GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: (: premont :) on April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

Title: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM
Que, here is my list of some HIP recordings, which are played in HIP style on properly restored Northern or German baroque organs. and which do not constitute parts of complete cycles. The number of candidates is small, - almost all uncompromising HIP recordings are parts of integral recordings.

Collections of chiefly choral-free works:

Ton Koopman 6 CD set for Novalis (already recommended by Que).

Rainer Oster 1 CD for Arte Nova on  the Schnitger organ of Sc.Jacobi, Hamburg, (Arte Nova 74321 63644 2).

Stefan Johannes Bleicher  2 CDs for EBS on the Gabler organ in Weigarten and the Holzhey organ in Weissenau respectively.
On the same Holzhey organ he also recorded a Bach-CD for Arte Nova.

Franz Raml  1 CD for Oehms on the Silbermann organ in the Church of the Court, Dresden.

Jean-Charles Ablitzer 2 CDs for Harmonic Records, France on the Treutmann organ, Goslar-Grauhof.

Hubert Meister 1 CD for Motette on the Silbermann organs in Grosshartmannsdorf and Forchheim (contains the triosonates).

Martin Sander 1 CD for Fermate records on the Wagner organ in Trondheim

Matthias Eisenberg and Felix Friedrich 1 CD each (sold as double midprice set) for Capriccio on the Trost organ in Altenburg.

Robert Clark 2 CDs for Calcante on the Hildebrand organ in Naumburg.

Choralbound works:

Orgelbüchlein:
Rene Saorgin on French Harmonia Mundi.

Clavierübung III:
Edgar Krapp for Berlin Classics on the Wagner organs in Brandenburg and Treuenbrietzen.
or
Felix Friedrich for Motette on the Trost organ in Altenburg.


The CDs of some of the uncompromising HIP Integrals are sold separately. This is true of the Haenssler cycle, the Weinberger cycle (CPO) and the Kooiman cycle (Coronata).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on April 29, 2007, 09:45:57 PM
Premont, thanks for reinstating the Bach Organ Works thread! (btw: it's your thread now! :))

What's more: thanks a bundle for the list, with many items that are new to me and look very intriguing! :)

I'm familiar with a few of the names, but I now really have my work cut out for me! ;D
I didn't know that Kooiman had recorded a cycle - seems interesting.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on April 30, 2007, 01:28:50 AM
Anyone knows this one? Comments are welcome! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7556207.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 30, 2007, 02:27:06 AM
Yes, I have got it in my listening queue. This is the only part of Foccroulle´s integral, which is available at the moment. Didn´t mention it because I haven´t heard it yet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 30, 2007, 05:02:38 AM
Anyone knows this one? Comments are welcome! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/7556207.jpg)

Q

Just did the effort to listen to all of it.

The Gottfried Silbermann organ in the Dom of Freiburg is a most spetacular instrument, and it is much used for Bach-recordings ( Alain, Rübsam, Werner Jacob, Christoph Albrecht, Hans Otto et.c.) . On this recording from 1991 the sound is very clear and present, miking at the right distance to my taste.
Foccroulle´s interpretation is smooth and flowing marked by a high degree of spiritual concentration, meditative when needed, and jubilant when needed. Registrations are scholary with a certain preference for sesquialtera- and cornet-like registrations, which I think, Bach would have approved. Articulation generally scholary detached if not as pointed as Kooiman´s or Weinberger´s.
The 2CD-set contains the 18 Leipzigchorales (the 17 and Vor deinen Thron tret Ich) in a rather casual order (not-BWV). As fillers we also get the Canonic variations and the Preludes and Fugues in c-minor BWV 546 and C-major BWV 547. My only chritisism is, that the c-minor Prelude is a bit rushed, detracting from its momumentality despite the use of 16F in manuals and 32F in the pedal.
All in all though, this set can be strongly recommended.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on June 17, 2007, 02:49:02 AM
Thought I'd share some experiences on my recent Bach organ purchases.

First, I got volumes 9-16 of Weinberger's cycle on cpo.
I'm very satisfied with it: good, honest and pointed playing - straight forward with no frills. I like that.
I found volume 13 with Clavier Übung less satisfactory in comparison with the rest.

Listening to these recordings confirmed the importance to me of the use of period organs - they all sound beautiful, some drop dead gorgeous! If this cycle is issued as a boxed set, I will most certainly get it! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5820241.jpg)



My other purchase was the Clavier Übung III with Suzuki (BIS).
This recording simply doesn't do it for me. Suzuki's playing is very flowing and that I liked. But in the end I find it all too abstract and detached, and too smooth - he plays a lot legato. Same goes for the choral intermissions: it all sounds very ethereal, but I don't hear the (spiritual) message - I like that concept of very much though! (Believe Koopman did the same on Teldec?)
Finally, the impression of smoothness is enhanced by the modern organ, which lacks IMO character and "grit".

Of the very little number of recordings I know, my favourite recording of Clavier Übung III remains Kay Johannsen (Hänssler).

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/54/406254.jpg)   (http://images.scm-digital.net//objects/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct2/Bilder/gross/092101000.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on June 20, 2007, 01:12:04 PM
Que, nice to see that you enjoy Weinbergers Bach. I have to agree with your words about his Clavierübung III - or to be more precise, some of the great chorale preludes from the collection, which are performed in a less inspiring way, than I am used to by this interpreter. I also must agree with your words about Suzukis Clavierübung III, which I find rather clinical, the sound of the rather undistinctive organ adding to that impression.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on July 03, 2007, 08:42:21 AM
Another request for your comments - anyone familiar with this series on Berlin Classics?

Johann Sebastian Bach - Das Orgelwerk auf Silbermann Orgeln

(Zweitauseneins has them cheap!  8))

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5008371.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8441708.jpg)

Thanks! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mozart on July 03, 2007, 09:13:56 AM
I just downloaded a 12 cd set, it took 36 hrs. I didn't know what I was getting myself into! These things really should come with a warning.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Expresso on July 03, 2007, 01:26:11 PM

Is that the stereo recording from Walcha or the old mono?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on July 03, 2007, 01:31:11 PM
Another request for your comments - anyone familiar with this series on Berlin Classics?

Johann Sebastian Bach - Das Orgelwerk auf Silbermann Orgeln

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5008371.jpg)  (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8441708.jpg)

The recordings are more than 30 years old, and most of the artists are dead by now. So the style of playing is a bit oldfashioned, but not enough to bother me. The sounds of the different Gottfried Silbermann organs are utterly charming, even if the instruments generally weren´t scientifically restored - as far as I know. Detailled informations about this topic are missing in the booklets. Because of the many different participating organists the artistic level is variable, but most often very good and never less than acceptable. Recorded sound is better than could be anticipated.  
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on July 03, 2007, 06:04:59 PM
Is that the stereo recording from Walcha or the old mono?

the old stereo I think :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Don on July 03, 2007, 06:15:18 PM
Thought I'd share some experiences on my recent Bach organ purchases.

First, I got volumes 9-16 of Weinberger's cycle on cpo.
I'm very satisfied with it: good, honest and pointed playing - straight forward with no frills. I like that.
I found volume 13 with Clavier Übung less satisfactory in comparison with the rest.

Listening to these recordings confirmed the importance to me of the use of period organs - they all sound beautiful, some drop dead gorgeous! If this cycle is issued as a boxed set, I will most certainly get it! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5820241.jpg)



My other purchase was the Clavier Übung III with Suzuki (BIS).
This recording simply doesn't do it for me. Suzuki's playing is very flowing and that I liked. But in the end I find it all too abstract and detached, and too smooth - he plays a lot legato. Same goes for the choral intermissions: it all sounds very ethereal, but I don't hear the (spiritual) message - I like that concept of very much though! (Believe Koopman did the same on Teldec?)
Finally, the impression of smoothness is enhanced by the modern organ, which lacks IMO character and "grit".

Of the very little number of recordings I know, my favourite recording of Clavier Übung III remains Kay Johannsen (Hänssler).

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/54/406254.jpg)   (http://images.scm-digital.net//objects/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct2/Bilder/gross/092101000.jpg)

Q

Goodness!  Just the opposite for me.  I find Johannsen a pale imitation compared to Suzuki's magnificent reading.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on July 03, 2007, 08:34:33 PM
I just downloaded a 12 cd set, it took 36 hrs. I didn't know what I was getting myself into! These things really should come with a warning.

Hope the music makes the same overwhelming impression!  ;D

Goodness!  Just the opposite for me.  I find Johannsen a pale imitation compared to Suzuki's magnificent reading.

 :)  :)

And what are your feelings on the recordings by Weinberger?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Don on July 03, 2007, 09:30:32 PM
And what are your feelings on the recordings by Weinberger?

Q

Very favorable.  Overall, I love the organs he plays and his very sharp contours.  I do sometimes feel that he lacks some musicality, but nobody is wonderful throughout a Bach cycle.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on July 21, 2007, 07:35:17 AM
I have now listened to the first of the cheap Bach Organ CDs I bought from JPC, namely this one:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg)

I was surprised how little there is reverberation in this recording. On the other hand the sound is very clear. The music (Fugas BWV 575 & BWV 577 + random chorales) doesn't seem to be best Bach. Anyway, I don't regret spending 2 euros for this disc.  :D

P.S. Got to love the cover art of this series by Camille Graeser!  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on July 21, 2007, 07:45:42 AM
I have now listened to the first of the cheap Bach Organ CDs I bought from JPC, namely this one:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg)

I was surprised how little there is reverberation in this recording. On the other hand the sound is very clear. The music (Fugas BWV 575 & BWV 577 + random chorales) doesn't seem to be best Bach. Anyway, I don't regret spending 2 euros for this disc.  :D

P.S. Got to love the cover art of this series by Camille Graeser!  :)

You're right, but if you bought others volumes as well (and I believe you did),
there is more exciting stuff ahead! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on July 21, 2007, 08:03:48 AM
You're right, but if you bought others volumes as well (and I believe you did),
there is more exciting stuff ahead! :)

Q

I bought volumes 9-16, two euros each. I'm sure there is very interesting stuff ahead.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on July 24, 2007, 10:17:01 AM
Okay, I have listened Weinberger's volume 10 twice. Much better than volume 9! Now there's just the right amount of reverberation and majesty in the sound.

 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on July 24, 2007, 10:35:52 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2282477.jpg)
I was surprised how little there is reverberation in this recording. On the other hand the sound is very clear.

This depends of course much upon the acoustics of the church in question. You can´t move the organ to the studio for the recording, and by the way how much reverberation, you want, is a matter of taste.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on July 24, 2007, 10:57:37 AM
This depends of course much upon the acoustics of the church in question. You can´t move the organ to the studio for the recording, and by the way how much reverberation, you want, is a matter of taste.

This volume 9 in question has been recorded with very near microphones. The direct sound is much stronger than the reverberation. It sounds like the organ was in a large living room instead of a church!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on July 24, 2007, 01:31:25 PM
This volume 9 in question has been recorded with very near microphones. The direct sound is much stronger than the reverberation. It sounds like the organ was in a large living room instead of a church!

Well, I own the CD in question, and shall investigate this. Probably the problem arises, because the church is rather small.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bogey on July 24, 2007, 01:50:10 PM
For those of you that have multiple recordings, how much does the actual organ used effect the recording sound....I know one obviously has to take into account the performer, venue, sound egineers etc.....  But what are your thoughts on particular organs?  Do you have a favorite?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 04, 2007, 12:45:04 AM
A recommended post from Val: :)

(http://www.cdmail.fr/jaquettes/cd/recto/3149025007353xr.gif)

J S BACH:     Orgelbüchlein          / André Isoir  (CALIOPE)

One of the most touching works of Bach, consisting on 45 short chorals, each one with a deep symbolism. Most of the chorals were composed between 1713 and 1716.

André Isoir is very poetic and fluent, and the instrument is beautiful. The best version I know of this work.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on November 04, 2007, 06:16:29 AM
For those of you that have multiple recordings, how much does the actual organ used effect the recording sound....I know one obviously has to take into account the performer, venue, sound egineers etc.....  But what are your thoughts on particular organs?  Do you have a favorite?

Bach performances played on northern (European) baroque style organs, especially originals built by the workshops of (Gottfried) Silbermann, (Christian) Mueller, (Arp) Schnitger etc. are particularly faithful in reproducing the kinds of timbres and tone colours that the composer may have heard and was used to himself.  Various Silbermann's in Saxony and Alsace are often the favourites for organists and listeners alike in this repertory.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on November 04, 2007, 06:30:11 AM
Jacques Oortmerssen's series on Channel Classics is well-recorded (on various famous baroque instruments) but the interpretations are unfortunately quite too literal and unexciting to these ears.  His account of fantasia and fugue in a minor (BWV 543) in vol. 6 sounds really like a non-event compared to the sizzling performance by Lorenzo Ghielmi in his album "Bach and Romanticists."  Ghielmi chose preludes for the same chorales as composed by Bach (from Orgelbuechlein) and Brahms and used baroque and romantic style instruments respectively.  A beautiful album from Winter & Winter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on November 04, 2007, 08:46:25 AM
For those of you that have multiple recordings, how much does the actual organ used effect the recording sound....I know one obviously has to take into account the performer, venue, sound egineers etc.....  But what are your thoughts on particular organs?  Do you have a favorite?

An interest in organ music almost inevitably leads to an interest in historical organs. Since the greater part of informed organists to day uses restored historical organs or competent builded copies, these interests go hand in hand.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on November 04, 2007, 08:55:20 AM

(http://www.cdmail.fr/jaquettes/cd/recto/3149025007353xr.gif)


Isoir´s Bach integral was made during a long period of time and is rather uneven. He got better with time. I find his playing generally brilliant and flowing but often too streamlined, something made possible by the modern organs he preferred to use. The best part of the cycle is IMO the Clavierübung III played on the historical Joseph Gabler organ in Weingarten, whereas the sound of the Grenzing organ he uses much, is less suited for Bach, at least in these ears.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 04, 2007, 09:00:14 AM
Isoir´s Bach integral was made during a long period of time and is rather uneven. He got better with time. I find his playing generally brilliant and flowing but often too streamlined, something made possible by the modern organs he preferred to use. The best part of the cycle is IMO the Clavierübung III played on the historical Joseph Gabler organ in Weingarten, whereas the sound of the Grenzing organ he uses much, is less suited for Bach, at least in these ears.

With recommendations by two experts*, I gues this is a winner! :)
Val, Premont, thank you both!  :)


* I believe some members mind me saying that - but I'll do it anyway... 8)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on November 04, 2007, 09:05:34 AM
Jacques Oortmerssen's series on Channel Classics is well-recorded (on various famous baroque instruments) but the interpretations are unfortunately quite too literal and unexciting to these ears.  His account of fantasia and fugue in a minor (BWV 543) in vol. 6 sounds really like a non-event compared to the sizzling performance by Lorenzo Ghielmi in his album "Bach and Romanticists."   

Van Oortmerssen, hmmm. I agree, he is often conspicuously uneventful. For the same reason I do not "subscribe" to his still incomplete set. However I have acquired four of the CDs because of the organs he uses (NB Bogey look above). I think Oortmerssen somtimes at least succeds in creating a kind of cumulative effect in the longer choral free pieces, e.g. BWV 538 and 540.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on November 05, 2007, 04:04:41 AM
Isoir? Bach integral was made during a long period of time and is rather uneven. He got better with time.

I have the Bach AoF and organ concertos (mostly reconstructed arrangements) recorded by Isoir and while liking both, actually listen more to the latter (Martin Gester is the conductor).  I believe the light textures/registration
favoured by Isoir (as pointed out above by Premont) sound probably more appealing in a concerto than in solo music.  Does anyone know whether Isoir has recorded Handel's concertos? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 10, 2008, 07:01:47 AM
Repost:

cpo has just issued this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ch6MV8HFL._SS500_.jpg)

I've had some positive experiences with Weinberger in the past: HIP approach, beautiful historical organs, well recorded, played with insight and (mostly) gusto. Though Weinberger lacks the musical brilliance of - say - a Jean-Charles Ablitzer, Weinberger has also his less remarkble and plain "solid" moments of playing.

This set is $245 at Amazon.com (preorder) but €50 at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/artnum/7006321)! (which owns cpo)  ::)
Well, we know that the US dollar has declined a bit but this is a rather steep difference.... ::)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on November 10, 2008, 07:08:56 AM
Jacques Oortmerssen's series on Channel Classics is well-recorded (on various famous baroque instruments) but the interpretations are unfortunately quite too literal and unexciting to these ears. 

I agree with the opinions but not the label - it's Challenge.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 10, 2008, 07:14:50 AM
And I'm considering these:

(http://www.dejongdejong.nl/images/bookletbachfront.jpg)(http://www.dejongdejong.nl/images/bachcantatasvol.2.jpg)(http://www.dejongdejong.nl/images/bookletvol301copy.jpg)

The idea of four hands organ arrangements of movements from the cantatas, performed on Dutch historical organs, seems pretty irresistible to me! :)
And it sounds good... 8)

AUDIA SAMPLES (links open Windows Media Player):

Concerto super: Was mein Gott will,das g’scheh allzeit (BWV 111/1)
canto fermo in soprano > audiofragment  (http://www.dejongdejong.nl/downloads/bwv111fragment.wma)[615 KB]

Adagio assai BWV 12/1 > audiofragment  (http://www.dejongdejong.nl/downloads/bwv12fragment.wma)[477 KB]

And more information on the site of the performers, two brothers, HERE (http://dejongdejong.nl/english/).

And the link for Harry HERE (http://dejongdejong.nl/)! ;D

Part I - the organ in the Martinikerk in Bolsward:              Part II - the organ in the Grote of Jacobijnekerk in Leeuwarden:

(http://www.dejongdejong.nl/images/hinzsorgelbolsward.jpg) (http://dejongdejong.nl/images/muellerleeuwarden.jpg)

Part III - the Hinsz-organ in the Bovenkerk in Kampen:

(http://dejongdejong.nl/images/kampenhoofdorgel.jpg)

Mouthwatering! 8)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2008, 11:14:18 AM
The complete organ works, plus the AoF, for $25. On 5 non-hybrid SACDs.  :'(

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/SO_BIS/BISSACD1527-28.htm

Do I understand them correctly? They've used SACD just to store 17 CDs worth of music, and this doesn't have the any benefits sonically?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on November 23, 2008, 11:24:20 AM
The complete organ works, plus the AoF, for $25. On 5 non-hybrid SACDs.  :'(

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/SO_BIS/BISSACD1527-28.htm

Do I understand them correctly? They've used SACD just to store 17 CDs worth of music, and this doesn't have the any benefits sonically?

So it seems, and unplayable on ordinary CD-players.
But you can get the same recordings in the normal format on Brilliant Classics.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2008, 11:27:16 AM
But you can get the same recordings in the normal format on Brilliant Classics.
Q

Oh. I didn't know that. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on November 23, 2008, 01:01:44 PM

But you can get the same recordings in the normal format on Brilliant Classics.

This is not quite true, as Fagius´ AoF is missing in the Brilliant release.

This is BTW not a great loss in my opinion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Norbeone on November 23, 2008, 03:03:05 PM
And I'm considering these:



The idea of four hands organ arrangements of movements from the cantatas, performed on Dutch historical organs, seems pretty irresistible to me! :)
And it sounds good... 8)

AUDIA SAMPLES (links open Windows Media Player):

Concerto super: Was mein Gott will,das g’scheh allzeit (BWV 111/1)
canto fermo in soprano > audiofragment  (http://www.dejongdejong.nl/downloads/bwv111fragment.wma)[615 KB]

Adagio assai BWV 12/1 > audiofragment  (http://www.dejongdejong.nl/downloads/bwv12fragment.wma)[477 KB]
Mouthwatering! 8)

Q


Thanks for posting these. They sound quite amazing!

 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 24, 2008, 01:48:29 PM
Yes, Bach boys and girls - what to make of these recent reissues? :o :)

I'm getting a choice overload... ::)

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/4/2/9/0794881903924.jpg)   (http://www.images-chapitre.com/ima0/big1/060/11571060.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 24, 2008, 02:58:57 PM
Another request for your comments - anyone familiar with this series on Berlin Classics?

Johann Sebastian Bach - Das Orgelwerk auf Silbermann Orgeln

(Zweitauseneins has them cheap!  8))

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/5008371.jpg)  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000DMJT/nectarandambr-20) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8441708.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000AG5O/nectarandambr-20)

Thanks! :)
Q

I don't have the complete set (45 Euros and less on Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/nectarandambr-21), $77 and less on Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000TGF1G8/nectarandambr-20) -- but I've lobbied Berlin Classics (so far unsuccessfully) to send it over, alright. I did buy several volumes of this when Tower went out of business, and I must say that I did not regret buying any of them. I like that sumptuous, comfortable sound (distortion happens here and there, reminding me perhaps of the tapes my dad made for me of the Bach organ works when I was a wee lad) and the slightly indulgent playing on these moderate-sized instruments. I also quite liked Kevin Bowyer's (similarly luxurious) style in the three, four copies I picked up from that cycle. (Organ Mass, for example.)

But having worked my way through Weinberger over Thanksgiving, I must say that I like his slightly dryer, understated approach quite a bit, too. Especially in the smaller works that works very well... although I like an organist who juices the "biggest hits" a little more. To that effect, Karl Richter is still absolutely essential (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/nectarandambr-20). And I like Isoir's AoF (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00020HD7G/nectarandambr-20) quite a bit better. Unfortunately (??) it's the only part of his Bach cycle I have. But then, I'd have too many, anyway. Stockmeier  (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009DIR/nectarandambr-20)still somewhere on the shelves, too - Fagius, of course [bec. part of the Brilliant box]... and plans on getting one of the Walcha sets, too.

Does anyone have opinions (informed ones, preferably) on Walcha's stereo set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SAAX/nectarandambr-20) [mouse-over link for small picture of cover] and incomplete mono set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000U1NH4/nectarandambr-20)? And what kind of a re-issue is this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E6UL6I/nectarandambr-20)? (Presumably the out-of-copyright mono set??) And anyone experience with Knud Vad's set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EPFGS2/nectarandambr-20), available on SACD for "an apple & an egg"? (Well, in Europe/Germany, at least (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EPFGS2/nectarandambr-21).)


From my "Best of 2008 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)" choices for WETA:
Weinberger doesn’t aim for bombast (near-impossible, on the historic instruments from Saxony and Thuringia, anyway), and he is not the most impressive in some of the ‘biggest hits’ works. (Karl Richter’s 3 CD set is still a mandatory addition to any Bach organ collection, no matter who the interpreter). But apart from minor quibbles, it is a magnificent complete set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 18, 2009, 03:42:17 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/6/2/3/0794881831326.jpg)

Recently got this. Diapason d'Or & Grand Prix du Disque, and all that. And I know the recording has quite a few admirers, but to me it's a bit of a disappointment really...  ::)
I feel it's underpowered and underarticulated. Sounds actually rather "old fashioned" in approach. I'm not against the use of legato in Bach organ works, but this is clearly overdone IMO.
One and a half hour of smooth, whispering Bach is too much for me. If this is the best Isoir has to offer, I'll happily pass over the rest, no offence! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 18, 2009, 09:17:01 AM
Any opinions on the Margaret Phillips cycle on the Regent label?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on February 10, 2009, 07:13:58 AM
(http://prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg) (http://prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564692817)

Click on image for more info.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 10, 2009, 09:55:48 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/6/2/3/0794881831326.jpg)
Diapason d'Or & Grand Prix du Disque,

Which, as we know, are good indicators of the Frenchness of the product.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 10, 2009, 11:54:20 AM
(http://prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg) (http://prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564692817)

Click on image for more info.



Oooh yessss, that I want! ;D

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 10, 2009, 08:52:58 PM
Here are the Bach CD-sets in my collection.

Lionel Rogg      Complete Bach Organ Works       EMI (LP)
Werner Jacob   Complete Bach Organ Works       EMI
Helmut Walcha Complete Bach Organ Works       Document (historical)
Helmut Walcha Complete Bach Organ Works       Archive
Hans Fagius     Complete Bach Organ Works       Brilliant Classics
Peter Hurford   Complete Bach Organ Works       London

I also have many single CD's of Bach Organ Works on Erato by Marie-Claire Alain, quite a good number of CD's by Chorzempa on Philips, by Karl Richter and Simon Preston on DG, etc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2009, 04:57:46 AM
(http://prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg)[/url
 (http://prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner%2BClassics/2564692817)

This set, I take it, differs from this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007OP15S/goodmusicguide-20)

Because about the latter, I've heard some very unflattering things.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jwinter on February 11, 2009, 06:19:35 AM
My taste for Bach on the organ seems to be a bit old-fashioned.  I have Walcha's stereo set, and enjoy it a great deal.  I also have a couple of singles from Werner Jacob and E Powers Biggs (best organist name ever).

If I wanted to try a disc or two of more "modern" Bach organ recordings, what would you recommend?  Preferably something that has a good version of the Passacaglia & Fugue (yes, I know it's probably the organ equivalent of an old warhorse, but I love that piece...).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 11, 2009, 06:42:53 AM
My taste for Bach on the organ seems to be a bit old-fashioned.  I have Walcha's stereo set, and enjoy it a great deal.  I also have a couple of singles from Werner Jacob and E Powers Biggs (best organist name ever).

If I wanted to try a disc or two of more "modern" Bach organ recordings, what would you recommend?  Preferably something that has a good version of the Passacaglia & Fugue (yes, I know it's probably the organ equivalent of an old warhorse, but I love that piece...).

BWV 582 is one of my absolute favorites, too.

There is a lovely recording of 5 versions of 582 on Signum. Unfortunately not easily available in the US or UK, but still in Germany and France (via Amazon).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z9XNMD95L._SL500_AA240_.gif)
AmazonUK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024BOT/nectarandambrUK-21) - AmazonGermany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024BOT/nectarandambr-21) - AmazonFrance (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000024BOT/nectarandambrFR-21)

The "straight" performance--on an organ of Bach's time without fancy register changes--might be the most compelling one. Very simple, very no-nonsense... and establishing precisely that necessary "necessarily, compelling, inescapable momentum" that makes it so special.
Also includes Two Pianos (very good), solo piano, Stokowski-orchestral, and Liszt-Organ versions.

This isn't modern, either, but it also includes a sublime Passacaglia and is in any case the best 3-CD set of Bach organ music that can be had: Karl Richter on DG (mentioned at some length in my "Best of 2005 (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)" and having only grown since, in my appreciation.)

Among modern Bach organ performances that also include a wonderful Passacaglia, I'd chose Bowyers. It's Volume 9 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000007NG4/nectarandambr-20) of his series on Nimbus.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/SZLkYEWXgrI/AAAAAAAAAto/Lyjpk2JCxuw/s400/04+fourth+step.JPG)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/SZLkYKxcLgI/AAAAAAAAAtw/Ip-r6PGDTbg/s400/07+pray.JPG)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/SZLk665pGSI/AAAAAAAAAt4/zbCYCZhaG2o/s400/08+and+have+it+answered.JPG)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 11, 2009, 07:03:50 AM
My taste for Bach on the organ seems to be a bit old-fashioned.  I have Walcha's stereo set, and enjoy it a great deal.  I also have a couple of singles from Werner Jacob and E Powers Biggs (best organist name ever).

If I wanted to try a disc or two of more "modern" Bach organ recordings, what would you recommend?  Preferably something that has a good version of the Passacaglia & Fugue (yes, I know it's probably the organ equivalent of an old warhorse, but I love that piece...).

Check out "Baroque Organ Triology" on the Pro Organo label played by Claudia Dumschat.  Wonderful performances of BWV 582 and a few other Bach works.  Also has a couple of Buxtehude and Bruhns organ works.  Easily one of my favorite organ discs of baroque music.  BUT, nobody plays BWV 582 as well as Biggs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jwinter on February 11, 2009, 07:13:12 AM
Thanks for the suggestions!  :)  
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 11, 2009, 12:09:11 PM
This set, I take it, differs from this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007OP15S/goodmusicguide-20)

Because about the latter, I've heard some very unflattering things.


Yes, they are different. The latter are the recordings previously issued on the Swiss Novalis label.
I'm surprised about what you heard about - FWIW I think it's top notch Bach organ playing and I believe I'm not alone in this opinion.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 11, 2009, 12:42:54 PM
Yes, they are different. The latter are the recordings previously issued on the Swiss Novalis label.
I'm surprised about what you heard about - FWIW I think it's top notch Bach organ playing and I believe I'm not alone in this opinion.

Q

No, you are not alone in this opinion, except maybe concerning vol. One (with BWV 565 and 542), which I find a tad too willful and overembellished - often the problem with Koopman.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 11, 2009, 05:53:34 PM
Schübler Chorales are among my most favorite Bach organ pieces. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 11:22:50 AM
I find this historical set by Walcha an excellent set to own.  I am a little half way through the set.  For under $20, this was heck of a bargain and the SQ is quite good too ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516sJ6gYtzL._SS400_.jpg)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 13, 2009, 02:32:56 PM
I find this historical set by Walcha an excellent set to own.  ... and the SQ is quite good too ...

What is SQ??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 13, 2009, 02:33:59 PM
What is SQ??

Audiophile-speak for "sound quality".
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 02:34:30 PM
What is SQ??

sound quality ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 13, 2009, 02:48:58 PM
sound quality ...

Thanks. For a moment I thought, you meant Stereo Quality, and this is a mono recording.
BTW compared to the DG original release, the Membram release has obviously been "injected" with some ambience, altogether tastefully done, but constituting an unnecessary addition. But still the Membran release is a steal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2009, 02:52:15 PM
Thanks. For a moment I thought, you meant Stereo Quality, and this is a mono recording.
BTW compared to the DG original release, the Membram release has obviously been "injected" with some ambience, altogether tastefully done, but constituting an unnecessary addition. But still the Membran release is a steal.

I also have the Archive version, which is still in cellophane.  I have not even finished listenng to this historical set yet. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 14, 2009, 01:05:21 AM
Thanks. For a moment I thought, you meant Stereo Quality, and this is a mono recording.
BTW compared to the DG original release, the Membram release has obviously been "injected" with some ambience, altogether tastefully done, but constituting an unnecessary addition. But still the Membran release is a steal.

Could be LP transfers?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 14, 2009, 02:56:41 AM
Could be LP transfers?

Q

Yes, certainly LP transfers. But still the ambience is added compared to the original recordings.
I know, because I own a considerable part of the original Archive LPs as well as the Archive The Original´s CD release  - and of course the Membran release.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 14, 2009, 02:58:38 AM
I also have the Archive version, which is still in cellophane.  I have not even finished listenng to this historical set yet. 

The Archive The Originals mono CD box? Well you may find the SQ of this preferable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 07:28:11 AM
The Archive The Originals mono CD box? Well you may find the SQ of this preferable.

No, it is in full stereo and cost a bit more than the mono box from DOCUMENT.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 14, 2009, 08:45:43 AM
No, it is in full stereo and cost a bit more than the mono box from DOCUMENT.

This is his later stereo integral, a different recording.
I must conclude, that you are well served with his two integrals.
Both are (IMO) a must for a lover of Bach´s organ music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 09:32:44 AM
This is his later stereo integral, a different recording.
I must conclude, that you are well served with his two integrals.
Both are (IMO) a must for a lover of Bach´s organ music.

I have four other sets of Bach Complete Organ Works and I should be set unless something exceptional comes along, which I seriously doubt ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 14, 2009, 10:18:17 AM
I have four other sets of Bach Complete Organ Works and I should be set unless something exceptional comes along, which I seriously doubt ...

Well, I have twenty-seven!  :o :o :o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 10:24:17 AM
Well, I have twenty-seven!  :o :o :o

27 sets of Bach Complete Organ Works?  That is at least 300 CD's.  The smallest set I have consists of 10 CD's (depending on how the works are packaged) and I have 7 sets of CD's on these works ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 14, 2009, 10:33:15 AM
27 sets of Bach Complete Organ Works?  That is at least 300 CD's.  

Yeah, crazy. I have 3 Naxos and 8 CPO discs of Bach's organ works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: The new erato on February 14, 2009, 10:37:58 AM
I'm listening to the Little Organ Book from the Membran set and find it very fine. I think I paid 9 euros for it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 10:43:20 AM
Yeah, crazy. I have 3 Naxos and 8 CPO discs of Bach's organ works.

I must have at least a half-dozen Bach organ works by Wolfgang Rubsam on Naxos, which I forgot to mention.  I doubt I have the full volume though since Naxos tends to sell them as singles rather than a set and I just do not have the patience to hunt out the individual singles ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 10:56:18 AM
I have four other sets of Bach Complete Organ Works and I should be set unless something exceptional comes along, which I seriously doubt ...

I only have two complete sets and don't intend on increasing the number.  Big boxes are not my thing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 11:12:53 AM
I only have two complete sets and don't intend on increasing the number.  Big boxes are not my thing.

As I posted earlier, there are probably not many more than a half-dozen sets of Complete Bach Organ Works out there that are worth collecting.  I have trouble coming up with more than ten organists, dead or alive, whose recordings of these works are worth collecting in my opinion.  Helmut Walcha definitely tops this list ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 14, 2009, 11:51:34 AM
As I posted earlier, there are probably not many more than a half-dozen sets of Complete Bach Organ Works out there that are worth collecting.  I have trouble coming up with more than ten organists, dead or alive, whose recordings of these works are worth collecting in my opinion.  Helmut Walcha definitely tops this list ...

Must be because you have not heard them. Most of them are excellent each in their own right.

Walcha first recording
Walcha second recording
Alain second recording
Alain third recrding
Rogg first recording
Rogg second recording
Rogg third recording
Kraft
Chapuis
Isoir
Vernet
Jacob
Rübsam first recording
Rübsam second recording
Lagacé
Weinberger
Ritchie
Köbler, Otto et alii
Vad
Fagius
Herrick
Preston
Stockmeier
Corti
Hurford
Johannesen, Bryndorf et alii
Koopman
Koiiman
Eisenberg

Twenty-nine as far as I can count
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 12:03:03 PM
Must be because you have not heard them. Most of them are excellent each in their own right.

Walcha first recording
Walcha second recording
Alain second recording
Alain third recrding
Rogg first recording
Rogg second recording
Rogg third recording
Kraft
Chapuis
Isoir
Vernet
Jacob
Rübsam first recording
Rübsam second recording
Lagacé
Weinberger
Ritchie
Köbler, Otto et alii
Vad
Fagius
Herrick
Preston
Stockmeier
Corti
Hurford
Johannesen, Bryndorf et alii
Koopman
Koiiman
Eisenberg

Twenty-nine as far as I can count

Did Simon Preston ever record the Complete Bach Organ Works?  I have seen about a half-dozen of his singles over the year.  I have 2 sets of Walcha, 1 set each by Werner Jacobs, Lionel Rogg, Peter Hurford, Hans Fagius and probably have close to the full set by Alain and Rubsam.  I have over 1000 CD's/LP's on works of JS Bach, which cover just about all his major works and have zero desire to expand much more on my current organ works collection.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 14, 2009, 12:13:31 PM
Did Simon Preston ever record the Complete Bach Organ Works?  I have seen about a half-dozen of his singles over the year.  I have 2 sets of Walcha, 1 set each by Werner Jacobs, Lionel Rogg, Peter Hurford, Hans Fagius and probably have close to the full set by Alain and Rubsam.  I have over 1000 CD's/LP's on works of JS Bach, which cover just about all his major works and have zero desire to expand much more on my current organ works collection.

Simon Prestons integral was released by DG approximately seven years ago. Of the above mentioned his is BTW the set I would recommend the least. Next Chapuis´.

But you seem to be better served than most without adding Preston to your collection.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 14, 2009, 12:15:27 PM
I only have two complete sets and don't intend on increasing the number.  Big boxes are not my thing.

Long time ago you wrote, that you once upon a time spent three years listening exclusively to organ works by Bach. Did you actually listen to the same two sets all the time?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 01:16:52 PM
Long time ago you wrote, that you once upon a time spent three years listening exclusively to organ works by Bach. Did you actually listen to the same two sets all the time?

Of course not.  Most of my listening was through single or double discs.  As you know, there's a ton of Bach organ recordings that have been made.  Just last night, I was listening to some Rogg, Koopman, Phillips, Walcha, Richter, Suzuki, Vernet and Hurford.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 01:19:35 PM
As I posted earlier, there are probably not many more than a half-dozen sets of Complete Bach Organ Works out there that are worth collecting.  I have trouble coming up with more than ten organists, dead or alive, whose recordings of these works are worth collecting in my opinion.  Helmut Walcha definitely tops this list ...

Totally disagree.  There are many dozens of excellent Bach organists.  Another thing - if you want a wide variety of the best of Bach organ recordings, you need to get off the "complete set" kick.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 01:28:43 PM
Totally disagree.  There are many dozens of excellent Bach organists.  Another thing - if you want a wide variety of the best of Bach organ recordings, you need to get off the "complete set" kick.

Besides my seven complete sets, I do have many CD's by individual organists.  I happen to have a good number of CD's of Bach organ works by Daniel Chorzempa, who I have found to be an excellent organist and an American.  I also have a good number of CD's by Payne, Preston and Heiller.  I am pretty well covered ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 01:41:14 PM
I am aware that Ton Koopman is a terrific organist.  I only have his recordings on organ works by Handel and John Stanley and do not have one CD on Bach organ works by him.  Perhaps I should get started with Koopman.  I have Sweelinck's organ works by Herrick and Liszt's Complete Organ Works by Stefan Johannes Bleicher and again no Bach organ works by either.  Stefan Johannes Bleicher is a promising German organist and will probably record the set at some point.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 02:14:41 PM
Here is what looks like a partial set since it only has 6 CD's.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007OP15S/sr=1-1/qid=1234649451/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1234649451&sr=1-1&seller=
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2009, 04:03:52 PM
Besides my seven complete sets, I do have many CD's by individual organists.  I happen to have a good number of CD's of Bach organ works by Daniel Chorzempa, who I have found to be an excellent organist and an American.  I also have a good number of CD's by Payne, Preston and Heiller.  I am pretty well covered ...

Have you looked into primarily organ labels including Loft, Pro Organo, Calcante, Priory and Gothic?  There's some gold from those labels that's every bit as good as the Bach organists we talk frequently about such as Walcha, Koopman, etc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2009, 04:17:32 PM
Have you looked into primarily organ labels including Loft, Pro Organo, Calcante, Priory and Gothic?  There's some gold from those labels that's every bit as good as the Bach organists we talk frequently about such as Walcha, Koopman, etc.

I have CD's by some smaller labels such as ARCANA, OPUS111, Calliope, Priory, Chamade and Tactus, etc.  I just orderd the WTC by Jill Crossland on Signum, the first time I purchased CD's released by this small English label.  I have been collecting the organ works by Johann Ludwig Krebs on the Priory label and I think I am 1 CD away from completing the set of his recorded works on Priory.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 11:15:21 AM
I got the Herrick’s set (Hyperion, 16 cds) two or three days ago. In the fourth cd of the set -named The Toccatas and Passacaglia- a strange noise is clearly listened in the 3rd track (1:15), at the beginning of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564  :'(. Is just my cd? Or a recording fault?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 15, 2009, 11:20:21 AM
I got the Herrick’s set (Hyperion, 16 cds) two or three days ago. In the fourth cd of the set -named The Toccatas and Passacaglia- a strange noise is clearly listened in the 3rd track (1:15), at the beginning of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564  :'(. Is just my cd? Or a recording fault?

No clue, I do not own the set.  It could also be a defect in certain production batch where you set came from.  The member who has 29 versions of Bach Organ Works has this set.  Maybe he can check his set for you ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 15, 2009, 12:37:10 PM
I got the Herrick’s set (Hyperion, 16 cds) two or three days ago. In the fourth cd of the set -named The Toccatas and Passacaglia- a strange noise is clearly listened in the 3rd track (1:15), at the beginning of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564  :'(. Is just my cd? Or a recording fault?

I will try a listen to my item of this CD to morrow and report back to you, but there is no noise - as far as I can recall.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 15, 2009, 12:40:31 PM
I got the Herrick’s set (Hyperion, 16 cds) two or three days ago. In the fourth cd of the set -named The Toccatas and Passacaglia- a strange noise is clearly listened in the 3rd track (1:15), at the beginning of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio and Fugue BWV 564  :'(. Is just my cd? Or a recording fault?

I just checked it out.  I don't have the set, but I acquired the Toccatas and Passacaglia disc when it was first released.

You are correct, Antoine.  I hear that snippet of interference exactly at 1:15 of the 3rd track; only lasts a fraction of a second.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 01:23:53 PM
What a pity because it's a beautiful performance! But at least I'm not the one guy in the world with that horrible noise  >:D. Thanks, guys; especially, Bulldog.

BTW, Premont, what do you think about Corti's recordings? I have heard some pieces and they sounded very, very engaging.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 15, 2009, 01:36:03 PM
What a pity because it's a beautiful performance! But at least I'm not the one guy in the world with that horrible noise  >:D. Thanks, guys; especially, Bulldog.


You're welcome.  Whenever 1:15 is coming up, lower the volume. 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 15, 2009, 01:37:04 PM
What a pity because it’s a beautiful performance! But at least I´m not the one guy in the world with that horrible noise  >:D. Thanks, guys; especially, Bulldog.

BTW, Premont, what do you think about Corti's recordings? I have heard some pieces and they sounded very, very engaging.

I like his playing, informed, fresh and filled with emotion. I am not that happy about the Tamburini organs, he uses, and even if they are "classical" in layout, I find their sound less than ideal for Bach. And the actual sound of some of the recordings is rather diffuse (the Art of Fuge maybe the worst), but still the interpretations are rewarding listening.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 02:54:10 PM
Thanks, Premont. I was considering The Art of Fugue and The Little Organ Book, but –after your words about the acoustics- I’ll search some examples.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 15, 2009, 02:59:02 PM
Thanks, Premont. I was considering The Art of Fugue and The Little Organ Book, but –after your words about the acoustics- I’ll search some examples.

I am not sure, that compressed examples will be sufficiently illustrative.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 15, 2009, 03:10:40 PM
Link to the Bach organ music thread in the old GMG forum:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13613.0.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2009, 03:37:19 PM
That is a real problem  ???. It seems that the compressed files don't work very well with some ancient instruments (clavichords, lute-harpsichords, organs). And those discs are rather expensive and not readily available… the worst of all possible worlds.

It will be interesting to read that old thread; thanks, Premont.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 10:50:33 AM
Anyone familiar with the organist Margaret Phillips?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/REGCD254.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 16, 2009, 11:21:04 AM
Anyone familiar with the organist Margaret Phillips?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/REGCD254.jpg)

I have heard this double CD once - half a year ago, when I got it. Since then I have acquired the three other double CDs, she has released so far. But they are in my listening queue, at the moment I concentrate upon LvB´s String Quartets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 11:25:49 AM
I have heard this double CD once - half a year ago, when I got it. Since then I have acquired the three other double CDs, she has released so far. But they are in my listening queue, at the moment I concentrate upon LvB´s String Quartets.

I will need to finish listening to my 60-CD set of Bach Cantatas by Harnoncourt before I make any new sizable CD purchase.  The Cantatas set is still in its cellophane.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 16, 2009, 01:04:19 PM
Anyone familiar with the organist Margaret Phillips?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/REGCD254.jpg)

I have vols. 3 and 4 from her cycle.  Very enjoyable performances, but nothing special.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 02:11:10 PM
I have vols. 3 and 4 from her cycle.  Very enjoyable performances, but nothing special.

So they are no more than average performance?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 16, 2009, 02:59:41 PM
So they are no more than average performance?

They are probably better than average, but here's the problem - It's nice when at least one piece from a disc tells you "music doesn't get any better than this".  This happens regularly from Rogg and a few others.  With Phillips, no performance reaches the heights, at least not yet.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 03:05:01 PM
They are probably better than average, but here's the problem - It's nice when at least one piece from a disc tells you "music doesn't get any better than this".  This happens regularly from Rogg and a few others.  With Phillips, no performance reaches the heights, at least not yet.

Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland by Lionel Rogg on this EMI CD is just superb.  I have this CD for a number of years ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 07:40:22 PM
Tonight I was reading the Bach/organ thread in the old forum. In that thread Premont recommended the 2nd complete set by M-C Alain (recorded between 1978 and 1980), although he pointed out that it was OOP in that time. But currently that set is available again in a box with 15 cds at a bargain price. IMHO a must-have:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann%20Sebastian%20Bach%3A%20Orgelwerke%20(Ges.-Aufn.)/hnum/6382298

Finally, a stupid question: Bulldog, are you the former Don?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 07:43:02 PM
This Bach Organ Works set by Ton Koopman on Brilliant cannot possibly be the full set.  Amazon lists only 6 CD's for this set and there is no reason to think this is an MP3 set ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 07:45:03 PM
Tonight I was reading the Bach/organ thread in the old forum. In that thread Premont recommended the 2nd complete set by M-C Alain (recorded between 1978 and 1980), although he pointed out that it was OOP in that time. But currently that set is available again in a box with 15 cds at a bargain price. IMHO a must-have:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann%20Sebastian%20Bach%3A%20Orgelwerke%20(Ges.-Aufn.)/hnum/6382298

Finally, a stupid question: Bulldog, are you the former Don?


I have most of the original CD singles by Marie-Claire Alain on Erato ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 07:53:05 PM
Are you speaking about the 2nd integral recording? Because the third is on Erato too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 07:55:09 PM
Are you speaking about the 2nd integral recording? Because the third is on Erato too.

I bought most of her singles in the mid 80's through early 90's.  They could be her second recording ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 08:02:27 PM
That's right because the third integral was recorded in the middle of the nineties, when several historic organs were available after the fall of the Berlin Wall
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 08:09:45 PM
That's right because the third integral was recorded in the middle of the nineties, when several historic organs were available after the fall of the Berlin Wall

Her third recording is particularly interesting as some pieces were actually performed on the same organs JS Bach himself had used.  This would not have been possible before the fall of the Berlin Wall as these organs are all located in the former East Germany ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 16, 2009, 08:18:03 PM
In this nice interview M-C Alain explains her reasons in order to record the third complete set:

http://www.theorganmag.com/articles/alain.html

I have the 2nd and the 3rd sets and I really enjoy both of them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 16, 2009, 10:41:48 PM
This Bach Organ Works set by Ton Koopman on Brilliant cannot possibly be the full set.  Amazon lists only 6 CD's for this set and there is no reason to think this is an MP3 set ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

See posts on page 3 of this thread. :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 17, 2009, 06:08:00 AM
Tonight I was reading the Bach/organ thread in the old forum. In that thread Premont recommended the 2nd complete set by M-C Alain (recorded between 1978 and 1980), although he pointed out that it was OOP in that time. But currently that set is available again in a box with 15 cds at a bargain price. IMHO a must-have:

Certainly nice to see, that this integral has been made available again.

BTW I have sent you two PM´s.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 17, 2009, 08:46:33 AM
Finally, a stupid question: Bulldog, are you the former Don?


The former Don, the current Don and hopefully the future Don.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 17, 2009, 09:22:09 AM
Excellent, this explains why the people called you Don, when I did read Bulldog. I like your old avatar with that puppy asking for a brush  ;D.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 17, 2009, 09:43:41 AM
Excellent, this explains why the people called you Don, when I did read Bulldog. I like your old avatar with that puppy asking for a brush  ;D.

Looked for it, but I can't seem to find that avatar.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on February 17, 2009, 09:57:31 AM
Looked for it, but I can't seem to find that avatar.

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=8892;type=avatar)

;)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 17, 2009, 12:34:39 PM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=8892;type=avatar)

;)



Thanks much - it's back in my computer now.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 17, 2009, 03:00:17 PM
Could someone post pictures (I'd suggest: not too big, all of the same size) of the different MCAlain Bach sets?

Individual releases and the box(es) to which the different sets correspond...

Would be great to get an idea that way, supported by the all-important visual.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gvqsdJb8L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M8VBQFJRL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412MPD4JD5L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BF9M4290L._SL160_AA115_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614B4XR6GEL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5183A33CETL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bdyOLd-TL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K8CA1K0TL._SL160_AA115_.jpg)


I take it that the silver one is the Third ("Silber-mann organs")... I am told that the re-issued one [first picture] is the Second... I gather the one with Bach popping up might be the first? (Or the original issue of the 2nd.)

Does anyone have the 2nd and 3rd... and what do they (dis)like about them, in comparison?! Thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 17, 2009, 03:41:11 PM

This is the new release of the second set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gvqsdJb8L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) 

The AoF does not belong to any of the series as such. She recorded the work twice (the first was recorded upon the Marcussen organ, Sct. Laurents Kerk Rotterdam (note: not Alkmaar). The picture displays the second recording. The first has - to my knowledge - never beem released on CD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5183A33CETL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) 

Ths is the first release of the third set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K8CA1K0TL._SL160_AA115_.jpg)

These are the the ones I own. I do not know the other pictures, - but the silvery picture (first in the second row) depicts the Müller organ in Haarlem, and must be the third set.


The first integral (from 1959 - ca 1964 on exclusively Danish organs) was - to my knowledge - never released on CD. I know it only from LPs and do not own it. It is not that innovative, and I never understood, why it caused a stir when it was released. Maybe the argument was the Danish organs (mostly Marcussen and Frobenius organs).


Does anyone have the 2nd and 3rd... and what do they (dis)like about them, in comparison?! Thanks!

From my point of view the second set is preferable for sheer musical reasons. It is played upon good neo-baroque organs (Marcussen, Metzler et.c.) and it is a lively and expressive account, whereas the third set - played upon well restored baroque organs - makes a more calm, but also more "grandiose"  impression. I have never made a direct comparison, but it feels like the tempi are a bit slower, and the period instruments are more impressive, whether you want it or not. Ideally you should have both sets.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 17, 2009, 05:03:50 PM
I agree completely with Premont.

Both sets are worth of attention, but the second one is probably preferable (and cheaper at the moment).

The silvery picture is just an image of the box where all the 14 cds were collected, when you bought the complete package of the third set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 17, 2009, 08:14:37 PM
This is the new release of the second set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gvqsdJb8L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) 

The AoF does not belong to any of the series as such. She recorded the work twice (the first was recorded upon the Marcussen organ, Sct. Laurents Kerk Rotterdam (note: not Alkmaar). The picture displays the second recording. The first has - to my knowledge - never beem released on CD.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5183A33CETL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) 

Ths is the first release of the third set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K8CA1K0TL._SL160_AA115_.jpg)

These are the the ones I own. I do not know the other pictures, - but the silvery picture (first in the second row) depicts the Müller organ in Haarlem, and must be the third set.


The first integral (from 1959 - ca 1964 on exclusively Danish organs) was - to my knowledge - never released on CD. I know it only from LPs and do not own it. It is not that innovative, and I never understood, why it caused a stir when it was released. Maybe the argument was the Danish organs (mostly Marcussen and Frobenius organs).


From my point of view the second set is preferable for sheer musical reasons. It is played upon good neo-baroque organs (Marcussen, Metzler et.c.) and it is a lively and expressive account, whereas the third set - played upon well restored baroque organs - makes a more calm, but also more "grandiose"  impression. I have never made a direct comparison, but it feels like the tempi are a bit slower, and the period instruments are more impressive, whether you want it or not. Ideally you should have both sets.



I will probably get the third set since I already have most of the singles that make up the second set.  These sets are now released under WarnerMusic anyway. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2009, 02:38:38 AM
Re: MCAlain Sets:

Hmmm, what a pickle. I like neo-baroque organs... but I also like a bit of the grandiose.  ::)

I suppose it's easy since I have neither set: Start with the inexpensive one and wait until Warner re-issues the 3rd set and sends it to me.

Has anyone got the SACD set with Knud Vad? I don't particularly like the non-conformist, shelf-unfriendly format (fancy though it is), but if it has great merits...

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/4011222217714.jpg)

p.s. i just realize that JPC sells "its" Weinberger Bach Organ Works set for a paltry 49 Euros (compared to something rather ridiculous at Amazon). That's a set I respect very much. And of course it's complete-complete-complete... moreso than Stockmeier who was already pretty completist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 18, 2009, 07:10:19 AM
About the Knud Vad Bach organ integral:

The entire set is played upon the Marcussen organ in Sorø Klosterkirke, Denmark, where Vad has been resident organist, as long as I can remember. The organ was constructed (reconstructed) by Poul  Gerhard Andersen in 1942 on the basis of surviving notes about the registration and pipe-scaling of the former monastery church organ. Nobody knows, if it sounds like the old baroque organ, but it has certainly got a lot of character. and it is often used for recordings (of Bach and Buxtehude in particular).

Knud Vad´s integral is a live recording. Unfortunately there are a few unavoidable wrong notes and lapses of mind, but given the magnitude of the task, they are relative few and not essentially disturbing. The recorded sound is very good, maybe with the small reservation, that rather close miking - or maybe a combination of close and more distant miking, makes the reeds, especially the 16´ Fagot in the pedal, sound a tad more rattling than it sounds in the real life. In this respect the recordings by Lionel Rogg (part of his third Bach integral was recorded there) and Simon Preston (part of his Bach integral) sound more natural.

Knud Vad is a pupil of Anton Heiller and contemporary with Wolfgang Stockmeier and Peter Hurford, and his interpretation is - like theirs - marked by the transition period from "preauthentic" to "authentic" style, which is to say, that his style is not completely up to the informed style we are used to to day. He has f.ex.got an inclination for legato touch, and there are some unnecessary changes of registration first and foremost in the choral free works. But generally his registrations are clear and efficient, and often, in the chorales in particular, very colourful and neo-baroque. His rhythm is flexible within reasonable limits with a firm and assured basic pulse.

In our actual commercial situation, having access to rather many outstanding recordings of Bach´s organ works, I would not reccommend Vad as a first choice. Not even a second, but still he is worth knowing, and the cost is affordable. For organ enthusiasts on the other hand the set is almost a must have, as it represents an outstanding portrait of this important organ.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 18, 2009, 08:34:04 AM
About the Knud Vad Bach organ integral:

The entire set is played upon the Marcussen organ ...  it represents an outstanding portrait of this important organ.

That was VERY helpful. Many thanks. Although I think in the present situation it is our duty to buy as much Bach as possible to jump-start the economy again.

While I am at it: Which of the cycles you have would you consider worth listening all-through?
Not the silly listing of "the best" ... but which ones are in one way or another so special that you'd like to see others having heard them?

Maybe along those lines (just an example):
If someone has not got Walcha (I or II), would you say that's more 'pressing' than MCAlain (II)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 18, 2009, 08:59:38 AM
... Although I think in the present situation it is our duty to buy as much Bach as possible to jump-start the economy again.

Well, that sounds logical for me  ;D.

… it would be interesting to have some impression about Herrick.

I thought that his set was rather popular here, but apparently it isn’t.

I am enjoying his work (not problem with registrations or tempi), especially the gorgeous sound of those Metzler organs in Switzerland.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 18, 2009, 09:25:30 AM

… it would be interesting to have some impression about Herrick.

I thought that his set was rather popular here, but apparently it isn’t.

I am enjoying his work (not problem with registrations or tempi), especially the gorgeous sound of those Metzler organs in Switzerland.


I very much enjoy Herrick's Bach.  True, Herrick isn't the man to turn to if you want your Bach sharply phrased with plenty of bite.  But he has a very attractive legato and great rhythmic flow.  I find him spiritually uplifting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 18, 2009, 05:48:17 PM
That was VERY helpful. Many thanks. Although I think in the present situation it is our duty to buy as much Bach as possible to jump-start the economy again.


I have been helping to jump-start the UK economy rather than the US economy since I have been buying a lot of CD's from MDT at Derby, England.   ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 18, 2009, 05:50:15 PM
I very much enjoy Herrick's Bach.  True, Herrick isn't the man to turn to if you want your Bach sharply phrased with plenty of bite.  But he has a very attractive legato and great rhythmic flow.  I find him spiritually uplifting.

I have a few CD's of Sweelinck's works performed by Herrick, but no Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 09:25:19 AM
I very much enjoy Herrick's Bach.  True, Herrick isn't the man to turn to if you want your Bach sharply phrased with plenty of bite.  But he has a very attractive legato and great rhythmic flow.  I find him spiritually uplifting.

I totally agree, Don. His playing is full of inner peace, even when he comes to the concertos. I have listened to the seventh disc -named The Italian Connection- three times this day. Well, after all, I'm on vacation  8).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 09:42:03 AM
Christoph Wolff and Ton Koopman speaking about Bach and Buxtehude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfKPL8asYd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVCtuxTn_T4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud5QxAxnriI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7rO3QCnTU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSMGBMhT_zo

I only watched the first part, but seems interesting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 19, 2009, 08:05:02 PM
I have Alain's third set, and a primary complaint with it is that it is too resonant for my taste, all of that reverberation obscures the counterpoint.  It works on headphones, but with loudspeakers it is a bit of a soup.  How is the engineering of the second set, particularly with regard to clarity? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 19, 2009, 08:35:31 PM
Hi, nut-job.

