's relative and it's based on the decades of serious study of music that I've done. I'm not saying this to be arrogant. I'm giving advice based on my experience. There is music that is well suited to listening to without making an effort to understand its context, and there's music that doesn't respond well to that. Classical music is boring if you insist on listening to it in ignorance.

My experience, for what that's worth, is to find someone who really knows the music you're looking to investigate. Don't feel threatened by them because they know something you don't. Pump them for info. Get tips. Follow them. And immerse yourself into the particular music you've chosen and the information about it as much as you can. Learn it inside and out. Then move on to the next kind of music and do the same. There is an ocean of amazing music out there, but you will never know that unless you extend the effort to appreciate the music on its own terms.

In case you haven't noticed it, on the internet there are people who know what they're talking about right there cheek and jowl with those who haven't a clue. They both offer opinions. It really isn't hard to tell which is which. I know that the current generation embraces the hippie concept that "feeling" art is all you need, but you will feel it much stronger if you turn on your brain and think about it. Yes, that requires work. It requires asking the right questions, and following the advice when its given. An old school approach Is worth it.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Rinaldo on February 04, 2011, 10:20:32 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 04, 2011, 08:07:39 PMI know that the current generation embraces the hippie concept that "feeling" art is all you need, but you will feel it much stronger if you turn on your brain and think about it.

Who said anything about turning it off?
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Lethevich on February 05, 2011, 02:56:38 AM
Bigshot: I feel that your ideas are more likely to lose potential classical fans than gain them. Let the music speak for itself: many people begin exploring music just by listening to the "tunes", but as they get to know what they are listening to, then they explore more deeply. To expect somebody looking to try to gain a foothold into the genre to treat it like work rather than pleasure is a poor suggestion.

I'm not saying totally ignore anything other than selected hits, but I feel your wall of text-style suggestions on how to listen are likely to discourage some from even trying.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 05, 2011, 10:52:27 AM
It says something about our times when three paragraphs constitute a wall of text.

If all it takes is just listening to the music, there's no point to discussion boards like this. There is a big difference between taste and appreciation. Everyone has a particular taste in things... My favorite color is red. I don't like the sound of the harmonica. Spicy food makes me sick... But these sorts of personal reactions don't apply to anyone else who might  like to eat chili on a green table while Blind Lemon Jefferson records play in the background. The opinions that do matter are the ones based on knowledge, not taste.

I don't think I'm scaring off anyone who wouldn't be scared off anyway. People can post to forums that they'd like recommendations for classical music that sounds like heavy metal or hip hop or electronica, and folks can give them suggestions of Messiaen or Holst or Bartok. But the truth is, classical sounds like classical and you have to be willing to come to it on its own terms. 99.9% of the people who aren't willing to do that are going to go away saying to themselves, "I don't like classical music" but that's not because of anything I said. It's because their approach dooms them from the start.

All of us who love classical music and have an appreciation for it have sat down and read liner notes. We've googled wikipedia pages on composers, and we've discussed the music in Internet forums like this. That's how we developed our appreciation. It isn't being rude or arrogant to suggest to other people that if they'd like to cultivate an appreciation of classical music that they might want to do the same.

A newbie has heard classical music before that obviously appeals to them on some basic level. If not, they wouldn't be here. So the next step is to ask what the next step is. The next step is to pick an area to start and start seriously listening and reading about it. If you aren't willing to do that, you might as well just turn the radio to a classical station and absorb it randomly and without context and see what appeals to your personal tastes. You don't need recommendations to do that.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 11:05:09 AM
Well, whilst I might not care for it spelled out and put baldly like that, the fact is that this is how I learned to love classical music too. I had always enjoyed the sound of virtuoso violin playing (still do!) so I discovered that violin concertos were a likely place to hear what I liked. In the process I discovered well over a hundred composers, ranging from Vivaldi to Shostakovich. In some of them, their violin concerti are still all I have of their music (Alban Berg, for example). In others, I have virtually their complete works (Vivaldi, for example). But in the process, I learned some stuff. I wish that Wikipedia had existed back then!

In any case, however you approach it, you will never learn to truly love classical music unless you learn something about it as you listen. That said, you have to start listening someplace, and it should be with things you are familiar with. If it is electronica, then so be it. Some people here live for that. But inevitably you must stretch out and grab more of what's out there. You never know where you will end up. :)

8)

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Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood / Beznosiuk / Kelly - K 297c 299 Flute & Harp Concerto in C 2nd mvmt - Andantino
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 05, 2011, 11:40:29 AM
You never know where you will end up

Boy! You can say that again!

With me, the "eureka moment" came when I happened to hear Cab Calloway's "Some of These Days" on the radio. Up to then, I had listened mostly to the same sorts of music my friends listened to... Talking Heads, Pink Floyd, the Clash, etc. Then this song comes on the radio that sounds like it's from the planet Mars. It has all the energy and excitement I could ever hope for. I lived one block from Rhino Records in Westwood, so I walked over there and asked the guy at the counter if they had "Some of These Days" by Cab Calloway. He said "sure" and pointed me to the jazz stacks. I bought that record and took it home and played it over and over trying to figure it out.

I went back to Rhino a few days later and told the guy there, "I like Cab Calloway. What else should I listen to?" he told me the style of music was called Harlem Jazz, and I would also like Duke Ellington, Fats Waller and 30s Louis Armstrong. I got some more records and started branching out. I got ahold of Cab's autobiography and a book on Louis Armstrong and I devoured them, jotting down the names of other musicians mentioned to check them out too. That led me to Bix and Benny... which led me to Billie Holiday and Lionel Hapton and Gene Krupa... Suddenly, there was more music I liked than I could keep up with.

Jazz led me to Latin jazz, which led me to Cuban mambo. At the same time I was discovering jump blues and early r&b. I was awash in incredible music that I never imagined I would like. That's when I said to myself, "well, if I like jazz, why not see if classical has something for me too?" I started with the Russians, and pretty soon I was on to Stravinsky and Beethoven and Mendelssohn and Bach. The whole world opened up like a flower.

Since then, I've explored folk music and easy listening and 50s rock n roll and soul and even (gasp!) COUNTRY MUSIC! It all is packed with treasures like I never imagined. I found out that a lot of the things I learned about jazz helped me understand classical better, and country music taught me things about jazz. It all connects into one big language with a million local dialects.

But the music had been there all the time, and it was great and had great things to say long before I started listening to it. So what had changed?

I had.

If you aren't willing to change, music will always be a tight, closed pool of the same ol' same ol'. Anything outside of your limited frame of reference will seem foreign or boring. But if you do make the effort to understand and appreciate, ALL kinds of music will have something to say to you, and there won't be enough hours in the day to hear everything you want to hear just once... much less enough times to absorb it.

I sit here in my house surrounded by tens of thousands of records and CDs covering entire walls, and I'm as happy as a pig in mud because I will have exciting new music to discover until the day I die. Call me arrogant, but I'd never go back to listening just to the tiny batch of stuff I listened to in college. That crap is a million miles behind me now.

