I've long enjoyed this piece under the direction of Pierre Boulez, who I consider one of the finer Mahler interpreters, and the VPO and Micheal Schade.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DVKA1VDZL._AA240_.jpg)
I am however, interested to hear Dietrich Fischer-Deskau with Leonard Bernstein. I've only recently become fond of Lenny with Mahler (Titan), and look forward to learning/listening more.
I read a couple of positive reviews, and the rating on amazon seems rather assuring.
Any comments?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KBZQHNNYL._AA240_.jpg)
I never heard Boulez version, but the Bernstein is the best among those who use two male voices.
Nevertheless, I prefer versions using an alto voice. Ludwig and Wunderlich with Klemperer is my favorite, not forgetting Patzak, Ferrier, Walter, and Forrester with Reiner.
Quote from: val on May 02, 2007, 11:22:54 PM
I never heard Boulez version, but the Bernstein is the best among those who use two male voices.
Nevertheless, I prefer versions using an alto voice. Ludwig and Wunderlich with Klemperer is my favorite, not forgetting Patzak, Ferrier, Walter, and Forrester with Reiner.
Don't forget Haitink, an absolute classics of the repertoire !
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2007, 04:14:23 AM
Don't forget Haitink, an absolute classics of the repertoire !
What is it that you enjoy about the Haitink,
PerfectWagnerite?
Do you have a preference between Bernstein/Boulez?
I'm with Val on this one but Bernstein's conducting is so alluring it is, as far as I'm concerned, a must-have.
A female voice in Der Abschied is more moving. Both versions, therefore, are required.
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:06:55 AM
What is it that you enjoy about the Haitink, PerfectWagnerite?
Do you have a preference between Bernstein/Boulez?
I like Janet Baker and James King as soloists. Their voices complement each other nicely. Baker a warm expressive mezzo-voice with good diction and great word-painting. Her entire range is so easy on the ears, her top really rings but is never shrill. James King's baritone-sounding voice is kind of the yang to Janet Baker's yin. I can't imagine a better combination of soloists. The Concertgebouw's Mahler tradition is miraculously displayed here. Just listen to those suspended octaves in the final song. I guess Haitink is okay here. He knows he is never going to get two soloists as fine as the two here so he knows enough to stay out of their way and do what he does best, accompany.
The Bernstein is on my wish-list. I have absolutely no interest in Boulez - I think he is a horrible Mahler conductor in general, people on this board loves him though.
I also really like Reiner. I heard it on the radio one mid-night and it is gorgeous. The recording is rather thin (maybe it is just FM) but I think Maureen Forrester is a must hear. Unfortunately I am having trouble finding a cheap copy out there.
The live Baker/Kubelik disc on Audite is well regarded and one I've been lusting after. It's a little hard to get though. I recently ordered it and it turned out to be unavailable.
Quote from: Hector on May 03, 2007, 06:09:50 AM
A female voice in Der Abschied is more moving.
I wonder if women listeners think so, too . . . .
Quote from: E d o on May 03, 2007, 06:58:33 AM
The live Baker/Kubelik disc on Audite is well regarded and one I've been lusting after. It's a little hard to get though. I recently ordered it and it turned out to be unavailable.
In stock (
Artikel am Lager) at JPC:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4955805/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist
Sarge
Quote from: E d o on May 03, 2007, 06:58:33 AM
The live Baker/Kubelik disc on Audite is well regarded and one I've been lusting after. It's a little hard to get though. I recently ordered it and it turned out to be unavailable.
I've ordered it (used) this afternoon, funnily enough!:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000669K1/202-4351466-9240634
I've just acquired his live 1 on the same label and it's very good, so thought I'ld take a plunge with DLvdE
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:06:55 AM
What is it that you enjoy about the Haitink, PerfectWagnerite Sarge?
Janet Baker...and the heavenly length of
Der AbschiedQuote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 06:06:55 AM
Do you have a preference between Bernstein/Boulez?
Bernstein. Boulez doesn't connect emotionally with this music. I don't hear in the music, as interpreted by Boulez, what the poetry is expressing. I like several discs in Boulez's Mahler cycle but this isn't one of them.
My favorites: Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig
Haitink/King/Baker
Barenboim/Jerusalem/Meier
Sanderling/Schreier/Finnila
Sarge
it's amazing, i think i saw the original poems in Chinese once on some website once.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on May 03, 2007, 07:40:18 AM
it's amazing, i think i saw the original poems in Chinese once on some website once.
You can find it here:
http://www.mahlerarchives.net/DLvDE/DLvDE.htm
just click on the song you want.
I think the German text captures the spirit of the original Chinese nicely, don't you?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 03, 2007, 07:56:56 AM
You can find it here:
http://www.mahlerarchives.net/DLvDE/DLvDE.htm
just click on the song you want.
I think the German text captures the spirit of the original Chinese nicely, don't you?
yeah, that's the website that i was talking about, thank you.
yes, Tang poems with music, very nice combination.
Copied from the old site.....BTW, the Bernstein is good, the tenor perhaps a bit light, FD is excellent.
I have been listening to my newly acquired Kubelik recording of Mahler's The Song of the Earth, bought on recommendation from several posters; for which MANY thanks. I have been sampling some of my other versions along side and am sharing the following thoughts.
Although stated to be live, unlike the Leppard version, there are no chronic coughers. In that performance several of the audience are well recorded for posterity along with Janet Baker and a strenuous John Mitchinson. But, despite the audience being silent for Kubelik, it cannot have been through boredom. This is a version that grips and penetrates deep into this mysterious world.
The ancient Chinese poems were filtered first through French and then German adaptations and Mahler made some additional alterations. The final song, lasting around half an hour, is as long as all the other five songs put together. The work includes despair, resignation, observations on youth, friendship and on parting. There is a song by a drunk, bitter in his isolation. Mahler again highlights his preoccupation with death. By 1907 his own fatal heart disease had been diagnosed. He described the work as a 'symphony with voices'; it was unnumbered, but came after the Eighth Symphony. Mahler was in part avoiding the omen of completing a ninth symphony; the total produced by Beethoven and Bruckner, two giants whose output Mahler was afraid he would not exceed before death claimed him. Despite this attempt to cheat fate, he did die before completing his tenth symphony.
I have been running the new version up against the other two with Janet Baker, Haitink and Leppard and Tennstedt, Klemperer and Levine.
Several times I heard Janet Baker sing in this work, she never had a tenor partner who came up to her standard and neither the Leppard nor the Haitink seemed to me to measure up to my memories of how she communicated when I heard her. The Kubelik certainly makes up for that. But we are nowhere without the conductors, so what of them.
Tennstedt is about the slowest, that does not mean much on its own. He and Levine each take 67 minutes, Klemperer and Kubelik 62, Haitink 64. ( Walter's famous Decca version is shortest at 60 minutes) However I feel there are two basic approaches. There is a detached stoic approach best epitomised by Klemperer and there is a more overt grief laden path taken by Tennstedt, Levine and Kubelik.
In the past I have found Kubelik a bit cool, sane and under emotional for how I like my Mahler. Though his version of the First Symphony is my favourite. However here, live, he fuels the music with energy and emotion. The extended orchestral passage in the middle of the final song is like a full symphony compressed and ultra expressive. The orchestra sound great with expressive playing from the soloists at various points. The first song is unleashed upon us and the lonely one in Autumn, the Alto's first song, is tender. He races Janet Baker through the imagery of the galloping horses in the fourth song and she only just holds on. I think that is the only tempo I would change, and it is over in a few seconds.
Tennstedt to my mind relaxes the pace when he wants to draw our attention to detail and I feel the piece slows too often. Levine's is a version I am constantly surprised that I like. I have said the orchestral sound it too fat, but I was wrong, it is glossy. Beautiful playing, the sound is glamorous. I am not suggesting that is wrong, just that it is a different sound world from Klemperer. His version sounds hewn in stone, unyielding, stoic but not at all disinterested. It has long been one of my favourites despite the lack of obvious emotion. He has the best equipped tenor in Fritz Wunderlich who launches himself against the mountains of sound in the first song. It is terrifically exciting. He has sweetness of tone in his third song. But, his word pointing is not detailed and those singers with lesser equipment work harder with the words. Waldemar Kmentt for Kubelik is clearly strained by the high lying passages of his second song, but he uses the words to create three dimensional characters, especially in the bitterness of 'The Drunk Man in Spring'. An intelligent singer. King for Haitink is in better voice, but he is faceless. That epitomises Haitink's approach, famous for not getting in the way of the composer, I don't respond in my guts to his detachment. Baker sings well for him, but there is a lot more variation in tone colour to her performance with Kubelik, despite it having been recorded earlier. I like the placing of the voices in the Kubelik, they have presence and they are forward rather than integrated. Personal taste, but that's how I like it so I can hear all the expression. Baker is wonderful, she dares threads of tone and has heft to deal thrillingly with appropriate passages.
Ludwig for Klemperer is a different kind of singer and in any case she is according with the restrained approach of Klemperer. She never deployed the variety of tone that was Baker's hallmark, but the voice is grave and beautiful. Jessye Norman for Levine is as good as any and the music sounds as though it was written for her voice. Supposedly a soprano, she plumbs the ledger lines with the tone of a contralto. She has a tendency to slide expressively up to notes, but although it may disturb some, it does not disturb me. Her Abschied is terrific. She is partnered by Siegfried Jerusalem, he is nearest to Wunderlich, but with more word painting. He manages all kinds of full, half and soft tone in that strenuous second song. Levine, despite being slower than some is not sluggish. He pushes Norman exactly where Kubelik pushed Baker, a bit less hectic and the song gains from it. Baltsa is the alto for Tennstedt. Going straight from Norman to Baltsa is a shock. Her sound seems to come from the mask, forward, not much resonance a focused but acidic sound. Not much to my taste. It was recorded in 1984 and the voice is loosening by then, the glamour gone.
So, so many riches, I have not been looking for an outright winner as this masterwork yields to different approaches. I have not used all the versions I have, I would never part with the Walter. There has only been one looser, Haitink. What I now have however is a version that excites me and replicates my memories of the beauty and expressiveness of Janet Baker's singing, introduces me to an intelligent tenor I did not know and makes me think I need to listen to more live Kubelik Mahler.
Mike
Great post, Mike, thanks!
Many thanks for the information, I think I'm going to purchase at the two ends of the dichotomy that you outlined in the post. I will probably purchase the Levine and the Bernstein.
Steve, so many good choices...some I did not even mention. I would be interested in your thoughts once you get a chance to assimilate the performances.
Mike
The Klemperer, as for many, was my go-to for a long period, but eventually it grew weary.
I see Mike has mentioned the Tennstedt. After considerable search, including some relistening, Tennstedt satisfied my new "DLVDE" need. I read no reviews. I just listened.
The spacious reading (3 minutes longer than Klemperer) works beautifully. It created a darker, more interesting atmosphere. And the additional breadth, I felt, was more accommodating to song.
The LPO's superlative play must be unmatched for this work. The atmosphere is quite astonishing at times, something I cannot say for many moments of Tennstedt Mahler Symphonies. On this occasion, he and I clicked throughout.