Clearly the space is less resonant in the 2nd set.

Here an example:

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=d797ddc
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 19, 2009, 10:53:13 PM
Hi, nut-job.

Clearly the space is less resonant in the 2nd set.

Here an example:

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=d797ddc

Very nice!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 20, 2009, 01:56:51 AM
Clearly the space is less resonant in the 2nd set.

Ah... even on computer speakers, Bach remains a miracle. I think that's it... MCAlain2, here I come! I have to go downtown today, anyway.

Also: What does anyone know about L.Rogg's Bach Cycle for Harmonia Mundi?!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 20, 2009, 07:49:47 AM
I totally agree, Don. His playing is full of inner peace, even when he comes to the concertos. I have listened to the seventh disc -named The Italian Connection- three times this day. Well, after all, I'm on vacation  8).

I agree about the inner peace, a fine way to put it, and this quality suits many of the works well e.g. the triosonatas and many of the chorale preludes, but elsewhere I miss some passion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 20, 2009, 07:52:54 AM

While I am at it: Which of the cycles you have would you consider worth listening all-through?
Not the silly listing of "the best" ... but which ones are in one way or another so special that you'd like to see others having heard them?

Maybe along those lines (just an example):
If someone has not got Walcha (I or II), would you say that's more 'pressing' than MCAlain (II)?

A difficult question to answer in short. I shall give it a thought during the next week (have to do my work in the week-end) and even comment on Rogg.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 20, 2009, 08:18:46 AM
I agree about the inner peace, a fine way to put it, and this quality suits many of the works well e.g. the triosonatas and many of the chorale preludes, but elsewhere I miss some passion.

The last thing I want to hear in the trio-sonatas is inner peace.  I was that fascinating counterpoint in my face.  Passion, I'm not sure that's helpful in this music.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 09:02:25 AM
Ah... even on computer speakers, Bach remains a miracle. I think that's it... MCAlain2, here I come! I have to go downtown today, anyway.

Also: What does anyone know about L.Rogg's Bach Cycle for Harmonia Mundi?!


I've had this cycle for many years and  never tire of listening to it.  For my money, Rogg beats out just about all other contenders.  Be warned that it isn't "complete" by today's standards. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 20, 2009, 09:14:31 AM
I've had this cycle for many years and  never tire of listening to it.  For my money, Rogg beats out just about all other contenders.  Be warned that it isn't "complete" by today's standards. 

Since the set is out of print, this is just gratuitous torture.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 20, 2009, 09:56:49 AM
The last thing I want to hear in the trio-sonatas is inner peace.  I was that fascinating counterpoint in my face.  Passion, I'm not sure that's helpful in this music.



There is no drama in these sober and playful works, and accordingly Herricks interpretation is nice and -as Don pointed out - uplifting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 10:00:05 AM
Since the set is out of print, this is just gratuitous torture.


I have every confidence that Harmonia Mundi will reissue the set. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 20, 2009, 11:04:35 AM
There is no drama in these sober and playful works, and accordingly Herricks interpretation is nice and -as Don pointed out - uplifting.

Actually I have Herrick's, and it is nice.  Johannsen is best, IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 20, 2009, 11:06:49 AM
I agree about the inner peace, a fine way to put it, and this quality suits many of the works well e.g. the triosonatas and many of the chorale preludes, but elsewhere I miss some passion.

I agree with you, Premont. Last night, when I was listening to Herrick to play the “Dorian” Toccata and Fugue, I thought the same.

A problem with these organ works is their colossal range. Someone could entitle a complete set, as Harold Bloom, Bach: The Invention of the Human. Complete Organ Works. That would be great because every human emotion seems present in them; but who can express all of them, the whole spectrum?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 03:33:16 PM
I have every confidence that Harmonia Mundi will reissue the set. 

I have the Lionel Rogg Complete Organ Works on LP released by EMI.  Did he record any set with HM?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2009, 03:37:06 PM
I have the Lionel Rogg Complete Organ Works on LP released by EMI.  Did he record any set with HM?

Yes Sir.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 03:41:14 PM
Yes Sir.

Has EMI ever released his set on CD?  The Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland section of this EMI CD just sounds great ...


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 20, 2009, 04:30:41 PM
I've had this cycle for many years and  never tire of listening to it.  For my money, Rogg beats out just about all other contenders.  Be warned that it isn't "complete" by today's standards. 

Oh, goody... because I am getting that, very soon.

And inspired by all that Bach-organ-talk, I got this today to shorten the wait:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RTBMVD03L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006G9H8O/nectarandambrUK-21)
Not bad... "grand", but mildly underwhelming given how much I like his Art of the Fugue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 08:47:37 PM
It appears the only set by Marie-Claire Alain that is more readily available now is her first recording.  I noticed a set of the Bach Organ Works by her was available during the MDT sale on the WarnerMusic box sets back in January.  It was probably the first or the second recording as the price was too low to have been the third recording ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 21, 2009, 12:23:54 AM
It appears the only set by Marie-Claire Alain that is more readily available now is her first recording.  I noticed a set of the Bach Organ Works by her was available during the MDT sale on the WarnerMusic box sets back in January.  It was probably the first or the second recording as the price was too low to have been the third recording ...

I doubt very much, that it is the first, as I newer have seen it released on CD.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 21, 2009, 12:25:02 AM
Has EMI ever released his set on CD?  The Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland section of this EMI CD just sounds great ...




Only parts of it. A twofer with extracts are to be released soon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 21, 2009, 12:34:36 AM
I have the Lionel Rogg Complete Organ Works on LP released by EMI.  Did he record any set with HM?

He recorded Bachs organ works three times (until now)

1) For the Swiss radio 1962 on the Metzler organ, Grossmünster, Zurich, released by Oryx (only LP)

2) For Harmonia Mundi 1970 on the J.A.Silbermann organ, Arlesheim

3) For EMI ca. 1976 on different organs, among which the Metzler organ in Cathedral Sct. Pierre, Geneve and the Marcussen organ, Monastery Church, Sorø. More complete recording than the two first set´s. Originally Quadrophonic recording on LP, very few items from this has been released on CD. I only remember the CD quoted by you and the twofer which is to be released soon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 05:31:05 AM
He recorded Bachs organ works three times (until now)

1) For the Swiss radio 1962 on the Metzler organ, Grossmünster, Zurich, released by Oryx (only LP)

2) For Harmonia Mundi 1970 on the J.A.Silbermann organ, Arlesheim

3) For EMI ca. 1976 on different organs, among which the Metzler organ in Cathedral Sct. Pierre, Geneve and the Marcussen organ, Monastery Church, Sorø. More complete recording than the two first set´s. Originally Quadrophonic recording on LP, very few items from this has been released on CD. I only remember the CD quoted by you and the twofer which is to be released soon.

I just wonder what EMI is waiting for.  IMO, that set should be quite good, though I have not listened to the set in over 20 years.  The records, just as all my other LP's, are in pristine condition (played only once).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 09:01:53 AM
This certainly looks like a DVD I should have.  I imagine there will be English subtitle ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FcgHXc4TL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 10:23:51 AM
The Bach Trio Sonatas are some of my most favorite organ works.  I particularly enjoy the performance by Marie-Claire Alain on this second cycle recording I bought in the late 80's.  She was absolutely fantastic on the organ and here are the CD artworks on the original CD ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2009, 10:28:50 AM
The Bach Trio Sonatas are some of my most favorite organ works.  I particularly enjoy the performance by Marie-Claire Alain on this second cycle recording I bought in the late 80's.  She was absolutely fantastic on the organ and here are the CD artworks on the original CD ...

Just listening to Weinberger's E-flat Trio Sonata. A bit fast, for my taste... It's a cycle that impresses me lots as a whole, but in individual parts I can't say that it features a lot of my favorite interpretations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 10:35:52 AM
Just listening to Weinberger's E-flat Trio Sonata. A bit fast, for my taste... It's a cycle that impresses me lots as a whole, but in individual parts I can't say that it features a lot of my favorite interpretations.

I do not have any organ pieces by Weinberger and as such have no clue as to how he plays and how fast is fast.  I do, however, love the performance by Marie-Claire Alain.  I think the pace is just right ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 21, 2009, 11:08:01 AM
The Bach Trio Sonatas are some of my most favorite organ works.  I particularly enjoy the performance by Marie-Claire Alain on this second cycle recording I bought in the late 80's.  She was absolutely fantastic on the organ and here are the CD artworks on the original CD ...

This recording of the Triosonatas is, as far as I can read from the cover, the fourth (!) recording Alain made (in the time between the second and the third integral). Why she only recorded the triosonatas one more time, I do not know, but I agree, that it is very good, very chamber music like and rhythmically alert.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2009, 12:22:48 PM
You are incredible, dear Premont!

I have been finding out: The Trio Sonatas included in the M-C Alain second set were recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France. I don’t know the recording date because isn’t delivered with my set, but it’s said that all of them were recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. It seems that the original set included 21 LPs.
   
In the Coopmv’s disc (a digital recording) Alain plays the organ at the église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 12:24:42 PM
You are incredible, dear Premont!

I have been finding out: The Trio Sonatas included in the M-C Alain second set were recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France. I don’t know the recording date because isn’t delivered with my set, but it’s said that all of them were recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. It seems that the original set included 21 LPs.
   
In the Coopmv’s disc (a digital recording) Alain plays on the organ at the église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.


It says 1986 edition on the back panel of the CD.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2009, 12:30:47 PM
It says 1986 edition on the back panel of the CD.

It could be the production date. But my knowledge is just "virtual" at the moment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 21, 2009, 02:06:30 PM
I do not have any organ pieces by Weinberger and as such have no clue as to how he plays and how fast is fast. 

Some of Weinberger's recordings are must-haves:  Vols. 3-5 and a fantastic Art of Fugue.  As for his general style, I'd call it severe and sharp.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 02:49:01 PM
Some of Weinberger's recordings are must-haves:  Vols. 3-5 and a fantastic Art of Fugue.  As for his general style, I'd call it severe and sharp.

BACH Complete Organ Works. Gerhard Weinberger. CPO 22cds

So this set is actually quite recent.  Is the SQ quite uniform across all 22 discs?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 21, 2009, 03:11:45 PM
BACH Complete Organ Works. Gerhard Weinberger. CPO 22cds

So this set is actually quite recent.  Is the SQ quite uniform across all 22 discs?

On some of the discs, the acoustic is rather swimmy and damages detail.  I've got most of the discs in the series, but with hindsight, I would have been just as happy with only those volumes I recommended.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2009, 03:18:27 PM
On some of the discs, the acoustic is rather swimmy and damages detail.  I've got most of the discs in the series, but with hindsight, I would have been just as happy with only those volumes I recommended.
I haven't noticed much variation in the rather good SQ. I may not have listened very intently to every disc, but I did listen to the whole set in over a few days... in close enough proximity to notice aberrations.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 03:23:07 PM
On some of the discs, the acoustic is rather swimmy and damages detail.  I've got most of the discs in the series, but with hindsight, I would have been just as happy with only those volumes I recommended.

In hindsight, I should have picked up all the singles by Marie-Claire Alain since I now have a little less than half of the entire works.  Back in the mid to late 80's, when those CD's were released one at a time, it took a bit of vigilance not to miss any new release.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 03:34:06 PM
So how does Gerhard Weinberger stack up against Helmut Walcha?  I thought Walcha was a class act and lately I find Marie-Claire Alain probably belongs in that special class as well ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 21, 2009, 04:32:13 PM
So how does Gerhard Weinberger stack up against Helmut Walcha?  I thought Walcha was a class act and lately I find Marie-Claire Alain probably belongs in that special class as well ...

You can't really compare professorial, historically informed Weinberger on Silbermann and other 'original' organs and the "old school" Walcha grandezza d'Bacho. You could think of it as a complement or the antidote.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 04:40:49 PM
You can't really compare professorial, historically informed Weinberger on Silbermann and other 'original' organs and the "old school" Walcha grandezza d'Bacho. You could think of it as a complement or the antidote.

Wolfgang Rubsam has been professor of organ at Northwestern and was a student of both Helmut Walcha and Marie-Claire Alain.  I find his organ playing quite inspiring too ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 11:05:23 PM
How come there has been hardly any mention of Ton Koopman?  Isn't he one of the important and currently active organists (given Leonhardt is well into his 80's, as is Marie-Claire Alain)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 12:05:30 AM
Some of Weinberger's recordings are must-haves:  Vols. 3-5 and a fantastic Art of Fugue.  As for his general style, I'd call it severe and sharp.

Sharp? I have volumes 9-16. They sound very soft. It pleases the ear but also blurs out complexity.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 07:49:35 AM
Sharp? I have volumes 9-16. They sound very soft.

So turn up the volume button.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 09:14:05 AM
So turn up the volume button.

Soft is not same as quiet and loud is not same as sharp. Turning up the volume would give louder softness.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 22, 2009, 11:39:25 AM
I have too many recordings of the Bach organ works to be justified, so some are going on the auction block. 

This may not be the most sensible thing, but I tend to use a few of the more obscure pieces that are my particular favorites as a benchmark.  The Trio sonatas are among them, also the Canzone in d-minor and the Alla Breve. 

The Canzone is an archaic style fugue, and Alain is a nightmare, soupy recording, extremely intrusive ornamentation all over the place, unlistenable in my opinion.   

Another complete set I have is Walcha, and he does a very decent job of the Canzone, and the sound is good.  Unfortunately this set does not have uniformly good audio quality, with some of the recordings exhibiting annoying distortion of bad frequency balance.  Walcha is staying for the gems that are in the set, although I can't consider it a really complete set, some of it sounds too bad for me to enjoy listening to.

I also have a set by George Ritchie on Raven records.  This guy is unknown and I get the impression that the record label positions itself as an audiophile outfit.  The set seems to be conceived partly as a showcase for modern American organs.  Actually it is satisfying because the modern organs are very nicely made, and the guy performs with skill.  Not inspiring, perhaps,  but it sounds good and you can hear what Bach has written.

I also have a few random discs which I auditioned.  Herrick's Canzone is rather fast, not bad in terms of his performance style, but the recording is too reverberant for my taste.  I won't be getting any more from him. 

I also have volume 11 of Weinberger's set, which I think is absolutely spectacular.  There is less resonance than you tend to hear in organ recordings, which I like.  His performance also brings out individual voices better than any of the others I listened to today.  I think I will be getting his complete cycle with the proceeds of the Alain sale.   I must admit I find a lot of the comments about his set on this thread quite puzzling.  The audio engineering I find excellent (at least in volume 11) and his performance is exactly to my taste.

One recording that I have to mention is the old Richter on Decca (recorded in the 1950's) using the organ in Victoria Hall in Geneva (home of the OSR).  Includes the Passacaglia and Fugue in c-minor.   Wow, just superb.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 22, 2009, 01:04:26 PM
Sharp? I have volumes 9-16. They sound very soft. It pleases the ear but also blurs out complexity.

As far as I can read, Don talks about Weinberger´s style of interpretation, calling it sharp. I can fully agree with this.

And as far as I can see, you are talking about the character of the sound , and I do not find it that soft. What do you use for reference?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 22, 2009, 01:08:20 PM
Interesting considerations, Nut-job. But maybe it is a bit restricted to use the Canzona as reference, -Bach´s organ works are much more than that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 01:21:43 PM
Soft is not same as quiet and loud is not same as sharp. Turning up the volume would give louder softness.

Can't disagree with that logic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 01:25:18 PM
I also have volume 11 of Weinberger's set, which I think is absolutely spectacular.  There is less resonance than you tend to hear in organ recordings, which I like.  His performance also brings out individual voices better than any of the others I listened to today.  I think I will be getting his complete cycle with the proceeds of the Alain sale.   I must admit I find a lot of the comments about his set on this thread quite puzzling.  The audio engineering I find excellent (at least in volume 11) and his performance is exactly to my taste.


Check out Vol. 15 - the sound environment swims with the fishes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 22, 2009, 01:26:20 PM
As far as I can read, Don talks about Weinberger´s style of interpretation, calling it sharp. I can fully agree with this.

What does it mean to play organ sharp? Pressing the keys "sharply"?

And as far as I can see, you are talking about the character of the sound , and I do not find it that soft. What do you use for reference?

Rübsam on Naxos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 01:27:07 PM
As far as I can read, Don talks about Weinberger´s style of interpretation, calling it sharp.

Correct.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 22, 2009, 01:29:23 PM
What does it mean to play organ sharp? Pressing the keys "sharply"?

Rübsam on Naxos.

It means the same thing as sharp phrasing from any keyboard instrument.  The performer is in charge of this feature.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 22, 2009, 01:38:30 PM
What does it mean to play organ sharp? Pressing the keys "sharply"?

He does not play the organ sharp, nor is this what I wrote.

But his style of interpretation is sharp, f. ex. his articulation is pointed , and his agogics often rather abrupt.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 22, 2009, 01:42:05 PM
Rübsam on Naxos.

In which respect is Weinberger "softer" than Rübsam??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 22, 2009, 01:55:30 PM
But his style of interpretation is sharp, f. ex. his articulation is pointed , and his agogics often rather abrupt.

I'd agree, and that's what I like about it.

Shame the the Rubsom/Philips cycle is not currently available.  It was out in a CD edition a few years ago but was quite expensive.  Seems like it would be a good candidate for a collector box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 22, 2009, 04:20:27 PM
I'd agree, and that's what I like about it.

Shame the the Ruebsam/Philips cycle is not currently available.  It was out in a CD edition a few years ago but was quite expensive.  Seems like it would be a good candidate for a collector box.
Torrents/downloading aren't my thing at all (not even primarily an ethical question, which would be little issue in case of something so solidly OOP, in any case), but perhaps some are interested in it.

Philips Cycle of Ruebsam's Bach at torrent reactor dot net (http://www.torrentreactor.net/torrents/2720297/Bach-Organ-Works-Wolfram-Rubsam-(Phillips-16-CDs)-(2S%2F2L)) or MiniNova (http://www.mininova.org/tor/2169455), respectively.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 22, 2009, 04:32:58 PM
Just arrived this week:

Ullrich Böhme
Orgelbüchlein / Little Organ Book
Querstand, 2007

It is a well-recorded disc, but sometimes uninspired; specially in Puer Natus in Bethelhem BWV 603 or Ich Ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ BWV639, two of my favorite preludes. I expected rather more when is announced as Ullrich Böhme An der Bach Orgel in der Thomaskirche zu Leipzig. Obviously, the “Bach organ” is not the instrument used by Bach, but an instrument built by Gerald Woehl (2000) in order to complement the old Sauer organ (1889), which is not suitable for Bach’s music.

I have read two explanations about the organ design:

- It was designed to look similar to the old organ on which Bach played in the Paulinerkirche.

- It is based on an organ designed by Bach's uncle Johann Christoph for the Georgenkirche in Eisenach.

The booklet does not say anything about it.

BTW, the booklet is fragile and stapled to the cover, which is very uncomfortable.

Here two (fine) examples from the CD:

Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ BWV 604

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=fd198f0

Das alte Jahr vergangen ist BWV 614

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=22771f4
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2009, 03:02:20 AM

Just arrived:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VTRPQ06TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Complete (not really) Bach Organ Works,
Lionel Rogg (2nd ? Cycle, Harmonia Mundi)
Silbermann Organ in Arlesheim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/goodmusicguide-20)

[Got it used (a bit wear on the box) for ~$40,-]
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 08:41:28 AM
Just arrived:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VTRPQ06TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Complete (not really) Bach Organ Works,
Lionel Rogg (2nd ? Cycle, Harmonia Mundi)
Silbermann Organ in Arlesheim (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/goodmusicguide-20)

[Got it used (a bit wear on the box) for ~$40,-]


Very fortunate to find it for $40, sellers on Amazon want a much larger sum to part with it.

One more comment I have, this set (far from complete) is gorgeous

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HHP0BTGRL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

What I really wish is that when record companies dice up the complete sets they would divide them by genre (i.e., all of the preludes and fugues, all of the trio sonatas, all of the concertos).  To many times they issue them as recitals, meaning that each volume contains 1/3 music I'm interested in and 2/3 music I would never listen to again if I lived to be 1000 years old.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 23, 2009, 09:20:56 AM
One more comment I have, this set (far from complete) is gorgeous
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HHP0BTGRL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've been talking my mouth fussy (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html) extolling the virtues of that set ever since it was (re-)issued in 2005.  ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 10:46:34 AM
What I really wish is that when record companies dice up the complete sets they would divide them by genre (i.e., all of the preludes and fugues, all of the trio sonatas, all of the concertos).  To many times they issue them as recitals, meaning that each volume contains 1/3 music I'm interested in and 2/3 music I would never listen to again if I lived to be 1000 years old.


I can't agree.  I prefer some variety for each volume.  Also, how could you only be interested in 1/3 of Bach's organ music?  If that's true, why bother buying a complete set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 11:14:37 AM
I can't agree.  I prefer some variety for each volume.  Also, how could you only be interested in 1/3 of Bach's organ music?  If that's true, why bother buying a complete set?

If I want variety, I am free to listen to selections from various discs. 

As to why I bother with complete sets, in the current era of value priced box sets it is cheaper to buy the complete set than the discs which contain the music I am interested in, particularly for record labels who package a few preludes a fugues that I am interested in with two dozen chorale preludes, which I am typically not interested in. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 11:32:17 AM
If I want variety, I am free to listen to selections from various discs. 

As to why I bother with complete sets, in the current era of value priced box sets it is cheaper to buy the complete set than the discs which contain the music I am interested in, particularly for record labels who package a few preludes a fugues that I am interested in with two dozen chorale preludes, which I am typically not interested in. 


You and I are opposites in these matters.  I see listening to selections from various discs a waste of labor, and I never buy any recordings I'm not interested in.  Also, what don't you like about Bach's chorale preludes?  Do you love Bach's Leipzig Chorales?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 12:24:25 PM
Also, what don't you like about Bach's chorale preludes?  Do you love Bach's Leipzig Chorales?

I don't even know.  There are so many of chorale preludes, and if you play a Bach organ CD you end up listening to at least 20 in a row, which is more than I can take.  As a result, I have no idea which ones I like and which ones I don't. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 02:19:31 PM
I don't even know.  There are so many of chorale preludes, and if you play a Bach organ CD you end up listening to at least 20 in a row, which is more than I can take.  As a result, I have no idea which ones I like and which ones I don't. 

The only single Bach organ discs I know of that have at least 20 chorale preludes in a row are discs devoted to Bach chorale preludes.

Might be a good idea to jot down those chorale preludes you like very much to insure that you don't buy in the future a disc of little enjoyment for yourself.

I'm adding another paragraph just to offer my opinion that Bach's Leipzig Chorales are amazing pieces.  They are often found all together on 2-cd sets, so you don't have to acquire any complete Bach organ set to get them.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 02:47:49 PM
The only single Bach organ discs I know of that have at least 20 chorale preludes in a row are discs devoted to Bach chorale preludes.

You are right, the disc I was thinking only has 11.  Off by a factor of two

Quote
Might be a good idea to jot down those chorale preludes you like very much to insure that you don't buy in the future a disc of little enjoyment for yourself.

I'm adding another paragraph just to offer my opinion that Bach's Leipzig Chorales are amazing pieces.  They are often found all together on 2-cd sets, so you don't have to acquire any complete Bach organ set to get them.

As I have mentioned above, I currently have 3 complete sets (Alain, Walcha, Ritchie) with one on the auction block (Alain) and one on order (Weinberger) so I will not have to acquire anything to hear them.  Maybe I'll queue a few up this evening.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 23, 2009, 02:52:27 PM
Ullrich Böhme
Orgelbüchlein / Little Organ Book
Querstand, 2007

It is a well-recorded disc, but sometimes uninspired; specially in Puer Natus in Bethelhem BWV 603 or Ich Ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ BWV639, two of my favorite preludes. I expected rather more when is announced as Ullrich Böhme An der Bach Orgel in der Thomaskirche zu Leipzig. Obviously, the “Bach organ” is not the instrument used by Bach, but an instrument built by Gerald Woehl (2000) in order to complement the old Sauer organ (1889), which is not suitable for Bach’s music.

What did you expect? That a hitherto unknown autentic Bach organ suddenly had been discovered in the Thomas Kirche? Never-the-less you prompted me to relisten to the entire CD, and I find it a mixed pleasure. I do not think Böhme is to blame that much, he is an informed musician, and I find his interpretation committed and serious, maybe sometimes even a bit too serious. I do not like all his registrations, e.g. when he uses reeds with tremulant in plenum combinations, something he does here - and even more in his recording of the AoF. Neither is the problem with his Orgelbüchlein the recording as such, but first and foremost the sound of the organ. In these ears this is an organ without style and most of the stops lack a definite character. I would never be able to guess the organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 02:56:43 PM
You are right, the disc I was thinking only has 11.  Off by a factor of two

As I have mentioned above, I currently have 3 complete sets (Alain, Walcha, Ritchie) with one on the auction block (Alain) and one on order (Weinberger) so I will not have to acquire anything to hear them.  Maybe I'll queue a few up this evening.


This isn't getting us anywhere.  I keep talking about music that fits on one or two cds, and you keep bringing up complete sets.  What's that about?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 23, 2009, 03:02:37 PM
This isn't getting us anywhere.  I keep talking about music that fits on one or two cds, and you keep bringing up complete sets.  What's that about?

I don't get the question.  I already have three recordings of the chorale preludes you mentioned as part of three editions of Bach organ works.  You know, you are allowed to listen to individual discs from the complete sets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 23, 2009, 03:09:44 PM
I don't get the question.  I already have three recordings of the chorale preludes you mentioned as part of three editions of Bach organ works.  You know, you are allowed to listen to individual discs from the complete sets.


We're just at different points on the spectrum.  I was attempting to get some talk going about recordings of the Leipzig Chorales.  For this to happen in any decent fashion, covering only performances from complete Bach organ sets won't suffice at all.

However, I am becoming aware of the high regard that many members here have for complete sets of just about everything.  So never mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 25, 2009, 12:33:11 PM
What did you expect? That a hitherto unknown autentic Bach organ suddenly had been discovered in the Thomas Kirche?

No, Premont, I didn't expect a North German baroque organ suddenly founded in Leipzig, just some explanations in order to justify the organ's features and the models taken into account. Today is totally unthinkable to face this kind of work without some historical research, especially when a so historical place is concerned.

On the other hand, as you point out, the huge Böhme's "seriousness" could be the problem. This boy doesn't "play" the game; he doesn't flow with music (and the different pathos of the liturgical year). I feel, for instance, lost the joyful sense of the little bells in BWV 603. But probably I'm being unfair with Böhme because he is a very respectable organist.

Here some pictures of the "Bach church"  :):

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 25, 2009, 03:52:07 PM
Impressive looking organ! And with the 'sacred pineapple'!!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 27, 2009, 01:54:17 PM

Listened to volume 11 of Weinberger's Bach organ works series.  Track list is below.  Preludes and Fugues, Duets, the Canzone and Alla Breve were excellent.  The Chorale preludes made little impression on me, as usual.  Sorry, Bulldog :-[

Quote
# Prelude and Fugue, for organ in F minor, BWV 534 (BC J20)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Kyrie, Gott Vater in Ewigkeit (II), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung III/4), BWV 672 (BC K4)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Christe, aller Welt Trost (II), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung No. 5), BWV 673 (BC K5)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist (II), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung III/6), BWV 674 (BC K6)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr (V), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung III/7), BWV 675 (BC K7)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Fughetta super Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr, for organ (Clavier-Ubung III/9), BWV 677 (BC K9)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Fughetta super Dies sind die heilgen zehn Gebot, for organ (Clavier-Übung III/11), BWV 679 (BC K11)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Fughetta super Wir glauben all an einen Gott, for organ (Clavier-Übung III/13), BWV 681 (BC K13)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Vater unser im Himmelreich (III), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung No. 145), BWV 683 (BC K15)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam (II), chorale prelude for organ (Clavier-Übung III/17), BWV 685 (BC K17)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir (II), chorale prelude for organ á 4 (Clavier-Übung III/19), BWV 687 (BC K19)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Fuga super Jesus Christus unser Heiland, fugue for organ (Clavier-Übung III/21), BWV 689 (BC K21)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Alla breve, for organ in D major, BWV 589 (BC J64)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Canzona, for organ in D minor, BWV 588 (BC J80)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Duetto, for keyboard No. 1 in E minor (Clavier-Übung III No. 23), BWV 802 (BC J74)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Duetto, for keyboard No. 2 in F major (Clavier-Übung III No. 24), BWV 803 (BC J75)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Duetto, for keyboard No. 3 in G major (Clavier-Übung III No. 25), BWV 804 (BC J76)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Duetto, for keyboard No. 4 in A minor (Clavier-Übung III No. 26), BWV 805 (BC J77)
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger

# Toccata and Fugue, for organ in F major, BWV 540 (BC J39, 55, 73) Fuga in F
Composed by Johann Sebastian Bach
with Gerhard Weinberger
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 02:11:52 PM
Listened to volume 11 of Weinberger's Bach organ works series.  Track list is below.  Preludes and Fugues, Duets, the Canzone and Alla Breve were excellent.  The Chorale preludes made little impression on me, as usual.  Sorry, Bulldog :-[


I don't have any idea what you're sorry about.  Please clue me in?

I think I understand now.  You're the guy who isn't thrilled with Bach chorale preludes.  Hopefully, someday you will come across an organist who makes these works come alive for you.  In the meantime, enjoy the rest of Bach's music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 27, 2009, 06:04:14 PM
No, Premont, I didn't expect a North German baroque organ suddenly founded in Leipzig, just some explanations in order to justify the organ's features and the models taken into account. Today is totally unthinkable to face this kind of work without some historical research, especially when a so historical place is concerned.

On the other hand, as you point out, the huge Böhme's "seriousness" could be the problem. This boy doesn't "play" the game; he doesn't flow with music (and the different pathos of the liturgical year). I feel, for instance, lost the joyful sense of the little bells in BWV 603. But probably I'm being unfair with Böhme because he is a very respectable organist.

Here some pictures of the "Bach church"  :):



Here is a Mass in B Minor concert recorded right at the St Thomas Church in Leipzig.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31XYa9Gx98L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 27, 2009, 06:16:38 PM
Listened to volume 11 of Weinberger's Bach organ works series.  Track list is below.  Preludes and Fugues, Duets, the Canzone and Alla Breve were excellent.  The Chorale preludes made little impression on me, as usual.  Sorry, Bulldog :-[


At the moment, I am still undecided if I should spring for the Gerhard Weinberger's set.  I am definitely going for the third recording by Marie-Claire Alain if I can find the set at the right price, which happens from time to time ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on February 27, 2009, 09:59:54 PM
At the moment, I am still undecided if I should spring for the Gerhard Weinberger's set.  I am definitely going for the third recording by Marie-Claire Alain if I can find the set at the right price, which happens from time to time ...

I have Weinberger's set on order.  I'm selling my Alain set on ebay.  Auction is in progress.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on February 28, 2009, 01:19:26 AM
I have been enjoying Preludes & Fugues (Rübsam/Naxos 8.550652) which I bought used and got last Thursday.

The backside of the CD case lists Preludes and Fugues as separate tracks but they aren't on the CD. Also, BWV542 is listed as Prelude & Fugue instead of Fantasia & Fugue. Anyway, the music kicks ass and that's what counts.  0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 06:23:58 AM
I have Weinberger's set on order.  I'm selling my Alain set on ebay.  Auction is in progress.



I can get the Weinberger's set at a great price but do not want to end up having a box set that ultimately may prove unsatisfactory.  I have yet to find any uniformly positive opinions of him ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 28, 2009, 06:51:57 AM
I can get the Weinberger's set at a great price but do not want to end up having a box set that ultimately may prove unsatisfactory.  I have yet to find any uniformly positive opinions of him ...

I can't help you, either, because I don't think it _is_ a set that one could say "uniformly positive" things about. (I don't know a complete set, yet, about which one could, though.) That said, I think it's certainly not a set that will prove unsatisfactory. (In some excitement, I put it on my "Best of 2008 List for WETA, actually... in case it sounds like I don't actually like it.)

Quote
#9 – (Reissue) – Bach, Complete Organ Works, Gerhard Weinberger – cpo 777363-2 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442)

For some reason, I’ve not come across (or particularly noted) many re-issues that weren’t extravagant box sets. So here’s the first of a few, in this case the complete organ works of Bach. Gerhard Weinberger has been recording this canon since 1997, and he finished earlier this year with a (world premiere) recording of the recently rediscovered Chorale Fantasia BWV 1128 and Die Kunst der Fuge. This is the most complete set of Bach’s organ works yet, including more Bach (and works once thought to be by Bach) than my Wolfgang Stockmeier set on Art & Music. I wasn’t very fond of the last two releases: on volume 20 the Carl Christian Hofmann Organ (St.Marien Mecterstädt, 1770) is tuned in a way that cannot please my ears and Die Kunst der Fuge I have heard more to my liking, elsewhere. [I am referring to Isoir, there] But hearing the 19 preceding volumes, only some of which I had already owned, I was delighted throughout.

Weinberger doesn’t aim for bombast (near-impossible, on the historic instruments from Saxony and Thuringia, anyway), and he is not the most impressive in some of the ‘biggest hits’ works. (Karl Richter’s 3 CD set is still a mandatory addition to any Bach organ collection, no matter who the interpreter). But apart from minor quibbles, it is a magnificent complete set.
---WETA
I would add to that: Weinberger is not the set to _excite_ you. It doesn't "impress" right out of the stalls. But it did sway me with its seriousness, scrupulous playing and registration... and the very consistently high quality. I've just received Marie-Claire Alain II and am just about through the Rogg II set (neither of them complete, compared to Weinberger), which were my two most recent Bach Organ Works sets...

I may have something to say about Weinberger in comparison that you might be able to relate to, better. One thing I absolutely love--although it has nothing to do with the quality of the set, per se--is that they put the "famous" Toccata & Fugue where it belongs, namely on the discs with the apocryphal works. Right-on, but still gutsy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 07:06:32 AM
I can't help you, either, because I don't think it _is_ a set that one could say "uniformly positive" things about. (I don't know a complete set, yet, about which one could, though.) That said, I think it's certainly not a set that will prove unsatisfactory. (In some excitement, I put it on my "Best of 2008 List for WETA, actually... in case it sounds like I don't actually like it.)
I would add to that: Weinberger is not the set to _excite_ you. It doesn't "impress" right out of the stalls. But it did sway me with its seriousness, scrupulous playing and registration... and the very consistently high quality. I've just received Marie-Claire Alain II and am just about through the Rogg II set (neither of them complete, compared to Weinberger), which were my two most recent Bach Organ Works sets...

I may have something to say about Weinberger in comparison that you might be able to relate to, better. One thing I absolutely love--although it has nothing to do with the quality of the set, per se--is that they put the "famous" Toccata & Fugue where it belongs, namely on the discs with the apocryphal works. Right-on, but still gutsy.

If I remember correctly, this set, as released by CPO, has 22 CD's.  The few extra works cannot take up that many extra discs.  I think most sets have anywhere from 10 to 14 CD's.  Is it due to the specific placements of the works in this set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 28, 2009, 08:06:24 AM
If I remember correctly, this set, as released by CPO, has 22 CD's.  The few extra works cannot take up that many extra discs.  I think most sets have anywhere from 10 to 14 CD's.  Is it due to the specific placements of the works in this set?

Any even remotely complete set can't fit on less than 15 discs... and from then it depends on how you count.
Weinberger includes all arrangements, all alternative versions, and all spurious/apocryphal works.

BWV 131a, 525-596, 599-751, 754-758, 762, 765-770, 790, 802-805, 957, 1027a, 1079/5, 1080, 1085, 1090-1121, 1128 (incl. resp. alternative versions)
Apoc.: BWV 42, 49, 50, 52, 55, 58, 59, 62a, 63, 64, 67, 68, 77, 78, 90
Deest: 20 works w/o BWV.
22 CDs, 21 different organs.

Most of the CDs with over 70 minutes of music, totaling 24 hours and 40 minutes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 08:33:10 AM
Any even remotely complete set can't fit on less than 15 discs... and from then it depends on how you count.
Weinberger includes all arrangements, all alternative versions, and all spurious/apocryphal works.

BWV 131a, 525-596, 599-751, 754-758, 762, 765-770, 790, 802-805, 957, 1027a, 1079/5, 1080, 1085, 1090-1121, 1128 (incl. resp. alternative versions)
Apoc.: BWV 42, 49, 50, 52, 55, 58, 59, 62a, 63, 64, 67, 68, 77, 78, 90
Deest: 20 works w/o BWV.
22 CDs, 21 different organs.

Most of the CDs with over 70 minutes of music, totaling 24 hours and 40 minutes.

I have 2 sets of Bach Organ Works by Helmut Walcha, one on Document and the other on Archive.  The Document set has 10 CD's (probably incomplete) but every disc is 70+ min.  The DG Archive set has 12 CD's.  The Werner Jacob's set on EMI has 16 CD's while the Peter Hurford's 5 volumes total 15 CD's.  I also have the complete organ works by Hans Fagius in that mammoth 155-CD set released by Brilliant, 5-6 singles each by Marie-Claire Alain, Simon Preston, Wolfgang Rubsam and the 18-LP set on EMI by Lionel Rogg.  I would love to have a full set by Rogg released on EMI.  The full sets by Weinberger and Alain's third recording certainly can be included in my collection down the road ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 28, 2009, 01:28:09 PM
I can get the Weinberger's set at a great price but do not want to end up having a box set that ultimately may prove unsatisfactory.  I have yet to find any uniformly positive opinions of him ...

Forget about the "uniform" business.  There isn't a performer on the planet who could be uniformly excellent throughout a 22 disc cycle.  If you must have complete sets, Weinberger is about as good as it gets for a modern box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on February 28, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
Here is my Lionel Rogg's Complete Bach Organ Works on 18-LP EMI set in pristine condition - played only once.

 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 01, 2009, 01:59:39 AM
Here is my Lionel Rogg's Complete Bach Organ Works on 18-LP EMI set in pristine condition - played only once.

Rogg didn't impress me either.  :)

For completes I'm considering the new Koopman and Weinberger.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 01, 2009, 02:22:46 PM
Rogg didn't impress me either.  :)

For completes I'm considering the new Koopman and Weinberger.

Q

How about the GREAT Gustav Leonhardt?  Didn't he record the Complete Bach Organ Works once?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 01, 2009, 02:24:37 PM
How about the GREAT Gustav Leonhardt?  Didn't he record the Complete Bach Organ Works once?

NEVER.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 01, 2009, 02:51:32 PM
How about the GREAT Gustav Leonhardt?  Didn't he record the Complete Bach Organ Works once?

He has recorded what amounts to 3 - 4 CDs of organ music by Bach. Some of this music is without pedal part.

Released by Seon and DHM.

I think the reason why he did not record more Bach is, that his pedal technique does not match his manual technique. Altogether he has not recorded much organ music with difficult pedal parts.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 08:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2009, 08:19:07 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?



I have a few recordings by Piet Kee but they are for works of Buxtehude and Sweelinck.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 10:42:38 AM
Absolutely off-topic: Where did you buy your Annie Fischer set, Coop? I want to use your previous research about it  ;).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 10:45:20 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

I've had them quite a few years.  Don't remember much except that I find Kee's Trio Sonata in E minor outstanding.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 02, 2009, 12:43:51 PM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

As you may suppose I own all of them (except the one with the spurious Eight small Preludes and Fuges which also contains the - spurious??? -Toccata BWV 565). Kee is reliable, offers a bit earthboumd and matter-of-fact playing, but with fine great plenum registrations in the free organ works on these marvellous organs in good sound, reminds me actually a bit of van Oortmerssen, - acquired the CDs as much for the sake of the organs in question. Do not regret it, but concerning the interpretation I much prefer e.g. Alain, Weinberger, Rübsam and Heiller.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on March 02, 2009, 12:54:29 PM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

Not exactly, but I heard him live: good, solid and straight forward Bach playing in the best Dutch organ tradition, but not remarkable.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2009, 02:15:34 PM
Absolutely off-topic: Where did you buy your Annie Fischer set, Coop? I want to use your previous research about it  ;).

I bought it from a US-based e-tailer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 02:30:51 PM
As you may suppose I own all of them (except the one with the spurious Eight small Preludes and Fuges which also contains the - spurious??? -Toccata BWV 565).

I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 02, 2009, 02:38:37 PM
I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.

Neither can I, and I am convinced of its authenticity.

Note my question marks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 02, 2009, 02:44:57 PM
It is a foregone conclusion that JS Bach was the composer of bwv 565.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 02, 2009, 02:47:06 PM
Quote
It is a foregone conclusion that JS Bach was the composer of bwv 565.
  Huh??

Neither can I, and I am convinced of its authenticity.
Note my question marks.


Why don't you listen to Bach's "Italian Concerto" Italian concertos or any of his other works _based_ on the works of other composers... then you might be amenable to the idea.
That's the genius of Bach (in part), that he infused it with something very special virtually just by touching it.

(However, I still refuse to give credence to the--not very scientific or evidence-backed, in any case--hypothesis that the Suites are not actually by Bach but his wife, instead.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 02, 2009, 02:54:34 PM
Why don't you listen to Bach's "Italian Concerto" or any of his other works _based_ on the works of other composers... then you might be amenable to the idea.
That's the genius of Bach (in part), that he infused it with something very special virtually just by touching it.

No need, I know all Bach´s instrumental works better than I know my own pocket, so I do not have to listen to them. When I listen to them, I do this to hear, what great artists make of them.

BTW which other work constituted the basis for Bach´s Comcerto in Italian manner?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:53:00 PM
I bought it from a US-based e-tailer.

It's not too much information  ;D. Thanks, anyway.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 08:39:25 PM
As you may suppose I own all of them

Your collection, Premont, challenges the possibilities of my mind ;D.

Thanks to all: The opinions about Kee seem rather similar.


P.S.: Has anyone attended concerts by some of the great organists commented here? Que listened to Piet Kee and Premont, probably, to Knud Vad. Anyone else?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 03, 2009, 01:53:39 AM
P.S.: Has anyone attended concerts by some of the great organists commented here? Que listened to Piet Kee and Premont, probably, to Knud Vad. Anyone else?

Yes. When I was a student in Copenhagen many years ago,  I attended rather many organ recitals, and many of the greatest visited Copenhagen regularily at that time. So I have heard among others Helmut Walcha, Marie-Claire Alain, Anton Heiller, Walter Kraft and Karl Richter, all of them almost exclusively playing Bach. Walcha´s interpretation was like a carbon copy of his recordings, but he also played  his own arrangement of the six-part Ricercare from Mus.Opf., which he for some strange reason never recorded. Anton Heiller, whom I heard four times and Walter Kraft, whom I heard three times, impressed me the most. Strong, concentrated and expressive interpretations, far surpassing their recordings. Both used to conclude the recital with some improvisation in modern but still strict polyphonic style. Karl Richter was not that impressive, but still better than the recordings he had made for DG a few years earlier, and he just played his usual program (I even own a Swiss live CD by him from another recital containing an almost  identical program) BWV 565, 542, 548 and the Sei Gegrüsset Variations of course. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 04:19:11 AM
I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.

Your imagination is limited. Perhaps BWV 565 was in fact Pachelbel's greatest organ work and copied by J. S. Bach for that reason?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 07:12:55 AM
Your imagination is limited. Perhaps BWV 565 was in fact Pachelbel's greatest organ work and copied by J. S. Bach for that reason?

Are you familiar with Pachelbel's organ works?  I have two cycles of them on Centaur and Dorian, and I'd bet my life that Pachelbel had neither the musical talent nor the disposition to write BWV 565.  So you can take your insult and ridiculous speculation and shove it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 03, 2009, 08:45:51 AM
BWV 565 doesn't sound very "Bach-ish" to my ears, at least in comparison to the other toccata and fugues.  But that doesn't mean I can't believe he wrote it.   The idea that it is Bach's transcription of a virtuoso piece for solo violin, either by Bach or someone else, doesn't seem so far fetched either.  In the end, my only concern is that it is good, and if someone else wrote it, too bad they didn't get credit.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 11:53:31 AM
Are you familiar with Pachelbel's organ works?

Yeah, some of them (Rübsam/Naxos).

I have two cycles of them on Centaur and Dorian, and I'd bet my life that Pachelbel had neither the musical talent nor the disposition to write BWV 565.  So you can take your insult and ridiculous speculation and shove it.

Don't bet your life for anything. As I said, BWV 565 would be one of Pachelbel's brightest moments. I am not suggesting that BWV 565 is by Pachelbel, I just can imagine such things. If it insults you I am sorry for your thin skin.  ::)

BWV 565 doesn't sound very "Bach-ish" to my ears, at least in comparison to the other toccata and fugues.

My thoughts exactly. It's not that complex in it's textures. Perhaps that's why it's so popular? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 03, 2009, 12:17:14 PM
Neither do I hear any Pachelbel at all in BWV 565. Note that we have not got any "proof" that the work was not written by Bach, on the contrary we have the atribution to Bach in the beautiful Rinck manuscript. If the work is written by Bach, it must be a work of his youth. Mind you that he explored the Toccata form eagerly in his youth (e.g. the Toccate manualiter BWV 910-916 and the related Fantasie a-minor BWV 922). All in all I tend to consider BWV 565 an authentic work by Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on March 03, 2009, 12:23:42 PM
Your imagination is limited.

Making more friends, Poju?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 03, 2009, 12:52:35 PM
Neither do I hear any Pachelbel at all in BWV 565. Note that we have not got any "proof" that the work was not written by Bach, on the contrary we have the atribution to Bach in the beautiful Rinck manuscript. If the work is written by Bach, it must be a work of his youth. Mind you that he explored the Toccata form eagerly in his youth (e.g. the Toccate manualiter BWV 910-916 and the related Fantasie a-minor BWV 922). All in all I tend to consider BWV 565 an authentic work by Bach.

I would agree with that.  The Toccate BWV910-6 are the most similar within Bach's established works.  If not strictly by Bach, I could imagine it was derived, transcribed, or adapted from something by Buxtehude. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 03, 2009, 01:01:42 PM
Neither do I hear any Pachelbel at all in BWV 565.

Isn't the pedal work rather more Pachelbelish than Bachish, though? (And haven't I heard Koopman say something to that effect?)
But yes, we do indeed not have proof one way or the other. Although after reading R.D Claus' book on it, I should think that it's 49-51 on the side of not being original Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 03, 2009, 01:22:02 PM
Isn't the pedal work rather more Pachelbelish than Bachish, though? (And haven't I heard Koopman say something to that effect?)
But yes, we do indeed not have proof one way or the other. Although after reading R.D Claus' book on it, I should think that it's 49-51 on the side of not being original Bach.

In the Toccata the pedal hasn´t but supporting function. This is a common occurrence in German baroque organ music and may indicate anyone, even the young Bach. In the Fugue I don´t hear Pachelbel in the use of the pedal, rather Buxtehude or someone influenced by him, and this might well indicate the young Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 03, 2009, 01:28:05 PM
In the Toccata the pedal hasn´t but supporting function. This is a common occurrence in German baroque organ music and may indicate anyone, even the young Bach. In the Fugue I don´t hear Pachelbel in the use of the pedal, rather Buxtehude or someone influenced by him, and this might well indicate the young Bach.

I'm sorry... I meant Buxtehude.  Well, that's at least who Koopman talks about.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 03, 2009, 01:31:26 PM
I'm sorry... I meant Buxtehude.  Well, that's at least who Koopman talks about.

I agree about that, but I do not find, that this rules out the young Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on March 03, 2009, 01:33:11 PM
Even Bach was young once . . . .
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 01:40:14 PM
Yeah, some of them (Rübsam/Naxos).

Since you now indicate that you have little exposure to Pachelbel's organ works, I suggest you stick to the one composer you do know something about.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 01:44:09 PM
In the Toccata the pedal hasn´t but supporting function. This is a common occurrence in German baroque organ music and may indicate anyone, even the young Bach. In the Fugue I don´t hear Pachelbel in the use of the pedal, rather Buxtehude or someone influenced by him, and this might well indicate the young Bach.

In addition, after hearing every Pachelbel organ work, I'm very confident that none of them has the type of emotional content in BWV 565. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 03, 2009, 01:45:55 PM
Since you now indicate that you have little exposure to Pachelbel's organ works, I suggest you stick to the one composer you do know something about.


Highly seconded.
I suppose you mean Elgar. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 03, 2009, 03:12:48 PM
I had been out of house all the day.

Now, I was hoping to read some nice memories about great recitals. But the thread is on fire, guys.

My vote about the BWV 565:

The young Bach searching for a job or trying to strike some people with theatrical effects. Bach is there, but in a youthful and showy sense.   

Just today I bought the set by Karl Richter (3 CDs) recommended by Jens and the first track brought to my ears –what else?-, the Dracula Toccata. Pure Bach, I swear  0:).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 08:58:11 PM
Highly seconded.
I suppose you mean Elgar. ;)

Actually, I was thinking of the dynamic Dittersdorf. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 01:41:43 AM
This is very unpleasant forum. Most probably BWV 565 is by Bach. I just told you guys I could believe if someone wise told me it is by Pachelbel or Buxtehude or even Bruhns. Why on earth is the authenticy in doubt if the work is so clearly Bach?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 04, 2009, 07:02:28 AM
This is very unpleasant forum.

Your imagination is limited.

Part of your problem may be your way of addressing yourself.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 04, 2009, 07:08:30 AM
Actually, I was thinking of the dynamic Dittersdorf. ;D

One more Dittersdorf?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 08:04:56 AM
One more Dittersdorf?

Let's hope there's only one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 12:05:36 PM
Part of your problem may be your way of addressing yourself.

Well, if he says he can't imagine BWV 565 being composed by someone else than Bach then calling his imagination limited is about stating a fact rather than an insult. At least I didn't mean to insult anyone.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 04, 2009, 12:10:08 PM
Let's hope there's only one.

Why? Is someone forcing you to listen to Dittersdorf? You can ignore all the Dittersdorfs there ever was, can't you?

I really don't get the anti-Dittersdorf vibe around here. He's a very fine composer and I enjoy his music a lot.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 01:08:12 PM
Why? Is someone forcing you to listen to Dittersdorf? You can ignore all the Dittersdorfs there ever was, can't you?


Wouldn't you agree that one Dittersdorf is enough?  Right after this posting, I'm going to check the phone book to make sure there aren't any of them right here in Albuquerque.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Brewski on March 04, 2009, 01:10:54 PM
Wouldn't you agree that one Dittersdorf is enough?  Right after this posting, I'm going to check the phone book to make sure there aren't any of them right here in Albuquerque.

 ;D  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 04, 2009, 01:15:38 PM
This is very unpleasant forum.

I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing at your description of our esteemed board.  
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 06:36:34 PM
This is very unpleasant forum. Most probably BWV 565 is by Bach. I just told you guys I could believe if someone wise told me it is by Pachelbel or Buxtehude or even Bruhns. Why on earth is the authenticy in doubt if the work is so clearly Bach?

One of my sisters told me while she was an exchange student to China a number of years ago, she met an Italian who was a fellow exchange student and his objective of being there was to complete a research paper that "proved" that Marco Polo NEVER went to China ... 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 07:01:17 PM
Well, that Italian lost his opportunity:

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 07:03:45 PM
Well, that Italian lost his opportunity:



He could have published something in Italian ONLY ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 07:18:26 PM
It's always possible, Coop  ;D.

Actually, all is possible. But possible don't mean probable  8).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 07:28:57 PM
He could have published something in Italian ONLY ...    ;D

This brings us back to the point whether JS Bach was the composer of bwv 565 ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 07:48:56 PM
I'm afraid that's right, Coop.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 04, 2009, 08:12:50 PM
I'm afraid that's right, Coop.

Perhaps there is as high a probability that JS Bach did not compose bwv 565 as Marco polo had never visited China ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2009, 09:04:00 PM
I don’t think so because to prove a fake attribution requires proofs.

The arguments against the authenticity of BWV 565 are merely stylistic; but those reasons are refused by important scholars. For instance, Christoph Wolff claims its authenticity in his book Johann Sebastian Bach. The Learned Musician, and he is probably the most important scholar on Bach at the moment.     
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 02:40:56 AM
I don’t think so because to prove a fake attribution requires proofs.

The arguments against the authenticity of BWV 565 are merely stylistic; but those reasons are refused by important scholars. For instance, Christoph Wolff claims its authenticity in his book Johann Sebastian Bach. The Learned Musician, and he is probably the most important scholar on Bach at the moment.     

I reckon he's also the same scholar who won't allow unrestricted access to the Bach archive to scholars who don't agree with him? When it comes to the OVPP debate, I'd like to believe that the Wolff/Koopman group is right, not the Rifkinites. But that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) should be completely uncritical of Wolff's doing.

In any case, argumentum ad verecundiam ("Ipse dixit") shouldn't convince anyone because it's a fallacy and itself insufficient to sway any thinking person. (Now if we read "The Learned Musician", we might be convinced, of course.)

In any case, I think there is enough of a hypothesis by respectable scholars our there to raise the question as to BWV565's authenticity. Whether we believe it is by Bach or not is ultimately a matter of our faith/flexibility/conviction. Most of us have always associated it strongly with Bach and could probably not have their minds changed if we found the original manuscript by Albertus Cornelius Kreuzbeiniger himself. Fair enough: I could probably not be convinced that the Cello Suites are not by the master himself, even if we found a letter of JS congratulating Magdalena on such a fine composition. (He would probably have whispered it into her ear, while making child No.21 -- so no such letter will likely appear.)

P.S. Most (probably 98% or more) of attributions are based solely on stylistic grounds, not "proof". I don't know where you get that "proof" thing from. That is largely impossible with paintings or compositions or other artistic works from that period. It's all about stylistic 'evidence'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2009, 07:49:29 AM
I reckon he's also the same scholar who won't allow unrestricted access to the Bach archive to scholars who don't agree with him?


Well, that's an argumentum ad hominem, Mr. Laurson.

In any case, argumentum ad verecundiam ("Ipse dixit") shouldn't convince anyone because it's a fallacy and itself insufficient to sway any thinking person. (Now if we read "The Learned Musician", we might be convinced, of course.)

You have missed the most important part of the discussion. We were talking about possibilities v/s probabilities. I admit a possibility of fake attribution, but one or several stylistic studies aren't enough (or conclusive) , when –on the other hand- tradition, documents and many respectable scholars (considering their own analyses), state the authenticity of the work. When authenticity is a problem, the authority on the subject is an essential criterion. Everyday, as you know, expert reports are accepted o rejected on the basis of the authority on the subject and that isn't an argumentum ad verecundiam. It's only a practical (and wise) solution when there are different opinions.

P.S. Most (probably 98% or more) of attributions are based solely on stylistic grounds, not "proof". I don't know where you get that "proof" thing from. That is largely impossible with paintings or compositions or other artistic works from that period. It's all about stylistic 'evidence'.

That's wrong because in the 98% of the cases, the attributions aren't dubious or are clearly documented.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: 71 dB on March 05, 2009, 07:55:02 AM
Wouldn't you agree that one Dittersdorf is enough?

No. Seven Dittersdorfs would be nice, one for each day of the week!  0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 05, 2009, 08:04:32 AM

Well, that's an argumentum ad hominem, Mr. Laurson.

Well, almost. This one actually categorizes as a 'snide aside'.

Quote
That's wrong because in the 98% of the cases, the attributions aren't dubious or are clearly documented.

Well, if they're clearly documented, then the problem of authenticity (or the 'original attribution') doesn't arise in the first place. Where the problem does arise, such attribution is absent. Certainly we were talking about that subset where questions of authenticity and attribution must be considered. And the vast majority of those are not questioned/re-attributed based on new found hard evidence to the contrary but usually based on stylistic analysis or the like. (And yes, I concede that the argument of a knowledgeable Bach scholar does have great weight here, but that's ultimately reliant on the quality of his argument, not the respect he commands from his peers.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 05, 2009, 10:05:49 AM
Well, if they're clearly documented, then the problem of authenticity (or the 'original attribution') doesn't arise in the first place. Where the problem does arise, such attribution is absent. Certainly we were talking about that subset where questions of authenticity and attribution must be considered. And the vast majority of those are not questioned/re-attributed based on new found hard evidence to the contrary but usually based on stylistic analysis or the like. (And yes, I concede that the argument of a knowledgeable Bach scholar does have great weight here, but that's ultimately reliant on the quality of his argument, not the respect he commands from his peers.)