I'll go out of my way to help others on their own road of musical discovery, because there are some massively knowledgable people who did that for me. But I won't have the patience for people who just want to satisfy some arbitrary personal taste without the willingness to go the extra mile to learn about the music they're listening to. They don't need advice. All they need is a radio.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 11:58:50 AM
Well, now you sound absolutely positive, which becomes you far more than negative. :)

My earliest music experiences were Big Band Swing (from my mother) and Mozart & Haydn (from my father). I was one of those very fortunate people who had music blessed on me in the cradle. I completely agree, you must be open to new listening adventures. I nearly made the mistake of shutting things out in my late teens when I got away from "my parents' music" and got stuck in a groove for 20 years or so. I am pleased for myself that I was able to shake that off and get back into multi-modal listening. Even though I am primarily Classical these days, it is spread over 250 years, so that's not really limited as much as it could be. :)

8)

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Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Robert Levin - Bia 130 Op 16 Quintet in Eb for Fortepiano & Winds 1st mvmt - Grave - Allegro
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 05, 2011, 11:59:11 AM
One more quick thing. If there are any newbies who are interested in really exploring classical music... If you are willing to invest $150 for a basic library of the core repertoire with brilliant performances and great sound, just ask. $150 for enough music to keep you busy for a year. All you have to do is ask and let me know you're willing to put in the effort to understand and appreciate it. I'll turn you on to the deal of the century. I'm also willing to share tips if you find anything in there that you'd like to explore further.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 12:22:50 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 04, 2011, 08:07:39 PM
There is music that is well suited to listening to without making an effort to understand its context, and there's music that doesn't respond well to that. Classical music is boring if you insist on listening to it in ignorance.

My experience, for what that's worth, is to find someone who really knows the music you're looking to investigate. Don't feel threatened by them because they know something you don't. Pump them for info. Get tips. Follow them. And immerse yourself into the particular music you've chosen and the information about it as much as you can. Learn it inside and out. Then move on to the next kind of music and do the same. There is an ocean of amazing music out there, but you will never know that unless you extend the effort to appreciate the music on its own terms.

In case you haven't noticed it, on the internet there are people who know what they're talking about right there cheek and jowl with those who haven't a clue. They both offer opinions. It really isn't hard to tell which is which. I know that the current generation embraces the hippie concept that "feeling" art is all you need, but you will feel it much stronger if you turn on your brain and think about it. Yes, that requires work. It requires asking the right questions, and following the advice when its given. An old school approach Is worth it.

Let's flip this about for a bit. How much "learning classical music inside and out" is "enough" before you're entitled to listen to it? Do you have to read composer biographies and/or album notes, play Chopin mazurkas at the piano, study harmony and counterpoint, read full scores and reduce them at the piano on sight, read a full-scale music history like Taruskin or Grout, understand the structure of sonata form well enough to identify the start of the second subject in the Eroica (not as clear-cut as you might think), orchestrate Beethoven sonata movements for a full orchestra, write a four-voice fugue, compose an opera? Can you do or have you done all the above?

Not everyone chooses to be "knowledgeable," and there are all kinds of levels of knowledge when it comes to music. What's more, people tend to approach it in the messiest, least systematic ways. I don't mind if people remain "ignorant" so long as they are attentive listeners. Some of the best writing on music I've seen on Internet forums has come from people without much training or education.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 08, 2011, 01:05:34 PM
My point wasn't that there is a minimum amount of knowledge required to appreciate classical music. It was that if you are not willing to read liner notes and learn about the lives of the composers and forms, you aren't going to get much out of it. Obviously, your understanding will grow and your musical horizons will broaden as you learn more and more. I learn new things about music I'm already familiar with all the time.

I've always tried to learn about music from people who know a lot more about it than I do. I don't feel threatened by that. I see it as an opportunity to learn. Making an effort to learn and understand is very important. If you don't feel that way, and you aren't willing to address the music on its own terms, listening to classical music will be a pointless exercise, much like reading a book in a language you don't speak.

We are all born ignorant with ignorant tastes and opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. but there's no honor in choosing to remain that way. If only there were enough days in a life to eliminate all of our ignorance...
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Bulldog on February 08, 2011, 01:31:59 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 05, 2011, 11:59:11 AM
One more quick thing. If there are any newbies who are interested in really exploring classical music... If you are willing to invest $150 for a basic library of the core repertoire with brilliant performances and great sound, just ask. $150 for enough music to keep you busy for a year. All you have to do is ask and let me know you're willing to put in the effort to understand and appreciate it. I'll turn you on to the deal of the century. I'm also willing to share tips if you find anything in there that you'd like to explore further.

What do I get for my $150?
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 08, 2011, 02:04:06 PM
The 60 CD Living Stereo box set which constitutes a basic library of core repertoire in great performances and audiophile binaural sound. It's the best bargain out there for people interested in investigating classical music for the first time.

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Stereo-60-Collection-Box/dp/B003UCPEJ2/

That box will keep a music lover busy for a very long time.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 02:09:11 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 08, 2011, 02:04:06 PM
The 60 CD Living Stereo box set which constitutes a basic library of core repertoire in great performances and audiophile binaural sound.

To my knowledge Living Stereo never made any binaural recordings.

I don't think it is a very good set for a new listener because RCA Living Stereo focused disproportionately on popular 19th century repertoire at the expense of anything older than Beethoven or the least bit edgy. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 08, 2011, 05:50:30 PM
Core repertoire is a lot better introduction to classical music than edgy. The Living Stereo series had some Handel and Bach represented, as well as Gould and Copland. Most Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence were recorded with just two microphones. Some had a center channel too, but the intent of the mix was to capture the natural perspective of an orchestra from the best seat in the house.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Scarpia on February 08, 2011, 10:04:04 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 08, 2011, 05:50:30 PM
Core repertoire is a lot better introduction to classical music than edgy. The Living Stereo series had some Handel and Bach represented, as well as Gould and Copland. Most Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence were recorded with just two microphones. Some had a center channel too, but the intent of the mix was to capture the natural perspective of an orchestra from the best seat in the house.

What does Mercury have to do with your incorrect claim that Living Stereo recordings are binaural?  As far as I know, RCA never issued a single binaural recording.  What does the fact that that Living Stereo had "some Handel" have to do with the fact that there is Handel in that box?  No Mozart or Haydn either, and one short piece by Bach.   One could do worse, but with $150 bucks one could do a LOT better than that box.   I think a single box that is claimed to be an ideal introduction shouldn't be dominated by a few artists, and should have a broad spectrum of music, not be dominated by music from one era.  And frankly, there is a lot more to classical music than Reiner/Chicago and Heifitz.

Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Grazioso on February 09, 2011, 05:06:02 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 04, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
The way people listen to popular music is entirely different than the way people listen to classical. Popular music is all about riffs and hooks that grab you on first hearing. The music is designed to be listened to informally. Most people multitask with their iPod on shuffle. The length rarely exceeds a casual attention span- under five minutes. People usually have favorites that change with the mode of the day. A lot of popular music that is over a year or two old is forgotten, replaced by current hits.

None of that applies to classical music. In fact, if you attempt to listen to classical music that way, you'll end up bored and impatient for the music to hurry up and get to the "good parts".