Quote from: BorisG on May 03, 2007, 02:14:23 PM
The Klemperer, as for many, was my go-to for a long period, but eventually it grew weary.
I see Mike has mentioned the Tennstedt. After considerable search, including some relistening, Tennstedt satisfied my new "DLVDE" need. I read no reviews. I just listened.
The spacious reading (3 minutes longer than Klemperer) works beautifully. It created a darker, more interesting atmosphere. And the additional breadth, I felt, was more accommodating to song.
The LPO's superlative play must be unmatched for this work. The atmosphere is quite astonishing at times, something I cannot say for many moments of Tennstedt Mahler Symphonies. On this occasion, he and I clicked throughout.
I've just actually sampled the Tennstedt, and was rather taken with it. Much adieu, as you indicated, to the fine playing of the LSO, and the solid orchestration as usual from Davis. I purchased nearly immeditately. You mentioned Tennstedt lackluser reputation in the symphonies, which is something that I can lend cadence to, but this realy is a wonderful divergence. Just excellent all around performance. Voices of Norman and Vickers are, as you, say superlative. I'm not one, generally, for impulse buying, but this was really was a surprise. :)
Klemperer
Haitink
That's enough.
Quote from: Harry Collier on May 03, 2007, 02:56:02 PM
Klemperer
Haitink
That's enough.
Not so fast! The Tennstedt is really a beautiful performance too. I already have Klemperer, and I don't find this to be an unessecary recording. I was only eager to press the next track button upon hearing the wonderful opening. The vocals are considerably better on this disc. I never found the tenor on the Klemperer disc to be as engaging as I'd like.
Quote from: Steve on May 03, 2007, 02:53:13 PM
I've just actually sampled the Tennstedt, and was rather taken with it. Much adieu, as you indicated, to the fine playing of the LSO, and the solid orchestration as usual from Davis. I purchased nearly immeditately. You mentioned Tennstedt lackluser reputation in the symphonies, which is something that I can lend cadence to, but this realy is a wonderful divergence. Just excellent all around performance. Voices of Norman and Vickers are, as you, say superlative. I'm not one, generally, for impulse buying, but this was really was a surprise. :)
Tennstedt/LPO/Baltsa/Konig.
Make room for the DG Sinopoli Dresden at the top. It's extraordinarily beautiful and expressive.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on May 03, 2007, 05:54:46 PM
Make room for the DG Sinopoli Dresden at the top. It's extraordinarily beautiful and expressive.
Noted. :)
There have been many good ones mentioned here already, and there are probably 20 performances of this symphony that are very worthwhile. For my money, though, I don't think that you can beat Haitink/Baker/King/RCOA for a Female/Male pairing. Others have already mentioned the great singing (and IMO, there is nothing faceless about King), but I'll give a big thumbs up to Haitink's conducting and the playing of the RCOA. Haitink does much more than stay out of the way here. He chooses perfect tempos throughout. Compare the heart-pounding and gasping intensity of his middle section in "Von Der Schonheit" to Klemperer's droopy version. Haitink's funeral march in "Der Abschied" is amazingly intense (Klemperer is superb here as well). The tam-tam's are very audible and really add to the feeling. The final "ewig's" are transcendent. By the way, the sound is excellent.
For me, the live Kubelick is in the same performance class. Janet Baker might sing slightly better here, and I might even choose Kmentt (sp?) over King. However, I like the sound and the orchestra better in the Haitink version. A couple of others that I recommend without reservation are Giulini/BPO, Sanderling/Berlin SO, and Oue/Minnesota
The Bernstein/DFD/King is an easy choice in a male/male version. The VPO is not always my preferred Mahler orchestra, but Lennie really draws a great performance from them. This has to be one of the great funeral marches in Der Abschied. I also really like the Rattle/Hampson/Seiffert version. I must point out that I have a strong positive bias for Hampson, though. BTW, I like male/male versions of this symphony as much as mixed ones, there just aren't many from which to choose. Oh yeah, the Kletzki/DFD/(can't remember the tenor) is very worthwhile in this category, but the Salonen/Domingo/Skovhus is probably not.
Some words of warning on some others that have been mentioned. The Tennstedt has terribly harsh sound for the male songs. It does feature a superb Der Abschied though. The Sinopoli is fantastic throughout until you reach the final 30 or so seconds. Sinopoli inexplicably rushes through the final "ewigs", which destroys the entire transcendent feeling. Klemperer has droopy tempos in the middle songs, but everything else about it makes it a must own recording. I was glad to see someone mention the Levine. I have read complaints about its length and about Norman, but it works fine for me (even if not a first choice of mine). As for the Boulez, I have never liked it. I don't like the singing or the conducting, and the VPO sound more inspired for Lennie.
There are many others that I would recommend with generally minor reservations: Walter/Miller/Haefliger/NYPO, Bertini, Karajan & Bernstein/Sony (both with Ludwig/Kollo), Jochum, Reiner, Ormandy, and perhaps even Inbal, Bychkov, Solti/CSO and Barenboim.
I haven't updated my list in a couple of years, but I don't think I've purchased any new ones in that time so I am hopefully not missing any in my collection. This is probably the symphony for which I have the largest number of first and second tier favorite performances. And, yes I go through tours of this symphony often enough that I revisit all of these recordings on occasion.
Scott
Quote from: sperlsco on May 07, 2007, 08:40:44 AM
There have been many good ones mentioned here already, and there are probably 20 performances of this symphony that are very worthwhile. For my money, though, I don't think that you can beat Haitink/Baker/King/RCOA for a Female/Male pairing. Others have already mentioned the great singing (and IMO, there is nothing faceless about King), but I'll give a big thumbs up to Haitink's conducting and the playing of the RCOA. Haitink does much more than stay out of the way here. He chooses perfect tempos throughout. Compare the heart-pounding and gasping intensity of his middle section in "Von Der Schonheit" to Klemperer's droopy version. Haitink's funeral march in "Der Abschied" is amazingly intense (Klemperer is superb here as well). The tam-tam's are very audible and really add to the feeling. The final "ewig's" are transcendent. By the way, the sound is excellent.
For me, the live Kubelick is in the same performance class. Janet Baker might sing slightly better here, and I might even choose Kmentt (sp?) over King. However, I like the sound and the orchestra better in the Haitink version. A couple of others that I recommend without reservation are Giulini/BPO, Sanderling/Berlin SO, and Oue/Minnesota
The Bernstein/DFD/King is an easy choice in a male/male version. The VPO is not always my preferred Mahler orchestra, but Lennie really draws a great performance from them. This has to be one of the great funeral marches in Der Abschied. I also really like the Rattle/Hampson/Seiffert version. I must point out that I have a strong positive bias for Hampson, though. BTW, I like male/male versions of this symphony as much as mixed ones, there just aren't many from which to choose. Oh yeah, the Kletzki/DFD/(can't remember the tenor) is very worthwhile in this category, but the Salonen/Domingo/Skovhus is probably not.
Some words of warning on some others that have been mentioned. The Tennstedt has terribly harsh sound for the male songs. It does feature a superb Der Abschied though. The Sinopoli is fantastic throughout until you reach the final 30 or so seconds. Sinopoli inexplicable rushes through the final "ewigs", which destroys the entire transcendent feeling. Klemperer has droopy tempos in the middle songs, but everything else about it makes it a must own recording. I was glad to see someone mention the Levine. I have read complaints about its length and about Norman, but it works fine for me (even if not a first choice of mine). As for the Boulez, I have never liked it. I don't like the singing or the conducting, and the VPO sound more inspired for Lennie.
There are many others that I would recommend with generally minor reservations: Walter/Miller/Haefliger/NYPO, Bertini, Karajan & Bernstein/Sony (both with Ludwig/Kollo), Jochum, Reiner, Ormandy, and perhaps even Inbal, Bychkov, Solti/CSO and Barenboim.
I haven't updated my list in a ???couple of years, but I don't think I've purchased any new ones in that time so I am hopefully not missing any in my collection. This is probably the symphony for which I have the largest number of first and second tier favorite performances. And, yes I go through tours of this symphony often enough that I revisit all of these recordings on occasion.
Scott
Thoughful commentary,
Scott. I was quite taken with the Tennstedt. I could not detect anything 'harsh' about the voices. Perhaps I should have listened more intently? ???
A quick, heretical recommendation for the "chamber" Das Lied conducted by Herreweghe with Blochwitz and Emmert (Harmonia Mundi). Arranged, I think by Schönberg. Surprisingly effective; when you think of it, Mahler rarely revels in the full orchestra in this piece. Somehow, the chamber version is infinitely touching. Well worth hearing (alongside Klemperer et al).
Quote from: Harry Collier on May 07, 2007, 11:55:39 AM
A quick, heretical recommendation for the "chamber" Das Lied conducted by Herreweghe with Blochwitz and Emmert (Harmonia Mundi). Arranged, I think by Schönberg.
For some reason I am thinking
Webern as the arranger, instead; but I do not know for certain.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 11:58:40 AM
For some reason I am thinking Webern as the arranger, instead; but I do not know for certain.
Schoenberg was the originator of the chamber version, but he never did complete it. Reiner Riehn, whoever he might be, did complete it in 1983.
Thanks, Don!
Quote from: karlhenning on May 07, 2007, 12:32:11 PM
Thanks, Don!
No problem. All I had to do was find my copy of the Herreweghe chamber version and read the liner notes.
Webern conducted Mahler, of course; I just misconnected them in the case of this arrangement . . . .
Thanks Scott for an interesting overview. I know a number of people get a lot more out of Haitink than I do, I just find him too middle of the road generally and rarely connect with his music making.
The missing tenor with Kletzki is Murray Dickie, he was usually a reliable second stringer and he seems an odd choice for Das Lied, though he does OK, not memorable though.
Mike
the ones i enjoy -
klemperer
walter/nypo
van beinem/concertgebouw
i did not like bernstein on london
dj
Quote from: Steve on May 07, 2007, 11:21:06 AM
Thoughful commentary, Scott. I was quite taken with the Tennstedt. I could not detect anything 'harsh' about the voices. Perhaps I should have listened more intently? ???
Just to clarify, it is the recorded SOUND that is harsh, not the voice itself. IIRC, the female sessions were recorded a year or so earlier than the male sessions. The female sessions were a late analog recording, whereas the male ones were very early digital. I have the latest remastering from a few years ago (paired with a nice M5) and it did not improve upon the sound IMO.
Scott
Quote from: sperlsco on May 08, 2007, 09:05:26 AM
Just to clarify, it is the recorded SOUND that is harsh, not the voice itself. IIRC, the female sessions were recorded a year or so earlier than the male sessions. The female sessions were a late analog recording, whereas the male ones were very early digital. I have the latest remastering from a few years ago (paired with a nice M5) and it did not improve upon the sound IMO.
Scott
(http://www.syuzo.com/tennstedt/cdc7546032.jpg)
I have the 1992 CD, the first issue. Soundwise, the harshest moments for me occur in the first minute of the first movement, in the way of recorded sound and tenor strain. After that, I hear everything settling down quite nicely. I have listened to this CD through two systems loudspeakers, no headphones.
