GMG Classical Music Forum

Martinů Symphony Round-Up!

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Choose your favorite cycle. You're allowed to vote for two of your favorite complete cycles.

I'm terribly sorry to all who have voted so far. I have decided to set the votes back to zero as I had a horrible error of judgement. Please vote again.

Voted for Mr. B on Onyx and Neumann, though I do like the warmer sound of the Thomson.  I sold the Valek discs on. 

However, I have not heard the Fagen, Jarvi, or the new Meister.  They are all on the streaming services, though.  I note that Tidal lists the Valek set as "Symfonies".

I shouldn't vote since I've only heard three of the cycles (Thomson, Järvi, Neumann). But I will vote. Of those three, Järvi ranks first, Neumann second.

Sarge

I voted for the only one I currently own. Much as I admire the Martinu symphonies, I've never been tempted to make extensive comparisons. I do know that my favourites are not to be found in a complete cycle: # 4 with Martin Turnovsky and # 6 with Charles Munch.

I listened to the 30 second samples of Meister on Amazon. I liked what I heard. This is bad...

Listening to Meister's 3 on Tidal.  Good so far ::)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 09, 2017, 11:16:26 AM
I shouldn't vote since I've only heard three of the cycles (Thomson, Järvi, Neumann). But I will vote. Of those three, Järvi ranks first, Neumann second.

Sarge

:o You and I actually agree on something (not the first time this has happened of course), we both prefer Järvi. 8)

Upon revisitation of Thomson's Martinu, I listened to his performance of the 3rd symphony and found myself rather disappointed. One of my main problems with his entire cycle, now that I've got much more experience with these symphonies and knowing what I like from a performance, is he pushes the music too hard. He hits the climaxes with great power, but it's almost just too much. The audio quality is great of course, so no complaints there. Thomson seems to view each work the same and while his 3rd nailed the climatic moments, the lyrical moments seemed to be swept to the wayside. It's always amusing how tastes can change in interpretations over the years. My second vote would go to Neumann/CzPO on Supraphon now.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 09, 2017, 05:45:49 PM
:o You and I actually agree on something....

Surely one of the signs of the apocalypse  ;D

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2017, 06:23:14 AM
Surely one of the signs of the apocalypse  ;D

Sarge

Indeed and I also agree with you about Neumann. :o The world has now ended. :D

Quote from: André on November 09, 2017, 11:23:36 AM
I voted for the only one I currently own. Much as I admire the Martinu symphonies, I've never been tempted to make extensive comparisons. I do know that my favourites are not to be found in a complete cycle: # 4 with Martin Turnovsky and # 6 with Charles Munch.

I'm going to have to try and find a recording of Munch's 6th. It's difficult to try and obtain in a single release or so I've heard. How did you acquire your version?

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2017, 07:44:05 PM
I'm going to have to try and find a recording of Munch's 6th. It's difficult to try and obtain in a single release or so I've heard. How did you acquire your version?

I got my copy from Japan, and HMV still lists it.  You get an extra coupling over the download, the Menotti Violin Concerto:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Martinu-1890-1959_000000000020547/item_Martinu-Fantaisies-Symphoniques-Piston-Symphony-No-6-Etc_1214757

It's also available for download.  From Presto, for example:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8176244--piston-symphony-no-6-martinu-fantaisies-symphoniques

I don't know if the re-masterings are different.

Quote from: Daverz on November 13, 2017, 08:11:37 PM
I got my copy from Japan, and HMV still lists it.  You get an extra coupling over the download, the Menotti Violin Concerto:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Martinu-1890-1959_000000000020547/item_Martinu-Fantaisies-Symphoniques-Piston-Symphony-No-6-Etc_1214757

It's also available for download.  From Presto, for example:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8176244--piston-symphony-no-6-martinu-fantaisies-symphoniques

I don't know if the re-masterings are different.

Thanks a lot, Daverz. Do you think that performance you linked from above is the same one found in this 2-CD set?