I'm a bit late to the party, but I also felt the need to question this. While I understand the thinking behind it, it doesn't mirror my experience. You can listen to classical or rock music either casually or with rapt attention. When I listen to rock music, I am indeed just listening and not multitasking, and I'm paying attention, as best I can, to every little detail. (And I do so not out of some abstract sense of duty, but rather because music naturally engages my full attention.)

It's true that any music can be enjoyed on extra levels if some degree of effort or study is put into it. For me, having studied music history and some theory has opened up new approaches to listening and learning about music. Dramatically more so, having played rock guitar and bass has made me a vastly more skilled and focused listener to all types of music, not just rock. (And conversely, it's made wonder if I can ever fully appreciate a violin or piano piece, not having played those instruments.)

And to the original poster, fwiw, you're part of a big community: over the decades, I've encountered many metal fans who are drawn to classical. The musics do share quite a bit.

Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Scarpia on February 09, 2011, 05:14:30 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on February 09, 2011, 05:06:02 AM
I'm a bit late to the party, but I also felt the need to question this. While I understand the thinking behind it, it doesn't mirror my experience. You can listen to classical or rock music either casually or with rapt attention. When I listen to rock music, I am indeed just listening and not multitasking, and I'm paying attention, as best I can, to every little detail. (And I do so not out of some abstract sense of duty, but rather because music naturally engages my full attention.)

It's true that any music can be enjoyed on extra levels if some degree of effort or study is put into it. For me, having studied music history and some theory has opened up new approaches to listening and learning about music. Dramatically more so, having played rock guitar and bass has made me a vastly more skilled and focused listener to all types of music, not just rock. (And conversely, it's made wonder if I can ever fully appreciate a violin or piano piece, not having played those instruments.)

And to the original poster, fwiw, you're part of a big community: over the decades, I've encountered many metal fans who are drawn to classical. The musics do share quite a bit.

Corresponds to my experience rather closely, to the extent that I still listen to pop music these days.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 09, 2011, 08:27:05 AM
I would agree with Mr. Scarpia. Classical music is in a very unusual position as what is often considered the "core" repertory is an artificially restricted body of work dominated by 19th-century orchestral music and opera. Why that should be the case is beyond my understanding (it's as if the "core" repertory of literature excluded Shakespeare and Dante, and the "core" repertory of the visual arts omitted Rembrandt, Vermeer, Goya, and Velázquez but was based largely on the French impressionists), but this 60-CD set simply perpetuates that very distorted slice of the musical pie. Not only is there virtually no Mozart, Haydn, or Bach, but also nothing earlier than that and no 20th-century music except for some very conservative work from composers like Rachmaninoff, Puccini, Copland, and Respighi. We get three complete Puccini operas taking up 6 CDs, but The Rite of Spring doesn't even make it, let alone The Marriage of Figaro or the B minor Mass. There's a total of two solo piano discs, but no chamber music, choral music, or Lieder. I would also want to see more diversity in performance than Reiner, Heifetz, Rubinstein, Munch, et al., though it's understandable that a single label would include only those artists under contract to it. Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of great things in this collection, quite a few of which are as good as it gets. But like most packages of this type, it seems driven more by corporate interests than by an in-depth understanding of composers, artists, and repertory.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bhodges on February 09, 2011, 08:35:19 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on February 09, 2011, 08:27:05 AM
Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of great things in this collection, quite a few of which are as good as it gets. But like most packages of this type, it seems driven more by corporate interests than by an in-depth understanding of composers, artists, and repertory.

Yep, yep, yep--agree wholeheartedly.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Scarpia on February 09, 2011, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on February 09, 2011, 08:27:05 AM
I would agree with Mr. Scarpia. Classical music is in a very unusual position as what is often considered the "core" repertory is an artificially restricted body of work dominated by 19th-century orchestral music and opera. Why that should be the case is beyond my understanding (it's as if the "core" repertory of literature excluded Shakespeare and Dante, and the "core" repertory of the visual arts omitted Rembrandt, Vermeer, Goya, and Velázquez but was based largely on the French impressionists), but this 60-CD set simply perpetuates that very distorted slice of the musical pie. Not only is there virtually no Mozart, Haydn, or Bach, but also nothing earlier than that and no 20th-century music except for some very conservative work from composers like Rachmaninoff, Puccini, Copland, and Respighi. We get three complete Puccini operas taking up 6 CDs, but The Rite of Spring doesn't even make it, let alone The Marriage of Figaro or the B minor Mass. There's a total of two solo piano discs, but no chamber music, choral music, or Lieder. I would also want to see more diversity in performance than Reiner, Heifetz, Rubinstein, Munch, et al., though it's understandable that a single label would include only those artists under contract to it. Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of great things in this collection, quite a few of which are as good as it gets. But like most packages of this type, it seems driven more by corporate interests than by an in-depth understanding of composers, artists, and repertory.

Clearly the set is directed at Living Stereo groupies, and is not intended as an introduction to classical music.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 09:28:57 AM
What is a Living Stereo groupie? Someone who thinksn that Chicago under Reiner and Boston under Munch were among the greatest orchestras and conductors on record? If so, count me in. I think you're just being argumentative with that comment.

Everyone I've known who wanted to get into classical music was interested in finding out about the music they'd heard little bits of all their life, but never knew what the pieces were called. That means core 19th century repetoire... Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Debussy and Schubert. If a newbie already has an idea that they want to start with Stockhusen or Motets, sure, there are better places to start than this set. But I've never met anyone who wanted to start with 12 tone rows myself. Someone who bought this set could stand to supplement it with some Bach and Mozart and a few more modern pieces, and eventually music outside the core. That's what being a classical music lover is all about. The box is just a starting point.

You might think about a better way to spend $150 to start out. Try to boil down a better beginning point and let us know what you come up with.

As for background listening, just imagine if that was ALL you are willing to do with classical music. We had a newbie who said he didn't have time and wasn't willing to make an effort to learn about the music. How much is he going to get out of it with that approach? It's a bit like having Shakespere's plays on the TV in the next room while you do a crossword puzzle. It's fine to pet people on the head and defend their right to remain steadfastly ignorant, but you aren't doing them any favors.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Scarpia on February 09, 2011, 09:56:54 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 09:28:57 AM
What is a Living Stereo groupie? Someone who thinksn that Chicago under Reiner and Boston under Munch were among the greatest orchestras and conductors on record? If so, count me in. I think you're just being argumentative with that comment.

Everyone I've known who wanted to get into classical music was interested in finding out about the music they'd heard little bits of all their life, but never knew what the pieces were called. That means core 19th century repetoire... Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Debussy and Schubert. If a newbie already has an idea that they want to start with Stockhusen or Motets, sure, there are better places to start than this set. But I've never met anyone who wanted to start with 12 tone rows myself. Someone who bought this set could stand to supplement it with some Bach and Mozart and a few more modern pieces, and eventually music outside the core. That's what being a classical music lover is all about. The box is just a starting point.

You might think about a better way to spend $150 to start out. Try to boil down a better beginning point and let us know what you come up with.

As for background listening, just imagine if that was ALL you are willing to do with classical music. We had a newbie who said he didn't have time and wasn't willing to make an effort to learn about the music. How much is he going to get out of it with that approach? It's a bit like having Shakespere's plays on the TV in the next room while you do a crossword puzzle. It's fine to pet people on the head and defend their right to remain steadfastly ignorant, but you aren't doing them any favors.