Baltsa was at the December 1982 recording session and Konig at the August 1984. Your analog and digital division is the first I have heard of this. Do you have a reference for this? Everything I have read about this recording says it is only digital.
For the EMI Forte reissue, Arkiv Music notes the M5 as analog and the DLVDE as digital. They use Carr's review from Classics Today. He heard improvement. I have not heard that reissue.
I'll go with the van Beinum already mentioned - it has the IMO unsurpassed Nan Merriman & Ernst Haefliger (I heard them live under Maazel in the Festival Hall in the early 60s) plus the Concertgebouw, but then so does the Jochum recording (DG), so far unmentioned I think, which is also in stereo. No other interpretations I know combine depth & delicacy like this. It competes with Baker/Kmentt/Kubelik for the most satisfying Lied in my experience. The orchestrally most passionate recording I've heard has to be the first (Vox) Klemperer (the surge up to & climax on " - lebenstrunkne Welt" is unbelievable) - but his alto is weird & the orchestra is miles in the background. My favourite historical recording is Schuricht's, made at a historically significant time & forever marked by a female heckler who yells "Deutschland über alles, Herr Schuricht" during the Abschied. He has the same magnificent alto in Thorborg as Walter 1938 and possible the best tenor interpreter ever, Öhmann. I love Patzak but he is a little overparted in this work - not unusually in concert, of course: I remember Jerusalem, later to sing Siegfried, being drowned out by Gielen's orchestra. Öhmann really delivers the goods.
Quote from: mjwal on June 14, 2007, 06:58:44 AM
The orchestrally most passionate recording I've heard has to be the first (Vox) Klemperer (the surge up to & climax on " - lebenstrunkne Welt" is unbelievable) - but his alto is weird & the orchestra is miles in the background.
Agreed on both counts but his tenor is simply fabulous.
QuoteI love Patzak but he is a little overparted in this work
Ha, I thought I was the only one liking Patzak (and the poor guy never even gets the billing on the CD cover)
Quote from: mjwal on June 14, 2007, 06:58:44 AM
[van beinum] competes with Baker/Kmentt/Kubelik for the most satisfying Lied in my experience.
must be a great performance then. is it on cd? i haven't heard much by him but I remember a wicked recording of Brahms' 4
Quote from: sidoze on June 14, 2007, 07:39:08 AM
must be a great performance then. is it on cd? i haven't heard much by him but I remember a wicked recording of Brahms' 4
Wicked is not a descriptor I normally associate with van Beinum. In fact, he had trouble in Amsterdam coming behind Mengelberg for his supposed coolness. Not enough Mengelbergian venom.
If it's 'wicked' you want van Beinum is most likely not your man. For considered and well-crafted van Beinum is just the ticket.
Quote from: donwyn on June 14, 2007, 08:17:35 AM
Wicked is not a descriptor I normally associate with van Beinum. In fact, he had trouble in Amsterdam coming behind Mengelberg for his supposed coolness. Not enough Mengelbergian venom.
If it's 'wicked' you want van Beinum is most likely not your man. For considered and well-crafted van Beinum is just the ticket.
I maintain that his recording of Brahms 4 (not sure if he made more than one; I think the one I had was from Amsterdam) was wicked if well-crafted -- but certainly wicked. I was going to start a thread about recordings of Brahms 4 after listening to the piece recently, but I lost interest in it again.
I can also argue that it is (or was, sort of) Steve M's (Molman) favourite recording of the work, and we all know that his taste is impeccable.
Doesn't anyone else love the Walter/Ferrier?
Quote from: sidoze on June 14, 2007, 09:44:05 AM
I maintain that his recording of Brahms 4...was wicked if well-crafted -- but certainly wicked.
Indeed, wicked and well-crafted are not mutually exclusive as I've been at pains to point out to you for eons, now. ;)
QuoteI can also argue that it is (or was, sort of) Steve M's (Molman) favourite recording of the work, and we all know that his taste is impeccable.
Yes, I know Molman very well, I've been around. Sounds like he and I have much in common if he likes well-crafted Brahms! ;D
Quote from: donwyn on June 14, 2007, 10:00:17 AM
Indeed, wicked and well-crafted are not mutually exclusive as I've been at pains to point out to you for eons, now. ;)
Pah! Nice try old boy :P But you can't get to wicked without first being well-crafted. Now if you want to talk about being orderly and well-groomed, then I'm leaving :P ;D
There is another live Janet Baker version from the Festival Hall, on BBC Legends, with Rudolf Kempe conducting. The tenor is Ludovic Spiess. I was actually at this concert; the first time I had ever heard the work. I was completely bowled over, both by the piece and by Janet Baker, and as soon as the Haitink was released, some time after this concert, I snatched it up, for the singing of Dame Janet. Has anyone heard the Kempe? I'd be interested to know if it matches my youthful experience of having been at an exceptional event.
At present I have the Baker/Mitchinson/Leppard version and the Baltsa/Koenig/Tennstedt, though, in addition to the Haitink, I used to have the Klemperer, on LP. No other tenor sings the tenor songs with such ease and beauty of tone as Wunderlich. Baker I find absolutely supreme in this music, but I'm not altogether satisfied with the Leppard, and have been wondering whether to purchase the Kubelik, Haitink or Kempe. No doubt, someone will say, get all 3, and I wouldn't be surprised if I end up doing that.
As for the Tennstedt, I listened to it again only recently, and found it orchestrally superb. I also enjoyed the solo singing. I have read elsewhere that Baltsa sounds harsh, but I don't find her so at all, and at that time in her career, she was still able to sing with great beauty, if not in the conventional sense. Admittedly she is not Baker's equal, but I still find her Abschied strangely poignant.
Quote from: sidoze on June 14, 2007, 10:40:44 AM
Now if you want to talk about being orderly and well-groomed, then I'm leaving :P ;D
;D
But we
are, m'boy!
Orderly and well-groomed is van Beinum in a nutshell, hence my appearance here.
That's his MO. If you don't believe me, grab a handful of his recordings, take 'em home, and see for yourself.
He's no fire-eater, and that's for sure!
So, three cheers...we've established that 'well-groomed' can indeed spell 'wicked'! ;D
Quote from: Haffner on June 14, 2007, 09:47:45 AM
Doesn't anyone else love the Walter/Ferrier?
Yes :)
Quote from: Steve on June 14, 2007, 11:02:02 PM
Yes :)
Laughing :D. I love the Bruno/Ferrier. It was my first version of the Lied, and it really made an outstanding impression.
Quote from: sidoze on June 14, 2007, 09:44:05 AM
I maintain that his recording of Brahms 4 (not sure if he made more than one; I think the one I had was from Amsterdam) was wicked if well-crafted -- but certainly wicked. I was going to start a thread about recordings of Brahms 4 after listening to the piece recently, but I lost interest in it again.
I can also argue that it is (or was, sort of) Steve M's (Molman) favourite recording of the work, and we all know that his taste is impeccable.
Well that proves that his taste is not impeccable but flawed because it is far and away from being the finest recording of the work.
More for pseuds, I would have thought, able to state in company: "Oh, I think I like Beinum's the most." knowing full well that nobody would have heard it.
Besides, he doesn't like Berlioz. A lapse of judgement as well as taste. Sad, really, but experience has taught me that one cannot govern, entirely, what one likes and dislikes.
Quote from: Haffner on June 14, 2007, 09:47:45 AM
Doesn't anyone else love the Walter/Ferrier?
Yes....still stands up and stands out.
Mike
What do you think about these Giulini recordings? It seems like the 1987 Salzburg disc is quite highly regarded.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4011790654225.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/dc/7e/1b0b228348a02d19b8a21110._AA240_.L.jpg)
Didn't like the Bernstein recording. Too eccentric for my taste. Besides DFD was weak in that recording compared with the Kletzki. I still find the Kletzki having the most moving Das Abshied on record.
About those Giulini CDs which one is better? DG Berlin or the 1987 Salzburg VPO? I may grab one of these.
I got the Haitink for Janet Baker, but was very impressed with Haitink's sensitivity to Mahler's sound world. I think this is the recording I'd start someone off with.
Quote from: Daverz on April 04, 2008, 02:56:30 AM
I got the Haitink for Janet Baker, but was very impressed with Haitink's sensitivity to Mahler's sound world. I think this is the recording I'd start someone off with.
I count myself fortunate indeed that my first exposure to this work was a performance at the Royal Festival Hall, with Janet Baker singing and conducted by Rudolf Kempe (this performance now mercifully preserved on CD). To me she remains unrivalled in the work, either in the various live performances availabe or in the studio version, conducted by Haitink. Baker's sincerity and identification with the music and the texts is never in doubt, and I prefer her even to a native German speaker like Ludwig, gloriously though she sings.
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/423/cd0954jw3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
A period-instrument recording of the Schoenberg/Riehn chamber version of this music.
(Not Herreweghe's - though his is HIP.)
John Elwes / Russell Braun
Smithsonian Chamber Players / Kenneth Slowik
Dorian
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2007, 07:03:01 AM
I wonder if women listeners think so, too . . . .
I have never had a preference for woman or man in DLVE, so long as the artistry is on a sufficiently high level.
This past winter I was lucky enough to hear DLVE with Thomas Quasthoff and Ben Heppner (Rattle/BP) at Carnegie Hall. The performance, and especially Quasthoff's Abschied was without doubt one of the most wonderful experiences of my life. The audience must have agreed with me because when it ended no one moved, or even breathed for the longest time.
I've just been listening to the Tennstedt again, and have to say that I don't understand its comparative neglect, compared to those of Walter, Klemperer, Haitink, Kempe and Kubelik. The orchestral playing is often quite exquisite, Tennstedt bringing out much of the chamber-like qualities of the work. The sound I found clear, without being over analytical, and the soloists are both excellent. Koenig may not sing with the youthful exuberance and tonal beauty of Wunderlich ( who does?), but he is never less than thoughtful, with a voice that is fully up to the heroic demands of the first song. Baltsa impressed me anew. Her German may not be totally idiomatic; however it is often forgotten that she was trained in Germany, spoke German fluently and spent the early part of her career in German opera houses. This is definitely not the work of a singer who has just strayed in from the world of Italian opera on a night off. She engages fully with the texts, and at that time in her career she was able to sing with a grave beauty of tone. Her performance steers a sort of midway course between Ludwig's open-hearted response and Baker's more withdrawn and introspective performance. I found it totally convincing, even if I do still slightly prefer Baker's unique insights into this music. I believe that, though recorded in 1982 and 1984, it wasn't released until 1992,as Tennstedt would not approve its release. I can't imagine why the maestro could have been dissatisfied with any aspect of the performance. He must have been imagining something totally unattainable.
Levine will be conducting Das Lied von der Erde next week here in Boston, with Anne Sofie von Otter and Johan Botha (no idea though who that is). I will probably go, if I am in town.
Just as an aside here, don't people think that the writing in many parts of this important work is congested? This shortcoming, together with the intellectualism of the Eighth symphony's construction and polyphony, was only properly resolved in the Ninth...
Sean - since the writing is in German (which you don't understand), you can not judge that.