I guess musicologists have to have something to occupy themselves, but deciding attribution based on stylistic analysis seems dicey.  People are unpredictable, afterall.  At least James is honest, "I don't like it, therefore it is not by Bach."  Straightforward reasoning which I suspect is the subtext of many a musicologist's analysis.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: rubio on March 05, 2009, 10:33:59 AM
I find this historical set by Walcha an excellent set to own.  I am a little half way through the set.  For under $20, this was heck of a bargain and the SQ is quite good too ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516sJ6gYtzL._SS400_.jpg)

My only Bach Organ set is the stereo Walcha (which I really like), and I wonder if i should go for the above set as well. It's cheap, but maybe I'm better off going for another performer? And I wonder if the sound quality is markedly inferior to the DG Original Masters incarnation?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 05, 2009, 01:55:39 PM
My only Bach Organ set is the stereo Walcha (which I really like), and I wonder if i should go for the above set as well. It's cheap, but maybe I'm better off going for another performer? And I wonder if the sound quality is markedly inferior to the DG Original Masters incarnation?

If you only have one why get a second set by the same artist?  Walcha is good, but a bit stodgy and didn't change much over the years.  If you are on a budget, better to pick up a few disks that have your favorite pieces by contrasting artists.  A few installments of the Weinberger set would be a significant contrast to Walcha, for example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 05, 2009, 04:00:10 PM
If you only have one why get a second set by the same artist?  Walcha is good, but a bit stodgy and didn't change much over the years.  If you are on a budget, better to pick up a few disks that have your favorite pieces by contrasting artists.  A few installments of the Weinberger set would be a significant contrast to Walcha, for example.


I'm with you.  I learned my lesson a few years ago with Tureck's various recordings of the Goldberg Variations.  I had her version on the Philips Great Pianists of the Century series and her more recent DG account; loved both of them.  So I acquired another two versions on VAI Audio.  That was a waste of money and time, because there was nothing of interest in either of the two additional versions. 

If I owned a complete Bach/Walcha set (and I don't), I'd never get another one.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 05, 2009, 07:29:13 PM
If you only have one why get a second set by the same artist? 

I have every set of Beethoven Symphonies ever recorded by Karajan - from the first set with Philharmonia Orchestra and every set on DG plus the 1963 SACD set.  I see nothing wrong with this collection style ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 05, 2009, 07:29:56 PM
Just ordered this yesterday.  Should be fun to watch ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FcgHXc4TL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 06, 2009, 09:22:16 AM
I have every set of Beethoven Symphonies ever recorded by Karajan - from the first set with Philharmonia Orchestra and every set on DG plus the 1963 SACD set.  I see nothing wrong with this collection style ...

As long as you have money to burn.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 06, 2009, 11:51:52 AM
I have every set of Beethoven Symphonies ever recorded by Karajan - from the first set with Philharmonia Orchestra and every set on DG plus the 1963 SACD set.  I see nothing wrong with this collection style ...

I'm not going to embarrass myself by telling you your collecting style is wrong if it pleases you.   I think HvK's 77 cycle is probably my favorite, I have his '63, which is also good but which adds little.  I had one disc from the digital cycle (I got it before the '77 cycle was released on CD) which I found unsatisfactory.  I haven't heard the Philharmonia set.  But there is a LOT more to Beethoven than Karajan.  Given limited funds and/or space a diversity of artists is more enriching (for me).

On the other hand, there are more significant differences between performances in Karajan's Brahms symphonies, although in no case is Karajan's recording my favorite of a Brahms symphony (except perhaps the '64 Symphony #4).


 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 06, 2009, 06:43:20 PM
I'm not going to embarrass myself by telling you your collecting style is wrong if it pleases you.   I think HvK's 77 cycle is probably my favorite, I have his '63, which is also good but which adds little.  I had one disc from the digital cycle (I got it before the '77 cycle was released on CD) which I found unsatisfactory.  I haven't heard the Philharmonia set.  But there is a LOT more to Beethoven than Karajan.  Given limited funds and/or space a diversity of artists is more enriching (for me).


I have 16 Beethoven cycles, which includes Bernstein with the VPO, Christopher Hogwood and the AAM, Toscanini and the NBC Symphony, Kurt Masur and the Gewandhaus Orchestra and quite a few others.  The last cycle I bought was the Harnoncourt and the European Chamber Orchestra, which is still in cellophane.  I think I will probably add the cycles by Colin Davis, John Eliot Gardiner and Charles Mackerras to my collection later this year.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: nut-job on March 07, 2009, 07:06:19 AM
I have 16 Beethoven cycles, which includes Bernstein with the VPO, Christopher Hogwood and the AAM, Toscanini and the NBC Symphony, Kurt Masur and the Gewandhaus Orchestra and quite a few others.  The last cycle I bought was the Harnoncourt and the European Chamber Orchestra, which is still in cellophane.  I think I will probably add the cycles by Colin Davis, John Eliot Gardiner and Charles Mackerras to my collection later this year.

I don't know how someone would have time to listen to that much Beethoven.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 07, 2009, 07:20:07 AM
I don't know how someone would have time to listen to that much Beethoven.


FK also has at least 16 Beethoven cycles.  Perhaps he will have a good answer.  My answer is I can listen to these cycles during my retirement years.  So far, I have listened to these cycles only once (i.e. when I bought them) ...   

I will soon have 7 Complete Bach Organ Works.  I think the same argument  will also apply there ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 07, 2009, 10:16:49 AM
I don't know how someone would have time to listen to that much Beethoven.


And even if I had the time, why the Colin Davis cycle?  ???   ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 07, 2009, 10:19:48 AM
And even if I had the time, why the Colin Davis cycle?  ???   ;)

But why not?  FK thinks it is a decent set and I already have many Colin Davis' recordings ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 11:02:35 AM
This set looks quite good:

Johann Sebastian Bach
Orgelwerke auf Silbermann-Orgeln
Organ Works

Berlin Classics, ADD, 1961-1972
15 CDs

Performers:
Arthur Eger Orgel
Christoph Albrecht Orgel
Erich Piasetzki Orgel
Günter Metz Orgel
Hannes Kästner Orgel
Hans Otto Orgel
Herbert Collum Orgel
Johannes Schäfer Orgel
Johannes-Ernst Köhler Orgel
Robert Köbler Orgel

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 07, 2009, 11:09:34 AM
But why not?  FK thinks it is a decent set and I already have many Colin Davis' recordings ...

If you make "Why not" your acquisition standard for recordings, then indeed, "why not".

This set looks quite good:

Old fashioned, but all the single issues I have from that set I really like... and the occ. distortions are not too bad.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 07, 2009, 11:15:57 AM
Old fashioned, but all the single issues I have from that set I really like... and the occ. distortions are not too bad.

Please elucidate, what exactly do you mean by old-fashioned?  Are you referring to the sound quality, recording technology or the performance style?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 11:32:36 AM
Please elucidate, what exactly do you mean by old-fashioned?  Are you referring to the sound quality, recording technology or the performance style?

You can get some personal idea here (I don't agree too much with that description, but in fact they are old recordings):

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Orgelwerke-auf-Silbermann-Orgeln/hnum/8530011

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 12:20:17 PM
This set looks quite good:

Johann Sebastian Bach
Orgelwerke auf Silbermann-Orgeln
Organ Works

Berlin Classics, ADD, 1961-1972
15 CDs


Oldfashioned is exactly the word I would use to describe the performing style. Rather legato touch, changing registrations et.c. in the way Bach´s organ works also was played in Western Germany during the 1950es-1960es by e.g. Michael Schneider, Heinz Wunderlich and also Karl Richter. The SQ is generally good, and the organs very charming. I wrote about the set earlier in this thread, se reply 11.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 12:27:13 PM
P.S. Most (probably 98% or more) of attributions are based solely on stylistic grounds, not "proof".

Would you mind to explain, what you mean when you use the word "attribution". Do you mean any work which´s autenticity is not 100% certain?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 12:30:36 PM
the sound quality of that set is crap, avoid at all costs.

It is rather good for its age BTW. Should we reject all recordings by Cortot, Schnabel, Furtwangler and the like for the same reason??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 12:34:47 PM
If you only have one why get a second set by the same artist?  Walcha is good, but a bit stodgy and didn't change much over the years.  If you are on a budget, better to pick up a few disks that have your favorite pieces by contrasting artists.  A few installments of the Weinberger set would be a significant contrast to Walcha, for example.

Agreed. Only specially interested listeners need to own more than one Walcha set. For the general listener a contrasting set would be preferable, and the Weinberger set would be a splendid contrast.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 12:36:49 PM
If I owned a complete Bach/Walcha set (and I don't), I'd never get another one.

What if he had recorded the Goldberg variations twice or maybe even three times??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 12:44:59 PM
Oldfashioned is exactly the word I would use to describe the performing style. Rather legato touch, changing registrations et.c. in the way Bach´s organ works also was played in Western Germany during the 1950es-1960es by e.g. Michael Schneider, Heinz Wunderlich and also Karl Richter. The SQ is generally good, and the organs very charming. I wrote about the set earlier in this thread, se reply 11.

Hi, Premont.

Your opinion is now a little bit more categorical than in the past. Then you described the playing like “a bit old-fashioned”, but adding that the “artistic level is variable, but most often very good and never less than acceptable. Recorded sound is better than could be anticipated”. 

Anyway, I just have heard some little examples on the web.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on March 07, 2009, 12:52:45 PM
But there is a LOT more to Beethoven than Karajan.

Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 12:58:31 PM
Hi, Premont.

Your opinion is now a little bit more categorical than in the past. Then you described the playing like “a bit old-fashioned”, but adding that the “artistic level is variable, but most often very good and never less than acceptable. Recorded sound is better than could be anticipated”. 

Anyway, I just have heard some little examples on the web.


Well, my opinion is actually unchanged. Writing "a bit" oldfashioned earlier is my usual (national) way of understating things.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 12:59:37 PM
Quoted for truth.

 ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 07, 2009, 01:33:10 PM
Well, my opinion is actually unchanged. Writing "a bit" oldfashioned earlier is my usual (national) way of understating things.

Sure, but I did read your first post almost like a (strong) recommendation and this isn't so clear in the latter. Probably, just subtle nuances of meaning ;D. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 01:50:31 PM
Sure, but I did read your first post almost like a (strong) recommendation and this isn't so clear in the latter. Probably, just subtle nuances of meaning ;D. 

A qualified recommendation all the same. The Gottfried Silbermann organs are indeed interesting, and the playing generally reliable, sometimes even very good, but somewhat (maybe the best word) oldfashioned. Not a set for the fanatic HIP-ster, but neither are Walcha, Rogg, Richter and a lot of others.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: rubio on March 07, 2009, 03:26:27 PM
It is rather good for its age BTW. Should we reject all recordings by Cortot, Schnabel, Furtwangler and the like for the same reason??

I just wonder if the Documents set is much inferior to the Original Masters incarnation, and if it's sufficiently different performance-wise to the Walcha stereo set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 07, 2009, 04:21:48 PM
I just wonder if the Documents set is much inferior to the Original Masters incarnation, and if it's sufficiently different performance-wise to the Walcha stereo set?

If you are a Walcha maniac like me, you will want both the mono and the stereo integral. But if you are not, I do not know.

The source material for the Documents set were probably original Archiv LPs, whereas the source material for the DG Originals set was the original tapes. And the DG set is better sounding, but not that much - IMO - that you are not well served by the Documents set, not the least regarding the cost. As I have written elsewhere the Doument set has got a tad of added ambience, (George, you know whom, does not -in principle - like it, but he has not heard the Document set) and it is done tastefully. Ultimately I would prefer to be without it, but on the other hand I do not think it detracts critically from the sound.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 07, 2009, 11:10:08 PM
What if he had recorded the Goldberg variations twice or maybe even three times??

No problem.  One or two discs for the Goldbergs is far different than a complete set of Bach's organ works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 12:19:03 AM
No problem.  One or two discs for the Goldbergs is far different than a complete set of Bach's organ works.

We made the comparison with the WTC above. 4 or 5 CDs pr set.
And your 150++ sets of Goldberg variations equal at least about 35 sets of the WTC
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 10:42:47 AM
that is not what I am saying..

that particular issue is horrid, the sound is dreadful & unacceptable. might as well spend the extra money on something that is so much better, especially with this music.

Disagree. This is a milestone recording both as to interpretation as to recorded sound for its age. If we should reject this recording because of bad sound, we should also reject all recordings made at least before 1950 for the same reason. But if one owns Walchas stereo set, parts of which on the other hand are badly recorded regarding the years of the recordings, one may not need the mono set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 12:24:41 PM
no no no that cheaply priced issue of the earlier mono is downright unacceptable. avoid.

It is better than its reputation. How much of it have you heard?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 01:03:31 PM
I just wonder if the Documents set is much inferior to the Original Masters incarnation, and if it's sufficiently different performance-wise to the Walcha stereo set?

I found the Documents set quite enjoyable.  While the sound may not be first rate, it is clear and Walcha articulated the organ works of Bach well IMO.  I also have the Walcha's stereo set on Archive, which I have not played yet.  I also plan on getting the Weinberger's 22-CD set just to get some works that have been left out of the Walcha's sets.  At any rate, I still consider Walcha the best among the organists.  We are talking about someone who was blind most of his adult life when we examine his towering achievement on the organ ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 02:51:43 PM
I found the Documents set quite enjoyable.  While the sound may not be first rate, it is clear and Walcha articulated the organ works of Bach well IMO.  I also have the Walcha's stereo set on Archive, which I have not played yet.  I also plan on getting the Weinberger's 22-CD set just to get some works that have been left out of the Walcha's sets.  At any rate, I still consider Walcha the best among the organists.  We are talking about someone who was blind most of his adult life when we examine his towering achievement on the organ ...

This is precisely what I think too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 02:52:20 PM
i wouldn't have said anything if i hadn't heard much of it.
But you did not answer how much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 04:12:56 PM
check out his pupil the blind german organist Holm Vogel...his recordings of the Trio Sonatas are the best I've ever heard and I've heard lots. Perfection. I also love his recording of ClavierUbung iii which is also very great.

If anyone reads up the bio on Helmut Walcha, he has to be impressed with what this man has achieved.  The fact that Walcha was blind for most of his adult life, yet he is ranked right up there with the best organists of the 20th century.  How did he do it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Walcha
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 08, 2009, 04:13:49 PM
check out his pupil the blind german organist Holm Vogel...his recordings of the Trio Sonatas are the best I've ever heard and I've heard lots. Perfection. I also love his recording of ClavierUbung iii which is also very great.

Even better than Marie-Claire Alain?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 04:25:02 PM
We made the comparison with the WTC above. 4 or 5 CDs pr set.
And your 150++ sets of Goldberg variations equal at least about 35 sets of the WTC

Is there a point you're making here?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 04:30:22 PM
Disagree. This is a milestone recording both as to interpretation as to recorded sound for its age. If we should reject this recording because of bad sound, we should also reject all recordings made at least before 1950 for the same reason. But if one owns Walchas stereo set, parts of which on the other hand are badly recorded regarding the years of the recordings, one may not need the mono set.

How does the sound on this set compare to the Albert Schweitzer/Bach/Pearl recordings?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 04:49:12 PM
Is there a point you're making here?

Yes, your preferences are not a matter of available space, but of preferences.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 08, 2009, 04:54:03 PM
How does the sound on this set compare to the Albert Schweitzer/Bach/Pearl recordings?

Have not heard the Schweitzer/Pearl releases, only the EMI and Document releases, and the Schweitzer sound on these are rather more dated. But I can not say that Schweitzer does much for me, and I do not acquire expensive recordings for historical reasons exclusively.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on March 08, 2009, 04:59:55 PM
how much? enough to rid of it without regrets.

Your lack of regret is no signifier in the least for anyone else.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 08:40:08 PM
Yes, your preferences are not a matter of available space, but of preferences.

Right - available space has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 08, 2009, 08:41:44 PM
Have not heard the Schweitzer/Pearl releases, only the EMI and Document releases, and the Schweitzer sound on these are rather more dated. But I can not say that Schweitzer does much for me, and I do not acquire expensive recordings for historical reasons exclusively.

I don't have any problem with Schweitzer's sound, so Walcha should be easy.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 09, 2009, 01:10:35 AM
they say the blind have a heightened sense of hearing. helps. he's not the only great blind musician though there have been others. for instance, check out Holm Vogel's recordings if you get the chance, you will not be disappointed, great performance (& sound). trust me.

I can agree with this. Vogels playing has got many of the Walcha qualities, first and foremost exquisite transparency of part playing, and in a more informed presentation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 09, 2009, 05:05:49 PM
Yes.

Goggling on Holm Vogel but I really do not find many interesting entries about him on the first page??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 22, 2009, 01:07:34 PM
Bach is my favourite composer ....
.... and I only had around 'two handful' of organ discs in da house (Walcha, MC Alain, Power Biggs, Rogg, Rübsam, Preston, Leonhardt & Koopman), whilst Bach is such an important organ composer.
Oops: I almost forgot the 'complete' Fagius!

Still: I rarely listened to them.
Shame on me!

So, after (re)discovering the charm and beauty of the harpsichord during the last two years, I decided to take a closer hearing at that other beautiful keyboard instrument: the organ!

Right now I'm listening to Olivier Vernet, playing a.o. the Trio Sonata in G (BWV 530) and the variations on "O Gott, du frommer Gott" (BWV 767) on the organ of l'Église Sainte-Croix de Montélimar.
I think he is a good Bach interpreter, and I like his choice of registrations. But I do not have a lot of organ-listening experience.
What do other members think of Vernet?

(Post scriptum: also in da house, library CD-stuff of the Dutch organ players Piet Wiersma, Bram Beekman and Wim van Beek, and also of Chorzempa, and I had a great weekend, sitting outside da house in the sun with two large headphones on my big ears. :D)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 22, 2009, 01:22:45 PM
Finally got around to the Passacaglia of Marie-Claire Alain (cycle II) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000RZOR2K/nectarandambrUK-21). QUITE to my liking, at last...
I had gotten impatient after Andre Isoir (organist of my favorite "Art of the Fugue") (Calliope) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006G9H8O/nectarandambrUK-21), Martin Sander (Audite) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000K2NZ/nectarandambr-20), and Lionel Rogg (Harmonia Mundi) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/nectarandambr-20) were not entirely convincing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 22, 2009, 01:35:12 PM
Finally got around to the Passacaglia of Marie-Claire Alain (cycle II) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000RZOR2K/nectarandambrUK-21). QUITE to my liking, at last...
I had gotten impatient after Andre Isoir (Calliope) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006G9H8O/nectarandambrUK-21), Martin Sander (Audite) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000K2NZ/nectarandambr-20), and (Harmonia Mundi) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/nectarandambr-20) were not entirely convincing.
 

Marie-Claire Alain is tried and true while I have never heard of the other two ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 22, 2009, 01:37:03 PM

Right now I'm listening to Olivier Vernet, playing a.o. the Trio Sonata in G (BWV 530) and the variations on "O Gott, du frommer Gott" (BWV 767) on the organ of l'Église Sainte-Croix de Montélimar.
I think he is a good Bach interpreter, and I like his choice of registrations. But I do not have a lot of organ-listening experience.
What do other members think of Vernet?

In my opinion Vernet combines informed scholarship and passionate approach in an individual and most often convincing synthesis marked by energy and brilliance. I do not think I could do with his integral as the only one, but I rate him very highly.

(Post scriptum: also in da house, library CD-stuff of the Dutch organ players Piet Wiersma, Bram Beekman and Wim van Beek, and also of Chorzempa, and I had a great weekend, sitting outside da house in the sun with two large headphones on my big ears. :D)

Bram Beekman´s integral is OOP - unfortunately, as his is probably the only integral I do not know at all. Chorzempa is one of the HIP pioneers but he has not recorded much.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 22, 2009, 01:46:51 PM
Finally got around to the Passacaglia of Marie-Claire Alain (cycle II) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000RZOR2K/nectarandambrUK-21). QUITE to my liking, at last...
I had gotten impatient after Andre Isoir (organist of my favorite "Art of the Fugue") (Calliope) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006G9H8O/nectarandambrUK-21), Martin Sander (Audite) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000K2NZ/nectarandambr-20), and Lionel Rogg (Harmonia Mundi) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000027OAA/nectarandambr-20) were not entirely convincing.

I am still considering my Bach organ integral recommendations. Not an easy task with that many.

But Marie-Claire Alain is to me mandatory, and the second cycle preferable.

Martin Sander´s only CD from Nidaros is passionate and rhethorical, his style seem to be inspired by the first Rübsam integral (Philips 1977) the style pulled a tad further. I must admit that I find him very exciting.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on March 22, 2009, 01:51:18 PM

Martin Sander´s only CD from Nidaros is passionate and rhethorical, his style seem to be inspired by the first Rübsam integral (Philips 1977) the style pulled a tad further. I must admit that I find him very exciting.

Incidentally, the title of this new Audite Cd (recorded on the Wagner Organ in Trondheim) is "Pathos & Happiness/Delight" and I really like his Concerto in d BWV 596 and "Nun komm', der Heiden Heiland" (659-661). But in the Passacaglia, perhaps I'm not looking for passion or excitement but rigor that allows the music to develop its internal, necessary, compelling and compulsive forward drive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 22, 2009, 02:00:24 PM
Incidentally, the title of this new Audite Cd (recorded on the Wagner Organ in Trondheim) is "Pathos & Happiness/Delight" and I really like his Concerto in d BWV 596 and "Nun komm', der Heiden Heiland" (659-661). But in the Passacaglia, perhaps I'm not looking for passion or excitement but rigor that allows the music to develop its internal, necessary, compelling and compulsive forward drive.

Agreed, exactly the Passacaglia is perhaps not the most successful piece on this CD, and a complete integral played in this way might become a bit tiresome in the long run. But still I find him exciting and inventive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 23, 2009, 10:27:38 AM
Right now I'm listening to Olivier Vernet, playing a.o. the Trio Sonata in G (BWV 530) and the variations on "O Gott, du frommer Gott" (BWV 767) on the organ of l'Église Sainte-Croix de Montélimar.
I think he is a good Bach interpreter, and I like his choice of registrations. But I do not have a lot of organ-listening experience.
What do other members think of Vernet?

In my opinion Vernet combines informed scholarship and passionate approach in an individual and most often convincing synthesis marked by energy and brilliance. I do not think I could do with his integral as the only one, but I rate him very highly.

Thanks for sharing my first impressions! :)
I have a copy of this recital on MiniDisc, and I'm considering buying his integral. The complete set is available around € 60,-- here (and there?).

Bram Beekman´s integral is OOP - unfortunately, as his is probably the only integral I do not know at all. Chorzempa is one of the HIP pioneers but he has not recorded much.

I know about Beekman being OOP. A record salesman told me a couple of months ago that the publisher Lindenberg went bankrupt. Which made me realize that I was too late to 'easily' collect his integral. :(
Luckilly there is a good library system here in the Netherlands. Maybe I'll manage to get at least a copy of most of the volumes. But it will be a difficult task nevertheless, because I think that a lot of libraries had to clean up their music storage in the last decade or so. Of course eBay-kind of sites might help a bit while searching.

The last two or three weeks I have listened to a lot of Bach's organ music, with all the separate CD's that I found in my house, and Beekman's 2cd-sampler (also OOP) gives me the impression that his integral should be very good. He's playing on historical Dutch baroque organs. I would describe his playing as a fine combination of joy, spirituality and nobility. And the organs sound really wonderful. It's a real pity that this set is OOP. Hopefully another company is willing to buy the license.

About Chorzempa: this hybrid disc is a reissue of a 1970 quadrophonic Bach/Liszt recording, released by PentaTone. Especially the Bach works profit of a brilliant recording sound (organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, Netherlands). I almost drowned in it! :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 23, 2009, 05:35:43 PM

About Chorzempa: this hybrid disc is a reissue of a 1970 quadrophonic Bach/Liszt recording, released by PentaTone. Especially the Bach works profit of a brilliant recording sound (organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, Netherlands). I almost drowned in it! :D

I have always enjoyed the playing style of Chorzempa.  From LP's to CD's, I have quite a few of his recordings ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 24, 2009, 01:42:27 AM
I am on the other hand not that happy with all Chorzempa´s Bach organ recordings (he changed rather much his style of interpretation during the 1980es-90es) and the one from Breda the least. Almost sticky in conception I think. But I have not listened to it via a headset though.

His most important Bach recordings IMO are the WTC part I & II (Philips) played on a host of different instruments (like the Robert Levin set), a brilliant and well articulated set, and his more than twenty years old recording of the Triosonatas (Philips) on the restored baroque organ in Meppel (as far as I remember), which some may find a bit sticky too, as well as his recording of the Sei Gergrüsset variations and the Schübler Chorales on the Johan Andreas Silbermann in Arlesheim (Philips), which are more middle-of -the-road HIP. These, I think, are well worth seeking out, but they are probably difficult to find to day.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 24, 2009, 12:13:56 PM
[About Chorzempa's Bach playing]
[....] Almost sticky in conception I think. [....]
[....] which some may find a bit sticky too [....]

Sticky: does this (f.i.) mean: lack of phrasing and articulation?
I have to listen to it again. I sometimes do have these kinda sticky 'problems' with Lionel Rogg, to be honest. Although I very much like his interpretation of the Mega Impressive Passacaglia & Fugue in C-minor, BWV 582. I've read somewhere that it's more 'HIP' to play it at full plenum from the beginning, but I still prefer the 'Bolero' kind of building. This is also done (if I remember it well) by f.i. Power Biggs and Chorzempa. At the end of the fuga thematum, Chorzempa plays some kind of a cadenza, that I've never heard before. It disturbs the structure a bit, but I was surprised to hear it, mainly in a positive way. At least it's something different. And again: the sound of this PentaTone re-recording is very much to my likings!

But it's not easy to give a thorough opinion about all this, since I'm not a real organ connaisseur. I don't know anything about all the 'technical' aspects, like stops, registrations, Hauptwerk, Rugwerk, or whatever. And there's another problem, too: since 2000/2001 (the release of the Bach boxes by Brilliant, a.o. the organ works by Fagius) I have not listened that much to organ music. Right now, after checking my collection, I switch from organ CD to organ CD like a 'raging bull', and I tend to like almost everything.

Well, to be honest, I'm not exactly raging, because I turned ill some days ago, and I feel rather sick. :(

But, to strengthen myself, I still play some (not only Bach) organ recordings. In a previous posting I forgot to mention this set, also reissued by Brilliant Classics:

(http://img164.imagevenue.com/loc1059/th_24707_51XNBSRVMAL._SS500A__122_1059lo.jpg) (http://img164.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24707_51XNBSRVMAL._SS500A__122_1059lo.jpg)

Here's the playing list:
http://www.amazon.com/Famous-Dutch-Organs/product-reviews/B000FS2W7G/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

I think it's worth every penny, although 3 CD's are also in the before mentioned Ton Koopman 6CD-box, licensed from AVC Records, Switzerland.
Van Doeselaar, f.i., is a good Bach player, too, I think. The recording however of his recital sounds a bit too 'distant'.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 24, 2009, 01:05:46 PM
Sticky: does this (f.i.) mean: lack of phrasing and articulation?

No, rather some lack of momentum. Actually he overdoes the articulation in his earlier HIP recordings, almost to the point of a parody.

At the end of the fuga thematum, Chorzempa plays some kind of a cadenza, that I've never heard before. It disturbs the structure a bit, but I was surprised to hear it, mainly in a positive way. At least it's something different.

This general pause near the end of the fugue is found in other similar works and is by some modern organists supposed to be the place, where you should couple the RW-plenum to the HW-plenum. The tracktion mechanism of former days did not allow this during the playing. Others (e.g. Chorzempa, E Power Biggs and A Newman) use the occation to play short cadenzas. I think a cadenza must be very, very stylish to wear well with repeated listening.

Well, to be honest, I'm not exactly raging, because I turned ill some days ago, and I feel rather sick. :(.

Oh, you should stay in bed and experience the soothing effect of good music, not the least organ music. I wish you a fast recovery.

..this set, also reissued by Brilliant Classics:

(http://img164.imagevenue.com/loc1059/th_24707_51XNBSRVMAL._SS500A__122_1059lo.jpg) (http://img164.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24707_51XNBSRVMAL._SS500A__122_1059lo.jpg)

I think it's worth every penny, although 3 CD's are also in the before mentioned Ton Koopman 6CD-box, licensed from AVC Records, Switzerland.
Van Doeselaar, f.i., is a good Bach player, too, I think. The recording however of his recital sounds a bit too 'distant'.

Yes, this is a very good set I think, and van Doeselaar perhaps the most impressive, almost titanic in effect. But the newly restored F.C.Schnitger organ in Alkmaar has got a substantial part in his success. I do not care much for the Reger pieces, but there is enough stuff in that box even without.

PS: see your PM (private mail)

Regards,
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 24, 2009, 02:05:32 PM
No, rather some lack of momentum. Actually he overdoes the articulation in his earlier HIP recordings, almost to the point of a parody.

This general pause near the end of the fugue is found in other similar works and is by some modern organists supposed to be the place, where you should couple the RW-plenum to the HW-plenum. The tracktion mechanism of former days did not allow this during the playing. Others (e.g. Chorzempa, E Power Biggs and A Newman) use the occation to play short cadenzas. I think a cadenza must be very, very stylish to wear well with repeated listening.

Oh, you should stay in bed and experience the soothing effect of good music, not the least organ music. I wish you a fast recovery.

Yes, this is a very good set I think, and van Doeselaar perhaps the most impressive, almost titanic in effect. But the newly restored F.C.Schnitger organ in Alkmaar has got a substantial part in his success. I do not care much for the Reger pieces, but there is enough stuff in that box even without.

PS: see your PM (private mail)

Regards,

Premont, thanks for the reaction & explanations. I'm considering to hire some books about organs & organ playing to learn more about the 'technical' facts.
Yes, Alkmaar is sounding even better than in the Walcha-years after the second Flentrop (1987) restoration. I think I'll go to sleep in a warm bed, mit Begleitung von Bach & Van Doeselaar. After I mentioned his name in my previous message, I suddenly realized something, did another collection-check and yes .... found another organ one: the Clavierübung III with Van The Man. I'll get better soon now!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 30, 2009, 05:52:08 PM
Anyone familiar with Margaret Phillips' performance of JS Bach organ works?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on March 30, 2009, 09:45:48 PM
Anyone familiar with Margaret Phillips' performance of JS Bach organ works?

I have her vols. 3 and 4.  Excellent performances but nothing really distinctive.  The sound on vol. 4 is perfect.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on March 31, 2009, 05:02:09 PM
I have her vols. 3 and 4.  Excellent performances but nothing really distinctive.  The sound on vol. 4 is perfect.

She recorded a total of 4 volumes on the Regent label and I am considering getting all of them before I get the Weinberger 22-CD set next month ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 02, 2009, 07:35:38 PM
These are my favorite LP's on Bach Organ Works ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 02, 2009, 07:36:40 PM
Here is another set on EMI by Lionel Rogg

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 03, 2009, 05:54:12 AM
She recorded a total of 4 volumes on the Regent label and I am considering getting all of them before I get the Weinberger 22-CD set next month ...

Just keep in mind that Phillips never reaches the heights achieved by Weinberger (nor the lows).  She's about as mainstream as it gets.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 03, 2009, 05:28:24 PM
Just keep in mind that Phillips never reaches the heights achieved by Weinberger (nor the lows).  She's about as mainstream as it gets.

Understood.  I always have an eye for new recordings of works by JS Bach - from passion to violin concertos to organ works ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 07, 2009, 09:56:04 AM
These are my favorite LP's on Bach Organ Works ...
[pictures of Lilly LP-covers Bach/Chorzempa]

Hmm, I recently missed a used CD version of the Schübler-recording by a narrow 50 eurocents.
These two issues are, AFAIK, OOP already for many years. :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2009, 12:25:00 PM
[....]
The last two or three weeks I have listened to a lot of Bach's organ music, with all the separate CD's that I found in my house, and Beekman's 2cd-sampler (also OOP) gives me the impression that his integral should be very good. He's playing on historical Dutch baroque organs. I would describe his playing as a fine combination of joy, spirituality and nobility. And the organs sound really wonderful. It's a real pity that this set is OOP. Hopefully another company is willing to buy the license.

About Chorzempa: this hybrid disc is a reissue of a 1970 quadrophonic Bach/Liszt recording, released by PentaTone. Especially the Bach works profit of a brilliant recording sound (organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, Netherlands). I almost drowned in it! :D

Three weeks later: I wouldn't call Beekman virtuosic; and his joy is more of a tranquil, serene and severe joy. In some spectacular pieces, like BWV 565, his playing isn't that appealing though, IMHO. After hearing a lot of organ players in this piece (again), Chorzempa is still the best to my likings. Too bad that a lot of his Bach-discography is OOP.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 14, 2009, 12:45:29 PM
Three weeks later: I wouldn't call Beekman virtuosic; and his joy is more of a tranquil, serene and severe joy. In some spectacular pieces, like BWV 565, his playing isn't that appealing though, IMHO. After hearing a lot of organ players in this piece (again), Chorzempa is still the best to my likings. Too bad that a lot of his Bach-discography is OOP.

I wonder whom he (Beekman) may be comparable to.

Foccroulle? Lagacé? Fagius? Johannesen?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
I wonder whom he (Beekman) may be comparable to.

Ha!
That's what I intended! ;D

Quote from: premont
Foccroulle? Lagacé? Fagius? Johannesen?

Pfui dich, what a question for a beginner in this discipline (organ listening)!  ;)

Of your list of names I only know Fagius, and I wouldn't compare Beekman to him.
With Beekman, it's especially the calm determination, or determined calmness, that appeals to me.

I would say: maybe one could place him in the Dutch no-nonsense and slightly calvinistic music-making of f.i. Gustav Leonhardt, Bernard Haitink, Hans Vonk?

But definitely not comparable with Ton Koopman, who is far more fast and furious. I must tell you though, that so far it's not easy to tell which musician I do or don't really like when Bach's organ is concerned. In fact, the sound and type of the instrument, combined with the 'space' of the recording is almost as important to me, if not more. Maybe at a later stage I'll be able to name my favourite performers. But, for instance, after listening to Beekman, I don't mind to turn to Koopman of Chorzempa, and vice versa. I guess I'm lucky right now: still enjoying (almost) everyone. I also enjoy to listen to Fagius (BIS/Brilliant Classics), Power Biggs (on the Harvard Flentrop) or the Duruflé family, although the 'Grande Orgue' the latters use (Soissons) is not especially to my likings.

I 'discovered' in the last 2/3 months that I have a few Bach organ-CDs that I'm not particularily fond of. For instance the recording with a.o. the Schübler-Chorale, part of the Naxos cycle, played by Wolfgang Rübsam. I experience his playing as a continuing stop-and-go-penalty, if I'm allowed to use this motorsports term. Rather tiresome, IMHO. From what I've read about him, I believe his Philips recordings were much better.
I also have 2 recordings with Michael Murray, and in his case I'm not really endeared by the instruments, either. Especially the LA First Congregational Church Organ wouldn't be my first choice in Bach. Which means that it's tough to keep on listening and enjoy myself. I know that Murray has played some baroque organs in the Netherlands (f.i. Zwolle), but I don't know these discs (yet?).

After typing all this, I remembered some statements in reviews about Jacques van Oortmerssen, that kinda made me think of Beekman. I searched at the internet for him and found this clip (BWV 530):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnv8gjbx-0Q

Like Beekman, he's not fast, and rather severe. But Van Oortmerssen is more varying in tempi, a bit like Rübsam, but just a little bit. I would describe Beekman's playing as being more straightforward.
Mind you, I say this only after increasingly listening to Beekman's sampler. I still have to find and do the 'whole bunch'. In fact, I still have to 'learn' almost the entire Bach Organ Catalogue. Combined with all the Walcha's, Alains, Vernets, etc., I think I have plenty to do for the next ten year! ;D

There is a SACD of Beekman available, by the way, with a selection of Toccata's and other organ works by German composers. The organ is a very special one (Oostkerk, Middelburg): if I'm not mistaken, it's some strange mix between Flemish, Dutch and German organ building of the 18th century.

http://www.amazon.com/Toccata-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B00008XS1Y

To conclude: some fragments of Beekman's organ playing, combined with other versions of the renaissance song "Est-ce mars". The organ fragments are taken from the disc Alle Registers Open. Not that difficult to translate, I think :). But I doubt if that one is still available, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmgmSH8zUEY
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 14, 2009, 04:41:58 PM
Ha!
I also have 2 recordings with Michael Murray, and in his case I'm not really endeared by the instruments, either. Especially the LA First Congregational Church Organ wouldn't be my first choice in Bach. Which means that it's tough to keep on listening and enjoy myself. I know that Murray has played some baroque organs in the Netherlands (f.i. Zwolle), but I don't know these discs (yet?).


I first heard Michael Murray on WNCN or WQXR when I lived in NYC over twenty years ago.  I just never liked his performance.  As such, he joins the list of Sinopoli, Stern and Levine, etc, whose recordings are not included in my collection.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 15, 2009, 11:26:45 PM

I would say: maybe one could place him in the Dutch no-nonsense and slightly calvinistic music-making of f.i. Gustav Leonhardt, Bernard Haitink, Hans Vonk?


"Dutch no-nonsense"? Jacques van Oortmerssen comes to mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2009, 07:31:44 AM
"Dutch no-nonsense"? Jacques van Oortmerssen comes to mind.

True. I mentioned him a little later, too: "[....] I remembered some statements in reviews about Jacques van Oortmerssen, that kinda made me think of Beekman".
And added a YouTube-link with him playing Bach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnv8gjbx-0Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 16, 2009, 08:02:09 AM
True. I mentioned him a little later, too: "[....] I remembered some statements in reviews about Jacques van Oortmerssen, that kinda made me think of Beekman".
And added a YouTube-link with him playing Bach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnv8gjbx-0Q

I thought I was missing something...well I have. :P  Strange to say, but nowadays I often prefer Bach organ playing that is a bit over-the-top: Lorenzo Ghielmi, Michel Chapuis, Olivier Vernet...for example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2009, 10:19:11 AM
I thought I was missing something...well I have. :P  Strange to say, but nowadays I often prefer Bach organ playing that is a bit over-the-top: Lorenzo Ghielmi, Michel Chapuis, Olivier Vernet...for example.

And why not? AFAIK, much of Bach's organ oeuvre was composed while he was still rather young. I mean, if the ever-so-popular BWV 565 really is genuine Sebastian .... need I say more? ;)
For instance, I really like Chorzempa in this piece (re-issued on hybrid SACD by PentaTone Classics), and one could consider his interpretation a bit 'wild', too. Another youthful and firm approach (though sounding less virtuosic) of this piece is performed by Stefan Johannes Bleicher on the Holzhey-organ of Weißenau, Germany (built 1784-1787). It's on a Arte Nova bargain that I bought recently.

Until so far, like I've mentioned before, I consider myself rather lucky (and busy :P).
Because, when Bach's organ is concerned, I seem to like all various kinds of interpretations. You've mentioned Vernet, and some time ago I also said I liked his recital (I have a copy of it on MiniDisc) on the organ of l'Église Sainte-Croix de Montélimar, which I think is one of his first recordings (late eighties?). Indeed, there's a lot of passion and energy in his playing, as Premont was saying. Since a couple of months, I always have this recording available when I'm travelling towards work.

About the 'Dutch' no-nonsense and calvinistic style of playing: I mentioned the name of Leonhardt, but no doubt he can be a very energetic interpreter, too. In fact, I tend to be rather cautious when strict classifications are concerned. But in some cases it can be very handy to unite musicians into so-called divisions. Just to give other members/readers an idea. On the other hand: these classifications can of course be very subjective .... and therefore even dead-wrong, in the ears of others. ;)

Anyway: enjoy your time listening to a wild and tempestuous Bach! :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2009, 11:15:23 AM
I wonder whom he (Beekman) may be comparable to.

Foccroulle? Lagacé? Fagius? Johannesen?

Maybe something of an answer: PM sent. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 17, 2009, 12:10:45 PM
I've finished struggling with getting Beekman 'complete'. Thanks to the Dutch libraries I have managed to make a copy of the missing volumes 2 & 5!
But, because I'm just a hungry greedy man :-[, instead of finally taking some time for a quiet organ listening evening and night, I'm already struggling with completing another 'Dutch' set, too!
It's about recordings of the organist Piet Wiersma, who started a Bach edition in the late nineties. But he died before completing, at the age of 57, right after he finished his recording at the Lohman-organ of the Hervormde Kerk in Eenrum, august 2003.
Eenrum is a village in the north of the Netherlands, in the province (county) of Groningen. Groningen is (relatively speaking) filled with historic organs, which means that a lot of well-known organists like to play there. Wiersma himself was born in this region, and stayed there his entire life. Although he was not a HIP or baroque musician, he was very interested in Bach, and managed to find some sponsors for his cycle Bach in Groningen.
He completed 7 volumes of 2CD-sets, and I'm on the right way! Volumes 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are already in da house! Volume 1 & 3 are OOP, according to the selling & sponsoring website (www.groningenorgelland.nl), but thanks (again) to the library, I could make a copy of Volume 3.

But Volume 1 is (almost?) impossible to find. Even the libraries don't seem to have it.
Is there a Dutch organ lover on the board who can help?

Que? .... he asked hesitatingly. :-[ :-[

Well, anyway, back to some listening experiences again. Wiersma can be very heavy sometimes, and the one organ sounds better than the other, IMHO. But, f.i., he executes a peace-giving and almost transcendental performance of one of my favourites, the Fantasia und Fuge in c-moll, BWV 537, on the organ of Farmsum. This is a very fine sounding instrument, also made by N.A. Lohman [1829].
Here's a pic:
(http://img244.imagevenue.com/loc130/th_02163_DSC03965A_122_130lo.jpg) (http://img244.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=02163_DSC03965A_122_130lo.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 17, 2009, 01:39:10 PM
Of your list of names I only know Fagius, and I wouldn't compare Beekman to him.
With Beekman, it's especially the calm determination, or determined calmness, that appeals to me.

I hear much determination in Fagius´ playing, but it is maybe more strict tham calm.

I would say: maybe one could place him in the Dutch no-nonsense and slightly calvinistic music-making of f.i. Gustav Leonhardt, Bernard Haitink, Hans Vonk?

Do not know Vonk. Haitink makes me think of some search for objectivism, indeed the opposite of Leonhardts subjectivism.

..the Duruflé family, although the 'Grande Orgue' the latters use (Soissons) is not especially to my likings.

Oh yes, this modern organ, designed to be suited for all music, and actually not suited for much, and at least not for early or baroque music. In my ears Maurice Duruflé and his wife are contrary poles as to interpretation. He is reflective and introspective, virtuosity being of secundary importance. She is first and foremost a brilliant performer, a bit superficial, the faster the better. A pity, that she was given the option to perform many of the greatest works (538, 548 e.g.)

I 'discovered' in the last 2/3 months that I have a few Bach organ-CDs that I'm not particularily fond of. For instance the recording with a.o. the Schübler-Chorale, part of the Naxos cycle, played by Wolfgang Rübsam. I experience his playing as a continuing stop-and-go-penalty, if I'm allowed to use this motorsports term. Rather tiresome, IMHO. From what I've read about him, I believe his Philips recordings were much better.

Rübsams Philips recording and Naxos recording are as different as day and night. Indeed I like both, even if agree, that the Philips recording is the most exciting. It is fast, brilliant, sometimes wild in expression, but always well controlled. The organ he uses though is rather uninteresting and middle of the road (a neobaroque Metzler organ). The Naxos recording is partly played upon historical organs, and most of it is extremely deliberate, static, sometimes almost approaching stand-still, and some of his registrations are in my ears a bit romantic, but the more I listen to it, the more I manage to get beneath the granite-like surface and become receptive to his individual artistic message, which I would describe as visions about eternity.

I also have 2 recordings with Michael Murray, and in his case I'm not really endeared by the instruments, either. Especially the LA First Congregational Church Organ wouldn't be my first choice in Bach. Which means that it's tough to keep on listening and enjoy myself. I know that Murray has played some baroque organs in the Netherlands (f.i. Zwolle), but I don't know these discs (yet?).

Murray bores me, whatever the instrument.

Like Beekman, he's not fast, and rather severe. But Van Oortmerssen is more varying in tempi, a bit like Rübsam, but just a little bit. I would describe Beekman's playing as being more straightforward.

In my ears van Oortmerssen is strict, correct, and not much more. And do not possess any bit of Rübsams originality.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 17, 2009, 01:58:16 PM
It's about recordings of the organist Piet Wiersma, who started a Bach edition in the late nineties. But he died before completing, at the age of 57, right after he finished his recording at the Lohman-organ of the Hervormde Kerk in Eenrum, august 2003.

More to learn, as I never have heard of Piet Wiersma. A sad story, though, reminding of Ewald Kooiman, who recently died in the midst of his third(!) Bach integral.

Never-the-less I am repeatedly impressed by the great number of competent and engaged Dutch organists, who incessantly make recordings on an artistic level which makes most of them must-have´s for people like me. Releases like the in every respect outstanding Dutch organ box (20CD) which Harry recommended some time ago, and which he helped me to get hold of, would never arise in any other country.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 17, 2009, 02:01:00 PM
..nowadays I often prefer Bach organ playing that is a bit over-the-top: Lorenzo Ghielmi, Michel Chapuis, Olivier Vernet...for example.

Strange that you mention these three so very different artist in the same breath.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 17, 2009, 03:44:05 PM

Murray bores me, whatever the instrument.

Yes, he can be a total bore, especially in the bigger works such as the Preludes & Fugues/Toccatas etc.  However, he does improve a lot in Bach's chorales.  But overall, he's too heavy and slow.  I bought a couple of his Telarc discs, and that was the end of him for me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 17, 2009, 06:22:57 PM
Yes, he can be a total bore, especially in the bigger works such as the Preludes & Fugues/Toccatas etc.  However, he does improve a lot in Bach's chorales.  But overall, he's too heavy and slow.  I bought a couple of his Telarc discs, and that was the end of him for me.

Same here.  I never even own a single CD by Michael Murray after I heard one of his CD's off the local classical FM station.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 17, 2009, 10:21:23 PM
Strange that you mention these three so very different artist in the same breath.

To me their performances are all quite more "animated" in comparison to the, mmm, no-nonsense group, hence the bracketing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 17, 2009, 10:48:23 PM
More to learn, as I never have heard of Piet Wiersma. A sad story, though, reminding of Ewald Kooiman, who recently died in the midst of his third(!) Bach integral.

I said Wiersma stayed in Groningen his entire life, but I'm not sure if that is true.
From 1983 on, he was organist of the Grote of St. Nicolaaskerk in Monnickendam, province Noord-Holland.
But he kept on teaching in the Groningen environment. His nickname was de lesboer, which is Dutch for 'the lesson farmer'. From what I've read about him, he must have been a very inspiring teacher. I think 'lesboer' is a typical Groningen expression, because Wiersma's home county is still very agrarian.

Listening to Wiersma's Bach in Groningen is something of experiencing a true live recital. Wiersma apparently did not care for the odd mistake here and there. From time to time he touches two keys at the same time, giving the piece an unexpected dissonant side effect. Sometimes he can be rather rough and extravert, but, f.i. in BWV 537, there is also enough room for more introspective playing.

About Kooiman: actually, a library CD is on the way. But it's not a Bach recital, but a disc with mainly compositions of Johann Peter Kellner. He is the suspected author of BWV 565, as some scholars suggest.

So, I'm still busy travelling on my organ quest. Maybe I'll turn into some kind of a Lancelot .... and who knows what fair maid is waiting for me! ;D

Let's dream on: entering the Oude Kerk in Delft, and listening to Scarlett Johansson (dressed as Griet from the movie Girl with a pearl earring) playing Bach on the organ. 8)

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on April 17, 2009, 11:21:05 PM
t's about recordings of the organist Piet Wiersma, who started a Bach edition in the late nineties. But he died before completing, at the age of 57, right after he finished his recording at the Lohman-organ of the Hervormde Kerk in Eenrum, august 2003.

He completed 7 volumes of 2CD-sets, and I'm on the right way! Volumes 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are already in da house! Volume 1 & 3 are OOP, according to the selling & sponsoring website (www.groningenorgelland.nl), but thanks (again) to the library, I could make a copy of Volume 3.

But Volume 1 is (almost?) impossible to find. Even the libraries don't seem to have it.
Is there a Dutch organ lover on the board who can help?

Que? .... he asked hesitatingly. :-[ :-[


Nope, I'm sorry that I have to dissapoint you.  :-\
Bach's organ works are relatively new to me - I'm still scratching the surface of the more generally availble recordings. :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 17, 2009, 11:28:13 PM

Let's dream on: entering the Oude Kerk in Delft, and listening to Scarlett Johansson (dressed as Griet from the movie Girl with a pearl earring) playing Bach on the organ. 8)



That sounds interesting considering none of the organists you have since mentioned in this thread is female.  Me, I want Colin Firth in the organ loft ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 17, 2009, 11:56:34 PM
Let's dream on: entering the Oude Kerk in Delft, and listening to Scarlett Johansson (dressed as Griet from the movie Girl with a pearl earring) playing Bach on the organ. 8)

That sounds interesting considering none of the organists you have since mentioned in this thread is female. 

That's why I call it a dream. 0:)

Quote from: traverso
Me, I want Colin Firth in the organ loft ;)

Not bad, really.
He's so endearing in Love actually!
And who's assisting him with registrating?
Hugh Grant?

Errrr, enough romantic blabbering. This is supposed to be a baroque thread.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 18, 2009, 12:03:10 AM
Nope, I'm sorry that I have to dissapoint you.  :-\
Bach's organ works are relatively new to me - I'm still scratching the surface of the more generally availble recordings. :)

Q, thanks for reacting anyway.
I discovered Wiersma by coincedence. I walked into the office of the Stichting Oude Groninger Kerken some time ago, hoping that they still had some copies of Lindenberg CD's that were recorded in .... well, oude Groninger kerken. ;)
They didn't have any Lindenberg stuff, but they did have 3 volumes of Wiersma's Bach in Groningen. Probably I was in a mood of throwing some money away, and that's why I bought all three of them. Mind you, it turned out that I only had to pay € 7,50 per 2CD-set. I still consider it good value for money!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 19, 2009, 02:59:56 AM
Rübsams Philips recording and Naxos recording are as different as day and night. Indeed I like both, even if agree, that the Philips recording is the most exciting. It is fast, brilliant, sometimes wild in expression, but always well controlled. The organ he uses though is rather uninteresting and middle of the road (a neobaroque Metzler organ). The Naxos recording is partly played upon historical organs, and most of it is extremely deliberate, static, sometimes almost approaching stand-still, and some of his registrations are in my ears a bit romantic, but the more I listen to it, the more I manage to get beneath the granite-like surface and become receptive to his individual artistic message, which I would describe as visions about eternity.

Well, I'm not unsympathetic towards giving Rübsam another chance. 0:)

That's why I bought some Naxos discs that were available in local shops. I was happy to buy a disc with the doubtful Trio BWV 584, a piece that is only rarely recorded, AFAIK.

I began listening to a sampler with the odd title The Great Organ Works (Naxos 8.553859). The article 'the' isn't very well chosen, I'd say.

My first experiences with this CD leave me with rather mixed emotions.

The Kellner ;) Toccata & Fuge in d-moll BWV 565 is part of this disc, almost needless to say. I do not mind at all about the ornamentations (on the contrary), and the Toccata, though a bit on the slow side, sounds very good to me. But during the Fugue I was thinking: did anyone destroy this Flentrop organ with an overdose of glue? The rather slow tempo doesn't bother me, but the 'sticky' way of playing is not my cup of tea. Also the lenghtening of some notes and chords are not to my likings. It takes out the driving force of this (probably) young man's piece.

The flow of the 'Little' Fuge in g-moll (BWV 578) is much better realized, despite some 'hesitations'.
 
I also have less personal difficulties with Rübsam's playing in f.i. the great Praeludium & Fuge in Es-Dur BWV 552 (slow, but monumental) and the choral Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BWV 639. The first note of the choral sounds a bit strange though (overtone?).   

The 'stop and go' way of Rübsam's playing is also part of his interpretation of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio & Fuge in C-Dur BWV 564, but in a more controlled manner. Maybe this composition is better 'Rübsam-proof' ;). Anyway, I enjoyed listening to it.
That's something I've experienced these last months, btw: in Bach's organ music it seems I'm more tolerant towards eccentricities and mannerism compared to his vocal works.

On the other hand: the ever impressive Passacaglia & Fuge in c-moll BWV 582 must be (one of) the slowest existing on disc, and IMO the tension is disappearing the further the piece is developing. Maybe I'll need another dozen listening sessions to appreciate it, but in my favourite organ piece I prefer f.i. Power Biggs, Rogg, Koopman and Beekman (also not that fast, but majestic in an inexorable way) by far.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 19, 2009, 09:08:28 AM
Well, Marc, I think I implicit referred to Rübsams Naxos cycle as an acquired taste, - which BTW eventually pays - or (to be precise) payed in my case. His tempi are generally slow, but they need to be slow, to manage to contain all the expression he puts into the music. Do not acquire his Naxos AoF at once, this is perhaps the most difficult to "digest".
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 09:25:12 AM
Well, Marc, I think I implicit referred to Rübsams Naxos cycle as an acquired taste, - which BTW eventually pays - or (to be precise) payed in my case. His tempi are generally slow, but they need to be slow, to manage to contain all the expression he puts into the music. Do not acquire his Naxos AoF at once, this is perhaps the most difficult to "digest".

I very much like Rubsam's Bach (organ and piano).  He's a distinctive and thought-provoking artist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 19, 2009, 09:58:40 AM
I very much like Rubsam's Bach (organ and piano).  He's a distinctive and thought-provoking artist.

Can't really say anything on the piano part; for the last couple of years I prefer by far the harpsichord in baroque music.

Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music. Variety keeps the listener hungry, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately this also means it costs me a lot of money. For the rest of this month I'm kinda bankrupt. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 10:08:56 AM
Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music. Variety keeps the listener hungry, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately this also means it costs me a lot of money. For the rest of this month I'm kinda bankrupt. ;D

I'll take Rubsam over Koopman every time.  But as you say, variety is the key here.  As for feeling bankrupt, I know that feeling and it sucks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 19, 2009, 10:15:07 AM
I'll take Rubsam over Koopman every time. But as you say, variety is the key here.  As for feeling bankrupt, I know that feeling and it sucks.

Well, I'm lucky with my library card. :)
I don't want to make you angry with this, but sometimes I refer to W.R.'s Bach playing with Rübsam ist mühsam.
But if I really disliked his playing that much, I would not have bought 4 Naxos discs of him. So, in the end: he's not bad, he's just different. Bless him! 0:)

Yes, we're all individuals!
Yes, we're all different!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 10:24:44 AM
I don't want to make you angry with this, but sometimes I refer to W.R.'s Bach playing with Rübsam ist mühsam.

I can see how you might consider Rubsam's Bach laborious, but I sure don't feel that way about his interpretations.  Anyways, we're cool.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 19, 2009, 10:51:18 AM
Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music.

Even I would take Rübsam over Koopman every time. Not the least because of Koopman´s untidy mannerisms, which I often find irritating. Just listen to the way he (in the DG recording) adorns the Fugue theme of BWV 538 (the Dorian T+F).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 19, 2009, 12:01:52 PM
Even I would take Rübsam over Koopman every time. Not the least because of Koopman´s untidy mannerisms, which I often find irritating. Just listen to the way he (in the DG recording) adorns the Fugue theme of BWV 538 (the Dorian T+F).

Ha!
Koopman and his joyous adornments!
(I think Harnoncourt doesn't believe in all those self-invented ornamentations, either. I remember an interview where he way saying something like: "just play the ornamentations that Bach wrote down himself". Problem though: there aren't that many original handwritings of his organ works left, AFAIK.)

Just a small side-step:
This afternoon I saw on the telly the last 20 minutes or so of a documentary about the Oscar Back violinist concours in the Netherlands. Oscar Back, a Hungarian violin teacher, who lived in Amsterdam for a great part of his life, was quoted: "you don't have to wear a beard if you want to play Bach". In those days, Bach apparently was mainly considered a very serious wig, only to be understood by serious elder people.
Well, maybe there you have the main difference between two 'mannered' Bach interpreters Rübsam and Koopman.
Rübsam is not wearing a beard (he's wearing an impressive moustache, though), but in a way he's playing Bach like he wears one. Slow, very thoughtful, sometimes trying to stop time from going on, as though the old bearded wig would not accept that time waits for no one, or even trying to achieve some kind of an afterlife already. Comparable with Celibidache? (he asked hesitatingly).
Koopman is wearing a beard. And Koopman is growing older, too, but doesn't seem to bother about those things. He's still playing Bach like he's some enthousiastic adolescent, full of life. Sometimes that can be irritating, I agree with you. One has to be in the right mood for that. But maybe I still want to feel like an adolescent myself, because in most cases Koopman's organ playing is able to make me feel good and give me new energy.