[asin]B00006IGIO[/asin]

It's alright, Daverz, I was able to snag a used copy for around $10 (+ shipping) of the Japanese reissue. 8)

I have not heard Valek or Fagen. I would rank the cycles I have heard as follows:

Bělohlávek CzPO (No.1 on Chandos + 3-6 on Supraphon)—ideal combination of conductor, orchestra & (in Supraphon) audio engineer; best rhythmic feel of any Martinů cycle on disc
Bělohlávek BBCSO, very good orchestral balance w piano given its due prominence, but lyrical passages often not given their due & sound is not as good as Supraphon
Rozhdestvensky (2, 3, 5 & 6), because I'm a communist or something
Järvi, a bit too bombastic & with some orchestral details lost in the mix, but definitely exciting
Neumann, which I consider the most balanced cycle in re tempo, rhythmic clarity & lyrical expression (but the orchestration is often not clear enough, the rhythms sometimes lack the necessary snap & the playing is not always up to snuff).
Meister, maybe too laid-back & lyrical with not enough rhythmic snap, but brings out subtler elements in Martinů's style well, the clearest orchestral balance of any cycle is a plus
Thomson, sumptuous and Wagnerian but sometimes too hard driven and superficial, definitely overdoes the bombast to the point where e.g. the end of No.1 sounds like the orchestra has completely fallen apart thanks to an unnecessary accelerando

None of the cycles that I know are bad, to be honest. I'm glad to have the ones I own and kinda want to buy the ones I don't.

Also obviously worth mentioning are the usual suspects: Munch no.6, Ančerl no.5 and 6, Šejna no.3 (mono), Turnovsky no.4

My Build-a-Cycle would be
1 - Bělohlávek CzPO
2 - Rozhdestvensky (Bělohlávek BBCSO as backup)
3 - Rozhdestvensky
4 - Neumann (or Turnovsky, in a pinch)
5 - Meister
6 - Bělohlávek CzPO (or Järvi)

Since you mentioned it, amw, Fagen's cycle is one I haven't heard nor do I find myself drawn to it either. There's something about the cycle that screams unpolished and poor orchestral playing. I don't mean to jump to conclusions about the merits of Fagen's cycle, but these are the reasons why I haven't investigated any of his Martinu recordings. I'd love to hear from a member here who has heard this cycle and could shed some light on it for those who haven't heard it.

Are there really so few Martinu Complete Symphonies cycles that have been recorded? It isn't like he is some really obscure composer whose music is only very rarely performed..................................................

Although I have only heard Neumann's recordings so I can't really vote on this one anyway

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2017, 09:48:42 PM
Since you mentioned it, amw, Fagen's cycle is one I haven't heard nor do I find myself drawn to it either. There's something about the cycle that screams unpolished and poor orchestral playing. I don't mean to jump to conclusions about the merits of Fagen's cycle, but these are the reasons why I haven't investigated any of his Martinu recordings. I'd love to hear from a member here who has heard this cycle and could shed some light on it for those who haven't heard it.

I've heard some of Fagen! The engineering is more of a concern than the orchestra, and Fagen is a pretty good conductor (see his piano concerto cycle with Koukl). I prefer the sound of even the much older Neumann, so I don't listen to Fagen often, but when I do the feeling is typically, "Oh, yeah, these are fine too."

Would rank him above Meister overall for interpretation, and perhaps Jarvi.

Quote from: jessop on November 13, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
Are there really so few Martinu Complete Symphonies cycles that have been recorded? It isn't like he is some really obscure composer whose music is only very rarely performed..................................................

Yes, really - and there are tons of Martinů works that haven't been recorded at all!

I listened to one of my test movements (finale of No.1) as performed by Fagen and the orchestra seemed alright. I have nothing against the Ukraine NSO, who have a well blended corporate sound in the mold of Austro-German orchestras even if they may not be 100% virtuosi, and who make a pretty good showing against the competition in e.g. Prokofiev, Borodin, Piston, Khachaturian. The rhythmic impetus seemed a bit anaemic, but Fagen does play the movement slower than many other performances (over 10 minutes) which may contribute to that feeling. The slow, lyrical passages were very fine. I'm not going to buy it immediately but it seems ok.

Quote from: Brian on November 14, 2017, 04:49:44 AM
I've heard some of Fagen! The engineering is more of a concern than the orchestra, and Fagen is a pretty good conductor (see his piano concerto cycle with Koukl). I prefer the sound of even the much older Neumann, so I don't listen to Fagen often, but when I do the feeling is typically, "Oh, yeah, these are fine too."

Would rank him above Meister overall for interpretation, and perhaps Jarvi.

Considering I love the Jarvi cycle both interpretatively and sonically, I'm not sure how I would feel about Fagen's cycle. Thanks for the feedback.