It is well known that Mahler would frequently subject the orchestration of every new orchestral work to detailed revision over several years: though the musical material itself was hardly ever changed, the complex instrumental 'clothing' would be altered and refined in the light of experience gained in performance. In the case of Das Lied von der Erde , however, this process did not occur: the work's publication and first performance occurred posthumously. A fascinating compromise was presented in a chamber transcription for thirteen players by Arnold Schoenberg/Riehn. The great beauty and effectiveness of this transcription for a small orchestra is its ability to convey the same passions and feelings as the original orchestral score did, but in a more quiet, intense, intimate manner.
Quote from: HARPER_JT on April 07, 2008, 05:41:17 AM
A fascinating compromise was presented in a chamber transcription for thirteen players by Arnold Schoenberg/Riehn. The great beauty and effectiveness of this transcription for a small orchestra is its ability to convey the same passions and feelings as the original orchestral score did, but in a more quiet, intense, intimate manner.
I agree - I listen to the original and to the transcribed version about 50:50 of the time.
Quote from: M forever on April 07, 2008, 03:55:05 AM
Levine will be conducting Das Lied von der Erde next week here in Boston, with Anne Sofie von Otter and Johan Botha (no idea though who that is).
A very good Wagnerian tenor from South Africa. I've heard him as Lohengrin and Walther von Stolzing at the Met. I don't think you'll be disappointed.
Quote from: Sean on April 07, 2008, 04:03:09 AM
Just as an aside here, don't people think that the writing in many parts of this important work is congested?
No.
I find the orchestral writing to be (at least in all the recordings I like) of the utmost clarity.
Unfortunately I've never heard this work live. It probably ranks #1 on the list of "works to hear live at least once before I die."
Quote from: edward on April 07, 2008, 12:49:55 PM
I find the orchestral writing to be (at least in all the recordings I like) of the utmost clarity.
Me too. Few people had the gift to write clearly for large forces like Mahler (broad generalization I know).
Hi John, how's it going? I'm out of England at present.
Folks, take the very opening of this work- it's like Mahler's already half way through a particularly tangled and unhappy musical argument- what a noisy start; by the time of the more serene Abscheid (or whatever the last movement's called) we need a break anyway- there's tension in this work of the wrong kind...
Quote from: Sean on April 07, 2008, 03:05:49 PM
Hi John, how's it going? I'm out of England at present.
Folks, take the very opening of this work- it's like Mahler's already half way through a particularly tangled and unhappy musical argument- what a noisy start; by the time of the more serene Abscheid (or whatever the last movement's called) we need a break anyway- there's tension in this work of the wrong kind...
Think Chinese, then it will make sense. ::)
Quote from: edward on April 07, 2008, 12:49:55 PM
No.
I find the orchestral writing to be (at least in all the recordings I like) of the utmost clarity.
Unfortunately I've never heard this work live. It probably ranks #1 on the list of "works to hear live at least once before I die."
In a couple of performances I've heard, the tenor was overpowered particularly in the opening song. I can't remember where I read this, but I recall one writer giving his opinion that Mahler might have thinned out the orchestration for this section had he lived to hear the work.
Botha is a favourite of some of today's most important operatic productions. I can't say I'm that impressed. But singing part-time in a one hour-long work is distinctly less challenging than featuring as a leading verdian, wagnerian or straussian tenor. I hope he manages to stay vocally healthy. I don't think he should venture past that kind of vocal range and tessitura, though. But since he thought he could make it as Otello at the Met, it does not bode well for the future....
Quote from: Sforzando on April 07, 2008, 05:44:26 PM
In a couple of performances I've heard, the tenor was overpowered particularly in the opening song. I can't remember where I read this, but I recall one writer giving his opinion that Mahler might have thinned out the orchestration for this section had he lived to hear the work.
Well - that is one of relatively few parts of Mahler where I think you may be right. But OTOH the impression of strain this gives to the tenor may be intended and makes for a very powerful impression. Without the sense of the tenor fighting desperately to match the orchestra the Drinking song would make quite another impression, so it might be intended.
I currently have just one version, Karajan/BP with Ludwig/Kollo as soloists. I love this recording to death, but I feel I need one or two more recordings of this wonderful work.
Any recomandations?
For me, there's one Das Lied that stands out from all the others...the live SOBR/Kubelik on Audite with Waldemar Kmentt and Janet Baker. I find that Kubelik's direction is constantly attentive to both the details and the larger structure of the work, Kmentt gets as much as I've heard from the tenor songs, and Baker's simply incomparable. (I think Baker's studio recording with Haitink is also very fine, but I prefer Kubelik's interpretation and choice of tenor.)
I've always loved the Haitink/Baker/King/Conc'bouw recording on Philips, above all for Janet Baker's hypnotic singing in Der Abschied.
And Bruno Walter's last recording with the NYPO, which I much prefer to his "classic" version with Ferrier.
Also, consider an all-male version, it makes an interesting contrast. I like the Kletzki with Fischer-Dieskau, but there are others.
For me the great version of that work, is this one. I like to say that this recording is one of best disc of the history of recorded music.
That's the only one I have on CD (DG Galleria 419 058-2) and I quite enjoy it. Christa Ludwig is superb, of course, and Rene Kollo did a fine, dramatic performance.
I have a couple of good ones on LP. First is Bruno Walter, NYPO, with Mildred Miller and Ernst Haefliger. Mildred Miller was a fine artist. Haefliger is very good, too, but I think the part is a bit too heavy for his lyric voice.
The other is Eugen Jochum, Amsterdam Concertgebouw, with Nan Merriman, another excellent and reliable soprano, and Haefliger, again.
I can recommend all of these, but the one I really listen to is Karajan, BPO, with Ludwig and Kollo.
Now, if I only understood what the text is really about . . .
I have the Walter / Miller / Haefliger as well and like it a great deal.
Can anyone recommend a good chamber version of this work? I've never heard any chamber version, but I am intrigued.
My favorite version: Klemperer with Ludwig and Wunderlich. The sense of eternity, the deep sadness of Ludwig, the explosive Wunderlich in the first Lied are unforgettable.
In second place the more dramatic version of Walter with Ferrier and Patzak.
In third place, Reiner, because of the sublime Forrester. The tenor has not the same presence.
Quote from: edward on October 24, 2008, 04:32:39 AM
For me, there's one Das Lied that stands out from all the others...the live SOBR/Kubelik on Audite with Waldemar Kmentt and Janet Baker. I find that Kubelik's direction is constantly attentive to both the details and the larger structure of the work, Kmentt gets as much as I've heard from the tenor songs, and Baker's simply incomparable. (I think Baker's studio recording with Haitink is also very fine, but I prefer Kubelik's interpretation and choice of tenor.)
same here Edward, great performance and the recording sounds very good too.
Bruno Walter chose Maureen Forrester to sing his last public DLVDE (in New York). The Abschied survives on a recently issued Gala disc. This has been praised to the rafters by the American Record Guide reviewer. I'll try to lay my hands on it (coupled with Schumann lieder cycles). I have two complete DLVDE with Forrester (Reiner and Szell) and she sings it with boiling point emotional temperature. VERY different from the poised, elegiac and poetic Baker.
Of the two complete performances, which one would you recommend above the other?
Mike
Both have the same tenor (Richard Lewis). I prefer the Szell, which is a 1967 live recording with the Cleveland Orchestra on tour in Berlin. It is that bit more intense and at the same time more spontaneous than the RCA disc under Reiner. I also prefer their playing. The sound leaves much to be desired compared to the Hifi RCA.
Andre, Thanks, I have ordered it. I would be interested in an approach to contrast with Baker.
Mike
No one seems to have mentioned Oue's recording with the Minnesota O, Michelle de Young and Jon Villars. It's up there with my favorites as well. Also, Bertini's DLVE is excellent -- a great bonus in the box set of his Mahler cycle. I think it's also available in SACD from Japanese websites.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4132MTKMA7L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on November 01, 2008, 06:18:47 AM
No one seems to have mentioned Oue's recording with the Minnesota O, Michelle de Young and Jon Villars. It's up there with my favorites as well. Also, Bertini's DLVE is excellent -- a great bonus in the box set of his Mahler cycle. I think it's also available in SACD from Japanese websites.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4132MTKMA7L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
A gorgeous cover, too.
(http://stores.homestead.com/MotorCityNorthRecords1/catalog/11521.JPG)
Am considering this - Mahler "Das Lied von der Erde" with Maazel live 1960 at La Fenice.
I often find Italian orchestras disappointing, but there are exceptions - and early Maazel can be good at times.
Does anyone know it ?
I have just ordered the recently surfaced line Krips version of DLVDE with Wunderlich and Fischer Dieskau. Should be a fitting tribute to the latter. I have not read any reviews of the performance, but I suspect it ought to be top notch.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on May 19, 2012, 09:52:24 AM
I have just ordered the recently surfaced line Krips version of DLVDE with Wunderlich and Fischer Dieskau. Should be a fitting tribute to the latter. I have not read any reviews of the performance, but I suspect it ought to be top notch.
Mike
Sounds very interesting ! Tell about it, when it arrives !
Sure will. I do have the Bernstein/Fischer Dieskau version. But the tenor there is good, not great.
Mike
Boulez/WP, Kubelik/BRSO (Audite), MTT/SFS, Klemperer/Philharmonia, Haitink/RCO (hard to beat Baker!)
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on October 24, 2008, 09:47:37 PM
Can anyone recommend a good chamber version of this work? I've never heard any chamber version, but I am intrigued.
The only one I have is Herreweghe. I like it, but the full orchestral work is chamber-like enough plus boasts sumptuousness. And neither soloist is up to the standards of those in the recordings I posted above.
I think I am up around 16 versions and I agree re Baker, esp with Kubelik. I second Klemperer and recommend Levine, Giulini, Walter and Szell. Each for different reasons, not all entirely legitimate. I seem to be allergic to MTT, in anything.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on May 19, 2012, 09:52:24 AM
I have just ordered the recently surfaced line Krips version of DLVDE with Wunderlich and Fischer Dieskau. Should be a fitting tribute to the latter. I have not read any reviews of the performance, but I suspect it ought to be top notch.
Mike
I got it when it first came out, and I'll repeat what I've said before (probably on the Mahler Mania thread)--the audio is not that great but generally acceptable; the same applies to the orchestral playing. But it's an absolute must to have because both singers surpass their performances on their more famous recordings (D F-D with Bernstein, Wunderlich with Klemperer).
Klemperer is the only performance I remember of Das Lied von der Erde, but I'm anxious to hear MTT's and Boulez's. My Dad owns all the Mahler. I'm pretty sure he has about 6 or 7 recordings of this work and quite possibly more.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 19, 2012, 05:28:09 PM
I got it when it first came out, and I'll repeat what I've said before (probably on the Mahler Mania thread)--the audio is not that great but generally acceptable; the same applies to the orchestral playing. But it's an absolute must to have because both singers surpass their performances on their more famous recordings (D F-D with Bernstein, Wunderlich with Klemperer).