Well, I guess that's it for today. I'm off to bed!
Nice talking with both of you, Bulldog and Premont, despite the different opinions here and there. See ya again on the board.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 19, 2009, 02:55:09 PM
Rübsam is not wearing a beard (he's wearing an impressive moustache, though), but in a way he's playing Bach like he wears one. Slow, very thoughtful, sometimes trying to stop time from going on, as though the old bearded wig would not accept that time waits for no one, or even trying to achieve some kind of an afterlife already.

Thi is very much what I think too, but I would not call him mannered in the usual sense. I think his agogics are rather spontaneous, and would expect two performances of the same work by him to be somewhat different as to musical content.




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 20, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 20, 2009, 08:43:45 PM
You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam

:)

Someone should compose an opera about him!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2009, 07:47:08 PM
:)

Someone should compose an opera about him!

Today I was reading the book Sculpting in time of the Russian cinema director Andrei Tarkovski, when I found this:

“I am always lost in admiration for those medieval Japanese artists who worked in the court of their Shogun until they had achieved recognition, and then, at the peak of their fame, would change their entire lives by going off in secret to a new place to start working again under a different name and in another style. Some are known to have lived up to five distinct lives. That is freedom!”

I immediately recalled these messages about Rübsam.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 23, 2009, 07:17:23 AM
You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam

Since Rubsam owns the shop, he can work as many or few hours as he wants.  Cutting hair requires admirable dexterity of the hands and fingers.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 07:01:48 AM
For those who know this Gerhard Weinberger's set well, which is the best CD in this set?  I just ordered this set from MDT two days ago ...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ch6MV8HFL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 25, 2009, 08:32:13 AM
For those who know this Gerhard Weinberger's set well, which is the best CD in this set?  I just ordered this set from MDT two days ago ...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ch6MV8HFL._SS500_.jpg)


Those discs that have the Orgelbüchlein, Leipzig Chorales and Art of Fugue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 09:05:06 AM
Today I was reading the book Sculpting in time of the Russian cinema director Andrei Tarkovski, when I found this:

“I am always lost in admiration for those medieval Japanese artists who worked in the court of their Shogun until they had achieved recognition, and then, at the peak of their fame, would change their entire lives by going off in secret to a new place to start working again under a different name and in another style. Some are known to have lived up to five distinct lives. That is freedom!”

I immediately recalled these messages about Rübsam.

 

Rübsam seems to be a humble person who does not want to put himself on the pedestal, a trap many artists who have achieved some fame always fall into ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 09:09:37 AM
While Margaret Phillips has been billed as one of the most outstanding organists in England, after I have listened to the first of the four 2-CD sets on the Regent label I have recently bought from MDT, I still have not been charmed by her performance.  Her performance of the Schubler Chorale sounds nice, but I like Daniel Chorzempa better ... 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OkGGDtVRL._SS400_.jpg)

 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 25, 2009, 09:54:08 AM
While Margaret Phillips has been billed as one of the most outstanding organists in England, after I have listened to the first of the four 2-CD sets on the Regent label I have recently bought from MDT, I still have not been charmed by her performance.  Her performance of the Schubler Chorale sounds nice, but I like Daniel Chorzempa better ... 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OkGGDtVRL._SS400_.jpg)

 

Sorry to hear that you're not pleased with the first set.  Maybe things will improve as you progress.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 10:15:15 AM
Sorry to hear that you're not pleased with the first set.  Maybe things will improve as you progress.


I wonder if I should have played the CD on my big rig instead of my desktop.  My bipolar speakers and the 230 watts/ch amp are a world different than my desktop. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 25, 2009, 10:35:55 AM


I wonder if I should have played the CD on my big rig instead of my desktop.  My bipolar speakers and the 230 watts/ch amp are a world different than my desktop. 

Yes, give it your best equipment.  The king of instruments deserves nothing less.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 04:11:34 PM
Yes, give it your best equipment.  The king of instruments deserves nothing less.


You are absolutely correct.  Playing organ works on a desktop makes little sense since I am missing all the bass of the pipe organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 08:10:59 PM
This DVD is almost like a compendium to Marie-Claire Alain's 3rd cycle of Bach Organ Works for which various historical organs were used for the recording of that cycle.  In fact, I believe the DVD (shot in 1990) was filmed during the time of that recording cycle.  For those of us who love organ works but really have never seen how that king of instruments is played, this DVD is great.  With a three-tiered keyboard and the pedals make up another keyboard on the foot level, the organ is helluva musical instrument to play.  The DVD not only shows some virtuoso organ playing by one of the greatest organists in the last 50 years, it also shows some fancy footwork on the part of Alain to make that organ hit the spine-tinkling lows.  For about $15 with shipping from Amazon MP, it is a bargain.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FcgHXc4TL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 25, 2009, 11:13:17 PM
[Very positive remarks about the Marie-Claire Alain DVD]

Seen that one on the internet before. Thanks for the reminder!
My wallett is rather empty, but I'm sure I'll be ordering this one before the year has ended!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 26, 2009, 11:51:42 AM
Re-playing CD2, which includes the 6 Schubler Chorales of this set on my big rig.  The organ playing definitely comes alive compared with playing the same disc on my Dell desktop, as I could hear the pedals and the music gets pumped through the bipolar (tower) speakers by the 230 watts/ch amp.  Indeed, pipe organ music has to be played on a real sound system, not a computer.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OkGGDtVRL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on April 27, 2009, 12:54:55 PM
Re-playing CD2, which includes the 6 Schubler Chorales of this set on my big rig.  The organ playing definitely comes alive compared with playing the same disc on my Dell desktop, as I could hear the pedals and the music gets pumped through the bipolar (tower) speakers by the 230 watts/ch amp.  Indeed, pipe organ music has to be played on a real sound system, not a computer.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41OkGGDtVRL._SS400_.jpg)

Having listened now to all the four extant doubleCDs Margaret Philips has released so far, I would say, that she plays like a first class organ pupil, doing all the things the teachers and the great books tell her to do, but I certainly miss some individuality, some individual authority, some sort of individual interpretation, - actually you know all to early in the listening process what she is going to do all through, no surprises there, and in fact listening to her resembles score reading. Well, what about the interesting organs she uses? Yes, but others have made more interesting recordings upon the same organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 27, 2009, 03:23:29 PM
Having listened now to all the four extant doubleCDs Margaret Philips has released so far, I would say, that she plays like a first class organ pupil, doing all the things the teachers and the great books tell her to do, but I certainly miss some individuality, some individual authority, some sort of individual interpretation, - actually you know all to early in the listening process what she is going to do all through, no surprises there, and in fact listening to her resembles score reading. Well, what about the interesting organs she uses? Yes, but others have made more interesting recordings upon the same organs.

I pretty much feel the same about the Philips discs, but don't you love the sound on vol. 4?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 27, 2009, 04:56:39 PM
I pretty much feel the same about the Philips discs, but don't you love the sound on vol. 4?
 

I will report on the sound on Vol. 4 when I get there.  It looks like all 4 volumes were recorded after 2000 and as such, most should have been recorded with the latest recording technology, which may or may not result in better sound.  According to Margaret Phillips' biography, Marie-Claire Alain was her teacher at some point.  I wonder if she has inherited something from that old master ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 27, 2009, 07:06:50 PM
 

I will report on the sound on Vol. 4 when I get there.  It looks like all 4 volumes were recorded after 2000 and as such, most should have been recorded with the latest recording technology, which may or may not result in better sound. 

Just want to say that I generally find little correlation between the date of a recording and its sound quality. 

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 06:42:06 AM
I'm starting a little marathon of recordings of Bach's Liepzig Chorales.  First one up was George Ritchie on the Raven label.  Enjoyed it very much although variety of expression is not wide.  I felt spiritually enriched while listening; that's all to the good.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 29, 2009, 08:52:25 AM
I'm starting a little marathon of recordings of Bach's Liepzig Chorales. First one up was George Ritchie on the Raven label. 

Ritchie: heard of him, never heard him. But who knows what the future brings. :)
I'm listening to Wolfgang Stockmeier right now. 2 box sets of 10 cd's each, for € 30,--. I hesitated a little while and then I thought: bread & butter tonight, I can afford this!
And I'm quite happy with this purchase after a (very very) short listening: legato in the chorales (which I don't mind), but there seems to be enough spirit in the non-liturgical works. Although the fugue of BWV 565 (why do I always have to start with this??) could use some more bite in the beginning.

Quote from: Bulldog
Enjoyed it very much although variety of expression is not wide. I felt spiritually enriched while listening; that's all to the good.

Well, that's not bad, I'd say. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 11:42:50 AM
I'm listening to Wolfgang Stockmeier right now. 2 box sets of 10 cd's each, for € 30,--. I hesitated a little while and then I thought: bread & butter tonight, I can afford this!
And I'm quite happy with this purchase after a (very very) short listening: legato in the chorales (which I don't mind), but there seems to be enough spirit in the non-liturgical works. Although the fugue of BWV 565 (why do I always have to start with this??) could use some more bite in the beginning.


Although the Stockmeier set has been around a long time, I've never heard any of it.  I do have Stockmeier performing Scheidt on a CPO disc - very rewarding.








Scheidt
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 29, 2009, 12:11:02 PM
Although the Stockmeier set has been around a long time, I've never heard any of it.  I do have Stockmeier performing Scheidt on a CPO disc - very rewarding.

It looks as if you planned to include a picture of this Scheidt disc, that I could not see though.
Is it the CPO 999 105: Scheidt: Organ Works from Tabulatura Nova (1624)?

Anyway, that's the one I just ordered from the central music library. Thanks for mentioning the Scheidt-Stockmeier connection!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 01:19:05 PM
It looks as if you planned to include a picture of this Scheidt disc, that I could not see though.
Is it the CPO 999 105: Scheidt: Organ Works from Tabulatura Nova (1624)?

Anyway, that's the one I just ordered from the central music library. Thanks for mentioning the Scheidt-Stockmeier connection!

My pleasure and, yes, you've ordered the right disc.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 29, 2009, 04:25:20 PM
The next time I get the chance to buy the 3rd recording of JS Bach Organ Works by Marie-Claire Alain at a good price, I will grab it.  It must be a joy to hear the various JS Bach organ works played on different historical organs throughout Europe ...    ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on April 29, 2009, 05:27:21 PM
The next time I get the chance to buy the 3rd recording of JS Bach Organ Works by Marie-Claire Alain at a good price, I will grab it.  It must be a joy to hear the various JS Bach organ works played on different historical organs throughout Europe ...    ;D

It's not like Alain is the only performer to do so.  Weinberger comes to mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on April 29, 2009, 05:32:25 PM
It's not like Alain is the only performer to do so.  Weinberger comes to mind.

My 22-CD Weinberger set is on its way from the UK.  I ordered it from MDT last week ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on April 29, 2009, 07:53:56 PM
My 22-CD Weinberger set is on its way from the UK.  I ordered it from MDT last week ...

The Weinberger has to be the MOST complete of 'em all, even among complete Bach sets.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on April 29, 2009, 09:10:41 PM
In between discussions, etc.:
this Dutch link might be interesting:
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/

On the right upper edge of the homepage there are two flags visible: the Dutch 'tricolore' and the Union Jack for the English version. It's possible to order cd's from abroad.
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/contact/index.html

For instance, they have (probably a very limited amount) of Bach/Beekman cd's left. One sampler and the volumes 4, 8 and 9.
This series is OOP, so it might be your last chance to get some (only if you're interested, of course).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 01, 2009, 02:51:47 PM
The Weinberger has to be the MOST complete of 'em all, even among complete Bach sets. ;)

Well, Stockmeier's set contains 20 cd's. He finished his integral in 1981. The 'new' Neumeister chorals weren't discovered yet, and neither were BWV 1121 and 1128. He also didn't play BWV Anhang or BWV deest compostions.
Apart from that: he probably beats Weinberger in completeness.

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Organ-Works-Germany/dp/B000H9HZGG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1241217704&sr=1-5
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Organ-Works-Germany/dp/B000H9HZGQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1241217704&sr=1-3

This integral really is good value for money, IMO.
Stockmeier is playing on neo-baroque organs (I think, there are no booklets inside), made by Kreienbrink. This must be organ builder Matthias Kreienbrink, who, in 1951, took over the organ building company of the Firma Rohlfing in Osnabrück, Germany.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on May 01, 2009, 03:37:04 PM
Well, Stockmeier's set contains 20 cd's. He finished his integral in 1981. The 'new' Neumeister chorals weren't discovered yet, and neither were BWV 1121 and 1128. He also didn't play BWV Anhang or BWV deest compostions.
Apart from that: he probably beats Weinberger in completeness.
(snip)

Weinberger's set looks more complete to me.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 01, 2009, 04:15:48 PM
Weinberger's set looks more complete to me.  ;)

Hey!
I would NEVER deny that!

But there's no BWV 573, 576, 580, 581, 584, 597, 598, 692, 693, 743, 744, 745, 746, 748, 752, 753, 759, etc.
Doubtful authenticity?
Sure, but Weinberger did record other doubtful works, too. Three volumes of Werke zweifelhafter Echtheit, even including .... BWV 565! ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 02, 2009, 09:05:30 AM
I am just baffled by the fact that Stefan Bleicher has not recorded more organ works by Bach.  I have the following set, which is quite nice in my opinion.  But then I am no expert in Franz Liszt.  Isn't he supposed to be one of the promising younger-generation German organists?

I only know that his Bach disc (Arte Nova) has been reissued some years ago, with a graveyard cover:

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm300/m339/m33971t5fgk.jpg)

That's what I call marketing! Must be a million seller, only because of that!


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 02, 2009, 02:26:10 PM
The Weinberger has to be the MOST complete of 'em all, even among complete Bach sets. ;)

Forgot to mention in our earlier 'battle' ;):
check out Kevin Bowyer (on Nimbus): 17 volumes on 27 cd's. :o
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 02, 2009, 08:08:00 PM
Forgot to mention in our earlier 'battle' ;):
check out Kevin Bowyer (on Nimbus): 17 volumes on 27 cd's. :o

I just received the Weinberger box yesterday and it says 22 CD on its cover ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 02, 2009, 11:40:23 PM
Forgot to mention in our earlier 'battle' ;):
check out Kevin Bowyer (on Nimbus): 17 volumes on 27 cd's. :o

With volumes 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 on two discs and volume 17 on three, I count 29 CDs, total.

But that's hardly the point. (Neither is reading the number off the box and reiterating it--we've already mentioned how many CDs the Weinberger contains. )

The Bowyer CDs (everything I have of his I've liked, actually) aren't nearly as neatly/efficiently stacked as the CPOs with Weinberger. I'm missing several Bowyer volumes, but I'm pretty sure that if we list all the works included, Weinberger will show to be even more comprehensive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 12:42:13 AM
With volumes 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 on two discs and volume 17 on three, I count 29 CDs, total.

But that's hardly the point. (Neither is reading the number off the box and reiterating it--we've already mentioned how many CDs the Weinberger contains. )

The Bowyer CDs (everything I have of his I've liked, actually) aren't nearly as neatly/efficiently stacked as the CPOs with Weinberger. I'm missing several Bowyer volumes, but I'm pretty sure that if we list all the works included, Weinberger will show to be even more comprehensive.

Right.
Well, anyway: in the end it's about quality, not quantity, isn't it?
But sometimes I like to be a little corny. I wanted to win the 'battle' that much, it even made me miscalculate. :-[
I haven't heard anything from Bowyer yet. Some time ago, I tried to locate his first (?) Bach recital in the (Dutch) central music library catalogue, but couldn't find it. It was called A Late 20th Century Edwardian Bach Recital. I thought it might have been a good introduction to Bowyer's Bach.

Is anyone familiar with his Bach recordings?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 03, 2009, 07:17:44 AM
I am just vigilantly waiting for the third cycle by Marie-Claire Alain to be released in a Warner big box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 09:45:42 AM
I'm starting a little marathon of recordings of Bach's Liepzig Chorales.  First one up was George Ritchie on the Raven label.  Enjoyed it very much although variety of expression is not wide.  I felt spiritually enriched while listening; that's all to the good.

I listened to an additional four versions: Christina Garcia Banegas on Motette, Peter Sykes on Raven, Gillian Weir on Priory and Koopman on Teldec.  Surprisingly, I find Ritchie more rewarding than each of the others.  Weir's could have a great version, but there's far too much reverberation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:06:41 AM
I listened to an additional four versions: Christina Garcia Banegas on Motette, Peter Sykes on Raven, Gillian Weir on Priory and Koopman on Teldec. Surprisingly, I find Ritchie more rewarding than each of the others. Weir's could have a great version, but there's far too much reverberation.

All those mentioning of recordings that I don't have!

Please Bulldog, don't ruin me (financially)! :'(

Sigh.
Checked the library catalogue (again). Only found Banegas and Weir. Koopman I already have.
Apart from the recording sound, I understand that Weir is interesting. What are her strong points, in your view? And what is your (more detailed) opinion on Banegas?
Thanks in advance for responding.

(EDIT: I've already taken the liberty to order Weir's Volume 3 of the Organ Master Series, with a.o. the so-called Lutheran Mass (BWV 552 et al).)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 10:41:05 AM
All those mentioning of recordings that I don't have!

Please Bulldog, don't ruin me (financially)! :'(

Sigh.
Checked the library catalogue (again). Only found Banegas and Weir. Koopman I already have.
Apart from the recording sound, I understand that Weir is interesting. What are her strong points, in your view? And what is your (more detailed) opinion on Banegas?
Thanks in advance for responding.

Generally, Weir gives off a strong whiff of "Papa Bach" with his arms stretched out to nuture all takers; unfortunately, the soundstage doesn't quite allow for this full effect.  As for Banegas, she indulges in some clipped rhythmic patterns I don't care for.

Back to Weir.  I also have her volume 3 that you just ordered.  That one's a winner with much better sonics.  If you're interested, you can check out my review on MusicWeb International.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:48:18 AM
Don, thanks for answering.
For anyone else who is interested, this must be the MusicWeb link:

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2004/feb04/bach_weir3.htm

Another recording to look forward to! I'm a very busy man. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 03, 2009, 11:01:43 AM
Don, thanks for answering.
For anyone else who is interested, this must be the MusicWeb link:

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2004/feb04/bach_weir3.htm

Another recording to look forward to! I'm a very busy man. :)

Has Gillian Weir ever recorded the Complete Bach Organ Works?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 03, 2009, 01:29:40 PM
Right.
Well, anyway: in the end it's about quality, not quantity, isn't it?

Precisely. Not he who has the most CDs wins (although the quantity contest seems to please quite a bit, I gather), but he (or she) who takes the most enjoyment out of the music.

Quote
A Late 20th Century Edwardian Bach Recital[/i]. I thought it might have been a good introduction to Bowyer's Bach.
Is anyone familiar with his Bach recordings?

I find that Bowyer shines where Weinberger is reticent. The big works. There's a splash of indulgence in his Bach that I really quite like. Perhaps not to the very best effect in the Passacaglia (though that's grand stuff, too), but most everywhere else. If you start with his "Organ Mass", I think that'd be a very good, telling, and favorable (or not, but then beware of the rest...) introduction to Bowyer's Bach.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 02:36:54 PM
Precisely. Not he who has the most CDs wins (although the quantity contest seems to please quite a bit, I gather), but he (or she) who takes the most enjoyment out of the music.

I find that Bowyer shines where Weinberger is reticent. The big works. There's a splash of indulgence in his Bach that I really quite like. Perhaps not to the very best effect in the Passacaglia (though that's grand stuff, too), but most everywhere else. If you start with his "Organ Mass", I think that'd be a very good, telling, and favorable (or not, but then beware of the rest...) introduction to Bowyer's Bach.

Thanks for this information.

In about 1 1/2 weeks I will be Organ Massing along with Bach, Bowyer and Weir.
:)

BTW: what I liked about Weir, according to Don's MusicWeb review, is that apparently she has chosen to make both a little and a great 'Lutheran Mass'.
Almost all these third 'Clavierübungs' are spread over 2cd's, so I couldn't program it entirely that way. But I very much understand her choice in this.
In slightly another way, I also appreciate f.i. Van Doeselaar's choice to perform 'only' a great mass, combined with choral singing and works of other composers.

Van Doeselaar link:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Kyrie-Vater-Ewigkeit-Clavier-Ubung/dp/B00000JPYK
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 03:11:38 PM
Has Gillian Weir ever recorded the Complete Bach Organ Works?

Not that I know of.
In her Organ Master Series there is room for other composers, too.

She's well-known for her Messiaen performances. She recorded his integral in 5 volumes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 03:22:32 PM
Has Gillian Weir ever recorded the Complete Bach Organ Works?

If you're looking for another box, Weir is not the answer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 03, 2009, 03:32:38 PM
Precisely. Not he who has the most CDs wins (although the quantity contest seems to please quite a bit, I gather), but he (or she) who takes the most enjoyment out of the music.


I think the "quantity" priority has increased greatly on the board in recent months.  Any ideas why? 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 03, 2009, 04:41:56 PM
If you're looking for another box, Weir is not the answer.

Just out of curiosity.  I really have little intention to go significantly beyond the six sets I already have.  In all likelihood, I will just add the third recording by Marie-Claire Alain and call it quit ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:59:54 PM
I think the "quantity" priority has increased greatly on the board in recent months.  Any ideas why? 

Maybe because record companies are offering more and more box sets during the last years?

Honestly, I myself do 'sympathize' with both quality and quantity aspects of buying music.

When Bach's organ compositions are concerned: apparently a lot of respected organist want to record the entire oeuvre, even the works of lesser quality. So why aren't the listeners allowed to want to buy them?

Of course, as was stated before, quality is the main thing.

But if I hear f.i. Koopman or Vernet playing on a single disc and I like what I hear, it may happen that I 'long' to have their entire Bach integral, especially when the price is attractive.
When I see a very budget-priced set (i.c. Stockmeier) I can feel very tempted to buy it, because I'm curious how he's playing and also curious about the price/value combination.

Don, you seem to own a decent amount of recordings yourself. And recently you have been listening to some discs with the Leipzig chorals. I assume that you own them yourself. But apparently they aren't all that good, as your comments are showing. So, according to your own small reviews (thanks again for them!), it may have been wiser to listen to some samples before buying .... like in the good old days in the old-fashioned record shop.

So one could ask in this specific matter:
Why did you buy them?
For quality or quantity reasons?
Out of curiosity?
Did someone with good knowledge praise them?
Or were some of them budget-priced?

Or are you one of the 'chosen people' ;) who get their discs without paying, because they are professional reviewers? In that case, you can have both quantity and quality for free. Maybe it's not really fair to judge the average music lover who wants to have all those discs, too. And who also has to pay for them. 

Don't get me wrong: if a board consists only of remarks like "I have 127 recordings of this, and 74 recordings of that", then I'm bored very quickly, too. Of course I would prefer it, if those collectors would say something interesting about the quality of all those recordings.
As for myself: I find it not that easy to write about (the quality of) music. How does one put one's opinion about music in words? Almost impossible for me, I must admit. Another problem is: English is not my mother tongue, and sometimes it's hard to express myself in that language.

But I'll keep visiting this board for some time I guess. Mainly out of curiosity and, apart from the above mentioned 'problems', because sometimes I feel the urge to communicate about music.

So Don, please keep collecting the single discs and say interesting things about them on this board! :)
And Coop, keep collecting the integrals until your money has gone (if you really want to do that ;)). And please, if possible: say something valuable about all those integrals you (are going to) own. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 05:29:50 AM

Don, you seem to own a decent amount of recordings yourself. And recently you have been listening to some discs with the Leipzig chorals. I assume that you own them yourself. But apparently they aren't all that good, as your comments are showing. So, according to your own small reviews (thanks again for them!), it may have been wiser to listen to some samples before buying .... like in the good old days in the old-fashioned record shop.

So one could ask in this specific matter:
Why did you buy them?
For quality or quantity reasons?
Out of curiosity?
Did someone with good knowledge praise them?
Or were some of them budget-priced?

Or are you one of the 'chosen people' ;) who get their discs without paying, because they are professional reviewers? In that case, you can have both quantity and quality for free. Maybe it's not really fair to judge the average music lover who wants to have all those discs, too. And who also has to pay for them. 


Most of my record collection does not come from MusicWeb.  Where I have many multiple recordings of particular works, the reason was two-fold: love for the works and an inventory to do review projects for another source. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 08:59:33 AM
Listened last night to Christopher Herrick's accout of the Leipzig Chorales - definitely one of my favored versions.  Although I tend to prefer my Bach with rather sharp contours, Herrick's sumptuous performances always win my heart.  I have the original 2-cd set that appears to now be oop, but Hyperion has put all of Herrick's cycle in one big box.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 04, 2009, 12:45:26 PM
but don't you love the sound on vol. 4?

Oh yes, but I was referring to the interpretation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 04, 2009, 01:22:02 PM
Oh yes, but I was referring to the interpretation.

Understood.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 04, 2009, 04:26:01 PM
Listened last night to Christopher Herrick's accout of the Leipzig Chorales - definitely one of my favored versions.  Although I tend to prefer my Bach with rather sharp contours, Herrick's sumptuous performances always win my heart.  I have the original 2-cd set that appears to now be oop, but Hyperion has put all of Herrick's cycle in one big box.

My only exposure to Herrick was from this CD-set, one of the few recordings of Seelinck's works that are easy to find out there ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XC90NE32L._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 04, 2009, 05:09:03 PM
Listened last night to Christopher Herrick's accout of the Leipzig Chorales - definitely one of my favored versions.  Although I tend to prefer my Bach with rather sharp contours, Herrick's sumptuous performances always win my heart.  I have the original 2-cd set that appears to now be oop, but Hyperion has put all of Herrick's cycle in one big box.

Certainly, Herrick is a rewarding experience. "Spiritually uplifting" was your definition sometime ago and I agree.

Unfortunately, I have detected little interferences in the sound of some pieces. Call me obsessive, but those mistakes are totally anticlimactic.  :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 05, 2009, 03:12:11 AM
Well, I can not say, that I find Bovyers set that interesting. Being a completist in these matters, I intended to acquire the complete set, but ceased after 10 CDs.

First his style is much similar to what was common use in the 1950es-60es with a tendency to legato touch and old fashioned register changes. Add to this a generally overly rushed rather metrical pace, which fast becomes boring. And besides I do not like the sound of this new Marcussen organ, which is "white" and sharp, as if all the pipes were made of stainless steel. I have not heard the organ in question live, but the recorded sound is probably realistic, as I have heard many other contemporary Marcussen organs live, which sounded like this one. Unfortunately he uses the same organ for all the CDs.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on May 05, 2009, 04:33:59 AM
Well, I can not say, that I find Bovyers set that interesting. Being a completist in these matters, I intended to acquire the complete set, but ceased after 10 CDs.

First his style is much similar to what was common use in the 1950es-60es with a tendency to legato touch and old fashioned register changes. Add to this a generally overly rushed rather metrical pace, which fast becomes boring. And besides I do not like the sound of this new Marcussen organ, which is "white" and sharp, as if all the pipes were made of stainless steel. I have not heard the organ in question live, but the recorded sound is probably realistic, as I have heard many other contemporary Marcussen organs live, which sounded like this one. Unfortunately he uses the same organ for all the CDs.

Haven't tried as much Bowyer as Premont, but al I can say is: seconded.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 05:15:38 AM
Most of my record collection does not come from MusicWeb. Where I have many multiple recordings of particular works, the reason was two-fold: love for the works and an inventory to do review projects for another source. 

Understood.
My point is: different people have different ways of collecting music. But to me, that's no reason to downgrade the other person's habits. 'Coop' may be a 'box set collector', and IMO he's free to do so. You're more the type of collecting single discs. Nothing wrong with that, too, I'd say.
I myself do both, and I tend to look at the price, too. I'm not a very wealthy man, you see?

About the box sets of Bach's organ works: for me, the year of 2009 has been a very expensive year so far. I've collected Walcha (mono/Documents), Stockmeier (Documents), Koopman (Teldec), Preston (DG), Beekman (Lindenberg/unfortunately OOP), Vernet (Ligia) and Weinberger (CPO). I already owned Fagius (BIS/Brilliant). I didn't have enough time to listen to all the discs ;), but so far I like Beekman best. Walcha is impressive and Vernet, Weinberger, Fagius and Stockmeier seem to be very good in general, too. I also like Koopman very much, but he's the most eccentric and for that reason probably not to everyone's liking. Preston is too superficial to me, and sometimes even annoying. It feels like he's dancing on a nail bed, especially in many non-liturgical works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 05:38:02 AM
Understood.
My point is: different people have different ways of collecting music. But to me, that's no reason to downgrade the other person's habits. 'Coop' may be a 'box set collector', and IMO he's free to do so. You're more the type of collecting single discs. Nothing wrong with that, too, I'd say.
I myself do both, and I tend to look at the price, too. I'm not a very wealthy man, you see?


It turns out that we have much in common, I do both big box and individual collections.  I have the bulk of the Bach Organ Works recorded by both Marie-Claire Alain and Simon Preston in single CD's, though I would love to get Alain's third and probably her last cycle in the big box.  I also have 5 volumes of Peter Hurford's Bach Organ Works, again not a big box.  I bought the Karajan Symphony Edition just to own the Complete Bruckner Symphonies and the few Haydn Symphonies I do not already have in singles.  I go for the big box based on economic calculations, it would have cost me far more to get the Complete Bruckners and the missing Haydns on individual CD's, with individual liner-notes and CD artworks the only thing to gain ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 08:20:20 AM
It turns out that we have much in common, I do both big box and individual collections.

:)

But even if we didn't have this in common, it should be possible to communicate about music in a decent, non-downgrading way, wouldn't you agree?

Quote from: Coopmv
I have the bulk of the Bach Organ Works recorded by both Marie-Claire Alain and Simon Preston in single CD's, though I would love to get Alain's third and probably her last cycle in the big box.

I regularly enjoy two discs of Alain, one 'greatest hits' aux grand orgues Schwekedel de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat (BWV 565, 578, 593, 542 & 582), and the Trio Sonates of her last integral, played on the beautiful Schnitger organ of the Groningen Der Aa Kerk (Netherlands). Alas, I never heard this organ 'live' in concert, because right now it's been 'in restauration' for already many many years.
Alain's third integral is on my 'wanting-list', too. But it has to wait, for 'wallet reasons'. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 05, 2009, 09:00:58 AM
Just finished listening to Bryndorf's Haenssler recording of the Leipzig Chorales - an excellent interpretation that stresses the majesty and celebration of the music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 09:39:17 AM
Just finished listening to Bryndorf's Haenssler recording of the Leipzig Chorales - an excellent interpretation that stresses the majesty and celebration of the music.

And I listened this afternoon to half of the Leipzig Chorales played by Simon Preston, shortly after I 'bullied' him. I have to admit: he's doing a better job with these liturgical works, but still he wouldn't be my first choice: after a while I got a bit bored. For instance, that fine choral Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele (BWV 654) didn't really move me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 09:46:13 AM
:)

But even if we didn't have this in common, it should be possible to communicate about music in a decent, non-downgrading way, wouldn't you agree?

I regularly enjoy two discs of Alain, one 'greatest hits' aux grand orgues Schwekedel de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat (BWV 565, 578, 593, 542 & 582), and the Trio Sonates of her last integral, played on the beautiful Schnitger organ of the Groningen Der Aa Kerk (Netherlands). Alas, I never heard this organ 'live' in concert, because right now it's been 'in restauration' for already many many years.
Alain's third integral is on my 'wanting-list', too. But is has to wait, for 'wallet reasons'. ;)

Here is one of my all-time favorites ...

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 10:02:04 AM
Here is one of my all-time favorites ...
[pic of MCA's Trio Sonatas CD, recorded at l'Église Saint-Hilaire de Näfels, Glaris, Switzerland]

Oui, la Grande Dame des Orgues did record an 'awful' lot of Bach. Not only three integrals, but a lot of 'single discs', too. Quite a legacy, and a gift to all her fans. If I'm not mistaken, Olivier Vernet was one of her pupils. She plays with him (and 2 others) in the integral of Vernet, i.c. the organ arrangments of the multiple harpsichord concertos. A nice bonus to the Vernet set!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 10:13:56 AM
Oui, la Grande Dame des Orgues did record an 'awful' lot of Bach. Not only three integrals, but a lot of 'single discs', too. Quite a legacy, and a gift to all her fans. If I'm not mistaken, Olivier Vernet was one of her pupils. She plays with him (and 2 others) in the integral of Vernet, i.c. the organ arrangments of the multiple harpsichord concertos. A nice bonus to the Vernet set!
 

The English organist Margaret Phillips was one of Alain's students as well.  I just bought all her 4 volumes of Bach Organ Works on Regent ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 05, 2009, 11:55:40 AM
And I listened this afternoon to half of the Leipzig Chorales played by Simon Preston, shortly after I 'bullied' him. I have to admit: he's doing a better job with these liturgical works, but still he wouldn't be my first choice: after a while I got a bit bored. For instance, that fine choral Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele (BWV 654) didn't really move me.

Who would be your first choice or choices?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 05, 2009, 12:40:33 PM

As for Banegas, she indulges in some clipped rhythmic patterns I don't care for.

Listened for the first time to this to day (and only the second half). IMO the sound of this Trost organ is nothing but very charming, and this was originally the reason why I acquired it. And Banegas´ registrations are rather colourful I think. I only heard "clipped rhythmic patterns" in the first chorale on Nun komm, der Heiden Heilland BWV 659, some of the melisms in the cantus being a bit abrupt. Else I liked it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 05, 2009, 01:26:06 PM
Listened for the first time to this to day (and only the second half). IMO the sound of this Trost organ is nothing but very charming, and this was originally the reason why I acquired it. And Banegas´ registrations are rather colourful I think. I only heard "clipped rhythmic patterns" in the first chorale on Nun komm, der Heiden Heilland BWV 659, some of the melisms in the cantus being a bit abrupt. Else I liked it.

I think I've listened to the Banegas about five times.  Maybe no. 6 will be the winner.  I do agree about the Trost organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 05, 2009, 01:34:55 PM
On the right upper edge of the homepage there are two flags visible: the Dutch 'tricolore' and the Union Jack for the English version. It's possible to order cd's from abroad.
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/contact/index.html
For instance, they have (probably a very limited amount) of Bach/Beekman cd's left. One sampler and the volumes 4, 8 and 9.
This series is OOP, so it might be your last chance to get some (only if you're interested, of course).

Thanks to the research of Marc I have been able to acquire almost half of Bram Beekman´s Bach integral, and have used much of the past weekend to listen to him. Fortunately I got the volumes recorded in Alkmaar, Groningen and Maasluis.

What strikes me at once is Beekman´s unsensational style. He deliberately underplays any chance to show his technical powers. In this point he is rather similar to Wolfgang Stockmeier. The next is Beekman´s calm "comfortable" tempi, lending the music nice time to unfold. His registrations are rather scholary, and I certainly appreciate that he plays the entire Art of Fugue without the use of the pedal, as well as he plays the entire Passacaglia with unchanged coupled HW/RP plenum - to mention some examples. His agogics are discrete, so no great gestures here. The combination of his sparse agogics and the fact that he seems to suffer from some legato-fobia and very often articulates non legato / staccato in an almost stubborn way, gives the impression of a somewhat pedantic approach to the music, and makes me think of Daniel Chorzempa´s Bach recordings from the early 1980es, where any kind of legato (even the binding of just two notes) was "forbidden". E.g.: Beekman´s h-minor Fugue BWV 544 is for this very reason hard to stand through, and this is also true of a number of other choralfree works. And generally I find him most impressive in the choralbound works, where he seems to relax a little more. His style is close to the style of Ewald Kooiman as exemplified by Kooiman´s second integral (for Coronata). But Kooiman´s articulation was much more considered in detail and varied and therefore more expressive concerning the affect he wanted to evoke. In this context the book: "Zur Interpretation der Orgelmusik Joh.Seb.Bach´s" by Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger (Verlag Merseburger 1995) is interesting reading. Unfortunately you have to read it in German.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 05, 2009, 01:48:51 PM
Preston is too superficial to me, and sometimes even annoying. It feels like he's dancing on a nail bed, especially in many non-liturgical works.

Yes, exactly superficial. I think he skates through most of the P&F´s and T&F´s in a rather insensitive way. But as you wrote later in this thread, his Chorales are better, and I also think he captures the chamber music-like playfulness of the Triosonatas rather well. And also the Concerto arrangements stand his treatment better than the P&F´s. And the Marcussen organ in Dom zu Lübeck he uses for the Concertos is a better instrument than the Marcussen organ in Odense, which Bovyer uses.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 05, 2009, 09:59:55 PM
Thanks to the research of Marc I have been able to acquire almost half of Bram Beekman´s Bach integral, and have used much of the past weekend to listen to him. Fortunately I got the volumes recorded in Alkmaar, Groningen and Maasluis.

What strikes me at once is Beekman´s unsensational style. He deliberately underplays any chance to show his technical powers. In this point he is rather similar to Wolfgang Stockmeier. The next is Beekman´s calm "comfortable" tempi, lending the music nice time to unfold. His registrations are rather scholary, and I certainly appreciate that he plays the entire Art of Fugue without the use of the pedal, as well as he plays the entire Passacaglia with unchanged coupled HW/RP plenum - to mention some examples. His agogics are discrete, so no great gestures here. The combination of his sparse agogics and the fact that he seems to suffer from some legato-fobia and very often articulates non legato / staccato in an almost stubborn way, gives the impression of a somewhat pedantic approach to the music, and makes me think of Daniel Chorzempa´s Bach recordings from the early 1980es, where any kind of legato (even the binding of just two notes) was "forbidden". E.g.: Beekman´s h-minor Fugue BWV 544 is for this very reason hard to stand through, and this is also true of a number of other choralfree works. And generally I find him most impressive in the choralbound works, where he seems to relax a little more. His style is close to the style of Ewald Kooiman as exemplified by Kooiman´s second integral (for Coronata). But Kooiman´s articulation was much more considered in detail and varied and therefore more expressive concerning the affect he wanted to evoke. In this context the book: "Zur Interpretation der Orgelmusik Joh.Seb.Bach´s" by Kooiman and Gerhard Weinberger (Verlag Merseburger 1995) is interesting reading. Unfortunately you have to read it in German.

Premont, thanks for this review of Beekman! I share your opinion that he's more impressive in the liturgical works.
About Kooiman: I have been listening with great pleasure to his Kellner-interpretations, part of the Thüringen-organ series. But I fear his Bach integrals are OOP.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2009, 05:52:53 AM
Who would be your first choice or choices?

Dear Don, would you mind waiting for the 'answer' for a while?
My short furlough is over, and I'm beginning with a new job, which is going to take a lot of my time in the near months. So there won't be much time left for thorough listening, I'm afraid.
I've bought far too much organ cd's the last four months, and I've only listened to them in a more or less 'cut up' way (no systematic hearing, so to speak). In general, I already mentioned something about my preferences recently.

I will pick some organists though, and listen to their Leipzig Chorales, and try to be disciplined enough to take some notes. If such a 'review' is really worthwhile .... dunno. I don't know anything about the technical aspects of organ playing, including the registration part. Do I hear 'flauto dolce'/'vox humana'/'bassoon'/'bourdon' (?), etcetera.

BTW: to learn something more about the instrument, I might be visiting an organ building company next saturday: Mense Ruiter in Zuidwolde, province of Groningen, Netherlands. It's Orgeldag in the nothern regions of the Netherlands, so everyone is free to visit. Including free visiting of a lot of churches with historic organs. I've 'planned' to visit the organ of the Hervormde Kerk at Noordwolde, (province of Groningen again). It was built around 1658/1659 by Hendrick Huis (alterations in 1802 and 1833 by resp. Hermann Freytag & Nicolaas Anthonie Lohman), and restored by Mense Ruiter in 2007.

Here's a pic of the Huis-organ:

(http://www.hetorgel.nl/image/noordwolde-hk.jpg)

I guess my saturday will be ..... fine. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 06, 2009, 07:44:39 AM
I hadn't listened to Kevin Bowyer's account of the Leipzig Chorales for a few years, and my memories were not favorable.  However, he sounded mighty fine last night, so I take back anything negative I said about his Bach on the board.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 06, 2009, 11:38:48 AM
I guess my saturday will be ..... fine. :)


There you got a good idea. I wish you a nice and instructive day. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 06, 2009, 12:46:33 PM
I hadn't listened to Kevin Bowyer's account of the Leipzig Chorales for a few years, and my memories were not favorable.  However, he sounded mighty fine last night, so I take back anything negative I said about his Bach on the board.

Do not know his Leipzig Chorales, they may be better, but I know many other vol.s of his Bach set e.g. Art of Fugue, Clavierübung III, the Toccatas an a large part of the P&F´s, and I am not in the least impressed by his superficial Bach on speed style, and I would without hesitation rank him among the undermost 10%. Do you actually recommend his Leipzig Chorales?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on May 06, 2009, 04:50:28 PM
Do not know his Leipzig Chorales, they may be better, but I know many other vol.s of his Bach set e.g. Art of Fugue, Clavierübung III, the Toccatas an a large part of the P&F´s, and I am not in the least impressed by his superficial Bach on speed style, and I would without hesitation rank him among the undermost 10%. Do you actually recommend his Leipzig Chorales?

Let's not go whole-hog here.  My favorable reaction had much to do with my traditional thinking that Bowyer's Bach sucked.  He's far from being one of my favored artists, but I've definitely heard worse - Murray comes to mind.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 05:13:15 PM
Let's not go whole-hog here.  My favorable reaction had much to do with my traditional thinking that Bowyer's Bach sucked.  He's far from being one of my favored artists, but I've definitely heard worse - Murray comes to mind.

Michael Murray is probably the worst organist in recording.  His fellow American organ Daniel Chorzempa is way better. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2009, 11:27:52 AM
I guess my saturday will be ..... fine. :)

There you got a good idea. I wish you a nice and instructive day. :)

Yes, it was a nice and instructive day. Visited two churches (with the Lohman organ in Zuidwolde [1817/1836] & the Huisz organ [1658/1659] in Noordwolde) and the studio of organ builder Mense Ruiter. What a delicate job that is. Unfortunately, my knowledge & understanding of technics & physics has always been rather poor. But I also brought a friend of mine and he's much more interested in the technical part of any thing. Which meant he had a great time, too. :)
When we entered the village church in Noordwolde, an amateur organist - who played rather well - was playing Buxtehude's D minor Passacaglia BuxWV 161, and he was obviously very very pleased with the instrument.

I myself wasn't on any player's list, so I did not bring any music. Too bad, because in Zuidwolde I had the chance to play something. This organ wasn't officially part of the organ day, because it's being restored right now by Mense Ruiter.
Anyway: I played the first bars of Mozart's KV 545 on the yellow ivory keys of this Lohman organ (it sounded great! :)), and a boogie woogie on an old small chamber pipe organ at the builder's workshop. Especially the latter recital was greeted with great enthousiasm by the other visitors. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 02, 2009, 06:13:37 AM
During the weekend I was listening to some excerpts of the Stockmeier’s recordings.

I just heard 30 sec. or so in every piece, but I was rather impressed about his sobriety and straightforward style.  

Nice sound, too.

Has anyone any opinion about him?

 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on June 02, 2009, 06:51:31 AM
During the weekend I was listening to some excerpts of the Stockmeier’s recordings.

... I was rather impressed about his sobriety and straightforward style.  

Has anyone any opinion about him?

Sober and straightforward style is an apt description. His efforts may not be the result of the latest historical information, and some will find his playing underarticulated. But even leaving HIP considerations aside he is a rather self effacing artist, letting the music speak for itself, avoiding any kind of excesses a la Koopman and the likes. Stockmeier´s integrale is available for 22 Euro´s on DOC at JPC. The AoF and the Neumeister chorales are not included, but else it is one of the most complete sets available.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 02, 2009, 07:18:43 AM
... he is a rather self effacing artist, letting the music speak for itself, avoiding any kind of excesses a la Koopman and the likes.

That was exactly my impression. I'm the Koopman's alter ego  ;), but you are right: as an organist he can be unbearable sometimes.

Stockmeier´s integrale is available for 22 Euro´s on DOC at JPC. The AoF and the Neumeister chorales are not included, but else it is one of the most complete sets available.

 What a great store is JPC!  ;D


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: robnewman on June 02, 2009, 01:48:20 PM
Antonio Vivaldi - Double Concerto Op.7 No. 5
Transcription for Solo Organ - (Leipzig c. 1741)
Johann Sebastian Bach
BWV 594
(Marie Claire Alain - Organist)

One of those unique pieces. Not just because it's extraordinary music by Antonio Vivaldi and an equally extraordinary transcription for solo organ by JS Bach but because the organist here is herself one of the most talented, Marie Claire Alain. Between Vivaldi and Bach everything musical seems possible.  :)


http://www.mediafire.com/?5ihjqwwwjmm

/












Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 03, 2009, 11:43:15 AM
Sober and straightforward style is an apt description. His efforts may not be the result of the latest historical information, and some will find his playing underarticulated. But even leaving HIP considerations aside he is a rather self effacing artist, letting the music speak for itself, avoiding any kind of excesses a la Koopman and the likes.

Poor Ton! Gosh Premont, you're harsh! ;D

But indeed, Stockmeier is, whatever edition you buy, well worth his money. Sometimes maybe too much legato for my likings, but he's an honest no-nonsense interpreter, if I may say so. Also, there's this 'bonus' in the kinda 'crackling' sound of the Kreienbrink organs, which I'm rather attracted to.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on June 03, 2009, 01:36:49 PM
But indeed, Stockmeier is, whatever edition you buy, well worth his money. Sometimes maybe too much legato for my likings, but he's an honest no-nonsense interpreter, if I may say so. Also, there's this 'bonus' in the kinda 'crackling' sound of the Kreienbrink organs, which I'm rather attracted to.

Yes, as I implied above, his style is a bit "oldfashioned". But nice that you draw attention to the Kreienbrink organs. Even if they are modern neo-baroque organs, they have got an appealing crisp sound, which in my opinion is well suited for Bach. An he uses maybe 15 different organs all in all. One may suspect Kreienbrink having sponsored the recordings. I shall add, that the DOC release has got the better sound.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on June 03, 2009, 04:31:29 PM
His was my first set... the faux-linen covered box from Music & Arts (or some such label). Good stuff, indeed.

My 22-CD Weinberger set is still in its cellophane after it arrived from MDT over a month ago.  I started listening to my stereo Helmut Walcha set a few weeks ago but have managed to get to only CD2.  I like Helmut Walcha and really do not give a damn as to what some people think ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: FideLeo on June 04, 2009, 12:07:50 AM
I like Helmut Walcha and really do not give a damn as to what some people think ...

There's nothing wrong with being a Walcha fan.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 04, 2009, 09:39:58 AM
There's nothing wrong with being a Walcha fan.  ;)

Seconded.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on June 04, 2009, 01:39:25 PM
Seconded.

Thirded.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 15, 2009, 10:44:12 AM
I've been mesmerized by Bach's organ for about 6 months now, and it's been a dazzling experience so far.
But summer is on its way, and maybe I need to cool down a bit.

A good choice for a cold shower ;) has been a couple of volumes of the Michel Chapuis integral. He's fast, sometimes a bit too wild I think, without the enthousiasm and expressiveness of the adolescent Koopman (IMHO), and unfortunately the 2 volumes I listened to (5 & 14) were very shrill in recording sound (recordings around 1970).

Now I listen to Chapuis, almost on a daily basis, when I'm travelling towards work. He keeps me awake! And because of the lesser quality of my disc-man incl. headphones (rather 'woolly' sound) the sharpness is almost inaudible.
The same goes for the Third Clavierübung, performed by Kevin Bowyer. Also a bit too sharp for my taste, but thanks to my modest travelling equipment I'm still able to enjoy it!

Somehow I seem to manage to make all 'my' discs worthwhile! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on June 15, 2009, 05:16:28 PM
My 22-CD Weinberger set is still in its cellophane, which I got from MDT at a great price some two months ago before the worthless dollar took a tumble against the pound.   >:(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on June 16, 2009, 12:26:22 PM
A good choice for a cold shower ;) has been a couple of volumes of the Michel Chapuis integral. He's fast, sometimes a bit too wild I think, without the enthousiasm and expressiveness of the adolescent Koopman (IMHO), and unfortunately the 2 volumes I listened to (5 & 14) were very shrill in recording sound (recordings around 1970).

There are no volume indications in my complete Chapuis set, but I suppose you are listening to the second of the CDs recorded on the Arp Schnitger organ in Zwolle (with BWV 531, 533, 536, 537, 542, 544, 549 and 550) and the second CD rcorded on the P G Andersen organ, Sct. Bendts Kirke, Ringsted (with some Kirnberger Chorales and a few pieces without BWV).

I think the Zwolle organ may seem shrill because it is tuned in Hohe Chorton and because it has got IIRC some sharp mixtures.

Many Danish built organs from the second half of the 2000th century have got a rather sharp incisive sound quality. The ideal was to create an almost neutral instrument with the greatest possible clarity of sound, meant to be ideal for baroque polyphony. This led to a kind of standard instrument with almost clinical properties and very little individual character. Marcussen was maybe the greatest sinner (and P G Andersen who got his education by Marcussen), but even Metzler in Schweiz built organs of this kind (e.g. the by P G Andersen designed Metzler organ in the Cathedral of Geneva). Having heard the Ringsted organ and many other Marcussen organs as well as the Geneva organ on location, I think that the organs are partly to be blamed for the sharp sound of the recordings.

As to Chapuis he was never my cup of tea. Excentrical, fast and often sloppy, often using strange and almost ugly registrations and changing registrations absurdly often and without stylistical arguments.




Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on June 16, 2009, 07:37:09 PM
[....] I think that the organs are partly to be blamed for the sharp sound of the recordings.

Quite possible. On the other hand: I do have Zwolle recordings that are far more better in sound.

Quote from: premont
As to Chapuis he was never my cup of tea. Excentrical, fast and often sloppy, often using strange and almost ugly registrations and changing registrations absurdly often and without stylistical arguments.

I'll take a note of that.
This I 'discovered' myself: after some more listening in the train, I find his choral recordings of volume 14 very shallow. No spiritual involvement to be heard, unfortunately.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 26, 2009, 10:53:29 AM
What about André Isoir?

Today I listened to his two The Great Toccatas discs, and I certainly prefer the first one, played in 1975 on the Ahrend organ of the Lambertikirche in Aurich, Germany. I also like the Ahrend organ sound more than that of the Grenzing organ in Saint-Cyprién (Dordogne, France), where the latter was recorded in 1993.

As far as the interpretations are concerned: Isoir seems more innerly involved and more at ease with the pieces in the seventies recording. Especially BWV 565 and 542 are really a joy to listen to! There might be a certain softness in his approach, but after listening to (f.i.) George Ritchie it was some kind of a 'relief' .... well, apparently there's a Bach for each and every mood. :)
(The track index on my 1975 Isoir copy isn't correct though: one should reverse BWV 540 & 538!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on July 29, 2009, 12:02:47 PM
BUMPING this thread again and again. :D

No, seriously, I'm in heaven after attending a recital of Jacques van Oortmerssen, playing the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
Buxtehude, Scheidemann, Mendelssohn, J.L. Krebs, and the finishing touch was .... the eternal Pasacaglia & Thema Fugatum in C minor, BWV 582.

Listening to organ music at home, or whilst travelling (with headphones) is all very nice, but listening to an organ like this in real life is .... (have a guess).

Jürgen Ahrend did a magnificent job in the eighties with restoring this devaluated instrument!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 09:48:02 AM
BUMPIN' BUMPIN' BUMPIN',
keep them organs movin' ....

Had a (very) good afternoon, again at the Martinikerk. Sietze de Vries was talking about and showing off both organs. At first the very pretty little chorus organ, built appr. 1742 by Jean-Baptiste Le Picard.

And, of course, the grand organ that was restored in the eighties by Ahrend.

After his final improvisations, a few of us were allowed to climb the small stairs and visit the holy shrine. Among them member Marc. :P
Very nice and friendly guy, Sietze de Vries, who played some marvellous improvisations and gave the visitors the entire organ with Bach's Toccata, Adagio & Fugue in C Major, BWV 564.

And now I'm gonna take a listen to Ewald Kooiman, Bach's Organ Mass. Yummy in advance ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 09:55:16 AM
Just played this 2-CD set by Lionel Rogg, an excellent set ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51n6OxgMs0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 12:19:03 PM
Just played this 2-CD set by Lionel Rogg, an excellent set ...
[image of Rogg's Kunst der Fuge & Vivaldi Concertos / EMI]

Part of the third integral?
EMI should finally issue this on CD.

I mean: come on, the man is a rewarded Bach interpreter.
He recorded three (more or less) integrals.
AFAIK, his first (Oryx) and third (EMI) were never released on Compact Disc, and his second (Harmonia Mundi) is officially OOP.
I have an EMI sampler (issued january 2009) and think it's quite good, but in most cases, when I read reviews about Rogg, his HM recordings are praised.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 12:24:22 PM
Just played this 2-CD set by Lionel Rogg, an excellent set ...
[image of Rogg's Kunst der Fuge & Vivaldi Concertos / EMI]

Part of the third integral?
EMI should finally issue this on CD.

I mean: come on, the man is a rewarded Bach interpreter.
He recorded three (more or less) integrals.
AFAIK, his first (Oryx) and third (EMI) were never released on Compact Disc, and his second (Harmonia Mundi) is officially OOP.
I have an EMI sampler (issued january 2009) and think it's quite good, but in most cases, when I read reviews about Rogg, his HM recordings are praised.

Here is the other 2-CD set I got.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PZgViaDKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

For years, Rogg's only other CD I have is the following CD, though I also have an 18-LP set on EMI Electrola, some German pressings I bought 25 years ago ...



Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 12:36:55 PM
Here is the other 2-CD set I got.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PZgViaDKL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yep. That's the one I've got, too .... and even enjoy :).

Quote from: Coopmv
For years, Rogg's only other CD I have is the following CD, though I also have an 18-LP set on EMI Electrola, some German pressings I bought 25 years ago ...
[LP box cover EMI/Angel]

EMI: BURN THEM .... TO CD'S!!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Yep. That's the one I've got, too .... and even enjoy :).

EMI: BURN THEM .... TO CD'S!!

I hear you.  I have digitized two open-reel tapes to hard-drive with quite satisfactory results.  But digitizing LP's to hard-drive is a very different matter since the clicks and pops take a bit of work to remove unless this process can be auotmated ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 01:04:21 PM
I hear you.  I have digitized two open-reel tapes to hard-drive with quite satisfactory results. But digitizing LP's to hard-drive is a very different matter since the clicks and pops take a bit of work to remove unless this process can be auotmated ...

Relax Coop. I meant to say that EMI should burn them (the mastertapes, that is)! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 01:09:13 PM
Relax Coop. I meant to say that EMI should burn them (the mastertapes, that is)! :)
 

I have always wondered where all the tracks on the 18-LP set released by Electrola have gone.  BTW, was Electrola an EMI subsidiary?  I swear I have seen the name popped up in recent years as a separate company.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 01, 2009, 01:16:00 PM
I have always wondered where all the tracks on the 18-LP set released by Electrola have gone. 

I cannot answer this.

Quote from: Coopmv
BTW, was Electrola an EMI subsidiary?  I swear I have seen the name popped up in recent years as a separate company.

The EMI Electrola GmbH was founded 1972, but the history of name started 47 years before.

The Gramophone Company founded the Electrola GmbH in 1925 in Berlin. In 1931 Electrola started a Joint Venture with the Carl Lindström AG. In the same year the parent companies - Gramophone Company and Columbia Gramophone Company - merged into the Electric & Musical Industries Ltd. (EMI). In 1952 the two german EMI subsidiaries moved to Cologne and twenty years later the Carl Lindström AG merged with Electrola GmbH into the EMI Electrola GmbH.

2002 was a year of reorganisation within the german EMI companies. The EMI Electrola GmbH merged with the Virgin Schallplatten GmbH and formed EMI Music Germany GmbH & Co.

Source: http://www.discogs.com/label/EMI+Electrola

I didn't check the entire discopgraphy, but they do have Imca Marina! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 01:20:25 PM
I cannot answer this.