Actually there have been several threads that have address the issue I've bolded, including this one.   This set may be "just a starting point" but I honestly think it is rather a bad one, since it does not include most of the music that first drew me towards classical music, such as the late Mozart symphonies,  the Brandenburg Concerti, the Rite of Spring, the Brahms Symphonies.  Why chose a "starting point" which omits these essential things?  And despite the fact that few will serioulsly dispute the quality of Reiner's work, to base the set on recordings of a few artists is not an advantage. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Leon on February 09, 2011, 10:05:49 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 08, 2011, 01:05:34 PM
My point wasn't that there is a minimum amount of knowledge required to appreciate classical music. It was that if you are not willing to read liner notes and learn about the lives of the composers and forms, you aren't going to get much out of it. Obviously, your understanding will grow and your musical horizons will broaden as you learn more and more. I learn new things about music I'm already familiar with all the time.


I generally agree more with your side of the argument than those who are opposing your postings.  But, I would not be as sure of the idea that learning is a crucial aspect to appreciating classical music or any other art.  That said, for myself, it follows naturally and immediately that upon discovering some new music or style or composer, etc., I then next want to find out as much as I can about the period, style, etc.  This helps me to put the music in context and also affords me some perspective on the music that I while I liked immediately was liking it in a vacuum.

Not that that is a bad thing - for some people, appreciation is simply what they do without any need for context other than one they create as they experience the music or whatever.

As to the box set you suggested, I agree that for someone absolutely new to classical music could be a good basic collection - but I think it is too much money for a beginner and too limited in scope for a serious fan.  I am not sure who it appeals to.

Thread duty: Naxos has a series of "Discover Music of the [...] Period (http://www.amazon.com/Discover-Music-Classical-Roman-Hoffstetter/dp/B000B6N6BS/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1297277771&sr=1-2)" which are budget priced 2-CD collections.  Caveat emptor - they do not include many complete works, but would provide (for a small investment) an introduction to a wide variety of music that one could then supplement with complete performances after tasting the selections.

Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 10:12:19 AM
When I was a kid back in the 70s, there was a commercial on late night TV for a KTel record set of classical music bleeding chunks. It had John Williams (not the conductor, the actor who replaced Sebastian Cabot on Family Affar) in a smoking jacket and ascot sitting in an oversized wing back chair, intoning lines like "Remember these familiar themes..." then they would play ten second bits of a couple of dozen classical "tunes". I'll never forget Williams lowering his pipe and looking earnestly into the camera and saying, "Did you know that Strangers in Paradise is actually Polivetsian Dance number two by Borodin?" my friends and I would adopt a phony English accent and recite that line over and over on the schoolyard. It never failed to get a laugh.

I'm sure that set would be an abomination to me now. But when I think back, I can distinctly remember as a 12 year old wishing I had $19.95 (payable in three easy installments) to buy that set and find out about all that great music. Unfortunately, I didn't and my classical music introduction had to wait until college when I bought Karajan's Ring cycle, an introduction to classical that I wouldn't necessarily recommend, but it got me on the road.

As much as I know about classical music now, and I still learn more all the time, there is a certain soft spot in my heart for the Nutcracker, Unfinished Symphony, Pathetique and Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn. These are the pieces I heard ten second snippets of in a commercial forty years ago and said to myself, "Hey! I heard that one in a Bugs Bunny cartoon!"

If I'm going to be a music snob, I'd rather be the one that sits in the wingback chair puffing on a pipe and earnestly discussing the link between popular music and Borodin. I don't want to be the one who dismisses a whole century's worth of popular music because it isn't fashionable. Classical music can be just as fun as the Lone Ranger's theme song and "Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda". It doesn't have to be as complex as calculus to be good. I hope I never forget that.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 09, 2011, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 09:28:57 AM
As for background listening, just imagine if that was ALL you are willing to do with classical music. We had a newbie who said he didn't have time and wasn't willing to make an effort to learn about the music. How much is he going to get out of it with that approach? It's a bit like having Shakespere's plays on the TV in the next room while you do a crossword puzzle. It's fine to pet people on the head and defend their right to remain steadfastly ignorant, but you aren't doing them any favors.
Actually, that is not quite what he said. He said he had limited time. So I really think we are just mis-communicating a bit and are probably closer than it seems.

As to starting sets, wow, this is just so difficult. There is no 'perfect' set to start with. My first thought was you might be talking about the Chandos set, but that lacks any Mozart or Beethoven for example, and would need to be supplemented (though quality is pretty good). 111 Part 2 from DG is a possibility, though this also focuses on post-classical. It's also a bit random. I think a mix of single discs and smaller sets would work best myself, but that would take a little time just to pick the right combo. Here's one I love, and would be great as part of a starting group - and don't be misled by the stupid name (some great music AND great performances  - just need a few more like this covering other composers for a solid intro):
[asin]B00001X59W[/asin]
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2011, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: Leon on February 09, 2011, 10:05:49 AM
Thread duty: Naxos has a series of "Discover Music of the [...] Period (http://www.amazon.com/Discover-Music-Classical-Roman-Hoffstetter/dp/B000B6N6BS/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1297277771&sr=1-2)" which are budget priced 2-CD collections.  Caveat emptor - they do not include many complete works, but would provide (for a small investment) an introduction to a wide variety of music that one could then supplement with complete performances after tasting the selections.

Those CDs actually supplement books on the same topics. With only about 100-200 pages, they nicely serve the purpose of introducing the reader to the famous and some not-so-famous composers, their music and the culture of the times in relation to the music. The writing is non-technical, and is quite engaging (in the Classical Era volume, which is, so far, the only one I have read). At certain points in the book, there are suggestions of works, and in particular movements, which display some aspect of the style of a composer or some school, which you can either listen online, at Naxos' website (64 kbps) or by playing that CD.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Scarpia on February 09, 2011, 10:24:54 AM
$15 instead of $150, and you get 111 individual movements from a very wide spectrum of works, then you can find other works by composers that struck your fancy.

[asin]B0040G44E8[/asin]

Seems to me like a decent place to start.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 10:29:19 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 08, 2011, 02:04:06 PM
The 60 CD Living Stereo box set which constitutes a basic library of core repertoire in great performances and audiophile binaural sound. It's the best bargain out there for people interested in investigating classical music for the first time.

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Stereo-60-Collection-Box/dp/B003UCPEJ2/

That box will keep a music lover busy for a very long time.

Thanks for telling me what I get for my $150.  I have no doubt that it's an excellent box set, but it does seem rather limiting with all those romantic-era compositions. 

If I was new to classical music, I'd want to survey early music on up to contemporary to find those eras and styles that most caught my attention.  Spending $150 on a limited repertoire from one label just wouldn't do the trick.  Ultimately, I think that the box you recommend is best for those who already have it in their head that 19th century music is the most favorable period. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 10:35:21 AM
111 classical tunes on six CDs for $19.99! KTel Lives! I wonder if they'd let me make the commercial for them?