Thanks. That manages well my expectations re the sound. I have DFD in the Bernstein performance and think he comes under stree in the final song's upper reaches due to the slow pace of some sections. DFD is also by then striking some words hard and tooth pasting the sound. I also have him about seven years earlier in the Kletzki version, which I think is under rated. DFD was in fresher voice and integrates the lines and phrasing without the later bumps. Murray Dickie is the tenor, usually singing light roles, he manages quite well here and really does use the words. It is a version that is worth looking out for.
Mike
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2012, 07:06:13 PM
Klemperer is the only performance I remember of Das Lied von der Erde, but I'm anxious to hear MTT's and Boulez's. My Dad owns all the Mahler. I'm pretty sure he has about 6 or 7 recordings of this work and quite possibly more.
MTT's
Das Lied is amazing to my ears, easily my top version, and I've heard quite a bit. Let us know what you think when you hear it!
Quote from: knight66 on May 20, 2012, 12:48:14 AMthe Kletzki version, which I think is under rated. DFD was in fresher voice and integrates the lines and phrasing without the later bumps. Murray Dickie is the tenor, usually singing light roles, he manages quite well here and really does use the words. It is a version that is worth looking out for.
Indeed. Sadly out of print at the moment. :'(
Quote from: eyeresist on May 20, 2012, 06:30:37 PM
Indeed. Sadly out of print at the moment. :'(
But at the moment still available on Amazon MP for 9.99 USD and up, and coupled with the Fourth Symphony, no less.
[asin]B000B668U4[/asin]
Good lord! What do we have to do to get this released on CD?
http://www.youtube.com/v/YfiA6wUHOI4
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 05, 2012, 07:09:34 AM
Good loard! What do we have to do to get this released on CD?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfiA6wUHOI4&feature=related
Thanks for the link, I haven't listened to it yet, but Abbado + Kaufmann + Otter must be awesome :o
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 05, 2012, 07:09:34 AM
Good loard! What do we have to do to get this released on CD?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfiA6wUHOI4&feature=related
That's pretty great! Thanks! (currently my favorite is with Bertini - has Heppner who is outstanding).
I listened to this live Abbado yesterday and must say I was disappointed with the singing: Kaufmann has a remarkable voice, but he affects a hoarse baritonal timbre at times that did nothing at all for me and several times uses an unsupported thin scratchy head voice when singing piano in the higher register, whether for effect or willy nilly I do not know. Otherwise he sings rather too loud and with little dynamic grading most of the time, suggesting nothing of the objective irony that other singers like Patzak, Haefliger or Melchert discover in their less overtly expressive renderings: it's all emotional outburst. As to von Otter - her voice is now almost threadbare and I found it embarrassing to listen to, her preferred means of expression being a sort of generalised "It's agony, Ivy" style of delivery. The alto Grace Hoffmann in the Rosbaud recording generally preferred by me is no great shakes (as many have pointed out) compared to the likes of Maureen Forrester, Nan Merriman or Janet Baker, but her singing in Der Einsame im Herbst is far less laboured than von Otter here, providing a firm vocal representation of the words to counterpart the layered tapestry Rosbaud conjures from the orchestra (if you want more feeling, then Nan Merriman supplies it in spades with most delicate singing without squeezing or pressing the tone). I cannot fault the orchestral performance, but as so often find the interpretative style of Abbado somewhat faceless: it was all curiously unmoving orchestrally, compared with the Rosbaud and the live Giulini, both of which gripped me far more, though Fassbaender was singing with an over-heavy vibrato by 1984 and the final "ewig"s have no magic in her rendition, despite Giulini's very tasteful conducting . I admit that most of my recorded LvdEs are of older provenance and can say nothing of more recent recordings; the technical realisation of Rosbaud's performance (1960) seems to me to uncover more of the complex interweave of instrumental strands than any of the more recent recordings I have heard, like Klemperer, Kubelik, Leppard, Giulini, Sanderling, Davis* or a live de Waart (1999).
*Jon Vickers - oh no!
I agree about Otter. Her singing sunk this performance for me.
Mjwal did you hear Jon Vickers in earlier times in Das Lied? There's a live Boston Symphony recording from 1971 under Steinberg with Maureen Forrester, in very good broadcast sound. I'd say this represents Vickers' heroic voice and artistry better than that later Davis recording - or the 1982 live under Boulez, where he struggles somewhat. It just so happens that this is IMO among Forrester's most touching renditions of her part - better than the Reiner recording, even slightly above the Szell.
No, André, unfortunately not, and I'll look for it, especially because of Forrester - Steinberg is an underrated conductor and that's another reason, apart from hearing Vickers in good form (he was exciting in Leinsdorf's Walküre and the Beecham Messiah!). P.S. I saw him as Parsifal at Covent Garden in the early 70s and he impressed me a lot, though I was at that time unacquainted with most of the music.
As far as the EMI Klemperer is concerned I would like to know whether the most recent remastering is better that the first CD mastering, one of my very first CDs in around 1984. I find it sounds rather logy and suspect that may be partly due to the early digitalisation, though nothing could save "Von der Schönheit" from dragging insufferably. I know I shall never regain my first enthusiasm for that recording: unfortunately I am deaf to the charms of Christa Ludwig, who is of course a very estimable singer and does sound very good on that early recording of the Elektra recognition scene. Icannot understand why Maureen Forrester has not been given her due; she is for me the most necessary low-voice woman singer of the post-war period together with Janet Baker - I love to hear them both in Bach, Handel and Mahler.
Quote from: North Star on July 05, 2012, 07:13:25 AM
Thanks for the link, I haven't listened to it yet, but Abbado + Kaufmann + Otter must be awesome :o
I thought so, too, based on my sampling of it before posting. I look forward to listening to the entire performance -- maybe I'll make time later today!
Quote from: André on July 06, 2012, 06:09:48 PM
Mjwal did you hear Jon Vickers in earlier times in Das Lied? There's a live Boston Symphony recording from 1971 under Steinberg with Maureen Forrester, in very good broadcast sound. I'd say this represents Vickers' heroic voice and artistry better than that later Davis recording - or the 1982 live under Boulez, where he struggles somewhat. It just so happens that this is IMO among Forrester's most touching renditions of her part - better than the Reiner recording, even slightly above the Szell.
Can you upload it, or provide a link to where I can find it?
Quote from: mjwal on July 06, 2012, 04:52:13 AM
I listened to this live Abbado yesterday and must say I was disappointed with the singing: Kaufmann has a remarkable voice, but he affects a hoarse baritonal timbre at times that did nothing at all for me and several times uses an unsupported thin scratchy head voice when singing piano in the higher register, whether for effect or willy nilly I do not know. Otherwise he sings rather too loud and with little dynamic grading most of the time, suggesting nothing of the objective irony that other singers like Patzak, Haefliger or Melchert discover in their less overtly expressive renderings: it's all emotional outburst. As to von Otter - her voice is now almost threadbare and I found it embarrassing to listen to, her preferred means of expression being a sort of generalised "It's agony, Ivy" style of delivery. The alto Grace Hoffmann in the Rosbaud recording generally preferred by me is no great shakes (as many have pointed out) compared to the likes of Maureen Forrester, Nan Merriman or Janet Baker, but her singing in Der Einsame im Herbst is far less laboured than von Otter here, providing a firm vocal representation of the words to counterpart the layered tapestry Rosbaud conjures from the orchestra (if you want more feeling, then Nan Merriman supplies it in spades with most delicate singing without squeezing or pressing the tone). I cannot fault the orchestral performance, but as so often find the interpretative style of Abbado somewhat faceless: it was all curiously unmoving orchestrally, compared with the Rosbaud and the live Giulini,
We must live in alternate universes.
This is an extraordinarily fine performance in every respect, the singers are superb, and Abbado and the orchestra deliver an impeccably committed and emotionally engaging performance. I will buy it when issued as an audio recording. If issued only as a DVD, I just might have to buy that!
The link for the Steinberg broadcast is still active in The Gnome blogspot. Otherwise it's just impossible to find AFAIK. But it's there close to your fingertips ;). Steinberg's conducting is rather special too. Rather fast by the clockwatch, it's alive to every mood of the work. I was really impressed. Seek the gnome...
Forrester is easily one of the most underrated singers of the last half of the 20th century. Such a voice simply cannot be forgotten once heard. A dignified and touching contralto in Bach and Handel sacred works, she became alive to secular works' human emotions (such as Handel operas) and became positively harrowing and unforgettable in emotional character parts such as Klytemnestra, the Pique Dame Countess or the Witch in Hansel und Gretel. Her last concert appearance was in Mahler's Resurrection sometime in the 80s. I heard it live from Toronto. It was memorable for its intensity, but she did the right thing by leaving the concert stage at the right time.
Unfortunately she was not recorded extensively (lack of interest or lack of contacts?). What remains is absolutely magical. Unparalleled IMO are her Mahler Wayfarer lieder and especially the Rückert lieder, as well as her Brahms Alto Rhapsody, under Fricsay (all on DGG).
Quote from: André on July 07, 2012, 01:53:44 PM
The link for the Steinberg broadcast is still active in The Gnome blogspot. Otherwise it's just impossible to find AFAIK. But it's there close to your fingertips ;). Steinberg's conducting is rather special too. Rather fast by the clockwatch, it's alive to every mood of the work. I was really impressed. Seek the gnome...
Forrester is easily one of the most underrated singers of the last half of the 20th century. Such a voice simply cannot be forgotten once heard. A dignified and touching contralto in Bach and Handel sacred works, she became alive to secular works' human emotions (such as Handel operas) and became positively harrowing and unforgettable in emotional character parts such as Klytemnestra, the Pique Dame Countess or the Witch in Hansel und Gretel. Her last concert appearance was in Mahler's Resurrection sometime in the 80s. I heard it live from Toronto. It was memorable for its intensity, but she did the right thing by leaving the concert stage at the right time.
Unfortunately she was not recorded extensively (lack of interest or lack of contacts?). What remains is absolutely magical. Unparalleled IMO are her Mahler Wayfarer lieder and especially the Rückert lieder, as well as her Brahms Alto Rhapsody, under Fricsay (all on DGG).
Can you post a link to the Gnome blogspot, or just repost the link to the record here? i can't find it.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 07, 2012, 10:00:59 PM
Can you post a link to the Gnome blogspot, or just repost the link to the record here? i can't find it.
It's called Metrognome Music, Mandryka - I've downloaded some interesting stuff from there but inexplicably overlooked the LvdE - many thanks,
André. I shall report back on this.
Here is the link to the page that hosts the music file. Fine broadcast sound.
http://metrognomemusic.blogspot.ca/2012/03/speaking-of-jon-vickers.html
Steinberg's tempi are volatile but seem inevitable, just right for the music. No agonizing portentousness in the Abschied here, the emotion is always à fleur de peau.
Steinberg is credited with a fantastic 7th played on tour by the BSO in Vienna. I haven't heard that one. Not to be missed are the Goldschmidt 3rd and 10th.The 3rd is quite controversial IMO, and in rather execrable sound but once you've heard it it makes many, many others sound like elevator music by comparison. The 10th is an unqualified success in reasonably good sound. Goldschmidt was a fine composer himself and learned his Mahler in Weimar Republic times. Egon Wellesz and Horenstein were very impressed with his conducting of the 3rd.