The EMI Electrola GmbH was founded 1972, but the history of name started 47 years before.

The Gramophone Company founded the Electrola GmbH in 1925 in Berlin. In 1931 Electrola started a Joint Venture with the Carl Lindström AG. In the same year the parent companies - Gramophone Company and Columbia Gramophone Company - merged into the Electric & Musical Industries Ltd. (EMI). In 1952 the two german EMI subsidiaries moved to Cologne and twenty years later the Carl Lindström AG merged with Electrola GmbH into the EMI Electrola GmbH.

2002 was a year of reorganisation within the german EMI companies. The EMI Electrola GmbH merged with the Virgin Schallplatten GmbH and formed EMI Music Germany GmbH & Co.

Source: http://www.discogs.com/label/EMI+Electrola

I didn't check the entire discopgraphy, but they do have Imca Marina! ;D

Thanks Marc.  I think this Rogg's Bach Organ Works set is not the only EMI Electrola LP-sets I have that I have never seen released on CD.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on August 02, 2009, 01:58:02 AM
BUMPING this thread again and again. :D

No, seriously, I'm in heaven after attending a recital of Jacques van Oortmerssen, playing the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
Buxtehude, Scheidemann, Mendelssohn, J.L. Krebs, and the finishing touch was .... the eternal Pasacaglia & Thema Fugatum in C minor, BWV 582.

Listening to organ music at home, or whilst travelling (with headphones) is all very nice, but listening to an organ like this in real life is .... (have a guess).

Jürgen Ahrend did a magnificent job in the eighties with restoring this devaluated instrument!

Ooooh wow! :)

This is a (very) strong reminder that I really should do this more often myself. I mean - when living in the Netherlands & loving organ music - listening to "our"  ;) beautiful organs live is practically mandatory! :o

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2009, 03:28:48 AM
Ooooh wow! :)

This is a (very) strong reminder that I really should do this more often myself. I mean - when living in the Netherlands & loving organ music - listening to "our"  ;) beautiful organs live is practically mandatory! :o

To tell you the truth: I'm lazy with this myself, too. Biking to the Martinikerk is nothing really, considering the fact that I live in Groningen. But I only rarely do it (pfui mich!). On the other hand: I'm just starting! 2009 is the year of my organ (re)discovery.
If the upcoming week is going according to plan, I'll be at the Martini again on wednesday evening. Belgian organist Bernard Foccroulle will give a recital, with (a.o.) works of Schlick, Weckmann, Buxtehude and .... Bach.
 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 04:16:35 AM
To tell you the truth: I'm lazy with this myself, too. Biking to the Martinikerk is nothing really, considering the fact that I live in Groningen. But I only rarely do it (pfui mich!). On the other hand: I'm just starting! 2009 is the year of my organ (re)discovery.
If the upcoming week is going according to plan, I'll be at the Martini again on wednesday evening. Belgian organist Bernard Foccroulle will give a recital, with (a.o.) works of Schlick, Weckmann, Buxtehude and .... Bach.
 
 

You lucky Dutch.  We Americans only have mainly second-rate organists.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 07:57:23 AM
 

You lucky Dutch.  We Americans only have mainly second-rate organists.

That is not completely right, Coop. Just these days –in Chile!- I have been listening to recordings by George Ritchie, Joan Lippincott, Christa Rakich (although I don’t know if she was born in the United States, but teaches and plays there). All of them excellent in Bach. Probably, you are a little bit lazy too, my friend.  ;D

P.S.: Anyway, those Dutchmen are incredibly lucky guys.  ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2009, 10:09:24 AM
You lucky Dutch.  We Americans only have mainly second-rate organists.

That is not completely right, Coop. Just these days –in Chile!- I have been listening to recordings by George Ritchie, Joan Lippincott, Christa Rakich (although I don’t know if she was born in the United States, but teaches and plays there). All of them excellent in Bach. Probably, you are a little bit lazy too, my friend. ;D

P.S.: Anyway, those Dutchmen are incredibly lucky guys.  ;)

Coop wrote: mainly. :P
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....
I don't know that many American organisats and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't judge them 'all', but E. Power Biggs (Rest In Peace), Daniel Chorzempa (now living in Italy) and George Ritchie were/are very skilled, IMHO. From what I've heard, I'm not particularly fond of Virgil Fox, though he did a nice job in trying to make this instrument more popular with his 'Heavy Organ' concerts.

And yes, we are very lucky people in Dutch-land. But not everyone here seems to realize that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on August 02, 2009, 10:21:55 AM
Coop wrote: mainly. :P
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....

Well put.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 10:22:36 AM
Coop wrote: mainly.
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....
I don't know that many American organisats and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't judge them 'all', but E. Power Biggs (Rest In Peace), Daniel Chorzempa (now living in Italy) and George Ritchie were/are very skilled, IMHO. From what I've heard, I'm not particularly fond of Virgil Fox, though he did a nice job in trying to make this instrument more popular with his 'Heavy Organ' concerts.

And yes, we are very lucky people in Dutch-land. But not everyone here seems to realize that.

I said "mainly" and referred only to living American organists.  I like Chorzempa and he is the exception.  BTW, I have most of his recordings.  Lets give credit where credit is due.  I am very discriminating as a collector and have no desire to collect the complete Bach Organ Works by 50 different organists.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 10:28:22 AM
Coop wrote: mainly.

Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 10:33:34 AM
I am very discriminating as a collector and have no desire to collect the complete Bach Organ Works by 50 different organists.

Especially when they have not been recorded on a "major label", I think.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on August 02, 2009, 10:35:31 AM
Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm



That was a wonderful sample; I'll have to get me some of that.  I've had a soft spot for the Loft label for many years.  Some folks think that these "organ labels" are just for people interested in organs, but I've found some very compelling performances.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on August 02, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
What about André Isoir?

Today I listened to his two The Great Toccatas discs, and I certainly prefer the first one, played in 1975 on the Ahrend organ of the Lambertikirche in Aurich, Germany. I also like the Ahrend organ sound more than that of the Grenzing organ in Saint-Cyprién (Dordogne, France), where the latter was recorded in 1993.

As far as the interpretations are concerned: Isoir seems more innerly involved and more at ease with the pieces in the seventies recording. Especially BWV 565 and 542 are really a joy to listen to! There might be a certain softness in his approach, but after listening to (f.i.) George Ritchie it was some kind of a 'relief' .... well, apparently there's a Bach for each and every mood. :)
(The track index on my 1975 Isoir copy isn't correct though: one should reverse BWV 540 & 538!)

Agree completely on Isoir´s two Bach Toccata CDs. Isoir has lost some of his earlier "bite". And the Ahrend organ is a neo-baroque organ of the usual kind, which we are used to listen to in Bach (like Metzler and Marcussen), but the Grenzing organ is an individual type, which IMO is unsuited for baroque music. As to Ritchie I have listened to the lions share of his 11 CD "integral" yesterday and to day (only had listened to this once earlier about three years ago), and I am impressed by his simple registrations and scholary articulation (in this respect - only this - much the same approach as Kooiman and Beekman), and he also reminds me a lot of Hans Fagius with his rather fast tempi and a hint of nervous energy. But I am  not overwhelmed by the mostly newly built American organs Ritchie uses, which I find unsensational to say the least - compared to similar European organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on August 02, 2009, 02:02:44 PM
No, seriously, I'm in heaven after attending a recital of Jacques van Oortmerssen, playing the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
Buxtehude, Scheidemann, Mendelssohn, J.L. Krebs, and the finishing touch was .... the eternal Pasacaglia & Thema Fugatum in C minor, BWV 582.

As you may expect you succeed in making me rather envious. But fortunately I have a good forum friend in Holland, who is very kind and keeps me ájour as to Dutch organ playing. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on August 02, 2009, 02:10:53 PM
Part of the third integral?

AoF and this recording of the Concerto-arrangements were not part of the third integral.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2009, 02:18:16 PM
Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

Yes, we sort of do, in a way, don't we? ;)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand
BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm

Why didn't they credit Papageno on the cd-sleeve? ;D
Nice sample of the sonata, but I missed some involved playfulness in Rakich' organ playing. The vividness is now mainly created by the Glockenspiel. But the entire 2-cd has an interesting program, no doubt.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 02, 2009, 02:29:30 PM
[....]
As to Ritchie I have listened to the lions share of his 11 CD "integral" yesterday and to day (only had listened to this once earlier about three years ago), and I am impressed by his simple registrations and scholary articulation (in this respect - only this - much the same approach as Kooiman and Beekman), and he also reminds me a lot of Hans Fagius with his rather fast tempi and a hint of nervous energy. But I am not overwhelmed by the mostly newly built American organs Ritchie uses, which I find unsensational to say the least - compared to similar European organs.

I didn't mean to be negative about Ritchie. I just wanted to give some idea about the contrast of playing between him and Isoir, with Ritchie giving a more heavier approach. I like them both, though. Funny you mention the names of Kooiman et al. Kooiman & Beekman were the first who came to my mind when I recently 'discovered' Ritchie and listened to some of his recordings.
Fagius has been mentioned some times before in this thread. As I've stated before, it's difficult to disappoint me in this oeuvre :), but I think he is slightly underrated. He got some negative reviews in NL after the release of the Brilliant Bach collection in 2000, but IMHO they did not do him justice. But Dutch music reviewers can be rather chauvinistic. Which, when organ playing is concerned, is imaginable. These chauvinistic elements can be found at any place around the world, btw (Gramophone!).

As you may expect you succeed in making me rather envious. But fortunately I have a good forum friend in Holland, who is very kind and keeps me ájour as to Dutch organ playing. :)

:P
You're welcome!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 08, 2009, 12:13:38 PM
This interesting story was posted in the Bach's Bungalow thread, about the Otto Winter vs Miklós Spányi 'conspiracy':

Interesting information in the Amazon com forum from a poster "Wachovia":
"Otto Winter is not the actual organist!
The real organist is MIKLOS SPANYI of Hungary.
He made the recording in 1987 and sold it to a german record producer. That record producer sold Spanyi's recording to several labels. Such as Point, Madacy, etc.
Some cds say Otto Winter at a Silbermann Organ.
Inactuality it is Miklos Spanyi at the Calvary Chuch in Szombathely, Hungary. The organ was built by the Eule Orgelbou of Germany.
Mr. Spanyi himself emailed this information to me.
Otto Winter is not an organist at all."


Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ADCES8TQLRK34

This information is confirmed on this site:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Spanyi.htm
(With Spányi himself as one of the contributors.)
 
[Spanyi's Hungaroton recordings] were issued on CD by quite many low price labels, partly with Miklós Spányi name, partly with the false name 'Otto Winter' (Hungaroton sold the materials to someone who made with it what he wanted...). Unfortunately some labels added two pieces Miklós Spányi has not recorded or not this way:
-Prelude & Fugue in E flat major, BWV 552: Miklós Spányi has never recorded it (unfortunately... he still hopes to do it one day)
-Toccata & Fugue in D minor, BWV 565: Miklós Spányi has recorded it as part of the 'Hungaroton' material but some of 'his' CD's contain it in a 'false' form, played by someone else. However, some publications of the same CD's contain his genuine recording of the piece. His version is about 8:30, recordings considerably longer that this are consequently played by someone else. Also the pitch of my recording is a1=415 Hz, the 'false' versions are all in modern, high pitch. Some labels added 'on Silbermann organ' which isn't true: the instrument in question was a small organ in Szombathely, Hungary, built in 1986 by Eule, Germany, well in Silbermann's style.


Right now I'm listening to the Dorian Toccata, played by Spányi.
In short: his performance may not be of the 'digging deep' kind, it's however very vivid and playful, IMO. Indeed there's this specific 'granular' Silbermann sound of the Eule organ. The 2-cd I recently purchased is marketed by a label called Forum, and it contains the 'Point-label' recordings, with the genuine BWV 565 performance (sigh of relief ;)).

[LATE EDIT:
The 2-cd track list is here (forget about the Silbermann mentioning):
http://www.downeden.com/J-S-Bach-Famous-Organ-Works-Miklos-Spanyi-Silbermann-Organ_71035.html]

About the organist: Spányi is also an enthousiastic player of the harpsichord, clavichord and the tangent piano. Let's forget about this Otto Winter, let's focus on Miklós Spányi.

Has anyone else heard some Bach recordings of him? And if so: what's your opinion?

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on August 08, 2009, 01:15:17 PM
...Unfortunately some labels added two pieces Miklós Spányi has not recorded or not this way:
-Prelude & Fugue in E flat major, BWV 552: Miklós Spányi has never recorded it (unfortunately... he still hopes to do it one day)
-Toccata & Fugue in D minor, BWV 565: Miklós Spányi has recorded it as part of the 'Hungaroton' material but some of 'his' CD's contain it in a 'false' form, played by someone else. However, some publications of the same CD's contain his genuine recording of the piece. His version is about 8:30, recordings considerably longer that this are consequently played by someone else. Also the pitch of my recording is a1=415 Hz, the 'false' versions are all in modern, high pitch.

Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names, most of which I suspect to be the Spanyi recordings. Your link to the Spanyi list and the reference to the pitch and playing time will turn very helpful in the process of clearing things up. In the Amado 40 CD box there are two versions of BWV 565, the one indicated to be by Spanyi, the other by Winter. Confusion, yes, but your post tells me that one of them probably is by Spanyi - but which one - well probably the best one, as indicated on the sleeve. I have found a recording of BWV 565 indicated to be by Eberhard Kraus and which is almost similar to the Winter recording in this box, maybe some editing has taken place, and I much suspect that Kraus is the real organist for this recording. I shall look further into this later.

I agree on your words about Spanyi´s Dorian. Vivid and playful, and rather energetic, - a middle of the road performance I think.

It is late now, I am going to email you to morrow about Rübsam, Wiersma 2 & 7 et.c. I must say now, that Wiersma convinced me from the first listen, and he continues to convince me more and more, the more I listen to him.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 08, 2009, 11:49:52 PM
Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names, most of which I suspect to be the Spanyi recordings. Your link to the Spanyi list and the reference to the pitch and playing time will turn very helpful in the process of clearing things up. In the Amado 40 CD box there are two versions of BWV 565, the one indicated to be by Spanyi, the other by Winter. Confusion, yes, but your post tells me that one of them probably is by Spanyi - but which one - well probably the best one, as indicated on the sleeve. I have found a recording of BWV 565 indicated to be by Eberhard Kraus and which is almost similar to the Winter recording in this box, maybe some editing has taken place, and I much suspect that Kraus is the real organist for this recording. I shall look further into this later.

Well, maybe this turns out to be a life long investigation ;D, because in the beginning of the nineties the cd world was 'poisoned' by tons of ghost performances, issued by minor labels.

Quote from: premont
I agree on your words about Spanyi´s Dorian. Vivid and playful, and rather energetic, - a middle of the road performance I think.

Concerning and confirming our common opinion about Spányi: indeed, nice to listen to, but these aren't performances that will sink in for eternity.

Quote from: premont
It is late now, I am going to email you to morrow about Rübsam, Wiersma 2 & 7 et.c. I must say now, that Wiersma convinced me from the first listen, and he continues to convince me more and more, the more I listen to him.

Concerning your opinion about Piet Wiersma (or any other Bach organist): please do not hesitate to post them in this thread, too. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on August 09, 2009, 11:17:34 AM
Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names [....]

Well, we know now that Spányi isn't a strange name at all. :)
Otto Winter is indeed a misleading tricky name, probably a combination of Helmut Winter and Hans Otto. In earlier years, suspect budget labels wanted to fool the not-really-informed-classical-music-buyers with these kind of quasi-familiar names. Conductors like Leonard Maag conducting some Festival Orchestra, or something like that.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on August 09, 2009, 01:40:35 PM
Otto Winter is indeed a misleading tricky name, probably a combination of Helmut Winter and Hans Otto.

There was a not very prominent oboíst in W Germany (Frankfurt am Main or Köln based, I think) in the 1950es and 1960es named Otto Winter. He recorded some baroque music with Mainzer Kammerorchester / Günter Kehr. Perhaps he even played third oboe in Kehr´s recording of the First Brandenburg concerto for Vox 1958.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 01, 2009, 05:52:02 AM
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

P.S.: I needed to add the second picture.  ;D

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on September 02, 2009, 02:17:35 AM
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

Thanks for the info!
Very good news. I only have a recent recording of him on the Groningen Martini organ, which is a fine one. I'll keep this reissue in mind!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on September 02, 2009, 02:49:37 AM
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.


Thanks for the information about this long waited rerelease. Even if I own about 45 % of the original release, I always wanted to hear the rest of the set.
    
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on September 05, 2009, 04:23:36 PM
P.S.: I needed to add the second picture.  ;D

Well now that I know that small Mongolian community approves I must have that album!!!  :P

Seriously though, that looks like a set worth considering.  Doesn't look available in the States yet, though...  :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 05, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
... that looks like a set worth considering.  Doesn't look available in the States yet, though...  :-\

Don't worry, Sorin. It's the situation even in Europe yet:

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2009, 10:32:32 AM
Helmut Walchas Art of Fugue

Hi, Premont.

How many times recorded Walcha the AoF? I have been listening his mono set on Documents and I am very impressed with him.

My apologies to the lovers of the historical recordings, but for the first time in my life I have enjoyed some recording of the forties (1947). But that set does'n include the AoF. Are there more than one version?

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on September 19, 2009, 01:10:43 PM
How many times recorded Walcha the AoF? ...  Are there more than one version?

Unfortunately he only got the interest of the AoF rather late in his career, when he was in his late 40´es, and he recorded it only once. This was in 1956 for Archiv on the Hagbeer/FC Schnitger organ in Sct.Laurents Church in Alkmaar, NL. I think he realised, that he could not improve upon this recording. Also the recorded sound is good for its age, even if it was said, that this was DG´s first stereo recording ever. The engineer was the famous Erich Thiesenhaus. BTW Walcha often performed the work in the years to come, - my elder sister heard him perform it in München about 1967, and she was certainly impressed. The AoF is contained in his Stereo Bach integral, this is the reason why this set occupies 12 CDs, as opposed to the 10 CDs of the Mono integral. DG Archive has also released the AoF separately on two CDs in an improved mastering. Link to this:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Die-Kunst-der-Fuge-BWV-1080/hnum/8784091

Another firm (Idis) has also released his AoF on two CDs, but - as far as I been told - the sound of this release is somewhat distorted, since probably the LP Archiv rerelease from the late 1970´es was used as source material, and this set is unfortunately concerning the AoF (and rather unusual for Archiv) distorted in the loud passages. So avoid the Idis and get the Archiv release, if you do not acquire the entire Archiv Stereo set. This contains recordings fron 1956 and 1962 on the above mentioned organ, and recordings from around 1970 on the said Silbermann but in fact very much Alfred Kern organ in a church in Strassbourg, the name of which I do not recall at the moment (I am not in my home just now). On this organ he recorded the Leipzig-chorales, the Orgelbüchlein, Clavierübung III and other chorales as well as a smal part of the choral-free works, mostly the youthful works. I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). This is also true of his rerecording for Archiv of the WTC from the early 1970es and even of his last recordings, the Organ masters before Bach (Buxtehude, Bruhns et.c.)- set from 1976, released 1977.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2009, 02:36:57 PM
Unfortunately he only got the interest of the AoF rather late in his career, when he was in his late 40´es, and he recorded it only once. This was in 1956 for Archiv on the Hagbeer/FC Schnitger organ in Sct.Laurents Church in Alkmaar, NL. I think he realised, that he could not improve upon this recording. Also the recorded sound is good for its age, even if it was said, that this was DG´s first stereo recording ever. The engineer was the famous Erich Thiesenhaus. BTW Walcha often performed the work in the years to come, - my elder sister heard him perform it in München about 1967, and she was certainly impressed. The AoF is contained in his Stereo Bach integral, this is the reason why this set occupies 12 CDs, as opposed to the 10 CDs of the Mono integral. DG Archive has also released the AoF separately on two CDs in an improved mastering. Link to this:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Die-Kunst-der-Fuge-BWV-1080/hnum/8784091

Another firm (Idis) has also released his AoF on two CDs, but - as far as I been told - the sound of this release is somewhat distorted, since probably the LP Archiv rerelease from the late 1970´es was used as source material, and this set is unfortunately concerning the AoF (and rather unusual for Archiv) distorted in the loud passages. So avoid the Idis and get the Archiv release, if you do not acquire the entire Archiv Stereo set. This contains recordings fron 1956 and 1962 on the above mentioned organ, and recordings from around 1970 on the said Silbermann but in fact very much Alfred Kern organ in a church in Strassbourg, the name of which I do not recall at the moment (I am not in my home just now). On this organ he recorded the Leipzig-chorales, the Orgelbüchlein, Clavierübung III and other chorales as well as a smal part of the choral-free works, mostly the youthful works. I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). This is also true of his rerecording for Archiv of the WTC from the early 1970es and even of his last recordings, the Organ masters before Bach (Buxtehude, Bruhns et.c.)- set from 1976, released 1977.


Great reply, Premont.  :o

It's crystal clear now. You're my Bach guru!

I was confused because the Idis disc is dated 1956/52, ADD/m, on JPC. But probably the mono pieces are the Toccata & Fuge BWV 565 or the Passacaglia & Fuge BWV 582 or both of them, also included there.  

Thank you very, very much; my previous “thanks in advance” is totally insufficient.

 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on September 19, 2009, 02:48:22 PM
It's crystal clear now. You're my Bach guru!
I was confused because the Idis disc is dated 1956/52, ADD/m, on JPC. But probably the mono pieces are the Toccata & Fuge BWV 565 or the Passacaglia & Fuge BWV 582 or both of them, also included there.  

The rear side of the Isis release tells, that the BWV 565 is the Mono recording from 1947 (Stellwagen/Sct.Jacobi/Lübeck) and the BWV 582 is the Mono recording from 1952 (Schnitger/Sct. Peter and Paul/Cappel).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 19, 2009, 10:23:41 PM
I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). .

I would say that his AoF is a bit Apollonian, even though it isn't so late. In fact, that's a feauture of it which rather puts me off-- If I want to hear it on organ I tend to reach for Rogg or Tachezi
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on September 20, 2009, 03:13:28 AM
I would say that his AoF is a bit Apollonian, even though it isn't so late. In fact, that's a feauture of it which rather puts me off-- If I want to hear it on organ I tend to reach for Rogg or Tachezi

His style was somewhat apollonian from the beginning of his recording career, but it got more apollonian with time. Interesting though that you prefer Rogg and Tachezi, whose AoF I find at least as apollonian as Walchas AoF.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2009, 11:43:12 AM
Rogg seems more colourful.

Tachezi -- there's a sort of architecture. I can't really explain it but I always felt some sort of inevitability about the whole thing (sorry for the meaningless cliché.) Tachezi is my favourite.

I have always disliked Walcha in AoF -- it's one of those things. I always feel that he lacks grace and charisma, -- whenever I hear him I always think of Lurch playing the organ in the Addams family.

I appreciate that this is probably me rather than Walcha! Lots of people with good judgement seem to like him. Every so often I get the recording out and give it another go. One day I may find myself liking it.

Who is dionysian (on the organ) in this?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on September 20, 2009, 02:00:53 PM
Well, I know 32 organ recordings of the AoF, and I would call none of them dionysian.

Agree about the feeling of urgency and inner logic in Tachezi´s recording, but I find Walcha´s recording even stronger in that respect.

As to the colourfulness of Rogg: I think it depends more of the organ he uses. When his recording was released for the first time (LP ca 1973), Grammophone´s reviewer complained about the organ, which he thought was lacking in colour and character. Now I have heard this organ in the real life played by a number of great organists, and it is indeed a colourful organ with much character. But I do not find the sound of this modern neo-baroque organ  ideally suited for Bach. In that respect I find the Alkmaar organ stylistically better.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Mandryka on September 21, 2009, 08:26:21 AM
Well, I know 32 organ recordings of the AoF, and I would call none of them dionysian.

Agree about the feeling of urgency and inner logic in Tachezi´s recording, but I find Walcha´s recording even stronger in that respect.

As to the colourfulness of Rogg: I think it depends more of the organ he uses. When his recording was released for the first time (LP ca 1973), Grammophone´s reviewer complained about the organ, which he thought was lacking in colour and character. Now I have heard this organ in the real life played by a number of great organists, and it is indeed a colourful organ with much character. But I do not find the sound of this modern neo-baroque organ  ideally suited for Bach. In that respect I find the Alkmaar organ stylistically better.


Amazing that the

I'm gonna give HW another go this week!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on October 03, 2009, 10:42:09 AM
Hi there, folks!
Having some major PC problems at home, now sending a message from outer space, the countryside of Groningen province, Netherlands.
Had a nice conclusion of the organ season today, by joining a In Memoriam Ewald Kooiman concert by organist Jan Luth on the Hinsz-organ in Leens.

Never heard this instrument live, but it surely was a great experience, although the church was bl.... cold.
Lots of Bach, and also pieces of the Manuscrit Susanne van Soldt, combined with choral singing of psalms and chorales.

Well, Kooiman has 'grown' to be my favourite Bach interpreter, and I think this concert was a decent and worthy farewell to him.
Afterwards we had a short talk with the organist, very technical stuff about meantone and well-tempered temperaments which I did not entirely understand (did not understand entirely?), and some laughter too.

That's all for now, folks!
Visiting my uncle and auntie, using their PC and drinking my auntie's nice coffee, I salute you!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on October 31, 2009, 09:17:40 AM
To day I have visited the homepage of the Dutch organist Aarnoud de Groen

http://www.aarnouddegroen.com/indexEn.htm

in order to listen to some of the Bach recordings, he has published there in the shape of downloadable MP3 files or as YouTube video´s. He is a most disciplined and informed musician with a considerable command of the organ. In the great chorale free works (BWV 543, 546 and 548 e.g) his tempi are fast (but not too fast - everything is well controlled) and he uses most often full and unvaried plenum sound.  All in all he reminds me a lot of the "young" Wolfgang Rübsam, as we know him from his 1977 Philips integral. So you ought to pay him (de Groen) a visit, - you will not regret.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on October 31, 2009, 10:19:19 AM
Thanks for the link, Premont. :) Listening to BWV 582 as I type.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 01, 2009, 10:23:43 AM
Another thanks here!

BTW, there's another Dutch organist who has just started with another Bach integral: Cor Ardesch.
His website is only in Dutch, though.

Two volumes have been produced by now:
http://www.corardesch.nl/bach2c_deel_1.html
http://www.corardesch.nl/cd27s.html

Maybe, if one's interested, it is possible to order these from abroad.
His mail-address is: info@corardesch.nl.

I have Volume 1, and it's good listening without a doubt.
I think he isn't an ancient music or Bach specialist, and if I would dare to mention a name for comparision, it would be .... a younger version of .... Piet Kee? ???
But I do this with lots of hesitation. Mr. Premont is far more 'auscultated' than I am. 0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on November 01, 2009, 11:24:53 AM
And thanks here, Marc.
I have read so much Dutch during the last months, that I probably shall find out. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on November 01, 2009, 01:36:03 PM
I think he isn't an ancient music or Bach specialist, and if I would dare to mention a name for comparision, it would be .... a younger version of .... Piet Kee? ???

Well, the young Piet Kee was not that different from the old Piet Kee, if I am to judge from those of his Bach recordings I know from the 1960es (BWV 565 and 542 for His Masters Voice on the Schnitger/Alkmaar organ and BWV 546 for Telefunken - on the same organ IIRC). The general impression and impact was similar, with massive registrations and the interpretation a bit pedestrian. I find it difficult to imagine a young Piet Kee other than this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 01, 2009, 03:51:13 PM
I must listen to Kee again, then.

But I think I have only the 'old' Kee at home.

BTW, I wrote younger version of Kee, which isn't the same as 'like the young Kee'. :)

I think I meant to say: Ardesch' playing is a bit similar (which conclusion could be my mistake :-[), but as he's younger than Kee he's more influenced by HIP-traditions.

Anyway, feel free to order a disc and judge for yourself. In his integral Ardesch is playing on a brand new organ in the Grote Kerk of Dordrecht. It was built with the Silbermann organ of Freiberg Cathedral in mind. Before Ardesch started his Dordrecht integral, he already recorded a Bach-disc in Freiberg:
http://www.corardesch.nl/freiberg.html

For those who are interested: maybe that's a nice one to start with.

Oh, and a special observation for opus106: this Freiberg recording has got a performance of BWV 582! :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on November 02, 2009, 03:34:58 AM
Oh, and a special observation for opus106: this Freiberg recording has got a performance of BWV 582! :D

Duly noted. :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 02, 2009, 04:55:10 AM
Well, after some searching in my own house I found some Kee & Ardesch stuff. :D
Reading a booklet learned me (probably again) that Ardesch was a pupil of Kee. Maybe this 'knowledge' was somewhere way back on my personal hard-disk yesterday evening (the one in between my ears).

Speaking about ears: I entered the night with Bach & Piet Kee. Had not listened to this one for months.
http://www.jsbach.org/keepietkeeplaysbachvol1.html

Well, I have to say that it was somehow tiring to listen to it. Like the 'old' Rübsam (Naxos) he's slowing down from time to time, but I do not know what he wants to achieve with that. Rübsam gives the impression that he wants the time to be stopped .... and who doesn't, when one listens to Bach? With Kee, this effect isn't achieved, IMHO. In the end, especially in the chorales, I would call his way of playing rather shredded.

I began this day with Bach & Cor Ardesch (the Freiberg disc).
Indeed, his playing is far more organic than Kee, although there's also some stiffness and inflexibility (the 'famous' Dutch protestantic influence?).
To some, the recording might be too spatial, but I got used to it rather quickly.

If I had to choose, I'd certainly go for Ardesch.
I liked his BWV 582. He's opting for the 'romantic' construction: soft and mild at the start, and then building to a climax, with the fugue entirely pleno.
Personally, I begin to value the pleno from the beginning more and more, but I still fully enjoy this 'romantic' interpretation. For instance: I've always liked Rogg (EMI) and Power Biggs (CBS/Sony) in this masterpiece. Apparently Ardesch is sharing their vision.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on November 02, 2009, 04:52:28 PM
Speaking about ears: I entered the night with Bach & Piet Kee. Had not listened to this one for months.
http://www.jsbach.org/keepietkeeplaysbachvol1.html

Well, I have to say that it was somehow tiring to listen to it. Like the 'old' Rübsam (Naxos) he's slowing down from time to time, but I do not know what he wants to achieve with that. Rübsam gives the impression that he wants the time to be stopped .... and who doesn't, when one listens to Bach? With Kee, this effect isn't achieved, IMHO. In the end, especially in the chorales, I would call his way of playing rather shredded.

Personally, I begin to value the pleno (BWV 582) from the beginning more and more, but I still fully enjoy this 'romantic' interpretation. For instance: I've always liked Rogg (EMI) and Power Biggs (CBS/Sony) in this masterpiece.

Interesting considerations, and once more I think I share your views. Shall listen to Kee a bit more in the nearest future.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 16, 2009, 04:03:10 PM
Listening to Bach's Fantasia & Fugue in g minor, BWV 542. Played by a very young Bernard Foccroulle at the Schonat/Hagerbeer organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, june 1984.
Originally released on 2LP, as part 2 of Foccroulle's Bach integral. Reissued on cd (along with BWV 565, 730/731, 718, 727 and 645-650) as Ricercar RIC 026006. Since long OOP, I guess. Got it in da house thanks to ... the good old-fashioned library!

Mind you: I think that some of these works have been replaced for the 'new' Bach integral of Foccroulle, reissued this autumn, and (shortly) discussed some time ago.

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

Young or 'old', I think that this Belgian organist is very much worthwhile as a Bach interpreter. Maybe his playing was a bit more 'stubborn' before his hair turned .... white.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2009, 08:56:07 AM
A short link to La grande Dame de l'Orgue, Marie-Claire Alain.
Playing the Agricola/Schnitger/Hinsz/et cetera organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL (fragment from BWV 542) and in the end giving us a nice summary of Bach's skills:

http://www.floridahurricane.net/videos/video/gq9_NH8BRvE&feature=youtube_gdata
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on November 24, 2009, 01:43:22 PM
Listening to Bach's Fantasia & Fugue in g minor, BWV 542. Played by a very young Bernard Foccroulle at the Schonat/Hagerbeer organ of the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, june 1984.
Mind you: I think that some of these works have been replaced for the 'new' Bach integral of Foccroulle, reissued this autumn, and (shortly) discussed some time ago.

Fortunately I got hold of this recording from Nieuwe Kerk/Amsterdam, before it went OOP. I like this more than the re-recording made in St.Martini/Groningen. His playing seems to have become a little more conventional.  But both are indeed good, and I appreciate the fine recorded sound of these two important organs.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 24, 2009, 01:59:42 PM
Right now listening to the very rich organ sound of the Albertin organ at l'Église de Saint-Louis en l'Île, Paris. It's played, in a colourful way, by Benjamin Alard.
I think I will never get tired of Bach's Trio Sonatas! And this disc is a pleasure to listen to!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BK5g4fgxL._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on November 25, 2009, 11:01:55 PM
A short link to La grande Dame de l'Orgue, Marie-Claire Alain.
Playing the Agricola/Schnitger/Hinsz/et cetera organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL (fragment from BWV 542) and in the end giving us a nice summary of Bach's skills:

http://www.floridahurricane.net/videos/video/gq9_NH8BRvE&feature=youtube_gdata

Thank you, Marc, for that nice video. (I do wonder, though, about why it is posted on a website about hurricanes in Florida.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on November 26, 2009, 06:37:26 AM
Thank you, Marc, for that nice video. (I do wonder, though, about why it is posted on a website about hurricanes in Florida.)

I stopped wondering some time ago, when Internet is concerned. ;)

But it might have been collected by a Floridan music lover, who has his/her own website and found it on YouTube.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 01, 2009, 01:21:12 PM
Fortunately I got hold of this recording from Nieuwe Kerk/Amsterdam, before it went OOP. I like this more than the re-recording made in St.Martini/Groningen. His playing seems to have become a little more conventional.  But both are indeed good, and I appreciate the fine recorded sound of these two important organs.

Well, this is an historic event!
I disagree with you. :'(

Well, not entirely: I like both performances, too. But in his younger days Foccroulle's style is a bit too 'snappish' and abrupt for my likings. Although he never gets hurried and panting, like Preston does once in a while.

Right now this sinner is listening to Wolfgang Zerer playing Ach was soll ich, Sünder, machen? at the Hinsz-organ of the Petruskerk in Leens, NL.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Organ-Influences-Buxtehude-Bachakademie/dp/B00004TKEI

Another disc that I don't regret having! (Though it's 'only' a copy from the library.)
I would describe his playing as being kinda severe in his interpretation, but also expressive when necessary and colourful in his registering.

In fact, this is a description that could also fit Bram Beekman, so this would mean that I should rate Zerer rather high. ;) I even dare say that in some of the non-liturgic works Zerer is more rhythmically convincing!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 06, 2009, 12:28:54 AM
BACH the 6 organ (trio) sonatas BWV 525-530, (Marie-Claire Alain at l'Église Saint-Hilaire de Näfels (Swiss)   

I probably have close to 70% of Marie Claire-Alain CD singles on the original Erato label that made up her second Bach Complete Organ Works set.  I am just waiting for her third Bach Complete Organ Works set to be re-issued so I can grab it ...

We discussed some time ago on this M-C Alain’s disc and the conclusions were the following:

It is not a part of her integral recordings. It is a single disc recorded between her second and third integral (digital recording). Alain plays there the organ at the Église Saint-Hilaire de Nafels, Glaris, Switzerland. It was recorded on September, 1984.

On the other hand, the trio sonatas disc included in the M-C Alain second integral –at least the disc originally included there- was recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France (analogue recording). I do not know the recording date because is not provided with my set, but that complete set was recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. Apparently, the original set included 21 LPs.

Although perhaps at some point Erato replaced with that digital recording the original one included in the second integral. Is it possible?  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 06, 2009, 02:57:18 AM
On the other hand, the trio sonatas disc included in the M-C Alain second integral –at least the disc originally included there- was recorded on the Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France (analogue recording). I do not know the recording date because is not provided with my set, but that complete set was recorded between May 1978 and April 1980. Apparently, the original set included 21 LPs.
The precise recording dates were not even published in the notes to the original 21 LP set, which I still keep.

Although perhaps at some point Erato replaced with that digital recording the original one included in the second integral. Is it possible?  :)
Probably not. I have never seen the Näfels recording constituting a part of a complete set. But I know, that the second integral was rereleased on CD between 10 and 15 years ago, and I do not know whethe the Náfels recording was included in this or not, but I do not think so, since the second recent CD release of the set includes the Schwenkedel recording.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2009, 03:14:41 AM
The precise recording dates were not even published in the notes to the original 21 LP set, which I still keep.
Probably not. I have never seen the Näfels recording constituting a part of a complete set. But I know, that the second integral was rereleased on CD between 10 and 15 years ago, and I do not know whethe the Náfels recording was included in this or not, but I do not think so, since the second recent CD release of the set includes the Schwenkedel recording.
The second integral hasn't changed (as far as the Trio Sonatas are concerned: Schwenkedel) and is still available, at least in Europe.

I'm afraid that the 'in-between' recording (Näfels) is OOP. Though internet or library searching can provide a solution to that problem of course.

For example:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Sonates-525-530/dp/B000LCIWL6
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 06, 2009, 03:31:31 AM
I'm afraid that the 'in-between' recording (Näfels) is OOP. Though internet or library searching can provide a solution to that problem of course.

For example:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Sonates-525-530/dp/B000LCIWL6

But this is only for completists. I do not think the Näfels recording adds much to the Schwenkedel recording, and if one also has got the Aa Kerk recording (third integral) one is very well-assorted as to M C Alain / Bach Triosonatas.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 06, 2009, 04:04:38 AM
Well, I have ALL THREE of them. :P

Well, I have heard even more Bach Triosonatas / Alain,  since I once owned part of her first integral on Danish organs (LP only). Historically interesting, but from an artistic point of view nothing to write home about, so I  parted with them long time ago. Thanks to my ever since growing completism I would not have done this to day. The Triosonatas were recorded 1959 on the Marcussen organ, Varde IIRC.  Also I have heard her at recital (Andersen organ, Vor Frelsers Kirke/ Copenhagen) playing the Es-dur Sonata.  But all in all I prefer the Schwenkedel recording, the Aa recording being a strong contender.  Ideally she should have recorded the works on the Aa organ about ten years earlier, but this might have been before the latest restoring of this organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2009, 04:55:09 AM
Well, I have heard even more Bach Triosonatas / Alain,  since I once owned part of her first integral on Danish organs (LP only).
:P

Quote from: premont
Ideally she should have recorded the works on the Aa organ about ten years earlier, but this might have been before the latest restoring of this organ.
The organ was replaced in 1990, if I'm not mistaken, after about 12 or 13 years after the removal (because of collapsing danger).
In 1997 the organ was removed again, for a complete restoration. But this complete restoration still has to be completed. So far, it's been nothing but a story of furious discussions and fights about the way it should be restored. Maybe the job will be finished in 2011.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 07, 2009, 02:26:26 PM
Listening to Walter Kraft right now.

(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f63fd369fc.jpg) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Not a bad purchase for € 5.
Less convincing in phrasing and articulation as f.i. the immortal Helmut Walcha, but this disc is certainly not disfiguring my collection. ;)
The recording sound is a bit glassy, though. It sometimes reminded me of the slick stereo sound of the Beatles' Capitol LP's. ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 03:34:00 PM
Over the years I've heard many various organs and organists. Right now my taste runs toward players such as Vernet, Isoir and Chapuis. I like the balance of majesty and impetus, of  heartiness and brilliance they find in Bach. Not to my taste so far are most of the german and dutch players (Koopman, Leonhardt, Tachezi, Richter). Personally I've always found MC Alain to be a rather dull player. I heard her in concert a few times, and have heard quite a few of her records. She invariably comes across as rather too level-headed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 03:39:48 PM
Over the years I've heard many various organs and organists. Right now my taste runs toward players such as Vernet, Isoir and Chapuis. I like the balance of majesty and impetus, of  heartiness and brilliance they find in Bach. Not to my taste so far are most of the german and dutch players (Koopman, Leonhardt, Tachezi, Richter).

It's interesting that you favor French organists for a German's organ music.  Your tastes are clearly different than mine, but that's the way the world turns.  I do agree with you about Alain.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 05:19:15 PM
It's interesting that you favor French organists for a German's organ music.  Your tastes are clearly different than mine, but that's the way the world turns.  I do agree with you about Alain.

I know, it looks like I'm biased, doesn't it? Well, I probably am. But my my bias is more against rythmic rigidity and an emotional palette that seems to alternate between austerity and a refusal of the sensuality inherent in this music. Chapuis is effervescent and buoyant, Isoir blends sweetness and majesty, Vernet has passion and an ability to dazzle without vulgarity. Vernet has one of the most dependable pair of hands and feet in the industry.

Their knowledge of the french organ repertoire obviously informs their playing with a sense of colour that is not really in the northern players' armoury. That being said, the world of organ playing is one of the most cosmopolitan of any instrument. Players travel around the world (where the instruments are), discovering new sounds and different styles of playing (no organist will play a Bach toccata or choral prelude the same way on two different-sounding instruments). In a sense, the cross-pollination ought to produce a similarity of results, but surprisingly, that is not the same. I think the world of the organ is one of the most 'grounded' of any instrument. It's all about tradition. Organ tenures normally last a whole player's carreer, and they seem to live long lives.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 05:52:56 PM
I know, it looks like I'm biased, doesn't it? Well, I probably am. But my my bias is more against rythmic rigidity and an emotional palette that seems to alternate between austerity and a refusal of the sensuality inherent in this music.

Leaving nationality aside, I have a different take on it.  There's plenty of austerity in Bach's organ works, and I want the full measure of it.  When I get full measure, the contrast with the "sweeter" and more optimistic side of Bach is more compelling.  That's why organists like Rubsam, Weinberger and Marcon are among my favorites.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 07, 2009, 06:39:02 PM
I don't think it's a question of nationality, except maybe tangentially. But then again, you seldom hear german-austrian-dutch-scandinavian organists play Couperin, Marchand or Daquin.  Conversely, the german repertoire (from Pachelbel to Bach, to Krebs, to Buxtehude) is an integral part of every organist - even italian ones!

I'm not saying there's a lack of breadth and scope from the saxon-germans, but you'll seldom hear them play french or italian baroque (they don't have the proper instruments for a start), or the french symphonic organ repertoire. Mind you, french and italian organists rarely venture on the english or scandinavian coasts either. There's a lot of great stuff from those countries (England and Sweden for example), that seem to be the province of the locals, so... I think it reinforces my belief of the instrument,  its terroir and their long line of local exponents as prime movers in an organist's interests.

I know it's a bit off subject, but what do others think of Otto Olsson's organ music? For my money, he wrote the best organ music in the last century. Ahead of Reger, actually...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 07, 2009, 08:53:41 PM

I know it's a bit off subject, but what do others think of Otto Olsson's organ music? For my money, he wrote the best organ music in the last century. Ahead of Reger, actually...

I have Olsson's organ music on Swedish Society - play it now and then but can't say I'm very impressed.  Reger's organ music I find more interesting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 08, 2009, 06:14:22 AM
Well, mon ami Lilas Pastia, when one is from près des remparts de Seville, a certain southern preference is no real surprise! ;)

Since Bach is mainly the issue in this thread, I can only say that of your Triptych I wasn't impressed by Chapuis. In fact, it was a disappointing experience. Which, for me, is a rare occasion. The only other real disappointment was American Michael Murray.

I like Isoir, indeed because of his combination of poetry and power, but my favourite of those three is definitely Olivier Vernet. 'His' Bach certainly is a young man's passionate approach!

On two of the four 'German & Dutch' names that were mentioned I would like to say this:
Ton Koopman certainly likes to play French and Italian baroque, also in live organ or harpsichord concerts. But he's done some recording stuff, too:
http://www.tonkoopman.nl/discoblackned.htm

Gustav Leonhardt has recorded, and not only as a keyboard player, f.i. Rameau, Couperin, Frescobaldi, Monteverdi et al. He's got a rather broad taste, although he dislikes G.F. Handel very very much. :-\
Here's a nice example of Leonhardt with a.o. Marchand and Couperin:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lorgue-Bedos-Sainte-Croix-Bordeaux-Leonhardt/dp/B00005S0ME

I can't tell that much about Tachezi and Richter, who aren't really my favourite organists. I have some Tachezi playing Mozart somewhere in my collection .... but how often do I listen to it? :P

One should not forget the influence of the recording labels: once a musician has made a name as a [composer's name]-interpret, in many cases the labels want this to be continued and exploit that image. But in most live concerts the artists are able to choose whatever they want to play.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 08, 2009, 12:11:48 PM
I have Olsson's organ music on Swedish Society - play it now and then but can't say I'm very impressed.  Reger's organ music I find more interesting.

I can certainly understand that. Olsson is a very undemonstrative composer. Lots of meditative stuff, never anything flashy. It can easily put one to sleep, I suppose  ::). It doesn't have the architectural solidity of Reger. Typical church musician compositions I think. He served as church organist for 50 years at Gustav Vasa Church, Stockholm. Here is what he said about himself: "I am conservative. I do not write much anymore, as my music does not suit our time any longer. I do not understand the new music - it has gone too far. And this applies to new church music, too, which puts stilization before inspiration".

I wonder if he was referring to Messiaen, here...? I think he can best be likened to Tournemire and maybe Langlais. He also wrote some very beautiful choral music. I have 3 discs of his music (Proprius, Musica Sveciae and BIS - no Swedish Society!)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 08, 2009, 12:43:55 PM
Well, mon ami Lilas Pastia, when one is from près des remparts de Seville, a certain southern preference is no real surprise! ;)

Since Bach is mainly the issue in this thread, I can only say that of your Triptych I wasn't impressed by Chapuis. In fact, it was a disappointing experience. Which, for me, is a rare occasion. The only other real disappointment was American Michael Murray.

I like Isoir, indeed because of his combination of poetry and power, but my favourite of those three is definitely Olivier Vernet. 'His' Bach certainly is a young man's passionate approach!

On two of the four 'German & Dutch' names that were mentioned I would like to say this:
Ton Koopman certainly likes to play French and Italian baroque, also in live organ or harpsichord concerts. But he's done some recording stuff, too:
http://www.tonkoopman.nl/discoblackned.htm

Gustav Leonhardt has recorded, and not only as a keyboard player, f.i. Rameau, Couperin, Frescobaldi, Monteverdi et al. He's got a rather broad taste, although he dislikes G.F. Handel very very much. :-\
Here's a nice example of Leonhardt with a.o. Marchand and Couperin:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lorgue-Bedos-Sainte-Croix-Bordeaux-Leonhardt/dp/B00005S0ME

I can't tell that much about Tachezi and Richter, who aren't really my favourite organists. I have some Tachezi playing Mozart somewhere in my collection .... but how often do I listen to it? :P

One should not forget the influence of the recording labels: once a musician has made a name as a [composer's name]-interpret, in many cases the labels want this to be continued and exploit that image. But in most live concerts the artists are able to choose whatever they want to play.

I think Chapuis is the most controversial of the lot. Thanks for the Leonhardt link,  I was not aware he had recorded the Convent Mass. In theory the organ chosen should be quite suited to the task - it has some lovely reedy stops. But it doesn't sound  as characterful as the southwestern organs of Carcassone or Saint-Maximin. I'll keep an eye on that one...

Back to Bach: there's a lively organ tradiiton here in Montreal, with instruments by von Beckerath, Casavant and Wolff among others. I used to be a regular at the many concerts. But IMO our organ roster has too long been dominated by players who favour a rather ascetic playing style (rythmically rigid), associated with thick registrations: Lagacé (husband and wife), Laberge, etc. IOW the make bach sound dull and antiquated.

Last year Olivier Latry was in town. He played mostly french symphonic organ music (as well he should have, playing on a Casavant instrument), as well as more contemporary stuff (Messiaen and Escaich). But he delighted me in his playing of a Bach piece (sinfonia from Canatata 29). All the colour and freshness were suddenly there. I hope he some day devotes a full disc to Bach's music.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 08, 2009, 01:19:11 PM
Overall, I don't think it's a great idea to get caught up in the nationality of the organist.  It makes no difference to me whether the performer hails from France, Germany, Sweden, America or the Moon. 

This is a matter of preconceptions, and I feel it's best to leave those at the door.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 08, 2009, 04:26:25 PM
Overall, I don't think it's a great idea to get caught up in the nationality of the organist.  It makes no difference to me whether the performer hails from France, Germany, Sweden, America or the Moon. 
;D

Quote from: Bulldog
This is a matter of preconceptions, and I feel it's best to leave those at the door.
Sure, but of course these countries/regions deliver a lot of musicians who are part of a cultural and/or musical tradition.
Generalizing can be helpful to make a quick survey, but in the end it's only a makeshift.
So I agree: as a listening music lover, one should at least try one's best not to think of nationalities or traditions, whilst listening.

Post scriptum: Bulldog, like your avatar today! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 08, 2009, 04:52:40 PM
Thanks for the Leonhardt link, I was not aware he had recorded the Convent Mass.
[....]
Last year Olivier Latry was in town. [....]
I hope he some day devotes a full disc to Bach's music.
And thank you for reminding me of Latry, who in fact did devote some discs to Bach. He recorded at least 7 discs (Vols. 1-7) of a supposed (?) integral for the label Sound BNL. But I think they are officially OOP.
Here's one example (Vol. 7) at the German Amazon site:
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Triosonaten-Bwv-525-530-UK/dp/B0006HH7EE

And here's a Latry sampler, with works of other composers, too:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Olivier-Latry-belles-pages-discographie/dp/B0001P2JCQ

I myself will check the music library catalogue here this month, and search if there's still one of his Bach discs available. Maybe there's a library in Montréal or elsewhere in Canada who's got some, too.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 09, 2009, 04:35:38 PM
And thank you for reminding me of Latry, who in fact did devote some discs to Bach. He recorded at least 7 discs (Vols. 1-7) of a supposed (?) integral for the label Sound BNL. But I think they are officially OOP.
Here's one example (Vol. 7) at the German Amazon site:
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Triosonaten-Bwv-525-530-UK/dp/B0006HH7EE

And here's a Latry sampler, with works of other composers, too:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Olivier-Latry-belles-pages-discographie/dp/B0001P2JCQ

I myself will check the music library catalogue here this month, and search if there's still one of his Bach discs available. Maybe there's a library in Montréal or elsewhere in Canada who's got some, too.

Well, those trio sonatas (vol. 7) are currently available on JPC (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Triosonaten-BWV-525-530/hnum/6550729)

 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 09, 2009, 05:58:39 PM
And thank you for reminding me of Latry, who in fact did devote some discs to Bach. He recorded at least 7 discs (Vols. 1-7) of a supposed (?) integral for the label Sound BNL. But I think they are officially OOP.
Here's one example (Vol. 7) at the German Amazon site:
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Triosonaten-Bwv-525-530-UK/dp/B0006HH7EE

And here's a Latry sampler, with works of other composers, too:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Olivier-Latry-belles-pages-discographie/dp/B0001P2JCQ

I myself will check the music library catalogue here this month, and search if there's still one of his Bach discs available. Maybe there's a library in Montréal or elsewhere in Canada who's got some, too.

Thanks, Marc, I really had no idea Latry had recorded so much Bach (not knowing the details, but 7 discs is a half integral anyway !!).

I'll try to keep an eye - and ear! - on these. Esp. the trio sonatas, which are favourite works - I got to 'learn' them through Chapuis, BTW, in those blessed days of Telefunken Bach Edition mammoth LP releases - 2 vinyl discs in a lavish presentation (with scores, which I have kept !!). That was volume one (with assorted minor works). I also got volume 7 (Preludes and Fugues). That might explain my fondness for Chapuis' Bach  ;D. After him - and, in  a totally different aesthetic, Karl Richter - I ventured into the HM Rogg integral. Six LPs, which 30 years ago cost me 72$ - believe me, I still  recall it vividly (I was afraid my Visa purchase would be refused :-[) . Big letdown in a sense (very unflashy playing), but over the years it made me appreciate the 'spiritual' side of Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2009, 11:55:13 PM
More Latry:
Präludien & Fugen BWV 534, 535, 543 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Pr%E4ludien-Fugen-BWV-534-535-543/hnum/6737708)
http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/3491421128362.jpg (http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/3491421128362.jpg)

Choräle BWV 645-650 "Schübler-Choräle" (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Chor%E4le-BWV-645-650-Sch%FCbler-Chor%E4le/hnum/6527396)


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 10, 2009, 05:01:57 PM
[....]
I'll try to keep an eye - and ear! - on these. Esp. the trio sonatas, which are favourite works - I got to 'learn' them through Chapuis, BTW, in those blessed days of Telefunken Bach Edition mammoth LP releases - 2 vinyl discs in a lavish presentation (with scores, which I have kept !!). That was volume one (with assorted minor works). I also got volume 7 (Preludes and Fugues). That might explain my fondness for Chapuis' Bach ;D.

Say no more.
First love.
They can last a lifetime.
0:)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 10, 2009, 06:24:19 PM
Say no more.
First love.
They can last a lifetime.
0:)

 :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 10, 2009, 06:25:36 PM
More Latry:
Präludien & Fugen BWV 534, 535, 543 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Pr%E4ludien-Fugen-BWV-534-535-543/hnum/6737708)
http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/3491421128362.jpg (http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/3491421128362.jpg)

Choräle BWV 645-650 "Schübler-Choräle" (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Chor%E4le-BWV-645-650-Sch%FCbler-Chor%E4le/hnum/6527396)

Thanks, Jens - more discs on the wish list!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 11:14:05 AM
Best Bach boxset of organ works to start building collection out from...................
Is it the stereo Walcha/Archiv boxset or something else.........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 12:02:36 PM
Best Bach boxset of organ works to start building collection out from...................
Is it the stereo Walcha/Archiv boxset or something else.........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

You might as well choose f.i. Foccroulle, Vernet, Alain or Weinberger. All are interpretations on a high level, It depends upon your taste, which I do not know. But at a certain point Walcha becomes mandatory listening for the engaged lover of Bachs organ music. But then I would consider his mono integral preferable to his stereo.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 12:32:12 PM
Premont
Is there a noticeble drop in sound quality when going with the mono Walcha?
Did his style change much for later stereo set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 12:39:06 PM
Premont
Is there a noticeble drop in sound quality when going with the mono Walcha?
Did his style change much for later stereo set?

There is a change, but not kind of deleterious . The mono sound is very good for its time.

Yes, Walchas style changed a little, the earlier version being generally more expressive.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 12:45:50 PM
There is a change, but not kind of deleterious . The mono sound is very good for its time.

Yes, Walchas style changed a little, the earlier version being generally more expressive.

Agree.  I enjoyed Walcha's mono set on Document last Christmas so much that I did some damage to one of my bookshelves.  My fault anyway since I have had a mismatch in the sound system in my study when I used a 240 watts/ch Conrad-Johnson power amp driving a 200 watts max Soliloquy bookshelves.  The wireless remote got stuck and unleashed a sudden burst of power during some peak passage in one of the organ pieces.

I have yet to take the somewhat impaired speaker to the shop for a checkup ...
:(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 01:13:26 PM
Great info gents...........

Should any serious thought be given to the Preston/DG & Hurford/Decca complete sets, or are they a notch below those mentioned above by Premont?

Coop........the deep bass response of these big organs is pretty impressive, speakers given real workout
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 13, 2009, 01:18:18 PM
Great info gents...........

Should any serious thought be given to the Preston/DG & Hurford/Decca complete sets, or are they a notch below those mentioned above by Premont?

Hurford maybe - Preston no.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 01:19:29 PM
Great info gents...........

Should any serious thought be given to the Preston/DG & Hurford/Decca complete sets, or are they a notch below those mentioned above by Premont?

Coop........the deep bass response of these big organs is pretty impressive, speakers given real workout

I have most of the Preston's single CD's and all the Hurford's CD's as singles again.  IIRC, Hurford's performance was somewhat on the romantic side.

Yeah, watch out if you have an amplifier and speakers mismatch - either too much or too little power will damage your speakers ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 01:48:20 PM
Should any serious thought be given to the Preston/DG & Hurford/Decca complete sets, or are they a notch below those mentioned above by Premont?

IMO Simon Preston splashes or rather surfs through many of the chorale free pieces in a very insensitive way. Though the Vivaldi arrangements are rather efficient, and the Triosonatas are most beautiful and playful, and many of the Chorales (espec. Orgelbüchlein and Clavierübung III can not be faulted as to expressivity. He uses some interesting if mostly modern organs, among which are the restored Wagner organ, Nidaros Dom, and the Marcussen organs, Sorø and Dom zu Lübeck.