One more funny thing I remember from when I was first starting out... I remember believing that a recording wasn't good unless it had the title in a big yellow box on the cover. It must have had something to do with the German language. When you see the word "gesselschaft" after a label's name it just HAS to be good! I accumulated a good sized chunk of DGG LPs before I saw the error of that one!
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
"It does seem rather limiting with all those romantic-era compositions"

I'm going to be laughing about that line all day!

Imagine how constricting it must feel to listen to a century's worth of Romantic era music when one is used to the depth and breadth of heavy metal!
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2011, 10:43:44 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 10:29:19 AM
If I was new to classical music, I'd want to survey early music on up to contemporary to find those eras and styles that most caught my attention.

If you're new to classical music, there's a very good chance that you'd be surprised to know that "classical" music is still being composed these days. :D

I think all this brouhaha being made about the 60-CD set is only with retrospect of being seasoned listeners. Not every newbie is going to care much about interpretation (there's a...um, friend of mine who doesn't do, too :P) nor whether the music being played is in- or out-side the "core" repertoire. Think of it this way: once the music within the set has been listened to many times, the person is likely to ask for suggestions, at which point others can chime in with their favourite recording of Palestrina, or Poulenc, or Boulez.

It is, of course, a different matter altogether whether every newbie would wish to spend $150 as a first step in their introduction to this music. In that case, there are various avenues (not necessarily illegal ;)) where one can access a lot of music for very little or no money at all.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 10:46:37 AM
Yay! I looked up John Williams on wikipedia and look what I found...

Outside his film career, Williams gained fame as the star of a television commercial for 120 Music Masterpieces, a four-LP set of classical music excerpts from Columbia Records. This became the longest-running nationally seen commercial in U.S. television history, for 13 years from 1971 to 1984. It began, "I'm sure you recognise this lovely melody as 'Stranger in Paradise.' But did you know that the original theme is from the Polovetsian Dance No. 2 by Borodin?"
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2011, 10:47:00 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
"It does seem rather limiting with all those romantic-era compositions"

I'm going to be laughing about that line all day!

Imagine how constricting it must feel to listen to a century's worth of Romantic era music when one is used to the depth and breadth of heavy metal!

:)  Yes, what a blow! Of course, I only listen to 1700-1900 so I have my own limitations to deal with. However, I have to agree with you, next to my own method of finding a genre I liked and exploring at will, I tend to favor your recommendation. I haven't the slightest issue with "standard rep"; it did get to be that for a good reason. And even though I was inherently cheap and money had a different value then, I bet I paid more than $150 for my first 60 CD's!   

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 003 Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Andante moderato
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 10:50:47 AM
"there are various avenues (not necessarily illegal ) where one can access a lot of music for very little or no money at all."

Boy! I need to know about that myself! After over 15,000 LPs and almost as many CDs, I've spent a heck of a lot of money on music. Now I find out I've been doing it wrong! Aargh!
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 10:55:29 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 10:40:54 AM
"It does seem rather limiting with all those romantic-era compositions"

I'm going to be laughing about that line all day!

I like making people happy.

Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2011, 10:57:58 AM
Quote from: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 10:50:47 AM
"there are various avenues (not necessarily illegal ) where one can access a lot of music for very little or no money at all."

Boy! I need to know about that myself! After over 15,000 LPs and almost as many CDs, I've spent a heck of a lot of money on music. Now I find out I've been doing it wrong! Aargh!

I only said that everyone new to the music may not be willing to put in that much. There's nothing wrong about it, splurge all you want. 8)
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bhodges on February 09, 2011, 10:59:34 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 09, 2011, 10:57:58 AM
I only said that everyone new to the music may not be willing to put in that much. There's nothing wrong about it, splurge all you want. 8)

That's what I was going to add. I think amassing a collection of recordings is fine, and for sonics, ideal.

But in 2011, if I were pointing someone (especially younger) toward samples of different music, composers, artists, etc., I'd suggest YouTube!

E.g., just finished listening to a fantastic performance of Lutoslawski's Cello Concerto (with surprisingly "present" sound, considering what is sometimes found on the site), with a terrific young cellist whom I'd never heard of. If a cello enthusiast came to me for recommendations, I'd point him/her to that in a millisecond.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 11:08:31 AM
Quote from: bhodges on February 09, 2011, 10:59:34 AM
That's what I was going to add. I think amassing a collection of recordings is fine, and for sonics, ideal.

But in 2011, if I were pointing someone (especially younger) toward samples of different music, composers, artists, etc., I'd suggest YouTube!
--Bruce

Yes, YouTube and other websites are great sources for a new listener.

When I was a kid back in the 1950's, I didn't have the benefit of a computer or websites.  However, I would take public transportation to the Boston Public Library which had a ton of recordings and some listening booths.  I'd try out different recordings and take home those I found appealing.  As it happened, I found composers such as Shostakovich the best for me at that time.  My dad, who preferred the usual romantic era suspects, didn't care for my selections - I got a big kick out of that. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 11:09:47 AM
"I only listen to 1700-1900"

You should make a list of what you'd consider core repertoire for 1700-1800. I know I'd find it useful to fill in some gaps in my collection. I've taken the shotgun approach to that period... By picking up all of the more obvious works then supplementing it with giant box sets of Bach, Haydn, Mozart, etc. It's worked well for me, but everyone can always use a list of hot tips to check out.

Maybe someday I'll get through all those box sets... But there's a certain comfort in knowing that there are still CDs on the shelf you haven't listened to yet. Gotta prepare for those rainy days!

One other thing I discovered that I'm sure evokes gasps of horror from the hoi polloi is the Franklin Mint series of LPs titled "The 100 Greatest Recordings of All Time". What a great title! The thing is, it actually does a fairly decent job of living up to it. Each of the 100 boxes has two LPs of material from various labels pressed on high quality virgin red vinyl. They also include books with extensive liner notes on the composers and works. No bleeding chunks- complete works. In the day, these albums cost over $50 apiece, but today they sell on eBay for $2 a disk. Most of them were acquired by rich people who never played them, so it's a great source for immaculate pressings without having to count eyes on the logo or squint at the numbers in the runoff groove. For newbies with a turntable, it's a cheap gold mine.

OK... I said "Franklin Mint". Go ahead and mock me now folks. I'm a big boy. I can take it!
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Marc on February 09, 2011, 11:12:34 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 11:08:31 AM
Yes, YouTube and other websites are great sources for a new listener.

When I was a kid back in the 1950's, I didn't have the benefit of a computer or websites.  However, I would take public transportation to the Boston Public Library which had a ton of recordings and some listening booths.  I'd try out different recordings and take home those I found appealing.  As it happened, I found composers such as Shostakovich the best for me at that time.  My dad, who preferred the usual romantic era suspects, didn't care for my selections - I got a big kick out of that.

Ha! Libraries!
I still use them, you know.

Topic duty: although I myself immediately got hooked on Bach at the age of 12, in most cases I advice to grab some Rossini Ouvertures and the Carmina Burana by Orff. In mose cases, people were happy with that. :)
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Szykneij on February 09, 2011, 11:49:03 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 11:08:31 AM
Yes, YouTube and other websites are great sources for a new listener.

When I was a kid back in the 1950's, I didn't have the benefit of a computer or websites.  However, I would take public transportation to the Boston Public Library which had a ton of recordings and some listening booths. 