Quote from: amw on November 14, 2017, 05:18:20 AM
I listened to one of my test movements (finale of No.1) as performed by Fagen and the orchestra seemed alright. I have nothing against the Ukraine NSO, who have a well blended corporate sound in the mold of Austro-German orchestras even if they may not be 100% virtuosi, and who make a pretty good showing against the competition in e.g. Prokofiev, Borodin, Piston, Khachaturian. The rhythmic impetus seemed a bit anaemic, but Fagen does play the movement slower than many other performances (over 10 minutes) which may contribute to that feeling. The slow, lyrical passages were very fine. I'm not going to buy it immediately but it seems ok.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like hearty endorsement, so I'll pass. ;) Thanks for taking the time to listen and report back.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2017, 09:48:42 PM
Since you mentioned it, amw, Fagen's cycle is one I haven't heard nor do I find myself drawn to it either. There's something about the cycle that screams unpolished and poor orchestral playing. I don't mean to jump to conclusions about the merits of Fagen's cycle, but these are the reasons why I haven't investigated any of his Martinu recordings. I'd love to hear from a member here who has heard this cycle and could shed some light on it for those who haven't heard it.

I used to have the Thomson cycle as well as the Fagen. I kept only the latter (plus a few individual performances). I find Fagen perfectly attubed to the idiom. Orchestral infelicities (if there are any) are of very little concern to me in this repertoire and, in any case, I doubt I'd be able to spot them, lest they be of the horrendous type. To me, in slavic repertoire the spirit  counts more than architectonic splendour and perfection of execution: IOW the opposite of Brahms and Bruckner. But that's just me... ;D

Quote from: amw on November 13, 2017, 09:19:36 PM

Rozhdestvensky (2, 3, 5 & 6), because I'm a communist or something

I've been curious about these. Rozh is known for promoting composers who don't get much play in Russia (Nielsen, Vaughan Williams, Bruckner) and I suppose Martinu falls into that category. His performances of such composers often sound a bit different from the norm (and sometimes rather odd).

Quote from: André on November 14, 2017, 08:06:14 AM
To me, in slavic repertoire the spirit  counts more than architectonic splendour and perfection of execution: IOW the opposite of Brahms and Bruckner. But that's just me... ;D

I don't really think of Martinu as Slavic repertoire so much as cosmopolitan (with French influence being especially strong), although of course there are a lot of native Czech references in his work.

Quote from: André on November 14, 2017, 08:06:14 AM
I used to have the Thomson cycle as well as the Fagen. I kept only the latter (plus a few individual performances). I find Fagen perfectly attubed to the idiom. Orchestral infelicities (if there are any) are of very little concern to me in this repertoire and, in any case, I doubt I'd be able to spot them, lest they be of the horrendous type. To me, in slavic repertoire the spirit  counts more than architectonic splendour and perfection of execution: IOW the opposite of Brahms and Bruckner. But that's just me... ;D

As Archaic Torso pointed out, there's much more to Martinu than the Slavic influence, although that is certainly important. Expressionism, Impressionism, and Neoclassicism were all fixtures of his evolving style. There's no doubt a Moravian-Bohemian folk influence is in his music, but this helped give his melodies an earthy texture. If this makes any sense? As Torso said, a cosmopolitan composer, but one that never lost sight of his homeland and, in fact, on many occasions yearned for it through his music.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 14, 2017, 06:11:01 PM
As Archaic Torso pointed out, there's much more to Martinu than the Slavic influence, although that is certainly important. Expressionism, Impressionism, and Neoclassicism were all fixtures of his evolving style. There's no doubt a Moravian-Bohemian folk influence is in his music, but this helped give his melodies an earthy texture. If this makes any sense? As Torso said, a cosmopolitan composer, but one that never lost sight of his homeland and, in fact, on many occasions yearned for it through his music.

I've recently discovered his early 'Czech Rhapsody' (1918) - a great work, inspired by the forthcoming independence of Czechoslovakia - it's very interesting to hear some of his early works.
:)

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2017, 08:17:12 PM
Thanks a lot, Daverz. Do you think that performance you linked from above is the same one found in this 2-CD set?

[asin]B00006IGIO[/asin]

Yes, they are the same, though I haven't compared the sound quality.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2017, 08:25:08 PM
It's alright, Daverz, I was able to snag a used copy for around $10 (+ shipping) of the Japanese reissue. 8)

Ah, good, that also gets you the excellent Piston recording which is not in the Great Conductors set (which is still worth it for the Beethoven 9).

Quote from: Daverz on November 16, 2017, 08:51:57 AM
Ah, good, that also gets you the excellent Piston recording which is not in the Great Conductors set (which is still worth it for the Beethoven 9).

Indeed. I enjoy the Piston work as well, but obviously the Martinu was the main attraction for me. :)