Peter Hurford plays in a "true to the score" and more legato style, common in the 1960es-70es. And like Wolfgang Stockmeier he gains with repeated listening.

But all in all I would not recommend either Preston, Hurford, Stockmeier (and not even Walcha) for someone not too familiar with the works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:14:00 PM
But all in all I would not recommend either Preston, Hurford, Stockmeier (and not even Walcha) for someone not too familiar with the works.

If a complete set is a right idea for introductory purposes - I won't argue that idea-, IMO the best "introduction" would be Christoph Herrick on Hyperion: informed performances, beautiful neo-baroque organs, great sound quality. Anyway, one prevention: I have noticed certain preference of DA for "passionate" performances and this is not the case with Herrick.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 02:31:50 PM
I hope to finish at least the Walcha stereo set and get started with the Weinberger set over the Christmas holidays/vacation.  My Ton Koopman set just arrived late last week ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 02:41:28 PM
If a complete set is a right idea for introductory purposes - I won't argue that idea-, IMO the best "introduction" would be Christoph Herrick on Hyperion: informed performances, beautiful neo-baroque organs, great sound quality. Anyway, one prevention: I have noticed certain preference of DA for "passionate" performances and this is not the case with Herrick.  :)

You are right about that preference.......... ;)

I will probably get the Foccroulle set mentioned previously by Premont (and I believe a favorite of A.M.)
Also the mono Walcha is incredibly cheap (under $20) so I will take a flyer on that.......


Currently listening to a 2CD Hurford/Decca set that I like, but have little to compare it to
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 02:45:46 PM
If a complete set is a right idea for introductory purposes - I won't argue that idea-, IMO the best "introduction" would be Christoph Herrick on Hyperion: informed performances, beautiful neo-baroque organs, great sound quality. Anyway, one prevention: I have noticed certain preference of DA for "passionate" performances and this is not the case with Herrick.  :)

Yes, Herrick is a tad too "tame" -  also to some others than DA, I think.
Bach in tail-coat. ;)

But for the average listener I think M-C Alain´s second set is the best solution, whereas I tend to find Vernet´s set the most suited for DA, - or maybe the Fagius set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 02:57:53 PM
Yes, Herrick is a tad too "tame" -  also to some others than DA, I think.
Bach in tail-coat. ;)
I like the well-mannered, kind people; you know my problems with Beethoven, for instance.  ;)

Anyway, I agree, there are great moments in Herrick, but he is a civilized British gentleman.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 03:05:39 PM
Yes, Herrick is a tad too "tame" -  also to some others than DA, I think.
Bach in tail-coat. ;)

But for the average listener I think M-C Alain´s second set is the best solution, whereas I tend to find Vernet´s set the most suited for DA, - or maybe the Fagius set.

I have a set of Sweelinck's Organ Works by Herrick but have no intention to get his Bach Complete Organ Works ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 03:07:05 PM
You are right about that preference.......... ;)

I will probably get the Foccroulle set mentioned previously by Premont (and I believe a favorite of A.M.)

It is true I like very much Froccoulle's discs; but he is a very introverted performer and, probably, you should consider that fact too. Walcha's mono set is beyond good and evil.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 03:12:00 PM
I like the well-mannered, kind people; you know my problems with Beethoven, for instance.  ;)

This is why I would expect you to have serious problems with Ton Koopman´s organ playing.    ;) :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 03:12:38 PM
Yes, Herrick is a tad too "tame" -  also to some others than DA, I think.
Bach in tail-coat. ;)
But for the average listener I think M-C Alain´s second set is the best solution, whereas I tend to find Vernet´s set the most suited for DA, - or maybe the Fagius set.

Wait the Fagius/Brilliant Classics sounds like a winner from short samples, formerly issued as 2CD BIS label releases at $40 each! The complete Brilliant set much much lower now, this looks like my starting point (plus the mono Walcha)  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 03:16:56 PM
I have a set of Sweelinck's Organ Works by Herrick but have no intention to get his Bach Complete Organ Works ...

Yes, two really charming CDs, not the least because of the meantone tuned modern built period style organ.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 03:21:15 PM
This is why I would expect you to have serious problems with Ton Koopman´s organ playing.    ;) :)

But what is wrong with Ton Koopman's organ playing?  I have the new set by him from Presto Classic sitting right next to me.  I also enjoy most works by Beethoven.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 03:21:29 PM
Wait the Fagius/Brilliant Classics sounds like a winner from short samples, formerly issued as 2CD BIS label releases at $40 each! The complete Brilliant set much much lower now, this looks like my starting point (plus the mono Walcha)  :)

You can not go wrong with these, so far the music interests you.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 03:23:02 PM
But what is wrong with Ton Koopman's organ playing? 

It is far from well-mannered, this Bach set not the least.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 03:24:29 PM
Wait the Fagius/Brilliant Classics sounds like a winner from short samples, formerly issued as 2CD BIS label releases at $40 each! The complete Brilliant set much much lower now, this looks like my starting point (plus the mono Walcha)  :)

I know someone who loves Hans Fagius' playing of Bach organ works.  He has the SACD set.  I have Fagius' set by way of the mammoth 155-CD BC Bach set ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 03:25:57 PM
This is why I would expect you to have serious problems with Ton Koopman´s organ playing.    ;) :)

Yes, that’s generally the case with Koopman as a keyboardist, although he is another story conducting vocal music. But when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic: I am thinking, for example, in those superb Leipzig chorales –with sung chorales- performed on the organ of the Grote Kerk, Leeuwarden... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him.  8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 13, 2009, 03:36:47 PM
although he is another story conducting vocal music. But when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic:... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him.  8)

Would you go so far as to recommend his recordings of the passions and sacred cantatas? I ask, because I do not know them at all - Koopman´s recordings of course. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 03:45:27 PM
Would you go so far as to recommend his recordings of the passions and sacred cantatas? I ask, because I do not know them at all - Koopman´s recordings of course. :)

I have Koopman's DVD on Bach Cantatas Nos. 140 and 147, etc.  The DVD was quite enjoyable.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 03:51:28 PM
Would you go so far as to recommend his recordings of the passions and sacred cantatas? I ask, because I do not know them at all - Koopman´s recordings of course. :)

I would not recommend his passions like a first choice. But his complete cantatas -that cycle also includes the profane cantatas- are consistently fine. I generally agree with Koopman's selection of voices, but one prevention should be made: I love the first three volumes of his integral (9 CDs), but some people -even many people- can't stand the soprano Barbara Schlick, who is present in those discs. I always recall this because a friend of mine literally hates her voice. On the other hand, I love her.

À chacun son goût.

 :)   
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 13, 2009, 05:03:29 PM
I didn't know Foccroulle had undertaken an integral set. I have only one disc of it. And it does say Orgelwerke (XIV) on the booklet and back cover  ::).  I find his playing both colourful and thoughtful. IOW unflashy yet quite beautiful as sound.

Fagius is a very interesting musician, an extremely versatile organist with far-reaching interests. I haven't heard a lot of his Bach, but he seems intent on making statements out of the music. Some of the effects sound slightly contrived (the mordents and small pauses inserted in the opening phrase of S.565 for example). But if there's a cheap Brilliant box set, I don't see any reason not to explore futher... :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 05:08:06 PM
I didn't know Foccroulle had undertaken an integral set. I have only one disc of it. And it does say Orgelwerke (XIV) on the booklet and back cover  ::).  I find his playing both colourful and thoughtful. IOW unflashy yet quite beautiful as sound.

Fagius is a very interesting musician, an extremely versatile organist with far-reaching interests. I haven't heard a lot of his Bach, but he seems intent on making statements out of the music. Some of the effects sound slightly contrived (the mordents and small pauses inserted in the opening phrase of S.565 for example). But if there's a cheap Brilliant box set, I don't see any reason not to explore futher... :)

If I find the time, I will pull his CD's out of that mammoth 155-CD BC Bach set to have a second listen ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 13, 2009, 05:54:35 PM
Fagius is a very interesting musician, an extremely versatile organist with far-reaching interests. I haven't heard a lot of his Bach, but he seems intent on making statements out of the music. Some of the effects sound slightly contrived (the mordents and small pauses inserted in the opening phrase of S.565 for example). But if there's a cheap Brilliant box set, I don't see any reason not to explore futher... :)

Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics92216.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 13, 2009, 06:21:59 PM
Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics92216.jpg)

That 155-CD Bach set includes the entire organ works by Hans Fagius.  Why not just buy that mega set?  I got that set about 2 or 3 years ago ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 12:09:59 AM
But what is wrong with Ton Koopman's organ playing?  I have the new set by him from Presto Classic sitting right next to me.  I also enjoy most works by Beethoven.

It is far from well-mannered, this Bach set not the least.

Yes, that’s generally the case with Koopman as a keyboardist, although he is another story conducting vocal music. But when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic: I am thinking, for example, in those superb Leipzig chorales –with sung chorales- performed on the organ of the Grote Kerk, Leeuwarden... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him.  8)

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg)

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor! :o :)

His Teldec Bach set proved to be very satisfactory to me. I did fear moments of too much wild, hard driven inbalanced and overly embellished playing. But that did not materialize...at all. I'm allmost through the whole set and he generally does not go over the top for my taste: very nicely articulated, and sensibly varied playing. Only in the disc with Toccata's, Preludes and Fugues the is a bit too much twiddling going on. But other than than I think it's a superb set in a suitably free, "improvisatory", well informed HIP style on just the right instruments. :)

Koopman's style is admittedly of a personalised nature, but....IMO that is how it should be in organ music from the Baroque - as oppose to the bland, "objectivied" and abstracted approach that was, and very much still is around. Bach didn't play that way, nor did any selfrespecting organist of his time - they all made the music their own. Just pick the organist that suits your taste! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 01:25:58 AM
If one's a beginner in Bach's organ music, with a tendency to get addicted ;), one should begin with the not-so-very-recommandable organists / single discs / integrals. After hearing them, one is probably thinking: wow, great music, but somehow something is missing!
Then go for the better ones .... and you'll be addicted for a lifetime.

;D

[And now for something (only slightly) different:]

No surprise to some of you: my taste (and therefore advice) will be rather similar to Premont's. But when Ton Koopman is concerned: I totally understand the positive feelings towards him that were mentioned by Que!
But really: Fagius at Brilliant is very very cheap, and his set is a great intro to Bach's impressive organ oeuvre.
Sadly, my personal faves, if integrals are concerned, are all OOP and/or unfunished.
I would like to put a feather in George Ritchie's cap, though. His integral (label: Raven) is far from complete, but I very much enjoyed it. If one's having some difficulties with listening to old historic instruments, his 11cd-set is definitely worth investing.

BTW: if you're not entirely certain whether you're going to like this music, just begin with a single disc! There are so many good organists who didn't go for an integral!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 01:34:28 AM
[About Ton Koopman as keyboard player]
[....] when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic [....]
;D  ;D  ;D

(Hence your own forum nickname? ;))
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 14, 2009, 03:06:26 AM
;D  ;D  ;D

(Hence your own forum nickname? ;))

Nickname? It's my real name, Marc!  :D ;D

One of my favorite movie scenes on pills and medicines:

 
http://www.youtube.com/v/FbyP8gbb1hw


 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 08:36:38 AM
Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics92216.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516sJ6gYtzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Thanks to Premont & company for eagerlly assisting me in depleting my music budget......
These two itens have been ordered, combined purchase under $65  :)

Coop
I did not get the big megabox Bach set by Brilliant because outside of the organ works did not see anything I had to have in that set........I think
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 14, 2009, 08:42:53 AM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg)

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor! :o :)

Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 10:32:03 AM
Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

Koopman began an integral for the Swiss Novalis label, but didn't finish it. The set was reissued by Brilliant: that's the 6cd-box.

For Teldec he began another integral, for which he started all over again.
In general, his style of playing didn't change that much. The 6cd-box is a bargain and IMHO good value for money. Koopman is quite unique, which means that (if financially possible) there's still more than enough room for any other interpreter in your cd collection. :)

For instance: Hans Vollenweider, who's in my cd-layer right now. He's the father of Andreas Vollenweider:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Vollenweider

I just started listening to a library copy of this one (OOP):
http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Vollenweider-Bach-Preludes-Fugues/dp/B0012UFZX4
First personal impressions: very capable organist, though his interpretation is a bit shallow (cautious), with not always convincing registration choices.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 10:40:33 AM
Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rByPTbKZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yes, they are IMO. His style is, of course, basically the same. But - sorry for the platitude - it has matured. I feel less unabashed ethusiasm and thrust, his playing is now emotionally darker and introspective - especially in the chorales, and more refined I think. Of course, all relatively speaking! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 10:53:20 AM
Yes, they are IMO. His style is, of course, basically the same. But - sorry for the platitude - it has matured. I feel less unabashed ethusiasm and thrust, his playing is now emotionally darker and introspective - especially in the chorales, and more refined I think. Of course, all relatively speaking! :)

If the Dark Angel can stand the adornments, he might enjoy Koopman, I'm sure.
I agree with you about the chorales: these bring out the best in Koopman .... also in the Novalis recordings. All personally speaking! ;)

BTW, here's a non-chorale Koopman sampler from DG:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Toccata-Passacaglia-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000057FG
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:25:15 AM
I just started listening to a library copy of this one (OOP):
http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Vollenweider-Bach-Preludes-Fugues/dp/B0012UFZX4
First personal impressions: very capable organist, though his interpretation is a bit shallow (cautious), with not always convincing registration choices.

Just finished listening to the entire disc, and I would like to add this (even though the item is OOP):
Vollenweider tends to begin the preludes rather cautious, builing up to a climax and in some fugues he's very well capable to keep the tension. The recital begins with BWV 548, a great & impressive work which is given only a moderate performance. The second work is BWV 536, and Vollenweider misses the joy of this one.
But after that he's getting better results with resp. BWV 534, 535, 532 and 543, especially in the fugues.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 11:34:53 AM
This thread isn't helping. :-\

Let's say that I want to get the "complete" works -- I have it narrowed down to two: Koopman on Warner and Alain (II) from the same conglomerate. And now you guys throw Fagius into the mix!

Koopman:

       Pros (as I see and hear them, of course):                 Well, I did find his playing a bit strange (on the Novalis/Brilliant recordings), in that it sounded starkly different from "conventional" performances of famous pieces, the ones I was used to (think of the opening of The Addams Family, for instance ::)). I suppose this quality of his is what you refer to as overly embellished playing, Que?

Koopman's style is admittedly of a personalised nature, but....IMO that is how it should be in organ music from the Baroque
It's fairly common knowledge that the history of the performance tradition in the Baroque era is not my field of speciality 0:), but I had a very similar thought when I first listened to Koopman. I imagine that Bach was a 'kook' and played in similar fashion during his time as church organist ;D, rather than simply creating music in a stately manner.
                            And extra disc, that's all. But Koopman perhaps finishes up the majority of the pieces quickly?           
                                 But the pedal-pushing noise sometimes proves to be a distraction in the Brilliant set. How is it in the new one? I don't know about Alain.
           
      Cons (the lack of the following attributes/features are essentially some of the pros of the Alain set):     
                              Perhaps I should try out another playing style, considering I already own the Brilliant set.
                       
As for Alain, she's not HIP, but the instruments she used in her cycle are "lighter" and sweeter sounding. But would I always want to listen to a sweet-sounding organ? (As much as I'm a fan of Bach's music, I would probably not buy another cycle for a long time.)         

Decisions. Decisions.             
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 14, 2009, 11:42:33 AM
Yes, that’s generally the case with Koopman as a keyboardist, although he is another story conducting vocal music. ... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him. 


I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor! :o :)

Rather interesting diversity of opinions.

But what shall I think?? :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 11:48:21 AM
This thread isn't helping. :-\

Let's say that I want to get the "complete" works -- I have it narrowed down to two: Koopman on Warner and Alain (II) from the same conglomerate. And now you guys throw Fagius into the mix!

Koopman:

       Pros (as I see and hear them, of course):
  • He's a HIPpy and a Bach scholar
                Well, I did find his playing a bit strange (on the Novalis/Brilliant recordings), in that it sounded starkly ldifferent from "conventional" performances of famous pieces, the ones I was used to (think of the opening of The Addams Family, for instance ::)). I suppose this quality of his is what you refer to as overly embellished playing, Que?
It's fairly common knowledge that the history of the performance tradition in the Baroque era is not my field of speciality 0:), but I had a very similar thought when I first listened to Koopman. I imagine that Bach was a 'kook' and played in similar fashion during his time as church organist ;D, rather than simply creating music in a stately manner.
           
  • His set is "more complete" than Alain's.
                 And extra disc, that's all. But Koopman perhaps finishes up the majority of the pieces quickly?           
           
  • The organs he uses make a lot of noise! <Insert head-banger-with-a-wig emoticon here>
                      But the pedal-pushing noise sometimes proves to be a distraction in the Brilliant set. How is it in the new one? I don't know about Alain.
           
      Cons (the lack of the following attributes/features are essentially some of the pros of the Alain set):     
            
  • Um... he has a weird playing style.
                  Perhaps I should try out another playing style, considering I already own the Brilliant set.
           
  • It's slightly costlier
            
As for Alain, she's not HIP, but the instruments she used in her cycle are "lighter" and sweeter sounding. But would I always want to listen to a sweet-sounding organ? (As much as I'm a fan of Bach's music, I would probably not buy another cycle for a long time.)         

Decisions. Decisions.           

Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity. ::)

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you! ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 11:53:50 AM
Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity. ::)

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you! ;)

Hm... thanks. ;)

The balance is slightly tipped towards Mme. Alain.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 12:13:01 PM
Hm... thanks. ;)

The balance is slightly tipped towards Mme. Alain.

Oh, I forgot: no Neumeister chorales with Alain and Ritchie.
So: go for Fagius! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 12:14:24 PM
Oh, I forgot: no Neumeister chorales with Alain and Ritchie.
So: go for Fagius! ;D

That settles it, then. :P ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 12:18:54 PM
Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity. ::)

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you! ;)

Skip HIP?! :o  ;) And what about Weinberger's impeccably HIP and rock-solid cycle? (non-eccentric HIP, if you will) On the right historical organs and damn cheap too! :) Liked by a fair number here - search for previous discussions! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203736324.jpg)
                         ~ jpc ~ (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-S%E4mtliche-Orgelwerke/hnum/7006321)


I also like the multi-interpreter cycle on Hänssler's Bach Edition: all HIP playing, some very interesting organists and a very good choice of organs that are superbly recorded. But that is no box set so more expensive - check BRO! :)

Marie-Claire Alain? Definitely not my taste, not a certified HIPpie ;)
(She does not only look like a French grandmother, she also plays like one... ;D My apologies to her fans... 0:))

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 12:29:06 PM
And what about Weinberger's impeccably HIP and rock-solid cycle? (non-eccentric HIP, if you will) On the right historical organs and damn cheap too! :) Liked by a fair number here - search for previous discussions! :)

Damn cheap? I wish it was. CPO = not cheap.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on December 14, 2009, 12:29:12 PM
For instance: Hans Vollenweider,

First personal impressions: very capable organist, though his interpretation is a bit shallow (cautious), with not always convincing registration choices.

Oh yes, Hans Vollenweider,  I almost forgot him. He has recorded a Bach organ integral too (in the 1970es), but I am not aware, that much of it is available on CD.

In the days of LP I somehow got hold of his Clavierübung III (label?) played on the Metzler organ in Grossmünster, Zurich, an organ I never found suited for Bach whatever the registrations (something which is confirmed by Lionel Rogg´s (first Rogg integrale) and Rudolf Scheideggers recordings on the same organ of the same work). Vollenweiders fillers were the Dorian and the Epidemic T & F played on the Schott organ in Muri. Later I got an EMI LP with four chorale free works (BWV 564 and 527 and two more I do not remember) also played on the Grossmünster organ. None of this survived my transformation to CD user, except the Clavierübung III which I burnt on two CD´s. Later I acquired his Leipzig chorales on CD (Accord).

Generally I find him technically competent, but his interpretations are unremarkable and as Marc says cautious. His choice for many of the recordings of the Grossnünster organ, where he was resident organist for many years, seems to me most unfortunate. I do not regret, that I did not spend my money upon him in time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 12:33:21 PM
Skip HIP?! :o  ;) And what about Weinberger's impeccably HIP and rock-solid cycle? (non-eccentric HIP, if you will) On the right historical organs and damn cheap too! :) Liked by a fair number here - search for previous discussions! :)

I also like the multi-interpreter cycle on Hänssler's Bach Edition: all HIP playing, some very interesting organists and a very good choice of organs that are superbly recorded. But that is no box set so more expensive - check BRO! :)

Marie-Claire Alain? Definitely not my taste, not a certified HIPpie ;)
(She does not only look like a French grandmother, she also plays like one... ;D My apologies to her fans... 0:))

Do not interfere with my advices!!
;D

No, I like HIP, but I don't like the word HIP .... especially when I find it bothersome. :D

I like Weinberger, too, but he wouldn't be my first advice to someone who wanted to start with Bach, or wanted just the one integral.
But if this person is of the addicted and greedy kind like me, then of course mr. Weinberger's set will have him (or her) lick his (or her) lips very soon! ::)
Such a LARGE box for such a SMALL price! (At some sites, that is.)
And good HIP :P quality playing on HIP :P :P organs!

Apologies about Alain accepted. 0:)
(Though only after a severe struggle inside.)

But I fear for Navneeth's health.
Here's my final advice:
http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 12:36:28 PM
Generally I find him technically competent, but his interpretations are unremarkable and as Marc says cautious. His choice for many of the recordings of the Grossnünster organ, where he was resident organist for many years, seems to me most unfortunate. I do not regret, that I did not spend my money upon him in time.

Full agreement here, about the organ.
But I managed to get used to it whilst listening.
I'll be listening to Vollenweider's interpretation of the Leipziger Choräle, too. Just checking out both his free and liturgic skills. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on December 14, 2009, 12:37:03 PM
But I fear for Navneeth's health.
Here's my final advice:
http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/

;D

Yes, I already have that bookmarked, I think. Is he HIP? ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 12:40:39 PM
Yes, I already have that bookmarked, I think. Is he HIP? ;D

>:(

I'll be rushing off to this thread (again):
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15403.0.html

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 01:11:39 PM

I like Weinberger, too, but he wouldn't be my first advice to someone who wanted to start with Bach, or wanted just the one integral.


Why?  :) He does seem to have what makes a basic integral. And his playing is not tooo much out of the ordinary (not eccentric, if you will), or does that make him unremarkable? ::) :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 02:22:03 PM
Why?  :) He does seem to have what makes a basic integral. And his playing is not tooo much out of the ordinary (not eccentric, if you will), or does that make him unremarkable? ::) :)

I have the Weinberger and cherish it. I agree with the assessment, though. It's a library's first version, but for personal use I'd imagine it might nice to have a little more... ah... indulgence? Imagination? Which is actually why I'd find "Alain II" a rather good choice. It's got a bit more juice.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 02:52:01 PM
Why? :) He does seem to have what makes a basic integral. And his playing is not tooo much out of the ordinary (not eccentric, if you will), or does that make him unremarkable? ::) :)

Quite right, he's not eccentric. Which should make him a good choice. But yes, I think the quality of his playing is just an itsy bitsy teenie weenie uneven, although that's not really bothering me personally.
Further more, the choice of organs might not be to everyone's likings, combined with the alternately distant and very close miking.

I think that Weinberger should be one of the first choices after a newbie has had his/her first tastes of Bach's organ music, and wants to discover more.
Also, Weinberger's integral gives the interested organ lover a nice insight in the so-called dubious and spurious works. And he gives the not-so-newcomer-anymore a chance to dig deeper into the world and the sound of historic organs.

In general though, for a start with Bach, I think Fagius, Alain and Ritchie offer the most consistent integral readings. But I'd like to add that this is not always the same as desert island readings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 03:03:53 PM
I think that Weinberger should be one of the first choices after a newbie has had his/her first tastes of Bach's organ music, and wants to discover more...

...let's not forget that you can't even think of getting an integral without already having this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HHP0BTGRL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/nectarandambr-20)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/dg-originals-review.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 03:10:56 PM
...let's not forget that you can't even think of getting an integral without already having this one:

[3cd-set with Karl Richter / DG Originals]
Dear Jens, we were so unisono concerning Weinberger .... but let me whisper in your ear:
I'm really not a Richter man.

:'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 14, 2009, 03:20:11 PM
Dear Jens, we were so unisono concerning Weinberger .... but let me whisper in your ear:
I'm really not a Richter man.

:'(

Lovers gained and lovers lost
in but a fleeting Moment.
He makes of Richter's Bach the most,
The other finds it torment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 14, 2009, 03:28:58 PM
Lovers gained and lovers lost
in but a fleeting Moment.
He makes of Richter's Bach the most,
The other finds it torment.

A very inspired example of poetic exaggeration.
Could deservedly become the bonus track of Schubert's Winterreise!
;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 14, 2009, 05:29:18 PM

Rather interesting diversity of opinions.

But what shall I think?? :)

I would sincerely prefer that Q had reason  :)… However, today I was listening to the Koopman’s Trio Sonatas and Orgelbüchlein and I think I won't repeat this experience very often in the future. The organ trio sonatas seem absolutely out of character –with a dark, shadowy tone crossing the disc- and Koopman have severe problems to convey the subtle and delicate intimacy of the choral preludes. I prefer his work as a director, although he can produce some amazing moments on the keyboard, namely, as I said before, in the Leipzig Chorales.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 06:41:30 PM
I would sincerely prefer that Q had reason  :)… However (...)

 0:)

Your namesake will be soo dissapointed! ;)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 14, 2009, 06:49:47 PM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/warnerclassics2564692817.jpg)

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor! :o :)

His Teldec Bach set proved to be very satisfactory to me. I did fear moments of too much wild, hard driven inbalanced and overly embellished playing. But that did not materialize...at all. I'm allmost through the whole set and he generally does not go over the top for my taste: very nicely articulated, and sensibly varied playing. Only in the disc with Toccata's, Preludes and Fugues the is a bit too much twiddling going on. But other than than I think it's a superb set in a suitably free, "improvisatory", well informed HIP style on just the right instruments. :)

Koopman's style is admittedly of a personalised nature, but....IMO that is how it should be in organ music from the Baroque - as oppose to the bland, "objectivied" and abstracted approach that was, and very much still is around. Bach didn't play that way, nor did any selfrespecting organist of his time - they all made the music their own. Just pick the organist that suits your taste! :)

Q

I hope political-correctness has not started to pervade in classical music as well.  Koopman is fully entitled to display his own idiosyncrasies in his interpretation and execution of Bach Organ Works.  His set is still in the shrink-wrap, which I hope to listen to before the winter is over.  I will try to finish listening to my Walcha stereo set and the Weinberger set (still in shrink-wrap as well after 9 months).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on December 14, 2009, 07:18:30 PM
Quite right, he's not eccentric. Which should make him a good choice. But yes, I think the quality of his playing is just an itsy bitsy teenie weenie uneven, although that's not really bothering me personally.
Further more, the choice of organs might not be to everyone's likings, combined with the alternately distant and very close miking.


All agreed. Reasons why I did put my plans to buy this set on the back burner, for now. The major attractions for me are the historical organs and the moments that Weinberger shines, which are there! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on December 14, 2009, 07:37:41 PM
I might as well add my opinion that it's not a good idea for someone new to Bach's organ music to get an integral set from one organist.  Try out a host of different artists to find those that you prefer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 14, 2009, 07:47:30 PM
Quote from: DarkAngel
[b
Coop[/b]
I did not get the big megabox Bach set by Brilliant because outside of the organ works did not see anything I had to have in that set........I think

I guess you are not into Bach's orchestral and choral works like I am.  Handel Ezio by Alan Curtis, anyone?  I hope to get this set soon ...     ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 15, 2009, 04:40:18 AM
I might as well add my opinion that it's not a good idea for someone new to Bach's organ music to get an integral set from one organist.  Try out a host of different artists to find those that you prefer.
Sure. But somewhere in the back of my head I remember that the 'original' question was searching for the Holy Grail Integral. :)

My own experiences are rather mixed: long long time ago I started with single discs (even vinyl): Alain, Leonhardt, Power Biggs.
But I must admit: the complete Bach Brilliant integral of Fagius, was a very good intro to all(?) organ works composed by JSB.

I did mention the possibility of single discs, btw. I mean: there are so many great performers who never did an integral. Leonhardt and Power Biggs I already mentioned, and personal favourites of mine are Wim van Beek and Leo van Doeselaar.

Still, when price/quality is concerned, I think there's nothing wrong with collecting the bargain box of Fagius first. Not for a choice of organist, but for a choice of your favourite Bach organ compositions. After that, if one has fallen in love, there is a great variety of recordings to choose from.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 15, 2009, 04:58:16 AM
0:)

Your namesake will be soo dissapointed! ;)

Q

He shouln't be dissapointed, Q, after all my musical knowledges are almost inexistent  :). Besides, I just was trying to recall the reasons of my disconformity about some discs of that integral, but there are several Koopman's recordings -as a soloist and director- that I love.   :)

P.S.: BTW, I have noticed other cases in which human voice has a beneficial influx over directors and musicians in general, being Fasolis a notorious example (just compare his passions or, even better, his Membra Jesu Nostri to, for example, his Brandenburgs). Something similar happened with Cafe Zimmerman under Leonhartd (BWV 30a & 207), although probably here it was Leonhardt's steel fist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 15, 2009, 03:41:41 PM
2009 is almost at its end .... :'(

For me, it was the first musical year that I spent with (almost) just the one instrument. I celebrated my rediscovery of the organ, and especially JSB's oeuvre for that instrument.

Greatest thrills?
Too much to mention.

Still, here are some:
BWV 533 played by Stanislas Deriemaeker on the Metzler-organ of Onze Lieve Vrouwekathedraal in Antwerp, Belgium.
CD: Rene Gailly CD 87 137 (OOP?)
Philipp Spitta called this one Cathedral and Deriemaeker proves it!

BWV 565 played by Daniel Chorzempa on the Flentrop-organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, NL.
CD: PentaTone Classics 5186 127
Dazzling experience, that's all I can say.
'Second-best' BWV 565 that I heard this year: Thiemo Janssen on the Arp Schnitger-organ of the Ludgerkirche in Norden, BRD.
CD: MDG 906 1502-6

Orgel-Büchlein, dead heat between Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) and Ewald Kooiman (Coronata), both OOP.
Highly spiritual in a protestant way, I would say.

BWV 582 played by Jacques van Oortmerssen, live concert at the Agricola/Schnitger/Hinsz-organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
(See comments on that one earlier in this thread :).)

BWV 562 played by Piet Wiersma on the Lohman-organ of the Hervormde Kerk in Eenrum, NL.
CD: Eurosound ES 47.431 (OOP)
Just a few hours later Piet Wiersma died, leaving his Bach in Groningen integral unfinished, as did Bach with this masterpiece. There were lots of troubles with the reed stops that recording day, because of the extreme tropical temperatures, but the way Wiersma played it .... it's the ultimate Aus tiefer Not feeling. Such heartfelt playing. Perhaps Wiersma sensed what was gonna happen to him soon after .... ?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 15, 2009, 07:57:20 PM
The 1978-1980 Marie-Claire Alain integral set one Erato is available at BRO for just  59.84$

Marc, add to your list of favourites the Fantasia and Fugue in a minor, S. 542
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 15, 2009, 08:00:37 PM
The 1978-1980 Marie-Claire Alain integral set one Erato is available at BRO for just  59.84$

Marc, add to your list of favourites the Fantasia and Fugue in a minor, S. 542

Unfortunately, I have some 70% of the set when I accumulated the singles over the years but never managed to own every CD ...   :(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 02:32:56 AM
[....]
Marc, add to your list of favourites the Fantasia and Fugue in a minor, S. 542
Ha! You got me there.
But also you've got yourself! Because, yes: BWV 542 is a miracle work. But it's in g minor! ;)

Yesterday my head apparently was a bit emptied, after going to the movies and watching Valeria Bruni-Tedeschi for about 100 minutes (Les regrets).

The Bach list I made was constructed by the ones that came immediately to my mind. I didn't really do any preparation. :)

Concerning BWV 542, I was (and still am) very fond of the first recording by André Isoir (70s), part of his integral (Calliope), and better than the second one he did (early 90s).

I'd also like to add my favourite recording (or: one of my faves, I should say) of the lovely Schübler-Choräle.
I borrowed this summer a single library copy by Per Fridtjov Bonsaksen, playing on the Wagner-organ of Trondheim Cathedral, Norway. I think these recordings were (partly?) reissued in a 2cd-set by Challenge Classics, labelno. CC72146. IMO, it's a beautiful experience for anyone who likes fresh, vivid and no-nonsense Bach-playing.

If you were referring to BWV 543 in a minor, I really like the performance by (here we go again) a Dutch organist called Cor Ardesch. Playing the famous Silbermann-organ of the Freiberger Cathedral. CD: MPD-classic 17142408. Ardesch, like f.i. Wim van Beek, is able to keep Bach's polyphony clear even in the pleno outbursts. I'm not sure if this CD is available outside the Dutch Mountains, though. Anyway, here's a link to a disc, that definitely deserves a listening IMHO:
http://www.corardesch.nl/bachinfreiberg.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 04:12:01 AM
The 1978-1980 Marie-Claire Alain integral set one Erato is available at BRO for just  59.84$

Marc, add to your list of favourites the Fantasia and Fugue in a minor, S. 542

It might be just as inexpensive (and space-saving!) to get the re-release from Europe...
(Cheaper still, if "used" is acceptable.)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gvqsdJb8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambruk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K)

Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=jlaurson-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K)

Amazon.fr (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=ionarts0e-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K)

Just listening to--and absolutely loving it--Walcha's Fantasie in G, BWV 572 from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bach
Organ Works
Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004SAAX?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004SAAX)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 16, 2009, 07:50:19 AM
Just listening to--and absolutely loving it--Walcha's Fantasie in G, BWV 572 from this recording:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bach
Organ Works Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004SAAX?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004SAAX)

Jens do you like the Walcha stereo set in general or just that work in particular........is it one of your favorite complete sets?
Have you heard the mono Walcha set?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 16, 2009, 07:55:08 AM
Jens do you like the Walcha stereo set in general
Yes...
Quote
or just that work in particular........
No...
Quote
is it one of your favorite complete sets?
I have no "favorite set" -- I can't at all decide between the ones I have. (Alain II, Rogg II, Walcha II, Weinberger, Stockmeier, Fagius)
I know I like the select Bowyers releases I have...
I would not mind adding/hearing Koopman II (though I care very little for the semi-cycle re-issued on Brilliant.)
Quote
Have you heard the mono Walcha set?
No.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 12:09:20 PM
I have no "favorite set" -- I can't at all decide between the ones I have.
I do realize that it sometimes occurs if favo(u)rite is my favo(u)rite word. ;)
But I do recognize Jens' feelings towards the Bach organ discs/sets/whatever. There are so many goodies in this field. With very different approaches, sure, but that doesn't mean that I really dislike all the so-called less-favo(u)rites. :)
On the contrary! It's almost impossible to choose one!

It's just that I wouldn't advice f.i. Michael Murray or Simon Preston .... although Murray has recorded some good chorales and Preston some very fine trio sonatas and .... here we go again. :D

But dear Dark Angel, if you can find a rather cheap Fagius, Alain, Ritchie or Vernet, Weinberger, Foccroulle, Koopman, Isoir, Rogg, Stockmeier, Walcha .... hey, they're all great IMO!

Was this helpful or what? :P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 12:21:04 PM
It might be just as inexpensive (and space-saving!) to get the re-release from Europe...
(Cheaper still, if "used" is acceptable.)

I ordered a very cheap Walcha 2 this summer. It had to fly from the United States of America to the old continent, and I had to pay around 25 euro's extra for tax import! >:(
Bl.... protectionism!

Dunno what the situation is the other way round, but if you're from the US of A, and ordering music/books from Europe, it might be a suggestion to ask the delivery organisation to write the word gift on the package. Dunno if this helps, but I was recently adviced to try that next time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 12:54:21 PM
[....] economics it the most irrational field in politics these days; makes religious debates look inspired by reason.

;D

And now it's time for Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2009, 01:11:18 PM
Well, the quality of the religious debate depends on the quality of those debating, yes?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 01:19:09 PM
Well, the quality of the religious debate depends on the quality of those debating, yes?

I'd say: the quality of the religious debate depends on the quality of those debating.

But yes (back to topic): the organ is often assumed to be the instrument of God.
And Bach is often assumed to be a true believer in God.

;)

Any chance, all being members of this quality discussion board, of a quality debate about that?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on December 16, 2009, 01:29:21 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore: Bach is believed to have been the instrument of God.

No... wait. God assumed Bach believed in the Organ?

Bach believed his organ to be God.
Jens!
Who took away your recent posting about taxes, economics and religion et cetera .... was it the organ, Bach .... or God?
Or is my vision blurred (again)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 16, 2009, 06:35:06 PM
Ha! You got me there.
But also you've got yourself! Because, yes: BWV 542 is a miracle work. But it's in g minor! ;)


Yikes!  :-[ As if I didn't know... >:D I was listening to Mendelssohn's Scottish symphony when typing this (Litton, Bergen), it must have spilled into my writing.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on December 16, 2009, 06:57:39 PM
I ordered a very cheap Walcha 2 this summer. It had to fly from the United States of America to the old continent, and I had to pay around 25 euro's extra for tax import! >:(
Bl.... protectionism!

Dunno what the situation is the other way round, but if you're from the US of A, and ordering music/books from Europe, it might be a suggestion to ask the delivery organisation to write the word gift on the package. Dunno if this helps, but I was recently adviced to try that next time.

I Have not paid a dime to the US custom after having ordered thousands of dollars worth of CD's from the UK so far this year.  Naturally, I do not pay one pence on the VAT, though the Harnoncourt 60-CD Complete Cantatas set cost me over $20 USD to ship, which I received in 2 days and had to sign for the package.  It does appear EU is more protectionist, that is why it does not run the huge trade deficits like those idiot free traders in Washington have gotten us into ...   >:(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: listener on December 16, 2009, 09:04:54 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore: Bach is believed to have been the instrument of God.

No... wait. God assumed Bach believed in the Organ?

Bach believed his organ to be God.

Considering the number of his progeny, his organ had no stop.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on December 17, 2009, 04:48:21 AM
Jens!
Who took away your recent posting about taxes, economics and religion et cetera .... was it the organ, Bach .... or God?
Or is my vision blurred (again)?

Oh, I did. When I write something that's not even remotely pertinent, I take it down. No reason to get into economics in this forum. Especially not when my point about irrational idiocy reactions is proven just a few posts later.

But I'm calming myself with more of the Walch II Bach cycle.

P&F in c, BWV 546, Trio Sonata No.1 in E-flat, BWV 525, et al.
Terrific.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519klTAnE-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Bach
Organ Works
Archiv (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004SAAX?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00004SAAX)

Considering the number of his progeny, his organ had no stop.

A German professor of mine once related this introductory sentence in an essay on Bach he (allegedly) received:

"Johann Sebastian Bach had 20 children. He was an old master of the grand organ."

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: DarkAngel on December 17, 2009, 06:55:44 AM
Jens
There does seem to be some beneficial health properties to organ playing........
look how long some of great organ composers lived compared to average lifespan of 1700s European male:

JS Bach - 65
Buxtehude - 70
Handel - 74
Telemann - 86
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2010, 09:33:02 AM
OMG!

I just did a terrible thing.

Here I am, low on money, eating bread & butter each and every day, and, in the midst of all this misery, in a state of mental derangement , I ordered the bl.... Bach integral by Peter Hurford.

And why?

Only because my greedy soul wanted a Brit box, and declined the invitations of Preston (too neat), Herrick (too sweet) and Bowyer (too quick-freezed).

Oh, I forgot, Preston I already own.

So, will this be my second not so very wise Bach Brit Box purchase?

:-[

Plz, connaisseurs, say something nice about Peter H.!

Post Sciptum: of course I expect some bullying by Bulldog Don, not because of Hurford's capacities, but because of another stupid box set greediness.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 09:38:23 AM
OMG!

I just did a terrible thing.


1.) You can never have enough Bach organ music,  boxes or not.
2.) A Passacaglia is more nourishing than most things you can microwave
3.) I have always enjoyed Hurford's "Best of" 2-disc set on Decca.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2010, 09:44:51 AM
1.) You can never have enough Bach organ music, boxes or not.
2.) A Passacaglia is more nourishing than most things you can microwave
3.) I have always enjoyed Hurford's "Best of" 2-disc set on Decca.
Jens, give me more! ;D

About your third point: yes, I got that one this summer very cheap, and liked it better than almost exactly the same selection by Kevin Bowyer (2cd also).

I'll just have to fight the bubbling in my stomache, I guess. Thank heavens I still have some biscuit left. Combined with another BWV 582 et al, I think I will survive .... or won't I? :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 09:56:42 AM
Jens, give me more! ;D

About your third point: yes, I got that one this summer very cheap, and liked it better than almost exactly the same selection by Kevin Bowyer (2cd also).

I'll just have to fight the bubbling in my stomache, I guess. Thank heavens I still have some biscuit left. Combined with another BWV 582 et al, I think I will survive .... or won't I? :-\

Biscuit is no means to survive on a small budget, man! If you're a Bach-man,  you're smart enough to make due with a few quid per day for food. If you have a kitchen to use.

Meet your three new friends: Pasta! Rice! Lentils! And the king-maker: Olive Oil. Either of the three, with onions or without onions, with onions and with garlic or without garlic or without onions and with chili peppers or with lots of chili peppers... you get the drift. Add whatever vegetables are in season/cheaply had. I do hope you like tea, because it's your new drink of choice. Milk is OK... but not every day. Yoghurt, if you like it, every Sunday.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2010, 11:31:54 AM
Biscuit is no means to survive on a small budget, man! If you're a Bach-man,  you're smart enough to make due with a few quid per day for food. If you have a kitchen to use.

Meet your three new friends: Pasta! Rice! Lentils! And the king-maker: Olive Oil. Either of the three, with onions or without onions, with onions and with garlic or without garlic or without onions and with chili peppers or with lots of chili peppers... you get the drift. Add whatever vegetables are in season/cheaply had. I do hope you like tea, because it's your new drink of choice. Milk is OK... but not every day. Yoghurt, if you like it, every Sunday.
Jens, you delivered a rather apt description of everyday dinner life. ;D
I really do like pastas, rice, onions, garlic, cheap vegetables, tea and yoghurt.
No problems here then.

And, besides that, completely in peace with everything at this very moment, thanx to the Partite diverse sopra il Corale "Sei gegrüßet, Jesu gütig" BWV 768. Played on the beautiful Arp Schnitger organ of the St. Martini & Nicolaikirche, Steinkirchen, Germany. Organist: Werner Jacob.

As I was saying, completely in peace right now .... wait a sec! Werner Jacob? Do I already have his Bach integral? NO! Unbelievable! A great void in my collection!

>:D

Where are the Amazon links?

:P

Where are my pills?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 12, 2010, 01:47:40 PM
I just did a terrible thing....... I ordered the bl.... Bach integral by Peter Hurford.

So, will this be my second not so very wise Bach Brit Box purchase?

Plz, connaisseurs, say something nice about Peter H.!

Admittedly I consider Hurford´s Bach integral to be one of the more idiosyncratic of its kind. Certainly an acquired taste, which took me some time to acquire. He plays with great authority and conviction, but his sound world is relatively romantic, due to his not always fortunate choices of organs and his often rather "fat" registrations. Add that he plays quite much legato. But his partplaying is excellent and the recorded sound most often good and never less than adequate. And still I much prefer him at least to Preston and Bovyer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 12, 2010, 01:58:11 PM
I really do like pastas, rice, onions, garlic, cheap vegetables, tea and yoghurt.

Very similar to my consumption (except garlic).

..Partite diverse sopra il Corale "Sei gegrüßet, Jesu gütig" BWV 768. Played on the beautiful Arp Schnitger organ of the St. Martini & Nicolaikirche, Steinkirchen, Germany. Organist: Werner Jacob.

Alas this Schnitger / Steinkirchen organ is too little used for recordings.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 01:59:50 PM
Admittedly I consider Hurford´s Bach integral one of the more idiosyncratic of its kind. Certainly an acquired taste, which took me some time to acquire. He plays with great authority and conviction, but his sound world is relatively romantic, due to his not always fortunate choices of organs and his often rather "fat" registrations. Add that he plays quite much legato. But his partplaying is excellent and the recorded sound most often good and never less than adequate. And still I much prefer him at least to Preston and Bovyer.

Thanks Premont, I shall wait with great expectations.

You know, about the financial thing, I would not be so 'negative' if I wouldn't have ordered the Knud Vad integral the day before, too. But this 18-disc collection was only 25 euro (new, sealed et cetera). But after ordering I 'suddenly' read: requires SACD-compatible hardware. On the other hand: on the front cover it says: hybrid SACD. I mean, if it were really non-hybrid SACD's, then the entire collection would have fitted on plusminus 6 discs, no?

So, though I'm a little confused, and eating biscuit, I still reckon those Vad discs are playable at my old-fashioned stereo hifi set. Do you know this specific box (large box, with also a large booklet!)?

Here's the link (mind you, the only 25 euro copy is not longer available, because I ordered it):
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Complete-Hybrid-Germany/dp/B000EPFGS2
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 02:10:57 PM

So, though I'm a little confused, and eating biscuit,


1.) Man... now *I*'m getting interested in Hurford's integral. Damned... I shall resist.

2.) Yes, Knud Vad comes on Hybrid SACDs. No worry about alleged special equipment. The fools at Amazon can't categorize things they have no clue about worth &$*#.

3.) Do you remember the special 'book-like' box sets of Rock and Country music that were really popular from the mid-90 to the early oughts? The tall ones? It comes like that, conveniently NOT fitting into any CD shelve that could ever be useful. It's three fold-out panels and in each panel sit six CDs... well... something like that.

4.) Kraft/EMI looks like one genuinely unattractive set. That's why I never tempted you with a link.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 02:19:51 PM
[....]
4.) Kraft/EMI looks like one genuinely unattractive set. That's why I never tempted you with a link.

;D ;D ;D

Dear Jens, if you only knew!

Or do you have paranormal gifts?

As it happens, I'm listening to Walter Kraft right now (BWV 543).
Yes, of the old German lads I prefer Helmut Walcha, but Kraft isn't all that bad .... and having some discs of him gives me a good insight of the development in Bachorgan playing since World War 2. And I have to admit: he had a rather good choice in organs!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 12, 2010, 02:23:31 PM
So, though I'm a little confused, and eating biscuit, I still reckon those Vad discs are playable at my old-fashioned stereo hifi set. Do you know this specific box (large box, with also a large booklet!)?

The Knud Vad Bach integral was released by Danish Classico maybe six years ago. Being  a member of the "Classico-club" I got this Danish CD release for about 350 DKr. = ca 45 Euro. Much later I acquired the Membran SACD release, you refer to. I have not listened to this yet, and I do not own a SACD player, but it was announced as being hybrid, so I did not think much about this issue. If you can wait until to morrow, I shall find out.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 02:25:22 PM
[....]
3.) Do you remember the special 'book-like' box sets of Rock and Country music that were really popular from the mid-90 to the early oughts? The tall ones? It comes like that, conveniently NOT fitting into any CD shelve that could ever be useful. It's three fold-out panels and in each panel sit six CDs... well... something like that.
[....]

Last summer I was tempted with such a large box set, with 4 cd's and one DVD and a great booklet, all filled with historical organs (music, info et al) of the Dutch province Groningen. Mouthwatering .... and expensive, so I resisted. Tough really, because the DVD showed the entire Martinikerk organ (Groningen) from the inside, with comments of organ (re)builders Jürgen Ahrend and Cor Edskes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 02:28:57 PM
The Knud Vad Bach integral was released by Danish Classico maybe six years ago. Being  a member of the "Classico-club" I got this Danish CD release for about 350 DKr. = ca 45 Euro. Much later I acquired the Membran SACD release, you refer to. I have not listened to this yet, and I do not own a SACD player, but it was announced as being hybrid, so I did not think much about this issue. If you can wait until to morrow, I shall find out.

Of course I can wait. If you second Jens' words, I know I can 'relax' again. If not, and you are eventually proven right, then Jens will be eating pine basso profundo instead of biscuit.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 12, 2010, 02:29:09 PM
2.) 3.) Do you remember the special 'book-like' box sets of Rock and Country music that were really popular from the mid-90 to the early oughts? The tall ones? It comes like that, conveniently NOT fitting into any CD shelve that could ever be useful. It's three fold-out panels and in each panel sit six CDs... well... something like that.
Yes and the "booklet" with text is the most heavy I ever have seen.

4.) Kraft/EMI looks like one genuinely unattractive set. That's why I never tempted you with a link.
You must mean Jacob/EMI. Well Jacob was Kraft´s most prominent pupil. But why do you think it is unattractive?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2010, 02:31:07 PM
Oh, Mr. Laurson was speaking of W. Jacob.
So, no spooky paranormal things after all.

;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 02:51:24 PM
Yes, I did mean Jacob. As per the 'hunch': A mix of what I've heard of it (very little, admittedly), what I've heard about it, the asking price, the competition (at lower price points... which, by now, is all but two, three sets anyway).  I've seen the Vad set at very low prices, indeed... but I've never been tempted beyond holding it in my hand and then putting it back again. I'd have to hear a rave from a trustworthy SACD-competent source that it's "all that" to even...

No...hold it, you devils... didn't I just announce that I shan't get any more complete sets of Bach's organ music anymore this year?!?

I had the Jacob set and got rid of it.  The sound was very uneven, some discs were very harsh, enough to be utterly unlistenable, IMO.   At this point I've got too many Bach organ sets to even try to get through (Weinberger, the 70's Allain, Koopman/Teldec, one of the Walcha sets, and another one at least).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 12, 2010, 03:03:23 PM
I had the Jacob set and got rid of it.  The sound was very uneven, some discs were very harsh, enough to be utterly unlistenable, IMO. 

I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 03:15:53 PM
But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

Not if I can't bear to listen to the recording.   :'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 03:17:13 PM
I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

No one suggested it does not count. But is it enough in light of the massive competition? Is it unique in any way? Well... the interpretation for obvious reasons (even mine would be unique... which goes to show what a highly neutral term "unique" really is). But the choice of instruments? There are more historical organ sets than modern organ sets, by now.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 03:22:29 PM
There are more historical organ sets than modern organ sets, by now.

And how am I to appreciate how a "historical" organ sounds when the audio engineering and/or digital transfer is incompetently done?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 03:43:24 PM
Ah... I was arguing 'on your side'. Nor is my point disputing yours.  :D

Yes, I am agreeing with you.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 12, 2010, 06:38:44 PM
I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

Premont, I share your view on the Jacob's set.  I bought the set almost 2 years ago.  While I do not consider the set to be among the top Bach Complete Organ Works set, it is an interesting set from a historical perspective ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 12, 2010, 11:25:20 PM
But the choice of instruments? There are more historical organ sets than modern organ sets, by now.

The ratio between existing historical organ sets and modern organ sets is approximately 15 / 15. And besides it is not just a question of historical organs or not, but also a question of which historical organs. Jacob played on a number of the commonly used organs but even on some very little used instruments, the Schnitger / Steinkirchen being a good example.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 12, 2010, 11:29:45 PM
Not if I can't bear to listen to the recording.   :'(

Do not listen to the recording, listen to the music. 8)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 06:16:21 AM
Well, but by that logic we should have everything that includes someone doing anything differently than anyone else. Which is just about the argument to have all sets rather than discriminate. But if discriminate we must (and we must, to some degree or another), the question is: Is that which Jacob offers so different and so important that he ought to be chosen over any? all? some? other organists and their collections---even if the sound is not satisfactory, making it more difficult to listen to the music?

My criteria was simple.  When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach.  My goal is not to sit around investigating subtle differences between baroque organs, it is to enjoy music.  The Jacob set was, for me, not compatible with that goal.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 06:21:41 AM
Why do I feel you are arguing with me? You are arguing with Premont.  :P ;)

I do not think that quoting a post indicates disagreement, rather than agreement.  It depends on context.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 07:33:42 AM
When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach. 
:o
After such an experience, there are only two options: either one stops, either one hates. I would have gone for the first option, too. :)

Quote from: Scarpia
My goal is not to sit around investigating subtle differences between baroque organs, it is to enjoy music. The Jacob set was, for me, not compatible with that goal.
Fair enough. Maybe with the Weinberger set you will be able to strike the golden mean.
Personally, I'm quite happy with my 3cd Jacobs sampler, though he's not my favourite Bach organist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 09:19:11 AM
Fair enough. Maybe with the Weinberger set you will be able to strike the golden mean.

Parts of the Jacob set were ok, but parts were very not-ok, very very not-ok, in my own opinion.  The set ranged from awful to acceptable, so I did not feel the need to keep it. 

Of the sets I have, none are perfect.  My gripe with Weinberger is that some organs are recorded with too much reverberation, while others are more more closely recorded and spectacular, in my opinion.  I like his lively articulation which makes counterpoint clear.   The other sets, Koopman/Teldec, Allain, Walcha, all have their high points and low points.  There are also a number of outstanding individual discs, such as Richter's collections of DG and Decca, and Johannson's Trio Sonatas (Hanssler).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 10:25:56 AM
I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

I've had the Jacobs set for many years and don't find the sound quality a problem.  As for the performances, it's quite a mix; some of them are among the worst I have ever heard, some among the best.  I'm happy to have the set.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 10:31:03 AM
There are also a number of outstanding individual discs, such as Richter's collections of DG and Decca, and Johannson's Trio Sonatas (Hanssler).

I agree about Richter, but not Johannson.  I find his Trio Sonatas disc rather heavy and drab, the same opinion I hold for his other Bach discs for Haenssler.  For the Trio Sonatas, Rogg or Walcha are far superior.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 02:41:36 PM
I agree about Richter, but not Johannson.  I find his Trio Sonatas disc rather heavy and drab, the same opinion I hold for his other Bach discs for Haenssler.  For the Trio Sonatas, Rogg or Walcha are far superior.

Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 13, 2010, 03:44:37 PM
Quote
Well, but by that logic we should have everything that includes someone doing anything differently than anyone else. Which is just about the argument to have all sets rather than discriminate. But if discriminate we must (and we must, to some degree or another), the question is: Is that which Jacob offers so different and so important that he ought to be chosen over any? all? some? other organists and their collections---even if the sound is not satisfactory, making it more difficult to listen to the music?

I do not claim, that Jacob´s set is the only one to have. But for someone owning five or six other sets (=Scarpia), Jacobs set may be interesting and often rewarding supplementary listening.


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 03:49:07 PM
Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?
I think Don is referring to the Harmonia Mundi recordings.
Dunno 'bout them myself. Only have 3 discs with Rogg (1 HM, 2 EMI), but no Trio Sonatas.

I personally like Marie-Claire Alain's recording in the early nineties on the Schnitger-organ of the Der Aa-Kerk in Groningen, NL. But maybe that one is officially OOP (I know her nineties integral is). The organ is a great factor in this admiration, btw.

Here's a recent recording with Benjamin Alard that quickly convinced me in a positive way, though one might feel that the bass (pedal part) could have been a bit stronger. On the other hand: it gives the whole performance a more 'chamber music'-like impression.
The Aubertin-organ is a beauty, IMHO.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Trio-Sonatas-Organ/dp/B002DMIJNS
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 13, 2010, 03:53:09 PM
My criteria was simple.  When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach. 

No performer can make me hate the composer, and when you - based upon your own reaction - warn against Jacobs set, you are perhaps generalizing too much.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 13, 2010, 04:18:25 PM
I do not claim, that Jacob´s set is the only one to have.

God forbid!  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 13, 2010, 04:27:12 PM
Here's a recent recording with Benjamin Alard that quickly convinced me in a positive way, though one might feel that the bass (pedal part) could have been a bit stronger. On the other hand: it gives the whole performance a more 'chamber music'-like impression.

This is exactly why I think 16F in the pedal should be banned in these works, at least in the slow movements, and many performers seem to think similarily. Based upon your ealier recommendation I have ordered the Allard CD from Amazon UK a week ago, but even if it was advertised that it was in stock, it is now for unexplained reasons in backorder.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 04:27:40 PM
Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?

Harmonia Mundi.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 13, 2010, 04:28:18 PM
God forbid!  :)

Yes, certainly a completists nightmare. :o :o :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 04:35:27 PM
Yes, certainly a completists nightmare. :o :o :D
Thank the Lord I'm not a completist!