Quote from: André on July 08, 2012, 08:24:22 AM
Here is the link to the page that hosts the music file. Fine broadcast sound.
http://metrognomemusic.blogspot.ca/2012/03/speaking-of-jon-vickers.html
Steinberg's tempi are volatile but seem inevitable, just right for the music. No agonizing portentousness in the Abschied here, the emotion is always à fleur de peau.
Steinberg is credited with a fantastic 7th played on tour by the BSO in Vienna. I haven't heard that one. Not to be missed are the Goldschmidt 3rd and 10th.The 3rd is quite controversial IMO, and in rather execrable sound but once you've heard it it makes many, many others sound like elevator music by comparison. The 10th is an unqualified success in reasonably good sound. Goldschmidt was a fine composer himself and learned his Mahler in Weimar Republic times. Egon Wellesz and Horenstein were very impressed with his conducting of the 3rd.
Wow~thanks for this!
8)
Quote from: mjwal on July 06, 2012, 04:52:13 AM"It's agony, Ivy"
Had to google this :D
Plus once again I recommend people hear the Tennstedt recording, if only so I can hear some opinions beside my own.
Quote from: North Star on July 05, 2012, 07:13:25 AM
Thanks for the link, I haven't listened to it yet, but Abbado + Kaufmann + Otter must be awesome :o
Not really! I watched it on Berlin's Digital Concerthall. Kaufmann seems to be the bystander, Von Otter takes over.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 08, 2012, 05:57:15 PM
Had to google this :D
You can tell how old I am, nicht wahr? A misspent youth listening to BBC radio ;)
Plus once again I recommend people hear the Tennstedt recording, if only so I can hear some opinions beside my own.
OFF TOPIC:
Quote from: mjwal on July 09, 2012, 04:02:12 AM
You can tell how old I am, nicht wahr? A misspent youth listening to BBC radio
Amazingly, BBC radio seems to still be fairly vital (though I'm not a listener - maybe I would be if I lived in the UK). Comedy groups the League of Gentlemen and the Mighty Boosh did radio shows before TV, and the ubiquitous Stephen Fry still pops up from time to time. I've noticed a most amusing chap called David Mitchell regularly appearing on QI - apparently he is on the radio too.
Quote from: mjwal on July 09, 2012, 04:02:12 AM
Have you got into French Radio comedy? There's something I listen to sometimes which reminds me of the Goon Show, called Le Duo des non, on Sud Radio. And there's an "I'm sorry I haven't a Clue" type thing on Sunday afternoons on France Culture.
http://www.duodesnon.com/
Also a thing I used t enjoy called Les chevaliers du fiel.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2012, 09:28:09 PM
Have you got into French Radio comedy? There's something I listen to sometimes which reminds me of the Goon Show, called Le Duo des non, on Sud Radio. And there's an "I'm sorry I haven't a Clue" type thing on Sunday afternoons on France Culture.
http://www.duodesnon.com/
Also a thing I used to enjoy called Les chevaliers du fiel.
I hardly listen to radio nowadays* - that was all in my misspent youth - apart from which I think my auricular French is probably not good enough to get the humour; I have to read the language to appreciate subtleties. Thus I really need DVDs of French movies with French subtitles to get everything. *I make an exception for
Private Passions - the last emission was particularly good, the aged daughter of Alfred Kerr (a rather more intellectual German equivalent of James Agate) reminiscing and presenting a recording of an excerpt from an opera by her mother with libretto by Kerr himself - ah, the nostalgia...
To return to DLvdE - I have now listened to the Steinberg recording. Jon Vickers is really excellent in this, even if he rushes the beat once in "Das Trinklied vom Jammer der Erde", which might be Steinberg's fault. I am, however, beginning to have trouble really engaging with orchestral renditions that are so sonically compromised that they remind us more of those badly recorded piano accompaniments of Lieder from, say, the Raucheisen edition, than really the the main thing. It's just me, I know - my attention lapses to the extent that I find - as I did here in places - the consistency of the orchestral fabric compromised. I also found Maureen Forrester a slight disappointment in this: her voice is too unremittingly rich (sounding like a tenor at times), though her final "ewig"s are wonderful. In the Reiner recording she has learned to refine her technique and represents the best of all possible worlds in this part, though I prefer both Rosbaud and Jochum as interpreters of the work as a whole.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/23/d44680f7efb41e1678d5e9c0daa9017c.jpg)
I'm revisiting the Solti/CSO Das Lied, a recording I didn't like initially - it was my first listen to this work in 1993 - but now I absolutely love. In particular, Yvonne Minton's Der Abshied is probably the most moving I've heard in this work in over twenty versions or so.
Copied across from 'Mahler Rebooted', my review of the following..
Mahler: Das Lied von Der Erde Nezet-Seguin, LPO, Sarah Connolly, Toby Spence
Each time I review another Das Lied, I suggest that I have enough performances, yet, my decision is easily undermined. Somehow, I felt this would be special and it is. This is a live performance from Feb 2011. That is important to what you hear in a couple of ways. It was recorded before Toby Spence became ill. He is back to performing again, but I don't know whether he sounds as overwhelmingly healthy as here....I do hope so. The other significance is that being live and in very close up sound, the singers provide for the audience and the placing robs the dynamics of some of the marked ppp, or pp markings. But the performers are nevertheless obviously sensitive to the dynamics, though deliberately depart from them several times and as is obvious, this is a performance choice and perhaps some decisions are taken to 'make sure', not a slur, but sheer professionalism.
So, where is this performance on that continuum from the stoic approach of Klemperer to the heady opulence of Levine? It is more towards the latter, but less voluptuous. The orchestra playing is also very upfront and the soloists forward. I like this ventilated sound, the soloists from the orchestra, especially the woodwind sound as lovely as I have ever heard. The conductor is sane and accommodates the singers without indulging them. He is especially impressive during that compressed symphony in the final song, the funeral march clear, but the arc of the piece doing its work and taking us into the mists across that bridge. That hectic passage where the young men ride through the water is kept in superb control, so the singer and orchestra stay in harness, but it is not at all cautious.
Spence is plain out terrific, the voice is forward, open, ringing. I don't know just how big the voice is, but on the recording it is heroic and he pits himself against the wall of sound in the first movement. He does as well as just about anyone. There are brief moments of strain, but less so than with most who have recorded this work. I won't mention the usual comparators, it stands on its own as a satisfying performance. He has the verbal acuity of the other songs under his belt, though does not shade the tone colour much.
Connelly: What a completely beautiful sound, I have never heard her sound more lovely. It is rich, grave and even through the range. This is a highly detailed reading with nothing bland. I did notice that often at the end of phrases crotchets become minims, but this is live and the moments are taken and I see that as expression within the bounds of the art of performance. It is never done in such a way as to slow the music down at all.
That final song, the core of the work is half an hour of terrific concentration with considerable flexibility and is very moving. At many points I felt gooseflesh as the words were made to tell. This is a living, organic performance, not a cold distant delivery of the notes.
The close sound does not quite allow the final dissolve into nothingness, but this is one of the very best performances I have heard and I will be keeping it by me to mine it time and again.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 24, 2015, 06:16:43 AM
Copied across from 'Mahler Rebooted', my review of the following..
Mahler: Das Lied von Der Erde Nezet-Seguin, LPO, Sarah Connolly, Toby Spence
Each time I review another Das Lied, I suggest that I have enough performances, yet, my decision is easily undermined. Somehow, I felt this would be special and it is. This is a live performance from Feb 2011. That is important to what you hear in a couple of ways. It was recorded before Toby Spence became ill. He is back to performing again, but I don't know whether he sounds as overwhelmingly healthy as here....I do hope so. The other significance is that being live and in very close up sound, the singers provide for the audience and the placing robs the dynamics of some of the marked ppp, or pp markings. But the performers are nevertheless obviously sensitive to the dynamics, though deliberately depart from them several times and as is obvious, this is a performance choice and perhaps some decisions are taken to 'make sure', not a slur, but sheer professionalism.
So, where is this performance on that continuum from the stoic approach of Klemperer to the heady opulence of Levine? It is more towards the latter, but less voluptuous. The orchestra playing is also very upfront and the soloists forward. I like this ventilated sound, the soloists from the orchestra, especially the woodwind sound as lovely as I have ever heard. The conductor is sane and accommodates the singers without indulging them. He is especially impressive during that compressed symphony in the final song, the funeral march clear, but the arc of the piece doing its work and taking us into the mists across that bridge. That hectic passage where the young men ride through the water is kept in superb control, so the singer and orchestra stay in harness, but it is not at all cautious.
Spence is plain out terrific, the voice is forward, open, ringing. I don't know just how big the voice is, but on the recording it is heroic and he pits himself against the wall of sound in the first movement. He does as well as just about anyone. There are brief moments of strain, but less so than with most who have recorded this work. I won't mention the usual comparators, it stands on its own as a satisfying performance. He has the verbal acuity of the other songs under his belt, though does not shade the tone colour much.
Connelly: What a completely beautiful sound, I have never heard her sound more lovely. It is rich, grave and even through the range. This is a highly detailed reading with nothing bland. I did notice that often at the end of phrases crotchets become minims, but this is live and the moments are taken and I see that as expression within the bounds of the art of performance. It is never done in such a way as to slow the music down at all.
That final song, the core of the work is half an hour of terrific concentration with considerable flexibility and is very moving. At many points I felt gooseflesh as the words were made to tell. This is a living, organic performance, not a cold distant delivery of the notes.
The close sound does not quite allow the final dissolve into nothingness, but this is one of the very best performances I have heard and I will be keeping it by me to mine it time and again.
Mike
Thanks for the review, I agree, this recording is definitely a keeper!!
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/27/dd772cd61b1f5b43ccfddfd483ed12c8.jpg)
When I have to hear a recording 2 times in a row I know there is a special quality about it - more thoughts later! (Not that anyone cares obviously)
Any thoughts on the Colin Davis recording with Vickers and Norman? I've heard it be called 'the worst recording ever' of the piece, and also 'surprisingly good'. I came across it used recently and didn't buy it, but am starting to regret it now. Is it worth going back for?
Quote from: Leo K. on January 27, 2015, 10:03:16 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/27/dd772cd61b1f5b43ccfddfd483ed12c8.jpg)
When I have to hear a recording 2 times in a row I know there is a special quality about it - more thoughts later! (Not that anyone cares obviously)
I care Leo!
Make it sooner rather than later please :)
Quote from: brunumb on January 29, 2015, 02:11:46 PM
I care Leo!
Make it sooner rather than later please :)
Thank you sir! One more listen and I should be ready :)
Quote from: betterthanfine on January 29, 2015, 02:26:58 AM
Any thoughts on the Colin Davis recording with Vickers and Norman? I've heard it be called 'the worst recording ever' of the piece, and also 'surprisingly good'. I came across it used recently and didn't buy it, but am starting to regret it now. Is it worth going back for?
I've always liked this recording because I love Norman's way with Mahler. I wouldn't say it's essential though.
Quote from: Leo K. on January 29, 2015, 02:35:17 PM
I've always liked this recording because I love Norman's way with Mahler. I wouldn't say it's essential though.