Blue line?
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 11:53:07 AM
Quote from: Szykniej on February 09, 2011, 11:49:03 AM
Blue line?

Well, I was coming in to Boston from Revere - don't remember the line but it didn't take more than about 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 11:54:46 AM
Quote from: Marc on February 09, 2011, 11:12:34 AM
Ha! Libraries!
I still use them, you know.

Topic duty: although I myself immediately got hooked on Bach at the age of 12, in most cases I advice to grab some Rossini Ouvertures and the Carmina Burana by Orff. In mose cases, people were happy with that. :)

I couldn't tolerate Bach when I was 12.  Now, I would be rather satisfied to listen to only Bach.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Szykneij on February 09, 2011, 11:58:48 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 11:53:07 AM
Well, I was coming in to Boston from Revere - don't remember the line but it didn't take more than about 15 minutes.

Yes --  I thought I remembered you mentioning of Kelly's Roast Beef at some point in the past, so the Blue Line it was!
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 12:02:24 PM
Quote from: Szykniej on February 09, 2011, 11:58:48 AM
Yes --  I thought I remembered you mentioning of Kelly's Roast Beef at some point in the past, so the Blue Line it was!

My wife and I went to visit one of our sons last summer who now lives in Waltham.  We took his car and visited a few spots on the North Shore.  Had a lunch at Kelly's and it was as good as I remembered.  Of course, the food prices were much higher than 40 years ago.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: 71 dB on February 09, 2011, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 09, 2011, 11:54:46 AM
I couldn't tolerate Bach when I was 12.  Now, I would be rather satisfied to listen to only Bach.

I didn't know about Bach or classical music when I was 12 (I think around that time I heard the term "classical music" for the first time but I didn't have a clue what it means). ~15 years later I found Bach (and classical music in general). Since then the idea of being without Bach's music has been ridiculous.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 09, 2011, 01:05:07 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 11:09:47 AM
Go ahead and mock me now folks. I'm a big boy. I can take it!

What fun will it be if you give us permission?
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Szykneij on February 09, 2011, 01:18:25 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on February 09, 2011, 12:09:00 PM
I didn't know about Bach or classical music when I was 12 (I think around that time I heard the term "classical music" for the first time but I didn't have a clue what it means). ~15 years later I found Bach (and classical music in general). Since then the idea of being without Bach's music has been ridiculous.

Young people like Bach. Here's an old post from a similar thread that's relevant to this discussion:

Quote from: Szykniej on August 04, 2008, 08:51:58 AM
I've worked closely with young people for over 20 years, and even after getting to know a specific group of kids very well, I still can't predict for sure what they'll go for. Just like a random bunch of adults at the workplace or in the supermarket at any given time, opinions and preferences are going to vary drastically.

A couple of years ago, I was lucky to win a case of music sampler CDs on ebay. Each CD was the same and contained short pieces representative of a set of recordings  called "Classical Surroundings". Specific information regarding the compostions and opus numbers was lacking, and I'm not inclined to take the time to look them all up, but the playlist was as follows:

Badinerie / Bach
Rondo:Allegro / Beethoven
Intermezzo, Allegretto Un Poco Agiato / Brahms
Allegro / Danzi
Sicilienne / Faure
Romance / Glinka
Allegro Moderato / Haydn
Serenade / Haydn
Adagio / Sinding
Vivace / Telemann
Duex Preludes Romantiques #2 / Tournier

I gave one CD to each of about 60 high school students as part of a listening assignment and the kids had to pick their three favorites for discussion. Out of the total 180 responses, all of the pieces showed up as someone's favorite and the distribution of choices was remarkably even. The only clear favorites in order of preference were the Faure, Bach and Glinka.

I realize this project and age group was different from what you're going to do with your students, Hornteacher, but I think it emphasizes that variety is the key to finding what resonates with your classes (which must be rather well-off as you mentioned not to flinch at spending $75 for their first set of CDs).    :o
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bhodges on February 09, 2011, 01:28:16 PM
Thanks for posting that, Tony. I don't recall seeing it in its original incarnation, and it's eye-opening.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Szykneij on February 09, 2011, 01:46:04 PM
Quote from: bhodges on February 09, 2011, 01:28:16 PM
Thanks for posting that, Tony. I don't recall seeing it in its original incarnation, and it's eye-opening.

--Bruce

It was posted quite a while ago and it took me a bit of time to locate it. Here's a link to the thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8658.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8658.0.html)
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on February 09, 2011, 01:57:58 PM
I remember going to the Wherehouse in Westwood Village when I was in college and seeing a big gold box on top of a shelf. It was Karajan's Ring. At that time I was still listening to "Art Rock" (which turned out to be neither of those things) and I had just discovered jazz. I remember thinking that if jazz had turned out to be so unexpectedly great, perhaps there was something to classical music too.

The Wherehouse arranged its classical records by catalog number and handed you a Schwann catalog to find what you were looking for. That sort of arrangement made the stacks of single disk LPs totally impenetrable to me. Stupid system. But that big gold box called to me like the Rheinmaidens' song... I knew Wagner from an old record my mom had of the Liebstod and Flying Dutchman overture, so I determined that I would own that box. I saved up for two months from my part time job and finally got it. The guy behind the counter laughed when I lugged it up to the counter and said, "Another Wagnerite is born!"

I dropped the needle on side one and started following along in the libretto, and by the time the Descent to Nibelheim came up, I was totally hooked.

I think that a lot of kids say that they want to try out classical music, but they aren't really serious about it. I'm sure most people in forums asking for recommendations never bother to follow up on them. They dip a toe in the water and dont go any further. But to the ones that are really determined to jump in with both feet, a box set is no obsticle.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Grazioso on February 10, 2011, 05:06:04 AM
Quote from: Mutatis-Mutandis on January 29, 2011, 03:30:08 PM
The genre I most love is heavy metal, mostly for its passion, intricacy, and musicianship. I like music that displays good musicianship and is well-written and more complex, rather than simplistic. I like music that is powerful.
...
I have listened to some Stravinsky and enjoyed it, mainly Firebird. It's a bit too meandering in sections, but the ending climax is just awesome. I've also listend to Gustav Holst's Planets suite, and really love that, especially the first piece inspired by Mars.

So, where do you suggest I go from here?

The suggestions some have posted of certain Romantic and early 20th-century works seem a natural progression from Holst and Stravinsky and should satisfy your desire for music that is passionate and powerful. What could be more like power metal than the opening theme of the last movement of Bruckner's 8th symphony?

As a metalhead, though, you should also look into Baroque instrumental music: there you'll likely hear the most direct musical parallels, and the direct classical influences heard in metal often stem from that era. (And of course, it should satisfy your desire for intricacy and musicianly fireworks since the music of that day is synonymous with those things.)

Try some Vivaldi violin concertos played on period instruments by soloists like Fabio Biondi or Giuliano Carmignola, and you'll probably be struck immediately by the commonalities. The Classical era that followed should also provide you with some "a-ha" moments. Beethoven, in his more aggressive moods, with his punchy, rhythmic motifs, can sound very metal in spirit. Think of the opening of the 5th symphony and then, say, the opening of "Master of Puppets".
Title: Well, jumping in -way- late and speaking as another newbie,
Post by: Palmetto on March 05, 2011, 05:20:03 PM
I disagree with bigshot.