Oh, got 2 mails from Amazon yesterday and today: both Hurford and Vad are on their way! 2 Bach integrals, 35 discs, thus far from complete. ;D

Love that biscuit, btw.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 04:38:51 PM
This is exactly why I think 16F in the pedal should be banned in these works, at least in the slow movements, and many performers seem to think similarily. Based upon your ealier recommendation I have ordered the Allard CD from Amazon UK a week ago, but even if it was advertised that it was in stock, it is now for unexplained reasons in backorder.
Should listen to it again, but I'm not sure if the not-so-loud bass is caused by the choice of registration. Could be a recording issue. Anyway: sometimes it seems that the balance is (too?) positive towards the manual parts.
But it didn't really distract me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 04:40:03 PM
Thank the Lord I'm not a completist!

Oh, got 2 mails from Amazon yesterday and today: both Hurford and Vad are on their way! 2 Bach integrals, 35 discs, thus far from complete. ;D

Love that biscuit, btw.

Yikes, Hurford is available again.  When I was looking for it about 6 months ago nobody seemed to have it.  I was fed up with all of those "authentic" organs and wanted a cycle on some modern organs that actually work properly.  But I think I have too many cycles by now to justify another.   :'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 04:47:48 PM
Yikes, Hurford is available again.  When I was looking for it about 6 months ago nobody seemed to have it.  I was fed up with all of those "authentic" organs and wanted a cycle on some modern organs that actually work properly.  But I think I have too many cycles by now to justify another.   :'(

I love authentic organs!

My favourite Bach integrals (Ewald Kooiman, Bram Beekman) were recorded at a splendid selection of old rickety heavy breathers.

And luckilly there are loads of them in my neighbourhood!

YES, WE'RE ALL DIFFERENT!

:P
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 04:49:35 PM
I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2010, 04:51:40 PM
I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.

I can live with that. :-*

(If they're nice & kind people, I might love them anyway, even if they ruin dear mr. Bach.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 13, 2010, 05:04:10 PM
...wanted a cycle on some modern organs that actually work properly. 

If you can wait, we surely some day shall see (or hear) a recording on electronic organ. I suppose, that will work properly in your sense.

At least some French nerd has recorded Bach´s harpsichord partitas on electonic organ. I acquired it because I thoght it was played on pipe organ. But phew, that is history.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 13, 2010, 06:25:28 PM
Thank the Lord I'm not a completist!

Oh, got 2 mails from Amazon yesterday and today: both Hurford and Vad are on their way! 2 Bach integrals, 35 discs, thus far from complete. ;D

Love that biscuit, btw.

I have the original Hurford's 5 volumes of JS Bach Organ Works at 3 CD's per volume.  These may be the only complete Bach Organ Works that I have assembled volume by volume instead of shooting for the big box.  Still hope to tackle the Weinberger set and the Koopman set before the winter is over.     ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 14, 2010, 12:02:42 AM
There are also a number of outstanding individual discs, such as Richter's collections of DG and Decca, and Johannson's Trio Sonatas (Hanssler).

I agree about Richter, but not Johannson.  I find his Trio Sonatas disc rather heavy and drab, the same opinion I hold for his other Bach discs for Haenssler.  For the Trio Sonatas, Rogg or Walcha are far superior.

FWIW I'm another fan of Johannson's Trio Sonatas.  :)

BTW Don, what do you mean with "drab" ? Untransparent?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2010, 04:07:31 AM
FWIW I'm another fan of Johannson's Trio Sonatas.  :)

BTW Don, what do you mean with "drab"? Untransparent?
AFAIK, drab = monotonous, dull.

I dunno Johannsen's Trio Sonatas, but I do know his rendering of the Neumeister Chorales, also part of the Hänssler Bach Edition. Those performances are transparent, and also .... not extremely exciting (being a soft-minded guy, I try to avoid the word "drab" ;)). But in those early chorales this approach works well.
I have to say though, that I generally prefer to listen to them just before going to sleep .... :-\
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 06:10:32 AM
AFAIK, drab = monotonous, dull.

I dunno Johannsen's Trio Sonatas, but I do know his rendering of the Neumeister Chorales, also part of the Hänssler Bach Edition. Those performances are transparent, and also .... not extremely exciting (being a soft-minded guy, I try to avoid the word "drab" ;)). But in those early chorales this approach works well.
I have to say though, that I generally prefer to listen to them just before going to sleep .... :-\

What I like about Johannson's recording of the sonatas is the transparency.  The trio sonatas contains the most delectable examples of free counterpoint from Bach and in Johansson's recording I can hear all of the voices with a level of clarity I haven't found in other recordings.  A combination of recording quality, the instrument, the registration, and Johannson's articulation.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Père Malfait on January 14, 2010, 06:11:15 AM
I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.

Hey! Now wait just a minute . . .  :D :P

The organ world can certainly be cliquish, and some organists can be real pieces of work (the same, of course, can be said for any group), and resolutely unmusical, to boot. Just not all of us.  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 14, 2010, 07:34:42 AM
FWIW I'm another fan of Johannson's Trio Sonatas.  :)

BTW Don, what do you mean with "drab" ? Untransparent?

Q

No, nothing to do with transparency.  I find him a little dull and lacking spirit.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: KevinP on January 14, 2010, 07:38:14 AM
Call me low class, but I still get a chuckle from this thread's title.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 14, 2010, 07:42:51 AM
Call me low class, but I still get a chuckle from this thread's title.

Looking at it that way, the title should be "Bach's Organ No Longer Works".

By the way, I forgot to mention my favorite recording of the Trio Sonatas.  E. Power Biggs on Sony; he plays the pedal harpsichord.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 09:01:27 AM
Looking at it that way, the title should be "Bach's Organ No Longer Works".

By the way, I forgot to mention my favorite recording of the Trio Sonatas.  E. Power Biggs on Sony; he plays the pedal harpsichord.

My favorite is this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MGfENQ0-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(Trio Lezard, three reed players)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 14, 2010, 09:12:48 AM
My favorite is this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MGfENQ0-L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(Trio Lezard, three reed players)

Purists will be tracking us down. :D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on January 14, 2010, 09:28:53 AM
Purists will be tracking us down. :D

I assume they will be armed with flintlocks, so I'm not worried.   ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2010, 02:28:34 PM
Recently I heard the Fugue in G minor, BWV 578, played by 4 saxophones, and also (if I'm not mistaken) the 3-part Ricercar from Das musikalische Opfer, BWV 1079 (without the baritone sax).
That was great!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 18, 2010, 07:27:39 AM
Both Hurford and Vad have arrived at da house.

In short:
After a weekend of listening to both of them, I can say that I'm very happy with these purchases.

Especially Hurford is adding something to my collection. Apparently he's in love with the reed stops of the various intruments he's playing, which gives his performances a bold and intense character .... and I like that. :)
Yes, he plays with legato, though not all the time, and in this case I really don't mind about that. Compared to his compatriots Preston, Herrick and Bowyer, I would say (after selected listening of course) that I definitely prefer Hurford. Together with Herrick, I think Hurford is the most communicative musician of these four. But sometimes I find Herrick too 'soft', when I'm in need of more power. :)

About Knud Vad: indeed (sigh of relief), a hybrid (SA)CD set!
All right, rather old-fashioned readings, with a lot of legato, though with (IMHO of course) a good touch for registrations and in general no slackening in most non-choral works.
Live recordings apparently (the odd mistake here & there, some coughing from the audience), but .... the sound quality is really very good! This Marcussen organ in the Sorø Church (Denmark) appears to be a better instrument than the Marcussen one that Bowyer is playing (Sct. Hans Kirke, Odense, Denmark).
If one is getting the nerves when listening to HIP-Bach and old organs, this integral might be a good choice. The luxurious booklet, in which every single work gets a short description, is a nice bonus!

I admit: I paid only 26 euro for this (including shipping), which appears to be a real stroke of luck. I don't think I would be interested in this integral at full-price costs.
IMO, Hurford is definitely more worthwhile.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 18, 2010, 07:36:24 AM
Both Hurford and Vad have arrived at da house.

In short:
After a weekend of listening to both of them, I can say that I'm very happy with these purchases.

Especially Hurford is adding something to my collection. Apparently he's in love with the reed stops of the various intruments he's playing, which gives his performances a bold and intense character .... and I like that. :)
Yes, he plays with legato, though not all the time, and in this case I really don't mind about that. Compared to his compatriots Preston, Herrick and Bowyer, I would say (after selected listening of course) that I definitely prefer Hurford. Together with Herrick, I think Hurford is the most communicative musician of these four. But sometimes I find Herrick too 'soft', when I'm in need of more power. :)

About Knud Vad: indeed (sigh of relief), a hybrid (SA)CD set!
All right, rather old-fashioned readings, with a lot of legato, though with (IMHO of course) a good touch for registrations and in general no slackening in most non-choral works.
Live recordings apparently (the odd mistake here & there, some coughing from the audience), but .... the sound quality is really very good! This Marcussen organ in the Sorø Church (Denmark) appears to be a better instrument than the Marcussen one that Bowyer is playing (Sct. Hans Kirke, Odense, Denmark).
If one is getting the nerves when listening to HIP-Bach and old organs, this integral might be a good choice. The luxurious booklet, in which every single work gets a short description, is a nice bonus!

I admit: I paid only 26 euro for this (including shipping), which appears to be a real stroke of luck. I don't think I would be interested in this integral at full-price costs.
IMO, Hurford is definitely more worthwhile.

How many CD's does the Hurford set have?  I have 5 volumes at 3 CD each, the original release.  Each volume is in a fatboy CD jewel case.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 18, 2010, 07:53:57 AM
How many CD's does the Hurford set have?  I have 5 volumes at 3 CD each, the original release.  Each volume is in a fatboy CD jewel case.

17 discs (probably new track listing).
Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Works-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B0000041KD/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263829967&sr=1-37
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 18, 2010, 08:29:04 AM
17 discs (probably new track listing).
Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Works-Johann-Sebastian-Bach/dp/B0000041KD/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263829967&sr=1-37

It has been at least 15 years since I bought all those volumes.  My collection may be missing one volume, Vol. 6, which was almost impossible to find IIRC.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2010, 08:18:00 AM
I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.
Or recording engineers.

Sure, the Duke University Chapel (Chapel Hill, NC) is a large building .... but is it really inevitable to make a decent Flentrop organ sound like it's been recorded in an enormous swimming pool?

(http://i48.tinypic.com/24l3ic8.jpg)

Of course it doesn't make me hate neither composer nor performer (the latter in this case: Joan Lippincott) .... but unfortunately the sound of an outta space cistern makes any satisfactionary listening quite impossible, IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 29, 2010, 01:39:54 AM
A big, sturdy, well wrought hands-on interpretation by Andrea Marcon. Much to admire, but also at times too slow and ponderous, especially for works by the young Bach. Wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092087000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 29, 2010, 09:23:07 AM
A big, sturdy, well wrought hands-on interpretation by Andrea Marcon. Much to admire, but also at times too slow and ponderous, especially for works by the young Bach. Wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

Having owned this 2CD set for nine years but never having listened to it - because I did not really enjoy Marcon´s two other CDs i nthe Haenssler series - I decided to give it a listen to day. But I can not honestly say, that Marcon is my cup of tea. His playing is directed towards effect and external brilliance, and when the music does not lend itself easily to such treatement, and sometimes also when it does, he does not seem to know what to do with the music, and some disagreable pedantic traits appears in his playing, making listening a mixed experience, even if his playing from a formal poimt of view is scholary. You have to go far to find a similar lightweight Canzona or a similar leaden Allabreve. I do not think, he captures the spirit of this music, and I also very much miss some passion and urgency in his playing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 29, 2010, 12:00:48 PM
Having owned this 2CD set for nine years but never having listened to it - because I did not really enjoy Marcon´s two other CDs in the Haenssler series - I decided to give it a listen to day. But I can not honestly say, that Marcon is my cup of tea. His playing is directed towards effect and external brilliance, and when the music does not lend itself easily to such treatement, and sometimes also when it does, he does not seem to know what to do with the music, and some disagreable pedantic traits appears in his playing, making listening a mixed experience, even if his playing from a formal poimt of view is scholary. You have to go far to find a similar lightweight Canzona or a similar leaden Allabreve. I do not think, he captures the spirit of this music, and I also very much miss some passion and urgency in his playing.

Very much agree with your points - well put! :)

In fact, after the run-through this morning I decided to put it on the "rejection" pile.  ::)

To quote our Don (never got used to "Bulldog" - please consider changing it back.  :)):
Marcon's performances will not be to everyone's tastes. He is with little exception forceful, serious, and slow. Nuances are at a minimum.Many collectors would consider his readings of the sledgehammer variety.The man never lets up; he grabs and pounds his way either into your heart or he could give you a major headache. If there is any opportunity to deliver power and force, Marcon usually takes advantage. Concerning the slow tempos he uses, I logically know that he's slow. However, the power of the performances easily erases any feeling of slowness. This is Bach with a bold and heavy hand, and I doubt that listeners will go away with neutral opinions of the interpretations. They are of the love it or hate it variety. Personally, I tend to love Marcon's readings, although listening in somewhat small chunks might be the best way to approach the set. Full review HERE (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Early-Marcon.htm).

Count me in for the headache category.. :-\

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2010, 12:22:05 PM
Very much agree with your points - well put! :)

In fact, after the run-through this morning I decided to put it on the "rejection" pile.  ::)

To quote our Don (never got used to "Bulldog" - please consider changing it back.  :)):
Marcon's performances will not be to everyone's tastes. He is with little exception forceful, serious, and slow. Nuances are at a minimum.Many collectors would consider his readings of the sledgehammer variety.The man never lets up; he grabs and pounds his way either into your heart or he could give you a major headache. If there is any opportunity to deliver power and force, Marcon usually takes advantage. Concerning the slow tempos he uses, I logically know that he's slow. However, the power of the performances easily erases any feeling of slowness. This is Bach with a bold and heavy hand, and I doubt that listeners will go away with neutral opinions of the interpretations. They are of the love it or hate it variety. Personally, I tend to love Marcon's readings, although listening in somewhat small chunks might be the best way to approach the set. Full review HERE (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Early-Marcon.htm).

Count me in for the headache category.. :-\

Q

Understood.  I remember that review and love the set, finding only the Canzona not to my liking.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2010, 01:50:12 PM
Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.

I myself have been listening quite a lot to Lionel Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge this week, and with great pleasure!
I also decided to give the spatial disc of Joan Lippincott another chance. I think her playing is fine, but due to the acoustics it's almost impossible for me to say anything about her phrasing, articulation and so on. I really don't mind some reverberation, but in this recording it keeps on audible during the entire program. The organ sound is drowning in it. A missed opportunity, IMO.

I think that the Hänssler collection does deliver some gems, from what I've heard so far (which isn't all that much, to be honest). The Leipzig Chorales by Bine Katrine Bryndorf and some Weimar stuff by Wolfgang Zerer were very much to my likings. The Neumeister Chorales by Johannsen were OK (transparent, I like that), though not very exciting.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on January 29, 2010, 02:10:39 PM
Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.
Why? I bet you will not like it.

I myself have been listening quite a lot to Lionel Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge this week, and with great pleasure!
So have I, inspired by you (even the day I had listened to three other AoF´s beforehand)- and with equal pleasure I suppose. This is a musically very satisfying interpretation. The only thing about it I do not like is the recording of the organ. So much more as I have listened to several recitals played on this organ in the real world, and I can not recognize the sound on the recording. In the church the stops blend much better, still leaving a very transparent (polyphonic) sound-picture. The reeds are not so prominent and the sound of the principals is much more beautiful.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2010, 02:30:05 PM
Why? I bet you will not like it.

I'll be interested in Marc's opinion of the Marcon set, having no idea what he might think of it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2010, 03:11:18 PM
Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.
Why? I bet you will not like it.
Dear Premont, you know me: every time you're negative about a recording, I'm eager to get it! ;D

Seriously now: I like the program of the disc, and I'm still interested in a wide variety of different musicians playing Bach's organ. But yes, you might be right with your premature conclusion (casu quo 'bet' ;)), because in many previous occasions you and I shared more or less the same taste. That's why I didn't order it at a shop for 25 euro or more (or maybe less), but for a couple of euros at the library. 8)
If the recording makes me >:( .... I won't tape nor buy it. If the recording makes me :-\, I might tape it and relisten again (and again) to 'finally' draw my conclusions. If the recording makes me :D, I will certainly tape it and who knows, maybe even buy it when the time is right. ;)

Mind you: I very rarely throw discs into the refuse-bin. In some cases it takes time to appreciate a certain recording, you know. People grow older, and sometimes do experience changes in their taste.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 29, 2010, 04:28:08 PM

Mind you: I very rarely throw discs into the refuse-bin. In some cases it takes time to appreciate a certain recording, you know. People grow older, and sometimes do experience changes in their taste.

I was thinking the same thing last night concerning a Bach recording of Art of Fugue performed by Sebastien Guillot on Naxos.  I bought it a couple of years ago and didn't care for it much after a few listenings.  Well, I gave it another spin last night and enjoyed it a lot.  Yes, keep those recordings!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 02:03:17 AM
I think that the Hänssler collection does deliver some gems, from what I've heard so far (which isn't all that much, to be honest). The Leipzig Chorales by Bine Katrine Bryndorf and some Weimar stuff by Wolfgang Zerer were very much to my likings. The Neumeister Chorales by Johannsen were OK (transparent, I like that), though not very exciting.

Wolfgang Zerer - seconded.  :) I also quite like Johannsen's ClavierÜbung BTW. And don't forget Martin Lücker: strong but sensitive and intelligent, articulated playing, but maybe a touch too scholary - Bach was an organ virtuoso and from my perspective he like to "play", so there should be some FUN in there as well! :) The recording by Lücker that I'm listening now:

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Hanssler-BA091.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Frankfurt_Katharinenkirche_Orgelprospekt_1990.jpg/521px-Frankfurt_Katharinenkirche_Orgelprospekt_1990.jpg)

Martin Lücker on the Rieger Organ (1990) of the Katherinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

Seems Don and I agree on this one  :), see his review here (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Var-Lucker.htm).
The new organ sounds pretty good BTW, quite natural and great acoustic though still too "glitzy" & bright, and somewhat missing an individual character/ "face". It was built for both Baroque & Romantic music - I doubt if one can have it both ways like that.

I'm currently reevaluating this series, so to be continued! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 05:11:21 AM
I was thinking the same thing last night concerning a Bach recording of Art of Fugue performed by Sebastien Guillot on Naxos.  I bought it a couple of years ago and didn't care for it much after a few listenings.  Well, I gave it another spin last night and enjoyed it a lot.  Yes, keep those recordings!
Same here.
Good example, btw. I needed a couple more listening sessions with that one, too.
And I'm also able now to value Wolfgang Rübsam's playing in his second Bach integral (also Naxos). OK, this cycle will never be my favourite, but when I bought my first copy (must be around 20 years ago) I really disgusted it. :P

Wolfgang Zerer - seconded.  :) I also quite like Johannsen's ClavierÜbung BTW. And don't forget Martin Lücker: strong but sensitive and intelligent, articulated playing, but maybe a touch too scholary - Bach was an organ virtuoso and from my perspective he like to "play", so there should be some FUN in there as well! :) The recording by Lücker that I'm listening now:

Martin Lücker on the Rieger Organ (1990) of the Katherinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

Seems Don and I agree on this one  :), see his review here (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Organ-Var-Lucker.htm).
The new organ sounds pretty good BTW, quite natural and great acoustic though still too "glitzy" & bright, and somewhat missing an individual character/ "face". It was built for both Baroque & Romantic music - I doubt if one can have it both ways like that.

I'm currently reevaluating this series, so to be continued! :)
Yep, most of this series is on my wishlist, too. But I will take it slowly, so that I can read your valuable opinions about them first! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 05:43:43 AM
Yep, most of this series is on my wishlist, too. But I will take it slowly, so that I can read your valuable opinions about them first! :)

I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 06:15:44 AM
I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot! :)
Very kind words, mister Q.

:-*

;)

But honestly: it's been since about a year now that I 'seriously' started to listen to organ music, so .... please let's be cautious about assumed knowledge. But of course, listening experience is growing, and in many cases this stimulates one's knowledge, too. Also visiting some organ demonstrations in some Groningen churches last summer has certainly helped, not to mention helpful notes by members like Premont and Bulldog (and all the others I forgot).

The only thing I can 'state' for sure is: the organ, and especially Bach's oeuvre for this instrument (and other baroque stuff), is giving me tremendous pleasure & satisfaction! :)
And it doesn't bore me at all, listening to works like BWV 562 eight days a week! ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 30, 2010, 06:25:55 AM
I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot! :)

Q

Modesty is a virtue compared with some who claims to know it all.  I only have 7 versions of Complete Bach Organ Works, including the very rare cycle by Lionel Rogg on EMI Electrola 18 LP-set, which has NEVER been released on CD.  I also have many CD singles on various Bach organ works by various artists and most of the cycles by Preston and Marie-Claire Alain.  The only other cycle I hope to get is the last cylce recorded by Alain, which appears to be OOP for the moment.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 10:54:28 AM
I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Coopmv on January 30, 2010, 10:59:52 AM
I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!

I suppose you only have a few CD recordings by Rogg and not the Complete Bach Organ Works, which is only available on LP to the best of my knowledge.  I have that set on EMI Electrola.  I also have the set by Hans Fagius via the mammoth 155 CD-set on BC ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 11:20:12 AM
I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!
 

For your convenience I'm quoting the very 1st post of this thread wwith valuable recommendations by Premont on this:

Que, here is my list of some HIP recordings, which are played in HIP style on properly restored Northern or German baroque organs. and which do not constitute parts of complete cycles. The number of candidates is small, - almost all uncompromising HIP recordings are parts of integral recordings.

Collections of chiefly choral-free works:

Ton Koopman 6 CD set for Novalis (already recommended by Que).

Rainer Oster 1 CD for Arte Nova on  the Schnitger organ of Sc.Jacobi, Hamburg, (Arte Nova 74321 63644 2).

Stefan Johannes Bleicher  2 CDs for EBS on the Gabler organ in Weigarten and the Holzhey organ in Weissenau respectively.
On the same Holzhey organ he also recorded a Bach-CD for Arte Nova.

Franz Raml  1 CD for Oehms on the Silbermann organ in the Church of the Court, Dresden.

Jean-Charles Ablitzer 2 CDs for Harmonic Records, France on the Treutmann organ, Goslar-Grauhof.

Hubert Meister 1 CD for Motette on the Silbermann organs in Grosshartmannsdorf and Forchheim (contains the triosonates).

Martin Sander 1 CD for Fermate records on the Wagner organ in Trondheim

Matthias Eisenberg and Felix Friedrich 1 CD each (sold as double midprice set) for Capriccio on the Trost organ in Altenburg.

Robert Clark 2 CDs for Calcante on the Hildebrand organ in Naumburg.

Choralbound works:

Orgelbüchlein:
Rene Saorgin on French Harmonia Mundi.

Clavierübung III:
Edgar Krapp for Berlin Classics on the Wagner organs in Brandenburg and Treuenbrietzen.
or
Felix Friedrich for Motette on the Trost organ in Altenburg.


The CDs of some of the uncompromising HIP Integrals are sold separately. This is true of the Haenssler cycle, the Weinberger cycle (CPO) and the Kooiman cycle (Coronata).


I'd like to add Ton Koopman's cycle on Warner/Teldec - I've enjoyed that greatly, see my comments HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.msg377763.html#msg377763) . Caveat emptor: Premont does not approve of that Koopman cycle!  8) ;) Go back and forth from that post to read more about the cycles Fagius & Koopman.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2010, 11:24:47 AM
I suppose you only have a few CD recordings by Rogg and not the Complete Bach Organ Works, which is only available on LP to the best of my knowledge.  I have that set on EMI Electrola.  I also have the set by Hans Fagius via the mammoth 155 CD-set on BC ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VTRPQ06TL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Complete (not quite) Bach Organ works
Lionel Rogg
(2nd cycle)
Perfectly available
as used copies in France (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000027OAA?ie=UTF8&tag=ionartsfr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B000027OAA)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 11:38:40 AM
I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!
I'll be very cautious with my modest advice, because I never really went that deep into solid HIP-constitutions and so-called 'correct' registrations.
In many cases these are important issues in HIP-playing, AFAIK: avoiding too much legato, avoiding too many registration changes during one piece, and avoiding too many tempo changes during one piece (agogics).
Important also: playing with vivid phrasing and articulation.

If I'm not mistaken, our honoured member Premont owns about 127 Bach integrals, and he's a great admirer of HIP, so he might be your most important advisor, as Que has suggested just before me. ;)

If Fagius is entirely 'HIP' is not really for me to decide. His integral was reissued by a Dutch company (Brilliant Classics), as part of the 2000 Bach Collection, and HIP-influenced Dutch reviewers were not so enthousiastic about this set. I recall that the Dutch music magazine Luister called Fagius 'autodidact' and 'accused' him of using both wrong registrations (too many mixture stops) and organs (too many neo-baroque instruments).
(But I'm afraid that there was also a certain amount of chauvinism involved.)

It is true, though (IMHO), that there are some very worthwhile HIP-influenced organ discs of Dutch organists, like Gustav Leonhardt, Ewald Kooiman, Bram Beekman, Leo van Doeselaar, Wim van Beek, Ton Koopman et cetera et cetera.

My favourites, Kooiman & Beekman, who both did a very interesting integral, are unfortunately OOP.
To some Ton Koopman is too jolly, funny, witty and uneven .... but maybe you'll like him. His set (Teldec/Warner), played on historic instruments, is available for a nice price.

Leonhardt is very good IMO. He never did an integral, but who cares? I think he's top notch, for what it's worth. ;)
Here are two interesting Bach issues by him:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-Gustav-Leonhardt/dp/B0000029Y5
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Organ-Gustav-Leonhardt/dp/B00005NYAT

Leo van Doeselaar and Wim van Beek made many recordings for small Dutch organ labels, and they're very hard to get outside the Netherlands.

Bernard Foccroulle, a Belgian organist who plays historic instruments, is also HIP-influenced, and his integral is reissued at budget price (Ricercar).

Also very interesting is the CPO-integral of German organist Gerhard Weinberger. Again: a (very) wide variety of historic organs and also a broad selection of Bach's organ works, including many doubtful and spurious ones. Again, I'll be cautious, but if I compare his playing with f.i. Leonhardt or Foccroulle, I would say that Weinberger is more 'stiff'.

But there is much more, of course, for instance from the Hänssler label, as was discussed during the last two days. Problem is: everything I 'know' has already been mentioned in this large thread. I only tried to summarize a couple of things, combined with my own preferences. I discovered these preferences by just buying both single discs and integrals 'from scratch' .... but I understand that not everyone is willing and able to do such a thing out of the blue.

Good luck with your research!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 11:45:08 AM
Oh, before I forget:
I already mentioned his name a couple of times, but IMO American George Ritchie (label: Raven) is a rather good choice, too. He doesn't play on historic instruments, but his style is certainly very HIP-influenced. His integral is very 'small', only 11 discs, neglecting a lot of 'doubles' (almost similar chorale pieces f.i.) and many dubious works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 12:00:48 PM
Thanks for all the advice so far.

Yes, the Rogg set I own is the Harmonia Mundi (not quite complete organ works). I like that one very much, but I suppose he is probably outdated in terms of performance practice. That's why I am looking for a new set.

I have heard some Ton Koopman samples from Teldec (not Novalis/Brilliant). I gather it depends on the piece, but yeah sometimes his ornamentation is a little too busy and random sounding for my taste, much like on his harpischord recordings.

Leonhardt, obviously I love. His playing is always probing and tasteful. I have heard only a little bit of his organ recordings. But I thought he wasn't too great with his feet?

The Foccroulle is intriguing. Basically, what I'm looking for is something akin to the Vogel Buxtehude but for Bach. Good scholarship, extremely well played but with no obvious shortcomings.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 12:11:01 PM
I do not have this cycle myself, but you might want to check the internet for The Bach Circle in Three Volumes, played by Harald Vogel: compositions of J. S. Bach and of his contemporaries, predecessors and successors on (neo-) baroque instruments. It has been issued by Loft Recordings. Of course this ain't a Bach integral, but still .... (dunno if it's still available, though).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 12:26:03 PM
Some copies of the Vogel seem to be floating around.

Foccroulle's Bach and especially his Buxtehude seems to be well reviewed.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 12:42:48 PM
I'm trying to track down the review I read that said Leonhardt wasn't the best organist with his feet. Perhaps this is completely untrue? I would be interested to know more opinions on Leonhardt as an organist.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 01:05:27 PM
Here's a summary of an interview in which Leonhardt states the harpsichord is my life; the organ is [...] a luxurious extra to me.

http://www.hetorgel.nl/e2000-05c.htm

I do know about Ton Koopman and his short legs, which forced him to play the pedals in the HIP-way (no heels). ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 01:39:11 PM
Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 02:15:21 PM
Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?

No, with all respect of Distler, he probably does not. I can't remember having seen much organ reviews by him. Being familiar with a sizeable chunk of Weinberger's cycle THIS REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Bach_organ_7773632.htm) seems much closer to reality IMO.

BTW, when you made the Buxtehude/Vogel comparison, my first thought was: that sounds like Weinberger. Vogel's Buxtehude is too scholarly to my taste, same goes to some extent for Weinberger. Great instruments BTW, I do not share the reservations in the linked review on that point.

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 02:25:39 PM
Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?

That's not for me to 'decide'.
However, I personally find Weinberger, compared to f.i. Fagius and Walcha, slightly uneven, too. This also goes for the recording sound (sometimes very closely miked, too close for my likings). I haven't heard all Volumes of this set, but from what I've heard so far I certainly wouldn't disagree in a strong way with this review.
Nevertheless I would be more friendly in the end with my 'marking'. Artistic quality: 8; sound quality: 7.

About Foccroulle: if you're interested, here are some 'highlights' from a Dutch review I read some months ago (by a certain A. van Kralingen).

Well polished, introvert and honest interpretations. Some lovely poetic playing in various chorales, and using 'terrace-dynamics' (sic) in the grand Preludes & Fugues. But Foccroulle plays without the 'drive' of MC Alain, the monumentality & emotion of Piet Kee and the baroque-influenced rhetorics of Ewald Kooiman.
Nice playing in the Trio Sonates: no rushing, with only a modest use of mixtures.
Lovely selection of historic organs; every disc has an appealing tracklist (combination of free & chorale works).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 30, 2010, 02:28:51 PM
The more coments I read about Kooiman, the more I'd like to hear him. I hope Aeolus would be interested in licensing one of his earlier cycles for reissue, now their own plans have been aborted by his unfortunate decease. Or maybe... Brilliant Classics? ::)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 02:38:00 PM
The more coments I read about Kooiman, the more I'd like to hear him. I hope Aeolus would be interested in licensing one of his earlier cycles for reissue, now their own plans have been aborted by his unfortunate decease. Or maybe... Brilliant Classics? ::)
I've been so lucky in 2009 to get Kooiman's entire integral, thanks to good and helpful friends, Dutch eBay-related sites (Marktplaats) and libraries.

Here's at least one Dutch link (Premont did post it some time ago, too) that still has 7 volumes of Kooiman's Coronota integral available:
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/index.php?keyword=Kooiman&Search=Zoeken&Itemid=1&option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse

Also available: some copies of the OOP set with Bram Beekman.
Four 2-cd's and one sampler:
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/index.php?keyword=beekman&Search=Zoeken&Itemid=1&option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse

I do know that there is a possibility to order from abroad. Maybe a mail will help interested 'foreigners' out: info@landgoedgerianna.nl.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 02:49:24 PM
Thanks again guys.

I appreciate the Foccroulle reviews, Marc.

I'm also interested in further negative criticisms on Fagius, just to be informed.

Whom do you enjoy for Buxtehude, Que?

Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch?  ;)
What are his strong points?

It seems Premont recommends Alain II (not restored organs) & III (baroque organs, right, so I would prefer), Weinberger, Walcha mono, and the Hanssler discs.

He also says,
"Weinberger is as to style among the "avant garde" HIPs, Alain is a more "middle of the road" HIP."
I am interested in an elaboration of this observation.

Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 03:00:50 PM
Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.
Sure it is, but doesn't that count for all kinds of art where taste and admiration is an important issue?
I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but plz release yourself from illusions that the absolute (HIP-) truth in Bach (organ) playing does exist, no matter how convincing a review might sound.

About Kooiman & a possible selection concerning the Dutch link:
his Volumes 4 & 5 are really interesting gems! The entire Orgel-Büchlein in a very convincing interpretation IMO (the first time I listened to it I 'suddenly' noticed that my eyes were slowly getting wet :-[), combined with youthful free works like BWV 533, 534, 535 & 551, the Pastorale BWV 590 and both Canzona & Allabreve BWV's 588 & 589. Played on a rather unknown historic organ, built in 1756 by the Dutch organ builder Matthijs van Deventer.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 03:13:42 PM
Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch?  ;)
What are his strong points?
Here's a short, yet informative link, part of a very nice and informative Bach site:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Kooiman-Ewald.htm

About his strong points: plz, it's midnight here, and my brains feel tired and empty. :P
Maybe it's the combination of straight-forward playing and sheer poetry.
 
Your question belongs to those likeable questions that are so hard to explain .... but I do know that each time I listen to Kooiman's Bach a certain tune of a certain KC comes to my mind: That's the way I like it!. ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 30, 2010, 03:18:05 PM
Thanks again guys.

I appreciate the Foccroulle reviews, Marc.

I'm also interested in further negative criticisms on Fagius, just to be informed.

Whom do you enjoy for Buxtehude, Que?

Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch?  ;)
What are his strong points?

It seems Premont recommends Alain II (not restored organs) & III (baroque organs, right, so I would prefer), Weinberger, Walcha mono, and the Hanssler discs.

He also says,
"Weinberger is as to style among the "avant garde" HIPs, Alain is a more "middle of the road" HIP."
I am interested in an elaboration of this observation.

Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.

No more so than for Bach's other genres or other master composers.

Some observations:

Fagius - nothing special
Vogel/Loft - very special
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it
Hanssler Series - A must
Berlin Classics Series - A must
Koopman - Hit or miss
Walcha - Essential
Hurford - Excellent
Herrick - Excellent
Ritchie - Excellent
Bowyer - Best to avoid
Jacob - Hit or miss
Preston - Hit or miss
Rubsam - Essential
Tillmanns - Avoid
Biggs - Essential
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must
Germani - Excellent
Murray - Avoid
Porter - A must
Richter - A must
Leonhardt - A must
Weir - Hit or miss
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 03:35:00 PM
Thank you all again, and thanks for that list, Bulldog (Don)

Yes, I read the Bach Cantatas site all the time, so that was my first stop to finding out about Kooiman.

While I would agree that all art and recreative arts are contentious, I think Bach organ works can be a little more estoteric in performance and enigmatic in effect than average. Comparable to Beethoven's symphonies, because HIP and non-HIP can result in some pretty rigid opinions and "schools" On top of that, most people just do not listen to organ and expert critics are harder to find.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 30, 2010, 03:36:34 PM
Some observations of Don!

HA!
In general, I like Bach's organ music played in a straightforward no-nonsense style .... more or less like Don / Bulldog's style here. ;D

Dunno 'bout all of them, but let's respond with a quickie:

Fagius - nothing special. NO way! Thumbs up!
Vogel/Loft - very special. Dunno, but it doesn't surprise me. I rate Vogel very high.
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up. Well, let's say: essential.
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it. Dunno, but liked his EMI 2cds so far, and also his HM Christmas issue.
Hanssler Series - A must. Agreed, from what I've heard of them.
Berlin Classics Series - A must. Agreed, very interesting Silbermann collection of organs before most of them were restored.
Koopman - Hit or miss. The discussions on this board are a proof of that.
Walcha - Essential. No doubt.
Hurford - Excellent. I would say: rather good in a non-HIP way.
Herrick - Excellent. Not entirely my taste, but he's a communicator indeed.
Ritchie - Excellent. Agreed 100%.
Bowyer - Best to avoid. Yeah, probably. Too shallow in the end.
Jacob - Hit or miss. From his 3-cd sampler I would say: not bad at all.
Preston - Hit or miss. Great Trio Sonatas. For the rest: avoid.
Rubsam - Essential. Especially his OOP Philips integral. His Naxos is something special though: hit or miss.
Tillmanns - Avoid. Dunno.
Biggs - Essential. I own only 1 Power Biggs disc and I like it. Best name for an organist, btw!
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must. Indeed a nice issue. Should listen to it again.
Germani - Excellent. Dunno.
Murray - Avoid. Agreed, except for some well-played chorales.
Porter - A must. Dunno.
Richter - A must. Not my taste.
Leonhardt - A must. Agreed.
Weir - Hit or miss. Her Organ Mass is very good IMO!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 30, 2010, 04:08:57 PM
... On top of that, most people just do not listen to organ and expert critics are harder to find.

… that's true and weird at the same time. I have frequently felt that in the organ music we find the most personal, intimate Bach; but this music requires much time to reveal its mysteries and that's not easy in the modern world. These works are like the ciphered diary of J.S. Bach.
 
:)
 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on January 30, 2010, 04:36:22 PM
No more so than for Bach's other genres or other master composers.

Some "observations":

specialveryspecialhitormisstwothumbsupspecialexcellentessentialextraessentialetc.

Now can we get a distinction between "A must", "Excellent", "Two Thumbs Up", and "Essential"?
Did you leave all the Marie-Claire Alains out for a reason? Ditto her student, whatshammacallhim... the one with the silly font on the box. Stockmeier, Knud...
(I assume that you do actually have every available cycle... am I wrong?)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 30, 2010, 09:12:26 PM
Some observations of Don!

HA!
In general, I like Bach's organ music played in a straightforward no-nonsense style .... more or less like Don / Bulldog's style here. ;D

Dunno 'bout all of them, but let's respond with a quickie:

Fagius - nothing special. NO way! Thumbs up!
Vogel/Loft - very special. Dunno, but it doesn't surprise me. I rate Vogel very high.
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up. Well, let's say: essential.
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it. Dunno, but liked his EMI 2cds so far, and also his HM Christmas issue.
Hanssler Series - A must. Agreed, from what I've heard of them.
Berlin Classics Series - A must. Agreed, very interesting Silbermann collection of organs before most of them were restored.
Koopman - Hit or miss. The discussions on this board are a proof of that.
Walcha - Essential. No doubt.
Hurford - Excellent. I would say: rather good in a non-HIP way.
Herrick - Excellent. Not entirely my taste, but he's a communicator indeed.
Ritchie - Excellent. Agreed 100%.
Bowyer - Best to avoid. Yeah, probably. Too shallow in the end.
Jacob - Hit or miss. From his 3-cd sampler I would say: not bad at all.
Preston - Hit or miss. Great Trio Sonatas. For the rest: avoid.
Rubsam - Essential. Especially his OOP Philips integral. His Naxos is something special though: hit or miss.
Tillmanns - Avoid. Dunno.
Biggs - Essential. I own only 1 Power Biggs disc and I like it. Best name for an organist, btw!
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must. Indeed a nice issue. Should listen to it again.
Germani - Excellent. Dunno.
Murray - Avoid. Agreed, except for some well-played chorales.
Porter - A must. Dunno.
Richter - A must. Not my taste.
Leonhardt - A must. Agreed.
Weir - Hit or miss. Her Organ Mass is very good IMO!

I agree about Weir's Organ Mass, but her Leipzig Chorales are not as fine.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on January 30, 2010, 09:17:34 PM
Now can we get a distinction between "A must", "Excellent", "Two Thumbs Up", and "Essential"?
Did you leave all the Marie-Claire Alains out for a reason? Ditto her student, whatshammacallhim... the one with the silly font on the box. Stockmeier, Knud...
(I assume that you do actually have every available cycle... am I wrong?)

Yes, you're wrong.  I'm not familiar with Stockmeier or Knud.  Concerning Alain, I only have an Art of Fugue on Erato that I don't like much.

Distinctions?  "A must" and "essential" beat "excellent" and "two thumbs up" by a large margin. 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 30, 2010, 10:03:17 PM
Which are the best issues from Hanssler?

I thank ye.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 31, 2010, 12:18:07 AM
Which are the best issues from Hanssler?
Well, personally I like Wolfgang Zerer and Bine Katrine Bryndorf. But my 'knowledge' of this series is limited.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on January 31, 2010, 12:56:56 AM
Now can we get a distinction between "A must", "Excellent", "Two Thumbs Up", and "Essential"?
Why not?
Three stars, five stars, a perfect 10, average, rosettes, et cetera. Lots of 'distinguished' music magazines know their disctinctions, too. ;)
And check out all those different emoticons one can choose from on this board!

Confession: I also have a weak spot for 'lists', even though most of them are just quick fun.

Quote from: jlaurson
Did you leave all the Marie-Claire Alains out for a reason? Ditto her student, whatshammacallhim... the one with the silly font on the box. Stockmeier, Knud...
Whatshammacallhim must be Olivier Vernet. :D
And Knud .... Knud Vad.

Anyway, mr. Laurson, your contribution has awoken me again! ;D

Here's a snobbish personal list (beware!), based on about a year of very alternating listening (and reading caused by personal historical interest): sometimes just one disc, sometimes many discs.

Essential (which doesn't necessarily mean 'personal fave'):
Albert Schweitzer (although I personally only know his famous BWV 565), Helmut Walcha, Walter Kraft, Karl Richter, Edward Power Biggs, Lionel Rogg, Peter Hurford, Marie-Claire Alain, Gustav Leonhardt, Wolfgang Rübsam, Daniel Chorzempa, Ton Koopman, Ewald Kooiman, Bram Beekman, Georgie Ritchie, Gerhard Weinberger.

Personal faves, yet not entirely essential ;):
Wolfgang Stockmeier, Hans Fagius, Bernard Foccroulle, Harald Vogel, Olivier Vernet, Wolfgang Zerer.

Interesting and worthwhile IMO:
Peter Sykes, Gillian Weir, Joan Lippincott, Christopher Herrick, Olivier Latry, Bine Katrine Bryndorf, André Isoir, Esther Sialm, Werner Jacob, Hans Ole Thers, Thiemo Janssen, Knud Vad, Heinz Balli, Hans Otto, René Saorgin, Masaaki Suzuki, Stanislas Deriemaeker.

Very chauvinistic picks:
Wim van Beek (excellent!!), Leo van Doeselaar (excellent!!), Piet Wiersma (excellent!!), Sietze de Vries, Piet Kee, Cor Ardesch, Stef Tuinstra, Leonore Lub, Janny de Vries, Jan Hage, Cor van Wageningen.
Some of them (like Van Doeselaar and Kee) have recorded for international recording companies, but the lot of them is only available on small Dutch labels, which means in most cases that they're very difficult to get.

Not very interesting (IMHO):
Kevin Bowyer (though his integral is also very 'complete'), Jean Guillou, Ivan Sokol, Simon Preston, Michel Chapuis, Herbert Tachezi, Hans Vollenweider, Michael Murray, Virgil Fox, Miklós Spányi, the Duruflé's.

Apologies to all the artists I forgot!
But I certainly hope to expand my listening experiences in the forthcoming years! :D
(For instance: some Italians, like Alessio Corti.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on January 31, 2010, 01:32:39 AM
Whom do you enjoy for Buxtehude, Que?


The complete series by Jean-Charles Ablitzer (Harmonic Records). See HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3769.msg376862.html#msg376862) and samples HERE (http://www.micmacmusic.com/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&inc_subcat=1&keywords=ablitzer+buxtehude&x=0&y=0). Haven't tried Koopman yet but intend to! :)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on January 31, 2010, 09:15:28 AM
This is all very helpful.

Thanks, Que, for the Ablitzer resource.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on February 01, 2010, 12:59:27 AM
I really like the Foccroulle samples. I also admire Weinberger's straight approach. The Alain on youtube is impressive, particularly the video of her playing BWV 540.

Decisions, decisions.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2010, 02:22:43 AM
I really like the Foccroulle samples. I also admire Weinberger's straight approach. The Alain on youtube is impressive, particularly the video of her playing BWV 540.

Decisions, decisions.
I wish you luck. :)

Of course, you may also decide NOT to go for an integral, but to pick some good & interesting single discs first.

About the MC Alain integral(s): she never recorded the Neumeister Chorales, unlike Foccroulle and Weinberger.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2010, 10:05:01 AM
Not mentioned in recent previous posts: Jacques van Oortmerssen, who started an integral for the Vanguard label in 1994. Now in license by Challenge Classics, he is continuing his cycle, recently releasing Volume 9.
Strict, no nonsense HIP playing, maybe too 'cold' for some listeners, but after some more listening his playing might grow in one's appreciation. At least that has happened to me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Clever Hans on February 01, 2010, 01:15:36 PM
I wish you luck. :)

Of course, you may also decide NOT to go for an integral, but to pick some good & interesting single discs first.

About the MC Alain integral(s): she never recorded the Neumeister Chorales, unlike Foccroulle and Weinberger.

Yes, that's good advice. I do like integrals, though, to see how a given personality expresses across a body of work.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 01, 2010, 08:28:19 PM
Into volume I of Vernet's Bach integral ( I have I, II and V). Many works in there I don't know well or that, in all fairness, are memorable from the musical standpoint. But Vernet's touch - and his choice of instruments  - make for captivating listening. Whenever I listen to him, I have the feeling I'm listening to an organ - not an interpreter. Organ lovers will know what I mean. For the others  :D , let me say that I consider this instrument to be the only one that can compare to the human voice in its range of colours and capacity for expression.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 02, 2010, 03:33:21 PM
Into volume I of Vernet's Bach integral ( I have I, II and V). Many works in there I don't know well or that, in all fairness, are memorable from the musical standpoint. But Vernet's touch - and his choice of instruments  - make for captivating listening. Whenever I listen to him, I have the feeling I'm listening to an organ - not an interpreter. Organ lovers will know what I mean. For the others  :D , let me say that I consider this instrument to be the only one that can compare to the human voice in its range of colours and capacity for expression.
I certainly enjoy Olivier Vernet and his Bach cycle. But I don't find him less interpreting than, say, Kooiman, Beekman, Van Oortmerssen, Foccroulle, Weinberger, Alain, ..... (et al?).

About the expression of the organ: yes, I have that tremendous experience, too. Although I admit that the comparison with the human voice didn't come in my mind that fast. To me, it's still more of a 'imitatio instrumenticae'. ;)
In fact, I personally believe that almost every instrument is a sort of an imitation of the human voice. And of all those instruments, the organ is maybe the most expanded imitation of a bunch of other imitations. :)

As much as I love the instrument called organ, if I had to choose between "Ach bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ" BWV 6 (3rd movement: chorale with soprano voice & violoncello piccolo) or the 'Schübler' organ arrangment BWV 649, I certainly would go for the cantata version.

To me, the human voice still remains the most expressive and moving instrument of them all. But, of course, that's a personal opinion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 03:50:38 PM
Sure, the Duke University Chapel (Chapel Hill, NC) is a large building .... but is it really inevitable to make a decent Flentrop organ sound like it's been recorded in an enormous swimming pool?

(http://i48.tinypic.com/24l3ic8.jpg)

Of course it doesn't make me hate neither composer nor performer (the latter in this case: Joan Lippincott) .... but unfortunately the sound of an outta space cistern makes any satisfactionary listening quite impossible, IMO.
Well, the smaller Miller Chapel of the Princeton Theological Seminary delivers a more intimate sound from the Paul Fritts organ there. So, now I can really hear an organ! :)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/255813k.jpg)

Again, I like Joan Lippincott's playing, but during the most shivering pieces of the 'Great Organ Mass' (Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist BWV 671 & Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir BWV 686) she's not able to dig really deep.
I'd say her approach is rather distant. This works slightly better in the manual chorales and also the Schüblers. All in all, a nice 2-cd to have, but not essential nor mandatory.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 07, 2010, 04:08:31 PM
Again, I like Joan Lippincott's playing, but during the most shivering pieces of the 'Great Organ Mass' (Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist BWV 671 & Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir BWV 686) she's not able to dig really deep.

Perhaps.
For interactive communication, one needs at least two persons. ;)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 04:13:49 PM
You're very sharp late at night!

8)

So, second (third!) person, do you have a communicative opinion yourself?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 07, 2010, 04:21:52 PM
You're very sharp late at night!

8)

So, second (third!) person, do you have a communicative opinion yourself?

Sorry, the temptation was to big. :-[ ;)

As to Joan Lippincott´s degree of deepness I can not tell. Have not heard her. I have considered acquiring her Triosonatas, Toccatas and Clavierübung III, but the CDs are not easy to find in Europe. You may know a source though?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 04:30:09 PM
Sorry, the temptation was to big. :-[ ;)

As to Joan Lippincott´s degree of deepness I can not tell. Have not heard her. I have considered acquiring her Triosonatas, Toccatas and Clavierübung III, but the CDs are not easy to find in Europe. You may know a source though?
I ordered both of them via Amazon.de. The name of the shop was Dodax-Online.
But there were only a few left in stock.

On the other hand: you might want to give the Gothic website a try.

http://www.gothic-catalog.com/

I haven't done that myself yet, but my experiences with Raven (another American label) are very good. I ordered three or four issues with them and they were deliverd swiftly, without added import taxes. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 07, 2010, 04:35:05 PM

On the other hand: you might want to give the Gothic website a try.

http://www.gothic-catalog.com/

I haven't done that myself yet, but my experiences with Raven (another American label) are very good. I ordered three or four issues with them and they were deliverd swiftly, without added import taxes. :)

Sheer luck, I am sure. This would not happen in the north.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 04:38:30 PM
Sheer luck, I am sure. This would not happen in the north.
Yes, and I sure feel lucky about it.
OTOH: these items were sent by the producing label itself, without distributive trading. Could that be the cause of my luck?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 07, 2010, 04:50:09 PM
Yes, and I sure feel lucky about it.
OTOH: these items were sent by the producing label itself, without distributive trading. Could that be the cause of my luck?

Are you talking from the US to the Netherlands?

Customs opens only what they think may contain items of value exceeding "small purchases". This is not EU-harmonized, to my knowledge, but I reckon it is similar among countries. Officially exempted from tax are items of value below somewhere between 20 and 30 Euros (including shipping, insanely)--though there seems an unofficial agreement not to act on items below 40 Euros (excluding shipping). There are also notably greater liberties made during Christmas time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 04:59:04 PM
Are you talking from the US to the Netherlands?

Customs opens only what they think may contain items of value exceeding "small purchases". This is not EU-harmonized, to my knowledge, but I reckon it is similar among countries. Officially exempted from tax are items of value below somewhere between 20 and 30 Euros (including shipping, insanely)--though there seems an unofficial agreement not to act on items below 40 Euros (excluding shipping). There are also notably greater liberties made during Christmas time.
I told this story before, if I remember it well: I had to pay an extra amount of import tax only once. It was an Amazon.com item, which was stored in Germany btw, and when it arrived in NL I had to pay that extra amount. The post guy said: it's a matter of (bad) luck: how secure the Custom officers were working at Schiphol Airport, et cetera. It was a box set below 40 Euros, but I'm not sure if it was around December last year.

But the items from Raven were sent to me without any problems. I read once or twice at Dutch websites that if a postage package says Amazon, then Custom officers would react as if they had consumed a dozen cups of coffee. :)

It's bloody protectionism anyway!
(That's my opinion, which I share.)

And now I'm off to bed, with Joan Lippincott, errr .... organ music, by Bach.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2010, 05:02:16 PM
As to Joan Lippincott´s degree of deepness I can not tell. Have not heard her. I have considered acquiring her Triosonatas, Toccatas and Clavierübung III, but the CDs are not easy to find in Europe. You may know a source though?

In my experience CD Universe has been an excellent store to purchase those discs by American organists (Ritchie, Lippincott, Rackich): http://www.cduniverse.com/classical.asp?performer=Joan+Lippincott&exact=1

 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2010, 05:05:19 PM
In my experience CD Universe has been an excellent store to purchase those discs by American organists (Ritchie, Lippincott, Rackich): http://www.cduniverse.com/classical.asp?performer=Joan+Lippincott&exact=1

I'm still wide awake! :D

Antoine, it's about online stores in Europe, because of those [censored] import taxes!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on February 07, 2010, 05:07:07 PM
It's bloody protectionism anyway!
(That's my opinion, which I share.)


You're absolutely right. It's protectionism, it inhibits trade and thus wealth creation. It's a narrow-minded but annoyingly stubborn hangover from mercantilist times that costs, not protects jobs. To add insult to injury, it costs the tax payer more money to pay customs officials' pay (and the involved admin. and logistics costs) than they get back from charging tax (VAT and/or custom/import taxes) to non-commercial buyers. Don't get me started. Oh, wait. Too late. You did. I could rant about this at great length. Oh, wait... I did that, too:

http://www.forbes.com/2007/10/15/trade-free-pieler-oped-cx_gap_1016trade.html (http://www.forbes.com/2007/10/15/trade-free-pieler-oped-cx_gap_1016trade.html)
http://www.opposingviews.com/arguments/free-trade-is-truly-progressive (http://www.opposingviews.com/arguments/free-trade-is-truly-progressive)
etc. et al.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 07, 2010, 05:12:53 PM
Antoine, it's about online stores in Europe, because of those [censored] import taxes!

Yes, I understand that, but it's a fact that European stores don't import those discs and CD Universe is rather cheap.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 14, 2010, 12:59:02 AM
This morning, I've been revisiting this disc:

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092092000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Andrea Marcon plays the wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

And I don't get it: why gives Marcon's issue "Ohrduf, Lüneburg, Arnstadt" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.msg388495.html#msg388495), played on the same organ BTW, me a splitting headache and is this such a wonderful recording?  ??? I mean, Marcon's style is still big, sturdy and digging, but way not as relentless and ponderous, more airy and more moments of subtlety and poetry. And considerably more up tempo as well! :o

Yes, all in all: Marcon at his best. Get it. :) Still one issue by him in this series to go BTW. 8)

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 14, 2010, 11:06:02 AM
This morning, I've been revisiting this disc:

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092092000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Andrea Marcon plays the wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

And I don't get it: why gives Marcon's issue "Ohrduf, Lüneburg, Arnstadt" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,638.msg388495.html#msg388495), played on the same organ BTW, me a splitting headache and is this such a wonderful recording?  ??? I mean, Marcon's style is still big, sturdy and digging, but way not as relentless and ponderous, more airy and more moments of subtlety and poetry. And considerably more up tempo as well! :o

Yes, all in all: Marcon at his best. Get it. :) Still one issue by him in this series to go BTW. 8)

Q

Might be that the music on each program is a factor.  As it happens, I definitely prefer the set that gives you a headache.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 14, 2010, 11:13:24 AM
Might be that the music on each program is a factor.  As it happens, I definitely prefer the set that gives you a headache.

 ;D
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on February 15, 2010, 12:10:49 AM
Well, why not make it a Andrea Marcon sequel! :D

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092090000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Again on the marvelous historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

Some famous works on this one. As mentioned before Marcon's style is quite big, sturdy and digging. In the disc opener, the Präludium und Fugue BWV 543 Marcon "pulls out all the stops" with overpowering result. Marcon's playing has loads of character and is well articulated. Again, he plays nicely up tempo. Another winner IMO. :)

Don, I wonder if the main problem with his Ohrdruf, Lüneburg, Arnstadt-set was the tempo, and the (to my ears) ponderousnes and lack of articulation logical results of that. Of course you yourself liked the result, but why would he play those earlier works so slow?

Q
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Bulldog on February 15, 2010, 10:48:57 AM
Well, why not make it a Andrea Marcon sequel! :D

(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/092090000.jpg) (http://www.murikultur.ch/webautor-data/45/Schottsche-Orgel-Klosterkirche-Muri-etwas-dunkler_0.jpg)

Again on the marvelous historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

Some famous works on this one. As mentioned before Marcon's style is quite big, sturdy and digging. In the disc opener, the Präludium und Fugue BWV 543 Marcon "pulls out all the stops" with overpowering result. Marcon's playing has loads of character and is well articulated. Again, he plays nicely up tempo. Another winner IMO. :)

Don, I wonder if the main problem with his Ohrdruf, Lüneburg, Arnstadt-set was the tempo, and the (to my ears) ponderousnes and lack of articulation logical results of that. Of course you yourself liked the result, but why would he play those earlier works so slow?

Q

Because the Bulldog likes it that way.

Seriously, I didn't find the tempos "so slow", and I'm confident Marcon felt the same.  Although his "New Ideas" and "Heyday" discs are mighty fine, I think Marcon was more at the top of his game with the early works set.  Also, I tend to find that the music on the early works set lent itself more to the severe and powerful approach used by Marcon.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 15, 2010, 01:31:42 PM
Listened this afternoon to the first disc of Marcon's Ohrdruf et al set, and to some parts of the second one.