I have Klemperer, Giulini, and Nezet-Seguin. I think I'll get the Davis for good old Jessye then, I love that glorious voice of hers. Thanks, Leo. :)
Goosebumps with Van Beinum, Haefliger, Merriman and the Concertgebouw Orkest.
I listen to the cd and smell the vinyl.
(http://110.imagebam.com/download/QLqNi1BLHXgcNJ1n2B4Ixg/38598/385978467/gefsagfasd2.jpg)
Quote from: betterthanfine on January 29, 2015, 02:26:58 AM
Any thoughts on the Colin Davis recording with Vickers and Norman? I've heard it be called 'the worst recording ever' of the piece, and also 'surprisingly good'. I came across it used recently and didn't buy it, but am starting to regret it now. Is it worth going back for?
Ten years earlier and Vickers would have been ideal; but here it is too late for him and he is strained and parched. Norman does sound terrific. Davis provides a lot of detail from the players and the pacing is sensible. I Had this on LP and it disappointed me. But a couple of years ago I got it on CD and was pleasantly surprised. Not a top recommendation, but worth getting. I do prefer the Norman version conducted by Levine. One of the very few recordings of his that I rate highly.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 30, 2015, 09:20:17 PM
Ten years earlier and Vickers would have been ideal; but here it is too late for him and he is strained and parched. Norman does sound terrific. Davis provides a lot of detail from the players and the pacing is sensible. I Had this on LP and it disappointed me. But a couple of years ago I got it on CD and was pleasantly surprised. Not a top recommendation, but worth getting. I do prefer the Norman version conducted by Levine. One of the very few recordings of his that I rate highly.
Mike
Thank you for weighing in, Mike. I'd heard about Vickers being well past his prime in this recording. I'd be interested to hear Davis in Mahler though. I'll keep an eye out for the Levine as well, I was wondering how it would compare to the Davis recording re: Norman.
Quote from: Leo K. on January 29, 2015, 02:26:28 PM
Thank you sir! One more listen and I should be ready :)
Are you ready yet Leo? :D
Quote from: knight66 on January 30, 2015, 09:20:17 PM
Ten years earlier and Vickers would have been ideal; but here it is too late for him and he is strained and parched.
There was almost a Vickers/Baker/Szell/Cleveland recording in 1970 but a ridiculous union rule wouldn't allow the orchestra to rehearse with Vickers before the recording, and Szell refused to record without a rehearsal. The concert before the proposed recording featured Richard Lewis (who couldn't do the recording either because he'd just done it with Ormandy). So, no Szell
Das Lied...at least no studio version.
Sarge
Quote from: brunumb on February 10, 2015, 02:34:11 PM
Are you ready yet Leo? :D
Ooooops, sorry! I'll see what I can do :) And thanks for asking :)
Quote from: Leo K. on January 27, 2015, 10:03:16 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/27/dd772cd61b1f5b43ccfddfd483ed12c8.jpg)
When I have to hear a recording 2 times in a row I know there is a special quality about it - more thoughts later! (Not that anyone cares obviously)
This recording is a gentle Das Lied. The singers don't over-power you, and Fischer-Dieskau conducts with natural sounding twists and turns in the phrasing, a nice change of pace. I agree with Ralph Moore (Amazon review) that "this is one of the most peaceful, pastoral accounts I have heard but the 'Abschied,' while not as monumental or indeed relentlessly funereal as some, still carries dignified weight." He also says (and I wholeheartedly agree) "No big, bawling, over-stretched tenors but a lighter-voiced singer with impeccable intonation, crystalline diction and an attractive, if slightly "white", tone; Elsner is occasionally too inclined to take refuge in his sweet falsetto to dodge some of the more challenging moments. No fruity, swooping gestures from our contralto, but a very tight, well-schooled voice with depth but the ability to float and lighten her sound, equally good diction and a complete absence of the dreaded wobble. The singers' restraint matches that of D-F-D's conducting and the orchestral playing: there is much fine shading, judiciously applied rubato, some ravishing, resinous woodwind playing and lovely flutes. Tempi are conventional but there is a poise and delicacy about this reading which is sincere and moving - no grandstanding or cheap effects."
Quote from: Leo K. on February 11, 2015, 09:23:33 AM
This recording is a gentle Das Lied. The singers don't over-power you, and Fischer-Dieskau conducts with natural sounding twists and turns in the phrasing, a nice change of pace.
Thanks Leo.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 10, 2015, 02:57:06 PM
There was almost a Vickers/Baker/Szell/Cleveland recording in 1970 but a ridiculous union rule wouldn't allow the orchestra to rehearse with Vickers before the recording, and Szell refused to record without a rehearsal. The concert before the proposed recording featured Richard Lewis (who couldn't do the recording either because he'd just done it with Ormandy). So, no Szell Das Lied...at least no studio version.
Sarge
One of the most tantalising might have beens. When I was involved in choral concerts, we hada number of near misses including Bernstein, Kubelik and Goodall amongst others, all replaced relatively late on due to health issues. Of course, they possibly would not have been recorded, but still......
Mike
Quote from: Ric on October 24, 2008, 04:52:16 AM
For me the great version of that work, is this one. I like to say that this recording is one of best disc of the history of recorded music.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/15/bae8581946dbac3ddc3fd33ebf671637.jpg)
I'm just beginning to appreciate the Klemperer Das Lied, it truly is symphonic and magnificent in every way.
Quote from: brunumb on February 11, 2015, 06:29:55 PM
Thanks Leo.
Cool, I want to write more, hopefully the words will, it takes many listens sometimes. The guy on Amazon takes the words out of my hand!
Eight pages across as many years does not seem like much for this masterpiece, especially as there are so many interesting recordings.
Looking back, most of those active in the initial discussions have moved on. Here is a link to an overview I produced including a few recordings, principally the Kubelik.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,699.msg14235.html#msg14235
Like the Kubelik, the disc I have just bought is live.
Giulini, Araiza, Fassbaender and the Vienna Philharmonic 2nd August 1987
Various sources, possibly prompted by comments in the booklet, suggest this is a very special occasion. Because Giulini was reluctant to work during the summer, he rarely appeared at the summer music festivals. So this is one of only three of Giulini's appearances at the Salzburg Festival. The singers replicate those from Berlin on the DG recording a few years prior. Giulini sanctioned this performance for release shortly before his death.
It is a very fine performance. The timings are similar to the Berlin recording. The singers are each in better voice, especially the tenor who sounds fuller and easier. To say this is a serious recording is possibly odd....none of the others have made me laugh, (except possibly Nagano with that fey sounding tenor he used). What I mean is that you do sense the sinking into the piece and the long journey. There is nothing flashy. For instance the long interlude in the final song sounds integrated, not a lot of drive or overt drama. But it is very effective. The singers are committed and really use the words. In this, Fassbaender is as usual ultra expressive and unafraid to push her tone to the max. She spits words out in fast passages. Her repeated ewigs at the end do not fade, they are firm, determined, and that also works exceptionally, as all about her, the world melts away.
The sound is fairly forward, for my taste it is really rather dry, though other opinions suggest the sound to be first rate. There are noticeable fluffs from the orchestra, but in the main they are clearly with Giulini.
If pushed, I prefer the live Kubelik that I link to above. His way with the score pulls me in more. Also I love the live recording conducted by Segun with Connolly and Spence. But this Giulini one does provide something special, he only conducted music that meant a lot to him. He dwelt on and with the music for a long time and yes, it was a special occasion.
I got the recording second hand for almost nothing, it comes from Orfeo packaged with a short accompaning disc containing the other piece from the concert, Mozart's Symphony no 40. I am not saying a word about that performance other than to say it is typical of late Giulini in this music, very, very slow.
Mike
Thanks for reviving this, Mike, and this Giulini recording sounds very special.
(PS, I have really enjoyed the handful of Fassbaender recordings I've heard, e.g., Mahler Das klagende Lied and Schoenberg Gurrelieder. Skimming through Amazon, I see she has a number of recital discs - haven't heard a single one! :-[)
--Bruce
Bruce, Do try to at least sample her Schubert Winterreise, gripping and remarkable. She reorders some of the songs to provide the narritave with more thrust. It is a somewhat discomforting journey, she moves through the songs arriving at derangement, it is that extreme. I like it being lifted right out of comfortable art-song territory. Also, there is Fassbaender and Janowitz in Bohn's live Cosi fan Tutti. Yet another performance that I would not be without.
Mike
I am glad to see this thread revived. The Klemperer Das Lied on the Vox label is among my top choices now. Just this morning a friend offered me a broadcast of a Karajan 1970 performance in which he has two tenors and a mezzo (Christa Ludwig)! I haven't heard this yet. That is an interesting concept.
The only time I saw Karajan was for a Das Lied in Edinburgh: Kolo and Ludwig. It must have been about 1973/4. I already knew the Klemperer and did not connect with the smooth way I felt that Karajan projected. I have probably about 18 or so versions of the Mahler and none of them by Karajan, much as I enjoy a deal of his other work.
Mike
Fassbaender is one of the most expressive singers I have heard, but some might consider her "over the top" (perfectably understandable). I highly recommend a Brahms Lieder recital that has been around on several labels (often very cheap), recorded in the early 80s and also (not quite as highly) a Berg/Mahler/Ogermann disc from the same vintage.
Right now I am listening (accidentally, before I saw these mentions of Fassbaender) to Fassbaender/Fi-Di in the Wunderhorn Lieder (cond. Zender, cpo, with a 9th symphony). I wonder, if I should get more of her Mahler!
As I a try to cut back on doublings (rather quintuplings or so), how highly would you recommend the DG or the Orfeo "Lied von der Erde", all things considered, Mike? And do you clearly prefer the live? (You write the singers are better live?! but the overall sound is not so good)
My favorite for the tenor (and maybe overall, but this is also imprinting) is Klemperer/EMI and I also like the live Kubelik/Kmentt/Baker mentioned a lot.
But I am afraid I have to at least hear Fassbaender in the alto part at some stage (except for the first song, the tenor songs hardly matter for me, the three alto songs clearly dominate the piece in my view).
She is a great favourite of mine, I have quite a few discs and sets that she graces; I have drawn the line at Italian opera sets that are in German. The Boskovsky Fledermaus allows her to provide the most sexy Count Orlovsky, that whole set is a joy, very much underrated.
Turning to DLvDE, she has a greater range of expression in the live version. There is a piano accompanied arrangement on CD, but even as a fan I find that her voice had loosened just a little to much for comfort by the time it was recorded.
She has recorded on one disc the major Mahler groups with Chailly, very fruity, well worth getting. I wish she had been recorded a bit earlier, but what a wealth of experience and authority she brings to them. Her singing on the Kleiber Tristan is another treasureable performance and there are certainly other reasons to grab that set.
There is a superb List recital on DG, probably available somewhere at a bargain. There is also a two disc set on EMI, as well as her wonderful Bach and other obvious items, there is an amazing Suicido fromGioconda, she sounds like a soprano.
Happy hunting Jo.