First, the assumption that what draws people to classical is that they've heard something and want to know more or they wouldn't be here.  There's no single piece I've heard that has raised my interest in classical music or this site.  It's a growing feeling of apathy toward the music forms I'm already familiar with, and a feeling that popular music has evolved beyond my tastes.  I'm here because all my life I've been told how great this music; I'm trying to find out if there's something here that will appeal to me.

Second, regarding liner notes, web research, etc.  Every bit of what we now call classical was at some time contemporary.  Those who first heard a piece had no liner notes.  They may have known the composer's reputation or heard other works of his, but they weren't spending their pre-concert hours engaging in a study of what he'd done or how he'd done it.  They didn't have the tools.  That didn't block them from enjoying what they heard, and it didn't keep this music from enduring for centuries.

I agree that a lack of in-depth knowledge will prevent a new listener from appreciating the nuances and subtleties.  Hopefully that doesn't mean I can't derive some level of enjoyment from this music BEFORE I acquire that knowledge.  If it does, I might as well quit now.  I'm more than willing to start with simple pieces to develop my listening skills, but I'm not dropping $150 and a ton of time on something before I know if I like it.  So far, it doesn't look like I'll need to.  If so, there are other forms of entertainment I can investigate for less money and effort than that.
Title: Re: Well, jumping in -way- late and speaking as another newbie,
Post by: Rinaldo on March 05, 2011, 06:10:57 PM
Quote from: Palmetto on March 05, 2011, 05:20:03 PMEvery bit of what we now call classical was at some time contemporary.  Those who first heard a piece had no liner notes.  They may have known the composer's reputation or heard other works of his, but they weren't spending their pre-concert hours engaging in a study of what he'd done or how he'd done it.  They didn't have the tools.  That didn't block them from enjoying what they heard, and it didn't keep this music from enduring for centuries.

I am Leonard Bernstein and I approve this message. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI5-ndLxtqc&t=2m24s)

Title: Re: Well, jumping in -way- late and speaking as another newbie,
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 05, 2011, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: Palmetto on March 05, 2011, 05:20:03 PM
First, the assumption that what draws people to classical is that they've heard something and want to know more or they wouldn't be here.  There's no single piece I've heard that has raised my interest in classical music or this site.  It's a growing feeling of apathy toward the music forms I'm already familiar with, and a feeling that popular music has evolved beyond my tastes.  I'm here because all my life I've been told how great this music; I'm trying to find out if there's something here that will appeal to me.
Most likely you'll find something- it just takes some time. There are so many composers and so much music out there, that if you immerse yourself in it, stuff might either catch your attention immediately, or (as in the case of most of my favorite music) you'll keep listening to something and it'll grow on you. Even my little brother (who is 13) listens to some random stuff every now and then, and pretty much has an idea of composers he kind of likes (Haydn, Schubert and Stravinsky).




Quote from: Palmetto on March 05, 2011, 05:20:03 PM
I'm more than willing to start with simple pieces to develop my listening skills, but I'm not dropping $150 and a ton of time on something before I know if I like it.
If you're talking about good headphones, it's not completely mandatory- I don't use good headphones, and often listen to my horrible laptop speakers. As for CDs...  there are other ways of not spending too much money. You can use a library, youtube or ummm... other ways of acquiring music. Probably the best idea is to search for music on youtube, and if you end up really liking a work, get a good recording of it.
Title: Greg, $150
Post by: Palmetto on March 06, 2011, 10:51:46 AM
I was referring to the CD collection bigshot is selling.  I have no clue what 'Living Stereo' is, whether it's the title of a collection, a record company, or an orchestra.  I'd research it but it doesn't matter; I'm not buying right now.  On some sites his posts on the subject would be considered borderline spam.  I'm new here and haven't learned the lay of the land yet so that's not my call.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on March 06, 2011, 11:15:37 AM
Well, just to offer you a clue about what you're discussing... Living Stereo was a pioneering line of recordings put out by RCA in the late fifties to marry great music, the best orchestras and conductors and state of the art recording technology. Certain original pressings sell for a great deal in the collecting community.

The Living Stereo box set is a spectacular bargain at a little over $2 a disk. If you bought the disks individually, they would cost well over $800. Sometimes you get much more than you pay for. This is that sort of case. Those with an interest in exploring classical music by collecting CDs will end up spending much more than $150. No box set will cover all the bases in one fell swoop, but this one does an excellent job of establishing a foundation to build on for very little money.

So now you know what you're talking about. Hope it helps.

As for spam... If you consider a knowledgeable collector's offer of advice to newbies spam, then I don't know what you're doing in this thread, or on this site for that matter.
Title: Re: Greg, $150
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2011, 11:39:49 AM
Quote from: Palmetto on March 06, 2011, 10:51:46 AM
I was referring to the CD collection bigshot is selling.  I have no clue what 'Living Stereo' is, whether it's the title of a collection, a record company, or an orchestra.  I'd research it but it doesn't matter; I'm not buying right now.  On some sites his posts on the subject would be considered borderline spam.  I'm new here and haven't learned the lay of the land yet so that's not my call.

He isn't offering to sell them to you, he is suggesting that it would be a wise purchase. I realize that his phraseology was a bit confusing at first; I read it twice to make sure what it was saying. :)

As it happens, if I was a newbie and didn't know a lot of music, I would give them consideration too. They are a solid collection.   :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ensemble Modern Times 1800 - Graun Sinfonia in Eb 1st mvmt - Allegro
Title: bigshot,
Post by: Palmetto on March 06, 2011, 12:27:48 PM
Quote from: bigshot on February 05, 2011, 11:59:11 AM
One more quick thing. If there are any newbies who are interested in really exploring classical music... If you are willing to invest $150 for a basic library of the core repertoire with brilliant performances and great sound, just ask. $150 for enough music to keep you busy for a year. All you have to do is ask and let me know you're willing to put in the effort to understand and appreciate it. I'll turn you on to the deal of the century. I'm also willing to share tips if you find anything in there that you'd like to explore further.

Can you see how your phrasing can be mistaken for a 'For Sale' ad?

Right now I have less than 100 CDs of music I know I like.  I don't see myself adding 60 more of music I'm unsure of at any price.  Maybe much later, after I know I'm going to have an ongoing interest.  Otherwise, I won't be able to sell them at even half that.  Right now I'm finding enough free legal MP3s to meet my learning objectives.
Title: Re: bigshot,
Post by: Grazioso on March 06, 2011, 01:39:56 PM
Quote from: Palmetto on March 06, 2011, 12:27:48 PM
Can you see how your phrasing can be mistaken for a 'For Sale' ad?

Right now I have less than 100 CDs of music I know I like.  I don't see myself adding 60 more of music I'm unsure of at any price.  Maybe much later, after I know I'm going to have an ongoing interest.  Otherwise, I won't be able to sell them at even half that.  Right now I'm finding enough free legal MP3s to meet my learning objectives.