Impressions:
First: bold and majestic playing of the free works. Maybe too little flamboyance in this young Bach works. No problems with headaches, though. I listened to it with headphones at very modest volume and had a nice time.
Second: very nice and lovely registrations of the chorales, which caused absolutely no headaches at all. ;D
Third: the organ is kinda special, with rather agressive reed stops, but it wouldn't surprise me if Bach himself would have liked it that way, though I realize this is a risky thing to 'claim'.
I remember listening to a Greatest Hits disc (Denon) with the same organ (organist: Heinz Balli), and I myself liked this 17th century instrument from the very beginning.
Fourth: the only thing I miss in Marcon's playing is a certain amount of empathy. Meaning: when I listen f.i. to his chorale playing, it doesn't really move me, despite the wonderful registrations. The fact that he's bold and straightforward doesn't bother me at all, but he's too aloof to deserve (for this moment) a steady place among my 'favourites'.

Overall: a nice issue, and definitely recommandable IMO.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on February 18, 2010, 04:11:07 PM
Well, Isoir is not precisely the most praised organist in this forum.

I have read on other forum descriptions of Isoir’s style (“slightly 'larmoyant', too weepy or at least overtly romantic”, “the egomanic Andre Isoir”  :), etc.), but I feel his style as very difficult to define. I don't know the reason why, but I have frequently felt that adjectives like “psychedelic” or “lysergic” ( :o) would be suitable for some parts of his performances, like in some rock music of the sixties and early seventies … and I like those parts.

Yes, his style is difficult to define, maybe because he hasn´t got a definite style. The word "egomanic"is very well put.  And I find him more earth-bound than overly romantic, and in my ears he doesn´t offer much more than a hurried run through, and he is even sometimes a bit sloppy. He plays as if he says to himself, that he just is going to show those "dummies" that he (technically) is perfectly able to play this music. I recently listened to his BWV 543 and agree that the prelude has got a "lysergic" character, but this distorted way is not how I think the music should be played. The CDs recorded on the Gabler organ in Weingarten are IMO the best of the set, probably because the large organ and opulent acoustics prevent him from playing in his preferred way.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on February 18, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
It's been some time since I listened to Isoir, but I remember enjoying the Third Clavier-Übung (Gabler-organ Weingarten), his first recording of the Toccatas at the Ahrend organ (Aurich, France) and his rendering of Die Kunst der Fuge.
The latter not being part of the integral box set, though.

In general, I found his integral rather uneven. But I remember he could be very poetic sometimes in the chorales.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 03:21:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/jphFYgijiuI

Bach - The Art of Fugue (two CDs and a DVD boxed set)
George Ritchie
ORGAN HISTORICAL SOCIETY CATALOGUE (http://www.ohscatalog.org/jsbaartoffu.html)

A brief description:

Following their very successful multimedia pack about organs in the Groningen area, Fugue State Films
http://www.fuguestatefilms.co.uk/projects.html
have just completed three new projects, "The Elusive English Organ" and "Virtuoso Music", twentieth century music from Bridlington Priory, which I haven't seen yet, and "The Art of Fugue / Desert Fugue" which I received a few days ago.

George Ritchie and Christopher Wolff discuss the Art of Fugue, followed by a discussion with two organ builders about the sort of organ best suited for the music, which, they conclude, to their satisfaction (and I am ready to be convinced) is an organ of the kind which they built for the Pinnacle Presbyterian Church in the desert town of Scottsdale, Arizona. George Ritchie speaks of how he was a student of Walcha. He had prepared a chorale prelude in four voices, and Walcha told him to omit the soprano line, to play the alto and bass lines, while singing the tenor line.

It's therefore not surprising that on the two accompanying CDs he plays the 14th Fugue in its incomplete version and then plays it again with Walcha's completion. Christopher Wolff argues that the Fugue was not incomplete - when composing a fugue with four subjects, and two of them inverted in the final section, he could only have done it by working out the closing section first, so it was not "unfinished" but rather the finish was written first and got lost before publication.

The DVD ends with a demonstration and explanation of each of the contrapuncti, in total nearly two hours. Any talk like this has to face the question of what level it should be aimed at. It's my guess that the readers of this forum will not have any difficulty following it, and may perhaps learn a thing or two. My only criticism is that when a few bars of music are shown on the screen and attention is drawn to one bar, the bar numbers displayed often begin AFTER the barline at the end of the bar and continue under the next bar. It's very off-putting until you realise that it is the way that it has been done.

The Art of Fugue is a problem for any recording studio, as it won't fit onto a single CD, but would be very sparse on its own if spread over two CDs. We therefore get, as well, several chorale preludes, some canons and the Canonic Variations on Vom Himmel hoch. The accompanying booklet gives all of the registrations used for the Art of Fugue, but not for the extras.

Very good value at the introductory price of £24.99 (and I didn't get any commission for writing this review).

David Hitchin


 :)
 
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2010, 06:03:03 AM
Dear Mr. Marchand,

Thanks a bundle for this informative story!

I already planned to buy the 'Groningen' boxset, and, wallett willing, will do so next summer .... because there will be a possibility to buy it via the Groningen Organ Society, which (a.o.) sells their cd's after organ concerts in the Martinikerk.

The Ritchie/Wolff package is tempting, too. Wolff is a scholar who's able to make difficult things sound rather easy to understand, and Ritchie is a very good Bach organist IMO.

OTOH: I already have a large amount of Künste der Fuge, played at organs. I'm more in need for some harpsichord stuff, to be honest.
But, who knows: wallett willing (again), some day Ritchie & Wolff will be mine, too. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2010, 07:31:44 AM
OTOH: I already have a large amount of Künste der Fuge, played at organs.

It's good that this topic was brought up at this time -- do you have any recommendations (apart from Walcha (Archiv)), and especially played on historical organs? I recently found a 70s recording by Herbert Tachezi, and the only "review" (http://jsbach.org/tacheziartoffugue.html) I have come across is a little bit cryptic.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on March 16, 2010, 11:35:09 AM
It's good that this topic was brought up at this time -- do you have any recommendations (apart from Walcha (Archiv)), and especially played on historical organs? I recently found a 70s recording by Herbert Tachezi, and the only "review" (http://jsbach.org/tacheziartoffugue.html) I have come across is a little bit cryptic.

I have that one on LP.  I tend to like it, but it is played on a very small chamber organ, he sort of thing you could have in your apartment, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2010, 12:57:41 PM
It's good that this topic was brought up at this time -- do you have any recommendations (apart from Walcha (Archiv)), and especially played on historical organs? I recently found a 70s recording by Herbert Tachezi, and the only "review" (http://jsbach.org/tacheziartoffugue.html) I have come across is a little bit cryptic.
Yes, cryptic message. Probably meant to advise those who do not know the composition: don't quit listening after 30 seconds .... the best is yet to come! (Or something like that.)

I don't know this AoF-issue by Tachezi, but he's one of my favourite organists .... only if basso continuo playing is concerned. ;)

As a soloist I don't appreciate him that much: my impression is that he's mostly rather stiff, and that he lacks a certain amount of intensity.
I have one Teldec/Telefunken sampler with some 'hits' and also a Mozart issue .... but I don't think there's much more Tachezi to enter the house.

This is one of my faves (Lionel Rogg / EMI), which is a nicely varied (both bold and poetic) interpretation, though not on a historic organ:

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Vivaldi-Concertos/dp/B000TDGAR0/ref=dm_ap_alb1

Rogg also offers both an unfinished AND finished final fugue (like the Ritchie DVD/CD).

On historic organs .... it's difficult to advise, because I think my fave there is Bram Beekman (Lindenberg label), which is alas OOP. But if you want a good, solid HIP-approach on a historic instrument, then you might want to give Gerhard Weinberger a try.
In general, I would say that Weinberger has given us one of the most interesting Bach organ cycles of the last decades .... not always entirely to my likings, but IMO never dull or completely 'besides the point'.
Here's a link to the last volume of his integral, the AoF, including the world premiere recording of the Choral-fantasy which was discovered in 2008 (Bernard Foccroulle followed a few months later):

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Choralfantasie-Nicht-Fugue/dp/B001AUKIZ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268772447&sr=1-1
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 16, 2010, 04:20:00 PM
Dear Mr. Marchand,

Thanks a bundle for this informative story!

My pleasure, sir!

OTOH: I already have a large amount of Künste der Fuge, played at organs. I'm more in need for some harpsichord stuff, to be honest.

Don't forget to check out the AoF by Sergio Vartolo (and his daughter) on Naxos.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 02:52:37 AM
I have that one on LP.  I tend to like it, but it is played on a very small chamber organ, he sort of thing you could have in your apartment, if I recall correctly.

Really? The pictures here (http://www.kirche-bremen.de/downloads/Die_Ahrend_in_Oberneuland.pdf) -- if it is indeed those of the pipes of organ at BremenOberneuland built by Ahrend and Brunzema -- seem to show a larger instrument.

I don't know this AoF-issue by Tachezi, but he's one of my favourite organists .... only if basso continuo playing is concerned. ;)

As a soloist I don't appreciate him that much: my impression is that he's mostly rather stiff, and that he lacks a certain amount of intensity.
I have one Teldec/Telefunken sampler with some 'hits' and also a Mozart issue .... but I don't think there's much more Tachezi to enter the house.

I also saw a 3-CD set of organ music from the Renaissance and Baroque eras. That seems tempting, however, given that it's less than $10.

Quote
This is one of my faves (Lionel Rogg / EMI), which is a nicely varied (both bold and poetic) interpretation, though not on a historic organ:


http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Vivaldi-Concertos/dp/B000TDGAR0/ref=dm_ap_alb1

Rogg also offers both an unfinished AND finished final fugue (like the Ritchie DVD/CD).

On historic organs .... it's difficult to advise, because I think my fave there is Bram Beekman (Lindenberg label), which is alas OOP. But if you want a good, solid HIP-approach on a historic instrument, then you might want to give Gerhard Weinberger a try.
In general, I would say that Weinberger has given us one of the most interesting Bach organ cycles of the last decades .... not always entirely to my likings, but IMO never dull or completely 'besides the point'.
Here's a link to the last volume of his integral, the AoF, including the world premiere recording of the Choral-fantasy which was discovered in 2008 (Bernard Foccroulle followed a few months later):

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Choralfantasie-Nicht-Fugue/dp/B001AUKIZ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268772447&sr=1-1

Thanks for those recommendations. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on March 27, 2010, 12:40:35 PM
[....] Don't forget to check out the AoF by Sergio Vartolo (and his daughter) on Naxos.
Ordered it .... at the library. So hopefully I'll be able to check this one out shortly after Easter!
Have been listening to some AoF stuff last week: Menno van Delft (harpsichord, clavichord), Alessio Corti and Kevin Bowyer. All enjoyable readings, really.
I must admit that I'm growing more used to Bowyer lately .... in a positive way. Main problem remains the cold and impersonal sound of the Marcussen organ in Odense, DK. Combined with Bowyer's rather swift and straightforward playing I'm still convinced that his Bach will never be my favourite .... but, as I said, appreciation is slowly growing.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 28, 2010, 09:15:31 AM
And having heard the Bach recording on ebs, Arte Nova should do a Bach cycle with him.

Completely agreed. But there are so many distinguished organists who´s Bach integral, I equally would like to hear:

René Saorgin, Francis Chapelet, Louis Thiery, Frantz Ramml, Holm Vogel, Rainer Oster, Martin Sander, Ulrik Spang-Hanssen, Leo van Doeselaar, Wim van der Beek, Jaroslav Tuma, Kåre Nordstoga,- to name a few.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on March 28, 2010, 09:45:50 AM
Have been listening to some AoF stuff last week: Menno van Delft (harpsichord, clavichord), Alessio Corti and Kevin Bowyer. All enjoyable readings, really.
I must admit that I'm growing more used to Bowyer lately .... in a positive way. Main problem remains the cold and impersonal sound of the Marcussen organ in Odense, DK. Combined with Bowyer's rather swift and straightforward playing I'm still convinced that his Bach will never be my favourite .... but, as I said, appreciation is slowly growing.

The Marcussen organ, Sct.Hans, Odense is indeed IMO a prototype of the cold, overbright and characterless Marcussen organ, a sound in a similar vein as Bovyers playing. And in order to appreciate his non-interventionalist style fully, one must listen to Chapuis and Guillou first.  :)


Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 06, 2010, 03:41:17 PM
Have a listen to Dutch organist Piet Wiersma (1946-2003), playing Bach on the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ of the Village church in Noordbroek, NL.
Part of the (now OOP, except for some rare copies) EuroSound series Bach in Groningen, which was left unfinished after Wiersma's sudden death.

I hope all links work well .... I'm not an experienced uploading guy. :-\

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2roqj3m.jpg)

BWV 551:
http://www.mediafire.com/?odn3jmqky2z
BWV 709:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jzwnytjjxwo
BWV 731:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0zvmmnwonng
BWV 535:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ynkyjynikh
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 07, 2010, 05:19:00 AM
Have a listen to Dutch organist Piet Wiersma (1946-2003), playing Bach on the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ of the Village church in Noordbroek, NL.
Part of the (now OOP, except for some rare copies) EuroSound series Bach in Groningen, which was left unfinished after Wiersma's sudden death.

I hope all links work well .... I'm not an experienced uploading guy. :-\

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2roqj3m.jpg)


The links are working fine, Marc. Thanks. I had never listened to Wiersma and he it's definitely another name to consider: expressive, intense, even dramatic. He apparently had great rhetorical skills. Beautiful recorded sound, too. :)   

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 07, 2010, 06:08:53 AM
Just managed to find a copy of the Rubsam set on Philips, which has become legendary because of how rare it is.  Preliminary sampling seems to indicate that it is quite good.  Comments?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 07, 2010, 06:30:59 AM
Have a listen to Dutch organist Piet Wiersma (1946-2003), playing Bach on the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ of the Village church in Noordbroek, NL.
Part of the (now OOP, except for some rare copies) EuroSound series Bach in Groningen, which was left unfinished after Wiersma's sudden death.

I hope all links work well .... I'm not an experienced uploading guy. :-\

BWV 551:
http://www.mediafire.com/?odn3jmqky2z
BWV 709:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jzwnytjjxwo
BWV 731:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0zvmmnwonng
BWV 535:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ynkyjynikh

Well, the link for 535 worked well. (I haven't downloaded the others yet.) :) Thanks.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 07, 2010, 11:33:17 AM
Just managed to find a copy of the Rübsam set on Philips, which has become legendary because of how rare it is. Preliminary sampling seems to indicate that it is quite good. Comments?
Another OOP issue that should deserve another chance. IMO, it's one of the most inspired and consistent integrals on non-historic instruments, with a more HIP-influenced Rübsam compared to his slower and more eccentric one on Naxos.

But maybe you'd like to wait a little and check this out first. Apparently sickness (I'm having some tummy troubles right now :P) is 'healthy' for the searching skills of ze human brain .... I found this interesting link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 07, 2010, 12:08:09 PM
The links are working fine, Marc. Thanks. I had never listened to Wiersma and he it's definitely another name to consider: expressive, intense, even dramatic. He apparently had great rhetorical skills. Beautiful recorded sound, too. :)
From the Dutch Wiki site (quick translation ;)): According to some he wasn't a real Bach-specialist, but others cheered him as a Bach performer with the right sense for tempi and colour. He was especially famous for his choice of registrations.

I think, in the firmly HIP-influenced Bach world in the Netherlands, some people considered him to be too romantic and not playing in the 'right' baroque style. Wiersma also played a lot of romantic and modern organ stuff and certainly did not consider himself a baroque specialist either. But he loved Bach, and he loved the old Groningen organs.
 
Personally, I truly love Wiersma's Bach. In some pieces I would prefer a faster tempo maybe, but I entirely share the above mentioned opinion about colour and registrations. And his chorale playing really moves me.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 07, 2010, 01:08:33 PM
According to some he wasn't a real Bach-specialist, but others cheered him as a Bach performer with the right sense for tempi and colour. He was especially famous for his choice of registrations.

Well, I do not know what a real Bach-specialist is. I do not at all find Wiersma romantic in the usual sense of this word. He is, as far as I can hear, a fine baroque scholar, and I think his intense expressive playing is naturally elaborated from the music. And it is individual and memorable but still unidiosyncratic.

What more can one want?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 07, 2010, 02:02:03 PM
Well, I do not know what a real Bach-specialist is. I do not at all find Wiersma romantic in the usual sense of this word. He is, as far as I can hear, a fine baroque scholar, and I think his intense expressive playing is naturally elaborated from the music. And it is individual and memorable but still unidiosyncratic.

What more can one want?
Dear Premont, full agreement here .... :)

Btw: last year I had a short chat with an organ builder from the Groningen area, who wasn't very fond of Wiersma's playing, either. Of course he also visited and visits organ recitals and about Wiersma's concerts he said something like if you've heard one, you've heard them all. I said: well, unfortunately I never had that privilige. And gave him a little smile. Then we both laughed. (He was a nice gentleman, with his own preferences of course.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:10:51 AM
One thing Piet Wiersma could have guessed beforehand: playing the Schnitger-Timpe-Van Oeckelen organ in the Groningen Der Aa-kerk for his cycle Bach in Groningen would have been .... difficult, if not impossible. Now, in the year of 2010, this instrument has been in restoration already since 1997 .... most of the time has passed in struggling and discussing about how to deal with the project.

Here are some performances on this organ, issued in 1990 by Lindenberg Books & Music. They went bankrupt in 2008 and now their productions are all officially OOP.

Bernard Winsemius (1945) plays Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 569
http://www.mediafire.com/?d4t2quylmju

Stef Tuinstra (1954) plays Chorale O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (I think this is a keyboard setting of BWV 401)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1mwj5yzomd

Winsemius: Trio Sonata in E-minor BWV 528
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdyynlztajn

Winsemius: Chorale Partita Christ, der du bist der helle Tag BWV 766
http://www.mediafire.com/?ozd31zymomu

Tuinstra: Prelude & Fugue in D-minor BWV 539
http://www.mediafire.com/?2kfkqzoow1g

If something is wrong with the links, pleaze let me knøw ....
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 08, 2010, 10:12:50 AM
Does anyone have Andre Isoir's Bach Set?
Or Volume 4 of it?

I'm looking for a CD that is described as: 3 149025 044914 (Harmonia Mundi).
I'm pretty sure that this is actually the Calliope disc here: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997)
It should contain BWV 530 but also the Choral Prelude BWV 957. Is there a disc with Isoir that definitively contains 957?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 08, 2010, 06:06:59 PM
Does anyone have Andre Isoir's Bach Set?
Or Volume 4 of it?

I'm looking for a CD that is described as: 3 149025 044914 (Harmonia Mundi).
I'm pretty sure that this is actually the Calliope disc here: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997)
It should contain BWV 530 but also the Choral Prelude BWV 957. Is there a disc with Isoir that definitively contains 957?

I have that Calliope 15-CD set.

Vol. 4 (CAL 3706 “Le monde du choral”): BWV 543, 716, 702, 572,708, 707, 720, 579, 730, 731, 574, 747, 589, 533, 733. Orgue G. Grenzing de l'abbatiale de St. Cyprien en Périgord. Recorded in 1989.

Vol. 12 (CAL 3714 “Sonate en trio 6/ Trois préludes et fugues”): BWV 530, 536, 736, 727, 653b, 943, 728, 546*, 1027ª & 1027*, 539*. Orgue G. Westenfelder de Esch-sur-Alzette/ Orgue J. Ahrend de l’église Saint Lambert d’Aurich (Frise Orientale)*. Recorded in 1979 & 1976.

BWV 957 is not included in that set; I suppose because it was considered spurious for long time.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 06:12:36 PM
One thing Piet Wiersma could have guessed beforehand: playing the Schnitger-Timpe-Van Oeckelen organ in the Groningen Der Aa-kerk for his cycle Bach in Groningen would have been .... difficult, if not impossible. Now, in the year of 2010, this instrument has been in restoration already since 1997 .... most of the time has passed in struggling and discussing about how to deal with the project.

I, for one, tend to get patient with the current attitude, that it is always preferable to perform Bach on an authentic organ.  I don't see what the clumsy mechanical linkages do to help the music.  Not that I don't see that the correct sonority is required, but a modern organ built to the same ideals as the organs of Bach's time would seem to me to be the ideal instrument.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
Does anyone have Andre Isoir's Bach Set?
Or Volume 4 of it?

I'm looking for a CD that is described as: 3 149025 044914 (Harmonia Mundi).
I'm pretty sure that this is actually the Calliope disc here: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=130997)
It should contain BWV 530 but also the Choral Prelude BWV 957. Is there a disc with Isoir that definitively contains 957?
Let me guess:
http://www.bayerische.staatsoper.de/upload/media/200912/28/13/rsys_29129_4b38a7880d0c7.pdf
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/05/music-of-nacho-duates-multiplicity.html
[dead link now]

;D

I think the Bayerische Staatsoper made a mistake in their list of sources.
The Harmonia Mundi label no. is definitely OOP now. But since Isoir's integral was first published by HM in separate discs, the BWV 530 might have been part of that one.
BWV 957 was, as Ton already mentioned, no part of that integral.

Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 08, 2010, 10:10:30 PM
Not that I don't see that the correct sonority is required, but a modern organ built to the same ideals as the organs of Bach's time would seem to me to be the ideal instrument.

But wouldn't you also require to the acoustics of the building that housed it (which usually tends to be a large German Cathedral)?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2010, 10:17:49 PM
But wouldn't you also require to the acoustics of the building that housed it (which usually tends to be a large German Cathedral)?

I read somewhere that the organs of Bach's time were normally in churches with wooden roofs, which were not particularly reverberant.  In any case, there is nothing preventing a modern organ from being installed in an appropriate venue.

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 10:28:52 PM
I, for one, tend to get patient with the current attitude, that it is always preferable to perform Bach on an authentic organ. I don't see what the clumsy mechanical linkages do to help the music. Not that I don't see that the correct sonority is required, but a modern organ built to the same ideals as the organs of Bach's time would seem to me to be the ideal instrument.
Real authentic organs from Bach's time do not exist anymore.

Nevertheless I prefer Bach or any other baroque/classical composer on a (restored) historic organ, because I think those instruments deliver more colour and (indeed) sonority than the modern or most neo-classical ones.
This is just a personal preference. It's not an attitude at all, adapted from some kind of 'general' belief about some kind of 'historical truth' which claims that it is 'always preferable' to use one specific kind of instrument.

So I would say: please enjoy your own preferences, even it's Bach on a perfect sounding 21th century digital synthesizer. I do not have any problems with that. Why should I? But I prefer the 'clumsy' Schnitgers and Silbermanns. ;)

Concerning Bach's own ideals: it's known that Bach f.i. liked the sound of the Hildebrandt organ in the Wenzelkirche at Naumburg very much. Bach and Gottfried Silbermann belonged to the main advisors. The instrument has been thoroughly restored in the period 1993-1996.  So maybe this soundclip comes close to Bach's own preferences .... check it out yourself:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zg40jrennx5

(Aria in F-Major [after Couperin] BWV 587, played by Gerhard Weinberger)

Of course this is just a small example. Volume 15 of Weinberger's integral offers a broad insight in the possibilities of this instrument:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-Vol-15/dp/B0001WGEIE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273385900&sr=1-3

Oh, btw: about the 'clumsy' mechanical linkages. Maybe it would be a nice idea to visit an organ builder in your spare time. IMHO, there's nothing clumsy about the mechanics of (neo-) historic organs. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:21:47 AM
Quote
I have that Calliope 15-CD set.

Hello Antoine,

How do you rate that set? Thanks
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 09, 2010, 02:23:30 AM
But since Isoir's integral was first published by HM in separate discs,

Never heard about HM releases of Isoirs Bach integral (and I acquired some of the individual CDs as early as 1982 - on Calliope).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:49:37 AM
Never heard about HM releases of Isoirs Bach integral (and I acquired some of the individual CDs as early as 1982 - on Calliope).
Yes, could be a misunderstanding by yours truly of the upcoming link. Maybe CALIOPE is/was a sub-label of Harmonia Mundi France?

Here's a list of Grenzing-organ recordings:

http://www.grenzing.com/cd.cfm?id=MCA

Example: Saint-Cyprien (Dordogne), Francia / Parróquia Saint-Cyprien / André Isoir / Jean-Sébastien Bach, Le Monde du Choral* L'Oeuvre pour Orgue intégral Vol. 4 / 1989, CALIOPE, harmonia mundi france (CAL 9706) 3 149025 040589

The HM labelno. looks like the one that Jens posted before. But the CAL no. is different .... and also different from the one that Ton mentioned. Probably CALIOPE gave different nos. to both the seperate and 'integrated' discs?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 03:09:19 AM
Oh, btw, right now I'm listening to this one:

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2zywieq.jpg)

Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

My first meeting with her in this oeuvre, I only heard one Buttstett issue before.

On first hearings: I think this is another good Bach interpreter, although the Fugues tend to be a bit tame.
About the SQ: a bit dry acoustics, but I like the sound of the Trost organ de la Walpurgiskirche de Großengottern (D). :)

What do the well-informed connaisseurs think about Schauerte's playing?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 03:31:37 AM
Let me guess:
http://www.bayerische.staatsoper.de/upload/media/200912/28/13/rsys_29129_4b38a7880d0c7.pdf
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/05/music-of-nacho-duates-multiplicity.html
[dead link now]

something has gone funny with my tables... so it had to be taken down.
back later today, i hope.


Quote
I think the Bayerische Staatsoper made a mistake in their list of sources.
The Harmonia Mundi label no. is definitely OOP now.

OOP doesn't make their source-listing a mistake; they obviously took the numbers right off the discs that the choreographer provided them... discs from his collection and many of them OOP, actually. The question is: where are these pieces now... what re-issues.


Quote
But since Isoir's integral was first published by HM in separate discs, the BWV 530 might have been part of that one.
BWV 957 was, as Ton already mentioned, no part of that integral.

Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1

I'll try to track BWV 957 down!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 04:28:39 AM
Oh, btw, right now I'm listening to this one:

Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

My first meeting with her in this oeuvre, I only heard one Buttstett issue before.

On first hearings: I think this is another good Bach interpreter, although the Fugues tend to be a bit tame.
About the SQ: a bit dry acoustics, but I like the sound of the Trost organ de la Walpurgiskirche de Großengottern (D). :)
On second thought: in general, I would say: Schauerte is another decent Bach interpreter, but there's not much to get really excited about. After listening, I felt more or less had the same as after listening to Kay Johannsen's recording of the Neumeister Chorales.

OOP doesn't make their source-listing a mistake; they obviously took the numbers right off the discs that the choreographer provided them... discs from his collection and many of them OOP, actually. The question is: where are these pieces now... what re-issues.
That's not what I meant, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I think that the HM no. refers to the original Isoir disc with BWV 530, and that the Bavarian mistake might be forgetting about mentioning the source disc for BWV 957. I'm quite sure that Isoir didn't make a recording of that one. There are some issues 'outside' his integral, but I couldn't find them there, either. So, who knows, maybe the BWV 957 source is indeed the Joseph Payne disc. I admit it's a wild guess, though.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 09, 2010, 04:43:16 AM
Yes, could be a misunderstanding by yours truly of the upcoming link. Maybe CALIOPE is/was a sub-label of Harmonia Mundi France?

Here's a list of Grenzing-organ recordings:

http://www.grenzing.com/cd.cfm?id=MCA

Thanks for the interesting Grenzing list.  :)

Probably Harmonia Mundi France is just the distributor of the Calliope CDs abroad.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 09, 2010, 04:53:41 AM
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2zywieq.jpg)

Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

What do the well-informed connaisseurs think about Schauerte's playing?

I have considered an investigation of Helga Schauerte´s ongoing Bach integral, but have not dared to do so yet. The reason is, that I have tried her Buxtehude, which I  find terribly contrieved, almost unlistenable. Well, her Bach may be better.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 05:17:11 AM
[....] Probably Harmonia Mundi France is just the distributor of the Calliope CDs abroad.
Yes. But also giving the discs a unique HM labelnumber. I think that no. was used by the Bavarian State Opera.

I have considered an investigation of Helga Schauerte´s ongoing Bach integral, but have not dared to do so yet. The reason is, that I have tried her Buxtehude, which I  find terribly contrieved, almost unlistenable. Well, her Bach may be better.
I paid € 9,90 for the mp3-version (download). Apparently I wanted to throw some money away, and I couldn't resist the possibility to give a new name a place in my collection. :)

The further I got listening through this recording, the more difficult it was to keep my concentration. (Which, of course, could also be my own 'fault' ;).) But since this disc contains a lot of Neumeister chorales, maybe one has to check out a disc with more demanding pieces to give a more founded opinion.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 07:03:40 AM
Hello Antoine,

How do you rate that set? Thanks

Hi, Verena. If a general description of that set were necessary, I would describe it like highly personal and a bit uneven (the entire cycle comprises recordings from 1975 to 1991).

I have enjoyed it especially because of certain poetic quality that Isoir achieves at his best. IMO his best moments usually convey certain improvisatory feeling, have a quasi-lysergic mode, a daydreaming property (in general the big chorales are a good example). 

I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir’s poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style… Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle…  :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 07:15:35 AM
Quote
Hi, Verena. If a general description of that set were necessary, I would describe it like highly personal and a bit uneven (the entire cycle comprises recordings from 1975 to 1991).

I have enjoyed it especially because of certain poetic quality that Isoir achieves at his best. IMO his best moments usually convey certain improvisatory feeling, have a quasi-lysergic mode, a daydreaming property (in general the big chorales are a good example).

I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir’s poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style… Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle…  :)

Thanks a lot, Antoine! Sounds like it's a set that I'd enjoy very much. I guess I have to buy it sooner or later (preferably the former)  ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 09, 2010, 01:29:08 PM
I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir’s poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style… Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle…  :)

Your description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
Quote
Your description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.

What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:08:54 PM
Your description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.
Being a genuine bore I just wanted to say that I feel the same way about mr. Isoir's Bach as gentlemen Ton K. & AvantMontagne. ;D

What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(
Dare I make another mention of this link?
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e
It's a download possibility of another OOP integral, the first one of Wolfgang Rübsam (for Philips).
For the rest: based on the two or three discs I've listened to, I would not recommend Chapuis. Preston offers good Trio Sonatas and Third Clavier-Übung (AKA Orgelmesse), but I'm not that fond of his cat on a hot tin roof way of playing in many of the large choral-free works.

Walcha is good, solid, generally non-legato playing with great respect for detail and polyphony, but maybe a bit old-fashioned in registrating and dynamics.
The second set of Marie-Claire Alain (on non-historic organs) is still available, and that's a good choice .... though without the Neumeister chorales.
If you like historic instruments, then both Gerhard Weinberger and Bernard Foccroulle offer great integrals IMO. It's almost impossible to get entirely pleased in such a large oeuvre, but both maintain a high level throughout.

Oh, and if you want to have fun, combined with some useful advice (one never knows ;)): just download this entire thread and read it! :D
For instance: a quick download per page in Notepad. Members like Antoine Marchand, Premont, Bulldog, Que and many others have written here with great enthousiasm about these organ works and their performers. It's nice reading stuff and, FWIW, they all gave me great advices! :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 09, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(

Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 09, 2010, 02:14:08 PM
Crossing posts, Marc - show how much we actually agree on this. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:16:42 PM
Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.
And .... Alessio Corti, and .... Bram Beekman.
Rübsam has got that mp3-link I mentioned.

Still available and another possibility: Ton Koopman on Teldec. Reissued (like Foccroulle on Ricercar) in a nicely priced set. One has to be in a 'certain' mood to enjoy his playing, but let's be fair to the man: sure, sometimes he's too playful in a juvenile way ;), but he sure can play some very moving chorale stuff IMO! And there are some nice organs in his set, too!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:17:49 PM
Crossing posts, Marc - show how much we actually agree on this. :)
Mmm, maybe I ruined it with my added Koopman story? :-[
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 02:31:52 PM
Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.

For what it's worth: Yes on Walcha, but on his second integral (the first one is far from integral, in any case, and not nearly as interesting, I find).

Also: Yes on Alain II, which you can get for a good price from Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K) (Best deal I know of, even if you're in the US.)
Yes, too, on Koopman, but he's not at all available in the US yet.
If you are interested in Alain at all, this is BY FAR the least expensive way:
Amazon.fr, used, like new (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.fr%2Fgp%2Foffer-listing%2FB001EVPBPS%3Fie%3DUTF8%26ref_%3Ddp%5Folp%5Fused%26qid%3D1273444278%26sr%3D1-58%26condition%3Dused&tag=nectarandambrfr-21&linkCode=ur2&camp=1642&creative=19458)

Having listened to it for the first time in many years, my opinion of Stockmeir has actually gone UP considerably: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR)

(for reference: the sets i've got on my shelves (and listened to, since that's apparently not one and the same at GMG) are:

Walcha I, II
Alain II
Koopman (Warner)
Weinberger
Stockmeier
Fagius
Rogg II
Vernet

+

about half of Bowers,
about half of Berlin Classics' "Silbermann" cycle

Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 02:41:12 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/?zg40jrennx5

(Aria in F-Major [after Couperin] BWV 587, played by Gerhard Weinberger)

Of course this is just a small example. Volume 15 of Weinberger's integral offers a broad insight in the possibilities of this instrument:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-Vol-15/dp/B0001WGEIE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273385900&sr=1-3

Oh, btw: about the 'clumsy' mechanical linkages. Maybe it would be a nice idea to visit an organ builder in your spare time. IMHO, there's nothing clumsy about the mechanics of (neo-) historic organs. :)

I have the Weinberger cycle, I don't recall if I've heard volume 15 yet.  My comments about the antique actions come from Marie-Clair Alain, who in the notes to one of her cycles (I don't recall if it was the 2nd or 3rd, I've had both at one time or another) commented that confronting the manual of the restored organs gave her a new respect for the performers of the era and by necessity changed the way she performed the works.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:43:28 PM
For what it's worth: Yes on Walcha, but on his second integral (the first one is far from integral, in any case, and not nearly as interesting, I find).

Also: Yes on Alain II, which you can get for a good price from Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000RZOR2K?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000RZOR2K) (Best deal I know of, even if you're in the US.)

Having listened to it for the first time in many years, my opinion of Stockmeir has actually gone UP considerably: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR)

(for reference: the sets i've got on my shelves (and listened to, since that's apparently not one and the same at GMG) are:

Walcha I, II
Alain II
Koopman (Warner)
Weinberger
Stockmeier
Fagius
Rogg II
Vernet

+

about half of Bowers,
about half of Berlin Classics' "Silbermann" cycle
Jens! You hit some spots there! I forgot to mention the satisfying results of Stockmeier, Fagius and Vernet. (These three are still available.)
Again, I pushed the 'send' buttom too hastily. :-[

But still, Verena can check out the entire thread .... I recall that about two months ago we were also discussing the 'best' integral. Rogg II is OOP .... and concerning Walcha I (mono), I personally don't agree that it's less interesting as his second (stereo). But sure, the mono sound might be unattractive to some (although it's quite good, considering the recording years 1947-1952).

About completeness: sure, Walcha I is far from complete, but that goes for Walcha II, too. And for many others. And guys like Bowyer and Weinberger are almost over-complete.

Ah, before I forget: another non-complete integral ;) I can recommend is the one by American organist George Ritchie (Raven). Only 11 discs, but very worthwhile listening!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 02:52:37 PM
Thanks so much, Marc, jlaurson, premont for your great advice!!! The idea of saving the whole thread with notepad is also great, Marc. I guess the Alain II set will be the first I'll buy - it's really affordable since I don't have to pay shipping costs; but some of the others will certainly have to follow as soon as the money is available ...
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:53:44 PM
I have the Weinberger cycle, I don't recall if I've heard volume 15 yet.  My comments about the antique actions come from Marie-Clair Alain, who in the notes to one of her cycles (I don't recall if it was the 2nd or 3rd, I've had both at one time or another) commented that confronting the manual of the restored organs gave her a new respect for the performers of the era and by necessity changed the way she performed the works.
I see. I think it would be her 3rd then. In that one, Alain opted for historical organs only. And yes, it's a different way of playing, I'm pretty convinced of that. It's more hard labour. In many cases the pedals are shorter, too. So this makes toe-heel playing fairly impossible. Hence the HIP-hypothesis that this 'ancient' music should be played non-legato, simply because legato playing was technically very difficult or even impossible.

Ton Koopman for instance always likes to tell his tale about my short legs, which meant that he was forced to use only his toes. Without even attending or reading a HIP-approved lecture or book, he already did it 'right'. :)

And Virgil Fox was flabbergasting his American audiences with his Bach playing on modern organs, but in Europe he couldn't handle the oldies at all .... or so the story goes.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 02:57:09 PM

Walcha I (mono), I personally don't agree that it's less interesting as his second (stereo). But sure, the mono sound might be unattractive to some (although it's quite good, considering the recording years 1947-1952).

If nothing else, we can agree on the sound; the reason I don't really find Walcha I all that recommendable is not the sound which, apart from a bit of traffic noise and the natural 'grain' you'd expect from recordings that old, is much better than I feared it might be.

Rogg II is OOP but still can be had via Amazon.fr (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000027OAA?ie=UTF8&tag=nectarandambrfr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B000027OAA) at reasonable prices. It's where I got my copy from, and it made me happy.  ;D

@Verena, I think Alain II is a very good place to start, indeed.

@Scarpia: That comment of Alain's was on her third cycle.

@Marc: Didn't Alain move specifically to all-toe playing for her integral no.3?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:58:12 PM
Thanks so much, Marc, jlaurson, premont for your great advice!!! The idea of saving the whole thread with notepad is also great, Marc. I guess the Alain II set will be the first I'll buy - it's really affordable since I don't have to pay shipping costs; but some of the others will certainly have to follow as soon as the money is available ...
It's a rock-solid choice!
I would like to add the possibility of buying single organ discs, too. There are many skilled performers who never did an integral, but delivered some gems! Like Gustav Leonhardt .... and a lot of others. You'll stumble upon their names whilst digging through this thread, I'm sure. :)

@Jens: Vive La France!
(Though I just hid my wallett, before getting tempted.)

Another @Jens: dunno about Alain III and her own adaptations really, except that she picked the oldies for that one. But yes, to truthful HIP-sters the all-toe playing is essential!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 03:01:39 PM
It's a rock-solid choice!
I would like to add the Possibility of buying single organ discs, too. There are many skilled performers who never did an integral, but delivered some gems! Like Gustav Leonhardt .... and a lot of others. You'll stumble upon their names whilst digging through this thread, I'm sure. :)

Speaking of single discs: I know not everyone is quite as high off that set as I am, but enough share my passion that it's worth considering:

Karl Richter's 3 CD set (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006ZFQMQ/nectarandambr-20) is staggering in several instances. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html)

Also: Organ Mass with Bowyers. Art of the Fugue with Isoir.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
Richter's 3 CD set and a Leonhardt CD just found their way into my shopping basket..  ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 04:04:58 PM
Richter's 3 CD set and a Leonhardt CD just found their way into my shopping basket..  ::)

Can't hold a candle to Richter's previous organ recital

(http://www.classicrecords.co.uk/photos/SXL2219.jpg)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 04:07:33 PM
Quote
Can't hold a candle to Richter's previous organ recital

and that one's only available on LP, right?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 04:10:18 PM
and that one's only available on LP, right?

I have it on CD (from the "Classic Sound" series). 

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Recital-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000042GR/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273450152&sr=8-5
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 04:39:28 PM
Quote
I have it on CD (from the "Classic Sound" series).

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Recital-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000042GR/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273450152&sr=8-5

Perfect. Not even particularly expensive. Many Thanks!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 04:56:10 PM
This double-CD is also an excellent option:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21E0GYGF6AL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt

$14.95, new and $6.49 used on the AMP (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Great-Organ-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000029Y5/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273452615&sr=8-17).

 :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 05:28:07 PM
Quote
This double-CD is also an excellent option:


Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt

$14.95, new and $6.49 used on the AMP.

 :)

Thanks Antoine!! I'll snap it up. If it weren't for the market place sellers, I'd be poorer than a church mouse.   ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2010, 06:10:10 PM
Perfect. Not even particularly expensive. Many Thanks!

Beware, very non-HIP, performed on the organ in Victoria Hall (the home the l'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 09, 2010, 06:38:56 PM
Quote
Beware, very non-HIP, performed on the organ in Victoria Hall (the home the l'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande).

I'm no longer the HIP-PIE that I formerly was, so I may still give it a try .. Thanks for making me aware of this.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 10, 2010, 02:36:51 PM
This double-CD is also an excellent option:
Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt
Agreement here. It's a gem.

FWIW: I placed a link before, with a download possibility of the Rübsam-Philips integral.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e

Dunno if there's a reliable track-list included. Thanx to a good friend I can offer a link with scans of the booklet. So, for anyone who's interested in downloading mr. Rübsam's very good OOP first integral, here are the scans (in a zip-file):
http://www.mediafire.com/?wmhjj03wken

And I couldn't resist to upload some more OOP stuff:

Piet Wiersma playing the Lohman organ (1817) of the Reformed Church of Eenrum, NL. His last recordings, only a few hours before his sudden death.
Fantasia & Fugue in C-minor BWV 562/574
http://www.mediafire.com/?mmma2yyzdnm (http://www.mediafire.com/?mmma2yyzdnm)

To compare: Alessio Corti playing the neo-classical Tamburini organ della Chiesa Christiana Protestante in Milano.
Fantasia & Fugue in C-minor BWV 562/574
http://www.mediafire.com/?n12jnnzhzlu (http://www.mediafire.com/?n12jnnzhzlu)

About the coupling of BWV 562 and 574: I simply like them together. In Corti's OOP integral, BWV 562 and 574 are separate, yet successive tracks. So he might agree with me. And Walter Kraft, who did the same, too. 8)

Two chorale arrangements:
Bram Beekman playing the famous Van Hagerbeer/Schnitger organ of the St. Laurenskerk in Alkmaar, NL.
Wir glauben all' an einen Gott BWV 740
http://www.mediafire.com/?lnwmytedtey (http://www.mediafire.com/?lnwmytedtey)

Alessio Corti playing the Tamburini organ della Chiesa di Santa Maria Segreta in Milano.
Erbarm' dich mein, o Herre Gott BWV 721
http://www.mediafire.com/?02iwtwz2mkd (http://www.mediafire.com/?02iwtwz2mkd)

Both these chorales are considered spurious by some scholars. But I love them anyway. (And why not? :))
BWV 740 could be composed or arranged by Johann Ludwig Krebs, one of Bach's most talented pupils.
And from the first time I heard BWV 721 (in a church service at Good Friday 2009, in the intermission between the two parts of Bach's SJ Passion), it reminded me of the Erbarme dich, mein Gott aria from the Matthäus-Passion. To me, there's a striking resemblance in the idea of teardrops falling in the bass.

Again: if the links aren't working or creating any problems, please let me know.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 10, 2010, 08:11:51 PM
Re Rogg: there are these three budget double CDs from EMI
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ll8ckctyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PZgViaDKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fv9bic1yL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

At least some of these are recent (2007/2009) remasterings.

Re: Alain

I have a single CD from Erato in which Alain plays the Schubler Chorales, and various Fugues and allied works (BWV numbers 565,564,582,578,566).  There's no recording data other than a release date of 1981 from Erato's Collection Bonsai.  Anyone know where this fits into Alain's cycles?  The CD, which is one of the first CDs I ever bought (meaning about the mid-80s) doesn't seem to correspond to anything offered by Amazon or Arkiv.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2010, 02:56:55 AM
[....]
Re: Alain

I have a single CD from Erato in which Alain plays the Schubler Chorales, and various Fugues and allied works (BWV numbers 565,564,582,578,566).  There's no recording data other than a release date of 1981 from Erato's Collection Bonsai.  Anyone know where this fits into Alain's cycles?  The CD, which is one of the first CDs I ever bought (meaning about the mid-80s) doesn't seem to correspond to anything offered by Amazon or Arkiv.
Probably this one:

(http://i40.tinypic.com/6dvi29.jpg)

http://www.amazon.de/Orgelwerke-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000024EM6

And maybe this was the Bonsai cover:

(http://i39.tinypic.com/537fcj.jpg)

Alain did 3 integrals (the first never reissued on cd).
In between, she did a few other 'single' recordings, too.
Nevertheless I think that this one is a sampler from her 2nd integral, considering the Erato Bonsai year of 1981.

Alain did f.i. some other 565, 578 and 582 recordings in August 1982 at the Schwenkedel organ de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat. That one was released in 1983, and reissued in 1985 with a different cover.
Because of the recording date, these performances can't be the same as 'yours'. But the timings are more or less the same as in her 2nd integral, which makes things a bit complicated. Apparently she was rather consistent in her interpretation during those years, which might even indicate that your disc contains other performances than the ones of her 2nd integral.

Are there any organs mentioned at your disc?
Because if so, then this information might help:
For the 2nd integral, Alain used these organs:
BWV 565, 564, 566: Marcussen organ, Sankt Nikolai Kirke, Kolding, Danmark.
BWV 578: Metzler organ, Mariastein Basilica, Switzerland.
BWV 582 & 645-650: Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France.

Well, I hope that somewhere in this post an answer to your question is given. :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 11, 2010, 06:32:51 AM
Alain did f.i. some other 565, 578 and 582 recordings in August 1982 at the Schwenkedel organ de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat. That one was released in 1983, and reissued in 1985 with a different cover.

This is your source I suppose:

http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.eng.rch&org=%22Marie-Claire+ALAIN%22&tit=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=90&cmd=Previous

BTW I have not made an A/B test, but I never found any reasonable reason to doubt, that the Bonsai CD contains exclusively recordings from the second integral, which I already knew relatively well (LP´s), when I acquired the Bonsai CD. But you may be right, that the consistency in her interpretations may make the question of other sources actual. Have you got any information about the cover for the Saint-Donat recording from 1982?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2010, 07:35:10 AM
This is your source I suppose:

http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.eng.rch&org=%22Marie-Claire+ALAIN%22&tit=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=90&cmd=Previous

BTW I have not made an A/B test, but I never found any reasonable reason to doubt, that the Bonsai CD contains exclusively recordings from the second integral, which I already knew relatively well (LP´s), when I acquired the Bonsai CD. But you may be right, that the consistency in her interpretations may make the question of other sources actual. Have you got any information about the cover for the Saint-Donat recording from 1982?
Well, at first I was pretty much convinced 'bout that 2nd integral story, but the image of the backcover of Kishnevi's disc at Amazon.de (link posted before) gives the idea, although it's hardly legible, that only two organs were 'used' for the 'Bonsai' cd: the Marcussen and Schwenkedel. Which doesn't correspond with the little research I did earlier today .... but maybe Erato did some sloppy source mentioning. This happens sometimes with sampler discs.

Here are the pics:
The first pic is of the vinyl issue of 1983, which btw was the first organ recording I bought myself. It was also issued on CD and MC.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/fkzlvc.jpg)

The second pic: cd reissue of 1985.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/1z71y11.jpg)

About the sources: in almost every searching matter, I use Google first :) or, in specific Bach cases, I immediately check Bachcantatas.com. Thanks to both I could acquire recording data and pics of these discs .... :)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2010, 10:53:34 AM
Plz plz plz, let me upload one more .... :-[.
A special one for moderator Que: Ewald Kooiman is playing the Concerto in A-minor, BachWorshipsVivaldi 593, at the Hinsz-organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
http://www.mediafire.com/?25t5jggyymm
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 11, 2010, 02:07:22 PM
Here are the pics:
The first pic is of the vinyl issue of 1983, which btw was the first organ recording I bought myself. It was also issued on CD and MC.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/fkzlvc.jpg)


So she recorded the Passacaglia twice on the same organ (Saint-Donat) during a period of 2 - 3 years?? Strange, since the first of these recordings (the 2. integral recording) hardly could be bettered.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 11, 2010, 08:29:11 PM
Well, at first I was pretty much convinced 'bout that 2nd integral story, but the image of the backcover of Kishnevi's disc at Amazon.de (link posted before) gives the idea, although it's hardly legible, that only two organs were 'used' for the 'Bonsai' cd: the Marcussen and Schwenkedel. Which doesn't correspond with the little research I did earlier today .... but maybe Erato did some sloppy source mentioning. This happens sometimes with sampler discs.

Here are the pics:
The first pic is of the vinyl issue of 1983, which btw was the first organ recording I bought myself. It was also issued on CD and MC.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/fkzlvc.jpg)

The second pic: cd reissue of 1985.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/1z71y11.jpg)

About the sources: in almost every searching matter, I use Google first :) or, in specific Bach cases, I immediately check Bachcantatas.com. Thanks to both I could acquire recording data and pics of these discs .... :)

I'll go on the hypothesis that my CD originated in the second cycle. 
I should mention that the timings on my CD differ on each track from the timings shown at the Amazon.de link by anywhere from four to sixteen seconds , with my CD always being the shorter one.

There's no hint on the Bonsai CD of what organs were used or when, or anything useful other than the copyright date.  (And the cover differs slightly from the one shown in Marc's post: it is a white background with a photo of the Bonsai tree on the bottom half.

Come to think of it, Erato gave more information about the tree on the CD cover then they did about the recording data.)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Que on May 11, 2010, 10:34:57 PM
Plz plz plz, let me upload one more .... :-[.
A special one for moderator Que: Ewald Kooiman is playing the Concerto in A-minor, BachWorshipsVivaldi 593, at the Hinsz-organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
http://www.mediafire.com/?25t5jggyymm

Much appreciated, Marc! :) :-*
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 11, 2010, 11:35:14 PM
Anyone interested in Demessieux? I found this link; I rather like her playing, but then, I'm no specialist:
http://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2010/02/blog-post.html
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 11, 2010, 11:49:16 PM
Quote
Re Rogg: there are these three budget double CDs from EMI




At least some of these are recent (2007/2009) remasterings.

These do look tempting.  ::)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2010, 02:11:05 AM
Anyone interested in Demessieux? I found this link; I rather like her playing, but then, I'm no specialist:
http://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2010/02/blog-post.html
Any link of this kind is interesting in my book. :)
Thanks for posting, and let's get back to the fifties!
Where's my Brylcreem?

Re Rogg: there are these three budget double CDs from EMI [....]
At least some of these are recent (2007/2009) remasterings.
These do look tempting. ::)
Did you win a lottery recently or what? :P
Anyway: Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge is a must-have IMO. He also offers a completed 'final Fugue'. The other discs are fine examples of solid Bach organ playing, all chorale-free works btw. There are some experienced Rogg-listeners somewhere on this board, like Bulldog Don and (of course) a certain mr. Premont. From what I've read in reviews and in forums, I think most of the Rogg-connaisseurs value his earlier Harmonia Mundi recordings more than the EMI ones. Alas: the HM integral is officially OOP and the EMI integral has never been issued on CD. The first is available on some sites though (like Amazon.fr) and maybe the latter will be rereleased by EMI the upcoming years. At least they made a start.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Verena on May 12, 2010, 03:19:28 AM
Quote
    These do look tempting. ::)


Did you win a lottery recently or what? :P

No, because, if I had won, I would not feell tempted any longer, I'd simply buy them ..  ;D
On the other hand, I do plan to win the lottery in the foreseeable future (of course)
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Jeffrey Smith on May 12, 2010, 07:12:41 PM
While at the Vox website, I noticed this one being announced as a " new" release
(http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.jpg)
http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.htm
Price is given as $50 inside the USA, $70 outside. 

Worth getting or no?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: sTisTi on May 13, 2010, 10:11:21 AM

FWIW: I placed a link before, with a download possibility of the Rübsam-Philips integral.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e

Again: if the links aren't working or creating any problems, please let me know.

Thank you for the links, I downloaded the files. Although the downloading worked fine, however, the following tracks came up with a checksum error when I unpacked them:
7-04 Allein Gott in der Höh' sei Ehr', BWV 771
9-01 Gott der Vater wohn' uns bei, BWV 748
15-21 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus V
16-15 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus XIV

Can anyone confirm this problem? The affected files stop playing about halfway through, except the last one, which works despite the checksum error (at least in WinAmp...) .
Some of the other files seem to be irregular as well, a program I regularly use for checking MP3 files ("EncSpot") refuses to even read some of the tracks, e.g. tracks 9-10 to 9-22, although they play OK in Winamp :-\

Any ideas?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Opus106 on May 13, 2010, 10:30:19 AM
Thank you for the links, I downloaded the files. Although the downloading worked fine, however, the following tracks came up with a checksum error when I unpacked them:
7-04 Allein Gott in der Höh' sei Ehr', BWV 771
9-01 Gott der Vater wohn' uns bei, BWV 748
15-21 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus V
16-15 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus XIV

Can anyone confirm this problem? The affected files stop playing about halfway through, except the last one, which works despite the checksum error (at least in WinAmp...) .
Some of the other files seem to be irregular as well, a program I regularly use for checking MP3 files ("EncSpot") refuses to even read some of the tracks, e.g. tracks 9-10 to 9-22, although they play OK in Winamp :-\

Any ideas?

Sometimes when you download the file again, it will come through properly.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 13, 2010, 12:16:15 PM
Sometimes when you download the file again, it will come through properly.
And if this doesn't help, maybe it's a thought to ask your question here? Forums like those can be very helpful! :)

http://forums.winamp.com/
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: sTisTi on May 13, 2010, 12:58:21 PM
And if this doesn't help, maybe it's a thought to ask your question here? Forums like those can be very helpful! :)

http://forums.winamp.com/
It's not a WinAmp problem, the files I mentioned give a CRC error when they are extracted from the rar archive. I re-downloaded the dubious parts and the new download has the same damaged files as the first one, so the problem very likely lies in the original files. Or did anyone get a working version of the following files?:
7-04 Allein Gott in der Höh' sei Ehr', BWV 771
9-01 Gott der Vater wohn' uns bei, BWV 748
15-21 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus V
16-15 Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080_ Contrapunctus XIV

They are in parts 05, 09 and 10 of the rar archive. Please check for error messages when extracting these files and whether they can be played through to the end. Thank you!
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 13, 2010, 01:54:09 PM
For those who have problems with these four BWV's, here's an extra upload.

BWV 771:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdymtmyhojw
BWV 748:
http://www.mediafire.com/?m5klzd1mmwd
BWV 1080 - V:
http://www.mediafire.com/?huwdiemwnaa
BWV 1080 - XIV:
http://www.mediafire.com/?c4anyt2ywx2

If problems occur, please let me know.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Marc on May 14, 2010, 03:43:43 AM
While at the Vox website, I noticed this one being announced as a " new" release
(http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.jpg)
http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.htm
Price is given as $50 inside the USA, $70 outside. 

Worth getting or no?
Yes.

Why?

Because I listen to Kraft from time to time, and enjoy him. ;)
His readings are less analytic, more 'bold' and 'free' than Walcha's. He's playing on a nice selection of historical organs. The recordings sometimes sound a bit harsh. But in general, I certainly wouldn't advice against it.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 14, 2010, 08:38:44 AM
Anyway: Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge is a must-have IMO. He also offers a completed 'final Fugue'. The other discs are fine examples of solid Bach organ playing, all chorale-free works btw. There are some experienced Rogg-listeners somewhere on this board, like Bulldog Don and (of course) a certain mr. Premont. From what I've read in reviews and in forums, I think most of the Rogg-connaisseurs value his earlier Harmonia Mundi recordings more than the EMI ones.

Fully agreed. The Harmonia Mundi recording on the J.A. Silbermann organ of the Cathedral of Arlesheim is a fine and consistent if far from complete set. The dark character of the organ and the strict but rather introvert and reflective interpretation makes it almost mandatory listening.
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: (: premont :) on May 14, 2010, 08:50:29 AM
While at the Vox website, I noticed this one being announced as a " new" release
(http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.jpg)
http://voxcd.com/VOX/MC191.htm
Price is given as $50 inside the USA, $70 outside. 

Worth getting or no?

A bit oldfashioned but nevertheless very impressive and certainly recommendable. Tempi on the slow side, a bit more legato than we expect nowadays, but telling agogics and in chorale free works generally scholary registrations even measured with the standard of to day. Registrations of chorales generally colourful, but not romantic, rather affective (and effective).
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 14, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
A bit oldfashioned but nevertheless very impressive and certainly recommendable. Tempi on the slow side, a bit more legato than we expect nowadays, but telling agogics and in chorale free works generally scholary registrations even measured with the standard of to day. Registrations of chorales generally colourful, but not romantic, rather affective (and effective).

Do you know his Buxtehude, Premont?
Title: Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
Post by: sTisTi on May 14, 2010, 08:59:42 AM
For those who have problems with these four BWV's, here's an extra upload.

BWV 771:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdymtmyhojw
BWV 748:
http://w