Mike
A new recording:
Simon Rattle, Stuart Skelton, Magdalena Kozena
Bayerischen Randfunks Symphonieorchester: live recording three days in Jan 18
I am not a particular fan of Rattle's work. I have very few of his recordings. Two which give me lasting pleasure are the Peleas et Melisande and his Berlin St Matthew Passion. A friend who is more enamoured of him has been raving about his live Mahler 9th performances. I like both singers here and therefore ordered this on its release date.
I suppose this is about version 20 in my collection. Anyway, what is it like?
The orchestral sound is excellent, forward and clear. Likewise the singers are well forward. I like distinctive Mahler and this seems very straight. That will make many happy, but I prefer to detect a vision rather than an efficient pass across the notes. I imagine I am being unfair. But it does not grab me as my favourites do. The speeds are fine, it is not too hectic or testing in song four, and the final song lasts 31.29. The orchestra sounds terrific with beautiful woodwind solos.
Where I am disappointed is, for example, in the extended orchestral areas of the final song. The likes of Klemperer, Giulini, Kubelik and Levine all take these passages and sink you into the journey, mini symphonies carry you along. But I don't feel nearly so engaged by Rattle. This goes for the piece generally.
I usually enjoy both singers, Skelton is an exciting, involved and involving singer, but here I think he sounds too stressed by the tessetura of his first two songs. One high note sounds like a hatpin was required to get him there. And as this was recorded over three days, I assume we are not simply stuck with some on the night problems. His last song brings out a lot of detail and is well negotiated. He has been well praised for live performances of this in London.
Kozena, it turns out, is the main reason for buying the disc. The voice is vibrant and very expressive and she is up for all the technical challenges. She does have a bit of a habit of leaning into notes when moving upward, eliding the notes. It sounds out of place. But the stained glass colours of her voice are such a pleasure. The last song goes well for her, but the final ewigs do not fade, the orchestra does not disintigrate. All terribly well thought through and professionally executed. But I am not on its wavelength. No doubt Grammophone will rave about it in due course, after all, it is Rattle.
Mike
Thank you. I saw that one and held back because it was Rattle. Now it definitely becomes low priority.
Quote from: JBS on September 10, 2018, 10:21:16 AM
Thank you. I saw that one and held back because it was Rattle. Now it definitely becomes low priority.
I have not seen any reviews of the disc, or the live concert. Others may give a very different impression. My own recommendation for a modern version would be
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Das-Lied-von-Erde/dp/B00EZWNIT4/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1536603841&sr=1-1&keywords=das+lied+von+der+erde+spence
Mike
Milos made me discover a recording I was unaware of: Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle, Dresden. Sung by Keith Lewis and Iris Vermilion. A truly transcendant interpretation. The Dresden orchestra's dark chocolate palette is strikingly handsome.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61W-2lGU%2BxL.jpg)
That is one I don't know. I like Keith Lewis a lot. Was the voice large enough? I think of him as being a very elegant singer. I was in a Berlioz Requiem where he was the soloist. Bertini was conducting and he was clearly experimenting to see how Lewis could cope with a slow tempo, then an even slower tempo. He sailed through it, wonderful breath control.
I will have a look at it, I tend to like Sinopoli in the late Romantic work that is on the cusp of 'modern'.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on September 10, 2018, 10:25:35 AM
I have not seen any reviews of the disc, or the live concert. Others may give a very different impression. My own recommendation for a modern version would be
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Das-Lied-von-Erde/dp/B00EZWNIT4/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1536603841&sr=1-1&keywords=das+lied+von+der+erde+spence
Mike
I put that one on the list...and in turn suggest Nott's recording with the Bambergers. Very different from the Kauffman vanity project which he also conducted.
Quote from: André on September 10, 2018, 12:25:07 PM
Milos made me discover a recording I was unaware of: Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle, Dresden. Sung by Keith Lewis and Iris Vermilion. A truly transcendant interpretation. The Dresden orchestra's dark chocolate palette is strikingly handsome.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61W-2lGU%2BxL.jpg)
I noticed the "Best 1000" on the cover. Is that disc one of the best 1000 produced by DG? Is there a list?
Quote from: André on September 10, 2018, 12:25:07 PM
Milos made me discover a recording I was unaware of: Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle, Dresden. Sung by Keith Lewis and Iris Vermilion. A truly transcendant interpretation. The Dresden orchestra's dark chocolate palette is strikingly handsome.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61W-2lGU%2BxL.jpg)
It is included both incarnations of Sinopoli's Mahler
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Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 10, 2018, 02:11:40 PM
I noticed the "Best 1000" on the cover. Is that disc one of the best 1000 produced by DG? Is there a list?
I have no idea. I just picked up that cover on the net. Mine does not have that 'best 1000' caption.
Quote from: JBS on September 10, 2018, 01:50:04 PM
I put that one on the list...and in turn suggest Nott's recording with the Bambergers. Very different from the Kauffman vanity project which he also conducted.
I have the Nott/Bamberger; initial impression was good but not outstanding. I have been listening to some of Nott's Mahler on Spotify and recently purchased Symphony No 3. I haven't had chance to listen to it but will report in due course.
I listened to the Kauffman recording on Spotify - it wasn't as bad as I expected it to be but I wish he had recorded it with a contralto, he was fine in the tenor songs.
The Nezet-Seguin version with the LPO is fine, I enjoy it and have listened to it several times though it had some lukewarm reviews.
The newness of Autumn threatens my bones with its coolness, much like the concerted warnings of harp, double bass and tam-tam in Der Abschied.
And so l awaken a thread which should ( imho ) never have slept, if only to provoke newer ( younger? ) perspectives. For this work, above all others, speaks to me with unique subtlety and clarity.
I've heard innumerable recordings, but only Klemperer, Haitink and von Karajan have left lasting impressions. Whether this proves their importance or my own limitations, l can't say.
( Usually, l just play through the work in my head, like pretty much everything else .)
Who else here would be happily caught today in this wondrous trap, this summit of one man's creative force?
Quote from: LKB on September 24, 2023, 08:19:17 AMThe newness of Autumn threatens my bones with its coolness, much like the concerted warnings of harp, double bass and tam-tam in Der Abschied.
And so l awaken a thread which should ( imho ) never have slept, if only to provoke newer ( younger? ) perspectives. For this work, above all others, speaks to me with unique subtlety and clarity.
I've heard innumerable recordings, but only Klemperer, Haitink and von Karajan have left lasting impressions. Whether this proves their importance or my own limitations, l can't say.
( Usually, l just play through the work in my head, like pretty much everything else .)
Who else here would be happily caught today in this wondrous trap, this summit of one man's creative force?
My favorite is Bruno Walter, have you heard that one?
I've been listening to various versions of this work lately - Klemperer, Bernstein, Walter, Haitink. I hear things I like in all of those but for me the version I own which I first heard stands up well - Merriman/Haefliger/Jochum. I think the it is still my preference. I like the energy in it and the tempo choices. He brings to the work a good mixture of spritely energy and gravitas.
My favorite is Bruno Walter/NY Phil. Have you heard that one? The recording is old, maybe from the 1950's but the interpretation is very atmospheric.
Quote from: relm1 on October 19, 2023, 05:50:37 AMMy favorite is Bruno Walter/NY Phil. Have you heard that one? The recording is old, maybe from the 1950's but the interpretation is very atmospheric.
Yes, you're right, its excellent.
My favorite version, the Schoenberg chamber arrangement, and this recording:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnsdsCRC/Screenshot-2023-10-19-at-9-22-36-AM.png)
My favourite Mahler work and one of my favvourites ever. I have heard the Scheonberg versieon live in a small Norwegian church and was very impreesed, but have never since heard it.
My 3 favorites are: Klemperer, Walter, Haitink.
Revisiting Mahler's "Das Lied Von Der Erde" with Julius Patzak and Kathleen Ferrier, conducted by Bruno Walter, was an incredible experience for me today. I hadn't previously appreciated what others had praised about this recording. I had, at times, considered it overrated. But today, that perception changed drastically.
What truly struck me about this recording is not only the superb quality of the performance but also the remarkable quality of the voices. Both Patzak and Ferrier displayed a wealth of nuances in their singing, creating a musical experience that is simply enchanting. The Vienna Philharmonic, particularly the winds, became like additional voices, and the strings vivid execution added an extra layer of depth to the music, lending the orchestra a remarkable bite and vivid colors that enhanced the overall sonic tapestry.
I now agree Kathleen Ferrier's dark contralto voice and Bruno Walter's deep Mahlerian sensibility complement each other perfectly, making their collaboration truly remarkable. The true contralto voice is something truly marvelous to listen to. Kathleen Ferrier's rendition is akin to melted chocolate—dark, deep, and incredibly rich. Contraltos are indeed a rarity, making them the most uncommon voice type to possess. It's a voice that carries a unique depth and resonance, and when channeled by a talent like Ferrier, it becomes a true gem in the world of music. Her contralto is a testament to the unparalleled beauty and emotional depth that this voice type can offer.
I was taken aback by how great this recording is, and I'm grateful that I chose to revisit it today. This experience serves as a reminder of the timeless magic that music can create and how it can transport us to a different time and place, even when the recording itself dates back to 1952.
Quote from: Leo K. on November 07, 2023, 11:18:16 AMRevisiting Mahler's "Das Lied Von Der Erde" with Julius Patzak and Kathleen Ferrier, conducted by Bruno Walter, was an incredible experience for me today. I hadn't previously appreciated what others had praised about this recording. I had, at times, considered it overrated. But today, that perception changed drastically.
What truly struck me about this recording is not only the superb quality of the performance but also the remarkable quality of the voices. Both Patzak and Ferrier displayed a wealth of nuances in their singing, creating a musical experience that is simply enchanting. The Vienna Philharmonic, particularly the winds, became like additional voices, and the strings vivid execution added an extra layer of depth to the music, lending the orchestra a remarkable bite and vivid colors that enhanced the overall sonic tapestry.
I now agree Kathleen Ferrier's dark contralto voice and Bruno Walter's deep Mahlerian sensibility complement each other perfectly, making their collaboration truly remarkable. The true contralto voice is something truly marvelous to listen to. Kathleen Ferrier's rendition is akin to melted chocolate—dark, deep, and incredibly rich. Contraltos are indeed a rarity, making them the most uncommon voice type to possess. It's a voice that carries a unique depth and resonance, and when channeled by a talent like Ferrier, it becomes a true gem in the world of music. Her contralto is a testament to the unparalleled beauty and emotional depth that this voice type can offer.
I was taken aback by how great this recording is, and I'm grateful that I chose to revisit it today. This experience serves as a reminder of the timeless magic that music can create and how it can transport us to a different time and place, even when the recording itself dates back to 1952.
I have some recordings of her--LP recitals (I think only on LP?); however, I'll double-check to see if I own this one. Yes, her voice was quite special and uncommon. I remember reading some stories about (if I'm recalling correctly) that she was still performing though suffering from breast cancer and performed during WWII for the troops? Sorry, but it's been a while since I've read about her life.
PD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Ferrier - later career section
Quote from: Scion7 on November 07, 2023, 04:25:50 PMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Ferrier - later career section
Thanks. Hard to read. :'(
PD