While there are some fine, even renowned, discs in that set, I would hesitate to recommend that box to a newbie, unless they have money to burn. Why? It's a fairly random sampling of Romantic-era and early 20th-century warhorses: you might find some pieces you love, but then again, your tastes might ultimately run to composers and styles not represented there at all. While it's helpful to have a grasp of the overall history of classical music and become familiar with the key pieces of the standard repertoire, it's hardly necessary. I would recommend exploring via YouTube, the BBC's "Discovering Music" broadcasts ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/listeninglibrary.shtml ), free (partial) samples on Naxos.com, etc. There's a huge world of classical music outside what you hear with that box set.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on March 06, 2011, 02:28:01 PM
Right now I have less than 100 CDs of music I know I like.  I don't see myself adding 60 more of music I'm unsure of at any price.

The limitation isn't intrinsic within the CDs themselves or even the music recorded on them, it's your tastes that are limited. My whole point is that without extending yourself a bit to understand and appreciate great music, you will only "like" things that happen to coincide with your random tastes. There's an ocean of truly great music of all kinds out there and more fantastic CDs than you can possibly listen to in a lifetime, but you'll never know that if you choose to remain ignorant of it. You could do a lot worse than a set of consistently good performances of core 19th century repertoire at two bucks a disk. This set isn't the be all and end all of classical music, but it's a great first step.

To be honest, the thought of first experiencing classical music through YouTube isn't a particularly appealing one. The best way is to attend local concerts, but if that isn't convenient, CDs and DVDs will be a good second choice. File sharing is OK if you can find a good community of traders and identify the ones that have discernment between good and poor performances. But my experience is that a great deal of file sharing is overrun with randomness and low quality. It's possible to sift for the good stuff, but it requires experience and a bit of work.
Title: YouTube
Post by: Palmetto on March 06, 2011, 03:05:28 PM
bigshot, we're in agreement regarding YouTube.  It has an advantages of being a common, trusted location for most, easily found and navigated, and not requiring any special software or hardware.  It also has the disadvantages of tethering the listener to the computer, highly variable audio quality, and difficulty separating the good from the bad.  CDs are more portable, but the audio quality isn't going to make much difference with the factory speakers in my truck or the ones on my home and work computers.  I've found a couple of places to get .MP3, which strike me as the best option at this time in terms of portability and range of playback devices.

I wouldn't touch file sharing with a pole; too many security, malware, and potential legality issues for my tastes.

As to a set of consistent performances at two bucks each, imagine you've never eaten a particular style of cuisine.  Would you try it by ordering a couple of dishes at a time based on the recommendations of others, or one of everything on the menu on your first trip?

I never said there was any 'limitation' to this set but if there are limitations, they're my wallet and my time.  As to not extending myself, I'm here, aren't I?  There's more of everything than I could do in a lifetime; I'm trying to decide if this is one I want to pay attention to.  I could have decide to explore cross stitching or juggling or wine.  I haven't really explored anything new in probably 15 years, outside of work.  Right now this is where I've turned my attention, but it's way too early for me to consider that sort of investment.  60 CDs at one shot is hardly extending myself 'a bit'.  It would take me literally years to listen to that many CDs even once each.  I wouldn't remember the first one by the time I reached the fifteenth, let alone the sixtieth.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: Brahmsian on March 06, 2011, 03:45:34 PM
If I can make a suggestion, it would be to go check out your public library if you live near one.  For me, it has proven a great resource for classical music, and especially has been a 'money friendly' way of me exploring new works or different recordings of works I like.

I'm very fortunate that the large downtown library in my city has an extensive classical music CD section.  I'm not saying it will be the case for others, but it is something for those new in the classical music exploration to consider and try.   :)

Internet Radio stations are also another great way to start and explore things.  Some specialize in different genres and specific composers. 
Title: ChamberNut,
Post by: Palmetto on March 06, 2011, 03:59:14 PM
my only complaint with Internet radio stations (or streaming feeds from conventional radio stations' web sites) is that they tie me to the computer.  That's not practical at work, and the quality of my computer speakers isn't much better than the ones in the truck.  The headphones on my .MP3 player are probably the best things I have this for this experiment, and I'm not tied to one place with it.

Thanks for the library recommendation.  I believe a couple of others have also made it.
Title: Re: ChamberNut,
Post by: Brahmsian on March 06, 2011, 04:02:03 PM
Quote from: Palmetto on March 06, 2011, 03:59:14 PM
my only complaint with Internet radio stations (or streaming feeds from conventional radio stations' web sites) is that they tie me to the computer. 

That is true, indeed.
Title: Re: ChamberNut,
Post by: Grazioso on March 07, 2011, 05:29:35 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 06, 2011, 04:02:03 PM
That is true, indeed.

I don't like that myself, though I stand by recommendation for the BBC Discovering Music broadcasts I linked above because they're a way to hear (parts of) a famous work and hear someone intelligently discussing its importance and what to listen for. They can help orient someone coming to the music for the first time. Free, too.

Whenever you approach an unfamiliar art form, it's not just a question of what you choose to watch, read, or listen to, but how. Every art form has its own traditions, expectations, and criteria for judging. It's helpful to have experts suggest things to be alert for. (Then again, a totally naive approach has its merits.)

Palmetto, a lot of us here have been listening to classical music for decades and literally have thousands of classical CD's. In our enthusiasm, some of us tend to go overboard in trying to recommend how a newcomer approaches the music we love. Have fun exploring it your way; careful study has its rewards, but music should not be an obligation.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: DavidRoss on March 07, 2011, 06:02:52 AM
Palmetto--an inexpensive way of getting access to thousands of recordings via streaming internet is by subscribing to Naxos.com for $20/year.  The sound quality isn't the greatest, but is more than adequate for the purpose.  http://www.naxos.com/membership/subscribe.asp

Title: Grazioso,
Post by: Palmetto on March 07, 2011, 09:55:16 AM
I agree completely regarding the BBC broadcasts.  Unfortunately, I've got two problems with them; one minor, one major.  The minor one is that I can't get them to load here at work.  VLC player throws out a 'cannot connect error' that I don't get at home, where I can successfully load content from this site.  I can live with that, not that I have a choice.  The major one is that the feeds I really want to listen to the most (those below), I can't get to play at all:

Rhythm: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdm0401slat1of4.ram
Melody: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdm0402slat2of4.ram
Harmony: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdm0403slat3of4.ram
Tone Colour: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/ram/cdm0404slat4of4.ram

Opus106 recommended them, and the titles look like the kind of introductory content I'm interested in.  They just won't play.  I think this content will help me to better understand what's being discussed in the others.
Title: Re: Suggestions for a Newbie
Post by: bigshot on March 07, 2011, 11:56:54 AM
Bernstein's Young People's Concerts on DVD are wonderful, and can even illuminate an old fart like me. It's great that Bernstein doesn't speak down to kids, he just speaks clearly. The new set of Omnibus shows about music is great too. I've just watched the Beethoven episode so far, and I look forward to devouring the rest.
Title: Bernstein's Young People's Concerts
Post by: Palmetto on March 07, 2011, 12:48:51 PM
Some are available on YouTube, although there's the usual YouTube issues of sound quality, edited length, etc.  There's enough to offer a general impression.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Bernstein%20Young%20%20People%27s%20%20Concerts&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1